“There’s a lot to be worried about.”
March 23, 2016 12:56 PM   Subscribe

A Comics Geek's Verdict on Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice by Jordan Hoffman [The Guardian] Ben Affleck is great and Wonder Woman nearly steals the show, but there’s plenty in Zack Snyder’s mash-up to make superfans fret. Including, film-maker’s Kryptonite!: very bad writing. [Warning: Reviews Contains SPOILERS!!]
I felt a similar sense of futility after seeing this two-and-a-half-hour jumble of a movie. Now, I’ll happily declare Zack Snyder’s Man of Steel to be a work of misunderstood genius. I’ll look at Marvel Studios’ ever-expanding slate of forthcoming films and cry out for more, more, more. But I can’t lie and call Batman v Superman a great movie. Not even for us superhero fans. It isn’t terrible, but considering it’s the foundation for the Justice League and standalone Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg and Aquaman movies to come, there’s a lot to be worried about.
- Batman v Superman Review: This Movie Is a Crime Against Comic Book Fans. by Alex Abad-Santos [Vox]
The darkest moment of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is a montage of Bruce Wayne, played by an emotive rectangle of muscle and tendons known as Ben Affleck, prepping for his Superman fight by doing CrossFit. The sequence takes place in the Batcave to ostensibly camouflage the sound of Wayne's weighted pullups and the percussion of steel weights dropped over and over. Wayne pushes a resistance sled — the kind you see in football movies like The Blind Side — and then swings a sledgehammer at a few tires. I don't completely understand how performing these exercises was supposed to help him defeat a bulletproof deity who can melt faces. But then again, I'm not really familiar with the latest in CrossFit trends.
- Batman v Superman Asks Some Provocative Questions, but Forgets to Answer Them by Richard Lawson [Vanity Fair]
So, there is plenty of good in the film, much more than in Man of Steel. The moral keening of this new film seems largely inspired by the backlash to Man of Steel’s opera of annihilation, as if Snyder is himself grappling with the pervasive criticism that the increasingly massive, city-wide melees so popular among franchise films these days have begun to lose all sense of context. Batman v Superman takes stock of the genuine, human toll of its predecessor, opening the door for the deeper inspection of superhero-ness that gives the film its most gripping, provocative moments.

But before too long, Snyder has shaken off the self-reflection and returned to the senseless clamor of before, bogging down Batman v Superman with an empty seriousness where, for a few inspired scenes, some actual thought has flickered tantalizingly. There is, nominally, a plot: Bruce Wayne (Ben Affleck, angry and withdrawn) doesn’t much like Superman, and Clark Kent (Henry Cavill, alabaster and cool to the touch) isn’t liking what he’s hearing about this vigilante Batman. Meanwhile, Lois Lane is investigating an attack meant to frame Superman as a bad guy (Amy Adams, one of our most talented American movie stars, does her noble best with a role that, at one point, forces her to say “I’m not a lady, I’m a journalist”), Congress is investigating, and a twitchy tech mogul named Lex Luthor is cooking up some sort of plot to shoot Superman out of the sky.
- Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Is an Unpleasant Endurance Test by Lesley Coffin [The Mary Sue]
I want to make it clear (because I’m hearing a lot of angry fans getting upset): I didn’t dislike Batman v Superman because it isn’t as fun as the Marvel or X-Men universe. I can appreciate a movie attempting to be dark and serious, and there should be room for both kinds of movie. I disliked Batman v Superman because it is an unpleasant movie to sit through, lacks any emotional impact, and is clearly written just to kickstart a money-making machine for DC. Objectively, this is one of the ugliest movies I’ve ever seen, and I left feeling like I’d had just been yelled at by someone I don’t know on a bus. This is just a poorly made movie, and even fans of DC’s characters who are excited to see it should be upset at the way Zack Snyder and his writers Chris Terrio and David Goyer wasted a golden opportunity.
- Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice is As Inelegant as Its Title. by A. A. Dowd [A.V. Club]
Running the length of about seven Batman: The Animated Series episodes, Batman V Superman choppily races through plot, as the film works in a CIA coverup, a discovered lump of Kryptonite, a downed UFO, the body of Michael Shannon’s slain General Zod, glib echoes of real-world terrorism, and a second villain whose identity shouldn’t be disclosed. Relationships have no room to blossom or even reveal themselves. What’s it like, one must wonder, to date a being from beyond the stars? The New Adventures Of Lois & Clark spent four seasons answering that question, while Batman V Superman can barely spare the single scene necessary to explain that Kal-El (a.k.a. Superman, a.k.a. Clark Kent) is now living with Lois Lane (Amy Adams), who the film keeps sending on strictly expository Daily Planet assignments. Far too much time has to be reserved for laying Justice League groundwork, including shoehorned appearances by ageless Amazonian and future team player Wonder Woman (Gal Gadot).
- Batman v Superman Will Make You Hate Batman, Superman, and the Justice League by Helen O'Hara [GQ]
It says a lot of very depressing things about our world right now that this astonishingly dumb film has real-life parallels. Batman V Superman: Dawn Of Justice is the story of a self-important billionaire with a casual attitude to the truth, who becomes paranoid about a segment of the immigrant population. He decides to take brutal and - as it happens - entirely unjustified and even self-endangering action against that immigrant, to the benefit of a rich psychopath who wants to distract everyone from their own nefarious grasp at power.
- Woman Woman Can't Save Dull "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice by Kristy Puchko [Comic Book Resources]
But it's not all grim, grit and tedious monologues about father-son drama. There's also Wonder Woman. Gal Gadot appears, and it's like someone switched a light on. Batman and Superman battle with faces that suggest someone is forcing them to eat their vegetables. But when Wonder Woman shows up on the scene, she wields a confident smile alongside her shield. She loves being a warrior, and this detail gives the final fight scene some desperately needed life. Likewise, certain cameos make promises of movies that might some day break from Snyder's unrelentingly bleak atmosphere. But until then, we have this. Overambitious and overlong, "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" aims to tell a collection of stories instead of focusing on one. In doing so, it underserves its classic characters, undercuts its battle scenes, and disrespects the audience who has been waiting decades to see this epic showdown on the big screen.
- Yawn of Justice by Michael Phillips [Chicago Tribune]
Having killed thousands of innocent bystanders at the end of “Man of Steel,” high-flying alien Superman is now considered a pariah by many. Batman, meanwhile, has hardened into a boozy sociopath (a “criminal,” says Wayne himself) who wants to murder the alien invader with the “S” as badly as Lex Luthor, played by a skittery, occasionally amusing Jesse Eisenberg. Luthor wants to destroy them both. An hour into “Batman v. Superman,” you wonder: Can we just settle this little spat and move on to Gadot’s “Wonder Woman” movie?
- Ben Affleck’s Got the Cool Car, But Wonder Woman Steals the Show by Alonso Duralde [The Wrap]
Genuine surprise is the rock-bottom agenda item for this latest offering from the TimeWarner-DC Comics juggernaut, since it’s been designed to launch the company’s own set of superhero team-up and solo adventures, following the trail blazed so successfully by the distinguished competition over at Disney/Marvel. Subsequently, we get a little Batman origin story — Martha Wayne’s pearls rain down on Gotham City’s Crime Alley just as sure as Rapunzel’s hair tumbles from her tower — and a little empire-building as well. (The movie all but hits the pause button for about five minutes to lay the groundwork for sequels to come.) And what of the title’s promised skirmish? That face-off between two comics legends becomes but one in a series of big things bashing into other big things, which is what Snyder and writers Chris Terrio and David S. Goyer mistake for storytelling. The trio do manage to cough up an acceptable number of ooh-that’s-cool moments, and fans who will be satisfied with those will be satisfied with those, but any other ideas and characters the movie might offer get lost in the rubble.
- The Overstuffed Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Builds a World, But Is It One We Want? by David Edelstein [Vulture]
It’s a shame that Batman v Superman is also a storytelling disgrace. It has maybe six opening scenes and jumps so incessantly from subplot to subplot that a script doctor would diagnose a peculiarly modern infection: “disjunctivitis.” Said infection is the upshot of a sort of gene-splicing. For a studio to move beyond the “franchise” and “tentpole” stages to the vastly lucrative “universe,” a comic-book movie must at every turn gesture towards sequels and spinoffs, teasing out loose ends, cultivating irresolution. The movie wanders into so many irrelevant byways that it comes to seem abstract. There’s enough going on to keep you watching — and, as I said, to keep fanboys wowed by the scale of the production and pretension. But most people will leave feeling drained and depressed, wondering how a studio can get away with withholding so much.
posted by Fizz (590 comments total) 21 users marked this as a favorite
 
Zack Snyder’s Doomsday: This is a very bad movie.
To say that Superman v Batman: Dawn of Justice is a bad movie doesn’t go far enough. This film feels like Zack Snyder hobbling the entire upcoming DC Movieverse before it gets started. It’s small things, like revealing that Lex Luthor names all the members of the Justice League and gives them their symbols. It’s big things, like where the film leaves the story at the end. And it’s things in between, because the first two movies in this universe have been all about why heroism is essentially bad.
posted by brundlefly at 1:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm going to see Deadpool this weekend. That's all I can say about Batman v Superman.
posted by Pendragon at 1:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [44 favorites]


I have to admit, I'm disappointed. I really disliked Man of Steel, but this looked bonkers and colorful enough that I wanted it to succeed. I'll evaluate it myself, obviously, but I've heard mostly bad stuff from the critics I follow and respect.
posted by brundlefly at 1:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't wait to hate/watch this.
posted by Fizz at 1:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just not the same without the iconic "POW", "BAM", "WHAM" style graphics. How is one supposed to know who the bad guys are?
posted by sammyo at 1:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Conundrum: "If you haven't seen the movie, how do you know you hate it?" is problematic, because YES, it's unfair to so heavily criticize a piece of art you haven't viewed...but if you view it in theaters, you're PAYING to view it, and therefore the film industry will equate your money to APPROVAL.

Ultimately, money is the only real lever of influence on a studio's direction. The Transformers films objectively suck, everyone with a serious opinion says they suck...but they also make a ton of money, and therefore the studio keeps making more. The studio isn't embarrassed by the poor quality of a product when it makes money.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]


and I left feeling like I’d had just been yelled at by someone I don’t know on a bus.

So this is a fucking great simile. I feel like tipping the writer it's so good.

But now I'm trying to imagine the filmmaker who is the "Spock in a bathrobe" to Zack Snyder's "Guy with Boombox".
posted by selfnoise at 1:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [42 favorites]


Gosh, who could have predicted Zack Snyder would make another terrible superhero film?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [54 favorites]


So, they tell me that Zootopia is pretty great.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [28 favorites]


If Darth Vader can destroy cities, so can Superman, Zack Snyder says
I went, really? And I said, well, what about [Star Wars: Episode VII—The Force Awakens]? In Star Wars they destroy five planets with billions of people on them. That’s gotta be one of the highest death toll movies in history, the new Star Wars movie, if you just do the math.

Never mind that, in Star Wars, it’s the villains who blow up those planets, and the central conflict of the film involves the good guys trying to stop the bad guys from performing such shocking acts of space genocide.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 1:10 PM on March 23, 2016 [38 favorites]


Thanks for the summation, Fizz. I hadn't planned on seeing it, and now I'm further convinced there's no need.

(Is anyone making book on when Disney will buy Warner Bros.?)
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Someone get DC's intellectual property out of Zack Snyder's hands. There's so much good stuff there, but he's drowning it in poop. Yes, poop.
posted by blue_beetle at 1:13 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]


(And give it to Timm and Dini, problem solved.)
posted by entropicamericana at 1:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yes, poop.

Poop is too mild:

Even a little kid (like the ones who will be scarred if you take them to see this movie) knows that Batman and Superman will eventually become friends. The way it happens is so ridiculous that I wanted to throw popcorn at the screen, but this was at least two hours in and I’d already eaten it all. It hinges on a coincidence going back to the golden age of comics. Bruce Wayne’s mother and Clark Kent’s mother are both named Martha. Once Batman realises this, he lowers his fists and decides to stop hating Superman and join him on his quest to save the planet. That’s it. That’s all it takes. Warner Brothers is banking a zillion-dollar franchise on asinine writing like this. May Zod have mercy on us all.
posted by nubs at 1:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [35 favorites]


FACT: At the time that Superman and Batman made their first comic-book appearances, approximately 4 out of every 5 American women were named Martha.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:19 PM on March 23, 2016 [23 favorites]


Admittedly, I'm taking some sick pleasure in all these bad reviews of BvS. Because it looked terrible in the trailers, because Man of Steel was HOLYSHIT BAD and I'm tired of Hollywood repeatedly spending a quarter of billion dollars to make a movie and fucking it up.

Current viewing plans call for skipping BvS on opening weekend and only seeing it at the cheap matinee, if at all, in a few weeks. 'Cause fuck this.

As a fan of genre, don't feed me shit time after time and expect me to spend money on it, especially in this age. Deadpool and Zootopia are still in the theater and worth paying money to see again, there's 26 hours of Daredevil and 13 hours of Jessica Jones on Netflix, which cost me less than the price of single movie ticket, and there's plenty of super hero genre shows on regular tv that are of better quality that I can watch FOR FREE.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:20 PM on March 23, 2016 [29 favorites]


Damn it. Although Man of Steel was bad, I was quietly and stupidly hoping that Snyder would somehow manage to turn Batman V Superman into something Watchmen-y. Silly me. Still going to watch it though. Just to regret the decision afterwards, probably.

Also, another one: Batman V Superman Is V Bad: Whereas, in the end, his attempts at operatic solemnity are foiled by the same plague infecting the now far-superior Marvel movies --- okay, that's enough.

Heh. He. Yawn of Justice.
posted by sapagan at 1:20 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Adding another one to the pile.

Matt Zoller Seitz, RogerEbert.com:

“Batman vs. Superman” is a disorganized, lead-footed movie that carries itself with unearned confidence; you see every card it’s about to play ten minutes before the movie plays it, yet Snyder doesn’t just slap each one down on the table with gusto, he keeps pointing to it and telling you what rank and suit it is.
posted by nubs at 1:20 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]


I don't begrudge people who like this sort of thing liking this thing, but boy do I wish there was a movie about Superman I could enjoy wholeheartedly in theaters.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:22 PM on March 23, 2016 [20 favorites]


It will take great moral fortitude no resist all of the negative reviews. Its like the movie review version of a car crash, I want to read all the snark. I'm normally pro-spoiler, but I want to go into this one cold. I have a single ticket for myself Friday afternoon. No friends or family and certainly my partner want to see the movie.

I'm inordinately excited about this movie. I hated Watchmen but liked a lot of Man of Steel, although it felt like an Elseworlds story. Maybe its is the Image Comics loving pre-teen in me who made many suspect comic buying decisions back in the day.
posted by kittensofthenight at 1:22 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Finally a place to put this!

Batman vs Superman vs Jimmy Kimmel
posted by Mchelly at 1:24 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


One of the reviews I looked at mentions that in this movie Batman is branding criminals. Like, literally marking them with permanent indicia of the nature of their crimes.

I've expressed my feelings about David Goyer and Zack Snyder here previously, but man...right down in at my core, I'm a DC fan. I became aware of the Justice League, as a concept, at the age of 6 during a family trip to Estes Park, Colorado, so this would have been in 1973. At some very tourist-oriented store they were selling a hugely oversized comic book featuring a crossover between the Justice League and the Justice Society, all depicted flying out from the center of the cover as if they were about the leave the page. I was fucking entranced by that image.

I've seen numerous iterations of these characters and this team over the years, ranging from terrible to great, perfunctorily commercial to hugely ambitious, grimfaced dramatic to slapstick comedy. I was pretty certain that I was going to dislike this movie on grounds of character misinterpretation. I was pretty sure I'd find it kind of loud and hollow. So I'm not surprised to hear any of this, except that it sounds even worse and more wrong-headed than even my very pessimistic expectations. What a fucking bummer.
posted by Ipsifendus at 1:24 PM on March 23, 2016 [12 favorites]


I have to admit, the growing pile of negative reviews of this does make me want to see it. In the same way I want to rubberneck when I drive past an accident.

But I'll wait until it shows up on Netflix or something.
posted by nubs at 1:25 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


One of the few things I relish sharing with the religious right is the ability to denounce a film without having seen it. Problem I have is we never agree about which films to denounce. I'm going to go ahead and come down on the side of this movie sucking (sight unseen). I can't imagine the evangelicals endorsing this film though, so we may finally agree on something.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:26 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm watching Legends of Tomorrow right now on Hulu, just because Firestorm's in it, and every single time I see Brandon Routh on the screen with the Jailbreak guys in a mediocre (although enjoyable, I think... Firestorm!) show, it just blows me away how (first-world, relatively) unlucky he was. One Superman movie and now he's on the CW.

Bryan Singer's Superman Returns has some problems, for sure, but it just cares so much more about the character, and there are some really beautiful moments in it. When I was a kid, I wondered what would happen if a bullet hit Superman in the eye, and holy crap it happened in that movie! Someone else wondered the same thing and put it in a movie! And when Superman is floating out in the atmosphere listening for people in trouble, I love that. That's stuff Superman would actually do, not destroy a tractor trailer because some redneck sassed him in a bar, wtf.

I didn't mind Snyder's, really, but I don't see it as a superman movie, just sort of a ripoff or generic superhero movie. I actually really liked his Watchmen; I guess I was the only one, though.
posted by Huck500 at 1:27 PM on March 23, 2016 [15 favorites]


So I'm really not a comics guy, but I bump into superhero stuff in a lot of the media I consume. Would someone be willing to explain how near-god Superman doesn't easily overpower very strong gadget-having human being Batman? Or do they just gloss over that with 20 minutes of CGI+SFX fighting? I'm honestly just curious how this works these days.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:27 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is the song they're referring to re: Wonder Woman showing up, I assume.

It's... all right?
posted by qcubed at 1:28 PM on March 23, 2016


boy do I wish there was a movie about Superman I could enjoy wholeheartedly in theaters.

For one of my birthday parties as a kid, I got Mom and Dad to take everyone to see Superman, the 1978 one. As hokey as that was Richard Donner showed that this isn't that hard. Donner isn't one of the all time greats as far as directing goes (though Goonies, Lethal Weapon, Ladyhawke), but he sure understood the characters and how to make them into heroes in the eyes of a passel of preteens.
posted by bonehead at 1:28 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]




I hope more people start talking about the production cause I've heard STORIES.
posted by The Whelk at 1:29 PM on March 23, 2016 [25 favorites]


I have to admit, the growing pile of negative reviews of this does make me want to see it. In the same way I want to rubberneck when I drive past an accident.

But I'll wait until it shows up on Netflix or something.


Same, and same. The trailers have looked inexecrable from the very start, but seeing how much Snyder has just completely face planted with this bomb is actually making me want to see it. But, at the same time, the description of the first hour of setup is funny in text, but probably a lot less funny when I actually have to experience Snyder try to tell a story.

Here's hoping this is the end of his career, or at least a downward inflection point.
posted by codacorolla at 1:31 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


I hope more people start talking about the production cause I've heard STORIES.

If it flops (which it won't, it will possibly just underperform), then the stories will flow like wine.
posted by cell divide at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


'blithering chaos'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2016


As a DC fan and a spiteful person, my only hope for this is that it poisons the superhero-movie-where-the-superheroes-who-should-be-friends-are-punching-each-other well and Civil War tanks at the box office. Oh who am I kidding everybody will love it and it'll spawn mountains of memes and fanfic and Netflix spinoff shows.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:32 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Six Seasons and a Movie!!
posted by Fizz at 1:33 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


So I'm really not a comics guy, but I bump into superhero stuff in a lot of the media I consume. Would someone be willing to explain how near-god Superman doesn't easily overpower very strong gadget-having human being Batman?

I haven't seen the flick, but Batman/Superman fights in the comics have generally involved kryptonite.
posted by baf at 1:34 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


One of the few great things about this film being so bad, the puns that critics have been using to describe the film. My favourite thus far being: 'Yawn of Justice'.
posted by Fizz at 1:35 PM on March 23, 2016


Glad to hear that this movie makes Neal Adam's Batman: Odyssey look logical, restrained, and with a good grasp of its characters.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:35 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


near-god Superman doesn't easily overpower very strong gadget-having human being Batman

In The Dark Night Strikes Again, I think, Batman had kryptonite gauntlets and beats the crap out of Superman, haha. He had help, though, including The Atom getting in Superman's ear and screwing up his equilibrium.
posted by Huck500 at 1:36 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I feel like DC has really taken the wrong course with these movies. They seem to want to go all dark and gritty, and leave behind the silliness and campiness of superheroes like Superman and Batman. As a kid I felt like Marvel took that more "serious business" approach with its comics (could be wrong here, haven't read many in a looong time), but regardless their movies are actually way more fun, have a sense of humor about themselves, and don't take themselves too seriously. The original Superman movies were fun and stupid and actually kinda memorable, in a way the reboots are not. Same with the Burton Batmans before Burton completely became a parody of himself. I guess I'm just not down for a movie about a ridiculously overpowered superhero asking me to take it real seriously.
posted by Hoopo at 1:36 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


> The darkest moment of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice is a montage of Bruce Wayne, played by an emotive rectangle of muscle and tendons known as Ben Affleck, prepping for his Superman fight by doing CrossFit.

I am not the target audience for this film, but I used to read a lot of comics and when my friends and I would have our comic book bull sessions (mostly "Who would win in fight between...?") and the topic of Superman and Batman getting in a fight came up, the idea that Batman would slow Superman down any more than a bug hitting a car would slow down the car annoyed me to no end. I had the same problem with the fight in The Dark Knight Returns a few years later. This movie should be 30 seconds long, tops.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:36 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


Batman/Superman fights in the comics have generally involved kryptonite.

Kryptonite! There's always kryptonite. Like, this should be your first clue you've written yourself into a bit of a corner and should just have fun with it because it's so silly.
posted by Hoopo at 1:37 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm going to see Deadpool this weekend. That's all I can say about Batman v Superman.

I'm burning through the box set of original Adam West Batman right now, and having the time of my fucking life. A superhero who is actually fun to watch -- what a concept. I saw the BvS trailer in the theatre the other day, and even in just those two minutes, was simultaneously bored, exhausted, and depressed.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [12 favorites]


I skipped Man of Steel, and I'll be skipping Dawn of Justice as well, because I am so, so fed up with all the grim/dark. It was all I could do to sit through the end of last Batman movie (and I still haven't watched the last Hobbit movie, either).

But I must say that these reviews almost make me want to hate-watch it. Almost.

And: the story of a self-important billionaire with a casual attitude to the truth, who becomes paranoid about a segment of the immigrant population - this is hysterical. Donald Trump is ... Batman!
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2016


Batman's superpower is plotting, both within and outside of the narrative.
posted by bonehead at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't begrudge people who like this sort of thing liking this thing, but boy do I wish there was a movie about Superman I could enjoy wholeheartedly in theaters.

I like Superman. It's something I've really come into as an adult, when I think I've developed a deeper appreciation for the earnestness and become fonder of the pathos of his situation and all kinds of things that seem dopey when you're a kid, but are nice when you're an adult who spends the majority of his life in the messy real world. There's so many great storytelling opportunities around that part of the character, which could more genuinely mature than anything involving gritty punching in dark alleys.

