“It rubs the lotion on its skin.”
February 16, 2016 9:35 AM Subscribe
'Silence of the Lambs' at 25: The Complete Buffalo Bill Story by Kory Grow [Rolling Stone]
- The Silence of the Lambs still screams after 25 years by Chris Nashawaty [Entertainment Weekly]
Twenty-five years have passed since the film first graced silver screens on Valentine's Day in 1991. While critics and film buffs have rightly parsed every eerie eye twitch Anthony Hopkins made in his Oscar-winning portrayal of the nefarious, cannibalistic Dr. Hannibal Lecter, the behind-the-scenes story of Levine's harrowing, intimidating interpretation of the puzzling murderer Gumb who struts naked, plies Martin with lotion and raises moths (and "skins his humps," to use the grisly description of the way he kills given by Jodie Foster's Special Agent Clarice Starling) remains largely untold.Related:
- The Silence of the Lambs still screams after 25 years by Chris Nashawaty [Entertainment Weekly]
1. It’s the rare movie adaptation that’s actually better than the book… and the book’s great.-The feminist failure of “Silence of the Lambs” by Noah Berlatsky [Quartz]
2. It’s a master class in storytelling.
3. It’s cast perfectly, right down to the tiniest roles.
4. Jodie Foster was a new kind of movie heroine.
5. Is it or isn’t it a horror movie?
It’s true that the film is self-consciously feminist. It consistently presents Clarice as a lone woman in male enclaves—stepping onto an elevator filled with suited FBI men, or milling about in a room full of male cops before an autopsy. By virtue of her gender, she’s constantly dealing with unwanted sexual advances. The smarmy psychiatrist who works with Lecter hits on her, as does the doctor who consults with her about the autopsy. When she’s jogging on the FBI training grounds, a fellow trainee turns around to look at her butt. And her relationship with Lecter is tinged with sexualized, sadistic abuse, as he forces her to discuss traumatic details from her childhood in return for information about her serial killer case.- The Silence of the Lambs: A Twisted Rom-Com That’s Perfect for Valentine’s Day by Scott Beggs [Vanity Fair]
Boy meets girl. Sparks fly. One of them is a cannibal. What could be more romantic? A bright young woman walks tentatively into the inner sanctum of an infamous man. Their initial meeting is caustic, but sparks fly, and soon they get to know each other on a profoundly intimate level. That’s a scene from last year’s Valentine’s Day hit Fifty Shades of Grey. And also from 1991’s Valentine’s Day hit, The Silence of the Lambs.- PETA puts in bid to make Silence of the Lambs house an 'empathy museum. by Amanda Holpuch [The Guardian]
“A landmark home … featured in the Silence of the Lambs movie,” begins the realtor’s pitch for the 1906 home in Perry Township, Pennsylvania, which went on the market last year and saw its price dropped in December from $300,000 to $250,000. An offer has finally been made, and it comes bound up in a highly unusual proposition. The anti-animal cruelty charity Peta (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) wants to turn the house into a museum where people can wear the skins of abused animals.- Why We Need Another 'Silence of the Lambs' by Emily Gaudette [Inverse]
In February 1991, Jonathan Demme’s Silence of the Lambs, a horror film based on a series of paperback novels about serial killers, was released. Critics were baffled at the film’s ability to make pulpy, shocking genre work feel intelligent; The New Yorker called it “artful pulp — tabloid material treated with intelligence and care and a weird kind of sensitivity.” Though horror has grown in the last twenty five years into a genre with a large scope, the Academy has become disinterested in honoring films that resemble pulp. It seems odd, considering today’s cinema, that Silence of the Lambs won Best Picture, despite critics adoring its ”chilling intensity” and ”unsettling” use of gore. It would be difficult to describe any of the films currently nominated for Best Picture as “chilling”, unless one was referring to the literal frozen hell-scape in The Revenant. This is unfortunate, since 2015 was a year marked by auteur-driven horror.- Silence of the Lambs (1991) Review by Roger Ebert [Roger Ebert]
If the movie were not so well made, indeed, it would be ludicrous. Material like this invites filmmakers to take chances and punishes them mercilessly when they fail. That's especially true when the movie is based on best-selling material a lot of people are familiar with. ("The Silence of the Lambs" was preceded by another Thomas Harris book about Hannibal Lecter, which was made into the film "Manhunter.") The director, Jonathan Demme, is no doubt aware of the hazards but does not hesitate to take chances. His first scene with Hopkins could have gone over the top, and in the hands of a lesser actor almost certainly would have. But Hopkins is in the great British tradition of actors who internalize instead of overacting, and his Hannibal Lecter has certain endearing parallels with his famous London stage performance in "Pravda," where he played a press baron not unlike Rupert Murdoch. There are moments when Hopkins, as Lecter, goes berserk, but Demme wisely lets a little of this go a long way, so that the lasting impression is of his evil intelligence- Timeless Horror: The 25th Anniversary of "The Silence of the Lambs" by Susan Wloszczyna [Roger Ebert]
The question, of course, is why this movie about a young female FBI trainee whose stamina and smarts are put to the test by her father-figure mentor, the seductively twisted psychiatrist and the murderous madman who is attacking innocent young women? Just what made “Lambs” such a standout achievement that it overcame any prejudices held against disturbing storylines, especially one that is built around such unsavory elements as crazed serial killers, terrifying encounters in the dark, graphic language, flashes of nudity and mutilation, mostly off-screen violence and cannibalism—a predilection of Hopkins’ brilliant yet deranged doc Hannibal Lecter.- 6 Memorable 'Silence Of The Lambs' Parodies For The Film's 25th Anniversary by Mallory Carra [Bustle]
1. The Silence of the Hams [YouTube]
2. Silence! The Music [YouTube]
3. Loaded Weapon clip. [YouTube]
4. Clerks 2 clip. [YouTube]
5. Family Guy clip. [YouTube]
6. Billy Crystal's Entrance (1992) Academy Awards [YouTube]
The Criterion Contraption's review is also worth a read.
I re-watched this a few years ago and it held up remarkably well, save for a few quibbles about some of Lecter's physical feats; how is it that a 55 year-old man repeatedly overpowers and kills trained law enforcement officers half his age? It's like the old man version of Waif-Fu that Liam Neeson's character in Taken also wields. And theatrically stringing up that guard's corpse in his cell would have taken an awful lot of physical effort (and time, which is generally at a premium for people escaping from prison).
