It's north of where I live, obviously
April 7, 2016 12:03 PM Subscribe
Where The Hell is Upstate New York? With the $15/hour minimum wage set to take effect across New York State in a complex fashion (geographically and otherwise), and the arrival of primary candidates in New York State, Gothamist explore the time-old question of where exactly upstate New York is and interviews scholars and historians whose opinions (surprise!) differ.
I'm not from around there, but I've always thought of option b, although I'm not sure about Rockland.
Option a seems to include most of Long Island, which seems a little odd.
posted by MtDewd at 12:12 PM on April 7, 2016
Option a seems to include most of Long Island, which seems a little odd.
posted by MtDewd at 12:12 PM on April 7, 2016
It's where the prisons are.
posted by jonmc at 12:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 12:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lawn Guy Land is its own beast, beautiful and terrible in its own distinctive way.
As for me, someone who grew up in Orange County, I'm going to go with Bear Mountain as the delineation, thanks to the Compact named for it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:19 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
As for me, someone who grew up in Orange County, I'm going to go with Bear Mountain as the delineation, thanks to the Compact named for it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:19 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
As someone who has never set foot in New York I imagine it to be "everything that isn't NYC" the same way "Southern Illinois" is "everything that isn't Chicago"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:25 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:25 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
As someone who has never set foot in New York I imagine it to be "everything that isn't NYC" the same way "Southern Illinois" is "everything that isn't Chicago"
That's how many people in NYC see it, too.
posted by praemunire at 12:27 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's how many people in NYC see it, too.
posted by praemunire at 12:27 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
New York is at least 8 states in one:
1. Maritime Long Island: Suffolk County, historically New England
2. New York City: ethnic, diverse New York
3. Hudson Valley: east bank, historically New England
4. Adirondack, New York and Tug Hill Plain: forest dweller individualists
5. Western New York: Midwest Western New York
6. Ontario Plain: similar to southern Canada
7. Mohawk Valley
8. Delaware Valley through Southern Tier: similar to northern Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio
From my experiences in the state, this seems accurate.
posted by Melismata at 12:29 PM on April 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
1. Maritime Long Island: Suffolk County, historically New England
2. New York City: ethnic, diverse New York
3. Hudson Valley: east bank, historically New England
4. Adirondack, New York and Tug Hill Plain: forest dweller individualists
5. Western New York: Midwest Western New York
6. Ontario Plain: similar to southern Canada
7. Mohawk Valley
8. Delaware Valley through Southern Tier: similar to northern Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio
From my experiences in the state, this seems accurate.
posted by Melismata at 12:29 PM on April 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
When you know people who want to secede from the NYC metropolitan area non-ironically, you know you're upstate.
posted by dr_dank at 12:30 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 12:30 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
As the article notes the $15 min. wage hike is being phased in slowly and not everywhere equally. I've seen it widely reported that upstate min wage will only hit $12.50 by 2021, but I haven't been able to find an official definition of what the legislature is calling "upstate" for these purposes does anyone know? I don't think I missed in in OP's link?
posted by Wretch729 at 12:31 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by Wretch729 at 12:31 PM on April 7, 2016
Mod note: One comment deleted. Fine to make a point about whether this kind of exercise is worthwhile, but please skip the inflammatory analogies.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:31 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:31 PM on April 7, 2016
A complete taxonomy of upstate New York, in one scene:
Skinner: Superintendent, I hope you're ready for mouth-watering hamburgers.
Chalmers: I thought we were having steamed clams.
Skinner: Oh, no, I said, "steamed hams." That's what I call hamburgers.
Chalmers: You call hamburgers steamed hams.
Principal Skinner: Yes, it's a regional dialect.
Chalmers: Uh-huh. What region?
Skinner: Uh, upstate New York.
Chalmers: Really. Well, I'm from Utica and I never heard anyone use the phrase, "steamed hams."
Skinner: Oh, not in Utica, no; it's an Albany expression.
posted by Mayor West at 12:42 PM on April 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Skinner: Superintendent, I hope you're ready for mouth-watering hamburgers.
Chalmers: I thought we were having steamed clams.
Skinner: Oh, no, I said, "steamed hams." That's what I call hamburgers.
Chalmers: You call hamburgers steamed hams.
Principal Skinner: Yes, it's a regional dialect.
Chalmers: Uh-huh. What region?
Skinner: Uh, upstate New York.
Chalmers: Really. Well, I'm from Utica and I never heard anyone use the phrase, "steamed hams."
Skinner: Oh, not in Utica, no; it's an Albany expression.
posted by Mayor West at 12:42 PM on April 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
I haven't been able to find an official definition of what the legislature is calling "upstate" for these purposes does anyone know?
It seems like the relevant regions for the minimum wage law are:
New York City: $15 by 2018
Long Island and Westchester: $15 by 2021
Elsewhere in NYS: $12.50 by 2021, eventually $15
(with some complicating factors based on size/sector of business)
(I didn't want to include too many links on the $15/wage thing because while the $15/wage thing is obviously a discussion-worthy subject, the reason I posted the link was about the "upstate" geographical discussion and I was hoping not to turn into a minimum wage discussion by proxy.)
posted by andrewesque at 12:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It seems like the relevant regions for the minimum wage law are:
New York City: $15 by 2018
Long Island and Westchester: $15 by 2021
Elsewhere in NYS: $12.50 by 2021, eventually $15
(with some complicating factors based on size/sector of business)
(I didn't want to include too many links on the $15/wage thing because while the $15/wage thing is obviously a discussion-worthy subject, the reason I posted the link was about the "upstate" geographical discussion and I was hoping not to turn into a minimum wage discussion by proxy.)
posted by andrewesque at 12:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like NoxEterna, I grew up in Orange Co, NY; since then I have lived much of my life upstate (in Syracuse or Ithaca).
To my mind anything north of Westchester and Rockland Counties is upstate. I am reminded when I visit relatives in the Hudson Valley, however, that places like Newburgh, Beacon, and Middletown are getting more and more non-upstate all the time, in culture and accent, I assume because of the additional commuter lines going to Orange County.
posted by aught at 12:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
To my mind anything north of Westchester and Rockland Counties is upstate. I am reminded when I visit relatives in the Hudson Valley, however, that places like Newburgh, Beacon, and Middletown are getting more and more non-upstate all the time, in culture and accent, I assume because of the additional commuter lines going to Orange County.
posted by aught at 12:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
For a widely serviceable working definition, Upstate is anywhere north or west of Dutchess county, really.
