Oregon Under Attack

January 3, 2016 10:00 AM

An armed right-wing militia has occupied a federal building and plans to stay for "years." Here is a bit of background to this issue, which has been brewing for years in rural Oregon. Social media has taken note of the response both from authorities and the general media to this action, drawing out the disparities between the response to black vs. white civil disobedience.
posted by thelaze (3662 comments total)

Guess they won 't be wanting to,....oh.....eat anytime soon. "years"...long time.
posted by Freedomboy at 10:02 AM on January 3, 2016

Previously.
posted by Fizz at 10:02 AM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Air strikes.
posted by dirtdirt at 10:02 AM on January 3, 2016 [23 favorites]

The discrepancy between how the 'black lives matter' movement was/is being portrayed in the media versus how these terrorists are being treated is mind boggling. Just a reminder: in Ferguson, 150 unarmed black people occupied a blocked off street, they were gassed, sprayed and shot with rubber bullets.

Also, pay attention to the type of language that is being used by the media:

VISIBLE MINORITIES: gangbangers, dissidents, radicals, terrorists
WHITE MILITIA: gun enthusiasts, protesters, occupiers

Fucking outrageous.
posted by Fizz at 10:05 AM on January 3, 2016 [295 favorites]

An Oregonian friend of mine tweeted the best summary of what's going on I've seen

Mandatory minimum sentencing laws backfiring against those who wanted them to fight so-called "Eco-terrorists". Boo-hoo.

In addition to the racial angle on what's happening, there's also the insane thing about homegrown insurgency. Gun nuts like to babble about how gun ownership prevents tyranny, that an armed populace is a free populace, etc. This action in Oregon is a demonstration of that principle. People with guns are trying to overthrow (a tiny part of) the federal government. It is terrifying.
posted by Nelson at 10:08 AM on January 3, 2016 [52 favorites]

I hope that all of these guys go to jail for a long, long time. I don't think that will happen, but I hope it does.
posted by Aizkolari at 10:08 AM on January 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

Can't wait for Trump to comment.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:09 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

The discrepancy between how the 'black lives matter' movement was/is being portrayed in the media versus how these terrorists are being treated is mind boggling.

Well, you are also talking about the difference between local Missouri police (and later Missouri National Guard) and the federal government.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:09 AM on January 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

Well, you are also talking about the difference between local Missouri police (and later Missouri National Guard) and the federal government.

The latter of whom remember all the shit they got after Waco and Ruby Ridge, and are happy to let the morons get bored and go home.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:13 AM on January 3, 2016 [29 favorites]

This is why everyone on Daddy Bundy's compound needed to be arrested.
posted by PMdixon at 10:14 AM on January 3, 2016 [36 favorites]

Some of the same armed “militia” involved in the Cliven Bundy affair in Nevada have occupied federal land in Oregon formerly reserved for the Northern Paiute. Ironically, the “legal” basis for starting a fight with the federal government is that sovereignty “really” belongs to Oregon rather than the Paiutes, who have seen their federal trust land shrink from over one and a half million acres to a tiny remnant of 760 acres in Burns, Oregon, where this current armed standoff began.

Bundy Militia Musters Again Over Paiute Land
posted by graymouser at 10:14 AM on January 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

This is what the second amendment is for, right? All those deaths, yearly, so this can happen?

Hope it seems worth it.
posted by Artw at 10:14 AM on January 3, 2016 [71 favorites]

Freedom loving pack of lone wolves demands handouts from the Federal government.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:15 AM on January 3, 2016 [122 favorites]

Guess they won 't be wanting to,....oh.....eat anytime soon. "years"...long time.

I thought so too, but apparently Law Enforcement is letting them receive deliveries. (WTF)
posted by drezdn at 10:16 AM on January 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

Wow, the "federal building" headlines are terrible. This is some park headquarters building, that is, a building owned by the federal government, not an actual federal building (big office building housing federal agencies and courts). Really sloppy.
posted by ryanrs at 10:16 AM on January 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

It's amazing how cowardly seditionists get away with calling themselves brave patriots, and nobody laughs.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 10:18 AM on January 3, 2016 [49 favorites]

I wondered during the Cliven Bundy standoff, and I wonder now, if the feds (& Obama) are severely handicapped by the certain overreaction by gun enthusiasts and the right wing press to any legal or tactical efforts to peacefully resolve this situation. If the mere suggestion of action is only going to fuel more outlandish protests and propaganda, it looks like a no-win situation for the federal government. At least until the gun enthusiasts start eating the local wildlife.
posted by sneebler at 10:18 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wow, the "federal building" headlines are terrible. This is some park headquarters building, that is, a building owned by the federal government, not an actual federal building (big office building housing federal agencies and courts). Really sloppy.

wut
posted by PMdixon at 10:19 AM on January 3, 2016 [28 favorites]

"Wow, the "federal building" headlines are terrible. This is some park headquarters building, that is, a building owned by the federal government, not an actual federal building (big office building housing federal agencies and courts). Really sloppy."

Yeah, the headline 'Oregon Under Attack" is pretty melodramatic too.
posted by merelyglib at 10:20 AM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

How cute, this guy's copy of the Constitution is a picture book.
posted by peeedro at 10:20 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's amazing how cowardly seditionists get away with calling themselves brave patriots, and nobody laughs.

And the deep irony of claiming their constitutional right to defend themselves and blah blah blah against a federal government that grants them those same rights they are openly defying.
posted by Fizz at 10:21 AM on January 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

We had an IRL regional campout not too far from this place in 2014. Had to actually drive through the wildlife refuge to get to the campout location.

I'm wondering whether they chose this location because they resent the protected status of the possible game birds who use this as part of their migratory path. They are demanding the wildlife refuge be disbanded, so I would be surprised if they aren't poaching for food when they can, if they do plan to be there "as long as it takes" or whatever.
posted by hippybear at 10:21 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Obama could designate the building to be a new mini-prison and order the BLM to build a fence around it.
posted by Brian B. at 10:22 AM on January 3, 2016 [70 favorites]

These guys aren't even Oregonians, and as the Vox piece states, the guys they claim to be supporting don't want them there and are fine going to prison.

But the lack of police response? Ugh. Police keep low profile in militia standoff is an Oregonian piece that goes into that. They say it's under FBI jurisdiction, and the FBI is keeping moot. They also mention that one of the guys posted what seemed like a farewell video just before going to Oregon for this, ugh.

Also, in some pointed yet certainly unintended symbolism (they're not Oregonian so it's doubtful they know the background of Malheur), Malheur is French for misfortune; calamity; tragedy.
posted by fraula at 10:24 AM on January 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

Peeedro - I'm pretty sure the "This Guy" in question there is Ritzheimer, (originally mentioned for holding those anti-Muslim rallies in the last year, then trying to fundraise claiming he was receiving threats, etc).
posted by Archelaus at 10:25 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

These guys are idiots.

That said, don't let your disdain for these heavily armed halfbrights cause you to dismiss occupation as a strategy altogether. I grew up in Seattle, where there is a genuinely wonderful Native American cultural center that got its start back in the 1970s when a group of radical Native activists staged a long-running (unarmed) occupation of U.S. military land within the Seattle city limits, land which was eventually transferred back to the tribes. The problem with these right-wing Oregon guys isn't that they've taken a building with the demand to hold it for years. The problem is that their politics are incoherent and vile, and they think that guns can protect them.

Seizing land and refusing to leave, though, is a valid tactic.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:26 AM on January 3, 2016 [65 favorites]

Or, terrorism.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:28 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trending twitter hashtags: #YallQaeda, #YokelHaram, #YeeHawd
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 10:28 AM on January 3, 2016 [100 favorites]

If these guys were black, there'd be airstrikes indeed
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:29 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

These stupid losers are fighting for their Landfare rights, the right to graze private cattle on public land, at the cost of the other species who need protection to exist, at a cost to Americans who want to enjoy visiting pristine habitat. It is also on the dime of hunters who buy duck stamps and licenses to responsibly harvest fish and game birds. You used to have to pick your way through cowpies to hike in the Escalante River drainage, until it was fenced off from cattle.

Folks move to marginal, cheap land because they can afford it. Then they expect to graze cattle for as far as the eye can see, on public lands, for free, without leasing the lands or managing the range for the common good of the American public.

Put their asses in jail, after doing some sort of Iwo Jima landing with American troops, itching for combat. Fly some fighters low over them, so low their teeth rattle, and make them sure who owns the land, and that the owners are sick of them. Jesus Christ, we are carrying on in the Middle East like we own the place, what about the stuff we do own?

Make it sound like Ramadi over there. Regardless of any other consideration. If we don't, then ignoring the proper management of public lands, will become the norm.

This is already the norm in The National Dope Growing Forests.
posted by Oyéah at 10:29 AM on January 3, 2016 [114 favorites]

While I know next to nothing about this case, in matters claimed to be "civil disobedience", I keep in mind the true grievances of the pirates in Somalia

As I have come to understand, conflicts there destroyed the government and left the coastline open to both illegal fishing and toxic waste dumping. While piracy in that region eventually tended toward robbery and localised terrorism, the inception was a desperate measure of defence. As the pirates captured foreign vessels, foreign navies began responding, which had the side-effect of diminishing illegal fishing and dumping.

I won't forget the projectcensored.org report:

Acts of piracy are actually acts of desperation, and, as in the case of Somalia, what is one man’s pirate is another man’s Coast Guard.

While I know little of the case in Oregon, it's worth remembering that civil disobedience does not always take obvious forms. That this group of people feels so aggrieved that they have chosen extreme action may represent either hubris – and the desire to live above / outside the law – or a legitimate grievance that has been at best ignored and at worst demonised.

In the case of the pirates:

“Do we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our nuclear waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We didn’t act on those crimes—but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit-corridor for 20 percent of the world’s oil supply, we begin to shriek about “evil.”

Not to say the militia in Oregon has a legitimate grievance – it would be good to know whether the objective opinion is that they do, or they do not. The point here is that civil disobedience does not always take the form that one might expect.
posted by nickrussell at 10:30 AM on January 3, 2016 [19 favorites]

Twitter has been all over this since late last night and I'm surprised dissapointed that it took major media outlets so long to cover this issue. That being said, the ones that are covering it, aren't doing such a stand-up job of covering it. I mean seriously?!
posted by Fizz at 10:30 AM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's amazing how cowardly seditionists get away with calling themselves brave patriots, and nobody laughs.

Well, putting public land on private hands is apparently a Koch goal, and therefore a republican goal, and they're the only people who count as patriots so USA! USA! USA!

Basically be all folksy about it and run up a flags and the American people will absolutely allow themselves to be screwed over by armed nutjobs backed by oligarchs.
posted by Artw at 10:31 AM on January 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Militia aside, if you think, as I do, that the minimum sentencing for "eco-terrorism" is far too harsh, it's pretty hard to see the extended sentences for the two ranchers as anything like justice.
posted by surlyben at 10:32 AM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Why is it that the public reaction to Waco and Ruby Ridge leads to prudence (trying not to inflame people to greater violence), while the public reaction to the Trayvon Martin killing and the Rodney King beating are used to justify increased police violence? Is it really just the difference between the police and the feds?
posted by idiopath at 10:33 AM on January 3, 2016 [34 favorites]

American police are in general cowardly bullies who aren't going to do shit about anyone who might shoot back or have political support.
posted by Artw at 10:34 AM on January 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

Why is it that the public reaction to Waco and Ruby Ridge leads to prudence (trying not to inflame people to greater violence), while the public reaction to the Trayvon Martin killing and the Rodney King beating are used to justify increased police violence? Is it really just the difference between the police and the feds?

...because they're black?
posted by leotrotsky at 10:35 AM on January 3, 2016 [69 favorites]

"American police are in general cowardly bullies who aren't going to do shit about anyone who might shoot back"

Which, perversely enough, is pretty much one of the gun nuts arguments.
posted by Frayed Knot at 10:37 AM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Bundy Brothers Occupy Federal Building, Here Are The GOP Candidates Who Supported Their Dad
posted by Artw at 10:37 AM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Bundy: “The Lord was not pleased” with the arson conviction.

Replace "Lord" with "Allah" and how do you think this would end?
posted by HighLife at 10:37 AM on January 3, 2016 [41 favorites]

How cute, this guy's copy of the Constitution is a picture book.

It's a pamphlet containing the constitution, with a picture on the front, published by a conservative group called National Center for Constitutional Studies. It does contain the text of the constitution, so I wouldn't call it a "picture book".
An amazon review for it says it's the text of the constitution and declaration of independence, framed with some quotes opposing separation of church and state.
posted by xris at 10:38 AM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

While I know next to nothing about this case,

Maybe you could look some stuff up then instead of writing a medium length comment with generalities about the need to look at underlying grievances.
posted by PMdixon at 10:39 AM on January 3, 2016 [40 favorites]

in matters claimed to be "civil disobedience", I keep in mind the true grievances of the pirates in Somalia

As I have come to understand, conflicts there destroyed the government and left the coastline open to both illegal fishing and toxic waste dumping.

Which is pretty much the exact opposite of any of the stated grievances of this group of armed men in Oregon. (Read the background links in the FPP.)
posted by hippybear at 10:40 AM on January 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

What the shit? This is like when you go "camping" by putting a sheet over the dining room table and sitting under there drawing pokemons and your mom brings you fluffernutters

I believe the Feds worked out that if they put up a cordon around a bunch of armed nutters, that course of action tends to run inexorably towards having to shoot them or something. By not having a cordon, the Feds have options. Including putting up a cordon if they want to later.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:41 AM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Law Enforcement is letting them receive deliveries.

Surely that is standard for any occupation.
posted by colie at 10:48 AM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Law Enforcement is letting them receive deliveries.

Let them receive all the Hungry Man dinners they want. Cut off their electricity and running water and let shit (literally) pile up.

Sanitation is what ends a siege.
posted by HighLife at 10:52 AM on January 3, 2016 [50 favorites]

>That being said, the ones that are covering it, aren't doing such a stand-up job of covering it.

Which is why I usually have to go to The Guardian to get decent coverage of US news stories these days :(

Their on-site reporter states that although US news sources were regularly reporting 150 protesters terrorists occupying the building, the Guardian reporter only saw about a dozen cars in the parking lot. And that the occupying protesters terrorists were keeping other Americans from entering the land that they had claimed for all Americans themselves

_{(Also Twitter is not news coverage, it is an advertising medium. You can't truly cover news in 140 character chunks spaced out throughout the day.)}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:53 AM on January 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

Surely that is standard for any occupation.

Maybe when you're white; iirc they tried starving out AIM and cut off all utilities to Wounded Knee back in 73.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:54 AM on January 3, 2016 [29 favorites]

I wonder if anyone's troubled to run the plates on those dozen or so cars?
posted by Archelaus at 10:54 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, either they'll slink away into the night without their power, internet, and running toilets or we'll see someone smeared in body paint and feces waving a conch.

"Civil disobedience" my fucking foot. What happens when they run an armed take over of something less remote and shack-like?
posted by Slackermagee at 10:55 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

These are the same kind of people who make fun of left-wing activists when they "occupy" parks or college administration buildings. So I guess they don't have a principled objection to unlawful squatting, they just don't want the "wrong" people to do it?

This is not civil disobedience, it's an attempt to seize a building (and ultimately a valuable plot of grazing land) from the federal government. Doesn't matter whether their motivating politics are left- or right-wing. Have them arrested. (That said, try to avoid another violent siege like Waco or Ruby Ridge. They may be criminals, but they still have human rights.)
posted by Rangi at 10:59 AM on January 3, 2016 [29 favorites]

Maybe when you're white; iirc they tried starving out AIM and cut off all utilities to Wounded Knee back in 73.

I don't doubt that the police/state treat groups very differently according to their race and social position, but I'm just concerned that the very notion of peaceful 'occupation' might get trashed a bit in this thread that's all. Certainly student occupations are a really important activist tool and the authorities don't attempt to starve them etc.
posted by colie at 10:59 AM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Once you're armed, the 'peaceful' part of the occupation is kinda out the window.
posted by PMdixon at 11:04 AM on January 3, 2016 [120 favorites]

The Armed Domestic Terrorists in Oregon Should Be Treated Just as ISIS Terrorists Would Be
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:04 AM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Maybe you could look some stuff up then instead of writing a medium length comment with generalities about the need to look at underlying grievances.

Referenced readings were inconclusive in terms of whether or not their grievances are valid, beyond the unsophisticated methods mentioned. There appears to be valid grievance with federal land use policy, and its influencers. They would certainly not be alone in that. However, the reporting then goes on to discuss witnesses that may or may not be of relevance, and commentary on the standoff rather than the grievance. My point is that it is unclear to me if the grievance is valid, and until that is clear, it seems mis-guided to focus too heavily on the methods.

Now, the grievance may well not be valid, however, I haven't seen linked here or in a quick browse of the news enough information to conclusively say that their grievance is invalid. They are certainly extremists and promote themselves poorly, however, if there is corruption of land use supervisors and/or judicial problems, that is certainly a crucial piece of the story.
posted by nickrussell at 11:04 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think the presence of guns is a big distinction between peaceful, student protests and whatever this is.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:05 AM on January 3, 2016 [24 favorites]

"Civil disobedience" my fucking foot. What happens when they run an armed take over of something less remote and shack-like?

Just be patient. The dystopic aftermath of a violent revolution that we've been reading/watching in our fiction for the past 100 years will soon be a reality.
posted by Fizz at 11:05 AM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does no one in the "we need guns in case we need to overthrow a corrupt government" camp follow the news even casually?

You don't overthrow an oppressive government with guns. No one does that anymore. You use public protest and personal reporting.

In fact, if you made a pie chart of how critical various tools are to revolution in the 21st century, "guns" would be a tiny sliver hard to make out between the giant wedges for "Twitter" and "Facebook."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:06 AM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Wow, the "federal building" headlines are terrible. This is some park headquarters building, that is, a building owned by the federal government, not an actual federal building (big office building housing federal agencies and courts). Really sloppy."

Yeah, the headline 'Oregon Under Attack" is pretty melodramatic too.

Given that it IS a federal bulding, shouldn't this be AMERICA UNDER ATTACK?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:07 AM on January 3, 2016 [25 favorites]

Local Oregon Public Broadcasting reporter says 10-12 people in the building.
posted by jgaiser at 11:10 AM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

What is really bothering me is that liberals and radicals alike are already adopting the reasoning of the far-right here - that you are either with these terrorists, or with the police. This is a false dilemma. You can actually, really oppose both the armed far-right and the armed wing of the state here.

That said, I do think what these guys want is some kind of firefight/martyrdom. See Waco, or even the attempted arrest of Silent Brotherhood founder Bob Mathews. The FBI might be skittish about letting something like that happen, for good reason. On the other hand, it's also entirely possible the whole Bundy Ranch incident emboldened these clowns. I think the best thing that can happen here is citizens doing what the police won't. And by that I mean blockading the area from receiving deliveries entirely, cutting the power (if it hasn't been shut off already), naming and shaming these fools (many of their pals are already all over social media bragging about this).

We must not let these fascists force us to buy into the rhetoric that this is about Free Citizens vs. The Armed State. They would make real and actual fascism happen if they had their way. They need to be shown that they are not just up against the feds here, but a nation of people who refused to be cowed by their cheap intimidation tactics.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:11 AM on January 3, 2016 [66 favorites]

I think the presence of guns is a big distinction between peaceful, student protests and whatever this is.


Totally, and so it's not really accurate to call this an 'occupation'.
posted by colie at 11:11 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Honestly ignoring these wackos is the right course of action. An armed confrontation is what they want. Let them have the park, they'll get bored in a week or two when the supposedly terrible Federal Government doesn't send in troops. Then they'll just go home. Arrest them in a few months for tax evasion when they're out of the limelight.
posted by miyabo at 11:12 AM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

I hope that all of these guys go to jail for a long, long time. I don't think that will happen, but I hope it does.

If it goes down like that other Bundy fiasco in Nevada, those guys now own the building and the land tax-free in perpetuity.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:13 AM on January 3, 2016 [26 favorites]

Arrest them in a few months for tax evasion when they're out of the limelight.

Tax evasion? Is there any reason to beleive they are guilty of that, or is that just a charge we can toss at anyone for any reason?

Largely, I agree with you though; but I'd arrest them as they drove out of there, for criminal trespass, firearms violations, threatening federal employees, and/or other things they have actually done.
posted by el io at 11:16 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

. I think the best thing that can happen here is citizens doing what the police won't. And by that I mean blockading the area from receiving deliveries entirely, cutting the power (if it hasn't been shut off already), naming and shaming these fools (many of their pals are already all over social media bragging about this).

I, too, want this to end without militaristic violence from *any* side, but I think much of the revenge fantasizing going on here is a response to the fact that the "armed wing of the state" certainly seems to pick its victims along racial and ethnic lines.

With that in mind, how are citizens to blockade the building or cut off the power without themselves becoming victims of the far right militiamen or the armed wing of the State?
posted by kewb at 11:18 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Now, the grievance may well not be valid, however, I haven't seen linked here or in a quick browse of the news enough information to conclusively say that their grievance is invalid.

Their grievance is that two people were convicted of arson for intentionally setting fires on federal land under a burn ban without notification while firefighters were camped nearby. They are lucky that nobody was killed.
posted by JackFlash at 11:19 AM on January 3, 2016 [74 favorites]

drezdn: I thought so too, but apparently Law Enforcement is letting them receive deliveries. (WTF)

Maybe the plan is to wait a week or two so they get comfortable, and then drug the hell out of one of the food deliveries. Go in and pick everyone up while they're passed out.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:25 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

With that in mind, how are citizens to blockade the building or cut off the power without themselves becoming victims of the far right militiamen or the armed wing of the State?

Avoiding getting picked off by rednecks or arrested as they attempt to cut power or block deliveries depends entirely on the layout of the place and surrounding areas, so I have no idea where that's concerned. I'm just tossing ideas out here. Escalation is clearly not the answer, though, and I think non-escalating means of containing and defeating these guys are crucial. And in the meantime, the Pro-Armed Redneck Or Pro-Cop meme needs to be ignored, because it only plays into their agenda.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:26 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

> I think the best thing that can happen here is citizens doing what the police won't.
> And by that I mean blockading the area from receiving deliveries entirely,

With that in mind, how are citizens to blockade the building or cut off the power without themselves becoming victims of the far right militiamen or the armed wing of the State?

Agreed. I don't think forming a militia is always the best response to nutters forming a militia.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:27 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Totally, and so it's not really accurate to call this an 'occupation'.

Well, it's an armed occupation. With an unarmed occupation the only penalty for the government to force you out is PR. With armed, it's the threat of the death of federal agents. So, when done for political aims, armed occupation is an act of terrorism and should be treated as such. I respect the desire not to cause unnecessary deaths, but terrorists should not be allowed to do this. This is the sort of thing SWAT is actually for, not tossing a weed dealer's house.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:30 AM on January 3, 2016 [85 favorites]

Certainly student occupations are a really important activist tool and the authorities don't attempt to starve them etc.

Perhaps sometimes...

I remember a governmentboffice occupation in BC a decade ago where the students tried to order pizza and this was not allowed.

I don't think letting a bunch of armed people who say they are willing to kill or be killed should be receiving deliveries. The delivery person's safety is one thing. What can be smuggled in is another.

Armed stand off is not peaceful civil disobedience.
posted by chapps at 11:31 AM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

I don't think forming a militia is always the best response to nutters forming a militia.

Fortunately, I'm not arguing in favor of forming a counter-militia.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:33 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

There are so many pieces to thus to unpack... Certainly the racial bias in policing, the expansion of terrorism laws, the idea of outsider protestors trying to speak for locals, people harnessing any protests as an excuse for acting out violence and perhaps machismo.
posted by chapps at 11:34 AM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane: Avoiding getting picked off by rednecks or arrested as they attempt to cut power or block deliveries depends entirely on the layout of the place and surrounding areas, so I have no idea where that's concerned. I'm just tossing ideas out here. Escalation is clearly not the answer, though, and I think non-escalating means of containing and defeating these guys are crucial. And in the meantime, the Pro-Armed Redneck Or Pro-Cop meme needs to be ignored, because it only plays into their agenda.

1. Unless the place is generator-powered, there's another end to that power cable. Pull that one.

2. Tell all local residents and food services "Deliver to those guys and it's aiding and abetting". Arrest anyone who goes anyway once they get back.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:34 AM on January 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think the best thing that can happen here is citizens doing what the police won't. And by that I mean blockading the area from receiving deliveries entirely,

I don't understand why you would ever think trucking in some anarchists for a little direct action against armed fascists would be a good idea here: this isn't Eugene. The local "citizens" are certainly not going to lock arms around this "protest". Which side do you think they would pick in a fight between gun loving ranchers and black block kids?
posted by ennui.bz at 11:40 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, the correct response to this is the state enforcing its monopoly on violence, not other people trying to enter the market.
posted by PMdixon at 11:41 AM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Cover the road in caltrops.
posted by miyabo at 11:42 AM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

I would love to know what the drone commanders are telling Law Enforcement about the legalities of sending American Armed Forces drones in to execute Americans on American soil right now. Surely it is perfectly legal by this point but I bet they really really really do not want to do it.
posted by bukvich at 11:43 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wouldn't the currently popular patriotic response be to just build a really big wall?
posted by poffin boffin at 11:45 AM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

ooh yes i forgot about the drones
posted by poffin boffin at 11:45 AM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

How about freezing their bank accounts? The government seems to do it on the flimsiest pretext all the time. Those ranchers will probably think twice when their wife and kids at home can't buy food anymore.
posted by miyabo at 11:48 AM on January 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

I guess this explains why westerns are making a comeback. This is, after all, a real-life range war.
posted by maxsparber at 11:49 AM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

While I acknowledge the difference in treatment between whites and POC, I'd hesitate to call this terrorism. Bank robbers instill terror, but they aren't really terrorists. These guys are a bunch of privileged assholes who think they're special snowflakes and the laws don't apply to them. I've met a few "sovereign citizen" types, it's basically a license to do whatever the hell they want.

That said, I don't want this to end in a gun battle, partially because some of them would love to be martyrs to the cause. However, I don't understand why the Feds haven't cut the power and blocked the roads in. Starve me out seems to be the simplest solution. Anybody who steps out carrying a gun gets tear gassed.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:49 AM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

This "takeover" is ridiculously cowardly and low-stakes: they "occupied" an empty building, and I doubt anyone would have even noticed by now in the absence of their own relentless self-promotion. So there's no reason not to have a sense of humor. These are disaffected ranchers, so I say fight fire with fire: set up a cordon and air-drop thousand pound sacks of literal bullshit, the substance with which they would gladly pollute our federal lands, and see how long it takes for them to give up.
posted by Captain l'escalier at 11:50 AM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

What if they cut off the cell phone signals? No way to post on social media, no publicity. It's not like this place has tons of TV cameras.
posted by miyabo at 11:51 AM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yeah, the correct response to this is the state enforcing its monopoly on violence, not other people trying to enter the market.

but the whole point is that this violent right wing political action shows just how useless the anarcho-libertarian idea of the "state" and a "monopoly on violence" is. Genghis Khan had a monopoly on violence; the bourgeois state is not the Golden Horde. it will always defer to groups associated business interests in society, because power in a bourgeois society ultimately derives from those interests.
posted by ennui.bz at 11:57 AM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Based on the campout we had in 2014, and the number of birders we encountered while there (repeatedly had people be astonished we weren't there with binoculars to look at birds), I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of people with binoculars pretty outraged by this after they've driven to the most remote corner of Oregon.
posted by hippybear at 11:58 AM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

What if they cut off the cell phone signals?

This would be my first move. I don't know much about the technology, though. Is it possible to jam cell communications? Once they're jammed, let them sit and stew, unable to get their message out. Then, cut power. Sit and stew some more.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:59 AM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Responses I'm enthusiastically for: not allowing people to bring food to them (aiding and abetting), cutting off their electricity (which they are arguably stealing), waiting for them to come out and then arresting them.

Responses that are repugnant and disturbing to me: violently attacking/killing them. Look, they don't have any hostages, do they? Are any lives in imminent danger?

Personally, I'm against the death penalty: that is, state sanctioned murder. The death penalty comes with a ton of judicial review and due process, and I'm still against it. I hope that everyone here in favor of a violent state response to this action are also ardent defenders of the death penalty, because what they are advocating in this thread is the death penalty without any due process.

Honestly, I'm pretty disgusted by this thread, and disappointed at many of the commenters in it.

Don't get me wrong, I abhor the crazy political views of these folks, abhor their tactics even more, and think they should all be put in federal prison, but summary execution isn't something that I think the state should be engaged with. The only time deadly force is appropriate is when lives are in imminent danger (hostage situations, for example).

Seeing the calls for violent response to a situation that doesn't warrant it reminds me of people that wanted to use a violent response to the Occupy folks or Black Lives Matter movement.

Yes, these people have guns; yes, they should be arrested, but no lives are in imminent danger at the moment, and it's law enforcement's job to peacefully deescelate this situation, and then arrest the people involved (as they should have done after the Bundy ranch standoff).
posted by el io at 11:59 AM on January 3, 2016 [99 favorites]

Apparently they're also trying to bring in kids now.
posted by drezdn at 12:00 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

the anarcho-libertarian idea of the "state" and a "monopoly on violence" is.

Uh. I think there's a lot more people calling that the basic defining feature of a state than anarcho-libertarians. Yes, there's a lot of differing possible sources of legitimacy, which is the thing that turns 'violence' into 'force', but by and large 'an entity that has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence within a geographical territory' is taken as the starting definition of what a state is.
posted by PMdixon at 12:00 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Apparently they're also trying to bring in kids now.

If the feds allow that to happen we're fucked and I'm going to start figuring out which country is most likely to let me seek asylum under the grounds that I may face persecution as a gay man.
posted by PMdixon at 12:01 PM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yeah, I'm sorry, the precedent for this is John Brown at Harper's Ferry. The politics are immaterial. This is an armed insurrection, and I expect my federal government to pursue this with vigor and efficiency.

That said, it seems like the most efficient course is for the feds to cut the power, cut the water, cut the cell coverage, prevent any deliveries, and wait for twelve irrational, hungry white guys to stagger out of the park, hands up. Then arrest them all.

The very last thing I would ever allow these occupiers/terrorists to do is bring in kids. Bringing kids into a standoff with guns, just to be props for the justice of your cause, is just plain evil.
posted by newdaddy at 12:03 PM on January 3, 2016 [27 favorites]

Kids as human shields. This same group was using women and children as human shields down in Nevada. It's a tactic they "learned" from the Waco standoff and tragedy.

Stay classy, militia-people.
posted by hippybear at 12:05 PM on January 3, 2016 [33 favorites]

Given that it IS a federal bulding, shouldn't this be AMERICA UNDER ATTACK?
posted by mandolin conspiracy

If these jokers were Muslim, you can damn well bet that would be the headline.
posted by spitbull at 12:07 PM on January 3, 2016 [37 favorites]

Responses that are repugnant and disturbing to me: violently attacking/killing them. Look, they don't have any hostages, do they?

Actually.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:10 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm not in favor of civil forfeiture, but given that it is used and (however dubiously) legal, why can't the feds just establish a line around the place, then anyone that crosses that line has their belongings subject to civil forfeiture. That would take care of food delivery and arms delivery quickly enough.

My sick sense of humor suggests that that should extend to their clothes as well and that it be done in full view of the press.
posted by Death and Gravity at 12:15 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

(TD Strange's link is to a quasi-interview with a woman affiliated with YallQaeda, and among other things she mentions bringing children onto the compound today.)
posted by PMdixon at 12:19 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Kind of curious how many undercover cops are there.
posted by drezdn at 12:20 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

If there aren't any there now, there soon will be.
posted by hippybear at 12:22 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kind of curious how many undercover cops are there.
posted by drezdn at 12:20 PM

What am I missing?
posted by yesster at 12:22 PM on January 3, 2016

And can we please spell Y'allQaeda correctly? It's not Ya'llQaeda... the apostrophe goes in the correct place.
posted by hippybear at 12:23 PM on January 3, 2016 [32 favorites]

What am I missing?

The call for others to join them, whether they are armed or not. Open opportunity for infiltration.
posted by hippybear at 12:24 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

My wife tells me someone's referring to these guys as "vanilla ISIS."
posted by doctornemo at 12:24 PM on January 3, 2016 [99 favorites]

I resent "Y'all Qaeda." They are not Southerners.

are they? please tell me they're not from down here
posted by Countess Elena at 12:26 PM on January 3, 2016 [21 favorites]

There's a lot of American dialects that include y'all, not just deep southern ones. They're most recently from Nevada, which contains multitudes.
posted by PMdixon at 12:27 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

if you take the big picture view, a lot of this comes down to just how much a political disaster the era of radical eco-activism in the Pacific north west was, the main result being that it provided cover for big business to liquidate employment in the timber industry and associated businesses. the economy of the Pacific northwest would resemble something like Afghanistan without the constant investment and intervention of the federal government. cattle ranching in particular was always a federal welfare program and an inefficient one at that. but the drying out of the west combined with the collapse of timber employment has made the situation so much more stark and driven welfare queens like the Bundy's to outright crime. you could joke that the entire economy would collapse without the federal money that comes with fighting first fires but it might be true. but the point is that the Bundy's (and the tribes) wouldn't exist without the federal government so all of this is a variation on a longstanding game that no side really wants to "win". but as global warming radicalizes the ecology of the northwest this game will become increasingly high stakes...
posted by ennui.bz at 12:28 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

the apostrophe goes in the correct place.

Not this again. How dare you bring up something as serious as that in this lighthearted discussion about some nutty sovereign citizens and their pretend invasion of marijuana land?

How? Dare? You?
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:28 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

WhineSIS
posted by drezdn at 12:29 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

In order to contextualize the insurrection in Oregon for those used to reading about the middle east, I've compiled a handy list:

"armed militia" = "militant insurgents"
"local residents" = "villagers"
"remote federal building" = "government outpost"
"peaceful march" = "public demonstrations"
"militia members claim" = "intelligence reports suggest"
"occupation" = "capture"
"protestors" = "anti-government sympathizers"
"calls for support" = "extremist propaganda"
posted by TheNewWazoo at 12:29 PM on January 3, 2016 [53 favorites]

They're most recently from Nevada, which contains multitudes.

Many of them seem to be from Montana and North Dakota based on the early reports I was reading. With the oil fields slowing down, there are men with lots of time on their hands in those areas.

I am a bit resentful that they are giving men with beautiful beards a bad reputation, but I can't do anything about that.
posted by hippybear at 12:30 PM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

I resent "Y'all Qaeda." They are not Southerners.

there was significant emigration from Texas to the Pacific Northwest in the early middle of the 20th century. not sure if this explains anything...
posted by ennui.bz at 12:30 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah sorry, focusing too much on idiot Bundys and not the rest.
posted by PMdixon at 12:30 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

What to do if they run out of toilet paper?
posted by Postroad at 12:31 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Use the bullets of the weapons they claim to have brought to a non-armed occupation?
posted by hippybear at 12:33 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Use the Constitution?
posted by drezdn at 12:33 PM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

What to do if they run out of toilet paper?

Duh, use the peanut butter jar.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:33 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Shit, my brother is a scientist at the USDA research station in Burns. They've been out of town for the holidays, but SHIT.
posted by gamera at 12:34 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Southern Poverty Law Center's come up with this handy and timely resource - Timeline: Land Use and the "Patriots"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:38 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

I was wondering about undercover cops because with "Eco-terrorists" and BLM there have definitely been undercover cops that had infiltrated the organizations. Curious if any had done it with this right wing militia.
posted by drezdn at 12:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Stop calling them a militia. They are not a militia.
posted by triggerfinger at 12:43 PM on January 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

Kind of curious how many undercover cops are there.
posted by drezdn at 12:20 PM

What am I missing?

The US Govts history of using agent provocateurs. Generally this is with leftist movements, but also the far right (Hal Turner for example).
posted by el io at 12:44 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

My favorite response to this was posted on dailykos:

You know you're a badass Tea Party patriot motherfucker when your militia takes over an unprotected bird sanctuary

posted by Bringer Tom at 12:47 PM on January 3, 2016 [121 favorites]

About the above questions regarding Tax Evasion, it's as much a part of this right wing movement as antisemitism, bizarro world readings of archaic legal documents, and white entitlement.
posted by idiopath at 12:48 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I guess I do wonder if the Hammonds were black or gay or Jewish or Muslim, would these same men be marching with their weapons toward one of the least populated sections of Oregon on their behalf?
posted by hippybear at 12:51 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

The county has announced that schools will be closed the entire week (and possibly longer) which I think is a bad move since it sets the clock ticking for an escalation, and potentially adds a bunch of bored and/or dumb teenagers to the mix.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:52 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm all for cutting off their water supply and freezing their bank accounts. The feds have plenty of ways to resolve this without a) resorting to violence b) creating a PR shitstorm for themselves.
posted by iffthen at 12:54 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Yeehawdists," that from California.

I didn't suggest violence, I suggested close overflys. But my next suggestion is strafing the vehicles, and making them pay for towing. I suggest making so much noise and such a personnel over-response, the Yeehawdists won't have enough toilet paper to come out clean, with their hands up.

The problem is these people are the pawns of exploiters, who by use of bored folks like these, plan to log, mine, and graze every piece of public land in this nation. They plan for no public land to exist.

I am amazed at disappointment stated, over an armed response suggested, to armed takeover of public resources, inside the US.

OK, so starve 'em out. They will hunt the protected wildlife, just like the guys did who are voluntarily going back to jail, for setting fires, to cover deer slaughter.
posted by Oyéah at 12:56 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oh also, the job of good government is to handle stupidity like this with intelligence and subtlety. Hoping nobody drops the ball here.
posted by iffthen at 12:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I’ll repeat my standard response to news about “militia” groups. These gun nut groups that summarize the entire Constitution to only a fragment of a single sentence in the second amendment need to have the rest of the Constitution read to them.
Article 1, section 8 of the Constitution clearly states the purpose, and the organizing authority for: training, arming, disciplining, and selection of officers of the Militia. The stated purpose of the Militia is "to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions".
Despite their misuse of the name, a ragtag group of self-serving crackpots defying legal authorities is not a militia.
posted by X4ster at 12:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [38 favorites]

Also² (and I'm done after this), double-sentencing these guys is not great as a matter of policy.
posted by iffthen at 1:07 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't civil disobedience is something that's usually practiced without packing guns? I'm pretty sure Gandhi and MLK wouldn't have done it that way. So let's not give this armed tantrum the dignity of being called "civil disobedience ".
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:07 PM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

The double-sentencing was problematic, especially since (I believe) they already served their first sentence. Double Jeopardy is a thing we don't do here in the US except on a game show. Seems the Feds should have let it drop after they got out from their first, fully-served sentence.

But the Hammonds are going to surrender themselves peacefully for their second sentence tomorrow, and they aren't even participating in this whole matter. These are people who have come in from around the country to try to protest against a thing that the people involved aren't even protesting or resisting.
posted by hippybear at 1:12 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

The calls to kill protesters in Ferguson were gross, and the (presumably meant to be ironic or funny) calls to kill people here are gross. The feds acting with patience and looking for deescalation is a good thing in the midst of any armed standoff and should be the norm we expect in all situations. (That said, it is shameful that it has been a year since that Bundy protest and it appears that they have not bothered to go after them for the unpaid fees, illegal actions during the protests, or the range of tax offenses that some protesters bragged about.)

I've been through Burns a few times this year. If you aren't from this region, it's hard to exaggerate how remote it is; it is not at all the place where you would expect to find a congregation of sovereign citizens, or a congregation of pretty much anyone other than birders or hunters. It says a lot that the ranchers at the center of this -- the ones actually in jail -- have disavowed the protesters and don't want any part of their craziness.

I didn't suggest violence, I suggested close overflys.

I can only imagine the environmental impact process for permitting low overflights in a wildlife refuge. Good luck getting Fish and Wildlife to sign off on that one.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:17 PM on January 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

"these guys"

The arsonists were convicted of a crime that had a mandatory minimum, their shorter sentence was an error. It is not double jeapordy - there was no second trial. The original sentence was in error. If you are opposed to mandatory minimums (as I am), there is reason to complain, but nothing illegal happened here.

Also the usage of the term "these guys" here is extremely misleading. The occupiers are not from Oregon. The arsonists are willing to serve their longer sentence and have explicitly distanced themselves from the occupying private army.
posted by idiopath at 1:18 PM on January 3, 2016 [19 favorites]

One of the militia men occupying the fed wildlife refuge in OR left a goodbye video to his family.

Seriously? Their desperation to become "martyrs" is showing.
posted by jessian at 1:19 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

The double-sentencing was problematic, especially since (I believe) they already served their first sentence. Double Jeopardy is a thing we don't do here in the US except on a game show. Seems the Feds should have let it drop after they got out from their first, fully-served sentence.

They weren't tried twice- they were found guilty exactly once. The judge "disagreed" with the mandatory minimum (5 years) and instead sentenced one to 3 months and one to a year.

While they were serving their sentence, the feds appealed and argued that the mandatory minimum should have been applied, the appeals court agreed, and sent them back to prison to serve the remainder of the 5 years that they should have been sentenced to in the first place.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:23 PM on January 3, 2016 [46 favorites]

The Jon Ritzheimer goodbye / "I just want to stand for something" video (youtube 13min41sec).
posted by phoque at 1:25 PM on January 3, 2016

I don't understand the drive to call them terrorists. Who are they terrorizing? They took over some unoccupied building in the middle of nowhere. I'm not defending them; I don't know enough about the Hammond case to have an opinion on whether there is some underlying injustice or not.

Certainly racism exists, certainly there are differences in police tactics, but the situation is not the same as people blocking roadways and shutting down malls. The major danger here is to law enforcement. My opinion would change dramatically if they were holding hostages, or were in a major city, but it sounds like they are in BFE and currently not affecting anyone else. Let them run out of food and get cold and this will burn out on its own.
posted by desjardins at 1:26 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

if they were holding hostages

At least one source linked above has them saying they intend to bring kids on site. They want to force the feds to replay Waco.
posted by PMdixon at 1:29 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Liquidwolf

Off the top of my head there was: Wounded Knee '73, the Black Panthers, Malcom X, the Deacons of Justice and Defence, Athens Tn, the coal wars and "labor riots". Maybe not a good tactic, but it is a historic one.
posted by ridgerunner at 1:29 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who are they terrorizing? They took over some unoccupied building in the middle of nowhere.

A building that would be open for business Monday morning if they weren't there -- this Wildlife Refuge is open year round and the staff would be coming in for their M-Th wintertime work shift if they weren't there.

As for who are they terrorizing? Pretty much everyone who agrees that poaching on Federal land, setting unauthorized burn-out fires on Federal land, unauthorized/uncompensated grazing on Federal land is illegal. They're stating that, unless they get their way, they are willing to take up arms and move into anywhere they feel their unblocked access to use Federal land however they wish is being squashed and hole up there until their demands are met.

Right now this is in a remote place. But what they've done is they've closed off this entire remote bit of Oregon (which is very popular for travelers in search of rare birds and other wildlife) from the only source of outside tourist money it gets. It will hurt "only" these small communities for now. But if they win this, they will find new locales in which to practice their imported brand of armed protest agains supposed injustice, and they aren't likely to stop expanding their sphere of influence until they lose.
posted by hippybear at 1:33 PM on January 3, 2016 [101 favorites]

It was weird, growing up in Oregon, with regards to the anti-federalism strains one would run into. It wasn't presented like that, but before I knew what the BLM was I had already sort of ingested this anti-BLM attitude. To this day, I don't know what problem people had with the Bureau of Land Management, aside from federalism!. Then there was the thing where people on the Southern Oregon border joked about hanging signs on the Welcome to Oregon sign on I-5 saying 'Now Go Home" or signs on I-5 saying "keep the U.S. out of the U.N."

And that was on I-5, Western Oregon. Eastern Oregon is a whole other kettle of fish. Growing up in Ashland, which is Western Oregon but isolated enough that it has the tang of the East, we regarded our surrounding Oregonians with a skeptical eye. I feel bad that I thought of everybody outside of Ashland, Eugene, and Portland as hicks with guns and a lack of access to dental care, but take out the pejorative part of it and there's some truth to it.

Portland gets a lot of liberal joy, and good for old Portland, but the state has been home to some pretty pernicious bullshit. I have a weird ancestral history tangled up with Governor Pennoyer, and that man got into office on scalding-hot anti-Chinese racism. My great-grandmother was full-blooded some Native American tribe from Oregon, but which tribe is unknown because that fact didn't align with my family's WASPy narrative.

In short, I'm totally unfucking surprised this is happening in my homeland.
posted by angrycat at 1:34 PM on January 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

"Civil disobedience" my fucking foot. What happens when they run an armed take over of something less remote and shack-like?

Oooh, let's just jump to the good part. Do Y-12 or Pantex next.
posted by ctmf at 1:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

> I don't understand the drive to call them terrorists.

FBI definition:

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

• Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
• Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
• Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

posted by rtha at 1:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [64 favorites]

People in the local communities find them scary and annoying and don't want them there. In general, walking around with Big Guns making noises about your willingness to shoot anyone who gets in your way is pretty damn terroristic.

No visits, no food deliveries, cut off water and electricity (I read they brought a generator, but water? You'd need a lot for 12 people for a long time). Don't let them hunt, and keep your people up close enough to scare off the wildlife anyway. (seems like it would be dumb on their part to hunt; they'd be isolated and easy to pick off. So hey, maybe do let them hunt. )

Let them know that the charges get more serious every day they are in there; I assume employees who can't work there because of this nonsense would have the right to pursue civil suits? Maybe mention that too.

I would never say shoot them/kill them. I don't even think that's what they want. I think they are cosplaying as badasses but have no real backbone. But they need to be stopped because laws have meaning and the national parks are not their White Boys Only clubhouse.
posted by emjaybee at 1:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [19 favorites]

angrycat: Do realize, the Hammonds aren't participating in this, and most of those who are occupying the building aren't from Oregon.
posted by hippybear at 1:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

But what they've done is they've closed off this entire remote bit of Oregon (which is very popular for travelers in search of rare birds and other wildlife) from the only source of outside tourist money it gets.

I'd imagine that the economic impact of this locally is actually a positive. You now have journalists from all over the country/world converging on this remote town; eating at restaurants, sleeping at hotels. Not to say this is a good thing in any way, and it must suck for the locals to have to deal with the journos (undoubtedly asking them a bunch of stupid questions about how they feel about this, etc).
posted by el io at 1:43 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Off the top of my head there was:

Also MOVE in Philly '85 which as we all know did not end well.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:44 PM on January 3, 2016 [18 favorites]

Air strikes.

love too endorse state killings when it suits me
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:45 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Here's a bit of propaganda put out by a Bundy supporter. If you take in to consideration its target audience, it rather well done.
posted by ridgerunner at 1:47 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

This report from the SPLC on the 2014 standoff gives some illumination on the racist, conspiratorial ideology that is underpinning many of these "patriot" groups.
posted by graymouser at 1:47 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Portland Audubon Society weighs in on the out of state private army occupying our nature reserve.
posted by idiopath at 1:48 PM on January 3, 2016 [32 favorites]

hippybear, yeah, I know the dudes aren't from Oregon, but aside from the tourists and random fed researcher and legal aid lawyer, the assholes aren't exactly in unfriendly country
posted by angrycat at 1:48 PM on January 3, 2016

Being resentenced after an appeal court determines your original sentence was unlawfully short is not "double sentencing" and it is certainly not "double jeopardy".
posted by robcorr at 1:49 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

This thread is gross and appalling and I'm very disturbed to see many people here sounding like right wing clones when it's against people they don't like.

How is it a-ok to use the same illegal and disgusting tactics against ANY protestors that we use against people in the middle east, or black people, or muslims? Suggesting that drone strikes or extrajudicial murder are an appropriate response to what is a (so far) peaceful protest is really horrible and unjust.

Is the only thing that separates the crazy right-wingnuts from us who we think it's okay to murder or torture? I genuinely hope not.
posted by zug at 1:49 PM on January 3, 2016 [30 favorites]

aside from the tourists and random fed researcher and legal aid lawyer, the assholes aren't exactly in unfriendly country

Except for that I haven't read a single report that says the locals want this to be going on.
posted by hippybear at 1:52 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Operation Nifty Package

Imagine the playlist possibilities.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:54 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

You don't want to cut cell service, because then it looks like you're trying to hide what's going on. Cut power, prevent deliveries, sure, but you want all the media possible showing what idiots they are. For every crackpot they reach and encourage, they reach a lot of other people who want to see them get what's coming to them. Plus, they're generating their own evidence against themselves. Even the people who eventually have to go in and pull them out by the ear should have body cams on so we know nothing inappropriate happened.
posted by ctmf at 1:56 PM on January 3, 2016

I read they brought a generator, but water? You'd need a lot for 12 people for a long time

Wouldn't such a remote building be on well water rather than a municipal system?
posted by desjardins at 1:57 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

They don't seem to be holed up in traditional standoff fashion. They are still free to wander back into town and back to the refuge. They basically drove up, parked an RV and trailer there, huddled around a campfire and declared a stand was being taken.
posted by phoque at 1:58 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I generally agree that violence should be avoided if possible, but I don't think that the government can stand down here. These things will only get worse if these people are successful. A stand-down is their goal. Cordon off the perimeter and wait them out.
posted by graymouser at 1:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

When my cousin and I were little ones, we heard about the concept of going on strike, so we made up little signs and told the adults we were indeed "on strike."

The adults said "from what?"

I don't know why I was reminded of this story just now.
posted by NedKoppel at 2:00 PM on January 3, 2016 [38 favorites]

Wouldn't such a remote building be on well water rather than a municipal system?

Could be well, could be giant tank behind the building refilled by truck periodically. Based on what I know of similarish Forest Service/BLM sites in NM and complete ignorance of geology in the relevant area and lacking ability to extrapolate from said knowledge if I found it, I'd give 50/50.
posted by PMdixon at 2:04 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

What did Minneapolis do with the black lives matter protesters that seized a street and turned it into their base? I think the city let em have it for a week or two and then took it back.

Seems like a reasonable way to do it.
posted by jpe at 2:08 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is there some reason that armed occupation of federal land fails to count as (however ineptly) waging war against the United States, and hence, treason?

I mean, how much does this differ from the Whiskey Rebellion? The men involved in that were convicted of treason, though later pardoned by Washington. (Maybe these guys could be tried for treason and then pardoned by Obama.)
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 2:12 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

The real fun will happen later tonight, when all the Republican candidates fall over themselves trying to draw in votes by "condemning" them as faintly as possible.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:12 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I resent "Y'all Qaeda." They are not Southerners...are they? please tell me they're not from down here

When I was in Idaho on vacation a few years ago, i saw more Stars'n'Bars than a Klan rally.
posted by notsnot at 2:14 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

LA Times summary of the incident from a couple of hours earlier today. Seems to cover a lot of the salient points including that the locals aren't interested, and the 150 number was people who marched in Burns but who aren't occupying the building. Also mentions food and a generator.

From the article, the statement of the demands from the occupiers by Ryan Bundy: "The best possible outcome is that the ranchers that have been kicked out of the area, then they will come back and reclaim their land, and the wildlife refuge will be shut down forever and the federal government will relinquish such control," he said.

Ranchers who were kicked out of the area in 1908 when Teddy Roosevelt created the refuge. 5 generations ago.
posted by hippybear at 2:18 PM on January 3, 2016 [29 favorites]

Mary Ellen Carter: "Trending twitter hashtags: #YallQaeda, #YokelHaram, #YeeHawd"

#d'oheash
posted by chavenet at 2:19 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's fire season in Australia. So far we've lost more than 200 homes. This happens every summer. Needless to say, we take firebugs very seriously. The very idea that someone would actually defend arsonists and not become an instant pariah is completely alien to me.
posted by adept256 at 2:20 PM on January 3, 2016 [25 favorites]

2 p.m.

An Oregon sheriff says the group occupying a national wildlife refuge came to town under false pretenses.

Sheriff David Ward says the men came to Harney County in remote southeastern Oregon claiming to be there in support of local ranchers, but were really there to spark a movement to overthrow the government. [ABC News]
posted by hippybear at 2:27 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

adept256: I get the impression that it was somewhat less arson and somewhat more an uncontrolled controlled burn. Yeah, they should face legal consequences for their actions, but personally it seems somewhat different than arson (although not in the eyes of the law). But we shouldn't blame the arsonists on the actions of these asshats.
posted by el io at 2:28 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

And now for a very special episode of Married With Children, we find the Bundy kids all grown up. . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:33 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

In order to avoid potential bloodshed, authorities urge the militia members to remain white
posted by ckape at 2:35 PM on January 3, 2016 [53 favorites]

I think it's interesting that 'Ammon' and 'Captain Moroni' (the "I didn't come here to shoot; I came here to die," guy) are names associated with Latter Day Saint (Mormon) theology. Some of the more fundamentalist - or fashionably fundamentalist-seeming - families often give their sons these and other "LDS" names (Nephi, Lehi, Zoram). But if any of these dudes were named Mohammed? Faik? Ahmed? Boy golly.
posted by sutureselves at 2:37 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sheriff David Ward says the men came to Harney County in remote southeastern Oregon claiming to be there in support of local ranchers, but were really there to spark a movement to overthrow the government.

Hilarious. It's not the Capitol, or the White House, or even a post office. Their chance to overthrow the government is zero. The only people that are going to join their movement are probably already in it in some form.
posted by adept256 at 2:38 PM on January 3, 2016

The government of Abbotsford, BC employed a unique solution to their runaway homelessness problem - dump truckloads of manure on them.

In their case it was completely unacceptable, but here I think it might be very effective. Isolate them in the facility for a few weeks - long enough to strain their supplies - then barricade them in place with a 100-foot-high ridge of moldering pig feces.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 2:39 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

barricade them in place with a 100-foot-high ridge of moldering pig feces.

Invite Trump to give a speech?
posted by adept256 at 2:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

My understanding is that there were at least two fires. The first was a sort of uncontrolled controlled burn, which they claim they notified the authorities about, but they apparently didn't really have the proper permits and it spread onto federal land. There are allegations they lit this fire to cover up their illegal use of federal land. The second was a backfire they lit because they claimed that lightning fires were spreading toward their ranch. That fire apparently threatened some volunteer firefighters who were camped in the area. Backfires can be useful tools, but they are generally lit by firefighters, who know what they are doing and where their fellow firefighters are; you don't really get to just light your own. Further in the background to all this is a long-standing dispute about the wildlife refuge and its management.

Applying terrorism charges to this to force a five year mandatory minimum sentence is nonsense to be sure, but far bigger miscarriages of justice happen every day to people caught with quantities of crack (some with different colored skin from the militia members), yet no one tries to overthrow the government in their name.

And the sad thing is that, if this was really about the Hammonds, the left and the right have a lot in common here when it comes to sentencing reform, ending mandatory minimums, and stopping proprietorial overreach. But instead, we've got armed men taking over an office building in the middle of nowhere, so that's so much for accomplishing anything.
posted by zachlipton at 2:45 PM on January 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Imagine what a political clusterfuck there would be if the Feds quietly decided to not appeal lower-than-minimum sentences for nonviolent drug offences...
posted by BungaDunga at 2:55 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Law enforcement can't win. Teargas them and arrest 'em? Deplorable. Be patient and wait 'em out? Apparently also deplorable.

The answer to "some people are treated horribly by cops" isn't "all people should be treated uniformly horribly by cops."
posted by desjardins at 2:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [24 favorites]

hippybear, I won't derail the thread with this any longer, but claiming that Eastern Oregon generally doesn't have a historical anti-federalism trend is not in line with my direct experience. Great that the locals aren't on board with the full-on crazy, though.
posted by angrycat at 3:04 PM on January 3, 2016

I lived in La Grande for a few years. Not sure how direct your experience was, but I hung out in a rancher/railroader bar for much of that time. We can compare notes sometime, but probably not in this thread.
posted by hippybear at 3:06 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

It turns out that in practice most people's rhetoric and actions are quite inconsistent with each other, thankfully. Loudly saying "Fuck the hippies and the feds" is one thing, being uncivil to said hippies and feds is another, roughing up the hippies is yet another, and pulling guns on the feds is something else entirely.
posted by PMdixon at 3:07 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Since people were talking about anarchist or left wing interventions above...

I don't know if this would be a smart idea at all, but it would be amusing to see what happened if a group of Black Lives Matter folks came to join the protest, eager and earnest to make a coalition with these folks, and carrying weapons. Maybe if the Yes Men had a budget for bullet proof vests...
posted by idiopath at 3:07 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

This needs some kind of gonzo intervention.

For example, per Michael Moore and TV Nation (the "Love Night" episode):

Sending a mariachi band to a KKK rally or a multiracial chorus line to an Aryan Nations compound.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:08 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Thanks for that background, zachlipton. Using the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act does seem like a strange vehicle for prosecuting an arson case in the absence of any exacerbating circumstance. And I have to wonder why the US government decided to kick the anthill after the judge overrode sentencing guidelines (though the connection to the Bundy ranch is a tipoff).

I think it's definitely something that should be part of the broader discussion, because you're absolutely right--the left and right have common ground here in sentencing reform broadly.

Just wish these assholes had followed the appeals process like law abiding citizens. Or organized a protest that didn't involve armed insurrection. Or taken up an 8th amendment case. Or any of several dozen better options.
posted by Room 101 at 3:09 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Oregonian reported that at the appeals court, the judge asked each of them if they had anything to say, and each declined to make any comment. If they were appearing pro se, they probably lost out right there. Even if not, it might have been wise for them to respond to her.
posted by mmiddle at 3:10 PM on January 3, 2016

The group is tiny. Bundy brothers, three friends (Blaine Cooper, Ryan Payne and Jon Ritzheimer) and a couple wives appears to be pretty much the entire homesteader troop.

Cooper and Ritzheimer attended a Trump rally 2 weeks ago and promptly went outside to try to provoke the first Muslims they could find. Actually suggest not watching link as it contains nothing intelligent or positive and is provided more just as proof of observation.

The first fire
Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire.
posted by phoque at 3:11 PM on January 3, 2016 [23 favorites]

I get the impression that it was somewhat less arson and somewhat more an uncontrolled controlled burn.

The link to your controlled burning refers to the Willamette Valley, which is over 200 miles away across the Cascade Range. The Willamette Valley typically gets 50 inches of rain a year. The Harney Basin gets less than 9 inches. The idea of controlled burning during the height of fire season in a desert is ridiculous.

You are making foolishly ignorant arguments in defense of these people.
posted by JackFlash at 3:14 PM on January 3, 2016 [28 favorites]

Please just nobody die.
posted by Talez at 3:14 PM on January 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

Law enforcement can't win. Teargas them and arrest 'em? Deplorable. Be patient and wait 'em out? Apparently also deplorable.

Or how about what the police are actually doing, letting them get food deliveries, bring their kids, other shit that other protesters don't get to do?
posted by Iax at 3:18 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

The group is tiny. Bundy brothers, three friends (Blaine Cooper, Ryan Payne and Jon Ritzheimer) and a couple wives appears to be pretty much the entire homesteader troop.

Something to note: that's a fraction of the size of these crazies.
posted by el io at 3:28 PM on January 3, 2016

Stop calling them a militia. They are not a militia.

Because the militia were heroes? I find this talking point hillarious... because it involves both sides (the Bundy militia and their opponents) claiming the militia is a wonderful American institution in a completely ahistorical way. Yes there was the American Revolution militia... but there was also the corruption and immorality at muster days and general uselessness of the 19th century American militia, or 20th century events like the Ludlow Massacre and the Kent State Massacre.
posted by Jahaza at 3:28 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

It would be a mistake to assume that because the Cause appeals to knuckle-draggers the tactics are not useful. There is no way to get past their opening move, to create a highly publicized demonstration of their stance. This is actually a brilliant tactic, for as far as it goes.

If I were a member of a right-wing organization that wanted to garner support, I would try to figure out at way to force the federal government into a reactionary posture, while alienating as few people as possible. I could use the incident in Idaho a few years back, or the fed's tactical antics at Waco as models to assess the Fed's response. (The working theory is that the Fed is not very flexible in situations like this.)

I could set up a highly visible bunker in the middle of nowhere and occupy it with a couple dozen fairly well schooled gun freaks who'd like nothing better than to see themselves as martyrs for the cause, and await an assault. Meanwhile I would use various media to get national coverage, on the theory that a few thousand of my brethren will be drawn into the cause.

For this model I would look to the incidents along the Canadian border, where Native Americans stood their ground, and the recent dustup in Iraq, where our efforts helped to consolidate a whole generation of disaffected young Muslim fighters into a stupid cause. In this case these assholes take the role played by the Native Americans--preyed upon by the federal government. This particular place has the advantage of protecting the general public if the shooting starts. The "grazing rights" issue is not the central issue, of course; federal control is the issue, and it's linked to a broad spectrum of general malcontent and fantasy.

My strategy in this case would be to form a nucleus of militant dissidents who share my politics, and garner support for a broad-base political force. I would assume that the federal government wouldn't want to engage in a civil war, so they would back down before engaging in one, but I wouldn't mind starting one. This building would be my rallying point. If this small force gets overrun by troops, then they will become martyrs to the cause. This is to say that not all the prime organizers are in that building, so it won't be over when it's over.

It doesn't matter whether these lunatics have logic on their side, because it just so happens that quite a few thousands of these people believe the defense of the Constitution should not be left in the hands of the Federal government--many of them have direct issues with the BLM, dating back generations; in particular, land use reforms from the 1970's have redirected their grazing allotments. This hasn't actually hurt most of them, but the idea pisses them off at some visceral level.

My version of a working solution is fairly costly, and pretty much low key. I assume these guys are electronically connected via whatever they have: facebook, phones, maybe even internet. First, I cordon off the area with a military perimeter. Then I would establish line of sight observation posts with floodlights at more or less regular intervals, to keep their building lit up, no shadows on any side. The floodlights give these yahoos something to shoot at night (it's easy enough to replace these fixtures), and it has the effect of having the only shots being fired come from their position. After the perimeter is set up I bring in a tactical EW unit to jam their receivers--no cell phones, no internet.

I would not allow anybody in or out. I would not try to communicated with them. I would just let them run out of food. If they want to talk they can send out an envoy, who would immediately be put in handcuffs and taken away. I don't know what the logistics of their building is, but I suppose it may have, at the most, a well, operated by electricity from a generator. I wouldn't try to mess with that. Let them get hungry, but not thirsty. In the meantime I would instruct my snipers to let any individuals who want to come to the perimeter to do so as long as they weren't carrying a weapon. If someone with a rifle charged the perimeter, I would instruct the snipers to wait until the were close, then shoot off one of his feet. I would send a team in an armored vehicle, with a medic, to retrieve the wounded man and bring him out. The soldiers on the perimeter would be instructed not to return any fire during this retrieval.

During this time, the perimeter forces must have outward-looking security. Were I one of the organizers, I would like to have a mobile strike force to run the perimeter carrying supplies to the defenders. The model for this strategy would be the siege of Khe Sanh, where at some point the attacking forces basically run out of steam. Normally the besieged forces lose, but if they can be resupplied and are not worried about being slaughtered, they may choose to just wait it out. In this case they have no way to communicate with the outside, so they are left to their own imaginations.

After a month I would call in by loud speaker and invite any who wanted to leave to approach the perimeter unarmed. I would then put any of those knuckle-dragging shitheads who'd had enough in handcuffs, and into the custody of some federal authority on charges of terrorism. I don't believe treason would be a viable charge here. Just terrorism. That charge may have to be modified if these assholes have the fire-discipline to not shoot anybody, but that's down the road. Right now they all are terrorists.

Even doing this, the feds will not come out smelling like a rose. Too many issues regarding the interface between ranchers, 2nd amendment mavens and the federal government exist for the trial to be uncomplicated. So the charges, at most will top out at maybe some sort of reckless endangerment, unless the feds can manage to get one of their agents killed without mounting an assault. (This is what the light towers are for. You can bet that at least a few of these assholes are very good shots; but not all of them understand muzzle control, so it may turn out that one of the guys who goes up the towen to change a lightbulb will get shot. If that happens, then anyone who doesn't surrender immediately becomes complicit in some sort of federal charge of manslaughter, perhaps murder.)

By the way, Oregon isn't under attack. We all are, and the issue spans racism. If we can't mount a better response than Waco--just get frustrated and attack--then we may have to rethink how this country needs to run itself. I don't know if my thoughts are the best way to go about this. I'd hope those folks up there have a way to deal with it rather than validating the paranoid fantasies of these assholes.
posted by mule98J at 3:36 PM on January 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

So it has been widely reported that a militia has seized a federal building? I think some honest scrutiny of the terms being used is in order.

These reports are accurate if militia is defined as "an assemblage of guys dressed like Roy Rogers, numbering anywhere from 15 (reported by someone who actually went up there) to 150 (claimed by the group itself)".

And what immediately comes to mind when you hear the words federal building? Probably something like the Murrah Building, or a large facility in your own town housing courts and various federal agencies? The reports are accurate as far as the building being a public facility administered by the federal government, but we've all seen this sort of 'federal building' if we visited a national park or tourist attraction. They are better known to most people as visitor's centers.

The reports are accurate if seized is redefined as "drove my pickup truck 50 miles into the middle of nowhere and hung out at the visitors center while posing for pictures with guns after inviting the media".

Now, I admittedly think if these guys were black or any random people of middle eastern descent they'd all be dead by now.

But OMG, such hyperbole.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:51 PM on January 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

3. The ‘Patriot’ movement is a child of the White Power movement
Many of the tactics and talking points being used were popularized in the 1970s by the white supremacist group Posse Comitatus. This group promoted the “Christian Patriot” movement, advocated the formation of “Citizens Militias,” helped forge an idiosyncratic reading of the Constitution, said the county sheriff was the highest elected official that should be obeyed, and opposed federal environmental restrictions.

Over the years, these ideas took on a life of their own, even though few of the activists using these ideas today are ideological white supremacists. For example, they still try to recruit county sheriffs; the sheriff in Harney County (where Burns is located) was asked to provide sanctuary for the Hammonds from the federal government, although he refused.

Activists such as Cliven Bundy’s son, Ammon Bundy (who is leading the Malheur occupation), claim that what is happening to the Hammonds is unconstitutional. This view of the Constitution is based on a position promoted by Posse Comitatus. They held that the Constitution could be interpreted by individual right-wing activists in a way that allowed them to have more jurisdiction than federal courts do. The Sovereign Citizens are the best-known movement that promotes these crank legal theories today. For example, Pete Santilli, who livestreamed the Burns march and went to the Malheur takeover, promotes these ideas.

I Studied Oregon’s Militia Movement. Here’s 5 Things You Need to Know
posted by standardasparagus at 4:02 PM on January 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

I would not allow anybody in or out.

Therein lies the crux. The reason I think that they're allowing "deliveries" is that multiple men with long guns are probably making the deliveries and are ready to go out in a blaze of glory if they're impeded. The BLM isn't an agency that wants to start shit because it puts thousands of their uniformed employees at risk. They only have 300 rangers and special agents who are armed and trained. There are more wingnuts and they are far more dispersed than the BLM's enforcement agents. The other 11,000 odd employees are sitting ducks for ambushes in national parks along with undefended and unsecured federal buildings like visitor's centers and offices. If every wingnut that threatened them over the past decade saw any firefight as a green light for an open season on BLM employees it would be a literal slaughter.
posted by Talez at 4:04 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

The reason I think that they're allowing "deliveries" is that multiple men with long guns are probably making the deliveries

Interesting speculation. Any evidence for this?
posted by hippybear at 4:06 PM on January 3, 2016

Interesting speculation. Any evidence for this?

Because if I was in a gun crazy wingnut trying to provoke the Federal Government it's the most likely route I would take. Put a few guys in a truck with their AR-15s along with the supplies and dare the BLM to try and stop them.
posted by Talez at 4:10 PM on January 3, 2016

Supplies
posted by phoque at 4:16 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Supplies

Astonishing. Was Vault-Tec involved?
posted by adept256 at 4:20 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

BLM = Bureau of Land Management
and
BLM = Black Lives Matter

Some comments in this thread were baffling to me until I realized this.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 4:20 PM on January 3, 2016 [40 favorites]

Still, it's speculation, with no actual reports. One article I read (that I can't find quickly on Google, because my Google-fu is not strong at the moment) talked about a woman who was driving an RV who took them some chile yesterday. This article says that a supporter says they are leaving and returning freely. She traveled there from nearly 300 miles away, from the supposed Left Coast region of WA.

No reports of men with long guns making armed deliveries of supplies to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge Headquarters I can find anywhere. Don't stoke the fires with speculation. Look for reports, and share those.
posted by hippybear at 4:20 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

So ... looking at all the freaking excerise-equipment there, it seems that maybe this is really just a New Years resolution gone horribly wrong.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 4:21 PM on January 3, 2016 [24 favorites]

squats and oats brah
posted by PMdixon at 4:25 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Amanda Peacher's twitter postings are great: "I asked how #bundymilitia got into the refuge buildings. They found a whole set of keys." If that is true, whomever left the keys under the mat will have some explaining to do in their yearly evaluation.

Put a few guys in a truck with their AR-15s along with the supplies and dare the BLM to try and stop them.

I'm sure that the guys in the supply trucks are armed, but BLM is not the lead agency; it would be the FBI and/or OSP who would make any response. But as Peacher notes, "I haven't seen a single law enforcement vehicle out here." At the moment they are being totally hands off, having the learned the lessons of Waco and Ruby Ridge a little too well.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:28 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

wow, I have to admit, I didn't really get the whole "MeFi doesn't do Southerners well" thing until Y'allQaeda in this thread. Seriously?
posted by threeants at 4:33 PM on January 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Or how about what the police are actually doing, letting them get food deliveries, bring their kids, other shit that other protesters don't get to do?

Like these protestors in Minneapolis who camped out in front of a police precinct for a week? Where they were allowed to set fires in the street and obtain"pizza and doughnuts and [...] coffee"? Granted, they were cleared out, but they were there, directly in front of a police precinct, blocking a road, for a week. I'd say that's unusually indulgent. (Note: I agree with their cause.)
posted by desjardins at 4:34 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm sure that the guys in the supply trucks are armed, but BLM is not the lead agency; it would be the FBI and/or OSP who would make any response.

You sure? The Bundy incident was BLM as the lead with ATF backing them up.
posted by Talez at 4:37 PM on January 3, 2016

I'd imagine that the economic impact of this locally is actually a positive.

It's already paying off for the locals:
"As marchers reached the courthouse, they tossed hundreds of pennies at the locked door. Their message: Civilians were buying back their government. After the march passed, two girls swooped in to scavenge the pennies."
posted by JackFlash at 4:37 PM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

This aggression will not stand, man.

This isn't quite Harpers Ferry, though, as that had violence and federal weapons.
posted by persona au gratin at 4:38 PM on January 3, 2016

If we don't immediately suppress these rebels, their actions will serve to radicalize more extremists.
posted by mikelieman at 4:45 PM on January 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Charlie Pierce, as usual, brings it all together.
posted by notsnot at 4:47 PM on January 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

Yeah, the way the feds' Fabian strategy ends is with another OK City.
posted by PMdixon at 4:59 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

If we don't immediately suppress these rebels, their actions will serve to radicalize more extremists.

Or not. Give them enough rope, and they may do something educational.
posted by sneebler at 5:01 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Always relevant.
posted by entropicamericana at 5:05 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, are all men called Bundy objectionable in one way or another? Can history present us with an acceptable Bundy?
posted by Grangousier at 5:09 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

If we don't immediately suppress these rebels, their actions will serve to radicalize more extremists.

I don't know, the suppression of the folks in Waco seemed to do a great job at radicalizing a whole bunch of folks. Don't make these asshats into martyrs.
posted by el io at 5:09 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Can history present us with an acceptable Bundy?

Al Bundy.
posted by Talez at 5:11 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

He was Ted's brother, no?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:12 PM on January 3, 2016

Bundys John Elwood, Alan, and Hezekiah all look OK.
posted by PMdixon at 5:13 PM on January 3, 2016

Buck Bundy?
posted by LindsayIrene at 5:13 PM on January 3, 2016

(But not Edgar, obviously. Pre-Raphaelite influences == baddy)
posted by PMdixon at 5:14 PM on January 3, 2016

I'll be fascinated to see what Trump does about this. The man has a terrifying capacity to glom onto events that somehow generate a toxic cloud of paranoia regarding the supposed ineffectiveness/tyranny of the status quo.

If he doesn't appropriate this, maybe that's a great sign that this will be resolved peacefully and the Bundys will just be objects of great ridicule.
posted by angrycat at 5:15 PM on January 3, 2016

Waiting on the Lin Manuel Miranda treatment, TBH.

Ammon: Yo our dad's Cliven
Ryan: We enliven
Ammon: A debate on
Getting ranchers back to ranching
As our movement's branching
Into getting loggers back to logging
White supremacists back to blogging
Ryan: We got guns with a capital "G"

Ammon: As we make stand...
Ryan: Our stand?

Ammon: Yeeeah, in this sanctuar-y!
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:16 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think the strategy here for authorities is to treat them exactly like the protestors, let them do their thing for a short time, then go kick them out. Someone is going to have to walk up and arrest them, pretending they don't have guns. They want to imply violence by having weapons, but also the deniability that they weren't going to use them? No. Call their bluff.

Unfortunately it's going to take some nerves of steel for the poor LEOs that have to do the arresting.
posted by ctmf at 5:19 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Wow. What a shitstorm.

Yeah, there aren't 150 people inside the building. I've been to this park and this building, and I grew up a few counties over to the east. The nearest building that could hold 150 people is the high school gym in Burns (Burns Union High School has about 350 students).

The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters is about the size of a suburban three-bedroom house. It's got a parking lot that can hold a few dozen cars. It's technically in the post office district of Princetown (16 miles to the east). Here's a picture of Princeton's post office. (TLDR: It's a single-wide trailer home.)

Nearby Burns, with a population of 2500, is the largest city within 120 miles of itself. The nearest towns larger than 5000 are both 130 miles away in either direction. This section of the country is about as far away from anything as you can get and still be in the lower 48. If you haven't been out here, don't go. It's desolate in a way that's not easy for non-locals to understand. Eastern Oregon, which is a little bigger than Florida, has about 13% of the state's population, most of which live in the Columbia Gorge, around Bend, or next to Idaho. Most of the middle area is unpopulated.

That said, if you show up with a bunch of your redneck buddies, guns in hand, to lock down and occupy a patch of federal property, you're an occupying force and not a peaceful protest. You pull this Yokel Haram nonsense and everybody should get to spend the next few years of their lives locked up in federal prison.
posted by phoebus at 5:23 PM on January 3, 2016 [27 favorites]

Reporter Amelia Templeton tweeted about the plan before it happened and reported 6-12 people involved when she went to look.
posted by phoque at 5:24 PM on January 3, 2016

i think the major danger in this whole situation is of accidental fire - repeated water bombings by aerial firefighters are necessary to prevent a tragedy from happening - many sorties at 800 gallons a piece will probably be necessary to thoroughly soak vehicles, the parking lot, and the exterior of the station

after which we can drop a few pairs of ice skates for those who wish to leave, the lows being below 15 degrees for a good part of the upcoming week
posted by pyramid termite at 5:37 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

And now I'm wondering... if this place is going to be occupied for years, "as long as it takes" or whatever, how are these men going to run their lives back home? Are they hiring people to help on the ranches they've abandoned to take this stand? Is there going to be a swap-out roster established so it's continually occupied but not by the same people? Are they depending on donations to support them at their outpost and also their families they've left in whatever state that isn't Oregon they came from?

These sorts of logistical questions are interesting to me.
posted by hippybear at 5:39 PM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

We keep hearing about "responsible" and "moderate" gun owners. Why have none of them stood up to condemn the actions of these violent extremists?
posted by stet at 5:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [64 favorites]

These sorts of logistical questions are interesting to me.

(You know the actual answer is "they haven't thought this part through at all beyond vague fantasies of inspiring an army of supporters," I assume.)
posted by PMdixon at 5:43 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

If we don't immediately suppress these rebels, their actions will serve to radicalize more extremists.

If there was an easy solution to this immediate problem, such as a very large incendiary device hot enough to melt their guns, that would not also cause long-term problems such as even more armed loons barricading themselves in the outhouses in national parks, it would already have been implemented.

The government is hoping this problem somehow solves itself while they hold long meetings to try to figure out a relatively peaceful solution that doesn't make them look like bad guys in an election year. If you have a cunning plan, let them know. It can't involve a shootout or bombing or large armored vehicles or black helicopters, and it can't involve starving them out just so their children can weep to Fox News over pictures of their dear old daddies' ribs sticking out come February. Maybe begin the process of seizing and selling everything they own to pay fees and fines? I don't know.
posted by pracowity at 5:44 PM on January 3, 2016

Isn't there some kind of magic incantation involving gold flag fringe, a bellowed "I don't recognize your authority" and assorted sprinklings of derp that will send the Feds packing immediately ?
posted by dr_dank at 5:48 PM on January 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

The discrepancy between how the 'black lives matter' movement was/is being portrayed in the media versus how these terrorists are being treated is mind boggling. Just a reminder: in Ferguson, 150 unarmed black people occupied a blocked off street, they were gassed, sprayed and shot with rubber bullets.

Armed Militia Seized A Federal Building. The Media Called Them ‘Peaceful.’
posted by homunculus at 5:48 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

They should just send in a bunch of sheep. Nothing gets a cattleman riled up like a sheep.
posted by stet at 5:49 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

If there was an easy solution to this immediate problem, such as a very large incendiary device hot enough to melt their guns, that would not also cause long-term problems such as even more armed loons barricading themselves in the outhouses in national parks, it would already have been implemented.

Not to mention the damage done to a vital water way for migratory birds, which is why TR set it aside in 1908 and why the building they are in even exists to begin with.
posted by hippybear at 5:52 PM on January 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

While I don't like the discrepancy between how law enforcement is handling this mess and the way it handles more peaceful but less politically popular protests, this is probably closer to the appropriate way to handle them. The only problem with the way they handled the Bundy ranch situation is that they didn't follow it up with a bunch of arrests like they should have.
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:56 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Supplies

I'm actually surprised they didn't bring a year's worth of freeze dried food and MREs.
posted by cosmic.osmo at 5:58 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not to mention the damage done to a vital water way for migratory birds

You don't think a simple fire would hurt the waterway much in the long term, do you?
posted by pracowity at 5:59 PM on January 3, 2016

Isn't there some kind of magic incantation involving gold flag fringe, a bellowed "I don't recognize your authority" and assorted sprinklings of derp that will send the Feds packing immediately ?

MALHEUR NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE

=

LAUD ALL GENUINE LAW IF HE REFORM IT
posted by threeants at 6:00 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

concidence??
posted by threeants at 6:00 PM on January 3, 2016

I assumed there'd be more of these supplies.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:09 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not to mention the damage done to a vital water way for migratory birds

You don't think a simple fire would hurt the waterway much in the long term, do you?

I believe "a large incendiary device hot enough to melt their guns" is probably not "a simple fire". Perhaps I'm wrong.

Anyway, how many years of having no vegetation would it take for migratory birds to have their numbers start to diminish? One? Three? I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure the birds aren't there just for the water.
posted by hippybear at 6:14 PM on January 3, 2016

I assumed there'd be more of these supplies.

Or these.
posted by ctmf at 6:21 PM on January 3, 2016

Tonight, bless twitter for helping us laugh a bit when we want to cry.

In addition to this tweet, there's also (under a pic of a couple open-carry dicks in a store)
You might be #YallQaeda if you need rifles to shop for plungers @HomeDepot

#YallQaeda #Yeehawd #VanillaISIS
posted by NorthernLite at 6:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

but BLM is not the lead agency

It definitely isn't. This wildlife refuge is operated by the Fish and Wildlife Service, which is a much smaller agency with minimal law enforcement powers (apparently 261 agents in 8 offices). They mostly investigate poaching and animal smuggling, not violent criminals.
posted by miyabo at 6:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

miyabo, the FBI has the lead in this incident.
posted by futz at 6:48 PM on January 3, 2016

You sure? The Bundy incident was BLM as the lead with ATF backing them up.

Yes, I am sure. As noted just above, the refuge is managed by USFWS, but the reporting currently says that the FBI is the lead agency for the federal law enforcement response. (What, is USFWS going to send in their crack team of wildlife biologists to study these bozos?)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Stop calling them a militia. They are not a militia.

Because the militia were heroes?

Uh, no? Because an armed mob of anti-government fanatics does not = a militia? And in using the term militia they can claim some legitimacy under the second amendment, which obscures the fact (for much of the public) that what they're engaging in is straight up, right-wing domestic terrorism.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:58 PM on January 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

We shouldn't call these fools a militia or terrorists. That would be be giving them too much credit. They are cowardly burglars (they broke in the building when no one was around) and trespassers and noisy clowns making empty threats. So far, they haven't done anything to terrorize anyone. Were I in charge, I would leave them incommunicado (perhaps with an electromagnetic pulse to trash all their computers, cell phones, radios and dish TV's) and let them stew there. When they finally got bored and left, I would change them rent for use of the building, plus damages, indict the ringleaders for burglary, trespassing and criminal mischief (vandalism), then sentence them to mopping floors in a soup kitchen. They are idiot redneck punks, nothing more. They don't deserve our anger or our outrage, only our ridicule and contempt. YeeHawd, indeed.
posted by tommyD at 7:04 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

I talked with my brother. School is closed for the week, and he's been told not to come into work tomorrow. He says that the militia guys have really alienated the locals. For one thing one of their leaders compared county residents to sheep who need to be protected from the Federal wolves.

There's also a big (well. big for the area) birdwatching event at the Refuge in April that brings in a lot of tourist dollars. If the milita occupation is still ongoing, lots of people are going to be really pissed.
posted by gamera at 7:05 PM on January 3, 2016 [28 favorites]

What spurred the armed occupation of a federal wildlife refuge in southeast Oregon - "“When the federal government was stopped from enforcing the law at gunpoint that energized this entire movement,” said Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center, who said the number of self-described anti-government militia groups is believed to have grown by one-third in 2015. “When you have a big win like they did at the Bundy ranch, it emboldens people. . . . It is definitely a recipe for disaster.”"

These all look like resource conflicts the world over. Kenya, Argentina, Kazakhstan, Pakistan. Militants will seize on political, religious and cultural justifications, as usually saying "we want more money!" is a hard sell in this asym environment.

Anyway we're talking about Borderlanders with an extreme interpretation of their religion engaged in a resource conflict. Wonder what Andrew Exum has to say?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:06 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

He says that the militia guys have really alienated the locals. For one thing one of their leaders compared county residents to sheep who need to be protected from the Federal wolves.

This is sounding more and more like Che's old foco strategy and I expect it to be just as (in)effective in Oregon as it was in Bolivia.
posted by wuwei at 7:11 PM on January 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Because an armed mob of anti-government fanatics does not = a militia?

If you are armed and organized enough to take over a building (unlocked and undefended though it may be), you pretty much meet the colloquial definition of a militia in the sense of a paramilitary force. On top of that there is the whole "reserve militia" thing ("every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age who is not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia," according to wikipedia) which gives rhetorical cover for just about anything you might want to do, whether or not it has any actual validity.

The question isn't why these doofuses are claiming to be a militia -- it's why no one on the other side of the political spectrum has tried it out, since it seems to provide an extraordinary amount of cover.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:16 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you are armed and organized enough to take over a building (unlocked and undefended though it may be), you pretty much meet the colloquial definition of a militia in the sense of a paramilitary force.

Hang on. I'm personally capable of occupying an unlocked building. The cops would hopefully gently shoo me out of there once I sobered up, but that's a terrible definition.
posted by figurant at 7:41 PM on January 3, 2016 [24 favorites]

“When you have a big win like they did at the Bundy ranch, it emboldens people. . . . It is definitely a recipe for disaster.”

People like the Bundys seem to have the Feds painted into a corner. If the government does nothing, the nutjobs win. If they use any force at all, even non-lethal force, the nutjobs win again where it counts...with their fellow sovereign citizens. God forbid gunfire should erupt, because now the Feds have played into the exact image of a violent oppressor these nuts so dearly believe in.

I really don't know what the best play is for a good outcome here. I suppose just let them sit there and bore the public. But, I'm not convinced these folks will sit still like that. If the Feds just do nothing, I have a feeling the occupiers will do...something...to try and goad the Feds into doing something.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:42 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

So here's the story behind Captain Moroni.

“If our (U.S.) Constitution is an inspired document by our Lord Jesus Christ, then isn’t it scripture?” Bundy asked.

“Yes,” a chorus of voices replied.

“Isn’t it the same as the Book of Mormon and the Bible?” Bundy asked.

“Absolutely,” the audience answered.

Wow.
posted by adept256 at 7:47 PM on January 3, 2016 [31 favorites]

Hell of bibliolatry
posted by Countess Elena at 7:55 PM on January 3, 2016

They are inviting locals, loggers, off roaders, grazers all things to enliven the local economy.

Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if any actual loggers come in and start taking trees. I can't see the BLM letting that happen.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:00 PM on January 3, 2016

There really aren't many trees in that area. It's mostly marshland and grassland.
posted by hippybear at 8:03 PM on January 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Maybe this will go viral and the gun nut militias can actually start an insurrection. Then, Obama can go full Lincoln on them in the last few months of his presidency.
posted by rdr at 8:04 PM on January 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

The question isn't why these doofuses are claiming to be a militia -- it's why no one on the other side of the political spectrum has tried it out, since it seems to provide an extraordinary amount of cover.

When the Black Panthers tried that in California in the late 1960s, Ronald Reagan signed into law a bill that prohibited open carry in the state.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:05 PM on January 3, 2016 [21 favorites]

There were fire hoses and policemen with truncheons at peaceful civil rights protests parading in the streets in the 60s. Men and women wearing suits and white shirts and dresses with nylons politely assembled and were subjected to violence because of it. These people were asking for basic human rights.

There were beat-downs and National Guardmen shooting (and occasionally killing) peaceful college students during sit-ins on the lawn in front of administrative buildings in the 70s. These people were asking to get out of an unlawful war.

Now it's OK for assholes with LOADED GUNS to be occupying Federal building and demand they be given property and privilege over and above all other US citizens.

Our country is seriously fucked.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:06 PM on January 3, 2016 [26 favorites]

Now it's OK for assholes with LOADED GUNS to be occupying Federal building and demand they be given property and privilege over and above all other US citizens.

To be fair, these Bundy guys represent the people who were beating the shit out of civil rights demonstrators in the 60s, so...things kind of cancel themselves out and a standstill ensues.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:10 PM on January 3, 2016

I live in area that is filled with people not dissimilar to these idiots and I only pay them passing attention (don't feed the trolls, I say) so I wasn't terribly familiar with the Bundys. I didn't realize there was a Mormon angle there. That makes sense.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:25 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Forget the 60s, the same exact shit is still happening to actual peaceful protesters right now.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:26 PM on January 3, 2016 [27 favorites]

When you have a big win like they did at the Bundy ranch, it emboldens people.

Emboldened. Please. I was against these dipsticks, until this travesty.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 8:32 PM on January 3, 2016

Maybe this will go viral and the gun nut militias can actually start an insurrection. Then, Obama can go full Lincoln on them in the last few months of his presidency.

Yeah not great timing to do something that will piss off the fed. Obama is in serious Honey Badger mode at the moment.
posted by jimmythefish at 8:32 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you're interested in the history of right-wing anti-government hysteria over federal land management, this guy's Twitter timeline is a very good one to follow right now.
posted by mostly vowels at 8:45 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

The last protest team Bundy was involved in resulted in the arrests of five organizers, many weeks later, with at least two convicted, jailed and fined, for damages to a Utah canyon archaeological site.
posted by Brian B. at 8:47 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

To people equating this to Ferguson or the civil rights movement.

Ferguson was not a federal case. It was county police. Most of the worst of the civil rights was also county or city or state actors. In general the feds are much less likely to overreact to provocations with a display of force. Also the 60s were 50+ years ago. That's a long ass time when talking about how the government responds to provocation. I mean 50 years before that they openly shot at unionizers, and 50 years before that slavery was legal. The world changes.

(That being said, yes white militias get treated differently than black protesters, no doubt about it.)
posted by aspo at 9:53 PM on January 3, 2016

threeants:

wow, I have to admit, I didn't really get the whole "MeFi doesn't do Southerners well" thing until Y'allQaeda in this thread. Seriously?

Agreed. In good faith, I'd take those comments to be ham-handed attempts to get across the point that domestic terrorism by white, "Christian" Americans should be taken as seriously as "Islamic" terrorism, and well they should because the photo of Chris Field holding Baylee Almon is too easily forgotten when we're talking about these self-appointed "militias." It's who they are and what they represent.

Now, this timeline really suggests more of a Northern influence in getting the whole movement up and running, so to slag it off as a "Southern" thing is historically wrong in a big way, up to and including the Oklahoma City bombing:

Sept. 11, 1990: President Bush, describing the post-Cold War world, outlines his vision of a "New World Order." Conspiracy-minded "Patriots" take this as a slip of the tongue revealing secret plans to create a one-world government.

February 1992: White supremacist theorist Louis Beam calls for "leaderless resistance," or cells of fighters who report to no one. In coming years, many in the Patriot movement will pick up the concept.

April 2, 1992: Terry Nichols, who will one day be convicted of conspiracy in the Oklahoma City bombing, renounces his U.S. citizenship, saying he "follow[s] the common law," indicating his early participation in the Patriot movement.

August 1992: James "Bo" Gritz, a Vietnam war hero admired by many Americans, calls for civilian militias during his "populist" campaign for the presidency.

Aug. 31, 1992: White supremacist Randy Weaver surrenders after an 11-day standoff at his cabin on Ruby Ridge, Idaho, that left his wife, son and a U.S. marshal dead. The incident galvanizes many on the radical right.

Oct. 23, 1992: Anti-Semitic Christian Identity pastor Pete Peters hosts the "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" in Estes Park, Colo., where 160 extremists, reacting to Ruby Ridge, lay out strategies that will help shape the militia movement.

Feb. 28, 1993: Four federal agents and several cultists are killed in a gunfight when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms raids the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. The 51-day standoff that follows rivets the nation.

April 19, 1993: The FBI tries to end the Waco standoff by injecting tear gas into a building that subsequently bursts into flames, leaving almost 80 Davidians dead. More than any other event, the debacle ignites the militia movement.

July 8, 1993: In a stinging rebuke to federal law enforcement, a jury acquits Randy Weaver and another man of murdering a U.S. marshal during the Ruby Ridge standoff. Evidence emerges that the FBI loosened its normal rules of engagement and covered up that fact later.

November 1993: The Brady Bill, imposing a waiting period for handgun purchasers, is signed into law, infuriating many gun enthusiasts. Anger at the bill, along with a 1994 ban on some assault weapons, helps fuel the militia movement.

Jan. 1, 1994: The first major modern militia, the Militia of Montana, is officially inaugurated. John Trochmann, a white supremacist supporter of Randy Weaver, heads it.

April 1994: The Michigan Militia, soon to grow into the nation's largest militia group with up to 6,000 members, is formed by gun shop owner Norm Olson and Ray Southwell.

May 1994: In a speech to the antigovernment U.S. Taxpayers Party, a militant abortion opponent calls on churches to form their own militias, reflecting the increasing convergence of Patriot and anti-abortion activists.

Aug. 4, 1994: Two members of the Minnesota Patriots Council are arrested for making the deadly toxin ricin and later are convicted of plotting to poison federal agents.

Sept. 19, 1994: Self-appointed militia "general" Linda Thompson calls for an armed march on Washington, D.C., prompting other Patriots to renounce her as foolhardy and suicidal. She ultimately rescinds her call.

Sept. 28, 1994: In one of the first acts of the Oklahoma conspiracy, Terry Nichols helps steal explosives from a Kansas quarry. He will help acquire many other materials before leaving co-conspirator Timothy McVeigh a letter urging him to "go for it."

And, again, this is what "go for it" looks like years later:

Every April 19, Aren Almon Kok, Baylee’s mother, is faced with not just marking down another year since the worst day in her life, but also watching as time erodes the memories of the 366 days she was able to spend with her daughter.

This is what the silly shitbirds occupying that little office stand for, and it's pretty goddamn sad.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:58 PM on January 3, 2016 [21 favorites]

“If our (U.S.) Constitution is an inspired document by our Lord Jesus Christ, then isn’t it scripture?” Bundy asked.

“Yes,” a chorus of voices replied.

“Isn’t it the same as the Book of Mormon and the Bible?” Bundy asked.

“Absolutely,” the audience answered.

JEISIS
posted by futz at 10:06 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

The hypocrisy here just burns: these guys want to "return" the refuge -- but not to the tribes that used to live there, just to the ranchers who never did. That area never was private property: it was public domain land. No ranchers lost anything when the refuge was set aside.
posted by suelac at 10:23 PM on January 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

Wait wait they think Jesus WROTE the constitution?

What?

Holy shit?
posted by emptythought at 10:40 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

No, nothing that silly. The guys who did write it were being told what to write by the holy spirit. When they weren't hacking out the parts of the bible they didn't like with a razor and rearranging it.
posted by ctmf at 10:51 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

A Personal History With The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
posted by RakDaddy at 10:58 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Not a peep from the GOP? Not a single tweet from Trump? Not even Ted Cruz, Cruzplaining the situation at a church revival? Are reporters even asking for their response?
posted by Room 641-A at 11:00 PM on January 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Forget seizing oil fields, manufacturing, or communications and control centers. If you want to bring the federal government to its knees, you have to grab small administration/storage buildings in the middle of nature preserves.

This is why Rommel lost the Africa campaign! Patton prevented the Afrika Corps from gaining control of a hut.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:05 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Not a peep from the GOP? Not a single tweet from Trump? Not even Ted Cruz, Cruzplaining the situation at a church revival? Are reporters even asking for their response?

I mean, we might hear something, so take this with a big heap of salt, but I don't think that any of the Republican candidates will benefit by backing this openly - they are, after all, auditioning for the job of the head of state, whereas these folks are in essence declaring illegitimate the very institution that they've been spending time and money trying to get elected to head. And speaking out against the militia will garner backlash among the lunatic Right contingent that most have them have, to varying degrees, been courting.

At the very least, it would make more sense to see what Obama does, and then criticize the hell out of that and get brownie points with the Right, or (riskier) praise him and look big and "statesmanlike." It's one thing to snarl about brown people, its another to advocate open defiance of the very "forces of law and order" that they've been defending from Left-wing activists' "attacks."
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:07 PM on January 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Not a peep from the GOP?

John Weaver is a strategist for the Kasich campaign: I know a good federal compound for Bundy and his gang: a U.S. penitentiary.

That's all the Washington Post could find.
posted by peeedro at 11:40 PM on January 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

No, all I'd expect is a bullshit (or canned) response, but I think the total radio silence -- even from Trump -- means none of them have any clue how to respond without either pissing off their base or looking like they are sympathizing with the occupiers (not a good look if you want to be president.) I'm not eager to hear whatever bullshit they come up with, I just hope they are all really squirming.

What I do find surprising is that it doesn't appear that any of them have even been asked to respond. Mediaite doesn't have anything on the subject.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:48 PM on January 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't think that any of the Republican candidates will benefit by backing this openly - they are, after all, auditioning for the job of the head of state, whereas these folks are in essence declaring illegitimate the very institution that they've been spending time and money trying to get elected to head.

You may be right about whether or not they'll back the Bundy Bunch, but the larger point about esteem for federal-level governance remains to be seen. Ted Cruz, for example, is running on a platform to eliminate five federal agencies-- you know, obscure ones like HUD and the IRS.
posted by threeants at 12:01 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not a peep from the GOP?

Without having to take sides publicly, they can say they are not going to interfere with "a delicate ongoing situation" or something like that. Candidates don't want to lose the all-important wacko right wing of the American electorate, but they cannot plausibly be running for head of the federal government and simultaneously side with armed nutcases commandeering federal property and rebelling against the federal government. They are waiting until the current administration acts so they can see how to safely spin the outcome for their campaigns.
posted by pracowity at 12:06 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

The real terrorism will commence with the owl and chipmunk beheadings.
posted by Chitownfats at 1:18 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I said I was done but idiopath correctly called me on a few things.

The arsonists were convicted of a crime that had a mandatory minimum, their shorter sentence was an error. It is not double jeapordy - there was no second trial. The original sentence was in error. If you are opposed to mandatory minimums (as I am), there is reason to complain, but nothing illegal happened here.

Agreed that nothing illegal happened. I'm also opposed to mandatory minimums (in general), I just think the way the federal government handled things, what with getting the sentence wrong the first time around, is not ideal and is likely to cause resentment.

Also the usage of the term "these guys" here is extremely misleading. The occupiers are not from Oregon. The arsonists are willing to serve their longer sentence and have explicitly distanced themselves from the occupying private army.

Correct. Sorry - the arsonists do appear to be peacefully going along with their sentence and the "occupiers" seem to be hijacking the situation. I find the behavior of the occupiers so stupid that I'm being a bit blunt and hand-wavy and not disambiguating where I should. I was hoping it would be clear which group I was referring to but that was kinda vague on my part.
posted by iffthen at 4:44 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Where is the Mormon Church
On this? It is their co-religionists who are perpetrating this, even going so far as to calling out the Book of Mormon in their justifications. While the church has historically had a conflicted relationship with the government, it surprises me that they seem willing to tacitly support Bundy & his family in this action...
posted by Chrischris at 4:58 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Mormon Church can much more plausibly dismiss these guys' appeals to the Book of Moron than the GOP can disavow their association with the same anti-federal extremism. Absence of specific comment is not "tacit support" in all cases, that's the same exact FOX News reasoning as, "why won't all Muslims denounce Islamic terrorism every time they speak?" The GOP candidates are directly appealing to the same extremist base in a way that the Mormon Church just is not. I would read much more into silence from leading Republicans than from Mormon leaders.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:55 AM on January 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Not a peep from the GOP?

They're all waiting for the first of them to say something (lookin' at you, Donald Trump) so they can either disclaim or amplify it. Guarantee once the first person folds the rest will have statements out with the speed of an automated microsecond stock trading system.
posted by ftm at 6:58 AM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

they can say they are not going to interfere with "a delicate ongoing situation" or something like that

This is what I expected to see already, at least from Trump.

They're all waiting for the first of them to say something (lookin' at you, Donald Trump

Exactly, and when has Trump ever hesitated to talk. That's why I hope they are concerned that this time they backed themselves into a tangible no-win situation. Kasich says they belong in jail and no one challenges that or even comment on it? Trump just quintipled down on the Muslim ban, using it as the basis for his first ad. It's a weird silence is all. (Hit post instead of preview.)
posted by Room 641-A at 7:21 AM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not that it's literally impossible to contact people on a holiday weekend, but the fact that it's a holiday weekend probably has a lot to do with the lack of a real news cycle on this. I'd expect both reporting and campaigning apparatus to kick into motion today.
posted by cortex at 7:25 AM on January 4, 2016

But I want to see the GOP squirm noooooow.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:29 AM on January 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm actually surprised they didn't bring a year's worth of freeze dried food and MREs.

They did not. Here's a picture of their storeroom.
posted by scalefree at 7:30 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

What's in that big dog food looking bag? Is that a Costco size bag of goldfish crackers?
posted by discopolo at 7:35 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you're wondering why a Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) building was taken over as a result of a conviction for arson on BLM land, there is a very long backstory. The Hammonds' five-year sentences are the ostensible reasons for the armed takeover, but the choice of target seems to stem from a long-held grudge.

According to a High Country News article from 1994, Dwight Hammond wanted to run his cattle across the refuge, but was allowed by permit to do so only at specific times. FWS revoked his permit, and in retaliation he parked a Caterpillar earthmover on the refuge boundary line when workers were attempting to build a fence. He allegedly dropped the bucket on the front-end loader at one point, and nearly hit a person. On previous occasions, he allegedly threatened to kill FWS employees. (Additional source.)

He was arrested for the 1994 incident but charges were reduced from felonies to misdemeanors after protests.

The Hammonds apparently hold a long-standing grudge with FWS. And although they publicly protest that they don't want anything to do with the Bundy action, they seem happy to open up to the Bundy family:

“In public, they haven’t asked for our help,” [Cliven] Bundy told OPB. “In private, we’re still needed. I talked to Dwight Hammond…for probably close to an hour. His conclusion is basically, ‘I do not want to be shot in the head.’ He had fear that if he actually rejected what was going on, and stood up for the abuse in what was going on, there would be somebody who would actually kill him. Fear, is what their problem is.”

It's worth noting that when the prosecution appealed the Hammonds' shorter sentences, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals cited the following case law supporting harsh sentences:

Rummel v. Estelle (1980) — Upheld a life sentence under Texas’s recidivist statute for obtaining $120.75 by false pretenses. 5-4 decision with a majority opinion written by Rehnquist, who suggested that a rare and successful challenge to harsh sentencing laws might be for a hypothetical life sentence for "overtime parking." Kind of weird to me because although three of the four dissenting justices were liberals, so too was a bunch of the majority, and circa-1980 SCOTUS seems like some kind of magical liberal dream court that somehow still dropped this terrible opinion.

Hutto v. Davis (1982) — Upheld a forty-year sentence for possession of nine ounces of marijuana (worth about $200) with the intent to distribute. 6-3 unsigned decision based on Rummel v. Estelle.

Ewing v. California (2003) — Upheld a sentence of twenty-five years to life under California’s three-strikes law for the theft of three golf clubs. A 5-4 decision whose dissenting justices were all on the court's liberal wing.

Lockyer v. Andrade (2003) — Upheld a sentence of fifty years to life under California’s three-strikes law for stealing nine videotapes. Andrade's case was reviewed under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, the same law used to sentence the Hammonds. 5-4 decision with the same split as Ewing.

Conservative activists have had 35 years to take a principled stand against this kind of thing. Five years seems harsh for the Hammonds, but the reaction seems more like grudge than it does a principled objection. It's not fair to ignore three-and-a-half decades of draconian sentencing laws, and then stage an armed occupation because two arsonists got five years for a grass fire.
posted by compartment at 7:35 AM on January 4, 2016 [24 favorites]

Death throes of people who fear to tread into the 21st Century.
posted by Atreides at 7:40 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

What's in that big dog food looking bag? Is that a Costco size bag of goldfish crackers?

Big bag of some Bob's Red Mill product. Oats or flour or cornmeal or some such.
posted by cortex at 7:40 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Death throes of people who fear to tread into the 21st Century.

Or the mid-19th, for that matter.
posted by Etrigan at 7:42 AM on January 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

it is surprising that somebody in the GOP race hasn't said, "this isn't good, but Obama has mismanaged federal agencies in the following ways" I mean I assume that will get hurled out at one point. It's not a prima facie crazy thing to say.
posted by angrycat at 7:42 AM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trending twitter hashtags: #YallQaeda, #YokelHaram, #YeeHawd

Also #VanillaISIS and #al-Shabubba
posted by discopolo at 7:44 AM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Lies, Damned Lies, and Accurate Statements We Don't Like

So ... it's inflammatory to say that Payne was claiming his allies had targeted "federal agents" with deadly force, because the only people they'd targeted were agents of the Bureau of Land Management (a federal agency)? It's bad to target, say, FBI agents, but if the people you're threatening to kill are merely from the BLM, that's cool?

[...]

For folks who don't like the alleged policing of speech associated with "political correctness," right-wingers are awfully good at spotting nonexistent verbal "microaggressions" against conservatism. When do we get to call their attitude "conservative correctness"?

posted by tonycpsu at 7:45 AM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Five years seems harsh for the Hammonds

Not if you've lived in a brush desert during fire season.
posted by PMdixon at 7:46 AM on January 4, 2016 [27 favorites]

Republicans were burned last time by their full-throated support of Cliven Bundy after he started talking about how blacks should be put back in bondage. They're more gunshy this time (plus it was a holiday weekend).
posted by dirigibleman at 7:52 AM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Occupy Wounded Knee: A 71-Day Siege and a Forgotten Civil Rights Movement
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:58 AM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

If this was a sitcom, we could just have an actor pretend to be sympathetic and on their side and bring them a pot of chilli with ex lax in it. They'd be crying and calling for maw pretty quickly.

But that would be wrong.

As would having a clever rabbit dress up in women's clothing and act flirtatiously, only to lead them off a cliff.

(I have no helpful ideas.)
posted by discopolo at 8:06 AM on January 4, 2016 [18 favorites]

Raw Story: Republican presidential candidates silent on armed militia takeover of federal building in Oregon
posted by Room 641-A at 8:14 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

The timing of this, on the heels of the announcement that Obama plans to take executive action on gun control, is just so interesting.

Because the 2nd Amendment is about citizens being able to "resist internal oppression," this lines up more neatly with the NRA's desire to prove guns are needed by everyone (even if the whole reason for this "takeover" is a farce, IMO.)
posted by jeanmari at 8:14 AM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just think the way the federal government handled things, what with getting the sentence wrong the first time around, is not ideal and is likely to cause resentment.

The government didn't get things wrong. The government prosecutors attempted to apply the mandatory sentence all along. It was the Hammond's defense lawyers who made the argument in court that their clients were exempt from that particular federal law and provided the grounds for an appeal on the law. The appeal went to the District Court of Appeal which found in favor of the prosecution and then the Hammonds further appealed to the Supreme Court which refused to reconsider, which is why it took three years to settle. The government wasn't wrong. The Hammonds fought the sentence every inch of the way and finally lost.
posted by JackFlash at 8:23 AM on January 4, 2016 [13 favorites]

Aww, the poor little guys didn't bring enough snacks. They're requesting snacks be sent to them-- through the Federal mail, obviously. Insurrectionists ain't got time to establish their own working mailing system! They're too tuckered out from patriotin'!

This is kind of like the episode of an 80s sitcom where little kids run away with a box of cookies and half a sandwich as their supplies and they eventually find them living in the tree fort out back.
posted by bluecore at 8:32 AM on January 4, 2016 [39 favorites]

When do we get to call their attitude "conservative correctness"?

They're demanding a Safe Space!
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on January 4, 2016 [16 favorites]

Wait, one "militia" guy is telling reporters his name is Fluffy Unicorn

Is that for real?
posted by discopolo at 8:39 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can we bring back outlawry for idiots who have deluded themselves into thinking they're 100% self sufficient bootstrappers who don't need no government? Just cut them off and show them firsthand the logical conclusion of their philosophy until they ask pretty please if they can come back in?

I mean I know the world is better off without outlawry judgements as it was a terrible idea open to corruption and it's anathema to due process but... it would be so apropos for this shit.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:47 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

cortex: "Big bag of some Bob's Red Mill product. Oats or flour or cornmeal or some such."

Seriously? These yahoos are buying their insurrection supplies from a worker-owned cooperative? This just keeps getting better.
posted by stet at 8:49 AM on January 4, 2016 [30 favorites]

Establish a go fund me for a new Wildlife Refuge visitor center. Get a demolition permit for the old building, by the books. Then get after that demo by any convenient means. Oh, and it's time for old man Bundy to pay up.
posted by Oyéah at 9:07 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hipstorian @ottomanscribe

I love it when people try and counter narratives of Muslim terrorism by naming white groups after them. Wait no I don't.

Texas Taliban, Y'all Qaeda, Vanilla ISIS etc. etc. As though there are no ready examples of American terrorism to make reference to.

If your only way to refer to terrorism is through a Muslim lens, you aren't challenging anything with these names.

KKK was a violent nonstate, separatist supremacist group that used terror. But when it comes to Oregon all u think is Muslims? #YallQaeda

posted by andoatnp at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2016 [34 favorites]

andoatnp:

"But when it comes to Oregon all u think is Muslims?"

I think part of this is meant to be a jab at people who are assumed to be Islamophobes. Still, it is a good point.
posted by charred husk at 9:29 AM on January 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

"But when it comes to Oregon all u think is Muslims?"

This is a simple question to answer. The problem is that calling the American groups you mention "terrorists" remains a contentious point for some people, but groups such as ISIS, Boko Haram, and Al Qaeda are unambiguous.

This, of course, is representative of the exact problem that's been discussed extensively both on and off the blue, of the double standard where white folks get off easier on the same crimes, both in our media and in our cultural discussion.

Calling them equivalent to the KKK has some other cultural fodder, because of the KKK's extreme focus on race (though Cliven Bundy's involvement muddies the racial waters, too, I suppose). Personally, I find them fairly equivalent to the Whiskey Rebellion.
posted by Archelaus at 10:10 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

>Seriously? These yahoos are buying their insurrection supplies from a worker-owned cooperative?

It makes the whole insurrection experience more authentic..
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Do they have beards?
posted by Artw at 10:17 AM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Do they have beards?

I think they have cowboy hats.
posted by discopolo at 10:43 AM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ranchers who were kicked out of the area in 1908 when Teddy Roosevelt created the refuge. 5 generations ago.

yeah I love how their main beef is how they were here first or whatever and got their land taken away and yet somehow I doubt they'd be too happy if we followed that same fucking principle and just gave it back to the local native american tribes
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 10:49 AM on January 4, 2016 [19 favorites]

Republican candidates start to react:

Marco Rubio: "you’ve got to follow the law. You can’t be lawless. We live in a republic. There are ways to change the laws of this country and the policies. If we get frustrated with it, that’s why we have elections. That’s why we have people we can hold accountable.”

Ted Cruz: "Every one of us has a constitutional right to protest, to speak our minds. But we don't have a constitutional right to use force and violence and to threaten force and violence on others. And so it is our hope that the protesters there will stand down peaceably, that there will not be a violent confrontation."

Ben Carson: "Are these wildlife refugees from Syria? Because I think we should take a time out on admitting any more of them until we can verify whether they are Christian or not."

(OK, I made the last one up.)
posted by msalt at 10:54 AM on January 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Other interesting responses:

Stewart Rhodes (founder of Oath Keepers): “The Oath Keepers will not be involved in an armed stand off that’s being manufactured by potheads who want a fight because this is going to be a bad fight, not a righteous moral high ground fight."

Susan Hammond (wife, and mother, respectively of the two convicted ranchers):
"I don’t really know the purpose of the guys who are out there. I kind of understand where they come from, as far as their priorities in life. ... I don’t even know what ‘occupying the refuge’ means. I can’t judge what’s going on out there because I don’t know what it is. I hope they’ve got some warm clothes.”
posted by msalt at 11:01 AM on January 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

I made it like 5/6 through the thread before commenting only to continue reading and find out like 3 people had made that point already but I digress
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 11:03 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Five years seems harsh for the Hammonds

Not if you've lived in a brush desert during fire season.

Yeah. My brother and his family lost everything--photos, furniture, everything in the house--to an out-of-control fire. My sister-in-law barely made it out alive with nothing but the clothes on her back. And these yahoos set one to cover up another crime?

Five years is fine by me.
posted by emjaybee at 11:39 AM on January 4, 2016 [16 favorites]

There were also rumors -- which I can't verify or disprove -- about people setting fires to create firefighting jobs and bringing in federal dollars in the efforts.

Which just goes to underscore the weird dependence of these anti-government types on federal money. It's like a trust-fund kid complaining that their parents control them.
posted by msalt at 11:52 AM on January 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's like a trust-fund kid complaining that their parents control them.

If you read Ask Mefi, this is not all that uncommon.
posted by miyabo at 11:58 AM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Rand Paul chimes in: "I’m sympathetic to the idea that the large collection of federal lands ought to be turned back to the states and the people, but I think the best way to bring about change is through politics. That’s why I entered the electoral arena. I don’t support any violence or suggestion of violence toward changing policy.”
posted by msalt at 12:41 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Bundy crew is being manipulated by powerful interests who want to privatize public lands. This is not new. In the 1970s: it was called the Sagebrush Rebellion. In the 1990s: the Wise Use Movement. These are efforts by mining, timber, grazing, oil and gas interests to privatize your public lands.

The Bundy Militia Raid on Burns: What the Media Left Out
posted by graymouser at 12:58 PM on January 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

fraula: They say it's under FBI jurisdiction, and the FBI is keeping moot. They also mention that one of the guys posted what seemed like a farewell video just before going to Oregon for this, ugh.

It's actually a smart move for the FBI to deal with this very deliberately. They don't want another Waco, followed by another Oklahoma City Bombing (which was inspired by Waco.)

The only problematic aspect to it is the object lesson that a reputation for terrorist vengeance pays dividends over the long term.
posted by Coventry at 12:58 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Leah Libresco at 538: “The Armed Oregon Ranchers Who Want Free Land Are Already Getting A 93 Percent Discount”
posted by Going To Maine at 1:04 PM on January 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Just wanted to share Josh Marshall's brilliant description: white privilege performance art.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:32 PM on January 4, 2016 [34 favorites]

I'm sorry but: Oregon Militants Say They're Getting Worse Treatment Than Black Lives Matter Movement

amazing
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 1:57 PM on January 4, 2016 [12 favorites]

It wouldn't be a real armed insurrection without a persecution complex.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:11 PM on January 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Henry Krinkle at Current Events Inquiry: #OregonUnderAttack and the occasional authoritarianism of “privilege” discourse

The recent occupation by an armed militia of a federal building in Oregon has created a predictable stir of indignation on Twitter directed mostly against the media for purportedly either not covering it enough or not immediately labeling the perpetrators “terrorists” as they do for non-white and/or left-wing militants. We’ve seen and heard all this stuff before, and much of the underlying sentiment is understandable. It can be frustrating to see the federal government officially charge animal rights activists with “terrorism” for freeing minks and watch conservative outlets portray desperate refugees as potential terrorists while right-wing militants and their sympathizers appear to receive preferential treatment. However, there comes a point when this type of “privilege checking” seems to be more focused on revoking certain privileges rather than expanding them to cover marginalized groups.

posted by Rustic Etruscan at 2:13 PM on January 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

Rustic Etruscan, that link is really excellent.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:21 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oregon Militants Say They're Getting Worse Treatment Than Black Lives Matter Movement

This would make a pretty good Christopher Guest movie. Like Waiting for Guffman.
posted by discopolo at 2:24 PM on January 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

Director: Christopher Guest
Producer: Spike Lee
Starring: Zach Galifianakis as an entitled clueless failed ranch owner, Chris Tucker as a misguided libertarian who tries to join the cause.

This movie needs to happen.
posted by idiopath at 2:34 PM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Margaret Corvid, over at Jacobin, weighs in:

How we respond to those calling for blood in Oregon makes manifest the crucial dividing line between liberals and socialists.

A socialist approaches the state with critical caution. She might call for the incarceration of a rapist, but she knows only a people’s challenge to misogyny and capitalism can end rape culture. She demands that police be sacked and jailed for their racist murders, and she fights to reform the police to spare lives, but she also fights against the gentrification of communities and the criminalization of the marginalized that the police routinely enforce.

Though we hate and fear the worldview the Oregon gunmen profess, subjecting them to the same brutality the state metes out against black people would simply empower the militia movement. Ammon might call this occupation peaceful, but there are people hunkered in that refuge who are ready to die for their beliefs. Giving them their martyrs would only strengthen their cause.
Link

posted by wuwei at 2:35 PM on January 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

Elon James White (who created #OregonUnderAttack) saw the Huffington Post article.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:49 PM on January 4, 2016

Vanilla ISIS needs snacks, people.
posted by Talez at 2:55 PM on January 4, 2016

Leah Libresco at 538: “The Armed Oregon Ranchers Who Want Free Land Are Already Getting A 93 Percent Discount”

The defining characteristic of Libertarians everywhere: massive government subsidy. These people are parasites.
posted by Artw at 2:56 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

This would make a pretty good Christopher Guest movie. Like Waiting for Guffman.

Or episode of Reno 911. Pleasepleaseplease send in Tom Lennon in short-shorts.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:00 PM on January 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

The media can't come out and call the right-wing terrorists actual terrorists, but at least one outlet is daring to ask the Question. It's progress of some kind, I guess.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:19 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile, the two ranchers convicted of arson quietly surrendered to prison in San Pedro, California.
posted by msalt at 3:20 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Pleasepleaseplease send in Tom Lennon in short-shorts.

fuckin terry...get yer ass outta that pickup.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:21 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Margaret Corvid, over at Jacobin, weighs in

This is some weird, no-true-socialist spin. Not saying that people should be calling for blood, but that seems like a nonsense line.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:25 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

MALHEUR NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE

=

MAUL HER DIREFUL WIFE LEG
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:27 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Heh.

What are the protesters’ demands?

$5 million in cash and safe passage to 1874
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on January 4, 2016 [25 favorites]

I guess these folks want to cast this as a David versus Goliath thing, inspiring resistance and showcasing the heavy-handedness of the feds.

So I'm pretty impressed with the Obama and Lynch for not taking the bait. As it stands, the FBI has only been "monitoring" the situation. There have been no prominent speeches, no threats of drastic action. As of right now, the FBI's website doesn't even mention the situation.

The worst thing for these guys would be if they get a few news cycles, then the public loses interest. As much as I *emotionally* want these entitled fools to bear the full weight of the law, I think it's better if just a few of them get misdemeanor trespassing charges or something, and the issue just fizzles out and dies, relegated to obscure right-wing echo chambers.

As it stands, they've already lost on their signature issue: The Hammonds have turned themselves in, without endorsing this action. Maybe the feds will get their land, maybe not. Maybe the militia will stay for a day, maybe for a year. Maybe the leaders will be locked up, maybe not. But the BLM is going nowhere. The boundaries of the Refuge may not grow, but they won't shrink, even if a Republican wins in 2016. Barring an abrupt and bizarre shift in demographic trends, the voting population as a whole will continue to become less sympathetic to folks like these. Not even the crazies seeking the GOP nomination have expressed support.

These guys are losing, and hard. I'm more inclined to feel victorious than angry about double standards.
posted by andrewpcone at 4:01 PM on January 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

re: charges:

I will be very unsatisfied with any level of charges that does not result in these guys losing their gun privileges, forever.
posted by Archelaus at 4:04 PM on January 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

LOL at the idea that is even possible in U.S. law.
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on January 4, 2016 [13 favorites]

Doesn't being convicted of a felony cause you to lose any right to own a gun? Or am I imagining that?
posted by hippybear at 4:12 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Not even the crazies seeking the GOP nomination have expressed support.

Let's not start patting them on the back just yet. Both Cruz and Paul were A-OK with these guys pointing guns at government employees and using human shields when the press attention was minimal and the potential electorate was much whiter, older, and racist. It wasn't until the white supremacist subtext became text that they bothered to distance themselves.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:15 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Gawker: Nine months ago, Ted Cruz was railing in support of the Second Amendment as the “the ultimate check against governmental tyranny—for the protection of liberty.” Now, as a group of armed men occupies a federal building in Oregon, Cruz says no one should use force to protest the government. What gives, Ted?

Psst. Marco. That's your cue.

LOL at the idea that is even possible in U.S. law.

People convicted of violent felonies are not legally allowed to own guns (with a few exceptions, I think.)
posted by Room 641-A at 4:17 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Doesn't being convicted of a felony cause you to lose any right to own a gun? Or am I imagining that?

People convicted of violent felonies are not legally allowed to own guns (with a few exceptions, I think.)

There's no enforcement in gun-friendly states regarding other people buying guns and giving it to you as "gifts". Even if you're not allowed to have one, it's not like if you go to register one they're like "hey, the system says you're not allowed to have one so you'll have to give that there gun to the sheriff!"
posted by numaner at 4:23 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Personally, I find them fairly equivalent to the Whiskey Rebellion.

FWiW, unlike these jokers, the Whiskey Rebels actually *were* being screwed over by the federal government. Charged a per-gallon excise tax on the one product they could easily take to market, meanwhile the big distillers on the east coast could pay a one-off licensing-type fee for relative pittance to nope-out of it.
posted by absalom at 5:16 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Doesn't being convicted of a felony cause you to lose any right to own a gun? Or am I imagining that?

People convicted of violent felonies are not legally allowed to own guns (with a few exceptions, I think.)

There's no enforcement in gun-friendly states regarding other people buying guns and giving it to you as "gifts". Even if you're not allowed to have one, it's not like if you go to register one they're like "hey, the system says you're not allowed to have one so you'll have to give that there gun to the sheriff!"

"Own" and "buy" are not the correct words to use in this discussion. Federal law (18 U.S.C. § 922[g][1-9]) prohibits certain individuals from possessing firearms, ammunition, or explosives.

Possession of a firearm may be either actual or constructive. The latter has been defined as follows: “Constructive possession exists when a person knowingly has the power and intention at a given time of exercising dominion and control over the object or over the area in which the object is located...” (See U.S. v Booth, et.al. 111 F.3d 2 [1st Cir. September 1997]). You don't have to own a firearm to possess it.
posted by zakur at 5:54 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Your spouse (unless they have a similar restriction) is a useful loophole.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:03 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Doesn't being convicted of a felony cause you to lose any right to own a gun?

Well, maybe they could get an exception if they ask nicely enough.

A standard probation term bars defendants from possessing firearms, but Nuffer modified it to require only that the men remove guns and ammunition from their homes when probation officers visit.

posted by ctmf at 6:08 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

This gun thing is a derail, and I'm sorry I took the bait and was part of it. ArtW, trust me, we know our gun laws are fucked. No LOLs needed.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:10 PM on January 4, 2016

Earnest noted that the President is “aware of” and “concerned” about the situation, but not so much so that he will be talking about it with Attorney General Loretta Lynch. When pressed, Earnest continued to insist that the siege is mainly a local matter, and punted questions to the Department of the Interior:
posted by Room 641-A at 6:22 PM on January 4, 2016

(Stupid ipad.) This sounds to me like more of a sweet diss than a punt.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:23 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Death throes of people who fear to tread into the 21st Century.

They don't fear the 21st Century, quite the contrary, they want to shape it. To borrow from Games Workshop: "In the grim darkness of the near future there is only war." In the 21st Century everything is war, politics, culture, gender...Christmas. I think these people foresee an American future of Balkanization, violence, rebellion and chaos and the gradual breakdown of American society as we know it and they welcome and will do what they can to speed up the process. It's an apocalyptic vision of the inevitable decline and fall of the American Empire that drives a lot of these types. Than again I could be completely wrong.
posted by MikeMc at 6:31 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is some weird shit, all around. I'd also like to add my voice to the requests to stop slandering southern people by association with the y'allqaeda stuff... it's hack and it's unfair.
posted by Divine_Wino at 6:47 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

WaPo provides further background and new developments: In Oregon, frustration over federal land rights has been building for years
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

As it stands, they've already lost on their signature issue: The Hammonds have turned themselves in, without endorsing this action.

And patriots are not joining them in droves, and the government is not going to see how many of them there are and say Damn! Guess we better just let them have it!

They look like a bunch of clowns. They'd be better off at this point if everyone DID just move on and forget about it. They might be realizing that.
posted by ctmf at 7:13 PM on January 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Awwww... and just after they had chosen a name.
posted by hippybear at 7:19 PM on January 4, 2016

What, they're leaving already? OK.

Call Gitmo and tell them to cancel the reservations.
posted by mule98J at 7:22 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait, one "militia" guy is telling reporters his name is Fluffy Unicorn

The Bronyan Nation?
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:23 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

There is definitely a sort of weird overlap between young reactionaries and stuff like My Little Pony, Internet memes, Anime etc.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:42 PM on January 4, 2016

I thought he was giving a coded FU message, but I could be wrong. And there's always Urban Dictionary...
posted by hippybear at 7:46 PM on January 4, 2016

All it takes is one of these guys -- or someone who personally identifies with them -- to take offense at how ineffectual the "occupation" has been. The guy saying he was ready to lay his life on the line, with the goodbye video to his family. Met with patiently dismissive Federal L.E.O. treatment.

We mock. Justifiably so.

Does a True Believer reconsider, or double down?
posted by yesster at 7:55 PM on January 4, 2016

They don't fear the 21st Century, quite the contrary, they want to shape it. To borrow from Games Workshop: "In the grim darkness of the near future there is only war." In the 21st Century everything is war, politics, culture, gender...Christmas. I think these people foresee an American future of Balkanization, violence, rebellion and chaos and the gradual breakdown of American society as we know it and they welcome and will do what they can to speed up the process. It's an apocalyptic vision of the inevitable decline and fall of the American Empire that drives a lot of these types. Than again I could be completely wrong.

I see it as more of the violent death throes of the straight while male "Father Knows Best" style of patriarchy. Or to sound less pretentious, crybabies that don't want to share the direction that society heads are having a tantrum.
posted by Talez at 8:04 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wingnuts are coming out of the woodwork to cry "false flag!"
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:13 PM on January 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

At first I thought soft martial law is martial law that hasn’t taken a little blue pill.

ahaahahahahahahaha holy shit TD this is gold.
posted by Talez at 8:23 PM on January 4, 2016

On cue, to justify the retreat while still inflaming the crazies. With any luck, they can turn this into another Benghazi circus.
posted by ctmf at 8:26 PM on January 4, 2016

Ahh, "false flag," the "no true Scotsman" for the crowd that would legitimately like to sit around all day arguing what constitutes a "true American."
posted by Navelgazer at 8:26 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

These small communities, like Burns, have been struggling for a long time. Decades ago the federal government settled these communities under a set of rules. These rules basically gave away the land when it would be put to an economic use. So private ranches that were mostly too small, could get grazing rights and leases over federal land. Mining and timber rights could be obtained. Water rights were apportioned based on overly optimistic rainfal expectations.
Now the rules have changed. We stopped making these communities the absolute and only priority. Instead we came to realize that we needed to have a more balanced approach. More land for conservation and habitat. Bring back the wolves. Increase the flow of water in the rivers to let the fish live. We've tried to implement these changes in ways that will limit the impact, but for those who lived under the old system it's terrifying.
Have a little sympathy for these folks who are terrified that the Federal government is changing the deal they thought they had and there isn't anything they've been able to do about it.
posted by humanfont at 8:42 PM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

It can be frustrating to see the federal government officially charge animal rights activists with “terrorism” for freeing minks and watch conservative outlets portray desperate refugees as potential terrorists while right-wing militants and their sympathizers appear to receive preferential treatment. However, there comes a point when this type of “privilege checking” seems to be more focused on revoking certain privileges rather than expanding them to cover marginalized groups.

I think the point of focus is to force the privileged to accept expansion to other groups by making them endure what the marginalized have experienced.
posted by hippybear at 8:47 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Have a little sympathy for these folks who are terrified that the Federal government is changing the deal they thought they had and there isn't anything they've been able to do about it.

Did you miss the part where the people who actually live in the area seem to mostly think these yahoos are dumbfucks?
posted by PMdixon at 8:49 PM on January 4, 2016 [15 favorites]

Does a True Believer reconsider, or double down?

Seems pretty obvious which it is.

Have a little sympathy for these folks who are terrified that the Federal government is changing the deal they thought they had and there isn't anything they've been able to do about it.

When they stop waving guns around, flouting the rule of law, and generally being antisocial assholes, sure. You want change? Don't use guns. Use your words. Stage a peaceful sit-in (side note: dreadful irony that the sit-in methods of the godless liberal commie hippies work far far better than this waving guns about bullshit) protest, occupation, or takeover. These people are the most privileged class there is, and it's not like their only option is "to the barricades!"

They just want to live out macho weekend warrior fantasies while utterly neglecting, as mentioned above, that the logical extension of their arguments has all the land returned to indigenous people and themselves sent packing back to somewhere in Europe. It's pathetic, it's stupid, it's dangerous because it escalates, and people who resort to these methods when there are perfectly legal methods biased in their favour deserve nothing but mockery and scorn for their rank stupidity and sociopathy.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:51 PM on January 4, 2016 [20 favorites]

This evening I watched Wolf fucking Blitzer do a piece on these fools. He interviewed Darryl Issa, who blamed it all on Obama while scenes of the protest in Burns played, with no explanation this was not the bird sanctuary invasion, and giving the impression there were more than a dozen crackpots on the site. I was reminded why I don't watch Wolf fucking Blitzer.
posted by tommyD at 8:53 PM on January 4, 2016

#yallqueda deserves all the mockery. We should be in a mockery deficit by the end of the week. All the mockery and then some. Dumbasses.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:54 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

We mock. Justifiably so.

There's no greater burn than "...punted questions to the Department of the Interior"
posted by mikelieman at 9:58 PM on January 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ok, lets share equally.
(3.8 million sq. mi in US / 318 million people) * 640 acres/sq. mi. ~ 7.6 acres/person
Bundy farm: 160 acres.

Seems like you already have your fair share there, Bundy. How much are you giving up?
posted by ctmf at 10:02 PM on January 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Arguably, the less federal public land, the less nation. I should think a patriot would want more land, not less.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:15 PM on January 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wingnuts are coming out of the woodwork to cry "false flag!"

PLEASE SEND SNACKS
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:30 AM on January 5, 2016 [15 favorites]

yahoos are dumbfucks

I've been saying "dumbfuck yahoos" under my breath and giggling about it and I think if my mother knew (and if I wasn't 3 decades past 5 yrs old), she'd want to have a word with you.

Are there any pools going on about how long until a backed up toilet and/or lack of Mountain Dew drives them out of there? I'd also like to bet on someone accidentally dropping one of those weights on their fellow "militiaman's" toe and needing medical attention.

Or just accidentally shooting each other. That definitely will happen sooner or later.
posted by discopolo at 2:31 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

They just want to live out macho weekend warrior fantasies

Pre-9/11 these guys would have joined the Army Reserves but now they'd be shipped out to fight real battles. (No disrespect to people who join just to serve, but that was definitely a thing with certain people.)

PLEASE SEND SNACKS

I'm seeing a need here. My new Kickstarter is for Dr. Carson's Old (Like, Really Old)-Timey Portable Grain Storage Pyramids. Available in Single, Family, and Compound sizes.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:15 AM on January 5, 2016

I do have sympathy for people who are seeing their way of life threatened. But the level of entitlement is difficult to stomach. They want to be given land and given water rights, to be subsidized when crops are bad or prices fall, but not to pay taxes that might be used for welfare. This is a frustrating position to argue with. They are the flotsam of manifest destiny, left high on the beach, and now that the water has drawn back there is nothing to keep them afloat.
posted by Nothing at 5:15 AM on January 5, 2016 [26 favorites]

Have a little sympathy for these folks who are terrified that the Federal government is changing the deal they thought they had and there isn't anything they've been able to do about it.

No. They are citizens. They have the rights to petition their Congresspeople, run for office themselves, and also to simply obey the law as written, which other ranchers appear capable of doing, and earning an honest living, or else choosing another profession.

