What's so Civil about War, anyway?
March 10, 2016 9:09 AM   Subscribe

The second trailer for Captain America: Civil War has dropped. The film, the longest yet in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, will clock in at 2 hour and 26 minute and comes out on May 6 in the US.

SPOILERS: The trailer features a special appearance at the end.
posted by entropicamericana (295 comments total) 22 users marked this as a favorite
 
UNDEROOS
posted by incomple at 9:11 AM on March 10, 2016 [24 favorites]


You'd think military trained super soldiers would have some better battle tactics than running straight at each other as fast as they can across a car park.
posted by dng at 9:13 AM on March 10, 2016 [61 favorites]


Can someone give me a rating on how spoilerrific this is (excepting the obvious appearance at the end) before I decide whether to watch it?
posted by Gaz Errant at 9:14 AM on March 10, 2016


Not terribly spoilerly except one event which may be a character death or may be a fake out. Pretty sure this event was in the previous trailer.
posted by entropicamericana at 9:16 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


WHO IS PLAYING UNDEROOS AND IS IT PETER OR MILES
posted by Greg Nog at 9:18 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wait when does Wonder Woman appear
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:18 AM on March 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Huh. So Spider-Man did make a deal with the Devil to make sure everyone forgot Amazing Spider-Man 2.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:19 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


WHO IS PLAYING UNDEROOS AND IS IT PETER OR MILES

@GregNog it's the tighty whities, unfortunately. I was hoping for Miles too.
posted by DGStieber at 9:19 AM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


This already looks better than the comic run, although it won't have the Pun-Cap scene, which is one of my favorites in all of comic books.
posted by DGStieber at 9:21 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Spider-man actually sounds like the little kid he is. It's amazing. So looking forward to this.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 9:22 AM on March 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


MOAR BLACK PANTHER PLEEZ
posted by lumpenprole at 9:22 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Color me both excited and worried. This trailer makes it look like Civil War: the movie is going to be way more about personal relationships than American Principles, and involve way less actors. Where the fuck is the Fantastic Four? Reed was indispensable to Tony. Where are the fucking prison camps? Where is the citizenry? The Yancy Street Gang? The point of Civil War was that truly, truly egregious shit was going down, which is what moved Cap into open rebellion in the first place. This seems like "my five buddies are having a fight with your five buddies" more than a true Civil War.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on March 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


Punisher/Cap is the motherfucking best. But I thought I saw a Punisher skull in the trailer? Was I just hallucinating that?
posted by corb at 9:23 AM on March 10, 2016


You'd think military trained super soldiers would have some better battle tactics than running straight at each other as fast as they can across a car park.

Yeah, the "trailer money shot" of all the heroes flying from left to right across the screen from Age of Ultron just looked weird and stagey when they actually put it in the movie. Maybe they just leave it out this time. That would be okay.

Also, I don't know why, but the mere presence of Spiderman drops my interest in this by about 10 points.
posted by Naberius at 9:24 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Punisher/Cap is the motherfucking best. But I thought I saw a Punisher skull in the trailer? Was I just hallucinating that?

That was probably Crossbones.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:24 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


WHY ARE SHIELD DAD AND METAL DAD FIGHTING. (´;︵;`)
posted by sparkletone at 9:25 AM on March 10, 2016 [87 favorites]


Okay, who else loved the "I can do this all day" callback? How consistently perfect is Chris Evans as Cap?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:25 AM on March 10, 2016 [42 favorites]


I was waiting for him to say it! So perfect.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 9:26 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Where the fuck is the Fantastic Four? Reed was indispensable to Tony. Where are the fucking prison camps? Where is the citizenry? The Yancy Street Gang?

They're over at Fox.
posted by DGStieber at 9:26 AM on March 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


How does commercial real estate insurance work in the superhero world, or actually any kind of real estate insurance, also why do people live in cities there
posted by clockzero at 9:26 AM on March 10, 2016 [32 favorites]


Oh god, it's going to be three hours long? I thought I couldn't be any less excited, but Jesus Christ. Way to exceed expectations, Marvel.

Cap 1 is my favorite Marvel movie, and maybe my favorite comic-book movie, and it's kind of amazing to me how quickly I lost enthusiasm for the MCU franchise post Winter Soldier.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:26 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Where the fuck is the Fantastic Four?
Fox Studios. It's a long story.

Where are the fucking prison camps?
I think that was a version of The Raft coming up out of the water, right? The shot right after that with Tony looking around sure looked like prison cells in the background.

But I thought I saw a Punisher skull in the trailer?
Just Crossbones, one of Red Skull's goons. Sorry.
posted by davros42 at 9:26 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


why isn't it donald glover
posted by beerperson at 9:28 AM on March 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


considering the already long length, I appreciate a focus on relationships at the expense of removing characters or plot points to make for a manageable film. Even if they had rights to all the characters, some cuts would be necessary. I think I'd rather have one long movie than a bloated trilogy that tries to keep everything from the source material but still manages to make some annoyingly unnecessary changes (I'm looking at you, Hobbit films).
posted by cubby at 9:29 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Although looking at the Crossbones image I linked above, I see he has hydraulic powered fists for pneumatic punching which we can all agree is like the best thing ever
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:30 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


You'd think military trained super soldiers would have some better battle tactics than running straight at each other as fast as they can across a car park.

In the comic this would usually be a really cool double page spread.
posted by Artw at 9:30 AM on March 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


why isn't it donald glover

He's too old to play Spiderman!
posted by clockzero at 9:30 AM on March 10, 2016


How does Spideman's mask squint it's eyes?
posted by djseafood at 9:32 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Where the fuck is the Fantastic Four?
Fox Studios. It's a long story


Oh man, that's a damn shame. Nothing chokes me up more than the Yancy Street gang coming out and saying, "These are our boys", unless it's the Reed/Sue split.
posted by corb at 9:32 AM on March 10, 2016


I don't care about some civil war. I want a Kamala Khan movie!!!
posted by Pendragon at 9:33 AM on March 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


This trailer makes it look like Civil War: the movie is going to be way more about personal relationships than American Principles, and involve way less actors. Where the fuck is the Fantastic Four? Reed was indispensable to Tony. Where are the fucking prison camps? Where is the citizenry? The Yancy Street Gang? The point of Civil War was that truly, truly egregious shit was going down, which is what moved Cap into open rebellion in the first place. This seems like "my five buddies are having a fight with your five buddies" more than a true Civil War.

A lot of the major players are at other studios, which necessarily changes the nature of the event. You don't have the cast of thousands that the comics had. There are only really a handful of supers in the MCU at this point. Spidey is only in it thanks to improbable real-world events forcing Sony's hand and making them amenable to working with Marvel.

This is why a lot of people were surprised that they went with Civil War, since it's going to have be a much, much smaller scale event in the movies. And the impact is going to be lessened: instead of the pain of decades-long comrades being split apart, these are people who have only really known each other for a few years.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:33 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Can someone give me a rating on how spoilerrific this is (excepting the obvious appearance at the end) before I decide whether to watch it?

Well, there's explosions, cities being wrecked, fights, more fights, heroes arguing, even more fights, more explosions. So...Pretty much a Marvel Universe movie.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:34 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Two and a half hours. Wow. That's shorter than Batman vs Superman, too. Infinity War (Or whatever it's called) is going to have 68 characters. 68.

I already checked out of the general superhero films around Cap 1. Then I heard people describing Avengers Ultron as a "bridge" movie and it's like they're bringing everything I hate about superhero comics to the movies. Watching the trailer it's amazing to me how well they've cemented the Marvel feel.

Can we get a She-Hulk Netflix series? That would be cool? I think?
posted by Neronomius at 9:35 AM on March 10, 2016 [17 favorites]


How does Spideman's mask squint it's eyes?

SYMBIOTE
posted by beerperson at 9:35 AM on March 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


Sangermaine, any word on who will be available?
posted by corb at 9:35 AM on March 10, 2016


I've seen this film like 10 times already.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 9:36 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


sweeeeeeet

And yes, count me pleased that Underoos sounds like the kid he is.
posted by Kitteh at 9:37 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


You'd think military trained super soldiers would have some better battle tactics than running straight at each other as fast as they can across a car park.

I always wondered about this in comics. Guys like Wolverine and Deadpool are protrayed as super-ninjas, but in the real world a lot of martial arts and fighting tactics in general are about defending and minimizing harm to yourself.

If you were superhumanly resistant to harm, or could heal from any wound, the martial arts you'd develop would be very different. Charging straight at enemies would make a lot more sense.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:38 AM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Neronomius, I've been on record for a while as wanting a She-Hulk show. Starring Aisha Tyler. And basically just Ally McBeal with occasional fears of super strength.
posted by nonasuch at 9:39 AM on March 10, 2016 [29 favorites]


How does commercial real estate insurance work in the superhero world, or actually any kind of real estate insurance, also why do people live in cities there

You jest, but Marvel actually went and published several series with that question as the premise.
posted by cjelli at 9:40 AM on March 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't care about some civil war. I want a Kamala Khan movie!!!

I want a Kamala Khan Netflix series. Or an Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Netflix series. I trust TV more as a female-friendly medium than I do the movies. And I think putting The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt in a blender with Daredevil with a heaping scoop of the Jessica/Trish friendship from Jessica Jones, then hitting "frappe" is the perfect tone for either of those young-lady-heroine shows that live in my head.
posted by sobell at 9:41 AM on March 10, 2016 [31 favorites]


Oh no my emotions
posted by The Whelk at 9:41 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


The big Marvel movies have gotten dour and not-fun. I was tired of Age of Ultron about 2/3 of the way through. I really liked Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, and Deadpool because they were fun. This looks more not-fun.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:41 AM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Can we get a She-Hulk Netflix series? That would be cool? I think?

That would be perfect, but I doubt it for a couple reasons: 1) too expensive 2) another lawyer/superhero combo. I suspect we'll end up seeing a Blade show or something similarly dark in 2018 or 19.

But what I really want (and I know this will never happen) is a Nextwave show.
posted by Gaz Errant at 9:41 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


The FF franchise is welcome back as long as they drop everyone in the cast except Michael B. Jordan (who immediately classes up any joint he's in).
posted by Kitteh at 9:41 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Wasn't Tony pretty much responsible for all the bad shit that went down in the last film? Cap just punched some folks and tried to manage it as best he could and now he's the bad guy? Tony seems like he should be directing his controlling desires inward (though he does say we or us in the trailer I suppose). It's likely I'm missing context or nuance, but what?
posted by ODiV at 9:44 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


And I think putting The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt in a blender with Daredevil with a heaping scoop of the Jessica/Trish friendship from Jessica Jones, then hitting "frappe" is the perfect tone for either of those young-lady-heroine shows that live in my head.

Imagine if Spiderman Too: 2 Many Spidermen (The Musical) went horribly awry and Titus ended up as Actually Spiderman Too.

I would watch that.
posted by cjelli at 9:44 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Neronomius, I've been on record for a while as wanting a She-Hulk show. Starring Aisha Tyler. And basically just Ally McBeal with occasional fears of super strength.

My money, let me give you it.
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


I want a Kamala Khan Netflix series. Or an Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Netflix series.

YES, I WANT IT NOW!!!!!
posted by Pendragon at 9:46 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sangermaine, any word on who will be available?
corb

Confirmed so far:

Captain America
Iron Man
Black Widow
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Winter Solider
Falcon
Black Panther
War Machine
Hawkeye
Crossbones
Spider-Man
Ant-Man
Sharon Carter/Agent 13
Baron Zemo
posted by Sangermaine at 9:47 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tony's problems and need for control have become clearer and clearer as the movies progress. He says the Avengers are a team, but really, he's always thought of it as "people who work for me despite a lot of them handily being better human beings than I have ever aimed to be."
posted by Kitteh at 9:48 AM on March 10, 2016 [22 favorites]


HULK SABBATICAL?
posted by ODiV at 9:50 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sangermaine, any word on who will be available?

When thinking of the scale of Civil War in the MCU, you have to remember there are no mutants in the MCU.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:51 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Stark very much wants to control everything so that he can protect everything. "Well, I got my shit together so let me get all your shit together too. It's a simple program that likely involves robot suits." I wouldn't be surprised if we learn of some Hydra/SHIELD corruption from the second movie as Stark was involved in setting up the three flying gunships.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:51 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


there are no mutants in the MCU.

What about Inhumans ?
posted by Pendragon at 9:52 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


you have to remember there are no mutants in the MCU

There are, we just can't call them that.
posted by Kitteh at 9:53 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


You'd think military trained super soldiers would have some better battle tactics than running straight at each other as fast as they can across a car park.

During the 1984 Secret Wars series, Cap was billed as the best tactician in the Marvel Universe, with battle experience going back to World War II, and his instructions to his teammates were repeated variants of "Hit 'em fast and hard!" Okay, Cap, thanks...
posted by Gelatin at 9:53 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


When thinking of the scale of Civil War in the MCU, you have to remember there are no mutants in the MCU.

But there are Inhumans. Or so Agents of SHIELD would have you believe. And they're popping up everywhere nowadays! Strangely enough, Civil War is apparently going to completely ignore this.
posted by Gaz Errant at 9:55 AM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


In the comics, I couldn't quite buy Tony Stark as the guy on the side of cozying up with government, registering superheroes, etc. The Tony Stark of the movies seems even less like that guy. I am open to hearing people's thoughts on how it makes sense for his character to take on that role.
posted by not that girl at 9:56 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


When thinking of the scale of Civil War in the MCU, you have to remember there are no mutants in the MCU.

