"The Most Fascinatingly Boring City in the World"
July 4, 2016 5:42 AM Subscribe
Author Stephen Marche celebrates (?) his hometown of Toronto.
I've no idea why he has a hate-on for Chicago, though. It's weird.
I've no idea why he has a hate-on for Chicago, though. It's weird.
Someone should figure out who to talk to about getting the humblebrag declared to be the national rhetorical ploy of Canada.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:16 AM on July 4, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:16 AM on July 4, 2016 [23 favorites]
The catastrophic state of transit has had a host of unintended consequences; the explosion of downtown construction is due largely to the fact that commuting from the suburbs has become more or less unendurable.
I spent a week in Toronto last month. I commuted every day from North York to downtown by bus and subway. I was amazed at how fast and effortless it was. I never waited longer than three minutes for a train, and they were never crowded. When the bus was crowded, every single person (without exception) was polite and let me have my space. Not sure where this guy has been.
posted by crazylegs at 6:19 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I spent a week in Toronto last month. I commuted every day from North York to downtown by bus and subway. I was amazed at how fast and effortless it was. I never waited longer than three minutes for a train, and they were never crowded. When the bus was crowded, every single person (without exception) was polite and let me have my space. Not sure where this guy has been.
posted by crazylegs at 6:19 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
The "who do you think you are?" response thus far is pitch-perfect Upper Canadian; rounds of Alice Munroe for all.
I type this trapped in my hellish commute from Scarborough to the Annex after a weekend of biking by the lake, eating at the beach, and Pride so I indolently agree that Toronto is amazing...pass the samosas.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:26 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I type this trapped in my hellish commute from Scarborough to the Annex after a weekend of biking by the lake, eating at the beach, and Pride so I indolently agree that Toronto is amazing...pass the samosas.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:26 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Reads like every article written about Canada by a Canadian ever. "We're just like America, except we're totally distinct and better!"
posted by MillMan at 6:28 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by MillMan at 6:28 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
At the same time, Toronto is 51% foreign-born, with people from over 230 countries, making it by many assessments, the most diverse city in the world.
I love Toronto's diversity, but their immigration situation is not parallel to the United States. This article in the Economist says that Canada has a fairly restrictive immigration policy, in that "most immigrants to Canada are authorised under a 'points' system tied to their credentials and employment potential. About half of Canadian immigrants have bachelor's degrees ... The preponderance of evidence suggests that Canada's immigrants, being high-skilled, are net contributors." Compared to the United States, Canada seems to cherry pick its potential immigrants -- and quite successfully.
posted by Modest House at 6:35 AM on July 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
I love Toronto's diversity, but their immigration situation is not parallel to the United States. This article in the Economist says that Canada has a fairly restrictive immigration policy, in that "most immigrants to Canada are authorised under a 'points' system tied to their credentials and employment potential. About half of Canadian immigrants have bachelor's degrees ... The preponderance of evidence suggests that Canada's immigrants, being high-skilled, are net contributors." Compared to the United States, Canada seems to cherry pick its potential immigrants -- and quite successfully.
posted by Modest House at 6:35 AM on July 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
This is the latest in a long tradition of white Canadians doing their favourite thing: patting themselves on the back. He really glosses over just how disenfranchised people of colour feel in Toronto. John Tory perfectly captured the attitude when he said, in the run-up to our annual Pride festival (our Pride parade was yesterday) that Pride Toronto has to be "careful not to become too political." Essentially the people John Tory represents only value vulnerable and minority communities insofar as they can serve to remind us how awesome we are at making everyone feel welcome. Actually raising a voice to say that we still have huge issues of equality and security for these communities is distinctly unwelcome. When Black Lives Matter staged their sit-in outside Toronto Police Headquarters, Tory said that they had made their point, but they needed to tone it down.
Rob Ford's mayoralty exposed A LOT of fault lines in Toronto (including the fact that many non-Establishment white people aren't huge fans of our multicultural reputation), and Tory was elected essentially to put that genie back in the bottle while still keeping property taxes low and making sure suburban drivers are inconvenienced as little as possible.
A local writer named Corey Mintz summed up Toronto better than any longform article ever could: "Ambition at odds with stinginess; imagination stymied by parochialism."
posted by dry white toast at 6:45 AM on July 4, 2016 [36 favorites]
Rob Ford's mayoralty exposed A LOT of fault lines in Toronto (including the fact that many non-Establishment white people aren't huge fans of our multicultural reputation), and Tory was elected essentially to put that genie back in the bottle while still keeping property taxes low and making sure suburban drivers are inconvenienced as little as possible.
A local writer named Corey Mintz summed up Toronto better than any longform article ever could: "Ambition at odds with stinginess; imagination stymied by parochialism."
posted by dry white toast at 6:45 AM on July 4, 2016 [36 favorites]
The author points out that Toronto needs new revenue streams, but doesn't mention that the revenue streams available to the city are dependent on the province of Ontario.
Ontario's government structures were created back when Canada was mostly rural; cities are, in effect, wards of the province. (For example: in Toronto, developers who don't like zoning rulings can appeal to the Ontario Municipal Board, which has historically been a rubber stamp for developers.) This made life difficult for Toronto back when the Progressive Conservative government under Mike Harris was elected in the mid-1990s, as the PCs discovered that Toronto-bashing was an effective way to earn votes in other regions of Ontario. They cut off provincial funding for Toronto transit and downloaded additional spending responsibilities on the city.
Worse than this, they permitted unchecked suburban sprawl in the outer suburbs of Toronto and its surrounding regions, which made mass transit unfeasible in the suburbs (the Sheppard subway is the obvious example of this).
The Scarborough subway boondoggle is the fault of one man: the late Rob Ford, who honestly could not tell the difference between a crowded, traffic-blocking streetcar and a high-speed LRT line. He poisoned the well enough to ensure that residents of Scarborough will now feel short-changed if they do not have a subway of their very own, despite the fact that it won't serve the vast majority of residents, most of whom are forced to endure long, jam-packed commutes on buses.
The current provincial government and federal government are both not anti-Toronto for the first time in ages. However, the province of Ontario is deeply in debt, thanks partially to the policies of the previous Conservative government, whose pro-oil policy caused Ontario to become a victim of Dutch Disease. Both Ontario and Canada are gambling that deficit financing will enable Toronto to make the infrastructure spending it needs to keep the subways running. I'm a regular subway commuter, and I've noticed marginal improvements in the past year, so hopefully the gamble will pay off.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:50 AM on July 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
Ontario's government structures were created back when Canada was mostly rural; cities are, in effect, wards of the province. (For example: in Toronto, developers who don't like zoning rulings can appeal to the Ontario Municipal Board, which has historically been a rubber stamp for developers.) This made life difficult for Toronto back when the Progressive Conservative government under Mike Harris was elected in the mid-1990s, as the PCs discovered that Toronto-bashing was an effective way to earn votes in other regions of Ontario. They cut off provincial funding for Toronto transit and downloaded additional spending responsibilities on the city.
Worse than this, they permitted unchecked suburban sprawl in the outer suburbs of Toronto and its surrounding regions, which made mass transit unfeasible in the suburbs (the Sheppard subway is the obvious example of this).
The Scarborough subway boondoggle is the fault of one man: the late Rob Ford, who honestly could not tell the difference between a crowded, traffic-blocking streetcar and a high-speed LRT line. He poisoned the well enough to ensure that residents of Scarborough will now feel short-changed if they do not have a subway of their very own, despite the fact that it won't serve the vast majority of residents, most of whom are forced to endure long, jam-packed commutes on buses.
The current provincial government and federal government are both not anti-Toronto for the first time in ages. However, the province of Ontario is deeply in debt, thanks partially to the policies of the previous Conservative government, whose pro-oil policy caused Ontario to become a victim of Dutch Disease. Both Ontario and Canada are gambling that deficit financing will enable Toronto to make the infrastructure spending it needs to keep the subways running. I'm a regular subway commuter, and I've noticed marginal improvements in the past year, so hopefully the gamble will pay off.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 6:50 AM on July 4, 2016 [15 favorites]
Maybe this is a good introductory piece, but beyond that? Each paragraph had me saying "Well, actually..."
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:51 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:51 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
When Black Lives Matter staged their sit-in outside Toronto Police Headquarters, Tory said that they had made their point, but they needed to tone it down.
Yeah, he's kind of glossed over the fact that we call ourselves a global, multicultural city, but somehow our political leadership - as in, the people we get out to vote for - is composed mostly of people's crank racist uncles, and hoarder aunts.
posted by mhoye at 6:54 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, he's kind of glossed over the fact that we call ourselves a global, multicultural city, but somehow our political leadership - as in, the people we get out to vote for - is composed mostly of people's crank racist uncles, and hoarder aunts.
posted by mhoye at 6:54 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
But diversity is not what sets Toronto apart; the near-unanimous celebration of diversity does. Toronto may be the last city in the world that unabashedly desires difference.
For those who don't know Unani Moose live just outside the Greater Toronto Area in the empty space between Toronto and Barrie. And they love to party with everybody.
posted by srboisvert at 6:55 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
For those who don't know Unani Moose live just outside the Greater Toronto Area in the empty space between Toronto and Barrie. And they love to party with everybody.
posted by srboisvert at 6:55 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nobody denies this. The Guardian article says basically the same (see the bit about the refugees being accountants and dentists). But I also think it's disingenuous to imply that anti-immigration sentiment in Europe and the US is based primarily in economics rather than xenophobia.
