2.6 million Words of searing equivocation
July 6, 2016 2:02 AM Subscribe
Today the long awaited Iraq Enquiry (universally called The Chilcot Enquiry) is released as the cherry on the knickerbocker glory of recent British Politics.
The enquiry is intended to investigate the 2003 invasion of Iraq, to establish the way decisions were made, to determine what happened and to identify lessons to ensure that in a similar situation in future, the British government is equipped to respond in the most effective manner in the best interests of the country.
Here's what we can expect to see.
Fortunately, of course Sir John has been tweeting about his work so we can all follow along.
Fortunately, of course Sir John has been tweeting about his work so we can all follow along.
Daily Mash: Britain excited to finally find out if Iraq war was a bad idea
posted by MattWPBS at 2:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 2:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [44 favorites]
So, since he's a former MI5/MI6 guy, is it more likely that his patient Smiley-esque normcore approach will get state-supplied hanging rope at wholesale, or that he'll decide that faith in the government is too important to undermine so will drown the whole report in thin gruel?
posted by klangklangston at 2:20 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 2:20 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
I thought they already did this documentary. The key part went something like, "to walk the road of peace, sometimes you have to climb the mountain of conflict... fuckity, bye"
posted by doctoryes at 2:30 AM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by doctoryes at 2:30 AM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
What's this in English?
Is he going to throw Blair under the bus, or is he going to tell everyone it's all fine.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Is he going to throw Blair under the bus, or is he going to tell everyone it's all fine.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Chilcot Report is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think Harry Potter, War and Peace and the Bible all together are big, but that's just peanuts to The Chilcot Report.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:38 AM on July 6, 2016 [45 favorites]
Incidentally, I had meant to include the link to the actual report, which will be here, in (fittingly) 45 minutes.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:43 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:43 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
If you want to get the scale of the report, Caroline Lucas has posted a photo of it here.
Bear in mind this is one copy.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:54 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Bear in mind this is one copy.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:54 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you're able to stream BBC Five Live, it's worthwhile. At the moment it sounds absolute chaos outside the QE2 centre in Westminster. There's protesters, the media, and Westminster Abbey bells ringing constantly for the Westminster School elections.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:07 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MattWPBS at 3:07 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
In all seriousness, why is it so massive?
Maybe they're intending to use it as body armour in future wars.
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:08 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Maybe they're intending to use it as body armour in future wars.
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:08 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
HEADLINE:
Military action was not a last resort.
Intelligence was presented with a certainty that was not justified.
Planning for post-Invasion was completely inadequate.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:12 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Military action was not a last resort.
Intelligence was presented with a certainty that was not justified.
Planning for post-Invasion was completely inadequate.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:12 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
At that length, I hope he's sexed it up to keep readers' attention.
posted by chavenet at 3:18 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:18 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
cherry on the knickerbocker glory of recent British Politics.
I think its more of an Eton Mess.
posted by biffa at 3:18 AM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
I think its more of an Eton Mess.
posted by biffa at 3:18 AM on July 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
At that length, I hope he's sexed it up to keep readers' attention.
So far it sounds like it's going to be quite a gripping read for anyone with an axe to grind against Blair.
I think the fears about a whitewash or cover-up can be pretty much ruled out now.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:21 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
So far it sounds like it's going to be quite a gripping read for anyone with an axe to grind against Blair.
I think the fears about a whitewash or cover-up can be pretty much ruled out now.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:21 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is one of those things that polsci students will argue about for centuries right? Like a British form of metatalk that's playing the long game or something?
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:24 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 3:24 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's a relief to hear such a damning report, but equally upsetting to hear outlined to us what was plain as day to all but the willfully blind in early 2003.
Hillsborough, and now Iraq. Is the age of the establishment whitewash over?
posted by chill at 3:25 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Hillsborough, and now Iraq. Is the age of the establishment whitewash over?
posted by chill at 3:25 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, Corbyn certainly wasn't keen at the time.
Maybe he can just do a find and replace on all of his old speeches to swap out the future tense for the past tense, and do them all again?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:28 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe he can just do a find and replace on all of his old speeches to swap out the future tense for the past tense, and do them all again?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:28 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
"We do not agree that hindsight is required". Quite.
posted by chill at 3:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by chill at 3:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Not getting the vibe that he's telling us anything we don't already know (though I'm sure there will be some interesting stuff in there). Torn between finding it nice to hear what lots of us were saying all along being spoken in measured tones by an Establishment elder, and gloom about the timing with regard to the Labour Party's internal difficulties.
posted by Mocata at 3:30 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mocata at 3:30 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cool. When do we arrest the fucker for war crimes?
posted by Optamystic at 3:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 3:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
Someone just put it at work - "Do you think he mis-read the Don't Blame Anyone memo as Blame Everyone?"
posted by MattWPBS at 3:33 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by MattWPBS at 3:33 AM on July 6, 2016
When do we arrest the fucker for war crimes?
The going theory is that we can't. Whilst he almost certainly lied multiple times to drum up support, Blair is essentially free to continue to pass go, collect £200 etc. Individual servicemen may be prosecuted but the architect's lapdog will continue to roam free until old age catches up with him.
posted by longbaugh at 3:36 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
The going theory is that we can't. Whilst he almost certainly lied multiple times to drum up support, Blair is essentially free to continue to pass go, collect £200 etc. Individual servicemen may be prosecuted but the architect's lapdog will continue to roam free until old age catches up with him.
posted by longbaugh at 3:36 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
The report: a litany of damning verdicts.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:37 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:37 AM on July 6, 2016
Back in 9 days...
posted by longbaugh at 3:38 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 3:38 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ex-diplomat Craig Murray reminds us who the establishment stooge panel who created the report are - they include a jogging pal of Alastair Campbell's.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:39 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:39 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
So pretty much what the dogs in the street have always known - a war started on lies.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:39 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:39 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Quick Ctrl F doesn't have anything pertinent to UK politicians in Exec Summary for "crime" or "murder" (mentions "crimewave" post invasion, and "murders" done in chaos after war).
posted by Gratishades at 3:39 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by Gratishades at 3:39 AM on July 6, 2016
As far as I can tell, the PLP hasn't dissolved into a pile of shrieking nothingness in the wake of this live briefing. At least not yet.
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:42 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:42 AM on July 6, 2016
The Chilcot report... Statement by Sir John Chilcot: 6 July 2016 (pdf)
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:44 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:44 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Coda Tronca: Ex-diplomat Craig Murray reminds us who the establishment stooge panel who created the report are - they include a jogging pal of Alastair Campbell's.
Well, he's looking stupid now with saying it was going to be a whitewash. Anything but that.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:44 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, he's looking stupid now with saying it was going to be a whitewash. Anything but that.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:44 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Good Lord, even the Exec Summary is 150 pages.
Today's just delivered Chilcot Statement - a summary of the summary - is 12 pages.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:50 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Today's just delivered Chilcot Statement - a summary of the summary - is 12 pages.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:50 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is there a good summary that fits in a tweet?
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Earlier this week in the Guardian, an interesting article on the real architect of this terrible tragedy and his, shall we say asymmetrical relationship with Tony.
posted by Myeral at 4:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Myeral at 4:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
How many of the current Labour Party and Conservative party voted in favour?
(I'll go and crunch data later if no one's done that yet)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:03 AM on July 6, 2016
(I'll go and crunch data later if no one's done that yet)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:03 AM on July 6, 2016
Is there a good summary that fits in a tweet?"Turns out Corbyn was right, but we'll still have to roll him because he's unelectable"—PLP members who would lose to Corbyn in a vote.
posted by Sonny Jim at 4:11 AM on July 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
Blair's response to the Chilcot report... full statement
He really should walk away. Never say another word. Spend the rest of his days working as a hospital orderly in a Baghdad hospital.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:14 AM on July 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
He really should walk away. Never say another word. Spend the rest of his days working as a hospital orderly in a Baghdad hospital.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:14 AM on July 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
Just this guy, y'know - here. 254 Labour MPs voted "Aye".
posted by longbaugh at 4:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by longbaugh at 4:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
He really should walk away.
He should be walking into the dock.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:22 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
He should be walking into the dock.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:22 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hillsborough, and now Iraq. Is the age of the establishment whitewash over?
I don't think so - regarding the Troubles there are still uncomfortable truths to come out about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and the murder of Pat Finucane - these are only two notable cases of state collusion with terrorist groups. The police, prosecutors, and judges responsible for the miscarriages of justice in the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six cases also escaped punishment.
In non-Troubles cases, only one sergeant was punished for the Battle of the Beanfield, and the victims weren't awarded costs by the judges, so they essentially got nothing. Post-Hillsborough, there's talk of a public inquiry into the Battle of Orgreave as well. No word of anything about use of excessive force against the 2010 student protests. The inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes was a whitewash too. There was also the case of the undercover agent provocateur.
In short there's plenty of British establishment muck still out there.
posted by kersplunk at 4:25 AM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
I don't think so - regarding the Troubles there are still uncomfortable truths to come out about the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and the murder of Pat Finucane - these are only two notable cases of state collusion with terrorist groups. The police, prosecutors, and judges responsible for the miscarriages of justice in the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six cases also escaped punishment.
