I want to be in the room where it happens

August 8, 2016 9:37 AM

Evan McMullin, former policy director, ex-CIA agent, and devout #NeverTrump-er is running for president. Why should we care? Because he could help turn Utah blue.
posted by Anonymous (3570 comments total)

He's running for President?! I thought he was running for D/CIA under Hillary.
posted by grobstein at 9:41 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

When reporting @realDonaldTrump ads to Twitter, what do you say is wrong? Serious question.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:42 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I thought he was running for D/CIA under Hillary.

Either that or Grand Potentate of Utah.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:44 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

When reporting @realDonaldTrump ads to Twitter, what do you say is wrong? Serious question.

All I know is that when I saw "TRUMP 2016" scrawled above a urinal, I reported it to a janitor as hate speech. Children shouldn't be exposed to shit like that.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:44 AM on August 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

For those disappointed in the supposed "lack of choices" in Presidential Candidates (and I am not amongst them. I'm looking forward to helping elect Hillary Clinton! But I digress...) please be aware that in addition to Mr. McMullen, there are many more fine "third party" and alternative candidates to choose from, including The Antichrist, Dat Ass, Sydneys Voluptuous Buttocks, Eric Cartman, Foot Cheese, Crawfish Crawfish, Ourlordandsaviour Cthulhu, Deez Nuts, Kermit Frog, Mister Grump, Frederickson Asshat Kazoo, Gary Johnson, and Jill Stein.
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:44 AM on August 8, 2016 [82 favorites]

He's got a week to get 1,000 signatures in Utah. If word gets out, he should be able to hit that.
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Looks like the USA is now officially a Banana Republic.

GO BANANA!
posted by entropicamericana at 9:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Trump has finally broken the MSM "both sides" machine. Numerous MSMers in my feed calling out each Trump lie.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [35 favorites]

I haven't been able to determine, and unless I missed it none of the linked articles mentioned: where's his money coming from?
posted by Dashy at 9:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

The further along this gets the more it seems like Donald Trump is from a future in which Hillary Clinton wins the presidency by an unprecedented landslide and he has gone back in time believing that he alone can stop this from happening. But everything he does makes that future more likely. He's like Voldemort with the prophecy, simultaneously trying to prevent his own defeat and inadvertently assuring its inevitability.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:46 AM on August 8, 2016 [106 favorites]

Ex-CIA, Wharton, and Goldman Sachs - a perfect poster boy for today's center right liberalism.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:46 AM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

I have been following @DanielDale so that I don't have to actually watch any Trump rallies. The latest thread is a real doozy:

Donald Trump, presidential nominee, calls the unemployment rate "one of the biggest hoaxes in American modern politics." What does this even meeeaaaaan??

The election system, the political parties, the media, the Bureau of Labor Statistics - Trump's theme is "trust no one and nothing but me." The demagogue/dictator approach is still going strong I see.

It's all so laughably crazy but terrifying at the same time?
posted by like_neon at 9:46 AM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

How long before the Republican nominee starts shittalking the Olympic team? Three days? A week?
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:48 AM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

I thought he was running for D/CIA under Hillary.

Either that or Grand Potentate of Utah.

He's running for Winning Answer At Your Local Bar's 2018 Trivia Night, at best
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:48 AM on August 8, 2016 [64 favorites]

So it's been fun eating all the popcorn and watching this thing go nuts over the last few weeks, but I'm ready to get off the roller coaster now. This sort of insanity can't keep going til November, right? Right!?
posted by andruwjones26 at 9:48 AM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

What is the "MSM machine"?
posted by VTX at 9:48 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Grand Potentate of Utah Deseret.

My hunch is that Evan McMullen will have no effect on the race at all. I'd say there's a very good chance that by next month everyone will be asking themselves "Who was Evan McMullen?"
posted by octobersurprise at 9:49 AM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ex-CIA, Wharton, and Goldman Sachs - a perfect poster boy for today's center right liberalism.

So center-right and liberal he was until this morning the House Republican Conference's policy chief.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:49 AM on August 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

MSM = Mainstream Media
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:50 AM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

The further along this gets the more it seems like Donald Trump is from a future in which Hillary Clinton wins the presidency by an unprecedented landslide and he has gone back in time believing that he alone can stop this from happening.

I can't find the tweet anymore, but something to the effect of "What if Donald Trump's election is why we've never seen any time travelers from the future?" literally kept me awake last night.
posted by Etrigan at 9:50 AM on August 8, 2016 [89 favorites]

What is the "MSM machine"?

Chuck Todd's Tinder handle
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:50 AM on August 8, 2016 [75 favorites]

As a sort-of aside, are there any court cases on the legality of gerrymandering which might be on track to make it to the supreme court or otherwise become law of the land? I guess I'm now curious if it's illegal in any state.
posted by maxwelton at 9:50 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Donald Trump, presidential nominee, calls the unemployment rate "one of the biggest hoaxes in American modern politics." What does this even meeeaaaaan??

Republicans have for years been saying unemployment is understated in the official report because it doesn't count people who have stopped looking for work.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:50 AM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

So center-right and liberal he was until this morning the House Republican Conference's policy chief.

Right, my point exactly.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:51 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

DAT ASS/DEEZ NUTS 2016
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:51 AM on August 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

where's his money coming from?

He has organizational help from Republican consultants Rick Wilson and Joel Searby. He is getting some funding from John Kingston, a conservative banker and donor who helped Mitt Romney in his 2012 effort.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:52 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Asshat Kazoo, Gary Johnson, and Jill Stein.

There's not a dime's worth of difference!
posted by octobersurprise at 9:53 AM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

(According to Wikipedia, only Iowa offers anything like a science-based approach to districting.

Washington, Idaho, California, and Arizona have commissions, in theory non-partison, to handle districting.

Montana, Wyoming and the Dakotas have no districts.

Everyone else gets to watch their legislatures fuck around with that instead of doing actual work.)
posted by maxwelton at 9:54 AM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm sad #neverTrump is so fractured, but I am beginning to believe that all of our efforts combined will win.
posted by corb at 9:55 AM on August 8, 2016 [39 favorites]

That FEC page includes a Clinton, Bill which is really confusing me. Is it some guy with the same name, or is it fraud, and why claim the "Democratic-Farm-Labor" party if you're based in Texas?
posted by ckape at 9:56 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's probably a joke, not fraud. After Deez Nuts there have been a lot of joke filings.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:57 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

MSM, in my world, also stands for men who have sex with men. So, an MSM machine would be bringing all the boys to the yard, as they say.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:58 AM on August 8, 2016 [35 favorites]

Didn't we do this two months ago? I guess this guy is nominally more qualified than David French but I doubt that he's got any better chance.
posted by octothorpe at 9:59 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

FACT CHECK: Trump said Detroit and Michigan are run at all levels by Democrats. Michigan's Gov is Republican.

Also both chambers of MI state legislature. This is a written speech?
posted by zombieflanders at 10:00 AM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

...is this the new thread?
posted by infinitewindow at 10:00 AM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Republicans have for years been saying unemployment is understated in the official report because it doesn't count people who have stopped looking for work.

Eight years, in fact. Shockingly, this grave miscarriage of statistical justice started happening the moment a black Democrat was elected president. Prior to that, it was a perfectly cromulent yardstick. (Except for '92-'00, then it was underreporting again.)
posted by Mayor West at 10:01 AM on August 8, 2016 [83 favorites]

Google tells me that there are a lot of companies called "MSM Machine" or some variation. One of those might specialize in making said machine.

MSM = Mainstream Media

Thanks for clearing it up!
posted by VTX at 10:01 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm fascinated by the concept of Utah flipping blue, but the thought of it mattering in an electoral sense is pretty comical. Also, it's Libertarian Johnson that's might help flip Utah, not this guy.
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:01 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

...is this the new thread?
Oui.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:01 AM on August 8, 2016

"Let's flip Utah!"

Sounds great. Arizona and Georgia are now floating into toss-up territory, and Virginia is locked down. Taking Utah only makes sense if you can hold AZ and GA. And take PA. And OH. And FL. And hope the 269-269 math works out.

Trying to siphon off Utah is like betting that the Pirates will win the NL Central because they'll sweep the Reds in September while the Cards and Cubs somehow manage to cancel each other out. A team that has a 0.1% chance of winning the division. Good luck with that.
posted by dw at 10:02 AM on August 8, 2016

MSM is like "ATM Machine" - adding the word 'machine' is redundant
posted by pointystick at 10:02 AM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

There's not a dime's worth of difference!

Hey hey hey. At least with Johnson I agree with every other thing he says.
posted by Talez at 10:02 AM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

FACT CHECK: Trump said Detroit and Michigan are run at all levels by Democrats. Michigan's Gov is Republican.
Also both chambers of MI state legislature. This is a written speech?

Well, obviously he didn't mean NOW.
posted by waitingtoderail at 10:02 AM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

What did they say to you to get you to sell the GOP down the river?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

Cookiebastard: there are many more fine "third party" and alternative candidates to choose from, including The Antichrist, Dat Ass, Sydneys Voluptuous Buttocks, Eric Cartman, Foot Cheese, Crawfish Crawfish, Ourlordandsaviour Cthulhu, Deez Nuts, Kermit Frog, Mister Grump, Frederickson Asshat Kazoo, Gary Johnson, and Jill Stein.

Don't forget J. R. "Bob" Dobbs, my perennial write-in candidate.

And before anyone complains, I save my write-ins for unopposed candidates that I don't support.
posted by SansPoint at 10:07 AM on August 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

Taking Utah only makes sense if you can hold AZ and GA.

The whole point of taking Utah is that they're sticking a Mormon Republican as their campaigner because they know Utahns will vote for *any* Mormon over Trump. Once you get a vote you throw it to the house, put your stuffed shirt in and either rule the executive branch from the legislature or the VP is the real president they're trying to install.
posted by Talez at 10:07 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is a written speech?

So, how's the re-re-reboot going?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:07 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

This guy is clearly going to be story of the week before disappearing for all time, so I guess we should try and make the thread last us that long.
posted by Artw at 10:08 AM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

NEW Monmouth nat'l poll of likely voters:

Clinton: 50
Trump: 37

Same poll before conventions:

Clinton 45
Trump 43

FWIW, 538 rates them as an "A+" pollster.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:09 AM on August 8, 2016 [36 favorites]

If this guy makes it to story of the afternoon I will be fucking amazed.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:10 AM on August 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

He's like Voldemort with the prophecy, simultaneously trying to prevent his own defeat and inadvertently assuring its inevitability.

Now that you mention it, there are a lot of similarities between Voldemort and Trump. Both:
-may not be part of the class they claim to be
-seem to be quite fine with using racists for their own gain
-want to ban an entire group of people from immigrating into their society
-get into fights with babies and lose

At least Trump does not have horcruxes. I hope.
posted by ultranos at 10:10 AM on August 8, 2016 [123 favorites]

Clinton: 50
Trump: 37

Ouch.

I love it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:10 AM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

This guy is clearly going to be story of the week before disappearing for all time, so I guess we should try and make the thread last us that long.

or until trump punches a republican senator's veteran grandmother, whichever comes first
posted by murphy slaw at 10:10 AM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

FWIW, 538 rates them as an "A+" pollster.

He shits the bed at the Battle of Monmouth.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:11 AM on August 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

Republicans have for years been saying unemployment is understated in the official report because it doesn't count people who have stopped looking for work.

Which, of course, ignores the fact that there are multiple measurements of unemployment and some of them do count people who have stopped looking for work.

And those numbers are looking pretty good. Not fantastic, but pretty good.

On the other hand, the President is black.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:11 AM on August 8, 2016 [28 favorites]

Jesus, 13 points?

For reference, Bush Sr.'s epic thrashing of Dukakis was an 8-point spread.

(I know, it's one poll, it's August, but still.)
posted by argybarg at 10:11 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

At least with Johnson I agree with every other thing he says.

I feel like I could go rock climbing with him, at least. I could learn to overlook the incessant Grateful Dead, probably.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:12 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

At least Trump does not have horcruxes. I hope.

His hairpiece.
posted by Fizz at 10:13 AM on August 8, 2016 [38 favorites]

What did they say to you to get you to sell the GOP down the river?

Did Reince Priebus know about the dinner?
Was there Super-PAC pressure to deliver?
posted by dw at 10:15 AM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

Supposedly there's more DNC email that may be released, right? And the drumbeat about Trump's whole organization's ties to Russia continues to build.

I wonder if part of this guy's appeal, to his backers, is that he's well positioned to make hay of that on all fronts.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:15 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

[TRUMP]
Hillary doesn’t hesitate
She exhibits no restraint
She takes and she takes and she takes
And she keeps winning anyway
She changes the game
She plays and she raises the stakes
And if there’s a reason
She seems to thrive when she always lie, then Goddamnit—
I'm willing to whine about it
posted by dw at 10:18 AM on August 8, 2016 [34 favorites]

Tim kaine campaigning in Austin. Yes. In Texas.
posted by waitingtoderail at 10:19 AM on August 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

The Upshot: Clinton has 1021 ways to win; Trump has 2 ways to win. Mississippi [!] is on the NYT's list of competitive states now.

If Clinton wins Iowa and Trump wins Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Ohio, Clinton wins.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:19 AM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

At least Trump does not have horcruxes. I hope.

Trump would say he had lots of horcruxes. HUGE horcruxes. The BEST horcruxes. But on investigation, we'd find that he'd never actually killed anybody and all the magical artifacts he used were cheap copies.
posted by wabbittwax at 10:20 AM on August 8, 2016 [45 favorites]

These polls with huge Hillary leads aren't necessarily predictive of where the race will be in November. BUT they do put huge pressure on Senate candidates like Toomey, Ayotte, and McCain. Embrace Trump? Cut bait? The longer the polls say +10 Hillary, the more fractured the GOP will get.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:21 AM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

My SO is traveling through Tennessee, Arkansas, and Texas. I've asked him to report daily because I don't understand the South. He has reported that he has seen a lot of crosses on the side of the interstate, but no Trump signs. I'm disturbing him by suggesting that those crosses will actually be put to practical use at some point in an apocalyptic future. But no Trump signs. Maybe my SO has to go farther away from the interstate to see the Trump.

Really as a non-believer, this cross business is so weird to me. What if Christ died for our sins in some other way, like roiling acid or leeches. Would we have leech art on our wall. Gah.
posted by angrycat at 10:21 AM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

Mississippi [!] is on the NYT's list of competitive states now.

Missouri.
posted by EarBucket at 10:22 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

No, I guess they are rating Mississippi as more competitive than Missouri. That seems weird to me.
posted by EarBucket at 10:24 AM on August 8, 2016

So like does he create a new horcrux every time he files for bankruptcy?
posted by guiseroom at 10:25 AM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

So like does he create a new horcrux every time he files for bankruptcy?

God help us all!
posted by wabbittwax at 10:26 AM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

We should be very careful not to get overconfident. I won't be able to not worry until the results are in on November 8. Remember how sure everyone was last year that Trump was a bad joke who would surely disappear any second now? I think Hillary will win but we shouldn't take anything for granted in this crazy election cycle.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:27 AM on August 8, 2016 [84 favorites]

Mississippi has a sizable Hispanic population post-Katrina to go along with its huge African-American population. Missouri doesn't have the same conditions; it's really drifted to the right in the last 20 years.
posted by dw at 10:27 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh god, one of Trump's "economic advisors" is saying they project economic growth under Trump's plan over 4% per year. He says that after Reagan's tax cuts, about 10 years later they had a balanced budget. YES BECAUSE THEY RAISED TAXES AGAIN YOU BUFFOON.
posted by Justinian at 10:27 AM on August 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

i dunno how much we can extrapolate from trump's victory in the primaries. he was the only one with any broad name recognition amongst a squabbling field of 17 candidates.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:29 AM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

We should be very careful not to get overconfident. I won't be able to not worry until the results are in on November 8. Remember how sure everyone was last year that Trump was a bad joke who would surely disappear any second now?

Sure, but Trump actually led in the polls and everyone expected the poll numbers to change. They didn't. The current situation isn't really the same thing.
posted by LionIndex at 10:29 AM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Which, of course, ignores the fact that there are multiple measurements of unemployment and some of them do count people who have stopped looking for work.

Here's a chart explaining the different measures of unemployment, which have all been changing in about the same way. You can link this 100 times in a thread about how the government lies about unemployment numbers and it won't do any good at all, but there it is.
posted by Huck500 at 10:29 AM on August 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

No, I guess they are rating Mississippi as more competitive than Missouri. That seems weird to me.

Mississippi has the largest proportion of African-American people (37% as of 2010) in the country. Since Clinton will likely win most of those voters, even a small percentage of white people voting for her could make the state much closer than it has been recently.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:30 AM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

he was the only one with any broad name recognition amongst a squabbling field of 17 candidates.

I don't know, I think the named "Bush" probably rang a few bells here and there, as well.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:30 AM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Maybe my SO has to go farther away from the interstate to see the Trump.

I live in Alabama and I have seen very few Trump signs or bumper stickers, and I'm in a suburb of Birmingham that's 75% white. I've found that very interesting. Also, the story I saw about the Clinton ad that is Trump on the Letterman show said it's being pushed in battleground states, but I'm seeing it all the time in Birmingham. Either they went with a national buy, or Alabama is more in play than I would expect.

No, I guess they are rating Mississippi as more competitive than Missouri. That seems weird to me.

Mississippi has the largest proportion of black voters in the nation, I believe. Plus, the media costs would be much cheaper than Missouri. Frankly, I would really love to see recent polling from more deep south states.
posted by ndfine at 10:31 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

or until trump punches a republican senator's veteran grandmother, whichever comes first

After which, CNN will spend the afternoon talking about how many grandmothers older than 90 died in New York while Hillary was a senator.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:31 AM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

I remember when Trump was a bad joke. Hell, I don't remember a time when we wasn't a bad joke. He wasn't even a joke. For almost my entire life, he has been a punchline. No setup. Just a punchline. And it stopped being funny a long time ago.
posted by wabbittwax at 10:33 AM on August 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

Did we ever get to Steve? I think I fell asleep in the backseat and Cortex carried me inside and tucked me in my own bed.
posted by rikschell at 10:34 AM on August 8, 2016 [36 favorites]

i dunno how much we can extrapolate from trump's victory in the primaries. he was the only one with any broad name recognition amongst a squabbling field of 17 candidates.
murphy slaw

I'm not sure if you meant it that way, but this is exactly the line I've been hearing from my conservative friends/conservatives online: Trump doesn't represent Republicans and his rise says absolutely nothing about the party, he's just some freak accident of celebrity.

It's a form of denial among Republicans to avoid having to confront the possibility that their policies or views just maybe led to Trump and his racist xenophobic nationalism.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:36 AM on August 8, 2016 [33 favorites]

I can't find the tweet anymore, but something to the effect of "What if Donald Trump's election is why we've never seen any time travelers from the future?" literally kept me awake last night.

omg could "Donald Trump" be the answer to Fermi's paradox?
posted by indubitable at 10:37 AM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

So is there any meaningful difference between this guy and this guy?* Or are we just in a world where reality no longer has any coherent meaning, and so some guy who should probably be running for President of his freshman class seems as credible a candidate as anyone else?

Seriously, people run weirdo campaigns for President literally all the time. They don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning. They don't get on the ballot. They're just goofball campaigns meant to feed someone's delusions. What is different about this guy? I don't see anything. Thinking he's going to become the standard bearer for pissed off Mormons and giving Clinton Utah sounds about as likely as Lyndon LaRouche claiming (as he did) that the Democratic Party would nominate him by acclamation in 1980 because they knew Jimmy Carter stood no chance against Reagan.

* I mean either one would be preferable to Trump, obviously.
posted by Naberius at 10:38 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think this is a really weak story use as a framework for this week's election thread - he's not even going to be able to get on the ballot in many places and there's little evidence of substantial organization or fundraising to indicate that this is a serious bid
posted by the_querulous_night at 10:38 AM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

It was a fucking awful field of candidates, but they sure did drop out in order of inverse awfulness, so make no mistake: Republucans select for that shit.
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

This is silly. For one thing, it's too late to get on the ballot in a lot of states. Perot, for instance, began his effort back in February in 1992.
posted by ph00dz at 10:38 AM on August 8, 2016

I just moved 20 miles north of Seattle a couple of weeks ago and am seeing my first Trump billboards and bumper stickers and whatnot in person. Not a huge amount, but they're noticeable, like the enormous TRUMP billboard a quarter mile down the road from my new place, or the truck parked in the spot next to mine the other morning with TRUMP NATION and HILLARY FOR PRISON painted on the back window (and LET'S GET WEIRD on the driver's side extended cab window).
posted by palomar at 10:40 AM on August 8, 2016

What is different about this guy? I don't see anything. Thinking he's going to become the standard bearer for pissed off Mormons and giving Clinton Utah sounds about as likely as Lyndon LaRouche claiming (as he did) that the Democratic Party would nominate him by acclamation in 1980 because they knew Jimmy Carter stood no chance against Reagan.

The various StopTrump PACs have real money.
posted by corb at 10:44 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Shortest election thread ever.
posted by mazola at 10:44 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

So is there any meaningful difference between this guy and this guy?

One of them has a hedge fund manager behind them.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:44 AM on August 8, 2016

Really as a non-believer, this cross business is so weird to me. What if Christ died for our sins in some other way, like roiling acid or leeches. Would we have leech art on our wall. Gah.

If he had been executed by electric chair or lethal injection the market for tasers and hypodermic syringes would probably be quite interesting.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Republucans

That's a great typo.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just moved 20 miles north of Seattle a couple of weeks ago and am seeing my first Trump billboards and bumper stickers and whatnot in person.

I drove from Seattle to Vancouver a couple weeks ago and the Trump signs were surprisingly thick once you got north of Marysville. Another reminder that while Seattle is a very left-wing town, the libertarian right owns the drives to Portland and Vancouver.
posted by dw at 10:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

I see the occasional Make America Great Again hat or sticker, always on angry old white men or their trucks, but not as many as I was expecting by this point in the year, in Texas. Meanwhile, when I hear anyone talk about the election around me they mostly say "Trump, ugh, no, so awful."

I told my husband that although I still can't relax till November, shared horror over Trump has made me feel closer to my Republican fellow citizens than I have in a very long time. It's almost heartwarming, in a really disconcerting way.
posted by emjaybee at 10:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

Palomar - try driving down through Aberdeen.

Though weirdly though I saw a lot of TRUMP and HILARY FOR PRISON around there, there wasn't a sign of PENCE, so maybe it's all pre-convention?
posted by Artw at 10:46 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

> The further along this gets the more it seems like Donald Trump is from a future in which Hillary Clinton wins the presidency by an unprecedented landslide and he has gone back in time believing that he alone can stop this from happening. But everything he does makes that future more likely. He's like Voldemort with the prophecy, simultaneously trying to prevent his own defeat and inadvertently assuring its inevitability.

Okay but alternately what if he's from the future where Ted Cruz became president? What if he escaped from the grimdark gulags where Cruz's many enemies are forced to perform scenes from Princess Bride over and over again in one great horde, like a North Korean mass dance but with more ambidextrous swashbuckling? What if he somehow knew that the only way to prevent America and the world from being driven to the pain forever was to travel back in time and spend decades debasing himself just enough to appeal to the Republican Party primary voters of 2016 and then throw the election to Clinton?

What then, huh?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:47 AM on August 8, 2016 [62 favorites]

Evan McMullin is like the knuckleheads that tried to overthrow Erdogan in Turkey. Too little and way too late.
posted by JJ86 at 10:48 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Really as a non-believer, this cross business is so weird to me. What if Christ died for our sins in some other way, like roiling acid or leeches. Would we have leech art on our wall. Gah.

This is why Mithraism never really took off, it's hard to make a blood-gunked grated pit iconic. What did Christ understand that lesser saviors didn't? That's right, branding
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:48 AM on August 8, 2016 [56 favorites]

Wow, Kaine spending time in Texas is a major deal. It suggests that the Clinton campaign has internal polling for Texas (because IIRC Texas is almost never polled) that suggests that even if flipping the state is very difficult that they could force Trump (who is incredibly thin on the ground) to play defense.

The fact that the Clinton campaign is not just locking down their Blue Wall but also creating a backup New South strategy is a big deal and one that could have deep ramifications not just for the presidency but on down ballot races.
posted by vuron at 10:49 AM on August 8, 2016 [100 favorites]

Dave Weigel of WaPo: Armed with junk science and old photos, critics question #HillarysHealth
posted by DynamiteToast at 10:51 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Really as a non-believer, this cross business is so weird to me. What if Christ died for our sins in some other way, like roiling acid or leeches. Would we have leech art on our wall. Gah.

I read an alt-history story in which Jesus had been only a minor player in the story of John the Baptist. The followers of the ensuing religion, known as Baptists, wore small silver pins in the shape of their holy symbol: a severed head on a platter.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:52 AM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

Evan has inspired me to run my own campaign. My slogan is "A white guy!" and it's me giving a thumbs up holding a sign that says "jobs!"

I've already been endorsed by Newt Gingrich and a parody twitter account for Gerry Gergich.

Also pony request: Seattle people, now that I'm moved away you have to drive down Nickerson steet and tell me what the new "Wake up, America!" sign (across the street from the house boats) says because good gravy I miss Seattle. Surely some biting commentary about the state of American Sheeple.
posted by Tevin at 10:52 AM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

I love that the 2016 Republican Party is so dysfunctional that it's both the only place where affirmative action actually does mean that massively unqualified candidates for a job are given unfair advantages because of their gender or ethnicity, and, assuming some idiot billionaire blows a couple hundred million dollars on McMullin's laughable campaign, a rare actual example of trickle-down economics.
posted by Copronymus at 10:54 AM on August 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

Wow, Kaine spending time in Texas is a major deal. It suggests that the Clinton campaign has internal polling for Texas (because IIRC Texas is almost never polled) that suggests that even if flipping the state is very difficult that they could force Trump (who is incredibly thin on the ground) to play defense.

Regarding campaigning in Texas, she said this in an article published at the end of May

I asked her whether the time she was spending in Kentucky, a red state, reflected more than her desire to win the primary there the following week (which she did, by a hair). Her eyes lit up; it’s as if she’d been waiting for someone to ask her about the surprising possibilities of the electoral map this year. So which states do you think Trump puts in play? I asked, mentioning the possibility of Georgia, which some think could go Democratic for the first time since her husband won it in 1992.

“Texas!” she exclaimed, eyes wide, as if daring me to question this, which I did. “You are not going to win Texas,” I said. She smiled, undaunted. “If black and Latino voters come out and vote, we could win Texas,” she told me firmly, practically licking her lips.

She definitely thinks Texas is on the cards as a stretch goal.
posted by Francis at 10:55 AM on August 8, 2016 [85 favorites]

Republucans

That's a great typo.

I'm surprised that nobody's coined #Blutah in this thread yet, but I'll happily take the credit.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:56 AM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Godfrey's tweetstorm on the vote fraud claims makes the simple-yet-devastating point that you'd have to be a moron to falsify a unanimous vote for any candidate because then anyone who voted for the loser would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that their ballot wasn't counted. And yet nobody spoke up in any of those divisions.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:56 AM on August 8, 2016 [57 favorites]

On the one hand, a 13-point defeat sounds like it would be the firm repudiation that we need to finally drive a stake into the heart of white supremacy as a central tenet of a major political party.

On the other hand, Mondale took an 18-point, 500+ EV thrashing in '88, and it wasn't enough to destroy the Democratic party, so...
posted by Mayor West at 10:56 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Living in Massachusetts, just about the only Trump sign I saw thus far was actually a giant flag, on a bicycle rode by a white guy down Rt 1. The fact that he had one of those child trailer type attachments (presumably with a child inside) and was driving what seemed like a dangerously unstable bike/flagpole combination down a major road on which bikes enter at their own peril seemed like a cogent commentary on the nature of Trump's supporters.
posted by tocts at 10:57 AM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

Evan has inspired me to run my own campaign. My slogan is "A white guy!" and it's me giving a thumbs up holding a sign that says "jobs!"

It's really not about that. It's about giving Republican voters someone to vote for that's not Trump, where they don't feel like they are betraying everything they believe in by voting Clinton. Even if the ultimate upshot is Clinton gets elected. That distance may seem silly, but it's important.
posted by corb at 10:57 AM on August 8, 2016 [26 favorites]

Also pony request: Seattle people, now that I'm moved away you have to drive down Nickerson steet and tell me what the new "Wake up, America!" sign (across the street from the house boats) says because good gravy I miss Seattle. Surely some biting commentary about the state of American Sheeple.

That sign has been consistently pro-left-socialism in the eight or so years I've been here.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:57 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Driving through Detroit the other day, I saw an ad for (warning: strip club website) Trumpps Detroit, a strip club that's apparently been around since 1989. That name, with the extra 'p' and lack of apostrophe, was transparently a deliberate choice to glom onto a certain Trumpy tacky luxury aesthetic, but I'll bet their ruing their homophonous pairing these days.
posted by palindromic at 10:57 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Really as a non-believer, this cross business is so weird to me. What if Christ died for our sins in some other way, like roiling acid or leeches. Would we have leech art on our wall. Gah.

They could all be followers of some Odin cult and their symbol be blood eagles, so we got off kind of easy.
posted by maxsparber at 10:59 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trumpps Detroit

Drop the initial T and you've actually increased the classiness of your strip club's name.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:00 AM on August 8, 2016 [27 favorites]

Good faith question, posed to a group of people with collectively way more electoral knowledge than me: why does it seem to be generally assumed that politicians' internal polls are more accurate or more believable than widely-available external polling data? And if they in fact are, why don't external polling agencies learn whatever internal polling is doing and ... do the same thing?
posted by penduluum at 11:01 AM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

DynamiteToast - I fell down a hell-hole of #HillarysHealth on Twitter last night and I could not for the life of me figure out where the stairs photo came from. Thanks for the Weigel article. It was certainly enlightening because all I could gather from the tweets I was reading is that Hillary has Parkinson's or something to that effect and therefore is dangerous.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:02 AM on August 8, 2016

On the other hand, Mondale took an 18-point, 500+ EV thrashing in '88, and it wasn't enough to destroy the Democratic party, so...

On the other hand compare Mondale's policy platform to Clinton's in '92. It was a vast swing.
posted by Francis at 11:02 AM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

On the other hand, Mondale took an 18-point, 500+ EV thrashing in '88, and it wasn't enough to destroy the Democratic party, so...

1984. And arguably, it did. It led to a shift to the right over the next 8 years culminating in "neo-liberal" Bill Clinton getting elected president. It also led to the superdelegates coming to the fore to help keep the far left from trying to hijack the election (as it was argued they did in '80 and '84 with Ted Kennedy and Gary Hart even though they weren't exactly "leftists" in the way Sanders is).

2016 has been about the re-awakening of the left wing of the Democratic party. We'll see what happens as the left and center of the Democrats learn to work together again.
posted by dw at 11:04 AM on August 8, 2016 [26 favorites]

It's really not about that. It's about giving Republican voters someone to vote for that's not Trump, where they don't feel like they are betraying everything they believe in by voting Clinton. Even if the ultimate upshot is Clinton gets elected. That distance may seem silly, but it's important.