The terrible commute from the suburbs is mainly from the northeast and Northwest parts of the city, not straight north (ie north york). There are lots of busses that only come every 20 minutes, even during peak times. And the subways are every 2-3 minutes during peak times, but 4-6 minutes off-peak. I tbink what's not 9bvious to non-torontonians is that when the article refers to the suburbs, it's not talking about other little cities outside of Toronto. It's talking about non-metal parts of the city itself. I commuted an hour from West to downtown when I was an undergrad. And God help anyone who needs to commute between east and west. It's pretty shameful that it's so difficult to get from one part of the city to another.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:56 AM on July 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
The terrible commute from the suburbs is mainly from the northeast and Northwest parts of the city, not straight north (ie north york). There are lots of busses that only come every 20 minutes, even during peak times. And the subways are every 2-3 minutes during peak times, but 4-6 minutes off-peak. I tbink what's not 9bvious to non-torontonians is that when the article refers to the suburbs, it's not talking about other little cities outside of Toronto. It's talking about non-metal parts of the city itself. I commuted an hour from West to downtown when I was an undergrad. And God help anyone who needs to commute between east and west. It's pretty shameful that it's so difficult to get from one part of the city to another.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:56 AM on July 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
This essay does a remarkably poor job of making the case that Toronto is "boring," but it is an exemplary model, one in an apparently endless line, of lazy, windbag think-pieces by Canadian writers who want you to believe that Canada/Toronto is simultaneously better *and* worse than whichever country or city they're filling column lines by comparing it to. I have been reading shit like this for as long as I've lived in Toronto (almost 20 years), and *that* is what's boring.
There is no Toronto sound. There is no Toronto flavour. There is no Toronto scene. There is no Toronto style. Rather there are sounds and flavours and scenes and styles borrowed from elsewhere.
What is the singular (apparently there can be only one) "Paris sound"? What is the "New York flavour"? What is the "Hong Kong scene"? Show your work, Mr. Marche. I guess those cities developed their own sounds, flavours and scenes without any input from immigrants or people who live outside their borders. Pretty impressive!
The worship of safety and security applies across all fields and industries. A reliable person is infinitely more valued than a brilliant one. The “steady hand” is the Toronto ideal, and Toronto’s steadiness is why people flock here – and all the people flocking here are making it exciting. That’s why Toronto is the most fascinating totally boring city in the world.
"You know what this boring-ass city could use? More crime! It's been ages since I've been mugged. Maybe a tad more corruption. And riots! All the world-class cities have a very interesting history of violence. Even better if it's racially-motivated; spicy! And brilliant people? Not many of those in Toronto, no sir." Fuck off, dude.
The only point I will concede him is that the decades-long ongoing fuck-up that is Toronto's financing and transit/urban planning may very well undo a lot of the progress this city has made and may in the long run be its undoing. All those gleaming condos downtown will be slums within a generation if the infrastructure and services (which developers don't give a shit about because it's not their job to make sure they're there when they slap those highrises up as fast as they can before the boom ends) don't catch up to the rapidly expanding population. As for transit, others here have pointed out how screwed the city is, and if John "I'M NOT ROB FORD" Tory actually builds his Scarborough Stubway that will be the end of any hope for substantial improvements in my lifetime.
Lastly, as dry white toast points out, there are huge issues of inequality (racial* and otherwise) that Ford both exposed and made worse, and if they are not effectively and respectfully addressed (and the city establishment would love it if they swept themselves back under the rug where they used to be) they will grow into the even-more-serious problems that Marche apparently thinks will make Toronto more "interesting."
> I'm a regular subway commuter, and I've noticed marginal improvements in the past year, so hopefully the gamble will pay off.
This may in part be due to the fact that commuters are giving up on the TTC. Which is great for those who are left, but less good for progress moving forward.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:59 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is no Toronto sound. There is no Toronto flavour. There is no Toronto scene. There is no Toronto style. Rather there are sounds and flavours and scenes and styles borrowed from elsewhere.
What is the singular (apparently there can be only one) "Paris sound"? What is the "New York flavour"? What is the "Hong Kong scene"? Show your work, Mr. Marche. I guess those cities developed their own sounds, flavours and scenes without any input from immigrants or people who live outside their borders. Pretty impressive!
The worship of safety and security applies across all fields and industries. A reliable person is infinitely more valued than a brilliant one. The “steady hand” is the Toronto ideal, and Toronto’s steadiness is why people flock here – and all the people flocking here are making it exciting. That’s why Toronto is the most fascinating totally boring city in the world.
"You know what this boring-ass city could use? More crime! It's been ages since I've been mugged. Maybe a tad more corruption. And riots! All the world-class cities have a very interesting history of violence. Even better if it's racially-motivated; spicy! And brilliant people? Not many of those in Toronto, no sir." Fuck off, dude.
The only point I will concede him is that the decades-long ongoing fuck-up that is Toronto's financing and transit/urban planning may very well undo a lot of the progress this city has made and may in the long run be its undoing. All those gleaming condos downtown will be slums within a generation if the infrastructure and services (which developers don't give a shit about because it's not their job to make sure they're there when they slap those highrises up as fast as they can before the boom ends) don't catch up to the rapidly expanding population. As for transit, others here have pointed out how screwed the city is, and if John "I'M NOT ROB FORD" Tory actually builds his Scarborough Stubway that will be the end of any hope for substantial improvements in my lifetime.
Lastly, as dry white toast points out, there are huge issues of inequality (racial* and otherwise) that Ford both exposed and made worse, and if they are not effectively and respectfully addressed (and the city establishment would love it if they swept themselves back under the rug where they used to be) they will grow into the even-more-serious problems that Marche apparently thinks will make Toronto more "interesting."
> I'm a regular subway commuter, and I've noticed marginal improvements in the past year, so hopefully the gamble will pay off.
This may in part be due to the fact that commuters are giving up on the TTC. Which is great for those who are left, but less good for progress moving forward.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:59 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
The "that" that nobody denies in my comment was that Canadian immigrants are cherry picked. I started the comment on the subway where I enjoyed free data and didn't hit send til I got to the hospital where I am enjoying my free Healthcare.
Oh, subway data is only downtown. Another reason the commute from the suburbs sucks.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:00 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, subway data is only downtown. Another reason the commute from the suburbs sucks.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:00 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
God I can't stand this type of article.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:10 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:10 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, what made Toronto what it is: The decline of Montreal, starting in the 60s and accelerating in the aftermath of the 1980 referendum. Its better industrial position during the pre-Nafta era, when Southern Ontario had heavy industry while Quebec made shoes, clothes and furniture; only one large automobile plant was ever established outside of Ontario, in Saint-Thérèse, Quebec; it closed down in 2002.
A lot of what's brought up in the article is due to Toronto being in Canada and Ontario, and is the same from coast to coast or from Hawkesbury to Thunder Bay.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 7:10 AM on July 4, 2016
A lot of what's brought up in the article is due to Toronto being in Canada and Ontario, and is the same from coast to coast or from Hawkesbury to Thunder Bay.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 7:10 AM on July 4, 2016
Canadians don't have to be racist against immigrants; that's what native people are for.
posted by crazylegs at 7:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by crazylegs at 7:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I saw the ugly side of Canadians this past weekend. Some First Nations people burned the flag during the Canada Day parade here in Kingston and holy shit, the comments people felt free to make about that.
posted by Kitteh at 7:31 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:31 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
holy shit, the comments people felt free to make about that.
All that is just under the surface (and not even, most places).
The meaning of multiculturalism in Toronto is not theoretical; it is not found in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or in the decisions of the refugee board.
Still rlly rlly glad about that Charter.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:42 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
All that is just under the surface (and not even, most places).
The meaning of multiculturalism in Toronto is not theoretical; it is not found in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms or in the decisions of the refugee board.
Still rlly rlly glad about that Charter.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:42 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
The thing is, Toronto is an awesome city, and I would love to live there. But oh my God, the smugness. It burns.
Also, Chicago is a mess, but it's a glorious mess. It's hard to defend it, because there are many things about it that are completely indefensible, but I love it and miss it and don't entirely respect anyone who can't see the many things that make it wonderful.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:43 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, Chicago is a mess, but it's a glorious mess. It's hard to defend it, because there are many things about it that are completely indefensible, but I love it and miss it and don't entirely respect anyone who can't see the many things that make it wonderful.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:43 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's nothing bad about being "Toronto the Good."
posted by Carol Anne at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2016
posted by Carol Anne at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2016
Us white Canadians are the inheritors of an almost total genocide of the people who lived here before us. We have to dehumanize the survivors if we want to successfully remain in denial of that fact.
But yeah, multicultural, yay! Toronto smugness at its worst. Take a look at the comments on news stories about the Black Lives Matter protesters at the Pride Parade yesterday.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
But yeah, multicultural, yay! Toronto smugness at its worst. Take a look at the comments on news stories about the Black Lives Matter protesters at the Pride Parade yesterday.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
Also, Chicago is a mess, but it's a glorious mess. It's hard to defend it, because there are many things about it that are completely indefensible, but I love it and miss it and don't entirely respect anyone who can't see the many things that make it wonderful.
Which is why I said it was weird that Marche singled out Chicago. My best guess is that it too is a massive city sitting on a Great Lake. If not, no idea.
