Isa ibn-Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary)
December 24, 2015 7:48 AM Subscribe
Why more American Muslims are celebrating Christmas this year: For many Muslims, Christmas activates all kinds of anxieties. A religious holiday that challenges the Muslim interpretation of Jesus, it’s also a secular celebration—almost impossible to avoid—which is far more influential than any Muslim celebration in the West. See also: 6 things you didn’t know about Jesus in Islam.
As well as Mary being mentioned more often in the Qur'an than in the Bible, we can add that Jesus is mentioned more times in the Qur'an than Muhammad.
posted by sobarel at 8:09 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sobarel at 8:09 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Fizz: Why not make it into a fpp?
posted by I-baLL
I just used my post of the day. I think it fits in nicely here with this conversation but if you think its worthy of its own. Feel free to post it yourself.
posted by Fizz at 8:11 AM on December 24, 2015
posted by I-baLL
I just used my post of the day. I think it fits in nicely here with this conversation but if you think its worthy of its own. Feel free to post it yourself.
posted by Fizz at 8:11 AM on December 24, 2015
Meanwhile, back on the oil patch...
Sultan of Brunei bans Christmas 'because it could damage faith of Muslims'
Tiny conservative nation on Borneo warns citizens that putting up festive decorations or singing carols could threaten the country's Muslim faith
here, and there, and over the sea...
Somalia has issued a ban on Christmas celebrations in the Muslim-majority country after the Southeast Asian sultanate of Brunei announced a similar prohibition earlier this month with the threat of five years in jail.
Sheikh Mohamed Khayrow, director general of Somalia's religious affairs ministry, said on Tuesday that Christmas and New Year celebrations threatened the country's Muslim faith.
"There should be no activity at all," he told reporters, adding security forces had been ordered to break up any such festivities.
"All events related to Christmas and New Year celebrations are contrary to Islamic culture, which could damage the faith of the Muslim community."
Sheikh Nur Barud Gurhan, of the Supreme Religious Council of Somalia, also warned against celebrations, saying they could provoke al-Shabab "to carry out attacks".
posted by infini at 8:16 AM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sultan of Brunei bans Christmas 'because it could damage faith of Muslims'
Tiny conservative nation on Borneo warns citizens that putting up festive decorations or singing carols could threaten the country's Muslim faith
here, and there, and over the sea...
Somalia has issued a ban on Christmas celebrations in the Muslim-majority country after the Southeast Asian sultanate of Brunei announced a similar prohibition earlier this month with the threat of five years in jail.
Sheikh Mohamed Khayrow, director general of Somalia's religious affairs ministry, said on Tuesday that Christmas and New Year celebrations threatened the country's Muslim faith.
"There should be no activity at all," he told reporters, adding security forces had been ordered to break up any such festivities.
"All events related to Christmas and New Year celebrations are contrary to Islamic culture, which could damage the faith of the Muslim community."
Sheikh Nur Barud Gurhan, of the Supreme Religious Council of Somalia, also warned against celebrations, saying they could provoke al-Shabab "to carry out attacks".
posted by infini at 8:16 AM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is something the American Jewish community has struggled with for at least a century and a half -- at this point, between assimilation and intermarriage, I'm guessing a sizeable percentage of American Jews do some sort of nonreligious Christmas, even if it's just decorating the house and/or having a tree and the cookies before heading out to the movies and getting dim sum. But Judaism at least has Chanukah at the same time to provide an (admittedly crappier) alternative. The Muslim calendar doesn't have leap days, so their holidays aren't tied to the seasons -- when there's not a Muslim holiday in December and there is an "American" one taking over the culture around you, it's got to be much harder to fight against. Especially when you have kids.
It's an interesting argument -- what makes a religious holiday into a secular one, when most of its celebrants aren't religious anymore. I grew up in a fairly evangelical Christian community and I was taught early on (I'm pretty sure in my public school, but it's possible it was just one of my friends' parents) that the evergreen of the Xmas tree is for Jesus's eternal life, the red berries and ornaments were his blood, the tree itself was for the cross. So I can't buy the argument that it's a generic winter-holiday tree, no matter how many people say it. Or that red and green are generic colors this time of year. But on the other hand, I was raised celebrating Valentines Day and Halloween as purely American holidays, only to marry someone who was raised without them - that they are Catholic Saint's Days and even if only Catholics still see them that way, it's not an excuse for Jews to take part. We're raising our son without them, because it's important to my husband, but I have to admit it's weird to me -- to me those are American holidays about candy.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out as the American Muslim population continues to grow. I do think that American assimilation (though Bad For The Jews in general) is probably one of the best arguments against worrying about Islamic immigration here. The insistence that Christmas is a universal, non-Jesus-centric, natonal celebration of candy canes and family (and capitalism) may have evangelical Christians fuming about the War on Christmas, but it's also pretty compelling for the majority of Americans who just want to get together and enjoy the rides. The inclusiveness message about Christmas isn't aimed at proselytizing in any way - it really does seem to come from a "we're all in this together" sort of place. And that's powerful stuff.
posted by Mchelly at 8:23 AM on December 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's an interesting argument -- what makes a religious holiday into a secular one, when most of its celebrants aren't religious anymore. I grew up in a fairly evangelical Christian community and I was taught early on (I'm pretty sure in my public school, but it's possible it was just one of my friends' parents) that the evergreen of the Xmas tree is for Jesus's eternal life, the red berries and ornaments were his blood, the tree itself was for the cross. So I can't buy the argument that it's a generic winter-holiday tree, no matter how many people say it. Or that red and green are generic colors this time of year. But on the other hand, I was raised celebrating Valentines Day and Halloween as purely American holidays, only to marry someone who was raised without them - that they are Catholic Saint's Days and even if only Catholics still see them that way, it's not an excuse for Jews to take part. We're raising our son without them, because it's important to my husband, but I have to admit it's weird to me -- to me those are American holidays about candy.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out as the American Muslim population continues to grow. I do think that American assimilation (though Bad For The Jews in general) is probably one of the best arguments against worrying about Islamic immigration here. The insistence that Christmas is a universal, non-Jesus-centric, natonal celebration of candy canes and family (and capitalism) may have evangelical Christians fuming about the War on Christmas, but it's also pretty compelling for the majority of Americans who just want to get together and enjoy the rides. The inclusiveness message about Christmas isn't aimed at proselytizing in any way - it really does seem to come from a "we're all in this together" sort of place. And that's powerful stuff.
posted by Mchelly at 8:23 AM on December 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
I grew up in a fairly evangelical Christian community and I was taught early on (I'm pretty sure in my public school, but it's possible it was just one of my friends' parents) that the evergreen of the Xmas tree is for Jesus's eternal life, the red berries and ornaments were his blood, the tree itself was for the cross. So I can't buy the argument that it's a generic winter-holiday tree, no matter how many people say it.
