"Everyone has a story. Like mine, it's rarely visible from the outside."
February 12, 2016 5:39 AM Subscribe
In the short hush right after, I think about something Chris said: "It is such an emotional journey to train for your first fight, even if you are a totally stereotypical dude." I am surprised to find myself so overwhelmed with gratitude that I tear up... And then they call my name.
"Why Men Fight" — a beautiful longform story about manhood, trauma and amateur boxing, by Thomas Page McBee.
"Why Men Fight" — a beautiful longform story about manhood, trauma and amateur boxing, by Thomas Page McBee.
This brings up a lot of stuff for me, because one of the reasons I would like to transition but have not is precisely this worry that I won't just get the body, I'll get the fight. I know such a lot of trans guys who do get the fight, so to speak, and I worry about myself because I'm definitely already a bit on the "feelings are just self indulgence, I think I'll do some curls instead" end of the spectrum in real life. (Hilariously, I have actually been considering joining a boxing gym - there's a boxing-for-old-people class around here that looks fun, and I feel like I need a different gym routine.)
I also worry just a bit about the male intimacy that this writer describes, because I like the intimacy that I have now. Not that I'm very feelings-y about it, but I like hanging around with queer women, I like being in spaces where people are very emotionally open, I like feeling like I could share my feelings if I wanted to. And I know that while I'm welcome in those spaces as a masculine spectrum person, I also know that I will be less welcome and the dynamic will change once I get, like, stubbly. I worry about the whole bro thing, the whole barbershop thing, the whole manly hug thing. I don't know if I want that, and I worry that if I transition, I will lose what I do have.
And then I worry that if I transition, I'll want the manly intimacy and the punching people. I mean, I know a couple of fairly mild and gender non-conforming trans guys, but for every one of them I have met or internet chatted with several who are all "when I went on testosterone I lost the ability to cry and really got in touch with my aggression".
I just want to feel like I have the right body, not get in touch with my aggression. But then, who am "I", really? What if it turns out that I'm just some random hormone soup and I discover that I really do want to get in touch with my aggression?
posted by Frowner at 6:48 AM on February 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
I also worry just a bit about the male intimacy that this writer describes, because I like the intimacy that I have now. Not that I'm very feelings-y about it, but I like hanging around with queer women, I like being in spaces where people are very emotionally open, I like feeling like I could share my feelings if I wanted to. And I know that while I'm welcome in those spaces as a masculine spectrum person, I also know that I will be less welcome and the dynamic will change once I get, like, stubbly. I worry about the whole bro thing, the whole barbershop thing, the whole manly hug thing. I don't know if I want that, and I worry that if I transition, I will lose what I do have.
And then I worry that if I transition, I'll want the manly intimacy and the punching people. I mean, I know a couple of fairly mild and gender non-conforming trans guys, but for every one of them I have met or internet chatted with several who are all "when I went on testosterone I lost the ability to cry and really got in touch with my aggression".
I just want to feel like I have the right body, not get in touch with my aggression. But then, who am "I", really? What if it turns out that I'm just some random hormone soup and I discover that I really do want to get in touch with my aggression?
posted by Frowner at 6:48 AM on February 12, 2016 [19 favorites]
In the discussion of nature-nurture and biology, I am always drawn to this interesting episode of "This American Life" which discusses testosterone. One of the most fascinating segments concerns a trans-man who describes his changing attitudes and behaviors as he starts taking high doses testosterone during the process of his sex transition.
Another good resource is "The Professor In The Cage" - a great book for men.
posted by theorique at 7:04 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Another good resource is "The Professor In The Cage" - a great book for men.
posted by theorique at 7:04 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Typing all that out made me realize something else - I'm around a lot of queer people who are negative about trans men in a really particular way. Nothing like the transmisogyny that trans women face, but I am frequently around people whose underlying idea is "yes, well, transition if you really must - but recognize that in doing so you're choosing privilege over righteousness and macho over feelings", and I feel like I've internalized that a lot. I definitely have had a lot of conversations with people where I have sort of preemptively apologized for wanting to transition, and I've certainly had what I think were probably some weird and inappropriate conversations where I ended up having to explain how I would be "accountable" for my choice.
Not that there's nothing to that, because I worry about being treated as a man and getting used to male privilege, but now that I really write it all out, I am not sure that those were conversations that it was so great for cis women to have with me.
posted by Frowner at 7:05 AM on February 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not that there's nothing to that, because I worry about being treated as a man and getting used to male privilege, but now that I really write it all out, I am not sure that those were conversations that it was so great for cis women to have with me.
posted by Frowner at 7:05 AM on February 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Wow. I used to box amatuer and it was one of the most physically and mentally demanding things I have ever done. I can't fathom going into the ring with the extra "weight" he was carrying. But to be still standing and competing at the end is indeed an accomplishment...
posted by jim in austin at 7:07 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 7:07 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also: the author of "The Professor in the Cage" is Jonathan Gottschall.
posted by theorique at 7:21 AM on February 12, 2016
posted by theorique at 7:21 AM on February 12, 2016
I'm around a lot of queer people who are negative about trans men in a really particular way. Nothing like the transmisogyny that trans women face, but I am frequently around people whose underlying idea is "yes, well, transition if you really must - but recognize that in doing so you're choosing privilege over righteousness and macho over feelings", and I feel like I've internalized that a lot.
Yeah, there's a subset of (often queer) trans women who say shit like this too, and OMG it is such bullshit. Like, there is a huge difference between "please be a responsible testosterone-haver" (or "wow, high testosterone is/was/would be the wrong thing for me," which I think is often part of the real impetus in these conversations) and this "transmasculinity is inherently problematic" stuff.
Honestly, one of the reasons I really liked this story is he mostly isn't looking for permission to transition, or slapping the "problematic" label on trans men specifically. He's mostly saying "Okay, this is a thing that high-T folks and masculine folks in general have to sort out — and I guess in my case there's a few extra wrinkles, but then I guess all the other guys at this gym have a few extra wrinkles of their own too, so whatever."
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:36 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, there's a subset of (often queer) trans women who say shit like this too, and OMG it is such bullshit. Like, there is a huge difference between "please be a responsible testosterone-haver" (or "wow, high testosterone is/was/would be the wrong thing for me," which I think is often part of the real impetus in these conversations) and this "transmasculinity is inherently problematic" stuff.
Honestly, one of the reasons I really liked this story is he mostly isn't looking for permission to transition, or slapping the "problematic" label on trans men specifically. He's mostly saying "Okay, this is a thing that high-T folks and masculine folks in general have to sort out — and I guess in my case there's a few extra wrinkles, but then I guess all the other guys at this gym have a few extra wrinkles of their own too, so whatever."
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:36 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Frowner, first of all thank you for your consistently thoughtful posts.
The idea of floating vaguely over my hormone soup without really understanding it is really disquieting to me as well. It seems like something that people who are transitioning have to face head on and both the article and your posts really illuminated that for me.
When I was a kid I used to wish I was "tougher". I've always been very conflict-averse, but in the last few years I've found myself becoming more assertive. At first it was really nice because society is really built around you being assertive and some things are just so much easier. But it can transition to being aggressive very quickly, and after what was probably an unnecessarily fraught conversation with someone I was angry with over the phone yesterday I'm starting to wonder just what is up with me. Despite my childhood I've come to value that identity, warts and all, and it's always a struggle to get "better" at whatever while still feeling like you are you. I also have a history of Alzheimer's in my family and after watching someone's personality dissolve I've really struggled with the assumption we all walk through live with that our identity "is". I realize this slips towards philosophical wankery but it's something that's actually become super real to me.
Sorry this is some weird rambling.
posted by selfnoise at 7:38 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The idea of floating vaguely over my hormone soup without really understanding it is really disquieting to me as well. It seems like something that people who are transitioning have to face head on and both the article and your posts really illuminated that for me.
When I was a kid I used to wish I was "tougher". I've always been very conflict-averse, but in the last few years I've found myself becoming more assertive. At first it was really nice because society is really built around you being assertive and some things are just so much easier. But it can transition to being aggressive very quickly, and after what was probably an unnecessarily fraught conversation with someone I was angry with over the phone yesterday I'm starting to wonder just what is up with me. Despite my childhood I've come to value that identity, warts and all, and it's always a struggle to get "better" at whatever while still feeling like you are you. I also have a history of Alzheimer's in my family and after watching someone's personality dissolve I've really struggled with the assumption we all walk through live with that our identity "is". I realize this slips towards philosophical wankery but it's something that's actually become super real to me.
Sorry this is some weird rambling.
posted by selfnoise at 7:38 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
CIS Male perspective here. I think this article confuses roughhousing/ rough play with fighting.
As a child my mom banned rough housing between my brother and me because she didn't want us to fight. As an adult I came to realize that what my mom didn't appreciate was that fighting and rough housing are different. Rough housing is a calibrated use of aggression and physical force that is a key element of nonverbal communication in human groups. Particularly in male peer groups.
If you don't know the language of rough housing, it leaves you at a big social disadvantage. I found myself in a lot of real fights until I learned the language. I misunderstood what what happening and became a bit of a bully and bullied as a result.
Fighting on the other hand has a different set of rules. An actual fight is almost unchecked aggression where the survival instincts take over.
So where this can go wrong is rough housing can cross into fighting because of a misunderstanding or maybe you tripped the other guys fight/flight subsystem. I really think it's an important part of learning to rough house is learning to control and mediate this part of your brain.
The other realization this has lead me to with my own daughters is that cultural biases have allowed many women to grow up excluded from rough housing. So I have really worked with my kids to teach them how to play rough, but not injure each
other (or me).