They could even simply protest peacefully. I would support them doing that even if I disagreed with their cause.

Instead, they're doing this, and causing economic pain for everyone else in the region.

I see no reason for sympathy.
posted by emjaybee at 7:05 AM on January 5, 2016 [19 favorites]

Also, I hate to be the guy with the rose-tinted spectacles, but apocalyptic white supremacist cults at least used to go to the trouble of building their own compounds.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:16 AM on January 5, 2016 [39 favorites]

Looks like the Feds may cut power and phone access.
posted by leslies at 7:24 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe I would have a little sympathy for these anti-government warriors if they acknowledged that due to the horrors of big government intervention, the deal they feel is so terrible is actually a 93% discount off the market rates for grazing.

(edit: whoops, missed the earlier link. point still stands)
posted by tocts at 7:29 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

We’d all do better to focus on forging red-blue alliances to address injustices of common concern rather than behaving as if it is either useful or morally righteous to denounce, demonize, and dehumanize the members of opposing ideological tribes.

Proponents of using civil disobedience to draw attention to government injustices ought not conflate those who engage in that tactic with ISIS, Al Qaeda, or the Taliban. Opponents of mandatory-minimum sentences should oppose them in this case, too, even though there are far more egregious cases to highlight. Opponents of over-incarceration should look askance at sending an elderly man to prison for five years––two years more than Mike Tyson served for rape––even if he did set a fire to hide an illegal deer hunt. And opponents of overly broad domestic-terrorism laws should object to how the ranchers were prosecuted under them for non-terroristic acts. Why is cooperating on those concerns so hard for so many who share them?

What the Left gets wrong about the Oregon standoff (Atlantic).
posted by Sonny Jim at 7:54 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

Good old Conor Friedersdorf, never one to let the facts get in the way of some good hectoring of "the Left." Doesn't The Atlantic have a fact checker on staff to tell him that this protest is primarily about land use policy, and has almost nothing to do with mandatory minimum sentences? Yeah, of course focusing on that aspect of the proponents' bios helps his thesis that the mean old lefties need to unilaterally disarm so they can find common ground with political opponents who he somehow never asks to do the same, but there's the story that's actually happening on the ground, and then there's the story that makes your paint-by-numbers "what is 'the Left' doing wrong now? column more convincing. It's a shame The Atlantic doesn't ask him to try harder to make those two stories resemble each other a little bit.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:09 AM on January 5, 2016 [24 favorites]

Jacobin, in a really interesting move, interviewed Ammon Bundy.

We hope it ends peacefully too. Is there anything else you would like to say to our readers? They are mostly an audience of socialists, who will disagree strongly with many of your beliefs.

I would like to add that we didn’t come here for violence and that we are not terrorists which I’ve seen us being called a lot. We are people taking a stand for our land rights.

posted by graymouser at 8:13 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

You're not wrong, but you're also not unarmed.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:36 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

I would like to add that we didn’t come here for violence and that we are not terrorists which I’ve seen us being called a lot.

The actual number of people in world history who would admit to being "terrorists" is so close to zero as to be effectively zero. They're always "freedom fighters" or "taking a stand" or some such bullshit.
posted by Etrigan at 8:37 AM on January 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

It's a shame The Atlantic doesn't ask him to try harder to make those two stories resemble each other a little bit.

C'mon, The Atlantic is where Megan McArdle began her non anonymous career. As the scorpion said to the frog, "You knew what I was when we started this."
posted by PMdixon at 8:38 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Such a shame this opportunity to build bridges with unhinged threatening maniacs is being let go by.
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on January 5, 2016 [14 favorites]

So it seems that possibly the power might soon be cut.

Here is the FBI's situation room.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 8:42 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

C'mon, The Atlantic is where Megan McArdle began her non anonymous career. As the scorpion said to the frog, "You knew what I was when we started this."

Yeah, but they also give folks like Coates and Fallows a big platform, so there's something worth saving there.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

Such a shame this opportunity to build bridges with unhinged threatening maniacs is being let go by.

I don't even understand how this can even be suggested. There really isn't any common ground. It appears that their idea of land rights and what people should be allowed to do on their land is selfish, destructive and all about 'me' 'me' 'me', $$$ and fuck the actual land itself.

There's no common good being fought for here except in their own delusions.
posted by Jalliah at 8:49 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

The actual number of people in world history who would admit to being "terrorists" is so close to zero as to be effectively zero. They're always "freedom fighters" or "taking a stand" or some such bullshit.

Nevermind that at least one of the guys repeatedly tries to incite and possibly commit anti-Muslim violence (for calling him a "terrorist," no less), which sounds like terrorism to me.

Good old Conor Friedersdorf, never one to let the facts get in the way of some good hectoring of "the Left."

I love how the network that hired Erick Erickson printing a mild op-ed from a former DHS employee and Twitter randos making crude jokes are the avatars of "the Left," but actual socialists and Mother Jones are apparently not.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:58 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

There's no common good being fought for here except in their own delusions.

If there are Freemen or Sovereign Citiizens in their group, which it sounds like some might be, I can guarantee you that delusion is the right word to use. I work in a state government and from time to time, I or my colleagues, have to deal with them. They operate in this weird fabricated world created by modern day snake oil salesmen, selling them a medicine made of the good ol' days when a man needed only a gun, a plow, and an American Indian's land to live a life of true freedom from the "government" and enemies of his country. They treat the law, real or not, almost like magical mumbo jumbo, believing if they file W document at X place over Y topic, then Z will occur. I have seen them claim to have filed the right recipe of documents to require the state to hand back taxes collected on every citizen, and have been personally labeled as someone who's been "dishonored" by association to a government official who was subpoeaned (I was sent to quash the subpoena).

They're frightening in their twlight lunacy. The same fellow who stated the above almost was detained in contempt of court because A) He argued with the judge for several minutes that he was "John of the Family Smith" and not "John Smith" (John Smith was the corporate legal identity that existed as a legal fiction to allow him to interact with the world, but which assumed all liability for his actions [not him]) and refused to take a seat when asked to by the judge.

They're the type of people I fear most about encountering in my job. They can be and often are unhinged and delusional.
posted by Atreides at 9:19 AM on January 5, 2016 [26 favorites]

Just wanted to share Josh Marshall's brilliant description: white privilege performance art.

Josh Marshall, graduate of the prestigious private Webbs Schools (2015-2016 school year tuition $55,985 for boarding students and $39,815 for day students), AB (Princeton), PhD (Brown)? Calling out a bunch of economically marginal, working-class white men, no doubt shittily educated at poor quality local schools, for their "privilege"? Right. Because that's not disingenuous elite sneering at all, is it?

White people calling out other white people for white privilege is always weirdly self-refuting, but when (as usually seems to be the case these days) the initiator of the call out is way more educationally and economically advantaged than the groups they're attacking, it just leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.
posted by Sonny Jim at 9:23 AM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

One can recognize racial privilege while being racially (and even economically) privileged.

The More You Know!
posted by tonycpsu at 9:27 AM on January 5, 2016 [29 favorites]

I hesitate to engage in this derail, and I don't want to discuss this in a protracted fashion, but I feel that whatever Josh Marshall (or anybody) says should be judged on its own merits.
posted by newdaddy at 9:29 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Because that's not disingenuous elite sneering at all, is it?
Here’s What Happened When Black People Tried Armed Occupation

Less violence is better.

One can recognize racial privilege while being racially (and even economically) privileged.

I've been thinking a lot lately about how different forms of power could confer different advantages and disadvantages, and how these differences might interact in surprising ways. Like how the experience of racial minorities can be changed based on their economic conditions - that wealth alone or race alone is not the sole mediator of human interactions.

I'm trying to come up with a good word for this entirely new and wholly unique idea which I alone am responsible for, like the pioneers of American history, working this fertile but untamed and heretofore uninhabited intellectual landscape.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:32 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

it just leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.

You mean your mouth. There is no universal mouth in which a bad taste can be left. Either own your reaction or leave it out of the discussion, don't try to simultaneously disclaim it and throw it in.
posted by PMdixon at 9:34 AM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

Reporters have been looking into the background of leader Ammon Bundy. It seems he received a $530,000 government loan from the Small Business Administration in order to start up his truck repair business in Phoenix in 2010.

But what good has the government ever done for Ammon this week?
posted by JackFlash at 9:36 AM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

So it seems that possibly the power might soon be cut.

I like this quote:

“After they shut off the power, they’ll kill the phone service,” the government official added. “Then they’ll block all the roads so that all those guys have a long, lonely winter to think about what they’ve done.”

really gives that tone of talking to spoiled children which is conveniently exactly what they're behaving like
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 9:36 AM on January 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

Ultra-exclusive private "day schools" that manage to get their average-intelligence kids into Princeton are also white privilege performance art. There's lots of white privilege performance art. Plenty to talk about in many, many threads.
posted by miyabo at 9:37 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

These bozos are not in any sense of the word disadvantaged. Every step of the way the system has been there for them, subsidizing them up to the hilt.
posted by Artw at 9:39 AM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

IIRC the Bundys are a family of millionaires, the current generation of which is living high off of daddy's ill-gotten gains and government subsidies. I don't think they qualify as "economically marginal" or "working-class" but given their propensity towards white supremacist rhetoric and partnerships, their education is certainly shitty.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:40 AM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

The certainly didn't go to any schools local to Oregon.
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'd also like to add my voice to the requests to stop slandering southern people by association with the y'allqaeda stuff...

I've seen this point made a couple times and I must say I don't get it. Southern people don't own the monopoly on the word y'all. It's perfectly common in the parlance of the western rancher. Have you people never seen a cowboy movie?
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:47 AM on January 5, 2016 [16 favorites]

The Washington Post proposes a new style guide for dealing with these incidents.
posted by schmod at 9:47 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

An interesting background connection:

Showdown in the Malheur Marshes: the Origins of Rancher Terrorism in Burns, Oregon

In the early 1990s, Hammond repeatedly transgressed federal environmental laws, trespassed on federal lands and hurled death threats at federal wildlife officials. Little action was taken against Hammond by a timid Clinton administration. Emboldened, Hammond and some of his fellow ranchers continued over the next two decades to flagrantly flout environmental laws and harass federal officials. These activities finally culminated in an act of poaching on Steens Mountain and two arson fires. Hammond and his son were convicted in federal court and sentenced to five years in prison. That conviction sparked the armed takeover of federal buildings now unfolding in Burns. Here is our report from 1995. — JSC

(JSC is Jeffrey St. Clair, editor of Counterpunch.)
posted by graymouser at 9:48 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

So it seems that possibly the power might soon be cut.

There is a vault in the gift shop filled with $600M in bearer bonds, but the circuits cannot be cut locally. The FBI is playing right into the terrorists' hands.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:51 AM on January 5, 2016 [27 favorites]

It included a cardboard box of apples and oranges, a few dozen pots of instant ramen, 24 cans of chicken noodle soup, a similar number of cans of sweetcorn, peas, beans and chili, and 20 boxes of macaroni and cheese.

There were also three sacks of potatoes, one bag of flour, another of rolled oats, boxes of raisins, a single bag of pretzels and one granola bar.


Nobody brought the beer. Jeez - I threw better parties as an underage freshman. They'll be done in less than a week.
posted by newdaddy at 9:52 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

There is a vault in the gift shop filled with $600M in bearer bonds, but the circuits cannot be cut locally.

...so the new die hard is going all cinema verite. sounds legit
posted by PMdixon at 9:55 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is it a heist of those cool 3D moulded maps? Because I like those.
posted by Artw at 9:58 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I guess you'ins haven't heard of Marshall Law. That's when you crank the woofers up to 10, and the bass man and drummer go nuts while the other guys take a much-needed bathroom break.

Or did you mean Apocalypse? Revolution? Make up your mind.
posted by mule98J at 10:10 AM on January 5, 2016

I really wish people wouldn't start mocking tools of every protest or occupation just because they don't like these guys. Like, yes, they called for supplies and 'snacks' to be sent by supporters. So did Occupy Wall Street. So did every anti war protest lasting more than a day that I've ever been to. So did Black Lives Matter. So did the anti-Walker pro-union protests.

Asking for supplies from supporters is a perfectly normal and totally boring thing to do, even if you have the wherewithal to get your own. You do it to save the movement money and also to cheer up your guys to see the solidarity. There's lots of legitimate reasons to hate on this protest, but "they asked for supplies" is not one of them.
posted by corb at 10:34 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

but "they asked for supplies" is not one of them.

I think it's more about the fact that people think these people are supposed to be "survivalists."
posted by drezdn at 10:38 AM on January 5, 2016 [19 favorites]

I've never before seen an argument of false equivalence based on snacks. One can find anything on the Internets.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:39 AM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

Oh please. They showed up like the usual posturing libertarian survivalist people, waved a bunch of guns around, and then went "waah we didn't bring enough food."

Like, it's so utterly emblematic of this mindset that they'd show up unprepared and expect a handout from someone else so they can keep terrorizing people. That's why they deserve mockery for each and every thing they do, including whining about snacks: it's the hypocrisy of bootstraps.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:46 AM on January 5, 2016 [35 favorites]

Asking for supplies from supporters is a perfectly normal and totally boring thing to do, even if you have the wherewithal to get your own.

This was a planned thing, though. They got in their vehicles and drove for a long damn way, presumably past several grocery stores. This wasn't a bunch of people sort of deciding to do a thing in their own personal locality, and oh crap it lasted longer than their lunch hour. They were asking for supplies pretty much the minute they got there.

Also, their "movement" is based on rugged self-reliance without the damn government getting in their way. BLM, Occupy, pro-union protestors -- they're all about collective action.
posted by Etrigan at 10:46 AM on January 5, 2016 [28 favorites]

I think it's more about the fact that people think these people are supposed to be "survivalists."

... and Mormons. If you go into a Mormon basement you aren't going to find just a couple of Power Bars and a family-size bag of Cheetos. You're going to find a neat row of 5-gallon white plastic buckets filled with food to maintain a family for more than a year.
posted by JackFlash at 10:47 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Making fun of racist sovereign citizen/survivalist nutjobs who complain about Uncle Sugar giving Those People handouts and engage in chest-puffery about bootstraps and living off the land, all the while getting rich off of the taxpayer and whining about snack food, is 100% appropriate.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:53 AM on January 5, 2016 [29 favorites]

You're going to find a neat row of 5-gallon white plastic buckets filled with food to maintain a family for more than a year.

Apocalypse Chow: We Tried Televangelist Jim Bakker's 'Survival Food'

♪♬ America, eatin' my lunch from a single bucket in the visitor center, where I'm livin'. ♩♫
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:55 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here’s What Happened When Black People Tried Armed Occupation

Or the Cornell Willard Straight Hall occupation which ended peacefully and in which no charges were filed.
posted by Jahaza at 10:56 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

#daddysworeanoath

Warning: John Darnielle
posted by Etrigan at 10:56 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Are we just assuming because they're ranchers that they are preppers? I haven't seen anything about it, and as I recall in the last Bundy standoff they fed them off beef from Papa Bundy's cattle. There's a pretty conspicuous lack of MREs, too. I wouldn't assume. I mean, they could just be lousy preppers, but they just kind of seem like your average run of the mill Starter Protester levels of prepared to me.
posted by corb at 11:01 AM on January 5, 2016

Call them names and return anger with anger. Dismiss their livelihood and that of their forbearers. Show zero understanding of their situation. No wonder the country's politics are so poisonous. Maybe we ought to consider some alternatives.
posted by humanfont at 11:03 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Simply don't let them leave. Send in prison food once a day. They promised go be there for years, so save the court costs and prison costs and just make them stay inside.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:06 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

None of the actual local people, who get 93% off the rates anyway, are the terrorists here. The locals have, indeed, been meeting these shitbirds with contempt and dismissal.

Before we consider alternatives, they need to consider alternatives to armed occupation.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:07 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

Show zero understanding of their situation.

A lot of people understand their situation and still find them ridiculous. Indeed, the more you understand, the more contradictory, selfish, short-sighted, and poisonous they seem. But, no, we're the ones who are poisoning this.
posted by maxsparber at 11:07 AM on January 5, 2016 [27 favorites]

No wonder the country's politics are so poisonous. Maybe we ought to consider some alternatives.

Civility! That's what will bring them around!
posted by Etrigan at 11:08 AM on January 5, 2016 [31 favorites]

Maybe we ought to consider some alternatives.

How about giving the terrorists an emergency airdrop of snacks made with Olestra. In addition to placating the anti-snack concern troll brigade, that would put an end to this nonsense in about 3-4 hours post-consumption.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:09 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

Okay, sorry, that was flip. But here's my problem with it -- the time to use civility was when they were asking (or demanding, whichever) to continue to use public lands for private profit. And we did that. For decades, the law and their rights and the situation and the reasons were patiently explained to the Bundys, and they just put their fingers in their ears and said "LALALALA I HAVE RIGHTS LALALALA!" And that didn't fucking work, and now they're on some insane crusade that's only tangentially related to their issue because they can't stand the idea of not being able to do whatever the fuck they want to do, and it's somebody else's fault that they can't, so they're bringing guns to a debate.

So no, we didn't poison this well.
posted by Etrigan at 11:14 AM on January 5, 2016 [27 favorites]

Call them names and return anger with anger. Dismiss their livelihood and that of their forbearers. Show zero understanding of their situation. No wonder the country's politics are so poisonous. Maybe we ought to consider some alternatives.

What is the understanding that should be shown, exactly? The challenge of telling people that you've been getting too sweat a deal is real -there’s a reason tax cuts are more popular than tax hikes- but what aren’t we understanding?
posted by Going To Maine at 11:19 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

We're not being understanding enough of wealthy, privileged white men throwing temper tantrums.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:20 AM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

Dismiss their livelihood and that of their forbearers. Show zero understanding of their situation.

What livelihood? What lack of understanding? We're not criticizing farmers just because they get government money and tax breaks. We are criticizing people who do so while making millions off of that, saying they earned the land (which was stolen from others), and who broke a contract they had been perfectly fine with abiding by for almost forty years.

The only people making a mockery of their livelihood and that of their forebearers while showing zero understanding of their situation is these dumbasses.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:24 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Conor Friedersdorf may be trolling, but he's right (as was the judge) that the mandatory minimum sentence imposed is completely insane. I don't know the extent to which it inspired the current protests—Friedersdorf thinks it did, people on the blue mostly disagree.

I think if we can't look at a prominently reported absurd mandatory minimum sentence and affirm "yes, this is cruel and draconian, even when it happens to right wing white males," then we are tacitly endorsing the same. I'm guessing the occupiers mostly supported this mandatory minimum law in the 90s when it seemed to be more directed at urban folks or people of color. But that was naive. Once the legal apparatus or cultural precedent gets established, it can be redirected at whatever group falls out of favor. And now it's directed at them.

Let's not be so naive as they were. If we oppose mandatory minimums for black people convicted of nonviolent drug charges, we should oppose them for white people convicted of setting fires to cover up illegal hunting, or which did very minor damage to some remote public land.

The criminal justice system is certainly unjust along racial lines, but if we refuse to acknowledge when it abuses white people, or get smug about how finally right wing whites are getting a taste of their own medicine, I think we're fucking up hard.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:31 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

I know their politics don't float everyone's boat, but Mises is hosting a really sharp takedown of the Bundy standoff from a free-market perspective - both acknowledging the problems with federal land management and exploitation of anti-terrorism law for the Hammonds, and also with the Bundy clan and the libertarian legitimacy (or lack thereof) of the protest.

"The details of the Hammond case are still coming out, but if the Hammonds have been enjoying a deal similar to that of the Bundys, it's unclear as to why the protestors — who are occupying a building they have obviously not homesteaded — should get a free pass with principled free-market advocates. In cases like these, we often find that the resistance to federal control is just a desire to trade in federal bureaucrats for more local bureaucrats who are on friendlier terms with the ranchers in question, and more open to their demands for continued subsidies."

posted by corb at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

I find myself capable of both being displeased with mandatory minimum sentencing, and still thinking that armed occupation of unrelated buildings in protest of mandatory minimum sentencing is blatantly insane.

Relatedly, though, I think the Hammonds probably are getting off light here, given that apparently they staged an arson to cover up other crimes, according to the legal record. Also, how much this actually has to DO with the Hammonds is pretty questionable, given that they didn't want these guys involved, and went back to jail in spite of their little showdown.
posted by Archelaus at 11:38 AM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

Archelaus, I'm not saying we should support the armed protestors here, or that the Hammonds shouldn't be punished, or that the current protestors are primarily motivated by the 5 years sentence.

I'm saying that when we spot an injustice happening to someone we *don't* agree with, with whom we *don't* sympathize, there is an opportunity to build credibility and bridge unnecessary cultural divides, and we shouldn't miss it.
posted by andrewpcone at 11:44 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

There's some question as to whether there's any actual injustice going on here though. Setting a fire to cover up another crime is pretty damn serious, triply so in dry areas.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:47 AM on January 5, 2016 [14 favorites]

we should oppose them [mandatory sentences] for white people convicted of setting fires to cover up illegal hunting, or which did very minor damage to some remote public land.

This wasn't their first offense. The second time they set fires in the middle of fire season, in contradiction to a burn ban, while firefighters were already in the field fighting natural lightning fires. Firefighters were camped nearby and woke up to discover a new, unexpected fire coming from a different direction.

Three wildfire fighters were killed in Washington state this last summer. It is a difficult and dangerous job. If there is any crime deserving mandatory sentences it is deliberate wildfire arson.
posted by JackFlash at 11:48 AM on January 5, 2016 [41 favorites]

Andrespcone - Fair enough. I just felt the need to get that out there. I've never been a fan of our for-profit-mandatory-minimums-prison -thing-, but I don't think it's a serious injustice in this particular case.

In fact, in this particular case, I think the injustice is that these guys were out of jail -at all-, because they're a clear and present danger to others. (Disclaimer: I'm the child and grandchild of firefighters who have done the wildlands firefighting thing).
posted by Archelaus at 11:50 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

If there is any crime deserving mandatory sentences it is deliberate wildfire arson.

REALLLY? REAAALLLY? Because I would think that, like, deliberate arson of a downtown apartment building that resulted in the deaths of all inhabitants would be more deserving of a mandatory minimum, or any of a thousand other crimes that deliberately harm individuals. But, heck, that's probably why mandatory minimums are a bad idea.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:56 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ha ha, #OregonSendMeASnack.
posted by newdaddy at 11:57 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let's not be so naive as they were. If we oppose mandatory minimums for black people convicted of nonviolent drug charges, we should oppose them for white people convicted of setting fires to cover up illegal hunting, or which did very minor damage to some remote public land.

Some people oppose all mandatory minimums in principle, favoring judicial discretion to decide on appropriate sentencing, but judicial discretion has been used throughout history to provide free passes to commit heinous crimes as long as the local judges sympathized with the perpetrator and excessive sentences to perpetrators not in favor with the locals, so a belief that mandatory minimums aren't inherently evil is a perfectly reasonable position.

This of course raises thorny issues about what categories / levels of crimes merit the use of mandatory minimums, but this "gotcha" you're trying to go for here isn't going to fly. We're not talking about white people who got caught with an ounce of weed, we're talking about white people who deliberately set fires that could have resulted in massive destruction.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:57 AM on January 5, 2016 [15 favorites]

Like, yes, they called for supplies and 'snacks' to be sent by supporters.

Well, Ammon Bundy said that when they took over the wildlife refuge that they planned to be there for YEARS. The fact that they started asking for material support after only a few days is deserving of mockery.
posted by yertledaturtle at 12:03 PM on January 5, 2016 [15 favorites]

Mod note: A few comments deleted. andrewpcone, not sure if you're trying to pick a fight in here but if you aren't, please drop the comparisons that are guaranteed fightstarters.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:07 PM on January 5, 2016

I think the "mandatory minimum" issue is a side line; Ammon Bundy said in his interview with Jacobin that the occupation is about "land rights," not about the sentencing. The Hammonds appear to be despicable people who committed arson to conceal evidence of poaching and got off easy, and have subsequently cooperated with prosecutors. The Bundy group hijacked their cause as part of their own crusade to steal public land, which is both related to what the Hammonds are doing and a much bigger and longer-term project.

FWIW, I oppose mandatory minimum sentences entirely, but focusing on them distracts from the real questions here.
posted by graymouser at 12:14 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

OK, let's try this again.

It's easy to take a nasty crime and say "if anything deserves a mandatory minimum, this does." When you start picturing the potential implications, it's pretty horrific. When the offender is someone you don't sympathize with, it's easy to think, "What an asshole, this guy should be punished hard."

This tends to disadvantage more marginalized groups. But it also starts a sort of arms race of brutality, which is more or less what happened in the 9th circuit's opinion.

tonycpsu: I'm not playing "gotcha" here. Maybe Friedersdorfer is, but I'm not. I'm saying we have an opportunity to be the better party here, and to try to bridge divisions that ultimately benefit no one but the private prison industry.
posted by andrewpcone at 12:16 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Because I would think that, like, deliberate arson of a downtown apartment building that resulted in the deaths of all inhabitants would be more deserving of a mandatory minimum.

And that would be murder, with a sentence of life in prison -- which is a lot longer than five years.
posted by JackFlash at 12:19 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

If you are dealing with people who think it's A-OK to set fires in a brush desert to cover up other crimes, there is no division to be bridged, sorry.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:19 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm not playing "gotcha" here. Maybe Friedersdorfer is, but I'm not. I'm saying we have an opportunity to be the better party here, and to try to bridge divisions that ultimately benefit no one but the private prison industry.

And I'm saying that "the better party" doesn't have to believe that if mandatory minimums are a bad idea for certain classes of crimes, they must be a bad idea for other classes of crimes.

We already have distinctions between misdemeanors vs. felonies, different degress of murder, and many other legal distinctions that have been put into place to guide and in many cases constrain what prosecutors and judges can do in terms of leniency for different offenses. Mandatory minimums are just another tool, one that's currently misused to punish drug offenders who've in most cases hurt nobody but themselves, which makes it nauseating to see them being compared to arsonists as if support for mandatory minimums must be all or nothing.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:20 PM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Mod note: Another few comments deleted. Having gone a few rounds on it, maybe let's set the mandatory minimums thing down at this point.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:39 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Bundy group hijacked their cause as part of their own crusade to steal public land, which is both related to what the Hammonds are doing and a much bigger and longer-term project

Yes, this. There is a decades-long history of ranchers (and miners and loggers and multinational corporations profiting from mining and logging) pushing for privatization of the public lands, because they don't like the way the federal agencies are required to manage them. They don't like it that federal land managers have to balance: recreational uses, endangered species habitat, water quality, ecosystem restoration, fire management, invasive species management, wild horses and burros, grazing leases, gas and oil permits, and extractive mining uses in granting permits.

The funny thing is, if these were private lands, the ranchers (and miners) would be paying a lot more per animal unit month (AUM) for their grazing, and in all likelihood the natural environment would be much poorer, because the private owners wouldn't be obligated to worry about most of those issues. (Except endangered species, which is one reason why the ESA is such a hot button issue.) And the private owners certainly wouldn't have the technical qualifications to analyze and manage those resources that the federal agencies provide.

BLM and Forest Service personnel have been assaulted, shot at, and threatened with violence all over the west, because it's their job to balance dozens of competing uses in a way that protects and preserves the property of the entire United States. The Sagebrush Rebels want purely local control of this property, even though purely local control often results in a wasteland, because local stakeholders are dependent on the extractive industries. They feel entitled to do whatever they want with land that doesn't belong to them, because they live nearby.

As it is, the BLM already gives too much deference to the mining/oil & gas industries, and there is pushback from ranchers in the SW over the issue of oil & gas development in areas where it conflicts with long-term grazing leases.
posted by suelac at 12:42 PM on January 5, 2016 [36 favorites]

Can someone please give a link about the bearer bonds in the gift shop?
posted by waitangi at 12:43 PM on January 5, 2016

Can someone please give a link about the bearer bonds in the gift shop?

Here you go.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:48 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

I love the public response of mockery. I made a comment way upthread about the militia guys being "terrifying". Which I now regret, because it gives them way too much power. The #YallQaeda, #VanillaISIS and #al-Shabubba hash tags, not to mention the Please Send Snacks flag, is the right level of seriousness to give these folks' agenda.

At least I hope so. They are still violent, and armed, and seditious. Timothy McVeigh and his pals murdered 168 people in an act of terrorism. I still think it's right to mock them, but I sure hope the FBI is doing it's job in keeping these idiots from being a real threat.
posted by Nelson at 12:51 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe we ought to consider some alternatives.

As it happens, we - if by "we" we mean the federal government - did consider an alternative. The last time, very specifically, a group of Aryan Nation/Oath Keeper/Gadsden flag types got together under the leadership of a member of the Bundy family, federal authorities first attempted to enforce the law and then, when it seemed possible that attempting to enforce the law was going to lead to a gun fight, withdrew and deescalated, allowing Bundy to continue to pasture on federal land.

So, that was the alternative that was considered and implemented. That appears to have emboldened that group and its leadership to the point of illegally occupying federal land, as well as opportunistically grazing cattle on it. It also, arguably, contributed to the deaths of Joseph Wilcox, and of the police officers Alyn Beck and Igor Soldo, when they were killed in Las Vegas by two of those Aryan Nation types who had gravitated to the Bundy ranch and been asked to leave.

So, that's the alternative that had so far been tried. This time around, it looks like the federal government is taking a slightly different tack, albeit one still aimed at avoiding armed confrontation.

If, however, by "consider some alternatives", you mean that we - not the federal government, but some people on the Internet - should be nicer to a group of people who are materially benefitting from amping up rhetoric that has already seen innocent people killed, and who are currently actively soliciting cash donations through a website that sells "FUCK ISLAM" bumper stickers, then... well. I mean, good luck with that, but I think I feel my response is calibrated pretty well.
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:59 PM on January 5, 2016 [29 favorites]

Setting a fire in no-burn season pretty much *is* the equivalent of torching an apartment building. If you don't manage to kill anyone it's because you were lucky.
posted by tavella at 12:59 PM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

Oregon's historically timber-dependent communities struggle to diversify with increasing desperation. What's ahead for these once-prosperous towns? It's a question far from answered.
Story by Ben Jacklet

An old article (from 2009) but I found it to be an interesting look at the economic history of the region. (I was looking into the claim that it was one of the most prosperous counties until the 1980's, which is true but the driver was a private company that had secured massive timber rights to federal lands in the 1920s but closed shop in 1980 and it was a massive shake up. Things then dwindled till the housing meltdown and by 2008 demand was all gone and the industry dead. So now it is ranches and tourists, there is more to it than that, but that is a rough overview.)
posted by phoque at 1:07 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

According to Ammon Bundy who has done extensive research both on western land issues and the Hammond Case, as late as the 1980’s, Harney County was one of the wealthiest counties in the state and now it is one of the poorest and it’s due to federal acquisition of western lands.

This was the pro Bundy article that sent me on the chase, but it is the references to Malheur Headquarters that made me laugh.
posted by phoque at 1:12 PM on January 5, 2016

and it’s due to federal acquisition of western lands

WHAT.

Those lands have been federal land since the US removed the tribes. They were never private land, there's no question of "federal acquisition".
posted by suelac at 1:15 PM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

I can't even begin to explain how charming it is that you are still shocked that right-wingers have a terrible grasp of history, facts, statistics, et cetera.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:31 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Nothing says "we fancy ourselves outdoorsmen" like a campfire made of pressure-treated wood signposts.
posted by compartment at 1:33 PM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

"At one time (Harney County, Oregon) was the wealthiest county in the state; today it is one of the poorest," he says.

The prosperity was also a time when workers were receiving union wages.
posted by phoque at 1:37 PM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think it's fair to say though, that as this century goes on, more people and groups are going to come to resent that their older ways of working and living are going to produce relatively less wealth. These guys are just kind of a leading indicator.
posted by newdaddy at 1:41 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

These guys are just kind of a leading indicator.

On the contrary, I think all of the various ways we subsidize rural living and working make them relative latecomers to the party.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:44 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

These guys are just kind of a leading indicator.

I dunno. Lots of very vocal people have been complaining about this for at least 40 years. Steel mill workers. Auto workers. Factory workers in general. These guys are johnny-come-latelies, frankly. Maybe the difference is that most of the factory workers were located between the coasts, and were largely union workers, so the right didn't shed a single tear for them?
posted by Thorzdad at 1:48 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

Those lands have been federal land since the US removed the tribes. They were never private land, there's no question of "federal acquisition".

Sort of... the "Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Act of 2000’’ (pdf) restricted grazing on many Federal lands in the county. Now, that's not in itself an acquisition of land, but we're not talking about unified blocks of land. Public and private land is intermixed. It's led to stories like this one: farmers who find it hard to use their land, which they do own, because it's surrounded by federal land which is now off limits. And some of them apparently feel they've gotten a raw deal because the BLM was supposed to install necessary fencing (as the ranchers understood the act when they agreed to support it), but the BLM is now interpreting it otherwise.

This is a complicated area of law, but this is arguably acquisition if it rises to a "constructive taking"... and ranchers might see it that way somewhat reasonably even if ultimately courts don't decide in their favor. (Also, we don't always require people to speak in absolutely legally precise ways.)
posted by Jahaza at 1:49 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Looks like they're starting to talk about an exit plan now.
posted by hippybear at 2:37 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

YEARS
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:43 PM on January 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

I assumed years was bullshit hyperbole. This is one reason waiting out occupations is often the best plan.
posted by corb at 2:51 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

From hippy bear's link above:

The local sheriff urged the Bundys and the others to get out of town soon "Militia Go Home" signs began being seen posted on telephone poles.

In a very teeny, tiny way I feel like maybe these guys will help break the spell that has been hanging over a few (even one?) of the people who have been riding this dumbfuck train for the last few years. Did anyone even remotely lucid and breathing oxygen stand up and defend these guys? I mean, even Alex Fucking Jones didn't defend them (even as he used them to attack Obama, of course.)
posted by Room 641-A at 2:53 PM on January 5, 2016

Here is some deep history of the situation, from Seattle treasure Knute Berger.

"Oregon standoff: White and exempt in the wide open West
....It’s hard not to imagine what would happen in Malheur if this were a group of armed Muslims or a Black Bloc of anarchists from Eugene. Or what about unarmed Black Lives Matter protesters or tribal activists?

One reason is that federal officials and employees in rural areas are themselves often locals, or certainly have to live with their remote neighbors. The other is that the causes being espoused — that the federal government is too powerful or is entirely illegitimate — underlies the main ideological thrust of one of the nation’s predominant parties, today’s Republicans, and that’s usually the party of choice in these rural counties.

Even if they might disagree with the Bundys’ tactics or extremism, the local sense of general grievance can be long and deeply held, and exacerbated by economic conditions. The occupiers are not necessarily seen as “others,” but as reflections of their angriest selves."
posted by Rumple at 2:55 PM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

They're not going to let them go home, are they? They're going to arrest them, right? I'm down for not going in there after them to avoid a gun fight, but surely we're not going to just let them go home.
posted by Weeping_angel at 2:57 PM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

I hope not, Angel, but Papa Bundy is still sitting at his ranch with his cattle grazing on government property as the fines surpass $1 million of which he has no intention of paying. Armed standoff be damned.
posted by avalonian at 3:02 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

y'know, since they're all gathering in Malheur, BLM should go to his ranch and start rounding up some cattle!

also: The Spice Must Flow
posted by numaner at 3:08 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thats a protected tweet Numaner, whats the joke?
posted by kittensofthenight at 3:34 PM on January 5, 2016

Of course they'll let them go. The last thing the Feds want now is a scene that plays into these idiots' worldview. They'll walk, none the worse for wear.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:34 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

It wasn't protected with numaner posted it. They put the account private after it was linked here, probably because it was getting attention from all over.

I don't remember the joke, but I do remember seeing the actual tweet link.
posted by hippybear at 3:51 PM on January 5, 2016

Sara Robinson: Inattention to Detail

What they don’t factor into this is that the perpetrators are watching for just this reaction. Almost always, they’re motivated by the idea that they’re simply acting on widely-shared community values. “Other people have been silenced by the political correctness police; I and I alone have the courage to say out loud what everyone else is really thinking. And in daring to do this, I’ll be hailed as a hero — as the one who finally stands up for the truth.” Wherever you see right-wing violence in action, it’s a pretty safe assumption that some version of this dramatic, heroic vision is playing in the actor’s head. You can bet this is what they’re telling each other right now in that little building in Malheur.
Letting them get away with their first actions provides strong confirmation for this story.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:53 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Amanda Preacher says that charges are imminent.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 3:57 PM on January 5, 2016

Wherever you see right-wing violence in action, it’s a pretty safe assumption that some version of this dramatic, heroic vision is playing in the actor’s head.

Prove to me that I shouldn’t also assume this when I see left-wing violence in action.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:07 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

>Amanda Preacher says that charges are imminent.

That twitter feed also shows that someone brought in grilled cheese sandwiches and fries for the armed gunman. There appear to be about 12 sandwiches there (What? No snuggly blankies??).

In the actual link to the news article the local Sheriff says “I think if one person gives them a Snickers bar, they’re going on national media and claiming that the community supports them,” which immediately made me love that guy.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:15 PM on January 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

Let them eat cake.

In prison.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 4:15 PM on January 5, 2016

someone brought in grilled cheese sandwiches and fries

I noticed that as well, but I didn't see where it's stated that those were brought in. Given how that bell-end Ammon Bundy was crowing about the provided soup the night before, I'm thinkin' that they made that there meal fer themselves. Or had ther women-folk fix it.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 4:28 PM on January 5, 2016

Amanda Peacher says that charges are imminent.

The article that Peacher links to doesn't say anything about the imminence of charges, only that the Harney County Sheriff has been told by the FBI that "the men will face charges."

According to a January 3rd post on Peacher's Twitter feed, LaVoy Finnicum planned to stay "until the Constitution is upheld."

Didn't take long for that steadfast attitude to waver, though: "When Oregon, the state of Oregon, is safe from the threat and intimidation of a central power — You know, I need to get home, I got cows that are scattered and lost, and I've been looking forward to that."

It's worth watching the end of the video clip. He's just rambling on and on, hitting each of his bonkers talking points, and then all of a sudden he does a hard 180 and the subtext is like, "Sleeping on a floor has left me incredibly tired."
posted by compartment at 4:32 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Oregon Trail: American Snacker
posted by a lungful of dragon at 4:32 PM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sounds like the grilled cheese was brought in. PBS NewsHour did an interview with Amanda Peacher:

You see a few of the protesters walking between buildings. There are some women in the kitchen making grilled cheese sandwiches for the protesters. But it’s very calm. It’s very quiet.... I have seen zero law enforcement vehicles and — that are marked at least. And I have heard nothing from law enforcement about their intentions to come near the area.

posted by ectabo at 4:38 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The article that Peacher links to doesn't say anything about the imminence of charges, only that the Harney County Sheriff has been told by the FBI that "the men will face charges."

Personally, I'd call that a distinction without a difference. I suppose that, were the edit window still open, I could change it, to satisfy whatever error it is that I've apparantly made. Alas, it isn't. Guess we'll both just have to live with this nightmare.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 4:44 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

All Things Considered ran a good story on the situation tonight.
posted by humanfont at 4:49 PM on January 5, 2016

The story behind the minimum sentencing laws is interesting:

"Oddly enough, terrorism against the federal government in Oregon was a significant reason why federal penalties for arson in the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 have ended up being enforced so often. In October of 1996, eco-terrorist group the Earth Liberation Front burned down a forest ranger station about 30 miles outside of Eugene, Oregon that did over $5 million in damage. " -- Weekly Standard article

There are some ironies here.
posted by sneebler at 5:11 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

the feds should just totally Blair Witch this shit. Shoo all the bystanders away so when the jerks peek outside they see nothing, nobody. Then the feds should leave weird little mounds in front of the jerks' door. Then start making some really weird noises at night.
posted by angrycat at 5:12 PM on January 5, 2016 [16 favorites]

Angrycat - I love the idea, but I'm not so sure I want to put the Fed in the position of taunting armed idiots.
posted by Archelaus at 5:14 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

LaVoy Finicum tries to explain what their plan is in the second video in the NBC News "I need to get home" article.

It makes this sound like a research project. They're examining the record of government acquisition of land, so that they can invalidate anything not "purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State" (from Article 1, section 8 of the constitution). Then they can return the land to whomever the government took/unconstitutionally purchased the land from.

But that raises more questions than it answers. Does this facility have paper records of how the federal government acquired this land? Is this information otherwise publicly available, such that they could have occupied a seat at the library (no guns necessary)? Or even at their own computer?

This matches what was noted in the LA Times article from a few days ago, as linked to and quoted by hippybear:

From the article, the statement of the demands from the occupiers by Ryan Bundy: "The best possible outcome is that the ranchers that have been kicked out of the area, then they will come back and reclaim their land, and the wildlife refuge will be shut down forever and the federal government will relinquish such control," he said.

Ranchers who were kicked out of the area in 1908 when Teddy Roosevelt created the refuge. 5 generations ago.

So they're going to have to do some genealogy work, too.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:32 PM on January 5, 2016

Ranchers who were kicked out of the area in 1908 when Teddy Roosevelt created the refuge. 5 generations ago.

Was anyone actually kicked off land they legally owned back in 1908? Or, was the land always Federal land and Teddy merely carved out this refuge from it?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:44 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Personally, I'd call that a distinction without a difference. I suppose that, were the edit window still open, I could change it, to satisfy whatever error it is that I've apparantly made. Alas, it isn't. Guess we'll both just have to live with this nightmare.

Apologies if I came off as overly critical. No disrespect was intended. The difference in my mind was just over the imminence of charges. I think it makes a difference whether they're charged tomorrow morning while still in the building or a week down the road after they've left the building. Not a huge deal, and again, I apologize.
posted by compartment at 6:01 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thorzdad: Was anyone actually kicked off land they legally owned back in 1908? Or, was the land always Federal land and Teddy merely carved out this refuge from it?

Possibly, but it looks like it was based on public action.

"In 1901 residents of Baker County sent a petition to their congressional representative requesting that the mountains around Baker City and Sumpter be withdrawn from the public domain in order to protect the area’s water supply. The following year residents of Malheur and Harney counties submitted petitions asking that the Strawberry Mountains and the headwaters of the Malheur, Silvies, and South Fork of the John Day rivers be withdrawn to protect water, timber, and grazing resources. The Secretary of the Interior responded in July 1902 by authorizing the temporary withdrawal of more than 3 million acres of land in the forested areas of northeastern Oregon."

I got this from Blue Mountains National Forests: Chronological Record of Selected Boundary Proclamations (pdf). It is quoting an article in the Oregonian newspaper dated March 18, 1906 entitled: “Forest reserve created at last; President sets aside Blue Mountains for timber purposes.”

The quote continues, noting that this action was controversial. Also relevant:

"More problematic than local opposition were the land speculators who claimed land in the proposed reserve with the intention of trading it for more valuable land elsewhere in the state. This practice was at the heart of a major land fraud scandal that resulted in the indictment of dozens of Oregonians, including most of Oregon’s congressional delegation."


(Relevant) Timeline (adapted from the same report).
July 28, 1902: Blue Mountains Forest Reserve was informally withdrawn from the public domain
March 15, 1906: Blue Mountains Forest Reserve was formally established by proclamation.
March 4, 1907: Act of Congress changes Forest Reserves to National Forests.
June 13, 1908: Blue Mountain National Forest lands were distributed amogst the new Whitman, Malheur, Umatilla, and Deschutes National Forests. Malheur National Forest was established by executive order #814.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:13 PM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

But how could you even acquire such information without occupying a building and demanding snacks? Are you a wizard?!?
posted by rtha at 6:18 PM on January 5, 2016 [27 favorites]

Next in old timey reading: "Report on the proposed Blue Mountains Forest Reserve" by H.D. Langille to the Department of the Interior from 1906. (pdf)

Skimming the 19 pages reveals that it includes some summary of agricultural use, logging, mining, and cattle.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:25 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Apologies if I came off as overly critical.

No worries.

Trying to reason with some of these "freedom fighters" today (I am down with a cold) has made me trigger-happy. I overstated my case.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 6:45 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

In a very teeny, tiny way I feel like maybe these guys will help break the spell that has been hanging over a few (even one?) of the people who have been riding this dumbfuck train for the last few years.

Come on, you know you can't win with this demographic. That will only radicalize them even more with anger that the poor sheep didn't appreciate all they were doing for them. Congratulations, now you have government haters plus contempt for the general public.
posted by ctmf at 7:01 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

If they were winning with that demographic, there would have been a mass migration to the remote SE corner of Oregon to join them with their stand against tyranny and government overreach.

Nobody made the drive beyond the initial 12-15. They stand alone. It's obvious. To us and to them.
posted by hippybear at 7:09 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

The refuge was established in 1908 but has been expanded significantly since then. BLM has reduced leasing of land for grazing on adjacent parcels since the 1970s. This may have contributed to a number of ranches ending up for sale and purchased by the Federal government to add to the refuge.
posted by humanfont at 7:09 PM on January 5, 2016

Which isn't exactly the Federal government seizing land, now is it?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:12 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's certainly nothing like when the Feds moved into the Hanford area and literally kicked people out in order to build their plutonium refining station in SE Washington. One documentary I saw suggested they were given less than a month to make their decision, and if they refused after 3 increasing offers for their land they were subjected to Eminent Domain and just put off their land.

That would be a more bold stand for the Bundys and their followers to take, but then, you can't graze cattle on that land, because reasons.
posted by hippybear at 7:16 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Next in old timey reading: "Report on the proposed Blue Mountains Forest Reserve" by H.D. Langille to the Department of the Interior from 1906. (pdf)

The book Forest Dreams, Forest Nightmares: The Paradox of Old Growth in the Inland West is a fantastic history of forestry and land management in the Blue Mountains. It's about the forested areas, not the wetland areas involved in this controversy, but the land management issues have similar histories.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:31 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Many ranches are a mix of privately held land and land that is leased from the BLM. Without the lease the ranch doesn't have enough pasture to support the herd. No herd, no money and now your forced to sell your land to the government. Perhaps you can understand how the rancher might simplify the story as the government took the ranch.
posted by humanfont at 8:28 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

holy shit lmao
posted by emptythought at 8:34 PM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

You mean the leases they pay 93% less than everyone else for?

I mean, to a point I respect your committment to your talking points, but back here in reality we have a bunch of terrorists who aren't related to this dispute at all, who indeed have been repudiated by those who are involved in this dispute, who pretended they'd be there for years and didn't even bring enough food for a few days.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:39 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Many ranches are a mix of privately held land and land that is leased from the BLM.

Leases can be on land managed by an agency other than BLM, though I think that they are the dominant agency for grazing arrangements. But yes, it is definitely the case that a ranching operation will require both private land (with water rights) and public leases to be viable. As with water, public land is supposed to be managed for public benefit, and it is not controversial to say that pretty much every state and federal water and land management agency has a record of extreme mismanagement of those resources.

I have seen it get emphasized in some of the articles about this situation, but I think it is sometimes hard for people in other parts of the country to really get how dominant public land management (especially federal land) is in the west. A huge part of the economy (as well as non-economic things like hunting and hiking) has been based for generations on continued access to public land. I'm not saying this to excuse either the original arson guys, or the jackasses who are occupying the building, but that living here land management issues are huge in a way that isn't the case almost anywhere else in the country.

Whenever the management rules change, whether for reasons of favoritism or environmentalism or anything else, it has huge impacts locally, but the people on whom those impacts are felt often have very little say in the management decisions and implementation. A lot of small communities in the west have a history of pretty much always getting fucked. Back in the day the resource wealth was extracted and sent east (leaving only scraps and low wages for dangerous jobs), and since then those resource industries have collapsed (logging) or are being restricted by land use and environmental changes that can turn narrow margins negative (ranching).

But these are complicated and important issues that are best solved with local consensus and creative thinking, not by these outside bozos showing up with nutjob political talking points. They are helping no one except for themselves, and once they go off to their next event the locals will be left holding the bag. The resources absolutely need to be better managed, and a key part of that needs to be not screwing the locals.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:54 PM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

This is why I could never be in a position of power. Were I Governor of that State I'd immediately cut water , power and cell service. I'd call up a company or two of National Guard infantry to pay a visit along with several attack helicopters rising over the treeline at dawn playing Ride of the Valkyries on loudspeakers just because I know those bozos have seen that movie a zillion times. Maybe some SWAT from Portland too. II would tow their cars to some place it would cost them a zillion dollars to get back. I'd violate so many civil rights that even Rahm Enanual would bow his head in embarrassment and go "Oh really, you've gone much too far".

And shortly thereafter I'd undoubtedly be be disgraced and somehow voted out of office but it would be a darn fine show, really it would, And I would leave office thinking the millions I had spent had been totally worth it to see them all crap their pants.

This is why I can never hold public office :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:08 PM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

My old boss has been working at an advocacy group for protection of public lands out west for a while now, and they put together a nice little roundup of politicians involved with these nutbags.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:43 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean I'm not a business dude, but if changes in the public subsidy in the form of land usage I depended on destroyed my business, I might look into another line of work
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:53 PM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

ctmf wrote:

Well, maybe they could get an exception if they ask nicely enough.

A standard probation term bars defendants from possessing firearms, but Nuffer modified it to require only that the men remove guns and ammunition from their homes when probation officers visit.

It's actually not all that unusual when the charge is for a minor nonviolent offense when a particular term would present an undue hardship given the defendant's particular circumstances. Yes, it's privilege in action, but it's not reserved for gun nuts. I've known people who have had the provision requiring they maintain gainful employment removed as well as travel restrictions, among others.
posted by wierdo at 9:56 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just to provide some context, the BLM administers about 180 million acres of land for U.S. citizens. 80% of that land, 140 million acres, goes to grazing leases. There are 16,000 leases. So consider that 140 million acres of the people's land is going to the benefit of fewer than 16,000 ranchers (keeping in mind many ranches have more than one lease). And they want more. That's what this fight is about.
posted by JackFlash at 10:06 PM on January 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

An OPB article on tension between ranchers and land management. And a reminder that without regulation it would be grazed to abandon.

Data Gap On Ecosystem Health Puts Ranchers, Feds At Odds
by Jes Burns and Tony Schick

In the decades after the Civil War, ranching boomed on public lands in the West.

Anyone who wanted to start a ranch needed little of their own property and few hired hands on the payroll — thanks in large part to their ability to let their animals graze on federal land.
---
Decades of unchecked grazing degraded the Western landscape. By 1934, federal law established the regulation of grazing on public lands. That ultimately led to the first grazing districts, then grazing allotments and an agency that later became the Bureau of Land Management.

As America’s environmental consciousness emerged in the 1960s and 70s, the federal government started reining in cattle ranching. Environmental laws required the agencies pay more attention to the health of the land, rivers and native wildlife.

Public lands used for grazing in the West shifted to accommodate multiple purposes – not just cattle forage but outdoor recreation, water quality and habitat for endangered species. As that happened, many ranchers saw their freedoms shrink and the bureaucracy of administering new laws grow.
posted by phoque at 10:09 PM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

Even if it does give lip service to the problems of unrestricted grazing, that's still some problematic views of the matter. Specifically:

As that happened, many ranchers saw their freedoms shrink and the bureaucracy of administering new laws grow.

Can I expect to read another article in which I'm told "many factory owners saw their freedoms shrink" because that durned government bureaucracy told them they can't just dump poisonous chemicals into the rivers anymore?

Making a profit by eroding public lands into a fucking desert is not a "freedom" that anyone is owed.
posted by tocts at 4:48 AM on January 6, 2016 [28 favorites]

If someone here know more about this and can briefly comment that would be appreciated. I know ranching is a different beast then the type of cattle farming that's done here but my experience with the local farmers is that they super aware of managing their land and stock so the land stays good. I also doubt that all of these types of ranchers are not aware and care. Are these guys just a subset that don't seem to care? Or is it a matter of the scale of land we're dealing with which leads to a different mindset? Like there's so much around that they figure they don't have to or that it leads to the thinking that there is so much it doesn't or shouldn't matter because if this area gets wrecked there's another to move to.

Just trying to get my head around ranchers/farmers that don't seem to give a shit about ecological issues as in my experience with farmers in my area do give a lot of shits. Granted there are sometimes differences in opinion about how to go about it but it's based on giving a shit.
posted by Jalliah at 5:12 AM on January 6, 2016

They don't get the land at a 93% discount. Grazing fees in Oregon are calculated based on the amount of land, number of cattle allowed, trailing market price for calves and expected weight gain of the cows during the grazing period.
There is a substantial difference in price between renting private pastureland vs government land, but this has to do with the fact that they are seperate markets with different supply and demand factors.
posted by humanfont at 5:16 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

There is a substantial difference in price between renting private pastureland vs government land, but this has to do with the fact that they are seperate markets with different supply and demand factors.

Indeed. Specifically, the government will subsidize ranchers by renting them land at well below market value, while private owners won't.
posted by Gelatin at 5:20 AM on January 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

Indeed. Specifically, the government will subsidize ranchers by renting them land at well below market value, while private owners won't.

Should I be rented sidewalk space at full market value? We subsidize all kinds of stuff, sometimes with good outcomes and sometimes poor; simply attacking things on the basis of being subsidized makes no sense. (On the other hand, calling out the asswipes like Bundy for not wanting to pay even those subsidized fees needs to be front and center.)

I know ranching is a different beast then the type of cattle farming that's done here but my experience with the local farmers is that they super aware of managing their land and stock so the land stays good. I also doubt that all of these types of ranchers are not aware and care. Are these guys just a subset that don't seem to care?

It's a mixed bag. There are ranchers who are in full-on, 100 percent land-destroyer mode all the time, but they are the outliers. The only way to get rich ranching is to start with a huge fortune and own a gazillion acres; anyone ranching on a small scale is working their asses off for not much reward. Ranches have usually been in a family for generations and people know the land intimately, and are trying to make good long term management decisions. They are limited by resources (since as noted there aren't huge profit margins, so economically people need to maximize productivity) and sometimes by tradition ("Dad and grandpa did it this way, so I will too").

Because of the mismanagement of the public lands, it's not like you can talk to a rancher and point to the pristine and well-managed public land as an example of best management practices. There's also a long history here (as well as around the globe) of devaluing local ecological knowledge and practices, and of imposing solutions that work elsewhere without understanding local conditions. A lot of the suggested changes in management mean taking on more risk, which is hard for a shoestring family operation.

In a lot of cases the best results ecologically come from dialing down the pressure on the land -- limiting grazing in riparian areas, keeping animals moving, and so on -- but that takes subsidies, both direct and indirect, such as support for agricultural extension offices. There are ecological benefits to grazing and having herd animals on the land, but only when the numbers are appropriate and the management is consistent with fire cycles and other ecological issues.

I mean I'm not a business dude, but if changes in the public subsidy in the form of land usage I depended on destroyed my business, I might look into another line of work

It's worth thinking through what the alternatives are. Ranches shutting down do not mean that the land becomes wilderness. It often means that the ranches are bought to be managed as private hunting resorts, which means closing off all public access (ranchers are typically great about allowing people on their land; distant owners of resorts close all access) and high impact land management to maximize timber and game value, or are otherwise developed. Grazing allotments just get reapportioned, again usually to large interests with no stake in good local land management.

It's interesting to take a look at government extension office publications and other advice given to farmers of a few decades back (like how to straighten streams with dynamite) -- a lot of the practices that we are now criticizing were considered best scientific management practices of the time and were heavily promoted and subsidized.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:53 AM on January 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Should I be rented sidewalk space at full market value?

No, because everybody gets to use the sidewalk. If you intend to claim a public resource for your own profit, then absolutely. If you intend to claim a public resource for your own profit without regard to the common good, then you should be charged full market value and then some.
posted by Gelatin at 6:06 AM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

anyone ranching on a small scale is working their asses off for not much reward.
For not much financial reward. Some of us just like raising cattle and work off farm only for the cash.
posted by ridgerunner at 6:07 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

simply attacking things on the basis of being subsidized makes no sense.

No one here is doing that.

(On the other hand, calling out the asswipes like Bundy for not wanting to pay even those subsidized fees needs to be front and center.)

This is what everyone here who talks about subsidized fees is doing.
posted by Etrigan at 6:09 AM on January 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Not to mention these guys love wrapping themselves in the whole "rugged, self-reliant, don't need the government" thing. I live among people just like this. They are among the most deluded, childish, self-centered people in the world. They're the people who gripe because rural counties are represented by a handful of legislators at the capitol. (LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU HOW PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION WORKS.)
posted by entropicamericana at 6:36 AM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Why Did The Bundy Brigade Take Over This Particular Oregon Wildlife Refuge?

Hammond sounds light a nightmare neighbor.
posted by Artw at 7:58 AM on January 6, 2016

The amount of private land for lease is substantially less than the amount of public land available. Also the private land tends to have numerous upgrades not available on the public land. Does someone living in an apartment in a building with no amenities in a rough area of town pay the same rent as someone in a two bedroom in an upscale building? The same comparison applies here. The changes in government land policy are a bit like gentrification in the city. People end up evicted to make way for the new condos in the city. People end up out of their ranches to make way for the wildlife refuge.

There is also an element of social policy, just as there is in rent controlled and subsidized housing. In this case ranches were established under government policies setup to encourage the settlement of communities in the West with ranching as a major industry. Now a couple of generations later we're altering the terms and the disruption is understably terrifying.

Unfortunately the political alliances in our country have divided the folks on the wrong end of the economic disruptions. Rural end up voting Republican and blaming big city liberals for their problems. City dwellers end up blaming the rural voters for their problems. The animosity has gotten so great that programs which benefit both like food stamps are cut out of spite. I
posted by humanfont at 9:22 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

“. I”? Was that comment accidentally truncated?
posted by Going To Maine at 9:40 AM on January 6, 2016

No law enforcement authorities are even closing the roads, the Bundy militia is free to come and go as they please and restock their supplies at the nearest Walmart.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:43 AM on January 6, 2016

I can’t tell if that’s ridiculous, or if that’s helping to devalue the takeover in the eyes of the public. I’m leaning towards the former.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:47 AM on January 6, 2016

Actually, to heck with leaning. That’s ridiculous.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:48 AM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

A True History of the Malheur Region

"After listening to the Think Out Loud radio interview this morning I had a few thoughts. The interviewee, a member of the militant militia that have taken over a wildlife refuge suggested that the federal government had not bought the land from the state so it has no rights to the land. The militant suggested that the federal government should give all such holdings back to the states and also suggested that the federal government had to reserve its land ownership to the District of Columbia only.

At no time in this interview was there any discussion about tribal treaties or tribal land rights. Nor was there an informed discussion about the history of the land. The militant suggested that the federal government had just taken the land from farmers and should give it back or they, the militia, were not leaving. I am not sure if they are aware that much of this land never belonged to the state at any time. The land was originally Native land and had been for over 10,000 years.

Previous to farmers owned the land, the land was owned by the various Northern Paiute tribes of the region. The Paiutes ceded the land to the Federal government under the Shoshone-Bannock Treaty, in what amounted to a sale of the land in 1868. In the U.S. Constitution, Treaty making with foreign governments is specifically reserved as a federal government activity, states alone cannot undertake such an action. In 1871 the Malheur Reservation was created there by executive order. This was a federal reservation for the Paiute people. Then in 1878-79 the Bannock War happened causing the federal government to close the reservation in 1880. The war occurred because the Paiute people, were not at all happy with how they were being treated on the reservation. They left the reservation and the War involved trying to capture them to return them to the reservation. After closure of the reservation, the Paiutes were scattered between several reservations (Warm Springs, Yakima) and a few remained in that area. Those who remained received off-reservation allotments under the 1887 Dawes act. The Burns Paiute tribe was not restored until 1972.
.......
"
posted by Rumple at 10:01 AM on January 6, 2016 [15 favorites]

The Bundys And The Irony Of American Vigilantism, Jedediah Purdy, New Yorker

But Bundy’s movement makes sense—a strange and parochial kind, but still sense—only in a more specifically American and Western context. In American politics, there are two traditions of laying claims by occupying a place. The more familiar kind, which belongs to the left and the civil-rights movement, makes private spaces more public and political. Strikes asserted workers’ role in their employers’ factories and mines. Sit-ins at lunch counters asserted a principle of equality against business owners’ traditional legal right to decide whom to admit to their places. The Occupy movement made the privately owned but publicly accessible Zuccotti Park into a pageant of participatory, consensual democracy and anarchist self-organization, at least for two months in 2011.

The other tradition turns public land into private property by occupying it. Historically, it has been anything but a protest technique.

Kieran Healy: The Federal Government Owns a Lot of Land and Checkered Past - "While making the maps for yesterday’s post about the extent of US federal landownership, I noticed an odd checker-pattern in one part of it. It flowed through northern Nevada and Utah, and then out a ways into southern Wyoming. I did enough work to make sure it wasn’t a coding error on my part, but didn’t pursue it any further. This morning, JP Lien asked me about it on Twitter, and we both took a closer look. Here’s what the pattern looks like close up."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:16 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thats a protected tweet Numaner, whats the joke?

aww dammit, it was one of the #daddysworeanoath parodies, this guy held up his nook with Dune on the screen swearing the spice must flow.
posted by numaner at 10:19 AM on January 6, 2016

Do not fuck with birders - Warning from the Birding Community to the Terrorists in Oregon: We're Watching You
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 10:27 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Do NOT fuck with birders.
posted by charred husk at 10:38 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

The book Forest Dreams, Forest Nightmares: The Paradox of Old Growth in the Inland West is a fantastic history of forestry and land management in the Blue Mountains.

Nancy Langston, the author of that book, has a good op-ed piece in the Times today about the issue:

When mythic histories supplant the complexities of the past, the results can be lethal. Equitable futures for Western public lands won’t be achieved when ideologues swagger in, brandishing guns and taking over federal buildings. Rather, they develop from the hard work of collaboration, like the 2013 effort that brought together the local community, tribes, conservation groups and the state and federal governments to develop a new management plan for Malheur. These are the efforts that best respect the region’s history while pointing the way to a sustainable future.

posted by Dip Flash at 11:00 AM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

> No law enforcement authorities are even closing the roads, the Bundy militia is free to come and go as they please and restock their supplies at the nearest Walmart.

You'd think law enforcement would quietly pull them over one by one. The nearest three Walmarts to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge are in Bend (156 miles away), Ontario (160 miles away), and Redmond (170 miles away). The biggest store within 100 miles is the Safeway in Burns. Good thing these geniuses arrived in trucks.

"Where's Joe?" "He went to Walmart to get us some cheese doodles and toilet paper." "When'd he leave?" "8 hours ago." "Okay, he'll be back in a while then."
posted by phoebus at 11:18 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Some of the militants belong to a small political party, The American Independent Party, inspired by a speech Ezra Taft Benson once made. Benson was a prophet of the LDS Church and a member of the John Birch Society. The AIP picked up four percent of the Utah vote in the 2014 election. The LDS Church does not support the actions of the militants at the Malheur Refuge, but called for all adult Mormons to read Ezra Taft Benson's writings last year.

The American Independent Party also does not support the actions of the militants over on the bird refuge.

If you follow their militant logic, I should go in with weapons to The Bear River Bird Refuge and seize the opportunity to open up a barbecue stand. It is no wonder they have failed to garner credible support.

No system is perfect. What has happened to farmers and ranchers in North Dakota is a good example of traditional land use meets the oil and gas industry leases. This is where farmers find their land, water, and air, encroached upon and poisoned by industrial use of agricultural land, with poor environmental oversight or protections.

Actively campaigning for the erosion of environmental considerations is bread and butter for industries who stand to gain from resource exploitation. These guys are idealogues with little knowledge of the larger issues. Armed with their comic book constitution, guns, fatigues, and pickup trucks they want to be relevant, they want celebrity, I am surprised Sarah Palin hasn't showed up yet. Probably not enough money for either Palin or Coulter to get up a retinue.

These militants are amateurs. Maybe next time they should take over an ant farm or their next door neighbor's garden.
posted by Oyéah at 11:19 AM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am surprised Sarah Palin hasn't showed up yet.

Hush, now.
posted by Gelatin at 11:22 AM on January 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

ubi incurrunt ipsi in desertum , vocant bellum
posted by pyramid termite at 11:25 AM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow, an associate professor at Duke hadn't heard of the railroad land grants? Being a humble state university graduate, I never understood the Duke jokes on the Internet before. I guess I understand now.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:47 AM on January 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Warning from the Birding Community to the Terrorists in Oregon: We're Watching You

the comic in the comments is great
posted by numaner at 11:59 AM on January 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

Some of the militants belong to a small political party ... The American Independent Party also does not support the actions of the militants over on the bird refuge.

According to JJ MacNab, the Independent American Party is the reason why the couple that killed two Las Vegas police officers moved from Indiana to Nevada — they were there to support IAP candidate David Lory VanDerBeek's run for governor. Shortly before the killings, one of the Las Vegas shooters had clearly gone off the deep end, and on June 2nd posted to Facebook a rant saying that oppression could only be stopped with bloodshed.

According to MacNab, VanDerBeek's campaign manager was one of the handful of people who hit the like button on that post.

Cliven Bundy joined the Independent American Party after his standoff and gave a speech at an IAP event in his honor. The speech roughly outlined his worldview, and it's been a while since I listened to it, and the whole thing is pretty tedious (like, there's this tangent about how desert tortoise conservation is responsible for high gas prices, or something). If I recall correctly, he talks about his belief that federal ownership of land is generally illegal for non-military purposes. He also describes the federal government as a bush whose branches have been beaten (i.e., in the 2014 Bundy standoff), but whose roots need to be cut. At other times he's explicitly stated that if county sheriffs don't disarm the federal government, people would need to fight the government themselves.

The IAP may not explicitly endorse these actions, but a lot of their most prominent members have extremist views. What's happening right now in Oregon is apparently causing a rift within the party.
posted by compartment at 12:56 PM on January 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I just noticed a similar checkerboard pattern in logging while I had Oregon up on Google Maps satellite view. I wonder if it's related.
posted by indubitable at 12:58 PM on January 6, 2016

Episode One: A Stupid Menace
posted by numaner at 1:06 PM on January 6, 2016

I just noticed a similar checkerboard pattern in logging while I had Oregon up on Google Maps satellite view. I wonder if it's related.

Almost certainly.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:12 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Also. And here.)
posted by entropicamericana at 1:18 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Fed should start charging admission and add and area where you can buy pellets to feed the militia-men.
posted by drezdn at 1:35 PM on January 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

And more locals who want the intruders to go home.
posted by leslies at 2:01 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

What crimes would these guys get charged with at this point? Trespass, breaking and entering, vandalism? Are any of those crimes serious enough to generate real prison time?
posted by humanfont at 2:42 PM on January 6, 2016

They can get up to two years for bringing guns into the refuge headquarters building.
posted by compartment at 3:04 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

What crimes would these guys get charged with at this point? Trespass, breaking and entering, vandalism? Are any of those crimes serious enough to generate real prison time?

I’m not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that using guns to seize control of public/government property and refusing to leave should get you in some kind of legal trouble.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:07 PM on January 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I mean, if it doesn’t then any further allegations by these folks about the terrible oppressiveness of the US government should be summarily ignored.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:09 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Decemberists Frontman Colin Meloy Tweeted Erotic Fanfiction About the Militia Standoff and It's Awesome

"They huddled together for warmth. The cold of Ammon's Ruger 22 against Brian's naked thigh sent a thrill up his spine." #bundyeroticfanfic
— colin meloy (@colinmeloy) January 6, 2016

posted by Nelson at 4:10 PM on January 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

What crimes would these guys get charged with at this point? Trespass, breaking and entering, vandalism? Are any of those crimes serious enough to generate real prison time?

If those signs/posts they burned (or any other federal property they destroyed) are worth more than $1000 (felony), than per 18 U.S.C. § 1361 a fine and up to 10 years in prison. Less than $1000 (misdemeanor), it's up to a year.

Per US CRM 1666, for the felony offense "the defendant is subject to a fine of up to $250,000, ten years imprisonment, or both." It is a fine of up to $100k, one year imprisonment, or both, for the misdemeanor.
posted by zakur at 4:21 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Possibly relevant Oregon laws:

ORS 164.255 Criminal trespass in the first degree. This is a Class A misdemeanor, which could mean prison time of up to 1 year.

If intent to commit a crime (during the trespass) can be shown then it could be ORS 164.215 Burglary in the second degree. This is a class C felony, which could mean prison time of up to 5 years.

And for those that it is shown were armed it could be ORS 164.225 Burglary in the first degree. This is a class A felony, which could mean prison time of up to 20 years.

These were suggested by a lawyer, but I am not that lawyer and I am not a lawyer.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:24 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Heh. My first thought was "Forget Oregon laws, they should be charged federally!", but then I started to appreciate the beautiful irony of the Feds taking a completely hands-off approach, and them going to state prison instead. Not sure how plausible that is, but it would be great. Arrested by the County Sheriff and all...
posted by Anoplura at 4:43 PM on January 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

How would this go down if instead they had invaded Putin's favorite bird-watching reserve, outside Moscow?
posted by newdaddy at 4:44 PM on January 6, 2016

It's starting to feel a bit odd how much effort you've been putting into painting these folks in a sympathetic light.

They're not monsters. They're idiots.
posted by Cookiebastard at 5:28 PM on January 6, 2016

They're idiots brandishing guns and a tendancy for armed confrontation with my government. I see little reason to treat them sympathetically, or to use this particular minor sedition as a reason to open some new debate on long-settled principles of federal land management.
posted by Nelson at 5:45 PM on January 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

Let these right-wing yahoos beg for snacks from a prison commissary.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:37 PM on January 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I feel the obligation to caution anyone from siding with the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) in all cases, they have programs to exterminate coyotes, wolves, and random wildlife victims in their traps, in order to protect the local interests of sheep and cattle ranchers, using old and terrible ranching policies in areas of concern. On the other hand, their staff archaeologists, rangers and field personnel are awesome, experienced and aware, and can point you to hidden petroglyphs if you ask.
posted by Brian B. at 9:01 PM on January 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

The native Paiute tribal leadership weighs in:

The tribe is still fighting over land use but now works with the federal government's Bureau of Land Management to save its archaeological sites. "We have good relations with the refuge. They protect our cultural rights there," said tribal council Chairwoman Charlotte Rodrique....
The tribe said it has never ceded its right to the land but received federal recognition in 1868 and signed a treaty with the federal government that requires it to protect the safety of the natives and promised to prosecute any crime or injury perpetrated by any white man upon them.
posted by Brian B. at 9:30 PM on January 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

Crimes: They were driving heavy equipment owned by the federal government to block roads today, in fear of police taking the place back. That would probably count as theft or car theft or something.

What's the opposite of kidnapping -- preventing someone from the lawful entry to a place?

Theft from use of electricity, cooking equipment, bathrooms, etc.

Certainly threats.

use of firearms in other crimes. Odds are pretty good that at least one of these guys has criminal convictions that make their gun possession illegal, and impose additional penalties for use of guns in further crimes. Probation violations?
posted by msalt at 11:12 PM on January 6, 2016

Can you get nominal and punitive damages (like in Jacque v. Steenberg Homes, Inc) in a civil trespass suit in Oregon?
posted by ctmf at 11:58 PM on January 6, 2016

They were driving heavy equipment owned by the federal government to block roads today, in fear of police taking the place back.

Starting to question the wisdom of the federal government's "leave the keys under the mat" policy...
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:07 AM on January 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

On a more serious note:

> They're not monsters. They're idiots.

i think that at the upper level they are probably more correctly grifters, although that does not stop them from being either monsters or idiots (or both). The nature of the grift is pretty simple - engineer a confrontation with federal authorities, get as much airtime as you can, ask for donations. The endgame is probably to get a TV show.

Unfortunately, this particular grift involves setting up in a specific location and claiming to be ready to kill agents of the federal government. Which means, as we saw in the case of the Las Vegas shootings, becoming potentially a catch and release program for spree killers.

If I were tasked with enforcing the law in Burns, Oregon, I wouldn't be too worried about the head grifters - if things get too hot, they will pack up their card table and run, or serve a short sentence in jail to benefit the long grift. I would be worried about the people who sincerely believe that killing a couple of cops will spark an uprising against the tyranny of government.
posted by running order squabble fest at 1:42 AM on January 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

I think the Bundy's are shifty and exploiting the situation to further a scam, probably involving direct mail fundraising for themselves. However their power comes from people who are genuinely afraid and concerned for their community's future. I am from the rural west and I know a lot of folks who have those same fears. I think we need to try to understand and sympathize with these fears to diffuse the Bundy's toxic bullshit.

I also know a of people who welcome the changes over the last few decades. I love that the wolves are back and that public lands are now used for something other than resource extraction and over grazing. I feel like my side has carried the day on the right policies, I now think the time has come to work on helping people adjust better. We need to figure out how to support those that remain better.
posted by humanfont at 5:14 AM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yelp reviews Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
posted by beagle at 6:51 AM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the Bundy's are shifty and exploiting the situation to further a scam, probably involving direct mail fundraising for themselves.

It's always about the money.

Here's this quarter's variation of the NRA's fund drive cycle:

"Obama and Clinton want to take away your Second Amendment Rights!!! We need your support to fight against this infringement on your rights! Support us at the 100 dollar level at NRA dot org, and we'll send you our exclusive NRA tote-bag as our gift..."
posted by mikelieman at 7:34 AM on January 7, 2016

Here's this quarter's variation of the NRA's fund drive cycle:

"Obama and Clinton want to take away your Second Amendment Rights!!! We need your support to fight against this infringement on your rights! Support us at the 100 dollar level at NRA dot org, and we'll send you our exclusive NRA tote-bag as our gift..."

"Oh, and by the way, here's where you can buy more of these things that Obama wants to take away (conveniently brought to you by our corporate owners supporters)."
posted by Etrigan at 7:52 AM on January 7, 2016

NYTimes editorial: Guns, Anger, and Nonsense in Oregon
posted by newdaddy at 8:01 AM on January 7, 2016

IMO, the Bundy's are absolutely True Believers in many ways - Cliven Bundy has been battling the BLM in court for twenty years on the basis of a bunch of "sovereign citizen" nonsense, where whacko interpretations of the US Constitution means that the Federal government doesn't have the standing to determine land use and the highest legal authority is the county sheriff.

Bundy Ranch blog.

Bundy's YouTube channel.

The "scam" they're interested in is getting free land to ranch on, but they don't see it as a scam, they see it as their natural God-and-constitutionally-guaranteed rights.

Harpers: The Great Republican Land Heist
posted by soundguy99 at 8:20 AM on January 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Lesson for Stalemated Sides in Oregon: A Texas Standoff Without End. John Joe Gray has been holed up in a barbed-wire compound for 15 years, avoiding charges of assaulting a Texas state trooper.
posted by Nelson at 8:52 AM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Malheur occupation in Oregon: whose land is it really?

Interesting article that covers the history that brought the land from Paiute to federal control and decisions upholding it. There are a lot of good links. I was fascinated by Duck stamps. And there is also a link looking at the first Sagebrush Rebellion the grievances and recurrence.
posted by phoque at 8:59 AM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

I feel like my side has carried the day on the right policies, I now think the time has come to work on helping people adjust better. We need to figure out how to support those that remain better.

Other than being nicer to them in Internet comments, what specifically do you propose we do here? There are a lot of other Americans who've had their way of life threatened by technological, cultural, and societal change who aren't starting fires and holing up in public buildings with firearms. Am I to blame for feeling more sympathy for West Virginia coal miners and Detroit autoworkers than I feel for these people who, for all they're losing now, had a lot more to lose in the first place? I don't think it's that hard to understand the moral hazard of continuing to offer them heavily-subsidized access in perpetuity to a resource that they're threatening to burn if they don't get their way.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:11 AM on January 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

Lesson for Stalemated Sides in Oregon: A Texas Standoff Without End. John Joe Gray has been holed up in a barbed-wire compound for 15 years, avoiding charges of assaulting a Texas state trooper.

A woman approached, and she was asked to relay an interview request to Mr. Gray. He declined. A young man in a cowboy hat who was part of the group was told about the charge being dropped, but he waved his hand dismissively and walked away.

On Wednesday, the same woman returned to the gate, this time with a rifle over her shoulder. A man with her in camouflage pants was also armed. They were told of the sheriff’s comments that Mr. Gray was no longer a fugitive.

“We can’t believe anything they say, and we can’t believe anything y’all reporters say,” she said.

This is actually kind of the perfect ending. This guy has been holed up in a cruddy compound for 15 years in order to avoid detention for assaulting an officer, and now that charges have officially been dropped and he's free to leave, he's so invested in his "Feds are jackbooted thugs" philosophy that he's eschewing freedom and retreating back into his pathetic, self-made prison for the long haul. That's one less nutter the rest of us have to deal with.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:35 AM on January 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sounds like he sentenced himself to house arrest even before the trial's verdict. What happened to presumed innocence? This guy is pretty intent on violating his own constitutional rights.
posted by Think_Long at 9:40 AM on January 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

i think that at the upper level they are probably more correctly grifters, although that does not stop them from being either monsters or idiots (or both).

It's an eclectic mix of grifters, monsters, and idiots united not so much by a common cause as they are by paranoia. Surf on over to Three Percent founder Mike Vanderboegh's blog, and you'll find instructions on how to send him anonymous cash donations. But you'll also find a recent post where he calls out one of the armed occupiers by name as a federal agent provocateur. The comment thread is rich with deeper flavors of paranoia, including allegations that the entire Malheur takeover is a false flag operation, and that federal agencies are "part of a for-profit mostly foreign owned corporation ... operating only in the jurisdiction of the Sea or Admiralty and Maritime jurisdiction."

(As a tangent, let me just say this: I googled "conspiracy theories involving maritime law." Apparently some people believe that any court with a gold-fringed flag is a SECRET MARITIME COURT.)

Vanderboegh is the guy who, speaking in metaphor, warned Harry Reid of wolverine-related castration risks after the 2014 Bundy standoff.

Also present at the Bundy Ranch in 2014 was Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes. After the standoff, Rhodes got "intel" that Eric Holder was preparing a drone strike against them; his willingness to pull out over drone-related fears supposedly almost led to a gunfight between the militia contingent and the Oath Keepers.

Now Rhodes is condemning the Malheur occupation, and he claims to have new "intel" that JSOC has moved into the area. To support his allegation of leftists "frothing at the mouth and demanding blood" he quotes Montel Williams. Rhodes (and most people in his comments section) seem to regard the Malheur takeover as a terrible mistake, but he also believes that this whole thing could somehow result in civil war.

With the exception of the Bundy supporters who actually took over the refuge headquarters, pretty much everyone is against this. Members of the fringe anti-government crowd seem to believe that the Bundys have naively surrounded themselves with people who are hotheads at best or provocateurs at worst.
posted by compartment at 9:50 AM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I really don't know what the right answer is here. I feel like, the longer you let them all extol the heartiness of their ham-and-biscuit breakfasts, and the comfort of sleeping in a warm bed every night, the more inviting it looks to others. People won't remember how it ended, they'll remember what a grand old time they had, those first several months.

If they were there unarmed, protesting land use policies, I'd let them stay all year, heck, I'd bring them some sleeping bags and s'mores. God bless'em all.

But given that they have automatic weapons, and talked a lot of smack about "kill or be killed", the response of law enforcement needs to be deliberate and overwhelming. I feel like the cautious, measured response here is exactly the wrong answer. Law enforcement is putting themselves at more and more risk the longer they let this go on. They need to make this something that no one would ever even consider repeating, for their own safety.

I don't know what the right thing is, but didn't we invest a chunk of tax money in equipment to answer domestic terror threats, back after 9/11? What happened to all that stuff?
posted by newdaddy at 9:51 AM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

If you think that Texas story I linked is some kind of justice of self-inflicted house arrest, you may not have read to the end of the article, the part where he stole two children from their father.

Few had put more pressure on the authorities to enter the compound than Keith Tarkington, 49, the former son-in-law of Mr. Gray. A court order granted Mr. Tarkington custody of his two children, but he believes his sons and ex-wife have been living in the compound. He tried but failed to persuade officials to enforce the court order. His sons are now 18 and 19, and he believes they have been sequestered with Mr. Gray since they were infants.

We are a nation of laws. Fair enforcement of the law is what keeps our society functioning. Men like Mr. Gray in Texas or the Bundys or Timothy McVeigh or violent tax protestors undermine America.
posted by Nelson at 10:38 AM on January 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

They need to make this something that no one would ever even consider repeating, for their own safety.


These kind of people swoon at the idea of martyrhood. Ruby Ridge is a name well known in federal response to such things, and despite all the evidence of the terrible things going down in Waco, that compound is also up there. They served as inspirations for others.

I'm fortunate or not to have some people on my facebook who are rather conservative and short of dropping a guided missile on these people, anything less will simply serve as inspiration for others to take up arms against the "government" and start the second third American Revolution to free the good citizens of America from a tyrannical godless government. (The "second revolution" was how a lot of Confederates dressed up their secession from the United States, going so far as to make George Washington on a horse part of the national seal.)
posted by Atreides at 11:44 AM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

"One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty." —Martin Luther King, Letter from a Birmingham Jail

"We've broken no laws and there's not one 'No Trespassing' sign here." —Armed idiot who warmed himself by fire made of cut-down signs
posted by compartment at 11:54 AM on January 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

If those signs/posts they burned (or any other federal property they destroyed) are worth more than $1000 (felony), than per 18 U.S.C. § 1361 a fine and up to 10 years in prison. Less than $1000 (misdemeanor), it's up to a year.


There is no such thing as a government sign that costs less than $1000. Go look at how much they would charge you if you ran one over. There's warnings and stories all over the Internet. Hell, a stop sign on a residential street costs several thousand.

There's essentially no way they've done less than 1k in damage. You have to factor in the costs of installing new signs too, not just the signs and other stuff itself.
posted by emptythought at 12:07 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I bent a highway railing in a crash that was my fault and part of my insurance payout for my totaled car included paying the local government $500 to what amounts bending a piece of metal back into place. These guys a burning thousands of dollars.

Also: Tarp Man
posted by numaner at 12:28 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

> A court order granted Mr. Tarkington custody of his two children, but he believes his sons and ex-wife have been living in the compound. He tried but failed to persuade officials to enforce the court order

What the hell.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:29 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Burns Paiute tribal council member Jarvis Kennedy passionately asks protestors to leave the Oregon wildlife refuge they have been occupying for days. (autoplay video)

Tribal council member Jarvis Kennedy took a much more direct approach (see video above), saying protesters need to "get the hell out."

"We as Harney County residents don't need some clown to come in here and stand up for us," he said.
posted by Rumple at 12:41 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

An Anthropologist looks at the Oregon situation

Farmers and ranchers long served as the ideal locus of national identity, and any outcome to the standoff in Oregon will find a logical place in that undeniably violent history. The denouement will either be cast as another federal intervention into the management of the American West, or it will be another issuance of exceptionalism for the Anglo-American agriculturalist.

How, in closing, might hashtags like #YallQaeda and #YeeHawd change the imagined face of domestic terrorism in the United States? Can the label of terrorist stick to the American farmer or rancher? Or, if not, what language do we have for civil disobedience that carries weapons and leaps to the unsolicited rescue of any agrarian at odds with the feds? I suspect that most Americans are not prepared to apply the label of terrorist to those who look like the heroes of a Hollywood Western. Our terrorist imaginary has a different face in mind. Instead, given how distant issues of rural livelihood are from most Americans’ daily experiences, I worry that we will content ourselves with being amused by the spectacle in Oregon even as ranch country drifts further away from what any pastoralist would consider a good life.
posted by Rumple at 12:49 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Pizza, rifles and tension: a night inside the Oregon protest

The brothers have taken over the cozy and cluttered office of Linda Sue Beck, a biologist and civil servant they have come to view as a symbol the federal government. They said they would allow Beck to come to gather her personal belongings. But they don’t want her to return to work.

“She’s not here working for the people,” declared Ryan Bundy, the more outspoken of the brothers. “She’s not benefiting America. She’s part of what’s destroying America.”
posted by phoque at 1:10 PM on January 7, 2016

Oregon sheriff has received numerous death threats since militia takeover
posted by adamvasco at 2:03 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yelp reviews Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

Pluses: Uncrowded, wide variety of avian life, low cost amenities.

Minuses: Armed lunatics, intrusive reporters. Maintenance has recently declined.
posted by msalt at 2:27 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also: Tarp Man

That's actually Ed Harris preparing for an upcoming role and punking MSNBC.
posted by peeedro at 2:28 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

what language do we have for civil disobedience that carries weapons ?

If it carries weapons, it is by definition not civil disobedience. It's armed revolt.
posted by msalt at 2:35 PM on January 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Not unless they use them, but of course just having them there raises the tension and increases the chance of a Waco style incident where they can say they were just defending themselves when one side or another takes the first shot.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:48 PM on January 7, 2016

Of course they are using them. They're using them as a threat rather than actually firing them in most cases, but a threat is still a use.
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on January 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

Tearful militant discovers friend drank away donation money: ‘It’s like finding out there is no such thing as Santa’
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:54 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Artw, I'm making kind of a nuanced point here that it's probably not necessary to define "armed revolt" down to include assholes toting guns in a threatening manner. The behavior is menacing enough without changing what words mean.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:55 PM on January 7, 2016

Do you think we shouldn't call it armed robbery if the cashier doesn't get shot?
posted by Drinky Die at 3:00 PM on January 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

Exactly. If they fire their weapons, then it's a violent attack. Armed means you are carrying weapons, nothing more or less.
posted by msalt at 3:07 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, we do have different penalties for whether the guns are used or not, but your apples to donuts comparison aside, I get your point -- obviously the guns aren't there for fun, they're there to threaten law enforcement and make their political argument more persuasive.

Still, in my mind, the phrase "armed revolt" carries connotations greater than the sum of its constituent words, and implies using guns to actually overthrow the government, so I'm uncomfortable with using it in this case. "Terrorism" or even "armed terrorism" seems more appropriate to me, but this isn't a hill I'm going to die on.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:08 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm down with armed revolt. The fact that it's a stupid, futile revolt doesn't make it any less; they want to subvert the laws of the country and they show arms in their stand. The fact that they are more likely to win Powerball than to get what they want doesn't matter. It's armed sedition and has traditionally carried very harsh penalties.

I get that the authorities are trying to avoid making them martyrs or inciting a Waco-style bloodbath, but you also have to remember that the penalties are there to deter the behavior. If people figure out the penalties don't apply to white folks then white folks won't be deterred, and they will keep doing this even in this kind of stupid and inconsequential way.

I just hope the Feds actually have a not too long term plan to end this in a way that thoroughly humiliates these assholes.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:29 PM on January 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

If a revolt starts in the woods and no one comes to oppose it does it still make a sound?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:35 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Come on, you know you can't win with this demographic. That will only radicalize them even more with anger that the poor sheep didn't appreciate all they were doing for them. Congratulations, now you have government haters plus contempt for the general public.

You're right about the true believers for sure. I guess it just feel like there are a few cracks now where a short while ago Fox would have had these guys on 24/7.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:37 PM on January 7, 2016

Tearful militant discovers friend drank away donation money: ‘It’s like finding out there is no such thing as Santa’

his friends tearfully announced that Oshaugnessy, who is known as “Capt. O,” had left the refuge Wednesday and was instead staying at a motel nearby — as some others associated with the militants have apparently been doing, according to sources.

Some of the militants have reportedly been spotted eating at area restaurants during the standoff, as well.

The militants have been allowed to come and go freely from the nature preserve in the absence of a law enforcement presence, but at least one of them, Brian “Booda” Cavalier, failed to return after a newspaper report revealed he had lied about serving in the U.S. Marines.

posted by twist my arm at 3:40 PM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Omg I want to show up as they are eating Popeyes and MOCK
posted by angrycat at 3:55 PM on January 7, 2016

“Terrorism” or even “armed terrorism” seems more appropriate to me, but this isn’t a hill I’m going to die on.

FWIW, I’m actually in the opposite camp. It doesn’t seem like terrorism, because they aren’t trying to create terror. It seems like a revolt because they are protesting the authority of the US government.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:56 PM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

At Bundy encampment, outsider says militants 'attacked' his group

Violence broke out at the Bundy compound Wednesday night between its militant occupants and members of an outside group whose leader says he wants to get women and children out of the compound.

Lewis Arthur, who leads a group called Veterans on Patrol and calls himself an anti-violence patriot, arrived Wednesday afternoon with a small crew.

By Wednesday night, one of Arthur's three-person crew was in the hospital, his eye blackened from a punch to the face.
posted by phoque at 4:03 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been going with armed insurrection. It's more specific than terrorism (while echoing it) and insurrection feels more akin to a protest while revolt feels more akin to a bigger takeover attempt.
posted by imbri at 4:17 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't understand why the authorities haven't shut off the electricity yet.
posted by grouse at 4:20 PM on January 7, 2016

At Bundy encampment, outsider says militants 'attacked' his group

This is so bizarre.
posted by Jalliah at 4:25 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

It doesn’t seem like terrorism, because they aren’t trying to create terror.

18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions:

"(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—

(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended—

(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States."

Emphasis mine.

I'd say what they're doing certainly fits that definition of "domestic terrorism."
posted by soundguy99 at 4:26 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

The comment thread is rich with deeper flavors of paranoia, including allegations that the entire Malheur takeover is a false flag operation, and that federal agencies are "part of a for-profit mostly foreign owned corporation ... operating only in the jurisdiction of the Sea or Admiralty and Maritime jurisdiction."

(As a tangent, let me just say this: I googled "conspiracy theories involving maritime law." Apparently some people believe that any court with a gold-fringed flag is a SECRET MARITIME COURT.)

You mock but I have compelling evidence that famed maritime lawyer Chareth Cutestory is just a cover identity for some privileged California liberal all tied up in lightly treasonous CIA actitivies in Iraq.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:28 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

Interesting - then yes, I’d say that could be considered to be terrorism. However, I’d also be inclined to see most takeovers of government buildings as terrorism as well, since it could certainly be argued that they are intended to intimidate.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:32 PM on January 7, 2016

I think there's an enormous difference when the takeover is armed.
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:36 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I'm not really sure how anyone can claim that demands being accompanied by loaded guns don't contribute to a situation being coercive or intimidating.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:42 PM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Tearful militant discovers friend drank away donation money: ‘It’s like finding out there is no such thing as Santa’

Oh God, his life is really going to suck when he find out that there is also no Santa.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:46 PM on January 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

I’d also be inclined to see most takeovers of government buildings as terrorism as well, since it could certainly be argued that they are intended to intimidate.

Like when citizens went into the Michigan state capitol building and were singing songs to protest the governor's dismantling of unions. That was definitely terrorism. /sarcasm
posted by hippybear at 4:47 PM on January 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

> I don't understand why the authorities haven't shut off the electricity yet

This is just me guessing, but maybe they don't want to give them an excuse to burn office stuff for heat. They've already burned signs for a campfire, and they've demonstrated that their survival skills are less than what's needed to get a Girl Scout "Camper" badge. I wouldn't put it beyond them to start fires indoors.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:59 PM on January 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Photos of the headquarters/visitor center show that it has a chimney. I'd assume it's functional. I start a fire indoors on a regular basis with no ill effects, because I have a fireplace.
posted by hippybear at 5:01 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, but you are not a moron.
posted by Artw at 5:02 PM on January 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

The New Yorker nails it.
posted by humanfont at 5:13 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

However, I’d also be inclined to see most takeovers of government buildings as terrorism as well, since it could certainly be argued that they are intended to intimidate.

See part (A) of the definition: involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State.

Loaded guns I think qualify as "dangerous to human life", and it's already been established that it's illegal for them to bring firearms into Federal buildings.

Not at all sure that "most" takeovers of government buildings involve acts dangerous to human life.

I mean, look, call it whatever you want - my point is more that regardless of how you would define their actions, there certainly seems to be a legal basis for the Feds treating this as "domestic terrorism" when or if they're actually charged with anything.

(Although as far as my non-lawyer ass can tell, "terrorism" seems to more of a sort of "force multiplier" for sentencing guidelines rather than a specific criminal charge.)
posted by soundguy99 at 5:19 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm curious -- what's up with the Velcro patches? Why don't they sew them on? (This isn't limited to these guys -- I've seen the same thing from the military to Stargate Atlantis.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:27 PM on January 7, 2016

Picking up a needle and thread is too much of a girly activity for such manly men?

(In my Boy Scout troop in the 80s, it was a mark of honor to sew on your own patches, no matter how bad the job was. But that's just my own "hey, you're a faggot, you like girly things" PTSD assessment of how men like this interact with the world.)
posted by hippybear at 5:38 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
posted by phoque at 5:38 PM on January 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

The corpse in the library: “I'm curious -- what's up with the Velcro patches?”

“The addition of Velcro on the sleeves to attach patches was intended to keep a Soldier from spending money modifying uniforms with new patches and skill badges. But this savings has been lost in a couple of ways.” It's worth noting that the Velcro is now optional, since it doesn't last.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:59 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

fbi reaches for the phone
'get me truckasaurus'

truckasaurus is taking time off
he has an estranged daughter
'you should take the chance i never did abby'
his phone rings
'i have to go abby i am real sorry'
'i know dad i know'
'remember what i said'
'i will i will take the chance'

'talk to me chief'
truckasaurus has a tureen of coffee in one claw
it pours scalding hot liquid down his metal front
'truckasaurus we have a situation some bad guys do not know they are bad guys and they think they are good guys and worse yet they think they are good guys that john cena might play in a movie'
'this is serious'
'and they have guns'
'do they have bullets'
'yes'
'why not give them more bullets very quickly'
'damn your robot heart truckasaurus these are people real people dummies with families and beards and some of them even have youtube followers so technology'
truckasaurus rips the coffee tureen in half in rending steel jaws and sighs
'i am getting too old for politics chief'
chief is silent crushed by falling scraps of metal

'hey beardos it is me truckasaurus lets come out and talk'
'how do we know we can trust you'
truckasaurus rips a car in half and spits fire
then he sits on the car backwards
'i think he is on the level commander beard'
whispers one to the other as truckasaurus wrecks the smeck out of that car
the beardos do not discuss their boners

'so how do you want to do this'
'we have all the gripes truckasaurus and we are ready to fight'
'what are your gripes'
'we want a seat at the table'
'what table'
'the government table'
'so you came to middle of nowhere bird place'
'yes'
truckasaurus feels his patience fade quickly

'so the hard way i hate the hard way'
truckasaurus rolls off the crushed car
beardos get worried
'wait we did not say we would fight much'
'okay'
'maybe if we can each ride in you than we can go home and say our honor has been restored also can you make me a truckasaurus too'
'no deal i am a lone wolf who is also a dinosaur who spits fire also you guys look like you smell like feet and i have to be at my daughters wedding this weekend and i do not do that sort of thing no more'
'okay fair point about the feet thing turns out there are no showers here because it is a gift shop'
'maybe you should just go'
'but we tried so hard and got so far'
'but in the end nothing really matters amirite'
commander beardo weeps
'you get us truckasuarus you get us'

'i am pleased to announce the end to the occupation'
truckasaurus is wearing his best tie which is made from a shipping container door
the media takes pictures as each beardo files out of the gift shop
each shakes a truckasaurus claw
each gets a selfie because technology
then they file slowly into their beardowagon
'i feel like i learned a lot about myself and how good government works'
says commander beardo to his first mate
first mate tries to nod and be stoic but is surprised
truckasaurus is right in front of the van
'suckers'
truckasaurus says
the beardos scream but
the van is in the air
the flame jets are going
the beardos wanted a seat at the table
but now they only get the edge
of metal teeth

the end

or is it

it is
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:17 PM on January 7, 2016 [34 favorites]

Picking up a needle and thread is too much of a girly activity for such manly men?

True dat. In the online backpacking communities with a DIY ethic of making their own gear, sewing machines are called thread injectors or fabric welders because sewing is a gendered activity.
posted by peeedro at 6:17 PM on January 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

its much more manly to affix your badges using the same material a 4 year old uses to tie their shoes
posted by entropicamericana at 6:20 PM on January 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

I feel like the point that's being missed is that there is a firearm in circulation for every man, woman and child in America now. If these guys can make it look like a fun holiday to protest (with firearms) whatever branch or component of government you disagree with, America will become chaos overnight.
posted by newdaddy at 6:22 PM on January 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

was intended to keep a Soldier from spending money modifying uniforms with new patches

Well, also the patches can be easily removed for operational security. There are places where you don't want to be advertising force makeup, number of units, etc. inadvertently by wearing unit insignia around. That's the kind of metadata that can be compiled into useful information by observant hostile forces.
posted by ctmf at 6:33 PM on January 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like the point that’s being missed is that there is a firearm in circulation for every man, woman and child in America now. If these guys can make it look like a fun holiday to protest (with firearms) whatever branch or component of government you disagree with, America will become chaos overnight.

This seems provably wrong, unless your assumption is that these guys aren’t making it look like a fun holiday.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:42 PM on January 7, 2016

Not terrorist but more like claim jumpers.
posted by ridgerunner at 6:46 PM on January 7, 2016

The American Conservative: What the Oregon Standoff Is Really About, Justin Raimondo - "Forget the Bundys and "terrorism"—the real crime is what federal bullies do to ranchers like the Hammond family."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:43 PM on January 7, 2016

What the Oregon Standoff Was Supposed To Be Is Really About
posted by Going To Maine at 7:48 PM on January 7, 2016

This Land is My Land - "From accounts of threats made against employees of the U.S. Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management since 2010, published in 2014 by High Country News."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:48 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

My Dad is a Marine who served during the end of WWII and into the Korean War era. His advice for me when I was a kid was that if I ever join the Marines I should train to beat the physical requirements before showing up for boot camp so it's easier and that I should learn how to sew otherwise I was going to end up paying the one guy who could all the time because it comes up a lot more often than you would think. "Learn all the useful practical skills you reasonably can," is good advice for people of any age range or gender.

I neither learned to sew or joined the Marines, but the advice was good!
posted by Drinky Die at 8:07 PM on January 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

"wearing his best tie which is made from a shipping container door," So very good! A fav just wasn't enough. Somexay soon I'll learn bow to make italics with Android.
posted by Oyéah at 8:18 PM on January 7, 2016

fbi reaches for the phone
'get me truckasaurus'

I feel like this needs to be an illustrated children's book.
posted by figurant at 8:28 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wait holy shit is this real?

Morale at Oregon Standoff Collapses After Militia Member Goes AWOL, Drinks Away Donation Money.
posted by emptythought at 9:57 PM on January 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Of course they accuse the Irish guy of being a drunk. I'm beginning to have a tiny suspicion that these armed white militia guys might have some minor personal issues with racism going on.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:08 PM on January 7, 2016

These guys are a performance art troupe, right?

I could go conspiracy theory here and suggest they are government operatives, actors who are drawing our attention from an important issue — but more likely it's something to do with a MFA graduation requirement, like the performing arts equivalent of a thesis. Helluva show, whatever the truth. Lots of surprises and plot twists, never know where they're gonna take it next.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:22 PM on January 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

FFF - there's already folks claiming they're a false flag op.
posted by Archelaus at 10:23 PM on January 7, 2016

Newdaddy , consider what will happen when a mega church goes "tilt"… as is inevitable. Hello Damascus all over again.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:41 PM on January 7, 2016

Of course they accuse the Irish guy of being a drunk.

Say what one will about yahoos like Roy Moore, at least they only trying to move the country back the 1950s, and not the late 1800s, like these shit-kicking yahoos.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:01 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been going with armed insurrection.

I kind of like the idea of calling them "insurgents".
posted by Rumple at 11:20 PM on January 7, 2016

They’re real mavericks, for sure.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:36 PM on January 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Of course they accuse the Irish guy of being a drunk.

Well, they are Mormons.

The old story is that if you go fishing with them, you make sure you have at least two Mormons. If you have just one, he'll drink all your beer.
posted by JackFlash at 12:03 AM on January 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Metafilter: the beardos do not discuss their boners
posted by wallabear at 12:04 AM on January 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

obviously the guns aren't there for fun, they're there to threaten law enforcement and make their political argument more persuasive.

Exactly. If they didn't have (and brandish) guns, the police would have tossed them out in 15 minutes. "GTFO you morons"
posted by msalt at 12:18 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Say what one will about yahoos like Roy Moore, at least they only trying to move the country back the 1950s, and not the late 1800s, like these shit-kicking yahoos.

Moore et al are just more willing to take the journey in steps, but don't ever make the mistake of thinking that they'll stop once you give them a cookie.
posted by Etrigan at 4:35 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

This article by Matt Taibi is a thing of beauty, pointing out the hilarity of these clowns while agreeing that they are indeed dangerous buffoons. Lovely turns of phrase.
posted by leslies at 6:34 AM on January 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Going back on his word to leave if the locals asked him to, Bundy declines to go when asked by the sheriff. Oregon Sheriff Has First Meeting With Armed Federal Land Occupiers
posted by hippybear at 6:36 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

But Bundy declined, saying he and his compatriots were "being ignored again."

Well, then, I guess instead of snacks they simply need a giant neon sign air lifted into the area which blinks repeatedly, "GET THE HINT."
posted by Atreides at 6:44 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

But Bundy declined, saying he and his compatriots were "being ignored again."

I love the way the sheriff didn't even think Bundy was worth the trouble of arresting while they had him pretty much in their custody at the time of that meeting.
posted by mikelieman at 6:56 AM on January 8, 2016

I will pay $5 to anyone to puts up a new "Opening Soon: FEMA Death Camp #1" sign over the road into the preserve hq.

Better yet, put it up when just a few of them are on their way back from a "supply run" and then take it down before they can bring others out to see it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:24 AM on January 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Going back on his word to leave if the locals asked him to, Bundy declines to go when asked by the sheriff. Oregon Sheriff Has First Meeting With Armed Federal Land Occupiers

The funny part of that is that in the "sovereign citizen" worldview that the Bundys are clearly influenced by or part of, many take the position that the County Sheriff is the highest authority they'll answer to. Largely because, supposedly, Sheriffs are local enough that they can actually represent the will of the local citizens.

So there's Bundy with an actual County Sheriff telling him, "Look, the will of the local people is that you go away" and he refuses.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:32 AM on January 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

Well it's not like Ward is his sheriff.
posted by Nelson at 8:00 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

But given that they have automatic weapons

Although the umbrella term of "automatic weapon" can describe a semi-automatic, it's conventionally used to mean fully-automatic, which these are most likely not.

If someone has shown that one of these clowns actually has a full auto gun with them I'd like to see it. Seems like something the Feds would be really interested in pouncing on, after they are cleared out. (Of course a bump stock on a semi-auto will pretty much get you there; these I wouldn't at all be surprised to see)
posted by achrise at 8:15 AM on January 8, 2016

There's a history of Sovereign Citizens under the Posse Comitatus movement ignoring the desires of a sheriff when it conflicts with their interest. They're pretty much hypocrites who hide behind their "movement" so far as it's convenient before falling back on their own arguably selfish or paranoid perspectives.
posted by Atreides at 8:20 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

So there's Bundy with an actual County Sheriff telling him, "Look, the will of the local people is that you go away" and he refuses.

That's easy: the sheriff has obviously been mind-wiped by an Obama drone and re-programmed at a UN black site by a team of climate scientists under the command of Attorney General Lynch in accordance with Agenda 21.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:01 AM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

On a lighter note, Letter from an Oregon Militiaman (youtube 1min13sec documentary style letter reading parody)
posted by phoque at 9:44 AM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

That is a fantastic bit of journalism listing all the seditionists, phoque, thank you.

The sartorial preference for camouflage is particularly striking.
posted by Nelson at 10:01 AM on January 8, 2016

For families where hunting is a pastime, often their cold weather gear is camo due to the crossover of seasons and weather, for what its worth.
posted by Atreides at 10:22 AM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

The camouflage outfits are the fashion accessory.
posted by Nelson at 11:47 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

An interesting mix of carpooling and paranoia: The Oregon Militia Standoff - Rideshare.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:52 AM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Big comment and a bunch of fairly metatalk-ish discussion removed. phoque, I dig the journalistic and non-malicious intent of putting that list together but at the same time it's bordering well into pretty weird territory to stick it in a MetaFilter thread, all reasonable intentions aside. I think if you wanted to put it somewhere else and link to it that'd be an okay compromise. If folks want to talk about the ethics or context of that as a site- rather than current-situation-specific issue, that's something that would make more sense over on the grey rather than here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:19 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Oh, well, look at Ruby Ridge, and all that. They're definitely doing the right thing by not confronting these Oregon people. it would just make more right-wing people angry. They just need to wait'em out." (My lunch companions.)

I'm just still trying to get my head around this. What other crime in American law enforcement is handled in such a way? If it's such a great idea, why can I not think of a single other example of it? If it's such a great idea, shouldn't there be some articulation of it in actual law?

The only reason why no violence has occurred yet is because civilian federal servants have been prevented from going to their place of work. If the bird-banding guy or the carp woman showed up at their office, I'm betting they'd be seriously harmed. I don't see this as a solution, it looks to me like law enforcement failing to do its job.
posted by newdaddy at 12:53 PM on January 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

Infighting Over Oregon Militia Takeover Reveals Deep Divisions Among ‘Patriots’

This kind of internecine bickering is a common feature of far-right organizing, especially in the antigovernment realm. For instance, while far-right mythology now enshrines the Bundy Ranch standoff as an epic moment of victory for their cause in which disparate groups came together, the reality is that the Bundy scene quickly dissolved into nasty factional quarrels, replete with drawn weapons and death threats.

Also one of the neat twists of language is they are sure drones are everywhere and they are about to get droned (jumped or assaulted or killed by drone strike or by government (federal probably, but the new verb is readily expansive)).

[Hey, sorry about that cortex, really didn't think I was going too far off trail but had my head buried in nonsense so may have been uncalibrated. I can't post it anywhere else as the only copy I had was in the comment box and it would take me way to long to redo, plus I don't have anywhere else to put it, so I bequeath it to you or anyone who wants to contact you for it.

Also I noticed The Southern Poverty Law Center uses this disclaimer;

This list was compiled using hate group publications and websites, citizen and law enforcement reports, field sources and news reports.

perhaps appending it to the list (except for the field source thing as none were used) would help things if it were to be put elsewhere.]
posted by phoque at 12:54 PM on January 8, 2016

This kind of internecine bickering is a common feature of far-right organizing
posted by Going To Maine at 1:10 PM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

WaPo: The government closed its offices in Oregon days before the armed takeover due to fears of violence

Also RawStory: Oregon militants brawl as friends beg them to go home: ‘You’re surrounded by informants’
posted by hippybear at 2:33 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Forbes writer and anti-government extremism expert JJ MacNabb's twitter stream is must read right now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:44 PM on January 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Well, shit. Just when I thought they'd been sufficiently mocked and were likely to leave with their tails between their legs:

Idaho militia arrives to 'secure perimeter, prevent Waco-style situation'

I'm not sure how this ends peacefully now. The Sheriff and the Feds have been overwhelmingly patient, but their patience, as others predicted up-thread, has only encouraged more escalation.

An additional note: I find it interesting the headline of that news article calls them a "group" but the URL uses the word "militia"-- maybe the editor got cold feet and dialed the language back at the last second? It's irritating how we have to walk on eggshells around these twitchy thugs.
posted by bluecore at 5:33 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

With beards like those, they should be repackaging artisanal chocolate.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:43 PM on January 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

Yeah, it looks like different factions of armed and unstable people are now congregating (who could possibly have predicted), and the risk of someone losing it in a populated area is growing. I'm starting to suspect that law enforcement may have to intervene to stop the splintering and unstable occupiers from killing each other...
posted by running order squabble fest at 6:10 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

That would be... well I won't say it because that would still be terrible. You'd better believe I'd enjoy pointing it out to the "armed society is a polite society" dumbfucks though.
posted by ctmf at 6:35 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Of course they show up on a Friday afternoon. How many of them will still be there on Tuesday morning? Weekend warriors, indeed.
posted by hippybear at 6:48 PM on January 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have two out of the box plans to end this crisis.

1- I propose we create masks that look like the perps. Then we will wear the masks and disguise ourselves to look like the perps. Wearing the disguises we will torment ravens near the refuge and in the home towns of these perps. Ravens will then attack them on sight, shit on their trucks. Studies at UBC using masks and disguises were able to induce this behavior and it persisted to generations of ravens who had only heard from the other ravens about the bad guy.

2- we will send them a care package of flannel and hats that have been carefully seeded with Rid resistent human body and head lice. These guys are very hairy and will soon be itching like crazy. Once they are sufficiently infested we will send them lice combs so that they can delouse eachother. Primate studies suggest that social grooming triggers the release of oxytocin and serotonin in individuals being groomed. This will curb their anti-social behavior and lead to a peaceful resolution.
posted by humanfont at 7:04 PM on January 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

It's good news for Walmart, I guess.
posted by Artw at 7:14 PM on January 8, 2016

Pizza, paranoia and ‘psychological warfare’: A night inside the Oregon standoff
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:53 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did the Idaho people bring any snacks?
posted by newdaddy at 8:20 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Aww. I feel sorry for the poor biologist who's office they're fucking with.
posted by Artw at 8:27 PM on January 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

If Oregon doesn't label these childish posers as outsiders and intruders fast, they will lose the advantage. There is a reason they chose a state that didn't know them.
posted by Brian B. at 8:29 PM on January 8, 2016

Lose what advantage? The vast majority of Oregonian's have seen these idiots for exactly what they are since they arrived.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:36 PM on January 8, 2016

Lose what advantage?

Public relations. If the nation doesn't already know for sure what the vast majority of Oregonians think, then too many may conclude that Oregon interests are represented by the Bundy's. Any state retaliation may look like betrayal rather than a defense.
posted by Brian B. at 8:45 PM on January 8, 2016

Anyone who has been following this story knows that the locals don't want these people there. Are you new to this thread, or what?
posted by hippybear at 8:50 PM on January 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I'm really having a hard time finding any "Oregon want these morons here" narrative among either my fellow Oregonians (including those from the east of the Cascades) or any mainstream national/international new outlets.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:53 PM on January 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did the Idaho people bring any snacks?

No, but hopefully they'll soon be ringed by a militia from another state, who'll bring juice boxes and lunchables.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:01 PM on January 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I would almost ... just almost go there to bring them all my "special" home cooked brownies.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:31 PM on January 8, 2016

This is a little late to the party, at this point, but I found this timeline of the arson related activities really helpful in understanding what led up to the Hammonds' convictions.

There's even more detail in the summary of evidence presented at the trials which the BLM included when they refused to renew the Hammonds' grazing permits.

I'm in Oregon and unfortunately my social media feeds have too many posts from people whose version of these events seems to come solely from The Conservative Treehouse. I see rural landholders who ought to know better in terms of understanding why to respect fire bans falling all over themselves to make excuses for these people, just because they themselves hate the Federal government and the BLM.
posted by toodles at 11:33 PM on January 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Militants May Have Accessed Government Computers At Refuge
There are four desks in the office, two on each side. Three of the computers were turned on, and in screen saver mode. Papers in the room were strewn about in a disorderly manner.

After Finnicum realized he shouldn’t have allowed OPB to access the room, he quickly picked up lists of names and Social Security numbers by the computers, and hid government employee ID cards that were previously in plain sight.

Shortly after, one of the militant leaders, Ryan Bundy, walked into the room.

When asked about the computers, Bundy emphatically denied any of the work spaces had been touched since the occupation.

“No, we haven’t touched a single personal item. We haven’t touched any of the computers, we haven’t tried to log on — we haven’t done anything. We’re not here to hurt people,” Bundy said, “not even the people who work here.”


OPB Reporter Amanda Peacher responds to language use questions
I was at first referring to the group as a militia in part because, when I asked people in Burns how they referred to these outsiders before the protest, most said "the militia." Flyers posted around town read “Militia Go Home.”

In the first days of the refuge takeover, OPB’s editors referenced the Associated Press stylebook to see which definitions fit best for this unusual group.

and points here
From the Standards & Practices Outbox
Language To Use And Not Use When Reporting About The Occupation In Oregon
posted by phoque at 11:53 PM on January 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I have two out of the box plans to end this crisis.

Personally, the best idea I've had to end the crisis is to convince these guys that the government is going to hit their generators and that they need to bring them inside.
posted by Mitrovarr at 12:24 AM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

OPB Reporter Amanda Peacher responds to language use questions

Armed assailants who take over government property by force and threaten government workers and locals with assault weapons are terrorists, despite what the right-wing idiots at NPR might claim.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:28 AM on January 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Going to turn into a Woodstock for people who want to shoot federal workers, if they wait too long to cordon the place off. HOW many Idaho 3 percenters just joined up? Does anybody even know?
posted by newdaddy at 2:36 AM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

HOW many Idaho 3 percenters just joined up? Does anybody even know?

KTVZ News says at least twelve militia members, but that's probably twenty-four more semi-automatic weapons we have to deal with. The Bundy gang were a dangerous but absurd bunch of grifter idiots, kind of the Keystone Cops of militias ("I thought YOU were supposed to bring the snacks!") but these Idaho 3 percenters are legit crazy. Per JJ MacNab (anti-government extremism expert at Forbes) their name comes from the supposed belief that only 3% of the population fought and won the Revolutionary war, so that's all they'll need to win the Second Revolutionary War, which they're actively trying to bring about.

I don't know how this ends. I don't want to give them the martyrdom they clearly desire, but I also don't like the idea of these armed thugs thinking they're above the law.
posted by bluecore at 5:57 AM on January 9, 2016

bluecore: I have pretty much the same thoughts, even the Keystone Cops comparison. It looks like it's now gone from bumbling dangerous that had a good chance of petering out due to more 'people who have their shit together' dangerous. (relatively speaking of course).
posted by Jalliah at 6:42 AM on January 9, 2016

Charles Pierce, calling it what it is.
posted by newdaddy at 8:47 AM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Of course they show up on a Friday afternoon. How many of them will still be there on Tuesday morning? Weekend warriors, indeed

They have jobs to get to, as real Americans, not like you liberal elitist elites.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:15 AM on January 9, 2016

Let's just fence off a few thousand acres around them and call it Coventry. Anybody who wants can go in at any time, including in lieu of a prison sentence. Nobody gets out (we can air drop the snacks). They can do whatever they like in there, we won't bother them or enforce any laws there. It'll be the perfect, armed, polite, dystopian society they dream of.
posted by bigbigdog at 9:16 AM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

bigbigdog - that a fine plan up until the President's plane goes down in the compound and we have to send some asshole in to rescue him.

Escape from Bend
"This Time They're Out For More Than Just Snacks"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:47 AM on January 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think President Trump can fight his own way out. Worst case scenario, we just send Putin after him.
posted by bigbigdog at 9:52 AM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

You know the thing about Oregonians? They are so fucking polite. I wish these assholes had tried it in Philly like at the goddamned Wing Bowl. It would be drunken louts puking over their assault weapons and yelling about tits

Really every time I call or visit Oregon the politeness freaks me out
posted by angrycat at 10:52 AM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

CSM has an interesting article: Armed Oregon occupation: Is it really about white poverty in the West? "Ammon Bundy says that federal land management practices are pushing more people into poverty, highlighting a serious rural economic problem."
posted by hippybear at 11:15 AM on January 9, 2016

Broke, unemployed and on disability: Here’s how the Oregon militants can afford to play ‘patriot’ games

According to experts who study right-wing movements, militia members barely get by, with some living on government disability checks and the earnings of their neglected wives.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:38 AM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

But given that they have automatic weapons, and talked a lot of smack about "kill or be killed", the response of law enforcement needs to be deliberate and overwhelming. I feel like the cautious, measured response here is exactly the wrong answer. Law enforcement is putting themselves at more and more risk the longer they let this go on. They need to make this something that no one would ever even consider repeating, for their own safety.

Look, I just - one of the things that I'm finding really sad and frustrating about this whole thing is that it really illustrates, on a deep level, just how much one side does not understand each other. Liberals - and I don't say this as a gotcha, or in a mean way - focus on and prioritize safety over freedom in a way that, largely, conservatives do not. You see this in things from childrearing to seatbelt laws, and certainly in opinions about guns.

Normally this is not a big deal, but when you're trying to get the federales to come in with 'overwhelming force', it matters, because you are thinking that if this is overwhelmingly destructive - in lives, in blood, in jail time - that it is going to discourage others. But when you say this, you fundamentally fail to understand the culture of honor that is informing the choices, and you do so in an enormously dangerous way.

I don't know how to explain this if you can't get it, but please trust me when I say that some people want martyrdom - for a lot of reasons. Sometimes, honestly, they don't have a really great life. There's a reason suicide bombers are generally single men. For people who don't have a really great life, and don't think that they will be remembered on their own, the possibility of martyrdom is like catnip.

And the thing is - because of Waco and Ruby Ridge and other fuckups, if the feds start crashing in with flashbangs and such, from a tactical standpoint, they really have to shoot them, because the alternative is to die quietly. There is literally no way of knowing, for them, whether flashbangs are being sent in to pacify them for peaceful arrests, or whether flashbangs are being sent in to lower the risk when feds are shooting. And once they start shooting, the only thing the feds can do is start shooting. And then assuming the feds bring overwhelming force, you have probably at least 20 bodies on the ground.

If there are 20 bodies on the ground in the next week, I am going to buy a house in the deep woods and not come out for the next five years, because I do not want to see how a population which is already convinced the feds want to shoot them like dogs react to the feds actually shooting them like dogs.

The best thing the feds can do is let them get their sandwiches, and just wait until they are bored and go home - and then quietly file charges against all of them, at staggered times, in their various originating states.
posted by corb at 11:50 AM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Corb - I don't know about that. Right wingers, especially of the libertarian variety, are in general full of shit and utter cowards. They might make a big show of how tough they are but they're never going to go into a situation where they can't bully people with an utter lack of consequences.
posted by Artw at 11:56 AM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Chastising a man for having a wife who's the breadwinner is unpleasant.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:58 AM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Eh, not if they're an exploitative deadbeat.
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Right wingers, especially of the libertarian variety, are in general full of shit and utter cowards.

This strikes me as the kind of shit people say when they hate someone and want to denigrate them. Like, I get that you hate their politics and that's totally fine, but saying that someone is an utter coward because of that makes no damn sense. The majority of guys I served with in the military were right wing, which is honestly probably one of the reasons I lean far more conservative than I did when I went in, and they were brave as fuck. Most of their shitkicker friends were too - like, idiots sometimes, but brave idiots who thought nothing of doing dangerous fucking stunts that sometimes got them all fucked up.
posted by corb at 12:03 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Michael Oman-Reagan storified tweets on;
How the Bundy militia created the Harney county "Committee of Safety" to Overthrow Local Government.

Harney County Committee of Safety
For the people, by the people

Safeguarding individual rights against those that will take them is one of the greatest challenges of society. The taking of life, liberty or property is a transgression no matter who is doing the taking. Safety is most likely achieved when neighbors who, respect and love one another, band together in the defense of each others rights.

Prior to the Revolutionary War, Committees of Safety existed in the frontier or wilderness areas where the government did not provide any troops or other protection against Indian attacks. The community got together and built stockades, enrolled militia, commissioned officers, and set watches, all to secure the property and lives of the association members from threats from the savages.

I was going to look up who it belonged to or who set it up, but I doubt I would be surprised as it links to Ammon Bundy defining the magical incantation that makes his fantasy concrete in his mind. A commenter de-spells many of the myths. (Okay I looked) JJ MacNab looked too.

Video journalist Jessica Sherry (youtube 30sec) asks Jon Ritzheimer about Paiute peoples requests for them to leave.
posted by phoque at 12:06 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

But given that they have automatic weapons, and talked a lot of smack about "kill or be killed", the response of law enforcement needs to be deliberate and overwhelming. I feel like the cautious, measured response here is exactly the wrong answer. Law enforcement is putting themselves at more and more risk the longer they let this go on. They need to make this something that no one would ever even consider repeating, for their own safety.

The FBI are repeating the go-slow, deescalatory approach that worked for the Montana Freemen standoff in the mid-1990s, and allowed the Bundy standoff to end peacefully as well. Eventually it is going to backfire and there will be a new paradigm, but this seems to be the current approach, with the feds prioritizing non-violence over quick resolutions or even arrests afterwards.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:08 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Chastising a man for having a wife who's the breadwinner is unpleasant.

There's more to that article than your summary, but better that than to celebrate deadbeats who mooch off a hard-working spouse, so they can go buy guns and ammo and go play games like 10-year olds, instead of being law-abiding adults who contribute equally to a relationship.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:09 PM on January 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

The majority of guys I served with in the military were right wing, which is honestly probably one of the reasons I lean far more conservative than I did when I went in, and they were brave as fuck.

Bravery is shown in different ways. In my experience, the folks who are most right wing seem to be terrified of change and of the unknown and this, in my opinion, expresses itself in their attitudes towards immigrants, anyone who looks different from them, and changing economic conditions.

It is possible that my decisions to try to mitigate risk in my day to day life (for example, by using seat belts or wearing a riding helmet) give me a sense of security that allows me to read from a variety of sources and opinions in order to understand the world around me, to not be terrified of the other and the unknown, that allows me to see a group of refugees as a group of refugees, that allows me to understand that I can (and should) adapt and change to a changing world and not yearn for some past utopia that in fact never existed.
posted by toodles at 12:20 PM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

allowed the Bundy standoff to end peacefully as well.

Well, sort of end. Mostly. Except it seems not, really.
posted by Artw at 12:23 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

That we can tell who's mooching off their spouse and who's contributing to their marriage is problematic, I say as a housewife. There's a lot I dislike about these people but I don't think we need to get all gender essentialist in our criticism.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:24 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bravery is shown in different ways. In my experience, the folks who are most right wing seem to be terrified of change and of the unknown

Sure, but in this case, we're talking about 'are they scared of getting shot to death', not 'are they scared of immigrants'. Unless you're advocating the FBI send in immigrants wearing sheets and making 'Wooooooooooooo' noises.
posted by corb at 12:26 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I suspect they would be remarkably more scared of "being shot to death"/being sent to prison like the criminal jackasses they are if there was a chance of it actually happening, and making it clear it isn't going to happen is the thing that has led to this escalation, not "bravery".
posted by Artw at 12:30 PM on January 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

It seems to me now would be a good time to arrest Cliven Bundy, what with everyone paying attention to the folks in Oregon. It would certainly put some pressure on his kids to end this foolishness.
posted by TedW at 12:41 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I have honestly no idea why they haven't done it already.
posted by Artw at 12:45 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

The majority of guys I served with in the military were right wing, which is honestly probably one of the reasons I lean far more conservative than I did when I went in, and they were brave as fuck.

Since the ratio of people at Malheur who actually served to people who claim to have served seems to be pretty heavily weighted towards the latter, I'm not sure how valuable this information is.
posted by running order squabble fest at 1:03 PM on January 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

corb: If there are 20 bodies on the ground in the next week, I am going to buy a house in the deep woods and not come out for the next five years, because I do not want to see how a population which is already convinced the feds want to shoot them like dogs react to the feds actually shooting them like dogs.

A population that did nothing but wring its hands and say, "damn, mental illness is crazy, right?" with 20 dead toddlers on the ground at Sandy Hook, and collectively shrugs when cops shoot unarmed black people in the back. I don't know if they'll care more for armed thugs who are breaking the law and obviously desperate to be martyrs, but I guess I should stop being surprised and disappointed with the bizarre things some of my fellow countrymen believe. I will say I fundamentally disagree with you on one thing: this isn't a "culture of honor." These are armed thugs who are willing to use violence or the threat of violence to get their way. There is nothing honorable about this at all.
posted by bluecore at 1:16 PM on January 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

The thing that gets me about these guys' wanting the government to release the land is that it's not like they'd be the owners. If the government hadn't claimed this land, someone else would have done it, and it would be in private hands - probably owned by established ag companies, or large farms/ranches. They'd be even worse off, because they wouldn't even be able to do the limited use the government allows.
posted by Mitrovarr at 1:28 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's a Koch brothers show - you better believe if if any land is successfully stolen from the people it's going straight to corporate interests.
posted by Artw at 1:33 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

They'd be even worse off, because they wouldn't even be able to do the limited use the government allows.

Yeah, my late father-in-law was one of those people who think everything should be privatized (to be fair he was really idiosyncratic politically - a conservative world war 2 veteran who loathed the military but this post is already a digression so enough about that ). He used to love to take long drives out on the back roads near where he grew up - until a Rockefeller bought the land and put locked gates on all the roads.
posted by gamera at 1:44 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Look, I just - one of the things that I'm finding really sad and frustrating about this whole thing is that it really illustrates, on a deep level, just how much one side does not understand each other. Liberals [...]

Gah! This has nothing all to do with my politics or their politics or what cultural group we perceive them to belong to. They could wear cowboy hats or berets, they can drive Priuses or Ford F-150s, they can eat bar-b-que or sushi or vegan whatever. It doesn't matter, the law is the law, and if it's different depending on what kind of hats they're wearing (or what religion or politics they are) then it's not really the law that we subscribe to in America. As soon as they start seizing land and threatening people with guns, our response needs to be crystal clear. There is no essential difference between the bird sanctuary they've seized with guns and the post office that I and my wife go to.
posted by newdaddy at 1:55 PM on January 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

> ratio of people at Malheur who actually served to people who claim to have served seems to be pretty heavily weighted towards the latter,

I don't even see why it's relevant. Serving in the military doesn't make you a legal scholar, or a wiser person, or a land-use expert.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:06 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Dying is easy son; living is harder" is a nice way to think about bravery.
posted by angrycat at 2:12 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm always going to be susceptible to a good HAMILTON riff! But I think people are still tragically underestimating people's willingness to die for their cause, and how much bloodshed going in there guns blazing would cause.
posted by corb at 2:15 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I heard an interesting peice on NPR this afternoon on how they enacted gun control in Austrailia. A key lesson they learned was not to be intimidated by the gun nuts. Those campaigning for it, including the prime minister had to occasionally wear bullet proof vests at town hall debates, but they really pressed the issue.
We need to liberate the west from these jerks with a new generation of freedom riders who will go in and stand against these guys.
posted by humanfont at 2:19 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

> I think people are still tragically underestimating people's willingness to die for their cause,

But it's not their cause, it's somebody else's cause, and those people don't want them there.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

But I think people are still tragically underestimating people's willingness to die for their cause, and how much bloodshed going in there guns blazing would cause.

They made their choices when they showed up with guns. If we want to end this without innocent casualties, we can fly a drone strike against them, and then blame it on them starting a fire.

If the people in GITMO don't get due process, why should these terrorists?
posted by mikelieman at 2:23 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ammon's notebook
posted by phoque at 3:04 PM on January 9, 2016

But I think people are still tragically underestimating people's willingness to die for their cause, and how much bloodshed going in there guns blazing would cause.


Whose fault is that? It's not the fault of the fish biologist. It's not the fault of the bird banding guy. It's not the fault of the guy who writes the grazing permits. It's not the fault of the county sheriff, or the Feds that get called in to help enforce the law. If I had to peg it on someone, I guess I'd have to go with ... seditious irrational wanna-be terrorists threatening people with guns? It seems like where the blame goes is pretty clear.

I want to make this perfectly clear. I'm not saying that federal agents should shoot everyone wearing camo or a cowboy hat. I'm saying the law should be enforced. The longer it goes unenforced, the worse the situation is going to get before it is resolved.
posted by newdaddy at 3:11 PM on January 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Ammon's notebook

LOL. Looks like his party's equipment list, nobody brought torches or rations.
posted by Artw at 3:17 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Not wanting to cause the next Waco or Ruby Ridge is eventually going to lead to us not preventing the next Jonestown.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 3:17 PM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Even the Capital Press, the leading right-wing voice of NW agriculture (except on Mexican immigration for which they're pretty much "Open the floodgates! Cheap labor!") thinks these guys are a bunch of assholes.

"Instead we trust the tools provided by the Founders — the ballot box, the legislative process, the courts."

They also go with "yeahadist." This is kind of a big deal. I am so not reading their letter-to-the-editor next week though.
posted by stet at 3:22 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm all for enforcing the law here, but we should do it with some savvy. These guys want to be bullet-martyrs, but we don't have to give them that. Give them a warning that everyone who doesn't leave before tomorrow is going to be guilty of serious crimes, trespass-warm them, and let anyone go who wants to go (search them, though). After that, just engage in good long-range surveillance. Figure out who everyone involved is, and what they're doing.

Let the thing peter out, let everyone go unopposed... and then start to pick them up a month or two later. Fake traffic stops. Fake sweepstake wins. Watch them and get them when they can be gotten safely. Arrest everyone, later, when the situation is safe. Then, charge them for the crimes you recorded with the surveillance equipment and put them away. And hit them with the things they'll hate the most; seize guns and seize land. Try to get everyone with a token felony so they can't own firearms anymore. Charge the ones most involved for the government's full cost, and seize their land to pay for it. Charge the wives who were there (they're adults too, after all). Just make sure the law is enforced so this doesn't happen again. Because, if there's no cost, they'll do it again. They got a platform to speak and they really don't have anything better to do.
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:24 PM on January 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

The OR militants have updated their wish list

FRENCH VANILLA CREAMER.

You cannot make this shit up.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:10 PM on January 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I wonder what the sandpaper is for.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:12 PM on January 9, 2016

Manicure, I'm guessing
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:14 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maybe they're sprucing up the buildings and doing some of those repair jobs one tends to put off.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:18 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


I really feel like this situation gives the lie to all the chest-pounding over the second amendment. Here is a manifest and self-declared threat to the state. Where is the well-regulated militia, whose declared purpose was to answer threats to the state?
posted by newdaddy at 4:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

I wonder what the sandpaper is for.

Given that the Bundys had already sandpapered a homemade tattoo off a young man who was staying with them several years ago, I can only imagine.
posted by hippybear at 4:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

the fuck-??
posted by Artw at 4:27 PM on January 9, 2016

Here's your felony convictions - as if any more were needed...

Militants May Have Accessed Government Computers At Refuge
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:29 PM on January 9, 2016

Given that the Bundys had already sandpapered a homemade tattoo off a young man who was staying with them several years ago, I can only imagine.