It also sets the stage for a battle for the soul of the GOP that would be based on some sort of empirical numbers, rather than trying to divine who voted for Clinton with their noses held.

to repeat myself from the other thread, the most interesting part to me is the effect it could have on downticket races if his candidacy actually became a thing. Would it get more Republicans to the polls who would otherwise stay home rather than vote for Trump or Clinton? Or would it enrage the Trump base to see GOP elites trying to stop their candidate, and cost the Republicans their votes for legislatures, governor, etc?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:05 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Suburban Mass. - There's a road I drive on maybe once every 4-6 weeks or so, and a homeowner abutting this road erected an oversized TRUMP sign several months ago, two-sided and oriented facing traffic. Each time I've driven down the road, The Sign has alternated between being clearly vandalized and being replaced by a New, Larger Sign, higher and higher off the ground. The last time I went through that neighborhood, The Sign was 20 feet or so off the ground, bolted to a tree, and had a little sign underneath that said "Smile! You're on camera!".
posted by the painkiller at 11:05 AM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

And yet nobody spoke up in any of those divisions.

FOX News pundits yakyak a lot about (fake) election fraud, but it's too bad they lack the imagination to scale up and consider, say, the effects of Putin's crew hacking our election machines.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:08 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

More good news for Donald Trump!

Florida Republican Party spokesman quitting because of Trump

posted by murphy slaw at 11:10 AM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

It’s not just that Donald Trump needs to pivot – it’s that he needs to pivot away from being what’s made him Donald Trump. That means traditional-candidate Trump, maybe even boring-candidate Trump, reading from notes or TelePrompTers, and staying away from interviews and Twitter for a while.
...
Remember, with Trump, dominating news cycles is not his problem. It’s dominating them with a message his party can rally behind that has proved vexing.

posted by kirkaracha at 11:11 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

why does it seem to be generally assumed that politicians' internal polls are more accurate or more believable than widely-available external polling data?

I believe it is because campaigns pay lots of money for their internal polls, which can get them better data. There is probably much less profit in public polling.
posted by snofoam at 11:11 AM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

FOX News pundits yakyak a lot about (fake) election fraud, but it's too bad they lack the imagination to scale up and consider, say, the effects of Putin's crew hacking our election machines.


Putin's hackers probably lack the expertise to target black voters so it's a non-issue.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:11 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Around the corner from my house, there is a truck my wife and I call the Fail Truck because it sports bumper stickers of unsuccessful Republican candidates. It started this campaign season with a Ben Carson sticker that was clearly printed from an Avery label kit, to a smaller Cruz sticker, and now more recently a ginormous new, professional Ben Carson sticker the size of a dinner plate that the truck owner must have got at a deep discount.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:12 AM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

Brian Beutler: Donald Trump is now running Mitt Romney’s campaign plus racism

By advancing a supply-side tax reform that would allow him to bequeath his estate to his children tax free, Trump has surrendered his claim to populism populism, and left himself vulnerable to criticism from Hillary Clinton, who proposes a more genuinely populist tax increase on rich people. To head off those attacks, Trump could have promised to tax the wealthy in other, comparable ways, or propose income support measures for the poor and working class. But those ideas offend GOP leaders like Ryan, so instead of seeking policy balance, he decided to lie about Hillary Clinton’s tax plan instead, and claim that she pledged to raise middle-class taxes.

This never happened, not even in a slip-of-the-tongue kind of way. Clinton specifically promises not to raise taxes on the middle class. But pretending otherwise is the only way Trump can neutralize the weaknesses his new tax policy creates. As a rhetorical gambit this closely resembles the way Republicans distorted and decontextualized President Obama’s words four years ago, to make him seem hostile to business owners, and blunt Democratic criticism of Mitt Romney’s regressive economic policies.

posted by zombieflanders at 11:13 AM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

@ryanstruyk: "Whites in new Monmouth poll:

Men w/o degree: Trump +31
Women w/o degree: Trump +17
Men w/ degree: Trump +11
Women w/ degree: Clinton +30"

I think that this is one of the big stories of this election season. UT and GA even being in question is emblematic of it. Republican presidential efforts hinge on dominating the white vote. trump, for a number of reasons, cannot do that. I don't think that even McMullin really believes he has a snowball's chance at the presidency, but I'm hoping that all of this fracturing in the Republican electorate might point to a massive shift of the Overton window. Bush's victories, the obstructionist tea party, and trump's bald appeal to white nationalism have thrown us so far out of whack that even modest governance from the legislative branch is impossible.

I think, in large part, that's because safe gerrymandered districts mean that many House and Senate seats are officially won in the primary, with whatever right leaning candidate that can be crazy enough to win on GOTV ultimately taking the prize. Then, once in office, moderates have no incentive to bargain and work with Dems, because they cannot give their far right challengers any ammo, and they have no incentive to try and win the general.

I'm praying (such as I pray, anyway) for a Democratic sweep this year for two reasons: one, is that with significant Dem influence on the rules of elections, we might finally get electoral reform that make gerrymandering obsolete; and two, the prospect of the Republican party becoming a rump party made up of a dwindling number of white nationalist voters, and some other party taking up fiscally conservative, socially liberal politics. I will never in a million years vote right wing, but not having to worry about a number of basic civil rights every time I cast a ballot would make me more open to voting further left than the Democratic party, and in general would lead us towards bi-partisan efforts for things like drug legalization, immigration reform, and securing reproductive rights.

Every major Republican loss (and Utah would be a shattering one) brings that closer to reality.
posted by codacorolla at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2016 [27 favorites]

Guys, guys, I just realized that, based on Etrigan's comment in the previous Megathread, it is not entirely impossible that McMullin entering the race could lead to the following outcome, if no candidate gets 270 votes and the House ends up deadlocked:

Joe Biden could be acting president of the United States.
Forever.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2016 [47 favorites]

I'm a devout Washington Nationals fan. If I'm not at the game, I'm usually watching it on TV.

The most common camera angle is behind the pitcher, facing the batter, so you can watch the entire at-bat, right?

The problem is that you see the people in the first row. And one of the guys in the front row behind home plate at home games wears a "Make America Great Again" hat.

Every.

Goddamned.

Night.

I don't know why that's relevant. I guess it isn't.

I just needed to get that out.
posted by Thistledown at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

In our neighborhood, the Fail Truck is the jacked-up Chevy Silverado with the (I shit you not) eight-foot Confederate Battle Flag flying from the roll bars.

That it has begun sporting a Trump 2016 sticker has come as a surprise to no one.
posted by Mooski at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think the Texas strategy is bold but is also built around some solid foundations.

1)The Demographics of the state are changing dramatically. Counties that were red even 4 years ago could conceivably shift towards the Democrats.
2)Urbanization of the population is resulting in massive concentrations of voters in the Texas Triangle of Houston-DFW-San Antonio/Austin. These locations are increasingly becoming much more tolerant due to widespread exposure to people outside of your demographic background. While segmentation in suburbs is still very present it's a tangible factor.
3)The Trump effect is very much present in Texas. While there are plenty of angry white guys (seriously guys can you import some of ours to your neck of the woods) there are heaps of minority voters that are going "WTF!" and while it's largely anecdotes I'm getting a very clear picture that minority groups (African-Americans, Latinos, LGBTQ, etc) are not just deeply aware of the potential ramifications of this election but also have an increased desire to participate in the process.
4)In contrast outside of a small group of very vocal supporters I know virtually no Republicans that are excited about Trump. While many or even most will still loyally vote Republican in November the enthuisasm gap is tangible.
5)Court decisions regarding Texas's Voter ID rules are quite likely to result in less disenfranchisement of voters which is a very good thing for both Voter rights and Clinton.
6)The possibility of shedding the "OF course it's Texas!" jokes would be sweet.

I wouldn't put in massive sums of money or personnel but the idea that it could even be competitive could definitely influence some House Races.
posted by vuron at 11:15 AM on August 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

Around the corner from my house, there is a truck my wife and I call the Fail Truck because it sports bumper stickers of unsuccessful Republican candidates.

Mrs. Ocschwar's first car had a number sticker for a Libertarian, because in the days before wireless unlocking, a rare number sticker made it easier to find the car in a large parking lot.
posted by ocschwar at 11:16 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm convinced Donald Trump doesn't really want to be president. He knows it would be hard work and no fun at all. So he keeps saying more and more horrible things but the GOP voters just won't react.
posted by Bee'sWing at 11:17 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm convinced Donald Trump doesn't really want to be president. He knows it would be hard work and no fun at all.

Well, I think he's finding out that it would be hard work and no fun at all, but my money's on him not having given much thought to it at all beyond Being In Charge.

He can do Being In Charge - he's been doing that his whole life, right?
posted by Mooski at 11:20 AM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

We should be very careful not to get overconfident. I won't be able to not worry until the results are in on November 8.

I'm totally with you on this and have said so in every thread. But now I'm trying to put a more positive spin on it for my own mental health.

It's not so much that everyone needs to keep their heads in the game to prevent any chance of Trump winning. While I firmly believe that any chance of him winning is too high, it's not really about that. He is such a terrible candidate that there is a real possibility now of a landslide victory for Hillary that can trickle down to senate, house, and state races.

We need to keep our game faces on so that we can capitalize on that opportunity and create the largest landslide possible.
posted by VTX at 11:21 AM on August 8, 2016 [28 favorites]

Living in Massachusetts, just about the only Trump sign I saw thus far was actually a giant flag, on a bicycle rode by a white guy down Rt 1.

Come visit me in Middlesex County and I will show you a TON of Trump signs. I live in Scott Brown Country (even though he doesn't/didn't live here). One Trumper even verbally accosted my wife and daughter at the gas pumps of our town's Cumberland Farms because we had the temerity to have a Bernie bumper sticker.
posted by briank at 11:22 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Driving through Detroit the other day, I saw an ad for (warning: strip club website) Trumpps Detroit, a strip club that's apparently been around since 1989. That name, with the extra 'p' and lack of apostrophe, was transparently a deliberate choice to glom onto a certain Trumpy tacky luxury aesthetic, but I'll bet their ruing their homophonous pairing these days.

It sounds like Trump's a fan, though!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:22 AM on August 8, 2016

There’s No Such Thing As A Protest Vote:
A. I prefer Donald Trump be President, rather than Hillary Clinton.
B. I prefer Hillary Clinton be President, rather than Donald Trump.
C. Whatever everybody else decides is OK with me.

That’s it. Those are the choices. All strategies other than a preference for Trump over Clinton or vice-versa reduce to Option C.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:22 AM on August 8, 2016 [101 favorites]

You know, I know a lot of people are kind of cheering about the fracturing of the GOP, but I've actually been thinking, and if even you're a solid Democrat, that's not as good a thing as you might think it is. Let's say 15% - and I'm trying to be conservative - ultimately feel they need to find a new party because the GOP has decided to embrace being the Party of Trump. That's 15% of people who work, generally, really hard, do a lot of volunteering, are active and thinking about politics.

I would lay hard money that the influx of that many people into the Democratic Party would actually pull it back towards the right, not the left. And the Dems would have no reason not to do so - a 65% win sounds way better than a maybe 51% win, every time! It's a real danger - just like it would be if this were a different election, and all the Bernie folks voted R. Large sudden influxes change the parties they migrate to. It's something I've been thinking a lot about, in how to morally switch my party registration - like is it even fair of me to switch to another party (I'm going to, but which one) where my switch could have an outsize impact, given that I volunteer and show up and lobby and all that stuff?
posted by corb at 11:24 AM on August 8, 2016 [33 favorites]

I'm convinced Donald Trump doesn't really want to be president. He knows it would be hard work and no fun at all.

Well, I think he's finding out that it would be hard work and no fun at all, but my money's on him not having given much thought to it at all beyond Being In Charge.

He already said he'd turn everything over to Pence to do the real work. A Trump presidency would be 10% him giving insane media interviews, 5-10% signing ceremonies for whatever ratfuckery came out of the Republican controlled Congress, 5-10% him swooping in to overrule random decisions that Pence had been working on for months, and 70-80% dick waving at China, Iran and Russia/threatening to nuke random countries both allies and adversaries.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:24 AM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

I see Fail Trucks all the fucking time generally with some combination of the following:

Trump Bumper Sticker
Stupid Come and Take it Snake
Cannon and or AR-15 with the come and take it BS
Confederate Battleflag shit
Pro-Life stickers
BIG ASS EXHAUST PIPE
Metal ballsack hanging from the back bumper.

Let me tell you when those guys decide to be mega-dicks and decide to roll coal with their diesels it definitely get me going "Hrmm you know that guy is so alpha he convinced me to vote for Trump!"

I kind of want to go back to the Calvin peeing on stuff days
posted by vuron at 11:25 AM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Mississippi has the largest proportion of African-American people (37% as of 2010) in the country.

Doesn't it also have voter suppression laws put into place to mitigate this? Or have they been struck down?
posted by acb at 11:26 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I drove through rural western Pennsylvania this weekend (along US 30 between Breezewood and Greensburg) and there were a TON of Trump signs. They were the first ones I've seen in the wild, in fact -- not surprising, given that I live in the MD suburbs of DC.

As for Texas, I saw a number of my Texas relatives this weekend also (we were all in PA for a family reunion). All are very conservative, all are deeply pious Catholics, and none of them want to vote for Trump. They won't vote for Hillary, of course -- the level of hate they have for her is almost pathological, but whatever. The sense I got is that several of them may simply skip voting for President.
posted by devinemissk at 11:26 AM on August 8, 2016

Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish: I worked as a Machine Inspector for the City of Philadelphia for several elections, and I can confirm every word he says. Voter fraud does not happen at the polling place level. Voting machines, at least in Philadelphia, do not work that way.

And one thing he missed is that we tape the printouts from the machines to the door of the polling place as well, so anyone can see each individual machine's results.
posted by SansPoint at 11:26 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

So I'm in Beautiful Downtown Burbank, home of Johnny Carson, Disney Studios, The Ellen Show, Warner Brothers, Nickelodeon and every post-production shop and prop-house you've never heard of. Almost everyone in my neighborhood is in "the industry" in one form or another. That's not to say there are no Republicans, but they tend to be socially left-leaning folks.

There is a guy at the end of my block who has about 20 radio antennae atop his house. He has always had a security camera. Every Christmas, he sets up 3 inflatable Santas, one of whom is wearing a sombrero and shaking maracas. At some point this winter, he put up a handmade Trump for President sign. At the first rain, it bled and crumpled. Currently the house is sporting a black and gold hand made (with sticker lettering) sign that I believe is covered in Saran Wrap for weatherproofing. It is the only Trump sign I have seen and I see it every damn day.

I really have got to order that Hillary yard sign.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:27 AM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Usually I see fail trucks tailgating me at 95mph on the interstate. I like to take just slightly too long to let them pass, and then enjoy knowing that they're getting like 6 miles to the gallon redlining their stupid dualie truck down the highway.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:28 AM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm not sure this cycle fits the conventional wisdom criteria for the idea that positive polls can cause people to decide not to vote. I think that concern is oriented around elections where motivating a disinterested base is key, such as 2000 or 2004, but in this case, things are different. This year, people are often personally motivated in profound and varied ways. One of the reasons the DNC was so effective is because it highlighted this so well. This isn't reason to slack off and back down on the GOTV effort or volunteering or donations, but maybe a note of confidence can appear. Run up the score, you never know what might happen.
posted by feloniousmonk at 11:29 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I drove through rural western Pennsylvania this weekend (along US 30 between Breezewood and Greensburg) and there were a TON of Trump signs. They were the first ones I've seen in the wild, in fact -- not surprising, given that I live in the MD suburbs of DC.

This is why I seldom leave the city of Pittsburgh. Twenty miles out of town and you hit Hooterville.
posted by octothorpe at 11:30 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I believe it is because campaigns pay lots of money for their internal polls, which can get them better data. There is probably much less profit in public polling.

Thanks for answering, and again this is entirely in good faith, but: is the mechanism by which more money gets better data known? Hiring more talented pollsters, buying better lists of people to contact? It just seems like a profession where it would be very hard to throw enough money at the problem to ensure advantage. The systems in play are well-known enough to be able to duplicate them, I would think, at less expense. The only thing I can definitely see money doing for you is buying the confidentiality of your employees and contractors, which is very important but doesn't help your polling data. And the information asymmetry seems like it would create a situation where those same employees and contractors would be able to extract a huge amount of money from you without really being able to show any repeatable, provable results.

It's entirely possible I'm missing something. But if I were a candidate, and an independent poll (which I was able to estimate the reliability of, with ratings from other independent agents, at A+) had me at let's say -5, and my own internal poll (which I'm paying large amounts of money for [which I would think would distort reliability] and which I cannot estimate the reliability of [because it's a trade secret]) says I'm +5 ... I can't think of a reason I wouldn't trust the independent poll more. Perhaps of course that's exactly what they're doing; perhaps the value of internal polling isn't that they're more reliable, but just that they're more data points in general, or more specific data, and more data leads to a clearer picture overall.
posted by penduluum at 11:30 AM on August 8, 2016

...dick waving at China, Iran and Russia/threatening to nuke random countries both allies and adversaries

SHHHHHH!! ... that plan is supposed to be a SECRET!
posted by wabbittwax at 11:30 AM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

I remember when Trump was a bad joke. Hell, I don't remember a time when we wasn't a bad joke.

Yes, this is the ongoing surreal experience of many of us from New York / the NE U.S. He has been a jackass of a megalomaniac celeb, established con man, and pathological liar forever, and it's like watching a really terrible movie to see him acting the role of national politician and apparently being taken serious by some sub-population of rubes.
posted by aught at 11:31 AM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

"Whites in new Monmouth poll:

Men w/o degree: Trump +31
Women w/o degree: Trump +17
Men w/ degree: Trump +11
Women w/ degree: Clinton +30"

For point of comparison, in the CCES (a large academic survey) from 2012, white women with degrees were +17 Obama.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:31 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

As a non-New Yorker, my first exposure to Trump was probably through jokes made at his expense by David Letterman.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:33 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Driving through Detroit the other day, I saw an ad for (warning: strip club website) Trumpps Detroit, a strip club that's apparently been around since 1989.

I live outside tacoma and am not really a strip club kind of person so I really, really cannot figure out why that link is greyed out for me.
posted by stet at 11:34 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Been letting Joe Biden use your computer?
posted by wabbittwax at 11:35 AM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

I would lay hard money that the influx of that many people into the Democratic Party would actually pull it back towards the right, not the left.

I don't think they'll become Democrats. Remember, Trump's platform is pretty much the standard GOP platform, just with blunter language. Every single GOP candidate opined on how various parts of the Constitution didn't apply to women, PoC, Muslims, LGBTQ people, the poor, sexual assault survivors, and anybody to the left of Roger Ailes. Every. Single. One.

If Trump loses, they'll just go back to being run-of-the-mill Republicans. And that's the problem.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:35 AM on August 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

For one thing, it's too late to get on the ballot in a lot of states. Perot, for instance, began his effort back in February in 1992.

Or, almost 25 years ago. Plenty of time to get on the ballot. Say what you will about Perot, he could play the long game.

So what states are we thinking Perot might flip this time?
posted by Naberius at 11:37 AM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

I'm definitely sad that so many white males can't seem to let go of their need to maintain a system that is built around elevating ourselves at the cost of virtually every other population.

It will be sad when the multicultural future decides to build worldships and then leave the Earth to the white guys to fight over like tribal warlords. Yes it could probably work well for a post-collapse sci-fi story or game but it just seems sad that we can't seem to accept that other people want their fair share as well.

But I guess the "When you are used to privilege, equality can feel like oppression" quote is definitely true. Sad but true.
posted by vuron at 11:37 AM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

That #HillarysHealth thing is some seriously crackpot conspiracy nonsense. Since when does the Washington Post cover crackpot conspiracy theories?
posted by devinemissk at 11:39 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let's say 15% - and I'm trying to be conservative - ultimately feel they need to find a new party because the GOP has decided to embrace being the Party of Trump.

I honestly really doubt that will happen. As zombieflanders said, the vast majority will still be Republicans. I think the likeliest chance for incremental movement in a progressive direction would happen if there was a blowout this year that was big enough to flip congress and the Dems were able to do some stuff that clearly helps people. Even then, many people might appreciate improvements in areas like healthcare, infrastructure and education, but remain ideologically divided.
posted by snofoam at 11:39 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Since at least 1972.
posted by wabbittwax at 11:40 AM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

The only Trump hat I've seen in the wild was on the man half of a Polish speaking couple at a thrift store in the NW side Chicago neighborhood that is made up primarily of Polish nationals. I know people in the neighborhood and used to work in the neighborhood so I assumed it was just a general protest/racial marker rather than suggestive of voting for Trump.
posted by readery at 11:40 AM on August 8, 2016

The only Trump hat I've seen in the wild was on an Asian guy on the train from Boston to NYC. This was a long time ago, before Trump had even won the primaries, so I was surprised to say the least. I wonder if that guy's still a Trump supporter.
posted by peacheater at 11:43 AM on August 8, 2016

It'll be best for Hillary if the polls stay close. A dangerous trend would be for the traditional folks that don't bother to vote start to think Trump has no chance and thus just stay home in November.
posted by sammyo at 11:43 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

That's what field is for.
posted by dersins at 11:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

People like winner and want to join the winners.

People hate losers and want to abandon the losers.

Clinton having a massive lead would be great because the pile-on effect is real and the demoralization of the Republican base would have significant impacts on down-ballot races.
posted by vuron at 11:45 AM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

Thanks for answering, and again this is entirely in good faith, but: is the mechanism by which more money gets better data known? Hiring more talented pollsters, buying better lists of people to contact?

I believe it is mainly buying better lists, often $30k+ per state, and doing more/better polling on a more detailed level (e.g., a whole range of issues and attitudes versus a couple questions about voting preference). A lot of public polls are done by colleges and news companies and the payoff is that they get to report their poll data. The polling itself is probably done at a loss. By comparison, top polling firms can charge lots of money to campaigns. Think about how much you can justify spending to have accurate polling when that data is going to help you maximize tens of millions of dollars in ad spending.

If a polling firm sucks, then they don't get hired by other campaigns, which is pretty equivalent to being wrong in public and not trusted in the future.
posted by snofoam at 11:46 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

You know, I know a lot of people are kind of cheering about the fracturing of the GOP,

Speaking only for my far-left self, I'm not cheering this at all. I'm cheering a victory (I hope) for more progressive policies and politicians.

That said, I don't think any country benefits from having a single dominant political party. If I ran the circus, I would want there to be many different voices and opinions contributing to the way our country is run. However, I'd want those voices to be operating in such a way that they recognized that they would need to compromise sometimes and recognizing scientific reality sometimes and keep things the same sometimes and let things change sometimes all in the service of the public good.

Sometimes people on the right have ideas that are excellent and sometimes people on the left have ideas that are lousy. I'm sure some of my ideas are lousy. Perhaps even this one.

I don't want to see the collapse of the Republican party - I'd like to see it purge itself of its members who demand ideological purity at the expense of the public good. At the moment, that looks like defeating Trump and getting Republicans like you back into the driver's seat. We don't often agree, but I believe fervently that you are motivated by good will for your fellow humans and a desire to make things better for everyone.*

*And there are of course some Democrats that are more motivated by self-promotion and greed than desire for public good, too. We must continually work to replace them at the voting booth as well.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:47 AM on August 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

Latest Utah poll by the locally respected Dan Jones & Associates shows Trump 12 points ahead of Clinton. Some "former policy director, CIA-agent" who may have to be written in on the ballot is not going to turn Utah Democratic.
posted by pashdown at 11:47 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

GO BANANA!

GO BANANA!
posted by howling fantods at 11:49 AM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Come visit me in Middlesex County...

The same Middlesex County that has Cambridge and Somerville?

Man, MA has some weird county lines. I'm glad we've largely abolished them.
posted by explosion at 11:49 AM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ticket splitting is a thing. Anyone who's enraged by Trump and wants to vote for Republicans can simply vote for Hillary or Deez Nuts at the top and garden variety GOP candidates downticket. I think we'll see record-setting numbers of that happening, but the idea that this portends doom for Democrats is kind of silly. You take the wins where you can get them.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:49 AM on August 8, 2016

The problem is that you see the people in the first row. And one of the guys in the front row behind home plate at home games wears a "Make America Great Again" hat.

Every.

Goddamned.

Night.

Remember that dude who used to go to ball games in a rainbow clown wig? Maybe you could show up at the next game and get a seat next to him, pretending to be that guy, but then about two innings into the game you could rip the wig off your head, rip the cap off his head and swap it for the wig, and run like hell.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:51 AM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

An 'I'm With Stupid' shirt would be easier.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:52 AM on August 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

Come visit me in Middlesex County...

The same Middlesex County that has Cambridge and Somerville?

Yes. Come on out to Wilmington, Billerica, Tewksbury, Reading , etc and enjoy the Trumpiness.
posted by briank at 11:55 AM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

One thing that is clearly hurting Trump is that his brand products are made abroad. It's unambiguous, there's nobody who can fail to understand what it means, you can't get around it, you can't square it with his stated policies, and HRC is giving it to him good and hard.

If we wanted to counter that, all he'd have to do is pledge to move all his Trump brand manufacturing back to the US. This would cost him money, but it would close down that attack somewhat - the somewhat being on how fast he did it, how wholehearted he was about it and so on. He could look at it as part of his self-financing strategy; he could even major on that aspect.

It's entirely up to him.

Thus, I propose that we can in some part answer the question 'does he actually want to win?' by whether he does this, as opposed to 'does he want to make a profit out the campaign and be delighted when his exit strategy pays off'.
posted by Devonian at 11:55 AM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

Let me tell you when those guys decide to be mega-dicks and decide to roll coal with their diesels it definitely get me going "Hrmm you know that guy is so alpha he convinced me to vote for Trump!"

oh god oh god oh god

so a friend from grade school/high school is married to her high school sweetheart, she's pretty damn liberal, he unfriended me a year or so ago on Facebook after calling me a racist for saying that white people who deny that our society has a problem with race have their heads so far up their own asses they're wearing themselves as hats. Oh, and also I'm a racist for supporting BLM, because *insert bullshit racist catchphrase here, you know the one*. Over the years he's gone from being a pretty low-key, easygoing average guy to a super macho white American ideal of a man's man -- never not wearing camo, always planning a hunting trip, recently swapped out his old massive coal-rolling diesel truck for an even more massive coal-rolling diesel truck just shy of monster category that is painted white and which he is calling Pride, according to public posts on FB. So.

Anyway, I have no idea how this couple has survived this long with their differences, it's something she's remarked on in previous election years... but she's the high powered executive breadwinner and he just recently went back to work in construction after being a stay at home dad for several years and I know for a fact that she bought him that new truck, among so many other very expensive macho boy toys like new guns and ATVs and on and on and on. And there's just something about that that I find amazing. Did the super macho total dick in this guy rise up as a reaction to all the traditional gender role reversal in his life?
posted by palomar at 11:55 AM on August 8, 2016 [89 favorites]

like, how much toxic masculinity is driving our society right now, and this election? it feels like a lot. a LOT, a lot. am i wrong?
posted by palomar at 11:56 AM on August 8, 2016 [118 favorites]

You know, I know a lot of people are kind of cheering about the fracturing of the GOP,

I would love to see the disappearance of an entirely corrupt party whose primary focus for a half century has been to prop up millionaires and have done so by exploiting wedge issues and gullible single-issue voters and piggybacking on the fears dredged up by hate groups, yes.

I would not mind if it were replaced by an actual party based on economic conservatism and small government. I don't agree with it, but that's an opposition I can respect.
posted by maxsparber at 11:57 AM on August 8, 2016 [61 favorites]

Is this the right place to post this? Twitter suspends Twitter account of Melania Trump speechwriter Meredith McIver, who probably isn't a real person.
posted by Clustercuss at 11:59 AM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Palomar- sounds like he's overcompensating (well duh) and she's falling into the trap of having to protect his fragile ego.

Continuing to give men's egos a series of crutches isn't doing them any favors. Sometimes you just gotta let go of your manbaby and see if they can survive on their own.
posted by vuron at 11:59 AM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Clustercuss: It was in the last thread and got squashed pretty fast.
posted by dfan at 12:00 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

like, how much toxic masculinity is driving our society right now, and this election? it feels like a lot. a LOT, a lot. am i wrong?

You are not wrong at all. Most of the young Trump supporters in my life are Men's Rights types with a few "kill 'em all" bloodthirsty military types thrown in.

I don't know if there's actually MORE than there used to be or if it's like the uptick in police violence against minorities where it was always there but now we can see more of it.
posted by charred husk at 12:00 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

If we wanted to counter that, all he'd have to do is pledge to move all his Trump brand manufacturing back to the US.

Put his money where his mouth is.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:02 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Come visit me in Middlesex County and I will show you a TON of Trump signs. I live in Scott Brown Country (even though he doesn't/didn't live here). One Trumper even verbally accosted my wife and daughter at the gas pumps of our town's Cumberland Farms because we had the temerity to have a Bernie bumper sticker.

I've seen Trump signs in Littleton (there's an office plastered in them right where 2A meets 119) and also Tyngsborough but in Acton I see old Bernie signs and Westford/Chelmsford I don't see much if any Trumpism.
posted by Talez at 12:02 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

re: Trump signs - I was driving down the I-5 in WA from the border to Mt. Vernon last week and I was flabbergasted with the number of Trump signs that poked me in the eyeball.

Not a single Hillary sign, though.
posted by porpoise at 12:02 PM on August 8, 2016

Relinked from J.K Seazer - Snopes: Meredith McIver exists.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:03 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Did the super macho total dick in this guy rise up as a reaction to all the traditional gender role reversal in his life?

Short answer: probably something like that.

In a study done earlier this year in New Jersey, priming male respondents to think about threats to traditional gender roles corresponded to a substantial reduction in support for Clinton:

Among men who did not receive the gender question, Clinton bests Trump by 16 points—49 percent to 33 percent. Among men who were asked the gender question, Trump has more support than Clinton by a margin of 50 points to 42 points. All told, reminding men about gender issues, leads to a 24-point swing in the match up, from a 16-point advantage for Clinton to an eight-point deficit.

posted by dersins at 12:04 PM on August 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

like, how much toxic masculinity is driving our society right now, and this election? it feels like a lot. a LOT, a lot. am i wrong?

I've pretty much reached the point where every cultural and societal ill/problem seems like it has at least part of its roots in toxic masculinity, but that may be my ~misandry~ talking.

Logically, I know not every problem comes down to toxic masculinity, but the spate of shootings, police violence against minorities, terrorist attacks, Trump's everything, online harassment trends, etc. have all combined to make it seem like all our problems come down to the awful ubiquity of toxic masculinity. And for those problems that aren't all on toxic masculinity, it sure seems like there's a high percentage of comorbidity with it, i.e. racism and toxic masculinity, unchecked capitalism and toxic masculinity, etc.
posted by yasaman at 12:04 PM on August 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

re: Trump signs - I was driving down the I-5 in WA from the border to Mt. Vernon last week and I was flabbergasted with the number of Trump signs that poked me in the eyeball.

You should go ask them what they think about Democrats and water rights. They think Trump and the Rs will let them drain whatever the hell river or aquifer they want. What happens after that? I don't know, socializing the losses of farms going down the shitter?
posted by Talez at 12:04 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Put his money where his mouth is.
I don't think he has enough money to accomplish that.
posted by Floydd at 12:05 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Put his money where his mouth is.

