Where "schools aren’t a place to learn, they’re a place to fear."
December 18, 2015 12:34 PM Subscribe
In 2007, the Pinellas County, Florida School Board abandoned integration, joining hundreds of US school districts in former Confederacy states that have resegregated since 2000. The Board justified the vote with bold promises: Schools in poor, black neighborhoods would get more money, more staff, more resources -- none of which happened. This past August, the Tampa Bay Times published an exposé, revealing how district leaders turned five once-average schools into Failure Factories.
Tampa Bay Times education reporters Cara Fitzpatrick and Lisa Gartner, investigative reporter Michael LaForgia and photographer Dirk Shadd spent a year tracing how Pinellas County School District leaders neglected their neediest schools.
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The "Failure Factories" link above includes the following index:
Prologue: Why Pinellas County is the worst place in Florida to be black and go to public school
Part One: How the Pinellas County School Board neglected five schools until they became the worst in Florida. The schools: Campbell Park, Fairmount Park, Lakewood, Maximo and Melrose elementaries.
Part Two: Violence is a part of daily life in Pinellas County’s most segregated elementary schools
Part Three: In five segregated schools, kids get worse teachers
Part Four: 45,952 days lost to discipline
Hear from the kids: For 31 kids, this is what it’s like to go to resegregated schools
7 elected school officials respond
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Slate:
Tampa Bay Times education reporters Cara Fitzpatrick and Lisa Gartner, investigative reporter Michael LaForgia and photographer Dirk Shadd spent a year tracing how Pinellas County School District leaders neglected their neediest schools.
--
The "Failure Factories" link above includes the following index:
Prologue: Why Pinellas County is the worst place in Florida to be black and go to public school
Part One: How the Pinellas County School Board neglected five schools until they became the worst in Florida. The schools: Campbell Park, Fairmount Park, Lakewood, Maximo and Melrose elementaries.
Part Two: Violence is a part of daily life in Pinellas County’s most segregated elementary schools
Part Three: In five segregated schools, kids get worse teachers
Part Four: 45,952 days lost to discipline
Hear from the kids: For 31 kids, this is what it’s like to go to resegregated schools
7 elected school officials respond
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Slate:
When the board voted to resegregate in December 2007, it vowed to pour more resources into what would become overnight-majority-poor and -black schools: more counselors and social workers, beefed-up after-school and summer programs. It did none of these things. Funding was erratic, and unlike other districts with high-poverty schools that have made efforts to invest in minority students (a computer tracking program in Broward County, a teacher-incentive bonus of up to $20,000 in Duval County), the Pinellas County board just shrugged off the plummeting scores and skyrocketing reports of behavior problems, and actively ended any attempts at intervention. More than half of teachers in the five schools requested transfers out in 2014, and some classes had up to 12 different teachers in a single year. The teachers who stayed were often the most inept and inexperienced.
Even after community calls for change, the school board members continued to attribute the abysmal state of their county’s black schools to the “cycle of poverty,” absent any influence from them. “This is a nationwide thing, not just us,” the piece quotes school board member Peggy O’Shea, who voted for resegregation in 2007 and continues to defend her stance today, as saying. You get a good sense of her sympathies when she goes on to say, “We only talk about it in black schools, but we resegregated white schools as well.”
The self-proclaimed World's Largest Confederate Battle Flag is the centerpiece of a Confederate veterans memorial, erected in 2008 by Marion Lambert as a spit-in-the-eye to county commissioners who refused to acknowledge a celebration of "Southern Heritage Month."
The giant flag is 50 ft. by 30 ft., on a pole tall enough that the provocative symbol can be seen miles away on the interstate and from surrounding communities.
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posted by Postroad at 12:39 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
How does a teacher learn effective classroom management, really? I am licensed to teach, but I never took a single class on classroom management, and if I were in a classroom with disciplinary issues like this, I would also be out of my depth.
posted by all about eevee at 1:10 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by all about eevee at 1:10 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is actually something that happens in virtually every part of the country, north and south. The ZomG Confederates angle is bizarre and unhelpful, and, I think, generally used as a way to ignore the massive, omnipresent racial segregation in places like Flint, Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, Los Angeles and so forth.
Also, there are two different arguments at work here. There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school. I can't think of any empirical reason why this would be true, except for the kind of quasi-racist Bill Cosby "culture-of-failure-ism" that even well-meaning progressives will occasionally engage in.
In other words, a lot of the hand-wringing about school resegregation basically boils down to "how will black children learn to be smart and well-behaved without the blessed presences of whites?" -- which is bullshit. Black children don't need to be in the physical presence of white children and white teachers in order to excel academically and behave appropriately. To suggest otherwise is outstandingly, blatantly racist and I'm honestly amazed that we progressives have adopted this unthinking racism. The Tampa Bay Times seems to be heading (unconsciously) in this direction with their reporting, and it's dumb.
The other, more serious issue is that children are being segregated while being denied access to equal resources. The Slate article seems to be heading in that direction, and that is far more astute on their part. The real problem here is not that in the US we "separate people of color from whites" but that we deny people of color their rightful share of our nation's resources. Fix that and where people live and go to school won't matter anymore.
posted by Tyrant King Porn Dragon at 1:22 PM on December 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
Also, there are two different arguments at work here. There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school. I can't think of any empirical reason why this would be true, except for the kind of quasi-racist Bill Cosby "culture-of-failure-ism" that even well-meaning progressives will occasionally engage in.
In other words, a lot of the hand-wringing about school resegregation basically boils down to "how will black children learn to be smart and well-behaved without the blessed presences of whites?" -- which is bullshit. Black children don't need to be in the physical presence of white children and white teachers in order to excel academically and behave appropriately. To suggest otherwise is outstandingly, blatantly racist and I'm honestly amazed that we progressives have adopted this unthinking racism. The Tampa Bay Times seems to be heading (unconsciously) in this direction with their reporting, and it's dumb.
The other, more serious issue is that children are being segregated while being denied access to equal resources. The Slate article seems to be heading in that direction, and that is far more astute on their part. The real problem here is not that in the US we "separate people of color from whites" but that we deny people of color their rightful share of our nation's resources. Fix that and where people live and go to school won't matter anymore.
posted by Tyrant King Porn Dragon at 1:22 PM on December 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
TKPD, integration is known to (at least) improve the test scores of Black students going there while not doing any harm to the scores of White students.
Another source, this time a research compilation.
And there may even be a benefit for White students.
I found these via a quick google for "integrated schools performance," and, as this is not my field, cannot speak to the accuracy of these. But as far as I can tell, they are reliably sourced and well documented.
Can someone with more experience chime in?
posted by Hactar at 1:33 PM on December 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
Another source, this time a research compilation.
And there may even be a benefit for White students.
I found these via a quick google for "integrated schools performance," and, as this is not my field, cannot speak to the accuracy of these. But as far as I can tell, they are reliably sourced and well documented.
Can someone with more experience chime in?
posted by Hactar at 1:33 PM on December 18, 2015 [21 favorites]
all about eevee, so true. I'm also a former teacher and it was never once addressed, despite all of us student teaching and then taking jobs in schools with many systemic behavioral challenges. Some teachers are lucky and just have the knack. If you don't, but you're lucky, you land in a school where your colleagues mentor you or your principal provides effective professional development.
That said, good teaching and engaging curriculum takes care of most of the behavioral issues. Developing relationships with the remaining chronically defiant students (chronic defiance happens for all kinds of reasons and has to be tackled on a case-by-case basis) takes care of most of the rest. But if these kids had ill-prepared or bad teachers who are cycling through, guaranteed they're not getting interesting lessons or a caring adult who knows them well enough to create appropriate interventions or how to effectively structure and maintain a learning environment. You have to have consistent staff and strong leadership to create and maintain a healthy school culture.
While this is some of the most egregious segregation I've heard of, resegregation is happening all across the country.
posted by smirkette at 1:37 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
That said, good teaching and engaging curriculum takes care of most of the behavioral issues. Developing relationships with the remaining chronically defiant students (chronic defiance happens for all kinds of reasons and has to be tackled on a case-by-case basis) takes care of most of the rest. But if these kids had ill-prepared or bad teachers who are cycling through, guaranteed they're not getting interesting lessons or a caring adult who knows them well enough to create appropriate interventions or how to effectively structure and maintain a learning environment. You have to have consistent staff and strong leadership to create and maintain a healthy school culture.
While this is some of the most egregious segregation I've heard of, resegregation is happening all across the country.
posted by smirkette at 1:37 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school. I can't think of any empirical reason why this would be true.
I suggest you take the time to read the actual statistical data and research that definitively shows outcomes are improved as a result of integration if you are having trouble thinking of reasons on your own before dismissing the idea as "racist."
posted by Karaage at 1:40 PM on December 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
I suggest you take the time to read the actual statistical data and research that definitively shows outcomes are improved as a result of integration if you are having trouble thinking of reasons on your own before dismissing the idea as "racist."
posted by Karaage at 1:40 PM on December 18, 2015 [38 favorites]
But the principals also said most students at their schools are safe.
What?!
How can that possibly be? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that 1 out of 10 students is not safe. How can one student be in danger, but the other nine students be safe? It makes no sense whatsoever.
On the other hand, maybe it does. I was never safe at school (until late high school, I would say), being a victim of bullying. But most students weren't victims of bullying. So I wasn't safe, other students were.
