"Owning a Frenchie is not for the faint of heart."
December 17, 2015 2:41 PM Subscribe
WHY FRENCH BULLDOGS (AND THEIR OWNERS) ARE THE WORST: A RANT
Generations of unwise inbreeding to no good end, far beyond what would be needed to keep their signature looks, have left these cartoon critters with low resistance to illness and allergies. Physically handicapped at birth (by cesarean, because the heads are, like the owners' pride, inflated) with squashed-in faces that are freakishly flat, they face serious challenges in performing some of any mammal's basic functions — like getting enough oxygen and keeping their bodies at a safe temperature.
French Bulldogs are NYC’s Most Popular Dog
Generations of unwise inbreeding to no good end, far beyond what would be needed to keep their signature looks, have left these cartoon critters with low resistance to illness and allergies. Physically handicapped at birth (by cesarean, because the heads are, like the owners' pride, inflated) with squashed-in faces that are freakishly flat, they face serious challenges in performing some of any mammal's basic functions — like getting enough oxygen and keeping their bodies at a safe temperature.
French Bulldogs are NYC’s Most Popular Dog
this is the thread where we post cute pix of frenchies right
posted by murphy slaw at 2:58 PM on December 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 2:58 PM on December 17, 2015 [15 favorites]
"We're not talking one or two little farts per week, either — we're talking about a constant miasma cloud of evil smelling gas that will hang over top of your Frenchie pretty much constantly."
True story.
posted by louche mustachio at 3:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
True story.
posted by louche mustachio at 3:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
Read the comments
A first time for everything.
posted by andoatnp at 3:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
A first time for everything.
posted by andoatnp at 3:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
(on not googling enough before posting: maybe Tito is a boston terrier, but he's still a cute and smushfaced mouth-breather so the video stands AFAIC)
posted by sparklemotion at 3:01 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by sparklemotion at 3:01 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Read the comments, they're hilarious.
the author of the article is so very not mad, it's funny that you think he's mad because actually he's just sitting here laughing about how funny it is you think he's mad
posted by murphy slaw at 3:13 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
the author of the article is so very not mad, it's funny that you think he's mad because actually he's just sitting here laughing about how funny it is you think he's mad
posted by murphy slaw at 3:13 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
its true when i walked around LIC near the new builds like a cheap miami-on-the-hudson but with more AXE all the corporate junior-incubi/succubi drones had them it was like stepford wives but with dogs
posted by lalochezia at 3:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 3:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
People who get Frenchies really want to get Bostons; they just don't realize it.
posted by BibiRose at 3:22 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 3:22 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Quest for status, indeed. That's not to say I think the message is wrong, but this kind of smells of deliberately targeting one breed for promotional rather than animal welfare purposes, and meh. I'm pretty heavily against buying animals (paying shelter fees being a very different thing) and I don't actually see why you write a book about how the whole enterprise is bad but then write this article targeting only French bulldogs unless you're just trying to go viral, as the kids say.
posted by Sequence at 3:29 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sequence at 3:29 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's interesting the lengths at which humans have selectively bred the strangest (and unhealthiest) traits into dogs, to the point that they no longer resemble their original form. The traits humans find aesthetically pleasing have been foisted on to another species. I like to wonder how humans would come out looking if the shoe were on the other foot.
In contrast, clearly cats have always been perfect from the start; there is nary a difference between common domesticated cats and the species they're derived from, the African wildcat.
Yes that's right, dog owners, bask in my smugness!
posted by picklenickle at 3:37 PM on December 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
In contrast, clearly cats have always been perfect from the start; there is nary a difference between common domesticated cats and the species they're derived from, the African wildcat.
Yes that's right, dog owners, bask in my smugness!
posted by picklenickle at 3:37 PM on December 17, 2015 [29 favorites]
My Boston Gordon is about 1/4 Frenchie...just enough for the cuteness factor but without the wheezing and grunting (much).
posted by rocket88 at 3:41 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by rocket88 at 3:41 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Does the pressure to deform proud breeds like dachshunds and alsatians come from the kennel clubs and their competition criteria?
posted by No Robots at 3:41 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by No Robots at 3:41 PM on December 17, 2015
There is an online UCLA class on Science Religion Magic where the Instructor (don't know her exact job status) brings her bulldog to the lectures and uses it as a visual aid (e.g. she discusses the Platonic form of the Perfect Bulldog). I would not recommend watching all the lectures unless you are particularly interested in that subject but it definetely falls into the category of something I had never seen done before.
Here is a link to lecture one. The bulldog is named Norton von Snortin'.
posted by bukvich at 3:46 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Here is a link to lecture one. The bulldog is named Norton von Snortin'.
posted by bukvich at 3:46 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Becoming expert on this very special breed's many torments, and the litany of secret elixirs and special handling required, is almost as rewarding as imparting this arcane erudition slowly, carefully, and in graphic detail to the hired help.
This touched on something I never realized but makes perfect sense: the high maintenance nature of a French bulldog is a sign of status: owning one shows that you have the leisure time and budget to take care of one and can afford the vet bills.
posted by deanc at 3:49 PM on December 17, 2015 [23 favorites]
This touched on something I never realized but makes perfect sense: the high maintenance nature of a French bulldog is a sign of status: owning one shows that you have the leisure time and budget to take care of one and can afford the vet bills.
posted by deanc at 3:49 PM on December 17, 2015 [23 favorites]
e.g. she discusses the Platonic form of the Perfect Bulldog
For those who don't have time for the full lecture, the answer is: dodecahedron.
posted by Wolfdog at 3:55 PM on December 17, 2015 [42 favorites]
For those who don't have time for the full lecture, the answer is: dodecahedron.
posted by Wolfdog at 3:55 PM on December 17, 2015 [42 favorites]
For those who don't have time for the full lecture, the answer is: dodecahedron.
posted by Wolfdog at 3:55 PM on December 17 [−][!]
I don't know how you managed to not make an eponysterical comment here, but somehow you pulled it off. Bravo?
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 3:55 PM on December 17 [−][!]
I don't know how you managed to not make an eponysterical comment here, but somehow you pulled it off. Bravo?
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
In contrast, clearly cats have always been perfect from the start; there is nary a difference between common domesticated cats and the species they're derived from, the African wildcat.
Let's see: Persian, Sphinx, Manx, Munchkin, Scottish Fold...
posted by murphy slaw at 4:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Let's see: Persian, Sphinx, Manx, Munchkin, Scottish Fold...
posted by murphy slaw at 4:03 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
Flat noses are a deformity in dogs and breeding for them intentionally is arguably animal cruelty. Aside from all the other issues with the purebred dog industrial complex.
posted by bracems at 4:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by bracems at 4:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [27 favorites]
My son, when he finished college, got a job and got married he told me he wanted a frenchie. I told him they're windy.
"How windy?"
"Massively windy. Jetstream levels of wind. Le Petomane windy, only without the sphincter control."
They had a baby instead.
posted by Floydd at 4:18 PM on December 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
"How windy?"
"Massively windy. Jetstream levels of wind. Le Petomane windy, only without the sphincter control."
They had a baby instead.
posted by Floydd at 4:18 PM on December 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
I have yet to meet a single modern day purebreed dog that doesn't have 12,000 health problems tbh. but yes, frenchies are tiny adorable nightmares. mine was allergic to all life on earth (ok maybe just all life in nyc) and also had hilarribly explosive anal gland problems. what i would have GIVEN for something as simple as heinous farts, my god.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
The best part about owning a purebred dog is the papers you get showing that his dad and great granddad are the same dog.
posted by phunniemee at 4:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [51 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 4:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [51 favorites]
Everyone knows that dog owners are lame, and cat owners are awesome. Just not Siamese...those cats suck.
See? Anybody can write a dog-related article and FLAME ON!
posted by Chuffy at 4:24 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
See? Anybody can write a dog-related article and FLAME ON!
posted by Chuffy at 4:24 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh hey I just got this picture back from the pet store today. Meet Ziggy Pop.
posted by Windigo at 4:26 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Windigo at 4:26 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
For the record, since I guess we're doing this, Ziggy has zero health issues, zero allergies, and is happy and healthy a dog I've ever known.
posted by Windigo at 4:28 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Windigo at 4:28 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah but I was there when Ziggy farted once so.
posted by phunniemee at 4:29 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 4:29 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
That wasn't a fart. That was an angel kiss. From his butt.
posted by Windigo at 4:30 PM on December 17, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by Windigo at 4:30 PM on December 17, 2015 [28 favorites]
I have yet to meet a single modern day purebreed dog that doesn't have 12,000 health problems
My mom has 3 pugs that are 10yrs old and pretty healthy, other than 2 of them being fat as all hell. Although those 2 were from a backyard breeder person, without papers so how "pure" they are is up for debate. She got one because it was so "cute and smushyface", her words, then my sister convinced her to go back and get the black one too. And the other one is half pekingese so he doesn't count, they got him 6 months later when someone else convinced her to take him in.