Not the Bundys. That was the Hammonds.
posted by zakur at 4:37 PM on January 9, 2016

Hey there is nothing wrong with French Vanilla Creamer. My morning coffee would suck without it!
posted by Jalliah at 4:43 PM on January 9, 2016

wait why are they asking for tampons.
and why do they need oven cleaner
and why can't it be hazelnut creamer
posted by angrycat at 4:43 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's a typo. They meant Freedom Creamer. Vanilla, naturally.
posted by Nelson at 4:44 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

i mean i know tampons can be used in first aid but i'm just surprised to see it out there, just tampons, no explanation
posted by angrycat at 4:45 PM on January 9, 2016

So... They thing a situation might arise where they get full of billet holes but not dead/arrested? That's optimistic.
posted by Artw at 4:47 PM on January 9, 2016

Tampons usually need no explanation. There are women there, right?
posted by futz at 4:47 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

That list is incredible. Re: sandpaper - that grit would be appropriate for rough reshaping and sharpening of tools / knives...

Something that struck me as I was looking through so many of the newer pictures - Lots of black and desert tan, but nobody in snow camo. Or maybe there are and I just can't see them.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:47 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Are there?
posted by Artw at 4:47 PM on January 9, 2016

That list, though.

Money

Really? Subtly tucked into the middle of a giant a supply list? Cute.

Medicine

Pretty general. They can't be more specific?

John Radios Ham

Is this a brand of cured meat?

Markers and Poster Board then much farther down the list Chisel Point Markers

Somebody's going to make some signs!

Aprans 4"

First I thought this was supposed to be "Aprons," but 4-inch ones would be tiny!

Gaming Supplies

PS4 or Xbox One?

Marlboro Red 100's and Marlboro Light 100's

Bummin' cigs. Pathetic.
posted by zakur at 4:51 PM on January 9, 2016

Should send in some mislabeled nicotine free cigs and NA beer. Psychological warfare.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:54 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

That list basically proves that the only thing they came prepared for was a gunfight.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:56 PM on January 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

That list is incredible.

Not really. It's pretty much mundane stuff one would need and want for living day to day in a situation like they are in. What I find incredible is how much of this stuff they didn't bring in the first place in order to at least have a starting stock of supplies. They either assumed it would be easy to get supplies in and out or are lucky that there incompentance at planning logistics is not biting them in the butt.
posted by Jalliah at 4:56 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Are there?

Yes, and children too, apparently. I think one of the rifts in their group was a militia member disagreeing about having women and children there.
posted by bluecore at 5:00 PM on January 9, 2016

Well, that's child abuse added to the list then. Fucking idiots.
posted by Artw at 5:02 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, that's what I meant by incredible - How completely unprepared they were outside of firearms and ammo, in every way possible.
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:05 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

The biggest threat I see which is exacerbated by guns being in the mix is boredom especially once the 'high' of the initial excitement of the start is worn off. The day to day of mundane living in this type of situation is just boring and a lot of drudge work.
posted by Jalliah at 5:06 PM on January 9, 2016

people in GITMO don't get due process, why should these terrorists?

Because two wrongs don't make a right, only a right winger.
posted by humanfont at 5:06 PM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Given that the Bundys had already sandpapered a homemade tattoo off a young man who was staying with them several years ago, I can only imagine.

Oh god, the police report has pictures. Why did I look at this. That poor kid.

The Hammonds did not admit who actually did the sanding, after being asked ten times, but Dusty Hammond claims that Steve did so. "Dwight or Steven admit to many important details of D.H’s allegations of abuse, including the claim that D.H. was forced to eat chewing tobacco and that much of his skin was sandpapered off."

Forget about whether they really deserve five years in prison for arson. They deserve at least that long for child abuse. They don't even show remorse: "Steve Hammond told me that he did not agree with the government getting involved in family matters."

On preview: the Bundys have children with them in the "occupied" building? I'm tempted to say they should be considered hostages.
posted by Rangi at 5:07 PM on January 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

They absolutely should be considered hostages, and child endangerment should go on the list of charges along with God knows what else.

These people need to go into a deep hole and never be let out.
posted by Artw at 5:12 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Are there any reputable reports that there are children among the occupiers? I was under the impression that there were women and children among their supporters staying off of the refuge, but not actually in the occupied property. Admittedly, the fact that everyone has been given carte blanche to come and go as they see fit makes it a bit hard to tell exactly what's going on, but it seems like any confirmation of kids in the self-declared "stand off" zone would change the tenor of reporting by a good bit.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:23 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's at least one woman, who is there full time. The Guardian.
posted by Jalliah at 5:27 PM on January 9, 2016

Or actually at least two. Missed the second in the article.
posted by Jalliah at 5:28 PM on January 9, 2016

It seems like they have two women on site (to do the cooking, natch), but I'm not seeing any suggestion of children. Conservative notions of chivalry aside, I'm not sure "women & children" should be seen as a single demographic block.

Also: I'm not sure if it's been posted already, but this Oregonian article is a decent breakdown of our key players, and hopefully well enough sourced to not get deleted as doxxing.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:43 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Also: I'm not sure if it's been posted already, but this Oregonian article is a decent breakdown of our key players, and hopefully well enough sourced to not get deleted as doxxing.

There are some funny moments in there (along with endless typos, have they fired all of their copyeditors?).

Stettler told the Post that the Malheur occupiers seem to spend most of their time watching Fox News or on the phone with reporters. "These guys aren't hardened militia," he said. "Most of them couldn't even run a mile."
posted by Dip Flash at 6:07 PM on January 9, 2016

I don't believe the O has had copy editors for at least five years.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:11 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

If we're going to keep on applying the ridiculously stupid notion of a "culture of honor" to these immensely dishonorable people, then it's high time we start calling the murders they commit "honor killings." The two killers in Las Vegas who were part of the Bundy gang, the Charleston and Planned Parenthood murderers, all these racist shitbags are all doing this for "honor." So let's give them the same descriptor of the kind of horrors they claim they oppose, if for no other reason that it makes it clear there's actually no difference at all.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:11 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

It seems like they have two women on site (to do the cooking, natch), but I'm not seeing any suggestion of children.

LaVoy Finicum's (the tarp guy) family is there.
posted by sporkwort at 6:19 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Have authorities cut off access to the militants? It seems like they are being allowed to stockpile supplies and additional supporters. I don't understand this at all.
posted by grouse at 6:19 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

They either assumed it would be easy to get supplies in and out or are lucky that there incompentance at planning logistics is not biting them in the butt.

Well, there's no law enforcement presence whatsoever still, so there's no reason why they can't buy all of this crap and bring it back. They're calling for donations to avoid spending their own money, not trying to run the federal blockade. All this crap is presumably being delivered by the federal post office.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:20 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Have authorities cut off access to the militants? It seems like they are being allowed to stockpile supplies and additional supporters. I don't understand this at all.

No. There has been no response whatsoever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's basically an armed LARP.
posted by Artw at 6:22 PM on January 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

It seems like they have two women on site (to do the cooking, natch), but I'm not seeing any suggestion of children.

Several articles have mentioned that they had families visiting on Friday, but I have not seen anything about having kids staying at the refuge.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 PM on January 9, 2016

Have authorities cut off access to the militants?

This is exactly my point. They waited around for a while, and the Idaho 3%ers showed up. They waited some more, and the Pacific Patriot Network guys showed up. The longer they wait, the worse it's getting. That's not my conjecture. You can watch it happening.
posted by newdaddy at 6:27 PM on January 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

LaVoy Finicum's (the tarp guy) family is there.
posted by sporkwort at 6:19 PM on January 9 [+] [!]

Unless I'm mistaken, families are staying offsite (i.e. not occupying a federal building by armed force) and playing a "support" role.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:36 PM on January 9, 2016

The Pacific Network people have apparently left. Also found this but not sure how good the source is.

Ammon Bundy’s gang finally has the armed confrontation they’ve been preparing for. Just not with whom they were expecting.

As of Saturday evening, a group calling itself the Pacific Patriot Network descended on the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Harney County, Oregon, just as Bundy’s group was finishing a press conference. According to The Oregonian, Joseph Rice, a spokesman representing the new group of armed men, is presenting the Bundy militia with “Articles of Resolution,” ordering them to end the standoff and return to their homes.
......
“Ammon [Bundy] felt blindsided,” Todd Macfarlane, an attorney mediating the dispute between the Bundys and the Pacific Patriot Network told The Guardian. “This was not a welcome development. We are trying to de-escalate here – then boom, they all show up.”
posted by Jalliah at 6:43 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I also read in some comments by people who appear to have some knowledge of the area that there is an issue with turning off the power because of the way the grid is set up. That to turn power off at the site would affect other residents on the grid. They did turn apparently turn off the power at a nearby fire station site to stop any temptation of them taking over that too.
posted by Jalliah at 6:47 PM on January 9, 2016

We are trying to de-escalate here

Then disarm, even if you don't end the "protest", and talk about your concerns like reasonable adults in a democratic society. What an infuriating comment.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:52 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, the militia is now surrounded by another militia? Is this going to turn into a militia-tryoshka?
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:19 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, the militia is now surrounded by another militia? Is this going to turn into a militia-tryoshka?

No. Looks like they left.
posted by Jalliah at 7:22 PM on January 9, 2016

Oh wait. I got confused. So many Militas to keep track of. The Idaho guys and Patriot guys are different. Apologies.
Idaho guys still there.
Pacific Guys not there any more.
posted by Jalliah at 7:24 PM on January 9, 2016

Maybe it will be easier to round all these guys up after they congregate in one location.
posted by humanfont at 7:25 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

The supply thing shouldn't be surprising, they got ... public assistance at the Bundy ranch too.
posted by phoque at 8:11 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Welfare kings!
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:53 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Somebody mail them some medibles.
posted by buzzman at 11:35 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

What a gong show. If you were writing a novel and used this story, critics would eviscerate you for using an inane, too-stupid storyline. Yet here we are, watching a third-rate bozo eruption play itself out. Daft reality, too improbable for fiction.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:43 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Slate:
How american news would report this if in another country.
posted by adamvasco at 6:03 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Letter from an Oregon Militiaman
posted by madamjujujive at 6:07 AM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Islamic State tries to use Oregon takeover to turn Americans against their government
posted by madamjujujive at 6:14 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jon Krakauer on the regional fundamentalism directly influencing the Bundy's and their movement.
posted by Brian B. at 7:56 AM on January 10, 2016

The "Culture of Honor" mentioned by corb above refers to specific concepts that are not entirely self-evident from the constitution of the phrase. I feel some commenters missed that, and that is a shame.

In short, when there's no law or third set of eyes in the vicinity, you need to make sure you have a reputation for not backing down from perceived slights or exploitation.

Wikipedia links: Honour --> Cultures of Honour and Cultures of Law and Culture of Honor (Southern United States)

A choice but not entirely representative snippet on the possible origins of southern honor culture:

Herds, unlike crops, are vulnerable to theft because they are mobile and there is little government wherewithal to enforce property rights of herd animals. The theory is that developing a reputation for violent retribution against those who stole herd animals was one way to discourage theft.

posted by tychotesla at 10:34 AM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Here’s a list of supplies that members of the Oregon militia occupying an Oregon refuge are asking people to send them.

" gaming supplies" is on the list. Send them a copy of Diplomacy.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:44 AM on January 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

tychotesla - sounds backwards to me. These guys don't live in the Wild West, making it necessary to wave guns around and threaten people, rather they want to wave guns around and threaten people making it necessary to pretend they live in the Wild West.

They should keep their bullshit power fantasies in videogames like normal people.
posted by Artw at 10:52 AM on January 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Backwards from what? Are you saying that the armed occupiers (who have, lets remember, ties to militias, ranchers, and organized racism) are trying to access a culture that they were not already a part of?
posted by tychotesla at 11:39 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

A population that did nothing but wring its hands and say, "damn, mental illness is crazy, right?" with 20 dead toddlers on the ground at Sandy Hook...

I'm afraid that it's even worse than that. These people think that what happened in Sandy Hook is just a hoax.
posted by NoMich at 11:42 AM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Because it gets in the way of their stupid dangerous fantasy. It's all about living in a dream world for these suckers.
posted by Artw at 11:46 AM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sure. A culture of honor is regressive. Like conservative attitudes concerning sex, it causes the problem it tries to fix. It is presumably a factor in how they were raised though, so regardless of it being silly it may be critical for diagnosis.
posted by tychotesla at 12:02 PM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The only part of the "culture of honor" that is applicable to the real world around them is that they won't back down, in order to safe face. The culture of honor is only really present in their own fantasy world, within their little group. It has no applicability outside of it - there's nobody else to safe face with. Even other militias have said they shouldn't be there. It's a delusional culture.

Of course, that doesn't make it any less applicable within their microcosm, and it informs some of their decisions. As they come to terms with reality, it's harder to maintain that.

It does fit in to the idea of this being a LARP fairly well, though.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:06 PM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well it isn't a lark.
posted by Oyéah at 12:20 PM on January 10, 2016

"Eggs (needed badly)" and "French vanilla creamer." They meant to do a nice brunch this morning.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:22 PM on January 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Did anybody figure out what they mean by apran? When paired with the 4" It just doesn't seem like a typo. Google isn't helping, although I did learn that there is such a thing as a "apron gun holster".
posted by achrise at 12:40 PM on January 10, 2016

I was hoping it was a typofication of "a pan", and that they wanted to make some muffins.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:46 PM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Arrgh - Save face. One thing I have in common with these guys - I really need to pay more attention to typos.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:55 PM on January 10, 2016

NYTimes: The Larger, but Quieter Than Bundy, Push to Take Over Federal Land. "a growing Republican-led movement pushing the federal government to hand over to the states millions of acres of Western public lands — as well as their rich stores of coal, timber and grazing grass."
posted by Nelson at 12:59 PM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, it's not like these two things aren't linked - it all goes up to the Kochs.
posted by Artw at 1:07 PM on January 10, 2016

Man, what an opportunity for some horrible company to get their name in the news. Big company-branded semi rolls up and proudly unloads enough stuff for these guys to live for 3 months. The outrage would be breathtaking, but the knee-jerk outrage backlash (e.g. Chick-Fil-A, Duck Dynasty dude) might be worth enough cash short-term to make it worth it. Get ready to cry "government retaliation" with a GoFundMe or whatever.
posted by ctmf at 1:33 PM on January 10, 2016

Make it Chipotle.
posted by spitbull at 1:49 PM on January 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

BTW How is FOX covering these guys?

(I have no stomach for looking myself)
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on January 10, 2016

Maybe giving the awesome power of an Oreo Phone will backfire on Nabisco?
posted by achrise at 1:51 PM on January 10, 2016

i would love to have a chat with these guys. what do they think, for example, of Thoreau's "Civil Disobedience"? Why is it more honorable to make coffee creamer requests than to spend some time in a jail cell?

I mean I'm in a charitable mood but I have absolutely zero understanding of what their moral underpinnings are. Somebody mentioned Jonestown upthread. That was some horrific cult of personality/ideology mindfuck.

Please Jebus no more Jonestown, but what are these guys about? Do they have no sense that requesting not only coffee creamer but a specific flavor of coffee creamer makes them look like lumps animated suet, in terms of where they are on the Admirable Martyr scale?

My latest idea is to relocate Burning Man to Burns. I don't know anything about Burning Man aside from the fact that I am too poor to consider going, but they do have those cool mechanical displays plus it seems like everybody is on drugs. I guess that would be bad for the birds living there but I have a feeling the two groups would cancel each other out.
posted by angrycat at 4:12 PM on January 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oregon Live: Oregon standoff: Roseburg state legislator ignores local warnings, visits protesters
posted by hippybear at 4:14 PM on January 10, 2016

Fox news have this arsehat reporting.
posted by adamvasco at 4:20 PM on January 10, 2016

Considering the amount of nudity at Burning Man, I suspect Oregon is a little too cold to do it right.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:32 PM on January 10, 2016

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Nevada in January is also too cold.
posted by hippybear at 4:34 PM on January 10, 2016

There was also a Las Vegas-area elected official who joined the conversation by phone, Grasty said. The names of the other elected officials weren't immediately clear.
posted by Artw at 4:45 PM on January 10, 2016

I mean I'm in a charitable mood but I have absolutely zero understanding of what their moral underpinnings are.

they're ranchers who are trying to make an honest living from it and tyrannical government regulators from out east are doing everything they can to wreck their livelihoods and their communities, in an eventual plot to force them off their lands

civil disobedience? - that's not how we got our freedom from the british, buddy

admirable martyrs? we ain't no martyrs, we're gonna WIN!!

vanilla creamer - we're entitled to that - just like we're entitled to use of the land around us that we don't own

it's hopeless, of course - they don't have a clue about how dependent they've been on the government or how that dependency has strengthened the government they now want to rebel against

you're not going to get much in the way of political or moral insight from people who have zero insight into the circumstances of their own lives
posted by pyramid termite at 4:50 PM on January 10, 2016

They know how dependent they are on the federal government. That's why they are out protesting. The government rules they depend on have been changed to no longer exclusively favor their interests. So rather than accept that our democratic society gets to decide what to do with our land, they are demanding the government go away and give them the land.
posted by humanfont at 5:47 PM on January 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

LeVoy Finicum wrote a novel! He's the one with the tarp.

Not to spoil anything, but it begins in the dangerous America that was inevitably created after a sweeping national gun buyback program. Albuquerque is in flames as a result of roving gang attacks. The protag is a young woman fleeing into the western hills, lamenting how her peace-loving mother had trusted the false security of a gated community and turned in the family gun, which had of course left said mother helpless against four professional-style intruders/rapists in her own home and tragically dying while attempting to escape. There are footnotes, naturally, that explain in detail how quickly a particular gun can reload.

I'm onto the second chapter now, which introduces the male protagonist by immediately veering into a discussion about inflation and the Federal Reserve.
posted by mochapickle at 8:00 PM on January 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Also I just noticed the dedication:

Dedicated to God
The Author of Liberty

posted by mochapickle at 8:20 PM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you skip ahead does Jesus show up?
posted by Artw at 8:22 PM on January 10, 2016

Not so far. But the second chapter, the male protag is describing how valuable blankets, camping gear, and canned food are in this new world order. He and his family are fleeing in an Escalade (of course) with every canned good from their house. Seems like ol' LeVoy should have thought to plan his own stay in Oregon similarly prepared.
posted by mochapickle at 8:26 PM on January 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

There's a perfectly normal Safeway in Burns where they could buy all the supplies they want. It appears that they want other people to buy them stuff instead, which sounds more like "culture of mooching" than "culture of honor" to me.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:17 PM on January 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

The cosplayers have arrived!

I mean, it's all cosplay really, but this dude put in extra effort.
posted by Artw at 9:32 PM on January 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Mochapickle, thanks for taking one for the team. You are indeed a selfless hero!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:08 PM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't think you have to dedicate something to God

I think he'd see that coming
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:15 PM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

So, sounds like LaVoy Fincum is no Hakim Bey…
posted by Going To Maine at 10:34 PM on January 10, 2016

FRENCH VANILLA CREAMER.

What? They didn’t ask for “FREEDOM-VANILLA CREAMER”.
posted by blueberry at 11:16 PM on January 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd really like to hear from someone with inside experience to chime-in and give us some idea of what the Feds might be thinking in leaving these buffoons to set-up a homestead and come-and-go as they please. The longer they're left alone, the more entrenched they become, making any eventual removal that much harder and, possibly, violent.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling the Feds have absolutely no idea what to do, and have decided to do nothing at all, hoping the bullies will simply go home after awhile.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:42 AM on January 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd really like to hear from someone with inside experience to chime-in and give us some idea of what the Feds might be thinking in leaving these buffoons to set-up a homestead and come-and-go as they please.

The Feds are remembering Ruby Ridge, where a couple of possible sawed-off shotguns mutated into a rallying cry for an entire generation of the extremist right.

The longer they're left alone, the more entrenched they become, making any eventual removal that much harder and, possibly, violent.

There's also the possibility that the longer they're left alone, the more bored, cold, hungry, and tired they become, and they just leave on their own. It doesn't appear that they're really digging in or improving their positions to the point that removal will be any harder, if it ever does come to that.
posted by Etrigan at 8:11 AM on January 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I Stand with Linda Sue Beck: The Attack on Science at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
posted by Artw at 8:53 AM on January 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

Great article Artw. I hadn't seen this posted yet but we can hope that the cold does the job for persuading these buffoons to go home.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 10:04 AM on January 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd really like to hear from someone with inside experience to chime-in and give us some idea of what the Feds might be thinking in leaving these buffoons to set-up a homestead and come-and-go as they please.

I think Etrigan's right - they don't want another Ruby Ridge or Waco. Here's a Vox article on the subject that I don't think has been linked yet.
posted by gamera at 12:16 PM on January 11, 2016

There are undoubtably political considerations. How will a seige play out politically in terms of motivating right wing voters in the fall election? Will news coverage affect the President's agenda for his final year in office or the State of the Union. How do state and loca leaders want the Feds to act? What are the views of republican committee chairmen in congress?
posted by humanfont at 12:29 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Arresting people in transit isn't without risks either. Prior incidents with people in the similar-but-not-same tax protesting / sovereign citizen / oath keeper / etc. movements include Oakland, West Memphis, Walnut Creek, and more.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:37 PM on January 11, 2016

During the conference, Burns Paiute Tribal Council member Jarvis Kennedy pointed out a double standard inherent in the way the ranchers are being treated. He said, "I wonder if it was bunch of natives that went out there and overtook that, or any federal land. Would they let us come into town and get supplies and re-up?"...

When [CNN] correspondent Sara Sidner asked, "Why do you think the response is different this time?" Kennedy replied, "Because they're white. That's it. That's the bluntest I can be; It's because of their skin color."
posted by a lungful of dragon at 4:40 PM on January 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

I really hope President Obama has something useful to say at his speech tomorrow night, about why the FBI won't go in and make arrests. After this, and the abortion clinic and church shootings, positive and clear action against right-wing (white) terrorism is long past overdue.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 5:18 PM on January 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Eggs (needed badly)"

Somebody doesn't watchCutthroat Kitchen. Never go on your standoff without eggs!
posted by stevis23 at 6:00 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

A data breach by militia at the Malheur Wildlife National Refuge has led the US Fish and Wildlife Service to ask some of its employees to relocate from their homes until the situation is resolved, sources told KOIN 6 News.
posted by sporkwort at 6:34 PM on January 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Great.

This is why you don't let fucking terrorists camp in government offices.
posted by Artw at 7:22 PM on January 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

New York Times covers the fence removal.
posted by Death and Gravity at 7:46 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

sporkwort - that IS scary!

Someone most definitely should be going to prison at some point.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:51 PM on January 11, 2016

Executive director Garrett VeneKlasen and conservation director Todd Leahy of New Mexico Wildlife Federation aren't fooled by tarp. (youtube 35sec)


Libertarian Fairy Tales: The Bundy Militia's Revisionist History in Oregon
There were many schemes. It was possible to buy land that had been surveyed as "swamp" from the government at very low prices, for example, if you promised to drain and use it. So sometimes French and others would flood the land first, rendering it swampland so as to lower the price. Sometimes they didn’t even bother. In one of the most notorious bits of fiscal legerdemain, French purchased 50,000 acres of swamp land in 1877 from a previous owner who had certified it as swamp, before purchasing it, by technically crossing it in a boat—a boat drawn by mules. The regulatory agencies eventually caught up with these schemes, but by the time they did, most of the land had already been distributed among a very small number of hands.
posted by phoque at 7:52 PM on January 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

When [CNN] correspondent Sara Sidner asked, "Why do you think the response is different this time?" Kennedy replied, "Because they're white. That's it. That's the bluntest I can be; It's because of their skin color."

Yup. Pretty much.
I don't think anyone has any problem imagining the response if these chuckleheads were anything other than white.

I'm so disgusted by the non-response by the Feds. Sadly, the only thing this soft response is going to accomplish is encouraging similar actions elsewhere. The message being communicated by authorities seems to be "C'mon in boys. Help yourselves to the land. You're all the right color. No problems."
posted by Thorzdad at 8:16 PM on January 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This has definitely gone beyond the LARP level. From sporkworts link:

> There are continual reports of law enforcement officers and community members being followed home; of people sitting in cars outside their homes, observing their movements and those of their families; and of people following them and their families as they move around the community.

> As this issue has developed over the past week, employees and their loved ones have reported a number of uncomfortable incidences in which unknown individuals from outside our community have driven past slowly or idled in front of their homes, observing the residents and their activities.

> Additionally, several employees told officials they have been confronted by self-identified militia members while the employees were grocery shopping, running errands and just trying to lead their day-to-day lives.

These guys are clearly going to keep escalating until they get a response. This shit needed to be dealt with already, when it was simply contained in the building - It's not going to get better from this point on its own if it's spreading from there.
posted by MysticMCJ at 8:45 PM on January 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

I actually think the cops should treat every protest like this one if they know what's good for them. Give the protesters food and blankets and posterboard to make signs. Surround them with very official support. Send in politicians to give extemporaneous speeches on whatever the protest is about. Turn it into a circus. Sooner or later people will realize they look ridiculous and go home.

Embrace, extend, extinguish.
posted by miyabo at 8:46 PM on January 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, as sides from the getting to commit whatever acts of vandalism and intimidation they see fit against the people of Oregon with no chance consequences - that not kind of sucks.
posted by Artw at 9:18 PM on January 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also, just because it can't be said enough - Fuck these guys.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:20 PM on January 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Oregon occupation planned for months by Ammon Bundy and Montana militia leader
posted by hippybear at 10:31 PM on January 11, 2016

Oregon occupation planned for months by Ammon Bundy and Montana militia leader

they keep using this word

I do not think it means what they think it means
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:29 PM on January 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

"Did you remember to pack the guns?"
posted by Artw at 11:49 PM on January 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

I dunno, the fact that they've gained access to computers that require two-factor authentication (if the second link in sporkwort's link is true) means that either they're more devious than previously thought or they were incredibly lucky. Did a bunch of employees, in an en masse violation of federal policy, leave their cards at their desks with their passwords written down? Were they coerced into giving them up? Were the cards stolen? Why didn't BLM lock access from those accounts to local machines and/or servers?

On the other hand, they're adding a bunch of very serious crimes to the long list they've already committed to access information that will likely end up being of little to no actual value to them. Harassing the BLM employees is almost assuredly going to get some of them jailed by the local fuzz at some point unless directed otherwise, and it's definitely going to involve federal charges somewhere down the line.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:05 AM on January 12, 2016

Did a bunch of employees, in an en masse violation of federal policy, leave their cards at their desks with their passwords written down?

Probably, yes. I highly doubt a building that tiny had keycard controlled access, why would it? So someone probably kept their card at their desk, hopefully locked up, but a standard issue filing cabinet or desk drawer isn't really hard to brute force. And it doesn't take "a bunch of" employees, it takes one 60 year old scientist who can't remember the 14 different passwords they have to use on a daily basis. I guarantee at least one person in that office had their password written down on a post it note.

Harassing the BLM employees is almost assuredly going to get some of them jailed by the local fuzz at some point unless directed otherwise, and it's definitely going to involve federal charges somewhere down the line.

You'd like to think that, but there's zero evidence that anything they've done will result in any kind of consequences when the last time these same guys were allowed to threaten federal agents with machine guns and walk free. At this point I don't think there will be any response whatsoever until they escalate to actual violence. The government has conceded that they own the place for now, and apparently are prepared to cede them the whole county.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:32 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

With luck, once this is finally over, the feds will determine that these guys didn't plan this, but they did conspire to do it.
posted by Death and Gravity at 5:57 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Harassing the BLM employees is almost assuredly going to get some of them jailed by the local fuzz at some point unless directed otherwise, and it's definitely going to involve federal charges somewhere down the line.

You mean like they frog-marched papa Bundy off to prison...

oh. wait...
posted by Thorzdad at 6:28 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

On the other hand, they're adding a bunch of very serious crimes to the long list they've already committed to access information that will likely ...

Gah! This is sedition, just as surely as John Brown's raid was. The only difference is that they didn't steal government arms - and that's because they brought their own. We don't need to tiptoe around on the Internet, going "Oh, they burned a sign! Oh, they drove a truck!" The only reason why they haven't shot federal officers yet is that not has actually tried to apprehend them.
posted by newdaddy at 6:35 AM on January 12, 2016

High Country News has a write-up on some of those involved with the standoff. They link to this profile of Ryan Payne.

More specifically, he came to believe that slavery never really existed in the United States and that African Americans in the antebellum South "didn't view themselves as slaves." He came to believe in "an effort by some Jews to control the world." He came to believe the founders of the United States intended for the states to act as sovereign countries. He came to believe taxes are a form of "legal plunder." He came to believe names are spelled in all-caps on driver's licenses because U.S. citizens are actually "corporate entities." He came to believe U.S. courts are actually foreign admiralty courts. He came to believe that "in most states you have the lawful authority to kill a police officer that is unlawfully trying to arrest you." He came to believe when a newborn child's footprint is made on a birth certificate, that child is effectively entering a life of servitude to the U.S. government, which borrows money from China based on that child's estimated lifetime earning potential.

The Oregonian article that hippybear linked to above portrays Ammon Bundy and Ryan Payne as the two people most responsible for planning the takeover.

I know it's become abundantly clear by this point, but these are not what you would call well-balanced people.
posted by compartment at 7:56 AM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

That's all fairly standard sovereign citizen drivel. They do love the idea of admiralty law, and the magic constitution invalidating properties of gold fringe on the flag.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

He's crazy - but you give the devil the benefit of law anyway. Unless you are comfortable with the cops shooting everyone who occupies a building - or a park.
posted by corb at 9:13 AM on January 12, 2016

Sure, that's all anyone is asking. The same level of enforcement against these armed militiamen terrorizing an entire community as was deployed against unarmed protesters across the nation.

But as of yet there's been literally no "law" to speak of. At all.

I wonder what could be the difference.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:33 AM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Benefit of the law for some, martial law for others.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:38 AM on January 12, 2016

This has nothing to do with occupying buildings. People occupy government buildings as a form of protest all the time. It happened in Wisconsin not too long ago. It happened in Baltimore over Freddie Gray. This has to do with them showing up with a ton of military weaponry and saying things like 'kill or be killed'.

The reason why we have a national holiday for Martin Luther King, and memorials for him, and streets and highways named for him, is that he led a group of people who has legitimate grievances, and made a deliberate choice to use non-violent protest. And to some degree he made it work.

We can't allow the common understanding to become that, if you show up with enough angry guys with guns, you'll win the argument. There are more guns than people in America! That's a recipe for disaster.
posted by newdaddy at 9:41 AM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Corb - I am at a loss to how you think these shitty assholes could be pandered to any more than they already are. Ammo drops?
posted by Artw at 9:42 AM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

He's crazy - but you give the devil the benefit of law anyway.

You mean like arresting people who break it?

Literally the only reason these guys haven't been arrested is because they're waving guns around. Do explain, please, how and why that's okay. If all you need to flout the law is to brandish weaponry there is no law.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:44 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'll take 'ignoring cause and effect with a side of false equivalence' for $500, Alex.

I think hardly anyone wants the cops to just open fire on them. The only people who seem to be suggesting that should happen are mostly just pissed that the cops are treating these terrorists with kid gloves while actual peaceful protests are met with extreme prejudice. Personally I just want the cops to do their job and attempt to arrest them. If that results in these jackasses opening fire to avoid getting arrested that's on them and at that point if the cops open fire back well that's what you get for attempted murder of a cop just doing their job. Even then I'd hope the cops showed restraint and just cut off their supplies until they turned themselves in.
posted by Green With You at 9:48 AM on January 12, 2016

Seems like if the cops did that, more 'militia' asshats would show up with more guns. If these shitbirds don't go home of their own accord soon, this is going to get much, much worse before it gets better.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:51 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Start nabbing them when they go out for supplies or to the bar or to do an interview.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:54 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

> He's crazy - but you give the devil the benefit of law anyway.

If you are just looking at what he has to say, sure.

However, when you rifling through federal personnel files, stalking and threatening employees, ripping up fences - all while toting lots of guns and constantly proclaiming that you aren't afraid to use them - I don't see how that falls within the "benefit of law."

This goes well beyond occupation. If they were just camping out there, I don't think anyone would really have a problem with it. When the people you claim to actually be standing up for don't even want you there or condone your actions, that's already a bit problematic. Destroying federal property is a bit more problematic. Doing all of this, plus threatening and stalking people is beyond unacceptable - even without weaponry.

This goes well outside of the law, and to say otherwise or to simply refer to them as "occupying a building" is showing willful ignorance of what is actually happening here.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:59 AM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

Literally the only reason these guys haven't been arrested is because they're waving guns around.

And are white.
posted by Etrigan at 9:59 AM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Well yeah, that too. I figured it'd been said enough here that there was no need to belabour the point. I guess some people need reminding.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:01 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jon Ritzheimer doesn't appreciate supplies. (facebook video 1min25sec)
posted by phoque at 10:14 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I am so delighted that they are getting dicks in the mail. Your federal postal service, people!
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:22 AM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

They don't appear to have hacked into the computers files (youtube approx 30sec description)
posted by phoque at 10:23 AM on January 12, 2016

From High Country News: I have a lot in common with the Bundys. Here's what I'd like to say to them.:

I'm a lifelong rural Westerner, and I believe that if I were to talk with them, we'd most likely find we have a lot in common. There's the way our lives were shaped by the land, for instance. I was born in Nevada, and I grew up and now live in southwestern Idaho. Though my family worked as carpenters, we lived on small farms where we raised cows and grew hay for the winter. Like the Bundys and many of their allies, I come from hard working, blue-collar folks. ...

Then I'd say: "You are carrying firearms and threatening to commit violence if you don't get your way. You say you want this to be a peaceful protest, but in the same breath you warn that you will fight and die for your cause. You bluster, trying to provoke a response, all the while using the media to protect you and further your cause.

"You are abusing your rights as an American. There are legal ways to change systems if you feel that they aren't working. I have heard nothing from you about your responsibilities, only demands about what you want, though ultimately, what you want is to control a resource that belongs to me and to every other American. Public lands are our birthright, and you have no right to commandeer them for your own purposes.

"Frankly, I don't want my land – which includes all the federal land in the West – turned over to people who behave like you. I want to be free to hunt, fish, hike, ride my horse, my mountain bike or all-terrain vehicle, to picnic, camp, and to bird watch on the nation's vast tracts of federal ground, and I don't want to have to ask for your permission to do so.

posted by dialetheia at 10:37 AM on January 12, 2016 [33 favorites]

Fucking right. Fuck these land thieves and their corporate masters.
posted by Artw at 10:43 AM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

They don't appear to have hacked into the computers files.

To be clear, I wouldn't credit these maroons with the ability to hack into a rotten log, but it's possible, as above, that people who were not expecting their remote bird sanctuary to be occupied by the militant wing of eating paste might have left their login credentials, ID cards or even their work phones in the office. And claiming that you are not doing a bad thing while doing that very bad thing is pretty much the modus operandi of this gang of maroons, and indeed maroons across the globe. So.

Saddest thing for me in that video is the picture of the government employee's kid in a ladybird costume on the desk. Second saddest is the bargain-bucket Kilo Ren in the video saying in the comments "i have a pistol to shoot my head if something happens". That's what you travelled to the middle of nowhere for? To spray blood and brains over a picture of someone's kid in a ladybird outfit that someone else is going to have to clean? That's your brilliant strategy?
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:47 AM on January 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

Here's what private land ownership of federal lands would look like.

Fuck that.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:50 AM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yeah, I'm not really sure the speed in which this has descended to suicide-bunker territory is really helping the case of those wanting to just wait them out indefinitely.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:52 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

running order squabble fest owes me a new keyboard for "the militant wing of eating paste".
posted by Etrigan at 10:53 AM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

These guys probably talk like that if they're going down the road to buy a coffee, but then again I wouldn't trust them to do that without accidentally shooting themselves or a passerby either.
posted by Artw at 10:55 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

This goes well beyond occupation. If they were just camping out there, I don't think anyone would really have a problem with it

Well, I would. This isn't a campground. There are plenty of places designated as campgrounds if they want to go have a camp out. This is a bird sanctuary and there was actual scientific work being done there. As a link up thread mentioned, scientific research is an actual use of the land, even though the Bundys don't see it that way because it doesn't line anyone's pockets.
posted by bluecore at 11:16 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

They don't appear to have hacked into the computers files.

Eh? All the guy says is that he used a bootable linux flash drive to use the BLM computer and their network. While "hacking" is a pretty nebulous term, it's pretty clear that he has circumvented the access controls governing the use of that computer and its network and is using those resources without proper authorization. I'm pretty sure that gets you into felony territory with the CFAA.
posted by peeedro at 11:16 AM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

They've pretty much stated that going through documents is one of their goals - at this point the benefit of the doubt hinges more on competence than intent.
posted by Artw at 11:19 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oregon judge plans to bill Ammon Bundy up to $70,000 a day for security costs to county
posted by Artw at 11:43 AM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Has that judge previously ruled that Br'er Rabbit is to be thrown into that ol' briar patch?
posted by Etrigan at 11:45 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oregon siege: Vandalism, intimidation of civilians on the rise, sheriff says
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on January 12, 2016

Oregon siege: Vandalism, intimidation of civilians on the rise, sheriff says

Gee. If only there was someone the residents could call for help. Someone empowered to protect them and deal with the vandals...
posted by Thorzdad at 11:57 AM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

> This isn't a campground.

Perhaps I should clarify, although it should be clear that I'm not saying they should just be able to camp out whenever the hell they feel like it, as if it was a campground.

If they wished to carry out a legitimate peaceful protest - in good faith - and remained camped on the territory while they did so, I would feel that would be well within the norms for political protest. No matter how much we may or may not agree with them, I don't think it's something that would be largely viewed as a problem, and I think forcibly arresting them or removing them would be not OK. If we are not OK with that, then we shouldn't be OK with any sort of camping / occupation as a form of political protest from anyone.

Of course, none of that is what is happening here.

A couple of years ago, I'd think that they would be more likely to enact some change and get what they want that way than they would by taking up arms -- but unfortunately, the Bundy ranch has given some historical precedent to the presence of armed seditionists being a very effective way of getting what you want when it comes to making use of public lands.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mod note: One comment deleted. corb, I'm going to ask you to step away from this.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Now that's not to say the cops shouldn't be doing anything - for example, the tactic of letting people come and go at will is ridiculous. What they need to do is state to returning occupiers, "The park will be closed tomorrow to all non-media, so we won't be letting anyone back in if they leave." And then just wait. Let people out, don't let people in. And don't, like, bristle about it. Just set up some fucking roadblocks and lay out some caltrops on the sides of them.
posted by corb at 12:50 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ok, shit is getting weirder - The kangaroo court is beginning. From jjmcnabs feed:

> Big announcement from Malheur. "Judge" Doucette has arrived and the common law grand jury is now going to convene.
> The militants will now put officials like Sheriff Ward on trial for treason.
> "Judge" Doucette is not a real judge, of course.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:51 PM on January 12, 2016

Summon the Grand High Wizard! The Wizarding Tribunals have begun!
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:53 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Ah, they're going full Petoria.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:58 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, man.

Shit's not just getting weird. It could get seriously, dangerously real. Some of these Patriot™ types actually go out and attempt to "arrest" anyone found guilty in these "courts." I forget the exact term they use for their "sheriff", but it's a real threat. In the past, they've gone so far as to invade a real court proceeding. This could become hostage-taking.

They also start filing property liens against everyone and anyone they determine to be guilty or aiding the guilty.

This is what you get for not nipping this shit in the bud.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:58 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Big announcement from Malheur. "Judge" Doucette has arrived and the common law grand jury is now going to convene.
> The militants will now put officials like Sheriff Ward on trial for treason.
> "Judge" Doucette is not a real judge, of course.

I thought I was familiar with Sovereign Citizen nonsense but this is a new one to me. What is a common law grand jury? On what basis are they charging someone with treason? How do they square a trial in absentia with the Constitution? (Other than 'poorly,' I mean)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:00 PM on January 12, 2016

wait so now it's french revolution cosplay? confused
posted by the phlegmatic king at 1:01 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Hey! They're also holding a town hall meeting Friday!
posted by Thorzdad at 1:04 PM on January 12, 2016

The fake judge isn't anything to laugh about. There are crazies who will act on the "orders" of said judge and that might very well include finding Sheriff Ward guilty of treason or something to that ilk. I had a coworker once who received a phone call from a confused sheriff's deputy, "Oh, hey, so, ah, I got a piece of paper from a gentleman, who claims it's an arrest warrant for you?" (She kept it in her desk to show folks later, finding it both kind of scary and amusing.)

I pray the feds aren't waiting and watching for someone to be shot before having the 'justification' to come crashing down on the party.
posted by Atreides at 1:08 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

What is a common law grand jury? On what basis are they charging someone with treason? How do they square a trial in absentia with the Constitution?

The SPLC has a crash course in sovereign citizen "common law":

At some point in history, sovereigns believe, the American government set up by the founding fathers — with a legal system the sovereigns refer to as "common law" — was secretly replaced by a new government system based on admiralty law, the law of the sea and international commerce. Under common law, or so they believe, the sovereigns would be free men. Under admiralty law, they are slaves, and secret government forces have a vested interest in keeping them that way.

This is how they go about the "grand jury" process.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:08 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

The location has yet to be determined. All are invited to attend, Finicum added.

Surely, this...
posted by tonycpsu at 1:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I pray the feds aren't waiting and watching for someone to be shot before having the 'justification' to come crashing down on the party.
posted by Atreides at 4:08 PM on January 12 [+] [!] Other [7/7]: «≡·

I think it's pretty clear they are. There's a political dimension to this that the feds are both worried about a repeat of Waco, but also terrified of the headlines on FOX screaming "OBAMA'S JACKBOOTED THUGS ARE HERE" from now until the election and galvanizing support for the Republican nominee.

That probably all goes away if these wackos fire first.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:10 PM on January 12, 2016

This is how they go about the "grand jury" process.

what the actual fuck
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:13 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hey! They're also holding a town hall meeting Friday!

Because what could possibly go wrong with a bunch of heavily-armed, obviously crazy people who just announced they're planning to detain officials who have been amazingly accommodating and peaceful to them?
posted by zombieflanders at 1:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a political dimension to this that the feds are both worried about a repeat of Waco

Yes, well, I think it's crystal clear that these Yeehadists intend to push their world view as far as they can, with the idea that the only way they will stop is the US Government bows to their demands and hands over Federal lands.

Barring that, they want another Waco. They'll take another Ruby Ridge, for that matter.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:19 PM on January 12, 2016

Under admiralty law, they are slaves, and secret government forces have a vested interest in keeping them that way.

I suddenly wonder if Waterworld is some kind of unending dystopian nightmare for these people, where the hero rejects the laws of the water to find freedom on dry land. Meh.

Incidentally, Bill Clinton taught Admiralty Law at the School of Law at the University of Arkansas. I wonder if during the 90s if any of them latched onto that factoid.
posted by Atreides at 1:39 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

As long as they stick to their guns, so to speak, they are forcing the government into one of two options: "become murders or wait for us to murder someone."
posted by charred husk at 1:40 PM on January 12, 2016

Under admiralty law, they are slaves, and secret government forces have a vested interest in keeping them that way.

Admiralty Law? I'm not a slave, I'm a Pirate King!
posted by mikelieman at 1:44 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well the sovereign thing explains why they're so interested in the boring documents kept by a nature reserve; they're looking for the secret code that invalidates the conventional land ownership.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:45 PM on January 12, 2016

Admiralty Law? I'm not a slave, I'm a Pirate King!

I'm a Martian!
posted by Artw at 1:47 PM on January 12, 2016

I'm a Martian!

Not until you grow food!
posted by mikelieman at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Admiralty Law? I'm not a slave, I'm a Pirate King!

I'm a Martian!

The Bird Sanctuary, that's where I'm a Viking!
posted by Floydd at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Well the sovereign thing explains why they're so interested in the boring documents kept by a nature reserve; they're looking for the secret code that invalidates the conventional land ownership.

I'm tempted to suggest they try the Konami code.
posted by Archelaus at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

As long as they stick to their guns, so to speak, they are forcing the government into one of two options: "become murders or wait for us to murder someone."

I think they're going to keep escalating until someone calls their bluff. At which point, well, I'm *fairly* sure they know that if they actually start shooting their bubble of protection pops, but these are unstable and incompitent weirdos so I wouldn't rule out them accidentally kicking something off.

And if some wandering militia nut job decides to have a crack at Sheriff Folksy Wisdom in the meantime I don't know what happens then.
posted by Artw at 1:51 PM on January 12, 2016

Well the sovereign thing explains why they're so interested in the boring documents kept by a nature reserve; they're looking for the secret code that invalidates the conventional land ownership.

I think you're talking about Bird Law.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:52 PM on January 12, 2016

Not until you grow food!

For alleged aggriculture activists I really doubt they'd be any good at that.
posted by Artw at 1:53 PM on January 12, 2016

I'm guessing that's a typo, but "aggro-culture activists" has a nice ring to it.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:56 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think they're going to keep escalating until someone calls their bluff. At which point, well, I'm *fairly* sure they know that if they actually start shooting their bubble of protection pops, but these are unstable and incompitent weirdos so I wouldn't rule out them accidentally kicking something off.

I tend to think they know exactly what they're doing, despite appearances. If they kick something off, it won't be an accident. It's easy to joke about their insane world view, but these people are deadly serious. They believe wholeheartedly every bit of the Sovereign Citizen stuff.

I just hope the Feds have troops hidden in the area, standing-by to respond at a moment's notice. But, if all they have is a handful of FBI agents and the local sheriff and his deputies...well...I dunno...
posted by Thorzdad at 2:02 PM on January 12, 2016

I don't think there's any reason not to believe them to be both deadly serious and clownishly incompetent and unhinged. It's really not a good combination, and I feel bad for everyone having to deal with it.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

This could escalate quickly
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:12 PM on January 12, 2016

You all are talking like they're an organized group of a single mind. We should be so lucky. The real threat is one of the seditionist folks is also a trigger-happy nutjob and starts something all his own. From what I've read they're running an open camp there with random people joining out of solidarity. What happens if one of those armed good ol' boys is a bit too hot under the collar?

Another scary option is FBI agent provocateurs in the group. Certainly happened plenty of times with leftist protest groups. So far the feds have taken a low key approach here, and I'm reluctantly in favor of that.
posted by Nelson at 2:12 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

We're the lords of the sea! Just not of the actual sea.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:54 PM on January 12, 2016

It's clear that they aren't an organized group of a single mind. What I worry about the most is crowd behavior - You get that many people who don't all necessarily have the same ideas, other than they are armed and ready to fight feds, and bad shit will happen.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:00 PM on January 12, 2016

I hate to say it for the Sheriff's sake, but the militia attempting their "sovereign citizen" bullshit of arresting and trying Sheriff Wade for treason may be the crystal clear crime they need to put these terrorist thugs away for long time. I'm sure the charges have mounted (trespassing, vandalism, unlawfully accessing government computers) but kidnapping? That's a 25 year mandatory minimum. It also puts these chubby mall ninjas in the crosshairs of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, at which point their weekend warrior army cosplay fantasies will come to a screeching halt. I truly hope this ends peacefully, but I also look forward to seeing them being led in shackles into a SuperMax prison. I guess they might end up in the cell next to El Chapo, so they've got that going for them... which is nice.
posted by bluecore at 3:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also, I know rationality isn't really part of this, but how the fuck does sovereign citizen even work if nobody is from or represents the region in question?
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:10 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Would they even try to arrest the sheriff? It looks like their normal MO is to try to get the local sheriff to arrest whomever they've convicted and when that doesn't work, they convict him or her and work their way down the chain of command to meter reader or dog catcher second class.

I wonder what would happen if one of the "guilty" turned themselves in to these guys and demanded the rights available to prisoners under the Constitution and Geneva Convention. "Sorry, Larry, but we need to take your bunk for the prisoner. Also, he seems to have clogged the toilet again so you need to get on that too."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:12 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Reducing people to pink list is a lot easier and convenient when they don't have hostages, mind.
posted by Artw at 3:12 PM on January 12, 2016

Would they even try to arrest the sheriff?

My guess, which is totally uninformed and made up, is they want to impeach him for not carrying out their orders, and declare themselves the new sheriff. That's how they go from Cosplay Judge and Jury, to Cosplay Law Enforcement. After all, if they were going to limit themselves to the judicial branch, they wouldn't have needed all those guns.
posted by ryanrs at 3:24 PM on January 12, 2016

Power for the Loons: A small electric co-op considers what to do with the Loons at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge
Harney Electric, for all its territorial expanse, isn’t a very large company. In fact, the members read their own meters. The company audits meter readings once a year, but for all 12 months of the year the meters are read by the customer/members and not by designated meter readers.
posted by phoque at 3:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Another good article from the Southern Poverty Center (as linked by jjmcnab yet again): Sovereign Citizen Kane [PDF]
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Feds will probably wait for a clear request from the local community to take a more agressive response. I anticipate that in the next week they will issue the request.
posted by humanfont at 4:27 PM on January 12, 2016

Also, I know rationality isn't really part of this, but how the fuck does sovereign citizen even work if nobody is from or represents the region in question?

It's a state. Of mind.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 4:42 PM on January 12, 2016

It's a federal facility. The FBI already has primary jurisdiction, they don't need the local sheriff's permission. And any response at all would have to be "more aggressive" by definition.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:42 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

The guy who was using BLM computer supports ISIS, OPB confirms.
posted by phoque at 4:44 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clearly an antisemitic japanophile with a modicum of computer skills is exactly what we needed thrown in the mix.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:56 PM on January 12, 2016

The guy who was using BLM computer supports ISIS, OPB confirms.

In fairness, he also likes Hitler.
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

yeah holy shit some brain bleach is needed
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:59 PM on January 12, 2016

Another tarp falls Backcountry Hunters & Anglers (youtube 2min54sec)
posted by phoque at 4:59 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't think the Sovereign Grand Jury and "Judge" Doucette are gonna be too happy with those guys, destroying a Sovereign Tarp like that.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Permission isn't at issue. The Feds want to isolate these idiots and make sure local leaders are on board.
posted by humanfont at 5:41 PM on January 12, 2016

I don't think the Sovereign Grand Jury and "Judge" Doucette are gonna be too happy with those guys, destroying a Sovereign Tarp like that.

Eh, I don't think that sign will stay exposed for long. Them boys are probably working on a new tarp right now, this time with gold fringe sew onto the edges for extra constitutional (or extra-constitutional, perhaps) magics. #supertarp #admiralty #sovereignfringe
posted by Anoplura at 5:43 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Them boys are probably working on a new tarp right now, this time with gold fringe sew onto the edges for extra constitutional (or extra-constitutional, perhaps) magics.

I don't think you understand their magics. The fringe signals that it's admiralty, the bad sovereign-usurping shit that makes slaves of us when they take our baby footprints. They are the opposing good guys with guns to restore our fringeless flags of "common law" which lets us do whatevs we wants, like the law should.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:54 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have to say that I was marginally aware of the sovereigns before all this shit, and it was not at all clear during the Cliven Bundy fiasco that sovereigns were involved. With these paper chasing fanatics in the mix letting Cliven off without prosecution was a really bad idea because it's going to give them the idea that they are oh so much closer to the magic legal formula that unlocks their "freedom." This is probably why they are pulling this stunt in Oregon. They seriously think it will work. These are not normal people subject to normal motivations. They honestly think that the right combination of paperwork and secret signals will make the law slink off and leave them be, and the outcome of the first Bundy fiasco was almost perfectly calculated to make them think they were almost there.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:59 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think it almost goes without saying that the level to which the government has used kid gloves with various militia movements and anti-government groups (all coincidentally made up of white dudes who are real 'muricans) has been a really bad idea. It has allowed insanity like the sovereign citizen movement to fester and grow like a cancer, and this shit with the Bundy clan will not be the last nor the worst of it.
posted by tocts at 6:11 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Obviously the way to end this standoff is to have one random dude surreptitiously wave a gold-fringed admirality flag behind their podium, thereby turning their sovereign presser into a Secret Maritime Presser. Then a reporter needs to ask, "Secret Admiral, how long do you intend to occupy this Sea Base?"

Ammon Bundy will turn around, see the gold-fringed flag, and immediately realize that all his actions are now taking place under the authority of Maritime Law. He looks around even more. Oh my god. There are gold fringes on all the trucks and guns and tarps. Somehow the magical golden flags have even transformed his pocket-sized Constitution into a miniature printed copy of United Nations Agenda 21.

Worst of all, their Common Law Grand Jury will have become a Secret Maritime Court.

In a delicious twist, his attempt to warn others will be his undoing. There on the podium, he will shout out loud: "It's a trap!"

This is the magic legal incantation that completes his transition to admirality. Also it causes him to look like a giant squid-person.
posted by compartment at 6:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

There on the podium, he will shout out loud: "It's a trap!"

Not, "It's a tarp!"?
posted by NoMich at 6:46 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

oh my god, it's Calvinball for backwoods lunatics
posted by indubitable at 6:47 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

From the link above about the Harney County Electric Coop: However, this time the Bundy’s aren’t ripping off the federal government – they’re ripping off the customers of a small electric cooperative.

Take that, Socialism!
posted by sneebler at 6:57 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Daily Cost Of The Bundy Occupation
posted by homunculus at 7:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

WOULD YOU PLEASE STOP SENDING US DICKS
posted by Countess Elena at 7:52 PM on January 12, 2016 [15 favorites]

Someone please send them erotic cakes. Preferably dick-shaped. Wouldn't want them to starve.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:38 PM on January 12, 2016

I'm OK with allowing them to continue receiving packages as long as there's a "dicks only" directive in place.
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would prefer a law enforcement solution to a sexual harassment solution, but at this point, anybody willing to do anything at all to get them out is better than the current nothing response.
posted by Drinky Die at 10:35 PM on January 12, 2016

anybody willing to do anything at all to get them out is better than the current nothing response.

The National Guard would be a good choice, since any action would be ordered by the governor of a "sovereign" state and their authority is legitimate in the invader's worldview. It would avoid the sought-after conflict with the feds, and avoid the anti-government propaganda waiting to exploit the confrontation. The problem is that the local congressman is publicly wavering on the problem, which perhaps indicates a fragile political landscape that is unable to muster a state-wide effort to follow through on the local response to reject the takeover.
posted by Brian B. at 11:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Would it matter what a local legislator thinks, if the National Guard is under the purview of the state's executive branch, i.e., Governor Kate Brown?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:25 PM on January 12, 2016

The National Guard would be a good choice, since any action would be ordered by the governor of a "sovereign" state and their authority is legitimate in the invader's worldview.

Could you better explain why we should be accepting these terrorists' ridiculous premise? I'm afraid that one went over my head.
posted by indubitable at 4:53 AM on January 13, 2016

The National Guard would be a good choice, since any action would be ordered by the governor of a "sovereign" state and their authority is legitimate in the invader's worldview.

Except, the National Guard, while being state-based, is tied directly to, and often serves, the Federally-run military (National Guard units are used in combat deployments) So, I would imagine the Patriots™ would find that the Guard is an illegitimate military force, and defend themselves.

Hell, I'm pretty sure Sovereigns™ would find something in their tortured worldview to claim state and local governments to be illegitimate, too. They've shot enough local and state police to make one believe they're simply against anyone claiming any authority over them. Even an unfortunate cop stopping them for speeding.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:35 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think that County Sheriff is the highest valid office in right-wingnut org charts... So, even within the fantasy the National Guard's authority would not be recognised.
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:56 AM on January 13, 2016

So...Maybe if the Sheriff deputized the entire National Guard?

It's a moot point, though. In this specific case, the local Sheriff is conveniently being tried for treason by the Sovereign Grand Jury, and will no doubt be found guilty. So, they've obviously found a way around their recognizing the Sheriff as being a valid power. Try and convict him.

Then, I would imagine, declare one of their own as Sheriff. And, from there, arrest all elected officials as well as any residents not on-board with the coup.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:13 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Could you better explain why we should be accepting these terrorists' ridiculous premise? I'm afraid that one went over my head.

I would argue that using the FBI to clear them out with actual violence is accepting the terrorist premise, which is a public relations battle within a territorial dispute over local authority. The mere threat of the National Guard involved would deflate their premise, and it would be unwelcome invaders versus actual people from Oregon, demonstrating how weak their argument is. The FBI can pursue their arrests down the road, in any state.
posted by Brian B. at 7:03 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh good, their "constitutional attorney" has shown up.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:15 AM on January 13, 2016

...which is a public relations battle within a territorial dispute over local authority.

Except, none of these bozos are from the local area. That alone should negate any of their claims to the land.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:29 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oregon State Defense Force (Wikipedia). Note that this branch of the Oregon Military Department was recently suspended, though temporarily.
posted by Brian B. at 7:36 AM on January 13, 2016

Mod note: Comment removed; if you want to beef about moderation, do it in MetaTalk, where you already did. And I get that everybody's hype about Deadwood coming back but this is the second time in a week I've had to say that that's not actually a good excuse to start throwing "cocksucker" around on the site.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:43 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

Brian B.: I would argue that using the FBI to clear them out with actual violence is accepting the terrorist premise, which is a public relations battle within a territorial dispute over local authority. The mere threat of the National Guard involved would deflate their premise, and it would be unwelcome invaders versus actual people from Oregon, demonstrating how weak their argument is. The FBI can pursue their arrests down the road, in any state.

They believe a "Constitutional Sheriff" is the highest law of the land, but have conveniently ignored that the actual Sheriff and the actual people of Harney County have asked them to leave and that they're the actual invaders here, so I don't think there's any chance you'll get them to admit, "The National Guard? You know what? You got us on that one. Welp, pack it up, boys." Anyone who opposes them is labeled a traitor and tried in their "Constitutional court", the Governor included, so any action by the National Guard or the Oregon State Defense Force will just be labeled as traitorous too.

Additionally:

The Oregon State Defense Force has no training facilities, and as such must recruit from prior military members in order to maintain a level of professional training, with the exception of professionals who may offer skills needed by the Oregon State Defense Force, who may be exempted from the prior service requirement. Soldiers in the ORSDF are required to attend drills with their unit to refresh and expand upon training, generally once a month

I'd rather they use the FBI HRT, who trains every day for this kind of thing, than have units that train once a month and might kick off something accidentally.
posted by bluecore at 7:43 AM on January 13, 2016

The Oregon State Defense Force has no training facilities, and as such must recruit from prior military members in order to maintain a level of professional training...

Unfortunately, a lot of "prior military members" tend to sympathize with "patriot" groups. I suspect activating the OSD might very well backfire.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:48 AM on January 13, 2016

Metafilter: do it in MetaTalk, where you already did

WOULD YOU PLEASE STOP SENDING US DICKS

The video was so dramatic! And that's the same #daddysworeanoath guy! I'm going to now imagine him tearfully writing a letter home to his children about how there was so many dicks.
posted by numaner at 8:31 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]

>Oh good, their "constitutional attorney" has shown up.

Haven't clicked on the link yet but I'm just guessing here it's not Obama ??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:49 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm going to now imagine him tearfully writing a letter home to his children about how there was so many dicks.

Hopefully read in the style from Ken Burns' The Civil War.
posted by indubitable at 8:49 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

What Do the Oregon Ranchers Really Believe?
A field guide to their radical, diverse—and often contradictory—ideologies.

Found from this New Yorker article The Far-Right Revival: A Thirty-Year War?

On a side note, while I was looking for this guy;
-Capt. Moroni"I didn't come here to shoot I came here to die."
-Gladiator at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
-Illegal ATV ride goes ahead "Country music played, and American flags, protest signs, and flags emblazoned with the slogan “Don't tread on me” were seen in abundance. One sign, held by Provo resident Dylan Anderson, proclaimed that federal lands should be transferred to the western states.
“I was in Bunkerville with Ryan (Bundy) under the freeway,” Anderson said. “I'm in it with him, this is my fight, too.”
-Couple at Recapture Canyon protest from this article.
-Same protest and captioned picture at bottom of this article.

I found this article about the prosecution approach taken there;
Defense calls just one witness in trial of Utah’s Recapture Canyon riders; closing arguments Friday
Much of the four-day trial's testimony has focused on the writings and interviews of the accused conspirators before the May 10 ATV rally — both in traditional media and on Facebook.

Prosecutors submitted into evidence a 2014 opinion piece Lyman wrote for the Deseret News before the protest. At the time, Lyman wrote on his Facebook page that he was disappointed the newspaper did not publish his invitation to the protest.

U.S. attorneys also used recordings from San Juan County Commission meetings to show Lyman talked about the protest as a public official.

And they included an interview with KUTV Channel 2, when Lyman told a reporter, "I'm only breaking the law from a federal standpoint."

But Thursday's testimony — nearly three hours — focused on Facebook postings about the ride and who "liked" which postings.

The prosecution's conspiracy case was built on an investigation by BLM special agent Brian Loftin, an expert in Internet communication and social media.

Loftin's testimony Thursday detailed numerous Facebook postings by Lyman and Wells, Wells' blog articles critical of BLM's Recapture management and an interview with Lyman that Wells posted on YouTube a few days before the ride.

The postings invited the public to participate in the ride on routes BLM closed to keep tires off Recapture's archaeological sites. Wells reposted one of Lyman's posts under a picture of Uncle Sam declaring, "We Need You!!!"

Perhaps letting them blather is the decided procedure, because nothing else seems to be organizing or ramping up.

One more;
Why don't feds try to oust Oregon occupiers?
Clint Van Zandt, a former FBI chief hostage negotiator, likened Ammon Bundy and his occupiers to one of the Republican presidential candidates. They have said they're camped out until the federal government releases two Harney County ranchers imprisoned for setting fires that damaged federal land and until the refuge land gets into local hands.

"The group out there is a little bit like Donald Trump," said Van Zandt, a former negotiator and supervisor in the bureau's Behavioral Science Unit during his 25-year career with the agency. "They do things for attention. They do things so the media pays attention."
posted by phoque at 9:30 AM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]

The Oregon Militia Is Picking the Wrong Beef With the Feds
posted by Artw at 9:50 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait, how do you worship both common law and the Constitution?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:59 AM on January 13, 2016

They don't worship common law. They worship "common law" (see the SPLC's guide).
posted by ogooglebar at 10:09 AM on January 13, 2016

This article is a fun read;

Bundyland Two devout Mormon brothers have created a fantasy camp for commandos in Eastern Oregon.
posted by phoque at 10:16 AM on January 13, 2016

Rancher: 'I didn't know anything' about Bundy entering property, destroying fence
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Oregon Militia Is Picking the Wrong Beef With the Feds

I get the feeling even if the Bundys know about how the agriculture corporations are driving ranchers out of business, they're happily rallying against the Fed for an eventual seat at the corporate table. They might be fools, but they probably know enough to try and get on a certain side, especially because where they are, that's usually the winning side.
posted by numaner at 11:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Amanda Preacher of Oregon Public Broadcasting tweets : "Occupiers said a "very important person" is going to make an announcement at 11:30"

That's 3 minutes from now people - who will it be? Get your guesses in early!
_{I'm guessing not Obama.}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:27 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I like longshots, so I'mma go with Palin.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:29 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah. Palin sounds most probable. My big longshots are Donald Trump or Antonin Scalia.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:30 AM on January 13, 2016

I dunno, if I had to pick a famous nutjob with little to no understanding of how the constitution actually works, and who probably could use the publicity, I'd go with Kim Davis.
posted by tocts at 11:31 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think I had a tiny political orgasm just thinking about Palin being there tonycpsu
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:31 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Of course, these guys aren't exactly big on women who won't stay home and in the kitchen, so Palin or Davis may not be welcome.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Anna Maria Wilhelmina Hanna Sophia Riezinger-von Reitzenstein von Lettow-Verbeck, Private Attorney in Service to His Holiness Pope Francis"
posted by phoque at 11:34 AM on January 13, 2016

From A.P. again - Occupier Brand Thornton blows a antelope horn (ed. a "Shofar") while reporters wait. "It's for God to intervene."

So it's God then - OK I didn't see that coming.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:35 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

"Anna Maria Wilhelmina Hanna Sophia Riezinger-von Reitzenstein von Lettow-Verbeck, Private Attorney in Service to His Holiness Pope Francis"

She totally knows that guy from the Vanity Fair FPP from a couple days ago.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:38 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well 16 minutes after that first Shofar blow and no news about the "very important person's" announcement In fact, no news at all!

I'm forced to assume the whole Divine Intervention thing did not work out as they had expected.
_{this is why we Jews only blow those things once a year}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:43 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

As an aside, I appreciate that if I google "sovereign citizen insanity", the top link is "Top 10 tips for prosecuting a sovereign citizen", written for the Texas District & County Attorneys Association. Fun reading, if a tad depressing in that it has to exist at all.
posted by tocts at 11:44 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

guys, was it the horn of Gondor

is Aragorn involved
posted by cortex at 11:46 AM on January 13, 2016 [15 favorites]

Wait, they're blowing the chauffeur and are pissed off about getting dildos? I'm so confused....
posted by mikelieman at 11:47 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]

A Wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:47 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why didn't Obama just send the eagles to Burns?
posted by drezdn at 11:50 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

SEND MORE SECOND BREAKFASTS
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:52 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]

PO-TA-TOES
posted by numaner at 11:53 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Occupier Brand Thornton blows a antelope horn (ed. a "Shofar") while reporters wait.

Man, if they carry on with that they are totally going to alienate their unicorn support.

CALLBACK
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:07 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

> is Aragorn involved

I need to know this because of reasons. Google Maps tells me I can be there by dinner.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:07 PM on January 13, 2016

They're taking the dildos to Isengard!
posted by tocts at 12:20 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]

It is the Last March of the Dongs!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:23 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's a magical dildo that glows blue when Feds are close.
posted by bluecore at 12:25 PM on January 13, 2016 [9 favorites]

Rancher upset that militants destroyed his fence
posted by humanfont at 12:34 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well is been an hour since they announced a special "very important" speaker and then blew the Shofar - and what has transpired? Nothing. Nada. Bupkis. Not a word from ANY local media sources or twitter on what the VIP said. Radio silence.

Well what did they think would happen after they announced that "It's for God to intervene." and then blew a religions icon? _{(please no catholic school jokes - this is serious!} We Jews do this once a Season and it's by appointment only and we didn't set the appointment time!

What did they think would happen after they summoned the Divine just like that? Even with offerings of French Vanilla creamer, I'll tell you what - imagine somehow getting the phone number to the White House and then calling Obama and complaining about the drones. Imagine the consequences and then multiply that by a thousand!

But even if a Divine "Candygram for Mongo" moment did not happen what were these guys thinking? You can't just announce this and then - nothing ?? ! Have they no social media awareness? Are there no Geeks in Conservative Gilead?

Oh wait - there's one ...
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:35 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

The VIP turned out to be Burns fire chief Chris Briles.
posted by phoque at 12:42 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

So disappoint :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:43 PM on January 13, 2016

I'm also trying to figure out if he was retired ... so it may be even sadder.
posted by phoque at 12:44 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, congratulations, I guess, on finding the one local resident not telling them to fuck off.

I'm guessing he's a resident?
posted by Artw at 12:47 PM on January 13, 2016

The Bundys Have A Vision For The West, and You Aren't Included
posted by adamvasco at 12:53 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]

Just stepping back and looking at this whole thing since it started - it's unbelievably surreal. While the majority of the US, the community, and ranchers do not support them, more people keep showing up, and weirder shit keeps happening.

We left the world of the rational a long time ago in this whole thing - They clearly are in their own little world where only their rules apply, and only their authority. There is literally nobody whose authority they will recognize who isn't part of this whole occupation.

I can't help but fear that this is really symptomatic of our present political culture within the states. The amping up of political rhetoric, vitriol, and lies has been feeding more energy into fringe groups for a while now - Look at the birther movement, for example. Still a thing - despite all evidence - and the man who founded it is presently the lead contender to be the Republican nominee for the top position in the country, with rabid support.

I'm not going to draw a direct line between these guys and the Republican party as a whole - I may not care for their politics, but I think that is a bit of a stretch. However, I am willing to draw a direct line between the Tea Party as a whole and this group. The whole sovereign citizen movement really just seems like a logical conclusion of their desire to eliminate government and taxes - Honestly, the only real big differences between the Tea Party and this movement is the whole thing about YOUR NAME vs Your: Name, and the insanity that theres some multimillion dollar deposit made when you are born that you have some access to. If you pull those two things out, then these guys have just jumped to the end-game, and otherwise aren't that different.

We have seen a rapid buildup of extremism in the public spotlight - and that's just what we see publicly, there's more seething and growing there that isn't so visible. The Bundy Ranch was one event, this event is another - and we can likely expect to see many more of these. I'd imagine that's guiding part of the response - the desire to temper further growth. I can understand how coming in aggressively could not only have a bad outcome here, but it could fuel further extremism within the US. Unfortunately, inaction - like we see here, and as we have seen at the Bundy ranch - plays into their beliefs and their goals as well. On one end is the fringe feeling like it has to fight a war, and on the other is the fringe feeling like they are achieving victory.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:55 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]

Matt Taibbi weighs in
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:07 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

Republican party as a whole - I may not care for their politics, but I think that is a bit of a stretch. However, I am willing to draw a direct line between the Tea Party as a whole and this group.

I don't. There is no distinction between "the Tea Party" and "the Republican Party" and there never was. The "Tea Party" was always the same exact group of 24-33%ers that were rabid George W Bush supporters to the bitter end. The only thing that "the Tea Party" ever was was a rebranding to wipe off the stink of W from the Republican Party after his disastrous presidency. Did they take on a life of their own after that? Sure, but everything that came out of the "Tea Party" movement since its inception has direct roots in right wing, explicitly Republican, ideas and subtleties dating back to Goldwater, the John Birchers and looking back further, to Republican opposition to the New Deal.

This is a Republican created mess, and it always has been. They have explicitly and implicitly fed and nurtured the ideas these idiots stand for in service of electing Republican candidates, for decades. If they've lost hold of the tail of the tiger, let's remember who let the tiger out of the cage in the first place.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:12 PM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sensible adult Republicans who smoke pipes and look like 50s dads and care about things like science or logic or concrete financial realities - Republicans in any way connected to reality, are pretty much a dead species now. It's a party of delusional crazyfucks now, as evidenced by their internal leadership struggles.

Maybe there could be a preserve for Rational Republicans them somewhere, but the Bundys would probably want to burn it down.
posted by Artw at 1:17 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

Maybe there could be a preserve for Rational Republicans them somewhere, but the Bundys would probably want to burn it down.

Nah. They'd just file a dozen liens against the property.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:32 PM on January 13, 2016

I think a lot of blame for this can be laid on President Chester A Arthur
posted by numaner at 1:34 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Leave the A-Man out of this!
posted by Atreides at 1:46 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

What did they think would happen after they summoned the Divine just like that? Even with offerings of French Vanilla creamer, I'll tell you what - imagine somehow getting the phone number to the White House and then calling Obama and complaining about the drones. Imagine the consequences and then multiply that by a thousand!

This is what the great LORD says: Let the wildlife refuge go, so that the scientists and birders may use it. If you refuse to let it go, I will plague your whole ranch with dildos. The watering holes will teem with dildos. They will come up into your feedbins and your bedroom and onto your bed, into the houses of your ranch-hands and on your people, and into your ovens and kneading troughs. The dildos will go up on you and your people and all your media coordinators.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:03 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]

has Matt started photoshopping dildos into pictures of these guys yet, btw?
posted by indubitable at 2:17 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

These guys are a bunch of jokers - the more you look into them the more absolutely laughable they are - laughable except the guns thing of course. These are the kind of guys who need to be told not to run with scissors.

So the new guy in town is a self appointed judge who is presumably going to ... judge stuff (???) ... with no legal school training what so ever. So I googled him up based on recent news articles (where is is totally doxxed correctly identified ) - and I will avoid the doxxing fiasco discussion here by keeping it nameless - so no worries. So it turns out this people's court wannabe "owns" a computer training business in Denver - an I.T. "business" without a single website or web presence whatsoever. His linked in profile says the last actual job he had - save for his "business" was in 1985. His bio on Linkedin credits himself with being the original designer of the PC bus at age 23. No really - it does. Ummm... no college listed. I know - I was as surprised as you are now.

Well he's a judge now and I guess he'll be judging stuff this week.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:33 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well he's a judge now and I guess he'll be judging stuff this week.

Great tumblr idea - pictures of "common law judges" judging stuff. Eat your heart out, Kim Jong-Un!
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:45 PM on January 13, 2016

Taibbi really nails it with this:

There's no doubt that these people are dangerous, but their ridiculousness is a huge part of who they are. Incidentally, this is true of groups like the actual al-Qaeda, too, led as they are by men in beards and Rick-Perry-style "smart glasses" who play at being religious scholars and intellectuals when in fact they are the kind of people who are afraid of cartoons and lie awake at night wondering if it's permissible to play chess with a menstruating woman. Just because a person is dangerous does not mean he's not also absurd.

It's more fun than getting a job, right? We interperet written law and religious text to our advantage! We vote ourselves rich! And never get sent to bed!

I can see only one difference between these folks and the folks who ride around the middle east in toyota hiluxes with semi-automatics akimbo: in the middle east, the kids in the truck are in their teens and 20's.
posted by valkane at 2:58 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here's further info about the visiting judge (it's from the Oregonian, which might make it journalism, but if this is too doxxy for whatever reason the mods are welcome to delete this).
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:59 PM on January 13, 2016

They have a website now ! Its called "Defend Your Base" (yes,really) and it's coded by that ISIS supporter guy whom the other Constitutional Defrauders Defenders have no problem with for some reason.

Now you will think it is a parody - because it's so very bad - but it is not. It is a real thing. Direct from the compound as it were. The only thing missing on that train wreck of a site are the flaming skulls gifs from 1999 but from the looks of things that should be in there by tomorrow.

One of the three links on the main page is " List of Serious Injustice" .
Such Patriotism. So Constitutional.
_{also all your base belong to us - yeah I went there}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:21 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

al-Qaeda means The Base. We call that one Muad'Dib.
posted by valkane at 3:26 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

Buy Book!
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:27 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, the "list of serious injustice" consists of unexplained links to the Wikipedia pages for Mark Rich and Jeffery Epstein, an International Business Times story about Israeli complaints over US weapon sales to Saudi Arabia, and a youtube video about the sinking of the USS Liberty during the 6 Day War. No list of charges, no demands, no explanation of how any of those things remotely relates to federal land use policies.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:31 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

there's a BP oil disaster quality to this, in that it's an expression of toxicity that must be stopped but nobody can figure out quite how
posted by angrycat at 3:32 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

Now you will think it is a parody - because it's so very bad - but it is not. It is a real thing. Direct from the compound as it were. The only thing missing on that train wreck of a site are the flaming skulls gifs from 1999 but from the looks of things that should be in there by tomorrow.

Camo with camo trimmings and a cowboy with packhorse silhouetted with an American flag. It is so manly my neatly trimmed beard just grew a second even more neatly trimed beard.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:46 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

the "send snacks" flag has been updated
posted by burgerrr at 3:52 PM on January 13, 2016 [13 favorites]

They have a website now !

This must be fake.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:55 PM on January 13, 2016

It's not - that's the very best part !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:58 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

I like the quote by nobody at the bottom.
posted by Artw at 4:07 PM on January 13, 2016

I like that the news feed includes headlines like "Oregon Militiamen Appear To Be Preparing To Put Local Officials On ‘Trial’"
posted by Vibrissa at 4:10 PM on January 13, 2016

"World of Tanks"? No wonder Truckasaurus is so mad.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:16 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Reality TV Terrorism.

Edit: Like Trailer Park Boys, except in an office building. And with guns instead of grass.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:08 PM on January 13, 2016

> the more you look into them the more absolutely laughable they are - laughable except the guns thing of course.

You will hear some gun owners say that an armed society leads to a mutually respectful society, or a polite society. I think that some people like to carry in order to stop the sort of laughter at them that you reference. It forces a form of silence that they like to call respect or politeness, when it really is just the fear from others that they may be shot for saying or doing something they don't like.

I also think it's the only reason that some of these guys are listened to at all... There's an implied threat when someone demands to have a voice or your time while carrying a weapon. Not the threat that they are about to use it, but that they may at any moment with little notice.

Something tells me that wasn't the goal of the 2nd amendment...
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:30 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

Cute, they registered their domain to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:31 PM on January 13, 2016

Growing Up With White Paranoia: Persecution vs. Privilege
posted by Artw at 5:37 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

I also think it's the only reason that some of these guys are listened to at all...

Occupy Wall Street and the many Black Lives Matter (before and after it was called that) protests didn't include weapons, and look where it got them. And other protests, too. Remember this guy? He's not at Malheur with his pepper spray.
posted by hippybear at 5:39 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

My new insane plan involves some a Go Pros, DJ Phantom drones,bear spray, David Bowie's "I'm afraid of Americans" and strobe lights.
posted by humanfont at 5:54 PM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]

No Dildos? Plan denied !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:05 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

By the way PopeHat as an incredibly informative summary of the arson legal proceedings against the Hammonds - ostensibly what this whole idiocy was first about.
I found the above link just a few minutes ago while getting into a "discussion" with someone who had obviously been watching Faux News too much.

Highlights of the discussion :
Him: "But they never were granted a jury during the appeal!"
Me: {sigh}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:27 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

OPB posted this awesome video of the refuge during more normal times. (Facebook video link)
posted by humanfont at 8:07 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

In my facebook today is a story about a 76 year old ex high school wrestling coach/birder who went out to the refuge to check on some young owls. He lives in Burns. He was confronted by some fat, camo guy with a gun who told him to get on the ground, and the old birder said no, the camo guy busted a move and the elderly birder left him groaning on the ground and went to check on the owlets. Then he went home.

I think it would be amazing to put up free cattle signs over along the Bundy ranch in Nevada. Since he isn't paying grazing fees, aren't the cattle property of the American people anyway?
posted by Oyéah at 8:21 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

the camo guy busted a move

Wait - did he break his move all by himself or did the elderly birder knee him in the crotch?
posted by Going To Maine at 8:28 PM on January 13, 2016

79-Year-Old Bird Watcher Takes Down Oregon Militant With Old High School Wrestling Move (it is satire but at this point it can be hard to tell)

Also the fire chief who resigned in protest today retired in 2006.
posted by phoque at 8:29 PM on January 13, 2016

(it is satire

Thanks, I thought so but given the general nuttiness i wasn't 100% sure. It was just a little too perfect, though .
posted by Miko at 8:32 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cute, they registered their domain to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Perhaps a little too cute. The Fraudulent Online Identity Sanctions Act as part of the Intellectual Property Protection in Courts Administration Act provides stiff penalties for providing false domain name registration information. It adds a new criminal provision, 18 USCA Sect 3559 (2000 & Supp 2004), that requires judges to double, or boost by seven years, the sentence for a felony offense that involves the use of a falsely registered Internet domain name.

I suppose it matters what they do with their domain and if it involves a felony.
posted by JackFlash at 8:42 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

David Fry now says he's not pro-ISIS . This is the guy who had holocaust denial stuff all over his web presence and who built the (weirdly tank video infested) website for the lunatics.
posted by Death and Gravity at 8:44 PM on January 13, 2016

Local PDX paper Willamette Week joined with Oregon Public Broadcasting to write an article out about Bundyland.

I don't think I realized that parts of Oregon were part of the old proposed state of Deseret. Sadly, article does not include any mention of the bags of dicks they've received, nor the 55-gallon drum of lube...
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:06 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]

Scott Carrier has an interview with one of the Bundy gang: “Absolutely, God Told Us To Do This”
posted by Going To Maine at 9:19 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ryan Bundy: Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one AR-15 semi-automatic-rifle; two boxes of ammunition; blue tarp; Coffee-mate Liquid Creamer, French Vanilla, 16 oz.; pocket constitution; pocket bible; pocket book of mormon; folded 8.5x11 sheet of office paper diagramming connections between International Zionism and Bureau of Land Management courtesy webude; camouflage-print winter coat; camouflage-print winter pants; cowboy hat; 15 dildos express shipped courtesy Amazon; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings; 55-gallon drum of personal lubricant. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:47 PM on January 13, 2016 [10 favorites]

He said he came to the refuge from his home outside Cincinnati while his parents were on vacation in Costa Rica. He said they will return home in about a week.

I sort of love the way OPB just leaves the bit about his parents as an easter egg for the attentive reader.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:35 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Fraudulent Online Identity Sanctions Act as part of the Intellectual Property Protection in Courts Administration Act provides stiff penalties for providing false domain name registration information. It adds a new criminal provision, 18 USCA Sect 3559 (2000 & Supp 2004), that requires judges to double, or boost by seven years, the sentence for a felony offense that involves the use of a falsely registered Internet domain name.

That's highly problematic. A felony for trying to have an anonymous domain?

Also, having automatic multipliers to sentences, without judicial review is highly concerning. America needs to remove people from prison, not add them.

Don't get me wrong, the armed takeover of a building (federal or not) should have some jailtime associated with it.

Anonymously creating a domain should not be a felony.
posted by el io at 10:51 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's highly problematic. A felony for trying to have an anonymous domain?

No. For using it in the commission of a felony crime.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:59 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I read it correctly, I think false registration in of itself isn't penalized - only if the domain is used in a felony offense. This one is new to me as well and rather surprising. I'll have to dig some.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:02 PM on January 13, 2016

There is a chat link about to go up on that web site. It's not yet live - only a placeholder link that just went up but we can possibly expect chat real soon now.

I don't see what could possibly go _hilariously wrong here.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:15 PM on January 13, 2016

A felony for trying to have an anonymous domain?

As stated, it is a penalty for using a fictitious domain registration to commit a felony. It was primarily designed for spammers and fishers and such.

What is unclear is if you used an illegal domain to solicit money or contributions to advance a felony crime would be covered. For example asking for food and money donations so that you can steal a federal excavator to tear down fences.
posted by JackFlash at 11:42 PM on January 13, 2016

A felony for trying to have an anonymous domain?

That is not at all what is going on here, the choice of address is extremely symbolic.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:48 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Speaking to OPB Wednesday, Fry identified his personal religious affiliation as Messianic Judaism

http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/oregon-militant-website-creator-david-fry-im-not-isis/

Oh, fuck this fucking shit and every fucking fuck involved...
posted by mikelieman at 12:46 AM on January 14, 2016

That is not at all what is going on here, the choice of address is extremely symbolic.

Sure as hell violates ICANN rules, but when you're willing to do federal time for felony charges, I guess being honest in your domain registrations isn't to be expected...

https://archive.icann.org/en/udrp/udrp-rules-24oct99.htm
posted by mikelieman at 12:57 AM on January 14, 2016

>Fry identified his personal religious affiliation as Messianic Judaism

"Messianic Judaism" is to actual Judaism as bologna is to kosher.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:05 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

mikelieman: “I guess being honest in your domain registrations isn't to be expected...”

Yeah? I'm not sure I've ever used a real address. I used 1060 W. Addison for years. Now I just pay the protection money.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:19 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

a box and a stick and a string and a bear: He said he came to the refuge from his home outside Cincinnati while his parents were on vacation in Costa Rica. He said they will return home in about a week.

I can't help but imagine his poor parents on their vacation, just trying to have one week of peace and quiet away from their son's conspiracy theories, and then making the mistake of turning on the news. (long sigh) "David's done it again. He's joined another terrorist group."
posted by bluecore at 4:42 AM on January 14, 2016 [15 favorites]

"At least he's not blowing his money on Magic: The Gathering cards again."
posted by drezdn at 4:53 AM on January 14, 2016 [9 favorites]

Oregon standoff: Harney County won't host community meeting with Bundy as headliner
posted by Artw at 6:57 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

"...why the balls are they even asking?" asked a bewildered Harney County employee.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:06 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

ember Chris Briels, a retired Burns fire chief who held a part-time position acting as the county fire marshal, said he had resigned that post over the county's refusal to host the meeting.

"I will not work for government or a person that I do not believe in or have faith in," Briels said, joining the occupiers at a Wednesday news briefing at the refuge. "I will not work for somebody that I don't trust."

You know, I rather suspect they are better off without a pro-arson fire marshall.
posted by Artw at 7:14 AM on January 14, 2016 [19 favorites]

But by resigning Briels has placed his comrades in grave danger!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:19 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oregon standoff: Harney County won't host community meeting with Bundy as headliner

Anyone think the Yeehadists just might come in and occupy the facility and hold their meeting anyway?
posted by Thorzdad at 7:54 AM on January 14, 2016

Anyone think the Yeehadists just might come in and occupy the facility and hold their meeting anyway?

C'mon everyone, gun-toting yeehadists have taken over the community center and invited us all to a meeting! We better go see what it's all about, right?
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:21 AM on January 14, 2016

Going out on a limb here and saying that if a bunch of unmoored militiamen from different states moved in and occupied local public spaces by force, I might not consider them as 'community' immediately, either.
posted by newdaddy at 9:41 AM on January 14, 2016

White House petition - Arrest Ammon Bundy and the armed occupiers of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge
posted by zakur at 9:43 AM on January 14, 2016

C'mon everyone, gun-toting yeehadists have taken over the community center and invited us all to a meeting! We better go see what it's all about, right?

This sounds like the elevator pitch for a shitty re-make of Over the Edge.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:50 AM on January 14, 2016

Wasn't there some discussion upthread about how the "yeehadist" jokes were kind of shitty to rural Americans and Muslims?
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:08 AM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]

Also, according to the Oregonian, the jailed rancher has ordered the militia off his land, and has repaired the fence, with his own resources. That must rustle the collective militia rhubarb.
posted by Oyéah at 10:11 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Different rancher than the Hammonds Oyeah. But still demonstrates that the local ranchers don't agree with the occupation.
posted by humanfont at 11:14 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Couple of comments deleted; let's ease back on the yeehadi/y'allqueda thing, we've recently had a MeTa about not making lazy jibes at southerners/rural folks, plus the joke's been made a dozen times and it doesn't need to become a further point of contention in here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:41 AM on January 14, 2016 [6 favorites]

Grifter thug-in-chief Ammon Bundy, completely unaware of the concept of irony:

"There is an extreme amount of intimidation and pressure on the community right now. It is coming from those who have basically occupied their town..."
posted by bluecore at 11:44 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh good heavens, the comments on that YouTube.
posted by mochapickle at 11:56 AM on January 14, 2016

Oh good heavens, the comments on that YouTube.

Scary, isn't it? Try not to think about how they very well might be your neighbor.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:48 PM on January 14, 2016

I'm in Colorado Springs, so they probably are!
posted by mochapickle at 12:49 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

I liked the part where Ammon Bundy says, "the only reason we're here is because of our love for you." And I liked the way the shadow of his hat covered his eyes in the video. His nose is a white blob marking every word he utters. "We know that we're very close to uncovering some really deep things."
posted by sneebler at 12:51 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Their "internet chat room" - now a Disqus forum is everything you could imagine. Hundreds of posts berating the group and the single "mod" being about as lost with issues of social media and public relations as a John McCain at CES. At one point he openly suggests hanging President Obama. Elsewhere, in answer to a question regarding the unasked for destruction of the rancher's fence, he replies, "Shut up and eat your Fukushima!" Oh and the memes have arrived as well on that forum.

Comedy Gold if you are an optimist - a nightmare if not.

AT this point I really think they should be arrested for their own protection before a local mob starts forming which I seriously do not think is out of the question considering how many local people they are making very angry.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:58 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

"We know that we're very close to uncovering some really deep things."

MS Paint diagrams to follow.
posted by Artw at 4:00 PM on January 14, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oregon militia could face more than 10 years in prison, legal experts say
posted by Artw at 4:02 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm picturing the U.S. Attorney's office with one of those digital "National Debt" counters up on the wall except for jail time and watching it tick over whenever they commit yet another felony.
posted by JackFlash at 5:06 PM on January 14, 2016 [7 favorites]

According to NPR, Star Wars: The Force Awakens opens at the Burns theatre, the only moviehouse in over a hundred miles, at the same time these clowns are holding their "town hall meeting". LOL
posted by Windopaene at 7:02 PM on January 14, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's fantastic! More on that here.

Apparently the theater owner has been playing the older Star Wars movies all week with free admission.
posted by mochapickle at 7:45 PM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]

And big city folk ridicule small town life. I wish I'd had that offered where I live!
posted by hippybear at 7:53 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

And big city folk ridicule small town life.

Really? Where?
posted by Anoplura at 8:11 PM on January 14, 2016

In every city since the dawn of civilization. (And right back in the other direction)
posted by Drinky Die at 8:20 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

If this guy was a real rancher, he would know not to remove barbed wire without gloves!
posted by stet at 8:23 PM on January 14, 2016

Really? Where?

Small town ridicule and flyover country hate is a staple of MetaFilter. Hang out here much?
posted by hippybear at 8:25 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did the Republican Presidential hopefuls get a single question in tonight's debate on how they would deal with the situation?
posted by humanfont at 8:31 PM on January 14, 2016

Trump campaign member praises Oregon wildlife refuge occupation - appears to be somewhat unofficial.
posted by Artw at 8:34 PM on January 14, 2016

Heavily Armed Oregon Patriots Lied about Actual Military Combat Service
The heavily armed protestors strutting around dressed in military camouflage in Oregon have one thing in common: many have lied about their service in the U.S. military, falsified combat duty service in Iraq and Afghanistan, and lied about being captured, held as POW’s, and being wounded in battle, according to official U.S. military documents and veteran groups who investigate false military service.
posted by phoque at 8:40 PM on January 14, 2016 [7 favorites]

Did the Republican Presidential hopefuls get a single question in tonight's debate on how they would deal with the situation?

I missed the first half hour, but it certainly didn't pop up in the remaining two hours.
posted by mochapickle at 8:41 PM on January 14, 2016

Wildlife enthusiasts plan protests over Oregon occupation
posted by Artw at 8:44 PM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

No, there was no mention of this at the debate. To be fair, Obama ignored it in the SOTU as well.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:45 PM on January 14, 2016

To be fair, he's not interviewing for a job.
posted by ctmf at 9:55 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait, I finally get it. This is a satire. It's satire as performance art. Well done!
posted by five fresh fish at 10:15 PM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Shut up and eat your Fukushima!"

What does this even mean?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:27 PM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

So, if the Disqus mod is yelling about Fukuskima, the mod must be the Hitler/Daesh fan kid who's parents are in Costa Rica, right?
posted by blueberry at 10:31 PM on January 14, 2016

“Shut up and eat your Fukushima!”

What does this even mean?

It means that for a die-hard Patriot, he is surprisingly bad at communicating in his mother tongue.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:33 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Elsewhere, in answer to a question regarding the unasked for destruction of the rancher's fence, he replies, "Shut up and eat your Fukushima!"

Probably a reference to stuff like this. The anti-nuke crowd has been promoting radiation panic since the day the news about the problems at the plant started.
posted by Drinky Die at 11:04 PM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

DRINKY DIE - That sort of thing is exactly what he is talking about. His Google+ page is a hotbed of literal insanity. He cleaned it up but only to about 2 months ago. Prior to that it is still extremely insane.

His spelling and modding skills are getting progressively worse - he's been doing this for about 12ish hours now.

In a way it's a good thing that he is going to be caught and sentenced for this because his early rants are exactly like those of the sad people you hear about after they had done mass shootings. The other ranchers are "merely" deluded blowhards most of whom probably have their escape plan ready. But this kid - this "mod" - I get the distinct impression that he entirely believes all of it.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:51 PM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was on the fence about sending in the SWAT team, but if they're using disqus and google+, I don't think we have any choice.
posted by ryanrs at 2:18 AM on January 15, 2016 [12 favorites]

Meanwhile in other News.
Panning for a cross-country march to “restore America” — which is related to the Oregon nature preserve standoff — appears to have hit a snag when one of its organizers shot the other co-founder Monday afternoon during a drunken argument over a gun.
Sheriff’s deputies in Grayson County, Texas, have not released details about the fatal shooting, but social media posts by right-wing “patriots” associated with militants occupying an Oregon nature preserve identified the victim and shooter as the organizers of the Paul Revere 2016 Final March To Restore America.
posted by adamvasco at 7:36 AM on January 15, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Limping Across America !"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:58 AM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's not going to be limping if it was a fatal shooting. Maybe it could be a "Wake Across America".
posted by five fresh fish at 8:16 AM on January 15, 2016

"Get Out of My Way 'Merica ! "
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:19 AM on January 15, 2016

The Crackpot Alternative Legal System That Threatens To Escalate The Oregon Standoff (nothing that hasn't been conveyed in previous links posted here, but a good one-link primer to send to others)
posted by bluecore at 9:53 AM on January 15, 2016 [4 favorites]

For this federal-judge: David-Wynn: Miller’s-correction of the vassalees-fiction-syntax-grammar-pleadings is with the correction-participation-claim of this babble-indictment-evidence and: bad-probation-syntax=grammar-evidence. (Why did the vassalees do this case with a void-communications?) For the void-drogue-law, void-oath of an office, void-judge’s-oath, void-docking-court-house-vessel in the Washington-state-dry-dock and: void-original-lodial-land-title.

Glossolalia law.
posted by Artw at 10:20 AM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oregon militia has 4,000 artifacts in the building they're occupying
posted by Artw at 11:21 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Before white man came, so to speak, there was nothing to keep cattle from tromping on those things," Bundy said.

Though some countries had domesticated cattle 10,000 years ago, the animals came to the United States with European settlers.

"We also recognize that the Native Americans had the claim to the land, but they lost that claim," Bundy said. "There are things to learn from cultures of the past, but the current culture is the most important."

So... they claim that because there was some ranching in the area before the Refuge was established, the Refuge needs to be de-established and the area used for ranching and mining again.

But the people who really pre-date the Refuge, who have evidence of occupation going back thousands of years? They "lost that claim". They're irrelevant.

Fuck you, asshole, and the four-by you rode in on.
posted by suelac at 11:56 AM on January 15, 2016 [23 favorites]

Hey, we genocided this land fair and square
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:04 PM on January 15, 2016 [12 favorites]

Honestly, bringing up the specter of Native Americans in these incidents always rubs me the wrong way. We’re almost all living on land that wasn’t fairly claimed from the natives. Are we proposing that we ourselves are going to vacate the country? If someone challenged your claim to your house because it had at one time belonged to the natives, would you give up your property?
posted by Going To Maine at 12:11 PM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

I live in Albany, NY, so the title here is pretty clear back to the Patroon's purchase from the Mahicans, but being Jewish this issue has actual relevance in say, Jerusalem...
posted by mikelieman at 12:17 PM on January 15, 2016

So, when's the community meeting?
posted by newdaddy at 12:38 PM on January 15, 2016

I really, really hope the Feds are playing a devious long-game here, and actually have a concrete plan for ending this, and it's all going according to said plan.

The silence from anyone in authority is a bit depressing. It makes me fear they have no earthly clue how to end this silliness. Beyond a commando raid, of course.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:41 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oregon militia has 4,000 artifacts in the building they're occupying.

This latest revelation is a very big deal. It is not the artifacts in the building that are at risk. It is the thousands of artifacts still in the field that are recorded on the maps.

The southwest has thousands of locations of native antiquities and archaeological sites on federal land and their recorded locations are carefully kept secret by federal authorities to prevent looting and deliberate destruction. From this article it seems that the Bundys now have access to those secret documents. Given that there is free movement of people in and out of the compound, there is nothing preventing the Bundys from xeroxing those secret maps and distributing them.

Pay no attention to Ammon Bundy's denial of interest in these artifact locations. They are very interested in them because antiquities are one of the reasons certain federal lands are closed to vehicles. Ryan Bundy was involved in the Recapture Canyon incident in 2014 in which they deliberately staged a confrontation and rode their ATVs onto land that was closed to motorized vehicles to prevent damage to archaeological sites.

So the Bundys have a demonstrated interest in looting and destroying archaeological sites in order to open up roadless areas to them. No antiquities, then no longer a reason to prevent vehicle access. Copying and distributing these carefully guarded maps could result in the destruction of thousands of archaeological sites in the West.
posted by JackFlash at 12:58 PM on January 15, 2016 [24 favorites]

Ugggh.
posted by mochapickle at 1:08 PM on January 15, 2016

Honestly, bringing up the specter of Native Americans in these incidents always rubs me the wrong way

Well, it's not like real life non-ghostly Native Americans haven't been pretty clear in wanting these guys to fuck off.
posted by Artw at 1:11 PM on January 15, 2016 [14 favorites]

Oregon militia has 4,000 artifacts in the building they're occupying.

Which really now explains why the Feds have no interest in causing a building fire (tear gas) or a huge shoot out. It's not the merely Bundy's they are attempting to preserve.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:12 PM on January 15, 2016

bringing up the specter of Native Americans

The Burns Paiute Tribe is hardly a specter. They're right there. They have an interest in the area, it's their ancestral lands, and the FWS and BLM and other federal agencies have been and continue to work with them to respect their connection to the landscape, to grant them access for ceremonial and traditional uses, and to protect pre-European sites.

Whereas I bet Bundy & his ilk are absolutely going to be looting everything they can get their dirty hands on, just the same as ISIS is in the Middle East. ISIS is funding their operations with the sale of oil, and the sale of artifacts -- especially artifacts that predate Islam, because they don't like the idea of anything that predates Islam.

And I don't think it's a big stretch to assume that these Bundyites/sovereign citizens/white supremacists have a similar attitude about pre-European cultural history. They don't want proof that someone else has a prior claim, after all -- how better to deal with that than to make money off destroying the proof?
posted by suelac at 1:12 PM on January 15, 2016 [16 favorites]

Someone I know in Burns says some of the militia guys have been trying to provoke a confrontation today. For everyone's sake I hope it fails, or that it's just the routine and he is exaggerating. He has been saying for days that the town is completely on edge and people expect violence.

I can understand the Feds taking a hands off approach to the refuge buildings, but it is unbelievable what impacts and threats they are allowing to the local residents.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:14 PM on January 15, 2016 [8 favorites]

Homeland Security Looked Past Antigovernment Movement, Ex-Analyst Says

Sagebrush Rebellion Politics

But it’s also worth noting that people like the Bundys and Hammonds are also the extremist wing of a huge amount of sentiment among whites in the rural West. The Hammonds and many others like them in the rural West have created a history that they are the rightful occupiers of land that they own. This is the core of the Sagebrush Rebellion. Never mind that they don’t own very much of that land–it’s federal land. Never mind that their lifestyle on the land of running cattle, often in ecologically sensitive places, has one of this nation’s biggest forms of welfare for more than a century. And of course never mind that the the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is on stolen Paiute land. This is their land. These people see themselves as the descendants of pioneers, carving a living out of a hard landscape. That project always had a complicated relationship with the government. The ancestors of the Hammonds and of my family wanted the government to kick out Indians, provide cheap land, and get their crops to market. They also wanted absolutely no regulation on their activities and assumed that even after the establishment of agencies like the U.S. Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management, that government should work for the ranchers and loggers. And for most of their history, those agencies did, often leading to severe environmental degradation.

In Oregon, Myth Mixes With Anger

These complaints contain elements of truth: Rural communities in the West are poorer than urban communities, and environmental protections enacted since the 1980s have reduced grazing on federal lands. But locals told an interesting version of this history. Before the federal agencies came, they said, we lived in paradise. The grass was thick, the water was abundant and the towns were thriving. We were independent, working out our problems. When the feds came, they stole our resources, and our economies collapsed.

The implication was clear: If they got rid of the federal government, they’d have control over their land and lives again.

This version of history bears little resemblance to the actual past.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:35 PM on January 15, 2016 [5 favorites]

They've called off announcing how they'll leave because they were n't allowed to use a public venue - obviously they couldn't just say they were leaving without a big show. Or, you know, they were never going to leave anyway.
posted by Artw at 1:37 PM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

KTVZ News: OSP arrests Crescent resident Kenneth Medenbach, 62, on charges in theft of two govt. vehicles from Malheur refuge.
posted by bluecore at 2:21 PM on January 15, 2016 [4 favorites]

More info: "Kenneth Medenbach, 62, of Crescent, Oregon, is accused of unauthorized use of vehicle - driving a refuge rig to Safeway in town."
posted by bluecore at 2:27 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

He drove it to the Safeway in town.

Seems pretty complacent or oblivious or both.
posted by phoque at 2:28 PM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

A fellow by the same name got into some hot water 20 years ago after building a cabin on federal land in LaPine, which is just up the road from Crescent.
posted by mochapickle at 2:39 PM on January 15, 2016

Our latest player.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:41 PM on January 15, 2016

looks like electrocution waiting to happen
posted by burgerrr at 2:43 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Budda aka "Fluffy Unicorn" just got busted in Arizona as well - FYI
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:50 PM on January 15, 2016

looks like electrocution waiting to happen

Absolutely needs "Yakkity-Sax" music
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:53 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Armed Oregon Occupiers Scrub Meeting With Town, Tell FBI to Leave

I have a feeling that they are on the verge of escalation, and whatever goes down next we're going to be hearing a lot about how they were trying to be reasonable but their hands were forced etc, etc, etc...
posted by Artw at 3:12 PM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

... told reporters Friday that Bundy is preparing a PowerPoint presentation.

That alone deserves serious jail time.
posted by JackFlash at 3:24 PM on January 15, 2016 [10 favorites]

Anti-Defamation League takes a look at the occupation, the occupiers and their ideology.
Anatomy of a Standoff; The Occupiers of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Headquarters
(PDF)
posted by phoque at 3:26 PM on January 15, 2016

Taking a govt vehicle to the store probably isn't theft, right? Is there a federal joyriding statute?
posted by ryanrs at 3:28 PM on January 15, 2016

The hilarity level of their disqus forum is exponentially increasing. Apparently the mod hasn't been seen or heard from for some time now. He mentioned fears yesterday in an Oregonian interview that he was going to be kicked out of the compound. He also mentioned that he was running the whole show from his cell phone data plan so possibly - out of minutes??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:33 PM on January 15, 2016

FBI to Malheur Militia: You’re Free to Travel
I met LaVoy Finicum in Cedar City, Utah yesterday (1/13/16) when I thought he was in Oregon engaged in an armed occupation of a federal facility at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon.

How could this be?
posted by phoque at 3:33 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

It appears that the Disqus forum inexplicably did not work out as planned so the mod deleted it. Who could have predicted that one ?

The 24 hours of freedom experiment in online media appears to have failed.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:18 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

The book said Medenbach was building his dream home out of discarded refrigerators, water heaters and other such material.

"A 'code' is only a suggestion. It's not a law," he was quoted as saying, adding, "He subscribes to the legal theory that the courts have no authority over him because all judges belong to the state bar association, which he believes is unconstitutional."
posted by rdr at 4:18 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Medenbach must be incredible at Fallout 4
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:19 PM on January 15, 2016 [5 favorites]

Medenbach at home
posted by phoque at 4:22 PM on January 15, 2016

For Now, Law Enforcement And Militants Won't Cross Tracks
posted by phoque at 4:24 PM on January 15, 2016

The OPB/WW article was interesting. The Feds have everything ready and can move in at any time. The only thing they arnt doing is blockading the facility.
posted by humanfont at 4:40 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Looking like one of them got picked up in one of the stolen vehicles

Haven't found any other confirmation yet, but digging.
posted by Archelaus at 4:44 PM on January 15, 2016

Protester arrested in Burns, accused of driving stolen refuge vehicle

with lots of pictures including home and water heater pile
posted by phoque at 4:45 PM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

The fact that they arrested Medenbach for stealing the pickup truck is interesting.

The big problem with Waco and Ruby Ridge is that not only was there a bloodbath, as far as a lot of people were concerned it wasn't clear that actual crimes were being committed to justify the bloodbath.

I think the Feds know there is a strong possibility of this all going pear-shaped too, but I think they are making sure that if it happens, when it happens nobody will be in any doubt whose fault it is or that it really was necessary. If that means waiting for the nutjobs to get violent first, they are willing to do that. This may explain why nothing was ever done about the first Bundy standoff. It broke up more or less peacefully leaving the original status quo, and most of the documented crimes are of the using federal resources and pointing guns at the wrong people variety, which some people don't think are "real crimes."

On the other hand driving a truck that doesn't belong to you without permission is a pretty unambiguous felony and since the guy was alone and getting groceries taking him in wasn't a big deal. I think this points strongly to what the Feds are willing to do. There isn't a jury in the US that will nullify car theft because of patriot blather. The driver of the second vehicle probably realized this and I suspect it was meant as a deliberate provocation that is probably sending a bit of a shock wave through the militant group since they were probably getting used to the idea that they could do whatever they wanted. Surprise, fuckers.

As for generally letting the idiots come and go, the moment they start taking people in at random the rest are going to go into siege mode, and then you really will have Waco slash Ruby Ridge all over again -- OK not quite the same because those were really private property and not an occupation of a government facility, but it still means you're in almost inevitable firefight territory with women and kids on the inside.

It's kind of an open question how long this could go on. On the one hand they could play the Feds along almost forever by keeping cool. But on the other these people seem really stupid, and there is a lot of friction within the group. Probably the best case scenario the LEO's are really hoping for is for them to start shooting at each other so the LEO's can come in and salvage the situation without blame.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:59 PM on January 15, 2016 [11 favorites]

He was arrested in the Safeway parking lot in one vehicle bearing federal government license plates. A second federal vehicle was parked next to him, but the man police suspect of driving that into town already had gone into the grocery before police arrived.

I can't discern from this if the police are incompetent or if the journalist is pulling our legs. Couldn't the police have tracked the man suspected of driving the second vehicle into the store? Or waited for when he came out?
posted by newdaddy at 5:01 PM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

This photo of Medenbach's Anti-BLM house includes his letter explaining his position and concludes;

And on behalf of the Citizens of Oregon, I, Kenneth Medenbach, take possession of the south 1/2 of Section 35, Township 34 South, Range 8 West, Willamette, Meridian, by adverse possession.
posted by phoque at 5:13 PM on January 15, 2016

Abracadabra! Make it so!
posted by indubitable at 5:25 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

Aaaaand the cherry on top: Medenbach vs USA (his Google+ site), in which he claims that the Ninth Circuit has no jurisdiction over him, etc.
posted by mochapickle at 5:30 PM on January 15, 2016

Meanwhile, since November he's been scheduled for a court date for those Medford charges on 1/19.
posted by mochapickle at 5:32 PM on January 15, 2016

“Refuge of Scoundrels,” Jim Wright, Stonekettle Station, 15 January 2016

[I]f civilization does not protect the weak from the ruthless, then what damned good is it?

Those squatting in Malheur are not patriots. They are not soldiers. They are not citizens. They are an armed rabble of selfish malcontents.

They are nothing but bums with guns.

And that too is an American tradition, this ongoing lunatic tolerance for sedition in our own midst.

posted by ob1quixote at 5:43 PM on January 15, 2016 [8 favorites]

Law enforcement has also established a command center in the middle of Burns.

They’ve taken over school district and county buildings, and fenced off two city blocks. The entrances are guarded 24 hours a day, and tall security lights shine on the property at night.

Fight fire with fire?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:12 PM on January 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

My guess as to why the second guy "got away" is that the feds told the sheriff who they wanted to get arrested. I'm sure the feds know every detail of each of these guys lives and they know who looks most like a lunatic when their record gets splashed all over the news. Also, if you're going to fuck with a paranoid group that likely has a justified fear of federal informants in their midst all you have to do is arrest one guy and let another one go.
posted by rdr at 6:28 PM on January 15, 2016 [8 favorites]

Or nobody wanted to fuck around with an armed maniac in a store full of people.
posted by Artw at 6:38 PM on January 15, 2016 [8 favorites]

Really, what's the big difference between getting to live rent-free in BLM facilities and driving BLM vehicles? Po-tay-to, po-tah-to. And they're taxpayers, right? So they should have access to things that they (loosely, indirectly) paid for, right? Kind of like how government photos and research are in the public domain, ya know. {/hamburger}
posted by filthy light thief at 7:33 PM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]

Really, what's the big difference between getting to live rent-free in BLM facilities and driving BLM vehicles?

I'm guessing we're seeing the beginning of the end of the occupation here. I'd expect more arrests in the near future.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:07 PM on January 15, 2016

I'm guessing we're seeing the beginning of the end of the occupation here. I'd expect more arrests in the near future.

Especially arrests of people, one by one, who are picked up away from the refuge buildings for open warrants or doing dumb-ass things like driving a stolen truck.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:17 PM on January 15, 2016

I’m kind of confused; where do we send old dildos to help the cause? Asking for a friend.
posted by bongo_x at 8:26 PM on January 15, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ok new plan. Everyone stop sending them dildos. Start sending them poppy seeds, drain cleaner, sudafed, and lab equipment. Then tip off the DEA that they are setting up a drug lab.
posted by humanfont at 8:34 PM on January 15, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't know why anyone thinks one guy being arrested is somehow the beginning of the end or the feds cracking down. He was arrested by OSP for car theft and an outstanding warrant from another state. The feds may well have wanted to not be seen as involved, but for whatever reason, no feds were involved that anyone has confirmed.

It's the damndest thing. At some point the US federal government has got to come to terms with the issue of where "being smart to avoid making martyrs out of these guys" runs into the very widespread perception among millions of Americans that they are being intimidated into non-responsiveness, that the rule of law doesn't apply to armed white men, and that armed takeover gets you lots of publicity and free snacks and dildos and all and a huge platform for your subversive message with no consequences. Yeah people are laughing at them. But not in their circles of influence, however limited. There they are seen as heroes who succeed in avoiding martyrdom by being armed and tough and ideologically correct. In other words, the line between ignoring them and emboldening them feels like it was crossed quite some time ago.

I know many in the environmentalist community are beginning to lose faith that this is a "strategy" by the feds, of containment or waiting them out or whatever. It looks and smells like fear. Allowing them to have power and food and reinforcements and trips into town makes no sense. Especially if you don't arrest every single one who can be isolated away from the standoff at the first opportunity.

In my view, having encountered a few of these types in my life, there's not much percentage to be gained in sparing them the martyrdom they seek. The feds won't come of as more enlightened or receptive to rational engagement. If they walk away, they won't be humiliated, they will have won. And every day they stand there holding this ground their stature grows within their community of nutballs.

There are so many non-lethal ways to suppress this efficiently, beginning with the obvious idea of freezing and starving them the hell out of there. But the lack of a public statement of policy and at least warning that a price will be paid, even from the Attorney General or Homeland Security or the FBI, is getting to be so much bullshit.

The actual American people who actually own that land and actually have an economic and political interest in seeing it maintained and controlled as a bird sanctuary far outnumber the "ranchers" who claim an interest. So do the Paiutes, for that matter. The occupiers' claim is illegitimate for a fact and humoring it is bullshit too; they do not speak for any significant number of "the American people," and someone in authority ought to at least stand up on TV, say so, and point a warning finger at them with a deadline ultimatum after which they will be without food, water, power, or the ability to set one foot out the front door without being taken down by a non-lethal round, an LRAD, or a firehose or an annoyed Alsatian or three wearing body armor.

The lack of any high level federal public response is so dismaying. And the staties busting one dude in a parking lot for driving a reserve truck is bullshit. They didn't even get the other guy driving the other reserve truck.

Bullshit.
posted by spitbull at 8:48 AM on January 16, 2016 [32 favorites]

Poll shows majority of westerners in seven states oppose giving each state control over their BLM lands. The poll was done previous to the Bundy invasion, but there are now social media posts making the rounds which claim that most westerners favor taking control of BLM land, which is not true except in Utah by a narrow margin.
posted by Brian B. at 9:16 AM on January 16, 2016

The Good, Bad and Ugly in Oregon Standoff Coverage
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:19 AM on January 16, 2016 [13 favorites]

That is not even true in Utah. Whatever slanted poll that was. Utahans love their wilderness and do not want the deserts full of smog and oil wells.
posted by Oyéah at 9:27 AM on January 16, 2016

That is not even true in Utah. Whatever slanted poll that was. Utahans love their wilderness and do not want the deserts full of smog and oil wells.

Utah passed a law demanding return of federal lands.
posted by Brian B. at 9:38 AM on January 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

Counter-protestors standing up for the refuge.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:38 PM on January 16, 2016 [3 favorites]

man of twists and turns thank you for that most excellent link.
posted by adamvasco at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2016

Birders protest in Bend against refuge takeover
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

Those can't be birders... not one of them are wearing binoculars.
posted by hippybear at 2:40 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

From OregonLive this afternoon:

Members of the Center for Biological Diversity, led by executive director Kierán Suckling, arrived for Saturday briefing carrying signs and waiting for an opening to speak against the seizure of the wildlife refuge 30 miles south of Burns.

When Finicum finished, Suckling picked up the mic.

"The center has been tangling with the Bundys since the mid-1990s," Suckling said of the Arizona-based nonprofit, which claims more than 990,000 members and activists dedicated to protecting wild places and endangered species. But before he could finish, the occupiers started screaming and booing.

"We're here to speak up for public land, which belongs to the public," Suckling continued over the roar.

"These people are trying to take the land away."

Pete Santilli, one of the occupiers, pulled out a bullhorn and started screaming "communist" and "fascist." He then flipped on a siren and said, "You're under arrest for bull****ting"

Afterward, Suckling said his group had a more civil interaction with the occupiers at the compound, He said it was important to be present, and to not criticize the occupation from the sidelines.



Here's the Center for Biological Diversity's Support page, if anyone feels like joining me in thanking them for standing up for wilderness.
posted by spitbull at 3:46 PM on January 16, 2016 [6 favorites]

Pete Santilli, one of the occupiers, pulled out a bullhorn and started screaming "communist" and "fascist."

Someone has no idea what actual words mean.
posted by hippybear at 3:59 PM on January 16, 2016 [13 favorites]

Rawstory: Militia head warns feds: Don’t ‘Waco’ the Oregon occupiers unless you want a ‘bloody, brutal civil war’
posted by hippybear at 4:20 PM on January 16, 2016

Oregon Patriots Occupied My Butt. Via /r/Oregon on reddit, which has many other good links, and mostly native Oregon perspectives on the occupation (though slanted to reddit's demographic, of course).
posted by idiopath at 4:23 PM on January 16, 2016

The Guardian: "Oregon militia's behavior increasingly brazen as public property destroyed":

On Friday evening, [chairwoman of the local Paiute Indian tribe Charlotte] Rodrique said she was horrified to learn that the militia, led by Nevada rancher Ammon Bundy, had paved a road through part of the wildlife sanctuary. That move came days after occupiers destroyed part of a US Fish and Wildlife Service fence, to allow cattle to freely graze on public lands the federal government controls.

posted by grouse at 4:24 PM on January 16, 2016

The Week: The secret history of cowboy socialism
posted by hippybear at 4:35 PM on January 16, 2016 [4 favorites]

the militia, led by Nevada rancher Ammon Bundy, had paved a road through part of the wildlife sanctuary.

This must be a separated-by-a-common-language thing, because that road is very obviously not paved in the US sense of the word. It's still inappropriate to have done and will be an expensive rehabilitation project later to restore; the people who built it should be charged financially and criminally for every aspect, from stealing the machinery and materials, to the illegal road building and eventual removal.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:36 PM on January 16, 2016 [7 favorites]

Militia head warns feds: Don’t ‘Waco’ the Oregon occupiers unless you want a ‘bloody, brutal civil war’

Y'know...This tells me that "Waco" is probably exactly the outcome these fools want. They were hoping that the Feds would have roared in immediately and provided the Sovereigns with exactly the imagery of an oppressive government that they desired and believe in. That explains why these men-of-the-land didn't bring enough supplies.

Instead, they got...ignored.

Now, despite the Fed's chill response, the occupiers and their supporters are going to ratchet-up the rhetoric and bile higher and higher until...something...breaks. Make no mistake, these people want violence. And they're going to goad the authorities until there's no choice but to roll in and, finally, put a stop to this nonsense.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:42 PM on January 16, 2016 [10 favorites]

Militant Says Foster Children Were Pulled From His Home

“That was my main source of income,” Finicum said. “My ranch, well, the cows just cover the costs of the ranch. If this means rice and beans for the next few years, so be it. We’re going to stay the course.”

and in the same tiny article

Another militant at the refuge, Blaine Cooper, said in a video that Child Protective Services took his children out of his home, but that claim could not be independently verified.

However Pete Santilli (after he acted like a bigger asshole than normal (toward members of the Center for Biological Diversity)), talked to Melissa Cooper (roughly 3 min with very windy desynced audio) who said that her brother went and got the kids back and believes it was her in-laws who called CPS and is visibly worried and on her way home.


Vanity Fair article with a few tidbits;
That Night I Spent with Ammon Bundy’s Armed Militia

“God is on our side,” Melissa said, as she showed off the two washers, two dryers, four refrigerators, two ovens, two dishwashers, and television in the camp. One of the houses where people are bunking had HBO, she told me. The only thing they couldn’t seem to get to work was the Internet, even though they’d found the password. “We have T-bone steaks,” she said.

...

The truth is that most simply wanted to be there. Cooper and his wife told me they quit their jobs, cashed in their 401(k) funds, and left their three kids with friends in Arizona to be “full-time patriots.” They told me the militia had already won: they’d occupied federal buildings without firing a single shot. More importantly, the entire world knew it. He gestured to me as if to say, “Just look at you, you’re here.”
posted by phoque at 7:22 PM on January 16, 2016

Yeah, wait, how the fuck did they pave a road? Did they bring tar instead of food, or is this the worst siege ever?
posted by corb at 7:27 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

That last quote is basically the source of my frustration with the lack of visible government action to at least bottle them in, press charges, -something-.

As far as the Freedom Wingnuts are concerned, they've won this thing.
posted by Archelaus at 7:28 PM on January 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

They drove a bulldozer down a hill connecting the guest lodging to the kitchen, but didn't put in any drainage so it will just turn into a mucky mess.
posted by phoque at 7:30 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

All paving only metaphorical.
posted by Artw at 7:40 PM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, wait, how the fuck did they pave a road?

it's cold enough right now in oregon to freeze bullshit, and they've got a lot of bullshit they can use
posted by pyramid termite at 7:42 PM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, wait, how the fuck did they pave a road?

Lots and lots of dildos.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:43 PM on January 16, 2016 [5 favorites]

So according to "Cowboy" Finicum himself, he has a little hobby ranch but his real job is running a childcare facility funded by government money.
posted by JackFlash at 11:07 PM on January 16, 2016 [11 favorites]

but but government handout bad

so confuse
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:13 PM on January 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

Militia head warns feds: Don’t ‘Waco’ the Oregon occupiers unless you want a ‘bloody, brutal civil war’


They don't just want the Waco, they WANT the bloody, brutal civil war.

And I think the tactics used are pretty good. Scooping them up when they go out on supply runs. Letting that 'potential informer' get back was a great idea, and I'd love to see one of their "Press Conferences" go off the rails when someone raises their hand and says, "Agent Cardholder, US Marshals, Could you please turn around and put your hands on your head, because you're under arrest for...".
posted by mikelieman at 1:06 AM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

And I think the tactics used are pretty good. Scooping them up when they go out on supply runs.

Except that's not really happening and the idea that the Feds are being super-smart and going about this in a methodical planned way doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. Oregon State Police (no Feds involved, TPM has the story wrong according to Oregon sources) busted one marginal character for a probation violation and driving a stolen car. That wasn't the feds. Those weren't "tactics." Many people are going back and forth to the reserve with supplies and not being stopped or arrested. It's a fantasy that the Feds have this under control.

The feds are scared shitless and doing nothing.
posted by spitbull at 5:28 AM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

spitbull: The feds are scared shitless and doing nothing.

I disagree. There's been no evidence to come to that conclusion. The Feds might very be careful and methodical right now behind the scenes because it's in their best interest to do so to lull the militants into a false sense of security, as indicated by strolling down to the Safeway in a stolen refuge vehicle. Yes, the Feds didn't arrest him, but that also avoids the militants using photos of FBI agents with semi-automatic weapons drawn in their "the Federal government is terrorizing this town" propaganda to rile up more militias to join them. So, end result: a felon off the street, one less rifle facing them in the end, two refuge vehicles recovered undamaged, and the militants are painted as common thieves in the press. If Feds aren't seen as doing any of this, that's even better, as the militants will continue to make mistakes thinking they've won.

The lesson from Waco was that barricading the compound creates a "Hitler in the bunker" mentality where the militants feel their options are cut off and they're more likely to accept a suicidal fight to the death. As it is now, we've seen the realities of the world start to sink in with some of these people-- some of them have jobs or spouses to get back to, some of them left try to deal with custody of their kids, some are leaving due to group in-fighting. I agree that the influx of supplies and some new people is frustrating to watch, but I'm hoping that many will come to the realization that it isn't a magical wonderland, it's just a place where people tell them to do chores and stand watch in the cold for eight hours. (Although I wish the power was cut. I want it to be an especially shitty camping experience.)

In the meantime, public opinion outside of the fringe circles is squarely against the militia, the militants are kindly documenting all their crimes on video for the DA, and the FBI HRT is probably developing a plan to minimize deaths if it comes to that. I hope the next big news we hear from the refuge is just video of them all in shackles-- not video of humvees or MRAPs barricading them in because that will just be a beacon for militia members to drive up from Texas or wherever.
posted by bluecore at 7:25 AM on January 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

i'm also wondering if part of the reason for letting things continue as they are is that at least, the feds know what these people are up to and where they are and score can be kept easily on all the felonies they're committing - also, they're making fools out of themselves, which is going to scare away their allies - and the feds are probably getting some very good intelligence on people this way

"here, guys, here's some more rope to hang yourselves with ..."
posted by pyramid termite at 7:45 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, as long as it doesn't become rope to hang us all with...
posted by Artw at 8:02 AM on January 17, 2016

I hope you're right, bluecore, really I do. But:

There's been no evidence to come to that conclusion.

I disagree. And that's the problem here. The evidence is a lack of action of any sort against violations in progress, even off the reserve itself (like the camera destruction yesterday). When in the history of this country has law enforcement ever let something like this just carry on unmolested, and even unthreatened, for this long?

If Loretta Lynch would just give a press conference to *say* "don't worry, we are on top of this, we have a plan, we're purposefully letting them accumulate violations, they will not be allowed to walk away" I'd believe something was going on behind the scenes. But two weeks with no comment whatsoever from a high ranking official in federal law enforcement has millions of people losing faith that the rule of law applies to these guys, especially in contrast to the way law enforcement has treated civil, unarmed protesters from Black Lives Matter or Occupy Wall Street in the recent past. It's a double standard even *if* it is a a "strategy."

Again, I hope I'm wrong, and a massive brilliant rolling up of these maniacs is already planned and in position. At a certain point, the issue is not just how to deal with these guys, but how to give the majority of American citizens some level of confidence or faith in our legal institutions being fair and just.

And as for the Safeway arrest, yeah I hope the feds set that up and chose not to be visible. But then why one marginal guy? Why aren't there arrest warrants issued for the others?
posted by spitbull at 8:08 AM on January 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Literary trivia: in Lolita, one of the places Humbert Humbert and Lolita argue is in front of the Safeway in Burns.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:24 AM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

But two weeks with no comment whatsoever from a high ranking official in federal law enforcement has millions of people losing faith that the rule of law applies to these guys, especially in contrast to the way law enforcement has treated civil, unarmed protesters from Black Lives Matter or Occupy Wall Street in the recent past.

I would say that anyone who's aware enough to draw that conclusion is also well aware of the differences between BLM/OWS and the militia movement, as well as the differences between local and federal law enforcement.

The inaction in this case isn't emboldening anyone to take over other bird sanctuaries in the middle of nowhere. Action, though, might lead to another generation of radicalized white men -- i.e., the perpetrators of most of the terrorist attacks on American soil in our history.
posted by Etrigan at 8:24 AM on January 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

What are the main differences between BLM/OWS and the militia movement?

Hmm, let me think about it.

The inaction is absolutely emboldening people to come join the creeps at Malheur.

It's amusing to me to think that the feds believe they can prevent "another generation of radicalized white men." That's who's out there now. They already exist, are growing in number, and arming for conflict.

I guess it's a good thing no one worries about "another generation" of radicalized black men or lefties.

It's giving in to the power of the gun. It's what these guys want.
posted by spitbull at 8:34 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

Right. They're a) white and b) an actual danger. I'd argue that underlining that you can do whatever the duck you like as long as you are those two things is maybe a bad thing.
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

spitbull: The feds are scared shitless and doing nothing.

I disagree. There's been no evidence to come to that conclusion."

There's the fact that Cliven Bundy and his thugs are still free nearly two years after armed confrontation with the feds. The federal government effectively ceded the taxpayers' land to Cliven and now they've done the same for his sons and their merry goons. Terrorism works, if you're a white conservative.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:38 AM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

OPB: Militia Sympathizer Leads Protest Outside FBI Headquarters
posted by hippybear at 8:49 AM on January 17, 2016

I think there's a sort of twit assumption that all this changes If they start firing shots, but what if it doesn't?
posted by Artw at 8:50 AM on January 17, 2016

spitbull:I disagree. And that's the problem here. The evidence is a lack of action of any sort against violations in progress, even off the reserve itself (like the camera destruction yesterday).

I guess I saw the camera thing differently-- It's another crime they're posing for right on camera, but it's also not worth risking FBI agent lives to catch them in the moment. There's a common refrain in tactical planning known as "never run to your death"-- which is to say rushing in like the movies just gets people killed. A gunfight on a dirt road with no cover over the destruction of a camera isn't a way to win this thing. The things we have on our side are our ability to plan, the choice of when to engage, and the ability to send in highly skilled people who have trained together for exactly these circumstances. Meanwhile, they're untrained amateurs who have to stay alert 24/7 and make food runs to Safeway.

When in the history of this country has law enforcement ever let something like this just carry on unmolested, and even unthreatened, for this long?

I'm not sure of the history of every stand-off like this, but Obama is clearly trying to avoid another Waco. I hate everything these people stand for, I hate watching thugs getting away with being thugs, and I know that no matter how this is handled white terrorist fringe groups will still use it as a recruitment tool, but in the calculus of how this eventually plays out, I'd rather it be something they talk about in nutty youtube videos instead of something the next Timothy McVeigh obsesses on as he builds a car bomb.
posted by bluecore at 9:00 AM on January 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

The next Timothy McVeigh is inevitable, even if they let these guys walk. There's always going to be some guy who thinks that a standoff isn't enough.
posted by mochapickle at 9:17 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm with spitbull and artw. The plan may very well be the plan for very good reasons. It might even be a brilliant plan. But from our point of view it looks indistinguishable from doing nothing and crossing your fingers. The capability exists to turn that camp into a grease spot in 30 seconds or less. Anyone who stepped out side the camp could be arrested, never to return. The camp could be isolated until they all go home or starve. Why don't we want to do any of those things? There are many good reasons, but we're just speculating that someone's thought of all the options and has selected a different one. If they have in fact selected 'treat them with kid gloves' that obviously brings the danger of being seen to favor white people and to encourage taking arms against the government. What's the plan for countering that perception?

Someone from the government needs to get on TV and tell us what the fucking plan is. If it depends on being a secret from the occupiers, it's not a good plan.
posted by ctmf at 9:33 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, because why have a government if they aren't going to do anything? They're playing right into the libertarian talking points with all the silence.
posted by ctmf at 9:36 AM on January 17, 2016

At the very least, I'm surprised they haven't cut power to the place.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:54 AM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

As far as the Freedom Wingnuts are concerned, they've won this thing.

Good! That's fine. Usually allowing the opponent to withdraw while claiming a small victory to save face is preferable to a 100% humiliating defeat. The humiliation requires revenge.

Problem here is, there has been no 'withdraw' part.
posted by ctmf at 9:57 AM on January 17, 2016

If I had to give a reason they didn't cut the power, I'd make this guess: if they cut power it cuts heat and that will either lead to the militia members freezing to death or starting fires to keep warm, both of which are bad outcomes.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 9:57 AM on January 17, 2016

i thought the local power lines were set up so you'd end up cutting the power to many people in the area, not just them
posted by pyramid termite at 10:01 AM on January 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

Actually the neurotic folks who are prepper partying on the refuge, are giving the information gatherers in the government, all the info they need about the leadership, strength, and size, of the movement. There is enough crap in this movement to fertilize the whole county, for some time to come.

This movement is supported by those who want to roll back environmental regulation, using these actors of marginal means and intellect out front. You will find the Republican party at the root of this down deep, with the blanket of crazy covering their well funded fort.

With regard to Utah and the attempted take back...Utah's number one employer is the military, in the form of Hill Air Force Base, followed by the defense industry nestled alongside. Utah lives on the US government. Utah's scrupulous gerrymandering has made the legislature what it is, and the representation at national levels, what it is. So the dollars shout down all other voices in Utah, and the potential dollars. These guys on the refuge live on the Bonanza, and Little House on the Prairie, daydream. They pipe that stuff into the water around here, and that communal daydream makes it possible to destroy a lot of habitat, air, rare and abiding geology that characterizes the state. The Bundy's link to the abiding Utah mindset is clear. What is less obvious is a large population within this state that supports the environment, and has fought for every preserved acre for the last fifty years or so. Actively working for preservation works, we just have to keep it up.

It is obvious to me standards differ with regard to different types of protest. What amazes me is how both neurotic and naive these protestors are. If they turn around government ownership of land, they aren't getting any, anyway, and the boomers, (yes the hated boomers,) many are poor in their retirement and the one thing they can afford to do is, enjoy public lands. The idea that in attempting to step into the American wilderness we will be met with automatic rifles, and guardians of the constitution, that is not the result of proper conservatorship of public lands. Having to ignore oil roads, haze, for-profit infrastructure, lights, the hum of machinery, flies and cow crap, in order to see the American west, is not good conservation of what belongs to all of us.
posted by Oyéah at 10:06 AM on January 17, 2016

The latest in Oregon standoff: Tribe to seek prosecution if relics go missing
posted by Artw at 10:12 AM on January 17, 2016

"We have some deep pockets willing to fund us." -- Ammon Bundy
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:18 AM on January 17, 2016

But from our point of view it looks indistinguishable from doing nothing and crossing your fingers.

Until said plan (if, admittedly, it is a plan) works, and then the Bundy gang leaves and gets quietly arrested with no loss of life and minimal property damage and looking like ineffective fools to everyone who isn't already a hardcore believer. Might look dumb now, might not in the future.

If it depends on being a secret from the occupiers, it's not a good plan.

C'mon, really? That's, like, Not Even Wrong - it's not how conflicts work. Of course you don't let your opponent know your plan ahead of time. Sheesh.


I get and agree with the point that white conservative protesters are being treated differently than PoC liberal/progressive protestors, but I don't think that necessarily means that the correct response is to treat the Bundy gang the way Black Lives Matter/Occupy gets treated. More that BLM/OWS need to be given the same (if not more) slack than these bozos.

