Put the Beatles record down.
February 20, 2016 8:49 PM Subscribe
Salon interviews music critic Jim Fusilli:
“We’re surrounded by people who, despite a narrow perspective, insist the music of their youth is superior to the sounds of any other period,” he writes. “Most people who prefer old music mean no harm and it’s often a pleasure to listen to them talk about their favorite artists of the distant past. But others are bullies who intend to harangue us into submission, as if their bluster can conceal their ignorance. They ignore what seems to me something that’s self-evident: rock and pop today is as good as it’s ever been.”
Rock and pop don't hold the same central position in cultural life anymore as they did when us olds grew up. Music and music consumption was a major avenue for self expression. It's not that our music was better. I believe it simply meant more to us.
posted by monospace at 8:59 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by monospace at 8:59 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
You really think the music you listened to when you were growing up means more than it does today? Putting it gently: think of some hiphop lyrics paired with the police related shootings of the last couple years.
posted by yeahwhatever at 9:02 PM on February 20, 2016 [51 favorites]
posted by yeahwhatever at 9:02 PM on February 20, 2016 [51 favorites]
Popular music as a whole Is as good as ever. Rock not so much but it had a good run what do you expect?
posted by atoxyl at 9:08 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 9:08 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let's just say the music business is as good awful today as it ever was.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:10 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:10 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
And if guitar rock is your thing, look to Australia, where acts like Courtney Barnett, Royal Headache and Rolling Blackouts Coastal Fever are producing some of the most exciting indie-rock anthems of the decade.
And just like that, I became a raving Courtney Barnett fan. Wow, she's interesting.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:15 PM on February 20, 2016 [40 favorites]
And just like that, I became a raving Courtney Barnett fan. Wow, she's interesting.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:15 PM on February 20, 2016 [40 favorites]
I have finally begun to come to terms with the fact that my ideas about music are quaint & outdated --it's okay. I'm 53 years old and just stuck on this preference for music that is played by musicians instead of computers. I'm not against music being played by computers - I've fiddled with it a bit, & it's convenient. I just don't prefer it & it has created a blind spot for me.
I do consistently seek out & occasionally still find new music I enjoy that's created by live humans, but increasingly, I'm finding they're becoming Olds like me. Neko Case, Mike Keneally, Steven Wilson, none of them are exactly children.
Oh, well. I guess I'm the guy the author's railing against - a balding dinosaur, fading ungracefully into irrelevance. Such is the nature of things. The old coots die off & the young have their turn.
Rock on, kids.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:15 PM on February 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
I do consistently seek out & occasionally still find new music I enjoy that's created by live humans, but increasingly, I'm finding they're becoming Olds like me. Neko Case, Mike Keneally, Steven Wilson, none of them are exactly children.
Oh, well. I guess I'm the guy the author's railing against - a balding dinosaur, fading ungracefully into irrelevance. Such is the nature of things. The old coots die off & the young have their turn.
Rock on, kids.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:15 PM on February 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
It's not that our music was better. I believe it simply meant more to us.
I think you succeeded in actually sounding more "kids these days" than just saying that music was better back then.
posted by advil at 9:16 PM on February 20, 2016 [83 favorites]
I think you succeeded in actually sounding more "kids these days" than just saying that music was better back then.
posted by advil at 9:16 PM on February 20, 2016 [83 favorites]
I think that at some point in your life you just reach a limit of how much music you can cognitively keep track of. I make sporadic attempt to acquaint myself newer music but it never seems to stick and somehow I find myself listening to old Clash albums again. I'm pretty sure that this is more my fault than contemporary music's fault.
posted by octothorpe at 9:23 PM on February 20, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 9:23 PM on February 20, 2016 [42 favorites]
See, the problem I had was.... I had just booted up spotify, clicked on some Janis, browsed to MetaFilter and read this FPP...
Now, try and convince me there's anything better than Janis...
posted by HuronBob at 9:26 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Now, try and convince me there's anything better than Janis...
posted by HuronBob at 9:26 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
We just have so so so so so much music available to us by clicking on a mouse or keyboard now. IT IS GODDAMN WIZARDY OF THE BEST KIND. SUCK IT, DUMBLYDORE.
If you told me when I was young and buying 45s at fucking SEARS how easy it would be to get my grubby paws on music when I was older - I just would not have believed you.
Let the kids have their Beibers and Selenas and whatever else. THEY WILL STILL LOVE IT WHEN THEY ARE OLDER.
I don't mind a lot of the newer musics, I hear. Really, the latest Bieber I've heard isn't bad pop music.
Rock didn't die, it's just resting. Its influence is everywhere.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 9:29 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
If you told me when I was young and buying 45s at fucking SEARS how easy it would be to get my grubby paws on music when I was older - I just would not have believed you.
Let the kids have their Beibers and Selenas and whatever else. THEY WILL STILL LOVE IT WHEN THEY ARE OLDER.
I don't mind a lot of the newer musics, I hear. Really, the latest Bieber I've heard isn't bad pop music.
Rock didn't die, it's just resting. Its influence is everywhere.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 9:29 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's not that classic rock is any good, it's just that those songs have good lawyers. There's way more great music that goes unheard because there's no one getting paid for you to hear it.
posted by Catblack at 9:32 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 9:32 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
I try and try but nothing's ever gonna replace Warren Zevon and Manfred Mann in the playlist of my heart. But Taylor Swift does all right.
posted by Sternmeyer at 9:33 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sternmeyer at 9:33 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a very good reason why people report that music is less interesting now - because it has gotten simpler over time by every numerical metric you can think of.
The pop music on the radio is objectively very similar to itself - with a very narrow range of bpms, chord changes, lengths, and variety in general.
It's a matter of taste, and most people seem perfectly cool with all this simple, samey music without much variation, so who am I to sit in judgement of them?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:33 PM on February 20, 2016 [46 favorites]
The pop music on the radio is objectively very similar to itself - with a very narrow range of bpms, chord changes, lengths, and variety in general.
It's a matter of taste, and most people seem perfectly cool with all this simple, samey music without much variation, so who am I to sit in judgement of them?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:33 PM on February 20, 2016 [46 favorites]
The fact that we used to have to buy all our music and it was not cheap, maybe that's why we oldsters think it was better. Cognitive dissonance. I bought therefore it must be good.
posted by storybored at 9:35 PM on February 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by storybored at 9:35 PM on February 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
I have a kid who keeps me up to date on modern music. But now and again I wander into some dive, where musically, it's 1965. Not only 1965, but it's my favorite version.
I had this one funny epiphany. Some sophomore girls were hanging out in the art room, and playing their favorite new song for me. The song was Runaway. I said, "No really, you have to hear this song I loved when I was fifteen." So I found the same song, only performed by Del Shannon, in 1965. "Check this out," I am saying, and it starts up with that old school electric guitar and organ. It was better than the new version, so spare, clean, and unprocessed. We had a good laugh and then they listened to the old version again.
posted by Oyéah at 9:38 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
I had this one funny epiphany. Some sophomore girls were hanging out in the art room, and playing their favorite new song for me. The song was Runaway. I said, "No really, you have to hear this song I loved when I was fifteen." So I found the same song, only performed by Del Shannon, in 1965. "Check this out," I am saying, and it starts up with that old school electric guitar and organ. It was better than the new version, so spare, clean, and unprocessed. We had a good laugh and then they listened to the old version again.
posted by Oyéah at 9:38 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Old people music is lame. My favorite band is this new thing John Mayer is doing. Jam bands are kinda lame in general but he is making this work somehow.
posted by Drinky Die at 9:41 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 9:41 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hey I'm not biased, it's just the truth that all of culture peaked when I happened to start paying attention to it! I'm not biased, it's just the truth that kids don't have feels the way we did back in the day! They are so bad at having things mean stuff to them that they aren't even inventing new ways of expressing themselves every single day! It's just the truth that music can only be made using one small set of instruments! I'm not biased, it's just the truth that kids gathering on grassy areas that belong to me is necessarily undesirable!
posted by bleep at 9:45 PM on February 20, 2016 [63 favorites]
posted by bleep at 9:45 PM on February 20, 2016 [63 favorites]
I hated so much popular music when I was a kid. I find that I still hate most popular music now that I am in my 40s, and I don't think it's gotten noticeably more hateful. More of it is written by Max Martin now, but, like, it's not as if songwriters and svengali-like producers who make awful boring music are a new thing. But for the more alt stuff that I have always liked... It's like we live in a golden age of music. There's so much out there and it's all available to listen to with no difficulty at all, and it's actually pretty easy to find even if you are old. I first heard Courtney Barnett in a Tiny Desk Concert, and it's not like NPR is a rebel youth kind of thing.
I would not be surprised if I haven't heard my favorite ever band yet.
posted by surlyben at 9:47 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
I would not be surprised if I haven't heard my favorite ever band yet.
posted by surlyben at 9:47 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also, I'm not biased, it's just the truth that music on the radio is terrible therefore I know everything there is to get informed about music because technology has stood still and the place to be up on modern music is the same as it was 40 years ago.
posted by bleep at 9:49 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 9:49 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art.
posted by Small Dollar at 9:50 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
The truth is that we are now further from In A Silent Way than it was from In The Mood. Big Band was that crap on 78's that grampa listened to. Time marches on.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:50 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:50 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
What I meant when I said it meant more to us, was that growing up in the 60s/70s/80s, music was the major medium for teenage self-expression. We didn't have the internets, remember. No video games, no YouTube or Instagram. We defined ourselves by what we heard on the radio, by the artists we admired, by the albums we bought. That's simply not true anymore for kids these days, who have so much more media available at their fingertips. I suspect that for many, music is just another app on a smartphone.
posted by monospace at 9:51 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by monospace at 9:51 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
> Most people who prefer old music mean no harm and it’s often a pleasure to listen to them talk about their favorite artists of the distant past
This is so appropriate. I was just listening to one of the oldies from my youth and reminiscing about how much I enjoyed it.
But Janelle Monae is amazing. He's right about that.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:52 PM on February 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is so appropriate. I was just listening to one of the oldies from my youth and reminiscing about how much I enjoyed it.
But Janelle Monae is amazing. He's right about that.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:52 PM on February 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
The truth is, David Bowie just did the sneakiest thing ever as his final act -- he released ★ and then died two days later and it was the #1 album in the US and in the UK and sold well all around the world and while it may not appeal to 90% of the people who hear it, there will be those 10%, and we're going to have a renaissance of experimental music emerging in the next 5 or so years.
posted by hippybear at 9:54 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:54 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
There's a very good reason why people report that music is less interesting now - because it has gotten simpler over time by every numerical metric you can think of.
This is an interesting study and I will read it more closely later but - in my skimming am I missing how it copes with e.g. the fact that "synthesizer" is not actually a single musical instrument? Because it seems kind of bullshit to me to consider the difference between a recorder and a flageolet but not the difference between any two synth patches. On the other hand I can believe that compositional complexity through the lens of traditional music theory has diminished.
This bit (with a reference I have not read) is also interesting.
Over the last fifty years popular music experienced growing homogenization over time with respect to timbre
I can sorta believe that because what's new in one genre tends to cross over into other genres and mainstream pop very quickly now.
posted by atoxyl at 9:55 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is an interesting study and I will read it more closely later but - in my skimming am I missing how it copes with e.g. the fact that "synthesizer" is not actually a single musical instrument? Because it seems kind of bullshit to me to consider the difference between a recorder and a flageolet but not the difference between any two synth patches. On the other hand I can believe that compositional complexity through the lens of traditional music theory has diminished.
This bit (with a reference I have not read) is also interesting.
Over the last fifty years popular music experienced growing homogenization over time with respect to timbre
I can sorta believe that because what's new in one genre tends to cross over into other genres and mainstream pop very quickly now.
posted by atoxyl at 9:55 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know bands are not all just the usual drums-bass-lead guitar-singer format, but so many still are that I can't help thinking we've heard most of the changes you can ring on that format, and I don't need to hear any more.
posted by zadcat at 9:56 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zadcat at 9:56 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Blackstar is a goddam phenomenal album, a major work of art, a towering edifice of excellence, it was released a month ago, and is stone-cold technologically current. Also the old dude who made it was 69 at the time. The kids aren't going to let you count that as new.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:58 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:58 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
There are bullies who go round making people listen to the Beatles and Dylan? It's not a phenomenon I've experienced. I'm not sure when I last heard a Beatles song.
posted by Segundus at 10:00 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 10:00 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Twenty+ years ago, when I was a late teenager, I had a friend who was a few years my senior. He implored me to keep finding new music as I got older, as I would have a tendency to stick with the music that I loved as a teenager.
He was absolutely right; there is always great new music out there - and its never easy to find it (as the music industry wants to push their crap on people), but it's there.
I still lean heavily on the music that I loved in my late teens and early twenties, but I try to be open to new music.
posted by el io at 10:01 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
He was absolutely right; there is always great new music out there - and its never easy to find it (as the music industry wants to push their crap on people), but it's there.
I still lean heavily on the music that I loved in my late teens and early twenties, but I try to be open to new music.
posted by el io at 10:01 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
meant more to us,
I think what monospace is saying is pretty reasonable. Commercial expressions of youth culture were massively more limited in the 1960s and 70s (and to some extent 80s) than they are today. There were less things to identify with in the public space, and music was more central to the broad swathe of youth identity. I don't see their comment as an argument that the music was more meaningful, just that it was more culturally dominant. It is relatively easy, in this era, to have a non-outcast youth identity not defined by the music you like. That was more difficult in the 60s and 70s
posted by howfar at 10:01 PM on February 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
I think what monospace is saying is pretty reasonable. Commercial expressions of youth culture were massively more limited in the 1960s and 70s (and to some extent 80s) than they are today. There were less things to identify with in the public space, and music was more central to the broad swathe of youth identity. I don't see their comment as an argument that the music was more meaningful, just that it was more culturally dominant. It is relatively easy, in this era, to have a non-outcast youth identity not defined by the music you like. That was more difficult in the 60s and 70s
posted by howfar at 10:01 PM on February 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
Sorry but this idea that everything that was produced when you were 18 is the be all and end all of human achievement and kids today don't understand music is both one of the oldest sentiments in all of human culture and one of the shittiest sentiments in all of human culture. Music doesn't mean more to any one person or culture. Music is everything to everyone.
posted by bleep at 10:02 PM on February 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:02 PM on February 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
Since none of us have direct access to anyone else's private mental state, there is no basis but solipsism for the assertion that our emotions are deeper and more real than those of other people, man.
The fact that some older art doesn't speak as much to people today as it did when it came out isn't because foolish idiot children lack the emotional ability to appreciate its obvious objective brilliance. It's because that art was never as timeless as it seemed when it was of the moment and the people experiencing it were young.
There's a very good reason why people report that music is less interesting now - because it has gotten simpler over time by every numerical metric you can think of.
I don't see that conclusion in the linked study. From the abstract: "We find empirical evidence that individual styles show dramatic changes in their instrumentational complexity over the last fifty years [...] As a style attracts a growing number of artists, its instrumentational variety usually increases. At the same time the instrumentational uniformity of a style decreases, i.e. a unique stylistic and increasingly complex expression pattern emerges. In contrast, album sales of a given style typically increase with decreasing instrumentational complexity. This can be interpreted as music becoming increasingly formulaic in terms of instrumentation once commercial or mainstream success sets in."
Their observations seem to be that complexity within a given style of music tends to increase as more people make that style of music, but tends to decrease as that style moves from commercial obscurity to success. That's a much more subtle point than saying that all music today is simpler and therefore less compelling than it used to be.
posted by amery at 10:02 PM on February 20, 2016 [27 favorites]
The fact that some older art doesn't speak as much to people today as it did when it came out isn't because foolish idiot children lack the emotional ability to appreciate its obvious objective brilliance. It's because that art was never as timeless as it seemed when it was of the moment and the people experiencing it were young.
There's a very good reason why people report that music is less interesting now - because it has gotten simpler over time by every numerical metric you can think of.
I don't see that conclusion in the linked study. From the abstract: "We find empirical evidence that individual styles show dramatic changes in their instrumentational complexity over the last fifty years [...] As a style attracts a growing number of artists, its instrumentational variety usually increases. At the same time the instrumentational uniformity of a style decreases, i.e. a unique stylistic and increasingly complex expression pattern emerges. In contrast, album sales of a given style typically increase with decreasing instrumentational complexity. This can be interpreted as music becoming increasingly formulaic in terms of instrumentation once commercial or mainstream success sets in."
Their observations seem to be that complexity within a given style of music tends to increase as more people make that style of music, but tends to decrease as that style moves from commercial obscurity to success. That's a much more subtle point than saying that all music today is simpler and therefore less compelling than it used to be.
posted by amery at 10:02 PM on February 20, 2016 [27 favorites]
I think what monospace is saying is pretty reasonable. Commercial expressions of youth culture were massively more limited in the 1960s and 70s (and to some extent 80s) than they are today. There were less things to identify with in the public space, and music was more central to the broad swathe of youth identity.
Doesn't it mean that it meant less? If all you have to choose from the is the Beatles and/or the Rolling Stones how deep and personal can that identification really be?
posted by bleep at 10:03 PM on February 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
Doesn't it mean that it meant less? If all you have to choose from the is the Beatles and/or the Rolling Stones how deep and personal can that identification really be?
posted by bleep at 10:03 PM on February 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
The kids aren't going to let you count that as new.
I'm not talking about "the kids" at large... I'm talking about that 5-10% of "the kids" who will have encountered Blackstar and will find it utterly influential, like how most of Bowie's catalog has pushed things forward across decades.
I'm saying, for those who have been out of touch "because there is nothing good now", pay attention, because that stone well tossed is going to have ripples that will change things.
posted by hippybear at 10:03 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not talking about "the kids" at large... I'm talking about that 5-10% of "the kids" who will have encountered Blackstar and will find it utterly influential, like how most of Bowie's catalog has pushed things forward across decades.
I'm saying, for those who have been out of touch "because there is nothing good now", pay attention, because that stone well tossed is going to have ripples that will change things.
posted by hippybear at 10:03 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
It really depends on what role music plays in a person's life. Is it a deeply serious interest, background noise, or somewhere in between? I have 500 CDs sitting on a shelf behind me as I type this. I've always been curious to discover new music, by which I mean 'new' to me — not necessarily the most current releases. Even then, I couldn't tell you what period of time produced the best material — I find the question rather pointless.
The significance certain songs and albums have to people is such a layered, personal judgment that it could never hope to be authoritative. It is incredibly frustrating when someone goes out of their way to try and explain why your favourite band sucks, though.
Ever since I delved into the online music community, there has been That Guy who is overly concerned with the 'correct' bands / genres / whatever. My tastes have always been varied enough to run afoul of just about every stripe of That Guy, so I have no patience for it these days.
Music is so accessible now that it's practically a public utility. If you don't like something, it should take a trivial amount of time to find something that you do — focus on that. Don't worry about your tastes passing some kind of authenticity test.
I'll close off with this random scenario that happened 2 years ago, when my house flooded. At some point, when the disaster mitigation crew was removing my hardwood floors and carpets, I'm packing up my music collection and one of the guys walks in:
CLEAN UP GUY: Johnny Cash, huh?
ME: Yeah, I listen to a lot of different stuff.
CLEAN UP GUY: I don't like Johnny Cash.
ME: You probably shouldn't listen to him then.
Sometimes people are just dinks.
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:09 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
The significance certain songs and albums have to people is such a layered, personal judgment that it could never hope to be authoritative. It is incredibly frustrating when someone goes out of their way to try and explain why your favourite band sucks, though.
Ever since I delved into the online music community, there has been That Guy who is overly concerned with the 'correct' bands / genres / whatever. My tastes have always been varied enough to run afoul of just about every stripe of That Guy, so I have no patience for it these days.
Music is so accessible now that it's practically a public utility. If you don't like something, it should take a trivial amount of time to find something that you do — focus on that. Don't worry about your tastes passing some kind of authenticity test.
I'll close off with this random scenario that happened 2 years ago, when my house flooded. At some point, when the disaster mitigation crew was removing my hardwood floors and carpets, I'm packing up my music collection and one of the guys walks in:
CLEAN UP GUY: Johnny Cash, huh?
ME: Yeah, I listen to a lot of different stuff.
CLEAN UP GUY: I don't like Johnny Cash.
ME: You probably shouldn't listen to him then.
Sometimes people are just dinks.
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:09 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
The premise of the article is bullshit. When I was young the airwaves crackled with life, and it was all pondscum hair-metal or synth-only R&B-alikes. It got so bad in Highschool, all the motorheads and shop-class hangrounds listened to Classic Rock - Led Zep, CSN&Y, The Who?, Eric Clapton and The Side Projects, Floyd, YES!, Santana, and Bruce Springstein and Billy Joel. Also U2...
And you know what Highschooler motorheads and shop-class hangarounds listen to today? On Spotify/Slacker/Pandora/Apple Music?
Led Zep, CSN&Y, The Who?, Eric Clapton and The Side Projects, Floyd, YES!, Santana, and Bruce Springstein and Billy Joel, the Foo Fighters (both before and after Kurt died), Perl Jam and Jane's Red Hot Chilli Pepper Addiction. Also U2...
Right now, in this particular moment, Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco will be indistinguishable from each other in 5 years time. There will be perky and poppy stuff that is danceable and forgettable, and stuff clearly identified as "indie" or"alt" that will be danceable and forgettable.
Then there wil be Nathaniel Rateliff and The Night Sweats, who lets us know exactly what the fuck retro means. There will be Pegboard Nerds and Skrillex - who stepped on the Grammy's neck with his awesome boot to make them give Bieber a little statue simply because Skrillex could. There will be Adelle.
In ten years time, The Insane Clown Posse's "Hall of Illusions" will be in regular rotation on the classic rock station that a 15-year-old motorhead is restoring a vintage Tesla to. She knows she'll have to drive it herself, and this scares and excites her. It's OK. Red Barchetta is playing, now.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:09 PM on February 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
And you know what Highschooler motorheads and shop-class hangarounds listen to today? On Spotify/Slacker/Pandora/Apple Music?
Led Zep, CSN&Y, The Who?, Eric Clapton and The Side Projects, Floyd, YES!, Santana, and Bruce Springstein and Billy Joel, the Foo Fighters (both before and after Kurt died), Perl Jam and Jane's Red Hot Chilli Pepper Addiction. Also U2...
Right now, in this particular moment, Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco will be indistinguishable from each other in 5 years time. There will be perky and poppy stuff that is danceable and forgettable, and stuff clearly identified as "indie" or"alt" that will be danceable and forgettable.
Then there wil be Nathaniel Rateliff and The Night Sweats, who lets us know exactly what the fuck retro means. There will be Pegboard Nerds and Skrillex - who stepped on the Grammy's neck with his awesome boot to make them give Bieber a little statue simply because Skrillex could. There will be Adelle.
In ten years time, The Insane Clown Posse's "Hall of Illusions" will be in regular rotation on the classic rock station that a 15-year-old motorhead is restoring a vintage Tesla to. She knows she'll have to drive it herself, and this scares and excites her. It's OK. Red Barchetta is playing, now.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:09 PM on February 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
well, duh. it's not like anyone *believes* all those youtube comments, do they?
I just listened to an entire Casey Kasem Top 40 rebroadcast from 1977. It was incredible how much older and whiter popular music was. When you consider the gatekeeper angle, no wonder everyone liked the same old shit. It's all they had.
there is always great new music out there - and its never easy to find it
KALX.
The problem now is that there is SO much good new music, it's almost impossible to not miss something wonderful.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:09 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
I just listened to an entire Casey Kasem Top 40 rebroadcast from 1977. It was incredible how much older and whiter popular music was. When you consider the gatekeeper angle, no wonder everyone liked the same old shit. It's all they had.
there is always great new music out there - and its never easy to find it
KALX.
The problem now is that there is SO much good new music, it's almost impossible to not miss something wonderful.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:09 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, it used to be that when you bought an album, you generally listened to the whole album. There was artwork, sometimes a great poster. But you'd put on the lp or cassette and listen to the whole damn thing. The songs grew on you. You had to get up and change the record, flip the tape. Then CDs came along. Then the multi disc changers, then suddenly everyone is going apeshit over mp3s. (And those early few years of mp3s... real crap quality rips generally...no one had disc space for 320bps.)
But now it's all streaming services and I'm a holdout. Tried a couple, didn't like the algorithms. Didn't like being served up a song in some vague idea of the same format. There's 20 bland bands that have songs just like the one you entered into our search bar to hear, so here you go, listen to this. It's like going into a restaurant and having mozzarella sticks as an appetizer and then the waiter comes back and says, "Like that? Here's a whole plate of cheese you are sure to enjoy!"
And there was plenty of never made it big bands in the past who put out records, just as there are today. No one should feel bad for ignoring them.
But finding a good artist today... someone whose entire album you like, that's the trick. I like checking out best of lists from music blogs, particularly Said The Gramophone's end of year best songs, which I'll then use to give the entire album a listen to if I like an artist. My other way of discovering new music is to haunt certain music forums where download links are offered and pull down gigabytes of albums in bulk and then give everything a (sometimes quick) listen.
There are way, way more musical artists out there than you can imagine. You can't possibly hear it all, but if you are locked into the tepid waters of a streaming service, you are going to miss out on so very much.
posted by Catblack at 10:11 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
But now it's all streaming services and I'm a holdout. Tried a couple, didn't like the algorithms. Didn't like being served up a song in some vague idea of the same format. There's 20 bland bands that have songs just like the one you entered into our search bar to hear, so here you go, listen to this. It's like going into a restaurant and having mozzarella sticks as an appetizer and then the waiter comes back and says, "Like that? Here's a whole plate of cheese you are sure to enjoy!"
And there was plenty of never made it big bands in the past who put out records, just as there are today. No one should feel bad for ignoring them.
But finding a good artist today... someone whose entire album you like, that's the trick. I like checking out best of lists from music blogs, particularly Said The Gramophone's end of year best songs, which I'll then use to give the entire album a listen to if I like an artist. My other way of discovering new music is to haunt certain music forums where download links are offered and pull down gigabytes of albums in bulk and then give everything a (sometimes quick) listen.
There are way, way more musical artists out there than you can imagine. You can't possibly hear it all, but if you are locked into the tepid waters of a streaming service, you are going to miss out on so very much.
posted by Catblack at 10:11 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
When I was 14 I loved music that was 20 years old. Now I love mudic that is coming out tomorrow.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:12 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:12 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
And if guitar rock is your thing, look to Australia, where acts like Courtney Barnett, Royal Headache and Rolling Blackouts Coastal Fever are producing some of the most exciting indie-rock anthems of the decade.
And just like that, I became a raving Courtney Barnett fan. Wow, she's interesting.
I love Courtney. If you like story-telling, grunge, talk-singing and a bit of a laugh, give her a listen.
posted by adept256 at 10:12 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
And just like that, I became a raving Courtney Barnett fan. Wow, she's interesting.
I love Courtney. If you like story-telling, grunge, talk-singing and a bit of a laugh, give her a listen.
posted by adept256 at 10:12 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not in any way trying to say that the music I grew up with was more meaningful, or even necessarily better. It was just much more central to us. And that I turn, I think, made someone like Bowie possible in the first place.
posted by monospace at 10:13 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by monospace at 10:13 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, I'm 32 and I fully intend to live out my twilight years as the Kvlt Grandpa, getting warning letters sent to my kids because I'm playing Darkthrone albums way too loud.
Until then, I'm going to keep finding stuff to listen to and adding 4-5 sub-genres to my vocabulary on a monthly basis.
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:14 PM on February 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
Until then, I'm going to keep finding stuff to listen to and adding 4-5 sub-genres to my vocabulary on a monthly basis.
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:14 PM on February 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
Doesn't it mean that it meant less? If all you have to choose from the is the Beatles and/or the Rolling Stones how deep and personal can that identification really be?
I think you could hold either view about that without disagreeing with monospace's original point, which I don't think is about alternatives within music, but rather alternatives to music.
I hope this thread doesn't get rancourous. I don't think anyone is trying to assert knowledge of profound and absolute truths about music, and I'm sure we can just chat about these things without getting grumpy.
posted by howfar at 10:15 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think you could hold either view about that without disagreeing with monospace's original point, which I don't think is about alternatives within music, but rather alternatives to music.
I hope this thread doesn't get rancourous. I don't think anyone is trying to assert knowledge of profound and absolute truths about music, and I'm sure we can just chat about these things without getting grumpy.
posted by howfar at 10:15 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Cracked - 7 Scientific Reasons You'll Turn Out Just Like Your Parents
New Study Shows that People Stop Listening to Music at Age 33
My 60-year old mom is really musically inclined and plays three instruments, so I like showing her all the new indie pop music I listen to, and we discuss about the complex chord changes that go on. I also have a fondness for brilliant ballad singers like Teresa Teng that she introduced me to. The Moon Represents My Heart. We also share a united hatred for really tacky music in any culture, so I think it works out.
So basically, music overall is very cool and shouldn't be viewed as a linear time format, in my opinion, good music just lasts. I came across Donna Summers' "I Feel Love" and my group of early 20-something friends I talked in so much rapture about it.
If people aren't mean about the music they like and want to share, then I'm game for anything, to be honest. There are many gems all over to discover.
posted by yueliang at 10:18 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
New Study Shows that People Stop Listening to Music at Age 33
My 60-year old mom is really musically inclined and plays three instruments, so I like showing her all the new indie pop music I listen to, and we discuss about the complex chord changes that go on. I also have a fondness for brilliant ballad singers like Teresa Teng that she introduced me to. The Moon Represents My Heart. We also share a united hatred for really tacky music in any culture, so I think it works out.
So basically, music overall is very cool and shouldn't be viewed as a linear time format, in my opinion, good music just lasts. I came across Donna Summers' "I Feel Love" and my group of early 20-something friends I talked in so much rapture about it.
If people aren't mean about the music they like and want to share, then I'm game for anything, to be honest. There are many gems all over to discover.
posted by yueliang at 10:18 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
People trying to act like their generation has a monopoly on music being meaningful makes me grumpy.
posted by bleep at 10:18 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:18 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
that stone well tossed is going to have ripples that will change things.
I agree absolutely. It's a very forward-leaning album in every aspect, as was all of Bowie's work. I do hope you're correct in that influences young people to incorporate his ideas into their own work. It's a truly stunning tour-de-force, especially considering his age & failing health.
I feel hypocritical though pointing to it and saying "See? I like new music, David Bowie, that old guy who was old before you were born, just put out a new album." Kids are gonna mostly go "Benny Goodman, Gramps."
What I also mean to say is I'm not finding much music made by 20 year olds that I can completely sink my teeth into. But as I tried to make clear in my first comment, that's my failing for not being able to appreciate it.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:20 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree absolutely. It's a very forward-leaning album in every aspect, as was all of Bowie's work. I do hope you're correct in that influences young people to incorporate his ideas into their own work. It's a truly stunning tour-de-force, especially considering his age & failing health.
I feel hypocritical though pointing to it and saying "See? I like new music, David Bowie, that old guy who was old before you were born, just put out a new album." Kids are gonna mostly go "Benny Goodman, Gramps."
What I also mean to say is I'm not finding much music made by 20 year olds that I can completely sink my teeth into. But as I tried to make clear in my first comment, that's my failing for not being able to appreciate it.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:20 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not like this is the first time I've encountered this idea and it always makes me want to puke. Everyone acts like the 70s and 80s were the pinnacle of human achievement just because that's when they started paying attention to human achievement. It's a really terribly incorrect idea.
posted by bleep at 10:20 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:20 PM on February 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
I find that I like current pop music more today, at almost 40, than I did at 14. Because at 14 I was desperately uncool and SO FUCKING WORRIED that if I liked the wrong popular music (which I'm sure I would have), it would be signalling that I was both uncool and desperate. Whereas by liking obscure and arcane things -- mostly jazz and Tori Amos -- I removed the desperation danger and embraced the uncoolness, thus rendering it inert.
Today I'm like, "YOU CAN PRY MY TAYLOR SWIFT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS," and if Taylor Swift is not cool enough for some people, I will literally laugh at them for being pretentious because I outgrew caring about how cool the music I like is 20 years ago. And I also legit feel bad for people who have achieved adulthood but still struggle with the creeping fear that if they like the things they like, they won't be cool enough in the eyes of their peers, because dude the whole point of escaping high school is to escape high school, not to mentally trap yourself there for the rest of your life.
Anyway I am way more up on pop music today than I was when I was in the target demographic, and he's right -- pop today is great! There's lots of super-catchy commercial stuff, and lots of really interesting genre-subverting stuff, and I find myself explaining the significance of Sia's hair or Gaga's clothes to puzzled parents of preteens all the time. (Also how Kanye's use of autotune shows his alienation and it's not really about judging the quality of his singing in the heavily autotuned songs.)
I am also much more capable now of understanding WHY something is popular or groundbreaking or awesome, even when I don't like it myself. I worry less about hating things than I used to. If it's not to my taste, it's not to my taste; it's not the downfall of society and culture, and I don't have to worry about it 24/7.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:21 PM on February 20, 2016 [39 favorites]
Today I'm like, "YOU CAN PRY MY TAYLOR SWIFT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS," and if Taylor Swift is not cool enough for some people, I will literally laugh at them for being pretentious because I outgrew caring about how cool the music I like is 20 years ago. And I also legit feel bad for people who have achieved adulthood but still struggle with the creeping fear that if they like the things they like, they won't be cool enough in the eyes of their peers, because dude the whole point of escaping high school is to escape high school, not to mentally trap yourself there for the rest of your life.
Anyway I am way more up on pop music today than I was when I was in the target demographic, and he's right -- pop today is great! There's lots of super-catchy commercial stuff, and lots of really interesting genre-subverting stuff, and I find myself explaining the significance of Sia's hair or Gaga's clothes to puzzled parents of preteens all the time. (Also how Kanye's use of autotune shows his alienation and it's not really about judging the quality of his singing in the heavily autotuned songs.)
