You know it's--it's great for, uh, women's equality.
April 10, 2016 9:47 PM Subscribe
This is odd. Methinks the author of the article has misunderstood something. Women have been in the U.S. Army infantry for quite some time, and have even earned Ranger tabs. Getting deployed as front-line infantry is another matter.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:06 PM on April 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:06 PM on April 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
First we shock and awe the enemy, then we hearts and minds them. All she's saying is, just because I'm a woman I gotta be heartsing and mindsing all the time? Let me get in on the shocking and awing!
Infantry! The front lines! Kill a Martyr for Christ and Country!
BONUS ROUND!!!
"I was going to go military police, but infantry is similar, and they are more on the front lines, like law enforcement here and I said that's what I want to do."
Law Enforcement! The front lines! Kill an American for Law and Order!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 10:09 PM on April 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Infantry! The front lines! Kill a Martyr for Christ and Country!
BONUS ROUND!!!
"I was going to go military police, but infantry is similar, and they are more on the front lines, like law enforcement here and I said that's what I want to do."
Law Enforcement! The front lines! Kill an American for Law and Order!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 10:09 PM on April 10, 2016 [13 favorites]
Cool Papa Bell: You don't have to be in the Infantry to go to Ranger School. She's an MP, if I recall correctly. And while there have been women going out on missions with Infantry and even Special Forces on encounter teams, she would be the first woman to enlist from the jump to be in the Infantry.
And despite what anyone thinks about the Army, the military, war, or anything else, this is a good thing for women. Military service, and the Infantry in particular, has long been held up both inside and out of the military as proof that women are "weaker" and not as capable as men. Whether or not it's a good thing for every individual is impossible to know (and I'm sure there will be horror stories to come, culture is much slower to change than policy), the fact is that this is one more door that is open for women to walk through if they so choose, and I fail to see how that could possibly be a bad thing.
posted by Punkey at 10:17 PM on April 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
And despite what anyone thinks about the Army, the military, war, or anything else, this is a good thing for women. Military service, and the Infantry in particular, has long been held up both inside and out of the military as proof that women are "weaker" and not as capable as men. Whether or not it's a good thing for every individual is impossible to know (and I'm sure there will be horror stories to come, culture is much slower to change than policy), the fact is that this is one more door that is open for women to walk through if they so choose, and I fail to see how that could possibly be a bad thing.
posted by Punkey at 10:17 PM on April 10, 2016 [21 favorites]
CPB - the Army Times says it too - she's the first enlisted. She's enlisting specifically as military occupation specialty 11X, which is infantry and was previously closed to women.
posted by gingerest at 10:20 PM on April 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 10:20 PM on April 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
I just don't get this. The United States is not under attack. There is no reason for the U.S. military to be seeing action on the front lines anywhere in the world. This sounds to me like an abstract desire to go out and shoot people justified by a reference to gender equity.
Just think of this way, now your disdain for working class people who join the military is equal opportunity.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:35 PM on April 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
Just think of this way, now your disdain for working class people who join the military is equal opportunity.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:35 PM on April 10, 2016 [35 favorites]
I remember reading somewhere that women were already serving on the front lines and in just as much danger as the men but not getting the bonus pay that men get because they officially weren't able to be assigned to it. So general issues about what our military is doing aside, this is unquestionably a good thing for equality.
posted by bleep at 11:01 PM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 11:01 PM on April 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just think of this way, now your disdain for working class people who join the military is equal opportunity.
I'm usually the first to go for the class critique, but I think we're capable of enough nuance to draw a distinction between a (misguided if earnest) belief that military service is the best/only opportunity one has to escape poverty, get an education, etc, vs. champing at the bit to get "on the front lines". Sure, material conditions and Ideological apparatus interpellate consciousness and everything, but at the point where someone is polishing up their gun to get out there and shoot some trrists abroad or some criminals at home, well, let's just say it's possible for someone to be a class enemy and come from the same class background simultaneously.
It's also possible to support gender integration in the military while condemning this specific woman's attitude.
It's also possible to support gender integration in the military while condemning the entire mission, organization, and purpose of the military, and advocating its ultimate dissolution.
posted by Krawczak at 11:10 PM on April 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
I'm usually the first to go for the class critique, but I think we're capable of enough nuance to draw a distinction between a (misguided if earnest) belief that military service is the best/only opportunity one has to escape poverty, get an education, etc, vs. champing at the bit to get "on the front lines". Sure, material conditions and Ideological apparatus interpellate consciousness and everything, but at the point where someone is polishing up their gun to get out there and shoot some trrists abroad or some criminals at home, well, let's just say it's possible for someone to be a class enemy and come from the same class background simultaneously.