In non-Troubles cases, only one sergeant was punished for the Battle of the Beanfield, and the victims weren't awarded costs by the judges, so they essentially got nothing. Post-Hillsborough, there's talk of a public inquiry into the Battle of Orgreave as well. No word of anything about use of excessive force against the 2010 student protests. The inquest into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes was a whitewash too. There was also the case of the undercover agent provocateur.
In short there's plenty of British establishment muck still out there.
posted by kersplunk at 4:25 AM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
Good luck with your hopes the report would "lay to rest allegations of bad faith, lies or deceit", Tony.
posted by rongorongo at 4:26 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by rongorongo at 4:26 AM on July 6, 2016
Blair's response to the Chilcot report... full statementWow. Judging by the tone of that statement, I'm expecting Blair to also announce this afternoon that he is having his consciousness uploaded into a continent-sized robotic version of himself, which will orbit the earth and smite unbelievers with high-energy particle beams projected from its terrifying weaponised eyes, and that he is doing this because it is the logical and right thing to do.
posted by Sonny Jim at 4:26 AM on July 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
It would be kind of cool to run sorting algorithms over that report to see what kinds of patterns it yields.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
From a *very* hasty paste job: 2,687,543 words total (so I might have missed some). 73,386 unique words identified by my quick script. (I might have made a mistake somewhere, and this includes some symbols.). The top 1000 words in the complete document include:
5193 occurrences: mr blair
3731: saddam
3046: weapons
2857: bush
2433: wmd
2004: mr straw
1212: postconflict
755: invasion
329: civilians
320 each: de‑ba’athification; ballistic; blix
posted by Quagkapi at 4:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
5193 occurrences: mr blair
3731: saddam
3046: weapons
2857: bush
2433: wmd
2004: mr straw
1212: postconflict
755: invasion
329: civilians
320 each: de‑ba’athification; ballistic; blix
posted by Quagkapi at 4:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Blair is essentially free to continue to pass go, collect £200 etc.
or collect £5m
posted by ennui.bz at 4:33 AM on July 6, 2016
or collect £5m
posted by ennui.bz at 4:33 AM on July 6, 2016
I wonder what more than 150,000 x " . " would look like.
All that death and destruction, instability, pain and suffering - unnecessary, preventable, and directly the responsibility of men who will never face the justice they deserve. It's unbearable.
posted by billiebee at 4:37 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
All that death and destruction, instability, pain and suffering - unnecessary, preventable, and directly the responsibility of men who will never face the justice they deserve. It's unbearable.
posted by billiebee at 4:37 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Bravo to Corbyn for refusing to share a platform with that creep.
posted by enn at 4:40 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by enn at 4:40 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Annika Cicada: "Is there a good summary that fits in a tweet?"
Blair lied, people died.
(But that's from 2004)
posted by chavenet at 4:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
Blair lied, people died.
(But that's from 2004)
posted by chavenet at 4:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [22 favorites]
To Hague with him. And let all fucking Blairites follow him to the afterlife.
posted by lmfsilva at 4:43 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by lmfsilva at 4:43 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
(If anyone else wants to work with the Chilcot Report words, I've quickly converted the PDFs to text, with no formatting edits. If you'd like it, message me and I'll send you a 17 MB text file link.)
posted by Quagkapi at 4:53 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Quagkapi at 4:53 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
"I will at the same time say why, nonetheless, I believe that it was better to remove Saddam Hussein and why I do not believe this is the cause of the terrorism we see today whether in the Middle East or elsewhere in the world."
Ok Tony, I look forward to hearing that.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:53 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ok Tony, I look forward to hearing that.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:53 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Thanks for the links Longbaugh, but what I was more wondering was about how many of the current parliamant were MPs at the time and how they voted.
I'd guess most of the Tories who were there at the time still are (since they've had an increased majority) whereas there will be many fewer Labour MPs.
Lib Dems and SNP are substantially changed and all voted No anyhow.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:57 AM on July 6, 2016
I'd guess most of the Tories who were there at the time still are (since they've had an increased majority) whereas there will be many fewer Labour MPs.
Lib Dems and SNP are substantially changed and all voted No anyhow.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:57 AM on July 6, 2016
Turns out Corbyn was right
Was Corbyn in any way involved in the decision making? (I mean, he's anti-american and against ever sending UK troops outside the island for any purpose whatsoever, so you'd expect him to vote against it even if he didn't know who the target was.)
posted by effbot at 4:59 AM on July 6, 2016
Was Corbyn in any way involved in the decision making? (I mean, he's anti-american and against ever sending UK troops outside the island for any purpose whatsoever, so you'd expect him to vote against it even if he didn't know who the target was.)
posted by effbot at 4:59 AM on July 6, 2016
All but 2 Conservatives voted Aye.
Including Cameron, Johnson and May. Gove and Leadsom weren't MPs at the time.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:01 AM on July 6, 2016
Including Cameron, Johnson and May. Gove and Leadsom weren't MPs at the time.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:01 AM on July 6, 2016
just this guy y'know - sorry, the latter link allows you to search by current MP but lacks an overall list of serving MPs who voted Aye. I'll see what I can do.
effbot - I don't think Corbyn is "anti-American" so much as he's anti-imperialism. That the two often seem similar is due to the imperialist actions of America.
posted by longbaugh at 5:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
effbot - I don't think Corbyn is "anti-American" so much as he's anti-imperialism. That the two often seem similar is due to the imperialist actions of America.
posted by longbaugh at 5:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
From Wikipedia:
In 2002, Corbyn reported unrest : "there is disquiet...about issues of foreign policy" among some members of the Labour party. He cited "the deployment of troops to Afghanistan and the threat of bombing Iraq" as examples.
He was vehemently opposed to the Iraq War in 2003, and spoke at dozens of anti-war rallies in Britain and overseas.
He helped organise the February anti-Iraq War protest which was claimed to be the largest such protest in British political history.
In 2006, Corbyn was one of 12 Labour MPs to support Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National Party's call for a parliamentary inquiry into the Iraq War.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:04 AM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
In 2002, Corbyn reported unrest : "there is disquiet...about issues of foreign policy" among some members of the Labour party. He cited "the deployment of troops to Afghanistan and the threat of bombing Iraq" as examples.
He was vehemently opposed to the Iraq War in 2003, and spoke at dozens of anti-war rallies in Britain and overseas.
He helped organise the February anti-Iraq War protest which was claimed to be the largest such protest in British political history.
In 2006, Corbyn was one of 12 Labour MPs to support Plaid Cymru and the Scottish National Party's call for a parliamentary inquiry into the Iraq War.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:04 AM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
Thanks, longbaugh.
I started crunching together the two lists (current vs 2003 voters) but real work intervened.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:06 AM on July 6, 2016
I started crunching together the two lists (current vs 2003 voters) but real work intervened.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:06 AM on July 6, 2016
From that SNP Statement:
"After such carnage, people will ask inevitable questions of was conflict inevitable and worthwhile? The answer from Chilcot is undoubtedly no. And who is responsible? The answer is undoubtedly Tony Blair. There must now be a consideration of what political or legal consequences are appropriate for those responsible."
Awwwww snap!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:10 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
"After such carnage, people will ask inevitable questions of was conflict inevitable and worthwhile? The answer from Chilcot is undoubtedly no. And who is responsible? The answer is undoubtedly Tony Blair. There must now be a consideration of what political or legal consequences are appropriate for those responsible."