And, frankly, I'm of the opinion that a lot of the calls for a stronger response from the government are falling into the same macho bullshit show-of-strength mindset as the occupiers. Not surprising, given American culture, but I think it's certainly worth considering whether we want to engage in the same chest-puffy posturing, or maybe whether it would be useful to get an example of a conflict being resolved without a demonstration of whose balls are bigger.


i thought the local power lines were set up so you'd end up cutting the power to many people in the area, not just them

Yeah, from way upthread, phoque's comment & link definitely suggests that cutting power only to the refuge is not as simple as it might seem.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:23 AM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

Probably about time someone found a workaround for that TBH.
posted by Artw at 10:24 AM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Standing up to armed bullies is not macho bullshit unless it's bullshit.

However I do not favor the use of lethal arms to subdue them and do not think that should be necessary. I do not even necessarily favor immediate intervention of any sort other than to box them in but good.

What bothers me is the lack of a coordinated federal response. They don't have to announce their plans. They don't have to set up a perimeter. But someone in authority needs to assert that authority and make it clear to the public that there will be accountability here. I'm thinking it ought to be Loretta Lynch. But I'd settle for the regional director of the FBI. A simple "we are on top of this, but prefer to avoid armed conflict; however, people will be going to jail for destroying federal property etc." would suffice. You don't need to telegraph any plans.

The perception of a diffident stand both demoralizes the public (and offends many as well, and scares a lot of people including scientists and federal employees who work in the west) and allows the occupiers to persist in a state of utopian fantasy, every day of which enhances their stature no matter which way this ends up. Our options are: 1) the federal government is scared or incompetent with such situations; 2) the federal government is internally divided and frozen or even co-opted and complicit (on some levels, one does wonder about all the law enforcement/militia overlap out there, and the anti-federal tone of even mainstream GOP politics in the west); 3) the federal government is incredibly rational and competent (or evil and totalitarian) and is waiting patiently too take these guys down in a serious way, just you wait it will be glorious and they will look like fools!

It then seems to me a lot of further fantasizing along these various lines is going on rhetorically and emotionally for many segments of the public (witness our own arguments here) and within the militia movement, where all three narratives have strong appeal (that is, the feds are simultaneously capable of being incompetent, co-opted, and evil).

No sane person wants a conflagration. But many sane people wonder what's up with the snack runs.
posted by spitbull at 12:13 PM on January 17, 2016 [5 favorites]

Regarding power, there's also the fact that cutting it will require politely asking the occupiers to drain the pipes so they don't break and flood a building full of un-replaceable artifacts.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:16 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Someone from the government needs to get on TV and tell us what the fucking plan is. If it depends on being a secret from the occupiers, it's not a good plan.

I expect there's an incredible amount of intel being developed from the successors to the "Total Information Awareness" programs, and while these nitwits are holed up somewhere harmless the data-mining of social networks is producing detailed network diagrams of all their supporters, sorted and heat-mapped according to 'threat-level' or some shit. Or at least someone is being paid to do that, regardless of whether they're producing reliable deliverables...

Just throwing that out there...
posted by mikelieman at 12:18 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

But someone in authority needs to assert that authority and make it clear to the public that there will be accountability here.

Why?

Seriously, what good would that do anyone? Helping some armchair quarterbacks on the Internet sleep better at night (except that they'd find some other issue with the assertion)? Unless you're a law enforcement or elected official in that area, you don't really know anything about what the law enforcement or elected officials in that area know or who they're dealing with. And you don't need to.

No sane person wants a conflagration.

someone in authority ought to at least stand up on TV, say so, and point a warning finger at them with a deadline ultimatum after which they will be without food, water, power, or the ability to set one foot out the front door without being taken down by a non-lethal round, an LRAD, or a firehose or an annoyed Alsatian or three wearing body armor.

No sane person indeed.
posted by Etrigan at 12:26 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

None of my proposed options involved lethal force. All minimize the exposure of LE personnel to retaliatory fire (other than the dogs might get shot).
posted by spitbull at 12:27 PM on January 17, 2016

For my part, I'd feel a lot better if I knew the government was going to do something about it if say, some boneheads decided to seize Mt. Ranier National Park. So, some visible activity, -any- visible activity would definitely help me sleep better at night.

If that makes me "an armchair quarterback on the Internet," so be it, but I'm comforted by the -visible- application of the law against blatant lawlessness. The law moving invisibly looks a lot the same as the law not actually moving, from the outside.
posted by Archelaus at 12:31 PM on January 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

There's no such thing as non-lethal, for one.

For another, what do you think the range of a firehose is? I don't know the exact figure, but it's less than the range of any long arm those goobers have.

Look, you clearly want them punished, and you clearly want it to hurt. And that's fine. I don't blame you. But don't try to take the moral high ground of "Oh, I just want someone to tell me what's going on!" on Sunday when you said that you wanted someone to bust this thing up on Saturday.
posted by Etrigan at 12:32 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's called prison, Etrigan, it's where criminals usually go and yes it is a punishment. As to how they get there, I don't particularly care if they like it or not.
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on January 17, 2016

I wish our prisons were more focussed on rehabilitation and not punishment, but that's probably a topic for a different conversation.
posted by hippybear at 12:47 PM on January 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

My sympathies are somewaht limited when it comes to dangerous maniacs, it must be said. I'm mainly looking from keeping them away normal people and discouraging their mates here, them becoming anything other than fuckwits being extremely unlikely.
posted by Artw at 12:52 PM on January 17, 2016

I get and agree with the point that white conservative protesters are being treated differently than PoC liberal/progressive protestors, but I don't think that necessarily means that the correct response is to treat the Bundy gang the way Black Lives Matter/Occupy gets treated. More that BLM/OWS need to be given the same (if not more) slack than these bozos.

Fun fact: These bozos often show up at BLM demos to "provide security" and threaten people with guns and are routinely ignored by law enforcement.
posted by Artw at 12:59 PM on January 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

As for super secret FBI intelligence gathering behind the scenes, even a vague familiarity with the FBI suggests that the strand-offish approach is more likely to these guys being zero-th priority behind the threats presented by muslim extremism (real, imaginary and self-created) and BLM (pretty much entirely imaginary). Left to their own devices they're not going to be keen on doing anything unless theres a chance to be racist or hunt commies.
posted by Artw at 1:02 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:25 PM on January 17, 2016

It's called prison, Etrigan, it's where criminals usually go and yes it is a punishment. As to how they get there, I don't particularly care if they like it or not.

I'm sorry, I was imprecise when responding to someone else. spitbull clearly wants them punished now in ways besides simply going to prison. Some of us would rather not also give them unnecessary martyr status (i.e., another Ruby Ridge).
posted by Etrigan at 1:29 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

I could give a fuck, TBH. If they really want to go out in a blaze of gunfire it's going to be entirely their choice. As for the rest of the crazies they should be locked the fuck up too, not running around playing soldier.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on January 17, 2016

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Maybe they'll be catching Bigfoot next then.
posted by Artw at 1:33 PM on January 17, 2016

I could give a fuck, TBH. If they really want to go out in a blaze of gunfire it's going to be entirely their choice.

And this is why some of us are pretty ok with the "go slow" approach.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:35 PM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is not a "go slow" approach. It's no approach at all.
posted by Artw at 1:40 PM on January 17, 2016

Unless, of course, it's not. I'm not sure we have enough info to say any more than that at the moment.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:47 PM on January 17, 2016

And this is why some of us are pretty ok with the "go slow" approach.

The approach could be on a glacial timescale, but I honestly don't think Bundy and company intend for this to end peacefully. They're going to sit there forever, if need be, goading the authorities at every possibility, until they're forced out. Sooner or later, force of some sort will be required, because that's the only option Bundy will allow.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see the militants give up and walk out of there peacefully. I just don't think that's in their playbook.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:50 PM on January 17, 2016

Happy to be proved wrong, but I'm not seeing any resolution in sight except them wandering off when they get bored, facing no consequences, and trying again on a larger scale next time. The fuckwits who allowed law enforcement to back down at the buddy ranch set the precedent.
posted by Artw at 1:51 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Or as thorzdad says they're allowed to dig in forever and make the place a white supremacist theme park, which isn't desirable either.
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

The police have an obligation not just to presumed libertarian whack jobs in other states, but to the actual workers at the wildlife refuge. The workers at the refuge have a right to go into their offices, sit at their desks, and do their jobs. If a crazy gun-wielding revolutionary came into my office space and threatened me, and started tearing up the place, I would call 911 and I would expect the local cops to show up and at least make an effort to protect me and arrest the intruder.

How exactly is this any different?
posted by newdaddy at 5:27 PM on January 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

This is different because the workers at the refuge are not in immediate danger. The reserve was taken over by Bundy & Co. over a long weekend, when it was empty.

Your office space, even if taken over when empty, would likely still get a quicker response because it is a private space; there's a person (or a corporation) specifically impacted and (likely) calling for help. The Federal government should get to do things on their schedule when it is their land and their employees inconvenienced.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:51 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

To clarify, by "workers at the refuge" I mean the workers who would otherwise be able to go to their jobs at the Reserve, but are on paid leave because of the armed threat.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:53 PM on January 17, 2016

>The reserve was taken over by Bundy & Co. over a long weekend, when it was empty.

If I and my gang of armed thugs broke into a Federal bank when it was empty and made social media posts about how I was liberating it what exactly would be the difference here?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:27 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Federal government should get to do things on their schedule when it is their land and their employees inconvenienced.

Not just the employer, the employees are individuals who have individual rights that are being damaged here. If the threat is that they will be killed if they go into work, that is more than an inconvenience.
posted by newdaddy at 8:41 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some things have happened. One of the occupiers who lives on federal monies by providing foster care for four individuals, just lost that income source. Holy heck, poor kids who fell into that hell.

It is unnerving how much of what used to belong to the American people has been contracted out to private parties. It is unnerving to think public lands will become war zones when more convenient weather sets up. It is comforting to know they will chill with Ted Kaysinski, ultimately. These pawns will get their Aryan Brotherhood tats and life will not be the same for them ever again. They better enjoy their pancake breakfasts, snacks and delusions of mandeur, because the rest of this is going to bore them to death over a long period of time.

America wants it's wild places, that is why we have them. I never go for a drive to look at oil fields, powerlines, or private ranches.
posted by Oyéah at 10:32 PM on January 17, 2016

It's really weird seeing so many mefites criticizing the cops for not being violent enough. Occupying a remote visitor center doesn't seem all that more urgent or disruptive than, say, tree sitters blocking a logging operation. It's definitely less disruptive than occupying a university building.

There isn't any reason the feds need to resolve this situation today, or next week.
posted by ryanrs at 10:45 PM on January 17, 2016 [10 favorites]

Cutting the electricity would require an electrician going up a utility pole. Possibly within sniping distance of the watch tower at the refuge. Maybe no electrician has volunteered. Without a police escort. Which creates a confrontation. As 'a box and a stick and a string and a bear' noted upthread, no electric might mean frozen pipes and subsequent damage to materials in the buildings.

I don't know the terrain and so don't know if a road block is possible. The Bundy gang has earth moving equipment and high clearance vehicles. They could route around a passive road block. (A road block with, for example, jersey barriers.) An active roadblock would require several dozen (I guess) officers working shifts and trained and equipped to deal with the Bundy gang approaching from one side and another gang approaching from the other side. It could be called Operation Sitting Duck.

I don't know why law enforcement sought to take physical assets from Cliven Bundy. Apparently freezing or tapping financial assets wasn't possible. When Wikileaks upset the establishment, they lost access to ISPs and credit card processors. When the establishment cares they act. Turning off the phones and credit cards of the Bundy gang is possible. What is required to legally determine that the Bundy gang is a terrorist organization ? (The Hammonds were prosecuted under an anti-terror law.) And then remind people that supporting a terrorist organization is illegal. But then a cashier at Safeway would have to confront an armed terrorist when law enforcement won't.

Law enforcement understandably does not reveal their current plans. But they have no comment on why they failed to address the Cliven Bundy problem. This could have resulted in Congressional questioning but Benghazi comes first.

Perhaps law enforcement is what it is because the Bundy gang is a normal, average group indistinguishable from anyone else. On the order of 100 million people in the U.S. have guns. And consider them a necessary defense against a tyrannical government. Half the electorate is certain that government is too big. One third to one half of the people in the west believe that federal land should be given to the states. The difference between the Bundy gang and the Republican presidential candidates is that the candidates wear suits.
posted by llc at 10:57 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's definitely less disruptive than occupying a university building.

Except they're armed anti-government militants. Students and tree-sitters tend not to blow up federal buildings, stalk public employees, or go on about heroic honorable last stands that give meaning to their desperate and slightly shoddy lives.

I agree with the current approach of treating them with kid gloves until they obviously fuck up, but this is all about the potential violence of this situation and the n+1 situation.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:32 PM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]

So,
Militant Cited For Driving Without License After Van Overturns


The cameras that were removed (youtube 1min15sec) appear to be;
@WandaKTVZ those were not FBI cams.They were electric company SCADA cams, pointed at electrical substations. Not pointed at the road.


Ryan and Ammon Bundy's presence at the compound was conspicuously absent today and they canceled stuff for tomorrow and people are starting to ask questions.

Little op-ed story,
Before the Bundy gang, I 'occupied' Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
posted by phoque at 11:40 PM on January 17, 2016 [2 favorites]

U.S. Senator Martin Heinrich (D-N.M.) sent a letter to U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch looking for answers and action.
posted by phoque at 11:49 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's less "I want more violence against these guys from the cops" and more "I want SOME VISIBLE DEMONSTRATION that this isn't gonna go on like the Cliven Bundy thing, where they just get to do whatever the (@#% they want, point guns at people with impunity, and generally act like they run the universe."

I want some demonstration that I'm actually in a society where laws actually do matter, and the bad guys face actual charges, because absent that, what's the point of the "nation of laws" we claim to be?

I don't mind if that demonstration boils down to "yes, we have a plan, please wait for it" from an official FBI type spokesman, as that would be at least an admission that they're doing something. I'd even be willing to wait a few weeks for a visible sign of their plans after that. I don't care if that response is violent (I'd prefer it not be, but that's because I care about the guys sent in to implement the plan, and not because I have any scruples about what happens to a bunch of armed insurrectionist yahoos who think they run the show). What we have right now, though, can be summarized as "the lawbreakers seem to be getting away with it again, and there's no reassurance from any leadership that this state of affairs won't go the same was as it did on the Bundy ranch."

That last, I find pretty unacceptable.
posted by Archelaus at 11:49 PM on January 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

If the cameras were public electrical utility equipment, then tampering is criminal mischief in the first degree, a felony in Oregon.
posted by JackFlash at 12:03 AM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Archelaus, your desire for law & order and for 'something must be done' is understandable, but not a compelling reason to instigate a gunfight.

If anything, stretching this out makes the US attorney's job easier.
posted by ryanrs at 12:40 AM on January 18, 2016

The point I'm making is that even if you don't believe that the Bundy Bunch are doing damage to the refuge itself, or its employees, or its visitors, the wildlife itself, the artifacts and by extension the Native tribe they belong to, the neighbors, the townspeople, the people generally who paid for that resource through taxes and believe in its mission - even if you don't believe any of that, you should be able to see what a horrendous precedent this is setting.

I live in Baltimore and I saw what was done to peaceful protesters here, to people who have, in my perception, legitimate grievances. I also saw the murder rate in Baltimore skyrocket, and something like 75% of that was gun violence. If people in American cities look up at CNN and make the obvious connection that political movements can get what they want if the set up camp somewhere prominent with a lot of guns, we're in for some bad times.
posted by newdaddy at 3:00 AM on January 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

(And I'm not intending to credit Ammon and his group with being a political movement up above - probably something like "consensus delusion" would be more accurate.)
posted by newdaddy at 3:08 AM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I live in Baltimore and I saw what was done to peaceful protesters here, to people who have, in my perception, legitimate grievances. I also saw the murder rate in Baltimore skyrocket, and something like 75% of that was gun violence.

So meeting protesters with violence leads to more violence, and you're concerned that not meeting protesters with violence will lead to more violence?
posted by Etrigan at 4:57 AM on January 18, 2016

you should be able to see what a horrendous precedent this is setting.

That's the same justification I've heard for kicking out every undocumented immigrant and building a wall at the border. No more sanctuary cities; we're a nation of laws, so enforce the law already.

That's the same justification I've heard for shutting down every marijuana dispensary in states with recreational use is laws. It's still a schedule I drug and we're a nation of laws, so enforce the law already.

That's the same justification I've heard against new gun control laws, criminals already have guns because current laws aren't being enforced. We don't need new laws, just enforce the ones that are already on the books.

When people say "enforce the law" what I hear is "enforce the law against THOSE people." And who THOSE people are depends on who's griping about law enforcement. THOSE people are the people outside of their own racial, socio-economic, or political identity, it's the group that's not part of their tribe.

The "horrendous precedent" is what happened in Waco and Baltimore and Ferguson when enforcing the law took back seat to good policy and common sense, when a law enforcement response was allowed to escalate into a military response. As much as I'd like to see all these nutters brought to justice for this petty seditious bullshit, patience and de-escalation tactics are important law enforcement tools. I'm glad the FBI are giving these tactics a chance even though, to me, the Bundy gang are clearly THOSE people.
posted by peeedro at 4:58 AM on January 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Indian Country Today has been running great coverage of the Malheur occupation from a Native American perspective. Here's where it's all indexed.
posted by spitbull at 5:57 AM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

When people say "enforce the law" what I hear is "enforce the law against THOSE people." And who THOSE people are depends on who's griping about law enforcement. THOSE people are the people outside of their own racial, socio-economic, or political identity, it's the group that's not part of their tribe.


It would be hard to intentionally create more of a straw-man argument than that. It's clearly not what I said.

If you look several hundred entries upthread, you can see where I said then, as I'm saying now - this has nothing to do with who's on whose 'side'. This has to do with allowing guns to become part of allowed political protests, and what the predictable and horrible outcome will clearly be.

We're celebrating Martin Luther King day today (well, some of us are, and some of us still have to work) and in my perception, one of the big reasons why is because he chose non-violent forms of protest, he stuck it out and showed that it could be made to work, and for half a century America has followed his example. We are allowing these guys to do exactly the opposite thing - and it doesn't matter in the least if we have the absolute best of intentions in doing that.
posted by newdaddy at 7:24 AM on January 18, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yes, somehow on Metafilter, armed terrorists hiding behind children as human shields and threatening violence against unarmed federal employees are merely civil disobedient protestors doing exactly what MLK or Occupy Wall Street or Black Lives Matter did, except with more Country Living style.

I do not favor killing anyone. I do favor disarming them and restricting their ability to resupply or move around freely outside of the buildings.

What's that you say, someone might get hurt? Not if the Bundy gang puts down its guns they won't. Simple.
posted by spitbull at 7:44 AM on January 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

The civils rights movement gained support with each protest. This movement is headed in the opposite direction. Lots of folks I know in the rural west have gone from tepid support to outrage in the past two weeks. Allowing this to go on has helped the larger political equation in play.
posted by humanfont at 7:51 AM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

They're not legitimate protesters, they're terrorists. The difference is that they're armed and people are afraid of them killing to promote their agenda.

If we're going to use military force on legitimate, peaceful protests, we shouldn't hesitate if they're armed.

Otherwise, yes, the message is, "If you march WITH GUNS we won't attack you..."

Next time a cop kills a kid, do you want the protesters to carry rifles? Because that's the precedent being set. Cops will beat the shit out of UNARMED protesters, but won't if they're open carrying.

Cut off the electricity, let them freeze to death in silence or drop a missile from a drone. As far as I'm concerned, these seditious terrorists have rejected our Nation of Laws. Let's accommodate them.
posted by mikelieman at 7:51 AM on January 18, 2016

I've been idly wondering... does an average American citizen have any legal means to compel the government to enforce the law? It's a public national wildlife refuge that's been stolen from the people, from me. What if I wanted to visit? Maybe I'm particularly concerned about the wildlife preservation and educational mission? I'm being deprived of access to a public resource by a bunch of armed men. Can I petition the government to help me regain it? Do the courts have any sway here, or would it require legislative action?
posted by Nelson at 7:52 AM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

These people are not equivalent to BLM or Occupy. Can we stop making this moronic assertion?
posted by Artw at 8:04 AM on January 18, 2016 [12 favorites]

Cops will beat the shit out of UNARMED protesters, but won't if they're open carrying.

That depends entirely on the skin colour of who's carrying guns. If BLM protesters show up with guns, they will be mowed down in the streets.

It's Guns + White that equals Hands Off, not guns by themselves.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:27 AM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Perspective from an Indian Coutry Today writer:

As Wikipedia puts it, the Malheur Indian Reservation was terminated after "ranchers and settlers had started to graze their herds on the best meadowlands of the Malheur Indian Reservation, and the U.S. Army had been reluctant to remove the trespassers."

Reluctance marks U.S. law enforcement again. The New York Times reported on January 4, "no effort was made to keep the occupiers from coming and going as they pleased." The Guardian reported on January 5 that federal authorities were considering plans to cut off power and place the Refuge under siege.

posted by idiopath at 9:38 AM on January 18, 2016

With this perspective, we could look at failure to enforce as a form of passive aggressive activism.
posted by idiopath at 9:39 AM on January 18, 2016

I originally suspected that the videos complaining about receiving dildos were briar patching, trying to get more expensive items that they're returning for Amazon credit, but it's unclear if that'd work.

Note: A-to-z claims for gifts purchased from a third-party seller must be filed by the original purchaser, not the gift returner. If you need to file a claim for a gift return, please contact the original purchaser or Amazon Customer Service.

posted by zamboni at 11:36 AM on January 18, 2016

So apparently the inaction by any type of law enforcement has emboldened this crowd to begin staging another showdown.
posted by localhuman at 11:46 AM on January 18, 2016

Who could've predicted the official response on this would've encouraged similar actions elsewhere?
posted by newdaddy at 11:48 AM on January 18, 2016

With this perspective, we could look at failure to enforce as a form of passive aggressive activism.

Some combination of that and just waiting long enough that it becomes someone else's problem.
posted by Artw at 11:51 AM on January 18, 2016

So apparently the inaction by any type of law enforcement has emboldened this crowd to begin staging another showdown.

They're going to keep pushing and pushing until they get the martyrdom they crave.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:54 AM on January 18, 2016

So apparently the inaction by any type of law enforcement has emboldened this crowd to begin staging another showdown.

Note how they somehow manage to claim bragging rights for being oppressed by the "Feds" despite no law enforcement action against them whatsoever. If you think avoiding confrontations is denying them a rallying cry you've sadly underestimated their capacity for bullshit.
posted by Artw at 11:54 AM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

So apparently the inaction by any type of law enforcement has emboldened this crowd to begin staging another showdown.

Well, now that ol' LaVoy has lost his foster parent paycheck, he probably has a ton of time on his hands.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:07 PM on January 18, 2016

AGameOfMoans: If I and my gang of armed thugs broke into a Federal bank when it was empty and made social media posts about how I was liberating it what exactly would be the difference here?

The Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco is right by the Embarcadero BART station and other light rail lines. It's surrounded by businesses, including retail space. It's close to the Ferry Building. If armed people took over the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco they'd be disrupting the life of the city significantly. The Federal government could not take weeks or even days to create a response.

It's possible that some of the other Federal Reserve Banks and/or their branches are more isolated, but none of them are going to be near as isolated as Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.


newdaddy: Not just the employer, the employees are individuals who have individual rights that are being damaged here. If the threat is that they will be killed if they go into work, that is more than an inconvenience.

Which is why the Federal government is not making them go to work. (Or, likely, directing them not to go to work).

That would, however, be one way to escalate this. If one of those employees reported to work and was captured or killed. Or even if any person went to the Refuge as they once were able to and were captured or killed. But until that happens these people are not actually in danger.

This is one reason I'm hesitant to call the armed thugs "terrorists." This is certainly not a peaceful protest, but they're also not (yet) shooting people, setting off bombs, etc. I don't want to go anywhere near them, but they are also not putting me (or anyone else) in active danger. I definitely do not want to create a precedent that the mere act of holding a gun in a isolated location counts as terrorism.

The idea that the federal government is creating a dangerous precedent by treating armed, isolated, encamped people differently than unarmed people does not make any sense to me. That is not being created, it is real. Armed people are more dangerous.

Everyone knows guns can be used for intimidation, to make people take you seriously. Reasonable people choose to protest unarmed because they're trying to not escalate the situation unreasonably. And many laws in most jurisdictions acknowledge what guns do, which is why there are different (or additional) charges for the same crimes when committed with guns.

I want to see these idiots removed, but I would prefer that they're not killed in the process. I'd prefer that the Federal buildings - along with irreplaceable Native artifacts, fossilized animal bones, etc. - not be destroyed in the process.

These idiots are committing crimes, but they're not capital crimes, so there's no reason to go in shooting. That is how these things should work. The federal government is modeling good behavior; I'd like law enforcement officers around the country to learn this, rather than that we can and should kill people when we disagree with them.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:10 PM on January 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

They are terrorists because they are deliberately instilling fear.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:12 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

They're armed and threatening violence for political policy change that favors them, personally. That's the textbook definition of terrorism, even if they aren't actively shooting anyone right at this exact moment.
posted by Archelaus at 12:17 PM on January 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

I am using the FBI definition of domestic terrorism as linked above.

I believe they meet the second and third criteria, but am questioning the first: "Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law."
posted by mountmccabe at 12:19 PM on January 18, 2016

I feel my statement to still be 100% true under that linked definition, since they are certainly attempting to influence both civilians and government by armed coercion, involve activities dangerous to human life, and are within the US.
posted by Archelaus at 12:22 PM on January 18, 2016

The federal government is modeling good behavior; I'd like law enforcement officers around the country to learn this, rather than that we can and should kill people when we disagree with them.

Oh come of it. The lesson of giving armed white men a free pass was well and truly learned at the Bundy ranch, and has in no way extended to giving unarmed black teens a shred of mercy. Lessons need to be unlearned here.

Agreeing or disagreeing with the armed mob has nothing to do with it.
posted by Artw at 12:25 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Militant left the siege, crashed his van, and was simply cited for driving without a license. The two truck driver gave him a ride back to the occupied refuge. Oh, and Ryan Bundy made an 11 hour trip to Utah without issue.

This is beyond ridiculous. These guys have won through complete federal inaction. They'll be taking over something else very soon, will it be another isolated science building? Or will it be a office building? Yosemite National Park? A Social Security office maybe? We'll find out.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:36 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

regon standoff: Harney County group felt betrayed by occupation, but working to take up cause

I like to think that when this bullsgit is over these six idiots will have garbage thrown at them wherever they go in town.
posted by Artw at 12:38 PM on January 18, 2016

These idiots are committing crimes, but they're not capital crimes, so there's no reason to go in shooting. That is how these things should work. The federal government is modeling good behavior

Fine - then the FBI should select any of the nonlethal methods at their disposal and use them. Turn off the lights, turn off the power, film them constantly, ist all the existing charges against them, cancel their cable, cut off their internet, use tear gas dropped from drones, send around some Boston Dynamics droids, play Eminen really loud, do something. At this point the Feds haven't done so much a call them names.
posted by newdaddy at 12:41 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

The theory is that the moment any of that happens the chuckleheads will start firing shots resulting in their execution, and:

a) we're supposed to feel bad about that.

And

b) This will trigger the rise of the chucklehead army.

TBH I think there's a good chance they'll fold given any actual opposition, if they don't anything that happens to them as a result is their own damn fault, and no, I don't think we should enforce law selectively because they might have mates.
posted by Artw at 12:50 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also this is not Waco. These are some over privileged idiots with guns play acting, not a death cult actively seeking suicide.
posted by Artw at 12:52 PM on January 18, 2016

People said the same thing about Waco before things went pear shaped.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:54 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

No they fucking didn't. The idiots at Waco were known to be in a doomsday cult and actually shot at people.
posted by Artw at 12:56 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also how are these guys managing to be simultaneously the equivalent of peaceful protests AND a heavily armed death cult, depending on which way we are arguing that they should get to do whatever the fuck they like? Some astounding cognitive dissonance here.
posted by Artw at 1:01 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

Perhaps there are shades of grey to be grappled with, much like life in general.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:05 PM on January 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

There are many, many shades of actually fucking doing something here to be explored, yes.
posted by Artw at 1:06 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

There sure are, and all the suggestions that they aren't being explored are basically argument from ignorance.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:11 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's not a logical fallacy to state: we have no evidence that any options other than "do nothing" are being explored, and that frustrates us.

If you -have- evidence that has not been presented in this thread, I do encourage you to post it.
posted by Archelaus at 1:13 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't have evidence of particular actions being taken, but I'm pretty sure that keeping me briefed on specific strategy and actions should be fairly low on the priority list of the folks actually dealing with this.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:18 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Keep on believing.
posted by Artw at 1:28 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm just going to keep on withholding judgement until we have actual information, if that's alright with you.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:30 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

The thing is we have a lot of information. Malheur has now been occupied for two weeks. And the same seditionists who took it over are now going to occupy other property. This state of affairs is not OK. I'd dearly love to believe the FBI is on top of this and will somehow bring in justice safely, if not swiftly. I sure hope so. But there is zero evidence for that.
posted by Nelson at 1:43 PM on January 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bundynomics, panned in the New Yorker.
posted by newdaddy at 1:47 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

What's that old saying? The presence of inaction doesn't imply the inaction of presence or something like that?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:47 PM on January 18, 2016

I was two seconds from posting that NY'er article! It's worth reading:

But the reclamation movement isn’t deluded just about the West’s reliance on the federal government. It also has a completely outdated vision of the Western economy. In its view, land is valuable primarily because of what you can take out of it—minerals, oil and gas, timber, food. But, while these industries were crucial to the development of the West, their importance is shrinking. Grazing on federal land, for instance, accounts for less than one per cent of total income and employment in most of the region, according to the economist Thomas Power. Meanwhile, recreation and tourism have become ever more important.

I was just researching some camping/canoeing up in Montana this summer and was saddened to read about the presence and impact of grazing cattle right next to the Missouri River, courtesy of an old and longstanding BLM agreement. This grazing activity is literally leaving its mark: eroding the land next to the river, polluting the water, and destroying mile after mile of cottonwood and the ecology those trees supported. The feds have had to put barbed wire around camping areas to keep the cattle out.

It's no secret to anyone that it's hugely damaging, but the BLM continues to allow it because it's what they agreed on years ago.
posted by mochapickle at 2:02 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm never gonna be too critical of somebody who takes a wait and see approach on breaking news, frankly we need more of that. But I do want to remind you again the reason people are so skeptical something will be done is the Bundy folks pulled something like this before and it turned out there was in fact no master plan to eventually enforce the law.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:07 PM on January 18, 2016 [6 favorites]

At some point we're going to be speculating on the possibility of the FBI building a timachine to create an alternate timeline where they acted when they should have, IE about a week ago.
posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on January 18, 2016

hell, the reason the Malheur refuge isn't tribal land was simple and blatant failure to enforce the law, this is an old old pattern
posted by idiopath at 2:43 PM on January 18, 2016

Artw: At some point we're going to be speculating on the possibility of the FBI building a timachine to create an alternate timeline where they acted when they should have, IE about a week ago.

About a week ago there were some indications that maybe they were growing tired of it and wanted to go home ("I've got cattle I need to tend to...") In the meantime the FBI has set up a command center and has checked to make sure heavy weapons aren't missing from the National Guard armory. I'm guessing undercover agents went to the pressers to get a gauge on militia members and their armaments. I agree that I'd like this to be over, but it's no easy task to raid a 187k acre wildlife reserve when the militants have a bird watching tower with sniper rifles watching over the whole region for miles.

I feel for the FBI, because there's a lot of potential for failure, and a very small window for victory:

If everyone in the militia dies, it's seen as a failure and the next Waco.
If the FBI agents die, it's seen as a failure and the next Benghazi.
If the militia gets arrested but the refuge buildings burn in the process, destroying all the artifacts, it's seen as a failure.
If they don't do things fast enough, it's seen as a failure.
If the Bundys get away altogether, it's a failure.
If they go through all this but don't have enough serious crimes they can prove in a court of law to lock them up for good, it's a failure.
posted by bluecore at 3:10 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh look, a recruiting spree for future standoffs.

I think it can be safely said that the law enforcement strategy here has been a failure, past tense, no further information required to gauge that.
posted by Artw at 3:11 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

What would have been a better strategy that would have resulted in the outcome you want?

Sniping them two weeks ago? Setting up a security cordon? Sending in a swat team?
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:17 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

NOT LETTING THEM PICK UP THE MAIL WOULD BE THE EQUIVALENT OF THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
posted by Artw at 3:22 PM on January 18, 2016 [8 favorites]

Bill Clinton wanted to wait out the Branch Davidians. Janet Reno went to him and said she was tired of waiting. That ended that way.

This is a different situation, but even then, Reno waited for ~50 days before she lost her patience. Two years later, Timothy McVeigh did this thing as retaliation.

How exactly would a raid play out in your mind, Artw, and exactly how would it not lead to a similar response?

Can you even possibly remotely see exactly why things are playing out long and slow like they are?
posted by hippybear at 3:28 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Dude, they are going on fucking speaking tours. There's no "waiting out" here, responsibility has been abdicated.
posted by Artw at 3:31 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

we need to say no to more military hardware for cops, that's for fucking certain. They've demonstrated when they'll use it and when they won't, and it's basically just there for show and to harass unarmed civilians.
posted by Artw at 3:36 PM on January 18, 2016 [11 favorites]

Dude, they are going on fucking speaking tours.

David Koresh was making radio broadcasts from within the compound while the siege was going on.
posted by hippybear at 3:50 PM on January 18, 2016

Did the radio waves get on a bus and go to Safeway for wheaties on a regular basis?
posted by Artw at 3:52 PM on January 18, 2016 [15 favorites]

Hippybear, I'm sorry, I consider myself your friend, but I've got to say, respectfully, I don't think your thinking is not right on this issue. Crazy guy Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building full of innocents, and therefore, we should __________.

There's nothing you could fill in the blank with that would remotely make sense, ethically or morally or otherwise. Timothy McVeigh may very well have made exactly the same decisions regardless of the outcome with the Branch Davidians or anywhere else. And even if this specific thing is the only possible thing that would have set him off, it's wrong to allow that to cause us to disregard the things we know are right. Some guy blows up a building, and THEREFORE, we should stop enforcing the law?
posted by newdaddy at 3:53 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

You are obviously very invested in this tack of discussion, that there should be bloodshed at the compound initiated by the Federal government. There is nothing left to say to you in this thread.
posted by hippybear at 3:53 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't think your thinking is not right on this issue.

Thank you. I don't think my thinking is not right, either.
posted by hippybear at 3:55 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

newdaddy, how about "learn from history"? That makes sense to me from an ethical/moral/otherwise point of view.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:56 PM on January 18, 2016

Fuck giving hypothetical Timothy McVeigh a vote on this. If the asshole is out there plotting to blow things up he's going to be plotting to blow things up.

And you are right, I am vastly unsympathetic towards your mates with guns and would not consider it unfortunate at all if they managed to get themselves shot.

Frankly I don't think that's going to happen, except by accident: They are likely to back down the moment they get some pushback - and it is that pushback I am calling for, not "bloodshed at the compound initiated by the Federal government".

They need to go to prison, instead they are being give tacit approval to beseige other locations. This reprrsents a massive faliure for everyone except armed maniacs.
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a large difference between raiding them, and not even bothering to inconvenience them or discourage them in the slightest.

How big does the group have to grow or how long do they have to remain there before ANY action is taken? The larger they grow and the longer they are unchallenged, the bolder they will grow. These guys actually believe everything that they are saying - If not all of them, certainly most of them do. The more what they believe is actually reinforced by the reality of the non-response, the more you can expect to see the ranks grow and the belief solidify. And what then? Do you really think this stops here, and doesn't move on to something larger? What do you do when the risks of death and danger to everyone involved and nearby have actually drastically increased? Because I don't think you can say that this just remains at this stalemate in perpetuity. Remember, these guys came from the Bundy ranch - This takeover is a direct result of that situation basically being a victory for the Bundys. There's no way that they just accept a victory here and not take it further.

As far as what can be done: AT MINIMUM they stop the damned mail, as has been mentioned multiple times, and checkpoint for people going in/out. I understand why they aren't pulling the power, given the complications there.... But at minimum, shipments should absolutely be stopped. It's not just food and dildos being sent their way, its totally legal for them to get tons of ammo there, thus stockpiling for an eventual larger massacre.

I know I don't have a ton of answers, and I get why there hasn't been any sort of raid - Short of sending in Magneto, there isn't a particularly great way of doing that without a lot of death. What I know for sure is that I'd rather the conversation be about what should be done next or beyond, as opposed to what should be done AT ALL. Unfortunately, the lack of visible action is doing a good job of playing into the idea that the 2nd amendment is all about standing up against the feds, and that you can totally get away with taking pretty much anything and making up your own definition of law as long you want as long as you have enough armed white dudes.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:06 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

but I'm pretty sure that keeping me briefed on specific strategy and actions should be fairly low on the priority list of the folks actually dealing with this.

It damn well better get higher on that list. Keeping the public informed is one of the things public servants are supposed to DO. I'll give them a pass for fast-breaking emergencies, but at this point, this is not that.
posted by ctmf at 4:06 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Koresh actually left the compound frequently prior to the siege, the ATF acted the way they did because of bad information on that. One of the biggest lessons of Waco is take the opportunity to arrest people when you can and you might avoid a siege situation.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:07 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fanaticism knows no ethics, it is a form of mental illness. Transpiring at the Mahleur National Bird Refuge is ninteenth century cosplay with some modern day weapons and costumes. They don't think straight, I hope they can't sboot straight. Utah has many nineteenth century thinkers. Some of it is totally agrarian and charming, appropriate to small communities and really to anyone who wants to indulge in it. But these guys can't separate fantasy cosplay from reality. They are a danger to themselves and passers by.

Oregon should order mental health assessments, court order them, and if the findings warrant, then involuntary commitment. Tranquilizer darts. They wake up cosplaying One Flew Over the Coocoo's Nest. Get Ken Kesey on their asses.
posted by Oyéah at 4:17 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mod note: Couple comments removed, let's just cool it a little in here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:21 PM on January 18, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Tranquilizer darts

Send in Solid Snake, or any of the other Snakes- Situation resolved. Hell, these guys seem like they would totally fit in with the existing characters in their cartoonish extremism, and their beliefs make just as much sense as the plotlines.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:24 PM on January 18, 2016

I'll give them a pass for fast-breaking emergencies,

And that's being verrrry generous. We have a public affairs group whose whole job in a reactor accident scenario is keeping the public informed. They have deadlines to meet for being ready and giving press conferences. I believe the first one is less than one hour from the incident, with regular ones after that.

This is no reactor accident, so the info is not as urgent, sure. But being "too busy" to talk to the public is not a thing. Especially not two weeks in.
posted by ctmf at 4:24 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't know if a raid is appropriate, I appreciate the need for restraint. But I do think a blockade would be appropriate. Don't allow people to drive in or out. Figure out how to cut the power. Block communications. These are all things that can be done with little or no risk to life.
posted by Nelson at 4:32 PM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]

So that guy who was arrested, then let out on $10,000 bond, is he back at the occupation?
posted by dirigibleman at 4:40 PM on January 18, 2016

Beaver State brothers raise over 26K in 'Go Home' Bundy campaign
posted by Artw at 4:51 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]

'I still don’t believe it': Hammond family feels forgotten in Oregon standoff
posted by Artw at 4:52 PM on January 18, 2016

County Where Oregon Standoff Rages Is Most Government-Dependent In State
posted by Artw at 4:55 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

You know I m really of two minds on what should be done on this and one of the great reasons I like Metafilter is the fantastic, generally well reasoned arguments on both sides. So huge thank yous to everyone here for maintaining my general level of perplexity on the issue. This would be magnitudes easier if I simply watched Fox ;)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:57 PM on January 18, 2016 [7 favorites]

Transpiring at the Mahleur National Bird Refuge is ninteenth century cosplay

18th Century actually
posted by BungaDunga at 6:42 PM on January 18, 2016

I'll just leave this here.
posted by newdaddy at 9:27 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

When the Bundy Brigade blockades the Bay Bridge at rush hour, yeah, the California Highway Patrol will show up with riot gear on and bolt cutters in hand to clear the road.
posted by notyou at 9:37 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Tranquilizer darts.

Not sure if this was a serious suggestion, but tranquilizer darts are an action movie thing, not something you'd ever use on humans. The difference in dosage between unconsciousness and death is very small.

The last time a police force tried to use drugs to counter armed terrorists in a building, it ended very badly indeed.
posted by ryanrs at 10:59 PM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

Via this Yahoo Answers thread on tranquilizer darts and wikipedia, leaving aside pharmacology, tranquilizer CO2 air guns don't have the range to reliably hit a target at more then 40-60 yards, and .22 blank-powered guns don't have more than an 80 yard range where they're effective. With excellent conditions. A hypothetical big heavy dart usable at a long range would be functionally equivalent to a bullet as in it would grievously wound the victim on contact.

Also, antelope don't shoot back with conventional rifles with greater effective ranges. And humans won't hang around in front of windows once you've darted one.

Bring pharmacology back into it, the sedatives and tranquilizers apparently take some time to work, in the cases where they're not killing the victims via overdose.

Apparently many if not all tear gasses are basically dispersed via something that behaves like a firework, using a pyrotechnic agent to spew out the powdered solid irritant and obscuring smoke. And sometimes burning down the structure the victims are in. As per Waco.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:39 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, I'm going to stop commenting in this thread, because I feel as though people are willing to attribute the worst motives to me here.

But honestly, I don't see Ammon Bundy wandering home to feed his cattle in a few months. Why would he? He's got control of a territory, men willing to do his bidding, family gathered around. People rushing to join his cause, a local population cowed and afraid of him, someone (apparently) willing to send him capital, no real challenge from local law enforcement, and his own deranged worldview. He's building his own airport. He's halfway to a Mad Max warlord.

The feds aren't going to do anything until after the elections, is my cynical guess. We'll come back to this thread in six or ten years and Ammon Bundy will still be there, his territory enlarged and a model for the next dozen or so to follow his example.
posted by newdaddy at 2:51 AM on January 19, 2016

I'll just leave this here.

I'm getting just a blank page. What was it?
posted by NoMich at 5:07 AM on January 19, 2016

It's a tweet from Brotha B (@blakedontcrack):

The California Highway Patrol had riot gear on & shotguns out all for Black ppl peacefully sitting down & blocking traffic on the Bay Bridge
posted by Room 641-A at 5:56 AM on January 19, 2016

Cars are more important to most people than wildlife, I'm not surprised.
(also, racism)
posted by entropicamericana at 6:18 AM on January 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, if the terrorists in Oregon were inconveniencing White people, then this would have been over long ago.
posted by mikelieman at 6:46 AM on January 19, 2016

I know from personal experience that if they continue to occupy the wildlife refuge into the summer, they will be eaten alive by mosquitos.
posted by hippybear at 6:57 AM on January 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

Ok, I lied. One more. Ursula Le Guin writes a letter to The Oregonian. (She's my hero.)
posted by newdaddy at 6:57 AM on January 19, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yeah, if the terrorists in Oregon were inconveniencing White people, then this would have been over long ago.

Have you met any birders ever?
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on January 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

TPM: The Oregon Militia Is Turning Out To Be Its Very Own Worst Enemy
posted by hippybear at 7:14 AM on January 19, 2016 [5 favorites]

"a once in a lifetime opportunity," Ammon Bundy said. The next time such an opportunity arises, he said: "It'll be war."
posted by newdaddy at 7:37 AM on January 19, 2016

Ok, I lied. One more. Ursula Le Guin writes a letter to The Oregonian. (She's my hero.)

I love this comment:

Wake up, The Oregonian recommended we vote for Obama in 2008 and 2012... one of the most leftwing radical Presidents in History.

Like the person has never heard of FDR. You want to talk radical left wing?
posted by Talez at 8:20 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't see Ammon Bundy wandering home to feed his cattle in a few months.

You won't because Ammon Bundy has no cattle and is not a rancher. He runs a truck repair business in downtown Phoenix. His brother Ryan is not a rancher. He works in construction in Cedar City, UT. For all their bluster about cowboy freedom, these are just urban cowboys.
posted by JackFlash at 9:02 AM on January 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Conrad Wilson (of OPB) tweeted the meeting / instruction seminar, the Bundy's held at the Crystal Crane hot springs resort last night. Crane is a mainly Mormon town of around 130 people. (small OPB article)

But this quote really ... I feel some not so nice urges;
"You know how many endangered species we're dealing with on our ranch right now? Zero, because it doesn't matter any more," Ryan Bundy.

I would like the government officials to maybe organize another hot spring meeting but this time invite a constitutional historian, a constitutional legal scholar to tell some stories and illuminate the facts. Then perhaps some biologists, like those who work at the refuge, could give a slide presentation on some of their work and explain how sustainable management leads to greater and healthier outputs. The misinformation needs to be countered. A list of pending charges that is increased everyday would be nice too. If the only plan is sitting back and waiting for public opinion to push them out ... at least advocate your position and present knowledgeable correction and don't let citizens be strong armed and defrauded by these gangsters.
(Semi related: My Dad Worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, and He Knows What Happens When Ranchers Get Their Way)

Also, from newdaddy's link Brian Cavalier aka "fluffy unicorn, budda, etc" who was arrested in Arizona a week or so ago, appears to be back in the fold.

The GOHOME campaign is actually a neat idea, gathering contribution for organizations that are directly opposed to the Bundy's goals. So the longer they remain the more they contribute to their demise. Because the deep pockets comment he makes in the interview in this RT article is disturbing.

The guys and gal from the Center for Biological Diversity have secured a nearby camping spot. They make me smile.
posted by phoque at 9:50 AM on January 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

"You know how many endangered species we're dealing with on our ranch right now? Zero, because it doesn't matter any more," Ryan Bundy.

I was going to say "You'd think a guy whose livelihood is based on an animal that only exists because of human agriscience would see the value of protecting species," but I don't think he's even mildly aware of that.
posted by Etrigan at 9:55 AM on January 19, 2016

These guys livelihoods all depend heavily on government assistance, and they want to eliminate the government but somehow keep that, so applying logic or consistency to their wants and desires is not really going to work.
posted by Artw at 10:00 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

You won't because Ammon Bundy has no cattle and is not a rancher.

So, literally All Hat, No Cattle, eh? Priceless.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:06 AM on January 19, 2016 [13 favorites]

This mindset of the squatters at Mahleur, is endemic along the margins of Utah society. Mainstream Utahans tolerate family members thus afflicted, and talk about associates who are "big preppers," who spend every weekend possible stocking their wilderness cabins for the end times. Mainstream Utahans know, are related to, and in some cases have escaped from cultists who sink into a mindframe of exclusivity, earthly divinity, and feel they are above the law. Finicum and the Bundys have exported this tired show out of state because it is not tolerated here. I am sure there are many who would like to prove me wrong, but the local power structure has a lot at stake proving normalcy, attracting business, and even more lucrative government contracts, which absolutely power Utah's economy.

Many Americans long for the wide open spaces of our nation whether this is desert, water canyons, mountainland, prairie, forest, streamside, lakeside, or oceanside. Huge tracts of land are set aside for this with views as a part of the package. Americans pay to graze, mine, put up power poles, and fence, with supposedly responsible stewardship of public lands. As it is it is difficult to maintain the character of lands with financially attractive resources. So, when people offer to outright steal access, many Americans stand in direct opposition to this.

The people of Harney County should carefully examine the tradition that Levoy Finicum, comes from. He is a citizen of Colorado City, Arizona, sister city to Hilldale, Utah. This is the home area of the Fundamentalist sect whose trust is currently managed by the US government, as the sect has to evenly redistribute land and monies to ex-members. The sect's leader and prophet is in prison in Texas on numerous charges, stemming from the taking of underage women into polygamous marriages.

I doubt that Finicum has even a high school diploma, from a state accredited school, anyway. What you Oregonians are seeing in your community, is common behavior of Utah style fanaticism, which Utah disavows, is bored with, and does not admire. It bears the vaguest resemblance to sympathy for what farmers and ranchers live, everywhere, but it is just play acting.

Most Utahans are in love with the beauty of their state and have to work like crazy to keep it so, in spite of enormous pressure brought on by the richer, and wishing to be richer bretheren, and the plans they so easily execute, with relatives in the legislature.

When public lands go private, bird habitat goes. Best of luck, Harney County.
posted by Oyéah at 10:50 AM on January 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

...the meeting / instruction seminar, the Bundy's held at the Crystal Crane hot springs resort last night.

Please tell me they won't be allowed back in the refuge, after driving out to conduct a seminar. That they'll be apprehended somewhere on their drive back. Please?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:22 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sorry Thorzdad, but looks like he made it back unscathed.

Justice in the West has a double standard for protesters

It looks like the monied interest might be found here;
Corporate Leadership Lessons from Malhuer National Wildlife Refuge

Center for Biological Diversity supplies;
Candace stood down #bundymilitia Santilli yesterday w peace and principle. And she brought snacks.
posted by phoque at 12:07 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Harney County community meeting set for tonight (1/19) at 7pm PST. (This is a real community meeting and not the fake Committee of Safety that was set up by the Bundys.)
posted by bluecore at 12:22 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, literally All Hat, No Cattle, eh? Priceless.

Then you have the so-called spokesman of the militants, LaVoy Finicum. From his own statements he has a little hobby ranch that makes no profit. He says his only income is government funds for hosting foster children, about $100,000 a year according to public records. That income is non-taxable. So he has no taxable income and pays zero income taxes. In addition, emboldened by the Cliven Bundy standoff, he says he no longer pays his government grazing fees. I'm failing to see the unbearable government burden.
posted by JackFlash at 12:27 PM on January 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

In their minds, the unbearable burden is that there's a government at all.
posted by tocts at 1:00 PM on January 19, 2016

Any reputable links regarding tonight's meeting, bluecore? I'm not seeing any mention of it in the usual places.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:07 PM on January 19, 2016

That Triple Pundit article is interesting:

...it’s no mystery why ALEC and other powerful allies have failed materialize for the younger Bundy. His “getting the miners back to mining” mantra has stripped away ALEC’s loftily crafted states rights pretense, and reduced it to nothing more than a land grab to benefit private businesses.

I'm not sure if the ALEC reference is a red herring, but the point is a good one.
posted by sneebler at 1:14 PM on January 19, 2016

From the Anti Defamation League:

Experts with the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism have attempted to identify as many of the participants in the takeover as possible, watching and reading many interviews and scouring hundreds of profiles and videos on social media.

This report provides mini-profiles on 30 different occupiers and allies who have been at the wildlife refuge headquarters

_{SPOILER ALERT: none of the 3 Bundy boys occupying the refuge are actually ranchers.}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:22 PM on January 19, 2016

Surely they get credit for having a Dad who is a rancher?
posted by Going To Maine at 2:26 PM on January 19, 2016

Given Cliven Bundy's status as a public parasite, I'm not sure "rancher" is the right word. (I call him this because of the million plus dollars in unpaid fees, and for no other reason, just in case someone takes that amiss)
posted by Archelaus at 2:28 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere up thread that Cliven's ranch is unwilling to submit their cattle for inspection, essentially making them un-sellable on anything more than the most micro-level? It's pretty much dress-up pretend ranching all the way down.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:34 PM on January 19, 2016

So you're saying they're cowsplayers?
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:45 PM on January 19, 2016 [42 favorites]

Any reputable links regarding tonight's meeting, bluecore? I'm not seeing any mention of it in the usual places.

Harney County Sheriff tweeted about the meeting earlier today. As far as I know it's still happening.
posted by bluecore at 2:48 PM on January 19, 2016

Clearly the USDA is also Grade A tyranny. Real freedum is selling uninspected meat, and the freedum to buy meat full of parasites from a van down by the river.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:48 PM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Harney County Sheriff tweeted about the meeting earlier today. As far as I know it's still happening.

God, I hope a bunch of the squatters show up and the entire town shouts them out of the hall. Just harangues them mercilessly. Hopefully folks bring rotten tomatoes...just in case, y'know.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:10 PM on January 19, 2016

Here is a link to the article in today's Salt Lake Tribune, about the state's 14 million dollar expenditure to make a federal case for taking back public lands. Some good history here.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3365969-155/the-history-and-law-behind-utahs
posted by Oyéah at 3:11 PM on January 19, 2016

Just seen in my email:

The USDA-ARS is advertising for a GS14/15 Supervisory Research Ecologist/Rangeland Management Specialist. The duty station for this position is Burns, Oregon in the southeastern portion of the state. The incumbent would serve as Research Leader for the Range and Meadow Forage Management Research Unit.

So I'm guessing somebody quit over this nonsense?
posted by hydropsyche at 3:17 PM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

cowsplayers

I only regret, that I have but one favorite to give
posted by BungaDunga at 3:28 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

> So I'm guessing somebody quit over this nonsense?

That "nonsense" includes being stalked and harassed by the occupiers. If I was being stalked and harassed by a bunch of armed seditionists who felt I was the enemy due to my job, and there hasn't been any visible attempt to stop these guys from any of the responsible authorities - who happen to be employed by my employer as well, aka the federal government - I'd probably quit, and get the hell out of town while I was at it.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:29 PM on January 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

I don't in any way disagree. I am not applying for the job.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:32 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Then you have the so-called spokesman of the militants, LaVoy Finicum. From his own statements he has a little hobby ranch that makes no profit. He says his only income is government funds for hosting foster children, about $100,000 a year according to public records.

A bit more on that from TPM
posted by indubitable at 3:41 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Note: moneys given by the government are meant to be spent on the foster children they are earmarked for. If you're hosting foster children and your sole "income" is what the government gives you for taking care of them, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Or, actually, what indubitable's link also states.
posted by hippybear at 3:49 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

So I'm guessing somebody quit over this nonsense?

I wouldn't take a job posting now as a sign that someone quit over this occupation/siege/squatting. Agencies are just now starting to get their budgets for the year, which means they can start hiring. This position was probably already vacant or the personnel office knew it would become vacant at some point last year; it generally takes weeks if not months to get a job posted. Of course, it's impossible to say it's completely unrelated to the harassment of federal employees that has been going on for decades.
posted by weebil at 4:00 PM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Apparently this was not a thread to post a jokey comment in. I swear, I saw this in my email and thought it was funny and tried to imagine how loudly the federal ecologists I know would laugh at seeing this pop up in our inboxes. Apparently, I horribly misread the room and this is currently only a thread for very serious angry comments and overexplaining things to people who already know them. I am stepping out. I hope a few folks got a mildly amused smile on their faces briefly.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:25 PM on January 19, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't in any way disagree. I am not applying for the job.

I'll take the job for now, but I don't actually want to work there so I'll probably quit when the siege is over.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:34 PM on January 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Apparently this was not a thread to post a jokey comment in.

What was the joke exactly? I know they're not funny if you have to explain them, but apparently nobody got it, so maybe if you explain it we will be able to laugh the next time you post something similar that is also supposedly jokey.
posted by hippybear at 4:38 PM on January 19, 2016

But that's what we do here! Come back, damn it, so I can explain how things really work on this site...
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:39 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's probably fair to say that a few of us are in a short temper on the subject, at 16 days in with no end or resolution in sight, too. Goodness knows, I am.
posted by Archelaus at 4:42 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cascadians have no sense of humor whatsoever, hydropsyche. Consider yourself warned.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:49 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh good grief. The joke is that it is going to be quite difficult to get an ecologist to apply for this job because other ecologists are (believe it or not) aware of the situation at the national wildlife refuge and recognize that it might be difficult to work as an ecologist in rangeland management in that area of Oregon right now. As an ecologist, I got a chuckle out of the idea that I or anyone I know would apply for such a job in that place at this moment, and I imagined that other people on earth might also find the idea of trying to fill that position right now to be a mildly amusing one. My apologies again. Go back to yelling at each other rather than me.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:13 PM on January 19, 2016 [12 favorites]

Here's an interesting bit of old news about LaVoy Finicum. He quit paying grazing fees to the BLM in October of last year.

Finicum was in Nevada for the 2014 standoff, and was inspired by Cliven Bundy. I think it's obvious by now that the Malheur occupation has a lot to do with the DOJ's failure to bring charges for the 2014 standoff.

Finicum bought grazing rights to a particular BLM parcel in 2009. He now claims private property rights to that parcel. From the article:

"These grazing rights are private property rights," Finicum said, and as such, as natural rights, they are protected under the Constitution.

This entire situation in Oregon is so ridiculous. A national wildlife refuge is being held hostage because some moocher wants free land for his profitless hobby farm.
posted by compartment at 5:33 PM on January 19, 2016 [6 favorites]

So I'm guessing somebody quit over this nonsense?

I'll ask my USDA/Burns mole, but I think this might be just be someone retiring.
posted by gamera at 5:42 PM on January 19, 2016

The BLM could save themselves time and begin posting information about which cows may be taken from the range by anyone interested, for simply paying past dues. Let the anti-fee folks defend their "property" with their communist rhetoric when armed repo men show up on public land for the cheap cattle they bought on the internet.
posted by Brian B. at 5:44 PM on January 19, 2016

Brian: you do realize that someone coming to take possession of the cattle for past dues was how that whole standoff got rolling, right?
posted by Archelaus at 5:46 PM on January 19, 2016

Brian: you do realize that someone coming to take possession of the cattle for past dues was how that whole standoff got rolling, right?

In Nevada? That was the BLM, involving tortoises too. I'm suggesting a swifter transfer using PayPal, essentially declaring the cattle sold. If any former owner tried to recover a cow that was sold, it would be theft, between two private parties. The shallow arguments about land, government, freedom, sheriffs, and the constitution would apply equally to both, since it was public land and unpaid fees and fattened beef.
posted by Brian B. at 6:01 PM on January 19, 2016

Kelly House and Les Zaitz will be tweeting the town meeting.

The Harney County Sheriff just posted on some of the comings and goings from the refuge and this is a new one;
Thurs Jan 14: Oregon State Police (OSP) stopped a vehicle for a lighting violation. The driver -- Dwane Kirkland, of Hamilton, Montana -- was arrested on charges of Felon in Possession of a Firearm. He was in possession of a handgun and a rifle. The vehicle he was driving had switched plates and was uninsured.

More on him here;
Hamilton man argues laws governing traffic tickets unconstitutional
posted by phoque at 6:13 PM on January 19, 2016

Amanda Peacher and Kieran Suckling will also be tweeting the proceedings.

An interview with Kieran;
Tucson environmentalist challenges Oregon occupiers
posted by phoque at 7:06 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

What was the joke exactly? I know they're not funny if you have to explain them, but apparently nobody got it, so maybe if you explain it we will be able to laugh the next time you post something similar that is also supposedly jokey.

It cracked me up and the humor seems obvious to me. Luckily the federal hiring process moves glacially slowly, so there is a chance that the new ecologist will actually have an office by the time they are hired.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:18 PM on January 19, 2016

Live stream youtube
posted by phoque at 7:21 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

Thanks, phoque! Tuning in...
posted by mochapickle at 7:26 PM on January 19, 2016

Militants crash the meeting about what to do about the militants.

Just give up, give them the whole county, the government already has. They own it now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:48 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

The meeting is a hodgepodge. There's been yelling, accusations, tears, calls for peace. Early on, a young woman accused one of the meeting leaders, her former teacher, of mistreating her as a high school student. Right now, a pastor is reading a recipe for chocolate chip cookies.
posted by mochapickle at 8:20 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's all part of the secret FBI plan, of course.
posted by Artw at 8:25 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Luckily the federal hiring process moves glacially slowly, so there is a chance that the new ecologist will actually have an office by the time they are hired.

There are still going to be some strange "how would you handle it if..." questions in the interviews for years. I'm doing supervisor interviews next week, and I've got a few unexpected, no clear right answer, instinct-based questions I might ask. Ones where I get to say "true story, by the way."
posted by ctmf at 8:35 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's all part of the secret FBI plan, of course.

Yes! It all starts with subliminally getting the Bundys to start jonesing for cookies in the middle of the night & nabbing them under cover of darkness when they have to run back out for milk.
posted by mochapickle at 8:37 PM on January 19, 2016

...As documented in my bestselling children's book, "If You Give A Militiaman A Wildlife Habitat"
posted by mochapickle at 8:39 PM on January 19, 2016 [10 favorites]

I think Ammon and Ryan Bundy were at the meeting. They could have been arrested there and then. One of the ranchers there was calling for action on this. Basically saying that something needs to be done to remove them from the refuge.
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:41 PM on January 19, 2016

Yep, they were both there and walked in and out freely.
posted by mochapickle at 8:42 PM on January 19, 2016

Both Bundies and "Fluffy Unicorn" were present.
posted by Artw at 8:42 PM on January 19, 2016

I don't understand why they didn't arrest the Bundy's when they showed up. This situation has become more absurd.
posted by humanfont at 8:44 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

The livestream post-game is AMAZING.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:44 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yep, they were both there and walked in and out freely.

Hopefully we can dispense with the idea that wanting to arrest them is calling for a bloodbath at this point.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:44 PM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

The livestream post-game is AMAZING.

OMG! It went to commercial so I'd thought it was over. I'm back. Thanks abaasaasaab!
posted by mochapickle at 8:47 PM on January 19, 2016

Sadly, it looks like we might be out of interviewees.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:50 PM on January 19, 2016

The guy behind the camera... He's drunk, right?
posted by mochapickle at 8:50 PM on January 19, 2016

You mean loud talky guy? That's the producer back in Idaho, who was the one live-streaming the video being skyped in by the reporter. And yeah, pretty sure he's drunk.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:54 PM on January 19, 2016

Honest question, are we even sure that the FBI or anyone in the federal government is even aware of what is going on here? Has there even been a public acknowledgment? From anyone? A single FBI agent seen in Oregon? This goes beyond "planned inaction" and into "what? We didn't even know"
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:00 PM on January 19, 2016

Wow.

In 4-H, both club and regional meetings, we used parliamentary procedure to conduct meetings. Motions. Seconded. Vote. We took minutes (notes on proceedings and votes that were referred back to). Pledge, read minutes, old business, new business, adjourned. It kept things organized and moving forward.

That was a cluster fuck without an agenda. It was all over the map, perhaps it works when discussing cookies ... but that was some serious airing of grievances. Cookies would have baked with the temperature rising off the room.

There needs to be some movement on the part of officials. I looked at the Governor Kate Brown's website there are 6 entries for January, one pertains to the siege and this is the entirety;

Governor Brown to Illegal Burns-Hines Occupiers: 'Decamp Immediately'
January 07, 2016
Salem, OR—Governor Kate Brown released today the following statement in response to the Burns-Paiute Tribe's news conference and Harney County residents' public meeting yesterday:

“To members of the Burns-Paiute Tribe and residents of Harney County who seek a return to normal life: I hear you, and I agree that what started as a peaceful and legal protest has become unlawful. It was instigated by outsiders whose tactics we Oregonians don't agree with. Those individuals illegally occupying the Malheur Wildlife Refuge need to decamp immediately and be held accountable.”

There is little inspiring leadership and the people feel that the situation is out of order so the conduct reflects that ... I guess, but wow.
posted by phoque at 9:03 PM on January 19, 2016

Honest question, are we even sure that the FBI or anyone in the federal government is even aware of what is going on here? Has there even been a public acknowledgment? From anyone? A single FBI agent seen in Oregon?

Yes, the FBI has a fenced off compound at the airport. Here's video of Idaho 3 Percenters trying to talk to them. The FBI agents all have body armor, machine guns, and headsets.

That meeting was a shit show. I was surprised at the number of people that clapped for the FBI not being needed, but I also have no clue how we got into cookie recipes and stories about old dynamite.
posted by bluecore at 9:15 PM on January 19, 2016

Parks and Recreation was a totally factual documentary about what local government is like. People just fell victim to Poe's Law there and figured it for satire.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:17 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think they were just clapping for everyone as a community support thing, like; "Good speech Jane", clap clap clap, "You tell em Bob", clap clap clap, "Ross, well he's trying", clap clap clap, "Betty, that is prescient", clap clap clap.
posted by phoque at 9:28 PM on January 19, 2016

Did a single person walk out of that meeting feeling better than they did when they walked in?
posted by mochapickle at 9:37 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

If they did, it's only because they needed that cookie recipe.
posted by Archelaus at 9:44 PM on January 19, 2016 [11 favorites]

did anybody transcribe the cookie recipe
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:13 PM on January 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oregon standoff: Anger, frustration boil over at community meeting
posted by Artw at 10:31 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did a single person walk out of that meeting feeling better than they did when they walked in?

My sister-in-law got to tell Bundy he should be in jail, which I imagine was pretty cathartic. I don't think it made up for the fact that the Bundy Bunch were there at all. She was really upset that they came in while there were still students using the gym. I don't know if the Bundy group were armed, but there were definitely armed people at the meeting- one of her friends posted a shot on Facebook of the guy sitting in front of her with a (holstered) pistol.

Is there video of the meeting? I only caught a few minutes of the stream.
posted by gamera at 10:53 PM on January 19, 2016 [8 favorites]

Archived stream meeting starts about 15 min in.
posted by phoque at 10:56 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]

And David Fry (the ISIS, not ISIS, rah rah Hitler guy) seems rather impressionable, as he has taken up bird watching.
posted by phoque at 11:02 PM on January 19, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thanks, phoque. Now to find that cookie recipe.
posted by gamera at 11:07 PM on January 19, 2016

Cookie Pastor starts just around 1:29:45 or so of the archived stream.
posted by mochapickle at 11:08 PM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]

NYTimes article about counterprotestors at Malheur.
posted by newdaddy at 2:43 AM on January 20, 2016

I don't understand why they didn't arrest the Bundy's when they showed up.

The same reason they haven't arrested any of the criminals any other time they've had an opportunity. (Except that one guy, who was arrested by the state, not the federal government.) The reason they haven't been arrested is... well... we don't know really.

I wonder if any of the seditionists showed up armed to the meeting?
posted by Nelson at 6:39 AM on January 20, 2016

Lawmaker to pitch idea to join eastern parts of Oregon, Washington with Idaho
posted by Artw at 6:48 AM on January 20, 2016

The reason they haven't been arrested is... well... we don't know really.

Because it's been far more effective to quietly let the occupier group hang themselves with all that rope they've been given. If the FBI went in there all forcefully and raided the place they would have had every militia group on the west coast down there within the day no matter the petty differences in ideology. Now they have every militia group trying to get Bundy's stink off them because of those same petty differences in ideology.
posted by Talez at 6:54 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if the FBI tell themselves this is their plan too?
posted by Artw at 7:01 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if the FBI tell themselves this is their plan too?

I think the FBI's plan so far has been "we can't fuck this up like Waco and Ruby Ridge or we'll have more right wing carnage until the end of the decade again".
posted by Talez at 7:06 AM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

That's really more of an excuse than a plan.
posted by Artw at 7:11 AM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

Lawmaker to pitch idea to join eastern parts of Oregon, Washington with Idaho

Can't find a source right now, but I remember reading at one point that the reason WA and OR and ID are the shape they are is that the people making the decisions at the time wanted each state to have a variety of resources -- from farmland to forest to coastal (not in the case of ID) resources, so each state would have the broadest base of self-sufficiency. ID has the panhandle to give it forest land so it isn't just the lower portion which is mostly low-lying farmland.

This may have, over time, lead to tensions across the states as each has developed and grown population bases that are concentrated in different areas with differing agendas, but on the level of "how do we allow each state to have a broad base of resources", it is largely successful.
posted by hippybear at 7:17 AM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think the that group meeting has galvanized my opinion. The town is in pain. People's lives have been disrupted. People in town are being intimidated (drive by shouting) by a gang of thugs.

They need to be removed. Right. Now. Even if it involves shooting. Even if it involves some of them getting killed. Even if some priceless artifacts are destroyed. They need to be removed and the survivors need to be all imprisoned for lengthily terms and their estates sued and assets eventually taken for every singly piece of damage they have caused.

That court Judge Yellowshirt, police chief Wiggum and Pastor Cookie are all nice enough people but completely ineffective and WAY out of their league. WTF is Obama doing by (presumably) asking to FBI to hold ??? Why has the Governor not called in the National Guard? Because it's an election year? Eff that - Protect those people! This has gone on far too long.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:22 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's really more of an excuse than a plan.

I dunno. It's easy to say things from the sidelines because it's not your agents you'd be consigning to a possibly deadly firefight. It's not your colleague's federal buildings that would be targets for retaliation. It's not your BLM/FWS officers that will become remote and defenseless targets for the lone wolf deranged, triggered by delusions of "actual tyranny", to hunt.
posted by Talez at 7:27 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Im pretty sure they're all of our agents, who are supposed to be protecting all of our collective property which has been attacked.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:30 AM on January 20, 2016

We, haven't we heard recently how law enforcement is really dangerous and tough and they have to be the best of the best and ready to shoot at all times and that's why we shouldn't be too hard on them if they kill a few unarmed minorities from time to time?

Well I guess that's out the window. Dealing with anything that might be a bit dangerous apparently not part of their job description.
posted by Artw at 7:36 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

If the FBI went in there all forcefully and raided the place

We've been through this in this discussion, and recently. You have created a false dichotomy: "either ignore these guys, or else start a firefight where everyone dies".

I'm not arguing for a cowboy raid with the FBI running in with tear gas a-blazin. I'm arguing for safe arrests. Pick up Ammon Bundy at the high school gym at the end of the town meeting. Or when he's driving between states spreading his sedition. Or arrest the flunkies when they go down to the convenience store to buy more Cheese-its. It seems to me there have been plenty of opportunities for arrests without risk. (And blockade the roads and cut the utilities.)

The FBI is clearly not interested in arresting these guys. Even when provided many safe opportunities. Maybe that's all part of some clever plan, I sure hope so. But appeasment hasn't worked for the Bundy thieves in Nevada and it doesn't seem to be working well in Oregon either.
posted by Nelson at 7:39 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

On second thought, maybe arresting Bundy at the high school gym meeting was considered too risky. Because of the risk that some of the innocent Harney County residents might be shot by the seditionists. Another way to view that is that the locals are being held hostage. How long will we tolerate that?
posted by Nelson at 7:41 AM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm arguing for safe arrests.

Like they did with the Hammonds.
posted by Etrigan at 7:42 AM on January 20, 2016

No Place for Old Dildos
posted by Artw at 8:10 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

AGameOfMoans, are you actually trying to suggest an appropriate response to drive by shouting is to kill people? Because that applies to a lot more protest than just this one. In fact I would say a good majority of protests involve shouting, whether it is against elected officials, or people who support the lot being challenged. That is not a precedent that I am comfortable with starting.
posted by corb at 8:21 AM on January 20, 2016

>are you actually trying to suggest an appropriate response to drive by shouting is to kill people?

No - I am suggesting that arresting people is an appropriate response to armed thugs taking over and destroying community property. I am also suggesting that when people use guns to break laws, or use them to avoid being taken to jail after breaking them, one of the unfortunate consequences is that they may be killed themselves by proper and official civil servants in the proper course of their duties - because that is what government does - protect people from such thugs.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:26 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

No Place for Old Dildos posted by Artw at 11:10 AM on January 20

For those of you needing a final resting place for your old personal appliances, this link provides a mailing address to a happenin' spot in SE Oregon where they are sure to get one last rise out of somebody. [No guarantee of environmentally-sensitive disposal; quite the opposite probably.]
posted by achrise at 8:30 AM on January 20, 2016

"Don't look at cops, they might kill you! That's just personal responsibility!"
Vs "These poor innocent babies can't know that threatening to kill civilians with guns might get them arrested and/or shot at."
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on January 20, 2016

Just saying but the solution to cops being brutal and sadistic fucks to unarmed poor people and minorities is not to subject armed white people to the same treatment.
posted by Talez at 8:34 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

And I'm just saying that if you commit a crime, or multiple crimes, and use a gun to threaten arresting officers, then it is entirely expected and completely within reason that you may be shot - regardless of your race, creed or color.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:39 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh boo hoo. We're suggesting criminals get arrested and an actual proportionate response be used if criminals use force to evade arrest.
posted by Artw at 8:39 AM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

The false equivalency between peaceful protesters chanting and armed assholes threatening people is muddling the issue here. Arming oneself shouldn't be a ticket to evading one's responsibility to follow the law, so the notion that cops have abused their position in other instances that look nothing like this isn't really applicable.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:41 AM on January 20, 2016 [9 favorites]

We're for the actual rule of law and cops doing their job properly! We're against armed bullies and thugs! How inconsistent of us! How hypocritical!
posted by Artw at 8:43 AM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm guessing the cops didn't arrest the Bundys, and others, because so many people are carrying guns around (there was a comment upthread noting that people were open carrying at the community meeting), and they have no idea who is carrying concealed, and they have literally no idea who's unhinged enough to start shooting.

As much as we may want them arrested (so much I can taste it), can you even imagine the shitshow that would have gone down if someone had started shooting at that meeting? "FBI botches arrest; 5 civilians dead" would be the kindest of the headlines, most likely. Recall the guy who went on a rampage at the Empire State Building--many ordinary citizens were shot, by cops.

Multiply that by however many of the terrorists were carrying guns to that meeting, and imagine the bloodbath from on-edge cops/agents shooting at untrained chuckleheads who are shooting back.

And they don't know if this guy in this truck is antsy enough to start pulling the trigger instead of surrendering peacefully when they surround him.

That said, I don't see a resolution to this that doesn't involve gunfire. And while I'm generally on the side of roadblocks etc, that's just going to make the terrorists more desperate and entrench them further in their siege/blaze-of-glory mentality and make a terrible shootout even more likely.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I'm beginning to feel like we are seeing the early stages of something very, very bad starting to happen in the USA. There's going to be more of these, and they're going to accelerate, and the calculus of whether to halt them vs potential body count is going to get more and more difficult to parse.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:55 AM on January 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm not at all versed in process service for criminal cases, but is there anything to stop the occupiers from being publicly charged with documented crimes and told to turn themselves in? Yeah, it's kid gloves, but it's also slightly more action than we're currently seeing.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:56 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

This, btw, is why the state needs to maintain a monopoly on violence and weaponry. Once you have a gun in your hand (and you're white), the law no longer applies to you. This is toxic to society.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:57 AM on January 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

One of the Bundy thugs made a comment some days back about being funded by "deep pockets". If not just a load of rubbish then I wonder if this isn't a stunt funded by some billionaire to influence election year politics - which would explain the chill Federal response somewhat.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:58 AM on January 20, 2016

Problem is, ABAASAASAAB, that sets a clock ticking for when eventually they'll have to cave to pressure and go in to make arrests.

This is an absolutely no-win situation, no matter how you slice it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:59 AM on January 20, 2016

I mean basically this is an armed revolution starting, and while they may not actually 'overthrow' the government, it's looking like they can create pockets where LEO dares not interfere, which amounts to the same thing.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:01 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean basically this is an armed revolution starting, and while they may not actually 'overthrow' the government, it's looking like they can create pockets where LEO dares not interfere, which amounts to the same thing.

The biggest problem is that the US military and domestic law enforcement both struggle with armed insurgencies. There's no guaranteed way to win and a lot of civilian lives at stake even if you were to eradicate a lot of insurgents in the mean time.
posted by Talez at 9:06 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is not an "armed insurgency" Telez. This is a few dozen guys tops, many of them felons, playing Cowboy dress-up while stamping their feet in a bird sanctuary - oh and with guns. "Insurgency" gives them a credibility they do not deserve.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:12 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

The "deep pockets" are the Koch brothers - it's not especially mysterious.
posted by Artw at 9:13 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm not at all versed in process service for criminal cases, but is there anything to stop the occupiers from being publicly charged with documented crimes and told to turn themselves in? Yeah, it's kid gloves, but it's also slightly more action than we're currently seeing.

I assume that would require a warrant being issued and then there's the matter of whether a law enforcement officer can or cannot choose to not execute a warrant if the subject of said warrant is standing right in front of them - which goes against how things have been handled. (In my state, we actually have a criminal statute for failing to enforce a warrant.)
posted by Atreides at 9:16 AM on January 20, 2016

I mean basically this is an armed revolution starting, and while they may not actually 'overthrow' the government, it's looking like they can create pockets where LEO dares not interfere, which amounts to the same thing.

As Dip Flash noted waaaaaay earlier, this is very similar to the Montana Freemen standoff from ages past. Different, yes, but calling it an “armed revolution starting” is rather hyperbolic.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:20 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

There really oughta be a list of what sorts of armed crimes it's too dangerous for law enforcement officers to respond to

Seems like people might find that handy
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:25 AM on January 20, 2016 [7 favorites]

There really oughta be a list of what sorts of armed crimes it's too dangerous for law enforcement officers to respond to

So long as the situation is metastable and nobody is in imminent danger I don't see why the strategy can't just be "wait it out".
posted by Talez at 9:32 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

As armed insurgencies / guerrillas go, this one is quite pathetic so far. As Mao once remarked, insurgent movements like this need support from the locals. So far that's non-existent. Another goal of groups like this is to provoke a strong government response. The insurgency will not militarily win in a government attack, but it needs that attack to build legitimacy, recruit, and provides them with loads of propaganda.

So the government just lets them twist in the wind, peacefully, lets them annoy their new neighbors, and lets them get some time to spout off their ridiculous talking points which will drive away most rational people. It's probably going to have the desired effect of deflating the whole thing and making the insurgents look foolish.

If there's anything which is fatal to would-be guerrillas, it's looking like unwanted, cringeworthy idiots. I think the response so far has been well-considered.

Though, if I were in charge, I'd do quiet arrests every now and then. Take one while pointedly letting another one go. Help in building up the doubts and angst within the group.
posted by honestcoyote at 9:38 AM on January 20, 2016 [21 favorites]

Exactly, honestcoyote. Exactly.
posted by Talez at 9:38 AM on January 20, 2016

I think a broad pattern of misconduct is coming to light, and the US government is getting a chance to observe it. I think that the west has benefitted from federal management, from ranchers and timber harvesters, to locals fudging the lines on grazing, and certainly the numbers. Then those who feel like losers have a quiet rebellion going on, poaching, deliberately tracking collars and killing protected wolves, and over trapping while not following humane practices. Then environment, becomes environmentalist, then politicized to radical environmentalists, when big money is thwarted. Then wild west thug media, and talk radio makes enemies of environmental interests and regular people end up spitting out the words. When industries close or areas close off, or hunt numbers go down because of environmental concerns, the environment still takes a hit. People who worked a cement plant who were never treated or paid that well by the plant owners transfer their hatred to environmentalists when the plant closes over pollution issues. So newly unemployed cement workers, coal miners, miners to be, loggers, are going to be at a loss as to what to do. Then the environment cleans up so city folk can come see it, or build a house in a now green place with clean air, and commute to town for tech jobs.

In some ways the marginal lands of the west serve as a white ghetto. People can buy something cheap, hunt, fish, grow some cattle and try to find sustaining work. They don't like people who want to keep count with regard to simple survival schemes. Real ranching, farming, that is difficult. Those people have respect for their holdings, nature, and the freedoms their hard work buys. They are not drugstore cowboys or petty thieves.

So, when this group of idealogue, heavily armed losers shows up, and tries to coerce a farm community into twitted civil disobedience, the community deserves some help in clearing them out. The terrorist thug, drugstore cowboys have been asked to leave. But, they insist they are tapping a deep pocket, are they saying they are mercenary soldiers? If that is so, who do they work for? Maybe the arrests should start at the top?

This movement is as broad as those disenfranchised by lack of technical education, living marginally in the west, who feed on nineteenth century fantasies. Some supporters of this showdown, work unsatisfying but well paying jobs, and spend weekends at their cabins and rather than hating their jobs or a system that marginalizes them, they hate an unreal enemy, armageddon, outsiders, the government, birders, city folk, I am not even going to wander off into issues of culture or race but it is all there.

These folks occupying the refuge are scared, that is why they brought all the guns. They have jaw-jacked on the web until they are sufficiently delusional to take it on the road, where they have to realize they are irrelevant. The only relevant issue is not their antiquated thinking, their color, their religion, or gender; their only relevance is their potential for violence. Period. They are not the sharpest tools in the shed; they know this, they are not celebrities, and not relevant except as an irritant to the community they are chauvanising. Yes, they are the bad internet date Harney County can't get rid of.
posted by Oyéah at 10:07 AM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]

The biggest problem is that the US military and domestic law enforcement both struggle with armed insurgencies. There's no guaranteed way to win and a lot of civilian lives at stake even if you were to eradicate a lot of insurgents in the mean time.

If the crisis deepens to the point that these guys claim territory as a nation-state independent of the US, that is when it would be time to cut all ties -- banking, mail, utilities, roads, everything. They can't share the benefits of citizenship while repudiating it. When they can't get to the money the deep pockets are providing because we've seized their bank accounts, when they can't call out because we've taken down the cell towers, we will see just what they're made of, if they think they're truly revolutionaries.

I'd start with the mail, & I'd do it tomorrow. They've threatened Federal workers, & I think the FBI could easily justify that it's not safe for postal workers to be in proximity of these guys.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:43 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

I apologize in advance for the wall of text that is coming your way, but this situation is complex, and I can't think of a better way of articulating why it's so important to me, and why a response (or lack of one) carries so much weight.


I totally get that there needs to not be an overwhelming response. I'd settle for an underwhelming one - I'm getting to the point where even a response of "we hereby proclaim that the occupiers are naughty people, who are doing naughty things, and they are very very bad" would be enough to feel like someone at a higher level even gives a shit.

I really do get conflicted on this issue, because yeah, letting them fight amongst themselves and look crazy is valid. If they were completely isolated in a "lord of the flies" fashion, I'd feel better about that. However, there are peoples lives being actively being impacted negatively by this, and they are getting enough publicity that has an appearance of legitimizing them more - and this is causing a stirring of the loins in other like-minded folk across the nation. There's also the original Bundy standoff that started a year and a half ago. From a certain perspective, those guys basically won, and those irrational ideas start to seem a lot more rational.

Before anyone thinks I'm going down the thought-crime road, or that we should persecute people for their beliefs, let it be clear that I firmly believe that anyone can believe and proclaim any fucking crazy thing that they want to in this country. However, acting on those beliefs becomes a completely different situation, and really falls into two levels of criteria for when its problematic:
1.) Is it causing any harm?
2.) Is it breaking any laws?

Many on the conservative and libertarian end of the spectrum really believe that only the first criterion is applicable, and that laws should only really cover that criterion to begin with. The thing is, the definition of harm goes well beyond physical harm to an individual - harm to an ecosystem, for example, or something that causes undue financial burden on an individual or a group (and this is where you have to be very careful, because some see taxes as just that).

Some would look at this situation and say that they aren't causing any direct harm, then let them fizzle out. I personally think we have historical precedent with the Bundy ranch at this point that this isn't going to happen. But ok, let's just assume that maybe it will, eventually. Is there really no harm being caused here? Well, they haven't assaulted or shot anyone yet. However, they are causing duress to a community of people, and they are actively threatening people, so I'd argue that they are causing harm... but even if they weren't doing that, taking public land for your own purposes is causing another type of harm. Destruction of wildlife habits causes yet another. Eroding the publics faith in the rule of law is yet another form of harm - It's not just us who are watching from the outside who would like to see these guys brought to justice, failing to do so is causing much greater active harm to the community nearby, who is reliant on the exact people taking action who are failing to do so now. What do they do when they lose faith in the ability for the federal government to respond? Do they take action on their own? If they do, will they be giving up essential protections by acting within federal jurisdiction? Or will they simply shift the burden of a potentially burdened raid from the FBI to the local law enforcement or others?

And finally, there's a lot of harm in letting armed people get away with something like this that unarmed people would never be able to get away with, as it sets a precedent for further actions along these lines.

As has been stated above, a job in law enforcement is one that has the potential for walking into and dealing with a dangerous situation. There have been opportunities for peaceful arrests, just as there have been opportunities for stopping shipments or making statements. These opportunities have not been taken, and all we have to go on for why are wild guesses.

I know that on my part, I find this overwhelmingly frustrating because it fuels and reinforces a view of law and governance that runs absolutely counter to my belief system. I believe in a government that is there for the benefit of the people, and one that operates with some degree of transparency. I realize that I'm going to be perpetually setting myself up for disappointment for that one, because there are always going to be shortcomings. But in this case, it goes well beyond shortcomings - It's literally absent.

I have also had to deal with rather personal threats and stalking in my past, as I know that others here have as well. One of the worst feelings is when you feel like you don't have anyone who can count on, or who will even take you seriously. In this case, the threats are relatively well known and public, and there's nobody supporting them from an official standpoint - there are several people who literally have no option other than to keep a low profile and to keep their distance. That is a giant failure of law enforcement and governance, and it's one I find incredibly offensive.

So when I look at all of this, I get mad. I get mad about the plight of the people, and I get mad that a bunch of selfish armed assholes can do something like this with not only literally zero repercussions, but with a small and growing base of support. Seriously, think about this - While literally zero actions have been taken against them, there are people showing up to add to their ranks, and there are people actually sending them supplies. Every day that passes with zero action, these fuckers are better off than they were before. I take some hope in the fact that there have been some actions taken against a few individuals, but they are always technicalities, and never in direct response to their actions here.

I can certainly laugh at some of the specifics, because there's humor to be found in the absurdity... but it's becoming harder to do so - as deep down, there's a part of me that thinks that if we are seeing these many failures, then maybe these assholes have a point or two about the legitimacy of our government. And when I look at the injustices in the world around me, it seems incredibly symbolic that a bunch of delusional people with guns can take an action like this and be completely unchallenged when there is such a disproportionate response in law enforcement and power to the unarmed and the powerless.

So if you are wondering why it isn't always funny, or why some of us are so insistent on a response from law enforcement, these are some of my reasons. I can't say that they are everyone else's, but I'm pretty sure that more than a few here would agree with at least a few of my frustrations.
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:46 AM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

If you capitulate to terrorists, you embolden them. Period.

Every minute they continue at large, is a minute more their support grows. Send in a pair of FBI agents in a car to speak to them, tell them they're under arrest, and ask if they're going to come along peacefully. If that fails, there's a well documented escalation path to ensure compliance.
posted by mikelieman at 10:51 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

I totally get that there needs to not be an overwhelming response. I'd settle for an underwhelming one - I'm getting to the point where even a response of "we hereby proclaim that the occupiers are naughty people, who are doing naughty things, and they are very very bad" would be enough to feel like someone at a higher level even gives a shit.

The locals -including the sheriff- have done that, the governor of Oregon has said she wants them gone, and the FBI is present and monitoring them. So that low-key response has happened / is continuing to happen. Your wish has been granted.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:04 AM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

>Send in a pair of FBI agents in a car to speak to them, tell them they're under arrest, and ask if they're going to come along peacefully.

I Want To Believe
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:16 AM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

What are they going to do? Shoot the FBI? Run off?
posted by Artw at 11:18 AM on January 20, 2016

The locals -including the sheriff- have done that, the governor of Oregon has said she wants them gone, and the FBI is present and monitoring them. So that low-key response has happened / is continuing to happen. Your wish has been granted.

Right, the FBI is that higher level response I want. So all of these people who say they want them gone - who are they expecting to do that? Since the sheriff is saying that but not doing so, I can only assume that it's the FBI that they are talking to, and I guess the occupiers themselves... Present and monitoring is great and all, but at what point do they do more than just be present and watch these guys, and take an action? As in, ANY action...

All they have said is that they will work with local law enforcement, but they are remaining quiet on specifics for reasons of safety. I guess they worked with the sheriff and state police to arrest a couple of people for moving violations? You'd think that if they could arrest a couple of folks for vehicle related incidents, they'd be able to do so for fucking taking over a federal building, stealing vehicles, destroying federal property, or any of the other things they have done that are much worse than having a light out - you know, on the way to the grocery or wherever else they are freely going.

Seriously, these are the law enforcement actions that have been taken.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:31 AM on January 20, 2016

Send in a pair of FBI agents in a car to speak to them, tell them they're under arrest, and ask if they're going to come along peacefully.

I Want To Believe

Oh, man, maybe it's anticipation for the X-Files revival or listening to too many docu-drama podcasts or being generally weird at heart, but if I had the patience for sound editing or any acting skill to speak of, I would love to do a docu-drama podcast set on an occupied piece of federal land in the middle of nowhere in which the 'patriots' encounter UFOs. Call it "The Voice of the Free" or something. It starts with an episode or two of comparatively benign patriots talking about the evil government and land grabs and so on but then starts to slide into strange encounters at night, paranoia, and an FBI quarantine for not the reasons the patriots think it is.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:33 AM on January 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

Actually, only one has been arrested - the others were merely cited. I'd like to point out that while these people were being arrested or cited, nobody on the LE side was shot or harmed in any fashion.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:34 AM on January 20, 2016

The Bundy family have rich friends and fellow travellers: -
American billionaires on welfare: The Koch brothers and other ranchers stealing your tax dollars
posted by adamvasco at 11:40 AM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Feds are total control of the situation. Local law enforcement is completely helpless because the Feds have not gone to a judge yet and gotten arrest warrants for any of these people. Without an arrest warrant, local officials cannot do a thing. This is why Finicum and Ryan Bundy were free to drive 700 miles from Burns to Cedar City, appear on a talk radio show, and return the next day. Local police were notified of their presence but said they could do nothing without a warrant.

The only time locals can intervene is when they break obvious state law such as driving a stolen vehicle. The local sheriff and state patrol have no grounds to arrest the Bundys when they attended the community meeting.

This is the Feds ballgame and they are reluctant to issue warrants. It seems they really do want the militants to just go home, perhaps to deal with them later.
posted by JackFlash at 11:47 AM on January 20, 2016

mikelieman: Send in a pair of FBI agents in a car to speak to them, tell them they're under arrest, and ask if they're going to come along peacefully.

I'd worry about them becoming hostages to be used as bargaining chips/human shields. Or some of the trigger-happy crazies shooting them on sight. That's how Waco started-- 4 dead ATF agents and 16 wounded while trying to serve a search warrant.

Some of these guys are seriously nuts. One of them thinks Osama Bin Laden was never killed and that the government/Clinton let Benghazi happen so the SEALs there would die because they knew the truth about Bin Laden. So I don't expect him to behave cooly in a stand-off.

I'm not saying I have a better option. I keep trying to remind myself that I'm a mostly a pacifist, and that de-escalation and negotiation are valid tactics, but there's also a dark part of my soul that wants cluster bomb the compound and be done with it. I guess that's not a very evolved thing to say.
posted by bluecore at 11:48 AM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

It seems they really do want the militants to just go home, perhaps to deal with them later.

Why the fuck would anybody seriously think they're just going to go home at this point?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 11:50 AM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's how Waco started-- 4 dead ATF agents and 16 wounded while trying to serve a search warrant.

They are not as crazy as the people at Waco, and are undoubtedly aware that should they fire a shot the whole charade is over. Their bluff should be called on this.

And if the honest assessment is that they ARE As crazy as the people at Waco, and can be assumed to start shooting, then letting them roam free isn't really a smart move either. Blow their heads off from a safe distance and be done with it.
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on January 20, 2016

If you don't want to hear it the frustration with inaction from me, just hear it from the governor herself.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:06 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

The best thing to happen, at this point, is if they claim victory, no one listens, they leave, and then they get arrested.

Bar the "and then they get arrested" that's how the Bundy ranch thing ended up- and now we have this shit. They're already making plans for their next bunch of standoffs.
posted by Artw at 12:08 PM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's how Waco started-- 4 dead ATF agents and 16 wounded while trying to serve a search warrant.

They are not as crazy as the people at Waco, and are undoubtedly aware that should they fire a shot the whole charade is over. Their bluff should be called on this.

Waco wasn’t about “craziness”, and that’s a dangerously reductive way to look at any such situation. Waco was about a massive failure to communicate between a religious organization and conventional terrorist negotiators that could have been resolved peaceably, given more time. To contrast, the conflict with the Montana Freemen was a similar hostage standoff with a religious group that was resolved peaceably by giving the Freemen a way to back down and get what they wanted. (Trials, where they got to talk about how fringes on flags meant that they were actually in admiralty courts & other such tenets of their belief systems.)

If what the Malheur folks actually want is a fight to the death, that might be what they get, but it’s very important -and really costs little- to let them stew and to find out the truth of the situation. It’s really unfortunate, however, that residents of the area are being left out in the cold to understand this as neglect. The process should be more transparent.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:24 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

And I think that failure to arrest anyone over the ranch standoff is why we have this situation, and was the major problem with the resolution of the 2014 stand-off. Ending the situation with no one wounded or killed is laudable; failing to take steps to prevent a future (now, current) incident isn't.

You know, I think that that's one of the big differences of opinion in how people want this handled. For some, the idea is that there's this magic wand, some solution, that can be deployed, and then this will never happen again. Everyone will be suitably chilled, and will never dare to raise their head in such a fashion again. Society has been saved from the consequences of this subset's anger!

But I don't think that's possible. I mean, I know what the feds could be doing to end this standoff relatively quickly and peacefully. It's similar to what successful interventions have been like at other protests and occupations - cut them off from supplies and wait for them to get bored and go home. Then issue charges one at a time, forcing them to return at their own expense if they don't want to be declared a felon. Don't give them the confrontation they want.

But to the extent that this is an expression - whether legitimate or not depends on perception - of deepseated anger means that this isn't going to just go away. Your feelings that government is totally legitimate and has legitimate interests in restricting grazing and protecting endangered animals isn't going to make them feel any better about it. Your feelings that their way of life are destructive and not good for the environment and society are not going to make them voluntarily want to go gentle into that good night.

It is not surprising that they don't think traditional methods of protest are going to be successful. That's because, honestly, they aren't. How many people did we have out in the streets protesting the Iraq War? How many people did we have out in the streets protesting the Patriot Act? Any number of a host of different concerns? And how many times did direct change come about solely as a result of those marches in the streets? Very rarely, and never sufficient.

These people are taking tactically stupid actions. But they're going to keep taking them not until they get punished, but rather, until they see more tactically smart actions that are more successful. And honestly, I don't see what that route is. Do you? Do you see any actions they could possibly take that is likely to bring about what they want?
posted by corb at 12:28 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

Corb - I agree with just about everything you are saying, except I don't think we are under any illusion that if we do it right, it will prevent anything like like this forever. I certainly don't believe there's a magic wand to prevent this from happening again, because you are right, that doesn't exist.

What we can do, though, and what I am asking for, is to prevent it from happening again with literally zero consequences. And just because we can't prevent further standoffs doesn't mean that we shouldn't always take the actions - that you expressed yourself, like cutting off supplies - that could end this peacefully.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:36 PM on January 20, 2016

These people are taking tactically stupid actions. But they're going to keep taking them not until they get punished, but rather, until they see more tactically smart actions that are more successful. And honestly, I don't see what that route is. Do you? Do you see any actions they could possibly take that is likely to bring about what they want?

It really depends on what they are willing to settle for, in contrast to their expressed desires. The Scott Carrier piece, for instance, makes it pretty clear that religion is playing a large part in the Bundy bunch’s thinking. That could be an angle of attack.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2016

It's tough to say that they'd be willing to settle for anything, given that their two expressed desires are: "the Fed cedes all control of lands" and "we want to be martyrs"
posted by Archelaus at 12:41 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

"We are very strong, very firm, this facility will not go back to the federal government, ever.” --occupier LaVoy Finicum.
posted by bluecore at 1:07 PM on January 20, 2016

Every minute they continue at large, is a minute more their support grows

Do you have any firm evidence of growing support? The numbers at the refuge seem to be holding steady at around 30. The local community seems to be moving away from any support. There don't seem to be many other takeovers happening of other wildlife refuges.
These guys are like a scab. If we stop picking at it, things will heal. If we keep picking at it, it will get infected and make us more ill.
posted by humanfont at 1:07 PM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

“We are very strong, very firm, this facility will not go back to the federal government, ever.” --occupier LaVoy Finicum.

Surely, surely, he isn’t simply presenting a bold face for PR purposes. Surely.

(More practically, the Montana Freemen didn’t start out by saying that they wanted to be arrested and tried. That was what they eventually descended to as other options closed down. The point is that what you settle for isn’t what you say.)
posted by Going To Maine at 1:11 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

These guys are like a scab. If we stop picking at it, things will heal. If we keep picking at it, it will get infected and make us more ill.

More like a cancer- It spread from the original infestation of the Bundy ranch when left untreated. There's every reason to believe it will spread further, even if it doesn't appear to be spreading very aggressively.
posted by MysticMCJ at 1:14 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Bundy ranch isn’t the origin of sovereign citizenry or the Freemen movement. It was an outbreak, yes, but was hardly an origin.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:17 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well no, it isn't, the origins of the movement as a whole wasn't really my point - However, the Bundy brothers came directly from that incident. I wonder what could have possibly emboldened them... My point being that there's no reason to believe it will heal and stop if we leave it alone, and every reason to believe it will just spread further from here.
posted by MysticMCJ at 1:25 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

Do you see any actions they could possibly take that is likely to bring about what they want?

When "what they want" is the complete abolishment of the federal government, or barring that, the return of all federally owned property to private interests, specifically, the militants and their shadowy corporate supporters personally at the expense of the rest of the public, no. Nothing is going to achieve that absent armed insurrection, which they appear ready to engage in.

A better question is why we should consider those demands to be legitimate at all, instead of criminal.

When other criminals make criminal demands, say, "I'd like to be able to sell a kilo of cocaine" or "I'd like to run a Ponzi scheme", we don't consider "what they want" before taking decisive action to enforce the law and established pubic policy. The government does not owe every criminal a forum to present their alternative theory of the law.

You've offered no reason why the case should be any different with this particular set of armed criminals.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:46 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

humanfont: Do you have any firm evidence of growing support?

CBS KOIN News claims more militia members are arriving from NV, AL, and OH. Not sure how many.
posted by bluecore at 2:58 PM on January 20, 2016

I can say with ironclad certainty that they've had a dude from Yakima, WA show up to support them.

Admittedly, I dunno if he stayed or was planning to stay. (He's a former friend of my brother)
posted by Archelaus at 3:08 PM on January 20, 2016

When other criminals make criminal demands, say, "I'd like to be able to sell a kilo of cocaine" or "I'd like to run a Ponzi scheme", we don't consider "what they want" before taking decisive action to enforce the law and established pubic policy.

Actually, based on things I have read about actual investigations of drug dealers or financial swindlers, it's very common for those conducting the investigation into these things to take a long and slow road, watching carefully and gathering as much information as possible, and waiting for the exact right moment with the exact right circumstances to move in and make actual arrests. These things do not play out like they do in television procedurals, generally.

I haven't seen any LEO posting in this thread that I know of. And I have a lot of faith that the FBI and others who are involved with the law enforcement side of this have a lot more experience and training in how to handle this kind of matter, especially in light of the way things have gone terribly wrong in the past. I also have faith that there are a lot of people with a lot more information about this situation who are having meetings on a daily or even more frequent basis about exactly what they know and what they feel their next move should be.

I don't have blind faith that those people know the absolute best course of action. But like all humans, they are making the choices they feel are the best in the circumstances as they perceive them, and I'm sure they have an end game in mind. That they aren't sharing this with the general public in a way that is available for open comment here on The Blue doesn't surprise me in the least.

Even Al Capone was allowed to attend baseball games while he was under investigation for his crimes, and they were much more violent and disruptive than anything this group is doing.
posted by hippybear at 3:11 PM on January 20, 2016 [6 favorites]

idea: offer a $1 million bounty to the person that brings Bundy into court alive. Watch as his followers turn on him in a feeding frenzy, or at least he'll stop accepting new members out of paranoia.
posted by bluecore at 3:17 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]

CBS KOIN News claims more militia members are arriving from NV, AL, and OH.

Remember the Bush administration's excellent Iraq policy of attracting all of the militants to one place so they could finish them off? The FBI is fighting them over in Oregon so they don't have to fight them over here.
posted by JackFlash at 3:24 PM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]

You've got some very good points, hippybear. I still find it a bit surprising that literally nothing at all has been done in this case, when there are simple measures that could at the very least inconvenience these guys. But you are spot on with how this is handled with drug dealers, etc.

I'm not sure why I feel like this should be handled differently. There's a not entirely rational part of me that says "but this is different" that I can't explain entirely, but it's certainly there. I mean there's all the emotional reasons I listed above, but there's something more to it that feels tangibly different. Maybe part of it is that what these guys are doing seems so much more overt, as opposed to the more covert activities that the FBI is usually up against. I think the fact that the local authorities are literally begging for these guys removal is part of it as well. But even with all of that, there's still more - I just can't articulate it yet.

But you are correct about the approach that the FBI would take. Thinking about it more from the perspective of how they usually deal with others actually gets me a bit less inflamed about this. I can't say I have a ton of faith in them acting, but I'm willing to hang on to what's there. This time.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:37 PM on January 20, 2016

One interesting thing here is that, unless the Maroon Army is incredibly stupid - which certainly should not be ruled out - they are totally confident that there is not going to be an attack on their treehouse, whatever they say about being ready to die for their cause.

If you think you might be targeted by trained operatives, among the things you don't do is invite the media in to take multiple reference photos of the current layout of the building, and particularly where and how you sleep.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:10 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

It spread from the original infestation of the Bundy ranch when left untreated.

Spreading in the sense that the same hundred or so folks who were at the Bundy ranch are now at the refuge. Not spreading in the sense that there is any political momentum behind them.

What's spreading is the advocacy of defense of our public lands. You see more and more protesters showing up throughout Oregon and online demanding action against these occupiers. Those groups are raising real money and seeing their membership grow. People who love and depend on these public lands have woken up to the attack posed by the Bundy's and others. They are now much more engaged on this issue.
posted by humanfont at 5:16 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

An open letter from the staff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
posted by gamera at 8:07 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]

They're rummaging through all the artifacts now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:14 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]

What an outrage... How dare the refuge workers leave artifacts where anyone who breaks into the facility and stays for weeks fully armed can just rifle through those boxes willy nilly?
posted by mochapickle at 8:57 PM on January 20, 2016

Looking over the links, it looks like an 1868 treaty requires the US Army to protect the tribe from encroaching settlers.
posted by mikelieman at 12:32 AM on January 21, 2016

Oregon Governor Angry with how Feds have Handled Standoff (TPM)
posted by newdaddy at 4:09 AM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

It appears that there's a murderer in their midst.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:37 AM on January 21, 2016

Oregon standoff: One of protesters has murder conviction

California and federal law generally prohibit felons from possessing firearms. Wampler told The Oregonian that he can legally possess a gun. Cipolla, the San Luis Obispo Sheriff's Office spokesman, said Wampler cannot have a gun because of his murder conviction.

...

Wampler has been outspoken about gun rights. In 2013, he wrote a letter to the editor in The San Luis Obispo Tribune commending the local sheriff's stance "against any federal infringement of our Second Amendment rights..." In the letter, he wrote, "We gun owners in San Luis Obispo owe a big thank you" to the sheriff.

Thugs.
posted by bluecore at 5:38 AM on January 21, 2016

Looking over the links, it looks like an 1868 treaty requires the US Army to protect the tribe from encroaching settlers.

And a bunch of armed ranchers ignored the law and the government didn't enforce the law and now it's not tribal land any more.

This sort of shit is constant throughout US history.
posted by idiopath at 6:12 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

We mock the Sovereign Citizen movement, but in a very real way they are right. We have a farce of a democracy, and when the supposed law of the land goes toe to toe with a white man with a big hat and some guns, history tells us the guy with the big hat is surprisingly likely to get his way, elected leadership be damned.
posted by idiopath at 6:31 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well definitely there is an overlap...but there's a difference between getting the government to back off you with a gun and getting them to back off you with magical legal incantations.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:33 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

The tribe had guns too, but the ranchers had big hats.
posted by idiopath at 6:52 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

To be less glib, the violence and theft by ranchers is treated differently because of mythology and romantic legend, because they carry the signifiers of "real American" which makes enforcing laws against them difficult. It's absurd, it's injust, and it's simply how things are.
posted by idiopath at 6:59 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

We clearly have a lot to learn from the history of this dispute about water rights, land management, and sustainable farming in dry regions. How much of how this plays out is going to be around the role and reach of law enforcement, and how much about the power of anti-government industrialists and their cronies?
posted by sneebler at 7:29 AM on January 21, 2016

Ursula Le Guin appears to have shaken up the editorial staff at the OregonLive as the tone has changed to one with some fire. Statements need to be not simply reported and left unchallenged but corrected and called what they are, this is a good start;
At the refuge, it's time to pull the plug: Editorial
Here's what's clear: Unchecked disregard for federal law and public property, combined with cunning media manipulation, rewards delusional behavior among people whose lives are otherwise spent enjoying discounted grazing rates on lands own by American taxpayers.

Here's what's really clear: It's really time to go.
...
Is there a middle ground in this mess? The occupiers say no, and their actions prove it. They have, after all, mugged democracy. The occupation can thus be named: an unconstitutional taking from the people. It is unlikely Finicum or Bundy would grasp this fact. Despite their rhetoric, they are not giving anything back to Harney County residents, who know theft when they see it.

Another op-ed, (more a looking and pointing and laughing but still cathartic).
The Answer To The Question On Everyone’s Mind: Why Haven’t These Terrorists Been Arrested? By Charles Topher
Ammon Bundy decided to show up at a community meeting in Burns, Oregon Tuesday night, most likely hoping to hear all kinds of support from local residents. Instead, he heard the call from the people he is supposedly championing to get the hell out of their country and never come back.

He heard a message from residents, local law enforcement and even a judge that was nothing short of crystal clear. They’re tired of he and his band of idiots playing soldier on their behalf, wreaking havoc on their communities, scaring their children and hijacking the cause of two jailed local ranchers who don’t want and never asked for their support.

This is the PDF of the 'Frequently Asked Questions' handout from the community meeting. Rather mediocre answers.

The clueless destruction ramps up but at least they found some gravel to mitigate the muck;
Militants Plow New Roads At Refuge, Possibly Damaging Artifacts
Kevin Foerster, the agency’s Pacific region chief, also denounced the construction.

“There’s a reason why there’s not a road there,” said Foerster. “If there was a need for a road in that particular location, we would have over the past 108 years put a road in that location.”

The agency said the action is likely a violation of the Archaeological Resources Protection Act, also known as the ARPA.

The Governor pointing blame at the Federal response (while true) is still laughable as her office demonstrated 18 days of complete paralysis and silence and didn't offer a single reassurance to the citizens. There was a two sentence statement released on behalf of the Paiute people ... that was it. So it only took a volcanic eruption mascarading as a community meeting before, "pressure will be applied ... on federal authorities". As if the Governor's office has no resources it can muster. Perhaps since the substation cameras appear to be a post 9/11 North American standard that was created to protect the electrical grid from terrorist attack, she could call the Mounties to ride down atop their horses and dressed in their red serge uniforms (the officers not the horses wear the coats, horses have blue with gold (yellow) fringed blankets) and watch the cult meltdown as all their fears ride forth ... I know I'm being silly but they appear delusional and on edge enough that a 5 year old with a laser pointer hitting the tower could probably cause the place to turn into something resembling a blender without a top.
posted by phoque at 11:42 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

They're rummaging through all the artifacts now.

Classic concern-trolling, as the comments on the Gawker article point out. These are the guys who would have driven the Burns Paiute Tribe off the reservation in the 1800s, and Ryan Bundy himself appears to think that Native Americans don't really exist anymore.

They broke into what is certainly a locked curation facility, just like they hacked into the computers, in order to -- what? Find evidence that FWS failed to meet curation standards under federal regulations? Certainly not. They're looking for something they can use to bolster their position in the public eye. Or even sell the artifacts to fund their "protest" (just like ISIS).

But I would be seriously surprised if the Burns Paiute Tribe fell for this kind of bullshittery.

(I could go on at length about why the collection is still in the Refuge buildings, instead of a museum, but suffice it to say that there are a lot of artifacts excavated from federal lands, and federal land management agencies don't have a lot of money to spend sorting through them and paying to have them stored at an approved repository.)
posted by suelac at 11:53 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

One more article;
Oregon Standoff Is Legally Untenable by David J. Hayes
Unfortunately, for Bundy and company, the law is not on their side. A unanimous U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1917 in Utah Power & Light Co. v. United States that the U.S. Constitution's property clause — which explicitly grants Congress the "Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States" — vests the United States with "full power … to protect its lands, to control their use, and to prescribe in what manner others may acquire rights in them."
...
The decision to disengage from a volatile physical confrontation in Nevada may have been a prudent one, but there is no excuse for the long delay in bringing a prosecution against Bundy for his blatant defiance of a court order. In order to preserve the rule of law, we must not hesitate to enforce it against those who refuse to abide by it — particularly when they incite others to do the same.
posted by phoque at 11:55 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can the Oregon Governor call up national guard units to suppress the rebellion? Alternatively why not use a state police SWAT team to deal with it?
posted by humanfont at 12:21 PM on January 21, 2016

Can the Oregon Governor call up national guard units to suppress the rebellion? Alternatively why not use a state police SWAT team to deal with it?

I think the response they'd give you is that it's Federal land, so it's Federal jurisdiction, so Federal law enforcement units must respond to the refuge. She certainly could have them deployed to the town of Burns to give a general sense of law in charge, but let's be honest: the odds are this eventually ends with someone dead on one of the sides, so she'd rather not have her fingerprints on it when the blame game starts.
posted by bluecore at 12:27 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ryan Haas of OPB News tweeted a phone conversation between FBI and Bundy starting here. I don't know how to storify this, so I'll copy:

Ammon Bundy now at the airport talking to people from the FBI. Says the FBI would be the only ones to escalate

Bundy appears to be on the phone with a law enforcement official. Not clear who.

Bundy says "people are well on their way to reclaiming their lands" and the last thing he wants to do is leave

Bundy says militants will leave only when the wildlife refuge is turned over to the county.

Person on phone says only Congress could turn over the federal land. Bundy says "well, let's get Congress together then"

Bundy now says federal officials should let the Hammonds out of prison to return to their homes.

Bundy says releasing the Hammonds would "make sure this case doesn't set a presidence"

Person on the phone says everyone involved "needs to stay committed" to a peaceful resolution. Bundy says only the FBI would make it end bad

Bundy says sentiment of the community has swayed in favor of the militants.

Bundy says lawmakers from New Mexico are coming to meet him today. And he'd like to continue the conversation w/ feds later

Bundy says he'd like to meet the person on the phone face-to-face tomorrow at the airport. Person says let's arrange a phone call at least.

Bundy says militants haven't been using phones or internet at the refuge. Says he has 3200 unread emails.

Person on the phone is encouraging regular calls with the militants. Bundy agrees to talk tomorrow at 11 a.m.

Bundy asks if the person on the phone is LDS. Person says no. "Dang, I lost the bet," says Bundy.

Phone conversation is over now. @JohnLGC is on the ground and will report today on this conversation. Follow him.

There were several heavily armed FBI guards at this meeting as well. Greeted the group cordially, discussing cold weather.

There was a man who identified himself as FBI negotiator there as well.
posted by bluecore at 12:40 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think actually the way they are handling the artifact is an example of how their support is eroding. Like, forgive me but I just don't trust that they actually care about the state of the artifacts. Yet here they are making videos about the shameful neglect. They are reaching for reasons for others to support them. The longer they stay there, and the feds don't break down the door, the more they look like assholes - and the less anyone will trust their mobilization calls. I think it's important to remember that people like the oath keepers are staying out of this one, whereas otherwise it's just the sort of thing that they would be all over. They are burning political capital, not gaining it.
posted by corb at 12:44 PM on January 21, 2016

More militiamen arrive at Malheur

“God wants us here, there’s a sense that’s beckoning and it comes from heaven,” militiaman Kelly Gneiting said. “We’re doing what’s right, we’re doing what the founding fathers would do because we’re inspired by God, also.”

Sorry, but there's really no way to reason with people who think like this.
posted by zakur at 1:07 PM on January 21, 2016 [6 favorites]

More of them?

*sigh*

There's just no way this will end quietly...
posted by Thorzdad at 1:10 PM on January 21, 2016

Sounds less like a protest, and more like they're starting a new religious denomination.
They can call themselves Seventh-Day Opportunists.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:13 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

Militia head warns feds: Don’t ‘Waco’ the Oregon occupiers unless you want a ‘bloody, brutal civil war’

So yeah, the only way the feds can fuck this up is if they Waco it.
posted by Talez at 1:20 PM on January 21, 2016

How do the Feds not "Waco" the occupiers if the occupiers start shooting?

Or, by "not Waco" do they really mean "Don't try to remove the occupiers"? Which, y'know, is the only way the occupiers are ever going to leave.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:24 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

The oathkeepers aren't exactly unified on that front. For one thing, the pacific patriots network consists of many oathkeepers - They may not be acting within what the head of the national organization wants or officially as "oathkeepers," but it's many of the same people.

Also, many of the regional oathkeepers do not really follow the lead of the national press-facing organization. I did find something interesting while trying to dig up more specifics...

Some of the local oath keepers were actively asking the sheriff to reject federal authority back in December. This is worth a read, because it includes much of the insanity surrounding the use of real vs "legal" names and other quirks of "sovereignty", and it also features Ammon Bundy at a Burns town meeting back at the same time period, before this whole thing. Bundy starts speaking 10 minutes on, and it goes on for like 50 minutes - I haven't watched all of this yet, but it looks like he starts advocating for the methods used on the Bundy ranch.

Not sure if any of this has been posted before.
posted by MysticMCJ at 1:25 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

An examination of the paperwork will reveal that virtually every single American State Citizen has been deemed a “foundling” and ward of the state, the unwanted child of an unwed mother—- almost 400 million of us, and not a Daddy to be found? This is the result of a systematic and repugnant scheme by international commercial banks and the ABA, and again, all serving to change the natural venue on the land to a court venue in the international jurisdiction of the sea.

So... "international commercial banks". That's Jews, right?
posted by running order squabble fest at 1:34 PM on January 21, 2016

Thorzdad: How do the Feds not "Waco" the occupiers if the occupiers start shooting?

Yup, that's the paradox. Also, no matter who starts shooting first, they'll claim the Feds fired the first shot, and all the fringe groups will believe it because they're prone to conspiracy theories (see also: Jade Helm nuttiness).
posted by bluecore at 1:35 PM on January 21, 2016

So... "international commercial banks". That's Jews, right?

Or the Swiss. Is there a history of anti-Swiss paranoia in America?

No? Probably the Jews then.
posted by maxsparber at 1:42 PM on January 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Definitely the Jews, just like when Cruz was talking about banks and the media being "New York culture."
posted by zombieflanders at 1:50 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fringe groups will believe whatever the fuck they want to believe no matter what happens.
posted by Artw at 1:57 PM on January 21, 2016

"New York culture" is actually a two-fer...Jews and liberals.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:57 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Don't forget the immoral homosexuals destroying the bonds of marriage! Cruz didn't even bother trying to hide the homophobia.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:01 PM on January 21, 2016

Also, no matter who starts shooting first, they'll claim the Feds fired the first shot, and all the fringe groups will believe it because they're prone to conspiracy theories (see also: Jade Helm nuttiness).

Fuck 'em. Send in the US Army. Let's see how they do against some fucking tanks.
posted by mikelieman at 2:08 PM on January 21, 2016

Or, by "not Waco" do they really mean "Don't try to remove the occupiers"? Which, y'know, is the only way the occupiers are ever going to leave.

Bullshit. Bullshit! This false dichotomy is going to lead to people getting killed, when there are perfectly simple, time tested solutions. Like not delivering the fucking mail. Like not letting people return after they let them out. Like avoiding physical confrontation, but announce that you will be issuing warrants for various crimes, and if they fail to appear in court, they will be convicted and lose their gun rights.

It's really fucking easy to be a glorious martyr in a gun battle. It's much harder to deal with boredom, lack of supplies, not having anything to wipe your ass with, sleeping in the cold, etc.
posted by corb at 2:08 PM on January 21, 2016 [10 favorites]

> Cruz didn't even bother trying to hide the homophobia
along with the overwhelming majority of our representatives and senators. Unless you can call DOMA anything else.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:11 PM on January 21, 2016

> Fuck 'em. Send in the US Army. Let's see how they do against some fucking tanks.

That didn't work out so well last time. See: Waco.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:11 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, agree with corb 100% - I'd like to think we could at least entertain the option of at least stopping mail before we jump to heavy infantry and armored vehicles.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:14 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

An examination of the paperwork will reveal that virtually every single American State Citizen has been deemed a “foundling” and ward of the state, the unwanted child of an unwed mother—- almost 400 million of us, and not a Daddy to be found? This is the result of a systematic and repugnant scheme by international commercial banks and the ABA, and again, all serving to change the natural venue on the land to a court venue in the international jurisdiction of the sea.

I know what I'm going to do the next time the "IRS" calls.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:16 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

That didn't work out so well last time. See: Waco.

Honestly, I don't give a shit. They're alleged criminals that need to be hauled in front of a judge for arraignment, and if they don't want to come peacefully, then that's their choice. I bet the FBI's snipers are way better than these assholes, and I wouldn't cry if a drone dropped a few guided bombs on them if that's what it took to avoid any innocent people getting killed. I figure if the people in GITMO don't get due process, neither should these guys...


And it's not "Two Wrongs don't make a right"... It's "If you're going to be wrong ( torturing people in GITMO ) be consistent.
posted by mikelieman at 2:16 PM on January 21, 2016

Another thing is to have local law enforcement give them tickets for anything assholish they're doing in the actual town itself - not arrests that bring confrontation, but just the good-old-boy police there saying calmly without grabbing their weapons, "Hey man, you know, whatever you're doing there is one thing, but you're harassing this nice lady who's just trying to get her mail. We don't like that here. Here's a notice for a court appearance."

Because that kind of stuff is what's going to lose them even more broad support. It's easy to be like "Fuck yeah, stand up against The Man" but a lot harder to support "I yell at ladies at grocery stores, fuck yeah" or whatever other harassment they were doing.
posted by corb at 2:18 PM on January 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yeah, if the FBI is skipping doing basic stuff (like picking up these idiots when they decide to roll into town) in favor of some future direct assault, they are morons. That was the stupid thing about Waco -- there was plenty of opportunity to pick up Koresh quietly in town, but they opted to make the first move a massive raid, toting along reporters for the show.

Armed assault may end up being the answer in the end when you have people determined to be martyrs, but explore the options in between nothing and massive raid first. Hell, just fucking charging them with the crimes they are committing would be a start.
posted by tavella at 2:20 PM on January 21, 2016 [7 favorites]

If you're going to be wrong ( torturing people in GITMO ) be consistent.

I think i'll simply go with "no" as an answer to that.

We can agree to disagree if you wish.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:00 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

MysticMCJ's link to the OathKeepers' blog features, on the bottom at the "next post" link, a tasty cure for flu, pimples and bladder infections, all as easy as your morning toast. Alt-beliefs merge in conspiracists like lines of longitude at the poles.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:08 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

Depressing: BLM Considers Reinstating Hammond Grazing Leases These have been going on for some time -pre-takeover- but this kind of spin isn’t good.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:10 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's a long con, when they reinstate the lease they're going to invite all the Bundy folks over there for a big celebration party, but then the FBI is going to scoop them all up in a giant net they set up ahead of time. Finally, the plan makes sense.
posted by Drinky Die at 4:17 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]

It sounds like the conversations with the Hammond family over grazing leases was started long before this started. The ranch is a business and there is no reason that it couldnt regain access to the federal leasing system provided that it demonstrates an ability to reform and follow the rules.

The Hammonds have copperated and surrendered. They shouldn't be punished because of the Bundy's actions.
posted by humanfont at 4:28 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

No, and the positive end would likely be that the Bundy folks still won’t abandon the refuge (as it says in the article). But the baseline optics are pretty meh.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:44 PM on January 21, 2016

The FBI have called them! say they will call them again tomorrow, probably deciding on terms of its surrender.
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM on January 21, 2016

Well, “deciding on” in a pretty vague way, I suspect. My guess is it’ll still be at least a week.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:18 PM on January 21, 2016

Takes a lot of time to disband a federal agency and arrange for handover of land.
posted by Artw at 5:24 PM on January 21, 2016 [8 favorites]

Well, Rome wasn’t burned in a day.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:36 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well, Rome wasn’t burned in a day.

It only took three days.
posted by Talez at 5:42 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

Militants Plow New Roads At Refuge, Possibly Damaging Artifacts
posted by Artw at 6:31 PM on January 21, 2016

The windy telephone negotiation between Ammon and FBI. Ammon did most of the talking and made all his usual bizarre claims. One funny thing was him trying to demonstrate they were more responsible than the federal employees and described how they discovered a fire hazard at the fire station, then promised they wouldn't use the explosives they found there. It is a few boxes of flares and fuses designed to ignite fires in both damp and dry environments. (So they are actually well equipped to torch the place) The caption of these pictures (caps in original);
EVIDENCE of HYPOCRISY
Crystalized flares stored next to gasoline and detonator caps, and get this.....one of the ingredients of THERMITE....highly explosive....another great example of "do as I say, not as I do"!

There are a couple more and all can be viewed here (you may need to log into facebook to see them).
posted by phoque at 6:56 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

one of the ingredients of THERMITE

Rust?
posted by dirigibleman at 6:59 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

More on those "negotiations."

"And take some other people that have some more experience to really get together on this and work together, to find a good resolution,” said the negotiator.

“I want to make sure that you understand: The resolution is the Constitution of the United States,” said Bundy.

Again, how does one reason with this kind of crazy?
posted by zakur at 7:01 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]

Rust?

Aluminum? Guys, that's just the recycling.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:02 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

“I want to make sure that you understand: The resolution is the Constitution of the United States,” said Bundy.

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

I'm not sure where else to go from here. There's nothing in the constitution that says "Except wildlife refuges. Fuck those things."
posted by Talez at 7:06 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]

that negotiator dude's gotta have ice water running through his veins. there's no way i would have made it through that call without laughing.
posted by indubitable at 7:17 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]

You don't understand. His demand is the actual Declaration of Independence, because it has a treasure map on the back.
posted by figurant at 7:19 PM on January 21, 2016 [17 favorites]

Negotiators have to act like they have ice water running through their veins. It's a very difficult and particular skill to be able to talk someone down from a suicide ledge.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:03 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

The FBI got Bundy onto their stage. Then made him and his pals stand around in the cold and talk on a cell phone to agree to have more meetings.
posted by humanfont at 9:26 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]

FBI Defends 'Measured' Response to Occupation of Oregon Wildlife Refuge
posted by Artw at 12:04 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's a fairly tepid response, but at least they're acknowledging that it's their ball.
posted by Archelaus at 12:57 AM on January 22, 2016

I don't know how you negotiate with this kind of delusion. This is a guy who heard a chant of "GO HOME! GO HOME!" and thought, "You know what? I think they're warming to me!" This is a guy with a high school education who thinks he's suddenly discovered a loophole in a 229 year old document that invalidates the entire way our country runs, like it's a cell phone contract where he's the first to read the small print.
posted by bluecore at 5:33 AM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Of course the biggest carrot the FBI could offer is no criminal charges if the militants all leave and go home. It's a really bad precedent and would piss off a ton of people, but man, that easy way out must be a little bit tempting.

Though I guess there's still the possibility these guys are too dumb to take that deal.
posted by ryanrs at 6:04 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

This isn't a negotiation, it is more like trying to talk someone down during a mental health crisis.
posted by humanfont at 6:28 AM on January 22, 2016 [8 favorites]

ryanrs: Though I guess there's still the possibility these guys are too dumb to take that deal.

Oh, they're definitely too dumb to take the deal. They truly, genuinely, arrogantly believe we're dumb sheep that have been duped into misinterpreting the Constitution, and if we would just "look into it" and "read a book" we would see they're actually heroic patriots who are defending the Founding Fathers' true intentions.

This is an interesting read on Cleon Skousen, who wrote the pocket Constitution Bundy uses and passes out.
posted by bluecore at 6:58 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

This is an interesting read on Cleon Skousen, who wrote the pocket Constitution Bundy uses and passes out.

Cliven Bundy's racism echoes Skousen.
posted by Brian B. at 7:25 AM on January 22, 2016

Re: Skousen- That IS a good article.

It doesn't explicitly say this, but I think I can make the assumption based on a few things there, like the word count, that the amendments were conveniently left out, leaving this as an "old testament" only constitution.

The booklet, which features George Washington on its cover, sells for 35 cents each. Those looking for low-cost Constitutions include school districts in Florida, which were forced to apologize in 2013 after they included the pocket Constitution among their civics materials without reviewing the added material.

Kind of a worn out trope at this point, but it was pretty much guaranteed to be either Florida or Texas doing something like this, right? Of course, Texas would never apologize... This is a horrifying thing, though - and I'd love to know what other large groups have purchased and distributed in mass.

In death, Skousen became a favorite of conservative Glenn Beck

Of course. Arrrrrgh. This is becoming a check-list for mainstream right-wing extremism and propaganda.

GOP presidential candidate Ben Carson has spoken glowingly of the book.

Yep, it's a check-list.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:52 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

I can understand not attacking the buildings directly. There are hundreds of gallons of gasoline an diesel stored in adjacent buildings and the damage of it all going Waco is going to be a lot more than the several million spent so far - not to mention the damage to the Native American artifacts and surrounding land.

What I can not understand is why the principal leaders are allowed to roam about the county without being arrested. This is a smack in the face to every person of color who has been killed by by both local and federal authorities while protesting exactly this kind of injustice.

Also to MysticMcJ: It's not a checklist , It's a cookbook !!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:23 AM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

This isn't a negotiation, it is more like trying to talk someone down during a mental health crisis.

An armed someone. But more to the point, there's no evidence that Bundy, etc are mentally ill in any meaningful definition of the word. They certainly act competently in their daily life. They are not demonstrating schizophrenia or severe depression or messianic psychopathy. They have a set of beliefs about the US legal system that are factually incorrect. That belief has brought them in armed conflict with law enforcement. Labeling this "mental health crisis" is disrespectful both to the rule of law and to people with actual mental health problems. They are simply very odd criminals.
posted by Nelson at 8:25 AM on January 22, 2016 [7 favorites]

Hmm. Maybe they're "fanatics" then. How do you deal with people like the Freemen who have invented their own reality, which they attempt to foist on the rest of us? I know labelling people can be unhealthy, but it does help identify the dramatis personae in the public discussion.
posted by sneebler at 8:32 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Nelson: I think a good argument can be made that many criminals are mentally ill to some degree. Not every mental illness manifests as a sad depressive episode. Different types of mental illness can manifest as violence or excessive paranoia - and they are all very different things.

Respectfully , I believe that your equating a person with depression (for example) to a violent paranoid by simply categorizing them both as "mental illness" goes an even greater disservice to those individuals who lead otherwise normal lives through therapy and medication.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:35 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Having a belief so erroneous yet so deeply held that it cause you to instigate armed stand-offs with the most powerful government in the world seems to suggest mental health issues pretty strongly. Calling them "simply very odd criminals" denies the miliue that these folks have sprang from and the warping it's done to their world-view.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:45 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hi, as an actually mentally ill person, both "these guys are mentally ill" and " a violent paranoid by simply categorizing them both as "mental illness" goes an even greater disservice to those individuals who lead otherwise normal lives through therapy and medication" are equally offensive so maybe stop?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:56 AM on January 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

Having a misinformed view of the world that is reinforced by professional con men like the Bundys without much to challenge that view is a very different thing than having mental health issues. You can have a vastly different or misinformed world view while still being in perfect mental health - especially if that's being reinforced by a charismatic leader.

Fanaticism isn't the same thing as a "mental health" issue, but calling it such is a great way of lumping yet another societal problem into the umbrella of mental health issues, and serves nothing more than to ostracize those who may have any mental health issue of any degree.

Tackling mental health issues will not solve or prevent this problem long term, and most definitely won't for the immediate term... Education as well as enforcement of existing laws and otherwise presenting a challenge to this world view may, though. Anyone who is following Bundy has no reason to believe that they will be challenged at this point, and lack of any punitive or preventative action is strongly reinforcing that.

Calling this a mental health issue - along with the planned parenthood shooting, and other similar issues born out of fanaticism - is a really convenient way of getting away from the actual hard problems here. Not that mental health problems are easy to solve from a societal standpoint, far from it - but given the lack of public understanding as well as the lack of hard science around it, it's a really great way of shifting responsibility over to something that we have no control of whatsoever. Mental health issues can certainly exacerbate some of these problems, but they are most definitely not the root of those problems.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:01 AM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm going to go on record and say that there are many, many problems with labeling everyone willing to take on the US government over their deeply held beliefs as mentally ill. While you may think their beliefs are erroneous, there is nothing preventing people from appealing for redress of grievances on the grounds that the grievances are invalid. We do not want to start that precedent, which I am sure you will be used against protesters of all stripes, even ones you agree with. Protesters should not be treated differently based on whether or not the government thinks they are correct.
posted by corb at 9:03 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have a much simpler reason to reject the label "mentally ill" for the seditionists. It suggests they may not be criminally responsible for their actions. Everything we've seen in public from Bundy indicates he is completely competent, rational, and fully aware of his actions and the consequences of his actions. Some of the hangers-on, I'm not so sure.

(For some interesting adjacent history, there was a huge debate about the mental competence of Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber. He was found competent to stand trial and then held criminally responsible for his actions. The details from the case at the time were very interesting.)
posted by Nelson at 9:10 AM on January 22, 2016 [9 favorites]

It really does seem that "mental health" always comes up in conjunction with extremism in a very reactive fashion, when something is at the point where it would be convenient to say "if only we had treated this earlier - i guess there's nothing we can do about it now" and shift the hard-to-solve problems into one perceived as unsolvable. It also has the bonus of being relatively apolitical in the national spotlight- blaming difficult issues or tragedies on mental illness has the bonus of bipartisan support.

I hate knowing that if this does end in some sort of tragic slaughter that the spectre of mental health will likely be invoked in the national spotlight yet again, as opposed to talking about the more politically difficult issues surrounding it.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:11 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Even if it was a mental health issue, what would we do? Air drop a bunch of professionals armed with an illustrated DSM and leather couches into the wildlife reserve?
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:15 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think anyone is suggesting insanity defenses for these idiots. However, we have some downright delusional armed men making demands on the government, and I see nothing to be gained by accepting that their thought/belief processes aren't riddled with dysfunction. It's not about should-coulda-woulda treatment of mental health issues, it's about acknowledging that the Bundy militia is currently not operating in the same consensus reality as the rest of us. Ignoring that fact isn't going to resolve it.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:16 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think anyone has been suggesting otherwise.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:24 AM on January 22, 2016

Delusional, dysfunctional, and not operating in the same consensus reality are specific enough that they make it clear your problem is with their views and their actions, not their mental or psychological state. Bringing mental health more generally into the equation is just going to distract from the argument about their views and actions in many unhelpful ways.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:24 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

If they're mentally ill terrorists, they're still terrorists.
posted by mikelieman at 9:31 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think anyone has been suggesting otherwise.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:01 AM on January 22, 2016

This stuff is classic fundamentalist, Utah thought and actions more from fifty years ago, but exascerbated by right wing readings encouraged by the church in response to perceived threats.

