April 5, 2002
4:44 AM Subscribe
Chris Pirillo abruptly shut down LockerGnome's Usenet discussion groups because of the volume of criticism he was receiving over a new project, GnomeTomes. "Shout your hatred for all things 'me' from the rooftops," he writes. "but don't do it on my damn roof." Would you provide a forum where people are free to slag you?
Here's another item from Pirillo's weblog that provides more background.
I linked to MetaTalk because it's a forum where people have been free to talk about how the site is run. No other comparison was intended -- I don't know much about LockerGnome's community.
posted by rcade at 5:38 AM on April 5, 2002
I linked to MetaTalk because it's a forum where people have been free to talk about how the site is run. No other comparison was intended -- I don't know much about LockerGnome's community.
posted by rcade at 5:38 AM on April 5, 2002
Chris says:
Is this really what "free expression" means to people on the web?
posted by mrmanley at 5:38 AM on April 5, 2002
What I AM opposed to is envious whining and non-constructive dialogues.In other words, if you don't say bad things about him, he'll graciously allow you to post. Now, this is his own discussion group and he is of course free to do as he pleases, but this is just petty and vindictive. If you don't want to hear what people really have to say about you, don't give them a forum.
Is this really what "free expression" means to people on the web?
posted by mrmanley at 5:38 AM on April 5, 2002
I'll pass on GnomeTomes, but 'Would I shut down my own forum if too many users criticize me and my ideas?'
Sure, I would. Maybe first try to be a better admin. Were 100% of the users posting personal attacks and negative crap?
I recall seeing a few inappropriate comments on metafilter's front page that didn't survive, and rightly so.
You gotta weed your garden, and if that doesn't work, then there is always RoundUp®.
posted by fatbaq at 5:41 AM on April 5, 2002
Sure, I would. Maybe first try to be a better admin. Were 100% of the users posting personal attacks and negative crap?
I recall seeing a few inappropriate comments on metafilter's front page that didn't survive, and rightly so.
You gotta weed your garden, and if that doesn't work, then there is always RoundUp®.
posted by fatbaq at 5:41 AM on April 5, 2002
I don't blame the guy for trying to make a few bucks from his pseudo-semi-fame, but GnomeTomes?
I don't understand why this project is such a sore spot with his audience. If they're getting the stuff they have always liked for free (the e-mail newsletters and his sites), why do they care if he offer some of his tech information in an additional, repackaged form for $5?
(Disclosure: After reading about GnomeTomes for the first time this morning, I sent him a query about the possibility of writing one.)
posted by rcade at 5:58 AM on April 5, 2002
I don't understand why this project is such a sore spot with his audience. If they're getting the stuff they have always liked for free (the e-mail newsletters and his sites), why do they care if he offer some of his tech information in an additional, repackaged form for $5?
(Disclosure: After reading about GnomeTomes for the first time this morning, I sent him a query about the possibility of writing one.)
posted by rcade at 5:58 AM on April 5, 2002
I linked to MetaTalk because it's a forum where people have been free to talk about how the site is run.
When someone has a valid gripe about something here and goes to metatalk about it, Matt is usually pretty good about it. But then he has a million times as many defenders than detractors. If the balance were different, it's possible that his reactions might be different.
It's perfectly understandable for a forum operator to get fed up and quit. Providing an online forum is generally a pretty thankless job, I think. So when the balance of criticism outweighs the praise, I don't think it's petty or vindictive to pull the plug.
posted by crunchland at 6:01 AM on April 5, 2002
When someone has a valid gripe about something here and goes to metatalk about it, Matt is usually pretty good about it. But then he has a million times as many defenders than detractors. If the balance were different, it's possible that his reactions might be different.
It's perfectly understandable for a forum operator to get fed up and quit. Providing an online forum is generally a pretty thankless job, I think. So when the balance of criticism outweighs the praise, I don't think it's petty or vindictive to pull the plug.
posted by crunchland at 6:01 AM on April 5, 2002
"Would you provide a forum where people are free to slag you?"
I do. I provide several, actually.
