"Then I fell face-first on the ground."
April 6, 2016 9:49 PM Subscribe
All I can say is, she's a lot luckier than I was in terms of instructors and fellow students being willing willing to help when she asked and said she didn't understand something. To a man (and woman), all my instructors believed firmly in "Some people in the class understand it the way I presented it, so the rest of you should be able to, as well. Go away, kid, you bother me."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:19 PM on April 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:19 PM on April 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm trying to figure out why screaming I DON'T UNDERSTAND in public suddenly got her the miraculous results that it did. Because when I don't understand something multiple times over, I get the same kind of reaction her friend did: everyone gets super annoyed and exasperated at me, and I feel like a complete moron. Especially since really, it's only socially acceptable to say "I don't understand anything at all you just said" about twice before people start to get pissed off and I realize I'd better shut up, thank them and say I get it now, and move along. And these days I get, "You should know better by now!" if I need something explained yet again to boot. It's like, how much more can you dumb it down for the stupid dumb girl here?
I'm happy for her, but man, I just can't even imagine having this go well for me if I was this blatant about how much I didn't understand, over and over and over again.
So glad I never have to go through this crap in school again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:20 PM on April 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm happy for her, but man, I just can't even imagine having this go well for me if I was this blatant about how much I didn't understand, over and over and over again.
So glad I never have to go through this crap in school again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:20 PM on April 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is good. Failure is actually a really good way to learn. I think her saying—not screaming—"I don't understand" clearly and confidently got through to those around them because it triggered recognition of a problem to be solved. I see this among developers a lot. The first step is to figure out and explain specifically what part of the problem you don't understand, and break it down into knowable components. Just showing up and saying "omg idgi" or disappearing from class is unfortunately expected behavior for young women in the field. So just stating clearly that there is a problem transcends that. I see a lot of respect among developers for people who do the legwork to understand what they don't know and then are confident enough to press the point.
I remember labs in CS101 in college. They were so hard! But at least people were there to offer aid. Labs in Calc II were an entirely different story. I ended up taking Calc II again in the summer, when I could get more one-on-one interaction and assistance in a small class. When people are dedicated to learning and sharing knowledge, computer science's collaborative culture is awesome.
posted by limeonaire at 10:42 PM on April 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
I remember labs in CS101 in college. They were so hard! But at least people were there to offer aid. Labs in Calc II were an entirely different story. I ended up taking Calc II again in the summer, when I could get more one-on-one interaction and assistance in a small class. When people are dedicated to learning and sharing knowledge, computer science's collaborative culture is awesome.
posted by limeonaire at 10:42 PM on April 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry, do they not have things like college libraries and internet and wikipedia and FAQs and tutorials in her university? Because what I learned in computer science was to look for information myself, and it's not like there aren't books about basic concepts of computing out there.
Shouting "I DON'T UNDERSTAND" like a toddler instead of "I'm sorry, I don't really grasp [this concept], could you please explain it to me in a simpler way?" doesn't seem like the most productive thing, either.
posted by sukeban at 10:46 PM on April 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Shouting "I DON'T UNDERSTAND" like a toddler instead of "I'm sorry, I don't really grasp [this concept], could you please explain it to me in a simpler way?" doesn't seem like the most productive thing, either.
posted by sukeban at 10:46 PM on April 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think I've mentioned about a million times that I'm currently taking an Intro CS class at the university where I work. (I'm an adult, and I'm taking it essentially for fun.) I absolutely do not find that the prof or TAs are impatient or dismissive of people who struggle with concepts. They're really not. They're upbeat and encouraging and want to help. What I have found is that my TA isn't good at explaining concepts, I think because explaining really basic concepts is hard. So sometimes I feel like I'm better off googling things or looking for Khan Academy videos or just banging my head against every practice problem I can find until I can make the code work, not because I'm ashamed of my confusion but just because it seems more effective.
But yeah, I am really fighting my internal voice that says that if I were good at this, it would come automatically. I'm working really hard at stuff that seems like it should be easy if I were smart, and even though I'm doing really well, it doesn't always feel that affirming, because I'm working really hard to do well. I think this is actually a broader problem: the idea that fighting to learn something is a sign of being dumb, not being smart. But it's probably worse in computer science, because there does seem to be a fetish of natural genius in that field.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:50 PM on April 6, 2016 [28 favorites]
But yeah, I am really fighting my internal voice that says that if I were good at this, it would come automatically. I'm working really hard at stuff that seems like it should be easy if I were smart, and even though I'm doing really well, it doesn't always feel that affirming, because I'm working really hard to do well. I think this is actually a broader problem: the idea that fighting to learn something is a sign of being dumb, not being smart. But it's probably worse in computer science, because there does seem to be a fetish of natural genius in that field.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:50 PM on April 6, 2016 [28 favorites]
I feel as though we need to emphasize again and again and again, publicly and within software itself, that FAILURE is the norm and that it is indication that you are on the right track, not the wrong one, and without it you can never be successful.I've been a computer science professor for almost two decades. My reaction to this sentence was "Yes! Finally someone who actually gets it!"
posted by erniepan at 10:58 PM on April 6, 2016 [42 favorites]
What I have found is that my TA isn't good at explaining concepts, I think because explaining really basic concepts is hard.
And there's a world of difference between people (mostly men) who have been toying with computers since children and people (mostly women) who haven't touched a computer in their lives, so at introductory courses you have people who are comfortable with programming since childhood and people you have to explain what a loop or recursion is. But still, I find her attitude very offputting.
posted by sukeban at 11:00 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
And there's a world of difference between people (mostly men) who have been toying with computers since children and people (mostly women) who haven't touched a computer in their lives, so at introductory courses you have people who are comfortable with programming since childhood and people you have to explain what a loop or recursion is. But still, I find her attitude very offputting.
posted by sukeban at 11:00 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd like to know why this few comments in, she's characterized as screaming and shouting?
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:01 PM on April 6, 2016 [86 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:01 PM on April 6, 2016 [86 favorites]
Why is it necessary to characterize her means of asking for help as being like a toddler? She's relating an example in which her request for assistance was successful, so regardless of whether you think it's the most productive way of communicating, it worked for her. The purpose of a lab for classes like this is discussion and collaboration and, yes, asking for help if you need it.
posted by limeonaire at 11:02 PM on April 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 11:02 PM on April 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
Because that's how one reads ALLCAPS.
posted by pwnguin at 11:03 PM on April 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by pwnguin at 11:03 PM on April 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
Why is it necessary to characterize her means of asking for help as being like a toddler?
Because if you don't understand, the one with the problem is you, not the TA. You can ask for an explanation, you can ask for recommended introductory books, but just saying "I don't understand" in general does not help.
posted by sukeban at 11:07 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because if you don't understand, the one with the problem is you, not the TA. You can ask for an explanation, you can ask for recommended introductory books, but just saying "I don't understand" in general does not help.
posted by sukeban at 11:07 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you read the article, she explicitly says that she speaks loudly so the class, and the other woman afraid of admitting she doesn't understand, can hear. She represents this in all caps as a stylistic choice for emphasis.
At no point does she shout or yell or act in a way representative of a toddler.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:12 PM on April 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
At no point does she shout or yell or act in a way representative of a toddler.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:12 PM on April 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
And what on earth is wrong with "I don't understand."? It's direct and exactly to the point.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:13 PM on April 6, 2016 [49 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:13 PM on April 6, 2016 [49 favorites]
If you read the article, she explicitly says that she speaks loudly so the class, and the other woman afraid of admitting she doesn't understand, can hear. She represents this in all caps as a stylistic choice for emphasis.
At no point does she shout or yell or act in a way representative of a toddler.
Yeah, no, sorry. I don't know if it's because of different societal expectations, but if I had raised my had and said that (exactly that) in college, the answer would have been some version of "tough titties, look it up in the bibliography".
posted by sukeban at 11:15 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
At no point does she shout or yell or act in a way representative of a toddler.
Yeah, no, sorry. I don't know if it's because of different societal expectations, but if I had raised my had and said that (exactly that) in college, the answer would have been some version of "tough titties, look it up in the bibliography".
posted by sukeban at 11:15 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
sukeban, I think that's part of the point of this post, that the culture of computer science is changing (especially changing to be an environment where "tough titties" would be an entirely inappropriate response). The only reason the TA is there is to help. Maybe some people go to lab to demonstrate their already-perfect grasp of the material, but others go because it's required and they genuinely need help.
Anyway, again, people have different communication styles, as do various cultures, and the same approach doesn't work for everyone. In her case, she was coming from a level and a verbal communication style where she needed to have that discussion to understand. That means she learns a different way than you do, but it doesn't mean her approach is inferior or that she needs to take more initiative. For her, in that environment, it sounds like just speaking up was taking initiative.
posted by limeonaire at 11:18 PM on April 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Anyway, again, people have different communication styles, as do various cultures, and the same approach doesn't work for everyone. In her case, she was coming from a level and a verbal communication style where she needed to have that discussion to understand. That means she learns a different way than you do, but it doesn't mean her approach is inferior or that she needs to take more initiative. For her, in that environment, it sounds like just speaking up was taking initiative.
posted by limeonaire at 11:18 PM on April 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
And this the reason we don't have more women in STEM.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:18 PM on April 6, 2016 [67 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:18 PM on April 6, 2016 [67 favorites]
Which is not to say that I don't understand her frustration or I don't admire her perseverance, but you can't expect teachers at college level to stop everything and spoon-fed you while the rest of the class is twiddling their fingers. Go meet the teacher after class to ask questions and learn for yourself.
posted by sukeban at 11:19 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sukeban at 11:19 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lab is the place to ask those questions, which she did. Lab in U.S. computer science courses is usually a separate time period during which people can ask questions and sometimes complete specific assignments or take quizzes; it's not the same as the lecture.
posted by limeonaire at 11:22 PM on April 6, 2016 [39 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 11:22 PM on April 6, 2016 [39 favorites]
Maybe some people go to lab to demonstrate their already-perfect grasp of the material, but others go because it's required and they genuinely need help.
I finished computer engineering and lab practice was required and counted for a % of the evaluation. Different society.
And this the reason we don't have more women in STEM.
Last I looked, I was a cis woman. And I understand the knowledge differential between men and women in computing, because I've been there too. But she won't get far if she doesn't learn to get information for herself.
posted by sukeban at 11:23 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I finished computer engineering and lab practice was required and counted for a % of the evaluation. Different society.
And this the reason we don't have more women in STEM.
Last I looked, I was a cis woman. And I understand the knowledge differential between men and women in computing, because I've been there too. But she won't get far if she doesn't learn to get information for herself.
posted by sukeban at 11:23 PM on April 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I never went to school for the hodge lodge of computer development skills I've learned, but having worked with both techie people and non- there is a pressure in the professional world for many women to act like they understand, or at least hang back and not raise questions when they don't. So many IT professionals and developers alike talk down to people that don't "innately*" understand the topics and are treated with disdain. Being able to insist that they explain in a way that you understand is huge.
I often played translator for the women I worked with because as both a fellow woman and someone with a fairly diverse background in computers, I could give a good overview. Eventually I would play translator in meetings, or be the person to ask for a more detailed explanation. I knew enough of what the it and dev teams were doing that I would keep asking, especially if their answer was meant to be confusing. And it often was- male dominated l it and dev teams can be so hostile.
And they were smart, professional women, many with advanced degrees and experts in their fields. They just did not know the intimate details of someone else's job. But they were treated poorly if they tried to be direct about needing a further explanation. At the last job, that culture started to change. But yeah, being able to say "I don't understand" is penalized and and it's kind of ridiculous.
Incidentally, I never noticed that kind of hostility in meetings that were highly technical but didn't involve the developer or it teams. Supply chain logistics? Sure, you can say you don't understand there. Convoluted airfare and vacation pricing? That's okay too.
*have more experience, encouragement, and leisure time to learn it.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:32 PM on April 6, 2016 [19 favorites]
I often played translator for the women I worked with because as both a fellow woman and someone with a fairly diverse background in computers, I could give a good overview. Eventually I would play translator in meetings, or be the person to ask for a more detailed explanation. I knew enough of what the it and dev teams were doing that I would keep asking, especially if their answer was meant to be confusing. And it often was- male dominated l it and dev teams can be so hostile.
And they were smart, professional women, many with advanced degrees and experts in their fields. They just did not know the intimate details of someone else's job. But they were treated poorly if they tried to be direct about needing a further explanation. At the last job, that culture started to change. But yeah, being able to say "I don't understand" is penalized and and it's kind of ridiculous.
Incidentally, I never noticed that kind of hostility in meetings that were highly technical but didn't involve the developer or it teams. Supply chain logistics? Sure, you can say you don't understand there. Convoluted airfare and vacation pricing? That's okay too.
*have more experience, encouragement, and leisure time to learn it.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:32 PM on April 6, 2016 [19 favorites]
Our lab was also required and assignments and quizzes completed there counted as a percentage of our grade. It sounds like the difference is perhaps more cultural.
I get your perspective, sukeban—you made it in the field as a woman at an even more difficult time to do so, and it sounds like you became pretty self-sufficient out of necessity. I think the environment is becoming different now, though. I take pride myself in being able to find the answers I need in without bothering other members of the development team. I can see why it might annoy you, but I don't think the writer's more vocal, open-ended approach is wrong.
posted by limeonaire at 11:32 PM on April 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
I get your perspective, sukeban—you made it in the field as a woman at an even more difficult time to do so, and it sounds like you became pretty self-sufficient out of necessity. I think the environment is becoming different now, though. I take pride myself in being able to find the answers I need in without bothering other members of the development team. I can see why it might annoy you, but I don't think the writer's more vocal, open-ended approach is wrong.
posted by limeonaire at 11:32 PM on April 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
I admire her bravery in facing her vulnerabilities and having the courage to ask for help in class, and especially in a field where that plays right into a sexist trope, but I'm not sure it translates into the workplace where it is expected that one is able to come up with the answers oneself.
posted by walrus at 11:35 PM on April 6, 2016
posted by walrus at 11:35 PM on April 6, 2016
but I'm not sure it translates into the workplace where it is expected that one is able to come up with the answers oneself
This is a great story. A lot of our fears are imaginary and a lot of people struggle with being way too self conscious. It's a lesson everyone will learn later in life, ESPECIALLY in the workplace, where keeping quiet because you're afraid to reveal your incompetence is a disastrous thing, and it's great that she's teaching people this lesson earlier. Why would management expect people to come up with the answers themselves? We don't need or want people re-inventing the wheel. The first thing that you should do is ask - even if you think you know everything - "how was this done before, should I do it the same way, and in what ways can it be improved on since the last time it was done". Only if the answer is "it's never been done in the history of the company so figure it out yourself" then do you go and figure it out yourself, and rest assured they wouldn't have given you that task if they didn't think you could do it. When facing something new, people need to cooperate and work together, not try to look independent and strong and skilled.
Programming isn't easy and this is exactly the experience I saw when my predominantly female cohort at university took an optional programming class. I was at the time fairly familiar with programming (multiple languages and sql) and was far ahead of the class before I even took it, so I spent most of my time there tutoring and coaching my fellow classmates (which they repaid me in spades in some other classes).
posted by xdvesper at 11:49 PM on April 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is a great story. A lot of our fears are imaginary and a lot of people struggle with being way too self conscious. It's a lesson everyone will learn later in life, ESPECIALLY in the workplace, where keeping quiet because you're afraid to reveal your incompetence is a disastrous thing, and it's great that she's teaching people this lesson earlier. Why would management expect people to come up with the answers themselves? We don't need or want people re-inventing the wheel. The first thing that you should do is ask - even if you think you know everything - "how was this done before, should I do it the same way, and in what ways can it be improved on since the last time it was done". Only if the answer is "it's never been done in the history of the company so figure it out yourself" then do you go and figure it out yourself, and rest assured they wouldn't have given you that task if they didn't think you could do it. When facing something new, people need to cooperate and work together, not try to look independent and strong and skilled.
Programming isn't easy and this is exactly the experience I saw when my predominantly female cohort at university took an optional programming class. I was at the time fairly familiar with programming (multiple languages and sql) and was far ahead of the class before I even took it, so I spent most of my time there tutoring and coaching my fellow classmates (which they repaid me in spades in some other classes).
posted by xdvesper at 11:49 PM on April 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
But she won't get far if she doesn't learn to get information for herself.
I don't know. That doesn't seem to be the parable of her story. She specifically recounts how making it known that she didn't understand to the class what how she got the help she needed.
I "grew" up in the school of hard knocks internet culture and cut my teeth working at an ISP in the ninties. After working in networking and server administration, I went on to development and design. I rarely if ever asked for help, and you can be damn sure I would give a laundry list of what I tried first.
And it was a shitty system. Yup, I was able to hack it. I was also one of very few women in those early workplaces who did.
I don't expect women coming up behind me to do the same. I saw too many smart women struggling and ultimately drop off that career path because of those negative attitudes toward women who weren't able to grow up glued to their screens.
I'm not suggesting she or other women don't have a duty to put their own effort into learning, but we've got to lay off the idea that there is something wrong with asserting your need for help in a a learning environment.
Walrus, to your point- true to an extent? That is a double standard too- guys can say they don't understand something at work with less baggage than women can. I'm a figure it out on my own girl, but not everyone is and nor should they have to be.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:50 PM on April 6, 2016 [29 favorites]
I don't know. That doesn't seem to be the parable of her story. She specifically recounts how making it known that she didn't understand to the class what how she got the help she needed.