You don't want to get money dirty like that.
posted by maxsparber at 12:05 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Relinked from J.K Seazer - Snopes: Meredith McIver exists.

This seems more like proof that the current iteration of Meredith McIver is based on a real person, but that's as far as it really goes.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:08 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

And if you think I'm being hyperbolic, Trump vows to ‘open up the water’ in drought-stricken California.

Speaking at a rally in Fresno, Calif., Trump accused state officials of denying water to Central Valley farmers so they can send it out to sea “to protect a certain kind of three-inch fish.”

In Trump land, if the deltas aren't bone dry and the mud cracking we've fucked our farmers.
posted by Talez at 12:09 PM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

If you think this Presidential Election is a clusterfuck, and you wonder if we'll make it through, I suggest you read up on the Election of 1824. This year is a walk in the park compared to that one! And then things "settled down" when Andrew Jackson got elected twice. Yeesh! As bad as Trump is, he doesn't have the competency of Jackson (just all the racism).

The GOP is not going to dissolve. If the NeverTrumpers had won at the convention, there's a decent chance it might've. If the Evangelical wing had split from the Trump/white/male wing (I know, they're largely the same wing, right?), it might've. But the Bush elites don't have the numbers in the party anymore. They started outsourcing their votes to angry white men in 1964 and never looked back. They made a losing demographic bargain. The GOP may try to reorient itself. But it's going to have a hard time shaking off the base's anti-gay, anti-immigrant, racist tendencies. Those things have no ideological link to low-tax, small government, but they've been the "secret sauce" for more than a generation now.
posted by rikschell at 12:10 PM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

stop saying hamilton lines

*fidgets*
*starts sweating*
*pulls on necktie*
*straightens in chair*
*jiggles leg*
*clears throat*

Hamilton lines.
posted by duffell at 12:10 PM on August 8, 2016 [31 favorites]

> He has reported that he has seen a lot of crosses on the side of the interstate

These are memorials at the site of fatal car accidents.
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 12:14 PM on August 8, 2016 [44 favorites]

Anecdata (dada?) from Gersh Lutwin at the New York Daily News:

• “Inside the mind of a Trump voter: Part I, where nothing but the Middle East matters”, August 1, 2016.
• “Inside the mind of a Trump voter, Part II: My dad continues to be completely irrational about Hillary Clinton”, August 8, 2016.

posted by Going To Maine at 12:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Interesting logo Evan McMullan has. It'll look great with a cape and a pair of tights. And the prominent red star made me lol.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:16 PM on August 8, 2016

Is this the right place to post this? Twitter suspends Twitter account of Melania Trump speechwriter Meredith McIver, who probably isn't a real person.

Snopes has dubbed this allegation (that Meredith McIver isn’t real) to be false.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:17 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Anecdata (dada?) from Gersh Lutwin at the New York Daily News:

I've only just started reading but already it's like they're on two different worlds.
posted by Talez at 12:18 PM on August 8, 2016

I kind of want to go back to the Calvin peeing on stuff days

Now I want a Trump sticker. And a Calvin peeing sticker.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:21 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

So, Carly Fiorina might have a new running mate?
posted by peeedro at 12:21 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

like, how much toxic masculinity is driving our society right now, and this election? it feels like a lot. a LOT, a lot. am i wrong?

A friend of mine coined the phrase "Scaredy White Wang" to refer to the reactions she typically got existing in the world as a black woman growing up and going to college in the -tucky part of Pennsyltucky. It's the frothy mix of toxic masculinity and white supremacy even evident in supposedly liberal white college professors who just couldn't quiiiite accept that she might know more about the black experience than they did. This election is the ultimate culmination of Scaredy White Wang. It's like Scaredy White Wang got some water thrown on it and is now growing and reproducing like tumors all over the body politic. The ballot should just have a box to tick that says Scaredy White Wang and that'd pretty much cover it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:22 PM on August 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

Speaking of toxic masculinity, this is a heartening read.
posted by chaoticgood at 12:24 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Snopes has dubbed this allegation (that Meredith McIver isn’t real) to be false.

So I generally find the Snopes.com sleuthery skills to be up there with other fact-checking operations I really respect, like that of the New Yorker. But weirdly enough, I find their evidence for the existence of Meredith McIver really thin attestation.

They're basically citing two pieces of evidence: a voter registration, and an article in the New York Times about a Trump-branded book she ostensibly ghost-wrote. All the registration proves is that there is a Meredith McIver registered to vote — and after all, that's not such a terribly improbable name — while the Times cite ultimately folds back to the Trump Organization itself.

I really, really dislike conspiracy theories, but I'm sorry, that does not strike me as a huge amount of evidence for the existence of a grown-ass woman in the New York City of 2016.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [40 favorites]

It will be sad when the multicultural future decides to build worldships and then leave the Earth to the white guys to fight over like tribal warlords. Yes it could probably work well for a post-collapse sci-fi story or game but it just seems sad that we can't seem to accept that other people want their fair share as well.

posted by vuron at 2:37 PM on August 8 [+] [!]

It does/did. Peter F. Hamilton's six-volume "The Night's Dawn Trilogy" has this basic concept as the underpinning of planetary colonization.
posted by Thistledown at 12:27 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

got some water thrown on it and is now growing

I didn't think that was how that worked.
posted by tclark at 12:27 PM on August 8, 2016

2016 - #NEVERTRUMP
2020 - #WHATEVERTRUMP ( Democrats forget to nominate a candidate)
2024 - #FOREVERTRUMP (22nd amendment repealed)
posted by blue_beetle at 12:30 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

> He has reported that he has seen a lot of crosses on the side of the interstate

These are memorials at the site of fatal car accidents.

Even if you don't count those, there are a lot of crosses on the side of interstates in the South. Don't think they aren't as much warning as declaration of allegiance, either.
posted by Etrigan at 12:32 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

They're basically citing two pieces of evidence: a voter registration, and an article in the New York Times about a Trump-branded book she ostensibly ghost-wrote.

They also cite this Guardian article, in which a reporter sees Meredith.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:33 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

that does not strike me as a huge amount of evidence for the existence of a grown-ass woman in the New York City of 2016.

Especially one who is supposedly a professional writer and would theoretically have her byline all over the place.
posted by Clustercuss at 12:34 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

It seems entirely probable to me that Trump would find any current or former employee who signed an NDA fair game to use as a sockpuppet, scapegoat, unofficial spokesperson, pen name, etc
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:34 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

2020 - #WHATEVERTRUMP ( Democrats forget to nominate a candidate)
2024 - #FOREVERTRUMP (22nd amendment repealed)

It's okay. WHATEVERTRUMP is actually the name of John Cho's movie from 2020 and FOREVERTRUMP is a Broadway Musical from 2024 starring Nathan Lane.
posted by charred husk at 12:35 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've seen a few anti-Hillary bumper stickers that have the HILLARY in big letters and the anti- stuff in small letters. I wonder how effective those are (to the extent bumper stickers are effective at all) considering that unless you're right behind them at a stop light it looks like they're supporting her.
posted by ckape at 12:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

It seems entirely probable to me that Trump would find any current or former employee who signed an NDA fair game to use as a sockpuppet, scapegoat, unofficial spokesperson, pen name, etc

This seems likely true (though presumably Meredith McIver would be entirely within her rights to take action if she were being impersonated without consent). However, answering that question is kind of beyond Snopes’ purview on this one. The NYT and Guardian are both good at fact-checking, and they verified McIver’s existence. There’s plenty of room for weirdness beyond that.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:38 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

If we wanted to counter that, all he'd have to do is pledge to move all his Trump brand manufacturing back to the US.

The latest Hillary ad - the one that shows him on David Letterman - doesn't really indicate he'll do that, though. When called on "where are these shirts made?" and when it is revealed they were made in Bangladesh, Trump says something like, "...well, okay, but we're giving people in Bangladesh jobs, that's good, right?" At least he has the grace to look slightly embarrassed, but probably that's only because he's on camera.

As for Snopes and Meredith - that may not be strong evidence of Meredith's existence, but it's VERY strong evidence that Snopes itself is impartial (the allegation that Snopes has a liberal bias is something I've recently come across on the Social Media Frontier).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

The allegation that all not-explicitly-conservative media has a liberal bias is basically the media literacy version of 'when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.'
posted by box at 12:44 PM on August 8, 2016 [52 favorites]

Republicans have for years been saying unemployment is understated in the official report because it doesn't count people who have stopped looking for work.

For values of "years" equal to "since the inauguration of Barack Obama," since Republicans by and large touted any positive employment report under Miserable Failure George W. Bush even when job creation failed to match population growth.
posted by Gelatin at 12:45 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

the allegation that Snopes has a liberal bias is something I've recently come across on the Social Media Frontier

There you go again, reality, with your confirmed liberal bias.
posted by dis_integration at 12:47 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

like, how much toxic masculinity is driving our society right now, and this election? it feels like a lot. a LOT, a lot. am i wrong?

idk if it's because the media is more open to reporting on it or not but i have definitely noticed what seems to be an alarming increase in violence/sexual assault against women in nyc and in the NE region in general over the last 3-4 months
posted by poffin boffin at 12:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

(the allegation that Snopes has a liberal bias is something I've recently come across on the Social Media Frontier)

This is going to sound more glib than I mean it to be, but Republicans seriously hate facts and research. Conservatives want to believe whatever they initially feel is true about something when they first become aware of it, and they do not like it when people try to change their minds.
posted by IAmUnaware at 12:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

TRUMP: Meredith! Get in here. The media, they're so biased against me, they don't think you're real. You need to get out there and prove you're real, Meredith.

MEREDITH: Oh gee Mr. Trump

[Meredith stays up all night studying ontological treatises]
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:52 PM on August 8, 2016 [65 favorites]

Gersh Kuntzman's dad (not his real name) might as well be my dad (also not his real name). They have no evidence, they just know Hillary can't be trusted. He cites Fox News/Alex Jones talking points but again, no evidence. So what if every Mayor of Townsville went on speaking tours after their term in office and made millions? If Harvard or Vanderbilt or the Daughters of Bilitis was going to pay me a million bucks to talk about how I feel about child welfare in Arkansas, I'm on the next freaking plane.

It's pretty easy to chalk up a cool 10 million when each of you get a quarter of that every speaking engagement and your calendar's full. To assign it some dastardly agenda is ridiculous. Just because a poor Jewish kid from Brooklyn (what is it with them?) can't imagine how someone could make money without a product to sell doesn't mean it doesn't exist, Zayde!

I know I'm irrationally angry about this, but I'm gearing up to talk to my family and I'm frustrated. I know they're going to pull all of these talking points (her health, the emails, the guns, Benghaaaaaazi) and I'm just trying to figure out the fastest way from conspiracy on tap to a can of shut the fuck up and vote for the woman.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:53 PM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

Anecdata (dada?) from Gersh Lutwin at the New York Daily News:
“Inside the mind of a Trump voter: Part I, where nothing but the Middle East matters”, August 1, 2016.
“Inside the mind of a Trump voter, Part II: My dad continues to be completely irrational about Hillary Clinton”, August 8, 2016.

These aren't particularly good except for being examples of how not to discuss Trump with a Trump voter. Lutwin regularly - and his father notes this - veers away from the ostensible subject matter of the current debate (the Middle East, Hillary's wealth) by complaining about miscellaneous Trump assholery.

Like, this exchange for example:

Dad: I can’t prove that she did anything wrong to get it, but I want to ask your readers this one question: Do you think someone can earn $110 million wealth in 16 years legally? I’m asking your readers!

Gersh: She traded on her good name to make money. I’ll stipulate that.

Dad: Ask your readers: How could they amass that kind of wealth legally? I want your readers to think about that.

This exchange comes after they agree that the Clintons each get a quarter of a million dollars to make a speech.

The answer is "$110 million divided by two hundred and fifty thousand is four hundred and forty. Four hundred and forty speeches. That's over 16 years, because when they left office they were broke. So four hundred and forty, divided by sixteen. That's about twenty-eight speeches a year, that's two or three per month. It's big money, sure, but most of it was Bill - he's worth $80 million of that $110 million they're worth together - and getting a former President to speak is expensive because there's only four of them around. Hell, even Jimmy Carter costs you a hundred grand a pop. Dick Cheney goes for a hundred fifty. You might not like that the Clintons make big money giving speeches, but they're not hiding the fact that they do."

You can't out-evade a Trump voter. Don't even try.
posted by mightygodking at 12:55 PM on August 8, 2016 [49 favorites]

BTW, anybody curious about Texas politics - or who still misses Moly Ivins - should keep up with Juanita Jean at "The World's Most Dangerous Beauty Salon, Inc"
posted by Alter Cocker at 12:57 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

(the allegation that Snopes has a liberal bias is something I've recently come across on the Social Media Frontier)

This is going to sound more glib than I mean it to be, but Republicans seriously hate facts and research. Conservatives want to believe whatever they initially feel is true about something when they first become aware of it, and they do not like it when people try to change their minds.

This is going to be glib too, but given the bit of backlash here against Snopes I’d assume that quite a few liberals don’t inherently like facts and research from authority figures either - they just like getting the benefit of said research generally supporting their framing and biases…
posted by Going To Maine at 1:00 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Guysguysguys it's s OK, I'm living proof Meredith exists.

The other night around 3am I was driving through the New Jersey Pine Barrens, and I saw a bright light maneuvering in ways no terrestrial aircraft could. Then my engine died and I saw Meredith hovering above the road only 40 feet away. When I asked her why she was registered Democratic, she took off at impossible speed, using no visible means of propulsion .

I reported the incident, but the Air Force said it was just Venus. But I know what I saw, I am a trained observer.
posted by happyroach at 1:02 PM on August 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

> He has reported that he has seen a lot of crosses on the side of the interstate

One of my favorites is this one, which seems to be installed just to watch over a huge "Adult Store" in Tennessee.
posted by achrise at 1:02 PM on August 8, 2016

They also cite this Guardian article, in which a reporter sees Meredith.

Ah, but did they see her long form birth certificate?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:05 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Meredith is not a sockpuppet.

MEREDITH IS THE PUPPET MASTER!!!
posted by Windopaene at 1:08 PM on August 8, 2016

Andrew Kaczynski: Pence: Christians, Jews Would Be Included In Trump’s Territorial Terrorism Ban

“We should temporarily suspend immigration from countries that have been compromised by terrorism, which I think is altogether fitting and appropriate,” Pence said. “When you look at the Syrian refugee program — we had another incident in Belgium over the weekend — the simple fact is that both our Homeland Security and F.B.I. have said there are countries like Syria where people are coming in through routine means, the refugees program and otherwise and we can simply not know who they are for sure. So suspending that program from those countries, I think is in the best interest of the security of our people.”

Pence was asked if this meant the program would include Jewish and Christians citizens of those countries and he reiterated again the policy was based on countries where terrorism existed.

Yeah, those countries with dozens of shootings every day, radicalized religious terrorists who hate entire races and religions, and the corrupt politicians who implicitly and explicitly encourage them. Man, what a bunch of shit-holes!
posted by zombieflanders at 1:08 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

So how about that Evan McMullin guy, huh.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:09 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who?
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:11 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Is he still in it?
posted by mazola at 1:11 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who?
posted by Cookiebastard at 1:12 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Every time I see the name Evan and the bald head, my mind goes straight to Evan Handler. And then I start thinking about Charlie Runkle running a campaign against Trump, and it's all downhill from there.
posted by McCoy Pauley at 1:12 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel like if Evan was a Steve we wouldn't be able to stop talking about him.

This election could always use another Steve or two, no doubt.
posted by Tevin at 1:14 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pence: Christians, Jews Would Be Included In Trump’s Territorial Terrorism Ban

"You're right, religious intolerance is bad. Guess we'll just pivot back to racism."
posted by Etrigan at 1:14 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I enjoy the little "meh" face created by the unnecessary horizontal line in McMullin's logo. It's like the logo is self-aware.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:16 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

I feel like if Evan was a Steve we wouldn't be able to stop talking about him.

well yeah, if there was a Steve running against the Trump campaign we'd have The War of Six Steves and that'd be awesome
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

On the other hand, Mondale took an 18-point, 500+ EV thrashing in '88, and it wasn't enough to destroy the Democratic party, so...

Not end, no, but between that and Newt Gingrich teaching Republicans to demonize their opponents every time they open their mouths, Democrats went into a 20-plus-year defensive crouch that they're only recently beginning, hopefully, to emerge from.
posted by Gelatin at 1:18 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

It Sure Sounds Like Donald Trump Just Said ‘Titties’ on Live Television
posted by kirkaracha at 1:19 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Does that mean Trump will ban the Irish?

Mind you, you get some rum coves from Ireland..
posted by Devonian at 1:20 PM on August 8, 2016

They also cite this Guardian article, in which a reporter sees Meredith.

Yes, on reading that carefully, I tend to agree. If Meredith is a shell identity of some sort, that is Deep Game...and if there's anything we know about Team Trump it's that even three-dimensional chess is well beyond them. I withdraw my objection.

I am still in something close to awe that you can live a complete existence and leave so little trace upon the world, apparently without even trying to.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:22 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Look at his face during the applause break. He's debating whether to correct himself.
posted by roll truck roll at 1:24 PM on August 8, 2016

stop saying hamilton lines

That would be enough?
posted by dw at 1:31 PM on August 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

Tim kaine campaigning in Austin. Yes. In Texas.

Damn I was hoping it was going to be later in the week, when I'll be in Austin with nothing to do. I would totally go see Tim Kaine.
posted by threeturtles at 1:31 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

That would be enough?

Hamilton > Meredith >>>>>>> Steve
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:32 PM on August 8, 2016

seriously though by the time November rolls around there won't be any good lines left and we'll be stuck quoting stage directions for post titles
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:33 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

The only Trump hat I've seen in the wild was on the man half of a...

VERY disappointed the next word wasn't "centaur."
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [35 favorites]

stop saying hamilton lines

We are the

M E

T A

F I L

T

E R: We are

meant to be

A community weblog running independently
posted by jokeefe at 1:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [28 favorites]

How to discuss Trump with a Trump voter:

Donald Trump claims to be pro-business, but he has declared bankruptcy several times, and refuses to release his tax returns. How can we trust a candidate that doesn't even have two strips of latinum to rub together?

Donald Trump: He Doesn't Have the Lobes for This
Paid for by the Ferenginar Freedom Council


Donald Trump says he's the family values candidate, but he allows his females to acquire profit and wear clothing!

Donald Trump: Wrong on Females, Wrong for Ferenginar
Paid for by the Ferenginar Freedom Council


Donald Trump wants you to think he believes in the Blessed Exchequer, but he couldn't even remember rule #18 during a debate!

Donald Trump: Has He Even Read the Rules of Acquisition?
Paid for by the Ferenginar Freedom Council


Trump is a perfectly good Ferengi name, and yet Donald Trump insists on putting a hu-man name in front of it. So, which is it- Donald or Trump?

Donald Trump: You Can't Sign a Contract With a Man With Two Names
Paid for by the Ferenginar Freedom Council


Donald Trump: Freakishly Small Lobes
Paid for by the Ferenginar Freedom Council
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [87 favorites]

That would be enough?

DAYENU
posted by poffin boffin at 1:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

seriously though by the time November rolls around there won't be any good lines left and we'll be stuck quoting stage directions for post titles

EXEUNT
November 9, 2016 12:37 AM [Subscribe]
posted by dersins at 1:38 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Hamilton > Meredith >>>>>>> Steve

the world was wide enough for Meredith and Steve
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:38 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

we'll be stuck quoting stage directions for post titles

Election 2016 Megathread: Cross Left!
posted by donatella at 1:38 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

seriously though by the time November rolls around there won't be any good lines left and we'll be stuck quoting stage directions for post titles

I'm saving "Who Lives Who Dies Who Tells Your Story" for Election Day myself.
posted by dw at 1:39 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I am still in something close to awe that you can live a complete existence and leave so little trace upon the world, apparently without even trying to.

It’s not that you leave little trace without trying - it’s that leaving a trace requires effort. If you’ve got a stable position, going to the work of making yourself visible on the web isn’t particularly important.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:39 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

We'll be putting the rotating stage into play pretty soon, tho.
posted by dw at 1:40 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Election Eve: I know that we can win. I know that greatness lies in you
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:41 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Let's say 15% - and I'm trying to be conservative - ultimately feel they need to find a new party because the GOP has decided to embrace being the Party of Trump.

I think there are a couple of different ways this can go down though. Maybe a bunch of the reasonable conservatives, like yourself Corb, will form a new party and a bunch of the more moderate Democrats leave to join that.

Or maybe a bunch of the reasonable types join the dems and then that party splits off into two new ones. I would love to live in a world where people like Corb are holding on the right edge of the overton window and if Hillary ran in 2024, she might run as whatever the conservative party is in the future.

It think it will take a couple of presidential election cycles to emerge, whatever happens but I think that the downfall of the Republican party would be a good thing and represents an opportunity to drop the dead weight and only include mature, reasonable, adults going forward. Unless our voting system undergoes fundamental changes that would allow for more than two parties, the nature of our voting system will ensure that two, roughly equally powerful parties, will emerge. If the Republicans go away, something else will fill that void, it's just a question of what that new party will look like. A massive landslide victory for Dems in November will make me feel a lot better about what those parties will look like and I hope that most mefites have a really hard time deciding between the two.
posted by VTX at 1:42 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

So Meredith is a weird JT Leroy thing? I'm confused.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:43 PM on August 8, 2016

So like does he create a new horcrux every time he files for bankruptcy?

At this point, he could strut onto the stage at every rally with a gigantic snake named Nagini wrapped around his shoulders and declare himself The Dark Lord TrumpdeMort -- and that would still be less disturbing than more than half the shit that he's said already.
posted by zarq at 1:47 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

On a more serious note, 50 G.O.P. Officials Warn Donald Trump Would Put Nation’s Security ‘at Risk’
posted by jokeefe at 1:49 PM on August 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

Honestly if the endgame is just for all the Christofascists and white supremacists to be marginalized from mainstream political discourse for-fucking-ever, I will be delighted. However that happens, whatever the names of the parties are that come out the other end of this sausage grinder, I don't really care. Just please can we prove once and for all that those people are a small and ever-dwindling minority of backwards-ass hatemongers and get back to arguing about supply-side economics like a civilized country again?
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

Who?

Maybe we know him better as "Star Lord?"
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now I've made you hear that "Who?" in Djimon Hounsou's voice. HA! And THAT in Edna Krabappel's voice!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:52 PM on August 8, 2016

we'll be stuck quoting stage directions for post titles

Exit Trump, pursued by a bear.
posted by happyroach at 1:57 PM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Those poor Republicans. They spend 25 years building up this huge propaganda machine trying to convince Americans that Hillary Clinton is literally Beelzebub. And now the long-prophesied day of doom has finally arrived: she's actually going to run for president. She's unpopular. They've got all their plans ready to defeat her.

And then Trump runs out on stage yelling, "Leerooooooooooy Jenkins!"

GOP TPK.
posted by straight at 1:57 PM on August 8, 2016 [85 favorites]

It Sure Sounds Like Donald Trump Just Said ‘Titties’ on Live Television

Just when I think I'm out, you pull me back in
posted by penduluum at 1:58 PM on August 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

This is why Mithraism never really took off, it's hard to make a blood-gunked grated pit iconic.

no, it's because they got their bbq sauce from memphis instead of kansas city ...
posted by pyramid termite at 1:58 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

On a more serious note, 50 G.O.P. Officials Warn Donald Trump Would Put Nation’s Security ‘at Risk’


I'm picturing this like Thirty Helens Agree.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:58 PM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Trump's concession speech: "Least I ain't chicken."
posted by VTX at 2:06 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's a topsy-turvy world. First there are Deep Space Nine jokes in my election thread - may the Prophets save us from Trump, who has the same braggadocio as Dukat.

And then, for just a little while this afternoon, the Now-Cast had South Carolina blue. SOUTH CAROLINA.

Also, I have three brothers named Steve. None of them are among Trump's economic advisors, but maybe I'll suggest they should apply.
posted by Chanther at 2:07 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

I wonder if we're due for a spell of one-party democracy, like Japan or Korea (or Singapore?).
posted by grobstein at 2:13 PM on August 8, 2016

I saw that SC-blue thing, too. I was all, like, HELLS no. But then I remember that the now-cast is all about, as Harry Enten says, "setting your hair on fire."

To all those predicting the end of the GOP as the party of white male hate, where do you think those voters are going to go? They were the single largest bloc in the GOP primary, and they are likely to be the same in four more years. They're not going to suddenly vote for a soft-on-immigration gay-marriage-loving candidate just to win. They're going to vote for Ted Cruz.
posted by rikschell at 2:14 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

> And then Trump runs out on stage yelling, "Leerooooooooooy Jenkins!"

Well, at least he's got chicken...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:17 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

They were the single largest bloc in the GOP primary, and they are likely to be the same in four more years. They're not going to suddenly vote for a soft-on-immigration gay-marriage-loving candidate just to win. They're going to vote for Ted Cruz.

Yes, but they will be fewer and fewer relative to everyone else for every election cycle. They are fighting back because they know they are loosing and it hurts.
posted by mumimor at 2:17 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

To all those predicting the end of the GOP as the party of white male hate, where do you think those voters are going to go?

The grave, some of them. Part of social progress is old bigots dying off.
Of natural causes, of course!
posted by kirkaracha at 2:22 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Curt Schilling says he'll run for president in 8 years, or 4 if Hillary is elected. I bet he'll take all of the public funding he can get.
posted by mollweide at 2:23 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

...because the last windbag bankruptcy abuser from the NE worked out so well for the Republicans.
posted by Fezboy! at 2:25 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Curt Schilling says he'll run for president in 8 years, or 4 if Hillary is elected.

MAKE AMALUR GREAT AGAIN
posted by murphy slaw at 2:29 PM on August 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

The grave, some of them.

Some, sure, but that won't solve the problem. The MRA and alt-right types (who have been cozying up to each other for a while now) are generally younger. The percentage is smaller, which is good, but there's still plenty of racism and sexism to be found in the younger generations. And views aren't static --- those people could "come around", or events could swell their numbers in the future.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:29 PM on August 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

can we stop calling them the alt-right and start calling them fascists yet
posted by murphy slaw at 2:30 PM on August 8, 2016 [50 favorites]

Curt Schilling says he'll run for president in 8 years, or 4 if Hillary is elected.

Waving the Bloody Sock!
posted by kirkaracha at 2:31 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm glad everyone is pretty calm in this thread and has moved on to Hamilton quotes because when I saw someone else had declared his candidacy I got wall-eyed with fear because WHAT IF THIS IS OUR ROB FORD SCENARIO YOU GUYS
posted by gusandrews at 2:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I personally guarantee you will not hear the name "Evan McMullin" come out of any newscaster's mouth on November 8.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:38 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Evan McMullin is in Hamilton?
posted by mazola at 2:40 PM on August 8, 2016

FiveThirtyEight's NowCast shows Hillary at 95.2% to Trump's 4.8%.

Their polls-only forecast has her at 86.3% odds, and their quite–conservative polls–plus forecast gives her 78.3%. That includes all possible fluctuations between now and November, presumably, such as "Hillary Clinton kills a man," "Bill Clinton brings that man back to life, just to kill him all over again," and "Tim Kaine's harmonica–playing revealed to be tape–synced."
posted by rorgy at 2:41 PM on August 8, 2016 [39 favorites]

Well, I can live with coverage like this, even as Trump hits (yet another) reset on his campaign:

NYT: Mr. Trump called for ending what Republicans label the “death tax.” He did not mention that the estate tax currently exempts the first $5.45 million for an individual and $10.9 million for a married couple — meaning that only the very wealthy pay even a dime. If Mr. Trump’s net worth is as large as he has says, his heirs would have a great deal to gain from eliminating the estate tax; the typical displaced steelworker or coal miner, or even a relatively prosperous retiree, would have nothing to gain.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:44 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

No Longer a Bounce:

Historically, once the tumult of the conventions has settled, the polls tend to be fairly stable. There's sometimes a closing toward the end. Gore caught up with Bush at the end of the 2000 race. But again, people seem to make basic decisions during the conventions and they're usually hard to dislodge. That seems especially the case when the margin is substantial.

I think Trump has sustained permanent damage that he won't be able to recover from. I'm not saying the race can't tighten up, but he's at an all-time low on PollTracker and his ceiling's around 44%. Third-party candidates might bring Clinton's numbers down a bit, but not enough to make any practical difference.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:45 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Can Curt Schilling even run?
posted by srboisvert at 2:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Nah, his knees are shot.
posted by dersins at 2:47 PM on August 8, 2016 [43 favorites]

Can Curt Schilling even run?

What would disqualify him?
posted by waitingtoderail at 2:48 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

then, for just a little while this afternoon, the Now-Cast had South Carolina blue. SOUTH CAROLINA.

SC's voted Dem only twice in the last 55 years (1960 & 1976), so I'm just saying, I think it will be a cold day in a hot Carolina summer when that happens again. (I think solid Democratic voters make up well less than half of the state's population. 40+% or something as I recall. The state party isn't even running a serious challenger to Tim Scott this year.)
posted by octobersurprise at 2:49 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Evan McMullin is in Hamilton?

Everybody's in Hamilton. We're all in Hamilton now. You've been in the Metafilter Cast of Hamilton for months (you're understudying Thomas Paine; even though he isn't a character in Hamilton, he is a character in Hamilton, because everybody is a character in Hamilton). All human discourse is conducted through the medium of Hamilton. All recipes and furniture assembly instructions have been replaced by pictorial representations of the major songs of Hamilton (which is to say, all the songs of Hamilton). I'm really looking forward to the release of the video game No Man's Sky, which is a procedural journey of exploration through a universe of quintillions of planets, each of which has their own cast and libretto of Hamilton. The DNA base codes of adenine, thymine, guanine and cytosine have been replaced by the characters of the three Schuyler sisters and very small flintlock pistol.
posted by penduluum at 2:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [52 favorites]

"South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum." -- James Petigru
posted by kirkaracha at 2:52 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yes indeedy, that's our motto.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:53 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

McMullin cannot win by getting 270-plus electoral votes. It's too late, as people have pointed out above.

Hypothetically, if it were a month or two ago, McMullin could have gotten on the ballot in a couple of swing states. In a three-way contest, it doesn't take 50% to finish in first place, you could win that state with as little as 35% or so. (Compare Jesse Ventura's win in Minnesota in 1998.) It would have been unlikely that McMullin would have won outright, but if he would have kept Clinton to below 270, that would have thrown the election to the House of Representatives......where McMullin is a known GOP advisor.....

But that's all alternate history now. As it stands, McMullin has something like 36 hours to collect 5000 signatures if he wants to be on the ballot in Ohio. Likewise Colorado. The Florida, North Carolina, Nevada, and other swing state deadlines are long past.

If his goal really is only to stop Trump, he could get on the ballot in Arizona still, also a few redder states like Kentucky, Mississippi, Idaho. Any success that he has there would solidify a Clinton win, it seems like, either by winning the state outright, or by pulling votes away from Trump.