I am also much more capable now of understanding WHY something is popular or groundbreaking or awesome, even when I don't like it myself. I worry less about hating things than I used to. If it's not to my taste, it's not to my taste; it's not the downfall of society and culture, and I don't have to worry about it 24/7.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:21 PM on February 20, 2016 [39 favorites]
It's a really terribly incorrect idea.
Yeah, let me tell you about how I started listening to punk & new wave real loud in my late teens partly because I liked it because it was new & partly because my hippie parents hated it.
I'm getting it in spades - my 16-year-old son is trying to kill me with dubstep.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:31 PM on February 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yeah, let me tell you about how I started listening to punk & new wave real loud in my late teens partly because I liked it because it was new & partly because my hippie parents hated it.
I'm getting it in spades - my 16-year-old son is trying to kill me with dubstep.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:31 PM on February 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
Put the Beatles record down.
I will fucking KNIFE you.
There is a lot of good new music. There is a lot of amazing new music. And if that means I have to stop listening to The Beatles, then I will fucking knife you.
Twice.
Bang Bang.
posted by eriko at 10:33 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
I will fucking KNIFE you.
There is a lot of good new music. There is a lot of amazing new music. And if that means I have to stop listening to The Beatles, then I will fucking knife you.
Twice.
Bang Bang.
posted by eriko at 10:33 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's funny, I went from early metal and classic rock to 80s and alternative from my teens to mid 30s, but then in the past 15 years found my way into 1920-1950s jazz, swing, and Great American Songbook, plus a detour through jugband.
Oh, and thanks to ask metafilter, dipped a toe into sludge/stoner metal since it reminds me of where my listening started.
posted by fings at 10:35 PM on February 20, 2016
Oh, and thanks to ask metafilter, dipped a toe into sludge/stoner metal since it reminds me of where my listening started.
posted by fings at 10:35 PM on February 20, 2016
>>Put the Beatles record down.
>I will fucking KNIFE you.
They don't call it Stabby Road for nothin!
posted by Catblack at 10:37 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
>I will fucking KNIFE you.
They don't call it Stabby Road for nothin!
posted by Catblack at 10:37 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
Pop is probably better today than it has been since the 60s for sure. But indie rock music is kinda.... slow. Slow and chipper. If you like ironic and twee music it's a golden age. If you like it louder and more sincere, well somewhere the fourth wall was permanently broken and there aren't really any more new aspirational rock stars for firebrand youth just right now.
You can actually see kind of the same thing in movies. Tarantino made Reservoir Dogs in his 20s, John Singleton was 21 or 22 when he made Boys in the Hood, Spike Lee was 30 when he made Do the Right Thing, Sofia Coppola was 29 when she made The Virgin Suicides. I keep wondering when my generation will start to feel old and out of touch because a new crop of kids we don't get will come along like they did but it hasn't happened yet. I suppose it will but it seems like an oddly long lull.
As an aside: Tori Amos was arcane?
posted by fshgrl at 10:38 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
You can actually see kind of the same thing in movies. Tarantino made Reservoir Dogs in his 20s, John Singleton was 21 or 22 when he made Boys in the Hood, Spike Lee was 30 when he made Do the Right Thing, Sofia Coppola was 29 when she made The Virgin Suicides. I keep wondering when my generation will start to feel old and out of touch because a new crop of kids we don't get will come along like they did but it hasn't happened yet. I suppose it will but it seems like an oddly long lull.
As an aside: Tori Amos was arcane?
posted by fshgrl at 10:38 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
My adolescence was during the height of the mosh-pit and underground rave era. Maybe music isn't so dangerous anymore.
Also Bieber isn't singing for me. I'm hardly his target audience. I may head-nod in the car if it comes on the radio, but it's not on my playlist. Just like I may get to the beat of French hip-hop, but really, I don't understand what they're talking about. It wasn't written for people that don't know French. Sesame Street definitely has some cool grooves, but it's not what you listen to on the bonnet of your car at look-out point with your sweetheart.
It's awesome there is something for everyone and everyone has a favourite. When I see 13yo girls screaming for Bieber, they really look like they're having so much fun. How could I not support kids having fun?*
*Because Justin just makes terrible music
posted by adept256 at 10:38 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also Bieber isn't singing for me. I'm hardly his target audience. I may head-nod in the car if it comes on the radio, but it's not on my playlist. Just like I may get to the beat of French hip-hop, but really, I don't understand what they're talking about. It wasn't written for people that don't know French. Sesame Street definitely has some cool grooves, but it's not what you listen to on the bonnet of your car at look-out point with your sweetheart.
It's awesome there is something for everyone and everyone has a favourite. When I see 13yo girls screaming for Bieber, they really look like they're having so much fun. How could I not support kids having fun?*
*Because Justin just makes terrible music
posted by adept256 at 10:38 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
One band that is oddly fitting nicely within a lot of genres that I enjoy today is Sheppard. I've heard them at the gas station so I assume they are somewhat current. I don't recommend bands often, but I do recommend that one.
posted by hippybear at 10:39 PM on February 20, 2016
posted by hippybear at 10:39 PM on February 20, 2016
As an aside: Tori Amos was arcane?
So, I was at home with the television on and there was an MTV VIDEO PREMIERE and it was Tori Amos "Silent All These Years" and I actually immediately got in my car and drove to the record store and they actually had Tori Amos Little Earthquakes in stock and I bought a copy and took it home and listened to it and I called several of my best friends that I traded music with and I gave them all a money back guarantee on the album if they were to go get it within the next week and if they didn't like it I would buy the album from them and I never had to follow through on it, and they each did the same with other friends and she was spreading like wildfire for a while...
*whew*
I think she became more arcane after her second album, and was well on a track away from pop chart popularity by after her 4th album. But those heady days of Little Earthquakes and Under The Pink were a memorable stretch of my life. (Saw LE tour in Albuquerque, NM. Holy Fukin' Christ!)
posted by hippybear at 10:43 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
So, I was at home with the television on and there was an MTV VIDEO PREMIERE and it was Tori Amos "Silent All These Years" and I actually immediately got in my car and drove to the record store and they actually had Tori Amos Little Earthquakes in stock and I bought a copy and took it home and listened to it and I called several of my best friends that I traded music with and I gave them all a money back guarantee on the album if they were to go get it within the next week and if they didn't like it I would buy the album from them and I never had to follow through on it, and they each did the same with other friends and she was spreading like wildfire for a while...
*whew*
I think she became more arcane after her second album, and was well on a track away from pop chart popularity by after her 4th album. But those heady days of Little Earthquakes and Under The Pink were a memorable stretch of my life. (Saw LE tour in Albuquerque, NM. Holy Fukin' Christ!)
posted by hippybear at 10:43 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
"As an aside: Tori Amos was arcane?"
In 1992 in white suburban Chicago it was only playing on the alternative station and top 40 radio was Boyz II Men and RHCP and Mr. Big and Eric Clapton's dead-kid song and "Little Earthquakes" was like my little secret.
(Now I am looking at the Hot 100 for 1992, and man was that a big year for ballads.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:44 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
In 1992 in white suburban Chicago it was only playing on the alternative station and top 40 radio was Boyz II Men and RHCP and Mr. Big and Eric Clapton's dead-kid song and "Little Earthquakes" was like my little secret.
(Now I am looking at the Hot 100 for 1992, and man was that a big year for ballads.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:44 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I like everything- one of the joy of being an Old is forgetting about whatever thing I found awesome in say- spring of 99. Then finding it again and nostalging out . And the youngfolk in my life make me listen- some of it I like, some of it I don't. Some of it is even stuff from when I was a whippersnapper and missed it!
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 10:53 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 10:53 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is some bullshit! I'm old. OLD! And I still love my old punk rock. And I love tons of new music too. Oh not the bullshit the corporations want to ram down my throat, but shit. there's tons of great stuff out there. Numina, Lichens, Wooden Shjips, and piles more. You just have to want to find it.
posted by evilDoug at 10:53 PM on February 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 10:53 PM on February 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
my late-twenties co-worker was BAFFLED when I told him of my distaste for Led Zeppelin, and i attempted to explain the sheer oppressive weight of 1970s AOR.
He asked me what I dug now and I told him, "YouTube channels posted by obsessive 78 collectors."
Friends, I received a long, searching gaze.
posted by mwhybark at 10:53 PM on February 20, 2016 [18 favorites]
He asked me what I dug now and I told him, "YouTube channels posted by obsessive 78 collectors."
Friends, I received a long, searching gaze.
posted by mwhybark at 10:53 PM on February 20, 2016 [18 favorites]
Zeppelin is exhausting. I was at a friend's who has an actual record player the other day- I squeee'd with delight over the fact it had a 78 setting...
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 10:57 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 10:57 PM on February 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
What's a 78?
posted by adept256 at 10:58 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 10:58 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's a very good reason why people report that music is less interesting now - because it has gotten simpler over time by every numerical metric you can think of.
This always drives me up the effin wall. Even if there were some foolproof test to show that music is indeed simpler than it used to be, it would still mean absolutely nothing with regards to how interesting it should be to us. That's a totally subjective opinion dictated by all sorts of cultural factors around us, and you can't science your way into an opinion or argument about it. These kinds of arguments assume that by making a numerical argument about music, there's some kind of message in there about emotional content, or danceability, or actual meaning.
But what really bothers me about this view of music is that it ends up reinforcing colonial attitudes towards any music that doesn't fit the criteria you set for it. Traditional Australian Aboriginal music features drones, clapping sticks, and little in the way of instrumentation. Yet it would not only be false to claim it were simple, it would be explicitly racist to overlook the musical system that makes Aboriginal music, in fact, highly complex. It's just not complex in a way that we can relate to. The idea that "numbers don't lie" says exactly nothing about what actually makes this music culturally relevant or significant.
That's not to get all relativistic, though. We're operating within our own culture and with certain expectations of what music should sound like. But just because you don't think something is interesting, it doesn't mean we should then point to some numbers as "proof" that it truly isn't. What makes "complexity" equate to what's interesting?
Besides, it's hard to argue that today's music isn't complex, even pop music. Pop music today is probably more syncopated than it's ever been. It's incorporating more funk, it's incorporating diverse influences like never before. I hate dubstep, but it's a confluence of all these different musical traditions, from Jamaica to England to Los Angeles to South Africa. The numbers don't see any of this, and the only thing I'm convinced of when someone talks about one of those studies is that we've got to stop pretending we can judge art by numerical standards. It makes no sense.
/rant
posted by teponaztli at 11:00 PM on February 20, 2016 [41 favorites]
This always drives me up the effin wall. Even if there were some foolproof test to show that music is indeed simpler than it used to be, it would still mean absolutely nothing with regards to how interesting it should be to us. That's a totally subjective opinion dictated by all sorts of cultural factors around us, and you can't science your way into an opinion or argument about it. These kinds of arguments assume that by making a numerical argument about music, there's some kind of message in there about emotional content, or danceability, or actual meaning.
But what really bothers me about this view of music is that it ends up reinforcing colonial attitudes towards any music that doesn't fit the criteria you set for it. Traditional Australian Aboriginal music features drones, clapping sticks, and little in the way of instrumentation. Yet it would not only be false to claim it were simple, it would be explicitly racist to overlook the musical system that makes Aboriginal music, in fact, highly complex. It's just not complex in a way that we can relate to. The idea that "numbers don't lie" says exactly nothing about what actually makes this music culturally relevant or significant.
That's not to get all relativistic, though. We're operating within our own culture and with certain expectations of what music should sound like. But just because you don't think something is interesting, it doesn't mean we should then point to some numbers as "proof" that it truly isn't. What makes "complexity" equate to what's interesting?
Besides, it's hard to argue that today's music isn't complex, even pop music. Pop music today is probably more syncopated than it's ever been. It's incorporating more funk, it's incorporating diverse influences like never before. I hate dubstep, but it's a confluence of all these different musical traditions, from Jamaica to England to Los Angeles to South Africa. The numbers don't see any of this, and the only thing I'm convinced of when someone talks about one of those studies is that we've got to stop pretending we can judge art by numerical standards. It makes no sense.
/rant
posted by teponaztli at 11:00 PM on February 20, 2016 [41 favorites]
It's easy to forget Sturgeon's Law and try to compare best 10% from past decades (which has stood the test of time) to the crap 90% of today's music. This might lead to some distorted conclusions.
posted by sockpup at 11:04 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by sockpup at 11:04 PM on February 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
No-one who's tried to play a didgeridoo for more than ten seconds would say Aboriginal music is simple. Honestly, if you have asthma don't try it.
posted by adept256 at 11:04 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 11:04 PM on February 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
What's a 78?
7-inch records playable at thirty-three or forty-five rpms released by small independent UK labels during 1978.
posted by mwhybark at 11:04 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
7-inch records playable at thirty-three or forty-five rpms released by small independent UK labels during 1978.
posted by mwhybark at 11:04 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
Here's an example of how kids today have no clue and are terrible and hate all good music and shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccEvaVr8GDM
(livingroom cover of Tay-tay's "Never Ever," awkward teenage bluegrass style.)
posted by mwhybark at 11:11 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccEvaVr8GDM
(livingroom cover of Tay-tay's "Never Ever," awkward teenage bluegrass style.)
posted by mwhybark at 11:11 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
By the way, people who like music listen to Song Exploder. It's probably the best music journalism I've ever encountered, because you actually get a tear-down of the song, bottom to top, with the artist, and really get a lot that you didn't hear before. It's also amazing to see (well, hear) the diversity in people's creative processes.
Courtney Barnett - Fun episode on an artist we like!
Magnetic Fields - All Stephen Merritt songs are written in bars with loud music, to block out the Bumble Bee Tuna jingle which apparently dominates his brainwaves at all other times. Also, it turns out that the jingle is like the prototype for all magnetic fields songs.
Tune Yards - Water Fountain started as clapping alone in a studio for a month.
The Microphones - I Want Wind to Blow is one of my all-time favorite songs, and it was just lovely to hear it taken apart.
Wilco - "Mumble tracks." Yeah!
posted by kaibutsu at 11:30 PM on February 20, 2016 [24 favorites]
Courtney Barnett - Fun episode on an artist we like!
Magnetic Fields - All Stephen Merritt songs are written in bars with loud music, to block out the Bumble Bee Tuna jingle which apparently dominates his brainwaves at all other times. Also, it turns out that the jingle is like the prototype for all magnetic fields songs.
Tune Yards - Water Fountain started as clapping alone in a studio for a month.
The Microphones - I Want Wind to Blow is one of my all-time favorite songs, and it was just lovely to hear it taken apart.
Wilco - "Mumble tracks." Yeah!
posted by kaibutsu at 11:30 PM on February 20, 2016 [24 favorites]
There’s a lot of great music being made now. But most of it’s like saying there are a lot of great Cubist or Impressionist painters today.
I listen to new music constantly. Finding it and weeding it out is the challenge. The article kind of glosses over it, but I think it’s the biggest factor.
“Every time somebody buys a reissue, they’re just taking money away from new musicians”
That’s just dumb. People buy what they like.
posted by bongo_x at 11:32 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I listen to new music constantly. Finding it and weeding it out is the challenge. The article kind of glosses over it, but I think it’s the biggest factor.
“Every time somebody buys a reissue, they’re just taking money away from new musicians”
That’s just dumb. People buy what they like.
posted by bongo_x at 11:32 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
A timely moment to look back on the #1 song on the 1969 year-end Billboard chart.
posted by northernish at 11:36 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by northernish at 11:36 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
The Eighties pop I hated the first time around and the occasional New Wave hit I liked the first time around, that I now hear on the PA in grocery stores, is older than the sixties stuff that filled hipper stores when that Eighties stuff was new. That makes me feel weird, because that was the pop of my teens.
But honestly it's so rare to hear anything from my collection of the time in that context. And here I am in my forties, repeatedly listening to an album by a crew of four French turntablists because it sticks a finger all the way down my earhole and scratches the fuck out of an itch that almost no other music can touch.
I don't keep up with new pop. Nothing has really changed there. I never felt at home listening to it. Maybe I feel a little more at home now, now that new pop can incorporate the weird sounds I've enjoyed for so long. Maybe I'm just older and less hateful and can appreciate a perfect gem of a Perky Pop Song in a way I couldn't as a bitter, involuted teen.
But on the other hand, yeah, there's something to be said for promition of a new release by an old favorite, too. Sometimes they just give you another iteration of the same damn album you've bought enough times already. Sometimes they give you something related to their old stuff but beautiful and new. And sometimes you just get a really masterfully crafted song about the trials of getting old and having everything die around you. That's not the kind of emotion a twenty something kid is going to really sing about, not like a sixtysomething with it staring them in the face can. it speaks to people who are in that place, and it will continue to speak to people in that place as long as some part of that artist's work is generally considered relevant to the modern world.
posted by egypturnash at 11:42 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
But honestly it's so rare to hear anything from my collection of the time in that context. And here I am in my forties, repeatedly listening to an album by a crew of four French turntablists because it sticks a finger all the way down my earhole and scratches the fuck out of an itch that almost no other music can touch.
I don't keep up with new pop. Nothing has really changed there. I never felt at home listening to it. Maybe I feel a little more at home now, now that new pop can incorporate the weird sounds I've enjoyed for so long. Maybe I'm just older and less hateful and can appreciate a perfect gem of a Perky Pop Song in a way I couldn't as a bitter, involuted teen.
But on the other hand, yeah, there's something to be said for promition of a new release by an old favorite, too. Sometimes they just give you another iteration of the same damn album you've bought enough times already. Sometimes they give you something related to their old stuff but beautiful and new. And sometimes you just get a really masterfully crafted song about the trials of getting old and having everything die around you. That's not the kind of emotion a twenty something kid is going to really sing about, not like a sixtysomething with it staring them in the face can. it speaks to people who are in that place, and it will continue to speak to people in that place as long as some part of that artist's work is generally considered relevant to the modern world.
posted by egypturnash at 11:42 PM on February 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've definitely run into the Gen-X equivalent of the Gee-Bees in some amateur music communities online — IME they tend to be much more okay with hip-hop than their Boomer counterparts because hip-hop passes the "authenticity" test, but vehemently against electronic music, especially anything dance-y (partly because of this "authenticity" issue the article touches on, I think, but also, honestly, partly because "electronica" was coded as "gay" and in the early '00s it was still totally cool to be homophobic in public).
Think the 1.0 version of Pitchfork. You know, before their reviewers started turning over and they started trying to pretend it had always been okay for hipsters to like Basement Jaxx.
I don't have a snappy name for that mentality, though.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:52 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Think the 1.0 version of Pitchfork. You know, before their reviewers started turning over and they started trying to pretend it had always been okay for hipsters to like Basement Jaxx.
I don't have a snappy name for that mentality, though.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:52 PM on February 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
It took me SO long to realize that Pitchfork was no longer The Worst. I just remember their reviews of the Moog Cookbook albums, written by someone offended at the mere existence of synthesizers. The basic takeaway was "This album should have guitars on it. There are no guitars on it. 0.0"
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 11:56 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 11:56 PM on February 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was just (like, between the last time I checked Metafilter and now) flicking through a bunch of new music magazines (yes, they still print Rolling Stone, Mofo and something called Uncut) my partner picked up because BOWIE! was on the cover (in some he was alive, in some he was dead) so it rant the Gamut from December to January...
... as I flicked through I realised I'd not looked at this kind of magazine for a decade, and I was scanning over all the articles (even the ones about Paul Weller) and I was looking for news about bands I did like and re-issues.
All the stuff that was unfamiliar to me wasn't some potential arcane mystery to delve into, to solve and engage with (and decided I hated), it was someone else's passion and I just didn't care.
And when I realised not only did New Order put out a new album last year, but the music press is raving about it (why, I am not sure, I have it streaming on YouTube and it's no Movement) and I had no idea (I mean, you think I might have heard or seen something).
I probably had a point, but I am old and have forgotten it.
(Although I do recognise some of the bands mentioned here, so if you are looking for new music, maybe today's music magazines hold up? And they come with free CDs!).
posted by Mezentian at 12:08 AM on February 21, 2016
... as I flicked through I realised I'd not looked at this kind of magazine for a decade, and I was scanning over all the articles (even the ones about Paul Weller) and I was looking for news about bands I did like and re-issues.
All the stuff that was unfamiliar to me wasn't some potential arcane mystery to delve into, to solve and engage with (and decided I hated), it was someone else's passion and I just didn't care.
And when I realised not only did New Order put out a new album last year, but the music press is raving about it (why, I am not sure, I have it streaming on YouTube and it's no Movement) and I had no idea (I mean, you think I might have heard or seen something).
I probably had a point, but I am old and have forgotten it.
(Although I do recognise some of the bands mentioned here, so if you are looking for new music, maybe today's music magazines hold up? And they come with free CDs!).
posted by Mezentian at 12:08 AM on February 21, 2016
Rev. Syung Myung Me: ahahahahah, yesss, I kind of wish I could find that review so I could hate-read it. a lot of their older reviews have been unpublished (you can run but you can't hide p4k)
posted by en forme de poire at 12:09 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by en forme de poire at 12:09 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
It took me SO long to realize that Pitchfork was no longer The Worst.
I just learned that Pitchfork is still around.
posted by bongo_x at 12:11 AM on February 21, 2016
I just learned that Pitchfork is still around.
posted by bongo_x at 12:11 AM on February 21, 2016
No-one who's tried to play a didgeridoo for more than ten seconds would say Aboriginal music is simple. Honestly, if you have asthma don't try it.
I can't say it's simple or complex (musically, I understand it's a bitch to play without the right breathing technique), but as I recently discovered recorded didgeridoo music, played on your neighbour's stereo at full blast, from no small distance, may be the most annoying recorded music of all time, because once everything but the base is stripped out it's just some loud, pulsating hum.
But, on the other hand, my 18-year-old stoner neighbour was obviously bigging some didge in between the Zepplin and skip-hop.
Kids today don't seem to respect the sub-cultural boundaries we fought for in the Punk Wars.
posted by Mezentian at 12:14 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
I can't say it's simple or complex (musically, I understand it's a bitch to play without the right breathing technique), but as I recently discovered recorded didgeridoo music, played on your neighbour's stereo at full blast, from no small distance, may be the most annoying recorded music of all time, because once everything but the base is stripped out it's just some loud, pulsating hum.
But, on the other hand, my 18-year-old stoner neighbour was obviously bigging some didge in between the Zepplin and skip-hop.
Kids today don't seem to respect the sub-cultural boundaries we fought for in the Punk Wars.
posted by Mezentian at 12:14 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
OH MAN, I THOUGHT THEY'D BEEN MEMORY HOLED BUT I FOUND THEM.
The first one: the first one
The second album:
the second one
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 12:15 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
The first one: the first one
The second album:
the second one
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 12:15 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
To Pimp a Butterfly holds up against any record I've ever loved. The first time I heard "The Blacker the Berry," the last line hit me like a freight train.
Oh and Art Angels . Holy crap Grimes.
And as for rock, there's some great stuff by bands both new and old from the last year (including an amazing Iron Maiden album and everything by Courtney Barnett).
What I'm saying is, hey kids - get into my yard.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:15 AM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
Oh and Art Angels . Holy crap Grimes.
And as for rock, there's some great stuff by bands both new and old from the last year (including an amazing Iron Maiden album and everything by Courtney Barnett).
What I'm saying is, hey kids - get into my yard.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:15 AM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
Not to mention the amazing pop stuff coming out of Korea. "Awoo" by Lim Kim ? More of that please.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:18 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:18 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
The basic takeaway was "This album should have guitars on it. There are no guitars on it. 0.0"
So, that looks like it dates from circa 2003? About 25 years after Numan ditched the guitars and plinked his first beep on a Moog? And the called the Moog "a new weapon to kill by".
Wow. That is bad.
(incidentally, Numan is recording a new album. Yay).
Incidentally, because all music is now a touch of a button away: Moog. Cookbook.
(They are kind of like a terrible Daft Punk, though, and his may in fact be worst music than whatever the kids are into today).
posted by Mezentian at 12:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
So, that looks like it dates from circa 2003? About 25 years after Numan ditched the guitars and plinked his first beep on a Moog? And the called the Moog "a new weapon to kill by".
Wow. That is bad.
(incidentally, Numan is recording a new album. Yay).
Incidentally, because all music is now a touch of a button away: Moog. Cookbook.
(They are kind of like a terrible Daft Punk, though, and his may in fact be worst music than whatever the kids are into today).
posted by Mezentian at 12:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Everyone knows rock achieved perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact!
As a young who firmly believes that popular music peaked in 1979 (when I was age -12) and will never concede that point, the argument here is just the reverse of the argument he critiques. The only authentic music is what's going on now, and if you're missing the cultural zeitgeist, you're abandoning your duty as a fan of music. And there absolutely is new music coming out now that is fantastic. I loved Courtney Barnett's album, everything Colourmusic has put out, Burn Your Fire for no Witness, and all manner of recent releases, but that doesn't mean that I'm part of the problem for returning to Fear of Music, Armed Forces, Unknown Pleasures, and Replicas over and over again. Those albums are indelibly etched into my soul, and there's only so room. And that's okay.
Also, the most recent Dylan Bootleg Series is his best yet and a beautiful look into the making of three of the greatest albums of all time, so forgive me if I buy two copies.
posted by enjoymoreradio at 12:26 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
As a young who firmly believes that popular music peaked in 1979 (when I was age -12) and will never concede that point, the argument here is just the reverse of the argument he critiques. The only authentic music is what's going on now, and if you're missing the cultural zeitgeist, you're abandoning your duty as a fan of music. And there absolutely is new music coming out now that is fantastic. I loved Courtney Barnett's album, everything Colourmusic has put out, Burn Your Fire for no Witness, and all manner of recent releases, but that doesn't mean that I'm part of the problem for returning to Fear of Music, Armed Forces, Unknown Pleasures, and Replicas over and over again. Those albums are indelibly etched into my soul, and there's only so room. And that's okay.
Also, the most recent Dylan Bootleg Series is his best yet and a beautiful look into the making of three of the greatest albums of all time, so forgive me if I buy two copies.
posted by enjoymoreradio at 12:26 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am a big fan of synth records, and the Moog Cookbook are Roger Manning of Jellyfish and Brian Kehew (big studio musician; tours with Air, Beck, the Who). And if you know synth stuff, there's a lot of fun little references in it.
Which, you know, is not like NOOOOO YUO ARE RONG TO NOT LIKE IT!!!
Just... I don't know, it seems like the type of thing to at least have a passing knowledge of before reviewing? (Or, you know, not reviewing at all is fine too! Like I would be the worst person to review a reggae album! because I hate reggae! Which means that my review is _absolutely useless_ because all it says is "if you hate reggae, you will hate this. because it is reggae", but doesn't tell anyone ELSE ANYTHING.
In trying to find those reviews again I stumbled on a thing I'd forgotten I'd written about the Seattle P-I's (RIP) review of Gigantic, the They Might Be Giants documentary. Which was "I hate They Might Be Giants. They should not have a documentary about them. They somehow do. Therefore this is terrible. It is also boring, because the subject matter sucks."
Which... again... maaaaaybe not review that one? (it was funny too, because that one was "special to the pi" which makes me wonder if they pitched the idea or what??)
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 12:27 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Which, you know, is not like NOOOOO YUO ARE RONG TO NOT LIKE IT!!!
Just... I don't know, it seems like the type of thing to at least have a passing knowledge of before reviewing? (Or, you know, not reviewing at all is fine too! Like I would be the worst person to review a reggae album! because I hate reggae! Which means that my review is _absolutely useless_ because all it says is "if you hate reggae, you will hate this. because it is reggae", but doesn't tell anyone ELSE ANYTHING.
In trying to find those reviews again I stumbled on a thing I'd forgotten I'd written about the Seattle P-I's (RIP) review of Gigantic, the They Might Be Giants documentary. Which was "I hate They Might Be Giants. They should not have a documentary about them. They somehow do. Therefore this is terrible. It is also boring, because the subject matter sucks."
Which... again... maaaaaybe not review that one? (it was funny too, because that one was "special to the pi" which makes me wonder if they pitched the idea or what??)
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 12:27 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
(which idea is baffling to me anyway? "Hey, I'm gonna make myself watch a thing I'll hate so I can write a column about a band i hate! so now everyone wll know I hate a band!")
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 12:29 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by Rev. Syung Myung Me at 12:29 AM on February 21, 2016
Also there is an appropriate Kids in the Hall sketch for this discussion.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:32 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:32 AM on February 21, 2016
I'm so torn on this topic because on the one hand my musical tastes have slowly changed over the years (I'd have found the thrash metal and Nitzer Ebb-worshipping EBM that my brain currently craves like it craves caffeine and oxygenated blood completely incomprehensible and boring as a teenager) but at the same time most of what I've got into and out of has either been from the 70's and 80's or drawing on those periods.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:39 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:39 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
And they come with free CDs!
And what am I supposed to with that one? Cannot sit in the car all day.
(I've seen people talk about "radio" in this thread, as well, as if that's something people still listen to other than when they pick up a rental car and that's tuned to some commercial classic rock channel that plays "beds are burning" mixed with advertorials for casino web sites, not because the previous customer actually listened to that shit but because the rental company has a deal with the radio channel... and I don't even have anything against midnight oil, I saw them play that song live in 1857, but there's been roughly 45 million better songs made since that one...)
posted by effbot at 12:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
And what am I supposed to with that one? Cannot sit in the car all day.
(I've seen people talk about "radio" in this thread, as well, as if that's something people still listen to other than when they pick up a rental car and that's tuned to some commercial classic rock channel that plays "beds are burning" mixed with advertorials for casino web sites, not because the previous customer actually listened to that shit but because the rental company has a deal with the radio channel... and I don't even have anything against midnight oil, I saw them play that song live in 1857, but there's been roughly 45 million better songs made since that one...)
posted by effbot at 12:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I listen to the radio. We have some great stations around here, and they play stuff I'm not familiar with.
posted by teponaztli at 1:23 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by teponaztli at 1:23 AM on February 21, 2016
That thing I'm familiar with and enjoy is the best thing there ever was and ever will be, and everything else is mindless crap!
posted by nikoniko at 1:29 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by nikoniko at 1:29 AM on February 21, 2016
It’s not like the Beatles woke up one morning, went into the studio, cut “Norwegian Wood,” then went to lunch.
That's pretty much exactly what happened, except it was later in the day and they would have gone to The Ad Lib club or The Scotch of St James afterwards. What is this guy on about?
posted by colie at 1:36 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
That's pretty much exactly what happened, except it was later in the day and they would have gone to The Ad Lib club or The Scotch of St James afterwards. What is this guy on about?
posted by colie at 1:36 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Man, you guys are hilarious.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 1:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 1:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Interesting fact: there is now less time between the birth of Jesus and Vanilla Ice's groundbreaking record, "Ice Ice Baby" than there is between the last Ice age and time when you were a baby. And if that doesn't make you feel old, you have neither collaborated NOR listened.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:53 AM on February 21, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:53 AM on February 21, 2016 [26 favorites]
Fusilli, you crazy bastard!
posted by From Bklyn at 1:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 1:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
There's a very good reason why people report that music is less interesting now - because it has gotten simpler over time by every numerical metric you can think of.
I was a music major in college, in the late 80's, and one of my textbooks, while ostensibly a history of American pop music in the first half of the 20th century, spent about half of the text attempting to *prove* that all pop music made past about 1955 was distinctly, measurably "worse" than the pop music made before that, by examining chord progressions and melodic complexity and lyrical content and rhyme schemes and so on and so forth ad nauseam. It was utter nonsense.
So, yeah. Same as it ever was, been there, done that, didn't buy it then, not buyin' it now.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
I was a music major in college, in the late 80's, and one of my textbooks, while ostensibly a history of American pop music in the first half of the 20th century, spent about half of the text attempting to *prove* that all pop music made past about 1955 was distinctly, measurably "worse" than the pop music made before that, by examining chord progressions and melodic complexity and lyrical content and rhyme schemes and so on and so forth ad nauseam. It was utter nonsense.
So, yeah. Same as it ever was, been there, done that, didn't buy it then, not buyin' it now.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
Because it seems kind of bullshit to me to consider the difference between a recorder and a flageolet but not the difference between any two synth patches.
Yeah, from reading their Methods, they just scraped the "who played what" info from Discogs. Which leads to the hilarious statement from the paper: "‘electronic music’ is characterized by synthesizer, turntables, samplers, drum programming, and computers."
Yeah, I mean sure, I bet they can do a good job clustering musical styles from that info (often because of one-off tells like "bones" being linked to death metal only, lol), and you might be able to extract some useful trend data for some genres over time, which I think is neat. But they're not going to be able to make any statements comparing genres in terms of their absolute timbral complexity from scraping liner notes, ffs.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, from reading their Methods, they just scraped the "who played what" info from Discogs. Which leads to the hilarious statement from the paper: "‘electronic music’ is characterized by synthesizer, turntables, samplers, drum programming, and computers."
Yeah, I mean sure, I bet they can do a good job clustering musical styles from that info (often because of one-off tells like "bones" being linked to death metal only, lol), and you might be able to extract some useful trend data for some genres over time, which I think is neat. But they're not going to be able to make any statements comparing genres in terms of their absolute timbral complexity from scraping liner notes, ffs.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think you can make a fairly good case that instrumentation, timbre, 'complexity' and surface textures in general are pretty unimportant in musical taste in the long term. Sure there are experiments over the years, and new technologies need to be sold, but soon these settle down, and in the vast majority of instances the artist uses surface elements to indicate a song's genre to the listener instantly. (Pop music listeners generally hate any ambiguity about genre, because you might get caught out accidentally liking the wrong thing. At the same time, they deny passionately that they're worried about accidentally liking the wrong thing).
What brings people's ears back again and again is structural tension and release. You could make a case that the phrase and cadence structures that create this tension and release have become less tonal, and more rhythm-based, in the last 50 years or so.
posted by colie at 2:44 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
What brings people's ears back again and again is structural tension and release. You could make a case that the phrase and cadence structures that create this tension and release have become less tonal, and more rhythm-based, in the last 50 years or so.
posted by colie at 2:44 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, I'm 49 in June and my car radio stopped working for a few months a year or so ago and I was forced to burn compilation cds to play whilst driving to and from work and it was awful (that's a step up, if it had happened two years before then I would have been making a compilation tape). I mean, I only chose songs that I really liked but it was just so ... I don't know ... been there, done that?