But still, if a post or comment was particularly nonsensical and vile, I might delete it.
If I'm doing something that will voiciferously piss off a dozen users -- well, that's just the tip of the iceberg, isn't it? Better to know sooner rather than later...
posted by insomnia_lj at 6:20 AM on April 5, 2002
I do. I provide several, actually.
But still, if a post or comment was particularly nonsensical and vile, I might delete it.
If I'm doing something that will voiciferously piss off a dozen users -- well, that's just the tip of the iceberg, isn't it? Better to know sooner rather than later...
posted by insomnia_lj at 6:20 AM on April 5, 2002
Here in FightWorld, we only have three rules. One, don't make fun of me. Two, there are no rules! Rawr! Three, no drinks in the lobby.
posted by lotsofno at 6:23 AM on April 5, 2002
posted by lotsofno at 6:23 AM on April 5, 2002
Who is Chris Pirillo? Can anyone provide some background? I've heard his name mentioned a few times recently as if he's someone I should know, but I don't.
posted by rodii at 7:23 AM on April 5, 2002
posted by rodii at 7:23 AM on April 5, 2002
Pirillo is the founder of LockerGnome, a popular tech advice site that publishes free e-mail newsletters for a reported audience of 250,000. That gig has led to other opportunities such as a CPU Magazine column and a job on TechTV, and I think he's also a computer book author.
posted by rcade at 7:26 AM on April 5, 2002
posted by rcade at 7:26 AM on April 5, 2002
He's that Urkel-type, hyperactive geek on TechTV... click here for a bio. Google is your friend.
posted by Fofer at 7:29 AM on April 5, 2002
posted by Fofer at 7:29 AM on April 5, 2002
On a related and smaller scale, many of the personal site maintainers who have had comments enabled now have a disclaimer about tracking IPs or deleting comments at will. (electrolicious, stuff and stuff), and others have gotten rid of them, largely (lyd). Public free-for-alls at any scale are very difficult to manage. (And I'm sure Tag Board will be a disaster for users).
It sounds like Pirillo was over his head -- he had "no time to police," and what else would you do but shut it down if you can't run it properly? I only hope Matt (who isn't a good example, as a free, solely community-oriented service) will do the same when Metafilter is taken over by a Tina Turner screaming "Break a deal and face the wheel" in a virtual Thunderdome Metafilter. Heh. As if.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 7:36 AM on April 5, 2002
It sounds like Pirillo was over his head -- he had "no time to police," and what else would you do but shut it down if you can't run it properly? I only hope Matt (who isn't a good example, as a free, solely community-oriented service) will do the same when Metafilter is taken over by a Tina Turner screaming "Break a deal and face the wheel" in a virtual Thunderdome Metafilter. Heh. As if.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 7:36 AM on April 5, 2002
In other words, if you don't say bad things about him, he'll graciously allow you to post. Now, this is his own discussion group and he is of course free to do as he pleases, but this is just petty and vindictive. If you don't want to hear what people really have to say about you, don't give them a forum.
Can someone get Dave Winer in here?
posted by lia at 8:14 AM on April 5, 2002
Can someone get Dave Winer in here?
posted by lia at 8:14 AM on April 5, 2002
The biggest difference here is that MeFi is a community site by definition, and Chris Pirillo is a personal brand. When people criticize his stuff, they're also criticizing him (and he or they may overinterpret the criticism). The example cited was pretty weak, with the air of an honest question -- and his reply an overreaction. But that's right back to what RJ etc. said about having a forum you can run properly.
posted by dhartung at 8:18 AM on April 5, 2002
posted by dhartung at 8:18 AM on April 5, 2002
Ordinarily he's a relentlessly cheerful guy, but I think dealing with the anklebiters that come with the job are finally getting to him -- he posted this a few months back. Or maybe Chris is having a bit of web psychosis -- he's been online all day, every blessed day, for years.
posted by nikzhowz at 8:53 AM on April 5, 2002
posted by nikzhowz at 8:53 AM on April 5, 2002
This is the main reason why web 'boards will never replace USENET. As bad is it is (and it's pretty damned bad), USENET is a far better place for opinion exchange than the web is (MeFi of course excepted...for the time being).