Awwwww snap!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:10 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
I've done a quick comparison of the names of MPs who voted for the war and the list of current MPs to find the ones in common. Unfortunately the quick and dirty nature of it meant losing their party affiliations, but see who leaps out:
David Amess • Adrian Bailey • Kevin Barron • Henry Bellingham • Hilary Benn • John Bercow • Paul Beresford • Clive Betts • Crispin Blunt • Peter Bottomley • Ben Bradshaw • Graham Brady • Julian Brazier • Chris Bryant • Andy Burnham • Simon Burns • Alistair Burt • David Cameron • Alan Campbell • Gregory Campbell • Christopher Chope • Geoffrey Clifton-Brown • Ann Clwyd • Vernon Coaker • Ann Coffey • Yvette Cooper • Jon Cruddas • Jim Cunningham • Wayne David • Geraint Davies • David Davis • Jonathan Djanogly • Nigel Dodds • Jeffrey Donaldson • Jim Dowd • Alan Duncan • Angela Eagle • Maria Eagle • Louise Ellman • Nigel Evans • Michael Fabricant • Michael Fallon • Paul Farrelly • Frank Field • Mark Field • Jim Fitzpatrick • Caroline Flint • Liam Fox • Mark Francois • Roger Gale • Mike Gapes • Barry Gardiner • Edward Garnier • Nick Gibb • Cheryl Gillan • Roger Godsiff • James Gray • Chris Grayling • Damian Green • Dominic Grieve • Philip Hammond • David Hanson • Harriet Harman • John Hayes • Oliver Heald • John Healey • Mark Hendrick • George Howarth • Gerald Howarth • Lindsay Hoyle • Iain Duncan Smith • Huw Irranca-Davies • Bernard Jenkin • Alan Johnson • Boris Johnson • Helen Jones • Kevan Jones • Gerald Kaufman • Greg Knight • Eleanor Laing • David Lammy • Oliver Letwin • Ivan Lewis • Julian Lewis • Ian Liddell-Grainger • David Lidington • Peter Lilley • Tim Loughton • Fiona Mactaggart • John Mann • Rob Marris • Gordon Marsden • Theresa May • Siobhain McDonagh • Patrick McLoughlin • Michael Meacher • Andrew Mitchell • George Osborne • Owen Paterson • Eric Pickles • Stephen Pound • Mark Prisk • John Redwood • Laurence Robertson • Geoffrey Robinson • Andrew Rosindell • Andrew Selous • Barry Sheerman • Keith Simpson • Andrew Smith • Angela Smith • Nicholas Soames • John Spellar • Caroline Spelman • Gary Streeter • Gisela Stuart • Desmond Swayne • Hugo Swire • Robert Syms • Mark Tami • Gareth Thomas • Gareth Thomas • Stephen Timms • David Tredinnick • Derek Twigg • Stephen Twigg • Andrew Tyrie • Keith Vaz • Tom Watson • John Whittingdale • Bill Wiggin • David Winnick • Rosie Winterton
posted by rory at 5:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
David Amess • Adrian Bailey • Kevin Barron • Henry Bellingham • Hilary Benn • John Bercow • Paul Beresford • Clive Betts • Crispin Blunt • Peter Bottomley • Ben Bradshaw • Graham Brady • Julian Brazier • Chris Bryant • Andy Burnham • Simon Burns • Alistair Burt • David Cameron • Alan Campbell • Gregory Campbell • Christopher Chope • Geoffrey Clifton-Brown • Ann Clwyd • Vernon Coaker • Ann Coffey • Yvette Cooper • Jon Cruddas • Jim Cunningham • Wayne David • Geraint Davies • David Davis • Jonathan Djanogly • Nigel Dodds • Jeffrey Donaldson • Jim Dowd • Alan Duncan • Angela Eagle • Maria Eagle • Louise Ellman • Nigel Evans • Michael Fabricant • Michael Fallon • Paul Farrelly • Frank Field • Mark Field • Jim Fitzpatrick • Caroline Flint • Liam Fox • Mark Francois • Roger Gale • Mike Gapes • Barry Gardiner • Edward Garnier • Nick Gibb • Cheryl Gillan • Roger Godsiff • James Gray • Chris Grayling • Damian Green • Dominic Grieve • Philip Hammond • David Hanson • Harriet Harman • John Hayes • Oliver Heald • John Healey • Mark Hendrick • George Howarth • Gerald Howarth • Lindsay Hoyle • Iain Duncan Smith • Huw Irranca-Davies • Bernard Jenkin • Alan Johnson • Boris Johnson • Helen Jones • Kevan Jones • Gerald Kaufman • Greg Knight • Eleanor Laing • David Lammy • Oliver Letwin • Ivan Lewis • Julian Lewis • Ian Liddell-Grainger • David Lidington • Peter Lilley • Tim Loughton • Fiona Mactaggart • John Mann • Rob Marris • Gordon Marsden • Theresa May • Siobhain McDonagh • Patrick McLoughlin • Michael Meacher • Andrew Mitchell • George Osborne • Owen Paterson • Eric Pickles • Stephen Pound • Mark Prisk • John Redwood • Laurence Robertson • Geoffrey Robinson • Andrew Rosindell • Andrew Selous • Barry Sheerman • Keith Simpson • Andrew Smith • Angela Smith • Nicholas Soames • John Spellar • Caroline Spelman • Gary Streeter • Gisela Stuart • Desmond Swayne • Hugo Swire • Robert Syms • Mark Tami • Gareth Thomas • Gareth Thomas • Stephen Timms • David Tredinnick • Derek Twigg • Stephen Twigg • Andrew Tyrie • Keith Vaz • Tom Watson • John Whittingdale • Bill Wiggin • David Winnick • Rosie Winterton
posted by rory at 5:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Can't believe Tom Watson voted Aye. May he be stripped of his MeFi membership...
posted by longbaugh at 5:17 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 5:17 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Cool. When do we arrest the fucker for war crimes?
Unfortunately only the full security council can initiate prosecutions for starting an illegal aggressive war. So, never.
posted by atrazine at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately only the full security council can initiate prosecutions for starting an illegal aggressive war. So, never.
posted by atrazine at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Whoops, my list missed off Margaret Beckett (L) and Angela Watkinson (C) because they had "Dame" before their names on one of the lists I was comparing to the other. Currently hacking together party-sorted lists...
posted by rory at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by rory at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
All but 2 Conservatives voted Aye.
Including Cameron, Johnson and May. Gove and Leadsom weren't MPs at the time.
Gove was arguing vigorously for Aye as a columnist. I've read, for work purposes, his book Celsius 7/7 (2006) in which he says that the main problem with the occupation was its half-hearted use of 'exemplary' violence: a few more Fallujahs and the country might have been brought to heel.
Seriously, that's his example. He's really into exemplary violence, arguing also that insufficient military repression of the Palestinians would show weakness, that the Gibraltar SAS shootings were a good thing for the same reason etc.
But I imagine he'd like Corbyn to stay on, so he's obviously not as wicked as even the soft left of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
posted by Mocata at 5:24 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Including Cameron, Johnson and May. Gove and Leadsom weren't MPs at the time.
Gove was arguing vigorously for Aye as a columnist. I've read, for work purposes, his book Celsius 7/7 (2006) in which he says that the main problem with the occupation was its half-hearted use of 'exemplary' violence: a few more Fallujahs and the country might have been brought to heel.
Seriously, that's his example. He's really into exemplary violence, arguing also that insufficient military repression of the Palestinians would show weakness, that the Gibraltar SAS shootings were a good thing for the same reason etc.
But I imagine he'd like Corbyn to stay on, so he's obviously not as wicked as even the soft left of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
posted by Mocata at 5:24 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
a few more Fallujahs and the country might have been brought to heel.
That's probably true in the technical sense that overwhelming violent reprisals against entire communities are a proven counter-insurgency strategy.
Of course, they're also monstrous war crimes, specifically prohibited by international law and compatible with a permanent armed occupation rather than establishing a local democracy. So there's that.
posted by atrazine at 5:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
That's probably true in the technical sense that overwhelming violent reprisals against entire communities are a proven counter-insurgency strategy.
Of course, they're also monstrous war crimes, specifically prohibited by international law and compatible with a permanent armed occupation rather than establishing a local democracy. So there's that.
posted by atrazine at 5:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Looking at rory's list, though, I think Frank Field and Gisela Stuart deserve special mention as the only Labour MPs I'm aware of who voted for Iraq AND campaigned for Brexit.
posted by Mocata at 5:30 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 5:30 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Looking at rory's list, though, I think Frank Field and Gisela Stuart deserve special mention as the only Labour MPs I'm aware of who voted for Iraq AND campaigned for Brexit.
Roger Godsiff too (my MP who's a pretty horrible guy in general and in one of the safest Labour seats)
posted by brilliantmistake at 5:38 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Roger Godsiff too (my MP who's a pretty horrible guy in general and in one of the safest Labour seats)
posted by brilliantmistake at 5:38 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
"I believe that it was better to remove Saddam Hussein ............why I do not believe this is the cause of the terrorism we see today whether in the Middle East or elsewhere in the world."
hahaha haha ha
no of course it wasn't the iraq war that destabilized the region and gave birth to ISIL or nucleated the syrian war
oh no
it must have been something else......
what could it be?
errrr.
answers on a postcard to: Lying Genocide-enabling Twat, 1, The Houses of Parliament, Never-Gonna-Get-Me-On-Thames, London, NOWAYM8 FU2.
posted by lalochezia at 5:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
hahaha haha ha
no of course it wasn't the iraq war that destabilized the region and gave birth to ISIL or nucleated the syrian war
oh no
it must have been something else......
what could it be?
errrr.
answers on a postcard to: Lying Genocide-enabling Twat, 1, The Houses of Parliament, Never-Gonna-Get-Me-On-Thames, London, NOWAYM8 FU2.
posted by lalochezia at 5:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
I recommend taking a few moments to re-watch Robin Cook's amazing resignation speech from 2003, which Corbyn mentioned just now and came up in the Guardian's live blog. You can see Corbyn sitting behind him, I think.
(Robin Cook: 26 occurrences.
David Kelly: 33.
Sexed up or sexed-up: 8.)
posted by Quagkapi at 5:42 AM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
(Robin Cook: 26 occurrences.
David Kelly: 33.
Sexed up or sexed-up: 8.)
posted by Quagkapi at 5:42 AM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
That's probably true in the technical sense that overwhelming violent reprisals against entire communities are a proven counter-insurgency strategy.
"Proven" is a strong claim. There's hardly an unblemished history of success for the tactic (moral issues aside). To name but the most obvious one, it hasn't worked too well in Palestine.
posted by Dysk at 5:49 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Proven" is a strong claim. There's hardly an unblemished history of success for the tactic (moral issues aside). To name but the most obvious one, it hasn't worked too well in Palestine.
posted by Dysk at 5:49 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Proven" is a strong claim. There's hardly an unblemished history of success for the tactic (moral issues aside).