I "grew" up in the school of hard knocks internet culture and cut my teeth working at an ISP in the ninties. After working in networking and server administration, I went on to development and design. I rarely if ever asked for help, and you can be damn sure I would give a laundry list of what I tried first.
And it was a shitty system. Yup, I was able to hack it. I was also one of very few women in those early workplaces who did.
I don't expect women coming up behind me to do the same. I saw too many smart women struggling and ultimately drop off that career path because of those negative attitudes toward women who weren't able to grow up glued to their screens.
I'm not suggesting she or other women don't have a duty to put their own effort into learning, but we've got to lay off the idea that there is something wrong with asserting your need for help in a a learning environment.
Walrus, to your point- true to an extent? That is a double standard too- guys can say they don't understand something at work with less baggage than women can. I'm a figure it out on my own girl, but not everyone is and nor should they have to be.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:50 PM on April 6, 2016 [29 favorites]
> I admire her bravery in facing her vulnerabilities and having the courage to ask for help in class, and especially in a field where that plays right into a sexist trope, but I'm not sure it translates into the workplace where it is expected that one is able to come up with the answers oneself.
So far my experience as a male programmer is that this is not a true statement about programmer culture. Everyone asks each other for help constantly.
posted by value of information at 11:56 PM on April 6, 2016 [24 favorites]
So far my experience as a male programmer is that this is not a true statement about programmer culture. Everyone asks each other for help constantly.
posted by value of information at 11:56 PM on April 6, 2016 [24 favorites]
So many IT professionals and developers alike talk down to people that don't "innately*" understand the topics and are treated with disdain.
I've often said that people who have a natural talent for a subject, on the whole, tend to make pretty poor teachers of that subject. They have a hard time explaining things in ways their students can understand, because they don't know what it's like to not already understand them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:03 AM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
I've often said that people who have a natural talent for a subject, on the whole, tend to make pretty poor teachers of that subject. They have a hard time explaining things in ways their students can understand, because they don't know what it's like to not already understand them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:03 AM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
I was kinda wondering if there was a bit of White Knighting going on in the dynamic as her fellow students fell over themselves to help. Whatever made it happen, I'm glad it worked.
I'm back at uni these days and there's a comraderie and relief in tutorials when someone say,"Nup, still not getting it. Can you try again like I'm a three year old?"
Did it today, did it on Tuesday, and got a room full of "Amens!" and "Oh god, I thought it was just me/thank you for asking!" chorusing through the hallways of Sydney Uni.
posted by taff at 12:07 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm back at uni these days and there's a comraderie and relief in tutorials when someone say,"Nup, still not getting it. Can you try again like I'm a three year old?"
Did it today, did it on Tuesday, and got a room full of "Amens!" and "Oh god, I thought it was just me/thank you for asking!" chorusing through the hallways of Sydney Uni.
posted by taff at 12:07 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I don't know. That doesn't seem to be the parable of her story. She specifically recounts how making it known that she didn't understand to the class what how she got the help she needed.
Yes. It's just that there is a world of difference between "I don't understand [recursion]" and "I don't understand".
posted by sukeban at 12:11 AM on April 7, 2016
Yes. It's just that there is a world of difference between "I don't understand [recursion]" and "I don't understand".
posted by sukeban at 12:11 AM on April 7, 2016
I thought this was wonderful. I think it's a great example of the mindset prized by the scientists I look up to: in order to learn difficult things, you have to become extremely comfortable with looking and feeling stupid while you blunder around in the dark. It's so easy to think you understand something right until you have to apply it. And I think the difficulty of this is absolutely exacerbated by sexism in male dominated fields, where women feel so much extra pressure not to let their classmates see them sweat.
FWIW I would also love to teach a student like this. It would be one thing if she wasn't doing the work or was swanning in at the end of the semester without having done anything, but she worked hard on the assignments before coming to lab/office hours. A student who is so engaged and is so invested in actually understanding what's going on is so exciting to work with, compared to, e.g., someone who wants me to just do the homework for them and doesn't care about understanding, or who doesn't interact with the TA at all.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:13 AM on April 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
FWIW I would also love to teach a student like this. It would be one thing if she wasn't doing the work or was swanning in at the end of the semester without having done anything, but she worked hard on the assignments before coming to lab/office hours. A student who is so engaged and is so invested in actually understanding what's going on is so exciting to work with, compared to, e.g., someone who wants me to just do the homework for them and doesn't care about understanding, or who doesn't interact with the TA at all.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:13 AM on April 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Everyone asks each other for help constantly. - from my experience in digital agencies, some developers ask for help, some reach the boundary of their knowledge and if they can't get the answer from stack overflow, they sit there frozen and basically get nothing done because they're shy and/or used to being bullied and scapegoated, sometimes by other developers but more usually management and account handlers. As a project manager these are the people I'm constantly checking in with to make sure they keep moving, helping them start the conversations they need to have to ask for help, making time and space for them to pair program with people who know more about the thing they're stuck on, etc.
I realise this is not something most project managers do, at least from my experience - they're usually right in there blaming and scapegoating to beat the band, because isn't it great to have someone who isn't yourself to blame when things go wrong. It's endemic, and it would probably help if people weren't afraid to shout (yes, shout) "I don't understand" more often.
That being said, I'd be interested to know a bit more about the writer, her age, and how she presents herself, because if university is anything like I remember it, young/cool/attractive people get a lot more mileage out of asking for help than, say, the awkward and geeky kid with the wheeled backpack or the frumpy middle-aged non-traditional student. I'm not necessarily trying to imply that she played the pretty eyelash-fluttering damsel in distress, just that if she is "cool" or at least socially acceptable, people will tend to be relieved and want identify with her when she says "I don't understand". If she was not socially acceptable, people would cringe and try to distance themselves if she said the same thing, and lecturers, professors, and TAs would not generally be so quick to drop everything and help.
posted by cilantro at 12:21 AM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
I realise this is not something most project managers do, at least from my experience - they're usually right in there blaming and scapegoating to beat the band, because isn't it great to have someone who isn't yourself to blame when things go wrong. It's endemic, and it would probably help if people weren't afraid to shout (yes, shout) "I don't understand" more often.
That being said, I'd be interested to know a bit more about the writer, her age, and how she presents herself, because if university is anything like I remember it, young/cool/attractive people get a lot more mileage out of asking for help than, say, the awkward and geeky kid with the wheeled backpack or the frumpy middle-aged non-traditional student. I'm not necessarily trying to imply that she played the pretty eyelash-fluttering damsel in distress, just that if she is "cool" or at least socially acceptable, people will tend to be relieved and want identify with her when she says "I don't understand". If she was not socially acceptable, people would cringe and try to distance themselves if she said the same thing, and lecturers, professors, and TAs would not generally be so quick to drop everything and help.
posted by cilantro at 12:21 AM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
It's not like she was e-mailing her TAs at three in the morning and expecting a response before eight, though, or showing up unannounced at his desk with a ten-page list of questions. Asking the TA to explain things during a lab or office hours is well within their job responsibilities. If the TA in the story had dismissed her (or belittled her) I think he'd have deserved some pretty shitty teaching evals.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:43 AM on April 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 12:43 AM on April 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
In response to some of the responses to my post, firstly I should clarify that it has been over five years since I worked in software development, but that I speak from over 20 years experience in the industry, during most of which time I worked in management or as a lead designer or technical authority, predominantly in the defence industry which is probably at the most unforgiving end of the spectrum.
Firstly, from a management perspective, I agree that it is disastrous to keep quiet because one is afraid to reveal one's incompetence, but when it comes to choosing who to rely on within a project, those who were most often able to do some research, try some scenarios, and work out the problem independently would tend to be lower on the list of whose contract was not going to be renewed (or for permanent employees who was to be quietly moved into the test or customer support teams rather than trusted with more creative responsibility), because a negative training scenario makes it harder to meet deadlines, especially in a culture where underbidding, and estimating to support that narrative rather than get the work done properly is prevalent.
Specifically, if someone is taking up a lot of the teams time in getting support with their work when it is perceived that they could easily come up with the answer by taking a little more time to do some research and testing themselves, that's what I am referring to as a negative training scenario, because if something is taking up two or three people's time rather than one, then it is ultimately costing more. I'm not saying that considering someone's suitability on that basis is necessarily right or fair, but it is something I saw and experienced, and even ended up resorting to myself in order to meet very difficult deadlines.
I definitely agree on the point that there is a double standard where men can say they don't understand something at work with less baggage than women can, and that's the sexist trope that I was referring to in my post, although on the other hand I also saw an element of the "white knighting" (I hate that term) that taff refers to, where a lot of men within the industry would be far less dismissive of helping a female colleague than a male. I always saw that as somewhat balancing in terms of how difficult it is to overcome sexism within the industry, although perhaps ultimately undesirable in that ideally there should be no difference in how people are treated depending on their sex.
posted by walrus at 12:44 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Firstly, from a management perspective, I agree that it is disastrous to keep quiet because one is afraid to reveal one's incompetence, but when it comes to choosing who to rely on within a project, those who were most often able to do some research, try some scenarios, and work out the problem independently would tend to be lower on the list of whose contract was not going to be renewed (or for permanent employees who was to be quietly moved into the test or customer support teams rather than trusted with more creative responsibility), because a negative training scenario makes it harder to meet deadlines, especially in a culture where underbidding, and estimating to support that narrative rather than get the work done properly is prevalent.
Specifically, if someone is taking up a lot of the teams time in getting support with their work when it is perceived that they could easily come up with the answer by taking a little more time to do some research and testing themselves, that's what I am referring to as a negative training scenario, because if something is taking up two or three people's time rather than one, then it is ultimately costing more. I'm not saying that considering someone's suitability on that basis is necessarily right or fair, but it is something I saw and experienced, and even ended up resorting to myself in order to meet very difficult deadlines.
I definitely agree on the point that there is a double standard where men can say they don't understand something at work with less baggage than women can, and that's the sexist trope that I was referring to in my post, although on the other hand I also saw an element of the "white knighting" (I hate that term) that taff refers to, where a lot of men within the industry would be far less dismissive of helping a female colleague than a male. I always saw that as somewhat balancing in terms of how difficult it is to overcome sexism within the industry, although perhaps ultimately undesirable in that ideally there should be no difference in how people are treated depending on their sex.
posted by walrus at 12:44 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Another use of the term negative training scenario by the way refers to it consistently taking longer to explain something to a colleague than it would to do the work oneself.
posted by walrus at 12:51 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by walrus at 12:51 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
.there is a world of difference between "I don't understand [recursion]" and "I don't understand".
Ok, but when you are responding to a pretty specific context like, let's pretend, an ongoing conversation about a lab question saying " now implement the solution using recursion", people have an amazing ability to figure out what you are referring to so that the difference between those two phrases collapses. So perhaps you can stop imagining this as some kind of context-free pointless cry for help, as if she had walked up to you out in the world somewhere and begun a conversation by loudly saying "I don't understand".
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:23 AM on April 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
Ok, but when you are responding to a pretty specific context like, let's pretend, an ongoing conversation about a lab question saying " now implement the solution using recursion", people have an amazing ability to figure out what you are referring to so that the difference between those two phrases collapses. So perhaps you can stop imagining this as some kind of context-free pointless cry for help, as if she had walked up to you out in the world somewhere and begun a conversation by loudly saying "I don't understand".
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:23 AM on April 7, 2016 [33 favorites]
All fair points walrus. The defense industry is quite unforgiving. I think some other companies have the ability to pursue a different kind of culture. It sounds idealistic, but taking the time to independently research an answer is something that can be taught and isn't necessarily just an innate quality of a person's character. A company who makes the time to mentor and strengthen its employees should in theory have better outcomes than one who fires the under-performers and attempts to then buy talent at top dollar from headhunters. (see: stack ranking, etc). Or it might point to a failure of recruiting and HR management as well: someone that weak shouldn't have gotten past the interview stage, or if they did for an entry level position, shouldn't have been promoted upwards to the point they're unable to function as part of the team. All points in favor of organizations who can afford to predominantly hire graduates and promote internally.
posted by xdvesper at 1:23 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by xdvesper at 1:23 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I absolutely agree xdvesper, and I think in terms of long term cost, investing in one's employees pays off. The problem is where there is often an economically narrow focus on a project by project basis, rather than the ability to take that long view.
posted by walrus at 1:26 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by walrus at 1:26 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because if you don't understand, the one with the problem is you, not the TA.
I dunno. Sometimes it's the student, sometimes it's the TA. Sometimes the professor or the textbook has done a bad job explaining a concept. A lot of the time, it's not anyone's "fault" so much as a disconnect between the way something is being taught and the way a given learner learns. And focusing on "fault" is lazy pedagogy -- until you have fairly definite proof that the student isn't trying, it's the job of the professor it TA to try to explain a concept in different ways until all the students get it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:28 AM on April 7, 2016 [25 favorites]
I dunno. Sometimes it's the student, sometimes it's the TA. Sometimes the professor or the textbook has done a bad job explaining a concept. A lot of the time, it's not anyone's "fault" so much as a disconnect between the way something is being taught and the way a given learner learns. And focusing on "fault" is lazy pedagogy -- until you have fairly definite proof that the student isn't trying, it's the job of the professor it TA to try to explain a concept in different ways until all the students get it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:28 AM on April 7, 2016 [25 favorites]
Genji, in the line you cite its not the fault that lies with the student, its the problem. The problem being that its them that will fail their module assessment (and potentially not understand something they need for later learning) if they don't understand what the TA is trying to teach them. That might be the fault of the TA, it might even turn into a problem for the TA is there is a meaningful way to audit their teaching quality, but in the initial analysis its a problem for the student.
posted by biffa at 1:41 AM on April 7, 2016
posted by biffa at 1:41 AM on April 7, 2016
Because that's how one reads ALLCAPS.
except that none of the "I don't understand" statements in the article are in ALLCAPS. You are reading that into it. She does occasionally use ALLCAPS but its for emphasis of a few key words.
posted by mary8nne at 1:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
except that none of the "I don't understand" statements in the article are in ALLCAPS. You are reading that into it. She does occasionally use ALLCAPS but its for emphasis of a few key words.
posted by mary8nne at 1:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
As a TA (in a totally different subject in social science), it's very easy to believe this worked for her.
In my experience, the vast majority of students in big, low-level classes don't care and don't try. A lot don't go to lecture and no one goes to office hours. I suspect CS is a more rigorous because it's less likely to be taken as a n easy elective or general requirement, but you can get the same result if a lot students think they understand it well enough to pass without asking questions.
So when a student does come to me for help with a question that isn't 'what's on the midterm?', I'm really happy to help. If a student is clearly trying to understand the material, I don't mind re-explaining it a bunch of time and CS logic is something that can click when you hear it the right way.
posted by raeka at 2:09 AM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
In my experience, the vast majority of students in big, low-level classes don't care and don't try. A lot don't go to lecture and no one goes to office hours. I suspect CS is a more rigorous because it's less likely to be taken as a n easy elective or general requirement, but you can get the same result if a lot students think they understand it well enough to pass without asking questions.
So when a student does come to me for help with a question that isn't 'what's on the midterm?', I'm really happy to help. If a student is clearly trying to understand the material, I don't mind re-explaining it a bunch of time and CS logic is something that can click when you hear it the right way.
posted by raeka at 2:09 AM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
I wonder if part of the dynamic might be related to the fact that boys dominate the "I don't understand [this]" questions in junior high and high school, especially in math. By asking those questions and getting answers, many boys gain the confidence to keep asking questions when they don't understand, and they gain the specific knowledge they need in a discipline that's notoriously easy to get lost in if you miss even one key concept.
I think it was Peggy Orenstein in Schoolgirls who introduced me to this. Not all boys do this - it might be a minority of boys - but many more do it than girls.
There are people who say "I don't understand" who are trolling, who actually don't agree and are just looking for a way to argue with you, as many feminists who write on the Internet have pointed out, but it's pretty clear that she's not trolling in this case. She actually wants to understand.
posted by clawsoon at 2:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think it was Peggy Orenstein in Schoolgirls who introduced me to this. Not all boys do this - it might be a minority of boys - but many more do it than girls.
There are people who say "I don't understand" who are trolling, who actually don't agree and are just looking for a way to argue with you, as many feminists who write on the Internet have pointed out, but it's pretty clear that she's not trolling in this case. She actually wants to understand.
I strongly believe that the continued and constant emphasis in taking pride in failure is EXACTLY what women need to be exposed to in order to let down their walls and break through the well-known façade that ‘you need to be a genius to be a computer scientist’.Yeah, this, exactly. A lot of the important stuff I've learned in computing has come from "damn, I broke it, how do I fix it?", and then failing multiple times until I finally figure it out. The single thing that has been most helpful has been having the confidence from very early on - got it from my Dad, a mechanic - that I can fix anything technical, eventually. Simply having that confidence, and the persistence that results, is worth at least a few million extra neurons.
posted by clawsoon at 2:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Also: School is exactly the right place to ask for help. That's what you're paying those ridiculously high tuition fees for.
posted by clawsoon at 3:00 AM on April 7, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 3:00 AM on April 7, 2016 [35 favorites]
Students who do this are great to have in the room. To teach effectively I need a good understanding of what knowledge the students have and what concepts they're ready for. Inevitably, I'm going to make some mistakes in trying to track that in real time. When I have a few students who are willing to openly say "nope, don't get it" when one of my explanations misses the target, I find it much easier to adjust my teaching as the context requires. It's hard to be the first to admit to they don't understand something, and I don't expect it, but it's still great when I know I can rely on students to give me that feedback.
posted by langtonsant at 3:15 AM on April 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by langtonsant at 3:15 AM on April 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
I totally get this woman's experience. This is the way to trigger engineers! I've been doing some lecturing & TA'ing at a Rails bootcamp the last half year, and the students who are willing to assertively say that they don't understand while demonstrating readiness to keep working at understanding definitely get the most from me.