I only listen to two radio stations, both are non-commercial and neither of them play top 40. There are genres of music that I've never really been a fan of so it's always seemed so stupid when I hear people complaining about pop singers of today and comparing them to the non pop-singers that they used to listen to in back in the day (or whatever other genre comparison you want).
There's excellent music being released today and there's excellent music to listen to from back then and I just really really don't understand why everyone wants to be so divisive about it all the time?
I know I feel like I'm missing out if I just listen to all of my old stuff, that's all. And I try not to listen to genres of music that I don't appreciate although there are always exceptions and sometimes it's good to open your mind and not be so locked into 'I've always hated *insert example here* and this new shit's even worse than the crap that was around when I was younger grumble harumph'. That kind of attitude is what makes you old.
posted by h00py at 2:49 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I only listen to two radio stations, both are non-commercial and neither of them play top 40. There are genres of music that I've never really been a fan of so it's always seemed so stupid when I hear people complaining about pop singers of today and comparing them to the non pop-singers that they used to listen to in back in the day (or whatever other genre comparison you want).
There's excellent music being released today and there's excellent music to listen to from back then and I just really really don't understand why everyone wants to be so divisive about it all the time?
I know I feel like I'm missing out if I just listen to all of my old stuff, that's all. And I try not to listen to genres of music that I don't appreciate although there are always exceptions and sometimes it's good to open your mind and not be so locked into 'I've always hated *insert example here* and this new shit's even worse than the crap that was around when I was younger grumble harumph'. That kind of attitude is what makes you old.
posted by h00py at 2:49 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
. Back in the day your local AM station had a 10-song playlist, and all of those songs came from the same places.
and this is where the original author loses me to the point where i have a hard time trusting anything else he says - because this statement is laughably and provably WRONG
count up the number of top 40 songs in 1967 - count up the number of top 40 songs last year - there were more than twice as many different hit songs back then as there are now - look it up in the whitman billboard books, this is verifiable fact
who is buying the catalog (old music cds)? it's not old people, they already have those cds - it's younger people - and catalog cds are outselling new cds by quite a bit
who's behind the vinyl resurrection? - i can't believe it's old people who grew up with it - they should know better, i do
who writes an article about new music vs old music and utterly fails to mention country music, which oddly enough, is the one genre of music where new artists are thriving and old ones are being ignored?
if music means as much these days, why isn't it selling as much? - and no, don't tell me about piracy on the internet until you can explain what happened to all the rock and roll bars, too, until you can explain why many up and coming bands are having to "pay to play" in them, until you can explain why the standard deal for tv and movie music has changed from a decent out front payment plus royalties to "you'll get exposure, man, we're not paying you", and you can explain why the dvd/video game industries are still going strong and the music industry isn't
music isn't as meaningful - all i have to do is follow the money to come to that conclusion - catalog music sales have caught up to new music sales - the industry from top to bottom isn't paying people like they used to and the sales have declined terribly - i have to conclude that music today just isn't as compelling - that's not based on my opinion, it's not based on what people say, it's based on what people DO - with their money
posted by pyramid termite at 3:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
and this is where the original author loses me to the point where i have a hard time trusting anything else he says - because this statement is laughably and provably WRONG
count up the number of top 40 songs in 1967 - count up the number of top 40 songs last year - there were more than twice as many different hit songs back then as there are now - look it up in the whitman billboard books, this is verifiable fact
who is buying the catalog (old music cds)? it's not old people, they already have those cds - it's younger people - and catalog cds are outselling new cds by quite a bit
who's behind the vinyl resurrection? - i can't believe it's old people who grew up with it - they should know better, i do
who writes an article about new music vs old music and utterly fails to mention country music, which oddly enough, is the one genre of music where new artists are thriving and old ones are being ignored?
if music means as much these days, why isn't it selling as much? - and no, don't tell me about piracy on the internet until you can explain what happened to all the rock and roll bars, too, until you can explain why many up and coming bands are having to "pay to play" in them, until you can explain why the standard deal for tv and movie music has changed from a decent out front payment plus royalties to "you'll get exposure, man, we're not paying you", and you can explain why the dvd/video game industries are still going strong and the music industry isn't
music isn't as meaningful - all i have to do is follow the money to come to that conclusion - catalog music sales have caught up to new music sales - the industry from top to bottom isn't paying people like they used to and the sales have declined terribly - i have to conclude that music today just isn't as compelling - that's not based on my opinion, it's not based on what people say, it's based on what people DO - with their money
posted by pyramid termite at 3:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Which leads to the hilarious statement from the paper: "‘electronic music’ is characterized by synthesizer, turntables, samplers, drum programming, and computers."
technically speaking, it all became electronic music in the late 20s when they started using electronic microphones and amps in the recording process
posted by pyramid termite at 3:20 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
technically speaking, it all became electronic music in the late 20s when they started using electronic microphones and amps in the recording process
posted by pyramid termite at 3:20 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
not to mention the barbaric habit of using electronics to play back the recording
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:31 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:31 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
These days all of my favourite bands play in local pubs. They are generally talented musicians who play for sheer joy and beer money. Regardless of what happens in the recording industry we will always have these guys. Over the years some of these bands went on to find fame (U2 and Boomtown Rats come to mind). Some of the best simply disappeared as their members settled down and got real jobs. Their kids are now playing in bands and singing songs that were old when I was young. I find this strange. I did not like my father's music.
posted by night_train at 3:44 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by night_train at 3:44 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
The 60's was a period when some of the brightest kids took a look around and chose rock as a career. The equivalent cohort today is in software development or finance. The brightest go where the money and glamor are, and that was music for a brief window. Not any more.
posted by grubby at 3:48 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by grubby at 3:48 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
"The 60's was a period when some of the brightest kids took a look around and chose rock as a career. The equivalent cohort today is in software development or finance. The brightest go where the money and glamor are, and that was music for a brief window. Not any more."
This is a parody of some sort, right?
Right?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:09 AM on February 21, 2016 [21 favorites]
This is a parody of some sort, right?
Right?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:09 AM on February 21, 2016 [21 favorites]
The song that is playing the moment you hit puberty is with you for life.
Memory is infused with the emotions that marked the original experience. Puberty is a time of emotional inundation powerfully evoked by music.
posted by Jode at 4:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Memory is infused with the emotions that marked the original experience. Puberty is a time of emotional inundation powerfully evoked by music.
posted by Jode at 4:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
What brings people's ears back again and again is structural tension and release. You could make a case that the phrase and cadence structures that create this tension and release have become less tonal, and more rhythm-based, in the last 50 years or so.
Tension and release are also conveyed through timbre. A pretty straightforward example is the trope of the rising and falling low-pass filter (and related techniques involving adding or subtracting overtones over time) in electronic music I'd also argue that singers do it with changes in their tone of voice all the time - the might be more controversial because they're often simultaneously working with e.g. simple loudness.
posted by atoxyl at 4:14 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Tension and release are also conveyed through timbre. A pretty straightforward example is the trope of the rising and falling low-pass filter (and related techniques involving adding or subtracting overtones over time) in electronic music I'd also argue that singers do it with changes in their tone of voice all the time - the might be more controversial because they're often simultaneously working with e.g. simple loudness.
posted by atoxyl at 4:14 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
The classic example being the acid line (not actually a 303!) in this.
Or here's a contemporary (but rather orthodox structurally) entry in the same tradition.
posted by atoxyl at 4:28 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or here's a contemporary (but rather orthodox structurally) entry in the same tradition.
posted by atoxyl at 4:28 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love Courtney Barnett, but I keep waiting for her to acknowledge The Fall as an influence
posted by pxe2000 at 4:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 4:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Scarcity has an influence - back in the day, I had to decide which album to buy - a very very important decision - when you only have enough dosh to pick up one of the 4 albums you're carrying around the store. Nowadays, quick download and pick up any band's full catalog . I think this makes a difference in engagement.
posted by parki at 4:51 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by parki at 4:51 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think music is better now than it's ever been, but there's so much more of it now that it is impossible to keep up. And I think that commercial radio has gotten worse - it's basically become a delivery system for ads that appeal to the 18-to-34 or 18-to-25 demographic.
The Internet has everything, but it's often rigidly sorted by subgenre and isn't curated at all. Learning about a new genre is like learning a new language - you have to develop a vocabulary. It's hard work, and the temptation is there to just go back and listen to things you already know. But I want to make the effort - I don't want to become one of those fossils stuck in the 1970s or 1980s.
I also semi-facetiously think that if I like something, it immediately stops being cool, since I'm an old fart now (I'm 55). It's instantly labelled "Dad Rock".
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 4:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Internet has everything, but it's often rigidly sorted by subgenre and isn't curated at all. Learning about a new genre is like learning a new language - you have to develop a vocabulary. It's hard work, and the temptation is there to just go back and listen to things you already know. But I want to make the effort - I don't want to become one of those fossils stuck in the 1970s or 1980s.
I also semi-facetiously think that if I like something, it immediately stops being cool, since I'm an old fart now (I'm 55). It's instantly labelled "Dad Rock".
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 4:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
No, that's real
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:00 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:00 AM on February 21, 2016
Great discussion! I love this question, and not just because music is my primary vocation and my primary avocation.
The only point that I haven't seen discussed yet -- and keep in mind that I say this as a new wave kid who hated all things pre-'78 -- is that the 1960s and '70s didn't just produce a lot of good music. They produced more youth, more disaffected and alienated youth than any other generation. (Sorry, don't have statistics here -- pretty sure it's true though.)
So, you could argue that the 1960s and '70s produced more good music simply because there were more young artistic types to produce it than any other generation. And since there are still so many of those Boomers around, the rest of culture can't help but get sucked into that black hole that arises every time a Bowie dies. (And imagine what it'll be like for Dylan or McCartney...)
Personally, I listen to more contemporary music than classic rock -- my most-listened-to artists last year were all "new" (Chastity Belt, Laura Marling, Julia Holter, Father John Misty, Shamir, Jamie xx, SOPHIE, etc.). But the historian in me loves listening to the '60s & '70s for all the social turmoil that's reflected in that music.
posted by saintjoe at 5:05 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
The only point that I haven't seen discussed yet -- and keep in mind that I say this as a new wave kid who hated all things pre-'78 -- is that the 1960s and '70s didn't just produce a lot of good music. They produced more youth, more disaffected and alienated youth than any other generation. (Sorry, don't have statistics here -- pretty sure it's true though.)
So, you could argue that the 1960s and '70s produced more good music simply because there were more young artistic types to produce it than any other generation. And since there are still so many of those Boomers around, the rest of culture can't help but get sucked into that black hole that arises every time a Bowie dies. (And imagine what it'll be like for Dylan or McCartney...)
Personally, I listen to more contemporary music than classic rock -- my most-listened-to artists last year were all "new" (Chastity Belt, Laura Marling, Julia Holter, Father John Misty, Shamir, Jamie xx, SOPHIE, etc.). But the historian in me loves listening to the '60s & '70s for all the social turmoil that's reflected in that music.
posted by saintjoe at 5:05 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
For most of sixth grade, I listened to a lot of '80s teen pop...mostly Debbie Gibson. When I was in middle school, the cliques were formed around music, and I thought I fit in better with the girls who liked teen pop than the kids who love liked metal. (I also--at that young age--hated the homophobia and misogyny in the metal scene.) By the end of sixth grade, I discovered Sassy magazine and WFNX and outgrew Debbie.
For years after this revelation, I treated my sixth grade dalliance in teen pop as a dirty secret. I'd fallen in love with punk rock and wanted to be taken seriously as a music critic, and I worried that if anyone knew I was into teen pop at one point, my reputation would be ruined.
With "poptimism" becoming a thing, I have made peace with my childhood love of Debbie, and I can even acknowledge that she had some fun pop jamz. However, I don't really need to go back and listen to her again. She served her purpose in 1989, and I'm in a different place in my life.
Pop music seems to be in a golden age right now. I wonder, though, how many kids listening today are going to move on to something else and react against Bieber (for example) as their taste refines. Bieber might give them a nostalgic feeling, but will they turn him up or will he be a symbol of something they don't need to revisit?
posted by pxe2000 at 5:08 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
For years after this revelation, I treated my sixth grade dalliance in teen pop as a dirty secret. I'd fallen in love with punk rock and wanted to be taken seriously as a music critic, and I worried that if anyone knew I was into teen pop at one point, my reputation would be ruined.
With "poptimism" becoming a thing, I have made peace with my childhood love of Debbie, and I can even acknowledge that she had some fun pop jamz. However, I don't really need to go back and listen to her again. She served her purpose in 1989, and I'm in a different place in my life.
Pop music seems to be in a golden age right now. I wonder, though, how many kids listening today are going to move on to something else and react against Bieber (for example) as their taste refines. Bieber might give them a nostalgic feeling, but will they turn him up or will he be a symbol of something they don't need to revisit?
posted by pxe2000 at 5:08 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Just going to chuck in that music education now, access to music, and stuff you can play it on is massively better than when I started.
Which was back when the Oxford comma was a thing.
posted by Wolof at 5:09 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which was back when the Oxford comma was a thing.
posted by Wolof at 5:09 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I still have a problem enjoying AutoTune vocals. But I thought it was very cool when Frampton did a similar thing with that tube to his guitar...
posted by nofundy at 5:09 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by nofundy at 5:09 AM on February 21, 2016
imagine what it'll be like for Dylan or McCartney...
Oh I have, I have...
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:15 AM on February 21, 2016
Oh I have, I have...
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:15 AM on February 21, 2016
So, you could argue that the 1960s and '70s produced more good music simply because there were more young artistic types to produce it than any other generation.
A big thing in the UK was that in the 60's a lot of talented working class kids were able to go to art school, and a ton of great bands came out of that. That's mostly out of their reach these days and it's striking how many British musicians these days come from a well-off background.
posted by kersplunk at 5:18 AM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
A big thing in the UK was that in the 60's a lot of talented working class kids were able to go to art school, and a ton of great bands came out of that. That's mostly out of their reach these days and it's striking how many British musicians these days come from a well-off background.
posted by kersplunk at 5:18 AM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
Tension and release are also conveyed through timbre.
Fair enough but I would think they are still surface effects, not cadential release or manipulations of phrase rhythm.
One of the reasons some people still believe 60s pop was more inventive is because at that time, as part of the general democratising and softening of class, leisure, and education barriers for newly affluent young people in the west, musicians freely imported things that truly had not been heard before in 'disposable' pop music such as the infamous Aeolian cadence (which is now heard often in EDM).
Some of the imports were purely timbral, but some worked at a deeper syntactical level within the music's manipulation of time and tension (a level that some pop musicologists insist does not exist, which is also a valid argument). But I would contend that very few new 'deep structure' effects get imported into pop music nowadays, which complements our generally impoverished social horizons, compared to the 60s (see kersplunk's point above).
posted by colie at 5:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fair enough but I would think they are still surface effects, not cadential release or manipulations of phrase rhythm.
One of the reasons some people still believe 60s pop was more inventive is because at that time, as part of the general democratising and softening of class, leisure, and education barriers for newly affluent young people in the west, musicians freely imported things that truly had not been heard before in 'disposable' pop music such as the infamous Aeolian cadence (which is now heard often in EDM).
Some of the imports were purely timbral, but some worked at a deeper syntactical level within the music's manipulation of time and tension (a level that some pop musicologists insist does not exist, which is also a valid argument). But I would contend that very few new 'deep structure' effects get imported into pop music nowadays, which complements our generally impoverished social horizons, compared to the 60s (see kersplunk's point above).
posted by colie at 5:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
the main Autotune company has a guitar product now, which, you know, bends and vibrato are never going to be quite right, no matter how clever the processing, but it would be cool to have perfect intonation for chordal playing
posted by thelonius at 5:23 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by thelonius at 5:23 AM on February 21, 2016
the main Autotune company has a guitar product now, which, you know, bends and vibrato are never going to be quite right
It was my understanding that in big pop, everything has been going through Auto-tune for a while now, including all the guitars, and this is the texture you end up with. (Warning: Bad).
posted by colie at 5:32 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was my understanding that in big pop, everything has been going through Auto-tune for a while now, including all the guitars, and this is the texture you end up with. (Warning: Bad).
posted by colie at 5:32 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love Courtney Barnett, but I keep waiting for her to acknowledge The Fall yt as an influence yt
Wait until she joins The Fall...
posted by Mezentian at 5:36 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait until she joins The Fall...
posted by Mezentian at 5:36 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fair enough but I would think they are still surface effects, not cadential release or manipulations of phrase rhythm.
The way you're defining "surface" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this argument. I might argue that defining e.g. notes on a staff as the "core" and everything else as "surface" mostly seems like a convincing natural distinction for historical reasons, not reasons that are intrinsic to our experience of music.
posted by en forme de poire at 5:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
The way you're defining "surface" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this argument. I might argue that defining e.g. notes on a staff as the "core" and everything else as "surface" mostly seems like a convincing natural distinction for historical reasons, not reasons that are intrinsic to our experience of music.
posted by en forme de poire at 5:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fair enough but I would think they are still surface effects, not cadential release or manipulations of phrase rhythm.
What EFDP said but - I know you're using those words in that particular sense. However my point is that there is plenty of music - whole genres of music - that prove that the a song can be carried to a significant extent by what you are calling surface effects.
posted by atoxyl at 5:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
What EFDP said but - I know you're using those words in that particular sense. However my point is that there is plenty of music - whole genres of music - that prove that the a song can be carried to a significant extent by what you are calling surface effects.
posted by atoxyl at 5:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
All this leaves me wondering who pumped the wind in my doughnut.
I wasn't there when the pumping was done, but whosoever pumped it was a pumping son-of-a-gun.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 5:56 AM on February 21, 2016
I wasn't there when the pumping was done, but whosoever pumped it was a pumping son-of-a-gun.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 5:56 AM on February 21, 2016
All this leaves me wondering who pumped the wind in my doughnut.
it was terence or phillip
posted by pyramid termite at 6:11 AM on February 21, 2016
it was terence or phillip
posted by pyramid termite at 6:11 AM on February 21, 2016
Somewhat related, I guess: this year's Polar Music Prize winner (for comparison, the award's first winner). I'd say "discuss!" but there's already a bit of a flame war going on in Swedish press and I'm out of popcorn anyway.
posted by effbot at 6:11 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by effbot at 6:11 AM on February 21, 2016
The flip side of this is the belief that we are always living in a golden age of pop -- that kids today have it better, musically, then kids of any other era. It's very hard to imagine that's true. I like Fusilli's take: "as good as it's ever been." Not better, but as good. And next decade's pop will be as good as ours.
posted by escabeche at 6:11 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 6:11 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
It seems there is musical mediocrity in every era, but some eras (like now) are more mediocre than others. So called country music is a prime (Colie's) example. But remember, when the Beatles were big in the mid-60's, so was Herman Hermits. And when Hendrix was was hot, so was the 1910 Fruitgum Company.
posted by tommyD at 6:13 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by tommyD at 6:13 AM on February 21, 2016
I love Courtney Barnett, but I keep waiting for her to acknowledge The Fall as an influence
So when I was in my early 20s I fell in love with Pavement, as one does (if one is exactly as old as I am and went to certain colleges) and older / more knowledgable people kept saying "Don't you get that this is the same thing as The Fall, why aren't you listening to The Fall?" and here's the thing -- that was probably true for them, but it wasn't true for me, and even after I listened to the Fall, that didn't become true, because Pavement was what I imprinted on and had become the sound in whose context I heard other sounds. While for Fall fans it was the other way around.
posted by escabeche at 6:15 AM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
So when I was in my early 20s I fell in love with Pavement, as one does (if one is exactly as old as I am and went to certain colleges) and older / more knowledgable people kept saying "Don't you get that this is the same thing as The Fall, why aren't you listening to The Fall?" and here's the thing -- that was probably true for them, but it wasn't true for me, and even after I listened to the Fall, that didn't become true, because Pavement was what I imprinted on and had become the sound in whose context I heard other sounds. While for Fall fans it was the other way around.
posted by escabeche at 6:15 AM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
I listen to a far wider variety of music now than I did as a teenager, when all I listened to was punk and a little bit of new wave. The most common way I find music now is seeing something mentioned or linked in a post or comment here, or in another place online, listening to a few minutes on youtube, and then setting it up on Pandora to listen while driving.
I still own a bunch of CDs, a big box of tapes, and even a few records, but after my stereo died the other month there is no way to listen to anything other than streaming or digital music in the house right now, and I haven't listened to any of those physical things in years. The next time we move I will probably haul it all, or all except for a few nostalgic items, to the thrift store -- it just isn't how I experience music anymore.
So for me the last ten or fifteen years have been of finding new (or old but new to me) music and finding that I enjoy a lot more kinds of music than I thought I did. My interest in and enjoyment of experimental music keeps going up, too, though I don't have the background for some of the really out there stuff. The biases from my youth linger, though, and I will never, ever be a fan of hair metal or of 1970s album rock, for all that it was influential and important.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 AM on February 21, 2016
I still own a bunch of CDs, a big box of tapes, and even a few records, but after my stereo died the other month there is no way to listen to anything other than streaming or digital music in the house right now, and I haven't listened to any of those physical things in years. The next time we move I will probably haul it all, or all except for a few nostalgic items, to the thrift store -- it just isn't how I experience music anymore.
So for me the last ten or fifteen years have been of finding new (or old but new to me) music and finding that I enjoy a lot more kinds of music than I thought I did. My interest in and enjoyment of experimental music keeps going up, too, though I don't have the background for some of the really out there stuff. The biases from my youth linger, though, and I will never, ever be a fan of hair metal or of 1970s album rock, for all that it was influential and important.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 AM on February 21, 2016
I think what's tricky for me is that, with the constant availability of everything, quite a lot of old music is new-to-me. Last week turned into early Comet Gain week and then into Orange Juice week (because of the You Can Hide Your Love Forever/You Can't Hide Your Love Forever business) and while I had heard some Orange Juice before, the last time I tried You Can't Hide Your Love Forever just was not the right time, and now I am obsessed with that album, it's so good.
Also, the Fall is not the same as Pavement. The Fall is meant to be a much more difficult and hateful listening experience than Pavement. I used to listen to Slanted and Enchanted on headphones to help me sleep on long bus trips - try that with Mark E Smith, not that I don't like Mark E Smith.
posted by Frowner at 6:19 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, the Fall is not the same as Pavement. The Fall is meant to be a much more difficult and hateful listening experience than Pavement. I used to listen to Slanted and Enchanted on headphones to help me sleep on long bus trips - try that with Mark E Smith, not that I don't like Mark E Smith.
posted by Frowner at 6:19 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm not a Beatles fan, but I have studied their music, because the chordal progression and songwriting is astounding. I can listen to the tonality, the progressions, the timing, and really - the magic of their music and I can appreciate what makes it good music. In general though, if a Beatles song comes on, I probably turn the dial because while its great - it doesn't speak to me and I'd rather find something that does. Now if Zepplin or Hendrix crosses my radio (which Zepplin still does with some frequency, but I feel that I hear Hendrix less and less) I turn that shit up. But in general, I don't listen to that either.
I like dynamics in my music, and somehow those have disappeared from production despite production improving so much in so many other ways over the years. Range compression is the devil. But, the knowledge of sampling, layering, and otherwise building an orchestral soundscape on which a songwriters lyrics and tune are played over has seriously never had such hardcore knowledge of what works and what a song needs to work.
And regardless of listening to a great soundscape, I still find myself listening to more solo projects, acoustic, experimental bloviating bullshit, and social justice rap than I used to.
But yeah, as someone pointed out earlier my music acquisition slowed down in my 30s. Simply put I stopped going to clubs and bar, I grew too old inside for that particular social scene, and then there's that other part about having kids. I still probably acquire a few new band every month (right at the top of this thread I found (2) Courtney Barnett, (3) Royal Headache and (1) Rolling Blackouts Coastal Fever - ranked by my preference).. Pandora and Independent/College radio stations in the area usually supply the others.
Now my kids are 4 and 7, and suddenly they are developing musical interests. My daughter is apparently learning the words (and mostly the tune) of Crosby Stills Nash - Southern Cross.... which she'll gladly sing over my NPR or if I pick a song she doesn't like on the radio... as I said, she's developing musical interests - not necessarily taste. She'll also pick up any microphone, turn it on and sing whatever song she feels like (including her own original songs now), but if you try a duet for you... she'll walk over to you - still singing - look you in the eyes, and then put her finger to your lips and say "shhh". My son meanwhile likes songs from movies and songs for running Spartan races (like Kongos- Come with me Now which he'll gladly shout from the backseat if he's going to Karate, or to play soccer, or over to my wife's studio). He definitely picks music with an edge, and recognizes "his music". This of course is interesting when he breaks into We Will Rock You/We Are the Champions and asks when that band is releasing their next album.
Anyways, point is. Kids/ early 30s do take a way some music... but then you get it back... and when you get it back - it can be awesome.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:48 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I like dynamics in my music, and somehow those have disappeared from production despite production improving so much in so many other ways over the years. Range compression is the devil. But, the knowledge of sampling, layering, and otherwise building an orchestral soundscape on which a songwriters lyrics and tune are played over has seriously never had such hardcore knowledge of what works and what a song needs to work.
And regardless of listening to a great soundscape, I still find myself listening to more solo projects, acoustic, experimental bloviating bullshit, and social justice rap than I used to.
But yeah, as someone pointed out earlier my music acquisition slowed down in my 30s. Simply put I stopped going to clubs and bar, I grew too old inside for that particular social scene, and then there's that other part about having kids. I still probably acquire a few new band every month (right at the top of this thread I found (2) Courtney Barnett, (3) Royal Headache and (1) Rolling Blackouts Coastal Fever - ranked by my preference).. Pandora and Independent/College radio stations in the area usually supply the others.
Now my kids are 4 and 7, and suddenly they are developing musical interests. My daughter is apparently learning the words (and mostly the tune) of Crosby Stills Nash - Southern Cross.... which she'll gladly sing over my NPR or if I pick a song she doesn't like on the radio... as I said, she's developing musical interests - not necessarily taste. She'll also pick up any microphone, turn it on and sing whatever song she feels like (including her own original songs now), but if you try a duet for you... she'll walk over to you - still singing - look you in the eyes, and then put her finger to your lips and say "shhh". My son meanwhile likes songs from movies and songs for running Spartan races (like Kongos- Come with me Now which he'll gladly shout from the backseat if he's going to Karate, or to play soccer, or over to my wife's studio). He definitely picks music with an edge, and recognizes "his music". This of course is interesting when he breaks into We Will Rock You/We Are the Champions and asks when that band is releasing their next album.
Anyways, point is. Kids/ early 30s do take a way some music... but then you get it back... and when you get it back - it can be awesome.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:48 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think what's tricky for me is that, with the constant availability of everything, quite a lot of old music is new-to-me.
This. I've been reading books about music history, and I keep stopping and looking up old songs on YouTube. Everything's out there now.
A few years ago, I discovered 1990s shoegaze (Ride, Slowdive, Chapterhouse), and lately I've been into 1960s and 1970s Jamaican rocksteady. And there's more - so much more.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:52 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
This. I've been reading books about music history, and I keep stopping and looking up old songs on YouTube. Everything's out there now.
A few years ago, I discovered 1990s shoegaze (Ride, Slowdive, Chapterhouse), and lately I've been into 1960s and 1970s Jamaican rocksteady. And there's more - so much more.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:52 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I will trot out my standard line, which is that I belong to the Lemmy (RIP) school of music appreciation: there's only two kinds of music, the kind you like, and the kind you don't.
Since I no longer live with or near the friends I used to discover music with (coming home with a new album, chucking it in the CD player, listening all together, whining "NEEEXXXXXT" when we didn't like a track), I have had to explore alternate options. Pandora is awesome for this, IME. I put in a huge mishmash of what I already like (Miles Davis, The Stones, Zero 7, Luna, Public Enemy, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Simple Minds, All India Radio, Sia) and Pandora finds me other stuff that people who like that also like, and a lot of it is new. And then I say yes or no to the suggestions, and on it goes. I have discovered SO MANY bands through Pandora. And music on television shows and in movies is SO MUCH better than it used to be, I find new music through TV and movie soundtracks all the time. F'rex I would never have found my beloved Black Rebel Motorcycle Club without Sons of Anarchy.
You don't know where you're going unless you also know where you've been. So don't put The Beatles record down.
posted by biscotti at 6:53 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Since I no longer live with or near the friends I used to discover music with (coming home with a new album, chucking it in the CD player, listening all together, whining "NEEEXXXXXT" when we didn't like a track), I have had to explore alternate options. Pandora is awesome for this, IME. I put in a huge mishmash of what I already like (Miles Davis, The Stones, Zero 7, Luna, Public Enemy, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Simple Minds, All India Radio, Sia) and Pandora finds me other stuff that people who like that also like, and a lot of it is new. And then I say yes or no to the suggestions, and on it goes. I have discovered SO MANY bands through Pandora. And music on television shows and in movies is SO MUCH better than it used to be, I find new music through TV and movie soundtracks all the time. F'rex I would never have found my beloved Black Rebel Motorcycle Club without Sons of Anarchy.
You don't know where you're going unless you also know where you've been. So don't put The Beatles record down.
posted by biscotti at 6:53 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
As bad as the streaming music economy can be, that Spotify Discover Weekly thing introduced me to Bettye Swann, Karen Dalton, and The Roches. So there's that.
posted by sallybrown at 6:59 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by sallybrown at 6:59 AM on February 21, 2016
I'm a semi-old who mostly listens to newer music. Not much into nostalgia. But I was talking to my teenage son the other day. He was asking me some question about Bowie. And I realized, holy crap, there's a lot of music he has no idea about.
So I started putting together a playlist for him, and then I started getting obsessed with it. There's so much! So I limited myself to just one song per artist.
What I ended up with was this list, which is basically a heavily biased overview of western music of the last 60 years. I don't know that he'll ever listen to it, but it's there on his phone should he choose to.
Really it just scratches the surface - but what's insane about Spotify (or Apple Music or whatever) is if he hears something he likes, he's one tap from their whole catalog.
So if anyone else wants this list, go ahead and shuffle play that sucker. Just be warned: I usually go for the explicit versions, if you're listening with young children. And if there's anything missing that's so vital it makes you want to report me for child abuse, let me know. I am not a music scholar, though, be merciful.
posted by fungible at 7:02 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
So I started putting together a playlist for him, and then I started getting obsessed with it. There's so much! So I limited myself to just one song per artist.
What I ended up with was this list, which is basically a heavily biased overview of western music of the last 60 years. I don't know that he'll ever listen to it, but it's there on his phone should he choose to.
Really it just scratches the surface - but what's insane about Spotify (or Apple Music or whatever) is if he hears something he likes, he's one tap from their whole catalog.
So if anyone else wants this list, go ahead and shuffle play that sucker. Just be warned: I usually go for the explicit versions, if you're listening with young children. And if there's anything missing that's so vital it makes you want to report me for child abuse, let me know. I am not a music scholar, though, be merciful.
posted by fungible at 7:02 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have no idea what the youth of today are up to, but anecdotally I hear that for many of them there isn't as big a mental divide between "new" and "old" music as there was when I was a kid, because everything's out there at the tap of a keyboard.
Personally, like a lot of people it seems, I stopped going out of my way to seek out new music in my mid-30s or thereabouts, but my wife and some of my friends still make more of an effort than I do, so I hear it through them and some of it I love (Jungle!). Streaming is awesome*, but I admit to finding it a bit overwhelming sometimes; it's too easy to skip ahead to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, and as a result it's harder for music I listen to that way to make as big as an impression on me as stuff on vinyl or even CDs (which I've recently gone back to listening to).
* seriously, when I was a little kid and believed in heaven I thought that one of the things you'd have up there would be a magic radio that could play any song you wanted, and now I have one and it's cool and all but no big deal
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:12 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Personally, like a lot of people it seems, I stopped going out of my way to seek out new music in my mid-30s or thereabouts, but my wife and some of my friends still make more of an effort than I do, so I hear it through them and some of it I love (Jungle!). Streaming is awesome*, but I admit to finding it a bit overwhelming sometimes; it's too easy to skip ahead to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, and as a result it's harder for music I listen to that way to make as big as an impression on me as stuff on vinyl or even CDs (which I've recently gone back to listening to).
* seriously, when I was a little kid and believed in heaven I thought that one of the things you'd have up there would be a magic radio that could play any song you wanted, and now I have one and it's cool and all but no big deal
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:12 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I brought up the Fall/Courtney Barnett comparison for two reasons: knee-jerk impulse (I love her work, but the first time I heard "Pedestrian at Best" I kept waiting for it to turn into "Container Drivers" or "Kicker Conspiracy"); and because every time someone compares her to that obnoxious Viking masculinity bad classic rock subgenre known as "grunge" I keep thinking that her work is stranger, funnier, and more percussive than that. She's not as confrontational as Mark E. Smith, but her skill at telling strange and funny vignettes is there.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pxe2000 at 7:19 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Old people lamenting the death of popular music amuses me, because regardless of what's on the radio -- or however hit music is promoted these days -- it's the golden age for anyone interested in music, in exploring their own tastes.
I was an oddball teenager who hung out in the "classical and world music" back room of the local record shop. This was the limit of what I could explore. It was a good shop, but how could that ever compare to the internet?
I've discovered so much because of the internet. I would never have known about Zhou Xuan, Ali Farka Touré, Angel Haze, Talib Kweli, Bo Ningen, and so on.
If I'm honest I'll say that I think a lot of popular music is crap. Not all of it -- but a lot of it. I tuned out early on, because finding the good songs wasn't worth listening to all the bad ones. But I'm actually more into popular music too now than ever, again because of the internet. I probably wouldn't have known about Beyonce or Janelle Monae if they came out fifteen years ago. So, like, for me it's also a golden age for pop music!