It's also possible to support gender integration in the military while condemning this specific woman's attitude.
It's also possible to support gender integration in the military while condemning the entire mission, organization, and purpose of the military, and advocating its ultimate dissolution.
posted by Krawczak at 11:10 PM on April 10, 2016 [26 favorites]
I like that they told me what she was wearing when she took the oath, because you can't describe a woman doing anything without telling us he she was dressed.
That's all we care about anyway right?
How about for once we report on what a woman did by talking about what she did, and not by mentioning her attire?
posted by caution live frogs at 11:13 PM on April 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
That's all we care about anyway right?
How about for once we report on what a woman did by talking about what she did, and not by mentioning her attire?
posted by caution live frogs at 11:13 PM on April 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
Ha, I didn't even notice that, because they waited until the sixth graf instead of putting it in the lede, which, tragically, constitutes progress.
posted by gingerest at 11:27 PM on April 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 11:27 PM on April 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
ArkLaTex? Really?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:47 PM on April 10, 2016
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:47 PM on April 10, 2016
Krawczak, I agree with everything you just said. But either the minority/working class/poor people who make up the enlisted ranks of the U.S. military are just more ignorant and/or bloodthirsty than white, middle/upper class people or their opportunities are materially different. I've had a big problem with the way public discourse on military action has been reduced to "don't you support the troops?" since the first Gulf War. But as long as we are going to have a military, the positions that lead to promotion/respect/career advancement shouldn't be limited by gender, race, etc.
It's also possible to support gender integration in the military while condemning this specific woman's attitude.
I have no problem condemning her attitude. I'm pretty sure I disagree with a lot of her attitudes. But I haven't seen articles about every single male enlistee and their attitudes or their right to be there.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:49 PM on April 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's also possible to support gender integration in the military while condemning this specific woman's attitude.
I have no problem condemning her attitude. I'm pretty sure I disagree with a lot of her attitudes. But I haven't seen articles about every single male enlistee and their attitudes or their right to be there.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:49 PM on April 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's also possible to support gender integration in the military while condemning the entire mission, organization, and purpose of the military, and advocating its ultimate dissolution.
This was my first thought. It's frustrating that the military is making these PR victories. First they repealed DADT, now they permit women to serve in all arms of the organization. It is an encouraging sign of changing values in society on the whole, while simultaneously a troubling development in the augmentation of their opportunities to indoctrinate. All it does is provide them ammunition (pun unintended) for moral superiority rhetoric: "Look pa!!! I'm on the right side of history!" Moves like these do nothing to address the rampant institutional racism or sexism; rampant sexual assault problems.
If all the material about the American military I have consumed over the years tells me anything, it's that it is a system built to channel the frustrations of the poor, and people of colour towards, predominantly, other people of colour overseas. It is a factory for creating downtrodden devotees of Uncle Sam at his most authoritarian, so that they may return to their communities and extol his virtues. They are meant to be agents of reinforcing the status quo.
In particular, I remember a program I had listened to on NPR about Latinx recruiters. So many of them were encouraged to return to their neighbourhoods after their regular service. I can't help but think the white folk directing such movements had an explicit plan of "naturalizing" local kids via the process of enlistment and service. They pressure young Latinx's to join as a way of demonstrating loyalty to the U.S. American culture is saturated with not-so-subtle suggestions that those of recent foreign parentage or ancestry, especially Latinx's, are of questionable national loyalty. All these kids get in return for volunteering is being the cannon fodder that Adlai Joachim Fish CXVI, the commissioned officer, is too whi- I mean, uh, important, to be.
And boy, don't get me started on the idea of nationalism.
posted by constantinescharity at 12:25 AM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
This was my first thought. It's frustrating that the military is making these PR victories. First they repealed DADT, now they permit women to serve in all arms of the organization. It is an encouraging sign of changing values in society on the whole, while simultaneously a troubling development in the augmentation of their opportunities to indoctrinate. All it does is provide them ammunition (pun unintended) for moral superiority rhetoric: "Look pa!!! I'm on the right side of history!" Moves like these do nothing to address the rampant institutional racism or sexism; rampant sexual assault problems.
If all the material about the American military I have consumed over the years tells me anything, it's that it is a system built to channel the frustrations of the poor, and people of colour towards, predominantly, other people of colour overseas. It is a factory for creating downtrodden devotees of Uncle Sam at his most authoritarian, so that they may return to their communities and extol his virtues. They are meant to be agents of reinforcing the status quo.
