"How audacious."
March 18, 2016 1:36 PM Subscribe
The British Film Institute has compiled a list of 30 best LGBT films of all time in celebration of the 30th anniversary of their Flare festival. BFI has placed Todd Haynes's Carol at the top spot, forcing Slate to ask, is it really the best LGBT film of all time?
Over 100 film experts including critics, writers and programmers such as Joanna Hogg, Mark Cousins, Peter Strickland, Richard Dyer, Nick James and Laura Mulvey, as well as past and present BFI Flare programmers, have voted the Top 30 LGBT Films of All Time. The poll’s results represent 84 years of cinema and 12 countries, from countries including Thailand, Japan, Sweden and Spain, as well as films that showed at BFI Flare such as Orlando (1992), Beautiful Thing (1996), Weekend (2011) and Blue Is the Warmest Colour (2013).
Over 100 film experts including critics, writers and programmers such as Joanna Hogg, Mark Cousins, Peter Strickland, Richard Dyer, Nick James and Laura Mulvey, as well as past and present BFI Flare programmers, have voted the Top 30 LGBT Films of All Time. The poll’s results represent 84 years of cinema and 12 countries, from countries including Thailand, Japan, Sweden and Spain, as well as films that showed at BFI Flare such as Orlando (1992), Beautiful Thing (1996), Weekend (2011) and Blue Is the Warmest Colour (2013).
What about The Ritz? On his deathbed Carmine Vespucci's father tells him to "get Proclo". With "the hit" on, Gaetano tells a cab driver to take him where Carmine can't find him. He arrives at the Ritz, a gay bathhouse where he is pursued amorously by "chubby chaser" Paul B. Price and by entertainer Googie Gomez who believes him to be a broadway producer. His guides through the Ritz are gatekeeper Abe, habitue Chris, and bellhop/go-go-boys Tiger and Duff. Squeaky-voiced detective Michael Brick and his employer Carmine do locate Gateano at the Ritz, as does his wife Vivian. And lets not forget The Sargent with Rod Steiger
posted by robbyrobs at 2:04 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by robbyrobs at 2:04 PM on March 18, 2016
The saddest thing about Paris Is Burning is realizing how many of those folks are dead - and that after Dorian Corey died, they found a (literal) corpse of a dead person in his closet.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:05 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 2:05 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm not really qualified to talk about film, but a lot of these choices feel like films about LGBT people that straight people like.
I want to see a list of movies made by LGBT people. I feel like if you asked my (mostly young, mostly queer) friends what they thought was the best queer movie of all time, a fair number of them would say Jupiter Ascending.
glad to see Paris is Burning ranked so high, though
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 2:10 PM on March 18, 2016 [21 favorites]
I want to see a list of movies made by LGBT people. I feel like if you asked my (mostly young, mostly queer) friends what they thought was the best queer movie of all time, a fair number of them would say Jupiter Ascending.
glad to see Paris is Burning ranked so high, though
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 2:10 PM on March 18, 2016 [21 favorites]
I thought this blog post about the list was quite good (so good I almost posted it to MetaFilter and, even more rare, left a comment on a blog which is even rarer for me in 2016).
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:11 PM on March 18, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:11 PM on March 18, 2016 [8 favorites]
I can't follow the link from work. Is The Rocky Horror Picture Show on the list?
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:11 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:11 PM on March 18, 2016
So happy Paris Is Burning made the list and is in the top five. It is truly one of my favorite documentaries of all time, not to mention one of the greatest documentaries of all time, which comments on so many parts of society at once. I hate that people tend to focus on the spectacle of the Drag Balls, because when you do that you miss the real discussion of issues of poverty and race and popular culture, etc...
I was an American Studies major at the time, and it really is the quintessential American Studies documentary of all time.
The fact that it was snubbed for an Academy Award was maddening.
posted by tittergrrl at 2:12 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was an American Studies major at the time, and it really is the quintessential American Studies documentary of all time.
The fact that it was snubbed for an Academy Award was maddening.
posted by tittergrrl at 2:12 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I want to see a list of movies made by LGBT people. I feel like if you asked my (mostly young, mostly queer) friends what they thought was the best queer movie of all time, a fair number of them would say Jupiter Ascending.
This statement demolishes the stereotype that LGBT folks have a natural sense of style. However, I must admit to being intrigued.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:13 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
This statement demolishes the stereotype that LGBT folks have a natural sense of style. However, I must admit to being intrigued.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:13 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I really liked both Death in Venice and Mulholland Drive, but as a straight guy I have to wonder what it is that makes these "LGBT films". On the other hand, I can totally get behind "Happy Together" being on this list -- in every sense of the phrase.
posted by Slothrup at 2:17 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by Slothrup at 2:17 PM on March 18, 2016
Paris is Burning is an important film to me because not only did it show me kind of LBGT culture completely different than the one i'm around, I learned so much from the controversies around the racism and voyeurism of its director and her actions around the film itself the people of the communities featured in it.
posted by thug unicorn at 2:20 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by thug unicorn at 2:20 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
I really liked both Death in Venice and Mulholland Drive, but as a straight guy I have to wonder what it is that makes these "LGBT films". On the other hand, I can totally get behind "Happy Together" being on this list -- in every sense of the phrase.
posted by Slothrup at 5:17 PM on March 18 [+] [!]
Because the primary romantic relationship in Mulholland Drive is between two women?
posted by edbles at 2:22 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by Slothrup at 5:17 PM on March 18 [+] [!]
Because the primary romantic relationship in Mulholland Drive is between two women?
posted by edbles at 2:22 PM on March 18, 2016
No Hedwig, no Better Than Chocolate, no Bound,or Girl Bar. ... Nah. I agree with the demon above who said it looks like a list of films that straight people like.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:26 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:26 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
Better than Chocolate and But I'm a Cheerleader and The Incredibly True Adventure of Two Girls in Love are the only three gay movies that can be re-watched due to not being the most depressing shit ever aren't on this list, therefore these people's opinions are invalid.
posted by edbles at 2:28 PM on March 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by edbles at 2:28 PM on March 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
I totally agree with the sentiment that this seems like a list of LGBT films that straight audiences and critics like. Especially when you consider they include 3 or so films that have cis actors playing trans roles. Although that could also be chalked up to general ignorance/prejudice within the taste-making segment of the LG community.
posted by lilies.lilies at 2:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by lilies.lilies at 2:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
the more I think about it the grumpier I get about this list
where the hell is John Waters, for god's sake
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 2:34 PM on March 18, 2016 [25 favorites]
where the hell is John Waters, for god's sake
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 2:34 PM on March 18, 2016 [25 favorites]
Am I watching the wrong gay movies? Where is "The Way He Looks" on this list? And for all that "Kissing Jessica Stein" ends up with Jessica realizing she's not actually gay, it's still a movie about women exploring queerness for themselves (it's a polarizing movie I know but I do love it).
The only ones I've seen that actually made the list are "Weekend" which I've never finished and "Show Me Love", which I adore and watch repeatedly. And of course I've seen inexplicable almost-made-the-list "But I'm A Cheerleader" about a thousandy-hundred times (is very technical measurement).
Am I blind or is "Bound" not on there? I've never seen it myself but it always comes up as one that makes every queer movie list...most days anyway.
"The Gymnast"? Hello? Come on, list, throw me one.
posted by angeline at 2:42 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
The only ones I've seen that actually made the list are "Weekend" which I've never finished and "Show Me Love", which I adore and watch repeatedly. And of course I've seen inexplicable almost-made-the-list "But I'm A Cheerleader" about a thousandy-hundred times (is very technical measurement).
Am I blind or is "Bound" not on there? I've never seen it myself but it always comes up as one that makes every queer movie list...most days anyway.