They snort all the time and she makes sure not to leave them out too long in the summer, but they've never needed surgery or anything crazy and act just like normal little dogs. But they do seem to be right on the edge of breed-worthiness, if their stupid looking faces were any flatter I would start to worry.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:32 PM on December 17, 2015
My mom has 3 pugs that are 10yrs old and pretty healthy, other than 2 of them being fat as all hell. Although those 2 were from a backyard breeder person, without papers so how "pure" they are is up for debate. She got one because it was so "cute and smushyface", her words, then my sister convinced her to go back and get the black one too. And the other one is half pekingese so he doesn't count, they got him 6 months later when someone else convinced her to take him in.
They snort all the time and she makes sure not to leave them out too long in the summer, but they've never needed surgery or anything crazy and act just like normal little dogs. But they do seem to be right on the edge of breed-worthiness, if their stupid looking faces were any flatter I would start to worry.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:32 PM on December 17, 2015
My Onslow(as a puppy). I love frenchies and I am smart enough to understand all the issues that come with pure breeds and blah blah blah. I love him and wouldn't trade him for anything.
This was really just an excuse to post a picture.
posted by PugAchev at 4:32 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
This was really just an excuse to post a picture.
posted by PugAchev at 4:32 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
also everybody farts. and Onslow is super healthy and happy and just great.
posted by PugAchev at 4:34 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by PugAchev at 4:34 PM on December 17, 2015
I took my Boston to get her acl tear fixed. The vet tech said, "Don't feel bad; even normal dogs have this problem."
posted by BibiRose at 4:48 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 4:48 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
Why French Bulldogs (and Their Owners) Are the Worst: A Rant
They ruin all the fields, bark at my little kids, eat my food, smell like wet ass, and shit everywhere.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:52 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
They ruin all the fields, bark at my little kids, eat my food, smell like wet ass, and shit everywhere.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:52 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
The best part about owning a purebred dog is the papers you get showing that his dad and great granddad are the same dog.
We have a pug, and the breeder who we got her from described her pedigree as "nice and tight". It was not as reassuring as I assume she thought it was.
posted by Hutch at 4:57 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
We have a pug, and the breeder who we got her from described her pedigree as "nice and tight". It was not as reassuring as I assume she thought it was.
posted by Hutch at 4:57 PM on December 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
I have yet to meet a single modern day purebreed dog that doesn't have 12,000 health problems tbh.
That's a pretty broad statement, maybe you don't get out and meet many purebreds. My girl is in perfect health-- great coat, teeth, joints, heart, everything. She is a trail dog and on her best day so far she ran 17 miles with us and she is only just 18 mos old. I'm really proud of her and I feed her and exercise her so that she stays in top condition.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:03 PM on December 17, 2015
I understand there are many legitimate reasons why people breed or purchase dogs, and I grew up with wonderful purebred dogs, but there's really no better feeling than when your mutt of unknown origin, who could have ended up starved to death along a highway or put down in a rural shelter, gazes into your eyes after you give her a nice scratch-heavy belly rub and you can just feel how doggishly grateful she is. There are so so so so so many wonderful but unlucky dogs out there who need homes.
posted by sallybrown at 5:11 PM on December 17, 2015 [40 favorites]
posted by sallybrown at 5:11 PM on December 17, 2015 [40 favorites]
That's a pretty broad statement, maybe you don't get out and meet many purebreds.
We're having a mixer this Saturday, you should totally come!
posted by shakespeherian at 5:28 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
We're having a mixer this Saturday, you should totally come!
posted by shakespeherian at 5:28 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Relevant: https://youtu.be/waLxMl6K3zA?t=33
posted by Green Winnebago at 5:44 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Green Winnebago at 5:44 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why Anyone Who Says Out Loud That Any Thing Or People Are The Worst Are In Fact The Worst: A Weary Observation.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:46 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:46 PM on December 17, 2015 [13 favorites]
There's really no better feeling than when your mutt of unknown origin, who could have ended up starved to death along a highway or put down in a rural shelter, gazes into your eyes after you give her a nice scratch-heavy belly rub and you can just feel how doggishly grateful she is.
It is not just mutts who end up in shelters and in rescue. We foster for a rescue and in all the time we've done this, we've only had one mixed-breed dog. All the rest have been pure-bred dogs in need.
Somehow we have ended up as the Brachycephalic Dog Repository (aka The Itty Bitty Boxer Committee), because I love smushyfaced dogs but I wish they didn't exist and I'd never buy one. None of them can breathe. All of ours get their own personal fans all summer. They go on a "night walk only" protocol to keep them out of the heat. They cannot deal with the respiratory stress of being overweight; one used to randomly stop breathing until she lost weight, and could never be left alone, ever. They snore horrendously (although our current crew isn't too bad!)
All of the dogs we have are the cast-offs of bad breeding. They have bad ears, bad jaws, bad airways, bad hearts, bad eyes. They've all had surgery to correct entropion. One is on €1200 of drugs annually. She has IVD but she's probably die of heart failure, or cancer, before the IVD means we have to put her down.
They are all well and happy and dopey and wonderful but these are just dogs that should not exist. The cost of achieving the breed standard is just too high.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [26 favorites]
It is not just mutts who end up in shelters and in rescue. We foster for a rescue and in all the time we've done this, we've only had one mixed-breed dog. All the rest have been pure-bred dogs in need.
Somehow we have ended up as the Brachycephalic Dog Repository (aka The Itty Bitty Boxer Committee), because I love smushyfaced dogs but I wish they didn't exist and I'd never buy one. None of them can breathe. All of ours get their own personal fans all summer. They go on a "night walk only" protocol to keep them out of the heat. They cannot deal with the respiratory stress of being overweight; one used to randomly stop breathing until she lost weight, and could never be left alone, ever. They snore horrendously (although our current crew isn't too bad!)
All of the dogs we have are the cast-offs of bad breeding. They have bad ears, bad jaws, bad airways, bad hearts, bad eyes. They've all had surgery to correct entropion. One is on €1200 of drugs annually. She has IVD but she's probably die of heart failure, or cancer, before the IVD means we have to put her down.
They are all well and happy and dopey and wonderful but these are just dogs that should not exist. The cost of achieving the breed standard is just too high.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:00 PM on December 17, 2015 [26 favorites]
Reading this article gave me the frustrating feeling of agreeing with the sentiment that people probably shouldn't buy French bulldogs from breeders, but hating the article itself. It's so awfully written! The point of reading rants about other people who aren't you is to enjoy it!
Ugh @ author.
posted by Eyeveex at 6:04 PM on December 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Ugh @ author.
posted by Eyeveex at 6:04 PM on December 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
The traits humans find aesthetically pleasing have been foisted on to another species. I like to wonder how humans would come out looking if the shoe were on the other foot.
Yeah, right--like our cat/toxo hyperbeing overlords haven't been selectively breeding humans to do their heavy lifting since the time of the pharaohs...
There's really a staggering number of dog breeds like this, that can barely hold it together enough to stay alive due to crazy selective breeding. And why? All so we can have companions. Miserable, unnatural companions.
posted by saulgoodman at 6:33 PM on December 17, 2015
Yeah, right--like our cat/toxo hyperbeing overlords haven't been selectively breeding humans to do their heavy lifting since the time of the pharaohs...
There's really a staggering number of dog breeds like this, that can barely hold it together enough to stay alive due to crazy selective breeding. And why? All so we can have companions. Miserable, unnatural companions.
posted by saulgoodman at 6:33 PM on December 17, 2015
I have yet to meet a single modern day purebreed dog that doesn't have 12,000 health problems tbh.
~~~
That's a pretty broad statement, maybe you don't get out and meet many purebreds. My girl is in perfect health-- great coat, teeth, joints, heart, everything. She is a trail dog and on her best day so far she ran 17 miles with us and she is only just 18 mos old. I'm really proud of her and I feed her and exercise her so that she stays in top condition.
I'm no dog expert but I believe having a healthy purebred at 18 months isn't that rare, it's later in life that issues crop up more frequently in purebreds.
posted by JauntyFedora at 7:24 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
~~~
That's a pretty broad statement, maybe you don't get out and meet many purebreds. My girl is in perfect health-- great coat, teeth, joints, heart, everything. She is a trail dog and on her best day so far she ran 17 miles with us and she is only just 18 mos old. I'm really proud of her and I feed her and exercise her so that she stays in top condition.
I'm no dog expert but I believe having a healthy purebred at 18 months isn't that rare, it's later in life that issues crop up more frequently in purebreds.
posted by JauntyFedora at 7:24 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
The author of this article failed to do even basic research. A recent article in Aeon clearly explained why aquariums and their owners were the worst.
posted by mark k at 7:30 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by mark k at 7:30 PM on December 17, 2015
It seems that people who "love animals" are not always people who have empathy for said animals. As a result, we get stuff like selective breeding for cosmetic traits, which seems kind of like modern-day foot binding to me.
posted by davejh at 7:30 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by davejh at 7:30 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Purebreds without problems? Try a greyhound: preferably an ex-racing greyhound.