Nevermind.
posted by el io at 1:40 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
What?!
How can that possibly be? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that 1 out of 10 students is not safe. How can one student be in danger, but the other nine students be safe? It makes no sense whatsoever.
On the other hand, maybe it does. I was never safe at school (until late high school, I would say), being a victim of bullying. But most students weren't victims of bullying. So I wasn't safe, other students were.
Nevermind.
posted by el io at 1:40 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school. I can't think of any empirical reason why this would be true
I've always assumed that a reason is that it's much easier to underfund a school (and look the other way as it fails) when those actions are only affecting people without much voice/power because their society is racist and/or structured against them. Put the kids of both backgrounds together in the same classroom and you can't get away with that.
posted by anonymisc at 1:42 PM on December 18, 2015 [65 favorites]
I've always assumed that a reason is that it's much easier to underfund a school (and look the other way as it fails) when those actions are only affecting people without much voice/power because their society is racist and/or structured against them. Put the kids of both backgrounds together in the same classroom and you can't get away with that.
posted by anonymisc at 1:42 PM on December 18, 2015 [65 favorites]
I remember being super concerned about classroom management in my teaching classes as a petite, young-looking female. My professors all told me that I should develop a "teacher voice" and a "teacher look", and voila! I would magically have total control of my classroom. In other words, figure it out, little tiger.
posted by all about eevee at 1:43 PM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by all about eevee at 1:43 PM on December 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school.
As others have stated, this is a proven fact.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:44 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
As others have stated, this is a proven fact.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:44 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
anonymisc, that's what I figured too. It's not the presence of white kids in the classroom that makes the difference. It's the presence of the FUNDING that the white kids' schools get. Shuffle the black kids off into their own schools and they can be conveniently forgotten. Alas.
posted by Archer25 at 1:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Archer25 at 1:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school.
As others have stated, this is a proven fact.
One that I imagine has do to with the parents of the white kids willing to put more money into those schools which was really the whole point of integration in the first place. It was realized that the only way to get white parents to care about black students was to link the goals to their own kids.
posted by dances with hamsters at 1:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
As others have stated, this is a proven fact.
One that I imagine has do to with the parents of the white kids willing to put more money into those schools which was really the whole point of integration in the first place. It was realized that the only way to get white parents to care about black students was to link the goals to their own kids.
posted by dances with hamsters at 1:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
It's not just funding. We're talking curriculum, attraction of teachers to a school, and creating children who are more empathetic and less prejudiced.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [31 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [31 favorites]
I suggest you take the time to read the actual statistical data and research that definitively shows outcomes are improved as a result of integration if you are having trouble thinking of reasons on your own before dismissing the idea as "racist."
posted by Karaage at 1:40 PM on December 18 [3 favorites +] [!]
Question: when you say that children of color need to be around white children in order to do well in school -- what exactly are you saying? Do you suppose that this statement is free of racial context and hidden white supremacy? Do you suppose that our history as a white-supremacist nation has no bearing on those who make such statements?
One that I imagine has do to with the parents of the white kids willing to put more money into those schools which was really the whole point of integration in the first place. It was realized that the only way to get white parents to care about black students was to link the goals to their own kids.
posted by dances with hamsters at 1:50 PM on December 18 [+] [!]
I can accept this idea -- putting people of color into white schools and white neighborhoods is a decent way to "trick" otherwise uncaring whites into providing resources to people of color. It's sad and pathetic, however, that this is where we're at - in 2015.
posted by Tyrant King Porn Dragon at 1:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Karaage at 1:40 PM on December 18 [3 favorites +] [!]
Question: when you say that children of color need to be around white children in order to do well in school -- what exactly are you saying? Do you suppose that this statement is free of racial context and hidden white supremacy? Do you suppose that our history as a white-supremacist nation has no bearing on those who make such statements?
One that I imagine has do to with the parents of the white kids willing to put more money into those schools which was really the whole point of integration in the first place. It was realized that the only way to get white parents to care about black students was to link the goals to their own kids.
posted by dances with hamsters at 1:50 PM on December 18 [+] [!]
I can accept this idea -- putting people of color into white schools and white neighborhoods is a decent way to "trick" otherwise uncaring whites into providing resources to people of color. It's sad and pathetic, however, that this is where we're at - in 2015.
posted by Tyrant King Porn Dragon at 1:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am continually surprised that there aren't continuous riots. Although given what happens when people riot, I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised.
posted by desjardins at 1:58 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 1:58 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
: when you say that children of color need to be around white children in order to do well in school -- what exactly are you saying? Do you suppose that this statement is free of racial context and hidden white supremacy? Do you suppose that our history as a white-supremacist nation has no bearing on those who make such statements?
I would suggest you spend less time interrogating the motives of other community members and more time reading the links that show data refuting nearly every one of your claims.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:00 PM on December 18, 2015 [46 favorites]
I would suggest you spend less time interrogating the motives of other community members and more time reading the links that show data refuting nearly every one of your claims.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:00 PM on December 18, 2015 [46 favorites]
From Part 2: On the day Salimah was hospitalized, there had already been more than 1,100 violent incidents at the schools in 2013-14. The experience left her mother, Tammy Bullock, so disturbed that she moved the family back to Philadelphia. She said she would rather take her chances in that city’s public school system than remain in St. Petersburg.
Philadelphia, people. Where the mayor uses the phrase "educational apartheid" and budget failures might mean a districtwide shutdown in January. WTF?
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:00 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Philadelphia, people. Where the mayor uses the phrase "educational apartheid" and budget failures might mean a districtwide shutdown in January. WTF?
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:00 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
One that I imagine has do to with the parents of the white kids willing to put more money into those schools which was really the whole point of integration in the first place. It was realized that the only way to get white parents to care about black students was to link the goals to their own kids.
It's not just money, it's time. Poverty often forces both parents to work in order to make ends meet. In households where one parent isn't working and doesn't need to work, they are then available to volunteer for school trips or functions, meet with teachers during or immediately after school hours, work with their kids on homework when they get home from school (as opposed to having them in an aftercare program or at a neighbor or family member's house between the time school ends and a parent returns home,) and then working with them in the early evening. It puts a strain on the kids and the parents.
Black and Latino parents are more likely to be poor than Whites in Pinellas County:
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2013: 15.0%
(11.8% for White Non-Hispanic residents, 32.0% for Black residents, 22.5% for Hispanic or Latino residents, 15.2% for American Indian residents, 16.4% for Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander residents, 28.7% for other race residents, 21.0% for two or more races residents)
Assuming that the people attending segregated Black Schools are poorer, this means they will have more difficulty effecting changes with school administrators. It's a vicious cycle.
posted by zarq at 2:04 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's not just money, it's time. Poverty often forces both parents to work in order to make ends meet. In households where one parent isn't working and doesn't need to work, they are then available to volunteer for school trips or functions, meet with teachers during or immediately after school hours, work with their kids on homework when they get home from school (as opposed to having them in an aftercare program or at a neighbor or family member's house between the time school ends and a parent returns home,) and then working with them in the early evening. It puts a strain on the kids and the parents.
Black and Latino parents are more likely to be poor than Whites in Pinellas County:
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2013: 15.0%
(11.8% for White Non-Hispanic residents, 32.0% for Black residents, 22.5% for Hispanic or Latino residents, 15.2% for American Indian residents, 16.4% for Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander residents, 28.7% for other race residents, 21.0% for two or more races residents)
Assuming that the people attending segregated Black Schools are poorer, this means they will have more difficulty effecting changes with school administrators. It's a vicious cycle.
posted by zarq at 2:04 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
"Times reporters wrote computer software to link the databases, then compare schools across the county based on teacher turnover, longevity and other factors."
This greatly added to the amount of hard facts they were able to bring to the articles. The journalist-programmer is one of the great additions to reporting in this century. While not perfect, this was a great series of articles.
posted by el io at 2:04 PM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
This greatly added to the amount of hard facts they were able to bring to the articles. The journalist-programmer is one of the great additions to reporting in this century. While not perfect, this was a great series of articles.
posted by el io at 2:04 PM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
Of course many rich white parents have gotten around this by putting their children into private schools or charter schools. (Sure, #notallcharters, but enough of them.)
In San Francisco, where I taught, parents would put their kids in the lottery so they could apply to the three "good" (read: mostly Asian or white) high schools and then yank them if they didn't. This plays holy hell with school funding and enrollment and made it so we didn't know who we actually had coming until the second week of school. In the meantime, because school funding is tied to student enrollment, schools would be over- or under-staffed because we didn't know our real numbers yet.
And aside from the very real academic effects integrated schooling has on children, don't forget the importance social effects as well. I wish I still had access to an academic database to see what research has been done in this arena. Anecdotally, I benefited so much from attending (and teaching in) a very diverse school.
posted by smirkette at 2:05 PM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
In San Francisco, where I taught, parents would put their kids in the lottery so they could apply to the three "good" (read: mostly Asian or white) high schools and then yank them if they didn't. This plays holy hell with school funding and enrollment and made it so we didn't know who we actually had coming until the second week of school. In the meantime, because school funding is tied to student enrollment, schools would be over- or under-staffed because we didn't know our real numbers yet.