"The Gymnast"? Hello? Come on, list, throw me one.
posted by angeline at 2:42 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh god, all I can say is that I'm so glad that other queer people agree that this list seems to be mainly established by straight people, because that's exactly what I thought when I skimmed through it.
When I heard about Jenny's Wedding coming out last year, I was so excited to see a film come out that seemed from the commercials to be a lesbian romcom. In fact it was a depressing film about how Jenny's straight parents kinda learned how to be good people and accept their daughter's relationship. It's 2016, for fuck's sake, why are straight people making this same movie over and over again? (At least it didn't make this list.)
posted by possibilityleft at 2:44 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
When I heard about Jenny's Wedding coming out last year, I was so excited to see a film come out that seemed from the commercials to be a lesbian romcom. In fact it was a depressing film about how Jenny's straight parents kinda learned how to be good people and accept their daughter's relationship. It's 2016, for fuck's sake, why are straight people making this same movie over and over again? (At least it didn't make this list.)
posted by possibilityleft at 2:44 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Am I blind or is "Bound" not on there? I've never seen it myself but it always comes up as one that makes every queer movie list...most days anyway.
It also shows up in honorable mentions land.
I thought this blog post about the list was quite good (so good I almost posted it to MetaFilter and, even more rare, left a comment on a blog which is even rarer for me in 2016).
posted by MCMikeNamara at 5:11 PM on March 18 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
This is a pullquote from the excellent blog MCMikeNamara links above:
posted by edbles at 2:49 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
It also shows up in honorable mentions land.
I thought this blog post about the list was quite good (so good I almost posted it to MetaFilter and, even more rare, left a comment on a blog which is even rarer for me in 2016).
posted by MCMikeNamara at 5:11 PM on March 18 [3 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
This is a pullquote from the excellent blog MCMikeNamara links above:
When I was a not-out seventeen-year-old I went to see Patrice Chereau's CEUX QUI M'AIMENT PRENDRONT LE TRAIN - a beautiful, now somewhat neglected film infused with melancholy and rage. Death hangs over the whole enterprise, as family and friends of a man who has recently died all travel by train to his funeral. The ghost of AIDS looms over the film; the man's friends are bohemian, predominantly gay. In a scene early on in the film, two characters, one in a couple and the other single, are so consumed with desire that they head off to the train's toilets to fuck. The scene came as a shock to me, in part because it was so in-your-face, but also because it was a turn-on, of a kind that I had basically never had the opportunity to experience at the cinema. The film itself is magnificent by any critical criteria - extremely intelligent, unflinching, with astonishingly raw and honest performances; but what I'm trying to say is that "LGBT", as a category, doesn't really start to explain a compulsion, a personal understanding, that perhaps is not itself critical but sometimes necessary. (Side note: when Patrice Chereau died a few years back, very few obituaries mentioned his sexuality at all.)Basically the "this was my first..." is missing from this list.
posted by edbles at 2:49 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
When I heard about Jenny's Wedding coming out last year, I was so excited to see a film come out that seemed from the commercials to be a lesbian romcom. In fact it was a depressing film about how Jenny's straight parents kinda learned how to be good people and accept their daughter's relationship. It's 2016, for fuck's sake, why are straight people making this same movie over and over again? (At least it didn't make this list.)
Seriously where the fuck is our light-hearted LGBT Bridget Jones?
posted by edbles at 2:50 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Seriously where the fuck is our light-hearted LGBT Bridget Jones?
posted by edbles at 2:50 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
I know of an upcoming book that gave me the same sort of thrill that reading "Bridget Jones' Diary" did and in fact I have described it as the queer version of BJD...but a book is not a movie. *sigh* And as much as I love books, I WANT THE MOVIES DAMN IT.
Also I did not realize I think that "Jupiter Ascending" was supposed to be a best-beloved queer movie but I will admit I enjoyed Tuppence Middleton's naked backside so...
posted by angeline at 2:53 PM on March 18, 2016
Also I did not realize I think that "Jupiter Ascending" was supposed to be a best-beloved queer movie but I will admit I enjoyed Tuppence Middleton's naked backside so...
posted by angeline at 2:53 PM on March 18, 2016
I was prepared to go all hatey on this list but I can accept it. Mildly disappointed that David Moreton's Edge of Seventeen is not on there, but that's one of those 1990s artifacts that probably doesn't wear all that well with time. No Gregg Araki on the list, though, is close to unacceptable. So is no film adapted from Dennis Cooper.
posted by blucevalo at 2:57 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by blucevalo at 2:57 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's categorized as "best LGBT," which is open to all kinds of interpretations.
Do we mean, a movie deliberately about the lives of LGBT characters within a straight-oriented culture, and their specific contrasted experience with that culture? Then, sure, Carol is a good entry.
But do we mean, best movie with LGBT characters, period? That's not necessarily specifically about characters being LGBT? Where being LGBT is parallel to the main plot? One could throw down Philadelphia, the one with the Oscar-winning performance (by a straight man), and the biggest -- by far -- box-office number of all the movies being considered, which doesn't make the list.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:00 PM on March 18, 2016
Do we mean, a movie deliberately about the lives of LGBT characters within a straight-oriented culture, and their specific contrasted experience with that culture? Then, sure, Carol is a good entry.
But do we mean, best movie with LGBT characters, period? That's not necessarily specifically about characters being LGBT? Where being LGBT is parallel to the main plot? One could throw down Philadelphia, the one with the Oscar-winning performance (by a straight man), and the biggest -- by far -- box-office number of all the movies being considered, which doesn't make the list.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:00 PM on March 18, 2016
ok to elaborate on the Jupiter Ascending point (which on further reflection is a bit hyperbolic), I mean "LGBT films" as in films made by LGBT people, the same way we mean "films made in France" when we say "French films," not "films about people in France."
sorry for the minor derail, carry on with the list-improving
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 3:03 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
sorry for the minor derail, carry on with the list-improving
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 3:03 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Pride was the feel-good movie of 2024, but I guess that was more a LGL (lesbian gay labour) movie, so maybe it doesn't count.
Also, no love for Saving Face?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:03 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, no love for Saving Face?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:03 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seriously where the fuck is our light-hearted LGBT Bridget Jones?I came here to ask the same question. Can some MeFite film-buff compile a list of light-hearted LGBTQ films, please? Bonus points if any of them are from this decennium.
posted by Martijn at 3:04 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because the primary romantic relationship in Mulholland Drive is between two women?
I guess I felt it seemed a touch too male-gazey.
posted by Slothrup at 3:04 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess I felt it seemed a touch too male-gazey.
posted by Slothrup at 3:04 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Because the primary romantic relationship in Mulholland Drive is between two women?
ya' know...they *are* women. but the primary relationship is - at it's core - between an amnesiac and a psychotic.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:08 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
ya' know...they *are* women. but the primary relationship is - at it's core - between an amnesiac and a psychotic.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:08 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
OH. Gotcha on the LGBTQ angle of "Jupiter Ascending" now. Sorry, I've had a challenging week and I don't brain so good...and given that I've actually been talking about the Wachowskis this week I feel super extra dim for not comprehending.
Still very here for Tuppence Middleton in all ways though.
Lighthearted LGBTQ movies...I seem to recall enjoying a cute little comedy called "Is It Just Me" a few years back. And I don't know if it's lighthearted but I recently enjoyed "Puccini For Beginners" and was about to look into "Gray Matters".
Hm. These movies are several years old. I thought we were doing better than that lately.
posted by angeline at 3:09 PM on March 18, 2016
Still very here for Tuppence Middleton in all ways though.
Lighthearted LGBTQ movies...I seem to recall enjoying a cute little comedy called "Is It Just Me" a few years back. And I don't know if it's lighthearted but I recently enjoyed "Puccini For Beginners" and was about to look into "Gray Matters".
