Do Start-ups Have a Drinking Problem?
May 20, 2016 8:06 AM   Subscribe

 
uh oh
posted by beerperson at 8:09 AM on May 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm pretty sure that if you guessed "yes" to answer the question "do start-ups have an [x] problem", you'd be right about 95% of the time.
posted by tocts at 8:13 AM on May 20, 2016 [44 favorites]


I'm pretty sure that if you guessed "yes" to answer the question "do start-ups have an [x] problem", you'd be right about 95% of the time.

In the case of the champagne anecdote, I suspect that if Sarah Jane Coffey had been Steven John Coffey, there would not have been nearly as much pressure from the male founder.
posted by Etrigan at 8:15 AM on May 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


In my experience, I haven't seen much in the way of an HR department to report a 'violation' to in the first place.
posted by goHermGO at 8:16 AM on May 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


For once, Betteridge's Law of Headlines fails.
posted by asterix at 8:16 AM on May 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


The more I read about "start-up culture" the more it sounds like religious-revival hucksterism. I clicked on through to another piece she wrote about burnout and this really jumped out at me:

It was during that role that I first learned of the burgeoning Boulder startup scene. I cultivated an obsession over startuppers’ Twitter feeds, devoured episodes of Techstars’ “The Founders” and I was soon making regular trips to attend Ignites, meetups, and the first Boulder Startup Week.

Follow the Twitter feeds of some allegedly successful men [virtually certainly virtually all men] and attend some corporate stuff with dumb names, and you too will be washed in the blood of the Lamb or whatever, despite the fact that so many of these enterprises later turn out to be utter failures and/or shell games.
posted by Frowner at 8:16 AM on May 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


But all my "authentic, honest relationships" were formed around having a few drinks. The idea that you could have a more authentic relationship without a glass champagne is just nonsense.
posted by mary8nne at 8:17 AM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think this article illustrates one of the problems with the hyperbolic AA doctrine of the "genetic alcoholic". Which results in the almost religious belief that all that stands between your "good" and sober self and the abyss is one sip of champagne.
posted by mary8nne at 8:20 AM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think it goes without saying that anyone who makes you feel uncomfortable about this kind of personal choice is an asshole. And I don't know specifically about a "drinking problem", but startups do have a well-documented "asshole problem".
posted by Slothrup at 8:22 AM on May 20, 2016 [92 favorites]


I try to follow the rule of not drinking with co-workers. Former co-workers on the other hand are usually great to drink and commiserate with.
posted by FJT at 8:25 AM on May 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'd argue it's not just start-ups either; I don't work in one and when I went booze-free for the entire summer last year, I kept getting quizzed about it at my job. It was either assumed I was pregnant or an alcoholic. I was either. I just wanted to be sober for the summer.
posted by Kitteh at 8:26 AM on May 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think this article illustrates one of the problems with the hyperbolic AA doctrine of the "genetic alcoholic". Which results in the almost religious belief that all that stands between your "good" and sober self and the abyss is one sip of champagne.

Clearly, you know better how to manage the author's alcoholism better than she does.

She was being pressured to do something pointless that she did not want to do and which she believed would be actively harmful to her. That is not how adults foster authentic, honest relationships.
posted by Etrigan at 8:29 AM on May 20, 2016 [75 favorites]


These startup people should try being a journalist or a police if they want to see some real drinking go down.
posted by Coda Tronca at 8:29 AM on May 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


FJT: I try to follow the rule of not drinking with co-workers. Former co-workers on the other hand are usually great to drink and commiserate with.

Yeah, how does any serious professional get drunk around their direct coworkers? Doesn't that strike everyone as an obviously terrible idea?
posted by Mitrovarr at 8:32 AM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't think it's necessarily just a start up thing, but a company culture thing. I've worked at Fortune 500 companies that had a strong drinking culture, and good lord, ad and creative agencies swim with the big drunk sharks. That said, being sober is a trickier line to walk than it should be. It shouldn't be a thing, when I say I don't drink. I broke up with one friend because I ordered coffee, and she had the bartender make it a boozy coffee because she thought I needed to "relax". Drinking as a thing needs to be less of a social marker, and more just people acknowledging that booze is their drug of choice. Maybe then we can get some more supporters of my drug of choice, because I'd much rather have stoners on the streets than drunks. (Ok, a stoner start up might be a lot of fun...)
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 8:34 AM on May 20, 2016 [21 favorites]


Start-ups have a start-up problem.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 8:35 AM on May 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thanks for the reminder that as many problems as I have with traditional older school corporate culture, I really appreciate the capital-B Boundaries my life has between work and play.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:36 AM on May 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Speaking personally, I have a track record of never being able to control my drinking for anything but brief periods, going back to the first time I got drunk at age 13. So giving up the delusion that I can suddenly start doing that now is something I have had to go through. Most people who stop drinking don't do that as their first effort to control the damage; they usually do it after multiple failed attempts to drink moderately or like non-alcoholics.

Yeah, how does any serious professional get drunk around their direct coworkers? Doesn't that strike everyone as an obviously terrible idea?

I used to only drink a little for show at any work function, leave, and go drink like I really wanted to . This is what's called being a functional alcoholic[sic].
posted by thelonius at 8:37 AM on May 20, 2016 [29 favorites]


Yeah, how does any serious professional get drunk around their direct coworkers? Doesn't that strike everyone as an obviously terrible idea?

10 years working in publishing tells me that no, this does NOT strike everyone as an obviously terrible idea.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:38 AM on May 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


a stoner start up might be a lot of fun...

Did you ever look at the foosball table player guy's hands? I mean, really look at them?
posted by thelonius at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah, how does any serious professional get drunk around their direct coworkers? Doesn't that strike everyone as an obviously terrible idea?

When all of your coworkers are pretty much just like you in the gender/sexuality/race/religion areas, it's a lot easier to (accidentally) avoid doing something that really deeply offends someone. For most of history, "serious professionals" have been a monoculture, so it never really came up that getting drunk was a bad idea beyond the occasional fistfight over whether Notre Dame really deserved to be ranked in the top ten.
posted by Etrigan at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


(FWIW, if I could do things all over, I probably would choose not to go drinking with coworkers. But honestly, I've been drunk with a LOT of colleagues and like...I still get jobs, and some of those folks are my good friends now, so overall it wasn't the most terrible idea, really.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:40 AM on May 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Asking if she's pregnant is really inappropriate! It's none of his fucking business unless/until she decides to make that information public!