So, yeah -- if there is a lack of variety and complexity, it's because you're not looking for it. It's out there. A lack of variety is more about what gets marketed at the top tier than what gets made. Complaining about music being worse now is like complaining that literature is worse because the bestsellers rack at the grocery store only has Tom Clancy and Jodi Picoult-alikes.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was an oddball teenager who hung out in the "classical and world music" back room of the local record shop. This was the limit of what I could explore. It was a good shop, but how could that ever compare to the internet?
I've discovered so much because of the internet. I would never have known about Zhou Xuan, Ali Farka Touré, Angel Haze, Talib Kweli, Bo Ningen, and so on.
If I'm honest I'll say that I think a lot of popular music is crap. Not all of it -- but a lot of it. I tuned out early on, because finding the good songs wasn't worth listening to all the bad ones. But I'm actually more into popular music too now than ever, again because of the internet. I probably wouldn't have known about Beyonce or Janelle Monae if they came out fifteen years ago. So, like, for me it's also a golden age for pop music!
So, yeah -- if there is a lack of variety and complexity, it's because you're not looking for it. It's out there. A lack of variety is more about what gets marketed at the top tier than what gets made. Complaining about music being worse now is like complaining that literature is worse because the bestsellers rack at the grocery store only has Tom Clancy and Jodi Picoult-alikes.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:26 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, I'm glad someone upthread mentioned loudness and compression as a deterrent in listening to pop music. From listening to Switched On Pop, I think producers have started trending away from these elements of production...there seems to be a greater dynamic range in a few pop singles ("Here" by Alessia Cara; "Blank Space"; even the recent Bieber singles). Apart from my biases toward roots-based music (rock, punk, folk), I find that the production of pop music is one of the biggest deterrents to my enjoyment of it.
(Pop isn't the only place where you hear it; Bob Mould's solo albums are just as bad. I don't know if this is a side effect of his tinnitus or his love of contemporary pop, but I get tired listening to those albums.)
posted by pxe2000 at 7:27 AM on February 21, 2016
(Pop isn't the only place where you hear it; Bob Mould's solo albums are just as bad. I don't know if this is a side effect of his tinnitus or his love of contemporary pop, but I get tired listening to those albums.)
posted by pxe2000 at 7:27 AM on February 21, 2016
When I was a kid in the '70s, "old music" meant music over three or four years old. I remember digging into the The Who when I was 15 after seeing them at MSG in '79 and Who's Next seemed practically Jurassic at the time even though it was only eight years old. Now I see kids with Beatles, Ramones, Black Flag or Nirvana t-shirts on and I feel like it would be like me wearing a "Benny Goodman, Live at Carnegie Hall" t-shirt in 1980.
posted by octothorpe at 7:29 AM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:29 AM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
I get what y'all are saying and I'ma let you finish, but the best album ever, ever, ever is obviously the next Tool album.
Also, why are all the metal 14 year olds walking around with like Metallica and Iron Maiden t-shirts?
posted by signal at 7:29 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, why are all the metal 14 year olds walking around with like Metallica and Iron Maiden t-shirts?
posted by signal at 7:29 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
it is probably the case that "kids today" don't define themselves as strongly by musical taste as they might have. certainly rock is not nearly as popular. on the other hand at every suburban high school there is that one guy in the zeppelin t-shirt.
posted by vogon_poet at 7:30 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vogon_poet at 7:30 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
lly I hear that for many of them there isn't as big a mental divide between "new" and "old" music as there was when I was a kid, because everything's out there at the tap of a keyboard.
A contributing factor, I think, between the increasingly blurry line between "new & old" music is the rapid improvement in recording technology that took place from the mid-50's to the mid70's. Multiple micing techniques, stereo, multi-channel recording, noise reduction, mixing consoles with huge patch bays for outboard effects, etc. things recorded in 1968 sounded radically better than things recorded in 1948 in most cases, and since the mid-70's, the fidelity has really only incrementally improved. So the Duke Ellington/Steely Dan split, to the ear, is a major auditory shift but the Steely Dan/Lady Gaga shift is just an incremental layering on of more advanced instrumentation, and the ease/efficiency of "in the box" DAW editing.
The overall fidelity split was very major & also roughly coincided with the civil rights movement, the Vietnam war protests & the hippie movement, so I think it brought those movements into sharper focus in a way that was unique because of thier coincidence.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:32 AM on February 21, 2016 [10 favorites]
A contributing factor, I think, between the increasingly blurry line between "new & old" music is the rapid improvement in recording technology that took place from the mid-50's to the mid70's. Multiple micing techniques, stereo, multi-channel recording, noise reduction, mixing consoles with huge patch bays for outboard effects, etc. things recorded in 1968 sounded radically better than things recorded in 1948 in most cases, and since the mid-70's, the fidelity has really only incrementally improved. So the Duke Ellington/Steely Dan split, to the ear, is a major auditory shift but the Steely Dan/Lady Gaga shift is just an incremental layering on of more advanced instrumentation, and the ease/efficiency of "in the box" DAW editing.
The overall fidelity split was very major & also roughly coincided with the civil rights movement, the Vietnam war protests & the hippie movement, so I think it brought those movements into sharper focus in a way that was unique because of thier coincidence.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:32 AM on February 21, 2016 [10 favorites]
2016 has been a pretty good year for releases so far, although I'd still say that if the only release was SVIIB.
More interesting than arguing if an artist/record is good or terrible is how disposable it is. The music section on used stuff stores here (or anywhere, I'm guessing) are mostly questionable mid-90s bands someone obviously thought it was the shit back then, and now are like €2 and the owner of the rights very likely doesn't even bother to put it on a streaming service, or is even aware they own the catalog for a band someone at a time put considerable effort to promote and release a record. A lot of music is disposable this way, and trying to compare tomorrows' forgotten bands to Beatles, Dylan, Fleetwood Mac or whatever is absolutely pointless.
Take Bieber, for instance, because he seemed to be the main target of look at how modern music sucks compared to Queen* memes. He doesn't even seem as relevant now as he was just a few years ago, when the clickbait site of our national pop-rock mag seemed to be obligated to post a new story every two days. In 40 years, there's a very good chance he will be a passing joke in an HBO show about music 201x's streaming music wars.
There's plenty of good music being written and composed now. There's also some 60 years of pop/rock music to be listened almost on demand. Just be happy we're in a world anyone can from Beatles to Cindy Lauper to Wild Nothing in three clicks.
* chosen because hooooly shit, there's a reason why their best record are the best ofs
posted by lmfsilva at 7:33 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
More interesting than arguing if an artist/record is good or terrible is how disposable it is. The music section on used stuff stores here (or anywhere, I'm guessing) are mostly questionable mid-90s bands someone obviously thought it was the shit back then, and now are like €2 and the owner of the rights very likely doesn't even bother to put it on a streaming service, or is even aware they own the catalog for a band someone at a time put considerable effort to promote and release a record. A lot of music is disposable this way, and trying to compare tomorrows' forgotten bands to Beatles, Dylan, Fleetwood Mac or whatever is absolutely pointless.
Take Bieber, for instance, because he seemed to be the main target of look at how modern music sucks compared to Queen* memes. He doesn't even seem as relevant now as he was just a few years ago, when the clickbait site of our national pop-rock mag seemed to be obligated to post a new story every two days. In 40 years, there's a very good chance he will be a passing joke in an HBO show about music 201x's streaming music wars.
There's plenty of good music being written and composed now. There's also some 60 years of pop/rock music to be listened almost on demand. Just be happy we're in a world anyone can from Beatles to Cindy Lauper to Wild Nothing in three clicks.
* chosen because hooooly shit, there's a reason why their best record are the best ofs
posted by lmfsilva at 7:33 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
You know, I am picturing all of us in the old folks home or equivalent, with our youthful music being piped in like Tool or some heavy hip hop. I realized how my taste was getting "old" when the husband was switching off my car soundtrack with the phrase, to the kids, "Your mother's damn trip-hop and dub step."
posted by jadepearl at 7:36 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by jadepearl at 7:36 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
My adolescence was during the height of the mosh-pit and underground rave era. Maybe music isn't so dangerous anymore.
Yeah, no. I loved the early '00s Hydra Head/Botch/Dillinger scene too, but today we've got Ghostlimb, KWC, KEN Mode...there's still plenty of dangerous shit out there.
Look, I don't care how you want to justify the music of your day being better/more influential/more meaningful, you're just wrong. Music has always been meaningful to a large percentage of humanity, and it will remain that way. There has always been great music, there will always be great music. Yes, you'll probably keep getting that nostalgic thrill from the records you heard when you were 13. I do too. That signifies more about your brain chemistry in adolescence than any sort of objective measure of quality.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:37 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, no. I loved the early '00s Hydra Head/Botch/Dillinger scene too, but today we've got Ghostlimb, KWC, KEN Mode...there's still plenty of dangerous shit out there.
Look, I don't care how you want to justify the music of your day being better/more influential/more meaningful, you're just wrong. Music has always been meaningful to a large percentage of humanity, and it will remain that way. There has always been great music, there will always be great music. Yes, you'll probably keep getting that nostalgic thrill from the records you heard when you were 13. I do too. That signifies more about your brain chemistry in adolescence than any sort of objective measure of quality.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:37 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've discovered so much because of the internet. I would never have known about Zhou Xuan, Ali Farka Touré, Angel Haze, Talib Kweli, Bo Ningen, and so on.
I had a moment listening to the first Santana album on Friday night , wondering how in the hell a bunch of teenagers in the Mission in 1967 or 68 got ahold of a Baba Olatunji record.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had a moment listening to the first Santana album on Friday night , wondering how in the hell a bunch of teenagers in the Mission in 1967 or 68 got ahold of a Baba Olatunji record.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:39 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I seem to recall Ethan Hawke (either himself, or one of the characters he played) saying that one of the easiest ways to feel young is to listen to the music the kids are listening to. And trying to understand why they like it.
And he's absolutely right. The music might not give you the same feelings you had when spinning up a record for the first time as a kid, or (in my case) popping your first cassette into the player. But it can definitely have a positive, age-defying impact on you.
(And here I'll cite Paul Krugman as a great example of this effect).
posted by sutt at 7:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
And he's absolutely right. The music might not give you the same feelings you had when spinning up a record for the first time as a kid, or (in my case) popping your first cassette into the player. But it can definitely have a positive, age-defying impact on you.
(And here I'll cite Paul Krugman as a great example of this effect).
posted by sutt at 7:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
The second that guy opens his mouth, you know he’s for real
I'd very much like for that to stop, please. There is no more or no less authentic music. If you like it, good. Consider it possible, however, that others may not.
posted by scruss at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd very much like for that to stop, please. There is no more or no less authentic music. If you like it, good. Consider it possible, however, that others may not.
posted by scruss at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
defining e.g. notes on a staff as the "core" and everything else as "surface"
I didn't mean to do that because I think the concepts like 'tonality', 'key centre' or 'cadence' have a meaning beyond notes on the staff... I don't really disagree with your point, but I do think that musical concepts such as 'tonal centre' are just as relevant to analysing pop styles as any other type of music - perhaps more so, since now we have a situation where if you strip out the production effects, pop and EDM styles are often more tonally conservative than either modern classical or modern jazz styles.
I was prompted to say this because of the linked study that tried to show that 'complexity' had declined in pop since the 60s (or something like that), which is probably a doomed mission. But I think they may have a point in terms of pop/rock's current ability or willingness to experiment with form.
posted by colie at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2016
I didn't mean to do that because I think the concepts like 'tonality', 'key centre' or 'cadence' have a meaning beyond notes on the staff... I don't really disagree with your point, but I do think that musical concepts such as 'tonal centre' are just as relevant to analysing pop styles as any other type of music - perhaps more so, since now we have a situation where if you strip out the production effects, pop and EDM styles are often more tonally conservative than either modern classical or modern jazz styles.
I was prompted to say this because of the linked study that tried to show that 'complexity' had declined in pop since the 60s (or something like that), which is probably a doomed mission. But I think they may have a point in terms of pop/rock's current ability or willingness to experiment with form.
posted by colie at 7:42 AM on February 21, 2016
→ What's a 78?
a 56 kbit Xing!-encoded file recorded through all of your socks at once
posted by scruss at 7:48 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
a 56 kbit Xing!-encoded file recorded through all of your socks at once
posted by scruss at 7:48 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Where did this expectation that adults are supposed to participate in youth culture come from? When I was a teenager, it was very important to me that my taste in music, clothes, culture should be *different* from my parents, and I would have found much overlap very offputting.
This seems to extend way beyond music... Now, as a 36 year old woman, too much of the clothing marketed towards me takes its cues from teenage style (I am a grown woman, I am not wearing jeans with rhinestones all over the butt. and I even *like* rhinestones. But no.) I get this bizarre catalog in the mail that is full of what looks like stuff from Forever 21, but all come with mom-jean tummy panels. WTF?
Then the whole thing about the sudden rise of reading YA books among adults. I didn't enjoy being a teenager when I was one, why would I want to read about it? If one more person recommends another book about teenage death contests to me, I will be really done. I read The Long Walk, I read The Hunger Games, I've had my fill, thank you very much.
I know I am sounding all get-off-my-lawn, but I don't feel obligated to like every new round of teen culture. I can like what I like, and I don't feel any need to stop liking what I already like just because it's "old"
posted by antimony at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
This seems to extend way beyond music... Now, as a 36 year old woman, too much of the clothing marketed towards me takes its cues from teenage style (I am a grown woman, I am not wearing jeans with rhinestones all over the butt. and I even *like* rhinestones. But no.) I get this bizarre catalog in the mail that is full of what looks like stuff from Forever 21, but all come with mom-jean tummy panels. WTF?
Then the whole thing about the sudden rise of reading YA books among adults. I didn't enjoy being a teenager when I was one, why would I want to read about it? If one more person recommends another book about teenage death contests to me, I will be really done. I read The Long Walk, I read The Hunger Games, I've had my fill, thank you very much.
I know I am sounding all get-off-my-lawn, but I don't feel obligated to like every new round of teen culture. I can like what I like, and I don't feel any need to stop liking what I already like just because it's "old"
posted by antimony at 7:52 AM on February 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
There are bullies who go round making people listen to the Beatles and Dylan?
I still remember, with great annoyance, the communal acid trip that was ruined for teenage me - RUINED - when a dude insisted on playing Dylan. Dylan might be fine in other settings, but god-damn, when my brainspace is being altered, I want textured, layered aural complexity, not nasal acoustic folksy twang.
I ended up in a cocoon of down comforters listening to the Preservation Hall Jazz Band because of a Dylan-playing bully. When I emerged some unknowable time later, they were listening to the Beatles... I couldn't believe it. We could be listening to ANYTHING you guys, ugh, stop being your dad's dream of an acid trip.
posted by palindromic at 8:01 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
I still remember, with great annoyance, the communal acid trip that was ruined for teenage me - RUINED - when a dude insisted on playing Dylan. Dylan might be fine in other settings, but god-damn, when my brainspace is being altered, I want textured, layered aural complexity, not nasal acoustic folksy twang.
I ended up in a cocoon of down comforters listening to the Preservation Hall Jazz Band because of a Dylan-playing bully. When I emerged some unknowable time later, they were listening to the Beatles... I couldn't believe it. We could be listening to ANYTHING you guys, ugh, stop being your dad's dream of an acid trip.
posted by palindromic at 8:01 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
What I liked at a period of my life when I was young, vibrant, alive, filled with juices was TOPS. Then I aged and all that I am now told is great seems an affront to my memory. Things change. i did not. Why do I seldom hear Al Jolson, Glenn Miller, Tiny Tim these days? ps: I did dump my IBM Selectric for a Mac.
posted by Postroad at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by Postroad at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2016
Wait. Didn't music peak in 1824? I thought for sure it peaked in 1824.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 8:16 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 8:16 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I keep trying to come up with a coherent comment based on this thread, but everything ultimately devolves into imaginary Verso book titles and the kind of articles you can imagine being rejected by The Journal of Popular Culture:
There Is No Alternative: The Rise of Neoliberal Pop and the Death of Rock & Roll.
"Constructing Elite Whiteness through the Performative Disavowal of Non-Elite White Culture: Musical Choice and the New Culture Wars."
"'No Drake, No Pitbull?': Musical Memory in Mister Robot and the Fall of the American Middle Class."
Poptimism and Market Power.
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:20 AM on February 21, 2016 [13 favorites]
There Is No Alternative: The Rise of Neoliberal Pop and the Death of Rock & Roll.
"Constructing Elite Whiteness through the Performative Disavowal of Non-Elite White Culture: Musical Choice and the New Culture Wars."
"'No Drake, No Pitbull?': Musical Memory in Mister Robot and the Fall of the American Middle Class."
Poptimism and Market Power.
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:20 AM on February 21, 2016 [13 favorites]
If new pop is as good as old pop, why does new pop have to borrow/steal so many samples from old pop?
posted by Beholder at 8:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Beholder at 8:21 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I couldn't agree more with the premise—it's been amusing, if a little sad, to watch my own generation's musical attitudes slowly fossilize. Everyone believes that real music (coincidentally) died the moment they turned 30. Everyone is wrong.
But I don't think this is a failure of music marketing. I don't look to marketers to tell me what music to be interested in. I spend time exploring Bandcamp and SoundCloud and Spotify and YouTube; I read articles; I exchange recommendations with friends. That's because I (still) value music enough to put in the work that's necessary to find the stuff that's meaningful to me. I don't expect a music marketer to plop the answers in front of me. If that's the approach you're taking, then of course you're going to think that today's music is tepid, manufactured crap.
Many people my age, I think, have made a decision (conscious or not) to prioritize things other than music—career, partners, children, etc. Hunting for new sounds takes time, which not everyone can spare.
Or they simply aren't interested in putting in the work to understand new music. They just want something that's going to provide a rewarding experience without a lot of challenge or risk—and for many people, that's the music of their halcyon youth. (It certainly is for me, at times.)
And both of those things are fine—I'm not criticizing those choices. But if those are the choices you've made, then you don't get to criticize the state of music, because you don't know what you're talking about.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:24 AM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
But I don't think this is a failure of music marketing. I don't look to marketers to tell me what music to be interested in. I spend time exploring Bandcamp and SoundCloud and Spotify and YouTube; I read articles; I exchange recommendations with friends. That's because I (still) value music enough to put in the work that's necessary to find the stuff that's meaningful to me. I don't expect a music marketer to plop the answers in front of me. If that's the approach you're taking, then of course you're going to think that today's music is tepid, manufactured crap.
Many people my age, I think, have made a decision (conscious or not) to prioritize things other than music—career, partners, children, etc. Hunting for new sounds takes time, which not everyone can spare.
Or they simply aren't interested in putting in the work to understand new music. They just want something that's going to provide a rewarding experience without a lot of challenge or risk—and for many people, that's the music of their halcyon youth. (It certainly is for me, at times.)
And both of those things are fine—I'm not criticizing those choices. But if those are the choices you've made, then you don't get to criticize the state of music, because you don't know what you're talking about.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:24 AM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
the kind of articles you can imagine being rejected by The Journal of Popular Culture
The journal you are looking for may be Music Theory Online. It's actually very good.
Hipster Harmony: The Hybrid Syntax of Seventh Chords in Post-Millennial Rock.
posted by colie at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
The journal you are looking for may be Music Theory Online. It's actually very good.
Hipster Harmony: The Hybrid Syntax of Seventh Chords in Post-Millennial Rock.
posted by colie at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
So here's the thing. I am 100% sure that there is excellent music being produced today that is just as great as the stuff that I listened to when I was 16. But I'm busier now than I was when I was 16, and I don't necessarily want to spend my time finding it. I didn't just turn on the radio and hear great music when I was 16: I expended a huge amount of effort making and trading mix tapes, seeking out bands that I read about in zines, going to shows, and otherwise working to find music that appealed to me. I'm not telling anyone to get off my lawn. I'm just saying that now that I have a lawn, I have to mow and weed it and don't have as much time for other hobbies.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:45 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:45 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
I do think one thing that's different is that there used to be live music everywhere. The clubs where people would line up on Fridays had live bands. Young players could make a living. Actually be a musician as a job.
I don't think that ever negated that law where 90% of pop culture is crap, but dammit! it was live crap!
The sixties is before me but one thing about that era is that the entire industry at that time was young. Performers, producers, business people were all young. I don't know if THAT negated 90% law, but it was different.
That Dr.Whozits guy who's fucking over Kesha right now is fortysomething. An old man with 4 hits in the top ten. And that Swedish fortysomething guy wrote the other six. That's different.
Better? Worse? I don't really care, I'm just saying.
posted by Trochanter at 8:46 AM on February 21, 2016
I don't think that ever negated that law where 90% of pop culture is crap, but dammit! it was live crap!
The sixties is before me but one thing about that era is that the entire industry at that time was young. Performers, producers, business people were all young. I don't know if THAT negated 90% law, but it was different.
That Dr.Whozits guy who's fucking over Kesha right now is fortysomething. An old man with 4 hits in the top ten. And that Swedish fortysomething guy wrote the other six. That's different.
Better? Worse? I don't really care, I'm just saying.
posted by Trochanter at 8:46 AM on February 21, 2016
Also, I listen to way more current pop now than I did when I was 16, which is also probably a function of laziness/ lack of time to find music. It may also be that current pop is better than radio pop was when I was a teenager.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:46 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:46 AM on February 21, 2016
So, anyone want to place a bet on a contemporary artist they think more of our grandkids will listen to than the Beatles?
posted by straight at 8:49 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 8:49 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know. But I do know that if you'd told people my age in 1966 that in fifty years people would still be listening to the Beatles, they'd probably have laughed at you.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:51 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:51 AM on February 21, 2016
I can certainly list groups that were contemporaries of The Beatles that might have seemed at the time like they were going to be well-remembered but at this point are widely forgotten. Off the top of my head, The Association and It's A Beautiful Day. I could probably name 5 more if I took some time to think about it.
posted by hippybear at 8:53 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by hippybear at 8:53 AM on February 21, 2016
So, anyone want to place a bet on a contemporary artist they think more of our grandkids will listen to than the Beatles?
This actually will be the acid test, won't it? Maybe not grandkids but great or great-great grandkids. Theoretically, every tune ever recorded will be available to them at any time. What buttons will they push on the Infinite Jukebox?
posted by Chitownfats at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
This actually will be the acid test, won't it? Maybe not grandkids but great or great-great grandkids. Theoretically, every tune ever recorded will be available to them at any time. What buttons will they push on the Infinite Jukebox?
posted by Chitownfats at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Great article. I have a huge pet peeve for the kids these days/back in my day/back when things were simpler lines of thought. To me, they seem inherently conservative (and all that entails) as well as dismissive to people or schools of thought that fall outside of very narrow parameters. Not to mention that they're often inaccurate, in only the way that viewing the past through rose-colored glasses can be.
Just taking a random look now at a few random lists of the best classic rock artists, they go (roughly) like this: The Beatles, Dylan, The Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, The Who, Elvis, Queen, The Doors, Pink Floyd, etc. See a pattern? This list does give a number of black male singers and Aretha Franklin manages to make the top 10, but then we have to go all the way to 36 before we hit another woman with Madonna, and the late 40s give us Janis Joplin and Patti Smith. I know the lack of representation isn't because women are less talented, because I think it's pretty widely acknowledged now that Nina Simone (for example) is one of our all-time great artists. But she only came to be viewed that way relatively recently.
Decades ago, music was much more centralized on a wide scale so unless you were an artist who somehow managed to gain a foothold to be funneled through that system, it was hard to gain widespread popularity. Technology has democratized music and while it may be even harder now to get a onto the path to real superstardom a la Taylor Swift, artists are finding other means to get their music out there and fans are finding multiple avenues through which they can find things that speak to them and are meaningful to them. That's a great thing and I think that dismissing that in whatever kids these days argument anyone wants to throw out is just a blatant refusal to even try to understand how culture and society has changed and how people are now finding ways to find and interact with the things that move them.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:59 AM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Just taking a random look now at a few random lists of the best classic rock artists, they go (roughly) like this: The Beatles, Dylan, The Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, The Who, Elvis, Queen, The Doors, Pink Floyd, etc. See a pattern? This list does give a number of black male singers and Aretha Franklin manages to make the top 10, but then we have to go all the way to 36 before we hit another woman with Madonna, and the late 40s give us Janis Joplin and Patti Smith. I know the lack of representation isn't because women are less talented, because I think it's pretty widely acknowledged now that Nina Simone (for example) is one of our all-time great artists. But she only came to be viewed that way relatively recently.
Decades ago, music was much more centralized on a wide scale so unless you were an artist who somehow managed to gain a foothold to be funneled through that system, it was hard to gain widespread popularity. Technology has democratized music and while it may be even harder now to get a onto the path to real superstardom a la Taylor Swift, artists are finding other means to get their music out there and fans are finding multiple avenues through which they can find things that speak to them and are meaningful to them. That's a great thing and I think that dismissing that in whatever kids these days argument anyone wants to throw out is just a blatant refusal to even try to understand how culture and society has changed and how people are now finding ways to find and interact with the things that move them.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:59 AM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
So here's the thing. I am 100% sure that there is excellent music being produced today that is just as great as the stuff that I listened to when I was 16. But I'm busier now than I was when I was 16, and I don't necessarily want to spend my time finding it.
Spotify's "Discover Weekly" will give you an uncannily good ultra-personalized mixtape of like 30 songs every Monday. All machine-generated, so there's no payola and it doesn't care how obscure its recommendations are.
posted by vogon_poet at 9:08 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Spotify's "Discover Weekly" will give you an uncannily good ultra-personalized mixtape of like 30 songs every Monday. All machine-generated, so there's no payola and it doesn't care how obscure its recommendations are.
posted by vogon_poet at 9:08 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
In the 60s and 70s most music was crap. We just remember the good stuff.
Most music today is crap and won't be remembered. But some will.
As an old guy I find I most enjoy acoustic music in small venues. I don't like stadiums. Give me Berkeley's Freight and Salvage. I love that place. Give me the delightful Sierra Hull or Mouths of Babes (I'll be seeing both soon.) What's this "stop listening to music when you get old" stuff?
I don't think I'm supposed to like HipHop or autotune (and I don't) any more than I expected my parents to enjoy the bombast of Blue Cheer.
posted by cccorlew at 9:10 AM on February 21, 2016
Most music today is crap and won't be remembered. But some will.
As an old guy I find I most enjoy acoustic music in small venues. I don't like stadiums. Give me Berkeley's Freight and Salvage. I love that place. Give me the delightful Sierra Hull or Mouths of Babes (I'll be seeing both soon.) What's this "stop listening to music when you get old" stuff?
I don't think I'm supposed to like HipHop or autotune (and I don't) any more than I expected my parents to enjoy the bombast of Blue Cheer.
posted by cccorlew at 9:10 AM on February 21, 2016
I don't know. But I do know that if you'd told people my age in 1966 that in fifty years people would still be listening to the Beatles, they'd probably have laughed at you.
I was just a kid, but I don't think anyone would have been surprised at the Beatles' legacy after Sgt. Pepper. That was in 67, and they had already turned pop on it's head with Revolver. Call me old and outdated, but nothing has bettered Eleanor Rigby in the 50+ years it's been out.
But even if you removed the Beatles and Stones from the discussion, Pop has unquestionably been on a downward slide since the early 80s. From that point onward, it's been repeating the past in one form or the other. Some of it very underrated (Smithereens). Some of it very overrated (Oasis, Stokes), but it's undeniable that music has been going in circles for at least 30 years.
posted by Beholder at 9:12 AM on February 21, 2016
I was just a kid, but I don't think anyone would have been surprised at the Beatles' legacy after Sgt. Pepper. That was in 67, and they had already turned pop on it's head with Revolver. Call me old and outdated, but nothing has bettered Eleanor Rigby in the 50+ years it's been out.
But even if you removed the Beatles and Stones from the discussion, Pop has unquestionably been on a downward slide since the early 80s. From that point onward, it's been repeating the past in one form or the other. Some of it very underrated (Smithereens). Some of it very overrated (Oasis, Stokes), but it's undeniable that music has been going in circles for at least 30 years.
posted by Beholder at 9:12 AM on February 21, 2016
Seconding Spotify's "Discover Weekly". I ignored it for the longest time, since those kinds of auto-generated playlists are usually laughably bad. But I tried it one day for kicks, and I was shocked by how good its algorithm is. I end up starring a few tracks every week. It understands really well what I like, and kinda uses that as a baseline—but it throws me a good number of gentle curves that I might not think to explore on my own. Really helps to expand my musical universe.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Then the whole thing about the sudden rise of reading YA books among adults.I think this observation ties in to some extent with some of the points in this discussion. I've noticed that the majority of the adult readership of YA novels is women, and that YA novels depict an idealized manic-pixie-dream-boy performance of masculinity. This dovetails with an era of mass shootings at abortion clinics and sorority houses, of GamerGate, of revenge porn and MRAs and 4chan. Since men with entitlement complexes and a toxic relationship with masculinity have greater access to the media and a more prominent soapbox for their opinions, it makes sense that many women would turn to idealized male characters.
Where did this expectation that adults are supposed to participate in youth culture come from?Since we in the thread are working from the assumption that "pop music" automatically = "youth culture" (and if your comment isn't making this point, I apologize in advance), I'm drawn to some pop music because it engages with issues in contemporary culture in a way that my default music didn't and doesn't. Artists like Kendrick Lamar and Beyoncé are writing and performing about Black Lives Matter and related issues in a way that's more immediate than hashtagged names and statistics. This isn't to say that only mainstream pop is engaging with these issues, but listening to these artists helps put them into perspective.
Poptimism is flawed; while pop, R&B, and rap are more racially diverse than indie and what remains of rock, pop has a misogyny problem both in the business and (arguably) the product. (To an extent this is true of rock as well, even the rock I grew up with and love. If twelve-year-old me could reject, say, Skid Row because of shenanigans like this, sixteen-year-old me had to contend with the NSFW sleeve for The Blasting Concept.) However, because pop is more diverse and more underrated than indie and pop, it's important for me to at least consider pop music, why certain acts are popular, and what that says for American culture and society on the whole.
posted by pxe2000 at 9:14 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
In the 60s and 70s most music was crap.
This is the kind of comment that I find to be the *least* effective argument in contrasting this undying inter-generational music war. Yes, there was crap in the 60's and 70's, but WE NEVER HEARD IT. We heard what filtered through, what fought its way up, what was not to be denied.
Now, I may not have liked overly-much half or greater of that (looking at you, Court of the Crimson King, and I see you hiding there, Roundabout) but I would never characterize it as "crap".
posted by Chitownfats at 9:21 AM on February 21, 2016
This is the kind of comment that I find to be the *least* effective argument in contrasting this undying inter-generational music war. Yes, there was crap in the 60's and 70's, but WE NEVER HEARD IT. We heard what filtered through, what fought its way up, what was not to be denied.
Now, I may not have liked overly-much half or greater of that (looking at you, Court of the Crimson King, and I see you hiding there, Roundabout) but I would never characterize it as "crap".
posted by Chitownfats at 9:21 AM on February 21, 2016
See a pattern?
I also see that same pattern recapitulating itself as the music of the early 90s begins its transition to classic rock. You can hear Nirvana, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots and so on making their way to classic rock stations, but what happened to Hole? Say what you will about Courtney Love, but that band had several hits: 'Violet,' 'Miss World,' 'Doll Parts,' 'Malibu'... The Breeders? No Doubt? Garbage? Portishead? Where are PJ Harvey and Tori Amos? Alanis Morrisette is relegated to soft rock/adult alternative stations, but 'You Oughta Know' was part of 90s rock radio, just as much as, say, Bush was.
Considering only bands that had substantial radio and MTV airtime, there is a noticeable lack of female-fronted bands from that era who have made it to classic rock stations in my area compared to middling male bands. I suspect that Eminem and The Beastie Boys alone of all hip hop might make it to classic rock status - I wonder why that might be.
posted by palindromic at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2016 [13 favorites]
I also see that same pattern recapitulating itself as the music of the early 90s begins its transition to classic rock. You can hear Nirvana, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam, Stone Temple Pilots and so on making their way to classic rock stations, but what happened to Hole? Say what you will about Courtney Love, but that band had several hits: 'Violet,' 'Miss World,' 'Doll Parts,' 'Malibu'... The Breeders? No Doubt? Garbage? Portishead? Where are PJ Harvey and Tori Amos? Alanis Morrisette is relegated to soft rock/adult alternative stations, but 'You Oughta Know' was part of 90s rock radio, just as much as, say, Bush was.
Considering only bands that had substantial radio and MTV airtime, there is a noticeable lack of female-fronted bands from that era who have made it to classic rock stations in my area compared to middling male bands. I suspect that Eminem and The Beastie Boys alone of all hip hop might make it to classic rock status - I wonder why that might be.
posted by palindromic at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2016 [13 favorites]
Alanis Morrisette is relegated to soft rock/adult alternative stations
This is lunacy.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2016
This is lunacy.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2016
But I do know that if you'd told people my age in 1966 that in fifty years people would still be listening to the Beatles, they'd probably have laughed at you.
maybe not - i recall that sept 65 was the turning point when it came to the beatles and the older generation's view of them - before, it was "they're just a fad, blah blah blah"
after "yesterday" became a hit single, it became impossible to deny their talent and staying power - that was a song that took the great american songbook on its own terms and matched it - it was clearly as good as anything berlin, gershwin, porter, etc etc had come up wtih, and a lot of older people knew it
i do know that my dad quit saying they were a fad after that song came out
posted by pyramid termite at 9:28 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
maybe not - i recall that sept 65 was the turning point when it came to the beatles and the older generation's view of them - before, it was "they're just a fad, blah blah blah"
after "yesterday" became a hit single, it became impossible to deny their talent and staying power - that was a song that took the great american songbook on its own terms and matched it - it was clearly as good as anything berlin, gershwin, porter, etc etc had come up wtih, and a lot of older people knew it
i do know that my dad quit saying they were a fad after that song came out
posted by pyramid termite at 9:28 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are a few different things to address here, but I'd like to start with the idea that the Beatles are somehow emblematic of the inability of the classic rock industry to move forward. I grew up listening to classic rock stations, and with few exceptions, the Beatles were largely absent from them. (I think they may have played more songs by Paul McCartney and Wings than by Paul's previous band.) They played plenty by the Beatles' contemporaries, including those bands' sixties hits: the Who, the Stones, the Kinks, etc. But, even then (the late seventies and early eighties), the Beatles were starting to be talked about, when they were even mentioned, as somehow deeply uncool, and I think that it's because of their early years, when Beatlemania hit mid-sixties America and Britain like a freight train, that a certain self-important type of critic (that didn't exist before the Beatles) decided that no group that was adored by so many teenage girls could possibly be good, ever. That's the heart of anti-Beatle snobbery. You can argue that there were more innovative songwriters or better musicians, and you'd be right, but the phenomenon of extremely popular musicians challenging their own limits, and those of their listeners, in the way that the Beatles did, was utterly unprecedented at the time; imagine Elvis putting out a concept album, or something as resolutely uncommercial as "Revolution #9". I think it just sort of blew the critics' minds that the same guys who were getting pelted by jelly beans at Shea Stadium a few years earlier were putting this stuff out, and they doubled down on the snobbery.