/ nitpick
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:54 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I re-watched this a few years ago and it held up remarkably well, save for a few quibbles about some of Lecter's physical feats; how is it that a 55 year-old man repeatedly overpowers and kills trained law enforcement officers half his age? It's like the old man version of Waif-Fu that Liam Neeson's character in Taken also wields. And theatrically stringing up that guard's corpse in his cell would have taken an awful lot of physical effort (and time, which is generally at a premium for people escaping from prison).
/ nitpick
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:54 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Buffalo Bill was Captain Stottlemeyer?!?! How the hell did I miss that?
posted by lyssabee at 9:54 AM on February 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by lyssabee at 9:54 AM on February 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
I remember the first bit of film criticism I read at a young age mentioned how camera work can put us in the mind of a character by using SoTL as an example . Everything with Clarice is shot at her eye level almost, very naturalistic, almost documentary. Flat, shot reverse shot -etc. This grounds the film in :reality" so the macabre and surreal horror elements stand out more and have a shade of :real": on them.
I am still pissed however that Ardelia got cut from the movie, although Demme wanted to shoot the thing word for word..
posted by The Whelk at 10:03 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am still pissed however that Ardelia got cut from the movie, although Demme wanted to shoot the thing word for word..
posted by The Whelk at 10:03 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Personal aside: back in the 90s, my parents would always go out on Fridays and leave my sister and I home alone. We'd always make a trip to the local video-store/Blockbuster and pick up two films, one for me and one for my sister. I can recall choosing this film at age 14. I probably should not have been allowed to rent/view the film but my parents were fairly relaxed with their censorship and let me watch whatever I wanted.
I vividly recall that moment when 'Buffalo Bill' tucks his penis underneath himself and is dancing to the music. Along with the rest of is "weird" performance. Sadly, that bit of film influenced my idea and interpretation of what a person who is homosexual/transgender was for the longest time, embarrassingly long. I did eventually grow up and realize that this is not an association that I should make. Kind of a learning moment. Shows how deeply influential a film can be and how important it is to represent people from the LGBTQ community in film in ways that are not as negatively stereotypical as this one.
I'm not even sure if the film explicity states that 'Buffalo Bill' is homosexual, I don't think it does. But some how in my mind I made that association. At that time, at that particular age, I had this notion that he was wrong and that his sexuality was wrong. I am sure much of that was due to other artistic/cultural representation and portrayals of people who cross-dress (in film, tv, etc.).
I'm glad I grew up and started to think more critically about how people are represented in different mediums and what that says about how culture and society views those individuals.
posted by Fizz at 10:09 AM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I vividly recall that moment when 'Buffalo Bill' tucks his penis underneath himself and is dancing to the music. Along with the rest of is "weird" performance. Sadly, that bit of film influenced my idea and interpretation of what a person who is homosexual/transgender was for the longest time, embarrassingly long. I did eventually grow up and realize that this is not an association that I should make. Kind of a learning moment. Shows how deeply influential a film can be and how important it is to represent people from the LGBTQ community in film in ways that are not as negatively stereotypical as this one.
I'm not even sure if the film explicity states that 'Buffalo Bill' is homosexual, I don't think it does. But some how in my mind I made that association. At that time, at that particular age, I had this notion that he was wrong and that his sexuality was wrong. I am sure much of that was due to other artistic/cultural representation and portrayals of people who cross-dress (in film, tv, etc.).
I'm glad I grew up and started to think more critically about how people are represented in different mediums and what that says about how culture and society views those individuals.
posted by Fizz at 10:09 AM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's too bad that Hannibal got cancelled. Bryan Fuller would have had a fucking field day with Jame Gumb.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:09 AM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:09 AM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
I've had Put the F*cking Lotion in the Basket stuck in my head since I first heard it like 10 years ago. I sing verses from it occasionally to woo romantic partners.
posted by dephlogisticated at 10:10 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by dephlogisticated at 10:10 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
My then-boyfriend and I went to see this on Valentine's Day in 1991 and neither of us knew anything about it, but we both liked Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins so what the hey. We were out on our Valentine's Day date of "tea and a movie," meaning we had "High Tea" at the Drake Hotel in Chicago and then went across the street to the (now gone) movie theater.
We'd each had about a pot of caffeinated tea before seeing the film.
I remember screaming while nothing was happening on the screen, just from pure suspense and my caffeinated state.
posted by chonus at 10:13 AM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
We'd each had about a pot of caffeinated tea before seeing the film.
I remember screaming while nothing was happening on the screen, just from pure suspense and my caffeinated state.
posted by chonus at 10:13 AM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
...Ready when you are, Sergeant Pembry.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:25 AM on February 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 10:25 AM on February 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
It’s the rare movie adaptation that’s actually better than the book… and the book’s great.
Yes. Yes it is. And Hannibal, which I'm assuming he wrote knowing that it would be turned into a movie, sucks so, so bad.
posted by Melismata at 10:28 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes. Yes it is. And Hannibal, which I'm assuming he wrote knowing that it would be turned into a movie, sucks so, so bad.
posted by Melismata at 10:28 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
a few quibbles about some of Lecter's physical feats
The thing that's always struck me about this Lecter is that he's not really a man at all, but rather a demon - the way in which he's contained, the fear they have of coming anywhere near him, let alone touching him, suggests a supernatural force rather than a human being. Just a supernatural force that looks like a middle-aged schlub. The way Demme films it reinforces this - the "real world" bits are very, very mundane to a heightened degree, hyperreal - the victim's bedroom Clarice visits before reaching on is so lifelike you can smell the mold. When you get closer to the serial killers in person, the world becomes fantastical - obviously Lecter's dungeon or the red-curtained temporary facility he escapes from, but also Gumb's house - as Clarice goes deeper and deeper into it it becomes less real, more of a dragon's lair.
Occasionally it turns up on TV and I'm surprised at how astonishing it still is, even though I've seen it so many times. Demme has rather slipped under the radar, but some of his work is amazing (though I prefer the curiosities like Swimming to Cambodia and Stop Making Sense over his "proper" movies).
posted by Grangousier at 10:29 AM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
The thing that's always struck me about this Lecter is that he's not really a man at all, but rather a demon - the way in which he's contained, the fear they have of coming anywhere near him, let alone touching him, suggests a supernatural force rather than a human being. Just a supernatural force that looks like a middle-aged schlub. The way Demme films it reinforces this - the "real world" bits are very, very mundane to a heightened degree, hyperreal - the victim's bedroom Clarice visits before reaching on is so lifelike you can smell the mold. When you get closer to the serial killers in person, the world becomes fantastical - obviously Lecter's dungeon or the red-curtained temporary facility he escapes from, but also Gumb's house - as Clarice goes deeper and deeper into it it becomes less real, more of a dragon's lair.