Also, like, I actually AM pregnant. Does that mean I'm not capable of bonding with a work team because right now I am not drinking alcohol? I hope not because I just started a new job and everyone's been really nice and I'd hate to think it turns out that, because of a combination of biology and family choices I've made, it turns out they don't believe I'm a real member of the team!
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:46 AM on May 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'm pretty sure that if you guessed "yes" to answer the question "do start-ups have an [x] problem", you'd be right about 95% of the time.

My startup has a bird problem. We can't figure out how they keep getting in the building, why, or how to get them out.

no, really. please help.
posted by schmod at 8:46 AM on May 20, 2016 [40 favorites]


I work at a startup. I usually have a bottle of liquor on my desk, and some evenings I'll have a shot, neat, before I head home, our if it's 5 and it's clear I won't be leaving for a couple of hours. This started as a perk from the product team lead, and I just kept replacing it. There is a tradition some adhere to of saying "I owe you a beer" if you fix a problem another dev was struggling with, or catch an error that qa missed.

And yeah, just last night, I probably had more than I should have, and as someone who has been a non drinker in the past, I know that things would be awkward if I tried to do that again with this company culture.

Culture I don't get to opt out of bugs me in general, people imposing their idea of what food I should eat, what music I should listen to, when I should sleep, and yeah, whether I should drink or even what I should be drinking. I hate culture.
posted by idiopath at 8:48 AM on May 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mod note: Comment removed, please do not try to steer this into an argument about how you disapprove of people avoiding drinking or whatever.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:49 AM on May 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


hey, pressuring people to do a thing they don't do is bad consent and is fucked up and "playing along with the team" does not mean "potentially do something to myself that has a high likelihood of fucking me up WAY more than it will fuck you up".

I can't be on facebook. It's like, actually a drug for me. I don't know why, I just can't fucking deal with it. People make fun of me for that like "what's the big deal it's just facebook" I DON'T KNOW all I know is that facebook is bad fucking news for me, that is more than anyone ever needs to know, you know?

Like is it really a fucking huge wakeup call to people to ask them to leave people who don't drink alone?

Yes, yes it is. Our attachment to drinking in business IS A HUGE problem that needs to be dealt with.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:51 AM on May 20, 2016 [34 favorites]


I also, although I'm not currently partaking in it (and might not ever again! Who knows what life will hold!), don't mind people having drinks with colleagues. I've done that! I've gone to after-work happy hours and gotten very drunk with people I work with (select people, not everyone) and gone to cookouts at work during the working day with pretty alcoholic margaritas where we all went back to work afterwards and none of that bothers me! If other people want to drink then, as long as it doesn't make them assholes and they are capable of doing their jobs and it's not a problem for them, I DOOOOOOOOOOOOOON'T CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARE!

What I DO care about is this kind of pressure. I don't mind a culture where people drink sometimes, including with colleagues, but I DO mind a culture where people are encouraged/expected, implicitly or otherwise, to do things they don't want to do. It's dangerous and unhealthy and also often reinforces pre-existing negative dynamics because it's even harder to say "I don't want to do that" if you feel vulnerable because you're, for example, a woman or person of color or queer person or a person with disability issues or some combination of these or anything else that makes you feel like an outsider.

I live in DC, we have a bonkers happy hour culture, lots of people aren't from the area originally so they make friends through work and then go out drinking, I don't give a fuck, but DO NOT PRESSURE PEOPLE TO DO THINGS THEY DON'T WANT TO DO. Respect their fucking choices. That's the problem here even more than the alcohol.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 8:58 AM on May 20, 2016 [11 favorites]


I guess part of what I mean is that I think start-ups have a "You need to fall in line with my expectations and if that's harder for you for any reason fuck you, be more like me" problem more than just a drinking problem.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:01 AM on May 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


> My startup has a bird problem. We can't figure out how they keep getting in the building, why, or how to get them out.

I don't work at a startup but we also have a bird problem! The problem is: dumb birds; people leaving windows/doors open; no screens. Who you gonna call? Me, apparently.

I will be drinking with co-workers next week, but it'll be a small group and it's someone's farewell party, and it'll also be walking distance from my house, rather than 30 miles away at the office. I am in favor of this in this instance.
posted by rtha at 9:11 AM on May 20, 2016 [12 favorites]


This is something that gets discussed in academic circles, too, given the role of drinking at academic conferences and department social events. (The MLA has cash bars as far as the eye can see.) My own department's previous generation had wine at department meetings, which, I gather, did not improve the quality of discussion any. That generation also had alcoholics, although not having grown up around drinkers, I didn't recognize the signs until one of them got drunk at another department's Christmas party, started to drive off, and killed another professor.

I'm teetotal, because I cannot abide the taste of alcohol, and relatively fortunate that nobody has ever quizzed me about why I don't drink; other people, however, have told me that that hasn't been their experience. It does mean that some forms of conference socializing get old/unpleasant relatively fast, though.
posted by thomas j wise at 9:11 AM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't think her company had an alcohol problem, I think it had an asshole problem.

I live in a drinking town.
We're regularly on the list of "towns with the most breweries per capita", the surrounding area is "America's next big wine region" and the state is "Leading the way in craft distilleries!"

Consequently, there is a lot of booze flowing at social events at this town.
Schools hold $1 Pint fundraisers, the Wine Wall is a big money item at the auction.
Company retreats take place at wineries, the local tech incubator is above a distillery.
You get the idea.

But, because it is integrated into the culture, from adults to kids, there isn't overwhelming pressure to join in.
I hesitate to say it's a "European approach" because that cliche is over-used, but I do think there is something to it.
I have never been to any social event where "I don't drink" has ever been met with anything other than "Ok, do you want a soda or something?"

Note: I am middle-aged, so my social circle tends to skew that way.
Culture at startups full of recently escaped college kids is likely different, though I have friends in our local tech industry, and they do not report wild bands of drunken brogrammers roaming downtown.

posted by madajb at 9:17 AM on May 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is also a problem in companies that are not actual start-ups but emulate startup culture for the purposes of recruiting young dumb cheap easily-distracted hires who can be squeezed for 60-80 hour weeks and don't have wives and kids to care about.

It's also how a certain type of CEO maintains his (it's always a he) Cool Flava at the big boys' table. Or big boys' cycling/rock-climbing/wearin' cool shades at the Nickelback VIP area table.

The drinking is calculated to be a form of distraction. It also solidifies the white boys club at the company. At my last company, in my final months, I did take my manager aside and say "we cannot have every single company event be these drinking-and-BBQ parties, it has reached the point of openly insulting to [the Muslim managers and tech leads who will never and can never say anything because of their visas], it's uncomfortable for [me and the two other women in a company of 30 people], it's hard on the families of the married employees to have dad not home for dinner on weeknights once every week or two, folks are going way beyond one-drink-and-out to the point it's a competition, can we please go bowling?"