And aside from the very real academic effects integrated schooling has on children, don't forget the importance social effects as well. I wish I still had access to an academic database to see what research has been done in this arena. Anecdotally, I benefited so much from attending (and teaching in) a very diverse school.
posted by smirkette at 2:05 PM on December 18, 2015 [14 favorites]
This is absolutely appalling. I mean, I know that's obvious, but it feels like the same people who talk about shit like "bootstraps" are also the ones who cut funding to schools where the kids most need it. I've taught in some very, VERY low-performing schools and it is fucking Goddamn hard to go in every day and see the kids who you know deserve better, be it individuals with special ed needs who aren't getting the support to which they're legally entitled or really smart, hardworking kids who aren't getting appropriate educations because everything is being taught for kids below grade level who need to catch up or just regular kids who are not being taught appropriately and are getting a lot of really problematic lessons about what's acceptable in a school environment because no one does anything about the really serious problems so they think the outbursts and violence and fighting are normal.
I mean, it's one thing to see kids in that situation and know you're doing you're very, very best to help them. It's heartbreaking and exhausting and scary and it'll burn you out really fast and you'll never feel like you've done enough, but at least you know you're doing what you can. I cannot fathom being someone who looks at kids in a bad school situation and does nothing or even makes it worse. How do you live with yourself? How do you get up every morning knowing that you're someone who has resegregated schools and not provided funding or support and put kids in immediate physical danger as well as keeping them from learning and having the opportunities they deserve? I could barely live with myself when I was at school from 6:30 to 6:30 because I felt like I wasn't helping enough. How can these people, tasked with these kids' welfare, DO this? I know we all know it's fucking Goddamn horrible but, uh, it's fucking Goddamn horrible.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:06 PM on December 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
I mean, it's one thing to see kids in that situation and know you're doing you're very, very best to help them. It's heartbreaking and exhausting and scary and it'll burn you out really fast and you'll never feel like you've done enough, but at least you know you're doing what you can. I cannot fathom being someone who looks at kids in a bad school situation and does nothing or even makes it worse. How do you live with yourself? How do you get up every morning knowing that you're someone who has resegregated schools and not provided funding or support and put kids in immediate physical danger as well as keeping them from learning and having the opportunities they deserve? I could barely live with myself when I was at school from 6:30 to 6:30 because I felt like I wasn't helping enough. How can these people, tasked with these kids' welfare, DO this? I know we all know it's fucking Goddamn horrible but, uh, it's fucking Goddamn horrible.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:06 PM on December 18, 2015 [29 favorites]
This plays holy hell with school funding and enrollment and made it so we didn't know who we actually had coming until the second week of school. In the meantime, because school funding is tied to student enrollment, schools would be over- or under-staffed because we didn't know our real numbers yet.
We had students who told us "I'm going to a different school" because they got accepted at a charter school a few weeks into the year and they were at their new school the week that attendance was officially taken to determine funding and then, so weird, they were back with us as soon as budgets were determined. It was effing uncanny.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
We had students who told us "I'm going to a different school" because they got accepted at a charter school a few weeks into the year and they were at their new school the week that attendance was officially taken to determine funding and then, so weird, they were back with us as soon as budgets were determined. It was effing uncanny.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [19 favorites]
I know that New Jersey took over the schools in Newark. Is there any mechanism to do this sort of thing in Pinellas? I have mixed feelings about local school board control usually (there are benefits and problems), but in a situation like this, the board needs to be frozen out of the decision loop.
posted by Hactar at 2:09 PM on December 18, 2015
posted by Hactar at 2:09 PM on December 18, 2015
I also am leaving in like a minute and I don't want to monopolize the conversation but there are so many things that go into making a school "good" and these include but are not limited to expectations (knowing what a "good school" is supposed to look like and behaving in accordance with that), kids feeling like it's WORTH learning because they see that education can bring you opportunity, families understanding the importance of education and prioritizing that, families who have well-educated members (I had kids whose parents literally couldn't read their report cards -- they did their best but there was only so much academic support they could give their kids) and just like a billion other things that are tied up in making schools good. When you separate out schools such that kids from historically undersupported groups are all in one place, you end up with a big group of kids who don't have these advantages and it's really hard to make the school better.
That's a super unsophisticated analysis and I have to go now because my husband is literally waiting downstairs so I apologize if I phrased anything badly, but I want to reiterate that there are SO MANY FACTORS necessary for a school to be "good" and if you warehouse all the disadvantaged kids you are much, MUCH more likely to have crummy schools.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:16 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
That's a super unsophisticated analysis and I have to go now because my husband is literally waiting downstairs so I apologize if I phrased anything badly, but I want to reiterate that there are SO MANY FACTORS necessary for a school to be "good" and if you warehouse all the disadvantaged kids you are much, MUCH more likely to have crummy schools.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 2:16 PM on December 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
This is actually something that happens in virtually every part of the country, north and south. The ZomG Confederates angle is bizarre and unhelpful, and, I think, generally used as a way to ignore the massive, omnipresent racial segregation in places like Flint, Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, Los Angeles and so forth.
As far as I saw, the Tampa Bay Times didn't note the Confederacy connection, so I did by deliberately linking to a ProPublica investigation I posted to MeFi last year. Hundreds of school districts across 11 former Confederate states have resegregated, after they had to be forced to desegregate in 1954. A significant pattern which should not be ignored or dismissed. Apparently little has changed in 60 years time. When they could, hundreds of school districts jumped at the chance to divide along racial lines once again -- screwing hundreds of thousands of minority students.
Segregation in the North, NorthEast and West tends to manifest differently. As noted by some folks upthread, in those areas of the country, some Whites choose to send their kids to charter and private schools. This can and does negatively affect funding initiatives and education opportunities in public schools. But it is a less widespread and more "organic" process, similar to White Flight, that isn't initiated and run by individual school districts. So it's different than what's happening here. It's still a terrible thing, yes. But Pinellas is part of a larger, specific, addressable problem.
School districts should be fighting inequality, not perpetuating it. They should be doing their best to make sure that every student within their domain has the same opportunities and is given the best possible educational foundation to help them succeed. And when we're faced with a disturbing pattern, we shouldn't simply shrug defeatedly and say 'well shucks, it's like this everywhere.' Because no, it's not.
posted by zarq at 2:26 PM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
As far as I saw, the Tampa Bay Times didn't note the Confederacy connection, so I did by deliberately linking to a ProPublica investigation I posted to MeFi last year. Hundreds of school districts across 11 former Confederate states have resegregated, after they had to be forced to desegregate in 1954. A significant pattern which should not be ignored or dismissed. Apparently little has changed in 60 years time. When they could, hundreds of school districts jumped at the chance to divide along racial lines once again -- screwing hundreds of thousands of minority students.
Segregation in the North, NorthEast and West tends to manifest differently. As noted by some folks upthread, in those areas of the country, some Whites choose to send their kids to charter and private schools. This can and does negatively affect funding initiatives and education opportunities in public schools. But it is a less widespread and more "organic" process, similar to White Flight, that isn't initiated and run by individual school districts. So it's different than what's happening here. It's still a terrible thing, yes. But Pinellas is part of a larger, specific, addressable problem.
School districts should be fighting inequality, not perpetuating it. They should be doing their best to make sure that every student within their domain has the same opportunities and is given the best possible educational foundation to help them succeed. And when we're faced with a disturbing pattern, we shouldn't simply shrug defeatedly and say 'well shucks, it's like this everywhere.' Because no, it's not.
posted by zarq at 2:26 PM on December 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm a 2001 graduate of Pinellas County's Gibbs High School. Gibbs was the high school for black students in St. Pete when schools were segregated. Racial tension was ongoing when I was there; I cannot even imagine how things are there now. Very sad to see this happening in an area dear to my heart.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
The county and regional districts in the south which have ended busing have pretty much put themselves in the exact position regions elsewhere are: schools which reflect the homogenous racial and socioeconomic status of their respective neighborhoods' public school attendees. The only real difference is that in the north and the west there are very few county or regional districts so the school's demographics can reflect their neighborhoods' demographics without any explicit political action.
posted by MattD at 2:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by MattD at 2:50 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Question: when you say that children of color need to be around white children in order to do well in school -- what exactly are you saying? Do you suppose that this statement is free of racial context and hidden white supremacy?
This is a bad faith reading of what I asked that you do and amounts to concern trolling.
Children of color do not magically gain intelligence points by being seated next to white children in school. They don't "need" to be around white children in order to do well in school. No serious researcher or person pushing integration as a solution has suggested that. What integration does is provide equal access to the same facilities, quality teachers, and quality education that white kids get. During the movement for integration since Brown v. Board the achievement gap narrowed significantly, but since the late 80s as school districts moved again towards segregation the achievement gap began to widen again, and this has been repeatedly studied.
It's undeniable that children of color in segregated schools have the least qualified teachers, get the worst course offerings, the least access to honors and advanced courses. They're also most likely to have high concentrations of impoverished families who go through all sorts of stresses outside of school.
Yes there is a systemic problem of racism and dispossession and inequality that affects black populations which then in turn results in worse educational facilities, instruction, and funding for majority black schools - and yes, had that been solved with a magical hand wave overnight then we also wouldn't need to look to integration as a way to narrow the achievement gap and improve educational outcomes for children of color. But telling people outright that integration is racist despite proven educational outcomes for children of color and shouldn't be pursued in favor of bigger social justice goals is foolish and doing a disservice to the very same children.
posted by Karaage at 3:07 PM on December 18, 2015 [49 favorites]
This is a bad faith reading of what I asked that you do and amounts to concern trolling.
