Let's not talk about color vs. colour
May 23, 2016 9:45 PM Subscribe
Lynne Murphy's blog is 'Separated By A Common Language'. It turns out being polite is different in the UK and the US and there are specific differences in the way each culture (and subcultures thereto) use please.
The Allusionist has interviews and more links, and a follow-up with more about 'thank you' and reader responses along the lines of 'this explains so much'.
Also, the 'Cincinatti please'!
The Allusionist has interviews and more links, and a follow-up with more about 'thank you' and reader responses along the lines of 'this explains so much'.
Also, the 'Cincinatti please'!
The SBaCL blog is a gem. It was recommended a few years ago when I had a silly language AskMe and now it's in my RSS and I follow her on Twitter. Perfect for us language nerds with no formal education but deep interest in the matter.
posted by downtohisturtles at 10:14 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by downtohisturtles at 10:14 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is so interesting.
while ‘thank you‘ is still important to civilized discourse, I find that ‘please‘ has almost the opposite effect in American English. It can make a question sound urgent, blunt, and even downright rude.
As an American I have noticed this in the written communications with coworkers in and from India. The way that they phrase things sometimes would sometimes come off even as kind of snotty if I didn't know they were being exceedingly polite. Here when you say "please" in some ways, like where it sits in the sentence syntax, seems to imply that you've already asked several times and that you're now frustrated.
Another thing I noticed is people who say "I'll do the [grilled cheese]"... when ordering which I usually find really obnoxious but now I guess in this light makes sense. But to me I'm like "You are not doing anything, you're asking for something. Use the right verbs, people!" But I never connected it to people's discomfort with "please". I guess with this context it at least makes a little sense. I just say "I'll have the grilled cheese and a coke please" if it's a waiter (exactly like the article says, because I'm giving the waiter the information they need) or "Can I please have" at a register. Which doesn't sound snotty because I don't emphasize the "please".
posted by bleep at 10:15 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
while ‘thank you‘ is still important to civilized discourse, I find that ‘please‘ has almost the opposite effect in American English. It can make a question sound urgent, blunt, and even downright rude.
As an American I have noticed this in the written communications with coworkers in and from India. The way that they phrase things sometimes would sometimes come off even as kind of snotty if I didn't know they were being exceedingly polite. Here when you say "please" in some ways, like where it sits in the sentence syntax, seems to imply that you've already asked several times and that you're now frustrated.
Another thing I noticed is people who say "I'll do the [grilled cheese]"... when ordering which I usually find really obnoxious but now I guess in this light makes sense. But to me I'm like "You are not doing anything, you're asking for something. Use the right verbs, people!" But I never connected it to people's discomfort with "please". I guess with this context it at least makes a little sense. I just say "I'll have the grilled cheese and a coke please" if it's a waiter (exactly like the article says, because I'm giving the waiter the information they need) or "Can I please have" at a register. Which doesn't sound snotty because I don't emphasize the "please".
posted by bleep at 10:15 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
My experience is that requests phrased as "I'll have some of that/those" are becoming more common in Australia, which is a sure sign of the collapse of civilisation. When I hear that construction coming from my kids I respond "Oh, you will, will you?" and sit back while they fume, potato- (or stew or chicken or whatever)- lessly.
That'll teach 'em, I think to myself, although it never does.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:16 PM on May 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
That'll teach 'em, I think to myself, although it never does.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:16 PM on May 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
I'm learning so much about why I find the way other people order food irritating in ways I probably shouldn't!
posted by Artw at 10:16 PM on May 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:16 PM on May 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I was always told not to say please in an ordering context because you're not in a personal relationship with the server, but a business transaction, and it's rude and ...slimy? To force a more personal relationship where none exists. It's like you're trying to butter them up. Please is for asking favors of friends and family members.
"Is it possible" is used when making requests that aren't bone standard.
Context: seersucker mid Atlantic WASP
posted by The Whelk at 10:22 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Is it possible" is used when making requests that aren't bone standard.
Context: seersucker mid Atlantic WASP
posted by The Whelk at 10:22 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
In Malawi the Chichewa word for 'please',chonde, is associated with begging. I learned this after several weeks of trying to be as polite as possible, when the manager of the lodge where I stayed finally broke it down for me, like 'Why are you saying chonde chonde chonde? You are paying for this, I am not doing you a favor!'
posted by palindromic at 10:36 PM on May 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by palindromic at 10:36 PM on May 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you include "please find attached" in an email but don't attach anything, Gmail will alert you with a pop up. Perhaps they should have another "Warning: don't say this to Americans!" one.
Phrases like "please find attached" are just standard boilerplate that people use because it's standard international business English, promoted by tests like TOEIC (ironically by an American organization). Does anyone really get emotionally engaged and feel one way or another when the read something like that? I think that's more socially inappropriate than using one phrasing or another.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 11:06 PM on May 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Phrases like "please find attached" are just standard boilerplate that people use because it's standard international business English, promoted by tests like TOEIC (ironically by an American organization). Does anyone really get emotionally engaged and feel one way or another when the read something like that? I think that's more socially inappropriate than using one phrasing or another.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 11:06 PM on May 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
"can I get" when ordering food has crept in here within the last 15 years.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 11:14 PM on May 23, 2016
posted by GallonOfAlan at 11:14 PM on May 23, 2016
To me, "please" isn't what makes a request sound bossy, it is phrasing as a command with the understood subject "you" ("please bring me a coke") as opposed to one with a first person subject ("I'd like a coke, please"). Whether this is a personal idiosyncrasy or not I don't know.
Also, I am from the US, and I have never had a problem with "please find attached" for what that is worth.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:24 PM on May 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
Also, I am from the US, and I have never had a problem with "please find attached" for what that is worth.
posted by pattern juggler at 11:24 PM on May 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
Why are you saying chonde chonde chonde? You are paying for this, I am not doing you a favor!'
Yes! Please implies a favor is being asked. I'm paying for this. I'm not asking you for a favor. You'd say please if you asking the server to personally excuse something unrelated to the business of ordering and being served food, I guess, but not during the main thing.
posted by The Whelk at 11:24 PM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes! Please implies a favor is being asked. I'm paying for this. I'm not asking you for a favor. You'd say please if you asking the server to personally excuse something unrelated to the business of ordering and being served food, I guess, but not during the main thing.
posted by The Whelk at 11:24 PM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Speaking as a non-native speaker, is "Dear Sussex University, can you please fire your video team, or at least buy a lamp." valid use?
If you include "please find attached" in an email but don't attach anything, Gmail will alert you with a pop up.
I'm pretty sure it triggers on "attached", not on "please", but may be wrong.
posted by effbot at 11:32 PM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you include "please find attached" in an email but don't attach anything, Gmail will alert you with a pop up.
I'm pretty sure it triggers on "attached", not on "please", but may be wrong.
posted by effbot at 11:32 PM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The idea that please is not to be used at all (at least spoken) for anything that's not out of the ordinary sounds overly harsh to me. As long as you're not putting the emphasis on it. Is that just me? (Also from the east coast)
posted by bleep at 11:33 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 11:33 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
[BrE] Saying please when I order food isn't because I think I'm asking the server a favour. It's a language marker to show you're ordering something politely.
Or to put it another way, not using it on purpose is a passive-aggressive reminder that you're in an unequal relationship. In a similar way to not saying thank-you or cheers to the bus driver can be a passive-aggressive comment on the journey in some respect.
posted by Braeburn at 11:37 PM on May 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
Or to put it another way, not using it on purpose is a passive-aggressive reminder that you're in an unequal relationship. In a similar way to not saying thank-you or cheers to the bus driver can be a passive-aggressive comment on the journey in some respect.
posted by Braeburn at 11:37 PM on May 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
Generally I think I err on the British side of "please" usage despite being American, but I do definitely do the "oh, *please*" condescension that is my national birthright. But one British polite-ism that drove me up the wall is an airline pre-flight recording that ends with "May we wish you a pleasant flight." My reactions to this are as follows:
(1) You've constructed it as a question but you're not asking it! The inflection at the end is definitely a statement, not a question!
(2) I don't know, may you?
(3) Dammit now I'm going to spend my entire flight overthinking this phrasing.
I guess the American equivalent would be to just say "Have a pleasant flight!", but I guess that's too imperative for the Brits, and "Please have a pleasant flight" sounds awkward, so you end up with "may we wish you". It sounds so, so wrong to my ears, argh.
posted by olinerd at 11:43 PM on May 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
(1) You've constructed it as a question but you're not asking it! The inflection at the end is definitely a statement, not a question!
(2) I don't know, may you?
(3) Dammit now I'm going to spend my entire flight overthinking this phrasing.
I guess the American equivalent would be to just say "Have a pleasant flight!", but I guess that's too imperative for the Brits, and "Please have a pleasant flight" sounds awkward, so you end up with "may we wish you". It sounds so, so wrong to my ears, argh.
posted by olinerd at 11:43 PM on May 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Pretty much.
posted by Artw at 11:43 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:43 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh and I forgot to say, the "May we wish you a pleasant flight" is preceded by other statements like "May we remind you that smoking is prohibited" and so forth -- again, none of it is inflected as a question, it's all statements, but the construction is question-ish. GAH.
posted by olinerd at 11:48 PM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by olinerd at 11:48 PM on May 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is a really interesting read. Without digressing too far from the regional conversation, there are many dimensions to "please" beyond the cultural - gender, age, social distance / familiarity, situational context, power relations. In my experience (Australian, having spent a bit of time in the States), I've found the gendered complexion to "please" tends to override the cultural aspect; I'm much more likely to hear women, regardless of geography, using politeness strategies like "please" to soften their requests. So, the association with begging can turn into a more fraught analysis. Which isn't to take away from the validity of the observations on the blog at all, since presumably the corporate emails corpora mentioned in 'Please Find Attached' would account for that.
On the cultural point, pattern juggler's distinction between a command with the understood subject "you" ("please bring me a coke") and one with a first person subject ("I'd like a coke, please"), and the preference for the latter, strikes very true to me.
posted by Collaterly Sisters at 11:56 PM on May 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
On the cultural point, pattern juggler's distinction between a command with the understood subject "you" ("please bring me a coke") and one with a first person subject ("I'd like a coke, please"), and the preference for the latter, strikes very true to me.
posted by Collaterly Sisters at 11:56 PM on May 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I was raised to say "May I please" when asking to do something, or "Would you please" when asking someone else to do something, both to be followed up quickly with a thank you.
Restaurant protocol is a little different. You don't need to say please because you have already said thank you. As in, "Thank you, I would like the anago meshi."
I say please quite often, and thank you, and I rarely say "can I" when I mean "may I," and so far nobody seems to get mad. I am sincere in my appreciation for the things I'm asking people to do, and I generally go out of my way to be polite about it.
I guess my mom taught me to be kind to strangers and kinder to friends. My dad is always brusque with waitstaff and salespeople and it vaguely embarrasses me.
I'm the son of a government worker and a librarian, raised just outside of Baltimore. My grandfather on my dad's side worked as a salesclerk in the main Chicago Sears store and my grandpa was a military nutritionist.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:06 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Restaurant protocol is a little different. You don't need to say please because you have already said thank you. As in, "Thank you, I would like the anago meshi."
I say please quite often, and thank you, and I rarely say "can I" when I mean "may I," and so far nobody seems to get mad. I am sincere in my appreciation for the things I'm asking people to do, and I generally go out of my way to be polite about it.
I guess my mom taught me to be kind to strangers and kinder to friends. My dad is always brusque with waitstaff and salespeople and it vaguely embarrasses me.
