Trans Athlete Chris Mosier Is Training for the World Championships
December 29, 2015 11:25 AM Subscribe
In June of 2015, Chris Mosier, "athlete, coach, cool dude," and also a trans man, earned a spot on the US National team in Sprint Duathlon. He is now training for the world championships. But will he be allowed to compete?
Duathlon, a three-leg race whose legs are run-bike-run, is one of the six athletic disciplines under the aegis of USA Triathlon. In June 2015, the top eight competitors in each division at the US National Championships would earn places on the National team.
Chris Mosier, competing in the 35-39 age division, finished seventh. He is the first openly trans man to reach this level in any sport.
Mosier is now training to compete in the World Championships in June 2016. Whether he is part of the US delegation depends not just on his accomplishments as an athlete, but on whether, as a trans man, he will be allowed to compete under the rules of the International Triathlon Union, which, like most international sports agencies, follows the International Olympic Committee rules.
The IOC requires athletes to have:
In addition to gaining approval from ITA, Mosier will need to be cleared to compete by the World Anti-Doping Agency, which regulates the use of testosterone.
By qualifying to a national team as an openly trans athlete, Mosier has made history. He has embraced his role as an activist and role-model, granting interviews to many media outlets. He runs the site Trans* Athlete, which among other things, collects the policies of organizations ranging from the International Quidditch Association, which allows athletes to self-identify, to the Association of Boxing Commissions, whose policies vary depending on whether the athlete is transsexual or transgender, is male-to-female or female-to-male, or began transition before or after puberty. Mosier also runs the Go! Athletes mentoring program, which provides support to gay, lesbian, trans*, bisexual, and queer student athletes.
Mosier was a runner-up for this year's OutSports Male Athlete of the Year. But he is my personal hero of 2015.
If you click on only one link, choose this excellent ESPN profile, Chris Mosier: The Definition of an Athlete. It includes an excellent video, extensive background information on Mosier, and a good overview of how policies about trans athletes are and are not administered at all levels of sport. (This is the same as the second link in the front page description.)
Duathlon, a three-leg race whose legs are run-bike-run, is one of the six athletic disciplines under the aegis of USA Triathlon. In June 2015, the top eight competitors in each division at the US National Championships would earn places on the National team.
Chris Mosier, competing in the 35-39 age division, finished seventh. He is the first openly trans man to reach this level in any sport.
Mosier is now training to compete in the World Championships in June 2016. Whether he is part of the US delegation depends not just on his accomplishments as an athlete, but on whether, as a trans man, he will be allowed to compete under the rules of the International Triathlon Union, which, like most international sports agencies, follows the International Olympic Committee rules.
The IOC requires athletes to have:
1. undergone sex reassignment surgeryThis policy was enacted in 2003 and has been used as a model by many athletics organizations. It is, however, widely seen as excessively restrictive, requiring surgeries trans athletes may not have access to, or may not desire, as well as requiring legal recognition that may not be available in an athlete's home country.
2. had hormone treatments for at least two years, and
3. received legal recognition of their transitioned sex.
In addition to gaining approval from ITA, Mosier will need to be cleared to compete by the World Anti-Doping Agency, which regulates the use of testosterone.
By qualifying to a national team as an openly trans athlete, Mosier has made history. He has embraced his role as an activist and role-model, granting interviews to many media outlets. He runs the site Trans* Athlete, which among other things, collects the policies of organizations ranging from the International Quidditch Association, which allows athletes to self-identify, to the Association of Boxing Commissions, whose policies vary depending on whether the athlete is transsexual or transgender, is male-to-female or female-to-male, or began transition before or after puberty. Mosier also runs the Go! Athletes mentoring program, which provides support to gay, lesbian, trans*, bisexual, and queer student athletes.
Mosier was a runner-up for this year's OutSports Male Athlete of the Year. But he is my personal hero of 2015.
If you click on only one link, choose this excellent ESPN profile, Chris Mosier: The Definition of an Athlete. It includes an excellent video, extensive background information on Mosier, and a good overview of how policies about trans athletes are and are not administered at all levels of sport. (This is the same as the second link in the front page description.)
I'm so glad this is making the rounds. I just had a conversation over social media with Chris the other day. He's a spectacular athlete.
It really is insanely stupid that any surgery be a requirement to play sports.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:08 PM on December 29, 2015
It really is insanely stupid that any surgery be a requirement to play sports.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:08 PM on December 29, 2015
I apologize if i missed it in one of the links but is the concern about Mosier being allowed to compete under the IOC rules due to the fact that he has not had surgery? I understand that part of his advocacy platform is to have the surgical requirements removed but it wasnt clear to me whether this is a concern for him involving both his personal eligibility and what the rules should say, or if it is solely about the rules/requirements of various sporting organizations.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:11 PM on December 29, 2015
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:11 PM on December 29, 2015
from the ESPN article: When contacted to clarify the ITU's policy on transgender athletes, a representative emailed that the group does go by IOC policy: Transgender athletes must be two years post-surgery before competing.
But the ITU also said that, similar to the IOC, it does not actually enforce the guidelines itself. Instead, it relies on the national federations, such as USA Triathlon, to ensure that all IOC requirements are met when they enter their athletes into international competition. So the ITU kicks the can down another level.
For its part, USAT also says that it follows IOC guidelines -- a representative for the group told ESPN that it applies them to all 4,400 events it sponsors in America. In theory, that would have barred Mosier from competing and ever making Team USA. But when asked how USAT actually goes about enforcing its policy, a representative said the group allows people to compete in the gender that is on their driver's license. In many states, it's possible to change the gender on your driver's license without surgery. In other words, USAT says it requires transgender athletes to have had genital surgery but so far hasn't enforced that policy.
