"I want actual change, not whack-a-mole with a grandiose troll."
February 7, 2016 8:58 AM Subscribe
Feminist Lindy West writes in The Guardian about how she's experienced years of extreme online harassment from a misogynist blogger and his minions, and about why she's not particularly happy to see them receive the same treatment.
“Anonymous doxxed my family’s address. Whatever I’ve done in life, they don’t deserve to be harassed or harmed.”
I hear this argument come up a lot when shitbags like this get their comeuppance...and it's bullshit. These are the people who raised you, who formed your miserable excuse for a moral framework, who turned you loose in the world to wreak havok on the lives of others, be they women, GLBT, POC, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve whatever collateral damage spills over from your well-deserved downfall.
posted by sexyrobot at 9:42 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I hear this argument come up a lot when shitbags like this get their comeuppance...and it's bullshit. These are the people who raised you, who formed your miserable excuse for a moral framework, who turned you loose in the world to wreak havok on the lives of others, be they women, GLBT, POC, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve whatever collateral damage spills over from your well-deserved downfall.
posted by sexyrobot at 9:42 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
What matters is that we recognize that Roosh and his repellant worldview don’t exist in a vacuumBut it does. That's the problem, it exists in the vacuum of niche internet spaces that are full of self-reinforcement. For once, the bubble was burst, although I'm sure it'll be patched up soon enough. Do you know why Ed Gein went around murdering people and digging up corpses to make lampshades out of them? You could say because he was insane, and surely that was part of it, but he also didn't have anyone relatable around him to point out: "dude, that's messed up".
posted by 0cm at 9:43 AM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
It really annoys me when I see these despicable, loathsome, cretins like Roosh whimper with outrage when their own tactics are used against them. I get a sickening, but satisfying sweet thrill thinking of that scum sucking bastard experiencing some well deserved butt puckering fear. Which I guess is solid proof that Lindy West is a better human being than I will ever be.
posted by pjsky at 9:55 AM on February 7, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 9:55 AM on February 7, 2016 [26 favorites]
These are the people who raised you, who formed your miserable excuse for a moral framework, who turned you loose in the world to wreak havok on the lives of others, be they women, GLBT, POC, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve whatever collateral damage spills over from your well-deserved downfall.
We don't know a damn thing about Doosh V's familial dynamic, much less what his family members "deserve". And it always makes me furious to hear people blaming a grown man's mother for his misogynist behaviour. It's another way of expecting women to bear all the weight of misogyny, the flip side of "you must have said or done something to make him so angry" that women abused by their partners often hear. Doosh V is 36 years old. His revolting behaviour is all on him.
posted by orange swan at 9:55 AM on February 7, 2016 [226 favorites]
We don't know a damn thing about Doosh V's familial dynamic, much less what his family members "deserve". And it always makes me furious to hear people blaming a grown man's mother for his misogynist behaviour. It's another way of expecting women to bear all the weight of misogyny, the flip side of "you must have said or done something to make him so angry" that women abused by their partners often hear. Doosh V is 36 years old. His revolting behaviour is all on him.
posted by orange swan at 9:55 AM on February 7, 2016 [226 favorites]
Sure, I'd rather have wholesale societal change, too. In the meantime, ridding certain weeds of their oxygen of anonymity, while not the ideal or most just solution, attaches consequences to their acts, which isn't entirely a bad thing.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:02 AM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:02 AM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
> As far as I'm concerned, they deserve whatever collateral damage spills over from your well-deserved downfall.
So, your mom and other family are to blame for this attitude? Good to know.
posted by rtha at 10:03 AM on February 7, 2016 [62 favorites]
So, your mom and other family are to blame for this attitude? Good to know.
posted by rtha at 10:03 AM on February 7, 2016 [62 favorites]
I hear this argument come up a lot when shitbags like this get their comeuppance...and it's bullshit. These are the people who raised you, who formed your miserable excuse for a moral framework, who turned you loose in the world to wreak havok on the lives of others, be they women, GLBT, POC, whatever.
I knew I'd heard this somewhere before!
posted by escabeche at 10:04 AM on February 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
I knew I'd heard this somewhere before!
posted by escabeche at 10:04 AM on February 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
Right now, on Twitter, Roosh is crowing about his record website traffic, as though becoming an international laughingstock is some sort of victory for his movement.See also: Vox Day, Sad/Rabid Puppies
posted by JohnFromGR at 10:24 AM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm conflicted on this. It's admirable that she extends her values to everyone. And what she says is obviously right.
But: here in increasingly racist Denmark, his call for legalization of rape was used as yet another argument for the case that brown people are evil. Few people here know what Roosh is, and it was taken as an example of "Islamic Sharia Law". Showing that he is a fucked up lonely boy living with his mum could have been useful. (I didn't even realize it was Roosh, because I never clicked any links..)
posted by mumimor at 10:26 AM on February 7, 2016
But: here in increasingly racist Denmark, his call for legalization of rape was used as yet another argument for the case that brown people are evil. Few people here know what Roosh is, and it was taken as an example of "Islamic Sharia Law". Showing that he is a fucked up lonely boy living with his mum could have been useful. (I didn't even realize it was Roosh, because I never clicked any links..)
posted by mumimor at 10:26 AM on February 7, 2016
I hear this argument come up a lot when shitbags like this get their comeuppance...and it's bullshit. These are the people who raised you, who formed your miserable excuse for a moral framework, who turned you loose in the world to wreak havok on the lives of others, be they women, GLBT, POC, whatever. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve whatever collateral damage spills over from your well-deserved downfall.
Sad to see this written on mefi.
posted by huguini at 10:34 AM on February 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Sad to see this written on mefi.
posted by huguini at 10:34 AM on February 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
And it always makes me furious to hear people blaming a grown man's mother for his misogynist behaviour. It's another way of expecting women to bear all the weight of misogyny, the flip side of "you must have said or done something to make him so angry" that women abused by their partners often hear. Doosh V is 36 years old. His revolting behaviour is all on him.
quoted for motherfucking truth.
posted by palomar at 10:40 AM on February 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
quoted for motherfucking truth.
posted by palomar at 10:40 AM on February 7, 2016 [30 favorites]
Doosh V is 36 years old. His revolting behaviour is all on him.
He lives in his parents' basement, so of course the stupid shit he's doing will affect them. They could kick him out. I mean, he's 36 years old, after all.
posted by effbot at 10:54 AM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
He lives in his parents' basement, so of course the stupid shit he's doing will affect them. They could kick him out. I mean, he's 36 years old, after all.
posted by effbot at 10:54 AM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
While I agree with Lindy West that the ultimate goal is to make men better, I can't help but think that exposing the most toxic 5% of the internet population to the light is part of that process. These people have had a toxic effect far out of proportion to their numbers, and one of the ways they've been able to get away with their acts is that they've been able to operate in anonymity.
Honestly, people who commit acts like Roosh's group, or GamerGate, or 8-Chan, really need public shaming, whether they commit their acts online, or in public.
posted by happyroach at 10:56 AM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Honestly, people who commit acts like Roosh's group, or GamerGate, or 8-Chan, really need public shaming, whether they commit their acts online, or in public.
posted by happyroach at 10:56 AM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
What matters is that we recognize that Roosh and his repellant worldview don’t exist in a vacuum
But it does. That's the problem, it exists in the vacuum of niche internet spaces that are full of self-reinforcement. For once, the bubble was burst, although I'm sure it'll be patched up soon enough. ... You could say because (Ed Gein) was insane, and surely that was part of it, but he also didn't have anyone relatable around him to point out: "dude, that's messed up".
Yes and no. Trolling is all about negative reaction, and while there is a bubble of self-reinforcement, Doosh (and similar trolls) seems to go out of his way to piss people off, knowing full well that he is baiting people. I seriously do not think it's a matter of not knowing right from wrong; it's a matter of negative attention-seeking with the added bonus of being able to play the silenced martyr when they get any backlash.