The racism of the mainstream LDS church, though changed by prophecy, was dropped, but not so in the polygamyst sects. Bundy is one of fourteen children, often those numbers indicate plural marriage. There is a fringe of fundamentalism that absolutely encourages magical thinking and offers an illusion of great power, intellectual power, augmented by heavenly intervention in earthly matters. There is a deep belief, unshakable the US Constitution is a divinely inspired document, (even though it is well known to be authored by at least some, pragmatic deists.) The constitution is sort of a bible, but part of their magical power is, only the faithful can properly translate the meaning of this document.

Though the fundies also believe in being subject to the rules of nations our nation is ruled by an African American, which is intolerable to them, and it is partially the reason for this civil disobedience. This is one set of roots. They believe their special connection to God sanctions everything they do. With regard to the Native Americans, they are viewed as disobedient lost children of Israel, and treasuring antiquities or their traditional ways, is just misinfomed blasphemy.

This is why the Bundys were out riding with Phil Lyman down on sacred spaces near Blanding, Utah, at Recapture Canyon. This is why Representative Chris Cannon of Utah, publicly decries Native American sites and antiquities as worthless.

The delusions of Ammon Bundy have been served up to him over his lifetime, much like a religious jihadi trained in a radicalized school. God tells him he is right, there is a considerable community that also tells him he is right. When this connects with the disaffected on the web, people in pain who are looking for a cause that presents as heroic, more noble than garden variety racism, or fear, or response to the religious terrorism of apocalyptic thought, and preparation to make apocalypse; then you get people coming in to warm by this noble seeming fire.

Some of the talk on the web is the cities will be destroyed, and these lands are necessary for new righteous homesteading. I have heard this from what I used to consider reasonably normal folk. They are planning their post apocalypse government. Bundy thinks it starts at the Mahleur. I think Talibundy is the most apt descriptor. We don't want this. But, they view the bird refuge as displacing them. They view themselves as godly and above paying America, to use their lands for profit.

In certain people, religion takes the form of mental illness, when greed, and cultural narcissism crawl under that umbrella, things get awful for the most vulnerable. Birds and wildlife, gone, women and children gone, then the land is cleared for war. These guys would rather die than recognise their delusional state. They are usually abuse victims, all of them.

Anyway, they plowed a fire break around the refuge building full of artifacts. This is so parallel to Daesh's doings at Palmyra.
posted by Oyéah at 10:22 AM on January 22, 2016 [13 favorites]

new Oregon motto / flag
posted by idiopath at 10:59 AM on January 22, 2016

new Oregon motto / flag

Feel free to mess with Oregon

If you're white, that is.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:04 AM on January 22, 2016

The constitution is sort of a bible, but part of their magical power is, only the faithful can properly translate the meaning of this document.

That's what I was referring to above. This is clearly a political issue, but how do you talk to people [who are carrying guns] when they believe stuff that's so tangential to the reality our society's principles and laws are based on?

Am I exaggerating this problem? I read Anna Von Whatchamacallit's Epistle to the Harney County Judge last night, so I may not be back from the magic kingdom yet.
posted by sneebler at 11:22 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

That epistle thing is stone-cold bonkers.
posted by newdaddy at 11:48 AM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

That’s what I was referring to above. This is clearly a political issue, but how do you talk to people [who are carrying guns] when they believe stuff that’s so tangential to the reality our society's principles and laws are based on?

While I don’t know the answer to this, it’s important to remember that FBI negotiators have dealt with these situations before. And it’s hard, really hard, but it does get done. Chapter six (caution: PDF) of Catherine Wessinger’s How The Millenium Comes Violently covers the Montana Freemen, and it’s well worth a read if you want to get a sense of the rocky road towards success. (If you’re interested in violent Millennial groups, the whole book is a fun -if at times dense- read. Also, see this old MeFi post on Waco.)

Insert obvious jokes about roving bands of youths armed with iPhones and Twitter accounts here.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:12 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

That epistle thing is stone-cold bonkers.

I'm so glad people are reading it - the thing is, it's not like that's a statistical outlier for the whole "sovereign community" - that's pretty much the baseline.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:18 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ugh..... A recent video by one of the militants shows their "Messianic Rabbi" blowing a shofar decked out in full Tallit drag.

The misappropriation of the Federal Reserve doesn't get me nearly so steamed as the misappropriation of my cultural heritage. Oregon Pauite tribe members - I so feel your pain right now.
_{Swear to G-d, just the teensiest bit of Divine Retribution here and I'll be back in Schul the next Saturday for good!}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:29 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

From the "Epistle" above:

a commercial obligation lien of $279 trillion dollars has been assessed against the American Bar Association, the International Bar Association, and the “US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE”

$279 TRILLION dollars !
posted by Death and Gravity at 12:35 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Geez with that kind of money you can probably get to Operating Thetan Level 7
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:38 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

PINKIES WERE BITTEN
posted by indubitable at 12:39 PM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

So, tried to read the Epistle, couldn't, took a couple of shots of espresso, tried again, still couldn't.

Ow, my brain?

I find myself wondering at what point these people left reality, exactly. What the path was.
posted by Archelaus at 12:41 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

$279 TRILLION dollars !

I'm surprised it wasn't ELEVENTY BAZILLION GAZILLION DOLLARS!
More and more it's starting to resemble bratty children playing an elaborate game of dress-up.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:47 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

...a commercial obligation lien of $279 trillion dollars has been assessed against the American Bar Association, the International Bar Association, and the “US DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE”

I've often wondered...How does a legal dispute between fellow Sovereigns get resolved? I assume the dispute would come before one of their sovereign courts (or whatever they call them) but, the whole belief system is so heavily based on magical hooey and interpretation that I can easily imagine the party that loses the dispute declaring the entire procedure invalid due to {insert magical interpretive mumbo jumbo constitutionality} and refusing to abide by any decision that doesn't fall their way. It's practically a system based entirely on "because I say so."
posted by Thorzdad at 1:08 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

Whoevers eyes glaze over first looses, or gunplay, one assumes.
posted by Artw at 1:21 PM on January 22, 2016

How does a legal dispute between fellow Sovereigns get resolved?

Minted silver coinage or e-gold.
posted by mikelieman at 2:56 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Vaping contest for the cityfolk.
posted by Artw at 2:58 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

> I've often wondered...How does a legal dispute between fellow Sovereigns get resolved?

Perhaps they could create a larger body that is governed in a representative fashion by their peers to oversee and broker such disputes from an objective and independent perspective

Ahh, who am I kidding... The answer is guns.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:07 PM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

They'd probably just run to the government for anything other than dodging taxes and planning regulations they don't like.
posted by Artw at 3:17 PM on January 22, 2016

So the word is the negotiations with the FBI broke off because Bundy said he didn't recognize the FBI's right to be there. (Saw this coming when the negotiator got him to agree that only Congress could change the status of the land-- "Crap! I just admitted it's actually Federal land!")

He went to see the Sheriff to argue with him about it being Federal land, but the Sheriff wouldn't meet with him. OPB news is saying Bundy is just trying to gather evidence for a "Citizens’ Grand Jury" that's he's already secretly formed with his Colorado "judge" that will try the Sheriff for failing to do his duty to the people. In previous instances, this leads to lots of harassment or illegitimate liens against the victim, sometimes even assault or kidnapping.
posted by bluecore at 3:33 PM on January 22, 2016

He went to see the Sheriff to argue with him...

The bum went to the Sheriff and no one slapped cuffs on him? Uneffingbelievable.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:47 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

The secret plan!
posted by Artw at 3:49 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you arrest the leader of a bunch of dudes with guns who would all happily be martyrs, you’re making a pretty risky move…
posted by Going To Maine at 3:50 PM on January 22, 2016

Managed to read that Epistle right through and it wasn't until right at the end that the vague feeling of familiarity I had felt all the way through clicked in - it reads just like the timecube guy wrote it!
posted by dg at 3:59 PM on January 22, 2016

The Oregon Militia Is Stealing From All of Us - And they've got friends in Congress all too eager to help.
posted by Artw at 4:00 PM on January 22, 2016

bluecore, what's your source regarding the failing negotiations/sheriff visit? I haven't seen anything about this, but could very well be overlooking some legit sources.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:01 PM on January 22, 2016

The sheriff visit was linked upthread someplace quite a few days ago.
posted by hippybear at 4:06 PM on January 22, 2016

Oh, I see. I'd mistakenly assumed that the sheriff visit followed the breakdown in negotiations.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:10 PM on January 22, 2016

a box and a stick and a string and a bear: bluecore, what's your source regarding the failing negotiations/sheriff visit?

Andre Dymburt of CBS KOIN News tweeted about it, including photos and videos. (note: he refers to Bundy arguing with a Sheriff, but this is technically a Sheriff from another county that was brought in for support.)

hippybear: The sheriff visit was linked upthread someplace quite a few days ago.

This was a different failed meeting that happened 5 hours ago.
posted by bluecore at 4:12 PM on January 22, 2016

Maybe there was another sheriff visit thing that happened that I am not aware of. It's been a rapidly unfolding situation of late.
posted by hippybear at 4:13 PM on January 22, 2016

And apparently there was!
posted by hippybear at 4:13 PM on January 22, 2016

Wait, so you're claiming the Harney county sheriff sent out a sheriff from a completely different county to argue with/block access from the militants who were there specifically to see the Harney co. sheriff? That makes absolutely no sense.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:43 PM on January 22, 2016

I got the impression from the reading that there's Sheriffs from neighboring/affiliated departments on-scene for support.
posted by Archelaus at 4:52 PM on January 22, 2016

The Sheriffs/Deputies were already brought in from other counties to support Sheriff Ward in town, so they were working the barricade. Bundy stopped by uninvited/unannounced and either Sheriff Ward wasn't there to meet him or didn't want to argue with Bundy because he knows the visit is essentially to get evidence for this kangaroo court-- Bundy wants everything on video so when Ward disagrees with his interpretation of the Constitution he can play it in his secret fake court and yell, "See! He's a traitor who isn't doing his duty to the people so he has no authority to ask me to leave." It's all a sham, and Sheriff Ward gains nothing by playing along with this farce. Also, by waving him back to the FBI negotiator he forces Bundy to acknowledge that the FBI has jurisdiction because it's Federal land.
posted by bluecore at 5:03 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

The meeting with the Sherrif happened today. Bundy badgered the Sherrif about whether he had given the FBI permission to operate in Harney County. The Sherrif told him the FBI and the county were cooperating. After that Bundy left. The Oregonian is covering this pretty well and amazingly, The Guardian. There are some travelers, ex-military who attended all three uncivil events, Cliven Bundy's ranch protest; the Recapture Canyon ride, and the Mahleur chest thumping extravaganza. In all three events more moderate types were driven out by these more radical travelers. I think someone is trying to orchestrate a nationwide civil action in tandem with the election and possible disruption of the entire government. I think this will appear to be about states rights, but again I think it will really be about the shift away from the fossil fuel economy. Utah has billions to make in that economy that will stay in the beautiful ground. I think a pre election coup is setting up. These guys jumped the gun a bit, but the lines of communication are setting up, and under investigation.

Harney County and San Juan County in Utah, have big Uranium deposits to be tapped. The Native Americans won't tolerate it.

There is a lot of stuff going on these guys at Mahleur are bait and red herring. This noise they are making serves a lot more than to keep the adrenalin up in folks with depression and PTSD all over the country. I worry this is going on to make pure crazy, seem more normal, credible background activity. This is playing out against the backdrop of the compressed world economy, the low oil prices, random spotty terrorism, millions of cold refugees, and everyone with planes in the air.

The last time the oil industry flexed, we got Iraq. On the ground in Oregon is a warm up act.
posted by Oyéah at 5:08 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]

Couple of article on the unraveling negotiations Bundy Gives Demands For Continued FBI Negotiations and Oregon standoff negotiations stumble as occupation leader questions FBI authority
posted by phoque at 5:11 PM on January 22, 2016

I think this will appear to be about states rights

I agree it will appear that way, no matter what comes of this - that's the traditional way to justify actions that benefit an elite few to the deficit of many more. It's invoked as a cover so often, it's become virtually impossible to have a discussion that's truly and actually about states rights.

My instincts are inclined to agree with the whole of your post, but my heart really hopes you are wrong.
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:33 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holy crap, Oyéah, that's some serious fall-of-the-republic analysis.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:48 PM on January 22, 2016

This has already metastasized to the point where it's not just about Ammo the Constitutional Law Professor and his gang of merry idiots, there's a county full of side groups waiting for the FBI to act and possibly retaliate, as well as a silent army of more sovereign citizens and whoever constitutes the "deep pockets" in the shadows waiting to expand the movement against the Federal government if this first test case is successful.

The time to end this was on days 1-3, before sleeper cell reinforcements had time to embed across the county. By waiting this long and giving Ammo so much apparent legitimacy (really, how is he still allowed complete freedom of movement?) the situation has gotten well and truly out of hand.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:49 PM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]

Today's episode of FBI vs Bundy seems to show that he's starting to break. How much longer will he be able to sustain the emotional energy and intensity of this tantrum without the reward of the Sherrif or FBI responding to his provocation.
posted by humanfont at 6:06 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

Today's episode of FBI vs Bundy seems to show that he's starting to break.

I do have to give the 'measured response' people the credit they are due.

Worst. Reality. Show. Ever.
posted by mikelieman at 6:50 PM on January 22, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's a shame law enforcement don't have some sort of "cuffs" they could use to restrain these guys, maybe by the hands? And "Arrest" them, stop them from moving around and doing crimes
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:07 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

As far as I know based on what I have read, there have been no arrest warrants issued for anyone at Malheur for any crimes committed there. Those who have outstanding warrants have been arrested when possible, as well as those found committing active crimes like stealing vehicles.

I don't know exactly what the FBI or other authorities are waiting for when it comes to issuing warrants and making arrests, but I assume they have more information than anyone in this thread about how things are unfolding, and do await them taking action eagerly. It's not on the schedule I might want, but then I'm not anyone who is in charge and I am not privy to the information they have about the situation.
posted by hippybear at 8:16 PM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh come on now. There are no sleeper cells waiting to be activated. There is no organized coup plot. There aren't even any "deep pockets" (that phrase is starting to sound hilarious here) funding these guys from the shadows (not saying there aren't rich interests who'd be happy to see some range war action). We're starting to sound like the Bundy gang in reverse.

I continue to favor rolling them up by all non-lethal means available and to be dismayed that it is taking so long. I continue to believe the kid gloves are because the protesters are white, not because they are armed or in the middle of nowhere or have kids with them or it might damage artifacts or buildings if the pipes burst. I continue to suspect cops (if not FBI) in the area are generally in sympathy with the protesters and constitute a real enemy within. I continue to suspect other cops (including FBI) who aren't sympathetic are just scared, not brilliant strategists.

I'd love to be wrong. Make sure to remind me how smart the cops are about not escalating protest movements the next time they lead an massively armed police assault on an unarmed urban protest. Because you know, deep down, that this is not how it's going to go down in Black Lives Matter occupies the Lincoln Memorial.
posted by spitbull at 4:55 AM on January 23, 2016 [8 favorites]

There are no sleeper cells waiting to be activated. There is no organized coup plot.

'Organized' might be too strong a word, but there's something going on out there:

One of the things I hated about working there was that some of the people I worked were deeply involved in the militia movement. The morning of the Oklahoma City bombing, they were making jokes about it two hours before it happened because they knew something big was going to happen that day.
posted by double block and bleed

posted by ryanrs at 5:12 AM on January 23, 2016

Or they just talk about that shit constantly as these idiots are prone to do.
posted by Artw at 7:28 AM on January 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't know what else to call the Idaho 3% groups and Oath Keeper militamen apparently just camped out around the county waiting for something to happen if not sleeper cells.

These people are terrorists. It's appropriate to use the same terminology.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 AM on January 23, 2016

Malheur Field Station director left after learning: 'You have an armed militia down the road
posted by Artw at 7:39 AM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have less than no love for these yokels, but terrorism is a term that gets thrown around too willy-nilly these days. It skeeves me out how so many people think excessive force is hunkydorky when happens to those other guys.

That said, isn't it interesting how the white guys with guns get a pass while the unarmed black folks get the hammer.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:07 AM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not in this case, no, but it is interesting that the fog caused by race issues is so thick that it overshadows the rest of the situation.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:14 AM on January 23, 2016

Does anyone know what Cleon Skousen's pocket Constitution says about Article 4, Section 3, Clause 2 - the property clause which gives Congress control of all territory and property? Clearly they're going by Skousen's writing, so I'm curious what mental gymnastics they performed to explain away the Federal government owning any land outside of the original thirteen colonies.

Also, does anyone know the disposition of Ammon Bundy's $550,000 loan from the Federal government for his business? Is he paying it back? He clearly had no trouble walking into a Federal office to get money, but I could see him not paying that back because he's convinced himself we owe him free money.
posted by bluecore at 8:32 AM on January 23, 2016

The racist Skousen Constitution pamphlet. I have looked for it (you can get a free one if you send a self addressed and stamped envelope to them) my understanding is he basically just added some misquotes and misattributions to prove the Constitution is a document from God. I listened to a bunch of him and more of his son, they are your basic libertarians who sounds reasonable for a while, then logic jumps aboard a rocket and heads straight into the Sun.

The militias / sovereign citizens use two claims to make their argument work first is the capitalized word Territory in the property clause;
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
(They fail to realize most nouns were capitalized) so they can then claim that the US has no capital letter Territories it has States so all land must be dispose(d) of over to State control.

Then they look at Article 1 section 8;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings
this lets them claim the federal government gets land of 10 square miles plus as many forts,magazines, arsenals, docks as they want but nothing else ... oh but post offices are okay too (as it is in the clause just before this one).

So to turn their logic around if the refuge was simply renamed Fort or Port Malheur ... they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Watching video of the meeting between Bundy and county Sheriffs yesterday was a bit more dire than I realized. Bundy basically declared the Sheriff to be in violation of the Constitution which means there is no authority or law beyond what Bundy is organizing. I caught the part where he called the FBI a standing army. These are all bad signs. They will begin trials and condemning people having exhausted all options in their mind. They are doing the work of god and upholding one of his holy documents ... the US Constitution.
posted by phoque at 9:35 AM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's really interesting phoque. I was very puzzled by the following remark of Finicum (for which, see here): "We have occupied their [the federal government's] fort, and we're not giving it back, it goes to Harney County. It does not go back to the federal government."

I wondered why he was calling the refuge a "fort," since it obviously isn't a fort. Maybe he thinks that all federal properties are forts by default? But then I have two questions. The first is this: If Finicum thinks that the refuge is a fort and he thinks that the federal government does have the right to build forts, then how does the refuge/fort become unconstitutional from his perspective? The second is a repeat of something I asked much earlier in the thread: Forget terrorism, how is this not straight up treason as defined by the Constitution itself? If Finicum says that the refuge is a fort and that they have occupied the government's fort, don't they count as a rebel army actively prosecuting a not-very-well-thought-out war?
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 9:59 AM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

Watching video of the meeting between Bundy and county Sheriffs yt yesterday was a bit more dire than I realized.

I assume that the intermittent blarts on the audio of that ridiculous conversation were one of the Maroon Patrol blowing into the shofar? That must get old pretty quickly...
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:40 AM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

John Sepulvado and Amanda Peacher, both from OPB, are currently doing a Q&A on Twitter. Not much new info but it seems like everybody has the same questions.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:53 AM on January 23, 2016

Jonathan Livengood, those are good questions. I have thoughts but no definite answers ... because their entire argument is a mess. I think it is more their desire to be warriors, they struck at the heart of the beast, in warrior speak, they took the castle, would be just as appropriate. They love the operational security theater stuff ... they are acting out a Hollywood version.

Your observation of the word use is something that had slipped my notice. My guess is that because they believe themselves to be the ultimate godly defenders of the Constitution, that having a fort would indeed put them in a position of being a lawful entity (which is important to them, as their defiance of law is done from the highest legal authority, God and the Constitution). I still wouldn't put a ton of weight on the usage though, as regurgitating Constitutional articles and words is standard practice, but it does tell you about the world their minds inhabit.


Moar shofar (youtube 11 min first 2 minutes and last 4 can be skipped) Bundy's semi press / FBI conference before going to Sheriff yesterday. He doesn't get a phone call, tells them they are unconstitutional and he is going to tell the Sheriff on them. Santilli feed so idiocy abounds.
posted by phoque at 10:56 AM on January 23, 2016

Trying to make sense of their legal theories is an exercise in futility, it's as if Micheal Scott taught Con Law. Only with machine guns.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:05 AM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

The "forts" clause seems to require an official action by the state offering it up to the feds.

So I think to be moon-legal, the state would have to break up Malheur into 10 sq. mi. plots or less, name them all forts, and officially cede them to the federal government. Then, US Congress would have to officially accept. Then, probably, they would have to actually "erect" a building of some sort on each 10 sq. mi. plot or be accused of moon-fraud, which would presumably revert the land back to the state.

In any case, I doubt humoring them would be a simple matter of writing a permission memo to the feds and signing it.
posted by ctmf at 11:16 AM on January 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

In any case, I doubt humoring them would be a simple matter of writing a permission memo to the feds and signing it.

It would also lend credence to their mumbo jumbo which doesn't need to and shouldn't happen in this case.
posted by Talez at 11:32 AM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

The 10 square miles (I believe) is only for the seat of government (Washington D.C), forts and what not can be any size they like. Also once the Sheriff (the highest legal / constitutional authority (higher than the President)) is replaced for being unconstitutional, they appoint or become the highest power so little things like the Congress and State assemblies are all unconstitutional and subordinate. It all flies off the rails fairly quickly.
posted by phoque at 11:34 AM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm curious-- where do they get the Sheriff=highest constitutional authority when the word sheriff doesn't appear in the Constitution?
posted by bluecore at 11:42 AM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just want to mention how much I love the phrase "moon-legal."
posted by msalt at 11:45 AM on January 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Cleon Skousen has a huge fan base. They are not sleeper cells, no.
Mitt Romney
Ben Carson
The Tea Party
Glen Beck
This is to name a few. The deep pockets are certainly around. This list is the tip of the national iceberg. Skousen seems to be the totem animal of the Montana Freemen. Skousen was an unabashed racist as well. I suppose Ben Carson imagines Skousen would have accepted him as worthy, because he is so cool. I don't doubt for a minute Utah's congressional delegation backs these militants. I have not read one word otherwise. Skousen taught at BYU, worked for the FBI, and was at one time a sherrif. He was mainstream in Utah in his day, falling out with the mainstream church, still authoring books with church offshoots. He also believes in that 4-5000 year old Earth.

So the Mahleur Militia, Skousen cartoon constitution in hand, represent a broad coalition of disaffected, white religio-politico believers, likely united in their miffed racism, and end of days fantasies. They are funded by coal, oil, mining, and military minded people who see their sun setting. The fighter types are dismayed by diplomacy, viewing it as weakness. They also don't like respectful, non chauvanist, back and forth with the ME except, the performance that generates oil profits, or relations with Israel. These guys are an ignition switch. More dedicated radicals are holding the klutz, Bundy, in place.
posted by Oyéah at 12:05 PM on January 23, 2016

I don't know enough to understand any clear basis, Wikipedia states;
In the United States, a sheriff is a county official and is typically the top law enforcement officer of a county. Historically, the sheriff was also commander of the militia in that county. Distinctive in law enforcement in the United States, sheriffs are usually elected.

From what I can tell the sheriff idea comes from a narrow / specific reading of the Federalist papers. But there may be some Supreme court decisions that hold the interpretation as well. Really they pick and chose what they can.

Also, I have no idea what to Capitalize or not anymore so please excuse all my randomness, I am trying.
posted by phoque at 12:11 PM on January 23, 2016

Just want to mention how much I love the phrase "moon-legal."

Moon law is pretty handy. It also covers a lot of gamer/MRA type stuff and internet defamation accusations. I think it would be a fun project to compile a moon civil and criminal code based on people's crazy assertions on the internet (see: r/legaladvice)

(and sometimes AskMe)
posted by ctmf at 12:22 PM on January 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2010/11/mike-lee-cleon-skousen-and-radical.html?m=1

Here is about Senator Mike Lee.
posted by Oyéah at 12:28 PM on January 23, 2016

... it's as if Micheal Scott taught Con Law.

Yes, you're clearly right. On the other hand, I would totally take that class.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 1:16 PM on January 23, 2016

Free to wreak havoc in Harney County
posted by Artw at 1:40 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trying to make sense of their legal theories is an exercise in futility, it's as if Micheal Scott taught Con Law. Only with machine guns.

The difficulty in understanding how crazy people think comes from the fact that they are crazy, and I am not.
posted by mikelieman at 1:55 PM on January 23, 2016

I like to think of it as a game of Calvinball where only they can make up rules.
posted by Talez at 2:18 PM on January 23, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here is a calm discussion The County Sheriff's Office Authority and Jurisdiction (half hour community tv program from Utah complete with ads) on how the authority is derived (some states have the position outlined in their constitution while others legislate the position and duties).

Also from the Twitter Q&A, John Sepulvado:
yes. a man from arkansas accused me of being @FBI & pulled his gun out of his waist band. Jon Ritz ordered him down
posted by phoque at 2:52 PM on January 23, 2016

But, you know, EXACTLY like Black Lives Matter.
posted by Artw at 3:51 PM on January 23, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well, surprise, surprise;
#bundymilitia rolls out natural law judge. Announces convenence of militia grand jury. Precedence over all courts.
posted by phoque at 4:34 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Have the FBI surrendered yet?
posted by Artw at 4:45 PM on January 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

Pretty sure they did a year and a half ago in Nevada.
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:28 PM on January 23, 2016 [3 favorites]

I hope the sheriff and all other officials are well -protected. Once the kangaroo court declares them guilty, it will be entirely in character for these idiots to try and apprehend them.

~ as an aside, at almost 1700 comments, this thread makes my poor iPad weep tears of pain. Typing this is a real ordeal.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:32 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pretty sure they did a year and a half ago in Nevada.

FBI came after the standoff. It was the ATF providing support services to the BLM.
posted by Talez at 5:33 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]

Counter-protest near Oregon wildlife refuge
posted by Artw at 6:02 PM on January 23, 2016

A new rule;
And the citizen grand jury is at work but reporters warned it is a felony to probe. I got a second warning.
posted by phoque at 6:29 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

does that mean he's on double secret probation?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:42 PM on January 23, 2016 [9 favorites]

‘I would support this to the death’: Raw Story goes inside OR occupation where militants say they’ll die for their cause

The mood started to curdle. “Mama Bear,” one of at least a half-dozen women present, repeatedly warned she didn’t want any reporting “to put us in danger.” She specifically asked us not to mention the barrel of flaming dildos.
posted by bluecore at 6:44 PM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]

About those dildos ... Questions For The Oregon Militiamen. (youtube 2min43sec comedy song).
posted by phoque at 6:50 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

"The problem is tyranny!"

uh, yeah, Bundy guys? If the problem was tyranny, you would so not still be there.
posted by Archelaus at 7:22 PM on January 23, 2016 [7 favorites]

So when I first heard about the Hammonds getting sentenced to 5 years for a grass fire, that did sound unduly harsh. But hearing more about the shit they pulled over the last 30 years, they had it coming.

Raw Story: Oregon ranchers who sparked standoff threatened to wrap official’s son in barbed wire and drown him

Journalist Arun Gupta talks to two retired employees of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service who dealt with the Hammonds in the 1980s and 90s. Since they are retired, they are not under the gag order that is preventing current employees from saying much.

If you have even the slightest bit of sympathy for the Hammonds, this article will probably cure it.
posted by ryanrs at 12:38 AM on January 24, 2016 [12 favorites]

I hope the sheriff and all other officials are well -protected. Once the kangaroo court declares them guilty, it will be entirely in character for these idiots to try and apprehend them.

Several Federal employees and their families have been threatened/stalked enough to evacuate the area.

So, probably not, no.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:45 AM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

"[The Hammonds] said they knew exactly which rooms my kids slept in."

Five years in jail is not long enough.
posted by JackFlash at 8:44 AM on January 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Hamonds were real shitheads. But they did some time for that and now must do some more. They have complied with the courts and sought to work with the BLM on how they might resolve other issues regarding cattle grazing. They are more honorable than the Bundy's in that sense.
posted by humanfont at 10:34 AM on January 24, 2016

When asked who the opposition was, he said, “Tyranny.” Specifically, he explained, it was “The Rockefellers, Chases, Rothschilds, people who own the media companies, defense contractors.”

Oh, so this is a really a misunderstood component of the Sanders campaign.

Re: the barrel of flaming dicks: I know that upstream that I said I approved of only dick related shipments, but that was fairly tongue-in-cheek. As I saw the first video of their "care packages" being opened, I hadn't considered the potential scale of this, forgetting that this is "the internet" and nothing like this ever happens on a small scale. I'd been thinking more and more about what an ultimately bad idea sending them things like that is when I read about the 55 gallon barrel of lube. That one just kind of pissed me off - because someone is willing to spend over a grand and cause 55 gallons of lube to be spilled in a wildlife refuge so that they can have the best twitter joke. I'm still hoping that one didn't actually happen.

It should be clear that there's no way those guys aren't going to just dump all of this somewhere. I'm not sure what people expected to happen, it's not like they were going to neatly stack them up in a corner of the room labeled "DICKS AND LUBE," or like there's regular junk collection or dildo recycling there, and I can't imagine that combusting latex does much for the welfare of the wildlife in the area.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:28 AM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

That one just kind of pissed me off - because someone is willing to spend over a grand and cause 55 gallons of lube to be spilled in a wildlife refuge so that they can have the best twitter joke.

On the plus side, it's Passions natural water-based lube, which means it's water-based, paraben-free, glycerin-free and probably a lot less damaging to the environment than almost everything else they are doing.

And also they are realistically hanging onto it. Just in case.
posted by running order squabble fest at 11:39 AM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also...

When asked who the opposition was, he said, “Tyranny.” Specifically, he explained, it was “The Rockefellers, Chases, Rothschilds, people who own the media companies, defense contractors.”

So... the Jews again?

(The Rockefeller Conspiracy generally either says that the Rockefellers are secretly Jewish, or that they are collaborating with the Rothschilds. I assume that "Chase" here means the bank - i.e. the Rockefellers again - rather than Salmon Portland Chase. Although since Salmon Portland Chase advocated for Federal authority and for the abolition of slavery, I guess they might mean him?)
posted by running order squabble fest at 12:01 PM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I guess once you start beleiveing one fakey mash-up document is actually historical and real it's easy to beleive the same of certain others...
posted by Artw at 12:57 PM on January 24, 2016

Re: the dick deliveries. They could raise some money by reselling them on eBay or wherever. Play up the Malheur/Bundy provenance to justify a markup.

When life hands you lemons, etc.
posted by notyou at 1:39 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

LOT OF USED RUBBER AND LATEX COCKS - PROCEEDS BENEFIT AMERICA AND FREEDOM - NO RETURNS
posted by MysticMCJ at 1:48 PM on January 24, 2016 [6 favorites]

Okay ... so ... I didn't see this coming;
Kelly Gneiting challenges Governor Chris Christie to sumo wrestle for an end to the Oregon Occupation.

This appears to be real as Gneiting is a member of the Independent American Party. He has run marathons and holds a world record for heaviest marathoner. He wrote a book called The Book of Mormon's Art of War (he gave a copy to the Bundy's) and wrote a couple articles about government at a site called the Mormon Chronicle. His ideas mirror those of Bundy. And the sign that showed up that read; Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God, is his doing.

On a more serious note, I hope Idaho has some plan, because similar ideologues have scheduled an event under the banner of Western Rangelands Property Rights Workshop (scroll to bottom to see sponsorship). The guys holding the 'workshop', blog at a website called the Pahvant Post, their take on the standoff;
The Oregon Standoff in a Nutshell — From My Perspective — by Todd Macfarlane
it is long, but safe to say they have their own version of events.

This article is pretty good at laying out the crazy notions in order, however, I can't find the original letter / article from which it is supposedly derived, so don't know if Mrs.Hammond was really involved. Mrs. Hammond Writes “The Oregonian” About U.S. Superior Court Judge Who Arrived To Restore Constitutional Order

This is a good rundown / point based refutation of the fringe legal notions. It was written about the Cliven Bundy affair but I found it relevant to current events;
Ownership of Federal Land: Answers Suggested by the Bundy Standoff

Heavily link laden medium article part two (I think part one was linked here before);
What Harney County and the Malheur occupation mean (to us) by Daniel Barton (Assistant Professor of Wildlife Biology at Humboldt State University). But this picture of a pile of birds is incredible.
posted by phoque at 1:52 PM on January 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

But this picture of a pile of bison skulls is incredible.
posted by sneebler at 2:00 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, definitely one of the more impressive skull piles I've seen.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:04 PM on January 24, 2016

Re: the dick deliveries. They could raise some money by reselling them on eBay or wherever. Play up the Malheur/Bundy provenance to justify a markup.

Yup: That's exactly what they were doing. There was a Santilli video (some hotel room with paneling) where they signed them in Sharpie and were trying to sell them off.
posted by mochapickle at 2:10 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

But this picture of a pile of bison skulls is incredible.

Yes, that makes much more sense ;)
posted by phoque at 2:11 PM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

My brain just exploded. ( I know, never read their bullshit.... ) They want the US Government to hand over the land to private parties, but then go on with "The BLM is a private corporation...", so...

"Mission Accomplished"? Y'all can pack up and go home now...
posted by mikelieman at 2:29 PM on January 24, 2016

A nice run down of Bundy demands versus real world feasibility.
Demands by Oregon standoff leaders defy logic and law, authorities say by Les Zaitz of The Oregonian/OregonLive.
LUMBER MILLS
The occupation leaders recently expanded their economic agenda, saying they would help Harney County's 7,000 residents harvest more timber and process more wood. They would see that lumber mills reopen, Bundy asserted.

But there's one big problem involving the hulking mill buildings that sit on the edge of Hines, which adjoins Burns.

"There's nothing out there where we can re-oil machinery, turn on the lights and start operations," said Randy Fulton, the county's business development coordinator. "All the sawmill equipment was taken out years ago."
posted by phoque at 2:34 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

Looking for logical consistency with these guys will lead to nowhere. There is absolutely nothing to be gained with engaging them on rational terms or looking to appeal to logic - which is precisely why I fear that any official negotiations will go nowhere, and that this can only end in one form of tragedy or another at this point.

I want to be proven wrong.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:36 PM on January 24, 2016

Could we, say, set some kind of parameter beyond which we could in consensus admit that the FBI's current strategy is not working, and some other option is then called for? Say, if a year later we're still in the same situation? Or if the group at Malheur grows to a hundred people? Or a thousand? There has to be some outcome, short of them shooting someone, that would justifiably trigger a law enforcement reaction. They're never going to shoot anyone - no one is challenging them on anything.
posted by newdaddy at 2:53 PM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

The larger the group grows, the more difficult it will be to have any sort of peaceful response that ends well. The longer they remain there, the more invested they are in an outcome on their terms.

I will admit that we don't know the current law enforcement strategy. I just do not see how any strategy at this point ends well - aside from that stopping shipments could contribute to a gradual decline in the number of occupiers. While the best time to do that was well before they started getting shipments, it's never too late to take that option.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:59 PM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

Any sighting of David Fry (the pro-ISIS/Hitler/quails guy doing IT at the refuge) recently? It looks like defendyourbase.net has been down for at least a day, and I haven't seen any mention of him in a bit. I'm dying to know how his parents reacted when they got back from their Costa Rica vacation.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:04 PM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

He just uploaded a video! He's out playing with a very cute little ground squirrel.
posted by mochapickle at 3:26 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

If only there were a team of expert naturalists on site to tell him whether it was a squirrel or a miniature groundhog...
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:30 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

I believe it may be a water vole.
posted by phoque at 3:34 PM on January 24, 2016 [1 favorite]

I believe it may be a water vole.

WE'VE BEEN INFILTRATED!
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:34 PM on January 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

That whole channel... He has videos of riding a truck through muddy paths, going for snacks (with coyotes howling in the background), getting breakfast, reading books (well, thumbing through looking for pictures; declares W.E.B. DuBois' writings as racist and wtf), chasing local birds.

It's like summer camp.
posted by mochapickle at 3:41 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

The larger the group grows, the more difficult it will be to have any sort of peaceful response that ends well.

That's my feeling about this. Bravery in numbers, and all that. The entire feeling of this has definitely changed over this weekend. There far more confidence in the militants' attitude. Their words seem to express a feeling that they are in control and mere hours/days from achieving their goals.

They're delusional, of course, but there definitely seems to be an air of assurance and confidence from them that wasn't there a week ago.

Any word on how the citizen grand jury is going? Have they ordered the guillotines built yet?
posted by Thorzdad at 4:01 PM on January 24, 2016

He just uploaded a video! He's out playing with a very cute little ground squirrel.\

Am I a bad woman for wanting the ground squirrel to have suddenly turned feral when he said "Hello Buddy!" , show some fangs, snarl and then pounce on him along with about ten dozen other ground squirrels?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:01 PM on January 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

Any word on how the citizen grand jury is going? Have they ordered the guillotines built yet?

They have but they weren't eligible for Prime shipping.
posted by Talez at 4:09 PM on January 24, 2016 [7 favorites]

Any word on how the citizen grand jury is going?

Careful now, that could be a felony probing.
posted by phoque at 4:12 PM on January 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh that reminds me - the new X Files is on tonight !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:15 PM on January 24, 2016 [8 favorites]

Ending the Black Helicopter program was the worst move the Feds ever made.
posted by Artw at 4:18 PM on January 24, 2016 [11 favorites]

The larger the group grows, the more difficult it will be to have any sort of peaceful response that ends well.

On the plus side, there's a finite number of people the refuge can house-- only so much floor space, only so many mattresses, and the septic system can only take so much before it's overtaxed. Also, 20/30/40 people eat a ton of food each day. Getting the food out there (Burns is 30 miles away, apparently), cooking it, feeding everyone, doing all the dishes, then turning it around and doing it two more times a day-- that's a lot of hassle. That's all with power, of course. I'm assuming they don't have natural gas out there, so when the power gets cut off they'll be cooking on hot plates with generators. My point is that if it's a waiting game, the Federal government has the resources to sit there like an immovable boulder and wait them out while they get cabin fever and want to return to their mattress at home.
posted by bluecore at 4:42 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

My point is that if it's a waiting game, the Federal government has the resources to sit there like an immovable boulder and wait them out while they get cabin fever and want to return to their mattress at home.

The fact that the Feds are are accommodating their restaurant runs and is still supplying them with resources that I am paying for makes me think they're not taking this seriously. (He said, while sheltering in place and waiting for local government to just plow the damn roads.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:53 PM on January 24, 2016 [5 favorites]

Careful now, that could be a felony probing.

What I thought when I heard about "probing" being a "felony".
posted by Talez at 5:06 PM on January 24, 2016

The blizzard bound Feds in the DC suburbs will be cranky from being housebound upon their return to work Tuesday. I assume this will result in a more agressive response.
posted by humanfont at 7:11 PM on January 24, 2016

By now the people of Harney County have Stockholm Syndrome, from the hostage situation they have been in for nearly one month. They need refusal of service signs. They need the national guard out at the Burns town entrance, denying terrorists entrance to the town, or entrance to any county building.

Listening to terrorists has to end. Giving terrorists any credence has to end. Their understanding of life and law is muddled at best. They can catch up on issues of constitutional law in prison. Bottom line terrorists are depriving the citizens of Burns and Harney County, of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
posted by Oyéah at 9:35 PM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

This standoff is exposing cracks within liberalism.

The militants are correct that they stand for the original American politics. They believe in the original Constitution -- a document that reifies white supremacy, African slavery, and genocide, as well as the rule of a land owning rural aristocracy.

They have support within the security services -- not a lot, but enough to give pause to the feds going in with guns blazing on the refuge. Sure, FBI HRT can take down the ranchers. But it will be bloody, and the fear is that it will spawn a thousand Oklahoma City Bombings. Remember, that Tim McVeigh was a decorated US Army combat veteran, before he was a terrorist.

The classic liberal response to all of this, and what I'm seeing upthread in large amounts, is that the federal government should put the hammer down on the Oregon militants. Open carry is legal in Oregon, and though the guns are jarring, walking around with a loaded gun is legal. Taking over the refuge is illegal for sure -- but it is within the same category as occupying a federal building plaza in downtown Portland. So in essence, what liberals are asking for is that the Oregon militants be hammered hard, while some group of, say, anti-police violence protesters in a federal building in Portland should, presumably, be removed with a lighter touch.

But back to the security services sympathizers -- this is a real problem for public order no doubt. So how to deal with them? The tactical solution is more loyalty checks, stronger surveillance of political activity and crackdowns on organizers. The problem is that asking for that is asking to strengthen the coercive state that so many liberals oppose -- I see folks here on MeFi regularly chastising the prison industrial system, wiretapping, and so on.

You can bet that a crackdown on political dissidents within the security services would sweep up plenty of people with whom MeFi readers might have sympathy --people like a future Chelsea Manning. This is not to mention how much such a sweep would probably hit wider political activity.

So here we see the cracks within liberal politics -- the great desire to ask the state to inflict violence against political dissent that one dislikes, conflicting with the very legitimate fear of increasing the already powerful surveillance and security state.
posted by wuwei at 11:12 PM on January 24, 2016 [2 favorites]

The militants are correct that they stand for the original American politics. They believe in the original Constitution -- a document that reifies white supremacy, African slavery, and genocide, as well as the rule of a land owning rural aristocracy.

Have you actually looked at the tenets of the Sovereign Citizens movement? Because you might want to do that before you assert that what they believe in is “the original Constitution”.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:18 PM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]

Of course I have. Do you disagree that the Constitution, as drafted, reifies white supremacy, African slavery, and genocide?
posted by wuwei at 11:27 PM on January 24, 2016

Taking over the refuge is illegal for sure -- but it is within the same category as occupying a federal building plaza in downtown Portland.

Yadda yadda.

There's a category difference between a sit-in and a sit-in with guns. A sit-in is a sort of ritualized kabuki, where the occupiers, media, populace, and cops all know their roles. Whereas with this bullshit, we don't know that the occupiers aren't going to do something stupid.

The tactical solution is

As far as I can tell from online shopping, 'tactical' means ballistic nylon and performative masculinity.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:41 PM on January 24, 2016 [18 favorites]

Wuwei - I firmly disagree that their particular interpretation of "the Original Constitution" has anything to do with the actual document. I think getting hung up on the particular topics you've chosen is... not a very productive line of approach. The problem at hand is less "the fundamentals of their beliefs" and more "the armed occupation bit."
posted by Archelaus at 11:49 PM on January 24, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Maybe they should at least stop the mail from being delivered and ideally not just let them come and go as they please" is not "burn the fucking building down and shoot anyone trying to escape." And "plowing over sensitive environmental and archaeological areas to build a road, waving guns around threatening to kill people, and intentionally destroying priceless native artifacts" is not "sitting in a lobby chanting slogans."
posted by dirigibleman at 12:04 AM on January 25, 2016 [16 favorites]

What you can do with a gun and copy of the Constitution
posted by phoque at 12:08 AM on January 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

They believe in the original Constitution ...

Nah. They believe in some very selective parts of the Constitution, and they systematically misread the parts that they like. As has been pointed out, they ignore the parts that give the federal government authority to do the sorts of things that it does with respect to land management, grazing fees, and so forth. And insofar as they hold on to white-supremacy, they are ignoring the parts of the original Constitution that lay out how the document is to be changed and then they ignore the parts of the current Constitution that resulted from changing the original document.

The classic liberal response to all of this, and what I'm seeing upthread in large amounts, is that the federal government should put the hammer down on the Oregon militants. Open carry is legal in Oregon, and though the guns are jarring, walking around with a loaded gun is legal. Taking over the refuge is illegal for sure -- but it is within the same category as occupying a federal building plaza in downtown Portland. So in essence, what liberals are asking for is that the Oregon militants be hammered hard, while some group of, say, anti-police violence protesters in a federal building in Portland should, presumably, be removed with a lighter touch.

No. Not at all. In the first place, only some people upthread are suggesting that the federal government "put the hammer down." Many are suggesting that the federal government do lots of things that (to me at least) fall far short of putting the hammer down, e.g. issuing warrants for arrest, asking the [protesters / militants / terrorists / insurgents / traitors] to turn themselves in, blocking access to the site and refusing to let those who leave come back, cutting off power and communications, arresting individuals (especially leaders) when they are away from the refuge, etc., etc.

In the second place, even in Oregon, breaking the law while armed with a deadly weapon often increases the severity of a crime. Take the robbery statutes, for example. If you take something by force, that's robbery in the third degree. If you also say you have a deadly weapon, that's robbery in the second degree. If you really have a deadly weapon, that's robbery in the first degree. It is quite reasonable to think that there is a qualitative difference between protest-by-occupation and protest-by-armed-occupation, with exactly one of those being broadly acceptable in a democratic society. And even in the broadly acceptable versions of protest-by-occupation, most people think that the occupiers are properly punished when they break the laws. Another thing that makes this occupation different is that the occupiers have threatened to use deadly force if anyone tries to enforce the laws. It seems to me that legitimate protest-by-occupation may only use passive resistance, not threats of violence. Finally, in any protest-by-occupation, I advocate using a light touch to remove the occupiers. But owing to the threat of force in this case, a light touch is probably not possible. (We don't know for sure because no one has been brave or stupid enough to try it.)

In the third place, the stated aims and beliefs of occupiers really need to be taken into consideration. If some of my friends and I occupy a building in order to protest police violence, and we say things like, "Police need to be held accountable," and "Police need to be more respectful of the people they serve," and "Police need to stop profiling," we are advocating rather small changes to the political system within which we live. But if we say, "Police are an illegitimate tyranny," and "The police state has to be overthrown," and "The police are guilty of crimes according to our moon-laws," then we are not advocating small changes to the political system, we are trying to undermine and/or replace the existing political system. Now, the difference here is sometimes subtle, but I think that in many cases, it is actually pretty clear. And it marks the difference between a protest and an insurrection. The current case strikes me as borderline enough to be difficult to judge. But I don't think it's incredible to say that the occupiers here have crossed over from legitimate (though illegal) protest to insurrection. And I think this element of the current event ought to be given serious consideration in deciding what sort of response is called for from the federal government. (Since it is a borderline case, I still advocate a soft touch. But I could easily see an escalation -- e.g. the occupiers start taking over community buildings, like courthouses and police stations, and they start prosecuting and sentencing people under their own invented laws -- that would require a more robust response.)

On preview: What sebastianbailard and dirigibleman said.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 12:43 AM on January 25, 2016 [26 favorites]

Under Oregon law taking a firearm into a public building is a class C felony. They can carry their guns in public, but the moment they took them Ito the refuge HQ they committed a felony under Oregon law. Also threatening to shoot people with your gun violates open carry laws pretty much everywhere.
posted by humanfont at 1:09 AM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

So in essence, what liberals are asking for is that the Oregon militants be hammered hard, while some group of, say, anti-police violence protesters in a federal building in Portland should, presumably, be removed with a lighter touch.

Well, obviously yes. This is why we have gun enhancement laws that sharply increases penalties when a crime is committed with a firearm.
posted by ryanrs at 1:40 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

>This standoff is exposing cracks within liberalism.

This is where I usually stop reading but I am a masochist at heart and continued.
This is not exposing cracks in any alliance as much as it is exposing crackpots. I like to think that appropriate government agencies are using this little crap-show to gather major intel about domestic terrorist groups. At some point - real soon now - the intel value will not surpass the increasingly major disruption to the surrounding community and the Feds will put all the little toy soldiers safely away in Prison for a great many years.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:37 AM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Constitutional Sheriff of the Year" [OregonLive]
posted by newdaddy at 6:54 AM on January 25, 2016

the great desire to ask the state to inflict violence against political dissent that one dislikes

Anyone who is doing so is by definition not expressing any form of liberalism, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

Asking for a balanced response at all - which is what I see quite a bit of here - is hardly doing this, unless you are considering cutting the power to the refuge a form of state violence.

I'm not sure why you are associating a violent response with liberalism. Asking for the state to "put the hammer down" is most definitely not anything associated with a liberal political philosophy, and saying that it is such does not make it so. That some people have expressed a desire for that to happen does not demonstrate "cracks" in liberalism by any means.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:36 AM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Wait a minute, I need a definition of liberal.

Right now the US has soldiers abroad to protect innocent civilians from tyranny. (I have to finish laughing here, so I can continue typing.) The Taliban operate like the militants at the refuge. The women are hidden inside, lots of mandeur on the ground. Manly meetings among manly men, instead of waving around the Qur'an, these guys are waving around a cartoon version of the constitution.

The Taliban are sons of abuse, raped from boyhood by their Uncles and Imams. They are largely illiterate, except for their ability to read minimally their religious text, and argued by most Muslins, unable to correctly interpret it.

This is where the militants at the Mahleur are the same. They hope to be heroes, martyrs, revered as wise leaders, but a lot of Americans know their Constitution and their constitutional rights. For instance, teachers in Arizona have to pass a constitutional law class. It is not rocket science nor is it a class in magic.

I guess these fundie constitutionalists want to strip the amendments from the document, gee, that includes citizenship for people of color, and women's voting rights. I am so excited for their brave new frontier, run by gun waving high school dropouts, lots of dishes, laundry, cookin', and perfunctory sex. Then arranged marriages, girls out school at 11 years old prepped for marriage. Cedar hope chests for all girls.

Just so you know that eighteenth century mindset is back in real time at the Mahleur.
posted by Oyéah at 8:57 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

That is actually a really good point about modern protest being essentially ritualized kabuki. From my years as a protest organizer on the left, one of the common critiques we struggled with was how, over the years, cops have become accustomed to this kind of polite 60s-imitative protest- in part because we make it easy for them. We generally get permits for assembly and sound at least a week in advance, giving police plenty of time to prepare. We have protest marshals wearing armbands and policing ourselves so as not to provide any excuse for a crackdown. We have leadership hierarchies and police liaisons. Even civil disobedience has the air of a well rehearsed dance. People put their hands up for the cuffs, or go limp. Nobody struggles, because resisting arrest is a decently serious charge. And all this doesn't shake up either cops or government. They know how to handle that.

Unsurprisingly, both on the left and the right, some individuals have realized that the kabuki is ineffective at accomplishing their goals, and they are looking for other options. The innovators on the left are seeking new inspiration, and are abandoning the permit process, the docility. They are struggling with police and forcing them to show the implied violence that has always lurked behind those badges. They are blocking off highways instead of easily circumventable side streets. The innovators on the right are beginning to use open carry to come armed. They are exploiting our overwhelmed justice system with the slowdown tactics of flurries of small filings. And some, as we see here, are attempting to fully force the threat of death that the government ultimately employs as a way to enforce its dictates.

I think what we are ultimately seeing is a world that is coming to reject the mass nonviolent protest, and these sorts of situations are the tip of the spear as both sides figure out what they are going to do in the future.
posted by corb at 9:06 AM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

And after thinking about it, I want to reverse my previous assessment of how likely this was to catch on as a result of FBI inaction. While these tactics are fragmenting the current occupiers, the reluctance to even cut the power is, in my current view, more likely to cause others to think, "That's a great plan, we just need to not be assholes about it."
posted by corb at 9:19 AM on January 25, 2016

So in essence, what liberals are asking for is that the Oregon militants be hammered hard, while some group of, say, anti-police violence protesters in a federal building in Portland should, presumably, be removed with a lighter touch.

Without weaponry, it is a legitimate protest and therefore, yes, be dealt with a light touch. With weaponry, it's terrorism or insurrection, take your pick, and needs to be dealt with more stringently. NB: that does not mean with violence.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:41 AM on January 25, 2016

I can't even with this left/right false-equivalency BS. Protests that turn violent when police start gassing people have nothing to do with protests that begin with the threat of violence when armed insurrectionists take over a federal facility.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:47 AM on January 25, 2016 [19 favorites]

At this point they truly seem to have turned a corner, with setting up their own court / justice system. Is there any parallel to this at any time in US history? Even the seceding states during the Civil War were using actual state government actions to try to withdraw from the Union. This action feels oddly new and dangerous to me.
posted by hippybear at 9:51 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is there any parallel to this at any time in US history?

Yes. And these guys are doing it this way on purpose, to try and recreate the conditions of the American Revolution to recreate the outcome. That's why they have the clothing, the references to the "three percent," why they call themselves a committee of safety, etc.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:57 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

corb -- I don't think that the world "is coming to reject the mass nonviolent protest."

What makes it kabuki is that it's not a mass movement at all, but seems to be the product a small group of perennial activists who just like the process of sitins, etc. or the publicity that they bring, more than being concerned about any particular issue.

Civil disobedience presupposes a widely acknowledged wrong that is either kept out of sight, or suppressed by a large oppressive security apparatus, official or otherwise. It gambles that the disruption and arrests will pull people's gaze onto something that shocks them so badly they are compelled to act, like police dogs and hoses being trained on unarmed women and children marching.

When all they see is the same small group of professional activists blocking their evening commute while yelling about some new, obscure issue, it just annoys them and tends to cause a backlash.
posted by msalt at 10:24 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wait hold on corb, nonviolent protests don't work?

please reacquaint yourself with the ENTIRE HISTORY of the civil rights movement in the USA.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:28 AM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wish I could cast a summoning spell to resurrect the multiple veterans of the American Revolution (even the 1 - 3 on the losing side)in my family tree to arise from the grave and go have a chat with these people. I honestly don't know if it's my simple background in history or my own familial connection to the spirit of the era they obscenely claim to be the sacred guardians of, but either way, it really irritates the heck out of me. I want to take a loudspeaker and simply yell at them, "Where does DAR figure into all of this?!"
posted by Atreides at 10:30 AM on January 25, 2016

Of course I have. Do you disagree that the Constitution, as drafted, reifies white supremacy, African slavery, and genocide?

Well, white supremacy and slavery, certainly. But the issue, as other folks have said, is less with what you are construing as being in the original constitution and more with your attempting to simplify the beliefs of sovereigns as wanting to go back to said original Constitution. That’s a stance that does a gross disservice to the political sophistication of the founding fathers, and that ignores the many features of the constitution that go against what the sovereigns believe. It’s one thing to honestly acknowledge our past. It’s another to willfully misconstrue it to find the most negative interpretation possible.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:44 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Without weaponry, it is a legitimate protest and therefore, yes, be dealt with a light touch. With weaponry, it's terrorism or insurrection, take your pick, and needs to be dealt with more stringently.

Not in the US, but I am sure there are many countries for which this statement would be absolutely correct.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:01 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait hold on corb, nonviolent protests don't work?
please reacquaint yourself with the ENTIRE HISTORY of the civil rights movement in the USA

I don't want to get caught up in an argument about which activist tactics are the most effective. What I am saying is that there are beginning to be real, serious critiques of the typical nonviolent marches as a tactic, and I think we are seeing the ultimate effect of those critiques resulting in more broadening of the diversity of tactics.

From the left, we have Peter Gederloos, in "How Nonviolence Protects The State", who notes,

Faced with the total repression of the white supremacist system, the obvious uselessness of the political process, and the shameless efforts of a dissident elite to exploit and control the rage of the oppressed, it should be no surprise or controversy at all that “the colonized man finds his freedom in and through violence,” to use the words of Frantz Fanon, the doctor from Martinique who authored one of the most important works on the struggle against colonialism.[74] Most white people have enough privilege and latitude that we may mistake these generously long, velvet-padded chains for freedom, so we comfortably agitate within the parameters of democratic society (the borders of which are composed of violently enforced racial, economic, sexual, and governmental structures).

From the right, we have Rothbard and the Mises Institute, who argue

At the heart of the Voluntaryist strategy is an unquestionably correct syllogism: If the mass of the people were, at one blow, to withhold their obedience from the State, refuse to pay taxes, stop circulating the State’s paper money, or refuse to obey unjust laws, then the State would be brought down. The major problem, of course, is the likelihood of the If.

I think it's unquestionable that we have a lot of populist anger currently going on in this country that doesn't fall along partisan lines - just look at the fact that Trump and Sanders are respectively leading in the polls, both on very different populist messages, but they are trouncing the opponents who are talking business as usual. The people are fed up with the same old tactics which have not achieved them their goals, and they are ready to try new ones. And that causes things like this - one of the fruits of this splintering and dissatisfaction with the status quo.
posted by corb at 11:08 AM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'll bet you a pizza not one of the Bundy Bunch has ever read any "real, serious critiques of the typical nonviolent marches as a tactic". Let's be honest - this group is entrenched in gun use and the culture of violent retribution fantasies that surrounds it. They're stacking the deck such the only possible outcome is a lot of shooting.
posted by newdaddy at 11:23 AM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

Just because you haven’t read a critique of nonviolent protest doesn’t mean you can’t perceive it as ineffective. That said, I would imagine these guys are much more aware of events like Ruby Ridge and Waco - situations where the feds well and truly brought their military power to bear, and so that’s how they are considering the response.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:26 AM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Meet The Women Of The Occupied Refuge

..."For the women, that hard stand comes by way of peeling potatoes and sorting laundry." ...
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:27 AM on January 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

And these guys are doing it this way on purpose, to try and recreate the conditions of the American Revolution to recreate the outcome.

So, they're going to convince France to come to the rescue and save their asses from inglorious defeat?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:28 AM on January 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

Guns and ships!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:31 AM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

From AGameofMoans' link: “But I’m a nobody,” she said. She said she will stay at the refuge as a cook, “for as long as it takes. We women, we are helpers,” said Bass. “That’s how we are created, and that’s what we do here.”

This surprises me not at all, that the women are (mostly willingly, so far as I can tell) entirely relegated to the domestic realm. That said, it looks like they're the backbone of this occupation: without their labor, sorting & obtaining supplies, cooking meals, and providing the supportive infrastructure, the whole place would probably go Lord of the Flies pretty quickly.

I don't understand why anyone would perceive this project as a religious mission, though. That doesn't make any sense to me.
posted by suelac at 12:21 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't understand why anyone would perceive this project as a religious mission, though. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Much much earlier in this thread there were links and examples of the occupiers using explicitly Mormon names and language in social media and as personae. They were quite deliberate about crossing the stream of Mormonism with this supposedly political protest. They may have not continued to do so, but they were doing it at the beginning.
posted by hippybear at 12:26 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Much much earlier in this thread there were links and examples of the occupiers using explicitly Mormon names and language in social media and as personae.

Hmm, yes, but the woman interviewed in the article is a Christian missionary from Tennessee. So I just... don't get it.

Ah, well. My failure of imagination, I guess. I'm pretty committed to the separation of church & state, and I've never been comfortable with any politics that smacks of theocracy.
posted by suelac at 12:34 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't understand why anyone would perceive this project as a religious mission, though. That doesn't make

The Constitution as word of God, a divine document, that is religious. The evangelical Christian woman blew right out of there after being informed about her role as a religious organizer. Her role would not be welcomed by the priesthood members.
posted by Oyéah at 12:42 PM on January 25, 2016

I have restrained myself from posting much on this page for the last week or so thinking perhaps that the US authorities might have got a grip on the reality of what is happening but now I see that is not really going to occur.
Excuse me if I offend some people.
I am now indulging myself in hapless laughter at that cluster fuck of a nation which wants to tell everybody else in the world what to do and how to do it and keep them in order to its own rules. Often ignoring and riding roughshod over local mores and traditions and treating all the occupents of said countries as second class citizens and yet can't even clean up it's own back yard.
People here go to great lengths to explain what these buffoons on the Wildlife Refuge believe in and the history of all that crazy thought mixed with fundamentalist ole time religion. It has already been mentioned at the beginning of this thread that if the miscreants were black they would have been carcasses within the first 5 days if not sooner.
Does America not have a process of law?. Rhetorical question. It seems to be only for those who are white or have monied interests behind them.
Why are no politicians or leaders demanding for the nonsense to stop?.
There's a lot of hand waving going on. Either there is rule of Law or there isn't. These people are not waving pointed sticks. Isn't that why the US police is armed? The National guard armed? or is it only for shooting Blacks and students?
I always thought the US was a highly hypocritical society and I am afraid that this just goes further to proove it.
posted by adamvasco at 1:34 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

There's a growing effort to combat arguments today about the mixing of church and state to establish that the two had something of a cozy relationship back in the day of the Founding Fathers. There's a youtube video you can watch where some evangelical pastor takes folks on a tour of the U.S. Capitol providing a 'religious' history lecture about how religious our Founding Fathers were, such as using the Capitol as a church on Sundays. Also, to help bolster the idea that the United States is beyond a doubt a Christian Nation, it's foundation can be pointed directly to God because it was his inspired word or what not which resulted in the drafting of our national documents, i.e., Constitution and Declaration, etc.
posted by Atreides at 1:34 PM on January 25, 2016

Excuse me if I offend some people. I am now indulging myself in hapless laughter at that cluster fuck of a nation which wants to tell everybody else in the world what to do and how to do it and keep them in order to its own rules.

Don't be a jerk. Some of us who are actually here aren't laughing and are, instead, scared shitless.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:55 PM on January 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

How do people claiming that the United States is a Christian nation / the Constitution is a religious document explain things like the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli?*
Wherein Founding Father and Second President of the United States John Fucking Adams says, quote:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion

(and for a bonus goes on to say that the US has no problem with Islam!)


*I know, they don't, because they have no awareness of the history of this country, or even mere awareness of reality.
posted by namewithoutwords at 1:57 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Re: adamvasco: that's nice. Enjoy your shadenfreude.

Please also enjoy it quietly. Too many of my neighbors think these guys are the best thing since sliced bread, and I can't afford to move to someplace less gun-crazy.
posted by Archelaus at 1:58 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

There's a lot of hand waving going on. Either there is rule of Law or there isn't. These people are not waving pointed sticks. Isn't that why the US police is armed? The National guard armed? or is it only for shooting Blacks and students?

Also, there's a lot of room for shitty, difficult situations between there being rule of law and not. This situation weakens the rule of law but as mad as I am, nobody has been killed or taken hostage and the rule of law is still a thing outside of this isolated corner of my home state. They're huge bullies and criminals for other reasons, but just having guns, even as a provocation, isn't a crime in this country [for white people], and the rule of law isn't gone. Of course, the more it escalates the more worried I get...
posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:59 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Moon law seems to be spreading.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:26 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

How do people claiming that the United States is a Christian nation / the Constitution is a religious document explain things like the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli?*

Trust me, the smarter ones know this and have a bucket full of strawman and other weak arguments to combat it. John Adams was a godless heathen/pagan/pretty sure Dolly was really just a cow in make up worshiping the devil in the pale moonlight....
posted by Atreides at 2:54 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was thinking about where modern day allegiances may have lain during the origins glory. My muddled speculation go like this;

When the Constitution was being developed there were people who thought that a federal government was an affront to free men (just how it goes, money and power interests conflict). One of the reasons the founders wrote the enclave and property clauses the way they did, was because, when they were discussing matters in Philadelphia, the building the Continental Congress was convened in, it got taken over and put under armed blockade. The besieged requested aid from the State (that they call the Militia to restore order) but the request was refused. So (the revered founders were forced to negotiated or beg and conjole their way out, high tail away, cursing as they rode (in my imagination anyway)) but they also learned they needed land and enforceable jurisdiction over it, in order to conduct business and debate without a gun to their head. While the simple story is about owed wages (certainly a motivating factor), history isn't quite so black and white and there was also an anti-federalist festering that allowed armed challenge to the entire notion of divesting any powers to a federal authority. So, I see the Bundy's as mirrors of the opponents of establishing a central power ... their fluffy unicorn history of a pristinely worded document they would pour their mind into doesn't square with their ... mind outpourings.


This little write up by OPB, I hope, suggests it may just be a paper war. It isn't certain they won't go further as they are balancing in dangerous territory. But even just issuing indictments could lead to escalation they can't control.
Armed Occupiers Convene Common Law Grand Jury Against Local Officials
Grand juries held under U.S. law also meet in secret. But after an indictment, they’re followed by a trial.

DeMoreta-Folch said common law grand juries deliver an indictment and that’s it.

Punishment can involve placing a lien on a person’s property.

He said the jury is considering quote “multiple constitutional crimes” against local officials on behalf of the Hammond ranchers.

The community meeting that was planned for this evening (that was designed to avoid militia intimidation with a no weapons and 60 day minimum residency requirement) was canceled. They buffoons indicated they needed to be granted access or they would blockade and protest the town meeting ... sigh ... the thugs will claim both victory and persecution.

Going To Maine linked up thread to a really good interview; Absolutely, God Told Us To Do This, between Scott Carrier (host of Home of the Brave) and shofar blower Brand Thornton that makes a good case for the religious element. (direct link audio 16min21sec).
posted by phoque at 3:00 PM on January 25, 2016

Moon law seems to be spreading.

One of Sheriff Grant's underlings has risen up to take him on.

“When I took my first oath of office as a reserve deputy on April 3, 2000, it was that I would support the Constitution and the laws of the United States and of the state of Oregon, and to honestly and faithfully perform the duties imposed upon the member under the laws of Oregon,” he said in the statement. “I do not remember that there were any clauses that told me this was optional, and up to my interpretation of the Constitution and laws.”

So it'll be interesting to see if his highness, Emperor of the Moon, is dethroned.
posted by Talez at 3:08 PM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oregon militants are taking their revolution to a neighboring county — where they’ve found a friendly sheriff
posted by Artw at 3:09 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yes, for clarification: the Moon Law sheriff is not from Harney County, where resides the wildlife refuge, but from neighboring Grant County.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:23 PM on January 25, 2016

“The sheriff has a practical plan for helping unravel the federal government.”

Well, you can't get much more straight forward than that when it comes to intent. Just in case there was any doubt as to what this was really about.

Sepulvado and other reporters covering the occupation have been warned repeatedly that it’s a felony to ask questions about the common law grand jury or its proceedings

C'mon, if you are going to overthrow the fed, we could at least start by having FEWER secret courts.

The militants could find a receptive audience in Grant County, where the sheriff frequently speaks out against federal authority and serves an advisory role with the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association — whose founder, Richard Mack, urges like-minded officials to overthrow county governments one by one to pursue a right-wing agenda.

OK, I... actually don't have any snide comment about that, just holy shit that there's an association of Sheriffs and Peace Officers with this express intent. Their site is an interesting read. I could easily end up block-quoting the entirety of it.

Anyways, this sheriff being involved is a very very bad sign. In Harney county, most of the community didn't want them there, and local law enforcement certainly didn't either - and these guys have already been able to do as they please. Just imagine where this can go if they have law enforcement on their side... and a lot can happen between now and May, when the Sheriff is up for re-election. I really hope his challenger can stay safe until then.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:47 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

OK, I... actually don't have any snide comment about that, just holy shit that there's an association of Sheriffs and Peace Officers with this express intent.

And people said upthread this shit wasn't primed for spreading, there's no "deep pockets", no sleeper cells, etc. There are a LOT of these groups out there watching this unfold, from the Oath Keepers to the Constitutional Sheriffs movement (yes, that's real, there are real Sheriffs that actually buy into this crap, and more of them all the time) to the 3%er movement to even more radical would-be lone wolves. All of them are seeing Bundy stand tall against the feds and seemingly winning. The lack of response is only emboldening them every hour it goes on completely unchecked.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:12 PM on January 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm one of those that absolutely things this was primed for spreading, and as familiar as I am with so many of the groups you mention, this one was still a surprise. It's one thing to have an independent organization. It's another thing entirely to be so directly tied in with recognized authority.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:17 PM on January 25, 2016

We are just one official NRA statement away from complete nation-wide chaos, aren't we?
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:21 PM on January 25, 2016

That might be a bit histrionic. The wildlife refuge a few miles from my house here remains unoccupied, as do basically all other such locations across the country. Nation-wide chaos isn't impending, by any stretch.
posted by hippybear at 4:40 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Overlapingelvis you have my sympathy, not that it does any good. I wish you and your people the best. Keep trying to get your community back. Remind them again who is and is not. The more of the old feel you can come up with, the better. Remind the Feds and Harney County, you want them out. Again best to you.
posted by Oyéah at 4:53 PM on January 25, 2016

To be clear, I'm from the opposite side of the state. But that doesn't change how I feel about it.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 4:59 PM on January 25, 2016

I was about to edit my words, complete nation-wide chaos is probably an overstatement, that makes it sound like I'm expecting ruined cities on fire -- I guess what I mean is that if they ever took up a cause like this one, it would not be pleasant. I don't feel like it's impending, and I don't think that's super realistic, but I'm also familiar with the sheer amount of misinformation attributed to Mr. Wayne LaPierre, and how often it is taken as complete fact by some.

I don't mean like "armed uprising is an email notice away" but some carefully crafted writing to carefully encourage more actions like this in the name of standing against tyranny or similar could serve as a call to some people spread throughout the US. Doesn't seem too far removed. Plus, I'm sure it would do a lot for sales.

I generally try to stay out of hyperbole, but it popped in my mind as I considered other groups with the motivation to take up a cause like this. It doesn't seem impossible, I'd say it's more likely than their disapproval of the actions at Malheur.

It hasn't happened, of course - so I'll reserve any panic over this for the off chance that something similar happens.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:59 PM on January 25, 2016

just holy shit that there's an association of Sheriffs and Peace Officers with this express intent

This isn't an isolated thing. Sheriffs of 21 counties in Oregon have signed on to this organization, pledging they will not enforce any federal law they deem unconstitutional, that is, gun control.

And one of them is the infamous sheriff of Douglas County who claimed that the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax even as he was mopping up the blood of nine dead on his own community college campus. These guys are nuts.
posted by JackFlash at 5:12 PM on January 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

It's not like most of us guys who are horrified by this thing, and wishing for the rule of law to be more visible (in some way, not necessarily violence), are in charge of the "USA's stance vis a vis telling the world what to do."

Personally, I'm frustrated with that stance, too. Preaching. Choir. Now tell me how I can (in our rich guys club electoral system) actually have an effect on it.

Please do. I'm keen to hear, 'cause I've tried a few things, now.
posted by Archelaus at 5:25 PM on January 25, 2016

While I don't believe we are mere days from middle-age white guys in cammo storming every courthouse in the country, I do believe there are groups like this across the country watching intently as this plays out.

And, right now, I have to think they are feeling encouraged by what they see. Right now, they see no reason not to think about and plan seriously for their own little occupation.

So...anarchy tomorrow? No. But, every day this drags on increases the chances of other groups taking their own "patriotic" shot at tyranny.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:36 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's spreading as well speak, the militants are conducting outreach training seminars this weekend. Because there's still no response or containment whatsoever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:42 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Several comments deleted. This thread isn't gonna benefit from a disquisition on US foreign policy and whether Americans or non-Americans are more smug, etc -- let's just not go there.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:49 PM on January 25, 2016

A link to a single poster about a property rights workshop doesn’t really seem like “spreading”. A graph showing that we’re seeing spikes in people conducting property rights workshops nationwide - that would be spreading. This just means some yahoos in Ohio are doing a thing.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:53 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just when you think that it can not get any more bizarre:
Oregon refuge occupant challenges Chris Christie to sumo wrestling

"One of the men occupying the Malheur Wildlife Refuge in Harney County has challenged New Jersey governor and presidential hopeful Chris Christie to 10 sumo matches.
In a video posted to YouTube Saturday, Kelly Gneiting says the group's occupation of the refuge will end if Christie wins the challenge: "
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:04 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Remember those opposed to nonsense are holding meetings and protests too. There are a lot more against these idiots than for them.
posted by humanfont at 6:08 PM on January 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

if the miscreants were black they would have been carcasses within the first 5 days if not sooner.

Similarly, if this had happened in the USSR, China, or Israel, there would be a smoking hole in the ground with tank tracks all over it. That doesn't mean we want to be like those countries.

I've been saying these people don't know how lucky they are to have citizenship in the (current, modern) US right now. I think someone should publicly dare them to renounce it.
posted by ctmf at 6:31 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

@HarneyCoSheriff OSP arrest subject for DUII in #HarneyCounty He was on his way join militia and "help with killing federal agents"
posted by OverlappingElvis at 6:35 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Presumably they will apologize and send him on his way shortly.
posted by Artw at 6:46 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

If they want their body cams to be admissible in court, they might think about setting the time/date on them...
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:47 PM on January 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

Huh, that was pretty professional. That guy gave them a whole lot of chances to put him on his face, and they didn't take the bait.

I also couldn't help but notice: "were you driving here today by yourself?" as if the question was if he had a buddy, just, you know, curious. When the real question was, "will you admit to me on the recording I'm making that you were driving?" Smooth.
posted by ctmf at 6:55 PM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

"During the contact, it appeared STETSON was armed with a handgun (it turned out to be a pellet gun in a belt holster)."

Who "open carries" a pellet gun? Colonels in the US Armed Forces Green Berets with records sealed by Ronald Reagan, I guess.
posted by ctmf at 7:41 PM on January 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

Another example of shut up when talking to the police without council. First he admits to driving. He makes a mistake about where he is going, which is a sign of confusion --- useful for probable cause. Then he admits to consuming an intoxicating substance -- now they have iron clad probable cause for searches and sobriety tests. He refuses the test, but they have probable cause; so he's getting arrested. Then as they arrest him he decides to start making threats. The officers ignore him; so he repeats himself because he wants to be heard. Except each time he repeats himself that's one more count. The officers are in no hurry, they just record him saying it over and over again. Had he not talked to them, maybe he gets drunk and disorderly. Now they have him confessing to DUI and on camera committing other crimes. Also he's in possssion of a gun during the crime which can ramp up all the charges.
posted by humanfont at 7:50 PM on January 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

You're probably right about how they will be charged, and most of those are deserved - but the idea of someone being hit with multiple counts of a threat for the same threatening incident really doesn't sit well with me. The issue is him threatening the police. It shouldn't be a separate charge with potential jail time for each time he said the words.
posted by corb at 8:47 PM on January 25, 2016

Huh, that was pretty professional. That guy gave them a whole lot of chances to put him on his face, and they didn't take the bait.

That was a great example of not escalating and staying calm in the face of provocation; it is what everyone should be able to expect when they are being talked to by the police, not just an armed white guy. (The video is also full of examples of leading questions which he uses to incriminate himself, but that's a different issue.)
posted by Dip Flash at 9:02 PM on January 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

State troopers enforcing routine state DUI offenses only tangentially related to the militant occupation, that dude hadn't even made it there yet. But proves the point that more idiots are coming from around the country every day, without any restriction it might as well be wingnut Burning Man.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:13 PM on January 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

MetaFilter: might as well be wingnut Burning Man.
posted by ctmf at 9:22 PM on January 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

but the idea of someone being hit with multiple counts of a threat for the same threatening incident really doesn't sit well with me.

Four officers there. Four officers threatened. Four counts. Seems straightforward to me.
posted by mikelieman at 10:09 PM on January 25, 2016

I just spent a few minutes perusing Oregon's statutes, ( and there's some interesting reading ), but although I haven't changed my belief, I don't really find a statute covering making threats to a police officer specifically, so it'll probably be a disorderly conduct charge + dui + whatever they find when they go through his paperwork... ( outstanding warrants, etc... )
posted by mikelieman at 10:18 PM on January 25, 2016

David "Defend Your Base" Fry has been busy filming:

- LaVoy confirms that the group will not leave the federal buildings and his plan is for the buildings to never return to the federal gov't
- Ammon himself takes a moment (literally two minutes) to explain the vast complexities of how public land should work (tl;dw: The ranchers would own the grass for grazing, of course, but multiple use means that campers and hunters and bird watchers are always welcome to tiptoe through the cowpies)
posted by mochapickle at 10:49 PM on January 25, 2016

wingnut Burning Man

Ouch, that's going to bounce around the mind's eye for awhile. Palin in a loin cloth and googles, Trump selling 2 ounce bottles of water, Jeb with a lame art car.

Off to get a drink now.
posted by ridgerunner at 1:14 AM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

It shouldn't be a separate charge with potential jail time for each time he said the words.

As I understand it, this is a completely standard way of charging for things like assault and terroristic threats - what is meant by "counts" of the charge.
posted by Miko at 8:18 AM on January 26, 2016

It's a pretty standard thing to pile-on charges at the time of arrest, in order to give some room for deal-making while not letting the accused completely off the hook.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:39 AM on January 26, 2016

Malheur Occupation’s ‘Heartbreaking’ Impact On County Schools

“I had a conversation with a high school student,” McBride told OPB, “and she wanted to know if someone entered the school with a gun, what was she to do. And I had a 5-year-old come up to me and say she couldn’t sleep at night, because someone was watching her in the trees.”

“This is not okay,” McBride added.
posted by Artw at 9:19 AM on January 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

What with Sumo wrestler militants and militants who put mayo on Wonder Bread blowing shofars the jokes mostly write themselves however a few more oddities came up in my twitter feed today:

Oregon Militiaman Ryan Payne's Failed Criminal Past Comes to Light or "Gone in Sixty One Humdred One Thousand Sec... Oh Crap I Locked Myself in the Trunk!"

Levi "I Always Wanted One Of Them !" Major Gets Arrested For Stealing Malheur Cameras
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:37 PM on January 26, 2016

>David "Defend Your Base" Fry has been busy filming:

What with his leaving for the militancy after his parents went on vacation to Costa Rica the saddest thing is that he will probably receive a Hollywood check for his story being the basis for Home Alone 3: Lost In Malheur
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:44 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

And I had a 5-year-old come up to me and say she couldn’t sleep at night, because someone was watching her in the trees.”

With these people this actually might not be an irrational fear
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:00 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

What with his leaving for the militancy after his parents went on vacation to Costa Rica the saddest thing is that he will probably receive a Hollywood check for his story being the basis for Home Alone 3: Lost In Malheur.

DAVID
[regretfully] I made the government disappear.

Insert shots, all in David's head: Michael Moore accepting Academy Award statue, FBI agents kicking down church door, IRS tax forms fluttering dreamily past camera, man with turban reading from the Koran, Barack Obama taking oath of office.

DAVID
[enthusiastically] I made the government disappear!

Montage: David dances excitedly around the room while soundtrack blasts James Brown's "I Feel Good".

posted by Atom Eyes at 2:08 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

AMMON BUNDY
Watch me pull constitutional government out of my hat!

RYAN BUNDY
But that trick never works!

AMMON BUNDY
Nothing up my sleeve and.... PRESTO!
[Ammon pulls an FBI agent out of his hat]

AMMON BUNDY
Looks like I don't quite know the meaning of the word constitutional...

RYAN BUNDY
And now, something we hope you'll really like!
posted by Talez at 3:34 PM on January 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

"The Constitutionalists"

The scene: Ammon and Ryan Bundy sitting at home early December looking over mounting bills and diminishing bank accounts.....

Ryan: "Ammon, I don't know what we are going to do - that SBA loan has just about run out and you haven't fixed a truck in over a week."

Ammon: (snaps fingers)" I've got it! We'll stage a revolution! But we do it smartly , see? We'll get some big business behind us, behind the scenes, get us tons of money - we'll have millions!"

Ryan: "Revolutions cost money Ammon - we'll go through that cash in less than a month."

Ammon: "Not thinking big enough there Little Bro! We'll stage a revolution all right but we'll do it badly - so badly in fact that they'll shut us down in a matter of days and we'll get to keep that sweet, sweet funding. We'll take over a Bird Sanctuary ! We'll recruit the worst possible players! Two, maybe three days tops and we'll be out of business and made a fortune!"

Ryan: "Brilliant big Brother! "

Four Weeks Later:

Ryan: "So great, the revolution's a hit and we're almost of of money They even loved the Sumo wrestler. Any more bright ideas big brother?"

Ammon: (thinks carefully) "We need a Revolutionary Anthem so awful .... so horrible... I got it! Springtime For Bundys! "
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:54 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

Springtime for Bundy and Oregon
Malheur is happy and gay
We're occupying a federal place
Look out, we're defending the white race
posted by Talez at 4:09 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

mikelieman: "I don't really find a statute covering making threats to a police officer specifically, so it'll probably be a disorderly conduct charge + dui + whatever they find when they go through his paperwork..."

Does Oregon not consider utter threats to be assault?

Does Oregon state police publish all body cam footage?
posted by Mitheral at 4:18 PM on January 26, 2016

"so what's the name of this revolution you're doing?"

"the ARISTOCRATS!!"
posted by pyramid termite at 4:29 PM on January 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

“The Constitutionalists”

That’s a hell of a wildlife refuge takeover! What do you call it?
posted by Going To Maine at 4:31 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

"the ARISTOCRATS!!"
OMG that was funny !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:31 PM on January 26, 2016

Breaking: A possible shooting in or near Burns - possibly 30 miles away from town - not confirmed by major news sources as yet - near town called Idlywylde (sp?) - police blocking roads - eyewitness report of police blockage - unconfirmed reports that Militia members have been asked to leave the wildlife refuge.

I hate to link and will not to the Santelli channel but there are multiple eye witnesses reporting - awaiting for regular media reporting.

EDIT: Santelli now claiming that communications with Malheur has been lost and attempts are being made by Santilli to remove militia from Malheur. Hate this hack source :( - but appears quite possibly legit
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:49 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh heck - here is the Santilli link - judge for yourselves

Edit: Santilli claiming Ammon Bundy may be in custody
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:53 PM on January 26, 2016

The Oregonian staff are trying to confirm it. Also about 50 counter protestors were in John Day holding signs surrounding the expected 6pm meeting.
posted by humanfont at 5:53 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Harney County District Hospital on Lockdown
posted by chrchr at 5:57 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

This says Ammon Bundy has been arrested.
posted by drezdn at 5:58 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Leader of Oregon occupation Ammon Bundy, three others arrested

KATU news link - real media
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:01 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I hope this is true, and I hope whatever is left of these peoples' rational minds realizes that now is the time to de-es calate.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:02 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Santelli video stream just went permanently dark as Santeilli attempted to approach refuge gates and confront FBI at compound. YouTube message states "Streamer stopped streaming"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:03 PM on January 26, 2016

“Streamer, no streaming!”
posted by Going To Maine at 6:05 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

Aren't those KATU "sources" probably just Pete Santilli at this point?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 6:05 PM on January 26, 2016

Fingers crossed whatever's going down ends swiftly and safety with Bundy and chums in jail/kicked out* and no law enforcement or civilian injuries.

* In jail, to whatever extent possible.
posted by Artw at 6:07 PM on January 26, 2016

KATU says there will be a press release soon. Oregonian also confirmed the road is blocked.
posted by humanfont at 6:09 PM on January 26, 2016

KOIN Live Stream.
posted by spitbull at 6:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Apparently the militants were on their way to a planned community meeting at the John Day senior center - when the FBI (??) stopped them in the middle of nowhere with a roadblock and arrested them. The local hospital is on lockdown - a possible shooting of someone may have taken place.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

This just straight up is starting to sound like FanFare thread. Cannot make this stuff up.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:20 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also it is unclear, but Santelli suggests there are still folks at the refuge. They seem to be lead by Blane Cooper and he is talking crazy.
posted by humanfont at 6:20 PM on January 26, 2016

The Oregonian reporting that Santilli says two people were shot.
posted by mochapickle at 6:21 PM on January 26, 2016

Blaine Cooper, for anyone interested ,is a Stolen Valor member. Several previous arrests.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:22 PM on January 26, 2016

Blaine Coopers, for anyone interested is a Stolen Valor member. Several previous arrests.

Also the one with his wife there. Plus they left two young children at home, had issues with child protective services because her parents called them, then there are rumors the children might've appeared at the refuge.
posted by bluecore at 6:26 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

That story linked upthread about the women of Malheur mentioned that children (not sure if they were the Coopers or another family) are at the refuge. Perhaps that spurred the action.
posted by mochapickle at 6:28 PM on January 26, 2016

Oregonian reporter tweets "Ryan Payne, one of the occupation leaders, suffered multiple gunshots, according to a local government official."
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:29 PM on January 26, 2016

Also, Blaine Cooper isn't his original name. He changed it. "Blain Cooper" is the character Jesse Ventura played in Predator (wielding the giant chain gun.)
posted by bluecore at 6:32 PM on January 26, 2016

How many open-carry gun nuts shot each other by accident?
posted by ctmf at 6:33 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Reports now that Pete Santelli has now been arrested as well.
Probably for crimes against journalism.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:34 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Phony judge may have illegally impersonated a cop to bring militants’ kids to occupied Oregon refuge
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on January 26, 2016

I wonder if they will be as fast to release the footage of this as they were the arrest of that drunk guy?

I'm glad they arrested at least a few of these jackasses; I hope the rest just go home peacefully or surrender, whatever is the better option.

The list of potential charges against many of the militants could (at the government's discretion) be painfully long. It will be interesting to see how harshly the feds decide to pursue legal action once the standoff is actually over.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:37 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

AGameOfMoans: "Ryan Payne, one of the occupation leaders, suffered multiple gunshots, according to a local government official."

I thought this guy was going to be one of the true dangerous ones. He was an actual vet and it seemed he say some actual combat, which might've lead to PTSD. Apparently, one of his buddies came up to Oregon to try to get him to come back because he was worried Ryan was "trying to commit suicide by government agent". That lead to the fist fight that was reported very early in the occupation, but his buddy left after Ryan was determined to stay.
posted by bluecore at 6:37 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oregonian reporter tweets "Ryan Payne, one of the occupation leaders, suffered multiple gunshots, according to a local government official."

Just tweeted that was wrong, waiting for law enforcement statement.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:39 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

On The Media: Breaking News Consumer's Handbooks: Breaking News Edition, Active Shooter Edition
posted by hippybear at 6:43 PM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Be interesting to see what the 'left behinds' do at Malheur. Give up, or dig in?
posted by ctmf at 6:48 PM on January 26, 2016

According to the stream Santelli was not arrested, but went with police who wanted info about Cooper.
posted by humanfont at 6:49 PM on January 26, 2016

Roundup of new outlet tweets reporting that Bundy was arrested by the FBI and shots were fired.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 PM on January 26, 2016

The KOIN livestream isn't working for me, but this does. (Bundy arrested in traffic stop.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:53 PM on January 26, 2016

One dead, six arrested in traffic stop. Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne in custody.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:59 PM on January 26, 2016

It's early yet, but I do hope the reports of someone being killed are erroneous.
posted by hippybear at 7:01 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sorry, hippybear - FBI confirms one dead - one of the Bundyites. No ID as yet.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:05 PM on January 26, 2016

"All charged with federal felony - conspiracy to impede a federal officer by force."

Anyone know how much time that can carry? I'm sure more charges will be added later, hopefully along with the original ranch stuff that started all this.
posted by bluecore at 7:05 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Les Nessman Zaitz from the Oregonian reporting that Joseph Donald O'Shaughnessy and
Brian Cavalier are among those militants arrested
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:05 PM on January 26, 2016

Bundys in custody, one militant dead after gunfight near Burns

Looks like Ryan Bundy got lightly shot too.
posted by phoque at 7:08 PM on January 26, 2016

I'm sure more charges will be added later, hopefully along with the original ranch stuff that started all this.

Well, if the idiots fired on the FBI, I imagine that resisting arrest and attempted murder charges will not be far behind.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:09 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

FBI confirms one dead - one of the Bundyites

This sounds suboptimal.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:09 PM on January 26, 2016

The Harney County Fire and EMS radio (has been very quiet)
posted by phoque at 7:10 PM on January 26, 2016

Anyone know how much time that can carry?

Six years.
posted by Talez at 7:11 PM on January 26, 2016

Here's hoping for more charges.
posted by Artw at 7:12 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

18 U.S. Code § 372 - Conspiracy to impede or injure officer:

If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107–273, div. B, title IV, § 4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:12 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

They are initially charged with Conspiracy to injure or impede a Federal Officer
posted by humanfont at 7:12 PM on January 26, 2016

I guess for those of us who have been asking for action, this is the moment of truth. Was hoping for no bloodshed, I hope that there's none beyond than what we are already aware of.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:13 PM on January 26, 2016

Anyone know how much time that can carry?

8 years (with 20 for use of a deadly weapon), but if they fired on FBI agents that's attempted murder of a federal officer, 20 years. Plus Oregon is a felony murder state.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:13 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

The live feed just said Lavoy and Ryan were shot. That other article described Ryan's wounds as light, so it might be Lavoy (the older rancher/blue tarp/foster kids guy) who is dead.
posted by bluecore at 7:14 PM on January 26, 2016

I guess for those of us who have been asking for action, this is the moment of truth. Was hoping for no bloodshed, I hope that there's none beyond than what we are already aware of.

I hope so. BLM, FWS, NPS public servants are all unarmed out there in remote areas.
posted by Talez at 7:14 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Harney County Fire and EMS radio (has been very quiet)

Not surprising, as the Feds wouldn't be quick to draw them in.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:15 PM on January 26, 2016

Hopefully this is the end of it, and if there have to be injuries hopefully they're all on the side of Bundy and his idiot friends.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:17 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

For anyone that isn't clicking through on all the recent links:

Arrested
Ammon Bundy
Ryan Bundy
Brian "Booda" Cavalier
Ryan Payne
Shawna Cox
Joe O'Shaughnessy (in a separate locale)


Dead
One unknown Bundyite

Injured
One unknown Bundyite
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:18 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Anyone know how much time that can carry?

Obstructing or Impeding Officers
Base level: 10
If (A) the offense involved physical contact; or (B) a dangerous weapon (including a firearm) was possessed and its use was threatened, increase by 3 levels.

If a conspiracy, decrease by 3 levels, unless the defendant or a co-conspirator completed all the acts the conspirators believed necessary on their part for the successful completion of the substantive offense or the circumstances demonstrate that the conspirators were about to complete all such acts but for apprehension or interruption by some similar event beyond their control.

Based on the defendant's role in the offense, increase the offense level as follows:
If the defendant was an organizer or leader of a criminal activity that involved five or more participants or was otherwise extensive, increase by 4 levels.

So, about 15-21 months I'm guessing, not really being trained to know what I'm doing, just reading. Many other adjustments probably apply, plus more charges will probably be piled on.
posted by ctmf at 7:19 PM on January 26, 2016

One of the links referred to Ryan Bundy as having taken a minor injury.
posted by Archelaus at 7:20 PM on January 26, 2016

Of the six or so reported arrested by officials, David Fry is not among them. Not that I want anyone to have been shot but I do hope that it was not him. He had a kind of innocence about him .. I mean for him being a Nazi and all.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:20 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

What the shit? This is the worst of all worlds. If the FBI was planning to confront them en masse, they should have taken the compound. If they just wanted to quietly arrest, they should have waited until they separated.

One dead is not a good outcome. Yesterday, conservatives were all calling them idiots. Today, the view is going to be that there's a protester murdered. And there are still people behind at the compound? Including children?

Fuck.
posted by corb at 7:21 PM on January 26, 2016

It doesn't sound like they fired on the FBI, hence "conspiracy to." Probably just reached for the guns and... didn't reach them.
posted by ctmf at 7:22 PM on January 26, 2016

The latest from the militants' official youtube channel (from 15 minutes ago) doesn't seem like a good development. Hopefully the stragglers get dealt with swiftly.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:23 PM on January 26, 2016

They were always going to shoot at somebody. It's why they were there. Getting the leadership on the road away from the refuge is probably the best outcome. Here's hoping for the least death and bloodshed.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:23 PM on January 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

I hope for everyone's sake that the FBI were wearing bodycams, because "they reached for their guns, we swear" is not going to cut it in a lot of circles.
posted by corb at 7:23 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Reaching for the gun is attempted murder of a federal officer.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:23 PM on January 26, 2016

I don’t know, it’s seems like a good plan. Arrest them when they leave, isn’t that what people were asking for. They got the leaders.
posted by bongo_x at 7:24 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think they may have been concerned about women and children at the compound so acted where they weren't.
posted by phoque at 7:25 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Corb- video of the Bundys -personally threatening to shoot the guys that stopped them- wouldn't cut it in a lot of circles, when it comes down to it. The guys who support these folks are kind of off in fringe-conspiracy-lala-land.
posted by Archelaus at 7:26 PM on January 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

What the shit? This is the worst of all worlds.

Not sure I agree with that. If they were willing to go for their guns on a traffic stop, they certainly would've done it with 30 more militia members behind them. Clearing houses is the deadliest things soldiers do, as all it takes to guard a room is to aim a gun in the general direction of the door and spray. So you would've had a lot more casualties on both sides along with 7 or 8 kids in the mix. The shitty thing is they killed the one actual rancher among the whole group, but he also said early on he wasn't going to live in a cage, so he might've drawn on purpose.
posted by bluecore at 7:28 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

What the shit? This is the worst of all worlds. If the FBI was planning to confront them en masse, they should have taken the compound. If they just wanted to quietly arrest, they should have waited until they separated.

They...did? I'm not sure how waiting until they could get a number of them in a remote, essentially uninhabited location is worse than storming the compound where children are.

I hope for everyone's sake that the FBI were wearing bodycams, because "they reached for their guns, we swear" is not going to cut it in a lot of circles.

And thus the problem with open carry. You can't tell whether someone is going for a weapon when they're aggressively displaying it, which is exactly what open carry is. We're also seeing evidence, like the recent shooting in Colorado (before the PP shooting), that open carry laws have prevented law enforcement from identifying and stopping shooters that have already or are in the process of committing murder.

Not that it matters anyway, because the people in those circles will always find a way to make these guys patriots and the feds jackbooted thugs, even with video.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:28 PM on January 26, 2016 [18 favorites]

And, yeah, as others pointed out: these guys have been openly threatening to fire upon and kill government representatives, for which they quite deservedly lose all benefit of doubt.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:30 PM on January 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Should have been earlier and with less casualties, but better than nothing.

As for terrorist sympathizer a having feels about the fallen nutjob, I could give a shit.
posted by Artw at 7:31 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

corb: "If the FBI was planning to confront them en masse, they should have taken the compound. If they just wanted to quietly arrest, they should have waited until they separated.
"

The FBI may have had intelligence that forced the timing. EG: planned violence at their destination.
posted by Mitheral at 7:31 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

> ... "they reached for their guns, we swear" is not going to cut it in a lot of circles.

I can't wait to see the theories that people come up with to explain why only one person was killed by the Evil FBI Who Wanted Them All Dead.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:32 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

The idea that sovereign citizen terrorists will calm down and deescalate their tactics because the FBI showed them some video footage is just about the craziest thing I've read in this thread, corb.
posted by ryanrs at 7:33 PM on January 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

Raw Story (i know) reporting that LaVoy Finicum — the Oregon militant beneath the blue tarp — killed in police shootout
(He was the one with the numerous foster children)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:33 PM on January 26, 2016

Who's left at the campground?
posted by corb at 7:33 PM on January 26, 2016

The FBI may have had intelligence that forced the timing.

Based on what I've read about the purpose of the meeting in John Day they were heading to, it sort of makes sense to keep them from getting to that location for that meeting. Linking up with a sympathetic sheriff in a neighboring county is sort of like cancer metastasizing. That shots were fired and someone was killed was probably not how the FBI wanted this to play out.
posted by hippybear at 7:34 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who's left at the campground?

Occupied buildings. There are no campgrounds within the wildlife refuge.
posted by hippybear at 7:37 PM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Sorry, hippybear, force of habit and I'm a little bit in...I mean it's not exactly shock, but more of a "oh fuck I hope this doesn't go the way I think it's going to go over the next year."
posted by corb at 7:39 PM on January 26, 2016

Who's left at the campground?

A bunch of criminals?
posted by phoque at 7:39 PM on January 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

The next step: "Bundy to occupy new Federal lands".

The seditionists sent all their leaders on this trip? This is like when Star Trek puts all the senior officers in an away team. Dumber than advertised.
posted by grouse at 7:39 PM on January 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

I think the Feds have done everything they can not to escalate this. It’s up to the nut jobs what happens now.
posted by bongo_x at 7:41 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bet they're all going to accuse sheriff Palmer of cooperating with the feds in a false flag op, lol.
posted by ryanrs at 7:42 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Live feed said Pete Santilli is getting the same charges as all the other occupiers.

Also:

"I talked to Blaine. He said they're going to stand their ground. They're going to die there."
posted by bluecore at 7:42 PM on January 26, 2016

Who's left at the campground?

That's the $64k question, it appears Blaine Cooper and Jon Ritzheimer are the only "leaders" left unaccounted for. Those two were probably the least stable of the bunch. It's going to be critical tonight and tomorrow how the remainder reacts to this and whether they go into siege mode now or give it up while they can.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:43 PM on January 26, 2016

Bet they're all going to accuse sheriff Palmer of cooperating with the fed in a false flag op, lol.

Everything, including the occupation itself, is going to be declared multiple levels of false fags within false flags, since everything always is with conspiracy theorists.
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

And the children - there were at least 2 children there as well :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:45 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I wonder how high up the chain the order came from.

So much time to plan and they couldn't come up with a way to do this without bloodshed? Couldn't they have secretly evacuated the meeting site and tackled them as they entered, or something?
posted by Trochanter at 7:47 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jon Ritzheimer is in Arizona. Blaine Cooper may be the man in charge, if anyone is.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:48 PM on January 26, 2016

Ritzheimer has surrendered, according to Les Zaitz (whose story is now up).
posted by honestcoyote at 7:48 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Several hours later, Jon Ritzheimer, a key militant leader, surrendered to police on the conspiracy charge. "

- Bundys in custody, one militant dead after gunfight near Burns
(which is of course early-breaking, possibly wrong, news)
posted by ctmf at 7:48 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

“I talked to Blaine. He said they're going to stand their ground. They're going to die there.”

Oh please, no. Please.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:48 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

.

I hope this doesn't escalate, but I was also hoping it would end without bloodshed, and angry people with guns generally leads to escalation and bloodshed.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:49 PM on January 26, 2016

Couldn't they have secretly evacuated the meeting site and tackled them as they entered, or something?

A half-dozen of them, all armed? Nah.
posted by ryanrs at 7:50 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Couldn't they have secretly evacuated the meeting site and tackled them as they entered, or something?

Did you miss how the meeting they were on the way to was held by a neighboring sympathetic sheriff? They were on the way to preach the movement against the government, to a sympathetic local audience. It wasn't, and couldn't be, a FBI sting.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:51 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Angry, grieving people, who have no way of knowing right now what actually happened, except that someone is dead.

My hope at this point is that they evacuate the women and children.
posted by corb at 7:52 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

OregonLive.com has live YouTube-caliber comments that keep popping up at the bottom right.

DO NOT WANT.
posted by grouse at 7:52 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Angry, grieving people, who have no way of knowing right now what actually happened, except that someone is dead.

Yes, won't someone think of the terrorists.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:54 PM on January 26, 2016 [30 favorites]

There was never any chance of this ending completely peacefully, given the stance taken by the occupiers. Arresting the leaders away from the compound is definitely the better move to make once the opportunity arose.

It's a shame there was gunplay and casualties, but it had to be expected, given the rhetoric of the Bundyites.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:55 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

So much time to plan and they couldn't come up with a way to do this without bloodshed? Couldn't they have secretly evacuated the meeting site and tackled them as they entered, or something?

Again, I'm not sure how this is a failure on anyone's part but the Bundys. They could have had bombs (with or without a deadman switch), they could have put someone on point precisely to foil this sort of tactic while the rest opened fire wildly, or any of a number of other much worse situations than what actually happened. This isn't an action movie, where tackling the terrorist totally works 100% of the time with none of the "good guys" getting hurt or killed. Doing this somewhere far away from innocent civilians in a way that attempts to also remove them from any retaliation seems like the right call.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:55 PM on January 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

When you have a large group of armed people insisting on bloodshed I don’t see how it’s reasonable to expect there to not be any.

If crazy people blame the Feds it seems to me to be admitting that the Feds are the adults held to a higher standard and the terrorists aren’t capable of making rational decisions.
posted by bongo_x at 7:55 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Angry, grieving people, who have no way of knowing right now what actually happened, except that someone is dead.

Yeah they could do this thing other people do which is watch the news instead of Fox propaganda, wait for facts, and not go off half-cocked.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:56 PM on January 26, 2016

Yes, won't someone think of the terrorists.

I would infinitely prefer arrested sovereigns to dead sovereigns, in the same way that I would prefer an arrested and prosecuted terrorist to one shot dead in the act.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:57 PM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Corb, does any of this endgame surprise you? I don't think it surprises many, and I'm not sure that anyone involved should have expected different.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:57 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think a lot of us would prefer that domestic terrorists and foreign terrorists alike were taken into custody rather than killed, but let's remember that the domestic and foreign terrorists' actions play a part in how achievable that goal is.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:00 PM on January 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

Cliven Bundy, via Matt Pearce of the LA Times: "We believe that those federal people shouldn’t even be there in that state, and be in that county and have anything to do with this issue. ... I have some sons and other people there trying to protect our rights and liberties and freedoms, and now we’ve got one killed, and all I can say is, he’s sacrificed for a good purpose.”
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:01 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Angry, grieving people

Who were already angry, and armed, and prepared to commit further crimes.

who have no way of knowing right now what actually happened

Except that they've been saying out loud that they were expecting this to happen, with a not-too-subtle subtext that they wanted it to happen.

except that someone is dead

It's almost as if they've been saying they would kill and/or be killed over this.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:01 PM on January 26, 2016 [21 favorites]

I can't really say that it surprises me, but I think like a few other posters, when the federales didn't come rolling in, when they let supplies through, we thought they might be playing a long, non-violent game. Why wait until now to use violence? It makes no sense - and no, 'meeting with a sheriff who might feel sympathy' is not a valid immediate threat. So no - it doesn't surprise me, I suppose, in the way that I feel I should expect to have hope crushed out of me by a brutal world, but you know, it's not great.
posted by corb at 8:01 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I hope they get David Wynn Miller as their moon lawyer.
posted by ctmf at 8:02 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Again, I'm not sure how this is a failure on anyone's part but the Bundys.

There’s really not enough news yet to say. The FBI would surely have liked to have negotiated a peaceful surrender, if possible.

Corb, does any of this endgame surprise you? I don't think it surprises many, and I'm not sure that anyone involved should have expected different.

I mean, going back to that Freeman incident that I love going back to, I personally tend to believe that a peaceful negotiated surrender could have been negotiated (especially if it had been handled differently than at the start). This is a bad ending in the sense that the camp is apparently preparing for an assault. A better end would be the camp peacefully shut down as well.

But these are all hypothetical reasons, and there a thousand hypotheticals about which we still know nothing. We won't be able to unpack this situation until much later, when we have the facts of how everything went down.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:03 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Is it possible some officer saw a movement and shot when it wasn't necessary? Sure, we can wait and see on that. But we aren't talking about some random citizen walking down the street and getting shot for reaching for his wallet or something, remember the context here. The terrorists forced a dangerous confrontation with law enforcement because of weeks of public, criminal, threatening behavior.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:03 PM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

They should have been arrested day one - anyone pushing for anything less was really urging them towards suicide.
posted by Artw at 8:04 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Given that we don't yet know how the encounter went down, it's entirely possible the Fed roadblock was initially presented -as- nonviolent, corb, and that the Bundys decided to take the violent option in an attempt to evade.

Given that their credo -expressly- allowed for shooting cops that hinder them (this is a baseline Sovereign Citizen belief), it's not exactly hard to understand how this could have started as a nonviolent arrest and escalated.
posted by Archelaus at 8:05 PM on January 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

Why wait until now to use violence?

It looks like the FBI tried to avoid violence at all costs, they finally made a move, with all the leaders together on an isolated stretch of highway, you think the first plan was, let's shoot one of them? No. They obviously tried to make the arrests, and one or more of them refused to go quietly, exactly like they have been saying all along.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:05 PM on January 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

One of the militants, Ritzheimer, ran home, is being asked by FBI to turn himself in and now attempting to crowdsource bail & legal fees via Facebook while using his crying children in a "Please Fund Daddy" video
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:08 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fuck, think of all the times we here about the Tueller drill and how people absolutely had to get shot because they might have had knives - these obviously dangerous idiots got off lightly.
posted by Artw at 8:09 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Why wait until now to use violence? It makes no sense - and no, 'meeting with a sheriff who might feel sympathy' is not a valid immediate threat.

No one is saying the meeting was an immediate threat. It's that they were armed, had been promising violence, and that (presumably) they did something that escalated that potential threat to an immediate one. To completely ignore that as a likely possibility, or even a possibility at all, is preposterous.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:09 PM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

The Grant County Sherrif who got an autographed Constitution from Bundy and who setup the meeting in John Day was apparently manning the roadblock tonight from John Day to Burns. Seems like his earlier statements may have been part of a trap.
posted by humanfont at 8:10 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

and no, 'meeting with a sheriff who might feel sympathy' is not a valid immediate threat

Yeah a meeting representing a serious risk of this sort of occupation suddenly occurring in another place simultaneously, with the backing of local law enforcement isn't any kind of threat at all no sirree
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:10 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Waco is often criticized for them not arresting Koresh when he was out of the compound. In this instance, the Bundys announced exactly where and when they would be at a location, which gave them the route he would most likely take. It was a rural area with no one around to get injured in the cross-fire and nowhere for them to run. Also, they never seemed to take their rifles to the meetings, so they wouldn't have been heavily armed. It's a good call in my book for an attempt at a non-violent arrest of the ringleaders.
posted by bluecore at 8:11 PM on January 26, 2016 [37 favorites]

It's certainly possible, which is why I really hope for bodycam footage. But I can't help but think that Drinky Die's suggestion isn't the most likely - someone moved in some way, a Fed thought he was going for his gun, and opened fire, at which point others opened fire, at which point more opened fire. Because honestly, that's what we train law enforcement and federal officers to do in this country - we train them to shoot first and ask questions later.

I don't blame the individual officers, and I don't think anyone set out to murder the rancher. But I do think that this was probably poorly planned and executed, and that led to violence, which escalation has made the sole guy left feel like he has operational control, which could lead to some really terrible outcomes.
posted by corb at 8:12 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Seems like his earlier statements may have been part of a trap.

Oh jeez. That guy's going to need some protective custody if that starts getting around the nutosphere.
posted by ctmf at 8:12 PM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ritzheimer has surrendered, according to Les Zaitz (whose story is now up).

In that story, there is a third or fourth hand claim that the shooting was unjustified:

Fiore, a vocal supporter of the Bundy family, said that Ammon Bundy told his wife that Finicum was cooperating with police and had put his hands up. Then, Fiore said, Bundy told his wife that he watched police shoot Finicum three times. She said that Ammon Bundy also said Finicum was on the ground when he was shot.

With those kinds of claims being made, I expect that the FBI or OSP will release footage soon. The hard core true believers won't accept it, but it will still defuse most of it.

Given the poor options available, having all the leaders together, but without the majority of the followers and dependents, and on a deserted road far from the public, seems like the best chance of not having a bunch of dead people, including both militants and law enforcement.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:13 PM on January 26, 2016

On what basis do you assert that this was poorly planned and executed? As in actual facts.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:13 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

On what basis do you assert that this was poorly planned and executed? As in actual facts.

A corpse.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

we train them to shoot first and ask questions later.

What possible questions do you think required asking here?
posted by Artw at 8:15 PM on January 26, 2016

There is also an armed mock militia contingent that came to defend the occupiers from the Feds on the outside the refuge. So there are still a whole load of loose cannons running around looking for an excuse to pop off.
posted by phoque at 8:15 PM on January 26, 2016

Because honestly, that's what we train law enforcement and federal officers to do in this country - we train them to shoot first and ask questions later.

Except in this case they waited over 3 weeks to shoot. A lot of questions were asked in the mean time, which were all answered with threats of violence.

At what point does, "we are here to kill federal officials" become actionable? Apparently in your world, never.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

The level of speculation in this thread is enough to start its own conspiracy movement.
posted by hippybear at 8:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

we thought they might be playing a long, non-violent game. Why wait until now to use violence?

I don’t think they had a non violent play to make, they had a least violent play and they made it. It takes two and all that.
posted by bongo_x at 8:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

using his crying children in a "Please Fund Daddy" video

Those kids are getting a real number done on them. This guy is so profoundly immature and narcissistic.
posted by Miko at 8:17 PM on January 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

It’s also interesting to compare and contrast assumptions and comments about federal competence and skills at making arrests with threads about responses to protests, shootings by police, etc. There’s a story to be told, and I’m truly not sure what it is. But I’d love for someone to do the work to put it all together.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:17 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

But I do think that this was probably poorly planned and executed, and that led to violence, which escalation has made the sole guy left feel like he has operational control, which could lead to some really terrible outcomes.

Oh, please. These people openly and repeatedly declared their intentions to die for their cause, and would *never* give up the sanctuary. That there is only one dead tells me that it was a very well-planned exercise.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:19 PM on January 26, 2016 [30 favorites]

A corpse.

That's bullshit. The people threatening to kill law enforcement have had agency throughout this process, and their actions increased the degree of difficulty involved in ending things without someone getting hurt/killed. It's reasonable to expect cops to be patient while Amadou Diallo reaches for his wallet, but far less reasonable to expect every situation involving armed assholes threatening to use force to end without any of said assholes being harmed.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:20 PM on January 26, 2016 [30 favorites]

On what basis do you assert that this was poorly planned and executed? As in actual facts.

On the actual fact that what they should have done is had Superman fly in from behind and pick each of the Bundys up by their shirtcollars and fly straight up in the air while directing his infrared vision at the other militiamen's guns so they drop them when they get red hot. That is a properly planned and executed outcome, and anything short of that is obviously overreaching by the authorities.
posted by yhbc at 8:20 PM on January 26, 2016 [35 favorites]

On what basis do you assert that this was poorly planned and executed? As in actual facts.

A corpse.

Which could easily have been caused by these chuckleheads, who are on record threatening lives, pulling out weaponry.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:21 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

from yesterday: Bundys escalating showdown with feds — as support dwindles and lone wolves come looking for trouble
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:21 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

> It’s also interesting to compare and contrast assumptions and comments about federal competence and skills at making arrests with threads about responses to protests,

Whether or not the people to be arrested are carrying guns they have promised to use on the arresting officers seems to be enough of an explanation for me.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:21 PM on January 26, 2016 [11 favorites]

someone moved in some way, a Fed thought he was going for his gun, and opened fire, at which point others opened fire, at which point more opened fire. Because honestly, that's what we train law enforcement and federal officers to do in this country - we train them to shoot first and ask questions later.

Okay, this is now entering bullshit rationalization territory. This is 100% different from shooting a pre-teen with a toy gun in less time than he could possibly have ever been warned. This was people who were threatening to kill those that got in their way, who had been harassing innocents for weeks, and who were given almost a month to rattle their sabres while being handled with kid gloves. They were openly carrying weapons expressly for the purpose of removing any obstacles via deadly force, had shown to be unstable, and on a hair-trigger.

It’s also interesting to compare and contrast assumptions and comments about federal competence and skills at making arrests with threads about responses to protests, shootings by police, etc.

The comparisons and contrasts are being made. This insistence on putting these guys side-by-side with unarmed protesters and police shooting victims is really gross.

There’s a story to be told, and I’m truly not sure what it is.

Then maybe we should wait on trying so hard to make that story be "whatever happened in response to violent, racist, possibly crazy and definitely heavily-armed thugs and how they react from here is 100% not be the responsibility of said thugs, and never should be."
posted by zombieflanders at 8:26 PM on January 26, 2016 [33 favorites]

On what basis do you assert that this was poorly planned and executed? As in actual facts.

From the start, this whole thing - allowing them resupply, not putting up roadblocks until now, then suddenly coming in strength. It's not really a coherent narrative or plan, and makes me wonder if different people were giving different orders at different times, or if they were responding to pressure.
posted by corb at 8:28 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Drop a giant bulletproof tarp on the vehicle and pump some incapacitating gas in. Something. We couldn't outwit these bozos and keep them alive?
posted by Trochanter at 8:29 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

No one knows a damn thing about what went down - this is pure speculation and axe-grinding. How about waiting to see what the facts are, instead of mounting an imaginary defense against imaginary narratives, based only on pre-existing biases?
posted by Miko at 8:30 PM on January 26, 2016 [25 favorites]

@HenryKrinkle: Shooting at cops to defend forcible privatization of public lands for exploitation by ranchers & mining companies.

Not my idea of worthwhile resistance.

posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:31 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Horseshit. People have been predicting from the beginning that a bunch of nutjobs who wanted to kill and die for a cause taking over federal property would result in multiple deaths. A corpse, tragic as it is, is not the most optimal outcome but it seems better than most of the alternatives.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:32 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

You're well into "shoot out the tires!" territory, Trochanter. I'd love to have seen zero deaths, but these idiots insisted on a bloody outcome.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:33 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

My Poe's Law detector has exploded.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:34 PM on January 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

Arresting six people on a deserted road is hardly "coming in strength." Nor was it sudden.

The roadblock seems to have been put up specifically because that group was heading to that place for the explicit purpose of spreading their ridiculous claims wider, with the help and support of law enforcement. Please stop ignoring that as something that actual law enforcement has a vested interest in preventing.

The simple fact is that these guys have been threatening to kill Federal officers and brandishing weapons for weeks. They are, frankly, lucky to be alive and the fact that they are still alive is a testament to the forbearance of the FBI and the calm and measured approach they have taken to this. While do not disagree that the Feds should have arrested these idiots early on, they have a valid fear of things suddenly going pear-shaped, what with all the weaponry and innocents around.

Arresting the ringleaders on a deserted road is the safest outcome there is that remains within the bounds of reality. That one got shot is almost certainly due to them drawing weapons or appearing to--a credible threat given their multiple statements on the record about what they were willing to do.

More to the point, that one person was killed is testament, again, to restraint on the part of law enforcement.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:35 PM on January 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

They could easily have killed them all with no risk to the feds. That only one was killed tells me that they were trying very hard, and took real risks in order to do so, to arrest rather than kill. The shooting may have been an error or may be justified, it will take time to know, but if the goal was killing there would be a lot more bodies.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:35 PM on January 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

From the start, this whole thing - allowing them resupply, not putting up roadblocks until now, then suddenly coming in strength. It's not really a coherent narrative or plan, and makes me wonder if different people were giving different orders at different times, or if they were responding to pressure.

They let them stew when they were fired up and ready for a fight. They let them think they could come and go. When the terrorists got complacent they arrested them away from the site. Seems like it worked to me.

Drop a giant bulletproof tarp on the vehicle and pump some incapacitating gas in.

Or, maybe things that work in the real world, not Batman movies.
posted by bongo_x at 8:36 PM on January 26, 2016 [19 favorites]

Drop a giant bulletproof tarp on the vehicle and pump some incapacitating gas in.

With what? An invisible, 100% noiseless helicopter? A stealth drone that can also carry a large, extremely heavy tarp? Some super-secret knockout gas that works instantly, can be administered remotely, and only affects bad guys? That gas guy from The Flash?

Let me revise my admonition from up thread. This isn't an action movie, nor is it science fiction.

We couldn't outwit these bozos and keep them alive?

I see we've already arrived at the point of pretending that they never said all those things about going out guns blazing.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:37 PM on January 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

Drop a giant bulletproof tarp on the vehicle and pump some incapacitating gas in.

You watch too many action movies.
posted by ryanrs at 8:37 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's still entirely possible that the person who died shot himself or was shot accidentally by one of the other protestors. Let's just see what's what.
posted by Miko at 8:37 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Guess I could never be FBI. I don't think I'd have the self-control to arrest these guys and not, when they're on the ground in cuffs, 'accidentally' tread on them just a little.
posted by ctmf at 8:38 PM on January 26, 2016

A corpse, tragic as it is, is not the most optimal outcome but it seems better than most of the alternatives.

Put it this way: The Clinton on my shoulder says that a corpse is fine, especially if the fort is closed peacefully. The Sanders on my other shoulder says that we should strive for no bodies. So yes. If only.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:38 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I see we've already arrived at the point of pretending that they never said all those things about going out guns blazing.

yeah that was pretty quick
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:38 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

> We couldn't outwit these bozos and keep them alive?

So this was serious? That's what happens when you decide to play with guns — the stakes go up massively for everyone involved. The bozos decided to play with guns and now one of them paid the price. They are lucky there was only one.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:39 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

I see we've already arrived at the point of pretending that they never said all those things about going out guns blazing.

Many religious fanatics talk about going out with guns blazing. That doesn’t mean that they do.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:40 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

One dead person out of six armed people is striving for zero.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:40 PM on January 26, 2016 [19 favorites]

Drop a giant bulletproof tarp on the vehicle and pump some incapacitating gas in.

Was this a serious suggestion?
posted by dirigibleman at 8:42 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Many religious fanatics talk about going out with guns blazing. That doesn’t mean that they do.

But it does guide how you go about arresting them.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:43 PM on January 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

> Many religious fanatics talk about going out with guns blazing. That doesn’t mean that they do.


Guns guns guns guns guns. You pick one up and people take you much more seriously. If you want "going out with guns blazing" to remain a metaphor, you don't actually carry around a loaded gun.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:43 PM on January 26, 2016 [24 favorites]

Many religious fanatics talk about going out with guns blazing. That doesn’t mean that they do.

So we shouldn't take armed thugs who have shown a propensity towards violence at their word? Well, okay then.

The Sanders on my other shoulder says that we should strive for no bodies.

Seems like that was the point, but crazy people with guns have a tendency to derail those plans more often than not.

On preview: others said it better.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:43 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thank the local law enforcement and the FBI for taking time, and the careful handling of the situation. They gave heavily armed idealogues every consideration, every out, before moving to enforce the laws that keep us safe on both public and private land.
posted by Oyéah at 8:44 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

A big U-shaped magnet and roller skates, then. Combined with the anvil held up by the string, it would have worked.
posted by ctmf at 8:44 PM on January 26, 2016 [14 favorites]

Guns guns guns guns guns. You pick one up and people take you much more seriously. If you want “going out with guns blazing” to remain a metaphor, you don't actually carry around a loaded gun.

Again, the Freemen: lots of guns being carried around. Lots of talk. Lots of arrests. Carrying a gun and talking about going out in a hail of bullets isn’t the same as actually going out in one.

One dead person out of six armed people is striving for zero.

There’s a reason I’m not backing Sanders in the general…
posted by Going To Maine at 8:46 PM on January 26, 2016

A big U-shaped magnet and roller skates, then. Combined with the anvil held up by the string, it would have worked.

Not if it came in a box with ACME printed on the side.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:46 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

As a major stockholder in ACME Corp., I would be totally FOR giant bulletproof tarps and incapacitating gases.

(Edit: only by SECONDS Zombieflanders - SECONDS - you hear!)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:46 PM on January 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

Cause them to stop along the highway with a big pile of bullets with a sign over it that says, "Free Gun Seed." Then spring the trap.
posted by Drinky Die at 8:47 PM on January 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Look it just makes sense that it's too dangerous to arrest these guys with conventional means. Maybe we should have just let them overthrow the government?
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:48 PM on January 26, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm just asking hypotheticals here.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:48 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you want a 2nd amendment then shit like this is going to happen. Suck it up.

It is, in fact, one of the least hideous things that have happened as a result of the 2nd amendment.
posted by Artw at 8:48 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Carrying a gun and talking about going out in a hail of bullets isn’t the same as actually going out in one.

This is true, which makes it unfortunate that we have not yet trained LEO to be telepathic.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:48 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

So we shouldn't take armed thugs who have shown a propensity towards violence at their word? Well, okay then.

What does that mean in this context? Of course you take them at their word - how could you not? It simply means that their word is just a possibility, and one that can (hopefully) be avoided.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:48 PM on January 26, 2016

Drop a giant bulletproof tarp on the vehicle and pump some incapacitating gas in.

Was this a serious suggestion?

It was pulled out of my butt to say that we should be better at doing these things.

Yes. It's better than Wako, but it's not good enough.

And I don't know... is it over?


And as to who's been watching too many action movies, well that's exactly what I say to you.
posted by Trochanter at 8:49 PM on January 26, 2016

Carrying a gun and talking about going out in a hail of bullets isn’t the same as actually going out in one.

This may be true, but it certainly decreases any empathy I might feel for them and their self-selected ending.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:49 PM on January 26, 2016

zombieflanders: "An invisible, 100% noiseless helicopter? A stealth drone that can also carry a large, extremely heavy tarp?"

Wiley is on it.
posted by Mitheral at 8:51 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I do feel for LaVoy Finicum's widow. Her husband took off for this thing, the foster children she was caring for were taken from her, and now she has nothing. That's a sad state of affairs to find yourself in when you are in your 50s.
posted by hippybear at 8:52 PM on January 26, 2016 [25 favorites]

It's going to be really interesting to see how the group back at the refuge HQ are going to react. Main leaders arrested, one dead, some new guy acting all "I'm the leader now", and the realization that they may, in fact, wind up dead...

A few more days of no federal action may be all that this takes for the collapse.

Then many many arrests, and much, much jail time.
posted by Windopaene at 8:52 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

You didn't read my Superman comment before you made your bulletproof tarp comment, did you?
posted by yhbc at 8:52 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Santilli was one of the arrested? Hah, his Youtube stream chat was already batshit nuts, I bet they're out of their minds with fear and rage right now.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:53 PM on January 26, 2016

Personal responsibility, everyone. Personal responsibility.
posted by Artw at 8:53 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Halp.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:58 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Carrying a gun and talking about going out in a hail of bullets isn’t the same as actually going out in one.

This may be true, but it certainly decreases any empathy I might feel for them and their self-selected ending.

Well, sure. This isn’t (at least to me) about feeling sympathy for the terrorists. This is about what feeling sympathy for the state and us as its members. Which is silly, but there you have it.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:59 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Don't you see? Personal responsibility is for kids walking home in their own neighborhood with Skittles and fruit drinks. It's definitely not for guys carrying around loaded semi-automatic rifles in an area that they have taken by force and shouted about how violent they're gonna be for the better part of a month.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:00 PM on January 26, 2016 [18 favorites]

It was pulled out of my butt to say that we should be better at doing these things.

OK. Well. In the real world pumping incapacitating gas into a building resulted in 170 deaths, including 133 hostages when it was last tried. There is no method of dealing with militants that doesn't carry a significant risk of death.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:01 PM on January 26, 2016 [17 favorites]

>Halp

Well Fry survived ! He seems to be lost in wingnuttery still and not even the current events (surprisingly to me anyway) appear to have given him that wake up call. In that link he is calling for people to send him weapons - step up from snacks certainly.
I hope he gets a Penitentiary with a good Pshrink.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:04 PM on January 26, 2016

And how about not turning him into a martyr? How about that part.


Look at that video posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear. Listen to what the story is already. Shot three times while kneeling. That's the story already.
posted by Trochanter at 9:04 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

The story from the terrorists back at the training camp, broadcast on their official propaganda channel. Not sure how the FBI is supposed to stop them from releasing another recruitment video before the rest of them are taken into custody or otherwise. You think their propaganda would've been less slanted if all 6 terrorists were apprehended alive?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:10 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

> And how about not turning him into a martyr? How about that part.

Why didn't they just surrender? Why did they make threats while armed? Why did they provoke the authorities? Why did they antagonize the local law enforcement and civilian community? Why is it that these kinds of questions only seem to ever be aimed at unarmed people walking down a street, not occupying a damn thing.

(Also, why is that video just a blank black screen? That's all I see.)
posted by rtha at 9:10 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sometimes you've just got to stop indulging the wackos.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:11 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Also, why is that video just a blank black screen? That's all I see.)

me too
posted by Trochanter at 9:11 PM on January 26, 2016

Look at that video posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear. Listen to what the story is already. Shot three times while kneeling. That's the story already.

And? There would have been a timecube-lizard people-agenda-21 version of events no matter what happened. These people are insane.

It is highly doubtful that the FBI went in to kill the Bundyites on purpose. If that's what they wanted, they would have just stormed the refuge on day 1. Or they could have killed everyone in the car today. They didn't.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:12 PM on January 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Pro tip: If someone you are with uses "spy planes" and refers to their you tube postings as "transmissions" in the same sentence, it's probably time to back away slowly...
posted by Windopaene at 9:12 PM on January 26, 2016 [15 favorites]

And how about not turning him into a martyr? How about that part.

For all we know about how this went down - which is nothing - not turning him into a martyr may very well have meant dead FBI agents.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:13 PM on January 26, 2016

How could that not be the story? Under what circumstances, preferably based on words and behavior we have seen so far, was this going to end with nobody getting hurt?

Not sure how you expected the FBI to prevent the nut jobs from immediately fitting any hostility into their fantasy world.
posted by ctmf at 9:13 PM on January 26, 2016

While we're at it, why don't we call Batman to apprehend all of ISIS alive?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:13 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

On what basis do you assert that this was poorly planned and executed? As in actual facts.

From the start, this whole thing - allowing them resupply, not putting up roadblocks until now, then suddenly coming in strength. It's not really a coherent narrative or plan,

It's a plan that worked.

Putting up a roadblock would have given them a hate object to fight against, and would have reinforced their 'heroes oppressed' narrative. And it would have meant 1) ceding the initiative and letting the armed anti-government militants pick the next move which would have involved them either menacing people with firearms or them shooting people or 2) the feds pumping shots into a blockade-running pickup or something.

We know have the roadblock, but we pulled off a bunch of the leaders with only one death.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:14 PM on January 26, 2016

Trump's going to kick ISIS' ass, so we don't need that vigilante, the Batman
posted by Windopaene at 9:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

(Also, why is that video just a blank black screen? That's all I see.)

Nutjob trying to practice 'operational security'?
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:16 PM on January 26, 2016

And how about not turning him into a martyr? How about that part.

"There is no method of dealing with militants that doesn't carry a significant risk of death."
posted by dirigibleman at 9:19 PM on January 26, 2016

the real question is how many allies in other places these bums have and what they're going to do
posted by pyramid termite at 9:21 PM on January 26, 2016

Do I feel sorry for these guys? Yes, in a way. I don’t think they are radicals fighting for a cause they believe in, I think they are delusional disturbed people who couldn’t really see the consequences of their actions. They’re children playing dress up who got way in over their heads.

But they’re also adults who have to take responsibility for their actions. They had many chances to get out of this safely and didn’t take them.

The least worst course of action was taken and the outcome was better than I expected.
posted by bongo_x at 9:22 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I do wonder about the Grant County sheriff. If he was at the roadblock, his world just went sideways...
posted by Windopaene at 9:23 PM on January 26, 2016

Is there a message board these type of guys are known to gravitate to, like a Red State or 4chan? I'm curious what the temperature is.
posted by ctmf at 9:29 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

There was mention of hundreds at John Day with pro and counter. Sounded like high potential for loss of life. Ammon Bundy told a tale to his wife, of Finicum's death, that has become truth. Truth or not. I doubt the FBI executed Finicum as described. Didn't happen.
posted by Oyéah at 9:31 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm imagining a militant clutching an enormous purple dildo as he takes position behind a 55 gallon drum of lube.
posted by ryanrs at 9:32 PM on January 26, 2016

If you want a vision of the wingnut militant future, imagine a dildo laughing at a human face - forever.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:35 PM on January 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

Outside a FBI negotiator is yelling over a bullhorn "Is this really how you want to go out? Cold, scared, and slippery?"
posted by ryanrs at 9:36 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is there a message board these type of guys are known to gravitate to, like a Red State or 4chan? I'm curious what the temperature is.

It's more like Facebook and Topix under their real names. Maybe twitter. We're not generally dealing with L33T Hack3rs here.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:36 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

T.D. Strange: Is there a message board these type of guys are known to gravitate to, like a Red State or 4chan? I'm curious what the temperature is.

JJ MacNab has a sample for you. assessment: not good.
posted by bluecore at 9:39 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm imagining a militant clutching an enormous purple dildo as he takes position behind a 55 gallon drum of lube.

Outside a FBI negotiator is yelling over a bullhorn "Is this really how you want to go out? Cold, scared, and slippery?"

"You can have my dildo when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!
...
...
...
Hey, do you have any snacks?"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:39 PM on January 26, 2016

If you can stomach it, a ton of RWNJs are posting on the #oregonstandoff hashtag on Twitter. One of them, I kid you not, just posted a quote by FRED HAMPTON: "You can kill a revolutionary but you can never kill the revolution."

Irony is dead.
posted by suelac at 9:40 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Patton Oswalt: Ammon Bundy stares from the back of a police van. Will his cause be remembered? A heron glides through the moonlight, clutching a dildo.
posted by bluecore at 9:42 PM on January 26, 2016 [16 favorites]

I'm so glad that these dangerous men were arrested. Also grateful that no innocent bystanders or officers were injured in the arrest. You have violent, armed men who have been talking for 20 days about how they don't respect federal authority and are going to seize public property with their guns and moon law. It's a miracle no one else has been hurt.

Also: absolutely disgusted by the speculation a few hours ago about how law enforcement set this up or somehow caused this to happen. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking that.
posted by Nelson at 9:45 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

The shooting may have been an error or not, but I doubt it went down the way the Bundys are selling, because it's unlikely there would have been only one death if they were shooting the unresisting. Three shots, one death and one minor injury is a fairly controlled shooting that suggests there was a very specific reason and person they felt they had to shoot.
posted by tavella at 9:54 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

No reason for the Feds to execute exactly one of them if they were intent on assassination...
posted by BungaDunga at 9:55 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

The shooting may have been an error or not, but I doubt it went down the way the Bundys are selling, because it's unlikely there would have been only one death if they were shooting the unresisting.

Worth noting that the ludicrous execution story is third hand. Ammon Bundy to his wife, his wife to (Nevada state Assemblywoman) Michele Fiore, Fiore to reporters.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:00 PM on January 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

And the story is changing depending on who is telling: Some say he was shot in the chest, some in his face, some say he was on the ground, face down.
posted by mochapickle at 10:03 PM on January 26, 2016

Yes, it's often hard to keep your lies straight on repetition.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:05 PM on January 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I wouldn't put it past the Bundys to just make this shit up to try and incite an uprising.
posted by wuwei at 10:09 PM on January 26, 2016

So is Fiore a known idiot?
posted by Artw at 10:09 PM on January 26, 2016

Yeah the shooting story is reported from Michele Fiore, who apparently heard it from Bundy's wife, who heard it from Bundy calling her while in the back of a squad car. Because I'm sure they let Bundy call someone from the back of the squad while in handcuffs during a sensitive LE operation.
posted by localhuman at 10:10 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Joint Statement by the FBI and Oregon State Police on Law Enforcement Activity Near Burns, Oregon
posted by Trochanter at 10:10 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

So is Fiore a known idiot?