Anyway I wonder if the author of the article is going through this as a trans man; in the same way I awoke to this in my 20s as a cis man raised in a no rough housing environment.
I think ultimately that he's missed a couple of bigger lessons here. This isn't men fighting. This is rough housing and a social language important to himan culture. Also it isn't a guy thing. It's a human non-verbal language thing. Women should learn it too.
In fact all the macho bullshit we wrap it is just another manifestation of the patriarchy.
posted by humanfont at 7:41 AM on February 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
As a child my mom banned rough housing between my brother and me because she didn't want us to fight. As an adult I came to realize that what my mom didn't appreciate was that fighting and rough housing are different. Rough housing is a calibrated use of aggression and physical force that is a key element of nonverbal communication in human groups. Particularly in male peer groups.
If you don't know the language of rough housing, it leaves you at a big social disadvantage. I found myself in a lot of real fights until I learned the language. I misunderstood what what happening and became a bit of a bully and bullied as a result.
Fighting on the other hand has a different set of rules. An actual fight is almost unchecked aggression where the survival instincts take over.
So where this can go wrong is rough housing can cross into fighting because of a misunderstanding or maybe you tripped the other guys fight/flight subsystem. I really think it's an important part of learning to rough house is learning to control and mediate this part of your brain.
The other realization this has lead me to with my own daughters is that cultural biases have allowed many women to grow up excluded from rough housing. So I have really worked with my kids to teach them how to play rough, but not injure each
other (or me).
Anyway I wonder if the author of the article is going through this as a trans man; in the same way I awoke to this in my 20s as a cis man raised in a no rough housing environment.
I think ultimately that he's missed a couple of bigger lessons here. This isn't men fighting. This is rough housing and a social language important to himan culture. Also it isn't a guy thing. It's a human non-verbal language thing. Women should learn it too.
In fact all the macho bullshit we wrap it is just another manifestation of the patriarchy.
posted by humanfont at 7:41 AM on February 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Men have to fight someone or something at some point, don’t they?
Men, no. But boys, when they undergo the first rush of testosterone - just one ingredient of adolescence's heady hormonal cocktail - yet lack the experience that comes with maturity to master it... well, sometimes it's simplest to channel that into sports like boxing or wrestling. (Some men may later feel a nostalgia for that, parcelled with the rest of their long-passed youth, and return to the ring or the mat.) It's not about fighting another person, especially when that person is going through the same thing. It's about meeting a challenge by oneself.
When the author writes "It was a good fight, and I lost it." that refers only to the sport's side, not the personal test.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:49 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Men, no. But boys, when they undergo the first rush of testosterone - just one ingredient of adolescence's heady hormonal cocktail - yet lack the experience that comes with maturity to master it... well, sometimes it's simplest to channel that into sports like boxing or wrestling. (Some men may later feel a nostalgia for that, parcelled with the rest of their long-passed youth, and return to the ring or the mat.) It's not about fighting another person, especially when that person is going through the same thing. It's about meeting a challenge by oneself.
When the author writes "It was a good fight, and I lost it." that refers only to the sport's side, not the personal test.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:49 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cisgender male here and I think it is so, so dope that the author of this article took such a risk in learning to fight and be embodied in this particular way. Anyone who steps into the ring has serious brass. RESPECT! Me, I was was raised by pacifists with good intentions so I never really learned how to fight. Now I'm a fortysomething dad and have been boxing with a personal trainer (retired professional boxer) for two and a half years. Hands down, it has taught me scads about myself and the fact that boxing - real boxing - has a lot more to do with ballet than it does with fighting. It is such an extreme and physically/mentally demanding art. Now that I know how easy it is to physically hurt another person and, in turn, to be hurt, I find that I am much more committed to peace and non-violence than ever before. I am also a less anxious, more self-assured & embodied person. I have seen to it that my daughters, who are also committed to peace and non-violence, now know how to work a heavy bag and can throw some serious heat. Great post!
posted by Bob Regular at 7:58 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Bob Regular at 7:58 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm a cis woman (albeit one with a complicated relationship to masculinity) and really appreciated this piece, as well as Frowner's always-awesome commentary. It made me think of a good friend who is a boxing coach and a Marine. Much of the time we're on the same page when we talk to each other but other times I'll see him talk to men, talk to grunts in particular, and he immediately slips into this fascinating other language, partly physical. Sometimes it seems like this powerful form of bonding and it makes me envious I've never felt that, but other times it seems almost scary and alienating, full of hidden pressures and constant threat. (Maybe some of that scary side is from experiencing real violence and combat, and maybe some women have it too? I don't know.) Anyway, this was a really incredible piece of writing.
posted by thetortoise at 8:23 AM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 8:23 AM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm 58, and I've never, ever been in a fight in my entire life. Nor, do I find fighting of any sort interesting or entertaining.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:38 AM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:38 AM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed; strongly critical sentiment's totally fine, but we should skip the repeated "fuck this, fuck group x, fuck 'em" stuff.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:55 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:55 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
My first experience being angry after starting T was a real eye-opener. It felt totally different than it did pre-T. I felt it like a burning in my chest. I've never thrown or hit anything (certainly not anyone) but I can understand the impulse. I have zero experience having to manage my anger since it was mostly internalized. I gave my (now ex-)partner the silent treatment and fumed in another room, or took a walk in the park, punctuated by sobs. I almost never yelled or swore when we fought. I still haven't, except at other drivers in the solitude of my vehicle, but I'm worried that the monster will come out, and I keep tabs on it in a way I never had to.
When I transitioned at 30, I entered a world I didn’t understand. Though I have always had a stray guy friend here and there, it wasn’t until I became one that I really experienced “Hey, brothers” and side hugs and now, this rowdy, good-natured group of jocks. Without a boyhood, I don’t quite know how to translate the camaraderie, how to find the right teasing note when I joke around, when to ask a guy who’s bleeding if he’s okay and when to leave it alone
This a million times. I have no idea how to interact with men as a man. I especially have no idea how to flirt with men as a man; I've been around queer guys all my life but it is such a foreign experience to be one. I don't feel completely at ease anywhere except in the company of other trans people even though 99% of my cis friends and coworkers have been accepting. I made a light comment about the weather while alone in an elevator with a woman, and she distanced herself in the same way I used to rebuff strange men. This is still better than not transitioning - I mean, at least I'm still alive - but I have to fumble my way through the world all over again.
posted by desjardins at 9:00 AM on February 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
When I transitioned at 30, I entered a world I didn’t understand. Though I have always had a stray guy friend here and there, it wasn’t until I became one that I really experienced “Hey, brothers” and side hugs and now, this rowdy, good-natured group of jocks. Without a boyhood, I don’t quite know how to translate the camaraderie, how to find the right teasing note when I joke around, when to ask a guy who’s bleeding if he’s okay and when to leave it alone
This a million times. I have no idea how to interact with men as a man. I especially have no idea how to flirt with men as a man; I've been around queer guys all my life but it is such a foreign experience to be one. I don't feel completely at ease anywhere except in the company of other trans people even though 99% of my cis friends and coworkers have been accepting. I made a light comment about the weather while alone in an elevator with a woman, and she distanced herself in the same way I used to rebuff strange men. This is still better than not transitioning - I mean, at least I'm still alive - but I have to fumble my way through the world all over again.
posted by desjardins at 9:00 AM on February 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Why do men fight? Because that other man is wailing on you for the n-th time and it's just finally enough.
Oh, this is about someone who chose to fight, and got in a ring where there are rules? That's an interesting situation too, but I know people here are smart enough to realize that it's not going to be the whole story of men and violence.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:06 AM on February 12, 2016
Oh, this is about someone who chose to fight, and got in a ring where there are rules? That's an interesting situation too, but I know people here are smart enough to realize that it's not going to be the whole story of men and violence.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:06 AM on February 12, 2016
The obsession with rationalizing male violence is so strange to me. I interact with men cooperatively every single day and have done for for years. I haven't punched a guy since middle school. The average person has serious daily need for peaceful, cooperative skills and virtually non for violent confrontation.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I actually think some of the "men need physical contact with other men to experience acceptable violence thing" actually needs another layer peeled off, and that layer is "men need physical contact with other men in a way that can be safely abstracted from our sexuality" and you know what? Maybe just take the risk that you are grappling with dudes because you like grappling with dudes.
Boxing and wrestling and whatever are great fun and cool, but let's not make them step one in the conversation that ends with "war is a force that gives us meaning!"
posted by selfnoise at 10:01 AM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I actually think some of the "men need physical contact with other men to experience acceptable violence thing" actually needs another layer peeled off, and that layer is "men need physical contact with other men in a way that can be safely abstracted from our sexuality" and you know what? Maybe just take the risk that you are grappling with dudes because you like grappling with dudes.
Boxing and wrestling and whatever are great fun and cool, but let's not make them step one in the conversation that ends with "war is a force that gives us meaning!"
posted by selfnoise at 10:01 AM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I hesitate to comment on this one. I am sure I will say the wrong thing, and say it badly, and will offend. But I am so appalled by this piece. This may be perhaps driven by my prejudices when it comes to issues of masculinity, aggression, violence. And those prejudices may be totally blinding me to the virtues of both the piece and the reactions to it. And if so I am willing to concede I may be seeing monsters where there are none, and may, because of that mistake, be about to say something wholly unforgiveable.
