The Brexit threat to Spain's little Britain
May 27, 2016 9:38 AM   Subscribe

 
I know a couple of Brits who live there. Racist as fuck, often in ways that are utterly incomprehensible to me -- like, I can't even tell what nationality or creed or whatever it is they're even complaining about, but they've clearly got firmly entrenched stereotypes. Of course, they'll never go back to the UK full-time because of all the [insert racist word here].
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Donnelly, now 76, came out here as a 48-year-old after working as a refrigeration engineer. (“It wasn’t the cold in the fridges I minded, it was the cold outside.”) Fluent in Spanish, he is appalled by the prevailing expat indifference: “It’s abysmal. I cannot get anybody to assist me on committees where we have to deal with the authorities and speak Spanish.” But why bother? The locals make the effort instead.
[...]
The [pro-Brexit] mostly made points exported wholesale from the UK. “I’m not too happy about 90m Turks coming to England. We’ll finish up with a Muslim state,” said Geoff Kangley from Sheffield. “It won’t affect us,” said Keith Giles from Surrey, “but I don’t want future generations to lose sovereignty.” “I’m trying not to be selfish here,” insisted Eve Suffield from Cheshire. “My son’s trying to run a business in England and there are so many regulations that are not required by the British government.” One anti referred to being “in this country”, meaning Britain, which seemed both rather sweet and very telling.


Wow, no sense of irony from some of these people.
posted by indubitable at 10:12 AM on May 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


As another Guardian article linked from this one points out, these white guys are always 'expats' and never 'immigrants' and their average language skills are way below those of the supposedly 'non assimilating' immigrants back in the UK. A lot of them are also ex-policemen, who are famously often retired by 47 on nice pensions in the UK. It must be hell on earth.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:15 AM on May 27, 2016 [20 favorites]


A lot of them are also ex-policemen, who are famously often retired by 47 on nice pensions in the UK.

Or military (the guys I know there are ex-Forces), who also retire around that age.
posted by Etrigan at 10:18 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


there are two main sorts of british expats in spain: the ones who want you to know immediately that they are british; and the ones who avoid them.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:22 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


The Guardian prints an article saying multiculturalism is bad and that immigrants are too lazy to assimilate and learn the language. My irony meter just exploded.

Could this article be more snobbish about working class people? I know that posh people like me like to patronize the locals in bad Spanish and brag about how Jocasta learned to cook authentic vegan paella while we stayed in a genuine Basque basket maker's shed, but some people just want to hang out with their friends and drink beer somewhere out of the drizzle.
posted by w0mbat at 11:02 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


I lived in Spain for 30 years. When other Brits asked me if I ever went home I said yes, every night unless I am on holiday or away for work. Some of them tended to look at me a bit strangely after that.
The retired people generally don´t bother to learn the language and some are very proud that they haven´t. The locals tolerate them because, you know, Money.
posted by adamvasco at 11:04 AM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Guardian prints an article saying multiculturalism is bad and that immigrants are too lazy to assimilate and learn the language. My irony meter just exploded.

*nods meaningfully*
The "immigrant" versus "expat" distinction is profoundly racist more often than not. We have Brit enclaves in France as well, mainly in Provence. They'll speak a smidgen of French with heavy English accents because it's posh, then scoff at the French and their "terrible English." IN FRANCE. Then talk about immigrants who come to Europe just for healthcare and jobs in hushed tones. As they use the very same healthcare.
and the only reason I'm focusing on Brits is because it's TFA, I'm not sparing other privileged "expats" who behave similarly
posted by fraula at 11:27 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]


It's appalling that owning a British passport does not automatically grant you the right to vote in the referendum.

Resident elsewhere for fifteen years, no vote for you, resident in the UK with a foreign passport well no vote for you either! The only people that get to vote are those that haven't bothered to take advantage of what the EU gives you in the first place.
posted by zeoslap at 11:30 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


"...They talk about Syrians, but if Britain comes out of Europe they’ll have about two million pensioners coming back demanding to go on the NHS."