I want to say that was your friends parents and not public school. Which is to say there are lots of nominally Christian Americans who would not recognize that description. In my culturally Catholic upbringing, that description is bonkers — crazy Protestant nonsense always taking things too far would be what I think the more sectarian would say.
It's funny too, Christmas. I don't really consider myself Christian most of the time, and I love Christmas, so I want to be like "No everyone, it is a pagan holiday, please join us!" but then I realize that may be because however little Christian I am, that is still where our family is rooted.
posted by dame at 8:37 AM on December 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
I want to say that was your friends parents and not public school. Which is to say there are lots of nominally Christian Americans who would not recognize that description. In my culturally Catholic upbringing, that description is bonkers — crazy Protestant nonsense always taking things too far would be what I think the more sectarian would say.
It's funny too, Christmas. I don't really consider myself Christian most of the time, and I love Christmas, so I want to be like "No everyone, it is a pagan holiday, please join us!" but then I realize that may be because however little Christian I am, that is still where our family is rooted.
posted by dame at 8:37 AM on December 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
I grew up in a fairly evangelical Christian community and I was taught early on (I'm pretty sure in my public school, but it's possible it was just one of my friends' parents) that the evergreen of the Xmas tree is for Jesus's eternal life, the red berries and ornaments were his blood, the tree itself was for the cross. So I can't buy the argument that it's a generic winter-holiday tree, no matter how many people say it.
Huh. I grew up in a very evangelical family, in a Baptist church, and never attended public school -- I went to a private fundamentalist high school where our 'comparative religion' course included Catholicism, because it doesn't count as Christianity, apparently. We had Bob Jones textbooks in science class.
I have never, ever in my life heard this explanation of Christmas trees before.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:40 AM on December 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
Huh. I grew up in a very evangelical family, in a Baptist church, and never attended public school -- I went to a private fundamentalist high school where our 'comparative religion' course included Catholicism, because it doesn't count as Christianity, apparently. We had Bob Jones textbooks in science class.
I have never, ever in my life heard this explanation of Christmas trees before.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:40 AM on December 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
I find this whole conversation really fascinating, as I grapple with how to blend holiday traditions with my husband here in the US. I grew up in India, with a mother from a Hindu family and a father from a Christian family (though neither is particularly religious). My parents' attitude was that we would celebrate all religious festivals. That is also the attitude that Indian secularism takes, meaning that we got holidays for Christmas and Diwali and Id and Easter and Buddha Purnima and on and on.
It certainly was wonderful as a child, that I got to burst crackers on Diwali and get presents at Christmas and get an Easter egg on Easter. Still I always thought of Christmas as particularly my own holiday, as most families around us were Hindu. We would often have big Christmas parties with many Christian and non-Christian guests. Certainly we always had a Christmas tree. It's also completely normal to wish a Hindu Merry Christmas or to say Happy Diwali to a Christian in India. It would be strange to take offense -- the thing that would be really unforgivable would be to forget to wish someone on their religion's special days -- like forgetting to say Id Mubarak to a Muslim.
My husband has mostly Jewish roots (three-quarters) and grew up in the erstwhile Soviet Union. He grew up decorating a New Year's tree and getting presents from Ded Moroz, both of which he thinks of as entirely secular.
Though we haven't in past years, this year we decided to decorate a tree. I can call it a Christmas tree if I want and he can call it a New Year's tree and thus we shall compromise. It's got us thinking about how we would preserve those traditions from our childhood that we want to hold on to in the US. There's a certain privilege inherent to being part of the majority religion in a place -- it's not just that you can celebrate if you want to, it's also that you don't have to celebrate if you don't want to because others will do the celebrating in your stead. In India, if I didn't celebrate Diwali, it didn't particularly matter since I could hardly avoid seeing and hearing the crackers and being offered sweets by neighbors. Here if I don't take note of it and celebrate it, it's just another day.
posted by peacheater at 8:43 AM on December 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
It certainly was wonderful as a child, that I got to burst crackers on Diwali and get presents at Christmas and get an Easter egg on Easter. Still I always thought of Christmas as particularly my own holiday, as most families around us were Hindu. We would often have big Christmas parties with many Christian and non-Christian guests. Certainly we always had a Christmas tree. It's also completely normal to wish a Hindu Merry Christmas or to say Happy Diwali to a Christian in India. It would be strange to take offense -- the thing that would be really unforgivable would be to forget to wish someone on their religion's special days -- like forgetting to say Id Mubarak to a Muslim.
My husband has mostly Jewish roots (three-quarters) and grew up in the erstwhile Soviet Union. He grew up decorating a New Year's tree and getting presents from Ded Moroz, both of which he thinks of as entirely secular.
Though we haven't in past years, this year we decided to decorate a tree. I can call it a Christmas tree if I want and he can call it a New Year's tree and thus we shall compromise. It's got us thinking about how we would preserve those traditions from our childhood that we want to hold on to in the US. There's a certain privilege inherent to being part of the majority religion in a place -- it's not just that you can celebrate if you want to, it's also that you don't have to celebrate if you don't want to because others will do the celebrating in your stead. In India, if I didn't celebrate Diwali, it didn't particularly matter since I could hardly avoid seeing and hearing the crackers and being offered sweets by neighbors. Here if I don't take note of it and celebrate it, it's just another day.
posted by peacheater at 8:43 AM on December 24, 2015 [21 favorites]
I, too, was brought up very strict evangelical, and was taught that christmas trees were heathen, detracted from the true meaning of christmas, and were frowned upon. Them evangelicals sure do love detailed and varied dogma.
posted by Bovine Love at 8:53 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Bovine Love at 8:53 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Mawlid (Birth of Prophet Muhammad) was on the 24th this year, which has led to some cute crossover art I saw on Facebook.
Also: Sufi ghazal renditions of Christmas carols.
posted by divabat at 9:01 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also: Sufi ghazal renditions of Christmas carols.
posted by divabat at 9:01 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
So I can't buy the argument that it's a generic winter-holiday tree, no matter how many people say it. Or that red and green are generic colors this time of year. But on the other hand, I was raised celebrating Valentines Day and Halloween as purely American holidays, only to marry someone who was raised without them - that they are Catholic Saint's Days and even if only Catholics still see them that way, it's not an excuse for Jews to take part.
This is a really odd attitude, as a fellow Jew who married a non-Jew.
Neither I, nor anybody, needs an "excuse" to take part in a holiday. The Catholics don't own those days. They have, for a long time, also been the secular holidays of Valentine's Day and Halloween, and there's nothing wrong with people doing as they wish on those days.
The Christmas symbols and colors are, at this point, just generic symbols. You're right, Chanukah is crappy. As a kid we celebrated Chanukah and a secular Christmas, and Christmas was always more fun. Since then I've always loved the Christmas rituals and symbols. I have a giant Christmas tree in my home right now, and it has nothing to do with Jesus or the Cross, I just like it.