In 2016, though, for live-action entertainment, those opportunities are pretty much only explored on Supergirl.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]


I mean at this point we're just trying to diagnose Synder's weird father issues via the medium of modern movie-making than actually enjoying his output.
posted by The Whelk at 1:38 PM on March 23, 2016 [28 favorites]


Yeah, kryptonite got pretty old pretty fast even when I was a little kid. It was the Superman equivalent of "Look, a canal!"
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:39 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


That owl movie Zac Snyder did was actually pretty good.
posted by Fizz at 1:39 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


In Superman: Red Son, the Batman analog almost won without kryptonite - he used light filtered to be like Krypton's. It didn't work out. Superman also took down most of the Justiec League analogs in two pages. Eventually Lex did win using only a slip of paper in his pocket.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:40 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


"Pa [Kent] heard the screams of the drowning horses in his sleep every night." Now, isn't that the Superman movie you've always wanted to see?
posted by factory123 at 1:41 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


Suckerpunch looked okay I guess with the sound off in the background while I was playing cards. Also I was drunk.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:41 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]




In The Dark Night Strikes Again, I think, Batman had kryptonite gauntlets and beats the crap out of Superman, haha. He had help, though, including The Atom getting in his ear and screwing up his equilibrium.

In The Dark Knight Returns, it was Batman in powered armor squaring off against a Superman who had just been through the detonation of a nuclear warhead. In addition, Batman had cruise missiles, a Batmobile that was basically a tank, and Batman's armor was drawing power from the city grid. Oh, and he had Green Arrow shooting kyrptonite arrows. Batman lost, but only because he threw the fight in the end.
posted by nubs at 1:43 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


You don't need kryptonite to beat Superman. Just give him the Spear of Longinus and he'll turn into SuperHitler, take over the world, and then destroy himself in regret.
posted by charred husk at 1:44 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh look, it dipped under 40% on Rotten Tomatoes again. I guess it's not coming back up.

There's no way in hell this thing is making its money back, is there?

/munches popcorn.
posted by Artw at 1:45 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


One common thread I have noticed that seems to run throughout all of these reviews, that Wonder Woman is supposedly the bright star and saving grace of this film.
posted by Fizz at 1:45 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


Someone get The Helm of Fate on Rami Malek stat!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Oh no! They are headed for the abandoned building district!"
— Offscreen dialogue I am looking forward to hearing in Batman V Superman tonight
posted by Senor Cardgage at 1:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]


One common thread I have noticed that seems to run throughout all of these reviews, that Wonder Woman is supposedly the bright star and saving grace of this film.

Wonder Woman / Han Seoul spin off series!
posted by Artw at 1:48 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I skipped Man of Steel

It was literally the worst superhero movie I've ever seen, so I imagine I'll be pirating and hatewatching this'un at some point a few months from now.
posted by Greg Nog at 1:48 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


I usually enjoy Snyder's films more than the critics. I liked Watchmen and Man of Steel well enough.

But a buddy of mine is going tomorrow evening and if he says it's not good, I'm going to give it a pass.
posted by Fleebnork at 1:50 PM on March 23, 2016


I didn't even get as far as the bits of Man of Steel everybody hates, it was so fucking boring. I suspect this ones primary sun will be boring and unengadging despite a surfeit of incident as well.
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wonder Woman / Han Seoul spin off series!

Oh my dog!?! Han Seoul as Steve Trevor. They just fly around in her invisible jet solving crimes and shit!??! TAKE MY FUCKING MONEY!??!
posted by Fizz at 1:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


I guess we have to give Zack Snyder credit for creating a new super-villain: Zack Snyder.
posted by benito.strauss at 1:52 PM on March 23, 2016 [16 favorites]


It was literally the worst superhero movie I've ever seen

was that the one where he can somehow lift an entire island made of kryptonite or the other one
posted by Hoopo at 1:52 PM on March 23, 2016


And who the hell is this Jesse Eisenberg fellow supposed to be?
posted by Alexander J. Luthor at 1:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]


Superman Retirns really not looking so bad right now. Sure he's a shit dad and he doesn't punch anything, but now we know what happens if he only punches.

(And laser eyes. Always the lasering.)
posted by Artw at 1:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


The answer to how Batman can hold a candle against Superman in a fight is simple: because Superman lets him.

Such fights are premised on the axiom that Superman is a good guy and won't just kill Bruce instantly, and will hold back enough to allow Bruce to do something. It's been a while since I read The Dark Knight Returns, but I believe Bruce even says this at one point.

Not to mention that the fight in TDKR was a feint: Batman was only trying to put on a good enough show to convince people he really went down swinging. He enjoyed hurting Superman a little, but it wasn't really a question of who could actually win.

There's a lot of context and history behind the TDKR fight that I think people forget or gets lost if you talk about it in isolation as just "Batman vs. Superman".
posted by Sangermaine at 1:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [15 favorites]


Hire the guys who did the Lego Movie. I'd rather listen to two hours of Batman's "Darkness" song than sit through another Zack Snyder film.
posted by Zonker at 1:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [21 favorites]


Maybe this film gets buried at the box office but then Clarke Kent hears a heartbeat and does a big cheesy wink at Robin?
posted by Artw at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


They're supposed to do the Flash movie! So I'm looking forward to that one.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Zonker - NO PARENTS.
posted by Artw at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


I predict that of all the orange and teal movies, this will be the orangest and tealest.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:55 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'd rather listen to two hours of Batman's "Darkness" song than sit through another Zack Snyder film.

Good news!
posted by bonehead at 1:56 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


As someone who genuinely likes superhero films & doesn't care for talk of superhero movie "fatigue," I wanted this film to do well. Superman has never been my thing, and honestly, I'm over Bats...but I wanted this to do well for Wonder Woman's sake and for the sake of the genre.

But I have to confess: I'm also happy to see this movie tank if for no other reason than I still haven't forgiven David Goyer for talking mad, ignorant shit about She-Hulk and I probably never will. Not until he issues a genuine, tearful apology.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:58 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]


Zack Snyder laughed.

"Do you mean to tell me that you're thinking seriously of filming that way, when and if you are a director?"

"Yes."

"My dear fellow, who will let you?"

"That's not the point. The point is, who will stop me?"
posted by Doktor Zed at 1:58 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe this film gets buried at the box office but then Clarke Kent hears a heartbeat and does a big cheesy wink at Robin?

Captain Sunshine?
posted by sapagan at 2:00 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


They're supposed to do the Flash movie! So I'm looking forward to that one.

I guess? I don't know why they'd make Flash GRIMDARKITYGRIM, and Zack Snyder has pretty much said he's not going to link to the by all accounts v enjoyable Flash TV show.
posted by qcubed at 2:00 PM on March 23, 2016


As long as he lets Lord & Miller do their thing I'm fine with it not being part and parcel of the Flash/Arrow/Legendsverse.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:01 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


As cell divide says above, because it's BvS is big-budget blockbuster it's going to make money. The question is whether it underperforms.

If BvS does okay but isn't the home-run DC/WB was counting on, they're going to be revising their DCEU plans. You'll see the same thing that happened at Sony with the ASM franchise: disappointing movies that didn't flop but didn't do so well and provided diminishing returns that hamstrung all these grand plans for a host of spin-off movies.

It's too bad, DC has a lot to offer, just not under Snyder. Why can't they just appoint Grant Morrison and maybe Mark Waid to write these movies?
posted by Sangermaine at 2:01 PM on March 23, 2016


> Pa heard the screams of the drowning horses in his sleep every night.

I can't believe this is for real in the movie, but the review doesn't seem to be joking. Why not just name Ma Clarice instead of Martha, and ask her about the silence of the horses instead?
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:01 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't believe Superman straight up killed Batman in first 10 mins and the rest of the movie was just flashbacks. Really thought they were building it into a franchise.
posted by Damienmce at 2:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]


I can't believe this is for real in the movie

Believe it, because I've seen it from more than a few people. That along with half a dozen dream sequences for Bats, Wonder Woman does not speak to or acknowledge anyone but Bats, and apparently Bats sure does kill a lot of people. With guns.

What a weird Batman movie.
posted by Sternmeyer at 2:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Someone get DC's intellectual property out of Zack Snyder's hands.

If this performs the way the reviews indicate, I think that will take care of itself.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 2:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I liked the Snyder reboot of Superman. it has the feel of one of DC's perpetual forays into animated YA shows like Young Justice or the 2014 JL v Darkseid. except with better dialogue, prettier visuals, and less 'summing this plot thing up in a second that nobody but comic nerds will get but we need to do to explain this character'

it's just a dumb ol slice of explosioney pie that's being held to like super high standards. of course it's not going to pass. but it's fun if you're a dumb teen and you want to see something like the Chronicles of Riddick but with less growling and more punches through buildings
posted by runt at 2:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I keep calling this movie Orphan Fight in my head.
posted by palomar at 2:11 PM on March 23, 2016 [43 favorites]


Wonder Woman does not speak to or acknowledge anyone but Bats, and apparently Bats sure does kill a lot of people. With guns.

So what you're saying is that the entire movie is a dream Ben Affleck had after eating too many fajitas?

Hmm, Ok now I'm in

but it's fun if you're a dumb teen and you want to see something like the Chronicles of Riddick

I feel like only a very specific teen knows what Chronicles of Riddick is, or perhaps you are Rip Van Diesel?
posted by selfnoise at 2:11 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Pa heard the screams of the drowning horses in his sleep every night.

I can't believe this is for real in the movie, but the review doesn't seem to be joking. Why not just name Ma Clarice instead of Martha, and ask her about the silence of the horses instead?


Are we recasting Silence of the Lambs with DC Superheros!?! Ok I'm game, let's do this:

Batgirl as Clarice Starling
The Joker as Dr. Hannibal Lecter
Commissioner Gordon as Jack Crawford
Twoface as Jame "Buffalo Bill" Gumb
Amanda Waller as Dr. Frederick Chilton
Alfred as Barney Matthews
posted by Fizz at 2:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


something like the Chronicles of Riddick

The most recent Riddick movie was charmingly weird, first 40 mins of Vin alone in the desert playing with a space puppy.
posted by Damienmce at 2:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]


Just make a movie of Kate Beaton's Wonder Woman already!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [16 favorites]


Just make a movie of Kate Beaton's Wonder Woman already!

I think what you really meant to say was She-Hulk, but that's ok.
posted by Fizz at 2:13 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


She-Hulk needs to be an "Ally McBeal with superpowers" comedy set in MCU New York. Done by Netflix. Called "Single Green Female." Hasn't this already been decided by all right-thinking people?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:16 PM on March 23, 2016 [33 favorites]


Honestly, if you really want a lancet to pierce this self-important pimple the best medicine would be a N.E.X.T.W.A.V.E. movie.

I mean there is a character named Dirk Anger
posted by selfnoise at 2:16 PM on March 23, 2016 [8 favorites]


I actually really liked [Snyder's] Watchmen; I guess I was the only one, though.

I liked bits of it, but overall it was a combination of fascinating and frustrating. The performances of the principals was either very good (Rorschach and Nite Owl), good enough (Dr. Manhattan and the Comedian), or kind of painful to watch (Silk Spectre and Ozymandias, although I understand that the actors are good in other things). There are scenes that are literally treating the comic as a storyboard where it would have been better to be a bit more creative and cinematic in how the scene was done, and others where he should have followed the original narrative more closely. Overall, I feel like there's a better movie strugging to get out from under the weight of something like a super-sized version of those lead aprons that the dental assistant puts over you when you're having your teeth X-rayed.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:16 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


it's just a dumb ol slice of explosioney pie that's being held to like super high standards

This is a weak argument, and yet somebody always, always makes it whenever an action-oriented movie is judged to be bad. To be very clear: nobody expects this move to be a Bergman film. We're all aware of the genre that this movie is a part of. It's not being dismissed for being a superhero blockbuster. It's being dismissed for being a confusing, humorless, slog of a superhero blockbuster.
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:16 PM on March 23, 2016 [33 favorites]


I actually really liked [Snyder's] Watchmen; I guess I was the only one, though.

Snyder, being Snyder, made the same mistakes with the movie that writers after Moore made when trying to ape Watchmen: they missed all the nuance, intelligence, and complexity of Watchmen that made it resonate with so many people in favor of focusing on the surface elements like hardcore, violent action and how bad-ass Rorschach is.

Maybe Snyder is just a living incarnation of late 80s/early 90s mainstream American comics. It would explain his complete inability to write anything good.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:24 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]


That would imply he has good Doom Patrol, Hellblazer and Animal Man films in Him.
posted by Artw at 2:29 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is not going well:
> Not as bad as Bush v. Gore, but close.

Down to 37% on the Tomatometer.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:30 PM on March 23, 2016


Batman v. Superman (featuring Harvey Birdman) would probably be a better movie.
posted by lmfsilva at 2:32 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


One common thread I have noticed that seems to run throughout all of these reviews, that Wonder Woman is supposedly the bright star and saving grace of this film.

I can't wait to go see her movie. I'll pass on this one.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:32 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Bright Star" may be pushing it.

I suppose if I were to list the things I like the most about the film, she would be on that short list, but that’s only compared to the things the film does more dramatically wrong. She is fine, but just looking at her appearance here, in the context of the film, I don’t feel any urgent need to ever see the character in action again. Is “fine” as much as I should expect of these characters?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:34 PM on March 23, 2016


Down to 37% on the Tomatometer.

And the Top Critics rating is even worse, dipping below 30%.

I'm really disappointed in this, as seeing Batman and Superman together on the big screen was a childhood dream. I can't believe that I actually just cancelled my tickets for Batman vs. Superman.

I mean, I'll eventually see it. When it makes it to the second run theater. But I can't contribute to the B.O. for this movie.
posted by Gaz Errant at 2:34 PM on March 23, 2016


That would imply he has good Doom Patrol, Hellblazer and Animal Man films in Him.

All Vertigo. Snyder's the mainstream. He's going to bring us an Extreme Justice movie.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:35 PM on March 23, 2016


Heh. Even Sandman is DCU.
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on March 23, 2016


Tell me, do you snark?

YOU WILL.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:39 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


It would actually be fun if someone made a balls-to-the-wall 90s-era XTREME comic movie. I once heard someone describe that era as the Silver Age on steroids.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:40 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Isn't that Deadpool?
posted by Artw at 2:40 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


It would actually be fun if someone made a balls-to-the-wall 90s-era XTREME comic movie.

Maybe then the boxes of early 90's comics I have in my parents' garage would be worth something.

...

Oh, who am I kidding, those are never going to be worth anything.
posted by Gaz Errant at 2:42 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


Zack Snyder movies are like that one guy you used to think was kind of hot and smart because he never smiled and wore black and read On the Road while sitting at the back of class, then you actually get to know him and realize he is actually shallow as fuck, kind of an asshole, and has enough baggage to fill up several large cargo planes, especially where women are concerned.
posted by emjaybee at 2:42 PM on March 23, 2016 [34 favorites]


Wonder how it will do at the box office... suspect the momentum of the advertising will give a decent opening then word of mouth will totally poison the second week and beyond
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:46 PM on March 23, 2016


Yasss, release your geek hate!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:48 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]


It'll bring in money, but so much has been sunk into it already I can't see it earning back its costs.
posted by Artw at 2:48 PM on March 23, 2016


It'll have a three figure million dollar opening....and either A) win over the hoped audience despite the reviews or B) Plummet like a freakin' rock.
posted by Atreides at 2:49 PM on March 23, 2016


In its favor April looks like a bit of a void for releases, so it might hang around longer than it would otherwise.
posted by Artw at 2:50 PM on March 23, 2016


I went through all my old comics in my parents attic recently, picked some nostalgic favorites and still readable collections, then sold the rest at a garage sale. All the love and rockets and stuff from my late high school years went fast, as did comics with characters that are in movies now. I was left with a couple hundred unreadable and embarrassing Image books, Xtreme Marvel characters like Morbius and Darkhawk, and a bunch of early manga from Viz and Dark Horse. Some guy came from a couple hundred miles away and bought all of it for a hundred bucks. So. Worth something, at least worth the effort of getting stuff out of yr parents garage. Some of that stuff is really embarrassing and makes me wish there was a Comics Code that judged based on rampant sexism.

But anyway I assume Snyder grew up in the same comics culture. I thought that Superman and Batman and all of DC was phenomenally uncool and dorky at the time, even the art seemed like a throwback. Wish I had better taste back then and could be going through back issues of Morrison's Justlice League and 90s Flash.
posted by kittensofthenight at 2:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why DC looked at their potential movie universe and decided to give it to Zach Snyder. This is a guy who completely misunderstands it's third most important character. Superman, a character who exudes every ounce of warmth out of his alien pores, a character who requires empathy and understanding and decided to give it to a guy whose movies barely understand what characters are. And then they set Nolan, another director whose coldness towards his characters undermines a lot of his films, as a supervisor.

Man of Steel was a perfect movie to show how to completely do Superman wrong. Superman is a boy scout, a puppy, the marshmallows melting in a mug of hot chocolate. Like, there are a plethora of fantastic Superman stories out there and they were like "Let's kill Zod. Bam. Best idea."

I get that DC wanted to differentiate themselves from Marvel but wow they've made so many wrong decisions. I kind of want to watch this trainwreck (just for Gal Gadot who was the best part of Fast Five) but at two and a half hours? No thanks. They took one step forward by casting Momoa as Aquaman but then took a step back by not announcing a Booster Gold movie.
posted by Neronomius at 2:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]


From A.O. Scott's NYT review: "It is about as diverting as having a porcelain sink broken over your head (one of the more amusing things that happens onscreen)."
posted by Gaz Errant at 2:52 PM on March 23, 2016




Wonder Woman better be the best part...she's FUCKING WONDER WOMAN.

/retreats to the 1970s with my pre-teen crush on Linda Carter.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:54 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


WONDER WOMAN!!!!!!

OK, I'll stop now. Sorry.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:56 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Maybe Snyder is just a living incarnation of late 80s/early 90s mainstream American comics.


Quick- check his feet!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:57 PM on March 23, 2016 [27 favorites]


It'll bring in money, but so much has been sunk into it already I can't see it earning back its costs.

I can't imagine the film not making back its cost, at the very least. Especially when it's in a global market, with an IMAX release, DVD/Blue ray releases, product placement and licensing (There's a frigging car commerical tie in). Sure, it cost $250M to make and probably another 100M to market, but these films are designed to be money makers. It'll probably do about 600-700M, at least.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:57 PM on March 23, 2016


Batman Is A Corny Dingus, And Superman Should Whomp His Ass

As a matter of principle, Superman should murderlize Batman because... Ben Affleck.
posted by My Dad at 3:01 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


How about Superman Does Not Kill, but Superman Okay With Lasering Off Feet?
posted by Artw at 3:03 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I refuse to believe that Ben Affleck is a better Batman than Christian Bale even though both men are losers in real life who don't deserve any admiration or acclaim. Bale is still better and I don't want Affleck anywhere near Marvel/DC stuff ever again because he taints everything he touches with his awfulness.

why yes I am team garner how did you know
posted by Hermione Granger at 3:04 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


Batman Is A Corny Dingus, And Superman Should Whomp His Ass


Surprisingly not a Wesley Willis lyric.

Rock over Metropolis! Rock on Chicago! The Daily Planet- it's your one-stop source for news!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:05 PM on March 23, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also my comment is in response to the bizarrely overwhelming positive reviews that the men in my life are giving of Affleck's performance so I'm just very perplexed right now
posted by Hermione Granger at 3:06 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I am old enough to remember when, about halfway through a film, the picture would disappear through the cigarette smoke haze and "INTERVAL" would appear in its place and the curtain with the frilly bits would swish and briefly close, as cinema screens had curtains then though on reflection they were functionally pointless, and the lights in the side passageway that led to the corridors in the cinema would dimly go on to reveal a bored person standing there with a tray of ice creams, and you'd have to make a split-second decision about either going to the restroom if you needed it and coming back to find yourself at the back of a long queue for the ice creams behind the grandmother who is paying with small denomination coins which she is having difficulty seeing in the dim light, or running down over the sticky auditorium carpet so you could get at the front of the queue and buy an ice cream quickly and have time to eat it before those lights went off and the ice cream seller disappeared and the curtain with the frilly bits would reopen and the second half of the film would start, but they stopped doing that years, in fact decades, ago now and there's no "INTERVAL" so with long films you spend the last reel starting to feel hungry and your mind drifts and you lose concentration on the film and you find you don't really care anyway as the action bits all finished some time ago and Aragorn is king and the hobbits got rid of the ring finally and Gandalf is still not dead but appears to have magic self-cleaning clothing that gets cleaner and whiter as the film progresses, but instead of focusing on Elijah Wood looking a bit sad you try to figure out the nearest place to the cinema that serves acceptable food and will serve you quickly because you do not want to wait 45 minutes for a glorified and expensive pizza which on reflection is just a very large round piece of cheese on toast and you get impatient but you don't want to leave early as you paid a small fortune to see this film while wedged in a seat so tight that both of your buttocks went numb over an hour ago and you get fed up at feeling like a hostage to watching the film to the end so you know what the hell your dungeon and dragon playing office workmates are talking about tomorrow because it's either hang out with them or hang out with the weird guy who cuts his toenails in an open plan office and keeps a flick knife in his partially open desk draw and the nerds are safety in numbers, but you start to wish you'd waited a while to get hold of a copy from the dodgy bloke at the market whose friend keeps an eye out for the market inspectors or the police while he sells you a dubious looking copy of the film from a duffel bag while muttering "Nae returns" because if the copy of the film actually worked you could have then watched it in chunks while sprawled on your comfy sofa back home in your superman underpants but instead you sit there hating every aspect of the cinema experience and start saying things like "JUST GET ON THE FUCKING BOAT FRODO" a little too loudly and impatiently in an otherwise quiet cinema and that is why I am not seeing a superhero film that is 153 minutes long FIN.
posted by Wordshore at 3:12 PM on March 23, 2016 [82 favorites]


You are Irvine Welsh and I claim my five pounds.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:19 PM on March 23, 2016 [12 favorites]


Wonder how it will do at the box office... suspect the momentum of the advertising will give a decent opening then word of mouth will totally poison the second week and beyond

There's an audience for it - I'm going to suggest that it is mostly male, and they will be focused in on how "gritty" and "realistic" the movie is (which means its for adults, dontchaknow), along with how closely it adheres to canon in certain areas, and how it sets up other stories in the franchise. I'm not dismissing them; they exist, this movie is something they will probably like, and more power to them. Heck, if I was about 20 years younger, I'd probably be one of them myself.

I'd be more interested in taking the core ideas here - Superpowered Alien comes to Earth and could be a shining beacon of hope or terrifying overlord; one mortal takes it upon himself to stop him until learning that there are other/bigger threats and they come from other human beings - and seeing a movie that really wants to play with that idea and not have to feel beholden to a certain style (grim grimdark) and to pack in ties to all the other planned franchise menu items and make sure that enough buildings get destroyed. I mean, Power Corrupts is a great theme to glom onto here, and it seems to me that with Superpowered Being Through No Fault of His Own, Man who Made Himself Superpowered For Revenge, and Supergenius who uses his knowledge to gain Power, you could do a lot more than what it sounds like this movie has done (based on the reviews). Lots of good questions about how each of these use their power and resist (or don't) the temptation to just crush everything and remake the world to their desire, about different sources of power - strength, fear, intellect - and their applications and benefits and weaknesses. And then you bring in 5000 year-old Superpowered Woman who is all "been there, done that" in regards to these questions, and have her sort these testosterone-fueled idiots out and set things to rights, preferably before it becomes an apocalyptic hellscape.
posted by nubs at 3:23 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


you get fed up at feeling like a hostage to watching the film

So do all who live to see such films. But run times are not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the run times that are given us.
posted by nubs at 3:31 PM on March 23, 2016 [19 favorites]


Fanfare
posted by MoonOrb at 3:36 PM on March 23, 2016


I refuse to believe that Ben Affleck is a better Batman than Christian Bale

I don't particularly like Afleck but for me all he'd have to do is drop the stupid growly voice.
posted by Hoopo at 3:41 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


And then they set Nolan, another director whose coldness towards his characters undermines a lot of his films, as a supervisor.