It turns out the UK is paying for pensioners to use Spanish healthcare anyway, so the net cost is the difference between the two. Spain is about 10% cheaper than in the UK, but given that UK residents will have to pay taxes I doubt there will be much difference overall.

It's appalling that owning a British passport does not automatically grant you the right to vote in the referendum.

It's appalling that owning a British passport does not automatically grant the right for the UK to tax you. The US has a system where all citizens abroad file their taxes with US authorities and may be liable to pay on income earnt outside the US. The UK need worldwide taxation for citizens now: register for tax and to vote at the same time. No representation without taxation.

The Guardian prints an article saying multiculturalism is bad and that immigrants are too lazy to assimilate and learn the language. My irony meter just exploded.

Could this article be more snobbish about working class people?


Ask a working class former Labour voter why they've stopped supporting and the common refrain is, "they care more about brown people than working people". It's hardly a nice thing to say or think, but it is a very, very common belief. Labour's former base is mostly either old or defected.
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:41 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


w0mbat, are you Richard Littlejohn? He's the only guy who's used 'Jocasta' as the joke name for a Guardian reader in the last 1000 years.

It's precisely the lack of multiculturalism that's wrong with Brits being able to colonise corners of Spain because of their cash.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:42 AM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


The US has a system where all citizens abroad file their taxes with US authorities and may be liable to pay on income earnt outside the US. The UK need worldwide taxation for citizens now

Please, no. The US system is terrible and problematic. If you're not resident in a country and don't earn any income there then it shouldn't be taxing you. Period. Citizenship isn't a product you buy with tax payments, it's a human right.
posted by GuyZero at 12:03 PM on May 27, 2016 [18 favorites]


Labour's former base is mostly either old or defected.

Now we have several hundred thousand younger and fully engaged activists who've joined since Corbyn, who himself is a campaigner for working-class issues for decades, so old-onset racists can now review their opinions and take stock, or just fuck off.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:03 PM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Please, no. The US system is terrible and problematic. If you're not resident in a country and don't earn any income there then it shouldn't be taxing you. Period. Citizenship isn't a product you buy with tax payments, it's a human right.

Agreed. As a US immigrant in Canada who doesn't make shit, it's time-consuming and infuriating to be taxed on a meager income that isn't earned there. I'm happy to pay my taxes when I reside in my home country, but if I'm not making money on US soil, then I should be left alone. I just learned that I can't even open a TFSA here because of US taxes. I really wanted a TFSA.
posted by Kitteh at 12:08 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's precisely the lack of multiculturalism that's wrong with Brits being able to colonise corners of Spain because of their cash.

So, these people, who are amongst the minority of Brits that are actually using the UK's membership of the EU in the way that we're told it should be used, are doing it wrong? Free movement, right to work, and right to residence is one of the founding principles of the EU. If the Guardian thinks that those principles should only be exercised by people with great language skills and who won't choose to socialise with others of their own nationality, then it should say so. Unlike the vast majority of those who'll be voting in the referendum, the people in that article are making good on the promise of the EU.

For many people, learning a second language is hard. And it gets harder with age. It's only to be expected that that can result in isolated communities. It can become a negative feedback loop. If the only people you socialise with are others that also can't speak the local lingo, that itself obviously limits the opportunities to learn the language. Yet, to break that loop, it often feels like you're burdening others. For example, if I'm out for lunch with locals, because of my imperfect grasp of the language I'm acutely aware that the burden is on them to facilitate conversation. It puts them in the position of teaching, when sometimes they just don't feel like doing that.
posted by veedubya at 12:15 PM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Please, no. The US system is terrible and problematic. If you're not resident in a country and don't earn any income there then it shouldn't be taxing you. Period. Citizenship isn't a product you buy with tax payments, it's a human right.

Currently the UK has a system where citizens can live in tax havens and pay no tax to anybody anywhere and still demand the right to vote. Lots of things are human rights, and they can only be upheld by a state which has the money to uphold them. Human rights for the wealthy to steal tax tend to disrupt the human rights of the poor to education, health, and justice. I'm happy for wealthy people to forswear their citizenship just like they've forsworn their fellow citizens, if they think that being a citizen of Belize or Dubai is a better bargain.