She should be aware that she will have to shift gears a little bit when she goes into a work situation -- because the roles change, so asking for help -- even assertively -- won't always get as positive a response. But it still pays much better dividends to assertively say when you find something difficult, or don't feel you are particularly great at some area than to adopt bro-confidence about everything, in my experience.
posted by lastobelus at 3:22 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
She should be aware that she will have to shift gears a little bit when she goes into a work situation -- because the roles change, so asking for help -- even assertively -- won't always get as positive a response. But it still pays much better dividends to assertively say when you find something difficult, or don't feel you are particularly great at some area than to adopt bro-confidence about everything, in my experience.
posted by lastobelus at 3:22 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The determination to read this article in the least charitable way possible is disappointing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:56 AM on April 7, 2016 [60 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:56 AM on April 7, 2016 [60 favorites]
I do this kind of thing at work in a very different field, and it is remarkable how often what is most helpful to everyone concerned is being very explicit that I don't understand, as long as I only do it when necessary (and while working as hard as I can). People have come up to me and thanked me afterwards. I am willing to bet that many more people than we suspect are working with about a third of the information they need and are making it up as they go along.
posted by Peach at 4:04 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Peach at 4:04 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
As a woman instructor in the field, I sometimes got evaluations when I was starting out like, "I know she understands this, but maybe she could explain it to the rest of us?" Because I was accustomed to the macho CS culture, I was afraid of talking down to my students by repeatedly explaining things that they already understood and being known as "that lady who thinks we're all in kindergarten."
posted by Ralston McTodd at 4:06 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Ralston McTodd at 4:06 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
In my experience, the vast majority of students in big, low-level classes don't care and don't try. A lot don't go to lecture and no one goes to office hours. I suspect CS is a more rigorous because it's less likely to be taken as a n easy elective or general requirement, but you can get the same result if a lot students think they understand it well enough to pass without asking questions.
This was my experience as a TA as well (also not in CS). In the courses I TAed, the only students who ever came to office hours were women -- the guys never came to office hours at all, except when they needed to request additional time for a late assignment. It was like a lot of the women had attended classes on "how to succeed in university" which included steps like going to office hours, getting to know professors and TAs, and so on, while the male students reminded me of myself in college, too full of confidence (or afraid to look stupid) to ever go to office hours.
Again, those were intro courses in a different discipline, and I am sure the gender dynamics are different. But as a TA I always welcomed people with the confidence to say in class, or privately in office hours, that they were not understanding the concepts as explained by the professor or myself, because one person saying so is usually an indication that a bunch of silent people are also confused.
Things may be different now, but when I was a TA we received zero training or information on pedagogy or teaching methods -- we were just handed a section of students and told to get on with it. Some TAs were naturally good or found information on pedagogy, a lot were like me and tried hard without ever quite knowing what to do, and I am sure some were absolutely terrible. It was total luck of the draw which the students were assigned to, even though it could be a major component in their success or failure in a gateway class.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
This was my experience as a TA as well (also not in CS). In the courses I TAed, the only students who ever came to office hours were women -- the guys never came to office hours at all, except when they needed to request additional time for a late assignment. It was like a lot of the women had attended classes on "how to succeed in university" which included steps like going to office hours, getting to know professors and TAs, and so on, while the male students reminded me of myself in college, too full of confidence (or afraid to look stupid) to ever go to office hours.
Again, those were intro courses in a different discipline, and I am sure the gender dynamics are different. But as a TA I always welcomed people with the confidence to say in class, or privately in office hours, that they were not understanding the concepts as explained by the professor or myself, because one person saying so is usually an indication that a bunch of silent people are also confused.
Things may be different now, but when I was a TA we received zero training or information on pedagogy or teaching methods -- we were just handed a section of students and told to get on with it. Some TAs were naturally good or found information on pedagogy, a lot were like me and tried hard without ever quite knowing what to do, and I am sure some were absolutely terrible. It was total luck of the draw which the students were assigned to, even though it could be a major component in their success or failure in a gateway class.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
When I dropped out of CS101 a few years ago during the Great Recession I got a note from the teacher asking me "why" as I "was doing very well and handling the assignments with ease." Found it quite considerate. :) (I was to be starting a job with a weekly commute to another state)
posted by tilde at 4:33 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tilde at 4:33 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, it would seem to me that school, which is exactly the place people go to learn stuff, would be the ideal setting to declare that you don't understand something. That way, you might be able to learn the fundamentals so that later, after you leave school and go into the workplace, you won't necessarily need to be asking these particular questions. I'm not sure I really get this argument that keeps cropping up that when she enters the workforce, she's going to have to figure out the answers herself. What in her writing indicates that, in the future, when she's no longer in school, she won't be able to figure those things out? Right now she's in school, trying to learn stuff. And if she's not learning from the book/lecture as presented, then school is the place to say that she doesn't understand in order to get it explained a different way.
Also part of figuring out answers is finding the resources (which can include other people) who have the answers you need.
posted by Hal Mumkin at 4:33 AM on April 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Also part of figuring out answers is finding the resources (which can include other people) who have the answers you need.
posted by Hal Mumkin at 4:33 AM on April 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Getting used to persevering despite feeling dumb is good preparation for grad school. At some point, nobody knows what the answer is (except, eventually, you).
The Importance of Stupidity in Scientific Research.
posted by anthill at 4:38 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
The Importance of Stupidity in Scientific Research.
posted by anthill at 4:38 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
A couple of things come immediately to mind.
First, CS101 is probably the course in undergrad that has the widest range of pre-existing ability among students. When you enroll as a freshman, you start with 101. Period. (Unless you're coming in with high AP scores, and the university has made accommodations for it, which is a very small percentage of students) This mean, in practice, that a CS101 lecture has in it a set of abilities ranging from "I once saw the CSI guys design a UI in Visual Basic to catch the bad guys" to "I have been programming my dad's old 68000 assembler since I could walk." I'm not aware of any other discipline in which the professor to an intro-level class has to be prepared to speak to such a wide disparity in experience, and I would imagine it gets worse as the classes get larger. It really is very possible that a professor in lecture isn't able to stop and hold one person's hand through some of the trickier parts.
The line that really struck me was this one, which has lost in the shuffle:
I feel as though we need to emphasize again and again and again, publicly and within software itself, that FAILURE is the norm and that it is indication that you are on the right track, not the wrong one, and without it you can never be successful.
100% right. When I try to explain what I do to other people (I'm a software developer), and people ask how I can do such {Byzantine/difficult/boring} things all day, I basically explain it as a mindset I acquired early: short of pouring your soda onto it, you can never break your computer badly enough that you have done permanent harm to it. I, a professional bit-twiddler, spend 80% of my day writing code that has errors in it that range from "crap, it's off by 1" to "oh, hell, this just crashed the machine so hard I have to restart it." Really, seriously, honest-to-god: computer science is predicated on repeated failures with iterative improvements between them. That's a philosophy that is totally at odds with the general pattern of thinking among students in university. If I hadn't entered college with it (from a lifetime of playing with Legos, and then learning how to do slightly-nefarious things to generic Windows installations, and scripting things for the video games I was playing, and then taking CS classes in high school), I'm pretty sure I would have bombed out the first time I had to work through something that I failed repeatedly at, because I was the type of student who breezed through high school without ever encountering significant failure. It's a totally foreign mindset to many students, and none of the learning tools in CS address this head-on.
posted by Mayor West at 5:20 AM on April 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
First, CS101 is probably the course in undergrad that has the widest range of pre-existing ability among students. When you enroll as a freshman, you start with 101. Period. (Unless you're coming in with high AP scores, and the university has made accommodations for it, which is a very small percentage of students) This mean, in practice, that a CS101 lecture has in it a set of abilities ranging from "I once saw the CSI guys design a UI in Visual Basic to catch the bad guys" to "I have been programming my dad's old 68000 assembler since I could walk." I'm not aware of any other discipline in which the professor to an intro-level class has to be prepared to speak to such a wide disparity in experience, and I would imagine it gets worse as the classes get larger. It really is very possible that a professor in lecture isn't able to stop and hold one person's hand through some of the trickier parts.
The line that really struck me was this one, which has lost in the shuffle:
I feel as though we need to emphasize again and again and again, publicly and within software itself, that FAILURE is the norm and that it is indication that you are on the right track, not the wrong one, and without it you can never be successful.
100% right. When I try to explain what I do to other people (I'm a software developer), and people ask how I can do such {Byzantine/difficult/boring} things all day, I basically explain it as a mindset I acquired early: short of pouring your soda onto it, you can never break your computer badly enough that you have done permanent harm to it. I, a professional bit-twiddler, spend 80% of my day writing code that has errors in it that range from "crap, it's off by 1" to "oh, hell, this just crashed the machine so hard I have to restart it." Really, seriously, honest-to-god: computer science is predicated on repeated failures with iterative improvements between them. That's a philosophy that is totally at odds with the general pattern of thinking among students in university. If I hadn't entered college with it (from a lifetime of playing with Legos, and then learning how to do slightly-nefarious things to generic Windows installations, and scripting things for the video games I was playing, and then taking CS classes in high school), I'm pretty sure I would have bombed out the first time I had to work through something that I failed repeatedly at, because I was the type of student who breezed through high school without ever encountering significant failure. It's a totally foreign mindset to many students, and none of the learning tools in CS address this head-on.
posted by Mayor West at 5:20 AM on April 7, 2016 [22 favorites]
At work, we deal with interns a lot. Interns ask A LOT of questions. All the time. Sometimes really basic ones. Sometimes even ones they should've already figured out the answer to, if they just thought about it for a few minutes before asking. I have my own work to do and sometimes it feels like I'm constantly getting interrupted to help someone with their problem instead. It gets frustrating at times.
Despite all of this, I would still rather have them ask me a question than sit around for days not knowing what to do and not figuring it out on their own. This woman gets it.
posted by chrominance at 5:31 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Despite all of this, I would still rather have them ask me a question than sit around for days not knowing what to do and not figuring it out on their own. This woman gets it.
posted by chrominance at 5:31 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I was one of the people who got things effortlessly in science and math. All the way up to upper level physics and math courses in college I pretty much never opened the book except for doing the problem set. I did it by having good teachers and speaking up pretty nearly every single time something didn't make sense to me.
And you know what? Other people in the class have thanked me for being the one to speak up and say "uhh, I don't get your explanation there"
Now on stuff that's harder for you, the good student version of this is to read stuff in advance first, write down your questions, and see if the lecture answers them, and ask if you still don't get it.
I mean books are really frustrating, because if I need to confirm that I'm doing things right, or have a simple question outside the course of how the author wants the conversation to go, it can take a couple hours and 3 or 4 different texts on the same subject to piece together what could be a simple yes or no question that takes half a minute when asked to a human being.
And if you're totally lost from the beginning, then maybe you're going to have to do a heck of a lot more work to catch up, or as honestly most people do past a certain point, just bullshit your way through the class by half baked understanding and pattern recognition.
I mean the whole point of having an actual person up there is that they are interactive and can answer questions and adapt. And you know what, having been a TA, I would way rather have someone ask a question that takes up time rather than be confused and lost the whole session. And if someone really needs help and it's going to take too much time to explain in class, I can ask them to come to office hours in a non-dismissive and constructive way that might actually get them to come and learn something.
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:47 AM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
And you know what? Other people in the class have thanked me for being the one to speak up and say "uhh, I don't get your explanation there"
Now on stuff that's harder for you, the good student version of this is to read stuff in advance first, write down your questions, and see if the lecture answers them, and ask if you still don't get it.
I mean books are really frustrating, because if I need to confirm that I'm doing things right, or have a simple question outside the course of how the author wants the conversation to go, it can take a couple hours and 3 or 4 different texts on the same subject to piece together what could be a simple yes or no question that takes half a minute when asked to a human being.
And if you're totally lost from the beginning, then maybe you're going to have to do a heck of a lot more work to catch up, or as honestly most people do past a certain point, just bullshit your way through the class by half baked understanding and pattern recognition.
I mean the whole point of having an actual person up there is that they are interactive and can answer questions and adapt. And you know what, having been a TA, I would way rather have someone ask a question that takes up time rather than be confused and lost the whole session. And if someone really needs help and it's going to take too much time to explain in class, I can ask them to come to office hours in a non-dismissive and constructive way that might actually get them to come and learn something.
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:47 AM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
This mean, in practice, that a CS101 lecture has in it a set of abilities ranging from "I once saw the CSI guys design a UI in Visual Basic to catch the bad guys" to "I have been programming my dad's old 68000 assembler since I could walk." I'm not aware of any other discipline in which the professor to an intro-level class has to be prepared to speak to such a wide disparity in experience, and I would imagine it gets worse as the classes get larger. It really is very possible that a professor in lecture isn't able to stop and hold one person's hand through some of the trickier parts.I actually think there's an increasing trend towards dividing the Intro class. We have two intro classes: one for majors, for which it's recommended you have some coding experience, and one for non-majors and potential majors who want a soft intro, which is suitable for true beginners. The hope, I think, is that some people will take the non-majors one and then decide to be majors and take a summer course or two to catch up. One problem that we have, though, is that a lot of not-beginners end up in the beginners course, which detracts from the beginner-friendly atmosphere a bit. (I may actually fall into that category. I think I underestimated how much previous background I had, just from bashing around with Python a little bit on my own. There is no way that I would have had the confidence to sign up for the major-level course, and I suspect this may be an issue in general for women. I'd be curious to see if the average grade in the beginner class is higher for women just because more women are underestimating their initial abilities.)
I have to say that my sense is that faculty in the CS department really, really want to be friendly and welcoming and increase access to all kinds of underrepresented people, or just to people who are not geniuses but are capable of doing the work. I think that my TA is not a natural teacher, but he is a super, super nice guy who never makes anyone feel dumb for asking questions or not understanding something. If there's a problem, I think it may come from other students, rather than from the faculty or TAs, who seem totally enthusiastic about helping anyone who is willing to work to understand the material.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:48 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm not aware of any other discipline in which the professor to an intro-level class has to be prepared to speak to such a wide disparity in experience
Exactly this. I'm just finishing up an IS101 course right now (like a poster upthread, I'm a university employee, I take classes for funsies but I'm hoping to continue with some more basic IS/CS courses for my own professional development) and my god. What a disaster area that course is. It wildly pings back and forth between the most basic basic basic concepts such as "this is an Excel spreadsheet" and more advanced ideas like last night's 15 minutes spent talking about half-adders, in which the terms "logic gate" and "truth table" were used without definitions being given. It's astonishingly terrible course design (I'm an instructional technologist and instructional designer so my antennae are always up).
The next course in the IS sequence is Introduction to Object-Oriented Programming (using Java). I feel just as unprepared to take it now as I did in January. The 101 course accomplished nothing. And I'm terrified because I'm 41 years old, was the consummate Humanities major in undergrad, and no, I did not grow up programming computers. I'd like to learn how to do it now, but I'm very scared that I'm going to walk into a course full of baby coders who've been doing this since they were in diapers, even though the course description says it's for people with no previous programming experience.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Exactly this. I'm just finishing up an IS101 course right now (like a poster upthread, I'm a university employee, I take classes for funsies but I'm hoping to continue with some more basic IS/CS courses for my own professional development) and my god. What a disaster area that course is. It wildly pings back and forth between the most basic basic basic concepts such as "this is an Excel spreadsheet" and more advanced ideas like last night's 15 minutes spent talking about half-adders, in which the terms "logic gate" and "truth table" were used without definitions being given. It's astonishingly terrible course design (I'm an instructional technologist and instructional designer so my antennae are always up).
The next course in the IS sequence is Introduction to Object-Oriented Programming (using Java). I feel just as unprepared to take it now as I did in January. The 101 course accomplished nothing. And I'm terrified because I'm 41 years old, was the consummate Humanities major in undergrad, and no, I did not grow up programming computers. I'd like to learn how to do it now, but I'm very scared that I'm going to walk into a course full of baby coders who've been doing this since they were in diapers, even though the course description says it's for people with no previous programming experience.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:54 AM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I took CS 101 in the mid-nineties at a large state-related school and the professor told me outright that it was designed to be unfriendly. It was during the dot-com boom and everyone wanted to be in CS and the department only wanted "serious" students so they purposely made the class as scary as possible. They started out with object oriented design in C++ in the first class period and had the first assignment due within a week. The second assignment was to write an assembly language interpreter for a fictional CPU architecture in C++ and then write a program in that new invented language that would solve the teacher's math problem.
I went to the professor after being given that second assignment and said that I could probably handle it because I'd been coding off and on for two decades but it seemed a little extreme for an early assignment in "Intro to CS" and he said that they wanted it to be due before the end of the time when students could drop the class without penalty. And sure enough, the class was half as big by mid-semester.