Mutants mostly sat out the (comics, non-MCU) Civil War, since it happened semi-concurrently with M-Day, so that's not hugely different; and, thematically, as written, Civil War mostly ignored all of the mutant-centric registration stories, so it's not clear the MCU would be different on that front either -- if anything, it's easier to take the idea of a registration act as new if mutants aren't around.
posted by cjelli at 9:56 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


You'd think when a show exists solely by corporate fiat the corporation would care about it, but apparently not so much.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:57 AM on March 10, 2016


*wheezes*

This movie is going to fucking break my heart. Chris Evans as Cap is the best thing to happen to the MCU, hands down.

(And the Stucky feels omggggggg. Please send help.)
posted by Salieri at 9:58 AM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


I am open to hearing people's thoughts on how it makes sense for his character to take on that role.

I assume they're going to justify it as an extreme course correction following Ultron. "I almost destroyed the world by plowing ahead doing whatever I feel like, but since I'm the best of us clearly this means NOBODY can be trusted to act without supervision." The idea that he's uniquely terrible will of course never cross Tony's mind.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:59 AM on March 10, 2016 [37 favorites]


Mutants mostly sat out the (comics, non-MCU) Civil War, since it happened semi-concurrently with M-Day, so that's not hugely different

Hmm. I suppose you are right. I kind of conflate the Civil War and M-Day in my mind, I guess, as I read them at essentially the same time.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:00 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


That would be perfect, but I doubt it for a couple reasons: 1) too expensive 2) another lawyer/superhero combo.

She-Hulk is a very different kind of lawyer-superhero. For one, she's almost always been on the fun, comedic side of things, almost to the point of being the anti-Daredevil who is usually dour and brooding.

For another, while Daredevil is basically a superhero who occasionally acts as a lawyer, She-Hulk in her best recent incarnations has been primarily a lawyer who occasionally does super-heroics. A series about her would be, as nonasuch says, "basically just Ally McBeal with occasional fears of super strength".

She-Hulk would be a great choice for a Netflix series not just because it would be fun, but because it would be a chance to showcase all sorts of minor Marvel characters who would never get face time in the movies as her clients. There's also the fun tradition of She-Hulk breaking the fourth wall, either directly or through things like researching cases by digging through Marvel comic back-issues for evidence.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:00 AM on March 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


It would be amazing to see Aisha Tyler, I think she'd be a great fit but Marvel does not have a good track record with people of colour, especially women of colour. But now you have me thinking. Thinking about it, I would love to see Gina Rodriguez from Jane the Virgin as She-Hulk, she's utterly superb.

I kind of would like Marvel to make stuff separate from their main serious thing. Make a fun She-Hulk series. Make a fun Squirrel Girl series. I'd be really interested in seeing tangential stuff that doesn't necessarily connect back to Boy Scout and Tin Man. But I'm also a grouchy old man, I'll go back inside.
posted by Neronomius at 10:00 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't like superheroes or action movies at all, but Stucky fandom has completely won me over. I really enjoyed the first Cap movie, kind of slept through a lot of Winter Soldier but have seen the important parts thanks to Tumblr and YouTube, and I am super excited about this movie. I live for the relationship stuff and for sad Steve Rogers' sad feelings.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 10:02 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Nothing chokes me up more than the Yancy Street gang coming out and saying, "These are our boys",

Link, please? I googled but came up with nothing.
posted by anotherpanacea at 10:09 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


People, people. We already have a working She-Hulk series, and it's called Suits, and when Gina Torres finally hulks out holy fuck will it be awesome.
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on March 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


She-Hulk is kind of interesting when it comes to race because, unlike the Hulk, she never turns back into a human form. She's always a giant green person, though of course she's always been depicted as a giant green person with Caucasian features.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:14 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


How does Spideman's mask squint it's eyes?

In the original Civil War comic Spider-Man has a suit built for him by Iron Man.... Not that that necessarily means anything, but there's a faint sound effect when he squints so I'm going to say that suit isn't just cloth.
posted by qntm at 10:17 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can I just say while I like the fact that they move, I really hate, hate, hate the tiny eyes on the costume? The costume was the one thing ASM2 got right.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:18 AM on March 10, 2016


My fanboy squeal was so high pitched my dog tilted its head.

Really, really looking forward to this.
posted by Mooski at 10:19 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I love the eyes. It's the first time movie Spidey has looked like Steve Ditko's take on the character.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:20 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm actually thrilled it's a smaller scale movie/conflict. My initial distaste for the MCU doing the Civil War storyline was that I thought it was too over the top, and didn't track with the actual direction of the MCU for a variety of reasons (i.e. no one's identities are secret?). Making Civil War a more personal conflict, and tying it to oversight of the likes of the Avengers, are I think really good calls for the MCU. In general I think the MCU has done a really good job with keeping their stakes at just the right level. The Captain America and Iron Man movies especially have had great, emotional cores to their stories without letting their plots bloat into byzantine unmanageability.

Also count me as yet another person who is here to weep over the tragedy of Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes. Having Emotions about Steve, Bucky, and Natasha is what I require from Captain America movies, and this looks like it will deliver in spades on that front! Ahahaha this movie is going to be emotionally devastating, I just know it. Quoth Sebastian Stan aka the Winter Soldier: "you will be dehydrated from tears by the end of this film."

Anyway, happy 99th birthday Bucky Barnes, sure hope this movie doesn't end with you dead, brainwashed, or on the run! (I for one have got my fingers crossed for Buckycap.)
posted by yasaman at 10:21 AM on March 10, 2016 [18 favorites]


She-Hulk is kind of interesting when it comes to race because, unlike the Hulk, she never turns back into a human form.

This is...variable. Much of the time, she's able to shift back and forth at will, without a shift in personality. I'm really not sure what her current status is, though.
posted by Four Ds at 10:21 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sangermaine, I agree with everything you said re: She-Hulk. Still don't think it's in the cards anytime soon.

Prove me wrong, Marvel! Prove me wrong.
posted by Gaz Errant at 10:22 AM on March 10, 2016


Yeah, the mask-squint thing has been an artistic flourish established by Ditko and used ever since. I don't think there's ever been an in-universe explanation for it, it's just the artist showing Spider-Man's emoting more clearly.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:22 AM on March 10, 2016


I get that's what they're going for, and I know he co-created or created the character, but I've never been impressed by Ditko's art.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:24 AM on March 10, 2016


Much of the time, she's able to shift back and forth at will, without a shift in personality.

If memory serves me correctly, that's true, but Shulkie stays in her Hulk form all the time because she like being seven feet tall and bright green. John Byrne had her lose the ability to revert to human form in a graphic novel, and when a heartbroken Reed Richards broke the news, her reaction was basically, "So?" Though I think she regained the ability to transform somewhere along the way, even if she doesn't use it; she even appears in court as a well-dressed She-Hulk.
posted by Gelatin at 10:25 AM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


As far as I am concerned, in re Steve Rogers and Bucky, everything that is supposed to "happen" after the timeframe of Speranza's excellent "Four Minute Window" is just a bad dream.



SPOILER FOR A FANFIC FOLLOWS



Everyone knows that SHIELD, the US government et al are horrible and that Steve and Bucky are running a specialty contractor business under new identities after a daring escape. Nothing else has actually happened or actually will happen. Everyone is fine, no one dies, except the US government of frustration because they are down two superhumans.

I mean, watch this "movie" if you want, but know that it's not real.
posted by Frowner at 10:26 AM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


I want a Kamala Khan Netflix series. Or an Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Netflix series.

an Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Netflix series.

an Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Netflix series.

That would be amazing, I'm imagining it as a sort of aesthetic cross between the first Avengers movie and Pete & Pete
posted by clockzero at 10:27 AM on March 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


Having Emotions about Steve, Bucky, and Natasha is what I require from Captain America movies

So I wasn't misseeing things, was I? (I kept having to pause and rewind). Natasha was on one side, Steve and Hawkeye on the other? I'm going to weep.
posted by joycehealy at 10:27 AM on March 10, 2016


When will those stupid SWAT-dressed goons ever get it through their helmets: if you are not a superhero, do not take on superheroes.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:32 AM on March 10, 2016


Have you read the latest installment of Four Minute Window though, Frowner? I mean, I know Speranza's got our back re happy endings, but oh god. I'm gonna need a happy place post-Civil War, I just know it.

Anyway, even if Civil War ends in rocks fall, everyone dies, I know fandom's gonna do its happy ending thing. Probably via threesomes, because what solves being on opposite sides of an intense superhero conflict better than a threesome? Nothing, judging by fandom.
posted by yasaman at 10:33 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Can we get a She-Hulk Netflix series? That would be cool? I think?

We also need more Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel!
posted by Fizz at 10:34 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


2 hour and 26 minutes

Ugggggggggggggghhhhh.

Marvel's real strength has always been the small-scale character moments, which is why their TV shows are doing so well. I also miss the interesting experiments with style in the original Captain America. All the movies since the first Avengers -- other than Guardians, which was fun, and maybe Ant-Man, which I haven't seen -- have just been cookie-cutter slogs. The "house style" is getting too heavy-handed.

But I could probably forgive them if they did Planet Hulk/World War Hulk and then followed it up with an Incredible Hercules series on Netflix.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:35 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh and I guess I'll watch this new movie at some point. Marvel trailer is Marvel trailer.

*shrugs*
posted by Fizz at 10:35 AM on March 10, 2016


the latest installment of Four Minute Window

Oh, that's right - I had been putting that off, after a quick check to make sure it seems like the Speranza-happy-ending tradition wasn't going to be horribly shattered. I think I might wait until she produces the ninth installment (surely she will!) and read them back to back. I could personally go for a lot of domestic-minutiae fic in that series. Maybe they could take a trip upstate or something.
posted by Frowner at 10:39 AM on March 10, 2016


During the 1984 Secret Wars series, Cap was billed as the best tactician in the Marvel Universe, with battle experience going back to World War II, and his instructions to his teammates were repeated variants of "Hit 'em fast and hard!"

"What do we do, Cap?"
"punch them, with your super fist"
posted by Greg Nog at 10:46 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


'If you have laser eyes, I recommend using laser eyes'
'Thanks boss!'
posted by beerperson at 10:49 AM on March 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


Mutants mostly sat out the (comics, non-MCU) Civil War, since it happened semi-concurrently with M-Day, so that's not hugely different

Yeah one of my all-time favorite scenes from that time period is Carol Danvers having the gall to show up at the X-Mansion to convince the X-Men to side with pro-registration (after Tony Stark tried and failed), and Emma Frost basically giving her verbal and psychic whiplash.

http://panels-of-interest.tumblr.com/post/109570368460/emma-frost-vs-ms-marvel-from-new-x-men-2004
posted by splatomat at 10:49 AM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


I could personally go for a lot of domestic-minutiae fic in that series

Holy crap, I'm so glad I'm not alone. I was trying to explain to my husband how satisfying it is to read fic about Bucky Barnes grocery shopping and cooking dinner and maybe getting a cute service dog for his PTSD, and I gave myself contact embarrassment. Frowner and Yasaman you are making my day.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 10:49 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Ryan North isn't too busy to write a Squirrel Girl series is he? Because I'm not sure I'd be down with it written by anybody else.
posted by rikschell at 10:49 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Winter Soldier is probably my favorite MCU movie (the soundtrack is fantastic and the end credit sequence is so good), really excited that the Russos are directing this and the next Avengers films.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:51 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anyone else having trouble getting excited about the MCU films after having watched Daredevil and Jessica Jones this past year? This trailer just seems so visually dull in comparison to the Netflix shows.
posted by octothorpe at 10:51 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


So I wasn't misseeing things, was I? (I kept having to pause and rewind). Natasha was on one side, Steve and Hawkeye on the other? I'm going to weep.

Given their moment in Sam's house in Winter Soldier, I'm really hoping that she ultimately winds up on his side in all this, one way or the other. But I don't know. Winter Soldier gave me a lot of reasons to have faith in these directors, but gah, I can't think of a single comics storyline more nonsensical than the original Civil War, and I wish Marvel would stop pointing to it like it was a good idea. They simply can't recreate that in the MCU given what they have to work with, and again, the original was a real low point in terms of writing. But it's hard to know what they'll ultimately do with this. Trailers are often deliberately misleading.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:51 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also while I would scream with delight at a Nextwave series, I'm still hoping for an Authority movie that would cost the GNP of several small countries.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:52 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


the original was a real low point in terms of writing

Still got a ways to go to beat this, though.
posted by asterix at 10:55 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I can't think of a single comics storyline more nonsensical than the original Civil War

Infinite. Crisis.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:55 AM on March 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'll probably see this but I have to say Captain America is probably my least favorite of the Marvel franchises. I wonder if some of that has to do with not being American? Personally I've found the character a bit dull and have enjoyed him most when he's used as comic relief. I also find the whole Avengers story getting a bit overwhelming as someone who is not all that familiar with the comics and storylines for the characters. I've been appreciating shows like Daredevil and Jessica Jones, and movies like Ant Man and Guardians of the Galaxy, probably because I'm never really left wondering "wait, who is that guy again?"
posted by Hoopo at 10:56 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have to say that I've found each Marvel movie/series a little worse than the previous one - the only one I've really enjoyed in the last couple of years was Jessica Jones.

The thing that bothers me about all these movies is that apparently smart characters do incredibly stupid things that they'd never do, entirely because the plot demands it. At that moment, I lose my suspension of disbelief and the movie falls on the floor.

We've really been enjoying 11/22/63, and a lot of the reason is that characters do real world things... they screw up but they also have good ideas, just like people do. The moment where Jake Epping is asked which unit he served in in Korea in that show just cracked me up - because of the cleverness but also the very convincing timing of the actors.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:57 AM on March 10, 2016


I can't think of a single comics storyline more nonsensical than the original Civil War

Infinite. Crisis.