Children of color do not magically gain intelligence points by being seated next to white children in school. They don't "need" to be around white children in order to do well in school. No serious researcher or person pushing integration as a solution has suggested that. What integration does is provide equal access to the same facilities, quality teachers, and quality education that white kids get. During the movement for integration since Brown v. Board the achievement gap narrowed significantly, but since the late 80s as school districts moved again towards segregation the achievement gap began to widen again, and this has been repeatedly studied.
It's undeniable that children of color in segregated schools have the least qualified teachers, get the worst course offerings, the least access to honors and advanced courses. They're also most likely to have high concentrations of impoverished families who go through all sorts of stresses outside of school.
Yes there is a systemic problem of racism and dispossession and inequality that affects black populations which then in turn results in worse educational facilities, instruction, and funding for majority black schools - and yes, had that been solved with a magical hand wave overnight then we also wouldn't need to look to integration as a way to narrow the achievement gap and improve educational outcomes for children of color. But telling people outright that integration is racist despite proven educational outcomes for children of color and shouldn't be pursued in favor of bigger social justice goals is foolish and doing a disservice to the very same children.
posted by Karaage at 3:07 PM on December 18, 2015 [49 favorites]
Here in Michigan we recently had a Republican state Senator say, "You can't make an African-American white." To him, data that showed divergent achievement by race meant that black kids were inherently less able. Thinking like this makes it relatively easy for people to write off struggling, majority-black school districts, on the assumption that any resources invested in trying to improve educational outcomes there will be wasted. Even more liberal folks use the reality that there are multiple factors at play, some of them having to do with the economy, with family dynamics, and so on, to suggest that the problem is too big and multi-faceted to address. I've been kind of paralyzed by this myself sometimes.
This, the lead situation in Flint, the ongoing crisis in Philadelphia, and my own local area's dichotomy between the city and suburban schools, outrage me. The decision that was made in Pinellas County that integration was no longer a goal was essentially a decision to write off black children in order to give more to white children. We make this decision implicitly all the time, but to do it so obviously and deliberately is something even worse.
I'm white, and one of my children is Black, adopted as an infant. We are not in touch with his birthparents anymore, but we know that both of them have been in and out of jail on drugs and shoplifting charges. The Tiny Tornado, now eight years old, is extraordinary. He's a gifted competitive gymnast, and also has been training dogs since he was four years old. He is self-directed, very organized, and a planner. He thinks ahead so much that he was central in planning our Thanksgiving dinner this year.
I look at him and think that his parents must have been smart and talented, too. He is a living embodiment of the potential that is squandered when we abandon neighborhoods and schools, when we decide that it's not worth putting more resources into overcoming the legacies of racism, when we decide that people of color are already doomed by cycles of poverty and it's too late to help.
This is not in any way meant to be an argument for removing black children from black families and neighborhoods. It's more by way of a lament. I love my son, but I would love even more if his other parents had always had what they needed to thrive and to parent him. How many Tiny Tornados are these people fucking over right now? Hundreds of them in those five schools alone.
I think in 2016 I'm going to pull a Shawshank on this issue and write a letter about this to somebody every day. My senators and representatives, the white house, local papers, school board members. Writing is a thing I can do.
posted by not that girl at 3:11 PM on December 18, 2015 [54 favorites]
This, the lead situation in Flint, the ongoing crisis in Philadelphia, and my own local area's dichotomy between the city and suburban schools, outrage me. The decision that was made in Pinellas County that integration was no longer a goal was essentially a decision to write off black children in order to give more to white children. We make this decision implicitly all the time, but to do it so obviously and deliberately is something even worse.
I'm white, and one of my children is Black, adopted as an infant. We are not in touch with his birthparents anymore, but we know that both of them have been in and out of jail on drugs and shoplifting charges. The Tiny Tornado, now eight years old, is extraordinary. He's a gifted competitive gymnast, and also has been training dogs since he was four years old. He is self-directed, very organized, and a planner. He thinks ahead so much that he was central in planning our Thanksgiving dinner this year.
I look at him and think that his parents must have been smart and talented, too. He is a living embodiment of the potential that is squandered when we abandon neighborhoods and schools, when we decide that it's not worth putting more resources into overcoming the legacies of racism, when we decide that people of color are already doomed by cycles of poverty and it's too late to help.
This is not in any way meant to be an argument for removing black children from black families and neighborhoods. It's more by way of a lament. I love my son, but I would love even more if his other parents had always had what they needed to thrive and to parent him. How many Tiny Tornados are these people fucking over right now? Hundreds of them in those five schools alone.
I think in 2016 I'm going to pull a Shawshank on this issue and write a letter about this to somebody every day. My senators and representatives, the white house, local papers, school board members. Writing is a thing I can do.
posted by not that girl at 3:11 PM on December 18, 2015 [54 favorites]
I am licensed to teach, but I never took a single class on classroom management, and if I were in a classroom with disciplinary issues like this, I would also be out of my depth.
I've been teaching for ten years (largely as a sub). My credential program was sorely lacking in classroom management training, same as yours. When I talk to student teachers who are doing concurrent credential & masters of ed programs, I find they also have had very little such training. And for all the professional development training that goes on in my districts (I've worked in several, and as a sub I get around to many schools), I find that classroom management is basically never the focus.
My suspicion: programs don't focus on this because it's hard. Seriously. It's especially hard for the college professor types who are usually the drivers of teacher training, because those college profs almost never have any actual experience in teaching at public schools. If faced with a serious behavior problem coupled with active resistance -- which happens all the time in classrooms -- they wouldn't know where to begin.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:12 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've been teaching for ten years (largely as a sub). My credential program was sorely lacking in classroom management training, same as yours. When I talk to student teachers who are doing concurrent credential & masters of ed programs, I find they also have had very little such training. And for all the professional development training that goes on in my districts (I've worked in several, and as a sub I get around to many schools), I find that classroom management is basically never the focus.
My suspicion: programs don't focus on this because it's hard. Seriously. It's especially hard for the college professor types who are usually the drivers of teacher training, because those college profs almost never have any actual experience in teaching at public schools. If faced with a serious behavior problem coupled with active resistance -- which happens all the time in classrooms -- they wouldn't know where to begin.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:12 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
not that girl, every time you post about your kid, I am in awe of how cool he is.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
In an era when newsrooms are cutting staff left and right, and "breaking news reporting" often means looking up someone's Facebook page for their basic demographics, it is really heartening to see such exemplary reporting, on an issue so important to the community and its future. Kudos to the Tampa Bay Times.
posted by gingerest at 5:19 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 5:19 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
My suspicion: programs don't focus on this because it's hard. Seriously. It's especially hard for the college professor types who are usually the drivers of teacher training, because those college profs almost never have any actual experience in teaching at public schools. If faced with a serious behavior problem coupled with active resistance -- which happens all the time in classrooms -- they wouldn't know where to begin.
but the standard for classroom management problems is carrot-and-stick programs ie. get a paper cut-out "fish" for good behavior, if you get enough "fish" you get a privilege like being able to go the bathroom without humiliating yourself in front of the class. i've seen this sort of thing implemented in schools with behavior problems over and over again and it's infuriating. this is what training would teach you to do.
aside from how bad US teacher training is (teachers can't be airlifted into a school with some sort of generic training and expect to succeed. teacher training should be tightly integrated with the school district of employment...) the basic problem is that it's not really about the teachers but about the students. children have to learn how to be in school; that used to be the primary mission of kindergarten. in schools where students are bring to school problems that originate outside of school, you will need more "kindergarten" before they are ready to be productive. instead, every effort has been made to enforce ridiculous academic standards at earlier and earlier ages... especially in problem schools and districts.
but, none of this is rocket science, it's all just evidence that no one is actually serious about educating poor kids in this country because, in the end, they are considered to be wastes of flesh. this country has just thrown away so many people and we just shrug...
posted by ennui.bz at 5:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
but the standard for classroom management problems is carrot-and-stick programs ie. get a paper cut-out "fish" for good behavior, if you get enough "fish" you get a privilege like being able to go the bathroom without humiliating yourself in front of the class. i've seen this sort of thing implemented in schools with behavior problems over and over again and it's infuriating. this is what training would teach you to do.
aside from how bad US teacher training is (teachers can't be airlifted into a school with some sort of generic training and expect to succeed. teacher training should be tightly integrated with the school district of employment...) the basic problem is that it's not really about the teachers but about the students. children have to learn how to be in school; that used to be the primary mission of kindergarten. in schools where students are bring to school problems that originate outside of school, you will need more "kindergarten" before they are ready to be productive. instead, every effort has been made to enforce ridiculous academic standards at earlier and earlier ages... especially in problem schools and districts.
but, none of this is rocket science, it's all just evidence that no one is actually serious about educating poor kids in this country because, in the end, they are considered to be wastes of flesh. this country has just thrown away so many people and we just shrug...
posted by ennui.bz at 5:53 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am licensed to teach, but I never took a single class on classroom management, and if I were in a classroom with disciplinary issues like this, I would also be out of my depth.
This comment will not be well taken. BUT.
Class room management is a lot less about the theory of class room management and all about the will and personality of the person leading the class.
And that is why it is seldom taught to aspiring teachers. It is almost an inborn trait.