Zero-to-low maintenance, insanely adorable, lazier than you would imagine is possible. 20-30 minute walk once a day, a couple of small diameter crazy loops, and the rest of their time is spent lolling around the house like something out of Gatsby.
posted by pjm at 7:38 PM on December 17, 2015 [21 favorites]
Zero-to-low maintenance, insanely adorable, lazier than you would imagine is possible. 20-30 minute walk once a day, a couple of small diameter crazy loops, and the rest of their time is spent lolling around the house like something out of Gatsby.
posted by pjm at 7:38 PM on December 17, 2015 [21 favorites]
Try a greyhound: preferably an ex-racing greyhound.
As a side bonus, there is also a constant supply of them at greyhound rescues, so the rescues aren't incredibly snotty like some rescues are. "Do you both work during the day? Well, if you do I guess you won't love your dog enough. Oh, you live in an apartment? No yard for the dog? That's a shame, all dogs need yards. Maybe you should consider a fish."
posted by mightygodking at 7:44 PM on December 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
As a side bonus, there is also a constant supply of them at greyhound rescues, so the rescues aren't incredibly snotty like some rescues are. "Do you both work during the day? Well, if you do I guess you won't love your dog enough. Oh, you live in an apartment? No yard for the dog? That's a shame, all dogs need yards. Maybe you should consider a fish."
posted by mightygodking at 7:44 PM on December 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've also heard that greyhounds are great apartment dogs - hard for me to believe but maybe?
posted by kat518 at 7:54 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kat518 at 7:54 PM on December 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have a pure bred black German Shepherd and he's fine. He is not from a North American line though. His parents are from actual working dogs from Eastern Europe so he doesn't have any of the 'show' bred traits (like hip and back end shape) that are common in many NA shepherds and non of the health issues that are common because of this type of breeding.
He's an awesome dog, a total teddy bear for the most part but I've had to do some pretty extensive training with him because his working traits and protective instincts that this breed was originally bred for are strong. He needs a firm hand especially when he is around people he doesn't know. He's totally fine once he knows that they're not going to hurt me or anyone else he considers family. Then he's all, oh hi, will you love me now? I'm just going to try to cuddle and sit in your lap. He's definitely NOT the type of dog for someone who doesn't know what they're doing though or understand what his working traits express themselves.
My she mutt rules him though. It's pretty funny at times to see him be all 'Yes Ma'am, oh sorry m'am' Sure I'll just go to my corner now..."
posted by Jalliah at 7:58 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
He's an awesome dog, a total teddy bear for the most part but I've had to do some pretty extensive training with him because his working traits and protective instincts that this breed was originally bred for are strong. He needs a firm hand especially when he is around people he doesn't know. He's totally fine once he knows that they're not going to hurt me or anyone else he considers family. Then he's all, oh hi, will you love me now? I'm just going to try to cuddle and sit in your lap. He's definitely NOT the type of dog for someone who doesn't know what they're doing though or understand what his working traits express themselves.
My she mutt rules him though. It's pretty funny at times to see him be all 'Yes Ma'am, oh sorry m'am' Sure I'll just go to my corner now..."
posted by Jalliah at 7:58 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've also heard that greyhounds are great apartment dogs - hard for me to believe but maybe?
Quite true, because of the aforementioned being lazy as balls. Remember: they're bred to be sprinters. They want to go out once a day and run like hell, and then go back to the couch.
posted by mightygodking at 7:59 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
Quite true, because of the aforementioned being lazy as balls. Remember: they're bred to be sprinters. They want to go out once a day and run like hell, and then go back to the couch.
posted by mightygodking at 7:59 PM on December 17, 2015 [9 favorites]
That Aeon aquarium article is great, mark k. I used to dream about aquariums full of dead or dying fish all the time, especially after a few kind of traumatic experiences of rescuing fish, including some guppies destined to die in an acquaintance's overheated apartment, some goldfish a roommate basically left for dead, and some large koi and goldfish I netted out of a scummy back-yard pond that was drying up.
I actually chose my current apartment in part because it didn't have the same type of restrictions on aquariums that another place I visited did, but I ended up avoiding aquariums after having all those dreams. Instead, I used to play aquarium video games like Nemo's Reef and Tap Fish, but I had to stop doing that, too, because it just fed the nightmares. Tap Fish is especially bad for this, because if you don't keep up with your fish, they die and float at the top of the tank just like real fish. Anyway, yeah, I love fish, and I love the water, and I grew up with aquariums, but I can't do it anymore.
posted by limeonaire at 8:08 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I actually chose my current apartment in part because it didn't have the same type of restrictions on aquariums that another place I visited did, but I ended up avoiding aquariums after having all those dreams. Instead, I used to play aquarium video games like Nemo's Reef and Tap Fish, but I had to stop doing that, too, because it just fed the nightmares. Tap Fish is especially bad for this, because if you don't keep up with your fish, they die and float at the top of the tank just like real fish. Anyway, yeah, I love fish, and I love the water, and I grew up with aquariums, but I can't do it anymore.
posted by limeonaire at 8:08 PM on December 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
As an example right now he's keeping watch as I'm reading Metafilter.
posted by Jalliah at 8:15 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Jalliah at 8:15 PM on December 17, 2015 [11 favorites]
I've also heard that greyhounds are great apartment dogs - hard for me to believe but maybe?
A colleague of mine is involved in greyhound rescue, and she describes greyhounds as being cats, basically--their life consists of lounging around and expecting humans to wait on them, interspersed with occasional ZOOMs. (They're also extremely quiet dogs, usually, which is a pragmatic consideration for apartment living.)
posted by thomas j wise at 8:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
A colleague of mine is involved in greyhound rescue, and she describes greyhounds as being cats, basically--their life consists of lounging around and expecting humans to wait on them, interspersed with occasional ZOOMs. (They're also extremely quiet dogs, usually, which is a pragmatic consideration for apartment living.)
posted by thomas j wise at 8:17 PM on December 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
Dogs. So many breeds I detest. So many things wrong with dog breeding. Never hesitate to talk to/ interact with every dog on the street...
Dogs.
posted by Windopaene at 8:32 PM on December 17, 2015
Dogs.
posted by Windopaene at 8:32 PM on December 17, 2015
A friend of mine adopted a retired racing greyhound. He described her as "being so lazy she only wakes up to yawn."
posted by KathrynT at 8:40 PM on December 17, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 8:40 PM on December 17, 2015 [19 favorites]
A friend of mine adopted a retired racing greyhound. He described her as "being so lazy she only wakes up to yawn."
I talked to someone at a greyhound rescue and she referred to them as living statues.
posted by andoatnp at 8:59 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
I talked to someone at a greyhound rescue and she referred to them as living statues.
posted by andoatnp at 8:59 PM on December 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
Is this the thread where I confess how acutely aware I am that every day I feed this tiny-headed little evolutionary throwback is a day that I didn't divert pet money toward actual food for a theoretical human child to eat?
'Cause I keep making that choice, and am still not really sure about where that leaves the old conscience.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:06 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
'Cause I keep making that choice, and am still not really sure about where that leaves the old conscience.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:06 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Honestly if i had to pick "dogs most likely purchased as a fashion accessory by knobheads" they still wouldn't outrank bull terriers.
I swear, like 9/10 people i've met who had a bull terrier were the kind of people who, for whatever the current interior design trend was at the time, noguchi coffee table sort of assholes with perfectly manicured apartments. The kind of people who act like bohemian artists but somehow have huge spacious tv-show-character apartments with tons of expensive vintage furniture and nick nacks, and usually audio gear, and a $5000 macintosh desktop setup.
Seriously i've met more than 5 people like this.
If that shifted to french bulldogs i wouldn't be completely surprised, but they're also just not as intentionally-unusual looking.
I have yet to meet a single modern day purebreed dog that doesn't have 12,000 health problems tbh.
Yep.
Then again i'm also one of those "fuck purebred dogs" people. All the cutest, best, and healthiest dogs anyone i know has had were mutts. My old pembroke corgi from a Well Respected Breeder had a bunch of tiresome health problems which upon even the most cursory google are super common for the breed. I don't even remember how many thousands in vet bills we ended up with.
Whereas my old roommates ??? aussie/corgi/several other things mutt(obligatory pic) was like the toyota of dogs. At the vet exactly once to get neutered and get some shots. 1-2 checkups since then, always a clean bill of health. It's been like 6 years and he's still healthy and fluffy as fuck.
posted by emptythought at 9:14 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I swear, like 9/10 people i've met who had a bull terrier were the kind of people who, for whatever the current interior design trend was at the time, noguchi coffee table sort of assholes with perfectly manicured apartments. The kind of people who act like bohemian artists but somehow have huge spacious tv-show-character apartments with tons of expensive vintage furniture and nick nacks, and usually audio gear, and a $5000 macintosh desktop setup.
Seriously i've met more than 5 people like this.
If that shifted to french bulldogs i wouldn't be completely surprised, but they're also just not as intentionally-unusual looking.
I have yet to meet a single modern day purebreed dog that doesn't have 12,000 health problems tbh.
Yep.