Basically any DC continuity-altering event might has well have been written by a room of full of monkeys with typewriters: "It was best of times, it was the blurst of times."
posted by entropicamericana at 11:00 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


The thing that bothers me about all these movies is that apparently smart characters do incredibly stupid things that they'd never do,

It's hormones. Super-Testosterone-X.
posted by My Dad at 11:01 AM on March 10, 2016


I wonder if some of that has to do with not being American?

It might be, but as an American.. I don't love him for his being an American superhero. I love him because he's integrity is admirable.

He's kind of like Superman without the.. superiority and goody two-shoesness..
posted by INFJ at 11:02 AM on March 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


HULK SABBATICAL?

HULK DO MIDNIGHT RUN-STYLE BUDDY PIC WITH THOR IN THOR: RAGNAROK. MIDDLECLASSTOOL LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS FOR REASONS THAT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS TO ANYONE NOT DEAD INSIDE.

It would be amazing to see Aisha Tyler

Oh my god, I haven't been this angry that an idea will never come to fruition since Chris Sims suggested that Fox dump the Gotham series idea and instead do one about Alfred's backstory. I would never tire of watching this.
posted by middleclasstool at 11:02 AM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Holy crap, I'm so glad I'm not alone. I was trying to explain to my husband how satisfying it is to read fic about Bucky Barnes grocery shopping and cooking dinner and maybe getting a cute service dog for his PTSD, and I gave myself contact embarrassment. Frowner and Yasaman you are making my day.

The thing is, I like different things in different fandoms, sort of based on what the point of the story is for me.

I can read basically infinite police procedurals starring Bad-Tempered Self-Denying Detective Magneto, for instance, and infinite AUs starring Bad-Tempered Mechanical Genius 19th Century Prole Magneto, because what interests me about the X-Men is pretty much Magneto And The Tension Between Seeking Justice and Not Being Destroyed By Your Own Failings As You Do So. On technical points I actually like Mystique best, and any story about Mystique leading various mutants in smiting the unrighteous is a winner for me, but I really get Magneto, because he's such a jerk.

Similarly, although on technical points I like Natasha best, followed by Bruce, I'm really reading about Steve and Bucky both to imagine what a life where you actually Get Your Shit Together would be like and to imagine a life where you can basically ditch all the horrible and live in accordance with your principles. So I like home-based stories about Steve and Bucky, where they're just doing the right thing as part of an ordinary day. With Magneto, doing the right thing is horrible and self-destructive and contradictory and theatrical; with Steve and Bucky, it's what comes naturally.

It's like, one reads about Magneto because it's impossible to stop trying to do activist crap but equally impossible to actually feel good while doing it, and one reads about Steve and Bucky because it's comforting to imagine all those contradictions smoothed away.
posted by Frowner at 11:03 AM on March 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I can't think of a single comics storyline more nonsensical than the original Civil War, and I wish Marvel would stop pointing to it like it was a good idea. They simply can't recreate that in the MCU given what they have to work with, and again, the original was a real low

I've so far avoided spoilers on what the MCU Civil War might entail, but, honestly, it's a much better fit for the MCU than it was originally. The start of the original comics Civil War and the way it went made no sense within the context of decades of preceding comics in which vigilantism and mass destruction were practically every-day events. The MCU has posed superheroes as relatively new, and not the status quo, so, say, the Registration Act makes way more sense in that context as a response to a new and evolving situation, rather than something flying in the face of decades of established convention.

No: I don't think the MCU can recreate the Civil War plot -- nor should it. But it might make it actually make sense, which would be an improvement on the original.
posted by cjelli at 11:04 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Captain America
Iron Man
Black Widow
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Winter Solider
Falcon
Black Panther
War Machine
Hawkeye
Crossbones
Spider-Man
Ant-Man
Sharon Carter/Agent 13
Baron Zemo
LOTS AND NONE AT ALL
posted by comealongpole at 11:06 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Basically any DC continuity-altering event might has well have been written by a room of full of monkeys with typewriters: "It was best of times, it was the blurst of times."

Final Crisis at least has the excuse that it's Grant Morrison approaching peak-Grant Morrison weirdness and incomprehensibility.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:08 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Captain America
Iron Man
Black Widow
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Winter Solider
Falcon
Black Panther
War Machine
Hawkeye
Crossbones
Spider-Man
Ant-Man
Sharon Carter/Agent 13
Baron Zemo
Matter Eater Lad

posted by beerperson at 11:09 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


[An Unbeatable Squirrel Girl Netflix series] would be amazing, I'm imagining it as a sort of aesthetic cross between the first Avengers movie and Pete & Pete

I'm not very familiar with Pete & Pete, but I'm thinking a bit of Buffy.
posted by brundlefly at 11:10 AM on March 10, 2016


I'm not very familiar with Pete & Pete

Artie wept.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:11 AM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


since Chris Sims suggested that Fox dump the Gotham series idea and instead do one about Alfred's backstory

Scene: Wayne Manor exterior, 2AM

"You get down from there this instant, you little shit! God damn you, I fought in the bleeding Malayan Emergency!"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:13 AM on March 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Yeah, I'm not exactly having a real problem with this taking the bare concept of CW and doing something hopefully much better with it. Mark Millar did a crap job with it; the absence of Reed Richards isn't even a problem, because Millar's using Richards to justify the registration act via psychohistory kind of ignores that he'd already rejected the idea, years before, with excellent arguments. MeFi's Own mightygodking did an excellent piss-take on the series, I Don't Need Your Civil War, which is the miniseries itself completely (and hilariously) re-scripted.

As for this, yes, it looks excellent. "Thunderbolt" Ross looks to be taking the lead on the registration/Initiative/whatever they end up calling it, which makes more sense re: Tony's culpability for Ultron. I would have preferred that Black Widow be on Steve and Bucky's side, but I liked the little warning that she gave to Tony. Also a bit disappointed that it's Peter and not Miles, but oh well.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:14 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I've seen this film like 10 times already.

But the film is a saddening bore
For she's lived it ten times or more
She could spit in the eyes of fools
As they ask her to focus on

Sailors fighting in the dance hall
Oh man!
Look at those cavemen go
It's the freakiest show
Take a look at the Lawman
Beating up the wrong guy


(sorry couldn't help myself)
posted by Windigo at 11:17 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


The start of the original comics Civil War and the way it went made no sense within the context of decades of preceding comics in which vigilantism and mass destruction were practically every-day events. The MCU has posed superheroes as relatively new, and not the status quo, so, say, the Registration Act makes way more sense in that context as a response to a new and evolving situation, rather than something flying in the face of decades of established convention.

No. It was perfect, forever, specifically because of its parallels with 9/11 and other Big Tragedies. Because yes, vigilantism and mass destruction were everyday events in the MCU - just as there were large scale tragedies involving large death before 9/11 - but the point is that this particular event, because it tugged on people's heartstrings, became the flashpoint that allowed hate and fear to rise. Just as 9/11 became the event that let people's ugly anti-Muslim prejudice out, so this was the event that let everyone's ugly anti-supe prejudice out. Just as 9/11 started premiering indefinite detention and lack of access to lawyers, so did Civil War start premiering indefinite detention and lack of access to lawyers. The whole thing is an enormous referendum on the concept of civil liberties vs safety, and it is more relevant than ever during days when Presidential candidates are legit suggesting registration of Muslims.
posted by corb at 11:21 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


But seriously can Steve and Bucky just kiss already.
posted by Windigo at 11:21 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


And don't forget:
It's on America's tortured brow,
that Micky Mouse has grown up a cow.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:23 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


But seriously can Steve and Bucky just kiss already.

Before or after they get to the fireworks factory?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:24 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Final Crisis, while not without storytelling issues, works a hell of a lot better if you ignore everything else DC was doing around it. With the exception of some of the stuff Morrison was doing in Batman and the Superman story he wrote all the lead-ins and tie-ins contradict or activity sabotage the main story.

Also Multiversity was better.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


But seriously can Steve and Bucky just kiss already.

Before or after they get to the fireworks factory?


Both? During?

Yes, during. And both.
posted by Salieri at 11:29 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


There have been a lot of pitch-perfect actors cast as superheros over the years. But none has come closer to expressing more heart since Christopher Reeve's turn as Superman than Chris Evans as Captain America.
posted by echocollate at 11:31 AM on March 10, 2016 [23 favorites]


Also if you don't read Superman Beyond nothing that happens makes an ounce of sense at all, and it's not like the story makes piles on piles of sense with all the material.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:31 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Relevant: some of the cast (including Evans and Downey) do a Q&A on BuzzFeed's Tumblr.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:35 AM on March 10, 2016


I was surprised to see Spider-Man being played by a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon.
posted by mrnutty at 11:35 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes, during. And both.

Breathy, sweat dripping from his brow. "I can do this all night."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:37 AM on March 10, 2016 [14 favorites]


No. It was perfect, forever, specifically because of its parallels with 9/11 and other Big Tragedies...The whole thing is an enormous referendum on the concept of civil liberties vs safety

I think we're just going to have to disagree about whether or not it did a particularly good job at that, is the thing, because 'civil liberties vs. safety' is pretty well trod territory even within comics, let alone other media, and doubly so within Marvel's canon, where the X-series have dealt with different aspects of that, including mandatory registration, repeatedly -- so 'it did this' isn't sufficient grounds, in isolation, for me to praise it. It did it, yes, but it didn't do it well.
posted by cjelli at 11:41 AM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I see where you're coming from on that. I think - for me at least - this was particularly moving because it crossed across a majority of comic lines, involving everyone, thus not being confined to one tiny corner of the world like the X-series. And also because the X-series doesn't really have a lot of integration with the community or really the outside world at all - even when they exist in the same world as other superheros, you rarely see them. So to me, this felt like a "fuck yeah this is a big moment worth opening all our heroes to" rather than "we have this one series where we talk about racism being bad mkay".

...So yes, I would have accepted a lower bar on Civil War because of what it /was/.

Can I ask what you felt made it fail?
posted by corb at 11:45 AM on March 10, 2016


2 hour and 26 minutes

That seems about right for a major "war" between super types who were friends. Unlike BvS, which is slightly longer and sounds like its padding. 'Cause really, Bats vs Supes just wouldn't last long, unless the writers are throwing in plot devices to keep it "equal".

Winter Solider was great, so I'm looking forward to see what the Russo's do here.

As to whether the MCU can do a version of Civil War, of course they can. Whether it'll be good remains to be seen, but I've been digging the MCU, so this sounds like another fun way for me to throw them money.

Trailer wise, I'm enjoying that this is being framed as such a personal battle between Tony and Steve. That makes sense, the movies have been building towards this and it leads an emotional weight that I'm hoping means lots of character beats between the fights.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:48 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


If awards actually reflected skill at embodying a character, Chris Evans would have two Oscars, both for playing Captain America, and I wouldn't bet against him for a hat-trick after this film.
posted by chonus at 11:52 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can I ask what you felt made it fail?

It was a mess. The writing was all over the place, not only in terms of quality but in organization. Marvel clearly didn't put much thought into, or do a very good job in policing, how the event was supposed to go.

For example, it wasn't even clear what the Registration Act said or did. There were several different versions given in various books, from simply requiring supers to register with the government to actively impressing all supers into government service. You'd think they would have at least worked out beforehand what the central premise of the event was.

Also, a lot of people, myself included, felt the event had a lot of characters acting way out of established character. Like Tony becoming Literally Hitler for the sake of the story. Or really, how it broke down into the evil, Nazi-like government stooges vs. the glorious freedom-loving rebels instead of trying to have a balanced depiction of the concerns of both sides. When one side is running prison camps, creating evil clones of fallen comrades, and murdering people, you're tossing all pretense of fairness out the window.

If you want a comic response to the 9/11 era, look to another Marvel work by Mark Millar: the first few volumes of the Ultimates. They were the perfect embodiment of Bush-era America: big, dumb, loud gung-ho nationalists kickin' ass and not caring about the consequences.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:52 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


After the fantastic way Winter Soldier integrated with Agents of SHIELD I'm pretty disappointed that this movie (which would tie in so perfectly with the Inhumans plotline on AoS) is apparently not going to. (Unless the writers are just trolling everyone by pretending not to know anything about AoS.)

Besides which I'm not convinced it's going to avoid the pitfalls that Civil War had in the comics, so...we'll see I guess, but nothing in this trailer has reassured me that this won't end up being my least favorite MCU movie to date.
posted by mstokes650 at 11:54 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, a lot of people, myself included, felt the event had a lot of characters acting way out of established character. Like Tony becoming Literally Hitler for the sake of the story. Or really, how it broke down into the evil, Nazi-like government stooges vs. the glorious freedom-loving rebels instead of trying to have a balanced depiction of the concerns of both sides. When one side is running prison camps, creating evil clones of fallen comrades, and murdering people, you're tossing all pretense of fairness out the window.

Agreed. Mostly though, I don't think that 9/11 stories can really be told within the Marvel mythos without coming off as patronizing or bad. A lot of real-world complexity was being lost to the overall publishing mission of delivering stories about men in spandex beating the crap out of each other.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:58 AM on March 10, 2016


I wonder if some of that has to do with not being American? Personally I've found the character a bit dull and have enjoyed him most when he's used as comic relief.

Okay, I'm sorry for the amount of tl;dr I'm about to unload on you, but I've gotta.

So Captain America, on the surface, seems like a boring, patriotic Boy Scout who's literally swathed in the American flag. The key there is on the surface. It's instructive to remember that in-universe, Captain America is propaganda. What Steve Rogers signed up for way back in World War II was to be a guinea pig, one super soldier of many. He wanted to serve, he wanted to do right, and what he thought was right was fighting Hitler. Plus, tiny Steve Rogers was an angry little shit with a chip on his shoulder about the way the world treated him as a physically weak, chronically ill man, which his best friend Bucky Barnes saw ("and you haven't got anything to prove, huh?"). But then Dr. Abraham Erskine died, taking the secret of the Super Soldier serum with him, and suddenly Steve Rogers is it, he's the one super soldier they've got. And they make a symbol out of him.