But yeah, anyway, I have worked at two places where "drinking company with a software problem" has been a popular joke, beer fridge and all*, and I'll never do it again. I have worked at other places that maybe had a group or groups of people who frequently went out drinking after work, and I have been both in and out of that group, but it's still very very different when it's a group of relatively lateral employees socializing unofficially rather than sanctioned management-involved booze-ups.

*Though I've never worked anywhere that anybody EVER cracked a beer before about 4:30, except that one time when we spent two hours just before lunch thinking we'd had a major, pants-shitting, completely unrecoverable techsplosion and then found out we didn't. But that's different.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:20 AM on May 20, 2016 [20 favorites]


Startups can attract folks who are smart and capable but who are not good managers of self or others. Of course pressure like that can be found anywhere but startups are more fertile ground for that.

Whether it is booze or strippers or vegan cheese, don't let a boss tell you what, how much, or when to consume anything.

And if bossy folks can't trust you for it, then they are broken and you are in for a bad time.
posted by drowsy at 9:21 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Speaking of champagne and start-ups and assholes:

In 1999 I worked at a web consultancy in San Francisco which was in full start-up mode (lavish parties, trips to the Black Rock desert to do mushrooms, etc.) and a new CIO was brought on-board. To celebrate one thing or another, he took us to the Bubble Lounge, a champagne bar, where he proclaimed that he was "not leaving until [he] spen[t] $1,000.00." At some point during the evening, apropos of nothing, he turned to me (a young developer) and said "It's guys like me that shit on guys like you."

He was let go less than a month later.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:22 AM on May 20, 2016 [16 favorites]


These startup people should try being a journalist or a police if they want to see some real drinking go down.

My wife works at an accounting firm, and good lord, those people can drink. She doesn't abstain, but after a third of a glass she's done. No one has ever tried to pressure her or make her feel bad about that.
posted by Slothrup at 9:22 AM on May 20, 2016


Drinking pressure can be worse at startups than larger organizations because a) the cult of personality that tends to congeal around the founders and b) they're often too small to have a competent HR department that can handle complaints and tell jerks to knock it the hell off.

At one company I worked we had a tradition of celebratory vodka shots after releases. This was curtailed because somebody who didn't feel comfortable speaking up among their peers was able to go to HR and make noise about it. That mechanism is completely invaluable.

Also, you shouldn't have a shot after you push a release because the last thing you need when everything starts catching fire is the sudden realization your entire engineering team is drunk.
posted by phooky at 9:24 AM on May 20, 2016 [19 favorites]


Everyone knows drinking with your coworkers is a bad idea. Here's the solution: Pick up smoking. The execs' assistants hang out around the back door taking drags and dishing about everything.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:30 AM on May 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I worked at giant multinational conglomerate, and the only way to advance beyond token raises was to shmooze with the white boys' club at the bar after hours during the annual company technical convention. It was deeply depressing, because in general the only people that were advanced in the company were (shock!) white men. I hated it then, and hate it now. I'm thankful I've never worked at a place where day drinking was expected.

This kind of shitty peer pressure is worthless and has no place in the modern workplaces.
posted by Existential Dread at 9:32 AM on May 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I personally like a drink, but not more than one or two with people I don't know very well. I mean, the point of drinking with coworkers is to enjoy their company, so if you're much more than a little lit, you're going to miss much of the conversation. I have, in the past, had to make a point of switching to just a Coke when other people were hassling a non-drinker, but I never once regretted it, because the non-drinkers are the most fun people to split off and talk to in that kind of group dynamic.

I really feel like people shouldn't drink at work or during a working day lunch, though-- quickest way to be denied worker's comp should anything unexpected happen to you on shift. This was a frequent discussion when I was still a framer-- pretty much all of us dearly wanted a pint at lunch, even the sober guy who liked to reminisce, but surprise broken glass or falling boxes or stabs with an old nail happened on most days and it wouldn't be fun at all to pay for the stitches/shots yourself. So we mostly just talked about it. Oddly enough, this library is the first job I've had where nobody's invited me for a drink, but it's a much less macho environment.
posted by blnkfrnk at 9:32 AM on May 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


As another non-drinker, this is still a factor even if you're male. There are people who will view your "no thanks, I don't drink" as some sort of threat or challenge. "Why not?", "have you tried x beer/cider/hard soda?", etc. All with the subtext of "what's wrong with you?"
I turned down a job at a small firm partially due to their excited expounding on having a beer fridge in the breakroom and bashes every Friday. Not likely to work out well in terms of "culture fit".
posted by bitmage at 9:46 AM on May 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


I worked at a startup that developed a drinking problem. Every major release, every close call, every milestone reached, every offsite and team building exercise was planned around alcohol. One or two people passed out in their own vomit, a couple of fights, destruction of property. That was the expected outcome. It was terrible, even for someone like me who likes to get drunk, but not stupid drunk.

How did we fix it? We got an athletics problem. Now everything was about cycling, snowboarding, cutthroat ping pong, etc...

This was way worse in terms of peer pressure, exclusion of many employees from the inner circle, and deterioration of interpersonal relationships.

You had to like sports, and you had to be good at them an take them seriously. At least there are many valid reasons not to drink, but we all know exercise is good. If you don't spend half your salary on a bike and go on 100 mile rides with the execs on weekends, you must be some lazy slobby fuck who writes lazy slobby code.

My solution? Kill offsites and team building and enforced office fun. Happy about a major release? Give everyone $50 and tell them to take Friday off to do whatever the fuck they enjoy doing. Which in my case would still be drinking with co-workers, on our own terms.
posted by Doroteo Arango II at 9:53 AM on May 20, 2016 [46 favorites]


It's easy to understand the issue if you swap cigarettes for drinks.

Imagine pressuring somebody to have just one cigarette to be part of the team.
posted by srboisvert at 9:56 AM on May 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


The pressure can exist even when it's not overt or asshole-related. I'm involved in a creative community, and a lot of its events include alcohol just out of routine. We go to the bar after meetings. We bring alcohol to our parties. Our special events are things like brewery tours or pub crawls. It's just what we've done in the past and what we continue doing.

Non-drinkers are absolutely cherished and welcomed, and nobody would put them on the spot! But who wants to potentially stand out? Who wants to risk being teased for not drinking or being a killjoy for suggesting going for coffee instead? And how many people have we already silently pressured out with these alcohol-included events?