Or see the German occupied territories post-Barbarossa. Overwhelming reprisals were their official strategy from the get-go, but it never proved a fully effective approach.
posted by garius at 6:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or see the German occupied territories post-Barbarossa. Overwhelming reprisals were their official strategy from the get-go, but it never proved a fully effective approach.
posted by garius at 6:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Asking as an ignorant American, what was the motivation for Blair and Labour, as an at least nominally left-of-center party, to vote "Aye" to Mr. Bush's war?
posted by Captain l'escalier at 6:06 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Captain l'escalier at 6:06 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Only 12 Labour MPs voted for the enquiry.
Harry Cohen,Jeremy Corbyn,Mark Fisher,Roger Godsiff,Glenda Jackson,Robert Marshall-Andrews,John McDonnell,
Alan Simpson,Peter Soulsby,Gavin Strang,Robert Wareing,Mike Wood
If we cross reference that list with the Sitting Labour MPs who voted for the war I'd expect to see a solid 0 matches.
But... we actually get 1 match.
Roger Godsiff
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:07 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Harry Cohen,Jeremy Corbyn,Mark Fisher,Roger Godsiff,Glenda Jackson,Robert Marshall-Andrews,John McDonnell,
Alan Simpson,Peter Soulsby,Gavin Strang,Robert Wareing,Mike Wood
If we cross reference that list with the Sitting Labour MPs who voted for the war I'd expect to see a solid 0 matches.
But... we actually get 1 match.
Roger Godsiff
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:07 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
longbaugh, I think your list is missing Andrew Smith.
posted by penguinliz at 6:07 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by penguinliz at 6:07 AM on July 6, 2016
Here's my attempt to sort the list of 136 current MPs who voted for the war in 2003 (which includes a few names missed out in my first attempt above) by party affiliation:
56 Labour
Kevin Barron • Margaret Beckett • Hilary Benn • Clive Betts • Ben Bradshaw • Chris Bryant • Andy Burnham • Alan Campbell • Ann Clwyd • Vernon Coaker • Ann Coffey • Yvette Cooper • Jon Cruddas • Jim Cunningham • Wayne David • Jim Dowd • Angela Eagle • Maria Eagle • Paul Farrelly • Frank Field • Jim Fitzpatrick • Caroline Flint • Barry Gardiner • Roger Godsiff • David Hanson • Harriet Harman • John Healey • Margaret Hodge • George Howarth • Lindsay Hoyle • Huw Irranca-Davies • Alan Johnson • Helen Jones • Kevan Jones • Gerald Kaufman • David Lammy • Ivan Lewis • Fiona Mactaggart • John Mann • Rob Marris • Gordon Marsden • Siobhain McDonagh • Michael Meacher • Stephen Pound • Geoffrey Robinson • Andrew Smith • Angela Smith • John Spellar • Gisela Stuart • Mark Tami • Stephen Timms • Derek Twigg • Keith Vaz • Tom Watson • David Winnick • Rosie Winterton
8 Labour and Co-Operative Party
Adrian Bailey • Barry Sheerman • Gareth Thomas • Geraint Davies • Louise Ellman • Mark Hendrick • Mike Gapes • Stephen Twigg
67 Conservative
David Amess • Henry Bellingham • Paul Beresford • Crispin Blunt • Peter Bottomley • Graham Brady • Julian Brazier • Simon Burns • Alistair Burt • David Cameron • Christopher Chope • Geoffrey Clifton-Brown • David Davis • Jonathan Djanogly • Alan Duncan • Nigel Evans • Michael Fabricant • Michael Fallon • Mark Field • Liam Fox • Mark Francois • Roger Gale • Edward Garnier • Nick Gibb • Cheryl Gillan • James Gray • Chris Grayling • Damian Green • Dominic Grieve • Philip Hammond • John Hayes • Oliver Heald • Gerald Howarth • Iain Duncan Smith • Bernard Jenkin • Boris Johnson • Greg Knight • Eleanor Laing • Oliver Letwin • Julian Lewis • Ian Liddell-Grainger • David Lidington • Peter Lilley • Tim Loughton • Theresa May • Patrick McLoughlin • Andrew Mitchell • George Osborne • Owen Paterson • Eric Pickles • Mark Prisk • John Redwood • Laurence Robertson • Andrew Rosindell • Andrew Selous • Keith Simpson • Nicholas Soames • Caroline Spelman • Gary Streeter • Desmond Swayne • Hugo Swire • Robert Syms • David Tredinnick • Andrew Tyrie • Angela Watkinson • John Whittingdale • Bill Wiggin
3 Democratic Unionist Party
Gregory Campbell • Jeffrey Donaldson • Nigel Dodds
Plus
Sylvia Hermon (Ulster Unionist Party in 2003, now Independent)
John Bercow (Conservative in 2003, now Speaker)
posted by rory at 6:14 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
56 Labour
Kevin Barron • Margaret Beckett • Hilary Benn • Clive Betts • Ben Bradshaw • Chris Bryant • Andy Burnham • Alan Campbell • Ann Clwyd • Vernon Coaker • Ann Coffey • Yvette Cooper • Jon Cruddas • Jim Cunningham • Wayne David • Jim Dowd • Angela Eagle • Maria Eagle • Paul Farrelly • Frank Field • Jim Fitzpatrick • Caroline Flint • Barry Gardiner • Roger Godsiff • David Hanson • Harriet Harman • John Healey • Margaret Hodge • George Howarth • Lindsay Hoyle • Huw Irranca-Davies • Alan Johnson • Helen Jones • Kevan Jones • Gerald Kaufman • David Lammy • Ivan Lewis • Fiona Mactaggart • John Mann • Rob Marris • Gordon Marsden • Siobhain McDonagh • Michael Meacher • Stephen Pound • Geoffrey Robinson • Andrew Smith • Angela Smith • John Spellar • Gisela Stuart • Mark Tami • Stephen Timms • Derek Twigg • Keith Vaz • Tom Watson • David Winnick • Rosie Winterton
8 Labour and Co-Operative Party
Adrian Bailey • Barry Sheerman • Gareth Thomas • Geraint Davies • Louise Ellman • Mark Hendrick • Mike Gapes • Stephen Twigg
67 Conservative
David Amess • Henry Bellingham • Paul Beresford • Crispin Blunt • Peter Bottomley • Graham Brady • Julian Brazier • Simon Burns • Alistair Burt • David Cameron • Christopher Chope • Geoffrey Clifton-Brown • David Davis • Jonathan Djanogly • Alan Duncan • Nigel Evans • Michael Fabricant • Michael Fallon • Mark Field • Liam Fox • Mark Francois • Roger Gale • Edward Garnier • Nick Gibb • Cheryl Gillan • James Gray • Chris Grayling • Damian Green • Dominic Grieve • Philip Hammond • John Hayes • Oliver Heald • Gerald Howarth • Iain Duncan Smith • Bernard Jenkin • Boris Johnson • Greg Knight • Eleanor Laing • Oliver Letwin • Julian Lewis • Ian Liddell-Grainger • David Lidington • Peter Lilley • Tim Loughton • Theresa May • Patrick McLoughlin • Andrew Mitchell • George Osborne • Owen Paterson • Eric Pickles • Mark Prisk • John Redwood • Laurence Robertson • Andrew Rosindell • Andrew Selous • Keith Simpson • Nicholas Soames • Caroline Spelman • Gary Streeter • Desmond Swayne • Hugo Swire • Robert Syms • David Tredinnick • Andrew Tyrie • Angela Watkinson • John Whittingdale • Bill Wiggin
3 Democratic Unionist Party
Gregory Campbell • Jeffrey Donaldson • Nigel Dodds
Plus
Sylvia Hermon (Ulster Unionist Party in 2003, now Independent)
John Bercow (Conservative in 2003, now Speaker)
posted by rory at 6:14 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Among the names that leap out, a reminder there that Boris Johnson was an MP before he was Mayor of London before he was an MP.
posted by rory at 6:16 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rory at 6:16 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Blair sounds very shaken in his response press conference. I think he's realised he's fucked.
posted by MattWPBS at 6:23 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MattWPBS at 6:23 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Asking as an ignorant American, what was the motivation for Blair and Labour, as an at least nominally left-of-center party, to vote "Aye" to Mr. Bush's war?
Lots of reasons. After Suez, the entire British establishment drew the lesson that it must never get on the wrong side of the Americans again, and Blair was shaped as a politician by the experience of the 1980s, when the Thatcher-Reagan alliance and Labour's support for unilateral disarmament meant that Labour was perceived as being both weak on defence and not friendly enough with Washington - perceptions that Blair very much wanted to shake off.
There was the whole doctrine of humanitarian intervention after the end of the Cold War. It seemed to work out okay in the former Yugoslavia - especially compared the Tories' appeasement of Milosevic. So Blair had got lucky once and thought that his luck would hold.
There was the whole movement of grandstanding moralising liberal hawks who couldn't resist the temptation to play at being George Orwell bashing peaceniks during the Second World War.
There was also a feeling that British civility and diplomatic expertise might persuade Bush to play more nicely and not bring down the whole architecture of postwar international institutions in his haste to go to war.