(Or, the whole thing is hot air, and we'll all forget about it later this week.)
posted by gimonca at 2:54 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know what would be weird? If the nowcast kept going so far that eventually it turned over to zero. Maybe that's the Trump plan!
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:54 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

The McMullin thing is stupid and going nowhere. I may get more votes than he will and I'm only up to 3.
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Another thing to consider around third party campaigns for President: they're tough just in general. Ross Perot got quite a few votes in 1992, something like 18% of the total? As a reward, he came away with zero electoral votes. George Wallace was the last 3rd party person to get any electoral votes, in 1968, he was basically regional. Before that....off the top of my head, LaFollette won his home state of Wisconsin in the 1920s?
posted by gimonca at 2:59 PM on August 8, 2016

Yeah the titties thing is all well and good but my favorite slip up is Trump calling Clinton short-circulated. Labeling her short-circuited was bad enough but now he is calling her circulation into question. Or maybe he is calling her magazine subscriptions into question-- it is really hard to tell with Trump.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:59 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

The McMullin thing is stupid and going nowhere. I may get more votes than he will and I'm only up to 3.

Four!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:59 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Another on-air talent 'disappeared' at Fox News after reporting harassment from Roger Ailes:
Fox News host Andrea Tantaros says she also was a target of ex-network boss Roger Ailes’ alleged sexual harassment and eventually was pulled off the air after rebuffing his advances, according to a New York Magazine report out Monday.
posted by PenDevil at 3:00 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

starting to wonder if the entire trump campaign is just a smokescreen to keep the slow-motion collapse of Fox News off the front page (or at least below the fold)

nah, not really
posted by murphy slaw at 3:02 PM on August 8, 2016

i would wear the hell out of a 'make byzantium great again' hat

preferably blue with green letters, of course
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:04 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

gimonca -- Harry Byrd got 15 votes in 1960 from faithless electors. And Strom Thurmond got 39 in 1948 because racists gonna racist.
posted by nathan_teske at 3:05 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Only plebs wear the green.
posted by Justinian at 3:07 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Although the U.S. Constitution is typically silent on the details of how the states conduct elections, for unclear reasons the Founders specified that vote counts must be stored in unsigned variables — presumably, this had something to do with the high cost of memory in the computers available at the time. As a result of this, though, if a candidate can somehow get their vote total so low that it's actually too small to store, this will cause the recorded value to loop back around, making it seem as if that candidate has received well over two billion votes.

The strategy of attempting to win by producing an underflow condition hasn't been used successfully since Polk in 1844, which is why the sporadic attempts to correct this bug in the Constitution through an amendment never really go anywhere. FWIW, most other modern democracies have learned from the errors of the drafters of the U.S. constitution, and generally prevent this sort of error by making sure that floating-point arithmetic is never used in vote tabulations.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:07 PM on August 8, 2016 [77 favorites]

Alternately little Bobby Droptables runs for president.
posted by nathan_teske at 3:09 PM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

...starting to wonder if the entire trump campaign is just a smokescreen...

One of the stupider conspiracy theories floating around is that he and the Clintons are friends, and his entire candidacy is a ruse to destroy the GOP.
posted by zarq at 3:09 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Only plebs wear the green.

Given the average life expectancy of the emperors, I'm ok with pleb status
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:10 PM on August 8, 2016

okay, i really want to know - why do republicans push so hard on the goddamn estate tax? it's an issue that affects a tiny % of voters and i can't believe it moves the needle for anyone else even if they call it the "death tax" or "grave robbing" or "necrotaxation" or whatever is the current formulation.

it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that does any good being in a presidential platform at all. if you want to repeal it, you just push it through the legislature.

but the first minute conservatives get the opportunity to write trump's economic policy, there it is at the top of the list in bright red letters. what gives?
posted by murphy slaw at 3:14 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

something something temporarily embarrassed millionaires
posted by entropicamericana at 3:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

Evan McMullin was on ABC news. He called Trump inhuman and Clinton woefully unfit.

Asked specifically about House Speaker Paul Ryan, Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus and former Republican presidential candidate -- and fellow Republican with deep ties in Utah -- Mitt Romney, McMullin said that he has not spoken to any of those individuals about his run.

"I've been wrestling with the decision for a couple of weeks," noting that he spent "time in prayer" before deciding.

Great. Another person who talked to God about his campaign. God sure does take an interest in American politics although I note God also has a wicked sense of humor since those people that God tells to run for President never have a hope in hell: Carson, Huckabee, Scot Walker, Cruz, Rick Perry AND Rick Santorum, and that's just this election season.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

but the first minute conservatives get the opportunity to write trump's economic policy, there it is at the top of the list in bright red letters. what gives?

The rich folks.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

The estate tax thing also sounds good. Most people honestly have no idea that it only begins to apply to $5.45 million dollar estates, $10.9 million for couples, plus all the various avoidance mechanisms. They just hear "death tax" and get angry, despite strikingly low odds they've ever lost a penny because of the tax.
posted by zachlipton at 3:18 PM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

Some pundit noted that Trump succeeded the primaries by "being Trump" but everyone talks about when will he start "talking presidential" and "unifying the party". And he did a bit giving (grudging) support to Ryan. But the point was it was not trump-ish. And the more Trump is less like Trump the weaker he'll become, but if he remains trump-ish the wackiness will also catch up with his message being recognized as, well, wacky.
posted by sammyo at 3:19 PM on August 8, 2016

it's an issue that affects a tiny % of voters

well one possible hypothesis is that a tiny % of voters have a large amount of influence on conservative priorities

crazy talk i know
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:20 PM on August 8, 2016 [34 favorites]

AP Factcheck on today's economic speech.

TRUMP: “The United States also has the highest business tax rate among the major industrialized nations of the world, at 35 percent. It’s almost 40 percent when you add in taxes at the state level.”

THE FACTS: The stated corporate tax rate looks high, but most U.S. businesses don’t pay it. The tax code is full of deductions, credits and loopholes that limit the tax burden for many companies. The effective corporate income tax rate is around 27 percent, roughly in line with global averages, according to government estimates.

Another way to look at it is examining federal corporate taxes as a share of the U.S. economy. Corporate taxes made up just 1.9 percent last year, according to the government. That is well below the historic average of 2.7 percent, but slightly above the Reagan-era levels during the 1980s. In some years, the majority of all large U.S.-controlled corporations reported no federal tax liability, according to the Government Accountability Office.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:23 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

And simply, eliminating the estate tax polls well. 54% support a repeal, 19% disagree, and 26% don't know. Around 1 in 500 estates pay estate tax since the exemption threshold was raised.
posted by zachlipton at 3:23 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump on His Trump U Blog: “Outsourcing Jobs…Not Always a Terrible Thing”:

I understand that outsourcing means that employees lose jobs. Because work is often outsourced to other countries, it means Americans lose jobs. In other cases, nonunion employees get the work. Losing jobs is never a good thing, but we have to look at the bigger picture.

posted by kirkaracha at 3:25 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Hillary Clinton Seeks (or Accepts) an Endorsement from Henry Kissinger, She's Lost My Vote
posted by waitingtoderail at 3:25 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

okay i guess i get it. people like you to say you'll eliminate taxes, even if the specific tax doesn't affect them.

i guess the democrats haven't found sufficient judo to sell it as what it is, a hedge against the establishment of a hereditary aristocracy.
posted by murphy slaw at 3:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Great. Another person who talked to God about his campaign.

A lot of people in this country are religious. A lot of people pray. As had been noted elsewhere, both Kaine and Clinton have spoken about their religion and its role in their lives. The Muslims who are right wing bug bears are themselves (shockingly, I'm sure) religious, and as they become more involved in American politics they will bring those beliefs with them. Religious political figures are as American as apple pie.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

"the Richie Rich tax"
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:27 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

just wondering, is McMullin a Mormon? (not that it will have any effect on his non-existent vote count)
posted by murphy slaw at 3:28 PM on August 8, 2016

Yeah, he's Mormon.
posted by Justinian at 3:30 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Asking in good faith: why would Hillary want Kissinger's endorsement? I understand why she'd want Condi's and other Bush flacks (this would divide the Rs and further emphasize the lack of support Trump has in his family), but how would Kissinger's support help her?
posted by pxe2000 at 3:30 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

i guess the democrats haven't found sufficient judo to sell it as what it is

I'd ask why these heirs aren't out there building and creating their own wealth. Why do they need handouts from any source?
posted by tclark at 3:32 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Asking in good faith: why would Hillary want Kissinger's endorsement?

Gotta catch 'em all!
posted by mazola at 3:32 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

If Hillary Clinton Seeks (or Accepts) an Endorsement from Henry Kissinger, She's Lost My Vote

The caveat below the headline is that he lives in a super blue state so he gets to have his protest vote confident that others will do the work of electing the qualified president for him. I'm completely done with this vote-as-expression-of-conscience horseshit after the primaries. This is a fucken job interview, there's two candidates, pick one.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:33 PM on August 8, 2016 [69 favorites]

> okay, i really want to know - why do republicans push so hard on the goddamn estate tax? it's an issue that affects a tiny % of voters and i can't believe it moves the needle for anyone else even if they call it the "death tax" or "grave robbing" or "necrotaxation" or whatever is the current formulation.

Ooh I know this one.

Despite the pretense that the state is responsive to the demands of the public as expressed through electoral means, in practice "democratic" institutions are for the most part controlled by the big bourgeoisie. This is why elected representatives tend to be more concerned with the wants of the very wealthy than they are with the needs of the electorate at large, even though on paper they're meant to represent the electorate as a whole rather than just the big bourgeoisie.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:33 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Gotta catch 'em all!

i'm assuming "'em" is referring to war criminals

why do the dems make it so hard to vote for them sometimes good lord. like yes i will vote for you HRC because trump is a racist fascist disaster but please PLEASE stop talking to or about henry kissinger other than saying he is a war criminal who should be rotting in jail
posted by burgerrr at 3:36 PM on August 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

Ivanka spoke to the Detroit Free Press today. Ivanka Trump: Critics 'scared' of Donald Trump presidency

I know I personally am frightened by a Trump Presidency because I think he is unstable but go on, Ivanka, you were saying?

she also acknowledged that it is sometimes difficult for her to understand why people don't see her father as the warm and empathetic man she knows well.

Part of the reason, she said, may be that he has been underestimated for far too long.

"They’re scared," Ivanka Trump said of her father's harshest critics. "They never thought that he’d be where he is."

She added that "I think there will be many people who will seek to diminish him." But Ivanka Trump said she has faith in the American's electorate to decide for themselves.

"Everyone has one vote and the American people will make up their own minds," she said. "And they are coming out in droves in support of his fresh perspective, his honesty, his candor, his bold version for the future of this country. And the support has been tremendous."

"His fresh perspective" = No experience
"His honesty" = ??????
"His candor" = Not a PC pussy
"His bold version of the future" = A version of America where only whites are allowed to be immigrants and everyone else is deported, a version of America where Trump is emblazoned on every surface available, a version where NATO, UN, and NAFTA treaties are torn up and our allies must pay us tribute, because apparently we are going to rebuild the country and erect a 20 foot wall along our Southern border while slashing taxes.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:39 PM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Around the corner from my house, there is a truck my wife and I call the Fail Truck because it sports bumper stickers of unsuccessful Republican candidates.

My wife and I saw the ultimate Trump truck this weekend - an older Nissan (I think) pick up truck with about 30-40 Trump bumper stickers plastered on the tailgate. Also a custom license plate that read "4 TRMP". It was spotted in the parking lot of a very upscale-looking apartment complex in Reston, VA. Starting to wish I had taken a picture of it.

Besides that, the only trump signage I've seen is another truck with a Trump bumper sticker (just one) in my office parking lot. Funny thing is that I live in Fairfax County, VA (not exactly Trump territory) but I haven't seen any political signs the handful of times this year I've driven elsewhere in Virginia.
posted by photo guy at 3:40 PM on August 8, 2016

PEC has random drift probability of Clinton winning at 70%, Bayesian at 85%. Both pretty close to where they've been all season. c'mon landslide c'mon landslide no whammy no whammy
posted by en forme de poire at 3:41 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Sorry this is way late, had to catch up:

Pence: Christians, Jews Would Be Included In Trump’s Territorial Terrorism Ban

Oh, good. I guess that means all the Hindi, Taoist, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Shinto, Confucianist, Jains, and Sikh immigrants are a-okay then. /sarcasm
posted by daq at 3:41 PM on August 8, 2016

daq, he means Christian and Jewish refugees would be banned as well.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:44 PM on August 8, 2016

I know I'm irrationally angry about this, but I'm gearing up to talk to my family and I'm frustrated. I know they're going to pull all of these talking points (her health, the emails, the guns, Benghaaaaaazi) and I'm just trying to figure out the fastest way from conspiracy on tap to a can of shut the fuck up and vote for the woman.

I hate to say it, but there is no 'short-cut' to argue against this. It really does require deprogramming and counter-programming to get people to understand that their worldview has been skewed so far out of sync with reality.

The good news is that if Clinton's media team does what I think they are going to do, you might start to see your family repeating talking points that are more positive eventually. But that is a very hard nut to crack, even with national advertising buys during major media events.
posted by daq at 3:45 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, wait. I misread you, daq.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:46 PM on August 8, 2016

ChurchHatesTucker: oh, I know what he means. I was just trying to point out he left out a bunch of other religions to try and exclude from entering the U.S.

Edit: Is ok, I write funny.
posted by daq at 3:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm completely done with this vote-as-expression-of-conscience horseshit after the primaries. This is a fucken job interview, there's two candidates, pick one.

Wish I could remember who said this, but: The RSVP for the reception has two choices. You can choose chicken, or you can choose fish. You can throw a tantrum and write in steak, but you aren't getting a steak because the caterers are only providing chicken or fish, so make a fucking choice.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:48 PM on August 8, 2016 [54 favorites]

> immigrants are a-okay then. /sarcasm

This is from Pence, who has been downgrading Trumps spew-hole garbage lately, but I'm actually kind of ok with the new redefinition: refugees/immigrants will be barred based on the territory they are from, not the prospective refugee/immigrant's personal religiousity.

I presume that atheists from "banned territories" would also be banned.

Still, it's insanity, and a little confusing that they would muddy up their anti-muslim message. I'm chalking this up as another example of incompetence.
posted by porpoise at 3:50 PM on August 8, 2016

Wish I could remember who said this, but: The RSVP for the reception has two choices. You can choose chicken, or you can choose fish. You can throw a tantrum and write in steak, but you aren't getting a steak because the caterers are only providing chicken or fish, so make a fucking choice.

It's writing "steak" and counting on the person behind you to tell the staff to make you the chicken dish because at least you can eat that whereas the fish is full of little sharp bones and racism. But of course you can't just write down chicken, you need The People to know that you're a steak person and you will not compromise your steak-principles but somebody please make sure you get the chicken when it comes down to it
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:53 PM on August 8, 2016 [86 favorites]

Re: 'Fail Trucks', sighted in suburban Mass. - Hummer H3 with vanity plate "NOMOBO", surprisingly faded "Ben Carson For President" bumper stickers along with (paraphrasing) "It's My Business, I Built It" and "Some People Just Want To Get Everything For Free" stickers.
posted by the painkiller at 3:54 PM on August 8, 2016

It's actually not any more okay to discriminate based on national origin than on religion

they are both really really non-okay
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:54 PM on August 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

The RSVP for the reception has two choices. You can choose chicken, or you can choose fish a live, angry cobra on your plate.
posted by Mayhembob at 3:55 PM on August 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

Wish I could remember who said this, but: The RSVP for the reception has two choices. You can choose chicken, or you can choose fish. You can throw a tantrum and write in steak, but you aren't getting a steak because the caterers are only providing chicken or fish, so make a fucking choice.

Sure, but if Charlie Pierce finds seated next to Henry Kissinger at the reception, it's probably a good thing they aren't serving steak, so there won't be any steak knives around on the table.
posted by zachlipton at 3:56 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Donald Trump on Baltimore’s Mayor: ‘She Is A Joke’

Oh phew. I was afraid he was hiding all his pent-up anger and his head might explode. After all we can't have an election day pass without Trump lashing out at someone-- he might do himself an injury.

During the State of the Union show Sunday morning, Jake Tapper asked Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake if Democrats could get too confident.

“I think if we paid attention as much as much as pollsters and as much as the media does to the polling we can get complacent and I think there’s a risk that people might not come out to vote. But we’re not going to do that,” she said. “This election is too important and the poll numbers are great now, but the poll numbers that matter are the polls in November and that’s getting people out to the poll to vote. There’s so much that’s happening with voter’s suppression. Why? Because that’s the only way the republicans win–If they close the tent, reduce the tent, keep voters away from the polls. We are not going to be fooled. So all of this, the bad week for Trump, the good week for Clinton, that’s fine this week, but we’re very focused on a grassroots game to get people to the polls this election matters too much.”

Trump fired back on Twitter calling the Baltimore mayor a joke.

“I see where Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake of Baltimore is pushing Crooked hard,” he said. “Look at the job she has done in Baltimore. She is a joke!”

“Crooked” is a term Trump uses to refer to Hillary Clinton.

Thanks for that little tip, CBS. It's good to have this insider knowledge.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:56 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

I bring my pet mongoose with me to catered events for exactly that eventuality though
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:57 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Well alternately you could be playing a long game, hoping that eventually steak will be an option if enough people request it.

Really though because of the vagaries of FPTP, the proper way to run this strategy is to join up with people asking for something almost but not quite fish, in the interest of splitting the fish vote long-term, thereby sabotaging all fishy parties and freeing up space for the steakmost members of the chicken party to safely push that party toward steakalism.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:00 PM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Somebody oughta trick Henry Kissinger onto a non-stop flight to the southern cone. Or Cambodia. Or any of a dozen places that would arrest him.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:01 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Fuck you guys, I'm writing in "Dessert" and I'm eating dessert for every course and if you don't get any because I've eaten it all that'll teach you to vote for Cheesecake in the future.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:01 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Stephanie Rawlings Blake is fairly unpopular in Maryland, even among ostensibly liberal people. That being said, Maryland is no closer to turning red than [looks through list of red states] uh, Texa- no... [continues to look] um... Kentucky, is to turning blue. Regardless of how much trump panders to the yokels and racists in the county.
posted by codacorolla at 4:02 PM on August 8, 2016

Cheesecake/ Creme Brulee 2020.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:02 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Stephanie Rawlings-Blake is responsible for the first of many gavel incidents at the DNC. That was top notch physical comedy, not a mere joke.
posted by zachlipton at 4:05 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

YCTAB: Really though because of the vagaries of FPTP, the proper way to run this strategy is to join up with people asking for something almost but not quite fish, in the interest of splitting the fish vote long-term, thereby sabotaging all fishy parties and freeing up space for the steakmost members of the chicken party to safely push that party toward steak.

Hamburger?
posted by Scattercat at 4:07 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

As Lenin argued in his famous pamphlet, so-called "left-wing" support for dessert before the meal is best understood as an infantile disorder.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:08 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

it doesn't even have to be either/or, chicken can be dessert (I learned this in the Turkish delight thread)
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:10 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

LUMPER.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:11 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

My letters are so great

I write fabulous letters. If you read all the letters I have written, you would agree. You would love them. Other letter writers are weak, soft, and out of touch.

posted by zakur at 4:18 PM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

As Lenin argued in his famous pamphlet, so-called "left-wing" support for dessert before the meal is best understood as an infantile disorder.

Could be. Or it could be my momma taught me to eat dessert first because otherwise you might be too full. Our great Thanksgiving tradition was to eat pie the night before because it was so much better when you weren't feeling glutted the day of the big feast. I guess that means my mama never taught me about the miracle of portion control but there we are. Sometimes all you want for dinner is a hot fudge sundae.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:23 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sometimes all you want for dinner is a hot fudge sundae.

Ha, yeah, "sometimes."
posted by infinitywaltz at 4:24 PM on August 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

...he lives in a super blue state so he gets to have his protest vote confident that others will do the work of electing the qualified president for him

Strange attitude. Voters in non-swing-states aren't choosing to be disenfranchised; that's just how electoral college math works. I'm strongly in favor of sucking up your pride and choosing the lesser of two evils when your choice actually has a chance of affecting something, but when someone is stuck casting a purely symbolic vote in any case, isn't it a bit entitled to deny them their own choice of symbolism?
posted by roystgnr at 4:24 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'd ask why these heirs aren't out there building and creating their own wealth. Why do they need handouts from any source?

Okay my attempt at a non-snarky (okay less-snarky) answer is that inheritance is seen as a special kind of transfer, or rather not even a transfer at all. Even people who won't be affected by it still get kind of misty-eyed when they think about passing their mom and pop pickup-truck-full-of-apple-pies-and-guns business on to junior some day, and they don't like government intruding on this, they don't even like the idea of filling out a form, they want the government to fuck off out of this important private special family matter.
posted by nom de poop at 4:25 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

isn't it a bit entitled to deny them their own choice of symbolism?

well from my perspective I see the entitlement more along the vector of having the luxury of being able to cast a protest vote while other people have to organize and GOTV and put some real effort into turning their states blue, particularly since I am just complaining on the internet and have no power to deny Charles Pierce a blessed thing. But good god do the annoying guys on your Facebook feed need more encouragement along these lines?
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:28 PM on August 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Hey! Feynman ate his dessert before the main course, because - as he said - 'you never know'. And if you're asking me to choose between Feynman and Trump...

Feynman may even have been the anti-Trump. If they'd met, it could have been bad news for the solar system.
posted by Devonian at 4:31 PM on August 8, 2016

God, we're all going to need months of deprogramming after this election before the words best, huge, beautiful, great, fantastic, tremendous, sad, incredible, big-league, classy, wall, deal, disaster, trump, and win are usable again.

Win hadn't fully recovered from Charlie Sheen yet. Poor win.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 4:31 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

yeah i'm sorry, i'm pretty okay with the government interrupting your misty eyes if it prevents your dad from creating an endless line of people who never have to do a day's work in their lives
posted by murphy slaw at 4:33 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

If you have the time The Atlantic has a great article to chew on:
Why Donald Trump Appeals to Evangelicals
A look at the long history of “Christian libertarianism” in the United States

It's an interview with Kevin Kruse, who wrote One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:33 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

I can't even hear repeated intensifiers like "very, very" or "really, really" at this point without some involuntary twitching

autocorrect suggested "involuntary manslaughter", would also work
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:36 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

If ever there were a tax that several of the country's founders would be all for, it's the estate tax.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Win hadn't fully recovered from Charlie Sheen yet.

pretty sure dj khaled can reclaim "win" any time he damn well feels like it
posted by murphy slaw at 4:38 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

As someone who used to listen to talk radio out of a morbid curiosity, I can say that the death tax thing was sold by Rush Limbaugh pretty much exactly like this: Maw and Paw Farmer are hard working, salt of the earth, Christian, Good People (tm). Their farm has been in their family for generations. Maw and Paw don't have a lot of cash but they eek out an honest existence. Maw and Paw's farm has increased in value over the years so that it is now worth more than the death tax floor. Yes, Maw and Paw's farm is apparently in Brooklyn or maybe San Francisco. Maw and Paw die and their children can't afford to pay the taxes and keep this farm that's been in their family for generations and generations. This is a TRAVESTY that must be avoided at all costs.
posted by gatorae at 4:40 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

From "Why Donald Trump Appeals to Evangelicals: A look at the long history of “Christian libertarianism” in the United States":

In his telling, a good Christian goes to heaven; a bad one goes to hell. A good capitalist makes profit, a bad one goes to the poorhouse. In both systems, individuals rise on their own merits.

This is not a good summary of traditional conservative Protestant soteriology.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:44 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

tivalasvegas: "In his telling, a good Christian goes to heaven; a bad one goes to hell."

I hope that in one of the debates, someone asks Trump, "As a Christian, what sins do you struggle with?" I'm genuinely curious to know what his answer would be.

Edit: Okay, I didn't actually read the link, and now I see that that quote was not referencing Trump. Just wanted to acknowledge that here so it doesn't cause future confusion.
posted by roll truck roll at 4:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's how my paw paw lost his mayonnaise farm.
posted by guiseroom at 4:47 PM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

This is not a good summary of traditional conservative Protestant soteriology

yeah, it notably excludes Calvinism and its descendants. "not by works", etc.
posted by murphy slaw at 4:48 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

gatorae I remember that was how the "estate tax" was turned into the "death duty." I also remember that when George Steinbrenner died he died conveniently at a moment when the inheritance tax had been allowed to lapse by congress. His heirs saved $600 million.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:49 PM on August 8, 2016

I hope that in one of the debates, someone asks Trump, "As a Christian, what sins do you struggle with?" I'm genuinely curious to know what his answer would be.

"I just keep winning. I win so much, God is tired of me winning. He says to me, Donald, enough with the winning already."
posted by murphy slaw at 4:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Of all the Gods that don't talk to Trump, I think Yahweh doesn't talk to him the most.
posted by maggiepolitt at 4:56 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Their farm has been in their family for generations. Maw and Paw don't have a lot of cash but they eek out an honest existence. Maw and Paw's farm has increased in value over the years so that it is now worth more than the death tax floor. Yes, Maw and Paw's farm is apparently in Brooklyn or maybe San Francisco. Maw and Paw die and their children can't afford to pay the taxes and keep this farm that's been in their family for generations and generations. This is a TRAVESTY that must be avoided at all costs.

This is pretty damn ignorant. An acre of top quality farmland in Indiana runs over $9k. For an individual that equates to about 600 acres or about 1200 for a married couple. That is ignoring all of the extremely expensive specialized equipment that modern grain farmers need.

Does 600 acres sound like a lot? It's not. In fact it would be a small farm and you would have a hard time living solely off of that. 1200 is a moderate sized farm. Si it is indeed very easy for a farm to surpass the inheritance tax threshold. By the way, neither previous scenario is a situation where the inheritance would lead to a wealthy lifestyle - not if you wanted to be a farmer.

Because of this, estate planning is an important consideration for farm families. Continue to support an inheritance tax if you think it is necessary, but try to actually consider the ramifications before spouting off.
posted by nolnacs at 5:02 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

Yes, if you own one of the 0.8% of farms that would make you eligible to pay the estate tax, you should definitely plan your legacy accordingly.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:07 PM on August 8, 2016 [91 favorites]

I just saw all of the related posts. From 2000. Why are we even *pretending* there's a third choice?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 5:12 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

"They’re scared," Ivanka Trump said of her father's harshest critics. "They never thought that he’d be where he is."

I wish that was a TV clip. I'd love to see an ad that said "Even Ivanka Trump thinks Americans are scared of her father!"

Except as a signalling gesture to a small subset of "very serious" people, I fail to see the point of seeking Henry's approval in any way, shape, or form. I wish she wouldn't do that. OTOH, Charlie Fuckin' Manson could endorse her and she'd still probably get my vote. (Now putting him in her cabinet might give me pause.)
posted by octobersurprise at 5:14 PM on August 8, 2016

I live in a very rural area with some very big farms. Trust me that I say nearly everyone around here has considered the ramifications and isn't "spouting off." A $5M/$10M inheritance puts a family solidly in the top handful percent of wealth in this country.
posted by introp at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Re: 'Fail Trucks'

"GUNS KILL hippies"

makes me feel sick whenever I see it
posted by sallybrown at 5:16 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Was told today ALL the polls are by corporations who want Clinton so they can sell more bombs for war. Wait. No Crooked Hillary I mean. ( yeah there are still bitter Sanders supporters out there )
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:21 PM on August 8, 2016

So Larry Klayman crawled out from under his rock to sue Clinton for Patricia Smith and Charles Woods.

Apparently Klayman missed the classes in law school regarding qualified immunity. How the fuck has he not been disbarred after a decade of this shit?
posted by Talez at 5:23 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

The "family farm" argument is always trotted out about the estate tax. First, the exemption, without any estate planning, is over $10 million for a couple. I'm not completely unsympathetic to someone who wants to pass their $10M asset onto their children and considers the estate tax a high price to pay, but it's a pretty bad reason to repeal the tax for every hereditary millionaire that's never been on a farm in their life. Not to mention that if you're sitting on a $10 million asset and you find it difficult to make a living, you just might want to get out of the farming business, no matter how much we need farmers as a society. At the end of the day, a $10M farm, even if it's the family farm, is just another asset, and anybody who owns it is, in fact, extremely wealthy, even if, unfortunately, it's not generating much profit for them.

And then there are a bunch of special exemptions for farmers, such as allowing heirs to pay the taxes off over 15 years at low interest rates (and interest only for the first five years).

Lastly, remember that the basis on the farm is stepped up when it is inherited too. As I understand it, you can buy a farm (or other asset) for $1 million, have it appreciate in value to $5 million, pass it on to your kids with no taxes paid, and they can then sell it without paying any capital gains too.

Maybe there's an argument for some tweaks so nobody has to sell a chunk of the family farm, but we're getting to the point where you want to create national tax policy to give a break to maybe a dozen or two people a year, and that gets harrowing quickly.
posted by zachlipton at 5:25 PM on August 8, 2016 [55 favorites]

How the fuck has he not been disbarred after a decade of this shit?

I mean, Orly Taitz has never been disbarred, either.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:27 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

guys guys what if it's not really about farms? what if the farms thing is just a specious cover story?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:28 PM on August 8, 2016 [82 favorites]

I live in a very rural area with some very big farms. Trust me that I say nearly everyone around here has considered the ramifications and isn't "spouting off." A $5M/$10M inheritance puts a family solidly in the top handful percent of wealth in this country

And I grew up on a farm in rural Indiana [hence my example]. I know how the local farmers live and while they have a great deal of wealth in land, they are not living a luxurious lifestyle.

And farmland prices have increased dramatically in the past decade which would push some of the medium sized family farms into estate tax area.

Yes, if you own one of the 0.8% of farms that would make you eligible to pay the estate tax, you should definitely plan your legacy accordingly.

I would like to know how many of these are full time farmers vs hobby farmers. I know of a lot of them in the area where I grew up. Maybe 20 acres raising horses or cattle. It's not exactly the same thing. Unfortunately, the link doesn't go into details on the breakdown.
posted by nolnacs at 5:30 PM on August 8, 2016

Does 600 acres sound like a lot? It's not. In fact it would be a small farm and you would have a hard time living solely off of that. 1200 is a moderate sized farm.

This is wildly false. Wildly. Take a look at Figure 1 in this report from the USDA (pdf): in 2011, just over half (51.5%) of farms are less than 50 acres; nearly 9 out of 10 (88.9% of) farms are less than 500 acres; and 94.5% are less than 1,000 acres.

As with other kinds of inequality in America, most of the cropland is on a very few farms: the largest 2.2% of farms have 34.3% of the acreage. But the typical family farm -- by any reasonable measure of "typical" -- is smaller than 1,000 acres and unlikely to face any inheritance tax.

And as with other kinds of inequality, it has gotten worse and is getting worse. (Compare Figures 1 and 2 in the linked report.)

Moreover, as the section titled "Continuing Advantages to Size in Crop Farming" makes clear: larger farms have serious financial advantages over smaller farms. So, if you are fortunate enough to actually face an inheritance tax, it is likely that you have made significant money already and can well afford the tax.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 5:30 PM on August 8, 2016 [64 favorites]

is the klayman lawsuit likely to ever see an initial hearing or will the filing be summarily dismissed due to qualified immunity?

(if you're like me and didn't know what qualified immunity is, it's the doctrine that says that federal officials can't be held liable for conducting the duties of thier office, basically)
posted by murphy slaw at 5:34 PM on August 8, 2016

is the klayman lawsuit likely to ever see an initial hearing or will the filing be summarily dismissed due to qualified immunity?