And that was fine back in WWII, when there were people who still knew pre-Captain America Steve Rogers. Peggy Carter knew Steve and loved him, and Bucky Barnes told him that he wasn't following Captain America, he was following the skinny kid from Brooklyn he grew up with. Plus, Captain America is great symbol! He's leading an integrated unit, with members of other Allied forces in his unit too, and he's fighting evil science Nazis. This is an idealized, best case scenario of the US's involvement in WWII: good men and women, doing good work fighting evil. This is what Steve Rogers always wanted.

Fast forward 70 years though. Steve Rogers has lost everyone he ever cared about, either to death or old age. The war's over. There's no one really left who remembers Steve, all that's left is Captain America, the symbol. It's a shame this bit was cut from the Avengers movie, because it's a lovely bit of wordless acting from Chris Evans, and shows some of Steve's profound displacement and pain. Look at that claustrophobic cityscape he's sketching, the anxious wringing of his hands when he's on the subway, how incongruously small he looks.

The timeline's not clear, but what can't be more than mere weeks after getting thawed out of an arctic ice floe, Steve is tossed into the fight again, because the world needs Captain America. Steve Rogers? Not so much. That's a theme that's hammered home again in The Winter Soldier movie, where basically when we first see Steve, he's engaging in what the fandom affectionately/despairingly calls his sadness errands. Steve Rogers' life is shit sad, you guys. He's got the job, and some coworkers he's varying degrees of friendly with and a new friend in Sam Wilson, and that's it. Captain America has eaten Steve Rogers alive. That's his central tragedy.

And amidst all this, he's still the moral center of the entire MCU. It's not an easy moral center. That's what makes Cap's integrity so appealing. He says the price of freedom is high, and it's a price he's willing to pay, and we know that's true, because he's paid it. He's out there still superheroing it up despite his profound personal losses. All that makes him far from dull, to me.
posted by yasaman at 11:59 AM on March 10, 2016 [100 favorites]


My enthusiasm for Cap 3 took a dive as soon as I heard that originally Tony was just going to have a cameo, but then Downey demanded it be turned into a co-starring role. And that the Russo brothers rewrote the movie as part of their prospectus to get to direct Avengers 3 and 4. Basically, it's a movie written according to the economic interests and power of a number of people and characters, none of which are actually Chris Evans or Steve Rogers. And that tends to be when movies go to shit, at least if you liked what is theoretically the main character.

It may very well still be an entertaining movie and I'm sure it will make lots of money (and Marvel isn't going to care how shitty or good it is as long as it makes Iron Man money instead of Cap money.) But I doubt I'm going to be very pleased with it.
posted by tavella at 11:59 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


1. Spidey!

2. OH GOD WHY CAN'T YOU ALL JUST HUG AND LOVE EACH OTHERRRRRRR
posted by nicebookrack at 11:59 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


"Winter Soldier", the first "Avengers" movie, and "Guardians of the Galaxy" sort of shift around in my head jockeying for position as my favorite Marvel movie, but most often I incline to "Winter Soldier". And this movie is by the same directors and writers. And James Gunn, the GoG director, has said this is one of the best things that Marvel's done. So I have pretty high expectations, and this kicked them up another notch.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:00 PM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Like Tony becoming Literally Hitler for the sake of the story. Or really, how it broke down into the evil, Nazi-like government stooges vs. the glorious freedom-loving rebels instead of trying to have a balanced depiction of the concerns of both sides. When one side is running prison camps, creating evil clones of fallen comrades, and murdering people, you're tossing all pretense of fairness out the window.
I remember during Civil War that Millar and other Marvel people seemed confused that fans were not evenly divided between pro and anti registration.
they forget one of Caps unspoken superpowers: The Power of Morality. In any moral quandary that takes place in the Marvel Universe, Captain America WILL make the right decision.
posted by cuscutis at 12:00 PM on March 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


One of the great joys of working in the Judge Dredd universe is you can pretty much ignore all the Mark Millar contributions to it.
posted by Artw at 12:00 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm still hoping for an Authority movie that would cost the GNP of several small countries.

This is merely an IMDB trivia page entry, so about as far from ironclad as can be, but:
The supposed budget for Avengers Infinity War parts 1 and 2 will clock in at a total of about $1 billion while $400 million is just reserved for the actors, directors, producers, and other crewmembers. This is not suprising since Marvel is the biggest movie franchise ever with earnings that surpassed $9 billion.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:04 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure which I dislike more: Mark Millar's work in comics, or Zack Snyder's work in movies. But then Millar started getting movie work, which can't be a good thing.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:06 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't think that 9/11 stories can really be told within the Marvel mythos without coming off as patronizing or bad.

But it made Dr. Doom cry, bruh. That's how you know 9/11 was some serious shit.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:07 PM on March 10, 2016


After the fantastic way Winter Soldier integrated with Agents of SHIELD I'm pretty disappointed that this movie (which would tie in so perfectly with the Inhumans plotline on AoS) is apparently not going to. (Unless the writers are just trolling everyone by pretending not to know anything about AoS.)

Given that the show's first season was pretty terrible up until the last couple of episodes, that even since then it's been pretty uneven and never found a big following and had some frankly goofy plot points (fish oil?), I don't blame the film people for not tying themselves to TV continuity. I likely would have made the same call.

The Inhumans so far haven't proven to be remotely as popular as the X-Men, so I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped those plans entirely and cancelled the Inhumans movie. Which is a shame, because it would make for great Bowie-esque bonkers space opera, but they've kind of been trying to play it like a straight X-Men story and to me it falls flat there.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:08 PM on March 10, 2016


Steve Rogers' life is shit sad

Yes, exactly. One of the things that fandom does is restore the actual sadness to a lot of stories that are supposed to be blood-and-thunder punch-ups. Even happy stories about Steve Rogers are really sad.

My favorite Steve Rogers stories are the ones that emphasize his working class background AND that he was a working class artist. I like them because they work against the usual positive narrative about class in America and against the idea that working class people are either going to bootstrap to wealth or else are just dumb losers with no creative abilities. I like how Steve wants to do something that's important to him that isn't actually about getting rich or being successful on the usual American terms. I like how the hungry thirties live on in those stories.

And I like how permanent it is - Steve Rogers is broken by history. His life is ruined by history, in the service of people who do not, on balance, give a good goddamn about ordinary working people. No matter what good things happen to him later - in canon or in fanfic - he's still someone whose life was stolen from him. And that is something we are never, ever supposed to say about the injuries of class and history - everyone is supposed to bounce right back and cheer up and make their first million, or whatever. People who are shattered aren't interesting in American terms, because we don't admit that bad things happen to good people, and we don't admit that class and history can actually cause people harm.


And the other thing about Steven Rogers - and why I like the construction company AU - is that money doesn't fix things for him. He wakes up ridiculously rich, like virtually everyone in stupid SHIELD world, and it doesn't help.

One of the reasons I was never interested in superhero stories as a young 'un was because all this super-sad, super traumatic stuff seemed to happen to people (their whole families died; they faced grotesque bodily distortions; they were totally isolated from everyone; etc) and there never seemed to be much psychological reckoning. Or even when there was, it was a la the X-Men, where it's, like, shedding a manly tear - sadness as a plot point.

Steve Rogers gets to be relatively sad even in canon.
posted by Frowner at 12:11 PM on March 10, 2016 [34 favorites]


Basically I want The Inhumans movie to be like a psychedelic fever-dream Game of Thrones on the moon using humans as pawns and also big psychic dogs.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:13 PM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


If they're going to get me to suspend my disbelief that Spidey's mask eyes can move and express emotion, they'd better make it worthwhile and at least once show him with the droopy sad eyes (one of my favorite little bits of artistic licence).
posted by wabbittwax at 12:15 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Millar's a talented writer. He's written some genuinely good work. He's clearly brimming with interesting ideas. However, like Garth Ennis but even more so, he has an unfortunate inability to rein in the worst of his juvenile and puerile tendencies, and so the execution of his ideas are often garbage. He really needs someone standing over him saying, "That's a cool idea Mark, but let's maybe not include the baby rape".
posted by Sangermaine at 12:15 PM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


yasaman, that is hands down one of the best comics comments I have ever read on the Blue. It is devastatingly accurate.

I mean, Cap is working with Tony Stark, who really doesn't have much of a moral center and America is now where war has become the order of the day and hey, we're all okay with that. I don't think Cap is okay with the state of war in the 21st century. There is no more good guys; there is nothing but grey and it kills him inside that this is what it has become.
posted by Kitteh at 12:17 PM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I haven't read the books, but I get the feeling that Cap is perhaps a metaphor for the US's role in the world now --going around creating havoc in the name of do-goodery. And that Tony Stark and his side of things are there to reign him in (a la the U.N) -- is that a stretch or is this just a completely made-up cartoon-world 'conflict' that will end up with everybody just fast friends again in the end? (I don't need spoilers, i'm just trying to decide if the story is going to be worth sitting through 2.5 hrs of 'splosions)
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:19 PM on March 10, 2016


You know, I don't think I've thought about it, but I think that's why Cap resonates with me so much these days. Like him, I was ready for a Nazi-killing war (though he actually fought in it), and like him, I ended up in a grey war that put sludge on all of us.
posted by corb at 12:20 PM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think being the Super Soldier Who Lived has thrust Cap into the role of wreaking havoc for the US government. He's doing it because he is expected to do it, but would rather not (he actively questions the government now). It's Tony that is the one saying that it's totes okay to be the superpowered heavy for any reason at all.
posted by Kitteh at 12:23 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't like comic books, I don't like super heroes, I'm not an action movie fan. But catching the first Captain America film on cable, I remember vaguely and surprisingly enjoying it. Then I caught the Winter Soldier on cable, and it was all over for me. And it's all because of the things yasaman discusses. Steve Rogers makes my heart ache, and I want so badly for him to find some peace.
posted by Windigo at 12:24 PM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


(and since then I've gone back and watched allllll the other Marvel films. The Steve and Bucky show are my favorites along with Guardians of the Galaxy, but that doesn't really feel like a super hero film to me, more like a classic space adventure?)
posted by Windigo at 12:25 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I like this other other new Civil War trailer. Lots of Spidey.



🍔
posted by zamboni at 12:26 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


So I wasn't misseeing things, was I? (I kept having to pause and rewind). Natasha was on one side, Steve and Hawkeye on the other? I'm going to weep.

It wouldn't be a Civil War movie without someone making a switch. Canonically, it's Spidey going from Team Tony to Team Steve, but I can see Nat realizing being a company woman isn't the route to salvation.

They've been telegraphing that Infinity War Part I is the New Avengers, so I see things going sideways at the end (and if you read the books you know how) and everyone who's still left from the original Avengers either walking away or taking a desk job.


I do find Tony's transition from anti-authoritarian to 3-piece suit wearing apparatchik to be maybe out of character, so we'll see how that goes. As the comics version turns more and more into RDJ, the movie version looks to be more like how he used to be in the comics (where he was SecDef at one point just before Civil War).
posted by thecjm at 12:26 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel like Steve has faith (and Magneto has doubt).

Steve may doubt the US government, but he doesn't doubt the possibility of justice. I think that's why he's a relatively....unconflicted isn't the right word, but relatively morally whole person.

Magneto has doubt - that's why he does horrible things in pursuit of mutant liberation. He doesn't think that the arc of the universe bends toward justice, or that there's any underlying way of understanding what's right; there's only what you can force the world to do.

Steve is appealing to a justice that he feels is as real as Tuesday; Magneto is pointing to a justice that he knows is basically a made-up assertion.

Insofar as Steve is a metaphor, I tend to see him as a metaphor for the many decent people who are enmeshed in the aims of the US, who indeed are made by this corrupt and secretive state, but whose dreams are of something else. That's why I like best the fan fic where Steve just leaves - he doesn't stick around being conflicted by how he's used, he just says fuck this violent imperialism and runs off.

Tony, now, Tony is just an asshole.
posted by Frowner at 12:30 PM on March 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


And I like how permanent it is - Steve Rogers is broken by history. His life is ruined by history, in the service of people who do not, on balance, give a good goddamn about ordinary working people.

Right! Exactly! And the other thing that makes the Captain America part of the MCU work so well is that we see another side of the wounds of history too. Bucky Barnes is broken by the military industrial complex and by war. The horror of what created the Winter Soldier out of Bucky Barnes is that it's the terrible, inhumane, inexorable extension of the war machine. Bucky Barnes went to war to serve his country, in good faith and with honor. He ends up stripped of his memory and agency, his very name taken from him, turned into a weapon, and that is explicitly a failure and crime of the American military industrial complex. I thought this was a tremendously smart choice on the part of the MCU to take the comics Winter Soldier storyline's kind of outdated Soviets-are-evil background, and turn it into what we saw in the Winter Soldier movie. That a US driven by fear compromises itself morally and takes in former Nazi scientists like Arnim Zola to work for us, and that fear feeds into letting HYDRA grow on our own soil.

Steve Rogers is turned into a super soldier out of all our best impulses, by his own choice. Bucky Barnes is turned into a super soldier out of our worst national impulses, and is profoundly violated and injured by a process in which his choice never entered into it. The end credits art had the Winter Soldier's shadow be the stars of the American flag, and I thought that was just such a perfect encapsulation of his role.
posted by yasaman at 12:36 PM on March 10, 2016 [28 favorites]


When will those stupid SWAT-dressed goons ever get it through their helmets: if you are not a superhero, do not take on superheroes.