I have no idea what university CS classes are like now but my experience was that they are not really interested in helping anyone who's not already up to speed going in and are perfectly happy if you drop instead of slowing things down by asking for help.
posted by octothorpe at 6:13 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I went to the professor after being given that second assignment and said that I could probably handle it because I'd been coding off and on for two decades but it seemed a little extreme for an early assignment in "Intro to CS" and he said that they wanted it to be due before the end of the time when students could drop the class without penalty. And sure enough, the class was half as big by mid-semester.
I have no idea what university CS classes are like now but my experience was that they are not really interested in helping anyone who's not already up to speed going in and are perfectly happy if you drop instead of slowing things down by asking for help.
posted by octothorpe at 6:13 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would assign this article for my students to read only most of them wouldn't bother to do it. And, in part, they'd be right, because the lesson she learned isn't teachable by reading. I tell my classes that they get credit for participation and that part of participation is saying they don't understand what I said for the past 10 minutes. And when people do say that, I go back over everything, checking that the questioner follows so far at each point.
But people still don't want to ask questions. It's "fear of public speaking." They rather fail than speak up in public.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:34 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
But people still don't want to ask questions. It's "fear of public speaking." They rather fail than speak up in public.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:34 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
" Why would management expect people to come up with the answers themselves?"
"I'm busy, I don't have time to hold your hand on this. Can't you try to figure it out yourself?" Or as I mentioned in another thread, it can take days to get help on some things when you need help from someone super busy.
"when it comes to choosing who to rely on within a project, those who were most often able to do some research, try some scenarios, and work out the problem independently would tend to be lower on the list of whose contract was not going to be renewed "
Yeah, that.
I think what it boils down to is, are you in a supportive and kind enough environment to be able to say repeatedly that you don't understand and need help without penalty? Are you in an environment that can afford for you to be stupid for long periods of time? Is it socially and financially acceptable to be publicly stupid and not understanding? And do you have instructors who don't get frustrated when you keep on asking? Not all spaces are safe for that.
I have coworkers who uh....have had repeated problems in dealing with more technical stuff that I trained them on and while I'd rather they ask me and I'm nice about it, I'll admit in my head sometimes I am all, "You've been doing this for three years!" But I also know what it's like to be dumb at something everyone else is good at, so.
You know what? Someone at my office offered to get me programming training and I said yes. I haven't done programming since (a) BASIC in the 1980's and (b) a programming class I took in college where the professor basically did all of the work for us. I don't know if it'll actually happen or not (it will probably be nigh impossible given how we're becoming more short staffed next month and I already kinda can't afford to leave the office for training), but this thread is making me very nervous about trying this again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:04 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I'm busy, I don't have time to hold your hand on this. Can't you try to figure it out yourself?" Or as I mentioned in another thread, it can take days to get help on some things when you need help from someone super busy.
"when it comes to choosing who to rely on within a project, those who were most often able to do some research, try some scenarios, and work out the problem independently would tend to be lower on the list of whose contract was not going to be renewed "
Yeah, that.
I think what it boils down to is, are you in a supportive and kind enough environment to be able to say repeatedly that you don't understand and need help without penalty? Are you in an environment that can afford for you to be stupid for long periods of time? Is it socially and financially acceptable to be publicly stupid and not understanding? And do you have instructors who don't get frustrated when you keep on asking? Not all spaces are safe for that.
I have coworkers who uh....have had repeated problems in dealing with more technical stuff that I trained them on and while I'd rather they ask me and I'm nice about it, I'll admit in my head sometimes I am all, "You've been doing this for three years!" But I also know what it's like to be dumb at something everyone else is good at, so.
You know what? Someone at my office offered to get me programming training and I said yes. I haven't done programming since (a) BASIC in the 1980's and (b) a programming class I took in college where the professor basically did all of the work for us. I don't know if it'll actually happen or not (it will probably be nigh impossible given how we're becoming more short staffed next month and I already kinda can't afford to leave the office for training), but this thread is making me very nervous about trying this again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:04 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of the interesting (and annoying and predictable) things about the comments was all the dudes who chimed in to explain to her that this really isn't about gender, because men also have trouble asking for help and admitting that they don't understand things. And while those dudes are so very, very tedious, I actually think there's sort of something to that, although the dynamics are really different. I think that in general, men are more likely to be socialized to believe that asking for help is a sign of weakness. In this particular instance, though, women have a specific barrier to admitting that they are confused, which has to do with reinforcing stereotypes about women not being good at computer science. Women may actually be more conscious of being hesitant to ask for help in this setting, because they're more willing to do it in other ones.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:24 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:24 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, I teach high school in Computer Science. Big push for women in tech is important to me and all that.
I have a very polite sophomore in a class. Wonderful kid. The kind of kid that makes me say to myself, "Maybe I should have children of my own someday after all." But I don't think writing code is her thing. She's book-smart. She can test well, and memorize, and use study guides to her advantage. She can see basic errors in other people's code. But when we go to the higher end of Bloom's Taxonomy, when we move to "write a program that does this", the inevitable response of "I don't get it" will come from her table at some point. If it doesn't happen during class, it will happen after school, as I'm hanging out almost every day after the bell.
It's really tough trying to figure out how far I can go without moving from "Leading the horse to water" into "Spoon-feeding the horse". She's thinking of coming back for AP Computer Science, and the litmus test will inevitably be her summer homework for that course; because if she can't handle that on her own, she probably doesn't have the requisite skill set to succeed on the AP exam.
I deeply, deeply respect, that the author has gotten over her fear to ask questions. But I'm concerned that if she doesn't develop the ability to synthesize new material on her own in this subject, she's eventually going to find that she has a degree in a field in which she will be unemployable.
I also deeply respect that the author recognizes the importance in learning from failure. Too many students run away from this, because failure just is not allowed in so many other learning areas and so my students are often indoctrinated with the fear of failure before they get to me. I just... I just worry that sometimes her definition of failure is not happening in a way that will let her be successful in the long-term.
But as also I tell my own kiddo from the top of this, I would be 100% happy with being proven wrong.
posted by parliboy at 7:30 AM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have a very polite sophomore in a class. Wonderful kid. The kind of kid that makes me say to myself, "Maybe I should have children of my own someday after all." But I don't think writing code is her thing. She's book-smart. She can test well, and memorize, and use study guides to her advantage. She can see basic errors in other people's code. But when we go to the higher end of Bloom's Taxonomy, when we move to "write a program that does this", the inevitable response of "I don't get it" will come from her table at some point. If it doesn't happen during class, it will happen after school, as I'm hanging out almost every day after the bell.
It's really tough trying to figure out how far I can go without moving from "Leading the horse to water" into "Spoon-feeding the horse". She's thinking of coming back for AP Computer Science, and the litmus test will inevitably be her summer homework for that course; because if she can't handle that on her own, she probably doesn't have the requisite skill set to succeed on the AP exam.
I deeply, deeply respect, that the author has gotten over her fear to ask questions. But I'm concerned that if she doesn't develop the ability to synthesize new material on her own in this subject, she's eventually going to find that she has a degree in a field in which she will be unemployable.
I also deeply respect that the author recognizes the importance in learning from failure. Too many students run away from this, because failure just is not allowed in so many other learning areas and so my students are often indoctrinated with the fear of failure before they get to me. I just... I just worry that sometimes her definition of failure is not happening in a way that will let her be successful in the long-term.
But as also I tell my own kiddo from the top of this, I would be 100% happy with being proven wrong.
posted by parliboy at 7:30 AM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
The determination to read this article in the least charitable way possible is disappointing.
I sometimes wish people could be more explicit about which comments they are disagreeing with rather than doing these passive-aggressive generalisations, because whilst that was definitely not the intention in my contribution, but rather that I wanted to sound a note of caution that what works in academia may not necessarily always be taken the same way in the corporate world, especially given that sexism does exist and will be something people encounter, I realise that my comments might be able to be taken that way, and if I thought that had happened it would give me some regret for bothering to share my experience in the first place.
posted by walrus at 7:33 AM on April 7, 2016
I sometimes wish people could be more explicit about which comments they are disagreeing with rather than doing these passive-aggressive generalisations, because whilst that was definitely not the intention in my contribution, but rather that I wanted to sound a note of caution that what works in academia may not necessarily always be taken the same way in the corporate world, especially given that sexism does exist and will be something people encounter, I realise that my comments might be able to be taken that way, and if I thought that had happened it would give me some regret for bothering to share my experience in the first place.
posted by walrus at 7:33 AM on April 7, 2016
I'm trying to figure out why screaming I DON'T UNDERSTAND in public suddenly got her the miraculous results that it did.
Based on some of my own personal biases that I'm constantly trying to weed out and get better about; I think a lot of it has to do with power dynamics. A lot of times I hear "I don't understand" as "I'm not listening or working hard enough", because well, I just explained it to you! How do you not get it!?
This changes if the person asks with confidence (whatever that even means) or displays some progress. I start viewing the questioner as an equal and I get less frustrated with helping them. It becomes a project we're working on together.
And then you add in gender politics and power dynamics on it and it just gets worse for women. When a man is asking a question he is assumed to have more knowledge and understanding so his question has more validity. They have the confidence and the privilege to be able to say "I don't understand this, stop until I understand."
It's pretty evident in this very thread. How many people assumed that she was "playing up being dumb" or "being the dumb blonde" to get help? Using her feminine weakness to get help. There was some minor framing around this by the author herself in the title*, but the actual article mentions none of those things. The entire piece was about her asserting herself into her learning environment and taking an active and powerful role and getting over the fear of failure. It was about how she discovered this amazing super power of asking questions and making her university that she's paying to teach her, actually teach her.
*The way we interpret the title itself is problematic: Imagine if this article was titled "Being a dumb guy in computer science"
posted by mayonnaises at 7:34 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Based on some of my own personal biases that I'm constantly trying to weed out and get better about; I think a lot of it has to do with power dynamics. A lot of times I hear "I don't understand" as "I'm not listening or working hard enough", because well, I just explained it to you! How do you not get it!?
This changes if the person asks with confidence (whatever that even means) or displays some progress. I start viewing the questioner as an equal and I get less frustrated with helping them. It becomes a project we're working on together.
And then you add in gender politics and power dynamics on it and it just gets worse for women. When a man is asking a question he is assumed to have more knowledge and understanding so his question has more validity. They have the confidence and the privilege to be able to say "I don't understand this, stop until I understand."
It's pretty evident in this very thread. How many people assumed that she was "playing up being dumb" or "being the dumb blonde" to get help? Using her feminine weakness to get help. There was some minor framing around this by the author herself in the title*, but the actual article mentions none of those things. The entire piece was about her asserting herself into her learning environment and taking an active and powerful role and getting over the fear of failure. It was about how she discovered this amazing super power of asking questions and making her university that she's paying to teach her, actually teach her.
*The way we interpret the title itself is problematic: Imagine if this article was titled "Being a dumb guy in computer science"
posted by mayonnaises at 7:34 AM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I was in chemistry, and the profs tried very hard to convince people to ask questions in class. I remember one in particular, after a test where two people got in the A/A- range (>80%) and most of everyone else failed, and no one else got above a C+. That actually was pretty effective at getting people to ask questions (and luckily we didn't have That Guy, who would study ahead to ask the "brilliant" questions).
But even then, it was considered that people who understood [whatever] effortlessly were the only smart people, which was a hugely toxic atmosphere for everyone and took a while to get past. Yes, understanding easily and quickly is part of intelligence, and it isn't enough.
posted by jeather at 7:44 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
But even then, it was considered that people who understood [whatever] effortlessly were the only smart people, which was a hugely toxic atmosphere for everyone and took a while to get past. Yes, understanding easily and quickly is part of intelligence, and it isn't enough.
posted by jeather at 7:44 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing about writing programs - you are actively creating things that are in direct opposition with all your previous experience on the planet. Plus, when you start out you are using a language that bears a striking similarity to things you've seen before, but you have to process it through tools that are notoriously unforgiving and you are probably being forced to used tools of baffling complexity that you've never seen before.
This is a hell of a learning curve. And what's worse, in many CS programs most of those things change every semester. "Oh - you started in Java - how nice for you. We're using Scheme1." and so on.
I had the good fortune of going to a school that had a young CS program (I was the 6th declared major) at a time when a lot of the students had experience all over the map. We were in this program as majors because we loved the material and each of us at some point had had the experience of creating something that previously had been only imagination and was now reality. And we loved that so much that in the CS lab, we actively helped people who were stuck or trying to get past a stumbling block because we have all been there at some point and we knew that there was this huge reward waiting for you afterwards.
We formed a majors committee. We set up the Foo Bar and Grill snack bar. We set up formal hours for tutoring. We had worked as graders for the professors. I had a student I was grading for who needed help. Her work showed it and I know how I would feel getting grades like that when you're totally lost, so I took the time to try to help her get past her stumbling block: not understanding the compiler errors. I was not the only grader who did this. Above all we wanted everyone to succeed and to share our love of coding.
Tasks in software often violate the laws of reality to which we are accustomed. Mistakes in software more so. It's nice to know that someone's got your back.
1As a student, I was repelled by Scheme. I hated that there was such a barrier between me and what was actually happening because I had grown up using systems where cycles mattered. I could go on a rant (I just deleted one), but like all languages, it has something to offer, and unlike many languages, it has endured because of its strengths.
posted by plinth at 7:59 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is a hell of a learning curve. And what's worse, in many CS programs most of those things change every semester. "Oh - you started in Java - how nice for you. We're using Scheme1." and so on.
I had the good fortune of going to a school that had a young CS program (I was the 6th declared major) at a time when a lot of the students had experience all over the map. We were in this program as majors because we loved the material and each of us at some point had had the experience of creating something that previously had been only imagination and was now reality. And we loved that so much that in the CS lab, we actively helped people who were stuck or trying to get past a stumbling block because we have all been there at some point and we knew that there was this huge reward waiting for you afterwards.
We formed a majors committee. We set up the Foo Bar and Grill snack bar. We set up formal hours for tutoring. We had worked as graders for the professors. I had a student I was grading for who needed help. Her work showed it and I know how I would feel getting grades like that when you're totally lost, so I took the time to try to help her get past her stumbling block: not understanding the compiler errors. I was not the only grader who did this. Above all we wanted everyone to succeed and to share our love of coding.
Tasks in software often violate the laws of reality to which we are accustomed. Mistakes in software more so. It's nice to know that someone's got your back.
1As a student, I was repelled by Scheme. I hated that there was such a barrier between me and what was actually happening because I had grown up using systems where cycles mattered. I could go on a rant (I just deleted one), but like all languages, it has something to offer, and unlike many languages, it has endured because of its strengths.
posted by plinth at 7:59 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Scheme! My school used Scheme in part because no one knew it. It allowed them to break down bad habits some students had already learned and let students with less experience start on closer to equal footing.
I actually ended up doing very well in 6.001 (which is basically CS101), although I didn't necessarily realize I was doing well at the time, in large part because I did all of my work in the computer lab. Yes, I could have taken the work home to my dorm and been far more comfortable, but being in the lab instead put help nearby and focused me on the work. It was a really good experience for me, despite having to walk half a mile across campus at 4 AM to go to bed. I defintely pulled at least one real all nighter in that dinghy lab. Man, memories.
posted by maryr at 8:09 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I actually ended up doing very well in 6.001 (which is basically CS101), although I didn't necessarily realize I was doing well at the time, in large part because I did all of my work in the computer lab. Yes, I could have taken the work home to my dorm and been far more comfortable, but being in the lab instead put help nearby and focused me on the work. It was a really good experience for me, despite having to walk half a mile across campus at 4 AM to go to bed. I defintely pulled at least one real all nighter in that dinghy lab. Man, memories.
posted by maryr at 8:09 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
And what on earth is wrong with "I don't understand."? It's direct and exactly to the point.
I agree. In my experience, students who don't understand because they're not doing the work at all don't say this. They generally say something like it's impossible or it's unfair to expect them to understand a crucial concept, because of reasons. You still have to try and help them, because that's your job and sometimes they're not doing the work for a rather good reason that has nothing to go with academics, but that's not what was going on here.
Like other teachers in this thread, I love it when a student is willing to say 'I don't understand.' Because that's courage - and when one student says it, the class suddenly breathes easier and become easier for others to speak up. And there are always others. I've never had a class - and I've taught classes from high school to 1st year large 100-level university lectures to graduate classes - where it's only been that one student who didn't understand: there's always someone else who didn't feel they can speak up. So, good for her. And if you've ever sat in a class wondering if you should ask a question, the answer is yes. Unless the question is 'is this on the exam?' That goes double if the instructor has just told you not to ask if this is on the exam...
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:30 AM on April 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I agree. In my experience, students who don't understand because they're not doing the work at all don't say this. They generally say something like it's impossible or it's unfair to expect them to understand a crucial concept, because of reasons. You still have to try and help them, because that's your job and sometimes they're not doing the work for a rather good reason that has nothing to go with academics, but that's not what was going on here.
Like other teachers in this thread, I love it when a student is willing to say 'I don't understand.' Because that's courage - and when one student says it, the class suddenly breathes easier and become easier for others to speak up. And there are always others. I've never had a class - and I've taught classes from high school to 1st year large 100-level university lectures to graduate classes - where it's only been that one student who didn't understand: there's always someone else who didn't feel they can speak up. So, good for her. And if you've ever sat in a class wondering if you should ask a question, the answer is yes. Unless the question is 'is this on the exam?' That goes double if the instructor has just told you not to ask if this is on the exam...