But god damn, I hated this essay. As someone who has been excluded from the world of men my entire life, when I have been taught to be frightened of their violence and their unpredictability, when even the mildest-seeming man, instincts say, is a secret volcano ready to blow, do you know how much it sucks to read about someone being initiated into that secret club by virtue of being willing to get the shit beat out of you and to reciprocate by throwing punches yourself? The sickening eagerness to embrace that violence, the outrageous conflation of it with brotherly love, and worse, the suspicion that he's right, that all it really takes to be allowed into that club, into that love, is a big dose of testosterone and the collision of fist and jaw and blood.
I feel a little weird writing this next part. My original comment was deleted because of the language, so I have given a lot of thought about how to rephrase it. In the comment, I repudiated this idea of brotherhood, this idea of masculinity. I don't have anything to replace that idea with, though. I mean, I honestly think the author is actually right. Men have a fascination with beating each other up. They think about it, they plan for it, they enact it. There isn't much else to masculinity, when you strip that away. And that saddens me as much as it horrifies me.
posted by mittens at 10:04 AM on February 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
But god damn, I hated this essay. As someone who has been excluded from the world of men my entire life, when I have been taught to be frightened of their violence and their unpredictability, when even the mildest-seeming man, instincts say, is a secret volcano ready to blow, do you know how much it sucks to read about someone being initiated into that secret club by virtue of being willing to get the shit beat out of you and to reciprocate by throwing punches yourself? The sickening eagerness to embrace that violence, the outrageous conflation of it with brotherly love, and worse, the suspicion that he's right, that all it really takes to be allowed into that club, into that love, is a big dose of testosterone and the collision of fist and jaw and blood.
I feel a little weird writing this next part. My original comment was deleted because of the language, so I have given a lot of thought about how to rephrase it. In the comment, I repudiated this idea of brotherhood, this idea of masculinity. I don't have anything to replace that idea with, though. I mean, I honestly think the author is actually right. Men have a fascination with beating each other up. They think about it, they plan for it, they enact it. There isn't much else to masculinity, when you strip that away. And that saddens me as much as it horrifies me.
posted by mittens at 10:04 AM on February 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
The willingness and ability to do violence is a core function of a masculine man. The author has nothing but my respect.
posted by aurelius at 10:53 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by aurelius at 10:53 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Men have to fight someone or something at some point, don’t they?
No.
No, they don't.
Yes they do. So do women. Everybody fights something, whether it's depression or anorexia or sexism or insecurity or a million other things life throws at you or that you throw at yourself.
I took up amateur boxing in my early thirties. It became a physical manifestation of the other things in my life I was struggling with, and the focus and discipline and training that helped me be successful in the ring all helped me deal with the things I couldn't see too.
One of the biggest lessons that boxing gave me is that even though you're the only one between the ropes when the bell goes, you're not really alone. Your coach and your sparring partners and trainers are all in there with you, even if you can't see them. Same thing with life. Sometimes you feel alone, but you're really not. It's good to be reminded of that.
posted by HighLife at 10:57 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
No.
No, they don't.
Yes they do. So do women. Everybody fights something, whether it's depression or anorexia or sexism or insecurity or a million other things life throws at you or that you throw at yourself.
I took up amateur boxing in my early thirties. It became a physical manifestation of the other things in my life I was struggling with, and the focus and discipline and training that helped me be successful in the ring all helped me deal with the things I couldn't see too.
One of the biggest lessons that boxing gave me is that even though you're the only one between the ropes when the bell goes, you're not really alone. Your coach and your sparring partners and trainers are all in there with you, even if you can't see them. Same thing with life. Sometimes you feel alone, but you're really not. It's good to be reminded of that.
posted by HighLife at 10:57 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes they do. So do women. Everybody fights something, whether it's depression or anorexia or sexism or insecurity or a million other things life throws at you or that you throw at yourself.
I respect your life experience, but... what this feels like to me is framing your encounter with the world with the idea of violence. Like, we need to cut down on the drug problem, so let's have a War On Drugs. This is going to limit your interaction to a certain framework, and while it's an effective set of tools judging from history, it's not one that I feel comfortable living inside.
posted by selfnoise at 11:10 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I respect your life experience, but... what this feels like to me is framing your encounter with the world with the idea of violence. Like, we need to cut down on the drug problem, so let's have a War On Drugs. This is going to limit your interaction to a certain framework, and while it's an effective set of tools judging from history, it's not one that I feel comfortable living inside.
posted by selfnoise at 11:10 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
No.
No, they don't.
No man has to start a fight. But sometimes he finds himself, against his will, in a fight that has been started by someone else. It is wise to be prepared for the possibility that violence might find us (even though, as sensible and cool-headed people, we do not seek it out).
posted by theorique at 11:13 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, they don't.
No man has to start a fight. But sometimes he finds himself, against his will, in a fight that has been started by someone else. It is wise to be prepared for the possibility that violence might find us (even though, as sensible and cool-headed people, we do not seek it out).
posted by theorique at 11:13 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
The juxtaposition between this thread and the domestic violence thread is interesting, if not entirely unexpected.
We need to take seriously the fact that the rates of domestic violence soar when you're looking at men in violent professions- slaughterhouses, police, military- Training people to kill increases their likelihood of killing and violence. Strange.
The willingness and ability to do violence is a core function of a masculine man.
I mean, it was a well-written piece. Very personal, very touching in that. But then it overextends into some reductionary "Interest/willingness to fight is what defines masculinity" garbage, and it loses me there. It might be their masculinity, but it isn't mine.
“The rest of us have to prove our manliness, or something, by standing up to some guy. A fighter never has that urge because he gets rid of it in his work. That’s why I say that, when everything else is equal, fighters are the best-adjusted males in the world.”
lolno
posted by CrystalDave at 11:15 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
We need to take seriously the fact that the rates of domestic violence soar when you're looking at men in violent professions- slaughterhouses, police, military- Training people to kill increases their likelihood of killing and violence. Strange.
The willingness and ability to do violence is a core function of a masculine man.
I mean, it was a well-written piece. Very personal, very touching in that. But then it overextends into some reductionary "Interest/willingness to fight is what defines masculinity" garbage, and it loses me there. It might be their masculinity, but it isn't mine.
“The rest of us have to prove our manliness, or something, by standing up to some guy. A fighter never has that urge because he gets rid of it in his work. That’s why I say that, when everything else is equal, fighters are the best-adjusted males in the world.”
lolno
posted by CrystalDave at 11:15 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, men can be aggressive and combative but damn few of them have ever crawled into a boxing ring. It is a Total No BS Zone. No amount of strutting, posturing, threatening, lip or bravado is going to help you when the bell rings. Either you can do it or you can't. And if you can't but there's no quit in you and you keep after it all the way to the end, then that means something too. And that is what the author walked away with: respect...
posted by jim in austin at 11:19 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jim in austin at 11:19 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
>One of the biggest lessons that boxing gave me is that even though you're the only one between the ropes when the bell goes, you're not really alone.
My experience of violence is that yes, sometimes you really are alone. Pretending that boxing is somehow representative of men's experience of violence makes this discussion fatally myopic.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:19 AM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
My experience of violence is that yes, sometimes you really are alone. Pretending that boxing is somehow representative of men's experience of violence makes this discussion fatally myopic.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:19 AM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
As a cis woman in martial arts, a lot of why McBee loves it sounds really familiar. Maybe more testosterone makes you more likely to feel that way, but I get it. It's a way to physically work out things that are hard to vent even in other physical ways. It's not about your anger, because if it is you'll be dangerous and unwelcome in any decent place, but on the other hand it is; it's about channeling aggression and feeling it as power and still trusting other people enough to risk your personal safety to them.
It always makes me sad to see people dismissing combat sports as savage and unevolved. We use our humanity to elevate them to something much more complex and satisfying.
posted by hollyholly at 11:27 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
It always makes me sad to see people dismissing combat sports as savage and unevolved. We use our humanity to elevate them to something much more complex and satisfying.
posted by hollyholly at 11:27 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
>boxing became a way to reclaim his relationship to violence. “The chaos is contained and you’re forced to confront what is in front of you, because the ring is only so big,” he says. Unlike a fight in the street, boxing is about you, not the other guy.
This is an important point some of you seem to miss. This is a sport, a competition, not a street fight. It's violence, but controlled.
posted by anti social order at 11:58 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is an important point some of you seem to miss. This is a sport, a competition, not a street fight. It's violence, but controlled.
posted by anti social order at 11:58 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the one hand I'm happy for McBee that he found a way to successfully validate his manhood. On the other hand I'm really annoyed that the metric he used and the way he writes about it falls pretty squarely into what I see as the sort of Hemingwayesque toxic masculinity that I've been fighting against my whole life. He writes about reforming masculinity from the inside, but I'm not really seeing any of that here, just happiness that he's passed the test for normative masculinity.
posted by conic at 11:59 AM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by conic at 11:59 AM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah, men can be aggressive and combative but damn few of them have ever crawled into a boxing ring. It is a Total No BS Zone. No amount of strutting, posturing, threatening, lip or bravado is going to help you when the bell rings. Either you can do it or you can't.
This is pure myth-making and is quite simply untrue, even at the highest levels.
I suggest reading Sugar Ray Leonard's account of his first fight with Roberto Duran. Leonard -- who was the better fighter by far, in my opinion -- attributes his loss in that fight to the way Duran's posturing and bravado at the pre-fight weigh in got into his head and made him too emotional to fight his fight.
And the ring is a totally artificial environment in which almost everything is set up to help you if you get in trouble and can no longer defend yourself.