In particular, I remember a program I had listened to on NPR about Latinx recruiters. So many of them were encouraged to return to their neighbourhoods after their regular service. I can't help but think the white folk directing such movements had an explicit plan of "naturalizing" local kids via the process of enlistment and service. They pressure young Latinx's to join as a way of demonstrating loyalty to the U.S. American culture is saturated with not-so-subtle suggestions that those of recent foreign parentage or ancestry, especially Latinx's, are of questionable national loyalty. All these kids get in return for volunteering is being the cannon fodder that Adlai Joachim Fish CXVI, the commissioned officer, is too whi- I mean, uh, important, to be.
And boy, don't get me started on the idea of nationalism.
posted by constantinescharity at 12:25 AM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The military system is extremely skilled at getting people ready and willing to go into combat. By many accounts, peacetime infantry service is fucking miserable. I am not surprised in the least that she was vocal about being excited for action. In fact, if she had gone on record as being hesitant or trepidatious to carry out whatever orders may come there quite possibly would have been negative, if not serious or official, consequences.
posted by clorox at 12:32 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by clorox at 12:32 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Good for her! Not quite the first woman in the US Army, according to Wikipedia.
First woman OFFICIALLY ALLOWED to join though, hurrah!
posted by alasdair at 3:35 AM on April 11, 2016
First woman OFFICIALLY ALLOWED to join though, hurrah!
posted by alasdair at 3:35 AM on April 11, 2016
If all the material about the American military I have consumed over the years tells me anything, it's that it is a system built to channel the frustrations of the poor, and people of colour towards, predominantly, other people of colour overseas. It is a factory for creating downtrodden devotees of Uncle Sam at his most authoritarian, so that they may return to their communities and extol his virtues. They are meant to be agents of reinforcing the status quo.
And if all the years of my lifetime growing up, living and working on and around bases tells me anything, this is kind of bullshit.
posted by Hal Mumkin at 4:16 AM on April 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
And if all the years of my lifetime growing up, living and working on and around bases tells me anything, this is kind of bullshit.
posted by Hal Mumkin at 4:16 AM on April 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Just think of this way, now your disdain for working class people who join the military is equal opportunity.
The upper-middle class is over-represented in the military and the working class is underrepresented.
posted by anotherpanacea at 4:40 AM on April 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The upper-middle class is over-represented in the military and the working class is underrepresented.
posted by anotherpanacea at 4:40 AM on April 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
ArkLaTex? Really?
Wait, what? ArkLaTex is a thing.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:15 AM on April 11, 2016
Wait, what? ArkLaTex is a thing.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:15 AM on April 11, 2016
I find it odd that the radical pacifists have chosen a woman enlisting as infantry as their rallying point. We have had a lot of threads on the military, and you choose a story about a woman gaining equality in an American cultural and govermnental institution as the one you put your heart and soul into derailing? Going so far as to condemn her personally? For what? Daring to want what's offered to men? Violating her womanly role as a caregiver?
I mean, honestly. We've gone from zero to "disband the military because a woman enlisted as infantry" in one post. Your intentions may be heartfelt, but the optics are baaaaaad.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:22 AM on April 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I mean, honestly. We've gone from zero to "disband the military because a woman enlisted as infantry" in one post. Your intentions may be heartfelt, but the optics are baaaaaad.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:22 AM on April 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
To clarify, I'm from the Ark-La-Tex area. Was just wondering why this was being called out.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:43 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:43 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just don't get this. The United States is not under attack. There is no reason for the U.S. military to be seeing action on the front lines anywhere in the world. This sounds to me like an abstract desire to go out and shoot people justified by a reference to gender equity.
If nothing else, look at it this way: In much of the country, for many elected officials and the people they serve, the military is a jobs program. In general, it's not okay for government jobs programs to be exclusive of large groups of Americans.
So, it's change for the better, even if you have a problem with our military in a broader sense.
posted by atbash at 6:43 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
If nothing else, look at it this way: In much of the country, for many elected officials and the people they serve, the military is a jobs program. In general, it's not okay for government jobs programs to be exclusive of large groups of Americans.
So, it's change for the better, even if you have a problem with our military in a broader sense.
posted by atbash at 6:43 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I remember reading somewhere that women were already serving on the front lines and in just as much danger as the men but not getting the bonus pay that men get because they officially weren't able to be assigned to it.