/Googles it.

Oh boy, and then some.
posted by Artw at 10:13 PM on January 26, 2016

So is Fiore a known idiot?

You judge
posted by phoque at 10:13 PM on January 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

So is Fiore a known idiot?

Well, she once expressed a strong desire to personally shoot Syrian refugees in the head.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:14 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bundy hopes to light a fire with lies. Instead he causes pain to the family of a dead man, and maligns law enforcement who spent a long, cold, January putting up with their threats. The Oregon occupiers are not good people, Cliven Bundy is a poor role model. I hope things go back to peaceful.
posted by Oyéah at 10:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fiore also thinks cancer is a fungus and can be cured with baking soda.

So, maybe not the most reliable source.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:15 PM on January 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'd also think a warrior like Lavoy would have been proud to go out in a blaze of gunfire rather than on his knees, cooperating.
posted by localhuman at 10:18 PM on January 26, 2016

So they'll be revoking their "Cold Dead Hands" bumper stickers, huh? Such tough guys. Just glad they didn't kill a bunch of locals or FBI. This time.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:22 PM on January 26, 2016

Watching the backvideo on Santilli's live feed. (I know, I know.)

So: It's dark out. He's in the car with a woman and a man, and he's heading back to the refuge to pick people up. He talks with Blaine to put Blaine in charge, ("Blaine, Blaine, man, don't do this to me, argh"). I get the sense that people are exasperated by Blaine. While talking to Blaine, he gets word from the woman riding with him that Fox News says four have been arrested. He then hears more news, freaks out, and refuses to repeat it. Santilli laments that there are women and children in the compound and he wants to get them out.

He then decides to go talk to Lt. Needham. His cell phone says 6:14 pm. "Oh my god. Ugh. Blaine. I swear, I love him like a brother."

He stops at a blockade in the road. Concrete wedges and floodlights. He gets out of the car. Whoever's left in the car keeps filming but has a shaky hand. Santilli doesn't come back. (He was arrested at 6:30.)

Car pulls up to the motel. Someone walks in to their room with the camera. The woman whispers, "How do I turn this off?" She's sighing. "You know what's really strange, everyone, is that I really don't know what to say." She puts the camera down in the corner of the room and it runs for another two hours.

It's still running as I write this -- just the sounds of a muffled TV.
posted by mochapickle at 10:29 PM on January 26, 2016 [7 favorites]

"along with the original ranch stuff that started all this."

I have never liked ranch. Give me good ballistic, I mean balsamic, any month.
posted by Oyéah at 10:30 PM on January 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also as far as a prominent message board ... they don't seem to do well in group discussions. There are many group fractures and interpersonal bickering. There is a lot of taking their ball and going it alone and paranoia, so they seem to each build their own enclave and broadcast out. Blog, Facebook, YouTube. But for a taste comments Oathkeepers or Western Rifle Shooters Association may give you what you are looking for.
posted by phoque at 10:33 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Man, that Oathkeepers link is like a fractal lens into crazy.
posted by Archelaus at 10:39 PM on January 26, 2016

My above links are more neutral to supportive.

Bundy Ranch Facebook is straight freak out.
posted by phoque at 10:42 PM on January 26, 2016

No shit. Way off the scale on the crazy-meter
posted by Windopaene at 10:43 PM on January 26, 2016

Here's Fiore's Christmas card. She's the one in the middle.

I would take her account of the shooting with a grain of salt.
posted by JackFlash at 10:56 PM on January 26, 2016

Really curious to see how everything unfolds as more information is disclosed... I'm honestly surprised that nobody has linked to the breaking news handbook yet. It's too early to know if this was a purely self-defensive shooting, which is really the best we can hope for when someone has been shot. I'm not going to condemn any of the FBI agents for the death, because I do not know enough to do so... There's a way that this shooting could have played out that seems very likely, but the dynamics of this really lend themselves to a degree of unpredictability. My gut ultimately says that this was well justified, because I find it hard to believe that it would play out otherwise, but more information will remove the need for gut feelings.

I'm not considering this over until there is nobody occupying the refuge anymore. We know more about those who were arrested than we do those who remain, so they are complete wildcards at the moment- wildcards who don't have much more to go on than speculation themselves, and who are largely closed to outside communication. That could go very bad - I personally think it's pretty unlikely that these guys are just going to walk out of the refuge, or give themselves up, given the self-reinforcing company they have kept. But, anything can happen, and I'm always going to hope for peaceful resolution.

All that being said, I'm still curious to see what kind of legal defense these guys come up with, given their beliefs - I'd love to be a fly on the wall in those proceedings.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:09 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, definitely not over yet - Convoy w armored vehicles are leaving from where the airport is.

If that's coming from bend, they are about 2 hours away if you drive normally - which means this could get ugly very very soon.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:13 PM on January 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ryan Haas of OPB is in contact with one of the militants still at the Refuge.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:11 AM on January 27, 2016

Aww jeez... I was really hoping Fry wasn't going to unravel quite as hard as he was obviously capable of. He's like a radicalized golden retriever puppy.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:43 AM on January 27, 2016

Fry's livestreaming now. Claims they're surrounded.
posted by honestcoyote at 12:53 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

He is now walking around the Refuge with a livecam on YouTube. I... I am not going to link to it.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:55 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wall Street Journal reporting, article requires sign in but accessible via Google search;
Law-enforcement officials familiar with the matter said the incident took place as Mr. Bundy and a handful of other leaders were driving to a public event nearby. Agents with the FBI stopped the vehicle, at which point one of the individuals in the vehicle pulled out a weapon, the people familiar with the incident said.

At that point, FBI agents fired. The individual who was brandishing the weapon suffered fatal injuries, officials said.

This is a good rundown of compound communications;
Militia Radio Frequencies
posted by phoque at 12:58 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wow, that sure is an odd site to read during a bout of insomnia, phoque. With lines like, "Whether paired with sidearms or long guns, accessories add flair to the look and feel of battle-rattle gear. Accessories really make the outfit." I wonder whether it is poking fun at these people, but the aesthetic choice of blurring out every single face in every single picture leans me more towards true-believer militia lunatic. Either way, I guess it should be reassuring that these nice folks haven't figured out encryption and think keeping their channel "secret" is adequate.
posted by indubitable at 2:34 AM on January 27, 2016

Looks like the FBI's setting up roadblocks, and has a news conference planned for 10:30 AM local (about eight hours from now).
posted by Archelaus at 2:44 AM on January 27, 2016

I know on a moral level I shouldn't be watching David melt down, but he's lost it. "Yeshua is Christ" he chants... The scary thing is the other people who seem prepared to die for their cause.

Frankly, I'm surprised the FBI managed to pull off the operation so far without further loss of life.
posted by mikelieman at 3:02 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow, that sure is an odd site to read during a bout of insomnia, phoque. With lines like, "Whether paired with sidearms or long guns, accessories add flair to the look and feel of battle-rattle gear. Accessories really make the outfit." I wonder whether it is poking fun at these people, but the aesthetic choice of blurring out every single face in every single picture leans me more towards true-believer militia lunatic. Either way, I guess it should be reassuring that these nice folks haven't figured out encryption and think keeping their channel "secret" is adequate.

That page is survivalist-preppers, and consider the militants to be silly bunnies, it seems.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:20 AM on January 27, 2016

Oathkeeper Melvin Lee (who has been in Burns since the march for the Hammonds) got information from one of his friends (Mark McConnell) who was in the convoy, saw the shooting, got detained but released. Describes Lavoy as charging the police (this is someone very sympathetic to the cause and visited the refuge on a number of occasions) facebook video.

Mark McConnell who gave the account posted a video but doesn't go into the circumstances just calls it tragic.

David Fry got himself a twitter account.
posted by phoque at 3:20 AM on January 27, 2016

And this news report indicates that there was no cell reception specifically where the stops went down because of the regions geography (described as a canyon).
posted by phoque at 3:27 AM on January 27, 2016

Fry is showing off a borrowed gun on his livestream, apologizing for not being able to return it, and hoping the Feds give it back to its owner after taking it off his corpse. He's pretty much ready to die there.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:42 AM on January 27, 2016

Mark McConnell couldn't sleep so makes video and gives version of what happened.
posted by phoque at 4:43 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have some sympathy for the gun nuts and racists and right wingers who find weasely reasons to sort of defend or not quite condemn or feel a little sorry for these armed terrorists because they're white pretending to be cowboys/soldiers/patriots/good guys with guns and they hate Obummer and Muslims and the Federal Government too, maybe not to the point of taking up arms but definitely to the point of finding excuses for the poor angry welfare cowboys who have lost the only way of life they've ever known living high in the saddle driving them little dogies across the open range and getting disability checks to cover the snacks, yeehaw.

It must be really hard to deal with the cognitive dissonance of seeing a white guy in a cowboy hat with a pocket constitution at the ready and a 9mm on display lying dead on the side of the road for resisting arrest and threatening a cop. He was just a good guy with a gun, for a terrorist anyway.

And then I remember what those people mostly had to say about Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Michael Brown, and so many others, law and order you know, a cop has a right to defend him/herself if s/he feels any sense of threat, and hey the perp was reaching for something, too bad so sad law and order must prevail, thin blue line yadda yadda.
posted by spitbull at 5:05 AM on January 27, 2016 [15 favorites]

Drop a giant bulletproof tarp on the vehicle and pump some incapacitating gas in. Something. We couldn't outwit these bozos and keep them alive?

Tarp-Man, undone by a tarp? As if.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:11 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

When are the authorities going to arrest Cliven Bundy?
posted by grouse at 5:23 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Has anyone called Finicum a "thug" yet?
posted by spitbull at 5:26 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

David Fry got himself a twitter account.

He hasn't posted anything in the past three hours. With any luck, he's in custody.

I have to think the Feds are still in a bit of a bind with what to do at the refuge, given the state of mind the crowd out there must be in right now. I can't see them making a charge on the place, even now. It'll probably be another case of "wait them out". Maybe with an added dose of "no supplies coming in" this time?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:35 AM on January 27, 2016

He's not in custody. Still live streaming. Well, not right this second. Feed just cut out again.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:37 AM on January 27, 2016

He did that during a manic high and break in streams, but now trying to stream hard.

The sad thing about him is the reason he is out there (aside from his mental state) is he was busted for smoking pot and not wearing a life jacket (he was on a river at the time apparently). Then he didn't pay the fine, got his license suspended and did 30 days in jail. He was facing additional time so ran to Oregon.
Video of him burning payment notice
His comment;
have had enough of their shit. served 30 days in jail for obstruction of justice and driving under suspension that stemmed from this marijuana charge. I was driving to community service but I didn't have my paper on me saying I had driving privileges. although the judge gave me them to go to work and community service. cop didn't believe me. telling me he was going to tow my car, issue a fine for DUS. all he had to do was make a phone call to the court and confirm the privileges. he didn't want to. so I got upset and showed him my disrespect.

And a second bill burning similar to the first but with more about life jacket tyranny.
posted by phoque at 5:57 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope the feds have good video to show what happened. Already, Finnicum is being hailed as a martyr.
posted by theora55 at 5:59 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

For the sake of justice, I also hope there's good video documentation of what happened. That said, I have zero belief that any such video will change how he's portrayed by the militia nuts. He died fighting the evil feds, and so he's going to be a martyr from now till the end of time no matter what facts come to light.
posted by tocts at 6:12 AM on January 27, 2016

When are the authorities going to arrest Cliven Bundy?

Should be today. Statue of limitations hasn't run out from 2014, and he's arguably been engaged in a continuous conspiracy as well. Round them all up.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:31 AM on January 27, 2016

Man, that livestream is chilling. Too dark to make out anything, some guy telling the "Lavoy was murdered and unarmed" story and declaring that civil war has just broken out, rather be dead than living in this America. I'm afraid there will be more blood.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:40 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's depressing just how deeply lost in their fantasy-horror world these people are. The level of active, unrelenting oppression they believe is going on in the country is truly the stuff of a mass psychotic break. That they have stockpiles of weapons makes it even more terrifying.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:46 AM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

From the Livestream, just now: "There's going to be a shootout here. They better kill me now [unintelligible] because I'm gonna hunt them down."

Holy fuck.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:49 AM on January 27, 2016

Someone just walked into the frame and said "Hey guys, can I get you to sign these talent releases?" Someone replies "Like for a movie?" or "Is this for a movie?" just before another person rushes up to the camera and cuts the feed.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:52 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Thing is, unless there is some violence at the roadblocks set up leading in to the refuge, I doubt anyone will come for the remaining holed up terrorists. If their calls for support start to get heeded by the crazy lone wolf patriots who want to be martyrs, then they'll get shut down, but until then? They can stream, posture, and chat with reddit trolls all they like.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:54 AM on January 27, 2016

I can't watch this at the moment. It's not that I want to watch these guys torn up by a hail of federal bullets, but I do hope someone is recording this stream (other than the FBI).
posted by Evstar at 6:55 AM on January 27, 2016

This YouTube channel has the feeds. You'll have to search through them for the current live feed. It also has stored video of the previous streams.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:56 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

New(?) livestream up. Looks like they're planning some sort of propaganda video.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:57 AM on January 27, 2016

For anyone catching up, here's a couple of mainstream news articles on the arrests. NYTimes: Ammon Bundy and 7 Others Held in Oregon; LaVoy Finicum Is Reported Dead. WashPo: Authorities seal off Oregon refuge after leaders of occupation arrested. 1 killed in gunfire. Also WashPo: LaVoy Finicum, Ore. occupier who said he’d rather die than go to jail did just that, should you hold any belief in the elaborate conspiracy theories that are being spun up.

So now there's a standoff at the refuge. This is the consequence of the fed's approach to coddling the seditionists, the risk we've been discussing and worrying about for a couple of weeks now. The Bundy core are bad people but seemed rational, or at least predictable. Some of the hangers-on that joined the occupation later seem outright crazy, and are currently talking dangerously crazy on livestream. I think the best outcome at this point is a proper blockade and hope that they get bored or hungry or cold or sleepy enough to be arrested safely. I wonder how many innocent hostages are being held inside the refuge? I have to think not everyone there is a jihadi looking forward to his martyrdom.

Still I'm glad the FBI finally acted, and with a mostly good outcome so far. They did pretty much exactly what some of us have been calling for in this discussion. Arrest the leaders when they're travelling, then blockade the refuge. It's the safest possible solution to the problem.
posted by Nelson at 6:57 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm Canadian. I have absolutely no stake in this, but it is fascinating.
posted by Evstar at 6:58 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just talked about refreshing the Tree of Liberty with blood, taking out the "the guy who shot Lavoy."
posted by zombieflanders at 7:01 AM on January 27, 2016

This DefendYourbase stream is live. Lots of quotable craziness. He did say that the kids are all gone from the compound.
posted by achrise at 7:02 AM on January 27, 2016

Someone on the livestream was urging supporters to kill cops:

"So here we are, waiting for more Three Percenters, more patriots, more freedom lovers, to come from all over the United States, because this is [unintelligible] fucking war. There is no more law. So, if people are afraid to go because what if they pull me over, shoot or kill them."

They're literally telling their supporters to kill any cop who pulls them over. These people are completely out of touch with reality.
posted by compartment at 7:02 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Every time I see a headline that reads similar to "LaVoy Finicum, Ore. occupier who said...", I try to remind myself that Finicum was NOT from Oregon, but was from Arizona.
posted by hippybear at 7:04 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I would think that the officer who shot Lavoy won't be participating in the standoff. Hopefully his mental well-being is being tended to. Doubtful any of the officers wanted to kill a man yesterday.
posted by Evstar at 7:04 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Someone just walked into the frame and said "Hey guys, can I get you to sign these talent releases?" Someone replies "Like for a movie?" or "Is this for a movie?" just before another person rushes up to the camera and cuts the feed.

There is some kind of journalist or documentarian in there. Maybe Vice?
posted by Drinky Die at 7:04 AM on January 27, 2016

The YouTube livestream comments are mostly insane but there's some pretty funny stuff in the flotsam. People are having fun with the "talent release" business. But my favorite was when one of the terrorists started to sing something and a commenter wrote "now you've done it, the RIAA is going to be all up in your grill!"
posted by spitbull at 7:06 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Some portions of this armed insurrection are muted due to a copyright claim"
posted by Drinky Die at 7:07 AM on January 27, 2016 [13 favorites]

There is some kind of journalist or documentarian in there. Maybe Vice?

Turns out everyone left are Vice documentarians, gonzo journalists, and undercover Feds.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:07 AM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]

Oh, and one REALLY AGGRESSIVE bird watcher who is like NOW IS MY CHANCE
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:08 AM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]

I wonder how many innocent hostages are being held inside the refuge?

Pretty much everyone fled as soon as the arrests happened. There are currently 7 or 8 people remaining to stand hard (just my estimate I should add).
posted by phoque at 7:10 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's insane that these people can walk around, loaded for bear, spouting conspiracy nonsense, advocating for the violent overthrow of the US government, and calling for the outright killing of any law enforcement in their way, and then go full-tilt berserk when law enforcement actually dares to use force against them.

It's certainly an interesting study in group-reinforcement of insanity, though. sadly, there aren't enough meds in the world to help these nutjobs.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:11 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

The link achrise posted is an old feed, not live. I don't see a current live feed.

Belay that, here it is.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:11 AM on January 27, 2016

How on earth is "women and children" a phrase people still use.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:12 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

Eyewitnesses knock down conspiracy theories about LaVoy Finicum dying with his hands up

Story contains three eyewitness videos denying current Finicum "murder" nonsense
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:13 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

> I hope for everyone's sake that the FBI were wearing bodycams, because "they reached for their guns, we swear" is not going to cut it in a lot of circles.

Which is just...incredibly ironic.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:15 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Raw Story (i know) reporting that LaVoy Finicum — the Oregon militant beneath the blue tarp — killed in police shootout

It was a tarp!

Santilli was one of the arrested? Hah, his Youtube stream chat was already batshit nuts, I bet they're out of their minds with fear and rage right now.

He's a weasel in a cage. Oh, Pete, it's a long fall from CNBC studios, isn't it?
posted by octobersurprise at 7:19 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Fry live feed is almost too sad to watch :(

Minutes of him wandering around his "post" clad in a blanket, face unwashed, scraggly long hair unbound and staring into the camera making faces and comments that so very obviously only belong in a psych ward. Perhaps the Bundy's biggest crime is getting schmucks like this to die for them while they give up and go to prison - alive.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:20 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Which is just...incredibly ironic.

The whole "white guys finally upset at a police shooting" thing is incredibly sad and ironic.
posted by happyroach at 7:22 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

I hope the lab and the beagle come out OK.
posted by spitbull at 7:22 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

Story contains three eyewitness videos denying current Finicum "murder" nonsense

Obviously, the Feds turned them. Mind control and torture, y'know. Probably by FEMA operatives. They can't be trusted anymore.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:23 AM on January 27, 2016

I'm saddened that someone died. I just can't believe how stupid the death was, from what we know so far. These guys have waving their guns around for three weeks and the FBI has been camped out in town for most of that time. So if there's a roadblock you can guess that it's not just something that the FBI just haphazardly put up. So why would anyone think that they can fight or drive their way out of it? Did LaVoy just want to die?
posted by rdr at 7:25 AM on January 27, 2016

Did LaVoy just want to die?

He stated as much to reporters, yes.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

I keep reading all these mentions about how "there aren't enough drugs to help these crazies" as suggestions that something that the authorities should be engaged in is enforced drug-induced catatonic states for anyone who disagrees with the government.

Surely that is not what is being suggested, but that is how it reads to me.
posted by hippybear at 7:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Has anyone called Finicum a "thug" yet?

He was no angel...
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:28 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

The live feed mentioned a few posts earlier contains a view of a tractor w/a shovel, an incredibly obese guy in (summer) camo, woman in (summe)r camo, Fry and someone with professional video equipment who is rumored to me making a documentary (??) and is shown occassionally doing interviews with the militants.

Occasional shouts of "Hallelujah!" and "God Bless 'Murica" (yes really, "Murica")
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:30 AM on January 27, 2016

Yeah but he never stole any cigars.
posted by spitbull at 7:30 AM on January 27, 2016

They apparently have a .50 caliber rifle (which is meant to be anti-vehicle and anti-shelter), and Fry definitely has a gun emblazoned with the Confederate battle flag.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:34 AM on January 27, 2016

Lol: "THIS IS THE MOON LANDING STUDIO!"
posted by spitbull at 7:34 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The guy who asked about talent releases is apparently an independent reporter named David Byers (sp?). A few minutes ago he said he was heading to another location and the female asked him to film a request for a friend of hers with instructions on how to dispose of their remains. He shot it and left.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:35 AM on January 27, 2016

"Several hours later, Jon Ritzheimer, a key militant leader, surrendered to police on the conspiracy charge. He gained national fame for complaining on a video about the delivery of sex toys to the refuge in response to the occupiers' plea for supplies."

"... but you fuck one sheep ..."
posted by octobersurprise at 7:35 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

OregonLive: Finicum killed while "charging police."
posted by spitbull at 7:37 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Whoever said "The revolution will not be televised" apparently never counted on YouTube or the vanity of crazy people.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:41 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I keep reading all these mentions about how "there aren't enough drugs to help these crazies"

Where are you reading that? I have some fear you're reading me, but I definitely didn't say that.

I did stick the label "crazy" on the folks still at the refuge today, reacting to comments I've seen on the livestream. I'm thinking in particular of David Fry; everything I've seen him present in public, including stuff from before the occupation, suggests to me that he is not rational. What's terribly sad is now he's part of a suicidal group that is saying they want to be shot by the FBI. I really, really hope that doesn't happen.
posted by Nelson at 7:41 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

OregonLive: Finicum killed while "charging police."

If that account is true it's pure dumb luck he didn't manage to get the other occupants of the vehicle killed as well.
posted by Artw at 7:44 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Let's hope they don't think it's a good idea to use that .50cal - You bring an anti-material rifle into this mix, and there's no way that the response is anything but overwhelming force. It's the sort of action that leads to casualties on both sides.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:46 AM on January 27, 2016

No, Nelson, that was not in response to anything you wrote.
posted by hippybear at 7:51 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

f that account is true it's pure dumb luck he didn't manage to get the other occupants of the vehicle killed as well.

Three people that were involved with the group and there say this is what happened. They're even mad that people are saying he was murdered with his hands up. I think it's fairly certain that this is what happened or at least this is what some of the militants themselves want to have happened. Lavoy pretty much gave the law no choice but to fire on him.
posted by Jalliah at 7:52 AM on January 27, 2016

I'm just thinking of all those pictures we've seen recently of vehicles with hundreds of rounds of ammunition poured into them.
posted by Artw at 8:06 AM on January 27, 2016

Ahh okay I missed seeing those pictures. Probably better to just stop my speculation until more info comes out.
posted by Jalliah at 8:10 AM on January 27, 2016

Oh, I meant in other cases where police have dealt with moving vehicles.
posted by Artw at 8:11 AM on January 27, 2016

I'm just thinking of all those pictures we've seen recently of vehicles with hundreds of rounds of ammunition poured into them.

The FBI tends to get agents who are more circumspect about all emptying their clips and reloading, and I'm willing to bet that they all knew exactly how much coverage this would get, as opposed to some local cop with much less training, experience, education, etc.
posted by Etrigan at 8:12 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh, I meant in other cases where police have dealt with moving vehicles.

Gotcha. I'm sneak reading this thread at work so it doesn't have my full on focus to keep it all straight.
posted by Jalliah at 8:14 AM on January 27, 2016

On the newest live feed someone referred to as "Gunner" (possibly the 50 cal operator??) comes in view and mentions "convoys are 30 minutes away" . Unclear if they feel these are reinforcements or not. Also Gunner acts as if he is on some really strong meth.

Oregon public radio just tweeted that they are pulling away from the refuge as they feel it is "unsafe"

Camo woman mentions "There are several women still here"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:17 AM on January 27, 2016

The clowns are talking about a "convoy" coming in and "30 minutes out."

Right now they are discussing how "they have to pardon us, the American people will make 'em." Freaking delusional to the last. But it suggests they aren't really planning to die. We'll see how that works out.
posted by spitbull at 8:18 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Damn, now they've got Rubber Duck, Pigpen, and Sodbuster mixed up in all this?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:22 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's the second American Revolution.
posted by Jalliah at 8:24 AM on January 27, 2016

Fry just came on video , picked up a portable UPS supply and states "A lot of these I think are dead" . Sadly ironic :(

Obese camo guy is making statements like "It's on now" and "A lot of people are going to end up dead" and "We got God" and "This is the Second American Revolution, we are going to be in history" to someone on the phone.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:24 AM on January 27, 2016

Ha I know that beeping sound all too well. The UPS unit powering the livestream has a battery is on its last legs.
posted by spitbull at 8:25 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

To his mom, apparently. Chewing her ear off with slogans, while I'm guessing a lot of more practical concern coming from her end and then getting talked back over.

Then some other guy wandered up and spoiled the mood by jocularly discussing the weather.

And yeah, amidst Fry's check in on the power situation he seems to have knocked the angle on the camera up so that now a dull static shot is a dull static badly-framed shot of mostly sky and CAT.

Every time I end up watching a live stream of something weird I am reminded how strange the future is.
posted by cortex at 8:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Technically, it'd be the Third American Revolution. The Confederate States of America claimed the banner of Second American Revolution.

In truth, they don't even represent a rebellion in the sense of the Whiskey Rebellion. They are simply one more footnote in a text.
posted by Atreides at 8:30 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

So turns out that the arrests were actually well-planned and -executed, and the one death was due entirely to the terrorist pulling out his gun.

I'd be fascinated to know how the FBI was supposed to stop him from drawing a weapon.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:33 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Did you not see the post above about bulletproof tarps???
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:36 AM on January 27, 2016 [16 favorites]

Also, tranquilizer darts. Lots of them. Clearly the feds should have just ceded jurisdiction to MeFi.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:39 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Or Oliver Queen.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:41 AM on January 27, 2016

"no, we ain't got time to mess with all these beans"
posted by pyramid termite at 8:42 AM on January 27, 2016

MagicTarps would not have worked! Those are water based Pokemon. Clearly, a Psyduck or other psychic type is needed.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:43 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

How on earth is "women and children" a phrase people still use.

I did, it was a mistake, (I thought about it, but the thread was moving fast and didn't want to edit it to greatly once I hit post and the two groups (lumped together) seemed to be of particular concern, demeaning as it is). I understand women have agency (and as much right to seize land as anyone) and minors don't. So should have just said "kept the shooting away from uninvolved parties". I'll be more mindful.
posted by phoque at 8:43 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

New militia rallying cry: "Hands up. Don't shoot."
#VanillaISISLivesMatter
posted by Evilspork at 8:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Do we know whether the pregnant woman referenced in last night's "no born children" video is still at the refuge? As much as these jackasses have made their own beds here, I'd love to avoid the whole ZOMG-FEDS-MURDERING-OUR-FETUS-BABIES!!1! narrative.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:51 AM on January 27, 2016

This stream is running. They got the CAT going
posted by achrise at 8:54 AM on January 27, 2016

Ammon Bundy did not witness the shootout. So he made painful propaganda. Only a local man, and an eighteen year old girl, who were on the ground cuffed, saw the firefight. With their truck stuck in snow Finicum and Ryan Bundy argued about what to do. Finicum charged the police, the state police.

I wonder who the girl was? Finicum's wife had just been up for his birthday, but went home again. Was the girl local or did she come up from Cane Beds?

Both the local and the girl were released.
posted by Oyéah at 8:54 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Live stream is back, camera angle still terrible, watching CAT shovel spinning around but not clear what if anything it's doing. Sloganing-at-mom guy now back and shouting far too loudly into the mic about the media being cowards and they're comin' to murder us, etc, etc; then other guy (jocular weather guy, I think) leans in to sing an improvised COPS theme "...what you...gonna do, what you gonna do when...the militia come for you...Efff Bee Eyyeeeeeee..."
posted by cortex at 8:55 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

in New live feed obese camo guy is yelling completely, absolutely insanely into the camera at the American people ("THIS IS A FREE FOR ALL ARMEGEDDON!!!") . HE is calling for reinforcements and mass killings and it's crazy

Someone is in the CAT moving the shovel-scopper thingie wildly about for unknown reasons.

The crazy just went to DefCon I
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:56 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

> watching CAT shovel spinning around but not clear what if anything it's doing

try hitting the space bar, maybe that's the command to make it stop spinning
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:58 AM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

It is amazing to watch how people ramp themselves and each other up with their inflated rhetoric. It can be so easy to become a legend in your own mind.

Truly, truly unhinged people.
posted by Miko at 8:59 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

not clear what if anything it's doing

Burning up a lot of fuel, for one thing. I'd guess they're trying to build some sort of barricade.

The big guy is threatening a "bloodbath." Are they preparing some sort of last stand? he seems frustrated that the reinforcement militias from all over the country haven't arrived yet. A lot of "ya better get here!" You might want to just wait and plan to heat 'em up some leftovers, friend.
posted by Miko at 9:01 AM on January 27, 2016

Watching the livestream I can't decide whether to be amused or appalled.
I'm going with appused.
posted by Floydd at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fry keeps - changing the live feed - new one here now.

They are shooting now - yes shooting. At something they see in the sky - drone? Don't know but they are shooting at it now.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

They are apparently now shooting at a drone? Four shots, "I shot it down".
posted by cortex at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2016

THE FBI IS GOING TO SHOOT PORKINS! BibleThump
posted by Talez at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2016

"There are no laws in this United States now! This is a free-for-all Armageddon!...If they stop you from getting here, KILL THEM!"

Hoo doggie.

This is where we realize why the phrase "well regulated" was inserted into that particular language.
posted by Miko at 9:02 AM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]

It occurs to me that these live feed videos will probably be studied by a great many academics in many fields for many years to come.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:04 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

The bucket loader appears to be moving a lot of tree branches and stuff. Not good barricade material, so maybe they're planning a giant fire.
posted by Miko at 9:04 AM on January 27, 2016

It is amazing to watch how people ramp themselves and each other up with their inflated rhetoric. It can be so easy to become a legend in your own mind.

I remember a guy in college who thought it would be a great idea to dress up in a Jason mask for Halloween, and using a real hatchet, jump out at people walking on a poorly lit campus path. After he was suspended, he said it had seemed like such a good idea, and he wished someone had just told him that maybe it wasn't so hot as an idea.
posted by OmieWise at 9:04 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

The CAT appears to be digging now - trenches or foxholes . Their own graves perhaps. So sad :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:05 AM on January 27, 2016

I'm at work and have the live feed on instead of my usual music. I feel like I'm in some sort of alternate reality right now.
posted by Jalliah at 9:06 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The "medias" are leaving "because the FBI wants to cover up murders."
posted by Miko at 9:06 AM on January 27, 2016

Their own graves perhaps

Yeah, I want to keep watching because it's fascinating but I'm a bit afraid of what I might see. I like it better when they're stupid and comical, not painfully self-destructive.
posted by Miko at 9:07 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

from a Vice article about the roadblock and Finicum's death:

The protester Patrick likened Finicum's death to the killing of Tamir Rice, an unarmed 12-year-old African American boy fatally shot by police outside a Cleveland recreation center in 2014.

oh good lord
posted by burgerrr at 9:07 AM on January 27, 2016

in New live feed obese camo guy is yelling completely, absolutely insanely into the camera at the American people

This is the way the world ends: not with a bang, but with an obese guy in camo screaming "FREEEEDOMMM!!!

Do we know whether the pregnant woman referenced in last night's "no born children" video is still at the refuge?

This morning's KOIN report suggests that an unknown number of people remain at the refuge. There are twitter reports that say that the Coopers have left.

Brand Thornton, one of Bundy’s supporters, said he left the refuge Monday and wasn’t sure what those remaining would do.

“The entire leadership is gone,” he told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. “I wouldn’t blame any of them for leaving.”

Thornton called the arrests “a dirty trick” by law enforcement.

Meanwhile, the Bundy's are due in Federal Court this aft. I'm wondering if they'll go full sovcit when they get before a judge.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:08 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Still waiting on my brothers! I know they're en route!"
posted by Miko at 9:09 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Don't be afraid of those roadblocks. Go up there and shoot them.... THEY are they terrorists!"
posted by mochapickle at 9:10 AM on January 27, 2016

The big guy with the gun who keeps coming back and has no mic discipline reminds me of nothing so much as some of the worse open mics I've been to.
posted by cortex at 9:11 AM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

Obese camo guy comes onscreen and states "Still waiting on my brothers. They're enroute I know. How many? Where from ? I'm not gonna say"
also
"Don't be afraid of those roadblocks. Drive up there and shoot them!"

I don't know if I feel more pity for these guys or for the defense lawyer who hopefully will be assigned to their case
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:11 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

It occurs to me that these live feed videos will probably be studied by a great many academics in many fields for many years to come.

I can't stop imagining this fresh-faced young go-getter who loves his awesome new job at the FBI. In the past year he's given several PowerPoint presentations on "leveraging social media and open-source intelligence for improved crisis management and post-hoc analysis."

This afternoon a 1400-page printout of all the livestream comments will land on his desk with a heavy thud. "Read through this," his boss will say, pointing at the thick stack of eggplant emojis, hate speech, and dildo jokes. "See if there's anything useful in there."
posted by compartment at 9:12 AM on January 27, 2016 [39 favorites]

How exactly are the reinforcements supposed to get there now that the FBI has finally barricaded the roads? Shoot their way through?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:12 AM on January 27, 2016

If these idiots don't all end up doing real jail time for the current incitement to violence, I'm gonna be very disappointed.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:12 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

They are totally gonna represent themselves. It's A Thing in this crowd.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

but with an obese guy in camo screaming "FREEEEDOMMM!!!

I believe that's WOLVERINES!!!111one!!11

And I do believe there is a drone in the sky.
posted by spitbull at 9:13 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Shoot their way through?

Of course! "This is what you've been training for! Come get some!" [quoting]
posted by Miko at 9:13 AM on January 27, 2016

Where does Sean Penn fit into all of this?
posted by Evstar at 9:14 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I wonder how much saner they'd be if someone took care of that beeping battery. It's bugging me, and I'm sitting at my dining room table with no threat of FBI invasion (as far as I know).
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:14 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think I've lost the right live feed. Can anyone relink?
posted by Jalliah at 9:15 AM on January 27, 2016

If these idiots don't all end up doing real jail time for the current incitement to violence

Forget incitement, a man actually died in the course of the conspiracy. We're talking felony murder and attempted murder of FBI agents for any of the others that went for a weapon.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:15 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Obese camo guy mentions that the woman in video is his wife
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:15 AM on January 27, 2016

PORKINS RALLYING THE TROOPS! PogChamp
posted by Talez at 9:16 AM on January 27, 2016

How exactly are the reinforcements supposed to get there now that the FBI has finally barricaded the roads?

Perhaps they're trying to use the CAT to dig a tunnel for the reinforcements?
posted by erdferkel at 9:16 AM on January 27, 2016

Jallah - current live feed
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:16 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Current livestream 12:15EST
posted by spitbull at 9:16 AM on January 27, 2016

Can we not call him porkins, please?
posted by mochapickle at 9:16 AM on January 27, 2016 [21 favorites]

"See if there's anything useful in there."

Sir, at 17:15 Zulu 01/27/16 user dank044 suggested what I believe to have been our best option to solve this peacefully: "Give that man a Snickers"
posted by achrise at 9:17 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Read through this," his boss will say, pointing at the thick stack of eggplant emojis, hate speech, and dildo jokes. "See if there's anything useful in there."

omgzwtfbbqlol: FIX CAM ANGLE, ALL WE SEE IS SKY

solasautomata: Fat man, please tell us your opinions on ladder theory and men's rights. Or scream them. That works too.

Jeff Chilton: You will receive 72 cousins in paradise.

Francisco C. Lopez: talibanjos lol

solasautomata: Arrest the camera.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:17 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, there is a lot of fat joking in the YouTube stream, fair enough as it's YouTube, but it would be nice if we could avoid punching that low.

There's something so sad about how badly they want their lives to mean something, and what a dumb-ass fgrab for meaning they have chosen.
posted by Miko at 9:18 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

Ooh, now they're calling out people by name.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:18 AM on January 27, 2016

> Ooh, now they're calling out people by name

It's like Romper Room but swearier.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:20 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Can we not call him porkins, please?

But he has an uncanny resemblance to Jek Tono Porkins.
posted by Talez at 9:20 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

"72 cousins in paradise." You are my hero!
posted by Oyéah at 9:20 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, YouTube lists the live feed's category as "Entertainment". I can't decide if that's just because of the limited number of categories, or profound insight into modern society.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:21 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Obese Camo Guy (henceforth referred to as OCG) mugging for the camera - sloganeering such things as "Gotta Represent" before he wanders off to his fate.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:22 AM on January 27, 2016

Unfortunately, I'm definitely interacting with it as entertainment. I can't really deny that. I could wait til tomorrow and read a responsible news story, but this is interesting.
posted by Miko at 9:22 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't know how YouTube finances work. How much money is my (fascinated, shameful) watching of their live stream generating for them?
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:23 AM on January 27, 2016

I don't like how YouTube doesn't let you have Twitch emoticons. FeelsBadMan

Can these guys switch to Twitch?
posted by Talez at 9:23 AM on January 27, 2016

Yeah, I want to keep watching because it's fascinating but I'm a bit afraid of what I might see.

There was a deranged guy who stopped his pickup on an LA Freeway overpass some years ago. The news camera choppers all arrived and started shooting it live. He unfurled a banner -- spray paint on a bed sheet -- that read "HMOs Are Killing Us" or similar and climbed back into his pickup and hunkered down. His dog was with him in the cab. He was up there for hours. Traffic was screwed for miles. Finally there was a lot of activity in the cab, and whoosh! The whole thing was aflame. The dog came out fast, apparently unsinged, barking at the cops arrayed on either side of the flaming pickup, skittering to and fro. Soon the dog was followed out by the guy who frantically stripped off all of his burning clothing. When he was down to his skivvies he reached into the bed of his pickup and pulled out a rifle. He ran a few paces over to the edge of overpass, propped the butt of his rifle against the wall and the pavement, placed his mouth over the end of the barrel, reached down and pulled the trigger. From the back of his head his brains and gore spurted out in an arc, like the stream from a garden hose. And then he slumped over a bit, still streaming, and the video was cut and the newscaster said, "obviously this standoff has ended tragically..."

Maybe we're fortunate the camera angle is so terrible today.
posted by notyou at 9:24 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Man off camera is telling his sweetheart she is his life. And yet he's so eager to die over something this stupid.

I hope all of them come out alive & just serve their time.
posted by mochapickle at 9:24 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm pretty sure there are laws in place that prevent youtube from paying people to livestream crimes.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:24 AM on January 27, 2016

He hasn't pushed 30s advert yet so he's made zero money.
posted by Talez at 9:26 AM on January 27, 2016

Probably not enough to replace all the fuel that bucket loader is burning through.
posted by Miko at 9:26 AM on January 27, 2016

Is there an actual technical reason why tech guy is constantly resetting the feed?
posted by Jalliah at 9:27 AM on January 27, 2016

I'm pretty sure that the last thing LEO wants is for this livestream to end. Current intel & future prosecution evidence
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is there an article yet about who is left at the occupation? It'd be nice to have someone's real name or at least a pseudonym. I'm also curious how many people left, who they were, and whether they were arrested on the way out.

This live stream is terribly compelling, and also awful. I get the feeling I'm watching because I'm hoping to see bullets and tear gas. I'm going to turn it off now. The only good that comes from it is the information it's providing to law enforcement.

I assume, I hope, that the feds will now just wait this one out. The people on the stream remind me of 9 year olds at a sleepover who got to stay up until midnight drinking soda. They'll all fall asleep soon enough.
posted by Nelson at 9:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

Is there am actual technical reason why tech guy is constantly resetting the feed?

Meth is a hell of a drug.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:27 AM on January 27, 2016

Jallah - perhaps something to do with bufferring/converting video on his end?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:28 AM on January 27, 2016

Nelson - there is no more waiting "this one out". There are drones in the air - tactical vehicles on the ground. This will end today - probably very badly :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:30 AM on January 27, 2016

Is there an actual technical reason why tech guy is constantly resetting the feed?

Earlier he said his phone has 4 gig of memory so when it is filled the stream cuts out.
posted by phoque at 9:30 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

There's something so sad about how badly they want their lives to mean something, and what a dumb-ass fgrab for meaning they have chosen.

As Camper Van Beethoven once sang "How I long for the days when you came to liberate us from boredom / From driving around from five to seven in the evening / My beloved Tania / We carry your gun deep within our hearts / For no better reason than our lives have no meaning / And we want to be on television."
posted by octobersurprise at 9:31 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Stream's back up! PogChamp
posted by Talez at 9:32 AM on January 27, 2016

New stream.
posted by Miko at 9:32 AM on January 27, 2016

Latest Live stream
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:32 AM on January 27, 2016

Different angle.

Wondering what they are digging up. Are they destroying the road?
posted by mochapickle at 9:34 AM on January 27, 2016

The CAT is digging and creating a defensive barrier. On Pauite ground. I suppose this is the least of the charges that will be brought against them should they survive.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:34 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

$5 says they're gonna end up rolling that bucket loader into a ditch.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:37 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Video commenters are pointing out that there's a person or two on top of the ridge. I'd guess it's one of the protestors standing guard, but who knows.

Now they're looking for ibuprofen.
posted by Miko at 9:37 AM on January 27, 2016

Sort of ominous watching livestream kid walk around with a .30-0-6 and a belt full of shells. What sort of encounter is he expecting? The feds are not stupid enough to get close enough to him to make that gun useful when they can drop him with an M24 from 400 yards away.

Nice prop though. Or maybe he's hoping to bag some geese.
posted by spitbull at 9:37 AM on January 27, 2016

The desire for compelling narrative — and good lord do people crave narrative — would lead from last night's encounter to a show down at the main refuge today. I'll be so impressed by the people coordinating the law enforcement response if they decide to just hold ground right now. The live feed shows how the occupiers are amped up right now and ready to die in what they assume will be a blaze of glory. So let 'em sit a while longer, let 'em get hungry and tired, let 'em get sleepy — they'll be easier to capture and fewer will die. I'd love to see the howling audience disappointed for the sake of less violence.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:38 AM on January 27, 2016 [17 favorites]

The only good that comes from it is the information it's providing to law enforcement.

And possible grounds for an insanity defense.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:39 AM on January 27, 2016

I completely agree that would be the wisest move, benito.strauss. Adrenaline rushes fade.
posted by Miko at 9:40 AM on January 27, 2016

Fry leaves in an ATV of some sort to grab some Ibuprofen and Diet Pepsi. Diet. As if the realization that counting calories really doesn't matter anymore has not sunk in at all :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:40 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

And possible grounds for an insanity defense.

John Hinckley, Jr. ruined that for everyone.
posted by Talez at 9:41 AM on January 27, 2016

As a Diet Pepsi man myself, I can sympathize. I can't stand sugar soda.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:41 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

And they've already been up all night. They will run out of food. The CAT will run out of gas.

They kept mentioning generators... Did the feds shut off the electric?
posted by mochapickle at 9:41 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is there an article yet about who is left at the occupation? It'd be nice to have someone's real name or at least a pseudonym. I'm also curious how many people left, who they were, and whether they were arrested on the way out.

The husband and wife are the Beggs (I think not 100%)
Neil Wampler (guy who killed his dad is in the balaclava)
David Fry (tech guy)
Dwane Ehmer (horse guy)
Jason Patrick (suit jacket and slacks guy)
Gary Hunt (blogger of Outpost of Freedom)
and there is one or two others I think.
Coopers were there but seem to have left
posted by phoque at 9:41 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey, after a while you come to prefer the flavor.
posted by Miko at 9:42 AM on January 27, 2016

Fry leaves in an ATV of some sort to grab some Ibuprofen and Diet Pepsi. Diet. As if the realization that counting calories really doesn't matter anymore has not sunk in at all :(

Maybe he's fructose-intolerant!
posted by dialetheia at 9:43 AM on January 27, 2016

The arrests yesterday were possible because the militants had gotten complacent. Turns out it did not take much for them to be convinced that they were able to do whatever they wanted.

Seven of them, including the leaders, were on an isolated road and were stopped at a roadblock because they had stopped worrying about this sort of thing happening. One of the other prominent guys was home in Arizona, and turned himself in. At least one other person in Oregon turned himself in, and many others have fled the Refuge, seeing the massive convoys coming to oust them.

The FBI have ordered everyone to leave and initiated a containment of the Refuge. No one else is getting in, no reinforcements are coming. But this amount of personnel and equipment is what was necessary to shut this giant place off.

I stayed up late last night terrified that they were going to attack as soon as they arrived, around 1 AM. Then there were theories about a pre-dawn raid. Its now well past this and the militants have had hours of sleeplessness, hunger, and cold to wear them down, in addition to seeing many of their fellow militants run away.

This has been a horrible situation all around, but I'm impressed at how the FBI has handled this. It'd be better to have had no deaths, and to have had fewer still holed up at the Refuge, but it looks like they chose a good time to act.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:43 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sort of like French Vanilla creamer, which is made from soybean oil and beaver anal gland extract. (On edit: in reply to Miko, and preferring the flavor of weird things.)
posted by spitbull at 9:43 AM on January 27, 2016

John Hinckley, Jr. ruined that for everyone.

That's why we can't have nice things!
posted by octobersurprise at 9:44 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lost in the Twitter flurry last night; wish I could find it again:
"They can take our lives, but they can never take our CREEEEEAAAAAMER!"
posted by mochapickle at 9:46 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's why we can't have nice things!

Maniacs with guns always ruin everything. Insanity defenses, weddings, wildlife refuges, Jodie Foster, the second amendment.
posted by Talez at 9:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Live stream is down again.
posted by wuwei at 9:47 AM on January 27, 2016

I only hope the Feds refrain from the usual M.O. of cranking painfully loud heavy metal music at them 24/7, as it is a wildlife refuge, and I'd feel bad for the animals.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:51 AM on January 27, 2016

OPB has a background piece up on Finicum, the militant who was killed while charging at LEOs
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:51 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have a feeling that blasting these cats with Ani DiFranco tapes from the 90s would be more effective.

I'd still feel sorry for the wildlife though.
posted by spitbull at 9:53 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Based on that article the other day about the women at the Refuge, they've got plenty of food supplies to last them. But I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI cut the power finally. OTOH that might encourage them to build some fires.

After it's all over (whenever that is), it's going to be awful to be the USFWS staff trying to make the place habitable again. They've done hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage, not to mention the damage to relationships within the local community, and between the local ranchers/farmers, the local and federal government, and the Tribe.
posted by suelac at 9:54 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

I have a feeling that blasting these cats with Ani DiFranco tapes from the 90s would be more effective.
Pretty sure that violates the 8th Amendment, dude.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:54 AM on January 27, 2016

something maybe happened:

http://twitter.com/occupied_burns
posted by valkane at 9:56 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

OTOH that might encourage them to build some fires.

I hadn't thought of that - it's the best reason for not cutting power that I've encountered. Also, incidental hazards from lanterns, etc. Makes total sense.
posted by Miko at 9:57 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who is @occupied_burns?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:59 AM on January 27, 2016

I think he's media, got the link from the OregonLive site
posted by valkane at 10:00 AM on January 27, 2016

These are the homeless people who crashed the party, and drank all the leftover kool-aid from the fridge. You want them to go home but, for them the party just started, they seem dirty, and look to be mocking your moves.

Looking for the accurate distraction quote, there is a lot in Eliot's deathly/lively anthem.

"Tired faces, distracted by distraction from distraction.

We cannot revive old factions
We cannot restore old policies
Or follow an antique drum.
These men, and those who opposed them
And those whom they opposed
Accept the constitution of silence
And are folded in a single party.
Whatever we inherit from the fortunate
We have taken from the defeated
What they had to leave us - a symbol:
A symbol perfected in death."

TS Eliot
posted by Oyéah at 10:00 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

>Who is @occupied_burns?
Whoever he is - he is barely literate and states in recent tweets that he is actually 3 miles from the the refuge - so just an attention seeker - not really at the refuge at all.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:01 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't think he's media; he seems to be some sort of activist who was trying to get to the occupation site.
posted by Miko at 10:02 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pretty lucky positioning if he can "smell cordite" from 3 windblown high desert miles away unless they've hit the place with an AC-130 or something.
posted by spitbull at 10:03 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

New Live stream
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:06 AM on January 27, 2016

yep, guess I was wrong.... sorry.
posted by valkane at 10:08 AM on January 27, 2016

"You weren't livestreaming that were you?"
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:08 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Video now showing militants standing around in a completely tactically ineffective trench (surrounded by hills) that they dug in the refuge. Much land damage. Video POV also shows (kid you not) - snacks.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:08 AM on January 27, 2016

Man I keep waiting for some enterprising MeFite to Rickroll us all with a "New live stream" link that actually goes to a Dora the Explorer video.
posted by spitbull at 10:08 AM on January 27, 2016

Occupied_Burns is one breathless dude who is living in a wonderfully cinematic world. Just read his whole Twitter stream. He's way into this, but I have a hard time believing he's even there, or anywhere around there. He reminds me of that older dude at every protest who chimes in at some critical moment "I occupied the Federal building in '69" and has gripping battle stories over the triumph of trickster radicals against the Man. Usually these people are pretty full of shit. Or maybe it's some sort of performance art.
posted by Miko at 10:10 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

1:02 pm EST
Militia members are expecting a group of Navy Seals to parachute in to the Refuge to come to their aid. The goal is now to hold on to the Refuge until the Seals arrive.
posted by phoque at 10:11 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pretty lucky positioning if he can "smell cordite" from 3 windblown high desert miles away unless they've hit the place with an AC-130 or something.

Especially since cordite hasn't been in use since WWII.
posted by maxsparber at 10:12 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Occupied_Burns is definitely more breathless commentary than substance.
posted by Chutzler at 10:13 AM on January 27, 2016

I want Paul F Tompkins as Werner Herzog doing voice over narration of all this gripping backhoe action.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:13 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

A couple hours have passed since OCG guy told everyone that "reinforcements are 30 minutes away!" How do you maintain that level of cognitive dissonance? OCG guy no longer making rando screen appearances either.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:14 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Militia members are expecting a group of Navy Seals to parachute in to the Refuge to come to their aid. The goal is now to hold on to the Refuge until the Seals arrive.

I'm trying really hard to understand how they can believe this. It truly boggles.
posted by Jalliah at 10:15 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Maybe it will be elves.
posted by Artw at 10:15 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Last March of the Tents.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:17 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

I want Paul F Tompkins as Werner Herzog doing voice over narration of all this gripping backhoe action.

"Attention. Attention. Friday night's movie will be The Glory Brigade. Rock'em sock'em kisses you never got. It's Uncle Sam's combat engineers charging side by side with Greek handbags. Showing the world a new way to fight as they use bulldozers like bazookas, bayonnets like bazook - bullets. Starring Victor Mature. That is all."
posted by octobersurprise at 10:17 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

It probably will be elves, since their entire plan has consisted of

1. Seize building
2. ???
3. Revolution
posted by maxsparber at 10:17 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Giant freedom eagles to whisk them all away.
posted by notyou at 10:18 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh the comments, someone says "they're digging a lube moat."
posted by spitbull at 10:18 AM on January 27, 2016 [18 favorites]

HERZOG: "And what haunts me, is that in all the faces of all the bears occupiers at the refuge, I discover no kinship, no understanding, no mercy. I see only the overwhelming indifference of nature. To me, there is no such thing as a secret world of the bears occupiers. And this blank stare speaks only of a half-bored interest in food."
posted by mochapickle at 10:18 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

"What remains is this footage. And while we watch the animals occupiers in their joys of being, in their grace and ferociousness, a thought becomes more and more clear. That it is not so much a look at wild nature, as it is an insight into ourselves, our nature. And that, for me, beyond his mission, gives meaning to life and to death. "

Grizzly Patriot Man
posted by mochapickle at 10:19 AM on January 27, 2016

Massive destruction of refuge property and Paiute grounds via the CAT continuing on in the video.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:22 AM on January 27, 2016

Militia members are expecting a group of Navy Seals to parachute in to the Refuge to come to their aid. The goal is now to hold on to the Refuge until the Seals arrive.

Well, that explains how to get around the barricades, I guess.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:23 AM on January 27, 2016

1:18 pm EST
Yes, some militia members have spoken with retired Seals who are en route. This is not a joke.
posted by achrise at 10:23 AM on January 27, 2016

You should set up a "Warner Malheurzog" Twitter account, mochapickle.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:24 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yes, because the feds don't have any control over airspace above the refuge. The people claim it.
posted by spitbull at 10:24 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I like how they spread the camo tarp over the truck. YOU TOTALLY CANT SEE IT NOW
posted by Miko at 10:25 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Massive destruction of refuge property and Paiute grounds via the CAT continuing on in the video.

Destruction of historical cultural locations. Whose playbook is that? Oh yeah.
posted by maxsparber at 10:25 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Militia members are expecting a group of Navy Seals to parachute in to the Refuge to come to their aid. The goal is now to hold on to the Refuge until the Seals arrive.

Well that makes more sense. Ones that are no longer active. I was thinking they were talking about an active team.
posted by Jalliah at 10:25 AM on January 27, 2016

The occupiers, some of them, need a ride home. They are tapped out. They need a big, freak bus, ride to the nearest Greyhound station, and tickets. I think they planned to either live or die there. They need social workers of sorts. Believe me, this is the cheapest end game solution.
posted by Oyéah at 10:26 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I like how they spread the camo tarp over the truck. YOU TOTALLY CANT SEE IT NOW

truckasaurus is undercover yo
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:26 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Seals were supposed to arrive Thursday (I believe) ... so no reason why plans would change.
posted by phoque at 10:26 AM on January 27, 2016

Spoiler Alert: No reinforcements will be arriving - via parachute or otherwise
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Everyone knows a Blackhawk helicopter is part of the standard Navy SEAL retirement package.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Seal team ten to twenty-five.
posted by spitbull at 10:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yes, some militia members have spoken with retired Seals who are en route. This is not a joke.

Little do they know that these are actual seals that were used by the Navy for testing anti-submarine efforts.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:27 AM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

new feed
posted by valkane at 10:28 AM on January 27, 2016

Massive destruction of refuge property and Paiute grounds via the CAT continuing on in the video.

Destruction of historical cultural locations. Whose playbook is that? Oh yeah.

#VanillaISIS was more right than we knew.
posted by stevis23 at 10:28 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I agree, Oyeah, they need someone to wrap them in a warm, dry blanket, give them some hot cocoa, and say "It's over. You're all right. Everything is all right. Just calm down." Kind of like when Ralphie beat up Scut Farkis and his mom washed his face.
posted by Miko at 10:28 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh, it's down again.

Clicking through previous feeds... Fry was taping last night & showing some of the living areas, and then he went to go visit a sweet puppy who was in a kennel in a garage. I am worried about the puppy.
posted by mochapickle at 10:28 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yes, some militia members have spoken with retired Seals who are en route. This is not a joke.

Little do they know that these are actual seals that were used by the Navy for testing anti-submarine efforts.

Well, it'll up the average IQ in the compound, at least.
posted by Etrigan at 10:28 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

i guess they have to have a ditch full of lube where the navy seals can splash down and launch their dildos

call it operation well lubricated miltia
posted by pyramid termite at 10:30 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

must be lunch time.
posted by valkane at 10:34 AM on January 27, 2016

this is riveting
posted by Miko at 10:36 AM on January 27, 2016

This entire thing is like someone is re-enacting a mad libs.
posted by Green With You at 10:37 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Current live stream

Scratch that, it JUST died.
posted by Chutzler at 10:37 AM on January 27, 2016

So, whatever happened to that convoy of reinforcements we saw in that video earlier? The ones with what looked like a box truck that's supposedly "armored"?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:37 AM on January 27, 2016

I think that's the previous one.
posted by mochapickle at 10:38 AM on January 27, 2016

Chutzler - that is not a current live stream - you may wish to edit. New live stream is pending
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:39 AM on January 27, 2016

Kid sure can't keep a stream up, can he?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:39 AM on January 27, 2016

Yeah this one isn't current.
posted by Miko at 10:40 AM on January 27, 2016

The armored vehicles are part of the road block now.
posted by phoque at 10:40 AM on January 27, 2016

Here we go. Live stream.
posted by valkane at 10:41 AM on January 27, 2016

A new stream
posted by phoque at 10:42 AM on January 27, 2016

OPB reporting they're going to livestream a law enforcement press conference at 11am PST (~15 minutes from now).

Harney County Sheriff David Ward, FBI Special Agent in Charge Greg Bretzing and U.S. Attorney Bill Williams are all expected to speak.

Stream details
posted by genehack at 10:44 AM on January 27, 2016

"I heard shots fired. Front gate."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016

Fry claiming shots fired, but I didn't hear anything.
posted by mochapickle at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016

Fry claiming - almost gleefully - that shots are being fired at "the front gate" - nothing heard in audio stream - then states "false alarm!"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016

False alarm. Machinery noise.
posted by valkane at 10:46 AM on January 27, 2016

No shots fired; David got spooked by a large machine making a noise.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:46 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh man, they are so jumpy.

Waiting them out for a while seems like a good thing.
posted by mochapickle at 10:46 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel for Fry's parents. I don't think I could deal with my kid going off the deep end like this, especially when it could mean his death.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

More eyewitness testimony of Lavoy shooting by Victoria Sharp, a passenger in the truck. Claims the vehicle was sprayed with bullets and Lavoy gunned down (but also corroborates the taking off and jumping out).
posted by phoque at 10:53 AM on January 27, 2016

Press conference stream.
posted by Talez at 10:54 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

With Fry I just keep thinking of Linux User Group meetings back in college, the kind of free-floating nerviness that came from the mix of straight-faced interest in the OS for its own sake, active evangelism about the free software movement, and bit of frantic and fantastical investment in the idea of Changing The World as some kind of sacred and semi-secret mission of meritocracy.

Couldn't stop seeing his involvement through that lens from when he was first broadcasting some excited jabber about booting up a server on one of the refuge workstations via a USB stick. Like my buddy in highschool showing me he'd gotten permission to load Linux or FreeBSD on the beefy new server the tech teacher had bought with grant money, and how it could run Quake if nobody was looking.

Same twitchy clumsy youthful zeal, same sense of excitement and validation thereby, just slopped over into some deeply bad shit instead of "hey let's write our own window manager".
posted by cortex at 10:56 AM on January 27, 2016 [13 favorites]

With Lavoy I suspect we'll see a lot of attempts to have it both ways.
posted by Artw at 10:57 AM on January 27, 2016

>Same twitchy clumsy youthful zeal, same sense of excitement and validation thereby,

Except with guns.
And exhortations to kill people.
Which I don't recall being a thing at my UG meetings
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:00 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Same twitchy clumsy youthful zeal

It doesn't matter what the cause is. The allure is in the sense of grandeur.
posted by Miko at 11:01 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Stream of FBI presser that does NOT require flash
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:02 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, thank you! Much easier to hear.
posted by mochapickle at 11:03 AM on January 27, 2016

Press conference is live. OPB has better sound.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:03 AM on January 27, 2016

Yeah, far better audio. So irritating that they didn't wire the room speakers and the people in attendance - like print reporters - can barely hear. let alone us.
posted by Miko at 11:04 AM on January 27, 2016

In my more empathetic moments I wonder how they could have found a better cause to pour all that zeal into.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Pretty cool that they got Jack Ryan to do their presser.
posted by valkane at 11:06 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Containment robots are now in place. (!)
posted by Floydd at 11:07 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

McConnell a local who was in the truck, said there were only four passengers in the truck that moved away from the first roadblock. McConnell, (insert the proper Scottish name here,) Finicum, Ryan Bundy, and an unidentified, eighteen year old woman. There were not women, the firefight took place miles away from the other car. This new testimony is not from an eyewitness.
posted by Oyéah at 11:08 AM on January 27, 2016

Containment robots are now in place. (!)

That's what I heard too! I think he said "roadblocks" though?
posted by dialetheia at 11:08 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Are you sure those aren't containment road blocks?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:08 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

David Fry live feed back here.
posted by valkane at 11:09 AM on January 27, 2016

I don't want there to be such a thing as containment robots
posted by Countess Elena at 11:09 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I for one welcome our containment robot masters.
posted by maxsparber at 11:09 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

They're both.
posted by Atreides at 11:10 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Containment robots?
posted by mazola at 11:10 AM on January 27, 2016

truckasaurus sees a job thru
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:10 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

Sheriff Dave Ward is now speaking at the press conference.
posted by mountmccabe at 11:10 AM on January 27, 2016

Yeah, roadblocks.

Enunciate, FBI guy!!

(I want there to be robots!)
posted by Floydd at 11:11 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

OPB has not gotten the micro-history right, to date. So.
posted by Oyéah at 11:11 AM on January 27, 2016

Ward was so over his head this whole time. I think he never could have expected this.
posted by mochapickle at 11:11 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ward is hurting.
posted by OmieWise at 11:12 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

OPB has not gotten the micro-history right, to date. So.


Point is they got the mic right.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:12 AM on January 27, 2016

> Ward was so over his head this whole time. I think he never could have expected this.

Just saw him at the press conf. I think he's the one who's going to come out of this a hero.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:14 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I agree, Ward is really feeling the burden, and the lack of outraged reaction is indicative of plenty of support. So, that seemed to preface stronger action.
posted by Miko at 11:15 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sheriff Ward seemed like he was about to cry. He also put the blame entirely on the illegal occupiers, and directly refuted accusations that what happened last night was the result of a poorly-planned operation.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:15 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

I hope everything works out for Ward. His whole community was shattered.
posted by mochapickle at 11:16 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

directly refuted accusations that what happened last night was the result of a poorly-planned operation.

Poor guy was probably reading this thread.
posted by maxsparber at 11:16 AM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

McConnell was driving the first vehicle (Jeep) with Ammon and Budda and Shawna Cox.
Lavoy was driving the truck (diesel, manual trans) with Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne and 18year old Victoria Sharp (one of the Sharp family singers who were providing entertainment). The rest of the family made it to the meeting and preformed (I think).
posted by phoque at 11:18 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lots of chatter on the livefeed about a helicopter coming in
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:18 AM on January 27, 2016

Instead of posting the latest live feed link every time David Fry resets his camera, can we just assume everyone is smart enough to go to the DefendYourBase account and click whatever shows as live at the moment?
posted by Nelson at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

>18year old Victoria Sharp (one of the Sharp family singers who were providing entertainment)

Ahhh The Von Roadtrap Family singers.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2016 [13 favorites]

Nelson - not everyone is able to stream that live feed - work , etc.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:20 AM on January 27, 2016

Earlier action could probably have prevented the one casualty we've had, and Ward was probably a part of that.

Hopefully the strategy of pandering to these guys and hoping they go away is now dead for future confrontations.
posted by Artw at 11:20 AM on January 27, 2016

Yes they were at the original Bundy standoff but lost a couple kids to child abuse prior to this one.
posted by phoque at 11:21 AM on January 27, 2016

The live feed shows how the occupiers are amped up right now

Just wait for the adrenaline comedown. Naptime for all.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:22 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

What's that beeping?
posted by mochapickle at 11:23 AM on January 27, 2016

Yes they were at the original Bundy standoff but lost a couple kids to child abuse prior to this one.

What? I don't understand this.
posted by OmieWise at 11:23 AM on January 27, 2016

Just wait for the adrenaline comedown. Naptime for all.

And stummy aches.
posted by maxsparber at 11:23 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Artw: LaVoy (and others) have been clear about not being taken alive. How do you figure earlier action "could probably" have prevented this single casualty?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:23 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

beeping is a UPS
posted by Mach5 at 11:23 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Watching the defendyourbase feed, waiting for Michael Palin to trot up over the hill dressed in tatters with long white hair to say "It's..." and then fall over.

The gunships immediately crest the mount, 'The Liberty Bell' playing from loudspeakers.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:25 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Sharp family went to the original Bundy standoff. They came to the Malheur standoff too but were short a couple kids because they were found to have abused them in between time.
posted by phoque at 11:25 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Earlier action could probably have prevented the one casualty we've had, and Ward was probably a part of that.

"You don’t draw a line in the sand unless you’re willing to go all the way."

"I’ve cast my lot with them, and we’ve crossed the Rubicon, and there’s no turning back. The public, the whole world, the country needs to understand that these buildings never never go back to the federal government."

You think the guy who said those things wouldn't have charged at federales last week?
posted by Etrigan at 11:26 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Y'know...If you squint hard, this angle really evokes Mt. Suribaci. Maybe they're planning their very own "planting the flag on Iwo Jima" tableau.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:26 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Artw: LaVoy (and others) have been clear about not being taken alive. How do you figure earlier action "could probably" have prevented this single casualty?

Walking into camp on day one and arresting them all/clearing them out. Not allowing them to disappear so far off into delusional fantasyland before doing so.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on January 27, 2016

Walking into camp on day one and arresting them all/clearing them out.

I think that would have been a lot more likelier to be a bloodbath. The occupiers were all excited and full of themselves. Also, letting things play out has given the entire nation a chance to give the occupiers a side eye and ask themselves whether these folks make good heroes. I think this has been mostly well handled.
posted by Miko at 11:30 AM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]

so surreal.
posted by valkane at 11:30 AM on January 27, 2016

Phone call offscreen on the stream, to not sure who. Can you come get my dogs?...How come you're not shooting them sons of bitches?...Media cleared out, so they're gonna kill us like they did LaVoy...You were THERE?
posted by cortex at 11:30 AM on January 27, 2016

Man offscreen talking to friend, asking him to come take his dogs to safety. Friend says he was with LaVoy when he was shot. How is that even possible -- everyone in that truck has been arrested.
posted by mochapickle at 11:30 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Off camera audio from possibly OCG guy getting more news of Finicum's death from a possibly "witness".

"What?? You were there?? Oh... OK... good to know good to know...."
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:31 AM on January 27, 2016

FBI walking into the refuge on day one would have been a disaster. Most of the people there were already in delusional fantasyland and were amped up and ready to go. The militants may have even been able to defend their position for several days, causing significant casualties, while law enforcement figured out jurisdiction, brought in forces, etc.
posted by mountmccabe at 11:32 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Says Finicum was unarmed, that his guns are still at the reserve....
posted by valkane at 11:32 AM on January 27, 2016

Asks his friend if he's on horseback. Also why he hasn't shot the officers at the blockade.
posted by mochapickle at 11:33 AM on January 27, 2016

Man. Dude's deeply into the whole "Band of Brothers" thing, isn't he?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on January 27, 2016

his phone must have a silenced .22 sound fx on it....
posted by valkane at 11:33 AM on January 27, 2016

pew pew silencer ringtone
manliest of all ringtone
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:34 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

One of these guys has a (fake) silenced gun noise as his ringtone. Because of course that's not stupid at all.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:34 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Some James Bond silenced-pistol-esque notifications going off on someone's phone.

"Is your phone making that noise?"

"Yeah, it's not sniper stuff. I should probably change that."
posted by Chutzler at 11:34 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

Guy is asking Fry how to MacGuyver a way to take down the plane circling overhead.
posted by mochapickle at 11:35 AM on January 27, 2016

How is that even possible

Reality-based thinking is not these guys' strong suit.
posted by Miko at 11:35 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

best buy geek squad got their advertising plug in
"come to best buy we can take care of your drone problem and also poorly wire a car stereo for you"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:36 AM on January 27, 2016

He suggests using chewing gum.
posted by mochapickle at 11:36 AM on January 27, 2016

History will remember this as the Great Dunning-Kruger Rebellion
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:36 AM on January 27, 2016 [23 favorites]

AGameOfMoans: " Diet. As if the realization that counting calories really doesn't matter anymore has not sunk in at all :("

They taste different; some people prefer the Diet version taste.
posted by Mitheral at 11:39 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

some people prefer the Diet version taste.

This is the craziest thing I have read in this thread.
posted by maxsparber at 11:41 AM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]

"Don't let 'em shootcher dick off!"
posted by Chutzler at 11:41 AM on January 27, 2016

"Don't let 'em shoot your dick off."

"What?"

"Don't let 'em shoot your dick off! Ha ha."
posted by cortex at 11:41 AM on January 27, 2016

"Don't let 'em shoot your dick off!"

(I'm guessing one had to pee.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:42 AM on January 27, 2016

Helicopter incoming. All taking cover.
posted by mochapickle at 11:43 AM on January 27, 2016

Take cover? They really think the Feds would send a gunship in and wipe them out? Good lord.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:44 AM on January 27, 2016

I'm kind of concerned about what is planned. That line-in-the-sand speech by Ward, his emotion - it must be that the FBI is planning some sort of larger raid or offensive action. I can understand his being upset by what has happened, but perhaps he was more upset by what he knows is going to happen.
posted by Miko at 11:44 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I bet they just do flyovers at irregular intervals for the next however-long-it-takes until everyone passes out from adrenaline crashes.
posted by mochapickle at 11:44 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

So many people are calling David Fry "Kylo Ren." Adam Driver doesn't deserve that kind of disrespect.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:46 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

helicopter starts dropping leaflets
hundreds of penis drawings from super bad
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:46 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

Also, letting things play out has given the entire nation a chance to give the occupiers a side eye and ask themselves whether these folks make good heroes.

Also also, it's going to be interesting to see how/if this drives wedges between the various "patriot" factions. Already, we've got the other sheriff, Palmer, who only yesterday was looking like a Bundista hero, now looking like he set them up. Half of the Malheur belligerents ran off before things got tough and none of the three-percenters or oathkeepers rode in to save anyone. The grudges and counter grudges are sure to follow.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

hundreds of penis drawings from super bad

What? It'd have to be Dick Butt.
posted by Talez at 11:48 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

So many people are calling David Fry "Kylo Ren."

More like Kylo Stimpy.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:50 AM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

helicopter starts dropping leaflets
hundreds of penis drawings from super bad

And now all I can picture is a fleet of helicopters flying through blaring Ride of the Valkyries while dropping hundreds of dildos, each with a tiny parachute, slowly floating down to the ground
posted by Roommate at 11:51 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

Can some extremely rare endangered bird please stroll through their livestream and then fly off to live in the refuge?
posted by Weeping_angel at 11:51 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

In my opinion, from long ago training, if they are risking a helicopter for recon (however minor the risk) then the Feds may be seriously close to ending that whole show by moving in. Like 30 minutes close. But we'll see what we see.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:52 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I bet they just do flyovers at irregular intervals for the next however-long-it-takes until everyone passes out from adrenaline crashes.

Since these guys seem to fancy themselves planespotters ("last night they flew a two prop, tonight is a one prop") they should start doing flyovers with more and more improbable military aircraft. Unmarked black helicopters, followed by WWII dogfighters, followed by the Blue Angels, maybe do up a police helicopter with UN markings. Could one of those hotshot firefighting planes be loaded with lube?
posted by contraption at 11:53 AM on January 27, 2016 [22 favorites]

Camera now pointed at sky.
posted by mochapickle at 11:54 AM on January 27, 2016

they should start doing flyovers with more and more improbable military aircraft. Unmarked black helicopters, followed by WWII dogfighters, followed by the Blue Angels, maybe do up a police helicopter with UN markings. Could one of those hotshot firefighting planes be loaded with lube?

You can load just about anything into the NASA Super Guppy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:55 AM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fly an A-10 warthog at 10 foot elevation painted black with fire decals
posted by BungaDunga at 11:56 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't know if this is some sort of scheme to film the helicopter or just an avant garde anti-cinema demonstration by Fry.
posted by cortex at 11:57 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

...they should start doing flyovers with more and more improbable military aircraft. Unmarked black helicopters, followed by WWII dogfighters, followed by the Blue Angels, maybe do up a police helicopter with UN markings.

I'm thinking an F-16 going supersonic over the refuge would make for some mighty fine video fun.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:57 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Questions being raised on the livestream about the location of "Wanomah county", where they believe Ammon is being held. Semper fi!
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:58 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fly an A-10 warthog at 10 foot elevation painted black with fire decals

Fly an A-10 warthog at 10 foot elevation painted hot pink with knobbles.
posted by Artw at 11:59 AM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

also one of those goofy 8 wing prop planes
a da vinci helicopter
a kite
giant pets.com dog balloon from 1998
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:59 AM on January 27, 2016 [14 favorites]

Fry's feed (now resetting) appears to intermittently show a 2 seater (??) recon chopper hovering at about 1 km away at maybe 1500-2000 feet. Which is what you would do if you were gathering intel and/or coordinating a ground assault on a position.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:59 AM on January 27, 2016

contraption: "they should start doing flyovers with more and more improbable military aircraft."

Maye get an Avrocar out of mothballs.
posted by Mitheral at 11:59 AM on January 27, 2016

thinking an F-16 going supersonic over the refuge would make for some mighty fine video fun.

"Negative Dildorider, the pattern is full."
posted by zombieflanders at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]

Let's hope they don't think it's a good idea to use that .50cal - You bring an anti-material rifle into this mix, and there's no way that the response is anything but overwhelming force. It's the sort of action that leads to casualties on both sides.

It was in the deaths-by-firearms thread that some 2nd enthusiast was complaining about the restrictions on these and fully automatic weapons.

Huh.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

they could bring in the Antonov An-2 posted a couple of days ago and do wing-walking stunts
posted by BungaDunga at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2016

Thorzdad: "I'm thinking an F-16 going supersonic over the refuge would make for some mighty fine video fun."

Sonic booms are really hard on wildlife.
posted by Mitheral at 12:00 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

HARD-deck.
posted by Artw at 12:01 PM on January 27, 2016

THE RON PAUL BLIMP!
posted by indubitable at 12:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

80 Days Around the World-style hot air balloon, with steampunkers peering at them through spyglasses
posted by Miko at 12:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

how about a few of those remote control flying superheroes
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:02 PM on January 27, 2016

Stream is back, Fry said he had to buy more data. Maybe we're on more solid footing now.
posted by Chutzler at 12:03 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Lieutenant ....get me Balloon Boy..."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:03 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

" Now, with T-Mobile, terrorist streaming is free!"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:04 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]

Questions being raised on the livestream about the location of "Wanomah county", where they believe Ammon is being held. Semper fi!

They'll have to brave something far more noxious than the FBI... The liberal enclave of PORTLAND.
posted by Talez at 12:06 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Perhaps Macy's can loan them the Underdog balloon.
posted by stevis23 at 12:06 PM on January 27, 2016

"Lieutenant ....get me Balloon Boy..."

He's too busy stumping for Trump.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:06 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Right now they are discussing how "they have to pardon us, the American people will make 'em."

They do realize who they would need to ask for a pardon, don't they?
posted by TedW at 12:09 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

President Trump?
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:10 PM on January 27, 2016

He's too busy stumping for Trump

Is that ... satire? I can't even tell any more.
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:10 PM on January 27, 2016

Fry said he had to buy more data.

For the telephone that he's using to broadcast his last stand again the US government to his global audience. The future is heavy, man.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:10 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Of course! Send in Trump! He's a seasoned negotiator with conservative bona fides, this could be a huge boost to his campaign.
posted by contraption at 12:11 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

We're still alive right now because of God.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:11 PM on January 27, 2016

They'll have to brave something far more noxious than the FBI... The liberal enclave of PORTLAND.

I'm really trying to temper the soap-opera-watching part of my interest in this, but I must admit that I'd love to see a militia come to town and attempt to free the Bundys.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:11 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

When Lars von Trier and the rest of the Dogme 95 folks wrote their manifesto I'm not sure they saw this coming.
posted by cortex at 12:11 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]

What is he doing? Trying to fashion some kind of rudimentary lathe?
posted by valkane at 12:14 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't know why I keep watching the live feed. Nothing's going to happen today. They're going to give them a day or two to cool down, try to get a phone to them to talk them out. In the meantime, roads are blocked so no one can join them. Hopefully the adrenaline will thin out and it'll slowly dawn on them that putting down their guns and walking out is the best solution, but for now they seem to be stuck in "retired Navy SEALs are coming to save us!"
posted by bluecore at 12:14 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

I believe he is endeavoring to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

obviously not an iphone.
posted by valkane at 12:17 PM on January 27, 2016

For the telephone that he's using to broadcast his last stand again the US government to his global audience. The future is heavy, man.

On second thought, Marty, let's not go back to the future...
It is a silly place.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:17 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Minecraft movie trailer confirmed!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:17 PM on January 27, 2016

And now all I can picture is a fleet of helicopters flying through blaring Ride of the Valkyries while dropping hundreds of dildos live turkeys
posted by octobersurprise at 12:19 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Kylo read the stream comments.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:20 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

David Fry failing to get his lighter to light is the loudest sound in the world.
posted by cortex at 12:21 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also also, it's going to be interesting to see how/if this drives wedges between the various "patriot" factions.

More interested to see if it drives a wedge between the small number of actual armed militants who consider themselves "movement" "patriots" and the rank and file Fox News gun nutter crowd who tacitly or vaguely support these people, find them romantic, think they have a point, or otherwise sympathize with them from a safe arm's length distance (as when Fox News went gaga for Cliven Bundy in the first standoff until he started talking about "the negro"). There are a whole lot of people like that, willing to engage in casual Alex Jones anti-government blabber all day long online (just read the comments at RedState, supposedly a mainstream conservative site), but probably a bit unnerved when that turns into actual seditious insurrection and armed standoffs with law enforcement, given the otherwise heroic status accorded to militarized law enforcement by these same people when it's progressive protestors or poor people of color who bear the cost of the macho guns blazing approach to law and order and the suppression of non-violent dissent.

The with them/against them line just got a lot sharper. Either you see these guys as violent criminals who need to be locked up and disarmed en masse across the country (RICO act should be handy) or you're a terrorist sympathizer. I think a lot more Americans will be clear on that now, as happened for a while after the OKC bombing.
posted by spitbull at 12:22 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's gonna fall asleep.
posted by valkane at 12:23 PM on January 27, 2016

From the stream comments...
FREEDOM NEVER BUFFERS

heh
posted by Thorzdad at 12:23 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like this recent buffering development is the universe's way of telling me to stop being a rubbernecker.
posted by cortex at 12:28 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Where does Sean Penn fit into all of this?

Somebody in the hotel room where Pete Santilli's live camera ended up ripped a mean fart yesterday
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

OK, I'm willing to turn this off for now if you are. Anyone else want to join me?

It's hard to look away.
posted by mochapickle at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

No way! It's like binge-watching The Walking Dead, only with way less zombies. Or action.
posted by valkane at 12:32 PM on January 27, 2016

Yeah, I finally get what those ASMR people are going on about.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:33 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

The story of how Lavoy was shot is getting more and more elaborate according to various internet comments I've been coming across. Now he not only had his hands up but was on his knees, saying he was unarmed over and over and was shot point blank in the face, execution style.

The historical myth is being developed as we speak. I'm finding it both incredibly sad and tragic and fascinating at the same time.
posted by Jalliah at 12:33 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm with you mochapickle.

At least until the containment robots show up.
posted by Floydd at 12:34 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm not watching anymore. The constant resets got too annoying to bother.
posted by Jalliah at 12:34 PM on January 27, 2016

Ammon putting that story out (assuming it was Ammon) is the most selfish, self-serving thing he could have possibly done. People stayed at the refuge because of that story, and they may very well get themselves killed.
posted by mochapickle at 12:36 PM on January 27, 2016

OK, I turned it off. It feels good.
posted by mochapickle at 12:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's like binge-watching The Walking Dead, only with way less zombies. Or action.

So, The Walking Dead, then.
posted by Etrigan at 12:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Ammon putting that story out (assuming it was Ammon) is the most selfish, self-serving thing he could have possibly done. People stayed at the refuge because of that story, and they may very well get themselves killed.

Yeah no idea where it came or is coming from. It could be on purpose or something like a weird internet version of telephone where it just grows with different people adding a little to it as it's repeated over and over.
posted by Jalliah at 12:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Pretty soon they will reveal the story of LeVoy's resurrection. Keep in mind he used kids with disabilities, and problems to float his big, fundie family.

The family is used to existing on government support. Now they are making falsehoods to get a fat government settlement.
posted by Oyéah at 12:46 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

There is no way in hell that confrontation wasn't recorded from various angles, but I guess the "I can tell from the pixels" crowd will "debunk" that too.
posted by Etrigan at 12:49 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Stream comment gems:

SallyImpossible: walmartyrs
Cassandra Commans: THIS PORNO IS POORLY SCRIPTED

(When the camera was pointing at a hill)

barncat35: WHY AM I LOOKING AT A WINDOWS XP DESKTOP

(When the video started stuttering)

Justin: FREEDOM NEVER BUFFERS
Evan NJ: Hi My name is Matt, I'm a radar technition
Sparkly Gems: Go to the Nearest Checkpoint Gate for better reception
LOLWhat: THE REVOLUTION WILL BE STREAMED IN 2G

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:53 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

Keep in mind that Ammon Bundy was arrested over a mile away and sitting in the back of a patrol car when the shooting occurred. He did not witness the shooting. He is simply making stuff up.
posted by JackFlash at 1:08 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Small correction, there were 3 people in the Jeep and 5 in the truck. Both women were in the truck. So not having more people shot seems very lucky if they were subject to a barrage of fire.

Also the area appears to have been a place where cell phone service was known to be unavailable and with Bundy in custody, making a call seems unlikely. However since they were allowed to talk, there may have been time before being processed and with voice dialing perhaps feasible while restrained.
posted by phoque at 1:11 PM on January 27, 2016

So is it LeVoy orLaVey? I get my vowels mixed up sometimes. I hope the historical record is more accurate.
posted by TedW at 1:15 PM on January 27, 2016

It's Robert. But his book cover says LaVoy.
posted by mochapickle at 1:16 PM on January 27, 2016

The story of how Lavoy was shot is getting more and more elaborate according to various internet comments I've been coming across.

It's only a matter of time before the story includes Hillary or Obama personally firing the killing shots.
posted by happyroach at 1:19 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Burnsghazi.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:21 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fox News went gaga for Cliven Bundy in the first standoff until he started talking about "the negro"

Seriously, it's like he's never heard of Lee Atwater.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:21 PM on January 27, 2016

Seriously, it's like he's never heard of Lee Atwater.

Or Paul LePage.
posted by OmieWise at 1:23 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

In a recent livestream (just before it goes dark) the militants appear to finally key into the idea that everyone is listening to them via livestream as they discuss their plans to escape to a different county .

Just before the video ends an exchange between militant goes :
"Are they listening to us right now"
"yes"
"well ain't nothing like giving away the whole fu$king plan!" .... and cut to black
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:27 PM on January 27, 2016 [20 favorites]

> well ain't nothing like giving away the whole fu$king plan!

Heh -- I wonder if that's why the live streams have gone away.

(P.S. It's okay to swear here.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:32 PM on January 27, 2016

Robert LaVoy Finicum. He is from Cane Beds, Arizona. I rolled into that town via the back road, a sand road from The Coral Pink Sand Dunes in Utah. It was seriously down scale at that time. I am not kidding about this next part. The residents were the hippie polygamist arm, with one charasmatic leader. The marriages were much less structured and they had practices like bathing naked in the angel of the sun. When I drove by, the leader's enclave was up for sale. I took a back road to Pipe Spring National Monument.

Finicum was likely gravely ill, and looking for a lawsuit to keep everything going.

It is criminal neglect, to my mind, for Arizona to have ever placed children anywhere in Cane Beds, Centennial, or Colorado City.
posted by Oyéah at 1:33 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

New live feed (you masochists!)

They're mobile! Streaming from a vehicle apparently going to the super-sekrit place that they announced in the previous video.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:35 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oyeah, I'm intrigued. Was LaVoy currently sick?
posted by mochapickle at 1:37 PM on January 27, 2016

Super sekrit, what? A blanket fort? I hope they remember their decoder rings! It is public they wouldn't let the next door rancher in to feed stock. So maybe that ranch hand will let them come over, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Surprise party!
posted by Oyéah at 1:41 PM on January 27, 2016

Also the weirdest thing happens if you try to Google Street View for Cane Beds, AZ. You can view from the highway, but the second you click down the road, it's all black and amber bokeh.
posted by mochapickle at 1:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not really feeling the current livestream.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:44 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also the weirdest thing happens if you try to Google Street View for Cane Beds, AZ. You can view from the highway, but the second you click down the road, it's all black and amber bokeh.

That is super weird. Feels almost X-Files-ish

How do you think something like this comes to pass?
posted by Windopaene at 1:51 PM on January 27, 2016

I bet it's God.
posted by contraption at 1:52 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Audio by Fry in the last live video say that they are at "the gate" . The front gate?

Off Camera Fry is heard apparently exiting the vehicle while leaving the livestream phone pointed at the sky and says "Wish me luck!" then just car noise and empty sky as the vehicle is heard to take off again
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:53 PM on January 27, 2016

The sick thing, he was a thin man under a big hat, in puffy clothes. He has at least one wife, and eleven kids. Wants to die, but not from what is already killing him. With HIPPA and all they can say he died of bullet wounds, but not that he was already dying. This is highly speculative, but he wanted to die an heroic death, instead of some other kind.
posted by Oyéah at 1:54 PM on January 27, 2016

Finicum was likely gravely ill,

Do you have some evidence or reason to think that? Or are you just making it up?
posted by Juffo-Wup at 1:56 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

How do you think something like this comes to pass?

a vast far-reaching conspiracy, what else could it be?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:58 PM on January 27, 2016

This is highly speculative,

Why yes, it certainly is.
posted by hippybear at 1:58 PM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

It's always possible one of them was smart enough to feed false info into the live feed because they knew the FBI were watching.

I say that, but I feel kind of dirty for thinking them that clever.
posted by Atreides at 1:59 PM on January 27, 2016

Since these guys seem to fancy themselves planespotters ("last night they flew a two prop, tonight is a one prop") they should start doing flyovers with more and more improbable military aircraft.

The Spruce Goose is resting in Oregon near Ammon Bundy's jail cell. That oughta throw 'em.
posted by msalt at 2:06 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

KOPB (Oregon's NPR radio) reports that reporters including them have all withdrawn from the refuge due to "erratic behavior" by the occupiers.

They also mentioned that the feds had casually warned that enforcement actions could take place at any time without concern for bystanders.
posted by msalt at 2:07 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

They also mentioned that the feds had casually warned that enforcement actions could take place at any time without concern for bystanders.

“casually”? That’s a loaded adjective.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:10 PM on January 27, 2016

Funny how they're aren't any heroic Fox News reporters up at the cabin, willing to risk their lives in order to get the story.
posted by happyroach at 2:10 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Spruce Goose is resting in Oregon near Ammon Bundy's jail cell.

Unless you're suggesting that they transported Bundy several hundred miles and many hours diagonally across the state of Oregon, or unless you're using a planetary-scale definition of the word "near", you're really entirely wrong about the proximity of McMinnville to Burns.
posted by hippybear at 2:10 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ammon is in Portland as we speak, and has been all day.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:12 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also the weirdest thing happens if you try to Google Street View for Cane Beds, AZ. You can view from the highway, but the second you click down the road, it's all black and amber bokeh.

Neat. It seems like Google does occasionally collect Street View imagery after dark (most of the links in the comments have been replaced by now, but if you scroll down to the bottom some are still in place), but it tends to get edited out or replaced on subsequent daytime passes. I don't think Cane Beds is high on the list of places to re-send a Street View car. It looks like the imagery was collected at night while it was raining.
posted by figurant at 2:14 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Speaking of which, is there any word on the arraignments? It was my understanding they were scheduled to start about 45 minutes ago.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 2:14 PM on January 27, 2016

Ammon is in Portland as we speak, and has been all day.

Ah, okay, then it is quite close. I had missed that factoid.
posted by hippybear at 2:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

>Feels almost X-Files-ish

You mean badly written and totally unnecessary?
posted by Catblack at 2:20 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Tweet from Maxine Bernstein; Cellphones not allowed into court for Bundy & fellow refuge occupiers' arraignment- so won't be able to tweet until after
posted by phoque at 2:21 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope the judge's US flag has the longest, shiniest gold fringe ever put on a flag.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:27 PM on January 27, 2016 [36 favorites]

Funny how they're aren't any heroic Fox News reporters up at the cabin, willing to risk their lives in order to get the story.

What's great about them is they can have it either way, depending on the desired spin: either "the feds forced us out" or "We needed to let the good people of law enforcement do their work."
posted by Miko at 2:27 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

In a recent livestream (just before it goes dark) the militants appear to finally key into the idea that everyone is listening to them via livestream as they discuss their plans to escape to a different county .

Okay this cracked me up. I just assumed that they knew that anyone, including law enforcement would be listening to their feeds and decided that documenting the truth (or whatever) was just more important. Like it was a thought out risk and that of course you don't talk about the secret stuff around a live camera. Duh.

Even after everything that has happened I'm still giving them to much credit in the smarts department.
posted by Jalliah at 2:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Of course they knew they were on camera! That "secret plan" was just a ruse meant to misdirect suckers like you, their real secret plan is way cooler and better.
posted by contraption at 2:49 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

The smarts department nothing on the shelves...

First thing, Big Bro didn't ask them to surrender, they told them to go away. They lack basic listening skills.
posted by Oyéah at 2:50 PM on January 27, 2016

Bundy and co are in jail until at least Friday.
posted by Talez at 3:12 PM on January 27, 2016

They seemed to discuss surrendering for a second, but now they're counting up guns and passing out ammo.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:14 PM on January 27, 2016

And trying to figure out which ammo goes with which gun. Good god.
posted by cortex at 3:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [17 favorites]

They're having some trouble matching mags with the guns that they go to, Rambo this is not. It's not really even Napoleon Dynamite, he had bow skills and nunchaku skills.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:17 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

CARL MADE OFF WITH THEIR 45 GUYS Kappa
posted by Talez at 3:17 PM on January 27, 2016

And trying to figure out which ammo goes with which gun. Good god.

Dammit, it won't go in! Anybody got a ball peen hammer?
posted by msalt at 3:17 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rambo this is not

It's kind of slipped over into Blazing Saddles.
posted by Miko at 3:18 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

This Blazing Saddles, right?
posted by Talez at 3:20 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Giant freedom eagles to whisk them all away.

Did someone say Giant Freedom Eagles?
posted by zakur at 3:26 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

They're not actually trying to burn it down, are they?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 3:28 PM on January 27, 2016

No the current video feed is not from buildings but from a location they drove to
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:30 PM on January 27, 2016

OregonLive is reporting that Ammon Bundy has communicated through his lawyer that the occupiers stand down.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:31 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Haha. Those Giant Freedom Eagles are fabulous.

Timestamp proves I hold copyright however -- Charles Buchanan will be hearing from the Common Law Sheriff.
posted by notyou at 3:32 PM on January 27, 2016

Someone double check that it's a real lawyer and not a Moon Lawyer.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:33 PM on January 27, 2016

Talez: Bundy and co are in jail until at least Friday.

Wait-- they might give them bail!? Isn't this the equivalent of a flight risk in that they might go hide on another compound somewhere and surround themselves with armed people?
posted by bluecore at 3:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

They're taking photos of themselves on Livestream, "OK, This is for America and the future and our children" .

I can see the future and, best case, it involves 20+ years in the Federal Penitentiary for all those yahoos.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:38 PM on January 27, 2016

Someone double check that it's a real lawyer and not a Moon Lawyer.

Actually, in what feels like a delicious bit of irony, everybody who was arrested apparently has court-appointed lawyers.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:38 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]

Law enforcement have done stupider things than letting them go on bail, I guess, so it's a possibility. Sigh...
posted by Artw at 3:42 PM on January 27, 2016

The criminal complaint (32page pdf)
posted by phoque at 3:46 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wish I thought to check this sooner: there's a temporary flight restriction over part of the refuge, up to 3000'. That's a standard FAA measure for keeping random planes out of the way of an operation, typically firefighting. It could also be to keep traffic away from FBI aircraft, to allow drone operation, or just to keep the media away. (That last reason happened in Ferguson, shamefully). This particular TFR started just a few hours ago and lasts for two weeks, but it can easily be extended or cancelled. Unfortunately I can't tell when it really started.
posted by Nelson at 3:47 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait-- they might give them bail!? Isn't this the equivalent of a flight risk in that they might go hide on another compound somewhere and surround themselves with armed people?

I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine that every defendant at an arraignment is probably entitled to have the judge *consider* the question of bail.

In this case, it was denied until a full hearing on the matter can be heard on Friday. One might imagine that it will likely be denied at that hearing as well.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 3:50 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

"One might imagine" a lot of things.

Just read this thread. It's full of instances where people have imagined all sorts of things.
posted by hippybear at 3:52 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Twitter's calling the remaining people the Branch Dildonians.
posted by mochapickle at 3:54 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

Twitter has been full of insults toward these people that blend various other terrorist or other sectarian causes with what is currently going on, to the detriment of actually understanding the situation that is unfolding in SE Oregon.
posted by hippybear at 3:57 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's a good point, hippybear. Thanks.
posted by mochapickle at 3:59 PM on January 27, 2016

"Branch Dildonians" is pretty funny, though.

But wrong, I know. So wrong.
Funny, but wrong.
posted by Floydd at 4:07 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Meh. Fuck 'em.
posted by Artw at 4:08 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Honestly, I couldn't resist the poetry of it and posted without thinking. Hippybear is right.
posted by mochapickle at 4:09 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Guardian view on the Oregon shootings: the right’s hell-raisers
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've really enjoyed the humor on YouTube and Twitter. People have been fiendishly clever, though of course most of the shots are cheap. I can still laugh. I don't find that it interferes with my actual understanding, but I do enjoy it as a counter to the head-shaking self-seriousness of the occupiers and some of their following.
posted by Miko at 4:10 PM on January 27, 2016 [13 favorites]

The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter.
posted by adamvasco at 4:18 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

Looks like the courts are going after them for the harassment of the Burns townspeople, possibly multiple counts:

The federal complains cites the extensive Facebook posts by Bundy and others about "tactical camping," alleged threats of following people home. For example, Jon Ritzheimer is accused to shouting, "You're BLM!" at a woman with a BLM shirt in the Safeway of Dec. 18, threatening to burn her house down.

I honestly hope they nail them for each and every single instance they threatened someone, like they did with they guy threatening the cops.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:26 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Rambo this is not

At one point They were talking amongst themselves about how the Feds "drew first blood" and one wag commented "First Blood Part Eleventy."

Ridicule is what these guys need.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:31 PM on January 27, 2016

Ridicule may be what they need or may be what this audience here on MetaFilter needs, but ridicule that ties them somehow to other groups who are doing things that are entirely unrelated to what this group is doing is only going to color the audience's perception of what they are doing in ways that is at minimum foolhardy to anyone trying to actually assess what is going on, or perhaps dangerous to either side when linked with movements that have nothing to do with what is actually going on.

Go ahead and make your jokes, but tying them to the Waco incident is no less wrong than tying them to ISIS. If you are clever enough you can make jokes that actually pertain to this particular situation that don't involve being so lazy as to draw false equivalencies. Otherwise, don't perpetuate the laziness of others.
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

Of course, there's an entire thread here of people opening that we should leave them be because they are just like Waco.
posted by Artw at 4:38 PM on January 27, 2016

Ryan Haas of OPB just tweeted this statement from Ammon Bundy:, from court:

First I want to address my beloved friend Lavoy Finnicum. Lavoy is one of the greatest men and greatest patriots I have ever seen. His love for this country ran deep through the blood he gave yesterday. And I mourn for him and his family. I’m praying for you. We will have more to say later but right now I am asking the federal government to allow the people at the refuge to go home without being prosecuted. To those remaining at the refuge, I love you. Let us take this fight from here. Please stand down. Go home and hug your families. This fight is ours for now in the courts. Please go home. Being in the system, we are going to take this opportunity to answer the questions on Art. 1, Section 8, Cause 17 of the Constitution regarding rights of statehood and the limits on federal property ownership. Thank you and god bless America.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:39 PM on January 27, 2016

Of course, there's an entire thread here of people opening that we should leave them be because they are just like Waco.

An entire thread? That seems like a bit of an exaggeration.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:40 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

that we should leave them be because they are just like Waco.

Um... what?
posted by hippybear at 4:40 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

That he thinks his Moon Law will have any relevance in court demonstrates again how deep the Moon Belief Sovereign Citizen logic goes, I guess.
posted by Archelaus at 4:41 PM on January 27, 2016

Artw, what moon thread are you reading??
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The complaint was full of examples of intimidation and harassment of local residents.
posted by humanfont at 4:44 PM on January 27, 2016

but ridicule that ties them somehow to other groups who are doing things that are entirely unrelated to what this group is doing is only going to color the audience's perception of what they are doing in ways that is at minimum foolhardy to anyone trying to actually assess what is going on, or perhaps dangerous to either side when linked with movements that have nothing to do with what is actually going on.

I do not believe people are going to be convinced that Vanilla ISIS are about Sharia Law and mediocre Hip-Hop.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:45 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

To those remaining at the refuge, I love you. Let us take this fight from here. Please stand down.

A rare moment of sanity here from Bundy. Although the fact that he thinks that they will get to walk away without prosecution is still telling as to his level of delusional thinking.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:46 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think this is all both horrifically sad and also a natural consequence of arresting the leaders who could keep the jumpier folk in check.

We've already seen blood spilled - I hope more can be avoided. At the very minimum, I hope the FBI follows the military's lead and lets noncombatants evacuate.
posted by corb at 4:46 PM on January 27, 2016

I hope the FBI follows the military's lead and lets noncombatants evacuate.

They did.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 4:48 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

That he thinks his Moon Law will have any relevance in court demonstrates again how deep the Moon Belief Sovereign Citizen logic goes, I guess.


you laugh at them now, but one day, the judge in all of his pantalooned glory and powdered wig will exclaim "by god, you are right," revoke all of the amendments, and let everyone can claim their 10 million dollar deposit that was made at the time of their birth.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:48 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

One of the leaders was plenty jumpy himself.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:48 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think this is all both horrifically sad and also a natural consequence of arresting the leaders who could keep the jumpier folk in check.

Those 'leaders' were the jumpiest of all of them, and also were the people threatening to murder law enforcement officers the loudest, including the guy who apparently actively tried to do so (or at the very least committed suicide by cop) when pulled over.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:51 PM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

Go ahead and make your jokes, but tying them to the Waco incident is no less wrong than tying them to ISIS.

The linguist in me is compelled to observe that I don't see this dynamic the same way at all. I don't see "Y'AllQaeda" or "Vanilla ISIS" or "Branch Dildonians" as making any sort of substantive equivalence, false or otherwise. Or at least not a naive one -- and in fact, a smart, intentional one if anything. There are some really important metonymic and metaphorical political points made by such expressions. The most important is to emphasize, as least with the jihadist references, that there are white American "terrorists." Our society reacts with terror and obsession with security over a concern with jihadist threats, whereas the Department of Justice was prevented by right wing outrage (incuding on Capitol Hill) from even publishing a substantial report on right wing domestic terrorism's growing threat. The Bundy Gang is not particularly religiously motivated (actually there are signs they are, by Mormon theology specifically, and many of their compatriots are by what they consider "Christianity"), but they are motivated by an inflexible dogmatic set of beliefs, the minority status of which only convince them of their own righteousness. They believe in the right to commit violence to advance those beliefs. They are patriarchal. They destroy cultural heritage treasures that offend them. They envision a new society based on their views. They appeal to tradition as a source of legitimacy. They are unrelentingly violently minded.

There's a lot in common with jihadist terrorism there. The analogy of course can be broken down quickly the other way too. But there is a specific contemporary American political argument enshrined in the puns that reference jihadism. It's not ignorant. It's perceptive. It's rhetorical and intentional. These guys are just as bad, why are we giving them a pass while we freak out about Muslim terrorists?

The argument for the Waco parallel might be weaker. But I seriously do not think anyone hearing or using the phrase "Branch Dildonian" is particularly likely to be confused about the difference.
posted by spitbull at 4:53 PM on January 27, 2016 [37 favorites]

Plenty of latitude was given for EVERYONE to evacuate. At this point anyone who dies super hardcore really wants to die with bells on.
posted by Artw at 4:54 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

> ... a natural consequence of arresting the leaders who could keep the jumpier folk in check.

I am repeatedly amazed by your ability to look at a moose and say that it is a snake.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:55 PM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]

I hope the FBI follows the military's lead and lets noncombatants evacuate.

They did.

Indeed. From here, following Bundy's arrest:

FBI Special Agent in Charge Greg Bretzing said “the armed occupiers were given ample opportunities to leave peacefully … They chose, instead, to threaten the very America they profess to love with violence, intimidation and criminal acts.”

“If the people (still) at the refuge want to leave, they can do so through the checkpoints where they will be identified.”

posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:58 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Honestly, Bundy asking everyone to go home is a great result, and I really hope the remainder surrender to the police.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:58 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

> ... and lets noncombatants evacuate.

Also, this is an amazing phrase, as every word in it other than "and" and "lets" is at least a mis-characterization if not an out-an-out falsehood. And I've got a few suspicions about "lets" too.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:59 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think this is all both horrifically sad and also a natural consequence of arresting the leaders who could keep the jumpier folk in check.

We've already seen blood spilled - I hope more can be avoided. At the very minimum, I hope the FBI follows the military's lead and lets noncombatants evacuate.

The dedication to this narrative that the occupiers could and can do no wrong really squicks me out. And ignoring the fact that law enforcement has already done this to what appears to be the best of their abilities, the public statements captured on tape from the occupiers both on and off the land, and the rhetoric from their allies really approaches Jade Helm levels of conspiracy thinking.

The revisionism, and the prior false equivalence between armed bigots and unarmed children, on display here is appalling.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:59 PM on January 27, 2016 [15 favorites]

corb, there are no "noncombatants" at the refuge. None of them just woke up there one morning, clueless as to how they got there.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:00 PM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

Aren't there still wives and potentially children there? Or have those gotten out?
posted by corb at 5:03 PM on January 27, 2016

Here's the criminal complaint.
posted by gamera at 5:03 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Absolutely no one argued there should be no action taken against them-- some of us, myself included, argued for de-escalation and negotiation first before a raid, because I think cornered all together, they might've gone into bunker fighting mode which could've killed a lot of law enforcement. When I make comparisons to Waco, I do so from a tactical perspective. I think one of the lessons from Waco is that many of members might've surrendered, but weren't given the chance by the leadership, so they were trapped when the buildings caught fire. That and you should take the opportunity to arrest the leadership when they were out of the compound. I think both of those lessons were implemented to a good effect in this case.
posted by bluecore at 5:04 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Their mighty "leader" has spoken and told them to give it up and go home, albeit from the jail cell where he belongs.

He "led" them right into the hole they're in, then abandoned them to blithely drive off into an ambush with all his chief officers. That's not leadership, that's a guy who's seen too many movies. If you're concerned about a leadership vacuum, you don't take every officer with you on the expedition and leave the enlisteds behind to die in the cul de sac.

It's not "sad," either, except for the innocent people it's affected severely -- the workers at the refuge, the community , the Paiute people, the American public that owns that land. There is nothing "sad" about a bunch of thugs getting their taste of justice. They have had a choice all along to step aside, put their arms down, and leave peacefully. Instead they have threatened, dug in, made impossible demands, and terrorized. I feel a lot more "sad" for the cop who has to live with having shot Lavoy Finicum than I do for Finicum or his family. Cop was doing his job. Finicum was committing suicide by cop in the course of committing a major crime.

I see no reason to feel "sad" -- in the sense of sympathetic, at any level -- with people waving guns around and threatening to kill the innocent. I don't feel sad when they go to jail. And I don't feel sad when they die when it is their choice to do so or not.

No one had to die. That someone has, and that others might, is all on Ammon Bundy and his minions. No sympathy. So they are ignorant fools, big deal. The world is full of ignorant fools who don't use guns to get their way. These men aren't underprivileged. They have no excuse. This is not "the only life they know." They aren't even from Eastern Oregon and not one of them is really a rancher for a living.
posted by spitbull at 5:04 PM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]

Kids are gone. I believe one wife remains, but obviously is a participant.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:05 PM on January 27, 2016

Aren't there still wives and potentially children there? Or have those gotten out?
posted by corb at 9:03 PM on January 27 [+] [!]

No. They and anyone else who wanted too left last night.

There is at least one women there who chose to to stay.
posted by Jalliah at 5:05 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Aren't there still wives and potentially children there?

'wives'? Why would they be innocent bystanders? If there are married women there, it's not clear why their martial status or their gender would automatically mean that they were not armed people unlawfully occupying a public building and threatening to shoot law enforcement.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:07 PM on January 27, 2016 [22 favorites]

Aren't there still wives and potentially children there? Or have those gotten out?

Any "wives" who remain there are adults, with full human agency. The children were, indeed, evacuated (I think that was in the livestream last night?). And again, as everyone has stated repeatedly, the people still at the refuge are totally free to leave but they will be identified at checkpoints.

That you continue to characterize people who illegally seized federal land, repeatedly threatened to kill federal agents, are brandishing weapons, and are saying things like "it's going to be a free-for-all armageddon" as "noncombatants" is troubling, to say the least.
posted by dialetheia at 5:07 PM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]

> Aren't there still wives and potentially children there? Or have those gotten out?
> posted by corb

Okay, good to know that you consider them to be "wives", not "women".
posted by benito.strauss at 5:08 PM on January 27, 2016 [15 favorites]

The only woman left, at least on the video, is armed and talking the same crazy suicidal shit as everyone else.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:08 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jason Patrick, leader of the refuge occupants for 24 hours, is surrendering, according to Stewart Rhodes of Oath Keepers.

At least one remaining is walking out to surrender, the others left have apparently been given a deadline to make their choice. At this point it pretty clear anyone choosing to stay is picking blaze of "glory" over going home alive.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:11 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Given the publicly stated religious background of many of the men on social media and other platforms, I don't know that it's necessarily fair to classify any and all females who might have been in the compound as having independent agency when it comes to them being there.

The one female who does remain, however, seems to be doing so of her own accord and so the patronymic "wife" within this context does not necessarily apply to her. She's a woman making her own choices.
posted by hippybear at 5:12 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Given that a number of these people appear to be extremist mormons, I could see the wives having less autonomy and even culpability in this situation. They've been told all their lives to obey their husbands.

on preview: jinx
posted by ryanrs at 5:15 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Thanks, hippybear, that was in fact my concern.
posted by corb at 5:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'd love to know how big brave cowboy badasses Ryan Bundy and Lavoy Finicum decided to bring an 18 year old Kansan woman there to sing with her family band along on the ride to John Day in the same truck as three armed wanted felons with targets on their asses. How messed up will she be by having witnessed Lavoy's death? How much agency did she have with her mother's decision to drag the family (minus the kid that was taken away from her for her failures as a parent) to an active crime scene in support of the criminals? Obviously not much, as the cops let her go right away.

Culture of honor my ass. They were hiding behind a teenager.

Just everything they have done reeks of cowardice, making the cowboy/soldier/"culture of honor" posing that much more utterly disingenuous and inauthentic.
posted by spitbull at 5:18 PM on January 27, 2016 [15 favorites]

I wonder for how long OGC guy will be disappointed that no Navy Seals came parachuting to their rescue (or anyone else for that matter)? Will he be a jailhouse Debbie Downer?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:20 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Their new leader,Jason Patrick, has decided to give up according to @LesZaits on Twitter. Things appear to be wrapping up without further violence.
posted by humanfont at 5:20 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Their new leader,Jason Patrick

This remake of Lost Boys is totally deviating from canon.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:29 PM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

Audio of meeting in John Day that Bundy's were supposed to attend. Church family did perform. Eventually the room learns of the arrests and death. Nothing of great insight, but another fragment in the puzzle.
posted by phoque at 5:30 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

This remake of Lost Boys is totally deviating from canon.

Speed 3: Lose(r) Control

"There's a bunch of dildos in a wildlife refuge. What d'ya do, hotshot? What d'ya do?"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:33 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

i have known and am related to loooooooots of mormon prepper wives and i have pretty much never seen a situation where the women weren't fully participating in all aspects of what the husband believed. it is a very patriarchal church, but just like most of the marriages you know about, people get together because they share interests. if anything, the women are far more involved in the logistical planning of food, clothes, weapons storage, etc.
posted by nadawi at 5:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [17 favorites]

Multiple reports of a convoy of unmarked vehicles leaving the refuge and arriving at the courthouse. Might have been a mass surrender.

Let's hope that's it and all the idiots laid down their guns and dildos when the FBI showed up.

If that's the case, it's not clear why this exact result couldn't have happened 2 weeks ago, and let's see about the follow through. A LOT of these guys deserve a LOT of charges with YEARS of jail time. Very open question whether any of them will get any at all, or we wait 16 months for the next cycle to repeat when they all walk free.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:42 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm worried about those dogs. It's going to take them a long time to clear those buildings because of fear of booby traps/explosives. I hope the dogs were evacuated by someone surrendering.
posted by bluecore at 5:45 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Let's hope that's it and all the idiots laid down their guns and dildos when the FBI showed up.

If you're mathowie, they are one and the same.
posted by hippybear at 5:45 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ammon Bundy court sketch

Others are here
posted by phoque at 5:45 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you're mathowie, they are one and the same.

Oh, please please please do some dildo/gun replacements on the photos of the Bundyites.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:47 PM on January 27, 2016

Well, you don't know what we occupied
Why don't you come with me little girl
Under magic tarp I hide
posted by humanfont at 5:47 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]

This lawmaker compared dead Oregon occupier LaVoy Finicum to Moses and Jesus
posted by hippybear at 5:53 PM on January 27, 2016

We certainly are learning a lot about people who shouldn't be holding public office this way.
posted by Artw at 5:54 PM on January 27, 2016 [13 favorites]

David Fry was streaming until moments ago, though it was all dark so it was unclear where he was.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:00 PM on January 27, 2016

Oh good, yet another person with some form of authority who totally shouldn't have it. They didn't get there without support, though - and this is what worries me... There are enough people like her, like the Sheriff of the neighboring county and his cohorts in the "Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association", like Michelle Fiore - people who have just enough power, enough of a voice - and due to their position, just enough legtimacy - to push these directly anti-government views to others and be heard.

From the wapo article linked above:

many of those who operate outside the box and promote love and justice over the current form of government

I don't see how threatening BLM officials and claiming that you will shoot any federal officer who tries to stop you or literally anything else that has happened during this occupation is promoting this. Save the christ-like comparisons for someone who actually acts more like him in ways outside of dying for a cause.
posted by MysticMCJ at 6:09 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

From the wapo article linked above:

many of those who operate outside the box and promote love and justice over the current form of government


I am, at heart, a pretty old-school hippie. And I know what it means to promote love and justice above other things. I know this both socially and governmentally. This politician woman is speaking out of her ass claiming that anything she is talking about is actually any of those things.

Finicum was shot down by the FBI because he was breaking the law in pursuit of entirely selfish claims (that ranchers be allowed to let their livestock destroy habitat without any remuneration, monetary or ecologically, to the greater public for the damage the livestock caused to the ecosystem).

Fighting for love and justice... well, if Finicum had been killed in Seattle marching against an armed squadron of police who were moving to break up a tent city of homeless people... I might believe that a bit more.

Love and justice? I know what love and justice is. I have seen it, and tasted it, and have participated in its forwarding in the culture and its defense against the powers who desire profit and selfishness.

What this woman has written discloses a great misunderstanding about exactly what the words she is using actually mean. And perhaps also a great divide in the US public about what these words actually mean within the context of American society.

I will always fight for love and I will always stand for equality and I will always hope for good to prevail. It might be hope against hope, but I know what I believe. I might be called "faithless" for not having a religion but I have a moral compass that always points toward what is right and good, and what she has written is not it. Neither does what these criminals with guns do point toward that true north. Love and justice and right and good are not and are never about "what is best for me". It is always toward "what is best for us, and that means more than just the humans".
posted by hippybear at 6:21 PM on January 27, 2016 [21 favorites]

Finicum is not a martyr, he committed suicide by police.
posted by Oyéah at 6:22 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fuck their "love" and "Justice" if they involve handing over public lands at the point of a gun.
posted by Artw at 6:25 PM on January 27, 2016

T.D. Strange: "If that's the case, it's not clear why this exact result couldn't have happened 2 weeks ago, and let's see about the follow through. "

An argument can be made that the best course of action was to let these guys wind down and become complacent. Considering no storming of the occupied building was necessary; no one was hurt except for they guys wielding guns and then only one death. De-escalation seemed to have worked.

Personally I'd like to see a lot more cases handled like this and less SWAT teams with flash bangs killing people's dogs. Hundreds of people killed by cops in the US every year would instead probably live.
posted by Mitheral at 6:25 PM on January 27, 2016 [11 favorites]

Finicum is not a martyr, he committed suicide by police.

Even that is a charitable interpretation.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:26 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

>I will always fight for love and I will always stand for equality and I will always hope for good to prevail.

Are you Sailor Moon ?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:26 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

Post a reply on Facebook to her horrible bullshit then.
posted by Windopaene at 6:27 PM on January 27, 2016

> Finicum is not a martyr

Not to us -- I hope it didn't seem that I was implying otherwise. Unfortunately, there are several in the fringe organizations who supported their actions who will seem him that way, as evidenced by this Nevada "lawmaker," because that's what they want to see.
posted by MysticMCJ at 6:27 PM on January 27, 2016

Post a reply on Facebook to her horrible bullshit then.

Dear lord, you want me to have a Boot in my Face forever in the form of Faceboot by signing up to that horrible service?

No, I won't.
posted by hippybear at 6:31 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sorry hippybear, some of us got lured in long ago, and use it to monitor our children. Didn't mean to offend!
posted by Windopaene at 6:37 PM on January 27, 2016

Surely you would have a book in your face forever.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Is this the part where we all meet up at Shari's to debrief over breakfast?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:38 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

In the current (and possibly last) live feed the militants are now sitting around the campfire and complaining about the cell signal #FIrstWorldTerroristProblems

Edit : live stream just cut off as Fry complains about the horrible YouTube comments. NEVER look at the comments !!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:38 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Finicum was shot down by the FBI because he was breaking the law in pursuit of entirely selfish claims (that ranchers be allowed to let their livestock destroy habitat without any remuneration, monetary or ecologically, to the greater public for the damage the livestock caused to the ecosystem).

Well, no. He was shot because he threatened to murder and then attempted to attack the LEOs arresting him.

They wanted to arrest him because of all the stuff you state. But that's not why they shot him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:39 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Well, live stream is back up, at a campfire someplace. So not everyone is in custody. Fry says he had no warrants, was allowed to walk free?

I'm VERY skeptical ANY of these guys will see charges at all, even the ones now in custody. Conspiracy to impede is weaksauce, that won't stick on its own, it's the federal equivalent of trumped up resisting arrest. They're all going to walk. No harm no foul because white guys in an election year.

Wrap it up everyone, things are exactly as cynical as you thought from the beginning.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:40 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

T.D. Fry actually has an outstanding warrant in Ohio - I believe it was mentioned upstream somewhere here. Something about smoking dope and/or swimming in a river without a life jacket.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:45 PM on January 27, 2016

>I'm VERY skeptical ANY of these guys will see charges at all, even the ones now in custody.

I think the exact opposite. They're going to throw the book at these guys.
posted by andoatnp at 6:45 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

No campfire songs? No s'mores? One chartreuse buzzard....
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:45 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

The GF: And now they have the Yule Log going...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:48 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Per Amanda Peacher of OPB Fry hasn't left. At least five people are still there, sitting around a camp fire.

The @RealDavidFry twitter account - that talked about leaving - is fake, if that wasn't clear.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:49 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry told reporter Amanda Peach that there are 5 people left at the refuge and they expect to die.

But his own tweets suggest he's giving up. Hilariously, that tweet comes about 30 minutes after this claim that he WILL NOT STAND DOWN.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 PM on January 27, 2016

Campfire song:

Each day I face
the barren waste
without a cellphone signal
Clear signal
Old Dan and I
with throats burned dry
and souls that cry
for a signal
cool, clear, signal

The nights are cool
and I'm a fool
each star's a tool for a signal
Clear signal
And with the dawn
I wake and yawn
and carry on to find a signal
cool, clear, signal


Keep a-streamin' Dan,
don't you listen to him Dan,
He's a devil not a man
and he spreads the burning sand wth signal,
Dan can you see that big, green tree
where the signal's running free
and it's waiting there for you and me,
Signal, cool, clear, signal

The shadows sway and seem to say,
tonight we pray for signal,
Strong signal
And way up there
He'll hear our prayer
and show us where there's a signal
Cool, clear signal
posted by Floydd at 6:52 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I got the impression Finicum was in a firefight with the state police, not the FBI.

Realise fundamentalism harks back to a form of sharia. I has the same roots. Part of the desperation of the ranchers is they have more children than they can support by regular means.

I knew a woman, who along with her sister, was one of ten wives. Each wife had at least 10 children. She took her kids and left. The big man used his kids as slave labor in a construction business.

Finicum used the money from foster parenting, to support his eleven children. He was in a hurry to die. He seemed to take over the public face of the militia a week ago. I assume he decided to end it then.
posted by Oyéah at 6:53 PM on January 27, 2016

And I'd be shocked if everybody in custody walks away from this with no time served.

I see no need to arrest everybody; the FBI is trying to clear the Refuge, not punish people for being naughty. It absolutely makes sense that they are encouraging people to leave; that makes any final confrontation that much less dangerous.

They've got plenty of things they can charge Ammon Bundy and the others in custody with and actually get convictions. That's not true of every single person who spent a night at the Refuge.
posted by mountmccabe at 6:54 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

At this point, I just want to know if the dogs are OK. That beagle from one of Fry's earlier videos is adorable.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:54 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

But his own tweets suggest he's giving up. Hilariously, that tweet comes about 30 minutes after this claim that he WILL NOT STAND DOWN.

I return to my previous statements that sometimes people say things about intending violence but do not mean them. The same could also be true about a claim of surrender, though, so…
posted by Going To Maine at 6:55 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

So right now the remaining militants are sitting around the campfire and saying things like "Wait for the miracle!" and "What have we done to deserve this? " (I kid you not) and "We're only fighting for the Constitution"

It's pitiful and it's sad but I hope each and every one of them spends a very long time locked away.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:56 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I believe there was also some chatter about god delivering their requested miracle via moonbeams.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:59 PM on January 27, 2016

> Campfire song

There's a Taps / tarps joke to be made here if someone's more creative than I am...
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:00 PM on January 27, 2016

There's a Taps / tarps joke to be made here if someone's more creative than I am...


YouTubers have explored every angle there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:01 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Unrelated (?) Red Dawn is wrapping up on AMC.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:02 PM on January 27, 2016

Animals: "Charging Bear was Shot with His Hands Up!"
posted by msalt at 7:05 PM on January 27, 2016

But his own tweets suggest he's giving up. Hilariously, that tweet comes about 30 minutes after this claim that he WILL NOT STAND DOWN.

I don't think that account is real, it only has 18 tweets and the first is after the recent arrests and death.
posted by Drinky Die at 7:06 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

At this point, I just want to know if the dogs are OK.

At this point, I want to know if the dildos are OK. Left alone in a strange place, exposed to a harsh climate, are they being properly cared for? I doubt it.
#alldildosmatter
posted by happyroach at 7:12 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

The @RealDavidFry twitter account - that talked about leaving - is fake, if that wasn't clear.

Ah, sorry. I missed that. How do we know that it's fake?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:12 PM on January 27, 2016

Well it's coherent for one thing
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]

You know I just want these guys to have their campfire bonding time and then just leave so people like Sheriff Ward can relax and get a few nights of decent sleep.
posted by Jalliah at 7:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

#alldildosmatter

If they escape into the refuge, they could do tremendous damage

think asian carp, but cocks
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

There has been a recognition in the last century or so, but particularly since Robert Altemeyer's work, that most groups are motivated by a core of "natural leaders" who score high on certain psychological indeces. These are the people who not only have the vision to do grand and maybe evil things, they can persuade the other 95% of us to follow them under a lot of circumstances. Most of us would like to think we wouldn't be good Nazis or pass out Jim Jones' koolaid or shack up in Waco or Ruby Ridge, but the lesson of history is that most of us actually would in the presence of someone with a particular kind of persuasive personality.

It's obvious now that the strategy in Oregon has been to identify and take out as many of these leaders as possible all at once when they were not in a position to communicate with the rest of the group. And while the remaining die-hards aren't just surrendering just yet they obviously have no cohesive plan nor any possibility of forming one; they're in agreement with the core idea of running and fighting but everyone has different ideas and they're fumbling at every turn. They're still dangerous but not nearly as dangerous as they were with someone who could coordinate their efforts.

I suspect the legal books will be thrown at the leaders but the rest might be shown some leniency because they are mostly harmless without someone to cat-herd them in some common direction. The big problem is that their delusional structure probably makes them too paranoid to just walk out past the roadblock because they won't believe the promise of safe passage. At some point though they have to sleep and their adrenaline levels will crash, at which point they might be picked up with minimal risk to anybody.

I hope that by tomorrow at least the authorities will be securing the buildings at Malheur so they can clear it as a crime scene and let the caretakers back in to start cleaning up the mess these idiots have made.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:19 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

The (debatable) Twitter account ... it popped up last night when everything was going nuts and he had started streaming but had to uninstall Facebook to free up enough space to stream. Twitter seemed like it was a replacement feed. The updates have been in his style and falling between streams when he was with his phone. It is following a lot of news organizations, but the number of female reporters (seemingly randomly picked is weird ... but then again, his comportment hasn't been exactly straight forward). I wouldn't discount it entirely yet ... but wouldn't put huge stock in it either. Something to still watch and analyze.
posted by phoque at 7:22 PM on January 27, 2016

At least one of the militants by the campfire is seriously drunk now (seriously). Spouting off about how he is "seriously rich" and a "porn star" and "We're Golden!"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:23 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Now drunk guy is telling a story about him and his big bag of dope. Just admitted he has a big bag right now on site and is offering it to the rest. Woman is going "oh yeah!"

They are smoking up a bowel right now. I do not see what could possibly go wrong.

It's better than anything than I could ever imagine.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:27 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

They are smoking up a bowel right now.

This explains why they are so full of shit, at least.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:29 PM on January 27, 2016 [20 favorites]

A bowel!! Ewwwww
posted by Jalliah at 7:29 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's okay, AGameOfMoans, weed is legal in Oregon now.

Edit: although, probably not on Federal land within Oregon, come to think of it...
posted by genehack at 7:30 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Video is showing them toking up - small snippets of their faces lighting up in the dark momentarily. David is getting paranoid and saying things like "What's that sound!?? " now.

I am not making any of this up.
Now they are praying after toking.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:31 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Oh gene - I'm cool with the weed - it's just weed and militants with guns that seem like a SUPER bad idea somehow.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:31 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel a sudden urge to listen to One Toke Over the Line.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:32 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

So I had to turn the feed back on once I read the pot had come out and they just were getting into some sorta philosphical stuff and it died. Nooo! I actually wanted to finish hearing that!
posted by Jalliah at 7:33 PM on January 27, 2016

Bless us Oh Lord, for this Thy spliff, that we are about to receive.
posted by stevis23 at 7:33 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Good news - the major Patriot organizations have all issued "stand by" or "stand down" orders to their people in response to calls to action over the deaths.
posted by corb at 7:38 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm back, too, and checking the feed. It's like checking on goldfish. Tipsy, high goldfish in the dark.

Regarding the charges: Is it possible more charges are coming and they are holding back to give the remaining occupiers a glimmer of hope to surrender before throwing the rest of the book at them?
posted by mochapickle at 7:38 PM on January 27, 2016

Revised Shari's plan: If those in custody today, plus all current occupiers, have not all been (or are in the midst of being) prosecuted for felony charges within six months, I will personally pay the Shari's debriefing tab of anyone claiming allegiance to Team No Charges in this thread. This may be redeemed at any Portland area Shari's at whatever date in August is decided on by TNC.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:39 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

I suspect the legal books will be thrown at the leaders but the rest might be shown some leniency because they are mostly harmless without someone to cat-herd them in some common direction.

Yea, I'm pretty sure being a sheeple isn't and shouldn't be a legal defense. The patsys are just as guilty as the leaders.

I'd love to see everyone who set foot on that refuge or posted in support on facebook charged and thrown away for 10+, that's the only thing that will curtail their terrorist movement, and pussyfooting the first time was what led directly to this episode to begin with.

But at this point I'll believe it when I see the sentencing orders.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:39 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

There was only one death.
posted by Jalliah at 7:40 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm pretty sure I saw them kill off at least a gram a few minutes ago
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:44 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

"The Pacific Patriots Network is issuing an immediate “STAND BY” Order to all those who are mobilizing to the peaceful city of Burns, Oregon. We will not pursue any action until all of the facts have been pieced together regarding the traffic stop and the arrest of Ammon Bundy. During this time, cooler heads must prevail. We do not wish to inflame the current situation and will engage in open dialogue until all of the facts have been gathered."
posted by corb at 7:45 PM on January 27, 2016

Recreational weed is legal in Oregon.

Not sure about whether it has to be purchased at a state-sanctioned store or not, though.
posted by hippybear at 7:46 PM on January 27, 2016

The patsys are just as guilty as the leaders.

Well legally they might be. But we've spent seventy years finding out that they probably aren't, really.

After WWII the psych guys charged with returning low-level Nazis to society found that the most effective way to deprogram them was to simply ask them to explain their own beliefs. In the absence of their leaders, they would gradually find the holes in their own belief systems with minimal guidance and in a few days realize how badly they'd been manipulated and what fools they'd been.

It is the magic of leadership that a leader can keep you from seeing those things which are obvious when you think about them too much. People who don't have that talent can't lead, and people who do can potentially lead anybody to do anything. It probably shouldn't be a crime to be "anybody."
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:48 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'd love to see everyone who [..] posted in support on facebook charged and thrown away for 10+

I hate facebook too, man, but damn.
posted by ryanrs at 7:50 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

After WWII the psych guys charged with returning low-level Nazis to society found that the most effective way to deprogram them was to simply ask them to explain their own beliefs. In the absence of their leaders, they would gradually find the holes in their own belief systems with minimal guidance and in a few days realize how badly they'd been manipulated and what fools they'd been.

They're not soldiers. They weren't compelled to be there by anyone. They, all of them, chose to be there and do what they did. They could have left at any time - and many did. That argument simply will not fly.

Being a stupid asshole is not a viable legal defence.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:54 PM on January 27, 2016 [16 favorites]

in new live stream the militants confirm that they are never going to give up:(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

Red Thoughts, as I said before the law probably agrees with you. But the fool here is you if you think you are immune to the kind of influence that made these people follow this stupid doctrine. The world is full of people who thought they were immune to such influence until the right influential character came along and seduced them. At our core we are not rational actors, we are animals with all the baggage of hard-wired dominance and submission and other impulses that we can't entirely turn off no matter how smart we are. And we are most vulnerable to such influence when we think we are immune.

I have warded off influential psychopaths several times not because I am smart -- although I am very smart -- but because I have scars. There is nothing to be gained by putting the munchkins in jail once we know who the directive leaders are. The munchkins might go find more leaders, but they're only slightly more likelyto do that than you or I. History is clear on this.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Serious question: prior to today's roadblocks, etc, did law enforcement ever go to the refuge and tell the people there to leave?
posted by ryanrs at 8:06 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

All the tens of thousands of people serving hard time for low level drug crimes across the nation will be delighted to learn of our legal system's newfound enlightenment. It was only the leaders on top of the pyramid who deserved time.

Please. That's not how America works in any other context.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:07 PM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

Serious question: prior to today's roadblocks, etc, did law enforcement ever go to the refuge and tell the people there to leave?

No, because the armed antigovernment militants would have pointed and maybe shot rifles at them. Or held them hostage or something.

They did meet offsite.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:11 PM on January 27, 2016

Presumably it was mentioned during the "negotiations".
posted by Artw at 8:13 PM on January 27, 2016

As someone who has been involved in a fair bit of civil disobedience and direct action, free speech gets you a lot of leeway. And this was undeniably an act of political speech.

On the other hand, guns and threats of violence remove a lot of leeway. But I wouldn't be that surprised of the Feds prosecuted the guys they arrested at the roadblock and didn't bother going after the people who left the refuge on their own.
posted by ryanrs at 8:13 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The extent of the vandalism has not been revealed yet.
posted by Artw at 8:15 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Also they quite merrily vandalized away without the "leaders".
posted by Artw at 8:15 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

And some of them broadcast themselves vandalizing government property. I haven't seen the live stream so maybe they were careful not to show their faces but I don't think that's going to cut it.
posted by rdr at 8:19 PM on January 27, 2016

ryanrs, the Oregon constitutional protections regarding freedom of speech go far beyond the federal 1st amendment. Still, we're a ways from excusing criminal actions because they're ostensibly committed with the purpose of political speech (you see the limits of political speech being punctuated by threats of violence, no?).
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:20 PM on January 27, 2016

I can see some civil actions being likely, also, but they probably just laugh at those.
posted by Artw at 8:21 PM on January 27, 2016

Good news - the major Patriot organizations have all issued "stand by" or "stand down" orders to their people in response to calls to action over the deaths.

Whew! Thank heaven! They were totally all almost about to do something there, just then! They must have been just waiting for an even more plaintive, more sincere wail for support than what we've been hearing from this encampment for the last 18 hours. What a close call - thank goodness sanity prevailed and the millions of patriot hordes are restraining themselves!
posted by Miko at 8:26 PM on January 27, 2016 [18 favorites]

Vandalism is pretty weak-sauce, so it's possible the feds wouldn't even bother with that.

Note that I'm not advocating this as an optimal outcome. But I see a lot of parallels with stuff I myself did many years ago (though not with guns, and for in my view better causes). If the Feds can drop really solid charges on the leaders, then they might very well not bother with so-so charges against the low-level riffraff. The Feds can be sort of lazy like that.
posted by ryanrs at 8:27 PM on January 27, 2016

But I see a lot of parallels with stuff I myself did many years ago (though not with guns, and for in my view better causes).