The following inaccurate definitions deserve special mockery:
any place north of 23rd Street
Everything above 14th Street is upstate to me
People who say these things are in the terminal stages of being parochial NYC-centric idiots. They've spent so much time living in and absorbing the cultural and industrial pollutants of the NYC area that they've turned partially into caricatures of New Yorkers. They're not sophisticated; they're very, very close to either becoming shut-ins or cracking completely and leaving NYC forever.
posted by clockzero at 12:45 PM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
The following inaccurate definitions deserve special mockery:
any place north of 23rd Street
Everything above 14th Street is upstate to me
People who say these things are in the terminal stages of being parochial NYC-centric idiots. They've spent so much time living in and absorbing the cultural and industrial pollutants of the NYC area that they've turned partially into caricatures of New Yorkers. They're not sophisticated; they're very, very close to either becoming shut-ins or cracking completely and leaving NYC forever.
posted by clockzero at 12:45 PM on April 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I've claimed before that I hold the "North of Metro-North" definition, but accept the "more than 15 miles north of where I live" defnition. Anyone not from Staten Island who claims that upstate is north of 14th or 23rd St (or even the Park) is trying too hard.
I love the comment defining upstate as starting where radio stations WINS and WNYC get static-y.
WCBS-AM, on the other hand, is a clear channel station, and I've kept it tuned in my car all the way to the Bourne Bridge (during the day), and picked it up from Central Virginia at night (a.k.a. I've absolutely got to listen to this Red Sox game, even if it means listening to the Yankees broadcast).
posted by thecaddy at 12:47 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love the comment defining upstate as starting where radio stations WINS and WNYC get static-y.
WCBS-AM, on the other hand, is a clear channel station, and I've kept it tuned in my car all the way to the Bourne Bridge (during the day), and picked it up from Central Virginia at night (a.k.a. I've absolutely got to listen to this Red Sox game, even if it means listening to the Yankees broadcast).
posted by thecaddy at 12:47 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Personally, I went to school in Utica, and I consider "upstate New York" to constitute everything north of Raleigh-Durham.
posted by Mayor West at 12:50 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by Mayor West at 12:50 PM on April 7, 2016
Chalmers: I thought we were having steamed clams.
Skinner: Oh, no, I said, "steamed hams." That's what I call hamburgers.
Skinner is clearly from Connecticut.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:51 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Skinner: Oh, no, I said, "steamed hams." That's what I call hamburgers.
Skinner is clearly from Connecticut.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:51 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
When you know people who want to secede from the NYC metropolitan area non-ironically, you know you're upstate.
(eye roll) Big-mouthed jackass relatives I want to slap upside the head for $500, Alex.
posted by aught at 12:56 PM on April 7, 2016
(eye roll) Big-mouthed jackass relatives I want to slap upside the head for $500, Alex.
posted by aught at 12:56 PM on April 7, 2016
People who say these things are in the terminal stages of being parochial NYC-centric idiots. They've spent so much time living in and absorbing the cultural and industrial pollutants of the NYC area that they've turned partially into caricatures of New Yorkers. They're not sophisticated; they're very, very close to either becoming shut-ins or cracking completely and leaving NYC forever.
But Yonkers is totally upstate though, right?
I've claimed before that I hold the "North of Metro-North" definition
That's one of the best definitions I've heard, though I'd personally count some of the further reaches of Metro North *furiously side-eyes Wassaic*. Though I count Duchess County as mostly upsate-ish, which I know is not super popular among upstaters.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:58 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
But Yonkers is totally upstate though, right?
I've claimed before that I hold the "North of Metro-North" definition
That's one of the best definitions I've heard, though I'd personally count some of the further reaches of Metro North *furiously side-eyes Wassaic*. Though I count Duchess County as mostly upsate-ish, which I know is not super popular among upstaters.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:58 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also it's worth mentioning that goofily small definitions work both ways; I know people from Plattsburgh who claim that Utica doesn't count as "really upstate".
posted by Itaxpica at 1:01 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Itaxpica at 1:01 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
But Yonkers is totally upstate though, right?
Hmm. One can get to Yonkers in 10 minutes on the Westchester Bee-Line bus Rt. 20 from the Bedford Park 4 train station in the Bronx, so I'd say no, Yonkers is not upstate.
As one of the commenters on Gothamist is saying, and I totally concur, "Anything above Westchester is a schlep, and a schlep is Upstate."
/sez the "Born in Buffalo" Gal
posted by droplet at 1:03 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hmm. One can get to Yonkers in 10 minutes on the Westchester Bee-Line bus Rt. 20 from the Bedford Park 4 train station in the Bronx, so I'd say no, Yonkers is not upstate.
As one of the commenters on Gothamist is saying, and I totally concur, "Anything above Westchester is a schlep, and a schlep is Upstate."
/sez the "Born in Buffalo" Gal
posted by droplet at 1:03 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The dividing line between upstate and everything else is Dutchess/Sullivan/Ulster counties.
(my qualifications: 38+ years living in Rochester, ~4 years college in Dutchess Co.)
posted by Lucinda at 1:09 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
(my qualifications: 38+ years living in Rochester, ~4 years college in Dutchess Co.)
posted by Lucinda at 1:09 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
6. Ontario Plain: similar to southern Canada
So, Laurence M. Hauptman, SUNY Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History, to bring some sophistication to the concept of "Upstate New York", you've defined one region of that state, measuring approximately 3000 square miles, by referencing a nebulously-defined portion of the second largest country in the world. Kudos.
That minor nit-pick aside, I've always wondered what Upstate meant, so now I guess I was confused for a reason.
posted by cardboard at 1:09 PM on April 7, 2016
So, Laurence M. Hauptman, SUNY Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History, to bring some sophistication to the concept of "Upstate New York", you've defined one region of that state, measuring approximately 3000 square miles, by referencing a nebulously-defined portion of the second largest country in the world. Kudos.
That minor nit-pick aside, I've always wondered what Upstate meant, so now I guess I was confused for a reason.
posted by cardboard at 1:09 PM on April 7, 2016
But Yonkers is totally upstate though, right?
Hmm. One can get to Yonkers in 10 minutes on the Westchester Bee-Line bus Rt. 20 from the Bedford Park 4 train station in the Bronx, so I'd say no, Yonkers is not upstate.
Yeah, I was going for sarcasm; Yonkers isn't upstate by any reasonable definition. Though I guess in a world where people think that upstate starts at 14th street...
posted by Itaxpica at 1:10 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hmm. One can get to Yonkers in 10 minutes on the Westchester Bee-Line bus Rt. 20 from the Bedford Park 4 train station in the Bronx, so I'd say no, Yonkers is not upstate.