Therefore, you still end up with crap like this, which I gave up on fairly early into it, because there's something deeply wrong or stupid in just about every paragraph. (Ray Davies is a fine songwriter, but the idea that he was better than either McCartney or Lennon at their sixties height is just ludicrous. IMNSHO.) And you end up with a classic rock establishment that studiously ignores them, which has paradoxically resulted in their being rediscovered periodically, and enjoyed to a degree that many of their peers, whose music is regarded with the contempt of familiarity, generally isn't. (Cue people telling me that I'm wrong because they hear the Beatles on classic rock stations all the time; since I usually listen to public radio or my own music collection, you could be right. I'm going off memories of classic rock radio that themselves are decades old.)
As far as music in general goes, yeah, people should be willing to try new things, that's a fine ideal, but I really don't have time for scolds who try to convince me that it's somehow my duty to subordinate my enjoyment of music to some abstract principle that new=good. My personal theory is that the reason that you tend to prefer the music of your adolescent and young adult years is that that's when your hormones were running high, and you simply have much stronger emotional memories connected with those songs. That's it. I don't begrudge any kid having a deep emotional connection to Taylor Swift rather than David Bowie, and I don't feel the need to trot out some tedious musicological mishmash that purports to "prove" that Heroes is better than 1989. (I'm pretty sure that it is, I just don't feel the need.) I have, on occasion, said in the past that I'm not angry at people who won't acknowledge the genius of Bruce Springsteen (at least in the trilogy of Born to Run, Darkness on the Edge of Town, and The River, which I have unironically referred to as the Holy Trinity) so much as I feel sorry for them, but srsly, folks, I mostly feel sorry for two classes of people: those who don't have something similar in their music collection--something that they can put on while they're driving alone at night that makes them weep while they're listening to it--and those who feel compelled to attempt to police the tastes of others.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:31 AM on February 21, 2016
Therefore, you still end up with crap like this, which I gave up on fairly early into it, because there's something deeply wrong or stupid in just about every paragraph. (Ray Davies is a fine songwriter, but the idea that he was better than either McCartney or Lennon at their sixties height is just ludicrous. IMNSHO.) And you end up with a classic rock establishment that studiously ignores them, which has paradoxically resulted in their being rediscovered periodically, and enjoyed to a degree that many of their peers, whose music is regarded with the contempt of familiarity, generally isn't. (Cue people telling me that I'm wrong because they hear the Beatles on classic rock stations all the time; since I usually listen to public radio or my own music collection, you could be right. I'm going off memories of classic rock radio that themselves are decades old.)
As far as music in general goes, yeah, people should be willing to try new things, that's a fine ideal, but I really don't have time for scolds who try to convince me that it's somehow my duty to subordinate my enjoyment of music to some abstract principle that new=good. My personal theory is that the reason that you tend to prefer the music of your adolescent and young adult years is that that's when your hormones were running high, and you simply have much stronger emotional memories connected with those songs. That's it. I don't begrudge any kid having a deep emotional connection to Taylor Swift rather than David Bowie, and I don't feel the need to trot out some tedious musicological mishmash that purports to "prove" that Heroes is better than 1989. (I'm pretty sure that it is, I just don't feel the need.) I have, on occasion, said in the past that I'm not angry at people who won't acknowledge the genius of Bruce Springsteen (at least in the trilogy of Born to Run, Darkness on the Edge of Town, and The River, which I have unironically referred to as the Holy Trinity) so much as I feel sorry for them, but srsly, folks, I mostly feel sorry for two classes of people: those who don't have something similar in their music collection--something that they can put on while they're driving alone at night that makes them weep while they're listening to it--and those who feel compelled to attempt to police the tastes of others.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:31 AM on February 21, 2016
Yes, there was crap in the 60's and 70's, but WE NEVER HEARD IT.
then you weren't listening to top 40 radio - *cues bobby goldsboro's "honey"*
posted by pyramid termite at 9:31 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
then you weren't listening to top 40 radio - *cues bobby goldsboro's "honey"*
posted by pyramid termite at 9:31 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yes, there was crap in the 60's and 70's, but WE NEVER HEARD IT. We heard what filtered through, what fought its way up, what was not to be denied.
Actually, that's not true. Much of the "crap" back then was heard, because radio wasn't only playing top 10 hits, it was selecting freely out of the hot 100, which certainly continues today (although mostly it seems to be only the top 20 that gets airplay on a lot of pop stations I encounter these days.)
Let's take a look at the Billboard Year-end Hot 100 for 1967 (this is the year-end chart, not the weekly charts)... You will recognize a lot of the bands (maybe, but also maybe not), but you won't know many of the songs. This is the year Sgt Peppers came out, and the Beatles only have two songs in this chart. Pick any other year from, let's say 1965 to 1975.. you'll be surprised at how little of what is on that chart is actually remembered today.
I've thought for a long time that a great set of radio stations would be, alongside the typical "classic rock" station or whatever, would be a "top 50-20" station, that only played songs that just hovered under the top of the charts but were also enough of a hit in their own right. Listening to such a station would be full of moments of "oh, holy crap! I forgot about this song!", and probably a lot of enjoyment as old gems are reintroduced to one's listening repertoire.
posted by hippybear at 9:34 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Actually, that's not true. Much of the "crap" back then was heard, because radio wasn't only playing top 10 hits, it was selecting freely out of the hot 100, which certainly continues today (although mostly it seems to be only the top 20 that gets airplay on a lot of pop stations I encounter these days.)
Let's take a look at the Billboard Year-end Hot 100 for 1967 (this is the year-end chart, not the weekly charts)... You will recognize a lot of the bands (maybe, but also maybe not), but you won't know many of the songs. This is the year Sgt Peppers came out, and the Beatles only have two songs in this chart. Pick any other year from, let's say 1965 to 1975.. you'll be surprised at how little of what is on that chart is actually remembered today.
I've thought for a long time that a great set of radio stations would be, alongside the typical "classic rock" station or whatever, would be a "top 50-20" station, that only played songs that just hovered under the top of the charts but were also enough of a hit in their own right. Listening to such a station would be full of moments of "oh, holy crap! I forgot about this song!", and probably a lot of enjoyment as old gems are reintroduced to one's listening repertoire.
posted by hippybear at 9:34 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
"then you weren't listening to top 40 radio - *cues bobby goldsboro's "honey"*"
I was waiting for somebody to call me on that (actually I had "Yummy Yummy" in mind.)
Imagine, if you dare, all the cloying, maudlin even worse pop horrors that were waiting patiently to assault your eardrums that couldn't, despite their collective strength, push aside "Honey". And be grateful.
posted by Chitownfats at 9:37 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was waiting for somebody to call me on that (actually I had "Yummy Yummy" in mind.)
Imagine, if you dare, all the cloying, maudlin even worse pop horrors that were waiting patiently to assault your eardrums that couldn't, despite their collective strength, push aside "Honey". And be grateful.
posted by Chitownfats at 9:37 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
it's undeniable that music has been going in circles for at least 30 years.
Oh, it's very deniable. You may just not be looking in the right places. And it's not as though the output of the Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin sprang from their temples as Athena, fully formed from their own genius.
Look, the music of your youth might move you on a deeper emotional level than anything since. But don't pretend that is an objective truth, and that all that has come since is merely a lukewarm ripoff of the mighty composers of the 60s and 70s. Perhaps what you are finding is merely pandering to your nostalgia, and if you did a little digging you might discover something amazing.
Discarding the present and future is easily as short-sighted as discarding the past.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:38 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh, it's very deniable. You may just not be looking in the right places. And it's not as though the output of the Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin sprang from their temples as Athena, fully formed from their own genius.
Look, the music of your youth might move you on a deeper emotional level than anything since. But don't pretend that is an objective truth, and that all that has come since is merely a lukewarm ripoff of the mighty composers of the 60s and 70s. Perhaps what you are finding is merely pandering to your nostalgia, and if you did a little digging you might discover something amazing.
Discarding the present and future is easily as short-sighted as discarding the past.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:38 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
"what is on that chart is actually remembered today."
That might mean a lot of things, but I dispute that "forgotten" equates to "crap".
posted by Chitownfats at 9:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
That might mean a lot of things, but I dispute that "forgotten" equates to "crap".
posted by Chitownfats at 9:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
The other day I was reading a book about the Encyclopedia Britannica. The book mentioned that in the 1941 edition, the entry for Herman Melville was just a few sentences long. It wasn't until the post-WW2 era that Moby-Dick was elevated to its present lofty position in the American literary canon. And I thought: Huh. I wonder how often that happens? Who's next? I've watched over the course of my life as Hemingway has slid lower and lower in critical esteem, and writers whom I would never have anticipated have been elevated (Lovecraft, FFS). I imagine similar forces are at work in popular music. The Stooges sold maybe 16 copies of Fun House when it was new, now it's widely acknowledged as one of the best rock albums ever. So who's gonna be the next Beatles? I dunno. And neither does anyone else. The Boomers, whose stranglehold on popular culture is finally being pried from their arthritic entitled fingers by the combined efforts of younger generations who really don't give a good goddamn about Eleanor Rigby, artificially extended rock-as-popular-music for twenty years by selfishly demanding that Everything Be About Them then refusing to just fucking die. But now they're shuffling off, so we'll see.
And I think there's a distinction between the bands that will make it into the canon and the bands people will actually still be listening to. Right now my upstairs neighbor's sister is visiting with her young daughter. They're dancing in the living room. Thump thump thump. I think it's Operation Ivy. Plus ça change, etc.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
And I think there's a distinction between the bands that will make it into the canon and the bands people will actually still be listening to. Right now my upstairs neighbor's sister is visiting with her young daughter. They're dancing in the living room. Thump thump thump. I think it's Operation Ivy. Plus ça change, etc.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:40 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Therefore, you still end up with crap like this,
That anti-Beatles article is beyond dreadful. Anti-Beatles articles written in the 60s, of course, looked a bit like anti-pop articles look today:
"Both TV channels now run weekly programmes in which popular records are played to teenagers and judged. While the music is performed, the cameras linger savagely over the faces of the audience. What a bottomless chasm of vacuity they reveal! The huge faces, bloated with cheap confectionery and smeared with chain-store makeup, the open, sagging mouths and glazed eyes, the broken stiletto heels: here is a generation enslaved by a commercial machine. Behind this image of “youth”, there are, evidently, some shrewd older folk at work."
posted by colie at 9:42 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
That anti-Beatles article is beyond dreadful. Anti-Beatles articles written in the 60s, of course, looked a bit like anti-pop articles look today:
"Both TV channels now run weekly programmes in which popular records are played to teenagers and judged. While the music is performed, the cameras linger savagely over the faces of the audience. What a bottomless chasm of vacuity they reveal! The huge faces, bloated with cheap confectionery and smeared with chain-store makeup, the open, sagging mouths and glazed eyes, the broken stiletto heels: here is a generation enslaved by a commercial machine. Behind this image of “youth”, there are, evidently, some shrewd older folk at work."
posted by colie at 9:42 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah but does your old music even djent?
(I just learned this word yesterday)
posted by damo at 9:44 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
(I just learned this word yesterday)
posted by damo at 9:44 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
their arthritic entitled fingers by the combined efforts of younger generations who really don't give a good goddamn about Eleanor Rigby, artificially extended rock-as-popular-music for twenty years by selfishly demanding that Everything Be About Them then refusing to just fucking die. But now they're shuffling off, so we'll see.
Sounds like someone needs big ol' hug.
posted by Chitownfats at 9:46 AM on February 21, 2016
Sounds like someone needs big ol' hug.
posted by Chitownfats at 9:46 AM on February 21, 2016
Flying Lotus.
posted by chaz at 9:46 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by chaz at 9:46 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
You will recognize a lot of the bands (maybe, but also maybe not), but you won't know many of the songs
i remember about 92 of them - but that was when i was really listening to top 40
still amazed lulu got the biggest song that year - and you're right that few people are going to recall it
---
I was waiting for somebody to call me on that (actually I had "Yummy Yummy" in mind.)
you should listen carefully to some of the guitar riffs on that song - some of them resurfaced mysteriously a year later on "midnight rambler"
posted by pyramid termite at 9:47 AM on February 21, 2016
i remember about 92 of them - but that was when i was really listening to top 40
still amazed lulu got the biggest song that year - and you're right that few people are going to recall it
---
I was waiting for somebody to call me on that (actually I had "Yummy Yummy" in mind.)
you should listen carefully to some of the guitar riffs on that song - some of them resurfaced mysteriously a year later on "midnight rambler"
posted by pyramid termite at 9:47 AM on February 21, 2016
I'm also impressed by Spotify's Discover Weekly. It's the only algorithm that acknowledges I really truly really do want to hear West African and Brazilian music.
posted by argybarg at 9:59 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by argybarg at 9:59 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
All machine-generated, so there's no payola
Lol!
posted by aught at 10:00 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lol!
posted by aught at 10:00 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah but does your old music even djent?
While I do hate the term, I will say that the record that spawned a thousand djent bands is a fucking classic that should be remembered for a hundred years.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:00 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
While I do hate the term, I will say that the record that spawned a thousand djent bands is a fucking classic that should be remembered for a hundred years.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:00 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Could people stop it with the whole "when will the Baby Boomers die" business? I have, I admit, an imperfect relationship with my boomer parents, but hearing people cheering for their deaths is unpleasant.
Additionally, it's stupid and classist because it lumps working class, queer, POC and other marginalized groups in with wealthy, white, straight boomers (and mostly men at that) who actually have the habits that are deplored. Not to mention, it absolutely obliterates left intellectual and left organizer boomers. It's really, really sloppy thinking and I wish people here could knock it off.
posted by Frowner at 10:12 AM on February 21, 2016 [14 favorites]
Additionally, it's stupid and classist because it lumps working class, queer, POC and other marginalized groups in with wealthy, white, straight boomers (and mostly men at that) who actually have the habits that are deplored. Not to mention, it absolutely obliterates left intellectual and left organizer boomers. It's really, really sloppy thinking and I wish people here could knock it off.
posted by Frowner at 10:12 AM on February 21, 2016 [14 favorites]
hippybear: I'm not saying this to top you or as a putdown, but there are exactly 3 songs on that list that I couldn't sing a verse or chorus from, or hum a recognizable bit of melody. That is my problem with the niche-ification of pop. The car radio played everything. Everything.
posted by Chitownfats at 10:13 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by Chitownfats at 10:13 AM on February 21, 2016
To be honest, when I looked at 1975, I was the exact same way. But what is continuing to be played today is a much smaller subset of what I can remember from 1975, and in 10 years, that is mostly all that will be remembered from that particular playlist, that small subset. Such as it is with your experience of that particular 1967 list.. YOU remember it, but since what you remember is in your brain and there are forces which are shaping what IS remembered by the masses...
It's awesome that you have memories that are that clear of that year of music. I don't think your experience knocks my point to the ground, however.
posted by hippybear at 10:21 AM on February 21, 2016
It's awesome that you have memories that are that clear of that year of music. I don't think your experience knocks my point to the ground, however.
posted by hippybear at 10:21 AM on February 21, 2016
I believe it simply meant more to us.
mainly because we just didn't have as many other options available to pass the time. But the key word in here is "believe". It's an entirely subjective statement which, the more that I think about it, is probably wrong. Because music, when it's truly doing its thing, annihilates context -- it seduces you to its realm absolutely (whether it be 1959 or 2016).
Pick any other year from, let's say 1965 to 1975.. you'll be surprised at how little of what is on that chart is actually remembered today.
ummm, 1966 makes a liar of you. These aren't just the songs whose titles I recall (culled from the top 100 of that the year), they're the ones I still genuinely enjoy (and I was just a small kid in 1966 -- my nostalgia doesn't really kick in until around 1971).
Reach Out I'll Be There, The Four Tops
96 Tears, ? and The Mysterians
Last Train to Clarksville, The Monkees
Monday, Monday, The Mama's and The Papa's
You Can't Hurry Love, The Supremes
California Dreamin', The Mama's and The Papa's
Summer In the City, The Lovin' Spoonful
These Boots Are Made for Walkin', Nancy Sinatra
What Becomes of the Brokenhearted, Jimmy Ruffin
Strangers In the Night, Frank Sinatra
We Can Work It Out, The Beatles
Good Lovin', The Young Rascal
When a Man Loves a Woman, Percy Sledge
Paint It Black, The Rolling Stones
Wild Thing, The Troggs
Kicks, Paul Revere and The Raiders
Sunshine Superman, Donovan
Sunny, Bobby Hebb
Paperback Writer, The Beatles
You Keep Me Hangin' On, The Supremes
Devil With the Blue Dress On / Good Golly Miss Molly, Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels
Good Vibrations, The Beach Boys
You Don't Have to Say You Love Me, Dusty Springfield
Cool Jerk, The Capitols
Red Rubber Ball, The Cyrkle
Walk Away Renee, The Left Banke
Daydream, The Lovin' Spoonful
Time Won't Let Me, The Outsiders
Bus Stop, The Hollies
Ain't Too Proud to Beg, The Temptations
Dirty Water, The Standells
Elusive Butterfly, Bob Lind
I Am a Rock, Simon and Garfunkel
Secret Agent Man, Johnny Rivers
The Sound of Silence, Simon and Garfunkel
Homeward Bound, Simon and Garfunkel
Did You Ever Have to Make Up Your Mind?, The Lovin' Spoonful
Uptight (Everything's Alright), Stevie Wonder
19th Nervous Breakdown, The Rolling Stones
Wipe Out, The Surfaris
Psychotic Reaction, The Count Five
Coming On Strong, Brenda Lee
If I Were a Carpenter, Bobby Darin
Cherry, Cherry, Neil Diamond
Workin' In a Coal Mine Lee Dorsey
My World Is Empty Without You, The Supremes
Rainy Day Women #12 & 35, Bob Dylan
Guantanamera, The Sandpipers
Land of 1000 Dances, Wilson Pickett
Black Is Black, Los Bravos
Nowhere Man, The Beatles
I Fought the Law, The Bobby Fuller Four
Shapes of Things, The Yardbirds
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
mainly because we just didn't have as many other options available to pass the time. But the key word in here is "believe". It's an entirely subjective statement which, the more that I think about it, is probably wrong. Because music, when it's truly doing its thing, annihilates context -- it seduces you to its realm absolutely (whether it be 1959 or 2016).
Pick any other year from, let's say 1965 to 1975.. you'll be surprised at how little of what is on that chart is actually remembered today.
ummm, 1966 makes a liar of you. These aren't just the songs whose titles I recall (culled from the top 100 of that the year), they're the ones I still genuinely enjoy (and I was just a small kid in 1966 -- my nostalgia doesn't really kick in until around 1971).
Reach Out I'll Be There, The Four Tops
96 Tears, ? and The Mysterians
Last Train to Clarksville, The Monkees
Monday, Monday, The Mama's and The Papa's
You Can't Hurry Love, The Supremes
California Dreamin', The Mama's and The Papa's
Summer In the City, The Lovin' Spoonful
These Boots Are Made for Walkin', Nancy Sinatra
What Becomes of the Brokenhearted, Jimmy Ruffin
Strangers In the Night, Frank Sinatra
We Can Work It Out, The Beatles
Good Lovin', The Young Rascal
When a Man Loves a Woman, Percy Sledge
Paint It Black, The Rolling Stones
Wild Thing, The Troggs
Kicks, Paul Revere and The Raiders
Sunshine Superman, Donovan
Sunny, Bobby Hebb
Paperback Writer, The Beatles
You Keep Me Hangin' On, The Supremes
Devil With the Blue Dress On / Good Golly Miss Molly, Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels
Good Vibrations, The Beach Boys
You Don't Have to Say You Love Me, Dusty Springfield
Cool Jerk, The Capitols
Red Rubber Ball, The Cyrkle
Walk Away Renee, The Left Banke
Daydream, The Lovin' Spoonful
Time Won't Let Me, The Outsiders
Bus Stop, The Hollies
Ain't Too Proud to Beg, The Temptations
Dirty Water, The Standells
Elusive Butterfly, Bob Lind
I Am a Rock, Simon and Garfunkel
Secret Agent Man, Johnny Rivers
The Sound of Silence, Simon and Garfunkel
Homeward Bound, Simon and Garfunkel
Did You Ever Have to Make Up Your Mind?, The Lovin' Spoonful
Uptight (Everything's Alright), Stevie Wonder
19th Nervous Breakdown, The Rolling Stones
Wipe Out, The Surfaris
Psychotic Reaction, The Count Five
Coming On Strong, Brenda Lee
If I Were a Carpenter, Bobby Darin
Cherry, Cherry, Neil Diamond
Workin' In a Coal Mine Lee Dorsey
My World Is Empty Without You, The Supremes
Rainy Day Women #12 & 35, Bob Dylan
Guantanamera, The Sandpipers
Land of 1000 Dances, Wilson Pickett
Black Is Black, Los Bravos
Nowhere Man, The Beatles
I Fought the Law, The Bobby Fuller Four
Shapes of Things, The Yardbirds
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
These aren't just the songs whose titles I recall
These are the song titles YOU recall... I look at that list and many of them, the songs, are unfamiliar to me. I was born in 68, and have had a love affair with the music of the 60s for most of my life, but I wasn't there, I wasn't exposed, I don't know much of it.
Those born 20 years after me, how much of even what I know off that list do they know?
Time sorts things out into categories of "known" and "forgotten", and that individuals might remember something only counts if they can pass that knowledge on to others. The music world doesn't pass along much, sadly.
posted by hippybear at 10:30 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
These are the song titles YOU recall... I look at that list and many of them, the songs, are unfamiliar to me. I was born in 68, and have had a love affair with the music of the 60s for most of my life, but I wasn't there, I wasn't exposed, I don't know much of it.
Those born 20 years after me, how much of even what I know off that list do they know?
Time sorts things out into categories of "known" and "forgotten", and that individuals might remember something only counts if they can pass that knowledge on to others. The music world doesn't pass along much, sadly.
posted by hippybear at 10:30 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
philip-random: C'mon, he's not a "liar". Good Lord, can't we have a discussion without our "arthritic fingers" around each others' throats.
posted by Chitownfats at 10:31 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by Chitownfats at 10:31 AM on February 21, 2016
philip-random: C'mon, he's not a "liar".
sorry - that's a turn-of-phrase in my circle that's not intended to be accusatory, more anachronistic (imagine it delivered with a pompous English accent).
posted by philip-random at 10:37 AM on February 21, 2016
sorry - that's a turn-of-phrase in my circle that's not intended to be accusatory, more anachronistic (imagine it delivered with a pompous English accent).
posted by philip-random at 10:37 AM on February 21, 2016
To be fair, I didn't feel I was being called a liar, per se -- I recognized it for the turn of phrase that it was.
posted by hippybear at 10:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:41 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Chitownfats' arthritic entitled fingers slowly close around his own throat.
posted by Chitownfats at 10:46 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by Chitownfats at 10:46 AM on February 21, 2016
then you weren't listening to top 40 radio - *cues bobby goldsboro's "honey"*
posted by pyramid termite at 10:31 AM on February 21
Well guess what's stuck in my head now? Great, just great.
posted by Trochanter at 10:46 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 10:31 AM on February 21
Well guess what's stuck in my head now? Great, just great.
posted by Trochanter at 10:46 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
MetaFilter: guess what's stuck in my head now?
posted by hippybear at 10:51 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:51 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Music to me is what it says and who it's talking to. Rock and Roll turned out to be an umbrella genus sheltering a variety of newly developing musical species. Though Rock moves forward in time, it leaves an indelible trail. At any given point Rock pokes at previous generations with the clear message that our children are not us. Gramps won't get invited to do the twist on American Bandstand, but he can sing along with the tunes on the radio. You Are My Sunshine, but Your Cheating Heart will make you weep.
Not so irrelevant factoid: In a political science class, one my fellow students presented an essay based on the hypothesis that Rock and Rock of the day (1971) was egalitarian, and supported the major topics of the major political upheavals of our times: civil rights, racism, war, misogyny. Imagine his discomfort when his survey of contemporaneous lyrics showed that we were still in the throes of the evils we were marching in the streets in an effort to eliminate. Only the Vietnam War itself was being whacked about (to any great extent) in our music. Our music presented Women as kitchen muffins, fit to warm the sleeping bag, but not to lead the marches. In retrospect I believe the forward thinking feminists of the times were probably driven half-nuts trying to explain this shit to their brothers in arms. In the real world, music was about concerts and live performances in shitty little music halls as much as which color of metal the albums achieved. Not so many frogs per prince.
I first listened to Rock in about 1959. Yep. AM stations. Call in your dedications between seven and ten P.M. HiFi, obviated by the lousy little four-inch speaker on my radio. Anyhow it was mono only. We got stereo with LP records...don't forget to gently pick the lint off the needle. (Many of you may not understand that "needle," in this case, doesn't refer to drug paraphernalia. Ask grandpa.) Somewhere between the Everly Brothers and Elvis we found Sam Cook and The Righteous Brothers, and a whole shitload of other excellent performers. But in this mix you had to deal with a dozen shitloads of Alvin and the fucking Chipmunks to get there. After the Folk infusion the genre blossomed. So, while it seems that while guitar players and stoop crooners were a dime-a-dozen, we still had to sniff 100 frogs for every prince we got to kiss.
It's not clear where the straw dogs in this essay begin and personal preference ends. I can't find the thread of his logic. Everything seems like spitballs. Fusseli gets paid to survey music. Fine. His metric seems to be sales. He doesn't seem to be comfortable with the notion that not many of us have musical tastes that span decades. My grandson hates Dave van Rock, for example, and likes to spit a lot when he's doing his music. Jeez. I have trouble with Fussil's notion that the music I buy from one person causes another to lose sales.
I still believe that Rock & Roll is here to stay. If Rock has an intrinsic value (I believe has a certain spiritual value) it's that it makes room for the next wave of musicians--musicians are a sketchy bunch under the most generous of evaluations, but they are all alive to the fact that they are standing on the shoulders of giants. Let the great rise. Maybe our grandkids will run across the rockers of my day and pause a bit before they resume their musical march to the beat of their own drummers. Please, don't make me try to explain that goddam Woodstock movie again.
Anyhow, I'm sure the music of today is just the bee's knees. Vo doh di oh doh.
posted by mule98J at 10:52 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not so irrelevant factoid: In a political science class, one my fellow students presented an essay based on the hypothesis that Rock and Rock of the day (1971) was egalitarian, and supported the major topics of the major political upheavals of our times: civil rights, racism, war, misogyny. Imagine his discomfort when his survey of contemporaneous lyrics showed that we were still in the throes of the evils we were marching in the streets in an effort to eliminate. Only the Vietnam War itself was being whacked about (to any great extent) in our music. Our music presented Women as kitchen muffins, fit to warm the sleeping bag, but not to lead the marches. In retrospect I believe the forward thinking feminists of the times were probably driven half-nuts trying to explain this shit to their brothers in arms. In the real world, music was about concerts and live performances in shitty little music halls as much as which color of metal the albums achieved. Not so many frogs per prince.
I first listened to Rock in about 1959. Yep. AM stations. Call in your dedications between seven and ten P.M. HiFi, obviated by the lousy little four-inch speaker on my radio. Anyhow it was mono only. We got stereo with LP records...don't forget to gently pick the lint off the needle. (Many of you may not understand that "needle," in this case, doesn't refer to drug paraphernalia. Ask grandpa.) Somewhere between the Everly Brothers and Elvis we found Sam Cook and The Righteous Brothers, and a whole shitload of other excellent performers. But in this mix you had to deal with a dozen shitloads of Alvin and the fucking Chipmunks to get there. After the Folk infusion the genre blossomed. So, while it seems that while guitar players and stoop crooners were a dime-a-dozen, we still had to sniff 100 frogs for every prince we got to kiss.
It's not clear where the straw dogs in this essay begin and personal preference ends. I can't find the thread of his logic. Everything seems like spitballs. Fusseli gets paid to survey music. Fine. His metric seems to be sales. He doesn't seem to be comfortable with the notion that not many of us have musical tastes that span decades. My grandson hates Dave van Rock, for example, and likes to spit a lot when he's doing his music. Jeez. I have trouble with Fussil's notion that the music I buy from one person causes another to lose sales.
I still believe that Rock & Roll is here to stay. If Rock has an intrinsic value (I believe has a certain spiritual value) it's that it makes room for the next wave of musicians--musicians are a sketchy bunch under the most generous of evaluations, but they are all alive to the fact that they are standing on the shoulders of giants. Let the great rise. Maybe our grandkids will run across the rockers of my day and pause a bit before they resume their musical march to the beat of their own drummers. Please, don't make me try to explain that goddam Woodstock movie again.
Anyhow, I'm sure the music of today is just the bee's knees. Vo doh di oh doh.
posted by mule98J at 10:52 AM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
You're right, Frowner, and I'm sorry for that flight into hyperbole. I was painting with a broad brush and it was sloppy of me. But I won't be sad to see the Boomers grip on popular culture recede over the horizon. Fifty years of turning on the radio to hear "Sweet Home Alabama" followed by Foghat has left its marks.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:55 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
argybarg: "I'm also impressed by Spotify's Discover Weekly. It's the only algorithm that acknowledges I really truly really do want to hear West African and Brazilian music."
As an old (45), my new music discover strategy is to listen straight through Discover Weekly every Monday, usually while doing something else, and click on and explore anything that catches my fancy. It's how I discovered Grimes, Dead Sara, Wolf Alice, Kid Wave, Queen Kwong, Gwenno, PINS, Hero Fisher, Lowell, Bully, Courtney Barnett, etc.
It's my current day replacement for my oh-so-obsolete strategy of 15 years ago of plopping in front of MTV for a while until something interesting pops up.
I can proudly say that my 'listening to now' Spotify playlist has nothing recorded before 2013 or so.
posted by signal at 10:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
As an old (45), my new music discover strategy is to listen straight through Discover Weekly every Monday, usually while doing something else, and click on and explore anything that catches my fancy. It's how I discovered Grimes, Dead Sara, Wolf Alice, Kid Wave, Queen Kwong, Gwenno, PINS, Hero Fisher, Lowell, Bully, Courtney Barnett, etc.
It's my current day replacement for my oh-so-obsolete strategy of 15 years ago of plopping in front of MTV for a while until something interesting pops up.
I can proudly say that my 'listening to now' Spotify playlist has nothing recorded before 2013 or so.
posted by signal at 10:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was once lucky enough to have the local classic rock station, a robot that pretends to be a real person, play Sweet Home Alabama followed immediately by Neil Young's Southern Man. It was the closest to actual political commentary that the robot had ever achieved.
posted by hippybear at 10:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:58 AM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
I don't have spotify, but I do have a VEVO app on my AppleTV, and it offers video streams that are encouragingly reminiscent of old-school MTV. I get a lot of my new music exposure through video streams just like I did in the 80s. It's not the widest selection on the planet, but it's somehow nostalgia-scratching satisfying.
Those VEVO streams are also available through a web browser, I believe.
posted by hippybear at 11:02 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Those VEVO streams are also available through a web browser, I believe.
posted by hippybear at 11:02 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
As someone at the tail end of Generation X who hates the standard issue olds’ disdain for new music, I don’t need to spend the rest of my life listening to the same stuff or pretending that having limited access made music more “meaningful”. It just meant lack of access, and now I get to listen to a whole range of new and exciting artists and to listen to all the bands I'd heard of for years who never had more than a song or two on the radio or who never got radio play, side projects, genres that never get much play or the albums of openers I was introduced to at a random show that I arrived at late. It is glorious.
I am a die-hard fan of Bowie, the Pixies, Gary Numan, and a bunch of other stuff I grew up with. You can take all my crappy punk albums from my cold, dead hands, which - since I have finally moved from tapes to CDs to ogg files, means deleting my terabyte drive and then finding my backup, and then blocking my internet access.
But I'll fight you even harder over access to new stuff, and to a wider range of older stuff that I never got to hear on the radio because so many radio stations refused (and probably still refuse) to play female vocalists, people of color, and overtly queer material. Calls for the music of yesteryear are rarely about any artists besides straight white men - the Beatles, the Stones, bands I can't stand because of their chronic misogyny and bland themes, rather than, say, classic Motown. If the rest of y'all olds want to miss out on all the great new stuff because you're busy masturbating over old British Invasion bands, I guess that's your business. But acting morally superior over having your tastes fossilize is ridiculous. I'm not going to stop searching out new bands for the same reason I'm not going to spend my life watching reruns of Star Trek and complaining that new stuff can't compare, or only reading silver age comics, or refusing to read a book published after I turned 25. Give me Janelle Monáe, FEMM, Courtney Barnett, PWR BTTM, Grimes, and also the new material from everyone I love who's still putting it out.
posted by bile and syntax at 11:03 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am a die-hard fan of Bowie, the Pixies, Gary Numan, and a bunch of other stuff I grew up with. You can take all my crappy punk albums from my cold, dead hands, which - since I have finally moved from tapes to CDs to ogg files, means deleting my terabyte drive and then finding my backup, and then blocking my internet access.