If you want to see real violence, there's a stratum of YouTube made just for that purpose, and you can look at male on male violence with all the glamor and protections of the ring stripped away. It's ugly almost beyond belief if you haven't seen it, and I wonder how many of our culture's comforting delusions about violence and 'real manhood' could survive if more people had.
posted by jamjam at 12:07 PM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is pure myth-making and is quite simply untrue, even at the highest levels.
I suggest reading Sugar Ray Leonard's account of his first fight with Roberto Duran. Leonard -- who was the better fighter by far, in my opinion -- attributes his loss in that fight to the way Duran's posturing and bravado at the pre-fight weigh in got into his head and made him too emotional to fight his fight.
And the ring is a totally artificial environment in which almost everything is set up to help you if you get in trouble and can no longer defend yourself.
If you want to see real violence, there's a stratum of YouTube made just for that purpose, and you can look at male on male violence with all the glamor and protections of the ring stripped away. It's ugly almost beyond belief if you haven't seen it, and I wonder how many of our culture's comforting delusions about violence and 'real manhood' could survive if more people had.
posted by jamjam at 12:07 PM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sometimes I feel like our culture(s) glorify masculinity but have a taboo against talking and thinking about the subject, except in the simplest terms. And I think that weird double-bind hits trans men extra hard.
posted by thetortoise at 12:10 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 12:10 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Okay, here is a thought, from a transmasculine person:
It might be that when you transition, you feel a need to be able to handle the "normative" aspects of your gender that is different, both politically and in its content, from how cis people might feel. There's all kinds of trans people, and folks feel all kinds of different ways about being able to "pass" - some people feel it's really important, some people feel it's really retrograde, some people feel like the whole concept of "passing" reflects really bad ideas about gender. But at the same time, this dude is the one who has to go out on the street and either get read successfully as male or deal with the consequences of being read as gender-weird. This dude is the one who has had to deal with all the "are you sure you're trans, can't you just be butch" and weird moments when you sort of pass until you don't, etc etc. Plus all the social gatekeeping where you have to be masculine enough for people, doctors, etc to accept that you are "really" trans*. For him, being able to perform normative masculinity isn't just an ideological thing.
I would suggest that this is a conversation folks should be careful with. I think that cis folks should be a little bit careful in evaluating how trans folks deal with performing gender in a fundamentally hostile society. You don't have to like boxing, or like the idea that 'men have to fight' to be a little sympathetic to the idea that a trans guy might have more going on about all this boxing stuff than just a desire to reify toxic norms.
*Even someone close to me who I love dearly has said things like "oh, you're talking about [feminine thing], does that mean you're thinking differently about transitioning" and "when you start taking hormones, of course you'll get rid of [family heirloom girly thing]".
posted by Frowner at 12:12 PM on February 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
It might be that when you transition, you feel a need to be able to handle the "normative" aspects of your gender that is different, both politically and in its content, from how cis people might feel. There's all kinds of trans people, and folks feel all kinds of different ways about being able to "pass" - some people feel it's really important, some people feel it's really retrograde, some people feel like the whole concept of "passing" reflects really bad ideas about gender. But at the same time, this dude is the one who has to go out on the street and either get read successfully as male or deal with the consequences of being read as gender-weird. This dude is the one who has had to deal with all the "are you sure you're trans, can't you just be butch" and weird moments when you sort of pass until you don't, etc etc. Plus all the social gatekeeping where you have to be masculine enough for people, doctors, etc to accept that you are "really" trans*. For him, being able to perform normative masculinity isn't just an ideological thing.
I would suggest that this is a conversation folks should be careful with. I think that cis folks should be a little bit careful in evaluating how trans folks deal with performing gender in a fundamentally hostile society. You don't have to like boxing, or like the idea that 'men have to fight' to be a little sympathetic to the idea that a trans guy might have more going on about all this boxing stuff than just a desire to reify toxic norms.
*Even someone close to me who I love dearly has said things like "oh, you're talking about [feminine thing], does that mean you're thinking differently about transitioning" and "when you start taking hormones, of course you'll get rid of [family heirloom girly thing]".
posted by Frowner at 12:12 PM on February 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
I add that I am constantly read as gender-weird, and while that opens some cool-queer-people community doors for me, sometimes I feel like wow, it would be nice to get fewer stares and awkward questions. So it's tiring, is all I'm saying, and not everyone is cool with the "I'm waiting for the revolution before I put this burden down" bit.
posted by Frowner at 12:13 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 12:13 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are things in this that resonate; I think learning to spar (slowly, ineptly, and sometimes painfully, as an over-30 adult) gave me the motivation to get my butt to the gym in a way that I don't think anything else would have. If you have a competitive streak, it's a great way to get that out of your system. It gives me somewhere psychologically to go that I think is actually more important for women; in a society that encourages us to sit down and meekly smile at all times, I enjoy defying that expectation in as abject a way as I can, and I suspect McBee's motivation to prove something to himself and other men has similar roots.
That said, there's also aggravating bro-y nonsense and culture around almost all combative martial arts that I would cheerfully drop into the nearest volcano, and I don't really think it's required for anybody to engage with their physicality that way, male or female. I encourage my friends to try hitting a bag with me and see if it sticks, but if it doesn't, I certainly don't think less of them.
posted by tautological at 12:33 PM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
That said, there's also aggravating bro-y nonsense and culture around almost all combative martial arts that I would cheerfully drop into the nearest volcano, and I don't really think it's required for anybody to engage with their physicality that way, male or female. I encourage my friends to try hitting a bag with me and see if it sticks, but if it doesn't, I certainly don't think less of them.
posted by tautological at 12:33 PM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you want to see real violence, there's a stratum of YouTube made just for that purpose, and you can look at male on male violence with all the glamor and protections of the ring stripped away.
Also see: WorldStar. Although WSHH seems to maintain a substantial component of women-on-women fights as well.
posted by theorique at 12:36 PM on February 12, 2016
Also see: WorldStar. Although WSHH seems to maintain a substantial component of women-on-women fights as well.
posted by theorique at 12:36 PM on February 12, 2016
qcubed, many transitioning transmen have trauma, past and ongoing, to go along with their new hormonal universe. I'm confused why you compare what they describe to your own situationally rough cis male teenage years and seem to not see a connection?
posted by hollyholly at 12:38 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hollyholly at 12:38 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think I read a different article than everyone else in the thread. I didn't read an article about taking up violence and making it your own. Rather, I read an article about somebody looking for some of the qualities that you can only give yourself. About looking in the mirror and instead of seeing Junior, seeing Pride, seeing Power. Yes the author sought these traits out through boxing, but that's hardly the only way to do it. On the whole, I liked my article better.
posted by Meeks Ormand at 1:14 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Meeks Ormand at 1:14 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I actually think some of the "men need physical contact with other men to experience acceptable violence thing" actually needs another layer peeled off, and that layer is "men need physical contact with other men in a way that can be safely abstracted from our sexuality" and you know what? Maybe just take the risk that you are grappling with dudes because you like grappling with dudes. "men need physical contact with other men in a way that can be safely abstracted from our sexuality" and you know what? Maybe just take the risk that you are grappling with dudes because you like grappling with dudes
I'm a little confused but what you mean here. I would say homophobia among sports guys, and fighting sports guys in particular is a whole mess and a real problem, but the conflation of all male contact with sexuality is equally a problem and arguably the root problem here. And I'm not completely sure whether you're agreeing with this or disagreeing with it.
Anyway, consensual and controlled violence is pretty satisfying but physical fighting is pretty far from a core part of my masculinity. Metaphorical fighting maybe.
posted by atoxyl at 1:17 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a little confused but what you mean here. I would say homophobia among sports guys, and fighting sports guys in particular is a whole mess and a real problem, but the conflation of all male contact with sexuality is equally a problem and arguably the root problem here. And I'm not completely sure whether you're agreeing with this or disagreeing with it.
Anyway, consensual and controlled violence is pretty satisfying but physical fighting is pretty far from a core part of my masculinity. Metaphorical fighting maybe.
posted by atoxyl at 1:17 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Re-reading the article it really was a perfect MetaFiler article. The individual experience was fascinating, deeply contemplated, and well conveyed. And whenever he wandered over into generalizing/universalizing it was bullshit that is dismissive of other people's experiences and ways of being in the world. I'm trying to only hear the experience and ignore the rest but I'm not very good at it.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:21 PM on February 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by benito.strauss at 1:21 PM on February 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
The willingness and ability to do violence is a core function of a masculine man.
Yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:29 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:29 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I thought the article had some good parts and some problematic parts. Someone learning what use there is in boxing for the first time was interesting and echoed my experiences, and the trans perspective of how this relates to "being a man" was interesting. But the author indicates that violence is an essential part of masculinity and never really repudiates that, and that's where he lost me. There was a glimmer of hope here:
That’s why I say that, when everything else is equal, fighters are the best-adjusted males in the world.”
To which the boxer replies, doubtfully, “I don’t know.”
But the author never really came right out and said "this was interesting, but was it really essential?"
I did boxing/MMA for a couple years in my early-mid 20s, and I really liked it. It was an important experience for me. But I would never, ever say that it's an essential part of being masculine. I don't think my friends who never learned to fight are missing something if they don't want to learn to fight. I think the message that masculinity must include some form of violence is incredibly damaging. A much better perspective would be that for some people - not only men, but others who want to take part - these kinds of sports can be really fun and also a chance to learn and grow. But when you insist that all men must partake in violence to be masculine, you're excluding people and signaling to some people that they must perform violence. No wonder lots of guys want to fight when we feel threatened rather than doing something mature, like talking it out or just walking away.