That would seem in conflict with the ITU's requirement to follow IOC guidelines. But according to an email from the ITU representative, that's OK: "If USA Triathlon uses the driver's license as an indicator of the legal recognition of an athlete's assigned sex as conferred by appropriate official authorities, then that is accepted by ITU."
This bizarre chain of policies and non-policies would seem to allow Mosier to compete in Spain, albeit technically in breach of rules. The problem, as Helen Carroll, the sports project director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, points out, is that whether the policy is enforced could change at any minute.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:17 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
But the ITU also said that, similar to the IOC, it does not actually enforce the guidelines itself. Instead, it relies on the national federations, such as USA Triathlon, to ensure that all IOC requirements are met when they enter their athletes into international competition. So the ITU kicks the can down another level.
For its part, USAT also says that it follows IOC guidelines -- a representative for the group told ESPN that it applies them to all 4,400 events it sponsors in America. In theory, that would have barred Mosier from competing and ever making Team USA. But when asked how USAT actually goes about enforcing its policy, a representative said the group allows people to compete in the gender that is on their driver's license. In many states, it's possible to change the gender on your driver's license without surgery. In other words, USAT says it requires transgender athletes to have had genital surgery but so far hasn't enforced that policy.
That would seem in conflict with the ITU's requirement to follow IOC guidelines. But according to an email from the ITU representative, that's OK: "If USA Triathlon uses the driver's license as an indicator of the legal recognition of an athlete's assigned sex as conferred by appropriate official authorities, then that is accepted by ITU."
This bizarre chain of policies and non-policies would seem to allow Mosier to compete in Spain, albeit technically in breach of rules. The problem, as Helen Carroll, the sports project director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, points out, is that whether the policy is enforced could change at any minute.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:17 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Thank you very much for all this information. Most of my athletic background comes from the lifting communities, where there is still a lot of ignorance (myself included) about the physical capabilities of cis versus trans athletes. Much of it centers around trans women and concern about advantages from body size and bone density. I think the dialogue around trans men boils down to "they'll never be as good"--as ugly as that is.
There was a website I had a link to a while ago that was good, but it mainly focused on data around disproving that trans women were especially advantaged rather than shaping policy and whatnot.
posted by Anonymous at 12:21 PM on December 29, 2015
There was a website I had a link to a while ago that was good, but it mainly focused on data around disproving that trans women were especially advantaged rather than shaping policy and whatnot.
posted by Anonymous at 12:21 PM on December 29, 2015
The problem, as Helen Carroll, the sports project director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, points out, is that whether the policy is enforced could change at any minute.
And any medals, awards, records, etc. retroactively stripped also.
posted by Dysk at 12:24 PM on December 29, 2015
And any medals, awards, records, etc. retroactively stripped also.
posted by Dysk at 12:24 PM on December 29, 2015
I think the dialogue around trans men boils down to "they'll never be as good"--as ugly as that is.
Which, of course, is not a reason to bar them from competition. If trans men can't compete with cis men then they'll just lose.
posted by kafziel at 12:26 PM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
Which, of course, is not a reason to bar them from competition. If trans men can't compete with cis men then they'll just lose.
posted by kafziel at 12:26 PM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
Trans in this context is an adjective, as is cis. Trans man. Cis man. Trans athlete. Significant whitespace.
posted by Dysk at 12:29 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:29 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
If transmen can't compete with cismen then they'll just lose.
But if they get good enough to finish anywhere but dead last, that will be a crippling blow to the masculinity of everyone they beat. Can't have that sort of thing in sports.
posted by Etrigan at 12:29 PM on December 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
But if they get good enough to finish anywhere but dead last, that will be a crippling blow to the masculinity of everyone they beat. Can't have that sort of thing in sports.
posted by Etrigan at 12:29 PM on December 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
Which, of course, is not a reason to bar them from competition. If trans men can't compete with cis men then they'll just lose.
I should make this clear: I have no objection to the involvement of trans athletes. I mentioned that point to illustrate the biases I see in the lifting community, where trans men are basically ignored. I won't say they're "accepted" because that community runs terrifically conservative--just that there hasn't been the backlash that there is against trans women.
I think this is twofold: first, women in the lifting community still struggle to be taken seriously as athletes. Many male athletes see them as sex objects first, support team members second, athletes somewhere down the line. Transphobic men in this community see trans women as a threat to "real" women--and are likely terrified at the idea that one of these women they're ogling might be XY. heaven forbid!
Second, the aforementioned assumption that trans men can't possibly compete with cis men, so they're no threat at all. Now, if we saw trans men reaching higher levels of sport . . . I bet you anything that tears and whines about testosterone supplementation would start popping up.
posted by Anonymous at 12:46 PM on December 29, 2015
I should make this clear: I have no objection to the involvement of trans athletes. I mentioned that point to illustrate the biases I see in the lifting community, where trans men are basically ignored. I won't say they're "accepted" because that community runs terrifically conservative--just that there hasn't been the backlash that there is against trans women.
I think this is twofold: first, women in the lifting community still struggle to be taken seriously as athletes. Many male athletes see them as sex objects first, support team members second, athletes somewhere down the line. Transphobic men in this community see trans women as a threat to "real" women--and are likely terrified at the idea that one of these women they're ogling might be XY. heaven forbid!