Hm. These movies are several years old. I thought we were doing better than that lately.
posted by angeline at 3:09 PM on March 18, 2016
Seconding a call for Pride, if you haven't seen it I highly recommend it. It's lighthearted and imperfect, but it gets at the idea of community in a way I so rarely see in the many stories about queer sadness and isolation.
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:11 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:11 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
related: Audostraddle's list of lesbian movies on netflix streaming, ranked.
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:14 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by you're a kitty! at 3:14 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
I enjoyed Tuppence Middleton's naked backside so...
In a truly just world she would have sisters Penny and Shilling.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:29 PM on March 18, 2016
In a truly just world she would have sisters Penny and Shilling.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:29 PM on March 18, 2016
>Pride was the feel-good movie of 2024
Your Netflix is much more awesome than mine
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:32 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Your Netflix is much more awesome than mine
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:32 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
The BFI list is pretty uneven, but I'm delighted to see Fucking Åmål/Show Me Love in the top 15--not only one of my favorite queer films of all time, but also just a great movie about teenagers, high school and its discontents, and feeling stuck in a small town. And no tragic queer ending! The first time I saw it, the triumphant bathroom-exit scene made me want to stand up and cheer out loud in the goddamn theater.
Seriously where the fuck is our light-hearted LGBT Bridget Jones?
Saving Face!
posted by karayel at 3:33 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seriously where the fuck is our light-hearted LGBT Bridget Jones?
Saving Face!
posted by karayel at 3:33 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm just going to list my top LGBT movie, which is Lilies a French-Canadian movie that will probably not make any lists, but definitely hit me the most of any Queer film I've seen. (The cast is all male, playing female-bodied persons at times, but it's for plot reasons and makes sense.)
I agree with the sentiment that this is a list of LGBT films that straight people like.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:36 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with the sentiment that this is a list of LGBT films that straight people like.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:36 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with the sentiment that this is a list of LGBT films that straight people like.
Hey, if you're looking for a little more context here, I highly recommend clicking through to the "all voters and votes" page. Not only will you be able to learn more about the individual voters and assess their likely expertise, but you can see which voters have tastes that seem to align closely with yours, and then power through the films on their lists that you haven't seen. Idiosyncratic individual lists are often more revelatory than consensus picks anyway.
One could throw down Philadelphia, the one with the Oscar-winning performance (by a straight man), and the biggest -- by far -- box-office number of all the movies being considered, which doesn't make the list.
But, oh man, Philadelphia is a terrible, patronizing message movie. I've never seen a gay-themed movie so thoroughly compromise itself through a bone-deep fear of alienating the intended (straight) audience.
I want to see a list of movies made by LGBT people.
Well, Carol director Todd Haynes is openly gay.
the only three gay movies that can be re-watched due to not being the most depressing shit ever
And Carol has a happy ending! (Well, as happy as a movie about lesbians living in the 1950s can have, I guess.)
The only ones I've seen that actually made the list are "Weekend" which I've never finished and "Show Me Love"
Really? Holy crap. There some beautiful and groundbreaking (for their time) movies on this list. Happy Together, Brokeback Mountain, Tropical Malady, My Beautiful Laundrette, All About My Mother, My Own Private Idaho ... I mean, I haven't seen every movie on the list, and I think it's a little hinky to call Mulholland Dr., great as it is, an "LGBT film," but these are exceptional films in my estimation. I mean, I like Better Than Chocolate and Go Fish a lot, and I agree that lighthearted LGBT films are essential, but I don't know if I would put them in this league.
I agree with the sentiment that this is a list of LGBT films that straight people like.
Ha ha, guilty as charged. But I have LGBT friends and read LGBT critics, and I think a lot of LGBT people like these films, too. Again, check out all of the individual lists for some recommendations if the canon picks rub you the wrong way.
posted by Mothlight at 3:52 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hey, if you're looking for a little more context here, I highly recommend clicking through to the "all voters and votes" page. Not only will you be able to learn more about the individual voters and assess their likely expertise, but you can see which voters have tastes that seem to align closely with yours, and then power through the films on their lists that you haven't seen. Idiosyncratic individual lists are often more revelatory than consensus picks anyway.
One could throw down Philadelphia, the one with the Oscar-winning performance (by a straight man), and the biggest -- by far -- box-office number of all the movies being considered, which doesn't make the list.
But, oh man, Philadelphia is a terrible, patronizing message movie. I've never seen a gay-themed movie so thoroughly compromise itself through a bone-deep fear of alienating the intended (straight) audience.
I want to see a list of movies made by LGBT people.
Well, Carol director Todd Haynes is openly gay.
the only three gay movies that can be re-watched due to not being the most depressing shit ever
And Carol has a happy ending! (Well, as happy as a movie about lesbians living in the 1950s can have, I guess.)
The only ones I've seen that actually made the list are "Weekend" which I've never finished and "Show Me Love"
Really? Holy crap. There some beautiful and groundbreaking (for their time) movies on this list. Happy Together, Brokeback Mountain, Tropical Malady, My Beautiful Laundrette, All About My Mother, My Own Private Idaho ... I mean, I haven't seen every movie on the list, and I think it's a little hinky to call Mulholland Dr., great as it is, an "LGBT film," but these are exceptional films in my estimation. I mean, I like Better Than Chocolate and Go Fish a lot, and I agree that lighthearted LGBT films are essential, but I don't know if I would put them in this league.
I agree with the sentiment that this is a list of LGBT films that straight people like.
Ha ha, guilty as charged. But I have LGBT friends and read LGBT critics, and I think a lot of LGBT people like these films, too. Again, check out all of the individual lists for some recommendations if the canon picks rub you the wrong way.
posted by Mothlight at 3:52 PM on March 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Can Con! Can Con! Can Con! Lilies is more like a filmed play than a movie, though. Someone should do something like that to one of Michel Tremblay's gay plays.
You'd have to put one of Léa Pool's movie in, probably La femme de l'hôtel. And if you're going for lighter fare, maybe C.R.A.Z.Y.? Bit more dramatic? The Hanging Garden.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 3:54 PM on March 18, 2016
You'd have to put one of Léa Pool's movie in, probably La femme de l'hôtel. And if you're going for lighter fare, maybe C.R.A.Z.Y.? Bit more dramatic? The Hanging Garden.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 3:54 PM on March 18, 2016
For rom coms you might enjoy Mambo Italiano... A kind of big fat Greek wedding, but Gay and Italian.
I remember liking the quirky I heard the Mermaids Singing, but that was long ago.
A feel good comedy but not really rom-com is Breakfast with Scott.these are all Canadian (and Breakfast with Scott even has hockey theme).
posted by chapps at 4:07 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I remember liking the quirky I heard the Mermaids Singing, but that was long ago.
A feel good comedy but not really rom-com is Breakfast with Scott.these are all Canadian (and Breakfast with Scott even has hockey theme).
posted by chapps at 4:07 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Omg my Beautiful Laundrette, Happy Together and Paris is Burning are all so meaningful to me (but im straight). Another film/documentary that I find amazing is Small Town Gay Bar but I saw that at a film festival and don't know how widely it was released.
posted by biggreenplant at 4:07 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by biggreenplant at 4:07 PM on March 18, 2016
Really? Holy crap. There some beautiful and groundbreaking (for their time) movies on this list. Happy Together, Brokeback Mountain, Tropical Malady, My Beautiful Laundrette, All About My Mother, My Own Private Idaho ... I mean, I haven't seen every movie on the list, and I think it's a little hinky to call Mulholland Dr., great as it is, an "LGBT film," but these are exceptional films in my estimation. I mean, I like Better Than Chocolate and Go Fish a lot, and I agree that lighthearted LGBT films are essential, but I don't know if I would put them in this league.