Have you ever had a conflict with an irrational abusive person? They will bait and bait and bait and provoke until they get a response from you, even following you as you walk away ("How dare you walk away! Don't walk away!") and then when you lose it from exasperation, they say "how can you be so cruel to me! Why are you abusing me?" It puts them in the victim position so they can justify their behavior, which is otherwise unjustifiable. And from what I've read about MRA & PUAs, they see themselves as at war with women who would otherwise be oppressing them. They will probably always view the trolling and backlash to trolling as a necessary conflict, a fight for their rights. Plus it's clear that they *love* the fight, just as trolls always do. They live for the fight, so anyone saying "Dude that's wrong" is just fodder for more trolling and Internet Fun.
And if you're an angry, alienated person who can't get positive attention in any sphere (like Lindy's example of the vlogger), like a child, you will go for the negative attention. Also as a derail, many psycopathic serial killers, even clearly insane ones like Dahmer, know full well that people disapprove -- that's why they go to great lengths to hide things. They just get off on what they're doing, what they feel compelled to do. I really don't think a voice of reason saying to Ed Gein "Hey, yeah, human lampshades bro? What's up with that?' would really have stopped his psychopathic impulses. And for some, if not many, psychopaths, doing wrong things and rebelling against basic morals is half of their "fun".
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:03 AM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
But it does. That's the problem, it exists in the vacuum of niche internet spaces that are full of self-reinforcement. For once, the bubble was burst, although I'm sure it'll be patched up soon enough. ... You could say because (Ed Gein) was insane, and surely that was part of it, but he also didn't have anyone relatable around him to point out: "dude, that's messed up".
Yes and no. Trolling is all about negative reaction, and while there is a bubble of self-reinforcement, Doosh (and similar trolls) seems to go out of his way to piss people off, knowing full well that he is baiting people. I seriously do not think it's a matter of not knowing right from wrong; it's a matter of negative attention-seeking with the added bonus of being able to play the silenced martyr when they get any backlash.
Have you ever had a conflict with an irrational abusive person? They will bait and bait and bait and provoke until they get a response from you, even following you as you walk away ("How dare you walk away! Don't walk away!") and then when you lose it from exasperation, they say "how can you be so cruel to me! Why are you abusing me?" It puts them in the victim position so they can justify their behavior, which is otherwise unjustifiable. And from what I've read about MRA & PUAs, they see themselves as at war with women who would otherwise be oppressing them. They will probably always view the trolling and backlash to trolling as a necessary conflict, a fight for their rights. Plus it's clear that they *love* the fight, just as trolls always do. They live for the fight, so anyone saying "Dude that's wrong" is just fodder for more trolling and Internet Fun.
And if you're an angry, alienated person who can't get positive attention in any sphere (like Lindy's example of the vlogger), like a child, you will go for the negative attention. Also as a derail, many psycopathic serial killers, even clearly insane ones like Dahmer, know full well that people disapprove -- that's why they go to great lengths to hide things. They just get off on what they're doing, what they feel compelled to do. I really don't think a voice of reason saying to Ed Gein "Hey, yeah, human lampshades bro? What's up with that?' would really have stopped his psychopathic impulses. And for some, if not many, psychopaths, doing wrong things and rebelling against basic morals is half of their "fun".
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:03 AM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I feel like we need to find a way for law enforcement departments to profit from arresting and prosecuting these serial harassers so they would actually do something.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 11:07 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by LastOfHisKind at 11:07 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
As much as I relish the idea of Dooshbags getting their just reward and payback, Ms. West is right when she takes the higher ground. She's right not only ethically but strategically. She must have the patience and endurance of a hundred people, because I'd be kicking Doosh's ass, despite all my noble proclaimations of taking the high road. That takes a really strong person.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:15 AM on February 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:15 AM on February 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
GospelofWesleyWillis, I was not referring to trolling or trying to get negative attention, but rather to these fringe online communities that share the same belief system, where they share common experiences and obtain validation and reinforcement only from their peers, without any outside views to counter them. I was somewhat joking about Ed Gein, although, he was a product of being raised by a lunatic and being left alone in the world without anyone to offer a reality check. If you want a more common example, when people are isolated from society for a long time, they often "lose their minds", in that their perspectives can be warped significantly. Contact with others and, in this case, with other people's views is important to maintain a balanced world view. This is true not just for misogynists, but also radical feminists, racists, eating disorder advocates, etc.
posted by 0cm at 11:20 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by 0cm at 11:20 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd question whether public shaming makes anyone better. Remember this thread about a pair of coffeeshop owners from Asheville, NC, who were exposed as a pair of pick up artists who preened themselves on their conquests online? The two guys lost their clientele and become social pariahs overnight, and they claim they've grown, but careful reading of what they say reveals that they are still very far from self-awareness.
The value in exposés of misogynists such as those two guys and Doosh V lies in making life a little safer for women, because they are better informed about who and what to avoid, and also in confronting those in denial about whether misogyny actually exists or how bad it is with definitive proof that, yes, it does exist, and yes, it is incredibly pervasive and ugly. But as to changing those misogynists who are shamed... I'm skeptical that they'll ever really get it. When it comes to bigotry and abusive behaviour, some people may be beyond redemption. Human nature being what it is, in our world there will always a be certain percentage of people who, like the members of the Flat Earth Society, cherish their dysfunctional delusions and take pleasure and pride in them, and absolutely no amount of reason or evidence or ridicule will ever convince them that they're wrong.
posted by orange swan at 11:21 AM on February 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
The value in exposés of misogynists such as those two guys and Doosh V lies in making life a little safer for women, because they are better informed about who and what to avoid, and also in confronting those in denial about whether misogyny actually exists or how bad it is with definitive proof that, yes, it does exist, and yes, it is incredibly pervasive and ugly. But as to changing those misogynists who are shamed... I'm skeptical that they'll ever really get it. When it comes to bigotry and abusive behaviour, some people may be beyond redemption. Human nature being what it is, in our world there will always a be certain percentage of people who, like the members of the Flat Earth Society, cherish their dysfunctional delusions and take pleasure and pride in them, and absolutely no amount of reason or evidence or ridicule will ever convince them that they're wrong.
posted by orange swan at 11:21 AM on February 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
This is true not just for misogynists, but also radical feminists, racists, eating disorder advocates, etc.
0cm, did you seriously just class radical feminists with misogynists, racists, and eating disorder advocates in a string of examples you were providing of people who have, in your view, "'lost their minds' in that their perspectives can be warped significantly"?
posted by orange swan at 11:35 AM on February 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
0cm, did you seriously just class radical feminists with misogynists, racists, and eating disorder advocates in a string of examples you were providing of people who have, in your view, "'lost their minds' in that their perspectives can be warped significantly"?
posted by orange swan at 11:35 AM on February 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
Ocm, I know what you mean in that toxic ideas fester better in the dark rather to these fringe online communities that share the same belief system, where they share common experiences and obtain validation and reinforcement only from their peers, without any outside views to counter them
But don't you think that's part of their Us Vs. Them mentality where outside views not only don't matter at all, but they are just fodder for more trolling because that's fun for them. Perhaps we are are thinking along the same line, in that once their alienated mentality is set and they have some reinforcement, it's almost too late for outside voices because then that's just their Noble Struggle Against An Unfair World.
In another thread about the PUA artist in Asheville Oregon, there was a big outcry and public shaming, but the guys in question only changed superficially; they ended up blaming the community for not understanding them and taking care of them even when they insulted women in the community. They're still, according to one poster, the same people but they changed their shtick superficially. They totally maintained their Victim of Women mentality, even when a man (the Contra dancer guy!) was aggressively challenging them.
So I don't know what the solution is from a pragmatic standpoint; obviously, you don't want to do nothing at all but playing into their victim stance seems like you're just feeding the beast. I guess it just takes a very cool head to explain to them that it's wrong, but then not reacting with outrage also feels like condoning and allowing the toxic ideas to spread. I like Lindy West's ideals, but I'm not sure they work in the real world either. I don't have a good solution.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:43 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
But don't you think that's part of their Us Vs. Them mentality where outside views not only don't matter at all, but they are just fodder for more trolling because that's fun for them. Perhaps we are are thinking along the same line, in that once their alienated mentality is set and they have some reinforcement, it's almost too late for outside voices because then that's just their Noble Struggle Against An Unfair World.