Occasionally it turns up on TV and I'm surprised at how astonishing it still is, even though I've seen it so many times. Demme has rather slipped under the radar, but some of his work is amazing (though I prefer the curiosities like Swimming to Cambodia and Stop Making Sense over his "proper" movies).
posted by Grangousier at 10:29 AM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
Buffalo Bill was Captain Stottlemeyer?!?! How the hell did I miss that?
Not mentioned in the article is that he was also Alan Shephard in "From The Earth to the Moon."
He'd probably find it refreshing that I would likely gush about his performance in that miniseries rather than quote lines from Silence, as I imagine he gets a lot when he meets fans.
posted by 1367 at 10:34 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not mentioned in the article is that he was also Alan Shephard in "From The Earth to the Moon."
He'd probably find it refreshing that I would likely gush about his performance in that miniseries rather than quote lines from Silence, as I imagine he gets a lot when he meets fans.
posted by 1367 at 10:34 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
which I'm assuming he wrote knowing that it would be turned into a movie
It was written basically at gunpoint, they told him if he didn't write a sequel they;d have someone else do it, so he wrote it trying to make it as unfilmable as possible.
Demme's adaption of The Manchurian Candidate is pretty good, it has that fervish old-lefty 90s paranoia that seemed over the top at the time and now reads as charmingly quaint.
posted by The Whelk at 10:35 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
It was written basically at gunpoint, they told him if he didn't write a sequel they;d have someone else do it, so he wrote it trying to make it as unfilmable as possible.
Demme's adaption of The Manchurian Candidate is pretty good, it has that fervish old-lefty 90s paranoia that seemed over the top at the time and now reads as charmingly quaint.
posted by The Whelk at 10:35 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Both Hopkins and Foster had memorable moments in their Academy Award speeches. Best known, perhaps, is Foster's gleeful "quid pro quo, Doctor Lecter?" But I was impressed and pleased at Hopkins going out of his way to praise Levine's performance, which he rightly called "brave."
My favorite Ardelia Mapp line from the book that never made it into the movie is when Starling is pondering her problems in her dormitory bed, then mutters to herself, "Fuck this," and Mapp quips, "You're over there corrupting a moron, aren't you?"
posted by Gelatin at 10:36 AM on February 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
My favorite Ardelia Mapp line from the book that never made it into the movie is when Starling is pondering her problems in her dormitory bed, then mutters to herself, "Fuck this," and Mapp quips, "You're over there corrupting a moron, aren't you?"
posted by Gelatin at 10:36 AM on February 16, 2016 [7 favorites]
how is it that a 55 year-old man repeatedly overpowers and kills trained law enforcement officers half his age?
Well, first, at least one of the officers (the one played by Charles Napier) isn't exactly a spring chicken, and the other one is grey-haired. The book makes it a bit clearer, though; Lecter deliberately lulls the guards into thinking that his reputation has been exaggerated, then concentrates intensely during the brief window of opportunity while he's picked the handcuffs (they originally put him in a sort of leather straightjacket while they delivered meals and picked up the trays, but decided that that was too time consuming--there's a bit of "carrying the idiot ball" in that) and they're both within reach. (The book has a very good description of Glenn Gould's recording of Bach's Goldberg Variations that's playing in the background seeming to slow down as he concentrates.) It's not so much about his strength or even speed so much as timing.
That's in The Silence of the Lambs, of course. By Hannibal, Harris has decided that Lecter is a superman after all, and blatantly says as much.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:37 AM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Well, first, at least one of the officers (the one played by Charles Napier) isn't exactly a spring chicken, and the other one is grey-haired. The book makes it a bit clearer, though; Lecter deliberately lulls the guards into thinking that his reputation has been exaggerated, then concentrates intensely during the brief window of opportunity while he's picked the handcuffs (they originally put him in a sort of leather straightjacket while they delivered meals and picked up the trays, but decided that that was too time consuming--there's a bit of "carrying the idiot ball" in that) and they're both within reach. (The book has a very good description of Glenn Gould's recording of Bach's Goldberg Variations that's playing in the background seeming to slow down as he concentrates.) It's not so much about his strength or even speed so much as timing.
That's in The Silence of the Lambs, of course. By Hannibal, Harris has decided that Lecter is a superman after all, and blatantly says as much.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:37 AM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
the "real world" bits are very, very mundane to a heightened degree, hyperreal - the victim's bedroom Clarice visits before reaching on is so lifelike you can smell the mold. When you get closer to the serial killers in person, the world becomes fantastical - obviously Lecter's dungeon or the red-curtained temporary facility he escapes from, but also Gumb's house - as Clarice goes deeper and deeper into it it becomes less real, more of a dragon's lair.
a technique borrowed for the TV show and used well, considering as it starts as a police procedural with weird arty fringe elements that slowly becomes a goth opera tone poem
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
a technique borrowed for the TV show and used well, considering as it starts as a police procedural with weird arty fringe elements that slowly becomes a goth opera tone poem
posted by The Whelk at 10:38 AM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also Book Lecter has six fingers and maroon eyes soooo
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I hadn't seen the film yet when the awards were up that year. I forget which awards show nominated it for best score, but I remember they played a clip of it when announcing the nominees, and even just hearing that clip - totally devoid of any context in my mind - made me want to curl up in the fetal position and hide behind my mommy.
I've told this story before, I am telling it again - years ago, I was at one of my old jobs and was passing by one of the printers in the office pool. At the time there were a few people making passive-aggressive memos trying to encourage other people to pull their weight when it came to restocking the printers and picking up after themselves. On this printer, I saw someone had taped a sign to the side, which they'd printed themselves: a single line of all-caps boldface type:
PUT THE PAPER IN THE PRINTER AND PUT THE WRAPPER IN THE TRASH
Something about the wording or the tone or something struck me, and I grabbed a pen off someone's desk and wrote underneath, also in all-caps:
IT PUTS THE LOTION IN THE BASKET
And I went on my way.
I don't think anyone ever noticed it was me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:40 AM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
I've told this story before, I am telling it again - years ago, I was at one of my old jobs and was passing by one of the printers in the office pool. At the time there were a few people making passive-aggressive memos trying to encourage other people to pull their weight when it came to restocking the printers and picking up after themselves. On this printer, I saw someone had taped a sign to the side, which they'd printed themselves: a single line of all-caps boldface type:
Something about the wording or the tone or something struck me, and I grabbed a pen off someone's desk and wrote underneath, also in all-caps:
And I went on my way.
I don't think anyone ever noticed it was me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:40 AM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Twenty five years? I remember when they were filming it here in Pittsburgh and vicinity; it was the biggest thing to happen here in long time and lots of local news time was taken up with coverage of the production. A friend of mine played on of the police troupers when Lecter's escaping.
