Here she has grabbed by the neck and by his member
January 31, 2016 2:54 PM Subscribe
Trial by combat (or judicial duel, judicial combat) was a method of Germanic law to settle accusations in the absence of witnesses or a confession in which two parties in dispute fought in single combat; the winner of the fight was proclaimed to be right.
One of the forms of judicial duel was so-called marital duels (or conjugal duels) in which a husband and a wife physically prove their case in domestic disputes. In an effort to even the field, husbands were ordered to fight while confined to a shallow pit with one arm tied to his body.
German law provided that in such a case the man should be armed with three wooden clubs. He was to put be up to his waist in a three-foot wide hole dug in the ground, with one hand tied behind his back. The woman was to be armed with three rocks, each weighing between one and five pounds, and each one wrapped in cloth in form of a small sack. The man could not leave his hole but the woman was free to run around the edge of the pit. If the man touched the edge of the pit with either his hand or his arm, he had to surrender one of his clubs to the judges. If the woman hit him with a rock while he was doing so, she forfeited one of her stones.
I wish I had been aware of this option last Thursday night when my wife claimed I had never asked her to pick up some paper towels on the way home that night, but I totally did.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:01 PM on January 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
I wish I had been aware of this option last Thursday night when my wife claimed I had never asked her to pick up some paper towels on the way home that night, but I totally did.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:01 PM on January 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
At first glance this seems like an odd but pretty fair way for couples to settle marital disputes, but apparently the loser of the combat was often then put to death. This would be a bit much for any relationship to weather.
posted by Flashman at 3:13 PM on January 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Flashman at 3:13 PM on January 31, 2016 [11 favorites]
German law provided that in such a case the man should be armed with three wooden clubs. He was to put be up to his waist in a three-foot wide hole dug in the ground, with one hand tied behind his back. The woman was to be armed with three rocks, each weighing between one and five pounds, and each one wrapped in cloth in form of a small sack.
People need to stop citing Rounders as the sport that led to baseball, clearly it was this.
posted by drezdn at 3:13 PM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
People need to stop citing Rounders as the sport that led to baseball, clearly it was this.
posted by drezdn at 3:13 PM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
At first glance this seems like an odd but pretty fair way for couples to settle marital disputes, but apparently the loser of the combat was often then put to death. This would be a bit much for any relationship to weather.
I suppose that depends on your situation, but yeah I could see that.
posted by some loser at 3:24 PM on January 31, 2016
As someone who, on a pretty regular basis, works with individuals that are in abusive relationships/situations, sometimes physically abusive, I'm having a difficult time finding the humor in this.
posted by HuronBob at 3:28 PM on January 31, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by HuronBob at 3:28 PM on January 31, 2016 [23 favorites]
We've done this before but just for our own amusement. And I'm healing up quite nicely, thank you...
posted by jim in austin at 3:40 PM on January 31, 2016
posted by jim in austin at 3:40 PM on January 31, 2016
Makes you wonder what they'd be fighting about that made death an acceptable outcome.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:45 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Omnomnom at 3:45 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Makes you wonder what they'd be fighting about that made death an acceptable outcome.
The toilet seat...
posted by jim in austin at 3:55 PM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
The toilet seat...
posted by jim in austin at 3:55 PM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]
Makes you wonder what they'd be fighting about that made death an acceptable outcome.
Not me. People don't reason their way into unreasonable positions like this. Anybody who's ever witnessed how a playground fight takes shape knows all it takes sometimes is trumped up sleights and simple misunderstandings to get to this kind of outcome once you get a bloodthirsty mob in the mix.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:00 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not me. People don't reason their way into unreasonable positions like this. Anybody who's ever witnessed how a playground fight takes shape knows all it takes sometimes is trumped up sleights and simple misunderstandings to get to this kind of outcome once you get a bloodthirsty mob in the mix.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:00 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
J. Huizinga, in Homo ludens, mentions the judicial duel, in which women would be given a physical (and tactical) advantage by having the man stand in a pit. But he does not say exactly when or where. (And here I'll note this is old, if not outdated scholarship, from 1944.)
He does indicate that Anglo-Saxon law didn't include the physical handicapping element.
posted by datawrangler at 4:13 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
He does indicate that Anglo-Saxon law didn't include the physical handicapping element.
posted by datawrangler at 4:13 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
My mother is coming over next weekend. I'm getting right to pit digging.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:16 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:16 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
I imagine this would be most useful for "she committed adultery!" "I did not, you ass, you just want to kill me and take my money" type situations, not fights between stable couples.
posted by corb at 4:28 PM on January 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 4:28 PM on January 31, 2016 [6 favorites]
Here's a video of some folks from the Medieval European Martial Arts Guild reenacting the scenes from Talhoffer, plus some free sparring in the format described by Talhoffer.
posted by jedicus at 5:27 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 5:27 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this strikes me as some Solomon-level confrontation escalation. If you're at the point where this seems like a valid way to air your grievance then you probably deserve whatever the outcome is. I imagine when faced with this most couples found a way to settle out of court, as it were.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:27 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:27 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am skeptical that any of this ever happened, at least in the more elaborate forms described (or at all commonly). Believing in the literal truth of random medieval scribes' accounts or images in early modern pamphlets is a short-cut to suckerdom.
posted by praemunire at 5:38 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 5:38 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
As someone who translates these texts, I have to say these are not random scribes' accounts by any means. These statutes can be found in cities' lawbooks. Your skepticism is unwarranted and puzzling.
posted by garbhoch at 6:35 PM on January 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by garbhoch at 6:35 PM on January 31, 2016 [24 favorites]
The European Medieval Martial Arts Guild gives me so much hope for humanity. That is literally the nerdiest I have seen this week and I am totally overjoyed by its existence
posted by Doleful Creature at 7:21 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Doleful Creature at 7:21 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
At first glance this seems like an odd but pretty fair way for couples to settle marital disputes, but apparently the loser of the combat was often then put to death. This would be a bit much for any relationship to weather.