I'm sure that this group would be open to less alcohol-centered events, but it does mean someone taking the risk and suggesting a break from comfortable routine.
posted by cadge at 10:03 AM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Drinking culture is just the most visible problem. Hang around Silicon Valley long enough and the coke stories come out.
posted by naju at 10:04 AM on May 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


There are kind of knives coming in every direction in this one. Binge drinking is an increasingly large problem. The rise of cleanse/purification diet culture where people judge themselves super harshly for putting alcohol in their bodies (even in the smallest dose in kombicha) is tiresome and not so healthy either. There is constant peer pressure to conform, but still severe judgment (and perhaps career consequences) if you disclose being an alcoholic. If you drink with your coworkers and drink too much, especially as a woman, what happens at Happy Hour doesn't stay at happy hour. If you drink with your coworkers, as a woman, you run the risk of dodging your boss's drunken hands and passes all night (ask me how I know). (Although it's pretty enlightening to stay sober and find out which of the older male partners you respect will start calling you "honey" or "darling" after 3 beers.) Every minute you spend drinking with coworkers is one more minute on the job, away from your family or friends or hobbies or other personal life stuff, and I suspect the drinking in start-ups is another facet of the "we will supply your every need so you no longer need to leave the office" mentality.
posted by sallybrown at 10:06 AM on May 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


In the case of the champagne anecdote, I suspect that if Sarah Jane Coffey had been Steven John Coffey, there would not have been nearly as much pressure from the male founder.

No fucking way.

I've met Sarah, who works/lives in Boulder, and I shared a job with one of her coworkers she has RebootHQ.

Boulder startup culture is super beer heavy. Almost every office has a keg. February is Stout Month at local chain of brewpubs, and during that time everyone goes and has a couple 9% pints of stouts for lunch. Lots of companies have after hours meet ups, and everyone one of those will have all the beer you could possible drink.

When I interviewed out there, they took me to a bicycle-themed hamburger place and we did it over three pints each of Upslope.

So yeah, if she were Steve, the pressure would not be in any less. It might have been strong, based on the "come on bro" aspect.
posted by sideshow at 10:07 AM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


In my experience, I haven't seen much in the way of an HR department to report a 'violation' to in the first place.

oh, you mean the founder's wife, who is also working a remote job for another company?
posted by indubitable at 10:10 AM on May 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


I don't get it.

I am full of entity for this person as the office non-drinker. But this person is an adult and at some point comments like those in the article are funnier than they are biting; I say this not as s young person who doesn't know but rather after 20 years of working in frequently alcohol centric workplaces ( only two of which were startups, so no, startups do not particularly have this problem - yay startup bashing or whatever ).

The thing is, underlying this article is the basic complaint that the author has failed to *otherwise establish rapport* with their colleagues and so the very trivial, minor stings are received as - and may actually be - stinging social rejections.

The author needs to grow up. Drinking culture and both white and blue collar careers have had huge overlap pretty much forever. It is neither new nor unique to startups. Non-drinkers have needed to accept a degree of social non-overlap for the entire time just as much as people who have no interest in sports, who have socially challenging dietary restrictions, etc.
posted by rr at 10:24 AM on May 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


I am working on a graduate degree in a field of study whose practitioners seem to venerate alcohol (beer, especially). I get that, because for a while I venerated it even more than they do. The big yearly conferences are awash in beer, and I've heard legends about the local bars getting drunk dry. I heard my advisor joined a game of beer pong with some of the grad students at the semester-end party a few weeks ago. Crack shot, apparently.

I wasn't there for that. I had politely shown my face for a little while and then gone home. Because sobriety is what holds the rest of my life in place. That thing the author said, about breezing from sober to blacked out in less than 30 minutes? That was me, towards the end. My glass would empty itself so quickly and easily, and I'd fill it again. And now, years into sobriety, being around alcohol -- the smell of it, the drunken good cheer -- is still uncomfortable. So I don't attend drinking events unless I have an excellent reason to. This is not always easy; people have encouraged me to hang out more, and I am loath to tell them why I don't really want to.

I get what the author is talking about -- the awkwardness of trying to explain yourself without really explaining anything. Usually to well-meaning people who just don't get it. But thank God I've never had to contend with an asshole boss like the one she had. They say that no matter what your circumstances, no matter what anyone else says or does, you can stay sober through anything. But jagoffs like that don't make it any easier.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:29 AM on May 20, 2016 [10 favorites]


The last company I worked for had almost the opposite problem, even on team building outings nobody would order alcohol unless our manager ordered first. Even then, there was strong pressure not to have more than two drinks.
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:35 AM on May 20, 2016


Grumpybear69:
In 1999 I worked at a web consultancy in San Francisco
In 1999 I also worked at a web consultancy, and we had an office in San Francisco. Agency? MarchFirst? RedSky?
posted by uberchet at 10:42 AM on May 20, 2016


The author needs to grow up. Drinking culture and both white and blue collar careers have had huge overlap pretty much forever.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw
posted by Etrigan at 10:44 AM on May 20, 2016 [31 favorites]


God I'm so glad I live in a state where marijuana is legal finally. I remember the drudgery days of spending time with drinkers in some shithole town I lived in because it was the only thing that people had to do to distract them from the hollow emptiness of their lives in a nowhere town. Now I can finally suffocate the drudgery by getting high with my buddies smoking on the porch in our shithole town.

I don't think it's just startups that have a drinking problem. Considering how much and how often I've been pressured to have a drink just in my freaking social circles throughout my life, I would obviously argue that this whole damn country has a drinking problem. This is not just a problem in start-ups.

Can we stop pretending that internet startup companies are somehow the direct center of the universe and that the people in them experience "different" problems somehow? It's the same problem all Americans deal with, self-medicating to deal with the soul-crushing waste of their lives working for some company who will never actually give a fuck about them.

Now, if I could only find a decent job that doesn't drug test for weed for me to sit in a chair all day.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:45 AM on May 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


The author needs to grow up. Drinking culture and both white and blue collar careers have had huge overlap pretty much forever. It is neither new nor unique to startups. Non-drinkers have needed to accept a degree of social non-overlap for the entire time just as much as people who have no interest in sports, who have socially challenging dietary restrictions, etc.