Then again i'm also one of those "fuck purebred dogs" people. All the cutest, best, and healthiest dogs anyone i know has had were mutts. My old pembroke corgi from a Well Respected Breeder had a bunch of tiresome health problems which upon even the most cursory google are super common for the breed. I don't even remember how many thousands in vet bills we ended up with.
Whereas my old roommates ??? aussie/corgi/several other things mutt(obligatory pic) was like the toyota of dogs. At the vet exactly once to get neutered and get some shots. 1-2 checkups since then, always a clean bill of health. It's been like 6 years and he's still healthy and fluffy as fuck.
posted by emptythought at 9:14 PM on December 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I wanted a Frenchie for years, but never lived in a place where I could have a dog. Then I bought a house, and presto! The neighborhood SPCA had the perfect Peke.
So yes, smooshyface dog, but she's a rescue, and she's obviously mixed with something: no health issues, able to run like a lunatic for hours with her best friend, the Shepherd/Rottie/Huskie mix my friend has, and in all ways the perfect dog.
Meanwhile my neighbor up the street has a Frenchie who is a sad and fragile wee beastie. Rethinking my desires.
posted by jrochest at 9:31 PM on December 17, 2015
So yes, smooshyface dog, but she's a rescue, and she's obviously mixed with something: no health issues, able to run like a lunatic for hours with her best friend, the Shepherd/Rottie/Huskie mix my friend has, and in all ways the perfect dog.
Meanwhile my neighbor up the street has a Frenchie who is a sad and fragile wee beastie. Rethinking my desires.
posted by jrochest at 9:31 PM on December 17, 2015
Am I the only one who has a robust frenchie then? He's the opposite of fragile, he's like a little tank. The biggest issue with him is simply not taking him out for strenuous activity when it's really hot out. Maybe it's that his body is not exaggerated/overbred - I've noticed his face is not as smooshed as some frenchies you see, and his head is smaller. He's not as short legged and barrel chested, either.
posted by Windigo at 10:00 PM on December 17, 2015
posted by Windigo at 10:00 PM on December 17, 2015
Ah, bulldogs, French, English and American... If only for them alone, the person who invents Beano for dogs is going to die a billionaire.
posted by y2karl at 10:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 10:21 PM on December 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
People who don't get dogs, simply don't get dogs. I grew up with GSDs, had one as a nanny dog, in fact--the kind you never see in the states anymore, fine boned and pure white on black.
Now my whole family just does rescue dogs.
Personally, I have three: a shi tzu mix, a border collie (the real kind, not puppy mill), and a hound dog of unknown extraction.
The thing is, dogs have personalities. You need to know what you're getting into.
posted by syncope at 12:29 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now my whole family just does rescue dogs.
Personally, I have three: a shi tzu mix, a border collie (the real kind, not puppy mill), and a hound dog of unknown extraction.
The thing is, dogs have personalities. You need to know what you're getting into.
posted by syncope at 12:29 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Am I the only one who has a robust frenchie then?
From crudely skimming only the last figure of the journal article Localization of canine brachycephaly using an across breed mapping approach via the more approachable The Brachycephalic syndrome - New knowledge emphasizing the importance and responsibility of the dog show judge. by Dr Göran Bodegård, MD. Prof. Åke Hedhammar, DVM.
I think errors in a short region of generic code give rise to shortened skull and muzzle, and individual dogs may have slightly different sets of error.
Not knowing genetics, so I'm guessing:
If the healthy street dog has:
Muzzle and Skull
and short-head dog A has the errors
Mugzly and Skall
and short-head dog B has
Buzzle and Skulp
and a dog AB_kid from the litter A&B is
Bugzly and Skalp,
then all those errors are make dog AB_kid really fucked up even if A and B are fairly functional. Or dog AB_kid got a double dose of the g in Mugzly from inbreeding, luck, etc, so even if g is recessive there's no healthy dominant z around to make sure things work out ...
Maybe? (Not geneist.)
Similarly with the spine deformations and leg deformations I didn't have the heart to skim and then handwave about, inbreeding and mixing error segments from both parents can't be good. Inbred wolves won't be healthy, and if you start with a population that already has deformations and inbreed them ...
I'm starting to think even breeders who try to be responsible are participating in a broken system that inevitably leads to suffering, if they're chasing an ideal that includes deformities in the airways or spine and so on. Even if every one of their dogs is somewhat healthy, some of the dogs from other kennels certainly won't be, due to breeding practices and the complexities of dangerous genes in populations.
Meanwhile, terriers with normal head shapes are healthy and happy.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:01 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
From crudely skimming only the last figure of the journal article Localization of canine brachycephaly using an across breed mapping approach via the more approachable The Brachycephalic syndrome - New knowledge emphasizing the importance and responsibility of the dog show judge. by Dr Göran Bodegård, MD. Prof. Åke Hedhammar, DVM.
I think errors in a short region of generic code give rise to shortened skull and muzzle, and individual dogs may have slightly different sets of error.
Not knowing genetics, so I'm guessing:
If the healthy street dog has:
Muzzle and Skull
and short-head dog A has the errors
Mugzly and Skall
and short-head dog B has
Buzzle and Skulp
and a dog AB_kid from the litter A&B is
Bugzly and Skalp,
then all those errors are make dog AB_kid really fucked up even if A and B are fairly functional. Or dog AB_kid got a double dose of the g in Mugzly from inbreeding, luck, etc, so even if g is recessive there's no healthy dominant z around to make sure things work out ...
Maybe? (Not geneist.)
Similarly with the spine deformations and leg deformations I didn't have the heart to skim and then handwave about, inbreeding and mixing error segments from both parents can't be good. Inbred wolves won't be healthy, and if you start with a population that already has deformations and inbreed them ...
I'm starting to think even breeders who try to be responsible are participating in a broken system that inevitably leads to suffering, if they're chasing an ideal that includes deformities in the airways or spine and so on. Even if every one of their dogs is somewhat healthy, some of the dogs from other kennels certainly won't be, due to breeding practices and the complexities of dangerous genes in populations.
Meanwhile, terriers with normal head shapes are healthy and happy.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:01 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's been like 6 years and he's still healthy and fluffy as fuck.
To be fair, the only reason my dog has chronic ear infections is because he likes the taste of his own earwax and won't keep his damn toes out of there.
Also he likes the taste of his ear medicine so the cycle just repeats itself.
I think this is less because he is a purebred and more because he's an idiot.
posted by phunniemee at 3:26 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
To be fair, the only reason my dog has chronic ear infections is because he likes the taste of his own earwax and won't keep his damn toes out of there.
Also he likes the taste of his ear medicine so the cycle just repeats itself.
I think this is less because he is a purebred and more because he's an idiot.
posted by phunniemee at 3:26 AM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I used to work with a young, dapper dude, who asked my opinion WRT whether he should get a French bulldog puppy.
I told him he was insane.
The next week he came to work with a purebred Frenchie puppy.
It's a really good thing my former workplace was almost obscenely tolerant, because that thing, two years later, still goes to work every day and STILL pisses everywhere. His farts are so goddamned chumpy you could carve them. He is a disgusting, adorable pig dog with near-limitless health problems.
Meanwhile, I spend every day reading the Misanthropic Shiba trying to convince myself that, maybe one day, I could be the type of person who could have both a stubborn, dainty, maddening shiba inu and an actual adult life.
And so the cycle continues.
posted by nerdfish at 4:48 AM on December 18, 2015
I told him he was insane.
The next week he came to work with a purebred Frenchie puppy.
It's a really good thing my former workplace was almost obscenely tolerant, because that thing, two years later, still goes to work every day and STILL pisses everywhere. His farts are so goddamned chumpy you could carve them. He is a disgusting, adorable pig dog with near-limitless health problems.
Meanwhile, I spend every day reading the Misanthropic Shiba trying to convince myself that, maybe one day, I could be the type of person who could have both a stubborn, dainty, maddening shiba inu and an actual adult life.
And so the cycle continues.
posted by nerdfish at 4:48 AM on December 18, 2015
I HAVE ALL THE SYMPTOMS!
I am probably a Frenchie.
posted by srboisvert at 5:58 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am probably a Frenchie.
posted by srboisvert at 5:58 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've had a vet and a neurologist tell me that brachycephalic dogs have sweet dispositions specifically because of the altered shape of their brains. The article I've linked is about the shape and not about its effect on disposition; I haven't been able to Google up a discussion of the latter. And I don't know how much people project traits onto flat-faced dogs simply because they look so human. I definitely had a different and closer relationship with my Boston than with our other dogs, but there may have been some confirmation bias at work; people who get a small human appearing dog are probably looking for a different kind of bonding.
I would totally get another Boston; there are tons available for rescue since they had a surge in popularity several years ago.
posted by BibiRose at 6:35 AM on December 18, 2015
I would totally get another Boston; there are tons available for rescue since they had a surge in popularity several years ago.
posted by BibiRose at 6:35 AM on December 18, 2015
Dumb, related question: since July, has there been an upswing in Frenchies named Lafayette?
posted by pxe2000 at 6:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by pxe2000 at 6:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Since someone brought up greyhounds... Greyhounds are so wonderful but such weird creatures. Athletic but fragile, legs so thin you can see through their skin in parts, dumb and goofy yet refined and elegant looking, fast but lazy.