In another thread about the PUA artist in Asheville Oregon, there was a big outcry and public shaming, but the guys in question only changed superficially; they ended up blaming the community for not understanding them and taking care of them even when they insulted women in the community. They're still, according to one poster, the same people but they changed their shtick superficially. They totally maintained their Victim of Women mentality, even when a man (the Contra dancer guy!) was aggressively challenging them.
So I don't know what the solution is from a pragmatic standpoint; obviously, you don't want to do nothing at all but playing into their victim stance seems like you're just feeding the beast. I guess it just takes a very cool head to explain to them that it's wrong, but then not reacting with outrage also feels like condoning and allowing the toxic ideas to spread. I like Lindy West's ideals, but I'm not sure they work in the real world either. I don't have a good solution.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:43 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
ha! Orange swan you're psychic and fast!
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:45 AM on February 7, 2016
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:45 AM on February 7, 2016
Perfection is not the only goal. A safer community, and it seems like that's what happened in Asheville, is an excellent and worthwhile goal.
I think you're right, internet fraud detective. I guess some of us with an idealistic psychological bent think we can change these people, and I think that was West's goal. That's probably really not realistic and is probably a massive waste of emotional labor. The Asheville thread was a good example of how just protecting the community is the best you can hope for, and let them work out their own bullshit on their own time.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:54 AM on February 7, 2016
I think you're right, internet fraud detective. I guess some of us with an idealistic psychological bent think we can change these people, and I think that was West's goal. That's probably really not realistic and is probably a massive waste of emotional labor. The Asheville thread was a good example of how just protecting the community is the best you can hope for, and let them work out their own bullshit on their own time.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:54 AM on February 7, 2016
Ocm, did you seriously just class radical feminists with misogynists, racists, and eating disorder advocates in a string examples of people who have "lost their minds" and adopted a "warped perspective"?posted by 0cm at 11:55 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]orange swan, are you saying they haven't? The one thing they have in common is ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves and/or other people. I could have given more examples, but if you want to find fringe, radical communities such as these, you can probably google the information. In any case, I don't like extremists.
GospelofWesleyWillis, change can happen, but it doesn't happen overnight, it can take generations. But I certainly think that in order for any change to happen, people need to be exposed to the other side; men who have a more positive outlook on life need to be part of the discussion and engage the radicals. When people speak about gender or race inequality in certain spaces, the lack of representation of a given group always comes up. People need relatable examples in order to move forward. It's a lot easier for a (wo)man to listen to the experiences of another (wo)man.
No apologies needed, IFDSSN9; you make a good point. I think I do a lot of emotional labor in trying to empathize with abusive people in hopes of changing them in a personal and wider scale. I think it's excellent to point out that that goal is not always realistic or wise. I doubt I'm the only woman who's been brainwashed into thinking we have to help *everybody*, no matter how abusive they are.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:57 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 11:57 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ocm, did you seriously just class radical feminists with misogynists, racists, and eating disorder advocates in a string examples of people who have "lost their minds" and adopted a "warped perspective"?
orange swan, are you saying they haven't? The one thing they have in common is ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves and/or other people.
Ho. Lee. Shit.
posted by orange swan at 11:58 AM on February 7, 2016 [46 favorites]
orange swan, are you saying they haven't? The one thing they have in common is ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves and/or other people.
Ho. Lee. Shit.
posted by orange swan at 11:58 AM on February 7, 2016 [46 favorites]
So this Roosh guy apparently watched Magnolia and decided that emulating Tom Cruise's character was a good idea...
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 11:59 AM on February 7, 2016
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 11:59 AM on February 7, 2016
it can take generations.
yep
When people speak about gender or race inequality in certain spaces, the lack of representation of a given group always comes up. People need relatable examples in order to move forward.
yes, i agree- I think it will take the voices of other men to talk to this type of person. Like the Good Man Project; I think that's a great thing.
In the Asheville thread, some people dismissed (ContraDanceGuy)Trey's efforts, but I think he was their only hope at change.
We need more Treys and more Good Man Projects to counter this crap; that's probably the best solution.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:01 PM on February 7, 2016
yep
When people speak about gender or race inequality in certain spaces, the lack of representation of a given group always comes up. People need relatable examples in order to move forward.
yes, i agree- I think it will take the voices of other men to talk to this type of person. Like the Good Man Project; I think that's a great thing.
In the Asheville thread, some people dismissed (ContraDanceGuy)Trey's efforts, but I think he was their only hope at change.
We need more Treys and more Good Man Projects to counter this crap; that's probably the best solution.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:01 PM on February 7, 2016
Do you mean ED advocates, as in pro-eating disorder folx? That would make way more sense in context.
Otherwise yes, doxing is basically carpet-bombing and wrong.
posted by Braeburn at 12:01 PM on February 7, 2016
Otherwise yes, doxing is basically carpet-bombing and wrong.
posted by Braeburn at 12:01 PM on February 7, 2016
Perfection is not the only goal. A safer community, and it seems like that's what happened in Asheville, is an excellent and worthwhile goal.
internet fraud detective squad, station number 9, I didn't have a problem with anything you said, and I think some of it was very apt, especially the sentence above. I do want to reach everyone, and sometimes lose sight of the fact that perfection shouldn't be the goal.
posted by orange swan at 12:02 PM on February 7, 2016
internet fraud detective squad, station number 9, I didn't have a problem with anything you said, and I think some of it was very apt, especially the sentence above. I do want to reach everyone, and sometimes lose sight of the fact that perfection shouldn't be the goal.
posted by orange swan at 12:02 PM on February 7, 2016
Severe social punishment can serve as a deterrent, and send a strong message about socially unacceptable behavior and speech. I think that that has substantial value, even if it doesn't come close to touching the psyche of these people.
Winning hearts and minds is great and all, but sometimes you have to settle for changing social norms. You get the same argument often with respect to anti-racist work, that racists won't stop being racists just because they're shamed into stopping racist behavior. It's true, and yet, the shaming means that blacks don't have to put up with their racist behavior. If you're holding out for the tactic that will persuade my racist uncle who literally homeschooled his kids because he considered the local Catholic school too liberal to see "those people" as fully human, you'll be holding out for a lonnnnnnnng time. In the meantime, I'll be glad if he doesn't feel he can get away with saying shitty things to the single black mom just trying to manage her kids in the supermarket.
(I do understand the compassionate impulse animating the argument, but, as a society, we have awfully blunt tools. I hope my uncle's priest is working on his soul, but he can do and say things in a way and with an authority that, I don't know, DeRay McKesson can't.)
posted by praemunire at 12:12 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Winning hearts and minds is great and all, but sometimes you have to settle for changing social norms. You get the same argument often with respect to anti-racist work, that racists won't stop being racists just because they're shamed into stopping racist behavior. It's true, and yet, the shaming means that blacks don't have to put up with their racist behavior. If you're holding out for the tactic that will persuade my racist uncle who literally homeschooled his kids because he considered the local Catholic school too liberal to see "those people" as fully human, you'll be holding out for a lonnnnnnnng time. In the meantime, I'll be glad if he doesn't feel he can get away with saying shitty things to the single black mom just trying to manage her kids in the supermarket.
(I do understand the compassionate impulse animating the argument, but, as a society, we have awfully blunt tools. I hope my uncle's priest is working on his soul, but he can do and say things in a way and with an authority that, I don't know, DeRay McKesson can't.)
posted by praemunire at 12:12 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ho. Lee. Shit.That's kind of a non-reply. But I'd love to see you explain how radical feminism (and by the way, there's a difference between mainstream feminism and batshit crazy feminism) is different from any other hate speech. So, by all means, do expose me to a different point of view! Maybe I'll learn something new today.