Problem is, it's not just social. It impacts your advancement prospects, your retention prospects, your networking ability, all of it. It's not a crime to point out that hey, this widespread behavior is deeply problematic, and impacts women disproportionately. We don't all need to "grow up," if that means swallowing the shit of the world with no attempts to change it or spit it out.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:48 AM on May 20, 2016 [33 favorites]


As long as employers try to get their coworkers to bond over something other than work, some people are going to be left out. Drinking is obviously extra problematic, but I can't think of anything else that doesn't exclude some people... so maybe just don't try to do that
posted by Mitrovarr at 10:59 AM on May 20, 2016


In 1999 I also worked at a web consultancy, and we had an office in San Francisco. Agency? MarchFirst? RedSky?

Oven Digital.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:00 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


What I have realized about people who are uncomfortable with me not drinking in social situaltions is that I can start off looking at that situation like this: they are actually concerned that I am not enjoying myself or am unhappy. That's a good situation and it can be defused easily. This is typical for being a guest at a party in someone's home, it makes them anxious to see people without a drink sometimes. You can talk to them or just drink something else.

Of more difficulty is when people take you not wanting to drink with them as an active rejection of them, or an intentional signal of dislike or contempt, or as "judging them". The kind of idea that drinking a shot (of champagne for chrissakes, not even decent booze) is essential to a ritual of commemorating your startup milestone or whatever , and is a REALLY BIG TEAM DEAL, lends itself to this sort of trainwreck, where people are ready to interpret an employee not drinking (for whatever reason!) as some kind of sabotage of the hoodoo and act on it by bullying them like middle schoolers. Really you'd hope that people with employees would have enough sense to realize that you can't pressure them to drink alcohol, but ya go to war with the army you have......
posted by thelonius at 11:01 AM on May 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't work at a startup but we also have a bird problem! The problem is: dumb birds; people leaving windows/doors open; no screens. Who you gonna call? Me, apparently.

I suppose, rtha, that people would assume you were skilled at capturing small birds, although that is totally stereotyping.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:02 AM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


On the Internet, no one knows rtha is a cat.
posted by Etrigan at 11:04 AM on May 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah I friggin' hate the alcohol culture in my sector.

I am not going to a bar for your meetup, and fuck you for holding it there.

I can't handle your drunken ramble unless I'm drunk, and I don't really like being drunk all too much and besides you aren't half as smart as you think while you're drunk. I know I'm not missing much if I just don't drink and also just don't show. I don't want to work with you or talk to you if it takes beer to get you in the door.

Fuck your social network if I need to go to a bar for networking.

Fuck your "culture" if you're trying to play the friggin' kegerator as a benefit, like I should consider it part of my total compensation. Oh, great, your people are allowed to drink during the day? Peace out.

All I want in terms of career is to practice my trade in the least unethical way I can manage. And my trade isn't getting drunk or talking to drunks or pretending to listen to drunks. What a friggin' bore.

All the piddly workarounds -- going to the events and drinking bitters and soda or coke -- it's all bullshit. It doesn't hide the fact you're not intoxicated, it doesn't shut up the drunks admiring their own inebriated brilliance and eloquence.

The only way this ends is if people drop out of it, and I'm willing to do it with no concern for my career or future. I encourage everyone to do the same if you've got the social capital to spare.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 11:04 AM on May 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


At my previous law firm, during the morning meeting after all of us got trashed in New Orleans and [sordid stories I will leave out], the associates were straight up told "I'm glad so many of you can handle your drink - it's a sign that you can hold your own in partner meetings." Because apparently to be partner material, you have to drink a lot, and partner meetings involve tons of booze. Is there a more clear, direct statement that drinking - and drinking a lot - is required to advance your career? It's not even hidden most of the time. Incidentally, the legal profession has incredibly high rates for alcoholism, depression, and anxiety.
posted by naju at 11:07 AM on May 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


Workplaces that pressure you to drink are a problem, absolutely.

But I don't think it's so simple as saying, "we shouldn't drink at work."

There's a reason alcohol in particular is the drug which plays this role in our culture: alcohol lowers inhibition. (Pot may be relaxing, but pot + inhibition= paranoia.)

And lowering inhibition enough to let people who are strangers to each other, some of whom hold power over each other, relax and form bonds is important. It builds trust. It's literally letting your guard down. That's why some people react so sourly when people decline to drink, they read it as the teetotaller being unwilling to let their guard down, not trusting the rest of the group enough to let their true self show.

My point is: Humans haven't been boozing for 6,000 years for no reason. Making workplace culture a teetotal culture would come with costs. That's not to say that we can't nudge things in a better direction.
posted by Diablevert at 11:09 AM on May 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


(of champagne for chrissakes, not even decent booze)

hey now
posted by rhizome at 11:10 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


jcreigh: Your dedication to accurately quoting something you heard in a bar 17 years ago, including not changing a single letter without indicating it, is making me so happy right now.

I know techbros are looked down upon here, but you must have some respect for a person who actually speaks in the Chicago Style Manual.
posted by dr_dank at 11:17 AM on May 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


The author needs to grow up. Drinking culture and both white and blue collar careers have had huge overlap pretty much forever. It is neither new nor unique to startups. Non-drinkers have needed to accept a degree of social non-overlap for the entire time just as much as people who have no interest in sports, who have socially challenging dietary restrictions, etc.

I'm all for having beer in the fridge at work. I'm against non-drinkers being pressured to drink, or especially to get fucked up. Do you have a problem with part two, here?
posted by atoxyl at 11:19 AM on May 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm a software engineer, who spent a lot of time applying for jobs last year. What's interesting about tech is that startup norms penetrate into even the most established companies. IBM might not have a pool table and a bar in the office, but Google sure does. So it's also de rigeur for any job listing looking for a developer to advertise the company culture, and how laid back and friendly to work-life-balance it is. So it was utterly fascinating, from a vaguely sociological perspective, to look at how different offices I interviewed in (who all had the same basic platitudes on the recruiting pages) actually treated their perks. Many (most?) of them had a beer fridge, or even a keg or two in the office. One (where I am now working--more on that in a second) had both, and a full bar setup on one floor of the office. Most memorable, though, was an interview at a startup whose ads promised that their staff had a love for not only craft beer, but also craft bourbon. I like me some bourbon as much as the next guy, so I was interested to see how that fit into office culture.

As it turns out, "affinity for craft bourbon" meant that there were bottles of Buffalo Trace and Woodford Reserve. Lots of bottles. In fact, everyone's desk (or open-concept innovation area, or whatever the hell it was) had one or more open bottles stashed underneath it, with varying levels remaining. No one I talked to was slurring words or anything, but I mentioned it to one of my interviewers (who must have been all of 23), and she became noticeably uncomfortable and a tad defensive of her coworkers. They had actually succeeded in creating an office culture with an alcohol problem.