The list said "best LGBTQ" movies. Not best dramatic or best serious or what have you. Perhaps I have my hackles up naturally as a romance novelist, but I'm annoyed at the idea that the everyday romantic comedy sort of movies I have enjoyed are "not in this league". Queer life on film doesn't have to be an art house darling, not that I don't love my fair share of those.
I don't particularly like sad or overly dramatic or portentous movies. I agree there are some on the list I need to see and have duly noted them ("Paris Is Burning" is absolutely one of those). But I just don't agree that there might not be a place on this list for stories about queer folks who don't die or don't go through major trauma and sadness. I would say there's a big call for exactly that.
posted by angeline at 4:17 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
The list said "best LGBTQ" movies. Not best dramatic or best serious or what have you. Perhaps I have my hackles up naturally as a romance novelist, but I'm annoyed at the idea that the everyday romantic comedy sort of movies I have enjoyed are "not in this league". Queer life on film doesn't have to be an art house darling, not that I don't love my fair share of those.
I don't particularly like sad or overly dramatic or portentous movies. I agree there are some on the list I need to see and have duly noted them ("Paris Is Burning" is absolutely one of those). But I just don't agree that there might not be a place on this list for stories about queer folks who don't die or don't go through major trauma and sadness. I would say there's a big call for exactly that.
posted by angeline at 4:17 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Arguably the most normative thing is being allowed to be the star of a genre film. Show me the queer Die Hard.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:26 PM on March 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 4:26 PM on March 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
Tropical Malady put me to sleep. Now, that might have had something to do with the fact that it was the third or fourth film I had seen that day as part of a film festival, and I was hitting it right at the mid-afternoon crash, but from the part I was awake for I don't think I would have liked it even if I had seen the whole thing.
Groundbreaking, in the sense of being not quite like anything that came before, yeah. But that's not the same as interesting.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:26 PM on March 18, 2016
Groundbreaking, in the sense of being not quite like anything that came before, yeah. But that's not the same as interesting.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:26 PM on March 18, 2016
> "Arguably the most normative thing is being allowed to be the star of a genre film. Show me the queer Die Hard."
Bound may be the one that comes closest to this.
posted by kyrademon at 4:33 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Bound may be the one that comes closest to this.
posted by kyrademon at 4:33 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
And I'll throw in Battlestar Galactica: Razor.
And Dog Day Afternoon, which made the list at number 27.
But yeah, a queer protagonist of a film with a genre other than "LGBT film" is a rare unicorn.
posted by kyrademon at 4:40 PM on March 18, 2016
And Dog Day Afternoon, which made the list at number 27.
But yeah, a queer protagonist of a film with a genre other than "LGBT film" is a rare unicorn.
posted by kyrademon at 4:40 PM on March 18, 2016
I'll limit my "omfg, how could they exclude" list to two:
Parting Glances
Longtime Companion
(Honorable Mention: Victor/Victoria)
posted by MoxieProxy at 5:21 PM on March 18, 2016
Parting Glances
Longtime Companion
(Honorable Mention: Victor/Victoria)
posted by MoxieProxy at 5:21 PM on March 18, 2016
"LGBT films" as in films made by LGBT people
I was on hiatus from MeFi but reactivated my account to say that the following filmmakers on the list are/were openly queer:
Todd Haynes, Andrew Haigh, Jennie Livingston, Stephen Frears, Pedro Almodovar, Jean Genet, Gus Van Sant, Rainer Werner Fassbinder, Chantal Akerman, Isaac Julien, Alain Guiraudie, Pier Paolo Pasolini, Cheryl Dunye, Dee Rees, Luchino Visconti, James Bidgood, John Schlesinger, and Celine Sciamma. And those are just the ones I knew about off the top of my head. Did you mean trans filmmakers? Because they are much less represented here.
posted by thetortoise at 5:54 PM on March 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
I was on hiatus from MeFi but reactivated my account to say that the following filmmakers on the list are/were openly queer:
Todd Haynes, Andrew Haigh, Jennie Livingston, Stephen Frears, Pedro Almodovar, Jean Genet, Gus Van Sant, Rainer Werner Fassbinder, Chantal Akerman, Isaac Julien, Alain Guiraudie, Pier Paolo Pasolini, Cheryl Dunye, Dee Rees, Luchino Visconti, James Bidgood, John Schlesinger, and Celine Sciamma. And those are just the ones I knew about off the top of my head. Did you mean trans filmmakers? Because they are much less represented here.
posted by thetortoise at 5:54 PM on March 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
I want to see a list of movies made by LGBT people.
Of the names I recognize, most are/were a part of the LGBT community.
There are a lot of great movies on this list and I appreciate it's scattershot nature. "Best of"s are always frustrating and generally do a disservice to whatever is being ranked.
And just to counter one comment above, Tropical Malady is a wonderful film.
posted by AtoBtoA at 6:03 PM on March 18, 2016
Of the names I recognize, most are/were a part of the LGBT community.
There are a lot of great movies on this list and I appreciate it's scattershot nature. "Best of"s are always frustrating and generally do a disservice to whatever is being ranked.
And just to counter one comment above, Tropical Malady is a wonderful film.
posted by AtoBtoA at 6:03 PM on March 18, 2016
I really liked both Death in Venice and Mulholland Drive, but as a straight guy I have to wonder what it is that makes these "LGBT films".
Well, Death in Venice is directed by a gay man, stars a gay man, is written by a bisexual author, and is about a man in love with a boy, for starters...
posted by thetortoise at 6:05 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, Death in Venice is directed by a gay man, stars a gay man, is written by a bisexual author, and is about a man in love with a boy, for starters...
posted by thetortoise at 6:05 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
I haven't seen most of these because I'm just not that big of a movie watcher, though I loved My Beautiful Launderette, which is one of those films that seems to get perpetually overlooked, so I'm glad it made the list. But I'm curious about why they didn't consider Milk. The Times of Harvey Milk got a footnote, but having seen both, I thought Milk pretty well nailed the era & that Penn gave a very credible performance. Too mainstream?
I do need to see Dog Day Afteroon again - saw it right after it came out, when I was probably too young to really appreciate it.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:24 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do need to see Dog Day Afteroon again - saw it right after it came out, when I was probably too young to really appreciate it.
posted by Devils Rancher at 6:24 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, this is not just some list made by "straight people." If you follow Mothlight's link, you'll see that those polled include prominent feminist/queer scholars like Laura Mulvey and Richard Dyer and LBGT festival programmers. It's slanted toward arty international cinema, because it's a critics' list. I'm sorry that I can't let this go, but the comments are getting me down a bit. Everything on that list is worth watching and I'm happy to see some relative obscurities and films that didn't get enough love at the box office (Pariah!) there.
posted by thetortoise at 6:32 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 6:32 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think I'm letting some personal frustration get in the way here in what is otherwise a fun discussion, so I wanted to speak from the heart for a moment and then step away and stop sucking up air in the thread. Lists are made for people to argue over, so the fact that people will have all kinds of reactions to this one is no surprise. But making movies for marginalized populations is hard, and getting audiences to see them is hard, and the comments on any list of this type demonstrate why. If you haven't done this for a living, you might be surprised by just how hard it is. As somebody who daily thinks of throwing in the towel permanently on film programming and criticism (also, who is queer), I want to give a little insight into this, beyond production of the film itself (which is the most difficult part anyway):
First of all, you want to do right by the marginalized group; you want to select something that represents their lives accurately, that doesn't perpetuate hated stereotypes, that they might genuinely enjoy. And you need to get their attention, because if they're underrepresented, odds are a lot of folks have tuned out of typical media streams by now. And you can't fill up theaters just with one marginalized population, so you want something that the straight people (or substitute whatever dominant group) also want to see. If that's unlikely, you work out an angle in marketing to cast a wide net.