On the terms of these fights, I imagine many contestants didn't need any putting to death.
posted by grobstein at 7:29 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the terms of these fights, I imagine many contestants didn't need any putting to death.
posted by grobstein at 7:29 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Makes you wonder what they'd be fighting about that made death an acceptable outcome.
Adultery is a capital crime, possibly even for the husband; domestic violence isn't necessarily legal grounds for separation and support; separating yourself from treason might also be do-or-die, though I can't think of a real case.
posted by clew at 9:44 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Adultery is a capital crime, possibly even for the husband; domestic violence isn't necessarily legal grounds for separation and support; separating yourself from treason might also be do-or-die, though I can't think of a real case.
posted by clew at 9:44 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Your skepticism is unwarranted and puzzling.
In this case you're right, but nobody ever went broke overestimating the amount of warranted skepticism on the internet.
posted by penduluum at 4:23 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
In this case you're right, but nobody ever went broke overestimating the amount of warranted skepticism on the internet.
posted by penduluum at 4:23 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
As long as they play the star trek fight music during the bout, I'm all for it.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:18 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 5:18 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
By the way, the link calls them marital duels, which is a misnomer. They are male-female duels. Most judicial duels between men and women tended to involve allegations of rape, when no one stood up to defend the woman's rights. If you can read german you can find historical accounts here: "Wolfgang Schild: Alte Gerichtsbarkeit. Vom Gottesurteil bis zum Beginn der modernen Rechtsprechung"
I know the MEMAG guys, they are friends of mine. They really go out of their way to pursue the knowledge in the Fechtbuchs.
posted by garbhoch at 6:00 AM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
I know the MEMAG guys, they are friends of mine. They really go out of their way to pursue the knowledge in the Fechtbuchs.
posted by garbhoch at 6:00 AM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
I am skeptical that any of this ever happened, at least in the more elaborate forms described (or at all commonly). Believing in the literal truth of random medieval scribes' accounts or images in early modern pamphlets is a short-cut to suckerdom.
You're telling me snail jousts and penis trees aren't real?
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:23 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
You're telling me snail jousts and penis trees aren't real?
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:23 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
These statutes can be found in cities' lawbooks.
The article is pretty thin on these references, but, regardless: you are still operating from the presumption that texts literally describe common practices. Even in modern times, have you never seen a listicle of "20 wacky laws that are still on the books?" Are you under the impression that the U.S. judicial system actually functions in the way you would conclude upon reviewing the U.S. Code with no prior knowledge of U.S. law?
Your skepticism is unwarranted and puzzling.
As an ex-historian, I find it puzzling that you don't bring skepticism to elaborate accounts of peculiar behavior embedded in texts that were produced by people who had significantly different understandings of truth and the purposes of history. When you read an ancient historian like Herodotus, do you take his accounts of the laws of foreign lands to be scholarly?
These kinds of articles can be fun to read, and, I guess, are fodder for re-enactment if that is your gig, but people probably shouldn't waste their time trying to figure out how they could possibly be literally true. On a scholarly level, it's more valuable to ask what the function of such stories was in their culture, or what views they reflected. This is not exactly a cutting-edge approach.
posted by praemunire at 10:39 AM on February 1, 2016
The article is pretty thin on these references, but, regardless: you are still operating from the presumption that texts literally describe common practices. Even in modern times, have you never seen a listicle of "20 wacky laws that are still on the books?" Are you under the impression that the U.S. judicial system actually functions in the way you would conclude upon reviewing the U.S. Code with no prior knowledge of U.S. law?
Your skepticism is unwarranted and puzzling.
As an ex-historian, I find it puzzling that you don't bring skepticism to elaborate accounts of peculiar behavior embedded in texts that were produced by people who had significantly different understandings of truth and the purposes of history. When you read an ancient historian like Herodotus, do you take his accounts of the laws of foreign lands to be scholarly?
These kinds of articles can be fun to read, and, I guess, are fodder for re-enactment if that is your gig, but people probably shouldn't waste their time trying to figure out how they could possibly be literally true. On a scholarly level, it's more valuable to ask what the function of such stories was in their culture, or what views they reflected. This is not exactly a cutting-edge approach.
posted by praemunire at 10:39 AM on February 1, 2016
Most of the illustrations from the article can been seen in the context of the Fechtbücher they come from on Wiktenauer.
Hans Talhoffer:
MS Thott.290.2º
Cod.icon. 394a
Paulus Kal:
Cgm 1507
Cod.S.554
Not in the article:
Cl. 23842
Cgm 3711
Cgm 3711 is pretty interesting because the man is standing in what appears to be a large basket instead of a pit. Also, the combatants appear to be dressed in normal clothing instead of the specialized or plain stuff that Talhoffer and Kal depict.
posted by Mister Cheese at 11:03 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hans Talhoffer:
MS Thott.290.2º
Cod.icon. 394a
Paulus Kal:
Cgm 1507
Cod.S.554
Not in the article:
Cl. 23842
Cgm 3711
Cgm 3711 is pretty interesting because the man is standing in what appears to be a large basket instead of a pit. Also, the combatants appear to be dressed in normal clothing instead of the specialized or plain stuff that Talhoffer and Kal depict.
posted by Mister Cheese at 11:03 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
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