But I'll fight you even harder over access to new stuff, and to a wider range of older stuff that I never got to hear on the radio because so many radio stations refused (and probably still refuse) to play female vocalists, people of color, and overtly queer material. Calls for the music of yesteryear are rarely about any artists besides straight white men - the Beatles, the Stones, bands I can't stand because of their chronic misogyny and bland themes, rather than, say, classic Motown. If the rest of y'all olds want to miss out on all the great new stuff because you're busy masturbating over old British Invasion bands, I guess that's your business. But acting morally superior over having your tastes fossilize is ridiculous. I'm not going to stop searching out new bands for the same reason I'm not going to spend my life watching reruns of Star Trek and complaining that new stuff can't compare, or only reading silver age comics, or refusing to read a book published after I turned 25. Give me Janelle Monáe, FEMM, Courtney Barnett, PWR BTTM, Grimes, and also the new material from everyone I love who's still putting it out.
posted by bile and syntax at 11:03 AM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ten thoughts:
1. So yeah, '60s through '80s funk doesn't hit my ear the same way as it does my Gen. X husband's; we both care deeply about music and are both musicians, but getting used to his musical tastes was like generational time travel. He's hearing something and his neurons are firing like "This is the best thing ever," whereas at first I used to reflexively change the station when that stuff came on. I've listened to enough now that I get it, and I can recognize the sound enough to not turn it off, and yeah, I've met George Clinton and been to some shows. I understand the connections to the rap and hip-hop I grew up with and how it all threads together. I like it now. But it's never going to be the thing that does it for me that way it does it for him.
2. You guys talking about how you don't listen to the radio know they stream the radio online now, right? You can listen to KEXP or KXLU or KDHX all day if you want. (Just don't listen to the last during the day on the weekend, 'cause it's all bluegrass now.)
3. Changing offices, from rooming with a magazine's culture editor to working remotely with New York hipsters and tech geeks (meant in the best sense of all terms) has definitely changed my music discovery habits. I'm not getting comps of local albums anymore, but I'm getting to hear what passes for local in Brooklyn. Then when I get in the car it's terrible top-40 pop that is actually no more terrible and manufactured and no less catchy than top-40 pop ever was. What's different is that I don't feel the same pressure to know what's current locally that I did as a magazine editor. I probably miss some things that way, but I'm pulling a lot more in from farther afield.
4. All of that said, now, as before, there's serious emotional reward to be had for finding something old, obscure, and wonderful that sounds like the stuff friends (or my husband and his friends) remember from their youth but is totally new to them. The long tail of the Internet makes us all crate-diggers. (And there's still joy in crate-digging, 'cause everything is most certainly not all on the Internet yet.)
5. If you don't think Blackstar will be influential, think about all the Clash-inspired music that came out around the 10-year anniversary of Joe Strummer's death. (There was a lot.) There will certainly be a similar ripple effect here.
6. Ugh, AutoTune for chords. Bryan Adams wasn't wrong: Isn't the point of picking up a guitar to play it 'til your fingers bleed, trying to get the intonation right? That said, I don't even need to get essentialist about how one plays guitar to dislike the idea of AutoTune for guitar chords. I really like lo-fi music and stuff like Pavement that's deliberately off-kilter, or like Johnny Cash freely admitting that he played the way he did 'cause he couldn't play any better, because it's accessible in an inspiring way. It makes me think, "OK, I could probably do this," whereas years of listening to overproduced pop (and paging through the occasional massively orchestrated book of tablature that someone like Billy Corgan compiled post hoc) discouraged me from playing much at all. It's harder for women to get into rock in all kinds of ways (see also: the erasure of women from the archives of '90s alt-rock stations—the '90s alt-rock scene was about as feminist as it has ever gotten, even if it still wasn't as feminist as it should've been). But our own expectations about the level of musicianship we need to aspire to can be part of the problem, and stuff like AutoTune sets the bar artificially high both monetarily and in terms of musicianship.
7. And yeah, the notion of imprinting on Pavement before hearing The Fall rings true with me. When you come to something first that perhaps took off of something earlier, that earlier thing might always sound cut-rate in some way to you, because it's not the sonically fully realized version that benefited from having the earlier work as a jumping-off point. Like yeah, The Who is OK, but Guided by Voices tried to be The Who and ended up somewhere entirely more interesting.
8. biscotti mentioned listening to albums with friends—such luxury, to have friends whose musical tastes mirrored your own at all! The last time a significant number of my friends liked the same music I did was third-wave ska in high school, or maybe when everyone and their mothers were singing along to Evanescence in college. Sigh. My rockist tastes have forever been at odds with those of my friends and even my husband (I like a lot more of his stuff than he does of my stuff), but that's actually freeing in some sense, because I've had to get it through my head that no one cares about my taste in music. Then it's a delightful surprise to get gratification for it, like when we swap YouTube links at work, or when my husband or a friend of his looks at me out of the corner of their eye with respect and surprise, because I know about something from some seminal era that they didn't think anyone (much less a woman?) knew about or that even they didn't know about.
9. Re: that sort of musical metadata, I used to think the culture of music was just minutiae that kept one from appreciating the raw sound. But as I've gained context over the years, it's helped me see the value in a lot of music that I just didn't get at first. Maybe it's just the joy of pedantry, but being able to see the gossamer threads that connect various artists and hear the musical in-jokes in various flourishes, to recognize those tips of the hat, is so satisfying. Just catching those connections is a way for me to get value from music that isn't necessarily connected in any way, sonically or culturally, to my first set of favorites from my youth.
10. Re: adults participating in youth culture, iono, for me it's like when my little cousins gave me Silly Bandz or made me a rainbow loom bracelet, or like realizing that much of what I completely love about weird Twitter and Tumblr is this amazing absurdist humor that turns out to be a youth subculture. I enjoy the hell out of diving into their world and finding things to connect with, and I was kind of thrilled to learn I had the same taste in winged sneakers as my tween cousin. At worst it's amusing and at best it's a way to connect with more people. It's also another satisfying dive that people stuck in their own generational milieu of music just have no idea about. As long as you have a sense of perspective about it, I think it's great that people are far less embarrassed today to cross generational lines.
posted by limeonaire at 11:05 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
1. So yeah, '60s through '80s funk doesn't hit my ear the same way as it does my Gen. X husband's; we both care deeply about music and are both musicians, but getting used to his musical tastes was like generational time travel. He's hearing something and his neurons are firing like "This is the best thing ever," whereas at first I used to reflexively change the station when that stuff came on. I've listened to enough now that I get it, and I can recognize the sound enough to not turn it off, and yeah, I've met George Clinton and been to some shows. I understand the connections to the rap and hip-hop I grew up with and how it all threads together. I like it now. But it's never going to be the thing that does it for me that way it does it for him.
2. You guys talking about how you don't listen to the radio know they stream the radio online now, right? You can listen to KEXP or KXLU or KDHX all day if you want. (Just don't listen to the last during the day on the weekend, 'cause it's all bluegrass now.)
3. Changing offices, from rooming with a magazine's culture editor to working remotely with New York hipsters and tech geeks (meant in the best sense of all terms) has definitely changed my music discovery habits. I'm not getting comps of local albums anymore, but I'm getting to hear what passes for local in Brooklyn. Then when I get in the car it's terrible top-40 pop that is actually no more terrible and manufactured and no less catchy than top-40 pop ever was. What's different is that I don't feel the same pressure to know what's current locally that I did as a magazine editor. I probably miss some things that way, but I'm pulling a lot more in from farther afield.
4. All of that said, now, as before, there's serious emotional reward to be had for finding something old, obscure, and wonderful that sounds like the stuff friends (or my husband and his friends) remember from their youth but is totally new to them. The long tail of the Internet makes us all crate-diggers. (And there's still joy in crate-digging, 'cause everything is most certainly not all on the Internet yet.)
5. If you don't think Blackstar will be influential, think about all the Clash-inspired music that came out around the 10-year anniversary of Joe Strummer's death. (There was a lot.) There will certainly be a similar ripple effect here.
6. Ugh, AutoTune for chords. Bryan Adams wasn't wrong: Isn't the point of picking up a guitar to play it 'til your fingers bleed, trying to get the intonation right? That said, I don't even need to get essentialist about how one plays guitar to dislike the idea of AutoTune for guitar chords. I really like lo-fi music and stuff like Pavement that's deliberately off-kilter, or like Johnny Cash freely admitting that he played the way he did 'cause he couldn't play any better, because it's accessible in an inspiring way. It makes me think, "OK, I could probably do this," whereas years of listening to overproduced pop (and paging through the occasional massively orchestrated book of tablature that someone like Billy Corgan compiled post hoc) discouraged me from playing much at all. It's harder for women to get into rock in all kinds of ways (see also: the erasure of women from the archives of '90s alt-rock stations—the '90s alt-rock scene was about as feminist as it has ever gotten, even if it still wasn't as feminist as it should've been). But our own expectations about the level of musicianship we need to aspire to can be part of the problem, and stuff like AutoTune sets the bar artificially high both monetarily and in terms of musicianship.
7. And yeah, the notion of imprinting on Pavement before hearing The Fall rings true with me. When you come to something first that perhaps took off of something earlier, that earlier thing might always sound cut-rate in some way to you, because it's not the sonically fully realized version that benefited from having the earlier work as a jumping-off point. Like yeah, The Who is OK, but Guided by Voices tried to be The Who and ended up somewhere entirely more interesting.
8. biscotti mentioned listening to albums with friends—such luxury, to have friends whose musical tastes mirrored your own at all! The last time a significant number of my friends liked the same music I did was third-wave ska in high school, or maybe when everyone and their mothers were singing along to Evanescence in college. Sigh. My rockist tastes have forever been at odds with those of my friends and even my husband (I like a lot more of his stuff than he does of my stuff), but that's actually freeing in some sense, because I've had to get it through my head that no one cares about my taste in music. Then it's a delightful surprise to get gratification for it, like when we swap YouTube links at work, or when my husband or a friend of his looks at me out of the corner of their eye with respect and surprise, because I know about something from some seminal era that they didn't think anyone (much less a woman?) knew about or that even they didn't know about.
9. Re: that sort of musical metadata, I used to think the culture of music was just minutiae that kept one from appreciating the raw sound. But as I've gained context over the years, it's helped me see the value in a lot of music that I just didn't get at first. Maybe it's just the joy of pedantry, but being able to see the gossamer threads that connect various artists and hear the musical in-jokes in various flourishes, to recognize those tips of the hat, is so satisfying. Just catching those connections is a way for me to get value from music that isn't necessarily connected in any way, sonically or culturally, to my first set of favorites from my youth.
10. Re: adults participating in youth culture, iono, for me it's like when my little cousins gave me Silly Bandz or made me a rainbow loom bracelet, or like realizing that much of what I completely love about weird Twitter and Tumblr is this amazing absurdist humor that turns out to be a youth subculture. I enjoy the hell out of diving into their world and finding things to connect with, and I was kind of thrilled to learn I had the same taste in winged sneakers as my tween cousin. At worst it's amusing and at best it's a way to connect with more people. It's also another satisfying dive that people stuck in their own generational milieu of music just have no idea about. As long as you have a sense of perspective about it, I think it's great that people are far less embarrassed today to cross generational lines.
posted by limeonaire at 11:05 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
a certain self-important type of critic ... decided that no group that was adored by so many teenage girls could possibly be good, ever. That's the heart of anti-Beatle snobbery.
Maybe this was true back in the 60s, but I don't think many of the people who yawn at The Beatles today are incensed by their role as the Justin Biebers of 1963.
For me, it's like this: I acknowledge that The Beatles were hugely innovative and influential. Had I been around at the time, and of a receptive demographic and mindset, perhaps they would have blown my mind.
But I wasn't around at the time, so all of this is historical to me. I grew up in a world where The Beatles had long since come and gone. Before I was even born—let alone before I started taking a serious interest in music—their influence had already been thoroughly absorbed into popular music, and many, many layers had been built on top of it, and many of those layers had come and gone. (And many other artists had introduced their own, independent innovations.)
So I can acknowledge the historical importance of The Beatles, without actually finding anything exciting about their music. Because I've heard it all a thousand times before, in a thousand different permutations, and elaborated to every imaginable extreme and beyond.
Okay, fine—The Beatles were the first to do it. So what? Here in 2016, is that fact supposed to make the music more emotionally compelling to me? Because, sorry, it doesn't. I can acknowledge the importance of Space Invaders to video game history, and imagine how exciting it must have been at the time—but I don't want to play Space Invaders, because it's fucking boring. (Not a perfect analogy, but close enough.)
And I'm not even young (I'm 38). Today's twentysomethings probably feel much the same way about the music I grew up with—as well they should. It would be weird and worrisome if young people only listened to, and created, old kinds of music.
The Beatles were groundbreaking—half a century ago. I want to hear music that's groundbreaking today. When people say (of imply) things like "music reached its apotheosis in [insert year here]", it's like they were reading The Lord of the Rings, got to the part where the Fellowship arrived in Rivendell, and stopped reading. And then spent the next few decades saying "wasn't it great when the Fellowship got to Rivendell? I love that chapter. They don't write things like that anymore." And it's like, dude—there's more to the story. That was indeed an awesome chapter, but the fact that you put the book away and convinced yourself that there are no more chapters doesn't make it true.
Even with all of this aside: The Beatles are simply played out. However great those songs are, I've heard them all a thousand times. I've extracted everything that I'm going to extract from them.
Or, as leotrotsky so brilliantly put it:
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:06 AM on February 21, 2016 [10 favorites]
Maybe this was true back in the 60s, but I don't think many of the people who yawn at The Beatles today are incensed by their role as the Justin Biebers of 1963.
For me, it's like this: I acknowledge that The Beatles were hugely innovative and influential. Had I been around at the time, and of a receptive demographic and mindset, perhaps they would have blown my mind.
But I wasn't around at the time, so all of this is historical to me. I grew up in a world where The Beatles had long since come and gone. Before I was even born—let alone before I started taking a serious interest in music—their influence had already been thoroughly absorbed into popular music, and many, many layers had been built on top of it, and many of those layers had come and gone. (And many other artists had introduced their own, independent innovations.)
So I can acknowledge the historical importance of The Beatles, without actually finding anything exciting about their music. Because I've heard it all a thousand times before, in a thousand different permutations, and elaborated to every imaginable extreme and beyond.
Okay, fine—The Beatles were the first to do it. So what? Here in 2016, is that fact supposed to make the music more emotionally compelling to me? Because, sorry, it doesn't. I can acknowledge the importance of Space Invaders to video game history, and imagine how exciting it must have been at the time—but I don't want to play Space Invaders, because it's fucking boring. (Not a perfect analogy, but close enough.)
And I'm not even young (I'm 38). Today's twentysomethings probably feel much the same way about the music I grew up with—as well they should. It would be weird and worrisome if young people only listened to, and created, old kinds of music.
The Beatles were groundbreaking—half a century ago. I want to hear music that's groundbreaking today. When people say (of imply) things like "music reached its apotheosis in [insert year here]", it's like they were reading The Lord of the Rings, got to the part where the Fellowship arrived in Rivendell, and stopped reading. And then spent the next few decades saying "wasn't it great when the Fellowship got to Rivendell? I love that chapter. They don't write things like that anymore." And it's like, dude—there's more to the story. That was indeed an awesome chapter, but the fact that you put the book away and convinced yourself that there are no more chapters doesn't make it true.
Even with all of this aside: The Beatles are simply played out. However great those songs are, I've heard them all a thousand times. I've extracted everything that I'm going to extract from them.
Or, as leotrotsky so brilliantly put it:
1974 was 40 years ago.Boomers really seem to believe that there's something singularly brilliant and meaningful about the culture of their generation. There isn't. There's plenty of good stuff in there, to be sure—but it is not the standard against which all other music shall be measured, forevermore.
Classic Rock stations are the musical equivalent of playing 'Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy' in 1985.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:06 AM on February 21, 2016 [10 favorites]
MetaFilter: guess what's stuck in my head now?
this almost always works. and you are warned ...
posted by philip-random at 11:10 AM on February 21, 2016
this almost always works. and you are warned ...
posted by philip-random at 11:10 AM on February 21, 2016
Boomers really seem to believe that there's something singularly brilliant and meaningful about the culture of their generation.
I don't think there's anything singularly odious about the boomers. They've always been, and remain a big demographic bump, that's all.
posted by Trochanter at 11:11 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think there's anything singularly odious about the boomers. They've always been, and remain a big demographic bump, that's all.
posted by Trochanter at 11:11 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
My problem with the Beatles had nothing to do with their music and everything to do with their veritable deification as The Perfect Band. Like, people will just not shut up about them. Yes, they were great. No, I don't care that they were an influence on your music, nor do I want to play Beatles Rock Band, nor am I inclined to pay attention to your analysis of "She's So Heavy." The world is thoroughly oversaturated with the Beatles. The only interesting Beatles-related event in recent memory was Sir Paul getting turned away at Tyga's party.
Take a look at the classical music establishment to see where slavish devotion to the "masters of the past" gets you.
In other news, Hell Yes Courtney Barnett.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:12 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Take a look at the classical music establishment to see where slavish devotion to the "masters of the past" gets you.
In other news, Hell Yes Courtney Barnett.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:12 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Okay, fine—The Beatles were the first to do it. So what?
So others should attempt to be the first to do things musically as well, rather than (as so much rock now does) copying the gargoyles instead of building the cathedral.
The Beatles were groundbreaking—half a century ago. I want to hear music that's groundbreaking today.
There just isn't very much of it. I hear people say that Kanye West is a brilliant musician, and then the same people say OK he's not a great rapper, but still. So you listen to the album and whenever there's a good bit, it turns out to be a sample of something from 30 years ago. Why is this OK?
posted by colie at 11:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
So others should attempt to be the first to do things musically as well, rather than (as so much rock now does) copying the gargoyles instead of building the cathedral.
The Beatles were groundbreaking—half a century ago. I want to hear music that's groundbreaking today.
There just isn't very much of it. I hear people say that Kanye West is a brilliant musician, and then the same people say OK he's not a great rapper, but still. So you listen to the album and whenever there's a good bit, it turns out to be a sample of something from 30 years ago. Why is this OK?
posted by colie at 11:13 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or, as leotrotsky so brilliantly put it:
1974 was 40 years ago.
Classic Rock stations are the musical equivalent of playing 'Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy' in 1985.
except this happened in 1972-73
Bette Midler included a cover of the song on her 1972 The Divine Miss M album, also releasing it as the B side of the album's second single, "Delta Dawn." However, when "Delta Dawn" met resistance from radio (due to competition from Helen Reddy's version), the single was quickly flipped, with "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" becoming the new A side. [2] Midler's version peaked at number eight on the Billboard Hot 100 singles chart in mid-1973, introducing it to a new generation of pop music fans. The single was produced by Barry Manilow. The track was also a number-one single on the Billboard easy listening chart. [3]
posted by philip-random at 11:14 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
1974 was 40 years ago.
Classic Rock stations are the musical equivalent of playing 'Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy' in 1985.
except this happened in 1972-73
Bette Midler included a cover of the song on her 1972 The Divine Miss M album, also releasing it as the B side of the album's second single, "Delta Dawn." However, when "Delta Dawn" met resistance from radio (due to competition from Helen Reddy's version), the single was quickly flipped, with "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" becoming the new A side. [2] Midler's version peaked at number eight on the Billboard Hot 100 singles chart in mid-1973, introducing it to a new generation of pop music fans. The single was produced by Barry Manilow. The track was also a number-one single on the Billboard easy listening chart. [3]
posted by philip-random at 11:14 AM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
I love how Fusilli, the guy telling us to stop buying Dylan albums, is also the guy who wrote the 33-1/3rd volume on Pet Sounds.
But still and all, I admire what he's trying to do -- and his website (renewmusic.net) appears to have a great scope, not just NPR in miniature. Even Protomartyr gets a shout-out, which is great if you like thinking-person's noise-rock.
Regarding the Beatles, I don't think I ever survived my first brush with them, in 1978/79, courtesy of Stars on 45.
posted by saintjoe at 11:16 AM on February 21, 2016
But still and all, I admire what he's trying to do -- and his website (renewmusic.net) appears to have a great scope, not just NPR in miniature. Even Protomartyr gets a shout-out, which is great if you like thinking-person's noise-rock.
Regarding the Beatles, I don't think I ever survived my first brush with them, in 1978/79, courtesy of Stars on 45.
posted by saintjoe at 11:16 AM on February 21, 2016
Classic Rock stations are the musical equivalent of playing 'Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy' in 1985.
But this is what actually begs the question (or whatever the heck people have decided what people actually mean when they use the trope "beg the question"): There *weren't* a zillion "Classic 1940's" stations in 1985. Why not? The Class of 45 certainly had their "white entitled male heterosexual, etc., the-rest-of-what-you-hate" coterie.
posted by Chitownfats at 11:19 AM on February 21, 2016
But this is what actually begs the question (or whatever the heck people have decided what people actually mean when they use the trope "beg the question"): There *weren't* a zillion "Classic 1940's" stations in 1985. Why not? The Class of 45 certainly had their "white entitled male heterosexual, etc., the-rest-of-what-you-hate" coterie.
posted by Chitownfats at 11:19 AM on February 21, 2016
Equally interesting is to look at those charts from the late 60s and to realize, when rock and roll was a fully acknowledged force in music during that time, Sinatra and others were still in the charts. It isn't like the spigot got turned from one music style to another...
But yes, where were the "classic music" stations for previous generations? Was "easy listening" the closest that generation had to having its music distributed? And even that is not even a fair thing to say...
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
But yes, where were the "classic music" stations for previous generations? Was "easy listening" the closest that generation had to having its music distributed? And even that is not even a fair thing to say...
posted by hippybear at 11:25 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Total speculation: Maybe there wasn't the culture of consumption around '40s music the way it was built up around the music that came after that. The people who were into '40s music also came up in an era of war and austerity, so maybe they weren't buying records the same way as their kids did (and so radio stations weren't pumped full of that music to sell it). I wonder whether there's data on record sales that might bear this out. (See also: first comment in the thread.)
posted by limeonaire at 11:26 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 11:26 AM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
My grandmother is 96, and her pop culture nostalgia is more focused on movies than on music. But also, she didn't have a really shiny, happy adolescence and young adulthood, because of the Depression and World War II, and I don't think she has the same kind of nostalgia for her youth that those of us who came afterwards do.
I think there was nostalgia radio for olds in the '80s, though. I spent a lot of time at my next-door neighbors' house as a kid, and they listened to radio programs that played pre-rock pop music.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:28 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think there was nostalgia radio for olds in the '80s, though. I spent a lot of time at my next-door neighbors' house as a kid, and they listened to radio programs that played pre-rock pop music.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:28 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I remember WABE in Atlanta had a big-band show on Saturday nights, in the 80's, and that would have been a place to hear that old dance music (as opposed to the "easy listening" genre, with the Thorazine string arrangements of crooner repetoire) ....I remember finding this to be kind of sad, from my perch as 14-year old arbiter of cultural forms
posted by thelonius at 11:31 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 11:31 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
There *weren't* a zillion "Classic 1940's" stations in 1985.
Sure there were.
posted by mwhybark at 11:32 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sure there were.
posted by mwhybark at 11:32 AM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
So you listen to the album and whenever there's a good bit, it turns out to be a sample of something from 30 years ago. Why is this OK?
I will answer you musically:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8fCXNTCWig
Or for an "updated" version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H18i05NEkck
posted by cell divide at 11:38 AM on February 21, 2016
I will answer you musically:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8fCXNTCWig
Or for an "updated" version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H18i05NEkck
posted by cell divide at 11:38 AM on February 21, 2016
oh, the irony ... ella against, um, who?
posted by pyramid termite at 11:47 AM on February 21, 2016
posted by pyramid termite at 11:47 AM on February 21, 2016
It's probably already been said, but i think we reached a point of homeostasis a couple years back where saying "the beatles are overrated" or "people who say the beatles are the best band ever are dumb" is as eye roll inducing as the actual original eye-roll opinions.
posted by emptythought at 11:53 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emptythought at 11:53 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
→ Classic Rock stations are the musical equivalent of playing 'Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy' in 1985.
but we kind of were. Just a little bit of it, lots of times.
posted by scruss at 11:56 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
but we kind of were. Just a little bit of it, lots of times.
posted by scruss at 11:56 AM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's probably already been said, but i think we reached a point of homeostasis a couple years back where saying "the beatles are overrated" or "people who say the beatles are the best band ever are dumb" is as eye roll inducing as the actual original eye-roll opinions.
I once had drinks at the apartment of a number of recent theatre school grads. One of them had gotten a degree in playwriting. I asked who their favorite playwright was snd they replied "Uh, I really like Shakespeare." The Beatles fill the same role for pop music
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:08 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I once had drinks at the apartment of a number of recent theatre school grads. One of them had gotten a degree in playwriting. I asked who their favorite playwright was snd they replied "Uh, I really like Shakespeare." The Beatles fill the same role for pop music
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:08 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
One more thing:
Music derives meaning, in large part, in relation to the surrounding culture. And culture changes. It's changed a lot since the 60s and 70s. And so the music of the 60s and 70s doesn't necessarily have much relevance in the the context of today's culture. And maybe we need new kinds of music that does.
That is, I would argue, exactly why we do have new kinds of music: every generation of musicians strives to express themselves in ways that are relevant to, and which respond meaningfully to, their own lived experience. Perhaps some of those who fail to appreciate newer music simply haven't kept up with those broader cultural changes.
There just isn't very much of it.
If you're looking to pop music and the Top 40 for the most vital music in 2016, perhaps you're just looking in the wrong place. The music industry has changed enormously in the last half-century. Independent music (of all kinds) has never been more diverse or more accessible. That's where the exciting stuff happens. You're not going to get it from major labels or the radio.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:09 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Music derives meaning, in large part, in relation to the surrounding culture. And culture changes. It's changed a lot since the 60s and 70s. And so the music of the 60s and 70s doesn't necessarily have much relevance in the the context of today's culture. And maybe we need new kinds of music that does.
That is, I would argue, exactly why we do have new kinds of music: every generation of musicians strives to express themselves in ways that are relevant to, and which respond meaningfully to, their own lived experience. Perhaps some of those who fail to appreciate newer music simply haven't kept up with those broader cultural changes.
There just isn't very much of it.
If you're looking to pop music and the Top 40 for the most vital music in 2016, perhaps you're just looking in the wrong place. The music industry has changed enormously in the last half-century. Independent music (of all kinds) has never been more diverse or more accessible. That's where the exciting stuff happens. You're not going to get it from major labels or the radio.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:09 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
It was my understanding that in big pop, everything has been going through Auto-tune for a while now, including all the guitars,
There is a lot of misunderstanding about these things. Auto Tune is a tool, one of many computer based tools for recording, and nearly all recording is computer based. How good or bad it sounds is up to the skill and taste of user, not the tool. When you hear that Auto Tune effect on songs it’s being deliberately misused to get that sound, that’s not just what it does naturally. The name is misleading; it has an "auto" mode that you run things through, but it also has a manual mode to fine tune things, that’s what’s used in the better instances. Auto Tune is used to some extent on the majority of records.
There are other methods for tuning instruments in recording, there always have been, they are just even more meticulous and time consuming. In the old days you might have sang that one word 100 times until you hit it, and used the one in tune even if it wasn’t the most appealing one. Musicians love these tools because of this, if you’ve ever sat and played the same part for hours on end you would too. The modern computer based methods just allow more control and are faster and easier. But they do get over used, it’s sort of like how the computer was supposed to eliminate paperwork and shorten office hours, but instead you just spend more time doing more work because you can.
There is no magic box that everything is run through. Auto Tune is not used for guitars generally, it only works only in very limited circumstances. They have a Auto Tune for guitars now, but it keeps things in tune, it doesn’t make you play better (and is meant for live performance, in the studio you can just tune the guitar).
Nearly all records made today, the folk singer, the dub step track, the ones that are cheesy and the ones that are "authentic", are made using the same recording tools. It’s the people using the tools who are responsible for the sound. There are some tools that have "automatic" modes, but those are mostly meant for amateurs working at home who don’t want to learn all the details of music production. When they are used on records it’s because the producers
1. Have no skills
2. Have no taste
3. Are lazy
4. Deliberately want that sound, even if it is cheesy, which is a totally valid position.
It’s not the tools. It’s like saying web sites are bloated and ridiculous because of whatever tool people use to make web sites.
posted by bongo_x at 12:13 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
There is a lot of misunderstanding about these things. Auto Tune is a tool, one of many computer based tools for recording, and nearly all recording is computer based. How good or bad it sounds is up to the skill and taste of user, not the tool. When you hear that Auto Tune effect on songs it’s being deliberately misused to get that sound, that’s not just what it does naturally. The name is misleading; it has an "auto" mode that you run things through, but it also has a manual mode to fine tune things, that’s what’s used in the better instances. Auto Tune is used to some extent on the majority of records.
There are other methods for tuning instruments in recording, there always have been, they are just even more meticulous and time consuming. In the old days you might have sang that one word 100 times until you hit it, and used the one in tune even if it wasn’t the most appealing one. Musicians love these tools because of this, if you’ve ever sat and played the same part for hours on end you would too. The modern computer based methods just allow more control and are faster and easier. But they do get over used, it’s sort of like how the computer was supposed to eliminate paperwork and shorten office hours, but instead you just spend more time doing more work because you can.
There is no magic box that everything is run through. Auto Tune is not used for guitars generally, it only works only in very limited circumstances. They have a Auto Tune for guitars now, but it keeps things in tune, it doesn’t make you play better (and is meant for live performance, in the studio you can just tune the guitar).
Nearly all records made today, the folk singer, the dub step track, the ones that are cheesy and the ones that are "authentic", are made using the same recording tools. It’s the people using the tools who are responsible for the sound. There are some tools that have "automatic" modes, but those are mostly meant for amateurs working at home who don’t want to learn all the details of music production. When they are used on records it’s because the producers
1. Have no skills
2. Have no taste
3. Are lazy
4. Deliberately want that sound, even if it is cheesy, which is a totally valid position.
It’s not the tools. It’s like saying web sites are bloated and ridiculous because of whatever tool people use to make web sites.
posted by bongo_x at 12:13 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
It’s like saying web sites are bloated and ridiculous because of whatever tool people use to make web sites.
While I totally respect what you are saying with the rest of your statement, I do want to point to FrontPage and say... "um... yes, that is what happened there, for a while".
posted by hippybear at 12:17 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
While I totally respect what you are saying with the rest of your statement, I do want to point to FrontPage and say... "um... yes, that is what happened there, for a while".
posted by hippybear at 12:17 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you're looking to pop music and the Top 40 for the most vital music in 2016, perhaps you're just looking in the wrong place. The music industry has changed enormously in the last half-century. Independent music (of all kinds) has never been more diverse or more accessible. That's where the exciting stuff happens. You're not going to get it from major labels or the radio.
in my experience, this is more or less true from about 1980 onward, certainly from the mid-80s which is when the various independent distribution streams (and related cool record stores and campus and/or community radio stations) were really starting to make an impact (on me anyway). Which isn't to say there haven't been occasional phases (my inner cynic thinks of them as corporate mistakes) when the big deal pop hits have actually been pretty damned strong.
posted by philip-random at 12:24 PM on February 21, 2016
in my experience, this is more or less true from about 1980 onward, certainly from the mid-80s which is when the various independent distribution streams (and related cool record stores and campus and/or community radio stations) were really starting to make an impact (on me anyway). Which isn't to say there haven't been occasional phases (my inner cynic thinks of them as corporate mistakes) when the big deal pop hits have actually been pretty damned strong.
posted by philip-random at 12:24 PM on February 21, 2016
hippybear;
I don’t know anything about web design, but I think that’s what I’m saying; This program makes it easy to pump out a bloated mess, and the other big players are doing it, so I’m just going to do that.
posted by bongo_x at 12:24 PM on February 21, 2016
I don’t know anything about web design, but I think that’s what I’m saying; This program makes it easy to pump out a bloated mess, and the other big players are doing it, so I’m just going to do that.
posted by bongo_x at 12:24 PM on February 21, 2016
The Beatles were groundbreaking—half a century ago. I want to hear music that's groundbreaking today.
Clearly the people who continue to enjoy the Beatles today are people who find that there are other satisfying pleasures to be had from music besides groundbreaking novelty.
posted by straight at 12:26 PM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
Clearly the people who continue to enjoy the Beatles today are people who find that there are other satisfying pleasures to be had from music besides groundbreaking novelty.
posted by straight at 12:26 PM on February 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
Take a look at the classical music establishment to see where slavish devotion to the "masters of the past" gets you.
A cornucopia of fantastic recordings of great music performed at levels of technical and musical excellence the composers could hardly have dreamed of? It's just as much a golden age for lovers of classical music as it is for fans of any other kind of music.
posted by straight at 12:30 PM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
A cornucopia of fantastic recordings of great music performed at levels of technical and musical excellence the composers could hardly have dreamed of? It's just as much a golden age for lovers of classical music as it is for fans of any other kind of music.
posted by straight at 12:30 PM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, now I've got "It Ain't What You Do" running between my ears. That's better.
posted by Trochanter at 12:39 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Trochanter at 12:39 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fifty years of turning on the radio to hear "Sweet Home Alabama" followed by Foghat has left its marks.
Foghat on the radio? As someone from the demographic valley between Boomers and Xers, I have certainly never heard such a thing. (Not that I'd want to, though I have cousins who would have.)
That said, I have mostly stayed out of this thread, stunned again by the virulent ageist aggression that MeFi can occasionally spin up out of trivial discussions.
posted by aught at 12:44 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Foghat on the radio? As someone from the demographic valley between Boomers and Xers, I have certainly never heard such a thing. (Not that I'd want to, though I have cousins who would have.)