If we think that fighting sports are important for self-defense, that's fine. If we think they're a good way to learn and grow, that's great. But when you make it an essential part of being a man, you've gotten really problematic and are encouraging more violence, and that's where you lose me.
posted by Tehhund at 1:32 PM on February 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
That’s why I say that, when everything else is equal, fighters are the best-adjusted males in the world.”
To which the boxer replies, doubtfully, “I don’t know.”
But the author never really came right out and said "this was interesting, but was it really essential?"
I did boxing/MMA for a couple years in my early-mid 20s, and I really liked it. It was an important experience for me. But I would never, ever say that it's an essential part of being masculine. I don't think my friends who never learned to fight are missing something if they don't want to learn to fight. I think the message that masculinity must include some form of violence is incredibly damaging. A much better perspective would be that for some people - not only men, but others who want to take part - these kinds of sports can be really fun and also a chance to learn and grow. But when you insist that all men must partake in violence to be masculine, you're excluding people and signaling to some people that they must perform violence. No wonder lots of guys want to fight when we feel threatened rather than doing something mature, like talking it out or just walking away.
If we think that fighting sports are important for self-defense, that's fine. If we think they're a good way to learn and grow, that's great. But when you make it an essential part of being a man, you've gotten really problematic and are encouraging more violence, and that's where you lose me.
posted by Tehhund at 1:32 PM on February 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yeah, men can be aggressive and combative but damn few of them have ever crawled into a boxing ring. It is a Total No BS Zone. No amount of strutting, posturing, threatening, lip or bravado is going to help you when the bell rings.
You say you've boxed, but this statement makes me wonder if you have actually spent any time in a boxing gym. Every one I've been to has severe power dynamic problems. Sure, everyone acts happy and gets along, but that only happens if everyone learns their place. Rather than being accepted as a friend, you're only allowed in if you know your place in the pecking order, which is enforced by the implied violence of the space. It may be friendly, but it's still pretty toxic. I liked the guys I boxed with but the dynamic is problematic.
And god help you if someone steps out of line and upsets the pecking order or gets seriously angry at each other.
posted by Tehhund at 1:39 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
You say you've boxed, but this statement makes me wonder if you have actually spent any time in a boxing gym. Every one I've been to has severe power dynamic problems. Sure, everyone acts happy and gets along, but that only happens if everyone learns their place. Rather than being accepted as a friend, you're only allowed in if you know your place in the pecking order, which is enforced by the implied violence of the space. It may be friendly, but it's still pretty toxic. I liked the guys I boxed with but the dynamic is problematic.
And god help you if someone steps out of line and upsets the pecking order or gets seriously angry at each other.
posted by Tehhund at 1:39 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The willingness and ability to do violence is a core function of a masculine man.
A core function of toxic masculinity, more like.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:52 PM on February 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
A core function of toxic masculinity, more like.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:52 PM on February 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
You say you've boxed, but this statement makes me wonder if you have actually spent any time in a boxing gym. Every one I've been to has severe power dynamic problems. Sure, everyone acts happy and gets along, but that only happens if everyone learns their place. Rather than being accepted as a friend, you're only allowed in if you know your place in the pecking order, which is enforced by the implied violence of the space. It may be friendly, but it's still pretty toxic. I liked the guys I boxed with but the dynamic is problematic.
On a boxing-related note: are these gyms that are mixed gender? There's one locally that markets itself as boxing for all, including people who are older, not ridiculously fit, etc. A friend of mine talks about how she really liked doing a heavy bag workout when she had a heavy bag, and then I looked up some of the training routine stuff and it sounded like it would be both fun and challenging, and this gym seems to spin itself as welcoming. I don't want to join a gym that's full of horrible power dynamic stuff and pecking orders - based on your experience, do you feel like this is intrinsic to boxing?
posted by Frowner at 1:53 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
On a boxing-related note: are these gyms that are mixed gender? There's one locally that markets itself as boxing for all, including people who are older, not ridiculously fit, etc. A friend of mine talks about how she really liked doing a heavy bag workout when she had a heavy bag, and then I looked up some of the training routine stuff and it sounded like it would be both fun and challenging, and this gym seems to spin itself as welcoming. I don't want to join a gym that's full of horrible power dynamic stuff and pecking orders - based on your experience, do you feel like this is intrinsic to boxing?
posted by Frowner at 1:53 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
are these gyms that are mixed gender?
Both boxing gyms I've been a member of were. We often did mixed sparring.
I don't want to join a gym that's full of horrible power dynamic stuff and pecking orders -do you feel like this is intrinsic to boxing
It certainly wasn't my gyms. If you were a hothead deliberately looking to hurt people and not respect other members of the team, the owners walked you out the door immediately.
posted by HighLife at 2:18 PM on February 12, 2016
Both boxing gyms I've been a member of were. We often did mixed sparring.
I don't want to join a gym that's full of horrible power dynamic stuff and pecking orders -do you feel like this is intrinsic to boxing
It certainly wasn't my gyms. If you were a hothead deliberately looking to hurt people and not respect other members of the team, the owners walked you out the door immediately.
posted by HighLife at 2:18 PM on February 12, 2016
kalessin, I'm having trouble connecting this article's general thrust to Emotional Labor and its megathread; could you walk me through your train of thought a little on the connection between the two?
I didn't understand this either.
posted by grouse at 2:24 PM on February 12, 2016
I didn't understand this either.
posted by grouse at 2:24 PM on February 12, 2016
It's not clear to me why the presence of a pecking order at a boxing gym is, in itself, a problem. Any group organized around an activity is going to have an implicit or explicit ranking of who's new, who's experienced, who's good at the activity, who's not. Fighting sports are no exception.
A person who's brand new is going to have a different status within the group than a person who's been around for a while. Especially in the case of young men with big egos (the "typical" demographic at a boxing gym), it may be necessary for a mentor or leader to "set a young man straight" and physically educate him as to his actual position and status within the group. Aside from that, though, the presence of a hierarchy actually works against needless intra-group violence, friction, and competition, so that the group can get to work on the proper task at hand.
posted by theorique at 3:08 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
A person who's brand new is going to have a different status within the group than a person who's been around for a while. Especially in the case of young men with big egos (the "typical" demographic at a boxing gym), it may be necessary for a mentor or leader to "set a young man straight" and physically educate him as to his actual position and status within the group. Aside from that, though, the presence of a hierarchy actually works against needless intra-group violence, friction, and competition, so that the group can get to work on the proper task at hand.
posted by theorique at 3:08 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I thought this was a fascinating read on several levels, as the account of someone new to boxing, and of someone so keen on using the experience to define and "validate" his masculinity further. Ultimately he’s over-analyzing and over-intellectualizing that part, it’s understandable for him personally, but I am a bit wary of attaching so much significance to the connection between boxing and masculine identity and aggressivity in general, in social terms.
In the end, this is not even a sports discipline practiced by the masses - worldwide, most men who do sports while growing up do team sports, football being the biggest at global level, and that’s a sports discipline where physical contact is banned, and the aggressivity is channeled by a lot of rules. That’s just an example, there are more reasons why I’m a bit skeptical about reading too much into such a personal account and infer that boxing can serve as a general paradigm for maleness.
I’m not sure that was the author’s point in a general sense, either. I think he meant his own exploration of those concepts more as a testimony of his own experience, navigating his own identity. At least I enjoyed reading it enough from that personal angle. And I especially enjoyed the portrayal of the relationship with his trainer.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:15 PM on February 12, 2016
In the end, this is not even a sports discipline practiced by the masses - worldwide, most men who do sports while growing up do team sports, football being the biggest at global level, and that’s a sports discipline where physical contact is banned, and the aggressivity is channeled by a lot of rules. That’s just an example, there are more reasons why I’m a bit skeptical about reading too much into such a personal account and infer that boxing can serve as a general paradigm for maleness.
I’m not sure that was the author’s point in a general sense, either. I think he meant his own exploration of those concepts more as a testimony of his own experience, navigating his own identity. At least I enjoyed reading it enough from that personal angle. And I especially enjoyed the portrayal of the relationship with his trainer.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:15 PM on February 12, 2016
I don't want to join a gym that's full of horrible power dynamic stuff and pecking orders...
This is purely anecdotal experience, but I think it's dependent on how much the gym is invested in actual competitions/fights. More fitness-focused gyms usually just want you to come back and have a good time, whereas more competition-focused gyms tend to come with more obnoxious social content, but are also more focused on correcting technique than the fitness-focused gyms.
All of the gyms I've been in were mixed-gender but there were definitely more women in the less competitive environments.
posted by tautological at 4:20 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is purely anecdotal experience, but I think it's dependent on how much the gym is invested in actual competitions/fights. More fitness-focused gyms usually just want you to come back and have a good time, whereas more competition-focused gyms tend to come with more obnoxious social content, but are also more focused on correcting technique than the fitness-focused gyms.
All of the gyms I've been in were mixed-gender but there were definitely more women in the less competitive environments.
posted by tautological at 4:20 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Another factor: the same gym (or coach) can be experienced in a very, very different way by different people. The five-year-olds just starting out, the experienced amateurs, and elite professionals should have a training experience calibrated to their level. The pressure and challenge experienced by all of these different practitioners will vary dramatically.
posted by theorique at 4:28 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by theorique at 4:28 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
That’s why I say that, when everything else is equal, fighters are the best-adjusted males in the world
Not quite my experience, though it depends on what kind of fighting we're talking about.