My head canon is that they just gave themselves cool nicknames because, hey, it worked for Natasha.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:45 PM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I do find Tony's transition from anti-authoritarian to 3-piece suit wearing apparatchik to be maybe out of character, so we'll see how that goes.

I can see Tony pulling a Dennis Miller.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:56 PM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, the "trailer money shot" of all the heroes flying from left to right across the screen from Age of Ultron just looked weird and stagey when they actually put it in the movie.

Wow, you and I want completely different things from comic book movies. That was one of my favorite visual shots in all the Marvel movies, right up there with that shot of Baymax reaching forward to hold open the door for the team in Big Hero 6, looking like a perfect comic book cover.
posted by straight at 12:56 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Can I ask what you felt made it fail?

I've been trying to think of a good way to say this succinctly, because I felt it failed on a lot of points (inconsistent characterization, having already been noted here, is one). The short version is that is poses a 9/11 parallel in which we must weigh civil liberty and security, and then stocks both arguments with strawmen: the pro-liberty side rallies against the Registration Act not on the principled grounds that it tramples Constitutional protections, not on the grounds that it is an invasion of privacy, not on the grounds that it restricts freedom of assembly or speech, but because it would make it harder, practically speaking, to carry out acts of vigilante justice without reprisals on their friends and families.

It turns a debate of ideals into ones of practicalities, and begs the question of whether vigilante justice itself needs be justified. What of the civil rights of of individuals detains by non-state vigilantes? It fails to ever actually engage with the balance of civil liberties and security as ideas, and instead asks, for both sides, 'What makes us most secure? Strong individuals acting on their own, or an all-powerful State answerable to no one but itself?'

The whole endeavor is an intellectual bait-and-switch, basically. It isn't about what it says it's about. Millar is almost entirely interested in security and not at all in civil liberties; to the degree that the two sides are in conflict, they're arguing about who gets to ignore the law: the individual, or the state?
posted by cjelli at 12:59 PM on March 10, 2016 [13 favorites]


🎶 Hello, it's Cap 3
I was wondering if after all this time you'd like to be destroyed spiritually 🎶

—Captain America: Civil War in song form

It turns out that not only are we getting tragic star-crossed Stucky (!!!) in this movie, Gwyneth Paltrow is shooting scenes as Pepper Potts. Since 2008 I would gladly pay $30 for IMAX seats just to watch Mr. Stark and Ms. Potts read the phonebook to each other for two hours, I enjoy their MCU relationship so much. And I'm now convinced that Tony and/or Pepper are going to die, because you can't kill off one and have the other not be there in the movie.
All I do is fight for Pepper, and I lean on those relationships. That’s my go-to thing, that and Don Cheadle and War Machine and Rhodey. Because to me there’s been two hearts that have gone through it, and then a little mini heart who was JARVIS and whatever he’s up to now, he’s A.I. basically. And then I have those two little robots Dummy and U and nobody wants to talk about them anymore, “But I pulled them out of the ocean! Where are they?” “Relax about your robots!"
Emotions:
_1) I'm okay
_2) I'm not okay
x3) OH GOD PEPPER AND TONY AND THEIR PRECIOUS ROBOT BABIES
posted by nicebookrack at 1:10 PM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


It wouldn't be a Civil War movie without someone making a switch. Canonically, it's Spidey going from Team Tony to Team Steve, but I can see Nat realizing being a company woman isn't the route to salvation.

In fact, the comics had both Spidey switching sides and double-agents on both teams. I'd guess Natasha is actually on Steve's side the whole time. Black Panther is only there to make sure Wakanda knows what SHIELD, the Avengers, and the US Govt are up to. The Vision is probably playing the role of Reed Richards, taking Tony's side not because he has a stake in the political squabble but because of some Bigger Picture. (Oh, I forgot that the Vision is partly Jarvis, so that makes sense.)

I can't think of who would be a double agent on the other side. Wanda hates Stark. To the extent that Ant-Man is on Henry Pym's team, he's not gonna side with Stark or let the Pym particles fall under government control. Hawkeye, maybe?
posted by straight at 1:11 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Less succinctly, here's Mark Millar on what he thought Civil War was about:
The important thing really is the Superhero Registration Act essentially. It has nothing to do with secret identities. Weirdly, people get really hung up on the whole secret identity thing. When I was writing that book, I was thinking about having the superheroes having to expose their identities and get brought under government legislation, and then I said to Marvel, "Who's got a secret identity?" and they said, “No one.” There's basically Spider-Man. Everyone, even Daredevil, had given up their secret identity at this point. I was like, alright, so I made it about something else.

“What it's about is Iron Man feels anybody who is walking around with a nuclear reactor on their back or whatever should be under government control of some kind. They should be maybe working for the government the same way cops work for local government. And it's sensible when you think about it. It totally makes sense. You have a license, you make sure this guy is okay, you make sure he doesn't have a criminal record and all this kind of stuff. And it's sensible but Captain America's against it because he comes from a simpler time and he feels superheroes should be autonomous and not be involved in politics. It's an ideological argument between the two, and that's all that matters. That's what Civil War is -- it's Iron Man vs. Captain America, and they're both right, they're both good guys. Because the moment you demonize one of them, then the story loses its power. You've got to like both of these guys, they're both correct, and that's why guys we like go to either side with them, too.
posted by cjelli at 1:15 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I have a suspicion that this film will make way more sense if I continue to not watch Age of Ultron.
posted by Artw at 1:16 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


While we're on the wonderful subject of happysad Stucky domestica fic, I am personally very fond of the subgenre involving "Pepper briskly commandeers a bemused Bucky and puts him to work as a personal assistant / gardener / cupcake designer, which he is surprisingly good at and too busy doing to angst over life/Steve, because Pepper is kind and efficient and able to set people on fire with her skin." ❤️
posted by nicebookrack at 1:18 PM on March 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


Millar is almost entirely interested in security and not at all in civil liberties; to the degree that the two sides are in conflict, they're arguing about who gets to ignore the law: the individual, or the state?

But wasn't this the central argument of the Bush years? Post-9/11 the nation was almost entirely interested in security and not at all in civil liberties.

The argument at the time seemed to be whether we needed to grant the government unlimited powers to protect us, or whether we'd be better protected by strong Jack Bauer types or the "imperial presidency/unitary executive" who would do whatever was needed to be done to stop the bad guys, unimpeded by any sort of laws against things like torture or illegal searches.

Maybe Millar just had his finger on the national pulse at the time.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:25 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, nicebookrack, I nearly burst into happy tears at the end of Iron Man 3 when we see Tony go back for the bots. That was the moment when I thought, "THIS FRANCHISE UNDERSTANDS ME." I guess it's more that RDJ understands me because now I suspect he was the one all "BUT WHAT ABOUT MY PRECIOUS ROBOT BABIES????" upon receiving the Iron Man 3 script.
posted by yasaman at 1:26 PM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


I have a suspicion that this film will make way more sense if I continue to not watch Age of Ultron.

Probably the only things you need to know from AoU is that the Scarlet Witch's family was killed by a bomb with Stark's name on it, The Vision is a cross between Jarvis and the Cosmic Mind Gem that powered Loki's mind-control staff in the first Avengers spliced together by Asgardian magic and worthy of lifting Thor's hammer, and Tony's technology yet again got hijacked and used to threaten the world and kill a bunch of people.
posted by straight at 1:27 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


The worst part about the X-Men being at Fox is that now Cable and Deadpool can't fight over Civil War. Theirs was the saddest CW divorce, and Deadpool of all people made one of the best pro-registration arguments.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:30 PM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


But wasn't this the central argument of the Bush years? Post-9/11 the nation was almost entirely interested in security and not at all in civil liberties.

I would call 'security' the side that kept winning the central argument of balancing liberties and security, and Millar presents that split within that side as the split within the nation. He ignores the pro-civil liberties side.

You can look at things like the massive (and largely ineffectual) opposition to the Patriot Act as proof either that security was the central concern, or the ineffectual (despite being massive) opposition as proof that people were deeply interested in civil liberties and did not see that interest reflected in the political will of Congress. Likewise, you can look at the manifold rallies against the Iraq War as evidence that people were strongly opposed to the idea that use of military force would strengthen the country, or look to the, you know, war itself as evidence that the country favored the perception of security it gave.

Millar had his finger solidly on the pulse of some of America, certainly. It happened to be the part of America that won a lot of political fights during the Bush years, but it wasn't the only side.
posted by cjelli at 1:36 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


> "Tony, now, Tony is just an asshole."

I hope that's not where this ends up going.

Tony Stark has seen every attempt he has ever made to save people co-opted by evil. He started out making weapons to fight terrorists, which were co-opted by terrorists. He made the Iron Man suit to fight villainy and saw it immediately co-opted by a villain. He made Ultron to save the world and Ultron tried to destroy it instead.

A lot of people on the internet have had the reacted, "Tony, dude, MAYBE YOU SHOULD STOP MAKING STUFF." I'm holding out a hope that Tony has basically come to that conclusion himself. That the Registration Act is the result of an epiphany on his part -- I am too dangerous. I clearly cannot keep control of my own creations. Somebody, somewhere, please, please stop me before I kill us all.
posted by kyrademon at 1:37 PM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


..and Tony's technology yet again got hijacked and used to threaten the world and kill a bunch of people.

The really important part here is that Tony tried to come up with a way to protect the world and it backfired horribly, 'causing the birth of Ultron and the Slovika destruction.

So Tony has a lot of guilt and it explains why he thinks supertypes should be reigned in. He played god, messed it up, people died and now he's ready to overseen. Which is huge thing for Tony.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:38 PM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


That's what Civil War is -- it's Iron Man vs. Captain America, and they're both right, they're both good guys.

We can only hope that nobody involved in the making of this movie paid any attention to Mr. Millar whatsoever. I feel like I quote this post every time Civil War comes up, but it always captures my chief objections:

The idea of pitting two of Marvel’s main heroes against each other ideologically is a disaster on the face of it, because one of them is Captain America and is the moral center of the Marvel Universe, and the other is Iron Man, who’s an alcoholic control-freak who’s made numerous questionable decisions in the past....And even if you can put these two on the same moral and ethical footing, arguing that superheroes are inherently dangerous and need to be regulated isn’t the way to do it, because that debate simply can’t be won by Iron Man’s side in the Marvel Universe, because the entire conceptual framework the fictional universe rests on is the idea that super-powered vigilantes are necessary to keep the world from sliding into chaos. Literally every single Marvel comic up to that point is an argument that Tony’s wrong, because you can’t spend forty-five solid years telling stories about irresponsible idiots who need governmental oversight to keep them from making fatal mistakes.

Every single MCU movie so far is an argument that superheroes do not need to be registered or controlled (even if you ignore Winter Soldier, where the organization best positioned to register or oversee them turned out to be half HYDRA and bent on world domination), because in every single MCU movie so far the superheroes are not registered and not really controlled, and every single MCU movie so far has a happy ending where the good guys win in the end. Tony's side is essentially positioned to be fighting against the continued existence of superhero movies full of explosions and fight scenes and property damage, which is not an ideological fight you can actually win while you're starring in a superhero movie full of explosions and fight scenes and property damage.
posted by mstokes650 at 1:44 PM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


The other half of it, though, is that he can't conceive of a world where he needs supervision but his peers don't. It's not enough for him to willingly register to work for The Government™ – his failure proves that everybody is too dangerous to be trusted, because otherwise he has to admit that he personally sucks.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:47 PM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


The flip side of *that*, however, is that, well ... he kind of has a point.
posted by kyrademon at 1:50 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]




I can see Tony pulling a Dennis Miller.

Huh, that pretty well encapsulates the vague unease I feel about Tony as a character.

I love him a lot (especially the way Matt Fraction handled him back in the day -- him getting drunk at the world tree and bottoming out on an extended bender with the Dark Elves was really really good) but I always feel like he's one bad day away from going "Fuck it, I'm on the side of power. Besides, if you think about it, siding with suits is the real punk rock move these days, right?"
posted by middleclasstool at 1:54 PM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


he kind of has a point.

The only real thing counting against it is that it breaks the super heroic univers and so isn't any fun. Which is everything, really, even if it makes total sense in a sane world.
posted by Artw at 1:56 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Plus also Hydra and shit.
posted by Artw at 1:56 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sometimes I think I'm the only one that hates the idea of a Captain America loving Punisher.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 1:58 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


One of the best moments in the comics Civil War was in New Avengers 22 where Luke Cage decides not to register.
https://imgur.com/gallery/Q9vZA
posted by cuscutis at 2:00 PM on March 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


I can't help but feel that, in any other context, having a character who suggests that since he is more powerful than ordinary people, and since his moral sense is obviously infallible (by his own judgement, of course), he should be allowed to act as he sees fit with no outside oversight - having a character with all these attributes and then literally calling him CAPTAIN AMERICA - would be received as pretty heavy-handed.
posted by Dim Siawns at 2:01 PM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


> "Plus also Hydra and shit."