Second, the aforementioned assumption that trans men can't possibly compete with cis men, so they're no threat at all. Now, if we saw trans men reaching higher levels of sport . . . I bet you anything that tears and whines about testosterone supplementation would start popping up.
posted by Anonymous at 12:46 PM on December 29, 2015
Now, if we saw trans men reaching higher levels of sport . . . I bet you anything that tears and whines about testosterone supplementation would start popping up.
Chris Mosier is a trans man who has reached the highest level of his sport. There's no "if" anymore. It has happened. He's the only one right now (that we know about), but he won't always be.
In one of the articles—probably the ESPN one—it talks about him having his testosterone levels checked to make sure he's within the normal range for cisgendered men.
USA Gymnastics came up with a policy on trans athletes this summer. This is relevant to me as the parent of an 8-year-old trans male gymnast who we expect will go through puberty as a male, which means with supplemental hormones. The USA Gymnastics policy allows for hormone therapy under medical supervision for FTM athletes like our son, but acknowledges that not all FTM individuals desire hormone therapy or surgical interventions. It requires MTF athletes to have gonadectomy and hormone treatment. This is at levels that compete entirely within the US; at the elite level, it defers to the IOC policy, which doesn't differentiate between trans men and trans women, or acknowledge that not all trans women desire or can access genital surgery.
posted by not that girl at 12:55 PM on December 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
Chris Mosier is a trans man who has reached the highest level of his sport. There's no "if" anymore. It has happened. He's the only one right now (that we know about), but he won't always be.
In one of the articles—probably the ESPN one—it talks about him having his testosterone levels checked to make sure he's within the normal range for cisgendered men.
USA Gymnastics came up with a policy on trans athletes this summer. This is relevant to me as the parent of an 8-year-old trans male gymnast who we expect will go through puberty as a male, which means with supplemental hormones. The USA Gymnastics policy allows for hormone therapy under medical supervision for FTM athletes like our son, but acknowledges that not all FTM individuals desire hormone therapy or surgical interventions. It requires MTF athletes to have gonadectomy and hormone treatment. This is at levels that compete entirely within the US; at the elite level, it defers to the IOC policy, which doesn't differentiate between trans men and trans women, or acknowledge that not all trans women desire or can access genital surgery.
posted by not that girl at 12:55 PM on December 29, 2015 [11 favorites]
Chris Mosier is a trans man who has reached the highest level of his sport. There's no "if" anymore. It has happened. He's the only one right now (that we know about), but he won't always be.
Sorry, I'm again specifically talking about power and strength sports. Sports focused primarily on strength and/or size involve a lot of weirdness around ideas about masculinity, testosterone levels, and muscular development. Endurance athletics is not seen as "manly"--Mosier's achievement is dismissed on those grounds.
posted by Anonymous at 1:27 PM on December 29, 2015
Sorry, I'm again specifically talking about power and strength sports. Sports focused primarily on strength and/or size involve a lot of weirdness around ideas about masculinity, testosterone levels, and muscular development. Endurance athletics is not seen as "manly"--Mosier's achievement is dismissed on those grounds.
posted by Anonymous at 1:27 PM on December 29, 2015
I don't see how opposition on this one could be anything but transphobia. The controversy, as some others have brought up, with trans women competing has to do with the possibility (true or not) or an unfair advantage in muscle and bone density and so on. No such possibility exists here so there shouldn't be any controversy.
But of course there is. Ah well.
posted by Justinian at 2:07 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
But of course there is. Ah well.
posted by Justinian at 2:07 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not that this isn't pure transphobia (it is) but there is an argument relating to unfair advantages here, as referenced in this thread - testosterone supplements, fairly commonplace amongst trans men as part of a trans masculine HRT regimen, banned as doping in most sports in other circumstances. But then, I think those arguments are how transphobia is expressed in this context (much as the bone structure/muscle density canard is how it is expressed with regard to trans women athletes).
And unrelatedky, dear god do the acronyms - ftm, mtf - leave me feeling horribly fucking squick...
posted by Dysk at 3:20 PM on December 29, 2015
And unrelatedky, dear god do the acronyms - ftm, mtf - leave me feeling horribly fucking squick...
posted by Dysk at 3:20 PM on December 29, 2015
The fundamental problem is that gender is not (and has never been) purely binary. Surely at some point we're going to have to drop the idea of single-sex events altogether, except as novelties.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:36 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:36 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not that this isn't pure transphobia (it is) but there is an argument relating to unfair advantages here, as referenced in this thread - testosterone supplements, fairly commonplace amongst trans men as part of a trans masculine HRT regimen, banned as doping in most sports in other circumstances. But then, I think those arguments are how transphobia is expressed in this context (much as the bone structure/muscle density canard is how it is expressed with regard to trans women athletes).
The argument falls apart pretty quickly in any sport where medical exemptions for exogenous testosterone are allowed for cis men. (I remember reading an article in Outside that used Androgel as an example of a "common medication that contains banned substances". Androgel! Not cough medicine or whatever people are forever blaming when they get caught taking steroids.)
posted by hoyland at 3:37 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
The argument falls apart pretty quickly in any sport where medical exemptions for exogenous testosterone are allowed for cis men. (I remember reading an article in Outside that used Androgel as an example of a "common medication that contains banned substances". Androgel! Not cough medicine or whatever people are forever blaming when they get caught taking steroids.)
posted by hoyland at 3:37 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
whose policies vary depending on whether the athlete is transsexual or transgender, is male-to-female or female-to-male, or began transition before or after puberty.