Anyway put me down also as honestly not understanding the objection to having this article here. It suggests a few generalizations that I would not agree with but doesn't really insist on them - it seems more substantially about one person's lived experience (as we like to say around here).
posted by atoxyl at 4:29 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not quite my experience, though it depends on what kind of fighting we're talking about.
Anyway put me down also as honestly not understanding the objection to having this article here. It suggests a few generalizations that I would not agree with but doesn't really insist on them - it seems more substantially about one person's lived experience (as we like to say around here).
posted by atoxyl at 4:29 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Answering Frowner: I don't think toxicity is intrinsic to boxing gyms, so the one you're interested in certainly could be a good place. I went to an MMA gym for a while that had a good mix of men and women, and it had good camaraderie with less of the toxic masculinity stuff. For some reason BJJ / MMA gyms seem to attract more women and suffer from fewer of the toxic issues that seem to be part and parcel of hyper-masculine gyms. I haven't been to a boxing gym that avoided those issues, but based on my experience in MMA gyms (which really aren't all that different) it's entirely possible.
posted by Tehhund at 5:29 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Tehhund at 5:29 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
So I'm a cis woman & PTSD survivor who is taking martial arts and I recently had the experience of one of the instructors explaining to the class how to get your adrenaline up quickly when needed. And I was like, what the hell? There are people who don't go into fight or flight 11 times a day?? I am here to stop doing that.
But on reflection I understood that yeah, there are people in the world who want that.
And what we both want is some control over it, so that response becomes, in normal circumstances, an option rather than either unattainable or a requirement. Because then it's a choice.
This article reminded me of that.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:00 PM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
But on reflection I understood that yeah, there are people in the world who want that.
And what we both want is some control over it, so that response becomes, in normal circumstances, an option rather than either unattainable or a requirement. Because then it's a choice.
This article reminded me of that.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:00 PM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
To be a masculine male, is to be fundamentally alone. The men of any generation were expected to fight and die. This is not a "toxic" function of our species. It is disappointing that masculinity must be defined in terms of what hurts anyone's feelings. I know personally that I am disposable. As a man, I have learned that my feelings have nothing to do with how the world works.
posted by aurelius at 8:39 PM on February 12, 2016
posted by aurelius at 8:39 PM on February 12, 2016
Thank Jesus I'm not alienated from my feminine side.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:50 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by benito.strauss at 8:50 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was hoping the earlier comment was sarcasm, but apparently not. I don't know what to say, I mean you aren't wrong, but you are so very, very wrong.
posted by Meeks Ormand at 8:51 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Meeks Ormand at 8:51 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
(I'm guessing that was directed to the comment before mine.)
posted by benito.strauss at 8:56 PM on February 12, 2016
posted by benito.strauss at 8:56 PM on February 12, 2016
Yeah, I had aurelius in my name, but took it out and forgot to add it back. Though benito, you do make it sound like rejecting the idea that men are disposable is an inherently feminine idea, when really it's just one of the many things, like the glories of war, that our fathers lied to us about. But the idea that anyone's feelings have nothing to do with how the world works is so flabbergastingly backwards and short sighted that I have no idea where to even start.
posted by Meeks Ormand at 9:32 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Meeks Ormand at 9:32 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was trying to say that, even if I grant you an assumption that I don't actually think is true (i.e. masculinity = isolation), I still come to a different conclusion than you do (i.e. value your feminine side).
I've found some personal value in thinking of "feminine" and "masculine" aspects of personality, but only in the most poetical and Jungian archetypical ways, certainly not thinking of them as in any way limiting what people can or should do, and certainly not compelled in any way by biology.
And god knows how to deal with such statements. I can only imagine what a person has been through to reach the state where they conclude they are disposable and their feeling are valued by no-one. It almost seems a further unkindness to try to deny them any stoic peace they've manage to attain. I don't want the idea that this is "true masculinity" to spread, so I'm glad there are people who might argue against it, but I don't know where to start either.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:41 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've found some personal value in thinking of "feminine" and "masculine" aspects of personality, but only in the most poetical and Jungian archetypical ways, certainly not thinking of them as in any way limiting what people can or should do, and certainly not compelled in any way by biology.
And god knows how to deal with such statements. I can only imagine what a person has been through to reach the state where they conclude they are disposable and their feeling are valued by no-one. It almost seems a further unkindness to try to deny them any stoic peace they've manage to attain. I don't want the idea that this is "true masculinity" to spread, so I'm glad there are people who might argue against it, but I don't know where to start either.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:41 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
aurelius: Have you read The Way Of Men by Jack Donovan. His thesis in the book is very connected to what you're saying, that there's a common nucleus of masculinity that has existed across cultures, that still exists, and that can be defined and understood.
In ancient, tribal cultures, I don't think men were alone, at least not entirely. While they had very harsh and dangerous lives, they also had brotherhoods, codes of honor, and friendships with other men cemented by striving against a common foe (which could be opposing tribes, wild animals, famine, etc).
In his review of The Professor In The Cage (which I mentioned upthread as being strongly related to the OP article), Donovan approvingly quotes TPITC:
posted by theorique at 3:30 AM on February 13, 2016
In ancient, tribal cultures, I don't think men were alone, at least not entirely. While they had very harsh and dangerous lives, they also had brotherhoods, codes of honor, and friendships with other men cemented by striving against a common foe (which could be opposing tribes, wild animals, famine, etc).
In his review of The Professor In The Cage (which I mentioned upthread as being strongly related to the OP article), Donovan approvingly quotes TPITC:
[S]tereotypes about masculinity became so entrenched for a reason: they are mainly true. To be timid, muscularly weak, and emotionally shaky is now and has always been unmasculine. Masculinity is not a cultural invention. It is not the result of a conspiracy by men against women. It is a real thing that has evolved over millions of years as a response to the built-in competitive realities of male life.This passage sounds pretty harsh to me; it does not sound false.
posted by theorique at 3:30 AM on February 13, 2016
One need only look at the gushing homosocial friendships of a mere 150 years ago to see that an entirely other, non-stoic, non-alone vision of masculinity was available to men. The stoic marlboro man looking out over the desolate plain is a construction, a mask. Not necessarily a recent one, but a recurrent one.
posted by mittens at 6:34 AM on February 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by mittens at 6:34 AM on February 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
> This passage sounds pretty harsh to me; it does not sound false.
The list of things that don't sound false to people contains a bucket load of junk: Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve, White people are naturally superior to Africans, etc., etc.
> Masculinity is not a cultural invention. It is not the result of a conspiracy by men against women. It is a real thing that has evolved over millions of years as a response to the built-in competitive realities of male life. (Emphases mine.)
I've started to notice a pretty consistent pattern. People become enamored of an 80% true, culturally contingent thing, and they need to have it be as inevitable as the laws of physics. Catholics say it's "Natural Law". Secular folk say it's the "Result of Evolution".
posted by benito.strauss at 10:03 AM on February 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
The list of things that don't sound false to people contains a bucket load of junk: Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve, White people are naturally superior to Africans, etc., etc.
> Masculinity is not a cultural invention. It is not the result of a conspiracy by men against women. It is a real thing that has evolved over millions of years as a response to the built-in competitive realities of male life. (Emphases mine.)
I've started to notice a pretty consistent pattern. People become enamored of an 80% true, culturally contingent thing, and they need to have it be as inevitable as the laws of physics. Catholics say it's "Natural Law". Secular folk say it's the "Result of Evolution".
posted by benito.strauss at 10:03 AM on February 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I thought evo psych was pretty much dismissed nowadays? Anyway, it completely erases trans people. The trans men I know are all over the map as far as masculinity goes. Some look like frat bros or cowboys, and some wear glitter and nail polish. I see the same spectrum in cis men, especially in the gay community. I think trans men are more conscious of masculinity - both our own and others' - since we are creating it minute by minute. When I first came out I tried to be what I thought was masculine - walking and talking a certain way - but now I've relaxed into myself and realized that no matter how I comport myself, I am a man and therefore it's masculine behavior.
posted by desjardins at 10:44 AM on February 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 10:44 AM on February 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve, White people are naturally superior to Africans, etc., etc.
That's a bit of a guilt by association slur - the thing you say sounds like something even worse that other people say and is therefore discredited.
Masculinity is aspirational and performative - for both men born as men, as well as trans men. Nobody is perfectly masculine in and of himself, without struggle or sacrifice - masculinity is an identity that must be earned and conferred by other men in a tribe or brotherhood.
Across cultures and across history, it's pretty safe to say that men have never aspired to be "timid, muscularly weak, and emotionally shaky". On the contrary, the antipodes of those qualities are the ideals that are held up as the goals for aspirational masculinity.
posted by theorique at 4:31 PM on February 13, 2016
That's a bit of a guilt by association slur - the thing you say sounds like something even worse that other people say and is therefore discredited.
Masculinity is aspirational and performative - for both men born as men, as well as trans men. Nobody is perfectly masculine in and of himself, without struggle or sacrifice - masculinity is an identity that must be earned and conferred by other men in a tribe or brotherhood.