It's true that 99.9% of greyhounds owned as pets are former racers. There is something to be said for dogs that are bred for function over form: greyhounds are pretty healthy as purebreds go. For example, there's essentially no hip dysplasia in the breed at all; unusual for a large breed.
Of course, there are issues in the racing industry that produces them, although opinions differ about the extent of the problems. I've seen the behind-the-scenes of a (now defunct) track and it seemed like the dogs lived pretty good working dog lives. But I've heard some of the lower quality tracks aren't as great. A lot of greyhound adopters are super strongly opposed to the racing industry, but idk, there are so many horrible backyard breeders and abusers in the pet dog industry that I have a hard time with the argument that racing should be completely banned. (Totally down with strict regulation, of course, for both industries.)
But the "should it be banned" argument doesn't really matter anyway, because the economics of betting on dog races is such that the industry may not exist at all soon enough. The selfish part of me is sad for the day when I won't be able to adopt a retired racer. There are AKC greyhounds but only a few hundred greyhound puppies a year are registered with the AKC in the whole country; and I couldn't bring myself to buy a dog from a breeder anyway.
I bring this all up just because the working dog purebreds vs show/just for looks or pet ownership purebreds is an interesting distinction to me.
posted by misskaz at 7:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's true that 99.9% of greyhounds owned as pets are former racers. There is something to be said for dogs that are bred for function over form: greyhounds are pretty healthy as purebreds go. For example, there's essentially no hip dysplasia in the breed at all; unusual for a large breed.
Of course, there are issues in the racing industry that produces them, although opinions differ about the extent of the problems. I've seen the behind-the-scenes of a (now defunct) track and it seemed like the dogs lived pretty good working dog lives. But I've heard some of the lower quality tracks aren't as great. A lot of greyhound adopters are super strongly opposed to the racing industry, but idk, there are so many horrible backyard breeders and abusers in the pet dog industry that I have a hard time with the argument that racing should be completely banned. (Totally down with strict regulation, of course, for both industries.)
But the "should it be banned" argument doesn't really matter anyway, because the economics of betting on dog races is such that the industry may not exist at all soon enough. The selfish part of me is sad for the day when I won't be able to adopt a retired racer. There are AKC greyhounds but only a few hundred greyhound puppies a year are registered with the AKC in the whole country; and I couldn't bring myself to buy a dog from a breeder anyway.
I bring this all up just because the working dog purebreds vs show/just for looks or pet ownership purebreds is an interesting distinction to me.
posted by misskaz at 7:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
This thread is making me want a greyhound, because apparently I am one. I have one good burst of energy in me a day, also! The rest of the time, naps are very appealing. We'd get along great.
posted by emjaybee at 7:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 7:28 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Am I the only one who has a robust frenchie then?
My Gertie is stupidly athletic for a frenchie. She goes for 5k runs with my wife three times a week and will walk as far as you want as often as you want. She can jump three feet straight up. She has musculature like a miniature pit bull and not an ounce of fat on her. She had some issues with food allergies but once we got those sorted out she's been healthy as a horse. (Fixing her food helped with the outrageous flatulence too.)
That said, she snores like a cement mixer and we have to be careful about her overheating in high summer. I love her to death but if I was going to do it over again I would probably get a shelter dog or a rescue. We were on a tight timeline when we were looking for a dog (my wife was newly pregnant and we wanted to have the dog acclimated before the baby came) and a reputable breeder had pups ready to go home so we jumped on it.
She's really too silly to exist but I can't imagine my life without her now.
posted by murphy slaw at 7:53 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
My Gertie is stupidly athletic for a frenchie. She goes for 5k runs with my wife three times a week and will walk as far as you want as often as you want. She can jump three feet straight up. She has musculature like a miniature pit bull and not an ounce of fat on her. She had some issues with food allergies but once we got those sorted out she's been healthy as a horse. (Fixing her food helped with the outrageous flatulence too.)
That said, she snores like a cement mixer and we have to be careful about her overheating in high summer. I love her to death but if I was going to do it over again I would probably get a shelter dog or a rescue. We were on a tight timeline when we were looking for a dog (my wife was newly pregnant and we wanted to have the dog acclimated before the baby came) and a reputable breeder had pups ready to go home so we jumped on it.
She's really too silly to exist but I can't imagine my life without her now.
posted by murphy slaw at 7:53 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think they're adorable and I get why people would want such adorable dogs. I don't think they're selfish or anything for getting one.
However I grew up with a purebred dog of another breed that was absolutely wonderful but ended up with so many health problems at the end of her life as a result of dumb human over-breeding. I just can't get behind the idea of purebred pets anymore after that experience.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:01 AM on December 18, 2015
However I grew up with a purebred dog of another breed that was absolutely wonderful but ended up with so many health problems at the end of her life as a result of dumb human over-breeding. I just can't get behind the idea of purebred pets anymore after that experience.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:01 AM on December 18, 2015
This guy comes off as a real asshole in the comments. Even though I agree with him that breeding has caused a lot of suffering.
posted by agregoli at 8:05 AM on December 18, 2015
posted by agregoli at 8:05 AM on December 18, 2015
Vet friend tells me that clinics look at most purebreds and see dollar signs - especially among French and English bulldogs.
That's one vet in one city with one opinion. He's an unabashed mutt fan.
posted by Thistledown at 8:16 AM on December 18, 2015
That's one vet in one city with one opinion. He's an unabashed mutt fan.
posted by Thistledown at 8:16 AM on December 18, 2015
I bring this all up just because the working dog purebreds vs show/just for looks or pet ownership purebreds is an interesting distinction to me.
Dog people, specifically agility/rally/obedience/field trial dog people, are really aware of this distinction. If you go to a really big dog show, you'll see a clear distinction between the dogs bred for conformation (the beauty pageant side of things) and the dogs bred for work or obedience.
A conformation Golden Retriever looks like a creature built by Disney: all soft fluffy golden hair, square head, and soulful brown eyes. Whereas an obedience dog can look like someone found it in the garbage can, all weedy and scraggly, with hardly any tail or leg-fluff to speak of, with a narrow head and too tall or long body. (My sister has one of the few conformation-quality Goldens competing in agility and rally right now: she looks seriously out of place among all the mixed breeds and backyard-bred dogs.)
One of the advantages I hear people talk about with purebreds is "you know what you're getting", which I think is true but only in the most general sense. Every dog is different.
posted by suelac at 8:20 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Dog people, specifically agility/rally/obedience/field trial dog people, are really aware of this distinction. If you go to a really big dog show, you'll see a clear distinction between the dogs bred for conformation (the beauty pageant side of things) and the dogs bred for work or obedience.
A conformation Golden Retriever looks like a creature built by Disney: all soft fluffy golden hair, square head, and soulful brown eyes. Whereas an obedience dog can look like someone found it in the garbage can, all weedy and scraggly, with hardly any tail or leg-fluff to speak of, with a narrow head and too tall or long body. (My sister has one of the few conformation-quality Goldens competing in agility and rally right now: she looks seriously out of place among all the mixed breeds and backyard-bred dogs.)
One of the advantages I hear people talk about with purebreds is "you know what you're getting", which I think is true but only in the most general sense. Every dog is different.
posted by suelac at 8:20 AM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
We ended up with a frenchie because my husband is allergic to any shaggy coat - not even long hair, just shaggy. He also was nervous/scared of large dogs (he came from a cat household and had never had a dog, and the neighbors apparently had large aggressive dogs that scared him as a child). I wanted a small dog that I could pick up if needed, because there are a lot of unleashed dogs in our neighborhood. But I didn't want a tiny yappy dog, and we had to be concerned about noise in general as we live in a flat with neighbors. We have a yard, but aren't extremely active (we're not runners). We like to go on long meandering walks, instead. So after much thought and research we decided a frenchie best fit our lifestyle, and that we were prepared to deal with any of the special issues frenchies can be prone to. We then looked for over a year until we felt comfortable with where to get one.
And we have been terribly lucky, because he is so healthy and fit and robust and has not shown any issues that the breed is prone to. And he's so smart - too smart for his own good, really. He picks up tricks and lessons amazingly fast, but because he's a frenchie he's also stubborn as hell. His favorite things in the world are to chase balls, chase the largest dogs at the dog park, and splash around in the waves at the lake.
I made peace long ago that some people will judge us because we have a frenchie. They will think we're propagating a breed that shouldn't exist, or that we're faddish dog owners, or snooty show-offs. I can't do anything about that. All I know is that Ziggy brings more happiness to my life than I ever thought possible. He is the BEST DOGGY.
posted by Windigo at 8:23 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
And we have been terribly lucky, because he is so healthy and fit and robust and has not shown any issues that the breed is prone to. And he's so smart - too smart for his own good, really. He picks up tricks and lessons amazingly fast, but because he's a frenchie he's also stubborn as hell. His favorite things in the world are to chase balls, chase the largest dogs at the dog park, and splash around in the waves at the lake.