I love Toronto. It's the closest massive city to the smaller city where I now live and it's so cheap to get a bus into town and just have a great weekend. My husband went to university in Toronto before moving on to Quebec and now Kingston. He'd love to move back but man, we'd be broke all the time, despite being DINKs.
posted by Kitteh at 7:55 AM on July 4, 2016
Which is why I said it was weird that Marche singled out Chicago. My best guess is that it too is a massive city sitting on a Great Lake. If not, no idea.
I love Toronto. It's the closest massive city to the smaller city where I now live and it's so cheap to get a bus into town and just have a great weekend. My husband went to university in Toronto before moving on to Quebec and now Kingston. He'd love to move back but man, we'd be broke all the time, despite being DINKs.
posted by Kitteh at 7:55 AM on July 4, 2016
Chicago is Toronto's closest comparison: roughly the same size population, similar climate, lake waterfront.
I also didn't think he was slagging Chicago. He was mostly making the point Chicago was the symbol of industrial America at its peak, and it, like American in general, is still deciding what it should be now that that is all in the past, while Toronto has somewhat settled into a role in the 21st century, even if unintentionally. Even the line about how Chicago fails spectacularly felt more complementary than not from the perspective of a city that pretty much never takes risks.
posted by dry white toast at 8:04 AM on July 4, 2016
I also didn't think he was slagging Chicago. He was mostly making the point Chicago was the symbol of industrial America at its peak, and it, like American in general, is still deciding what it should be now that that is all in the past, while Toronto has somewhat settled into a role in the 21st century, even if unintentionally. Even the line about how Chicago fails spectacularly felt more complementary than not from the perspective of a city that pretty much never takes risks.
posted by dry white toast at 8:04 AM on July 4, 2016
Us white Canadians are the inheritors of an almost total genocide of the people who lived here before us
Inheritors? Other than millennials, we're direct beneficiaries. Given that the UN definition of genocide rightly includes mass kidnapping of children to destroy their culture, genocide was deliberate Canadian government policy well into my lifetime. The last residential school closed down in 1996.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:05 AM on July 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
Inheritors? Other than millennials, we're direct beneficiaries. Given that the UN definition of genocide rightly includes mass kidnapping of children to destroy their culture, genocide was deliberate Canadian government policy well into my lifetime. The last residential school closed down in 1996.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:05 AM on July 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
...This made life difficult for Toronto back when the Progressive Conservative government under Mike Harris was elected in the mid-1990s, as the PCs discovered that Toronto-bashing was an effective way to earn votes in other regions of Ontario. They cut off provincial funding for Toronto transit and downloaded additional spending responsibilities on the city.
Agree completely. Just to colour this in a bit - the Eglinton West subway was literally in the process of being built in 1995, when it was cancelled by Mike Harris.
...while Toronto has somewhat settled into a role in the 21st century, even if unintentionally.
This is a really good point, IMO.
Robert Fulford's Accidental City is a pretty good read on this very thing. As a Torontonian by choice who moved here as a younger adult, I'm glad I read it shortly after moving here - it put a lot of city decision making in context (e.g., the ravine system and its attendant green space being, in effect, saved by Hurricane Hazel - certain areas prone to flood would no longer be zoned for residential development).
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:13 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Agree completely. Just to colour this in a bit - the Eglinton West subway was literally in the process of being built in 1995, when it was cancelled by Mike Harris.
...while Toronto has somewhat settled into a role in the 21st century, even if unintentionally.
This is a really good point, IMO.
Robert Fulford's Accidental City is a pretty good read on this very thing. As a Torontonian by choice who moved here as a younger adult, I'm glad I read it shortly after moving here - it put a lot of city decision making in context (e.g., the ravine system and its attendant green space being, in effect, saved by Hurricane Hazel - certain areas prone to flood would no longer be zoned for residential development).
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:13 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Inheritors? Other than millennials, we're direct beneficiaries.
I wrote that from my narrow perspective of being born in 1983, I guess. The Residential Schools were one of the acts of genocide I had in mind, and it wasn't truly ended until well into my second decade of life.
Some of the perpetrators of this genocide still walk among us unpunished and free to run our Olympic Committees and commission ghostwritten memoirs that omit the first few years of your life in Canada and defame reporters that call you on your bullshit.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:16 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wrote that from my narrow perspective of being born in 1983, I guess. The Residential Schools were one of the acts of genocide I had in mind, and it wasn't truly ended until well into my second decade of life.
Some of the perpetrators of this genocide still walk among us unpunished and free to run our Olympic Committees and commission ghostwritten memoirs that omit the first few years of your life in Canada and defame reporters that call you on your bullshit.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:16 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
One other problem that the Mike Harris government imposed on Toronto was forced amalgamation of the old city of Toronto with the surrounding suburban cities that used to form Metro Toronto (Etobicoke, York, North York, East York, and Scarborough). This gave the suburbs a majority of the votes. Had amalgamation not happened, Rob Ford could, at most, have become mayor of Etobicoke.
I disagree with almost all of John Tory's policies, but I think I understand what he is doing: he is attempting to win over enough suburban voters to try to stave off Doug Ford's impending run for mayor next time out.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 8:16 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I disagree with almost all of John Tory's policies, but I think I understand what he is doing: he is attempting to win over enough suburban voters to try to stave off Doug Ford's impending run for mayor next time out.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 8:16 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think that Toronto is much more like New York, in terms of its role in the culture and national economy, than it is like Chicago. Of course, there isn't really a direct analog in the US, because the US and Canada are really different countries in a lot of ways. At any rate, I don't think that Chicago's struggle is figuring out what it wants to be in a post-industrial economy. I think that Chicago's struggle is figuring out what to do about the fact that it has found a post-industrial identity that works really, really well for some parts of its population and really, really badly for others.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:19 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:19 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Scarborough subway boondoggle is the fault of one man: the late Rob Ford
Hey, don't let John Tory, city council, or certain Liberal Scarborough MPPs off the hook.
posted by beau jackson at 8:20 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey, don't let John Tory, city council, or certain Liberal Scarborough MPPs off the hook.
posted by beau jackson at 8:20 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
But yeah, multicultural, yay! Toronto smugness at its worst.
Totally. But. It really could be so much more terrible. It mostly is, everywhere else. People get fed up with the self-congratulatory bullshit, which of course ignores real tensions (and actual problems), and say they'll go - but where's better? Medicine Hat? Barrie? Paris?
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Totally. But. It really could be so much more terrible. It mostly is, everywhere else. People get fed up with the self-congratulatory bullshit, which of course ignores real tensions (and actual problems), and say they'll go - but where's better? Medicine Hat? Barrie? Paris?
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
This story is just a little ham-fisted for my taste. Yeah, I get that he's supposed to be the living embodiment of clueless privilege, but did you have to name him John Tory? I mean, make your point, fine, but you don't have to bash the reader over the head with it.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm something of an anomaly, someone from Western Canada who loves Toronto. I really do, I visit a few times a year and have a blast every time. One of my favourite things? I absolutely cannot put my finger on what it is that I like about Toronto... I just... do.
Also, the article was a somewhat fun read but really doesn't sound like the Toronto I visit, for the good or the bad.
posted by Cosine at 8:23 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, the article was a somewhat fun read but really doesn't sound like the Toronto I visit, for the good or the bad.
posted by Cosine at 8:23 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Scarborough subway boondoggle is the fault of one man: the late Rob Ford
Hey, don't let John Tory, city council, or certain Liberal Scarborough MPPs off the hook.
I agree: Tory and the various pro-subway people are shameless panderers and opportunists. But had Rob Ford not existed, the city would have implemented Transit City, which would have led to LRT lines on Sheppard Avenue and Eglinton Avenue (and on Finch West in North York). In that political climate, no one would have even considered a subway.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 8:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey, don't let John Tory, city council, or certain Liberal Scarborough MPPs off the hook.
I agree: Tory and the various pro-subway people are shameless panderers and opportunists. But had Rob Ford not existed, the city would have implemented Transit City, which would have led to LRT lines on Sheppard Avenue and Eglinton Avenue (and on Finch West in North York). In that political climate, no one would have even considered a subway.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 8:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with Marche's article, I think he actually gets Toronto's unique identity and awkward self-image, along with it's flaws.
I also find it hilarious that some people here are trying to shame him for having some civic pride, that's also a very Canadian thing to do.
posted by ovvl at 8:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
I also find it hilarious that some people here are trying to shame him for having some civic pride, that's also a very Canadian thing to do.
posted by ovvl at 8:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
crazylegs: "I spent a week in Toronto last month. I commuted every day from North York to downtown by bus and subway. I was amazed at how fast and effortless it was..."
Perhaps you're just making a sophisticated Toronto joke that is over my head, but just in case you're not, please understand that North York isn't a suburb of Toronto -- it already is Toronto. If one is travelling into Toronto from the north, you've been in "the city" for a while by the time you pass through North York. Map fetishists may argue, but living culture trumps theory. You're in TO, my friend.
Northern suburbs and exurbs include places like King City, Bradford West-Gwillimbury, and Aurora. The GO Transit corridor serving these and a dozen other commuter cities is a sad joke. Seriously, when Europeans come over to visit I always hope they don't notice that part. I'm like, "Hey, check out that escarpment over there! Not bad, isn't it?"