I'm the son of a government worker and a librarian, raised just outside of Baltimore. My grandfather on my dad's side worked as a salesclerk in the main Chicago Sears store and my grandpa was a military nutritionist.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:06 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
My experience is that requests phrased as "I'll have some of that/those" are becoming more common in Australia, which is a sure sign of the collapse of civilisation. When I hear that construction coming from my kids I respond "Oh, you will, will you?" and sit back while they fume, potato- (or stew or chicken or whatever)- lessly.
But it's accurate isn't it? You are probably rather unlikely to deny them food and they probably know that. So they will in fact have something. As a fellow Australian I fail to see how them telling you what they'll have is impolite in and of itself.
posted by deadwax at 12:29 AM on May 24, 2016
But it's accurate isn't it? You are probably rather unlikely to deny them food and they probably know that. So they will in fact have something. As a fellow Australian I fail to see how them telling you what they'll have is impolite in and of itself.
posted by deadwax at 12:29 AM on May 24, 2016
Yes! Please implies a favor is being asked. I'm paying for this. I'm not asking you for a favor.
In a British context this comes across as implying you can buy someone and will, on occasion, get met with a blank stare and a refusal to take your money. I once sent someone to the back of a queue of 200 people to try again when they were rude to me ordering food, and they did it.
(Meanwhile my boss was standing next to me, the whole time, pissing himself with laughter).
posted by tallus at 12:33 AM on May 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
In a British context this comes across as implying you can buy someone and will, on occasion, get met with a blank stare and a refusal to take your money. I once sent someone to the back of a queue of 200 people to try again when they were rude to me ordering food, and they did it.
(Meanwhile my boss was standing next to me, the whole time, pissing himself with laughter).
posted by tallus at 12:33 AM on May 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
you're not in a personal relationship with the server, but a business transaction
As a non-American/non native speaker of English this just baffles me. A server is a person, and for the tiny moment of contact you share, you do have a personal connection with them, even if it is purely business related. It makes no sense to me to talk to them as if they are an order-taking-robot ("I'll have a coffee"). I have always wondered why people on Mefi say that working in retail and food service sucks so much, because I never hated those jobs, but it starts to make sense now. Where I live, there are of course also people (usually older white men, now that I think about it) who just say "Coffee", but if everyone would talk to me like that it would seriously be cause for depression for me.
posted by blub at 12:34 AM on May 24, 2016 [47 favorites]
As a non-American/non native speaker of English this just baffles me. A server is a person, and for the tiny moment of contact you share, you do have a personal connection with them, even if it is purely business related. It makes no sense to me to talk to them as if they are an order-taking-robot ("I'll have a coffee"). I have always wondered why people on Mefi say that working in retail and food service sucks so much, because I never hated those jobs, but it starts to make sense now. Where I live, there are of course also people (usually older white men, now that I think about it) who just say "Coffee", but if everyone would talk to me like that it would seriously be cause for depression for me.
posted by blub at 12:34 AM on May 24, 2016 [47 favorites]
I require my kids to say "please" mostly so they will acquire the habit. If they think they can get away with not doing it because I'll feed them anyway then they're going to learn something about what it might really mean to be hungry! I require them not to swear, even though I do so a lot, for the same reason: they aren't yet able to judge when it's a good idea and when it's not, so it's better to err on the side of safety.
My sense is that "please" is a polite request (unless emphasised for contrary effect, as noted). Interactions with waiters are generally polite. Most interactions should at least start off polite. Salesmen trying to sell me things have already started the interaction by being impolite as as I'm concerned, so they get the same. Essentially, tit-for-tat game theory applies: take the default position of being polite and giving the benefit of any doubt, then go tit-for-tat from there.
This is all cultural though, and with much greater granularity than state/nation/language. As with the "chonde" anecdote upthread, I've heard people in southern Spain refer to English tourists as "por favores" because they say "por favor" (please) so much, in transactions where no favour is granted because money changes hands. But then note that the Spanish phrase is, literally, much more explicit in this respect.
posted by merlynkline at 12:45 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
My sense is that "please" is a polite request (unless emphasised for contrary effect, as noted). Interactions with waiters are generally polite. Most interactions should at least start off polite. Salesmen trying to sell me things have already started the interaction by being impolite as as I'm concerned, so they get the same. Essentially, tit-for-tat game theory applies: take the default position of being polite and giving the benefit of any doubt, then go tit-for-tat from there.
This is all cultural though, and with much greater granularity than state/nation/language. As with the "chonde" anecdote upthread, I've heard people in southern Spain refer to English tourists as "por favores" because they say "por favor" (please) so much, in transactions where no favour is granted because money changes hands. But then note that the Spanish phrase is, literally, much more explicit in this respect.
posted by merlynkline at 12:45 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hail, noble and just plenipotentiary of the engine of our economy, of a powerful and well-beloved business whose corporate existence is a blessing to our nation! Perchance that I, the least worthy of petitioners, whose very existence in your premises is possible only at your merciful sufferance, might present you, with utter humility and in full cognisance of my lowly and undeserving position, an unmerited request - yea, a plea for some magnificent boon which - I can but hope beyond hope! - you, with limitless splendour and infinite sanctity, might see fit to depose upon my base and wretched personage? A mocha.
No cream.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 12:59 AM on May 24, 2016 [43 favorites]
No cream.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 12:59 AM on May 24, 2016 [43 favorites]
I am unsettled that some of you have the weird idea that it is unnecessary to be polite in the course of a business transaction.
posted by kyrademon at 1:11 AM on May 24, 2016 [56 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 1:11 AM on May 24, 2016 [56 favorites]
Acceptable: "Gimme a _______".
Polite: "Lemme get a ________".
posted by BinGregory at 1:22 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Polite: "Lemme get a ________".
posted by BinGregory at 1:22 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am unsettled that some of you have the weird idea that it is unnecessary to be polite in the course of a business transaction.
Isn't that kind of the point though? What if, say, I think it's impolite to say please because it implies that the requester is requesting something of greater value than he is willing to give in exchange?
posted by merlynkline at 1:36 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Isn't that kind of the point though? What if, say, I think it's impolite to say please because it implies that the requester is requesting something of greater value than he is willing to give in exchange?
posted by merlynkline at 1:36 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Isn't that kind of the point though? What if, say, I think it's impolite to say please because it implies that the requester is requesting something of greater value than he is willing to give in exchange?
I mean, if you only ever deal with business owners that logic might hold, but it so doesn't with any retail employee (read: anyone you might ever actually have a retail transaction with). They aren't seeing the profits of the sale. Their wage gets paid whether or not you come in and ask them to make a latte or ring up your top or whatever. You are absolutely not doing them a favour in any way, even if you could rationalise it thus if they were the shop owner.
posted by Dysk at 1:44 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean, if you only ever deal with business owners that logic might hold, but it so doesn't with any retail employee (read: anyone you might ever actually have a retail transaction with). They aren't seeing the profits of the sale. Their wage gets paid whether or not you come in and ask them to make a latte or ring up your top or whatever. You are absolutely not doing them a favour in any way, even if you could rationalise it thus if they were the shop owner.
posted by Dysk at 1:44 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
Good grief! I say please and thank you all the time in all manner of situations. It's how you interact with people. Or at least, it's how I was taught to interact with people. "Would you like a bag [for that six pack you just purchased]?" "Yes, please."
WTF is wrong with please and thank you even in retail situations? I'm not some 1%er ordering people around who are being paid to do my bidding. I'm a working stiff who is engaging with someone who is also working, and we both know what is means to do a job that is largely unappreciated. A little social grease goes a long way to make everyone's day feel better.
I'm not going to quit doing basic social niceties just because someone on the internet thinks that these things somehow imply something that are entirely not implied by what I am doing. I have yet to encounter anyone who was offended by my use of the words, and I doubt anyone else has ever, either.
posted by hippybear at 2:02 AM on May 24, 2016 [65 favorites]
WTF is wrong with please and thank you even in retail situations? I'm not some 1%er ordering people around who are being paid to do my bidding. I'm a working stiff who is engaging with someone who is also working, and we both know what is means to do a job that is largely unappreciated. A little social grease goes a long way to make everyone's day feel better.
I'm not going to quit doing basic social niceties just because someone on the internet thinks that these things somehow imply something that are entirely not implied by what I am doing. I have yet to encounter anyone who was offended by my use of the words, and I doubt anyone else has ever, either.
posted by hippybear at 2:02 AM on May 24, 2016 [65 favorites]
*of course, if you INTEND for your use of social niceties to imply something else, then the meaning will be obvious. And if anyone has lived a life where the use of social niceties means that their every encounter of those things has deeper implications than the simple social grease that they are, that says WAY more about that person's background and the horrible circumstances in which they were raised than anything about the actual words as they are typically used and meant.
posted by hippybear at 2:06 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:06 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Human "language" is ACUTELY INFECTED with irony and sarcasm, and there is no way we can communicate *politely* any more!!1! That's why I always use emoticons instead - they are totes 'unambiguous' ❤️ 💛 💙 💜 💔 ❣️ 💕 💞 💓 💗 💖 💘 💝
posted by the quidnunc kid at 2:36 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by the quidnunc kid at 2:36 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
As a Brit who has spent a reasonable amount of time in the US this makes a lot of sense to me. I will struggle to say please and thank you less next time I'm stateside.
One oddity I have noticed is that on the London (tube) it just says something like "please leave this seat free for the disabled" (etc). On US (BART) it states the federal law which mandates you should leave this seat free for the disabled. This chimes with the idea of a more hierarchical social structure and a stronger idea of having your place or having to do certain things just because.
Oh and my favourite minor (weird) US/UK cultural difference: the layout of crossword puzzles.
posted by Erberus at 2:43 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
One oddity I have noticed is that on the London (tube) it just says something like "please leave this seat free for the disabled" (etc). On US (BART) it states the federal law which mandates you should leave this seat free for the disabled. This chimes with the idea of a more hierarchical social structure and a stronger idea of having your place or having to do certain things just because.
Oh and my favourite minor (weird) US/UK cultural difference: the layout of crossword puzzles.
posted by Erberus at 2:43 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
the layout of crossword puzzles
Yes, and one can't help but feel that, in the United States, the words are just somehow more cross.
#whatwouldRupertGilessay
#I'm(re)watchingBuffyseason3,Idon'tknowwhy
#amIusinghashtagscorrectly?You'dtellmeifIwasn't,right?
posted by the quidnunc kid at 2:50 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, and one can't help but feel that, in the United States, the words are just somehow more cross.
#whatwouldRupertGilessay
#I'm(re)watchingBuffyseason3,Idon'tknowwhy
#amIusinghashtagscorrectly?You'dtellmeifIwasn't,right?
posted by the quidnunc kid at 2:50 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Huh, I never noticed this about "please" but I think I see what she means. "Can you get that to me by Thursday?" sounds like a normal request, but "can you please get that to me by Thursday?" all of a sudden takes it to a place of "I am intentionally reminding you that you are my subordinate, because you appear to have forgotten."
posted by en forme de poire at 2:59 AM on May 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 2:59 AM on May 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
May we wish you a pleasant flight
Isn't that just the polite subjunctive, ie just a more formally courteous way of saying 'we wish you a pleasant flight'?
People certainly don't get that these days. When I say "Could I have the club sandwich, please?" young people typically reply:
"Yes, of course you can,"
as though it were a question. If I didn't include the 'please' I think most would genuinely not understand that it was a request rather than an enquiry.
posted by Segundus at 3:10 AM on May 24, 2016
Isn't that just the polite subjunctive, ie just a more formally courteous way of saying 'we wish you a pleasant flight'?
