Neanderthal Speleofacts
May 26, 2016 10:30 AM Subscribe
Neanderthals built mysterious cave structures 175,000 years ago which have been recently discovered in southwestern France. Walls were fashioned from stalagmites, and the area lit up with fireplaces. The French National Scientific Research Centre has released photos and a video about the site.
Fascinating! Shades of Lovecraft's "The Rats in the Walls".
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:32 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:32 AM on May 26, 2016
Methinks 'The Beast in the Cave' is nearer to the mark.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:37 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by FatherDagon at 10:37 AM on May 26, 2016
This is awesome, but I nearly die every time I see someone squeeze into a small cave.
posted by iamfantastikate at 10:45 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by iamfantastikate at 10:45 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Spelunkheads
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:47 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:47 AM on May 26, 2016
2.8%* of me is not surprised at all.
*according to 23andMe, anyway!
posted by palindromic at 10:50 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
*according to 23andMe, anyway!
posted by palindromic at 10:50 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Methinks 'The Beast in the Cave' is nearer to the mark.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:37 AM on May 26 [+] [!]
Methinks I'd be a fool to argue the point, padre.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:51 AM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by FatherDagon at 10:37 AM on May 26 [+] [!]
Methinks I'd be a fool to argue the point, padre.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:51 AM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
They say these sites are 1000 feet from the cave entrance but I wonder if there wasn't another, closer entrance. It's impossible to tell without seeing the cave. But it changes the interpretation from 'site of mysterious rites performed deep in a cave' to 'dry and wind free place to cook dinner and spend the night'.
posted by Bee'sWing at 10:52 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 10:52 AM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
In addition to the the speculation about a possible ritual use or a practical use to contain a fire, I'm wondering if they are thinking at all about something simpler, like kids or bored adults just playing around.
posted by beagle at 10:54 AM on May 26, 2016
posted by beagle at 10:54 AM on May 26, 2016
The Neanderthals were probably just doing the same thing you'd do (or would have done, when this was still something you could do, back in like the 90s) with a huge, cheap industrial loft: build little individual rooms within the big space to make cosy, private places to sleep.
posted by Flashman at 10:58 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Flashman at 10:58 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
These structures are ~175,000 years old. Modern humans as a species evolved somewhere between 100k and 200k years ago - this could be architecture older than modern Humanity itself.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:01 AM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:01 AM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
The more we learn about Neanderthals the more fascinating and terrible the story seems. They're effectively human on most important measures: culture, tool use, probably speech. Living and developing in parallel with Homo sapiens. And then entirely wiped out, a true genocide, other than a ~2% trace of DNA left in humanity. It's chilling.
posted by Nelson at 11:02 AM on May 26, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 11:02 AM on May 26, 2016 [10 favorites]
Have we ruled out gentrification?
posted by mule98J at 11:17 AM on May 26, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by mule98J at 11:17 AM on May 26, 2016 [18 favorites]
The video is worth it for the cave drone!
I love UAV's being used in ways that I, personally, didn't expect, but of course the utility for that purpose would have been immediately obvious to anyone in the field.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:21 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love UAV's being used in ways that I, personally, didn't expect, but of course the utility for that purpose would have been immediately obvious to anyone in the field.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:21 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fascinating! Shades of Lovecraft's "The Rats in the Walls".
Methinks 'The Beast in the Cave' is nearer to the mark.
Shades of Beowulf is what this stuff makes me think.
posted by jamjam at 11:30 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I really like how the head archeologist basically says "fuck if I know what this is" in the video. It's so far out of any context that they really have to start from almost nothing when trying to make sense of it.
posted by Kattullus at 12:03 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 12:03 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Obviously a make-out room.
posted by Kabanos at 12:19 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Kabanos at 12:19 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
The more we learn about Neanderthals the more fascinating and terrible the story seems. They're effectively human on most important measures: culture, tool use, probably speech. Living and developing in parallel with Homo sapiens. And then entirely wiped out, a true genocide, other than a ~2% trace of DNA left in humanity. It's chilling.
Why? Us or them. They should have built better cave shelters.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:28 PM on May 26, 2016
Why? Us or them. They should have built better cave shelters.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:28 PM on May 26, 2016
My understanding was that the artifacts have been known for some time, but a new dating technique has revised their age.
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:32 PM on May 26, 2016
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:32 PM on May 26, 2016
Is there a way to guesstimate if there was an easier route in at the time? A thousand feet without electric lamps is quite a trek, did the Neanderthals have an ancient-high-tech candle?
posted by sammyo at 12:38 PM on May 26, 2016
posted by sammyo at 12:38 PM on May 26, 2016
Yesterday it's "Oceans on Europa!" Today it's Neanderthal (?) partied in caves, a good long time before we even knew they were around!