Okay, but apparently, even Nolan told Snyder and Goyer "DO NOT DO THE THING" for Man of Steel. DC also registered their disapproval!
This account is backed up by Goyer, who, in the same podcast, said that Nolan told them there was no way they could have that ending. He flat out told them not to write it. Goyer added that they talked to people at DC who told them “No way. No way.” Which Goyer and Snyder apparently didn’t see as a logical reading of the character, and more of a challenge to find the one situation where Superman would kill. Snyder said, later in the Empire podcast, “I just felt like we were able to create this scenario where either Superman is going to see these people get chopped in half or he’s gotta do what he’s gotta do.”

Snyder’s original reasoning for having Superman kill is more than a little disturbing:

The why of it for me was, well, if it’s truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained. It’s just in his DNA. And I felt like we needed him to do something—just like him putting on the glasses or going to the Daily Planet, or any of the other things that you’re sort of seeing for the first time, that you realize will then become sort of his thing.

Yes, if you don’t murder once, how can you ever come to the conclusion that murder is bad? That’s how morality works, right?
You guys, I'm real concerned about Snyder now. Like, "murder is bad and wrong and we shouldn't do it" is really not a statement that you want anyone to raise their hands all "OBJECTION, lacks foundation!! And speculation!" to, much less the guy in charge of helming a superhero franchise.
posted by yasaman at 3:42 PM on March 23, 2016 [24 favorites]


I feel like Affleck makes a good Miller-Batman (from what I've seen), and I like his outfits more than the Nolan/Bale outfits. And I think Cavill makes a good Superman. And I am still kind of pumped to see it, and will probably see it in an actual honest-to-god cinema, but I still think it looks like garbage.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


The why of it for me was, well, if it’s truly an origin story, his aversion to killing is unexplained. It’s just in his DNA. And I felt like we needed him to do something—just like him putting on the glasses or going to the Daily Planet, or any of the other things that you’re sort of seeing for the first time, that you realize will then become sort of his thing.

That snippet of interview just really gets at why Man of Steel didn't work for me. It wasn't the Zod killing because by the time we got there everything was already wrong; it was the fucked up understanding of the characters of Ma & Pa Kent and the fact that they are the fucking source of Superman's morality. He landed with an All-American, Mid-West farm family who instilled in him the core values of Truth, Justice, and the American Way. This isn't goddamn rocket science. Bad enough Pa Kent was averse to Clark doing anything that might help others out of fear; now they didn't even teach him the basics of civilization?
posted by nubs at 3:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


As a reminder to any studio executives reading, I'm available to make bad movies at a fraction of what you waste on Snyder.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [15 favorites]


I just looked up some photos of Snyder, which usefully confirmed what I already suspected: that his movie career should have started, and finished, with him playing the part of "Baseball Coach" in an American Pie or Scary Movie direct-to-video sequel. He would have been given no dialogue, like an extra playing an EMT, and the one scene with him in it would have been cut from the final film - it is only through administrative oversight that his name appears in the credits, and therefore IMDB, at all.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:02 PM on March 23, 2016


You guys, I'm real concerned about Snyder now. Like, "murder is bad and wrong and we shouldn't do it" is really not a statement that you want anyone to raise their hands all "OBJECTION, lacks foundation!! And speculation!"

eh...

I can see how there's some question as to why he won't kill some villain that is posing a mortal threat to innocent people, when in the real world people party the fuck down when we get news that the US killed a villain like Bin Laden, for example.
posted by Hoopo at 4:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


@Wordshore: You should submit that to McSweeney's.
posted by BentFranklin at 4:07 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was kind of hoping this wouldn't suck too bad despite the trailer. Oh well.
posted by doctor_negative at 4:08 PM on March 23, 2016


All this snark is delicious. I can't believe they fucked Justice League up so badly. The Giffen and DeMatteis stuff is right there!
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:09 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


From what I'm reading, I feel like we should just point to mhoye's wonderfully succint summation of 'Grizzlebrood McManpain Has A Tough Day.' Times two.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


As a reminder to any studio executives reading, I'm available to make bad movies at a fraction of what you waste on Snyder.

Hey studio exect, I'll do it for half of ob1quixote's price!

I can see how there's some question as to why he won't kill some villain that is posing a mortal threat to innocent people, when in the real world people party the fuck down when we get news that the US killed a villain like Bin Laden, for example.

I think there is a core demographic of Americans who will see this film and enjoy it, because Batman does kill within it. In the US there's all these existential threads from outside sources (re: muslims/brown people) and the terror of 9/11 has pushed the edge of American superheroes rightward to a mass audience. Killing the enemy, even in fiction (or especially in the realm of stories) is the right® thing to do these days.

I can't believe they fucked Justice League up so badly. The Giffen and DeMatteis stuff is right there!

Preach! But alas, that's too character driven, it's not deeeeep.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:15 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have one word for what HAD to be in this movie to justify its existence. ONE WORD. One word that sets the right tone all by itself.

Mxyzptlk.

That is all.
posted by delfin at 4:17 PM on March 23, 2016 [10 favorites]


Maybe fucking up the Justice League is what it will take for us to put these dull reiterations of tentpole hero origin stories to bed and get a Justice Society movie with all those much funner C-list heroes nobody's heard of!

j/k they'll be making dark growly Batman movies til the day I die
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:18 PM on March 23, 2016


I refuse to believe that Ben Affleck is a better Batman than Christian Bale

Would you believe Affleck is a better Affleck-as-Superman than Affleck-as-Batman?

Presenting Affleck vs. Affleck: Superman vs. Batman!
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:19 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Maybe Snyder is just a living incarnation of late 80s/early 90s mainstream American comics.

Question: does Snyder avoid drawing feet?
posted by beerperson at 4:21 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think there is a core demographic of Americans who will see this film and enjoy it, because Batman does kill within it. In the US there's all these existential threads from outside sources (re: muslims/brown people) and the terror of 9/11 has pushed the edge of American superheroes rightward to a mass audience. Killing the enemy, even in fiction (or especially in the realm of stories) is the right® thing to do these days.

And I find that trend deeply disturbing, to be honest. It's one thing to see a superhero like Captain America giving some Nazis probably fatal head trauma: he's a soldier, his origin is in WWII. His story is fundamentally a war story, and that involves killing his enemies. Whatever, fair enough. But Batman and Superman? There's a seriously significant part of both of their mythologies that's all about how they don't kill their enemies! It's foundational to their characters and their status as superheroes!

They are superheroes. They save lives. Full stop. The point of superheroes is not indiscriminate extrajudicial killings. We have real life and drones for that. I mean, I know no superhero franchise holds up to close moral scrutiny, but make a fucking effort.
posted by yasaman at 4:26 PM on March 23, 2016 [17 favorites]


Whatever else you might say about Affleck, he was the bomb in Phantoms, yo.
posted by Zonker at 4:30 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


Boy is there a lot of super heroics in Fanfare right now. Maybe this just isn't needed?
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on March 23, 2016


Boy is there a lot of super heroics in Fanfare right now. Maybe this just isn't needed?

Fanfare has a healing factor, it'll be ok.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:33 PM on March 23, 2016 [12 favorites]


Out of curiosity, does Darkseid rhyme with "weed" or "wide"? I'd always thought the former, but after discovering in Guardians of the Galaxy that I've been pronouncing Thanos wrong for forty years am concerned.

In more wrongness news, I've been assuming that they stole the city destruction thing from Marvelman while characteristically missing the entire fucking point of the original scene.
posted by Grangousier at 4:33 PM on March 23, 2016


Fanfare will be fine, but if there's a dozen superhero properties competing for attention they're really not the must-haves they used to be.
posted by Artw at 4:36 PM on March 23, 2016


Fan-OS?
posted by Artw at 4:36 PM on March 23, 2016


She-Hulk needs to be an "Ally McBeal with superpowers" comedy set in MCU New York. Done by Netflix. Called "Single Green Female."

Single greenish female
Fighting for her clients
Hulking out from gamma rays
And being self-reliant
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 4:36 PM on March 23, 2016 [43 favorites]


They are superheroes. They save lives. Full stop. The point of superheroes is not indiscriminate extrajudicial killings

I don't know if I watched Man of Steel, but was it indiscriminate?
posted by Hoopo at 4:36 PM on March 23, 2016


I was more referencing some of the spoilers coming out of the BvS reviews. You can say a lot of things about Superman killing Zod, but to be fair it was not indiscriminate.
posted by yasaman at 4:39 PM on March 23, 2016


The point of Man of Steel, at least as far as I watched it, was that Superman shouldn't help anybody.
posted by Artw at 4:39 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Out of curiosity, does Darkseid rhyme with "weed" or "wide"?

I've always pronounced it "Side," because of the ei pronunciation in "Stein", as in "Kissing Jessica Stein"
posted by Greg Nog at 4:40 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


Darkseid could also rhyme with "wade!"
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:41 PM on March 23, 2016


Kissing Darkseid is a different movie
posted by The Whelk at 4:44 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can only picture reruns of the Justice Friends when I think of the Justice League, and I bet there's the potential for a really fun movie if they want to go that route.
posted by teponaztli at 4:45 PM on March 23, 2016


Grangousier: Say out loud "I am the revelation! The Tiger-Force at the core of all things! When you cry out in your dreams it is Darkseid that you see!". This will tell you the correct pronunciation.
posted by Grimgrin at 4:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


I want to see Black Phillip vs Superman
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:48 PM on March 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


SUPERMANS NEWEST POWER: Satanic Butter Taste
posted by Artw at 4:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


Whatever else you might say about Affleck, he was the bomb in Phantoms, yo.

I thought he was okay in that, but he was far too young for the part. His character was supposed to be a former FBI agent who quit after a shooting incident and became a small-town sheriff. You want someone in his thirties at least, if not his forties, who can project a sort of weary-but-vulnerable stoicism about the situation--like, say, a circa-1980 Scott Glenn. Ben Affleck was around 25 when they filmed Phantoms, and could only project weary stoicism using PowerPoint.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 4:51 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Bryan Singer's Superman Returns has some problems, for sure, but it just cares so much more about the character, and there are some really beautiful moments in it. When I was a kid, I wondered what would happen if a bullet hit Superman in the eye, and holy crap it happened in that movie! Someone else wondered the same thing and put it in a movie! And when Superman is floating out in the atmosphere listening for people in trouble, I love that. That's stuff Superman would actually do, not destroy a tractor trailer because some redneck sassed him in a bar, wtf.

Superman Returns is, Routh's performance aside, not a very good movie. Nevertheless, that scene where he saves the crashing plane is just so fucking good and I get a bit misty every time I see it. I feel like that got the tone and nature of the character perfectly.
posted by brundlefly at 4:53 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm looking forward to the inevitable 30min Kevin Smith spoken word anecdote / review / whatever. Esp if he's high as all fuck when he does it.

By 'looking forward' I mean 'utterly dreading' ... and 'if' I mean 'of course he fucking will be'
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:54 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


Now I'm imagining Darkseid saying his name like a rapper saying "West siiiiiide!"
posted by brundlefly at 4:55 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


Now I'm imagining Darkseid saying his name like a rapper saying "West siiiiiide!"

I have literally always imagined him saying it like that.
posted by yasaman at 4:58 PM on March 23, 2016 [16 favorites]


Hey! What's all this Man of Steel hate? If you stop watching after the destruction of Krypton, it was the best sci-fi short film in 2013!
posted by eclectist at 5:03 PM on March 23, 2016 [7 favorites]


Kissing Darkseid is a different movie
posted by The Whelk at 7:44 PM on March 23 [1 favorite +] [!]


Deadpool 3: Darksexy?
posted by Fizz at 5:05 PM on March 23, 2016


If you're on the fence, remember that Zach Snyder is fundamentally incapable of creating an even halfway-decent movie.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:08 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Dawn of the Dead remake was pretty okay. Of course, he learned nothing from it.
posted by delfin at 5:11 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


the ever-amazing @xmaslemmings had my favorite interview ever with Zach Snyder
posted by Greg Nog at 5:11 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


My husband says that the Man of Steel is what you get when Clark Kent was raised in Brownback's Kansas. That makes more sense than anything I've read or imagined on my own.

I just told him that, apparently, Batman kills people with guns in BvS, and I saw something die in his eyes. Now i hate Zack Snyder even more, if that was even possible.
posted by malthusan at 5:13 PM on March 23, 2016 [25 favorites]


They are superheroes. They save lives. Full stop. The point of superheroes is not indiscriminate extrajudicial killings. We have real life and drones for that. I mean, I know no superhero franchise holds up to close moral scrutiny, but make a fucking effort.

I hear ya, but ultimately superheroes are just myths, archetypes and stories. Though they've been defined by a single medium for most of the past decades, I think that'll be rapidly changing with immediacy of tv and movies, for both good and ill. Things change and all that, you know?

So the idea that these particular superheroes don't kill will probably soften, if not outright shift.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:15 PM on March 23, 2016


So, I have no interest in this movie, because I'm just bored to fuck with grimdark superheroes. But I love, love, love Adam West Batman, and the mancub grew up with that version. It just so happened that I was doing a thing at a comic convention where Adam West was appearing. I had mancub with me, while we were setting up, before doors were open to the public. I'd guess he was about 5, and he was just wandering around amazed at all the stuff the studios and publishers were setting up, and then he saw the sign for Adam West, and was just over the moon, but when Adam came by the table, mancub's didn't recognise him, what with it being 40 years after the show was filmed. Until Adam spoke, and it was Batman's voice. Damned if my kid didn't get so excited he cried, and Adam West knelt down, and started talking to him about plots and villains from the show until mancub was doing that excited thing kids do where they're trying to talk, but language is just so overwhelmingly, so they just say "yeah, and, and, and...". It was adorable, and I'll never forget that moment of kindness.

Just saying, there is one true Batman, and Ben Affleck ain't it.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:19 PM on March 23, 2016 [112 favorites]


Though they've been defined by a single medium for most of the past decades, I think that'll be rapidly changing with immediacy of tv and movies, for both good and ill. Things change and all that, you know?

So the idea that these particular superheroes don't kill will probably soften, if not outright shift.


Which probably reflects something about the particular cultural moment that we find ourselves in. I cannot wait to see what Ryan Coogler and Ta-Nehisi Coates do with Black Panther, both in film and in the comic books!?!
posted by Fizz at 5:19 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


Also, I'm hoping that the upcoming Black Panther film will tackle some tough subjects: racism, bigotry, the BLM movement, gun culture, civil rights, etc.
posted by Fizz at 5:22 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I mean, I really want to see this for the appearances of everyone who isn't Batman/Superman/Lex Luthor, but if I didn't pay money for Man of Steel (I watched it on cable when I visited my folks a couple of years ago), I'm not going to start now, no sir.
posted by Kitteh at 5:24 PM on March 23, 2016


Also, I'm hoping that the upcoming Black Panther film will tackle some tough subjects: racism, bigotry, the BLM movement, gun culture, civil rights, etc.

I'm looking forward to the Luke Cage Netflix show for much the same reason.
posted by brundlefly at 5:26 PM on March 23, 2016 [14 favorites]


Really, they're going with the rain of pearls again? I'm so, so sick of that image. Not only is it repetitive but it's also wrong. A good strand of pearls has knots tied between each bead. The purpose of that is to a) keep the pearls from rubbing together and wearing off the nacre and b) to ensure the entire necklace doesn't come apart if the silk thread is broken. So even if Joe Chill (or not depending on what's said about this version) yanked Martha's pearls off her neck there should only be a couple--or a most a small handful--that spill onto the ground.

Yes, I know I'm nitpicking a movie I haven't seen yet (and very likely won't see), and I try not to do that, but everything about this movie screams bad and wrong to me. So it doesn't surprise me that this tiny little detail is wrong too. As I've said before, I'm exactly the audience for a World's Finest big screen extravaganza. I'm not, however the audience for this terrible sounding production.
posted by sardonyx at 5:30 PM on March 23, 2016 [11 favorites]




Glad to hear that this movie makes Neal Adam's Batman: Odyssey look logical, restrained, and with a good grasp of its characters.

That Comics Alliance piece is probably my favourite bit of comic book reportage ever. I read it through whenever I see it.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:54 PM on March 23, 2016


Darn, I was hoping against hope that this would be good. I kind of half liked Man of Steel even though the best parts mostly made me think about how much better the first two Chris Reeves films were in comparison. I guess that I'll just watch more episodes of DareDevil and wait for Luke Cage and the next Jessica Jones season.
posted by octothorpe at 5:59 PM on March 23, 2016


Honestly, the reviews haven't all been terrible...

Here are a few that thought well of it.

ComicBookMovie Review
ComiConverse Review
LevelSave Review

Admittedly, those are sites that cater to natural fans of the genre, but maybe that's who the film's natural audience is.

I'm reserving judgement.
posted by ComicsSleepRepeat at 6:47 PM on March 23, 2016


In the past week, I watched a lot of Justice League cartoons on Netflix. There was a Justice League where Diana was a sadistic murderer as a warrior, and a sadistic genocidal murderer as a ruler, and Batman drank whiskey, ran a casino, and shot people. A lot of people.

This was the good one. The others were worse.

Especially the one where everyone cursed at random, including Superman. No F-bombs, but every other kind of bad-word bomb was dropped. Superman said "hell". Twice. Also everyone was murdering Parademons like it weren't no thing, a being that exhibits intelligence and self awareness, and let's just squash them like roaches.

With this recent DC pedigree, I will wait for this live-action early summer Blockbuster to hit Amazon on-demand before watching.

When it flops, I bet they blame both Affleck and Wonder Woman. No. Your movie deserved neither. It failed despite them.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:47 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


The best part of Man of Steel was both of Superman's dads being Robin Hood.*

I was on the fence about this one. If I recall rightly, the 1994 romantic comedy/drama Speechless has a couple of scenes between a political speechwriter played by Michael Keaton and his rival, a war reporter played by Christopher Reeve. Maybe I will see if I can go find that again.


*Watching The Untouchables this week in on Netflix I had the same moment of delight as two Robins Hood are the co-leads.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:48 PM on March 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wow, that RT score is dipping alarmingly, I wonder if it will go below 30%? That's pretty much the realm of total garbage.

Metacritic, which aggregates differently, seems to have settled at a more forgiving 44%.
posted by Artw at 6:49 PM on March 23, 2016


The Dawn of the Dead remake was pretty okay. Of course, he learned nothing from it.

At least 2/3rds of the pretty-okayness of DotD2K4 was down to the James Gunn screenplay.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:20 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


Dawn of the Dead seems OK until you compare it to Romero's. The original was a sly parable about our consumer society disguised as a zombie movie and Snyder's was just a zombie movie.
posted by octothorpe at 7:29 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Zombies would be scarier if they moved faster" does seem like very Snyder logic though, even it was just ripping off 28 Days Later.
posted by Artw at 7:41 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


So do all who live to see such films. But run times are not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the run times that are given us.

They're the run times we deserve, not the ones we need right now.
posted by A dead Quaker at 7:45 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


Batman drank whiskey, ran a casino, and shot people.

But isn't that one Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox, in which the Flash time travels, saves his mom's life, and inadvertently creates a bizarro-world in which Bruce Wayne dies and a bereaved Thomas Wayne becomes a drunken, gun-toting version of Batman? I mean, that world is supposed to be over-the-top bad, right?
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 7:56 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


Snyder's films would all run about 90 minutes if half of the scenes weren't in slow motion.
posted by octothorpe at 7:56 PM on March 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


I hope they do a Marvel Zombies movie, that would be rad. Or Old Man Logan.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:57 PM on March 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was really excited for this film. Now I think I'll wait a bit.
posted by humanfont at 8:07 PM on March 23, 2016


Supposedly the third Wolverine solo movie is going to be Old Man Logan.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:44 PM on March 23, 2016


I'm not sure how they could do Old Man Logan since Fox doesn't have the rights to almost every character in that story except Wolverine.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:16 PM on March 23, 2016


so has it ever been explained why the title of the movie uses the abbreviation for "versus" that is exclusively reserved for lawsuits in US English
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:26 PM on March 23, 2016


Hollywood will never make a good Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman movie (Dark Knight is a good movie, but it's not a Batman movie) because every idiot in Hollywood has a terrible idea for what would make a "cool" Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman movie. The only reason the Avengers stuff was allowed to be good is nobody but nerds cared about Iron Man/Captain America/Thor (or, later, Guardians of the Galaxy/Ant-Man).
posted by straight at 9:50 PM on March 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


so has it ever been explained why the title of the movie uses the abbreviation for "versus" that is exclusively reserved for lawsuits in US English

A legal thriller where Batman sues Superman is already shaping up to be a better movie than this in my head
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:50 PM on March 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


A legal thriller where Batman sues Superman is already shaping up to be a better movie than this in my head

Wayne Enterprises v Superman, for infringing use of the term "Superhero"(® Wayne Enterprises)

"Nobody escapes the Process Servers!"
posted by happyroach at 12:02 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Considering that Superman destroyed a WayneTech satellite, I'd say WE has a good case. And since the Man of Steel is a stone-cold murderer, he'd have no problem stealing enough cash to pay the punitive and remunerative damages. Everybody wins.

Well, everyone except the kid who watched Superman snap Zod's neck. He's gonna need some therapy.
posted by malthusan at 12:46 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]


so has it ever been explained why the title of the movie uses the abbreviation for "versus" that is exclusively reserved for lawsuits in US English

And in the UK "v" isn't called "versus" when spoken aloud, but "and". So the title is actually Batman and Superman.
posted by orrnyereg at 12:50 AM on March 24, 2016


The UK version is only spoken as 'and' in legal cases, in other cases, ie sporting fixtures (including fights) it is spoken as versus.
posted by biffa at 1:05 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


The UK version is only spoken as 'and' in legal cases, in other cases, ie sporting fixtures (including fights) it is spoken as versus.

Not that anyone cares, but IMNSHO, this is a sporting match if anything.
posted by mikelieman at 1:07 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wonder if Chris Sims will bother trying to get Ben Affleck to say "I am Batman and you are my best friend." Sounds like it might not be worth the effort.
posted by ckape at 1:09 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Dawn of the Dead seems OK until you compare it to Romero's. The original was a sly parable about our consumer society disguised as a zombie movie and Snyder's was just a zombie movie.

It can never be Romero's film, but we got a pretty damn good straight up genre film out of it. It's really well made and has a great tone and good performances. If it had a different title I think it would have gotten a lot more slack. Also, as Strange Interlude mentioned, a whole hell of a lot of what makes that work is Gunn's writing.