People certainly don't get that these days. When I say "Could I have the club sandwich, please?" young people typically reply:
"Yes, of course you can,"
as though it were a question. If I didn't include the 'please' I think most would genuinely not understand that it was a request rather than an enquiry.
posted by Segundus at 3:10 AM on May 24, 2016
When I say "Could I have the club sandwich, please?" young people typically reply:
"Yes, of course you can,"
as though it were a question. If I didn't include the 'please' I think most would genuinely not understand that it was a request rather than an enquiry.
But I don't see how request vs enquiry makes the response any different. What would you expect people to reply?
(ooh ooh is this also where I can bring up the Australian use of "that's okay" instead of "you're welcome" when I thank them? Two years here and it still throws me for a loop. Makes me feel so weird and like I've thanked them for something inappropriate.)
posted by olinerd at 3:23 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Yes, of course you can,"
as though it were a question. If I didn't include the 'please' I think most would genuinely not understand that it was a request rather than an enquiry.
But I don't see how request vs enquiry makes the response any different. What would you expect people to reply?
(ooh ooh is this also where I can bring up the Australian use of "that's okay" instead of "you're welcome" when I thank them? Two years here and it still throws me for a loop. Makes me feel so weird and like I've thanked them for something inappropriate.)
posted by olinerd at 3:23 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Saying "please" to a server definitely sounds impatient and high-handed to this American. I can't even figure out how to fit it into a sentence where it doesn't sound obnoxious.
posted by octothorpe at 3:26 AM on May 24, 2016
posted by octothorpe at 3:26 AM on May 24, 2016
On social niceties, during my few visits to the States, I get scared when I'm asked 'how are you today?' by the person behind the counter, because it straddles that fine line of actual individual inquisition or something required by upper management.
Then I land back home and the server is pissing and moaning about the weather ("It's far too nice to be stuck inside" or "It's miserable out there") and I feel far more relaxed.
posted by bumcivilian at 3:35 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Then I land back home and the server is pissing and moaning about the weather ("It's far too nice to be stuck inside" or "It's miserable out there") and I feel far more relaxed.
posted by bumcivilian at 3:35 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are strong regional differences in the USA, too. In New Orleans you won't get very far unless you prefix your request with an inquiry about the server's health, a comment on the weather, a compliment on the establishment and/or the goods on offer, and a politely-phrased suggestion in the subjunctive mode that your mind would be set at ease if you only had a few of those things, over there. Or so my relatives tell me.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:39 AM on May 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:39 AM on May 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
May I say something? ... I'm a 57 y. o. female who has lived all of my life in the southern US. It is ingrained in me to say please and thank you in almost all social interactions. And I appreciate knowing that I am now offending people but this is news to me and I apologize for not being able to discard years of ingrained habit. I will have to rethink written communications before sending in the future.
This signifies to me that I am truly "old" so I shall go out and start replacing my wardrobe with unambiguous elastic waisted polyester slacks and matching polyester tops so folks will understand that I'm simply being polite in an endearing, dottering old lady mode. Part of what's important is the social construct of interpersonal interactions and I will make sure my wardrobe clearly conveys my meaning.
Of course, I could always use the article as a guide for places to visit that will fit my habitual patterns of speaking. Now, that sounds more enjoyable except for the problem with my southern accent.
posted by mightshould at 3:44 AM on May 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
This signifies to me that I am truly "old" so I shall go out and start replacing my wardrobe with unambiguous elastic waisted polyester slacks and matching polyester tops so folks will understand that I'm simply being polite in an endearing, dottering old lady mode. Part of what's important is the social construct of interpersonal interactions and I will make sure my wardrobe clearly conveys my meaning.
Of course, I could always use the article as a guide for places to visit that will fit my habitual patterns of speaking. Now, that sounds more enjoyable except for the problem with my southern accent.
posted by mightshould at 3:44 AM on May 24, 2016 [18 favorites]
"Can you get that to me by Thursday?" sounds like a normal request, but "can you please get that to me by Thursday?" all of a sudden takes it to a place of "I am intentionally reminding you that you are my subordinate, because you appear to have forgotten."
There's a similar example in the end of the third link, but using the passive voice ("could the online version be updated to this?" versus "could the online person be updated to this please?") Most questions posed in work emails, in my experience, are phrased in a "is this possible?" sense, which leaves the recepient room to say no or propose an alternative. Adding "please" turns "is this a thing that can be done?" to "this is a thing I expect you to do."
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:47 AM on May 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
There's a similar example in the end of the third link, but using the passive voice ("could the online version be updated to this?" versus "could the online person be updated to this please?") Most questions posed in work emails, in my experience, are phrased in a "is this possible?" sense, which leaves the recepient room to say no or propose an alternative. Adding "please" turns "is this a thing that can be done?" to "this is a thing I expect you to do."
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:47 AM on May 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
This thread and the linked post/video have been very illuminating. I'm Canadian, and to me, the omission of "please" from a polite request seems very rude. I notice its omission, the way that the blog writer's British friends notice it. For me, using "please" in a work request or when ordering food does not carry any of the negative connotations some Americans have mentioned in this thread, or in the comments on the SBACL blog. I'm truly surprised by the difference in perception!
It's a good reminder for me that although Americans seem so similar to us, there are many (unconscious, unspoken) politeness rules that can't be taken for granted as the same.
(As an aside--I'm currently travelling in France and trying to navigate differences in cultural politeness, but in a second language, which is even more tricky. I've been here before and I do know some of the less obvious politeness rules; I also know that it's clear I'm a foreigner who is trying my best to be polite, and thus I'm afforded a certain amount of latitude. But still, I have a horror of this sort of miscommunication and it's a bit stressful.)
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 4:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's a good reminder for me that although Americans seem so similar to us, there are many (unconscious, unspoken) politeness rules that can't be taken for granted as the same.
(As an aside--I'm currently travelling in France and trying to navigate differences in cultural politeness, but in a second language, which is even more tricky. I've been here before and I do know some of the less obvious politeness rules; I also know that it's clear I'm a foreigner who is trying my best to be polite, and thus I'm afforded a certain amount of latitude. But still, I have a horror of this sort of miscommunication and it's a bit stressful.)
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 4:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
41 yr old female of Canadian origins, but I've lived in the U.S. almost all my life and I say please and thank you (or thanks) whether it's a business transaction our not. The bit that determines whether I use please in ordering is how the server approaches me. If they ask a question such as, "What can I get you?" then I don't use please because that seems like answering a question with a question. I do say thank you at the end of my order and all further, unsolicited requests get a please. "Could you please bring me a straw when you get a chance? Thank you." "Excuse me, could you please help me get that box down off that top shelf?" Etc. Retail workers are people, talking to them differently than I'd talk to anyone else seems incredibly rude.
I also use "please find attached" because that is just standard boilerplate business English.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:16 AM on May 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
I also use "please find attached" because that is just standard boilerplate business English.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:16 AM on May 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
So what I'm reading here is that there is zero consensus among Americans about how to politely order food, and that no matter what you do some people are going to thing you're being some combination of brusque, presumptuous, condescending, overly familiar, and generally rude. Great—something else to be anxious about. And I thought I had the whole being-good-to-waitstaff thing down pat.
Fuck it. I'll just keep doing what I've always done and if people take my "please" as some kind of veiled passive-aggressive insult then that's on them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:22 AM on May 24, 2016 [23 favorites]
Fuck it. I'll just keep doing what I've always done and if people take my "please" as some kind of veiled passive-aggressive insult then that's on them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:22 AM on May 24, 2016 [23 favorites]
I was raised partly in Canada and partly in North Carolina and now live in New York, which is a pretty long and terrifying crash course in subtle norms of politeness. Lately I have been HORRIFIED to hear "I'll have a chai latte, please" creeping into my usual "I'd like a chai latte please" and "Could I please have a chai latte?" -- and I would be so embarrassed to omit the "please" that if I'm ordering something especially long, I'll end up saying, "Could I please have one chai latte, one blueberry muffin, and a vanilla frappuccino, please?" not on purpose but out of that tiny fear in the back of my head that I might not have said "please" already.
On the other hand, I almost never use "please" with coworkers -- certainly not with an imperative, though I might say something like "In the future, can you please give me a little more advance notice if I need to fill in for your storytime?" -- although even there, now I'm thinking "Probably not unless I was kind of pissed off, probably it should be "I'd really appreciate it if you could," or something like that." I don't have any coworkers I actually have the authority to speak to in the imperative!
But with patrons I actually use it a lot -- "Let me see your library card, please," or "Please check out your materials, the library is about to close." It feels okay to use the imperative because they do need to do the thing (if I don't see their library card, I can't tell them what the problem is) but it feels terribly rude to just say "Check out your materials" without the "please."
(Please note that I have both social anxiety and a degree in linguistics. I am likely to overthink almost any social interaction.)
posted by Jeanne at 4:25 AM on May 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
On the other hand, I almost never use "please" with coworkers -- certainly not with an imperative, though I might say something like "In the future, can you please give me a little more advance notice if I need to fill in for your storytime?" -- although even there, now I'm thinking "Probably not unless I was kind of pissed off, probably it should be "I'd really appreciate it if you could," or something like that." I don't have any coworkers I actually have the authority to speak to in the imperative!
But with patrons I actually use it a lot -- "Let me see your library card, please," or "Please check out your materials, the library is about to close." It feels okay to use the imperative because they do need to do the thing (if I don't see their library card, I can't tell them what the problem is) but it feels terribly rude to just say "Check out your materials" without the "please."
(Please note that I have both social anxiety and a degree in linguistics. I am likely to overthink almost any social interaction.)
posted by Jeanne at 4:25 AM on May 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
(I had to think about this quite hard, but I realise that - as a native UK English speaker - I rarely say 'please' in a restaurant, and am much more likely to go with a combo that ends in 'thank you' or 'thanks' - often as I'm handing back the menus or confirming 'yes that's everything, thanks'.)
posted by AFII at 4:45 AM on May 24, 2016
posted by AFII at 4:45 AM on May 24, 2016
Another thing I noticed is people who say "I'll do the [grilled cheese]"... when ordering which I usually find really obnoxious but now I guess in this light makes sense. But to me I'm like "You are not doing anything, you're asking for something. Use the right verbs, people!"
I'd always assumed, without having thought about it a whole lot, that "I'll do the cheeseburger" was connected, linguistically, to the bro-tastic use of "I'd do her" -- a use of the verb "to do" to take full possession and use of a thing (food in this case, rather than a person).
Huh, I never noticed this about "please" but I think I see what she means. "Can you get that to me by Thursday?" sounds like a normal request, but "can you please get that to me by Thursday?" all of a sudden takes it to a place of "I am intentionally reminding you that you are my subordinate, because you appear to have forgotten."
I find myself editing "please" out of emails to colleagues, particularly when it is a request to someone at my same level, where there is no hierarchical relationship so I don't have any direct authority. My first draft often reads like a request to a subordinate, but minus the "please" it reads, to my American eyes, much more appropriately.
But at restaurants, bars, and stores, and in other random interactions, I use "please" and "thank you" very liberally to indicate politeness and as a probably ineffective counterweight against the open rudeness I see so many patrons display. I think of it like Hippybear says above, "A little social grease goes a long way to make everyone's day feel better."
And at work, I try to always acknowledge when someone does something for me with a "thank you" or equivalent, though there again, as with "please," there are nuances about hierarchy that can show up in unwelcome ways.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:55 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd always assumed, without having thought about it a whole lot, that "I'll do the cheeseburger" was connected, linguistically, to the bro-tastic use of "I'd do her" -- a use of the verb "to do" to take full possession and use of a thing (food in this case, rather than a person).