Local SotL trivia: Chef Brockett from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood played an inmate in one the cells next to Lecter's.
posted by octothorpe at 10:58 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Local SotL trivia: Chef Brockett from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood played an inmate in one the cells next to Lecter's.
posted by octothorpe at 10:58 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
The greatest parody of Silence of the Lambs: Gregory - Diary of a Nutcase.
"I can smell her chips!"
posted by veedubya at 11:13 AM on February 16, 2016
"I can smell her chips!"
posted by veedubya at 11:13 AM on February 16, 2016
The thing that's always struck me about this Lecter is that he's not really a man at all, but rather a demon - the way in which he's contained, the fear they have of coming anywhere near him, let alone touching him, suggests a supernatural force rather than a human being.
Exactly -- this is why this film is celebrated and its sequel, er, not, Lecter is presented on the one hand as a murderer not much more outré than some real-world criminals, but at the same time we see him imprisoned like a supernatural being, held far underground in a cage of glass behind seven guards and seven gates. When he escapes, he does so through cunning and misdirection and literally wearing the face of one of his captors. It is something Loki would have done.
In the sequel he walks around, shops, goes to the theatre, talks on the phone, prepares meals. Small scope for a mythical character there.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:20 AM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
Exactly -- this is why this film is celebrated and its sequel, er, not, Lecter is presented on the one hand as a murderer not much more outré than some real-world criminals, but at the same time we see him imprisoned like a supernatural being, held far underground in a cage of glass behind seven guards and seven gates. When he escapes, he does so through cunning and misdirection and literally wearing the face of one of his captors. It is something Loki would have done.
In the sequel he walks around, shops, goes to the theatre, talks on the phone, prepares meals. Small scope for a mythical character there.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:20 AM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, first, at least one of the officers (the one played by Charles Napier) isn't exactly a spring chicken
So Hannibal Lecter really was kind of a Herbert.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:28 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
So Hannibal Lecter really was kind of a Herbert.
posted by lagomorphius at 11:28 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Please don't forget to never forgive Gumb for ruining a really great song too: Q Lazzarus - Goodbye Horses
posted by carsonb at 11:32 AM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by carsonb at 11:32 AM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
Local SotL trivia: Chef Brockett from Mr. Roger's Neighborhood played an inmate in one the cells next to Lecter's.
Imdb lists three posibilities as to which particular inmate he might have played:
1. Friendly Psychopath
2. Brooding Psychopath
3. Miggs
posted by Fizz at 11:44 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Imdb lists three posibilities as to which particular inmate he might have played:
1. Friendly Psychopath
2. Brooding Psychopath
3. Miggs
posted by Fizz at 11:44 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I prefer the curiosities like ... Stop Making Sense
Curiosities? YOU TAKE THAT BACK.
I'm not even sure if the film explicity states that 'Buffalo Bill' is homosexual, I don't think it does. But some how in my mind I made that association. At that time, at that particular age, I had this notion that he was wrong and that his sexuality was wrong. I am sure much of that was due to other artistic/cultural representation and portrayals of people who cross-dress (in film, tv, etc.).
IIRC, the book is more explicit about Gumb not actually being transgender, just fixated on metamorphosis. But I would hope that Demme would handle that material differently today. I love so much about the film, but I have a hard time watching those parts.
posted by praemunire at 11:51 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Curiosities? YOU TAKE THAT BACK.
I'm not even sure if the film explicity states that 'Buffalo Bill' is homosexual, I don't think it does. But some how in my mind I made that association. At that time, at that particular age, I had this notion that he was wrong and that his sexuality was wrong. I am sure much of that was due to other artistic/cultural representation and portrayals of people who cross-dress (in film, tv, etc.).
IIRC, the book is more explicit about Gumb not actually being transgender, just fixated on metamorphosis. But I would hope that Demme would handle that material differently today. I love so much about the film, but I have a hard time watching those parts.
posted by praemunire at 11:51 AM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Imdb lists three posibilities as to which particular inmate he might have played:
1. Friendly Psychopath
2. Brooding Psychopath
3. Miggs
He played the friendly one.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:53 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. Friendly Psychopath
2. Brooding Psychopath
3. Miggs
He played the friendly one.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:53 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I thought the movie actually had a weird pre-emptive pseudo-apology line about the killer not being a real transsexual, whatever that means.
posted by atoxyl at 11:54 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 11:54 AM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hannibal Lecter: Billy is not a real trans-sexual, but he thinks he is. He tries to be. He's tried to be a lot of things, I expect.
Clarice Starling: And you said that I was very close to the way we would catch him. What did you mean, doctor?
Hannibal Lecter: There are three major centers for trans-sexual surgery: Johns Hopkins, the University of Minnesota, and Columbus Medical Center. I wouldn't be surprised if Billy had applied for sex reassignment at one or all of them, and been rejected.
Clarice Starling: On what basis would they reject him?
Hannibal Lecter: Look for severe childhood disturbances associated with violence. Our Billy wasn't born a criminal, Clarice. He was made one through years of systematic abuse. Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a trans-sexual. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:56 AM on February 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
Clarice Starling: And you said that I was very close to the way we would catch him. What did you mean, doctor?
Hannibal Lecter: There are three major centers for trans-sexual surgery: Johns Hopkins, the University of Minnesota, and Columbus Medical Center. I wouldn't be surprised if Billy had applied for sex reassignment at one or all of them, and been rejected.
Clarice Starling: On what basis would they reject him?
Hannibal Lecter: Look for severe childhood disturbances associated with violence. Our Billy wasn't born a criminal, Clarice. He was made one through years of systematic abuse. Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a trans-sexual. But his pathology is a thousand times more savage and more terrifying.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:56 AM on February 16, 2016 [9 favorites]
Oh, I think Stop Making Sense is the greatest concert movie ever made, largely because it's a great movie, not just slickly presented concert footage. And Swimming to Cambodia is a magnificent film, too (I much prefer it to The Killing Fields and I think it's got more to say about their shared subject in some ways). But for the general public I suspect they're curiosities, and that's how they seem to appear in Demme's filmography. Certainly compared to Silence of the Lambs.
posted by Grangousier at 11:58 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 11:58 AM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks for the quotes--I couldn't remember how much was in the film vs. the book. But the film is still stuck with those images that suggest a man trying to present as a woman is repulsive, horrifying, monstrous. I can see why many trans activists think it's transphobic.
posted by praemunire at 12:02 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 12:02 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
how is it that a 55 year-old man repeatedly overpowers and kills trained law enforcement officers half his age?