Have at it.
posted by notreally at 6:06 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
This comment will not be well taken. BUT.
Class room management is a lot less about the theory of class room management and all about the will and personality of the person leading the class.
And that is why it is seldom taught to aspiring teachers. It is almost an inborn trait.
Have at it.
posted by notreally at 6:06 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
a way to ignore the massive, omnipresent racial segregation in places like Flint, Detroit, Chicago, Oakland, Los Angeles and so forth.
Totally a sidenote but by some measures Oakland is one of the least segregated diverse cities in the U.S. Which is not to say there's no segregation.
posted by atoxyl at 6:22 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Totally a sidenote but by some measures Oakland is one of the least segregated diverse cities in the U.S. Which is not to say there's no segregation.
posted by atoxyl at 6:22 PM on December 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Class room management is a lot less about the theory of class room management and all about the will and personality of the person leading the class. And that is why it is seldom taught to aspiring teachers. It is almost an inborn trait.
I agree that it very much comes down to the individual teacher's ability and personality, sure. That said, preparation could and would go a long way.
Programs could put much more focus on presenting different strategies for management and enact role-playing exercises among teacher candidate peers where they try out those different strategies. All of that reading material could be less about statistics and testing and more about various established management plans. We could ditch 50-90% of the bullshit personal reflection work and essays about differentiated instruction and whatnot in favor of actual preparation to teach. Would it fix everything? No, but going in with a little more practice and thought about what to do when a student is intractably misbehaved is better than what we have now.
We won't do that, though. Credentialing -- especially the upper-level stuff like masters of ed. programs and National Boards -- is less about making teachers better and more about making money off of those teachers who need those certifications to advance in their careers.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:34 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I agree that it very much comes down to the individual teacher's ability and personality, sure. That said, preparation could and would go a long way.
Programs could put much more focus on presenting different strategies for management and enact role-playing exercises among teacher candidate peers where they try out those different strategies. All of that reading material could be less about statistics and testing and more about various established management plans. We could ditch 50-90% of the bullshit personal reflection work and essays about differentiated instruction and whatnot in favor of actual preparation to teach. Would it fix everything? No, but going in with a little more practice and thought about what to do when a student is intractably misbehaved is better than what we have now.
We won't do that, though. Credentialing -- especially the upper-level stuff like masters of ed. programs and National Boards -- is less about making teachers better and more about making money off of those teachers who need those certifications to advance in their careers.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:34 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I remember being super concerned about classroom management in my teaching classes as a petite, young-looking female. My professors all told me that I should develop a "teacher voice" and a "teacher look", and voila! I would magically have total control of my classroom. In other words, figure it out, little tiger.
I've taught high school students and undergrads and I always thought teachers should be required to do a stand up routine, or take an acting class -- teaching is almost as much performance as it is education.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've taught high school students and undergrads and I always thought teachers should be required to do a stand up routine, or take an acting class -- teaching is almost as much performance as it is education.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:48 PM on December 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
Black children don't need to be in the physical presence of white children and white teachers in order to excel academically and behave appropriately. To suggest otherwise is outstandingly, blatantly racist and I'm honestly amazed that we progressives have adopted this unthinking racism.
I'm honestly amazed that in a thread about segregation in the south someone (a self-proclaimed progressive) is arguing for "Separate but Equal."
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:05 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm honestly amazed that in a thread about segregation in the south someone (a self-proclaimed progressive) is arguing for "Separate but Equal."
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:05 PM on December 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
As others have stated, this is a proven fact.
Facts? Data? Your real-world evidence has no business being compared to his abstract, ideological theorizing!
Seriously, this is how alleged liberals manage to get competed by a racist system. Get them thinking of how things SHOULD work in theory, and ignore how things actually work. Get them talking in terms of abstract perfection, and you can get them to back any status quo. It works as well for sexism, economic oppression, and all kinds of other 'isms.
posted by happyroach at 8:33 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Facts? Data? Your real-world evidence has no business being compared to his abstract, ideological theorizing!
Seriously, this is how alleged liberals manage to get competed by a racist system. Get them thinking of how things SHOULD work in theory, and ignore how things actually work. Get them talking in terms of abstract perfection, and you can get them to back any status quo. It works as well for sexism, economic oppression, and all kinds of other 'isms.
posted by happyroach at 8:33 PM on December 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
Class room management is a lot less about the theory of class room management and all about the will and personality of the person leading the class. And that is why it is seldom taught to aspiring teachers. It is almost an inborn trait.
Absolutely it is more about the inspiring leadership character than "tips and tricks" techniques. But I don't find that leadership is an inborn trait. Wasn't in the military and still isn't in the working world. Some people will be more interested in learning it than others for whatever reason, but I don't think anyone is born incapable of it.
posted by ctmf at 8:36 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
Absolutely it is more about the inspiring leadership character than "tips and tricks" techniques. But I don't find that leadership is an inborn trait. Wasn't in the military and still isn't in the working world. Some people will be more interested in learning it than others for whatever reason, but I don't think anyone is born incapable of it.
posted by ctmf at 8:36 PM on December 18, 2015 [8 favorites]
I've always assumed that a reason is that it's much easier to underfund a school (and look the other way as it fails) when those actions are only affecting people without much voice/power because their society is racist and/or structured against them. Put the kids of both backgrounds together in the same classroom and you can't get away with that.
This is also why I tend to view homeschooling and the school choice/private school movements as betrayals of liberalism when self-identifying liberals and progressives do it. If there's a problem with the approaches public schools take to education, reform the public schools, don't let politicians use financial shell games to defund and neuter the entire public school system like they've been doing.
But that opinion has caused me so much personal social grief, I'm seriously a little scared to even express it again.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
This is also why I tend to view homeschooling and the school choice/private school movements as betrayals of liberalism when self-identifying liberals and progressives do it. If there's a problem with the approaches public schools take to education, reform the public schools, don't let politicians use financial shell games to defund and neuter the entire public school system like they've been doing.
But that opinion has caused me so much personal social grief, I'm seriously a little scared to even express it again.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:09 PM on December 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
> Totally a sidenote but by some measures Oakland is one of the least segregated diverse cities in the U.S. Which is not to say there's no segregation.
The thing to remember about Oakland is that PoC are being pushed out of it house by house. There used to be two Oaklands: the Oakland of the hills, which was where rich and white people lived, and the Oakland of the flats, which was where poor PoC lived. There is a new third Oakland, though, the gentrified flats. This is a sort of distributed republic scattered throughout the second Oakland. This new geographically dispersed Oakland is rich and white, though not quite as rich and white as the hills. I used to think that the white people of the distributed territory of gentrified Oakland were on the whole trying to integrate with the people whose neighborhoods they were invading... until I looked on nextdoor.com...
As a snapshot in time it might look desegregated, but as a process played out over time, it's segregation in action.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:28 PM on December 18, 2015
The thing to remember about Oakland is that PoC are being pushed out of it house by house. There used to be two Oaklands: the Oakland of the hills, which was where rich and white people lived, and the Oakland of the flats, which was where poor PoC lived. There is a new third Oakland, though, the gentrified flats. This is a sort of distributed republic scattered throughout the second Oakland. This new geographically dispersed Oakland is rich and white, though not quite as rich and white as the hills. I used to think that the white people of the distributed territory of gentrified Oakland were on the whole trying to integrate with the people whose neighborhoods they were invading... until I looked on nextdoor.com...
As a snapshot in time it might look desegregated, but as a process played out over time, it's segregation in action.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:28 PM on December 18, 2015
@Hactar + @TKPD
The actual evidence - as in a host of well-documented papers showing strong effect sizes across multiple years + geographic areas - that black kids (when controlling for parental income, education, family structure, and school format) perform better in integrated schools is vanishingly small.
The Hanushek paper linked by Hactar acknowledges that fact, and basically attempts to invent a new "Value-added model" (Hanushek is Mr. Value-Add) inventing baselines and simulations to tease out the estimated effect size.
The strongest thing Hanushek can produce is:
In addition, it appears that proportion Black has a strong and significant effect on the mathematics achievement growth for Blacks but not for nonBlack students. A ten percent change in Black classmates yields a 3-3.5 percent change in mathematics performance for Black students.
But he tempers that with this:
The results indicate that average peer achievement affects learning, though the magnitude of the effect is quite small.
But, then again, those of us who study education know that all politically popular fixes - integration busing, busing kids to 'better' schools, charter schools, voucher schools, reduction of class sizes, computer-based learning, blended learning, all-day/all-year school, teacher merit pay, etc - have such minimal impacts that they're generally not worth pursuing (particularly considering their costs).
The best thing anybody has come up with (so far) is a sloppy argument noting the correlation in the shrinking of the black-white gap during the height of desegregation - and even then - at the height of deseg - the gap only narrowed slightly.
posted by The Giant Squid at 1:23 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
The actual evidence - as in a host of well-documented papers showing strong effect sizes across multiple years + geographic areas - that black kids (when controlling for parental income, education, family structure, and school format) perform better in integrated schools is vanishingly small.
The Hanushek paper linked by Hactar acknowledges that fact, and basically attempts to invent a new "Value-added model" (Hanushek is Mr. Value-Add) inventing baselines and simulations to tease out the estimated effect size.