Huh, I never noticed this about "please" but I think I see what she means. "Can you get that to me by Thursday?" sounds like a normal request, but "can you please get that to me by Thursday?" all of a sudden takes it to a place of "I am intentionally reminding you that you are my subordinate, because you appear to have forgotten."
I find myself editing "please" out of emails to colleagues, particularly when it is a request to someone at my same level, where there is no hierarchical relationship so I don't have any direct authority. My first draft often reads like a request to a subordinate, but minus the "please" it reads, to my American eyes, much more appropriately.
But at restaurants, bars, and stores, and in other random interactions, I use "please" and "thank you" very liberally to indicate politeness and as a probably ineffective counterweight against the open rudeness I see so many patrons display. I think of it like Hippybear says above, "A little social grease goes a long way to make everyone's day feel better."
And at work, I try to always acknowledge when someone does something for me with a "thank you" or equivalent, though there again, as with "please," there are nuances about hierarchy that can show up in unwelcome ways.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:55 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
On US (BART) it states the federal law which mandates you should leave this seat free for the disabled.
NYC subways use "would you please" for this language. Which is funny, because we used to make fun of this, because it sounded imploring and condescending. "WOULD YOU PLEASE? COULD YOU FIND IT IN YOUR HEART?"
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:58 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
NYC subways use "would you please" for this language. Which is funny, because we used to make fun of this, because it sounded imploring and condescending. "WOULD YOU PLEASE? COULD YOU FIND IT IN YOUR HEART?"
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:58 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Glad to see this here. I regularly listen to The Allusionist, hosted by Helen Zaltzman, who is a sibling of Andy Zaltzman of The Bugle. In my imagination, hanging out with Helen and Andy Zaltzman for an hour or two would be the best thing ever.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:12 AM on May 24, 2016
posted by krinklyfig at 5:12 AM on May 24, 2016
As a Brit, I can't not say please and thank you - often several times - in the course of every retail transaction. The behaviour's so ingrained in me now, I don't think I could change it if I wanted to. But now I'm worried about how many American servers I've inadvertently offended through this habit when visiting the US.
Here's another conundrum. When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
a) "Good."
b) "Good, thanks."
c) "Good, thanks. How about you?"
posted by Paul Slade at 5:34 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's another conundrum. When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
a) "Good."
b) "Good, thanks."
c) "Good, thanks. How about you?"
posted by Paul Slade at 5:34 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
What would you expect people to reply?
I'm not expecting them to reply, I'm expecting them to get me the sandwich. When people say to you:
"May all your troubles be little ones."
...do you reply:
"I suppose they may, or they may not - but why are you asking me?"
posted by Segundus at 5:35 AM on May 24, 2016
I'm not expecting them to reply, I'm expecting them to get me the sandwich. When people say to you:
"May all your troubles be little ones."
...do you reply:
"I suppose they may, or they may not - but why are you asking me?"
posted by Segundus at 5:35 AM on May 24, 2016
the verb "to do" to take full possession and use of a thing (food in this case, rather than a person).
Around (pub) closing time, after downing a few beers, in my hometown in the UK, blokes have been saying to themselves and anyone else within listening distance, for 50 years or more: "I could do a (takeaway) curry".
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:36 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Around (pub) closing time, after downing a few beers, in my hometown in the UK, blokes have been saying to themselves and anyone else within listening distance, for 50 years or more: "I could do a (takeaway) curry".
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:36 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
d) Compared to what?
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:38 AM on May 24, 2016
d) Compared to what?
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:38 AM on May 24, 2016
I was thinking about this recently (although much less articulately than this excellent post) when my 9 year old asked for something, and didn't say please. So I said, "hey, you should say please," and he responded with "ok, then can I PUH-LEASE have a chocolate donut," and as I started to tell him that was even worse I realized that there was no way. You have to be able to sneak that please in there without anyone noticing, because the slightest emphasis turns it into a dig.
I guess Americans, myself included, are irreducibly, willfully rude but we somehow know we don't mean it. So there's this arms race of new ways to phrase things - "I'll do the chocolate donut" - which works on us until our linguistic immune system builds up an immunity and then interprets as rudeness.
posted by dirtdirt at 5:43 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I guess Americans, myself included, are irreducibly, willfully rude but we somehow know we don't mean it. So there's this arms race of new ways to phrase things - "I'll do the chocolate donut" - which works on us until our linguistic immune system builds up an immunity and then interprets as rudeness.
posted by dirtdirt at 5:43 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
... zero consensus among Americans ...
Despite being one country, the US is made up of nearly 320 million people across a geographic area significantly larger than continental Europe. I don't think anyone would expect there to be consensus between the peoples of France, Germany, Spain, England, Italy, etc, on something like this, so I don't know why it's so surprising to anyone that there's regional variation within the US. Even with a shared national identity, it's a big goddamn place with a lot of people and distinct sub-cultures.
posted by tocts at 5:43 AM on May 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Despite being one country, the US is made up of nearly 320 million people across a geographic area significantly larger than continental Europe. I don't think anyone would expect there to be consensus between the peoples of France, Germany, Spain, England, Italy, etc, on something like this, so I don't know why it's so surprising to anyone that there's regional variation within the US. Even with a shared national identity, it's a big goddamn place with a lot of people and distinct sub-cultures.
posted by tocts at 5:43 AM on May 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
In my experience the proper response to "how are you?" is to ask "how are you?" in return, with neither party actually answering the question.
posted by deadwax at 6:05 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
In my experience the proper response to "how are you?" is to ask "how are you?" in return, with neither party actually answering the question.
posted by deadwax at 6:05 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Can you get that to me by Thursday?" sounds like a normal request, but "can you please get that to me by Thursday?" all of a sudden takes it to a place of "I am intentionally reminding you that you are my subordinate, because you appear to have forgotten."
"Can you please get that to be by Thursday?" sounds a lot worse than "can you get that to me by Thursday please?" though.
posted by Dysk at 6:24 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Can you please get that to be by Thursday?" sounds a lot worse than "can you get that to me by Thursday please?" though.
posted by Dysk at 6:24 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Now I am full of anxiety because I thought I was being polite in my customer service emails.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:28 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 6:28 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm relieved that there are a lot of folks here that continue to use please and thank you regardless of the situation. I was becoming very anxious as well, that I was inadvertently offending people with my attempts to be nice.
Actually, I think I say please and thank you a bit too much - I do think it is possible to make someone uncomfortable with too much politeness. But if that's my worst crime, I think I'm doing OK (for the record, though it's not my worst crime).
What I do which really throws people off is asking them "how are you?", especially to phone agents. 50% will respond with a "fine, how are you?" or something equivalent. The other 50% will just sit there in stunned silence. And i have to admit it gets a little awkward, with me waiting for an answer, and them just sitting there, with all this dead silence on the phone line.
But my rationale is just to spread some joy to everyone with whom I interact, and I guess people are just not used to it or expecting it or don't want it from me, and I need to accept and respect it!
posted by bitteroldman at 6:29 AM on May 24, 2016
Actually, I think I say please and thank you a bit too much - I do think it is possible to make someone uncomfortable with too much politeness. But if that's my worst crime, I think I'm doing OK (for the record, though it's not my worst crime).
What I do which really throws people off is asking them "how are you?", especially to phone agents. 50% will respond with a "fine, how are you?" or something equivalent. The other 50% will just sit there in stunned silence. And i have to admit it gets a little awkward, with me waiting for an answer, and them just sitting there, with all this dead silence on the phone line.
But my rationale is just to spread some joy to everyone with whom I interact, and I guess people are just not used to it or expecting it or don't want it from me, and I need to accept and respect it!
posted by bitteroldman at 6:29 AM on May 24, 2016
a geographic area significantly larger than continental Europe
I don't think the use of "significant" and "larger" varies enough regionally to make 9,857,306 km² significantly larger than 10,180,000 km² anywhere, though :-)
posted by effbot at 6:30 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't think the use of "significant" and "larger" varies enough regionally to make 9,857,306 km² significantly larger than 10,180,000 km² anywhere, though :-)
posted by effbot at 6:30 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also, the 'Cincinatti please'!
*ahem*
Cincinnati.
Please.
posted by cooker girl at 6:34 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
*ahem*
Cincinnati.
Please.
posted by cooker girl at 6:34 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
d) "Could you please get back to work?"
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:37 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
d) "Could you please get back to work?"
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:37 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
I usually go with some platitude like "It's going all right" or "not bad" and use my tone of voice to convey how I'm really doing and/or suggest how I would prefer the conversation to go - and for how long, heh.
posted by STFUDonnie at 6:45 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I usually go with some platitude like "It's going all right" or "not bad" and use my tone of voice to convey how I'm really doing and/or suggest how I would prefer the conversation to go - and for how long, heh.
posted by STFUDonnie at 6:45 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I´m Spanish, living in Australia with an Australian wife. She has to keep reminding me that, while in Spain posing a request as a question is already a polite form, in Australia you still have to add "please".
According to Mrs Kandinski, "can you pass me the salt?" is less polite than "please, pass me the salt". In Spanish (at least in Spain) it's the reverse, because of the direct request (literally an imperative).
So I average it out, and I always say "could you please pass the salt?".
I too get that "please" can be oppresive. Like it's a demand, not a request. I'm interested in what other ESL speakers have to say.
posted by kandinski at 6:47 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
According to Mrs Kandinski, "can you pass me the salt?" is less polite than "please, pass me the salt". In Spanish (at least in Spain) it's the reverse, because of the direct request (literally an imperative).
So I average it out, and I always say "could you please pass the salt?".
I too get that "please" can be oppresive. Like it's a demand, not a request. I'm interested in what other ESL speakers have to say.
posted by kandinski at 6:47 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
"no matter what you do some people are going to thing you're being some combination of brusque, presumptuous, condescending, overly familiar, and generally rude. "
Pretty much. I never knew how horrendously offensive I was as a human being to literally everyone I met until I started doing public service at work.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:48 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pretty much. I never knew how horrendously offensive I was as a human being to literally everyone I met until I started doing public service at work.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:48 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
This signifies to me that I am truly "old" so I shall go out and start replacing my wardrobe with unambiguous elastic waisted polyester slacks and matching polyester tops so folks will understand that I'm simply being polite in an endearing, dottering old lady mode.
Probably easier just to call everyone in creation "hon."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:07 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Probably easier just to call everyone in creation "hon."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:07 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am unsettled that some of you have the weird idea that it is unnecessary to be polite in the course of a business transaction.
But, as an American, that’s not what anyone is saying. At all. They are just saying that the codes of politeness/kindness are different in a lot of American contexts. And a lot of Americans experience “please” as a form of rudeness/snideness in certain settings.
I’ve worked in retail/food service, and someone saying “I’ll have a Diet Coke” without adding a please is not necessarily rude. If the person is smiling, and they hand back the menu so that I can hold it easily, and they don’t refuse to make eye contact, then all of those non-verbal cues are the “please”.
I also think some of it is the whole “America is full of temporarily embarrassed millionaires thing”. If the customer doesn’t say please, it somehow lets you both pretend that you (the employee) are there voluntarily, rather than as a wage slave? I can’t really say why, but that’s the sense I get. I’m not saying it is logical, but cultural codes rarely are.
(Also, I have a friend from the middle east who sometimes ends texts with “[asks for favor] please???” and it is an act of love and will that I do not take these messages personally, because I know he means them to be polite and friendly. But they are SO OFFENSIVE at first glance. It isn’t just the please. It’s the three question marks. In my cultural context, ending a request with “please???” means “why haven’t you done this yet? how could you be so thoughtless? I shouldn’t even have to ask this? you are embarrassing yourself?” I know that he literally intends none of those messages, but I still have to work to get over my instinctive response of hurt feelings. HA HA LANGUAGE, YOU GOOFBALL.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:19 AM on May 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
But, as an American, that’s not what anyone is saying. At all. They are just saying that the codes of politeness/kindness are different in a lot of American contexts. And a lot of Americans experience “please” as a form of rudeness/snideness in certain settings.