I realise that this is likely their language, but I need to point out that a distinction between "transsexual" and "transgender" is generally not helpful. (Likewise spelling out "male-to-female" and "female-to-male". MTF and FTM read as dated to me, but are still in use in some reasonable contexts/places. Spelling it out makes me squirm.)
posted by hoyland at 3:40 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I realise that this is likely their language, but I need to point out that a distinction between "transsexual" and "transgender" is generally not helpful. (Likewise spelling out "male-to-female" and "female-to-male". MTF and FTM read as dated to me, but are still in use in some reasonable contexts/places. Spelling it out makes me squirm.)
posted by hoyland at 3:40 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
And for a third comment (because I can't shut up), no one knows what "sex reassignment surgery" actually means (ignoring theoretical questions about whether it can mean anything). The IOC thinks it's about genitals. Various jurisdictions would beg to differ.
posted by hoyland at 3:41 PM on December 29, 2015
posted by hoyland at 3:41 PM on December 29, 2015
Endurance athletics is not seen as "manly"--Mosier's achievement is dismissed on those grounds.
I am asking in good faith because you shifted into passive voice here and I don't understand what you're saying. Endurance athletics is not seen as manly by whom? Mosier's achievement is dismissed on those grounds by whom? Are you speaking for yourself, from observed experience, or hypothetically?
posted by not that girl at 3:58 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am asking in good faith because you shifted into passive voice here and I don't understand what you're saying. Endurance athletics is not seen as manly by whom? Mosier's achievement is dismissed on those grounds by whom? Are you speaking for yourself, from observed experience, or hypothetically?
posted by not that girl at 3:58 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
What in the everloving fuck do genitals have to do with athleticism? Are they competing in the penis olympics? The surgery requirement is completely baffling to me.
posted by desjardins at 4:08 PM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 4:08 PM on December 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
From the perspective of strength trainers, bodybuilders, power lifters, endurance stuff like ultra running is seen as less masculine but the fact is, any training you do with testicles or TRT at any point in your life does confer an advantage for years potentially because you can train harder and build muscle more rapidly. They want testes removed and HRT for two years to tamp down the advantages an "MTF" trans person might have. For trans men it's a little more complex but a lifter would see the trans person as having a disadvantage because testosterone absolutely leads to muscle mass and if you had high testosterone in your teens, your physique is permanently set, to an extent, just as a magical amount of titrated testosterone leads to sexual organ differentiation in the womb with mostly permanent repercussions
Some bodybuilders tend to have specific opinions on what male physique is appropriate and healthiest for a man, though it's foolish to speak for them all. In that context a trans man is less threatening than a trans woman because the man hasn't had a full lifetime of male levels of testosterone exposure and muscle development, whereas a trans woman is seen as having an advantage because she likely went through pubescent muscle growth with significant amounts of natural endogenous steroids - testosterone.
posted by aydeejones at 4:13 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Some bodybuilders tend to have specific opinions on what male physique is appropriate and healthiest for a man, though it's foolish to speak for them all. In that context a trans man is less threatening than a trans woman because the man hasn't had a full lifetime of male levels of testosterone exposure and muscle development, whereas a trans woman is seen as having an advantage because she likely went through pubescent muscle growth with significant amounts of natural endogenous steroids - testosterone.
posted by aydeejones at 4:13 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
The dirty secret of steroids is that they are also great for ripped, shredded, endurance Brad Pitt physiques. They are great for "bulking" where the point is to let you train with rapid recovery but more crucial for cutting where the objective is to train hard, burn fat, and never lose muscle mass. In the roid using community there's an expression about what the best steroid is - "test(osterone) is best." No I'm not a member of the community but have learned a ton about natural ways to boost my own testosterone while weight training and to some extent as a result of it.
posted by aydeejones at 4:17 PM on December 29, 2015
posted by aydeejones at 4:17 PM on December 29, 2015
In that context a trans man is less threatening than a trans woman because the man hasn't had a full lifetime of male levels of testosterone exposure and muscle development, whereas a trans woman is seen as having an advantage because she likely went through pubescent muscle growth with significant amounts of natural endogenous steroids - testosterone.
This isn't going to be true for a lot of people for very much longer. Puberty blockers are becoming common, as is HRT started in the teenage years. So trans people are going through puberty as their correct gender.
I am not a physiologist (nor an athlete) but it's hard for me to look at trans male bodybuilders and not see very similar development to many cis men. I mean, look at this guy. Or this one. Or this one.
posted by desjardins at 4:23 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
This isn't going to be true for a lot of people for very much longer. Puberty blockers are becoming common, as is HRT started in the teenage years. So trans people are going through puberty as their correct gender.
I am not a physiologist (nor an athlete) but it's hard for me to look at trans male bodybuilders and not see very similar development to many cis men. I mean, look at this guy. Or this one. Or this one.
posted by desjardins at 4:23 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah it's super complicated, and male bodybuilders will start to complain because TRT is the slickest way to hide steroid abuse. A few years of steroid cycling will catch you up super fast to a "natural" male physique and then if you're allowed (nay required) to take TRT, you can make up for the natural drop of testosterone after steroid abuse that leads to wasted muscle gains and giant glandular breast bumps. Interesting times indeed.
posted by aydeejones at 4:25 PM on December 29, 2015
posted by aydeejones at 4:25 PM on December 29, 2015
"Fortunately" it's well accepted in bodybuilding that everyone uses steroids even in natural competitions and then they use just enough TRT to have legit blood levels before competition. Basically you'd look worse if you didn't use TRT because there's a dramatic increase in estrogen after a steroid cycle without T supplementation.
posted by aydeejones at 4:27 PM on December 29, 2015
posted by aydeejones at 4:27 PM on December 29, 2015
The real drama is in UFC IMO. Joe Rogan has said some ignorant ass shit in regards to "hulking men dressed as women" theoretically beating other "natural" women into a pulp, but it's very easy to measure muscle mass very accurately so let's just have weight classes and physique classes innit?
posted by aydeejones at 4:30 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 4:30 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
so it sounds like the issue isn't trans men at all, but steroid use in cis men? why are we talking about that?
posted by desjardins at 4:35 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 4:35 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
so it sounds like the issue isn't trans men at all, but steroid use in cis men? why are we talking about that?