The strongest thing Hanushek can produce is:
In addition, it appears that proportion Black has a strong and significant effect on the mathematics achievement growth for Blacks but not for nonBlack students. A ten percent change in Black classmates yields a 3-3.5 percent change in mathematics performance for Black students.
But he tempers that with this:
The results indicate that average peer achievement affects learning, though the magnitude of the effect is quite small.
But, then again, those of us who study education know that all politically popular fixes - integration busing, busing kids to 'better' schools, charter schools, voucher schools, reduction of class sizes, computer-based learning, blended learning, all-day/all-year school, teacher merit pay, etc - have such minimal impacts that they're generally not worth pursuing (particularly considering their costs).
The best thing anybody has come up with (so far) is a sloppy argument noting the correlation in the shrinking of the black-white gap during the height of desegregation - and even then - at the height of deseg - the gap only narrowed slightly.
posted by The Giant Squid at 1:23 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
It really seems to me that people here are misreading TKPD tendentiously. I didn't read his comments as a criticism of integration as a policy, but rather of the way that many people think about it -- that they wrongly think it is a good in itself and also that for some people there are some unexamined racist assumptions underneath their enthusiasm. The best way I've found to articulate this in my own head (as I've been mulling over the argument that arose in the wake of TKPD's comment) is that there's something about integration -- the way it was accomplished and the way people talked about it at the time -- that is quasi-colonialist and very mid-20th-century. There's stuff at the core of this aspect of integration which are the seeds for the outcome discussed in this post.
In the context of this particular post and the things that zarq highlighted, I can totally see why TKPD needed to have been much more nuanced and clear than he was to avoid giving the impression that he did. I'm pretty sure that he wasn't adopting the pro-segregation position, but I can see why his comment struck people that way. But I also think his strong rhetoric can be given a credible defense -- something about how the mindset he's criticizing undermines the purpose of integration by encouraging people to avoid thinking about and confronting the underlying structural racism and how this mindset and focus set the stage for the critics of integration and the racists to make the argument that integration "failed" (and that its failure validates their racist worldview).
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:31 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
In the context of this particular post and the things that zarq highlighted, I can totally see why TKPD needed to have been much more nuanced and clear than he was to avoid giving the impression that he did. I'm pretty sure that he wasn't adopting the pro-segregation position, but I can see why his comment struck people that way. But I also think his strong rhetoric can be given a credible defense -- something about how the mindset he's criticizing undermines the purpose of integration by encouraging people to avoid thinking about and confronting the underlying structural racism and how this mindset and focus set the stage for the critics of integration and the racists to make the argument that integration "failed" (and that its failure validates their racist worldview).
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:31 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I read some of the comments to the article (I know, I know). It's amazing how willfully obtuse Tampa Bay Times readers are about some of the information presented: principally that black students in Pinellas County do significantly worse and have many more problems than black students in other parts of Florida, even places with lower incomes and more crime. That the board promised to invest more in these schools, even potentially at the expense of the white schools, and then (with some of the same board members who still serve) did the exact opposite. That when a superintendent tried to focus on teacher retention and to glean the reasons why the county's black students were doing so much worse than their peers in other places and their pre-2007 predecessors, the board fired her and replaced her with someone who immediately ended those programs.
I can see the editorial voice in the TBT articles, but the evidence does not lead to any better conclusion than that the white board members and community easily ignore what is a major and growing problem that is destroying lives and that is a direct consequence of their actions. Less charitably it looks like a deliberate sabotage of the black community.
The larger problem may not be resegregation so much as this systemic and not particularly subtle racism that allows white lever-pullers to neglect predominantly minority public schools. But as others have said, segregating students by race makes it so much easier to do that. Integration works because it acts as a check on racist decision-making.
posted by callistus at 5:55 AM on December 19, 2015
I can see the editorial voice in the TBT articles, but the evidence does not lead to any better conclusion than that the white board members and community easily ignore what is a major and growing problem that is destroying lives and that is a direct consequence of their actions. Less charitably it looks like a deliberate sabotage of the black community.
The larger problem may not be resegregation so much as this systemic and not particularly subtle racism that allows white lever-pullers to neglect predominantly minority public schools. But as others have said, segregating students by race makes it so much easier to do that. Integration works because it acts as a check on racist decision-making.
posted by callistus at 5:55 AM on December 19, 2015
Until America stops funding schools through property taxes, there will never be equal schools, equal education, or equal opportunity. It's racism, classism, nimbyism, fuck-you-I-got-mine, and more of the worst parts of American culture, all roled into one seething mass that makes sure the children of people that can afford the most affluent areas will receive the best education, and in turn get into the best schools, get the best jobs, and so on.
I attended two high schools in the early nineties. One, Loy Norrix in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and the other, Lake Forest High School, in Lake Forest Illinois. The funding for Kalamazoo high schools worked out to $4000 per student, per year. In Lake Forest, it was $13,000. Loy Norrix offered two basic courses of study, college prep and "skills" courses for the students that everyone had pretty much written off anyway. Class sizes were too large, the school was patrolled by security who viewed the students as inmates, and at the beginning of what would have been my senior year there, less than half of the students were expected to graduate on time. When, in June, 75% managed to graduate on time, it was treated as a victory.
In Lake Forest, something like 98% of the graduating seniors go on to college. The base level courses start at college prep, and go up, through a maze of honors, AP, and tons of elective courses. Counsellors take active roles in their students lives. Utterly absent at the time in Kalamazoo, Lake Forest had rigorous programs for assisting students with learning disabilities.
How did I manage to jump from one school to the other? I had family living in Lake Forest. Literally a rich uncle who saw that I was most likely going to drop out of high school, because I was an idiot, because no one gave a damn enough to shake me out of my own bullshit. It's not right, it's not fair, that I got that opportunity and not every other student in Kalamazoo, every other student in America. It is, though, how the system works. The rich get the best schools, because they have the nicest houses, because they pay the highest taxes, and everyone else eats shit of varying amounts that get larger the further down the economic ladder they have the misfortune to be born at.
It won't end as long as property tax is the decider. There is no socially justifiable reason for schools to receive different levels of funding.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:01 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I attended two high schools in the early nineties. One, Loy Norrix in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and the other, Lake Forest High School, in Lake Forest Illinois. The funding for Kalamazoo high schools worked out to $4000 per student, per year. In Lake Forest, it was $13,000. Loy Norrix offered two basic courses of study, college prep and "skills" courses for the students that everyone had pretty much written off anyway. Class sizes were too large, the school was patrolled by security who viewed the students as inmates, and at the beginning of what would have been my senior year there, less than half of the students were expected to graduate on time. When, in June, 75% managed to graduate on time, it was treated as a victory.
In Lake Forest, something like 98% of the graduating seniors go on to college. The base level courses start at college prep, and go up, through a maze of honors, AP, and tons of elective courses. Counsellors take active roles in their students lives. Utterly absent at the time in Kalamazoo, Lake Forest had rigorous programs for assisting students with learning disabilities.
How did I manage to jump from one school to the other? I had family living in Lake Forest. Literally a rich uncle who saw that I was most likely going to drop out of high school, because I was an idiot, because no one gave a damn enough to shake me out of my own bullshit. It's not right, it's not fair, that I got that opportunity and not every other student in Kalamazoo, every other student in America. It is, though, how the system works. The rich get the best schools, because they have the nicest houses, because they pay the highest taxes, and everyone else eats shit of varying amounts that get larger the further down the economic ladder they have the misfortune to be born at.
It won't end as long as property tax is the decider. There is no socially justifiable reason for schools to receive different levels of funding.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:01 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Also, classroom management can be taught. It does require a combination of understanding fundamental principles, methods (i.e. tips and tricks that work well for the particular individual), trial-by-fire experience to hone the approach, and administrative and peer support with a clear school-wide system in place. Just knowing a few guiding principles can be transformative for a teacher thrown into an out-of-control environment. That teacher education programs don't even really attempt to train these skills is a severe indictment of that system. The Harry and Rosemary Wong and Fred Jones books are very useful IMO, but a school-wide system and adequate staff and resources to follow through is essential to having a safe building.
posted by callistus at 6:10 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by callistus at 6:10 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Class room management is a lot less about the theory of class room management and all about the will and personality of the person leading the class. And that is why it is seldom taught to aspiring teachers. It is almost an inborn trait.
Actually, I have been really impressed with the teachers at the Tiny Tornado's school, and the classroom management techniques that have come into being since I was in elementary school 40 years ago. They're very focused on catching the kids being good—I once saw his kindergarten teacher releasing kids one by one to get in line for lunch, from where they'd been sitting on the floor for story time. Kids got released as they were sitting quietly. There was one kid in the class who found such a thing nearly impossible, and she caught him in this one fleeting moment of stillness and said, "OK, Tyler is sitting quietly! Good job! Join the line, Tyler!"
There's a lot of that kind of pro-active stuff. Also a lot of communication about schedule and expectations. I don't remember, for instance, starting the day with a review of the day's schedule, which is posted. I certainly don't remember things like "morning work," which is a worksheet waiting on the kids' desks when they come in so they have something to sit down and focus on while the rest of the class is still arriving.
The presence of classroom aides is another thing I don't remember being common. In my kid's school, there was an aide present in all the kindergarten classes at all times. The aide did the little busywork things, like putting out the materials for the next activity, while the teacher kept the kids engaged as they transitioned. All these times that could so easily devolve into chaos were managed in such a way that the kids stayed focused.
