Target acquired.
January 21, 2016 4:56 PM   Subscribe

The Last Days of Target: The untold tale of Target Canada’s difficult birth, tough life and brutal death.

"Why Target Canada collapsed has been endlessly dissected by analysts, pundits and journalists. But the people who know what happened best are the employees who lived through the experience. On the first anniversary of the company’s bankruptcy filing, Canadian Business spoke to close to 30 former employees in Canada and the U.S. to find out how Target, one of the best retailers in North America, got it so wrong in Canada."
posted by futureisunwritten (70 comments total) 30 users marked this as a favorite
 
This is going to take me some time to get through, but it looks like it's a messy combination of inexperienced leadership, ridiculously compressed timelines from the CEO, wildly deluded assumptions about what an SAP implementation would take (maybe thanks to Accenture?), and at the core of it all - where it really broke down in the execution - a supply chain that basically imploded on itself. Retail's a lot like war - you don't have to have bigger guns than the enemy, if you take out their supply chain, it's game over.

Charles Spurgeon said that you should learn how to say "No." because it would be of more value to you than learning to speak Latin. It's a shame that modern corporate culture has placed such a taboo on the word. A few people saying "No, that's not going to be possible" might have saved the organization billions, hell even made them billions more for who knows how long to come. But they couldn't do that, for fear of losing their jobs.

The working environment to get that launch date met must have been hell for those people - my heart goes out.
posted by allkindsoftime at 5:22 PM on January 21, 2016 [24 favorites]


Roughly two years from that date, Target Canada filed for creditor protection, marking the end of its first international foray

Huh. I was sure Target had been operating successfully in Australia for years, but it turns out that is a totally unrelated business with a practically identical logo.

Really though, that Target managed to completely fuck up such a no-brainer is really quite the feat. All they had to do: 1. Buy Zellers' entire operation from HBC. 3. Gradually introduce Target merchandise as it became available. 3. (Optional.) Rename Zellers. I mean, my god, they gutted hundreds of stores only to redo them more or less exactly as they were, and built a whole new inventory and delivery infrastructure from the ground (halfway) up. Utter insanity.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:25 PM on January 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


Huh. I was sure Target had been operating successfully in Australia for years, but it turns out that is a totally unrelated business with a practically identical logo.

Yeah, aussies get rather confused by all the US Target love. I mean, the Australian Target is fine, but not hugely different from K-Mart or Big W, so my US friends' overwhelming enthusiasm for their Target always struck me as bizarre.

We do like to pronounce it "Tar-zhey" to make it sound all fancy.
posted by kitten magic at 5:41 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


We do like to pronounce it "Tar-zhey" to make it sound all fancy.

Reminds me when I was in high school back in Australia. "Where did you get your clothes?" "Oh from the House of Tar-zhey"
posted by Talez at 5:43 PM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


Long read, but fascinating. It has an almost operatic quality to it; a morality play about corporate hubris and fickle technology. Very dramatic, with surprising pathos. I found myself genuinely sympathetic to the hapless employees who were working like crazy, while the ship sank all around them.

Give it a year, then turn it over to Netflix, I say.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 5:50 PM on January 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


I mean, my god, they gutted hundreds of stores only to redo them more or less exactly as they were

Yeah, the main difference between my local Target and the Zellers it replaced was the shopping cart escalator. Which is pretty cool but probably not worth all the trouble.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:52 PM on January 21, 2016


My wife still laments the loss of Target in Canada nearly every day. It was a great place to work for a retail location. There would be food in the staff room on off-pay weeks, they were not just anti-discriminatory but actively hiring trans, disabled, and other marginalized individuals, and the (very young) store leadership team was heavily supportive of its employees.

But oh boy the problems...
posted by GhostintheMachine at 5:54 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, aussies get rather confused by all the US Target love. I mean, the Australian Target is fine, but not hugely different from K-Mart or Big W, so my US friends' overwhelming enthusiasm for their Target always struck me as bizarre.

We do like to pronounce it "Tar-zhey" to make it sound all fancy.
posted by kitten magic at 8:41 PM on January 21 [+] [!]


Reminds me when I was in high school back in Australia. "Where did you get your clothes?" "Oh from the House of Tar-zhey"
posted by Talez at 8:43 PM on January 21 [1 favorite +] [!]


For what it's worth, Target basically was K-Mart when I was a Midwestern kid in the 80s. They did a major rebranding around the turn of the century and became trendy.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:57 PM on January 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


I expected I'd love Target and stop missing Zellers once we got it, but I didn't like Target and I still missed Zellers. The home furnishings were okay but their clothes and accessories were cheap and ugly. Now that Target didn't pan out and I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart, I'm left hoping something pops up to fill the gap. My best hope is that Giant Tiger starts expanding, but that would happen slowly if at all.
posted by orange swan at 5:59 PM on January 21, 2016


...their clothes and accessories were cheap and ugly. I still miss Zellers.