Two amazing stories. Tomorrow better be jetpacks, dammit.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:56 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Two amazing stories. Tomorrow better be jetpacks, dammit.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:56 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is there a way to guesstimate if there was an easier route in at the time? A thousand feet without electric lamps is quite a trek, did the Neanderthals have an ancient-high-tech candle?
The NPR story this morning mentioned that among the artifacts there were long bones with charring on them, which suggested they might have been used as torches. That's speculation of course, but would explain how they could get around in the dark cave. Neanderthals, despite the "brutish caveman" stereotype, were pretty sophisticated, with art, tools, burial rituals, and almost certainly language.
posted by aught at 1:14 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
The NPR story this morning mentioned that among the artifacts there were long bones with charring on them, which suggested they might have been used as torches. That's speculation of course, but would explain how they could get around in the dark cave. Neanderthals, despite the "brutish caveman" stereotype, were pretty sophisticated, with art, tools, burial rituals, and almost certainly language.
posted by aught at 1:14 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
despite the "brutish caveman" stereotype
Yeah, if my high-tech-candle ran out of batteries I'd still be down there. I couldn't start a fire in a forest of matchsticks. They were making fires in a damp cave 1000 feet underground. I can't imagine they found their speleofact in total darkness and then started a fire though. And since they had to bring the fire wood with them anyhow, it makes sense they'd bring it already on fire, just for practicality.
posted by adept256 at 1:29 PM on May 26, 2016
Yeah, if my high-tech-candle ran out of batteries I'd still be down there. I couldn't start a fire in a forest of matchsticks. They were making fires in a damp cave 1000 feet underground. I can't imagine they found their speleofact in total darkness and then started a fire though. And since they had to bring the fire wood with them anyhow, it makes sense they'd bring it already on fire, just for practicality.
posted by adept256 at 1:29 PM on May 26, 2016
Whenever I see reports of this sort appended with "We don't know why they did this," I think it was probably some guy who got sick to death of the other Neaderthals and decided to build a fort to get away from everybody else. If he used a bit of woo to make them leave him the fuck alone, then I sympathize with Grog.
posted by RedEmma at 1:34 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by RedEmma at 1:34 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
A big bone filled with fatty marrow could be used for light.
Look at the videos that the Primative Technology guy makes, or read about what Otzi was carrying when he died high in the Alps and you will have a new respect for what "primitive" humans where up to. I bet Neanderthals weren't all that different. They were surviving and thriving in very tough conditions.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:41 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Look at the videos that the Primative Technology guy makes, or read about what Otzi was carrying when he died high in the Alps and you will have a new respect for what "primitive" humans where up to. I bet Neanderthals weren't all that different. They were surviving and thriving in very tough conditions.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:41 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nelson: And then entirely wiped out, a true genocide, other than a ~2% trace of DNA left in humanity.
It's not really clear if it was genocide, in the sense of deliberate killing. It's certainly possible, but from what we can tell, homo sapiens was more efficient at gathering resources than homo neanderthalensis. So they could support a higher density of population in the same area; early Neanderthal DNA shows signs of incest even before pressure from h. sapiens. Which leads to two potential routes: Neanderthals being pushed out by having to look for better hunting grounds, or simply being absorbed. And because their numbers were so low, they would represent a relatively small contribution to the European gene pool (there's also signs of impaired fertility in hybrids, IIRC.)
Given that we see evidence of mass murder by homo sapiens at least 10K years back, slaughter is a possibility, but there's been no evidence found so far.
posted by tavella at 1:46 PM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's not really clear if it was genocide, in the sense of deliberate killing. It's certainly possible, but from what we can tell, homo sapiens was more efficient at gathering resources than homo neanderthalensis. So they could support a higher density of population in the same area; early Neanderthal DNA shows signs of incest even before pressure from h. sapiens. Which leads to two potential routes: Neanderthals being pushed out by having to look for better hunting grounds, or simply being absorbed. And because their numbers were so low, they would represent a relatively small contribution to the European gene pool (there's also signs of impaired fertility in hybrids, IIRC.)
Given that we see evidence of mass murder by homo sapiens at least 10K years back, slaughter is a possibility, but there's been no evidence found so far.
posted by tavella at 1:46 PM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
And then entirely wiped out, a true genocide ...
There isn't, AFAIK, any definitive evidence pointing to genocide as the explanation for Neanderthal extinction. It might've been, or it might've been a natural diminution of the species combined with a dissolution into Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Or it might've been some combination of all three. Or something else entirely.