Then there's the question of aesthetics. You might want to program something highbrow, acclaimed, experimental. If you do that, you'll alienate the audience that wants a conventional narrative. More strangely, the highbrow-preferring folks might not even recognize it as representation, but read it as "art film," devoid of identity politics (read: assumed to be white male heterosexual American/Western European), regardless of the real context, regardless of how it is expressed. Does this improve representation or not?
Maybe you pick something more familiar in style and subject: a polished romcom, an action movie, a musical. People who have been waiting for this (gay romance!) might be thrilled but other audience members will criticize it as inauthentic, not on the basis of the representation itself but on its style. It's too American, not real enough, too commercialized, too "Hollywood" even if it comes from Argentina or Taiwan. They don't trust it, whatever its cred.
One viewer thinks Kissing Jessica Stein is terrible queer representation: it's fluffy, it does nothing new artistically, it's made by straight-identified people and perpetuates stereotypes. Another viewer thinks it's great representation: it feels like a well-scripted SATC episode, it features a romance with women who can't be described with the word "lesbian," it has characters who aren't exact Kinsey 6s or 3s. One viewer thinks Tangerine is terrible trans representation: the directors and producers aren't trans, the characters are trans sex workers of color (stereotypes), it's apolitical. Another thinks Tangerine is great trans representation: the actors are trans women of color, they had creative input, they play sex workers who are witty and complex (not stereotypes), it's a light comedy about people too often treated in a tragic, dehumanizing manner on film.
tl;dr everybody likes what they like, and this is no less true for marginalized folks. No list will ever be enough. No theater, no festival, no TV channel will, until representation gets to the point where the movies look and sound and feel like the world.
posted by thetortoise at 8:06 PM on March 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
First of all, you want to do right by the marginalized group; you want to select something that represents their lives accurately, that doesn't perpetuate hated stereotypes, that they might genuinely enjoy. And you need to get their attention, because if they're underrepresented, odds are a lot of folks have tuned out of typical media streams by now. And you can't fill up theaters just with one marginalized population, so you want something that the straight people (or substitute whatever dominant group) also want to see. If that's unlikely, you work out an angle in marketing to cast a wide net.
Then there's the question of aesthetics. You might want to program something highbrow, acclaimed, experimental. If you do that, you'll alienate the audience that wants a conventional narrative. More strangely, the highbrow-preferring folks might not even recognize it as representation, but read it as "art film," devoid of identity politics (read: assumed to be white male heterosexual American/Western European), regardless of the real context, regardless of how it is expressed. Does this improve representation or not?
Maybe you pick something more familiar in style and subject: a polished romcom, an action movie, a musical. People who have been waiting for this (gay romance!) might be thrilled but other audience members will criticize it as inauthentic, not on the basis of the representation itself but on its style. It's too American, not real enough, too commercialized, too "Hollywood" even if it comes from Argentina or Taiwan. They don't trust it, whatever its cred.
One viewer thinks Kissing Jessica Stein is terrible queer representation: it's fluffy, it does nothing new artistically, it's made by straight-identified people and perpetuates stereotypes. Another viewer thinks it's great representation: it feels like a well-scripted SATC episode, it features a romance with women who can't be described with the word "lesbian," it has characters who aren't exact Kinsey 6s or 3s. One viewer thinks Tangerine is terrible trans representation: the directors and producers aren't trans, the characters are trans sex workers of color (stereotypes), it's apolitical. Another thinks Tangerine is great trans representation: the actors are trans women of color, they had creative input, they play sex workers who are witty and complex (not stereotypes), it's a light comedy about people too often treated in a tragic, dehumanizing manner on film.
tl;dr everybody likes what they like, and this is no less true for marginalized folks. No list will ever be enough. No theater, no festival, no TV channel will, until representation gets to the point where the movies look and sound and feel like the world.
posted by thetortoise at 8:06 PM on March 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
I tried to make myself fall asleep during Carol. (I wasn't by myself so I couldn't leave.)
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:07 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:07 PM on March 18, 2016
Loved Tangerine. Love thetortoise's comment.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:10 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:10 PM on March 18, 2016
As an inveterate film-lover, it just makes me sad to see people look at a list like this, carefully curated by more than 100 knowledgeable cinephiles and released to celebrate the 30th anniversary of a long-running film festival dedicated to LGBT film and say things that boil down to "these movies are too serious/too boring." Anti-intellectualism is pilloried as it applies to science and politics, but it seems like it's increasingly embraced when it comes to entertainment.
posted by Mothlight at 8:15 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mothlight at 8:15 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Arguably the most normative thing is being allowed to be the star of a genre film. Show me the queer Die Hard.
I always think about that gay secret agent film that Rupert Everett spent years trying to get off the ground in Hollywood. I know he has a reputation for being, um, difficult, but boy did I want to see that movie.
posted by Mothlight at 8:21 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I always think about that gay secret agent film that Rupert Everett spent years trying to get off the ground in Hollywood. I know he has a reputation for being, um, difficult, but boy did I want to see that movie.
posted by Mothlight at 8:21 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Magic Mike XXL is queer because it reconstructs the male gaze, and because of how it plays wiht the problem of homosociality. (From the article that someone posted complaining about the list). It's the same reason why Pillow Talk needs to be on this list, though people might not read it as queer.
posted by PinkMoose at 8:23 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by PinkMoose at 8:23 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm perfectly fine with intellectual films, speaking for myself. I know there are some tremendous films on that list that I want to see.
I am less fine with the implication that lighter fare is somehow less worthy of being a best anything. And perhaps it's just my own perception, Mothlight, and I'm sure you're a fantastic person, but to me you're coming off as tremendously condescending and frankly it's a bit hurtful.
posted by angeline at 8:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am less fine with the implication that lighter fare is somehow less worthy of being a best anything. And perhaps it's just my own perception, Mothlight, and I'm sure you're a fantastic person, but to me you're coming off as tremendously condescending and frankly it's a bit hurtful.
posted by angeline at 8:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, thank you for TheTortoise's comment
posted by PinkMoose at 8:35 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 8:35 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just like the book, Carol had an ending that left open the possibility of happiness. This was, indeed, a far better ending than most lesbian literature in the 50s, where gay characters had to either die or realize they're really straight
posted by lhauser at 8:50 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lhauser at 8:50 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Omg soups, Lilies is one of my top ten movies ever. Both from a queen perspective and as an interesting concept period. (also it was adapted froma play)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:00 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:00 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mothlight, and I'm sure you're a fantastic person, but to me you're coming off as tremendously condescending and frankly it's a bit hurtful.
Sorry about that, and I certainly don't mean to. And if it makes a difference, I didn't have you in mind at all when making that comment — specifically, I'm glad you said this.
I just don't agree that there might not be a place on this list for stories about queer folks who don't die or don't go through major trauma and sadness. I would say there's a big call for exactly that.
You're absolutely right, and it's wrong of me to imply that such a movie is somehow lesser, or to dismiss your point of view. I would love to see a broader range of films on a list like this, and it's an indication of how far we still have to go that I was so surprised and relieved to see that Carol did allow itself a happy and hopeful ending.
I was objecting to some reflexive snark in the comments that genuinely bummed me out, but I'm sure I overreacted to those few remarks while failing to engaging with more substantive arguments, including yours. I'm off my high horse now, and I apologize for the condescending tone.
posted by Mothlight at 10:21 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sorry about that, and I certainly don't mean to. And if it makes a difference, I didn't have you in mind at all when making that comment — specifically, I'm glad you said this.