If every country had worldwide taxation, the crime of tax evasion simply could not exist. Period.

Now we have several hundred thousand younger and fully engaged activists who've joined since Corbyn, who himself is a campaigner for working-class issues for decades, so old-onset racists can now review their opinions and take stock, or just fuck off.

There are plenty of young activists. There aren't plenty of young-or any age-working class people. Only one of these two groups will provide a majority in future parliaments, the question is for which party.
posted by Emma May Smith at 12:30 PM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


The US tax system, at least to this outsider, seems like a nightmare. Not long ago I was talking to a US citizen about the grief they were having just opening a bank account in Europe. Lots of banks don't want to have anything to do with them, because of the reporting requirements.
posted by veedubya at 12:43 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, wasn't there a story a few years ago where Swiss banks dropped a load of US customers because they attracted too much attention? They didn't want the US authorities sniffing round their outfits and disturbing their other clients. Who knows why? (Tip: you know why.)
posted by Emma May Smith at 12:50 PM on May 27, 2016


There's a difference between having a Swiss bank account into which will be funnelled ill-gotten millions, and a simple European household account that a salary can be paid into.

Yes tax dodging should be dealt with, but not at the expense of pooping all over the vast majority that aren't tax dodgers. As they say, hard cases make bad law.
posted by veedubya at 12:59 PM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's appalling that owning a British passport does not automatically grant the right for the UK to tax you.

If you want to go the taxes = voting rights path then let all the EU citizens currently residing in, and paying taxes to the UK vote as well. You can't have it both ways; well I guess you can but it doesn't make it right.
posted by zeoslap at 1:08 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't have any strong feelings either way on the 15 year limit for expat voting, but I do think that limiting the referendum to UK voters is the right thing to do. I can't articulate it well but, to me, it feels right.
posted by veedubya at 1:14 PM on May 27, 2016


There aren't plenty of young-or any age-working class people. Only one of these two groups will provide a majority in future parliaments, the question is for which party.

Spending all your energy on parliamentary majorities leads only to arselicking Murdoch and Blairism anyway. It's bullshit and everyone knows it intuitively until they've been ground down by decades of Radio 4. The Labour Party is just a part of building the revolutionary party.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:32 PM on May 27, 2016


Free movement, right to work, and right to residence is one of the founding principles of the EU. If the Guardian thinks that those principles should only be exercised by people with great language skills and who won't choose to socialise with others of their own nationality, then it should say so.

All the Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians and other recent EU entrants I've ever met in London who arrive to work speak perfect English, yet they find their 'right to residence' constantly questioned.

Most of us Brits are just embarrassed by retired policemen who move to Spain and sit around eating shepherd's pie while reading the Daily Mail.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:40 PM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's something of a difference, both in learning opportunities and utility, between an Eastern European learning English, and a Brit learning an Eastern European language. English is probably one of the (if not the) most useful languages to know for those looking to travel and work outside their own countries. I live and work in a former Warsaw Pact country. Have done for several years. Aside from my day job, I also teach English as a second language a couple of nights a week, so I'm well aware of the reasons why the people who arrive in Britain speaking good English can, in fact, speak good English. Integrating seamlessly as an ersatz Brit isn't one of them.

How many opportunities would a retired policeman have to learn Spanish, prior to retiring in Spain? Spanish wasn't taught at any of the schools that I went to as a child.

Most of us Brits abroad, who've actually taken the opportunity to exercise our rights as EU citizens, are embarrassed by the Brits who sit at home in Blighty rattling on about how important integration is, yet the vast majority of whom see Europe as nothing more than a place to go for a couple of weeks to burn themselves bright pink and then spend the rest of the year boring people with tales of their multicultural adventures. We also know from personal experience how difficult it can be to integrate into a foreign culture.
posted by veedubya at 2:13 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]



How many opportunities would a retired policeman have to learn Spanish, prior to retiring in Spain? Spanish wasn't taught at any of the schools that I went to as a child.


