IF I DIE I DIE
May 5, 2016 9:11 AM   Subscribe

But I have two favorites. These two men are as different as a pair of massive weightlifters can be. Their contradictions as men, as avatars of their nations, and as exemplars of their sports run deep. They are polar opposite social-media physical specimens, but compliment each other perfectly, as most opposites do.
Youtube Bodybuilders Rich Piana And Dmitry Klokov Can Teach You How To Live
posted by griphus (32 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
Piana, on the other hand, lives and dies—one video actually carries an “IF I DIE I DIE” postscript—by aesthetics and the use of steroids towards those ends. He’s said that he’d prefer to be 180 pounds and shredded than 290 pounds with a distended gut; he’s also claimed that steroids make a user look better-endowed because they shrink his balls, making his dick look bigger by comparison.
Technically, I suppose that is one way to live.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:20 AM on May 5, 2016


I work in the fitness industry and follow a variety of trainers/bodybuilders on Instagram, and they run the gamut from truly inspiring and looking amazing, to bloated, self-obsessed meatheads that are like watching a trainwreck. The problem is, even the ones who really look great and healthy-- it seems like their entire lives center on being in the gym and working out. That's fine if you actually like working out- lots of people do. The problem is that those people are the face of what 'fitness' looks like. Lots of people end up in great shape while also feeling hopelessly inadequate. It's a spiral- there is no amount of fit, ripped, muscular, lean-- that is ever enough. I always catch myself hating on some minutiae about myself, and have to take a step back from the mirror and remember that I've got endurance, functional strength, and good health, and that's what really counts.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:27 AM on May 5, 2016 [13 favorites]


Lots of people end up in great shape while also feeling hopelessly inadequate. It's a spiral- there is no amount of fit, ripped, muscular, lean-- that is ever enough. I always catch myself hating on some minutiae about myself, and have to take a step back from the mirror and remember that I've got endurance, functional strength, and good health, and that's what really counts.

It really doesn't help that a lot of gyms seem to be covered in wall mirrors.
posted by indubitable at 9:36 AM on May 5, 2016


steroids make a user look better-endowed because they shrink his balls, making his dick look bigger by comparison

I believe they say, "small potatoes make the meat look bigger."
posted by uncleozzy at 9:44 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


indubitable: gyms are covered in mirrors in large part because it helps you check your form. From a purely safety POV this is a good thing. I get what you're saying however.
posted by sp160n at 9:51 AM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


I mean, you need the mirrors though, to check your form. If they could somehow fun-house them so you appear exactly as you wish to appear, that would be great.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:52 AM on May 5, 2016


Interesting sidebar: there are a lot of 'natural' bodybuilders who are rumored to use 'just a bit' of steroids- not enough to look like jacked monsters, but to get to the peak of what you can accomplish naturally, with a bit less effort. What's at stake-- sponsorships, training clients, modelling. It's cheating, same as in sports- and really unfair when you have followers who think that with enough hard work they could look like you.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:54 AM on May 5, 2016


This was a great article!
posted by OmieWise at 10:01 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ilya Ilyin, the world record holder in my weight class (we're technically competitors, see--), does the following while training for the Olympics, according to an interview he gave to Klokov, who is repositioning himself as a media figure (Dancing with the Stars in Russia) now that he is past his weightlifting prime, which I was past before I ever started weightlifting:

1. Sleep
2. Eat
3. Read

Klokov, for his part, also

4. travels around the world doing paid coaching appearances/clinics at CrossFit and weightlifting gyms, at which he routinely comments on the "form" ha ha of the female lifters' squats, which if you couldn't tell from this article is part of being Klokov, you comment on female butts a lot

i forget where i was going with this

weightlifting 4 lyfe
posted by radicalawyer at 10:04 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


indubitable: gyms are covered in mirrors in large part because it helps you check your form.

The thing is, I have found it terrible for form; if you're squatting for example, it gives you misleading visual feedback about the position of your body and discourages you from developing an innate feel for what your body is doing under load. Between that and the constant distraction of people milling around behind you, I find myself looking for a foam mat or two to stuff in front of me.