It looks like they did put a defamation claim in there to see if they can get it to survive summary judgement.
posted by Talez at 5:36 PM on August 8, 2016

I'm not completely unsympathetic to someone who wants to pass their $10M asset onto their children and considers the estate tax a high price to pay

I am. Fuck 'em. Assets are fungible, and if you're leaving $5/10M+ in assets congratulations you were filthy fucking rich and should be treated like other filthy rich fuckers.

I know how the local farmers live and while they have a great deal of wealth in land, they are not living a luxurious lifestyle.

Honestly, if you have $5 million plus in productive assets and can't make a living with them, that's just God's way of telling you to do something else for a living. You know, like everyone who isn't a farmer has to do when the economy shifts away from what they were doing.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [45 favorites]

It's actually not any more okay to discriminate based on national origin than on religion

Well, while I mostly agree with you, the US has done this forever. It definitely does it today. Whereas there is currently no religious-based immigration policy that I am aware of.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:37 PM on August 8, 2016

Obviously everyone is opposed to the estate tax just in case they have some rich distant relative they're not aware of who somehow has no one else to will their estate to.

Clearly the only thing to do is to set up a system to waive the inheritance tax if and only if the beneficiaries can last a full night in a haunted house.
posted by ckape at 5:40 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

Honestly, if you have $5 million plus in productive assets and can't make a living with them, that's just God's way of telling you to do something else for a living. You know, like everyone who isn't a farmer has to do when the economy shifts away from what they were doing.

On the one hand, I want to agree with you.

On the other hand, I want to be able to buy a loaf of bread for less than $23.
posted by dersins at 5:41 PM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

This is wildly false. Wildly. Take a look at Figure 1 in this report from the USDA (pdf): in 2011, just over half (51.5%) of farms are less than 50 acres; nearly 9 out of 10 (88.9% of) farms are less than 500 acres; and 94.5% are less than 1,000 acres

You are right. I over generalized based on my experience with grain farming. Many other types of farms are much smaller - such as fruit & vegetable farms.
posted by nolnacs at 5:42 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

the estate tax will ruin the adventure game industry if estranged uncles can no longer leave spooky houses full of elaborate machinery to their nephews without government interference
posted by murphy slaw at 5:42 PM on August 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

Unless I'm missing something, the estate tax only applies to the portion above the $5/10 million. If you can't manage that, perhaps the land can be put to better use.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:44 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

> On the one hand, I want to agree with you.

On the other hand, I want to be able to buy a loaf of bread for less than $23.
posted by dersins at 5:41 PM on August 8 [+] [!]

shoot if it's that hard to grow food at a profit we might as well just go ahead and nationalize the farms i guess.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:44 PM on August 8, 2016 [29 favorites]

Rush's core audience is people who a) own farms b) know people who own farms or c) have a vested interest in funding propaganda idealizing small farm owners as a stalking horse for policies that reduce taxes owed on their $450 million hedge fund.

This isn't that hard.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:45 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

I mean you're not wrong. Grain farming is clearly a low margin business, especially at current prices, which is how the big players make it work: huge farms mean bigger economies of scale. But it's hard for me to get away from the judgement that if you're sitting on a $10M asset and can't make a living with it, you already are effectively a hobbyist and ought to take the cash, buy yourself a $1M home with cash, and come up with something else to do with the remaining $8-9M or so. What's the argument against that?
posted by zachlipton at 5:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

c) have a vested interest in funding propaganda idealizing small farm owners as a stalking horse for policies that reduce taxes owed on their $450 million hedge fund.

I have no idea who listens to Rush Limbaugh, but my assumption has tended to be that it isn’t people on Wall Street - especially given the relatively small number of people in the 1% relative to the vast size of his audience. Could well be wrong, though.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:51 PM on August 8, 2016

I thought Rush's core audience was nerds.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:56 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's back, baby!

Many people are saying that the Iranians killed the scientist who helped the U.S. because of Hillary Clinton's hacked emails.

Note that this was debunked today at noon, long before Donald tweeted.
posted by sallybrown at 5:58 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton v Trump trend chart side by side with the 2012 Obama v Romney trend chart
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:00 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Of course inheritance tax is one of the few taxes which encourages people to spend money so you'd think the trickle-down people would be all in favor of that.

Almost as if they're not actually concerned with driving the economy and actually only want to hoard their wealth and avoid contributing their share
posted by ckape at 6:00 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think "Many People Are Saying That" will be a stirring, chilling choral number in the inevitable opera about Trump. --@emilynussbaum

In reply: It's Trump's "The Room Where It Happens" --@hunterwalk
posted by zachlipton at 6:01 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

But it's hard for me to get away from the judgement that if you're sitting on a $10M asset and can't make a living with it, you already are effectively a hobbyist and ought to take the cash, buy yourself a $1M home with cash, and come up with something else to do with the remaining $8-9M or so. What's the argument against that?

Cashing out that $10 million asset means you need someone to buy it. The parts of the country under till for grain production are not always hotbeds of development -- you might be able to sell a quarter or a section to a neighbor who's financially in the same boat but just a little bit more stubborn.

My family is going to be in the same boat in 20-30 years willing. On paper it's a $2 million estate but $1.9 million of that is in dirt no one wants to buy.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:01 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

My family is going to be in the same boat in 20-30 years willing. On paper it's a $2 million estate but $1.9 million of that is in dirt no one wants to buy.

That's still 80 grand more than most see in a year.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:06 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh absolutely -- it's a windfall that's three generations in the making, all started by getting the land practically for free.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:09 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I mean you're not wrong. Grain farming is clearly a low margin business, especially at current prices, which is how the big players make it work: huge farms mean bigger economies of scale. But it's hard for me to get away from the judgement that if you're sitting on a $10M asset and can't make a living with it, you already are effectively a hobbyist and ought to take the cash, buy yourself a $1M home with cash, and come up with something else to do with the remaining $8-9M or so. What's the argument against that?

Family tradition. It is hard for people to give up the farm that had been in their family for 150+ years - in my family's case since 1844. [As a side note, my family's farm will not exceed the estate tax threshold].

In any case, if you have a farm worth $10M, then you are generally making a living - just not the kind that people would expect from you having that kind of wealth. Which as you point out is a justification for doing something else.

By the way, thank you for the well reasoned argument in favor of the estate tax and farming.
posted by nolnacs at 6:09 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

If it's a $2 million estate... it's exempt.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:09 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

On paper it's a $2 million estate but $1.9 million of that is in dirt no one wants to buy.

It's not subject to the estate tax, so no worries there. Rent it to someone looking to expand without incurring estate problems themselves.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:10 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

One very easy fix to the tax to address the problem of having most of the value of an estate in land that isn't easy to sell quickly would be to let people pay the relevant tax by turning over to the government some percentage of the land itself. So (simplifying a lot of the details and rounding), if you have, say 2,500 acres worth $25 million, and you owe 40% tax on 2,000 of those acres that make the value go over the $5 million floor, then instead of needing dollars on hand, you could give back 800 acres to the government and keep a 1700 acre estate without paying any actual dollars to the government. The government should have a relatively easy time sitting on the property until it can be sold.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 6:12 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Estate tax facts

Since we were talking about toxic masculinity: Trump Is a Climax of American Masculinity, from the Atlantic

Also from The Atlantic, a pretty detailed piece about the white underclass.

To zero in on the white underclass in or near slaveholding areas is, understandably, to dwell on the fraught dynamic between poor whites and enslaved African Americans ... But there were whole other swaths of the country where many poor whites lived without any blacks nearby to speak of—not least the broad expanse of Appalachia. ....

In Appalachia, that homogeneity, along with the region’s populist tradition, helps explain why white voters there took so much longer to flip from Democrat to Republican than in the Deep South. This does not mean that racism is absent in these areas—far from it. But it suggests that the racism is fueled as much by suspicion of the “other” as it is by firsthand experience of blacks and competition with them—and that political sentiment on issues such as welfare and crime isn’t as racially motivated as many liberal analysts assume.

It kinda seems like he finds ten ways to say "it's not actually about race" without once mentioning the real racial animus that is actually happening
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:13 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

For comparison, death duty (sorry, inheritance tax) in the UK is far more onerous - 40% of the value of estates over £325,000, or 36% if at least 10% of the estate is given to charity. Given that the average house value in England is about that, you can see that you lot have got it very, very easy.

But the nation isn't up in arms about it; there are various things you can do with some planning to transfer your assets to your kids over time, there are a bunch of exemptions and I think the major injustice is that people who are very wealthy can afford to really go to town to manage avoidance - it's the people who've got few liquid assets and a modest home who'll end up paying the most.

My parents haven't got two pennies to rub together, have never owned property, and have been eBaying their knick-nacks for gin money. and I'll get the square root of nothing when they go. I'm very pro inheritance tax. My best friend's parents bought extremely well in the 1960s, and their Hampstead house (so un-hip at the time, a science fiction author owned it) is now worth a squad-oodle. We are very alike in almost every respect of class, income, education, politics and life-view, but he is extremely anti inheritance tax. I don't think that any moral or ethical dimension exists sufficient to shift most people from their own immediate experience when it comes to this, so it's a purely political matter of what you can get away with.
posted by Devonian at 6:14 PM on August 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

Devonian,

Feynman was a great man but he does have at least one thing in common with Trump: they're both really misogynist & into sexual harassment. So he can't be the anti-Trump, sorry!
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

GOP Senator Susan Collins will not vote for Trump.
posted by chris24 at 6:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [38 favorites]

I don't approve this message:
NAMBLA Becomes Donald Trump’s Birther Moment

But, schadenfreude and all that ...
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:19 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

From Senator Collins' WaPo: Some will say that as a Republican I have an obligation to support my party’s nominee. I have thought long and hard about that, for being a Republican is part of what defines me as a person. I revere the history of my party, most particularly the value it has always placed on the worth and dignity of the individual, and I will continue to work across the country for Republican candidates. It is because of Mr. Trump’s inability and unwillingness to honor that legacy that I am unable to support his candidacy.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:24 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Oh, not just that - they both have/had yuge egos too, albeit with different structures. Yuge!

But particles and anti-particles can share properties like mass and spin, they're not mirrors in all (or even most) respects. You still wouldn't want them in the same space at the same time. Unless you enjoyed fireworks.
posted by Devonian at 6:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

NAMBLA Becomes Donald Trump’s Birther Moment

It does explain why he doesn't use email or have a computer on his desk, because the various settlements with his victims forbid it, right?
posted by peeedro at 6:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm not saying its true but a lot of people are talking about it. A lot of smart people are saying things about it.
posted by Justinian at 6:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

I am really looking forward to the debates, at this point. Hillary is going to rip Trump to shreds. I cannot wait to see what happens when he has to deal with her face-to-face, one-on-one, in real time, in front of the whole country rather than just an audience of screaming sycophants.

Whatever some people may think about Hillary, she is clearly brilliant. And careful, and experienced, and well-prepared. And there's no way she's gotten to where she is today without a ruthless streak a mile wide. She is going to destroy him in the debates, and it will be glorious.

We still haven't really seen her with her claws out. She and Bernie were being very gentle with each other during the primaries, and for that matter Sanders was a much tougher opponent, in the sense that a lot of what he had to say was actually true and not that far from Clinton's own positions, so it was more about drawing contrasts and highlighting nuances than just flat-out repudiating him. Trump is a monster and a buffoon by comparison.

You can see it in her eyes, you can see it in her smile. She's looking forward to this too.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:30 PM on August 8, 2016 [61 favorites]

Looking around it appears that if the Trump and anti-Trump ever met, each weighing around 100 kg, the result would be a bang of around 5,000 megatons. That is in the ballpark of the total yield of all nuclear weapons in existence put together. So maybe that's where Trump came from?
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Man, I ended up falling down a bit of a rabbit hole following the Romney links. I had forgotten how purely delusional he was about his chances at the end of the 2012 campaign. His campaign was telling each other that Virginia was in the bag. Not "If we are very lucky in how the electorate turns out, we could get Virginia", but "Virginia is definitely ours, lets go campaign in Pennsylvania to extend our mandate when we are elected!"
posted by tavella at 6:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mooski: "(I shit you not) eight-foot Confederate Battle Flag flying from the roll bars."

Tall, long or diagonally?

nathan_teske: "On paper it's a $2 million estate but $1.9 million of that is in dirt no one wants to buy."

If no one wants to buy it at 1.9 million it isn't worth 1.9 million.
posted by Mitheral at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

And those numbers are looking pretty good. Not fantastic, but pretty good.

FRED has a series called PAYEMS -- best title ever -- counting total jobs:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=6uau

I've added 75% of the age 15-64 population in red since that was the level the economy got in 1999, when we were at "full employment" more or less.

By this graph we have 144M jobs and around 154M people of working age (x 75%), for a notional shortage of 10M jobs compared to "full employment". It's probably higher since more age 65+ are working now compared to 2000.

The economy dumped 8M jobs during the recession.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=6uaB

shows that since 2000 we've lost 5M mfg jobs, since 2007 we've lost 1M construction jobs, and since Y2K we've lost 1M information jobs.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I know you guys have probably forgotten McMullin already, but...

I live in Utah and this guy may supposedly be the "standard bearer for Mormons" but...

- None of the local news outlets have mentioned his run AT ALL.
- I've never heard of him and none of the Mormons I know has either.
- Mormons won't vote for "any Mormon" over Trump. But they'll vote for Johnson apparently.
posted by mmoncur at 6:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Sigh. I feel bad for these parents but their lawsuit is like a mashup of right-wing talking points, including trying to link BENGHAZI and Emailgate (!?!).
posted by dhens at 6:52 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Honestly the family farm argument is total bullshit and everyone knows it's bullshit. The number of "family" farms actually impacted are really small and they tend to be in areas where land prices have dramatically changed in recent decades particularly in areas close to urban/suburban areas.

There is no god given right to hold the land of your forefathers forever especially as economic trends transform land from agricultural use to other uses. More often than not the farms that people are talking about tend to be extremely valuable land close to cities that family members want to hold onto until the maximum market value is achieved before selling to a developer.

Modern agriculture is indeed very capital intensive and the return on investment can be poor but exempting the land assets would just create all sorts of weird dynamics in the real estate market as people would park lots of money into non-productive land because of the tax sheltering capacity of it. In most cases it would be better for the inheritors to sell to the larger farms in the area in order to achieve better economies of scale.

We wouldn't typically dream of exempting a family owned factory from inheritance taxes so why do we want to privilege farms?

Just speculating of course IANAL but most "family" farms are also family run corporations (for liability reasons) so you can generally treat the farm part of the business as the corporation and treat the land part of the business as a familial assets for the purposes of estate planning and transferral.
posted by vuron at 6:53 PM on August 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

In the hysteria following the murder of a New Orleans police chief, 11 Italian-Americans were lynched by a vigilante mob angry about the city’s influx of immigrants. Here’s how the past and future of American nativism may not be that different.

Donald Trump’s entire candidacy has been premised on purging the United States of the foreign enemies within as a means of restoring national greatness. Among his most trusted surrogates are men like Paul Manafort, Chris Christie, and Rudy Giuliani, who now speak of Muslims and Mexicans in the same tone and language that was once reserved for their Italian-American ancestors, targeted by the nativist movement that began in the late 19th century.
But this incident — and the way the accompanying fervor was spread in the national press — helped define the character of Italian immigrants for Americans for generations, providing proof of their fundamental dangerousness for the anti-immigrant backlash that followed.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:54 PM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

The Charlie Pierce piece that mentions Kissinger is reacting to Clinton's troubling use of her connections to Kissinger to give herself gravitas. This and her speeches to big investment banks are in large part what pushed me to vote Sanders in the primary. I am gung-ho Clinton now; I even added the H-arrow overlay to my Facebook profile pic. Still, from now on, I hope Clinton will avoid trying to tie herself to Kissinger to show that she is "serious."
posted by dhens at 6:55 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

She is going to destroy him in the debates, and it will be glorious.

See, though, even here I am still pretty sure that the Trump supporters are going to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to explain all that away, and we're going to see all sorts of Monday-morning quarterbacking about how Hillary was too shrill/emotional/unemotional/bitchy/direct/indirect/talked circularly/concentrated on things that didn't matter/didn't concentrate enough/concentrated too much on one point/was too egg-heady/used too many fancy words/didn't sound smart enough/looked ugly, and do you want someone like that, or someone like our boy Trump who's reg'lar folk like us?

Trump himself isn't the only danger. The fact that Trump nevertheless has supporters, despite the defcon-1 level warning signs, that's the real danger.

You can't just kill the weed at the head, you have to also pay attention to the roots. Or at least acknowledge that they're a concern.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:02 PM on August 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

Another way to look at it is examining federal corporate taxes as a share of the U.S. economy

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=6uaR

effective corporate tax rate since 1950
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:08 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd be happy if Kissinger endorsed Hillary. I think it's important to have as little public support for Donald as possible. Every name that goes to her side is a repudiation of Trump, even when that support is coming from a scoundrel.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:19 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mod note: I already knew Trump was a Saddam Hussein fan, but I missed his December take on Hussein's use of chemical weapons during the Iran-Iraq War:

Saddam Hussein throws a little gas, everyone goes crazy, "oh he's using gas!" @1:08:02

Iran Still Haunted and Influenced By Chemical Weapons Attacks: "...Iran suffered more than 50,000 casualties from Iraq’s repeated use of nerve agents and toxic gases in the 1980s."
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 7:22 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Not for nothing, but I've ridden the fences on a 600 acre ranch. That's about enough to graze a 100 head of cattle, assuming it rains. That didn't happen for a few years, and pretty much everyone sold off their herds. There's a metric fuckton of farms in the 600_1200 acre range in west Texas, and y'all, ain't nary of em worth enough to tax. Most of them survive only because of government programs. And yet, and yet...you head over to the feed store, and you'll have a passel of old men in John Deere hats, with barely two bits to rub together, who will tell you that family farms are why we shouldn't pass a "death tax".

My point is this, the republicans have mastered messaging. They create semantic programming that is almost unstoppable. They really do create language virii that replicates and spreads and is almost impossible to kill.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [57 favorites]

You can't just kill the weed at the head, you have to also pay attention to the roots.

And the roots were there before Trump, before Reagan, before Nixon. Fortunately the roots are a limited subset of our population, not a majority anywhere on a state or national level.

The problem isn't the racist asshole fuckwits themselves, it's the major political party which decided in the 1960's that they would be useful idiots to give them votes while they looted the country. They legitimized the racist asshole fuckwits and gave their idols respectability and a national megaphone. Meanwhile the racist asshole fuckwits obediently voted for people who claimed trickle down would make them rich while they neck-stomped the enemy of the week.

The problem for the Republicans is that the racist asshole fuckwits were never on their own enough to give them the majorities they needed, but they are enthusiastic to an extent most voter aren't, and after years of hinting at it they finally rose up and took over what they came to regard as their party. So now it's kind of up in the air whether the old guard takes it back and the Republicans have to admit they are the party of old self-centered money or they are driven out by the racist asshole fuckwits by the power of the primary that was supposed to be engineered to prevent such a tragically democratic result.

However it shakes out, maybe the rich businesspeople angling to protect their tax breaks will think twice before making such a faustian deal again. Oh wait, who the fuck am I kidding.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:28 PM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'd be happy if Kissinger endorsed Hillary. I think it's important to have as little public support for Donald as possible. Every name that goes to her side is a repudiation of Trump, even when that support is coming from a scoundrel.

I think that the populations of Chile, Bangladesh, Cambodia, and East Timor would use words much stronger than "scoundrel" to describe Kissinger. I would prefer it if Clinton didn't mention Kissinger at all, and if Kissinger, failing any accountability for his actions, kept silent this election. His endorsement would seem to validate some of the hardcore Berners' concerns about Clinton.
posted by dhens at 7:39 PM on August 8, 2016 [38 favorites]

All the talk about Rush Limbaugh earlier got me thinking about Infinite Jest and how Donald Trump is basically Johnny Gentle in a lot of ways just more unpredictable and dangerous.

Did David know all along?
posted by guiseroom at 7:39 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I mean it's been a while since I've read IJ but basically Trump and Johnny Gentle are similar in that they're both cartoonish hyperexaggerations of Reagan. Who was himself a cartoonish hyperexaggeration, so, y'know. we're living in weird times.

Also the experialist scheme from Infinite Jest makes way more sense than Trump's wall.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:47 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Still, from now on, I hope Clinton will avoid trying to tie herself to Kissinger to show that she is "serious."

And hey, Reince Priebus still hopes that Donald Trump can turn into a Serious Candidate. People can change, you know! Reboot XIV
posted by indubitable at 7:51 PM on August 8, 2016

Why does Kissinger have to endorse anybody? Why do we even have to ask him?


Why can't he just lie down and die somewhere? I'm sure Margaret and Augusto are saving him a bunk.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:56 PM on August 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

His endorsement would seem to validate some of the hardcore Berners' concerns about Clinton.

The thing about democracy is (and we've been explaining this to the sulking Bernie crowd since the day he stopped his campaign), it doesn't matter why you vote for someone, just that you do. If Kissinger were to get Clinton another four votes in South Carolina, then by God, I want Kissinger's endorsement. If an Ouija board channelling the ghost of Hitler (just to Godwinize this line of thought immediately) were to get Clinton another two votes in Georgia, then start a seance.

Winner-take-all politics aren't about purity. Hardcore Bernie supporters seem unable to grasp this. Quite frankly, I don't think we're going to win them over, and I'm not sure why anyone should be treating anything they say as anything other than purposeful derailment.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 8:04 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Their farm has been in their family for generations. Maw and Paw don't have a lot of cash but they eek out an honest existence.

On stolen land. If we want to get into the question of issues of justice and fairness w/r/t intergenerational land tenure, I know some Native Americans who would like their inheritances back.
posted by spitbull at 8:06 PM on August 8, 2016 [41 favorites]

In any other year, I would be side-eyeing the hell out of all these Republican and right wing endorsements, up to and including Kissinger. It would reflect badly on Clinton, absolutely. HOWEVER, it's important to remember that

a) This year is exceptional. The Republican candidate is quite literally a madman. Endorsements right now are mainly just indicating "I would like to not die in a nuclear wasteland."
b) Hillary has no control over who endorses her. Some people she courts but others just show up in the WSJ op-ed with their endorsement. No one needs her permission to endorse her.

So, while I might wish that some people who are endorsing her would just quietly pull the lever in November and not shoot their mouth off about it ahead of time because it does definitely look bad if you forget for a second what the alternative is, I'm not going to be sweating bullets over it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:13 PM on August 8, 2016 [26 favorites]

Senator Susan Collins: "I will not be voting for Donald Trump for president"
posted by chrchr at 8:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

okay but what happens if trump endorses her
posted by murphy slaw at 8:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

I mean you're not wrong. Grain farming is clearly a low margin business, especially at current prices, which is how the big players make it work: huge farms mean bigger economies of scale.

Seems y'all are forgetting that corporate farms are immortal, and therefore never subject to estate tax.

Meaning once market forces push the typical farm size up to where inheritance tax kicks in, they also immediately push the typical farm over to become a corporate plantation.

Obviously that happens quickly with cereal farms, owing to the large acreage.

But I would not be surprised if it happens quickly with orchards too. Once those acres are productive, I 'spect their value per acre shoots up.
posted by ocschwar at 8:16 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hillary has never been one to merely win. She wants to run up the score against Trump. So she'll go get Kissinger's endorsement if it brings along the conservative, realpolitik sorts that are Trump-shy.

The South is in play. Texas is potentially in play. The House and Senate are in play. She could potentially destroy the GOP as we know it. If it takes getting our favorite warmonger and Ironic Nobel Peace Prize Winner's endorsement, she'll do it.
posted by dw at 8:17 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

>>My family is going to be in the same boat in 20-30 years willing. On paper it's a $2 million estate but $1.9 million of that is in dirt no one wants to buy.

I mean, uh, then it ain't worth dirt, friend.

Some of it can just be that supply and demand for farmland are irregular. So there's only a buyer every three years, but he's willing to pay $2million because there's hardly anyone selling. If you can find one or more buyers, you'll get that much money, but there are long stretches of time when there are zero buyers.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:20 PM on August 8, 2016

Hillary has never been one to merely win. She wants to run up the score against Trump. So she'll go get Kissinger's endorsement if it brings along the conservative, realpolitik sorts that are Trump-shy.

The South is in play. Texas is potentially in play. The House and Senate are in play. She could potentially destroy the GOP as we know it. If it takes getting our favorite warmonger and Ironic Nobel Peace Prize Winner's endorsement, she'll do it.

She's a politician, not a kryptonian. Let's not get overconfident.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:25 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

A very wealthy Scottish gentleman I heard of once had the same issue when he went to sell his 1916 quarter.
posted by yhbc at 8:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Clinton's opponent has been endorsed by David Duke, Vladimir Putin, and Kim-Jong Un, and hasn't bothered to disavow any of them. I'm not going to freak out too much if Kissinger supports Clinton.
posted by mmoncur at 8:35 PM on August 8, 2016 [35 favorites]

Many people say Trump excels at beach volleyball.
posted by sallybrown at 8:36 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

A very wealthy Scottish gentleman I heard of once had the same issue when he went to sell his 1916 quarter.

i am in awe of this, the deepest of pulls
posted by murphy slaw at 8:38 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton accepts three debate invitations:

"It is concerning that the Trump campaign is already engaged in shenanigans around these debates," said Podesta. "It is not clear if he is trying to avoid debates, or merely toying with the press to create more drama."

Said Podesta: "Either way, our campaign is not interested in playing along with a debate about debates or bargaining around them. The only issue now is whether Donald Trump is going to show up to debate at the date, times, places and formats set by the commission last year through a bipartisan process. We will accept the commission's invitation and expect Donald Trump to do the same."

posted by kirkaracha at 8:41 PM on August 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

Hannity ran segments trying to smear Khizr Khan and spread the "Hillary has parkinsons" meme tonight, which seems a bit out there even for his astoundingly low standards. If this keeps up he'll be well into Alex Jones territory before the election is over.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:45 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

No, but Clinton should be playing up the fact that she's got supporters from Susan Collins to Tim Kane to Bernie Sanders, all of whom represent vastly different segments of the electorate, all of are respected by their supporters (and more-or-less non-toxic to everybody else), and all of whom are former opponents of Clinton herself.

Who is Clinton trying to win over by supporting Kissinger? What does she stand to lose?

This irked me during the primaries, and it irks me now. For all the reputation that Hillary has for being a cold, calculating politician, her relationship with Kissinger always seemed brazenly tone-deaf. It plays into all of the worst stereotypes about her governing philosophy, and seems unlikely to win her any votes (apart from Henry Kissinger's, I guess).

Clinton's (inspired) VP selection, and presentation at the DNC wiped away any remaining doubts about having her as president. I am enthusiastically campaigning for her, not simply because she's a lesser-evil, but because I think that she will be an excellent president.

But her continued public relationship with Henry Kissinger continues to be a huge, inexplicable WTF.
posted by schmod at 8:45 PM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

I suppose it's too early yet to bust out with, "Awwwwww, is widdle Donnie scared? Are his wee tiny hands shaking cuz he's so scared of 'Crooked' Hillary? Is he a chicken? We think he's a chicken. BAWWWNK BAWWWK BAWWWK DONNIE'S A CHICKEN."
posted by yasaman at 8:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Whatever some people may think about Hillary, she is clearly brilliant. And careful, and experienced, and well-prepared. And there's no way she's gotten to where she is today without a ruthless streak a mile wide. She is going to destroy him in the debates, and it will be glorious.

Eh, I dunno. You could have said the same of Obama, or Romeny; neither destroyed the other. Obama didn't destroy McCain. Beat, sure, destroy, no. When people talk about Presidential debates they still bring up Lloyd Benson's You're no JFK line or Reagan's There You Go Again. These things happenned 30 and 40 years ago, ish. Nothing that's happenned in a Presidential debate since has been more interesting or memorable. People give careful, well-trained answers to questions they have by and large anticipated and prepped for. I certainly trust Clinton to anticipate and to prep. But to destroy...destroying would be something that's memorable and pithy and spontenous. Christie's attack on Rubio in the primaries had that quality, and Rubio's malfuctioning robot response did him in.

There's certainly a really strong chance of that, of Trump self-destructing in some way --- being caught off guard and unable to come up with an answer, going over the top in his response to something, losing his cool. I wouldn't bet on it not happenning. I would bet against Clinton being able to generate that, to instantly put a pin through him the way Christie did with Rubio. She's a contract lawyer, not a litagator --- careful with her clauses, plays excellent defense, knows the issues cold, down to the smallest detail --- but she's not light on her feet and she doesn't have that instinct for the jugular, the abilty to spot a weakness and exploit it immediately. Good prosecutors do. So do bullies, and Trump is the later. I think he'll try to goad her and (hopefully) find his hits can't make her jump; I think she'll try and goad him and be too slow to get her jabs in, he'll deflect with some nonesense and ramble off into a tangent of his own. And he's far better than her at coming up with pithy soundbites off the cuff, stuff that's plain English and memorable, instead of regurgitated bureaucratese.
posted by maggiepolitt at 8:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

> Nothing that's happened in a Presidential debate since has been more interesting or memorable.

Please proceed.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:55 PM on August 8, 2016 [54 favorites]

Many people say Trump excels at beach volleyball.

Only time I've ever not outright loathed the man.

Don't ever do that again!
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:06 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

She has already accepted the endorsement of Ironic Nobel Peace Prize winners: consider the speech that President Obama gave at the convention. It pains me to say it, but if I keep myself from being sentimental and look at this objectively, Kissinger's endorsement wouldn't be much worse on that basis alone. Such an endorsement arguably signals to the Right People, ultimately, that the arms deals will keep going, that the perpetual state of war we are in will continue more or less unimpeded. It's just business.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:11 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Manage expectations. Remember Obama's first debate with Romney.
posted by Devonian at 9:11 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Please proceed.

A big part of Trump's debate strategy will be to attack the moderator. See what he does to Larry King here; he'll make a dominance display to both forestall a Candy Crowley moment and, by creating conflict with the moderator, feed into the narrative of the media not treating him fairly.
posted by peeedro at 9:12 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

It Has Been 17 Months and Counting Since Donald Trump Last Took Off His Jacket
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:15 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh, come on, a lungful of dragon. You really think Obama's endorsement is fundamentally equivalent to Kissinger's? Really? Obama is a quite popular sitting president, someone whose election was historic. Yes, there are people out there who have issues with his foreign policy, but it's easy for people across a broad swath of the political spectrum to find something to like about the man.

By contrast, in a word association game, many people with very middle-of-the-road political views hear "Kissinger" and blurt "war criminal." These endorsements may send the same message to some of the Right People, but they send a very different message to the average American left-wing voter.
posted by town of cats at 9:22 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

My cousin is coming from a "terror affected" country to go to school in a few weeks. He's not Muslim but the trumpences don't care. What if some tragedy befalls my family and they can't come here to visit?
I have an upset stomach just thinking about it so I went to watch the election night coverage of the 2012 election just to feel a bit better.
posted by zutalors! at 9:24 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

> Remember Gore's debate with Bush.