Because obviously that means the trans men are cheating by existing. *rolls eyes*
(Guys, that's the implication, even if you don't intend it.)
posted by hoyland at 4:39 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Because obviously that means the trans men are cheating by existing. *rolls eyes*
(Guys, that's the implication, even if you don't intend it.)
posted by hoyland at 4:39 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it's like, either we can't compete with the big boys, or we're cheating. We can't win.
Look, we get tested pretty frequently by endocrinologists to make sure our T levels are within range and won't kill us. Too high and it would be noticed.
posted by desjardins at 4:42 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Look, we get tested pretty frequently by endocrinologists to make sure our T levels are within range and won't kill us. Too high and it would be noticed.
posted by desjardins at 4:42 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
What in the everloving fuck do genitals have to do with athleticism? Are they competing in the penis olympics? The surgery requirement is completely baffling to me.
That requirement comes from the days when some countries would do virtually anything to their athletes to get Olympic medals (East Germany in particular: "Female athletes, including adolescents, experienced virilisation symptoms..."). The fear was that those countries would just claim that male athletes were female solely to enter them into competitions (and, to a lesser extent, that individual athletes from other countries would do it as well, but really it was about the Soviet bloc)-- the surgery requirement was to prove how "committed" the athlete was to being female.
It was pretty dumb then, and it's inexcusably stupid now, but that's what they were thinking. (And, as I'm sure you're aware, there are a lot of people out there who even in 2015 think that "real" trans people all want the surgery, because it's all about genitals.)
posted by Etrigan at 4:57 PM on December 29, 2015
That requirement comes from the days when some countries would do virtually anything to their athletes to get Olympic medals (East Germany in particular: "Female athletes, including adolescents, experienced virilisation symptoms..."). The fear was that those countries would just claim that male athletes were female solely to enter them into competitions (and, to a lesser extent, that individual athletes from other countries would do it as well, but really it was about the Soviet bloc)-- the surgery requirement was to prove how "committed" the athlete was to being female.
It was pretty dumb then, and it's inexcusably stupid now, but that's what they were thinking. (And, as I'm sure you're aware, there are a lot of people out there who even in 2015 think that "real" trans people all want the surgery, because it's all about genitals.)
posted by Etrigan at 4:57 PM on December 29, 2015
Lots of "real trans people" want the surgery and can't fucking afford it. It has nothing to do with commitment. (Not frustrated with you, Etrigan, just in general.) But yeah, some don't want it at all, and especially for trans men, genital surgery is pretty complicated and risky.
posted by desjardins at 5:09 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 5:09 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
II am asking in good faith because you shifted into passive voice here and I don't understand what you're saying. Endurance athletics is not seen as manly by whom? Mosier's achievement is dismissed on those grounds by whom? Are you speaking for yourself, from observed experience, or hypothetically?
Oh, jeez, I wish I came back to this sooner. Passive voice is definitely intentional because these are not my beliefs. In my original comment, I meant to convey that most athletes I talk to about the issues of trans people in athletics are from within the lifting community because those are the sports I've done.
So, they are the ones who take a dim view of endurance athletes. You know how powerlifters/bodybuilders/strongmen get stereotyped as brutish, unthinking, musclebound freaks (see: every Planet Fitness commercial ever)? Well, the flip side is the stereotype within the communities of endurance athletes as effete, emaciated weaklings.
These are not my beliefs. I have been trying to explain how attitudes about masculinity, misogyny, and musculature within the lifting communities shape their transphobic attitudes towards trans athletes, and why trans men and trans women are regarded differently.
I apologize I did not make this clear that I think those attitudes are bullcrap. And this is by no means universal, and as lifting grows more popular these attitudes are becoming obsolete. But they still exist, so I love reading articles like this that give me more references to materials I can use to talk with people about trans people in sports.
posted by Anonymous at 5:17 PM on December 29, 2015
Oh, jeez, I wish I came back to this sooner. Passive voice is definitely intentional because these are not my beliefs. In my original comment, I meant to convey that most athletes I talk to about the issues of trans people in athletics are from within the lifting community because those are the sports I've done.
So, they are the ones who take a dim view of endurance athletes. You know how powerlifters/bodybuilders/strongmen get stereotyped as brutish, unthinking, musclebound freaks (see: every Planet Fitness commercial ever)? Well, the flip side is the stereotype within the communities of endurance athletes as effete, emaciated weaklings.
These are not my beliefs. I have been trying to explain how attitudes about masculinity, misogyny, and musculature within the lifting communities shape their transphobic attitudes towards trans athletes, and why trans men and trans women are regarded differently.