Perhaps it's not just encouraged vanity, but also gyms being designed and staffed by people who don't use them.
posted by indubitable at 10:11 AM on May 5, 2016


From there, his father recounts how Klokov would swim in their apartment building’s swimming pool, first thing in the morning, every single day, no matter if it was below freezing or not. His willingness to swim these waters was less about doing whatever it takes than a very Russian ethos of doing something painful on purpose to harden the soul.
This is interesting to think about. It's a part of old school martial arts – running in the cold, standing in freezing waterfalls, kicking banana trees. Knuckle pushups, even. In our current era of actually testing martial arts, they've been cast off as kind of macho nonsense that is not the most efficient way to improve your fighting. And it's true – your time is largely better spent drilling head movement or sprawling or what have you.

That said, I can't help thinking this kind of thing is worth doing at least at some point in your life if you're going to be a serious competitor. I used to do what were – at least for me – intense workouts, and when I did those regularly, regardless of the lack of direct applicability of doing a lot of burpees and mountain climbers and pull-ups, I did feel like everything else I did physically was at least approachable.

If you swam in freezing water every morning as a kid, doing a bunch of supersets twice a day or whatever elite lifters do probably don't seem impossible.
posted by ignignokt at 10:15 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


I was on a plane with Rich Piana once. That was amusing.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:16 AM on May 5, 2016


The thing is, I have found it terrible for form; if you're squatting for example, it gives you misleading visual feedback about the position of your body and discourages you from developing an innate feel for what your body is doing under load.

I think there is a happy medium between "mirrors are terrible, always" and "I cannot pick up a weight without looking in the mirror." I have found it very useful for diagnosing issues in the bottom of my squat, in my deadlift setup, figuring out how to properly position my body for various exercises. Obviously it is not something you can use in the midst of Olympic lifts, but for people who are not lifelong athletes their proprioception will not always be developed enough to naturally lead them towards the best form. They're useful for setting you down the right path to developing good form, especially in the absence of constant coaching. I have found the no-mirror purists (looking at you, Mark Rippetoe) tend to be the coaches who are least likely to work with casual gym-goers or people who got into athletics later in life and thus have various mobility and patterning issues that interfere with their ability to maintain good form.
posted by Anonymous at 10:18 AM on May 5, 2016


Ahh, the steriod arms race. To me it's the equivalent of playing ripped characters with superpowers in video games. You may be winning, but it's not real, so what's the point? That's just me though. Clearly Piana and his fans love it, just as many people love video games. I think the sports world would benefit from acknowledging the ubiquity of performance enhancing drugs and making separate competition classes for users. Enhanced weightlifting vs. natural. Trying to wish it away isn't working because, to quote Piana, "five percent of people will do whatever it takes."
posted by mantecol at 10:21 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ahh, the steriod arms race.

Everyone forgets leg day.
posted by griphus at 10:23 AM on May 5, 2016 [15 favorites]


Nobody ever seems to draw the comparison between performance enhancing drugs for bodybuilding, and body modification enthusiasts. What's the difference between freakishly huge arms and freakishly huge ear gauges, besides what you're trying to say about yourself?
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:24 AM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


The massive damage to your endocrine (etc.) system from performance enhancing drugs, for one.
posted by griphus at 10:26 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ahh, the steriod arms race. To me it's the equivalent of playing ripped characters with superpowers in video games. You may be winning, but it's not real, so what's the point?

I would argue with this. PEDs don't magically make you better and bigger without effort (synthol is not a PED, it is more like Botox or lip injections). The vast majority of high-level competitors are not using PEDs to do less work, they are using PEDs in order to do more work. PEDs help with strength, but their main benefit is improving work capacity and reducing recovery time. For example, EPO is decidedly a PED, and yet will do nothing for you unless you're actually working out.
posted by Anonymous at 10:26 AM on May 5, 2016


OK, there's that.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:27 AM on May 5, 2016


and yet will do nothing for you unless you're actually working out.

Actually, it will kill you as your inert blood turns into molasses. You NEED to exercise regularly when using EPO.
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:33 AM on May 5, 2016 [1 favorite]


I would argue with this. PEDs don't magically make you better and bigger without effort (synthol is not a PED, it is more like Botox or lip injections). The vast majority of high-level competitors are not using PEDs to do less work, they are using PEDs in order to do more work.