The automobile infrastructure serving that corridor is so bad it scares some people off driving for good. Personally I once spent 7.5 hours stuck on the 400 in the worst part of winter.
posted by Construction Concern at 8:42 AM on July 4, 2016
Perhaps you're just making a sophisticated Toronto joke that is over my head, but just in case you're not, please understand that North York isn't a suburb of Toronto -- it already is Toronto. If one is travelling into Toronto from the north, you've been in "the city" for a while by the time you pass through North York. Map fetishists may argue, but living culture trumps theory. You're in TO, my friend.
Northern suburbs and exurbs include places like King City, Bradford West-Gwillimbury, and Aurora. The GO Transit corridor serving these and a dozen other commuter cities is a sad joke. Seriously, when Europeans come over to visit I always hope they don't notice that part. I'm like, "Hey, check out that escarpment over there! Not bad, isn't it?"
The automobile infrastructure serving that corridor is so bad it scares some people off driving for good. Personally I once spent 7.5 hours stuck on the 400 in the worst part of winter.
posted by Construction Concern at 8:42 AM on July 4, 2016
Rob Ford "cancelled" Transit City, but he still needed city council and the province to roll over and play dead in order to be able to do so. They could have told him he didn't have the authority to do so unilaterally, but apparently they all thought the Ford Dynasty was going to last as long as the Holy Roman Empire and decided to get in on the ground floor.
This might be wishful thinking on my part, but I don't think Doug Ford will be the next mayor. Ford Nation was partly a cult of personality, and while the conditions that led to its rise have not gone away, Rob has. I think Doug will probably try, but he couldn't even win the last election when he still had Rob alive to campaign with.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:42 AM on July 4, 2016
This might be wishful thinking on my part, but I don't think Doug Ford will be the next mayor. Ford Nation was partly a cult of personality, and while the conditions that led to its rise have not gone away, Rob has. I think Doug will probably try, but he couldn't even win the last election when he still had Rob alive to campaign with.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:42 AM on July 4, 2016
Which is why I said it was weird that Marche singled out Chicago. My best guess is that it too is a massive city sitting on a Great Lake. If not, no idea.
As someone who grew up just outside of Toronto in Mississauga and now lives in Chicago I'd say part of why Toronto and Chicago are often contrasted is because the contrasts are stark. Chicago is a physically beautiful city and Toronto isn't. Chicago is fantastically politically corrupt and Toronto isn't. Chicago is rooted in its history (even the bad parts) and Toronto is the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind wiped. Toronto is incredibly safe and Chicago is not. Toronto is amazingly integrated and Chicago is shockingly segregated. The contrasts just go on and on.
I miss Toronto and would love to move back (if only it were not so expensive) but I have to admit I love Chicago in ways I never loved Toronto. Maybe even because of its flaws rather than in spite of them. Maybe because it feels like Chicago could become better while Toronto can only become worse but I might just be confused. I don't really understand it but I kind of feel it.
posted by srboisvert at 8:56 AM on July 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
As someone who grew up just outside of Toronto in Mississauga and now lives in Chicago I'd say part of why Toronto and Chicago are often contrasted is because the contrasts are stark. Chicago is a physically beautiful city and Toronto isn't. Chicago is fantastically politically corrupt and Toronto isn't. Chicago is rooted in its history (even the bad parts) and Toronto is the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind wiped. Toronto is incredibly safe and Chicago is not. Toronto is amazingly integrated and Chicago is shockingly segregated. The contrasts just go on and on.
I miss Toronto and would love to move back (if only it were not so expensive) but I have to admit I love Chicago in ways I never loved Toronto. Maybe even because of its flaws rather than in spite of them. Maybe because it feels like Chicago could become better while Toronto can only become worse but I might just be confused. I don't really understand it but I kind of feel it.
posted by srboisvert at 8:56 AM on July 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
Perhaps you're just making a sophisticated Toronto joke that is over my head, but just in case you're not, please understand that North York isn't a suburb of Toronto -- it already is Toronto. If one is travelling into Toronto from the north, you've been in "the city" for a while by the time you pass through North York. Map fetishists may argue, but living culture trumps theory. You're in TO, my friend.
Not a sophisticated Toronto joke exactly. Just a Toronto thing that is the result of Toronto's history: Some of the suburbs (sometimes called the inner suburbs) are in Toronto. When you hear about Rob Ford getting the suburban vote? Obviously those are people in Toronto because only Torontonians vote for Toronto's mayor. Those suburban votes come from the inner suburbs, which yes, are in Toronto, but yes, are suburbs. What makes them suburbs is two things: The style of neighbourhood etc. which is as suburban as brampton or mississauga or whatever outer suburb you want to think about and second the fact that when we had Metro Toronto, they were part of Metro Toronto and not part of what was formerly called the city of Toronto. Brampton/Mississauga other suburbs that are not actually part of what is the city of Toronto itself are not considered part of Metro Toronto but are instead part of the "Greater Toronto Area". So weirdly, Metro Toronto now includes only Toronto itself.
And yeah, commuting from the GTA to downtown Toronto is a nighmare, too, but not really a relevant nightmare to Torontonians since those people don't vote in our elections etc. and obviously Toronto voters aren't going to vote or pay for the convenience of people who don't live in Toronto.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:00 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not a sophisticated Toronto joke exactly. Just a Toronto thing that is the result of Toronto's history: Some of the suburbs (sometimes called the inner suburbs) are in Toronto. When you hear about Rob Ford getting the suburban vote? Obviously those are people in Toronto because only Torontonians vote for Toronto's mayor. Those suburban votes come from the inner suburbs, which yes, are in Toronto, but yes, are suburbs. What makes them suburbs is two things: The style of neighbourhood etc. which is as suburban as brampton or mississauga or whatever outer suburb you want to think about and second the fact that when we had Metro Toronto, they were part of Metro Toronto and not part of what was formerly called the city of Toronto. Brampton/Mississauga other suburbs that are not actually part of what is the city of Toronto itself are not considered part of Metro Toronto but are instead part of the "Greater Toronto Area". So weirdly, Metro Toronto now includes only Toronto itself.
And yeah, commuting from the GTA to downtown Toronto is a nighmare, too, but not really a relevant nightmare to Torontonians since those people don't vote in our elections etc. and obviously Toronto voters aren't going to vote or pay for the convenience of people who don't live in Toronto.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:00 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perhaps you're just making a sophisticated Toronto joke that is over my head, but just in case you're not, please understand that North York isn't a suburb of Toronto -- it already is Toronto.
Until 1998 and amalgamation, North York was a separate city. (Actually, before 1979, it wasn't even a city - it was a borough.) Toronto had a two-tiered municipal government; the outer tier included the suburban cities, such as North York.
It now all is one city, but old habits of thinking die hard, especially for those of us old-timers who grew up in North York and the other suburbs.
Rob Ford "cancelled" Transit City, but he still needed city council and the province to roll over and play dead in order to be able to do so.
I'm now picking nits here, but: my original point still stands, I think. Without Rob Ford, Transit City would not have been cancelled. City council and the province might have screwed things up in some other way, of course.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 9:06 AM on July 4, 2016
Until 1998 and amalgamation, North York was a separate city. (Actually, before 1979, it wasn't even a city - it was a borough.) Toronto had a two-tiered municipal government; the outer tier included the suburban cities, such as North York.
It now all is one city, but old habits of thinking die hard, especially for those of us old-timers who grew up in North York and the other suburbs.
Rob Ford "cancelled" Transit City, but he still needed city council and the province to roll over and play dead in order to be able to do so.
I'm now picking nits here, but: my original point still stands, I think. Without Rob Ford, Transit City would not have been cancelled. City council and the province might have screwed things up in some other way, of course.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 9:06 AM on July 4, 2016
living culture trumps theory.
Right, and the reality is, North York people mostly stay in North York, Mississauga people mostly stay in Mississauga, and I have no idea what Caledon is doing in the mix. The GTA is a disingenuous and cynical political artifact.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:13 AM on July 4, 2016
Right, and the reality is, North York people mostly stay in North York, Mississauga people mostly stay in Mississauga, and I have no idea what Caledon is doing in the mix. The GTA is a disingenuous and cynical political artifact.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:13 AM on July 4, 2016
If I only had a penguin, if the measuring rod is housing style and historical naming, Rosedale would be a "suburb" of the old city, too. But Toronto's Rosedale neibourhood is not a suburb in any meaningful sense. Two hundred years ago, sure, but not now.
North York could be reasonably described as suburban as recently as twenty years ago. It's history gives it a suburban footprint underpinning, but downtown Toronto's skyline spine is continuous from the harbour to Steeles. I just looked at it from an airplane last Friday. You're saying you imagine a line in there, a imaginary bound, that splits that into city and non-city? I believe you if you say the line is there, I guess. Is it a very meaningful line? I spent two decades living in Toronto, and there were always boundary snobs trying to tell people from Don Mills they weren't "Torontonians."
Perhaps, as you suggest, you might say you're in Toronto if your residence allows you to vote for Toronto's mayor. By that measure, North York is clearly Toronto.
I guess what I'm saying is that these distinctions you elucidate sound technically true, but trivially so in terms of city culture.
posted by Construction Concern at 9:14 AM on July 4, 2016
North York could be reasonably described as suburban as recently as twenty years ago. It's history gives it a suburban footprint underpinning, but downtown Toronto's skyline spine is continuous from the harbour to Steeles. I just looked at it from an airplane last Friday. You're saying you imagine a line in there, a imaginary bound, that splits that into city and non-city? I believe you if you say the line is there, I guess. Is it a very meaningful line? I spent two decades living in Toronto, and there were always boundary snobs trying to tell people from Don Mills they weren't "Torontonians."