Guys, "free speech" isn't just speech you like or agree with. When you open a public forum and invite comment, then you are inviting people to speak their minds. Sure, you're going to get some idiots who just want to vent or be crude, but that's life: you deal and get on with things. If Chris was just tired of maintaining the board, fine; he should have said so. But to shut it down because he doesn't like what is being said there is just wrong, IMHO.
I just wish more insult-hurlers, trolls, and flameboys would understand that free speech is a responsibility, not a license to be an asshole.
posted by mrmanley at 9:18 AM on April 5, 2002
Guys, "free speech" isn't just speech you like or agree with. When you open a public forum and invite comment, then you are inviting people to speak their minds. Sure, you're going to get some idiots who just want to vent or be crude, but that's life: you deal and get on with things. If Chris was just tired of maintaining the board, fine; he should have said so. But to shut it down because he doesn't like what is being said there is just wrong, IMHO.
I just wish more insult-hurlers, trolls, and flameboys would understand that free speech is a responsibility, not a license to be an asshole.
posted by mrmanley at 9:18 AM on April 5, 2002
"This is the main reason why web 'boards will never replace USENET. As bad is it is (and it's pretty damned bad), USENET is a far better place for opinion exchange than the web is..."
No offense, but this is a steaming load of horse dung.
The idea of saying "web 'boards will never replace USENET" makes about as much sense as saying that the motorized carriage will never replace the horse. Wake up and smell the electrons, already!
Things change, and there are very good reasons why sites like MetaFilter, or shared community weblogs like you can run using LiveJournal or Blogger are pulling in a ton of readers, while Usenet wallows in its crapulence.
Ultimately, what is it that makes a community worth being a part of? The people. Who is it that keeps things from degrading in a group discussion? The moderator. You can give me the most poorly designed web 'board, but combine it with the right people and the right moderator and it will come alive.
One thing that web boards do have over Usenet is that they are more evolutionary, especially if designed right. There are still some essential features to Usenet, for instance, that weblog-based communities don't have. However, the one thing that Usenet lacks is the ability to implement new features in a rapidfire manner.
This isn't to say that I don't like Usenet. I grew up on Usenet. However, it has utterly failed to evolve, and now is awash in a sea of dung that makes Slashdot troll posts seem like a welcome substitute.
So, yeah, I fully expect that web 'boards will continue to evolve along with the weblog services that increasingly power them, and that they'll be the next big thing... but ultimately, it's the community and the moderator that matter most.
posted by insomnia_lj at 3:13 PM on April 5, 2002
No offense, but this is a steaming load of horse dung.
The idea of saying "web 'boards will never replace USENET" makes about as much sense as saying that the motorized carriage will never replace the horse. Wake up and smell the electrons, already!
Things change, and there are very good reasons why sites like MetaFilter, or shared community weblogs like you can run using LiveJournal or Blogger are pulling in a ton of readers, while Usenet wallows in its crapulence.
Ultimately, what is it that makes a community worth being a part of? The people. Who is it that keeps things from degrading in a group discussion? The moderator. You can give me the most poorly designed web 'board, but combine it with the right people and the right moderator and it will come alive.
One thing that web boards do have over Usenet is that they are more evolutionary, especially if designed right. There are still some essential features to Usenet, for instance, that weblog-based communities don't have. However, the one thing that Usenet lacks is the ability to implement new features in a rapidfire manner.
This isn't to say that I don't like Usenet. I grew up on Usenet. However, it has utterly failed to evolve, and now is awash in a sea of dung that makes Slashdot troll posts seem like a welcome substitute.
So, yeah, I fully expect that web 'boards will continue to evolve along with the weblog services that increasingly power them, and that they'll be the next big thing... but ultimately, it's the community and the moderator that matter most.
posted by insomnia_lj at 3:13 PM on April 5, 2002
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Please.
And the implied comparison to MetaTalk is wildly inappropriate, I'd say, at least until Matt starts charging, SA-style, for new memberships here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:16 AM on April 5, 2002