Use the Restroom Consistent with Who You are
June 7, 2016 7:52 AM Subscribe
NYC launches ad campaign reaffirming right to use bathrooms that are consistent with gender Identity. I thought we could use a bit of nice news. Linking to the NYC.gov page, because the comment sections on various news sites announcing this are a bit of a trip, and no one needs that shit.
The campaign ads and videos were created following audience research with transgender and cisgender New Yorkers and input from transgender community and legal advocates.
I'm always glad when campaigns like this take the time to actually talk to the group that they are advocating for. It wasn't too long ago that something like this would have been produced without that kind of input.
Good on NYC. I hope more campaigns like this rise up across the country for a while. Until they are not needed anymore.
posted by hippybear at 7:59 AM on June 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm always glad when campaigns like this take the time to actually talk to the group that they are advocating for. It wasn't too long ago that something like this would have been produced without that kind of input.
Good on NYC. I hope more campaigns like this rise up across the country for a while. Until they are not needed anymore.
posted by hippybear at 7:59 AM on June 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
I love this town sometimes.
posted by SansPoint at 8:37 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 8:37 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
IN NYC, IT'S THE LAW. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
posted by rebent at 8:58 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rebent at 8:58 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I saw this on the train last night and overheard two of my fellow straphangers discussing it. i was distressed to hear them say that they "werent sure this whole issue was a real problem" and even discuss the possibility that these bathroom bills are being proposed as a kind of false-flag operation by pro-trans/pro-equality forces to advance "their agenda."
I want to publicly apologize to trans and nonconforming people everywhere that in my very tired and slightly drunken state i did not take up the opportunity to correct these folks. bathroom choice/use may not be a problem for them, but that hardly means it isnt a real problem for anyone and the fact that their NYC bubble is so thick they cannot fathom that real hatred and prejudice are being written into law in other places bothered me a lot, but not enough to speak up, at least that time.
i also just returned from a college reunion weekend that included sharing a bathroom with a classmate i had known as a (very masculine) woman a decade ago - it was otherwise entirely un-noteworth except for being the first time that i had ever, for sure knowingly, shared a bathroom with a trans person (and only knowing this because i remember this persons pre-transition identity).
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:07 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I want to publicly apologize to trans and nonconforming people everywhere that in my very tired and slightly drunken state i did not take up the opportunity to correct these folks. bathroom choice/use may not be a problem for them, but that hardly means it isnt a real problem for anyone and the fact that their NYC bubble is so thick they cannot fathom that real hatred and prejudice are being written into law in other places bothered me a lot, but not enough to speak up, at least that time.
i also just returned from a college reunion weekend that included sharing a bathroom with a classmate i had known as a (very masculine) woman a decade ago - it was otherwise entirely un-noteworth except for being the first time that i had ever, for sure knowingly, shared a bathroom with a trans person (and only knowing this because i remember this persons pre-transition identity).
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:07 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I was in NYC a week ago and knowing that I had a law behind me, I felt like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders. I've never been harassed in a men's bathroom but it's really nice to use one without fear.
but damn, clean those things once in awhile
posted by AFABulous at 9:25 AM on June 7, 2016 [34 favorites]
but damn, clean those things once in awhile
posted by AFABulous at 9:25 AM on June 7, 2016 [34 favorites]
It seems really silly to have separate bathrooms at all. I guess it's just one of those cultural things that would be very hard to change.
posted by gnidan at 9:27 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by gnidan at 9:27 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
i also just returned from a college reunion weekend that included sharing a bathroom with a classmate i had known as a (very masculine) woman a decade ago - it was otherwise entirely un-noteworth except for being the first time that i had ever, for sure knowingly, shared a bathroom with a trans person (and only knowing this because i remember this persons pre-transition identity).
I know you mean well but we can do without these kind of anecdotes. Once I shared an elevator with a black man and nothing happened! He didn't even rob me or try to sell me drugs! See how insulting that sounds?
posted by AFABulous at 9:27 AM on June 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
I know you mean well but we can do without these kind of anecdotes. Once I shared an elevator with a black man and nothing happened! He didn't even rob me or try to sell me drugs! See how insulting that sounds?
posted by AFABulous at 9:27 AM on June 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
It seems really silly to have separate bathrooms at all. I guess it's just one of those cultural things that would be very hard to change.
I don't think a desire for privacy and freedom from assault is that silly though.
posted by zutalors! at 9:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think a desire for privacy and freedom from assault is that silly though.
posted by zutalors! at 9:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Once I shared an elevator with a black man and nothing happened! He didn't even rob me or try to sell me drugs! See how insulting that sounds?
Can we also avoid "just sub in black people" to make a point too though.
posted by zutalors! at 9:33 AM on June 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Can we also avoid "just sub in black people" to make a point too though.
posted by zutalors! at 9:33 AM on June 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
gender segregation is here for a long while yet.
right now the best thing to do is let people pee where it makes most sense based on the 500 or so things that go into making a sex and gender.
I'm glad NYC is doing this the right way. These posters are *exactly* what we need.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:35 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
right now the best thing to do is let people pee where it makes most sense based on the 500 or so things that go into making a sex and gender.
I'm glad NYC is doing this the right way. These posters are *exactly* what we need.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:35 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Jesus christ didn't we have a trans people peeing thread yesterday? Please wake me up when everyone's done publicly congratulating themselves for not assuming I'm a rapist.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:36 AM on June 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:36 AM on June 7, 2016 [21 favorites]
Can we also avoid "just sub in black people" to make a point too though.
Point taken and I apologize.
posted by AFABulous at 9:47 AM on June 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Point taken and I apologize.
posted by AFABulous at 9:47 AM on June 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Does anyone who knows more about NYC politics know why those particular legislators are up for quotes on the press release? Are these people generally involved on the issue, or go-to quotesters? It just seems kind of oddly random.
posted by corb at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2016
posted by corb at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2016
Chicago put the hammer down on this shit a few weeks ago for schools and libraries and other public accommodations. Use what you feel appropriate for you. *crickets*
Coincidentally, "Ryan" sent an email to the 200 people on my floor telling us that from here on out she is Lily and she understands that the pronoun thing might get slipped up and she would gently correct us as she realizes it might take us some time. And she would use the unisex bathroom for the time being. Brave individual and I'm proud of my coworkers.
This tolerance shit is so NOT hard.
posted by MarvinTheCat at 10:24 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Coincidentally, "Ryan" sent an email to the 200 people on my floor telling us that from here on out she is Lily and she understands that the pronoun thing might get slipped up and she would gently correct us as she realizes it might take us some time. And she would use the unisex bathroom for the time being. Brave individual and I'm proud of my coworkers.
This tolerance shit is so NOT hard.
posted by MarvinTheCat at 10:24 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
corb, Brad Hoylman, according to Wikipedia is "a former president of the Gay & Lesbian Independent Democrats, and a former board member of the Empire State Pride Agenda" and is gay himself. Daniel Dromm is also gay and his background includes organizing the first Pride parade in Queens. Johnson and Menchaca are also gay members of the City Council.
The Borough Presidents (Manhattan and Brooklyn) in the press release are the ones who are in the mayor's good graces, since the Bronx and Queens borough presidents are more rivals than allies right now.
And the Staten Island borough president is a Republican from the city's most conservative borough.
I don't have a great explanation for Félix W. Ortiz except maybe that he's the second highest ranking official in the State Assembly and a progressive Democrat from Brooklyn, while the highest ranking one, Bronx Assemblyman and now speaker Carl Heastie:
posted by Jahaza at 10:29 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Borough Presidents (Manhattan and Brooklyn) in the press release are the ones who are in the mayor's good graces, since the Bronx and Queens borough presidents are more rivals than allies right now.
And the Staten Island borough president is a Republican from the city's most conservative borough.
I don't have a great explanation for Félix W. Ortiz except maybe that he's the second highest ranking official in the State Assembly and a progressive Democrat from Brooklyn, while the highest ranking one, Bronx Assemblyman and now speaker Carl Heastie:
His district in Wakefield is home to thousands of middle-class, home-owning African-Americans who, mostly through their churches, can be socially conservative. Heastie voted against same-sex marriage in 2007, missed the vote in 2009, but in 2011 supported the bill that was eventually signed into law.So if they wanted State Assembly covered, he's probably the more likely to easily give a quote on it.
posted by Jahaza at 10:29 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
We're in the process of converting all the single-user restrooms in my building to gender-irrelevant spaces, so everyone will have a toilet to use with no fuss or confusion. I'm pleased with that, but annoyed that a simple and obvious change took more than a year....
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:30 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:30 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
linking to this because I already said why the restroom issue is not an issue in yesterday's trans peeing thread and I don't wanna type it all out again.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:31 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:31 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
And she would use the unisex bathroom for the time being.