I dunno, I kind of think Hydra is a point in Tony's favor. I mean, there has to be a way to set up a better system of checks and balances than, "And in the event that our superhero regulatory agency proves to itself be overrun by evil, we hope someone shows up who can punch it really hard."
posted by kyrademon at 2:02 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


He played god, messed it up, people died

One thing in AoU that was ignored by the other Avengers during the movie, was ignored by most of the people who saw the movie, will probably be ignored by Tony out of guilt, and I expect will be ignored by future movies anyway: Tony didn't create Ultron.
Bruce: Tony, maybe this might not be the time...
Tony: Really? That's it? You just roll over and show your belly, every time somebody snarls?
Bruce: Only when I've created a murder-bot!
Tony: We didn't, we weren't even close! Were we close to an interface?
(Bruce makes an indecisive face)
Tony was TRYING to create creepy-all-seeing omnibot Ultron, so it's likely only a semantic distinction that he didn't actually succeed yet. Instead, his tech got hijacked again, due to Tony making a Hacking 101 mistake equivalent to plugging an unfamiliar flash drive into your computer while giving it auto-run admin privileges. A virus / magic spell / entity-thing jumped from the staff gem, took over Tony's computer system, installed itself into the existing Ultron infrastructure, ate JARVIS, and declared itself a murder-bot.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:10 PM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Jesus fucking Christ, Luke Cage. I missed that the first time around. "Has a timeless quality to it."
posted by corb at 2:13 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Batman Versus Superman and Civil War are day and night.
When both of these movies open (in late March and early May, respectively), they will surely diverge in lots of different ways. But at least in their trailers, there’s really just one big and very noticeable difference between Batman v Superman and Civil War: The time of day in each movie.
hahahahaha!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:15 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


This discussion is starting to make me wonder if the best way to pull this off to get the desired moral equivalence would have been to make Steve the villain. E.g.:

STEVE: You're absolutely right, Tony. What you're proposing would result in a sane, just world.
TONY: So join me.
STEVE: I can't. Because Bucky.
TONY: That's insane.
STEVE: That's love, man. Throw down.
posted by kyrademon at 2:15 PM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yes, but the fact that the same mind gem bonded to JARVIS rather than Tony's Ultron prototype was so virtuous as to be worthy of Thor's hammer implies that it wasn't the mind gem that corrupted Ultron, but rather something was deeply wrong with the Ultron program to begin with.
posted by straight at 2:15 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


"And in the event that our superhero regulatory agency proves to itself be overrun by evil, we hope someone shows up who can punch it really hard."

Arguably vulnerable to super-regulatory capture.
posted by Artw at 2:16 PM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, Tony's bio family also has been impacted by both Cap and the Winter Soldier going back 70 years. Based on some of the clips from the trailers, a lot of Tony's motivation may be based on fear and trauma. What would you do if you were a Genius Billionaire Playboy Philanthropist that had PTSD?
posted by lootie777 at 2:16 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


One thing in AoU that was ignored by the other Avengers during the movie, was ignored by most of the people who saw the movie, will probably be ignored by Tony out of guilt, and I expect will be ignored by future movies anyway: Tony didn't create Ultron.

Pedantic semantics. He was trying to create Ultron, he just goofed as you mentioned. Were he not fueled by guilt and a god complex, Ultron wouldn't have been born
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:17 PM on March 10, 2016


Tony was TRYING to create creepy-all-seeing omnibot Ultron, so it's likely only a semantic distinction that he didn't actually succeed yet. Instead, his tech got hijacked again, due to Tony making a Hacking 101 mistake equivalent to plugging an unfamiliar flash drive into your computer while giving it auto-run admin privileges. A virus / magic spell / entity-thing jumped from the staff gem, took over Tony's computer system, installed itself into the existing Ultron infrastructure, ate JARVIS, and declared itself a murder-bot.

I only saw AoU once so maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the idea was "we can't figure out how to give this program autonomous consciousness, but we've got an all-powerful artifact called the Mind Stone right here - maybe if we mash them together the stone will create the structure we need!" Which is in fact what happened, they just didn't think the consequences through at all (and were making a murderbot for the consciousness to reside in).
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:19 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I do find Tony's transition from anti-authoritarian to 3-piece suit wearing apparatchik to be maybe out of character, so we'll see how that goes.

He's not anti-authoritarian, he's anti anyone having authority over him.

So where is Thor in all this? Obviously he had some excuse to cop out at the end of Age of Ultron, but will he turn up? (Yes, I have read the comic version of CW.)
posted by biffa at 2:23 PM on March 10, 2016


So where is Thor in all this? Obviously he had some excuse to cop out at the end of Age of Ultron, but will he turn up? (Yes, I have read the comic version of CW.)

Thor's back in Asgard dealing with some stuff.

Ignore the comic. Other than the name, the two aren't very similar. Comparing the movie to the comic will probably only cause confusion, anger and frustration.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:25 PM on March 10, 2016


Due to timing, I can say that Civil War reads much differently as a reaction to Sandy Hook and not 9/11.
posted by politikitty at 2:25 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes, but the fact that the same mind gem bonded to JARVIS rather than Tony's Ultron prototype was so virtuous as to be worthy of Thor's hammer implies that it wasn't the mind gem that corrupted Ultron, but rather something was deeply wrong with the Ultron program to begin with.

Unexplained in the movie, so just my theory, but the Ultron program/virus was in the scepter, not the Mind Stone. a scepter created by Thanos to allow others to handle the power of the stone. Why Thanos was handing an inifinty stones out to people when he's obsessed with collecting them is a different story
posted by thecjm at 2:27 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


This storyline is kinda weird to me, on a basic and meta-narrative level. Superheroes are power fantasies, and fairly recently (in the history of comics themselves) people started producing comics using those traditional superheroes which had some psychological realism and depth, which is cool.

But they're still absurd stories; the problems with superheroes go so far beyond the potential of powerful individuals to cause harm that trying to make the story more realistic in this way seems, to me, to expose and underline the absurdity of the uneasy marriage between simplistic power fantasies and the kind of dramatic sophistication that people expect now. These stories still rely on magic, essentially: things that should be impossible can just happen, but the world that we know is still going on under the hood, so to speak.

It's hard for me to completely dismiss the idea that the natural world coexisting with a very explicitly supernatural world is, in reality, a demand of markets and demographics when it comes to movies and comics like this. I guess that's one reason that I generally prefer fiction/drama that doesn't try to have it both ways. On the other hand, I really enjoyed the first Avengers movie, but I think that's because Joss Whedon knew how and where the dramatic structure can bend and flex without breaking.
posted by clockzero at 2:32 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Considering we haven't seen the Big Bad in any of these trailers, I'm convinced the real conflict will be in the third act.

For the unfamiliar
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:48 PM on March 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's out there still superheroing it up despite his profound personal losses. All that makes him far from dull, to me.

i don't know, "profound personal losses" seem like almost a cliche when it comes to superheroes. That's a really common part of superhero origin stories. None of that really seems to jump out at me as particularly unique to Captain America.
posted by Hoopo at 3:05 PM on March 10, 2016


But they're still absurd stories;

Hmm.
1. Why do you consider them absurd?

2. Are all stories absurd?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:05 PM on March 10, 2016


Official photo stills
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:13 PM on March 10, 2016


I can't help but feel that, in any other context, having a character who suggests that since he is more powerful than ordinary people, and since his moral sense is obviously infallible (by his own judgement, of course), he should be allowed to act as he sees fit with no outside oversight - having a character with all these attributes and then literally calling him CAPTAIN AMERICA - would be received as pretty heavy-handed.

But the beauty of the character is that Steve doesn't think he's right because he's strong or because he's Captain America. Captain America's moral compass is a gauntlet thrown down to the writer. "Ok. Set aside all your cynicism. What do you really believe would be the right thing to do?"

It's a fantasy story the premise of which is, "What if there were someone who really was all the good things America claims to be in it's mythology?" And what saves it from being terrible is that America is not just embodied by Captain America, America is a character in the story who is judged by Captain America and found wanting. The story is told so we admire Captain America, but we're not really tempted to think we are or could be Captain America.
posted by straight at 3:17 PM on March 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Why Thanos was handing an inifinty stones out to people when he's obsessed with collecting them is a different story

I don't know either, but the answer had damn well better be some variation on "Surely this will get me out of the friendzone with Mistress Death!"
posted by straight at 3:25 PM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


None of that really seems to jump out at me as particularly unique to Captain America.

It's definitely not unique to Captain America, but I would argue that the particular type of this loss is fairly unique to Captain America. Steve's personal pain isn't all the result of a specific villain taking the people he loves from him. No one is fridged in service of Steve's manpain, except for perhaps Bucky, who is hilariously and distressingly literally fridged. Still, Bucky aside because he's going to get his own post-fridging arc, Steve made a choice to sacrifice his life for the lives of countless others, and it's that choice that has cost him and continues to cost him. Time has taken everything from him, even his death, and the Steve Rogers we see in the movies is the man who has to endure that, and act with heroism anyway.

If that's all still dull to you, fair enough! But one of the other things that makes him decidedly not dull to me is the tension between Steve Rogers and Captain America, which I think Civil War is going to dive into. It's not your standard secret identity conflict, and it's not even really about living up to a legacy. It's about the fact that Steve Rogers has sacrificed literally everything to Captain America. He's been turned into a symbol more than a man, and it happened, from his perspective, very abruptly. It's like if you go away on a trip and then, on your return, find out people see you as the equivalent of some sort of Uncle Sam-Jesus-Santa hybrid: a figure more myth than human. And no one really even remembers the plain old flawed human you used to be.

So what's the one thing he won't sacrifice to the shield? Bucky Barnes. That, I think, is the core of Steve's conflict in Civil War.
posted by yasaman at 3:28 PM on March 10, 2016 [19 favorites]


I did not know I needed an AU version of Antique Bakery Starring Cap, Bucky and maybe Banner until I read this thread.
posted by ursus_comiter at 3:35 PM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well said, straight. When I was a Canadian comic reading kid, Captain America was seen as... not cool. We thought he was the personification of what Superman apparently means to Frank Miller: America the Fist, forcing it's will on everyone else. It took many years before I realized the character wasn't like that at all. He's actually a guy who tries to personify the enlightenment ideals that the United States is founded on, fighting an endless battle to make the broken real world more like the ideal one he represents. That's a fertile situation for drama.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:49 PM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Captain America has eaten Steve Rogers alive. That's his central tragedy.

This is a beautiful bit of commentary right here. And I again have to give props to Chris Evans, who has done such a great job showing that profound sense of loss underpinning everything Steve is in the modern time. I never would have believed he'd make me fall in love with this character to this extent, but he has. That moment in Winter Soldier when he's visiting Peggy in the nursing home and realizes her mind has wandered again? That horribly sad little smile he gives her when she "recognizes" him all over again? It kills me dead. He was absolutely the perfect guy for this role.

Steve and Bucky are both such tragic characters, and I've been so heartened by all of the recent interviews with the Russos where they stress how important they are to each other. I know it's futile to wish for peace or happiness for these two - that's what fanfic's for - but I can't wait to see where they go here. I love Steve when he's stubborn and self-righteous and self-sacrificing, and I want to see him fucking *angry* at what his best friend's been turned into.

I've seen some great fan commentary about Erskine's line in the first Cap movie, where he refers to Steve as, "not a perfect soldier, but a good man." And that's really the heart of Steve Rogers for me. He was chosen for the program because he wasn't a bully, and he's borne out Erskine's faith in him. But if you flip that around, it becomes the Evil Mirror Universe version of what Hydra turned Bucky Barnes into - not a good man, but a perfect soldier. Because Bucky may not have been a chip-on-his-shoulder, fight-the-world little guy like Steve (in fact, I like the headcanon that Bucky was drafted into WWII while Steve was trying desperately to enlist on his own and getting turned down), but he *was* a good man in his own right, and that man was erased. And, according to what the Russos and Sebastian Stan have said in interviews, the question now is figuring out what kind of man this new character is. He can't ever go back to being just Bucky again.

I CAN'T WAIT.

And maybe it's time to dust off a couple of unfinished fics of my own and post them already. Seeing the latest trailer has gotten me inspired all over again, and I have some free time coming up.
posted by Salieri at 3:49 PM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hmm.
1. Why do you consider them absurd?


I should clarify that I really meant to comment on the movies more than the comics themselves, sorry if that didn't come across. I think they're absurd in the sense of being...you know, wildly improbable but self-consciously 'realist,' full of contrived plot points and weird coincidences that serve the narrative, hewing close to various conventions that don't really make sense (e.g., the costumes) but still insistent on having the real world humming along under the hood. That's what I meant. It's not something that makes them fatally flawed, or impossible to enjoy, or even entirely different from most mass-market movies, but I think they're a bit absurd in those senses.

2. Are all stories absurd?

I don't think so, not at all. Do you think that we'd have to say that all stories are absurd if we say these ones are?

I mean, I've read and enjoyed DC and Marvel comics; I'm not above that or whatever. I also like non-DC/Marvel comics. And I like stories immensely, in a broad sense. I love hearing people tell stories, and the way we tell stories also fascinates me in sociological terms. Some story-telling is purely commercial, and sometimes the demands of commerce produce absurdities.
posted by clockzero at 4:08 PM on March 10, 2016


Bats vs Supes just wouldn't last long

Couldn't you say the same of Cap vs Iron Man?
posted by Paul Slade at 4:15 PM on March 10, 2016


Anyone else having trouble getting excited about the MCU films after having watched Daredevil and Jessica Jones this past year? This trailer just seems so visually dull in comparison to the Netflix shows.

Yup. I was kinda enthused by the first trailer, but this one just didn't do anything for me. Count me amongst those who want a Netflix She-Hulk show.

Though I'd also settle for a Hulk film with She-Hulk in it if She-Hulk was the actual protagonist, sort of like Furisoa was in Mad Max: Fury Road.
posted by homunculus at 4:16 PM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Though I'd also settle for a Hulk film with She-Hulk in it if She-Hulk was the actual protagonist, sort of like Furisoa was in Mad Max: Fury Road.

Would it be called You Wouldn't Like Me When I'm Mad Max?
posted by zombieflanders at 4:22 PM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Why did I keep thinking this was a time-travel movie where the Marvel heroes would go back and refight Antietam and Gettysburg and Spotsylvania?
posted by stargell at 4:27 PM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Anyone else having trouble getting excited about the MCU films after having watched Daredevil and Jessica Jones this past year? This trailer just seems so visually dull in comparison to the Netflix shows.