These two statements don't really make sense together, you know. Every Zellers I ever visited was complete crap, and I just don't get the rosy nostalgia for a store that was only a step above the dollar stores in quality and customer service, with prices higher than Walmart.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:04 PM on January 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


I've only visited Target in Louisiana, but it didn't strike as being very much nicer than Target in Australia - a bit nicer, perhaps, but no more than difference there might be between two outlets if they belonged to the same chain.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:05 PM on January 21, 2016


I mean, my god, they gutted hundreds of stores only to redo them more or less exactly as they were

Yeah, the main difference between my local Target and the Zellers it replaced was the shopping cart escalator. Which is pretty cool but probably not worth all the trouble.


Hey, the local news in my area dedicated TWO DAYS of coverage to our newly-opened Target and its shopping cart escalator. It was a slow news summer.

We also call it Tar-zhay, because pretending it is French puts the "chic" in "cheap chic".



That said, what a cluster. The sheer amount of data entry made my eyes cross in sympathy.
posted by chainsofreedom at 6:18 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


...their clothes and accessories were cheap and ugly. I still miss Zellers.

These two statements don't really make sense together, you know. Every Zellers I ever visited was complete crap, and I just don't get the rosy nostalgia for a store that was only a step above the dollar stores in quality and customer service, with prices higher than Walmart.


To clarify, it was Target's clothing and accessories that I found cheap and ugly. Zellers had some cute things. I used to shop at Zellers for household basics and I would usually take a few minutes to swing through the clothing and accessories to see what I could get for $20 or so. I've still got a number of things I bought there. I never bought anything wearable at Target. Zellers had higher prices than Wal-Mart because they didn't have Wal-Mart's asshole business style, i.e., forcing suppliers to give them lower and lower prices. Dollar stores don't generally carry much clothing or larger household items, so they aren't a substitute for Zellers.
posted by orange swan at 6:20 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


SAP will bring you to your knees if your data isn't 100% accurate...
posted by walkinginsunshine at 6:26 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


"We do like to pronounce it "Tar-zhey" to make it sound all fancy."

I was in Target one day and overheard a guy on his phone: "Estoy en Tar-zhay. ... Tar-zhay. Sabes? Target? Tar-zhay?"

I love more than anything that this joke travels.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:29 PM on January 21, 2016 [28 favorites]


Former employees describe decoding SAP as like peeling an onion—it had multiple layers and made you want to cry. 

QFT.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:32 PM on January 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


There was significant talent left over from the Zellers staff. People who understood the Canadian market. They were ignored by the Target overlords. Or so I've been told.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:49 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Target store in St. John's was fine for what it was. Reminded me of when Walmart bought the Woolco stores in the 1990s. Slap a fresh face on it and stock it full of pretty much the same stuff. It was right next to a Costco that is always off the rails (only one on an island of 500,000), and in a Big Box Land, so I figured they'd do just fine. But like the Zellers before it, the place was always a ghost town, save for the numerous attentive and cheerful employees.

As someone who gets stressed and anxious about work, I cannot imagine what the working environment must have been like for those who had to witness this crash in slow motion.
posted by futureisunwritten at 6:51 PM on January 21, 2016


I miss Zellers.
posted by ovvl at 6:51 PM on January 21, 2016


any outfit that thought they could roll out a cold SAP deploy in under 2 years was smoking the wacky, consultant or no. I used to work for Big Chemical and the transition from one version of SAP to another, in house with a mature support organization, almost crippled this F500 company.

I used to put in work orders in SAP and it was one lengthy exercise in fooling the system into doing what you wanted it to do.
posted by hearthpig at 6:54 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


The only thing I know about SAP is that it is infamous for extremely long deployments so when I read in the article that Target was going to set up a new system in Canada using SAP with a hard 2 year deadline to get it up and running I knew it was going to be trouble.

I have no idea what they're going to replace the Target with at the mall in my neighbourhood. It already has a Bay, Canadian Tire, Shoppers Drug Mart, and No Frills. There is a Best Buy and Indigo at nearby malls so I don't think either of those would work either. Do we have any other stores in Canada that are of "anchor tenant" size?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 6:55 PM on January 21, 2016


There still is one Zellers store left. It is in Bell's Corners in Ottawa. I take great satisfaction that despite everything Zellers has outlasted Target in Canada.
posted by fimbulvetr at 7:03 PM on January 21, 2016 [6 favorites]


It is amazing that anybody working on the project retained their vision or hearing from the constant klaxons that must have been going off in their heads. "We'll implement a huge technology project faster than anybody's ever done it before, no problem!"

