“I’m drawn to writing about times and places on the cusp of transition,”
May 10, 2016 2:26 PM   Subscribe

An Interview with Guy Gavriel Kay [io9] Guy Gavriel Kay has carved out a unique niche, writing fantasy novels that take real-life historical settings and transforming them into something new and different. His latest novel, Children of Earth and Sky, takes place in a version of 16th century Europe that’s under threat from a version of the Ottoman Empire, and includes a fictionalized version of real-life Croatian bandits called the Uskoks, who stole from the Venetians and the Ottomans for justice. We talked to Kay about just how he manages to turn real-life history into a world all his own. You can read an excerpt of Children of Earth and Sky, introducing the character of Danica, here.

Where to Start with Reading Guy Gavriel Kay? [The Wertzone]
All of Kay's novels - ten to date - take place in the same universe, but are divided into two broad sub-worlds. However, they are published out of chronological order and are almost entirely made up of stand-alone books. The sole exceptions are his two series, The Fionavar Tapestry trilogy and The Sarantine Mosaic duology. Everything else is stand-alone.
posted by Fizz (35 comments total) 33 users marked this as a favorite
 
newkaynewkaynewkayNEWKAYNEWKAY
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:38 PM on May 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


I've noticed with a lot of my friends that there is this deep schism when it comes to reading and enjoying GGK's work. There are those who have been there from the beginning who have a deep love for the Fionavar Tapestry in all of its fantasy-mashup glory. And then there are those who prefer his stand-alone historical fantasy novels.

Either way there is a deep love for his writings. It's just that one particular trilogy that divides many fans. I will say that the Fionavar Tapestry is a trilogy that is being written by a young writer. You can tell that GGK is testing things out. His writing has vastly improved over the years. I'd urge people to start with The Lions of Al-Rasan. It is one of the most beautiful fantasy stories I've ever read. And also one of the few that has moved me to tears. GGK is a treasure.
posted by Fizz at 2:40 PM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


You could start with the Silmarillion.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:50 PM on May 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm standing in Philosopher's walk reading this which made me as giggly as it did reading Kay for the first time.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:58 PM on May 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Either way there is a deep love for his writings

Erg. I cannot read Kay anymore. His narrative tics drive me up the wall. He's got a thing where he FORESHADOWS. And then he FORESHADOWS SOME MORE. And then MORE. And he hides information from the reader -- really obviously -- and pulls the curtain away at the end, ta-dah! See how cool I am, I have deceived you! The end of Lions of al-Rassan enraged me, it was such cheap melodrama.

I really liked several of his early novels, but gah, nothing after A Song for Arbonne is readable, and even that, I suspect, I cannot reread. I tried to reread Tigana a few years ago and was shocked at how terribly overwritten and melodramatic it was.

Kay learned a lot from reading Tolkein, and from reading Dorothy Dunnett (he's a huge fan), but I fear he didn't learn the right things. Like, if you're going to fool the reader, don't tell them you're doing so. Also, repetition is sometimes just repetitive: you have to do something more to give a phrase emotional weight.

Also, comma splices.

To be fair, plenty of people love his work: for me, it's like driving down poorly-maintained concrete, full of potholes.
posted by suelac at 3:04 PM on May 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


And he hides information from the reader -- really obviously -- and pulls the curtain away at the end, ta-dah! See how cool I am, I have deceived you!

My read of that sort of thing is that he's really trying to put you in the focal character's position. When he drops the reveal--as with the Thing in Arbonne--you have to re-evaluate the motivations of other characters and what they've said, same as the character in the book would.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:14 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's just that one particular trilogy that divides many fans. I will say that the Fionavar Tapestry is a trilogy that is being written by a young writer. You can tell that GGK is testing things out. His writing has vastly improved over the years

Fionavar was done right after he helped with the assembly of the Silmarillion, IIRC, and so it has some strange tics and beats that I think come from having been immersed in Tolkien-notes for too long alongside being a young writer.

I have found over the years that I have to be particular in my approach to Kay, though I generally enjoy his books. As suelac says, some of his stylistic tendencies can be aggravating, and so I have found my best approach to his work is to read them once, to never revisit them, and to never read too many too close together. My attempts to re-read usually leave me wondering why I enjoyed the book in the first place.
posted by nubs at 3:20 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Huh, wow. I reread Lions and Arbonne at least once a year, and I cry every time.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:27 PM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


Look, if you folks can't all agree on having exactly the same response to an author's works, I'm afraid we'll just have to shut the whole conversation down.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:30 PM on May 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


I'll agree that Sun doesn't reward rereading though. Very weak.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:34 PM on May 10, 2016


People's mileage varies, and it is a good thing and why we need a lot of different voices writing fantasy/sf.
posted by nubs at 3:35 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Huh. Last Light of the Sun is my favorite novel that isn't by Douglas Adams.