And the war wasn't wildly unpopular with the public to start with. I think a slim majority favoured it, and it was part of Blair's schtick to present himself as a kind of mediating figure who reached out directly to the centre of the electorate while restraining both the Tories and his more left-wing MPs.
posted by Mocata at 6:36 AM on July 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
Lots of reasons. After Suez, the entire British establishment drew the lesson that it must never get on the wrong side of the Americans again, and Blair was shaped as a politician by the experience of the 1980s, when the Thatcher-Reagan alliance and Labour's support for unilateral disarmament meant that Labour was perceived as being both weak on defence and not friendly enough with Washington - perceptions that Blair very much wanted to shake off.
There was the whole doctrine of humanitarian intervention after the end of the Cold War. It seemed to work out okay in the former Yugoslavia - especially compared the Tories' appeasement of Milosevic. So Blair had got lucky once and thought that his luck would hold.
There was the whole movement of grandstanding moralising liberal hawks who couldn't resist the temptation to play at being George Orwell bashing peaceniks during the Second World War.
There was also a feeling that British civility and diplomatic expertise might persuade Bush to play more nicely and not bring down the whole architecture of postwar international institutions in his haste to go to war.
And the war wasn't wildly unpopular with the public to start with. I think a slim majority favoured it, and it was part of Blair's schtick to present himself as a kind of mediating figure who reached out directly to the centre of the electorate while restraining both the Tories and his more left-wing MPs.
posted by Mocata at 6:36 AM on July 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
Captain l'escalier- My understanding is basically this. Both the Conservative and Labour parties have traditionally had warm relations with the US regardless of whichever party was in charge of the White House. This special relationship between the UK and the US has been present since pretty much the beginning but has become pretty much the standard operating condition since Churchill and FDR during WWII when the US has replaced the UK as the Western Hegemonic Superpower.
The UK of course was a strong supporter of the US during the Cold War even when some of the other European powers were trying to chart an independent course. This of course is probably best typified by the relationship between Thatcher and Reagan during the 80s.
I think that in some circles the UK was seen as a moderating influence on the US and in terms of foreign diplomacy the UK was often the back channel for negotiations between the US and other nation states.
In the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 90s there was kind of a realignment of sorts. The US was now the sole world Super Power and the US policymakers were much more willing to engage in interventionism to advance US aims (and Democratic ideals I guess) and my general feeling is that PMs like John Major saw a major loss of stature in regards to the influence of the UK on US foreign policy. With the election of Blair in 1997 there was I think an attempt to align the UK with Clinton who definitely pursued an interventionist inclination with the idea of using the military and economic might of the US to spread democracy (or whatever was the selling point).
So when Dubya came into office Blair apparently tried to do the partnership routine that he enjoyed with Clinton but it was completely clear that Blair was the junior partner in the deal and the US was pretty much going to do whatever it wanted because Rumsfield and Cheney and Rice and company were totally in favor of using US might to expand the US hegemony.
So along came Bin Laden and his terrorist plot and suddenly Bush pretty much had a total green light and Afghanistan happened. By the time the run up to the Iraq war was going on there was some clearer heads starting to say "uhh maybe we should think this through" but the Bush administration was filled with hubris and the Democrats were basically spineless before Bush as conquering hero.
Blair apparently wanted to get a broader coalition in place but it was clear that Bush didn't give a shit either way he was going to war and Blair had to make the decision of continuing to be the lapdog or risk losing what limited access and control over Bush that he enjoyed. And he basically went with the coward's choice.
posted by vuron at 6:36 AM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
The UK of course was a strong supporter of the US during the Cold War even when some of the other European powers were trying to chart an independent course. This of course is probably best typified by the relationship between Thatcher and Reagan during the 80s.
I think that in some circles the UK was seen as a moderating influence on the US and in terms of foreign diplomacy the UK was often the back channel for negotiations between the US and other nation states.
In the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 90s there was kind of a realignment of sorts. The US was now the sole world Super Power and the US policymakers were much more willing to engage in interventionism to advance US aims (and Democratic ideals I guess) and my general feeling is that PMs like John Major saw a major loss of stature in regards to the influence of the UK on US foreign policy. With the election of Blair in 1997 there was I think an attempt to align the UK with Clinton who definitely pursued an interventionist inclination with the idea of using the military and economic might of the US to spread democracy (or whatever was the selling point).
So when Dubya came into office Blair apparently tried to do the partnership routine that he enjoyed with Clinton but it was completely clear that Blair was the junior partner in the deal and the US was pretty much going to do whatever it wanted because Rumsfield and Cheney and Rice and company were totally in favor of using US might to expand the US hegemony.
So along came Bin Laden and his terrorist plot and suddenly Bush pretty much had a total green light and Afghanistan happened. By the time the run up to the Iraq war was going on there was some clearer heads starting to say "uhh maybe we should think this through" but the Bush administration was filled with hubris and the Democrats were basically spineless before Bush as conquering hero.
Blair apparently wanted to get a broader coalition in place but it was clear that Bush didn't give a shit either way he was going to war and Blair had to make the decision of continuing to be the lapdog or risk losing what limited access and control over Bush that he enjoyed. And he basically went with the coward's choice.
posted by vuron at 6:36 AM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
Chilcot's twitter is hilarious and amazing.
WELL PLAYED, SIR
posted by Theta States at 6:37 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
WELL PLAYED, SIR
posted by Theta States at 6:37 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a shorter list but also interesting. Only 36 MPs who voted for the rebel motion against the government's Iraq bill are still in Parliament today:
22 Labour
Diane Abbott • Graham Allen • Kevin Brennan • Karen Buck • Richard Burden • Ronnie Campbell • Jeremy Corbyn • David Crausby • John Cryer • Clive Efford • Paul Flynn • Roger Godsiff • Fabian Hamilton • Stephen Hepburn • Kate Hoey • Kelvin Hopkins • Ian Lucas • John McDonnell • Albert Owen • Graham Stringer • Jon Trickett • Alan Whitehead
7 Conservative
Richard Bacon • John Baron • Kenneth Clarke • Edward Leigh • Andrew Murrison • Andrew Turner • Mike Wood
4 Liberal Democrats
Tom Brake • Alistair Carmichael • Norman Lamb • John Pugh
2 SNP
Angus Robertson • Alex Salmond
1 Plaid Cymru
Hywel Williams
posted by rory at 6:39 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
22 Labour
Diane Abbott • Graham Allen • Kevin Brennan • Karen Buck • Richard Burden • Ronnie Campbell • Jeremy Corbyn • David Crausby • John Cryer • Clive Efford • Paul Flynn • Roger Godsiff • Fabian Hamilton • Stephen Hepburn • Kate Hoey • Kelvin Hopkins • Ian Lucas • John McDonnell • Albert Owen • Graham Stringer • Jon Trickett • Alan Whitehead
7 Conservative
Richard Bacon • John Baron • Kenneth Clarke • Edward Leigh • Andrew Murrison • Andrew Turner • Mike Wood
4 Liberal Democrats
Tom Brake • Alistair Carmichael • Norman Lamb • John Pugh
2 SNP
Angus Robertson • Alex Salmond
1 Plaid Cymru
Hywel Williams
posted by rory at 6:39 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kenneth Clarke! The sanest man in the Tory party.
posted by Mocata at 6:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 6:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Blair: "I accept full responsibility without excuse. Now, I would to fill the rest of this press conference with my excuses."
posted by MattWPBS at 6:45 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 6:45 AM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Peter Frankopan's The Silk Roads is an easily digestable read on the historic patterns behind these current day messes, including why follow Bush
posted by infini at 6:49 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 6:49 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Asking as an ignorant American, what was the motivation for Blair and Labour, as an at least nominally left-of-center party, to vote "Aye" to Mr. Bush's war?And don't forget that the anti-imperialist/anti-war wing of the British Left has always been in something of a minority position, at least in Parliament—a state of affairs that goes right back to the origins of the modern political labour movement. It's historically very unusual for MPs from that faction to hold positions of ascendancy in the party leadership, as they currently do.
posted by Sonny Jim at 6:50 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Blair currently saying "...it was too late not to go to war since we'd already staged the troops".
Unfuckingbelievable.
posted by longbaugh at 6:54 AM on July 6, 2016 [24 favorites]
Unfuckingbelievable.
posted by longbaugh at 6:54 AM on July 6, 2016 [24 favorites]
He is now claiming that every other regime change is directly due to his fantastic leadership and that the removal of Saddam is not directly responsible for the creation of ISIS. He follows by saying that regime collapse in Syria is the cause for ISIS. Well which is it our Tone? Did your fantastic leadership result in this domino instability in regimes which have resulted in ISIS or was it the instability of post-invasion Iraq that caused it? In either case you're kinda responsible, no?
posted by longbaugh at 6:59 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 6:59 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
Blair: "For all of this I express more sorrow, regret and apology than you may ever know or can believe."
There's a fascinating psychological study to be done of the man, by someone who has the stomach for it. Does he honestly believe what he says, or does he know he's doing a sell job? Does he think that sell job actually works, or does he know it doesn't and simply doesn't care? Does he think we're all stupid enough to believe his lies, or is he stupid to believe that we would? Is there a conscience which pricks at him, or are his actions all in line with a perverted conscience? Why the need to do a sell job at all, rather than simply say this was a price he was willing to pay to keep in tight with Bush? Does he know what truth is, or is he simply lost in his own lies?