Across cultures and across history, it's pretty safe to say that men have never aspired to be "timid, muscularly weak, and emotionally shaky". On the contrary, the antipodes of those qualities are the ideals that are held up as the goals for aspirational masculinity.
posted by theorique at 4:31 PM on February 13, 2016
Actually, masculinity cannot be conferred from the outside, the only person who can make you a man is you. That's the whole point of the phrase "he is his own man', and why it's a compliment. Anyone trying to be somebody elses idea of a man is going to have a bad time.
posted by Meeks Ormand at 5:44 PM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Meeks Ormand at 5:44 PM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Whenever he talks about himself in the article, it makes sense, but whenever he starts expanding that to masculinity, it just makes me scratch my head. Sure, there are some masculine people who act that way, but I have a hard time imagining that it's anything other than a minority of men. It's like finding some negative trait that is popularly ascribed to women but most women don't actually engage in, and saying "this is an intrinsic aspect of femininity".
posted by Bugbread at 6:27 PM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 6:27 PM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Given one person says masculinity is an identity that must be earned and conferred by other men in a tribe or brotherhood, and another says the only person who can make you a man is you, I hope it's obvious why masculinity might seem like a bad trick being pulled on people. The very lack of consensus on what it is, what it does, how one gets it, helps with that sense that masculinity is first and foremost exclusionary (even if it is at the same time aspirational). And the deep misogyny of an aspiration not to be "timid, muscularly weak, and emotionally shaky"--all of which are the things culture accuses women of all the time--correlates masculinity with that violence I so subtly hinted at above.
I'm not saying it's incorrect to relate them, of course. All of it--the criticism of "bad" qualities as being "womanly" and thus not "manly", the secret game of deciding who gets to be a man, the fist and its force--are (maybe inextricably) entwined.
Damn, it is actually really hard to talk about this. No, actually, what's hard is to talk about it with any degree of abstraction. What's hard is trying to...trying to be polite and conciliatory and not give a long, long list of personal examples for why I think a basic distrust (if not outright fear, avoidance, separation from) of masculinity is necessary. What's hard is to talk about what it feels like when you have been forcibly excluded from masculinity, to the point where you don't understand what the gender even is. Being amab certainly isn't enough, on that everyone seems to agree. But whether what happens is some sort of internal working towards manhood, or some laurel crown bestowed by fellow men, or an acceptance that what you are is by its very nature masculine; all three assume something at their core, an identity, a sense of self that seems like the biggest trick of all. I've said it in other threads, I'll say it here because I still don't get it: I don't know what you're talking about, when you talk about being a man.
And the dissonance between the body I have and the understanding I lack and the history of violence that has always come from men, makes this topic so fraught that maybe I just shouldn't talk about it, I know (I know!) but when you're listening to people talk and they're all so certain they understand something about themselves, I think one is entitled to keep asking, what is it? Where does your certainty come from, and what are you certain of? It's in that sense that I see masculinity as aspirational: Maybe one day, if I read enough, and ask enough, I will finally understand it.
posted by mittens at 6:07 AM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying it's incorrect to relate them, of course. All of it--the criticism of "bad" qualities as being "womanly" and thus not "manly", the secret game of deciding who gets to be a man, the fist and its force--are (maybe inextricably) entwined.
Damn, it is actually really hard to talk about this. No, actually, what's hard is to talk about it with any degree of abstraction. What's hard is trying to...trying to be polite and conciliatory and not give a long, long list of personal examples for why I think a basic distrust (if not outright fear, avoidance, separation from) of masculinity is necessary. What's hard is to talk about what it feels like when you have been forcibly excluded from masculinity, to the point where you don't understand what the gender even is. Being amab certainly isn't enough, on that everyone seems to agree. But whether what happens is some sort of internal working towards manhood, or some laurel crown bestowed by fellow men, or an acceptance that what you are is by its very nature masculine; all three assume something at their core, an identity, a sense of self that seems like the biggest trick of all. I've said it in other threads, I'll say it here because I still don't get it: I don't know what you're talking about, when you talk about being a man.
And the dissonance between the body I have and the understanding I lack and the history of violence that has always come from men, makes this topic so fraught that maybe I just shouldn't talk about it, I know (I know!) but when you're listening to people talk and they're all so certain they understand something about themselves, I think one is entitled to keep asking, what is it? Where does your certainty come from, and what are you certain of? It's in that sense that I see masculinity as aspirational: Maybe one day, if I read enough, and ask enough, I will finally understand it.
posted by mittens at 6:07 AM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
when you're listening to people talk and they're all so certain they understand something about themselves, I think one is entitled to keep asking, what is it? Where does your certainty come from, and what are you certain of?
No, you're not entitled. I say "I'm certain I'm a man," you say, "Okay, I believe you," The End. You are not entitled to question me or the author or anyone else who tells you who they are. If someone is telling you what you should be or think or do, then by all means, have at them. But me? No. Your intellectual curiosity does not trump my right to define myself.
posted by desjardins at 9:24 AM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
No, you're not entitled. I say "I'm certain I'm a man," you say, "Okay, I believe you," The End. You are not entitled to question me or the author or anyone else who tells you who they are. If someone is telling you what you should be or think or do, then by all means, have at them. But me? No. Your intellectual curiosity does not trump my right to define myself.
posted by desjardins at 9:24 AM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
(i apologize and withdraw. if i have not made it clear that this is more on the level of my own existential crisis rather than an intellectual curiosity, then that is my problem, my failure to step back and ask myself whether i can communicate clearly and inoffensively on this particular topic.
i can see why in context, my absolute insanity over this would be offensive, and my trying to understand what people mean when they talk about this, could come across as some very nasty stuff.
it won't make it better to say this, i guess, but i don't question anybody's identity but my own. i take it as given that people are who they say they are. and if i have given the impression that i feel otherwise, then i have let my own neurosis on this issue get the better of my communication. sorry to anyone i have pissed off on this thread; if the topic comes up again, i will think twice before leaping in.)
posted by mittens at 9:52 AM on February 14, 2016
i can see why in context, my absolute insanity over this would be offensive, and my trying to understand what people mean when they talk about this, could come across as some very nasty stuff.
it won't make it better to say this, i guess, but i don't question anybody's identity but my own. i take it as given that people are who they say they are. and if i have given the impression that i feel otherwise, then i have let my own neurosis on this issue get the better of my communication. sorry to anyone i have pissed off on this thread; if the topic comes up again, i will think twice before leaping in.)
posted by mittens at 9:52 AM on February 14, 2016
I guess where I come from is that gender is complicated. To repurpose Marx, I can make my masculinity but not under the terms of my own choosing - I have to negotiate all kinds of cultural histories that pull in many directions but that mostly include "to be a man involves figuring out where you stand in terms of fighting, physical strength, stoicism, showing emotions and the stuff that is coded 'feminine'". You can say "as a man I reject the notion that [thing]" or "as a man I want to be able to nurture and express my feelings and show weakness" or "as a man, I want to be able to have friendships with other men that are caring and not based primarily in competition and violence" but you still have to think through the whole masculinity narrative.
I think that when folks just totally go to town on "look, masculinity is terrible, it's a myth, it's stupid and violent", that can be pretty difficult on trans men and on cis men who are trying to figure out how not to be He-Man, because we don't have the option of just saying 'well, to hell with masculinity then". It's still something we have to figure out how to deal with - even if 'dealing with' is mostly about critique and rejection - because we live in a patriarchal society that has been totally built around these narratives.
Masculinity isn't the equal-and-opposite of femininity - to say "femininity is terrible, it's a myth, it's stupid" is far more harmful, especially to trans women, because all women live under tremendous material pressure to perform gender, and because (IMO) femininity has a much higher ration of socially-good traits to socially-meh ones than masculinity, and because masculinity is built on subjugating what is feminine. Everyone should be able to express femininity; there are aspects of masculinity that I think should just be dropped. But I still feel like there's this element of transphobia in saying "well, masculinity just sucks then, it is a made-up thing, why are you buying into it", and I think that a lot of people on metafilter who would hesitate to say something analagous to transfeminine people about femininity feel more comfortable than they should saying this stuff to transmasculine people.
For me personally, I find it okay to critique and unpack what is meant by "masculinity", but I get kind of uncomfortable when that critique slips over into a lack of understanding of why trans men might want/need to perform certain kinds of masculinity, or a lack of understanding of how it's not just a matter of a society full of asshole bros choosing to reify toxic masculinity, and if they'd stop everything would be fine.
I also wanted to say that a lot of the intense, emotional friendships between straight men mentioned upthread were explicitly built on the idea that women were no good for companionship, only for sex and housekeeping. Of course you had your passionate friendships with other men, because who would you talk about poetry and dreams and ideas with? A woman? That useless, carnal, lazy thing afflicted with a wandering womb? I'm not trying to say "ha ha clearly men can either have emotional relationships only with women or only with other men"...I'm just saying that emotional friendships with men are totally compatible with the subjugation of women; men having feelings and dressing fancy and so on does not have much to do with ending patriarchy.
posted by Frowner at 10:18 AM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think that when folks just totally go to town on "look, masculinity is terrible, it's a myth, it's stupid and violent", that can be pretty difficult on trans men and on cis men who are trying to figure out how not to be He-Man, because we don't have the option of just saying 'well, to hell with masculinity then". It's still something we have to figure out how to deal with - even if 'dealing with' is mostly about critique and rejection - because we live in a patriarchal society that has been totally built around these narratives.
Masculinity isn't the equal-and-opposite of femininity - to say "femininity is terrible, it's a myth, it's stupid" is far more harmful, especially to trans women, because all women live under tremendous material pressure to perform gender, and because (IMO) femininity has a much higher ration of socially-good traits to socially-meh ones than masculinity, and because masculinity is built on subjugating what is feminine. Everyone should be able to express femininity; there are aspects of masculinity that I think should just be dropped. But I still feel like there's this element of transphobia in saying "well, masculinity just sucks then, it is a made-up thing, why are you buying into it", and I think that a lot of people on metafilter who would hesitate to say something analagous to transfeminine people about femininity feel more comfortable than they should saying this stuff to transmasculine people.