The problem is not that none of them speak Spanish. The problem is that speaking Spanish, even the most basic fifteen words that would get you by in any Spanish-speaking village, seems to be so far beneath them, I mean why waste the time, these bloody foreigners need to learn to speak English anyway. I have never met a British expat who didn' t look down on the Spanish as backwards, lazy, garlic-smelling dimwits, even the ones who were married to spaniards.
posted by lollymccatburglar at 2:26 PM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


English is probably one of the (if not the) most useful languages to know for those looking to travel and work outside their own countries.

Yes but if there is any number 2 global language to English apart from Mandarin, then it's probably Spanish...

You make very fair points and I retract from dismissing all Brit emigrants as retired policemen. But from my personal experience, I had a comprehensive school education (i.e. no proper language tuition) but when living abroad in my 20s, the moments where I managed to communicate with people in their language are among the strongest memories I have. The majority of the Brits in Spain have made a conscious decision not to engage in this way, and it's due to their (relative) economic power that they're able to live like that. Unlike the Romanian builders that I recently employed who in all likelihood had a lower quality of education than a Brit policeman. That's not an individual policeman's fault, but it's just a crap fact nonetheless.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:35 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well, all I can tell you is that I've met quite a few who are the exact opposite of what you describe. So, at best, our anecdata cancel each other out.

I'm not saying that aren't Brits who fit the most horrible stereotypes. But what I am saying is that, in my personal experience, they're by far the minority. The problem is, it doesn't fit The Guardian's agenda to address the nuances. This incidentally, that many non-Brits that I talk to find mystifying: the way the British media seem to revel in portraying all Brits abroad as boorish, insular beer monsters, when just meeting a few Brits abroad gives the lie to that picture.
posted by veedubya at 2:39 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


From the article: "If Orihuela Costa were in the UK, its demographics – elderly, white, C1/C2s with a taste for bowls and golf – would make it a prime target for Ukip."

Can someone explain what "C1/C2s" refers to? Thanks.
posted by dhens at 2:39 PM on May 27, 2016


It's an advertising classification. The top level is A (professionals), B is managerial, C1 is tradespeople/working class employed, and then C2 and C3 reflect the lower levels of education and income in that group. Obviously nobody in advertising is interested in anyone lower than that in terms of income or social status.

It's pretty out of date in the new world of zero hours etc., it might not mean much any more (I work in advertising and you don't hear it used much) and the slack use of it reflects badly on the piece overall.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:44 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Coda Tronca, I agree that the lack of opportunities is lamentable.

Not to get all 'bring back national service', but I don't think that the UK/EU relationship would be in such a pitiful mess now if some effort had been made in the last 25 years to get average working/middle class kids out into Europe for a year or two. I could be way off, but it seems to me that the end of the Cold War had a big impact on the EU. Prior to the end of the 80s there was a steady stream of British military to and from the continent. The Brits got to see genuine Europeans at work and play, and the Europeans got to see what Brits are really like. Sure, it had its share of problems, but I think it was a net positive.

Nowadays, the experience from both sides is often through the lens of stag dos. That doesn't do anybody any favours.
posted by veedubya at 2:50 PM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Don't these British-in-Spain have iphones or is this totally false advertising?

SpeechTrans Worlds Best Voice Translator for iPhone
posted by bukvich at 3:49 PM on May 27, 2016


The Guardian prints an article saying multiculturalism is bad

That word 'multiculturalism', I do not think it means what you think it means.
posted by howfar at 4:41 PM on May 27, 2016


That word 'multiculturalism', I do not think it means what you think it means.

Wikipedia:
Multiculturalism describes the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group.

That is exactly the definition I expected to find.
posted by w0mbat at 3:57 PM on May 28, 2016


You didn't paste the bits about interculturalism that follow that.
posted by howfar at 4:14 PM on May 28, 2016


Multicultural is not simply the existence of isolated enclaves of culture within a jurisdiction. The idea that the Guardian or the liberal left in general support such a thing is about as accurate as "Jocasta" is funny.
posted by howfar at 4:18 PM on May 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


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