I just don't agree that there might not be a place on this list for stories about queer folks who don't die or don't go through major trauma and sadness. I would say there's a big call for exactly that.
You're absolutely right, and it's wrong of me to imply that such a movie is somehow lesser, or to dismiss your point of view. I would love to see a broader range of films on a list like this, and it's an indication of how far we still have to go that I was so surprised and relieved to see that Carol did allow itself a happy and hopeful ending.
I was objecting to some reflexive snark in the comments that genuinely bummed me out, but I'm sure I overreacted to those few remarks while failing to engaging with more substantive arguments, including yours. I'm off my high horse now, and I apologize for the condescending tone.
posted by Mothlight at 10:21 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I really liked Edge of Seventeen when I saw it for the first time last year
but then, I am also an artifact of the 90s that hasn't aged well.
posted by jb at 10:22 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
but then, I am also an artifact of the 90s that hasn't aged well.
posted by jb at 10:22 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
as for feel good LGBT films
Breakfast with Scot
When Night is Falling
Beautiful Thing
Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
even Maurice finishes its slight broodingness with an open end.
There was also a nice little B film I saw called Tru Love (aimed at teens, I think), but now I can't find it for the much more well known (and critically acclaimed) 2015 film of the same name.
posted by jb at 10:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Breakfast with Scot
When Night is Falling
Beautiful Thing
Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
even Maurice finishes its slight broodingness with an open end.
There was also a nice little B film I saw called Tru Love (aimed at teens, I think), but now I can't find it for the much more well known (and critically acclaimed) 2015 film of the same name.
posted by jb at 10:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
No Intimate Circumstances? Booo.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:53 PM on March 18, 2016
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:53 PM on March 18, 2016
What bothered me most about the Slate article was the author's premise that there actually would be an objective best of all time list possible. He states: it may be a bit too soon for queer cinephiles to be thinking in terms of “all time” in the first place. I mean, if you put it like that, it's always too soon to think in these terms. Compiling a list does not mean closure once and for all. It's a decision made in a specific point in time that will inevitably be updated and changed. When you start from 'too soon', any list of best films in general would be impossible - simply because it's not objective enough.
But, on the same note from a different angle: is lgbt film really that young that it would lack enough of a history to compile these kinds of lists? Pre-code Hollywood, for example. Yes, the Hays code thing ruined a lot of things in Hollywood and made sure that quite a lot would be forgotten, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anything before 1934. There have even been claims that lgbt film is as old as cinema itself. Although that's disputable.
posted by sapagan at 12:55 AM on March 19, 2016
But, on the same note from a different angle: is lgbt film really that young that it would lack enough of a history to compile these kinds of lists? Pre-code Hollywood, for example. Yes, the Hays code thing ruined a lot of things in Hollywood and made sure that quite a lot would be forgotten, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anything before 1934. There have even been claims that lgbt film is as old as cinema itself. Although that's disputable.
posted by sapagan at 12:55 AM on March 19, 2016
Really good podcast interview with Carol screenwriter Phyllis Nagy.
is it really the best LGBT film of all time?
I don't know about that, but it's my favorite movie of the 2016 Oscars batch.
posted by Artw at 5:52 AM on March 19, 2016
is it really the best LGBT film of all time?
I don't know about that, but it's my favorite movie of the 2016 Oscars batch.
posted by Artw at 5:52 AM on March 19, 2016
(Is this the place I say how much I hated the ending of Carol because I felt like they would have been horrible together in the long term? And for a moment I believed that I had watched an amazing film that celebrated the kind of relationship that is deep and important and brought change to both of their lives but is also short and temporary? But no, we got that hint of "happily ever after" which is so dull and I just didn't believe it for a second with either Carol or Therèse. STILL a great, great film, but I would have loved cutting off the last 2 minutes and leaving it much more ambiguous and hopeful.)
posted by jeweled accumulation at 6:50 AM on March 19, 2016
posted by jeweled accumulation at 6:50 AM on March 19, 2016
Mothlight, thank you - apology accepted and my own extended; I know I tend to be prickly about the topic, and then noisy. But even if a list like this bums me out a bit for not feeling quite broad enough, it also does remind me that there's still a world of LGBTQ cinema that I haven't experienced and have meant to - so there's a net good.
jeweled accumulation, I haven't seen "Carol" yet because my book club read "The Price of Salt" last year and it's still a strong enough presence in my head that I held off - but your issue with the end of the movie was an issue for many of us with the book. Yay for a happy ending but...these two? Hm. Well, if we HAVE TO...
posted by angeline at 9:31 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
jeweled accumulation, I haven't seen "Carol" yet because my book club read "The Price of Salt" last year and it's still a strong enough presence in my head that I held off - but your issue with the end of the movie was an issue for many of us with the book. Yay for a happy ending but...these two? Hm. Well, if we HAVE TO...
posted by angeline at 9:31 AM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
even Maurice finishes its slight broodingness with an open end.
"A happy ending was imperative. I shouldn’t have bothered to write otherwise. I was determined that in fiction anyway two men should fall in love and remain in it for the ever and ever that fiction allows, and in this sense Maurice and Alec still roam in the greenwood. […] Happiness is its keynote–which by the way has had an unexpected result: it has made the book more difficult to publish." (E.M. Forster)
I remember seeing this in college and thinking how utterly unrealistic the ending was, to the point that it undercut the value of the whole film for me. Now, of course, not that many years later, Maurice and Alec could not only be public about their relationship, but get married. But I still think they were a tremendously mismatched couple and it would not have ended well.
Paris is Burning is a beautiful film which has held up surprisingly well even though its particular subculture has faded.
posted by praemunire at 10:23 AM on March 19, 2016
"A happy ending was imperative. I shouldn’t have bothered to write otherwise. I was determined that in fiction anyway two men should fall in love and remain in it for the ever and ever that fiction allows, and in this sense Maurice and Alec still roam in the greenwood. […] Happiness is its keynote–which by the way has had an unexpected result: it has made the book more difficult to publish." (E.M. Forster)
I remember seeing this in college and thinking how utterly unrealistic the ending was, to the point that it undercut the value of the whole film for me. Now, of course, not that many years later, Maurice and Alec could not only be public about their relationship, but get married. But I still think they were a tremendously mismatched couple and it would not have ended well.
Paris is Burning is a beautiful film which has held up surprisingly well even though its particular subculture has faded.
posted by praemunire at 10:23 AM on March 19, 2016
I was glad a few included Beautiful Thing, which, despite being stuck in the dated gay bildungsroman rut, but it made me wonder if I was the only person out there who loves North Sea Texas, a similar sort of film that really has a mastery of youthful awkward silences and kidlogic that's just so refreshing.
Sometimes a film can be simultaneously uplifting and devastatingly sad, like Weekend, which I seem to be able to watch and rewatch with some sense of optimism at the end, not least of which because it's a great antidote to the flood of film-school-student-grade crap that TLA Releasing seems to ceaselessly belch out on Netflix/Hulu, with a human counterpoint to glossy sunbleached West Coast shiny A-list gayness and incidental, naturalistic queerness instead of Hollywood Very Important Film™ pomp.
In the same way that David Sedaris knocked my pants off twenty-four years ago by telling a funny, well-written story on the road in which (A) gay dudes existed but (B) didn't have to turn a story into a Very Special Episode™, the passage of gayness from being something special, magical, and troublesome or disturbing about a person into something on the axis of shruggable ordinaryism like lefthandedness or an well-cultivated love of rear-engined Renaults, the onset of films in which gay people are just people having adventures is tremendously exciting, because we finally get back to great storytelling again instead of being the disease of the week. We're still basking in the radioactive pink afterglow of third wave gaysploitation stupidity, but there are good stories ahead.
posted by sonascope at 7:03 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sometimes a film can be simultaneously uplifting and devastatingly sad, like Weekend, which I seem to be able to watch and rewatch with some sense of optimism at the end, not least of which because it's a great antidote to the flood of film-school-student-grade crap that TLA Releasing seems to ceaselessly belch out on Netflix/Hulu, with a human counterpoint to glossy sunbleached West Coast shiny A-list gayness and incidental, naturalistic queerness instead of Hollywood Very Important Film™ pomp.