For me personally, I find it okay to critique and unpack what is meant by "masculinity", but I get kind of uncomfortable when that critique slips over into a lack of understanding of why trans men might want/need to perform certain kinds of masculinity, or a lack of understanding of how it's not just a matter of a society full of asshole bros choosing to reify toxic masculinity, and if they'd stop everything would be fine.
I also wanted to say that a lot of the intense, emotional friendships between straight men mentioned upthread were explicitly built on the idea that women were no good for companionship, only for sex and housekeeping. Of course you had your passionate friendships with other men, because who would you talk about poetry and dreams and ideas with? A woman? That useless, carnal, lazy thing afflicted with a wandering womb? I'm not trying to say "ha ha clearly men can either have emotional relationships only with women or only with other men"...I'm just saying that emotional friendships with men are totally compatible with the subjugation of women; men having feelings and dressing fancy and so on does not have much to do with ending patriarchy.
posted by Frowner at 10:18 AM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think that when folks just totally go to town on "look, masculinity is terrible, it's a myth, it's stupid and violent", that can be pretty difficult on trans men and on cis men who are trying to figure out how not to be He-Man, because we don't have the option of just saying 'well, to hell with masculinity then".
It's hard on pretty much all men, cis/trans alike - you're attacking something foundational to their identity. I would guess that it's harder on trans men - the analogy that comes to mind is that people are trying their hardest to tear down a building that you've been wanting to live in your whole life, just as you're entering that building and figuring out how to live there, what to put where where, etc.
It's also tough on conventional, strong, good guy, masculine men who are informed that their identity as men is toxic and contributes to rape culture or whatever. They could retort, "I'm not the bad guy here: I don't beat my wife, I don't go gay-bashing, I don't rape women, I use my strength and masculine energy for good" - and they would be right. Masculine strength and energy can be expressed in a toxic way, no question about it (this is why we have laws). But masculine strength and energy are not intrinsically toxic. Too many approaches to "updating" masculinity change it into something that is indistinguishable from "be a good citizen" or "follow the rules" - that is, something vaguely pro-social, non-gendered and not unique to men.
femininity has a much higher ration of socially-good traits to socially-meh ones than masculinity
Femininity certainly has more socially-stabilizing traits. In a complex, highly-managed and regulated society, such as the one that we have in the West, girls' attributes tend to map better into conventional schooling and workplaces, while boys are more likely to fight, be disruptive, get assessed to have ADD and prescribed medication to make them sit still, and so forth. Masculine traits tend to work better for societies in expansionist or conflict stages (conquering the Wild West, the Gold Rush, various wars, the Industrial Revolution, etc).
posted by theorique at 12:58 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's hard on pretty much all men, cis/trans alike - you're attacking something foundational to their identity. I would guess that it's harder on trans men - the analogy that comes to mind is that people are trying their hardest to tear down a building that you've been wanting to live in your whole life, just as you're entering that building and figuring out how to live there, what to put where where, etc.
It's also tough on conventional, strong, good guy, masculine men who are informed that their identity as men is toxic and contributes to rape culture or whatever. They could retort, "I'm not the bad guy here: I don't beat my wife, I don't go gay-bashing, I don't rape women, I use my strength and masculine energy for good" - and they would be right. Masculine strength and energy can be expressed in a toxic way, no question about it (this is why we have laws). But masculine strength and energy are not intrinsically toxic. Too many approaches to "updating" masculinity change it into something that is indistinguishable from "be a good citizen" or "follow the rules" - that is, something vaguely pro-social, non-gendered and not unique to men.
femininity has a much higher ration of socially-good traits to socially-meh ones than masculinity
Femininity certainly has more socially-stabilizing traits. In a complex, highly-managed and regulated society, such as the one that we have in the West, girls' attributes tend to map better into conventional schooling and workplaces, while boys are more likely to fight, be disruptive, get assessed to have ADD and prescribed medication to make them sit still, and so forth. Masculine traits tend to work better for societies in expansionist or conflict stages (conquering the Wild West, the Gold Rush, various wars, the Industrial Revolution, etc).
posted by theorique at 12:58 PM on February 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
There seems to be a kind of methodological issue here, do you start by defining the group and working inwards to the individual, or do you start with the individual and work your way out to the group. Neither approach is wrong, but one does need to be aware of which approach one is using and that they can give very different answers to the same question. So if you aren't happy with the answers your approach is giving you, it might be time to switch to a different one.
posted by Meeks Ormand at 2:13 PM on February 14, 2016
posted by Meeks Ormand at 2:13 PM on February 14, 2016
Something else I've been thinking about enacting gender, recently: your ability to be queer or trans and transgress gender norms can be very, very class-marked and very regional. For instance, I live in a fairly liberal city and work at a place where there's some tolerance for visibly queer people. (Trans people, not so much, which is another thing that keeps matters where they stand for me.) I can't wear, like, a spangled glitter tuxedo to work, but I can be read as a butch woman at work and wear a lot of men's clothes. I couldn't get a promotion like this, of course, but I'm okay with that. Basically, the fact that my gender reads as kind of neither-nor is possible and safe here, and if/when I actually transition, I anticipate that I'll be able to maintain at least some gender-nonconformity.
However: I'm constantly struck by the number of shitty interactions I've had in other places, ranging from the south to Indiana to fucking Boston, which I really did not expect. If I lived in one of those places and I transitioned, you better believe I'd be enacting a pretty standard masculinity, because I like my facial bones the way they are, thank you, and I'd like to be able to hold down a job. And I'm pretty sure that if I had a lousier job here, that would be my main option, too.
I read a lot of cool stuff online where people are queering gender and being visibly non-conforming in all kinds of neat ways, and it seems like a lot of them live in San Francisco or New York or maybe Portland, and a lot of them have good jobs, often in tech. I would lose my job if I wore a tie to work, for instance, and I know that's not true for a lot of butch women or nonbinary AFAB people in other situations. I know someone here who transitioned and whose working class position was promptly eliminated - in an otherwise fairly liberal environment. I also know of some people who push the boundaries on normative gender in much more conservative places and much shittier work environments, and I know how extremely high a price some of them have paid. You can live in Transphobia, PA and dress and act non-conforming and pay the price, but it's not fair to expect that of everyone.
It's not that I'm really into the whole "I have to be able to fight in order to be a man" business - actually, I'm really, really not into it - but I think it's great to be aware that being trans and not incorporating some normative gender stuff is partially a matter of having economic privilege or luck about where you live.
posted by Frowner at 2:57 PM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
However: I'm constantly struck by the number of shitty interactions I've had in other places, ranging from the south to Indiana to fucking Boston, which I really did not expect. If I lived in one of those places and I transitioned, you better believe I'd be enacting a pretty standard masculinity, because I like my facial bones the way they are, thank you, and I'd like to be able to hold down a job. And I'm pretty sure that if I had a lousier job here, that would be my main option, too.
I read a lot of cool stuff online where people are queering gender and being visibly non-conforming in all kinds of neat ways, and it seems like a lot of them live in San Francisco or New York or maybe Portland, and a lot of them have good jobs, often in tech. I would lose my job if I wore a tie to work, for instance, and I know that's not true for a lot of butch women or nonbinary AFAB people in other situations. I know someone here who transitioned and whose working class position was promptly eliminated - in an otherwise fairly liberal environment. I also know of some people who push the boundaries on normative gender in much more conservative places and much shittier work environments, and I know how extremely high a price some of them have paid. You can live in Transphobia, PA and dress and act non-conforming and pay the price, but it's not fair to expect that of everyone.
It's not that I'm really into the whole "I have to be able to fight in order to be a man" business - actually, I'm really, really not into it - but I think it's great to be aware that being trans and not incorporating some normative gender stuff is partially a matter of having economic privilege or luck about where you live.
posted by Frowner at 2:57 PM on February 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
Frowner, there's a really good film called Deep Run about a trans man in rural South Carolina. It illustrates a lot of the class and conformance issues you brought up. Initially he identified as a lesbian, which as you can imagine, didn't go well in his very religious community. When he started passing as a man, that caused its own issues.
I for one could not live with the anxiety of "going stealth" (where no one knows you're trans) and so as much as I say I'd like to live in a remote mountain community, I think I'll have to stick to more liberal areas unless there is some kind of nationwide sea change over the next 10 years.
My workplace transition went extremely smoothly and I think that being in a white collar, technical occupation (albeit in a fairly conservative city) helped a lot. Even though I'm not consistently read as male, I am pretty binary, so I don't know what it would be like if I were genderqueer. I think it would be confusing for people. Fortunately, I don't experience that inner struggle and I'm fine wearing traditionally male clothes and presenting as male 100% of the time.
posted by desjardins at 3:28 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I for one could not live with the anxiety of "going stealth" (where no one knows you're trans) and so as much as I say I'd like to live in a remote mountain community, I think I'll have to stick to more liberal areas unless there is some kind of nationwide sea change over the next 10 years.
My workplace transition went extremely smoothly and I think that being in a white collar, technical occupation (albeit in a fairly conservative city) helped a lot. Even though I'm not consistently read as male, I am pretty binary, so I don't know what it would be like if I were genderqueer. I think it would be confusing for people. Fortunately, I don't experience that inner struggle and I'm fine wearing traditionally male clothes and presenting as male 100% of the time.
posted by desjardins at 3:28 PM on February 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I enjoyed reading this, thank you.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:40 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:40 PM on February 17, 2016
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No.
No, they don't.
posted by Mezentian at 6:05 AM on February 12, 2016 [8 favorites]