Same here. In fairness, I can't blame just that, but I feel like the movies are taking themselves a little to seriously. And in all the wrong ways. Age of Ultron was a mess. I didn't hate it, but it was flawed. And not flawed in the same way Avengers was, where I enjoyed it in spite of its flaws.

I enjoyed the early Iron Mans (Men?); I adored Captain America 1 and 2, loved Thor 1 and was really disappointed in Thor two. I feel let down by the more recent movies though. They seem to want to be serious without the heart of the earlier films. Part of me wonders if they didn't have a mandate to make the movies and superheroes accessable to a wider audience, and now that they are, they can just be big budget B movies.

I'll see it, but unless some amazing reviews come out before its release, it will be a "stream later" movie.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 4:30 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think so, not at all. Do you think that we'd have to say that all stories are absurd if we say these ones are?

No, not all, was just curious what you meant by the absurd descriptor, thanks for clarifying.


Bats vs Supes just wouldn't last long

Couldn't you say the same of Cap vs Iron Man?


Perhaps, but Cap at least is kinda superhuman and he's going against regular guy in a super suit. Bats is essentially going up against a god, which always strained credibility for me personally.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:35 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bats vs Supes just wouldn't last long

Couldn't you say the same of Cap vs Iron Man?


Captain America is fast, but not as ridiculously fast as Superman, plus Iron Man has computer assist for his reflexes, so I think Tony has a chance against Steve.

But, yeah, for the most part, speed is an overwhelming advantage. There's no excuse for Batman to lay an unwanted finger on Superman ever.
posted by straight at 4:36 PM on March 10, 2016


But, yeah, for the most part, speed is an overwhelming advantage.

Eh, air power probably counts for me. Supes has it while Batman has no defense. Cap at least has the shield as an offensive weapon.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:46 PM on March 10, 2016


Count me amongst those who want a Netflix She-Hulk show.

Just adapt Charles Soule's run and you can't go wrong. It's even the right length.

Bats is essentially going up against a god, which always strained credibility for me personally.

But Batman does have a super power.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:47 PM on March 10, 2016


And also of course Superman is allergic to his home planet.
posted by dng at 4:53 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm just here for the Bucky-Cap relationship. Which looks like it may be rockier than just 'hey, remember me? You do remember me! then let's fight other people together'.

Poor Bucky. He's such a great allegory for terrible things that happen to you out of your control and make people judge you. I prize his character for that, and I hope they don't just make him the villain of the day - his redemption is important to me. But, it shouldn't be easy, either!
posted by taterpie at 5:16 PM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Spider-man actually sounds like the little kid he is

Spider-man was an adult during the Civil War storyline in the comics. If Tony had treated a kid the way he treated Peter when Peter left him for Steve, it would have been revolting.

... that kind of sounds like a soap opera. Which would be an improvement upon the comics.

Back to the movie. I hope the kid Spider-man signals, among other things, that movie!Tony doesn't go as far as comics!Tony did.
posted by fatehunter at 5:26 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hrm. RDJ may have dropped a small(ish) spoiler. (That site is half serious, half The Comics Onion, but this appears straight-up.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:28 PM on March 10, 2016


io9 zooms in on Spidey, and you can see how the eyes are supposed to work in-universe.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:36 PM on March 10, 2016


Back to the movie. I hope the kid Spider-man signals, among other things, that movie!Tony doesn't go as far as comics!Tony did.

Well, movie Tony just brought a kid to major confrontation and instructed him to get involved, under the rationale that super types need overseeing. Yeah.

io9 zooms in on Spidey, and you can see how the eyes are supposed to work in-universe.

If you listen in the trailer, you can here the servos moving.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:40 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Poor Bucky. He's such a great allegory for terrible things that happen to you out of your control and make people judge you

"Sometimes you can't control what happens to you but that doesn't stop you from doing what's right"
posted by nicebookrack at 5:43 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


If you listen in the trailer, you can here the servos moving.

Yeah, but it wasn't clear what exactly was going on. This seems like an almost steampunk solution.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:46 PM on March 10, 2016


From the io9 link: These aren’t your Deadpool-style CGI eyes, although the effect is likely enhanced by CG trickery.

Hmm, you think?
posted by beerperson at 5:46 PM on March 10, 2016


Wait in retrospect, Black Panther is on Stark's side? What the ever loving fuck?
posted by corb at 5:55 PM on March 10, 2016


Wait in retrospect, Black Panther is on Stark's side? What the ever loving fuck?

He's a head of state, so it makes sense.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:01 PM on March 10, 2016


Rumor has it that Panther has a serious hate-on for Winter Soldier, presumably for assassin reasons.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:02 PM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


"Sometimes you can't control what happens to you but that doesn't stop you from doing what's right"

Except in the case of brainwashing, when it does!

Seriously, for me, Bucky's a great allegory for rape victims or even better, people stuck in abusive relationships., without having to go through the un-fun of watching yet another woman be raped and or abused (which I couldn't handle in Jessica Jones, I'm just tapped out on the literal and am alllll about the allegorical for a bit longer).

Rumor has it that Panther has a serious hate-on for Winter Soldier, presumably for assassin reasons.

But he doesn't do that anymore...
posted by taterpie at 6:03 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oooh, maybe Bucky killed Tony's AND T'Challa's dads.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:03 PM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


That would kind of make sense, actually.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:17 PM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Bucky should definitely stop assassinating people, that's never a good way to make friends.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:22 PM on March 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Okay, I can buy that a lot more. I could be remembering wrong, but as I recall, Black Panther was pretty offended by some of Stark's shady dealing.
posted by corb at 6:22 PM on March 10, 2016


Comparing the book characters to the movie versions will only cause frustration.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:27 PM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


help me
posted by corb at 6:36 PM on March 10, 2016


Sounds a little like they remixed Requiem For A Dream again. Though the version for The Two Towers will always be my favorite treatment.

Watching it something that is not on a cellphone in the rain was a huge improvement, I don't think I noticed Tony's shiner before.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 6:52 PM on March 10, 2016


Unexplained in the movie, so just my theory, but the Ultron program/virus was in the scepter, not the Mind Stone. a scepter created by Thanos to allow others to handle the power of the stone. Why Thanos was handing an inifinty stones out to people when he's obsessed with collecting them is a different story

I took this to be the implicit meaning of the after-credits scene, with Thanos reaching into his refrigerator for the gauntlet and muttering, "I'll do it myself, then" or whatever. He had been hoping that the scepter would trigger apocalypse on Earth after which (presumably) he could stop by to pick it up again. Which is kind of true to form, isn't it, Thanos being clever as well as a bruiser - beware Titans bearing gifts.

the uneasy marriage between simplistic power fantasies and the kind of dramatic sophistication that people expect now. These stories still rely on magic, essentially: things that should be impossible can just happen, but the world that we know is still going on under the hood, so to speak

I just re-watched Skyfall and Spectre with a friend and we had a conversation about spy films that sort of ended in the same place. Superhuman protagonists and plot magic are problems that are endemic to the way we tell narrative in film - the question is how effectively you structure the work around the necessary "magic" in order to maintain suspension of disbelief. I think they did that pretty well in some of the films (The Winter Soldier especially), and managed to distract and entertain enough to dance around it in others (The Avengers, Ant-Man). At the very least, Marvel has done better on this, I think, than have the last two James Bond films.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:15 PM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait in retrospect, Black Panther is on Stark's side?

Black Panther is never on your side, but sometimes your interests coincide with those of Wakanda.
posted by straight at 9:22 PM on March 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's 2016 and I have a good feeling about this comic book adaptation because it appears to flat out ignore the comic it shares a name with. The best part of the Civil War comics was the wild speculation about where it all would go in the weeks between issues. I had so much fun with that part of things that the story actually ending with Spidey's don't-call-it-a-divorce deal with the devil was only sort of a letdown.

Thoughts on this trailer:

I hope Rhodey doesn't die! He's one of my all time favorite characters, and I'm still stinging from losing MCU Ben Urich so abruptly. I seem to recall Don Cheadle talking about prepping for Infinity War, but I can't find the article now. I'm wondering if MCU Rhodey is heading for the resurrected cyborg body horror track his comics self wound up on: dependent on the War Machine to keep what's left of him alive, waiting for Tony to finish building a new real body for him. This would echo Steve's protection of Bucky and be a much stronger "you've gone too far!" story beat than the comic had: a synthetic cyborg clone of Thor. Remember Clor, everyone? Remember how the kids couldn't get enough Clor?

I'm delighted that superhero movies have arrived at a point where we're seeing superhero community onscreen. I loved two out of three of the Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies, but as fun as they were, they missed something great that you get to see in the comics all the time: Spider-Man sharing the world with all these other incredible characters and cracking wise about how grim the more established heroes get about their jobs. It's great to see our old pal Spidey back onscreen, but to see him among all those Avengers is the new thing I can't wait to watch unfold.

I wonder if it'll be Tony or Cap's mind that he blows in the third act with a heartfelt plea to remember that with great power must come great responsibility?
posted by EatTheWeak at 12:06 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


My first thought, on seeing this (after being slightly annoyed by various sites that spoiled the Spider-Man shot) is that it looked like Nicholas Hammond's suit, a lot.

And now I am wondering why Hammond hasn't had a role/cameo in a Marvel jam. He's pretty much the most recognisable, still working (and still alive) actor from the '70s era.

Marvel's real strength has always been the small-scale character moments, which is why their TV shows are doing so well. I also miss the interesting experiments with style in the original Captain America. All the movies since the first Avengers -- other than Guardians, which was fun, and maybe Ant-Man, which I haven't seen -- have just been cookie-cutter slogs. The "house style" is getting too heavy-handed.

Remember, after the success of Iron Man (I think) when they were going to do a bunch of 'tentpole' blockbusters, and then a whole crop of smaller, sub-$60M odd films with B-listers (like Black Panther, et all)?

That idea seemed like a good idea, and in a way it happened. And I think we are all the better for it.

(Also, the last She-Hulk comic was amazing, and it is a shame it got cancelled).
posted by Mezentian at 12:09 AM on March 11, 2016


Damnit, DC just raised the bar with the R-rated trailer we all want for Batman V Superman!

And people say Cap 3 looks joyless!

(So, is Rhodey dead? I say no, because that wouldn't go down with certain sections of the American public, even though he is the disposable Iron Man).
posted by Mezentian at 12:11 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I have two more thoughts (right now):
How amazing is this Ant-Man homage?

I'm amazed at how amazing T'Challa looks in this. I've been waiting my whole life to see a Black Panther on the big screen, and they seem to have nailed him. I am just sad we might never get to see a Panther/Namor brawl.
posted by Mezentian at 12:18 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is just bullshit !
posted by Pendragon at 12:42 AM on March 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Nthing everyone's love of Chris Evans as Captain America, and my love for Chris Evans the person just doubled upon reading his response to a question posed during BuzzFeed Answer Time:

Favorite Disney princess?

That’s my favorite question so far. Probably Belle or Megara! - Chris Evans
posted by Devika at 2:25 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Chris Evans seems like a mensch and my husband and I can't figure out why we aren't besties and hanging out all the time
posted by Kitteh at 3:25 AM on March 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Because you can't have nice things, Kitteh.

Now, I must fly. I am making burritos anmd margaritas for Chris, RDJ and Scarjo. Aussie Chris is bringing over some friends later, and we're going to play Sale of the Century (Tony Barber version).
posted by Mezentian at 4:00 AM on March 11, 2016


This is just bullshit !

Oh, yeah. That does seem like it.
OTOH, idols, feet of clay.
And, if what I understand is correct, Kamela doesn't like either racial profiling or future-crime profiling.
So, it might make sense?

(Ugh. I have been so SICK of Marvel crossovers since Acts of Vengence. Can we not?)
posted by Mezentian at 4:02 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


It would probably be better to judge a story by the story and not by the deliberately-provocative cover image that was designed to generate sales, yes.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:32 AM on March 11, 2016


But then how could we talk about the story that we haven't read yet?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Vision is a cross between Jarvis and the Cosmic Mind Gem that powered Loki's mind-control staff

No.

The Vision is a cross between Jarvis J.A.R.V.I.S. and the Cosmic Mind Gem that powered Loki's mind-control staff

Yes
posted by phearlez at 7:43 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Due to timing, I can say that Civil War reads much differently as a reaction to Sandy Hook and not 9/11.

I don't see how you take Civil War as an allegory for Sandy Hook since in Civil War a bunch of kids die and they actually decide to do something.
posted by phearlez at 8:02 AM on March 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


(Ugh. I have been so SICK of Marvel crossovers since Acts of Vengence. Can we not?)

Marvel crossovers are so, so bad. The only good one I've ever read was Annihilation/Conquest. Marvel cosmic stuff is really the only place where crossovers work.

(I mean, I did like World War Hulk, but the crossover aspect wasn't what made that work.)
posted by tobascodagama at 8:10 AM on March 11, 2016


I would like crossovers in the comics a lot more if they didn't all start from the premise of "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING" and then it's immediately retconned when the next writer comes along and nothing changes.
posted by skycrashesdown at 9:13 AM on March 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I enjoyed Secret Wars and its whole "everything is Tumblr mash-ups now!" ethos, and then it went on a bit long and everything after the reset is comparatively dull.
posted by Artw at 9:26 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I would like crossovers in the comics a lot more if they didn't all start from the premise of "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING" and then it's immediately retconned when the next writer comes along and nothing changes.

The one interesting thing about Civil War was the fact that it lead to a bunch of spin-offs under The Initiaive banner, some of which were actually good. Ditto for the whole Secret Invasion->Dark Reign->Siege cycle. The core part of those crossovers were crap, but a lot of the spin-offs were good, and it was nice to see the big, dumb crossovers having lasting effects in the world for once. But the good part was that you didn't have to actually follow the central crossover story -- which was bad -- to enjoy the spin-offs.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:38 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't see how you take Civil War as an allegory for Sandy Hook since in Civil War a bunch of kids die and they actually decide to do something.