I’ve worked in retail/food service, and someone saying “I’ll have a Diet Coke” without adding a please is not necessarily rude. If the person is smiling, and they hand back the menu so that I can hold it easily, and they don’t refuse to make eye contact, then all of those non-verbal cues are the “please”.
I also think some of it is the whole “America is full of temporarily embarrassed millionaires thing”. If the customer doesn’t say please, it somehow lets you both pretend that you (the employee) are there voluntarily, rather than as a wage slave? I can’t really say why, but that’s the sense I get. I’m not saying it is logical, but cultural codes rarely are.
(Also, I have a friend from the middle east who sometimes ends texts with “[asks for favor] please???” and it is an act of love and will that I do not take these messages personally, because I know he means them to be polite and friendly. But they are SO OFFENSIVE at first glance. It isn’t just the please. It’s the three question marks. In my cultural context, ending a request with “please???” means “why haven’t you done this yet? how could you be so thoughtless? I shouldn’t even have to ask this? you are embarrassing yourself?” I know that he literally intends none of those messages, but I still have to work to get over my instinctive response of hurt feelings. HA HA LANGUAGE, YOU GOOFBALL.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:19 AM on May 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'd always assumed, without having thought about it a whole lot, that "I'll do the cheeseburger" was connected, linguistically, to the bro-tastic use of "I'd do her" -- a use of the verb "to do" to take full possession and use of a thing (food in this case, rather than a person).
I have been hearing "to do" becoming an all-purpose verb more and more in the last few years. Two weeks ago I was in a games cafe at a table next to two teenagers playing Battleship and each move was prefaced the same way: "Let's do E-4," "Let's do G-7," etc. Maybe the ants in The Once And Future King were onto something.
I listened to the Allusionist episode a couple of weeks back when it first came out and have been reflecting on my use/lack of use of "please" ever since. (Fortysomething male Canadian here, fwiw.) While I do not always employ it in ordering restaurant food in the most basic sense, I distribute it lavishly onto supplemental requests: when the waitron asks me what I will have, I would say something like, "Yes, I would like* the perch dinner," with possibly a "please" at the end of the sentence. Any further questions like would I like the soup or salad -- "Salad, please." What sort of dressing? "French, please." All this is followed by a thank you when the order is concluded.
*I realized years ago that the standard formulation of "CanIgeta" to order seemed a little too peremptory to my tastes, so I softened it. An Anglo schoolmate of mine went to post-secondary in Montreal and when I visited him in his second year, I suggested that his rudimentary French -- leading orders with "je veux" ("I want") might be better finessed to "je voudrais" ("I would like.") Now, of course, I realize that it is not all that simple.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:40 AM on May 24, 2016
I have been hearing "to do" becoming an all-purpose verb more and more in the last few years. Two weeks ago I was in a games cafe at a table next to two teenagers playing Battleship and each move was prefaced the same way: "Let's do E-4," "Let's do G-7," etc. Maybe the ants in The Once And Future King were onto something.
I listened to the Allusionist episode a couple of weeks back when it first came out and have been reflecting on my use/lack of use of "please" ever since. (Fortysomething male Canadian here, fwiw.) While I do not always employ it in ordering restaurant food in the most basic sense, I distribute it lavishly onto supplemental requests: when the waitron asks me what I will have, I would say something like, "Yes, I would like* the perch dinner," with possibly a "please" at the end of the sentence. Any further questions like would I like the soup or salad -- "Salad, please." What sort of dressing? "French, please." All this is followed by a thank you when the order is concluded.
*I realized years ago that the standard formulation of "CanIgeta" to order seemed a little too peremptory to my tastes, so I softened it. An Anglo schoolmate of mine went to post-secondary in Montreal and when I visited him in his second year, I suggested that his rudimentary French -- leading orders with "je veux" ("I want") might be better finessed to "je voudrais" ("I would like.") Now, of course, I realize that it is not all that simple.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:40 AM on May 24, 2016
Another Southerner here raised to say Please for almost any request. I freak out if I'm ordering food and I forget to add a please in there, as I feel I'm being disrespectful to the server.
...
It's like I'm discovering for the first time that I've failed for years at assimilating with my fellow Americans.....and I still will use please. Mamma said so.
posted by Atreides at 7:51 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
...
It's like I'm discovering for the first time that I've failed for years at assimilating with my fellow Americans.....and I still will use please. Mamma said so.
posted by Atreides at 7:51 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Saying "please" to a server definitely sounds impatient and high-handed to this American. I can't even figure out how to fit it into a sentence where it doesn't sound obnoxious.
Really? I get the possible negative overtones of many of the business examples given above (and then there's my favorite, "If you would do [x], that would be great," which means WHY THE LIVING F HAVEN'T YOU DONE X YET), but this sounds rude to you?
"What can I get you?"
"Two eggs, sunny side up, with English muffin, please."
That's certainly not the exclusive way of answering the question politely, but unless you heavily stress the "please" to the point that it becomes sarcastic, I can't wrap my head around how it's rude.
posted by praemunire at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
Really? I get the possible negative overtones of many of the business examples given above (and then there's my favorite, "If you would do [x], that would be great," which means WHY THE LIVING F HAVEN'T YOU DONE X YET), but this sounds rude to you?
"What can I get you?"
"Two eggs, sunny side up, with English muffin, please."
That's certainly not the exclusive way of answering the question politely, but unless you heavily stress the "please" to the point that it becomes sarcastic, I can't wrap my head around how it's rude.
posted by praemunire at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
Guys calm down this is descriptivist not prescriptivist.
Please accept my most abject apologies regarding the misspelling of Cincinnati.
posted by bq at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Please accept my most abject apologies regarding the misspelling of Cincinnati.
posted by bq at 8:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Excuse me", when you need someone to let you through, is kind of an opposite case.
Americans always do it, even when they are just going to walk close to someone. The British avoid saying it unless it's actually necessary and would rather just wait a second for the person to notice them and move. It's because in the US the "excuse me" is kind of "sorry for invading your personal space" and in the UK it's got a hint of "get out of my way, can't you see I need to come through?".
posted by w0mbat at 8:19 AM on May 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Americans always do it, even when they are just going to walk close to someone. The British avoid saying it unless it's actually necessary and would rather just wait a second for the person to notice them and move. It's because in the US the "excuse me" is kind of "sorry for invading your personal space" and in the UK it's got a hint of "get out of my way, can't you see I need to come through?".
posted by w0mbat at 8:19 AM on May 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Two eggs, sunny side up, with English muffin, please."
I keep saying that in my head and if you don't inflect it, you sound gruff and short but if you do inflect it, you sound sort of whiny and obsequious.
posted by octothorpe at 8:29 AM on May 24, 2016
I keep saying that in my head and if you don't inflect it, you sound gruff and short but if you do inflect it, you sound sort of whiny and obsequious.
posted by octothorpe at 8:29 AM on May 24, 2016
Hm. Try saying "please" warmly, kind of low and slow and with a smile in your voice. Does that help?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:55 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:55 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hm. Try saying "please" warmly, kind of low and slow and with a smile in your voice. Does that help?
Now it sounds like sexual harassment. I'm not being sarcastic, here. But some of the creepiest customers I ever had were the ones who used "please" like a weapon, a way to force intimacy.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:02 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Now it sounds like sexual harassment. I'm not being sarcastic, here. But some of the creepiest customers I ever had were the ones who used "please" like a weapon, a way to force intimacy.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:02 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was once customer of the week at my corner coffee shop in San Francisco "for being so polite." All I would do is say, "could I please have a tea" and "thank you" when they gave it to me. I was a little sad that what I consider to be basic politeness was remarkable.
I also thank the cashier and checker at the grocery store and I make sure to say "thanks" to one and "thank you" to the other.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:04 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I also thank the cashier and checker at the grocery store and I make sure to say "thanks" to one and "thank you" to the other.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:04 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't wrap my head around how it's rude.
This could just be a cold northeasterner thing, but for me, there's lots of ways. This is an interaction with someone who has already expressed their intent to do a thing for you. Adding "please" to whatever you ask for in response comes off as if you think they aren't actually going to do it unless you demand it, or that you're exasperated that they haven't already done it, or that you're a small child or you're treating them like a small child.
"I'll have a glass of water, thanks." is totally fine. "I'll have a glass of water, please" has 3-4 ways to read it as hostile/condescending/etc.
posted by tocts at 9:06 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
This could just be a cold northeasterner thing, but for me, there's lots of ways. This is an interaction with someone who has already expressed their intent to do a thing for you. Adding "please" to whatever you ask for in response comes off as if you think they aren't actually going to do it unless you demand it, or that you're exasperated that they haven't already done it, or that you're a small child or you're treating them like a small child.
"I'll have a glass of water, thanks." is totally fine. "I'll have a glass of water, please" has 3-4 ways to read it as hostile/condescending/etc.
posted by tocts at 9:06 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm from both Deep South and Texas, and Please and Thank You are things that just done. To not say them would be considered a glaring lack of understanding of the social niceties that keep us all from killing one another in all this heat.
Example interaction at local coffee shop/general store on Main Street between locals would go:
Customer enters building, everyone inside says either, hi howdy, howdo, or welcome. Customer responds with something like, "good, how's y'all?" as appropriate. Orders by, "May I have a cappuccino, please?", to which the response is either, "you surely may," or "oh, we are fresh out, can I get you a tea instead?" When beverage/snack is delivered, server will say Here ya go, can I get anything else for you, to which you respond, nope, this perfect, thanks.
But then, we also say ma'am and sir as part of ingrained speech, and that seems to make some people just crazy with anger. Speed patterns and dialects are weird, but I for one believe that one cannot go wrong by being polite.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:07 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Example interaction at local coffee shop/general store on Main Street between locals would go:
Customer enters building, everyone inside says either, hi howdy, howdo, or welcome. Customer responds with something like, "good, how's y'all?" as appropriate. Orders by, "May I have a cappuccino, please?", to which the response is either, "you surely may," or "oh, we are fresh out, can I get you a tea instead?" When beverage/snack is delivered, server will say Here ya go, can I get anything else for you, to which you respond, nope, this perfect, thanks.
But then, we also say ma'am and sir as part of ingrained speech, and that seems to make some people just crazy with anger. Speed patterns and dialects are weird, but I for one believe that one cannot go wrong by being polite.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:07 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
So, all you "no 'please', this is a business transaction!" folk - do you say "thank you" when they deliver the food you ordered?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:08 AM on May 24, 2016
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:08 AM on May 24, 2016
"I'll do the chocolate donut"
You... uh... I mean whatever floats your boat, but I'm not sure that's relevant to this thread.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:13 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
You... uh... I mean whatever floats your boat, but I'm not sure that's relevant to this thread.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:13 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
I grew up in the south, and file me as well in the category of "'please' and 'thank you' are simply things that are done". I've tried to remember exchanges I've had in restaurants in the past, and I think I'll usually say please when asked "What would you like today?", but not 100% of the time -- and I don't feel too bad about it either way, because in this case the server has already expressed an interest (however perfunctory) in performing a service for me. However, I'll pretty much always use please if I'm making an unsolicited request.
When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
Is this a social interaction, or a business one? Everywhere I've lived in the States, at least, there's a fairly well codified superficial social interaction at a cash register or similar environment which includes the exchange of enquiries about each others' well being without expectation of -- or a wish for -- a detailed answer. It's just an extended handshake. For me this usually goes:
"Hi, how are you today?"