I wasn't even involved and I need a drink after reading that. All that bullshit because nobody was able to say "no" to anything.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:10 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Shit, i don't even really understand how target stays open in the US. I get that there's certain things they sell a lot of, like clothes, but how do they turn a profit on those HUGE stores full of shit like chairs that people probably only buy a couple of a month in agregate, and keep for years? Every target i've been in has tons of employees too.

The downtown seattle one is busy, but all i ever really see people buying is like... food(and that's really only because downtown has no grocery store other than target and the overpriced and kind of shitty kress).

The entire concept of department stores is weird and outdated seeming to me. I just don't understand how kmart and sears are imploding and target isn't, when even higher end stores like Macy's seem to be getting depressingly raggedy. Do they really sell that many tshirts and wii games? Do the clothing and grocery sections prop up the rest of the store?

The entire thing seems like an anachronism, especially the ones that have food courts.
posted by emptythought at 7:23 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am now even more excited that my company has just decided to switch to SAP. It was supposed to launch 2 weeks ago Monday but they keep delaying it a few days at a time...from my perspective, the delay has been annoying because I cannot issue POs to buy things and I find it really awkward to be promising our suppliers to make them a PO, um, someday. Now I am getting more and more worried about what the delay implies long term....
posted by Tandem Affinity at 7:29 PM on January 21, 2016


Shit, i don't even really understand how target stays open in the US.

I think of Target as the place that consolidates all the stuff that doesn't really deserve its own dedicated store and which you prefer to buy in person. Plus other stuff that apparently sell enough of to justify stocking.

Target is where I go when I need to buy something like a trash can. Or a mop. Or Christmas decorations. Or food storage containers. I have no idea where you are but the Target stores near me stay pretty busy.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 8:07 PM on January 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Do they really sell that many tshirts and wii games? Do the clothing and grocery sections prop up the rest of the store?"

Yes. Because in one cold-medicine-addled errand, I can pick up new pants for my preschooler, uniform shirts for my grade schooler, two birthday presents for weekend parties, oh my husband needs underwear and we're down to three mittens total housewide, Diet Coke, cookie-baking supplies, a salad, mounting hardware, spare forks, a storage bin, three cards for Mother's Day, cat food, shampoo, and all the cold medicine in the world.

Otherwise it's Kohl's, PetSmart, the grocery store, fucking Toys R Us, the hardware store, and the pharmacy. It's the MASSIVE CONSOLIDATION OF ANNOYING ERRANDS that provides value, especially when I just need one or two things, but from a whole bunch of places.

And I'm kind-of off Target lately. It just can't be beaten for errand consolidation, though, and I often only have the energy to deal with going exactly one place.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:13 PM on January 21, 2016 [19 favorites]


The massive Target on the northern border of the Junction is allegedly going to become a Nations Fresh Foods (sign has been up since the fall, but no sign of work inside yet.) I feel bad for the tiny Welcome Food Market just down the street.
posted by maudlin at 8:30 PM on January 21, 2016


Shit, i don't even really understand how target stays open in the US.

They stay open because it is all but impossible to go to one and buy only the things you went there to get. I almost always buy more stuff there than I intended to. That's why my go-to Target joke is "they should just charge a $20 cover and your first item is free."
posted by Ranucci at 9:15 PM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I loved Target while it was here. Essentially the same range of goods as WalMart but with better quality clothing (though less selection) for about half a percent more money. But that half a percent really hurt them locally. And the shopping experience was so much nicer than WalMart. Nice wide isles. No 20-30 minute wait to clear the register. No displays in the center of the isle preventing carts from passing each other. And lots of staff. But all I ever heard from people was how expensive it was. People were expecting US pricing in Canada and of course that was never going to happen. And the store was a ghost town every time I was there. Though to be fair the Zellers at that location was also a ghost town.
posted by Mitheral at 9:15 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


kitten magic: "We do like to pronounce it "Tar-zhey" to make it sound all fancy."

We do that in Texas, too (or at least in Houston, don't know about the rest of the state).
posted by Bugbread at 11:12 PM on January 21, 2016


Man, I miss Target. They were supposed to be building one in Fairbanks---as in, I think they'd even bought/leased the land---and then the economy tanked. I keep hoping. 'Cause otherwise, my options are Walmart (ugh), Sears (ugh and doesn't actually have anything useful except appliances, which are better and cheaper at Lowes and Home Depot), and Fred Meyer. Which, Freddy's is fine, and I spend all the money there, but...my memory is that Target was better. (Different, anyway, and pretty sure had better clothes.) I think there's one down in Wasilla or some place (I checked, actually, there's one in Wasilla and two in Anchorage!), so it's not like they have no presence in Alaska, even.