Do you mean ED advocates, as in pro-eating disorder folx? That would make way more sense in context.Yes, that's what I mean. Sorry if it wasn't clear, I didn't mean people who suffer from eating disorders or even communities for people with eating disorders, but rather how some of those communities push people, who could use some help overcoming their problems, into destructive behaviors.
We need more Treys and more Good Man Projects to counter this crap; that's probably the best solution.That's pretty much what I believe.
posted by 0cm at 12:13 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree with West in principle, but I'm finding it incredibly hard to muster any sympathy for Roosh.
For anyone after more info on him, see We Hunted The Mammoth's extensive archives.
Also, there's Reggie Yates' documentary Men At War on iPlayer.
It's not a great doc, but there's a very disturbing and revealing scene in which Roosh just sort of assumes Yates has had non-consensual sex with women in the past, and seems incapable of understanding Yates' horrified reaction. It's as if he sees rape as something that happens to a man after they've raped a woman, if that makes sense. As if rape is a standard form of sexual contact for men, and it only becomes a problem if a woman subsequently declares that she's been raped - at one point, Roosh insists that if only Yates would 'examine every thrust', he'd realise that he's raped women in the past. Prior to this, I'd seen Roosh as a terrible internet dickhead cashing in on alt-right misogyny, but after seeing him interviewed I really think he's a serious danger to women.
The one thing they have in common is ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves and/or other people.
This is… a very odd thing to say. What do you think radical feminism is? How are radical feminists harming themselves and/or other people?
posted by jack_mo at 12:13 PM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
For anyone after more info on him, see We Hunted The Mammoth's extensive archives.
Also, there's Reggie Yates' documentary Men At War on iPlayer.
It's not a great doc, but there's a very disturbing and revealing scene in which Roosh just sort of assumes Yates has had non-consensual sex with women in the past, and seems incapable of understanding Yates' horrified reaction. It's as if he sees rape as something that happens to a man after they've raped a woman, if that makes sense. As if rape is a standard form of sexual contact for men, and it only becomes a problem if a woman subsequently declares that she's been raped - at one point, Roosh insists that if only Yates would 'examine every thrust', he'd realise that he's raped women in the past. Prior to this, I'd seen Roosh as a terrible internet dickhead cashing in on alt-right misogyny, but after seeing him interviewed I really think he's a serious danger to women.
The one thing they have in common is ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves and/or other people.
This is… a very odd thing to say. What do you think radical feminism is? How are radical feminists harming themselves and/or other people?
posted by jack_mo at 12:13 PM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
are you saying they haven't?
Pretty sure they are, and they're right.
The one thing they have in common is ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves and/or other people.
I'm not sure how radical feminists as a whole have ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves or others. The core belief of radical feminism is that the structure of the world we live in is based on control over women, of which there is plentiful evidence. There's some very small subgroups (like TERFs) that do ostracize and harm, but they're all based on punching down at other groups. To compare radical feminism to the enormous amounts of hate and violence that misogynists regularly display (and have acceptance and power within every part of our culture and politics) is completely false.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:14 PM on February 7, 2016 [45 favorites]
Pretty sure they are, and they're right.
The one thing they have in common is ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves and/or other people.
I'm not sure how radical feminists as a whole have ostracizing beliefs that harm themselves or others. The core belief of radical feminism is that the structure of the world we live in is based on control over women, of which there is plentiful evidence. There's some very small subgroups (like TERFs) that do ostracize and harm, but they're all based on punching down at other groups. To compare radical feminism to the enormous amounts of hate and violence that misogynists regularly display (and have acceptance and power within every part of our culture and politics) is completely false.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:14 PM on February 7, 2016 [45 favorites]
That's kind of a non-reply. But I'd love to see you explain how radical feminism (and by the way, there's a difference between mainstream feminism and batshit crazy feminism) is different from any other hate speech. So, by all means, do expose me to a different point of view! Maybe I'll learn something new today.
From Wikipedia:
posted by zombieflanders at 12:18 PM on February 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
From Wikipedia:
Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that calls for a radical reordering of society in which male supremacy is eliminated in all social and economic contexts. Radical feminists seek to abolish patriarchy by challenging existing social norms and institutions, rather than through a purely political process. This includes challenging the notion of traditional gender roles, opposing the sexual objectification of women, and raising public awareness about rape and violence against women.I have no idea why you consider that "batshit crazy feminism," or what "mainstream feminism" is. I also wonder how you can even begin to compare the vitriol, scope, and impact of their actions to misogyny.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:18 PM on February 7, 2016 [42 favorites]
Mod note: 0cm, you're getting pretty far afield with this "justify radical feminism to me using my highly idiosyncratic definitions" derail. You've made your point, using pretty aggressive language; it hasn't been well-received; and it's time for you to drop it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 12:19 PM on February 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 12:19 PM on February 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
0cm - I can't think of a way to say this without sounding like a patronising arse, but you might want to read the Wikipedia entry on radical feminism. It really, really sounds like you don't understand what radical feminism is.
posted by jack_mo at 12:26 PM on February 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by jack_mo at 12:26 PM on February 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
0cm, you're pointing to one woman who was a paranoid schizophrenic, and who had no followers and no real influence on feminist thought, as a representative example of a radical feminist? Yeah, you don't know what radical feminism is.
posted by orange swan at 12:30 PM on February 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 12:30 PM on February 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think West's larger point is getting missed here. Exposing this one guy and making him a scapegoat is not enough, because it ignores the poisoned society he grew up in. She doesn't want us to smugly pat ourselves on the back about him getting his comeuppance while ignoring people in our own circle who crack rape jokes, or push women's boundaries, and so on.
She is not being saintly, she is actually very practical in stating, yeah, here's one guy that got caught, great. There's lots more where he came from. We created that reality and we need to fix it.
posted by emjaybee at 1:01 PM on February 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
She is not being saintly, she is actually very practical in stating, yeah, here's one guy that got caught, great. There's lots more where he came from. We created that reality and we need to fix it.
posted by emjaybee at 1:01 PM on February 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
there's a difference between mainstream feminism and batshit crazy feminism
Yes, because "mainstream feminism" hasn't accomplished diddly in the 40-50 years since it was first defined. In fact, back when it was first used, the word "feminism" was synonymous with "batshit crazy" until it became "safe" and NOT because it had accomplished any of its goals of equality, but because those goals had been mostly abandoned in favor of 'incremental improvement' that does fucking little.
I have become a "batshit crazy feminist" myself in spite of (or maybe because of) being a Straight White Male, because I have come to realize just how much privilege 'my tribe' has and how shitty that has made us and the society we rule. I am totally ashamed of my privilege to the point of believing that targeting people LIKE ME for abuse is totally justified even if it affects me. I've had 60 years in my privileged position... I don't know if I could survive long without it, but I want to live in a society where I can find out.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:05 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, because "mainstream feminism" hasn't accomplished diddly in the 40-50 years since it was first defined. In fact, back when it was first used, the word "feminism" was synonymous with "batshit crazy" until it became "safe" and NOT because it had accomplished any of its goals of equality, but because those goals had been mostly abandoned in favor of 'incremental improvement' that does fucking little.