I did that for a time but it was 100% out of fear & anxiety, and not because I gave one single shit about the comfort of my coworkers. If she was told to do that by HR, and you're close enough to her, you can let her know that OSHA regulations protect her.
posted by AFABulous at 10:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I did that for a time but it was 100% out of fear & anxiety, and not because I gave one single shit about the comfort of my coworkers. If she was told to do that by HR, and you're close enough to her, you can let her know that OSHA regulations protect her.
posted by AFABulous at 10:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
So here's a question for people whose workplaces (or wherever they frequent) turned gender-specific bathrooms into gender-neutral bathrooms: did the former men's room get cleaner, or the former women's room get filthier?
posted by griphus at 10:36 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by griphus at 10:36 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ahh sorry all, I could have posted this in the other thread instead of creating a new one, and thus squashing some repeat arguments, I missed it when I was searching the tags.
For what it's worth, in rush hour this morning, I overheard 2 suits talking about the ad this morning to the tune of being sad we needed ads to point out discrimination is illegal, but maybe the tourists will take the message home.
posted by larthegreat at 10:38 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
For what it's worth, in rush hour this morning, I overheard 2 suits talking about the ad this morning to the tune of being sad we needed ads to point out discrimination is illegal, but maybe the tourists will take the message home.
posted by larthegreat at 10:38 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
So here's a question for people whose workplaces (or wherever they frequent) turned gender-specific bathrooms into gender-neutral bathrooms: did the former men's room get cleaner, or the former women's room get filthier?
In my experience neither happens, as 99% of people continue using the bathroom they used before.
posted by Dysk at 10:39 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
In my experience neither happens, as 99% of people continue using the bathroom they used before.
posted by Dysk at 10:39 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
"i also just returned from a college reunion weekend that included sharing a bathroom with a classmate i had known as a (very masculine) woman a decade ago - it was otherwise entirely un-noteworth except for being the first time that i had ever, for sure knowingly, shared a bathroom with a trans person (and only knowing this because i remember this persons pre-transition identity).
I know you mean well but we can do without these kind of anecdotes. Once I shared an elevator with a black man and nothing happened! He didn't even rob me or try to sell me drugs! See how insulting that sounds?"
Apologies - I didn't mean for it to sound that way.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:40 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know you mean well but we can do without these kind of anecdotes. Once I shared an elevator with a black man and nothing happened! He didn't even rob me or try to sell me drugs! See how insulting that sounds?"
Apologies - I didn't mean for it to sound that way.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:40 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
At my institution, I am led to believe that students using all bathrooms show a roughly equal tendency toward strewing detritus around, and they all eat at the same dining halls, so the level of gastric distress is pretty uniform. The restrooms also seem to get cleaned equally; I suspect there will be little change.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:53 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:53 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
So here's a question for people whose workplaces (or wherever they frequent) turned gender-specific bathrooms into gender-neutral bathrooms: did the former men's room get cleaner, or the former women's room get filthier?
Those of us who've worked in food service and retail can tell you that as often as not, the women's room is filthier than the men's. All people (collectively) are pretty gross.
posted by explosion at 10:54 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Those of us who've worked in food service and retail can tell you that as often as not, the women's room is filthier than the men's. All people (collectively) are pretty gross.
posted by explosion at 10:54 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted; maybe better to just skip the sidebar about the ill-considered joke.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:54 AM on June 7, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:54 AM on June 7, 2016
the level of gastric distress is pretty uniform.
This sounds like the real problem, GaP hahahahaha
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:55 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
This sounds like the real problem, GaP hahahahaha
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:55 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Those of us who've worked in food service and retail can tell you that as often as not, the women's room is filthier than the men's. All people (collectively) are pretty gross.
posted by explosion
Eponysterical.
Hey, that's my first one!
posted by biogeo at 11:05 AM on June 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by explosion
Eponysterical.
Hey, that's my first one!
posted by biogeo at 11:05 AM on June 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I feel like I should have a keyboard macro for this:
Bathroom bills are not just about bathrooms, they're about access to employment, services, and education. They put property owners into the position of saying, "I'm sorry, you can't be here. You create a legal liability for us."
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:06 AM on June 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
Bathroom bills are not just about bathrooms, they're about access to employment, services, and education. They put property owners into the position of saying, "I'm sorry, you can't be here. You create a legal liability for us."
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:06 AM on June 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
Having used both, I can confirm that in general, women's rooms are definitely dirtier. Men do their thing and get out, and stalls see much less use. I do notice a LOT more water on the floor in the men's (it's not pee, it's by the sinks, and no one's dumb enough to pee in the sink at work).
The gender neutral, single user bathrooms at work have much nicer toilet paper, so even though they're farther away sometimes I use them depending on the task at hand.
posted by AFABulous at 11:07 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The gender neutral, single user bathrooms at work have much nicer toilet paper, so even though they're farther away sometimes I use them depending on the task at hand.
posted by AFABulous at 11:07 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well done NYC! Love the slogan.
It seems really silly to have separate bathrooms at all. I guess it's just one of those cultural things that would be very hard to change.
- I don't think a desire for privacy and freedom from assault is that silly though.
I’ve been in unisex bathrooms that were spacious and open and with enough proper separate stalls that neither of those concerns even entered my mind. They were awesome actually. And maybe they would actually promote a better culture and more respect all round between genders? Not to mention free up more space and reduce the queues at shows and concerts and big events. I’d sure rather have a common space than have to sneak into the men’s to avoid waiting an hour outside the ladies’ toilets.
And extra benefit, may sound too optimistic but one can always dream: removing those ugly ancient inventions known as urinals means even humans with penises would have to get used to sitting down to pee, and that’s a nice habit to take home too, isn’t it? We’d lose all those classic scenes in tv and movies where secret agents or coworkers conspire side by side while relieving themselves, but that’s a small price to pay for progress, I think.
posted by bitteschoen at 11:07 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
It seems really silly to have separate bathrooms at all. I guess it's just one of those cultural things that would be very hard to change.
- I don't think a desire for privacy and freedom from assault is that silly though.
I’ve been in unisex bathrooms that were spacious and open and with enough proper separate stalls that neither of those concerns even entered my mind. They were awesome actually. And maybe they would actually promote a better culture and more respect all round between genders? Not to mention free up more space and reduce the queues at shows and concerts and big events. I’d sure rather have a common space than have to sneak into the men’s to avoid waiting an hour outside the ladies’ toilets.
And extra benefit, may sound too optimistic but one can always dream: removing those ugly ancient inventions known as urinals means even humans with penises would have to get used to sitting down to pee, and that’s a nice habit to take home too, isn’t it? We’d lose all those classic scenes in tv and movies where secret agents or coworkers conspire side by side while relieving themselves, but that’s a small price to pay for progress, I think.
posted by bitteschoen at 11:07 AM on June 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Another few deleted. Please flag things rather than responding.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:10 AM on June 7, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:10 AM on June 7, 2016
We’d lose all those classic scenes in tv and movies where secret agents or coworkers conspire side by side while relieving themselves, but that’s a small price to pay for progress, I think.
You could totally do that in adjacent stalls. Lots of bonus opportunity to play with the fact that they can't see one another and so could be doing all sorts of surreptitious spy double cross stuff.
posted by Dysk at 11:11 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
You could totally do that in adjacent stalls. Lots of bonus opportunity to play with the fact that they can't see one another and so could be doing all sorts of surreptitious spy double cross stuff.
posted by Dysk at 11:11 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
No, sometimes I just want to adjust my clothes and put on make up or do whatever without men around, and not confined to a stall.
There are decent arguments for unisex bathrooms and I don't think they are entirely inappropriate, but segregated (by identity) bathrooms is not "silly."
posted by zutalors! at 11:11 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are decent arguments for unisex bathrooms and I don't think they are entirely inappropriate, but segregated (by identity) bathrooms is not "silly."
posted by zutalors! at 11:11 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's some cool stuff from the nyc.gov website:
Myths vs facts:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/downloads/pdf/MythFact.pdf
Gender ID 101 info card:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/GenderID_Card2015.pdf
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:14 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Myths vs facts:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/downloads/pdf/MythFact.pdf
Gender ID 101 info card:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/downloads/pdf/publications/GenderID_Card2015.pdf
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:14 AM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
And extra benefit, may sound too optimistic but one can always dream: removing those ugly ancient inventions known as urinals means even humans with penises would have to get used to sitting down to pee, and that’s a nice habit to take home too, isn’t it?
Well, but urinals use significantly less water than regular toilets, and modern ones are actually waterless, which is pretty great for the environment. If you're capable of using one, whatever your gender, it's nice to have one available for that reason if nothing else.
posted by biogeo at 11:15 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, but urinals use significantly less water than regular toilets, and modern ones are actually waterless, which is pretty great for the environment. If you're capable of using one, whatever your gender, it's nice to have one available for that reason if nothing else.
posted by biogeo at 11:15 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't think a desire for privacy and freedom from assault is that silly though.