Symbols aren't fixed and eternal features of the universe, their meanings are given by people and change over time. Whatever the "War on Christmas" types think, that battle was lost long ago, and the colors and symbols of Christmas are secularized now.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:04 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is a really odd attitude, as a fellow Jew who married a non-Jew.
Neither I, nor anybody, needs an "excuse" to take part in a holiday. The Catholics don't own those days. They have, for a long time, also been the secular holidays of Valentine's Day and Halloween, and there's nothing wrong with people doing as they wish on those days.
The Christmas symbols and colors are, at this point, just generic symbols. You're right, Chanukah is crappy. As a kid we celebrated Chanukah and a secular Christmas, and Christmas was always more fun. Since then I've always loved the Christmas rituals and symbols. I have a giant Christmas tree in my home right now, and it has nothing to do with Jesus or the Cross, I just like it.
Symbols aren't fixed and eternal features of the universe, their meanings are given by people and change over time. Whatever the "War on Christmas" types think, that battle was lost long ago, and the colors and symbols of Christmas are secularized now.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:04 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
So I can't buy the argument that it's a generic winter-holiday tree, no matter how many people say it.
One of the things Christianity is very good at is absorbing and adapting other religions' symbolism, imagery and customs. Trees have been used in pagan relivions since well before Christianity (and are referenced as such in the Old Testament), and given that most of the Chrismas festivities are heavily based on Roman pre-Christian traditions, it would be surprising in the Christmas tree wasn't adopted. There's a whole nunch of easily researched stuff out there, and many long-running arguments about exactly what influenced what, so by all means make your own mind up. (I think it's pretty irrefutable that much, if not most, of the Christmas stuff that isn't directly from the Gospels is syncretic, and TBH you can take a good long hard look at the Gospel narrative too and find much that isn't as it seems).
I'd also be surprised if Islam didn't adopt and adapt more Christian cultural influences over the next few hundred years.
posted by Devonian at 9:06 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
One of the things Christianity is very good at is absorbing and adapting other religions' symbolism, imagery and customs. Trees have been used in pagan relivions since well before Christianity (and are referenced as such in the Old Testament), and given that most of the Chrismas festivities are heavily based on Roman pre-Christian traditions, it would be surprising in the Christmas tree wasn't adopted. There's a whole nunch of easily researched stuff out there, and many long-running arguments about exactly what influenced what, so by all means make your own mind up. (I think it's pretty irrefutable that much, if not most, of the Christmas stuff that isn't directly from the Gospels is syncretic, and TBH you can take a good long hard look at the Gospel narrative too and find much that isn't as it seems).
I'd also be surprised if Islam didn't adopt and adapt more Christian cultural influences over the next few hundred years.
posted by Devonian at 9:06 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
peacheater, Thanks for sharing your story and holiday tradition.
I grew up in a Hindu household but we celebrated the more secular commercialized version of Christmas. I know my parents made this decision so that I would not feel left out when my peers celebrated the various gift-giving, decorations, lights, etc. We still celebrated Diwali but it was not as culturally recognized back then (grew up in the early 80s). I hope that things have shifted and that these kinds of Hindu traditions and holidays are more visible in culture and the media.
Many of my cousins (who have grown up and have kids of their own) have opted to not celebrate the commercialized version of Christmas and are placing more emphasis on our own traditions and heritage. My own family stopped the gift-giving, decorations, etc. many years ago. At most we just get a group of people together and have a few drinks and some good food.
posted by Fizz at 9:12 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a Hindu household but we celebrated the more secular commercialized version of Christmas. I know my parents made this decision so that I would not feel left out when my peers celebrated the various gift-giving, decorations, lights, etc. We still celebrated Diwali but it was not as culturally recognized back then (grew up in the early 80s). I hope that things have shifted and that these kinds of Hindu traditions and holidays are more visible in culture and the media.
Many of my cousins (who have grown up and have kids of their own) have opted to not celebrate the commercialized version of Christmas and are placing more emphasis on our own traditions and heritage. My own family stopped the gift-giving, decorations, etc. many years ago. At most we just get a group of people together and have a few drinks and some good food.
posted by Fizz at 9:12 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mchelly As for Christmas trees, holly wreaths, and the whole red/white/green color scheme, I'm afraid you were misinformed. Don't forget that Christmas wasn't originally part of Christiantiy and got added on in 336 and became official in 337. The stuff we think of as Christmas symbols came along a lot later than that.
It is certainly true that the Christmas tree isn't a "generic holiday tree", but the meanings you were taught for the various symbols is a fairly recent development in evangelical Christianity. The symbols themselves existed for thousands of years in pre-Christian European society as part of all manner of solstice-ish celebrations both religions and secular. Evergreen (both the tree and the holly) for rebirth indeed, but for various things (the gods and or goddesses rebirth, the rebirth of the world, etc).
There's an unfortunate atheist myth going around that Christians deliberately appropriated or stole or whatever the earlier pagan symbols as part of a nefarious plot to Christianize Europe, and that's as much a bunch of nonsense as what you were taught about the meaning of the various bits of (American) Christmas symbolism.
It is certainly true that Christianity changed to include various bits of pre-Christian cultural and possibly religious practice. But it isn't true at all that it was deliberate on the part of Christian missionaries as part of a mustache twirling plot to turn the good pagan people of Europe into evil Christians.
As Europeans Christianized they adapted their pre-Christian practices to their new faith, simple as that. If they'd always burned a yule log and hung up holly wreaths around the solstice they kept right on doing that, and as time passed new meaning got hooked onto the existing stuff. Symbolism shifts over time.
As an atheist, from a (sort of) atheist family, I've always celebrated Christmas in a purely secular way because its part of the baseline culture where I live, and because who doesn't like any excuse for a party and gift exchange?
Heck, every year Christmas gets to be a bigger thing in Japan, where only around 1% of the population is Christian, because winter holidays are nice (they already celebrate a big one at New Year's, but why not Christmas too?) and because the retailers in Japan noticed that American and European retailers got a major boost around Christmas and they decided they wanted a piece of that action too so they started aggressively marketing Christmas.
posted by sotonohito at 9:18 AM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
It is certainly true that the Christmas tree isn't a "generic holiday tree", but the meanings you were taught for the various symbols is a fairly recent development in evangelical Christianity. The symbols themselves existed for thousands of years in pre-Christian European society as part of all manner of solstice-ish celebrations both religions and secular. Evergreen (both the tree and the holly) for rebirth indeed, but for various things (the gods and or goddesses rebirth, the rebirth of the world, etc).
There's an unfortunate atheist myth going around that Christians deliberately appropriated or stole or whatever the earlier pagan symbols as part of a nefarious plot to Christianize Europe, and that's as much a bunch of nonsense as what you were taught about the meaning of the various bits of (American) Christmas symbolism.
It is certainly true that Christianity changed to include various bits of pre-Christian cultural and possibly religious practice. But it isn't true at all that it was deliberate on the part of Christian missionaries as part of a mustache twirling plot to turn the good pagan people of Europe into evil Christians.