I have become a "batshit crazy feminist" myself in spite of (or maybe because of) being a Straight White Male, because I have come to realize just how much privilege 'my tribe' has and how shitty that has made us and the society we rule. I am totally ashamed of my privilege to the point of believing that targeting people LIKE ME for abuse is totally justified even if it affects me. I've had 60 years in my privileged position... I don't know if I could survive long without it, but I want to live in a society where I can find out.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:05 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
you're pointing to one woman who was a paranoid schizophrenic
I can't see the comment, but I wondered previously if ocm was referring to Valerie Solanas, who is to feminism what the Unabomber is to environmentalists; that is, an outlier with serious psychological issues who glommed onto a political cause as part of their rage and social alienation. They were not part of any significant, real world activism (unless you count the bombs and shooting Andy Warhol, and most people would not)
If your (ocms's) point was about extremists, then yes, Solanas probably fits the bill, but that's not what most people think of when they think of radical feminism. I think you would've done better just to say 'extremists'. Your comment did piss me off but I wanted to address the central issue first, but now, yeah. Not the average radical there.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 1:08 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't see the comment, but I wondered previously if ocm was referring to Valerie Solanas, who is to feminism what the Unabomber is to environmentalists; that is, an outlier with serious psychological issues who glommed onto a political cause as part of their rage and social alienation. They were not part of any significant, real world activism (unless you count the bombs and shooting Andy Warhol, and most people would not)
If your (ocms's) point was about extremists, then yes, Solanas probably fits the bill, but that's not what most people think of when they think of radical feminism. I think you would've done better just to say 'extremists'. Your comment did piss me off but I wanted to address the central issue first, but now, yeah. Not the average radical there.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 1:08 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
For the love of god, maybe someone who would bring up radical feminists and want to debate how bad they are in response to this post is not worth engaging.
posted by catchingsignals at 1:11 PM on February 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by catchingsignals at 1:11 PM on February 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
She is not being saintly, she is actually very practical in stating, yeah, here's one guy that got caught, great. There's lots more where he came from. We created that reality and we need to fix it.
Yes. Earlier today, Lindy West retweeted this tweet from someone else that illustrates the point nicely:
"Job's done" he said after tweeting "Roosh V is bad" - then he got defensive about not hiring women & watched 5 YouTubes about "FEMINAZIS".
My dad would readily agree that Doosh V is vile. But he makes jokes about "Feminazis" all the time, sits back and leaves it up to my mother to do 100% of the housekeeping, and refuses to make any apology for the fact that he not only allowed but egged on my much older two brothers' abuse of me and my little sister when we were young girls... and I could go on to give a much larger number of examples of such behaviour from him. It's not enough to condemn the worst examples of abuse and bigotry. You also have to do the work of educating and correcting yourself to make sure you aren't part of the problem.
posted by orange swan at 1:19 PM on February 7, 2016 [32 favorites]
Yes. Earlier today, Lindy West retweeted this tweet from someone else that illustrates the point nicely:
"Job's done" he said after tweeting "Roosh V is bad" - then he got defensive about not hiring women & watched 5 YouTubes about "FEMINAZIS".
My dad would readily agree that Doosh V is vile. But he makes jokes about "Feminazis" all the time, sits back and leaves it up to my mother to do 100% of the housekeeping, and refuses to make any apology for the fact that he not only allowed but egged on my much older two brothers' abuse of me and my little sister when we were young girls... and I could go on to give a much larger number of examples of such behaviour from him. It's not enough to condemn the worst examples of abuse and bigotry. You also have to do the work of educating and correcting yourself to make sure you aren't part of the problem.
posted by orange swan at 1:19 PM on February 7, 2016 [32 favorites]
My dad would readily agree that Doosh V is vile. But he makes jokes about "Feminazis" all the time
yes..*sigh* as if we need more shitty fallout, some guys can say "At least I'm not that guy, therefore I'm enlightened. What are these bitches still complaining about?" ugh
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 1:24 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
yes..*sigh* as if we need more shitty fallout, some guys can say "At least I'm not that guy, therefore I'm enlightened. What are these bitches still complaining about?" ugh
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 1:24 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
He lives in his parents' basement
What's the deal with American families that when their children reach adulthood, they either push them out of the nest or make them live in the basement.
Do you have a shortage of bedrooms over there or something?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:27 PM on February 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
What's the deal with American families that when their children reach adulthood, they either push them out of the nest or make them live in the basement.
Do you have a shortage of bedrooms over there or something?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:27 PM on February 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
PeterMcDermott, in the cases I've known of people who lived in their parents' basement, it's a matter of the adult children moving into the basement voluntarily, so that they can feel like they have their own place and enjoy advantages such as a separate entrance, a bathroom that no one else uses, more privacy, more square footage, freedom to make more noise, etc. As documented by The Onion.
posted by orange swan at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Ah, OK. That makes sense. I guess it'd be somewhat embarrassing to be a thirty-odd year old PUA and bringing home your latest conquest to the bedroom next to the one mum and dad are trying to sleep in.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:34 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:34 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I am totally ashamed of my privilege to the point of believing that targeting people LIKE ME for abuse is totally justified even if it affects me."
I'm with Lindy on this one -- I don't think it's ever justified to target people for abuse because you perceive them to be privileged. Privilege is a structural problem, not an individual sin.
posted by xris at 1:53 PM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm with Lindy on this one -- I don't think it's ever justified to target people for abuse because you perceive them to be privileged. Privilege is a structural problem, not an individual sin.
posted by xris at 1:53 PM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I am impressed at her compassion. It is beyond me.
If someone lit Roosh on fire, I would bring marshmallows.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:02 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
If someone lit Roosh on fire, I would bring marshmallows.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:02 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
> Doosh
I don't want to be that guy, but let me ask all y'all who use "Doosh"/douche as an insult to etymologize just a bit. If you are making a pro-woman, anti-sexism statement, I don't think it really helps to use this particular word. As I read it, the reason "douche" is an insult is basically "the only thing grosser than a nasty vag is a VAG CLEANER-OUTER amirite!!"
posted by bgribble at 2:03 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't want to be that guy, but let me ask all y'all who use "Doosh"/douche as an insult to etymologize just a bit. If you are making a pro-woman, anti-sexism statement, I don't think it really helps to use this particular word. As I read it, the reason "douche" is an insult is basically "the only thing grosser than a nasty vag is a VAG CLEANER-OUTER amirite!!"
posted by bgribble at 2:03 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like misogyny, douching is a not only completely unnecessary but harmful practice, one that has been foisted on women by those who wish women to believe their vaginas are in need of strenuous cleansing for their own gain. Calling the misogynist blogger in question Doosh V is therefore perfectly apropos.
posted by orange swan at 2:11 PM on February 7, 2016 [47 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 2:11 PM on February 7, 2016 [47 favorites]
yea, a douche can be easily classified as "something a woman should never allow into her nether regions" so it does kinda work.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:20 PM on February 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 2:20 PM on February 7, 2016 [18 favorites]
A douche, in every sense of the word, is a useless, often harmful tool that exists because of lies and misinformation.
posted by dazed_one at 2:20 PM on February 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by dazed_one at 2:20 PM on February 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
I am impressed at her compassion. It is beyond me.
Well, she got married last year to this guy. Don't know if there's a connection, but marriage tends to mellow people out a bit.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:03 PM on February 7, 2016
Well, she got married last year to this guy. Don't know if there's a connection, but marriage tends to mellow people out a bit.
posted by IndigoJones at 3:03 PM on February 7, 2016
Lindy West has such a grasp of social issues that she looks beyond individual bad behaviour to the larger societal problem. In her 'The 'Dear Fat People' video is tired, cruel and lazy – but I still fight for the woman who made it' opinion piece from September 2015, she shows the same level of compassion for the woman who made a video attacking fat people.
posted by orange swan at 3:18 PM on February 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 3:18 PM on February 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I don't want to be that guy, but let me ask all y'all who use "Doosh"/douche as an insult to etymologize just a bit.
previously on metatalk...
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 4:52 PM on February 7, 2016
previously on metatalk...
posted by AElfwine Evenstar at 4:52 PM on February 7, 2016
Do you have a shortage of bedrooms over there or something?