No, I put that entire campaign memory in a lockbox, and you can't make me take it out.
[Heavy sighs, amped up by mic.]
Got some wood?
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:24 PM on August 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

It Has Been 17 Months and Counting Since Donald Trump Last Took Off His Jacket

The funny thing is, there’s a side of Donald that not even [Marla] has seen. She has never seen him completely naked—at least almost never—because he won’t let her. Whenever they’re about to have sex, he makes her go into the bathroom while he gets undressed. As soon as he takes off his clothes, he jumps into the bed and pulls up the covers.

Paging Doctor Fünke. Paging Dr. Fünke. Please pick up the blue courtesy phone.
posted by schmod at 9:26 PM on August 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

Okay, I give up - can someone please explain the reference to the wealthy Scotsman and the 1916 quarter?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 PM on August 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Got some wood?

It's "need some wood".

Bush wasn't requesting your wood, he was offering to give his wood to you.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:31 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Secret of Atlantis, also, of 1916 quarters.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:33 PM on August 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

Bush wasn't requesting your wood, he was offering to give his wood to you.

And boy howdy, did he ever!
posted by notyou at 9:37 PM on August 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

kirkaracha: If Clinton wins Iowa and Trump wins Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Ohio, Clinton wins.

New Mexico isn't competitive, which is reassuring, because the local TV reporters are kind of rubbish tonight. "Hillary Clinton says she can improve the economy, but the Republican candidate, Donald Trump, disagrees." Gee, thanks for that balanced coverage.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:43 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

also his dissertation on metternich was fascinating. but the dude's still a creep.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:45 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean I guess the point is that on the whole Kissinger's spent his time on this godforsaken planet making it worse. The omelet he made was def not worth the eggs he cracked to make it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:49 PM on August 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

for reals though the book he wrote about Metternich was some captivating — though at times you could sort of tell that he wanted to be done with writing for the day and go back to playing his favorite board game.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:53 PM on August 8, 2016

Qcubed, he organised the secret bombings in South East Asia of civilians who weren't at war. He's a war criminal who should be in jail, and I'm very surprised he hasn't been assassinated yet. He must have good personal security.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:54 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

New Mexico isn't competitive

Oh, I know! Just pointing out that Clinton would win if she wins Iowa even if Trump takes every other state the New York Times lists as competitive. She'll get most of them.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:55 PM on August 8, 2016

I mean, say what you want about the ethics of Henry Kissinger, at least he rocked his cameo in Steven Colbert's "Get Lucky" video.
"The best part with Kissinger is that Colbert's making that weird "jerking off in your face" dance move at him." -- mrgoat
posted by kirkaracha at 10:11 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

If Clinton wins Iowa and Trump wins Arizona, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, and Ohio, Clinton wins.

The NBC battleground has Clinton at 255, just on safe or heavily likely states. Sabato has 347 leaning Clinton. Absent a complete reversal in the basic election assumption, she's looking at stretch goals and how to ensure a wave election.

There's a non-zero chance she could win all of those. Plus maybe Missouri and Indiana. And that should be the Democrats' goal at this point. Trump's floor is something like 142 EC votes, winning only the high plains states, the unrepentant old confederacy, and Texas.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:20 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

But three months is a long time

It's sure gonna feel like it
posted by aubilenon at 10:42 PM on August 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

Look guys, I love this landslide porn as much as anyone.

Polls plus looks like polls only! Polls only looks like the now cast! The now sat looks like a ridiculous strip of blue and a few pixels of red!

Theres 3 months to go, but it's quite a thing to see compared with a couple of weeks back.
posted by Artw at 10:46 PM on August 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh, come on, a lungful of dragon. You really think Obama's endorsement is fundamentally equivalent to Kissinger's? Really?

No, but I think, unfortunately, we're in a grey area where we are probably past the point of being able to be upset at the prospects of a Kissinger endorsement. That's not so much a criticism of Hillary, Kissinger or Obama, but about our own complacency at our favored candidate getting a thumbs-up from a war criminal, whose actions have contributed to why the US is reviled globally, where he has contributed to foreign policy. I just think we do better voting with open eyes, I guess. Personal weakness.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:46 PM on August 8, 2016

Who is Clinton trying to win over by supporting Kissinger? What does she stand to lose?

Kissinger's going to come down on one side or the other because that's what he does: his career consists of making pronouncements on political subjects. A lot of people think of Kissinger as an elder statesman and I think it would be disastrous for Hillary if Kissinger endorsed Trump; the last thing she needs is an excuse for people to think that Trump can't be that bad. So by welcoming him, she neutralises him. That's the only benefit to her that I can see.
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:47 PM on August 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Kissinger endorsing Trump, though... I don't see him doing that unless a
there's something in it for him. But what would that be? He's too old to take a fast paced job like SecState, and I don't see Trump actually listening to him.

The ideal state would be Kissinger staying neutral, but no one can make that decision but Kissinger.

Maybe the people are clamoring "Dear Mr. Kissinger: your fellow Repub'cans would like to know how you’ll be voting" but I don't hear that where I am.
posted by dw at 11:12 PM on August 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Polls plus looks like polls only! Polls only looks like the now cast! The now sat looks like a ridiculous strip of blue and a few pixels of red!

This is good for bitcoin.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:19 PM on August 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Uh, also, like it or not but not everyone thinks Kissinger is a horrible war criminal. Like a substantial number of people (some relatively well educated in politics and 20th century history, and many others that aren't), think of Kissinger as an elder statesman. If Kissinger is someone's "bridge too far" in supporting Hillary Clinton then (a) they don't have very much perspective, or (b) they were going to find some other reason not to vote for Clinton. Given the risk of a Trump presidency -- I doubt HRC is taking anything for granted, poll numbers or not -- getting one more senior dude that many see as "reasonable" to endorse you doesn't have a lot of downside. Reasonable people who may not like him are also likely to swallow their distaste.
posted by R343L at 11:23 PM on August 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm sure that most people under 50 will think Kissinger is some sort of sexting app.
posted by Devonian at 11:51 PM on August 8, 2016 [39 favorites]

Devonian: but that's kind of my point. I think a large fraction of Americans are likely to hear the name "Kissinger" and have vaguely positive notions about him being a diplomat or something. It's just not much of anything other than maybe will get a little semi-positive press about how (yet another) conservative who doesn't think Trump would make a good president.
posted by R343L at 11:54 PM on August 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I trust Hills at this point. Whatever she thinks can get her closer to the Oval Office, I'm for it.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 12:07 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think I'm seeing a weird tendency to attribute genius to whoever's ahead in the polls.

I saw it when Trump was winning the Republican primary. A lot of people were talking about his brilliant strategy. I sat there wondering what they were talking about, because the guy looked like an ignoramus who got lucky from where I was sitting.

I see it now when people are talking about Clinton. It sounds like she's got a great organization and ground game, which is huge, but she is sometimes not the best in the world at speechmaking, debating, or interviewing. None of that matters much to me, because I'm a policy voter and she's a policy wonk with policies I 90%+ like, but it matters to a lot of people. Her current lead comes mostly from her opponent imploding while she (admitted wisely) lets him.

Will she crush Trump in the debates? Maybe. Maybe not. As has been pointed out upthread, policy wonk vs. ignoramus debates have not always gone great for the policy wonk. If he self-destructs on stage, great. But there's a good chance he won't. There's some nonzero chance that she will. And the expectations game is going to be miserably lopsided this year.

I'm taking nothing for granted this year. I hope that the debates either improve Clinton's standing or simply don't matter. But I wouldn't assume either one.
posted by kyrademon at 1:16 AM on August 9, 2016 [34 favorites]

This Kissinger thread is hilarious. If you say his name three times in the mirror...

Kissinger and the Clintons literally actually spend Christmas together. If he endorses he's endorsing her unless there's some realpolitik chess move in endorsing Trump that I'm too dim to see.
posted by dis_integration at 4:44 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Uh, also, like it or not but not everyone thinks Kissinger is a horrible war criminal. Like a substantial number of people (some relatively well educated in politics and 20th century history, and many others that aren't), think of Kissinger as an elder statesman.

I bet they're all Americans.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:57 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Putting on my pundit/oracle hat and I expect this to be the Republican McGovern moment. The electoral victory won't be as gaudy as 1972, 1980, 1984 but it will be bad. The Republican Solid South has been breached and while the great plains show no sign of moving towards blue the electoral votes required to be competitive simply aren't there.

Republicans have a default generic environment where they simply spot the Democrats close to 250+ solid electoral votes. This requires winning virtually all battleground states and going on the offense in Democratic states. This is a tall order during presidential election years and almost require scandal or recession to doom the Democrats.

Combined with the loss of values voter referendums to inspire GOTV efforts (gay marriage is no longer a winner, bathroom bills don't seem to be driving turnout, etc) and most of the GOTV strategies of the right are toast other than the evergreen abortion issue.

This is a bad environment for Republicans and Trump makes it way worse because the demographics they were most targeting with outreach efforts are getting pushed to the left by openly racist attacks.

Granted Republicans can be successful at other levels but losing the presidency for 12-16 years would be devastating due to the impact on the executive functionality and the judiciary.
posted by vuron at 4:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hannity ran segments trying to smear Khizr Khan and spread the "Hillary has parkinsons" meme tonight, which seems a bit out there even for his astoundingly low standards. If this keeps up he'll be well into Alex Jones territory before the election is over.

By October he'll be sitting behind his desk reading the ICD-10 codes straight from the manual in the hopes that something sticks.

"What about W56.09XA people? Initial encounter with a dolphin! Did that dolphin know about Benghazi? Can we trust someone who pals around with dolphins??" (takes another swig of Wild Turkey as terrified staffers look on, mentally updating their resumes)
posted by splen at 5:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

New: NBC/SurveyMonkey poll:

2-WAY
Clinton 51
Trump 41

4-WAY
Clinton 44
Trump 38
Johnson 10
Stein 4
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I bet they're all Americans.

Well, yes, but Americans make up a shockingly high number of voters in American elections, so...
posted by Mayor West at 5:02 AM on August 9, 2016 [54 favorites]

Peter Serafinowicz gives Donald Trump different voices.

Did I really need more reasons to love Serafinowicz?!
posted by winna at 5:18 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Kissinger was/is a horrible person but through the lens of the dominant paradigm of his time period of dominance over US Foriegn policy he and the other practitioners of Realpolitik were hardly out of the mainstream of thought in the US and in much of Europe.

US foriegn policy is typically governed under similar policies to this day. Yes there are elements of idealism in the rhetoric most of the time but when push comes to shove the US tends to push pragmatic goals in regards to foreign policy situations.

There are the obvious exceptions such as the less than pragmatic policies in regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict but those are unusual.
posted by vuron at 5:20 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary's a policy-wonk and kind of a square but you're forgetting one key fact. She's married to Bill Clinton. Forty years she's spent, arguing and debating with one of the great communicators of our age. I'd be willing to bet that she's won well over half of those arguments. Hillary Clinton, who sat through hours of excruciatingly stupid cross-examination by Congress over Benghazi, is going to own the debates. If Donald Trump isn't quaking in his boots, it's just more proof of his unbelievable idiocy.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:24 AM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

I tried to read Kissenger's Wikipedia article, in hopes of better understanding his specific crimes and contributions (why do some people I admire say he is monster, and other people I admire say he is a genius? What exactly was his role in Vietnam?), but I can tell it's been subject to some edit wars even without looking at the edit history. Wikipedia is not a good source for controversial subjects.

Now I've been looking around the internet for an hour, and in some ways I'm more confused than ever. I'm just gonna leave these links here because I don't relly have any conclusions, but these seem like relevant background... Salon magazine on Kissenger's "Genocidal Legacy"

This history from a professor at Yale tells a slightly different story about the bombing of Cambodia, places the blame more squarely on Nixon, while noting that it actually started under Johnson. It suggests escalated because we were trying to pull out of Vietnam in a hurry without surrendering all the territory we'd held.

Both articles above address the relationship between the bombing of Cambodia and drone strikes by Obama, and between Cambodia and Iraq, so some further context..

Obama's attempts to limit military intervention, against the foreign policy community consensus

Obama advisor Samantha Power once harshly criticized Kissenger, before going to the Red Socks game with him described in that Salon link and accepting an award from him...

Samantha Power once called Hillary Clinton "a monster" but later apologized.

It seems Samantha Power has sometimes been described as Kissinger's opposite, an idealist where he was a realist, but both seem to be "hawks" albeit with different goals -- military intervention in the service of humanitarian goals vs. in the service of American national interests. Power was "considered to have been a key figure in the Obama administration in persuading the president to intervene militarily in Libya"

The most prominent figures who oppose both Kissenger and Power, though, seem to be not "doves" but isolationists, like Trump, whose "America first" slogan recalls the foremost non-interventionist pressure group against the American entry into World War II. Who history does not remember kindly.

I don't know. What a mess.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:25 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

In conclusion, Kissinger is a man of contrasts.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

2-WAY
Clinton 51
Trump 41

4-WAY
Clinton 44
Trump 38
Johnson 10
Stein 4

Has FiveThirtyEight (or one of its contemporaries) done any longform analysis of what these 4-way numbers actually mean? Because in every election during which I've been of age, third-party candidates have polled between 3 and 10 percent all the way up until the election, but have never garnered more than 2 or 3% in the general. People wildly overstate their willingness to go third-party, especially after watching the Nader spectacle unfold in 2000, but the numbers get reported with a straight face, and then get incorporated into the models.
posted by Mayor West at 5:30 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has FiveThirtyEight (or one of its contemporaries) done any longform analysis of what these 4-way numbers actually mean? Because in every election during which I've been of age, third-party candidates have polled between 3 and 10 percent all the way up until the election, but have never garnered more than 2 or 3% in the general.

FWIW, FiveThirtyEight currently has Johnson with 7.8% in the nowcast and 5.3% in the polls-plus, which gives you an idea of how much they're discounting his current numbers. Of course that still doesn't capture the difference, if any, between what people say in today's polls and how they would vote today (which 538 may also be doing, but doesn't show up in outward-facing numbers).
posted by dfan at 5:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Okay, I give up - can someone please explain the reference to the wealthy Scotsman and the 1916 quarter?

Empress, the kicker to the story is that when he finally replaced the unique and incredibly valuable quarter he went to sell it and only then learned that the only person in the world wealthy enough to afford it - is himself.
posted by yhbc at 5:40 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Also, 538 says this about how their model handles third-party candidates:

Historically, third-party candidates tend to underperform their early polls. Essentially, some third-party voters may really be undecided voters using the third-party candidate as a placeholder. (Note that third-party candidates do not necessarily underperform their late polls. This is more of a concern in the summer and early fall.)
Therefore, early in the race, the polls-plus model will subtract some of the vote from the third-party candidate based on this pattern and reallocate it to undecided.

posted by dfan at 5:41 AM on August 9, 2016

>I bet they're all Americans.

Well, yes, but Americans make up a shockingly high number of voters in American elections, so...

Bloody foreigners, eh? Lots of keyboard warriors out there but how many of them actually bother to turn up on election day? #slacktivists
posted by modernnomad at 5:47 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mitch McConnell's Supreme Court Dilemm: If Republicans are looking for any way to separate themselves from Trump, moving on Garland would do the trick. "Congress is likely to be in session for a grand total of 20 days between now and the election, and it's clear that confirming Garland a vote is the only concrete, news-driving step that Republicans can take to separate themselves from Trump," a top Democratic Senate official says.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

The 538 predictions for DC made me smile this morning, so deep blue with Johnson showing a higher chance of winning than Trump.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

why do some people I admire say he is monster, and other people I admire say he is a genius?

Those are not mutually exclusive statements.

Kissinger's own accounts of what he did and why are enough to damn him.
posted by winna at 5:51 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Uh, also, like it or not but not everyone thinks Kissinger is a horrible war criminal. Like a substantial number of people (some relatively well educated in politics and 20th century history, and many others that aren't), think of Kissinger as an elder statesman. If Kissinger is someone's "bridge too far" in supporting Hillary Clinton then (a) they don't have very much perspective, or (b) they were going to find some other reason not to vote for Clinton. Given the risk of a Trump presidency -- I doubt HRC is taking anything for granted, poll numbers or not -- getting one more senior dude that many see as "reasonable" to endorse you doesn't have a lot of downside. Reasonable people who may not like him are also likely to swallow their distaste.

Amen. Ain't gonna let that stinkin' Kissinger turn me around.
posted by duffell at 6:06 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

But three months is a long time

And that’s when we’ll all need to stop, take a deep breath, and remember this moment.
posted by Groundhog Week at 6:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Mormons’ Distaste for Donald Trump Puts Utah Up for Grabs
posted by Artw at 6:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I suppose I should be glad that the news cycle has slowed down enough for us to discuss Vague-Possibility-Of-Kissinger-Endorsing-Gate in the Guy-No-One's-Heard-Of-Declares-Candidacy-In-August thread.
posted by kyrademon at 6:34 AM on August 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

Mormons’ Distaste for Donald Trump Puts Utah Up for Grabs

tl;dr: "After Trump's done with Muslims and Jews we're probably next"
posted by Talez at 6:38 AM on August 9, 2016

Mormons’ Distaste for Donald Trump Puts Utah Up for Grabs

The latest polls give Trump a 12 point lead. It is however Gary Johnson's best shot.
posted by Francis at 6:38 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I though W had put Kissinger in charge of the eventual Congressional 9/11 commission, but then I realized I must be out of my damned mind because that would just be too f*#%ing weird even for the Cheneydog. I mean, *record scratch* wh-whaaa?!

And you were there, MeFi! And you were there too MSM! /faints
posted by petebest at 6:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I thought the focus on Henry Kissinger was weird when Sanders brought it up in the debates, and I think it's weird now. Not a fan in the least, but he seems about as relevant to the current geopolitical situation as Captain Kangaroo.
posted by EarBucket at 7:00 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Why the New York Times has a foreign correspondent covering the US election.
posted by tavegyl at 7:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

The latest polls give Trump a 12 point lead. It is however Gary Johnson's best shot.

538 hates that polling outfit and gives them very bad marks. Better pollsters have it closer.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:19 AM on August 9, 2016

Not a fan in the least, but he seems about as relevant to the current geopolitical situation as Captain Kangaroo.

I think Kissinger is the result of a desperate search for an albatross to hang around Clinton's neck, since the other attempts appear to be failing spectacularly.
posted by Mooski at 7:20 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Henry Kissinger is a snake who spent his life sucking up to power and to evil and to powers of evil. There aint no frigin contrast about it. You can get a copy of Seymour Hersh Price of Power for one cent plus postage at Amazon. It is interesting and readable but it is one of those books you don't want to even pick up and glance at unless you have a strong stomach.
posted by bukvich at 7:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I can see it now. Trump will continue to become more and more unacceptable, and we will all see the worst qualities of ourselves in that orange manifestation implode before our very eyes. We will come to terms with the darkness in ourselves that sought to cultivate this monster, and we will all put our differences aside to achieve a common goal. Democrats and Republicans alike will come together in harmony to build a wall around Trump, and Mexico will insist on paying for it. We will then all live together and love each other in peace, racial tensions will disintegrate, and foreign relations will be the best they've ever been. And America will be Great Again™.

This is how you make America great again.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

That Utah is even within 12 points is freaking amazing. Yes there has been a big influx of all sorts of people into SLC in recent years to the point where if not a multicultural oasis it looks very different than it used to look but even if Clinton wins SLC it's unlikely that she could carry the rest of the state without a wholesale repudiation of Trump by the Mormons in the form of a protest vote for Johnson.

I don't expect Utah to become another one of the Desert Southwest blue states but the simple fact of the matter is that despite the traditionally conservative lean of the Southwest the influx of Latinx and younger voters into hot job markets has created a very significant shift in electoral politics.

The Oldies in Phoenix-Scottsdale are still holding firm in Arizona but their bastion is weakening as the death of older white voters is changing demographics in the Phoenix area. Of course there are always new retirees to replace the old ones but hopefully they are more centrist.

New Mexico is already solid blue, Colorado and Nevada are getting there. Utah will be the Red Fortress for the next generation at least but team Blue definitely looks like it's got Team Red in retreat.
posted by vuron at 7:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

By contrast, in a word association game, many people with very middle-of-the-road political views hear "Kissinger" and blurt "war criminal."

I'm pretty sure that many more voters have no idea who he is.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:27 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

I though W had put Kissinger in charge of the eventual Congressional 9/11 commission, but then I realized I must be out of my damned mind because that would just be too f*#%ing weird even for the Cheneydog. I mean, *record scratch* wh-whaaa?!

Yeah, Kissinger was W's first choice to head the 9/11 Commission. Most likely because he was Nixon's NSA, and then Secretary of State under Nixon and Ford. He resigned only a few weeks after accepting the post, when he realized he'd have to dissolve his private consulting business to prevent conflicts of interest.
posted by zarq at 7:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

PPP: Clinton leads in NC for first time since March

-69% of Trump voters think that if Hillary Clinton wins the election it will be because it was rigged, to only 16% who think it would be because she got more vote than Trump. More specifically 40% of Trump voters think that ACORN (which hasn't existed in years) will steal the election for Clinton. That shows the long staying power of GOP conspiracy theories.

-48% of Trump voters think that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton deserve the blame for Humayun Khan's death to 16% who absolve them and 36% who aren't sure one way or the other (Obama was in the Illinois Legislature when it happened.) Showing the extent to which Trump supporters buy into everything he says, 40% say his comments about the Khans last week were appropriate to only 22% who will grant that they were inappropriate. And 39% of Trump voters say they view the Khan family negatively, to just 11% who have a positive opinion of them.

-Even though Trump ended up admitting it didn't exist 47% of his voters say they saw the video of Iran collecting 400 million dollars from the United States to only 46% who say they didn't see the video. Showing the extent to which the ideas Trump floats and the coverage they get can overshadow the facts, even 25% of Clinton voters claim to have seen the nonexistent video.

-Trump said last week that Hillary Clinton is the devil, and 41% of Trump voters say they think she is indeed the devil to 42% who disagree with that sentiment and 17% who aren't sure one way or the other.

We've been writing for almost a year that there's a cult like aspect to Trump's supporters, where they'll go along with anything he says. Trump made some of his most outlandish claims and statements yet last week, but we continue to find that few in his support base disavow them.

The public as a whole is a different story though.

posted by zombieflanders at 7:31 AM on August 9, 2016 [40 favorites]

“I certainly don’t think it’s appropriate to start changing all of a sudden when you’ve been winning,” Trump told reporters this morning.
posted by EarBucket at 7:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think Kissinger is irrelevant. I think Kissinger is "Pax Americana" personified. Can we and should we enforce "peace" with military power? The Romans managed it for a while. If that is what America is doing, what means are justified by that end? Is it even possible to do that without killing civillians? And what happens if we stop trying to enforce that peace? And what is the value of "peace" here when it really means "only small wars" -- but no big ones, no WWIII or nuclear war..?

Is Henry Kissinger's a record of success because we never (yet) fought WWIII or faced nuclear armageddon, or a record of failure because of the horrible things we've done in all the "little" wars we fought instead?

I think we need to have that conversation. And I hope it doesn't hurt Clinton to have it now. I really, warmly admire her in many, many ways, and hope desperately that she beats Trump, and am contributing to her campaign and doing what I can to warn people about the dangers Trump presents. I think if anyone decides not to vote for Clinton because of her relationship with Kissinger they need to accept that they are responsible for helping to elect a man who wants to pull out of NATO because Putin can play him, to encourage nuclear proliferation, to "bomb the shit out of" ISIS, to take over oil fields, "take out their families," torture prisoners and abandon the Geneva conventions, feed the terrorist propaganda narrative that America hates Muslims, and wonder why we can't use nuclear weapons... Trump is not a "peace candidate" and we need to do everything we can to stop him from being elected. Full Stop.

But while I think we have no choice but to vote for Clinton under the circumstances, I am still not totally comfortable with her foreign policy either, and it seems fair (assuming we all agree we have to vote for her anyway) to talk about that.

I think Clinton is a big believer in Pax Americana. With all that entails. Drone strikes and Henry Kissinger and all of it.

And I think Trump wants to withdraw from the world stage and let anybody who wants nuclear weapons have them, let anyone who wants to invade their neighbors do it, as long as they leave us alone.

And NEITHER of these visions makes moral sense to me. But I'm not sure what the third option is.

And I want to talk about it. I really, really wrestle with these questions, and I want to hear the opinions of the smart, confident people of Metafilter who I respect. I want to hear the criticisms and the defenses.

But we all still have to vote for Hillary Clinton, regardless. That's just a given.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [30 favorites]

I consider myself more aware of politics than a lot of my peers (mid thirties, college educated, work in tech) and I don't really know who Kissinger is or what he represents. I think the main message my friends (who I am pretty sure are all voting for Clinton) will think "Hmm seems like another person who was supposed to endorse Republican is endorsing Hillary instead."
posted by like_neon at 7:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

40% of Trump voters think that ACORN (which hasn't existed in years) will steal the election for Clinton.

ACORN's ability to rig the election despite their lack of existence is just further evidence of their evil genius.
posted by diogenes at 7:39 AM on August 9, 2016 [46 favorites]

> "'I certainly don’t think it’s appropriate to start changing all of a sudden when you’ve been winning,' Trump told reporters this morning."

From the article: "But while a wave of recent public polls have shown Trump trailing Hillary Clinton by double digits, the Manhattan billionaire said his campaign’s internal polling paints a rosier picture ..."

Just like his earlier stated plan to wait until the fall and then roll out a massive ad blitz, this is another comment made by losers with losing campaigns.

I'm always astonished that there's anyone who still says these kinds of things without realizing what they reveal.
posted by kyrademon at 7:40 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think Kissinger is the result of a desperate search for an albatross to hang around Clinton's neck, since the other attempts appear to be failing spectacularly.

It's been reported by multiple outlets that her campaign has reached out to former Secretaries of State, including Rice, Baker, Shultz and Kissinger. That fits what we know -- they're definitely interested in endorsements and support from prominent Republicans who can't stomach Trump.

The Clintons and Kissingers are reportedly social friends.
posted by zarq at 7:41 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

How liberals helped enable the rise of Trump

Donald Trump is the Republican presidential nominee. He was chosen by Republican voters in Republican primaries, and then backed by Republican elites at the Republican National Convention. And less proximally, but no less obviously, much of his rise is the direct result of the Republican Party's behavior and decisions over the last several years.

But Trump is about much more than the GOP.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Religion Dispatches interview with historian Darren Grem, author of The Blessings of Business: How Corporations Shaped Conservative Christianity:

Evangelical Trump fandom is no deviation:

We also have to wrestle with what evangelicalism actually was and remains, which is a religious identity shaped by money, marketing, corporate power, corporate executives, and private-sector places and spaces.

Indeed, places and people typically deemed “secular” or “non-evangelical” were also the means by which the evangelical sense of “the religious” was made. Detailing evangelical activities in the business world reveals the porous boundaries around a modern faith that—especially in journalistic treatments—typically appears as anti-modern or reactionary. Resistance to change is a part of the story, to be sure. But when taking account of its friendliness toward business, conservative evangelicalism emerges as a proactive, pragmatic faith.

Its practitioners were savvy and strategic, welcoming a variety of ideas from what they certainly saw as “outside” their world (from reformist progressivism to positive thinking to ecumenical pluralism) when constructing their visions for what it meant to live, think and work in a nation of corporations.

This insight should help to contextualize the present with the past, especially in this election year. White conservative evangelical fandom for a tycoon and top-down authoritarian such as Donald Trump is hardly out of step with how previous born-again Americans wooed business elites who seemed the best champions for their social, economic and political aspirations.

posted by palindromic at 7:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hasn't the Trump campaign indicated a dismissal of the need for internal polling in the past? Suddenly they are dependent on internal polls that paint a different picture than the public polling.

Unfortunately while internal polling can be extremely useful especially in situations where public polling is extremely infrequent or is only done by extremely small polling outfits with dubious reputations you need to have some damned good reasons to discount public polling if the poll is relatively fresh and is indicating similar trend lines to just about every other poll. It's possible that the poll in NC is an outlier but the statistical improbability of every current state poll that shows crumbling support for Trump is not a good thing for Trump.

The reality is that the perception has already set in based upon the craptacular RNC and the WTFuckery of the Khan debacle that Trump is a loser and a loose cannon. That's going to require a very compelling Trump Comeback manufactured narrative to undo. When late night talk show hosts are more or less devoting large segments of time to handle your daily gaffes and blunders that means the media smells blood.

The media were willing to promote a false "Romney Comeback" narrative 4 years ago even though the polling showed a solid trend line but I'm not sure they are going to go with that this year because frankly it provides viewership to watch the flaming 20 car pileup that is the Trump campaign so you don't even need to go with the typical horse race narrative.
posted by vuron at 7:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm an old school test kernels and greasy brown paper bag man and this election has made me sick of popcorn. Make it stop!
posted by whuppy at 7:52 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hasn't the Trump campaign indicated a dismissal of the need for internal polling in the past? Suddenly they are dependent on internal polls that paint a different picture than the public polling.

It's entirely possible that when Trump refers to internal polling, he means "how I, Donald Trump, feel the election is going for me today."
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:53 AM on August 9, 2016 [51 favorites]

Hasn't the Trump campaign indicated a dismissal of the need for internal polling in the past? Suddenly they are dependent on internal polls that paint a different picture than the public polling.

You misunderstood -- when Trump said "Internal polls" he meant the ones inside his own head. (Current results: Trump 105%, Lyin' Hillary Clinton 0%)
posted by mmoncur at 7:55 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

How liberals helped enable the rise of Trump

I enjoy this genre of nonsense much more than I should, because it's always so desperate and pleading. We could have had Ted Cruz if you just eased up in the political correctness, guys!
posted by Artw at 7:55 AM on August 9, 2016 [63 favorites]

And NEITHER of these visions makes moral sense to me. But I'm not sure what the third option is.

That's the thing, though, right? How would we know if we were in the best possible timeline? How can we possibly evaluate that Pax Americana calculus without access to the information that goes into those decisions? Without knowing what the alternatives are?

I think any conversation about these things (and I'm including things like the TPP here) is very much hampered by the fact that there are only a handful of people on the planet with access to all the relevant information. We simply can't evaluate them as a whole. This is why we have representative democracy right?

So we're left discussing philosophical abstractions, rather than the particulars of a given situation, and I feel like anyone who's ever had to try to apply an abstract model to a real world situation knows how much bullshit that is.

I don't know. Honestly. I do think that there's no such thing as a neutral position for us--we are the world super power, whether we like it or not, and a choice for inaction is also a choice (sometimes with monstrous consequences). Our existence in the geopolitical sphere alters it.

I do think in that context that someone with Kissinger's skills -- whatever his moral failings, he has been a remarkably successful negotiator, right? -- is best seen as a tool. How the President uses that tool is up to them.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:55 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Let's be fair, Trump's polling isn't just what's inside his own head, he is culling it from his Twitter replies. Same place where he finds those weird nuggets of fiction that he "read" that "people are talking about."
posted by gatorae at 7:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's entirely possible that when Trump refers to internal polling, he means "how I, Donald Trump, feel the election is going for me today."

Makes sense. Trump - I'm worth whatever I feel.

TRUMP: My net worth fluctuates, and it goes up and down with the markets and with attitudes and with feelings, even my own feelings, but I try.

CERESNEY: Let me just understand that a little. You said your net worth goes up and down based upon your own feelings?