He was an demon wearing human clothing. Christ, the movie noted that he devoured a nurses face while his pulse never rose above 80.
Plus the book made clear that only Barney, the hospital worker, really understood what Hannibal was. Everyone else underestimated him and that's half the battle right there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:09 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
He was an demon wearing human clothing. Christ, the movie noted that he devoured a nurses face while his pulse never rose above 80.
Plus the book made clear that only Barney, the hospital worker, really understood what Hannibal was. Everyone else underestimated him and that's half the battle right there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:09 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
praemunire: “I can see why many trans activists think it's transphobic.”
They seem to be right on that.
posted by koeselitz at 12:09 PM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
They seem to be right on that.
posted by koeselitz at 12:09 PM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
The damn cop gave a shit about placing the dinner tray on the drawing. That was some dumb shit on the cops part, considering what Hannibal was. Hell, just letting him roam free in that cage, with only two guards, who were within reach, was a terrible mistake.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:11 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:11 PM on February 16, 2016
The interview with Levine on his "research" for the part only adds to the senseless grossness of it. No wonder his character comes off as so horrifyingly inhuman...it's apparently how he saw the people who tried to help him play the role.
posted by mittens at 12:12 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mittens at 12:12 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are ways for a smaller less physically powerful person to incapacitate someone larger based purely on surprise and anatomical knowledge. Lecter had both.
posted by echocollate at 12:14 PM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by echocollate at 12:14 PM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
The interview with Levine on his "research" for the part only adds to the senseless grossness of it. No wonder his character comes off as so horrifyingly inhuman...it's apparently how he saw the people who tried to help him play the role.
That's the opposite reaction I formed from the story. What gives you that impression?
posted by echocollate at 12:15 PM on February 16, 2016
That's the opposite reaction I formed from the story. What gives you that impression?
posted by echocollate at 12:15 PM on February 16, 2016
the moth wrangler made little death's head moth costumes for all the normal moths
the moth wrangler made little costumes for the moths
THE MOTHS ARE ALL IN COSTUME
now i have to get a moth costume
posted by tel3path at 12:44 PM on February 16, 2016 [24 favorites]
the moth wrangler made little costumes for the moths
THE MOTHS ARE ALL IN COSTUME
now i have to get a moth costume
posted by tel3path at 12:44 PM on February 16, 2016 [24 favorites]
mittens: “The interview with Levine on his "research" for the part only adds to the senseless grossness of it. No wonder his character comes off as so horrifyingly inhuman...it's apparently how he saw the people who tried to help him play the role.”
echocollate: “That's the opposite reaction I formed from the story. What gives you that impression?”
To be clear, I think this is the bit we're talking about, from the Rolling Stone article:
Really, what it comes down to for me is this: for Levine, transvestitism, being a drag queen, is somehow normal or acceptable because it's playacting. (I say this even though Levine uses weird words for it; I'm just sort of taking it as given that he just isn't well-informed.) But anything beyond being a drag queen, anything beyond simply wanting to dress up in "the cloak of feminine power" – that is, anything approaching actually being transgender – is "psychotic."
The movie has always been problematic for me. These interviews don't convince me that the actor secretly knew what he was doing.
posted by koeselitz at 12:49 PM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
echocollate: “That's the opposite reaction I formed from the story. What gives you that impression?”
To be clear, I think this is the bit we're talking about, from the Rolling Stone article:
To find the character, Levine frequented transvestite bars. "Some of the people there had hormones and augmented stuff, but they all had penises and they'd all get out there and lip-sync to Barbra Streisand and the latest thing," he recalls. "They were female impersonators and they were wonderful.It's not hard to read warmth into Levine's words here, I think – particularly "and they were wonderful," of course. But it's also not hard to find this very weird and problematic. He actually says this person he interviewed was "a pathetic excuse for a man on all kinds of levels" – really? And his use of "girl-boy," his talk of "donning the cloak of feminine power" ...
"I talked to a lovely, probably 5-foot-1 Hispanic boy-girl and bought him a drink," he continues. "I asked, 'Why do you do this?' He said, 'When I'm a dude on the street, I'm just a little Puerto Rican motherfucker. When I'm here, I'm a hot Latina mama.' It struck me that it was about power. He was a pathetic excuse for a man on all kinds of levels. But by trying to become a woman, he gains power, and hence the moth – the larva turning into the butterfly, the whole thing blossoming – it was the same impetus as a female impersonator, but it became psychotic. It was donning the cloak of feminine power."
Really, what it comes down to for me is this: for Levine, transvestitism, being a drag queen, is somehow normal or acceptable because it's playacting. (I say this even though Levine uses weird words for it; I'm just sort of taking it as given that he just isn't well-informed.) But anything beyond being a drag queen, anything beyond simply wanting to dress up in "the cloak of feminine power" – that is, anything approaching actually being transgender – is "psychotic."
The movie has always been problematic for me. These interviews don't convince me that the actor secretly knew what he was doing.
posted by koeselitz at 12:49 PM on February 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
The whole demon/force of nature is interesting and makes sense, especially considering the way his scenes are shot, lit, etc. (as others have pointed out) in opposition to the relatively straightforward nature of the rest of the movie. In a strange way it reminds me a bit of Mona Lisa, which in a different way juxtaposes a gritty, "realistic" world against fairy tale allusions both subtle and blatant.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:51 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:51 PM on February 16, 2016
I thought Levine meant that Gumb was the pathetic excuse for a man, but it's unclear.
posted by padraigin at 1:12 PM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by padraigin at 1:12 PM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
padraigin: "I thought Levine meant that Gumb was the pathetic excuse for a man, but it's unclear."
That's how I read it, too. But yes, unclear.
posted by chavenet at 1:17 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's how I read it, too. But yes, unclear.
posted by chavenet at 1:17 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Even if Levine meant Gumb, is it – I mean, is that actually any better?
posted by koeselitz at 1:19 PM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by koeselitz at 1:19 PM on February 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
"The interview with Levine on his 'research' for the part only adds to the senseless grossness of it. No wonder his character comes off as so horrifyingly inhuman...it's apparently how he saw the people who tried to help him play the role."
I read that bit -- quoted above by koeselitz -- and I interpreted it the way you did and it very much upset me. But then I re-read it several times, and considered the context, and I am now convinced that Levine's pronoun was meant to refer to Gumb, not the person he met.