It seems like in the USA, adults over 18-21 are pretty much 'expected' to live on their own away from their parents house. This is changing since a lot of millennials are returning to their parents homes post-college due to difficulties in finding jobs, but generally speaking, "living in Mom's basement" is a way to imply "loser". Because of all the anger about "Roosh" and his rhetoric, a lot of people are delighted to find that he apparently lives with his parents at age 36. Schadenfreude, etc.
posted by theorique at 5:28 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It seems like in the USA, adults over 18-21 are pretty much 'expected' to live on their own away from their parents house. This is changing since a lot of millennials are returning to their parents homes post-college due to difficulties in finding jobs, but generally speaking, "living in Mom's basement" is a way to imply "loser". Because of all the anger about "Roosh" and his rhetoric, a lot of people are delighted to find that he apparently lives with his parents at age 36. Schadenfreude, etc.
posted by theorique at 5:28 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
As someone who lived with his mom well into adulthood, I'm not super keen on making jokes about how much of a loser that makes this guy, but maybe that's just me.
posted by teponaztli at 5:32 PM on February 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by teponaztli at 5:32 PM on February 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
The basement jokes really aren't anything against those who live with their parents out of economic necessity. This is more about Doosh V's hypocritical misogyny and ego, and the "image" that he's tried so hard to project being revealed to be nothing more than a pathetic smoke screen. The guy who considers women to be worthless garbage to be used and discarded, claims to be a world-travelling alpha lothario and successful writer, and who posts photos of himself standing in front of a BMW with fists full of cash, is in fact financially dependent on his mom. He was photographed answering the door of his mother's house in a sweat-stained t-shirt. It's schadenfreudelicious.
Or as I saw on Twitter: "I want to fly around the world and systematically arrange floodlights so "ROOSH LIVES IN HIS MOM'S BASEMENT LOL" is visible from space."
posted by orange swan at 5:43 PM on February 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Or as I saw on Twitter: "I want to fly around the world and systematically arrange floodlights so "ROOSH LIVES IN HIS MOM'S BASEMENT LOL" is visible from space."
posted by orange swan at 5:43 PM on February 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Often, the "mom's basement" jab is used as an insult where someone is putting on airs. It's not as though living with ones parents is objectively bad or anything - lots of people do it world-wide, especially in places with expensive real estate and/or strong inter generational family ties. The US is probably in the minority in expecting that adult but unmarried children are "supposed" to move out of their parents house.
Curiously, there is an earlier article on Roosh's site about this very thing: living with your parents (CW: it's from Rooshv.com. Language, subject matter, and attitudes are what you would expect from him.)
posted by theorique at 6:18 PM on February 7, 2016
Curiously, there is an earlier article on Roosh's site about this very thing: living with your parents (CW: it's from Rooshv.com. Language, subject matter, and attitudes are what you would expect from him.)
posted by theorique at 6:18 PM on February 7, 2016
I think you're right, internet fraud detective. I guess some of us with an idealistic psychological bent think we can change these people, and I think that was West's goal. That's probably really not realistic and is probably a massive waste of emotional labor.
That's a fair point. However, for me it's not about trying to change people. Instead, it's about the kind of person I want to be. I can't condone a dox attack on someone's family, nor can I take part in it, because I don't want to be a person who takes part in such behavior. I don't believe in vengeance, as sweet as it may be. However, I do think social pressure against misogyny is beneficial, just not when it turns into cruelty. I don't think there's anything to gain from destroying people, especially in that it would turn me into someone who destroys people.
Just to be clear, I have no sympathy for Roosh, but I try to cultivate compassion for all beings as part of my own spiritual path and strongly held personal beliefs- people like him test my ability, but that is my lesson to learn, not his or anyone else's. If Roosh's behavior turns me into something I don't want to be, that's my own fault, and in that sense he really would have power over me. I refuse to let him turn me against my own better nature, against my own spiritual path, to become a lesser person. It wouldn't serve me well, nor the people I would want to help fight misogyny, cruelty and suffering.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:42 PM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
That's a fair point. However, for me it's not about trying to change people. Instead, it's about the kind of person I want to be. I can't condone a dox attack on someone's family, nor can I take part in it, because I don't want to be a person who takes part in such behavior. I don't believe in vengeance, as sweet as it may be. However, I do think social pressure against misogyny is beneficial, just not when it turns into cruelty. I don't think there's anything to gain from destroying people, especially in that it would turn me into someone who destroys people.
Just to be clear, I have no sympathy for Roosh, but I try to cultivate compassion for all beings as part of my own spiritual path and strongly held personal beliefs- people like him test my ability, but that is my lesson to learn, not his or anyone else's. If Roosh's behavior turns me into something I don't want to be, that's my own fault, and in that sense he really would have power over me. I refuse to let him turn me against my own better nature, against my own spiritual path, to become a lesser person. It wouldn't serve me well, nor the people I would want to help fight misogyny, cruelty and suffering.
posted by krinklyfig at 6:42 PM on February 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Commenters and tweeters on his side have since claimed that he was just visiting his mom, and really lives in Eastern Europe, where he has an apartment because "he likes the girls better there." I report this merely as I have seen it. I am certain that a man with as many options as he has quickly tired of his girlfriend in Canada.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:54 PM on February 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 6:54 PM on February 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Popping back in again to call it: the next big move for Roosh is to get religion. Any one of the Abrahamic variety will do. He will ostentatiously apologize to women in general for his sins, and blame feminism for his anger. He will marry a girl in her early twenties who was raised to be courted, and praise her publicly at every chance. Then he can proceed to espouse his beliefs and proceed largely as before.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:25 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 7:25 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Would you be referring to Doosh's unsubstantiated Canadian girlfriend, Countess Elena?
posted by orange swan at 7:25 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 7:25 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Popping back in again to call it: the next big move for Roosh is to get religion.
Can it please be one of those religions that involves being thrown into a volcano as a sacrifice to the mountain god?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:30 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can it please be one of those religions that involves being thrown into a volcano as a sacrifice to the mountain god?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:30 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
However, for me it's not about trying to change people. I can't condone a dox attack on someone's family, nor can I take part in it, because I don't want to be a person who takes part in such behavior. I don't believe in vengeance, as sweet as it may be.
Krinklyfig, I think you're assuming there are only two options here, either trying to persuade him and his followers or doxxing and stalking them. Publicly shaming does not have to involve attacks on his family members; what I was debating was whether or not public shaming was a useful tool for persuasion. I think most people here have been saying that while it may be satisfying to have him reap what he's sowed, that using his style of attack was not the preferred response. We were exploring what the most effective response for change might involve, whether that change ideally would involve him or if you could only affect the community and his influence in it.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:35 PM on February 7, 2016
Krinklyfig, I think you're assuming there are only two options here, either trying to persuade him and his followers or doxxing and stalking them. Publicly shaming does not have to involve attacks on his family members; what I was debating was whether or not public shaming was a useful tool for persuasion. I think most people here have been saying that while it may be satisfying to have him reap what he's sowed, that using his style of attack was not the preferred response. We were exploring what the most effective response for change might involve, whether that change ideally would involve him or if you could only affect the community and his influence in it.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:35 PM on February 7, 2016
However, I do think social pressure against misogyny is beneficial, just not when it turns into cruelty.
d'oh, skipped that bit, krinklyfig ---pardon. I guess it's just a matter of how you define cruelty; I don't think anyone here supports doxxing and stalking, save for the poster on the 'screw the whole family' front perhaps.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:47 PM on February 7, 2016
d'oh, skipped that bit, krinklyfig ---pardon. I guess it's just a matter of how you define cruelty; I don't think anyone here supports doxxing and stalking, save for the poster on the 'screw the whole family' front perhaps.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 7:47 PM on February 7, 2016
Often, the "mom's basement" jab is used as an insult where someone is putting on airs.
I've seen it as an insult online for years -- "you're all nerds and you all live in your mom's basement."
It always struck me as mysterious because I always assumed basement space would actually be pretty scarce. Much scarcer than spare bedrooms.
Sorry. I'll stop the basement derail now.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:52 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've seen it as an insult online for years -- "you're all nerds and you all live in your mom's basement."
It always struck me as mysterious because I always assumed basement space would actually be pretty scarce. Much scarcer than spare bedrooms.
Sorry. I'll stop the basement derail now.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:52 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think most people here have been saying that while it may be satisfying to have him reap what he's sowed, that using his style of attack was not the preferred response.