TRUMP: Yes, even my own feelings, as to where the world is, where the world is going, and that can change rapidly from day to day ...
posted by chris24 at 8:00 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Please let Trump keep talking like this until election day: No Pivot Here: Trump Asks, Why Would I Tone It Down When I'm 'Winning?'

"I think that you know my temperament has gotten me here. I've always had a good temperament and it's gotten me here," Trump said in an interview with Fox Business, according to a transcript of the appearance. "I certainly don't think it is appropriate to start changing all of a sudden when you have been winning."

posted by murphy slaw at 8:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Things I note about that interview: Trump takes the word "temperament" away from his critics and waves it like an amulet. I wonder what words pundits could force into his speech if they set their minds to it.

Trump's mind divides the world into "winning" and "losing", with no possible middle ground, and since he doesn't *feel* like he's losing, the only possible conclusion is that he is winning.

The more ominous read on this is "I'm winning, any polls that show otherwise are rigged, so if I don't win on election day, it is plain that massive fraud has occurred." Part of me suspects that Trump actually believes this.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:05 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

we're going to see all sorts of Monday-morning quarterbacking about how Hillary was too shrill/emotional/unemotional/bitchy/direct/indirect/talked circularly/concentrated on things that didn't matter/didn't concentrate enough/concentrated too much on one point/was too egg-heady/used too many fancy words/didn't sound smart enough/looked ugly, and do you want someone like that, or someone like our boy Trump who's reg'lar folk like us?

You forgot "sighed."

(For the benefit of those who missed this glorious moment in American journalism, the media took Gore's sighs not as an indicator that George W. Bush was spouting nonsense but as indication that he wasn't a regular guy you'd want to have a beer with. That's right, they penalized him for being more knowledgable and better prepared than Bush.

That said, I don't think Trump is capable of Bush's folksy charm, shallow and phony as it was, and the "Trump is just making things up as he goes along" narrative is, in the immortal words of pundit Cokie Roberts, "out there," so I suspect Clinton will benefit more from the debates despite the press' bias against her.)
posted by Gelatin at 8:12 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

I do think in that context that someone with Kissinger's skills -- whatever his moral failings, he has been a remarkably successful negotiator, right? -- is best seen as a tool. How the President uses that tool is up to them.

Whatever his moral failings, indeed.

This seems like rather awful logic to me - should Clinton woo everyone, no matter how vile or problematic, as long as they have some useful skill? Shouldn't we hope that she's better than that? And no, this isn't some sort of purity test or fluffy fantasy world politics, it's morality, which is important, no matter that Trump has frigging abandoned it. She doesn't need him. I doubt he'll swing a single vote her way if none of the other defections have. It's just spitting on the many dead that Kissinger left behind him wantonly and with a carelessness that is vile to read about.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 8:12 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

...should Clinton woo everyone, no matter how vile or problematic, as long as they have some useful skill?

Say what you will about him, but Charles Manson has demonstrated some great organizational skills.
posted by Floydd at 8:15 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

> Trump responded to Hillary Clinton's criticism that his economic policy team is loyal to special interests and just composed of "six guys named Steve" by saying more names for his advisory team would be announced in coming weeks.

Starting a pool for how many more "Steves" we'll have. At least a brace, maybe a hattrick if we're really lucky.
posted by Tevin at 8:16 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

You know, I know a lot of people are kind of cheering about the fracturing of the GOP, but ...

Sometimes people on the right have ideas that are excellent.

Name one -- seriously.
posted by JackFlash at 8:17 AM on August 9, 2016

JackFlash - Obamacare is largely based on what Romney did in MA, right? There's lots wrong with Romeny, but credit where credit is due?
posted by Sweetdefenestration at 8:22 AM on August 9, 2016

Explicitly pointing out that this is parody, because the arguments are all real enough: The Evangelical Case for Voting for David Duke:

As I said, I can understand why my evangelical friends would choose not to support Duke. But based on my extensive years studying Christian ethics I disagree. Since Duke has announced his candidacy for the senate race in Louisiana, I think it is a morally good choice to support David Duke.

Now, I know some of you will be wondering how an evangelical like myself could support a self-described white supremacist and neo-Nazi like Duke. How could someone who has previously expressed such concern about the moral qualifications of office holders suddenly turn a blind eye to Duke’s considerable failings? Am I simply sacrificing all of my credibility as a public Christian in order to seize a final dying chance at political power such that I’m willing to even support a charlatan who has so far furnished us with no credible reasons to think he will fulfill his promises to my constituency?

No, the truth is that I have credible reason to believe that Duke is a baby Christian. In fact, a friend of mine who pastors a large church in Houston, which is located quite close to Duke’s home state of Louisiana, has given me his personal assurance that Duke prayed the sinner’s prayer with him recently.

posted by palindromic at 8:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump's internal polling probably consists of him asking his family and friends business associates cronies if they're planning on voting for him.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:23 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

‘Sesame Street’ parodied Donald Trump in sketch 10 years ago

I enjoy this genre of nonsense much more than I should, because it's always so desperate and pleading.

I should make a collection.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:25 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

47% of his voters say they saw the video of Iran collecting 400 million dollars from the United States to only 46% who say they didn't see the video.

And this is something even Trump has said didn't happen.

That's 20 percent of all voters buying into consensual high fantasy, and why con artist will remain a serious career option for any ambitious young person well into the future.
posted by Devonian at 8:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

okay, i really want to know - why do republicans push so hard on the goddamn estate tax? it's an issue that affects a tiny % of voters and i can't believe it moves the needle for anyone else even if they call it the "death tax" or "grave robbing" or "necrotaxation" or whatever is the current formulation.

Okay, like, I'm never ever going to vote for Trump even if he promises me ponies and cake, but he's trying to attract people like me. I find taxation on land and valuables not just a bad idea, but actually immoral from my ethical POV. (I understand other people have different ethical systems and they're not bad people for believing in this). It doesn't matter to me whether or not it's going to affect me - I think it's morally wrong to force children to sell the things someone has spent a lifetime building (land, valuables) in order to pay the government. This is just a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives like me - I believe in accumulating land and valuables to help the family in the future and make the lives of children easier. I don't believe that forcibly breaking up land accumulation is a thing the government should have an interest in.

In an election between two people who are relatively similar, the guy who promises a scaling back of the estate tax - and more broadly, who believes in the accumulation of wealth for families - is going to matter to me. I generally think generationally - not, how will this policy matter to me, but how will this policy matter to my kids and grandkids and great grandkids.

However, for me, the candidate being an actual proto-fascist is non-negotiable. It doesn't matter how much land he is going to let me and my kids acquire if he's a monster.
posted by corb at 8:27 AM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

One old school right wing idea that seems to be enjoying a renaissance at least in some circles is the idea of implementing a universal basic income.

While I don't necessarily agree with some of the underlying assumptions of the initial proponents like the idea that basically all government programs result in undesirable economic distortions due to the lack of flexibility inherent in government programs there are some potential valuable concepts that can be applied from the idea of implementing a universal basic income as a remedy for some long standing social issues.
posted by vuron at 8:27 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Other ideas from the right which weren't terribad.
- Eisenhower Interstate System

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

good ideas from the right:
the 13th amendment wasn't bad
kidding!
posted by murphy slaw at 8:29 AM on August 9, 2016

"'I certainly don’t think it’s appropriate to start changing all of a sudden when you’ve been winning,' Trump told reporters this morning."

I read this with disbelief this morning: WaPo: Donald Trump still hasn’t figured out the ground game

Here is what is going on in Cincinnati, Ohio

Trump has a staffer in the region, the Enquirer reports -- a woman named Missy Walters who has been with the Trump campaign since January. That "ground zero" doesn't appear to have been her work, though. According to a campaign official, it's a function of enthusiastic volunteers -- volunteers filling a vacuum left by the Trump campaign's non-existent outreach operation on the ground in the region.

It's not clear where Trump's team is running anything of any scale. The campaign continues to trail Hillary Clinton's staff head-count by a wide margin. Trump has regularly argued that his low spending on staff saves him money, but organizing in battleground states requires staff in those states. The internet allows campaigns to coordinate phone calling remotely, but no one has yet figured out how to knock on a voter's door over the web. Volunteers can run phone banks or precinct walks, but relying on unpaid staff to do that effectively is risky.

What is he doing with all of that money he raised last month? He isn't spending it on staff, he isn't spending it on ads, and he sure isn't spending it on a GOTV strategy.

Speaking of the staff, not only is his numbers minuscule in comparison to Clinton's, they all seem to be incredibly incompetent. For example, yesterday speaking in front of the Detroit Economic Club on Monday his prepared speech stated that Detroit is a city controlled by Democrats at "every level." Michigan has a Republican Governor and a Republican controlled House and Senate. A quick Google would have not gone amiss when you are writing a speech that will be read and parsed Nation-wide. Are his speech writers that incompetent, that lazy, or are they so underpaid they don't give a shit?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

good ideas from the right:
the 13th amendment wasn't bad
kidding!

Just remember that any time somebody starts talking about how the GOP is the "party of Lincoln" that they disavow pretty much everything he did. Or as Charlie Pierce says:

Jesus H. Christ on a biscuit, can we stop with the Party of Lincoln crapola?

You forfeited the right to that title the moment that Harry Dent sat down to write a memo. You are now the Party of Calhoun, the party of voter suppression. Hell, I don't know what "constitutional conservatism" even means any more, except to note that it seems to involve radical Tentherism and a desire to roll back the effects of Amendments 13-15.

posted by zombieflanders at 8:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

> What is he doing with all of that money he raised last month? He isn't spending it on staff, he isn't spending it on ads, and he sure isn't spending it on a GOTV strategy.

I think it might start with a T and end with a rump?
Good hair like that isn't cheap, you know.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just remember that any time somebody starts talking about how the GOP is the "party of Lincoln" that they disavow pretty much everything he did.

thats_the_joke.gif
posted by murphy slaw at 8:37 AM on August 9, 2016

(oh by the way on a total sidenote because I think all the people are here, I am slow on the enhattening but it is still happening)
posted by corb at 8:37 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

What is he doing with all of that money he raised last month?

Trump steaks.
posted by Artw at 8:37 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Even if you disagree with the concept of taxing private property which is definitely out there even among conservatives corb you have to admit that there are negative impacts of allowing incredible accumulation of wealth by pre-existing wealthy people. The truism that money attracts money is definitely true and by allowing for unchecked gathering of wealth in the hands of the elite you are not just perpetuating but reinforcing wealth built on the exploitation of others.

For instance if a family was wealthy from the exploitation of slaves in the plantation system they should be expected to continue to collect assets without taxation the remainder of their existence? Doesn't that create the very systems of nobility that the founding fathers were so adamant on not replicating?

No the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few especially over successive generations has been correctly seen as corrosive to the functioning of our democracy and something to be avoided. If anything the current low rates of taxation on inherited wealth should be reversed.

The other major reason for taxation of private property is that accumulated wealth in the form of large hoards is extremely nonproductive from an economic perspective. Our economy is largely built around consumption (do not get me started) but money collecting dust in ancestral homes and moldy bank vaults is far less productive than money that is continually churning through the economy in a series of constant interactions.
posted by vuron at 8:38 AM on August 9, 2016 [54 favorites]

That would require the speech writer to stop, doubt that he had something less than perfect knowledge of what he was talking about, and then be confident enough in himself (I was going to use a non-gendered pronoun here but it's Trump) to actually go and check.

Critical thinking and self-doubt are things that Trump and his supporters seem to simply lack. It's the only reason I can find to explain why otherwise nice people still support him. They know what the right position is and no amount of "facts" or "reality" will divert them from it.

This line of thinking always leads me to ask myself if I exhibit that same kind of entrenched thinking that they do, just from a liberal perspective (and with in-person debates, regrettably, I do) but when I'm on my own pondering my world-view I realize that if I was like that, I wouldn't even be asking myself that question.
posted by VTX at 8:41 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sometimes people on the right have ideas that are excellent.

Name one -- seriously.

The Carbon Tax.

Cap & Trade.
posted by ocschwar at 8:42 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Obamacare is largely based on what Romney did in MA, right? There's lots wrong with Romeny, but credit where credit is due?

Credit for what. Obamacare is a horribly compromised plan that Obama was forced to offer in the mistaken idea that Republicans would accept it because it was a "Republican idea." Yet not one single Republican voted for it. And Republicans have voted 60 times to repeal it. So where are the good Republican ideas about healthcare?

- rapprochement with China
- SALT 1/2
- Eisenhower Interstate System

When you have to reach back more than half a century you are just proving my point. Republicans haven't had a single good idea on any substantive public policy since before Ronald Reagan.

Why are the NeverTrumpers agonizing that they " feel like they are betraying everything they believe in by voting Clinton." If it isn't the racism, then why do they cling to the Republican Party like a religious cult they can't shake. It certainly isn't because of their great policy ideas.
posted by JackFlash at 8:44 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

To be clear, I am okay with taxing actual money in bank vaults and stocks and things. What gets me all maddened is when someone dies with a gorgeous art collection that they loved dearly and wanted to pass on to their kids which has increased in value and not a lot of cash money, so the art collection has to be broken up and sold in order to pay the tax on the art collection. Or especially when someone has this wonderful family estate but is cash-poor, so they have to figure out how to sell off part of the land in order to pay the tax.
posted by corb at 8:45 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

The carbon tax was most definitely not an idea from the right, and to the extent that cap & trade can be called an idea from the right, it's mainly because they wanted minimal actual regulation with maximal profit for large corporations.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:46 AM on August 9, 2016

The EPA was a good idea from the right.

I think for this discussion to mean anything, we should limit it to good ideas from the contemporary right. Much more challenging that way!
posted by notyou at 8:46 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

"How liberals helped enable the rise of Trump" feels like a rehash of "How Paul Krugman Made Donald Trump Possible." Both say that liberals "cried wolf" about such sane and down-to-earth candidates like George W. Bush, McCain, and Romney, thus making it hard to make such arguments when an "actual" dangerous person like Trump comes along. Such a line of reasoning requires ignoring the truly odious policies advocated by earlier GOP candidates who had the good graces not to seem like megalomaniacal windbags.
posted by dhens at 8:54 AM on August 9, 2016 [33 favorites]

TLDR: McCain, Romney et al. were dangerous, Trump is super mega double-secret dangerous.
posted by dhens at 8:55 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump Exposes Trump (h/t: BoingBoing)
posted by zombieflanders at 8:56 AM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

So where are the good Republican ideas about healthcare?

Does this count?
posted by Groundhog Week at 8:57 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

The EPA was a good idea from the right.

The National Environmental Policy Act, which led to the establishment of the EPA a few months later, was written by Democrat Henry Jackson. Environmentalism was hardly a right wing cause. Spiro Agnew made sport of attacking environmentalists.

And of course that was 45 years ago, an entirely different Republican Party, just a few years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act and before the cementing of the Southern Strategy.
posted by JackFlash at 9:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

corb, how often does that actually happen though? And if the estate is worth a lot of money but there's no cash in hand, is the public interest actually better served by having the art sit in a private mansion somewhere, or being sold off, often to large museum collections, where it can actually be viewed by people who aren't wealthy elites?

Ditto for land; are we to retain an idea of the commons, or is everything to be parceled up and fenced in?
posted by aspersioncast at 9:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

What gets me all maddened is when someone dies with a gorgeous art collection that they loved dearly and wanted to pass on to their kids which has increased in value and not a lot of cash money, so the art collection has to be broken up and sold in order to pay the tax on the art collection.

Ok Corb, I can speak to this.

When you have people who are very fortunate to accumulate massive amounts of wealth in their lifetime and they decide to spend it buying up artwork, that is fine-- great even. But when that artwork stays in the family and only guests get to see it, then that is a tragedy. Great Art created for the world should never remain in families for generations. One really wonderful thing that happened when Great Britain started taxing their aristocrats heavily and the family estates had to be restructured or turned to the public was that many great masterpieces that had been seen only by a few, very lucky individuals were sold and bought by museums so that they can be shared and appreciated by anyone with an interest.

What if one very wealthy guy bought up all the Beatles songs and didn't allow anyone to play them but only played them in the privacy of his home? (I know this isn't possible, I'm just using this as an hypothetical question.) Would that be a right and fair thing? Do you think his family should be the only ones to enjoy the Beatles' oeuvre for hundreds of years? Or what if there was only one copy of Hamlet which was in the hands of one family and they passed it down from family member to family member but never let the public read it, would that be fair?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:03 AM on August 9, 2016 [42 favorites]

The contemporary right doesn't have much it's for. It has lots of things it's against, changes it wants to reverse, changes it wants to prevent. Maybe that's part of why it's hard to point to any 'good ideas,' if 'good ideas' carries with it an implication of new ideas.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:03 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sometimes people on the right have ideas that are excellent.

Name one -- seriously.

The Earned Income Tax Credit.
posted by dw at 9:05 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

No Pivot Here: Trump Asks, Why Would I Tone It Down When I'm 'Winning?'

Yuuup. And he is winning, according to his own metric of "Getting my ego fed, flying around and bellowing nonsense at adoring crowds and being on TV a lot."

It's not like he cares about the GOP. He hasn't been involved in it for very long. He used to be a Democratic Party member and a Reform Party member. He could give a shit about the GOP. He seems barely aware of their platform, or what it even means for a party to have a platform.

He's having the time of his life. This is like Spring Break for him.
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:05 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Okay, well, when you specify it like that... but it feels like you moved the goalpost rather obviously here.

Next you will tell me that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican. The question is why NeverTrumpers are still clinging to the Republican Party today, when the Party hasn't had any good ideas for half a century.
posted by JackFlash at 9:05 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah no exempting whole classes of assets from inheritance taxes would make for massive distortions in the markets as all sorts of people would park assets in the form of artistic goods and land and so forth. The art market is already distorted like crazy because of a variety of factors but that would be an awful idea. Same with exempting real estate.

Simply put if your grandfather assembled a massive art collection or a massive estate you by no means are entitled to inherit that without taxation. If you want to make the art collection stay intact then donate to an institution so that the public can enjoy it.

Encouraging the wealthy to donate a portion of their estate to the benefit of all of humanity rather than the enrichment of a small number of people is well established in this country and foundations typically form the bulk of charitable giving in many cases.

Exempting church property from taxation already creates massive distortions in many local economies (how many mefites live close to a large established church that has massive amount of assets but an old and greying number of congregants and barely any social outreach?)
posted by vuron at 9:07 AM on August 9, 2016 [32 favorites]

-Trump said last week that Hillary Clinton is the devil, and 41% of Trump voters say they think she is indeed the devil to 42% who disagree with that sentiment and 17% who aren't sure one way or the other.

I can honestly say that I'm not sure whether or not Hillary Clinton is literally Satan, but I'm still voting for her.

And if corb's hypothetical art collection has cultural value beyond its financial worth, it should be confiscated and placed in a museum for the benefit of the public. Put up a nice plaque to recognize the efforts of the person who accumulated it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:08 AM on August 9, 2016

Guys, guys you're forgetting Iraq War I, starring Poppy Bush, and Iraq War II: The Befuckening, starring G.W. Bush and a young Dickard Cheney as "Tank".

The Right is just compacted with fantastical ideas. Oh and Freedom Fries, right? Man I could eat a ton of those little crispy things.
posted by petebest at 9:09 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

How hard is it really to put your glorious estate and massive horde of treasure into some kind of trust or other instrument, then rent it out to yourself, or hide it behind some kind of private club membership, etc. anyway? If you want your family to be an undying legal entity, go ahead and make it an undying legal entity.
posted by nom de poop at 9:10 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

How liberals helped enable the rise of Trump

"Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry is a writer and fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. His writing has appeared at Forbes, The Atlantic, First Things, Commentary Magazine, The Daily Beast, The Federalist, Quartz, and other places."

"I heard that Commentary and Dissent had merged to form Dysentery."

Speaking of Kissinger, 40 years ago today, Nixon resigned the Presidency. Curiously, this morning, William Ruckelshaus, Nixon's first EPA Administrator and, in his later position as Deputy Attorney General, one of the men fired in the Saturday Night Massacre for his refusal to dismiss the Watergate Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox, endorsed Clinton.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:10 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Matt Taibbi: A Republican Workers' Party? Democratic incompetence has made the previously unthinkable possible: Republicans are reimagining themselves as a labor party

Democracy Now: Matt Taibbi: Trump's All White Male Economic Team Includes "Financial Crisis Villain" John Paulson

Matt Taibbi on Libor, Cartel-Style Finance & How Failure to Fix Wall St. Has Propelled Trump's Rise
posted by homunculus at 9:23 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

The carbon tax was most definitely not an idea from the right, and to the extent that cap & trade can be called an idea from the right, it's mainly because they wanted minimal actual regulation with maximal profit for large corporations.

The right wing has policy people, it has politics people, and it has political theater people.

Both cap&trade and the carbon tax came from economists who were decidedly right wing policy wonks.

The political mercenaries, meanwhile, indeed only cared about these ideas to the extent they might have to. That's how the process goes.
posted by ocschwar at 9:25 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I had a comment written about the art thing but it's too much of a derail to argue about here.

Nevermind, carry on.
posted by VTX at 9:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Earned Income Tax Credit.

The EITC was introduced by the Tax Reduction Act of 1975. It is written and sponsored by Democrat Albert Ullman of Oregon. There has been a some Republican support for it over the years as a strategy of reducing overall welfare spending, but it has been Democrats that have pushed and prodded the Republicans on the EITC.
posted by JackFlash at 9:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

Regarding the accumulation of land specifically, and the estate tax, it's perhaps worth noting that very early in the history of the common law it became necessary to curtail the growth and maintenance of estates, evasion of their taxation on death, and the attempts to maintain them in perpetuity through restraints on alienation, which was bad for the state (the Crown, at the time) and the rest of society, and eventually became inconvenient even for the inheriting landholders. A huge amount of basic property law, which was the bulk of the early common law, was developed because of these issues.

Thus, the Rule Against Perpetuities, the Doctrine of Worthier Title, the Rule in Shelly's Case and so forth.

This is a basic concern that arises early in any property system that allows ownership of land and its inheritance. Especially in any society that wants to think of itself as an egalitarian, democratic meritocracy and not, say, a inter-generational oligarchy.

As the old saying in real estate goes, 'they're not making any more of it.' But we're still making more humans.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

if corb's hypothetical art collection has cultural value beyond its financial worth, it should be confiscated and placed in a museum for the benefit of the public.

I had responded to the initial question because I had hoped to explain something that a fellow mefite said they had difficulty understanding - not because I wanted to start an argument about What Is Better. I know that people who believe in liberal values often do not share what are ultimately very conservative ones - that they fall harder on the "assuring the public good at the expense of the private good" scale. It is neither my intention nor desire to convince you that your way is wrong.

If you want to understand why Republicans, or at least why conservatives like me think a certain way, I am more than happy to help. I am desperately sad over what seems like enormous gulfs of understanding in this country that we can't get over and that produce horrible election nightmares like the one we are experiencing. But I see a strong difference between trying to understand each other so that we can understand how we are divided, and just fighting about random political stances in the already enormous election thread.
posted by corb at 9:27 AM on August 9, 2016 [77 favorites]

As always, if anyone feels like they want to talk about said political stances in greater detail, or wants to hear a specific response to their query, my memail is open and I am always happy to hear from folk.
posted by corb at 9:29 AM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

What is he doing with all of that money he raised last month? He isn't spending it on staff, he isn't spending it on ads, and he sure isn't spending it on a GOTV strategy.

10% of it is the campaign paying Trump to get Trump home by bedtime every night. Trump's HQ is in Trump Tower paying Manhattan real estate rates (Hillary is in Brooklyn where office space is cheaper). He's also spending a third of his money on media. He's not actually getting any ad buys or anything like that with that money, it looks like purely design and consulting work.
posted by Talez at 9:29 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Talez, where are you getting those numbers from? I'd be very interested in looking at them.
posted by kyrademon at 9:31 AM on August 9, 2016

What gets me all maddened is when someone dies with a gorgeous art collection that they loved dearly and wanted to pass on to their kids which has increased in value and not a lot of cash money, so the art collection has to be broken up and sold in order to pay the tax on the art collection. Or especially when someone has this wonderful family estate but is cash-poor, so they have to figure out how to sell off part of the land in order to pay the tax.

A lot of people are jumping on you for this, so I will preface this by saying that I am asking a sincere question. In fact, lemme ask it of the room - is there a way to actually find out how frequently this sort of thing actually happens?

Others before me have raised the issue of whether someone who has amassed a gorgeous art collection should keep it within the family, where no one but the family can see it. I'll offer the counterpoint that I once went to Hearst Castle, and there they claimed that Hearst felt that his privilege obligated him to collect as much art as he did - the very reason he was buying up 1st Century Roman temples and furniture from 14th-century European mansions was "I'm part of the privileged class that is able to afford going to Europe, whereas many others cannot - so I need to invest in bringing this stuff back to the United States so other people who CAN'T afford to go to Europe will be able to enjoy it."

On the other hand, though, Hearst didn't found a museum to house those artifacts; instead, he installed them in his own house, where it was still only a privileged few who could enjoy it anyway. Even today, it's $25.00 per person to get into the place, and when Hearst was alive the spot was probably invitation only. So Hearst's motivations may have been pure as all hell; but ultimately his actions worked against those motivations and ended up creating a tiny debt in the commons.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

He's also spending a third of his money on media. He's not actually getting any ad buys or anything like that with that money, it looks like purely design and consulting work.

If MeFi allowed images I'd simply add the first Trump Pence logo after that comment. But to second kyrademon, where do these numbers come from please? I'd love to see them!
posted by Francis at 9:34 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Guilford County, NC Board of Elections (which is made of of one Democrat and two Republicans) proposed a new early voting plan, as required by the recent district court ruling - but it was still pretty shitty. It cut the number of early voting sites in half from 2012. In particular it included no early voting sites at two of Greensboro's colleges, including N.C. A&T, the historically black college, and it had no Sunday voting.

The lone Democrat on the board had an alternative proposal, but it was going to be heard and voted on by the board in the middle of the day on a Monday, with no opportunity for public comment.

So hundreds of people showed up to protest this three-person meeting. And despite the fact that the Board still didn't allow for any official public comments, the Democrat's proposed plan passed. It actually includes more early voting sites and hours than the 2012 election had.

So why should you care?

Guilford County is the third most populous county in NC. It also leans Democratic, very much so in comparison to the rest of the state. Obama won 59.2% of the vote there in 2008 and 57.8% in 2012, and his victory in NC in 2008 was due to his overperformance in the handful of the most populous counties in NC, including Guilford County.

(Incidentally, Guilford County is also the site of the original Woolworth's sit-in.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:34 AM on August 9, 2016 [73 favorites]

An amusing result of these megathreads is that my favorited list sometimes show me who is catching up. (Hi, Tehhund!)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:34 AM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

when Hearst was alive the spot was probably invitation only

It was definitely invitation only. I clearly recall that being part of the anecdote about the butt-squirting patio benches. (Hearst liked to troll people in person, not just in print.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:35 AM on August 9, 2016

There has been a some Republican support for it over the years as a strategy of reducing overall welfare spending

Like, oh, Milton Friedman.

The GOP has a very love-hate relationship with the EITC, but most of its opposition comes from the simple-minded libertarians who don't understand how the EITC works to reduce welfare by not penalizing people with jobs for going off welfare. You talk to most standard-issue Republicans and they gladly support it. And the EITC exists because the alternative (basic income) wouldn't have made it through... a Democratic Congress in 1975... because it was too liberal.
posted by dw at 9:36 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

10% of it is the campaign paying Trump to get Trump home by bedtime every night.

This reminds me, I had been wondering exactly how a President Trump would behave in a natural disaster or large casualty event. Can you imagine him going to some tornado-flattened town and listening to devastated people who voted for him, who are begging for his help? Talking to local officials about what they need? Giving a talk to raise morale? And then flying right back to the rebranded Trump House at 1600 Pennsylvania?

Of course not. Trump probably doesn't imagine it, either; if he has, he means to farm it out to Pence. He might be in the mood to give a speech if there was a villain to blame. But otherwise, he would be completely incapable of one of the few acts of emotional labor that men in public life really do have to perform. I don't like to pretend to know what the Founders thought, or that it is always relevant to our modern nation, but I am certain they never imagined the Presidency held by a man who would not spend a single night away from home.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:39 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

This seems like rather awful logic to me - should Clinton woo everyone, no matter how vile or problematic, as long as they have some useful skill?

No, and this is a useless comparison. I didn't say "anyone" if they have a "useful" skill, because that would be stupid.

But the set of people with deep personal and historical knowledge of the global elites who make actual decisions around the world is very, very small. I see little reason to dismiss that knowledge because it comes from a moral monster. You're not obligated to do the monstrous things just because you get data from monster.

I'm much less comfortable with a president who does feel that way, honestly. I don't think you should, or can be, what we think of as a normal, moral human being to be able to wield the power and responsibility that resides in the Oval Office, and to think otherwise seems frankly childish. The drone program feels, deeply, like a moral monstrosity, but what is the alternative? That's not a rhetorical question; none of us know.

But someone has to be presented with those choices, and has to make them. I think anyone who dismisses data or experience or skills out of hand, because of their source, when faced with decisions of that magnitude, is probably unfit for office. I couldn't do it, but I'm not running for President.

I'm glad someone who listens is, though.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:43 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Incidentally, Guilford County is also the site of the original Woolworth's sit-in.

It's not at all incidental. The blood spilled in Greensboro by white supremacy and from PoC and their supporters is an ancient river that flows deep and fast.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:45 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I know this is a stupid derail and it'll serve me right if it's deleted, but we haven't yet implemented those merit badges for comments not posted, and it's marginally relevant, so ...

> What if one very wealthy guy bought up all the Beatles songs and didn't allow anyone to play them but only played them in the privacy of his home? (I know this isn't possible, I'm just using this as an hypothetical question.)

Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, the final album by the Wu-Tang Clan, is owned by Martin Shkreli, everyone's favorite pharma asshole, and has never been performed commercially.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Speaking of Trump's predilection towards sleeping at home, is there some kind of Trump Tracker map of his campaign stops somewhere? Not finding anything with a quick Google but my blood pressure can't take too deep a dive into these search results. Ever since I saw it pointed out a few weeks ago that he hasn't really left the east coast since the convention, I have been trying to keep an eye out to see how widely he's been travelling and it still seems to be limited.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:50 AM on August 9, 2016

Hillary may not be the best natural debater, but she's very smart and very competitive. She's also going to have the best coaching in the world going into the debates, and I think she'll be smart enough to losten to her coaches.

Yes, she's running a traditional, even somewhat boring campaign—she's mostly getting out of the way and letting Trump make his own mistakes, rather than competing with him for the media spotlight. She's focusing on the nuts and bolts of campaigning, on the mechanics of organizing and mobilizing her constituency in the places where it matters most. In today's ultra-polarized political climate, where turnout matters as much as or more than persuasion, I really think that's the right thing to do.

But in the Fall, when the debates kick off, I think her staff is going to try to get her to use that venue as an opportunity to showcase her qualities as an individual, to let us see some of the character attributes that will make her a great president. The debates are an opportunity to show her strength as a person—something particularly hard for her due to the handicap that sexism imposes on her—and the way she can do that is by appearing as a poised, confident, well-prepared, unflappable rock against which Trump can smash himself. It will give her an opportunity to directly repudiate his falsehoods, to contrast his childishness against her maturity, and to expose the xenophobia and fear that drives hus campaign. I expect to see him thoroughly crushed and deflated, or at least reduced to frothing incoherency. If I were her, I'd be warming up already.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Talez, where are you getting those numbers from? I'd be very interested in looking at them.