As Europeans Christianized they adapted their pre-Christian practices to their new faith, simple as that. If they'd always burned a yule log and hung up holly wreaths around the solstice they kept right on doing that, and as time passed new meaning got hooked onto the existing stuff. Symbolism shifts over time.
As an atheist, from a (sort of) atheist family, I've always celebrated Christmas in a purely secular way because its part of the baseline culture where I live, and because who doesn't like any excuse for a party and gift exchange?
Heck, every year Christmas gets to be a bigger thing in Japan, where only around 1% of the population is Christian, because winter holidays are nice (they already celebrate a big one at New Year's, but why not Christmas too?) and because the retailers in Japan noticed that American and European retailers got a major boost around Christmas and they decided they wanted a piece of that action too so they started aggressively marketing Christmas.
posted by sotonohito at 9:18 AM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
As for my holiday traditions, in addition to hanging out with friends at a big solstice bonfire, I have Christmas tree, give presents to friends and family, and always have a beef roast with Yorkshire pudding for Christmas dinner. Because Yorkshire pudding is flipping awesome.
And I celebrate my birthday on Christmas Eve, because despite the fact that it's actually Christmas day, I like the excuse for two celebrations.
posted by sotonohito at 9:20 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
And I celebrate my birthday on Christmas Eve, because despite the fact that it's actually Christmas day, I like the excuse for two celebrations.
posted by sotonohito at 9:20 AM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Jesus is mentioned more times in the Qur'an than Muhammad.
Admittedly, for the same reason that Tashtego's name is seen more often than Ishmael's in Moby Dick.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:21 AM on December 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
Admittedly, for the same reason that Tashtego's name is seen more often than Ishmael's in Moby Dick.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:21 AM on December 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
No, not because they were lovers, though Bible/Koran slash fiction might bring about world peace.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:24 AM on December 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:24 AM on December 24, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think I like the Indian version of secularism as described by peacheater best. Why not have *all* the holidays instead of using them to draw lines?
posted by dame at 9:26 AM on December 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by dame at 9:26 AM on December 24, 2015 [12 favorites]
Because our budget for presents can only be stretched out so much.
posted by I-baLL at 9:34 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by I-baLL at 9:34 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
“Aren't we forgetting the true meaning of Christmas? You know, the birth of Santa.” ~ Bart Simpsonposted by Fizz at 9:40 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Every grammar school I attended (during the season) celebrated the Nativity Story. I once played Joseph, another time one of the wise men. I gave the baby Jesus a bag of Myrrh. I had no idea what it was, but since the Baby Jesus liked it I guess it was cool. Also Santa Claus.
Around the age of six or so we lived at the edge of a small town in the central San Joaquin Valley, just my mother and I. During the season my mother decided to take me to the only theater in town because, after the Cartoons, Santa Claus was to be on the stage with his big bag of toys for all the children who showed up. My mother was partially disabled by this time, and of course we had no automobile. A local cab driver used to take her into town now and then for free, to a doctor's appointment, or for grocery shopping. He showed up at our little cottage that afternoon to take us to the theater, and accompanied us during the show. His name was Fred. He was youngish, and he had a good heart.
Anyhow, the theater was packed, wall to wall, main seating and balcony, with kids under the age of twelve, plus a few dozen parents. The last Cartoon played and the lights went up, Santa began his ho-ho-ho's offstage, and when he walked out (still doing the ho's) the place went wild; 300 screaming kids. Santa's helpers dragged out a huge bag, and the kids began to stream into the aisles, created a squirming mob packed from exit to footlights. Facing pandemonium, Santa held up his hands and begged us to remain seated, because his Helpers would come down the aisles to distribute the gifts, one per child. He might as well been speaking Russian. Kids remained where they'd been jammed, and helpers threaded their way through them, veritably tossing the smallish, gaily-wrapped packages among the mumbling hoard. I was smart, and a believer, and I remained seated between mom and Fred.
Of course I was one of about ten kids who didn't get a gift from Santa that night, and I cried about this for days. I'm pretty sure I would have been pissed off even if I hadn't actually believed in Santa, the magic Elf from the North Pole, and his helpers, and Rudolph, but as it was I thought Santa just didn't give a shit about me (you know, the white trash kid from the itinerant field worker family). My heart was broken.
It was a couple of years before I realized that Santa wasn't an asshole--Santa was a fable, and the guy in a red suit was just....I dunno, fucking with my head. Boy, I sure felt better.
Some time later on I found out that Olive wasn't the other reindeer. By then I didn't care.
posted by mule98J at 9:49 AM on December 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
Around the age of six or so we lived at the edge of a small town in the central San Joaquin Valley, just my mother and I. During the season my mother decided to take me to the only theater in town because, after the Cartoons, Santa Claus was to be on the stage with his big bag of toys for all the children who showed up. My mother was partially disabled by this time, and of course we had no automobile. A local cab driver used to take her into town now and then for free, to a doctor's appointment, or for grocery shopping. He showed up at our little cottage that afternoon to take us to the theater, and accompanied us during the show. His name was Fred. He was youngish, and he had a good heart.
Anyhow, the theater was packed, wall to wall, main seating and balcony, with kids under the age of twelve, plus a few dozen parents. The last Cartoon played and the lights went up, Santa began his ho-ho-ho's offstage, and when he walked out (still doing the ho's) the place went wild; 300 screaming kids. Santa's helpers dragged out a huge bag, and the kids began to stream into the aisles, created a squirming mob packed from exit to footlights. Facing pandemonium, Santa held up his hands and begged us to remain seated, because his Helpers would come down the aisles to distribute the gifts, one per child. He might as well been speaking Russian. Kids remained where they'd been jammed, and helpers threaded their way through them, veritably tossing the smallish, gaily-wrapped packages among the mumbling hoard. I was smart, and a believer, and I remained seated between mom and Fred.
Of course I was one of about ten kids who didn't get a gift from Santa that night, and I cried about this for days. I'm pretty sure I would have been pissed off even if I hadn't actually believed in Santa, the magic Elf from the North Pole, and his helpers, and Rudolph, but as it was I thought Santa just didn't give a shit about me (you know, the white trash kid from the itinerant field worker family). My heart was broken.
It was a couple of years before I realized that Santa wasn't an asshole--Santa was a fable, and the guy in a red suit was just....I dunno, fucking with my head. Boy, I sure felt better.
Some time later on I found out that Olive wasn't the other reindeer. By then I didn't care.
posted by mule98J at 9:49 AM on December 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
Growing up my family never celebrated Christmas with presents or trees. But we would often have a big turkey dinner and do things like make cookies in Santa shapes, watch Christmas specials on TV and take pictures with Santa. In fact my parents got me a Santa costume and I once took a photo with Santa dressed as Santa myself. I was always aware that we were Muslims and Christmas wasn't our holiday and Santa wasn't real but to some level we did take part because it is kind of the defining event of winter here in Canada.