I apologize I did not make this clear that I think those attitudes are bullcrap. And this is by no means universal, and as lifting grows more popular these attitudes are becoming obsolete. But they still exist, so I love reading articles like this that give me more references to materials I can use to talk with people about trans people in sports.
posted by Anonymous at 5:17 PM on December 29, 2015
A related issue is going to be people who compete equipped with prostheses. Oscar Pistorius can already meet Olympic speed requirements; the technology he uses is only going to improve. And it won't be limited to external prostheses; there's no intrinsic reason why something like a specially-designed pacemaker couldn't improve endurance. I can't see that it will be any easier to draw a line between "OK" and "not OK" prostheses than "OK" and "not OK" hormones. Ultimately, the number of people excluded from competition is going to challenge our ideas about equity in sports.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:21 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:21 PM on December 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
This isn't going to be true for a lot of people for very much longer. Puberty blockers are becoming common, as is HRT started in the teenage years. So trans people are going through puberty as their correct gender.
It's not even true now, right? I thought that once a trans woman has been on estrogen and blockers long enough her bone and muscle density drops, and trans women on average have even lower levels of testosterone than cis women. And from what I recall I thought body size differences aren't a significant contribution--not to mention the fact most cis female athletes are not going to find their training affected by the emotional and psychological toll that comes from living in a transphobic world and attempting to transition.
posted by Anonymous at 5:24 PM on December 29, 2015
It's not even true now, right? I thought that once a trans woman has been on estrogen and blockers long enough her bone and muscle density drops, and trans women on average have even lower levels of testosterone than cis women. And from what I recall I thought body size differences aren't a significant contribution--not to mention the fact most cis female athletes are not going to find their training affected by the emotional and psychological toll that comes from living in a transphobic world and attempting to transition.
posted by Anonymous at 5:24 PM on December 29, 2015
yes schroedinger, that is my understanding of the effect of HRT on trans women. As far as testosterone, the effects are largely determined by genetics (trans guy is on the left). Obviously he's put a lot of work into his body, but some guys are never going to look like that no matter how much testosterone they take.
Also, if a trans guy takes too much testosterone, it just gets converted back into estrogen.
posted by desjardins at 5:39 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, if a trans guy takes too much testosterone, it just gets converted back into estrogen.
posted by desjardins at 5:39 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
The fundamental problem is that gender is not (and has never been) purely binary. Surely at some point we're going to have to drop the idea of single-sex events altogether, except as novelties.
This would involve women being driven out of sport almost entirely. Men have significant physical advantages over women, even comparing two athletes of the same weight. Giving women their own league, like the WNBA, allows them to compete on an equal playing field. If there were a single unisex basketball league, it would be 99-100% men. It would effectively mean keeping the NBA and ditching the WNBA, which would be unfair to women.
I agree gender is not binary, but it's not unary either.
posted by foobaz at 6:08 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
This would involve women being driven out of sport almost entirely. Men have significant physical advantages over women, even comparing two athletes of the same weight. Giving women their own league, like the WNBA, allows them to compete on an equal playing field. If there were a single unisex basketball league, it would be 99-100% men. It would effectively mean keeping the NBA and ditching the WNBA, which would be unfair to women.
I agree gender is not binary, but it's not unary either.
posted by foobaz at 6:08 PM on December 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
This isn't going to be true for a lot of people for very much longer. Puberty blockers are becoming common, as is HRT started in the teenage years. So trans people are going through puberty as their correct gender.
I want to push back on this a bit. I think we're a heck of a long way off before access to puberty blockers becomes widespread and we need to not fall into the trap of acting like everyone will transition before puberty--even if everyone knew they were trans at age three, access to care is incredibly uneven, even for adults. That said, the fact increasing numbers of people are able to transition younger (be that before puberty or before they're too old for elite sport, as is really the age in question here) does tend to expose rather starkly the ludicrousness of rules made in reference to an imagined trans experience that's rather divorced from reality.
posted by hoyland at 6:10 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I want to push back on this a bit. I think we're a heck of a long way off before access to puberty blockers becomes widespread and we need to not fall into the trap of acting like everyone will transition before puberty--even if everyone knew they were trans at age three, access to care is incredibly uneven, even for adults. That said, the fact increasing numbers of people are able to transition younger (be that before puberty or before they're too old for elite sport, as is really the age in question here) does tend to expose rather starkly the ludicrousness of rules made in reference to an imagined trans experience that's rather divorced from reality.
posted by hoyland at 6:10 PM on December 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
desjardins: "What in the everloving fuck do genitals have to do with athleticism? Are they competing in the penis olympics? The surgery requirement is completely baffling to me."
I don't agree but the reasoning is probably that surgery = commitment. IE: someone who has surgery is less likely to be taking hormones solely for competitive advantage reasons. The East Germans are the classic example of the levels of bat shit crazy that some organizations will go to in order to score golds.
Joe in Australia: "And it won't be limited to external prostheses; there's no intrinsic reason why something like a specially-designed pacemaker couldn't improve endurance."
We had a post here about constant drive heart replacements which seem like they could potentially have benefits for athletes. I wonder if one of the debates 50 years from now is about how much of a person has to be flesh to qualify for the Olympics.
posted by Mitheral at 6:24 PM on December 29, 2015
I don't agree but the reasoning is probably that surgery = commitment. IE: someone who has surgery is less likely to be taking hormones solely for competitive advantage reasons. The East Germans are the classic example of the levels of bat shit crazy that some organizations will go to in order to score golds.
Joe in Australia: "And it won't be limited to external prostheses; there's no intrinsic reason why something like a specially-designed pacemaker couldn't improve endurance."