I can't say I've read nearly all of Kay. If the back cover pitch and subject matter don't get me, no amount of word-of-mouth will. But his prose and style have been hugely inspirational, regardless of how many or few of his books I've read.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:43 PM on May 10, 2016


I've been rationing out GGK's books the last few years, like some kind of maniacal hoarder who is quickly running low on supplies. I allow myself only one of his books per year because I enjoy him so much. Sadly, I'm approaching that point where I'll have been all caught up and not have any of his older works to go back and read for the very first time.
posted by Fizz at 3:47 PM on May 10, 2016


I had really enjoyed Under Heaven (2010) and The River of Stars (2013), especially because the latter takes place a few hundred years after the former, and it's interesting to see what elements of Under Heaven make it into history as the characters in The River of Stars understand it.

My complaints about him as a writer are basically complaints about a certain strain of the fantasy genre -- there's a lot of dry-mouthed fascination with women who are either professional beauties and/or enjoy The Sex, while women who are smart or driven by something other than male approval are treated an an anomaly, and this mindset is handwaved with "It's rooted in historical culture!"

But the stories tend to be satisfyingly epic and I admire the effort to give good story as well as a specific mood. I'll be staying up too late tonight to begin Children of Earth and Sky.
posted by sobell at 4:09 PM on May 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


!!!

My reaction here pretty much echoes fffm's.

I probably need to save this for the weekend, because I can't remember the last time I started a Kay book and didn't finish it in pretty much the same sitting.

(I started with Tigana, and only picked up Fionavar later. I unabashedly love both it and (most of) the approximate-historical-moment-with-serial-numbers-filed-off novels, though I think Fionavar's essential Fantasy Product nature leaves it less approachable for people who aren't much into that whole trip. I gave it to my girlfriend before I knew how allergic she is to generic elves & dwarves material generally, and I have been feeling like a jerk ever since because she refuses to stop reading it but instead is gradually powering through in little bursts of irritation with pauses to say "fucking seriously" about this or that character identity revelation. Should have started her with Lions.)
posted by brennen at 4:39 PM on May 10, 2016


My read of that sort of thing is that he's really trying to put you in the focal character's position. When he drops the reveal--as with the Thing in Arbonne--you have to re-evaluate the motivations of other characters and what they've said, same as the character in the book would

Hm. Here's the thing: the focal character in Lions knew exactly what happened because they were there. (I don't remember the thing in Arbonne, it's been too long since I read it.) Similarly, there's a bit in the first Sarantine book where there's this big setup to a character opening a door to see ... SOMEONE. And it's hugely important, and he never tells you who it is. Let me rephrase, in the next book, there's an off-handed comment that reveals what had happened there, but it's not made explicit.

I consider that to be cheating. That's playing peekaboo with the reader. If you want to hide information from me, hide it fairly. Dunnett, whom Kay reveres, does this: she writes in such a way that you have the information to parse the situation correctly, but she misdirects you perfectly (by, for instance, telling the story from the pov of the least-informed character). At the end, when the truth is revealed, you can go back and reread and see all the clues in place.

But Kay doesn't misdirect your attention skillfully. He hides the ball openly. I think it's cheap, and it shows a fundamental mistrust of the reader's intelligence. Same with the over-portentous language and all the FORESHADOWING.

And he does this all the frelling time. Over and over again. Which is why I had to stop reading him, because life is too short to do such damage to my blood pressure.
posted by suelac at 5:06 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I love that GCK finds these super interesting, often-overlooked historical characters to write about. I hate that he's the author writing the story.
posted by subdee at 5:11 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I agree that he has those annoying tics you describe in many of his books, suelac, but he reined them in for Under Heaven and River of Stars, which were as good as anything he's written.
After Ysabel (Whose plot I cannot for the life of me remember) I was ready to walk away from his books, but after those last two (bought after reading good reviews) I'm willing to put down money for his next one.
posted by cardboard at 9:08 PM on May 10, 2016


After Ysabel (Whose plot I cannot for the life of me remember)

"Hey, remember the two people who came back from Fionavar? They're now middle-aged supporting characters in a young adult novel which features, as per the usj in a GGK joint, a love triangle featuring a woman whose chief value is that she's beautiful and remote as the stars, plus two dudes who would -- in another life -- be friends if they weren't well-matched adversaries acting as a metaphor for a clash of cultures."
posted by sobell at 9:32 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I adore Tigana, love it, love it, love it -- at one point had three copies (long story). But I didn't really like Arbonne or Lions of Al-Rassan or the Sarantine Mosaic. When the story is too close to the actual history, I start getting into a narrative uncanny valley. At that point, I just want a pure history book or a pure fiction book - not something in between.
posted by jb at 10:03 PM on May 10, 2016


Oh, I adore (most of) Kay! Fionavar doesn't do anything for me (I dislike that brand of fantasy) and the ones that are slightly too obsessed with fathers and sons exclusively (Ysabel, Last Light) are ones I'll never revisit, but the Sarantine books and Lions are ones I reread frequently. Tigana was the first book I read, as a kid, when I burst into tears at the end because it was over (and because I knew I could never write anything like that).