My wife is from Japan and so growing up she would celebrate Christmas in the secular Japanese way, which was to eat KFC and cake and maybe get a small present.
We've done trees a couple of times. My mom dislikes it but the tree isn't even a Christian thing. My daughter believes in Santa and will be getting a small present tomorrow but we're not going to be giving anything to my nephews and nieces.
At this point with the main iconography of Christmas being Santa and a tree, and its raison d'etre being to keep the retail sector afloat it feels like the secular interpretation of the holiday has won. On the one hand it is comforting because I can join in the celebrations with less worry about shirk but on the other hand it is sad to see the main point of the holiday being taken out. Similar to Easter being about chocolate bunnies and eggs now.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:26 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
My wife is from Japan and so growing up she would celebrate Christmas in the secular Japanese way, which was to eat KFC and cake and maybe get a small present.
We've done trees a couple of times. My mom dislikes it but the tree isn't even a Christian thing. My daughter believes in Santa and will be getting a small present tomorrow but we're not going to be giving anything to my nephews and nieces.
At this point with the main iconography of Christmas being Santa and a tree, and its raison d'etre being to keep the retail sector afloat it feels like the secular interpretation of the holiday has won. On the one hand it is comforting because I can join in the celebrations with less worry about shirk but on the other hand it is sad to see the main point of the holiday being taken out. Similar to Easter being about chocolate bunnies and eggs now.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:26 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
it is sad to see the main point of the holiday being taken out.
No, we still celebrate the coming of our Lord Santa.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:36 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
No, we still celebrate the coming of our Lord Santa.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:36 AM on December 24, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's a certain privilege inherent to being part of the majority religion in a place -- it's not just that you can celebrate if you want to, it's also that you don't have to celebrate if you don't want to because others will do the celebrating in your stead.
I agree, though even then it isn't necessarily easy. My family was (and is) culturally Christian but not particularly religious, and Christmas in my childhood was a series of often ineffectual attempts by my parents to find ways to sidestep both the commercialization and religiosity of the holiday while still finding meaning and ceremony. Some years that meant emphasizing the solstice and the pagan aspects, other years we were back to Christmas but either with a pagan emphasis or a deliberative simplicity.
Looking back on it I have a lot of respect for what they were trying to do, but it put them in such tension with how the holiday was presented in the public schools and in the broader culture. It would have been so much easier for them not to push back like that, but it was important to them and in a lot of ways they made it work.
I don't know how Christmas is handled in public schools these days, but in the not very progressive schools I went to they weren't shy about emphasizing the religious aspects, mostly as filtered through mainstream Protestantism.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:40 AM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I agree, though even then it isn't necessarily easy. My family was (and is) culturally Christian but not particularly religious, and Christmas in my childhood was a series of often ineffectual attempts by my parents to find ways to sidestep both the commercialization and religiosity of the holiday while still finding meaning and ceremony. Some years that meant emphasizing the solstice and the pagan aspects, other years we were back to Christmas but either with a pagan emphasis or a deliberative simplicity.
Looking back on it I have a lot of respect for what they were trying to do, but it put them in such tension with how the holiday was presented in the public schools and in the broader culture. It would have been so much easier for them not to push back like that, but it was important to them and in a lot of ways they made it work.
I don't know how Christmas is handled in public schools these days, but in the not very progressive schools I went to they weren't shy about emphasizing the religious aspects, mostly as filtered through mainstream Protestantism.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:40 AM on December 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
it is sad to see the main point of the holiday being taken out.
I'd put it somewhat differently---I'm thinking that at this point we have two holidays, a religious Christmas and a distinct secular Christmas, each with its own preceding season of preparation and angst. Secular Christmas has its own music (Frosty, Rudolph, "Jingle Bells" as opposed to, I don't know, "Good Christian men, rejoice!"), its own colors (red and green as opposed to the appropriate liturgical white), and even a different date range (just 25 December as opposed to sundown on the 24th through 5 January). Religious Christmas (as well as the Advent season of waiting and preparation) is alive and kicking; you just have to look in the appropriate places---churches and the homes of the people who are actually, you know, religious. This is as it should be, seems to me: the religious among us (myself included) can celebrate both holidays, while people of other faiths or no faith, who naturally have no interest in religious Christmas, can simply celebrate secular Christmas or some variant thereof.
Now there're places where this distinction breaks down, and I'm honestly not sure what they mean for my two-holiday model. In particular, I don't know Christmas Eve services fit into the picture: they're the core of religious-Christmas and very, very religious (scripture readings and explicitly religious music), but widely attended by people who aren't remotely religious during the rest of the year. Lessons and Carols from Kings is an interesting case study: most everybody I know (even the religious folks!) seems to be interested in it less as a church service than as an exemplar of all that is great in the Anglican choral tradition---the very best music sung by the very best choir in that tradition.
posted by golwengaud at 11:04 AM on December 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'd put it somewhat differently---I'm thinking that at this point we have two holidays, a religious Christmas and a distinct secular Christmas, each with its own preceding season of preparation and angst. Secular Christmas has its own music (Frosty, Rudolph, "Jingle Bells" as opposed to, I don't know, "Good Christian men, rejoice!"), its own colors (red and green as opposed to the appropriate liturgical white), and even a different date range (just 25 December as opposed to sundown on the 24th through 5 January). Religious Christmas (as well as the Advent season of waiting and preparation) is alive and kicking; you just have to look in the appropriate places---churches and the homes of the people who are actually, you know, religious. This is as it should be, seems to me: the religious among us (myself included) can celebrate both holidays, while people of other faiths or no faith, who naturally have no interest in religious Christmas, can simply celebrate secular Christmas or some variant thereof.
Now there're places where this distinction breaks down, and I'm honestly not sure what they mean for my two-holiday model. In particular, I don't know Christmas Eve services fit into the picture: they're the core of religious-Christmas and very, very religious (scripture readings and explicitly religious music), but widely attended by people who aren't remotely religious during the rest of the year. Lessons and Carols from Kings is an interesting case study: most everybody I know (even the religious folks!) seems to be interested in it less as a church service than as an exemplar of all that is great in the Anglican choral tradition---the very best music sung by the very best choir in that tradition.
posted by golwengaud at 11:04 AM on December 24, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have happily reached a point in my life where I can totally ignore the holidays. Well, not totally totally. So as not to be a jerk I will always return a "Merry Christmas" with, hopefully, an equally enthusiastic "Merry Christmas". I never rain on the parade by grumbling (audibly) about the oppressive commercial holiday assault. I grudgingly give up a week of listening to my classical music station when they switch into Christmas carol attack mode. Our small nuclear family, tongue in cheek, wishes each other a Happy Winter Solstice with a small gift from Amazon Prime. And, assuming I'm awake on the solstice (as I was at 22:48 CST this past Monday), I will raise an adult beverage in acknowledgement of another year passed. Merry Christmas everyone, and I mean it...
posted by jim in austin at 11:29 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 11:29 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I grew up in a fairly evangelical Christian community and I was taught early on (I'm pretty sure in my public school, but it's possible it was just one of my friends' parents) that the evergreen of the Xmas tree is for Jesus's eternal life, the red berries and ornaments were his blood, the tree itself was for the cross. So I can't buy the argument that it's a generic winter-holiday tree, no matter how many people say it. "
Uh ih, I gotta fix liturgical misconceptions. The requirement that churches have live (I.e., recently dead) plant life to symbolize Christ's eternal life (and Creation generally) dates back at least to circa 250 CE, when it appears in various liturgical manuals and travellogs.