Snyder is a filmmaker I keep wanting to like who keeps coming up wanting. It's pretty obvious that he's a great visual stylist with a unique touch who knows doodly shit about storytelling.
posted by brundlefly at 2:05 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


My favourite thing about this fallout is the FB page for The Disaster Artist gleefully posting about how "Batman vs Superman is considered to be as good as The Room"!

You're tearing me apart, Kal-El!
posted by fight or flight at 2:45 AM on March 24, 2016 [7 favorites]


There's a large number of fake nine and ten star reviews popping up on IMDB from new accounts. Best hype that money can buy.
posted by Catblack at 3:51 AM on March 24, 2016


A legal thriller where Batman sues Superman is already shaping up to be a better movie than this in my head

Wayne Enterprises v Superman, for infringing use of the term "Superhero"(® Wayne Enterprises)



I would watch this.



Wait...I might do this.
posted by Alexander J. Luthor at 4:25 AM on March 24, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ah the joy of IMDB fake / fanboy nonsense ratings / reviews... running at 8.1 at the moment with nearly 60% '10's. But drill down a bit and the score for the top 1000 voters averages out to a mighty 4.4
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:26 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah the joy of IMDB fake / fanboy nonsense ratings / reviews... running at 8.1 at the moment with nearly 60% '10's. But drill down a bit and the score for the top 1000 voters averages out to a mighty 4.4
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:26 AM on March 24 [+] [!]


At last victory is mine - eponysterical!
posted by Slothrop at 6:22 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]




BvS: Kitten Edition
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:32 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Those poor kittens look terribly confused.
posted by Kitteh at 7:40 AM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


They're kittens, they are terribly confused!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:45 AM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]


It can never be Romero's film, but we got a pretty damn good straight up genre film out of it. It's really well made and has a great tone and good performances.

I agree. There's no shame in failing to live up to one of the most iconic zombie films of all time that was made by the master of the genre.

That said, Dawn 2k4 was the only Snyder movie I have any fond memories toward. 300 delivered some decent visual spectacle, and Watchmen was at least a thoroughly workmanlike adaptation of the source material that made some reasonable-enough concessions to modern sensibilities, but I don't actually like either of them.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:11 AM on March 24, 2016


300 did at least inspire this, so perhaps some small glimmer of redemption.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:22 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sangermaine: I'm not sure how they could do Old Man Logan since Fox doesn't have the rights to almost every character in that story except Wolverine.

These are the people who took a story about Kitty Pryde and swapped her out for Wolverine. They'll find a way.
posted by baf at 8:39 AM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


It can never be Romero's film, but we got a pretty damn good straight up genre film out of it. It's really well made and has a great tone and good performances.

Maybe I should give it another chance but I do wish that they'd given it another name. I do hope that they sent Romero a big fat check for the rights.
posted by octothorpe at 8:46 AM on March 24, 2016


Our First Look at the Amazon Warriors of Wonder Woman. Clearly just an early visualization, as the photo has daylight and color.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:25 AM on March 24, 2016


What are the odds Snyder gets kicked to the curb? Presales indicate this is still going to make back its budget+, but the reviews don't bode well for the building of a cinematic universe, and production rumors are pretty ugly.
posted by codacorolla at 9:29 AM on March 24, 2016


I wonder if Ben Affleck would be interested in taking over from Zach Snyder.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:46 AM on March 24, 2016


Someone spill the beans on the production rumors, I've heard vague rumblings here and there and that's it.
posted by yasaman at 9:47 AM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Clearly just an early visualization, as the photo has daylight and color.

I mean, it's mostly just gold-and-teal replacing the orange-and-teal, but I'll take it.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:12 AM on March 24, 2016


This is a weak argument, and yet somebody always, always makes it whenever an action-oriented movie is judged to be bad. To be very clear: nobody expects this move to be a Bergman film. We're all aware of the genre that this movie is a part of. It's not being dismissed for being a superhero blockbuster. It's being dismissed for being a confusing, humorless, slog of a superhero blockbuster.

He was referring to The Man of Steel, not the sequel.
posted by echocollate at 10:21 AM on March 24, 2016


He was referring to The Man of Steel, not the sequel.

Kinda still applies tbh
posted by Twain Device at 10:30 AM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]




Our First Look at the Amazon Warriors of Wonder Woman. Clearly just an early visualization, as the photo has daylight and color.

It's okay, but you'd think they would have Photoshopped it a little before releasing it.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:40 AM on March 24, 2016


> Our First Look at the Amazon Warriors of Wonder Woman. Clearly just an early visualization, as the photo has daylight and color.

"But it looks pretty good... although some fans might be annoyed to see high heels amongst the Amazonian’s warrior gear."


Oh FFS.
posted by homunculus at 10:52 AM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


Someone spill the beans on the production rumors, I've heard vague rumblings here and there and that's it.

Okay this is all shadowy grapevine rumor but it does fit with a movie that is borderline incoherent.

Constant reshoots, scripts being rewritten in the fly, Sydner refusing to take any input and going full bug-eyed aggro to the point that apparently Afleck was directing himself and running an unofficial second unit as crew closed ranks around him, Cavil scenes being trimmed and cut to the point him barely speaking cause he couldn't be counted on do his job reliably (there's another competing rumor that the set was super super frat house and in constant party mode which hit Cavil HARD) basically everything that could be accomplished via CGI was which lead to huge sprawling post production costs and I think some competing cuts from the directors, the reducer, and Affleck himself? And the higher ups throwing thier hands in the air.

Also like, the impossible demands put on the movie? Reintroduce Batman, follow up man of steel and set up another series?
posted by The Whelk at 10:57 AM on March 24, 2016 [26 favorites]


Kinda still applies tbh

I enjoyed The Man of Steel for the reasons he cited. I like grimdark. I like explosions. I don't mind a little heresy to canon. I don't necessarily need all the parts to make sense. I also don't need my fiction to validate my moral framework. I just need to be entertained from time to time, and sometimes the dumber the film the better.

So no, it's not a "weak argument," it's a matter of taste.

The only thing curbing my enthusiasm for this movie is word that it's a 2+ hour advertisement for future movies.
posted by echocollate at 10:58 AM on March 24, 2016


What are the odds Snyder gets kicked to the curb? Presales indicate this is still going to make back its budget+, but the reviews don't bode well for the building of a cinematic universe, and production rumors are pretty ugly.

Man of Steel made 668M globally and 291M in the US. So BvS has to beat that, at least. Which it might. It should.

The film is advertised as this grand fight between B and S. But according to plot summaries I've read from reviewers who've seen the film, folks may be disappointed on that point, for several reasons. If word of mouth spreads after opening weekend about the big fight not adding up to much, that could be a problem.

The film is tracking to open at 150M in the US and 350-390M globally. Less than that or barely reaching those points indicate a problem.

If studio wants to boot Snyder, then they'll probably turn to Oscar winning director Ben Affleck, who I think also has a role in the film.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:07 AM on March 24, 2016


Sydner refusing to take any input and going full bug-eyed aggro to the point that apparently Afleck was directing himself and running an unofficial second unit as crew closed ranks around him, Cavil scenes being trimmed and cut to the point him barely speaking cause he couldn't be counted on do his job reliably (there's another competing rumor that the set was super super frat house and in constant party mode which hit Cavil HARD)

1. YASSSSSSSSSSS

2. This is like a weird morality play where Affleck is forced to pay for his life of heedless pleasure-seeking through a very strange form of Crossfit/workplace penance. I'm picturing him making sure craft services is getting paid and making hasty wardrobe adjustments with a pincushion at his side and a needle between his teeth, all while listening to the AD's secret whispered plans for transporting the lighting rig to the next day's shoot
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:09 AM on March 24, 2016 [15 favorites]


ok, the movie I really really want to see is the dramatization of the making of Batman v Superman.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:23 AM on March 24, 2016 [9 favorites]


Where's Terry Gilliam?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:25 AM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


So no, it's not a "weak argument," it's a matter of taste.

The argument I was referring to is the notion that movies belonging to a certain genre should be exempt from aesthetic judgment, which is fairly explicitly made by the comment I replied to. I'd never presume to argue with a person's taste, but the idea that any movie featuring an explosion cannot be held to any kind of standard is idiotic. I mean, you're a fan of explosions. So you tell me: can you discern any difference in quality between, say, "Mad Max: Fury Road", and "Terminator Genisys"? If so, let's throw away the idea that "fun" movies are exempt from criticism. If not...take my word for it, we're not even talking about the same subject.
posted by Ipsifendus at 11:28 AM on March 24, 2016 [8 favorites]


ok, the movie I really really want to see is the dramatization of the making of Batman v Superman.

Hearts of Dorkness
posted by codacorolla at 11:55 AM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]


Movies Should Be Good
posted by brundlefly at 12:04 PM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


Snyder, being Snyder, made the same mistakes with the movie that writers after Moore made when trying to ape Watchmen: they missed all the nuance, intelligence, and complexity of Watchmen that made it resonate with so many people in favor of focusing on the surface elements like hardcore, violent action and how bad-ass Rorschach is.

Which was lampshaded years earlier by Denny O'Neil in an issue of The Question, which is the character Rorschach was based on and who had been rewritten by O'Neil as a more philosophical vigilante.

Vic Sage, The Question's alter ego, is about to catch a plane somewhere and grabs a copy of Watchmen at an airport kiosk (which mean that Watchmen exists in the DC universe, but I digress). Later, outside a room full of bad guys and in his Question guise, Sage asks himself what Rorschach would do in this situation. "He'd kick ass" being the answer, the Question busts in. Of course, since the Question has no superpowers -- just his intellect and well-honed martial arts skills -- this frontal assault results in the Question getting his hat handed to him.

One of the bad guys decided to execute the interloper, and pointing a gun at Sage's head, asks if he has any last words. His reply: "Rorschach sucks."

(Fortunately, The Question's bacon is saved by, if memory serves me correctly, Green Arrow, who was tailing the same bunch of bad guys.)
posted by Gelatin at 12:13 PM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]


In a huge contrast to Warner, in Marvel productions, actors who behave like prima donnas, like Edward Norton, tend to not get invited back for sequels, and directors who get input they don't want, like Edward Wright, get fired.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 12:27 PM on March 24, 2016


Last month Forbes ran a long analysis of the costs and likely earnings of the movie, estimated conservatively, which explained that international presales, merchandising, the spreading of risk to investors, etc, all make it clear there's really no way this movie can fail to earn its keep.

The bottom line is this: Batman v Superman has tax incentives, presales, and tie-ins, as well as lucrative merchandising, that all help offset costs for Warner, and the studio is expert at reducing their risks and exposure on huge investments like this. Whatever else we can say about the future health of the DC cinematic universe — which we’ll address shortly, be patient – from a financial point of view, nobody needs to think Batman v Superman has to top $800 million to $1 billion in order for Warner to really avoid failure and make a couple of dimes on the project.

This doesn’t remotely mean Warner doesn’t care how the film performs at the box office, nor does it mean they won’t be upset and worried if it should perform at the lowest possible levels. It just means there’s a lot more nuance, positioning, and other details involved on the business end which matter, and which make this harder to pigeonhole into “it has to make X amount or the studio is in trouble/the film’s a flop/someone’s getting fired.”

posted by mediareport at 12:30 PM on March 24, 2016


The only Batman v. Superman worth watching is World's Finest, 3 episodes of Superman: The Animated Series, with a cross-over from Batman: The Animated series, which was released as a movie after it aired. It has all the best things: Kevin Conroy, Mark Hamill, Tim Daly, and Clancy Brown. It also had a great story, humor, love quadrangles (pentagons?), and punching.

We have to wait until 2017 until the LEGO Batman movie, so World' Finest will have to do.
posted by ceejaytee at 12:46 PM on March 24, 2016 [6 favorites]


Meanwhile, in another part of the Internet, the film's press junkets are full sway, with Snyder, Cavil, Affleck, Adams, Gadot in the hot seats.

Zack Snyder gets philosophical: “It is what it is.”

Amy Adams employs the Kevin Smith It's Not Made for Critics Defense: “I know that Zack doesn't make the movies, and none of us are making the movies for the critics.”*

Gail Gadot gamely stays on script, channeling Donald Trump at one point: "It's huge!"

Jesse Eisenberg pleads ignorance: "I don't even watch the movies I'm in."

* c.f. Henry Cavil's refreshingly candid insight into his motivations for taking on the iconic role in a recent interview in Man of the World: "I’m slightly wary of saying this, because it can be frowned upon, certainly by members of my community and people outside my community, but I’m not just doing this for the art. The money’s fantastic and that’s something which I deem — and again, it is frowned upon — very important."
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:50 PM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Amy Adams employs the Kevin Smith It's Not Made for Critics Defense

UGH. I hate that shit. Not only does it devalue the role of critics in the film industry, it condescends to audiences.
posted by brundlefly at 1:08 PM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]




ok, the movie I really really want to see is the dramatization of the making of Batman v Superman

Was it the movie or the making of Batman v Superman
Where someone learned to love again?

which mean that Watchmen exists in the DC universe, but I digress

Grant Morrison also exists in the DC universe, surprising nobody who knows anything about Grant Morrison.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:39 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


No he doesn't, John Ostrander killed him off in Suicide Squad #58.
posted by Artw at 2:44 PM on March 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


More surprising: He got eaten by a werewolf (or possibly a werebear?) and died in his second appearance.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:45 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


DAMMIT WYATT
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:45 PM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Writers block, hell of a way to go.
posted by Artw at 2:47 PM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can we get David Goyer as a character in Suicide Squad II?
posted by Artw at 2:51 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


No reason...
posted by Artw at 2:54 PM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


I always thought the way to do this kind of movie would be like this - in the DC movie universe have Superman arrive in Kansas in the 50's. The first movie would be like a 50's film version of a bunch of the Superman family comics. Camp, charming, sweet, fun.

Then for the next film bring it to contemporary times. Through montage have Superman withdraw from the world in his Fortress, disenchanted by what happens to the world after the 50's & 60's. Have him largely forgotten, a legend. He still keeps his eye on things though and notices this vigilante, Batman. Batman is angry, violent, and arrogant. He kills and punishes indiscriminately. Superman decides he’s got to say something. He confronts Bats but Bats tells him to take a hike. Later Supes interrupts Bats as he doling out a beat down on a vile & violent criminal. That’s it for Bats – he unleashes his full arsenal on Superman endangering civilians. Supes rescues the civilians and Bats escapes & heads to the cave and builds a suit to take on Supes. They fight. Superman beats Batman easily. Superman reaches out to a broken Batman. They talk and share experiences. How do they come to terms? Superman realises he's got to engage with the world, that humans despite their flaws are worth fighting for, with great power comes great responsibility. Batman realises that despite the flaws & corruption in the laws of men that they are worth fighting for and working within. So they join together – call the movie World’s Finest and there you go.

The next movie has Bats & Supes looking for heroes from around the world to create a diverse Justice League and base it loosely on the early issues of Grant Morrison’s JLA. Next movie? Have them go looking for Supes’ old friends the Justice Society lost on an alternate earth about to be destroyed by a transdimensional Darkseid. Two of the spin off movies will be about Kamandi and Adam Strange respectively. Hollywood if interested give me a call, I’m cheaper than those guys above.

In anycase, I'm probably not going to watch this Dawn of Justice though I am intrigued by the little I’ve read about the upcoming Wonder Woman movie and I like the Aquaman casting. If the Aquaman movie is an undersea swashbuckler I'm there.
posted by Ashwagandha at 5:18 PM on March 24, 2016 [5 favorites]


Clearly the next crossover should be Batman vs. Superman vs. Zatanna.

BATMAN: I am the night. *menacing pose*
SUPERMAN: I must stop you. *menacing pose*
ZATANNA: htoB fo uoy, ezeerf! ...worG etsat sdub ni htob ruoy selohssa. ...ezeerfnU.

*reaction shot*

CREDITS
posted by delfin at 6:20 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here's the plot, via Wikipedia. Seems oddly short for a long movie.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 PM on March 24, 2016


I am hype for Will Arnette batman. HYPE!

Also for the Ben Affleck directed Batman reboot! New York? You're no longer Gotham.

The amalgamation of Bridgeport, Hartford, Providence, Fall River, New Bedford, Newport, Lawrence, Lynn, Lowell, Cambridge, Manchester, Nashua, Mattapan and South Boston is now Gotham, only widdout da green bits innabatween da grey bits. R's will be dropped. Enormous crimes will be unearthed with meticulous detective work. Dive bars will be raided. Local cuisine will be argued about like the very foundation of knowledge itself. Opinions on fried clams and squid and soups made from same will... be... tense.

RIDDLER: "Riddle me this: When is a chowder not a chowder?"
CLAMSHACK PATRON 1: WHEN IT'S MANHATTAN STYLE?
CLAMSHACK PATRON 2: NO! WHEN IT'S CLEAR STYLE!
CLAMSHACK PATRON 3: CREAM AND CLAMS HAVE NO PLACE TOGETHER!
CLAMSHACK PATRON 4: GETTIM!
RIDDLER, INTO HIS "APPLE WATCH" I MEAN "TWO WAY WRIST RADIO": R TO J - RIOT IS HAPPENING RIGHT ON SCHEDULE, AS PROMISED... Why am I whispering into my watch in all caps? Riddle me that!
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:20 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't really get the MeFi consensus that Batman is supposed to be a goofy character and the grimdarking is doing him wrong. Batman has been a dark broody character for over three decades now. He's been grimdark for longer than many MeFites have been alive. If you don't like grimdark, that's fine. If you like grimdark but don't like Batman, that's fine. If you like grimdark and Batman but don't like the Batman movies, that's fine too. But it's kinda silly to complain about a Batman movie for being dark. That's like complaining that chocolate is sweet or chili is spicy. (Yes, yes, pedants, now is the time to start talking about mole sauce or the like. If you think the analogy is bad, mentally substitute it with another analogy which you find acceptable for "thing A with intrinsic quality A")

Superman, though, is a totally different story. Superman isn't grimdark, and attempts to make him grimdark in comics have never been welcomed by the general public or comic readers. And that's one of the first (of many) stumbling blocks to this movie. The reason that Batman versus Superman took off so much in comic book history is because the two characters are so different, and the moods are so different. It's like the Punisher versus Archie. But Snyder went and made grimdark Superman. That's like making sugary chili.

So this movie, instead of promising some sort of unprecedented and intriguing contrast, is just "Grimdark Guy #1 versus Grimdark Guy #2". That hobbles it before the movie even starts.
posted by Bugbread at 7:22 PM on March 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Grimdark Guy #1 versus Grimdark Guy #2". That hobbles it before the movie even starts.

Exactly. There's conflict built right into the core of the characters so why change them? You have a morose, white, privileged, rich orphan boy vs an optimistic, white, adopted immigrant rural poor boy - it writes itself.
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:41 PM on March 24, 2016 [2 favorites]


From my buddy who reports he booed the movie at the end: “The real villain here is Zack Snyder. He's a real life lex luthor and hates superman, so he's spent his life and a sizable fortune to destroy him.”
posted by ob1quixote at 8:51 PM on March 24, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is the first time in nearly 41 years of living that I don't want to watch a Batman or Superman movie. I have a sad. But the Comics Alliance review plus finding out about batguns pretty well demonstrated that Snyder made exactly the "I swear I'm not gay, dad" movie I thought he'd make. Which sucks. I wanted to see Affleck crush it.

If DC didn't own Batman and Superman they'd be a bankrupt also-ran right now. They've spun out so many dogshit products lately that somebody needs to go find and destroy whatever cursed monkey's paw is in the basement of their office building. Let's assume it's merged with Goyer's flesh just to be safe.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:54 PM on March 24, 2016


Snyder's Trilogy is shaping up to be the Star Wars Prequels of DC movies.
posted by straight at 1:48 AM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


don't really get the MeFi consensus that Batman is supposed to be a goofy character and the grimdarking is doing him wrong.

I see no such consensus. We're mostly rolling our eyes at Grimdark Superman. But also Snyder's writing/storytelling sucks, while the writing for LEGO Batman was great. So LEGO Batman >>> Snyder Batman, but not just because Snyder Batman is darker.
posted by straight at 1:53 AM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


straight: "I see no such consensus. We're mostly rolling our eyes at Grimdark Superman."

You're right, this thread is mainly focused on Superman. I may be thinking more of other threads involving Batman / Suicide Squad / DC properties.

straight: " But also Snyder's writing/storytelling sucks, while the writing for LEGO Batman was great. So LEGO Batman >>> Snyder Batman, but not just because Snyder Batman is darker."

Yeah, no disagreement there. Like I said, there's nothing strange about disliking dark movies, and there's nothing strange about liking Batman but disliking the Batman movies. The only thing I found was strange was liking Batman but disliking Batman movies because they're dark.

(While I enjoyed the Nolan movies, nothing about them really stayed with me after watching them, while I still chuckle when I remember "Darkness. no parents. Super rich. Kinda makes it better" so I'm there with you on LEGO Batman >>> Snyder Batman, and maybe even LEGO Batman > Nolan Batman)
posted by Bugbread at 3:48 AM on March 25, 2016


Also, excellent (and prescient) comment on the Lego Movie Batman Song Two Hours video:

"2 hours of this song? This may as well be the Batman VS Superman movie."
posted by Bugbread at 3:49 AM on March 25, 2016


The Nolan Batman movies definitely aren't too dark, and I don't think I've heard that anywhere either. What they are is entirely too self-serious, and they pretend to a level of... mythicness and sophistication that they don't actually achieve. (The Joker's Prisoner's Dilemma with the boats, all the Occupy imagery in DKR that never amounts to anything.)

Some people might prefer other versions of Batman that are less dark (Brave and the Bold is the greatest Batman show of ALL TIME), but that doesn't mean there's a consensus that the Nolan movies are too dark and that '66 Batman is the only true Batman.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:10 AM on March 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


So this movie, instead of promising some sort of unprecedented and intriguing contrast, is just "Grimdark Guy #1 versus Grimdark Guy #2". That hobbles it before the movie even starts.

Since I first heard about this movie I've been hoping against hope that they'd pit grim and gritty MoS Superman against a totally campy, 1960s TV show version of Batman.
posted by brundlefly at 5:38 AM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


The only thing I found was strange was liking Batman but disliking Batman movies because they're dark.

There's nothing strange about it if one watched the animated series from the 90s. The movies pale in comparison.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 AM on March 25, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is your regularly scheduled Tomatometer reading.

The movie currently stands at 30%, or just 27% if considering the Top Critics. The previous assessment ("Not as bad as Bush v. Gore, but close") may be subject to revision if we breach the Crazification factor.

This has been your regularly scheduled Tomatometer reading.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:51 AM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't dislike Batman being dark, I dislike it when dark is boring and omnipresent.
posted by Artw at 8:56 AM on March 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


>I don't dislike Batman being dark, I dislike it when dark is boring and omnipresent.

Yes, this, exactly.
Batman Begins - great! I enjoyed it.
The Dark Knight - sure, okay, a solid movie.
The Dark Knight Rises - about two thirds of the way through, I was just ... bored.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:09 AM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I feel like I regularly whine about the deluge of grimdark and how much I hate it, but I will clarify that I don't demand Batman be light and fun either. My first exposure to Batman as a child was with Batman: The Animated Series, which while being a kid's cartoon was still thoroughly noir. In fact, I'm pretty sure about 80% of my current affection for noir as a genre can be traced back to B:TAS.