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:30 AM on April 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I wonder if her success in getting help from her fellow students is at least partially routed in her field of study. Computer Science students are (in my observation) generally hardwired to view the world with a problem/solution mentality. Whereas declaring that you don't comprehend the material might not be as successful in a Literature or History course, her lack of understanding was a dilemma her fellow CS students could "solve".
posted by dances with hamsters at 8:47 AM on April 7, 2016
posted by dances with hamsters at 8:47 AM on April 7, 2016
Holy shit.
I read the comments in this thread before reading the article. I thought that the article would be very different based on some of the criticisms aimed at her--that she would be asking for an unnecessary level of basic help instead of doing the work on her own, that she would be hijacking the class, that she would be loud and pushy.
(Seriously, "screaming" that she doesn't understand? Behaving like a toddler?)
I'm blown away by the disparity between the reactions here, to what she actually describes doing. Disappointed. Amazed at how incredibly circumscribed the "appropriate" behavior for female students is: We're blamed if we're not confident enough to ask for help, but when we ask for help, we're characterized as behaving like toddlers, assumed to want everything spoonfed to us, lectured about self-sufficiency--
The more I type the more angry I get.
This thread is a perfect example of how even relatively "feminist" spaces1 can still be hostile to women just because of how impossible it is for us to navigate the web of double-standards and harsh judgments.
Do you want to know why there aren't more women in CS? This thread is one piece of the puzzle.
I had to deal with the same bullshit when I was working on my mathematics degree--of constantly worrying about how my questions would be interpreted because women who ask questions are viewed differently, and more negatively than men. Of not knowing how much help was reasonable to ask for, but knowing that asking for help at all meant losing esteem, because again, women who ask questions are viewed differently.
I would love to have this young woman as my student.
1 Like, I'm assuming on good faith here that no one who has commented thinks women are inherently less good at CS or that the lack of women in CS is their own fault.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:58 AM on April 7, 2016 [57 favorites]
I read the comments in this thread before reading the article. I thought that the article would be very different based on some of the criticisms aimed at her--that she would be asking for an unnecessary level of basic help instead of doing the work on her own, that she would be hijacking the class, that she would be loud and pushy.
(Seriously, "screaming" that she doesn't understand? Behaving like a toddler?)
I'm blown away by the disparity between the reactions here, to what she actually describes doing. Disappointed. Amazed at how incredibly circumscribed the "appropriate" behavior for female students is: We're blamed if we're not confident enough to ask for help, but when we ask for help, we're characterized as behaving like toddlers, assumed to want everything spoonfed to us, lectured about self-sufficiency--
The more I type the more angry I get.
This thread is a perfect example of how even relatively "feminist" spaces1 can still be hostile to women just because of how impossible it is for us to navigate the web of double-standards and harsh judgments.
Do you want to know why there aren't more women in CS? This thread is one piece of the puzzle.
I had to deal with the same bullshit when I was working on my mathematics degree--of constantly worrying about how my questions would be interpreted because women who ask questions are viewed differently, and more negatively than men. Of not knowing how much help was reasonable to ask for, but knowing that asking for help at all meant losing esteem, because again, women who ask questions are viewed differently.
I would love to have this young woman as my student.
1 Like, I'm assuming on good faith here that no one who has commented thinks women are inherently less good at CS or that the lack of women in CS is their own fault.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:58 AM on April 7, 2016 [57 favorites]
I program industrial machinery and feel fortunate that we have a culture of information sharing where I work. We're encouraged to take the time to ask and answer questions, and I cannot tell you how much I have improved in my trade since I arrived at this shop. I've benefited greatly from the amassed wisdom of a team of seasoned machinists and fabricators. These days I'm established enough that I end up fielding questions as well, which has easily been as valuable for helping me understand the things I know. My employers like it because they get as much experience as possible into as many hands as possible. We do hard projects and make money and people don't get squished or blended by machinery because it's okay to admit when we need help.
So, I really bristle at the notion that TAs have something better to do than assist students, even when those students are first-years with varied experience. Especially when they're first-years with varied experience. It deprives the TAs of the kind of teaching that reinforces and broadens their understanding of the material, it lets them off the hook from something for which they're being compensated, and deprives students of the education for which they are paying.
I am aware that industry is, in general, not prepared to support her, but I think she has the right idea. Nothing of value will be lost by infiltrating more programmers into the workforce who expect to give and receive compassion and generosity.
posted by qbject at 9:01 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, I really bristle at the notion that TAs have something better to do than assist students, even when those students are first-years with varied experience. Especially when they're first-years with varied experience. It deprives the TAs of the kind of teaching that reinforces and broadens their understanding of the material, it lets them off the hook from something for which they're being compensated, and deprives students of the education for which they are paying.
I am aware that industry is, in general, not prepared to support her, but I think she has the right idea. Nothing of value will be lost by infiltrating more programmers into the workforce who expect to give and receive compassion and generosity.
posted by qbject at 9:01 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like other teachers in this thread, I love it when a student is willing to say 'I don't understand.' Because that's courage - and when one student says it, the class suddenly breathes easier and become easier for others to speak up.
Yes, this. In my CS classes, I often felt like there was an unstated code of silence against admitting ignorance. Keep quiet, and no one will catch on that you're not the omnicompetent genius of the undergrad (male) programmer ideal. So she speaks up, and suddenly the whole class doesn't have to keep up the front anymore. That's really healthy.
It sounds like she's been fortunate though, because the gender dynamics in CS classes can be really toxic. It could've gone the other way. In my classes, the guys rarely spoke up, but the few women in class sometimes would — after which they'd could be branded as clueless or outsiders. So I can see exactly where the "dumb girl" framing is coming from, because that's the way some male CS students think about their female peers. (Which is a shame, because she's probably not really aware how much more capable she is than many — if not most — of the guys.)
posted by Wemmick at 9:15 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, this. In my CS classes, I often felt like there was an unstated code of silence against admitting ignorance. Keep quiet, and no one will catch on that you're not the omnicompetent genius of the undergrad (male) programmer ideal. So she speaks up, and suddenly the whole class doesn't have to keep up the front anymore. That's really healthy.
It sounds like she's been fortunate though, because the gender dynamics in CS classes can be really toxic. It could've gone the other way. In my classes, the guys rarely spoke up, but the few women in class sometimes would — after which they'd could be branded as clueless or outsiders. So I can see exactly where the "dumb girl" framing is coming from, because that's the way some male CS students think about their female peers. (Which is a shame, because she's probably not really aware how much more capable she is than many — if not most — of the guys.)
posted by Wemmick at 9:15 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Because if you don't understand, the one with the problem is you, not the TA.
I was about to write "If someone ever asks me to exemplify in one line what it is to be a bad instructor this is going to be my go-to." But actually that's not right. This statement devoid of the context we're in here? Exactly right. So let's flesh it out so it makes sense and fits into the discussion we are (or ought to be) having:
Because personally? That was pretty much my experience in every class ever, all the damned time. I feel lucky on a regular basis that I had to work my way through school (and started at a time when tuitions were low enough at the state school system such that I could still do that; it would be out of reach now, even on a programmer salary) because I took almost a decade doing it and it allowed me to learn a lot of lessons about how I learned and how the system worked.
And one of the biggest things I learned was that if I had questions, so did others. And that a lot of times most of us were afraid to ask. And that until we asked, the instructor had no idea we weren't getting it. So I moved my ass to the first row and when I had questions, I asked.
Nobody ever bitched at me for asking.
People came up to me and said I was wondering the same thing, I am glad you asked all the damned time.
So all this strong silent don't ask find out on your own blah blah blah? It makes me so angry to read that I want to swear with words I don't know yet. These descriptions of workplaces where that would be a problem? Holy cow, I want to say a prayer to a god whose name I do not know that I don't work there. Because that also doesn't resemble any good place I ever had to work. Everywhere I have worked people loved to talk out problems with each other. I would say that I probably made some of the best software architecting decisions I ever made as a result of questions people came up to ask me.
That 3%? They exist. I have had coworkers who I had to tell that they were just going to have to go find it out themselves. Usually I gave them a pointer where to find it, and the ones who didn't wash out went on to be good contributors. Sometimes I asked them questions of my own right away, sometimes it took some time.
In the classroom they can actually be a problem; I once had a CS faculty member tell me that X was indeed a good teacher but he had a real problem with not being willing to leave a single student behind. When I expressed shock at that statement he said that you're there for a whole class and that usually a question means lots of people aren't getting it, as one question surfaces a half dozen people who don't comprehend. But you can't let a protracted thing derail a whole room and have to identify when you need to tell someone to see you after class.
I don't think it's a coincidence that this person (Bill Kraynek, if you ever google yourself - you were awesome and thank you again[1]) was one of the better teachers I ever had in CS. Good teachers know how to work the class that way, and if you ever had a bad teacher and sat there wondering why the hell they were letting this one person with their questions fuck up everything? I get why you maybe are inclined to think poorly of that 3%.
But those people are there to learn, and blaming them for asking questions is madness. They're doing their job, and the job of students who don't speak up. The problem is the instructor who is not managing their classroom.
way tl;dr: this woman is awesome, this essay is great, I hope she sings this message to the world and if you think poorly of her for it then it's a virtual certainty that I think extremely poorly of you.
posted by phearlez at 9:17 AM on April 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
I was about to write "If someone ever asks me to exemplify in one line what it is to be a bad instructor this is going to be my go-to." But actually that's not right. This statement devoid of the context we're in here? Exactly right. So let's flesh it out so it makes sense and fits into the discussion we are (or ought to be) having:
Because if you don't understand, the one with the problem is you, not the TA. When you ask for help understanding and they can't elaborate or find a different way to illuminate it, the one with the problem is the TA... and the university.My experience in education on all three sides (student/instructor/staff) is that you can break up the problems with in-class or in-lab questions into two groups:
- 97%: Not asking
- 3%: Too much asking
Because personally? That was pretty much my experience in every class ever, all the damned time. I feel lucky on a regular basis that I had to work my way through school (and started at a time when tuitions were low enough at the state school system such that I could still do that; it would be out of reach now, even on a programmer salary) because I took almost a decade doing it and it allowed me to learn a lot of lessons about how I learned and how the system worked.
And one of the biggest things I learned was that if I had questions, so did others. And that a lot of times most of us were afraid to ask. And that until we asked, the instructor had no idea we weren't getting it. So I moved my ass to the first row and when I had questions, I asked.
Nobody ever bitched at me for asking.
People came up to me and said I was wondering the same thing, I am glad you asked all the damned time.
So all this strong silent don't ask find out on your own blah blah blah? It makes me so angry to read that I want to swear with words I don't know yet. These descriptions of workplaces where that would be a problem? Holy cow, I want to say a prayer to a god whose name I do not know that I don't work there. Because that also doesn't resemble any good place I ever had to work. Everywhere I have worked people loved to talk out problems with each other. I would say that I probably made some of the best software architecting decisions I ever made as a result of questions people came up to ask me.
That 3%? They exist. I have had coworkers who I had to tell that they were just going to have to go find it out themselves. Usually I gave them a pointer where to find it, and the ones who didn't wash out went on to be good contributors. Sometimes I asked them questions of my own right away, sometimes it took some time.
In the classroom they can actually be a problem; I once had a CS faculty member tell me that X was indeed a good teacher but he had a real problem with not being willing to leave a single student behind. When I expressed shock at that statement he said that you're there for a whole class and that usually a question means lots of people aren't getting it, as one question surfaces a half dozen people who don't comprehend. But you can't let a protracted thing derail a whole room and have to identify when you need to tell someone to see you after class.
I don't think it's a coincidence that this person (Bill Kraynek, if you ever google yourself - you were awesome and thank you again[1]) was one of the better teachers I ever had in CS. Good teachers know how to work the class that way, and if you ever had a bad teacher and sat there wondering why the hell they were letting this one person with their questions fuck up everything? I get why you maybe are inclined to think poorly of that 3%.
But those people are there to learn, and blaming them for asking questions is madness. They're doing their job, and the job of students who don't speak up. The problem is the instructor who is not managing their classroom.
way tl;dr: this woman is awesome, this essay is great, I hope she sings this message to the world and if you think poorly of her for it then it's a virtual certainty that I think extremely poorly of you.
posted by phearlez at 9:17 AM on April 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
I deeply, deeply respect, that the author has gotten over her fear to ask questions. But I'm concerned that if she doesn't develop the ability to synthesize new material on her own in this subject, she's eventually going to find that she has a degree in a field in which she will be unemployable.
I also deeply respect that the author recognizes the importance in learning from failure. Too many students run away from this, because failure just is not allowed in so many other learning areas and so my students are often indoctrinated with the fear of failure before they get to me. I just... I just worry that sometimes her definition of failure is not happening in a way that will let her be successful in the long-term.
But as also I tell my own kiddo from the top of this, I would be 100% happy with being proven wrong.
posted by parliboy at 7:30 AM on April 7 [1 favorite +] [!]
It's actually not your job to worry about whether the author will find a job, or whether your student will pass AP computer science. Your job is to teach her as well as possible which may, yes, include "spoon feeding." People learn and grasp concepts in very different ways. Students who are persistent enough to continue asking questions and *try* to grasp concepts are exhibiting really important skills and characteristics. Even if the author or your student will never become hotshot coders, there are a million different ways that their efforts towards learning some programming could evolve into jobs.
posted by yarly at 9:18 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I also deeply respect that the author recognizes the importance in learning from failure. Too many students run away from this, because failure just is not allowed in so many other learning areas and so my students are often indoctrinated with the fear of failure before they get to me. I just... I just worry that sometimes her definition of failure is not happening in a way that will let her be successful in the long-term.
But as also I tell my own kiddo from the top of this, I would be 100% happy with being proven wrong.
posted by parliboy at 7:30 AM on April 7 [1 favorite +] [!]
It's actually not your job to worry about whether the author will find a job, or whether your student will pass AP computer science. Your job is to teach her as well as possible which may, yes, include "spoon feeding." People learn and grasp concepts in very different ways. Students who are persistent enough to continue asking questions and *try* to grasp concepts are exhibiting really important skills and characteristics. Even if the author or your student will never become hotshot coders, there are a million different ways that their efforts towards learning some programming could evolve into jobs.
posted by yarly at 9:18 AM on April 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Being hopelessly lost in lab had become a regular occurrence for me until I finally mustered up the courage one day to expose just how little I knew about what we were learning. At first, it was utterly humiliating for me. The T.A.’s had to explain over, and over, and over again the simplest concepts. I felt the students in the room just staring at me and I saw them smirking every time the T.A. said, “Let’s try this again.” I was constantly fighting back tears and all I wanted to do was grab my stuff and run out the door, but I stuck it out. I ended up getting a perfect score on my assignment.
After that I grew less concerned with what other people thought and made it a point to fully understand the concepts prior to leaving lab. What followed was perfect score, after perfect score, after perfect score – even though it seemed as if I was the slowest learner in the class and was ALWAYS the last one out. When I broke down my walls and grew comfortable with exposing my soft underbelly, everything started to work in my favor.
Person in college is studying a difficult subject, learns that in order to master said subject they must first learn to be effective students, and willing to work hard and long to excel. Film at 11.
posted by dancestoblue at 9:20 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
After that I grew less concerned with what other people thought and made it a point to fully understand the concepts prior to leaving lab. What followed was perfect score, after perfect score, after perfect score – even though it seemed as if I was the slowest learner in the class and was ALWAYS the last one out. When I broke down my walls and grew comfortable with exposing my soft underbelly, everything started to work in my favor.
Person in college is studying a difficult subject, learns that in order to master said subject they must first learn to be effective students, and willing to work hard and long to excel. Film at 11.
posted by dancestoblue at 9:20 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
In the 5 years or so it took me to learn Haskell, I completely avoided asking for help in the #haskell IRC channel, or on the haskell mailing lists, even though I knew both existed and was even lurking on the IRC channel and seeing newcomers be given excellent instruction time after time. I felt extremely self-concious about my lack of any CS degree, lack of any advanced mathematics, etc. I read books, over and over, read tutorials, watched instructional videos, tried to read and write code, but completely avoided engaging with anyone in the learning process (with one exception, some questions to a personal friend).
This comes to mind because learning Haskell, for most people, consists of trying and failing over and over again to understand what seem like foundational concepts (like monads) until the concept suddenly sticks. And I think there's a social expectation that we don't have extreme difficultly picking up new programming concepts, and a lot of people are really bad at dealing with failure in this area.
I think I've gotten over this in the Haskell community, mostly; I seem to be asking a lot of dumb questions lately without fear. But it took way too long to get to this point; I was actually becoming known in the haskell community for the software I was writing in haskell before I got to the point of feeling comfortable engaging with it.
posted by joeyh at 9:28 AM on April 7, 2016
This comes to mind because learning Haskell, for most people, consists of trying and failing over and over again to understand what seem like foundational concepts (like monads) until the concept suddenly sticks. And I think there's a social expectation that we don't have extreme difficultly picking up new programming concepts, and a lot of people are really bad at dealing with failure in this area.
I think I've gotten over this in the Haskell community, mostly; I seem to be asking a lot of dumb questions lately without fear. But it took way too long to get to this point; I was actually becoming known in the haskell community for the software I was writing in haskell before I got to the point of feeling comfortable engaging with it.
posted by joeyh at 9:28 AM on April 7, 2016
after which they'd could be branded as clueless or outsiders
Absolutely.