Like I said, the place I now work has a full bar in it. Once a week, we all cut out early and grab a pint and some snacks there. Sometimes there will be a "how to make/enjoy esoteric alcoholic drink X" seminar. I have a couple of coworkers who have never attended, and now I'm trying to think really hard about whether I've seen any pressure directed toward them about it.
posted by Mayor West at 11:23 AM on May 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's Friday. I'm going to to start up getting fucked up right about now.

I wish I liked my coworkers enough to ever want to get drunk with them.
posted by josher71 at 11:24 AM on May 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Incidentally, the legal profession has incredibly high rates for alcoholism, depression, and anxiety.

I'm not a lawyer - I am a software developer - but man do lawyers drink a lot.

Anyway I'm for the idea of allowing a little bit of alcohol at work because it's a way of saying "we trust you to to be responsible about this." But you know, there is the other side of that bargain, where you do have to be responsible about it. And a person in authority pushing booze on others is all bad news.
posted by atoxyl at 11:32 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


My company strikes what I think is a pretty good balance, but I do drink so I can't know how it feels for those who don't. We do have special occasions maybe 4-6 times a year that include alcohol: summer party, holiday party, retirement celebrations and maybe a few other events. We might have mimosas available at someone's birthday or work anniversary celebration. But people do not get shitfaced at work during work hours, and I've known plenty of non-drinkers and have never seen even the slightest pressure to have a drink. It's very "here it is, if you want some, help yourself." Maybe it matters that we have more women than men on staff, and we're a non-profit.

I actually have a bottle of bourbon in my desk drawer. But it's there from a couple summers ago when a large bottle was all I could find and I was going to a free movie in the park after work and wanted to bring along a little flask. The only time since then it's been touched is during the office holiday party.

We have a vending machine with soft drinks and it's Friday afternoon after a stressful week and there's a little part of me that would like to put some of that bourbon into this lime La Croix I'm drinking... but that would be completely inappropriate in this office.

So, it is possible to have a culture that allows for the kinds of "stress relief" and "bonding" (scare quotes intended) that alcohol affords without pushing the booze on anyone or ending up in a situation where people are getting loaded at their desk. I like working somewhere that maintains that balance.
posted by misskaz at 11:34 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I know techbros are looked down upon here, but you must have some respect for a person who actually speaks in the Chicago Style Manual.

I mean, technically we were called "dotcommers" back then. Full-on bro culture hadn't invaded yet.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:41 AM on May 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Another thing I left out about Boulder, where the author works: A very large percentage of the tech work force does not drive to work. So, "I need to be sober to drive home" isn't a reason to hold off, like it is where I work now (Los Angeles).

I worked for a 20ish person agency on Pearl, and maybe half of us drove into the office at any given point of the year. On Mondays a bunch of us would go to The Bitter Bar since industry people got half off until 6 or 7. The rest of the time, the boss would declare at 6pm that work was over (they were real big on not letting people work too late) and we'd get ready for some Starcraft 2 and beer. 2 or 3 beers later, everyone would get on their bike or (like in my case) catch the bus home.
posted by sideshow at 11:44 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Years ago I worked at the local University in an analytical chemistry lab that served agricultural researchers, so us lab rats were career non academic staff (our union was called NASA, which I loved and I still have my old union card because hey: I was in NASA). Because of how office space was divided on campus the administrators for the department were in an office building on one end of campus, with all the other admin staff, and we were in a more conventional University building of lab spaces and lecture theaters and spent our days working with the academics. Anyways, the academic staff and students in our building had a hard core drinking culture. They were always going out for beers and so on, and would have crazy drinking parties at the end of the semester.

This was very strongly discouraged for the non academic staff. Instead we would go for coffee during the day for meetings, had a pancake breakfast in the quad (summer on campus is always the best) to celebrate the end of school, and a kid friendly christmas party that was completely dry but had Santa. At the time I kind of resented it as the academic staff seemed to be having all the fun and I was stuck with "family friendly".

In more recent times I worked at an engineering company where all the engineers would go out for beer and wings on wednesday for lunch, out for beers after work on Friday, and the christmas party was just a booze soaked bacchanal of bad decisions. The drinking culture ended up very much like you would expect, it was a way to exclude women (bros going out to the pub) and people who don't drink (which in my company was the mormons). The after work drinks were what really bothered me because I had to drive home afterwards and I obviously didn't want to drive drunk, and yet this was where the pressure to keep drinking was the strongest. That the pub had a breathalyzer on the wall should have been a sign.

Looking back now I see why the University staff structured things like they did: For one when our work day was over we went home, all extra activities took place during the day so they didn't mess with our life and schedules outside of work, in contrast many of the academic staff (esp. post docs) basically lived in their labs. For another pancake breakfasts and hanging out at one of the many cafes on campus is just more inclusive. It wasn't a party but then work shouldn't be a party. Work should be work.
posted by selenized at 11:45 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


In the case of the champagne anecdote, I suspect that if Sarah Jane Coffey had been Steven John Coffey, there would not have been nearly as much pressure from the male founder.
----
it's even harder to say "I don't want to do that" if you feel vulnerable because you're, for example, a woman or person of color or queer person or a person with disability issues or some combination of these or anything else that makes you feel like an outsider.
----
So yeah, if she were Steve, the pressure would not be in any less. It might have been strong, based on the "come on bro" aspect.


This is a good example of how these things are confusing. As a big middle aged white guy I'm not going to get any less, and probably way more pressure in this situation. There are the special assholes, but most white guys are going to be way more comfortable giving another white guy shit than anyone else, in my experience.

The difference is I can usually fight back easier and not lose my standing, that's the privilege part.

I still have to face the same worry about being ostracized (hypothetically), but I'm not starting out as an outsider already. It's like sumo wrestling, someone is going to be pushing you no matter who you are, but it's a lot harder if you start out on the edge than firmly in the middle.
posted by bongo_x at 11:47 AM on May 20, 2016 [13 favorites]


I only drink a few times a year, and usually only in certain kinds of social situations. I don't like drinking at work at all. I've worked for a couple SV startups, although it was a little while ago now, and didn't feel this pressure at all. It varies widely by company. And its not just startups, of course.

In the Large Tech Companies I've worked for there, it's more by team and not by company. I've been lucky enough to be on teams where there is no explicit pressure to drink and no consequences for it. But I've heard of other people at my company complain about teams where that is not the case.