So I want Batman to be noir, it's the genre he thrives in. But jeeze, even noir doesn't have to be as serious and joyless as the Nolan movies became. And whatever Snyder's doing, it's not noir.
posted by yasaman at 9:15 AM on March 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


Curb your benthusiasm
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:19 AM on March 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


The other thing is that it isn't just about being "dark". I love "dark". But Snyder seems to associate turning out the lights ("I literally can't see anything in this movie") and endless nihilism ("so the point is, there is no point, and everything is terrible") with depth, and boy is he out of his.

Also, and this is essential to me-- he is supposed to be setting up the Justice League. Part of the joy of the league is that Batman doesn’t get to drag the rest of the league down to his gloomy level. He funds it, he’s kind of in charge, but he spends a lot of his time rolling his eyes while Flash makes silly jokes, he spends a lot of time predicting absolute disaster while Diana is like “we will triumph, TOGETHER”, he spends a lot of time running apocalypse scenarios while Green Lantern makes ring art, he spends a lot of time huddled over computers while the rest of the League plans him a secret birthday party. The point of the League is that no one superhero’s perspective is necessarily the right or best one, even Batman’s, and Batman agrees. His perspective is usually right in Gotham. But part of the reason he signs up for the League is because he begins to see that his perspective is not always right in all situations.

So when you decide to build your Justice League framework on “everything is the worst, just ask Batman”, and all your heroes are grim nightmare versions of their old selves— you’ve already killed the League. You can treat the setup with seriousness without undermining everything it represents— but Snyder can’t. He can’t envision a DC universe where moments of joy and innocence coexist with ongoing systemic evil. He wants to Batman-ize the League, but doing so destroys everything the League is supposed to be. And that is why his movies are the worst.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:20 AM on March 25, 2016 [17 favorites]


Also, and this is essential to me-- he is supposed to be setting up the Justice League.

You said it better than I could, but UGH. The Justice League is full of fun silly characters. Dark gritty Aquaman teams up with Batman, dark gritty Superman, and the dark gritty Flash isn't the Justice League, it's nonsense, and that's staying away from how you even come up with a gritty version of the dude with the magic wishing ring.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:26 AM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


In the Marvel movies, Captain America's optimism and hope is tonally off from everyone else's grim darkness. He is a ray of sunshine surrounded by brooding, paranoia, and distrust.

In the Justice League movies, Batman's brooding paranoia and distrust should be tonally off from everyone else's optimism and hope. He should be the dark cloud in an otherwise sunshiny day.
posted by meese at 10:30 AM on March 25, 2016 [8 favorites]


Diana is like “we will triumph, TOGETHER”

Which just makes me wish that more of these big tentpole blockbusters could capture the sense of goofy joy that Pacific Rim had.

"Come on, let's do this! Together!"
posted by tobascodagama at 11:05 AM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


In the Marvel movies, Captain America's optimism and hope is tonally off from everyone else's grim darkness. He is a ray of sunshine surrounded by brooding, paranoia, and distrust.

Superman should be having a similar affect in the DC universe, but that just isn't happening.

Remember in The Winter Solider, when Crossbones is holding a gun to some lowly computer tech jockey's head, ordering him to do a very simple task, but doing it would mean going again Captain America (who isn't even in the room). The Lowly Computer Tech Jockey struggles with what to do and then winds up refusing, knowing he's likely to get his brains splattered all over. Yet he still refuses, not in some staunch heroic manner, but more in a sense of suddenly finding a line he can't cross and live with himself.

That's the sort of impact that seeing Cap be Cap over several movies has. There's absolutely nothing in the portrayal of Superman that comes anywhere close to inspiring others after Man of Steel and presumably BvS. That's what Zack Snyder missed and DC, home of the truly mythical legend level heroes, is a poorer movie universe because of it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on March 25, 2016 [19 favorites]


Credit where credit is due, Goyer is riding the bleak bus too.
posted by Artw at 11:38 AM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Dawn of Justice had a record breaking Thursday, with 27.7M made in the States. That's a bit better than Age of Ultron's 26M Thursday from last year.

*sighs*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:00 PM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wonder if the Easter weekend will have any effect. A lot of people are going to be off in America, yet Sunday might be taken up with family stuff.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:05 PM on March 25, 2016


I don't think anyone doubted that the opening day/weekend would be huge, the question is whether it will be a Transformer-type utterly immune to reviews type hit, or fade faster than expected.
posted by tavella at 12:41 PM on March 25, 2016


I don't think anyone doubted that the opening day/weekend would be huge...

SOME OF US DREAMED.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:42 PM on March 25, 2016 [4 favorites]


When you make a superhero movie you have to come to terms with the fact that superheroes are, by their very nature, absurd. Batman all the more so -- he's a billionaire captain of industry who puts on a hat with bat-ears to fight an evil clown, for God's sake. A "dark" take on the concept can still work, whether you get there by embracing the absurdity (BTAS) or being so good at building that "dark" interpretation that the audience is willing to look past the wackiness (Nolan). Snyder is too self-important for the first and not nearly skilled enough for the second.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:50 PM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rise of the Fallen was 19% and that didn't hurt it any. People just really like that Transformers shit for some reason.
posted by Artw at 12:52 PM on March 25, 2016


Looking at Box Office Mojo, it's Interesting that Man of Steel wasn't the huge hit in the US that I had thought it was. Adjusted for inflation, it's the third most successful and only a little better than Superman Returns which did poorly enough that it stalled the franchise for seven years.
posted by octothorpe at 12:58 PM on March 25, 2016


Rise of the Fallen was 19% and that didn't hurt it any. People just really like that Transformers shit for some reason.

Most people are just looking for some escapist entertainment, so movies don't really have to be good, just do a bare minimum, no matter the genre. Deep conversation about the film, analysis of it and repeated viewings just aren't a thing for many.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:11 PM on March 25, 2016


Right now, the 2005 Fantastic Four is on the TV. It was never going to be in the running for an Oscar, but it's a lot of fun.

Remember fun?
posted by Grangousier at 2:33 PM on March 25, 2016


Most people are just looking for some escapist entertainment, so movies don't really have to be good, just do a bare minimum, no matter the genre. Deep conversation about the film, analysis of it and repeated viewings just aren't a thing for many.

There are many great escapist movies out there in many genres. Meanwhile, the Transformers movies are deeply unpleasant, boring slogs. Even factoring in the "bare minimum" expectations of wider audiences, I am baffled by their continuing appeal.
posted by brundlefly at 3:03 PM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]




We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one, Grangousier. I remember fun, and I remember Tim Story's version of the F4, but I distinctly do not remember the two overlapping in any way.

Sue has to - get this - take off all her clothes on a crowded bridge in order to sneak past the police and reach Ben. Meanwhile, Johnny and Reed have to... do absolutely nothing... to do the exact same thing. Let's humiliate the only strong female role for a cheap laugh without any bearing on the plot!
posted by GhostintheMachine at 3:11 PM on March 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


Remember fun?

[PBO closes his eyes, remembering. FADE TO: Flashback scene. A city. The abandoned warehouse district. The empty shells of dark teal buildings rise up against a burning orange sky. Ash swirls in the air. Offscreen, we hear gunshots. Barking dogs. Screams. Riot police shouting over megaphones. A young PBO rises from the cracked, potholed asphalt, clutching a broken string of pearls in his hand. The scene blurs. FADE TO: Present day.]

PBO: Fun...yeah. I remember fun. [He clenches his fists.] The question is...does fun remember me?
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:14 PM on March 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


Brandon Blatcher: "Most people are just looking for some escapist entertainment, so movies don't really have to be good, just do a bare minimum, no matter the genre. Deep conversation about the film, analysis of it and repeated viewings just aren't a thing for many."

Deep conversation, analysis, and repeated viewings are neither necessary conditions of good movies, nor exclusive to good movies.

Good movies:
Interstellar. When it finished, I discussed it with friends. We analyzed it. I watched it again with my wife.

The new Fast and Furious. When it finished, no discussions with friends, no analysis, no rewatching.

Bad movies:
The new Indiana Jones. When it finished, no discussions with friends, no analysis, no rewatching.

Star Wars: The Phantom Menace. Cannot imagine the number of discussions I've had regarding it. Enjoyed Red Letter Media's analysis of it, which is longer than the movie itself.
...no intentional rewatching, though, I must admit.
posted by Bugbread at 3:18 PM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fun... shit. I'm still having fun. Every half hour I nod off and wake up and think I'll be back in the lobby but the movie still doesn't end.
posted by Artw at 3:19 PM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't really get why the Tomatometer has become the reference metric for ratings. It doesn't indicate how good or bad critics think a movie is, but how much they agree. If all critics agree that a movie is passable, giving it a 6 out of 10, it would get a 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. If all critics think that a movie is a little weak, giving it a 4 out of 10, it would get a 0% on Rotten Tomatoes.

Metacritic has its failings, too, in that if half the critics think a movie stinks, giving it a 0 out of 10, and half think it's wonderful, giving it a 10 out of 10, its Metacritic score will be 50%, which doesn't reflect any of the critics opinions.

But when you're talking about how terrible a movie is, a Metacritic score of 10% tells you a lot more than a Rotten Tomatoes score of 10%.

(Really what is needed is a site that provides averages plus standard deviations. "Blorg: The Movie. StatCritic score: 47±3%" "Keyhole Threepenny. StatCritic score: 48±42%")
posted by Bugbread at 3:39 PM on March 25, 2016 [3 favorites]


I liked it. I like the story. I like how they set up the emotional relationships. I liked Affleck's Batman and I LOVED Lex.
posted by gminks at 5:06 PM on March 25, 2016


Metacritic scores tend to average out a lot more than Roten Tomatoes scores, so while a 10% MC score is going to tell you more than a 10% RT score (i.e. It's utter, utter garbage instead of merely garbage) in practice you're not going to see a 10% MC score nearly as often. This tends to make RT a much more useful tool for determining if you should spend your time on a given movie.
posted by Artw at 5:17 PM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I haven't seen this movie yet or Man of Steel, but I'd like to think that DC Studios movies can be the yin to Disney-Marvel's yang. Hopefully with Deadpool, Fox can be a happy middle ground.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:51 PM on March 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


The fact that Jesse Eisenberg basically just did a Max Landis impression to portray Luthor is one of about one point five good things I've heard about this movie.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:09 PM on March 25, 2016 [2 favorites]


The fact that Jesse Eisenberg basically just did a Max Landis impression

That's beautiful in almost the same way that Sad Ben Affleck's "I agree" is beautiful.
posted by straight at 11:31 PM on March 25, 2016 [6 favorites]


There are several human skulls on a circular desk where Snyder works on his iMac. “I don’t know why,” he says. “I just like skulls.” Six axes lean against the nearby wall. “I just like axes,” he says innocently. “They are cool. I have axes at home that I cut wood with, but these are my special ones.”

Zack Snyder’s Superhero Life
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:10 AM on March 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


@kierongillen I wish Zack Snyder would just cut to the chase and make the Warhammer 40,000 movie he clearly wants to.
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on March 26, 2016 [8 favorites]


From the Bloomberg profile: ‘That’s legit. That’s what happens in real life when you fight a guy and you’re a superhero.’

I, um. Yeah.
posted by octothorpe at 8:50 AM on March 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


That Bloomberg profile is pretty telling, not just in the quotable details but in how they're framing it with pictures of Snyder wearing swank clothes. The writer describes him as having "a leading man’s blue eyes and angled jaw", but to me he looks like nothing more than the Harvard MBA who takes over a successful start-up, gives a big speech on the first day about how he wants to preserve the company's spirit and, within about a month, has fired all of the remaining original employees. Especially in the first picture, he reminds me of Eliot Schwartz, Walter White's original business partner.

As for the success of the movie despite its apparent awfulness, there was something in the Comics Journal at the time of the premiere of the first Tim Burton Batman movie that said that the quality of the movie was at that point almost irrelevant; the movie had been so assiduously and successfully marketed that they could show 90 minutes of blank film leader stock and the film would make back its production costs before word got out. That was before widespread use of the internet, of course, but the same principle still holds; it's spring break in a lot of places in the U.S., and people will go to see something to see if it's as bad as they thought.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:14 AM on March 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Not to mention the rise of ticket pre-sales and midnight premieres that lock in opening-day revenues long before even critics' reviews can get going, never mind word of mouth.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:28 AM on March 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


If the trade off is this or a Trump victory, I'll take this. Let all the stupid out in one go, America, on something harmless.
posted by Artw at 9:32 AM on March 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sad Affleck. sadfleck.
posted by The Whelk at 11:38 AM on March 26, 2016


Sadfleck in bat flick says bad flexing fad sucks.
posted by beerperson at 11:56 AM on March 26, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sitting in the theater waiting to see it and the place is mobbed.
posted by octothorpe at 5:10 PM on March 26, 2016


I wish Zack Snyder would just cut to the chase and make the Warhammer 40,000 movie he clearly wants to.

Totally perfect guy to do a movie about the Ultramarines or whatever other boring, overexposed nook of the 40k verse. I'd personally rather see a Gaunt's Ghosts movie, but only if Snyder is not allowed with in a million light-years of it.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:15 PM on March 26, 2016


Totally perfect guy to do a movie about the Ultramarines or whatever other boring, overexposed nook of the 40k verse.

You... you think any part of WH40K is overexposed? The universe and its lore is vast and compelling, but really. You have to know this guy who's into Catan, and maybe Magic the Gathering, and he's heard about this thing, man. Some of the darker, more dire comic shops and model railroad boutiques that have a separate, curtained-off section...

Furries are more legit these days, and more socially acceptable. Death Murder Metal bands from the Faroe Islands deny categorically they ever have painted an entire army based on Cadian artillery.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:01 PM on March 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd just steer him well clear of Orks, because there's no way he'd get them right.
posted by Artw at 7:35 PM on March 26, 2016 [1 favorite]




Batman v Superman II: If I Could Just Play Devil's Advocate for a Moment
posted by middleclasstool at 8:28 PM on March 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


Wonder Well Actually
posted by Artw at 8:31 PM on March 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anti-Social Justice Warrior League
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:57 AM on March 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Slap*Happy: "You... you think any part of WH40K is overexposed?"

I think it was just poor word choice. "Overdone". The Ultramarines are definitely overdone.

Personally, I'd want a movie focusing on one of the Chaos gods, but not Khorne. A Nurgle movie would be best, but I caould easily enjoy a Slaaneshi or Tzeentch movie.

Buy, yeah, keep Snyder away from the Orks, by whatever means necessary.
posted by Bugbread at 7:05 AM on March 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


They're the ones that let you okn on the whole thing being knowingly ridiculous, and for best effect Snyder must never know that.

Also it'd be an opportunity to go super racist.
posted by Artw at 7:27 AM on March 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


29%! Still going to make a ton of money though.
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on March 27, 2016


$420M worldwide . $10 of that was mine so it's partially my fault that Snyder keeps his job.
posted by octothorpe at 10:56 AM on March 27, 2016


I will blame you for this.
posted by Artw at 11:01 AM on March 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


We only saw the 2D version though, we could have spent $15 each for the 3D Imax. Except that the 3D gives me a headache and the sound on Imax is cranked so high that I worry about my hearing.
posted by octothorpe at 11:04 AM on March 27, 2016


I bet Josh Trank is just kicking himself right now.
posted by Artw at 11:24 AM on March 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


$420M worldwide .

Curious what the drop-off will be in the second week. The linked article says around 62% is the historic trend.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:55 AM on March 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


CinemaScore for this has been B, so it'll be interesting to see if word of mouth will prevent too much of a collapse or not.
posted by Atreides at 12:29 PM on March 27, 2016


Because it's vastly important to know what celebrities think about any and every topic in the world today, Vulture asks various ones, "Who would win in a fight, Batman or Superman?" While it's of pressing urgency to the public to learn the opinion of the likes of actors Tom Hiddleston and Laura Benanti and comics writers Scott Snyder and Mark Waid, Michael Shannon's is too good not to be quoted in its entirety:
I’m so utterly unconcerned with the outcome of that fight. So profoundly, utterly unconcerned. I can’t even come up with a fake answer. I guess I have to root for Superman because he killed me, so I would hope that he would continue his killing spree and become like a serial killer Superman. That’s a new take on Superman. We’d all be in a heap of trouble if Superman was a serial killer. He could just wipe us all out. But then he’d be lonely.

Isn’t he already lonely?

Well, we’re all lonely.
Take that and stick it in your Fortress of Solitude!
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:33 PM on March 27, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh, wow. Can I have a 90 minute TV special where Michael Shannon talks dismissively about Superhero Angst?

"Yes, Mr. Wayne, there's quite a lot of us who have lost one or both parents."

"I think we all have have things we look back on with regret, Mr. Parker."

"Don't worry, this Logan fellow is hardly the first prima donna I've had to work with. I'm sure he's very good at what he does. Just let him run around doing his thing until we're ready to get some work done. "
posted by straight at 8:05 PM on March 27, 2016


There are only two answers to that question. Michael Shannon's and Chris Sims', which is incidentally also the answer to "And finally, who would win in a fight between all four Equestranauts?"

Namely: "Oh, my God. Um... trick question. Because the Equestranauts have a bond of friendship greater than any force in the universe, so they would never have a fight."
posted by tobascodagama at 8:09 PM on March 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


55% drop from Friday to Saturday, which not even the recent Fantastic Four remake managed (only 48%).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:02 PM on March 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, wow. Can I have a 90 minute TV special where Michael Shannon talks dismissively about Superhero Angst?

"Don't worry, this Logan fellow is hardly the first prima donna I've had to work with. I'm sure he's very good at what he does. Just let him run around doing his thing until we're ready to get some work done. "


shutupandtakemymoney.gif
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:41 PM on March 28, 2016


I read that Justice League will draw upon the Seven Samurai by Kurosawa. That's ambition right there!
posted by sapagan at 11:01 PM on March 28, 2016


Wow, adapting the Seven Samurai? That's never been done before. Snyder's a genius.
posted by octothorpe at 4:06 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


BATMAN V. SUPERMAN: SPOILER FAQ OF JUSTICE : io9's Rob Bricken goes to town—Metropolis and/or Gotham—on the film's inanities, inappropriateness, indignities, and insanity. Naturally, this takes a bit of space, but it's worth it to get to his hilarious revelation of what Zack Snyder considers an Easter egg.

Great Caesar's Ghost!
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:24 AM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


I liked how Rob ever-so-cleverly bites RLM's gag with the Price is Right sound cue from the Half in the Bag on BvS.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:26 AM on March 29, 2016


I don't usually read the FAQs from io9, but this was entertaining. Not to mention, the more I hear about the Bat-killing and even worse, the Olsen thing...I don't know when I will bother watching this movie.
posted by Atreides at 11:27 AM on March 29, 2016


This is another one of your regularly scheduled Tomatometer readings.
The movie currently stands at 28%, or just 26% if considering the Top Critics. Feel free to point and laugh at the yuuuge drop-off from Friday to Sunday linked above.
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:05 PM on March 29, 2016


So does Superman drink a jar of piss in this or what?
posted by Artw at 3:44 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


From the interview where Zack Snyder says that since Batman might have killed people in the Nolan movies, that definitely justifies him killing ("a little more like manslaughter than murder") tons of dudes in this one:
Also, it goes back and includes even the Tim Burton Batman movies where this reputation as a guy that doesn’t kill comes from.
Snyder's hilarious belief that the idea that Batman doesn't kill comes from the Tim Burton movies somehow reminds me of this interview he did with Ken Levin (of Bioshock fame) in which he says (around the 21 minute mark):
I don't know that you can make a video game movie, and this might sound crazy, but, unless you...have some experience with...the game. Some connection to the game.
posted by straight at 4:22 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


So does Superman drink a jar of piss in this or what?

No, that would be the audience that drinks the jar of Snyder's piss.
posted by straight at 4:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]




Variety is stepping into the ring with a couple provocative articles on the backlash against BvS:

Why ‘Batman v Superman’ Is the Donald Trump of Comic-Book Movies

‘Batman v Superman’ Versus the Puny Critics? Puh-leeze
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:43 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Snyder getting his idea of Batman's character from Tim Burton who doesn't like comics but liked The Killing Joke and TDKR explains exactly why Batman portrayals get dumber and dumber with time
posted by beerperson at 10:54 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Say what you like about TDKR, at least it's got an ethos. This is just nihilism.
posted by Artw at 11:00 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, and this is driving me crazy, a major plot point in the end of TDKR is that Batman doesn't use guns! They are the enemy's weapon!
posted by Elementary Penguin at 11:08 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


But I mean it's

BATMAN'S CHARACTER

Frank Miller's interpretation of Batman's character --> TDKR
Tim Burton's interpretation of Frank Miller's interpretation of Batman's character --> Batman 1989
Zack Snyder's interpretation of Tim Burton's interpretation of Frank Miller's interpretation of Batman's character --> Batman v Superman
posted by beerperson at 11:11 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


Superman killing annoys me more, really. Superman has a *really good reason* to not start killing people and that's because no one could realistically stop him if he didn't stop. He could kill everyone in the entire world, and the only reason it would only take him more than an afternoon would be if he decided he needed to be really creative about it.
posted by tavella at 11:30 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am not entirely sure but it looks a hell of a lot like Batman machine guns a mutant to death in TDKR, but I'll let that pass because the "tool of the enemy" bit is so good.
posted by Artw at 11:42 AM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also he gives the "tool of the enemy" speech after the mutant shooting, so even if you assume Miller-Batman really did shoot to kill that same version of the character goes on to renounce it.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:47 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


I suppose the Mutant could have fainted, there's a bullet hole and a big stain behind him though.

There's also the weird thing across a lot of media where batman is totally fine with guns as long as they are mounted on a vehicle, which makes no sense.
posted by Artw at 2:59 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


Guns don't kill people, tanks made from an alloy that can't be damaged by anything from Earth kill people.
posted by happyroach at 3:24 PM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


But not on school nights.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:31 PM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]


To me though this gets way too far into boring-ass bible argument territory, where people go nitpicking for examples in individual issues that support their claim the way I've heard countless evangelicals cherry-pick verses that support their view. Cf the angry, vengeful Christians who point to Pissed Off Jesus with a Stick to support their culture war bullshit because there was that one time that Jesus got super mad at people and chased them around. They ignore literally every other part of the text, not to mention the overall spirit, where he is very different.

So I could give less of a crap whether noted huggy bear Frank Miller showed Bats killing a dude or shooting a gun one time. I give anti-craps about film adaptations like Batman '89 that misunderstand the character. And I certainly don't give a damn about a guy's opinion who justifies Sad, Neck-Snappy Superman because Star Wars has Space Nazis.

This isn't the MLB rule book or a legalistic religion where one writer's work is cemented as gospel. Batman's origin story, the one that we (including Snyder) are seemingly INCAPABLE OF NOT DEPICTING, shows Bruce suffering and being forever set on a path because his parents were (1) killed with (2) a gun. It's a core part of that origin that he reject that approach as a solution to his problems. Just because the occasional writer transgresses that doesn't change the spirit of the story or character (much less the thousands of counterexamples), and hunting for individual panels that refute that spirit is basically the same Biblical Pokemon bullshit I have endured hearing so many times in my life that it's grinding my very soul down to powder.