We don't need Dr. Freud, however, to hone in on that word 'believe', and see that Blair is asking us to believe him once more.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:02 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's a fascinating psychological study to be done of the man, by someone who has the stomach for it. Does he honestly believe what he says, or does he know he's doing a sell job? Does he think that sell job actually works, or does he know it doesn't and simply doesn't care? Does he think we're all stupid enough to believe his lies, or is he stupid to believe that we would? Is there a conscience which pricks at him, or are his actions all in line with a perverted conscience? Why the need to do a sell job at all, rather than simply say this was a price he was willing to pay to keep in tight with Bush? Does he know what truth is, or is he simply lost in his own lies?
We don't need Dr. Freud, however, to hone in on that word 'believe', and see that Blair is asking us to believe him once more.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:02 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Blair currently saying "...it was too late not to go to war since we'd already staged the troops". Unfuckingbelievable.
"We've already got this pyre built we might as well use it": dng's new tagline is coming in handy already.
posted by rory at 7:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
"We've already got this pyre built we might as well use it": dng's new tagline is coming in handy already.
posted by rory at 7:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [18 favorites]
And to keep a historical perspective on this, it really was the US and the UK's war.
Using one metric, military deaths:
US 4,424
UK 179
All of the other coalition countries combined: 139
(wikipedia figures)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:11 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Using one metric, military deaths:
US 4,424
UK 179
All of the other coalition countries combined: 139
(wikipedia figures)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:11 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
I assume we've ruled out accountability. Have we seen this movie?
(neeners don't count)
...once the funds have been shifted, and the bullets have been fired--spinning up the appropriate industrial support is never put before the "cause," because it would be unseemly. Collateral damage is necessary for the diversion. We don't count their dead, of course, in any meaningful way anyhow, except to show how little they value human life.
On our (the American) side of the pond we got to water the tree of patriotism with the blood of patriots. Well, also that collateral damage: good for moral. Hoo-ah. It's a great gig that keeps on giving. Thank you for your service.
Carry on.
posted by mule98J at 7:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
(neeners don't count)
...once the funds have been shifted, and the bullets have been fired--spinning up the appropriate industrial support is never put before the "cause," because it would be unseemly. Collateral damage is necessary for the diversion. We don't count their dead, of course, in any meaningful way anyhow, except to show how little they value human life.
On our (the American) side of the pond we got to water the tree of patriotism with the blood of patriots. Well, also that collateral damage: good for moral. Hoo-ah. It's a great gig that keeps on giving. Thank you for your service.
Carry on.
posted by mule98J at 7:15 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Asking as an ignorant American, what was the motivation for Blair and Labour, as an at least nominally left-of-center party, to vote "Aye" to Mr. Bush's war?
Narcissism.
posted by rongorongo at 7:18 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Narcissism.
posted by rongorongo at 7:18 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
The sheer mass of the report is more evidence that Great Britain can still punch above its weight!
posted by srboisvert at 7:24 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 7:24 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just imagine how much longer the report could've been without the dead hand of EU interference!
posted by Sonny Jim at 7:26 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 7:26 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
Of note in the MP lists above,
Mike Wood (Labour) who voted for the Rebel Bill was MP for Batley and Spen until 2015 when he stepped down. (Jo Cox was elected in his seat)
Mike Wood (Conservative) who is in Parliament now was elected in 2015 as MP for Dudley South.
So it's actually 23 Labour and 6 Conservative.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:45 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mike Wood (Labour) who voted for the Rebel Bill was MP for Batley and Spen until 2015 when he stepped down. (Jo Cox was elected in his seat)
Mike Wood (Conservative) who is in Parliament now was elected in 2015 as MP for Dudley South.
So it's actually 23 Labour and 6 Conservative.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:45 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Nice to see the world catching up to what was known and declared as lies by the likes of hundreds of thousands around the world.
posted by rmmcclay at 7:46 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by rmmcclay at 7:46 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Guardian: Chilcot delivers crushing on Blair and Iraq war
Guardian: 'Tony Blair's epitaph was engraved today'. Our writers' verdicts on the Chilcot report
Guardian: Chilcot report: key points from the Iraq inquiry
Never has the phrase "a damning indictment" been more apt than today.
posted by marienbad at 7:56 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Guardian: 'Tony Blair's epitaph was engraved today'. Our writers' verdicts on the Chilcot report
Guardian: Chilcot report: key points from the Iraq inquiry
Never has the phrase "a damning indictment" been more apt than today.
posted by marienbad at 7:56 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering how this person feels right now.
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:01 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Mike Wood (Labour) who voted for the Rebel Bill was MP for Batley and Spen until 2015 when he stepped down. (Jo Cox was elected in his seat)
Mike Wood (Conservative) who is in Parliament now was elected in 2015 as MP for Dudley South.
So it's actually 23 Labour and 6 Conservative.
Whoops, many thanks. I was worried I might have missed something like that - hard cross-checking hundreds of names.
posted by rory at 8:01 AM on July 6, 2016
Mike Wood (Conservative) who is in Parliament now was elected in 2015 as MP for Dudley South.
So it's actually 23 Labour and 6 Conservative.
Whoops, many thanks. I was worried I might have missed something like that - hard cross-checking hundreds of names.
posted by rory at 8:01 AM on July 6, 2016
The 2.6 million word Chilcot Report seems thorough, but it pales in comparison to this 4.0 million word Super Smash Bros. Brawl fanfic
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:09 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:09 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Comment and a couple of replies removed. If you've been asked to chill in another discussion, do not wander over here and try to start up a second franchise.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Karl Dönitz and Charles Taylor are the only two national leaders to have been convicted of war crimes.
Considering one was the leader of the Nazi state and the other was an African mass-murdering warlord, it is extremely unlikely a former British Prime Minister will be put on trial, let alone convicted, no matter how damning the evidence.
posted by dazed_one at 8:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Considering one was the leader of the Nazi state and the other was an African mass-murdering warlord, it is extremely unlikely a former British Prime Minister will be put on trial, let alone convicted, no matter how damning the evidence.
posted by dazed_one at 8:32 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Milosevic would've likely been convicted but yeah basically the reality is that unless you are actively responsible for committing genocide (and maybe not even then depending on who your friends are) the reality is that Blair was never ever going to be charged with War Crimes.
This is basically about dumping responsibility for the whole fiasco on one person so that the UK establishment can avoid collective responsibility because let's be honest this was a Parliament sanctioned prime time event.
posted by vuron at 8:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
This is basically about dumping responsibility for the whole fiasco on one person so that the UK establishment can avoid collective responsibility because let's be honest this was a Parliament sanctioned prime time event.
posted by vuron at 8:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
Karl Dönitz and Charles Taylor are the only two national leaders to have been convicted of war crimes.
Not that it's necessarily relevant to the original post, but what about Hideki Tojo and Ion Antonescu?
posted by plep at 8:49 AM on July 6, 2016
Not that it's necessarily relevant to the original post, but what about Hideki Tojo and Ion Antonescu?
posted by plep at 8:49 AM on July 6, 2016
Pinochet escaped trial and very likely jail only through his own mortality. Connections were made to 300 indictments at the time of his death.
posted by bonehead at 8:57 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by bonehead at 8:57 AM on July 6, 2016
If Blair does go to trial, which I doubt, I'm sure Cherie Blair can help him find good legal representation. She's been helping out dictators for a while.
I'm just happy my beloved cat Lynton, named after Blair in May of 1997, has since passed. I don't think he could handle the shame.
posted by kendrak at 8:58 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm just happy my beloved cat Lynton, named after Blair in May of 1997, has since passed. I don't think he could handle the shame.
posted by kendrak at 8:58 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
Blair: "For all of this I express more sorrow, regret and apology than you may ever know or can believe."
I think his position with the British public is such that he isn't technically saying that's it's a great amount.
posted by jaduncan at 9:04 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think his position with the British public is such that he isn't technically saying that's it's a great amount.
posted by jaduncan at 9:04 AM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
During the 90's, there was a dream that things could be different - Blair and (the) Clinton(s) and the politicians across the globe who rode their wave were always very far from perfect, but they promised something apart from cold war conservatism.
The Iraq war was such a betrayal.
I never trusted them that much, but for many people I know, that was the root of their distrust of all politicians.
posted by mumimor at 9:04 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Iraq war was such a betrayal.
I never trusted them that much, but for many people I know, that was the root of their distrust of all politicians.
posted by mumimor at 9:04 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
From the epitaphs link above, the summary of Giles Fraser's piece is good, implicating Blair's professed devotion:
"It was all done “in good faith”, said Blair in response. I’m not really sure he should be making a faith reference today. The Chilcot report is three times the length of the Bible. And who knows yet whether the former provides the grounds to indict Blair with war crimes. But the Bible surely does. Here’s the executive summary: there is no immunity from prosecution, even when you’re dead."
posted by Rumple at 9:05 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
"It was all done “in good faith”, said Blair in response. I’m not really sure he should be making a faith reference today. The Chilcot report is three times the length of the Bible. And who knows yet whether the former provides the grounds to indict Blair with war crimes. But the Bible surely does. Here’s the executive summary: there is no immunity from prosecution, even when you’re dead."
posted by Rumple at 9:05 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Alastair Campbell - possibly an even more compelling study in deluded evil than Blair himself - is keeping it classy at The Guardian:
So when the latest murderous Isis attack in Baghdad happens, a few days ago, with Chilcot looming, the BBC’s Middle East correspondent, Jeremy Bowen, cannot resist adding two and two together and making whatever the number of deaths happens to be.