Superhero stories are about wish fulfillment as much as social commentary and political allegory. It doesn't work as a reaction to 9/11 because it targets physical might (closer to guns), not underlying physiology (closer to racial/ethnic profiling). While you might not choose to get your superpowers, most have some degree of control, and outside the mutant allegory, most actively choose to use their powers.

Plus the pro-registration group is much more sympathetic as a stand-in for Gun Control than Security Theater, and makes for a better story. Even if you take it personally the Gun Control group overreaches and becomes the bad guy.

Or were you trying to make this about guns and not Civil War?
posted by politikitty at 9:59 AM on March 11, 2016


I dislike the crossover-fests in general but I have a soft spot for Civil War on this because I SOOOOOOOO loved Front Line, a limited series along with the events. If you have Marvel Unlimited and never read it I can't say good enough things about it.

I have to also say, I feel like CW was better about the whole EVERYTHING CHANGES AND OH NOW WE'RE BACK TO WHERE WE WERE CARRY ON thing. Maybe that's because this was back at a time when I actually read Avengers books and things, but I felt like there was a shift in the "world order" that kept evolving in a somewhat coherent story way on its way back to status quo. More so than most big events that seem to just reset without any justification.

Or were you trying to make this about guns and not Civil War?

I was snarking, not "trying to make this about" something, but you go on with your fighty bad self. But I think it's snark with substance. The Civil War event involved introduced and passed legislation and the concrete as well as emotional repercussions of it that pitted former allies against each other. Sandy Hook in reality involved a lot of televised and printed arguing with very little fallout of change in perspectives on possible legislative actions from what people had thought before. I think it's therefor much more a 9/11 story than a Sandy Hook one, but I recognize that that is an opinion, not a fact. Do you?
posted by phearlez at 10:09 AM on March 11, 2016




Fuck yeah Powerman!
posted by Artw at 11:14 AM on March 11, 2016


What a strange era in fandom that it would be a bigger deal to have (Robert Downey Jr) Iron Man, (Hugh Jackman) Wolverine, and (literally anyone) Spiderman fighting alongside each other on screen as, as they have literally hundreds of times on page, than it would be to have a crossover where Superman fights Captain America.

It's a bummer that so many of the current actors will probably retire before this is possible. I want to see Ian McKellen Magneto fuck up an RDJ Tony Stark. I want to see a Samuel L Jackson Nick Fury try to intimidate a Patrick Stewart Charles Xavier. Sigh.

Can we get Robert Zemeckis on the case? He was able to get Donald and Daffy and Bugs and Mickey in a room together.

Also I'm pretty sure if we all keep talking about the Aisha Tyler She-Hulk courtroom dramedy, we CAN actually will it into being. We have the power. We just need to ease her in through Daredevil.
posted by elr at 11:22 AM on March 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


PARKER!

We just need to ease her in through Daredevil.

And/or Jessica Jones via Patsy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:28 AM on March 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


What a strange era in fandom that it would be a bigger deal to have (Robert Downey Jr) Iron Man, (Hugh Jackman) Wolverine, and (literally anyone) Spiderman fighting alongside each other on screen as, as they have literally hundreds of times on page, than it would be to have a crossover where Superman fights Captain America.

1. Wolverine isn't fighting alongside IM or Spidey in the movies.

2. Fuck no, keep Superman the shitheel far away from the nuanced character that has been carefully developed, while being amazingly portrayed by Chris Evans.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:00 PM on March 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Question to the thread: When did Iron and Cap first meet in the movies. I wanna say it was off screen in the Avengers, but not sure.

Basically, my line of thought is that they were fond of each other at the beginning, but managed to work together and be sort of friends, while each had some obvious disdain for the other.

But now Iron Man the rebel working for the government while Cap the soldier has become the rebel.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:08 PM on March 11, 2016


1. Wolverine isn't fighting alongside IM or Spidey in the movies.

Yes, I believe that's crucial to the point being made.
posted by zakur at 12:09 PM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Huh. it appears my reflexes aren't that fast.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:12 PM on March 11, 2016


Question to the thread: When did Iron and Cap first meet in the movies. I wanna say it was off screen in the Avengers, but not sure.

Yeah, despite "I'm here to talk to you about the Avengers Initiative" at the end of IM1, it doesn't look like Stark had spent any time hanging out with SHIELD between the end of The First Avenger and the Chitauri invasion.
posted by Etrigan at 12:23 PM on March 11, 2016


I think we see Cap's first meeting with all of the Avengers onscreen in the first Avengers movie. It's either implied or stated that he got files on them beforehand, but the way I remember it, Nick Fury goes to collect Steve from his gym of punching his feelings away (which was not long after he'd been thawed out), Steve, Natasha, and Bruce head to the helicarrier, and then Steve heads to Germany with Natasha to catch Loki. That's when Tony and Thor show up.

They were all sniping at each other courtesy of Loki's influence, but even by the end of Age of Ultron, I didn't have the sense that Steve and Tony are anything other than friendly colleagues with an occasionally somewhat contentious relationship.
posted by yasaman at 12:33 PM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


, Nick Fury goes to collect Steve from his gym of punching his feelings away (which was not long after he'd been thawed out)

My wife firmly disagrees and calls this the Butt Shake scene.

They were all sniping at each other courtesy of Loki's influence, but even by the end of Age of Ultron, I didn't have the sense that Steve and Tony are anything other than friendly colleagues with an occasionally somewhat contentious relationship.

I think there's a quiet tension between usually, because Tony has a god complex and doesn't feel he should have to listen to anyone, particularly some poor kid from Brookly who he's only talking to because of some "stuff that came out of bottle". There's all sorts of professional and personal stuff going on between them, though they've come to respect each other.

Tony's a bit of bully, something that no doubt annoy's Steve. And Steve is one of the few people who legitimately upstage him, become the center of attention and Steve is barely even trying to do that. That's gotta grate.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:54 PM on March 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Important question: if Underoos exist in the Marvel Universe, who was on them?
posted by WCityMike at 7:04 PM on March 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Timely Comics characters.
posted by Artw at 7:06 PM on March 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Tony's a bit of bully, something that no doubt annoy's Steve. And Steve is one of the few people who legitimately upstage him, become the center of attention and Steve is barely even trying to do that. That's gotta grate.

Also you can be sure Tony knows that his dad LOVED Cap and probably blathered on about his wartime hero buddy, then Cap shows up and isn't impressed with Tony. I bet that stung.

Am I the only one who is happier and happier the more the MCU veers away from the comics?
posted by taterpie at 7:15 PM on March 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Important question: if Underoos exist in the Marvel Universe, who was on them?

One of the early episodes in Agents of SHIELD had a kid looking at Avengers toys, so there's that.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:40 PM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Important question: if Underoos exist in the Marvel Universe, who was on them?

The Fantastic Four. C3PO. Superman.
posted by Mezentian at 7:43 PM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tony does not actually know what a friend is, thinks it's something like an employee. They've worked together, Tony thinks he was in charge, therefore Cap is his friend - at least until some horrible betrayal like Not doing what he says.
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on March 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Important question: if Underoos exist in the Marvel Universe, who was on them?

One of the early episodes in Agents of SHIELD had a kid looking at Avengers toys, so there's that.


One of the things I've always liked about the Marvel universe is that it's always clearly established that there are in-universe fandoms and merchandising for most of these superheroes. Because why wouldn't there be?
posted by tobascodagama at 4:30 AM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is that in-universe merchandising officially authorised by the heroes themselves and, if so, do they get a cut of the profits?
posted by Paul Slade at 4:52 AM on March 12, 2016


I feel a story that turns out to be an allegory about creators rights coming on!
posted by Artw at 4:59 AM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is that in-universe merchandising officially authorised by the heroes themselves and, if so, do they get a cut of the profits?

The ones whose identities are public, yes. (As usual, Spider-Man is SOL)

One of my very favorite things about Captain America is the fact that for a while, Steve Rogers was the artist on the in-universe Captain America comics.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:07 AM on March 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


One of my very favorite things about Captain America is the fact that for a while, Steve Rogers was the artist on the in-universe Captain America comics.

I love the way that Timely's (Marvel's predecessor) romance comic star Patsy Walker was folded into the Marvel universe, and so were her comics. So, in-universe she was a kid whose mom wrote a bunch of comics about her.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:16 AM on March 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm surprised that so few people died during the Battle For NY, the Hydra incursion and the Sokovia Incident.
Less than 400 people, or so the trailer tells us.
posted by Mezentian at 4:47 AM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, those numbers seem incredibly low, what with space slugs toppling buildings presumably full of people.

A big part of the Sokovia battle was the Avengers getting civilians out of the still standing buildings and onto a Helicarrier, so a minimum loss of life doesn't seem that odd to me.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:48 AM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Among the many things that are not accurate in the comic book universe is how effective evacuations are. I assume few tv and comic writers ever lived in hurricane country.
posted by phearlez at 7:17 PM on March 13, 2016


Honestly, I far, far prefer unrealistically effective evacuations/low casualty rates to "lol half this city got leveled, casualties are probably in the tens of thousands, nbd, we will never substantively address this in-universe, ever." I have a huge distaste for the disaster porn of casually destroying huge swathes of property without ever acknowledging the human cost. It's a hollow, cheap raising of stakes, an exercise in empty spectacle. Either make some gesture towards preservation of life a la the MCU movies, or show the cost in human lives and suffering.
posted by yasaman at 7:25 PM on March 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


DC's going to show it by having Batman kick Superman's ass.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 7:37 PM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]




, I far, far prefer unrealistically effective evacuations/low casualty rates to "lol half this city got leveled, casualties are probably in the tens of thousands, nbd, we will never substantively address this in-universe, ever."

Hey, didn't we all sign up to some sort of accord to stop criticising the DCMU until after BVs:DOJ-featuring Won-de-Wmn and Aqualad?
posted by Mezentian at 2:52 AM on March 14, 2016


Honestly, I far, far prefer unrealistically effective evacuations/low casualty rates to "lol half this city got leveled, casualties are probably in the tens of thousands, nbd, we will never substantively address this in-universe, ever."

To be fair, part of BvS will be about addressing the wide spread destruction 'caused by Superman's fight in Man of Steel.

As to why Superman never expressed any horror or dismay about the destruction in the actual movie, well...
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:25 AM on March 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I still think the way the evacuation drives the plot at the end of AoU is the one thing that movie got right. So much of the big fight in Avengers 1 was focused on containing damage and minimizing casualties, and I *loved* that, for a lot of reasons: it made the characters more sympathetic, it gave the story more ways to *show* them being smart and capable, and it acknowledged the human cost that action movies usually gloss over.

So in AoU, we got a villain who knew his opponents wanted to avoid collateral damage, and went out of his way to create a situation where they would have to choose between stopping him and evacuating civilians. That was the only thing Ultron did that actually seemed smart.
posted by nonasuch at 7:40 AM on March 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes, I found it deeply moving and just so *right* that the team was focused on saving as many people as possible, at all costs. I don't think Cap said it directly, but his attitude was very much "This is what we do, this is what you signed up for, now do it, period." Chris Evans just portrays the character so well. And I scoffed at the idea of doing a movie about him, never read a Captain America comic, but man, the movies have really brought him to life in an incredible way.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:26 AM on March 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Either make some gesture towards preservation of life a la the MCU movies, or show the cost in human lives and suffering.

I don't disagree on the issue of not enjoying disaster porn and I agree that the seriousness with which they take the civilian risk is a big plus. However I'm not sure I can entirely buy that this is the way to do it. Isn't knocking over entire downtown buildings without recognizing what that would have to really mean just a different flavor of disaster porn? An infrastructure variant on the taking fifty punches without ever developing a lasting bruise?

Like most things in comic book worlds I think you get to hand-wave it off till you try to cherry-pick, and calling out a completely implausible casualty count qualifies as cherry picking to me. Until that point I'll fanwank that they only dropped giant monsters onto buildings they somehow knew were empty, or Iron Man is monitoring evacuation updates and drawing them in the more empty direction, etc on and on. Once you want to quantify this to make a plot point out of it I think you have to do it in a way that doesn't incline people to roll their eyes.

In fairness, we're focusing on something that's a visual not dialog. I'm not sure if that makes it worse (they didn't HAVE to use such stupidly low numbers) or better (they're not trying to make us feel by verbally using numbers low enough that it feels like a tragedy and not a statistic).

The numbers are actually WAY less than 400. 274 to be exact. They show 74 for Manhattan(Av1), 23 for D.C. (Cap2), 177 for Sokovia (Av2). I guess they're only counting civilian non-combatants because otherwise you couldn't be that low for Cap2, given the Helicarriers being crashed and SHIELD HQ being destroyed. But that Manhattan number is obnoxiously low and to me that makes it porny.
posted by phearlez at 2:14 PM on March 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


So I was rewatching the 2008 Iron Man today. I had in the back of my head been pondering Stark's move to being the we-should-all-be-registered voice but I see now that the seeds of this get planted about 45 minutes into the beginnings of the MCU: when he holds a press conference upon returning from three months' captivity in Afghanistan, he talks about his change of heart:
I saw young Americans killed by the very weapons I created to defend them and protect them. And I saw that I had become part of a system that is comfortable with zero accountability.
That was nicely played, with a payoff eight years and a dozen films later.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:48 PM on March 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wow, line does link up nicely to the character and presumably where he's at in Civil War. It's those little touches that currently have enjoying the MCU so much and dreading the DCU approach that arrives this week.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:27 PM on March 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


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