The aide also did behavioral support. There was one kid in the kindergarten class who really struggled to sit still and be quiet. When the kids were gathering on the rug to listen to a story, or to the day's schedule, or anything else, she would just move near him to be ready to help him stay in control before he got in trouble.
This doesn't come from will and personality. This is from people thinking about how to improve the functioning of the classroom in a way that's supportive and positive for the kids, and from having the resources to do things like pay for photocopies for 4500 "morning pages" over the course of a year, and to pay for aides. These are things that money could help with.
posted by not that girl at 7:36 AM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Actually, I have been really impressed with the teachers at the Tiny Tornado's school, and the classroom management techniques that have come into being since I was in elementary school 40 years ago. They're very focused on catching the kids being good—I once saw his kindergarten teacher releasing kids one by one to get in line for lunch, from where they'd been sitting on the floor for story time. Kids got released as they were sitting quietly. There was one kid in the class who found such a thing nearly impossible, and she caught him in this one fleeting moment of stillness and said, "OK, Tyler is sitting quietly! Good job! Join the line, Tyler!"
There's a lot of that kind of pro-active stuff. Also a lot of communication about schedule and expectations. I don't remember, for instance, starting the day with a review of the day's schedule, which is posted. I certainly don't remember things like "morning work," which is a worksheet waiting on the kids' desks when they come in so they have something to sit down and focus on while the rest of the class is still arriving.
The presence of classroom aides is another thing I don't remember being common. In my kid's school, there was an aide present in all the kindergarten classes at all times. The aide did the little busywork things, like putting out the materials for the next activity, while the teacher kept the kids engaged as they transitioned. All these times that could so easily devolve into chaos were managed in such a way that the kids stayed focused.
The aide also did behavioral support. There was one kid in the kindergarten class who really struggled to sit still and be quiet. When the kids were gathering on the rug to listen to a story, or to the day's schedule, or anything else, she would just move near him to be ready to help him stay in control before he got in trouble.
This doesn't come from will and personality. This is from people thinking about how to improve the functioning of the classroom in a way that's supportive and positive for the kids, and from having the resources to do things like pay for photocopies for 4500 "morning pages" over the course of a year, and to pay for aides. These are things that money could help with.
posted by not that girl at 7:36 AM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I know that New Jersey took over the schools in Newark. Is there any mechanism to do this sort of thing in Pinellas?
Even if there is, the (overall) state government of Florida is even more a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Though of course it's possible that the civil servants in the state Dept of Ed are fine.
Segregation in the North, NorthEast and West tends to manifest differently. As noted by some folks upthread, in those areas of the country, some Whites choose to send their kids to charter and private schools.
Naw, the way segregation works in the north is that white people pretend that where they live in Amherst or Cheektowaga are actually different communities that are totally not part of Buffalo so they create their own school systems and leave Buffalo proper to the black people.
This is one of the few things that Florida, almost certainly by accident, does well -- all school districts are just counties, so you can't just drive black people into a different district you can ignore. The same school district has to actually ignore their black schools in a way that will hopefully find itself amenable to real fuck-you level lawsuits.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:57 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Even if there is, the (overall) state government of Florida is even more a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Though of course it's possible that the civil servants in the state Dept of Ed are fine.
Segregation in the North, NorthEast and West tends to manifest differently. As noted by some folks upthread, in those areas of the country, some Whites choose to send their kids to charter and private schools.
Naw, the way segregation works in the north is that white people pretend that where they live in Amherst or Cheektowaga are actually different communities that are totally not part of Buffalo so they create their own school systems and leave Buffalo proper to the black people.
This is one of the few things that Florida, almost certainly by accident, does well -- all school districts are just counties, so you can't just drive black people into a different district you can ignore. The same school district has to actually ignore their black schools in a way that will hopefully find itself amenable to real fuck-you level lawsuits.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:57 AM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I suggest you take the time to read the actual statistical data and research that definitively shows outcomes are improved as a result of integration if you are having trouble thinking of reasons on your own before dismissing the idea as "racist."
Right, but does integration not just lead to a more even resource split (because it makes it much less possible to direct both public and parent resources and good teachers exclusively at white kids) and thus better outcomes? And the social effect of being around better resources and greater social capital. Or does the research appropriately control for that? Because that WAS a methodology that the comment you originally responded to offered, it just considered that an effect of resource distribution, not a direct effect of black kids being next to white kids.
Like, I don't think this is an issue of disagreement about whether integration works, so much as a question of whether the reason it works can be considered to be inherent to integration, or is a factor of the systemic racism that can and will be enacted by our society on black schools under a segregated system.
i.e. it's not the being near white kids that makes the black kids perform better, it's the comparative lessening of the effects of insitutionalised racism that follows from it that makes black kids perform better, and that could at least theoretically happen without putting black kids next to white kids (in a perfect world). Why does this matter? Because the sentiment that 'being near white kids makes your test scores go up!' sounds awful like and lends a lot of credence to white supremacist narratives and ideologies. In practice that may be the only meaningful way that the effects of systemic racism can be or has been lessened in US society to the point of increasing black kids' test scores, but it's still the lessening of the burden of racism, and not the being near white kids itself that causes it. It's not the white kids' whiteness, it's their advantaged social position that makes being in their schools useful. i.e. it isn't about "white kids" at all, really, except that whiteness and privileged positions in our society are correlated.
At least that's my read.
Facts? Data? Your real-world evidence has no business being compared to his abstract, ideological theorizing!
Seriously, this is how alleged liberals manage to get competed by a racist system. Get them thinking of how things SHOULD work in theory, and ignore how things actually work. Get them talking in terms of abstract perfection, and you can get them to back any status quo. It works as well for sexism, economic oppression, and all kinds of other 'isms.
No, it's about doing a thorough analysis of what it is that the data actually shows. Occam's razor does not always apply - sometimes introducing an additional element is actually required. It's easy to look at the data and say "well, black kids being near white kids universally makes their test scores go up, guess that means being near white kids is good for black kids!" but it could be (and I would posit likely is) because of what integration does to additional factors (resource distribution, the ability of racism to systemically target black kids) and not the being near white kids IN ITSELF that is good here. Your data is not irrelevant - it is just a different interpretation of what precisely it is that it shows.
posted by Dysk at 8:46 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Right, but does integration not just lead to a more even resource split (because it makes it much less possible to direct both public and parent resources and good teachers exclusively at white kids) and thus better outcomes? And the social effect of being around better resources and greater social capital. Or does the research appropriately control for that? Because that WAS a methodology that the comment you originally responded to offered, it just considered that an effect of resource distribution, not a direct effect of black kids being next to white kids.
Like, I don't think this is an issue of disagreement about whether integration works, so much as a question of whether the reason it works can be considered to be inherent to integration, or is a factor of the systemic racism that can and will be enacted by our society on black schools under a segregated system.
i.e. it's not the being near white kids that makes the black kids perform better, it's the comparative lessening of the effects of insitutionalised racism that follows from it that makes black kids perform better, and that could at least theoretically happen without putting black kids next to white kids (in a perfect world). Why does this matter? Because the sentiment that 'being near white kids makes your test scores go up!' sounds awful like and lends a lot of credence to white supremacist narratives and ideologies. In practice that may be the only meaningful way that the effects of systemic racism can be or has been lessened in US society to the point of increasing black kids' test scores, but it's still the lessening of the burden of racism, and not the being near white kids itself that causes it. It's not the white kids' whiteness, it's their advantaged social position that makes being in their schools useful. i.e. it isn't about "white kids" at all, really, except that whiteness and privileged positions in our society are correlated.
At least that's my read.
Facts? Data? Your real-world evidence has no business being compared to his abstract, ideological theorizing!
Seriously, this is how alleged liberals manage to get competed by a racist system. Get them thinking of how things SHOULD work in theory, and ignore how things actually work. Get them talking in terms of abstract perfection, and you can get them to back any status quo. It works as well for sexism, economic oppression, and all kinds of other 'isms.
No, it's about doing a thorough analysis of what it is that the data actually shows. Occam's razor does not always apply - sometimes introducing an additional element is actually required. It's easy to look at the data and say "well, black kids being near white kids universally makes their test scores go up, guess that means being near white kids is good for black kids!" but it could be (and I would posit likely is) because of what integration does to additional factors (resource distribution, the ability of racism to systemically target black kids) and not the being near white kids IN ITSELF that is good here. Your data is not irrelevant - it is just a different interpretation of what precisely it is that it shows.
posted by Dysk at 8:46 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Because that WAS a methodology that the comment you originally responded to offered, it just considered that an effect of resource distribution, not a direct effect of black kids being next to white kids.
See my follow-up comment.
It's easy to look at the data and say "well, black kids being near white kids universally makes their test scores go up, guess that means being near white kids is good for black kids!"
I certainly never made this argument, and it's a tired strawman that keeps being brought up in here for reasons I can't quite fathom.
posted by Karaage at 10:01 AM on December 19, 2015
See my follow-up comment.
It's easy to look at the data and say "well, black kids being near white kids universally makes their test scores go up, guess that means being near white kids is good for black kids!"
I certainly never made this argument, and it's a tired strawman that keeps being brought up in here for reasons I can't quite fathom.
posted by Karaage at 10:01 AM on December 19, 2015
Probably because of how you objected rather strongly to this:
There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school. I can't think of any empirical reason why this would be true.