In tech, and in other industries (I've heard about it in finance as well, for example) there is a certain kind of person that likes to brag about their drinking, usually also the kind that likes to brag about working too much, etc. If a team has too many of those, it can create a competitive drinking/working culture that looks pretty toxic to me.

I'm lucky enough that even if I ended up on such a team, I could probably transfer/change companies easy enough. But that shouldn't be necessary, really.
posted by thefoxgod at 11:49 AM on May 20, 2016


Drinking on the job (or during workday lunch) is so foreign a concept in this Southern, Fortune-500 financial institution, not only would it be undoubtedly frowned upon but further it is quite likely you would be officially written up.

Some of your progressive workplaces sound like fucking heaven.
posted by bologna on wry at 12:01 PM on May 20, 2016


... don't even get me started on the Bible-quoting and very common public prayers when gathered for a mandatory work event...
posted by bologna on wry at 12:03 PM on May 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


and now I'm trying to think really hard about whether I've seen any pressure directed toward them about it

Nobody has to say anything for the pressure to exist. Whether it's drinking or cycling (also seen that one a lot, usually after drinking-related scare of some sort) or eating meat or even company volunteer gigs, people who cannot or will not participate - especially when management or the big players are present and participating - are left out and they know it. Even if management doesn't mean to, they'll feel friendlier and more inclined toward the people they recognize or feel like they know.

As long as employers try to get their coworkers to bond over something other than work, some people are going to be left out.

I have worked one place that had extremely strong policies of "no events outside work hours except *maybe* the holiday party", and a sort of stiff-seeming company social culture, primarily in the service of work-life balance. Someone actually told me all this in the interview, and said, "We don't really do work hard/play hard, we do work hard/leave work. We have regular mandatory company and department meetings during work hours that we try to put thought into so that everyone has a good, happy, knowledgeable work relationship, and that's as much of your life as you should have to give us." It was an amazing place to work and an introvert's paradise, but it was surprisingly tough to hire for fit because a lot of people would rather get ahead via privilege, or had never had any experience with how hard you have to work when you're expected to do nothing but work. And all it took was one iffy hire (always in Sales) who'd come roaring in ready to start a softball team and have happy hours, and it would ruffle everyone and make the introverts nervous until someone finally tamped down the newbie or they left.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:05 PM on May 20, 2016 [37 favorites]


Even if management doesn't mean to, they'll feel friendlier and more inclined toward the people they recognize or feel like they know.

I guess I'm going to have to pick up the other side a little here and say this really is inevitable to an extent though. I guess the closest I come to solving the problems that come up is

a.) if you are a person in a leadership/authority position you should try to engage with people's own interests as much as possible

b.) more than anything within each company and at the industry level it's important to get as diverse a set of people into leadership/authority positions as possible to balance out the overall effects and make sure there's a place for everybody to fit in
posted by atoxyl at 12:19 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


like I'd have a really hard time saying that it's bad for people within a company to cluster by shared interest. but it sucks if there's nobody like you
posted by atoxyl at 12:25 PM on May 20, 2016


"We don't really do work hard/play hard, we do work hard/leave work."

That is fantastic.
posted by bongo_x at 12:25 PM on May 20, 2016 [18 favorites]


Yeah, I've worked for some Very Boozy, very established old-line organizations, some go-go tech firms with a free-spending sales organization and regular open bar nights, and tiny little ones where no-one drank at all, and there was no pressure to partake. Those not drinking were enjoying appetizers or just conversation, and no-one really flew off the handle.

I was tangentially involved with a company that bought another, where they had to keep a fridge stocked with beer and a cabinet full of liquor as part of the deal, as the one-in-a-million genius programmer couldn't function without a drink. It was kind of sad - no-one else touched it but him, and he worked very odd hours, usually alone, and churned out one hell of an application on a metronome-like schedule. I kind of wonder how that conversation went down, and what kind of thought process management was following where "OK, if we lose this guy, we're fucked, so let's enable his alcoholism" seemed reasonable. The new company followed the same line of thinking, apparently.
posted by Slap*Happy at 12:29 PM on May 20, 2016 [9 favorites]


Imagine pressuring somebody to have just one cigarette to be part of the team.

I used to work for an organization where important networking occurred and decisions got made at the smoke pit. It was easy to tell who was in the loop, and who wasn't.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:53 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've worked most of my career in the insurance industry, where drinking during work hours or at lunch is a definite no. We still all get along fine.

Today, in the name of team building, one of the departments in my office made a big batch of fixings for frito pie (groceries paid for by the company), and invited the whole company of 60-ish people. People were welcome to include or not include meat on their plate, skip the fritos entirely, heck skip the food entirely and just have a can of soda or a glass of lemonade and say hello. It was really nice. And also really work-appropriate.
posted by antimony at 12:59 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's easy to understand the issue if you swap cigarettes for drinks.

Imagine pressuring somebody to have just one cigarette to be part of the team.



Pot is legal here.
I know of at least one company where it has replaced beer.

Granted it is a small "creative" company so I think inclined that way anyway, but it will be interesting to see what happens at some larger business company picnics this summer...
posted by madajb at 1:02 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


don't even get me started on the Bible-quoting and very common public prayers when gathered for a mandatory work event

man this is way more horrifying to me than some dudebro being like COME ON IT'S JUST A BUD ICE
posted by poffin boffin at 1:05 PM on May 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


oh yeah,as a nondrinker, I'd much rather deal with beer pong than jaysus pushers.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:25 PM on May 20, 2016


Y'all should try journalism.

The drink culture isn't what it used to be in the 90s, and that wasn't what it used to be in the 60s, but I can assure you that it is still significant and used to be legendary. It is also ungendered - one of the booziest places I worked had >50% female upper management, including the CFO and the MD, and they were as keen as anyone to maintain the corporate party budget at the highest sustainable level. Nor is it bro-ish pressured; it was fine not to drink, and we had some who couldn't for health reasons, some because they had dried out, some because they weren't big drinkers, and that was absolutely fine with everyone. Inasmuch as a corporate culture of dedicated excess could co-exist with pretty good internal ethics, we managed that. HR was among the booziest of the lot, and there were plenty of by-the-book HR violations which were part of the fun of the place. But anything that was in any way bullying or coercive or bullshit, was taken very seriously and dealt with, as far as possible through peer pressure, but if something had to go to procedure, it most certainly did.

I don't condone serious workplace drinking, but it is not necessarily something that reduces a place's efficiency or poisons its culture. We had a very good culture, open and fair, that took everyone's concerns seriously and had a low toleration for bullshit, with remarkably little anxiety (at least about workplace stuff) and (I discovered subsequently when I had more comparison points) very little nasty politics.