I think we're on the same page. My point was that just because it seems not real to me doesn't mean everyone sees it that way. So why not embrace it and allow it in athletic competitions between likeminded competitors? Having everyone lumped together in an environment where they're not able to acknowledge many of the performance-enhancing things they may be doing sets the sports world up for constant scandal and probably some bad blood between athletes.
posted by mantecol at 10:47 AM on May 5, 2016


This would require the legalisation of steroids in many places, first.
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:21 AM on May 5, 2016


Nobody ever seems to draw the comparison between performance enhancing drugs for bodybuilding, and body modification enthusiasts. What's the difference between freakishly huge arms and freakishly huge ear gauges, besides what you're trying to say about yourself?

Bodybuilders don't really do it (or else I'm just not as tuned in to that world), but body-modification enthusiasts and transhumanists (lots of overlap there) make that comparison a lot.
posted by box at 11:22 AM on May 5, 2016


I think that while both body modification and bodybuilding have plenty of philosophical (?) similarities, the amount of personal effort and determination to become Extremely Swole is exponentially greater than the amount of effort and determination it takes to get all but the most extreme body modifications. The person who worked hard on my tattoos was the artist; I just sat there and winced and tried to not crush my wife's hand too much. The person who worked hard on whatever gains it is I've gotten from weightlifting was me.
posted by griphus at 11:40 AM on May 5, 2016


(Totally a weird aside, but some of the conversations that bodybuilders have about steroids are similar to ones that body-modification enthusiasts have about painkillers.)
posted by box at 11:53 AM on May 5, 2016


So why not embrace it and allow it in athletic competitions between likeminded competitors? Having everyone lumped together in an environment where they're not able to acknowledge many of the performance-enhancing things they may be doing sets the sports world up for constant scandal and probably some bad blood between athletes.

It's a pretty complicated issue. There's a number of things to consider:
  • Sports already favors the rich. Legalizing chemical enhancements sharpens that divide even further. versus But how much further, really? Rich kid who grows up in CT playing lacrosse is probably always going to beat out the Nicaraguan immigrant kid struggling in Miami for that D1 scholarship to JHU.
  • Where do we draw the line? What about gene therapy? It is not as far off as one might think. versus You know there are other countries that are already doing this to their athletes. It's an inevitability.
  • Are we concerned about further increasing the pressure on athletes to take PEDs in order to do the sport they love? What about younger athletes? versus They already face those pressures, and will always face those pressures one way or another.
  • Finally, tested versus "natural" competitions already exist in bodybuilding, and you still see use of PEDs in the natural competitions. Having separate options doesn't necessarily fix the issue. Not to mention once you have a PED-happy zone nobody gives a shit about the PED-free competitors because they're just not able to achieve the same levels that PED users can. versus But the "natural" BBs still use less, and maybe it's good enough to have an option where outright abuse isn't sanctioned.
I don't know what the answer is, myself. Part of me is very "everyone does it, live and let live". I know a lot of people on PEDs. They just want to be stronger, better athletes and started using after years of being clean because they saw it as an opportunity to push themselves harder and saw everyone else doing them.

The other part of me knows high-level lifters who have felt the direct effects of the pressure to do PEDs in sports (well, lifting-related sports). Plenty of dudes who basically hit a point where it was either take PEDs or burn out. And watching the explosion of female lifters has given me new perspective on the direct effects they have on the sport. I'm a woman who got into lifting in 2008, before weightlifting/strongman/powerlifting/Crossfit/physique competitions had really started getting popular among women. Very few competitors, period. In strongman, you could win a national title with some solid athletic background and a year of lifting under your belt. In Olympic weightlifting, women had only been allowed into the Olympics in 2000. Powerlifting was a bit more popular, but in general PED use in the general population of female lifters was pretty much limited to women who did hardcore bodybuilding (with fat-burners like clen being slightly more prevalent than steroids).