I obviously don't hate his style, but I do sometimes describe it as magisterial, which is not a 100% endorsement. For me, it's very similar to my experience of Hilary Mantel's work: the novels are dense and move slowly and take me a long time to finish, but I'm always so, so glad I read them by the time I get to the end.
posted by TwoStride at 5:41 AM on May 11, 2016


I don't see how Lions of Al-Rassan and/or The Sarantine Mosaic haven't yet been given the HBO Game of Thrones series treatment. I think they fill that same sort of niche of fantasy that's more character/plot/culture/politics driven, where the "magical" stuff is there more for atmosphere. There have been rumors of a Lions film before but far as I can see nothing's ever come of it.
posted by dnash at 7:42 AM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Lions would need probably three years to tell it well, I think, and would have a really difficult needle to thread w/r/t appropriation and racism in a way that I'm not particularly confident anyone could handle well. Plus it's my hands-down favourite and I'd be super super super worried about the delicacy of many of the interactions (the first time Ammar and Rodrigo meet, literally anything with Jehane, etc) surviving the transition. Mosaic would work as two seasons of ten episodes and would have far fewer difficulties... but would end up being Yet Another Fantasy Story About White People.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:04 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I read Under Heaven and River of Stars about three years apart and wish that I had read them closer together (obviously, I didn't know when I was reading the first one that a sequel would come out; otherwise I likely would have waited).

While both of the two novels can totally stand alone, I really enjoy seeing subtle allusions to the previous world and didn't remember enough from Under Heaven to catch those in River of Stars (and I don't have enough patience to reread the entire first novel just to catch those allusions.) Oh well.
posted by andrewesque at 8:08 AM on May 11, 2016


I mean, casting alone would be a nightmare for Lions, given Hollywood's whiteness. See: Jake Gyllenhaal in Prince of Persia (which was SO VERY AMAZINGLY TERRIBLY BAD OH MY GOD).
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:09 AM on May 11, 2016


I really enjoy seeing subtle allusions to the previous world

In Sun there's a throwaway reference to Crispin's chapel from Mosaic.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:10 AM on May 11, 2016


I started reading Kay relatively early in his career, and I do fall into the group of people who bonded with the Fionovar trilogy. (It might be for that reason that Ysabel is one of my comfort reads.) But the ones I go back to, and this is partly because I adore the city of Ravenna and have seen the Justinian and Theodora mosaics a few times and would gladly move there so I could look at them for the rest of my life, is the Sarantine duology. It actually took me a few reads before I completely fell in love, but that's where I am now. Perhaps strangely, I haven't reread Tigana even though I loved it. It just hasn't drawn me back. The only one I never really clicked with was Last Light of the Sun, but I also had issues with the two Chinese works because I felt like they were tonally heading somewhere I wasn't sure I could follow, but I also read them first on Kindle and have noticed that sometimes that had a distancing effect. I need to reread them to see how I feel.

I am so so excited about this new book, though. So very.
posted by PussKillian at 8:12 AM on May 11, 2016


I fell in love with Fionavar as a kid (I was maybe.. ten? Eleven?) because a) I'd just read LOTR and was plowing through Silmarillion (although didn't know the authorial connection, just grokked a thematic one); b) it was set in Toronto omg omg omg omg; c) I was vaguely obsessed with the Arthurian legend at the time.

Tigana leaves me, on reread, thinking he needed a very stern editor with a big red pen. Large chunks of that book could be cut out without any loss at all--it meanders, and shows what happened when he unmoored from Tolkienesque writing but hadn't quite worked it out yet. Arbonne is a masterpiece, and I'd argue it's the best of his books, but Lions is my favourite by a hair.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:17 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Arbonne is fantastic, but I rarely see it mentioned in discussions on Kay. Don't know why.
posted by PussKillian at 8:21 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Arbonne is definitely one of his better novels. I feel like it's not mentioned as much because it is too often overshadowed by Lions of Al-Rasan and the Sarantine Mosaic. Those works feel bigger with regards to the history that he's trying to tell in this universe.

I've yet to pick up and read Under Heaven and River of Stars. I just picked up his new novel but I'm considering a reread of the Sarantine Mosaic before I delve into Children of Earth and Sky. I have a sense that they will be more intertwined than some of the other works that he alludes to.
posted by Fizz at 8:33 AM on May 11, 2016


River of Stars is heartbreaking. Even more so than usual.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:46 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Side note: Just shared a link for this thread with Guy Gavriel Kay on twitter and he says he appreciates the discussion that is happening about his works.

:)
posted by Fizz at 10:35 AM on May 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Gee, thanks.
posted by suelac at 1:35 PM on May 11, 2016


It's ok, suelac - I've been known to be the one person in a book thread talking about how I wanted to love it but instead found it to be a fluffy little piece of nothing...about five minutes before the author showed up.
posted by PussKillian at 1:56 PM on May 11, 2016


Ok, I actually just finally finished River of Stars and oh, my heart. Waaaaaaah.
posted by TwoStride at 7:06 PM on May 14, 2016


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