Or they're branded as childish, as exceedingly needy, as unable to figure out problems on their own, as unaware of the difference between being a student and "the workplace."
Women who say that they don't understand, especially in stereotypically male fields, are assumed to be incompetent much more often than men.
We can have room in our gendered world views for "exceptional" women who don't need to ask questions, but there's no room for average or just above average. If you're not the exception, you're the rule--the incompetent girl.
I'm glad that this young woman had mostly positive experiences after asking questions, but you can see that assumption of incompetence playing out right here in this thread. I still think that female students should ask questions, but they're penalized for it in a way that male students aren't.
These kinds of attitudes are part of the bundle of reasons I never felt like I really belonged in my math classes, and maybe part of why I didn't go on to study math at the graduate level. (I went into another field, with better gender representation--but that has its own issues.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:37 AM on April 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
Absolutely.
Or they're branded as childish, as exceedingly needy, as unable to figure out problems on their own, as unaware of the difference between being a student and "the workplace."
Women who say that they don't understand, especially in stereotypically male fields, are assumed to be incompetent much more often than men.
We can have room in our gendered world views for "exceptional" women who don't need to ask questions, but there's no room for average or just above average. If you're not the exception, you're the rule--the incompetent girl.
I'm glad that this young woman had mostly positive experiences after asking questions, but you can see that assumption of incompetence playing out right here in this thread. I still think that female students should ask questions, but they're penalized for it in a way that male students aren't.
These kinds of attitudes are part of the bundle of reasons I never felt like I really belonged in my math classes, and maybe part of why I didn't go on to study math at the graduate level. (I went into another field, with better gender representation--but that has its own issues.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:37 AM on April 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
This is an article written by a very young person. It's full of oversimplification and unexamined privilege.
That being said, I congratulate her. Admitting ignorance is the first step to knowledge, and it is supremely difficult to do in a public situation. Moreso for a woman in a male-dominated field. Being a programmer is a process of becoming comfortable with the whipsaw feeling of 'I'm a genius/I'm an idiot', and the earlier you come to terms with that, the longer your career will be.
If I was her parent, I'd be proud as the dickens. If I was her friend, I'd high-five her. And if she ever rolls through the door at my shop, I'll be excited to see what she can do.
posted by lumpenprole at 9:57 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
That being said, I congratulate her. Admitting ignorance is the first step to knowledge, and it is supremely difficult to do in a public situation. Moreso for a woman in a male-dominated field. Being a programmer is a process of becoming comfortable with the whipsaw feeling of 'I'm a genius/I'm an idiot', and the earlier you come to terms with that, the longer your career will be.
If I was her parent, I'd be proud as the dickens. If I was her friend, I'd high-five her. And if she ever rolls through the door at my shop, I'll be excited to see what she can do.
posted by lumpenprole at 9:57 AM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I still think that female students should ask questions, but they're penalized for it in a way that male students aren't.
There's a promotional video going around the social media right now that is stumping for some kickstarter targeted at young girls, and one of the things it mentions is statistics that show teachers are more likely to praise girls for quiet than for asking questions. Seems to be one of the only assertions not linked out in the body of their text but I believe it 1000%.
posted by phearlez at 9:59 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a promotional video going around the social media right now that is stumping for some kickstarter targeted at young girls, and one of the things it mentions is statistics that show teachers are more likely to praise girls for quiet than for asking questions. Seems to be one of the only assertions not linked out in the body of their text but I believe it 1000%.
posted by phearlez at 9:59 AM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
We can have room in our gendered world views for "exceptional" women who don't need to ask questions, but there's no room for average or just above average. If you're not the exception, you're the rule--the incompetent girl.
Well put, and probably applies to other minorities in the classroom/workplace.
posted by yarly at 10:15 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well put, and probably applies to other minorities in the classroom/workplace.
posted by yarly at 10:15 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
except that none of the "I don't understand" statements in the article are in ALLCAPS. You are reading that into it. She does occasionally use ALLCAPS but its for emphasis of a few key words.
In fairness, the author did have the 'I don't know' statement in caps earlier, and must have edited it. I reread the article several times to try and figure out how it could be interpreted she was blonde, screaming, shouting and behaving like a toddler. (There wasn't, all of that was inferred by some readers.) The one all caps quote was clearly written to explain she was speaking loudly for the entire class to hear; reading it a shouting and screaming would require ignoring the descriptive text that proceeded the quote.
I would assume she edited because of such poor criticism from people who failed to read her description of events and instead read it in the most uncharitable of lights. Maybe even this thread.
It's a pet peeve of mine how the mostly progressive and feminist metafilter still will often have a number of comments that characterize women in an uncharitable light just for being a women; it happens a lot. Mods are pretty good at cleaning up isolated comments about irrelivant gendered criticisms, but but that also means that there isn't often a record of when it has occurred. So I'm not sure if that's good or bad. But it happens, and probably a lot more than people realize, unless you're early to a thread.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:44 AM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
In fairness, the author did have the 'I don't know' statement in caps earlier, and must have edited it. I reread the article several times to try and figure out how it could be interpreted she was blonde, screaming, shouting and behaving like a toddler. (There wasn't, all of that was inferred by some readers.) The one all caps quote was clearly written to explain she was speaking loudly for the entire class to hear; reading it a shouting and screaming would require ignoring the descriptive text that proceeded the quote.
I would assume she edited because of such poor criticism from people who failed to read her description of events and instead read it in the most uncharitable of lights. Maybe even this thread.
It's a pet peeve of mine how the mostly progressive and feminist metafilter still will often have a number of comments that characterize women in an uncharitable light just for being a women; it happens a lot. Mods are pretty good at cleaning up isolated comments about irrelivant gendered criticisms, but but that also means that there isn't often a record of when it has occurred. So I'm not sure if that's good or bad. But it happens, and probably a lot more than people realize, unless you're early to a thread.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:44 AM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
This thread makes me sad. No wonder women are leaving the field in droves. I love programming, but holy hell is it not worth climbing over all the mountains of sexism on top of all the mountains of learning a difficult subject.
posted by zug at 10:47 AM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by zug at 10:47 AM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
And before this comes up as an affirmative defense, women are not immune from making shitty, sexist comments about other women! It happens a lot! We've all been socialized to hate women, and unfortunately other women can often be the worst offenders when they perceive another woman disrupting the "right" way to act.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:49 AM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:49 AM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is an article written by a very young person. It's full of oversimplification and unexamined privilege.You know, once I started noticing how often people on Metafilter dismissively describe young women as privileged, I realized that it's pretty much everywhere on this site.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:02 AM on April 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
I started to ask for clarification on that assertion and then realized this thread had made me mad enough already.
posted by phearlez at 11:12 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by phearlez at 11:12 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
My first semester at university, despite being female* in CS, I managed to ask for help with math and programming, often. Weekly. The material was unfamiliar and hard, the TAs and professors were patient and willing to explain (repeatedly).
Starting in the second semester, I started to notice people talking about ... how strange it is, that people were asking questions, about those subjects. This is easy! Stop wasting everyone's time.
Next year: I had a bunch of friends who were older than me, and TAs for a very difficult class. They complained about some of the students: "How did they even get into [class] if they don't know so many basic things?"
Later, still: I ask someone a question about a math problem. The response: "Why don't you just give up?"
I dropped out. I hope things change, at my former school and elsewhere.
*I transitioned, later, but I still get 'Women in CS' emails ...
posted by you could feel the sky at 11:13 AM on April 7, 2016
Starting in the second semester, I started to notice people talking about ... how strange it is, that people were asking questions, about those subjects. This is easy! Stop wasting everyone's time.
Next year: I had a bunch of friends who were older than me, and TAs for a very difficult class. They complained about some of the students: "How did they even get into [class] if they don't know so many basic things?"
Later, still: I ask someone a question about a math problem. The response: "Why don't you just give up?"
I dropped out. I hope things change, at my former school and elsewhere.
*I transitioned, later, but I still get 'Women in CS' emails ...
posted by you could feel the sky at 11:13 AM on April 7, 2016
I am really really glad right now that I had the experience of the Recurse Center, where the rules (such as "no feigned surprise") help prevent participants from making it hard for people to say "what's that?" or "I don't understand." My first week at the Recurse Center, I said "I don't know" or "what's that?" so many times. Because, for the first time, I felt safe -- displaying my vulnerability and ignorance would not be used as a reason to exclude or scorn me. My sophomore year, my trig teacher ridiculed the class when we didn't ask questions, and then mocked us when we did ask questions. Evidently no question, no matter how we posed it, was legitimate and worthy of kind or even neutrally worded clarification. Mr. Medeiros is now my anti-role-model, a cautionary tale, and luckily -- like Catherine, the woman who wrote the "Being a ‘Dumb’ Girl in Computer Science" piece -- I have counterexamples telling me that being vulnerable, and asking help when I need it, helps me learn.
I agree that learners should try using the web and similar asynchronous resources to solve our own problems, but sometimes one gets stuck and needs interpersonal guidance to make the mental leap that makes those materials useful. I also think that if there are teachers or mentors around whose job it is to help learners, then I think learners should learn to recognize the "I'm stuck and need a bit of conversation/guidance to help me make the necessary mental leap here" state, so we don't stay stuck.
posted by brainwane at 11:58 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree that learners should try using the web and similar asynchronous resources to solve our own problems, but sometimes one gets stuck and needs interpersonal guidance to make the mental leap that makes those materials useful. I also think that if there are teachers or mentors around whose job it is to help learners, then I think learners should learn to recognize the "I'm stuck and need a bit of conversation/guidance to help me make the necessary mental leap here" state, so we don't stay stuck.
posted by brainwane at 11:58 AM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree that learners should try using the web and similar asynchronous resources to solve our own problems
I disagree. Firmly and loudly. Tiresomely, I will admit.
Not everyone learns best from interaction and lecture. But - particularly in this day and age when there are multiple choices for how one takes a class and online learning choices exist - to fail to speak up in in-person lectures and labs is to choose to throw away a useful and available option.
If the student would be best served consuming the material passively and going to look for further explanation on their own then they would be asked to read it on their own time. The classroom is for interaction and elaboration.
It may not benefit everyone - there may be people in the room who are better served doing their own thing on their own time - but it almost always benefits more than just the asker.
posted by phearlez at 12:19 PM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I disagree. Firmly and loudly. Tiresomely, I will admit.
Not everyone learns best from interaction and lecture. But - particularly in this day and age when there are multiple choices for how one takes a class and online learning choices exist - to fail to speak up in in-person lectures and labs is to choose to throw away a useful and available option.
If the student would be best served consuming the material passively and going to look for further explanation on their own then they would be asked to read it on their own time. The classroom is for interaction and elaboration.
It may not benefit everyone - there may be people in the room who are better served doing their own thing on their own time - but it almost always benefits more than just the asker.
posted by phearlez at 12:19 PM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yes, this thread makes me angry and sad too. I am a female programmer. There is a particular attitude, in schools, in the profession and in this thread - coming from what I sarcastically call the 'guardians of code' - that if you are not naturally good at programming, you don't belong here. It doesn't click for you right away? Stop wasting our time; don't sully our code.
My story begins not unlike this woman's. I was the 'dumb' girl taking programming at the technical school. I came from a humanities background, where the only job 'in my field' would have been to become an academic. Tired of my low paying waitressing and pink collar admin jobs, I decided that I wanted a real career where I got to use my brain, where I would be in demand and where I would be paid well.
I have absolutely no natural aptitude for programming. I failed programming 101 the first time. I only got a B the second time. But I worked hard, I asked questions, got help when I needed it and ended up doing extremely well in the program, as I'm sure this woman will. I went on to land a good co-op and then a good job, where I've been now for three years. I am no rockstar. But I don't need to be. And neither do most programmers. The vast majority of the people I work with are simply smart, earnest and humble people.
I can only say, thank god I didn't actually know any programmers or anything about programming culture before I went down this path, or I would have already encountered the "you should just show yourself out if it doesn't come easy to you' attitude. And then, I never would have attempted it.
posted by kitcat at 12:24 PM on April 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
My story begins not unlike this woman's. I was the 'dumb' girl taking programming at the technical school. I came from a humanities background, where the only job 'in my field' would have been to become an academic. Tired of my low paying waitressing and pink collar admin jobs, I decided that I wanted a real career where I got to use my brain, where I would be in demand and where I would be paid well.
I have absolutely no natural aptitude for programming. I failed programming 101 the first time. I only got a B the second time. But I worked hard, I asked questions, got help when I needed it and ended up doing extremely well in the program, as I'm sure this woman will. I went on to land a good co-op and then a good job, where I've been now for three years. I am no rockstar. But I don't need to be. And neither do most programmers. The vast majority of the people I work with are simply smart, earnest and humble people.
I can only say, thank god I didn't actually know any programmers or anything about programming culture before I went down this path, or I would have already encountered the "you should just show yourself out if it doesn't come easy to you' attitude. And then, I never would have attempted it.
posted by kitcat at 12:24 PM on April 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
So I spent a good portion of 2013 and 2014 doing free/open source software outreach and education. FOSS has a reputation for being unwelcoming to newcomers and intolerant of people asking for help - the RTFM mentality. It is also notably less diverse than computer science as a whole. There are a number of reasons for that lack of diversity, but I don't think the RTFM mentality is helping. (Fortunately, though, I think the RTFM mentality is changing.)
When I first started running workshops, I focused on how to use tools - git, IRC, issue trackers. But it turned out the most valuable use of my time was teaching attendees how to learn. What steps are you likely to get stuck at? What are common solutions that you can try first by yourself? What are good resources for finding solutions? What information should you include in your request for help? These questions had FOSS-specific answers, which we'd go over, but they're applicable to many domains.
In addition to meta skill-building there was, for lack of a better term, a lot of emotional labor to be done. I often found myself, after talks at conferences, or during lunches at workshops, or during small group activities, chatting with students (mostly women) and listening to their fears and frustrations. Many of them were worried about not being good enough to "make it" in CS or in FOSS. Even more of them were worried about being a burden on their teachers and on open source maintainers. Re-contextualizing failure as a normal and positive part of learning, and the student-mentor relationship as a give-and-take that they had the power to make less/not-at-all burdensome, was way more impactful than teaching them, I don't know, git merge or diff and patch.
I gave an "intro to open source" talk at Grace Hopper a couple years ago with a live demo. The night before the talk, I sat down to practice it several times, wanting to make sure I got it right. Then it occurred to me that it might just be more helpful for the audience to see me get it wrong. So I went and read a novel instead, and the next day I did make an error during the live demo. I talked my way through the whole process of fixing it, including narrating my emotional state: "Wow, I feel dumb for not noticing that! But that doesn't mean I am dumb, of course. Everybody makes mistakes, and now I'm less likely to make this one again." Etc, etc.
I'm not entirely sure what my point is. I guess it's that good teaching is hard work, and learning is a skill you can get better at. But we'll never improve either process without that basic first step of being willing to say "I don't understand", and without teachers who respond with enthusiasm rather than disdain.
posted by galaxy rise at 12:39 PM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
When I first started running workshops, I focused on how to use tools - git, IRC, issue trackers. But it turned out the most valuable use of my time was teaching attendees how to learn. What steps are you likely to get stuck at? What are common solutions that you can try first by yourself? What are good resources for finding solutions? What information should you include in your request for help? These questions had FOSS-specific answers, which we'd go over, but they're applicable to many domains.
In addition to meta skill-building there was, for lack of a better term, a lot of emotional labor to be done. I often found myself, after talks at conferences, or during lunches at workshops, or during small group activities, chatting with students (mostly women) and listening to their fears and frustrations. Many of them were worried about not being good enough to "make it" in CS or in FOSS. Even more of them were worried about being a burden on their teachers and on open source maintainers. Re-contextualizing failure as a normal and positive part of learning, and the student-mentor relationship as a give-and-take that they had the power to make less/not-at-all burdensome, was way more impactful than teaching them, I don't know, git merge or diff and patch.
I gave an "intro to open source" talk at Grace Hopper a couple years ago with a live demo. The night before the talk, I sat down to practice it several times, wanting to make sure I got it right. Then it occurred to me that it might just be more helpful for the audience to see me get it wrong. So I went and read a novel instead, and the next day I did make an error during the live demo. I talked my way through the whole process of fixing it, including narrating my emotional state: "Wow, I feel dumb for not noticing that! But that doesn't mean I am dumb, of course. Everybody makes mistakes, and now I'm less likely to make this one again." Etc, etc.
I'm not entirely sure what my point is. I guess it's that good teaching is hard work, and learning is a skill you can get better at. But we'll never improve either process without that basic first step of being willing to say "I don't understand", and without teachers who respond with enthusiasm rather than disdain.
posted by galaxy rise at 12:39 PM on April 7, 2016 [17 favorites]
I think people are also forgetting that being able to teach yourself requires that you have a certain "bootstrap" base of knowledge, so that you can 1. actually describe the problem you're having and 2. locate the resources you need in order to understand the solution. A beginner with no CS experience is going to have a hard time searching the web for answers, particularly if they don't have strong insight into where exactly they're getting tripped up (which is natural for someone new to a field).