In the same way that David Sedaris knocked my pants off twenty-four years ago by telling a funny, well-written story on the road in which (A) gay dudes existed but (B) didn't have to turn a story into a Very Special Episode™, the passage of gayness from being something special, magical, and troublesome or disturbing about a person into something on the axis of shruggable ordinaryism like lefthandedness or an well-cultivated love of rear-engined Renaults, the onset of films in which gay people are just people having adventures is tremendously exciting, because we finally get back to great storytelling again instead of being the disease of the week. We're still basking in the radioactive pink afterglow of third wave gaysploitation stupidity, but there are good stories ahead.
posted by sonascope at 7:03 PM on March 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
even Maurice finishes its slight broodingness with an open end.
"A happy ending was imperative. I shouldn’t have bothered to write otherwise. I was determined that in fiction anyway two men should fall in love and remain in it for the ever and ever that fiction allows, and in this sense Maurice and Alec still roam in the greenwood. […] Happiness is its keynote–which by the way has had an unexpected result: it has made the book more difficult to publish." (E.M. Forster)
I remember seeing this in college and thinking how utterly unrealistic the ending was, to the point that it undercut the value of the whole film for me. Now, of course, not that many years later, Maurice and Alec could not only be public about their relationship, but get married. But I still think they were a tremendously mismatched couple and it would not have ended well.
The reason I said an "open end" is that Forster originally intended to write an epilogue set a few years later to confirm the happy ending -- but then the First World War happened, and he realized he couldn't add anything because the world had utterly changed. (I'm always aware of the shadow of the war when reading anything Edwardian.)
But, as for their mismatch, the story was inspired by a real cross-class relationship, between Edward Carpenter and George Merrill, which was by all accounts a happy one. Not perfect - no relationship is - but we don't have to hold queer relationships to higher standards.
posted by jb at 7:37 PM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
"A happy ending was imperative. I shouldn’t have bothered to write otherwise. I was determined that in fiction anyway two men should fall in love and remain in it for the ever and ever that fiction allows, and in this sense Maurice and Alec still roam in the greenwood. […] Happiness is its keynote–which by the way has had an unexpected result: it has made the book more difficult to publish." (E.M. Forster)
I remember seeing this in college and thinking how utterly unrealistic the ending was, to the point that it undercut the value of the whole film for me. Now, of course, not that many years later, Maurice and Alec could not only be public about their relationship, but get married. But I still think they were a tremendously mismatched couple and it would not have ended well.
The reason I said an "open end" is that Forster originally intended to write an epilogue set a few years later to confirm the happy ending -- but then the First World War happened, and he realized he couldn't add anything because the world had utterly changed. (I'm always aware of the shadow of the war when reading anything Edwardian.)
But, as for their mismatch, the story was inspired by a real cross-class relationship, between Edward Carpenter and George Merrill, which was by all accounts a happy one. Not perfect - no relationship is - but we don't have to hold queer relationships to higher standards.
posted by jb at 7:37 PM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maurice was my second favourite book when I was 15. I have thought about it a lot. Though I didn't know Merrill & Carpenter until more recently - thank you, Wikipedia!
Also: if you haven't read The Life to Come (Forster short story collection), you must.
posted by jb at 7:46 PM on March 19, 2016
Also: if you haven't read The Life to Come (Forster short story collection), you must.
posted by jb at 7:46 PM on March 19, 2016
But I still think they were a tremendously mismatched couple and it would not have ended well.
Lytton Strachey wrote to Forster and said that the Maurice/Alec relationship was based on 'lust and sentiment' and would be over in six months. His critique was a little harsh (as one would expect), but perceptive.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:21 AM on March 20, 2016
Lytton Strachey wrote to Forster and said that the Maurice/Alec relationship was based on 'lust and sentiment' and would be over in six months. His critique was a little harsh (as one would expect), but perceptive.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:21 AM on March 20, 2016
I just want to say that thanks to this thread I finally watched Pride and seriously I now feel like anything is possible and the world can be a wonderful place if we have some courage in our hearts and stick together.
posted by chapps at 1:37 AM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by chapps at 1:37 AM on March 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just want to say that thanks to this thread I finally watched Pride and seriously I now feel like anything is possible and the world can be a wonderful place if we have some courage in our hearts and stick together.
And I want to believe too!
except for that Graeber thread reminding everyone how Thatcher won and how the Neo-Liberal consensus has wrecked Britain ...
posted by jb at 2:30 PM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
And I want to believe too!
except for that Graeber thread reminding everyone how Thatcher won and how the Neo-Liberal consensus has wrecked Britain ...
posted by jb at 2:30 PM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
But, as for their mismatch, the story was inspired by a real cross-class relationship, between Edward Carpenter and George Merrill, which was by all accounts a happy one. Not perfect - no relationship is - but we don't have to hold queer relationships to higher standards.
Also, frankly, Lytton Strachey can bite me. I tend to feel like this about him in general.
But I think you can only understand Maurice in a particular temporal/class context - if you read early queer novels or queerish novels and people's memoirs, there's this whole thing where to me class seems to sort of operate like a really traddy butch-femme thing. It's normal to depict the older, higher-class partner and the younger working class one. (Consider Proust, for that matter.) I read someone's comment somewhere where he was saying that it felt impossible for middle class men to have a serious relationship with a class peer, that middle class or upper class gay men basically had something wrong with them and therefore each sought out a working class partner who represented "authentic" masculinity. (He was middle class.). Not that middle class men didn't have relationships with class peers, of course, but the fact that someone could articulate that is telling. If you read early openly gay novels (The Heart in Exile, for instance, which is very interesting and came out in the fifties) it's very revealing how the most radical gay characters are still saying "well, there's something wrong with us but we should be able to live anyway because we're only hurting ourselves". And the disgust for feminine gay men - in several of these novels, it's the femme guys who prove to be the villains.
Also, I surmise that the fact that homosexuality was criminalized plays into this a lot - it's not like you can go on OKCupid or even to a bar, and it was well known that young sorta-straight (or queer) working class guys sometimes made extra money via casual prostitution that seemed to have a social element as well.
Basically, to coin a phrase, the past is another country.
I find the relationship in Maurice pretty depressing, myself, but not because I find it unrealistic.
Pride is a neat movie, but....first off, that whole "the miners accept the GLSM and then rejected them again" thing never happened. The miners debated it and then, once it was done it was done. The miner's wife who is the big organizer is real, but she went to college and then got into politics on her own, not because a helpful man suggested it to her. And the whole subplot about how the women who leave are just shrieking feminist harpies - even the dudes from GLSM admit that there was some sexism in it.
I am a bit troubled by it because the movie depicts the miners as more homophobic than they were, which is typical of how working class people get portrayed.
You can actually find a TON of original material about Pride online if you look up "Gays and Lesbians Support The Miners". There's actually an original little film that GLSM made, and from which a lot was taken for the movie. Also, there are stills from the dance party, which actually happened. The van was also real and looked just like the movie version.
It's amazing, too, how that film totally finesses the loss of the strike. In a way it's a perfect microcosm of how the world has gone - gay people, if we're rich enough, can be integrated into the shitty state*, but the aspirations of working class people and the dreams of a just society are totally marginalized and eradicated.