Got to love that snarky 'whatever the number of deaths' line in an article published today.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:09 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
So when the latest murderous Isis attack in Baghdad happens, a few days ago, with Chilcot looming, the BBC’s Middle East correspondent, Jeremy Bowen, cannot resist adding two and two together and making whatever the number of deaths happens to be.
Got to love that snarky 'whatever the number of deaths' line in an article published today.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:09 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
"...it was too late not to go to war since we'd already staged the troops"
I've been reading a bunch of books about WWI lately. This is the exact rationale that lead to the invasion of Belgium when the Germans were invading France. (According the Tuchman, there were serious doubts about the military plan and last minute attempts by the Kaiser to simply invade France through France.) It's arguable that the UK and its colonies would not have gotten involved if Germany had not invaded Belgium. And without Britain's dominance of the sea, the US would never have gotten involved. So that cost about 800,000 lives. So I guess Tony can be glad that this time around he only helped cause the death of 700,000 people instead of 800,000. So congrats Tony, you're only 88% (or 44% if you want to share blame with Cheney, your call) as much of a horrible human being as the architects of the most useless war in history.
Of course, this ignores the creation of Daesh, which is Bush's (and Blaire's) most long landing establishment in the quagmire formerly known as Iraq.
posted by Hactar at 9:12 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
I've been reading a bunch of books about WWI lately. This is the exact rationale that lead to the invasion of Belgium when the Germans were invading France. (According the Tuchman, there were serious doubts about the military plan and last minute attempts by the Kaiser to simply invade France through France.) It's arguable that the UK and its colonies would not have gotten involved if Germany had not invaded Belgium. And without Britain's dominance of the sea, the US would never have gotten involved. So that cost about 800,000 lives. So I guess Tony can be glad that this time around he only helped cause the death of 700,000 people instead of 800,000. So congrats Tony, you're only 88% (or 44% if you want to share blame with Cheney, your call) as much of a horrible human being as the architects of the most useless war in history.
Of course, this ignores the creation of Daesh, which is Bush's (and Blaire's) most long landing establishment in the quagmire formerly known as Iraq.
posted by Hactar at 9:12 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
"It was all done “in good faith”, said Blair in response. I’m not really sure he should be making a faith reference today. The Chilcot report is three times the length of the Bible. And who knows yet whether the former provides the grounds to indict Blair with war crimes. But the Bible surely does. Here’s the executive summary: there is no immunity from prosecution, even when you’re dead."
Which faith though? The one he hid from the public until after he was out of office, the official state religion, or BAE?
posted by srboisvert at 9:20 AM on July 6, 2016
Which faith though? The one he hid from the public until after he was out of office, the official state religion, or BAE?
posted by srboisvert at 9:20 AM on July 6, 2016
Remembering what the Sun said about Charles Kennedy's stance on the Iraq War
posted by vacapinta at 11:13 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 11:13 AM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
Karl Dönitz and Charles Taylor are the only two national leaders to have been convicted of war crimes.
That's ignoring plenty of other prime ministers and presidents, including a certain Saddam Hussein, who wasn't exactly a nice guy (even if the next US president seems to like him), and who was convicted of crimes against humanity.
posted by effbot at 11:51 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's ignoring plenty of other prime ministers and presidents, including a certain Saddam Hussein, who wasn't exactly a nice guy (even if the next US president seems to like him), and who was convicted of crimes against humanity.
posted by effbot at 11:51 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Britain loves monuments, so what would be a fitting memorial to Tony's decision to start a war?
You can argue about the exact numbers of dead civilians resulting from that decision, but with 250,000 skulls, you could built a pyramid ten metres high.
How about a ten-metre pyramid of skulls?
We could put a child's little skull on top, to make it extra-pointy.
posted by happyinmotion at 12:04 PM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
You can argue about the exact numbers of dead civilians resulting from that decision, but with 250,000 skulls, you could built a pyramid ten metres high.
How about a ten-metre pyramid of skulls?
We could put a child's little skull on top, to make it extra-pointy.
posted by happyinmotion at 12:04 PM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
ISIS is the memorial to the decision to invade Iraq.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:10 PM on July 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think what pisses me off about every single defender of Blair (and obviously Blair himself) is the relentless "hindsight is 20-20" line. Yes, nobody is denying that hindsight is definitely going to show that the invasion was a farce from the get go. The issue I have is that 1.5 million people marched in London alone, never mind those who couldn't reach London, get a day off work or escape from their other responsibilities. That's not hindsight, that's foresight. These people, including myself and literally everyone I knew at the time, for various reasons saw no reason to rush into war (if at all).
We may not have had access to the super-sekrit reports available to Blair and his fan club but anyone with the slightest interest in the news was aware that all that was needed was more time. The pressure from the Bush administration was palpable and it was abundantly clear that behind the scenes much was being done to speed things up with the UNSC and with the other members of the "coalition" (including Poland, obviously).
I've actually been re-reading MeFi from 2002-2003 over the past day to see what the situation was (I was a lurker at the time) and it was clear to all but the most insane right wing ideologue that it was a mistake going in and it's depressing how many of the predictions that were made have come to pass. I can only say that the fact that MetaFilter clearly makes better decisions than several major national governments is simultaneously wonderful and depressing.
posted by longbaugh at 12:12 PM on July 6, 2016 [34 favorites]
We may not have had access to the super-sekrit reports available to Blair and his fan club but anyone with the slightest interest in the news was aware that all that was needed was more time. The pressure from the Bush administration was palpable and it was abundantly clear that behind the scenes much was being done to speed things up with the UNSC and with the other members of the "coalition" (including Poland, obviously).
I've actually been re-reading MeFi from 2002-2003 over the past day to see what the situation was (I was a lurker at the time) and it was clear to all but the most insane right wing ideologue that it was a mistake going in and it's depressing how many of the predictions that were made have come to pass. I can only say that the fact that MetaFilter clearly makes better decisions than several major national governments is simultaneously wonderful and depressing.
posted by longbaugh at 12:12 PM on July 6, 2016 [34 favorites]
From the "9 Chilcot findings rejected by Tony Blair" linked above:
posted by mhum at 12:33 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
9/11 was an event like no other in US history. I considered it an attack on all the free world. I believed that Britain – as America’s strongest ally – should be with them in tackling this new and unprecedented security challenge.Really? 9/11? Is this seriously what he's saying today, now in the year two thousand and sixteen?
posted by mhum at 12:33 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is why u get queasy whenever anyone starts talking about the spirit of togetherness of Sept 12th, because by Sept 13th it was a spirit of being free to do any old awful shit and not have the consequences land on you.
posted by Artw at 12:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
should be with them in tackling this new and unprecedented security challenge.
Jesus H. Balls, to unpack this rationale would take at least a day. Think of the place in society where this decision was on par with an attempt to make a suit without a sewing machine, yet still I don't think the latter can be communicated with such blandness.
posted by rhizome at 12:47 PM on July 6, 2016
Jesus H. Balls, to unpack this rationale would take at least a day. Think of the place in society where this decision was on par with an attempt to make a suit without a sewing machine, yet still I don't think the latter can be communicated with such blandness.
posted by rhizome at 12:47 PM on July 6, 2016
I think what pisses me off about every single defender of Blair (and obviously Blair himself) is the relentless "hindsight is 20-20" line. Yes, nobody is denying that hindsight is definitely going to show that the invasion was a farce from the get go. The issue I have is that 1.5 million people marched in London alone, never mind those who couldn't reach London, get a day off work or escape from their other responsibilities. That's not hindsight, that's foresight. These people, including myself and literally everyone I knew at the time, for various reasons saw no reason to rush into war (if at all).
In fairness, Chilcot has now explicitly found special powers of foresight were not needed.
posted by jaduncan at 12:53 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
In fairness, Chilcot has now explicitly found special powers of foresight were not needed.
posted by jaduncan at 12:53 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
I've actually been re-reading MeFi from 2002-2003 over the past day to see what the situation was (I was a lurker at the time) and it was clear to all but the most insane right wing ideologue that it was a mistake going in and it's depressing how many of the predictions that were made have come to pass.
Yes. The year 2003 was a very dark time indeed (especially, it goes without saying, if you happened to be an Iraqi). Every prediction that was made — notably about how the occupation would fail — came true.
posted by My Dad at 1:23 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes. The year 2003 was a very dark time indeed (especially, it goes without saying, if you happened to be an Iraqi). Every prediction that was made — notably about how the occupation would fail — came true.
posted by My Dad at 1:23 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Anyway, all that doesn’t matter now. Saddam is gone, thanks to you. Was it worth it? Be assured it was. We all know that it got to a point where we would have never been rid of Saddam without foreign intervention; I just wish it would have been a bit better planned." - Salam Pax
posted by gertzedek at 1:49 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by gertzedek at 1:49 PM on July 6, 2016
From the "9 Chilcot findings rejected by Tony Blair" linked above:
"The reality is that we – Britain – had continually tried to act with the authority of the UN."
Uh, okay. And they said, no and you did it anyway. C'mon Tony!