Fir trees and holly are because a couple hundred years later, in England, in December, your choices for fresh-cut greenery are evergreens and holly and that's about it. Warmer parts of the world have Christmas Lilies, not trees. (The tree can loosely be" for" the Resurrection, but it is definitely, definitely not for the cross.) It's not a direct absorbtion of Pagan symbols, but a similar use of a limited symbolic vocabulary available. (Certainly doesn't hurt the local populace was just as happy to keep yule logs etc, but a lot of the symbolism appears in very different ways.)
The liturgical color for Christmas is white -- green is for ordinary time and red is for feasts of martyrs.
Christmas trees and holly and red and green is pretty much local vernacular English traditions magnified through the Victorian marketing machine and early department stores and sold first to England, Canada, and the US, and then (via the might of Hollywood and Coca-Cola) around the world. They are far MORE secular than they are religious, and what you got taught is ahistorical American evangelical accommodationalism to capitalist holidays -- or, more charitably, "If you can't beat em, subvert em by insisting they're actually religious."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:07 PM on December 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
Uh ih, I gotta fix liturgical misconceptions. The requirement that churches have live (I.e., recently dead) plant life to symbolize Christ's eternal life (and Creation generally) dates back at least to circa 250 CE, when it appears in various liturgical manuals and travellogs.
Fir trees and holly are because a couple hundred years later, in England, in December, your choices for fresh-cut greenery are evergreens and holly and that's about it. Warmer parts of the world have Christmas Lilies, not trees. (The tree can loosely be" for" the Resurrection, but it is definitely, definitely not for the cross.) It's not a direct absorbtion of Pagan symbols, but a similar use of a limited symbolic vocabulary available. (Certainly doesn't hurt the local populace was just as happy to keep yule logs etc, but a lot of the symbolism appears in very different ways.)
The liturgical color for Christmas is white -- green is for ordinary time and red is for feasts of martyrs.
Christmas trees and holly and red and green is pretty much local vernacular English traditions magnified through the Victorian marketing machine and early department stores and sold first to England, Canada, and the US, and then (via the might of Hollywood and Coca-Cola) around the world. They are far MORE secular than they are religious, and what you got taught is ahistorical American evangelical accommodationalism to capitalist holidays -- or, more charitably, "If you can't beat em, subvert em by insisting they're actually religious."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:07 PM on December 24, 2015 [15 favorites]
Like a lot of American Catholics, BTW, we do our religious holiday stuff during Advent and Christmas Eve, and give in to the commercialized semi-secular holiday on Christmas itself. My kids are fairly clear on the difference between religious Christmas and secular Christmas, because it's on two different days for us. Christmas Eve involves Advent carols, Mass, formal clothes, fancy dinner, family gatherings; Christmas Day is for pajamas and presents and Santa and cookies.
I do put my Christmas lights up at Thanksgiving even though I know It's liturgically incorrect (Pope lights his up tonight!) but I always leave them up until Groundhog's Day (aka Candlemas, aka the end of the Christmas Season and the beginning of Ordinary Time) like a good liturgist.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:13 PM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I do put my Christmas lights up at Thanksgiving even though I know It's liturgically incorrect (Pope lights his up tonight!) but I always leave them up until Groundhog's Day (aka Candlemas, aka the end of the Christmas Season and the beginning of Ordinary Time) like a good liturgist.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:13 PM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Jesus is not, and never was, the reason for the season. The reason for the season was always the Winter solstice, when in the northern hemisphere the cooling temperatures and shortening days and general seasonal death vibe finally reverse. The whole Christmas thing must seem really weird if you live in Australia, South America, or Africa, but most of the Earth's land mass and human population are in the northern hemisphere so there.
Evergreen trees are sacred in this season because they are still green, proving that the Earth's fertility is not totally gone. It's not rocket surgery. Especially at higher latitudes there is literally nothing to do for most of the winter, so having a big celebration at the bottom of it is just common sense. You can't have a big celebration at the summer solstice because you're too busy tending and harvesting crops.
The most common symbols of Christmas, elves and evergreen trees and gifts and such, predate and have nothing to do with Christianity. Jesus himself was more likely born in the Fall, according to what few clues we have from the Gospels.
Don't even get me started on Easter.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:31 PM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
Evergreen trees are sacred in this season because they are still green, proving that the Earth's fertility is not totally gone. It's not rocket surgery. Especially at higher latitudes there is literally nothing to do for most of the winter, so having a big celebration at the bottom of it is just common sense. You can't have a big celebration at the summer solstice because you're too busy tending and harvesting crops.
The most common symbols of Christmas, elves and evergreen trees and gifts and such, predate and have nothing to do with Christianity. Jesus himself was more likely born in the Fall, according to what few clues we have from the Gospels.
Don't even get me started on Easter.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:31 PM on December 24, 2015 [8 favorites]
You mean the Feast of the Massacre of the Peeps?
posted by XMLicious at 12:50 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 12:50 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
evergreen of the Xmas tree is for Jesus's eternal life, the red berries and ornaments were his blood, the tree itself was for the cross.
That was a thing amongst southern MO Protestants in the '50s, '60s. Might still be, maybe it was a reaction to nuclear armed communism. Who knows, symbols change and the meaning of symbols change.
A bonfire, some lightly burnt venison, and beer or whisky on a winters night. What could be better?
posted by ridgerunner at 12:55 PM on December 24, 2015
That was a thing amongst southern MO Protestants in the '50s, '60s. Might still be, maybe it was a reaction to nuclear armed communism. Who knows, symbols change and the meaning of symbols change.
A bonfire, some lightly burnt venison, and beer or whisky on a winters night. What could be better?
posted by ridgerunner at 12:55 PM on December 24, 2015
evergreen of the Xmas tree is for Jesus's eternal life, the red berries and ornaments were his blood, the tree itself was for the cross.
The Holly and the Ivy takes it back a long ways.
posted by BWA at 1:00 PM on December 24, 2015
The Holly and the Ivy takes it back a long ways.
posted by BWA at 1:00 PM on December 24, 2015
Olive wasn't the other reindeer.
Thanks, I now know its easer to clean Dr. Pepper off a tablet than a keyboard.
posted by ridgerunner at 1:05 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Thanks, I now know its easer to clean Dr. Pepper off a tablet than a keyboard.
posted by ridgerunner at 1:05 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Man, humans sure can overcomplicate a party.