Also, Mark Ashton was a communist. This is elided in the film, because of the American market, and because while we can have the gays as a new sales territory, we sure can't have economic equality.
*We've moved past neoliberal, "carceral" doesn't quite get at everything, I'm not sure what descriptor to use, but "shitty" will do until something else comes along.
posted by Frowner at 4:37 PM on March 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, frankly, Lytton Strachey can bite me. I tend to feel like this about him in general.
But I think you can only understand Maurice in a particular temporal/class context - if you read early queer novels or queerish novels and people's memoirs, there's this whole thing where to me class seems to sort of operate like a really traddy butch-femme thing. It's normal to depict the older, higher-class partner and the younger working class one. (Consider Proust, for that matter.) I read someone's comment somewhere where he was saying that it felt impossible for middle class men to have a serious relationship with a class peer, that middle class or upper class gay men basically had something wrong with them and therefore each sought out a working class partner who represented "authentic" masculinity. (He was middle class.). Not that middle class men didn't have relationships with class peers, of course, but the fact that someone could articulate that is telling. If you read early openly gay novels (The Heart in Exile, for instance, which is very interesting and came out in the fifties) it's very revealing how the most radical gay characters are still saying "well, there's something wrong with us but we should be able to live anyway because we're only hurting ourselves". And the disgust for feminine gay men - in several of these novels, it's the femme guys who prove to be the villains.
Also, I surmise that the fact that homosexuality was criminalized plays into this a lot - it's not like you can go on OKCupid or even to a bar, and it was well known that young sorta-straight (or queer) working class guys sometimes made extra money via casual prostitution that seemed to have a social element as well.
Basically, to coin a phrase, the past is another country.
I find the relationship in Maurice pretty depressing, myself, but not because I find it unrealistic.
Pride is a neat movie, but....first off, that whole "the miners accept the GLSM and then rejected them again" thing never happened. The miners debated it and then, once it was done it was done. The miner's wife who is the big organizer is real, but she went to college and then got into politics on her own, not because a helpful man suggested it to her. And the whole subplot about how the women who leave are just shrieking feminist harpies - even the dudes from GLSM admit that there was some sexism in it.
I am a bit troubled by it because the movie depicts the miners as more homophobic than they were, which is typical of how working class people get portrayed.
You can actually find a TON of original material about Pride online if you look up "Gays and Lesbians Support The Miners". There's actually an original little film that GLSM made, and from which a lot was taken for the movie. Also, there are stills from the dance party, which actually happened. The van was also real and looked just like the movie version.
It's amazing, too, how that film totally finesses the loss of the strike. In a way it's a perfect microcosm of how the world has gone - gay people, if we're rich enough, can be integrated into the shitty state*, but the aspirations of working class people and the dreams of a just society are totally marginalized and eradicated.
Also, Mark Ashton was a communist. This is elided in the film, because of the American market, and because while we can have the gays as a new sales territory, we sure can't have economic equality.
*We've moved past neoliberal, "carceral" doesn't quite get at everything, I'm not sure what descriptor to use, but "shitty" will do until something else comes along.
posted by Frowner at 4:37 PM on March 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Frowner: I think the cross-class relationships in fiction were really imitating life. I heard a historian of queer life in early 20th century Toronto give a lecture, and he talked about how men arrested were often middle class and working class men meeting up in the spaces between their neighbourhoods.
Maybe it was more distancing -- or maybe, given how many fewer people are queer -- you took love as you found it and didn't worry so much about making a 'good match'.
What I love most about Maurice is neither romance. The brilliance in the novel is as a Bildungsroman - how the thoughtless, popular, somewhat obtuse Maurice is forced to change and grow. Most of the novel takes place before Alec even comes on the scene.
The movie focused a lot more on the relationships, especially with Hugh Grant's character (Clive? oh, I'm getting old).
posted by jb at 7:05 PM on March 20, 2016
Maybe it was more distancing -- or maybe, given how many fewer people are queer -- you took love as you found it and didn't worry so much about making a 'good match'.
What I love most about Maurice is neither romance. The brilliance in the novel is as a Bildungsroman - how the thoughtless, popular, somewhat obtuse Maurice is forced to change and grow. Most of the novel takes place before Alec even comes on the scene.
The movie focused a lot more on the relationships, especially with Hugh Grant's character (Clive? oh, I'm getting old).
posted by jb at 7:05 PM on March 20, 2016
The doc Frowner mentions and more are linked in the Fanfare post about pride. I looked at Fanfare after watching pride and they obviously took costumes and hair directly from the film.
The doc is much more thoughtful about the lesbian group that breaks off.
It's also pretty funny to see how many of the actual people really look like the characters in the film... You know exactly who the person in the doc is before they are identified.
Bonus is the concert footage, including Jimmy Somerville's little speech, and the other sperhes at the concert made by union activists and queer activists.
I was really touched to see the actual footage of the miners locals in the pride march.
Despite the fact that neoliberalism is still the force in power, I do think this story of solidarity across groups is vital and important... It reminds me a bit of the clip in Life and Times of Harvey Milk where the union activist who freely admit that he formerly was ok with abuse of gays, is now campaigning for Milk because he had successfully got Coors boycotted in every gay bar in San Francisco.
I'm hard pressed to think of many such solidarity narratives in film, I would like to see more because I think we can learn a lot from these activists ... Not just my initial teary eyed happiness, real tactical skills.
posted by chapps at 8:49 PM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
The doc is much more thoughtful about the lesbian group that breaks off.
It's also pretty funny to see how many of the actual people really look like the characters in the film... You know exactly who the person in the doc is before they are identified.
Bonus is the concert footage, including Jimmy Somerville's little speech, and the other sperhes at the concert made by union activists and queer activists.
I was really touched to see the actual footage of the miners locals in the pride march.
Despite the fact that neoliberalism is still the force in power, I do think this story of solidarity across groups is vital and important... It reminds me a bit of the clip in Life and Times of Harvey Milk where the union activist who freely admit that he formerly was ok with abuse of gays, is now campaigning for Milk because he had successfully got Coors boycotted in every gay bar in San Francisco.
I'm hard pressed to think of many such solidarity narratives in film, I would like to see more because I think we can learn a lot from these activists ... Not just my initial teary eyed happiness, real tactical skills.
posted by chapps at 8:49 PM on March 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lighthearted gay movie? Trick. Sonascope above wrote about "the flood of film-school-student-grade crap that TLA Releasing seems to ceaselessly belch out on Netflix/Hulu" - many of those look like they are trying to be "Trick." But they are not "Trick."
My personal list would also have Love Songs (Les Chansons d'amour) highly ranked. It's a French musical deeply in the spirit of the 60's New Wave, where the main character goes from being in a threesome with two women, to being in a relationship with a guy, and there's absolutely no angst or explanation over "wait, does this mean he's gay now?" It's just what happens.
posted by dnash at 5:57 AM on March 21, 2016
My personal list would also have Love Songs (Les Chansons d'amour) highly ranked. It's a French musical deeply in the spirit of the 60's New Wave, where the main character goes from being in a threesome with two women, to being in a relationship with a guy, and there's absolutely no angst or explanation over "wait, does this mean he's gay now?" It's just what happens.
posted by dnash at 5:57 AM on March 21, 2016
This is a pretty good "into the night" lesbian comedy movie actually if we're talking about genre pieces we'd like to see LGBT characters in. GirlTrash: All Night Long.
posted by edbles at 9:54 AM on March 21, 2016
posted by edbles at 9:54 AM on March 21, 2016
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That scene with those two 13-15 year old children arm in arm is one of the most beautiful and sad things on film.
posted by munchingzombie at 2:01 PM on March 18, 2016 [22 favorites]