Snyder is very good with visuals. The opening Dylan montage to Watchmen was brilliant. But he has no idea how to tell a coherent story, and he and Goyer, both of them allegedly grown-ass men, both seem to be embarrassed by the existence of optimism and principled heroism. They are Ed Hardy-ing up two 75-year-old cultural legacies because they think it all looks badass. This shit matters, because this shit is how history will remember us.
posted by middleclasstool at 3:36 PM on March 30, 2016 [3 favorites]






Of course if Batman killed the mutant it also implies he hid the body, as there's no media fuss about it - contrast with the Joker later on. It also contradicts the interior monologue that goes on about not killing the joker.
posted by Artw at 6:10 AM on March 31, 2016 [2 favorites]


(Spoilers for TDKR: it's fucking awesome and if you've not already read it then what are you doing here reading this?)
posted by Artw at 6:11 AM on March 31, 2016 [3 favorites]


Someone who gets Superman wrote this.

Seriously the single greatest Superman moment of all time.

(Spoilers for TDKR: it's fucking awesome and if you've not already read it then what are you doing here reading this?)

I mean, I'm firmly in the Frank-Miller-is-a-fascist-prick camp, but TKDR is still a pretty great book.

Chase it with All-Star Superman, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:57 AM on March 31, 2016


Oh man, I'd love to see an All-Star Superman movie instead of this grim Man of Steel shit we've been handed. It would be so much better.
posted by Kitteh at 9:40 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]


I suppose the Mutant could have fainted, there's a bullet hole and a big stain behind him though.

He's asleep.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 10:24 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, in other news, Booster Gold might be coming to the DC-TVU on Legends of Tomorrow. He'll (maybe) be played by some suit though.
posted by bonehead at 11:27 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]


“Superman And The Damage Done,” Devin Faraci, Birth. Movies. Death., 30 March 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 2:41 PM on March 31, 2016 [6 favorites]




Suicide Squad, the lighthearted fun one.
posted by Artw at 7:18 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]


I can't tell if this is good news or not.

It sounds like a good idea? But it could go badly? Yet, it the trailer looked fun, so maybe it'll fine? But it's just a reaction to criticism after BvS. But that's good, right?

Jesus, I don't know if its good or bad.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:22 PM on March 31, 2016


ob1quixote: "“Superman And The Damage Done,” Devin Faraci, Birth. Movies. Death., 30 March 2016"

Sigh. I'm such a fan of Donner's Superman. We'll never get back there, will we?
posted by octothorpe at 7:25 PM on March 31, 2016


Given their track record, I can't help but worry that "fun" to them will prove to mean something on the spectrum of sarcasm to rape jokes.

On the other hand, Ayer has a pretty decent body of work, from what little I've seen. And if they're going to copy Marvel, it's encouraging that they'll at least try to copy the "it should be fun" part.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:26 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sigh. I'm such a fan of Donner's Superman. We'll never get back there, will we?

No, we won't. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I grew up on Donner's Superman - the film came out when I was 7 - and I have a lot of nostalgia for it. And I loved Superman 2 when it came out. Loved it. Both films caught something about the times and the mood and whatever, and Reeves and Donner combined to give us a hero that worked for then. We need a different Superman for now, as the "Superman and the Damage Done" article points out - every generation needs something different. The Superman of 2016 shouldn't (and can't) look like Donner's vision.

However, that Superman is emphatically not Synder's vision of the character. I could see a Superman who practices a guarded optimism; who has made a conscious choice to turn away from the cynicism and second-guessing that our instant hot-take social media world gives us. That is, a Superman who publicly appears very much like Reeves portrayed the character - polite, firm, constrained (but likely without the overgrown boy-scout vibe) - but perhaps a Clark Kent who is more world-wise, more cynical, more grounded in nuances and shades of grey, than the somewhat nebbish one of the Donner films. So we see that being Superman is a choice that he makes; not just to don the tights and lose the glasses, but to also adopt a different persona; that it isn't enough to just be physically invulnerable and nearly omnipotent, but that being a super-hero involves how one acts in addition to the acts one does. That Clark Kent is what we are; that Superman is something we could aspire to be in attitude and approach, if not in deed.

A Superman who in private conversation with Lois or Jimmy admits that he knows there are those who doubt him and his motives; that at times, he doubts himself and if what he is doing makes any difference at all because while he is effective at those moments when crisis strikes and disaster looms, he can't be there for every car accident, every misfortune, every problem that needs correction; but that he hopes by his example - not just in what he does, but how he does it - he can remind people that there is opportunity to be better in what choices they make every day in how they act and treat everyone around them. A Superman who explicitly points out that the problems he solves with his abilities only go so far, and that there are policy issues and decisions that impact people far more than he ever will, and that everyone who has any power of any kind can use it to hurt or to help. And that power comes in many forms, especially when you live in a time of instant communication tools; that how you choose to act and use the tools available to you is important.

I hope - really, really hope - that somewhere in the next few years, someone will take the big screen Superman away from Synder and give us something more to aspire to. Because the stories about our heroes are supposed to be inspirational; about great deeds done and great obstacles overcome.
posted by nubs at 8:18 PM on March 31, 2016 [6 favorites]


Jimmy's dead. Got his brains blown out 'cause no one could figure how to use the friend of the iconic character, so bye bye Jimmy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:45 PM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]


Update from my hetero-life-mate: "Like, I defended Man of Steel because I saw some real character development opportunities in it, that this was the movie where Kal-El really learns what it means to be Superman. That with this development, not only the character but the audience sees how important it is and that we all would grow together. But no. No, he was actually just an asshole the entire time and any remorse you think Superman MIGHT have felt at the end of Man of Steel was actually a relieved sense of superiority for beating 3 other supermen. Because if there was any character development in Man of Steel, it was entirely written away and forgotten in BvS. That's how bad BvS was -- it ruined TWO movies."
posted by ob1quixote at 8:46 PM on March 31, 2016


We have Captain America for all that Superman stuff now.
posted by Artw at 9:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


Can I blame Bill's speech in Kill Bill 2 for Snyder's gross misunderstanding of Superman?
posted by beerperson at 9:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sure. It's more likely Snyder's devotion to Ayn Rand that makes him misunderstand Superman so badly, though.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:40 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


At this point I'm pretty much putting it down to him being a terrible person, but that may be the same thing.
posted by Artw at 9:53 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm still glad Beatrix killed him in response to his bad Superman hermeneutic.
posted by beerperson at 10:39 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


“‘Batman v Superman’ is too smart for Marvel fans,” Kyle Smith, The New York Post, 30 March 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 11:29 AM on April 1, 2016


It's more likely Snyder's devotion to Ayn Rand that makes him misunderstand Superman so badly, though.

I'm certainly not defending Rand here, but I should point out that the best Superman movie ever was made by Brad Bird.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:51 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Poor Brad Bird. I wonder how many times he'll have to call the Rand stuff 'nonsense' or 'ridiculous' before people stop repeating it.
posted by beerperson at 12:08 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


“‘Batman v Superman’ is too smart for Marvel fans,” Kyle Smith, The New York Post, 30 March 2016

Well, that's one way to get clicks on your article.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:47 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


"You will skip a movie version of The Dark Knight Returns but be really excited for Civil War" - dumb, clearly impossible shit time travelers used to tell me.
posted by Artw at 12:51 PM on April 1, 2016 [9 favorites]


Is it really a version of Dark Knight Returns in any way beyond having Batman wear the armor to fight Superman? Nolan's TDKR at least had some scenes from the comic.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:53 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]




I thought of Nolan Rises as The Cult.
posted by Artw at 1:32 PM on April 1, 2016


Is it really a version of Dark Knight Returns in any way beyond having Batman wear the armor to fight Superman? Nolan's TDKR at least had some scenes from the comic.

No, but he copped quite a bit more than that from TKDR. The Wayne murder sequence, Robin costume suspended in glass display, Batman w/ sniper rifle, "I believe you," the Alfred bit about the the wine cellar and next generation of Waynes (that may have been somewhere else), and a few others I can't remember right now.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:03 PM on April 1, 2016


ob1quixote: “‘Batman v Superman’ is too smart for Marvel fans,” Kyle Smith, The New York Post, 30 March 2016

Apparently Age of Ultron was too smart for Kyle Smith. There was a lot of interesting shit going on in that movie, even if it was overstuffed. Also no mention of Winter Soldier, which is I think the most thematically interesting Marvel film.

I mean, make your case for the film but there's no reason to be a dismissive asshole about it.
posted by brundlefly at 4:42 PM on April 1, 2016


Can't say I'm rushing to watch that Ultron either, but there's plenty of Marvel films out there that aren't Ultron.
posted by Artw at 5:13 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ultron feels like one of two things: 1) A more enjoyable 3 hour movie that was cut down to size, leaving invisible gaps from said editing or 2) A more enjoyable 1 hr and 45 minute movie which needed even more editing down to streamline. In its current form, it just feels....off, especially when compared to Avengers. For as smooth as that film was, Ultron is a bit more bumpy as if Whedon or his overseers couldn't quite bring it home for whatever reasons. And then there's Ultron, himself, where I felt a disconnect between the character and James Spader's voice. It wasn't Ultron, it was a robot with Spader's voice coming out. I couldn't bring the two together. (He says, as he currently owns the film.)

So when can we get the info on how much the box office drop is for week 2?
posted by Atreides at 5:39 PM on April 1, 2016


I don't have a big problem with Ultron. It teeters right up to that line of being overstuffed, but manages to stay on the right side. I wish they had included the full Thor in the pool scene, as it makes more scene with it, but I seem to be in the minority on that one.

So when can we get the info on how much the box office drop is for week 2?

Here's the Box Office Mojo link for weekend changes, should be update for Friday at some point late tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Fingers crossed for a major drop, just so Warner Brothers would consider making a movie I'd be interested in seeing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:58 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


Early buzz on twitter is a 78% drop, which would certainly be major. I'm not finding posted stats to back that up, but Box Office Mojo's daily report lists BvS as the only movie in the week's top 8 performers to drop from Wednesday to Thursday - even My Big Fat Greek Wedding 2, which has even worse reviews, did better as the weekend approached. That can't be a good sign.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:11 PM on April 1, 2016


It's a huge smash hit and will continue to dominate the box office for weeks to come - at least until the next blockbuster attempt, The Jungle Book, comes out on April 15, and probably longer than that. Variety has it at a 65% drop for a $58m weekend, which is fine considering it opened on a holiday. For comparison:

Other blockbusters have seen deeper declines, such as the final “Harry Potter” movie at 72%, and the third and fourth “Twilight” films, both of which slid 70%. Still, three movies that wound up with more than $600 million saw much smaller declines with “Star Wars: The Force Awakens” falling 40%, “Jurassic World” declining 49% and “Marvel’s The Avengers” down 50%.

I mean, the movie sounds horrible and it won't be getting my money, but there's no denying it's a huge financial success for Warner Brothers and its investors. About all anyone who loves DC characters can hope for at this point is that the harshly negative reviews will put someone (an adult, preferably) watching the production more closely over Zack Snyder's shoulder the next time.
posted by mediareport at 5:06 AM on April 2, 2016


Sounds like there's some conflicting reports. Deadline says:

Well, the poor critical reviews and mixed word of mouth are finally taking a toll on the second weekend ticket sales for Warner Bros.’ Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Tonight’s revised FSS average ranges between $51M-$56M. At the low end, that’s a 69% drop, matching the second frame freefall of 20th Century Fox’s X-Men Origins: Wolverine. Worse news? One rival studio calculation has the DC superhero mashup at –oy– a 71% decline with a FSS of $48M.
posted by overglow at 5:29 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm betting it's close to a 70% drop, which will turn heads at WB. In the long term it'll under perform while still being profitable. Just not very profitable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:42 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I probably like Ultron a little better than BvS but not a lot better. Both of them were overstuffed and underwritten (incomprehensible dream sequences too).
posted by octothorpe at 6:05 AM on April 2, 2016


Come on, it's clearly a financially successful hit, even if it never crosses the billion-dollar mark of Warner execs' wet dreams. Serves them right for making a shitty movie, but the thing's on track to 3/4 of a billion dollars globally, and that's hardly "not very profitable."
posted by mediareport at 6:26 AM on April 2, 2016


It's a huge smash hit and will continue to dominate the box office for weeks to come - at least until the next blockbuster attempt, The Jungle Book, comes out on April 15, and probably longer than that. Variety has it at a 65% drop for a $58m weekend, which is fine considering it opened on a holiday. For comparison:

I wouldn't be surprised if it lost first place to The Boss (the new Melissa McCarthy vehicle) before The Jungle Book.
posted by codacorolla at 6:37 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Both of them were overstuffed and underwritten (incomprehensible dream sequences too).

What are you talking about? Tony's messed up dream was clearly shaped by the Scarlet Witch into something truly terrible, in order to weaken the team. The dream itself just fed on his guilt and doubt, so it makes reasonable sense story wise.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well incomprehensible to me at least. Obviously other people too or Slate wouldn't have had to write this explainer.
posted by octothorpe at 7:38 AM on April 2, 2016


It feel 85% in the Chinese market when comparing Friday returns. . I doubt the drop for the American market will be that high. But fingers crossed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:02 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]




Even if you don't watch Conan, everyone should check out the full cast interview that he did on Thursday. There are some really funny parts, some really awkward parts (Hunter and Eisenberg seem to legitimately hate each other), and some eye raising parts (Affleck has a look of bemused contempt on his face the entire time, and really hedges when Conan asks about Leto). Conan does a great job at getting humor out of the situation. It's fun. Probably more fun than the movie could ever be.
posted by codacorolla at 9:01 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Eisenberg seems to legit hate everybody and, per Anne Helen Petersen's latest, I wonder about the alternate universe where Benajmen Affleck is the junior democratic senator for Mass.
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 AM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


81% drop in US market!

Yowch. I've been debating going to a movie (obviously not this one) this weekend and it's still playing on a massive number of screens in my relatively small market (two theaters in town). I really wonder how many seats are actually being filled up.

I'd like to think that WB execs won't look at how much it's bringing in, but being greedy, will consider how much cash was left on the table that could have been made if a different director with a different vision had been at the helm.
posted by Atreides at 10:29 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Snyder begins filming the next one within few weeks, it's unlikely that they'd change at this point.
posted by octothorpe at 10:47 AM on April 2, 2016


Snyder begins filming the next one within few weeks, it's unlikely that they'd change at this point.

Suicide Squad is doing reshoots, supposedly to add more humor, though it's due out this summer. So there's no reason why the studio wouldn't or couldn't change something about Justice League, which hasn't even started filming.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:06 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'd like to think that WB execs won't look at how much it's bringing in, but being greedy, will consider how much cash was left on the table that could have been made if a different director with a different vision had been at the helm.

I mean, with the way Hollywood blockbusters work, it's pretty much unheard of for them to outright fail. They always make their money back, especially once international sales come in.

But an 81% ticket drop in the second week is going to be a huge disappointment for the folks bankrolling these things, and they'd be completely negligent if they didn't try to figure out why this one was such a dud and how to prevent it happening to the next one. (And I don't just mean doing some kneejerk reshoots on Suicide Squad, though realistically that's all WB is actually gonna do.)
posted by tobascodagama at 11:24 AM on April 2, 2016


81% drop in US market!

That's just for Friday, guys, not for the weekend as a whole, and is in large part due to the fact that last Friday's haul included $27 million from the Thursday night previews as well.

The weekend drop will be significantly less than 81%.
posted by mediareport at 12:16 PM on April 2, 2016


It's an 81% drop period. If the Thursday numbers were good enough to include for last week's opening high, they're good enough to include for this week's low.

Even if you want to take them out, you're still talking a 71.5%, which isn't that much better. Execs are looking up from their mounds of cocaine and wondering WTF.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:46 PM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


I sadly suspect real financial hit for this being a peice of garbage will be when Suicide Squad comes out.
posted by Artw at 12:48 PM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


How the hell does Warner Bros. Animation get Justice League vs. Teen Titans (2016) SO RIGHT , yet WB get the entire actual live action franchise SO WRONG?
posted by mikelieman at 2:55 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]


Zack Snyder.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:20 PM on April 2, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Friday-to-Friday fall is substantially worse than Age of Ultron, which is probably the cleanest benchmark. They are less than a year apart, both second in big franchises, and both somewhat more harshly reviewed than their predecessor. I'm just not sure it's *enough* worse to derail WB's Snyder-train, at least not in time to save Justice League.
posted by tavella at 3:34 PM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]




I just got back from seeing it. It's pretty bad.
posted by brundlefly at 6:15 PM on April 2, 2016


Of course he's a Randian. How the hell did I not see that one coming. Quick, someone ask him about vaccines and Israel.

How the hell does Warner Bros. Animation get Justice League vs. Teen Titans (2016) SO RIGHT , yet WB get the entire actual live action franchise SO WRONG?

To be fair, animation is the only place they aren't making regular bad calls at DC. They have some good titles in the comics but they're mostly flailing around there too. But I don't know why animation has avoided all that.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:40 PM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Up till 2011 that reason was Dwayne McDuffie, I guess he left a strong legacy.
posted by Artw at 9:37 PM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]


.
posted by mikelieman at 11:40 PM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]


Saturday is looking better for the film, with a only a fall of 68%, which is better than X-Men Origins: Wolverine‘s (69%) and Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2 (72%). However, Deathly Hallows was up against Captain America, the First Avenger in its second week, while BvS has literally no competition. But BvS does seems to be getting the bulk of its money from the non-American market, like Hallows did, the latter film eventually making 1.3B. BvS is up to 683M, so it maybe could break a billion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:05 AM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Box Office Mojo updated its estimate to include the full weekend, and has the film at a 68.4% drop, much less than its estimated 81% Friday-to-Friday drop.
posted by mediareport at 9:37 AM on April 3, 2016


Still an odd drop, as BvS wasn't facing competition in its second week.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:40 AM on April 3, 2016


Nobody touch that monkey paw and give Gods Not Dead 2 a huge opening.
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]


But God has already had a huge opening, Artw.

IN YOUR HEART.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:23 PM on April 3, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am fully on board with being okay with Snyderverse DC movies existing. They serve as an important, if drastic, contrast to the Marvel machine of sparkling, yet sterile, Disney excellence.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:47 PM on April 3, 2016


As I mentioned in one of the first comments, I went to see Deadpool. What a great movie.

Still not going to see BvS.
posted by Pendragon at 6:38 AM on April 4, 2016


Nobody touch that monkey paw and give Gods Not Dead 2 a huge opening.

Of the two terrible movies that utterly misunderstand characters I love, only BvS is going to preclude other people from making better movies about said characters. I'll touch that monkey paw.
posted by straight at 7:11 AM on April 4, 2016


Also, I bet Ray Wise playing an eeeeeeevil ACLU lawyer is more fun to watch than Jessie Eisenberg's Lex Luthor.
posted by straight at 7:15 AM on April 4, 2016


Batman Vs Superman Vs Marine Todd
posted by Artw at 7:18 AM on April 4, 2016 [2 favorites]


That would indirectly shoehorn Batman and Superman into the Blade Runner universe and NO.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:49 AM on April 4, 2016


They serve as an important, if drastic, contrast to the Marvel machine of sparkling, yet sterile, Disney excellence.

Yeah, that is a worrisome aspect of the Suicide Squad reshoots. I'm not familiar with the comic, but it does sound like a story that should be dark. Trying to copy the Guardians of the Galaxy tone doesn't sound like a great idea (though it may work). Not every superhero movie should have the same tone.

I've enjoyed the Marvel movies for this reason, especially with the different genre within genre tones of the various movies. Winter Solider worked so very well because it wasn't like Guardians, it was a cold war/spy film that fit very well with Captain America's story. Ant-Man worked well as a heist film with superheroes. Guardians worked well as a people finding a family (with superheroes). Civil War sounds like it'll be more serious because there are some serious issues the various movies have been leading up to.

I hope the Justice League films manage to do something different from the Avengers.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:56 AM on April 4, 2016


If they're trying to adapt the mood of the comics, Suicide Squad should be dark, but with not-infrequent moments of outright comedy. One of the best-loved elements of the series is the part where, over a period of a dozen issues or so, the team's home base is plagued by a mystery assailant who hits team members in the face with cream pies from off-panel. Another time, a (rather prominent) member of the cast dies, and his ghost immediately quotes Rocky Rococco.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:00 AM on April 4, 2016




Trying to copy the Guardians of the Galaxy tone doesn't sound like a great idea (though it may work).

I think they're trying to copy Deadpool in tone if anything, given the timing of the decision.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:27 AM on April 4, 2016


Which, I don't know, could work?

Suicide Squad has always been a take on the underside of the DC Universe laced with dark humor. Now, given that the Snyderverse is already all dark and all underside stressing the humor part of that makes sense, it's just weird that it's come to this.
posted by Artw at 9:34 AM on April 4, 2016


Aargh, I hate TDKR so much... it's sooo reactionary, hateful, homophobic, and mental-illness-shaming...

I love this line from the article though: And what people don’t realize is that the problem isn’t Superman. The problem is us. We messed a lot of the narrative world up by embracing these grimdark takes
posted by overglow at 9:52 AM on April 4, 2016


Other gems from the article include:
It feels like SuperFights™ are especially prominent this year, and watching Daredevil’s Punisher-centric second season in the same month as Batman V Superman has me pretty exhausted already. Looking at these stories as a reflection of the culture they’re being told in, I don’t think it’s coincidental that they’re all debuting in a year where the United States is becoming increasingly divided along political lines, with both major political parties currently engaged in some intense in-fighting. The country is fractured, and its popular entertainment is reflecting the growing schism by having heroes turn against each other.
And:
How we depict our heroes says a lot about our culture, and superheroes that kill help promote a worldview that says it’s alright to kill bad people, which is extremely problematic because personal opinions on what is “bad” vary so greatly.
posted by overglow at 10:00 AM on April 4, 2016 [4 favorites]


Aargh, I hate TDKR so much... it's sooo reactionary, hateful, homophobic, and mental-illness-shaming...

I loved TDKR when I first read it...like 25-30 years ago? Now I see it as a fascinating piece of history, in terms of how it was part of shaping comics and for the weird "Strongman" reactionary fetish it represents. It's been quite some time since I've read it, but I recall a section or two more from Superman's POV (likely when he was going through the blast) that seemed somewhat sympathetic/empathetic with his world view to a degree, but I could be mistaken.

Anyways, it is a difficult comic but one that I feel very much captures what the mindset of someone like a Batman, (if you removed the detective aspect) would have to be - an incredible obsession and focus; and an unwavering belief that he is right no matter what. I'd love to suggest that TDKR could be read in such a way as to suggest that while we're pretty much always in Bruce's POV and that he's an unreliable narrator; that there is evidence is worldview and approach is wrong if you read it closely, but I know I was thinking that on my last read through and didn't see anything to that effect.

That being said, while I haven't seen BvS and may never, I did like this line from the AV Club article:

Oh, how I longed for Miller’s scene of Batman breaking a shotgun over his knee and denouncing it as “the weapon of the enemy” as I watched Batffleck gun down his opponents.

And it has me wondering if there is someone out there with the vision and the guts to do a Batman story that is more detective and less destruction. Just like I'm hoping there's someone out there with the vision and the guts to give us a 21st Superman who is an example of hope in a dark time, as opposed to another grimdark hero of the action set-piece.
posted by nubs at 12:09 PM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'd like to see a noir-ish detective take, yeah. Something that's not just "I did computer magic on bullet fragments" but actual investigation. That side of him's been lost. In fact, as I understand it, Snyder's Batman is pretty easy to trick.