Re: the find, there's so much human history of which we are just totally ignorant that it wouldn't surprise me if it were Neanderthal construction. At the same time, the difficulty of determining precisely what such things as this are and the difficulty of being certain that they aren't natural, always leaves me with some skepticism.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:48 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
There isn't, AFAIK, any definitive evidence pointing to genocide as the explanation for Neanderthal extinction. It might've been, or it might've been a natural diminution of the species combined with a dissolution into Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Or it might've been some combination of all three. Or something else entirely.
Re: the find, there's so much human history of which we are just totally ignorant that it wouldn't surprise me if it were Neanderthal construction. At the same time, the difficulty of determining precisely what such things as this are and the difficulty of being certain that they aren't natural, always leaves me with some skepticism.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:48 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
there's so much human history of which we are just totally ignorant
This is one of the things that just blows my mind sometimes. Most people think a thousand years is an unimaginably long time ago, but there were people living and making art and burying their dead and so on a hundred (or more) times longer ago than that. Dizzying deep history.
posted by aught at 1:52 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is one of the things that just blows my mind sometimes. Most people think a thousand years is an unimaginably long time ago, but there were people living and making art and burying their dead and so on a hundred (or more) times longer ago than that. Dizzying deep history.
posted by aught at 1:52 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, you can drop all of recorded history, many times over, into the 20,000 year gap just between the Hohlenstein Stadel lion man and the Lascaux paintings. Whole civilizations that might have risen and fallen in that time. And of which we will likely never know anything.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:00 PM on May 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 2:00 PM on May 26, 2016 [15 favorites]
(And by "civilizations," I mean societies, ways of life, not urban, mechanical civilization such as we know.)
posted by octobersurprise at 2:04 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by octobersurprise at 2:04 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's hard to imagine what would compel them to travel so deep underground and I'd generally expect that there'd be an undiscovered entrance closer by but this case was FPP'd a while back. It seems this scrawny little proto-human dragged it's dead deep into the back of a cave for burial. Without any illumination. Yeesh.
posted by bonobothegreat at 2:23 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 2:23 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Absolutely dizzying. To think about them going about their lives so long ago. If a year were a second, the average person lives for a minute, and they were around two days ago.
posted by lucidium at 2:52 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lucidium at 2:52 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
What's fascinating to me is that the most interesting Homo sapien neanderthalis (Neanderthal) and Homo sapien sapien (modern human) sites of more than 12,000 years ago could all have been destroyed by rising sea levels. River deltas and estuaries are extremely productive places from which to gather food and hunt. The encampments, whether in caves, or in open terrain would have been completely flooded as sea levels rose at end of the last Ice Age. There is so much we may never know about our extinct cousins and our distant modern ancestors.
posted by haiku warrior at 3:18 PM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by haiku warrior at 3:18 PM on May 26, 2016 [6 favorites]
Is there a way to guesstimate if there was an easier route in at the time? A thousand feet without electric lamps is quite a trek, did the Neanderthals have an ancient-high-tech candle?
Another article I read in Nature mentioned that there were cave bear hibernation hollows in the same cave system, which implies that there must have been a larger entryway at one point.
posted by kanewai at 3:57 PM on May 26, 2016
Another article I read in Nature mentioned that there were cave bear hibernation hollows in the same cave system, which implies that there must have been a larger entryway at one point.
posted by kanewai at 3:57 PM on May 26, 2016
Neanderthals may have died of diseases carried by humans from Africa: New research challenges the idea that the spread of infectious diseases exploded as agriculture evolved 8,000 years ago
posted by homunculus at 6:25 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 6:25 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
I regret the use of the word "genocide" now, because for us it recalls a deliberate program along the lines of Nazi Germany or something. That's a modern concept that requires an understanding of populations and the size of the world. Perhaps "outcompete" would be a better term. Or maybe it's absorption. Or disease.
posted by Nelson at 6:29 PM on May 26, 2016
posted by Nelson at 6:29 PM on May 26, 2016
And then entirely wiped out, a true genocide, other than a ~2% trace of DNA left in humanity. It's chilling.
Climate change, not genocide, seems like the likely cause of their extinction.
posted by My Dad at 9:54 PM on May 26, 2016
Climate change, not genocide, seems like the likely cause of their extinction.
posted by My Dad at 9:54 PM on May 26, 2016
bonobothegreat: "It's hard to imagine what would compel them to travel so deep underground"
Could just be that was the first place large and flat enough for their purpose. The video shows the site ankle deep in water but I wonder if it was dryer during the occupied time.
Was there a 3d representation of the way in someplace that I missed? One of the diagrams shows the cave structure but either it doesn't represent cross section or I don't know how to read it.
posted by Mitheral at 11:10 PM on May 26, 2016
Could just be that was the first place large and flat enough for their purpose. The video shows the site ankle deep in water but I wonder if it was dryer during the occupied time.