Yeah, I was going for sarcasm; Yonkers isn't upstate by any reasonable definition. Though I guess in a world where people think that upstate starts at 14th street...
posted by Itaxpica at 1:10 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
As someone who has never set foot in New York I imagine it to be "everything that isn't NYC" the same way "Southern Illinois" is "everything that isn't Chicago"
I'm a former Chicagoan and current New Yorker (to be clear, NYC resident)! To me:
- Upstate New York: New York State north of Westchester and Rockland (option B in the Gothamist article)
- Downstate Illinois: Everything in IL that is not Cook, DuPage, Lake, McHenry, Will, Kane and Kendall. Basically it excludes all the counties that Metra serves as well as Kendall (which has no Metra service, but is next to Aurora and Naperville which are definitely not "downstate")
- Southern Illinois: way farther south/the southern third of the state, starting somewhere around St Louis' latitude
I'm not sure why I have the "commuter rail" definition for Chicago but the closer-in definition for New York. I do feel pretty strongly that Westchester or at least the southern part of it is not upstate, given that I can walk to it from the northern terminals of the 2 and 5 trains.
posted by andrewesque at 1:10 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a former Chicagoan and current New Yorker (to be clear, NYC resident)! To me:
- Upstate New York: New York State north of Westchester and Rockland (option B in the Gothamist article)
- Downstate Illinois: Everything in IL that is not Cook, DuPage, Lake, McHenry, Will, Kane and Kendall. Basically it excludes all the counties that Metra serves as well as Kendall (which has no Metra service, but is next to Aurora and Naperville which are definitely not "downstate")
- Southern Illinois: way farther south/the southern third of the state, starting somewhere around St Louis' latitude
I'm not sure why I have the "commuter rail" definition for Chicago but the closer-in definition for New York. I do feel pretty strongly that Westchester or at least the southern part of it is not upstate, given that I can walk to it from the northern terminals of the 2 and 5 trains.
posted by andrewesque at 1:10 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lifelong Central / Western New Yorker here. I find that the word "Upstate" is a lot like the word "Yankee." You use it differently depending on who you're talking to.
I wouldn't say I lived in Upstate New York to someone from Jefferson County, but I would say it to someone from, say, the UK.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't say I lived in Upstate New York to someone from Jefferson County, but I would say it to someone from, say, the UK.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Some people define it as "20 miles south/east of where I am", some people define it as "20 miles north/west of where I am". We just need to find two of those people who live 40 miles apart, and there's your line.
posted by Etrigan at 1:16 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by Etrigan at 1:16 PM on April 7, 2016
But Yonkers is totally upstate though, right?
Oh, obviously. OBVIOUSLY.
in a world where people think that upstate starts at 14th street
In a world...
posted by clockzero at 1:18 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, obviously. OBVIOUSLY.
in a world where people think that upstate starts at 14th street
In a world...
posted by clockzero at 1:18 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thank you andrewesque.
Oh, and upstate NY is anything north of Pollepel Island. Because I say so.
posted by Wretch729 at 1:18 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, and upstate NY is anything north of Pollepel Island. Because I say so.
posted by Wretch729 at 1:18 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
6. Ontario Plain: similar to southern Canada
So, Laurence M. Hauptman, SUNY Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History, to bring some sophistication to the concept of "Upstate New York", you've defined one region of that state, measuring approximately 3000 square miles, by referencing a nebulously-defined portion of the second largest country in the world. Kudos.
Though as someone who frequently drives up to that part of the state, there's something to it. The accent is as flat as W. Ontario and upper Great Plains, that's for sure. Very different from the rest of NY state.
And also because every other car on the Thruway west of Utica has Ontario license plates and is driving like a bat out of hell.
posted by aught at 1:21 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, Laurence M. Hauptman, SUNY Distinguished Professor Emeritus of History, to bring some sophistication to the concept of "Upstate New York", you've defined one region of that state, measuring approximately 3000 square miles, by referencing a nebulously-defined portion of the second largest country in the world. Kudos.
Though as someone who frequently drives up to that part of the state, there's something to it. The accent is as flat as W. Ontario and upper Great Plains, that's for sure. Very different from the rest of NY state.
And also because every other car on the Thruway west of Utica has Ontario license plates and is driving like a bat out of hell.
posted by aught at 1:21 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Born and raised on Long Island, came to Rochester to go to school and never left. It was then I learned there was upstate and then there was upstate. I mean it's a 360 mile drive on the Thruway from here to NYC. When I hear someone on Law & Order call Westchester "upstate" I can't help but laugh. You people have no idea.
posted by tommasz at 1:23 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 1:23 PM on April 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
I wouldn't say I lived in Upstate New York to someone from Jefferson County, but I would say it to someone from, say, the UK.
Well, but you kinda have to, because folks from outside the Northeast U.S. hear "New York" and assume you live in Manhattan unless it's explained to them. Though it's often fun to play with that misconception too.
posted by aught at 1:24 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, but you kinda have to, because folks from outside the Northeast U.S. hear "New York" and assume you live in Manhattan unless it's explained to them. Though it's often fun to play with that misconception too.
posted by aught at 1:24 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I do know that upstate, funk you up, upstate funk you up.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:25 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:25 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Pollepel Island
I never knew it had a name other than Bannerman's Island (grew up kind of within sight of it).
posted by aught at 1:27 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I never knew it had a name other than Bannerman's Island (grew up kind of within sight of it).
posted by aught at 1:27 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seems like some people are taking "upstate" to mean "upstate from here." But no, it means "upstate from NYC."
I went to college in Schenectady, NY, and anyone who'd claim that the Albany area isn't "upstate" has their head up their ass. "Upstate" doesn't automatically mean rural, y'know. It just means "not part of NYC."
IMO, YMMV.
posted by explosion at 1:28 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I went to college in Schenectady, NY, and anyone who'd claim that the Albany area isn't "upstate" has their head up their ass. "Upstate" doesn't automatically mean rural, y'know. It just means "not part of NYC."
IMO, YMMV.
posted by explosion at 1:28 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
New York is at least 8 states in one:
1. Maritime Long Island: Suffolk County, historically New England
2. New York City: ethnic, diverse New York
3. Hudson Valley: east bank, historically New England
4. Adirondack, New York and Tug Hill Plain: forest dweller individualists
5. Western New York: Midwest Western New York
6. Ontario Plain: similar to southern Canada
7. Mohawk Valley
8. Delaware Valley through Southern Tier: similar to northern Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio
.... and Ithaca.
posted by yeolcoatl at 1:29 PM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
1. Maritime Long Island: Suffolk County, historically New England
2. New York City: ethnic, diverse New York
3. Hudson Valley: east bank, historically New England
4. Adirondack, New York and Tug Hill Plain: forest dweller individualists
5. Western New York: Midwest Western New York
6. Ontario Plain: similar to southern Canada
7. Mohawk Valley
8. Delaware Valley through Southern Tier: similar to northern Pennsylvania and eastern Ohio
.... and Ithaca.
posted by yeolcoatl at 1:29 PM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I mean it's a 360 mile drive on the Thruway from here to NYC.
I'm from Boston, and intimately familiar with roads like the Southeast Expressway. My college roommate lives in Utica (went to Alfred University, in the awesome Southern Tier). When I was on the Thruway driving to her house, I called her and said "I'm only two exits away, I should be there any minute." She burst out laughing.
Pollepel Island
Kind of baffled why no one has gentrified the fuck out of the whole thing.
posted by Melismata at 1:30 PM on April 7, 2016
I'm from Boston, and intimately familiar with roads like the Southeast Expressway. My college roommate lives in Utica (went to Alfred University, in the awesome Southern Tier). When I was on the Thruway driving to her house, I called her and said "I'm only two exits away, I should be there any minute." She burst out laughing.
Pollepel Island
Kind of baffled why no one has gentrified the fuck out of the whole thing.
posted by Melismata at 1:30 PM on April 7, 2016
you've defined one region of that state, measuring approximately 3000 square miles, by referencing a nebulously-defined portion of the second largest country in the world. Kudos.
And yet both groups think Cleveland is in something called the "Midwest" when Cleveland is closer to Washington DC than Chicago; closer to Baltimore MD than Milwaukee; closer to New York City NY than St. Louis;
And it's closer to Portland ME or Montauk Pt. NY than Des Moines or Minneapolis;
closer to Quoddy Head ME (the easternmost point in the continental US) than Wichita, Lincoln, Sioux Falls, or Fargo; closer to Halifax NS than Oklahoma City; or Pierre, SD; or Bismark, ND;
In fact it's closer to Polar Bear Park on Hudson Bay than the capital cities of Oklahoma, North Dakota, and South Dakota) and closer to Bermuda than Scottsbluff, NE.
But then perhaps Cleveland is a southern town, since it's closer to Lexington, Raleigh, Charlotte, and Nashville than St. Louis; closer to Atlanta than Des Moines; closer to Birmingham than Kansas City, Minneapolis, or Omaha; closer to New Orleans than the capitals of Oklahoma, South Dakota, or North Dakota; and closer to Miami, FL than Mt Rushmore.
"The Midwest", ha. I'm sure not gonna get worked up over "upstate New York".
posted by Herodios at 1:32 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
And yet both groups think Cleveland is in something called the "Midwest" when Cleveland is closer to Washington DC than Chicago; closer to Baltimore MD than Milwaukee; closer to New York City NY than St. Louis;
And it's closer to Portland ME or Montauk Pt. NY than Des Moines or Minneapolis;
closer to Quoddy Head ME (the easternmost point in the continental US) than Wichita, Lincoln, Sioux Falls, or Fargo; closer to Halifax NS than Oklahoma City; or Pierre, SD; or Bismark, ND;
In fact it's closer to Polar Bear Park on Hudson Bay than the capital cities of Oklahoma, North Dakota, and South Dakota) and closer to Bermuda than Scottsbluff, NE.
But then perhaps Cleveland is a southern town, since it's closer to Lexington, Raleigh, Charlotte, and Nashville than St. Louis; closer to Atlanta than Des Moines; closer to Birmingham than Kansas City, Minneapolis, or Omaha; closer to New Orleans than the capitals of Oklahoma, South Dakota, or North Dakota; and closer to Miami, FL than Mt Rushmore.
"The Midwest", ha. I'm sure not gonna get worked up over "upstate New York".
posted by Herodios at 1:32 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I do know that upstate, funk you up, upstate funk you up.
You would like it upstate, it's quiet upstate
posted by Itaxpica at 1:34 PM on April 7, 2016
You would like it upstate, it's quiet upstate
posted by Itaxpica at 1:34 PM on April 7, 2016
Well, in regards to NYC, everything else is really sidestate.
posted by valkane at 1:36 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by valkane at 1:36 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Kind of baffled why no one has gentrified the fuck out of the whole thing.
They'd have to wrastle it away from the state park service, I think. It'd require some sort of corruption or kick-back, which would never happen in NY.
posted by aught at 1:38 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
They'd have to wrastle it away from the state park service, I think. It'd require some sort of corruption or kick-back, which would never happen in NY.
posted by aught at 1:38 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Upstate New York is the part of the state where the midwest seeps in. Once you have that nailed down, you're all set.
posted by Hactar at 1:45 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Hactar at 1:45 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cleveland most definitely is in the midwest as defined by the US Census Bureau. It just happens to be on the Eastern edge.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:46 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:46 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am so old that I can recall that I was told, living in Manhattan, never bother to date a girl living in Brooklyn because it was like going overseas.
posted by Postroad at 1:46 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 1:46 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Everything above 14th Street is upstate to me
People who say these things are in the terminal stages of being parochial NYC-centric idiots. They've spent so much time living in and absorbing the cultural and industrial pollutants of the NYC area that they've turned partially into caricatures of New Yorkers.
I actually hear that shit way more from transplants like myself, they moved to Brooklyn four years ago and are wayyy too eager to sound all cool and city-jaded. I always want to respond by patting them on the head and telling them "I see how hard you are trying! I think it is so great that you are trying hard at something!!!"
posted by windbox at 1:49 PM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
People who say these things are in the terminal stages of being parochial NYC-centric idiots. They've spent so much time living in and absorbing the cultural and industrial pollutants of the NYC area that they've turned partially into caricatures of New Yorkers.
I actually hear that shit way more from transplants like myself, they moved to Brooklyn four years ago and are wayyy too eager to sound all cool and city-jaded. I always want to respond by patting them on the head and telling them "I see how hard you are trying! I think it is so great that you are trying hard at something!!!"
posted by windbox at 1:49 PM on April 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
I live about an 40 minutes south of Buffalo, in Chautauqua County. Otherwise knon as Western NY, or part of the Sourthern Tier. Certainly not upstate. That's Adirondacks, or Albany :)
posted by triage_lazarus at 1:50 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by triage_lazarus at 1:50 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I thought this was a helpful roundup. I read a lot of papers breaking out NY regions and they're always drawn different ways. For a lot of analyses, "downstate" makes some sense, variously defined as Westchester + Hudson Valley + Long Island.
IAANY, IANYNY, SOUSNYCAAP, but HAIRSPLITTING
I am a New Yorker; I am not your New Yorker; sick of the ubiquitous Steinberg New Yorker cover and accompanying provincialism; but honestly, Albany is really south? Please. Like I’d take trains in? No good.
posted by miles per flower at 1:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
IAANY, IANYNY, SOUSNYCAAP, but HAIRSPLITTING
I am a New Yorker; I am not your New Yorker; sick of the ubiquitous Steinberg New Yorker cover and accompanying provincialism; but honestly, Albany is really south? Please. Like I’d take trains in? No good.
posted by miles per flower at 1:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Since we're discussing Cleveland and the Midwest, I'm of the (minority, I'm sure) opinion that if it's west of the Mississippi, it's not the Midwest. We have a name for that area, and we call it the Great Plains. The Midwest is limited to states carved out of the Northwest Territory: North of the Ohio, East of the Mississippi.
posted by enjoymoreradio at 1:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by enjoymoreradio at 1:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I live about an 40 minutes south of Buffalo, in Chautauqua County. Otherwise knon as Western NY, or part of the Sourthern Tier. Certainly not upstate. That's Adirondacks, or Albany :)
Heh. That reminds me of the guy in New Orleans who once told me they were too far south to be part of The South.
posted by aught at 2:01 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Heh. That reminds me of the guy in New Orleans who once told me they were too far south to be part of The South.
posted by aught at 2:01 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I went to a Uniqlo store in CT and was told there was a store in upstate NY at the Palisades Mall, and I laughed soooooooo hard
posted by Lucinda at 2:01 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Lucinda at 2:01 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
And yet both groups think Cleveland is in something called the "Midwest" when Cleveland is closer to Washington DC than Chicago; closer to Baltimore MD than Milwaukee; closer to New York City NY than St. Louis;
Well, I grew up in a part of Ohio that people barely know exists, so I enjoy a good "Is this part of the Midwest?" debate as much as anyone (almost as much as I enjoy "Is this Appalachia?"), but in the case of Cleveland, there's something beyond sheer physical distance between Cleveland and DC, specifically a mountain range that created some pretty sharp cultural divisions between one side and the other because for a couple hundred years it was actually quite a project to cross them. Hell, it's still a bit of a project now if you're traveling on the ground via car or train.
Broadly speaking, these regional divisions are as much cultural things as strict physical geography, and I think you'll find that despite the relative distances, the culture of Cleveland is more similar to Milwaukee than Baltimore and to St. Louis than New York City. That cultural similarity is what people are getting at when they're trying to define "the Midwest" much more than figuring out what the nearest metropolis to Fargo, Topeka, or Terre Haute is.
posted by Copronymus at 2:02 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, I grew up in a part of Ohio that people barely know exists, so I enjoy a good "Is this part of the Midwest?" debate as much as anyone (almost as much as I enjoy "Is this Appalachia?"), but in the case of Cleveland, there's something beyond sheer physical distance between Cleveland and DC, specifically a mountain range that created some pretty sharp cultural divisions between one side and the other because for a couple hundred years it was actually quite a project to cross them. Hell, it's still a bit of a project now if you're traveling on the ground via car or train.
Broadly speaking, these regional divisions are as much cultural things as strict physical geography, and I think you'll find that despite the relative distances, the culture of Cleveland is more similar to Milwaukee than Baltimore and to St. Louis than New York City. That cultural similarity is what people are getting at when they're trying to define "the Midwest" much more than figuring out what the nearest metropolis to Fargo, Topeka, or Terre Haute is.
posted by Copronymus at 2:02 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Just ask "ShopRite or Wegmans?" and if the answer is "ShopRite" you're not upstate.
posted by delicious-luncheon at 2:05 PM on April 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by delicious-luncheon at 2:05 PM on April 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Pollepel Island
Kind of baffled why no one has gentrified the fuck out of the whole thing.
posted by Melismata
Obviously the North American Confederacy of Witches, Wizards, and Magical Beings has heavily warded the island. What with the school and the jobberknoll preserve and all, can't have muggles wandering in. You think that explosion in 1920 was improper munitions storage? Ha!
(The island seems to have been used as inspiration in a bunch of different books, if you believe the Wikipedia page, including Lev Grossman's The Magicians. The Potterverse school is just supposed to be somewhere vaguely in the Hudson valley but honestly where else would they put it?)
posted by Wretch729 at 2:23 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Kind of baffled why no one has gentrified the fuck out of the whole thing.
posted by Melismata
Obviously the North American Confederacy of Witches, Wizards, and Magical Beings has heavily warded the island. What with the school and the jobberknoll preserve and all, can't have muggles wandering in. You think that explosion in 1920 was improper munitions storage? Ha!
(The island seems to have been used as inspiration in a bunch of different books, if you believe the Wikipedia page, including Lev Grossman's The Magicians. The Potterverse school is just supposed to be somewhere vaguely in the Hudson valley but honestly where else would they put it?)
posted by Wretch729 at 2:23 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
enjoymoreradio: "Since we're discussing Cleveland and the Midwest, I'm of the (minority, I'm sure) opinion that if it's west of the Mississippi, it's not the Midwest. We have a name for that area, and we call it the Great Plains. The Midwest is limited to states carved out of the Northwest Territory: North of the Ohio, East of the Mississippi."
I love this game. I grant you Kansas/Nebraska/South Dakota are not Midwestern (no matter what their inhabitants say), but what about Iowa? And how about Minnesota, which is partly east of the Mississippi and partly carved out of the Northwest Territory.
I have a good friend from Oklahoma who insists it's Midwestern. I just don't know what to say to that.
posted by crazy with stars at 2:31 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love this game. I grant you Kansas/Nebraska/South Dakota are not Midwestern (no matter what their inhabitants say), but what about Iowa? And how about Minnesota, which is partly east of the Mississippi and partly carved out of the Northwest Territory.
I have a good friend from Oklahoma who insists it's Midwestern. I just don't know what to say to that.
posted by crazy with stars at 2:31 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
As it happens, we're traveling to the Adirondacks this summer. Coincidentally, I mentioned this in passing to a young fellow here (in Cleveland today) just this morning, and he was entirely unfamiliar with both terms: "the Adirondacks" and "up-state New York".
posted by Herodios at 2:33 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by Herodios at 2:33 PM on April 7, 2016
I grew up in Columbia County, and when I tell people where I say "if you're not a New Yorker, 'upstate'. If you are a New Yorker, then..."
So seeing option "c) Everything above Dutchess County" is like "pshaw, this was written by someone who lives in Queens." Eyeroll.
posted by straw at 2:52 PM on April 7, 2016
So seeing option "c) Everything above Dutchess County" is like "pshaw, this was written by someone who lives in Queens." Eyeroll.
posted by straw at 2:52 PM on April 7, 2016
in the case of Cleveland, there's something beyond sheer physical distance between Cleveland and DC, specifically a mountain range that created some pretty sharp cultural divisions . . . That cultural similarity is what people are getting at when they're trying to define "the Midwest" much more than figuring out what the nearest metropolis to Fargo, Topeka, or Terre Haute is.
Well Boston and New York City are less than two hundred miles apart -- closer than Cincinnati and Cleveland -- with no more mountain ranges or other physical barriers in between that do the two Ohio towns. And they've had almost two centuries longer to assimilate. So I am sure all the Bostonians and New Yorkers on this forum will agree that the cultures of the two towns are very similar.
posted by Herodios at 2:53 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well Boston and New York City are less than two hundred miles apart -- closer than Cincinnati and Cleveland -- with no more mountain ranges or other physical barriers in between that do the two Ohio towns. And they've had almost two centuries longer to assimilate. So I am sure all the Bostonians and New Yorkers on this forum will agree that the cultures of the two towns are very similar.
posted by Herodios at 2:53 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
As far as I'm concerned, Upstate starts at the northern Bronx county line, New Jersey and starts at Staten Island.
Then again, some people consider the part of Queens I live in to be Long Island.
posted by SansPoint at 2:56 PM on April 7, 2016
Then again, some people consider the part of Queens I live in to be Long Island.
posted by SansPoint at 2:56 PM on April 7, 2016
I'm from Delaware country originally and let me tell you, that place despite being south of albany is UPSTATE AS FUCK. It's incredibly rural and stuck in the 1930s because of NYC watershed laws. I think generally anything in or above the borscht belt is upstate.
posted by Ferreous at 3:04 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by Ferreous at 3:04 PM on April 7, 2016
I use a definition I borrowed from Joscelyn Godwin's Upstate Cauldron- “Upstate begins where the magnetism of New York City no longer affects the mental compass.”
posted by zamboni at 3:11 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 3:11 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
The idea that upstate starts where Metro North stops makes sense to me, both intuitively and practically. Between that point and the City is merely upriver.
posted by Capt. Renault at 3:16 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Capt. Renault at 3:16 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Upstate New York is the part of the state where the midwest seeps in. Once you have that nailed down, you're all set.
I grew up about halfway between Rochester and Buffalo, and I remember seeing tee shirts which said "Welcome to Rochester: The Midwest of the Northeast". I didn't get it until I went to school in Philly.
posted by frumiousb at 3:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I grew up about halfway between Rochester and Buffalo, and I remember seeing tee shirts which said "Welcome to Rochester: The Midwest of the Northeast". I didn't get it until I went to school in Philly.
posted by frumiousb at 3:52 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
So I am sure all the Bostonians and New Yorkers on this forum will agree that the cultures of the two towns are very similar.
Having lived in Boston, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles, I will call your bluff and say that yes, the cultures of Boston and New York are on a comparative basis more similar to each other than either one is to Cleveland, Chicago or Los Angeles, the first two of which I'd put in, yes, the "Midwest" and the last one on the West Coast.
The absolute size of a geographic area doesn't mean it's not a valid name. No one's saying that "Siberia" is not a valid descriptor just because it's super big!
posted by andrewesque at 4:22 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Having lived in Boston, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles, I will call your bluff and say that yes, the cultures of Boston and New York are on a comparative basis more similar to each other than either one is to Cleveland, Chicago or Los Angeles, the first two of which I'd put in, yes, the "Midwest" and the last one on the West Coast.
The absolute size of a geographic area doesn't mean it's not a valid name. No one's saying that "Siberia" is not a valid descriptor just because it's super big!
posted by andrewesque at 4:22 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I grew up in Rockland after moving there from NYC pretty early on, and when I started hanging out in the city on weekends in my teens I definitely met some people who to varying degrees of facetiousness considered that "upstate." Which drove me nuts, because the the closest grocery store to my house was in fucking New Jersey!
...that said, I totally think of Duchess County and beyond as upstate.
posted by invitapriore at 4:39 PM on April 7, 2016
...that said, I totally think of Duchess County and beyond as upstate.
posted by invitapriore at 4:39 PM on April 7, 2016
I'm from Boston, and intimately familiar with roads like the Southeast Expressway. My college roommate lives in Utica (went to Alfred University, in the awesome Southern Tier). When I was on the Thruway driving to her house, I called her and said "I'm only two exits away, I should be there any minute." She burst out laughing.
Do they still have the exits numbered sequentially, rather than by milepost like on basically every other freeway in the country? That used to really irk me when I drove through.
As an outsider, I always thought of "upstate" as being more of a socioeconomic designation rather than primarily geographic. There are pockets of wealth upstate, but they are surrounded by vast swaths of depressed landscape where the industry has left, the farming collapsed, and people look like they are barely holding on through the winter.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:42 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do they still have the exits numbered sequentially, rather than by milepost like on basically every other freeway in the country? That used to really irk me when I drove through.
As an outsider, I always thought of "upstate" as being more of a socioeconomic designation rather than primarily geographic. There are pockets of wealth upstate, but they are surrounded by vast swaths of depressed landscape where the industry has left, the farming collapsed, and people look like they are barely holding on through the winter.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:42 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
'Upstate' is really a state of mind.
posted by newdaddy at 4:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by newdaddy at 4:44 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Has anyone in this Cleveland conversation ever actually been there? You know that people there do in fact consider themselves part of the Northeast? I don't know much about Cleveland, but I'd be curious to learn what they think links them more to New York than to Chicago.
posted by crazy with stars at 4:47 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by crazy with stars at 4:47 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
As a long-time New York City dweller, I see the rest of New York State as a bunch of right-wing psychopaths whose sole purpose in life to is to repurpose our tax money away from teaching our large number of kids and into their pockets to teach a small number of theirs.
I am aware that this belief is deeply biased - indeed, I have many individuals from upstate who are dear friends. But pending any evidence that upstaters en masse aren't, in fact, financially dishonest psychos, and given the huge amount of evidence that they are, I'm not going to be able to change my mind, antisocial though my beliefs may be.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:57 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am aware that this belief is deeply biased - indeed, I have many individuals from upstate who are dear friends. But pending any evidence that upstaters en masse aren't, in fact, financially dishonest psychos, and given the huge amount of evidence that they are, I'm not going to be able to change my mind, antisocial though my beliefs may be.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 4:57 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Do they still have the exits numbered sequentially, rather than by milepost like on basically every other freeway in the country? That used to really irk me when I drove through.
Not only do they have the exits numbered sequentially but they're so religiously adherent to the concept that exit 23C on 495 is closer to exit 24 and a mile away from 23A-B. It's absolutely maddening.
posted by Talez at 4:59 PM on April 7, 2016
Not only do they have the exits numbered sequentially but they're so religiously adherent to the concept that exit 23C on 495 is closer to exit 24 and a mile away from 23A-B. It's absolutely maddening.
posted by Talez at 4:59 PM on April 7, 2016
Do they still have the exits numbered sequentially, rather than by milepost like on basically every other freeway in the country? That used to really irk me when I drove through.
Indeed yes. Same thing exists for the Massachusetts Turnpike (also Interstate Route 90). Anything else baffles me. "Hey, now I have no way of knowing what the next exit number is. Why do I need to know the milepost? I can just look up the distances online!" etc.
posted by Melismata at 5:04 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Indeed yes. Same thing exists for the Massachusetts Turnpike (also Interstate Route 90). Anything else baffles me. "Hey, now I have no way of knowing what the next exit number is. Why do I need to know the milepost? I can just look up the distances online!" etc.
posted by Melismata at 5:04 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, and just as an aside: that little piece of Route 90 that goes through Albany, instead of staying on the Thruway, drives me CRAZY, because I have Asperger's or OCD or something.
posted by Melismata at 5:06 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by Melismata at 5:06 PM on April 7, 2016
I grew up in Buffalo and consider anything past the Susquehanna to be downstate.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:10 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by everybody had matching towels at 5:10 PM on April 7, 2016
It's where the prisons are.
Hence the phrase "up the river" - it's up the Hudson River from New York City to Sing Sing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hence the phrase "up the river" - it's up the Hudson River from New York City to Sing Sing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Speaking as someone who frequently had to drive from Long Island to Ithaca, Bear Mountain. And Long Island is *not* upstate. If you don't understand that, read this.
posted by acrasis at 5:38 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by acrasis at 5:38 PM on April 7, 2016
As a long-time New York City dweller, I see the rest of New York State as a bunch of right-wing psychopaths whose sole purpose in life to is to repurpose our tax money away from teaching our large number of kids and into their pockets to teach a small number of theirs.
I am aware that this belief is deeply biased - indeed, I have many individuals from upstate who are dear friends. But pending any evidence that upstaters en masse aren't, in fact, financially dishonest psychos, and given the huge amount of evidence that they are, I'm not going to be able to change my mind, antisocial though my beliefs may be.
This is entirely unfair. Parents living upstate have concerns about the education (and health and safety and job prospects) of their kids also - not just New York City parents. The public school that I took all my grades in (K-12, all in the same building) is now closed - more for lack of money than lack of students. The beautiful edifice itself, that I mostly grew up in, was sold off, and is now a center for 'horse therapy' and Bible camp for teens with substance abuse problems.
posted by newdaddy at 5:47 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am aware that this belief is deeply biased - indeed, I have many individuals from upstate who are dear friends. But pending any evidence that upstaters en masse aren't, in fact, financially dishonest psychos, and given the huge amount of evidence that they are, I'm not going to be able to change my mind, antisocial though my beliefs may be.
This is entirely unfair. Parents living upstate have concerns about the education (and health and safety and job prospects) of their kids also - not just New York City parents. The public school that I took all my grades in (K-12, all in the same building) is now closed - more for lack of money than lack of students. The beautiful edifice itself, that I mostly grew up in, was sold off, and is now a center for 'horse therapy' and Bible camp for teens with substance abuse problems.
posted by newdaddy at 5:47 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been to Cleveland at least twice and driven by it more times than I can count. They have Waffle House there. It is not the East Coast.
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:48 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by grumpybear69 at 5:48 PM on April 7, 2016
As a long-time New York City dweller, I see the rest of New York State as a bunch of right-wing psychopaths
Funny, for most of my sentient existence New York City has been cheerfully electing right-wing psychopaths as mayors.
posted by enn at 5:55 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Funny, for most of my sentient existence New York City has been cheerfully electing right-wing psychopaths as mayors.
posted by enn at 5:55 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I see the rest of New York State as a bunch of right-wing psychopaths
Every year I go to the New York State Fair in Syracuse. In the vendors' area, I'm always startled by two vendors: 1) the pro-life group, which often has pictures of bloody babies; 2) a strange DVD bootleg reseller, which has many old movies like "Song of the South" that are quite racist. And I actually know someone in Utica who's a Trump supporter.
Having said that, the rest of my friends in the state are normal, socially liberal human beings. A complicated place, like all the states.
posted by Melismata at 6:03 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Every year I go to the New York State Fair in Syracuse. In the vendors' area, I'm always startled by two vendors: 1) the pro-life group, which often has pictures of bloody babies; 2) a strange DVD bootleg reseller, which has many old movies like "Song of the South" that are quite racist. And I actually know someone in Utica who's a Trump supporter.
Having said that, the rest of my friends in the state are normal, socially liberal human beings. A complicated place, like all the states.
posted by Melismata at 6:03 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
there are pro life groups everywhere. They are certainly not limited to upstate.
And believe me, I've lived all across the US, upstate NY is a god damn liberal mecca compared to some other rural places.
posted by Ferreous at 6:15 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
And believe me, I've lived all across the US, upstate NY is a god damn liberal mecca compared to some other rural places.
posted by Ferreous at 6:15 PM on April 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Same thing exists for the Massachusetts Turnpike (also Interstate Route 90).
Massachusetts recently lost it's exemption for sequentially-numbered exits. During the next round of routine highway sign replacements, the exits will be renumbered.
Incidentally, the Boston area used to have a truly bizarre system of numbering the exits on area highways such that Route 128 was always "Exit 25" with numbers increasing as you traveled away from the city. Most of these exists have since been renumbered (often painfully, which is why most Boston-area residents don't bother referring to exist numbers) but US-3 still meets I-95 in Burlington at "Exit 25".
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:25 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Massachusetts recently lost it's exemption for sequentially-numbered exits. During the next round of routine highway sign replacements, the exits will be renumbered.
Incidentally, the Boston area used to have a truly bizarre system of numbering the exits on area highways such that Route 128 was always "Exit 25" with numbers increasing as you traveled away from the city. Most of these exists have since been renumbered (often painfully, which is why most Boston-area residents don't bother referring to exist numbers) but US-3 still meets I-95 in Burlington at "Exit 25".
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:25 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well Boston and New York City are less than two hundred miles apart -- closer than Cincinnati and Cleveland -- with no more mountain ranges or other physical barriers in between that do the two Ohio towns.
The line doesn't go directly to New York City, but there was enough of a physical barrier separating Massachusetts from upstate New York to justify digging the longest tunnel east of the Rocky Mountains (and second longest in the world when it was completed in 1875) under almost five miles of mountain.
Rounding Cape Cod when traveling from Boston to New York City was also dangerous enough to warrant digging the Cape Cod Canal after several plans for more inland canals linking Massachusetts Bay with Narragansett Bay were seriously considered.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:45 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The line doesn't go directly to New York City, but there was enough of a physical barrier separating Massachusetts from upstate New York to justify digging the longest tunnel east of the Rocky Mountains (and second longest in the world when it was completed in 1875) under almost five miles of mountain.
Rounding Cape Cod when traveling from Boston to New York City was also dangerous enough to warrant digging the Cape Cod Canal after several plans for more inland canals linking Massachusetts Bay with Narragansett Bay were seriously considered.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:45 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Look, I am in Cleveland right now, and I can tell you that in many ways the Midwest starts at the Cuyahoga. That's kie-a-HOG-ga.
Also upstate is from the Capitol District on up, except for Western New York which is honestly most of it.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:05 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also upstate is from the Capitol District on up, except for Western New York which is honestly most of it.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:05 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait if Kansas is not Midwest then what is it? Also upstate NYC encompasses the exact moment I get drunk on the bar car on my way to Utica from NYC.
posted by geoff. at 7:21 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by geoff. at 7:21 PM on April 7, 2016
As a long-time New York City dweller, I see the rest of New York State as a bunch of right-wing psychopaths
Heh, I spent my early childhood listening to my Dad rant about how New York City should break off into a new state because they were such a drain on the rest of us! Of course, I can't deny he had right-wing psychopath tendencies.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:35 PM on April 7, 2016
Heh, I spent my early childhood listening to my Dad rant about how New York City should break off into a new state because they were such a drain on the rest of us! Of course, I can't deny he had right-wing psychopath tendencies.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:35 PM on April 7, 2016
If I'm on I-90 somewhere I don't know much about and see I'm at milepost 67, then when someone says "you want exit 97" I have 30 miles or so to go.
posted by maxwelton at 7:41 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by maxwelton at 7:41 PM on April 7, 2016
Indeed yes. Same thing exists for the Massachusetts Turnpike (also Interstate Route 90). Anything else baffles me. "Hey, now I have no way of knowing what the next exit number is. Why do I need to know the milepost? I can just look up the distances online!" etc.
Do they renumber the entire highway when they add an exit?
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:02 PM on April 7, 2016
Do they renumber the entire highway when they add an exit?
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:02 PM on April 7, 2016
I don't trust any discussion of New York State that does not include the Finger Lakes. Not just Ithaca--there's a big chunk of state there which does not fit any of the other eight areas on that list, and it's spectacular.
posted by kinnakeet at 8:28 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by kinnakeet at 8:28 PM on April 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I grew up in Northern New York. Which is above Upstate and below Canada. The best demarcation I know of is the coverage area of North Country Public Radio.
posted by ethansr at 9:22 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ethansr at 9:22 PM on April 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
In the Sex and the City episode "Sex and the Country", Carrie goes up to Suffern, N.Y. -- a town situated mostly south of the 287, but portrayed as the middle of nowhere. She hates it, but concedes the town is well named.
posted by kurumi at 10:13 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by kurumi at 10:13 PM on April 7, 2016
I'm originally from suburban Buffalo; the term "upstate" was mostly foreign to me until I went to Cornell (in Ithaca) and the NYC kids all referred (derisively, we thought) to our whole group of Western New Yorkers as being from "upstate," and the idea that anyone would reference their location based on New York City instead of Canada was laughable to us. (If anything, we gave our reference points as how far we were from the good Chinese food in Fort Erie (Ontario).)
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:18 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 11:18 PM on April 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Do they renumber the entire highway when they add an exit?
Nah, they just stick a letter on the number of the previous exit. Hence Canastota is exit 34 but when Route 481 was extended and required access it was simply numbered 34A. There are other examples.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:34 AM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nah, they just stick a letter on the number of the previous exit. Hence Canastota is exit 34 but when Route 481 was extended and required access it was simply numbered 34A. There are other examples.
posted by kinnakeet at 3:34 AM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Speaking as a resident of the Mid Hudson, the proper designation of where "Upstate" begins should be the Croton-Harmon MetroNorth station on the Hudson Line. That's where you have to transfer to a different train to get to points further north when you catch the last train out of NYC at night, even though you are still on the same line. That my friends, is what turns a night in the city into a Schlep.
More broadly, I would say that "Upstate" for NYC residents is anyplace that is more than 45 minutes travel north of Midtown Manhattan by car or train (assume local, all stops for train travel). The running joke my friends and I in northern Orange County have about NYC folks who come up this way is that anything north of Yonkers to them represents a foray into the heart of the untamed wilderness. They come up here fully expecting a trip back into the 19th century.
posted by KingEdRa at 5:20 AM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
More broadly, I would say that "Upstate" for NYC residents is anyplace that is more than 45 minutes travel north of Midtown Manhattan by car or train (assume local, all stops for train travel). The running joke my friends and I in northern Orange County have about NYC folks who come up this way is that anything north of Yonkers to them represents a foray into the heart of the untamed wilderness. They come up here fully expecting a trip back into the 19th century.
posted by KingEdRa at 5:20 AM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's where you have to transfer to a different train to get to points further north when you catch the last train out of NYC at night, even though you are still on the same line.
Or you make sure to get on a Hudson Line train that has a diesel engine locomotive from the get-go (the reason you need to switch is that electrification ends at Croton-Harmon.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:11 AM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Or you make sure to get on a Hudson Line train that has a diesel engine locomotive from the get-go (the reason you need to switch is that electrification ends at Croton-Harmon.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:11 AM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have to retract my statement re: Waffle House indicating midwestern-ness. It is more accurately a bouquet with Florida as the vase and Texas, Missouri, Michigan and Pennsylvania as its extremities.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:25 AM on April 8, 2016
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:25 AM on April 8, 2016
More broadly, I would say that "Upstate" for NYC residents is anyplace that is more than 45 minutes travel north of Midtown Manhattan by car or train (assume local, all stops for train travel)
45 minutes from Grand Central making all local stops barely gets you to Scarsdale on the Harlem Line. Hard pass. (And the musical "Forty-five Minutes from Broadway" is about New Rochelle.)
posted by thecaddy at 7:33 AM on April 8, 2016
45 minutes from Grand Central making all local stops barely gets you to Scarsdale on the Harlem Line. Hard pass. (And the musical "Forty-five Minutes from Broadway" is about New Rochelle.)
posted by thecaddy at 7:33 AM on April 8, 2016
I have to retract my statement re: Waffle House indicating midwestern-ness. It is more accurately a bouquet with Florida as the vase and Texas, Missouri, Michigan and Pennsylvania as its extremities.
There are no real Waffle Houses in Michigan. There are/were a place or two with that name, but they were unrelated and likely predated the rise of the chain and kept them from expanding into the state.
posted by Etrigan at 7:41 AM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are no real Waffle Houses in Michigan. There are/were a place or two with that name, but they were unrelated and likely predated the rise of the chain and kept them from expanding into the state.
posted by Etrigan at 7:41 AM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just ask "ShopRite or Wegmans?" and if the answer is "ShopRite" you're not upstate.
I like the idea conceptually but there are ShopRites in places like Liberty, Kingston, Schenectady, and Colonie.
posted by aught at 10:45 AM on April 8, 2016
I like the idea conceptually but there are ShopRites in places like Liberty, Kingston, Schenectady, and Colonie.
posted by aught at 10:45 AM on April 8, 2016
Wegmans territory (in New York, at least) starts way farther away from NYC than you might think. Any of the Wegmans in Maryland is closer to New York City than any of the Wegmans in New York state.
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just ask "Gristedes or Grand Union?" and if the answer isn't "What?" you're talking to an old.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:30 AM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:30 AM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just ask "Gristedes or Grand Union?" and if the answer isn't "What?" you're talking to an old.
S&H Green Stamps FTW yo.
posted by aught at 1:05 PM on April 8, 2016
S&H Green Stamps FTW yo.
posted by aught at 1:05 PM on April 8, 2016
What's real fucked up is that there was a god damn grand union open and operating in hancock till at least 2012. I remember driving through there and making my wife pull over so we could marvel at it. Hell, it even had the stained glass ceiling over the registers.
posted by Ferreous at 1:25 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ferreous at 1:25 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just ask "Gristedes or Grand Union?" and if the answer isn't "What?" you're talking to an old.
S&H Green Stamps FTW yo.
Unbind your mind, there is no time -- Boing!
To lick your stamps and paste them in
Dis-corporate, and we'll begin . . .
(Ours was more of a 'Top Value' household. Yo.)
posted by Herodios at 1:34 PM on April 8, 2016
S&H Green Stamps FTW yo.
Unbind your mind, there is no time -- Boing!
To lick your stamps and paste them in
Dis-corporate, and we'll begin . . .
(Ours was more of a 'Top Value' household. Yo.)
posted by Herodios at 1:34 PM on April 8, 2016
Just ask "Gristedes or Grand Union?" and if the answer isn't "What?" you're talking to an old.
You want old, ask about A&P.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:22 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
You want old, ask about A&P.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:22 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just ask "Gristedes or Grand Union?"
We used to call the Grand Union the Grand Onion. Doesn't take much to amuse us upstate yokels.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:27 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
We used to call the Grand Union the Grand Onion. Doesn't take much to amuse us upstate yokels.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:27 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
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posted by Lyme Drop at 12:11 PM on April 7, 2016 [8 favorites]