That said, and even including the dialogue quoted by Chrysostom, I am still left with a very bad feeling after reading the article and considering the film. I think it's both homophobic and transphobic, even if many of the principals involved intended otherwise. Indeed, even if Levine very much intended otherwise. I think that Foster's reaction to that scene is revealing, it's exactly the kind of bias and disgust that the film intends to evoke by the portrayal of Gumb. Even if everyone involved very much doesn't want to appeal to bigotry, they are trafficking in bigotry because it's very effective for their purposes.
I see this kind of thing all the time with regard to sexism and misogyny. Well, and homophobia, of course. The homophobic stuff is irresistible to writers who want to evoke discomfort in the audience, even if they consciously believe they aren't homophobic. And writers utilize all sorts of sexist and misogynist tropes and actors use all sorts of similar affectations in their portrayals to leverage cultural sexism and misogyny to evoke certain kinds of responses from the audience. I think they usually don't have any idea that they're doing it. And it's because this stuff is woven throughout our culture, it's in all of us to some degree -- writers use the tools that are available to them.
It really takes a huge amount of awareness and effort to not do this and achieve the same results. The xenophobic triggers that a culture has are, obviously, related to its institutionalized bigotries. And especially working within certain genres and telling certain kinds of stories, it's extremely convenient to use those triggers as a way of access all sorts of fears and other darker emotions buried in the minds of the audience. Nowhere is this more true, I think, than horror of whatever variety. It's very, very difficult for writers to work within that space and not traffic in ideas, intentional or not, that reinforce social hate. I think it takes a huge amount of awareness and effort and most writers -- even the well-intentioned, smart ones -- aren't going to do so. Most of them will resent being asked to do so. Like comedians, they usually believe that their status as creators and critics explicitly excuses them from such responsibilities.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:19 PM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
I read that bit -- quoted above by koeselitz -- and I interpreted it the way you did and it very much upset me. But then I re-read it several times, and considered the context, and I am now convinced that Levine's pronoun was meant to refer to Gumb, not the person he met.
That said, and even including the dialogue quoted by Chrysostom, I am still left with a very bad feeling after reading the article and considering the film. I think it's both homophobic and transphobic, even if many of the principals involved intended otherwise. Indeed, even if Levine very much intended otherwise. I think that Foster's reaction to that scene is revealing, it's exactly the kind of bias and disgust that the film intends to evoke by the portrayal of Gumb. Even if everyone involved very much doesn't want to appeal to bigotry, they are trafficking in bigotry because it's very effective for their purposes.
I see this kind of thing all the time with regard to sexism and misogyny. Well, and homophobia, of course. The homophobic stuff is irresistible to writers who want to evoke discomfort in the audience, even if they consciously believe they aren't homophobic. And writers utilize all sorts of sexist and misogynist tropes and actors use all sorts of similar affectations in their portrayals to leverage cultural sexism and misogyny to evoke certain kinds of responses from the audience. I think they usually don't have any idea that they're doing it. And it's because this stuff is woven throughout our culture, it's in all of us to some degree -- writers use the tools that are available to them.
It really takes a huge amount of awareness and effort to not do this and achieve the same results. The xenophobic triggers that a culture has are, obviously, related to its institutionalized bigotries. And especially working within certain genres and telling certain kinds of stories, it's extremely convenient to use those triggers as a way of access all sorts of fears and other darker emotions buried in the minds of the audience. Nowhere is this more true, I think, than horror of whatever variety. It's very, very difficult for writers to work within that space and not traffic in ideas, intentional or not, that reinforce social hate. I think it takes a huge amount of awareness and effort and most writers -- even the well-intentioned, smart ones -- aren't going to do so. Most of them will resent being asked to do so. Like comedians, they usually believe that their status as creators and critics explicitly excuses them from such responsibilities.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:19 PM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
The movie does note that Gumb isn't a transgender woman. But some people didn't catch, or chose to ignore, that caveat, and so Buffalo Bill (along with the "rubs the lotion" and "in the basket" stuff) has become shorthand for gross, ugly, devious trans people. The darker parts of society and the Internet use him to represent all of us (I'm a transgender woman). So when I see jokes or references to that part of the movie, I bristle.
I know people don't mean anything by it, but when (for instance) my friend posts a selfie and captions it, "Would you fuck me? I'd fuck me.", I instantly think of how we've been painted as monsters, and the pain and death that perception has caused.
It's a great movie. But I saw the title of this thread and winced. I don't know what to do about that.
posted by aedison at 1:49 PM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
I know people don't mean anything by it, but when (for instance) my friend posts a selfie and captions it, "Would you fuck me? I'd fuck me.", I instantly think of how we've been painted as monsters, and the pain and death that perception has caused.
It's a great movie. But I saw the title of this thread and winced. I don't know what to do about that.
posted by aedison at 1:49 PM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
3. Miggs
"Multiple Miggs in the next cell ... what did he say to you?"
posted by theorique at 1:50 PM on February 16, 2016
"Multiple Miggs in the next cell ... what did he say to you?"
posted by theorique at 1:50 PM on February 16, 2016
Christ, the movie noted that he devoured a nurses face while his pulse never rose above 80.
So? What's your heart rate when you devour nurses' faces?
posted by Sangermaine at 1:52 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
So? What's your heart rate when you devour nurses' faces?
posted by Sangermaine at 1:52 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
So? What's your heart rate when you devour nurses' faces?
Worst valentine's ever.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:10 PM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Worst valentine's ever.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:10 PM on February 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
"So? What's your heart rate when you devour nurses' faces?"
If it's more than one -- not a snack, but something more filling -- then I might hit 95 bpm or so because of the effort involved. But, yeah, you definitely don't need to be a demon to manage that. Just a regular cardio workout and a diet low in saturated fat.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:13 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
If it's more than one -- not a snack, but something more filling -- then I might hit 95 bpm or so because of the effort involved. But, yeah, you definitely don't need to be a demon to manage that. Just a regular cardio workout and a diet low in saturated fat.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:13 PM on February 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I saw the title of this thread and winced. I don't know what to do about that.
If you read my comment above, you'll note that this movie was a kind of learning moment for me. The reason I posted this thread with that title is because it is one of the most memorable lines in the entire film. It's unfortunate that it carries such negative weight.
posted by Fizz at 2:13 PM on February 16, 2016
If you read my comment above, you'll note that this movie was a kind of learning moment for me. The reason I posted this thread with that title is because it is one of the most memorable lines in the entire film. It's unfortunate that it carries such negative weight.
posted by Fizz at 2:13 PM on February 16, 2016
I think it's both homophobic and transphobic, even if many of the principals involved intended otherwise.