"Fine thanks. You?"
"Just fine".
Handshake complete. Let's do our business. If I'm feeling less social it'll just be a "fine thanks", and I don't think anyone would be offended, I just feel rude myself if I don't reciprocate. If it's more of a social encounter, the reciprocation always comes, followed by a potential conversation prompt if I'm feeling chatty.
posted by jammer at 9:15 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
When an American greets me with the phrase "How's it going?", what is my correct response?
Is this a social interaction, or a business one? Everywhere I've lived in the States, at least, there's a fairly well codified superficial social interaction at a cash register or similar environment which includes the exchange of enquiries about each others' well being without expectation of -- or a wish for -- a detailed answer. It's just an extended handshake. For me this usually goes:
"Hi, how are you today?"
"Fine thanks. You?"
"Just fine".
Handshake complete. Let's do our business. If I'm feeling less social it'll just be a "fine thanks", and I don't think anyone would be offended, I just feel rude myself if I don't reciprocate. If it's more of a social encounter, the reciprocation always comes, followed by a potential conversation prompt if I'm feeling chatty.
posted by jammer at 9:15 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is it a flying do, and is the donut rolling?
posted by hippybear at 9:15 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:15 AM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just barely missed the edit window.
It should be noted that unless I'm with someone I know well on a personal level the answer to "How are you?" is never anything more negative than a non-commital "I'm OK", and usually "Just fine" or "I'm well, thank you". Even amongst, say, casual acquaintances or work colleagues about as far as I'll go to the negative side is something on the scale of "I'm kinda tired today, but OK otherwise."
Only with the closest of friends will I go into detail about my particular physical or mental difficulties of the day.
posted by jammer at 9:23 AM on May 24, 2016
It should be noted that unless I'm with someone I know well on a personal level the answer to "How are you?" is never anything more negative than a non-commital "I'm OK", and usually "Just fine" or "I'm well, thank you". Even amongst, say, casual acquaintances or work colleagues about as far as I'll go to the negative side is something on the scale of "I'm kinda tired today, but OK otherwise."
Only with the closest of friends will I go into detail about my particular physical or mental difficulties of the day.
posted by jammer at 9:23 AM on May 24, 2016
American here. I've got to say, when I worked in customer service type jobs, it rankled me when the occasional customer would say please. I mean, do you really think you have to wheedle and cajole me into doing my damn job? And what if I don't please? Am I going to say no or something?
When ordering food, I only say please if I'm making a special request or if the server has asked me a specific question and I'm just replying with the item, like so:
Server: What can I get you to drink?
Monster: Ice water, please.
But if they're going around the whole table and not specifically asking each person, when they look at me I'll say:
Monster: I'll have ice water.
But thank you is a completely different ballgame. Everyone likes to know their effort is appreciated, whether it's voluntary or not.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:32 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
When ordering food, I only say please if I'm making a special request or if the server has asked me a specific question and I'm just replying with the item, like so:
Server: What can I get you to drink?
Monster: Ice water, please.
But if they're going around the whole table and not specifically asking each person, when they look at me I'll say:
Monster: I'll have ice water.
But thank you is a completely different ballgame. Everyone likes to know their effort is appreciated, whether it's voluntary or not.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:32 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, ice cold northeasterner for life, we are not friends. I do not know you. Pleasantries are given grudgingly and then mocked later and for god sakes don't TOUCH me.
Did Katherine Hepburn ever touch anyone? There you so. Sit up straight and take your cold shower.
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Did Katherine Hepburn ever touch anyone? There you so. Sit up straight and take your cold shower.
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm just going to stick with "Will you do me a kindness?" from here on out.
posted by magstheaxe at 9:40 AM on May 24, 2016
posted by magstheaxe at 9:40 AM on May 24, 2016
I'm mystified by the number of people in this thread who think that “please” must be in the request or else it will seem impolite. I get that it can feel this way if you're not used to it, but I don't think there's any argument for its being necessarily impolite in its context.
As was pointed out in one of the posts, almost every time we (as English speakers in any common dialect) request that someone else do something for us, we don't use the simple imperative, but instead perform an illocutionary act. Instead of saying “bring me coffee” we cloak it in a phrase whose literal meanings are not imperatives — but everybody understands what is meant. When you ask “could i have a cup of coffee,” your server is not going to say “yes” and then wait for you to literally direct him to make it. It's a way of hinting at what you want without presuming a subordinate relationship.
Both BrE and AmE recognize that the bare imperative would be impolite. Both styles of ordering — “could I please have a coffee” in BrE versus “I'll have a coffee” in AmE — are, in their own ways, attempts to be polite. In BrE you could add additional formality or indirectness (those seem to earn you bonus points), whereas in AmE I think the particular phrasing matters much less when judging whether the request, in context, seemed rude. In AmE, I can think of ways to perform “could I have a cup of coffee, please” that would seem earnest and warm and considerate, and I could think of ways to perform it that would seem brusque, arrogant, and passive-aggressive.
There is no “objectively” polite or “objectively” impolite. The only question to be asked is “did the speaker intend for the request to sound respectful?” I can imagine a dialect of English (or any other language) where anything but a bare imperative would be considered impolite on any number of grounds: it requires the listener to do extra work to decode meaning, it wastes time, it presumes a different sort of relationship than actually exists, and so on. (By analogy: tipping is obligatory in restaurant service in the US, half-expected in the UK, and mildly insulting in Japan, and the rationales for each make sense in their respective contexts.) If I spent any time in this fictional place, breaking my ingrained “rules” of politeness would cost me time and headaches, but that wouldn't make the custom itself wrong.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:45 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
As was pointed out in one of the posts, almost every time we (as English speakers in any common dialect) request that someone else do something for us, we don't use the simple imperative, but instead perform an illocutionary act. Instead of saying “bring me coffee” we cloak it in a phrase whose literal meanings are not imperatives — but everybody understands what is meant. When you ask “could i have a cup of coffee,” your server is not going to say “yes” and then wait for you to literally direct him to make it. It's a way of hinting at what you want without presuming a subordinate relationship.
Both BrE and AmE recognize that the bare imperative would be impolite. Both styles of ordering — “could I please have a coffee” in BrE versus “I'll have a coffee” in AmE — are, in their own ways, attempts to be polite. In BrE you could add additional formality or indirectness (those seem to earn you bonus points), whereas in AmE I think the particular phrasing matters much less when judging whether the request, in context, seemed rude. In AmE, I can think of ways to perform “could I have a cup of coffee, please” that would seem earnest and warm and considerate, and I could think of ways to perform it that would seem brusque, arrogant, and passive-aggressive.
There is no “objectively” polite or “objectively” impolite. The only question to be asked is “did the speaker intend for the request to sound respectful?” I can imagine a dialect of English (or any other language) where anything but a bare imperative would be considered impolite on any number of grounds: it requires the listener to do extra work to decode meaning, it wastes time, it presumes a different sort of relationship than actually exists, and so on. (By analogy: tipping is obligatory in restaurant service in the US, half-expected in the UK, and mildly insulting in Japan, and the rationales for each make sense in their respective contexts.) If I spent any time in this fictional place, breaking my ingrained “rules” of politeness would cost me time and headaches, but that wouldn't make the custom itself wrong.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:45 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
There is no “objectively” polite or “objectively” impolite.
Yeah, this is the thing people should be taking away from the various linked discussions. Whenever there's a perception in Culture A that people in Culture B aren't polite, it's almost certainly the case that what's really happening is that there's a mismatch between those cultures in how one performs politeness. Neither are right, they're just not using the same cues. Just because the cues differ, that doesn't mean you should assume that there's a fundamental difference in the intent of people in other cultures to be polite (or not).
posted by tocts at 9:53 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this is the thing people should be taking away from the various linked discussions. Whenever there's a perception in Culture A that people in Culture B aren't polite, it's almost certainly the case that what's really happening is that there's a mismatch between those cultures in how one performs politeness. Neither are right, they're just not using the same cues. Just because the cues differ, that doesn't mean you should assume that there's a fundamental difference in the intent of people in other cultures to be polite (or not).
posted by tocts at 9:53 AM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think this is one of those situations where non-verbal communication is 90% of the total. If I say "I'd like a chicken sandwich, please," tone of voice and body language will tell the waiter whether I'm being sarcastic and expressing annoyance or whether I'm being genuine and expressing friendliness. The actual word "please" is almost more of a verbal punctuation mark than an actual word.
posted by JDHarper at 10:01 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by JDHarper at 10:01 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
This has got to be the most stressful thread I've ever seen. I had no idea I was so out of sync with my culture.
posted by bleep at 10:24 AM on May 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:24 AM on May 24, 2016 [11 favorites]
Canadian living in the American South. I have learned to say sir and ma'am, and the norms growing up for thank you and please are largely the same here, though I've had to learn to add exclamation points in emails so my "Thanks." doesn't sound peremptory.
Canadians use "I'm sorry" in a highly nuanced way that seems similar to me.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:24 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Canadians use "I'm sorry" in a highly nuanced way that seems similar to me.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:24 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Can you please get that to be by Thursday?" sounds a lot worse than "can you get that to me by Thursday please?" though.
Huh - that's interesting, they both read pretty similarly to my (American) ears.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:41 AM on May 24, 2016
Huh - that's interesting, they both read pretty similarly to my (American) ears.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:41 AM on May 24, 2016
> Canadian living in the American South. I have learned to say sir and ma'am, and the norms growing up for thank you and please are largely the same here
It's odd — I grew up in New Orleans and am now in Austin, but I don't recall ever using “please” when making a request to waitstaff or anyone else. Except perhaps when I was very young and was taught to think of requests as Literal Magic Words, in the sense that saying them in an exact order would always produce the intended result. I do, however, compulsively say “thank you” at the end of any sort of transaction, and I try to imbue it with real sincerity in an attempt to make up for my earlier mumbling and lack of eye contact. (I am very bad at making eye contact during conversation unless I constantly remind myself.)
“Sir” and “ma'am” feel much less useful to me now that I'm an adult and can regard other adults as equals, but I find myself pulling them out in weird situations, like extended conversations with service personnel. If I'm setting up an account at the bank, for instance, I might throw in a “yes, sir” or two — a signifier not of formality but of my growing boredom with saying “yes” and “yeah” over and over. The only times I can think of that I would use “sir” or “ma'am” in a deferential manner are (a) when pulled over by a cop, and (b) when addressing someone of advanced age who is not related to me.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:43 AM on May 24, 2016
It's odd — I grew up in New Orleans and am now in Austin, but I don't recall ever using “please” when making a request to waitstaff or anyone else. Except perhaps when I was very young and was taught to think of requests as Literal Magic Words, in the sense that saying them in an exact order would always produce the intended result. I do, however, compulsively say “thank you” at the end of any sort of transaction, and I try to imbue it with real sincerity in an attempt to make up for my earlier mumbling and lack of eye contact. (I am very bad at making eye contact during conversation unless I constantly remind myself.)
“Sir” and “ma'am” feel much less useful to me now that I'm an adult and can regard other adults as equals, but I find myself pulling them out in weird situations, like extended conversations with service personnel. If I'm setting up an account at the bank, for instance, I might throw in a “yes, sir” or two — a signifier not of formality but of my growing boredom with saying “yes” and “yeah” over and over. The only times I can think of that I would use “sir” or “ma'am” in a deferential manner are (a) when pulled over by a cop, and (b) when addressing someone of advanced age who is not related to me.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:43 AM on May 24, 2016
On reading this thread I realize that I have no idea which norm I follow when ordering food.