We had a post here about constant drive heart replacements which seem like they could potentially have benefits for athletes. I wonder if one of the debates 50 years from now is about how much of a person has to be flesh to qualify for the Olympics.
posted by Mitheral at 6:24 PM on December 29, 2015
I don't agree but the reasoning is probably that surgery = commitment.
I don't think this is the reasoning at all. I think it's tied up in a fixation on genitals and notions of gender being defined by genitals. They used to inspect women's genitals at the Olympics as a matter of course. Now, they've abolished "gender tests", except, of course, when someone decides you're insufficiently feminine, which we know could never have any racism involved whatsoever.
posted by hoyland at 6:36 PM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't think this is the reasoning at all. I think it's tied up in a fixation on genitals and notions of gender being defined by genitals. They used to inspect women's genitals at the Olympics as a matter of course. Now, they've abolished "gender tests", except, of course, when someone decides you're insufficiently feminine, which we know could never have any racism involved whatsoever.
posted by hoyland at 6:36 PM on December 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't agree but the reasoning is probably that surgery = commitment.
I don't think this is the reasoning at all. I think it's tied up in a fixation on genitals and notions of gender being defined by genitals.
"Commitment" and "notions of gender being defined by genitals" are basically the same thing here -- the reasoning is that if a trans female athlete has undergone surgery, then that indicates that she is really female and isn't just saying she's trans to compete against cis women; if she hasn't undergone the surgery, then clearly she doesn't have the commitment to being female and is just cheating.
(again, inexcusably stupid reasoning)
posted by Etrigan at 7:04 PM on December 29, 2015
I don't think this is the reasoning at all. I think it's tied up in a fixation on genitals and notions of gender being defined by genitals.
"Commitment" and "notions of gender being defined by genitals" are basically the same thing here -- the reasoning is that if a trans female athlete has undergone surgery, then that indicates that she is really female and isn't just saying she's trans to compete against cis women; if she hasn't undergone the surgery, then clearly she doesn't have the commitment to being female and is just cheating.
(again, inexcusably stupid reasoning)
posted by Etrigan at 7:04 PM on December 29, 2015
hoyland: The argument falls apart pretty quickly in any sport where medical exemptions for exogenous testosterone are allowed for cis men.
Yup, like I said, pure transphobia - the superficially reasonable argument is just how it is expressed because it isn't socially acceptable to say "fuck those guys" too nakedly (in many contexts).
desjardins: This isn't going to be true for a lot of people for very much longer. Puberty blockers are becoming common, as is HRT started in the teenage years. So trans people are going through puberty as their correct gender.
SOME trans people. We don't all come out in childhood. Even if everyone everywhere could be guaranteed supportive parents and access to transition related healthcare in childhood, we wouldn't all go through puberty as our correct gender.
aydeejones: The real drama is in UFC IMO. Joe Rogan has said some ignorant ass shit in regards to "hulking men dressed as women" theoretically beating other "natural" women into a pulp, but it's very easy to measure muscle mass very accurately so let's just have weight classes and physique classes innit?
Can we not bring transmisogyny derails into this? We've had this discussion countless times on MeFi, let's not start talking about how trans women can't compete with cis women but I'm totally not transphobic because muscle mass yet again, hey? It's not what the post is about. We don't need to have this 'discussion' here again.
posted by Dysk at 12:07 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yup, like I said, pure transphobia - the superficially reasonable argument is just how it is expressed because it isn't socially acceptable to say "fuck those guys" too nakedly (in many contexts).
desjardins: This isn't going to be true for a lot of people for very much longer. Puberty blockers are becoming common, as is HRT started in the teenage years. So trans people are going through puberty as their correct gender.
SOME trans people. We don't all come out in childhood. Even if everyone everywhere could be guaranteed supportive parents and access to transition related healthcare in childhood, we wouldn't all go through puberty as our correct gender.
aydeejones: The real drama is in UFC IMO. Joe Rogan has said some ignorant ass shit in regards to "hulking men dressed as women" theoretically beating other "natural" women into a pulp, but it's very easy to measure muscle mass very accurately so let's just have weight classes and physique classes innit?
Can we not bring transmisogyny derails into this? We've had this discussion countless times on MeFi, let's not start talking about how trans women can't compete with cis women but I'm totally not transphobic because muscle mass yet again, hey? It's not what the post is about. We don't need to have this 'discussion' here again.
posted by Dysk at 12:07 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Commitment" and "notions of gender being defined by genitals" are basically the same thing here
I'm saying that the "commitment" argument is a smokescreen.
posted by hoyland at 5:36 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm saying that the "commitment" argument is a smokescreen.
posted by hoyland at 5:36 AM on December 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Commitment" and "notions of gender being defined by genitals" are basically the same thing here
I'm saying that the "commitment" argument is a smokescreen.
Look at the two-year requirement. What the IOC is saying is not only that you have to have the "correct" genitals, but that you have to have had them for a while. They have a similar (albeit waivable) requirement for changes in nationality (1-page PDF) between Olympics because of a fear of people "shopping" their abilities around to whatever country will pay them the most.
Yes, there's absolutely a huge component of "penis=boy, vagina=girl, and that's just the way it is" thinking there, but there's also thinking to the effect of "If you're really trans, that means you want your genitals to adhere to that binary, otherwise you're just pretending so you can compete against women."
posted by Etrigan at 6:11 AM on December 30, 2015
I'm saying that the "commitment" argument is a smokescreen.
Look at the two-year requirement. What the IOC is saying is not only that you have to have the "correct" genitals, but that you have to have had them for a while. They have a similar (albeit waivable) requirement for changes in nationality (1-page PDF) between Olympics because of a fear of people "shopping" their abilities around to whatever country will pay them the most.