I come from 3 generations of non-religious people (not atheist, or agnostic, just not caring one way or the other).
My child is the 4th generation. I'm pretty sure she couldn't tell a cross from the letter T and the only Jesus she knows is the Spanish teacher at school. Our midnight tradition is falling asleep during It's a Wonderful Life.
But we celebrate Christmas because it's fun. We sing the Dreidel song because my daughter learned the words in Kindergarten, and if we knew any Islamic traditions, we'd probably use those as well.
We have a Christmas tree because we need a place to put the ornaments we've collected during travelling, not because it symbolizes life to the Druids and we don't have an Elf on a Shelf because it's creepy.
My point is that we should all feel free to use Christmas in a way that makes us happy, not in a way dictated by someone else's rules or guidelines.
See some friends and family, have a giant meal or takeout chinese, go to Mass or go to the movies.
Or hell, just crawl into bed and wait for the whole thing to blow over.
posted by madajb at 1:07 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I come from 3 generations of non-religious people (not atheist, or agnostic, just not caring one way or the other).
My child is the 4th generation. I'm pretty sure she couldn't tell a cross from the letter T and the only Jesus she knows is the Spanish teacher at school. Our midnight tradition is falling asleep during It's a Wonderful Life.
But we celebrate Christmas because it's fun. We sing the Dreidel song because my daughter learned the words in Kindergarten, and if we knew any Islamic traditions, we'd probably use those as well.
We have a Christmas tree because we need a place to put the ornaments we've collected during travelling, not because it symbolizes life to the Druids and we don't have an Elf on a Shelf because it's creepy.
My point is that we should all feel free to use Christmas in a way that makes us happy, not in a way dictated by someone else's rules or guidelines.
See some friends and family, have a giant meal or takeout chinese, go to Mass or go to the movies.
Or hell, just crawl into bed and wait for the whole thing to blow over.
posted by madajb at 1:07 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think Chanukah is kind of the perfect holiday to have alongside Christmas because it had the potential to give great opportunity and resources to think about what it means to live as a Jew in a Hellenized and Hellenizing world, and I'd put Maoz Tzur up against pretty much any Christmas song.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:41 PM on December 24, 2015
posted by Salamandrous at 5:41 PM on December 24, 2015
Having not read moby dick, what's this mean?
>>Jesus is mentioned more times in the Qur'an than Muhammad.
> Admittedly, for the same reason that Tashtego's name is seen more often than Ishmael's in Moby Dick.
My guess is that the comparison is that Mohamed is the narrator of the Quran.
If so, the Quran is not written in a way that you would confuse Mohamed as the narrator, (whether or not you believe it is the word of God).
posted by mulligan at 8:54 PM on December 24, 2015
>>Jesus is mentioned more times in the Qur'an than Muhammad.
> Admittedly, for the same reason that Tashtego's name is seen more often than Ishmael's in Moby Dick.
My guess is that the comparison is that Mohamed is the narrator of the Quran.
If so, the Quran is not written in a way that you would confuse Mohamed as the narrator, (whether or not you believe it is the word of God).
posted by mulligan at 8:54 PM on December 24, 2015
"The reason for the season was always the Winter solstice, when in the northern hemisphere the cooling temperatures and shortening days and general seasonal death vibe finally reverse."
The minor issue with the claim that Christmas is a repurposed solstice is that Epiphany (Jan 6) is the far older celebration than Christmas and Christmas only gradually detaches from it and moves to December 25, two liturgical weeks earlier (with a variety of Jesus-related feasts between). Moreover, early Christians used the Julian - not Gregorian - calendar, so you have to do some calendar conversion math to figure out how close to the solstice Epiphany was (not terribly).
The current trendy thought is ... Tertullian wrote in about 200 CE that Jesus was crucified on March 25. (This is certainly within the range of possible dates vis a vis Passover but I've never bothered to do the math myself.) Some obscure monks get excited by this idea and write treatises about how Jesus was perfect in all ways so OBVIOUSLY he was crucified AND made incarnate on the same day. That's right: the Holy Spirit, logically, obviously, impregnated Mary on March 25. (It's a feast day, you can look.) So since he was TOTALLY PERFECT and they being celibate monks knew not a whole lot about pregnancy, they decided he would have been born exactly nine solar calendar months later on December 25 (despite Scripture suggesting springtime), as per your usual perfect pregnancy.
Well, that more or less works out with the pre-existing Feast of the Epiphany ... He gets born, and a couple weeks later is revealed to the Three Kings ... So sure! Why not! So it sticks, with all the baby Jesus feasts now squashed up into a couple of weeks on the calendar, you've got yourself a nice liturgical season. It also, Augustine notes a little later, gives Jesus's birth some nice Sol Invictus resonance to it.
Also the holiday is very well established before Christianity makes many inroads beyond the Mediterranean, while it is still a Near Eastern faith with a robust presence in North Africa; it doesn't get very Northern Hemispherey in its celebrations until later. Like agricultural festivals follow the middle eastern two-growing-season pattern, and while solstices and such pop up, not so much the "return of the sun" stuff since it doesn't go too far when you're so close to the equator, nor is winter all that significant.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:27 PM on December 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
The minor issue with the claim that Christmas is a repurposed solstice is that Epiphany (Jan 6) is the far older celebration than Christmas and Christmas only gradually detaches from it and moves to December 25, two liturgical weeks earlier (with a variety of Jesus-related feasts between). Moreover, early Christians used the Julian - not Gregorian - calendar, so you have to do some calendar conversion math to figure out how close to the solstice Epiphany was (not terribly).
The current trendy thought is ... Tertullian wrote in about 200 CE that Jesus was crucified on March 25. (This is certainly within the range of possible dates vis a vis Passover but I've never bothered to do the math myself.) Some obscure monks get excited by this idea and write treatises about how Jesus was perfect in all ways so OBVIOUSLY he was crucified AND made incarnate on the same day. That's right: the Holy Spirit, logically, obviously, impregnated Mary on March 25. (It's a feast day, you can look.) So since he was TOTALLY PERFECT and they being celibate monks knew not a whole lot about pregnancy, they decided he would have been born exactly nine solar calendar months later on December 25 (despite Scripture suggesting springtime), as per your usual perfect pregnancy.
Well, that more or less works out with the pre-existing Feast of the Epiphany ... He gets born, and a couple weeks later is revealed to the Three Kings ... So sure! Why not! So it sticks, with all the baby Jesus feasts now squashed up into a couple of weeks on the calendar, you've got yourself a nice liturgical season. It also, Augustine notes a little later, gives Jesus's birth some nice Sol Invictus resonance to it.