I will now probably have an existential crisis next time I go out to dinner.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:47 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I will now probably have an existential crisis next time I go out to dinner.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:47 AM on May 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I guess it is technically deferential, but I don't feel that way when using ma'am and sir. Around here, it's just a common marker of respect, although come to think upon it, there is an age demarcation and a gender demarcation. For example, if the boy who carries my groceries is close to my son's peer group, the odds are I'd say thank ya,darlin or sweetie, whereas if it is a teenage girl or grown woman, I'd say thank you ma'am, or thank you sir to a man over about 30. But then, darlin and sweetie are another verbal tick of this region that tends to raise hackles in people who, as the vernacular would have it, ain't from around here. I have to constantly remind myself not to do it when not in tiny town Texas.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:55 AM on May 24, 2016
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:55 AM on May 24, 2016
In the English county of Cornwall, right at the south-western tip of the UK, older people will still sometimes address casual acquaintances of either gender as "my lover". I worked in a stockbrokers' office there for a year during my degree, and the old boy running the Contracts department addressed everyone that way. God knows what people from elsewhere in the country made of it.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:08 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 11:08 AM on May 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
As a Canadian who has lived in America, I'll add my voice to those from the Mother Countr(ies)/Commonwealth who feel terribly rude ordering food without saying please and thank you.
But equally jarring is another phenomenon. I was raised to respond to "thank-you" with "you're welcome". It really threw me the first time I heard a well educated, lovely and kind coworker respond:
Uh-huh
posted by Turtles all the way down at 11:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
But equally jarring is another phenomenon. I was raised to respond to "thank-you" with "you're welcome". It really threw me the first time I heard a well educated, lovely and kind coworker respond:
Uh-huh
posted by Turtles all the way down at 11:12 AM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, uh-huh intstead of "you're welcome" (or "no problem" etc.) feels very rude to me. It seems to imply both that my thank you was not sincere or they're actually annoyed to have done whatever favour they're being thanks for, or some combination of both. Then after moving back to Canada somebody at the supermarket said thank you to me for some small thing and I said "uh-huh." I wouldn't even have realized that I said it had it not been for the woman's reaction. I saw on her face that she was obviously offended and that she was shocked that her politeness had been answered so monstrously rudely. It was the look on her face that made me mentally rewind and realize that I had said "uh-huh."
Hopefully I've acclimated back out of the habit. I assume I have since I don't recall ever having offended anyone so terribly in the supermarket again.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:21 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hopefully I've acclimated back out of the habit. I assume I have since I don't recall ever having offended anyone so terribly in the supermarket again.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:21 AM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is an interaction with someone who has already expressed their intent to do a thing for you. Adding "please" to whatever you ask for in response comes off as if you think they aren't actually going to do it unless you demand it, or that you're exasperated that they haven't already done it, or that you're a small child or you're treating them like a small child.
Serious question: do you just...not say please to anyone you ask for anything, unless you completely initiate the request? When you visit someone's house and they ask you if you'd like something to drink, would you consider it rude to add "please" to "a glass of water?" If your roommate asks if they can get you anything while they're at the drugstore, would you consider it rude to add "please" to "could you pick up some shampoo?" If a server comes over and says, "Are you ready to order?", would you consider it rude to add "please" to "Could you give us a couple more minutes?"
I get that it's not the only acceptable way of asking politely; I also get perfectly well that you can use the word in such a way that it reads rude. But I've lived in the meanest coldest city in the U.S. and worked in one of the meanest professions for quite some time. "Please" as some kind of auto-marker of rudeness to waitstaff baffles me.
posted by praemunire at 12:00 PM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Serious question: do you just...not say please to anyone you ask for anything, unless you completely initiate the request? When you visit someone's house and they ask you if you'd like something to drink, would you consider it rude to add "please" to "a glass of water?" If your roommate asks if they can get you anything while they're at the drugstore, would you consider it rude to add "please" to "could you pick up some shampoo?" If a server comes over and says, "Are you ready to order?", would you consider it rude to add "please" to "Could you give us a couple more minutes?"
I get that it's not the only acceptable way of asking politely; I also get perfectly well that you can use the word in such a way that it reads rude. But I've lived in the meanest coldest city in the U.S. and worked in one of the meanest professions for quite some time. "Please" as some kind of auto-marker of rudeness to waitstaff baffles me.
posted by praemunire at 12:00 PM on May 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
When I studied abroad in Spain a few years back, it took me a couple of weeks--and the intervention of one of my professors--to figure out why I thought madrilenos were the rudest creatures on earth.
My professor, a Guatemalan, pointed out that in Guatemala when ordering in a cafe a person would say, 'Por favor, si fuera possible, me daria una tazita de cafe?'. In the southwestern US, we would say, 'Me gusta una taza de cafe, por favor.' And in Madrid, people would say, 'Dame una taza de cafe'.
So both my extremely polite Guatemalan professor and I found the Spaniards to be so so rude. They didn't even say please when ordering! In general, the Spaniards were far more blunt and used fewer 'softening words' than we were used to.
I remember finding this especially interesting because Americans are known for being rude--but I was raised on the border and the people who taught me Spanish there were bound by different cultural norms and that's what translated over when I spoke Spanish. Perhaps not coincidentally, I say 'please' and 'thank you' when ordering meals here in Texas. Our melting pot of cultures would probably find it ruder to not to.
posted by librarylis at 12:00 PM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
My professor, a Guatemalan, pointed out that in Guatemala when ordering in a cafe a person would say, 'Por favor, si fuera possible, me daria una tazita de cafe?'. In the southwestern US, we would say, 'Me gusta una taza de cafe, por favor.' And in Madrid, people would say, 'Dame una taza de cafe'.
So both my extremely polite Guatemalan professor and I found the Spaniards to be so so rude. They didn't even say please when ordering! In general, the Spaniards were far more blunt and used fewer 'softening words' than we were used to.
I remember finding this especially interesting because Americans are known for being rude--but I was raised on the border and the people who taught me Spanish there were bound by different cultural norms and that's what translated over when I spoke Spanish. Perhaps not coincidentally, I say 'please' and 'thank you' when ordering meals here in Texas. Our melting pot of cultures would probably find it ruder to not to.
posted by librarylis at 12:00 PM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
When you visit someone's house and they ask you if you'd like something to drink, would you consider it rude to add "please" to "a glass of water?"
Codes in commercial spaces have nothing to do with codes in private spaces.
Also, just for the record, even in commercial spaces-- I never ever heard a customer say "please" and thought that they were being rude (unless they were being obviously and ostentatiously sarcastic). It isn't a huge breach. It's just...off, and usually avoided, because it sounds/seems off.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:22 PM on May 24, 2016
Codes in commercial spaces have nothing to do with codes in private spaces.
Also, just for the record, even in commercial spaces-- I never ever heard a customer say "please" and thought that they were being rude (unless they were being obviously and ostentatiously sarcastic). It isn't a huge breach. It's just...off, and usually avoided, because it sounds/seems off.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:22 PM on May 24, 2016
On reading this thread I realize that I have no idea which norm I follow when ordering food.
I will now probably have an existential crisis next time I go out to dinner.
Just bang your shoe on the table and yell, “ME HUNGRY” until someone brings you some food. The classics never fail.
I guess it is technically deferential, but I don't feel that way when using ma'am and sir. Around here, it's just a common marker of respect
I'm so envious of the ability people from the Southern United States have of using "sir"and "ma'am" without sounding phony. Whenever I try it, I sound like Eddie Haskell from Leave it to Beaver.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:24 PM on May 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
I will now probably have an existential crisis next time I go out to dinner.
Just bang your shoe on the table and yell, “ME HUNGRY” until someone brings you some food. The classics never fail.
I guess it is technically deferential, but I don't feel that way when using ma'am and sir. Around here, it's just a common marker of respect
I'm so envious of the ability people from the Southern United States have of using "sir"and "ma'am" without sounding phony. Whenever I try it, I sound like Eddie Haskell from Leave it to Beaver.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:24 PM on May 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
(Also, I've had a certain amount of stress in my life over mixing up "sir" and "ma'am." I come from a family of low-voiced women who were forever being sirred on the phone and at drive thru windows, and I called more than one woman "Sir" when I worked as a receptionist in an office where my desk was facing a wall of plate glass windows against which all visitors were backlit into blurry silhouettes. Sometimes you'd have to catch their attention in a hurry, and if they didn't respond to "Hi", "Hello," "Excuse me," and the like, and you couldn't get out from behind the desk fast enough, you'd have to take a gamble on "Sir" or "Ma'am." I chose... poorly.)
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:35 PM on May 24, 2016
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:35 PM on May 24, 2016
Yeah, I feel adding 'please' to a request is simply a matter of courtesy and respect to the individual I'm addressing, regardless of who they are and what the situation. I continue, since reading this post, to be completely baffled how it can be determined as anything but polite out of intentional and obvious sarcastic usage. As others have noted, it's the 'thank you' of the beginning of the request, the opening that preludes the closing appreciative remark of completion.
I have never met anyone until today who has ever voiced otherwise, and I really wonder how demographics and regional differences are playing a role. Anecdotally, it seems like a verbal tick of the South (albeit, not universally).
Incidentally, I was just vacationing in Britain, and while I can't recall precisely when and where, throughout my travels from England to Wales to Scotland to Ireland (Dublin airport), every now and then I got a surprised look (in the appreciative way) when I told someone to have a good day at the end of a transaction. "Thank you, have a good day."
posted by Atreides at 12:36 PM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have never met anyone until today who has ever voiced otherwise, and I really wonder how demographics and regional differences are playing a role. Anecdotally, it seems like a verbal tick of the South (albeit, not universally).
Incidentally, I was just vacationing in Britain, and while I can't recall precisely when and where, throughout my travels from England to Wales to Scotland to Ireland (Dublin airport), every now and then I got a surprised look (in the appreciative way) when I told someone to have a good day at the end of a transaction. "Thank you, have a good day."
posted by Atreides at 12:36 PM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
"I'll have a glass of water, thanks." is totally fine.
But... this sounds so dismissive to me? Like, the "thanks" literally means "you're dismissed."
I was raised in the U.S., but primarily by people speaking English as taught in colonial Asian boarding schools. My pleases and thank-yous abound, but my thank-yous are never "thanks in advance" type thank-yous.
posted by zennie at 12:39 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
But... this sounds so dismissive to me? Like, the "thanks" literally means "you're dismissed."
I was raised in the U.S., but primarily by people speaking English as taught in colonial Asian boarding schools. My pleases and thank-yous abound, but my thank-yous are never "thanks in advance" type thank-yous.
posted by zennie at 12:39 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
older people will still sometimes address casual acquaintances of either gender as "my lover"
You get that even in Oxford, so I think it must be a general south west thing. I'll always remember the charming tea lady in Oxford asking whether I'd "like a sausage roll, my lover?" Oh yes, yes please.
posted by Segundus at 12:41 PM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
You get that even in Oxford, so I think it must be a general south west thing. I'll always remember the charming tea lady in Oxford asking whether I'd "like a sausage roll, my lover?" Oh yes, yes please.
posted by Segundus at 12:41 PM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, pre-emptive thanks take me off, too. Nobody likes being taken for granted.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:52 PM on May 24, 2016
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:52 PM on May 24, 2016
But... this sounds so dismissive to me? Like, the "thanks" literally means "you're dismissed."
Not to get into the weeds too much here, but this is in the context of already having been asked what I wanted. There's no dismissiveness in assuming the question was in good faith (i.e. that the asker is asking because they legitimately want to know, so they can then go get the thing I want).