Perhaps, as you suggest, you might say you're in Toronto if your residence allows you to vote for Toronto's mayor. By that measure, North York is clearly Toronto.
I guess what I'm saying is that these distinctions you elucidate sound technically true, but trivially so in terms of city culture.
posted by Construction Concern at 9:14 AM on July 4, 2016
I guess what I'm saying is that these distinctions you elucidate sound technically true, but trivially so in terms of city culture.
How are North York, Oshawa, or Milton integrated into (Metro) Toronto's city culture? Do they share its concerns and interests?
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:16 AM on July 4, 2016
How are North York, Oshawa, or Milton integrated into (Metro) Toronto's city culture? Do they share its concerns and interests?
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:16 AM on July 4, 2016
This might be wishful thinking on my part, but I don't think Doug Ford will be the next mayor.
Many underestimate the amount of stupid in Toronto. Rob Ford would easily have won reëlection had he not dropped out due to illness. His profoundly unlikeable surrogate, Doug, came in second. He didn't lose by a huge margin, and he finished well ahead of the only left-leaning candidate.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 9:17 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Many underestimate the amount of stupid in Toronto. Rob Ford would easily have won reëlection had he not dropped out due to illness. His profoundly unlikeable surrogate, Doug, came in second. He didn't lose by a huge margin, and he finished well ahead of the only left-leaning candidate.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 9:17 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
cotton dress sock mentioned, "Right, and the reality is, North York people mostly stay in North York..."
[ CITATION MISSING ]
I'm calling bologna on that marlarkey.
posted by Construction Concern at 9:17 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
[ CITATION MISSING ]
I'm calling bologna on that marlarkey.
posted by Construction Concern at 9:17 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
You just don't see tons of North York people in town other than on Saturdays at the club. Most Mississaugans I know are afraid of Toronto (! - other than Liberty Village) and think it's dirty (personal communication, July 4th, 2016).
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:21 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I was visiting Toronto when the Pulse massacre occurred. Maybe it was partially that and maybe it was partially that my wife and I weren't stared at (she's Filipino and I'm Caucasian and we feel like many Americans stare at us whenever we're outside Hawaii) but Toronto seemed like paradise on earth. It's probably a case of "the grass is always greener" but Toronto felt safe, clean, friendly and diverse.
I love Chicago too but the only one of those adjectives I'd apply to that city is friendly. Chicago is great for an entirely different set of reasons.
But, yeah, Toronto is the only city I've visited outside of Honolulu where we felt as welcome as we do in Honolulu.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love Chicago too but the only one of those adjectives I'd apply to that city is friendly. Chicago is great for an entirely different set of reasons.
But, yeah, Toronto is the only city I've visited outside of Honolulu where we felt as welcome as we do in Honolulu.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Joey Michaels- I can understand why the negative tone here about Toronto might be confusing. Toronto is indeed wonderful in so many ways and I think we should celebrate that. Really we're just sour on that particular kind of Toronto and Canadian smugness that's like "Hey we're a multicultural paradise- unlike those racist Americans!!!". This smug attitude goes hand-in-hand with not being able to acknowledge our own faults. To me it seems deeply insecure.
posted by beau jackson at 10:04 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by beau jackson at 10:04 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
At this point even Barrie, Oakville, and Ajax, the old 905s, are all realistically described the suburbs of the GTA. Milton especially. The six cities/boroughs, of which North York is one, have been functionally integrated as Toronto for decades, even prior to amalgamation. If you live south of Steels, west of the Rouge and east of Etobicoke creek, you're a big-city Torontonian, culturally, and have been since the seventies, at least.
posted by bonehead at 10:05 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 10:05 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
How are North York, Oshawa, or Milton integrated into (Metro) Toronto's city culture? Do they share its concerns and interests?
Milton, definitely and absolutely not. It's still engaged in the kind of unchecked, poorly-planned sprawling development that Hazel McCallion later admitted had been a mistake in Mississauga. The mayor of Milton has held office for 20 terms (he's now Ontario's longest-serving sitting mayor) and doesn't understand how to send an email (source: I know people who work in his office). That's not a knock against his age - it's a knock against the fact that he refuses to hear new ideas and still thinks he can run the town like it's still 1980, the year in which he was first elected. Developments get approved at the drop of a hat, no matter how poorly planned they are, and no matter how shoddy the new build housing stock is going to be. The Town just wants to collect the nominal one-time development charge (DC) so they "don't have to raise taxes," future consequences be damned. This passage from this report on sprawl (pdf) describes Milton exactly:
*slow clap*
North York is part of Toronto, post-amalgamation, and directly connected to it in many ways, physically (as Construction Concern points out - and connected to it politically (Mel Lastman had been mayor of North York prior to becoming mayor of Toronto).
Oshawa, like Milton, is its own municipality as well.
I, a downtown dweller, live and work with lots of people in downtown Toronto who are from Burlington, Brampton, Oshawa, or Pickering, Ajax and Whitby.
Some are folks who initially lived downtown (as younger adults entering the workforce, for example) before moving out there to start families or buy cheaper property, whlie others are lifelong suburbanites.
The former tend to have more of a connection to and appreciation for the stuff the city has to offer (I've heard more than a few whistful comments like "I wish I was still downtown..."), but both groups can treat the city as a necessary evil that offers the kind of employment they need, or is the place where you go to watch a game or a concert and then GTFO.
There are also layers of regional municipalities (Peel, Durham, and Halton) which encompass some of the ones I've mentioned above (the regions handle certain shared services like policing, for example).
tl;dr: People have complicated feelings about it, and the political relationship between GTA municipalities, Toronto itself, and the province are complicated to begin with...especially when it comes to transportation and infrastructure - and even more particularly in the realm of mass transit.
I'd also agree that Toronto smugness is beyond irritating.
On the other hand...when this city gets me down, I try to remember this experience.posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Milton, definitely and absolutely not. It's still engaged in the kind of unchecked, poorly-planned sprawling development that Hazel McCallion later admitted had been a mistake in Mississauga. The mayor of Milton has held office for 20 terms (he's now Ontario's longest-serving sitting mayor) and doesn't understand how to send an email (source: I know people who work in his office). That's not a knock against his age - it's a knock against the fact that he refuses to hear new ideas and still thinks he can run the town like it's still 1980, the year in which he was first elected. Developments get approved at the drop of a hat, no matter how poorly planned they are, and no matter how shoddy the new build housing stock is going to be. The Town just wants to collect the nominal one-time development charge (DC) so they "don't have to raise taxes," future consequences be damned. This passage from this report on sprawl (pdf) describes Milton exactly:
Clearly, DCs are valuable revenue sources, but as currently designed in most municipalities they do not work to encourage more compact and sustainable development patterns. The type of urban form, whether compact or sprawling, will affect not only current infrastructure costs, but also future maintenance and renewal requirements. However, little consideration is usually given to the requirements of a particular type of urban form in terms of the future financial impacts. Development charges are not used to cover ongoing maintenance costs, but policy-makers need to be aware of the immense lifecycle costs of maintaining the infrastructure and services necessitated by inefficient growth patterns. This raises the importance of using development charges as a growth management tool to encourage more efficient growth patterns. If development charges are not restructured to meet current planning objectives for more intensive and compact urban growth, not only are municipalities squandering a valuable growth management tool, but they are missing an opportunity to reduce their future infrastructure costs.True, if tangential story: Milton flew the pride flag outside of Town Hall for the first time this year because of the Orlando massacre. The staff who raised it had it upside down for the first couple of days.
*slow clap*
North York is part of Toronto, post-amalgamation, and directly connected to it in many ways, physically (as Construction Concern points out - and connected to it politically (Mel Lastman had been mayor of North York prior to becoming mayor of Toronto).
Oshawa, like Milton, is its own municipality as well.
I, a downtown dweller, live and work with lots of people in downtown Toronto who are from Burlington, Brampton, Oshawa, or Pickering, Ajax and Whitby.
Some are folks who initially lived downtown (as younger adults entering the workforce, for example) before moving out there to start families or buy cheaper property, whlie others are lifelong suburbanites.
The former tend to have more of a connection to and appreciation for the stuff the city has to offer (I've heard more than a few whistful comments like "I wish I was still downtown..."), but both groups can treat the city as a necessary evil that offers the kind of employment they need, or is the place where you go to watch a game or a concert and then GTFO.
There are also layers of regional municipalities (Peel, Durham, and Halton) which encompass some of the ones I've mentioned above (the regions handle certain shared services like policing, for example).
tl;dr: People have complicated feelings about it, and the political relationship between GTA municipalities, Toronto itself, and the province are complicated to begin with...especially when it comes to transportation and infrastructure - and even more particularly in the realm of mass transit.
I'd also agree that Toronto smugness is beyond irritating.
On the other hand...when this city gets me down, I try to remember this experience.posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:12 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
> both groups can treat the city as a necessary evil that offers the kind of employment they need, or is the place where you go to watch a game or a concert and then GTFO.