Also the holiday is very well established before Christianity makes many inroads beyond the Mediterranean, while it is still a Near Eastern faith with a robust presence in North Africa; it doesn't get very Northern Hemispherey in its celebrations until later. Like agricultural festivals follow the middle eastern two-growing-season pattern, and while solstices and such pop up, not so much the "return of the sun" stuff since it doesn't go too far when you're so close to the equator, nor is winter all that significant.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:27 PM on December 24, 2015 [13 favorites]
Some obscure monks get excited by this idea and write treatises about how Jesus was perfect in all ways so OBVIOUSLY he was crucified AND made incarnate on the same day.
If the Gospels imply that Jesus was born in springtime, why wouldn't they have just gone with that and said he was born and died on the same day?
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:35 PM on December 24, 2015
If the Gospels imply that Jesus was born in springtime, why wouldn't they have just gone with that and said he was born and died on the same day?
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:35 PM on December 24, 2015
Tertullian wrote in about 200 CD ... the pre-existing feast of Epiphany
But Wikipedia says that the first mention of Epiphany isn't until 381.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:47 PM on December 24, 2015
But Wikipedia says that the first mention of Epiphany isn't until 381.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:47 PM on December 24, 2015
Because he "became flesh" when he was put in Mary's belly, not when he was born. The "became flesh" is their key point. Also Third century monks have a lot of TOTALLY THEORETICAL beliefs about childbirth, like that it maybe happens by extruding the child in a beam of light through Mary's belly button to preserve her holy virginity. It helps to put yourself in that sort of mindset. He didn't become Jesus when he was born; he became Jesus when he was enfleshed in a womb.
Also, literally nobody (but the nutty monks) is making a claim the Dec 25 is Jesus's birthday; it's the Feast of the Nativity, and Feasts go where they're convenient and appropriate to the liturgical calendar, as a Dec 25 Christmas is to a Jan 1 Feast of the Circumcision and a Jan 6 Epiphany. The only days on the Christian liturgical calendar that make a claim to historical date accuracy are Easter and its associated moveable feasts*, which are set by a (slightly modified) Jewish calendar, as THAT'S WHAT THEY REFERENCE. No other liturgical Feast days should be taken as historical claims and it's pretty weird that they are. Definitely no Feast days with fixed Julian or Gregorian calendar dates should be considered as having any claims towards historical accuracy of date of commemorated event.
Lots of martyrs die on or near their Feast days, but you totally get booted three days over if someone important already has your day, or if you're seasonally inappropriate. So always a grain of salt.
*There is actually one other, and that feast is Reformation Sunday, but being so recent it's pretty easy to sort out.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:47 PM on December 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Also, literally nobody (but the nutty monks) is making a claim the Dec 25 is Jesus's birthday; it's the Feast of the Nativity, and Feasts go where they're convenient and appropriate to the liturgical calendar, as a Dec 25 Christmas is to a Jan 1 Feast of the Circumcision and a Jan 6 Epiphany. The only days on the Christian liturgical calendar that make a claim to historical date accuracy are Easter and its associated moveable feasts*, which are set by a (slightly modified) Jewish calendar, as THAT'S WHAT THEY REFERENCE. No other liturgical Feast days should be taken as historical claims and it's pretty weird that they are. Definitely no Feast days with fixed Julian or Gregorian calendar dates should be considered as having any claims towards historical accuracy of date of commemorated event.
Lots of martyrs die on or near their Feast days, but you totally get booted three days over if someone important already has your day, or if you're seasonally inappropriate. So always a grain of salt.
*There is actually one other, and that feast is Reformation Sunday, but being so recent it's pretty easy to sort out.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:47 PM on December 24, 2015 [10 favorites]
Thanks, Eyebrows. Just FYI, the Jewish equivalent is being born and dying on the same day, which is seen as a sort of mark of completion. E.g., Moses.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:11 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:11 PM on December 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah I sideeyed that too. Eyebrows, you can redeem yourself by confirming that at least you don't put the child in the creche until Christmas proper?
and the Magi not until Epiphany
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:39 AM on December 25, 2015
and the Magi not until Epiphany
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:39 AM on December 25, 2015
Wait. You have Christmas lights up from November to February?
Only in Finland.
posted by infini at 3:06 AM on December 25, 2015
Only in Finland.
posted by infini at 3:06 AM on December 25, 2015
MetaFilter: Christmas carol attack mode
posted by oheso at 5:11 AM on December 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by oheso at 5:11 AM on December 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Speaking as a secular Muslim-American, I have no anxieties and think Christmas is great. Because for me, there's no baggage! Since I have no investment in Christmas as a religious holiday or a secular holiday, I get to enjoy all the stuff surrounding it like I'm a tourist visiting a different country! It's just a nice vacation full of good food and friendly people. My family enjoys having a few days off, and we don't fuss too much about what we do during those days. Maybe we'll have a nice dinner party, maybe we won't. Maybe we'll go to the movies. Maybe we'll visit other family members. Maybe we'll just stay in. Whatever, there's no set tradition, and it's just a nice day off no matter what.
posted by yasaman at 10:14 AM on December 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 10:14 AM on December 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
The minor issue with the claim that Christmas is a repurposed solstice is that Epiphany (Jan 6) is the far older celebration than Christmas and Christmas only gradually detaches from it and moves to December 25, two liturgical weeks earlier (with a variety of Jesus-related feasts between).
Well the important point is that there was a big party in the middle of the winter, and the RCC was going to have a lot of trouble converting some of the more northern folks if they couldn't have their big party in the middle of the winter. It obviously didn't have to be exactly on Dec. 21, and there's an advantage to shifting it a bit to remove some of the Pagan tinge from it, but it's still a big party in the middle of the winter featuring elves and gifts and evergreen trees.
And while we can argue about whether Epiphany or Christmas came first I'm pretty sure there have been solstices and equinoxes for about 4.6 billion years.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:52 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well the important point is that there was a big party in the middle of the winter, and the RCC was going to have a lot of trouble converting some of the more northern folks if they couldn't have their big party in the middle of the winter. It obviously didn't have to be exactly on Dec. 21, and there's an advantage to shifting it a bit to remove some of the Pagan tinge from it, but it's still a big party in the middle of the winter featuring elves and gifts and evergreen trees.
And while we can argue about whether Epiphany or Christmas came first I'm pretty sure there have been solstices and equinoxes for about 4.6 billion years.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:52 PM on December 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cornell Discourages Menorahs from Holiday Displays, But Permits Christmas Trees
The university’s guidelines claim that the restrictions reflect the school’s ‘commitment to diversity and inclusiveness’
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:42 AM on December 26, 2015
The university’s guidelines claim that the restrictions reflect the school’s ‘commitment to diversity and inclusiveness’
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:42 AM on December 26, 2015
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Related: How the Virgin Mary Became the World’s Most Powerful Woman: Mary barely speaks in the New Testament, but her image and legacy are found and celebrated around the world. [National Geographic] It's a beautifully informative article and well worth reading. I don't mean to derail from the linked VOX article but I also found myself learning new things about faith and its complexities.
posted by Fizz at 8:06 AM on December 24, 2015 [13 favorites]