I think of this as the The Trope Is Bigger Than You phenomenon. Even assuming no subconscious influence from bigotry at all (and, as you say, these fears and hatreds are embedded deep in our cultural psyche), you can't use certain images or ideas without conjuring that bigotry for your audience. They're too heavily colored by their previous associations. This sucks for the artist, but it's worse for the people who are the targets of the bigotry.
posted by praemunire at 2:24 PM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think of this as the The Trope Is Bigger Than You phenomenon. Even assuming no subconscious influence from bigotry at all (and, as you say, these fears and hatreds are embedded deep in our cultural psyche), you can't use certain images or ideas without conjuring that bigotry for your audience. They're too heavily colored by their previous associations. This sucks for the artist, but it's worse for the people who are the targets of the bigotry.
posted by praemunire at 2:24 PM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
I remember seeing this in the theatre. During the scene where Buffalo Bill tucks his penis between his legs and dances, I heard this odd popping noise in the theatre. I looked around, and about half the audience's jaws had actually dropped open. I started laughing -- it was so ridiculous that there are scenes of cannibalism yet the thing that freaked people out was this guy's strut.
posted by benzenedream at 2:51 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by benzenedream at 2:51 PM on February 16, 2016
3. Miggs
"Multiple Miggs in the next cell ... what did he say to you?"
I used to work with the guy who played Miggs. Sweetest guy ever and super embarrassed about that line.
posted by Mavri at 3:31 PM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Multiple Miggs in the next cell ... what did he say to you?"
I used to work with the guy who played Miggs. Sweetest guy ever and super embarrassed about that line.
posted by Mavri at 3:31 PM on February 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I will never be able to watch Monk again. The entire series is now ruined.
posted by humanfont at 4:08 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by humanfont at 4:08 PM on February 16, 2016
has become shorthand for gross, ugly, devious trans people
That's odd to me because I never saw Bill as trans, not even when I was a teenager. It seemed to me that his thing was more like cannibalism - eat (wear) your enemies, gain their power. Maybe I read the film wrong.
I am still pissed however that Ardelia got cut from the movie
I think the story of an isolated Starling, surrounded by manipulative-at-best men, is stronger for it.
posted by Leon at 4:11 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's odd to me because I never saw Bill as trans, not even when I was a teenager. It seemed to me that his thing was more like cannibalism - eat (wear) your enemies, gain their power. Maybe I read the film wrong.
I am still pissed however that Ardelia got cut from the movie
I think the story of an isolated Starling, surrounded by manipulative-at-best men, is stronger for it.
posted by Leon at 4:11 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
It is, ultimately, a feminist failure, like most pop culture things which try to have Strong Female Lead, but I cannot tell you the number of times in my life I literally hear Jodie Foster in my head saying "It matters, Mr Crawford."
posted by crush-onastick at 4:28 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by crush-onastick at 4:28 PM on February 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've always had mixed emotions about this movie. On the one hand, it is a very effective thriller, well-directed and superbly acted. On the other hand, as a trans person I kind of look at this movie the same way somebody with a bad stutter might look at Porky Pig. It gave the bullies a lot to work with.
But Jesus, is it ever effective. The sequence where that poor woman in the pit is weeping about how she wants to go home to her mama is so wrenching I can still get a little choked up just thinking about it. Nobody should ever have to be that frightened, and that scene ups the stakes in a really ghastly way. Whatever reservations I felt about seeing Gumb demonized for his gender-bending pee-pee dance and stuff, I was still very glad to see him offed.
PUT THE PAPER IN THE PRINTER AND PUT THE WRAPPER IN THE TRASH
Your response was funny, EC, but the dad-joker in me can't resist saying that it would have maybe been funnier to write OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:52 PM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
But Jesus, is it ever effective. The sequence where that poor woman in the pit is weeping about how she wants to go home to her mama is so wrenching I can still get a little choked up just thinking about it. Nobody should ever have to be that frightened, and that scene ups the stakes in a really ghastly way. Whatever reservations I felt about seeing Gumb demonized for his gender-bending pee-pee dance and stuff, I was still very glad to see him offed.
PUT THE PAPER IN THE PRINTER AND PUT THE WRAPPER IN THE TRASH
Your response was funny, EC, but the dad-joker in me can't resist saying that it would have maybe been funnier to write OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:52 PM on February 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
The character is ultimately drawn from the likes of Ed Gein, who is creepy regardless of whose skin he's wearing. But the way it's done in the movie definitely draws on transphobia for effect.
posted by atoxyl at 6:19 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by atoxyl at 6:19 PM on February 16, 2016
(but why are all the popular serial killer movies drawn from gein? girly prissy norman bates, grisly bewigged leatherface...why always gein?)
posted by mittens at 6:55 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by mittens at 6:55 PM on February 16, 2016
I work for USDA, and work in the same building as a group of entomologists. Several of them have courtesy appointments at the Smithsonian, and some of them have offices at Natural History. I always think of them when I watch the movie, even though I think they mostly work with mites and things, not moths.
posted by wintermind at 7:03 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by wintermind at 7:03 PM on February 16, 2016
Starling: She had an object deliberately inserted into her throat.
Now, that hasn't been made public yet. We don't know what it means.
Lecter: Was it a butterfly?
Yes. A moth. Just like the one we found in Benjamin Raspail's head an hour ago. Why does he place them there, Doctor?
The significance of the moth is change. Caterpillar into chrysalis, or pupa, and from thence into beauty.Our Billy wants to change, too.
There's no correlation between transsexualism and violence.- Transsexuals are very passive. -
Clever girl.
And many directors have benefitted from Tak Fujimoto's framing style.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:38 PM on February 16, 2016
Now, that hasn't been made public yet. We don't know what it means.
Lecter: Was it a butterfly?
Yes. A moth. Just like the one we found in Benjamin Raspail's head an hour ago. Why does he place them there, Doctor?
The significance of the moth is change. Caterpillar into chrysalis, or pupa, and from thence into beauty.Our Billy wants to change, too.
There's no correlation between transsexualism and violence.- Transsexuals are very passive. -
Clever girl.
And many directors have benefitted from Tak Fujimoto's framing style.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:38 PM on February 16, 2016
I saw the movie in the 1990s, and again a few months ago. Knowing what was coming made some scenes creepier, and others less so. It's a very good movie, though I agree that the character of Buffalo Bill would probably be portrayed somewhat differently today.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:47 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by Dip Flash at 7:47 PM on February 16, 2016
Lecter: Billy is not a real transsexual. But he thinks he is. He tries to be. He's tried to be a lot of things, I expect.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:49 PM on February 16, 2016
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:49 PM on February 16, 2016
Please don't forget to never forgive Gumb for ruining a really great song too
I was at karaoke night at a weird little bar in a weird little town in the Central Valley of California a few years ago and a woman got up and sang "Goodbye Horses" in that intense eyes-shut, I-have-a-super-deep-connection-to-this-song way that only happens during drunk karaoke nights. It haunts me to this day.
posted by skycrashesdown at 7:56 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was at karaoke night at a weird little bar in a weird little town in the Central Valley of California a few years ago and a woman got up and sang "Goodbye Horses" in that intense eyes-shut, I-have-a-super-deep-connection-to-this-song way that only happens during drunk karaoke nights. It haunts me to this day.
posted by skycrashesdown at 7:56 PM on February 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
You have to be human first. They don't qualify.