The "not with guns" part makes a really big difference, though.
posted by dialetheia at 8:29 PM on January 27, 2016 [13 favorites]

My weapon of choice was a bicycle.
posted by ryanrs at 8:30 PM on January 27, 2016

Some people feel very threatened by bicycles, you know.
posted by ryanrs at 8:31 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is high-larious. Even as they sit around toking and popping beers and peeing in the weeds, they're continuing to rehash and revisit what's going to happen to them when the feds bust in.

Bringer Tom has it. These folks are headless chickens.

"I tell you what. I've got a bank account. Big as the fucking sky. And I don't want it. I want to go sit by my God. Fuck this life. It doesn't matter how much you have. I'm a reality TV star! I like to think of myself as Jeff Bana."

"You're a porn star, aren't ya?"

"Yeah I've got a really little, tiny dick, but they eat it up."

"Hey, be respectful. We got God in here."

"Don't worry about God. He knows where I am. Where I come from. Don't worry about me and respect for God."

[actual dialogue]
posted by Miko at 8:32 PM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

Vandalism is pretty weak-sauce, so it's possible the feds wouldn't even bother with that.

Of irreplaceable cultural artifacts? Not a bet I'd take, TBH.
posted by Artw at 8:32 PM on January 27, 2016

If nothing else the archaeological resources protection act provides for 1 year for a first time violation. There's hours of video of them digging trenches with an excavator.

You know, putting aside the whole armed conspiracy to overthrow the government or whatever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:32 PM on January 27, 2016

The Feds don't actually give a shit about cultural artifacts.
posted by ryanrs at 8:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, a prayer now.

David: "I'll lead a prayer! I'll use their original Hebrew names."

Woman: "We follow that."

David: "Father Yah, and mother Yah, and brother Joshua..we pray that you lead us to a better life, better morals, better standards. And here we are fighting for our faith. I hope you see that and give each of us an honest chance in a kingdom with your presence. Amen."

Other man: "Amen. How you say it?"

David: "Hallelujah."

Other man: "Hallelujah. Praise be to God. It was an inspirational prayer, it really was."

David: "The truth of the matter is, we probably might really die. But it's what he guides you in the next phase...."

Other man: "You gotta get somewhere to go somewhere."

David: "Right."

Other Man: "And I wanna go somewhere. So if I gotta go somewhere to get somewhere, then I already came here now, let's go somewhere."

David: "I guess everybody here is maybe the kind of a person who in this world, doesn't have much to offer?"

Other man: "I don't know what's the fate of our stance, but...it doesn't matter at this point."

Feed cuts out.
posted by Miko at 8:46 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

> But the fool here is you if you think you are immune to the kind of influence that made these people follow this stupid doctrine. The world is full of people who thought they were immune to such influence until the right influential character came along and seduced them. At our core we are not rational actors, we are animals with all the baggage of hard-wired dominance and submission and other impulses that we can't entirely turn off no matter how smart we are.

I'm not claiming to be immune to animal instincts. In fact I tend to agree with you about people being driven more by their non-rational natures much more than they would like to admit. Which is why I want all of the "followers" to get some serious punishment. That way, the next time some "leader" suggests they load up their guns and go terrorize a small rural city they won't have happy memories of that camping trip in Winter 2016 where they got to hang out with a bunch of cool new friends, I want them to remember the Spring, Summer, and Fall of 2016 when they were miserable in jail. When they hear the word 'militia' I want their lizard brains to twitch in fear.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:53 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

[actual dialogue]

Worst stoner talk ever.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

in new live stream the militants confirm that they are never going to give up:(

Hmmmm. Are you sure? Because they already:
- let you down
- ran around
- deserted you (most of them, anyway)
- made (some of) you cry
- and some saaaaaid goodbye
- they told lots of lies, and
- said they'd hurt you (if you tried to make them leave).
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:56 PM on January 27, 2016 [20 favorites]

Well, now we know why they needed all those snacks.

They were outgunned, outmanned, outnumbered, outplanned.
posted by rtha at 8:56 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Worst stoner talk ever.

It's true. And that was a small sample. The stream went down again, and of course now it's going to take David twice as long to realize it and reboot it.

It's funny how familiar the vibe is. I was a camp counselor and outdoor educator for many years, and spent many nights in just such a scenario, minus the milennialism, guns, delusions of granduer, and federal building takeover, and can understand the wonderful seduction and feeling of camaraderie they have right now, drunk under the Western stars. I just wish they knew they didn't have to go to all this idiotic, vandalistic, murderous trouble to get that experience. I could see recutting this livestream with this as a soundtrack - it's perfect:

I have to say it now, it's been a good life all in all
It's really fine to have the chance to hang around
To lie there by the fire, and watch the evening tire
While all my friends and my old lady sit and pass the pipe around,

And talk of poems, prayers and promises, and things that we believe in
How sweet it is to love someone, how right it is to care
How long it's been since yesterday, and what about tomorrow?
What about our dreams, and all the memories we share?
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, now we know why they needed all those snacks.

They were outgunned, outmanned, outnumbered, outplanned.

HERE COMES THE GENERAL (call to stand down from your imprisoned leader).

RISE UP! (no, go home, you idiots - didn't you hear me?)
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:00 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Before they surrender, can we fly an armored helicopter over top? Might be a chance of getting some small arms fire on video, which would be criminally actionable.
posted by ctmf at 9:01 PM on January 27, 2016

Let's not. Because intentionally putting people in situations where they will commit crimes is a bullshit move no matter who it's done to.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:03 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

Has anyone there slept? It seems like the same people have been up all day and most if not all of last night.

David Fry was on interviewed on a vlog last night. (I have no idea who Lapakko is.) The interviewer was repeatedly like, David, buddy, you gotta get out of there. But David was resolved to dying there, as if there were no other option.

And he's fixated on going to heaven and leaving all this behind.
posted by mochapickle at 9:04 PM on January 27, 2016

He could use some help. Seems a bit of a lost soul.
posted by Miko at 9:06 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

The interviewer was repeatedly like, David, buddy, you gotta get out of there. But David was resolved to dying there, as if there were no other option.

Maybe the FBI is just waiting until they get so drunk and stoned that they fall asleep, and then they can go and cuff them while they are passed out.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:06 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

Or draw on their faces.
posted by Miko at 9:07 PM on January 27, 2016 [27 favorites]

Or write in the dirt: "This is the ghost of LaVoy. It's OK to surrender."
posted by mochapickle at 9:08 PM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

Both, obvs.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:08 PM on January 27, 2016

Or, the FBI could quietly confiscate all the guns, put the dildos in their sleeping hands, withdraw, and then proceed with a big noisy raid.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:10 PM on January 27, 2016 [27 favorites]

Opsec is remarkably shoddy. Down to 5(?) remaining "warriors", all decide to get drunk/stoned after not having slept in ~36hours. Around a campfire on an open prairie visible for 5+ miles. Who takes first watch? Is anyone on watch? Surely one of these jokers left has played D&D.

You know what, Bringer Tom was right. They're too dumb to deserve jail time after all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:13 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

That vlog interview mochapickle linked to...wow. He's very preoccupied with being sodomized; he's saying that's why they've all decided they can't go to prison, because they'll be "sodomized by Big Bubba." He also predicts that those who don't resist the government will become "slaves" and will also be sodomized.
posted by Miko at 9:16 PM on January 27, 2016

T.D. Strange: Opsec is remarkably shoddy. Down to 5(?) remaining "warriors", all decide to get drunk/stoned after not having slept in ~36hours. Around a campfire on an open prairie visible for 5+ miles. Who takes first watch? Is anyone on watch? Surely one of these jokers left has played D&D.

Eh. I suspect these guys know they're fuuuuuuuuuuuucked and no amount of opsec could possibly help them now, so they're just enjoying the last little bit of time they have before doom comes. Which won't be very doomy doom unless they have loads of priors or warrants or something (or try to fight), but they don't know that.
posted by Mitrovarr at 10:13 PM on January 27, 2016

I think they all fell asleep. The live feed hasn't updated with a new bit for the longest it's been in 24 hours.
posted by RedEmma at 10:19 PM on January 27, 2016

Before they surrender, can we fly an armored helicopter over top?

O.k., but might I propose an alternative?

If ever there was a time for Amazon drones: now is the time. Bearing nothing but packages containing a tantalizing selection of dildos. Bezos can afford this.

NOW IS THE TIME.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:28 PM on January 27, 2016 [3 favorites]

your daring plan has been foiled by the temporary flight restriction
posted by ryanrs at 10:30 PM on January 27, 2016

although I guess Bezos could bombard them with dildos from 3100 ft
posted by ryanrs at 10:31 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bezos can afford to send enough that not every single one can be shot down. The dildos must get through at all costs. It's the only way to end this.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:32 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let's call it the Fast, Cheap and Out of Control way of resolving it.

Okay, it wouldn't be cheap, but Bezos has the cash.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:34 PM on January 27, 2016

Maybe the FBI is just waiting until they get so drunk and stoned that they fall asleep, and then they can go and cuff them while they are passed out.

I think all the FBI needs to do at this point is wait for them to run out of weed. A day or two sitting around the nature preserve without a bowl will end this standoff quickly enough.
posted by mikelieman at 10:35 PM on January 27, 2016

According to KOIN News, eight people left the compound since this morning. Five were released and three were arrested:

Duane Ehmer, 45 - Duane is from Morrow County in northern Oregon and had been there since the beginning. This YouTube video (sketchy "End Times News" channel; from outside the compound?) claims he was carrying around LaVoy's pistol this morning. Arrested at 3:30 p.m.

Dylan Anderson, 34, of Provo, Utah, a.k.a. Captain Moroni. Arrested at 3:30 p.m.

Jason Patrick, 43, of Georgia was arrested at either 7:40 or 8:40 p.m. depending on the source. He had been the most recent leader of the group since last night's events.
posted by mochapickle at 10:37 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Feds don't actually give a shit about cultural artifacts.

Eh, it's another tool in the prosecutor's box, although I agree most of the DOJ lawyers don't know much about prosecuting crimes under ARPA. It's also hard to build a case, because the distinction between misdemeanor and felony depends on proving the value of the damaged site.

That said, given sufficient incentive, that will be one of the charges.

These guys did a LOT of damage, to natural & cultural resources, and to the infrastructure of the Refuge. With luck, they'll be held accountable for that.
posted by suelac at 10:45 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

although I guess Bezos could bombard them with dildos from 3100 ft

aka "Rods from God".
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:47 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

aka "Rods from God".

*cue Barry White voice*

"Hey there, all you patriots. It's the love from above. Oh yeah."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:59 PM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]

The Feds don't actually give a shit about cultural artifacts.

I take that back. Billy J. Williams, the US Attorney for the District of Oregon, was previously a Tribal Liason for the DOJ. So he is probably knowledgable about ARPA, and may indeed give a shit.
posted by ryanrs at 11:09 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

One thing I've figured out over the years is that prosecutors don't actually need to give a shit about the charges, they just need to press them.
posted by ckape at 11:18 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]

Has anyone heard an explanation why 3 were charged and the other five released? Looks like a partial victory for Team No Charges.

I haven't really picked a team but I love to Shari's debrief idea. I did a comedy bit about these guys tonight at a Beaverton showcase -- kind of obvious bit, dildos and lube, no wonder they can't get them out of there -- and the crowd was amazed and unaware. My own 16 year daughter who is a great student had not heard about the occupation. SMDH

PS the bit killed
posted by msalt at 11:26 PM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

dildos and lube, no wonder they can't get them out of there

Have they tried MORE lube?
posted by chimaera at 11:40 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm confused. Are the guys who were just sitting around the fire getting drunk, stoned, and talking about how they're about to all die for what they believe in and they'll never surrender! Are those the five guys that were released? Are they totally free to go, waiting for a stand-off that's never coming?
posted by Weeping_angel at 1:12 AM on January 28, 2016

Or are the five released guys different guys and the die hards are still there?
posted by Weeping_angel at 1:14 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

The FBI are popping corn for the eventual nostalgic (complete with dance scene!) Breakfast Club remake.
posted by adept256 at 1:39 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm having this fantasy.

It recalls something that happened a few years back. A civil rights activist, from that great era, was apprehended trying to break into his own home. It was a dreadful misunderstanding, though quickly resolved without too much embarrassment.

To restore levity and a patriotic friendship, the pair (policeman and potential trespasser) were invited to the White House for a beer, with Joe Biden. The most memorable part of this for me, was that Biden drank a non-alcoholic beer. It's kinda a big fucking deal for me, but I'm convinced Biden is a secret Yeltsin*.

So this remaining few, and I'm relying on your reports here, they are having a puff around a campfire? Ok! Pass it to Obama. He knows all about the constitution. You may say he even read it once. He can even pardon you, if you show contrition. He can just declare it part of Colorado. That's what the Fed does!

Then Obama will tell the giggling stoners about how he managed to sneak alley-oops with the cooperation of his opponents.

They'll probably serve some nominal prison time. Who really wants more prisoners anyway?
posted by adept256 at 2:23 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

The "not with guns" part makes a really big difference, though.

It really, really does, and it is mind boggling that has to be pointed out over and over

Maybe we should change what we call them

Murdertools or something

Squeezeandkills
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:15 AM on January 28, 2016 [11 favorites]

Still worried about those dogs.
posted by bluecore at 3:19 AM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

"The Pacific Patriots Network is issuing an immediate “STAND BY” Order to all those who are mobilizing to the peaceful city of Burns, Oregon. We will not pursue any action until all of the facts have been pieced together regarding the traffic stop and the arrest of Ammon Bundy"

The way I read this, it is a *threat* of future violent action, plain and simple. Notice they are "standing by," not "standing down," and promising action after facts are known. And yet it was posted, I think, as some kind of "good news", and implies some level of praise for these rat bastards.

I hope enough of their leadership was exposed in this episode to put the feds on their tails for weapons violations, outstanding parking tickets, and everything in between. Those groups aren't "patriots," they are armed insurrectionists itching for a chance to take up weapons against the government and the people of the US. The "oath" they keep is a perversion of the one they took. The "97%" they exempt themselves from are the majority of normal people in this country who would not take up arms against their fellow citizens. The "patriotism" they serve is steeped in racist violence and fantasy. They aren't actually militias and any of them who are actual cops or soldiers are likely *violating* their oath, and the public trust, by associating with seditionists and preaching violence. They didn't "help out" in this situation, they made it worse by existing, and in some cases by showing up or saying shit. No one wants them in Harney County. No one wants them to act, or "help," or whatever idiotic right wing beer-gutted white male bullshit fantasy they have in their minds about how important and scary dangerous they are.

With any luck this little episode has put a bit of dent in the right wing gun nutter wacko movement, made them look like the unhinged dildos they are, and the public is not much interested in fine distinctions about exactly when each group thinks it would be OK to shoot a cop or draw weapons on civilians or occupy federal property.

But I am disinclined to be grateful to them for publicly, if passive-aggressively, threatening the government and the American people with statements like this. That's not "good news," that is a veiled threat of further violence.

I have no patience for any sort of sympathetic view of the occupying terrorists OR their larger movement, and the "culture of honor" they purportedly inhabit (as it turned out, very few of the occupiers had any actual military background, and the episode exposed an increasing number of Stolen Valor cases among the ranks of these "Patriots," including politicians who support them, just lying about their military records and making up combat experience). Culture of honor, my ass. Culture of violence, more like.

I hope the Pacific Patriots and all the rest of those fake soldiers decide to "take action" after all. The real reason they are "standing by" or "standing down" and not "mobilizing" (all military jargon meant to suggest they comprise an actual militia and have actual military training and just to militarize our discourse) is that they are watching the whole country laugh at them and their ilk, mock them as dildo-waving fanatics, and not get very upset when one of their idiot number is gunned down pretending he's a cowboy soldier, by cops who probably *are* actual combat veterans and who can get their hands on bigger and more guns than they can.

Three percent my ass. Culture of honor my ass. These are irrational, violent people -- a good number of them outright racists and bigots -- who need to be dealt with like children until they take up arms, and then they need to be dealt with like criminals when they "mobilize" or "stand up" or whatever BS military jargon they use to describe their criminal fantasies of violence.

These are the people who nurtured McVeigh. Given a chance they'll do it again. They have no honor. They aren't patriots. Their movement is no different than jihadism.
posted by spitbull at 4:26 AM on January 28, 2016 [34 favorites]

It recalls something that happened a few years back. A civil rights activist . . . .

Henry Louis "Skip" Gates is a Harvard professor, a literary scholar of great accomplishment and brilliance and productivity, a TV personality, and a fabulous self promoter. It's a long stretch to call him a "civil rights activist," although his politics have generally been on the side of the angels in that cause and his ideas (about the African roots of African American aesthetics) have been influential among some activist elements.

So yeah, that story was even weirder because it did not involve a cop and any sort of activist. It involved a cop hassling, on the vague complaint of a likely racist neighbor, a bespectacled, be-tweeded, slightly built multi-millionaire Harvard professor coming home to his lovely Cambridge 5 bedroom house and being thought a burglar for doing so.
posted by spitbull at 4:57 AM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

Just to put meat on the Stolen Valor bones, I think this got mentioned above, but this episode revealed a doozy.

Rep. Graham Hunt, Washington State legislator and prominent Republican activist (chairs Cruz's campaign in WA) has been patently lying about (and posting photoshopped pictures of) his claimed combat service in Iraq and Afghanistant. He has furiously scrubbed the public record to remove some of those claims (and the photo), but too late, he's been caught. Likely the closest he got to combat was inspecting cars coming on base in Saudi, for which he won a medal because it was hot duty. And OK, that's legit service and nothing to be less than proud about. But then why go and make up stories about all the death you saw?

Tacoma's News-Tribune has a good editorial about it. The Seattle Times did the original reporting.

Scratch these "patriot" gun nutter guys and about a millimeter of patriotic bluster falls away to reveal craven, dishonest, dishonorable men who can't tell the difference between real life and the "Call of Duty" games they play with their fantasy soldier friends. And as I recall there were two significant Stolen Valor situations among the Malheur occupiers as well (that we know of, but none of those guys was very convincing at playing soldier). How can people who actually served in combat have any respect for such liars.

Rep. Hunt curiously thinks people are out to get him for his "leadership" on preventing transgender people from being able to use a public bathroom. So yeah, double fuck him.

Also too, Track Palin. His mom blames his domestic violence episode on Obummer's VA not treating PTSD in combat veterans seriously enough. And she certainly ran for VP while stressing his courage as a soldier. There's mounting evidence he never saw any combat while deployed.
posted by spitbull at 5:16 AM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

While Stolen Valor is a real problem, it would be great if we weren't questioning people's PTSD based on "was their deployment combat enough." PTSD can come from many places, including snipers, mortars, and MST. Just because you don't like Track Palin's mother or her claims is no reason to throw shit on his mental health issues because you don't think he's suffered enough. It is unfair to him and to the many veterans who struggle to get care at VA precisely because of the incorrect perception that only trigger-pullers have trauma, as well as those who refuse to admit they have a problem because other people have convinced them they'd be stigmatized and scrutinized over it.
posted by corb at 5:35 AM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

As of around midnight, the five who were left were debating leaving voluntarily, but there was a snag, due to pending federal charges against one of their number.

Around three hours ago, there was a last "live" post, where someone is driven to the gate. It's unclear who it is. Very little is said, but what little you can hear (the camera is pointed through the windshield at the sky) indicates an attempt at surrender by at least one person—a man who seems very tired and ready to be done, who says "we have to have more bodies to defend this ground" but in a resigned way— probably the one who is facing arrest? It's unfortunately unclear.

That is the last post from David Fry's "Defend Your Base" youtube channel.
posted by RedEmma at 5:38 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just because you don't like Track Palin's mother or her claims is no reason to throw shit on his mental health issues because you don't think he's suffered enough.

It's not even clear anybody diagnosed Track Palin with PTSD except his mother, and if he does, she is far and away acting as the worst person in this whole fracas.

It is unfair to him

Actual veterans' groups strongly disagree that Track Palin is being treated unfairly (emphasis mine):

[V]eterans who know the damaging effects of PTSD quickly came down on Palin's rhetoric, making it clear that her son's domestic violence charge shouldn't be used as a platform to politicize a condition that affects more than 10 percent of the U.S. military. And even if mental health issues contributed to Track Palin's alleged assault, in which police say he punched his girlfriend in the face before threatening suicide with an AR-15 assault rifle, they don't give him a free pass from consequences.
[...]
Matt Miller, the chief policy officer for the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, said Palin used PTSD as a "crutch" for her son's domestic violence. Instead of politicizing the suffering of veterans, Palin could have instead sought help for him.

"Parents have the greatest opportunity to help veterans with mental issues," Miller said. "It's estimated that 80 percent of veterans who sought mental health did so because a loved one asked them to."

posted by zombieflanders at 6:03 AM on January 28, 2016 [15 favorites]

Stolen valor is shitty, and Sarah Palin's form of vicarious stolen valor is particularly odious, but I don't think it's a significant factor in the Malheur incident, so it really seems like a derail here. None of us is equipped to remotely diagnose anyone with PTSD or downplay its impact in any particular case.

There is of course a strain of militarism that comes from people toting guns and wearing camo, but it's not connected in any significant way with the U.S. armed forces. Criticizing the militaristic mindset seems appropriate, going over whether certain people were close enough to live bullets to have a legitimate PTSD claim much less so.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:13 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think a more relevant problem might be that a lot of people seem to come out of the armed services as fairly helpless individuals unable to really make it in society and so fall easy prey to fascist movements and conspiracy cranks. Taking a look at what rehabilitisation can be done there might be a not bad idea instead of simultaneously idolising people and throwing them on the trash heap.
posted by Artw at 6:32 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. Pardon my optimism: I genuinely believe that as long as we give each other's comments a good-faith reading and respond in the same spirit we'll actually probably be okay here. Thanks!
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:51 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

The rumor in Alaska is he enlisted because a judge gave him a choice between that and facing charges for vandalizing the brake lines on school buses.

That doesn't happen anymore. Recruiters (especially in Alaska, which has the highest per-capita representation in the U.S. military (14-page PDF)) are not so desperate for bodies (and haven't been, even at the height of the war years) that they'll take someone with so much as a pending shoplifting charge, and if it got before a judge, then it was in the system.

Shitting on Palin for her idiocy is fine, but don't get caught up in "He's not a real veteran!" just because she's using him.
posted by Etrigan at 6:57 AM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

WaPo roundup of information from the past 24 hours: More Oregon occupiers arrested; others leave as standoff appears to dwindle
posted by hippybear at 7:03 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

>I think a more relevant problem might be that a lot of people seem to come out of the armed services as fairly helpless individuals unable to really make it in society and so fall easy prey to fascist movements and conspiracy cranks

Art, I'm not sure where that comes from but, unless things have radically altered since I came out of service, the military provides it's participants with a set of life skills frankly second to none. Not everyone who is in service ends up a tortured combat vet (heaven help them). Most people go in learn a trade and a doctrine of self-discipline along with other life skills that serve them very well in civilian life - I know it did that for me.

It's true that too many people (one is too many) go in and come out tortured souls but that is more of a problem with a society which tells young men and woman to go out there and kill somebody for debatable reasons than it is with the military per se.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:03 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

the military provides it's participants with a set of life skills frankly second to none

This has been true for the vast majority of veterans I have known, too.
posted by spitbull at 7:11 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

the military provides it's participants with a set of life skills frankly second to none

I'll third that. The huge corporation I used to work for had the hiring philosophy that if a candidate had military experience, you could hire them with the reasonable expectation that they would be superlative employees.
posted by valkane at 7:14 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

There is nothing to be gained by putting the munchkins in jail once we know who the directive leaders are. The munchkins might go find more leaders, but they're only slightly more likely to do that than you or I. History is clear on this.

"Who among us hasn't taken public lands by force of arms?" is a defense of sorts. Not likely to be a very effective defense, but good enough for message board purposes, I guess.

But what you're missing here is the space between "charging every participant" and "putting every participant in jail." There's a lot to be gained by charging every participant in this little insurrection, namely deterrence and establishing a record, but for many of the minor participants, especially in the absence of any previous offenses, justice may be sufficiently served by a combination of fines/financial restitution and/or probationary time.

Speaking of arrests, here's Pete Santilli's. Book 'em, Danno!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:16 AM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

This LAT piece on just what the FBI was doing in Burns is interesting, too. Nut graf:

"A significant amount of the FBI’s information used to charge Ammon Bundy came from an activist named Pete Santilli, who was living inside the refuge and broadcasting live his conversations with fellow activists.

To demonstrate a conspiracy, the government has a lower burden than it would with similar charges, such as aiding and abetting, or solicitation. A conspiracy charge in federal court does not require the underlying offense to have taken place, so prosecutors can charge the defendants based on their statements, without proving they actually committed a crime.

That is where Santilli’s broadcasts proved so useful to the FBI."

posted by octobersurprise at 7:27 AM on January 28, 2016 [15 favorites]

So, not only is their OpSec weak, but they shoulda paid a little more heed to Omerta. Loose lips do indeed sink ships.
posted by valkane at 7:32 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Weeping_angel: Or are the five released guys different guys and the die hards are still there?

Five of the eight who walked out yesterday were released, leaving five remaining die-hards.
posted by mochapickle at 7:35 AM on January 28, 2016

Very poor thinking and strategy overall.
posted by Miko at 7:35 AM on January 28, 2016

A comment on the Dave Fry whom is mentioned above a bit. It's human nature to be compassionate and here on Metafilter we are blessed with an abundance of such nature. I feel for the guy myself at times but I have spent way too much time looking over his blogs and history and, although he is indeed a very sad person, I think it important to point out that he is a very, very bad person as well.

Mr. Fry is a Nazi, an antisemite (redundant I know) , a vitriolic anti-gay and antit-trans spokesperson and someone who is willing to bring a gun in and take things that aren't his - because he can - because he believed that the gun allowed him to do so. I truly believe that Mr. Fry would gladly go along with the extermination of any and all of those groups.

He is a confused and frightened little man and heaven knows what kind of upbringing caused this to happen (or if perhaps he was just born that way) and right now he is scared and alone and the leaders that used him have abandoned him and it's natural for us to feel some kind of compassion for him. Well, he does not deserve it. He did many bad things and now, at the end of that road there is a price to be paid and rather than pay that price, this horrid little man has just last evening (Vlog link above) stated he would rather point a gun at someone and force them to kill him in turn forcing the kind of pain and trauma of killing someone on some hapless LEO who will carry that one around for life. Why? Because Mr. Fry states he will be forgiven in his afterlife and won't suffer there. This is a person inescapable of thinking about anyone other than themselves. A failed human being.

Well screw Fry and his virgin-less afterlife. He was a very bad person. He did very bad things. He deserves to be punished for them for a very long time and unless you believe in mercy-killing (I do not) - prison is where he belongs.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:35 AM on January 28, 2016 [14 favorites]

I believe in punishing him and that he is indeed very bad. But I also think he's a psychological mess, and that is why he's such a bad person. I don't believe compassion and the recognition of, and accountability for, moral failure are mutually exclusive. Point taken, though.
posted by Miko at 7:38 AM on January 28, 2016 [12 favorites]

AGameOfMoans: and someone who is willing to bring a gun in and take things that aren't his - because he can - because he believed that the gun allowed him to do so.

I think it's important to note I don't think he showed up with a gun. The only time I ever saw him holding a gun was the last day of live feeds, and he apologized to someone for using their gun that they left behind. Still dangerous, but he's dangerous because he's a sponge that soaks up whatever he's around. Whatever his punishment, I hope he gets mental health care.
posted by bluecore at 7:44 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yeah, having watched what seems like hours of David's mostly boring video, I think he needs secured treatment more than anything else. He should be in a locked mental facility.

My main concern at this point is that he spent a lot of hours reading the livechat connected to his video channel, and became very openly despondent and even despairing about the "Americans out there." I think he's at great risk for committing a mass shooting down the road, if he isn't given treatment promptly. He has gone from his habitual online hateful rhetoric to a sense of extreme hopelessness. He scares me.
posted by RedEmma at 7:44 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mass shooting and/or suicide. He has definitely become hopeless and is thinking more about afterlife than life.
posted by Miko at 7:46 AM on January 28, 2016

Precisely the confusion between tactics and public relations seems to be the downfall of all these characters. It's not as clear to me that they desire to be "free" or whatever they say they want as much as they very very clearly desire to be *famous.*
posted by spitbull at 7:48 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Regarding charges: What about the fence they tore down early on? Was that the rancher's fence or federal property? If it actually belonged to the rancher seems like he could press charges too, and they have plenty of evidence of who was involved. Although I'd bet the rancher would not be likely to press the issue; although I could also image a scenario where he could make the point "Hey, I'm an actual rancher and to show how wrong I think these guys' position is I'm going to prosecute." He'd earn both friends and enemies (scary, scary enemies).
posted by achrise at 7:50 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think it's important to remember that you can hold both empathy and punishment inside you at the same time. You don't have to think that someone shouldn't be punished for their actions to feel compassion or sorrow for them and the life they lead. In many ways, empathy is about us rather than the person we are empathizing with - about the humanity we want to show rather than the quality of the person we are empathizing with. It's really hard to empathize with people who either are or who you see as the enemy, but I think there's a lot of value in it.
posted by corb at 7:51 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

The fence was the rancher's property and he replaced it himself within 24-48 hours of it being torn down. There's a link earlier in this thread (I have no idea where) that is an interview with that rancher. I believe one of his hired hands was involved with the fence being torn down, and that man is no longer working for him.
posted by hippybear at 7:54 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ah, here is that article about the rancher and the fence.
posted by hippybear at 7:56 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

What's "a publicly owned fence" doing on his land?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:59 AM on January 28, 2016

Two sides to every fence. The rancher is liable if his cattle trespass. His ranch hand had a relationship with the occupiers he did not sanction. He fixed the fence to cover his potential for profit.
posted by Oyéah at 8:04 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

So it looks like, no standing on the fence and no trespassing because they were "invited in".
posted by achrise at 8:05 AM on January 28, 2016

Were they even on his land?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:06 AM on January 28, 2016

I read somewhere it was to be secondary access and to let the cattle onto the refuge. The rancher was out of state, he got right on those repairs. I am sure he had some very observant and capable help.
posted by Oyéah at 8:10 AM on January 28, 2016

The law firm representing these nitwits for the arraignment has started a fund for the cost of individual lawyers for each of them. If they don't want to waive conflict of interest the trial(s) might turn into a bit of a sideshow.
posted by Talez at 8:11 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's not as clear to me that they desire to be "free" or whatever they say they want as much as they very very clearly desire to be *famous.*

Characteristic of political work in the age of social media, particularly among the soi disant "patriots," is the difficulty distinguishing between the grift, the fame-whoring, and the demands for validation.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:15 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

The court sideshow is Occupation Phase 2: Rise of the Moon Law.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:17 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm kind of assuming here the the initial light weight charge of conspiracy will be replaced down the road or added to with numerous other charges. I am thinking /hoping that this charge is more of a "placeholder" until prosecutors can put together an extensive list of charges. Is what I said an actual procedure or do the courts not allow that?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:26 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

By the time they actually throw the book, they will need a trebuchet.
posted by Oyéah at 8:28 AM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm sure they will be charged with "destruction of government property" at the very least, which if the government wants it to be, can be just about anything. I'm not just talking about the bulldozing, if I am recalling correctly any use that leads to consumption of government property counts under that statute. So if they ate any food supplies, use the toilet paper, what have you.
posted by corb at 8:31 AM on January 28, 2016

they will need a trebuchet

Ha! I hope so.

Are the five stragglers remaining, or did they turn themselves in? Seems selfish of that Sean person who is the only one with a current charge against him to risk the lives of the four others by delaying.
posted by mochapickle at 8:32 AM on January 28, 2016

I hope everyone involved sees maximum charges for their actions and I find the efforts to excuse the "followers" from those charges kind of gross. They didn't just vandalize government property, they stopped very important work at that refuge for going on a month now.

To accept the suggestion that this was just "harmless protest" with a side of vandalism is to completely devalue the crucial work done by the scientists at the wildlife refuge. To act like this was a victimless crime is to grant their framing that the wildlife refuge is unimportant and pointless. It is not.
posted by dialetheia at 8:38 AM on January 28, 2016 [20 favorites]

I can find no word anywhere about whether the standoff is over. The last word is the Defend Your Base video from six hours ago, where someone—probably this Sean person—was driven to the gate to turn himself in. It is unclear whether at that point anyone else ended their stand. Sean appears the be the last person of any stature among them (I mean, the rest are just stragglers with vague purpose.)

Since there has been no other video, I am assuming that either David's ability to charge his phone or his interest in updating has ended. I would imagine that they are in negotiations of some sort, which are probably going around and around.
posted by RedEmma at 8:38 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

According to the O's reporting, there are still five left. More worryingly, it looks like Fry is acting as their primary negotiator, which says a lot about the competence of the final five.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:42 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

There is nothing to be gained by putting the munchkins in jail once we know who the directive leaders are.

They were just following orders! Wait, even that ignominious defense doesn't apply. The "munchkins" are armed men threatening murder and revolution. They chose to travel to Oregon and join a sedition. They destroyed federal property, terrorized a rural community, and wasted a huge amount of government money and time. They caused a shootout with cops where thankfully the only one killed was one of the more suicidally-bent of the terrorists. Why should these criminals not be held accountable?

Their remaining spokesman has a reason. "We're asking them to just drop the charges," Fry said. "And nobody dies." Clearly we should appease them.
posted by Nelson at 8:49 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

I am thinking /hoping that this charge is more of a "placeholder" until prosecutors can put together an extensive list of charges. Is what I said an actual procedure or do the courts not allow that?

Oh yeah. IANAL, but as I understand it, additional charges can (and probably will) be added though further investigation, a grand jury, and up to some final indictment. It's also possible that the threat of additional charges will compel any one of these yahoos to roll on another.

SA Armstrong's 32 page affidavit can be read here, btw. On page 4 she writes

"I have not included all information learned through this investigation. I have included information I believe is sufficient to establish probable cause for the criminal complaint and arrest warrants requested by this affidavit."

posted by octobersurprise at 8:53 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

To accept the suggestion that this was just "harmless protest" with a side of vandalism is to completely devalue the crucial work done by the scientists at the wildlife refuge. To act like this was a victimless crime is to grant their framing that the wildlife refuge is unimportant and pointless. It is not.

I agree and hope that all participants are charged and face some penalties, if not jail. Please round up Daddy Bundy too - and be sure to collect our million dollars back due, with interest.

If I were an employee of the Refuge, I would never feel completely safe again going to work there, fearing that more nutters would be back to take revenge for their purported martyr and the symbolism of the site. Plus, all the local law enforcement have targets on their backs. Talk about PTSD, the whole town probably needs therapy.

If this were a simple protest or occupation, I could find more sympathy in my heart even tho I disagree with the cause. But coming in armed makes all the difference. These are terrorist insurrectionists and I hope they get the book thrown at them.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:55 AM on January 28, 2016 [18 favorites]

Yeah, I don't understand the "don't charge them" group at all. While I very much think that peaceful protest should not be illegal, I have a hard time understanding how not charging people in a violent protest wouldn't lead to more such down the road.
posted by OmieWise at 8:56 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

hooray, PPN is calling for people to camp out at the refuge and force the FBI out "peacefully"

guess that's what "stand by" meant.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:01 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not charging might be a factor in getting people to leave peacefully once they took out the leadership. Look at Fry, who says he would rather die than go to prison.

This really could have ended up a bloodbath. Keeping blood off the land might end up being more important for the larger aim.
posted by mochapickle at 9:04 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

But yeah, I have no idea how they are going to make the refuge feel secure again. A lot has been lost and I am certain this is affecting other potentially vulnerable sites as well.
posted by mochapickle at 9:07 AM on January 28, 2016

If I were an employee of the Refuge, I would never feel completely safe again going to work there, fearing that more nutters would be back to take revenge for their purported martyr and the symbolism of the site.

Ugh. This is something I hadn't really even thought about.

The 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City occurred exactly two years to the day after the takedown of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco.

I think the FBI is going to have their hands full keeping track of the movements of the various militant right wing groups in the coming years.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:08 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

MysticMCj: that link and associated manifesto appears to be eventually from someone named BJ Soper, a member of the "Central Oregon Constitutional Guard" so it seems to be just one local person rather than the Pacific Patriot Network as a whole.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:11 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

a member of the "Central Oregon Constitutional Guard"

AKA the "COC Guards." Y'know, for brevity's sake.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:13 AM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, I don't understand the "don't charge them" group at all. While I very much think that peaceful protest should not be illegal, I have a hard time understanding how not charging people in a violent protest wouldn't lead to more such down the road.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be charged, but rather I don't believe that the government will pursue charges against most of the participants. At best they'll try to make an example of the leaders while letting the majority of the terrorists free to fight another day. At worst all of them walk.

We've seen this before, the law is enforced entirely differently for white, right-wing, homegrown terrorists with deep ties to the Republican party than for the same conduct by literally any other demographic or political affiliation. I'd love to think this is the time when it's different, but early outlook is not convincing.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:17 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

"We're asking them to just drop the charges," Fry said. "And nobody dies."

That sort of sums up their delusions in a nutshell. All along, their framing of the situation has been, basically, "Give us what we want, or there will be bloodshed," as if they have done absolutely nothing wrong and are innocent citizens being terrorized by the authorities. The complete lack of any sense of personal responsibility on their part is astounding.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:17 AM on January 28, 2016 [9 favorites]

If I were an employee of the Refuge, I would never feel completely safe again going to work there, fearing that more nutters would be back to take revenge for their purported martyr and the symbolism of the site.

Especially when you consider that last time around, two of the Bundy Ranch hangers-on went on to Las Vegas and murdered three people. And that was one the Bundyites won on every point. I wonder if Mahleur will ever function as a public refuge again. After a month of these criminals being allowed to terrorize the employees freely, even at their own homes, how many of them are going to want to go back, knowing that at any moment another nut may show up to 'avenge'? They have a good idea of how much the government has their backs: pretty much none. Oh, if they actually get murdered, someone will get charged, but that's not a lot of consolation.
posted by tavella at 9:18 AM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

To accept the suggestion that this was just "harmless protest" with a side of vandalism is to completely devalue the crucial work done by the scientists at the wildlife refuge

Yeah, to be clear, between this and the use of arms and threats of violence to maintain the occupation, this is where I part company with those who see political or ideological or legal equivalence with any example of non-violent civil disobedience. It could be because I work in another western state and have colleagues and friends who are very much like the ones who work at Malheur, and others who are very much like the Paiutes in this situation, but the whole time I've been especially bothered by the early reports that the occupiers were rifling through the personal papers and computers of the preserve's staff and scientists and the archaeological heritage of the Paiute people and bulldozing land willy-nilly. To me those have been violent acts directed at people, not abstract acts directed at things.

Among other things the painstaking work of a lot of Westerners and their allies, of many different sorts and interests, has been harmed by this episode. Positions will harden. Suspicions will grow. Memories will linger. Fear will hang around in the air. In my opinion the mockery, in particular, from the broad general public needs to continue so that there is no traction gained in pushing a narrative mytholigization of Malheur as a victory or of Finicum as a martyr. And that also demands prosecution of every last little crime that can be proven and attributed to any last little bit player in this mess.
posted by spitbull at 9:18 AM on January 28, 2016 [15 favorites]

PPN is calling for people to camp out at the refuge and force the FBI out "peacefully"

<Rocky>But that trick never works!</Rocky>
posted by octobersurprise at 9:19 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

> If I were an employee of the Refuge, I would never feel completely safe again going to work there,

As a birder who visits sites like this, this goes for me too. Do I, with my binos and scope, have to be looking over my shoulder for shitheads like these guys when I'm driving around a NWR, instead of looking for dark-morph ferruginous hawks? That NWR that those shitheads talk about "taking back" for the "people"? I AM THE FUCKING PEOPLE: GET OFF MY FUCKING LAWN.
posted by rtha at 9:19 AM on January 28, 2016 [31 favorites]

Oh good: No bail
posted by Artw at 9:22 AM on January 28, 2016 [9 favorites]

Dispatch from Caitlin Copple from the Center for Western Priorities conservationist group:

How do you repair an urban-rural divide? I think it's similar to how you work to end racism or homophobia. You hang out with people who are different from you, who aren't the typical folks you'd meet at work or church or your kid's soccer game. You get to know their stories and you listen more than you talk. You build a relationship, which inherently involves trust. [...] But so long as people like the Bundys take the law into their own hands and threaten violence, civility and sensibility cannot return to America's democratic conversation. That confrontational climate forces you to pick a side and stand up for it rather than play the long, hard game of building a relationship.

posted by mochapickle at 9:25 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I don't understand the "don't charge them" group at all.

It's some of the same people who defend the Confederacy and think they were wronged in the 'War of Northern Aggression.'
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:26 AM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

Ahhh.. they guy with the warrants - the "Come Get Some!" crazy guy. He SO needs to be in prison.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:30 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

For a second there, I thought the feds were blasting the music and the couple was trying to make the most of it. I need more coffee.
posted by mochapickle at 9:31 AM on January 28, 2016

Another video from Fry, where (among other things) he accuses protesters in Ferguson of rioting for the purpose of violent theft, while his bunch of knuckleheads came in peace with no intentions of violence.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:37 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Looks like we're down to four. David Fry, Sean Anderson, Sandy Anderson, and one dude that I can't identify.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:40 AM on January 28, 2016

Mod note: A few comments deleted. Skip the lolfatties, please.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:41 AM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

Jeff Banta is the fourth, per Amelia Templeton, a reporter OPBNews.
posted by mochapickle at 9:43 AM on January 28, 2016

Ammo is already begging for money. But rugged individualism! Bootstraps!
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:45 AM on January 28, 2016

Ammo's attornies are begging for money. Ammo isn't going to get the constitutional lawyer, he thinks he needs. Maybe Barack Obama could work the case pro bono after his presidency ends. Bada bing.
posted by Oyéah at 9:54 AM on January 28, 2016

Can you imagine the head asploding from that? Too bad it would be a no-win for Obama. (IE: if he won the terrorists win and if he loses the wing nuts have something else to blame Obama for.)
posted by Mitheral at 9:57 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has anyone even said "don't charge them?" Even if they did comparing them to Confederate sympathizers is pretty fucking insulting and unwarranted.

What I said, which may have been mistaken after a game of telephone for something like "don't charge them," is that I expect the government to only use the book-throwing trebuchet against the leaders, especially those they cornered on the road. I expect them to be lenient -- which does not necessarily mean no charges at all -- against the munchkins.

Why do I expect this? Well, it turns out that during these weeks when we've been complaining and complaining and complaining that they weren't doing anything and didn't have a plan, they were in fact doing something and following a very clear plan which is based on a very particular interpretation of how authoritarian groups function. They waited until they could take down the leaders without allowing them contact with their followers. Those leaders are the important people. Without their motivation the followers are unlikely to do much of anything, but the leaders are capable of recruiting and motivating potentially large groups of otherwise harmless idiots into a focused tool.

When Robert Altemeyer stacked a game of world political control with authoritarian followers (the vast majority of those who score high on the authoritarian index) but no leaders, they had a rather boring and sedate century. It turns out authoritarians are naturally fearful and hesitant without someone to inspire them. But when they packed the same game with authoritarian leaders -- a small minority of the actual population -- they started a nuclear war, twice in the same evening.

This is not to say that the munchkins shouldn't be charged or prosecuted at all. The ones that operated the construction equipment, cut the fence, and so on will probably have to answer for the vandalism. But after taking the group down in the particular way they did, I think they are assuming that most of the occupiers will actually be pretty harmless without leaders to whisper sedition in their ears. This doesn't mean they are blameless or won't be held to some account, just that it doesn't make sense to throw them in a hole and throw away the key for being stupid and being susceptible to the wrong siren song.

It is not productive to attempt to deter someone who is too stupid to be deterred when they are under the influence of a charismatic leader. It is the leader you have to either deter or take out of the equation. Do that and the rest takes care of itself. No Jim Jones, koolaid is still just a drink sold by a funky dancing pitcher. This has proven to be true at every scale from governments down to pocket cults like the Manson family.

If the authorities had wanted to crush everyone they could have done it on day 2, and a lot of us were begging them to do just that. Like it or not they had other ideas, and executed a plan that was clearly aimed at the authoritarian leaders while trying to spare the others as much as possible. They spent three weeks taking quite a bit of public abuse letting that plan unfold, which tells me they are probably fairly committed to it.

And if it seems unfair that Occupy got treated differently, well, it's not fair but it's practical. Remember that Occupy was also allowed quite a bit of time, probably for the same reason of trying to identify the leaders. But Occupy didn't really have authoritarian leaders because it was never an authoritarian movement. When the authorities realized this they just swooped in since everybody in Occupy didn't have a gun. The guns do make a difference. But the guns are also why the Oregon leaders will probably spend a lot of time behind bars, and as unpleasant as the crushing of Occupy was pretty much nobody did hard time for their participation.
posted by Bringer Tom at 9:59 AM on January 28, 2016 [11 favorites]

rtha: That NWR that those shitheads talk about "taking back" for the "people"?

In the same way settlers went west and "laid claim" to land that was already occupied by native people, and European explorers before them traveled the world and "civilized" the wild lands, where complex civilizations were treated as sources for raw goods and slaves. Which matches up with the views of Papa Clive Bundy.

And people will be right to be cautious and concerned when returning to this refuge, or anywhere else these armed "Patriots" claim as their own. In Nevada, a vast and sensitive piece of federal public land adjacent to the Grand Canyon has gone unmanaged and unpatrolled since Cliven Bundy's clan of armed misfits faced off with the government in 2014, and since then sensitive habitats and sacred areas have been impacted by illegally grazing cattle and people who trespass, and even fewer government staff have been out there since scientists under contract with the Bureau of Land Management were camped here, gathering field research, where shot at by unseen individuals.

Gold Butte, roughly the size of Los Angeles County, is basically lawless right now. Trash is dumped here and there. Some of the BLM's route markers are torn down. Illegal off-road tracks from ATVs lead into the desert. Some pioneer gravesites were even dug up, bones scattered everywhere.

Yes, take back that land, where your illegally grazing cattle are measured at acres per cow, instead of cows per acre - and that low-yield land can typically support 1 cow per 100 acres.


Atom Eyes: I think the FBI is going to have their hands full keeping track of the movements of the various militant right wing groups in the coming years.

Coming years? The number of anti-government militias and rightwing extremists after Obama's election have increased significantly. You know, because of their concerns about the economy.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:08 AM on January 28, 2016 [12 favorites]

Your response here makes sense, but I did take "There is nothing to be gained by putting the munchkins in jail once we know who the directive leaders are," to be a call for more than simply leniency.
posted by OmieWise at 10:08 AM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

Has anyone even said "don't charge them?"

Yea, you did. "It probably shouldn't be a crime to be "anybody."" and comparing these guys to Nazis just following orders sounded pretty much like, "don't charge them". That's exactly how I took it.

Your follow-up is more like what I was saying, most of them will walk. But I fully disagree with you that there's no value in throwing the book at all of them. The next set of patsys needs to be deterred from answering the call next time Ammo lights the moon-law signal just like the next potential leader needs to be discouraged from starting it.

Further, you're still excusing the disparity in enforcement of the laws. No one can believe that any other group other than right wing white guys would get the same kid gloves treatment.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:17 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

comparing them to Confederate sympathizers is pretty fucking insulting and unwarranted

Wait, are you saying it's insulting to them or to Confederate sympathizers?

In any event, the Bundys most certainly have a problem with "negroes," Ritzheimer believes Muslims don't deserve Constitutional rights, and Fry is an anti-Semitic and racist Nazi sympathizer who has a rifle done up with the Stars and Bars. I don't know if we have any idea what the rest of the yahoos believe, but the fact that they considered people like that their brothers and worth teaming up with to harass random townspeople and potentially kill government employees doesn't put a whole lot sunlight in between them and Confederate (or facist, or Islamophobic) sympathizers.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:30 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

They waited until they could take down the leaders without allowing them contact with their followers. Those leaders are the important people. Without their motivation the followers are unlikely to do much of anything, but the leaders are capable of recruiting and motivating potentially large groups of otherwise harmless idiots into a focused tool.

And it sounds like it worked if you believe Fry's account. Within minutes of word getting back that Ammon had been arrested, there was wild pandemonium as most people fled like scared rabbits, abandoning their belongings and even their guns. The Feds offered them a nonviolent way out and they took it.
posted by JackFlash at 10:31 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Also worth reiterating from several comments upthread is that some of the "munchkins" that teamed up with the Bundys led to a mass shooting that ended in murder/suicide. Unlike actual protesters, when you make death threats while toting guns, we can never know when you're going to use them.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:34 AM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

But I fully disagree with you that there's no value in throwing the book at all of them. The next set of patsys needs to be deterred from answering the call next time Ammo lights the moon-law signal

But they won't be deterred. It is very important to understand this because it's one of the most important results of Altemeyer's research. They trusted their leaders when they were promised that victory was certain. What deters against that? The only thing that works is to discredit (very difficult) or remove (somewhat risky) the leaders who have such power over them. Telling them they will go to jail does nothing if they don't believe your promised consequences will be applied because Reverend Jim, who they trust a lot more, has promised them victory.

It is certainly a problem that the law doesn't wade in with the same careful analysis and measured response when the perps aren't right-wing or white. This does not mean that the measured response is wrong, maybe that it should be used more.

Within minutes of word getting back that Ammon had been arrested, there was wild pandemonium as most people fled like scared rabbits,

If the last 24 hours of streaming video have proven anything, it's that without their leaders the rest of the yokels would have been doing good to occupy a porta-potty.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:34 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Um... Things have taken another turn for the weird.
posted by RedEmma at 10:35 AM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

Why overreach on charging people? I don't understand the fantasy land people live in where prosecution is cheap, doesn't take up your time, etc. that could be spent better elsewhere, and doesn't involve convincing a judge/jury that the charges are real. Not everyone posted pictures to social media, not everyone posted threats (and the threats everyone is crowing about were in the first few days; after that the story has been more 'we are peaceful and don't want a confrontation,' which was a bullshit line, but you can't charge people with spouting bullshit), there isn't going to be evidence on everyone.

Scared straight/scorched earth only works for certain personalities. Not everyone is going to respond to a few months in prison (or several months fighting court battles) by going limp. There are plenty of people that would be convinced they're right by such an ordeal, that would be further radicalized by having their lives made worse by getting a criminal record. Similarly, responding to people crying out about government overreach by cracking down on every last supporter seems really counterproductive.

That isn't how you govern, that isn't how you help people, that isn't how you work with people who have different ideas than you.

Though there's a line, of course. I wouldn't be saying this if there had been no arrests, but there have been at least eleven.
posted by mountmccabe at 10:36 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

It seems like "where they physically there?" is a decent line in the sand to draw. Are you actually arguing that there was a single person occupying the refuge that was just so ignorant that they can't understand that they were breaking the law, and therefore it shouldn't be applied to them?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:40 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

They are still waiting, and now insisting that it was always a "Peaceful Revolution" and going on about how "unfair" it is that they would face felony charges. You see, they brought guns incidental to their self-defense. All that talk about dying in a blaze of glory has been forgotten.
posted by RedEmma at 10:41 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, now they're just "camping."

Right.
posted by Floydd at 10:43 AM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

In what other context would be people be arguing that we shouldn't charge people who flagrantly broke federal law? This is ludicrous. It's not "overreaching" to prosecute people for breaking laws. This isn't like possession of a gram of weed - they brought guns and took over a federal building. Again, this is not a victimless crime, and it was arguably the lack of prosecution in the 2014 standoff that led us to this point. It has nothing to do with "different ideas" or "helping people", it's about enforcing the law and demonstrating that you can't just break it with impunity.

If they don't enforce this law, these armed insurrectionists will (rightfully!!) think that armed takeover is an effective and valid way to achieve their goals. If they don't prosecute everyone involved, people will think there's little risk to joining an insurrection like this next time. There need to be consequences.
posted by dialetheia at 10:43 AM on January 28, 2016 [18 favorites]

Not charging people is what led to this bullshit in the first place.
posted by Artw at 10:47 AM on January 28, 2016 [11 favorites]

Oh, now they're just "camping."

Right.

All that "Fill the feds" stuff? LOL. Just kidding! Can't you guys take a joke?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:48 AM on January 28, 2016

Not everyone posted pictures to social media, not everyone posted threats

And yet they explicitly aided and abetted that by joining the occupation.

(and the threats everyone is crowing about were in the first few days; after that the story has been more 'we are peaceful and don't want a confrontation,' which was a bullshit line, but you can't charge people with spouting bullshit)

They've been making the threats the entire time. When they say it's a peaceful protest but they're willing to fire upon and kill people if necessary, it's what comes after the "but" and not before it that matters.

there isn't going to be evidence on everyone

Of course there is, it's called being present at an armed takeover of federal property.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:49 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Are you actually arguing that there was a single person occupying the refuge that was just so ignorant that they can't understand the that they were breaking the law, and therefore it shouldn't be applied to them?

No. I agree that these people were all bad. But also that that's very different from saying that sufficient evidence has been gathered against them that they'd be convicted of anything.

To pick one example, we have a picture of the "Christian missionary from Tennessee" vacuuming, so she was definitely there. And I agree that she should not have been there. What jury is going to convict her of what crime?
posted by mountmccabe at 10:50 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

> ... that isn't how you work with people who have different ideas than you.

Describing these armed and dangerous idiots as merely "having different ideas" is one reason why I want to see them charged for the laws that they broke.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:50 AM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

My Line? Well I wouldn't charge the minors.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:51 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

That was definitely a turn for the weird. Could have come straight out of Fargo. I could imagine a season of Fargo with a fictional account of the occupation. A Fry-esque character providing the Greek chorus narration throughout. Though their version would be a lot bloodier.

I think I'm leaning towards a certain amount of leniency for the small fry. Give them an initial felony charge to put the fear of God in them. And then eventually have it dropped or reduced to something with fines and probation. And probably most of them will return to their lives with some great (and partially fictional) stories without any desire to ever find themselves under the gun again.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:51 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well I for one am going to put in an advance purchase the moment Werner Herzog announces he is going to build a documentary from the streamed video footage.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:52 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

not everyone posted threats (and the threats everyone is crowing about were in the first few days)
posted by mountmccabe at 10:36 AM on January 28 [+] [!]

This is a free-for-all Armageddon. Any LEO or military or law enforcement or feds that stand up and f*ck their oath — don’t abide by their oath — are the enemy! If they stop you from getting here, kill them!”
-Sean Anderson (one of the current occupiers), yesterday
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:53 AM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

>Um... Things have taken another turn for the weird
It's as if David Lynch were asked to direct a government takeover
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:53 AM on January 28, 2016

Good news everyone, PPN leader Brandon Curtiss is interview by Pete Santilli;

Dereliction of Duty : PNN Founder Calls For Immediate Removal of Harney County Sheriff (don't need to actually watch, title says it all)

Good news, when the PPN rallied for the cause in Burns they mustered everyone they had from five organizations representing the entire west coast ... and managed to put twenty gun totters together and they believe they have more voice with their guns than the elected Sheriff.

Brandon Curtiss is not ... helpful (in my opinion).
posted by phoque at 10:53 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

What jury is going to convict her of what crime?

The same crimes related to "preventing federal workers from doing their jobs" that everyone else is?
posted by zombieflanders at 10:53 AM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

To pick one example, we have a picture of the "Christian missionary from Tennessee" vacuuming, so she was definitely there. And I agree that she should not have been there. What jury is going to convict her of what crime?

Has anybody in this thread called for Miss Jernigan, who simply seems like a vaguely confused woman who showed up briefly to refill pretzels, to be arrested?
posted by maxsparber at 10:55 AM on January 28, 2016

The attempts to equate this to occupy and black lives matter reminds me of the nonsense spouted by Gamergate.
posted by humanfont at 10:57 AM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

It gets more absurd than that, they are invoking MLK and Rosa Parks - at least that one PPN dude I linked above is.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:00 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Even here, in a group of generally super-progressive anti-racist people, the differences in how we call for white people to be treated is in SUCH stark contract to how we call for black people to be treated. I can't believe anybody is genuinely arguing for no charges against the majority of the occupiers.

They armed themselves, broke into a federal building and occupied it for nearly a month. If they were black they'd already be dead and we all know it, but since they're white we really perceive them as such a minor threat that we can honestly say we wouldn't charge them?

They are a FAR bigger threat than black activists because they can carry weapons and get away with it.
posted by zug at 11:07 AM on January 28, 2016 [11 favorites]

Has anybody in this thread called for Miss Jernigan, who simply seems like a vaguely confused woman who showed up briefly to refill pretzels, to be arrested?
posted by maxsparber at 10:55 AM on January 28 [+] [!]

She showed up to provide material support in the operations of an armed occupation of a federal building. There are laws specifically in place for this sort of thing. Why should she not be charged with them? So far I'm seeing vaguely confused, female, and guided by Jesus as potential defenses, but I'm not sure any of those are things we should be using to decide legal proceedings.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:13 AM on January 28, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yes, everyone there should face charges and be held accountable.

But there's room, too, to see the difference between someone filling the pretzel bowl and someone shouting at the camera (like Sean Anderson yesterday morning) directly calling on people to shoot and kill law enforcement.
posted by mochapickle at 11:17 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

I have been thinking a lot about other armed occupations, and one I can think of that is similar in some significant ways was the Wounded Knee Occupation of 1973. I think that it is true that race matters in these instances, but to say "they'd all be dead if they were black" doesn't seem exactly right to me. The MOVE bombing would be one where the Feds completely went over the top and killed everyone, but at Wounded Knee, where the occupiers had a lot of public support, this sort of "kill 'em all" idea didn't happen, though there was more violence on both sides.
posted by RedEmma at 11:17 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Of course there is, it's called being present at an armed takeover of federal property.

A better corollary than Occupy is the 1973 occupation of Wounded Knee by the American Indian Movement. Like this incident, protesters were armed, and unlike this incident, shooting back and forth was a regular occurrence - paralyzing a U.S. marshal. While leaders were charged, the disarmament deal involved the vast majority of people who had flocked to the banner walking free.
posted by corb at 11:18 AM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh dammit, jinx.
posted by corb at 11:18 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

My point is that nobody in this thread is demanding that she be prosecuted with the severity of the occupants. There's the weird argument that there's a sort of bloodthirstiness in this thread that I see no evidence of. Instead, I see people reasonably asking that the armed occupants who have made death threats be treated with the same severity they would experience were they not white, which is a fair request.
posted by maxsparber at 11:18 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Has anybody in this thread called for Miss Jernigan, who simply seems like a vaguely confused woman who showed up briefly to refill pretzels, to be arrested?

If my brother in law stops by my house after stealing a car and I give him gas money so he can drive to avoid capture, I should expect some sort of consequences for my actions. I probably won't go to jail, but I can easily see a fine or probation in my future. I feel the same for those people, even the day trippers, who stopped by the facility to aid those who took it by force of arms. There should be a consequence. Maybe not being frog marched to jail at gunpoint, but something, right?

Of course, this raises a broader question that if someone who delivered aid is in trouble, what about those who sent snacks? Dildos? I honestly do not know where the line should be drawn, but I'm pretty sure there are laws for that.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:19 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's nice to know there are so many examples you only have to go back 43 years to find one.
posted by Green With You at 11:20 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

>The MOVE bombing would be one where the Feds completely went over the top
Nope - it was the Philadelphia local police under the Rizzo administration who did that - not the Feds.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:24 AM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

In thinking of Wounded Knee, one of my main reasons to go there was to remember an incident I myself was sympathetic toward, so that I could have a sense of how the supporters of these cultists are coming at it. Also to imagine how this might pan out with racial differences.

The Left hasn't used guns to enforce their wingnut opinions in a long time. I'd consider that an evolution. The Right ... not so much.
posted by RedEmma at 11:25 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thanks for the correction, AGameofMoans.
posted by RedEmma at 11:26 AM on January 28, 2016

Thought exercise: Do you think the AIM people would have been allowed to roll out of Wounded Knee and visit the local grocery store, threaten to kill someone for wearing a tee-shirt, and allowed to stroll back to the occupation without anyone interfering with them? I really doubt it.
posted by tavella at 11:28 AM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

I believe Rizzo clashed with MOVE, but the bombing was a different incident right? Wikipedia agrees with me at least.
posted by aspo at 11:29 AM on January 28, 2016

Well, while there was a blockade at Wounded Knee, it was fairly porous due to the landscape and isolation. People did come and go all the time, according to the accounts I've read. Were they "allowed"--no, I don't think so. But reinforcements of food and people happened throughout the siege.
posted by RedEmma at 11:30 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Left hasn't used guns to enforce their wingnut opinions in a long time. I'd consider that an evolution. The Right ... not so much.

I mean, I actually think AIM had a lot of legitimate grievances, not so much with the wingnuttery. But I actually am way more familiar with the history of Left political action in the last few decades than with the Right, given that's where I was until the movement destroyed all my idealism. Did the Right ever have a moment of armed rebellion in the 70s or 80s? I know there have been some lone Right bombers, but has there ever been an armed movement?
posted by corb at 11:32 AM on January 28, 2016

Wounded Knee was also a more violent siege in that gunfire was regularly exchanged. While the Malheur occupiers *threatened* violence, there wasn't any until LaVoy did his suicide by cop.
posted by RedEmma at 11:33 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Left hasn't used guns to enforce their wingnut opinions in a long time.

The Wounded Knee occupation was about intra-tribal politics and actual malfeasance on the part of the federal government, undertaken by people with centuries of racist oppression. To either call it "wingnut" or in any way comparable to a couple of bigoted millionaire white folks and their bigoted friends is pretty damn offensive.

Were they "allowed"--no, I don't think so. But reinforcements of food and people happened throughout the siege.

They had to be airdropped, fer crissakes. The two Native Americans killed--odd that they weren't mentioned when the paralyzed marshal was--were shot while attempting to reach them.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:34 AM on January 28, 2016 [14 favorites]

Re: Ferguson, Occupy, et al.

Guns.

Guns guns guns and repeated unprovoked threats of violence. The Oregon Occupiers brought guns from all over the country with the expressed aim of threatening violence.

Anyone associated with this group is associated with guns guns guns and repeated unprovoked threats of violence.

Guns.

The difference is guns.

The difference in their minds was guns, the difference in reality was guns, the difference in the eyes of the law is guns, and the difference in what happens to the actors afterwards is going to be guns.

Guns.



Oh, there is one other difference worth pointing out.

In these other situations, the people going up against LE and LEO sought civil rights.

These People of Gun groups seem to be worked up principally over real or imagined property rights.

Interesting to see which groups resort to threats of (and actual) violence.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:35 AM on January 28, 2016 [24 favorites]

Okay, well, to be clear, I am using the term "wingnut" to mean "fringe" and out of the mainstream, and I am being flip, since my views are considered to be "wingnut" by people on the other side. I know that Wounded Knee had legit grievances of all kinds, and I don't consider them to be wingnuts. However, the average American probably did. (It might even be a mistake to call them Leftists, since they were operating from a militant self-preservationist perspective.)

As far as gooda being airdropped, that may be true, but personal accounts of people who were there that I have read say that people snuck out and back during the night, under threat of being shot. I'm thinking of the account of Mary Brave Bird.
posted by RedEmma at 11:39 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wounded Knee wasn't cut off from supplies for over a month, until the government decided they needed a harsher response. While activists organized an airlift of food, there was smuggling past the roadblocks.

Other deaths on or around Wounded Knee involved:

Frank Clearwater, who was shot by federal agents as he was sleeping
Lawrence Lamont, who got hit by a sniper
Ray Robinson - which is contested. He was a black civil rights activist who came out of solidarity, but some believe he was shot by the government, and others believe he was shot by AIM as an FBI spy. (This is not unprecedented, Anna Mae Aquash was similarly killed)

Also Red Emma sorry for getting you wrong!
posted by corb at 11:41 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Did the Right ever have a moment of armed rebellion in the 70s or 80s? I know there have been some lone Right bombers, but has there ever been an armed movement?

There have been violent right-wing "rebellions" and movements happening continuously since 1865. You may have heard of some of them going by names like the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party, who murdered 5 people in Greensboro in 1979, one of many similar incidents.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:41 AM on January 28, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yes, violence of that sort is obvious, but we're talking here specifically about armed sieges, particularly those that go on for a period of time. Greensboro was a massacre, a mass shooting based on political and racist violence.
posted by RedEmma at 11:45 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

To pick one example, we have a picture of the "Christian missionary from Tennessee" vacuuming, so she was definitely there. And I agree that she should not have been there. What jury is going to convict her of what crime?

It's unlikely that she'll ever face a jury. That's not how it's done. It's much more likely that she'll—at some point—face a trespassing charge or a conspiracy to impede federal officers charge or a conspiracy to vandalize federal property charge and then given the opportunity to plead out. She'll pay a fine or take probation and goes home. Funny thing is, no one can turn a lesser charge into bigger charge like a sovcit. It's also possible, if she's like a lot of them, a refusal to plead out, or to pay a fine, or contempt of court, or what have you will put her in front of a jury.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:45 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

These People of Gun groups seem to be worked up principally over real or imagined property rights.

They remind me in some ways of the followers of Atom in the Fallout games.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:49 AM on January 28, 2016

Many have probably read this but JJMacNab's tweets about the Seals is a fun story;
About those Navy Seals.. Now that I have a few minutes to explain why the militants thinks Seals are on the way..
posted by phoque at 11:51 AM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

Did the Right ever have a moment of armed rebellion in the 70s or 80s?

The Posse Comitatus is precisely where much of this stuff comes from.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:51 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

About those Navy Seals.. Now that I have a few minutes to explain why the militants thinks Seals are on the way..

I'm not sure if it's illegal to goad holdouts into doubling down by promising them fake reinforcements, but that man is definitely going to burn in the special hell.
posted by corb at 11:55 AM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

In a very brief press conf, Ammon Bundy's prepared statement & Ammon's lawyer cited "Article III court, Article III judge" three times.

SQUEE! MOON LAW 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO IS COMING!
posted by Talez at 11:56 AM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Many have probably read this but JJMacNab's tweets about the Seals is a fun story;
About those Navy Seals.. Now that I have a few minutes to explain why the militants thinks Seals are on the way..

"Feds love ruses."
Get that fed a ruse...
posted by Etrigan at 11:57 AM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

OPB interview with 2 of the 4 remaining militants about to start
posted by mochapickle at 11:58 AM on January 28, 2016

The act of seizing property came directly out of the left-wing's nonviolent playbook, from sit-ins to lie down strikes to taking the Dean's office. It hasn't really been a far right tactic, and, I mean, look at them. They're terrible at it.

But the far right had its own tactics all the way through the Seventies and Eighties. Killing abortion doctors and blowing up clinics. Bombing federal buildings.

They've been armed for a long time, and willing to use those arms for a long time. You don't need nonviolent tactics when you're willing to use violence, and I have a feeling this little seizure of public lands will not be repeated.
posted by maxsparber at 11:59 AM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Get that fed a ruse...

A ruse? Brrring, brrring. Hello. Hi, it's the 1930's. Can we have our words and clothes and shitty airplane back? Call you back, 1930s. And, hey, watch out for that Adolf Hitler. He's a bad egg.
posted by Talez at 11:59 AM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Did the Right ever have a moment of armed rebellion in the 70s or 80s? I know there have been some lone Right bombers, but has there ever been an armed movement?

I would consider the ongoing violence, intimidation, bombing, and shooting of abortion providers -- both persons and institutions -- encouraged by various well-funded groups and media outlets during the last few decades to be an armed moment of the political right. It's a sustained effort to change the political culture of this country using violence and threats of violence after their preferred ideas have been rejected in the marketplace of ideas and via normal political channels.

Again, contrast with the goals and tactics of any left-leaning political movement or cause since the end of US military involvement in Vietnam.
 
posted by Herodios at 12:00 PM on January 28, 2016 [18 favorites]

Also, there could be more minor charges, because two days ago a Harney County local was charged for his involvement (this may have been linked before) with the removal of the security cameras. An Oregon man involved in the armed standoff has been arrested on multiple charges today.
posted by phoque at 12:01 PM on January 28, 2016

Levi “I paid for this! These are mine!” Majors was arrested? Why do the feds always have to ruin the potential for more memes?
posted by Talez at 12:04 PM on January 28, 2016

I'm finding myself wondering if it has been as common to have people with an anti-government sentiment in actual government or law enforcement positions prior... There's the heavy handed version we see, like the neighboring sheriff, or the few "lawmakers" who have supported these guys, and there's the "not quite vocally supporting armed takeovers but still spewing anti-government rhetoric" version we see in the house and in the senate.

"The federal government should be dismantled" is a fairly mainstream view these days - I do not know enough political history to know if it is more so now than it has been before, but it feels that way compared to as far back as I can personally recall.

Not that there's a ton of outright support for these guys, but there are many messages that are being spread through very visible establisments - some with a bit of credibility - that are really reinforce the ideas that 1.) todays federal government is tyranny 2.) the point of the second amendment is to stand up to tyranny
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:04 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

That was a pretty underwhelming phone interview, OPB.
posted by cortex at 12:05 PM on January 28, 2016

Was that actually it?

Womp womp.
posted by mochapickle at 12:07 PM on January 28, 2016

There's more...
posted by mochapickle at 12:08 PM on January 28, 2016

I'm finding myself wondering if it has been as common to have people with an anti-government sentiment in actual government or law enforcement positions prior... There's the heavy handed version we see, like the neighboring sheriff, or the few "lawmakers" who have supported these guys, and there's the "not quite vocally supporting armed takeovers but still spewing anti-government rhetoric" version we see in the house and in the senate.

They're not anti-government. They're anti-not-their-government. This isn't about the rule of law or the constitution. This is about the will of the white male aged 18-65 not being the absolute authority of the people anymore.

They're little whining shithead toddlers that never learnt to share in pre-school.
posted by Talez at 12:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [12 favorites]

SQUEE! MOON LAW 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO IS COMING!

Freedom-School.com’s Court Survival Guide (pdf)
posted by Going To Maine at 12:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Admittedly I just skimmedthe first few pages but wow, that's like a Markov generator seeded with a law school syllabus.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:13 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

> They're little whining shithead toddlers that never learnt to share in pre-school.

Be that as it may, the rhetoric that they are spewing is definitely anti-govt - and that rhetoric is a great way to feed into actions similar to those that have taken place at Malheur. Not saying that the rhetoric caused it, but it certainly helps fuel the flames.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:13 PM on January 28, 2016

Idiot Legal Arguments: A Casebook for Dealing with Extremist Legal Arguments This ADL source is from 1999, but still good reference.
posted by phoque at 12:14 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Anyone want to translate what "Article III judge" means in wingnutese? I'm just finding articles on the actual legal definition, not the gold fringe version.
posted by tavella at 12:15 PM on January 28, 2016

OPB Interview: David Fry is speaking. It's chaos. They don't want to leave because they think that the FBI is lying and will arrest them all. He says they're pretty scared.

The interview keeps asking about whether the remaining four would use the guns.
posted by mochapickle at 12:15 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow this David Fry interview is nuts. I know he's scared of "weird shit" in prison but man, does he not understand how he sounds?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:16 PM on January 28, 2016

Police say surrendered militant Duane Ehmer's horse, Hellboy, is safe and being treated well until he is released

Well some may find this comforting but I say that horse was there, it participated and it needs to go to horse-jail!
I hear those two damn Beagles are still on the loose.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:18 PM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

Anyone want to translate what "Article III judge" means in wingnutese? I'm just finding articles on the actual legal definition, not the gold fringe version.

It means they're planning to not recognize the jurisdiction of the court and will claim it's not a true scotsman's Article III Court or Article III judge presiding over it.
posted by Talez at 12:18 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Interview: The remaining four want the same deal the people who left two days ago got. Sandy says she wasn't called by anyone to leave and she was left behind. She claims they had no offers.
posted by mochapickle at 12:18 PM on January 28, 2016

The actual interview is going on right now. There was a short clip, and then another short story, and now they're running a long interview with David Fry.

It sounds like the constant YouTube livestream comments about prison rape were not helpful. Fry expressed one of their reasons why they are so insistent about not wanting to face charges: "We've had a lot of morbid threats about prison, and five years of that going on..."

He says that they're "scared shitless."

He later adds: "I don't know if I want to be in prison for five years with weird stuff going on."

He adds again later: "I don't want to kill any people, but I don't want to be put in prison." Asked about violence, he states that he doesn't want to be put in a position where he has to go to prison.

I think the jokes about prison rape cause people to perceive it as a legitimate/sanctioned/expected form of punishment. Obviously that perception does not help, and it is not helpful here.
posted by compartment at 12:19 PM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sandy claims the four of them were on guard duty when everyone else left.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:19 PM on January 28, 2016

Interview: Sandy says "all the chiefs left." We had no communication. They said they were told to guard the gates. "We waited and we were left behind."
posted by mochapickle at 12:20 PM on January 28, 2016

From this LA Times piece:

The government's 31-page affidavit in support of the complaint against the eight occupiers is chock-full of their own words. It's enough to make a defense attorney weep.

Also:

Expect to see the rhetoric of tax protesters and "sovereign citizens" seeking to elevate mundane prosecutions into constitutional conventions. If the judges and prosecutors are wise, they won't get drawn into that dialogue...Twenty years ago I prosecuted a tax protester who claimed – as one does – that the gold fringe on the courtroom flag made it an admiralty court. "I'll pretend you're a boat," the judge said dryly, and proceeded with the mundane business of the case.

Golden.
posted by zakur at 12:20 PM on January 28, 2016 [19 favorites]

Interviewer: "Did you accomplish any of your political goals?"
Sandy: "We hope we woke people up to the Constitution."
posted by mochapickle at 12:21 PM on January 28, 2016

>The remaining four want the same deal the people who left two days ago

The people who were allowed to leave two days ago probably did not bulldoze over a nature preserve, threaten killing LEOS and then film themselves smoking a big bag of dope on Federal property.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:22 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

It means they're planning to not recognize the jurisdiction of the court

The P.J. O'Rourke-isms just write themselves here:

"I also don't recognize these restraints! I don't recognize these bars! I have no recognition of this cell mate!"
posted by valkane at 12:23 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Between the current felony count(s) and the fact that anyone in the world can click on a video of them exhorting violence, thinking that they should get any sort of deal is purely delusional and the feds would be stupid to make that kind of a deal. Especially with Sean Anderson, who seems to have a history of violent criminal behavior, and was actually telling people to kill law enforcement.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:25 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Interview: Another reporter is perplexed by David. Says that Jason Patrick told the group they could leave, but David Fry stayed. Also expressed confusion that David now refers to LaVoy as "that LaVoy Finicum guy" as if he were a stranger but on Tuesday night was holding his gun and swearing to avenge his death.
posted by mochapickle at 12:25 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

The people who were allowed to leave two days ago probably did not bulldoze over a nature preserve, threaten killing LEOS and then film themselves smoking a big bag of dope on Federal property.

Yup. Sheer stupidity. They would have been prudent to see that as a limited time offer.
posted by mochapickle at 12:26 PM on January 28, 2016

This week isn't the first time that bulldozer has been put to undetermined use. And the threats against LEOs has been ongoing, as far as I can tell. The big bag of dope and the beer was new, though, since the "chiefs" were gone and Mormonism always seems to go out the window when mommy and daddy aren't looking.

Sandy's insistence that they've been fucked over by the people who left, and she was "just following orders" is messed up. I think she knows it, too.
posted by RedEmma at 12:27 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Interview: Fellow reporter (John Sepulveda) says a deep rift was uncovered by all this and it continues in Burns. It seems like it will continue for a long time. It didn't end with the Bundys' arrrest.
posted by mochapickle at 12:29 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Interview will rebroadcast at 8PM (Pacific) and be up on the site sometime later.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:32 PM on January 28, 2016

I think the jokes about prison rape cause people to perceive it as a legitimate/sanctioned/expected form of punishment.

I think many people see the prevalence of prison rape as evidence that it is a legitimate/sanctioned/expected form of punishment.
posted by OmieWise at 12:33 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sandy says "all the chiefs left." We had no communication. They said they were told to guard the gates. "We waited and we were left behind."

Worst prank ever. "You all guard the gates. We're going out for more snacks and will be right back!"

When will the nerds ever learn that he cool kids are just pretending to be their friends for a laugh.
posted by JackFlash at 12:36 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sandy says "all the chiefs left." We had no communication. They said they were told to guard the gates. "We waited and we were left behind."

You know, aside from the question of how right or wrong it is to occupy a wildlife refuge, it's these kinds of little details that make it clear that these particular occupiers are kind of assholes, in addition to other things you might want to say. People here made comments about how stupid it was to put all the leadership in one place, which is true, but also how...just shitty it is to leave people behind and tell them to defend the occupation you set up, while you go off to preen and do the cool town hall meeting with the friendly sheriff.
posted by corb at 12:38 PM on January 28, 2016

I view the animals as hostages, not co-conspirators.
posted by spitbull at 12:42 PM on January 28, 2016

Judging from the reporters' comments, I don't think it actually went down like that.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:42 PM on January 28, 2016

I'll need to listen again but I think Sandy was referring to the secondary chiefs, the middle managers who were in charge when the Bundys et al were doing their event.
posted by mochapickle at 12:42 PM on January 28, 2016

Santilli himself was practically having a meltdown over Blaine Cooper being left in charge back at camp.
posted by mochapickle at 12:43 PM on January 28, 2016

Worst prank ever.

More like best prank ever. Someone should've sent Fry out for a left-handed monkey wrench.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:43 PM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

There are no questions about whether it's right or wrong, except to people who see false equivalence everywhere and reject both facts and reality.

Occupying the refuge was wrong. Occupying it with guns was wrong. Issuing threats to kill Federal officers was wrong.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:44 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oregon Standoff Militia Mix
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:44 PM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's great! I wish it was longer.
posted by OmieWise at 12:47 PM on January 28, 2016

I wish it was a few weeks shorter
posted by OverlappingElvis at 12:49 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's unlikely that she'll ever face a jury. That's not how it's done. It's much more likely that she'll—at some point—face a trespassing charge or a conspiracy to impede federal officers charge or a conspiracy to vandalize federal property charge and then given the opportunity to plead out. She'll pay a fine or take probation and goes home. Funny thing is, no one can turn a lesser charge into bigger charge like a sovcit. It's also possible, if she's like a lot of them, a refusal to plead out, or to pay a fine, or contempt of court, or what have you will put her in front of a jury.

That, that seems more reasonable. If what is required to bring and make stick charges against these people isn't as much as I figured. I look at Ammon Bundy's mess of a case and I find it hard to see the political will to fight all these cases. But I'm not a lawyer, I'm not running or funding the FBI, etc.

I am not claiming that being a woman, a Christian, or doing domestic chores should be counted as reasonable defenses; I referred to her as an example of someone who wasn't swinging guns around, who wasn't threatening anybody, who would be looked on more sympathetically than the others. I should have made that more clear.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:49 PM on January 28, 2016

Just so we are clear that Fry remains a lying sack of shit in his morning update video, here is a breakdown of the 155 people arrested at the Ferguson protests.
posted by spitbull at 12:51 PM on January 28, 2016

Oh, now they're just "camping."

I suspect they are camping out, instead of being in the buildings, and saying that they never heard about offers to surrender, were just left guarding the gates, etc. as a strategy to build reasonable doubt against the various charges that might be brought against them.

Even the partying might be a way to distance themselves from the schismatic-Mormon leaders of this group.
posted by msalt at 12:54 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oregon Standoff Militia Mix

Look! It's a hayseed "Windowlicker."
posted by octobersurprise at 12:55 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

how...just shitty it is to leave people behind and tell them t'o defend the occupation you set up, while you go off to preen and do the cool town hall meeting with the friendly sheriff

Now they know how Lt. Uhura felt; left behind to mind the fo'by and keep the hailing frequencies youtoob feed open, while the all the senior officers beam down to negotiate for dilithium and unicorns.
 
posted by Herodios at 12:56 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

The remaining four want the same deal the people who left two days ago got.

What deal did the people who left two days ago get? Anyone have a good article on what happened at the occupation the day of the arrests? How many people were at Malheur, when did they leave, and how many were arrested? All I've read is a vague "a bunch of people left". I'm curious whether they left before or after the blockade, and what law enforcement's approach to them leaving was.
posted by Nelson at 12:57 PM on January 28, 2016

according to Black's Law Dictionary.

And that's where I stopped reading..
posted by mikelieman at 12:58 PM on January 28, 2016

On the punishment question for minor participants in this siege --

everyone needs to be charged and get convictions on their record, in case they take part in things like this in the future. As someone indicated above, this will probably be done without trials and in many cases without serving time in prison. Fines, probation and community service with groups that might open their eyes to the wider world a bit.

And I'm 100% certain this is consistent with prosecution of previous similar incidents with groups on the right and left, black and white, etc.

Before you get all "YEARS IN PRISON FOR EVERYBODY!" keep in mind that the place in the entire world where white supremacist groups are most active is in prison. Do we really want to be giving them as many potential new recruits as possible? This is their ideal demographic.
posted by msalt at 12:59 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Nelson, I think the four remaining are under the impression that everyone who left got off completely, as if they'd never been there. From what I'm gathering, they started putting checkpoints up after the initial retreat timeline (late that night/early that morning?), so some people were not checkpointed/identified.
posted by mochapickle at 1:00 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

What deal did the people who left two days ago get?

Don't know about that, but 5/8 people who left last night after the shootout were allowed to leave. Of course they might (and should) be charged later, but that's just smart strategy.
posted by msalt at 1:02 PM on January 28, 2016

Although that is not to say they wouldn't be identified and charged after the dust settles. Just that they were "free to go" per police instructions that first evening.
posted by mochapickle at 1:02 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think a lot of true Americans will fund the restoration of the refuge; and actively work the restoration; to return it to normal ASAP. Burns is used to birders. The rapid restoration could be a point of national resolve for peaceful resolution, and respect for the environment.
posted by Oyéah at 1:16 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

My impression is that they stopped people who had active warrants, either for previous items or because they had specific crimes that the Feds wanted to charge them with (destroying or stealing property, harassing people in Burns), and that they have not bothered to charge anyone with merely trespassing, so the people who were just hanging around were allowed to leave. So Fry probably would be detained assuming he's got an open warrant on the failures to pay his fines etc, and Sean whathisname might be detained (though I don't know if the generic kill people who stop you spew will fly as a criminal threat in the absence of threats to specific people), but perhaps the other two would get to go.
posted by tavella at 1:16 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think the "kill people who stop you" would count as a threat, but it might count as incitement to rebellion. The question is whether they want to legitimize them by confirming them in rebellion rather than criminal activity.
posted by corb at 1:24 PM on January 28, 2016

Does anyone know who the person who left around midnight was?
posted by mochapickle at 1:25 PM on January 28, 2016

I think a lot of true Americans will fund the restoration of the refuge

We need to help Burns too, I think. I make at least an annual trip to the Northwest to go hiking, and lately it's been to the Olympics or the Cascades, but I think this summer I plan to hit Oregon again and I'm considering a road trip out to Malheur to cheer for the staff and spend some money in Burns. I'm definitely good for a contribution to the rebuilding effort too, when someone organizes that. I think the symbolism of how the country responds is crucial. Justice for the criminals, succor for the community.

It would also be good to develop a list of Burns businesses that operate online, if there are any.
posted by spitbull at 1:26 PM on January 28, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yea during that news conference yesterday Sheriff Dave Ward's emotions made me want to _do something_ to help him and Burns heal.
posted by achrise at 1:49 PM on January 28, 2016

The 4 remaining people should request a lawyer to talk to the FBI on their behalf. A lawyer could negotiate with the government and determine if they are will be arrested, allowed to leave. They might even get a deal around bail or deferred prosecution based on cooperation.
posted by humanfont at 1:57 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

They don't believe in lawyers. Lawyers are part of THE SYSTEM and are all working against their best interests (and may all be foreign agents? That part was less clear.) They'd want non-accredited "legal counsellors" to support them emotionally and also give opinions about what they think the constitution says.
posted by Weeping_angel at 2:14 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Nelson, it is really hard to pin down how many people were there but would put it at very roughly 30 at the refuge when the shit hit the fan (so to speak) and most just bailed (Fry's description of people just abandoning guns and stuff to hurriedly pack and peel out seems apt). The FBI called them and created an unfettered path for them to take. A number were at the meeting, plus the leadership subtracted from the overall number of hangers-on (especially it being after a weekend of festivities) which had elevated things to around 40 people sleeping there and number was going above 50 during the day.

Of the people who crossed the check point, the 5 of 8 let go while 3 (Patrick, Anderson (the Capt. Moroni one) and Ehmer) were taken in. I believe that number counted many who were not involved in the standoff, one of those people was a counter protester / activist who tweeted his experience, there was a reporter (possibly two) who reported on being subject to stop and search at the road block (all were aware it was going up and they would need to cross). There was also one or two good news militiamen who went to get Jason Patrick and were also subject to ID and search. I think Hunt was the only one who got a pass (he had only just showed up). Also I confused Banta (also a very recent arrival) with Wampler as I was mainly going off voice through the night. So, I may be totally wrong (which will be neither a first nor last), but that accounts for the number let pass and is my guess for now.


From the spell book/ incantation (court survival guide PDF) Going to Maine linked just up thread there is much weirdness ... but Freedom Machine is awesome!

Writing and Submitting the Appeal Brief
This is the most effort you will need to put out to finally win your case, because of alt the typing involved. But if you, or a friend have a personal computer (Freedom Machine), then you can easily copy, cut, and paste the common and repeated sections.
posted by phoque at 2:15 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Don't let me stay, don't let me stay
My logic says burn so send me away
Your minds are too green, I despise all I've seen
You can't stake your lives on a freedom machine
posted by Artw at 2:20 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

In the interview on OPB Fry sounds like he's about to bail. He's down to begging to be allowed to go home without being arrested.
posted by humanfont at 2:27 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry doesn't want to have to get his parents to cut short their trip to Costa Rica to come bail him out.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:30 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm kind of excited to see David try to apply his "but I just have a sick sense of humor, it's all a joke!" defense (from the initial pro-ISIS/Hitler/etc reporting) to everything he's been up to this month.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:33 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Again, a GamerGate tactic.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Small look at arrest location with pictures of the area, tire tracks, glass and road markings and some blood splattered snow.
The spot where Finicum died, Bundy arrested: twisting road, dense forest
posted by phoque at 2:59 PM on January 28, 2016

The attempts to equate this to occupy and black lives matter reminds me of the nonsense spouted by Gamergate.

Well... easily influenced but directionless people marshalled by organisers who seem influential and charismatic to them, but look creepy and manipulative to anyone outside. Unrealistic demands backed by implicit threats. Rambling, incoherent manifestos. Belief that saying the right words ("ethics", "left-libertarian") will protect one from liability or culpability. Difficulty knowing when to give up and go home...
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:07 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

> blood splattered snow.

Unless the photo is showing up oddly bright on my computer, that's not blood.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:08 PM on January 28, 2016

I would guess that frozen blood wouldn't turn brown, and with a white backing it wouldn't look dark, so seems likely it is indeed blood.
posted by tavella at 3:12 PM on January 28, 2016

The FBI called them and created an unfettered path for them to take.

Has this been written up in any news media anywhere? phoque, you're doing amazing original reporting and I don't mean to discount the value or insight of that. I'm partly curious in having more verified sources, and partly curious how the media itself is reporting this.
posted by Nelson at 3:13 PM on January 28, 2016

Phew, good to know. I was worried the link was too gory so wanted to warn.
posted by phoque at 3:15 PM on January 28, 2016

Well, now I don't know.
posted by phoque at 3:17 PM on January 28, 2016

Blood does indeed stay pretty red on snow. But my first impulse was that it was some sort of spraypaint.
posted by RedEmma at 3:19 PM on January 28, 2016

Yeah, either way it isn't gruesome.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:20 PM on January 28, 2016

Trigger warning, (the horse's name may not have been trigger.) Is This Oregon Life like Oregon's. The Onion? Check this out.

posted by Oyéah at 3:33 PM on January 28, 2016

For me the Gamergate comparison is more that the participants seem to default to resort to threats and intimidation when someone challenges or disagrees.
posted by humanfont at 3:35 PM on January 28, 2016

Oyéah, hover over "Latest News" for the answer to your question.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:38 PM on January 28, 2016

Nelson it was tweets from John Sepulvado of OPB

things started like this

the fbi/le has surrounded one side about thirty miles south of the main compound -- very clear this is a "golden bridge" type sitch.

road is open so ppl can still leave peacefully

then things ramped up

the fbi has surrounded all roads to the refuge -- meaning a handful of militants and media are inside.

the fbi has not indicated when they will move -- i'm hearing ppl can leave the perimeter with id and a vehicle search

and that is where we stand

that golden bridge is now just a blocked dirt road.

So really all credit goes to the great reporters in Oregon. I think I had an article too but my bookmark folder for this event is a mess right now.
posted by phoque at 3:50 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Several Twitter reports coming in that the FBI has cleared the refuge save for one person. Anyone care to speculate on who that person could possibly be?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:11 PM on January 28, 2016

Also the Bend flash alerts had some information (don't know how to link individual ones but scroll down for FBI and roadblock),
In the early morning hours of January 27, 2016, the FBI and Oregon State Police (OSP) established a series of checkpoints at major roads in and out of the refuge. In the hours prior to the checkpoints, several vehicles are known to have left the area. Since the establishment of checkpoints, a total of eight people have left the refuge. Of those, the FBI released five and arrested three.

it goes on to list the arrested and says

All were in contact with the FBI, and each chose to turn himself into agents at a checkpoint outside the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The arrests were without incident.

Also here in this Fry video they are aware of the 4 am dead line to get out indicating the FBI got information through.
posted by phoque at 4:13 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Anyone care to speculate on who that person could possibly be?

My money is on Sean Anderson, who was the one with a Federal warrant.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:15 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gotta be Dave.
posted by valkane at 4:16 PM on January 28, 2016

Am I wrong that he's the one with Sandy? The one they made fun of for his verbally violent displays with the digger in the background? If he's the one with Sandy, then I'd be surprised she'd leave without him.
posted by RedEmma at 4:17 PM on January 28, 2016

His parents are gonna be soooooo pissssed when they get back from vacation in Costa Rica. Better to just take his chances hiding out in the woods from Federal law enforcement.
posted by indubitable at 4:18 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think it's one of the beagles. They'll probably have to send in a peanut butter snack and grab him while he's distracted
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:19 PM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

It's either Jeff Banta or Dave Fry. I'd bet it's Dave, because he keeps declaring he can't live in this world with all the crazy-hateful Americans from his feed. I don't believe Sandy and Sean would separate.
posted by RedEmma at 4:20 PM on January 28, 2016

Whoever's left... that's very bad. Indicates suicide possibility. :(
posted by RedEmma at 4:22 PM on January 28, 2016

Gotta be Dave. He must feel like Beverly Crusher in that TNG episode where she's in an alternate reality, and members of the crew keep disappearing until she's the last one left.

Except Dave doesn't have Wesley and the Traveller working to bring him back to reality.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:26 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Has any press confirmed that David's parents are aware of this whole mess? It seems weird that they haven't put out a public plea that he cut out the jack-assery.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:27 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

The only indication that it's *not* Dave would be that if he were alone, it seems likely he'd be back to posting live stream video, at least to say goodbye. He's repeatedly said he's disgusted by the voyeurs who appear to want to watch them all be killed by the FBI, so he wouldn't record everything, but I can't believe he'd not post a farewell sort of thing.

so that indicates it might be someone else.
posted by RedEmma at 4:30 PM on January 28, 2016

Oh an in case there are any supporters out there ... Ammon has set up a legal defense crowd funding page!

The goal is 100K and 8 people from all over the country have flocked to his defense with 1.5k of promised funding!
Me, I'm waiting for the TED talk.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:31 PM on January 28, 2016

Reporter Matt Pearce says he's talking to Fry: "We're willing to leave, they won't let us go home".

He means, 'without arresting us for being literal terrorists'. Diddums.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:32 PM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

Has any press confirmed that David's parents are aware of this whole mess?

I am sorry I can not immediately dig up a link but in an interview with some minor league social media person yesterday David mentioned he had been talking to his parents.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:33 PM on January 28, 2016

As far as David's parents, I'd say it's likely they have been brought into the loop by the Feds if at all possible. The press wouldn't be privy to that sort of information.

This whole thing is so upsetting.
posted by RedEmma at 4:33 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why has only one charge been brought against each of the terrorists? Surely there's a lot of other federal crimes they could be charged with.
posted by grouse at 4:37 PM on January 28, 2016

Located one more snippet, Jason Patrick recording a reporter talking about the refuge vote to leave. I thought I had one where he was discussing the FBI informing them but can't seem to find it so this will need suffice.
posted by phoque at 4:38 PM on January 28, 2016

The feds are shopping for a large enough trebuchet. They want it to be a surprise, and yet not create an impact crater, when the book touches down.
posted by Oyéah at 4:41 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm skeptical of the one-remaining info: since as of 30 minutes ago, there were still four, according to Matt Pearce.
posted by RedEmma at 4:42 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Why has only one charge been brought against each of the terrorists? Surely there's a lot of other federal crimes they could be charged with.

Seat-of-the-pants guess is that the one charge brought so far was the one that would hold up in court and allow for denial of bail so the Feds can hang on to them long enough to collect evidence and testimony making additional charges more solid.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:45 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Gotta be Dave.

Weirdest season of Survivor ever.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:46 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Seat-of-the-pants guess is that the one charge brought so far was the one that would hold up in court and allow for denial of bail so the Feds can hang on to them long enough to collect evidence and testimony making additional charges more solid.

Also, it's probably not a great idea to talk about all of the horrible things you're going to charge them with before the standoff is even over.
posted by Mitrovarr at 4:48 PM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

You MUST love Voodoo Doughnuts. You must
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:52 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Also, it's probably not a great idea to talk about all of the horrible things you're going to charge them with before the standoff is even over.

If they had children there, I really hope they throw a criminal endangerment charge at them.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:01 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe Shawn because he is the only one the FBI has said will be arrested. The FBI has told the other 3 that they are free to go.
posted by humanfont at 5:09 PM on January 28, 2016

It's still the same 4 as has been out there all day-

.@OPB just spoke to Bill Fry, David Fry's dad. Says son just called family. Told him he's still at the compound with three others
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:11 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

There's a news conference right now at 530PST
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:12 PM on January 28, 2016

Surely they could just use the lube to slip out?
posted by marienbad at 5:15 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you are interested in listening to the FBI Presser starting up about now - you can find it here
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:16 PM on January 28, 2016

Link?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:16 PM on January 28, 2016

http://koin.com/koin-video-extras/
posted by Talez at 5:20 PM on January 28, 2016

The media can't wait to get in there and start messing up an active crime scene.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:27 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Apparently yes, there are still 4 or 5 left in the sanctuary. The final five.
Xylons!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:39 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

You MUST love Voodoo Doughnuts. You must

Why would you remind me? Now I'm craving weird delicious.
posted by corb at 5:41 PM on January 28, 2016

Theyre going to show the video of LaVoy going for his gun in case you don't want to watch that.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:41 PM on January 28, 2016

who will win the grand prize as the last one left?
posted by indubitable at 5:45 PM on January 28, 2016

"home of super bowl 50" flanking the image should have maybe been reconsidered for this exact stream...
posted by nadawi at 5:45 PM on January 28, 2016

Another live feed and updates here
posted by phoque at 5:46 PM on January 28, 2016

Watching the presser.

FBI: 1 more person has left the refuge. 4 left.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:48 PM on January 28, 2016

OK this FBI presser guy is kinda cute!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:49 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

FBI are going to show a video of the traffic stop, taken from aerial surveillance.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:51 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

FBI will publish the entire unedited video of the traffic stop on youtube!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:52 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Full video will be posted on the FBIs youtube channel.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:52 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fuck. Obscured views are not gonna be good for the dialog surrounding this.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:52 PM on January 28, 2016

Annnnd the video just died in the room.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:55 PM on January 28, 2016

Full FBI statement in the top post.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:55 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

FBI (speaking to the video): Finnicum tries to drive away from the stop. Almost hits an agent with his truck as he tries to avoid a roadblock, drives into a snowbank. Two (?) troopers flank him, weapons drawn. He reaches into his right inside coat pocket. They shoot him. He had a gun in that pocket.

They used flashbangs on the truck, and mop up. Several other guns in the truck, including 2 semi-auto rifles.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2016

Full video from FBI channel
posted by phoque at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2016

full video

edited video
posted by BungaDunga at 6:02 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wow.
posted by spitbull at 6:03 PM on January 28, 2016

"State troopers were the ones that fired their weapons."
posted by BungaDunga at 6:05 PM on January 28, 2016

That was pretty conclusive. Plane had a perfect view of the shooting. The "hands up" narrative is completely bogus, as expected.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:05 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Looks pretty straight forward - he resisted arrest, drew on cops, they shot him in self defence.

The only question I have is whether he was deliberately trying to run down that cop before he hit the snowbank, or was just trying to drive around the cars forming the roadblock. We'll probably never know.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:06 PM on January 28, 2016

So not complying with the police, running from the police, actual weapon where he was reaching for, more loaded weapons in the car.

We're done here.
posted by Talez at 6:07 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't think I would call it an obscured view. Not to get grisly, but Finicum was quite clearly in frame of the camera at the end, and reaching into his pocket as if to draw a gun. It was verified afterwards that he did indeed have a loaded weapon in the pocket he was reaching into.

Also, the speed at which the scenario unfolded (with them driving into the bank, Finicum jumping out, and starting to go for a gun) basically ruled out any kind of slowing down to go for a less lethal option. Only after he was down were they able to get into cover and deploy flashbangs, etc.
posted by tocts at 6:07 PM on January 28, 2016

So those reports about Ammon making a cell phone call describing the shooting are entirely untrue. He was in the Jeep, and wasn't able to see LaVoy's actions after the truck was raced away.
posted by hippybear at 6:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

We're done here.

Well, sure, we are. The lizard-people brigade will conspiracy spin until the cows come home no matter what the evidence is.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

The White vehicle drives away from the police stop at 4:48 of the edited video, and crashes at 5:50. it's over at 6:07.
posted by msalt at 6:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I could ban the phrase "high rate of speed" until the end of time, I would.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:11 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

"are they all being charged with the same crime?"
"at this time, yes."

they are so planning on more charges.
posted by nadawi at 6:11 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

"at a high rate of speed"

aka "fast"
posted by msalt at 6:11 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

So what the hell was that Sharp singer girl talking about? I guess she thought the sponge rounds and the pepper spray balls were bullets hitting the car?
posted by bluecore at 6:15 PM on January 28, 2016

First thing the wingnuts are going to say is that he had his hands up when he got out of the vehicle, as though no other action after that matters.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:16 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

The agent essentially confirmed that it was a deliberate move to capture the leaders of the occupation while they were few in number and away from their support at the refuge.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:17 PM on January 28, 2016

"home of super bowl 50" flanking the image should have maybe been reconsidered

home of the lube bowl
posted by pyramid termite at 6:17 PM on January 28, 2016

So what the hell was that Sharp singer girl talking about?

It's bonkers. Didn't she also say Ryan Payne was still in the car at that point, hunkering down on the floorboards with her?
posted by mochapickle at 6:18 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

What a stupid, stupid man.
posted by Trochanter at 6:18 PM on January 28, 2016

Also it looks like the guy LaVoy LaVeered into may have been hurt. It looks kind of like he's limping away after another guy moves into position.
posted by mochapickle at 6:19 PM on January 28, 2016

Seems clear as day.
posted by Miko at 6:19 PM on January 28, 2016

Not only did he go for his guy, but it looked like he couldn't quite get it out. Not a good time for fumbling.
posted by msalt at 6:21 PM on January 28, 2016

So what the hell was that Sharp singer girl talking about?

She sees him exit with his hands up, hears gunshots and hits the deck. Flash-bangs go off and pepper rounds start hitting the car. I can see what she *thought* was happening.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:23 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

[for clarity: My comment about views being obscured was made at the beginning of the video. I agree that the actual incident was clear as day; not that this is going to stop a billion conspiracy theories springing up around the video.]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:25 PM on January 28, 2016

I'm sorry I watched that. Pretty conclusive though.
posted by figurant at 6:26 PM on January 28, 2016

Bluecore: Unless I misheard (entirely possibly) the FBI guy said that LEOs began firing as Finicum ran the roadblock. Apparently Finicum was not injured and left the vehicle , reached in his pocket a few times and the LEOs began firing again.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:26 PM on January 28, 2016

Also, what's with these agents/troopers gallivanting off into the snow? One did that at the first stop and then sheepishly came back. The guy at the second stop nearly got killed.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:27 PM on January 28, 2016

the FBI guy said that LEOs began firing as Finicum ran the roadblock.

No shots were fired until he went for the gun according to the statement.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:29 PM on January 28, 2016

AGameOfMoans - No - see the transcript (3rd from top) http://flashalertbend.net/
posted by marienbad at 6:30 PM on January 28, 2016

OK, listening to Sharp now:

It was Bundy who was shot in the shoulder (while in the car) and Payne had already been arrested at that point, so I stand corrected
She mentions they drove off but didn't mention the snowbank
She said LaVoy was shot six times and his hands were up, she saw it
She said 120 shots were fired altogether at the car, blowing the windows out on the right side. Also that the car had been shot at when they drove off the first time
There were 40 law enforcement cars
posted by mochapickle at 6:32 PM on January 28, 2016

T.D. I thought I heard the FBI guy mention it during the QA when someone asked about deadly force - could be wrong of course :)

The thing that impacts me just now if that Finicum did all this with an 18 year old girl on board displaying a truly reckless disregard for others lives
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:33 PM on January 28, 2016

They will focus on the fact that he put his hands up. They will say he was a seventy year old guy who was disoriented after the crash. He may have been reaching for his gun or he might just have reflexively out his hands in his pockets or towards his side to catch his breath. He could also have been trying to get down on his hands and knees. They will also focus on the fact that it took police 10 minutes to begin rendering medical assistance. They will see all this as a conspiracy to murder Lavoy.

They will ignore his high speed chase. His attempt to run the road block and nearly running over the police officer. His statements that they'd never take him alive. They will focus on the frames that show what they want to see and discard the rest.
posted by humanfont at 6:34 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

LaVoy was 55.
posted by mochapickle at 6:34 PM on January 28, 2016

Fucking facts, man...
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:37 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Almost 56
posted by phoque at 6:38 PM on January 28, 2016

I wonder if David Fry watched the presser and video. If he did I wonder how he feels. I bet he is pissing his pants right now if he did.
posted by marienbad at 6:39 PM on January 28, 2016

He just turned 56.
posted by Oyéah at 6:39 PM on January 28, 2016

Facts are such downers, always getting in the way of a good story.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:40 PM on January 28, 2016

Is that stupid kid Dave outta there yet?
posted by valkane at 6:41 PM on January 28, 2016

I wonder if it is remotely possible to pierce the veil of cognitive dissonance that Fry seems to be operating under. I think it's quite possible that he saw something entirely different then we did in that video.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:41 PM on January 28, 2016

I applaud the agencies for releasing the video.

They're going to say he was trying to surrender.

His actions are baffling.
posted by Trochanter at 6:42 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

It was Bundy who was shot in the shoulder (while in the car), so I stand corrected
She mentions they drove off but didn't mention the snowbank
She said LaVoy was shot six times
She said 120 shots were fired altogether at the car, blowing the windows out on the right side. Also that the car had been shot at when they drove off the first time
There were 40 law enforcement cars

AND THEN THE FBI UNLEASHED A GODZILLA ON US. IT WAS RIDDEN BY AN UNHOLY AMALGAM OF STALIN, OBAMA AND BIN LADEN. IT BATHED THE CAR IN ITS SATAN FIRE AND WE ALL DIED IN AGONY. YES EVEN ME I AM DEAD NOW. IT FLEW AWAY DEEP INTO THE OREGON HELLSCAPE TO EAT ABORTED BABIES AND HAVE PREMARITAL SEX WITH ATHEISTS.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:42 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Killed the day before he turned 56, the happy birthday tweet was the following day from the gun nut and elected official Michele Fiore.
posted by phoque at 6:43 PM on January 28, 2016

His actions are baffling.

Really? He said several times that he would kill any cops that tried to stop him and he would not be taken alive. He was a man of his word. His stupid, stupid word.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:44 PM on January 28, 2016 [9 favorites]

AND THEN THE FBI UNLEASHED A GODZILLA ON US. IT WAS RIDDEN BY AN UNHOLY AMALGAM OF STALIN, OBAMA AND BIN LADEN. IT BATHED THE CAR IN ITS SATAN FIRE AND WE ALL DIED IN AGONY. YES EVEN ME I AM DEAD NOW. IT FLEW AWAY DEEP INTO THE OREGON HELLSCAPE TO EAT ABORTED BABIES AND HAVE PREMARITAL SEX WITH ATHEISTS

Grandpa! Get back in the house!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:45 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Grandpa! Get back in the house!

THE GODZILLA WORE AN ONION ON ITS BELT, AS WAS THE STYLE AT THE TIME...
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:46 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

federal beast instigators?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:51 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

An odd aside - the FBI mentioned the video was taken from an "airplane". But I think it may have in fact been an unmanned drone. My basis for believing that is the great many blocked out areas in the video which would normally be drone telemetry data (altitude, airspeed, lat/lon, etc) and not needed in a manned craft or seen in police aerial recon videos.

I can understand dat and time stamps but the dozen or more telemetry blocks look odd to me.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:56 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah there's nothing baffling about Finicum's actions. The only good thing that came out of that is he didn't manage to take anyone with him, despite his best efforts. I'm not a fan of police in general and hate to see them shoot anyone and kill them. But can you imagine being in that situation, a truck barreling into you and a terrorist jumping out reaching for a gun? I admire their professionalism in containing the situation so no one else was more seriously hurt.
posted by Nelson at 6:56 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

I admire their professionalism in containing the situation so no one else was more seriously hurt.

It is actually quite refreshing to see a US police-shooting story where the police were restrained, responsible and justified.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:58 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

...And people on twitter are now posting the very same video we saw of LaVoy reaching for his gun and saying SEEEEEE? HIS HANDS WERE UP AND HE WAS VERY CLEARLY SHOT IN THE BACK
posted by mochapickle at 7:01 PM on January 28, 2016

I don't get what the big deal is about whether he was shot in the back or not. Is it some kind of romantic "code of the west" bullshit?

He was reaching. If you have the shot, you take it, front, back, side, whatever.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:24 PM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

I was surprised and somewhat impressed that an officer had been placed back there in the woods behind him.
posted by Miko at 7:26 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here is an example of a wingnut first pass on the video and story (confirms all beliefs).
posted by phoque at 7:29 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some crazy conspiracy making the rounds that this whole ordeal was about Hillary Clinton stealing uranium from ranchers to sell to Russia. Or something.

I can't even...
posted by zakur at 7:29 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

something something crisis actors something something
posted by BungaDunga at 7:31 PM on January 28, 2016

Mod note: Couple comments deleted. This thread is hot enough without dumping a whole lot of one -liners into it - please refrain. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:38 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was surprised and somewhat impressed that an officer had been placed back there in the woods behind him.

So was LaVoy.

Ugh, that wingnut video phoque posted. I gotta turn this stuff off. That Doom guy has been stirring up trouble.
posted by mochapickle at 7:38 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here is an example of a wingnut first pass on the video and story (confirms all beliefs).

Jeez, the comments on that youtube video. How is it possible for people to live in a completely different reality than the one I'm observing?
posted by bluecore at 7:51 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

How is it possible for people to live in a completely different reality than the one I'm observing?

Hate is a powerful, mind-altering, drug.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:58 PM on January 28, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't understand people. Either police are supposed to render medical assistance or they are not. I don't particularly care which side of the divide you fall on,either one can be ideologically consistent. It's reasonable to suggest that since they were shooting to kill, they would not render aid. It's reasonable to suggest that as law-enforcement, their duty was only to disable, not to kill, and that aid should have been rendered as soon as LaVoy fell down. But this kind of thing where cops are supposed to render aid in all circumstances except the ones where people think the guys suck is kind of disheartening.
posted by corb at 7:59 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

From the press conference, it sounded like the scene was secured before medical aide was rendered. Sounds reasonable, given the danger to the responding officers had they not.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:02 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

But this kind of thing where cops are supposed to render aid in all circumstances except the ones where people think the guys suck is kind of disheartening.

What are you talking about? No one has said that the cops should not have rendered aid, that I can see in this thread.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:03 PM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

Looking at the video, rendering aid right away would have put officers out in the open next to a truck full of people who very well might have been planning on finishing what Finicum started.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:04 PM on January 28, 2016 [13 favorites]

No one has said that the cops should not have rendered aid, that I can see.

It's like jazz -- it's not the arguments people are making, it's the ones they're not making.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:04 PM on January 28, 2016 [9 favorites]

Did you watch the video? Or listen to the agent's commentary? They offered aid after securing the rest of the occupants in the truck, who at the time represented active threats to the officers. Did you want them to start CPR while armed 3 suspects remained 15 feet away? Should one officer have dived into the line of friendly fire to check his pulse?

It's reasonable to suggest that as law-enforcement, their duty was only to disable, not to kill

No, as has been repeated time and time again in these threads, there's no such thing as "shooting to disable". It can't be done, because of physics.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:06 PM on January 28, 2016 [11 favorites]

Meanwhile, Tamir Rice is still waiting for his medical attention from the Cleveland cops.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:07 PM on January 28, 2016 [18 favorites]

I don't particularly care which side of the divide you fall on,either one can be ideologically consistent. It's reasonable to suggest that since they were shooting to kill, they would not render aid. It's reasonable to suggest that as law-enforcement, their duty was only to disable, not to kill, and that aid should have been rendered as soon as LaVoy fell down

What are you even reading? Cops should not be intentionally shooting to kill. They're not executioners. And from everything I understand, cops are not trained to shoot to 'disable', because that's not a practical thing to do. They are trained to shoot to stop, in their own defence and the defence of others, and sometimes people die as a result. They should always render aid. Which they did in this case.

This isn't even a strawman. I don't know what it is. Straw...llama? Octopus? Nest of rats?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:09 PM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

Cops should not be intentionally shooting to kill.

They should not pull the trigger otherwise.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:12 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

An OPB audio interview with David Fry - possibly earlier today - not later than yesterday evening

Interviewer asks "What's your mental state right now?" among other things
Reveals Fry works as a dental assistant in his family's clinic
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:13 PM on January 28, 2016

Replayed from today at noon pacific.

Hmm. No new videos from Fry. I wonder if he will post again with whatever resolution.
posted by mochapickle at 8:15 PM on January 28, 2016

Wow, this is probably the best strawman on Metafilter that I have ever seen.

Yeah, I expect that nonsense on Twitter and YouTube comments, not here on the Blue. "Disheartening," indeed.
posted by zakur at 8:15 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

I mean, you have said you have military experience. In what way does it make any tactical sense to render immediate medical aid to a downed hostile person when there are several live and breathing ones within a few feet, who are believed to be armed, and who just saw you shoot their friend?

You know that just doesn't fly. So what's the reason for that flight of fancy?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:15 PM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

Also still no word on those two dogs.
posted by mochapickle at 8:18 PM on January 28, 2016

The good news patriots set up an Emergency Medical Triage Center Setup By & For Patriots In Burns, Oregon. Odd there wasn't a quicker medical response than 10 minutes.
posted by phoque at 8:20 PM on January 28, 2016

Mark my words when everything sorts out it will be those two damn dogs who will be exposed as the ringleaders
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:20 PM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's reasonable to suggest that as law-enforcement, their duty was only to disable, not to kill

Jesus, corb, you know better than that.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:22 PM on January 28, 2016 [9 favorites]

If you watch the full-length video, they do go over immediately after they make sure the area is secure. It took time for people to start coming out of the white truck, one by one, resecuring each time, and then they had to check the truck properly to make sure everyone's out.
posted by mochapickle at 8:26 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cops should not be intentionally shooting to kill.

They should not pull the trigger otherwise.

Yes, they should not shoot unless they are prepared to kill someone. But the intention of shooting should be to stop, not to kill. Which is why they should render medical assistance as soon as possible.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:27 PM on January 28, 2016

In this case, based on the video, they did so as soon as it was safe to do so.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:30 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

But the intention of shooting should be to stop, not to kill. Which is why they should render medical assistance as soon as possible.

Which they did, once they secured the other people involved.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:30 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

But this kind of thing where cops are supposed to render aid in all circumstances except the ones where people think the guys suck is kind of disheartening.

I think that someone should take this and certain related comments to MeTa in a thoughtful, reasoned manner.. I don't have the energy to do so right now, and also it's my bedtime, but nevertheless...
posted by Juffo-Wup at 8:31 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

But the intention of shooting should be to stop

The intention of shooting someone with a lethal bullet designed to kill people from a gun built for that purpose is to kill. I suppose it has the side effect of stopping.

There is no reliable way to shoot to "stop." Full stop. It is what you do when you want to kill someone.
posted by MysticMCJ at 8:31 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

why they should render medical assistance as soon as possible

Well, the cops' lives have value as well, and nobody wants a higher body count, so officer safety is a factor. Just because it's possible to save the perps doesn't mean they have a duty to do it as soon as possible. They should be expeditious, but careful.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:33 PM on January 28, 2016

"Shooting to stop" is like trying to stop your pickup truck using Fred Flintstone footy brakes. It might work but there's a real good chance you are going to get hurt.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:35 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]

How many shots were fired? How many times was Finnicum shot?

Have they released that kind of stuff?

She said LaVoy was shot six times
She said 120 shots were fired altogether at the car, blowing the windows out on the right side. Also that the car had been shot at when they drove off the first time

Is any of this correct, or has it been spoken too?
posted by Trochanter at 8:38 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

The intention of shooting someone with a lethal bullet designed to kill people from a gun built for that purpose is to kill. I suppose it has the side effect of stopping.

The outcome of this reasoning is that the Oregon State Troopers intended to kill Finnicum. I don't think that's the case. They shot him in self-defence. The intention behind shooting him was to prevent him from shooting them, not to kill him. His death was an unavoidable consequence of that action, but not the object.

But we are arguing semantics.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:39 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's kind of different if shots were fired while Finnicum's hands were up.

(Not saying fired at him, but firing at the vehicle?)
posted by Trochanter at 8:41 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

But fffm suggested that people concerned about the 10 minute delay before medical aid was rendered were wing nuts

No.

What he suggested was that the wing nuts are using that delay as "proof" that Finicum was essentially assassinated, even though anyone with half a brain (and especially people with law or military training or experience) would recognize that taking ten minutes to secure the other potentially heavily armed hostiles in the immediate vicinity is and should be basic operational procedure.

NOBODY is "concerned" about the ten minute delay except to make some kind of point about LaVoy was murdered in cold blood. (Pro-tip: that's not actual CONCERN.)
posted by soundguy99 at 8:41 PM on January 28, 2016 [8 favorites]

is there a comment from fffm that got deleted that corb is talking about? because a CTRL-f through the thread showed no comments like that, and if you want to talk about a deeply unfair and unjust characterization...
posted by palomar at 8:43 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Uh actually I said not one thing about medical attention. I was pointing out that he had his hands up briefly on exiting the truck, then reached for his gun. The wingnuts are going to--already are!--ignore the 'reaching for his gun' part. corb made up the thing about medical assistance out of whole cloth, it wasn't mentioned before.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:43 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trochanter, any shots fired at the vehicle were fired either a) as it pulled away from the first police stop, b) as it approached the roadblock, or c) or after Finnicum had been shot. Not, as far as I'm aware, while he was out of the vehicle.
posted by sagc at 8:44 PM on January 28, 2016

It's kind of different if shots were fired while Finnicum's hands were up.

Please watch the video before joining the conversation with people who have been following the story for hours, instead of dropping in and throwing uninformed bullshit at the wall.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:44 PM on January 28, 2016 [16 favorites]

How many shots were fired? How many times was Finnicum shot?

Have they released that kind of stuff?

She said LaVoy was shot six times
She said 120 shots were fired altogether at the car, blowing the windows out on the right side. Also that the car had been shot at when they drove off the first time

Is any of this correct, or has it been spoken too?

During the Q&A after the press conference, it was asked how many times Finicum was shot, the answer was that would come out in the shooting investigation.

As for what happened to the truck, they used flashbang grenades on the vehicle, and then shot non-lethal rounds that were basically small pepperspray canisters. Those statements can be read in the transcript of the press conference statements linked at Flash Alert Bend
posted by hippybear at 8:45 PM on January 28, 2016

>they used flashbang grenades on the vehicle, and then shot non-lethal rounds that were basically small pepperspray canisters.

One of the Sharp Family Singers was in the vehicle at the time after having just given a concert to the militants.
Worst. Gig. Ever !!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:48 PM on January 28, 2016

Please watch the video before joining the conversation with people who have been following the story for hours, instead of dropping in and throwing uninformed bullshit at the wall.

People are comporting themselves very poorly in this thread. I've watched the video many times. And I've been following the thread for hours.
posted by Trochanter at 8:48 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Unfortunately I am unable to find any online video of the actual press conference, so the Q&A portion isn't available to watch.
posted by hippybear at 8:54 PM on January 28, 2016

Mod note: Corb, now's the time for you to step away from this thread. Everyone else, deep breaths, and keep it civil. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:54 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

I watched the large overhead video, he had his hands up, it seemed when he heard the guy behind him, he went for his gun. Only after that you see his reaction to being shot. He goes down. I can't imagine anyone in the truck didn't duck.

It is delusional to think you can blow through a roadblock, hit an officer with a Suburban, jump out, go for a gun, and what? No hail of bullets?

Listening to the oathkeepers medical triage video, these people have been talking to themselves for a long time, preaching to their own choirs for so long; they don't realise they're all alone in their little typefest. It comes as a total surprise people have no sympathy, and in fact will jail them for acting out with weapons. Acting crazy, spouting nonsense, waving guns around, destroying US property, aiming your gun at law enforcement, makes you a target, not a martyr.
posted by Oyéah at 9:06 PM on January 28, 2016

FBI press Conference with Q&A
posted by phoque at 9:07 PM on January 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

This article has a bunch of stills from the video at the bottom.
posted by phoque at 9:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

The medical team ready to save lives, and prepared for those who may stand between them and the patriot needing saved.
posted by phoque at 9:31 PM on January 28, 2016

Okay, so Victoria Sharpe says Finicum was yelling, "Just shoot me, then. If that's what you want, just shoot me." When he exited the truck. That's different than surrendering.


The medical team ready to save lives, and prepared for those who may stand between them and the patriot needing saved.

How many of them are going to come out of the woodwork? How many of them do you arrest?
posted by Trochanter at 9:36 PM on January 28, 2016

How many of them are going to come out of the woodwork? How many of them do you arrest?
posted by Trochanter at 9:36 PM on January 28 [+] [!]

As many as commit crimes? I really don't understand why the legal system is supposed to be put on hold because these people don't like being held responsible for criminal actions.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:48 PM on January 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

To me it seems like the posturing itself is criminal. It's a threat. (I'm speaking of phoque's pictures)

In Oregon have they already broken a law? How far do you let them go?


I'm sorry, this was unbelievable

>>From the "Emergency Medical Triage Center Setup By & For Patriots In Burns, Oregon." video: "Our two medics have since had to leave, unfortunately they've got hospital jobs back in town...."

I swear it's a Christopher Guest movie like 'Best In Show,' or something.
posted by Trochanter at 10:09 PM on January 28, 2016

Out of the medical group (they were at the campground about 6 miles away) only one was arrested, because while they visited and ate, they didn't stay at the refuge. Person on left in second photo, Joseph Oshaugnessy was involved in the initial take over but left to drink and raise funds, but was in and out constantly after that. The trauma center was basically a fund raising push after they decided and rumored as hard as possible that Harney county had cut off medical service to the occupants of the refuge. While this was never announced, verified or tested, it is reasonable to assume it may have been difficult to get an ambulance to go out to the refuge, but the setup was really about bringing in and showing off guns.

The thing I found most interesting was the support and camping house they got from Mel Bundy. He kept a very low profile during the seige. I only saw one interview with him inside the refuge. So the web of involvement here was telling.
posted by phoque at 10:11 PM on January 28, 2016

The thing I found most interesting was the support and camping house they got from Mel Bundy.

Yeah, that brought me up short, too.
posted by Trochanter at 10:12 PM on January 28, 2016

Damn, that video was hard to watch. This is not going to appease anyone. People are going to see what they want to see in it. He leaps out of the truck almost before it stops moving in a panic and looks like a scared deer as he finds no where to turn, instinctively goes for his gun and then is shot down. This is awful. What a stupid, stupid, stupid man.

When it came down to it, he was thinking of no one but himself when he risked his passengers' lives in a chase and after crashing into a snowbank didn't even hesitate to check them before running for his own life.
posted by JackFlash at 10:39 PM on January 28, 2016 [6 favorites]

Still watching the 'Triage Center' video.

Where do you figure these guys are for smarts? They're pretty competent verbally. Is it that they're so tied up in their own dog whistles that they can't finish a thought?
posted by Trochanter at 11:12 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

Where do you figure these guys are for smarts? They're pretty competent verbally. Is it that they're so tied up in their own dog whistles that they can't finish a thought?

Isn't it a lot like many types of religious behavior? Someone can be perfectly competent and 'objective' dealing with part of the world around them, and fuzzy about other stuff.

Also, they're probably getting a lot of their news and gossip from echo chambers.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:43 PM on January 28, 2016 [2 favorites]

And then there's our side.
posted by Trochanter at 11:51 PM on January 28, 2016 [5 favorites]

Per the discussion earlier in the thread -- there's an exchange here where JJ McNab, who interviewed Finicum, had the same impression as Oyéah, that Finicum may have been ill, as did others in the twitter exchange.
posted by tavella at 11:57 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

As someone tweeted in that feed, we'll know from the autopsy.
posted by Trochanter at 12:21 AM on January 29, 2016

I doubt we will. If it's not related to the investigation, there's no reason for medical info to be released to the public.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:26 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the FBI would be strongly motivated to push their narrative of the events.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:48 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, even if be was ill, imputing motive based on that is basically just speculation. It's better just to go with his own published words. He said he wouldn't be taken alive, and he wasn't.
posted by happyroach at 1:49 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

>>From the "Emergency Medical Triage Center Setup By & For Patriots In Burns, Oregon." video: "Our two medics have since had to leave, unfortunately they've got hospital jobs back in town...."

I swear it's a Christopher Guest movie like 'Best In Show,' or something.

But that sky is incredible. I don't imagine the Oath Keepers were expecting to inspire a reverie on the beauty of nature, and by extension the importance of preserving our wild spaces. Kind of an own goal...

(And, inevitably, the comments look at that beautiful sky and see chemtrails. Conspiracy theorists: always reliable.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 1:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

There's a decent Mother Jones portrait of the movement:

...

IT IS EASY ENOUGH to dismiss the Oath Keepers as (in the words of Britain's Independent) "right-wing crackpots" or "extremist nimrods" (Huffington Post). CNN stressed the group's conspiracy theories in its series on militias. But beyond the predictable stereotypes, "the reality is a lot of them are fairly intelligent, well-educated people who have complex worldviews that are thoroughly thought out," says author David Neiwert, who has been following the patriot movement closely since the '90s.

...

See also Wikipedia on their recent activities at the Ferguson protests, Pacific Northwest mine disputes, Bundy standoff, and Kim Davis blather.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:42 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

While it's true enough that some of them do have strong education and complex worldviews, the fact remains that they've all chosen to embrace the whole Sovereign Citizen -thing-. In essence, that boils down to a belief that the law is symbolic magical voodoo that they -win- if they just say the right nam-shubs. (Admiralty flag! Admiralty flag!)

Honestly, the cognitive dissonance necessary to believe that kind of thing just... bothers me. I get that it's something that even a relatively intelligent person can get sucked into (if only because it would be convenient for them if true). I mean, I really do get that, but even a -basic high school civics level understanding of how the Fed actually works and came to be shows how out there the whole thing is.

And that's not even getting into the common SovCit belief that shooting Law Enforcement Officers who attempt to arrest you is okay. I mean, when does that become a thing you genuinely believe is right?

I suppose when it comes down to it, what I'm saying is: I'm not impressed by any education or complexity their worldview has, when they embrace this ideology, any more than I am impressed by the any other group of terrorists that happen to include highly educated members.
posted by Archelaus at 4:28 AM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

It comes as a total surprise people have no sympathy, and in fact will jail them for acting out with weapons. Acting crazy, spouting nonsense, waving guns around, destroying US property, aiming your gun at law enforcement, makes you a target, not a martyr.

The guy who was being interviewed on OPB yesterday, one of the last four or five people sitting at the campfire, sounded so confused and scared by how the happy adventure had suddenly turned deadly serious. It's one thing to talk tough and quite another to act that way, and I didn't get the sense that he was 100 percent firing on all cylinders either. That transition to potentially just being an ordinary felon was not what he had anticipated or was in any way prepared to deal with.

To me it seems like the posturing itself is criminal. It's a threat. (I'm speaking of phoque's pictures)

In Oregon have they already broken a law? How far do you let them go?

In Oregon (and every other state) it is not illegal to dress up like an Iraq contractor with your tacticool guns and pose for photos with your buddies. These days you can do that while smoking weed and all the local sheriff will do is wave and smile. Making threats, taking over public property, and other actions are illegal and you could potentially be arrested, but going to militia dress up camp is not itself a problem, nor should it be.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:06 AM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

She said LaVoy was shot six times
She said 120 shots were fired altogether at the car, blowing the windows out on the right side. Also that the car had been shot at when they drove off the first time

Is any of this correct, or has it been spoken too?

I think you can evaluate her veracity by asking yourself if you would be counting the number of shots fired at the vehicle you are in? Could you accurately count shots numbering over 100 coming at you? And, 120 shots at a stationary vehicle and no one else is dead? That's some pretty shit shooting. Even I could manage to kill someone with that many rounds.

I suppose the cops could have shot at the truck as it fled the first two LEO vehicles. But, why would they shoot when the LEOs know there's a roadblock a mile or so down the road? Or, why not shoot at the truck while it's standing still for 10 minutes?

She also said at one point that there were 40 cars at the roadblock. The video shows substantially fewer vehicles than that.

No, it's pretty safe to say she's spreading bunk, just like the supposed Ammon Bundy phone call to his wife saying they executed LaVoy while he was lying on the road. These people need their mythology in order to thrive. This is just how they create it. By fabrication.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:37 AM on January 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

However, preventing federal employees from doing their jobs with threatening behavior, e.g posing with guns in front of their offices, on Federal land, is, and should be, an offence.

It's easy to feel sorry for David Fry, because he is young, nerdy and pretty clearly very sad and very lost and very frightened. But not only should the law not just let him go home with no more said about the matter, it also cannot, especially when the alternative he is suggesting is shooting at them.
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:45 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think it's fair to assume there are possibly dozens more camera angles on this. We know there was another aircraft taking video, which the man giving the presser said had less useful footage. I would expect each of the FBI and state police vehicles to have their own dashcams. I imagine the individual officers may have been equipped with their own bodycams as well, but who knows.
posted by Evstar at 5:49 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

So, yeah, the medical camp guys look no more or less threatening than an average gang of inappropriately camoed hunters, but once they pull that trick on federal property...

(Which I think is why one is wanted, and the others are just being ignored.)
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:50 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

No more videos from Mr. Fry which I suppose means one of two things, either he ran out of data again and can not buy any more (yes, that was a thing for him) or the FBI has cut his cell service and because they no longer need the Intel for the remaining people. In his last couple "transmissions" he began to get upset at the YouTube chat comments people were making about him ("Never look at he comments !") and his last few videos were not live but just snippets of things that happened.

He came in there with the expressed belief that the world was with him and he was one of the good guys going to save it. Then his leader abandoned him, he was shown video that one of the "good guys" tried for a shoot out with "civilians" (the Sharp family singer girl) in the car, watched as the majority of his comrades in arms literally ran away and then he saw the world mercilessly mocking him via YouTube (as it does everyone really) so I imagine much of his world view has shattered and he must have been pushed over a ledge or two by now.

Edit: Oh ‏@amandapeacher (OPB) tweets: David Fry is not yet answering my call this morn. Last night he said the power was still on at the refuge. #Oregonstandof
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:13 AM on January 29, 2016

It's a bit like the horror movie where everyone in the audience is thinking "get out of there!" but Mr. Fry has inexplicably decided to hang around and keep doing what he has been doing.

And just like in the horror movie, it's going to get him killed.
posted by ryanrs at 8:21 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Given the descriptions of his actions and his mindset in this thread, it's quite possible Mr. Fry could decide to kill himself.
posted by OmieWise at 8:27 AM on January 29, 2016

The FBI footage is likely from a drone; just talked with someone who has seen a lot of Predator footage.
posted by wuwei at 8:29 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I applaud the agencies for releasing the video.

They're going to say he was trying to surrender.

His actions are baffling.

There should be no release of any information relating to an open case regarding a homicide. It doesn't matter who the victim is or what public issues there are out there. This is all wrong.

Having said that the shooting looks justified, he reached twice for a pocket and had said on national news media that he was not going to be taken alive.

But again, when no decision on charges or a declination of prosecution has been issued, there is no justifiable reason to release this video.

Our process only works when investigators can do their jobs without the public interfering.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:37 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

The FBI footage is likely from a drone; just talked with someone who has seen a lot of Predator footage.

The FBI is making a big thing out of showing a twin engine modified King Air belonging to Homeland Security as being the plane that took the footage. As a pilot, I am having difficulty understanding how a King Air can travel so slowly (see the footage of the LaVoy Car chase at about 8 mins) or be able to make such tight turns while orbiting the scene. The stall speed of a King is about 90 mph meaning you really can not fly it below 100 and certainly not while in a tight 60 degree turn. Perhaps it's possible somehow (???) but it looks more like a smaller. slower craft took those photos to me.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

But again, when no decision on charges or a declination of prosecution has been issued, there is no justifiable reason to release this video.

Where the hell are you getting that from? That would be an excuse for the cops covering up all sorts of bad shoots. There's such a thing as the public interest, and the FBI correctly addressed it by releasing the video.

That doesn't even consider the fact that a bunch of people are trying to gin up the shooting as a reason for attacks on people, and when this is a group that has already had hangers-on murder people. Draining even a little bit of their support would be a good enough reason alone.
posted by tavella at 9:05 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

There should be no release of any information relating to an open case regarding a homicide. It doesn't matter who the victim is or what public issues there are out there. This is all wrong.