Was there a 3d representation of the way in someplace that I missed? One of the diagrams shows the cave structure but either it doesn't represent cross section or I don't know how to read it.
posted by Mitheral at 11:10 PM on May 26, 2016
As to the depth of the cave - In a different article about a different cave that was in the same area, they described how the cave was buried when the hill above it collapsed onto the opening. So imagine the cave is a hundred meters deep (very deep) but with a reasonably wide opening, then the hill above collapses onto the opening, burying it and making the cave now three times as deep.
So the original inhabitants found a deep cave, but not a craaaazy deep cave.
What I find most perplexing about this finding is that the way they went about figuring out when (approx.) the stalagmites were broken off makes good sense, but the age they come up with is so damn old - what was the margin of error on these tests?
Can you imagine first coming across this cave? Seeing these stalagmites that have obviously been arranged and trying to understand, even begin to understand, why and when and by whom this could have happened. I, personally, would have definitely needed a second cup of coffee. At that moment, standing in that cave, you're nothing less than an astronaut, exploring a time and a place utterly alien. (Maybe a third cup of coffee.)
posted by From Bklyn at 11:48 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
So the original inhabitants found a deep cave, but not a craaaazy deep cave.
What I find most perplexing about this finding is that the way they went about figuring out when (approx.) the stalagmites were broken off makes good sense, but the age they come up with is so damn old - what was the margin of error on these tests?
Can you imagine first coming across this cave? Seeing these stalagmites that have obviously been arranged and trying to understand, even begin to understand, why and when and by whom this could have happened. I, personally, would have definitely needed a second cup of coffee. At that moment, standing in that cave, you're nothing less than an astronaut, exploring a time and a place utterly alien. (Maybe a third cup of coffee.)
posted by From Bklyn at 11:48 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
From Bklyn: "what was the margin of error on these tests?"
The video says +/- 2100 years.
posted by Mitheral at 11:51 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
The video says +/- 2100 years.
posted by Mitheral at 11:51 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
And the nature article has this diagram of the dating showing margin of error on each sample.
posted by Mitheral at 11:54 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 11:54 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks Mitheral, after some extensive googling I now know 175000 years ago Neanderthal had been in 'Europe' for a loooong time... Which then ... I can't fall down this rabbit hole, not right now, but the millennia that hominids have been around and the tiny sliver of info we have about them - is staggeringly large.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:29 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by From Bklyn at 12:29 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
In addition to the the speculation about a possible ritual use or a practical use to contain a fire, I'm wondering if they are thinking at all about something simpler, like kids or bored adults just playing around.
Reminds me of this tunnel that was discovered in Toronto last year. Some people freaked out, and everyone was speculating about why someone would dig such a thing, saying that nobody would do it just for fun. Turns out, the guy just really likes tunnels and was just having a good time (article).
posted by beau jackson at 8:07 AM on May 27, 2016
Reminds me of this tunnel that was discovered in Toronto last year. Some people freaked out, and everyone was speculating about why someone would dig such a thing, saying that nobody would do it just for fun. Turns out, the guy just really likes tunnels and was just having a good time (article).
posted by beau jackson at 8:07 AM on May 27, 2016
It's hard to imagine what would compel them to travel so deep underground
Cylons.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:26 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cylons.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:26 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sufficiently deep caves stay the same temperature all year round. If they were dying of heatstroke or frostbite too often, hanging out in a cave would be the thing to do.
posted by LogicalDash at 8:48 AM on May 27, 2016
posted by LogicalDash at 8:48 AM on May 27, 2016
It's going to be great when 100,000 years from now scientist are trying to figure out what those neatly drilled holes are.
posted by bongo_x at 8:25 PM on May 30, 2016
posted by bongo_x at 8:25 PM on May 30, 2016
Turns out, the guy just really likes tunnels and was just having a good time (article).
We did that all the time as kids. All the kids in the neighborhood did. The Mysterious Caves of Riverside, CA.
posted by bongo_x at 8:28 PM on May 30, 2016
We did that all the time as kids. All the kids in the neighborhood did. The Mysterious Caves of Riverside, CA.
posted by bongo_x at 8:28 PM on May 30, 2016
the most interesting Homo sapien neanderthalis (Neanderthal) and Homo sapien sapien (modern human) sites of more than 12,000 years ago could all have been destroyed by rising sea levels.
I read a fascinating book a few years ago about the migration of humans into North America that talked about diving to their archaeological sites.
posted by epersonae at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2016
I read a fascinating book a few years ago about the migration of humans into North America that talked about diving to their archaeological sites.
posted by epersonae at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2016
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posted by Kattullus at 10:32 AM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]