But men assault women all over the place though. Separate bathrooms doesn't stop them. I'm not sure why it would additionally encourage them. Privacy - I have never ever seen anyone's genitalia in a bathroom in 40 years. I asked my urinal-user friends and almost none of them have either.
posted by AFABulous at 11:16 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
But men assault women all over the place though. Separate bathrooms doesn't stop them. I'm not sure why it would additionally encourage them. Privacy - I have never ever seen anyone's genitalia in a bathroom in 40 years. I asked my urinal-user friends and almost none of them have either.
posted by AFABulous at 11:16 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not going to keep arguing the point but it's not about "seeing genitalia" at all for me.
posted by zutalors! at 11:18 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zutalors! at 11:18 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Privacy - I have never ever seen anyone's genitalia in a bathroom in 40 years. I asked my urinal-user friends and almost none of them have either.
Privacy isn't just about genitals. Maybe you want an area to be able to retreat from leering men, or have somewhere to fix your makeup it whatever without a bunch of dudes looking over your shoulder.
posted by Dysk at 11:18 AM on June 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Privacy isn't just about genitals. Maybe you want an area to be able to retreat from leering men, or have somewhere to fix your makeup it whatever without a bunch of dudes looking over your shoulder.
posted by Dysk at 11:18 AM on June 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yes, what Dysk said.
posted by zutalors! at 11:18 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zutalors! at 11:18 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Privacy - I have never ever seen anyone's genitalia in a bathroom in 40 years. I asked my urinal-user friends and almost none of them have either.
Yeah, but that guy who was murmuring into his cell phone earpiece at the non-barriered urinal next to mine in ONT airport triggered my shy bladder so badly I had to seek out a stall. "Yeah" "Yes, of course" "Yeah" Jeebus, just put your call on hold while you pee! *creepy*
posted by hippybear at 11:19 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but that guy who was murmuring into his cell phone earpiece at the non-barriered urinal next to mine in ONT airport triggered my shy bladder so badly I had to seek out a stall. "Yeah" "Yes, of course" "Yeah" Jeebus, just put your call on hold while you pee! *creepy*
posted by hippybear at 11:19 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fair enough - it's different for me being a trans guy, I really don't care who's in my bathroom.
posted by AFABulous at 11:20 AM on June 7, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 11:20 AM on June 7, 2016
It does seem like those of us who present masculinely are less impacted by the loss of that sort of space which would come with a transition to non-gendered bathrooms. For those of you who are concerned, would a cultural norm of adding "freshening up rooms" or something similar alleviate the impact of the loss of that gendered space? Or is there still something fundamental about the gendered bathroom that would be lost? I think there's a lot of similar ways that adding more non-bathroom private spaces into public spaces (e.g., lactation rooms) would be good for everyone.
I'm not expecting such a thing is likely, but I'm curious how you'd feel about it.
posted by biogeo at 11:28 AM on June 7, 2016
I'm not expecting such a thing is likely, but I'm curious how you'd feel about it.
posted by biogeo at 11:28 AM on June 7, 2016
Why would that be advantageous over having gendered (and gender neutral) bathrooms?
posted by Dysk at 11:30 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:30 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am more presently concerned about cis people not freaking the fuck out about trans people having genitalia they relieve their bladders through.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't want to speak for trans women, but it seems off to me that rather than say, "use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for your identity" we would want to say "away with gender segregated bathrooms altogether!" As a cis woman, I just want to be inclusive to all women, and it feels wrong to upend an entire system rather than adjust our expectations/assumptions.
No, "freshening rooms" would not make any difference.
posted by zutalors! at 11:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
No, "freshening rooms" would not make any difference.
posted by zutalors! at 11:32 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you wanna redo the way the world is contructed around gender, knock yerself out but don't do something that drastic because a woman who had a different shaped peeing organ needed to go the bathroom.
That just feels like we are making this into a way huge BFD when it needn't be.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:35 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
That just feels like we are making this into a way huge BFD when it needn't be.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:35 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the third hand, "use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for your identity" isn't all that helpful when your identity is non-binary.
posted by Shmuel510 at 11:37 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Shmuel510 at 11:37 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the third hand, "use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for your identity" isn't all that helpful when your identity is non-binary.
I reckon the protocol in that case would/should be "use whichever has the shorter line."
posted by fifthrider at 11:41 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I reckon the protocol in that case would/should be "use whichever has the shorter line."
posted by fifthrider at 11:41 AM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, maybe it's not advantageous, that's why I'm asking. From an engineering/resource use perspective, adding additional restrooms with plumbing to public spaces which may be underutilized when there's a gender bias among the public using them (e.g., sporting or concert venues) apparently is wasteful. I know both men and women who advocate for ungendered bathrooms, and a trans male friend of mine used to talk about what a relief (no pun intended) it was when there was a unisex bathroom that he could use just so he didn't have to worry about things. Like I said, I absolutely recognize that the loss of gendered space would disproportionately impact women. Anyway, I feel like I've caused offense with the question that I didn't intend, so I'll drop it. I'd just like to emphasize that I'm absolutely in favor of people getting to use whichever bathroom matches their gender identity, and I'm glad to see NYC officially staking out this position.
posted by biogeo at 11:43 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by biogeo at 11:43 AM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, if you notice a men's room is underutilised and a women's has constant queues, you could just make the women's bigger than the men's, or vice versa. And a "freshening room" would need at least some plumbing for sinks anyway.
posted by Dysk at 11:48 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:48 AM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for your identity isn't all that helpful when your identity is non-binary.
"Use the bathroom you feel is appropriate" is really all it comes down to.
I spent 1.5 of the past 3.5 years NB. It's harder to decide to which restroom to use, but it's not the end of the world. It usually came down to "is there a family room?" followed by calculating "where am I least likely to catch hell?" Then going in and hoping not to catch too much grief. If federal laws stated that it was okay for me to choose whichever then I would have felt a lot more comfortable in those earlier years when being non-binary felt more right to me.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:52 AM on June 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
"Use the bathroom you feel is appropriate" is really all it comes down to.
I spent 1.5 of the past 3.5 years NB. It's harder to decide to which restroom to use, but it's not the end of the world. It usually came down to "is there a family room?" followed by calculating "where am I least likely to catch hell?" Then going in and hoping not to catch too much grief. If federal laws stated that it was okay for me to choose whichever then I would have felt a lot more comfortable in those earlier years when being non-binary felt more right to me.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:52 AM on June 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's about to get real, folks.
I don't even know how to parse this yet.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:29 PM on June 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't even know how to parse this yet.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:29 PM on June 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
More unisex single-stall bathrooms. I saw one recently that said "either" but that seems to take into consideration two gender identifications. Maybe it should say "any/all"? I'm more concerned with trans people in men's rooms, since there's a large precedent of cismen beating and raping trans people, though this behavior isn't exclusive to restrooms, of course.
posted by serenity_now at 12:40 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by serenity_now at 12:40 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I saw one recently that said "either" but that seems to take into consideration two gender identifications. Maybe it should say "any/all"?
"Toilet" or "restroom" both work pretty well.
posted by Dysk at 12:42 PM on June 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
"Toilet" or "restroom" both work pretty well.
posted by Dysk at 12:42 PM on June 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
My building has the luxury of a few single-user restrooms per floor -- they are roomy enough that one could adjust/change clothes with relative comfort, have mirrors for makeup, applying sunscreen, etc, and converting them to gender-irrelevant serves not only our trans and non-binary population, but makes more toilets available to women, who I often see lining up outside a single-user woman's room while a perfectly good single-user men's' room stands empty.
Multi-user "general use" restrooms seen a more complicated, but I'll be interested to see how our new plan works out.
In other news, autocorrect keeps trying to change "restroom" to "atheism" there's probably a message there....
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:03 PM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Multi-user "general use" restrooms seen a more complicated, but I'll be interested to see how our new plan works out.
In other news, autocorrect keeps trying to change "restroom" to "atheism" there's probably a message there....
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:03 PM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Toilet" or "restroom" both work pretty well.
Yes! I much much prefer language that avoids gender altogether when practical. For example, while "chairperson" is better than "chairman/woman" or "chair(wo)man," "chair" is simpler and more direct. "Toilet" and "restroom" (or a icon) avoid the whole problem and thereby stress the irrelevance of gender to the issue.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:10 PM on June 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes! I much much prefer language that avoids gender altogether when practical. For example, while "chairperson" is better than "chairman/woman" or "chair(wo)man," "chair" is simpler and more direct. "Toilet" and "restroom" (or a icon) avoid the whole problem and thereby stress the irrelevance of gender to the issue.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:10 PM on June 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Annika Cicada's linked comment from the other thread really should be read here. Getting rid of gender-segregated restrooms as a cultural thing is likely going to be a multi-generational project. For cis people to not freak out (within reason) about the person in the stall next to them is more reasonable.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:23 PM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:23 PM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Man.
So, yesterday, a close family friend of mine, who lives in NYC, was returning from NC after helping pack up her wife's dad's house, and she got stopped in the bathroom at the airport by a cleaning lady for not looking enough like a woman. (She's tall and has short hair and wears pants and no makeup, but she is a cis woman.)