Speaking of which: Bear pays a visit to Anchorage target
posted by leahwrenn at 11:15 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I loved Target, but they really really fucked up their expansion into Canada. I mean yeah it's nice that they turned some grungy dirty Zellers stores into nice bright stores, but these things could have been done differently. We didn't really need to spend the money painting all the buildings red and buying new shopping carts and changing the windows etc. It would have been FINE to leave the grocery section out completely, that's something you add after you're established. Going through grocery aisles with 3/4 empty shelves is creepy. I loved the Target clothing, and home decor. I don't love Walmart clothing or their decor section, and I absolutely did not like the Zellers clothing. I am still keeping warm with my Target hat and mittens (though their brand, Beaver Canoe? Really? WTF Target), my spring Jacket is from there and many shirts and underwear.

I really wish they had just... downsized a bit and kept going. It may have taken some time to turn a profit but they lost 7 BILLION dollars, for NOTHING. At least if they could have said it was an investment that would eventually pay off, but nope. Blame it on Beaver Canoe.
posted by Hazelsmrf at 11:32 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel some satisfaction that one of the things that brought them down was douchebag analysts turning off important systems because the truth would get them reprimands and trouble. And probably hurt their bonuses.
posted by maxwelton at 12:00 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


We also call it Tar-zhay, because pretending it is French puts the "chic" in "cheap chic".

Our "Tar-zhay" is right across the street from "Jacques Say Pennay".
posted by madajb at 12:13 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


Huh. I was sure Target had been operating successfully in Australia for years, but it turns out that is a totally unrelated business with a practically identical logo.
Huh, I had no idea they were unrelated, apart from a licensing deal for the name/logo.

I guess it's easy to pick apart something like this with the benefit of hindsight, but there was no hope in hell the timeframes set were ever going to work at that scale. Even leaving SAP out of the equation (which is, as pointed out elsewhere, best known for slow implementation), even though they had dealt with one of the big issues by taking over an existing network of stores, a launch like this in a country the company has never operated in (and, of course, assumed their US management staff would be better than any locals they might hire) in two years was never ever going to work. Once they had locked themselves into that rolling schedule of new stores, they were doomed.
posted by dg at 12:34 AM on January 22, 2016


I find it really fascinating that the UPC field didn't have a sanity check. It's got a checksum built in, for crying out loud.
posted by Standard Orange at 1:02 AM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


Eyebrows McGee: It just can't be beaten for errand consolidation, though, and I often only have the energy to deal with going exactly one place.

That used to be my thought about Target. Until a couple years ago when I went in to get my prescription refill, as I had been doing every month for the past five years, and they had it wrong AGAIN. And I had to spend a half-hour waiting for someone to fix it. I changed my prescriptions to my health insurance's online pharmacy and they show up in my mailbox.

Then on my next visit to Target, I spent ten minutes trying to buy a birthday card because the self-checkout weighing station couldn't detect the weight of the card. I left the card and about $50 worth of groceries sitting there (there was nobody overseeing the new self-checkouts at lunch-time), walked over to customer service, explained the problem, then left, never to return.

Turns out that I'm much happier doing my errand consolidation at Amazon.com. For something I need Right Now, I'll go to the convenience store and happily pay the markup.
posted by DaveP at 2:56 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't see the replenishment analysts as 'douchebags' for turning off active status and thus inflating their in-stock replenishment. These were 1st jobs for kids right out of university. They were given a terrible buggy system, crazy forecasts and were then held accountable to demonstrate on paper the opposite of what anyone with eyes could see in a store. I think they were scared and tired, and just trying to keep their jobs.

I met an ex Target logistics manager at a party last year. He said that he alone covered off duties for Canada that two dozen people did in the US, and yet was constantly been pushed to get it all done.
posted by walkinginsunshine at 3:40 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


Beaver Canoe? Really? WTF Target

You can't really hold that over Target, Beaver Canoe is Roots. The Beaver Canoe sweatshirt was the must have item for children of status-conscious patents in the '80s, let me tell you.

I don't have any particular affection for Target, but man does it suck that we only have Walmart for non-boutique General retail now. I mean, Camadian Tire only goes so far.
posted by rodlymight at 4:31 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


Target Canada did everything by formula. A Zeller's store that was just slightly smaller than an airship hangar? Too small to be Target. That's why this chunk of retail building in my 'hood has set empty since 2012. It was one of the newest purpose-built Zeller's. The parking lot is mostly used by truckers to dump oil straight into the city drain now.