"Hush" tried to do a good noir thing, but "Hush" to me reads almost like the plot was generated by software tuned to learn what Batman elements would sell well. It's like the story version of a greatest hits compilation.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:47 PM on April 4, 2016 [1 favorite]


So... I disabled my account for a few weeks while you folks hashed this out to avoid jumping the gun on a comment here.

Let me throw in a few disclaimers: 1. Although I grew up reading comic books in the '50's, I pretty much gave them up once I hit adolescence, they ain't my "thing". 2. My kid has a producer credit on B v S, and is a business partner with Zack Snyder, my son's wife is Zack's personal assistant. 3. I consider Zack a friend, I've known him since before he started making movies. So, yes, I'm a bit biased.

However, I don't want to defend Zack's vision regarding the DC world, that's a matter of opinion and like they say, everyone has one, and opinions are neither right nor wrong.

I do want to encourage the community to, in the future, consider that comments made here are made to the world, and, because of the far reaching nature of THIS particular community, they are likely to be read by individuals closely connected to the topic, if not the individual that is actually the focus of the FPP.

Zack's, or any artist/creative type's, work is certainly open to critical comments, that's the nature of the profession, but at times these discussions degrade into some pretty intense personal attacks. I could scroll through here, but the comment that compared Zack to someone that was "actually shallow as fuck, kind of an asshole", sort of sums up the tone that I'm referring to. I honestly doubt that the writer really had the personal knowledge necessary to make that type of comment. And, "I just looked up some photos of Snyder, which usefully confirmed what I already suspected: that his movie career should have started, and finished, with him playing the part of "Baseball Coach" in an American Pie or Scary Movie direct-to-video sequel.". "...Photos..."? I'm honestly not sure what that means, what photos, why is that significant.

Those kind of comments, that tone, take the thread to a different level, and I like to think that we intend to be THAT community.

Folks, like the movie or don't like the movie, but let's discuss it on it's merits (or lack thereof, depending on where you stand on it).
posted by HuronBob at 9:59 PM on April 4, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh come on, calling Zack Snyder an asshole or complaining about his face is basically metonymy - of course posters here have no idea who he is as a person, and it's about his work and how he uses it to present himself to the world. Yes, it's a big site and there are people who are bound to be connected to the subjects of posts. But he has made and directed a half-dozen tentpole movies, selling tickets to literally millions of people. That is a very large amount of praise-communicated-in-the-speech-of-money, and should definitely offset the opinions of a few of his personal assistant's father-in-law's internet acquaintances.
posted by gingerest at 12:27 AM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


HuronBob, make sure to tell Zack Snyder I enjoyed Deadpool.
posted by Pendragon at 1:03 AM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


Welcome back, HuronBob! (I'd hoped that your account was only temporarily disabled.) That said, countering any ad hominem attacks against a friend with appeals to pity (and maybe a dash of compadrismo) is just trading rhetorical devices.

Since 99.9% of the blue does not have a social acquaintance with Snyder, his (numerous) statements to the press are the best available for an inside look at his creative process behind his movies. For example, this is how he explains killing off one of the comic's best-known supporting characters, Jimmy Olsen, "Superman's Pal":

"We just did it as this little aside because we had been tracking where we thought the movies were gonna go, and we don’t have room for Jimmy Olsen in our big pantheon of characters, but we can have fun with him, right?" And, furthermore, in the R-rated edition, "He comes up to her and he goes, ‘Lois Lane, I’m Jimmy Olsen, photographer, obviously … You know, I’ve been assigned to you for this mission.’ But it turns out that Jimmy Olsen is a spook for the CIA."

From a combination of that extended quote and the finished product of BvS:DoJ-SUV/PG-13, it's fair to conclude, as the Atlantic's critic does, that for Zack Snyder "“fun” apparently equals shocking violence and death".

If Snyder would like to defend himself personally against his own words here in this thread, MeFi membership is still a steal at five bucks.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:23 AM on April 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


the comment that compared Zack to someone that was "actually shallow as fuck, kind of an asshole", sort of sums up the tone that I'm referring to

Considering Snyder consistently misses the themes of the material he adapts, from DOTD to Watchmen to TDKR, I'm not sure what other word would be apropos. Superficial?

As for the asshole comment, never met a Randian who wasn't. He sure does shoot a purdy picture, though, I'll give him that.

Glad you're back, HuronBob, though.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:16 AM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


LOL
posted by Artw at 11:08 AM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm gonna assume you need to know the people involved in that Twittr thread to get what's really going on, because based solely on the actual exchange that Lindy West person seems like a big jerk, and I suspect that I'm supposed to think that Nick Schoenfold is the jerk.
posted by Bugbread at 2:38 PM on April 5, 2016


I'm kind of boggled you think so Bugbread, because the guy has never seen the movie, and decides to critique her review with nonsense statements, which she, frankly more nicely that I would, points out are nonsense. He's an idiot even before he goes whining at the white supremacist gamergater.
posted by tavella at 2:47 PM on April 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, I'm thinking I'd have to read her review as well. From just the quoted bit it reads like any random MeFi discussion ("My problem with A is B" "I haven't seen A, but B isn't always a problem" "I never said it's always a problem"). That's why I'm suspecting the background is important.
posted by Bugbread at 3:35 PM on April 5, 2016


Lindy West's short, savage review: Batman v Superman is 153 minutes of a grown man whacking two dolls together
posted by mediareport at 3:58 PM on April 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


I couldn't comment on BvS specifically, but this rings very true:

One of the great beauties of comic books, as a form, is their expansiveness. These stories sprawl over decades, reboots, hundreds of writers, thousands of issues. The cumulative result is a depth of character that you simply can’t achieve in other mediums, even television. Even wildly divergent characterisations feed into that underlying pool of human complexity – comic books can get away with massive action set pieces because they have put in the work to make you care. That’s why bad superhero movies are so bad: they flatten the genre not just into mediocrity, but into a direct foil of its most powerful appeal. This is Naming Rights: The Movie.
posted by Artw at 4:01 PM on April 5, 2016 [3 favorites]


FWIW Bugbread "Gamergate rando might be right about something" is not really a thing you should bet on.
posted by Artw at 4:05 PM on April 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Thanks for the link, mediareport. Yeah, after reading the review (which was fine and good) Nick looks like a jerk, too. I'm guessing there is additional background stuff that makes the out-of-left-field mansplaining comment make sense, too.

Artw: "FWIW Bugbread "Gamergate rando might be right about something" is not really a thing you should bet on."

Gamergate? Like I said, I suspect this exchange requires me to know stuff about the background of the people involved, and if I knew who they were then the exchange would read quite differently.
posted by Bugbread at 4:11 PM on April 5, 2016


Well, all you need to know is about a year or so back all the dumbest Nazis and idiots on the Internet banded together and elected Milo their king, and leaking into conversations with uninformed gibberish is their signature move.

(That and anonymous threats)

That there's a solid overlap between them and people who leap to the defense of BvS without having seen it should probably be unsurprising.
posted by Artw at 4:20 PM on April 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, wait, that Milo?

Okay, yeah, things are makin' more sense.
posted by Bugbread at 4:34 PM on April 5, 2016


I just stumbled across the first Avenger's movie on tv and the scene where Iron Man and Thor. It's a stunning difference from BvS, where the entire movie leads up to the fight. In Avengers, the fight between heroes is brief and happens for somewhat legitimate reason: Thor kidnaps Loki from a Quinjet because he doesn't think mankind can handle him. Iron Man goes after Thor because mankind has every intention controlling Loki. The two slug it out for a literally about 2 minutes and then Cap breaks them up and everyone makes nice. Nobody has to act all nutty and rage fueled and they're not really interested in killing each other. Well played Joss, well played.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:14 PM on April 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


(Don't forget sending SWAT to people's houses, Art! But you're right, there is a lot more gibbering butting-in than anything else, even rape threats.)
posted by gingerest at 5:15 PM on April 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


The two slug it out for a literally about 2 minutes and then Cap breaks them up and everyone makes nice. Nobody has to act all nutty and rage fueled and they're not really interested in killing each other. Well played Joss, well played.

Whedon actually, you know, reads superhero comics because he likes them. That's the way most superhero showdowns go - there's a misunderstanding, the fight each other to a draw, one of them realizes they shouldn't be fighting and the other agrees as they're both heroes. This doesn't take long, and the rest of the issue is an AWESOME TEAM-UP! Which, to be frank, is always a good time in the Marvel Multiverse.

There are exceptions - whenever The Hulk meets The Thing (Rage and Unlimited Power meets Cynical Smarts and Just Enough Grunt, one can't be outmatched, the other can't be beaten, and the writers and artists take this out for pages and pages of awesome), or the X-Men decide they need a new leader and walk into the Danger Room to sort it out, or anyone meeting The Punisher, but those exceptions prove the rule.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:25 PM on April 5, 2016


> In other superhero genre news, here's a few shots from the filming of Dr. Strange in New York.

First Look at Mads Mikkelsen in Doctor Strange Villain Garb. Plus Benedict Cumberbatch buying comics in full Strange costume.
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on April 5, 2016


Nobody has to act all nutty and rage fueled and they're not really interested in killing each other.

Except for the part where Thor smashes Captain America into a bloody paste--or would have if Steve had been holding any other object in the universe rather than that nigh-magical shield.
posted by straight at 8:28 PM on April 5, 2016


But bro, it looked so cool!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:34 AM on April 6, 2016


Cumberbatch appears to be ridiculously into Ditko fingers.
posted by Artw at 8:20 AM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hmn, BvS's plummet at the box office is bad enough for Warner Bros. to have issued a statement to say they're "not concerned with the drop".
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:15 AM on April 6, 2016


I'm not sure what to make of the drop; there are a lot of films aimed at certain genre slices/segments out there that will get a big audience the opening weekend because that audience is keen and excited and wants to see the film. Does the dropoff represent poor reviews/word-of-mouth or just that the natural audience has seen the film, and there isn't enough appeal to broaden it nor enough to create repeat viewers? Star Wars: TFA appeared to be able to both broaden and create repeat viewers during its run; but maybe that is the exception for the big tentpole movies now.

Overall, the film has taken in a nice big chunk of money through two weeks; however long it stays in theatres, the DVD & streaming release will bring it a nice chunk more. As much as I may not like this version of the DC Universe and am hoping for something different, I don't expect the bottom to fall out anytime soon.
posted by nubs at 9:55 AM on April 6, 2016


Except that it dropped worse than comparable recent superhero films, and that's what has got WB freaked. ASM2 is probably the relevant comparison; it made tons of money... but it made a good deal less than expected, and from the Sony memos we have a good view on how badly that went down internally. Which resulted in them bringing in Marvel to make future Spiderman films a joint enterprise. Not something a studio does lightly.
posted by tavella at 10:13 AM on April 6, 2016 [2 favorites]


Does the dropoff represent poor reviews/word-of-mouth or just that the natural audience has seen the film, and there isn't enough appeal to broaden it nor enough to create repeat viewers

Considering that it dropped so much with no competition in the US market means that film didn't really do as well as it could have. Hell, it had three iconic characters in it, and not even that was enough to make a lot people tell their friends "you gotta see this!"

So it'll do fine in the long run, WB will be happy with that and they'll probably produce more of them, to diminishing financial returns. Which doesn't have to be a terrible thing. If they can get the budget down for future films, then they'll be doing really well from a money point of view.

DC comics and its inventory of potential movies is just a tool for Warner Brothers. They don't care, at this point, about making movies that people love, they just want to make movies that enough people will go see in that first week or two to make a little profit.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:01 AM on April 6, 2016


Considering the fact that this is the first major installment in a movie franchise, DC needs people to want to see the future films. Much of the first week sales were because of presales, where BvS set a record. If you're a DC exec, then you have to be nervous how the general malaise translates into future views for the franchise, especially with the comparative success of your major competitor (Disney / Marvel) in capturing the box office for second and third weekends. From that light, even with good sales numbers, the second weekend freefall has to be somewhat worrying.
posted by codacorolla at 11:14 AM on April 6, 2016


That's the way most superhero showdowns go - there's a misunderstanding, the fight each other to a draw, one of them realizes they shouldn't be fighting and the other agrees as they're both heroes.

Snyder's pushing DC movies towards realism = grimdark, a trend started by Nolan, is dreary and po-faced and humorless. That said, within that emotional context, Batman's personal vendetta towards Superman is very well depicted and understandable. Here we have a street-level vigilante seeing an entire city get wrecked by inhuman beings beyond time and space. Yes, xenophobia is a terrible reflex. Yes, opting for gritty Millerite realism is both Nietzschean and oh-so-'80s. But there's real resonance there-

'"he sees an entire city destroyed by some unknown force and finally at the very end hes cradling a little girl whose mom died in his arms and he looks up and he sees the monster responsible for this untold destruction streaking down out of the sky in a trail of fire and is clearly thinking, then and there, "im going to kill that"'

That's how you set up the emotional stakes of a titanic battle. And ironically, the clash itself is both a little underwhelming for a director of this bombastic excess- especially since Lex Eisenberg hypes it up right beforehand!- and the turn towards reconciliation away from bloodlust was so quick and felt unearned. (But I would also argue that the reconciliation was not without basis.)
posted by Apocryphon at 11:14 AM on April 6, 2016


As easy as it is to make fun of WB-DC's grimdark 'realism' vs. Disney-Marvel's fun-snark escapism (a few tonal departures like Green Lantern or Winter Soldier aside), I'm glad both exist, to provide contrast to each other. Plus, after the grimdark, comes the Reconstruction...
posted by Apocryphon at 11:25 AM on April 6, 2016


Looking forward, if BvS does a 50% drop, that would put it at 25 million for the weekend. Melissa McCarthy has The Boss opening, which is quite likely looking at a similar 25 million debut. That's actually the same trajectory as Age of Ultron (AoU dropped to third place in its third frame), but with much softer competition. Hardcore Henry could also play spoiler, since there's significant overlap with the fanbase there.
posted by codacorolla at 12:23 PM on April 6, 2016


Hardcore Henry could end up turning cinemas into vomitoriums, which might count against it.
posted by Artw at 1:03 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm with you on that. Just watching the trailer on the bigscreen made me feel ill.
posted by codacorolla at 1:09 PM on April 6, 2016


Hardcore Henry could end up turning cinemas into vomitoriums, which might count against it.

ONLY FOR THE WEAK, aka not Batman.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:41 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Vomitorium
posted by Bugbread at 2:44 PM on April 6, 2016


“Warner Bros. Is in Such Denial Over Batman v Superman,” Rob Bricken, io9, 06 April 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 3:13 PM on April 6, 2016


Vomitorium

Fine, spew-o-rama then.
posted by Artw at 6:55 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


If I had a million wishes, one of them would be that within my lifetime archeologists and historians discovered that while ancient Romans did not have vomit rooms called vomitoriums, they did have vomit rooms called "spew-o-rama".

If I had a million and one wishes, one would be that this was followed by massive angry Internet arguments about whether the plural of spew-o-rama is "spew-o-ramas", "spews-o-rama", "spew-o-ramae" or "spew-o-ramii".
posted by Bugbread at 7:35 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]


Rob Bricken at io9 is a bit hysterical. The movie's made over $700 million in less than 2 weeks, and Bricken is comparing it to Alice In Wonderland's 4-month run. I'd be very surprised if B v. S doesn't break the billion-dollar mark before it leaves theaters, but even if it [cough] only makes $900 million, which seems certain at this point, that's just fine for WB to tell the world they don't foresee making major changes to their grimdark game plan. I mean, we all know there are intense conversations going on right now at WB about the future direction of the franchise, but io9"s absurd shrieking isn't helping those conversations along at all.
posted by mediareport at 8:24 PM on April 6, 2016


Yeah, that whole article is:
WB: "We're not going to do X"
Rob: "Oh my god Warner Brothers is not going to do anything at all they are crazy!!"
posted by Bugbread at 8:38 PM on April 6, 2016


Rob Bricken at io9 is a bit hysterical. The movie's made over $700 million in less than 2 weeks, and Bricken is comparing it to Alice In Wonderland's 4-month run.

That's the whole point. BvS seems to be tanking to the point that even after 4 months, it wouldn't have made as much. It's falling much faster than Alice in Wonderland, with hardly any competition in the US market for its first two weeks.

I'd be very surprised if B v. S doesn't break the billion-dollar mark before it leaves theaters, but even if it [cough] only makes $900 million, which seems certain at this point, that's just fine for WB to tell the world they don't foresee making major changes to their grimdark game plan. I mean, we all know there are intense conversations going on right now at WB about the future direction of the franchise, but io9"s absurd shrieking isn't helping those conversations along at all.

Io9's point isn't to help the conversation, whatever that means, but to bring eyeballs to its sight and observations about BvS are doing exactly that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:05 AM on April 7, 2016


Yeah, Jurassic World cleared 1.6 billion with a property with a fraction of the DC trinity's value and a critical reception that was pretty well summarized by the word "eh". Nudging up under a billion is awesome money but doesn't come close to what BvS should have been expected to do with those characters and no competition. Also the critics compared it to being yelled at on a bus and nobody who's seen it is exactly glowing.

Warner's comforting themselves with the superficially reasonable point that 900 mil would be a weird definition of a failure, but in this context it's lost face and one more chapter in the DC's-chasing-the-geniuses-at-Marvel narrative of the last few decades. You don't issue a statement that you're not worried about sales unless you had a meeting to discuss what you should do about sales.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:02 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]


From IGN:
"We had a scene that we cut from the movie where he tries to look for her when he finds out that Lex has got her," Snyder continued. "It was a slightly dark scene that we cut out because it sort of represented this dark side. Because when he was looking for his mom he heard all the cries of all the potential crimes going on in the city, you know when you look."
Emphasis added. Synder cut stuff from the film for being too dark. Too. Dark.

And I'm kinda going, you know, that would be an interesting aspect of the character to explore and understand and maybe help make him accessible and you know, kind of help underpin the whole idea of a Justice League and why you'd team up as a bunch of superheroes and the limits of power and the wisdom of intervention.
posted by nubs at 10:21 AM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


That's an odd thing to find dark, IMO. It anything, it puts the conundrum of Superman in a stark light: He's a god, but he can't save everyone, so he has to pick an choose. And yeah, he's gonna place his own mother above all others. Who wouldn't, (presuming it was a good relationship)?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:00 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nowhere near as dark as the scene in Superman Returns where Brandon Routherman hovers in low Earth orbit, surveying all the world's struggles, every opportunity he might have to lend or refuse aid, when suddenly something catches his super-powered eye and with a start he soars down from the sky...to foil a bank robbery.
posted by straight at 1:01 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


Brandon Blatcher: "That's an odd thing to find dark, IMO. It anything, it puts the conundrum of Superman in a stark light: He's a god, but he can't save everyone, so he has to pick an choose. And yeah, he's gonna place his own mother above all others. Who wouldn't, (presuming it was a good relationship)?"

We all would, but that doesn't make it any less dark. "Oh, look, there's an infant being beaten to death. I can see and hear it perfectly. But I'm busy looking for my mom, so I'm going to let that baby die." Even if that's a decision we all might make, and even if it puts the conundrum of Superman in a stark light, it's still a dark scene.
posted by Bugbread at 3:46 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's an odd thing to find dark, IMO. It anything, it puts the conundrum of Superman in a stark light: He's a god, but he can't save everyone, so he has to pick an choose. And yeah, he's gonna place his own mother above all others. Who wouldn't, (presuming it was a good relationship)?

Yeah, "too dark" is an obvious cop out in describing that scene. It was a scene that might invite questions about Superman's moral decision-making, by acknowledging that Superman does, in fact, make moral choices when he decides which events he will intervene in. More to the point, it invites the unmistakable conclusion that Superman's moral choices can be swayed by his human relationships and other emotional biases rather than by some hyper-rational moral calculus. I leave it as an exercise to the reader why someone like Snyder would consider that "dark".
posted by tobascodagama at 5:14 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


“I kind of like the idea that he’s taught himself not to look because if he looks it’s just neverending, right? You have to know when, as Superman, when to intervene and when not to. Or not when not to, you can’t be everywhere at once, literally you can’t be everywhere at once, so he has to be really selective in a weird way about where he chooses to interfere.”

I think, contrary to critics, Snyder doesn't completely miss the point of the comics he's adapting. It's just, he can't help himself but to eke out the stylistically most sensationalist and ultraviolent interpretation. So he would probably find it too dark because his rendering of the scene really would involve Superman hearing the most vile, most depraved of criminal activities possible, to the point of being gratuitous.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:52 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


60% drop from last Friday. Battling it out with The Boss for #1 weekend spot. Currently at 742M total globally.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:48 AM on April 9, 2016


60% drop from last Friday.

That is not good news at all. If Batman v Superman: Spawn of Franchise does similar business for the rest of the weekend, it would suggest not only that the super-fans went mostly on opening weekend and aren't going back, but also that their word-of-mouth isn't bringing in new butts to the cinema seats.

Meanwhile, Marvel Studios just cleared its throat by screenings Captain America: Avengers 2.5 in advance for critics—and the response is very favourable. (It looks as though Marvel is cannily letting them talk about it on Twitter, even though reviews seem to be embargoed.) One box office analyst is so positive about its prospects that he's dispensed with a worst-case scenario and is simply predicting better- and best-case ones for it.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:52 PM on April 9, 2016


Just got back from the panel with the Weasley twins at ECCC and I can tell you one is Team Cap and one is Tony. No Supes/Bats opinions expressed.
posted by Artw at 1:15 PM on April 9, 2016


Yeah, "too dark" is an obvious cop out in describing that scene. It was a scene that might invite questions about Superman's moral decision-making, by acknowledging that Superman does, in fact, make moral choices when he decides which events he will intervene in.

And to me, it might go a ways in explaining a Superman who appears reluctant in his role; who is somewhat aloof and distant and difficult to understand. Because he knows every moment he is making a choice - to intervene in this type of event, over that type of event; to help some but not all; that his path is fraught with peril because he will inevitably be unable to save everyone who needs him and through his apprehension, he holds himself apart and is a troubled and troubling figure.
posted by nubs at 2:16 PM on April 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


That sounds like an interesting take on Supes, a character I don't much care for.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:36 PM on April 9, 2016


Because he knows every moment he is making a choice - to intervene in this type of event, over that type of event; to help some but not all; that his path is fraught with peril because he will inevitably be unable to save everyone who needs him and through his apprehension, he holds himself apart and is a troubled and troubling figure.

The biggest problem here is that as soon as we have Superman reflecting seriously on how to do the most good with his powers, we'll end up with Superman turning a crank really fast or something else equally boring-but-actually-really-useful.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 2:44 PM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


For a less jokey take on "What If Superman Were A Hyper-Rational Utilitarian?", there's also Superman: Red Son.
posted by tobascodagama at 3:47 PM on April 9, 2016


I've been thinking that the DC movieverse could successfully distinguish itself and keep the dark tone without it being all cynical and murdery by going just a touch weird. And you start by adapting Swamp Thing.

Make a really moody, mysterious, deep-south Southern Gothic movie with lurking swamp horrors and ancient, dangerous forces tenuously holding onto a balance of power. Drop Alec Holland into the middle of it and tear his life apart. Push him to the brink of madness, maybe even including that wonderful Alan Moore moment when he confronted his own corpse and realized that the real Alec had died in that swamp, and use that to forge a new kind of hero that the movies haven't seen yet.