I agree in the sense I expressed before- it would make me into something I don't want, to take part in a mob-style public shaming. I think these efforts are mostly about piling on, and I'm not sure they change anything, and as Lindy West said they're not happy people, nor the actions of happy people - are my actions appropriate in that sense, as an expression of who I am, is a question I have to ask myself. However, I am not going to tell someone else their reactions aren't appropriate. As for Roosh, his behavior needs to be exposed for what it is, mostly so that the nature of his groups, meetings, MRA efforts, etc., are known long before he comes around peddling his bullshit under the radar. The official backlash against him by public officials was pretty satisfying, and I think it contributed significantly to his inability to carry out his planned tour. More sunlight is good, IMO.
What Roosh and his followers really need is healing to begin to change as individuals, although they have to want it, and there's no guarantee anyone will, nor that they would go through the difficult process of self-examination that requires. In the meantime, public exposure is helping to prevent him from doing more damage than he might otherwise. These people have tremendous amounts of shame already, which is what motivates them in unhealthy ways. Public shaming might help bring exposure, but like Lindy West, it's not something I can personally condone.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:01 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree in the sense I expressed before- it would make me into something I don't want, to take part in a mob-style public shaming. I think these efforts are mostly about piling on, and I'm not sure they change anything, and as Lindy West said they're not happy people, nor the actions of happy people - are my actions appropriate in that sense, as an expression of who I am, is a question I have to ask myself. However, I am not going to tell someone else their reactions aren't appropriate. As for Roosh, his behavior needs to be exposed for what it is, mostly so that the nature of his groups, meetings, MRA efforts, etc., are known long before he comes around peddling his bullshit under the radar. The official backlash against him by public officials was pretty satisfying, and I think it contributed significantly to his inability to carry out his planned tour. More sunlight is good, IMO.
What Roosh and his followers really need is healing to begin to change as individuals, although they have to want it, and there's no guarantee anyone will, nor that they would go through the difficult process of self-examination that requires. In the meantime, public exposure is helping to prevent him from doing more damage than he might otherwise. These people have tremendous amounts of shame already, which is what motivates them in unhealthy ways. Public shaming might help bring exposure, but like Lindy West, it's not something I can personally condone.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:01 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like misogyny, douching is a not only completely unnecessary but harmful practice, one that has been foisted on women by those who wish women to believe their vaginas are in need of strenuous cleansing for their own gain. Calling the misogynist blogger in question Doosh V is therefore perfectly apropos.
I have to douche for medical reasons (I own an NHS-issued douche, no less) and nevertheless endorse this statement
posted by Dysk at 8:16 PM on February 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have to douche for medical reasons (I own an NHS-issued douche, no less) and nevertheless endorse this statement
posted by Dysk at 8:16 PM on February 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
These people have tremendous amounts of shame already, which is what motivates them in unhealthy ways.
Probably very true. For me, I'm ambivalent about shaming partly because although I can emotionally relate to the desire for revenge, it feels like troll-feeding as well and reinforcing the alleged-victim stance of MRAs.
Though I was raised to forgive, empathize and foster change that way and once I was very adamant about that being the only hope for change, i've become somewhat eye-for-an-eye in my ethics, partly because I've experienced forgiveness/empathy as enabling pathological behavior which I've become less convinced can change, depending on the severity. Personally, I'm very conflicted on this, and it probably shows in my vacillations.
The ideal response, to me, is for folks like the Good Man Project (or Trey from Ashland-types) to do not only the emotional labor but also the far more likely to be effective work of correcting these kind of men as they are peers. Intellectually, I know this, but emotionally is a different story; I'm just of two minds about it as I think some others are.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 8:16 PM on February 7, 2016
Probably very true. For me, I'm ambivalent about shaming partly because although I can emotionally relate to the desire for revenge, it feels like troll-feeding as well and reinforcing the alleged-victim stance of MRAs.
Though I was raised to forgive, empathize and foster change that way and once I was very adamant about that being the only hope for change, i've become somewhat eye-for-an-eye in my ethics, partly because I've experienced forgiveness/empathy as enabling pathological behavior which I've become less convinced can change, depending on the severity. Personally, I'm very conflicted on this, and it probably shows in my vacillations.
The ideal response, to me, is for folks like the Good Man Project (or Trey from Ashland-types) to do not only the emotional labor but also the far more likely to be effective work of correcting these kind of men as they are peers. Intellectually, I know this, but emotionally is a different story; I'm just of two minds about it as I think some others are.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 8:16 PM on February 7, 2016
I mean... it's one thing to say I can't take part in a public shaming, but people have all kinds of justifiable reasons for their anger, and it's really not my place for me to dictate or request how they react to someone like Roosh. I'm not going to tone police anyone, and I totally understand why people are furious - I am too.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:17 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by krinklyfig at 8:17 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, I think trying to connect to these people through peer groups is likely to produce the best effect on an individual basis. It's not something I'm personally ready to do with MRAs, but I am beginning to work as a volunteer in prisons, to help teach meditation and promote self-soothing and healing. It's where we fail as a society, perhaps the most of any institutional effort. It's also a very controlled environment, which is a good place to learn compassion in difficult circumstances. Not sure I'm cut out for it, but in the long run I'd like very much to work with men's groups to cultivate healing and accountability. It's probably a better place to put my own energy to work in making a difference, rather than joining in a public shaming, tempting as it may be.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:28 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by krinklyfig at 8:28 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is a Cul De Sac in Suburban DC
The House of Roosh's Mum
It's been the ruin of many a poor man
Lord knows Roosh is one
He imagines a girl in Canada
She'll let him sew his seed
She's actually a cotton sock man
Down in suburban DC
Now the only thing a blogger needs
Is a basement and wifi
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he's trolling high
Oh mother tell your baby boy
Stop keep hating all women
Spend his life in misery
In the basement of Roosh's mum
Well he's built up quite a platform
But his followers got no brain
He's going back to DC suburbs
To wear that fedora and gold chain
There is a Cul De Sac in Suburban DC
The House of Roosh's Mum
It's been the ruin of many a poor man
Lord knows Roosh is one
posted by humanfont at 8:30 PM on February 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
The House of Roosh's Mum
It's been the ruin of many a poor man
Lord knows Roosh is one
He imagines a girl in Canada
She'll let him sew his seed
She's actually a cotton sock man
Down in suburban DC
Now the only thing a blogger needs
Is a basement and wifi
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he's trolling high
Oh mother tell your baby boy
Stop keep hating all women
Spend his life in misery
In the basement of Roosh's mum
Well he's built up quite a platform
But his followers got no brain
He's going back to DC suburbs
To wear that fedora and gold chain
There is a Cul De Sac in Suburban DC
The House of Roosh's Mum
It's been the ruin of many a poor man
Lord knows Roosh is one
posted by humanfont at 8:30 PM on February 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
As someone who has been doxed and harassed by assholes like this, and who has friends who have been doxed and harassed... I honestly just can't give a fuck. I know people who have had to move and are basically excluded from using social media for a while because of it. I hope this guy can't get a job or rent an apartment for the rest of his life because any time anyone googles him this comes up. The dude deserves to be completely ejected from society.
If he was 14 and pulling this shit i'd say he could change, but 36? She's taking the high road to the point of it being like, that see through rainbow road in the air from mario kart. To be clear, i'm not saying she's delusional or even that i don't think she genuinely feels that way... I'm just saying that i can't.
I can't actually think of anything i'd go "woah, that's fucked up" if i heard about it happening to him in retaliation. Like, i wish tarring and feathering someone and running them out of town on a log was still A Thing.
Every time i hear about another person like this with a bunch of assholes around them supporting them and assisting in the harassment, i think of the message i received that was a photo of the front of my house.
So yea. She is like, an actual saint. That is like Jesus himself levels of forgiveness. I guess i'm not.
posted by emptythought at 9:19 PM on February 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
If he was 14 and pulling this shit i'd say he could change, but 36? She's taking the high road to the point of it being like, that see through rainbow road in the air from mario kart. To be clear, i'm not saying she's delusional or even that i don't think she genuinely feels that way... I'm just saying that i can't.