The cleaning lady apparently barely spoke English and was just doing her job and following the shitty law (and when my friend refused to leave the bathroom, the lady didn't do anything more), so my friend isn't angry with her per se, but she's fucking furious at the fact that it happened. Especially because this was in Charlotte, the city that passed the nondiscrimination ordinance that prompted the legislature to pass HB2 in the first place - if the city had been allowed to do what it was trying to do in the first place, what the cleaning lady did would have been illegal. My friend has filed a complaint (without naming the cleaning lady specifically).
I'm so fucking angry and ashamed on behalf of my home state. And I'm appreciating my new city all the more today. And I'm hoping that someday soon NC will be yanked back out of the hands of the assholes who have done this to it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:29 PM on June 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
So, yesterday, a close family friend of mine, who lives in NYC, was returning from NC after helping pack up her wife's dad's house, and she got stopped in the bathroom at the airport by a cleaning lady for not looking enough like a woman. (She's tall and has short hair and wears pants and no makeup, but she is a cis woman.)
The cleaning lady apparently barely spoke English and was just doing her job and following the shitty law (and when my friend refused to leave the bathroom, the lady didn't do anything more), so my friend isn't angry with her per se, but she's fucking furious at the fact that it happened. Especially because this was in Charlotte, the city that passed the nondiscrimination ordinance that prompted the legislature to pass HB2 in the first place - if the city had been allowed to do what it was trying to do in the first place, what the cleaning lady did would have been illegal. My friend has filed a complaint (without naming the cleaning lady specifically).
I'm so fucking angry and ashamed on behalf of my home state. And I'm appreciating my new city all the more today. And I'm hoping that someday soon NC will be yanked back out of the hands of the assholes who have done this to it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:29 PM on June 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
My building has the luxury of a few single-user restrooms per floor -- they are roomy enough that one could adjust/change clothes with relative comfort, have mirrors for makeup, applying sunscreen, etc, and converting them to gender-irrelevant serves not only our trans and non-binary population, but makes more toilets available to women, who I often see lining up outside a single-user woman's room while a perfectly good single-user men's' room stands empty.
Same here, and I think this is a benefit for everyone, regardless of gender. I often have to make a dash to the other end of the building because the single-occupancy bathroom near my office labeled "men" is occupied, while the adjacent one labeled "women" is empty, even though they are otherwise identical. Since they're single occupancy rooms and the doors lock, it seems like a win for everyone to just make them bathrooms rather than a "men's room" and "women's room."
posted by biogeo at 1:38 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Same here, and I think this is a benefit for everyone, regardless of gender. I often have to make a dash to the other end of the building because the single-occupancy bathroom near my office labeled "men" is occupied, while the adjacent one labeled "women" is empty, even though they are otherwise identical. Since they're single occupancy rooms and the doors lock, it seems like a win for everyone to just make them bathrooms rather than a "men's room" and "women's room."
posted by biogeo at 1:38 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Annika Cicada's linked comment from the other thread really should be read here.
I'll paste it here, with all the typos and bad grammar intact hahahaha.
"Okay, I thought about it last night and this is kinda where I feel about the whole bathroom thang and why it just needs to be dropped.
What cis people feel when first confronted with the bathroom question I *think* feels very similar to how I as a trans person felt when I was first confronted with no longer able to use the men's room (because let me tell you, the stares were getting really bad). The feeling is one of anxiety and panic, the world feeling like it's turning upside down, the fear is real. It is scary to confront our societies rules around "where girls and boys are allowed".
I understand that fear. I don't want ANYONE to have to feel it. Cis, Trans, whoever.
Cis people fear: "If I can't reliably tell men from women then how to we enforce gender segregation and keep women safe from men seeking to harm?"
Trans people fear: "I need to use the bathroom where I feel the safest and I can't reliably tell which restroom that is."
So how do we alleviate these fears for *everyone*?
Well, we need to break it down a little.
The fear we *all* feel is abstracted to: "I can't reliably tell x from y anymore, I just want to feel safe".
That means both cis AND trans are experiencing a very similar feeling around the bathrooms, a fear that I would say is transnormative, because for trans people that fear goes WAY WAY WAY WAY beyond just the freaking damn restroom. Trans people feel that *EVERYWHERE*. Because that fear of the gendered and sexed world breaking down is baked into the trans experience, it is IMO a large part of what makes "the trans experience". Ergo, bathroom panic is a transnormative experience that cis people are having to confront and feel. So cis people who have "the bathroom fear", welcome to trans personhood.
So what the in the ever loving fuck do we do about this?
My preference is that *NO ONE* feels bathroom fear. I don't want cis people to have to live with the bathroom fear and I don't want trans people to have to worry about cis people who have the bathroom fear acting rudely or violently towards trans people just trying to get by in the world.
I believe the best way to accomplish this is for cis people to stop thinking about "what if I can't tell x from y anymore" and just go back to the firmer ground of cis personhood. Trans people will probably never feel all that secure navigating sex and gender in the world because the biological dominance of the cis majority, so I feel that if cis people remain on firm ground at least the transnormative panic and anxiety is not magnifying in the world.
So why do cis people need to stop being afraid then?
Here's the deal: Cisnormativity is a *HUGE MASSIVE* force, like, cis people, you can't even begin to realize just how much force and power cisnormativity exerts on *literally everything we do as a species*. That's why a single issue where the gendered and sexed rules go into liminiality can cause what looks like to me an almost segregationist split in this country. Cisnormativity demands SO FUCKING MUCH. Trust me please, it's like a crushing atmosphere you can't escape when your gender "slips out" of cisnormativity.
Since cisnormativity is such a huge overwhelming force, NO ONE is going to go traipse through transnormativity for the larfs. There's a reason why gender nonconforming (trans incl.) people worry so much and struggle about all this, because it's not just some random ass thing you up and decide one day. Cisnormativity DOMINATES. Cis people, the gender construct you live in *crushes* gender NC ppl. Literally no one is going to just one day decide to be one gender and the next day decide to be another. Cisnormativity will never allow that.
So basically that means cis people, you can just forget about the bathroom thing and go back into cisnormativity. You can literally stop worrying about it. Cisnormativity protects you.
Once you all stop worrying about it, trans people can have one less thing to worry about as well! And one basic part of our overall life anxiety "because trans" is lessened because now the anxiety of "which bathroom best suits my gender" does not have the additional fear of worrying about wether or not cis people are having a similar gender liminal freakout.
So to wrap it all up: cis people, get out of my trans experience and go back to being cis."
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:44 PM on June 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'll paste it here, with all the typos and bad grammar intact hahahaha.
"Okay, I thought about it last night and this is kinda where I feel about the whole bathroom thang and why it just needs to be dropped.
What cis people feel when first confronted with the bathroom question I *think* feels very similar to how I as a trans person felt when I was first confronted with no longer able to use the men's room (because let me tell you, the stares were getting really bad). The feeling is one of anxiety and panic, the world feeling like it's turning upside down, the fear is real. It is scary to confront our societies rules around "where girls and boys are allowed".
I understand that fear. I don't want ANYONE to have to feel it. Cis, Trans, whoever.
Cis people fear: "If I can't reliably tell men from women then how to we enforce gender segregation and keep women safe from men seeking to harm?"
Trans people fear: "I need to use the bathroom where I feel the safest and I can't reliably tell which restroom that is."
So how do we alleviate these fears for *everyone*?
Well, we need to break it down a little.
The fear we *all* feel is abstracted to: "I can't reliably tell x from y anymore, I just want to feel safe".
That means both cis AND trans are experiencing a very similar feeling around the bathrooms, a fear that I would say is transnormative, because for trans people that fear goes WAY WAY WAY WAY beyond just the freaking damn restroom. Trans people feel that *EVERYWHERE*. Because that fear of the gendered and sexed world breaking down is baked into the trans experience, it is IMO a large part of what makes "the trans experience". Ergo, bathroom panic is a transnormative experience that cis people are having to confront and feel. So cis people who have "the bathroom fear", welcome to trans personhood.
So what the in the ever loving fuck do we do about this?
My preference is that *NO ONE* feels bathroom fear. I don't want cis people to have to live with the bathroom fear and I don't want trans people to have to worry about cis people who have the bathroom fear acting rudely or violently towards trans people just trying to get by in the world.
I believe the best way to accomplish this is for cis people to stop thinking about "what if I can't tell x from y anymore" and just go back to the firmer ground of cis personhood. Trans people will probably never feel all that secure navigating sex and gender in the world because the biological dominance of the cis majority, so I feel that if cis people remain on firm ground at least the transnormative panic and anxiety is not magnifying in the world.
So why do cis people need to stop being afraid then?
Here's the deal: Cisnormativity is a *HUGE MASSIVE* force, like, cis people, you can't even begin to realize just how much force and power cisnormativity exerts on *literally everything we do as a species*. That's why a single issue where the gendered and sexed rules go into liminiality can cause what looks like to me an almost segregationist split in this country. Cisnormativity demands SO FUCKING MUCH. Trust me please, it's like a crushing atmosphere you can't escape when your gender "slips out" of cisnormativity.