That can (and should!) be dark without being the murderverse. It can be moody and serious while still embracing the inherent weirdness and absurdity of hero comics. And it can kick off a tone for the whole DC movie universe, one awash in mystery and WTF.

Batman can go back to being a detective again, and could give us a superhero noir film. How fucking awesome would that be? Superman could discover that whoops, yep, magic is a weakness of his too. Wonder Woman could turn into something Sandman-esque with Greek gods and ancient monsters. Bring back that creepy Hades kid with a head full of candles!

Have the guts to do what Marvel did and go deeper into your bench. Introduce beloved and weird characters that most people don't know about. Make it weird and beautiful and engaging and yes, make it dark but also heroic. Show us something new.

Maybe I'm an outlier, but I would hand DC and Warner a shit ton of my money if they did that right.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:07 AM on April 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


Have the guts to do what Marvel did and go deeper into your bench.

Shadowpact and Detective Chimp. Just sayin'
posted by mikelieman at 7:24 AM on April 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Detective Chimp could no-shit be an unexpected hit. All you have to do to sell it is have a good script and point at Rocket Raccoon.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:36 AM on April 10, 2016


Detective Chimp could no-shit be an unexpected hit.

Warner Bros. wants expected hits, i.e. films that are pretty much guaranteed to make a decent profit.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:48 AM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


The best thing that happened to Marvel creatively was not having Spider-Man or the X-Men to fall back on. A ton of their firsts were question marks at the time. Thor? Guardians? And they were huge goddamn hits. Even Deadpool looked risky at first.

I know the studios like to copy successes, so copy that success. Copy the success of adapting weird and cool shit that the comics fans drool over and nobody else knows about yet.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:20 AM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


This might be the best article I've read about all this... It's all good, but this analysis about what's likely to happen seems plausible and grounded and well-informed (if not what I want to hear):
fans who’d like to see the disappointment of BVS drive major changes to the planned DC Extended Universe should likely prepare themselves for further disappointment. “Big picture” upheavals currently being tossed around on social media, like Zack Snyder being dismissed from Justice League or Mad Max’s George Miller being drafted to take his place (because he almost made a Justice League movie once) are not in the cards...

And while fanciful scenarios like Snyder “voluntarily” stepping down, ostensibly for some “personal” reason (perhaps with the studio agreeing to back one of his passion projects like the George Washington biopic or the remake of Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead if he doesn’t make a fuss) aren’t entirely outside the realm of possibility – at least in the sense that, hey, a tiny comet could also “wing” the Chrysler Building tomorrow – that still leaves the studio with a director’s chair that won’t be easy to fill. Blockbuster specialists with box-office records like Snyder’s continue to work largely because filmmakers who can handle huge-budget FX-driven ensembles with heavy studio involvement (“Studio Note: The Movie” feels like an appropriate alternate title for Dawn of Justice as it is) don’t grow on trees. Directors who can do that and would be willing/comfortable to take over a production someone else already oversaw all the way up to shooting? A very short list – and most names that will be on that list would likely turn even the biggest Zack Snyder detractor pale with horror.
posted by overglow at 3:18 PM on April 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Deadpool was Fox Studios, not Marvel Studios.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:37 PM on April 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


From the latest trailer I'm beginning to get the idea that I actually might end up liking this new Suicide Squad movie.

That probably means it's fucking doomed, right?
posted by Artw at 11:01 PM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


It looks like a perfectly ordinary superhero flick, likable but not lovable with its mishmash of previous tropes. It'll be very profitable.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:41 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


The first trailer for Suicide Squad seemed fun, this one seems aggressively generic.
posted by octothorpe at 4:59 AM on April 11, 2016


Technically this is the third trailer. The first one was the trailer that was super Will Smith-y. I liked it. You can see where they've added some humor, and it was nice to see some Joker.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:19 AM on April 11, 2016


Deadpool was Fox Studios, not Marvel Studios.

Yes, I know. That doesn't alter the point.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:22 AM on April 11, 2016


and it was nice to see some Joker

That Joker just isn't working for me. Yes, Heath defined the character, but the garish colors and look, along with the few words of dialogue, mark him as a cartoon, a creation, not an actual menace.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:44 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


That Screenrant article overglow linked to is as down-to-earth an overview as I've seen on the studio-system realities of WB learning its lessons from the Snyder Murderverse, especially in time to affect the already greenlit movies, much less those in production. Even still, I suspect there will be some unpleasant developments for fans, even after expectations are lowered. For instance, their prediction that "Patty Jenkins’ Wonder Woman movie may make it through unscathed – given that the character was a positively-received part of Dawn (not to mention the studio knows the flack they’d catch from scuttling the only woman-centric project on the docket)" seems already like wishful thinking.

Out on the PR tour treadmill, Gail Godot is managing expectations, telling the press that the 2017 Wonder Woman "has moments of humour, but it's pretty dark." As for Wonder Woman's character, forget the positive impression she made in BvS—in her origin movie, she's going to be "Very different to the experienced, super-confident, grown-up woman you've seen." Because, of course, audiences are clamouring to see a "naive" version of the superhero they already know, especially in the first female-led superhero movie from a major studio since Catwoman and Elektra.

It's like watching a cross between a ship of fools and a supertanker trying to turn away from oncoming rocks.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:21 AM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


But if audiences don't see her being naive and terrible at fighting, how can we believe she's experienced and good at fighting later?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:40 AM on April 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, I think the latest SS trailer is beating to death my like of putting old pop songs in trailers. Just cut it out, especially if the songs are not gonna be in the movie.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:48 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Now if there was a comic book movie that was wall to wall UK post glam rock and Leslie Gore hits, that I'd be in for.
posted by The Whelk at 7:58 AM on April 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Paging Kieron Gillen, Kieron Gillen to the blue courtesy phone.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:00 AM on April 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Now if there was a comic book movie that was wall to wall UK post glam rock and Leslie Gore hits, that I'd be in for.

Oooh, I too would love a movie of The Singles Club!
posted by Kitteh at 8:17 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]




That's a pretty terrible article if it contains lines like this: "Then DC released that ultra-dark Batman v Superman movie that no one liked. No one. It's even set to be less profitable than the equally bad Man of Steel."

That's juts an factually wrong and asinine statement (clearly some people liked the movie and it's been pretty clear that it make more than MoS. The rest of it reads like a writer jumped up on caffeine who's been suddenly handed an assignment related to pulling in more eyeballs and has five minutes to write it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:27 AM on April 11, 2016


"Less profitable", not lower box office. The costs of making and marketing BvS are much higher than MoS. I've seen financial projections suggesting it'll turn a profit of about $280m, compared with $300m for MoS.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:44 AM on April 11, 2016


My bad, thanks for the clarification and link.

As much as I loathe the movie, it's still hard to believe it'll be less profitable than MoS, which only had a production budget that was $25 million less (225M).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:04 PM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


With the trailer for Suicide Squad implying that Superman is currently dead, I have to appreciate the sheer Snyderness of calling him hope and then killing him off to start the franchise.
posted by Artw at 12:55 PM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Supes has to die so he can be resurrected at the end of Justice League 1, as apparently, the bad guy(s) in Justice League will be of the type that Supes would be pretty capable of dealing with in short time. Yup.
posted by Atreides at 1:11 PM on April 11, 2016


Still holding onto false hope that this will lead to a Reign of the Supermen big screen adaptation.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:55 PM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


No way in hell Snyder wouldn't prefer Cyborg Superman or The Eradicator to the real thing.
posted by Artw at 2:51 PM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe Shaq will dust off his Steel costume.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:09 PM on April 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


When DC brings back Shaq Steel, then Snyder will have my permission to high-five.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:44 PM on April 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


> In other superhero genre news, here's a few shots from the filming of Dr. Strange in New York.

Doctor Strange - Trailer World Premiere
posted by homunculus at 10:23 PM on April 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


100%

Early days yet.
posted by Artw at 7:46 PM on April 13, 2016


Comments from early screenings is that it's incredibly good.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:01 PM on April 13, 2016


“Zack Snyder Loves Superman, And 'Batman V Superman' Proves It,” Mark Hughes, Forbes, 29 March 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 9:08 PM on April 13, 2016


Early days yet.

It almost seems a little mean that reviews came out this early. I've been looking forward to seeing how this one goes down for a year, and my reflex reaction of "oh, the reviews are out, LET'S GET READY FOR FRIDAY" keeps firing.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:52 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Probably going to the cinema on Friday, because we have a rare free sitter, and am feeling it because new releases are pretty much a dead zone until Civil War.

(Oh well, I'm sure we'll find something foreign and artistic)
posted by Artw at 6:06 AM on April 14, 2016


Probably going to the cinema on Friday, because we have a rare free sitter, and am feeling it because new releases are pretty much a dead zone until Civil War.

I hear there's a movie out with Batman and Superman, maybe that?
posted by Elementary Penguin at 7:23 AM on April 14, 2016


Nah, the reviews said it wasn't very good
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:42 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Like, that's what the critics said, man.
posted by Atreides at 12:47 PM on April 14, 2016


Oh god.
posted by Artw at 7:48 PM on April 14, 2016


I don't even know how to respond to that, other than ugh.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:59 AM on April 15, 2016


The fuck. Jesus Christ, DC.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:38 AM on April 15, 2016


It makes me doubly sad that Conroy and Hamill are doing this. Ugh, fuck fuck fuck.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:38 AM on April 15, 2016


Can someone explain a little? I've never read that series but I had some idea that it was well thought of.
posted by octothorpe at 6:41 AM on April 15, 2016


Increasingly less so over time. It's very well drawn but as has Moore himself has admitted the story is mostly just cruelty without much aim. As for the R, it kind of implies that it's taking some creepy stuff that's maybe in the comic depending on how you read it and doubling down on it. Really not up for that at all.
posted by Artw at 6:48 AM on April 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can someone explain a little? I've never read that series but I had some idea that it was well thought of.

It's the one where they fridged Batgirl.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:00 AM on April 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


If what a friend is telling is true, she was fated to be fridged. There's a couple of other comics where Booster Gold comes back in time to save her, but can't, because FATE. Then Zatanna has precog dream about what's going to happen, but can't change it because FATE. So she gets together with Wonder Woman and they take Barbara out the next before, so she'll have a good time before being tortured and crippled.

Smooth moves there DC.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:04 AM on April 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


I thought Babs was Batgirl again in the latest continuity. (How many reboots have they had since CoIE now?)
posted by entropicamericana at 7:21 AM on April 15, 2016


Oh good grief, the last thing we need is an R-rated Killing Joke movie, but the suits at Warner Bros. clearly have decided that R-ratings are the way to go after Deadpool's success. (Who would have thought we'd live to see the day when a Deadpool movie was more uplifting, however perversely, than a Superman one?)

Meanwhile, they're contemplating releasing the extended R-rated cut of Murderman v Killman in the theaters instead of waiting of waiting for the Blu-Ray edition.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:31 AM on April 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


Then Zatanna has precog dream about what's going to happen, but can't change it because FATE. So she gets together with Wonder Woman and they take Barbara out the next before, so she'll have a good time before being tortured and crippled.

They specifically take her out dancing.

That particular issue was a J. Michael Straczynski joint, in case you were wondering.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:36 AM on April 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wikipedia: In a 2006 interview with Wizard magazine, Moore was also critical about his decision to cripple Barbara Gordon: "I asked DC if they had any problem with me crippling Barbara Gordon - who was Batgirl at the time - and if I remember, I spoke to Len Wein, who was our editor on the project ... [He] said, 'Yeah, okay, cripple the bitch.' It was probably one of the areas where they should've reined me in, but they didn't."
posted by Artw at 8:06 AM on April 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


I thought Babs was Batgirl again in the latest continuity.

She is currently. Microchip in her skull or something? But this is animation, so current continuity doesn't count.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:18 AM on April 15, 2016


The main positive thing to come out of The Killing Joke was the prominent representation of Barbara Gordon/Oracle as a disabled superhero. But even that took a while to come about, and AFAIK DC undid that recently in one of their umpteen universe reboots.

As dark and brutal as it was, it was not an R-rated comic. That they're making an R-rated animated movie out of it is deeply concerning.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:20 AM on April 15, 2016


It could come down to just how much they show/how long they linger over the photos. Or if they show Jim Gordon naked. I think I remember there was a little bit of penis in the art? I could be wrong about that.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:00 AM on April 15, 2016


True, but if Jim Gordon's penis is the hill they're willing to die on it doesn't exactly fill one with confidence for the rest of the movie.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:11 AM on April 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


I can't imagine that comic book in 1988 was showing old man penis.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:20 AM on April 15, 2016


It's subtle but there. From a distance and mostly in shadow. Can see it here (NSFW, spoilers)
posted by middleclasstool at 9:32 AM on April 15, 2016


Yassssssssss, peeeeeeeeeeeeeen in 1988!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:20 AM on April 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


“Zack Snyder Loves Superman, And 'Batman V Superman' Proves It,” Mark Hughes, Forbes, 29 March 2016

I think there's merit to this analysis, and that the film might actually have that ideal at its heart, the idea that Superman's optimism is what redeems Bruce Wayne from cynicism. I think the problem is that Snyder is too flawed and obsessed with sensationalist violence to convey it, and that's what turns a lot of people off.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:18 PM on April 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe? But the thing I get from Snyder's movies, the chief reason why his adaptations fail and why I made that "of course he's a Randian" snark upthread, is that what he really admires is power. That's why his Superman is unconcerned with collateral damage, why his Watchmen can punch through granite countertops, why in fact that whole adaptation was the exact opposite of what Alan Moore was trying to say.

Snyder appears to be impressed by power. He seems to value it above altruism and humility. That's why his Superman destroys a trucker's livelihood in Man of Steel. To Snyder it's about what the bad guy's got coming, something dangerously close to an "a good man with a gun" ethics.

As a side note, I'd like to register my lack of surprise that a defense of an objectivist's superhero movie would appear in Forbes.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:09 PM on April 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


BvS has suffered another 60% drop since last Friday, falling behind not only the premiere of "Barbershop: The Next Cut", but also the second week of "The Boss". Additionally, earlier this week, its audience score on Rotten Tomatoes dropped below 70% for the first time, plummeting from an initial high of 81%. Henry ("The money’s fantastic") Caville's defence that "fan response to Batman v Superman is more important than the reviews" is looking thinner and thinner.

All this raises an issue that is doubtless troubling Warner Bros.: "'Batman V Superman' Tops $300M, Or When A Big Hit Feels Like a Flop".
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:20 AM on April 16, 2016


Oh, the real pain for Warner doesn’t start for another 2–3 weeks, when they get to see just how much money they left on the table.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 9:59 AM on April 16, 2016


I still have no urge to see it, even at $5.25US Super Bargin Matinee, where even soda and popcorn at $2US.

Be verty interesting to see how Civil War does in comparison.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:16 AM on April 16, 2016


If what a friend is telling is true, she was fated to be fridged. There's a couple of other comics where Booster Gold comes back in time to save her, but can't, because FATE. Then Zatanna has precog dream about what's going to happen, but can't change it because FATE. So she gets together with Wonder Woman and they take Barbara out the next before, so she'll have a good time before being tortured and crippled.

Smooth moves there DC.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:04 AM on April 15


I haven't double-checked this, but I'm almost fully certain that chronologically the Killing Joke came first. All of the other issues are just later attempts at retroactive continuity.
posted by sardonyx at 10:17 AM on April 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


Okay, so here's what they should do: Let Snyder finish out his run, and then at the very end, the big reveal is that this whole time, we've been seeing one of the alternate Earths where the heroes are a little off: a little evil or a little wrong. They could push it to the point where the "heroes" start really going off the rails and then just before something especially bad happens, the genuine heroes come bursting in to save the day.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 3:02 PM on April 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


It really does feel like the early reviews for Civil War are a really shrewd move on the part of Disney/Marvel, capitalizing on the collapsing hype for BvS
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:09 PM on April 16, 2016


Revealing Snyderverse to be a DC world that's half Justice Lords, half Watchmen, would be a good way to wrap up that continuity.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:36 PM on April 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


Turned out 10 Cloverfield Lane was still playing, and we hadn't seen that, so phew, close call.
posted by Artw at 6:07 AM on April 17, 2016 [1 favorite]


Much better show, 10CL is an unexpected gem.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:39 AM on April 17, 2016


Speaking of retroactive continuity and the World's Finest team-up, if anybody ever wants a fun, deep-dive read into Super-Bat history, I heartily recommend picking up the back issue of World's Finest #271. It's written by the master of continuity repair, Roy Thomas (which I didn't realize until now, but oh that makes SO MUCH SENSE.) And no, I didn't have to look up that issue number. Apparently that's one of those things that is just burned into my brain for all eternity. I'm also guessing it's an issue that a certain movie maker has never ever read.
posted by sardonyx at 11:26 AM on April 17, 2016 [2 favorites]


Superman Only Has a Total of 43 Lines of Dialogue in Batman v Superman - and that's including such gems as "Lois, I have to go to Gotham to convince him to help me. Or he has to die...", "No one stays good in this world.", and "AHHHHHHHHHHGHHH!!" (Maybe he had more to say in the original epic three-hour cut.)

Meanwhile, the Motley Fool asks, 'Did "Batman v Superman" Doom the D.C. Universe Films?'
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:08 AM on April 18, 2016


It does appear to be exiting the top tier of the box office rather quickly.
posted by Artw at 10:18 AM on April 18, 2016


Its trajectory isn't really dissimilar from Age of Ultron, actually:

BvS:
1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th

AoU:
1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th

AoU had much more favorable drops, and also had stiffer competition (e.g. its third place finish was against Mad Max and Pitch Perfect, which combined or about 120 million - BvS's second place finish was against The Boss, which made 30 million). There's a lot to factor in there, namely release date (AoU got a May release, which is a lot sweeter than late March). If you compare it to Winter Soldier (opened pretty much the same time), then it looks a lot better both in raw numbers, and in week-to-week placing.

Still not as good as Warner would hope, I'd imagine, but not too bad given its peers in the genre.
posted by codacorolla at 12:33 PM on April 18, 2016


The problem with that: Winter Soldier was a solo film featuring a character that was pretty far down in international fame before the movies. SvB featured the two most famous superheroes in the world, including one that had two series of gigantic hit movies. It also featured the most famous female superhero, really the only one who can be said to be known worldwide, and cameos from a bunch more Justice League level types. WB most certainly expected far more from it; they no doubt expected at least Nolan Batman-level and hoped for Avengers-level.

And what they got is... not only not Avengers-level, not only not Batman-level, but domestically not even *Deadpool* level. There's surely knives out at WB these days.
posted by tavella at 12:47 PM on April 18, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not too bad at all, overall, but I think it will rank for a quite a while as a big under performer.



Week 1

AoU Week 1: $235,655,468

BvS Week 1: $209,072,793 ($-26,582,675)

Week 2

AoU Week2: $97,515,340

BvS Week 2: $64,177,749 ($-33,337,591)

Week 3

AoU Week 3: $49,999,671

BvS Week 3: $29,051,188 ($-20,948,483)

Week 4

AoU Week 4: $32,979,546

BvS Week 4: $9,010,000 ($-23,969,546)

Total Deficit: $104,838,295

Take into consideration that Age of Ultron wasn't the premiere group outing of all the heroes, but the second, and that Batman vs Superman was the first major cinematic pairing of DC's Trinity, and I think it's a disappointing result that it's left the equivalent of 1/10th of a billion dollars on the table. There's also the kind of humiliating factor of that WB/DC had originally intended to open the film in May on or around the same weekend as Cap 3, but moved it's release up to March to avoid that competition.

For good or bad, it will also be held up to whatever business Civil War does, which if the early reviews hold up, will be impressive - though also considering this is the third major outing of all of Marvel's heroes, not it's first.
posted by Atreides at 12:59 PM on April 18, 2016


Ah yes, Deadpool, the movie about a secondary character with gratuitous sex, violence and torture, that still managed, by near universal accounts, to be warmer and more uplifting that BvS.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:04 PM on April 18, 2016 [6 favorites]


We'll be saying that about Suicide Squad next.

No, we really will.
posted by Artw at 1:18 PM on April 18, 2016


There's something to be said about how both of those movies feature human criminals, not Olympian demigods. Come to think of it, a film from the perspective of Dismas the thief WOULD be cool.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:28 PM on April 18, 2016


(Maybe he had more to say in the original epic three-hour cut.)

My mistake - the original cut was FOUR hours. To quote Chris Rock on BvS, "What the fuck was that?"
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:42 AM on April 19, 2016


To be fair, four hours was the first cut, with everything. They trimmed that down to three hours.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:11 AM on April 19, 2016


Apparently Robin, prior to his deceasing, used a freakin' axe-like weapon.
posted by Atreides at 9:23 AM on April 19, 2016


well, that's on theme, obvs.
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on April 19, 2016


Also, both classic and modern Jason Todd would consider a spiked poleaxe "way more badass than that wussy stick Tim Drake uses."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:06 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Willem DaFoe - Martian Manhunter or the Question? My money's on The Question. Snyder will so completely not understand the role... wow. We're talking Sean Connery on Highlander 2 territory for poor Willem. Should be fun to watch.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:24 PM on April 19, 2016


Damien would use a sword, but that's him.
posted by Artw at 9:33 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


My money's on The Question. Snyder will so completely not understand the role...wow.

He will understand Ditko's vision for The Question perfectly. Unfortunately.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:33 PM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]


I like conspiracy theory, pop song humming, Huntress-love interest cartoon the Question best. I do not think Snyder will be able to realize that vision.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:20 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]


Which is a shame, because Dafoe could sell the HECK out of "The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called 'aglets'. Their true purpose is sinister."
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:46 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]




Will the dildo ships from Man of Steel be in it?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:29 PM on April 21, 2016


What focus group is responding, "YES, TELL US STORIES OF KRYPTON WHERE WE MIGHT SEE SUPERMAN'S DAD AND MOM AS CHILDREN." It's as if someone envisioned a Gotham-set show about Bruce Wayne's grandfather. "Tune in and meet Jim Gordon's dad!"

It just ends up being a tv show about people with a distant connection to an interesting character, who's only special powers are living in a caste system surrounded by a lot of technology with the occasional premonition of their planet's not so imminent destruction.
posted by Atreides at 8:02 AM on April 22, 2016


Well, Caprica was a hit.
posted by Artw at 8:03 AM on April 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


Caprica would have been a hit if it hadn't spent most of its time setting up the story to actually tell a story.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:39 AM on April 22, 2016


It's as if someone envisioned a Gotham-set show about Bruce Wayne's grandfather. "Tune in and meet Jim Gordon's dad!"

I mean, the actual Gotham show is only a little bit off from that premise, and it's in its third season or so...
posted by tobascodagama at 8:50 AM on April 22, 2016


I mean, the actual Gotham show is only a little bit off from that premise, and it's in its third season or so...

It actually has the players, tho'. Granted, 30 years younger.
posted by Atreides at 9:32 AM on April 22, 2016


I love the idea of putting together a weird science-fiction TV series set on another planet with no humans and no connection with Earth and getting a network to greenlight it by saying, "Well, it's Krypton, but before Superman or Supergirl were even born." But I don't really wanna see what David Goyer would do with it.
posted by straight at 9:48 AM on April 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


Make it gritty and grounded, obvs.
posted by Artw at 10:34 AM on April 22, 2016


« Older "A Discrimination Omnibus" in NC: LGBT rights...   |   Not much writing, oddly Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments