The ... white baseball player has always been a study in negative space
April 8, 2016 3:02 PM   Subscribe

He does not flip his bat after home runs. He does not insult the hard-working fans with talk about politics. He never takes more than one day at a time. As a result, he cannot exist without a foil to embody all those “flashy” or “hotheaded” or “provocative” things he is not. The foils, of course, have generally been black. But as the demographics of the sport have changed, so, too, has this dynamic.
- Jay Caspian Kang on The Unbearable Whiteness of Baseball , and the decline of the sport's cultural relevance
posted by AceRock (80 comments total) 14 users marked this as a favorite
 
John Rocker, anyone?
posted by glaucon at 3:12 PM on April 8, 2016


John Rocker, anyone?

It's been probably 15 or more years since I paid much attention to baseball, but yeah I definitely remember there being more Kenny Powers types back then than today. I remember David Wells saying a bunch of dumb stuff, too.

Anyways, you think baseball's bad for this, you should try hockey on. Ugh. It's like they somehow drain all traces of personality out of these guys.
posted by Hoopo at 3:22 PM on April 8, 2016


Just to preempt anyone who had the same reaction as me to the title (Cuba and Negro Leagues anyone, paging Cool Papa Bell to the thread!), read the piece first. It's more focused and thoughtful than that, largely about MLB's historic failures in its treatment of Black stars and more recently with Latino players.
posted by thetortoise at 3:24 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


This is pretty comprehensively dumb — especially the trend-piecey evidenceless question-begging about "cultural relevance" and the half-baked race-thinking — but I guess it's also typical enough of the stock sports-media-commentary talking points about these issues that it's no great surprise.

The decline in black faces in the Major Leagues coincided with a surge in Latino players

…many of whom have black faces, as Kang himself acknowledges just a few sentences earlier! Again, this is entirely typical, but worth pointing out anyhow. Every single one of these formulaic lamentations of the decline of African American baseball is weirdly premised on utter blindness to the mere existence of Afro-Latino people. I'm almost starting to suspect that the lamentation itself is somehow functioning as a proxy for an Anglo US anxiety about loss of cultural hegemony.

Vladimir Guerrero, the Clemente of the aughts, who hit and threw with a balletic violence, seemed to go through his entire career without a single memorable interview or profile.

You mean the Guerrero who was the subject of the single most memorable profile about this exact subject?
posted by RogerB at 3:25 PM on April 8, 2016 [15 favorites]


Chris Rock is a passionate baseball fan who gave a pretty good hot take on the subject.
posted by absalom at 3:31 PM on April 8, 2016 [13 favorites]


I've been told football is 'truthfully the only great American sport', and baseball belongs to the Japanese. (orly?) Plus the whole issue of watching men beat the shit out one another, which is why I won't go to weekend TV 'events' with people who watch The Big Game. The atmosphere is almost feral.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:53 PM on April 8, 2016


Wow, the incredible level of defensiveness in the NYT comments alone (don't read them, I know, I know) is sufficient to prove Kang's point. Press boxes full of bristling old men, indeed.
posted by thetortoise at 4:01 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


From Wikipedia entry on Sam Dyson:

On October 14, 2015, Dyson gave up the go-ahead three run homer to José Bautista in the bottom of the 7th inning of the deciding Game 5, ...In that inning he also got into a couple of altercations with Edwin Encarnacion and Troy Tulowitzki, which caused both benches to clear. The altercations were a direct reaction to Bautista's go-ahead home run, and events that took place in the top of that inning.

Funny, because on TV it just looked like Dyson was a petulant, nasty loser and who felt entitled and safe enough to start something (in a passive/agressive way).
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:03 PM on April 8, 2016


I love baseball. It's the only sport I follow. My family had partial season tickets for several seasons.

My take? Baseball has 162 games in the regular season. When I was a teenager, I was able to watch the vast majority of those games. Now as an adult with 2 kids (one on the way) a full time job, and a metric-ton of responsibilities both domestic and professional, I have no time. Baseball requires time. A lot of time. It's a commitment! Personally, I know very few people with 3 free hours a day, 7 days a week for 7 months of the year. It's like a part time job to follow baseball. Football requires 3 hours a week, usually on a Sunday. There is no comparison. I'm
guessing here, but maybe people watch a few innings when they can. That doesn't lend itself to massive Twitterable moments because you might be tuned into the 5th inning when all the action will take place in the 8th.

As far as younger people go, I'm not sure the pace of the game will capture this generation's attention. Either way, I don't really think race has much to do with baseball's perceived problems.
posted by Hop123 at 4:04 PM on April 8, 2016 [5 favorites]


Anyways, you think baseball's bad for this, you should try hockey on. Ugh. It's like they somehow drain all traces of personality out of these guys.

As a former sportswriter, I would rather attend and cover 100 hockey games before I had to venture into another baseball clubhouse.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:10 PM on April 8, 2016 [11 favorites]


Basically the fundamental question is, whose side were you on, Carlos Gomez or Brian McCann?

(The right answer is Carlos Gomez.)
posted by escabeche at 4:12 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


Vladimir Guerrero, the Clemente of the aughts, who hit and threw with a balletic violence, seemed to go through his entire career without a single memorable interview or profile.

How many major league baseball beat writers -- a lily-white and male profession if there ever was one -- speaks more than a few phrases of broken Spanish? I bet you could count them on one hand and still be able to order two more beers from across a crowded bar.

Meanwhile, I think "Martinez" is still the most common surname among MLB players.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:13 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


Vladimir Guerrero, the Clemente of the aughts, who hit and threw with a balletic violence, seemed to go through his entire career without a single memorable interview or profile.

You mean the Guerrero who was the subject of the single most memorable profile about this exact subject?
That entire piece laments that (at the time it was written) Guerrero was receiving basically no media attention despite his talent. I don't know why you're quoting it as if it's some sort of rebuttal to Kang's claim.
posted by Panthalassa at 4:17 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm almost starting to suspect that the lamentation itself is somehow functioning as a proxy for an Anglo US anxiety about loss of cultural hegemony

Strikes me as deeply unlikely coming from an author who writes
As I grew older and started feeling alienated from my white classmates, I gravitated toward athletes who, in some way, flouted the white, stoic traditions of American sports — Allen Iverson, Ken Griffey Jr., Rasheed Wallace, Pedro Martinez. I felt as if this was a moral choice.
posted by Panthalassa at 4:25 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]


Vladimir Guerrero played the first half of his career in Montreal. That alone can explain a lot of his being outside of the media spotlight.
posted by srboisvert at 4:28 PM on April 8, 2016 [7 favorites]


Now do hockey.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:41 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


Every single one of these formulaic lamentations of the decline of African American baseball is weirdly premised on utter blindness to the mere existence of Afro-Latino people.

Or perhaps viewing latinos who are black as being fungible with african americans is absurd and offensive.

When a group goes from being greater than 50% of players to less than 10% of your players in a generation there is a story there. Combine that with hot take bull Durham \field of dreams journalism there is a real story to be told about alienation.
posted by JPD at 4:53 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


lots to talk about here but dude deserves a high five for the second paragraph, where he briefly mentions The Beefy Efficiency of Trout
posted by suckerpunch at 4:58 PM on April 8, 2016


JPD: "When a group goes from being greater than 50% of players to less than 10% of your players in a generation"

You misread. The quote in question:
Last year, black players made up just over 8 percent of big-league rosters, down more than 50 percent from 1981.
It's 8 percent now, down from 16%. More detail on the actual numbers here.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 4:59 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]


Baseball has always had its share of certifiable flakes who defied conformity and remained popular -- Bill Lee, Tug McGraw, Rube Waddell, Rabbit Maranville, Germany Schaefer, Babe Herman, Dizzy Dean, Jim Bouton, Moe Drabowsky, Ryne Duran, Jimmy Piersall, Casey Stengel, Joe Pepitone, Mark Fidrych, one George Herman "Babe" Ruth.

Wait, they're all white guys? Let me start over.
posted by delfin at 5:08 PM on April 8, 2016


How many major league baseball beat writers -- a lily-white and male profession if there ever was one -- speaks more than a few phrases of broken Spanish?

This is an exceptionally good point. If you make it your life's work to write about baseball, you owe it to yourself to learn Spanish (it's not that hard as a second language, really) and Japanese (of which there are excellent language resources available, because anime and manga. Of which there is a lot about baseball.) It's the only way to get to know these awesome athletes as intimately as the readers deserve.

If they really want to cover the beat, learn some Korean, Dutch, Portuguese, Chinese and Italian, too. Baseball is not all-American. It's global.

When I was a teenager, I was able to watch the vast majority of those games. Now as an adult with 2 kids (one on the way) a full time job, and a metric-ton of responsibilities both domestic and professional, I have no time. Baseball requires time. A lot of time. It's a commitment!

I discovered it later in life, so I have a different experience, and different expectations.

It's easy to follow - the nature of the game means that the box scores can tell you the flow and essence of the game the next morning from the comforting glow of your smartphone. You drive someplace in the 6:30-9:00pm timeframe, flip on the radio and listen to Joe Castiglione call the play-by-plays or do color for a few innings. You wander down to the playground next to the developmental league field, and watch a few rising stars take their at-bats while your kid plays. You take the kids to the minor league stadium, buy them stadium food and foam-rubber pennants to watch has-beens and re-habbing stars take their at-bats.

Baseball is in the moment. The pitch, the swing, the hit, the run, the play. Each at-bat is a capsule in and of itself that offers the enjoyment of anticipation and analysis when you are actively watching.

Here's the deal, tho - you don't have to be actively watching to still follow it closely.

The glacial accumulation of statistics throughout the game, like a painter layering color onto the canvas, presents a sport that can be admired at a remove. Your diamond heroes will play a private nine-plus innings, just for you, in your mind's eye, anytime you like. This is something no other professional sport can offer.

I mean, there are a ton of stats in gridiron and basketball and hockey and soccer, but they're all devoted to gambling or fantasy team building. Gridiron football comes closest with it's down-by-down reporting, but the complexity of maneuver means you will never be satisfied with its mere description.

Malcom Butler - Interception is kind of exciting, but imagining it can never recreate the amazing moment for someone who hasn't seen it.

David Ortiz, walk-off HR in the 14th. You can See that, even if you were never there.

If you were watching, you would see the faces in the Yankees dugout droop as Pedro and Wakefield carried their bags to the Bullpen in the 7th. Of course they were going to face Pedro, and if they got by him, Wake. (Tho Timlin took over instead.)

But if you were only following along the next day, you would get an icewater chill at the box score for Pitching: Martinez, P.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:17 PM on April 8, 2016 [29 favorites]


I had a similar experience with coming to baseball as an adult. I can turn the game on while I make dinner, turn it off, and catch up the next day. I can miss games, and that's fine, there's always more baseball. When the Nats are on the West Coast, I might miss every game for a week, but I can come back, and the season has barely moved. It's nice that it's always there, for six months of the year.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:39 PM on April 8, 2016 [7 favorites]


The piece is a weird kind of trolling. There's no meaningful sense in which baseball has lost relevance. Ballparks are packed, players are more talented and higher paid than ever, and teams are profitable. What could be less important to a baseball fan than television ratings for football or basketball?

There are fewer American black players in the game for two reasons. First, because there are fewer American players in the game, period, which reflects the increasing global relevance of the sport. And second because the opportunities for African Americans to pursue other sports have improved.
posted by MattD at 5:50 PM on April 8, 2016 [9 favorites]


And third, because of a forty-year effort by MLB to convert the Dominican Republic to an offshore labor pipeline which

fourth, has dramatically increased the overall openness to and efficiency of importing players from non-USian locales which

fifth, displaces the least-advantaged US-born players (can you guess who that would be?) at a higher rate than their more-advantaged US-born peers.

Anybody here wanna talk about H1-B visas? Because it's like that.
posted by mwhybark at 6:19 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


Unbearable whiteness? Has he seen a major league team? Does he not know that clubs now need translators because the best players are often Hispanic?

Seriously, fuck this guy. I'm not in the mood for this.

BTW: Quick, name the African-American NHL player. You want a whiite sport? It's hockey. Or curling. I do think it's that African-Americans and Hispanics are smart enough to come in from the cold. But you want a white sport? There you go.
posted by eriko at 6:21 PM on April 8, 2016


Apparently you're not in the mood to RTFA either.
posted by asterix at 6:25 PM on April 8, 2016 [18 favorites]


I mean really:
The decline in black faces in the Major Leagues coincided with a surge in Latino players, who made up roughly 30 percent of rosters last year. But rather than embrace and promote its Spanish-speaking stars, baseball’s media have mostly ignored them. Even the Latino players who were ultimately celebrated and enshrined in the Hall of Fame have had to go through humiliating acculturations to make them seem more American.
posted by asterix at 6:26 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


You want a whiite sport? It's hockey. Or curling.

Ice hockey never had an appreciable number of players of any color to lose, so its whiteness does not serve as any kind of rebuttal to the article.

And really, curling? Come on, man.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:53 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


Wow, the incredible level of defensiveness in the NYT comments alone (don't read them, I know, I know) is sufficient to prove Kang's point.

Disagreement in the comments section proves the point? In that case, everything is true. And everything is false.
posted by Pararrayos at 7:10 PM on April 8, 2016


I posted this, but I'm not totally convinced by Kang. Still, is the idea that baseball is becoming less and less relevant even in doubt? None of the non-sports-fans I know could even name a single active baseball player off the top of their heads. But they know who Lebron, Steph Curry, Cam Newton, and JJ Watt are. I'm not really sure why that is. I think Kang is onto something, but there's something missing, too.
posted by AceRock at 7:13 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]


Motherfuck the "Cardinal Way," while we're at it.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:18 PM on April 8, 2016 [8 favorites]


The author of this shitpiece conveniently omits any discussion of the white 2015 MVP, Bryce Harper.
Exhibits: 1 2 3
I could go on, but what's the point.
posted by exogenous at 7:25 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


The piece is a weird kind of trolling. There's no meaningful sense in which baseball has lost relevance. Ballparks are packed, players are more talented and higher paid than ever, and teams are profitable. What could be less important to a baseball fan than television ratings for football or basketball?

TV ratings for baseball do matter, though. MLB makes a ton of money from huge, long term contracts with broadcasters. The most recent round of these doubled in value from the last ones, despite dropping ratings. And then add in the large sums that teams themselves bring in from agreements with regional cable sports networks. Once this dries up, and it will, the teams won't have the money to pay those highly talented players the money they do now.
posted by zsazsa at 8:03 PM on April 8, 2016


Baseball has always had its share of certifiable flakes who defied conformity and remained popular ... Wait, they're all white guys? Let me start over.

You are correct, I do not quibble.

But.

Doc Ellis. Satchel Paige. Dick Allen. Fernando Rodney. Manny Ramirez.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:06 PM on April 8, 2016 [6 favorites]


I wonder if this is something that conflates race and class. I haven't followed things very well for a while and my experience with American sport is in the North-East, where baseball is still super popular, but it seems like ticket prices and beer prices are getting out of hand, which explains how the sport continues to make money while becoming less popular. I don't think baseball is as much fun to watch at the bar as American football for example. Baseball at the bar is similar to checking your phone -- something to look at when the conversation has died down. And anyway it doesn't seem like people spend as much time in bars as they used to.

But all American leagues apart from the NFL are crying poverty these days (maybe the NFL too I don't follow it). Following the NHL you'd think the existence of the sport itself was in danger every time Sidney Crosby gets injured. I'm sure there is a race issue in baseball, much of which can be explained by people in this thread, but I think mostly I don't see how you can expect to raise prices and raise prices and somehow expect the sport to be more popular.
posted by Cassettevetes at 8:08 PM on April 8, 2016


None of the non-sports-fans I know could even name a single active baseball player off the top of their heads. But they know who Lebron, Steph Curry, Cam Newton, and JJ Watt are.

I call bullshit on JJ Watt, you are making shit up if you think ANY non sports fan outside of JJ Watt's bookish 2nd cousin knows who he is.
posted by any major dude at 8:24 PM on April 8, 2016


I consider myself a big sports fan and had never heard of JJ Watt. I've completely abandoned football, though. But even so, I still know some of the biggest names. JJ Watt is not among them.

Non-sports people have heard of LeBron and that is it.
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:29 PM on April 8, 2016


What's a "JJ Watt"?
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:29 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


Next Friday is Jackie Robinson Day.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:33 PM on April 8, 2016


I still know some of the biggest names. JJ Watt is not among them.

You're wrong.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 10:25 PM on April 8, 2016


JJ Watt is not among them.

Advertisers aren't dumb, There are few pro athletes in the four major US sports that can command true national endorsement attention. JJ Watt is definitely in that category.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:49 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]


BTW: Quick, name the African-American NHL player. You want a whiite sport? It's hockey. Or curling. I do think it's that African-Americans and Hispanics are smart enough to come in from the cold. But you want a white sport? There you go.

PK Subban (but Im from Montreal so it's easy), it's getting better I think cause I can name 4 others just of top of my head but that's still ridiculously white, even though it's kinda international (Canadians, Russians, Americans, Sweedes, Fins, ...). But if you don't have winter you're probably not playing outside, and you probably don't have much leagues so you don't produce players, that correlates a lot with countries with very white populations. And in Canada and the US it's not cheap to play Hockey, so white people again.

It's still a very stoic sport I'd say, PK got so much bad attention because he was celebrating with style or just having a higher profile lifestyle than most hockey players. But screw those people I want more PK not less.
posted by coust at 3:01 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


BTW: Quick, name the African-American NHL player. You want a whiite sport? It's hockey

Ryan Reaves
posted by asockpuppet at 4:57 AM on April 9, 2016


Doc Ellis. Satchel Paige. Dick Allen. Fernando Rodney. Manny Ramirez.
posted by Cool Papa Bell


Luis Tiant.

Sign me up for the baseball is dying side of the argument, by the way. I went from a childhood mega fan to not giving a damn shit about baseball as an adult. But then I'm one of those middle-aged guys who considers virtually all major professional sports utterly compromised by commerce, privilege, and violence, not only among the players but among the fans. Somewhere in the midst of that media spectacle there is a beautiful game. But I can't see it through the money, blood, and bigotry.
posted by spitbull at 5:28 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


None of the non-sports-fans I know could even name a single active baseball player off the top of their heads. But they know who Lebron, Steph Curry, Cam Newton, and JJ Watt are.

As your resident non-sports-fan, I can attest that I know all these names, but I would only recognize pictures of LeBron and JJ Watt. I'm not sure how much I would know about Watt if I didn't live in Texas, but he has enough huge fans here that he's hard to avoid. And, yeah, if asked to name a single baseball player...I'm drawing a blank.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 5:29 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I have witnessed first hand the gnashing of teeth over Ricky Henderson's "sportsmanship" as a proxy for racist thought. See also: Richard Sherman.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:09 AM on April 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wow, this thread is a perfect distillation of people either not bothering to read the linked article or reading it with that classic MeFi attitude of "Everything sucks, and as a logical consequence this thing sucks, so I'm going to scan until I find something that I can disagree with and therefore announce that it sucks... ah, got it! No need to read further, time to snark!"

For those who might be put off by such comments, it's actually a thoughtful and interesting piece.
posted by languagehat at 6:49 AM on April 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Exogenous: Sorry, it's not quite clear from the links you posted. What is the argument for why ignoring Bryce Harper is "convenient"?
posted by AceRock at 8:58 AM on April 9, 2016


None of the non-sports-fans I know could even name a single active baseball player off the top of their heads. But they know who Lebron, Steph Curry, Cam Newton, and JJ Watt are.


Just to bump up your sample size, I have no idea who these people are and don't recognize any of their names except Lebron but I couldn't tell you what sport he played.
posted by Pembquist at 9:07 AM on April 9, 2016


One alternative theory I've heard is baseball is just about now coming out of a bit of a slump, in which there were no real young stars for a fair amount of time. Apparently Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, etc are already elite/historically good and the MLB hasn't seen that kind of young talent for many years. Meanwhile, currently active in the NBA are several players who will be in the hall of fame. LeBron, Durant, Chris Paul, Curry, probably Westbrook (not to mention Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, etc). So maybe the next few years we'll see baseball players become household names again.
posted by AceRock at 9:13 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's definitely some baseball players who still command national endorsements, so they're at least prominent enough for that. Subway uses Ryan Howard and Mike Trout. That's a player who hasn't been good in forever and someone with the charisma of an automated weather forecast respectively, but people know who they are.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The glacial accumulation of statistics throughout the game, like a painter layering color onto the canvas, presents a sport that can be admired at a remove. Your diamond heroes will play a private nine-plus innings, just for you, in your mind's eye, anytime you like. This is something no other professional sport can offer.


That used to be true, but it's not anymore. I can look at an advanced box score for a basketball and get a great image of the pace of the game, how teams defended, who dominated the offensive glass...I can look at results from a golf tournament and reconstruct rounds for each player, looking at driving accuracy, GIRs and scrambling stats. I don't get to watch as much of either now, but I can still enjoy both sports in different ways with all of the information available.

Your perception of what a baseball play-by-play creates in your mind's eye is relative to your interest in the game and how much you also watch (or have watched).
posted by tallthinone at 10:22 AM on April 9, 2016


I have witnessed first hand the gnashing of teeth over Ricky Henderson's "sportsmanship" as a proxy for racist thought. See also: Richard Sherman.

You know...sometimes people are just egotistical assholes. See: Ricky Henderson. See also: Richard Sherman. Not that I'm questioning your psychic powers or anything.
posted by MikeMc at 10:26 AM on April 9, 2016


None of the non-sports-fans I know could even name a single active baseball player off the top of their heads. But they know who Lebron, Steph Curry, Cam Newton, and JJ Watt are.

Yeah, I kind of know who Lebron is because something about a contract dispute or something (?) was on the news a lot for a bit. Otherwise, no idea about those names.
posted by bongo_x at 10:37 AM on April 9, 2016


I’m always uncomfortable with the argument that certain behaviors and cultures are for white people, and you can’t expect those people to fit in. Like they can’t control themselves. You know how they are.
posted by bongo_x at 10:46 AM on April 9, 2016


Otherwise, no idea about those names.

What about Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, or Miguel Cabrera?
posted by AceRock at 11:43 AM on April 9, 2016


Doc Ellis. Satchel Paige. Dick Allen. Fernando Rodney. Manny Ramirez.

Interesting in that Paige was an undeniable character but almost entirely a Negro Leagues and barnstorming star, not reaching MLB until far past his prime and more of a storyteller than pitcher. Allen is the absolute poster child for harmful stereotyping of black players -- a spectacular talent, largely squandered due to racism and being portrayed as "hostile" and "angry" wherever he went. Easily a Hall-of-Famer in any other era. Ellis _was_ an angry, confrontational man with many incidents throughout his career -- though, can it be said he didn't have reason to be? And Ramirez has had "Manny being Manny" following him throughout his career, the implications largely depending on his batting average and team fortunes at the time. (It's amazing how "colorful and flaky and fun" turns into "team cancer" the moment you go 0-for-4.)

As for baseball's market share, there's one thing they can do right away to improve it -- start playoff games at 7 PM instead of letting them drag 'til after midnight. Give people who have something to do the next day a chance to watch the late innings.
posted by delfin at 12:00 PM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


You know...sometimes people are just egotistical assholes. See: Ricky Henderson.

What do you think you know about Rickey Henderson? Does it depend in any way on the speech he gave when he broke Lou Brock's record?
posted by asterix at 12:26 PM on April 9, 2016


How many major league baseball beat writers -- a lily-white and male profession if there ever was one

Just to provide the counter example only because I'm a big fan, and he's not a beat writer, but two thumbs up for former Cub Doug Glanville. He does the odd piece for the NYT and Atlantic, and I always enjoy his writing.

I think baseball angst on decline, youth, and race can get overblown. But then again I'm involved with bringing the next generation along so I'm biased.

There are currently class issues with youth elite baseball in the US, and so many competing options for the young attention span, but once you see it take root in young kids its immensely satisfying.

I do believe the bat flips, 'dude, and skills of the next generation of MLB stars is to be welcomed and the "right way" crowd to be moved aside as smoothly as possible. Baseball has been moving aside the old fogeys since the 1890s.
posted by C.A.S. at 12:35 PM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ok, I haven't read the article, but the famous bat flipper is white, which makes at least the quote on the FPP fall a little flat.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:42 PM on April 9, 2016


I would just generally like "the right way" crowd in every sport to just go the fuck away. Like immediately.
posted by JPD at 5:26 PM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jose Bautista is Dominican and in his article clearly differentiated his culture and traditions from white mainstream American baseball
posted by biggreenplant at 5:26 PM on April 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


The article biggreenplant mentions was the subject of a FPP that biggreenplant posted, which produced many good comments and is worth checking out.
posted by AceRock at 6:53 PM on April 9, 2016


Jose Bautista is Dominican and in his article clearly differentiated his culture and traditions from white mainstream American baseball

Does White mean American now?He's Dominican and he's white. I don't see how his being Dominican negates his whiteness. Ethnicity and race are pretty separate concepts. There are Americans of many races and Dominicans of many races. So yeah, white Dominicans are different from White Americans, but it's not about whiteness vs. something else, it's ethnicity and culture. A White Polish/Russian/Mexican/French/Belgian/Australian would also be culturally different from a white American.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:18 PM on April 9, 2016


Ethnicity and race are pretty separate concepts.

Nope. Granted, they are not the same, but they are very definitely not separate. One is a social construct, and the other is a social construct. Much like gender.
posted by mwhybark at 10:09 PM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


BTW: Quick, name the African-American NHL player. You want a whiite sport? It's hockey.

I don't even follow hockey much anymore, but I can think of a few ... don't know their names but I know the teams ... hold on. Flyers: Wayne Simmonds. Devils? Devante Smith-Pelly. Rangers: Anthony Duclair... I'm sure there are more. (Grant Fuhr always springs to mind, but I am old.) I'm sure they are also all Canadians, but that's hockey in general.

You want a really white sport, try TENNIS.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:57 PM on April 9, 2016


Nope. Granted, they are not the same, but they are very definitely not separate. One is a social construct, and the other is a social construct. Much like gender.

They're both social constructs. I don't think I said anything suggesting otherwise. I don't see how that negates them being "pretty seperate". Also social constructs but pretty separate from both ethnicity and race: gender (which you bring up...would you say this isn't pretty separate from ethnicity and race?), cultural capital, religion, political orientation, nationality. ''They're both social constructs" doesn't mean they're not pretty separate.

I stand by my statement that it's weird to equate non-American with non-White, given that many Americans are non-white and many non-Americans are white. I read Bautista's article on the bat flip and he seems to be drawing much more on national cultures than race. But I guess the problem then becomes that the article's title would then be "The Unbearable Americanness of Baseball" which might be a hard sell.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:26 AM on April 10, 2016


What do you think you know about Rickey Henderson?

Are we talking about the Rickey Henderson who used to talk about himself in the third person? The Rickey Henderson who threatened to slack off on his play if he didn't get his contract renegotiated? That Rickey Henderson?
posted by MikeMc at 6:47 AM on April 10, 2016


I"m rather confused by this article given my singular experience of a Baseball Game in Michigan last year. Firstly it was even more boring than cricket!, (i didn't think that was possible) but secondly what was up with the constant interludes and musical, sound-effects, animation screens and generally non-game related shenanigans? Children catching stuff, mascots carrying on, weird competitions between innings?

I mean how can “showboats” be a “disgraces to the game” when the game itself seems to be a shameless attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator family entertainment crap?

Or is that just small town Michigan games?
posted by mary8nne at 7:50 AM on April 10, 2016


It's a much different dynamic at minor league games. The minor league clubs are trying to make it a family-friendly outing where a sporting event happens to be taking place, while the major league clubs generally expect fans to know who the players are and care what's happening on the field. If you'd attended a Detroit Tigers game instead, I suspect the experience would have been different. Yes, there are still T-shirt cannons and silly contests and music to appeal to the casual fans at the major league level, but not as much.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:15 AM on April 10, 2016




And I'm pretty sure MLB teams are well aware of the decreasing number of Black players. The Twins were starting Aaron Hicks for years (probably as their token player in my opinion) until their new manager Paul Molitor demoted him last year.

I miss Denard Span and Ben Revere and Delmon Young.
posted by jillithd at 9:10 AM on April 10, 2016


(Torii Hunter is welcomed back with open arms!)
posted by jillithd at 9:11 AM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's very strange to talk about Bautista as a simply white player, as if the only thing that separates him from Adam Dunn is nationality, rather than ethnicity. The experience of (white) Hispanic players is different from that of white (not Hispanic) players. When we talk about white people, in baseball or anywhere else, we typically mean white people without Hispanic origins. It's a little sloppy, to be fair, but it does capture a real divide.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:47 AM on April 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I think it does too, I just don't think the divide is whiteness. It's ethnicity (I don't even think it's his being hispanic...panethnic categories can be useful for some things, but the culture around sports is probably different enough between different hispanic ethnicities that it's surely more accurate to say his approach comes from being Dominican (which I would call both a nationality and ethnicity...Bautista is Dominican by both nationality and ethnicity, though there are people who are only one or the other) than from being hispanic). So I don't think he's "simply a white player" I just think it's not non-whiteness that is the issue here. Think of British soccer culture. Many of those British people are white but they behave very differently than US sports fans would. To suddenly claim they're not white because they're British would be odd and to claim their different culture meant they weren't white is also odd.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:59 AM on April 10, 2016


There is a significant difference between being white of Hispanic derivation and being white of Western European derivation in this country. There are a whole lot of reasons for that, the study of which (the precise nature and alignment of white-oriented social power) is kind of a career in itself and probably beyond the scope of this discussion. The short version is: it is more sensible to group Hispanic white people with other non-white people due to the differential in social privilege they often experience, particularly once their Hispanic heritage is public knowledge. These distinctions are ways to talk about divergence in social power, and anti-Latino, anti-Hispanic discrimination and power is a very real force which is modulated by racial appearance but not often negated by it. This is why the census has begun distinguishing between white people of Hispanic extraction and otherwise. This power differential is especially pronounced in baseball, where Hispanic/Latino white people compose a significant percentage of the player base while having a significantly diminished power base (as determinable by media presence, sponsorships, endorsements, contracts, etc.) Social power is conferred, not intrinsic, and in America, Jose Bautista is not generally considered to be white in a meaningful racial sense, regardless of his skin tone.
posted by Errant at 6:05 PM on April 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know...sometimes people are just egotistical assholes. See: Ricky Henderson. See also: Richard Sherman. Not that I'm questioning your psychic powers or anything.

Uh, I was referring to discussions about those two players by people I knew which were ostensibly about their "sportsmanship" but revealed clear racial bias in the context of the conversation. No psychic powers needed.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:39 PM on April 11, 2016


> Next Friday is Jackie Robinson Day.

Jackie Robinson. A Film by Ken Burns.
posted by homunculus at 9:47 PM on April 12, 2016


jillithd: "I miss Denard Span and ..."

He's playing for the Giants now. Here's him writing about it.
posted by exogenous at 4:56 AM on April 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Denard Span is just a class act. One year in Spring Training when he was still with the Twins and they were playing against the Yankees, he hit his mom with the ball! He was so excited to play that day and, as his family lives in Tampa and the Spring Training field is near Tampa, he knew his mom was there watching the game. And oops, there went the foul ball! I think it was Jeter who assured him that he should go check on her to make sure she was OK. Span was so nervous and then didn't know which came first - the game and his team or his mom!

*sigh*

I know he's still playing. But he's not a Twin anymore. :(

Thanks for the link.
posted by jillithd at 9:21 AM on April 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


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