Since cisnormativity is such a huge overwhelming force, NO ONE is going to go traipse through transnormativity for the larfs. There's a reason why gender nonconforming (trans incl.) people worry so much and struggle about all this, because it's not just some random ass thing you up and decide one day. Cisnormativity DOMINATES. Cis people, the gender construct you live in *crushes* gender NC ppl. Literally no one is going to just one day decide to be one gender and the next day decide to be another. Cisnormativity will never allow that.
So basically that means cis people, you can just forget about the bathroom thing and go back into cisnormativity. You can literally stop worrying about it. Cisnormativity protects you.
Once you all stop worrying about it, trans people can have one less thing to worry about as well! And one basic part of our overall life anxiety "because trans" is lessened because now the anxiety of "which bathroom best suits my gender" does not have the additional fear of worrying about wether or not cis people are having a similar gender liminal freakout.
So to wrap it all up: cis people, get out of my trans experience and go back to being cis."
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:44 PM on June 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
removing those ugly ancient inventions known as urinals means even humans with penises would have to get used to sitting down to pee…
What? No. If there's no urinal (like in residential bathrooms, for example) or if all the urinals are occupied, men generally just stand up and pee into the toilet. If you're lucky they'll raise the seat first, but not always. Even if they do though, there's a lot more mess potential when the target is three feet away instead of six inches, so urinals help keep bathrooms clean. They also pack more closely than stalls and allow users to quickly eliminate and get out of the way, increasing overall restroom throughput considerably.
In a hypothetical all-unisex-bathroom world, it would still make sense to have urinals. There'd just be about half as many per bathroom, all else being equal.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:45 PM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
What? No. If there's no urinal (like in residential bathrooms, for example) or if all the urinals are occupied, men generally just stand up and pee into the toilet. If you're lucky they'll raise the seat first, but not always. Even if they do though, there's a lot more mess potential when the target is three feet away instead of six inches, so urinals help keep bathrooms clean. They also pack more closely than stalls and allow users to quickly eliminate and get out of the way, increasing overall restroom throughput considerably.
In a hypothetical all-unisex-bathroom world, it would still make sense to have urinals. There'd just be about half as many per bathroom, all else being equal.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 1:45 PM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is awesome. My workplace has had "all gender, multi-use" bathrooms for the whole office for a few months now. You just use whatever bathroom is closest to your office. It's been fine.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:01 PM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:01 PM on June 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Aaahh, I know Charlie! Squeeeee!!!
posted by the_blizz at 2:11 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the_blizz at 2:11 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I often have to make a dash to the other end of the building because the single-occupancy bathroom near my office labeled "men" is occupied, while the adjacent one labeled "women" is empty, even though they are otherwise identical.
Wait, why wouldn't you just use the women's? I'm a guy and if there are two single-user bathrooms next to each other, labelled differently, I will just use the women's if the men's is occupied. I will feel slightly bad if a woman is waiting for it when I get out, but I would have had to wait too. I won't use multiple-occupancy women's rooms because I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. (Men can just get the fuck over it.)
posted by AFABulous at 3:27 PM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait, why wouldn't you just use the women's? I'm a guy and if there are two single-user bathrooms next to each other, labelled differently, I will just use the women's if the men's is occupied. I will feel slightly bad if a woman is waiting for it when I get out, but I would have had to wait too. I won't use multiple-occupancy women's rooms because I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. (Men can just get the fuck over it.)
posted by AFABulous at 3:27 PM on June 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I dunno, some level of anxiety at the thought that a woman would be waiting to enter when I got out and feel uncomfortable and/or that I'm a creeper. Or maybe it's same reason I'll wait at a red light for five minutes in the middle of the night even when there's literally no traffic around.
posted by biogeo at 3:49 PM on June 7, 2016
posted by biogeo at 3:49 PM on June 7, 2016
I mean, if you notice a men's room is underutilised and a women's has constant queues, you could just make the women's bigger than the men's, or vice versa.
In theory, the building code in a lot of places requires there be N times as many toilets in a women's bathroom as in a men's. Why no one has figured out sufficiently large N, I don't know. (Then again, whoever designed most of the buildings at the university where I went to grad school thought there was no need for a bathroom that could be used by more than two people at once. So apparently building codes are sometimes really dumb.)
posted by hoyland at 5:09 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
In theory, the building code in a lot of places requires there be N times as many toilets in a women's bathroom as in a men's. Why no one has figured out sufficiently large N, I don't know. (Then again, whoever designed most of the buildings at the university where I went to grad school thought there was no need for a bathroom that could be used by more than two people at once. So apparently building codes are sometimes really dumb.)
posted by hoyland at 5:09 PM on June 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think NYC (most cities) has a hard enough time preventing people from peeing in public places; any bathroom would be an improvement.
To me, the bathroom is a symbol for spaces in which we feel the most vulnerable. And that's why it's become a battleground. But goddamnit, if it isn't the weirdest battleground ever . 50 years from now, will we be telling our kids about the great toilet sit-ins of the '10s (the hemorrhoids!).
Seriously, I feel whatever crap I get for being a brown religious minority lady is nothing in comparison to what I see being hurled at transgender folks today. I feel very helpless. :/
posted by bluefly at 6:18 PM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
To me, the bathroom is a symbol for spaces in which we feel the most vulnerable. And that's why it's become a battleground. But goddamnit, if it isn't the weirdest battleground ever . 50 years from now, will we be telling our kids about the great toilet sit-ins of the '10s (the hemorrhoids!).
Seriously, I feel whatever crap I get for being a brown religious minority lady is nothing in comparison to what I see being hurled at transgender folks today. I feel very helpless. :/
posted by bluefly at 6:18 PM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I get kind of frustrated when the talk of this goes to multi-stall unisex bathrooms. Men still think nothing of leering, invading personal space, making covert and overt sexual comments in public, on a bus, in the workspace, etc.. I don't know why people think that wouldn't happen in a bathroom. I can't wait for the "Why don't you want to talk to me? I just think you're pretty!" while I try to pee.
Transwomen I have no problem with. Single stall bathrooms are awesome. I don't want cis males in my bathroom. Context does matter. I could probably deal with it in an environment where norms were discussed and infractions dealt with like an office or academic setting. But, on the other hand, men hold power and women-only bathrooms are, among their many uses, a historically safe space to cry away from the men, to take a breath and deal with what your male boss has just handed down and to bond over the inherent shittiness of the patriarchy.
Anyway, seriously, yay New York! I think this is a great thing and I hope it improves many people's lives and feelings of inclusion and safety.
posted by amanda at 8:58 PM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Transwomen I have no problem with. Single stall bathrooms are awesome. I don't want cis males in my bathroom. Context does matter. I could probably deal with it in an environment where norms were discussed and infractions dealt with like an office or academic setting. But, on the other hand, men hold power and women-only bathrooms are, among their many uses, a historically safe space to cry away from the men, to take a breath and deal with what your male boss has just handed down and to bond over the inherent shittiness of the patriarchy.
Anyway, seriously, yay New York! I think this is a great thing and I hope it improves many people's lives and feelings of inclusion and safety.
posted by amanda at 8:58 PM on June 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Trans women. With a space. We're women, not sine word third category, transwomen. This applies doubly if you're remembering the space whoever you use cis.
posted by Dysk at 1:24 AM on June 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:24 AM on June 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
In a hypothetical all-unisex-bathroom world, it would still make sense to have urinals. There'd just be about half as many per bathroom, all else being equal.
I’ve never seen them in unisex bathrooms I’ve used, they don’t really seem to make sense for all the purposes of unisex bathrooms - to have common facilities used by all regardless of gender and not discriminate and be more practical and convenient for everyone, and optimize space, simplify planning, etc. - you’d have to create separate areas and stalls just for them, and then you’d be complicating the layout and replicating gender segregation! What’s the point?
They may be using less water than toilets as was mentioned earlier in the thread, that’s a valid point but I see that more as an argument in favour of improving resource consumption in bathrooms in general, for everyone, than for keeping a set of facilities that only one part of the population can use - that kind of defeats the lower resource consumption.
As for the hygiene aspect and the mess potential: eh how I wish we could blame that exclusively on men, believe me! but nah, aside of making fun of gender stereotypes, sadly in reality there's a lot of mess potential in women’s bathrooms too. Using public toilets responsibly with a little consideration for the next person who comes in is a universal question of manners, not gender.
I get kind of frustrated when the talk of this goes to multi-stall unisex bathrooms.
I understand but it’s inevitable, the trend towards unisex bathrooms is growing, it’s not going to go away, it seems to have a lot of advantages from a functional perspective that are an important consideration when planning new facilities and buildings, and they have proven a successful solution where they’ve already been adopted. So that’s why the discussion turns to that. They can also be designed in a way that considers privacy and health and safety concerns, for all the people using them. In the meantime, for the present, for the existing facilities of course it also makes sense to tell people "use the restroom consistent with who you are".