But running a separate inventory system from the US operation? Yeah, that's set up to fail.
posted by scruss at 5:25 AM on January 22, 2016


I call Target the "house of flavor" because they have a remarkable array of house brand grilling and dipping sauces, spice rubs, slow-cooker packets etc. Between those and a big bag of Costco frozen chicken I've got meals for weeks.
posted by Standeck at 6:32 AM on January 22, 2016


Target is beloved in my part of the world (Minnesota), partly because it was born here. Perhaps Minnesota Nice helped keep Target Canada on the path of doom.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:04 AM on January 22, 2016


Do we have any other stores in Canada that are of "anchor tenant" size?

My local Target is becoming a Lowes, apparently. All the red trim on the façade has been painted blue recently.

I liked Target when it was here; nice wide aisles, clean washrooms, friendly staff and the prices were okay. The Zellers it replaced near me was godawful. After it all shut down I was staggered to read it was one of the "busier" Canuck Targets though, as it was always completely dead, that's what made it a nice, calm place to shop.

That article was super interesting, definitely worth a read for anyone thinking it's too long.
posted by jamesonandwater at 7:09 AM on January 22, 2016


The Mississauga head office, meanwhile, didn’t have a clear picture of how bad the situation was inside stores. The merchandising department’s software often indicated items were in stock, but then the team would field confused and angry phone calls from employees responsible for store operations, demanding to know why they didn’t have products. “We almost didn’t see what the customer was seeing,” says a former employee. “We’d look on paper and think we’re OK. Then we’d go to the store, and it’s like, ‘Oh my god.’”

The other thing working against Target here were the expectations people had based on cross-border shopping. I can testify, having grown up in one, that Canadians in border cities and towns looooove their cross-border shopping, even when the Canadian dollar is weak.

And by "border city," I'm talking about places with land crossings where, pre-9/11, you could drive from your house in Canada to a shopping centre in the U.S. in under half an hour.

So when the inventory on shelves ended up being...not there in Target's Canadian stores, a lot of Canadian shoppers were in a position to compare and contrast the retail experience first hand with the U.S. locations. So this amplified the "WTF" factor for them.

I liked Target when it was here; nice wide aisles, clean washrooms, friendly staff and the prices were okay. The Zellers it replaced near me was godawful.

Oh, god yes. The Zellers that was near us at the time of the selloff was an intensely dreary retail experience. I would pop in there from time to time because there were sale items that made it worth the trip, but I would walk out of there with a case of the sads.

It was one of the ones that WalMart took over, though.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:13 AM on January 22, 2016


Still miss Zeller's cheap craft section, which Target (even when actually fully stocked) never had. They also had some good deals on a few types of clothing. Their restaurant was "the place to be" for all the seniors in my old neighbourhood.

I don't buy too much crafting supplies at that price point, but when I did Zeller's was my top choice. (I refuse to go to Michael's and support their sexist owners.)

Target also cause a lot of ill-will in the community by firing all the long-time Zeller's employees with seniority and hiring new ones back at minimum wage, as if they were just starting. I guess Canadian Business doesn't find that part of the story to be too relevant.
posted by Kurichina at 7:22 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, Target closing in Canada wasn't my fault, that's for sure. I was there twice a week, at least.

Interesting that they had that focus on 'Mom's List', all the basic staples, which is precisely what I went to Target for. They were great for that (in my experience, which may have been the exception), and it's what had me coming in to do all my basic top-up weekly shopping. The consolidation factor made it so handy, without the nausea of having to go to a Hamilton Wal-Mart (which, as much as I love my town, can be pretty disgusting).

Add to that Target's home brands generally being as good or better than the national brands, and cheaper, and in a nice place to shop -- I was there all the time. When they announced their pullout, I went over and dropped a few hundred just on home brand sundries to stock in the basement. It pains me to have to open another bag of their paper towels, because that's one step closer to never having them again.

Plus, they had giant jars of almonds for super-cheap, and I lubs me some almonds.

Granted, they weren't perfect, but they were getting better. For me, they were pretty great. For all the complaining about Target Canada, I found them much, much better than the alternatives. When it closed, people raved about Wal-Mart, Zellers, and even reached back to fucking WoolCo, and I had absolutely no idea what they were talking about.

Maybe my experience was exceptional. Maybe I've spent too much time in Barton St. Wal-Mart. Whatever it is, I fucking loved Target, and I miss that place every goddamn day. It pains me to go into a Target in the States and remember what I've lost.

Thanks for the article -- it made a lot of sense, and it was good to get the background on all of this. From my perspective as a customer, they did a pretty good job of hiding those problems, and that's only to their workers' credit.

If they come back, I'll be right there waiting. But I doubt that will ever happen.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:35 AM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


I guess Canadian Business doesn't find that part of the story to be too relevant.