As a P.S. to galaxy rise, in my AI class I had a prof who was very willing to make mistakes and get stuck when solving problems on the board, and it was actually not just a good way to model a healthy response to failure, but also a great teaching tool, because it got people involved and thinking about how to solve the problem (as well as stuff like, does this answer pass a sanity check?).
posted by en forme de poire at 12:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
As a P.S. to galaxy rise, in my AI class I had a prof who was very willing to make mistakes and get stuck when solving problems on the board, and it was actually not just a good way to model a healthy response to failure, but also a great teaching tool, because it got people involved and thinking about how to solve the problem (as well as stuff like, does this answer pass a sanity check?).
posted by en forme de poire at 12:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
My first thought on reading this was that everyone else in the class was as confused as she was, but she was the only one who had the nerve to ask questions. So she got better marks than they did.
Many many people are too scared to admit that they don't know things.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 12:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Many many people are too scared to admit that they don't know things.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 12:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
phearlez, I agree with you that learners should use in-person means! Specifically, learners who are in educational places where there are classrooms and labs, yes, yes, those learners should absolutely make the most of those opportunities! Please read what I am saying about asynchronous learning as "and" rather than "instead of".
posted by brainwane at 12:58 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 12:58 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The context here is that I figure sometimes a person is immediately available to help me out synchronously, and sometimes that is not the case.
If I'm in a traditional educational institution, with in-person opportunities to meet with teachers some number of hours per week, then if I can bring stuff up with them immediately upon trying to understand something, great! And then sometimes I'll be doing my homework or what have you, and I get stuck, and it's not one of those particular hours when an expert is available to me. That's the kind of situation I'm talking about where it is a good idea to try out learning from available asynchronous materials -- as one of many approaches, and only if/when/while it's useful. Please, please, please, read me generously here as someone who is in favor of learners (in and outside traditional educational institutions) having lots of options for learning pathways?
I've mentored interns before and the "you must try, and then you must ask" kind of approach is a pretty good framework.
posted by brainwane at 1:07 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
If I'm in a traditional educational institution, with in-person opportunities to meet with teachers some number of hours per week, then if I can bring stuff up with them immediately upon trying to understand something, great! And then sometimes I'll be doing my homework or what have you, and I get stuck, and it's not one of those particular hours when an expert is available to me. That's the kind of situation I'm talking about where it is a good idea to try out learning from available asynchronous materials -- as one of many approaches, and only if/when/while it's useful. Please, please, please, read me generously here as someone who is in favor of learners (in and outside traditional educational institutions) having lots of options for learning pathways?
I've mentored interns before and the "you must try, and then you must ask" kind of approach is a pretty good framework.
posted by brainwane at 1:07 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
(I am mainly out of this thread, but I would like to point that at no time I have ever said that she shouldn't have asked. I wrote several times that being concrete in her questions and asking for further information would be more productive than just expressing existential confusion as it was framed in the article. Thank you.)
posted by sukeban at 1:10 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by sukeban at 1:10 PM on April 7, 2016
I expect she was trying to avoid people telling her that if she didn't get elementary concept foo, then she had no business wasting the TA's, the class', and the department's time. Just a guess.
posted by hollyholly at 1:13 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by hollyholly at 1:13 PM on April 7, 2016
I also think that it's assuming facts not in evidence to say that she didn't also ask more concrete questions both before and after saying "I don't understand." I think it's more likely that the specific details of what she was trying to figure out were beside the point of this specific story.
posted by en forme de poire at 1:15 PM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 1:15 PM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
In my experience as someone who has always asked questions is that asking questions is part of learning not only how to become better at figuring out things myself but also learning how to ask better questions and become more skilled at knowing when is the time to ask and when is the time to step back at work it myself.
Now when I ask a questions it's usually because I've already gone through a whole lot of trying to figure something out and I know that I'm missing something key. I'm missing something that when answered by somebody who knows makes whatever I'm working come together. "Aha, now I get it, so this means this is that, and now this is connected with that and so on."
I'm sure younger less experience me asked (seemingly dumber) questions but that's made old, more experienced me better able to ask smarter questions. When I ask now it's because I know that this is situation where I need to ask in order to 'get it'. Give me this answer and I can more easily continue to learn on my own if necessary. Asking good questions is it's own skill.
I have to give a whole number of my teachers and profs credit for this. Most times when I asked things it wasn't just 'here is the answer' it was as much 'let me help you figure out the answer.' It was a team effort.
I also have to ditto on the whole issues of women feeling less inclined to speak up and getting negative reactions for doing so. I went to University two different times. The first right out of highschool and the second around 30. At thirty I was of course with a lot of younger people. At thirty I had the awareness to notice the difference. I ended up being more like a coach in many of my study groups with helping (mostly younger woman) to get more comfortable with speaking up and doing things like going and asking for help if they needed it. It really was a thing. One time I dragged the whole group to the profs office during office hours to get one of our group project questions answered. The reluctance and even embarassment about doing that was a thing. And it wasn't the Prof. He said over and over that this is what office hours were for. At the school I went too I found most of them really meant it but even so not very many people did. I was always visiting and asking about things and over and over I was told that this was great and that they even appreciated it because not very many people did use them beyond just asking about missing tests or about problems with grades and needing extensions etc.
posted by Jalliah at 1:19 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Now when I ask a questions it's usually because I've already gone through a whole lot of trying to figure something out and I know that I'm missing something key. I'm missing something that when answered by somebody who knows makes whatever I'm working come together. "Aha, now I get it, so this means this is that, and now this is connected with that and so on."
I'm sure younger less experience me asked (seemingly dumber) questions but that's made old, more experienced me better able to ask smarter questions. When I ask now it's because I know that this is situation where I need to ask in order to 'get it'. Give me this answer and I can more easily continue to learn on my own if necessary. Asking good questions is it's own skill.
I have to give a whole number of my teachers and profs credit for this. Most times when I asked things it wasn't just 'here is the answer' it was as much 'let me help you figure out the answer.' It was a team effort.
I also have to ditto on the whole issues of women feeling less inclined to speak up and getting negative reactions for doing so. I went to University two different times. The first right out of highschool and the second around 30. At thirty I was of course with a lot of younger people. At thirty I had the awareness to notice the difference. I ended up being more like a coach in many of my study groups with helping (mostly younger woman) to get more comfortable with speaking up and doing things like going and asking for help if they needed it. It really was a thing. One time I dragged the whole group to the profs office during office hours to get one of our group project questions answered. The reluctance and even embarassment about doing that was a thing. And it wasn't the Prof. He said over and over that this is what office hours were for. At the school I went too I found most of them really meant it but even so not very many people did. I was always visiting and asking about things and over and over I was told that this was great and that they even appreciated it because not very many people did use them beyond just asking about missing tests or about problems with grades and needing extensions etc.
posted by Jalliah at 1:19 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Students who are persistent enough to continue asking questions and *try* to grasp concepts are exhibiting really important skills and characteristics.
Yes, they are. And when questions are asked, I answer them as thoroughly and as fairly as possible. But what if they don't actually ask questions? What if the question really translates to, "How do I write this program?" Should I tell a student how to write a program for which they get a grade? What is the cut-off point at which what a student demonstrates is not mastery, but mimicry?
posted by parliboy at 2:06 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, they are. And when questions are asked, I answer them as thoroughly and as fairly as possible. But what if they don't actually ask questions? What if the question really translates to, "How do I write this program?" Should I tell a student how to write a program for which they get a grade? What is the cut-off point at which what a student demonstrates is not mastery, but mimicry?
posted by parliboy at 2:06 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
but I'm not sure it translates into the workplace where it is expected that one is able to come up with the answers oneself.
Sure it does. Because yes, it is expected that you will be able to come up with the answers to things that are part of YOUR job yourself, you still need to be able to ask your manager clarifying questions about the things that are part of HER job. If your specs are unclear, or your budget is vague, or the timelines are left unstated, you have to have the confidence to say "Hey, I need to get straight on this before I proceed" instead of just assuming that if you weren't such a moron it would be obvious and making your best desperate stab at it while cringing for weeks in anticipation of the inevitable shitstorm that will roll your way when it turns out you were wrong.
posted by KathrynT at 2:17 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Sure it does. Because yes, it is expected that you will be able to come up with the answers to things that are part of YOUR job yourself, you still need to be able to ask your manager clarifying questions about the things that are part of HER job. If your specs are unclear, or your budget is vague, or the timelines are left unstated, you have to have the confidence to say "Hey, I need to get straight on this before I proceed" instead of just assuming that if you weren't such a moron it would be obvious and making your best desperate stab at it while cringing for weeks in anticipation of the inevitable shitstorm that will roll your way when it turns out you were wrong.
posted by KathrynT at 2:17 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Sure it does. Because yes, it is expected that you will be able to come up with the answers to things that are part of YOUR job yourself, you still need to be able to ask your manager clarifying questions about the things that are part of HER job.
I can't agree with this enough.
I do data analysis and forecasting - and I routinely have people coming to me all over the company asking me for reports and projections. My first question is always "Talk me through what you are trying to do with this?" (Often followed up by "I don't yet understand what you're trying to accomplish.") because routinely they don't really understand what I can do for them, and just guess at what to ask for.
Some of the worst issues we have had in my office were with someone in a related role who would unquestioningly do whatever people asked of him, often providing work products that were technically exactly what was asked for but functionally useless and unhelpful. All because he wasn't willing to ask questions and understand how his work was fitting into a larger project.
posted by antimony at 2:31 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I can't agree with this enough.
I do data analysis and forecasting - and I routinely have people coming to me all over the company asking me for reports and projections. My first question is always "Talk me through what you are trying to do with this?" (Often followed up by "I don't yet understand what you're trying to accomplish.") because routinely they don't really understand what I can do for them, and just guess at what to ask for.
Some of the worst issues we have had in my office were with someone in a related role who would unquestioningly do whatever people asked of him, often providing work products that were technically exactly what was asked for but functionally useless and unhelpful. All because he wasn't willing to ask questions and understand how his work was fitting into a larger project.
posted by antimony at 2:31 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
yes, it is expected that you will be able to come up with the answers to things that are part of YOUR job yourself
That's not even always true. Sometimes you need help doing your own job. Just last week I had a code problem I couldn't solve. I asked my colleague/mentor for help. It turned out that I needed to clone my object - something I had never even heard of, so how would I have figured it out on my own? Then, having the terminology I needed I was able to use google to sort it out (although he decided very kindly to walk me through it and we both went on with our days).
posted by kitcat at 2:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's not even always true. Sometimes you need help doing your own job. Just last week I had a code problem I couldn't solve. I asked my colleague/mentor for help. It turned out that I needed to clone my object - something I had never even heard of, so how would I have figured it out on my own? Then, having the terminology I needed I was able to use google to sort it out (although he decided very kindly to walk me through it and we both went on with our days).
posted by kitcat at 2:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm a senior programmer, I've got about twenty years in this field now.
Right now I'm working on an application built out of scala / spray / spray-json / akka / slf4j / soundlibs and some ugodly number of private company libs/apis. When I have unexplained bugs, those bugs often live in the weird intersections of all those technologies. This can make finding solutions ... tricky*
You'd better believe that I frequently ask for help from colleagues who are doing the exact same job as me. I work where I work largely because we're chill like that and people don't mind helping.
* Especially logging. Logging in the jvm is so fucked up I can't even.
posted by Sauce Trough at 2:46 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Right now I'm working on an application built out of scala / spray / spray-json / akka / slf4j / soundlibs and some ugodly number of private company libs/apis. When I have unexplained bugs, those bugs often live in the weird intersections of all those technologies. This can make finding solutions ... tricky*
You'd better believe that I frequently ask for help from colleagues who are doing the exact same job as me. I work where I work largely because we're chill like that and people don't mind helping.
* Especially logging. Logging in the jvm is so fucked up I can't even.
posted by Sauce Trough at 2:46 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm a scientist not a programmer (though I do a little programming)... but I'm on interview panels for some open positions right now. Literally my most important criterion for my inputs on these hiring decisions is "Does this person seem willing to ask and answer questions?"
People who think they need to figure out everything themselves, in an R&D context where you're trying to do stuff that no one has done before, quickly bog down and get stuck. Projects can grind to a halt all because they didn't want to ask for help. Similarly, when I am stuck, I need to be able to count on my colleagues to help me find away over or around or through a problem, because I can't see my own blind spots.
Nothing will get you a "Not a good fit" comment from me in a job interview faster than acting like a know-it-all, and nothing will get you a positive recommendation faster than an honest "I don't understand" paired with a thoughtful description of what about the topic at hand doesn't fit into the schema in your head.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:56 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
People who think they need to figure out everything themselves, in an R&D context where you're trying to do stuff that no one has done before, quickly bog down and get stuck. Projects can grind to a halt all because they didn't want to ask for help. Similarly, when I am stuck, I need to be able to count on my colleagues to help me find away over or around or through a problem, because I can't see my own blind spots.
Nothing will get you a "Not a good fit" comment from me in a job interview faster than acting like a know-it-all, and nothing will get you a positive recommendation faster than an honest "I don't understand" paired with a thoughtful description of what about the topic at hand doesn't fit into the schema in your head.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:56 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
But what if they don't actually ask questions? What if the question really translates to, "How do I write this program?"
When someone asks you a question that you suspect amounts to "this is hard, will you do it for me," I think the right thing to do is to follow that up with something like "okay, what do you find difficult about this question?" or "why don't you take me through this out loud and we can see where you get stuck." Part of the job of being a teacher is to help students figure out what their question really is -- if they knew exactly what their problem was, a lot of them would be able to resolve it on their own.
I think you also have to watch out for the cognitive bias of "the answer is obvious [to me], so the student must really be trying to get out of doing the work." Sometimes questions that initially sound like "this is hard and I don't like it" are actually expressing something closer to "I'm frustrated because there's a key step I am misunderstanding" or "this problem seems way too complicated/unsolvable so I must be missing something" when you iterate back and forth a couple of times.
(Sometimes people really do have larger issues that are closer to "I don't know how to study" or "I am overcommitted this semester/struggling with personal issues and can't fit in the time I need to succeed" or "this class is boring and I'm only taking it because my parents want me to be a doctor," but because those aren't really your job to fix, what you can do is just keep bringing the conversation back to the things that you can fix, i.e., gaps in understanding the material, and refer people to appropriate resources if they actually bring one of these other things up to you.)
posted by en forme de poire at 2:59 PM on April 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
When someone asks you a question that you suspect amounts to "this is hard, will you do it for me," I think the right thing to do is to follow that up with something like "okay, what do you find difficult about this question?" or "why don't you take me through this out loud and we can see where you get stuck." Part of the job of being a teacher is to help students figure out what their question really is -- if they knew exactly what their problem was, a lot of them would be able to resolve it on their own.
I think you also have to watch out for the cognitive bias of "the answer is obvious [to me], so the student must really be trying to get out of doing the work." Sometimes questions that initially sound like "this is hard and I don't like it" are actually expressing something closer to "I'm frustrated because there's a key step I am misunderstanding" or "this problem seems way too complicated/unsolvable so I must be missing something" when you iterate back and forth a couple of times.
(Sometimes people really do have larger issues that are closer to "I don't know how to study" or "I am overcommitted this semester/struggling with personal issues and can't fit in the time I need to succeed" or "this class is boring and I'm only taking it because my parents want me to be a doctor," but because those aren't really your job to fix, what you can do is just keep bringing the conversation back to the things that you can fix, i.e., gaps in understanding the material, and refer people to appropriate resources if they actually bring one of these other things up to you.)
posted by en forme de poire at 2:59 PM on April 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I envy the breakthrough that this writer experienced. I wish I had overcome my pride and developed an ability for this kind of vulnerability earlier in life.
I was a "clever" kid. I don't know whether or not I was (or am) "smart", but I was one of those kids that you're alternately surprised and irritated by... the precocious one, using words or concepts that you'd figure they have no right to. Couldn't keep my nose out of a book, and was genuinely curious, so I picked up all sorts of crap, apparently effortlessly.
Eventually life, education, and the breadth of available knowledge caught up with me, like a biomechanically imposed limitation of Moore's Law, and I began to find that not everything was always immediately intuitive when I encountered it. This would have been around grade 8.
Having lived to that point with the expectation of myself (echoed by my parents - my father's favorite response to a perfect score on a test was to jokingly suggest that there should have been a way to get additional points above 100%, which hurt me) that everything should just make sense all the time, I had never encountered the need to admit lack of comprehension or developed the humility to handle such a situation. That such a "wall" came up in those early teenage years (a period in which, for most folks, there is nothing more important than appearing flawless to your peers) did nothing to instill in me the capacity to admit that I was struggling.
So, yes, I am jealous that this writer found the largesse within herself to admit, and to be insistent about resolving, her lack of comprehension until she achieved the clarity she needed. As has been stated above, the function of an educational environment is to educate - in any post-secondary environment worth the $ paid this must include fostering a culture of reciprocity: a student demonstrating desire and dedication to learn should receive as much support as is needed, when it is requested.
The article and this discussion has also given me pause when I consider my current work environment. While I don't consider what I do to be particularly esoteric, I begin to understand that what I do may appear that way to the "consumers" of my work. It would probably be appropriate to rein in my sense of entitlement, indignation and frustration when others don't intuitively understand the mechanics of my work; probably, better to coach them into a collaborative working relationship rather than being resentful (and providing no feedback or "teaching") when I am not provided with what I need from the outset when asked to deliver on a request.
Anyway, this was a bit of a ramble. Bottom line: I am a cis white male, and I think this article can also speak to folks like myself about how we should think about:
* the relationship about the "custodians of knowledge" and the folks who require that knowledge
* the need for anyone who has a genuine desire for learning to put aside pride and social convention, and insist upon understanding.