That's my godmother, who has lived in Newmarket since the '60s and to this day regards everything south of the 401 as a crime-ridden cesspool full of those people, who will do their best to kill you if you stray more than a half-block away from whatever tourist attraction or business you are grudgingly being forced to visit. She will die angry that she lived long enough to see Newmarket change from a town where almost everyone was white to a city where many people aren't.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:32 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's my godmother, who has lived in Newmarket since the '60s and to this day regards everything south of the 401 as a crime-ridden cesspool full of those people, who will do their best to kill you if you stray more than a half-block away from whatever tourist attraction or business you are grudgingly being forced to visit. She will die angry that she lived long enough to see Newmarket change from a town where almost everyone was white to a city where many people aren't.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:32 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
both groups can treat the city as a necessary evil that offers the kind of employment they need, or is the place where you go to watch a game or a concert and then GTFO.
This is what I was trying to get at. People dip in and out, out of necessity or for occasional fun, but balk when it comes to funding the infrastructure required to even keep up with development, never mind anticipating future needs. Many young suburbanites I know gravitate to the controlled "city" experience that mostly replicates suburbia (e.g. Liberty Village) as a (temporary) rite of passage. It may be they'd stick around if there were more family-oriented housing in the centre (e.g. not a series of $300-400k 1-beds), but I doubt it, people are still very attached to the idea of having land, privacy, and space.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:44 AM on July 4, 2016
This is what I was trying to get at. People dip in and out, out of necessity or for occasional fun, but balk when it comes to funding the infrastructure required to even keep up with development, never mind anticipating future needs. Many young suburbanites I know gravitate to the controlled "city" experience that mostly replicates suburbia (e.g. Liberty Village) as a (temporary) rite of passage. It may be they'd stick around if there were more family-oriented housing in the centre (e.g. not a series of $300-400k 1-beds), but I doubt it, people are still very attached to the idea of having land, privacy, and space.
posted by cotton dress sock at 10:44 AM on July 4, 2016
I will accept complaints about the stranglehold of Old Stock Elites, and how our multiculturalism hasn't filtered up through the local power structures. 100% legit. The article could've touched more on that.
That aside, my god, it is offensive how so many swaths of people - downtowners, inner-suburbians, 905ers, the rest of Canada - deeply resent the notion that Toronto is a great city.
I felt this was a decent article that was mostly fair. Where's the smugness?
posted by pmv at 10:51 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
That aside, my god, it is offensive how so many swaths of people - downtowners, inner-suburbians, 905ers, the rest of Canada - deeply resent the notion that Toronto is a great city.
I felt this was a decent article that was mostly fair. Where's the smugness?
posted by pmv at 10:51 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
but I doubt it, people are still very attached to the idea of having land, privacy, and space
This is why my husband has pretty much ruled out moving back to the city. He is someone very attached to being a homeowner and having that sort of autonomy. I'm less so. I mean, I am a joint homeowner for the first time in my life in my late 30s, and it's neat to think, "Hey, wow, this belongs to me!" But having been a renter for 90% of my adult life, I'm not that hung up on needing to own. He grew up in the country and I grew up in the suburbs, so being able to live very centrally in TO would be important to us. *shrug* As that's not gonna happen, we make do with visiting a lot.
posted by Kitteh at 10:58 AM on July 4, 2016
This is why my husband has pretty much ruled out moving back to the city. He is someone very attached to being a homeowner and having that sort of autonomy. I'm less so. I mean, I am a joint homeowner for the first time in my life in my late 30s, and it's neat to think, "Hey, wow, this belongs to me!" But having been a renter for 90% of my adult life, I'm not that hung up on needing to own. He grew up in the country and I grew up in the suburbs, so being able to live very centrally in TO would be important to us. *shrug* As that's not gonna happen, we make do with visiting a lot.
posted by Kitteh at 10:58 AM on July 4, 2016
If I only had a penguin, if the measuring rod is housing style and historical naming, Rosedale would be a "suburb" of the old city, too. But Toronto's Rosedale neibourhood is not a suburb in any meaningful sense. Two hundred years ago, sure, but not now.
How so? Development style might be a better term than housing style. Rosedale is much more walkable than Etobicoke and is filled with shops that open onto a sidewalk not a giant parking lot. The houses are bigger than houses in some downtown neighbourhoods (But not others e.g. Annex), but I don't think housing size is the thing exactly. The houses are built relatively close together.
And I don't know what you mean by historical naming. Yes, there are all sorts of places (leaside) that were not once part of Toronto, but typically we call suburbs those that weren't part of Toronto at the time of the most recent amalgamation (I think the previous joinings were acutally annexations not amalgamations).
Anyway, I think the idea of the suburb is obviously more of a thing one agrees upon than a thing that can be objectively true or not, and in Toronto it IS more or less agreed upon that North York, Etobicoke, Scarbeorough, are suburbs. ANd of course it is agreed upon that they are part of the City of Toronto. So yes, they're both.
North York shares Toronto's interests and concerns while Milton and Oshawa don't. Why? North York is served by the TTC, while Milton and Oshawa aren't. The TTC is one of the major concerns of the City of Toronto. Sure political boundaries are abitrary in their location, but once they're in place they matter.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:58 AM on July 4, 2016
How so? Development style might be a better term than housing style. Rosedale is much more walkable than Etobicoke and is filled with shops that open onto a sidewalk not a giant parking lot. The houses are bigger than houses in some downtown neighbourhoods (But not others e.g. Annex), but I don't think housing size is the thing exactly. The houses are built relatively close together.
And I don't know what you mean by historical naming. Yes, there are all sorts of places (leaside) that were not once part of Toronto, but typically we call suburbs those that weren't part of Toronto at the time of the most recent amalgamation (I think the previous joinings were acutally annexations not amalgamations).
Anyway, I think the idea of the suburb is obviously more of a thing one agrees upon than a thing that can be objectively true or not, and in Toronto it IS more or less agreed upon that North York, Etobicoke, Scarbeorough, are suburbs. ANd of course it is agreed upon that they are part of the City of Toronto. So yes, they're both.
North York shares Toronto's interests and concerns while Milton and Oshawa don't. Why? North York is served by the TTC, while Milton and Oshawa aren't. The TTC is one of the major concerns of the City of Toronto. Sure political boundaries are abitrary in their location, but once they're in place they matter.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:58 AM on July 4, 2016
It may be they'd stick around if there were more family-oriented housing in the centre (e.g. not a series of $300k 1-beds)
And yet, there is affordable—but certainly not fashionalbe—family-oriented housing just a few blocks away on Jameson. Elementary and high school just walking distance away. Of course, you then would have to rent and give up the prestige of being a homeowner™. Also, your kids would have to go to school with all those Tibetans. I have nothing against them, I just don't want my kids growing up immersed in their violent culture.
Granted, bedbugs are a real concern. I have to suppress the urge to yell at anyone who picks up a piece of furniture from the sidewalk.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:58 AM on July 4, 2016
And yet, there is affordable—but certainly not fashionalbe—family-oriented housing just a few blocks away on Jameson. Elementary and high school just walking distance away. Of course, you then would have to rent and give up the prestige of being a homeowner™. Also, your kids would have to go to school with all those Tibetans. I have nothing against them, I just don't want my kids growing up immersed in their violent culture.
Granted, bedbugs are a real concern. I have to suppress the urge to yell at anyone who picks up a piece of furniture from the sidewalk.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:58 AM on July 4, 2016
This gay Toronto cop sent an open letter to Pride Toronto about the Black Lives Matter protest.
"Exclusion does not promote inclusion."
posted by Carol Anne at 11:04 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Exclusion does not promote inclusion."
posted by Carol Anne at 11:04 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
People dip in and out, out of necessity or for occasional fun, but balk when it comes to funding the infrastructure required to even keep up with development, never mind anticipating future needs.
Tax flight has plagued many US cities. Toronto (and Ottawa's) most unlikely accidental savior was Mike Harris' amalgamation. He did it to strip the cities of money, but its major lasting effect, imo, was preventing tax flight. I'd argue that amalgamation was the major policy difference that has largely prevented Toronto from turning into Chicago.
That's why Metro Toronto had to became a city, logistically, mostly to allow services, not only transit but also water, sewer and roads, to be managed cohesively. Ultimately, as the suburbs become more integrated, this pressure is why the GTA will likely be forced into a stronger union as well, eventually. This pressure is what will drive that process. I don't we'll see that for a decade or two yet though, and it may happen in waves, rather than all at once.
posted by bonehead at 11:13 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tax flight has plagued many US cities. Toronto (and Ottawa's) most unlikely accidental savior was Mike Harris' amalgamation. He did it to strip the cities of money, but its major lasting effect, imo, was preventing tax flight. I'd argue that amalgamation was the major policy difference that has largely prevented Toronto from turning into Chicago.
That's why Metro Toronto had to became a city, logistically, mostly to allow services, not only transit but also water, sewer and roads, to be managed cohesively. Ultimately, as the suburbs become more integrated, this pressure is why the GTA will likely be forced into a stronger union as well, eventually. This pressure is what will drive that process. I don't we'll see that for a decade or two yet though, and it may happen in waves, rather than all at once.
posted by bonehead at 11:13 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
pmv: That aside, my god, it is offensive how so many swaths of people - downtowners, inner-suburbians, 905ers, the rest of Canada - deeply resent the notion that Toronto is a great city.
We don't resent that Toronto is a great city - we just resent that they talk about it. :-)
posted by clawsoon at 11:13 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
We don't resent that Toronto is a great city - we just resent that they talk about it. :-)
posted by clawsoon at 11:13 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yea pmv, the rest of the country, myself included have been disdained upon by smug Torontonians for too long. Just yesterday a good friend said he always pities people that are leaving after visiting because we have to return to our homes. Dude, if I wanted to live in TO, I would.
posted by Gor-ella at 11:32 AM on July 4, 2016
posted by Gor-ella at 11:32 AM on July 4, 2016
Toronto is amazing, it keeps draining all the talent from the other Canadian cities. Where does aspect of "cosmopolitanism" enter the author's calculus? What do you think happens to the other cities?
posted by polymodus at 11:36 AM on July 4, 2016
posted by polymodus at 11:36 AM on July 4, 2016
Toronto is amazing, it keeps draining all the talent from the other Canadian cities.
Funny.... ex-Torontonians make up a bigger block of my Vancouver group of friends than probably any other place... they don't seem to miss it much either.
posted by Cosine at 11:48 AM on July 4, 2016
Funny.... ex-Torontonians make up a bigger block of my Vancouver group of friends than probably any other place... they don't seem to miss it much either.
posted by Cosine at 11:48 AM on July 4, 2016
polymodus: Toronto is amazing, it keeps draining all the talent from the other Canadian cities.
That's not unique to Toronto. There's a rural-to-urban migration of economic opportunity and talent that's been happening all over the world. In Canada, Vancouver is also a recipient.
posted by clawsoon at 11:50 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's not unique to Toronto. There's a rural-to-urban migration of economic opportunity and talent that's been happening all over the world. In Canada, Vancouver is also a recipient.
posted by clawsoon at 11:50 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
So in some summary Toronto is a pretty nice place but its transit could be improved. That is everywhere I've ever lived.
posted by Damienmce at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Damienmce at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
I thought Winnipeg was the Chicago of the North not Toronto.
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:09 PM on July 4, 2016
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:09 PM on July 4, 2016
I don't know much about Toronto except that I went there for a weekend once, saw Einstein On The Beach (truly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for me), saw a bunch of Picasso paintings in real life that I'd only ever seen in books before, had some excellent food, and got a lovely little tour by PinkMoose. It felt like a city to me, but I certainly wasn't there long enough to form any lasting impression.
Is Toronto suffering from the same housing price inflation that is currently killing Vancouver as a city for actual people to live in?
posted by hippybear at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2016
Is Toronto suffering from the same housing price inflation that is currently killing Vancouver as a city for actual people to live in?
posted by hippybear at 12:16 PM on July 4, 2016
It's not on the level of Vancouver but it's getting there. Vancouver and Toronto are #1 and #2 in terms of housing prices in Canada, respectively.
posted by beau jackson at 12:26 PM on July 4, 2016
posted by beau jackson at 12:26 PM on July 4, 2016
Is Toronto suffering from the same housing price inflation that is currently killing Vancouver as a city for actual people to live in?
It's a work in progress.
I went there for a weekend once, saw Einstein On The Beach
*kicks self*
My sister-in-law and husband were in from Spokane last week, and we toured with them around Toronto (he'd never been). It was nice to be a tourist in your own city and remember that there's stuff you take for granted sometimes.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:28 PM on July 4, 2016
It's a work in progress.
I went there for a weekend once, saw Einstein On The Beach
*kicks self*
My sister-in-law and husband were in from Spokane last week, and we toured with them around Toronto (he'd never been). It was nice to be a tourist in your own city and remember that there's stuff you take for granted sometimes.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:28 PM on July 4, 2016
I'm kind of curious, when people from out of town do come, where do you take them? I find Toronto lacking in actual tourist sites to visit which I think is used as a knock against the city's greatness (my list: Niagara falls, CN Tower, Pacific Mall, AGO/ROM only if there is a special exhibit at the time, Toronto Zoo if they have kids, and Pioneer Village).
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:44 PM on July 4, 2016
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:44 PM on July 4, 2016
Ya, I think of Toronto as being a great place to live, but not so much of a tourist trap. Of all my international visitors the thing they rave the most about is when I give them a general route to walk, a suggestion of a few places to eat/shops to duck in, and they get to just experience so much as a local would (and funnily enough, not treated as a tourist because you can't really tell who the tourists are).
You forgot the islands on your list. One of the best part of visiting Toronto is leaving it for the islands.
posted by saucysault at 1:53 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
You forgot the islands on your list. One of the best part of visiting Toronto is leaving it for the islands.
posted by saucysault at 1:53 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of curious, when people from out of town do come, where do you take them?
Robarts Library!
/half-a-hamburger
posted by avocet at 2:11 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Robarts Library!
/half-a-hamburger
posted by avocet at 2:11 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
That aside, my god, it is offensive how so many swaths of people - downtowners, inner-suburbians, 905ers, the rest of Canada - deeply resent the notion that Toronto is a great city.
And yet people from the suburbs and almost all of 905 area code will almost always say they are from Toronto when talking to anybody other than a Torontonian. (There was a time when we were all 416!)
posted by srboisvert at 2:17 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
And yet people from the suburbs and almost all of 905 area code will almost always say they are from Toronto when talking to anybody other than a Torontonian. (There was a time when we were all 416!)
posted by srboisvert at 2:17 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Ambition at odds with stinginess; imagination stymied by parochialism."
Pretty much, although I think Canada does do some things the right way compared to the US. One reason for the hate-on in the piece, by the way, could be Chicago's epidemic of gun violence and mayhem
posted by My Dad at 2:21 PM on July 4, 2016
Pretty much, although I think Canada does do some things the right way compared to the US. One reason for the hate-on in the piece, by the way, could be Chicago's epidemic of gun violence and mayhem
posted by My Dad at 2:21 PM on July 4, 2016
the rest of Canada
People from Ontario always assume the rest of Canada hates Toronto as much as they do. The rest of Canada does not hate Toronto. In British Columbia, for example, we tend to hate Vancouver.
posted by My Dad at 2:23 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
People from Ontario always assume the rest of Canada hates Toronto as much as they do. The rest of Canada does not hate Toronto. In British Columbia, for example, we tend to hate Vancouver.
posted by My Dad at 2:23 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Compared to the United States, Canada seems to cherry pick its potential immigrants -- and quite successfully.
Too bad it doesn't let all of them do the jobs they actually trained to do. Many are happy to make the sacrifice for their kids, but really, there a few too many taxi-driving engineers, x-ray tech / doctors, etc
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:23 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Too bad it doesn't let all of them do the jobs they actually trained to do. Many are happy to make the sacrifice for their kids, but really, there a few too many taxi-driving engineers, x-ray tech / doctors, etc
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:23 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Toronto's not quite all that in not being quite all that, either.
That proposed highway would have destroyed some decent neighbourhoods. But only Toronto would commemorate not building something. It’s proud of what it hasn’t done.
Um, no, come to Boston, Mr. Humblebragger. There's a large mural on what is now the Cambridge MicroCenter that commemorates a successful citizen battle against I-695, an inner ring road that would have destroyed large swaths of Boston, Cambridge and Somerville (for that matter, when I go downtown, I get on the Orange Line subway, built with the money we saved when the I-95 extension, which would have connected with I-695, was cancelled).
posted by adamg at 3:01 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
That proposed highway would have destroyed some decent neighbourhoods. But only Toronto would commemorate not building something. It’s proud of what it hasn’t done.
Um, no, come to Boston, Mr. Humblebragger. There's a large mural on what is now the Cambridge MicroCenter that commemorates a successful citizen battle against I-695, an inner ring road that would have destroyed large swaths of Boston, Cambridge and Somerville (for that matter, when I go downtown, I get on the Orange Line subway, built with the money we saved when the I-95 extension, which would have connected with I-695, was cancelled).
posted by adamg at 3:01 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm kind of curious, when people from out of town do come, where do you take them?
Oh! There were a whole bunch of suggestions in some recent AskMes, here and here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:04 PM on July 4, 2016
Oh! There were a whole bunch of suggestions in some recent AskMes, here and here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:04 PM on July 4, 2016
While Rob Ford has made the politics around transit much much worse than they had to be, it is completely wrong to blame him for the end of Transit City. Transit City was indefinitely "postponed" by McGuinty before Ford was ever elected.
You're saying you imagine a line in there, a imaginary bound, that splits that into city and non-city? I believe you if you say the line is there, I guess. Is it a very meaningful line?
From the perspective of old timers, it isn't a line, it's a cliff! Hog's Hollow, aka the City Limits, aka the West Don River. But whatever.. Town and Country Square renamed itself Centre Point, and for that reason the argument is pure semantics :P
posted by Chuckles at 4:08 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
You're saying you imagine a line in there, a imaginary bound, that splits that into city and non-city? I believe you if you say the line is there, I guess. Is it a very meaningful line?
From the perspective of old timers, it isn't a line, it's a cliff! Hog's Hollow, aka the City Limits, aka the West Don River. But whatever.. Town and Country Square renamed itself Centre Point, and for that reason the argument is pure semantics :P
posted by Chuckles at 4:08 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
You forgot the islands on your list. One of the best part of visiting Toronto is leaving it for the islands.
I like the islands but can't stand the lineups for the ferries in the summer.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:02 PM on July 4, 2016
I like the islands but can't stand the lineups for the ferries in the summer.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:02 PM on July 4, 2016
Huh. I had forgotten that McGuinty postponed Transit City. This clusterfuck of a stew has many chefs indeed.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:32 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:32 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
From Chuckles's link: Former McGuinty cabinet minister George Smitherman said the delays give the city needed breathing space to implement the expansion plans, avoiding “the disastrous approach we saw” on the St. Clair Ave. streetcar renovations.