Yes, exactly. While I found this breakdown of their failure fascinating (and one that should be used as a warning to any company hoping to enter the Canadian market) the CB story is missing some pieces of the narrative: stories of the minimum wage staff cut loose by the closure, the mess the liquidation was, the further erosion of the retail landscape of the small towns they were in and the insult that their "Target Loves Canada" website was. Anything Target could do wrong they somehow managed to do it.
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:39 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


Target is where I go when I need to buy something like a trash can. Or a mop. Or Christmas decorations. Or food storage containers.

I get all these things on Amazon at this point, frankly. And yes, I am the one that rails against Amazon and all the evil that they are and stand for, so I am a hypocrite in this regard. But I get it cheaper than Target and it's waiting for me when I get home from work, not requiring an additional stop on the way home.

The only things we get at Target at this point are things like deodorant or face soap or Easter candy for the nieces and nephews, because they are things that are too clunky to find quickly and precisely on Amazon. Searching for Old Spice Pure Sport deodorant gets me nearly endless options of the number of sticks and price points that I can get them at from different sellers to the point where I don't know if I'm getting a good deal or not. And they usually seem to be on sale at Target, for one price, and it's the two pack I like getting. So yeah - once Amazon figures out how to streamline that rather than offering me every option in the world, I'm not sure how the Targets will stay open anymore either.
posted by allkindsoftime at 7:47 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


"...a lot of Canadian shoppers were in a position to compare and contrast the retail experience first hand with the U.S. locations. So this amplified the "WTF" factor for them."

True. But I always found that criticism a bit unfair. When have Canadians ever had the same retail experience on the Canadian side as on the American side? We don't get the same thing ever -- it's always less in Canada. Wal-Mart, Amazon, Netflix, Williams Sonoma, Bed Bath Beyond, McDonalds, everything. It's a big part of why cross-border shopping exists in the first place. So Target Canada doesn't deliver the same as Target US? Of course it doesn't, nobody does. That doesn't make it right, but how was this even an expectation?

The basis of comparison should only have been against those retailers who were already here in the Canadian market. Sure, I can get more stuff at IKEA Sweden then I can from IKEA Canada -- so what? Is IKEA Canada better than the Brick, that's the question.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:57 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yes. Because in one cold-medicine-addled errand, I can pick up new pants for my preschooler, uniform shirts for my grade schooler, two birthday presents for weekend parties, oh my husband needs underwear and we're down to three mittens total housewide, Diet Coke, cookie-baking supplies, a salad, mounting hardware, spare forks, a storage bin, three cards for Mother's Day, cat food, shampoo, and all the cold medicine in the world.

Otherwise it's Kohl's, PetSmart, the grocery store, fucking Toys R Us, the hardware store, and the pharmacy. It's the MASSIVE CONSOLIDATION OF ANNOYING ERRANDS that provides value, especially when I just need one or two things, but from a whole bunch of places.


...or Superstore. This is Canada. We already have that, but better.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:03 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


When have Canadians ever had the same retail experience on the Canadian side as on the American side?

I have always felt that it is an indelible part of the Canadian character to do exactly that - moan about something that's better in the US then it is in Canada even though it should be the same thing.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:06 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also the prices should be the same! When I saw the government was investigating multinationals that sold things for higher prices in Canada than in the U.S. I almost fell out of my chair.
posted by grouse at 10:02 AM on January 22, 2016




I have been witness to SAP implementations at numerous companies, and it never, ever has gone smoothly or delivered on time. Adding that on top of a complex rollout in a different country is just insane.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:29 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


Toronto Star article on what has happened to former Target stores in the Toronto

The small tenants who invested on the basis of the Target anchor tenant being there were a big concern on the commercial real estate side of things. The Target spaces themselves would eventually be recovered, and most likely carved up, but how would those small tenants survive in the meantime?

Another problem was that all the Canadian chains which could be interested in the Target spaces -- Canadian Tire, Wal-Mart, grocery chains, etc. -- were already mature. They had the spaces they needed. There would be pickups here and there, but no chain existed which needed a large, new network. No mature American chain stood by to take over the spaces, either, and even if an American chain existed looking to move in, Target's experience cooled those plans quickly.

So, some pickups, a lot of eventual carveups, and lots of small tenants holding on by their fingernails until then.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:23 AM on January 22, 2016


Another problem was that all the Canadian chains which could be interested in the Target spaces -- Canadian Tire, Wal-Mart, grocery chains, etc. -- were already mature. They had the spaces they needed. There would be pickups here and there, but no chain existed which needed a large, new network.