Not really. The various flavors of Special Pay that can be thought of as "combat pay" are either for being in a particular place or performing a certain duty, regardless of a servicemember's MOS (their full-time job that they spend most of their career doing). There are bonuses for being in certain MOSes (many of which were men-only), which are based primarily on availability (when the military wants more infantrypeople, it increases the enlistment/reenlistment bonuses in those MOSes to encourage people to start/continue in that job). But those are long-term bonuses that a man wouldn't get either if he wasn't in that MOS and was just performing certain duties temporarily -- if a man in an MP unit is performing typically infantry-type duties, he's not getting any extra money for it that the woman next to him isn't getting.
posted by Etrigan at 6:43 AM on April 11, 2016
Not really. The various flavors of Special Pay that can be thought of as "combat pay" are either for being in a particular place or performing a certain duty, regardless of a servicemember's MOS (their full-time job that they spend most of their career doing). There are bonuses for being in certain MOSes (many of which were men-only), which are based primarily on availability (when the military wants more infantrypeople, it increases the enlistment/reenlistment bonuses in those MOSes to encourage people to start/continue in that job). But those are long-term bonuses that a man wouldn't get either if he wasn't in that MOS and was just performing certain duties temporarily -- if a man in an MP unit is performing typically infantry-type duties, he's not getting any extra money for it that the woman next to him isn't getting.
posted by Etrigan at 6:43 AM on April 11, 2016
In particular, I remember a program I had listened to on NPR about Latinx recruiters. So many of them were encouraged to return to their neighbourhoods after their regular service.
Pretty much every recruiter of any race is encouraged to return to their neighborhood to recruit, because they know people there and will be more effective.
posted by Etrigan at 6:47 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Pretty much every recruiter of any race is encouraged to return to their neighborhood to recruit, because they know people there and will be more effective.
posted by Etrigan at 6:47 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
America has enemies and probably always will. What we do about them is the political class's fault - don't blame it on the infantry.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:16 AM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:16 AM on April 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Join the mobile infantry and save the world. 'Service Guarantees Citizenship' Would you like to know more?
posted by valkane at 9:27 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by valkane at 9:27 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It is a factory for creating downtrodden devotees of Uncle Sam at his most authoritarian, so that they may return to their communities and extol his virtues. They are meant to be agents of reinforcing the status quo.
The idea that the military gives a rip about what people do after they leave the military is quite amusing to those of us who have been on both sides of that curtain.
posted by Etrigan at 9:51 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The idea that the military gives a rip about what people do after they leave the military is quite amusing to those of us who have been on both sides of that curtain.
posted by Etrigan at 9:51 AM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
To clarify, I'm from the Ark-La-Tex area. Was just wondering why this was being called out.
Because to hell with you Oklahomaphobes, that's why! Arklatexoma or GTFO!
No, I didn't realize it was an actual thing and thought it was an awkward attempt at claiming Barnett as a representative of a bunch of states or something.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:07 AM on April 11, 2016
Because to hell with you Oklahomaphobes, that's why! Arklatexoma or GTFO!
No, I didn't realize it was an actual thing and thought it was an awkward attempt at claiming Barnett as a representative of a bunch of states or something.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:07 AM on April 11, 2016
We have had a lot of threads on the military, and you choose a story about a woman gaining equality in an American cultural and govermnental institution as the one you put your heart and soul into derailing?
This is an excellent point and I apologize for my part in it. For what it's worth, I was motivated to comment specifically in response to ActingTheGoat's use of the class critique to block criticisms of militarism, but I should have been more sensitive to the larger topic of the thread before speaking up.
posted by Krawczak at 10:35 AM on April 11, 2016
This is an excellent point and I apologize for my part in it. For what it's worth, I was motivated to comment specifically in response to ActingTheGoat's use of the class critique to block criticisms of militarism, but I should have been more sensitive to the larger topic of the thread before speaking up.
posted by Krawczak at 10:35 AM on April 11, 2016
Surely though it should be ArkLaTeX? And be a version where instead of typesetting a paragraph at a time it paragraphs characters two by two?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:59 AM on April 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:59 AM on April 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry to tell you this, Dave, but you have an arklatexoma. We'll need to schedule surgery as soon as possible.
posted by gingerest at 2:06 PM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by gingerest at 2:06 PM on April 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
If all the material about the American military I have consumed over the years tells me anything...
It should be telling you to broaden the range of materials you're consuming. As some who served in the armed forces I'm struggling to articulate precisely how full of shit that comment is.
posted by MikeMc at 10:08 AM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
It should be telling you to broaden the range of materials you're consuming. As some who served in the armed forces I'm struggling to articulate precisely how full of shit that comment is.
posted by MikeMc at 10:08 AM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
« Older The Road Home | D'oh! Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I just don't get this. The United States is not under attack. There is no reason for the U.S. military to be seeing action on the front lines anywhere in the world. This sounds to me like an abstract desire to go out and shoot people justified by a reference to gender equity.
posted by layceepee at 9:57 PM on April 10, 2016 [9 favorites]