Dreaming of Mars, again
April 12, 2016 6:51 PM Subscribe
Yea, it's fair to criticize Obama for a lot of things, but not for lack of basic science funding when this Congress is at war with the concept of a government that does anything at all other than build bombs to drop in the desert. It's hard to ask Republicans to fund investment when their only response to any suggestion that any government program in any field whatsoever can have a positive result is some variation of: "MOAR TAX CUTS LESS EVERYTHING OR ELSE".
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:52 PM on April 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:52 PM on April 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Psycho-Congress has been awful for America, but some of them make an exception for spending on space. Granted, a lot of that is to keep contractors satisfied in Alabama, Florida, and Texas, but at least one of them actually knows what Europa is and why it matters.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 8:21 PM on April 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by chimpsonfilm at 8:21 PM on April 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's fair to criticize Obama. When he was Candidate Obama he proposed delaying Constellation to fund education, as President he killed it. Although I pay my rent with money earned from the space program, I understand his motivation. The US space program doesn't enjoy the support that education programs or programs for children do. How many school lunch programs can you buy for the cost of a Cygnus or Dragon launch?
posted by Rob Rockets at 8:25 PM on April 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Rob Rockets at 8:25 PM on April 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ok, but Constellation was replaced with the SLS program, which was basically a reshuffling of the deck chairs with the same budget. They're both essentially paper jobs programs keeping the manned spaceflight industry on life support with 20-30 year timelines that will never be met without massive increases in funding, which appears impossible in the current political environment. Manned US spaceflight has been stagnant since the completion of the ISS and lack of a clear plan, need or public appetite for the next steps, while flagship pure science missions have been scrapped under both the Bush and Obama administrations.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:37 PM on April 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:37 PM on April 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, it's hard to argue that space exploration policy is this President's happy place -- or any current candidate for that matter. I don't think it's been mentioned at all in the debates, I'm guessing for the first time since Sputnik.
The SLS is looking more like Buran.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:56 PM on April 12, 2016
The SLS is looking more like Buran.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:56 PM on April 12, 2016
Well, DAMN that Obama! HE'S sure as hell not going to get re-elected!
posted by yhbc at 9:13 PM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by yhbc at 9:13 PM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This solar system sucks.
I've been reading The Island at the Center of the World about the Dutch experience in what is now NY and the author did such a good job on it one can easily see the drama of the story mapped to space colonies a la Heinlein or whatever.
Problem here in the non-SF realm is that there is no New Earth to be settled.
The money and effort a serious manned program would take should be deployed towards more economic endeavors at home.
Not school lunches, but capital accretion, like punching a tunnel through the Sierras like how it's done in the Alps.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:22 PM on April 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've been reading The Island at the Center of the World about the Dutch experience in what is now NY and the author did such a good job on it one can easily see the drama of the story mapped to space colonies a la Heinlein or whatever.
Problem here in the non-SF realm is that there is no New Earth to be settled.
The money and effort a serious manned program would take should be deployed towards more economic endeavors at home.
Not school lunches, but capital accretion, like punching a tunnel through the Sierras like how it's done in the Alps.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:22 PM on April 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's great that Jeff Bezos, by dint of running a mega-corporation that doesn't pay taxes, has enough cash left over to play with rockets himself. Think what Nasa could have done if Amazon did pay tax, huh?
posted by bonaldi at 2:47 AM on April 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by bonaldi at 2:47 AM on April 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Within twenty years we went from Gagarin to the Shuttle via Apollo - twenty years¬ - but that phase ended thirty-five years ago.
And say we do Mars - what then? Even if we have found life in an icebound oceanic moon, the cost/risk equation of sending people there versus what they could actuall do when they arrived is impossible to justify.
It's the age of robots now, until we find a commercial model that supports people in space. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, even if you're a full on out-of-the-cradle our-destiny-is-out-there type (as I am). these things go in cycles, and surfing the right wave at the right time is half the game...
posted by Devonian at 3:00 AM on April 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
And say we do Mars - what then? Even if we have found life in an icebound oceanic moon, the cost/risk equation of sending people there versus what they could actuall do when they arrived is impossible to justify.
It's the age of robots now, until we find a commercial model that supports people in space. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, even if you're a full on out-of-the-cradle our-destiny-is-out-there type (as I am). these things go in cycles, and surfing the right wave at the right time is half the game...
posted by Devonian at 3:00 AM on April 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I really think we may have seen more or less the entire history of manned spaceflight played out. That's all, folks!
posted by Segundus at 6:32 AM on April 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Segundus at 6:32 AM on April 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not Jeff Bezos' or Amazon's tax evasion that's preventing space exploration, bonaldi. It's Wall Street's rent seeking and industrial scale tax haven support.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:08 AM on April 13, 2016
posted by jeffburdges at 7:08 AM on April 13, 2016
It's also lack of imagination and inability to think more than 10 minutes into the future from most of the population keeping us from getting anywhere.
Hell, I want to see a footprint on Mars more than just about anyone and I can't even come up with too many good reasons for it beyond "it will be really, really cool", though to me that's a perfectly good reason.
posted by bondcliff at 7:16 AM on April 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hell, I want to see a footprint on Mars more than just about anyone and I can't even come up with too many good reasons for it beyond "it will be really, really cool", though to me that's a perfectly good reason.
posted by bondcliff at 7:16 AM on April 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Individuals think into the future if you do not distract them. We went to the moon largely to scare the communists. We need to disembowel the rent seekers, military industrial complex, etc. if we want to make it to Mars.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:26 AM on April 13, 2016
posted by jeffburdges at 7:26 AM on April 13, 2016
Or we could just take the Stross plan of putting all those resources into developing robots, and then going extinct. If we push this program hard enough, we can get this done by the end of the century.
posted by happyroach at 8:36 AM on April 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 8:36 AM on April 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hell, I want to see a footprint on Mars more than just about anyone and I can't even come up with too many good reasons for it beyond "it will be really, really cool", though to me that's a perfectly good reason.
What experience has shown is that private industry is very good at reconfiguring and polishing existing technologies, integrating and finding new use(r)s for them. Private industry is not as good at the basic research that leads to those technologies, and this is where the government can and should step in. There are a lot of different ways that the government can fund research and development of new technologies, and one of those is an Apollo-style program. We pick a difficult goal and throw money at researchers, say "Go".
The benefit of this versus more general funding of basic sciences is largely aspirational, but there's plenty of room for both techniques. The important thing is to fund basic science.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:08 PM on April 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
What experience has shown is that private industry is very good at reconfiguring and polishing existing technologies, integrating and finding new use(r)s for them. Private industry is not as good at the basic research that leads to those technologies, and this is where the government can and should step in. There are a lot of different ways that the government can fund research and development of new technologies, and one of those is an Apollo-style program. We pick a difficult goal and throw money at researchers, say "Go".
The benefit of this versus more general funding of basic sciences is largely aspirational, but there's plenty of room for both techniques. The important thing is to fund basic science.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:08 PM on April 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
My favorite science fiction aspect of The Martian was that it took place in a world where scientific research and space exploration were well funded, and there were apparently no wars, famines or climate change to distract people from pouring billions of dollars into Mars missions. Good times. Wish we lived in that universe.
posted by permiechickie at 7:38 PM on April 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by permiechickie at 7:38 PM on April 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
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posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:16 PM on April 12, 2016 [20 favorites]