I can't actually think of anything i'd go "woah, that's fucked up" if i heard about it happening to him in retaliation. Like, i wish tarring and feathering someone and running them out of town on a log was still A Thing.
Every time i hear about another person like this with a bunch of assholes around them supporting them and assisting in the harassment, i think of the message i received that was a photo of the front of my house.
So yea. She is like, an actual saint. That is like Jesus himself levels of forgiveness. I guess i'm not.
posted by emptythought at 9:19 PM on February 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm rather chuffed that mayors across Canada took to Twitter to say "nope, your sexist homophobic garbage isn't welcome here" in response to the 'let's make rape legal' meetings that this total waste of genetic material was planning.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:25 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:25 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
If he was 14 and pulling this shit i'd say he could change, but 36?
yep; 36 is the kicker. Same thing with the Asheville guys who were in their 30s. Bad behavior, habits of thinking are too entrenched at this age. People have more flexibility in teens and twenties, but if you haven't pulled your head out of your ass by 30-35, there isn't much hope short of a court order. I guess the benefit of having countering info from people like Good Man Project is you can hope to prevent more inductees into the toxic pit. Anything else is some pretty strong idealism, which I often want to embrace, but then feel is naive and misguided.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:48 PM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
yep; 36 is the kicker. Same thing with the Asheville guys who were in their 30s. Bad behavior, habits of thinking are too entrenched at this age. People have more flexibility in teens and twenties, but if you haven't pulled your head out of your ass by 30-35, there isn't much hope short of a court order. I guess the benefit of having countering info from people like Good Man Project is you can hope to prevent more inductees into the toxic pit. Anything else is some pretty strong idealism, which I often want to embrace, but then feel is naive and misguided.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:48 PM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I love Lindy West's piece because I think doxxing and harassing people's families is always uncool (I'm impressed that she still holds that view, given the effect this person has had on her life), and I hate "your mom's basement" jokes because it's stigmatizing and rather mean to a lot of folks who happen to live with their parents and don't deserve to be looked down on. But as for Roosh personally, I couldn't give two shits about what happens to him, beyond wanting to keep him from ever harming women again in any medium.
posted by thetortoise at 10:08 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 10:08 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I like what Ms. West said about 'attention does not equal legitimacy' (paraphrasing). The sooner people tune out of the online rantings and ravings of this clearly disordered individual, the better.
How awful for him to be so completely fucking terrified of half of the human race that he has to believe such garbage. I feel very sorry for the women in his family.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:16 PM on February 7, 2016
How awful for him to be so completely fucking terrified of half of the human race that he has to believe such garbage. I feel very sorry for the women in his family.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 11:16 PM on February 7, 2016
Countesa Elena, We Hunted the Mammoth has posted that he's made noises about becoming a fundamentalist Muslim.
posted by brujita at 11:49 PM on February 7, 2016
posted by brujita at 11:49 PM on February 7, 2016
People assume too much about families. We've read enough on AskMefi to know that decentness and awfulness can fall on either side of the parent/child equation and are often unrelated to parenting. Who is checking on estrangement or lesser forms of family detachment? I wonder if the family targeting is motivated by hey, they might not fight back. It's really lame and counter-productive. Glad it's being called out by a voice of reason.
posted by childofTethys at 11:49 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by childofTethys at 11:49 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Empathy is always a good thing so I absolutely love the fact that Lindy doesn't want this guy (or more particularly his family) to have to go through what she's had to, because it's shit and awful. Sometimes, however, people need to feel the wrath of others in order to get some idea of what is unacceptable. This dude deserves all the shit that is coming his way and it's just possible, even at the age of 36, that he might learn something about how it feels to be vilified and he might change his ways. It is possible. It doesn't excuse his previous behaviour but I'm all in favour of extreme learning curves, even if they're not pleasant.
posted by h00py at 6:44 AM on February 8, 2016
posted by h00py at 6:44 AM on February 8, 2016
brujita, I don't know how I feel about that. On the one hand, American Muslims absolutely do not need Roosh's conversion in the news; it would anger and embarrass many of them. On the other, it makes the FBI more likely to keep an eye on him.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:39 AM on February 8, 2016
posted by Countess Elena at 8:39 AM on February 8, 2016
brujita, I don't know how I feel about that. On the one hand, American Muslims absolutely do not need Roosh's conversion in the news; it would anger and embarrass many of them. On the other, it makes the FBI more likely to keep an eye on him.
I think brujita may be refering to this episode Roosh V prepares for Toronto by pretending to be Muslim,
Or if that's not what's being reference he's now already claimed to be Muslim already and this is where much of his belief stems from.
It speaks of BS of course but it could stem from this idea that's been floating in the manosphere that being Muslim and having a misogynist beliefs is a 'gotcha' for feminist and SJWs because it confuses feminists who automatically support Muslims (because minority and anti-rascism I guess) and don't know what to do with Muslims raping and attacking women. There's actually a thing and lines of anti-feminist attack based on 'Just say your Muslim! Ha ha that will get them/stop them"
Yes it's all kinds of stupid and wrong obviously but it's out there.
posted by Jalliah at 9:19 AM on February 8, 2016
I think brujita may be refering to this episode Roosh V prepares for Toronto by pretending to be Muslim,
Or if that's not what's being reference he's now already claimed to be Muslim already and this is where much of his belief stems from.
It speaks of BS of course but it could stem from this idea that's been floating in the manosphere that being Muslim and having a misogynist beliefs is a 'gotcha' for feminist and SJWs because it confuses feminists who automatically support Muslims (because minority and anti-rascism I guess) and don't know what to do with Muslims raping and attacking women. There's actually a thing and lines of anti-feminist attack based on 'Just say your Muslim! Ha ha that will get them/stop them"
Yes it's all kinds of stupid and wrong obviously but it's out there.
posted by Jalliah at 9:19 AM on February 8, 2016
We Hunted the Mammoth has a post offering some photos and descriptions of yesterday's events. Doosh V's events were few, private, and sparsely attended, while huge crowds of protesters turned his Return of Kings meetups into an opportunity to rally for the end of rape culture. In contrast to this, there's a photo of the press conference Doosh called, and at which he claimed to "destroy the media". Total attendance at the press conference by my count was about a dozen people. Counting Doosh.
posted by orange swan at 10:29 AM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by orange swan at 10:29 AM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jermaine Clement burning roosh in that Mammoth link is pretty fucking cool.
posted by valkane at 3:22 PM on February 8, 2016
posted by valkane at 3:22 PM on February 8, 2016
There was another whtm post on 12-20-15 and also one I can't find which has a picture of the smegma dressed in (iirc)red embroidered middle eastern clothing.
posted by brujita at 5:00 PM on February 8, 2016
posted by brujita at 5:00 PM on February 8, 2016
I'm with emptythought on this one. I've been attacked by this guy and minions. Roasting over an open pit is too good for them. These assholes are why I had to give up accounts everywhere, including here. It's why my local cops have notice about swat calls, why my kids schools are on alert, and why I jump every time the phone rings or the door knocks.
Fuck this guy and his supporters. I wish nothing but horrible, horrible things for them.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:33 AM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Fuck this guy and his supporters. I wish nothing but horrible, horrible things for them.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:33 AM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Probably very true. For me, I'm ambivalent about shaming partly because although I can emotionally relate to the desire for revenge, it feels like troll-feeding as well and reinforcing the alleged-victim stance of MRAs.
I'm ambivalent as well, but literally anything will reinforce their persecution complex.
posted by brundlefly at 2:18 PM on February 10, 2016
I'm ambivalent as well, but literally anything will reinforce their persecution complex.
posted by brundlefly at 2:18 PM on February 10, 2016
Men's rights activist Roosh V isn't just a sexist: he hates the modern world. Roosh and his community have seen that cultural change is chipping away at their privilege, and they're having none of it.
posted by homunculus at 10:18 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by homunculus at 10:18 PM on February 21, 2016
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posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:22 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]