I made peace long ago that some people will judge us because we have a frenchie. They will think we're propagating a breed that shouldn't exist, or that we're faddish dog owners, or snooty show-offs. I can't do anything about that. All I know is that Ziggy brings more happiness to my life than I ever thought possible. He is the BEST DOGGY.
posted by Windigo at 8:23 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Man I'm about to get all moralizing and I hate it and I'm sorry in advance but I'm honestly kind of disappointed with (some of) this thread, I mean I get it, I love dogs, we all love dogs, everyone especially loves their dog but I feel like a lot of people are tossing aside a really important and terrible issue (no help from the author on this one, granted).
The 'well my purebred dog is healthy' stuff doesn't do much for me, a couple of other people have touched on why. I mean that's absolutely great for you, but a statement like that completely disregards how getting your dog may have resulted in x number of other purebred puppies with terrible health, may have involved 'cosmetic culling' of other puppies, etc. and on average, purebred dogs (including 'designer' mixes of two purebred strains) do have more, serious health issues than mixed breeds. With serious health issues they're more likely to get them and they're more likely to develop them earlier in life. I think it's important not to forget or minimize any of that.
Struggling to breathe and having neurological problems that cause constant pain... like. That's terrible, and largely preventable. By mixing in a little bit of something else or even just retroactively selectively breeding purebreds for traits that AREN'T inherently damaging or painful. This isn't even getting into issues of disreputable breeders and puppy mills which, because of these trends, skew towards attempting to create purebreds (or 'designer' breeds), or pass off non-purebreds as purebreds, which still results in dogs suffering. I mean, look at the dog in that link. It's adorable and as an added bonus can breathe.
I'm not saying anyone should discount your experience with your pet but I am saying there might be collateral damage.
"[...] researchers like Famula and Jerold Bell, a geneticist at the Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, note that breeding practices are greatly influenced by the puppy buyers who Bell believes are largely ignorant about genetic issues. "
Like the retro mops in that link above, we can do something about this if we just acknowledge it's a problem.
I dunno man... the purebred situation is pretty terrible and it needs to change; people derailing the conversation about how their dog is fine is kind of frustrating. I mean it's great that you guys are all knowledgeable/responsible owners but that, honestly, is kinda derailing a discussion of 'this is an actual problem' and 'how can we fix this'.
admittedly the author of the actual article did a pretty shit job with his tone tho
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 8:44 AM on December 18, 2015 [18 favorites]
The 'well my purebred dog is healthy' stuff doesn't do much for me, a couple of other people have touched on why. I mean that's absolutely great for you, but a statement like that completely disregards how getting your dog may have resulted in x number of other purebred puppies with terrible health, may have involved 'cosmetic culling' of other puppies, etc. and on average, purebred dogs (including 'designer' mixes of two purebred strains) do have more, serious health issues than mixed breeds. With serious health issues they're more likely to get them and they're more likely to develop them earlier in life. I think it's important not to forget or minimize any of that.
Struggling to breathe and having neurological problems that cause constant pain... like. That's terrible, and largely preventable. By mixing in a little bit of something else or even just retroactively selectively breeding purebreds for traits that AREN'T inherently damaging or painful. This isn't even getting into issues of disreputable breeders and puppy mills which, because of these trends, skew towards attempting to create purebreds (or 'designer' breeds), or pass off non-purebreds as purebreds, which still results in dogs suffering. I mean, look at the dog in that link. It's adorable and as an added bonus can breathe.
I'm not saying anyone should discount your experience with your pet but I am saying there might be collateral damage.
"[...] researchers like Famula and Jerold Bell, a geneticist at the Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, note that breeding practices are greatly influenced by the puppy buyers who Bell believes are largely ignorant about genetic issues. "
Like the retro mops in that link above, we can do something about this if we just acknowledge it's a problem.
I dunno man... the purebred situation is pretty terrible and it needs to change; people derailing the conversation about how their dog is fine is kind of frustrating. I mean it's great that you guys are all knowledgeable/responsible owners but that, honestly, is kinda derailing a discussion of 'this is an actual problem' and 'how can we fix this'.
admittedly the author of the actual article did a pretty shit job with his tone tho
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 8:44 AM on December 18, 2015 [18 favorites]
Retired Greyhounds are the very best town dogs ever. Infinitely superior in all possible ways. There is no debate in this. Unlike the argument you'll have over who has rights to the sofa. But there again, the greyhound wins.
posted by DangerIsMyMiddleName at 8:55 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by DangerIsMyMiddleName at 8:55 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
is kinda derailing a discussion of 'this is an actual problem' and 'how can we fix this'.
That's not what the thread is about though. It's an aspect of it, sure, but the article linked is a guy going on a rant about how they are the worst dogs, the unhealthiest, and their owners are terrible, too. Of course any mefites who have a frenchie or a relatable breed are going to chime in. That is not derailing. That is comparing experiences.
If a breed is not going to vanish - and face it, frenchies are not going to stop being bred - I think the only feasible thing to do is to advocate dogs bred for health and not for exaggerated lumpy cuteness. Going on rants about them and/or moralizing, that doesn't help the breed. I keep mentioning my dog's health because it's a counterpoint that if bred carefully for healthy traits (I can promise you there was no 'cosmetic culling' for example), the breed is not doomed. There are frenchies bred that conform to the earlier standards, but yes, you have to research and advocate for a healthier french bulldog.
posted by Windigo at 9:16 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's not what the thread is about though. It's an aspect of it, sure, but the article linked is a guy going on a rant about how they are the worst dogs, the unhealthiest, and their owners are terrible, too. Of course any mefites who have a frenchie or a relatable breed are going to chime in. That is not derailing. That is comparing experiences.
If a breed is not going to vanish - and face it, frenchies are not going to stop being bred - I think the only feasible thing to do is to advocate dogs bred for health and not for exaggerated lumpy cuteness. Going on rants about them and/or moralizing, that doesn't help the breed. I keep mentioning my dog's health because it's a counterpoint that if bred carefully for healthy traits (I can promise you there was no 'cosmetic culling' for example), the breed is not doomed. There are frenchies bred that conform to the earlier standards, but yes, you have to research and advocate for a healthier french bulldog.
posted by Windigo at 9:16 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
The best part about owning a purebred dog is the papers you get showing that his dad and great granddad are the same dog.
"First of all, Dude, you don't have an ex. Secondly, it's a fucking show dog with fucking papers. You can't board it. It gets upset. Its hair falls out. Fucking dog has fucking papers — OVER THE LINE!"
posted by theorique at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
"First of all, Dude, you don't have an ex. Secondly, it's a fucking show dog with fucking papers. You can't board it. It gets upset. Its hair falls out. Fucking dog has fucking papers — OVER THE LINE!"
posted by theorique at 9:26 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
alright. but if that's not what the actual article is about then why is this literally in the first section:
"Many times have I, and other canine critics, fended off online attacks from the dread English Bulldog Mafia for reminding them their breed is among the sickest on the market and suggesting maybe they should stop buying these poor, wretched creatures. Extremely well organized and bullheaded, bully apologists are quick to mob websites and comment sections with testimonials averring that their picture-perfect clones, miraculously, haven't seen a sick day in their lives."
yeah, he's being a dick to owners too, but that quote is still the point which he uses as a platform upon which to pontificate about and-I-quote "generations of unwise breeding" and "sick and deformed canine monsters" etc.
if that's not what this thread is about, well, that's defined by the users I guess, but tossing my voice into the pile is that 'not my dog' is a derail of the actual topic. so, agree to disagree I guess.
I'm not sure where the thing I added into the discussion belongs, if not here. like it's pretty much exactly what this is about.
I addressed that other bit in my post as well and "advocated dogs bred for health and not exaggerated lumpy cuteness". we can have healthy purebreds. like I said. i mean not to go kicking down the door again but I feel like these are all really good illustrations of how much we've changed these dogs even in just 100 years
all of the dogs in those pics are still purebred so even to just get rid of some of the physical issues (not being able to breathe, skull too small for the brain, deformed spine, etc) we could just retroactively breed for healthier physical traits (not getting into neurological stuff, I dunno if fixing some of the physical would help with that, and it probably wouldn't help with anything like the cancer issue goldens have). they'd still even be purebred. what's not to like about that?
but anyway. "frenchies are not going to stop being bred", fine, but let's not put our heads in the sand. none of the things that are gonna help are gonna happen until people start saying to breeders (either with their mouths or their money) 'hey this is really not cool and we should change it' and that starts with not deflecting it (and yes, some comments were completely deflecting it, like I tried to clarify when I said some comments in here were disappointing) even in casual conversation, and acknowledging it, which starts with knowing about it in the first place
like, sorry. but I guess we might just disagree on a best course of action.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 9:29 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Many times have I, and other canine critics, fended off online attacks from the dread English Bulldog Mafia for reminding them their breed is among the sickest on the market and suggesting maybe they should stop buying these poor, wretched creatures. Extremely well organized and bullheaded, bully apologists are quick to mob websites and comment sections with testimonials averring that their picture-perfect clones, miraculously, haven't seen a sick day in their lives."
yeah, he's being a dick to owners too, but that quote is still the point which he uses as a platform upon which to pontificate about and-I-quote "generations of unwise breeding" and "sick and deformed canine monsters" etc.
if that's not what this thread is about, well, that's defined by the users I guess, but tossing my voice into the pile is that 'not my dog' is a derail of the actual topic. so, agree to disagree I guess.