Blair: Can I have a cookie?
Mother Blair: No Tony
Blair: Can I have a cookie?
Mother Blair: No Tony
...
Blair: Om nom nom nom
Mother Blair: I didn't say you could have a cookie
Blair: The reality is that I – Tony – had continually tried to eat a cookie with the authority of mother."
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:25 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
"The reality is that we – Britain – had continually tried to act with the authority of the UN."
Uh, okay. And they said, no and you did it anyway. C'mon Tony!
Blair: Can I have a cookie?
Mother Blair: No Tony
Blair: Can I have a cookie?
Mother Blair: No Tony
...
Blair: Om nom nom nom
Mother Blair: I didn't say you could have a cookie
Blair: The reality is that I – Tony – had continually tried to eat a cookie with the authority of mother."
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:25 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think what pisses me off about every single defender of Blair (and obviously Blair himself) is the relentless "hindsight is 20-20" line.
This is beloved by anyone who wants to deflect scrutiny of their failures.
posted by thelonius at 2:40 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is beloved by anyone who wants to deflect scrutiny of their failures.
posted by thelonius at 2:40 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Onion, 26 March 2003
>>>This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No It Won’t
This is basically the same argument people are having about the Brexit.
posted by My Dad at 2:51 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
>>>This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No It Won’t
This is basically the same argument people are having about the Brexit.
posted by My Dad at 2:51 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is basically the same argument people are having about the Brexit.
"...we make our own reality..." - Karl Rove
"...Britain has had enough of experts..." - Michael Gove
I think the take away from this is that we now live in a post-factual world.
That and that we shouldn't trust people whose names end with "-ove".
posted by longbaugh at 3:00 PM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
"...we make our own reality..." - Karl Rove
"...Britain has had enough of experts..." - Michael Gove
I think the take away from this is that we now live in a post-factual world.
That and that we shouldn't trust people whose names end with "-ove".
posted by longbaugh at 3:00 PM on July 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
The British people voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for the Iraq war. No idea where this derail is going.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:13 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:13 PM on July 6, 2016
It's a comment on how facts apparently no longer have a part in political discourse? If you'd rather we avoid the Brexit aspect there are many other examples in recent history of politicians selling a particular narrative that skirts the boundaries of accuracy (to put it kindly). Please don't take offence.
posted by longbaugh at 3:20 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 3:20 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
The British people voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for the Iraq war. No idea where this derail is going.
I'm sorry you think it's a derail.
However, it's been pretty clearly demonstrated that the leave campaign was based on lies (L350M going to EU would be diverted to NHS, etc), and then Gove and others saying, after everything had been ruined, was that all that was needed was a "good attitude" and "hard work" (similar to Rove et al's claims that the US could make its own reality etc).
There was also Gove and his denigration of "experts" and Rumsfeld sneeringly dismissing the "reality-based community."
Same destructive impulse, same sociopathic disregard for the catastrophic events that occurred afterwards.
posted by My Dad at 3:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm sorry you think it's a derail.
However, it's been pretty clearly demonstrated that the leave campaign was based on lies (L350M going to EU would be diverted to NHS, etc), and then Gove and others saying, after everything had been ruined, was that all that was needed was a "good attitude" and "hard work" (similar to Rove et al's claims that the US could make its own reality etc).
There was also Gove and his denigration of "experts" and Rumsfeld sneeringly dismissing the "reality-based community."
Same destructive impulse, same sociopathic disregard for the catastrophic events that occurred afterwards.
posted by My Dad at 3:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
after everything had been ruined
When did that happen?
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:28 PM on July 6, 2016
When did that happen?
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:28 PM on July 6, 2016
I can see that this is going to become a derail so maybe we should drop it?
posted by longbaugh at 3:29 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 3:29 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
The issue I have is that 1.5 million people marched in London alone, never mind those who couldn't reach London, get a day off work or escape from their other responsibilities. That's not hindsight, that's foresight.
I too was marching in London that day, arm-in-arm with friends now scattered on at least three continents, some of whom have been in touch via social media today to recall that moment in light of the report. It is the most joyless vindication we could have imagined.
I'll remember 15 February 2003 as long as I live, and part of what I'm remembering is what it meant that the 'largest protest event in human history' failed to stop this war. It's probably the most formative political moment of my youth. I suppose there's a certain grim consolation in knowing that future historians will have undeniable evidence that tens of millions of people tried to prevent this catastrophe, that we didn't need hindsight or a commission of inquiry to see through the lies of our leaders. But mostly I'm just angry, and terribly sad.
posted by karayel at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
I too was marching in London that day, arm-in-arm with friends now scattered on at least three continents, some of whom have been in touch via social media today to recall that moment in light of the report. It is the most joyless vindication we could have imagined.
I'll remember 15 February 2003 as long as I live, and part of what I'm remembering is what it meant that the 'largest protest event in human history' failed to stop this war. It's probably the most formative political moment of my youth. I suppose there's a certain grim consolation in knowing that future historians will have undeniable evidence that tens of millions of people tried to prevent this catastrophe, that we didn't need hindsight or a commission of inquiry to see through the lies of our leaders. But mostly I'm just angry, and terribly sad.
posted by karayel at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
"I've actually been re-reading MeFi from 2002-2003 over the past day to see what the situation was (I was a lurker at the time) and it was clear to all but the most insane right wing ideologue that it was a mistake going in and it's depressing how many of the predictions that were made have come to pass. I can only say that the fact that MetaFilter clearly makes better decisions than several major national governments is simultaneously wonderful and depressing."
I was in a Model UN class at the time, and it was a constant colloquy on how it was both illegal and stupid. It's like when people defend Jefferson's slave owning with a "who could know, times were different" when actually there were tons of people communicating directly with him about how fucked up it was.
posted by klangklangston at 3:51 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was in a Model UN class at the time, and it was a constant colloquy on how it was both illegal and stupid. It's like when people defend Jefferson's slave owning with a "who could know, times were different" when actually there were tons of people communicating directly with him about how fucked up it was.
posted by klangklangston at 3:51 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Corbyn's speech on the Chilcot Enquiry
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:26 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:26 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Ah, nothing like seeing the Tory front bench slouched there like schoolchildren trying to look cool while Sir bawls them out.
posted by kalimac at 6:18 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kalimac at 6:18 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Noisy Pink Bubbles: “Corbyn's speech on the Chilcot Enquiry”Same thing, but on YouTube.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:06 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Same destructive impulse, same sociopathic disregard for the catastrophic events that occurred afterwards.
Same failure to have a plan for the aftermath.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 10:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Same failure to have a plan for the aftermath.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 10:48 PM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the theory that MI6's allegations of Saddam's "nerve gas in glass containers" appears to have been derived from the plot of the 1999 movie "The Rock". I'm guessing maybe Bush and Blair envisaged a go to war speech like this.
posted by rongorongo at 11:52 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 11:52 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
So many people playing each other. I bet some of them lamented it took so long in their careers before they could be involved in something like that. "Nostalgic for Rhodesia" people.
posted by rhizome at 12:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
SAFE HOME
A DodgyDossier Fairy Story
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:23 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
A Dodgy
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:23 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wish that The Mirror or The Guardian could've published a front page collage of all their rivals' warmongering front covers of 2003. That would have made the point.
posted by ambrosen at 6:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 6:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oof, that Independant one read more like a threat.
Defiant Blair: I'd invade Iraq again.
I like to imagine the full quote is "I'd invade Iraq again. if you keep this up, you see if I don't!"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Defiant Blair: I'd invade Iraq again.
I like to imagine the full quote is "I'd invade Iraq again. if you keep this up, you see if I don't!"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The fucking irony of The Sun's front page.
A normal human being with empathy might feel shame about throwing stones and breaking their glass house.
posted by Talez at 6:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
A normal human being with empathy might feel shame about throwing stones and breaking their glass house.
posted by Talez at 6:16 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Tory round whatever:
Theresa May - 199
Andrea Leadsom - 84
Michael Gove - 46
So Gove drops out and now it's between May and Leadsom.
That's it for the Tory MP balloting.
Now it's the turn of the nation's Tory members at large to chose between one or t'other.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:41 AM on July 7, 2016
Theresa May - 199
Andrea Leadsom - 84
Michael Gove - 46
So Gove drops out and now it's between May and Leadsom.
That's it for the Tory MP balloting.
Now it's the turn of the nation's Tory members at large to chose between one or t'other.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:41 AM on July 7, 2016
"There will be no Sarah Vine column this week."
posted by My Dad at 11:18 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by My Dad at 11:18 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
LRB, "A Grand and Disastrous Deceit": "Despite the vast gap between the situation as it was and as it was perceived to be by the cabinet, the inquiry concludes that the ‘cabinet was not misled.’ This implausible finding suggests a deliberate restraint on the part of the inquiry, but on the facts of the disastrous decision to go to war its report will surely be the final word. Its authoritative and independent account makes it clear that the decision was not wise or correct or justifiable. This is not a matter of hindsight, since the inquiry finds that the necessary information was available to the decision-makers if they had wanted to see it: on Iraq’s WMD capability, on the consequences of the war, on the strife and mayhem that would follow.’."
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:03 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:03 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
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posted by Catseye at 2:11 AM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]