Having said that the shooting looks justified, he reached twice for a pocket and had said on national news media that he was not going to be taken alive.

But again, when no decision on charges or a declination of prosecution has been issued, there is no justifiable reason to release this video.

Pretty funny to contrast this assessment with your Laquan McDonald analysis.

Aren't you supposed to say it wasn't a homicide, it was an officer involved shooting?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:10 AM on January 29, 2016 [17 favorites]

But again, when no decision on charges or a declination of prosecution has been issued, there is no justifiable reason to release this video.

Where the hell are you getting that from?

He's a lawyer who defends cops, that's where.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:12 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

The decision to release the video is pretty transparently an attempt to head off retaliation or other additional violence. Especially given that it's obvious no law enforcement is getting charged over this, I feel the decision is reasonable.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:29 AM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

But again, when no decision on charges or a declination of prosecution has been issued, there is no justifiable reason to release this video.

Where the hell are you getting that from? That would be an excuse for the cops covering up all sorts of bad shoots. There's such a thing as the public interest, and the FBI correctly addressed it by releasing the video.

How would the public know? Think about it this way--a video release could far more effectively cover up a shooting than a hidden video. We don't actually know what the police said in that situation. He could have said I am having an asthma attack and I need my inhaler, if I reach in my pocket will you shoot? I am having real problems here. And the cops could say we won't shoot and then pull the trigger.

The video only shows so much. When you get these files they are huge, they are filled with the statements of every officer and civilian who witnessed the shooting. Often there is a lot of information in there that no video could ever depict. Everyone is so used to the video culture that they don't realize that video, while important, only shows the visuals of what happens and can't get all the information needed for anyone to make a decision.

Witnesses who actually saw the shooting and then viewed this video could (and often do) change their accounts after seeing the video--even unconsciously.

Think about it another way--should we be releasing videos of every person suspected of engaging in a crime? Would that be right? No. Criminal defendants and potentially chargable suspects have constitutional rights. Violating them does no good for anyone.

Its simple. When a criminal case is being investigated, the evidence should be kept under wraps until the case investigation is complete. The only exception is when dissemination is needed to obtain information from the public about the crime, usually for suspect ID.

I know the idea that criminal defendants deserve a fair trial seems crazy to folks, but I think it is important.


but again, when no decision on charges or a declination of prosecution has been issued, there is no justifiable reason to release this video.

Where the hell are you getting that from?

He's a lawyer who defends cops, that's where.

Meaning the only person on all of Metafilter with professional experience in multiple use of force cases. Is that appeal to authority? You bet. But attacking my arguments based on my job and not the facts is an hominem attack.

Pretty funny to contrast this assessment with your Laquan McDonald analysis.

Aren't you supposed to say it wasn't a homicide, it was an officer involved shooting?

My position is entirely consistent. I called the Laquan McDonald shooting a homicide. Every time a human is killed by the actions of a person it is a homicide. That's what the statutes say, that's how it was described. The homicide is either justifiable or a criminal act.

Here's the consistency of my position-- Footage of Michael Brown strong-arm robbing a convenience store moments before getting shot that tends to exculpate the officer and make Brown look bad? Should not be released. Video of an officer shooting Laquan McDonald that makes the officer look bad? Should not be released. Video of an apparently justified shooting of a crazy wingnut by a police officer that clears the officer? Should not be released. Its very simple. Investigations get the result right when the pressure of our news media does not distort our view of the people involved, the person who was shot, the shooter, you name it.

I've taken this position on evidence consistently here and in other fora, including television.

You can't say it is wrong to release the footage of Michael Brown robbing that place and then turn around and say its okay to do it for other cases. That's special pleading, trying to throw a rule away to justify a preferred outcome. When we do that we get into trouble.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:34 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Nice job throwing the Micheal Brown footage of a separate incident in there, gotta hand it to you on that one.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:42 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

I am having difficulty understanding how a King Air can travel so slowly

I'm wondering too but I assume it's a very long lens and the camera is further away than it looks. Along with some remarkable camera stabilization. Given the way the viewpoint travels only forward, my guess is the aircraft was some sort of airplane as opposed to a helicopter / multirotor that can hover. So minimum 50kt forward speed unless it's something exotic. No guess as to whether it was piloted or a UAV, but I see no reason to doubt the FBI here.

I haven't seen where "The FBI is making a big thing out of showing", can you provide a link?

This Reddit discussion says the tail number is N50056, and points to this page with a photo. I've seen federal government surveillance Cessna 182s before; a King Air seems like a reasonable next step up.
posted by Nelson at 9:43 AM on January 29, 2016

>You can't say it is wrong to release the footage of Michael Brown robbing that place and then turn around and say its okay to do it for other cases.

You absolutely can because they are not the same thing and you absolutely know this.

The footage released today is to avoid further idiots being drawn into conflict with locals - which is already being attempted (as you know) on various social media groups. That video is STRONG evidence that the government acted appropriately and it preserves public safety and interferes with NOBODY'S court case as nobody is being charged in the shooting

The only thing the Michael Brown video shares with this is that they are both video.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:44 AM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]

When dealing with these people, I'd say the longer you go without releasing video, the easier it is for them to claim it's doctored or entirely fake. Sure, they'll still claim it, but they won't be able to use "what took them so long, except for them doctoring it?" claims in their reasoning. The FBI is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Might as well err on the side of expediency.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:45 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ironmouth: "Every time a human is killed by the actions of a person it is a homicide."

Wow I'm amazed it works that way in the US; it sure as heck doesn't in Canada.
posted by Mitheral at 9:45 AM on January 29, 2016

Just noticed this thread has over 3000 comments. Thanks to everyone trying to make sense of this.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:47 AM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

That's special pleading, trying to throw a rule away to justify a preferred outcome.

Ironmouth, is this "rule" a law? If so, what law is it, and why is not being enforced? If not, why should we abide by this informal rule, and why is it not a law?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:47 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

So minimum 50kt forward speed unless it's something exotic.

That's the thing a King can not go slower than 78kts (about 90 mph) and 100mph to be safe and considerably faster than that if it has to make a tight turn (orbit) . It just seemed to me that the video was taken from a craft going a good bit slower than that. But as you stated perhaps that is a trick of the lens and stabilization system being used??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:47 AM on January 29, 2016

Mod note: I am super not excited about the possibility of extending this already enormous and both figuratively and literally difficult-to-moderate thread with a rehash of an argument about whether-or-not-to-release-video with a side of "remember those unrelated incidents where cops shot black kids?" to boot, so let's leave this at Duly Noted, Ironmouth and move on on all sides there.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:51 AM on January 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

I suspect that an analysis of the uncut video--particularly the first stop--might provide a range of values for X distance at Y optical zoom and thus Z speed. I'm not sure if the range would be too wide to be useful, given current tech.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:00 AM on January 29, 2016

I'm not going to continue the derail, but I do want to note a correction:

Wow I'm amazed it works that way in the US; it sure as heck doesn't in Canada.

Yes, it does, with one exception. See the Canadian Criminal Code, search in the page for "homicide".

Homicide

222. (1) A person commits homicide when, directly or indirectly, by any means, he causes the death of a human being.

Kinds of homicide

(2) Homicide is culpable or not culpable.
Non culpable homicide

(3) Homicide that is not culpable is not an offence.
Culpable homicide

(4) Culpable homicide is murder or manslaughter or infanticide.
Idem

(5) A person commits culpable homicide when he causes the death of a human being,

(a) by means of an unlawful act;

(b) by criminal negligence;

(c) by causing that human being, by threats or fear of violence or by deception, to do anything that causes his death; or

(d) by wilfully frightening that human being, in the case of a child or sick person.
Exception

(6) Notwithstanding anything in this section, a person does not commit homicide within the meaning of this Act by reason only that he causes the death of a human being by procuring, by false evidence, the conviction and death of that human being by sentence of the law.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 205.

The United States' definition of homicide is based on English Common Law. We divide homicide into culpable and non-culpable, just as you do.
posted by zarq at 10:11 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

OPB tweeting now that they have some sort of audio from inside the refuge with details to follow soon.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:23 AM on January 29, 2016

Ah, Technical Jargon, sorry for the misinformation.
posted by Mitheral at 10:26 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I thought I heard a helicopter rotor somewhere in the films.

And there is this, if the whole constitutionalist movement has to do just the original document, sans amendments, then people of color have no citizenship or vote, women as well, making the current president illegal, as well as the supreme court, and any member of congress who falls outside the original framework.

So this Take our country back, talk is white supremacist code.
posted by Oyéah at 10:32 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

To me the fact that the agencies released the video is indicative of at least one thing for sure. They think it shows that they acted correctly.

Myself, I think there are questions.

Why does Finicum change from the arms out attitude to reaching for his pocket? The darker clothed cop on the right moves toward Finicum and stumbles as he steps into the rut. (This is at 00:34:58 by the time stamp on the video, immediately after the camera zooms in.) At that point Finicum's actions change, and at the same time, the lighter clothed cop (the one that was hit by the truck) hurries to cover. Did a weapon go off accidentally at that point? Or did the cop's stumble just startle Finicum?

Here's another one, just as to correct procedure: Why does the cop on the right expose himself, and approach Finicum in the first place? Why doesn't he just stay in cover?

Please be clear that I am in no way saying that Finicum didn't just make his last in a series of stupendously foolish choices.

Leaving the first stop. Can you really not think there would be someone ahead of you? And you're just going to ride off into the sunset? And then what? Hide out in the woods? Live off the land?
posted by Trochanter at 10:45 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also if you look closely at the pixels in the frame 3 seconds after Finicum was shot, you can clearly see a gold fringe on the flag lapel pin of the FBI agent on the snowy knoll.
posted by Nelson at 10:55 AM on January 29, 2016 [16 favorites]

LaVoy final moments;
Enhanced and Zoomed
2K Color with SloMotion (Stabilized)
5% Speed with Time Code
Up close
posted by phoque at 10:59 AM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trochanter: " And you're just going to ride off into the sunset? And then what? Hide out in the woods? Live off the land?"

People run from the cops all the time and it essentially never works out for anything serious in the long term. It's unlikely anyone who runs is thinking things through rationally and long term; they just want to get away.

Hard to tell how much of a matryr this guy was too; could be he was hoping the cops would shoot up his truck.
posted by Mitheral at 11:04 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't wait for Oliver Stone's upcoming film Finicum: what really happened?
posted by Nelson at 11:07 AM on January 29, 2016

At that point Finicum's actions change, and at the same time, the lighter clothed cop (the one that was hit by the truck) hurries to cover. Did a weapon go off accidentally at that point? Or did the cop's stumble just startle Finicum?

Look, your points don't really matter. This was a guy who said he was not going to jail, who was known (generally) to be armed, who had been spouting anti-government rhetoric during an armed occupation for the past couple of weeks. It really was incumbent on him to make sure he didn't get shot.
posted by OmieWise at 11:16 AM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's true that people run from cops every day but there are two differences here. First, it's obvious that the cops would have had a lot of time to plan the road block. Why would they leave any escape route uncovered? Second, you have at least a chance to get away in a city. This was on a country road surrounded by snow covered forest. Maybe you can get away if you get out of the vehicle but as long as you are in the SUV the only place you can go is further down the road.
posted by rdr at 11:16 AM on January 29, 2016

It sure looks like Finicum fired at the voice, or movement behind him but at 30 degrees off then tried to put the gun back in his pocket, when he turned again to the law enforcement officer behind him, he lost his life. It looked like to me, though the officer had a long gun in the left hand, the shot came from a smaller weapon in the officer's right hand.
posted by Oyéah at 11:20 AM on January 29, 2016

I think that if Finicum had fired any shots, the FBI wouldn't hesitate to relay that to the public. No?
posted by Evstar at 11:21 AM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

You're saying he got his gun out?
posted by Trochanter at 11:22 AM on January 29, 2016

Here's another one, just as to correct procedure: Why does the cop on the right expose himself, and approach Finicum in the first place? Why doesn't he just stay in cover?

Layman's read: The agents/troopers were trying to surround the vehicle to cut off any avenue of escape (the first stop has someone flanking to the right.) Initially Finicum was indicating a desire to surrender, and so someone would need to secure/search him. It's only the last second or two that LaVoy fumbles at his jacket. It *appears to me* that the initial/only(?) shot(s) came from the agent/trooper on the left. That was the one LaVoy was turning *towards* while fumbling with his jacket. (I don't believe he managed to draw his weapon, not that it matters much.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:28 AM on January 29, 2016

Again, just to procedure, do you leave cover and approach before you get him laying down?


edit:Good stuff, as always, phoque.
posted by Trochanter at 11:32 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I think we can be reasonably certain that he didn't actually get his gun out and definitely he didn't fire any shots, the FBI would have said. As to why his actions changed, we'll never really know. It could be that his fantasies of martyrdom were conflicting with his instincts for self-preservation; that would explain the whole stop the truck and then take off again thing. It could be that he had a fantasy of getting the drop on them and shooting them all down, a la the climax of his novel, and was hoping to distract them until he could get into position for such, that could explain the aborted reach and the way he was reacting to discovering a cop behind him. It could be that he was just panicked and jacked up on adrenaline and not thinking at all.
posted by tavella at 11:35 AM on January 29, 2016

Whatever the explanation, whether he was disoriented from the snowbank impact or went out there intending suicide by cop , the only real relevance here (imho ) is that he was armed to the teeth, ran an FBI vehicle stop and then tried to run a roadblock almost killing a LEO in the process. By that point he was pretty much destined for a shooting and all of this was his decision.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:41 AM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

Some people just have to do something to make their life -- or their death -- meaningful. There really seemed to be a strain of martyrdom in this group, a belief that if one of them dies, it will light a trigger to a revolution.

I suspect Finicum's lesson is going to instead be a lesson in what not to do, but time will tell.
posted by maxsparber at 11:41 AM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

And there is this, if the whole constitutionalist movement has to do just the original document, sans amendments, then people of color have no citizenship or vote, women as well, making the current president illegal, as well as the supreme court, and any member of congress who falls outside the original framework.

I believe that in Sovereign Citizen orthodoxy black people became corporate citizens under the 14th amendment, but cannot be sovereign citizens.

In practical terms a Common Law Judge will grift anyone who can pay for a Debt Nullification Seminar.
posted by running order squabble fest at 11:42 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Again, just to procedure, do you leave cover and approach before you get him laying down?

No idea what OSP/FBI procedure is, but if they're making a gesture of surrender and cutting off any avenue of escape is a priority (as it seemed to be here) why not? You're improving your view of the situation and your accuracy of rounds on target. It's when they start doing unexpected things that it gets dicey.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:46 AM on January 29, 2016

Some people just have to do something to make their life -- or their death -- meaningful.

There's definitely a heap of that from the fellow in the "Triage Center" video. I think he flat out says that, at one point.
posted by Trochanter at 12:00 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

What I find really appalling is that this is arguably one of the most well captured law enforcement shootings, and a certain crowd is absolutely convinced that it was an act of unprovoked aggression against a man acting in peace with his hands up. Personally, I think that if you look at the footage while keeping in mind that there was very strong rhetoric regarding violence towards federal officials, and that an agent was almost hit by his vehicle - itself a weapon, in that usage - it leaves little room for doubt that what happened falls well within a reasonable expectation of self-defense from law enforcement. While hands were up briefly, he shifted suddenly from a position of surrender to one of aggression. This isn't a case where there was absolutely no reason to feel that he could be a threat, far from it.

I'm learning one thing very well from this - No matter what is actually captured on film, people will always decide if it is justified or not subjectively through the lens of their own beliefs, as opposed to any sort of objective viewpoint- people will see what they want to see for others motives and actions. What is viewed as grabbing for a gun by one crowd will be viewed differently by another, some will focus only on the fact that hands were up at all, you name it. I'll admit that this probably includes me, no matter how objective I may wish to be...

Given recent history and present dialogue, I do not have a lot of hope that public bodycam footage or other will do much to either reign in law enforcement when they are trigger happy, or that it will appease the public when - as in this case - it is actually justified.

I cannot think of another incident in which LEOs were so quick to release footage, and that the burden was on them to prove that it was justified -- in what should be a pretty cut-and dry self-defensive shooting. This is exactly how law enforcement should operate -- as opposed to incidents where self-defense has hardly played into it at all, and LE has put the burden on others to prove that it was unjustified, and it takes court actions or a ton of public outrage to get them to release any footage at all. I suppose that the FBI and State officers could just be more professional about things in general, but I'm pretty cynical as to why I believe this was handled the way it was.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

The Oregonian put their video editor to work on the released FBI video and applied many slows and zooms too.
Article with video
Video on youtube

For remaining people at refuge things seemed to have calmed down and are in holding pattern;
Militants Say Negotiations With FBI Stall At Malheur Refuge
During the conversation, Sean Anderson said the group is not going to negotiate with the FBI at this time, and they are prepared to wait until all their supplies are depleted.
posted by phoque at 12:24 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

and Fry is back
posted by phoque at 12:29 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why haven't they gone back inside? Are they far enough away from the building that they're afraid the feds might have snuck in without being noticed?
posted by Evstar at 12:32 PM on January 29, 2016

Once they leave the refuge, however they do it, they will never be relevant on the public stage, again.
posted by Oyéah at 12:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

News reporters needing their subjects to sign talent release forms? What? Is this a thing that happens?
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:37 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

The talent release was from a rando person doing a documentary on the Occupation last week - not from news reporters . Fry is a bit... ummm... "confused"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:43 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why haven't they gone back inside?

Good question. Maybe the place is trashed? Boobytrapped? Or, maybe they're sticking with their earlier claim of merely peacefully camping?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:44 PM on January 29, 2016

Ha, he wants a pardon. That seems unlikely for a wide variety of reasons.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:46 PM on January 29, 2016

It's standard practice for news photographers to ask for model releases when photographing people who might not qualify as public figures and who might not be involved in obvious public interest situations, such as those slice of life pics in the Living section of the paper. I could see a cautious photographer getting releases early in the occupation because it might not have been clear that everyone would be exempt from the requirement.
posted by Bringer Tom at 12:46 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Malheur resident looking at the occupiers .

Not really, just a picture of burrowing owl at Malheur, but he looks like he would like to kick some ass. And an eyeball refresher ... the world is pretty cool.
posted by phoque at 12:46 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

>Ha, he wants a pardon.

A Presidential Pardon!
Thank you Obama!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:50 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is Obama Moon President?
posted by Artw at 12:51 PM on January 29, 2016

No, not an admirality pardon- that will never do.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:52 PM on January 29, 2016

News reporters needing their subjects to sign talent release forms? What? Is this a thing that happens?

Documentary filmmakers increasingly find them necessary for liability reasons (Fry mentioned the correct context in this last update.) See the (free) comic Bound By Law for more details.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

They should just tell him he's been pardoned and then bust his ass anyway when he leaves. Perfectly legal, give him something new to whine about in jail.

Seriously the dude is too full of himself to be a suicide threat. His hubris is not even slightly dented by the last few days. He's high on fantasy.

Mostly I just keep noticing how much trash they are piling up around their "campsite. " Rugged outdoorsmen my ass. That smarmy twerp has never been near the wilderness.

Feds ought to sic a few hungry bears on their campsite.

ETA I joke of course. No bear needs that shit.
posted by spitbull at 1:02 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Or that scary owl!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:03 PM on January 29, 2016

"He's high on fantasy."
I think he might be high on meth.
posted by yertledaturtle at 1:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

His hubris is not even slightly dented by the last few days.

He was pretty down the last day or so. I was a bit surprised to see him so cheerful/hopeful here.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:08 PM on January 29, 2016

Small aside. Actually the burrowing owl might be a female, and she may like a piece too. They look fairly similar but the males seem to have a more white beard and eyebrows (don't know the technical terms yet as have just discovered new passion for this creature).
posted by phoque at 1:10 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's called bipolar disorder.

Release hearing for the Bundy's at 1:30 PST, US Attny opposing bail for all defendants.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:11 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Judge won't release Oregon standoff defendants as long as refuge occupation continues
posted by Artw at 1:14 PM on January 29, 2016

US Attny opposing bail for all defendants.

Ya think?
posted by Trochanter at 1:14 PM on January 29, 2016

If the judge grants them release, they're going to scatter to the four corners, and that's just setting-up a more hostile showdown later, when Federal officials try to bring them in for trial.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:24 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well it was discussed way upthread they did boobytrap the place. Maybe they are just hanging out in what is an accepted, public area, rather than tresspassing, and liable for damage to the building interiors, or the booby trapping, yet undiscovered.
posted by Oyéah at 1:39 PM on January 29, 2016

> Small aside. Actually the burrowing owl might be a female, and she may like a piece too. They look fairly similar but the males seem to have a more white beard and eyebrows (don't know the technical terms yet as have just discovered new passion for this creature).

Hard to tell; the males usually have whiter heads/faces because they spend a lot of time standing on or near the burrow, keeping an eye out for food or potentially dangerous shenanigans, but I can't decide in this photo. They are fantastic owls to have a passion for. My next tattoo - March 4! - will be of two burrowing owls. Also, because no mention of these magnificent creatures is complete without it, here is the Dead Milkmen's Stuart. JUMPIN JESUS ON A POGO STICK, EVERYBODY KNOWS THE BURROW OWL LIVES IN A HOLE IN THE GROUND.
posted by rtha at 1:40 PM on January 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

Well, that will put some interesting pressure on the holdouts. It puts the guys in jail under pressure to beg Fry et. al. to get out so they can get bailed out.
posted by RedEmma at 1:49 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think they are camping for a variety of reasons, including:

1. Less liability—they "aren't doing anything illegal" (in their mind, I mean)
2. There are only four of them. Being camped in an open area behind a earth berm across the driveway is more defensible than being inside a building or amongst that cluster of buildings, where they could be snuck up on. Also, they want to be very close to their supposedly packed vehicles.
posted by RedEmma at 1:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

In fact, if there's more than one entrance to the buildings, what the Feds should do is come at the buildings from the other way, secure them, and make the holdouts sit there on the road with no way to back up to the buildings for as long as they want to sit there.
posted by RedEmma at 1:57 PM on January 29, 2016

IN RESPONSE TO THESE EVENTS, PACIFIC PATRIOTS NETWORK

IS ISSUING A

CALL TO ACTION

Well I guess we get to find out if the shit hits the fan or they're full of shit.
posted by Talez at 2:16 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

We ask that you email us at [e-mail] if and when you are planning to come and stand in Burns, Oregon.


Trolls, start your engines.
posted by Evstar at 2:24 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Will they be parachuting in like the last bunch were (literally) supposed to?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:27 PM on January 29, 2016

Well, either this is going to fizzle, or it is going to be a very very long thread.
posted by hippybear at 2:27 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

PPN condemns the violent action taken by the Harney County Sheriff's Department along with the FBI in the shooting death of Mr. Lavoy Finicum

who was shot by a state officer who is neither of those
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

who was shot by a state officer who is neither of those

You dumb traitorous liberals and your "facts".
posted by Talez at 2:29 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

oathkeepers also reposted the call to action as the first entry, so this is hitting all of the fringe groups.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:31 PM on January 29, 2016

Interesting demand from the PPN:

Immediate removal of all militarized FBI personnel and equipment from Harney County

They just hate it when the feds play soldier.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:33 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now I'm actually curious about who will take it upon themselves to respond to this call to action, how far they will travel to get there, and whether any of these groups realize that their call to action is entirely public and has been monitored by the authorities, who will already have plans in place to deal with them once they get there.

In a more perfect world, all the online bravado preachers will just look at what is being asked (time away from work and family, fully-self-sufficient [involves a lot of money]), wintertime cold, etc) and realize that they really can't be bothered.
posted by hippybear at 2:35 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Please come prepared with civilian attire and adhere to the policy of no long guns within the community.

willing to bet this request doesn't get followed.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:36 PM on January 29, 2016

Unfortunately, hippybear in our less perfect world there is a reasonable chance one or two unbalanced individuals will make it out there and pave another road to tragedy :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:37 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oooh now the feds have really done it. This time for serious boys. Pack your socks and dildos and snacks. We're on the march.

Lemmings have more common sense.
posted by spitbull at 2:37 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Lol it's going down to 9 degrees in Burns on Saturday.
posted by spitbull at 2:40 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, either this is going to fizzle, or it is going to be a very very long thread.

Well, the "Owner" of this site and his running dog "Moderators" has been known to ignore the sovereignty of Thread Residents, evicting them after 30 days. We should probably start preparing the terms of the transferral of this thread to its rightful owners (that would be US, obvs...) so WE don't end up ambushed with THEIR bean-law.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:44 PM on January 29, 2016 [36 favorites]

Revolution is a dish best NOT served cold!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:45 PM on January 29, 2016

Damn Admiralty Moderators.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:46 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Damn Admiralty Moderators.

It was all those donations. Cortex was finally able to afford that corporate MeFi boat.
posted by Talez at 2:48 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's a common myth that Stan Chin once had a gold star. It was, in fact, a gold fringe.
posted by cortex at 2:49 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

Is that why humans have chins?
posted by Talez at 2:50 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Calling on any and all Americans to come to Burns, Oregon to come to the aid of the American people standing against these violent, malicious and deceitful tactics. Come stand together with other Americans, and express our Constitutional right to PEACEFULLY assemble and air our grievances.

COMPLETELY oblivious to what the Americans of Burns, Oregon might want.
posted by Trochanter at 2:53 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

FWIW I have been noticing a trend among Twitter sock accounts - there are a huge number of them created using a woman's name and using an attractive photo of some sort as well as their being created in the last quarter of 2009 for some reason.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:54 PM on January 29, 2016

Well, either this is going to fizzle, or it is going to be a very very long thread.

On the very first day of the occupation, Bundy put out a call for reinforcements that went almost entirely unanswered by all the so-called militias. Most of the people who actually came & joined them at the headquarters were lone wolves. I seem to recall them going aggro on Facebook because they were getting such a tepid response, including the "patriot" who couldn't come because he was waiting on his disability check. Seems like most of militia types love to play weekend warrior, but when the rubber hits the road, they're suddenly very busy at that time. I'm going with fizzle.
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:56 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

AirBnB listing for room at the Malherr refuge:

This space is only available for a limited time! We just had some space in teh refuge open up. You will be welcome in a community of like-minded individuals. Tensions can run high, but everyone is very passionate! Must be gun-friendly.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

i guess if you remove the tyranny of user account fees and hand moderation over to the people you end up with reddit
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:02 PM on January 29, 2016

and by handing over to "the people", i of course mean handing over exclusively to those who we actually don't want here who were also never part of the community in the first place
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:07 PM on January 29, 2016

I for one am cool with a little CSS magic to add a gold fringe to the edges of this page. PB, are you out there?
posted by spitbull at 3:12 PM on January 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

All this SovCit and Admiralty Law stuff, this is that Freeman on the Land thing, is this right? Where you just say some magic words and the corporate body which is not you but represents you is tied to the state is freed. Or something like that, I am hazy on the details as I have never bothered to look into it too much as it always seemed like such utter nonsense.

Man this is like the best soap opera ever, especially for non Americans. Honestly, you have such a bad reputation all over the world already, and this is just reinforcing it. Awesome!

Hey, gun nuts of America, *waves* hello from England, hope you're having fun!
posted by marienbad at 3:12 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, the "Owner" of this site and his running dog "Moderators" has been known to ignore the sovereignty of Thread Residents, evicting them after 30 days.

Since so much of this thread has been about the entertaining streaming videos what we should obviously do is make a new camp over in FanFare, where the threads don't expire.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:16 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am hazy on the details

That's ok, the details themselves are fuzzy
posted by BungaDunga at 3:19 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

IN RESPONSE TO THESE EVENTS, PACIFIC PATRIOTS NETWORK IS ISSUING A CALL TO ACTION

It's too bad Darren Huff is in jail, he could bring his own dildos.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:22 PM on January 29, 2016

New Fry video

Shows interior of some barracks building on refuge where they may be staying
Place is kind of trashed
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:47 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Since so much of this thread has been about the entertaining streaming videos what we should obviously do is make a new camp over in FanFare, where the threads don't expire.

We just need to add the videos to IMDb and then Fanfare will let us add them as a show.

I'm kinda sad the Star Wars thread hasn't gotten to 3000 yet
posted by numaner at 3:51 PM on January 29, 2016

> IN RESPONSE TO THESE EVENTS, PACIFIC PATRIOTS NETWORK IS ISSUING A CALL TO ACTION

I'm falling down a rabbit hole of links. I wonder if this is going to make the ads Facebook shows me more accurate? Will I get ads for camping gear and bird sanctuaries (yay!) instead of homeschooling supplies and makeup (booo!) like I do now?
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Good news patriot, Bj Soper (facebook post) the guy who wrote the call to action alert and who was lauded for his stand by call;

I am done folks... These kid gloves are off here in burns... There is no honor in this government or agencies.

First, Lavoy is MURDERED in cold blood yesterday

today they told Jason Patrick he was FREE TO GO today. Free to go. The man walked 7 miles from the refuge in the dark and cold to be ARRESTED at the checkpoint.. What the fuck is that!!!
I'm calling for every damn patriot to get to Burns, Oregon. It is time we show this government exactly who works for who... -End

In a more recent post he of course sees parallels between the struggle in Burns and the civil rights movement and MLK and Rosa Parks. Not that that is new, it has been a constant bizarre refrain.

But at least the Bundy gang will remain in jail (tweet)
posted by phoque at 3:54 PM on January 29, 2016

PACIFIC PATRIOTS NETWORK IS ISSUING A CALL TO ACTION

Ah, patriotism—the last wildlife refuge of a scoundrel.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:58 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Why does Finicum change from the arms out attitude to reaching for his pocket? The darker clothed cop on the right moves toward Finicum and stumbles as he steps into the rut. (This is at 00:34:58 by the time stamp on the video, immediately after the camera zooms in.) At that point Finicum's actions change, and at the same time, the lighter clothed cop (the one that was hit by the truck) hurries to cover. Did a weapon go off accidentally at that point? Or did the cop's stumble just startle Finicum?

Whether or not an officer's actions startled the suspect or not is immaterial to the analysis. That's because the question asked in an analysis of whether a shooting is justified is whether or not the officer reasonably believed that the suspect was imminently going to cause severe bodily injury or death before opening fire. It does not mean anything whether an officer's act made a suspect feel threatened. This is especially true because the suspect has no right to assault an officer conducting a lawful arrest.
posted by Ironmouth at 4:02 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Whether or not an officer's actions startled the suspect or not is immaterial to the analysis.

I wasn't trying to justify anything. Only to understand why Finicum would go from a posture of surrender to going for his pocket.

But, as I said above, Victoria Sharpe says Finicum was yelling, "Just shoot me, then. If that's what you want, just shoot me." When he exited the truck.

And then the arms out posture would be more of a "come at me bro" gesture.
posted by Trochanter at 4:12 PM on January 29, 2016

Victoria Sharp is not a trustworthy narrator, if you haven't been paying any attention whatsoever.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:16 PM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]

Also, he's very clearly reaching across his body. If he was just startled or struggling for balance or even if he was clapping a hand to a wound per the wingnut interpretation, arms would stay on their own side of the body. The only reason to reach for your left hip with your right hand in that situation is if you are a right handed shooter trying to do a crossbody draw. He tries it a couple of times, actually, but the one that killed him is extremely obvious, about 19 seconds into the Oregonian video. Left hand down to stabilize the holster/pocket, right reaching over to pull the gun. I'm pretty sure the shooter behind him, near the road, recognized that stance as clearly as I did (we are seeing it a nearly the same angle) and shot in reaction to it. He or she didn't really have an option to wait to see if he actually had a gun - it looks like the cop Finicum is turning towards had only a taser out, not a gun, and Finicum wouldn't even have had to get his gun out of the pocket to shoot him.
posted by tavella at 4:21 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Bundys and Ryan Payne denied bail, Joseph O'Shaughnessy (the guy who drank all the donation money early on) was granted bail but the US Attorney appealed so he'll sit till at least Tuesday. Santelli and at least 3 others still pending hearings.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:25 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Victoria Sharp is not a trustworthy narrator, if you haven't been paying any attention whatsoever.

Yeah, her numbers seem way wrong. Except, I don't see why you'd question too much the shot six times one. I'm pretty sure the empty your clip rule still goes, and the officer on the left who shot does seem to immediately reload.
posted by Trochanter at 4:31 PM on January 29, 2016

Actually, I believe parts of Victoria's narrative, from her "let's create a myth" perspective, and reading between the lines.

I think she's a kid, and she's going to exaggerate to make her own story/the myth look good: hence the "forty police cars" and "hundreds" of shots (she misinterpreted gunshots when they were actually cannisters and flashbangs)... those are kind of like stress exaggerations. I believe her that he left the car shouting "shoot me then"... but she would have been on floorboards throughout this... she's scared out of her mind, undoubtedly.

He holds his hands up, knowing he has a gun, and dares them to shoot him. When they don't, he reaches for his gun to ensure his own death. That's what I see in the video, and that's accepting her interpretation as much as one can.
posted by RedEmma at 4:33 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Stabilized GIF of the shooting.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:47 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

New Fry Live Feed scheduled to start soon

The commenting has already begun
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:49 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

The stabilized image makes his gesture of drawing a firearm much clearer.
posted by humanfont at 4:54 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bundy's lawyer is holding a news conference - livestream
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:05 PM on January 29, 2016

The dogs are okay.
posted by phoque at 5:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

This is especially true because the suspect has no right to assault an officer conducting a lawful arrest.

And remember, this suspect has been recorded multiple times proclaiming that a person under what he thinks is unlawful arrest has the right to kill the cop arresting him.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:13 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I yelled listening the lawyer call it "civil disobedience"... ARGHHH

Civil disobedience is by definition unarmed. Goddammit.
posted by RedEmma at 5:15 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bundy's attorney sounds like something of a "true believer". I wonder whether he is, or whether he's just doing his job the best he can.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 5:15 PM on January 29, 2016

Oh no... I think he's definitely an activist lawyer. (True believer all the way.)
posted by RedEmma at 5:17 PM on January 29, 2016

Wow that stabilized gif makes it pretty clear. Finicum probably thought he would make a dash for the woods after pretending to surrender, but was surprised by the agent who came out of the woods. As noted above the Feds had plenty of time to cover all the exits. Realizing he was trapped Finicum goes for something in that pocket with both hands, and it sure looks to me like a cross-body draw.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:18 PM on January 29, 2016

YouTube stream commentators amusing themselves in anticipation:

mjspdrpj2333: Bohemian Tarpsody
Richard Nixon: Tarp by Tarpwest
Pewpew Patriots: LEEVVVVOOOOOOOYYYYY JEEEENKINS!
alvaskins: To Kill a Tarpingbird
ChasinAces: The Tarps of Hazzard
profane1972: The Tarpian Candidate

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:18 PM on January 29, 2016

In fact, it sounds like he's motivated to keep this drawn out as long as possible, so as to retain the most soundbytes and news hours.
posted by RedEmma at 5:18 PM on January 29, 2016

I was hoping he was just doing his job.


"Open carry is free speech." "And it is not a threat."

I just don't see that. What the hell else is it?
posted by Trochanter at 5:18 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow that presser was unreal. Totally a different narrative from that which they went in with at the start of the occupation. Still waiting for Fry, the comments on that are also unreal.
posted by marienbad at 5:21 PM on January 29, 2016

RedEmma: (she misinterpreted gunshots when they were actually cannisters and flashbangs)

Additionally, they used "sponge rounds" to break the car glass (but not actually shoot the occupants) and shot pepper rounds into the car, which I believe are just paintball rounds filled with pepper dust instead. I'm guessing it was a rapid-fire paintgun, which would've made lots of thuds as they filled the car. I'm sure it *felt* like lots of bullets to a shocked occupant.

That plus "on his knees" = "up to his knees in snow" makes it easy to see how her testimony skewed the narrative.
posted by bluecore at 5:26 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Legal bios of Lissa Casey, Ammond's actual lawyer (who was prevented from speaking much) and Michael Arnold, the guy you saw talking in the presser and the managing partner of the law firm that was assigned to be Ammond's public defender.

Better
Call
Saul !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:27 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, Cox and O'Shaughnessy will be released on Tuesday, Ehmer and Cavalier need time to meet lawyers, Santilli will get a decision Monday and the rest stay put.

Judge rejected arguments that refuge takeover was peaceful 'Here the tactics were far too drastic' she said

Story should get updated here
posted by phoque at 5:32 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeaaaaah. Lissa may be just a grunt, but Michael uses the "liberty" buzzword and the language in his bio tells me (between the lines) that he's totally a volunteer for this case. Is he truly a "public defender"???
posted by RedEmma at 5:41 PM on January 29, 2016

I mean, he is just chosen out of the field, or did he volunteer?
posted by RedEmma at 5:41 PM on January 29, 2016

It's a great case. One of Tom Wolfe's "Great White Defendants".
posted by Trochanter at 5:44 PM on January 29, 2016

Eh, if you're a public defender in that area, it might behoove you to read up on them.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:44 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bundy hired him I believe, he's the only one that had a non-appointed lawyer as of this morning. Likely already had him picked out before hand.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:44 PM on January 29, 2016

Mike Arnold seems to be in the Top 100 Trial Lawyers! Was anyone expecting the Bundy's not to bring in the big guns?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:44 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ammon is paying for his lawyer, all the rest have chosen (been appointed) public defenders.
posted by phoque at 5:44 PM on January 29, 2016

That Arnold Law Firm Guy , Michael Arnold, turns out that he was officially reprimanded by the Oregon State Bar for criminal activities that should have got him a prime spot on To Catch A Predator - no fooling.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:45 PM on January 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

John Sepulvado is tweeting some clarifications;
they don't have public defenders. they have court appointed attorneys. only one, ryan payne, has a PD

court appointed attorneys are paid for by fed money but they are indy contractors. it's an important distinction
posted by phoque at 5:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow.

Mooncreep.
posted by Artw at 5:53 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Newer streaming setup
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:56 PM on January 29, 2016

The Fry Feed linked above has been removed by the user.
posted by marienbad at 5:57 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Arnold was the prosecutor for the City of Florence at a hearing in which a minor pled guilty to driving under the influence of intoxicants and entered into a diversion agreement. Arnold subsequently contacted the minor, ostensibly for the purpose of checking up on her, and suggested that they meet. Arnold drove the minor to a restaurant and purchased two glasses of wine for her in violation of ORS 471.410(2), which prohibits anyone, other than a parent or guardian, from selling, giving or otherwise making available any alcoholic liquor to a person under the age of 21.

Yep, this is gonna be fun.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:00 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the operating principle of Arnold's law firm is that if he can pull that and still be a lawyer, whatever trivial shit they're charging you with will be no problem at all!
posted by Mitrovarr at 6:14 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

"Open carry is free speech." "And it is not a threat."

I just don't see that. What the hell else is it?

When I see someone carrying a firearm in a public space, I leave. And I tell someone who might be in charge that I am leaving because there is a gun present. Who has time and energy for that?

There are open carry people in the furry fandom, and they make me nervous every time they show up, and I always try to leave. Having a gun present presents much more danger than having no guns present.
posted by hippybear at 6:39 PM on January 29, 2016 [12 favorites]

What else can a gun say?
posted by Trochanter at 6:49 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Pacific Patriots Network demands: - Immediate detention by Oregon State Police of the FBI special agent in charge along with all agents and LEO involved in the shooting death of Lavoy Finicum. A first hand eyewitness account presents reasonable cause for arrest while the investigation takes place.

Hahahahaha inconceivable. What makes you think that's going to happen this time, when even an entire country overwhelmingly demanding that has not been able to make it happen before? For the shooter much less the whole crew on scene.

I guess you might as well throw an unachievable demand in there, so you can continue to be outraged.
posted by ctmf at 6:52 PM on January 29, 2016

I look forwards to their continued concern when the officer involved shooting involves an unarmed black man.
posted by Artw at 6:59 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Correction, Ammon isn't paying his lawyers ... as such,

Ammon Bundy's attorneys have set up a crowdfunding site to pay his legal bills.

Speaking Tuesday after his arraignment, Bundy attorney Michael Arnold told reporters that he had been authorized by his client to set up the web page.

"This crowdfunding site is just to give him access to funds for initial attorney fees," Arnold said, "and hopefully for help with bail."
posted by phoque at 7:08 PM on January 29, 2016

There are open carry people in the furry fandom

So your fantasy of being a forest animal includes packing a gun? That could make for some real interesting fantasy nature trail walks. Saw a gang of squirrels sticking up a raccoon and then the 'coon pulled an auto on them, would have been a mess if the Duckstapo hadn't shown up with their wing-mounted Rugers.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:21 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

A wingnut youtube station, called The Watchman News, is giving a live interview with Fry and the other 3 militants now. Sean gives his opinions on how unfair it is that "those black panthers who are always yelling Kill Whitey" are not being charged but he is. And that's the part that probably puts them in the nicest light.

The militants are claiming that it is no longer about Ammond but about them. Still same demands - they want no consequences for their actions.

They live in different worlds than we do.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:23 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

So your fantasy of being a forest animal includes packing a gun? That could make for some real interesting fantasy nature trail walks. Saw a gang of squirrels sticking up a raccoon and then the 'coon pulled an auto on them, would have been a mess if the Duckstapo hadn't shown up with their wing-mounted Rugers.

You ever seen Woodland Critter Christmas? Those forest animals are fucking psychopaths.
posted by Talez at 7:24 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Saw a gang of squirrels sticking up a raccoon and then the 'coon pulled an auto on them, would have been a mess if the Duckstapo hadn't shown up with their wing-mounted Rugers.

♫ Me knew an acorn dealer by the name of Peter; had to buck him down with my nine millimeter... ♫
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:26 PM on January 29, 2016

Oh, wow, AGameOfMoans.... This interview.

Link to wingnut channel (not safe for reality)
posted by mochapickle at 7:32 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yup that interview. It's full of moonbattery badness. Even the wingnut moderator really seems taken aback by their views.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:34 PM on January 29, 2016

1. Fry expressed his complete bafflement about Ammon's Phase 1 vs. Phase 2: He doesn't see it for the tapdance it is; had no idea Phase 1 involved getting caught and going to jail
1a. Still thinks Ammon is a good guy
2. Sees no point in going home only to face charges later
3. They predict law enforcement will soon use force

Fry is awfully chatty!
posted by mochapickle at 7:38 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

4. Is completely baffled why the FBI won't drop Sean Anderson's charges.
posted by mochapickle at 7:40 PM on January 29, 2016

1. Fry expressed his complete bafflement about Ammon’s Phase 1 vs. Phase 2: He doesn’t see it for the tap dance it is; had no idea Phase 1 involved getting caught and going to jail
1a. Still thinks Ammon is a good guy

Sorry, I’m confused. Do we now think that Ammon’s plan all along was to get arrested?
posted by Going To Maine at 7:41 PM on January 29, 2016

Fry's flying high. He thinks himself the hero. The last holdout. He's having his fifteen minutes, and he ain't giving it up for nothing.

I mean, he's made his peace with accepting the "deal," so now he's just staying in solidarity; he's relaxed into his role.

Sandy too. Oy.
posted by RedEmma at 7:42 PM on January 29, 2016

"I know a lot of people who made that fed felony deal..... ruined their lives..."
posted by valkane at 7:44 PM on January 29, 2016

Ammon tried to distance himself from the on going occupation. In court today, when asked about 'David Fry', said he didn't recognize the name.
posted by phoque at 7:45 PM on January 29, 2016

Sorry, I’m confused. Do we now think that Ammon’s plan all along was to get arrested?

Fry seems to have swallowed that line. The refrain from that side seems to be that Ammon had to get arrested so he could take this issue to the courts.

Which, haaaaaaaaaa. Just no.
posted by mochapickle at 7:45 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I doubt this will continue much longer. It's 4 people and they will all fall asleep eventually.
posted by humanfont at 7:47 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Whoa... Sean announces that he and Sandy will not kill themselves; that if they die, they've been shot by the Feds. Fry interjects to let us know that he can't promise the same. Fry reserves the right to shoot himself if necessary.
posted by RedEmma at 7:48 PM on January 29, 2016

14 page PDF of judges holding reasons.
posted by phoque at 7:48 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Because he doesn't want to go to prison.
posted by RedEmma at 7:49 PM on January 29, 2016

Because of the sodomy, you guys.
posted by mochapickle at 7:50 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think they've been sleeping fine since the chaos first night after Lavoy's death/the arrests. Now that it's clear the Feds aren't going to shoot them, they're just hanging out for the news cycles, pretending not to hear Ammon Bundy's pleas to stand down.
posted by RedEmma at 7:52 PM on January 29, 2016

Fry is awfully chatty!

He's so energized and voluble compared to last night and yesterday. The ping-ponging is amazing. I'm not sure it's right to call it "bipolar" as my understanding is that swings don't happen so quickly. It's intense and odd, though.
posted by Miko at 7:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've gotta admit that I have a soft spot for David. He needs to do time for the shit he's pulled, he needs some serious mental health treatment, and he definitely needs to take responsibility for his actions, but I still want to give him a hug. I wouldn't bet money on him turning his life around, but this seems as decent a place as any to hit bottom. He's fucked up in a massive way, but he's so young and untethered that I'd love to see him redeem himself some day and not just off himself.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:54 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I keep forgetting he's 27. I was thinking he was maybe 18-19.
posted by mochapickle at 7:56 PM on January 29, 2016

I wouldn't be surprised if Bundy's pleas to stand down weren't a last ditch effort to keep these guys from smoking a bunch of dope and dancing to country music (as he knew they would) thus tarnishing the last few days of Mission Birdwatch Hijack.
posted by valkane at 7:56 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

>I've gotta admit that I have a soft spot for David.

I feel that way too sometimes. Then I remember that he is a Nazi and the only hug I would like to give him is around the neck. Sorry ... no sympathy for Nazis on my end. Some lifestyle choices are forever.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:58 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

And that "David Who?" line from Ammon is just precious. Judas much there, Bundy?
posted by valkane at 7:59 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't be surprised if Bundy's pleas to stand down weren't a last ditch effort to keep these guys from smoking a bunch of dope and dancing to country music (as he knew they would) thus tarnishing the last few days of Mission Birdwatch Hijack.

Whatever the original point about land use was, all this is going to be remembered for is dildos and Fry's insane livestreams, Ammo's "revolution" or whatever the hell his message was even supposed to be made zero impression on the national conscious outside the closed Patriot-Sovereign infoloop.

Fry is the star of this show now, wherever that leads.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:00 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

He reminds me of all the mentally ill, almost homeless folks I knew in my twenties. Completely misguided, who's just glommed on to the activist train that grabbed him. He could just as well been at an Earth First tree sit, Venice Beach, or anywhere else the unstable gutter punks go as at this event.

The leaders of this takeover never banked on renegade idiots of this sort, and now they're stuck in jail (at least that's one of the barriers to their bail) as a result. Ha.
posted by RedEmma at 8:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Exactly, T.D., and you know Bundy was thinking the same thing in his cell. "If we don't get those numbnuts outta there....."
posted by valkane at 8:03 PM on January 29, 2016

Note: I am not discounting that Fry chose an especially evil path, and that he's an "activist" only in the sense that he has a cause. But I think the chances are, given a particular friend or a chance encounter on a different path online, and he'd be espousing any number of other out-there causes.
posted by RedEmma at 8:04 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Live feed just came back up.
posted by Miko at 8:06 PM on January 29, 2016

The beauty is not only was Bundy an ineffective leader, but his least minions won't follow his simplest orders.

I was struck by how all the livestreams I watched, most of the, um, heavier, older gentlemen seemed to discount David and treat him as less than. And now he's in charge. I do hope he gets out alive.
posted by valkane at 8:06 PM on January 29, 2016

John Sepulvado ‏@JohnLGC of OPB just tweeted :
PPN members say they're not scared of getting killed in raid, but "can't see a way."

So uhh.... yaaaa... we'd really like to extract you buy uhhh we just don't yahhh.... see a way. So uhhh.. we tried and all - 'kay??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:06 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, they are camping! Why are they not inside, again?
posted by mochapickle at 8:08 PM on January 29, 2016

Something is happening on the Live Feed... like they say a convoy just arrived... they're getting their guns...
posted by RedEmma at 8:08 PM on January 29, 2016

More Blair Witch David.
posted by valkane at 8:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

And a spotlight!
posted by mochapickle at 8:09 PM on January 29, 2016

I completely agree, RedEmma, and for that reason I have often felt, watching him and others, like I am seeing a stock character in a drama play out. He's the naive young guy in a World War II film, he's Scooter or Gonzo in the Muppet Movie, the Angry Young Man, etc. Through this I've been reflecting on the narrowness of the avenues through which so much American masculinity travels, and it creates and re-creates these predictable arrangements. The ideologies differ, but the outcomes, emotionally, seem very much the same.
posted by Miko at 8:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

It’s telling of their world-view that, even now with their childish plans laying around them in ruins, they think they are in the position to make demands.
It’s all very Mortimer Duke.
posted by blueberry at 8:11 PM on January 29, 2016

They seem to be gearing up to call that Michael Arnold law firm guy - seem a bit desperate about it for some reason. Perhaps he'll offer them a glass of Chablis ?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:13 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's the naive young guy in a World War II film

He's the kid from the AV Club and now all the football players have been hauled off campus.
posted by valkane at 8:13 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

That UPS beeping just lends a touch of NASA footage, doesn't it?
posted by valkane at 8:14 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Difficult to decipher audio but Sean (OCG) is saying to someone on a phone "I got to talk to my people first"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:15 PM on January 29, 2016

Watch the cars just be guests from a block party who have taken a wrong turn.
posted by mochapickle at 8:16 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean confirms to someone on the phone that 4 vehicles have pulled up nearby

David feels there are drones outside
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:17 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Don't let it be Oathers.
posted by Trochanter at 8:18 PM on January 29, 2016

And that "David Who?" line from Ammon is just precious. Judas much there, Bundy?

Peter. Judas didn't deny Jesus, he just got paid.
posted by cortex at 8:19 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

Lends credence to the shooting tape being taken from a drone.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:19 PM on January 29, 2016

Something is going down - yelling - the woman is scared....david yells that he has his flashlight on a drone outside... it's quite tense

I hope they all survive actually
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:19 PM on January 29, 2016

Thanks, cortex.
posted by valkane at 8:20 PM on January 29, 2016

They think the FBI is coming in tonight, they're really jumpy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:21 PM on January 29, 2016

You were in the picture, so I'll take your word for it.
posted by valkane at 8:22 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

They haven't seemed this jumpy since that helicopter came through on Wednesday.
posted by mochapickle at 8:22 PM on January 29, 2016

Woman goes "We need a miracle!" David's phone goes off with a text messsage beep... woman asks "Have you called Mark - see what the eff is going on?"

David states "I have never seen a remote controlled drone like that!"

(I am SO hoping this is an alien abduction)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:22 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

Well, they wouldn't be wrong if there's an unidentified drone and four unidentified trucks.... I think this may be the moment of "give up now" ... I highly doubt they're going to be willing to be killed... and the FBI will give them plenty of opportunity to walk out alive.
posted by RedEmma at 8:23 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

If they start playing that horn music from Red State, I'm gonna freak out.
posted by valkane at 8:24 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

What the hell. David's loading up a bowl?
posted by RedEmma at 8:25 PM on January 29, 2016

Yea, now they're taking up positions and talking about shooting back. Well this could end badly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:25 PM on January 29, 2016

If they start playing Ride of the Valkyries I'll be fucking ecstatic.
posted by Talez at 8:25 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

They state they are loading up "pipes" which I suspect is NOT code for guns...
They are talking about "fire zones " and "cover" ....
Sean verifies that they are ready to "shoot back"
Woman asks "Is that live?"

Unknown assailants outside state "you were warned" according to David
Woman goes "They promised they wouldnt do that"
Sounds of woman sniffling...
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:26 PM on January 29, 2016

This is the future of reality television -looking into a black screen listening to a group of maladjusted individuals expressing paranoia and ranting in the dark.
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:26 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

Sandy keeps sniffling. I can't tell if she's crying or has a cold.
posted by mochapickle at 8:27 PM on January 29, 2016

Something is going down - yelling - the woman is scared… David yells that he has his flashlight on a drone outside… it’s quite tense

“Throw them into darkness for a few hours, and then you just sit back and watch the pattern…”
posted by Going To Maine at 8:27 PM on January 29, 2016

To be fair, I thought she said something about "if they shoot you, they'll shoot me too." and Sean told Sandy that then she should shoot back. I don't think they're going to shoot first.
posted by RedEmma at 8:27 PM on January 29, 2016

Sandy keeps sniffling. I can't tell if she's crying or has a cold.

Devils Dandruff.
posted by valkane at 8:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Like the Republican debates with the video turned off.
posted by Death and Gravity at 8:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Time to give it up kids.
posted by Trochanter at 8:29 PM on January 29, 2016

David's phone goes off for a text message but David is not answering...
Woman sniffling in background a lot (!) ....
Sean tells everyone to grab guns
Someone franticly trying to message david on phone - keeps vibrating - no answer....
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:29 PM on January 29, 2016

I just changed my mind... they might shoot first... Sean says they're going to come in and "grab them close" and so they should have their guns ready... eek...
posted by RedEmma at 8:30 PM on January 29, 2016

They're praying.

Please let them rethink & walk out.
posted by mochapickle at 8:31 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

"They're coming!"
"Let's all get in the tent."

Is that some kinda heater hissing? They'll all succumb to asphyxiation before Mulder and Scully even get there.
posted by valkane at 8:31 PM on January 29, 2016

Have they said anything more about the dogs?
posted by bluecore at 8:31 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

They're praying.
posted by RedEmma at 8:31 PM on January 29, 2016

Sandy keeps sniffling. I can't tell if she's crying or has a cold.

Meth nose.
posted by yertledaturtle at 8:31 PM on January 29, 2016

Drone goes away and david says "I think a little prayer will help"...
they are praying now ... to someone named "Joshua" which I just realized now is Jesus....
They are going to send someone outside to turn on car headlights - they are sending out the woman

Woman states "do not shoot the drone" out of a misguided belief it can/will shoot back
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:32 PM on January 29, 2016

They are reading twitter, I think! Someone on twitter just said not to shoot fed/state property.

THEY ARE COMMUNICATING
posted by mochapickle at 8:32 PM on January 29, 2016

I hope nothing happens.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:33 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Let's hope they all walk out somehow, but if not, I wonder if the conspiracy is ongoing, does Ammo catch additional charges if they get themselves killed in service of his bullshit cause?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:33 PM on January 29, 2016

No, she said don't shoot the drone cause that's another (legal) charge.
posted by valkane at 8:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

These people should not own guns.
posted by valkane at 8:35 PM on January 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

I highly doubt David even knows how to handle one.
posted by RedEmma at 8:35 PM on January 29, 2016

Sounds of gun being cocked... "this thing's froze up"
Woman outside turns on car outside despite being told not to turn it on....
Sounds of Windows 7 being started up (that can't be good) ....
They seem a bit calmer....
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:36 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean called David his "weapons expert."
posted by mochapickle at 8:37 PM on January 29, 2016

Somebody just ate a line.
posted by valkane at 8:38 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean states to wife that he is talking to someone named "Glen" on the phone....
Woman expresses disappointment to Glen on phone that they are not being allowed to stay longer - said they were promised they would be allowed to stay...she expresses concern over dying.... she definitely is crying but quietly ....
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:40 PM on January 29, 2016

So your fantasy of being a forest animal includes packing a gun?

Furry isn't about being a forest animal. I have no idea how old you are, but the idea of the anthropomorphic animal character extends well back in time across the Warner Bros. "Bugs Bunny/Roadrunner Hour" on Saturday mornings into time well before that.

Being a furry isn't about being a forest animal. There's a lot more to it than that. And, as a fandom, it is largely accepting of variances within the concept and is forgiving of those who might have a different expression of what it all might entail.

I am very forgiving and accepting, up to the point where someone is carrying a firearm into a gathering. At that point, I no longer feel safe. Same when I am in a non-furry space.

If there is a gun present, the chances of someone being shot with a gun have suddenly exploded to a much higher level than if there were no guns present.

Period.

So, when I see a gun, whether in a furry space or a non-furry space, I find an opportunity to leave, and I do.

Period.
posted by hippybear at 8:43 PM on January 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

FWIW - by their description this "drone" thing appears to be of the quadracopter type - not like a predator thing.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:43 PM on January 29, 2016

She doesn't sound like she's crying to me.
posted by valkane at 8:43 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean states to person on phone "one vehicle looked like a "troop carrier"

So they definitely are about to be raided the troop carrier thing is probably a SWAT or HomeSec armored personnel vehicle
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:45 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think her sniffling is more about camping for days outside. Years ago, I participated in a winter time blockade in below-zero weather (EarthFirst!), and her sniffling is giving me flashbacks.
posted by RedEmma at 8:45 PM on January 29, 2016

Is it wrong that I’m getting annoyed? Because this is all JUST SO STUPID. I mean, this woman is in terror -and may die- because of some idiot set of confusions that don’t make sense. I feel like I’ve been trained about how to react to the Timothy McVeighs and ISISes of the world. But this is just… it’s frustrating and annoying and people are maybe going to die because they don’t want to leave a park at the end of a fight that’s already over?
posted by Going To Maine at 8:46 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Discussing tactics with someone on the phone, Sandy leaving a message for someone else, says this may be it. Wants to call the lawyer again.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:46 PM on January 29, 2016

They're telling everyone that the FBI promised they wouldn't move in
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:47 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean states they are NOT in a building but outside camping by the cars .... near a campfire
Woman states " We should talk to an attorney" (duhh!)
Sean on phone describing the situation to someone on phone ...
Someone from the outside (on the phone) outside is either supporting and/or advising them to a degree
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:48 PM on January 29, 2016

Whether the fight is over or not depends on the travel time for all those that the "call for action" have set in motion in their cars. That remains to be seen.
posted by hippybear at 8:48 PM on January 29, 2016

FBI might just be winding them up.... which is a dick move, I'll admit.
posted by valkane at 8:49 PM on January 29, 2016

Probably at least a week before we know exactly how many more will or won't show up. The anticipation is painful.
posted by hippybear at 8:49 PM on January 29, 2016

OK, I think I answered my own question... They are camping so they can potentially say, "We aren't in the buildings. We're just camping."
posted by mochapickle at 8:50 PM on January 29, 2016

Don't think do valkane - you don't risk your troops to wind people up. It going to be all too real soon now
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:50 PM on January 29, 2016

It's so strange to me that they would be upset about the FBI maybe not keeping a "promise." Would I be under the illusion that the federal law enforcement agency would be beholden to a word of honor, or would I maybe calculate that they're going to sometimes manipulate me? I think the latter.

n the travel time for all those that the "call for action" have set in motion in their cars

Are you being serious there? I think it's super clear the cavalry isn't coming. I feel like the fact that this hasn't grown larger is kind of all I need to know about the seriousness of the patriot militia movement.
posted by Miko at 8:50 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's only 9pm in Oregon, if there's going to be a raid it'll probably be hours from now. They'll let them sit for a good while after moving agents into position.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

These seem like incredibly naive people. They believed the Bundys. They assumed the "free to go" offer meant that they would not be charged, ever. They think anything said in a negotiation to extract them would hold.
posted by mochapickle at 8:53 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Right... that's what I'm thinking too. Let them stew for a good long while and wait until that initial adrenaline rush is down.
posted by RedEmma at 8:54 PM on January 29, 2016

I don't really see why they'd raid tonight. I think the waiting it out approach is going really well. Why work any harder than that, take any more risks? They fray more by the second.
posted by Miko at 8:56 PM on January 29, 2016

Raid what? Some tents? I think (hope) the feds are playing the New Playbook in which you let them melt down, on their own. Run outta food and go-fast, and they'll walk out.
posted by valkane at 8:56 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean says Glen on phone states this is all "psy-ops" trying to psych them out - this is such sadly bad advice :(

Very LOW audio but Sean confirms that someone helping them has a "contact on the ridge back there"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:56 PM on January 29, 2016

DABOO777 is on the YouTube chat.
posted by mochapickle at 8:58 PM on January 29, 2016

(He's asking DABOO777 if that's their drone.)
posted by mochapickle at 8:58 PM on January 29, 2016

David asks if some internet person named DABU777 was the owner of the drone (presumably he looks for the answer on youtube chat) - so badly misinformed about everything :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:58 PM on January 29, 2016

I don't think any cavalry is coming, but I don't discount a few nuts trying to come in. From a practical point, once the wingnuts started putting out their 'call', it became necessary to get these guys tidied up to reduce the attraction of the place and so it can be properly swept and secured.
posted by tavella at 8:58 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

If he's reading those youtube comments... I mean, half the people there are just trolls saying "sympathetic" things to goad them on.

Oh, lordy.
posted by mochapickle at 9:00 PM on January 29, 2016

It's also a damn big area to secure, this is burning through a shitload of the FBIs operations budget, they're not realistically going to sit out there forever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:01 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Glen on phone states this is all "psy-ops" trying to psych them out - this is such sadly bad advice

I think they concluded it was psy-ops from reading the chatroom. I think they are trying to make decisions or make sense of things based on comments in the youtube chat room.
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:02 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

All those loaded guns. What should happen is Sean accidentally shoots himself in the toe. It hurts. He waits it out for a while, heroically, and then Sandy, concerned for her husband and the amount of blood everywhere from his foot, goes out to flag a medic. They all climb into an ambulance and into custody. Everyone arrives safely for booking. The end.
posted by mochapickle at 9:03 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think they are trying to make decisions or make sense of things based on comments in the youtube chat room.

.... ....I'm afraid you're right.
posted by Miko at 9:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think they are trying to make decisions or make sense of things based on comments in the youtube chat room.

It's like baffled Price Is Right contestants looking back to the audience for suggested bids.
posted by mochapickle at 9:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh, Sean. Hundreds of thousands of people aren't coming to protest you getting arrest. The bubble in which they live...
posted by bluecore at 9:05 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

"hundreds of thousands of people need to show up at the checkpoints...." -- Sean Anderson

The sheer ego of a guy that owns a camp-goods store. Unbelievable.
posted by valkane at 9:07 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sean giving the others a pep talk about taking it to the end, even if that means their deaths. Not good if there is something going down.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:07 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean seems to be acting as the cult leader around which all the others are revolving....
He takes another phone call ...says the 4 vehicles turned "right ... onto a farmer's field"
Sean states to someone on phone that he believes the FBI will take up positions on nearby hill and "take us out"
He also states to person on phone "we need hundreds of thousands of people out here to protest"
Sean talks on phone about the delusion of having huge number of people coming to suppor them .... completely disconnected form his reality

My best guess is the last thing we will hear/see on liveview will be a huge numbers of flashbangs... hopefully they will be extracted with minimal injuries on all sides
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:07 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think they are trying to make decisions or make sense of things based on comments in the youtube chat room.

It’s like baffled Price Is Right contestants looking back to the audience for suggested bids.

Worse, because the average episode of The Price Is Right doesn’t have a 4chan backchannel.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:08 PM on January 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

"How long is the American people gonna put up with this crap? If we woulda stopped them at Ruby Ridge or Waco, we wouldn't be here now. But nobody will take it through the end. They get so far, their lifes are threatened, they get scared, and they quit.We'll never win that way. The four of us have it in our hearts that we're gonna take this to the end, and if if that means your death, then so be it , it has to be that way. We're still holding out for our miracle."
posted by Miko at 9:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Does the fourth guy, Jeff, ever say anything?
posted by mochapickle at 9:09 PM on January 29, 2016

Oh god, they have backed themselves back into the corner: "we can't give up."
posted by RedEmma at 9:09 PM on January 29, 2016

i believe Sean may be using skype rather than a phone - the other person sounds "skypy". Explains windows 7 starting up earlier
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:10 PM on January 29, 2016

The feed just cut out - expected - David's phone has only 4g of memory - usually takes him 5 - 10 mins to reset the feed
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:11 PM on January 29, 2016

Livestream is dead.
posted by RedEmma at 9:11 PM on January 29, 2016

This is incredibly sad and I hope it does not end tragically.
posted by yertledaturtle at 9:12 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

If this turns out to be Season One of a new Fox reality TV show I have no idea if I'll be incredibly angry or relieved.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:15 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

DABOO777 is on the YouTube chat.
posted by mochapickle at 8:58 PM on January 29 [+] [!]

Oh no! I can only imagine what he's got in this. Last I head from him, he was detailing the mysterious Wal-Mart closures in relation to Jade Helm. Which fits in with this group nicely, actually.
posted by gc at 9:16 PM on January 29, 2016

Yeah, if they could just find some Andy Griffith-looking guy to mosey on up in there with his border-collie named Shep, and tell them he had finagled a way for 'em all to walk out alive, only, here, lay down those guns, and you won't have to worry about no sodomy Dave, and we're gonna get your wife to some place safe, Sean, maybe, maybe it might work.

Then you put 'em in the back of a cruiser, take 'em somewhere where they can have a nice shower, get dressed, then you cuff 'em.

That's the dream of civilization I have. I should probably move to Sweden.
posted by valkane at 9:21 PM on January 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

Feed's back.
posted by Miko at 9:24 PM on January 29, 2016

here
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:25 PM on January 29, 2016

Fry's battery died. Maybe T-mobile gave him a data sponsorship.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:26 PM on January 29, 2016

...annnd it's gone again...
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:26 PM on January 29, 2016

Well, before it died out again, Fry said that the drone was gone and that maybe two of the vehicles that drove into the field maybe left? He now seems unsure of how many vehicles there were.
posted by RedEmma at 9:30 PM on January 29, 2016

He's charging his phone on the usb port, probably on the government's PC, you can hear it plug in and out, probably also on a shitty cord that doesn't make contact consistently. He's burning battery faster than the usb can charge it. Man the future is fucked up, people broadcasting to the world don't even know how their phones work.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:30 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Damn it Jim! I'm a terrorist - not a technician!"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:32 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Video stream back up - flashlight goes on and a PROPANE TANK (!) briefly comes into view -screen goes dark audio only - this does not look good
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:35 PM on January 29, 2016

Yeah, I think that tank is feeding their heater.
posted by valkane at 9:36 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Back on for the moment. No one is talking.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:36 PM on January 29, 2016

It's fine. They're just using the propane to light their pipes.
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kind of weirded out by something that happened in one of the live streams. I don't participate in the chat at all, but I glanced over and saw someone post:

"Youve go your nice apartment [my city], [my exact cross streets]"

I'm assuming that's "got" instead of "go." Like I said, I wasn't interacting with anyone or making them angry enough to stalk me. If you're watching a livestream, does your username appear anywhere if you don't chat? Are there bots that can put stuff from your account? Or is this just a really, really odd coincidence?
posted by bluecore at 9:37 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean taking numerous call on phone
His wife states "it doesn't matter if we'll be dead anyway"
Fry tells audience that he thinks chat comments are stupid
Fry talks to "feds listening in on stream" condemning them for not serving their country and asking why "hillary is still running for president"

Sean continues to give sitreps to unknown persons on phone....
Fry becoming frenetic and loudly lecturing audience on phone....

feed cuts out again..
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:40 PM on January 29, 2016

They think the drone was to trick them into firing first, so snipers can fire on them. Fry ranting at the "feds" he knows are watching the live feed. Complete rational breakdown
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:41 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean now talking on phone to o Ammon's lawyer (??) possibly "I heard you did a lot work for Bundy"

Sean says on phone " I gotta stop you right there. You gotta understand something . We're true patriots..." then begins stating his complaints about the possibility of him being arrested. "I believe god is here with a plan and I am waiting for that miracle"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:48 PM on January 29, 2016

You can hear coyotes in the background. Sandy is obsessed with natural signs as signs of hope, and says this is good, meaning there is no one out there watching them.
posted by RedEmma at 9:49 PM on January 29, 2016

Coyotes begin to howl in background (really!) because this apparently is not spooky enough....
Sean hangs up on whomever he was talking to on the phone....says it was a woman... disses her heavily....
Sean states he wants the "governor to pardon us" ....

New voice (Jeff???) starts talking ...sounds stoned... and irrational - in this context though hard to tell....
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:51 PM on January 29, 2016

That's the dream of civilization I have. I should probably move to Sweden.

If you had not been cheated of your birthright by the federal government, you would realize that you are a boat and could simply sail and/or motor to Sweden.

I would, however, not counsel a winter passage of the North Atlantic.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

CONFIRMED! Sean states that NV Assemblywoman Fiore (HUGE wingnut) was on the phone a moment ago - incorrectly identifies her as a Congresswoman.... even Sean hates her
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:53 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this pretty place from Burns to John Day,
To the last gigabyte of streaming video,
And thirty yesterdays have blighted them
To their snowy death. Out out brief newsfeed!
Life is but a mocking side show, a cosplayer
That struts and frets with an AK, upon the refuge,
A tale told by drone footage, narrated by liars,
Soothed by silent forest.
posted by Oyéah at 9:54 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sean: "It's up to the people to save us"

Little heard Jeff: "That's slim" and something about going up to heaven.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:54 PM on January 29, 2016

Well, we're back to sitting around in the dark, listening to stoned people talk their campfire paranoia out while eating snacks loudly.
posted by RedEmma at 9:55 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean says Fiore said that she can do more with him alive than dead.

"Well, that's just her opinion," says the other guy.
posted by sporkwort at 9:55 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

So Michele Fiore talked to them and said "the FBI is lying" ... she is seriously not helping.
posted by phoque at 9:56 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, we're back to sitting around in the dark, listening to stoned people talk their campfire paranoia out while eating snacks loudly.

At least the FBI is wasting their Friday night listening to these idiots too?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:57 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean says of Fiore "If SHE were governor we'd definitely be dead by now" Fiore makes Bachman look sensible. Even terrorists hate her.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:58 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

So Michele Fiore talked to them and said "the FBI is lying" ... she is seriously not helping.

Charge her too after this is resolved.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:58 PM on January 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'd be freaked out, too, bluecore.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:59 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean on phone with Ammon's wife?
posted by mochapickle at 10:03 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think his lawyer was just with her and got him to recorded a message for them to surrender to pass on.
posted by phoque at 10:06 PM on January 29, 2016

Fry is the internet face, but it's Sean talking to the important people on the phone. Lawyer dude, "Glen", Fiore, now Ammo's wife.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:07 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean farts loudly on livefeed ( only wish I was kidding) other militants giggle
Blazing Saddles remake
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:07 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Wait, Ammon's married? *erases gigabites of slash*
posted by hippybear at 10:07 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Married with six kids.
posted by Oyéah at 10:09 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean is calling the shots. The worst thing they can do is to continue listening to him.
posted by yertledaturtle at 10:09 PM on January 29, 2016

He's definitely on the phone with Ammon's wife, who is trying to get them to surrender.
posted by RedEmma at 10:09 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean is balking at being treated like a lesser leader than Ammon... insisting he's "being logical" despite them being "abandoned."
posted by RedEmma at 10:12 PM on January 29, 2016

"I don't want to live in this world, if it's so tyrannical." (Sean)
posted by RedEmma at 10:13 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean insists God is talking to him too. It is apparent that Ammon's wife doesn't remember them, and Sean is indignant.
posted by RedEmma at 10:14 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean: "Do you know who we are? Do you remember us?"
Lisa: "..."
posted by mochapickle at 10:14 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean laments that his son wants to be a federal agent, having been corrupted by the system.
posted by RedEmma at 10:14 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean makes a reference to Ammond's wife to "someone important connected up in headquarters" which makes me wonder who that is ????

Sean restates his desire to die "god put us on this path" - everyone drinks Koolaid

Sean asks Ammonds's wife "Do you remember who we are?" Wife apparently does not (sad) - Sean tells her of his involvement with Ammond. His is a C list player and can not realize it
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:15 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

All this from Ammo's wife and attorney is intended for his jury pool, not these stragglers.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:17 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Coen brothers all the way. If it goes Tarentino it is over for them.
posted by Oyéah at 10:19 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now the lawyer's on speaker.
posted by RedEmma at 10:19 PM on January 29, 2016

He's trying to hook them up with another lawyer.
posted by RedEmma at 10:20 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean gets a name from Ammond's wife - forgets he is online - says the name - Wayne Matheson - who is this guy ??

Ammond's lawyer on line now (!!) (don't drink the wine!) . They put him on speakerphone. He confirms that Wayne Matheson is a lawyer they are recommending to him. Lawyer suggests they let the lawyer handle the negotiation
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:20 PM on January 29, 2016

Ammo's lawyer says FBI tactical people aren't talking to the negotiating people.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:22 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

lawyer spells out name as Wayne mackeson in Portland t
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:23 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is the lawyer: Wayne Mackeson.
posted by RedEmma at 10:24 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

"I was so impressed with you guys for" not fucking shooting at a drone like insane people. Kudos to lawyer on the phone for straight-facing this conversation, I guess.
posted by cortex at 10:24 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

The problem is that both Sean and Sandy are refusing to "work this out in the courts." They are opposed to the Bundys current tactics. They resent having been left behind, and don't really give a shit what Ammon wants.
posted by RedEmma at 10:25 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Recognized in Oregon Super Lawyers"

worst superhero team ever
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:27 PM on January 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

They've figured out that they can turn the phone off of speaker in order to carefully write down the phone number without livestreaming it, after saying the name of the lawyer, who is not Batman, a dozen fucking times already. Chat is currently reiterating the lawyer's contact info. Coen Brothers is right. But I imagine this lawyer on the phone is happy to be off speaker, at least.

Mackeson appears to have "won" at least a couple of Top X awards of his own, so, okay.
posted by cortex at 10:28 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Airdrop in Bob Odenkirk in his Better Call Saul persona and this thing's over like that! {snaps fingers}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:29 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

holy shit. Sean says he never kept any federal workers from doing their jobs because there were never any federal workers there at the same time he was.
posted by sporkwort at 10:29 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Mackeson looks actually above board from his internet presence. Good, get these people some competent counsel.

"Recognized in Oregon Super Lawyers"

Every criminal defense and solo PI attorney is listed in these things, it's marketing BS. Criminals and unsophisticated clients generally don't know the difference between paid ads and actual professional awards. $125/yr to be a "Super Lawyer" is worth it if it gets you one paying client.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:30 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well all know those Top Lawyer awards are things you pay for like "Who's Who" , right?
Only B level players and below would list such a thing. And maybe Saul - but he has reasons.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:31 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

He's trying to hook them up with another lawyer.

Ambulance chaser.
posted by Trochanter at 10:31 PM on January 29, 2016

This is turning into the Avengers of "Top-{X] Attorneys in the Universe" members.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:32 PM on January 29, 2016

Well, I think the thing is Arnold the lawyer can't represent the Bundys and these guys, or doesn't want to.
posted by RedEmma at 10:33 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

"We were questioning our faith and then a bald eagle flew over us..."
posted by bluecore at 10:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Blood moon and bald eagles, signs from the Lord.
posted by cortex at 10:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean is marveling that there was a bald eagle. At a bird refuge. And how that is a sure sign from god.
posted by mochapickle at 10:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [14 favorites]

Sean mentions that Eagles they saw inspired them then goes on to talk about blood red moons and very weird shit which he claims are all miracle signs.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:34 PM on January 29, 2016

He cannot represent both Red Emma - conflict of interest apparently - in case he has to get Ammond to sell out everyone for a plea deal - not that that would ever happen
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:35 PM on January 29, 2016

Don't knock the dude for his advertising, there's a decent chance the FBI/and or Ammo's attorney set that whole sequence in motion to induce a stand down. Criminal defense and PI is really local reputation based, and everyone has to play the marketing game. Maybe that dude is a great defense attorney, and they're trying really hard to get them to take his advice.

I kinda doubt they'll take it, but there's a lot of worse ways this could end.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:36 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow - these are some convoluted rationalizations for avoiding an arrest for a warrant.
posted by yertledaturtle at 10:37 PM on January 29, 2016

OK I have to give this lawyer credit - he asks them if they can be on "Good Morning America" monday morning - which is a SUPER nice play. But it doesn't work - eveyone gets angry about that one.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:41 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Whoever is on the phone is offering them an interview on Good Morning America(???). The four ask if they could pick the network.
posted by mochapickle at 10:41 PM on January 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Sandy, would you be willing to go on Good Morning America, Monday morning?" Pitching the idea of keeping the fight going not by refusing to leave but by leaving and going in front of the mainstream media, who Sean was just lamenting wasn't covering the story.
posted by cortex at 10:41 PM on January 29, 2016

I can't help but feel all this would've been avoided if they just read the Constitution all the way to the end and got to Article IV where they go over Federal land use.
posted by bluecore at 10:42 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

I believe that Sean Anderson also has a warrant for his arrest in Wisconsin. So, he has more than one warrant for his arrest.

[Anderson] has an outstanding bench warrant related to an August 2014 arrest. Anderson was charged with resisting an officer, possession of THC and possession of drug paraphernalia, all misdemeanors.

posted by yertledaturtle at 10:43 PM on January 29, 2016

They diss Fiore again LOLS !
Make reference to a "Congressperson from Utah" but don;t know name or gender
Lawyer now asks them to come out and make their case to the media ... everyone gets mad again. Lawyer is a bonehead. Jeff blows him off
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:44 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sandy wants Good Morning America to come there.

Fry asks how could the President negotiate with terrorists in a cynical tone, like Obama is calling all the shots personally.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:44 PM on January 29, 2016

LAWYER: "Can I speaker in [Wayne]?"
SEAN: "What do you mean, sneak in?"
posted by cortex at 10:45 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

They hang up on Wayne who was brought into the discussion - I am uncertain whether this is a good or bad decision
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:47 PM on January 29, 2016

Sean and Sandy have decided they don't trust the lawyer Arnold is sending them, because he won't promise to get them amnesty. *sigh*
posted by RedEmma at 10:48 PM on January 29, 2016

It is the Good Morning America shell game, hopefully it will go down in history as having worked for everyone involved.

I have a soft spot for the married couple and even to a certain extent, the spoiled, ex dental assistant...
posted by Oyéah at 10:50 PM on January 29, 2016

If David and Jeff could only get away from Sean and Sandy, they'd be better off. Sean and Sandy are the ones being bullheaded at this point, with David and Jeff in supporting roles.
posted by RedEmma at 10:50 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm going to give Wayne the benefit of the doubt here, Ammo et al have a huge incentive to see this resolved now that they're definitely not getting bail until it is, and have potential ongoing liability if these idiots end up getting themselves killed. All incentives on both the FBI and the leaders in custody are aligned to end this peacefully, they're probably even working together at the moment. I think everyone is trying to get them to listen to Wayne, a neutral party, and take a deal to walk away.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

We are all agreed that this either the Best or Worst Reality Show Ever, right?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:52 PM on January 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sean and Sandy are the couple? Bummer.
posted by Oyéah at 10:53 PM on January 29, 2016

You know I have always seriously wondered if wingnuts really believed the crap that they spouted or whether it was all just a kind of tongue in cheek thing to piss people like me off. And now here I am listening to 4 such people who's lives are very literally hanging on a slim thread because of exactly those beliefs - which they refuse to budge from even at peril of death - and I am by turns fascinated, stunned and enlightened.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:56 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

[thanks to those of you liveblogging this! I can't watch the stream this evening, and the updates are appreciated.]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:59 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Mouth open and mind, outta gear."
Okie saying
posted by Oyéah at 11:02 PM on January 29, 2016

[the feed's been down for some minutes now...]
posted by RedEmma at 11:06 PM on January 29, 2016

I don't think the lawyer knew he was on speaker when he was passed to David and immediately launched into his divide and conquer strategy which obviously didn't work with the two people being excluded listening. That is where things really fell apart. Basically the lawyer was there to sell his plan and heroically close the deal. What FBI negotiators are trained to do is actively listen. You can only influence them once they don't feel pressured or threatened and feel their position makes sense to both themselves and the other person.

There are five steps:
-Active Listening: Listen to their side and make them aware you’re listening.
-Empathy: You get an understanding of where they’re coming from and how they feel.
-Rapport: Empathy is what you feel. Rapport is when they feel it back. They start to trust you.
-Influence: Now that they trust you, you’ve earned the right to work on problem solving with them and recommend a course of action.
-Behavioral Change: They act. (And maybe come out with their hands up.)

bit more
Crisis Intervention: Using Active Listening Skills in Negotiations (FBI link)
posted by phoque at 11:08 PM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

In Season two I hear Jeff and Dave hook up !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:08 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's Real Militiamen of Grant County, right?
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:12 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yea, this negotiating through 3rd parties is weird, but probably necessary if they've stopped responding to the FBI guys. It's certainly not ideal, and if the FBI is behind these successive overtures, it's not good, that means they feel they're running out of lines of communication and opportunities to end this without a confrontation.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:12 PM on January 29, 2016

Congress person from Utah, I wondered if R. Bundy and Finicum, met with Mike Lee, or Chaffeltz, when they drove over to Cedar City, Utah; maybe just a state rep. There was a reason for that long drive.
posted by Oyéah at 11:13 PM on January 29, 2016

I don't think it's the FBI behind the overtures. It's Ammon Bundy's lawyer having a shit fit realizing if there are any deaths at the refuge, particularly of Federal agents in a conspiracy started by his client, Ammon could get the book thrown at him. Well, more so than now.
posted by bluecore at 11:17 PM on January 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Binge-watching YouTube social media militants has completely replaced my Netflix this entire week. Considering canceling my Amazon Prime if this keep up.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:17 PM on January 29, 2016 [12 favorites]

Execute a NWBE, needs, wants, beliefs, and emotions. That is how you persuade groups/communities to buy in to projects that will improve their lives.
posted by Oyéah at 11:18 PM on January 29, 2016

I've gotta admit that I have a soft spot for David.

Do not go down this dark path! This leads...to SLASHFIC.
posted by happyroach at 11:19 PM on January 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Jeff and Dave hookah up? Brokeback Marshland?
posted by Oyéah at 11:20 PM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

A Book of Verses under the Tarp,
A 50 Gallon Drum of Lube, an FBI Drone—and Thou
Beside me livestreaming in the Wilderness—
O, Wilderness were Paradise enow!
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:30 PM on January 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

It's Back
"Hey Cortex! Your show's on!"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:34 PM on January 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

A Short History of the Internet :

1993 : Cambridge University uses worlds first webcam to stream 24x7 video of a coffee pot . World is riveted

2016 : David Fry livestreams video of Coleman Lantern for three hours from his cell phone. World again riveted.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:42 PM on January 29, 2016 [15 favorites]

IN case anyone is wondering for the past 10 minutes they have been trying to ignite their heater - loud sounds of a piezo ignition switch .... this could all end early.
OK now they made coffee! They seem pretty pleased about that . Jeff says "Pretty good coffee!" I think he's secretly flirting with Dave
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:49 PM on January 29, 2016

Are they all in a tent?
posted by Oyéah at 11:55 PM on January 29, 2016

Hard to say.... only a pic of this lantern thingie..... can't see much else.... It's going to be COLD this evening in burns so they can't stay in the open.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:57 PM on January 29, 2016

Carbon Monoxide danger, I hope the tactical team brought Oxygen for four.
posted by Oyéah at 12:04 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

more milk from the lulz cows.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:33 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's Ammon Bundy's lawyer having a shit fit realizing if there are any deaths at the refuge, particularly of Federal agents in a conspiracy started by his client, Ammon could get the book thrown at him.

Yep, Ammon is really sweating now. If an agent is killed, Ammon and others could be charged as either co-conspirators or accomplices to murder even if they are miles away. Ammon set the wheels in motion. He did not turn away these four nuts when he had the opportunity, but welcomed them in, despite his protestations now.
posted by JackFlash at 12:34 AM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Here is the link to the Missoula Independent article interviewing Ryan Payne not long after the Cliven Bundy standoff in 2014. This is the article referenced in the motion to deny bail.

He makes clear that they saw the Cliven Bundy confrontation as a great victory. And then a couple months later the Recapture Canyon standoff as another great victory. I'm sure they expected this Oregon standoff to go the same.

From the article:

"More specifically, he came to believe that slavery never really existed in the United States and that African Americans in the antebellum South "didn't view themselves as slaves." He came to believe in "an effort by some Jews to control the world." He came to believe the founders of the United States intended for the states to act as sovereign countries. He came to believe taxes are a form of "legal plunder." He came to believe names are spelled in all-caps on driver's licenses because U.S. citizens are actually "corporate entities." He came to believe U.S. courts are actually foreign admiralty courts. He came to believe that "in most states you have the lawful authority to kill a police officer that is unlawfully trying to arrest you." He came to believe when a newborn child's footprint is made on a birth certificate, that child is effectively entering a life of servitude to the U.S. government, which borrows money from China based on that child's estimated lifetime earning potential."

The whole thing is worth a read to understand the evolution of Ryan Payne from 17-year-old enlistee to militant leader. He implies that the Bundys, while part of the sovereignty movement were not gun nut militants. It was Ryan Payne and his compatriots who brought the military muscle to the movement, which the Bundys welcomed.
posted by JackFlash at 12:55 AM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

I love that they took seeing a beautiful bird as a sign from god...it's...a...bird...sanctuary...
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 AM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

The whole conspiracy thing is a real fucked up version of Pascal's Wager but about federalism instead of god.
posted by Talez at 6:42 AM on January 30, 2016

Upthread I made a joke about pre-ordering Werner Herzog's documentary about all this. I no longer think that is all that much of a joke. It's a hilarious coda to the whole fiasco that years from now it is Fry's livestream videos which are going to be remembered far more than the stupid causes championed by Ammon and Friends.

And this final chapter really has Herzog's name written all over it. This handful of people are abandoned by their leaders, their whole world-view is shattered, they are beset by monsters they do not understand, they think they are going to die and they react by getting high and spinning crazy theories and looking for signs from God. It's as if Blair Witch Project, Cloverfield, the Truman Show, and every zombie movie ever made were thrown in a blender and broadcast live.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:13 AM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

I love that they took seeing a beautiful bird as a sign from god...it's...a...bird...sanctuary...

This is for the birds, now GTFO, signed, God.
posted by marienbad at 7:27 AM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Attorneys, Bundys Release New Videos Pleading With Occupiers To Surrender

“This was never meant to be an armed standoff,” Ammon Bundy said in the newly released video. “Please do not make it about something it wasn’t supposed to be."

Um, what?
posted by zakur at 7:29 AM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

winner winner purdue dinner
posted by pyramid termite at 7:30 AM on January 30, 2016

Of course he's going to say that with his lawyer, now, because saying anything else is only going to dig the hole deeper. This is in no way surprising.
posted by Archelaus at 7:30 AM on January 30, 2016

It is only surprising in that is completely contrary to observed facts and reality.
posted by zakur at 7:40 AM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, sure, but his whole defense (and, in fact, literally every motivation they've mentioned so far) has been contrary to observed facts and reality, so far. Why should this statement be any different?
posted by Archelaus at 7:44 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait, if the eagles are there, couldn't they have just flown the hobbits Bundys to Mordor D.C. to cast the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom restore the freedom of free men to use the land freely in the name of Freedom.
posted by logicpunk at 8:05 AM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

This is just sad.

No state is going to give you power just because you're white and wear a big hat. If you're going to initiate a revolution, then you have to act like revolutionaries. Leaders have to be better at tactics and strategy than the existing state. They have act with an awareness of their political and historical context. They to take smart risks, win most of their bets, and be willing to take the consequences when they lose their bets. Everyone has to be disciplined and committed because they're up against an opponent with more power, resources, and a longer term outlook than revolutionaries can afford. If there's anything governments are good at, it's holding on to power. The governments that aren't don't exist anymore.

What were the guns for? I never saw Bundy without some bozo bodyguards but I don't get why he needed them. I have to guess that the bodyguards were about ego more than practicality. The armed camp stuff just meant that they forced to the government to pay attention to them. One of the basic functions of government is maintaining order, one component of which is putting down armed insurrections. Governments have been doing that since pre-history; They're pretty good at it by now.

If you're going to quote Fred Hampton, reference Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr., then you might want to learn from history no matter how brain dead your cause.
posted by rdr at 8:05 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Latest: Occupier says he’s ‘waiting for our miracle’

Sean Anderson, who is from Riggins, Idaho, goes on to say that he and the other occupiers are heroes. “Think about the Bible and all the heroes came from the bottom. We were just four drunks, we don’t have any military experience, and now we’re the shining stars,” he said.

posted by zakur at 8:06 AM on January 30, 2016

all the chumps come from the bottom, too

it's obvious to me that these guys expected the sagebrush to erupt with common citizens who've been waiting for a spark to ignite them into overthrowing their government

hell, you can't even get your radiator fixed in winnemucca during rodeo week

people don't like the government but they're not going to turn their lives upside down to do something about it - even the bundys don't want to pay that much

no, they asked the people to fix the government and the people handed them a rubber hammer and some barsleak and said, do it yourself, it's rodeo week

and every week is rodeo week
posted by pyramid termite at 8:18 AM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Wait, if the eagles are there, couldn't they have just flown the hobbits Bundys to Mordor D.C. to cast the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom restore the freedom of free men to use the land freely in the name of Freedom.

A liberal muslim homosexual FBI BLM lawyer and abortion doctor was making his appeal for the illegal imprisonment of the Hammonds using the words of Ed Begley Jr, known celebrity conservationist.

”Before the sentence begins, you must get on your knees and worship conservationism and accept that it is the most highly-evolved philosophy the world has ever known, even greater than Christianity!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, pro-life rancher who had not paid his taxes and understood the necessity of the Constitution and fully supported all military decision made by the Oathkeepers occupied a wildlife reserve and held up his heavily annotaed pocket copy of the constitution.

”How many amendments, pinhead?”

The arrogant lawyer smirked quite Jewishly and smugly replied “27, you stupid Christian”

”Wrong. It’s been 228 years since God created it. If it was made by God there was only 10.”

The lawyer was visibly shaken, and dropped his gold trimmed flag . He stormed out of the room crying those liberal crocodile tears. The same tears liberals cry for the “poor” (who today live in such luxury that most own refrigerators) when they jealously get the government try to keep unlawfully acquired grazing land from the deserving job creator ranchers. There is no doubt that at this point our lawyer, DeShawn Washington, wished he had pulled himself up by his bootstraps and become more than a sophist liberal lawyer. He wished so much that he had a gun to shoot himself from embarrassment, but he himself had petitioned against them!

The students applauded and all registered Republican that day and accepted Jesus as their lord and savior. An eagle named “Sovereign Citizen” flew into the room and perched atop the American Flag and shed a tear on Article III of the Constitution. The pledge of allegiance was read several times, and God himself showed up and made county sheriffs the highest executives across the country.

The lawyer lost the case and the Hammonds were released the next day. He died of the gay plague AIDS and was tossed into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Semper Fi.
posted by Talez at 8:19 AM on January 30, 2016 [18 favorites]

these guys expected the sagebrush to erupt with common citizens who've been waiting for a spark to ignite them into overthrowing their government

HEALTER SKELTER
 
posted by Herodios at 8:35 AM on January 30, 2016

You may be a lover, but you ain't no dancer.
posted by Oyéah at 8:39 AM on January 30, 2016

You may be a lover, but you ain't no dancer.

Nope.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:47 AM on January 30, 2016

It's no fun when you have to | explain it.
posted by Herodios at 8:56 AM on January 30, 2016

We got it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:03 AM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

the walrus was ammon
posted by pyramid termite at 9:15 AM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Major Tom's a junkie.
posted by Artw at 9:24 AM on January 30, 2016

Hotel California is not a real hotel, but a metaphor for California.
posted by Miko at 9:26 AM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

HEALTER SKELTER

This is a song that U2 stole from Charles Manson who stole it from the Beatles so we're stealing it back?
posted by Talez at 9:30 AM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

The hole to the underground city was actually in the high desert.
posted by Artw at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2016

"Never Gonna Give You Up" was meant as a metaphor for bad running jokes that will never, ever go away.
posted by idiopath at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

"The Beatles" is a pun on beetles and beats.
posted by Rumple at 9:37 AM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

was timothy a man or a mule?
posted by pyramid termite at 9:38 AM on January 30, 2016

Any updates?

Are the law enforcement people now going to be an ongoing presence out there? Is there some sort of perimeter set up?
posted by Trochanter at 9:47 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

The containment robots are still in place.
posted by Floydd at 9:55 AM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

My impression from last night is that the Feds did a bit of a recon mission involving a drone and a visit to a protected place behind a hill from where the group is camping. They then left. Another reason for doing what they did is to make the group continue to feel stressed/unable to sleep. The more tired they become, perhaps the more likely they will be to leave?

The Feds are manning their roadblocks and continuing to bank on pressure from Ammon to break these guys. Based on the way the holdouts are talking, this isn't going well, because the Andersons have decided for some inexplicable reason that dying is better than dealing with the warrants Sean has previously had out for his arrest. They have somehow managed to gather the two others to be their disciples in this matter.
posted by RedEmma at 9:58 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Another option is that they didn't bank on the behavior the Andersons and others exhibited when the drone and the police showed up. In a typical protest situation, the group would be ready to give up at that point, despite feeling stressed. Instead, these guys got all GET READY TO SHOOT, and so they backed off, giving the negotiations another chance to work.
posted by RedEmma at 10:01 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

No state is going to give you power just because you're white and wear a big hat.

Well... just how big a hat are we talking?
posted by jason_steakums at 10:03 AM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Basically, I don't know how they're going to break the blind alley spell these guys are under. Probably someone they perceive as friendly but who is neutral should visit them. Phone negotiations are not working.
posted by RedEmma at 10:05 AM on January 30, 2016

I suppose the major problem there is the potential for a hostage situation.
posted by RedEmma at 10:07 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think I have finally figured it out.
This is not the last stages of a failed occupation but rather a real life Wizard of Oz reenactment with Dave so obviously playing Dorothy. Jeff, waxing philosophical when stoned, is the Scarecrow looking for a brain, . Sean, the Cowardly Lion ( no explanation needed there I think) which leaves Sandy as the Tin Man looking for a heart.

The are all on a journey to find a savior after they have saved the land from the Wicked Witch of D.C., Maybe that savior will come in the form in the form of Navy Seals parachuting about or perhaps just Ammon Bundy granting all their hidden wishes. I like to think they'll find that wizard and get to spend perhaps 15 to 20 years in his company.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:10 AM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was wondering if LEO would move in close enough that they would always be in sight from now on, or some such.
posted by Trochanter at 10:10 AM on January 30, 2016

They might be getting to that point, but the way the group reacted last night perhaps made that idea too dangerous?

The main aim probably right now should be to separate Dave and Jeff from the other two. Wait for an opportunity. The Andersons are openly suicidal, though they claim they won't shoot themselves. Dave on the other hand has declared he might shoot himself, but sometimes seems to be ready to give up. Jeff rarely says much, so I don't have a bead on his attitude.
posted by RedEmma at 10:14 AM on January 30, 2016

They might still have officers/Feds on the other side of that hill—a small contingent. But I can't imagine they'd think that sustainable until they're ready to go.
posted by RedEmma at 10:16 AM on January 30, 2016

They're so willing to believe a miracle and reinforcements are coming, send in a bunch of LEOs undercover as militia and have them "sneak in" through the blockade - "we would have been here days ago, but we had to lay low and tread careful to avoid feds and drones on the way in". FBI gives an embarrassed presser confirming these guys snuck past them. Take these idiots into custody the first time they fall asleep.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:17 AM on January 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

After listening to them react to Ammon's wife and the lawyers on the phone last night, I'm not sure they're capable of trusting anyone at this point, and seemed to turn on them quickly.

I'd be scared, even if I actually WAS a militia dude, that they'd shoot me out of sheer paranoia. I mean, this whole group has been obsessed with infiltrators from the beginning, accusing anyone and everyone of their number of being undercover.
posted by RedEmma at 10:21 AM on January 30, 2016

>Jeff rarely says much, so I don't have a bead on his attitude.

Jeff is the one with the really big bag o weed. Jeff is a Stoner. He doesn't say much but there's a river running in there somewhere probably fairly deep too. You can lure him away with a 20 gram bag tied to a string. Just offer him him a fattie as you're cuffing him and things will be nice and mellow.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:23 AM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

The couple are now surrogate parents. Now they are talking pop tarts and reliving childhood and familial intimacy. I don't know how the American people can get them safely off this plateau. It is better if they can off with more epiphanies about the holiness of the place, how they have found sanctuary and are ready to rebuild their lives by surrendering themselves, and their admittedly selfish claims to such a place of life, set aside by the wishes of the American people. They now recognise the difference between a wildlife refuge and a feedlot, and they are sorry.

Right here is your safe exit script. Come out in pants, t-shirts, apologies, hands up, and for your own sakes, not even one teeny tiny gun. Do this for the love of life, for each other, for your country. If you want to see it in biblical terms, Jesus has already thrown the moneylenders out of this particular temple. Save yourselves.
posted by Oyéah at 10:25 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

They should just send in some Navy Seal paratroopers, have the Seals pretend to humor them and be on their side for a day or so, then the Seals can arrest them.

Or on preview what Jason said.
posted by localhuman at 10:39 AM on January 30, 2016

Jeff is a Stoner. He doesn't say much but there's a river running in there somewhere probably fairly deep too. You can lure him away with a 20 gram bag tied to a string. Just offer him him a fattie as you're cuffing him and things will be nice and mellow.

I wonder if the locals regret this. A nice dispensary down the road might have made a good lure.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:56 AM on January 30, 2016

I'm fascinated by the decision to continue to let David Fry broadcast. It sure provided good entertainment for Metafilter last night. I assume they're letting it run because it provides useful intel on what's happening inside. Maybe with a touch that it's mostly harmless, because anyone watching it realizes what sad wingnuts the folks left there are?
posted by Nelson at 10:57 AM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

> I'm fascinated by the decision to continue to let David Fry broadcast

I wonder if there's a way to stop him, legally and on short notice.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:00 AM on January 30, 2016

Any way to use moon law against them? Like, accidentally let slip that when they surrender, to make sure they're wearing clothes, because clothes are what make a person and a naked person can't be charged with anything until they put clothes on?

More seriously, I don't know why the FBI can't just lie to them. Sure, whatever. We won't arrest you, as long as you all 4 come out together. Obama called and said let you go. Come on out.
posted by ctmf at 11:03 AM on January 30, 2016

why? because the next group of moon miltia won't believe any offers the gov't gives them
posted by pyramid termite at 11:04 AM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yes, if anything, allowing them to broadcast is both adding to the evidence and eroding any support they still enjoyed. It stands some chance of also doing damage to the wider movement - hence the "false flag" cries. It seems like an absolutely great idea to let them broadcast, even if they had the power to stop it.
posted by Miko at 11:04 AM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wonder if there's a way to stop him, legally and on short notice.

I suspect the FBI has the authority to order the phone company to suspend his service or, for that matter, to jam the signal themselves.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 11:05 AM on January 30, 2016

because the next group of moon miltia won't believe any offers the gov't gives them

Fair point. On the other hand, it might encourage the moon militia to hire and listen to an earth lawyer up front next time.
posted by ctmf at 11:07 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can someone explain to me what the phrase "moon law" means? I get from context that perhaps it means made-up, loony law theory, but I'm not clear and Google isn't immediately helpful.
posted by Miko at 11:18 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

you're exactly correct "moon" as in "loony" . People used to actually believe that the full moon could drive you mad hence "looney" from "luna"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:21 AM on January 30, 2016

I knew that about "loony" of course, but had never encountered the term "moon law." Thanks.
posted by Miko at 11:22 AM on January 30, 2016

People used to actually believe that the full moon could drive you mad

Curiously, the hypothesis that the phase of the moon can affect human behavior appears to be at least something of an open question still.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 11:25 AM on January 30, 2016

That's what I understand it to mean. It's also funny to imagine you're giving them the benefit of the doubt that their legal theory could be true somewhere, just not in this jurisdiction. And probably not this planet.
posted by ctmf at 11:26 AM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Miko: Can someone explain to me what the phrase "moon law" means? I get from context that perhaps it means made-up, loony law theory, but I'm not clear and Google isn't immediately helpful.

You've got it. Here's a good primer on the sovereign citizen movement, which is their mix of misinterpretation of the Constitution + conspiracy theories. Typically they're "paper terrorists" that file a lot of lawsuits or liens that they use to attack their targets and clog up the courts, but in this case the refuge takeover was a mix of sovereign citizen believers + potentially violent militia members to back them up.
posted by bluecore at 11:27 AM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'd be surprised if it wasn't influenced by moonbat.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:27 AM on January 30, 2016

Well progressives were commonly called "moonbats" during Bush era - popularized term by Limbaugh I believe. I think we just co-opted that term and used it back.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:40 AM on January 30, 2016

M-O-O-N, that spells constitution.
posted by chimaera at 11:45 AM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

"I can't read your crazy moon language!"
posted by vibrotronica at 11:54 AM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

From the Daily Fail: Oregon militiaman in armed standoff with FBI is an 'abusive' radical with a string of drug and alcohol convictions
_{Bonus: Photo of Satanic beagle who probably started this whole thing}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:01 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wanna try practicing moon law pro se? (redundant, I know.) Just Google "Sovereign Filing Solutions" for all the manuals, forms and videos you need! You can even purchase an "Attorney-In-Fact" ID, Sovereign Connection Press Card, and an "Unnumbered American ID" (anti-Social Security card).
posted by zakur at 12:18 PM on January 30, 2016

That beagle was whispering moon law into my ear just looking at the picture...
posted by Windopaene at 12:27 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I can be moon press! Neat!
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:27 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Question for the legal eagles here...If the Bundy lawyers go down the usual Sovereign path and start submitting piles and piles of SovCit gibberish and double-speak, is the judge compelled to actually take the time to read it all? Or can the judge simply toss it all out without reading past the first page?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:31 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

65 bucks for a self-declared press card??

well, some of these sovcit guys aren't as stupid as you think
posted by pyramid termite at 12:31 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

On Wednesday, in the early hours, he posted on Facebook what appeared to be a reference to losing his cellphone service: "My last words ..... Woop woop."

Does the Daily Mail think Juggalos run our cell networks or something? I don't get this.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:35 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Please note for this package you must already be a member of the Sovereign Connection ( www.sovereignconnection.com/SC/) which is $59.99 a year."
posted by ctmf at 12:35 PM on January 30, 2016

Free Yourselves!!!.

From the Sov Cit Primer: "Truth Language - All sentences must start with the preposition "For," have a minimum of 13 words, and must use more nouns than verbs. Punctuation rules are just as complex."

Ok, mefites, let's see some 13 word Moon Law sentences.... and go!
posted by marienbad at 12:38 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

And what the hell is this? Man, I am down a rabbit hole here, I need oxygen, or drugs.
posted by marienbad at 12:40 PM on January 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

"Please note for this package you must already be a member of the Sovereign Connection which is $59.99 a year."

Seems like as good a time as any to link to Rick Perlstein's fantastic piece on conservative grift: The Long Con: Mail-order conservatism.
posted by dialetheia at 12:41 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh man, from that moon press link: "Keep in mind: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.”"

The fucking irony!
posted by marienbad at 12:42 PM on January 30, 2016

for flowers-earth-eye present, birds-air-call, turtle-voice-claimant the land
posted by pyramid termite at 12:53 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sovereign Citizens and Law Enforcement (an SPLC video for law enforcement officers.)

marienbad, ":David-Wynn: Miller" is listed on the SPLC's page of Sovereign leaders.

Needless to say, Full Colon Miller's clients have fared poorly in both civil and criminal courts, and at least one client has been required to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. Miller is one of the few sovereign gurus that can say he has clients in four different countries currently serving prison sentences. Despite these failures, Miller's exotic punctuation scheme is rapidly growing.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:53 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Another Fry video is up. They found a dog (or vis versa.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:01 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

The dog, you will notice, wants nothing to do with them. In the video they say they called they owner and the owner asked them to let it go so the dog can run back home. They refused. I'm guessing that snacks are probably running low ...
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:05 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

As darkness fell on Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, four militants huddled together in the cold. The night chill was pierced by the distant sound of an eagle crying for freedom. It sounded like a congested raptor scream mixed with the pitter-patter of eagle tears.

“That’s a sign,” said Sean. “God supports our cause. Even though this is a wildlife refuge and birds are here all the time, that was a sign from God intended just for us.”

“I think that came from the direction of the FBI,” said Sandy. “Couldn’t it be a sign for the Feds? It was a pretty loud eagle. I think they would have heard it.”

“Sorry,” said David Fry. “That was my ringtone. It only sounds far away because my phone is realllllly shitty, and my ringtones take forever to buffer.”

Jeff was quiet and ashamed. He had never been friends with someone whose phone had to buffer its own ringtones. He wondered if maybe he hadn’t made a bad decision somewhere along the way.

A drone buzzed overhead, and everyone got suuuuuuper fucked up.

The sky cleared, and the Milky Way was visible.

“Oh my God, it’s gorgeous,” said Sandy.

“That’s a sign; it’s a sign just for us,” said Sean.

Sandy was skeptical. “Honey, it’s the whole sky. How could it be a sign for us? Isn’t the FBI seeing the same thing right now? Couldn’t it be a sign for the FBI instead?”

“No,” said Sean. “The FBI uses a different sky with different constellations. We have American constellations like Orion and the Big Bopper. They use New World Order constellations from the Southern Hemisphere. Like, one of their constellations is a microscope. It’s super fucked up. If you look at the Proctor & Gamble logo, the number 666 is hiding in the moon’s beard.”

Jeff wasn’t sure what Proctor & Gamble had to do with anything.

“I have the moon on my phone,” said David Fry, and he showed them all his phone. He explained that the phone’s wallpaper was supposed be the moon rising over an American flag. “But you can’t see the moon because it’s buffering.”

Jeff became despondent. He had never been friends with someone whose phone had to buffer its own wallpaper.

It was quiet again. Then there was a rumbling noise.

“We got vehicles approaching,” said Sandy. “Incoming Feds.”

All of a sudden: A BLINDING FLASH OF LIGHT!

“Oh shit!” yelled Sean. “Tac nukes! Defcon Waco, get some, get some!”

Sean jumped and rolled for his gun but he missed it. He was too fucked up to find his gun, so he just kept rolling back and forth. He imagined his obituary: “The world’s greatest hero was murdered by the federal government while rolling around with his hands above his head.”

But it wasn’t a tactical nuclear strike. It was just floodlights. They were surrounded. Giant gold-fringed flags waved above armored personnel carriers.

“Oh no,” said Sandy. “It’s the Navy!”

The hatch on one of the armored personnel carriers opened up. The most senior admiralty of the entire United States Corporation Navy emerged.

It was famous international seafarer Captain Crunch.

“Rebel scum,” said Captain Crunch. “Did you really thing you could defeat RJR Nabisco Siemens Mitsubishi BASF Proctor & Gamble BLM United States Inc?”

“The whole world is watching!” said David Fry. “To an extent! The live stream needs to buffer so I can receive the incoming chat stream.”

Jeff wished he was invisible. He had never been friends with someone whose phone had to buffer an incoming stream of dildo jokes and tarp puns.

Captain Crunch threw four brand-new drivers license at David’s feet. David looked at the drivers licenses in horror. The militants’ names were printed in all-caps letters. That meant they were no longer sovereign individuals. They were —

“Muahahaha! You are now corporations!” yelled Captain Crunch. “Now you will have to file lots of boring paperwork! Instead of doing army cosplay, you will have to do office cosplay!”

“You expect me to do office cosplay?” asked David.

“No, Mr. Fry,” said Captain Crunch, twirling his mustache. “I expect you to die.”

Captain Crunch whipped out a giant harpoon gun and aimed it at the militants. He pulled the trigger and shot high-gauge breakfast cereal at the freedom heroes.

But the darkest hour comes just before the dawn. Out of nowhere, Morpheus showed up. He slowed down time and unleashed a wicked kick flip that knocked Captain Crunch’s hat right off his head and onto Jeff’s.

It was at that moment that Jeff realized he had made all the right choices. Vested with the power of Captain Crunch’s hat, HE was now in charge of the United States Corporation Navy. Also, because time was still slowed down, everyone was easily able to dodge the cereal using sick karate moves.

“Jeff! You are the chosen one!” said Morpheus.

“Awesome!” said Jeff.

Morpheus drove off on his moped.

Sandy did a reverse backflip kick and deflected a piece of Captain Crunch’s cereal into the sky, where it shot the moon, causing it to bleed the good kind of American flags without any fringes.

“So that’s where they were hiding them!” said Sean.

“David!” said Jeff. “Morpheus telecommunicated his thoughts to me! The armored personnel carrier has a weakness!”

“What? What?” asked David.

“Many militia leaders died to bring Morpheus the plans for that armored personnel carrier! There’s a hole about a meter across — it leads directly to the legal paperwork that formally incorporated RJR Nabisco Siemens Mitsubishi BASF Proctor & Gamble BLM United States Inc!”

“I used to bulls-eye womp rats in my mom’s station wagon in Ohio back home!” said David. “They’re no bigger than a meter across!”

“Yes, exactly!” said Jeff. “So you understand what a meter is!”

“It’s roughly a yard!” said David. “Can we just call it a yard!”

“Yes!” said Jeff. Then he adjusted his Captain Crunch hat and used its maritime authority against the aggressors. “Citizen Crunch, stand down! United States Corporation Navy, stand down!”

They had no choice. They stood down. David ran up to the hole in the armored personnel carrier and put his phone in it.

Everyone stood around and waited for the livestream to refresh.

Thirty minutes later, smoke started to come out of the hole. It smelled like cordite. The livestream had overheated his shitty World War II-era phone, lighting the incorporation papers on fire and destroying them!

RJR Nabisco Siemens Mitsubishi BASF Proctor & Gamble BLM United States Inc was officially no more!

Everyone celebrated. The freedom heroes had won. “Yub nub! Yub nub!” They jumped dirt bikes over owls to celebrate. The end. Also by saying “yub nub” they legally became Ewoks.
posted by compartment at 1:12 PM on January 30, 2016 [56 favorites]

and had to move to ewokee, wisconsin
posted by pyramid termite at 1:23 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I need more favorites.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:24 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

...where they invented cinnamon roll flavored dog food
posted by mochapickle at 1:24 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

(that was amazing, compartment)
posted by mochapickle at 1:25 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Best. Post. Ever.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:30 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

live video back up
posted by mochapickle at 1:40 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

They sound loopy from exhaustion to me.
posted by RedEmma at 1:49 PM on January 30, 2016

If the Bundy lawyers go down the usual Sovereign path and start submitting piles and piles of SovCit gibberish and double-speak, is the judge compelled to actually take the time to read it all? Or can the judge simply toss it all out without reading past the first page?

If the Bundy lawyers are real attorneys, they will not attempt this directly, as it is a quick path to court sanctions and eventual disbarment. Typically you see this tactic applied by "moon lawyers" and pro se litigants (for which any possible sanctions are minor compared to their current offenses, and for whom disbarment is no threat).

Some real attorneys holding moon lawyer beliefs will indirectly do this for clients by "ghostwriting" filings for ostensibly pro se litigants. It's risky, though, if they get caught (for reasons stated above).

Lots more on the topic here.
posted by zakur at 1:51 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

They're requesting a third-party negotiator, but aren't sure who they want, because they don't have faith in the information they've been getting.
posted by RedEmma at 1:54 PM on January 30, 2016

Anyone know who they're talking to on the phone... is it Arnold (lawyer) or Mackeson (lawyer)?
posted by RedEmma at 1:56 PM on January 30, 2016

They acknowledge that no uprising in support of them is coming.
posted by RedEmma at 1:57 PM on January 30, 2016

Sounds like Doug was a home-town (Idaho) Sheriff reaching out.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:57 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh crap, now I have to tune in an listen again ... I am NOT missing the season finale !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:59 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think they are even close to running out of snacks, by the way. Looks like somebody raided Sam's Club--they've got a huge container of pretzels there.
posted by RedEmma at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2016

There's even visuals finally!
posted by RedEmma at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2016

They look terrible. Just exhausted and cold.
posted by mochapickle at 2:02 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

>they've got a huge container of pretzels there.
Pretty sure that's lube
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:02 PM on January 30, 2016

They are SO mugging for the camera...
Fry yells "They KILL YOUR PETS. Throw a FLASH GRENADE IN YOUR BABY'S CRIB !"
WTF ?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:05 PM on January 30, 2016

Sandy talking about the tyranny of King George.

Seems like the negotiators could bring in an eighth grade civics teacher for a helpful chat right about now.
posted by mochapickle at 2:06 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

They had enough food for 30-40 people a few days ago, now they're down to 4. They're set on food. Booze though, they gotta be getting low
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:06 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry yells "They KILL YOUR PETS. Throw a FLASH GRENADE IN YOUR BABY'S CRIB !"
WTF ?

KILL YOUR PETS , FLASH GRENADE IN YOUR BABY'S CRIB , most likely. (Neither involved the Feds, though.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:12 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not that this in any way validates their critique, but it's interesting how much of the "evidence" for their "government is evil!!!" rhetoric comes from the war on drugs.
posted by dialetheia at 2:16 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well, there's one lesson for radical activist leaders here (armed wingnuts or not): If you declare you're going to make a stand and stay "for years" no matter what—they'll have to kill you to make you leave—and you then turn around and treat the whole thing like theatre—you did it to push forward "awareness" really, and to get your views a court hearing—there are always going to be some true believers (that you yourself might have inspired) who see your play-acting as a fundamental betrayal and will perpetuate that stand for you, whether you will or no.

In the radical Left, this problem is taken care of by not really having "leaders"—or at least trying not to—and using consensus decision making. The problem with that is that inspirational speakers do step up and, if most of the sensible sorts leave, all you've got left is a few die-hards with no life who feel committed to staying with the blockade/occupation indefinitely. Consensus doesn't really get rid of the problem if the only ones who stay are the most wingnutty amongst you.

And thus, your political action is hijacked.
posted by RedEmma at 2:21 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Les Zaitz on the siege's impact on Burns, Oregon
posted by mochapickle at 2:30 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

This problem of "when to disperse with dignity" comes around any time you have a protest involving occupation of any kind. The difference being that on the Left, getting arrested is part of what you've signed up to accept. You know going in (hopefully) whether you're going to be arrested or not.

These guys' refusal to accept the idea of being arrested has really put a monkey wrench in the whole idea of protest. I can't recall the last time anybody tried to pull Let Us All Go Scott Free (or we'll fight to the death) as a demand.
posted by RedEmma at 2:31 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

(And thus, of course, you can't call what they are doing a "protest," no matter what they and their supporters are saying.)
posted by RedEmma at 2:33 PM on January 30, 2016

Comment stream gems this time:

Justin: SERIOUS THOUGH, THIS IS THE BEST ADVERTISING EVER FOR A RANDOM ASS PARK
Hadrian Wall: SEND THE DOG OUT WITH IT'S PAWS UP
sch182: WOLVERINES!!!1111
FilthyBonfires: GOVERNMENT HAS NO RIGHT TO ORNITHOLOGY!

The next was decorated with a *lot* of American flag icons that don't translate:

MrGreen7285: Patriots David Fry Sean Anderson Sally Anderson Jeff Real Patriots LAVOY FINICUM
Michele: MrGreen, you spelled COSPLAYTRIOTS wrong...

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:34 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I can't recall the last time anybody tried to pull Let Us All Go Scott Free as a demand.

Well, when I caught my nine-year-old and his friend breaking up a stack of paving stones behind the shed with my Estwing hammer, this was pretty much their defense strategy. But, as they weren't really up on the whole rule of law thingy, we negotiated a clean-up agreement, and went over some basic realities when it comes to responsibility.

Again. Nine-year-olds.
posted by valkane at 2:38 PM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

I hope the Malheur workers will be able to have an amazing garage sale of all that gear after this is all over. They can charge extra dollars for owning a piece of "history" or whatever.
posted by RedEmma at 2:41 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I would pay a whole lot for a Malheur dildo, right?
posted by RedEmma at 2:43 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

And that 55 gallon barrel of lube should be in the Smithsonian or something.
posted by RedEmma at 2:46 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thanks to this thread, I've been singing 'Moon Lawyer' (to the tune of 'Moon River') constantly for the past 2 days.
posted by sporkwort at 2:50 PM on January 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Did anyone get to pick it up? Is it just going to be sitting at the post office forever?
posted by Artw at 2:50 PM on January 30, 2016

Live again
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:54 PM on January 30, 2016

Oh wait, that's the old one. The next scheduled one was removed.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:55 PM on January 30, 2016

How has Camp Freedom Snacks not burned down yet?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:56 PM on January 30, 2016

Sandy, in earlier video: "We really needed a walkie-talkie so we could find out what was going on and stuff"

Hint ---> 100s of police scanner relay websites.

Their camp setup is painful to me, as a former Girl Scout, backpacker, and outdoor type person. They've got some ineffective set of tarps draped over an EZ-Up canopy backed up to a vehicle, but the draping is full of gaps. Meanwhile, here and there they've hung strips of aluminum foil in an effort to reflect heat, but any such heat is going right out the gaps. They've built a fire on some sort of substrate that honestly looks like foam garage-floor cushioning, with a small sheet of sheet metal or roof flashing or something under it, and the fire is sitting right at the edge of the canopy, with most of the smoke traveling up and into the canopy. Some kind of firescreen also made of aluminum foil is stretched between canopy uprights, but there wasn't enough foil so it's just one width of foil, with open air above and below. The fire is within inches of blankets, sleeping bags, and nylon chairs all thrown together in a disorganized mess. Loose firewood and cardboard boxes are stacked next to the flames.

Like, you could really use it as a training video. "Girls, find 25 things wrong with this campsite setup."
posted by Miko at 2:57 PM on January 30, 2016 [35 favorites]

EXCEPT, I have decided that that foam tile shit they're using on the floor would be really good for under the tent when I go camping next, and in the vestibule. Better than a tarp beneath my tent, right?
posted by RedEmma at 3:00 PM on January 30, 2016

Coors Light is really regretting taking them up on that sponsorship opportunity.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:02 PM on January 30, 2016

Miko - this is not the well regulated Militia you were looking for,
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:02 PM on January 30, 2016

Not as waterproof as a tarp. I once camped with a big tarp around us in a rain deluge. We rolled the edges of it and, even though the grounds was soaked, we stayed dry. But it would add a nice cushion, and it would pack easier than rolled foam.
posted by Miko at 3:02 PM on January 30, 2016

This problem of "when to disperse with dignity" comes around any time you have a protest involving occupation of any kind. The difference being that on the Left, getting arrested is part of what you've signed up to accept. You know going in (hopefully) whether you're going to be arrested or not.

Yes this. Thank you for articulating part of what I don't get. I've been involved in a few things over the year, many minor and a couple of more serious long term protests. Going in it's just part of it to assume that getting arrested is a very real consequence. And technically with one of the things I did have a warrant out for my arrest as the cops could have dinged me under the Jane Doe and John Doe warrants that were out during part of it. This sucked but was part of the thing and expected.

None of these things were armed of course. So it just confounds me even more that people could not only do what they did but armed and not assume that the likelihood of things ending with an arrest be super duper high. That they seem surprised that it's happening and hadn't really considered it before is just boggling.
posted by Jalliah at 3:13 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Interesting OPB background piece on Fry, how ge got to where is is now and his place in the occupation:

How A Digital Friendship Created An Unlikely Holdout

It also explains that odd live video a couple nights ago where Fry suddenly leaves a moving vehicle and leaves his phone behind. Also makes his last words on that vehicle, "Wish me luck!" a lot sadder.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:26 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

That 55 gallon barrel of lube... you know, if it weren't so godawful cold there, they could try stripping down, greasing up, and attempting escape. Have you ever tried to tackled a greased up naked person?
posted by indubitable at 3:30 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Have you ever tried to tackled a greased up naked person?

No, but you make me ponder what I've been missing.
posted by Miko at 3:32 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh, man, that story with Fry's dad...ooof. Sad, messed up.
posted by Miko at 3:39 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

SURRENDER DOROTHY
posted by peeedro at 3:39 PM on January 30, 2016

Yes this. Thank you for articulating part of what I don't get. I've been involved in a few things over the year, many minor and a couple of more serious long term protests. Going in it's just part of it to assume that getting arrested is a very real consequence.

The Bundy Standoff and Recapture Canyon actions were successful. They assumed this attempt to privatize public lands through armed occupation would also work, and the Feds would give them what they want.

Or they'd get heroic martyrdom at the hands of non-patriots that would rally all the real patriots(tm). Also pleasant afterlives.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:40 PM on January 30, 2016

The Bundy Standoff and Recapture Canyon actions were successful. They assumed this attempt to privatize public lands through armed occupation would also work, and the Feds would give them what they want.

Yes I can understand that. It still doesn't totally make sense to me I guess because even though I have been involved in some successful things I just don't assume that one success with no real trouble means that I wouldn't have to consider the possibility the next time.
posted by Jalliah at 3:49 PM on January 30, 2016

These guys are big on magical thinking.
posted by Artw at 3:55 PM on January 30, 2016

Re: the question upthread about cutting cell phone service: actually, DHS has a plan for doing just that. It's secret but apparently legal.

Re: Recapture Canyon, some people were eventually charged, tried and convicted.
posted by indubitable at 3:56 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Another lesson for the future for occupationists of all stripes: Though we now have the technology to livestream our occupations, maybe let's not.
posted by RedEmma at 4:00 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

From that OPB article AGameOfMoans linked to:

... when the militants had the chance to take [Fry] with them, to effectively get him off the refuge, they instead threw him out of the car. Now, some of those same militants are urging him to leave, so they can be bailed out of jail.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:10 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

"That means when the militants had the chance to take him with them, to effectively get him off the refuge, they instead threw him out of the car. Now, some of those same militants are urging him to leave, so they can be bailed out of jail."

What a bunch of plonkers.
posted by valkane at 4:12 PM on January 30, 2016

jinxy, Tucker.
posted by valkane at 4:13 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I were out committing felonies, I'd throw out the live streamer, too.
posted by ryanrs at 4:14 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Seriously, my video game guild has strict rules and protocols for streaming opsec video game stuff.
posted by ryanrs at 4:16 PM on January 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

If I were out committing felonies, I'd throw out the live streamer, too.

So you're thinking ahead!
posted by valkane at 4:19 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

If I were out committing felonies, I'd throw out the live streamer, too.
posted by ryanrs ... to a publicly accessible forum!
posted by marienbad at 4:25 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

This page was making my browser act funny - if I hovered the pointer over the link it would move the link upwards slightly, giving this weird doubling effect, but it has cleared up now. Anyone else have this? I thought about making a pagination meta but remember them from in the past and the answer was always no, so didn't.

Also, you know how cortex did that LARP Trek comic? We need a LARP Militia (or LARP Moonlaw or whatever you want to call it) comic stat!
posted by marienbad at 4:28 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

These guys are big on magical thinking.

They did characterize themselves as four drunks. Then the big bag 'o weed, fear, and exhaustion. Insisting on staring down death, I wish they could come up with some better magic. As it is, the government of the people, by the people, for the people has to save them, from their adult daycare of death, and this in spite of them.
posted by Oyéah at 4:29 PM on January 30, 2016

I was getting extreme typing lag in the text box in this thread, until I disabled live preview. Not sure what that has to do with the length of the thread, but it was only on this page. So, helpful tip maybe.
posted by ctmf at 4:42 PM on January 30, 2016

Mod note: Few comments deleted: It's taking long enough to load that it's hard to moderate so maybe we don't need a dozen comments about how the number of comments makes for slow loading?
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 4:51 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Live Feed for Burns OR rally in support of Bundy's in a Rite Aid parking lot. Appears to be from 18-24 people at best.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:35 PM on January 30, 2016

Oh man - the link above is from a wingnut feed who made the mistake of interviewing a lone Burns resident who is acting as an anti=protester and is making a super compelling case !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:39 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't think the FBI were flying a drone, as they have much more capable aircraft.
Old article about privacy worries vs FBI plane capabilities.
Article with drone footage taken. (So journalists have be doing this recently and a professional operator for hire was there very recently)
Also I don't think the FBI was hiding behind a berm or showing force to remove them. Four vehicles and a armored personnel carrier could have been journalists and a satellite van (could look like a turret in the night) trying to sneak close for a scoop. The FBI showed patience (although I do feel there was a certain amount of paralysis initially) before pouncing, with many opportunities to leave ... and now they have no re-supplies. My prediction; when cigarettes run out, so will they ... okay on edit ... dear god who the fuck knows, am now rethinking, and going to say still a possibility, 10% chance that is the cause of surrender.

This is an odd long form interview / documentary video (youtube 43min) where Alisa Christensen goes to the refuge and interviews a bunch of bit players (one arrested Ehmer is interviewed but he is a simpleton). She sympathizes with their cause, but not to the point it is pure propaganda, and she lets some people who weren't spotlighted talk. There is lots of crazy, but it is watchable.
posted by phoque at 5:45 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I posted a new FPP, here.


Oregon Under Attack: And then there were four.
posted by valkane at 5:46 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Can the camera on the aircraft auto track and zoom to compensate somewhat for aircraft speed?
posted by humanfont at 5:49 PM on January 30, 2016

Thanks valkane, I hope we can keep it - this one is choking my phone.
posted by madamjujujive at 5:50 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can the camera on the aircraft auto track and zoom

Yes.

to compensate somewhat for aircraft speed?

Depends on the zoom/stabilization versus the aircraft's speed and distance.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:52 PM on January 30, 2016

Not trying to hijack the thread (heh), just trying to take some of the load off the server.

Continue the thread here.
posted by valkane at 5:52 PM on January 30, 2016

Frankly I think it's a good idea if the mods allow
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:53 PM on January 30, 2016

OK, now I got two threads.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's okay Tucker. Just watch as one becomes the next.
posted by valkane at 6:02 PM on January 30, 2016

Awww. We're moving?? Bye crazylong thread. It's been fun, but maybe we should go home and hug our families.
posted by RedEmma at 6:42 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

OMG, I go out for a few hours and everyone's abandoned camp.

:(
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:04 PM on January 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

We are just expanding our holdings.
posted by phoque at 7:10 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yes, this thread was only Phase 1, as was clearly and cleverly planned all along.
posted by mochapickle at 7:18 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

OMG, I go out for a few hours and everyone's abandoned camp.

Leave so the rest of us can make bail.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:24 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

We're going to end up with four people here in this thread after everyone else has left, aren't we?
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:49 PM on January 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

::taps nose::
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:09 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Last one out has to clean up the barracks.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:17 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hey looks like we're getting low on lube so I'm gonna make a run to town and I'll totally be back in a minute okay be right ba
posted by rtha at 8:22 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Don't worry. There may only be a few of us now, but there are hundreds and hundreds of MeFites massing at the perimeter, waiting to come to our assistance if they can just find a way to get through the Mods' barricades. Keep the faith!
posted by Miko at 8:24 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Dude, you're an rtha, the place is yours.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:30 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Who gets to play David?
posted by localhuman at 8:31 PM on January 30, 2016

I saw an rtha fly overhead. It is a sign, God is with us. We must stay.
posted by Miko at 8:38 PM on January 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

I would totally join you guys in defending this thread against mod overreach & "mandatory" 30-day closure of the People's Comment Section, but my Cabal Gold Rewards check is late & I can't afford the minutes.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:03 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'll just armchair warrior support you all by commenting in lots of other threads.
posted by Jalliah at 9:43 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Jalliah, could you join the Emergency Commenting Triage Center Setup By & For Patriots? We had two keyboard warriors earlier but they unfortunately had to leave since they've got commenting jobs back in town...
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:23 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Have you ever tried to tackled a greased up naked person?

Why were you looking at me when you said that?
posted by bongo_x at 11:50 PM on January 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

marienbad: "This page was making my browser act funny - if I hovered the pointer over the link it would move the link upwards slightly, giving this weird doubling effect, but it has cleared up now. Anyone else have this? "

I'm getting it too plus selecting text makes the text jump down about a 1/4 of the text height.
posted by Mitheral at 12:40 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have just come here from the new thread to say to the last few holdouts: please, leave this thread now; it was never about occupying Metafilter, it was just about freedom of speech and civil disobedience so we could have our day in a court which we refuse to recognise as legitimate as it's an Admiralty Court. Take that, Vice-Admiral Cortex and all the Midshipmen Mod team.

So come join us as we proclaim ourselves Freemen (and women) on the Land, over in the new occupying thread. We have a tarp!!
posted by marienbad at 4:14 AM on January 31, 2016 [18 favorites]

(Also, someone needs to make Cortex a fringed jacket stat!)
posted by marienbad at 4:15 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

*Starts grazing his digital cattle in this thread*
posted by drezdn at 5:16 AM on January 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

🌲🌲🌲 🐄🐃🐂🐄🐃🐂 🌲🌲🌲
posted by taz at 5:37 AM on January 31, 2016 [31 favorites]

like I don't already have a fringed jacket
posted by cortex at 8:13 AM on January 31, 2016 [25 favorites]

I have an extremely reliable source who's sent me proof that the "Moderators" in the new thread are actually clones that Obama's been growing underneath Crater Lake to destroy our culture of honor. If everyone could please only post while walking backwards and holding a gold-fringed umbrella, they won't be able to use their powers on us.

STAY WOKE, SHEEPLE.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:22 AM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

I have an extremely reliable source who's sent me proof that the "Moderators" in the new thread are actually clones that Obama's been growing underneath Crater Lake to destroy our culture of honor.

"Describe, in single words, only the good things that come into your mind about mathowie."
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:03 PM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Please note my username is now :Church-Hates: Tucker.

Thus I am no longer subject to Admiralty Moderation and demand my five bucks back with Chinese* Interest.

* Or Moorish. Whichever is higher. By which I mean Weed.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:02 PM on January 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Alright! I've finally dug my car out of the storm and I've arriv.. guys? Hellooo? :(

* starts setting up live stream *
posted by numaner at 1:38 PM on February 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

*Stands by the mailbox waiting for the dildos to come.*
posted by drezdn at 5:32 AM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Waiting For Dildot
posted by cortex at 7:26 AM on February 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

These essays were written before the recent denouement, but I'm linking them here for historical completeness:

Stop sexually harassing Ammon Bundy and his fellow Oregon occupiers

Counterpoint: Sending Dildos to Ammon Bundy Is Good
posted by homunculus at 12:21 PM on February 2, 2016

***saute***




{{{ vol }}}





///ouvre parachute\\\





~~~flotte~~~





____atterrissage____
posted by phoque at 6:45 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]