I'm not sure where the thing I added into the discussion belongs, if not here. like it's pretty much exactly what this is about.
I addressed that other bit in my post as well and "advocated dogs bred for health and not exaggerated lumpy cuteness". we can have healthy purebreds. like I said. i mean not to go kicking down the door again but I feel like these are all really good illustrations of how much we've changed these dogs even in just 100 years
all of the dogs in those pics are still purebred so even to just get rid of some of the physical issues (not being able to breathe, skull too small for the brain, deformed spine, etc) we could just retroactively breed for healthier physical traits (not getting into neurological stuff, I dunno if fixing some of the physical would help with that, and it probably wouldn't help with anything like the cancer issue goldens have). they'd still even be purebred. what's not to like about that?
but anyway. "frenchies are not going to stop being bred", fine, but let's not put our heads in the sand. none of the things that are gonna help are gonna happen until people start saying to breeders (either with their mouths or their money) 'hey this is really not cool and we should change it' and that starts with not deflecting it (and yes, some comments were completely deflecting it, like I tried to clarify when I said some comments in here were disappointing) even in casual conversation, and acknowledging it, which starts with knowing about it in the first place
like, sorry. but I guess we might just disagree on a best course of action.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 9:29 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Having had both good (healthy) purebreds and terribly inbred ones, my attitude now is: rescue or mutts only. I can't take the guilt of supporting the purebred industry; the dogs who are born with defects often suffer a lot, not to mention the breeders who are simply abusive puppy-mill types.
posted by emjaybee at 9:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:36 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
kinda derailing a discussion of 'this is an actual problem' and 'how can we fix this'
I had a longer and angrier comment but I'm trying to be more GCU and less ROU so I'll just say that:
This thread took an early tone that was quite hostile to breeds in general, people who own purebred dogs, and breeders. I expect that part of why you are only seeing basically meek statements of "But my dog is healthy and nice" is that that is all people feel safe and comfortable offering.
In other settings I'd be happy to talk about some of the things you raise, but honestly I don't want to wade through twenty people picking me part in some lawyerly interrogation or exploding something I say into some barely-recognizable straw man of itself, so I'm going to shut up after this.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:27 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I had a longer and angrier comment but I'm trying to be more GCU and less ROU so I'll just say that:
This thread took an early tone that was quite hostile to breeds in general, people who own purebred dogs, and breeders. I expect that part of why you are only seeing basically meek statements of "But my dog is healthy and nice" is that that is all people feel safe and comfortable offering.
In other settings I'd be happy to talk about some of the things you raise, but honestly I don't want to wade through twenty people picking me part in some lawyerly interrogation or exploding something I say into some barely-recognizable straw man of itself, so I'm going to shut up after this.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:27 AM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
My niece and her husband had a Frenchie who needed expensive surgery, and was then euthanized when it turned out he needed still more expensive surgery and, etc. Of course, they promptly bought another expensive Frenchie. Neither dog has seemed terribly affectionate or fun to play with, and they are impossible to housetrain, don't get along well with the little kids, etc. I'm much happier to have a shelter dog who may very well be purebred, or not, but is also pretty healthy and pretty well-mannered. So very many dogs are killed at shelters; among my friends it's more fashionable to have a 'rescue' and in this instance, I'm happy to be au courant. Anybody who intentionally breeds dogs that have heritable diseases is committing animal cruelty.
posted by theora55 at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 10:51 AM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
I bring this all up just because the working dog purebreds vs show/just for looks or pet ownership purebreds is an interesting distinction to me.
Yeah, I grew up with a pure-bred labrador retriever, pedigreed and all, but her pedigree was as a hunting dog, not a conformance dog. Her pedigree on her dam's side was extremely impressive, full of awards and all kinds of things. (On her sire's side, not so much, he was kind of a no-account scrub dog from a line of workaday, perfectly acceptable hunting retrievers. The most special thing about him, as it turned out, was his ability to jump a 6' fence when he smelled a dog in heat.) She would have been laughed out of any AKC dog show in the world, but she was a great goddamn dog, healthy and loyal, kind and loving, smart and brave, just all around wonderful. It's possible to breed for health and vigor and temperament, but not when you make those things subordinate to pure physical traits. Honestly I think the conformance organizations like the AKC have a lot to answer for in those prioritizations.
posted by KathrynT at 11:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I grew up with a pure-bred labrador retriever, pedigreed and all, but her pedigree was as a hunting dog, not a conformance dog. Her pedigree on her dam's side was extremely impressive, full of awards and all kinds of things. (On her sire's side, not so much, he was kind of a no-account scrub dog from a line of workaday, perfectly acceptable hunting retrievers. The most special thing about him, as it turned out, was his ability to jump a 6' fence when he smelled a dog in heat.) She would have been laughed out of any AKC dog show in the world, but she was a great goddamn dog, healthy and loyal, kind and loving, smart and brave, just all around wonderful. It's possible to breed for health and vigor and temperament, but not when you make those things subordinate to pure physical traits. Honestly I think the conformance organizations like the AKC have a lot to answer for in those prioritizations.
posted by KathrynT at 11:13 AM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Man, I just saw a French bulldog the other day and was kinda idly wondering whether they were as badly off as the English ones — they look kinda cool, maybe it'd be a good fit? Apparently no, they're just as terrible, if not moreso.
posted by klangklangston at 1:01 PM on December 18, 2015
posted by klangklangston at 1:01 PM on December 18, 2015
This thread took an early tone that was quite hostile to breeds in general, people who own purebred dogs, and breeders.
I don't know if comments were deleted but to me it looks like any early hostile comments are outnumbered by ones saying the author may have a point but is a jerk, farts are funny, the poster's dog is super great, the poster has a dog but is conflcited on this issue, etc.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:54 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know if comments were deleted but to me it looks like any early hostile comments are outnumbered by ones saying the author may have a point but is a jerk, farts are funny, the poster's dog is super great, the poster has a dog but is conflcited on this issue, etc.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 1:54 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
A friend of my brother's has a shiba inu and he is seriously the most handsome dog ever.
threemix, I realize this may be a tall order because it's your brother's friend's dog, but I'm afraid I must insist that you post a photo.
posted by holborne at 2:20 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
threemix, I realize this may be a tall order because it's your brother's friend's dog, but I'm afraid I must insist that you post a photo.
posted by holborne at 2:20 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I think this is a sickness that comes from the Kennel Clubs down. Getting the mass of purebred breeders and buyer to change their habits is needed, and that's a long, grassroots sort of change. On the other side, from the top down, here's some (off the cuff) reforms I think would make a difference:
1) re-evaluate all breed standards to bring them closer to the breeds as they existed in the past (100 years ago maybe) - most problems were bred in within very recent memory.
2) end closed breeding registries for all breeds
3) tied to that: end automatic registration - you don't get to be "purebred" just because your parents were
4) registration contingent on health checks, loose conformance to breed standard, and breed appropriate baseline performance. Walk, run, swim, jump, whatever. Depends on the breed, but even a breed with no working history should be able to walk around the block without over-heating.
5) incorporate performance baselines in the breed standard. Include it in shows where appropriate. Winning dog doesn't need to be an agility champion, but working breeds should show some ability to perform, and everybody should meet some basic baseline standards.
This would be a massive sea change in the culture of purebred dog breeding, but something like this is necessary if we actually care about these animals.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:51 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
1) re-evaluate all breed standards to bring them closer to the breeds as they existed in the past (100 years ago maybe) - most problems were bred in within very recent memory.
2) end closed breeding registries for all breeds
3) tied to that: end automatic registration - you don't get to be "purebred" just because your parents were
4) registration contingent on health checks, loose conformance to breed standard, and breed appropriate baseline performance. Walk, run, swim, jump, whatever. Depends on the breed, but even a breed with no working history should be able to walk around the block without over-heating.
5) incorporate performance baselines in the breed standard. Include it in shows where appropriate. Winning dog doesn't need to be an agility champion, but working breeds should show some ability to perform, and everybody should meet some basic baseline standards.
This would be a massive sea change in the culture of purebred dog breeding, but something like this is necessary if we actually care about these animals.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:51 PM on December 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
There is certainly some judgment on the mutt side, but they're not alone in that. You'll see it more from the mutt side in dog-centered discussions because they're self selecting, but you'd see a lot more breed-ism if you just stopped people on the streets.
In the US, anyway, there are plenty of dogs in need of homes, and there are plenty of people who don't even consider them based on ignorance. There are a lot of people who perceive mutts as inferior, just across the board.
I've had two purebred dogs myself (an American Bulldog from a shelter, and a greyhound from a pretty cloak and dagger rescue operation), and I have plenty of friends with purebred dogs that I don't think any less of for it. Everyone's situations and reasoning behind things is different, and even if I think someone made the wrong choice, I don't assume they're bad people because of it. And I sure as hell don't think the dogs are bad or undeserving.