My 2¢.
posted by jackrational at 3:43 PM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I was a "clever" kid. I don't know whether or not I was (or am) "smart", but I was one of those kids that you're alternately surprised and irritated by... the precocious one, using words or concepts that you'd figure they have no right to. Couldn't keep my nose out of a book, and was genuinely curious, so I picked up all sorts of crap, apparently effortlessly.
Eventually life, education, and the breadth of available knowledge caught up with me, like a biomechanically imposed limitation of Moore's Law, and I began to find that not everything was always immediately intuitive when I encountered it. This would have been around grade 8.
Having lived to that point with the expectation of myself (echoed by my parents - my father's favorite response to a perfect score on a test was to jokingly suggest that there should have been a way to get additional points above 100%, which hurt me) that everything should just make sense all the time, I had never encountered the need to admit lack of comprehension or developed the humility to handle such a situation. That such a "wall" came up in those early teenage years (a period in which, for most folks, there is nothing more important than appearing flawless to your peers) did nothing to instill in me the capacity to admit that I was struggling.
So, yes, I am jealous that this writer found the largesse within herself to admit, and to be insistent about resolving, her lack of comprehension until she achieved the clarity she needed. As has been stated above, the function of an educational environment is to educate - in any post-secondary environment worth the $ paid this must include fostering a culture of reciprocity: a student demonstrating desire and dedication to learn should receive as much support as is needed, when it is requested.
The article and this discussion has also given me pause when I consider my current work environment. While I don't consider what I do to be particularly esoteric, I begin to understand that what I do may appear that way to the "consumers" of my work. It would probably be appropriate to rein in my sense of entitlement, indignation and frustration when others don't intuitively understand the mechanics of my work; probably, better to coach them into a collaborative working relationship rather than being resentful (and providing no feedback or "teaching") when I am not provided with what I need from the outset when asked to deliver on a request.
Anyway, this was a bit of a ramble. Bottom line: I am a cis white male, and I think this article can also speak to folks like myself about how we should think about:
* the relationship about the "custodians of knowledge" and the folks who require that knowledge
* the need for anyone who has a genuine desire for learning to put aside pride and social convention, and insist upon understanding.
My 2¢.
posted by jackrational at 3:43 PM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
What if the question really translates to, "How do I write this program?" Should I tell a student how to write a program for which they get a grade?
Why is this relevant to the article?
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:39 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why is this relevant to the article?
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:39 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
What if the question really translates to, "How do I write this program?" Should I tell a student how to write a program for which they get a grade?
That is exactly what you should do and what you're there to do. I know you likely mean "after having been given the relevant information, the student asks how they should write the program." But! It's a good question, especially if the student really might need some guidance on how to design the program. The answer they are looking for may not be a line by line break down of the exact code, but an overview of how they will need to think about the program's goals and what methods are best to achieve it.
I mean that is a question every coder should be asking when they sit down to start something new.
I realize I'm just restating what en forme de poire said, but it is a point worth repeating.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:15 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
That is exactly what you should do and what you're there to do. I know you likely mean "after having been given the relevant information, the student asks how they should write the program." But! It's a good question, especially if the student really might need some guidance on how to design the program. The answer they are looking for may not be a line by line break down of the exact code, but an overview of how they will need to think about the program's goals and what methods are best to achieve it.
I mean that is a question every coder should be asking when they sit down to start something new.
I realize I'm just restating what en forme de poire said, but it is a point worth repeating.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:15 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I didn't read all your comments, I'm sorry.
I just wanted to say that I started crying reading this. I'm a programmer with more than 15 years of experience in the field, and hearing her talk about how admitting her ignorance and speaking up led to her and her fellow student actually getting the help they needed and building the confidence to learn more and grow and succeed made me so happy. But it also made me a bit sad--if only the wider industry understood this, and if only my fellow programmers (and me in my moments of weakness) could remember this: all of us don't understand sometimes, and we grow the most and learn best when we are open and vulnerable and say "I don't know." In fact if there's anything that I've learned as I've become a "better" programmer it's that the sooner I say "I don't know" the better.
The problem is twofold: that women don't get the support they need and that men in the field aren't as brave as the author is and are more afraid to say "I don't know" than she is. Somehow I think these things are connected.
posted by dubitable at 10:36 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just wanted to say that I started crying reading this. I'm a programmer with more than 15 years of experience in the field, and hearing her talk about how admitting her ignorance and speaking up led to her and her fellow student actually getting the help they needed and building the confidence to learn more and grow and succeed made me so happy. But it also made me a bit sad--if only the wider industry understood this, and if only my fellow programmers (and me in my moments of weakness) could remember this: all of us don't understand sometimes, and we grow the most and learn best when we are open and vulnerable and say "I don't know." In fact if there's anything that I've learned as I've become a "better" programmer it's that the sooner I say "I don't know" the better.
The problem is twofold: that women don't get the support they need and that men in the field aren't as brave as the author is and are more afraid to say "I don't know" than she is. Somehow I think these things are connected.
posted by dubitable at 10:36 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
computer science is predicated on repeated failures with iterative improvements between them.
A quote I read many years ago said something along the lines of:
"Most people think of a compiler as something that reads code and generates binaries. For most of the people, most of the time, a compiler is something that generates error messages."
posted by HiroProtagonist at 10:51 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
A quote I read many years ago said something along the lines of:
"Most people think of a compiler as something that reads code and generates binaries. For most of the people, most of the time, a compiler is something that generates error messages."
posted by HiroProtagonist at 10:51 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Most people think of a compiler as something that reads code and generates binaries sword-fighting routines. For most of the people, most of the time, a compiler is something that generates error messages."
posted by HiroProtagonist
Fixed that for you.
posted by phearlez at 6:48 AM on April 8, 2016
posted by HiroProtagonist
Fixed that for you.
posted by phearlez at 6:48 AM on April 8, 2016
[I have not read any of the above comments. I am commenting on the article only.]
YES. THIS.
I have one standard bit advice for any young adult heading to college.
1. Never miss class. Period. Sick, tired, depressed, whatever. No excuses; DON'T EVER MISS CLASS. Time to grow up, loser.
2. Take notes. Like, killer notes. Listen to the prof, and write it down in your own hand. For STEM classes, be a badass and use multiple color pencils on those graphs and diagrams. Just go f*cking nuts on the notes.
3. Sit up front, or as far up front as your social standing can possibly stand. Let the professor get accustomed to seeing YOUR face.
And here's the most important part, because if you are doing #1, #2 and #3, you can pull this off:
4. When the professor says something you don't understand, raise your hand and say I DON'T UNDERSTAND. Politely ask him to explain it again. STOP THE FUCKING LECTURE RIGHT THERE.
Because you have been in that fucking classroom every goddamn day (#1) and paying serious attention to the lectures (#2) and the professor knows it (#3). Fuck everyone else in the class, because they are too chickenshit to admit that don't understand it either. They are making excuses in their head -- I missed class, it's just me, whatever.
The professor will respect you and will try harder.
Oh, you know, whatever, look at your phone, slouch your way through life. I'm out.
Controversial coda: homework doesn't matter. The other rules here are more important. Go to class, sit up front, take notes, and stop the fucking class if you don't understand.
posted by intermod at 8:09 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
YES. THIS.
I have one standard bit advice for any young adult heading to college.
1. Never miss class. Period. Sick, tired, depressed, whatever. No excuses; DON'T EVER MISS CLASS. Time to grow up, loser.
2. Take notes. Like, killer notes. Listen to the prof, and write it down in your own hand. For STEM classes, be a badass and use multiple color pencils on those graphs and diagrams. Just go f*cking nuts on the notes.
3. Sit up front, or as far up front as your social standing can possibly stand. Let the professor get accustomed to seeing YOUR face.
And here's the most important part, because if you are doing #1, #2 and #3, you can pull this off:
4. When the professor says something you don't understand, raise your hand and say I DON'T UNDERSTAND. Politely ask him to explain it again. STOP THE FUCKING LECTURE RIGHT THERE.
Because you have been in that fucking classroom every goddamn day (#1) and paying serious attention to the lectures (#2) and the professor knows it (#3). Fuck everyone else in the class, because they are too chickenshit to admit that don't understand it either. They are making excuses in their head -- I missed class, it's just me, whatever.
The professor will respect you and will try harder.
Oh, you know, whatever, look at your phone, slouch your way through life. I'm out.
Controversial coda: homework doesn't matter. The other rules here are more important. Go to class, sit up front, take notes, and stop the fucking class if you don't understand.
posted by intermod at 8:09 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Controversial coda: homework doesn't matter. The other rules here are more important. Go to class, sit up front, take notes, and stop the fucking class if you don't understand.I really, really disagree with that, for what it's worth. I don't think that it's a good idea to think in terms of "homework", because that suggests a high-school mindset that isn't going to serve students well in college. But I absolutely think that most students are going to have to do a significant amount of work outside of class in order to really understand concepts and then reinforce those concepts so they're stored in their longterm memory. Students absolutely should go to class, sit in the front, take notes, and ask questions. But they're going to have to read the textbook before class, review it after class, and then they're going to have to go home and do a whole slew of practice problems and then keep doing a couple every day even as they move on to new material, so they get the stuff down cold and then don't forget it.
Also: don't go to class if you're sick with something contagious.
Moreover: this is the 21st century, and sometimes professors are women.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:54 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
intermod: "Sick, tired, depressed, whatever. No excuses; DON'T EVER MISS CLASS. Time to grow up, loser."
Speaking as a professor, this is terrible advice. If you are sick or depressed, please skip my class and go see your doctor or other qualified health professional to obtain treatment. Get a medical certificate to document that you have done so, and then come back to me to let me know the situation. Universities have an entire administrative structure and policy apparatus to deal with illness and other appropriate extenuating circumstances. "Time to grow up, loser" is never university policy, nor is it ever appropriate advice in the professional world.
posted by langtonsant at 9:21 PM on April 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
Speaking as a professor, this is terrible advice. If you are sick or depressed, please skip my class and go see your doctor or other qualified health professional to obtain treatment. Get a medical certificate to document that you have done so, and then come back to me to let me know the situation. Universities have an entire administrative structure and policy apparatus to deal with illness and other appropriate extenuating circumstances. "Time to grow up, loser" is never university policy, nor is it ever appropriate advice in the professional world.
posted by langtonsant at 9:21 PM on April 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
Geez, yeah. I didn't follow any of that advice. But I felt pretty much entitled to ask questions anyway? WTF was I paying > $10k per year for if I couldn't ask questions?
(I learn better from books than lectures anyway, so if I didn't need my education to be interactive, I would have stayed home and read a book.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:51 AM on April 9, 2016
(I learn better from books than lectures anyway, so if I didn't need my education to be interactive, I would have stayed home and read a book.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:51 AM on April 9, 2016
Asking questions, rather than showing a lack of knowledge, often shows a depth of understanding of the nuance around knowledge. In pretty much every circumstance (including the classroom and the workplace) you're getting a sliver of information surrounded by a sea of unstated assumptions and context. And shit goes really, really wrong when people think they share the same assumptions and context and, in fact, do not.
There's a reason that the socratic method is still in use in schools, particularly law schools. It is incredibly useful to ask questions and understand the context of answers, and this applies well to computer science and especially the process of working as a professional engineer. It's basic curiosity, and a self-awareness of what you feel certain about and what you don't feel certain about, and I wish more people in the world would be willing to admit when they don't get it.
posted by ch1x0r at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a reason that the socratic method is still in use in schools, particularly law schools. It is incredibly useful to ask questions and understand the context of answers, and this applies well to computer science and especially the process of working as a professional engineer. It's basic curiosity, and a self-awareness of what you feel certain about and what you don't feel certain about, and I wish more people in the world would be willing to admit when they don't get it.
posted by ch1x0r at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a reason that the socratic method is still in use in schools, particularly law schools. It is incredibly useful to ask questions and understand the context of answers
This reminds me! Way upthread there was a discussion of Scheme and its use in CS education. It made me smile because my favorite programming book is The Little Schemer, which has an unusual and largely socratic pedagogical method. The whole book is just a series of questions, most of which the reader will get wrong, and understanding why each answer was wrong is the incredibly effective way you learn the concepts and the language.
posted by galaxy rise at 10:38 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
This reminds me! Way upthread there was a discussion of Scheme and its use in CS education. It made me smile because my favorite programming book is The Little Schemer, which has an unusual and largely socratic pedagogical method. The whole book is just a series of questions, most of which the reader will get wrong, and understanding why each answer was wrong is the incredibly effective way you learn the concepts and the language.
posted by galaxy rise at 10:38 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
"The answer they are looking for may not be a line by line break down of the exact code, but an overview of how they will need to think about the program's goals and what methods are best to achieve it."
I dunno, the last time I tried to learn programming in college it was pretty much like, "Here is a line of code. Now write your own code!" with NO breakdown as to what anything in the line of code meant. Nobody would even tell me what any of it meant. It was like "here, write a cohesive essay in a foreign language you don't know anything about, that you don't know the meanings of the words to, and we're not gonna tell you what any of the words mean." When I asked about this, the explanation I got was, "well, this is C and that programming language was based off of A and B, and you have to know those first...." So where can I learn A and B then? Uh, nowhere? I could never get an answer to that question, or any other questions for that matter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:15 PM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I dunno, the last time I tried to learn programming in college it was pretty much like, "Here is a line of code. Now write your own code!" with NO breakdown as to what anything in the line of code meant. Nobody would even tell me what any of it meant. It was like "here, write a cohesive essay in a foreign language you don't know anything about, that you don't know the meanings of the words to, and we're not gonna tell you what any of the words mean." When I asked about this, the explanation I got was, "well, this is C and that programming language was based off of A and B, and you have to know those first...." So where can I learn A and B then? Uh, nowhere? I could never get an answer to that question, or any other questions for that matter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:15 PM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm a minority female programmer and hoo boy is this setting me off. My company just let half of our dev team go, and now that all the weakest coders are gone, I am far and away the weakest person on the team (I've been in the field for less than a year after many years as a freelance writer, where there were really no concepts to understand). Our team is mostly male and suuuuper bro-y. I have been trained out of asking questions by the senior devs; as many have said here, there is a fetish for natural genius in the field and "Just Google it" seems to be the answer to everything I ask, even if I've Googled it for hours, am on a tight deadline, and am still like ????? I've noticed that the other newer programmer, a white male, can ask questions and is praised for showing initiative. This is noticeable enough that my female manager has mentioned it to me in private and agrees I am not getting help for purely sexist reasons, not because of the way I am asking, but she's just like, "This is the culture, this is how the men in it are, and your choices are to grow a thicker skin when you're around blatant sexism it or leave the field."
Recently we did make one new female hire out of a bootcamp. My boss asked me to reach out to her instructors to see what they had to say about her. Each one (all male) praised her for finishing her assignments without ever asking them questions. Literally every single instructor mentioned that she never asked questions but still got all of her work done. This really, really appealed to my team. I was also impressed and really scared that her amazing coding would throw my shittier work into sharp relief. She was of course hired.
You know what? She is a good coder. Total natural. Miles better than I am. But she is such a crappy teammate. She really does never ask questions. She has never said, "Hm, I've never seen a job like this in our queue before. Is there anything I need to know about it before I start? Have we done something like it before?" She just kind of takes a guess, does the job to the best of her ability, and sends the job off. Weeks later, the client will get back to us and be like, "So that thing was totally written for the wrong server and doesn't do any of the things we asked it to do" and the junior devs will have to scramble to get it fixed as quickly as possible because the senior devs are already booked on projects for days. This has happened multiple times. She's still getting praise from all of the senior devs for not asking questions and just quietly doing her work without bothering them while the male coder constantly get praised for asking questions and showing interest. I've decided to move on from the job and am not particularly bothered by it at this point, but it is really crazy and telling to watch it unfold.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 1:54 AM on April 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Recently we did make one new female hire out of a bootcamp. My boss asked me to reach out to her instructors to see what they had to say about her. Each one (all male) praised her for finishing her assignments without ever asking them questions. Literally every single instructor mentioned that she never asked questions but still got all of her work done. This really, really appealed to my team. I was also impressed and really scared that her amazing coding would throw my shittier work into sharp relief. She was of course hired.
You know what? She is a good coder. Total natural. Miles better than I am. But she is such a crappy teammate. She really does never ask questions. She has never said, "Hm, I've never seen a job like this in our queue before. Is there anything I need to know about it before I start? Have we done something like it before?" She just kind of takes a guess, does the job to the best of her ability, and sends the job off. Weeks later, the client will get back to us and be like, "So that thing was totally written for the wrong server and doesn't do any of the things we asked it to do" and the junior devs will have to scramble to get it fixed as quickly as possible because the senior devs are already booked on projects for days. This has happened multiple times. She's still getting praise from all of the senior devs for not asking questions and just quietly doing her work without bothering them while the male coder constantly get praised for asking questions and showing interest. I've decided to move on from the job and am not particularly bothered by it at this point, but it is really crazy and telling to watch it unfold.
posted by Yoko Ono's Advice Column at 1:54 AM on April 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Anyway, she is describing a phenomenon of the last few years where lecturers have learned that collaborative learning and dialogue between peers, significantly helps with learning. I can do without the dumb blonde shellac.
posted by Oyéah at 10:07 PM on April 6, 2016 [4 favorites]