What's more, simultaneous to the whole Target thing, Best Buy bought up and shut down Future Shop, so there's all those empty boxes, too.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:41 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


(I've never been much for protectionism, but I do think it's pretty shitty for foreign companies to just buy up Canadian businesses only to completely erase them. It just keeps happening over and over and over. It feels a bit silly to say a retail chain is A Part of Our Heritage™, but, well, maybe it's because our history is inextricably tied to that of a department store that this shit bothers me so much.)
posted by Sys Rq at 1:00 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


leahwrenn: "Which, Freddy's is fine, and I spend all the money there, but...my memory is that Target was better. "

The Fairbanks Fred Meyer is pretty good for what it is. Better groceries than Target (or, really anyplace else in Fairbanks from what I remember). The home goods and clothing sections are indeed not as good as Target, but weren't awful either.

Things might have changed since the last time I was in Fairbanks (2008ish), but I left the place kind of wishing that Fred Meyer or something similar would become commonplace on the East Coast. They don't have the "stock everything under the sun" mentality that Target or Wal-Mart have, but they were pretty good at judiciously choosing what to stock in the limited space available.

Oh, and shopping at the Fairbanks Wal-Mart was always fun. You could tell that an item was being marked up for the Alaskan market (sometimes by absurd amounts) because it'd have "-AK" added to the end of its SKU.

Target works well because they do a number of small things to tip the scales in favor of making you want to shop there over someplace else. The stores are pretty clean, the prices are pretty good (on stuff that's also much nicer than what you'd find at other discount chains), and the place always tends to be very well-stocked.

Target's magic is that they offer lots of small incremental improvements over their competitors. These things probably don't cost them a whole lot to provide in aggregate, but they're enough to let the chain charge a small premium on some items without having their customers begrudge them for it (this is a great example of capitalism working for everyone, by the way!).

However, take away a few of those small advantages, and Target becomes a very unpleasant place to shop. I'm not surprised the Canadian chain failed, because Target only stays competitive if all of its pieces are working well. The DC target is always way too crowded for the size of the store, which leads to crowds, dirty floors, long lines, and empty shelves). I don't shop there, but I'd probably go back to Target if I lived someplace else.

By contrast, the DC Trader Joes knows how to run the hell out of a popular urban store. The lines can get long, but move quickly, and use a fair queueing system. Their "back room" is apparently larger than the store itself, and on a busy day, the store turns over its entire inventory something like 3 times a day without ever having the shelves go empty. [The weather this week created a notable exception]
posted by schmod at 1:00 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've never been much for protectionism

Same here and nor did I have much allegiance to Zellers or Future Shop. But you're right this is a problem and I truly don't know how it can be solved.

In larger centres those spaces will eventually get filled but what about the secondary & tertiary markets? What store will replace them? I can't think of a chain of a decent size that'd do it. So what's left? A small town with an unleasable empty space, people who have to travel to another town to buy everyday stuff and people out of work.
posted by Ashwagandha at 1:21 PM on January 22, 2016


"...so there's all those empty boxes, too.

As well, it's often easier, cheaper, and more effective in purely commercial terms to simply build a new box, rather than try to convert some other chain's box. My local Target remains empty. A new PetSmart is coming in to that plaza, but it makes more commercial sense for them to build their own new box next door to the empty Target, than for them to take over the existing Target space.

And then seeing that kind of corporate environmental wastefulness, I don't feel so bad about wanting to keep my incandescent light bulbs.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:46 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm reminded of this article speculating about Target Canada's woes back in 2014, before all was lost. I still remember how many words (so many!) the author devoted to propping up his thesis that it's Canada's vast distances (and unfavorable tax climate) that was tripping up Target... but then he casually tossed out just a few sentences about how they had also outsourced their entire logistics operation to Genco and Sobeys. WTF? Like, maybe say a little more about that? If it was something inherent in Canada's geography that was the problem, then how does Walmart Canada (or, for that matter, The Bay) exist?
posted by mhum at 2:55 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


There would be a LOT of opportunity for the Quebec Target stores, because we don't have a lot of the big stores the rest of Canada has. We don't have Lowes, or RCSS (we have Loblaws though), no Bed Bath and Beyond... I can't even VIEW the Pottery Barn website either. Yes our language laws are a pain in the ass. But the products are already bilingual.
posted by Hazelsmrf at 4:22 PM on January 22, 2016


then how does Walmart Canada (or, for that matter, The Bay) exist?

Even better - The Bay exists precisely because of those long distances.

I thought this MeFi comment about Target in Canada was great anecdata:

a few weeks ago, I went to Target (in Canada) and was looking for men's shoes but couldn't find them. I asked a salesperson where they were and she told me they were out. I asked "Of all men's shoes?" and was told yes.

Yes, we have no shoes despite normally carrying - and advertising - such items.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:57 PM on January 22, 2016


I live very near the Stockyards location, which was their main purpose-built location in Toronto, and despite the fact that it was an close and obvious location for me to shop when I had a car, and still the closest grocery store to my commute route when I didn't, it was too much of a pain in the ass to actually go there. The store was away from the major corner it was located on, and on the second level of the complex, which meant just getting into it took time. Then the basic items like groceries and drug store stuff were all the way on the far side of the cavernous store from the entrance. So just getting in and out of the store took something like 15-20 minutes, without even buying anything. It was faster and easier to go to a couple of smaller stores (in succession when I had a car, on separate days when I didn't) than to shlep through Target.