Those two approaches are not mutually exclusive.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:02 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I’ve never seen them in unisex bathrooms I’ve used, they don’t really seem to make sense for all the purposes of unisex bathrooms - to have common facilities used by all regardless of gender and not discriminate and be more practical and convenient for everyone, and optimize space, simplify planning, etc. - you’d have to create separate areas and stalls just for them, and then you’d be complicating the layout and replicating gender segregation! What’s the point?
They may be using less water than toilets as was mentioned earlier in the thread, that’s a valid point but I see that more as an argument in favour of improving resource consumption in bathrooms in general, for everyone, than for keeping a set of facilities that only one part of the population can use - that kind of defeats the lower resource consumption.
As for the hygiene aspect and the mess potential: eh how I wish we could blame that exclusively on men, believe me! but nah, aside of making fun of gender stereotypes, sadly in reality there's a lot of mess potential in women’s bathrooms too. Using public toilets responsibly with a little consideration for the next person who comes in is a universal question of manners, not gender.
I get kind of frustrated when the talk of this goes to multi-stall unisex bathrooms.
I understand but it’s inevitable, the trend towards unisex bathrooms is growing, it’s not going to go away, it seems to have a lot of advantages from a functional perspective that are an important consideration when planning new facilities and buildings, and they have proven a successful solution where they’ve already been adopted. So that’s why the discussion turns to that. They can also be designed in a way that considers privacy and health and safety concerns, for all the people using them. In the meantime, for the present, for the existing facilities of course it also makes sense to tell people "use the restroom consistent with who you are".
Those two approaches are not mutually exclusive.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:02 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
unisex bathrooms shouldn't be a problem. Most of us shouldn't mind who we're sharing a bathroom with. Etiquette usually has us doing our thing and leaving with a bar minimum if any of interaction with our fellow bathroom users. The hoopla is way overblown.
However the issue is that it is difficult to single out bathrooms. If bathrooms are unisexual then showers, clothing stores dressing rooms, lockers, and the rest should be as well.
Having a woman and a man using the same bathroom with barely a nod at each other isn't much of an issue. Sharing a shower is something different. Not saying it shouldn't happen, just pointing out that the problems with sharing a room where people are naked is more difficult to overcome than sharing a room where we barely look at each other and strive to be in and out quickly.
Still I imagine we can work that out socially as well. 99.99% of the time it won't be a problem. While there will be some people going into the shower for giggles, on a dare, or other reasons, most will use the shower of the gender they identify as.
Also, I would imagine that the more unisexual showers and baths we use the more it becomes common enough that sneaking into the girls shower ala Porky's won't be a thing. It will become common enough that we don't look at the opposite gender any more than we do the same gender - no more than homosexuals use the shower to check out others.
The more common it becomes the less "forbidden fruit" it becomes.
posted by 2manyusernames at 5:44 AM on June 8, 2016
However the issue is that it is difficult to single out bathrooms. If bathrooms are unisexual then showers, clothing stores dressing rooms, lockers, and the rest should be as well.
Having a woman and a man using the same bathroom with barely a nod at each other isn't much of an issue. Sharing a shower is something different. Not saying it shouldn't happen, just pointing out that the problems with sharing a room where people are naked is more difficult to overcome than sharing a room where we barely look at each other and strive to be in and out quickly.
Still I imagine we can work that out socially as well. 99.99% of the time it won't be a problem. While there will be some people going into the shower for giggles, on a dare, or other reasons, most will use the shower of the gender they identify as.
Also, I would imagine that the more unisexual showers and baths we use the more it becomes common enough that sneaking into the girls shower ala Porky's won't be a thing. It will become common enough that we don't look at the opposite gender any more than we do the same gender - no more than homosexuals use the shower to check out others.
The more common it becomes the less "forbidden fruit" it becomes.
posted by 2manyusernames at 5:44 AM on June 8, 2016
Etiquette usually has us doing our thing and leaving with a bar minimum if any of interaction with our fellow bathroom users. The hoopla is way overblown.
This is not universal etiquette for the women's in the way that it is for the men's.
posted by Dysk at 6:02 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is not universal etiquette for the women's in the way that it is for the men's.
posted by Dysk at 6:02 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
2manyusernames: Having a woman and a man using the same bathroom with barely a nod at each other isn't much of an issue. Sharing a shower is something different.
Not really, if there are shower stalls that are big enough for people to undress and dress in.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:05 AM on June 8, 2016
Not really, if there are shower stalls that are big enough for people to undress and dress in.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:05 AM on June 8, 2016
Sure, individual showers would lessen the problem of voyeurism. However it would be extremely expensive. Too expensive for the benefit.
posted by 2manyusernames at 6:10 AM on June 8, 2016
posted by 2manyusernames at 6:10 AM on June 8, 2016
If bathrooms are unisexual then showers, clothing stores dressing rooms, lockers, and the rest should be as well.
No, and slippery-slope arguments have been deployed to slow progress on LGBT issues for generations.
posted by Etrigan at 6:11 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, and slippery-slope arguments have been deployed to slow progress on LGBT issues for generations.
posted by Etrigan at 6:11 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The bathroom issue is not about the shape of genitalia it's about rape culture.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:12 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:12 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Stop putting the burden of solving rape culture on the back of trans and gender NC people.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:13 AM on June 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:13 AM on June 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Sure, individual showers would lessen the problem of voyeurism. However it would be extremely expensive. Too expensive for the benefit.
Not too expensive according to the people who designed and built most of the communal showers I've ever used.
posted by Dysk at 6:15 AM on June 8, 2016
Not too expensive according to the people who designed and built most of the communal showers I've ever used.
posted by Dysk at 6:15 AM on June 8, 2016
2manyusernames: Sure, individual showers would lessen the problem of voyeurism. However it would be extremely expensive. Too expensive for the benefit.
It's doable for for toilets, but extremely expensive for showers? I'm having trouble buying that.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:16 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's doable for for toilets, but extremely expensive for showers? I'm having trouble buying that.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:16 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's doable for for toilets, but extremely expensive for showers? I'm having trouble buying that
to be honest I was just assuming it would be expensive. I am starting to see I may have exaggerated its expense
posted by 2manyusernames at 6:28 AM on June 8, 2016
Stop putting the burden of solving rape culture on the back of trans and gender NC people.
Yes!
Too many people in this discussion are taking it for granted that this issue is primarily about bathrooms. Bathrooms and concerns about rape culture (which conservatives ignore when it comes to cis athletes) are a cultural and legal lever for justifying discrimination. Utopian ideals about renovating all the bathrooms don't do squat regarding the current bills and lawsuits.
Not that we shouldn't dream the improbable dream. But we need to be quite clear that the conservative agenda this year is to throw up legal barriers to any accommodation.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:36 AM on June 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes!
Too many people in this discussion are taking it for granted that this issue is primarily about bathrooms. Bathrooms and concerns about rape culture (which conservatives ignore when it comes to cis athletes) are a cultural and legal lever for justifying discrimination. Utopian ideals about renovating all the bathrooms don't do squat regarding the current bills and lawsuits.
Not that we shouldn't dream the improbable dream. But we need to be quite clear that the conservative agenda this year is to throw up legal barriers to any accommodation.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:36 AM on June 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
"However the issue is that it is difficult to single out bathrooms. If bathrooms are unisexual then showers, clothing stores dressing rooms, lockers, and the rest should be as well."
Aren't clothing store dressing rooms already unisexual?
posted by I-baLL at 8:14 AM on June 8, 2016
Aren't clothing store dressing rooms already unisexual?
posted by I-baLL at 8:14 AM on June 8, 2016
Aren't clothing store dressing rooms already unisexual?
It really depends on the store. Large department stores usually have dressing rooms in the areas of the store for women's clothing vs men's clothing. In the UK, communal but single-sex dressing rooms were common when I lived there. The single-stall dressing rooms here tend to be far more private than your average American toilet stall. Which, honestly, are by and large hideously designed.
My point above was succinctly made by Annika Cicada – rape culture. I hate the "slippery slope" that this discussion devolves into. When cis men can get their shit together, they can share a bathroom with me. This hands on hips, "I don't get why it's such a big deal, people (men and women) should just do their business and get out of the bathroom, why can't they do that?" Answer: I DON'T KNOW. WHY CAN'T THEY DO THAT? Why can't men just leave women alone? Why the cat-calling? Why the blackout rapes? I don't know. Why you got to get upset if I don't give you a smile and deference when I don't even know you? I don't know. Why do you get to comment on my face, my ass, my tits while I wait for the bus? Why do you make kissy noises when I walk by? Why do you push up against me in crowded public places and run your hand over my ass? I don't know.
In the meantime, while you guys work on that, we can allow this single issue to broaden our horizons without forcing women to be cool with men. Men, you gotta be cool first. Maybe the signage on the bathroom could be "Fools" and "Not Fools." Then we can direct the fools to the right space for them.
posted by amanda at 9:28 AM on June 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
It really depends on the store. Large department stores usually have dressing rooms in the areas of the store for women's clothing vs men's clothing. In the UK, communal but single-sex dressing rooms were common when I lived there. The single-stall dressing rooms here tend to be far more private than your average American toilet stall. Which, honestly, are by and large hideously designed.