That said, I have mostly stayed out of this thread, stunned again by the virulent ageist aggression that MeFi can occasionally spin up out of trivial discussions.
posted by aught at 12:44 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Rock'n'roll's been going downhill ever since Buddy Holly died.
posted by Devoidoid at 12:53 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Devoidoid at 12:53 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
We are awash in a vast sea of music thanks to digital distribution and the ease of recording. Some great, some awful, some indescribable. I despair of keeping abreast of it or knowing what any trends are. I'm not really concerned with keeping up with the stuff that gets on the Grammys/corporate radio. Aside from the pop hits and country stations, corporate radio appears to not have changed their playlist in 20 years and it's distressing if only because I wouldn't mind hearing a different Pink Floyd/Wings/Stevie Wonder song instead of the same damn one every time.
So instead I have been enjoying our new, tiny, all-local-music radio station, because I had no idea there was so much talent (and a fair amount of weirdness) in my immediate vicinity. In general, I listen to that, stuff I already know, and the (often good, sometimes terrible) stuff they play on the Sirius XM Kid's station because my kid's in the car. And that's all the time I have in a given day.
I will always love Motown and any and all 70s funk because I am utterly seduced by good bass lines. The Beatles are still so omnipresent that I can't really know if I like them or not. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. I will dance to anything with a decent beat and love any song that astonishes me or touches me, and I don't care where it comes from.
posted by emjaybee at 12:56 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
So instead I have been enjoying our new, tiny, all-local-music radio station, because I had no idea there was so much talent (and a fair amount of weirdness) in my immediate vicinity. In general, I listen to that, stuff I already know, and the (often good, sometimes terrible) stuff they play on the Sirius XM Kid's station because my kid's in the car. And that's all the time I have in a given day.
I will always love Motown and any and all 70s funk because I am utterly seduced by good bass lines. The Beatles are still so omnipresent that I can't really know if I like them or not. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. I will dance to anything with a decent beat and love any song that astonishes me or touches me, and I don't care where it comes from.
posted by emjaybee at 12:56 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
stunned again by the virulent ageist aggression that MeFi can occasionally spin up out of trivial discussions.
I'm technically a boomer, though I was born late enough in the boom (1959) to have an at best bemused take on its various canonical items. Or put it this way. Much as I can love me some Beatles and Beach Boys and Supremes, the likes of Alice Cooper, Yes and Jethro Tull had a far greater impact on me in my coming-of-age years ... not to mention the various punk and new wave eruptions of the later 1970s. Indeed, I can spew some of that anti-boomer virulence myself (in my sleep as a matter of fact) -- not just because they're older than me and going to seed but because they really have been hogging the zeitgeist my whole life, and way too often shoving genuinely beautiful stuff aside because ... well, things were just better before.
posted by philip-random at 12:58 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm technically a boomer, though I was born late enough in the boom (1959) to have an at best bemused take on its various canonical items. Or put it this way. Much as I can love me some Beatles and Beach Boys and Supremes, the likes of Alice Cooper, Yes and Jethro Tull had a far greater impact on me in my coming-of-age years ... not to mention the various punk and new wave eruptions of the later 1970s. Indeed, I can spew some of that anti-boomer virulence myself (in my sleep as a matter of fact) -- not just because they're older than me and going to seed but because they really have been hogging the zeitgeist my whole life, and way too often shoving genuinely beautiful stuff aside because ... well, things were just better before.
posted by philip-random at 12:58 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's probably already been said, but i think we reached a point of homeostasis a couple years back where saying "the beatles are overrated" or "people who say the beatles are the best band ever are dumb" is as eye roll inducing as the actual original eye-roll opinions.
Probably true, but I'm still holding out for that same inflection point re skepticism for the Beatles-loving music theory dilettantes who did a brief survey of Common Practice-era theory, realized they had all the tools necessary to begin their project of imbuing the Beatles with the elite-culture prestige of Western classical music, and pretty much stopped there.
posted by invitapriore at 12:59 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Probably true, but I'm still holding out for that same inflection point re skepticism for the Beatles-loving music theory dilettantes who did a brief survey of Common Practice-era theory, realized they had all the tools necessary to begin their project of imbuing the Beatles with the elite-culture prestige of Western classical music, and pretty much stopped there.
posted by invitapriore at 12:59 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, Schenker laughs at the trivialities we're calling "deep structure" here, which makes me wonder if there's ever been an appeal towards the primacy of abstraction over "surface level" characteristics that didn't have some weird conservative cultural-aesthetic agenda underlying it.
posted by invitapriore at 1:02 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by invitapriore at 1:02 PM on February 21, 2016
Anyway, I'm going to go put on some M.I.A. to wash the taste of this thread out of my mouth. New music is great!
posted by invitapriore at 1:04 PM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by invitapriore at 1:04 PM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I do think that musical concepts such as 'tonal centre' are just as relevant to analysing pop styles as any other type of music - perhaps more so, since now we have a situation where if you strip out the production effects, pop and EDM styles are often more tonally conservative than either modern classical or modern jazz styles.
Sure. I guess my perspective is that in cases where harmony and even melody have been resuced to the barest minimum - a single looping sequence throughout an entire song - texture and timbre are doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Rhythm is too but I think that a lot of music in the last 25 years can't be understood without focusing on how the sounds are developing.
posted by atoxyl at 1:12 PM on February 21, 2016
Sure. I guess my perspective is that in cases where harmony and even melody have been resuced to the barest minimum - a single looping sequence throughout an entire song - texture and timbre are doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Rhythm is too but I think that a lot of music in the last 25 years can't be understood without focusing on how the sounds are developing.
posted by atoxyl at 1:12 PM on February 21, 2016
Apropos of why (or how) this music stuff matters so much to us, an NYT report on a recent finding that there's an area of the brain dedicated to music.
posted by emmet at 1:13 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by emmet at 1:13 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Beatles-loving music theory dilettantes
That's me nailed for sure :-), but I still think it's OK to talk about music in different ways and to try to approach the 'canon of rock' with tools other than those used by music journalists - and those might include Schenkerian-style analysis even in amateur hands. I'd love to hear why you think he'd laugh at the Beatles' deep structures.
And although I'm sure M.I.A. is rocking, there is some Beatles scholarship around the dialogue they had with women's experience of musical subjectivity (e.g. Sheila Whitely) and also the race-specific elements of their early musical experience and appropriation in late-50s Liverpool (including not just black artists from America but also Liverpool black artists like Derry and the Seniors).
posted by colie at 1:14 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's me nailed for sure :-), but I still think it's OK to talk about music in different ways and to try to approach the 'canon of rock' with tools other than those used by music journalists - and those might include Schenkerian-style analysis even in amateur hands. I'd love to hear why you think he'd laugh at the Beatles' deep structures.
And although I'm sure M.I.A. is rocking, there is some Beatles scholarship around the dialogue they had with women's experience of musical subjectivity (e.g. Sheila Whitely) and also the race-specific elements of their early musical experience and appropriation in late-50s Liverpool (including not just black artists from America but also Liverpool black artists like Derry and the Seniors).
posted by colie at 1:14 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's just as much a golden age for lovers of classical music as it is for fans of any other kind of music.
Not so much for composers.
Meanwhile, Schenker laughs at the trivialities we're calling "deep structure" here, which makes me wonder if there's ever been an appeal towards the primacy of abstraction over "surface level" characteristics that didn't have some weird conservative cultural-aesthetic agenda underlying it.
And Bartok cheers the triumph of the folk aesthetic. You can blame Milton "Who cares if you listen?" Babbitt and his ilk for helping to decimate the audience for "sophisticated" music. Also you are clearly not listening to Maxo, Absrdst or Vektroid.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:23 PM on February 21, 2016
Not so much for composers.
Meanwhile, Schenker laughs at the trivialities we're calling "deep structure" here, which makes me wonder if there's ever been an appeal towards the primacy of abstraction over "surface level" characteristics that didn't have some weird conservative cultural-aesthetic agenda underlying it.
And Bartok cheers the triumph of the folk aesthetic. You can blame Milton "Who cares if you listen?" Babbitt and his ilk for helping to decimate the audience for "sophisticated" music. Also you are clearly not listening to Maxo, Absrdst or Vektroid.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:23 PM on February 21, 2016
That's me nailed for sure :-), but I still think it's OK to talk about music in different ways and to try to approach the 'canon of rock' with tools other than those used by music journalists - and those might include Schenkerian-style analysis even in amateur hands.
I'm all for taking on as many analytic modes as you can bear in talking about music, but what I see here is music theory being used as crutch and cudgel -- one merely need abstract away surface level details and focus on the tonal content to see that modern music doesn't innovate -- all the while failing to realize that you've abstracted away the most important details precisely because you're favoring that one particular theoretical lens.
I'd love to hear why you think he'd laugh at the Beatles' deep structures.
I meant that he would probably regard e.g. ending on a deceptive cadence to the vi as itself a surface-level detail with respect to the elaboration of the Ursatz.
posted by invitapriore at 1:24 PM on February 21, 2016
I'm all for taking on as many analytic modes as you can bear in talking about music, but what I see here is music theory being used as crutch and cudgel -- one merely need abstract away surface level details and focus on the tonal content to see that modern music doesn't innovate -- all the while failing to realize that you've abstracted away the most important details precisely because you're favoring that one particular theoretical lens.
I'd love to hear why you think he'd laugh at the Beatles' deep structures.
I meant that he would probably regard e.g. ending on a deceptive cadence to the vi as itself a surface-level detail with respect to the elaboration of the Ursatz.
posted by invitapriore at 1:24 PM on February 21, 2016
one merely need abstract away surface level details and focus on the tonal content to see that modern music doesn't innovate
And here the bias is revealed. To say that tonal innovation is not musical innovation is absurd. Your statement reminds me of a grad student who, while listening to some electronic ambient mudic, opined that "real music [was] composed, not programmed."
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:29 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
And here the bias is revealed. To say that tonal innovation is not musical innovation is absurd. Your statement reminds me of a grad student who, while listening to some electronic ambient mudic, opined that "real music [was] composed, not programmed."
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:29 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I find the rhetoric that somehow liking the Beatles and Taylor Swift and Toad the Wet Sprocket and Beyoncé and Silk Road and Tapping the Vein and Abney Park are somehow mutually exclusive to be incredibly confusing - and I really don't get the hatred between genres, and fans of genres, that exists.
I read this article as an argument against the sort of senseless, knee-jerk dismissal of musical genres which seems so endemic to... well... everywhere. I'm on board with that.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:30 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I read this article as an argument against the sort of senseless, knee-jerk dismissal of musical genres which seems so endemic to... well... everywhere. I'm on board with that.
posted by Deoridhe at 1:30 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
one merely need abstract away surface level details and focus on the tonal content to see that modern music doesn't innovateAnd here the bias is revealed. To say that tonal innovation is not musical innovation is absurd. Your statement reminds me of a grad student who, while listening to some electtonic ambient mudic, opined that "real music [was] composed, not programmed."
The sentence you quote was meant as an expression of exactly the sentiment I disagree with, which I thought was clear enough in context. I also think you're misunderstanding the sense of "tonal," by which I mean pitch- and key-centric content, not timbre.
posted by invitapriore at 1:32 PM on February 21, 2016
Also I think you meant Milton "The Composer as Specialist Who cares if you listen? [ -- Ed.]" Babbitt.
posted by invitapriore at 1:36 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by invitapriore at 1:36 PM on February 21, 2016
[Schenker] would probably regard e.g. ending on a deceptive cadence to the vi as itself a surface-level detail with respect to the elaboration of the Ersatz.
Sure, but that was mentioned regarding the general importing of novel cadences into pop for the first time - some of which M.I.A might or might not be using? There are plenty of Schenkerian reductions of Beatles' songs that are no more or less worthy than similar reductions of European art music.
posted by colie at 1:36 PM on February 21, 2016
Sure, but that was mentioned regarding the general importing of novel cadences into pop for the first time - some of which M.I.A might or might not be using? There are plenty of Schenkerian reductions of Beatles' songs that are no more or less worthy than similar reductions of European art music.
posted by colie at 1:36 PM on February 21, 2016
What I meant was that timbral innovation is musical innovation. Have no fear, we still disagree.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:37 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:37 PM on February 21, 2016
...my point is that however you want to set the divide between "surface level" and "deep structure," some other asshole will come along and tell you that you're focussing on trivialities and the real structure is one level deeper. I don't think it's a sustainable aesthetic guideline.
What I meant was that timbral innovation is musical innovation.
that's exactly what I've been saying
posted by invitapriore at 1:38 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
What I meant was that timbral innovation is musical innovation.
that's exactly what I've been saying
posted by invitapriore at 1:38 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess we do agree! My apologies for being dense.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:42 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:42 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Music is just one fucking note after another, except for that John Cage song. Now THAT was catchy. You don't not hear music like that nowadays - young people just don't know what they're not missing. This joke is also an old classic from 1972 - but kids today just look at me like I'm some pathetic, drunken naked bum who is covered in vomit and screaming while lying in this gutter, and also I just urinated over myself. The wifi coverage is pretty good here, though - just the thing for surfing MeFi! No but seriously, a raccoon took my pants.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:44 PM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:44 PM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
tell you that you're focussing on trivialities and the real structure is one level deeper.
Perhaps the search for 'deeper' structures is rewarding in itself. Don't people do this with maths, and language, and cosmic string theory?
posted by colie at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2016
Perhaps the search for 'deeper' structures is rewarding in itself. Don't people do this with maths, and language, and cosmic string theory?
posted by colie at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2016
The ability to discover new (both in the "previously unheard by my ears" and in the "just released, BOOM" senses) music is so many universes better than it was when I was desperately rooting around vinyl and CD bins in used record stores back in the Cenozoic Olden Times that I have a really hard time remembering how horribly hard it was back then to find new music that I actually liked -- all those dollars spent on albums that had one decent song, all that time spent looking for the one track on that other album I heard at a club or in a bar that actually didn't sound as good at all when I got it home and listened to it a second time, all those armloads of crappy, boring, crappy CDs that I carted off to trade at those selfsame used record stores, all those sacred music-critic gatekeeper opinions about What Was Good Music that were mostly stupid unmitigated bullshit.
The vicious tribalization and segmentation now around music and old/new and other pointless dichotomies is incredibly demoralizing, shaming, and exhausting, which is why I mostly keep my musical opinions to myself, not that anybody cares about them anyway. But I love discovering new music of almost all "genres" and always will -- whether that's new old music that I'd never heard or had the opportunity to find when I was younger, or whether that's actually new-new music that I like even though it somehow isn't really all that cool or kosher for an old-timer like me to be appreciating it.
posted by blucevalo at 1:52 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
The vicious tribalization and segmentation now around music and old/new and other pointless dichotomies is incredibly demoralizing, shaming, and exhausting, which is why I mostly keep my musical opinions to myself, not that anybody cares about them anyway. But I love discovering new music of almost all "genres" and always will -- whether that's new old music that I'd never heard or had the opportunity to find when I was younger, or whether that's actually new-new music that I like even though it somehow isn't really all that cool or kosher for an old-timer like me to be appreciating it.
posted by blucevalo at 1:52 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Clearly the people who continue to enjoy the Beatles today are people who find that there are other satisfying pleasures to be had from music besides groundbreaking novelty.
Hardy har.
I think the value one puts on musical "novelty", as you characterize it, has much to do with the extent to which one believes that music is, or ought to be, an implicitly or explicitly political act or statement.
I tend to believe that it is. And I'm not talking about protest songs or punk rockers shouting "fuck the system"—although those certainly exist, too. What I mean is: aesthetic forms don't exist in a vacuum. They're associated with value systems, identities, political interests, acceptance or rejection of various norms, etc.
And so, to embrace / challenge / comment upon / reject a particular aesthetic form is to embrace / challenge / comment upon / reject the political sensibilities that it symbolizes. Consider: Thomas Kinkade. Anthrax collaborating with Public Enemy. The Dadaists and Surrealists. House music's role in the gay culture of the 80s and 90s. Mainstream country music. Modernist architecture. Romantic classical music. All of these have meanings that go beyond the surface aesthetics. They are all, in varying ways, statements of particular beliefs, value systems, allegiances, and antagonisms.
If you accept this reasoning—and are of a progressive mindset—then having a primary and immediate interest in the aesthetic forms that are on the front lines of the battle, so to speak, suddenly makes perfect sense. After all, activists working on racial issues in 2016 aren't busy boycotting buses in Alabama. That battle has already been won—and while we might have a deep respect for the people who fought it, and think it important to remember that history, we aren't going to re-enact the past ad infinitum. We're going to move on to the battles that have yet to be won.
Which is not to say that all music comments on political issues as important or complex as race in the United States, or comments directly. But it does all comment, whether it means to or not. Even to abstain from commentary is to implicitly accept the established order.
It's certainly not my place to say that this is the right lens to view music through. And yeah, this is all a bit abstract—can we really say that all music is political? Even if so, can we really say that this political-expression-through-music has any real-world consequence? You might think not, and that's fair. But for me, this is a fundamental part of the way I approach music. I will certainly revisit the music of old battles, and I'll certainly study the broader history for the sake of learning from the past—but the music that's most important and visceral to me will always be the stuff that's fighting here and now.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:22 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hardy har.
I think the value one puts on musical "novelty", as you characterize it, has much to do with the extent to which one believes that music is, or ought to be, an implicitly or explicitly political act or statement.
I tend to believe that it is. And I'm not talking about protest songs or punk rockers shouting "fuck the system"—although those certainly exist, too. What I mean is: aesthetic forms don't exist in a vacuum. They're associated with value systems, identities, political interests, acceptance or rejection of various norms, etc.
And so, to embrace / challenge / comment upon / reject a particular aesthetic form is to embrace / challenge / comment upon / reject the political sensibilities that it symbolizes. Consider: Thomas Kinkade. Anthrax collaborating with Public Enemy. The Dadaists and Surrealists. House music's role in the gay culture of the 80s and 90s. Mainstream country music. Modernist architecture. Romantic classical music. All of these have meanings that go beyond the surface aesthetics. They are all, in varying ways, statements of particular beliefs, value systems, allegiances, and antagonisms.
If you accept this reasoning—and are of a progressive mindset—then having a primary and immediate interest in the aesthetic forms that are on the front lines of the battle, so to speak, suddenly makes perfect sense. After all, activists working on racial issues in 2016 aren't busy boycotting buses in Alabama. That battle has already been won—and while we might have a deep respect for the people who fought it, and think it important to remember that history, we aren't going to re-enact the past ad infinitum. We're going to move on to the battles that have yet to be won.
Which is not to say that all music comments on political issues as important or complex as race in the United States, or comments directly. But it does all comment, whether it means to or not. Even to abstain from commentary is to implicitly accept the established order.
It's certainly not my place to say that this is the right lens to view music through. And yeah, this is all a bit abstract—can we really say that all music is political? Even if so, can we really say that this political-expression-through-music has any real-world consequence? You might think not, and that's fair. But for me, this is a fundamental part of the way I approach music. I will certainly revisit the music of old battles, and I'll certainly study the broader history for the sake of learning from the past—but the music that's most important and visceral to me will always be the stuff that's fighting here and now.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:22 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
—can we really say that all music is political?
reminds me of a Joe Strummer comment from back in the day -- that Duran Duran were every bit as political as The Clash, they were just arguing for the status quo (or words to that effect).
posted by philip-random at 2:28 PM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
reminds me of a Joe Strummer comment from back in the day -- that Duran Duran were every bit as political as The Clash, they were just arguing for the status quo (or words to that effect).
posted by philip-random at 2:28 PM on February 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
escape from the potato planet: I don't think many of the people who yawn at The Beatles today are incensed by their role as the Justin Biebers of 1963. For me, it's like this: I acknowledge that The Beatles were hugely innovative and influential. Had I been around at the time, and of a receptive demographic and mindset, perhaps they would have blown my mind. But I wasn't around at the time, so all of this is historical to me. I grew up in a world where The Beatles had long since come and gone. Before I was even born—let alone before I started taking a serious interest in music—their influence had already been thoroughly absorbed into popular music, and many, many layers had been built on top of it, and many of those layers had come and gone. (And many other artists had introduced their own, independent innovations.) So I can acknowledge the historical importance of The Beatles, without actually finding anything exciting about their music. Because I've heard it all a thousand times before, in a thousand different permutations, and elaborated to every imaginable extreme and beyond.
And, you know, I have no real problem with that. As I noted above, I may feel sorry for people who can't appreciate them the way I do, just as, I'm sure, people feel sorry for me because I don't dig Taylor Swift or Kanye, but I understand your point about their having faded to musical background radiation. That isn't true for Fusilli, though, nor is it for the other critic that I linked.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:30 PM on February 21, 2016
And, you know, I have no real problem with that. As I noted above, I may feel sorry for people who can't appreciate them the way I do, just as, I'm sure, people feel sorry for me because I don't dig Taylor Swift or Kanye, but I understand your point about their having faded to musical background radiation. That isn't true for Fusilli, though, nor is it for the other critic that I linked.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:30 PM on February 21, 2016
I'm reminded of an NPR interview with neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky (which I just realized I heard 10 years ago, oh my god) that dovetails with yueliang's articles linked above, that explains that basically, the aging brain just doesn't get the same kick out of new, variable musics that it used to and seeks comfort in the stuff it's familiar with. Hence the "music used to be better in my day" mentality.
As the other articles flesh out, it has to do with a decrease in dopamine in the aging brain, which leads to less novelty-seeking, plus as others have mentioned, life and other things increase demand on attention and time. So, while I wasn't exactly distraught over it, it's nice to be able to forgive myself for being more slow-paced in my discovery of new music than I once was.
All of which makes me endlessly grateful for MetaFilter for keeping my brain plugged into exciting new things to try out and think about- even if I never get around to them- like this post, the thoughtful commentary, Courtney Barnett (who is awesome, but I realized I enjoy precisely because she seems to exude a 90s sound), to being turned on to Spotify's weekly roundup.
I'm actually getting a little misty writing all this (thanks to my aging noodle) so just wanted to say, hey, thanks MetaFilter, for being my brain haven, community, and bubbling cauldron of new ideas!
posted by Queen of Spreadable Fats at 2:47 PM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
As the other articles flesh out, it has to do with a decrease in dopamine in the aging brain, which leads to less novelty-seeking, plus as others have mentioned, life and other things increase demand on attention and time. So, while I wasn't exactly distraught over it, it's nice to be able to forgive myself for being more slow-paced in my discovery of new music than I once was.
All of which makes me endlessly grateful for MetaFilter for keeping my brain plugged into exciting new things to try out and think about- even if I never get around to them- like this post, the thoughtful commentary, Courtney Barnett (who is awesome, but I realized I enjoy precisely because she seems to exude a 90s sound), to being turned on to Spotify's weekly roundup.
I'm actually getting a little misty writing all this (thanks to my aging noodle) so just wanted to say, hey, thanks MetaFilter, for being my brain haven, community, and bubbling cauldron of new ideas!
posted by Queen of Spreadable Fats at 2:47 PM on February 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
I try avoid discussions like this because they touch upon so many issues around personal taste, and for people who don't make a habit of questioning their tastes it's often fraught.
A lot of the discussion in this thread is focused on such obvious stuff - The Beatles, Dylan, Nirvana, etc. Some of that reflects their success, and some of that reflects the participants. I tried to get into Dylan this year, but I got sidetracked by P.F. Sloan.
I'm 33 and I buy lots of semi-obscure/obscure records from the 60s because I genuinely love how stuff sounded back then, but I also question if this is a by-product of being a child of the 80s when the first wave of 60s nostalgia hit. I also grew up thinking the Beatles were an OK band and the Kinks were much more popular, which lead to a school yard fight. I think from that point on, I've been on the curious path of digging deep but looking forward and backward. I also learned around this time that most people don't engage with music in this way.
It takes work to stay up with music, but with Pandora/Spotify/Pitchfork/Brooklyn Vegan/etc it's much easier to be on top of things, but I think it's harder for people to be exposed to really new things, but I think most people are fine with that. Some of it is human nature, and I think some of it is that whole aspect of taste. It's nice to know that if you like something it's been deemed cool, but that is effort and it's easier to stay with the familiar or safely approved. I don't expect people to be on top of everything, but it does get old when people say there's no good music today or that it was so much better back in the day. I came up in the 90s garage rock revival and I guess the golden era of pop-punk; and while The Hi-Fives will always be my favourite band, I'm not foolish enough to say it's been all down hill from here. Right now I'm listening to Shannon and the Clams playing live on KALX and it's really wonderful. I wish everybody knew about them, and I would say they're probably pretty well known but then again I live and die by college radio.
posted by kendrak at 2:51 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
A lot of the discussion in this thread is focused on such obvious stuff - The Beatles, Dylan, Nirvana, etc. Some of that reflects their success, and some of that reflects the participants. I tried to get into Dylan this year, but I got sidetracked by P.F. Sloan.
I'm 33 and I buy lots of semi-obscure/obscure records from the 60s because I genuinely love how stuff sounded back then, but I also question if this is a by-product of being a child of the 80s when the first wave of 60s nostalgia hit. I also grew up thinking the Beatles were an OK band and the Kinks were much more popular, which lead to a school yard fight. I think from that point on, I've been on the curious path of digging deep but looking forward and backward. I also learned around this time that most people don't engage with music in this way.
It takes work to stay up with music, but with Pandora/Spotify/Pitchfork/Brooklyn Vegan/etc it's much easier to be on top of things, but I think it's harder for people to be exposed to really new things, but I think most people are fine with that. Some of it is human nature, and I think some of it is that whole aspect of taste. It's nice to know that if you like something it's been deemed cool, but that is effort and it's easier to stay with the familiar or safely approved. I don't expect people to be on top of everything, but it does get old when people say there's no good music today or that it was so much better back in the day. I came up in the 90s garage rock revival and I guess the golden era of pop-punk; and while The Hi-Fives will always be my favourite band, I'm not foolish enough to say it's been all down hill from here. Right now I'm listening to Shannon and the Clams playing live on KALX and it's really wonderful. I wish everybody knew about them, and I would say they're probably pretty well known but then again I live and die by college radio.
posted by kendrak at 2:51 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Have we gotten to the part of the thread where we start dropping recipes awesome newer music with links yet?
Aurora - Norwegian, amazing voice. Saw her perform at YouTube a few months ago and was pretty amazed.
Fantastic Negrito - Imagine Screaming Jay Hawkins reincarnated in Oakland.
California Honeydrops - Amazing Oakland funk/soul band. (Main link is a Wilson Pickett cover, which just captures their live flavour incredibly well; here's my favorite of their originals.)
Budos Band - Afrobeat/Ethiojazz band that has taken on a particularly metal flavour in recent years. Yeah, that's right: Metal meets jazz.
Nathaniel Rateliff - Already mentioned upthread somewhere, but hella fun old-timey-sounding stuff.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:52 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Aurora - Norwegian, amazing voice. Saw her perform at YouTube a few months ago and was pretty amazed.
Fantastic Negrito - Imagine Screaming Jay Hawkins reincarnated in Oakland.
California Honeydrops - Amazing Oakland funk/soul band. (Main link is a Wilson Pickett cover, which just captures their live flavour incredibly well; here's my favorite of their originals.)
Budos Band - Afrobeat/Ethiojazz band that has taken on a particularly metal flavour in recent years. Yeah, that's right: Metal meets jazz.
Nathaniel Rateliff - Already mentioned upthread somewhere, but hella fun old-timey-sounding stuff.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:52 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think the value one puts on musical "novelty", as you characterize it, has much to do with the extent to which one believes that music is, or ought to be, an implicitly or explicitly political act or statement.
I think the value I put on musical novelty comes from my inbuilt human tendency to find novel things stimulating.
posted by atoxyl at 2:56 PM on February 21, 2016
I think the value I put on musical novelty comes from my inbuilt human tendency to find novel things stimulating.
posted by atoxyl at 2:56 PM on February 21, 2016
Budos Band is excellent. They've incorporated metal?! Must check this out; thanks.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:57 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:57 PM on February 21, 2016
If we're going to recommend good, current music:
Tanya Tagaq performing in acceptance of the 2014 Polaris Music Prize. I learned about her through MetaFilter, and this video is one of my top musical moments of the last two years. Jaw-dropping.
Föllakzoid are a stupendous Krautrock group from Chile.
The Kilimanjaro Darkjazz Ensemble incorporate electric jazz with electronic / ambient / noise music.
Zoë Keating plays cello and electronics, sampling / looping / transforming her own performance on the fly.
Kangding Ray has been an amazing voice in minimal techno lately, pushing the sound into wonderfully expressive, experimental, organic directions.
Bohren & der Club of Gore are, like, slowcore ambient jazz.
Vatican Shadow is today's Muslimgauze (but with a sound all his own).
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:19 PM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
Tanya Tagaq performing in acceptance of the 2014 Polaris Music Prize. I learned about her through MetaFilter, and this video is one of my top musical moments of the last two years. Jaw-dropping.
Föllakzoid are a stupendous Krautrock group from Chile.
The Kilimanjaro Darkjazz Ensemble incorporate electric jazz with electronic / ambient / noise music.
Zoë Keating plays cello and electronics, sampling / looping / transforming her own performance on the fly.
Kangding Ray has been an amazing voice in minimal techno lately, pushing the sound into wonderfully expressive, experimental, organic directions.
Bohren & der Club of Gore are, like, slowcore ambient jazz.
Vatican Shadow is today's Muslimgauze (but with a sound all his own).
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:19 PM on February 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
Have we gotten to the part of the thread where we start dropping recipes awesome newer music with links yet?
We really live in a miraculous time for new music (well, except maybe for the artists getting paid), and I basically feel bad for people who believe otherwise. In this thread I see a lot of putting the belief before the arguments, and then filling in the gaps with whatever arguments are handy. But really, there is an overwhelming amount of high quality new music of all sorts, genre lines that I'd never dreamed of falling in the 80s/90s have fallen, and access is on a whole new dimension. Weirdly, I think also there's a lot of underestimating of how all music of all times is hugely influenced by what came before it in a fairly continuous way, going back hundreds or perhaps even thousands of years. This isn't actually a problem or meaningful as a complaint about music of time X, because it's never not been true.
In any case, here are some of my very favorite recent things:
Beacon - better or worse (2016)
Junior Boys - Over It (2016)
oneohtrix point never - mutant standard (2015)
floating points - argente (2015)
Nils Frahm - Peter (Clark remix) (2013)
Braids - Sore Eyes (2015) (here's a live version)
Todd Terje - Delorean Dynamite (2014)
posted by advil at 3:25 PM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
We really live in a miraculous time for new music (well, except maybe for the artists getting paid), and I basically feel bad for people who believe otherwise. In this thread I see a lot of putting the belief before the arguments, and then filling in the gaps with whatever arguments are handy. But really, there is an overwhelming amount of high quality new music of all sorts, genre lines that I'd never dreamed of falling in the 80s/90s have fallen, and access is on a whole new dimension. Weirdly, I think also there's a lot of underestimating of how all music of all times is hugely influenced by what came before it in a fairly continuous way, going back hundreds or perhaps even thousands of years. This isn't actually a problem or meaningful as a complaint about music of time X, because it's never not been true.
In any case, here are some of my very favorite recent things:
Beacon - better or worse (2016)
Junior Boys - Over It (2016)
oneohtrix point never - mutant standard (2015)
floating points - argente (2015)
Nils Frahm - Peter (Clark remix) (2013)
Braids - Sore Eyes (2015) (here's a live version)
Todd Terje - Delorean Dynamite (2014)
posted by advil at 3:25 PM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh, and another thing that is really, really different that I think is being missed in this thread is access to tools for all aspects of music production. As Fusilli eloquently points out:
posted by advil at 3:32 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you listen to “Electric Ladyland,” you don’t complain that Jimi Hendrix was a master of the studio. He and Eddie Kramer were making soundscapes that still sound great today. He didn’t just walk in, plug in, and get that sound. Today, he could do all that stuff by himself in his bedroom. Can you imagine him with the kind of equipment that’s available today? Given his penchant for experimentation? Now, can you imagine him saying, I don’t want to do that because it’s not authentic?I think the consequences of this change have still barely been felt, and it's hard to know exactly what they will be. But it's hard to imagine this is a net negative for music.
posted by advil at 3:32 PM on February 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Actually, that's not true. Much of the "crap" back then was heard, because radio wasn't only playing top 10 hits, it was selecting freely out of the hot 100, which certainly continues today (although mostly it seems to be only the top 20 that gets airplay on a lot of pop stations I encounter these days.)
I agree. There was a lot more diversity of musical styles then than in top 40 radio now. Top 40 radio in the 70's was dominated by pop/bubblegum, but there was also rock, funk, disco, folk, country & strange unclassifiable novelty flukes. Then Burkhart/Abrams killed the fun out of radio as we know it in the 1980's. The entire history of radio as a cultural/music distribution phenomenon in America in the 20th century is really fascinating.
I've thought for a long time that a great set of radio stations would be, alongside the typical "classic rock" station or whatever, would be a "top 50-20" station, that only played songs that just hovered under the top of the charts but were also enough of a hit in their own right. Listening to such a station would be full of moments of "oh, holy crap! I forgot about this song!", and probably a lot of enjoyment as old gems are reintroduced to one's listening repertoire.
Many years ago, there used to be this odd late night show on one of those Golden Oldies nostalgia radio stations where they would just grind through the bottom of the top 100 of various 50's billboard charts in numeric order. There was a lot of fairly generic 50's pop, but mixed with subtle gems and many moments of sheer genius too beautiful to ever hit the top of the charts. It was lovely. It was too good to last.
posted by ovvl at 3:41 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I agree. There was a lot more diversity of musical styles then than in top 40 radio now. Top 40 radio in the 70's was dominated by pop/bubblegum, but there was also rock, funk, disco, folk, country & strange unclassifiable novelty flukes. Then Burkhart/Abrams killed the fun out of radio as we know it in the 1980's. The entire history of radio as a cultural/music distribution phenomenon in America in the 20th century is really fascinating.