It's been long enough that I've forgotten a lot of Shawshank, but the exchange you quoted works OK for me. The majority of prison rapists AREN'T homosexual, and would probably strongly deny they were. But the SOTL thing about Gumb not being really transgender feels like a dodge. (If he's not, what is all the makeup and penis-tucking and stuff about, exactly?)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:28 PM on February 16, 2016
It's been long enough that I've forgotten a lot of Shawshank, but the exchange you quoted works OK for me. The majority of prison rapists AREN'T homosexual, and would probably strongly deny they were. But the SOTL thing about Gumb not being really transgender feels like a dodge. (If he's not, what is all the makeup and penis-tucking and stuff about, exactly?)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:28 PM on February 16, 2016
To provide counterpoint to the constructions of Lecter-as-a-demon, in one of the novels (can't remember which), I think it's Starling that asks Barney what Lecter believes in. Barney says Lecter believes "in chaos," and mentions Lecter collecting news reports of church collapses, as a token of his disgust with faith and any belief other than cold rationality.
I see both depictions in Hannibal and Silence of the Lambs: Lecter as demon, and Lecter as psychotic - but entirely natural - genius. It seems like the former comes from anyone who isn't Lecter, while the latter comes from Lecter himself.
posted by iffthen at 2:42 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I see both depictions in Hannibal and Silence of the Lambs: Lecter as demon, and Lecter as psychotic - but entirely natural - genius. It seems like the former comes from anyone who isn't Lecter, while the latter comes from Lecter himself.
posted by iffthen at 2:42 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I always felt like the whole "he's not a transsexual ... he's different ... and WAY MORE EVIL" was so they could get their fey cross-dressing scenes in while fending off charges of trans hatred (or, in 1991, it probably would have been mainly accusations of being anti-gay).
posted by theorique at 3:07 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by theorique at 3:07 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Correcting the transphobia problem is only one of many good reasons to let Bryan Fuller remake Silence of the Lambs with Mads Mikkelson and Ellen Page. I'm pretty sure he'd radically change Buffalo Bill for the better
posted by wabbittwax at 7:36 AM on February 17, 2016
posted by wabbittwax at 7:36 AM on February 17, 2016
Correcting the transphobia problem is only one of many good reasons to let Bryan Fuller remake Silence of the Lambs with Mads Mikkelson and Ellen Page. I'm pretty sure he'd radically change Buffalo Bill for the better
I think he'd have a damn good shot at it, anyway, but I'm not entirely sure if the concept can be salvaged at all.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:43 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think he'd have a damn good shot at it, anyway, but I'm not entirely sure if the concept can be salvaged at all.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:43 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I always felt like the whole "he's not a transsexual ... he's different ... and WAY MORE EVIL" was so they could get their fey cross-dressing scenes in while fending off charges of trans hatred (or, in 1991, it probably would have been mainly accusations of being anti-gay).
Demme took the protests of the film very seriously at the time, and he made Philadelphia immediately after this. I don't think it was a calculated attempt to avoid accusations of homophobia/transphobia so much as cluelessness that the film plays as transphobic anyway, even with the lines defining Gumb as not transgender.
This thread is probably the right place to say that Yvonne Tasker's book on the film is excellent and worth looking up.
posted by thetortoise at 8:26 AM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Demme took the protests of the film very seriously at the time, and he made Philadelphia immediately after this. I don't think it was a calculated attempt to avoid accusations of homophobia/transphobia so much as cluelessness that the film plays as transphobic anyway, even with the lines defining Gumb as not transgender.
This thread is probably the right place to say that Yvonne Tasker's book on the film is excellent and worth looking up.
posted by thetortoise at 8:26 AM on February 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Silence of the Lambs with Mads Mikkelson
The thing about Mads Mikkelson is that it's impossible to believe that anyone ever reacted to his Lecter with anything less than deep uneasiness. You can believe that Anthony Hopkins was popular and respected before he dropped the mask. Mikkelson reads as someone you do not want to be alone in a room with from day one, which makes everyone around him seem like an idiot. No remake, please.
posted by praemunire at 9:33 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
The thing about Mads Mikkelson is that it's impossible to believe that anyone ever reacted to his Lecter with anything less than deep uneasiness. You can believe that Anthony Hopkins was popular and respected before he dropped the mask. Mikkelson reads as someone you do not want to be alone in a room with from day one, which makes everyone around him seem like an idiot. No remake, please.
posted by praemunire at 9:33 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Brian Cox's hannibal doesn't get enough credit..in subtle ways better than Hopkin's
posted by judson at 10:08 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by judson at 10:08 AM on February 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
praemunire, I would agree with you except for this: the hero of the story reacts with deep uneasiness on first meeting Mikkelsen!Lecter. In fact, he throws a complete shitfit and storms out of the room. Since he's an empath, that fits. He should have gone with his gut reaction.
The process of how Mikkelsen!Lecter gets the hero to override his initial resistance and start trusting him is VERY interesting. Every time he wins over another character, you are getting the answer to the question "what has Lecter got that this character wants?"
Plus which, a major theme of the show is that people *are* idiots.
posted by tel3path at 11:29 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The process of how Mikkelsen!Lecter gets the hero to override his initial resistance and start trusting him is VERY interesting. Every time he wins over another character, you are getting the answer to the question "what has Lecter got that this character wants?"
Plus which, a major theme of the show is that people *are* idiots.
posted by tel3path at 11:29 AM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The medical profession and Johns Hopkins in particular has a very problematic history as gatekeepers for trans treatment, so framing them as the arbiter of "true transsexualism" has some troubling associations. Sure, in the case of the fictional character of Buffalo Bill they wouldn't be wrong, but at that time there was also a very narrow view of how trans women should look, act, and behave. To actually receive treatment, one would have to conform to a very particular and stereotypical notion of femininity to fall in line with the standard narrative.
posted by Pryde at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Pryde at 6:59 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
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posted by Catblack at 9:47 AM on February 16, 2016 [10 favorites]