But there are a lot of very damaging misconceptions that drive the purebred dog industry, notably the ones where people think they can accurately predict a dog's qualities by just picking the right breed, and that mutts and the people who live with them are suboptimal in some way.
I got in a very frustrating argument with a woman once who insisted that my dog must be a purebred because she was so pretty, as though my saying she was a mutt was some sort of denigration, like I'm saying she's just a cheap knockoff that I got at the used dog store. She is gorgeous, no question, and she's smart and gentle and healthy and pretty much the ideal dog. And she is not only a mutt, but she's also what some call 'shelter trash'--a pit-bull shaped dog picked up as an adult stray and brought to a high kill municipal shelter. She was in heat when we got her because they couldn't spare the resources to spay her, not knowing whether it'd be necessary.
So it's frustrating that so many people have these misguided perceptions about breeds. People go out looking for a breed that will fit their requirements, as though you can just fill out an order form and get a dog made to spec, and they systematically reject dogs that are already out there and need homes as though there's something wrong with them. The vast majority of the time, you've got a much better chance of finding a dog that fits your physical and temperamental requirements by just walking into a shelter and finding the right individual dog than you do trying to order one from someone making a profit selling dogs.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:59 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
In the US, anyway, there are plenty of dogs in need of homes, and there are plenty of people who don't even consider them based on ignorance. There are a lot of people who perceive mutts as inferior, just across the board.
I've had two purebred dogs myself (an American Bulldog from a shelter, and a greyhound from a pretty cloak and dagger rescue operation), and I have plenty of friends with purebred dogs that I don't think any less of for it. Everyone's situations and reasoning behind things is different, and even if I think someone made the wrong choice, I don't assume they're bad people because of it. And I sure as hell don't think the dogs are bad or undeserving.
But there are a lot of very damaging misconceptions that drive the purebred dog industry, notably the ones where people think they can accurately predict a dog's qualities by just picking the right breed, and that mutts and the people who live with them are suboptimal in some way.
I got in a very frustrating argument with a woman once who insisted that my dog must be a purebred because she was so pretty, as though my saying she was a mutt was some sort of denigration, like I'm saying she's just a cheap knockoff that I got at the used dog store. She is gorgeous, no question, and she's smart and gentle and healthy and pretty much the ideal dog. And she is not only a mutt, but she's also what some call 'shelter trash'--a pit-bull shaped dog picked up as an adult stray and brought to a high kill municipal shelter. She was in heat when we got her because they couldn't spare the resources to spay her, not knowing whether it'd be necessary.
So it's frustrating that so many people have these misguided perceptions about breeds. People go out looking for a breed that will fit their requirements, as though you can just fill out an order form and get a dog made to spec, and they systematically reject dogs that are already out there and need homes as though there's something wrong with them. The vast majority of the time, you've got a much better chance of finding a dog that fits your physical and temperamental requirements by just walking into a shelter and finding the right individual dog than you do trying to order one from someone making a profit selling dogs.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:59 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've seen the behind-the-scenes of a (now defunct) track and it seemed like the dogs lived pretty good working dog lives.
Greyhounds are not a working dog the way Collies are a working dog; Greyhounds are an industry.
The problem isn't restricted to the quality of life of the dogs you can see on the track. The dogs you see on the track are the 1%. To get that 1 in 100 racing performance dog, there is massive, continuous breeding of bitches. The under-performing dogs who result are culled. So are many retired dogs. Legally the culled animals must be humanely euthanized, but even when that happens, it's not a great end to a life spent on a concrete floor or in a stacked crate.
The ASPCA, which is a far cry from PETA in terms of reactionary nuttiness, is absolutely against Greyhound racing with very non-sensational reasons and statistics.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:52 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Greyhounds are not a working dog the way Collies are a working dog; Greyhounds are an industry.
The problem isn't restricted to the quality of life of the dogs you can see on the track. The dogs you see on the track are the 1%. To get that 1 in 100 racing performance dog, there is massive, continuous breeding of bitches. The under-performing dogs who result are culled. So are many retired dogs. Legally the culled animals must be humanely euthanized, but even when that happens, it's not a great end to a life spent on a concrete floor or in a stacked crate.
The ASPCA, which is a far cry from PETA in terms of reactionary nuttiness, is absolutely against Greyhound racing with very non-sensational reasons and statistics.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:52 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think this is a sickness that comes from the Kennel Clubs down. Getting the mass of purebred breeders and buyer to change their habits is needed, and that's a long, grassroots sort of change.
But wouldn't it be the case that it's the breeders who are winning who have all the power, and if they've got short-airway dogs who are winning and who they and judges consider to be the platonic ideal of special doghood, they're going to actively impose anything that threatens their privilege and sunk costs, like moving to dogs that can breathe and thermoregulate?
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:11 PM on December 18, 2015
But wouldn't it be the case that it's the breeders who are winning who have all the power, and if they've got short-airway dogs who are winning and who they and judges consider to be the platonic ideal of special doghood, they're going to actively impose anything that threatens their privilege and sunk costs, like moving to dogs that can breathe and thermoregulate?
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:11 PM on December 18, 2015
I've owned retired greyhounds for twelve years, and have known people on the rescue side and on the breeding, owning and training side for about as long. I'm not going to get into an unrelated argument in this thread, but let's just say I disagree.
posted by misskaz at 10:42 AM on December 19, 2015
posted by misskaz at 10:42 AM on December 19, 2015
But wouldn't it be the case that it's the breeders who are winning who have all the power, and if they've got short-airway dogs who are winning and who they and judges consider to be the platonic ideal of special doghood, they're going to actively impose anything that threatens their privilege and sunk costs, like moving to dogs that can breathe and thermoregulate?
Yep! It's a problem.
There are good breed clubs out there, but they're few and far between and they don't organize with each other. Border Collie registries are good. They opposed the recognition of the breed by the big kennel clubs (didn't work), and require an actual herding test to register. The Jack Russell terrier people successfully got the AKC and KC to change the name of what those organizations recognized to Parson Russell terrier.
We need more breed clubs like these, and not just for working breeds. We need a cross-breed organization that can work with these sorts of open-registry breed clubs. If the AKC can't be reformed to be that organization (and I have no idea how it would be, for reasons you point out), then we need a new cross-breed organization. We win if either that organization grows to replace the AKC, or if it gets big enough that the AKC is threatened and reforms itself.
Right now there's the UKC, which is working breeds only, and is of an accommodationist mindset when it comes to the AKC. It's not enough.
I think part of the problem is that dog breeding clubs have their roots in eugenicist ideology of the early 1900s. This is where you get the closed book registry, the existence of the term "purebred", etc. Working breed registries have different roots and have been able to maintain partial resistance, but there's nobody doing open registries for non-working breeds, as far as I'm aware. It comes to eugenic notions of how to breed the animals, and it leads to sick animals, because eugenists were wrong.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:58 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yep! It's a problem.
There are good breed clubs out there, but they're few and far between and they don't organize with each other. Border Collie registries are good. They opposed the recognition of the breed by the big kennel clubs (didn't work), and require an actual herding test to register. The Jack Russell terrier people successfully got the AKC and KC to change the name of what those organizations recognized to Parson Russell terrier.
We need more breed clubs like these, and not just for working breeds. We need a cross-breed organization that can work with these sorts of open-registry breed clubs. If the AKC can't be reformed to be that organization (and I have no idea how it would be, for reasons you point out), then we need a new cross-breed organization. We win if either that organization grows to replace the AKC, or if it gets big enough that the AKC is threatened and reforms itself.
Right now there's the UKC, which is working breeds only, and is of an accommodationist mindset when it comes to the AKC. It's not enough.
I think part of the problem is that dog breeding clubs have their roots in eugenicist ideology of the early 1900s. This is where you get the closed book registry, the existence of the term "purebred", etc. Working breed registries have different roots and have been able to maintain partial resistance, but there's nobody doing open registries for non-working breeds, as far as I'm aware. It comes to eugenic notions of how to breed the animals, and it leads to sick animals, because eugenists were wrong.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:58 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
And there is a blooper in the UCLA intstructor bringing her bulldog to class as a visual aid! At 40 minute mark of lecture 13 one of the students pulls out an apple and the dog goes for it.
posted by bukvich at 3:13 PM on December 29, 2015
posted by bukvich at 3:13 PM on December 29, 2015
Todays show breeds are essentially what breeders of any other type of organism would call "an inbred line". Inbred lines are generally only used by breeders to create hybrids or varieties, and are rarely put out into the general population. If two lines are crossed to form an F1 hybrid, the dominant genes are mostly represented and the offspring are relatively uniform. If the F1s are then crossed to create F2s, the various genes will segregate and the offspring will be so variable that the breeder will have little trouble finding an individual that can compete in conformation, without all the problems of inbreeding. I think we need to redefine what is meant by the terms "breed", "variety" etc., bringing them closer to the way other breeders use the terms..
posted by ambulocetus at 5:49 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ambulocetus at 5:49 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
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