And we drank. A lot.
posted by Devonian at 1:53 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'd have a really hard time saying that it's bad for people within a company to cluster by shared interest. but it sucks if there's nobody like you

This goes both ways -- I had a reasonably wide range of interests naturally, I think, but I cultivate some that are not "my group"'s interests so I have something to talk about with a wider group of people. And boy, have I gotten a lot of pushback about this, mostly from people invested in strict gender or political roles. Seems to me part of the payoff for sorting interests by group is that it automatically reinforces the group boundaries -- men and women will never have anything to talk about, and neither will conservatives and liberals, or people of different generations.
posted by clew at 1:56 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I cultivate some that are not "my group"'s interests so I have something to talk about with a wider group of people. And boy, have I gotten a lot of pushback about this, mostly from people invested in strict gender or political roles.

People give you guff for having interests that they don't share with you? What industry are you in?
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:59 PM on May 20, 2016


Try journalism

When I worked in advertising I used to wake up in a hedge or on a boat at least once a month.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:30 PM on May 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


I just started at a medical devices company and I'm happy to say no one drinks at work(!), or at lunch. Quite a change from all the normal tech companies I've worked at.
posted by monotreme at 2:42 PM on May 20, 2016


On a boat?!?
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:43 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


On the side of the road, in a different city, or in an unknown apartment with total strangers watching Eight Men Out and being on the verge of tears, totally explainable, but at least I never woke up on a boat like that guy.
posted by bongo_x at 2:54 PM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


important networking occurred and decisions got made at the smoke pit. It was easy to tell who was in the loop, and who wasn't.

I'm sure the in crowd had a certain air about them.
posted by bitmage at 3:41 PM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


"we trust you to to be responsible about this."

BWAAHAhahahahaaaaa!! HAH! . AAAHahahaha ha hah ha Heeeee hee heeeee!! Oh! Oh god! Oh! . .PffBawahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa!!!

*snort* Nf! Eeh! Ah cripes! Mmfph! Mh mh mnh hahahAHAAAAAaaaaaahhhh!!! Ahh ah . . . hoo! Ehh. Heh. Oh maan. Eh. Hmn. Heh. Ehh. good times.
posted by petebest at 3:59 PM on May 20, 2016


Diablevert: "That's why some people react so sourly when people decline to drink, they read it as the teetotaller being unwilling to let their guard down, not trusting the rest of the group enough to let their true self show. "

This certianly is the case. I had one of my university professors tell me, after I said no thanks to a beer (at his place not school), that he "just doesn't trust anyone who doesn't drink".

. . .

"Well, OK then."
posted by Mitheral at 4:27 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


they read it as the teetotaller being unwilling to let their guard down

That's why my startup will inject everyone with sodium pentothal. It's a team building exercise!
posted by Monochrome at 4:59 PM on May 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


That's why my startup will inject everyone with sodium pentothal

That's kid stuff. Try snorting dried monkey glands through the hollow finger bones of orphans and move down from there. It's part of the corporate culture around these parts.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:30 PM on May 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Genji, where exactly would one go to 'try' that....I need to know for a friend.
posted by Drumhellz at 5:52 PM on May 20, 2016


Pit of Blasphemies, LLC. We've has some good funding rounds and attracted the interest of some angel investors. Well, to a point.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:03 PM on May 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've had a few years of fairly heavy drinking workplaces, and it's gotten old. I'd be fine at this point with a place that had a zero-alcohol policy for anything company-related, quite honestly; the pleasures of the drinking workplace get stale quickly. The worst are the semi-mandatory strip club trips, which boggles my mind that it still happens in this day and age.

I take that back. The worst was a small business where the owner's wife wouldn't let him drink at home, so he did all his drinking at work, and everyone had to go along to one extent or another. You would think that sitting in the office at 2pm (or 10 am) holding a beer would be fun, but it is actually about the most pathetic experience I have ever had.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:07 PM on May 20, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'd be fine at this point with a place that had a zero-alcohol policy for anything company-related, quite honestly

Come join us in local government! There may be some politician-schmoozey jobs, but social services is pretty alcohol-free. Especially since many of our services are for clients dealing with substance abuse.
posted by lazuli at 8:10 PM on May 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


People give you guff for having interests that they don't share with you? What industry are you in?

No, dumber than that, coworker programmers would repeatedly be So Surprised that I was also interested in technical stuff even though hello, what do we do all day here? Now morphed into Cool Girl and Fake Geek Girl dynamics, I guess. But the next step was the strict-dyad thinkers being surprised that I also liked something coded female, because they'd wrestled me into a Coworker box.
posted by clew at 10:54 PM on May 20, 2016


On a boat?!?

London, I presume. Gert loads of boats in that London.
posted by ambrosen at 4:13 AM on May 21, 2016


Whether it's drinking or cycling (also seen that one a lot, usually after drinking-related scare of some sort) or eating meat or even company volunteer gigs, people who cannot or will not participate - especially when management or the big players are present and participating - are left out and they know it.

I work at one of these companies that has beer at things. Somehow, I ended up on the team with people who don't drink or don't drink at work, so my immediate area is free from pressure to drink (though I don't have much hope for sales in that department) but which also had the majority of dev's vegetarians for most of the time I've worked here. The amount of lobbying we had to do to convince whoever orders food for things that we don't eat barbecue and could they please remember that was absurd. We tried "Hey, we exist" emails, which didn't work. Eventually a coworker went for sending a thank you email every time there was a real vegetarian option, which did work. Somehow if you order sandwiches, it's obvious you should get a few non-meat ones, but clearly everyone eats barbecue.
posted by hoyland at 6:27 AM on May 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm old and don't drink... When I pass on the keggers or have a Diet Coke with the group, then leave early, I have never received shit for it, at least not to my face. If you're female and over 40 no one cares whether you join in the "fun."

But I've never had a bullying alcoholic boss who demanded partners in partying to cover their tracks, unlike the author of the linked article.

Alcoholism will or won't be an issue in corporate cultures: the problem here was that a bully got promoted to manager, AGAIN. WHY DO WE KEEP REWARDING THESE PEOPLE FOR BAD BEHAVIOR.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 7:59 AM on May 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Working as an archaeologist and my experiences in online dating long ago crystallized a realization for me, which, I've also learned can be applied broadly, that any person or community explicitly touting itself as embracing the mantra "work hard, play hard", is likely to be full of unrepentant, immature, self-centered assholes.
posted by Queen of Spreadable Fats at 11:07 AM on May 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


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