Add to the inconvenience of the layout the fact that they actually had really poor selection in their grocery section, and it wasn't a place I went much. I don't think that was a supply chain issue -- the shelves were full, there just weren't very many grocery shelves, so there wasn't room for them to offer much variety.

I bought some toys there one Christmas because Toys R Us is hard to get to on transit, but other than that, I never really found any compelling reason to go to Target.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:17 PM on January 23, 2016


Yes. Because in one cold-medicine-addled errand, I can pick up new pants for my preschooler, uniform shirts for my grade schooler, two birthday presents for weekend parties, oh my husband needs underwear and we're down to three mittens total housewide, Diet Coke, cookie-baking supplies, a salad, mounting hardware, spare forks, a storage bin, three cards for Mother's Day, cat food, shampoo, and all the cold medicine in the world.

I guess what bugs me, and what i was getting at... is sort of what bugs me about walmart too. And no, this isn't some moral play.

Target always seems to have the crappier version of what i'm looking for. Or just the wrong one. I can get all the stuff i'd have to make trips to multiple places to make... sometimes, but i often have to compromise on what variation of that item i'm getting. I'll end up with the wrong soap, or a different but vaguely similar version of the gift item(that i know they wont like quite as much/wont really work with the inside joke i was planning/etc), etc. They always seem to have one or two things that what i actually needed, and then the rest is slightly off or they're out of what i needed and i end up subbing something and going "well, i'm already here, and i don't feel like going to OTHER_PLACE too".

It's not that i end up just getting more than i intended, it's that i end up with a bunch of crap i didn't really want because it's not quite the right thing. Sometimes that crap just goes on a shelf, or gets returned later.

Like i guess my first question of how they make money has been answered, but i still see them as an imperfect solution to errand consolidation because i always end up with several slightly-wrong items, some of which always never get used, because they were out of or just didn't have quite the right thing.

I'm just tired of buying things that are "close enough" because i don't have the time or don't feel like making a big expedition to get the actually right then, then realizing later i never used them because they weren't. And target is like, ground zero for that.
posted by emptythought at 2:18 PM on January 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


(I refuse to go to Michael's and support their sexist owners.)

What's the story with this?
posted by lauranesson at 3:09 PM on January 26, 2016


Yeah, I was wondering about that too. The Googles do nothing. Michaels is a public corporation, mostly owned by the same handful of giant investment firms that own just about everything else. (Bain Capital et al.)

Confused it with Hobby Lobby, maybe?
posted by Sys Rq at 5:25 PM on January 26, 2016


I've been thinking about how I'm doing my shopping in a post-Zellers Toronto (I used to have two nice Zellers stores located within a ten-minute walk from my house, sob), and it's been largely a matter of divvying up my purchasing among a number of other stores. I used to get basic household supplies and personal care products at Zellers, and now I buy those items at No-Frills when I get the groceries. They're a touch more expensive at No-Frills than they were at Zellers, but it's not a huge difference, and it's even more convenient. I used to buy craft supplies at Zellers, but happily, Michaels arrived on the scene just after Zellers departed, and its prices are as good as Zellers' were, plus they have far more selection, so I'm well served in that regard as well. Finding sources for inexpensive clothing, accessories, and home furnishings is more of a problem. I'm running here and there for those things, and paying more. I used to buy underwear at Zellers, and I guess now I'm buying that sort of thing at the Bay, which is much more expensive and less convenient. Thank heavens, I do have a wonderful thrift store nearby as well as lots of dollar stores, and I can get quite a lot of what I need at those two places.

There's a Wal-Mart a twenty-minute walk away, but I almost never shop at Wal-Mart for both ethical and practical reasons. I think I've maybe bought two items there in the last six years. It's a horrible place to shop (always seems to be packed with people screaming at their children), and their products are shit and not worth even the low prices they charge for them.

A good big box department store is really a wonderful thing, and we're without one in Toronto for the time being.
posted by orange swan at 9:14 AM on January 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I miss Target. I moved to Canada in October 2013, shopped at Target a fair amount and never encountered the empty shelves or other issues people complained about. Yeah, selection could be more limited and things could sometimes cost more than they did in the U.S., but that's just true about so many things in Canada. I wonder if I had better experiences since I usually shopped at the Cloverdale location, which might be one of the closest to Target Canada's Mississauga headquarters.
posted by grouse at 11:01 AM on January 29, 2016


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