I've thought for a long time that a great set of radio stations would be, alongside the typical "classic rock" station or whatever, would be a "top 50-20" station, that only played songs that just hovered under the top of the charts but were also enough of a hit in their own right. Listening to such a station would be full of moments of "oh, holy crap! I forgot about this song!", and probably a lot of enjoyment as old gems are reintroduced to one's listening repertoire.
Many years ago, there used to be this odd late night show on one of those Golden Oldies nostalgia radio stations where they would just grind through the bottom of the top 100 of various 50's billboard charts in numeric order. There was a lot of fairly generic 50's pop, but mixed with subtle gems and many moments of sheer genius too beautiful to ever hit the top of the charts. It was lovely. It was too good to last.
posted by ovvl at 3:41 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, anyone want to place a bet on a contemporary artist they think more of our grandkids will listen to than the Beatles?
Top 40 in the 21st century so far has been dominated by Max & Dr. Luke. They're very talented songwriters, but I don't really love their music. I actually don't like their production style, it seems to sound like they use too much compression for my taste. So we'll have to see about that.
posted by ovvl at 4:12 PM on February 21, 2016
Top 40 in the 21st century so far has been dominated by Max & Dr. Luke. They're very talented songwriters, but I don't really love their music. I actually don't like their production style, it seems to sound like they use too much compression for my taste. So we'll have to see about that.
posted by ovvl at 4:12 PM on February 21, 2016
I don't have too much to contribute to the truly new music recs, but here:
Middday Veil - I Am The War - it's like the soundtrack to an eighties fantasy movie with people galloping on unicorn-back! But it's very good for that sort of thing. They lyrics are...lyrical but also kind of dumb. (Seriously, war is NOT the comfort of the free, Midday Veil lyricist. Go ask someone who is, like, actually in a war zone.) But....well, The Quietus really liked it.
Jaako - Flexible Heart
ANOHNI - 4 degrees
You know, that Courtney Barnett is quite good, but also very like an easier-to-hear Sleaford Mods, but then I also like Sleaford Mods.
Betty and the Werewolves - Should I Go To Glasgow. Admittedly, this is very much in the Shop Assistants vein, but I do like it. Also I do so very much want, myself, to go to Glasgow.
And if you have not listened to Orange Juice's album You Can't Hide Your Love Forever, you must listen to it. An anecdote: Edwyn Collins had a stroke a few years ago - quite young - and at first could only say four things: Yes, No, his wife's name (Grace Maxwell) and 'the possibilities are endless'.
posted by Frowner at 4:15 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Middday Veil - I Am The War - it's like the soundtrack to an eighties fantasy movie with people galloping on unicorn-back! But it's very good for that sort of thing. They lyrics are...lyrical but also kind of dumb. (Seriously, war is NOT the comfort of the free, Midday Veil lyricist. Go ask someone who is, like, actually in a war zone.) But....well, The Quietus really liked it.
Jaako - Flexible Heart
ANOHNI - 4 degrees
You know, that Courtney Barnett is quite good, but also very like an easier-to-hear Sleaford Mods, but then I also like Sleaford Mods.
Betty and the Werewolves - Should I Go To Glasgow. Admittedly, this is very much in the Shop Assistants vein, but I do like it. Also I do so very much want, myself, to go to Glasgow.
And if you have not listened to Orange Juice's album You Can't Hide Your Love Forever, you must listen to it. An anecdote: Edwyn Collins had a stroke a few years ago - quite young - and at first could only say four things: Yes, No, his wife's name (Grace Maxwell) and 'the possibilities are endless'.
posted by Frowner at 4:15 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not so up on contemporary artists, but I kinda like Tame Impala.
posted by ovvl at 4:23 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 4:23 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seen Sylvan Esso three times now. If I've heard of 'em I'm guessing other olds have as well.
posted by sutt at 4:30 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by sutt at 4:30 PM on February 21, 2016
I know many who still listen primarily to what they listened to when they were 12. That's fine. But with Spotify/Apple Music, I have the opportunity to listen to almost any music that has ever been made. Which is just mind boggling. I'm constantly finding new stuff, both contemporary and from long ago. And it makes my life significantly richer. The idea that music was better at some time in the past strikes me as false. At least with rock or hip hop. Perhaps a better case can be made with jazz and classical and blues. I do think of the Beatles as sui generis. But that fact doesn't make the rock music from the 60s better than that today.
posted by persona au gratin at 4:32 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by persona au gratin at 4:32 PM on February 21, 2016
To say a bit more. I can read a book about any time in music history since Haydn, and can hear pretty much anything referenced within 10 seconds. That's thrilling. Younger me is still gobsmacked by this fact. I feel really really fortunate.
posted by persona au gratin at 4:41 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 4:41 PM on February 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you listen to “Electric Ladyland,” you don’t complain that Jimi Hendrix was a master of the studio. He and Eddie Kramer were making soundscapes that still sound great today. He didn’t just walk in, plug in, and get that sound. Today, he could do all that stuff by himself in his bedroom.
That’s one of the other things he said that just wasn’t true (someone else pointed out several).
Hendrix could do something by himself in his bedroom studio, and it would probably be really good, but he couldn’t do that. It’s a different thing.
posted by bongo_x at 4:55 PM on February 21, 2016
That’s one of the other things he said that just wasn’t true (someone else pointed out several).
Hendrix could do something by himself in his bedroom studio, and it would probably be really good, but he couldn’t do that. It’s a different thing.
posted by bongo_x at 4:55 PM on February 21, 2016
He wasn't arguing that Hendrix would create the exact same music if he had access to today's technology. He simply pointed out that Hendrix didn't shy away from the technology that was available to him—in fact, he wholeheartedly embraced it—so why would we expect him to shy away from today's technology? (And why should we?)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:12 PM on February 21, 2016
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:12 PM on February 21, 2016
Gonna drop this phenomenal Teresa Teng song from the early 70s - 海韻 Ocean Rhythm (Live). What's very cool is that her discography is on Spotify and completely remastered, so even people who aren't familiar with wonderful music that is not from the Anglosphere can have contact with it. The internet is great.
posted by yueliang at 7:22 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by yueliang at 7:22 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Concurring with a few of the above:
Budos Band's Burnt Offering was one of my favorite records from 2014. Sabbath meets 70s cop-show funk, plus the album art tops most doom bands.
Bohren und der Club of Gore has different flavors, but Sunset Mission and Black Earth take an almost funeral doom aesthetic and apply it to noir jazz. Perfect rainy day music.
My latest acquisitions that have taken on heavy rotation include:
Ancestral Voices' spooky Night of Visions (previously), ambient electronic drone over ghostly percussion
Cloudkicker, Live With Intronaut, for epic djent-y post metal instrumental anthems
KEN Mode's vicious Entrench, taking the Botch/Converge noisy hardcore game up a few notches of nastiness
and some stuff that's been around a long time, like Peter Murphy's solo work and Oingo Boingo. I picked up Deafheaven's latest too, which is pretty damn good.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:23 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Budos Band's Burnt Offering was one of my favorite records from 2014. Sabbath meets 70s cop-show funk, plus the album art tops most doom bands.
Bohren und der Club of Gore has different flavors, but Sunset Mission and Black Earth take an almost funeral doom aesthetic and apply it to noir jazz. Perfect rainy day music.
My latest acquisitions that have taken on heavy rotation include:
Ancestral Voices' spooky Night of Visions (previously), ambient electronic drone over ghostly percussion
Cloudkicker, Live With Intronaut, for epic djent-y post metal instrumental anthems
KEN Mode's vicious Entrench, taking the Botch/Converge noisy hardcore game up a few notches of nastiness
and some stuff that's been around a long time, like Peter Murphy's solo work and Oingo Boingo. I picked up Deafheaven's latest too, which is pretty damn good.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:23 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the value one puts on musical "novelty", as you characterize it, has much to do with the extent to which one believes that music is, or ought to be, an implicitly or explicitly political act or statement... If you accept this reasoning—and are of a progressive mindset—then having a primary and immediate interest in the aesthetic forms that are on the front lines of the battle, so to speak, suddenly makes perfect sense.
This seems really misguided to me. If you think you can have a revolution that only includes people who dig cutting-edge pop music, then I don't think you're very serious about political change.
If you really want police reform or a guaranteed basic income, you're probably going to need a few Beatles fans on your side.
posted by straight at 7:34 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
This seems really misguided to me. If you think you can have a revolution that only includes people who dig cutting-edge pop music, then I don't think you're very serious about political change.
If you really want police reform or a guaranteed basic income, you're probably going to need a few Beatles fans on your side.
posted by straight at 7:34 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you want police reform or a guaranteed basic income, you're probably going to need a few Beatles fans on your side.
You say you want a revolution? Well, you know... we all want to change the world.
posted by hippybear at 7:36 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
You say you want a revolution? Well, you know... we all want to change the world.
posted by hippybear at 7:36 PM on February 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you think you can have a revolution that only includes people who dig cutting-edge pop music
I don't think that.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:54 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think that.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:54 PM on February 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, I'm confused: has phony Beatlemania, in fact, bitten the dust?
posted by lkc at 9:48 PM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by lkc at 9:48 PM on February 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, phony Beatlemania has been successfully subsumed by authentic Bieber Fever.
posted by Chitownfats at 12:04 AM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Chitownfats at 12:04 AM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
And if you have not listened to Orange Juice's album You Can't Hide Your Love Forever, you must listen to it.
Yes yes. Fey happy Scottish pop and I'm so glad that Simon Reynolds' Rip it Up and Start Again pointed me at it, as it did as many other obscure bands/sub-sub-genres of punk & post-punk.
I sort of oscillate between listening to old comforts and diving into new (to me) music, depending on mood and interest. So currently frex I'm listening to a lot of anime soundtracks, as a glance at my last.fm profile will show, but around this time last year it was all jazz, all the time, I think because somebody posted a really good post about it here. But there are also times when I go back to Springsteen or 'Maiden, just because I feel like it.
Because it has never been easier to find new (to you) music, because there's so much out there you cannot even begin to listen to even the best of the best and expect to know it all, it doesn't really matter whether or not you seek out new stuff. You'll miss things you'd loved had you but known about them anyway. So it's pointless to worry.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:29 AM on February 22, 2016
Yes yes. Fey happy Scottish pop and I'm so glad that Simon Reynolds' Rip it Up and Start Again pointed me at it, as it did as many other obscure bands/sub-sub-genres of punk & post-punk.
I sort of oscillate between listening to old comforts and diving into new (to me) music, depending on mood and interest. So currently frex I'm listening to a lot of anime soundtracks, as a glance at my last.fm profile will show, but around this time last year it was all jazz, all the time, I think because somebody posted a really good post about it here. But there are also times when I go back to Springsteen or 'Maiden, just because I feel like it.
Because it has never been easier to find new (to you) music, because there's so much out there you cannot even begin to listen to even the best of the best and expect to know it all, it doesn't really matter whether or not you seek out new stuff. You'll miss things you'd loved had you but known about them anyway. So it's pointless to worry.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:29 AM on February 22, 2016
Hendrix could do something by himself in his bedroom studio, and it would probably be really good, but he couldn’t do that.
hendrix could have done anything he did on electric ladyland and then some in a bedroom studio - a laptop computer, a decent sound interface, some programs and a nice collection of pedals and rack fx and he'd be set
his only real problem would have been volume and how that affects tone, but there are workarounds for that
posted by pyramid termite at 2:43 AM on February 22, 2016
hendrix could have done anything he did on electric ladyland and then some in a bedroom studio - a laptop computer, a decent sound interface, some programs and a nice collection of pedals and rack fx and he'd be set
his only real problem would have been volume and how that affects tone, but there are workarounds for that
posted by pyramid termite at 2:43 AM on February 22, 2016
What's very cool is that her discography is on Spotify and completely remastered, so even people who aren't familiar with wonderful music that is not from the Anglosphere can have contact with it. The internet is great.
Teresa Teng! She's great!
While we're talking about old music from the non-Anglosphere, here is some Cui Jian (who had a new album out last year, I just realized.)
Rock and Roll On The New Long March
Nothing To My Name, which was one of a couple of songs that were played a lot at the Tiananmen square demonstrations.
He Yong's Bell Drum Towers which has the most darling music video ever.
Dou Wei - Be Good Boy
posted by Frowner at 8:12 AM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Teresa Teng! She's great!
While we're talking about old music from the non-Anglosphere, here is some Cui Jian (who had a new album out last year, I just realized.)
Rock and Roll On The New Long March
Nothing To My Name, which was one of a couple of songs that were played a lot at the Tiananmen square demonstrations.
He Yong's Bell Drum Towers which has the most darling music video ever.
Dou Wei - Be Good Boy
posted by Frowner at 8:12 AM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
what's the last album you listened to and every song was great?
posted by judson at 8:18 AM on February 22, 2016
posted by judson at 8:18 AM on February 22, 2016
what's the last album you listened to and every song was great?
Gabriel Kahane - The Ambassador
posted by hippybear at 8:21 AM on February 22, 2016
Gabriel Kahane - The Ambassador
posted by hippybear at 8:21 AM on February 22, 2016
I'm a Gen-Xer and I love music, I used to work in a record store back when those were a going concern. I find myself listening to less and less new (as in newly recorded) music every year. I just don't care what the kids have to say, especially if they're just repeating what Max Martin has scientifically determined to be the most profitable and saying it with Autotune and massive compression. With a few notable exceptions, most of the artists my age have less and less to say every year and my automatic buy list gets smaller all the time. I still find myself listening to plenty of new-to-me music, whether it's classical, jazz, big band, jug band, whatever.
PS: As long as I live, I will never understand why otherwise sensible people listen to Taylor Swift.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:45 AM on February 22, 2016
PS: As long as I live, I will never understand why otherwise sensible people listen to Taylor Swift.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:45 AM on February 22, 2016
what's the last album you listened to and every song was great?Echoing what everyone else in the thread is saying, the new Courtney Barnett album is great. (Okay, so I sometimes skip over "Dead Fox", since the lyrics remind me of the songs the main character in the movie Frank attempts to write.) I also love the Charles Bradley LPs.
I feel like a lot of the new music I've been digging has been similar to what other MeFites are enjoying (the Hamilton soundtrack has also gotten a lot of play chez PXE). As far as music-I-love-that-hasn't-gotten-much-attention is concerned, I've been cranking the Lolita Nation reissue that Omnivore just put out. For the uninitiated, Lolita Nation was Game Theory's magnum opus, a double-album of shimmering pop songs, lurching experimental soundscapes, and sound collage diaries. Their label went under not long after the album's release, and it's been impossible to find since then. If you have a soft spot for jangle pop or college rock, you owe it to yourself to check this out.
posted by pxe2000 at 9:17 AM on February 22, 2016
Eyebrows McGee: "I find that I like current pop music more today, at almost 40, than I did at 14. Because at 14 I was desperately uncool and SO FUCKING WORRIED that if I liked the wrong popular music (which I'm sure I would have), it would be signalling that I was both uncool and desperate. "
This. The best thing about being old is that you can stop giving a shit what people think about what you like. (You can; many don't.)
posted by chavenet at 9:49 AM on February 22, 2016
This. The best thing about being old is that you can stop giving a shit what people think about what you like. (You can; many don't.)
posted by chavenet at 9:49 AM on February 22, 2016
PS: As long as I live, I will never understand why otherwise sensible people listen to Taylor Swift.
I have a friend who is in her late twenties who is very intellectual and has great taste in Life Stuff Generally - and she loves Taylor Swift. I have come to believe that it's just a zeitgeist thing, that Taylor Swift is doing something that I really can't get because of my specific combination of age and experiences. Just like I can't hear all the things a bat hears. I take it on faith that the bat is hearing something, and that Taylor Swift deserves her accolades. It's really interesting, actually - the first time I feel like I really have aged out of a demographic, because I truly can't perceive what's obviously there. With other stuff, I may not get it right away, but I can see more or less what it does. But Taylor Swift is, so to speak, my Waterloo.
posted by Frowner at 11:18 AM on February 22, 2016
I have a friend who is in her late twenties who is very intellectual and has great taste in Life Stuff Generally - and she loves Taylor Swift. I have come to believe that it's just a zeitgeist thing, that Taylor Swift is doing something that I really can't get because of my specific combination of age and experiences. Just like I can't hear all the things a bat hears. I take it on faith that the bat is hearing something, and that Taylor Swift deserves her accolades. It's really interesting, actually - the first time I feel like I really have aged out of a demographic, because I truly can't perceive what's obviously there. With other stuff, I may not get it right away, but I can see more or less what it does. But Taylor Swift is, so to speak, my Waterloo.
posted by Frowner at 11:18 AM on February 22, 2016
Opinions were like kittens, I was giving them away...
And I said you shouldn't make facts out of opinions...
but i also like the pixies, the vaselines, etc! (oh and yay, the microphones! :)
fwiw, high schoolers i've talked to are into jazz and classical -- one of my niece's friends was playing sibelius in the car -- among other things, and one of my friends just called and said his son was asking him about joy division :P
posted by kliuless at 11:49 AM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
And I said you shouldn't make facts out of opinions...
but i also like the pixies, the vaselines, etc! (oh and yay, the microphones! :)
fwiw, high schoolers i've talked to are into jazz and classical -- one of my niece's friends was playing sibelius in the car -- among other things, and one of my friends just called and said his son was asking him about joy division :P
posted by kliuless at 11:49 AM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Small Dollar: The fact that so many books still name the Beatles as "the greatest or most significant or most influential" rock band ever only tells you how far rock music still is from becoming a serious art.
This is kind of a strange piece to link in this context. It strikes me as a reflection of the brief critical fashion of that moment (mid-late 90s) when stakes were high enough to give rise to this degree of rock contrarianism. His very focus on rock, especially the white-rock-collector-indie-nerd axis (Red Krayola, Tim Buckely, Faust) has zero currency in the current critical environment (though I sympathize with it deeply).
I feel that the outcome of poptimism has resulted in a general music audience that is fat and happy on being told that the topmost surface level of music is in fact just fine and great, and even hinting otherwise is seen as elitist and grounds for immediate backlash. As the snobby indie type that Scaruffi embodies is mostly a figure of scorn, and lionizing the unpopular is more unfashionable than ever, I feel a sort of unsettling mixture of admiration and sympathy mixed in with the suspicion and disgust while reading his piece.
There's a few kernels of truth in with the bullshit, but I mostly just sort of miss having the space where that kind of bullshit flowered.
So, though this Scaruffi piece momentarily aligns with the OP article's downplaying of the ongoing importance of the Beatles, it couldn't be more removed from current fashion that it embodies, which involves celebration of the new and the popular at the expense of everything else.
posted by anazgnos at 12:05 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is kind of a strange piece to link in this context. It strikes me as a reflection of the brief critical fashion of that moment (mid-late 90s) when stakes were high enough to give rise to this degree of rock contrarianism. His very focus on rock, especially the white-rock-collector-indie-nerd axis (Red Krayola, Tim Buckely, Faust) has zero currency in the current critical environment (though I sympathize with it deeply).
I feel that the outcome of poptimism has resulted in a general music audience that is fat and happy on being told that the topmost surface level of music is in fact just fine and great, and even hinting otherwise is seen as elitist and grounds for immediate backlash. As the snobby indie type that Scaruffi embodies is mostly a figure of scorn, and lionizing the unpopular is more unfashionable than ever, I feel a sort of unsettling mixture of admiration and sympathy mixed in with the suspicion and disgust while reading his piece.
There's a few kernels of truth in with the bullshit, but I mostly just sort of miss having the space where that kind of bullshit flowered.
So, though this Scaruffi piece momentarily aligns with the OP article's downplaying of the ongoing importance of the Beatles, it couldn't be more removed from current fashion that it embodies, which involves celebration of the new and the popular at the expense of everything else.
posted by anazgnos at 12:05 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
what's the last album you listened to and every song was great?
Amadou & Mariam, The Magic Couple
Thank you internets!
posted by sallybrown at 12:53 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Amadou & Mariam, The Magic Couple
Thank you internets!
posted by sallybrown at 12:53 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
<3 Amadou & Mariam
posted by shakespeherian at 12:54 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 12:54 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just lost a long comment due to bad mouse husbandry, but anyway, the original article doesn't mention the importance of brain development in attaching emotional value to music, which is something that really should be considered. Some people have touched on it in this thread, so here is some more on that:
Until recently control of musical releases by major labels has resulted in an artificial scarcity of new music coupled with artificial hyping of particular artists, another factor that is not discussed in the Fusilli piece. Things are changing now.
posted by asok at 3:18 PM on February 22, 2016
The years highlighted by the reminiscence bump coincide with “the emergence of a stable and enduring self.” The period between 12 and 22, in other words, is the time when you become you. It makes sense, then, that the memories that contribute to this process become uncommonly important throughout the rest of your life. They didn’t just contribute to the development of your self-image; they became part of your self-image—an integral part of your sense of self.what's the last album you listened to and every song was great? Here's one from last year that is fantastic throughout; London Afrobeat Collective - Food Chain.
Until recently control of musical releases by major labels has resulted in an artificial scarcity of new music coupled with artificial hyping of particular artists, another factor that is not discussed in the Fusilli piece. Things are changing now.
posted by asok at 3:18 PM on February 22, 2016
"The years highlighted by the reminiscence bump coincide with 'the emergence of a stable and enduring self.' The period between 12 and 22, in other words, is the time when you become you."
What interesting to me about this is that I mostly dislike and don't listen to the music I listened to from the ages of 12-22 (which would be '77-'87). I do still listen and enjoy the music I listened to from the ages of 25-30 (which would be '90-'95). And, you know, it's exactly that latter period when I feel like I became myself. Sure, I partly became who I am during my adolescence and my young adulthood, but I never really felt I fit in and I was mostly unhappy. The later period was when I found the first (and only) place where I really felt at home, and that was involved with me putting many of the pre-existing pieces together into something that, for the first time, truly felt like me. And that's the person I've been since, with some of the inevitable growth. This also probably has a lot to do with why I dislike most of the music I enjoyed during my adolescence -- to me, it's an uncomfortable, unhappy, angry time. My identity then very much involved music, as it does for so many teens (especially then), and I look back and see that as legitimately part of who I was at the time, but who I was then was a reaction, and a confused reaction, at that.
And so, I dunno. Part of what happened is that music was also very important to me during that older period when I discovered who I was and there was a lot of contrast between the music I listened to as a teen and the music I was then discovering and which became important to me in my late twenties. It was a much wider, larger world of discovery for me, too. So that by itself was a break with the nostalgia aspect of music enjoyment -- even then, in my late twenties, my high school friends had actually already ossified in their taste. What I'm getting at is that my different experience than the typical 12-22 experience that quote describes already set me up to move beyond the nostalgia effect, even though it still ended up being a factor for me as related to that later period of my life.
An alternative view is that I keep looking for new music at the age of 51 because that period of new discovery at 25, which I was aware at the time was a repudiation of the typical nostalgia-adolescence effect, is itself the experience I have nostalgia about and arguably am always (weakly) attempting to re-create.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:31 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
What interesting to me about this is that I mostly dislike and don't listen to the music I listened to from the ages of 12-22 (which would be '77-'87). I do still listen and enjoy the music I listened to from the ages of 25-30 (which would be '90-'95). And, you know, it's exactly that latter period when I feel like I became myself. Sure, I partly became who I am during my adolescence and my young adulthood, but I never really felt I fit in and I was mostly unhappy. The later period was when I found the first (and only) place where I really felt at home, and that was involved with me putting many of the pre-existing pieces together into something that, for the first time, truly felt like me. And that's the person I've been since, with some of the inevitable growth. This also probably has a lot to do with why I dislike most of the music I enjoyed during my adolescence -- to me, it's an uncomfortable, unhappy, angry time. My identity then very much involved music, as it does for so many teens (especially then), and I look back and see that as legitimately part of who I was at the time, but who I was then was a reaction, and a confused reaction, at that.
And so, I dunno. Part of what happened is that music was also very important to me during that older period when I discovered who I was and there was a lot of contrast between the music I listened to as a teen and the music I was then discovering and which became important to me in my late twenties. It was a much wider, larger world of discovery for me, too. So that by itself was a break with the nostalgia aspect of music enjoyment -- even then, in my late twenties, my high school friends had actually already ossified in their taste. What I'm getting at is that my different experience than the typical 12-22 experience that quote describes already set me up to move beyond the nostalgia effect, even though it still ended up being a factor for me as related to that later period of my life.
An alternative view is that I keep looking for new music at the age of 51 because that period of new discovery at 25, which I was aware at the time was a repudiation of the typical nostalgia-adolescence effect, is itself the experience I have nostalgia about and arguably am always (weakly) attempting to re-create.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:31 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Top 40 radio in the 70's was dominated by pop/bubblegum, but there was also rock, funk, disco, folk, country & strange unclassifiable novelty flukes.
Oh, and to clarify to this list: lots of MOR, schmaltz, Eurovision imports, classical gas, a sappy tea advert (only in Canada), a TV cop show theme song with sirens, a 7 minute drone/poetry piece about a shipwreck, and a Satanic film score piano/bass guitar duet in an odd time signature (which started off Branson's Virgin media empire). 70's radio was a weird cornucopia.
posted by ovvl at 5:11 PM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, and to clarify to this list: lots of MOR, schmaltz, Eurovision imports, classical gas, a sappy tea advert (only in Canada), a TV cop show theme song with sirens, a 7 minute drone/poetry piece about a shipwreck, and a Satanic film score piano/bass guitar duet in an odd time signature (which started off Branson's Virgin media empire). 70's radio was a weird cornucopia.
posted by ovvl at 5:11 PM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Top 40 radio in the 70's was dominated by pop/bubblegum, but there was also rock, funk, disco, folk, country & strange unclassifiable novelty flukes."
Yeah. I have all the Billboard Top 10 compilations for each year of the 70s because much of that decade was when I still listened to the same music as my parents and some of it is stuff I still enjoy. Well, and also just for the hell of it.
But then one morning I go to take a shower and set my phone to play a random mix from my entire collection through my shower bluetooth speaker and I'm soaping up and Let Your Love Flow by The Bellamy Brothers comes on and this awful song is stuck in my head for five weeks and I feel like I need to burn the entire house down in a fire.
It doesn't help that I was a country radio disc-jockey in 1982-1983 and that song was in our recurrent hit list and it came up in rotation quite often.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:38 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah. I have all the Billboard Top 10 compilations for each year of the 70s because much of that decade was when I still listened to the same music as my parents and some of it is stuff I still enjoy. Well, and also just for the hell of it.
But then one morning I go to take a shower and set my phone to play a random mix from my entire collection through my shower bluetooth speaker and I'm soaping up and Let Your Love Flow by The Bellamy Brothers comes on and this awful song is stuck in my head for five weeks and I feel like I need to burn the entire house down in a fire.
It doesn't help that I was a country radio disc-jockey in 1982-1983 and that song was in our recurrent hit list and it came up in rotation quite often.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:38 PM on February 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
One thing about The Beatles is that they are a rather massive monolith in 20th century culture, so of course it's natural that some people will resent their influence and react against their cultural domination. Another thing about The Beatles is their wide musical diversity; they recorded effectively in more different styles than virtually any other musical artists that I can think of. My speculation (like grumpybear69) is that The Beatles will be the Shakespeare of the 20th century, and remembered many centuries into the future...
Sam Delaney wrote:
“You remember the Beatle Ringo left his love Maureen even though she treated him tender. He was the one Beatle who did not sing, so the earliest parts of the legend go. After a hard day’s night, he and the rest of the Beatles were torn apart by screaming girls, and he and the other Beatles returned, finally at one, with the great rock and the great roll.”
posted by ovvl at 5:48 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sam Delaney wrote:
“You remember the Beatle Ringo left his love Maureen even though she treated him tender. He was the one Beatle who did not sing, so the earliest parts of the legend go. After a hard day’s night, he and the rest of the Beatles were torn apart by screaming girls, and he and the other Beatles returned, finally at one, with the great rock and the great roll.”
posted by ovvl at 5:48 PM on February 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
For anyone looking for remarkable music that was released in 2015, here are my two recommendations from British musicians.
MNEK - The Rhythm
FKA Twigs - M3LL155X (EP)
posted by yueliang at 7:20 PM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
MNEK - The Rhythm
FKA Twigs - M3LL155X (EP)
posted by yueliang at 7:20 PM on February 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
A 2015 album I've been enjoying lately I found listening to the already mentioned KEXP is Feels Like by Bully, here's the video for their song Trying.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:21 AM on February 23, 2016
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:21 AM on February 23, 2016
The music that means the most to me now, as a 50 year old, was released when I was between the ages of 2 and 8.
I was 18 in 1983 and while there was some fine music back then, I don't count that era as a zenith of musical artistry by a long shot.
Also, The Beatles were not a rock and roll band in their peak years; they were a pop band.
posted by rocket88 at 10:40 AM on February 23, 2016
I was 18 in 1983 and while there was some fine music back then, I don't count that era as a zenith of musical artistry by a long shot.
Also, The Beatles were not a rock and roll band in their peak years; they were a pop band.
posted by rocket88 at 10:40 AM on February 23, 2016
They were emphatically both.
I think the first song Paul ever sang live was Long Tall Sally, and with the Beatles (not counting the Apple rooftop) it was also the last song he ever sang live.
posted by colie at 10:48 AM on February 23, 2016
I think the first song Paul ever sang live was Long Tall Sally, and with the Beatles (not counting the Apple rooftop) it was also the last song he ever sang live.
posted by colie at 10:48 AM on February 23, 2016
If there's one thing I hate more than poptimism, it's nostalgia.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:21 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:21 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lately I've been feeling like articles like this are railing against the idea that silent film is better than talkies or that black and white film is better then color film -- all ideas which really did exist at one point in time, but have pretty much vanished now. This is a long thread, so I haven't read every comment, and for that I apologize, but of the 100 or so comments I read, zero actually argued that "music was better back then". It's just different people railing against that idea. I'm sure there are some people who really believe that music was better back in the old days, as opposed to "I prefer the music back then for various personal reasons, but not because it was actually better", but there are also people who believe the earth is flat; while the belief exists, I don't really see a lot of evidence that it's actually widespread, so it feels kinda weird to rail against it.
posted by Bugbread at 4:39 PM on February 23, 2016
posted by Bugbread at 4:39 PM on February 23, 2016
I'm in my 40s and love Taylor Swift, but I've always been a pop aficionado (among other genres). Shake it Off is my cheer up song, and I love belting out Blank Space - it's so beautifully destructive, and sometimes the fantasy of destroying someone is all that will keep one from acting it out. Hamilton's the last album I heard and loved every song; I also loved all of Bey's Visual Album, and most to all of the recent Linkin Park release (I tend to like everything Linkin Park does; the first song I wasn't fond of was on their third album). And I liked most to all of the recent Lorde CD. And I learned about Dessa about six months ago and have devoured all of her CDs and love all of the songs.
Re: Swift, I think the Switched on Pop episode on her illuminated a lot of what I like about her, even if they don't realize the sound on Blank Space is a pen being clicked.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:09 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Re: Swift, I think the Switched on Pop episode on her illuminated a lot of what I like about her, even if they don't realize the sound on Blank Space is a pen being clicked.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:09 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lately I've been feeling like articles like this are railing against the idea that silent film is better than talkies or that black and white film is better then color film -- all ideas which really did exist at one point in time, but have pretty much vanished now.
Well, I'm sitting here watching Wings from 1927 so those ideas haven't died out completely. I wouldn't say that B&W is better that color but the vast majority of my favorite films are in that format.
posted by octothorpe at 5:18 PM on February 23, 2016
Well, I'm sitting here watching Wings from 1927 so those ideas haven't died out completely. I wouldn't say that B&W is better that color but the vast majority of my favorite films are in that format.
posted by octothorpe at 5:18 PM on February 23, 2016
octothorpe: "Well, I'm sitting here watching Wings from 1927 so those ideas haven't died out completely. I wouldn't say that B&W is better that color but the vast majority of my favorite films are in that format."
But that's saying "I prefer B&W to color," which is very different from "B&W is better than color." Are there tons of people who prefer older music to newer music? Hells yeah. But are there tons of people who think that older music is actually better than newer music? I don't see a lot of people taking that position.
Or maybe it's just that MeFites are a weird sample set.
posted by Bugbread at 6:07 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
But that's saying "I prefer B&W to color," which is very different from "B&W is better than color." Are there tons of people who prefer older music to newer music? Hells yeah. But are there tons of people who think that older music is actually better than newer music? I don't see a lot of people taking that position.
Or maybe it's just that MeFites are a weird sample set.
posted by Bugbread at 6:07 PM on February 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
the idea that silent film is better than talkies
now look here, this is simply objective truth and its failure in the marketplace must be recognized for what it is, evidence of the profound failure of capitalism, so overall, yes, it's exactly the same as debates over styles of pop music. Capitalism is a failed and oppressive economic system which cannot bring truth or beauty to the masses.
Except now and then, for a minute, when I was young or when a creator was and their objectives were truth and beauty at the expense of profit sometimes if they weren't fucking troglodytes.
posted by mwhybark at 9:05 PM on February 23, 2016
now look here, this is simply objective truth and its failure in the marketplace must be recognized for what it is, evidence of the profound failure of capitalism, so overall, yes, it's exactly the same as debates over styles of pop music. Capitalism is a failed and oppressive economic system which cannot bring truth or beauty to the masses.
Except now and then, for a minute, when I was young or when a creator was and their objectives were truth and beauty at the expense of profit sometimes if they weren't fucking troglodytes.
posted by mwhybark at 9:05 PM on February 23, 2016
Also silents vs talkies has a lot in common with beatles vs punk, where the silents are punk and the talkies are the beatles. Technical polish and accomplishment require greater discipline and capital. So fuck that! Here's a camera, here's a light. Let's make a film!
Silents totally rule, talkies suck!
posted by mwhybark at 9:09 PM on February 23, 2016
Silents totally rule, talkies suck!
posted by mwhybark at 9:09 PM on February 23, 2016
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posted by infinitewindow at 8:58 PM on February 20, 2016 [10 favorites]