“That said, I fought for (the so-called Transit City proposals) when I was at Queen’s Park,” Smitherman said, “and as mayor I’ll insist senior levels of government play their role in building the city we want.”
Candidate and city councillor Rob Ford said he never supported the Eglinton Ave. and Finch Ave. plans in the first place and would not be disappointed to see them die.
“I’m not a fan of street cars,” he said, also citing the St. Clair Ave. project, which went close to three times over its $43 million budget and took years longer to build than scheduled.
*head desk*
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:37 PM on July 4, 2016
“That said, I fought for (the so-called Transit City proposals) when I was at Queen’s Park,” Smitherman said, “and as mayor I’ll insist senior levels of government play their role in building the city we want.”
Candidate and city councillor Rob Ford said he never supported the Eglinton Ave. and Finch Ave. plans in the first place and would not be disappointed to see them die.
“I’m not a fan of street cars,” he said, also citing the St. Clair Ave. project, which went close to three times over its $43 million budget and took years longer to build than scheduled.
*head desk*
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:37 PM on July 4, 2016
Living in Montreal, which is still growing (albeit much more slowly), I get the impression that in a few short generations Canada will be bizarro Europe- All the population will live in concentrated, big cities that are spread over an incredibly vast mix of undeveloped, semi-developed and abandoned land. I imagine a lot of the countryside will empty out as our cities grow richer, Toronto in particular.
I do think he oversells the city a bit. A lot of its success is in a ruthless, American capitalist free-for-all attitude. That's what my friends tell me. It's why they say they moved there in the first place. It's a good place to chase the Canadian dream as they see it.
posted by constantinescharity at 5:45 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do think he oversells the city a bit. A lot of its success is in a ruthless, American capitalist free-for-all attitude. That's what my friends tell me. It's why they say they moved there in the first place. It's a good place to chase the Canadian dream as they see it.
posted by constantinescharity at 5:45 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I like the islands but can't stand the lineups for the ferries in the summer.
If you buy tickets in books of 10, you don't need to wait in line at all. There's even a booth just inside on the far right that will sell you them right then and there, and you skip the line completely.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 5:53 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you buy tickets in books of 10, you don't need to wait in line at all. There's even a booth just inside on the far right that will sell you them right then and there, and you skip the line completely.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 5:53 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you buy tickets in books of 10, you don't need to wait in line at all. There's even a booth just inside on the far right that will sell you them right then and there, and you skip the line completely.
Good tip! To that I'd add: once inside, peel off to the left and then wait for the Ward's Island ferry and avoid the crush for the Centre Island ferry.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:10 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Good tip! To that I'd add: once inside, peel off to the left and then wait for the Ward's Island ferry and avoid the crush for the Centre Island ferry.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:10 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or go to Hanlan's if you just spent all your bathing suit money on a book of ferry tickets.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:38 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:38 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
The best thing to do with visitors is a little bike ride on the Leslie St Spit. No ferry but still an otherworldly experience just steps from downtown of the county's biggest city. You'll see apocalypse beaches, a Cormorant horror film and maybe even little bunnies. No other big city has anything like it.
posted by beau jackson at 6:49 PM on July 4, 2016
posted by beau jackson at 6:49 PM on July 4, 2016
developers who don't like zoning rulings can appeal to the Ontario Municipal Board, which has historically been a rubber stamp for developers
I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. Planning Politics in Toronto - to the best of my knowledge the only academic study of the OMB's decisions - suggests that the OMB is generally aligned with urban planners over municipalities and developers. This is a short summary of the book.
posted by ripley_ at 7:06 PM on July 4, 2016
I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. Planning Politics in Toronto - to the best of my knowledge the only academic study of the OMB's decisions - suggests that the OMB is generally aligned with urban planners over municipalities and developers. This is a short summary of the book.
posted by ripley_ at 7:06 PM on July 4, 2016
How does Montreal compare with Toronto?
posted by Apocryphon at 7:35 PM on July 4, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 7:35 PM on July 4, 2016
Sorry, I just read this comment more carefully than I did on the subway:
I just looked at it from an airplane last Friday. You're saying you imagine a line in there, a imaginary bound, that splits that into city and non-city? I believe you if you say the line is there, I guess. Is it a very meaningful line? I spent two decades living in Toronto, and there were always boundary snobs trying to tell people from Don Mills they weren't "Torontonians."
And I wanted to clarify that when I say Etobicoke and Scarbeourgh are suburbs, I'm not saying they're not the city and I'm not saying the people who live there are not Torontonians. Some parts of the city are the inner suburbs. Some Torontonians live in the inner suburbs. Saying theses are inner suburbs doesn't not mean they are not part of Toronto, does not mean they are not part of the city and does not mean that the people who live there are Torontonians. I'm sorry if I implied otherwise or was unclear. And yes, people who are in North York are Torontonians who live in the city of Toronto, in the suburban parts of the city. I realize that in many cities "suburban" means "not in the city" but that is not what it means here.
It's precisely because this IS Toronto and these ARE Torontonians that I think it's shameful that it's so inconvenient to get from these inner suburbs to downtown: Because it shouldn't be hard to get from one part of the city to another. I'm not at all bothered if it's a bitch to get here from Mississauga or Brampton or whatever is out east.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:40 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just looked at it from an airplane last Friday. You're saying you imagine a line in there, a imaginary bound, that splits that into city and non-city? I believe you if you say the line is there, I guess. Is it a very meaningful line? I spent two decades living in Toronto, and there were always boundary snobs trying to tell people from Don Mills they weren't "Torontonians."
And I wanted to clarify that when I say Etobicoke and Scarbeourgh are suburbs, I'm not saying they're not the city and I'm not saying the people who live there are not Torontonians. Some parts of the city are the inner suburbs. Some Torontonians live in the inner suburbs. Saying theses are inner suburbs doesn't not mean they are not part of Toronto, does not mean they are not part of the city and does not mean that the people who live there are Torontonians. I'm sorry if I implied otherwise or was unclear. And yes, people who are in North York are Torontonians who live in the city of Toronto, in the suburban parts of the city. I realize that in many cities "suburban" means "not in the city" but that is not what it means here.
It's precisely because this IS Toronto and these ARE Torontonians that I think it's shameful that it's so inconvenient to get from these inner suburbs to downtown: Because it shouldn't be hard to get from one part of the city to another. I'm not at all bothered if it's a bitch to get here from Mississauga or Brampton or whatever is out east.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:40 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Funny.... ex-Torontonians make up a bigger block of my Vancouver group of friends than probably any other place... they don't seem to miss it much either.
But, see (and I don't mean to put people in a no-win scenario), this is the class intersectionality of the phenomenon. For those who the ethics and problematics are at least transparent, as per constantinescharity's comment:
I do think he oversells the city a bit. A lot of its success is in a ruthless, American capitalist free-for-all attitude. That's what my friends tell me. It's why they say they moved there in the first place. It's a good place to chase the Canadian dream as they see it.
That too is privilege, meaning, materially, having the very choice and means to move. This case could be considered parallel to the privilege of rich people "solving" global warming by relocating to a remote area. Conceptually this should be very disturbing, that's all I'm saying.
I had a college grad family acquaintance who decided to live in Victoria, after experiences in Toronto. But the very fact that she could exercise such a choice is indicative of a self-selection and political framing of what even constitutes the problem, etc.
posted by polymodus at 7:54 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
But, see (and I don't mean to put people in a no-win scenario), this is the class intersectionality of the phenomenon. For those who the ethics and problematics are at least transparent, as per constantinescharity's comment:
I do think he oversells the city a bit. A lot of its success is in a ruthless, American capitalist free-for-all attitude. That's what my friends tell me. It's why they say they moved there in the first place. It's a good place to chase the Canadian dream as they see it.
That too is privilege, meaning, materially, having the very choice and means to move. This case could be considered parallel to the privilege of rich people "solving" global warming by relocating to a remote area. Conceptually this should be very disturbing, that's all I'm saying.
I had a college grad family acquaintance who decided to live in Victoria, after experiences in Toronto. But the very fact that she could exercise such a choice is indicative of a self-selection and political framing of what even constitutes the problem, etc.
posted by polymodus at 7:54 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was born and raised south of Bloor St. Scarborough, Etobicoke and Brampton weren't part of Toronto when I was growing up, but they are now. The fact that they are almost criminally under-served by public transit is a damned disgrace.
There are large quadrants of north-east and north-west Toronto that are in desperate need of better transit solutions. Unfortunately, barring an increase in density on the scale of Shenznen in the past twenty years, subways are not the answer. You can get from Neuilly-sur-Seine to Bobigny very effectively by surface routes. It should be the same for Malton and Bayview Village.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:39 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are large quadrants of north-east and north-west Toronto that are in desperate need of better transit solutions. Unfortunately, barring an increase in density on the scale of Shenznen in the past twenty years, subways are not the answer. You can get from Neuilly-sur-Seine to Bobigny very effectively by surface routes. It should be the same for Malton and Bayview Village.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:39 PM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Guardian: "The 40-year hangover: how the 1976 Olympics nearly broke Montreal"
posted by Apocryphon at 1:31 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 1:31 PM on July 6, 2016
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