I would also argue the thanks isn't preemptive so much as a thanks for having asked (99% of the time, the thing arriving will elicit another thanks).
posted by tocts at 1:49 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not to get into the weeds too much here, but this is in the context of already having been asked what I wanted. There's no dismissiveness in assuming the question was in good faith (i.e. that the asker is asking because they legitimately want to know, so they can then go get the thing I want).
I would also argue the thanks isn't preemptive so much as a thanks for having asked (99% of the time, the thing arriving will elicit another thanks).
posted by tocts at 1:49 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh my god, what is going on. I'm just going to write my order and an apology on a piece of card, place it in a small holder at their feet and perform dogeza.
posted by lucidium at 1:52 PM on May 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 1:52 PM on May 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Another Canadian here. I use please as described in the post as the British usage. It never fails, when I'm dealing with an American vendor for work, when I use please as I do that they remark that I'm being way too polite, formal or "too Canadian". Of course I apologize for this, as Canadians are wont to do, and I have to wait a couple moments for the laughter to subside.
posted by Ashwagandha at 4:50 PM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ashwagandha at 4:50 PM on May 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
The strange thing about this is when I starting reading I was sure it was going to be about how Americans say please in restaurants and the British don't. None of this makes sense to me. I can't imagine any way that "please" is rude unless your being obviously exaggerated about it.
posted by bongo_x at 5:29 PM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 5:29 PM on May 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I feel like we need to take a page from 90s internet and A/S/L the Americans in this thread to correlate the feelings on 'please.'
Early 30s, female, grew up in Ohio/moved to Boston, completely baffled that anyone would think I'm being rude when I say "Can I please have the eggs benedict" at a restaurant.
posted by olinerd at 6:20 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Early 30s, female, grew up in Ohio/moved to Boston, completely baffled that anyone would think I'm being rude when I say "Can I please have the eggs benedict" at a restaurant.
posted by olinerd at 6:20 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was born, raised and still live in Cincinnati. As cooker girl mentions above "please" means something very different to me. It means "excuse me?, I didn't catch that." i.e.; it roughly means "what?"
So I'm all for civility and I think I try to be kind in all of my transactions, but in general I don't say "please" unless I didn't understand you. I blame it on old German customs.
posted by codex99 at 6:47 PM on May 24, 2016
So I'm all for civility and I think I try to be kind in all of my transactions, but in general I don't say "please" unless I didn't understand you. I blame it on old German customs.
posted by codex99 at 6:47 PM on May 24, 2016
I'm Australian, and I was brought up with a lot of please and thank youing. To this day, I have interactions in shops that go like this:
Me: I'll have a flat white and a portugese tart, please.
Shop Person: That'll be x dollars, please.
M: (handing over money) Thank you.
SP: (taking money) Thank you.
M: (receiving coffee and cakie) Thank you.
SP: (handing over coffee and cakie) Thank you.
But if you don't say please and thank you to people you're conducting a transaction with, the implicit message is that the person is a servant or an automaton, not even worthy of the most elementary courtesy. They're just little polite flourishes that recognise everyone's essential humanity.
posted by glitter at 8:30 PM on May 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Me: I'll have a flat white and a portugese tart, please.
Shop Person: That'll be x dollars, please.
M: (handing over money) Thank you.
SP: (taking money) Thank you.
M: (receiving coffee and cakie) Thank you.
SP: (handing over coffee and cakie) Thank you.
But if you don't say please and thank you to people you're conducting a transaction with, the implicit message is that the person is a servant or an automaton, not even worthy of the most elementary courtesy. They're just little polite flourishes that recognise everyone's essential humanity.
posted by glitter at 8:30 PM on May 24, 2016 [8 favorites]
Another Canadian here and the idea of not saying please and that it's rude to use it just feels so wrong that it's stressing me out.
At several times in my life I've worked in different tourist areas and this difference perhaps explains why so many Americans always seemed so rude all the time. It was totally a noticible thing that we would joke and roll our eyes about.
posted by Jalliah at 8:35 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
At several times in my life I've worked in different tourist areas and this difference perhaps explains why so many Americans always seemed so rude all the time. It was totally a noticible thing that we would joke and roll our eyes about.
posted by Jalliah at 8:35 PM on May 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
This American uses "please" and "thank you" all the time and don't think anything of it. Millions of Americans are the same. At the same time, I might not say "please" when, say ordering my lunch at a restaurant but it's not out of rudeness. And the waiter or waitress almost certainly is not offended by a lack of "please"--it's likely he/she didn't notice the lack just as much as I didn't. If I am making eye contact, smiling, using a normal tone of voice, and otherwise being as polite and friendly as I can, then I think that more or less compensates for not using a particular word like "please".
I guess what I'm saying is I reject the notion that "please" and "thank you" are somehow rare in the U.S., but I also reject the premise that not using them is necessarily rude.
posted by zardoz at 10:40 PM on May 24, 2016
I guess what I'm saying is I reject the notion that "please" and "thank you" are somehow rare in the U.S., but I also reject the premise that not using them is necessarily rude.
posted by zardoz at 10:40 PM on May 24, 2016
Zardoz, that depends entirely on where you are. In many places, that is certainly rude, no matter how polite you are otherwise being. If you do this in England, you may not intend any rudeness, but you'll still be considered rude.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:47 AM on May 25, 2016
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:47 AM on May 25, 2016
But... this sounds so dismissive to me? Like, the "thanks" literally means "you're dismissed."
This is where it is all about tone of voice. If I say, "I'll have a cup of water, thanks" with the thanks being cheery and happy, that is saying something very different than a the same statement with a curt "thanks" that is there to punctuate and signal that the interaction is over and on my terms. Same word, very different meanings based on tone.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:02 AM on May 25, 2016
This is where it is all about tone of voice. If I say, "I'll have a cup of water, thanks" with the thanks being cheery and happy, that is saying something very different than a the same statement with a curt "thanks" that is there to punctuate and signal that the interaction is over and on my terms. Same word, very different meanings based on tone.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:02 AM on May 25, 2016
Too-Ticky--
Fair enough. If I find myself in the U.K. and omit my "please"s and "thank you"s and offend the Britisher on the receiving end of that, I will suck it up and accept that I am a boorish American (assuming I notice my offense or am made to notice it). Personally speaking, though, I'm not sure slavishly adhering to such "politeness" regardless of every other factor is really that desirable a custom. But that's just this boorish American's opinion.
posted by zardoz at 6:15 AM on May 25, 2016
Fair enough. If I find myself in the U.K. and omit my "please"s and "thank you"s and offend the Britisher on the receiving end of that, I will suck it up and accept that I am a boorish American (assuming I notice my offense or am made to notice it). Personally speaking, though, I'm not sure slavishly adhering to such "politeness" regardless of every other factor is really that desirable a custom. But that's just this boorish American's opinion.
posted by zardoz at 6:15 AM on May 25, 2016
Personally speaking, though, I'm not sure slavishly adhering to such "politeness" regardless of every other factor
It's not regardless of every other factor though, and nor is it slavish. It is precisely through a consistent general adherence that its absence gains pointed meaning when desired.
posted by Dysk at 6:25 AM on May 25, 2016
It's not regardless of every other factor though, and nor is it slavish. It is precisely through a consistent general adherence that its absence gains pointed meaning when desired.
posted by Dysk at 6:25 AM on May 25, 2016
I'm a dual citizen (Canada and US) who lived in Canada as a young kid and the US since, and have also spent time in the UK and South Africa. I wonder if part of the reason Americans don't use verbal "politeness signifiers" as frequently is because they/we tend to be very facially expressive, with tendency to smile at strangers being the most obvious aspect of that. If I'm smiling continuously at a waiter and have a generally friendly and open expression during our interaction, maybe the "please"es and "thank you"s feel less necessary.
posted by odayoday at 8:02 AM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by odayoday at 8:02 AM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I will suck it up
They may not be all you suck up. Spitting in the food of any customer perceived to be an asshole is an treasured custom among restaurant staff all over the world.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:28 AM on May 25, 2016
They may not be all you suck up. Spitting in the food of any customer perceived to be an asshole is an treasured custom among restaurant staff all over the world.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:28 AM on May 25, 2016
ice cold northeasterner for life
Its cute when Americans from their Northeast think of themselves as cold. Being from the actual Canadian North, trust me when I say it can get much colder. And we still say please and thank you.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:38 AM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Its cute when Americans from their Northeast think of themselves as cold. Being from the actual Canadian North, trust me when I say it can get much colder. And we still say please and thank you.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:38 AM on May 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Being from the actual Canadian North, trust me when I say it can get much colder. And we still say please and thank you.
Yeah, you can't take any chances about coming off as unfriendly during a Canadian winter. When push comes to shove, somebody's gonna get scooped out and crawled into for warmth like a Tauntaun, and it probably ain't gonna be Mr. or Miss Manners with the Salerno butter cookie on their crooked pinky finger.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:28 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, you can't take any chances about coming off as unfriendly during a Canadian winter. When push comes to shove, somebody's gonna get scooped out and crawled into for warmth like a Tauntaun, and it probably ain't gonna be Mr. or Miss Manners with the Salerno butter cookie on their crooked pinky finger.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:28 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Its cute when Americans from their Northeast think of themselves as cold.
As an American, I have 100% always interpreted "ice cold northeasterner" to refer to personality and affect, and having nothing to do with weather.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:24 PM on May 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
As an American, I have 100% always interpreted "ice cold northeasterner" to refer to personality and affect, and having nothing to do with weather.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:24 PM on May 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
My situation's a bit like odayoday's, only minus South Africa. I always, always say please, thank you, and sorry. The only time anyone in any part of the United States has reacted oddly was fairly recently when I cracked up a co-worker who overheard me asking Siri to "please set the timer for two and a half minutes".
posted by tangerine at 4:32 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tangerine at 4:32 PM on May 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess what I'm saying is I reject the notion that "please" and "thank you" are somehow rare in the U.S., but I also reject the premise that not using them is necessarily rude.
zardoz, my reading of the discussion thus far (and my understanding of the issue) is that few behaviours and practices that have been mentioned are rude per se, but there appear to be somewhat impenetrable codes across different cultures as far as perceived norms of politeness, to the point where an action or statement considered very polite on one culture might be perceived as downright insulting or at least dismissive or peremptory in another.
e.g., in Canada:
"Excuse me Miss, may I please have another glass of water?...Thank you :-)" (Totally polite)
"Please get me another glass of water, thank you." (Sounds like a fucking order)
For which, I say, rejoice! Despite persistent attempts by the global media and corporations, we have not yet surrendered our individual cultural quirks. (Although we would be much more compliant consumers had we done so...)
posted by Turtles all the way down at 5:40 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
zardoz, my reading of the discussion thus far (and my understanding of the issue) is that few behaviours and practices that have been mentioned are rude per se, but there appear to be somewhat impenetrable codes across different cultures as far as perceived norms of politeness, to the point where an action or statement considered very polite on one culture might be perceived as downright insulting or at least dismissive or peremptory in another.
e.g., in Canada:
"Excuse me Miss, may I please have another glass of water?...Thank you :-)" (Totally polite)
"Please get me another glass of water, thank you." (Sounds like a fucking order)
For which, I say, rejoice! Despite persistent attempts by the global media and corporations, we have not yet surrendered our individual cultural quirks. (Although we would be much more compliant consumers had we done so...)
posted by Turtles all the way down at 5:40 AM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted; I know it's meant in a lighthearted way but the jokes about killing specific kinds of people get ugly fast, better to just not.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:11 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:11 AM on May 26, 2016
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Doesn't really go into the nuances of how "please" can mean "fuck you" with utter intensity, but I'm sure that is covered elsewhere.
posted by Artw at 10:08 PM on May 23, 2016 [1 favorite]