I mean, that seems perfectly reasonable to me - putting black kids next to white kids doesn't make them do better (the relative amelioration of the effects of racism does) but somehow that notion (without the parenthesised component) was worthy of both objection and scorn? A causes B causes C is not quite the same as A causes C, and there is indeed a lot of baggage attached to making statements that effectively say that being near white kids is good for you in a white supremacist context (like the world we live in, sadly).
If you never intended to make the argument, awesome, but it sure reads like you did.
posted by Dysk at 3:51 PM on December 19, 2015
There is an unstated assumption in a lot of school-integration literature that putting children of color next to white children will somehow make children of color "do better" in school. I can't think of any empirical reason why this would be true.
I mean, that seems perfectly reasonable to me - putting black kids next to white kids doesn't make them do better (the relative amelioration of the effects of racism does) but somehow that notion (without the parenthesised component) was worthy of both objection and scorn? A causes B causes C is not quite the same as A causes C, and there is indeed a lot of baggage attached to making statements that effectively say that being near white kids is good for you in a white supremacist context (like the world we live in, sadly).
If you never intended to make the argument, awesome, but it sure reads like you did.
posted by Dysk at 3:51 PM on December 19, 2015
It really seems to me that people here are misreading TKPD tendentiously. I didn't read his comments as a criticism of integration as a policy, but rather of the way that many people think about it -- that they wrongly think it is a good in itself and also that for some people there are some unexamined racist assumptions underneath their enthusiasm.
The thing is that leaping in with that particular critique three comments into an FPP about a series of well-researched and documented stories about resegregation that is hurting real-world Black children right now reads as concern trolling.
Of course Black children don't need to sit next to white children to have a valuable learning experience, and - as America's superb HBCUs show - dedicated educational facilities whose mission is to serve Black people are essential to resisting white supremacy. But this isn't about that. This is about systematically isolating Black children from the benefits of a public education, which can only serve to reinforce white supremacy. The reason people are reacting strongly is that's profoundly obvious, and theoretical hand-wringing about whether Black children are disserved by integration is looking firmly away from the problem at hand.
posted by gingerest at 4:36 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The thing is that leaping in with that particular critique three comments into an FPP about a series of well-researched and documented stories about resegregation that is hurting real-world Black children right now reads as concern trolling.
Of course Black children don't need to sit next to white children to have a valuable learning experience, and - as America's superb HBCUs show - dedicated educational facilities whose mission is to serve Black people are essential to resisting white supremacy. But this isn't about that. This is about systematically isolating Black children from the benefits of a public education, which can only serve to reinforce white supremacy. The reason people are reacting strongly is that's profoundly obvious, and theoretical hand-wringing about whether Black children are disserved by integration is looking firmly away from the problem at hand.
posted by gingerest at 4:36 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
The thing is that leaping in with that particular critique three comments into an FPP about a series of well-researched and documented stories about resegregation that is hurting real-world Black children right now reads as concern trolling.
Thing is, it isn't actually the resegregation that's hurting black kids - it's the racism it enables that's hurting them. If promises to ensure that the majority-black schools had the most resources had been meaningfully kept, they might not have been hurt at all, or to the same extent.
This is about systematically isolating Black children from the benefits of a public education, which can only serve to reinforce white supremacy.
Yes! Which is not the same thing as segregation, though segregation is a large part of what is enabling it here.
posted by Dysk at 4:50 PM on December 19, 2015
Thing is, it isn't actually the resegregation that's hurting black kids - it's the racism it enables that's hurting them. If promises to ensure that the majority-black schools had the most resources had been meaningfully kept, they might not have been hurt at all, or to the same extent.
This is about systematically isolating Black children from the benefits of a public education, which can only serve to reinforce white supremacy.
Yes! Which is not the same thing as segregation, though segregation is a large part of what is enabling it here.
posted by Dysk at 4:50 PM on December 19, 2015
Yeah, but if there's a real-world solution for public schooling apart from integration, I haven't seen it yet (the data suggest that charter schools can work okay for the kids who can get in, but the kids who can't are even worse off), and the arguments against integration have been entirely and successfully co-opted by racists.
posted by gingerest at 5:12 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 5:12 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Right, but that doesn't make it unimportant to note that integration isn't - as regards academic achievement - a good in and of itself, but only a good in light of what it enables. Again, in a context of racism (i.e. the real world) it's worthwhile taking pains not to effectively say 'being around white people is good for you' when actually it's 'being able to be free of racism is good for you, and integrating schools can help us achieve that'. It's good to be mindful and acknowledging of the fact that integration is only a way to improve black kids' test scores because of systemic racism.
posted by Dysk at 5:17 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 5:17 PM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's also a social benefit to integration. My son goes to a public school that's now predominantly black (white flight has such a high proportion of the white kids in home school or private school), and it's great for him. Most of his friends at school are black. His first girlfriend was black. He's never going to be able to think of black people as some weird, inhuman other. That's a good thing, isn't it? Just for the world in general?
posted by saulgoodman at 10:49 PM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 10:49 PM on December 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
That's a good thing, isn't it? Just for the world in general?
One of the schools I worked at had mostly black students and Latin American immigrants, but with a large minority of whites, a few various Asians etc. a very diverse place. It was new to me to see virtually no self-segregation in the lunchroom, in classroom tracking or anywhere. Everyone got along without any hint of race-based clannishness. And they all got access to a high-quality education with STEM specialization, extracurriculars etc.
Whereas not too far away I'd hear of outbreaks of racist or antisemitic bullying and graffiti at wealthy, predominantly white schools. I wonder where they learn that stuff?
My knowledge of geography is lacking, but I know there's a number of communities that celebrate and just accept diversity as a matter of course, tucked away in working-class neighborhoods around the country. I do believe they produce the type of people we will need in the future. I wish they got more attention.
posted by callistus at 6:31 AM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
One of the schools I worked at had mostly black students and Latin American immigrants, but with a large minority of whites, a few various Asians etc. a very diverse place. It was new to me to see virtually no self-segregation in the lunchroom, in classroom tracking or anywhere. Everyone got along without any hint of race-based clannishness. And they all got access to a high-quality education with STEM specialization, extracurriculars etc.
Whereas not too far away I'd hear of outbreaks of racist or antisemitic bullying and graffiti at wealthy, predominantly white schools. I wonder where they learn that stuff?
My knowledge of geography is lacking, but I know there's a number of communities that celebrate and just accept diversity as a matter of course, tucked away in working-class neighborhoods around the country. I do believe they produce the type of people we will need in the future. I wish they got more attention.
posted by callistus at 6:31 AM on December 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
We live in just such a neighborhood and I love it (for now, at least--my wife and I are having some marital/financial issues that may end up forcing us to leave), but the neighborhood is still struggling and hasn't recovered as much from the real estate crash as some of the trendier parts of town where all the newer development is focused. I'm hoping to be able to hold on here, because our kids already have so many friends here and love it so much (a completely integrated mix of friends with Hispanic, black, and white Southern cultural backgrounds), but there's a lot of social/circumstantial pressure to leave right now.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:26 AM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 7:26 AM on December 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Folks are debating two orthogonal issues. The presence of white people doesn't have magical halo effects on nearby people of color. Our system is one of white supremacy (#notallwhitepeople/Appalachia/class/intersectionality) and so the powers that be do not care about the wellbeing of the powerless unless it affects them as well.
If separate but equal had ever been anything but a baldfaced lie, it might have resulted in equivalent educational outcomes but that would never have solved the problem of the violence^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hracism inherent in the system. This is where the moral/social benefits of integration come in, i.e. the opportunity to get to know people rather than viewing them as an amorphous faceless other (this is not a panacea, increased contact can heighten racial animus in some circumstances).
posted by Octaviuz at 8:17 AM on December 21, 2015
If separate but equal had ever been anything but a baldfaced lie, it might have resulted in equivalent educational outcomes but that would never have solved the problem of the violence^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hracism inherent in the system. This is where the moral/social benefits of integration come in, i.e. the opportunity to get to know people rather than viewing them as an amorphous faceless other (this is not a panacea, increased contact can heighten racial animus in some circumstances).
posted by Octaviuz at 8:17 AM on December 21, 2015
There were places where separate but equal wasn't a lie, and where the schools for black children had essentially the same resources as the white schools. Topeka was one of those places; this is (presumably) part of why it was selected by the NAACP -- if it had been Brown v Board of Education of Columbia, South Carolina or some other place with gross material inequities between the black and white systems, the courts would just have told the schools to give the black schools more resources.
What the court ruled in Brown, building on empirical studies of children, was that separate cannot be equal, ever, under any circumstances, because separation creates inequality. Taking all the black children and putting them into a separate school system because blacks aren't good enough to go to school with whites has real effects on the minds of children, and giving their school system equal resources doesn't make up for that.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:36 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
What the court ruled in Brown, building on empirical studies of children, was that separate cannot be equal, ever, under any circumstances, because separation creates inequality. Taking all the black children and putting them into a separate school system because blacks aren't good enough to go to school with whites has real effects on the minds of children, and giving their school system equal resources doesn't make up for that.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:36 AM on December 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
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A person who is responsible for education actually said this. I wish I could be more surprised.
posted by Etrigan at 12:36 PM on December 18, 2015 [49 favorites]