My point above was succinctly made by Annika Cicada – rape culture. I hate the "slippery slope" that this discussion devolves into. When cis men can get their shit together, they can share a bathroom with me. This hands on hips, "I don't get why it's such a big deal, people (men and women) should just do their business and get out of the bathroom, why can't they do that?" Answer: I DON'T KNOW. WHY CAN'T THEY DO THAT? Why can't men just leave women alone? Why the cat-calling? Why the blackout rapes? I don't know. Why you got to get upset if I don't give you a smile and deference when I don't even know you? I don't know. Why do you get to comment on my face, my ass, my tits while I wait for the bus? Why do you make kissy noises when I walk by? Why do you push up against me in crowded public places and run your hand over my ass? I don't know.
In the meantime, while you guys work on that, we can allow this single issue to broaden our horizons without forcing women to be cool with men. Men, you gotta be cool first. Maybe the signage on the bathroom could be "Fools" and "Not Fools." Then we can direct the fools to the right space for them.
posted by amanda at 9:28 AM on June 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
So because we now understand this is a rape culture/misogyny problem and that "trans people not looking cis enough" is NOT the problem can we all agree that policing trans people in ANY gender segregated space is damaging to trans and gender non-conforming people and doing jack shit to fix the actual rape-culture problems cis AND trans people are suffering?
Is this solved enough now to cease being a discussion point finally? Because there is A LOT more going on for trans and gender NC people than just where to pee. This is just the tippiest point of the iceberg we're chipping away at.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:21 AM on June 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is this solved enough now to cease being a discussion point finally? Because there is A LOT more going on for trans and gender NC people than just where to pee. This is just the tippiest point of the iceberg we're chipping away at.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:21 AM on June 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Aren't nude beaches and topless women relatively common in Europe? It's hard to believe they don't have a rape culture over there too, so how can co-mingled nudity exist. And how do men function in a bathroom when gay men exist, if men are assumed to be inherently voyeuristic?
posted by AFABulous at 11:03 AM on June 8, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 11:03 AM on June 8, 2016
note, I didn't mean for my comment to dismiss the very real problems and fear women face
posted by AFABulous at 11:04 AM on June 8, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 11:04 AM on June 8, 2016
A beach is a much more open and public space than a bathroom, and generally don't have little locking stalls that you could conceivably be bundled into by a single other person there with intent to harm you. For one.
posted by Dysk at 11:27 AM on June 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:27 AM on June 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Again all the trans women have said this better than me, but it's not right for a group of women to ask for their full rights as women as part of our system and be told "ok, but let's just start a new system though and throw out the old one"
The discrimination is the problem.
posted by zutalors! at 11:30 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The discrimination is the problem.
posted by zutalors! at 11:30 AM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry shouldn't have mentioned just women but it was top of mind given the context.
posted by zutalors! at 11:31 AM on June 8, 2016
posted by zutalors! at 11:31 AM on June 8, 2016
I am endlessly annoyed (and sometimes amused) at how trans men are erased from the mainstream discussion of the "bathroom rights" topic. There's swarms of right-wing cis politicians - usually white, male, upper-class, Christian, etc. - who screech about the horrible possibility that a "man pretending to be a woman" could be invading the bathrooms of their precious wives and daughters.
Set aside, for a moment, the statistical history of trans men assaulting cis women in bathrooms, which I believe is zero. Set aside the transphobia, the abject denial of decades of science and legal structures (built on centuries of activism) that allow trans people to claim their identities in public. Set aside the combination of misogyny and arrogance that assumes that any threat from trans people could only be to women (which, see prev point, of course doesn't include trans women):
There is no mention at all of trans men being required to use the bathrooms along with those delicate fragile ladies.
Have they never seen butch-looking trans men? Sexy trans men? (Link provided for, um, totally on-topic example purposes and not just as an excuse to show off totally hot underwear models. May not be safe for work.) Teenage trans boys, whom they want to share locker rooms with cis girls? This ranges from unpleasant to traumatic for the trans boys. However, we know that the politicians who want these measures don't give a damn about the well-being of trans people--the confusing part is that they apparently haven't noticed that there's more than one kind of trans person.
I personally know more trans men than trans women, so when I hear "trans people required to use the bathrooms assigned to their assigned-at-birth gender," I contemplate Alexander James Adams walking into the ladies' room, and I'm... more than a little boggled that that's what McRory wants.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:18 PM on June 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Set aside, for a moment, the statistical history of trans men assaulting cis women in bathrooms, which I believe is zero. Set aside the transphobia, the abject denial of decades of science and legal structures (built on centuries of activism) that allow trans people to claim their identities in public. Set aside the combination of misogyny and arrogance that assumes that any threat from trans people could only be to women (which, see prev point, of course doesn't include trans women):
There is no mention at all of trans men being required to use the bathrooms along with those delicate fragile ladies.
Have they never seen butch-looking trans men? Sexy trans men? (Link provided for, um, totally on-topic example purposes and not just as an excuse to show off totally hot underwear models. May not be safe for work.) Teenage trans boys, whom they want to share locker rooms with cis girls? This ranges from unpleasant to traumatic for the trans boys. However, we know that the politicians who want these measures don't give a damn about the well-being of trans people--the confusing part is that they apparently haven't noticed that there's more than one kind of trans person.
I personally know more trans men than trans women, so when I hear "trans people required to use the bathrooms assigned to their assigned-at-birth gender," I contemplate Alexander James Adams walking into the ladies' room, and I'm... more than a little boggled that that's what McRory wants.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:18 PM on June 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am endlessly annoyed (and sometimes amused) at how trans men are erased from the mainstream discussion of the "bathroom rights" topic.
It is really bizarre. I think there's a thesis here about toxic masculinity and the patriarchy which could go super deep. Narratives to explore:
- gay panic
- how men assume they can beat the crap out of anyone who threatens them
- how women can only be "wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters, mothers" but never a singular person that they can identify with
- how men have a white knight violence fantasy of how they will leap into action to save themselves, their cowering womenfolk and their possessions when threatened (see: guns)
- how white males just never need to imagine themselves as the "other" because nothing in the culture requires this of them (see: empathy, stunted)
- a sanctioned history of pathologizing gender issues that we are only beginning to pull the veil on (see: psychotherapy, recent & historical)
Mostly, though, I think it's pandering to the base. Won't someone think of the children?? is about the most effective (though hollow) tactic to play.
posted by amanda at 4:33 PM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It is really bizarre. I think there's a thesis here about toxic masculinity and the patriarchy which could go super deep. Narratives to explore:
- gay panic
- how men assume they can beat the crap out of anyone who threatens them
- how women can only be "wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters, mothers" but never a singular person that they can identify with
- how men have a white knight violence fantasy of how they will leap into action to save themselves, their cowering womenfolk and their possessions when threatened (see: guns)
- how white males just never need to imagine themselves as the "other" because nothing in the culture requires this of them (see: empathy, stunted)
- a sanctioned history of pathologizing gender issues that we are only beginning to pull the veil on (see: psychotherapy, recent & historical)
Mostly, though, I think it's pandering to the base. Won't someone think of the children?? is about the most effective (though hollow) tactic to play.
posted by amanda at 4:33 PM on June 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is no mention at all of trans men being required to use the bathrooms along with those delicate fragile ladies.
Oh, the trans men are swept up in this, but since it's all about transmisogyny, we're mostly a footnote.
(Also, please don't trot out pictures of trans men and say "You wouldn't want this guy in a women's bathroom, would you?" It just reinforces the idea that we're legitimately talking about "protecting" women's bathrooms from men, not just trying to eradicate trans people from public life.)
posted by hoyland at 5:22 PM on June 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Oh, the trans men are swept up in this, but since it's all about transmisogyny, we're mostly a footnote.
(Also, please don't trot out pictures of trans men and say "You wouldn't want this guy in a women's bathroom, would you?" It just reinforces the idea that we're legitimately talking about "protecting" women's bathrooms from men, not just trying to eradicate trans people from public life.)
posted by hoyland at 5:22 PM on June 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean this afternoon, while at a Velocity credit union here in Austin, I had a CU employee literally stop as we both walked toward the (gender neutral! Even!) restroom, turn around, look me up and down from a foot away, then start cackling at me and asked the other *customers* of the bank "Why would a guy dress like that in public?!". I walked the ten more feet to the restroom as she howled with delight at a "guy dressed up like a lady" in the bank.
And it gets better because after I left the restroom one of the older gentleman she was making fun of me to STARTED LAUGHING at me as I walked by. I had to pass her as I left, and I walked out of the bank to her howls of laughter and exclamations about the way I was dressed to what I believe were her coworkers. Fuck that place forever.
So like, even though I am 100% certain that I AM A WOMAN and *believe* I project a somewhat cis-binary gender presentation, that doesn't mean shit. People are going to see whatever they see and had that lady seen me enter a woman's designated restroom, well holy fucking crap I have no idea what she would have said or done.