These days there are a lot more competitors now. The field in all lifting-related sports has only gotten broader, deeper, and more talented. And with that has come more prevalent PED use. I personally know women who got started around the same time I did, did really well, and then watched women they used to beat surpass them because they were taking steroids. To use steroids or not is an exceptionally fraught choice for women because you have to balance effectiveness with virilization. Granted, women have such low baseline test levels that you don't need a lot to see a huge improvement, but in many ways PED use becomes an arms race. That 5-10 mg/day of Anavar was fine to start, but you see that woman in your weight class is on Winstrol and you're concerned maybe you're not doing enough. It's a tightrope and it's real easy to fall off.
posted by Anonymous at 12:35 PM on May 5, 2016


but you see that woman in your weight class is on Winstrol and you're concerned maybe you're not doing enough. It's a tightrope and it's real easy to fall off.

You may not be doing 'enough' but Winstrol and most bottom-tier bodybuilding PEDs are really harsh on the body. (Specifically the joints. And if oral steroids are used, say a prayer or 50 for your liver.)

I'm very indifferent to PED use, but it has costs to the user. Many of which probably won't be known for some time—maybe never, given that PED regimens generally involve cocktails and not one single substance.
posted by Dark Messiah at 1:37 PM on May 5, 2016


No argument with you there. At the most extreme levels, you can look at the number of strongmen and wrestlers and bodybuilders who drop dead in their 30s or 40s. One thing I do not like about the community is the unwillingness to discuss the long-term effects of usage. In an effort to dispel the after-school special roid rage nonsense too many people act like it's totally 100% no problem no matter what you take or how long. But like you say, there aren't any studies on this. You can find small studies of male HIV patients on low levels of Anavar, but that has no comparison to the stacks used in real life.
posted by Anonymous at 1:52 PM on May 5, 2016


indubitable: Well, when to use the mirror is your judgement call of course. Of course you should develop a feel but you either need a full time trainer / gym buddy to watch every lift (not very likely) or you can use the mirror safely for a good number of lifts.

My overhead press is often times asymmetric, one shoulder drops a little lower even though they feel the same due to some bad movement patterns I've internalized. The mirror helps there and in other places.

That said, checking your hip angle in the mirror mid-squat is probably an invitation to injury.

In conclusion, gym mirrors are a land of contrasts.
posted by sp160n at 2:08 PM on May 5, 2016


I used to watch all the 'tubes of all these guys, but these days can only be bothered with the remarkably wise and entertaining Alan Thrall, who has the best instructional videos around, and sometimes a little bit of Steve Shaw and Greg Nuckols.

Omar Isuf is inescapable and in a lot of way is like the tren cycle of YouTube lifting personalities - everyone tries him out eventually in the hopes that they will get bigger. He doesn't appeal to me, personally.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:16 PM on May 5, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's a spiral- there is no amount of fit, ripped, muscular, lean-- that is ever enough.

While I regret not starting sooner - way sooner - in a lot of ways I guess I'm pretty lucky that I didn't come to lifting until I was 32 years old, because I am no longer interested in comparing myself to anybody else and thus never genuinely feel "dissatisfied" with my progress, and I also have more realistic expectations than I would have when I was younger. I know I'm not going to ever look or lift like Klokov or whoever, but I can look - or, at least, feel - better than I did yesterday, and lift better than I did yesterday, and I think that's good enough.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:23 PM on May 5, 2016 [5 favorites]


But like you say, there aren't any studies on this.

Indeed. And two things really strike me about this, as I do enjoy researching the stuff as it dovetails with my love of combat sports.

First, pretty much the only studies you'll find are done on aenemic or malnourished people, or cancer patients, etc. (i.e. people where this isn't used as a PED, but as a means to normalise people in various states).

The second is that, as frightening as it sounds, some serious PED users on forums seem to be way more knowledgeable about the human body than doctors in these very specific, narrow areas. There are of course a lot of bullshit tales and bro-science, but on the other end there are rigorous, thorough users who document EVERYTHING about their process and share this knowledge and a lot of what they say checks out.

Something else not considered enough, is that a lot of PED usage is for recovery purposes. I don't mean between leg day and chest day, but for injuries. Only recently has there been open talk about exploring some of these drugs as options for athletes, with Mark Cuban putting down some cash to study HGH as a recovery option.

It's a fascinating subject, whether one lifts or not.
posted by Dark Messiah at 4:08 PM on May 5, 2016 [2 favorites]


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