Yes, there's absolutely a huge component of "penis=boy, vagina=girl, and that's just the way it is" thinking there, but there's also thinking to the effect of "If you're really trans, that means you want your genitals to adhere to that binary, otherwise you're just pretending so you can compete against women."
posted by Etrigan at 6:11 AM on December 30, 2015
The idea of a "level playing field" is such a weird canard in issues like this, too. Sports absolutely do not involve a level playing field. Some people are bigger and stronger than others; have higher aerobic capacity; have bodies that respond faster to training. Have better genetics. Sport and competition don't somehow start out equal and suss out the best people. They start and end unequal and in the middle they allow for some manipulation of some variables.
posted by entropone at 7:05 AM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by entropone at 7:05 AM on December 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
people who make the surgery requirement pretty much never understand what they're talking about or what they're asking for, especially when it comes to trans men.
posted by nadawi at 7:11 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:11 AM on December 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
They have a similar (albeit waivable) requirement for changes in nationality (1-page PDF) between Olympics because of a fear of people "shopping" their abilities around to whatever country will pay them the most.
One of these things has actually happened. The other, as far as I know, hasn't and is about trans people (especially trans women! note that we only talk about "cheating" your way into women's competition) being deceptive.
posted by hoyland at 6:07 AM on December 31, 2015
One of these things has actually happened. The other, as far as I know, hasn't and is about trans people (especially trans women! note that we only talk about "cheating" your way into women's competition) being deceptive.
posted by hoyland at 6:07 AM on December 31, 2015
Well to be fair that is likely because 4-6th place men would dominate most female competitions whereas even top women would be also rans in open/mens competitions. "Cheating" that doesn't result in a win is much less of a concern than that which does.
posted by Mitheral at 9:21 AM on December 31, 2015
posted by Mitheral at 9:21 AM on December 31, 2015
One of these things has actually happened. The other, as far as I know, hasn't ...
Just to say it once, and then I'm done: I am not in any way defending the IOC's policy. I have called it dumb and stupid on multiple occasions. I am just saying what I believe the (dumb and stupid) thinking behind it was.
posted by Etrigan at 10:18 AM on December 31, 2015
Just to say it once, and then I'm done: I am not in any way defending the IOC's policy. I have called it dumb and stupid on multiple occasions. I am just saying what I believe the (dumb and stupid) thinking behind it was.
posted by Etrigan at 10:18 AM on December 31, 2015
Well to be fair that is likely because 4-6th place men would dominate most female competitions whereas even top women would be also rans in open/mens competitions.
OK, but what are you talking about? Is anyone saying that men should compete in women competitions? No, they're saying that trans women should compete in women's competitions. Because trans women are women. (And trans men are men.) It has been proven multiple times that trans women do not necessarily dominate whatever sport they try, with or without genital surgery (look at Fallon Fox).
I am fine with testing hormone levels to verify that everyone is within typical ranges. But only if they test everyone, because we've had lots of doping scandals involving testosterone. But this "men entering women's competitions" is just as much of a red herring and scare tactic as "men using women's bathrooms." I don't believe that the vast majority of men, 99.99%, want to be seen as women. They would almost instantly be caught because high profile winners are photographed quite a bit - are they going to wear drag 100% of the time?
posted by desjardins at 12:52 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
OK, but what are you talking about? Is anyone saying that men should compete in women competitions? No, they're saying that trans women should compete in women's competitions. Because trans women are women. (And trans men are men.) It has been proven multiple times that trans women do not necessarily dominate whatever sport they try, with or without genital surgery (look at Fallon Fox).
I am fine with testing hormone levels to verify that everyone is within typical ranges. But only if they test everyone, because we've had lots of doping scandals involving testosterone. But this "men entering women's competitions" is just as much of a red herring and scare tactic as "men using women's bathrooms." I don't believe that the vast majority of men, 99.99%, want to be seen as women. They would almost instantly be caught because high profile winners are photographed quite a bit - are they going to wear drag 100% of the time?
posted by desjardins at 12:52 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am fine with testing hormone levels to verify that everyone is within typical ranges. But only if they test everyone
I think this is where things will eventually end up. There will be a range of acceptable levels for the men's competition and for the women's competition.
posted by Justinian at 1:28 PM on December 31, 2015
I think this is where things will eventually end up. There will be a range of acceptable levels for the men's competition and for the women's competition.
posted by Justinian at 1:28 PM on December 31, 2015
desjardins: "OK, but what are you talking about?"
Hoyland said: "especially trans women! note that we only talk about "cheating" your way into women's competition"
I was just saying that one of the reasons we don't talk about cheating ones way into men's competitions is there is less to be gained that way. IE: not misogyny just relevance.
posted by Mitheral at 2:52 PM on December 31, 2015
Hoyland said: "especially trans women! note that we only talk about "cheating" your way into women's competition"
I was just saying that one of the reasons we don't talk about cheating ones way into men's competitions is there is less to be gained that way. IE: not misogyny just relevance.
posted by Mitheral at 2:52 PM on December 31, 2015
there is no way to separate the transmisogyny out of any discussion about trans women "cheating" by putting themselves forward as women.
posted by nadawi at 3:10 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 3:10 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
ayup, that's how they get killed, because they are perceived as "tricking" people. So "cheating" or whatever should never be in a conversation about trans women.
posted by desjardins at 5:58 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by desjardins at 5:58 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by not that girl at 11:32 AM on December 29, 2015