I guess the point here is that when you're cis non-conforming there's no guarantee that the way your gender gets interpreted will make any damn sense anymore and people are liable to see who the fuck knows. So I don't get the whole "do you want this cis-passing trans person in the wrong bathroom?!?!" because really, people, I know like a few hundred trans people and I only know TWO that legitimately pass as cis all the time. For real, most of us are in a permanent uncanny valley of gender binary WTF and even though we may identify as "binary trans man or woman" that means shit out there in the real world where who knows how we will be seen.
And FWIW, fuck almost all small businesses. I'd rather deal with mega-corps that have enough stores and broad enough customer and employee base to have a policy regarding treating me with dignity. That bank doesn't deserve another goddamn dime of my money.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:53 PM on June 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
And it gets better because after I left the restroom one of the older gentleman she was making fun of me to STARTED LAUGHING at me as I walked by. I had to pass her as I left, and I walked out of the bank to her howls of laughter and exclamations about the way I was dressed to what I believe were her coworkers. Fuck that place forever.
So like, even though I am 100% certain that I AM A WOMAN and *believe* I project a somewhat cis-binary gender presentation, that doesn't mean shit. People are going to see whatever they see and had that lady seen me enter a woman's designated restroom, well holy fucking crap I have no idea what she would have said or done.
I guess the point here is that when you're cis non-conforming there's no guarantee that the way your gender gets interpreted will make any damn sense anymore and people are liable to see who the fuck knows. So I don't get the whole "do you want this cis-passing trans person in the wrong bathroom?!?!" because really, people, I know like a few hundred trans people and I only know TWO that legitimately pass as cis all the time. For real, most of us are in a permanent uncanny valley of gender binary WTF and even though we may identify as "binary trans man or woman" that means shit out there in the real world where who knows how we will be seen.
And FWIW, fuck almost all small businesses. I'd rather deal with mega-corps that have enough stores and broad enough customer and employee base to have a policy regarding treating me with dignity. That bank doesn't deserve another goddamn dime of my money.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:53 PM on June 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I, as a transmasculine person who was AFAB, have literally questioned a 'but think of the women!' bathroom bill supporter about this.
"Where should I pee now?"
"Women's bathroom, because you look like a woman."
"But if/when I start taking Testosterone (which is on hold now for Reasons), I'll eventually have a mustache, sideburns, and a beard. Where should I pee then?"
"The Men's room, as you'd then look like a man."
"But I'll still have a vagina, and my birth certificate will say 'Female'. So, where should I pee then? Because your laws say the 'women's room'."
They stood there and vibrated for a full minute.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:54 PM on June 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
"Where should I pee now?"
"Women's bathroom, because you look like a woman."
"But if/when I start taking Testosterone (which is on hold now for Reasons), I'll eventually have a mustache, sideburns, and a beard. Where should I pee then?"
"The Men's room, as you'd then look like a man."
"But I'll still have a vagina, and my birth certificate will say 'Female'. So, where should I pee then? Because your laws say the 'women's room'."
They stood there and vibrated for a full minute.
posted by spinifex23 at 5:54 PM on June 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm growing patchy, kinda ridiculous-looking facial hair to facilitate passing*. I shouldn't need to, but it makes me feel safer
*I actually prefer "being recognized as [gender]" because "passing" connotes getting one over on people, but sometimes I'm too lazy to type all that.
posted by AFABulous at 7:08 AM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
*I actually prefer "being recognized as [gender]" because "passing" connotes getting one over on people, but sometimes I'm too lazy to type all that.
posted by AFABulous at 7:08 AM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
And now a bomb has gone off in a women's room stall at Target in Evanston Ill. JFC.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:47 AM on June 9, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:47 AM on June 9, 2016
Someone made the point on twitter that this might "just" be asshole teenagers instead of a transphobe nut, but WHAT A COINCIDENCE that they picked a Target women's room when there has been so much press lately about Target's policies. Seems mighty opportunistic doesn't it?
I feel so much for everyone who has to use a women's room right now. Maybe when cis women have to be scared of BOMBS and cis men who are "Just checking" for trans women, we'll see something change.
posted by AFABulous at 9:01 AM on June 9, 2016
I feel so much for everyone who has to use a women's room right now. Maybe when cis women have to be scared of BOMBS and cis men who are "Just checking" for trans women, we'll see something change.
posted by AFABulous at 9:01 AM on June 9, 2016
Whatever their intent it sure has fuck terrorized me.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:12 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:12 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Someone made the point on twitter that this might "just" be asshole teenagers instead of a transphobe nut
According to the article, a 44 year old woman has been taken into custody, so signs are not pointing that way.
posted by Dysk at 9:17 AM on June 9, 2016
According to the article, a 44 year old woman has been taken into custody, so signs are not pointing that way.
posted by Dysk at 9:17 AM on June 9, 2016
hoyland, point taken, and I'm sorry - I don't want to reinforce the ridiculous "must protect the wimminz and kidlets!" message that the bathroom law supporters are making; I'm just surprised that they haven't thought about what they're asking for. (Shouldn't be; I know.)
It's like they don't believe trans men exist. Like their only concept of trans people is a warped mental image of either Homer Simpson mowing the lawn in his wife's dress, or college frat boys wearing a wig to sneak into the girls' locker room.
(Cue rant: Representation matters.) There are bad-jokes versions of male transvestites in mainstream media; there are damnfew non-joke variants, and even fewer where "guy dressing or presenting as a woman" isn't a notable part of the performance. (I'm thinking of the Kids in the Hall here.) There are very, very few portrayals going the other direction (Linda Hunt, Year of Living Dangerously is all I can think of), and I can't think of any examples of trans men as men, rather than "woman living as a guy in order to get access to some of male privilege."
Examples welcome, but that's a side point. Mostly I'm noticing how much trans men are ignored when mainstream media discusses trans issues.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2016
It's like they don't believe trans men exist. Like their only concept of trans people is a warped mental image of either Homer Simpson mowing the lawn in his wife's dress, or college frat boys wearing a wig to sneak into the girls' locker room.
(Cue rant: Representation matters.) There are bad-jokes versions of male transvestites in mainstream media; there are damnfew non-joke variants, and even fewer where "guy dressing or presenting as a woman" isn't a notable part of the performance. (I'm thinking of the Kids in the Hall here.) There are very, very few portrayals going the other direction (Linda Hunt, Year of Living Dangerously is all I can think of), and I can't think of any examples of trans men as men, rather than "woman living as a guy in order to get access to some of male privilege."
Examples welcome, but that's a side point. Mostly I'm noticing how much trans men are ignored when mainstream media discusses trans issues.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2016
Yeah, it's not exactly like it's fucking hunky dory as a trans woman being effectively equated with men in drag, neither when it happens in mainstream media. Or in comments here.
posted by Dysk at 9:43 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:43 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
According to the article, a 44 year old woman has been taken into custody, so signs are not pointing that way.
I could just be mistaken but I think they're updating that article directly and that it didn't say that before.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:53 AM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I could just be mistaken but I think they're updating that article directly and that it didn't say that before.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:53 AM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's like they don't believe trans men exist.
We really, really don't in most people's minds. Perhaps in part because many trans men have an easier time blending in ("passing") than many trans women. I'm doing a strength training program and I've showed my trainer pics of cis-normative trans men like Aydian Dowling and Benjamin Melzer by way of explaining what I'm trying to achieve (as if). He was just dumbfounded that guys could be completely undetectable as trans.
Also, 100% endorse hoyland's point about not trotting out cisnormative trans men as some sort of danger to women and girls. It just reinforces the idea that all trans people who "look like men" are dangerous.
posted by AFABulous at 10:26 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
We really, really don't in most people's minds. Perhaps in part because many trans men have an easier time blending in ("passing") than many trans women. I'm doing a strength training program and I've showed my trainer pics of cis-normative trans men like Aydian Dowling and Benjamin Melzer by way of explaining what I'm trying to achieve (as if). He was just dumbfounded that guys could be completely undetectable as trans.
Also, 100% endorse hoyland's point about not trotting out cisnormative trans men as some sort of danger to women and girls. It just reinforces the idea that all trans people who "look like men" are dangerous.
posted by AFABulous at 10:26 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Testosterone is a magical, magical thing.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:54 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by spinifex23 at 11:54 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, I think that one of the reasons that transmasculine/transmen are 'invisible' is how we're read - on that split second decision path that someone makes when they glance at us, we're either seen as an extremely butch woman (thus female), or a cis man (thus male). There is no in between here. No one goes - 'Oh, that's a trans guy!; it's either one or the other, in my experience.
I could literally walk around with a men's cut suit, a high and tight hair cut, and a nametag reading 'DWAYNE' on it, and I'll still get read as 'female' nearly 100% of the time by strangers, because I'm not on Testosterone.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:30 PM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I could literally walk around with a men's cut suit, a high and tight hair cut, and a nametag reading 'DWAYNE' on it, and I'll still get read as 'female' nearly 100% of the time by strangers, because I'm not on Testosterone.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:30 PM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
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