Open Secrets has a good disbursement summary.

Tag Air is Trump's private jet airline.
posted by Talez at 9:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

What if Clinton keeps Kissinger in a glass box prison and occasionally asks for his thoughts on matters of geopolitical significance on the grounds that hey, evil genius is still genius

He would dispense useful information and cryptic aphorisms interspersed with mockery
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:51 AM on August 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

Just gonna go out on a limb here and say "not using flying murder robots to kill people"

Okay, but weren't drones used because we didn't want to risk soldiers and pilots? It kind of became a monkey paw wish, where clearly less American military lives are at risk but people are still dying.

So, if the wish is now not to use flying murder robots to kill people, it's probably going to be monkey pawed into having flying robots scoop people up and throw them in hidden prisons away from public sight. WISH GRANTED!
posted by FJT at 9:51 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who would Team Hillary get to play Trump in mock debates?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:53 AM on August 9, 2016

Huh. So, largely unnoticed because it was in the same end-of-July interview where Trump slandered the Khans, Trump said he believes Romney lost because he released his tax returns. Which is ... deranged on so many levels.
posted by kyrademon at 9:53 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think it's morally wrong to force children to sell the things someone has spent a lifetime building (land, valuables) in order to pay the government.

In the American context, this is a fascinating and difficult topic.

As I've suggested here a few times, a huge amount of individual private property ownership in the USA begins with some kind of grant or subsidy from the state, whether it's a homestead or an underwritten mortgage or a tax incentive. After a few generations, the initial assistance is forgotten. Yes, the homesteading model was based upon granting something considered abundant (undeveloped land without title) in exchange for something scarcer: a willingness to settle and improve it. Yes, the GI Bill was a peace dividend and a reward for service. But it's all part of a grand American political mechanism to turn various groups of people into property owners, which you can only do when you literally appropriate -- that is, turn into property -- a vast continent that had supported an indigenous population without it being treated as property.

In that context, Jefferson's "the earth belongs in usufruct to the living" remains an astonishingly radical statement over 200 years after it was written, befitting someone from a newly-independent settler nation writing from revolutionary Paris while the old inherited hierarchies of wealth and power were being challenged around him. His argument that societies should govern in the interest of the living (as a whole) and not the dead -- and his objection to both inherited wealth and inherited indebtedness where it binds the living -- also extends to the generational binding powers of a constitution.
posted by holgate at 9:54 AM on August 9, 2016 [52 favorites]

Who would Team Hillary get to play Trump in mock debates?

Gotta be Bill, right?
posted by dersins at 9:56 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

What if Clinton keeps Kissinger in a glass box prison and occasionally asks for his thoughts on matters of geopolitical significance on the grounds that hey, evil genius is still genius

Nope. You're not gonna trick me into dignifying Kissinger by comparing him with Loki, even if I love the idea of Clinton baiting him into a sexist tirade that inadvertently reveals all the Republicans' evil plans.
posted by straight at 9:56 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, the final album by the Wu-Tang Clan, is owned by Martin Shkreli, everyone's favorite pharma asshole, and has never been performed commercially.

They should re-remix it with the left and right channels reversed, call it Shaolin Foreverafter, and distribute it for free. Fuck that twerp.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:56 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, the final album by the Wu-Tang Clan, is owned by Martin Shkreli, everyone's favorite pharma asshole, and has never been performed commercially.

It’s worth remembering, too, that this was always the plan for the album. The Wu-Tang are mad that a jerk like Shkreli bought it, but this was specifically their intent - one owner who gets to call all of the shots.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:57 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

True. They do indeed seem less than pleased with how it worked out, though. I guess that's how the cookie crumbles, but ugh.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gotta be Bill, right?

Yep. Bill would love hamming it up. Or could be another Bill. I could see William Shatner showing up on request.
posted by honestcoyote at 9:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

It's hard to argue against the interstate system as a grand scheme, but running interstates through the middle of cities -- almost always by levelling minority communities -- was a choice that didn't need to be taken, especially if you look at how contemporary European high-speed road networks were built between cities and not through them.
posted by holgate at 9:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Who would Team Hillary get to play Trump in mock debates?

Oh, it would definitely be Tim Kaine, believe me.
posted by dfan at 10:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Fascinating link, Talez. The top spend is on the agency who ran theSwift Boat Vets canpaign...
posted by Devonian at 10:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

schadenfrau: The drone program feels, deeply, like a moral monstrosity, but what is the alternative? That's not a rhetorical question; none of us know.

Greg Nog: Just gonna go out on a limb here and say "not using flying murder robots to kill people"

While I am also completely against the drone program, I think shadenfrau meant more along the lines of "What bad things would the terrorist leaders killed by the drone program have done if they had lived, and does preventing that morally outweigh using remote killing robots?" or "What would be the consequences of assassinating those terrorist leaders using other means like elite soldiers." This is an incredibly difficult question, possibly starting with should the US government even be assassinating people at all no matter how "evil" they are, but my point is there are some arguments that can be made in favor of the drone program by reasonable people who hold reasonable values that happen to differ from mine.
posted by Mayhembob at 10:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I submit that inherited wealth has played a major part in the problem of our current election. The Party of Thurmond's nominee received massive financial support from his father, while the father was alive and after he died. The inherited wealth allowed said nominee to see himself as a self-made man while simultaneously allowing him far more influence and a larger platform than a run-of-the-mill bully.

Similar descriptions could easily be applied to Charles and David Koch, George W. Bush, and Mitt Romney (who all seem like more decent human beings than the Republican nominee and don't seem to bully people in public). On the Democratic side, John Kerry has likely benefited from his wife's inherited fortune.

Definitely not a fan of massive, tax-free asset transfers to descendants because it perpetuates structural wealth inequality. I think the wealth has to move around through the economy to be useful.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:02 AM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

Gotta be Bill, right?

This keeps coming up. After watching Bill play with balloons at the DNC, I can't see him doing it. I don't think you can gawk in starry-eyed childlike wonder at balloons like that and still have enough venom left in your soul to properly perform Trump attempting to take Hillary Clinton down.

Darrell Hammond? No. Hammond's Trump is idiosyncratic, a mellow, dopey version of Trump that doesn't resemble the hateful demagogue he currently presents as.

They should call in Taran Killam. His Trump was never quite as funny as Hammond's but there is a weird, unpleasant darkness to his best SNL characters and I think he could spit the necessary acid.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:05 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump is going to anti-LGBT event in Orlando.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:08 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Also everybody knows the only morally acceptable way to use robots in warfare is to make them extremely large and anthropomorphic and to have angsty teenagers operating them from inside the chest cavity
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:08 AM on August 9, 2016 [47 favorites]

> I think shadenfrau meant more along the lines of "What bad things would the terrorist leaders killed by the drone program have done if they had lived, and does preventing that morally outweigh using remote killing robots?" or "What would be the consequences of assassinating those terrorist leaders using other means like elite soldiers."

That feels like a hell of a dodge. By that logic, whenever anyone says “we should stop doing X,” you could sow doubt by saying, “look, we honestly don’t know what the alternatives to X are, and what their unintended consequences would be, because in this universe we chose to do X.”

The other half of it makes sense — let’s try to quantify the risk versus the reward of each option, and do whichever one gives us the best outcome — but framing it your way reinforces the status quo side even more than usual. Just because we have a better sense of the numbers with option X doesn’t mean that we should prefer it over the uncertainty of option Y.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:09 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who would Team Hillary get to play Trump in mock debates?

I hear they're sending someone to Arkham to set up auditions.
posted by PlusDistance at 10:11 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

The only issue now is whether Donald Trump is going to show up to debate at the date, times, places and formats set by the commission last year through a bipartisan process. We will accept the commission's invitation and expect Donald Trump to do the same.

Oh, snap! There's a shot right across Trump's dominance-politics-playing bow. Now if he bows out, he's a chicken; if he shows up, he's doing as he was told. Well played, Team Clinton!
posted by Gelatin at 10:14 AM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

> "Open Secrets has a good disbursement summary."

Interesting.

Trump: 39.3% Media ($20.1 Million)
Clinton: 43.4% Media ($74.8 Million)

Trump: No Comparable Category
Clinton: 27% Salaries ($46.6 Million)

Trump: 19% Administrative ($9.7 Million)
Clinton: 11.6% Administrative ($19.9 Million)

Trump: 15.3% Unclassifiable ($7.8 Million)
Clinton: 4.4% Unclassifiable ($7.6 Million)

Trump: 9.1% All Other ($4.7 Million)
Clinton: 6.4% All Other ($11.1 Million)

Trump: 8.9% Strategy and Research ($4.6 Million)
Clinton: No Comparable Category

Trump: 8.5% Campaign Expenses ($4.3 Million)
Clinton: No Comparable Category

Trump: No Comparable Category
Clinton: 7.1% Fundraising ($12.3 Million)
posted by kyrademon at 10:14 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who would Team Hillary get to play Trump in mock debates?

I would choose Sen. Al Franken myself.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:15 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Playing Trump in the debates isn't about an impression of mannerisms the way an SNL performer would do - it's who can most convincingly respond in the way he would, who would seek to interrupt Hillary constantly, answer questions illogically though grounded in his "positions", etc.

Watch how he is in interviews - he constantly interrupts with an "excuse me, EXCUSE ME!" and then the journalists typically stop talking and let him go on. How Hillary responds to this will be interesting... gotta strike the right balance between assertiveness/aggression/exasperation with incompetence, but not come across as "shrill" (nb - not saying this is fair, but we all recognise the unfair gendered expectations Hillary will have to confront, esp if trying to strip away more of Trump's base).

How the candidate responds to the other candidate often seems more important than what they do independently - remember how Obama just calmly sat there while McCain wandered around the stage in an attempt to dominate the space, but instead just looked confused?
posted by modernnomad at 10:15 AM on August 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

After the last round, I no longer understand how manners are supposed to work in presidential debates at all. Constant interruptions of others and talking over the moderators. It seems to be a dominance game now, and the time limits are about as well observed as speed limits.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:20 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I just got the following email from the Sanders folks:

roomthreeseventeen:

Many of you already know that I've endorsed a candidate, Tim Canova, who is challenging the former head of the Democratic Party Debbie Wasserman Schultz in Florida.

This race is very important for Our Revolution because if we can win this tough fight in Florida, it will send a clear message about the power of our grassroots movement that will send shockwaves through the political and media establishments. The latest poll shows us within reach.

July 31 Poll
Debbie Wasserman Schultz: 46%
Tim Canova: 38%
Undecided: 16%

This is going to be close. Please chip in to Tim Canova's campaign so that we can get as many voters to the polls as possible before the August 30th primary:
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:21 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

How the candidate responds to the other candidate often seems more important than what they do independently

I thought Hillary did pretty well up against Sanders, who had a finger-wagging EXCUSE ME attitude, although he's far more polite than Trump. She didn't seem that fazed by it. I expect them to have someone to practice with who interrupts, insults, cajoles and mocks, and to have her work on the most effective strategy with Trump, which is keeping your cool and making him look like a baby.
posted by dis_integration at 10:21 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I really don't understand the fauxtrage over, like, "murder robots" or whatever.

Look, I would love it if the United States military did a shitload less killing, but the fact is that this is a thing that the US military has done, is doing, and almost certainly will continue to do.

Other than offering differing levels of precision and risk-to-US-military-lives, what fucking difference does it make if this killing is done by "flying murder robot" or "dudes with M4 rifles and night vision goggles" or "guy pressing button in cockpit of B2 bomber?"

Again, I am not defending the killing thing, but why this extra special level of "OMG EVIL" over what amounts to no more than remote control plane / helicopter things?
posted by dersins at 10:21 AM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

Radicals with badges: Mark Potok explains why renegade sheriffs are a growing threat in the U.S.:

You mentioned that the roots of this movement are very racist. Do you think race continues to play a role in the existence of these kinds of sovereign citizen and sovereign law enforcement movements?

No, I don’t think that race or anti-Semitism really play any part in this anymore. Certainly I would not accuse Richard Mack of being an anti-Semite or a racist. I think he does have extremely radical ideas, but they are built around the idea that the federal government is about to steal away all of our freedoms and so on. So the scary thing about Richard Mack and CSPOA is not that they’re out there, like some of the groups we cover at the Southern Poverty Law Center, trying to start a race war or whatever it may be, but the idea of creating real conflicts, sometimes armed conflicts, among the citizens of this country.

It’s worth remembering that Richard Mack and the CSPOA very much backed the family of Cliven Bundy and the hundreds of militiamen who supported him in defying the federal government in April of 2014. That whole standoff that occurred on Bundy’s ranch in Nevada very nearly came to a serious bloodshed. There were a very large number of the followers of Bundy who actually got to the point of pointing semi-automatic weapons at the heads of law enforcement officials. So it’s a dangerous game.

It is highly likely that some of these people are taking to heart Trump's message of a rigged/stolen election. The GOP and Trump are being extremely reckless in their rhetoric. Irrespective of who wins, I am increasingly worried about post-November America.
posted by palindromic at 10:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [32 favorites]

You're not gonna trick me into dignifying Kissinger by comparing him with Loki

Hmm, I immediately assumed Hannibal Lector in the glass box prison. I guess I'm out of touch with MCU or Norse legend.
posted by chris24 at 10:25 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Definitely not a fan of massive, tax-free asset transfers to descendants because it perpetuates structural wealth inequality. I think the wealth has to move around through the economy to be useful.

I'll argue the other side to some extent here, because I think corb taps into a legitimate sentiment about inheritance, which is tied to broader economic and social anxiety.

Baby Boomers collectively represent a kind of repository for late 20th-century American economic prosperity -- home equity, final salary pensions, Social Security obligations, personal investments -- but they also face uncertainty in old age. They live in suburbs or small towns even as they lose the capacity to drive safely, and may have to consider selling their homes and liquidating other assets to cover medical needs, assisted living or home care.

At the same time, the children and grandchildren of Boomers have a much higher debt load from college, and face the prospect of increasing rents or high barriers to get on the property ladder, along with more uncertainty about their long-term career prospects. Even if you're fortunate enough to have Boomer parents or grandparents who are comfortable in retirement, you can't reasonably expect them to tap deep into their savings to support you, because they don't know their own futures.

Inheritance on a small scale is also seen as a way to preserve social cohesion and continuity in places where that's under pressure. It's potentially a way to stay in the place you come from if the property market has become too hot to support local buyers versus those with wealth from elsewhere.

That's why it's a difficult topic: the way in which inheritance is perceived may not match up with how it actually works, especially in a country where the Walton spawn are collectively worth $150bn for choosing their ancestors wisely, but for many families it's considered a generational buoyancy aid, and small-scale inheritance has deep roots in the American mythos.
posted by holgate at 10:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Media Matters: Roger Stone Confirms That He's In Communication With Julian Assange.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:27 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Other than offering differing levels of precision and risk-to-US-military-lives, what fucking difference does it make if this killing is done by "flying murder robot" or "dudes with M4 rifles and night vision goggles" or "guy pressing button in cockpit of B2 bomber?"

I believe that the "risk to US military lives" bit is actually a strong argument against drones. Because:

* If engaging in war has a really heavy price tag when it comes to "potential death to soldiers", then it sets up war as something that you really wanna think about before you do it.
* On the other hand, if war means "drones" and the risk to soldiers' lives is minimal, then that creates a situation where military aggression ain't no thang for us, and we may be more likely to use military aggression as a result.

I want risk to US Military lives - because that puts a check on the hawks in our governments' inclination to be hawkish.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Again, I am not defending the killing thing, but why this extra special level of "OMG EVIL" over what amounts to no more than remote control plane / helicopter things?

It further removes the killers from the act, and also in a way the responsibility of killing. I don't think drones are more evil, in the way something like using gas weapons is. But I think their use should be banned by an international treaty because they make killing too easy, and change the equation of how often the government decides to pull the trigger.
posted by Mayhembob at 10:30 AM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

* If engaging in war has a really heavy price tag when it comes to "potential death to soldiers", then it sets up war as something that you really wanna think about before you do it.
* On the other hand, if war means "drones" and the risk to soldiers' lives is minimal, then that creates a situation where military aggression ain't no thang for us, and we may be more likely to use military aggression as a result.

I want risk to US Military lives - because that puts a check on the hawks in our governments' inclination to be hawkish.

This is a totally reasonable hypothesis--one that seems to me to be totally plausible. But is there any data to support it? Because unless there is data to back it up, it remains nothing more than a hypothesis.
posted by dersins at 10:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

> That's why it's a difficult topic: the way in which inheritance is perceived may not match up with how it actually works, especially in a country where the Walton spawn are collectively worth $150bn for choosing their ancestors wisely, but for many families it's considered a generational buoyancy aid, and small-scale inheritance has deep roots in the American mythos.

Well but okay it's also necessary to sort of keep one's eye on the ball in this case, since on the one hand we're discussing the estate tax and on the other hand we're discussing small-scale inheritance.

Since inheritors get the first 10 million free there is no non-specious relationship between small-scale inheritance and the estate tax, unless you consider like 12 million dollar estates to be small-scale.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

I'm much less comfortable with a president who does feel that way, honestly. I don't think you should, or can be, what we think of as a normal, moral human being to be able to wield the power and responsibility that resides in the Oval Office, and to think otherwise seems frankly childish.

I don't think it's childish to find this statement profoundly and deeply disturbing. No one is superhuman and being elected president - or any major political office - should not mean that you get to step out of what is normal human morality or decency. The president is not elected to be god for 4 years. They are elected to lead the country in tandem with other branches of the government (well, if the other branches allow them to) and not to stand as some higher moral authority with apparently miraculous abilities to just judge things purely, cleanly, and without prejudice, a feat which no human being has ever achieved.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

How liberals helped enable the rise of Trump

I enjoy this genre of nonsense much more than I should, because it's always so desperate and pleading. We could have had Ted Cruz if you just eased up in the political correctness, guys!


That article was the perfect place to try my shiny new find-replace "PC" --> "treating people with respect culture" mental Internet-filter:

"And yes, it's absolutely true that a lot of so-called anti-treating people with respect culture rhetoric is just racism or trolling"

"And you can bet they're going to just love a guy who goes up against every single treating-people-with-respect-culture taboo (yes, including ones that are taboos for very good reasons). They might not agree with everything he says, but they like that he's saying it."
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:36 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

I want risk to US Military lives - because that puts a check on the hawks in our governments' inclination to be hawkish.

This is a totally reasonable hypothesis--one that seems to me to be totally plausible. But is there any data to support it? Because unless there is data to back it up, it remains nothing more than a hypothesis.

Has the US been using drone strikes long enough to gather meaningful data? It seems intuitively clear that constituents are less likely to support war if it means putting lives at risk (just look back at the past decade of politicians' speeches that mention that phrase or some variant).
posted by Mayhembob at 10:37 AM on August 9, 2016

To say that the "right" has not contributed some ideas to governance is to discount actual evidence

So where is that evidence? The best anyone here has been able to come up with goes back almost a half century. Conservatives have nothing to contribute to political policy. The country and the world would be a better place if they did not exist.

A better place would be a new two-party system which included the traditional Democratic Party and a left Progressive Party. Conservatives have no place in a better world. They want the status quo or reversal to some imagined idyllic past.
posted by JackFlash at 10:37 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think debating whether drone warfare is especially evil in itself distracts from debating whether the United States should operate an imperialistic foreign policy which includes an assassination program that kills more civilians than "terrorists."
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:38 AM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

I think it's morally wrong to force children to sell the things someone has spent a lifetime building (land, valuables) in order to pay the government.

I think it's morally monstrous to privilege the right of children of multimillionaires to inherit vast wealth they did nothing to earn, over the right of children who actually need money for food and shelter. I can't see how anyone's conscience lets them argue that breaking up an art collection is worse than the many lives that money could save.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 10:40 AM on August 9, 2016 [51 favorites]

Trump is going to anti-LGBT event in Orlando.

Ask the gays what they think and what they do...and then you tell me — who's your friend, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton?

posted by kirkaracha at 10:41 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well but okay it's also necessary to sort of keep one's eye on the ball in this case, since on the one hand we're discussing the estate tax and on the other hand we're discussing small-scale inheritance.

Of course. It's the same conflation that made "Joe The Plumber" an advocate against a tax rate he was never likely to pay at his current income, but maybe in a couple of years... The "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" quote assigned to Steinbeck is apocryphal, but that doesn't make it any less applicable to American politics.
posted by holgate at 10:44 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Speaking of the staff, not only is his numbers minuscule in comparison to Clinton's, they all seem to be incredibly incompetent. For example, yesterday speaking in front of the Detroit Economic Club on Monday his prepared speech stated that Detroit is a city controlled by Democrats at "every level." Michigan has a Republican Governor and a Republican controlled House and Senate.

Plus, you know, the fact that the Republican governor of Michigan appointed what amounts to a modern-day procurator to subvert the democratic will of the largely African-American people of Detroit.

A quick Google would have not gone amiss when you are writing a speech that will be read and parsed Nation-wide. Are his speech writers that incompetent, that lazy, or are they so underpaid they don't give a shit?

What we see here is the complex interplay of incompetence, subconscious resistance and subtle acts of intentional defiance. That's our Meredith!
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:46 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I want risk to US Military lives - because that puts a check on the hawks in our governments' inclination to be hawkish.

Isn't the trend the opposite though? I think it's true that even before drones, war technology advances have focused on the ability to neutralize people and resources of the enemy while minimizing your own losses. Yet, this hasn't caused more war to happen, we're at a relatively peaceful era with less violence occurring.
posted by FJT at 10:46 AM on August 9, 2016

Conservatives have nothing to contribute to political policy. The country and the world would be a better place if they did not exist.

No it wouldn't. Conservatives exist so that progressives can't get too stupid and vice versa. Each group pushes back on the other if the other goes too far.
posted by Talez at 10:47 AM on August 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

Conservatives have nothing to contribute to political policy.

Nonsense. Brexit would have been avoided if there was a clearer voice for the status quo.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:47 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

The drone program has been problematic since its inception, not least because:

1. There is no public oversight or open policy discussion on the use of drones. Drones have been used to carry out extralegal execution of American citizens, for example, and when you have a President suspend habeas corpus, that's openly controversial. Doubly so when Congress has not authorized war.

2. Drones increase the extent to which our wars are privatized, by replacing more of the public war-fighting element—human beings—with commodity products we buy from one or another arms dealer.

3. As an adjunct, the public is further removed from involvement in its wars by deploying drones. A public that doesn't have to fight its wars is removed from the bloody consequences both physically and morally, which makes it easier to look aside when innocent people are killed.

4. Drones further establish the power imbalance over the people that we target drones against, which leads to increased global terrorism.

I mean, we're far afield of the subject at hand, but it is pretty and plainly ridiculous to suggest that use of drones is not controversial, or that the use of drones by whoever is elected President would not still be controversial.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

At the same time, the children and grandchildren of Boomers have a much higher debt load from college, and face the prospect of increasing rents or high barriers to get on the property ladder, along with more uncertainty about their long-term career prospects. Even if you're fortunate enough to have Boomer parents or grandparents who are comfortable in retirement, you can't reasonably expect them to tap deep into their savings to support you, because they don't know their own futures.

These people you cite will never pay a dime of estate tax, so why are they worried about it. Under current law parents can give each of their 10 (!) children a million dollars each tax-free. You don't think that million dollars is enough of a head start for your children?
posted by JackFlash at 10:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Conservatives have no place in a better world.

I keep trying to respond to this, but whoof - what a statement. I think I'm just going to leave it at that - people exist, whether you want them to or not, and it's a lot easier to find ways to get them invested in the world you want them to create than to just wish them gone.
posted by corb at 10:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [86 favorites]

> I expect them to have someone to practice with who interrupts, insults, cajoles and mocks, and to have her work on the most effective strategy with Trump, which is keeping your cool and making him look like a baby.

oh god i've got such a dorky analogy. I shouldn't post it. I'll post it.

hey remember the first Final Fantasy game, for the original NES? Remember how your first quest is fighting this Garland guy who was kind of weak and silly? and you beat him, of course, and he runs away, then you spend a huge amount of time slowly leveling up and eventually fighting dragons and giants and elemental gods and whatever, and then eventually you learn that the big bad is this thing called Chaos, but when you finally confront him you learn that — oh em gee! — Chaos is actually Garland, that scrub you fought at the start who you've totally forgotten about!

okay now remember Clinton/Lazio in 2000. We already know Clinton's great at exploiting the aggressiveness of loudmouth New York bros to get them to do campaign-wreckingly stupid shit — we saw her do it back in 2000, it was like literally the first political skill Clinton deployed back in the day.

Trump is the apotheosis of Lazio. He's Chaos to Lazio's Garland. But he's still just a loudmouth New York bro. Clinton's got this.

alternate dorky analogy: expecting to beat Clinton with loudmouth bro-ness is like trying to kill Dr. Manhattan by removing his intrinsic field.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Maybe losing Military lives was a preventative back when we had a draft, but I wonder if it has any effect when the military is "volunteer".
posted by wittgenstein at 10:51 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I want risk to US Military lives - because that puts a check on the hawks in our governments' inclination to be hawkish.

Losing US military lives has never been a check on the hawks or their inclination to be hawkish. Viet-fucking-nam QED.
posted by Talez at 10:52 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

> "I mean, we're far afield of the subject at hand ..."

I would like to state, for the record, that I am strongly opposed to the use of drones against Evan McMullin.
posted by kyrademon at 10:52 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

> Or especially when someone has this wonderful family estate but is cash-poor, so they have to figure out how to sell off part of the land in order to pay the tax.

For whatever a personal anecdote is worth, this has happened with neighbors of mine. They have a nice spread of land that has been owned by the family since it was given to them by Lord Fairfax. Selling the land is not the only option, these neighbors have greatly reducing their tax liabilities by donating parts of it to the county for public parks, and putting other parts into conservation trusts to retain both their ownership with historical and environmental benefits to the community. That seems like a pretty fair trade.

Of course, the other option for land-rich, cash-poor family is to put unproductive assets to work. This particular family has recently built a business on their land to provide income and jobs, a concept that I thought was pretty well favored by conservatives. They now have a successful winery to which supports the family and secures their private ownership, bringing economic benefits to the wider community while preserving the rural character and cultural history of the land. That seems like a win-win compared to hundreds of acres of very pretty land sitting idle.

But the bigger picture is that I don't think it's a particularly American ideal that we should give preferential tax treatment to their family assets that were built by their slave-owning ancestors, who were granted the land by a English Lord, who received the land for political patronage from the King of England. But that's just me I guess.
posted by peeedro at 10:53 AM on August 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

Jeet Heer of the New Republic says that we should be prepared for an October surprise, courtesy of the twin Kings of the Ninth Circle of Hell, Roger Stone and Julian Assange.
posted by holborne at 10:54 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

holgate: Inheritance on a small scale is also seen as a way to preserve social cohesion and continuity in places where that's under pressure. It's potentially a way to stay in the place you come from if the property market has become too hot to support local buyers versus those with wealth from elsewhere.

Small-scale inheritance makes sense in this light; however, what counts as a 'small' estate is between 5 and 10 million dollars, so conflating the two is...perilous in my mind.

That's why it's a difficult topic: the way in which inheritance is perceived may not match up with how it actually works, especially in a country where the Walton spawn are collectively worth $150bn for choosing their ancestors wisely, but for many families it's considered a generational buoyancy aid, and small-scale inheritance has deep roots in the American mythos.

This argument seems like a great case for a progressive estate tax. Under such a scheme, I could be open to the current, erm, state of the estate tax, where 5-10 million is exempt since clearly, not everyone is going to agree on the extent to which inheritance should(n't) be taxed (as is evident in this thread). Very complex topic.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:54 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hell, do you think Cheney was thinking of US military lives when he dragged us into Iraq? No. He was thinking of the massive fucking payday for Haliburton.
posted by Talez at 10:54 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Why is Clinton using Trump to promote Republicans?
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:57 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Folks, maybe let's steer things back toward the election and away from drones, etc. Also: please DON'T flag tons of comments, it actually inhibits me looking at them effectively. If there are a lot you want to object to, come to the contact form.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:58 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

> Again, I am not defending the killing thing, but why this extra special level of "OMG EVIL" over what amounts to no more than remote control plane / helicopter things?

DHS wants Silicon Valley to develop drones with facial recognition technology: "The machines would look for questionable activity, scan faces of suspects and compare them against a database for prior criminal history..." and then kill them.

> I want risk to US Military lives - because that puts a check on the hawks in our governments' inclination to be hawkish.

Proposal: keep the nuclear launch codes in an innocent volunteer's chest-cavity: "what if the codes to launch nuclear war were kept inside the chest-cavity of a young volunteer, and the President would have to hack them out of this young man's chest before he could commence armageddon?"

> Jefferson's "the earth belongs in usufruct to the living" remains an astonishingly radical statement over 200 years after it was written...

fwiw, just learned this about silvio gesell: "He considered himself a world citizen and was inspired by Henry George to believe that the Earth should belong to all people, regardless of race, gender, class, wealth, religion and age and that borders should be made obsolete. His land reform proposal is essentially what is known presently as Georgism... This included the removal of all legal and inherited privileges."
posted by kliuless at 11:00 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I want to thank corb for sticking with us despite our obvious tendencies.

Also, what happened with the RNC balloons?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:01 AM on August 9, 2016 [37 favorites]

shadenfrau

The user's name is shadenfrau actually, though shadenfreude is quite an excellent descriptor of my mood rn
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:02 AM on August 9, 2016

At what point do the various leaders of the western world call Quito and go, "Look, if Assange ends up giving us President Trump, your only trading partner will be the US, and you'll be as much a pariah as they are."
posted by dw at 11:02 AM on August 9, 2016

> Who would Team Hillary get to play Trump in mock debates?

Jesus, these election threads:

Clinton's debate rehearsals are gonna be interesting. Wonder who's gonna play Trump.
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:06 PM on June 1 [has favorites +] [!]

Here's a fun thing to ponder (that I just found myself wondering) during the next few days: Who would make an effective stand-in for Trump during Clinton's mock debates in prep for the actual debates?
posted by dry white toast at 3:10 PM on July 18 [has favorites +] [!]
posted by peeedro at 11:02 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

> "... what if the codes to launch nuclear war were kept inside the chest-cavity of a young volunteer, and the President would have to hack them out of this young man's chest before he could commence armageddon?"

TRUMP: Gimme the axe!
AIDE: What? We're not even at war!
TRUMP: I'm not gonna launch now, I just want to see 'em! Gimme the axe!
posted by kyrademon at 11:05 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Jesus, these election threads:

If there is a silver lining, it's that everyone gets talked out by election day and that thread will be pretty quiet.
posted by mazola at 11:06 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think if we're going to be comparing Trump to Final Fantasy villains he's probably Ultros, specifically his use of LV3 Muddle and Confuse and preference to targeting to Terra.

Oh and also he's a joke.
posted by Tevin at 11:10 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Also, what happened with the RNC balloons?

Oh man! Okay. So caveat, this is what I heard from hanging out with reporters - specifically, I ran into someone from 538 while I was finishing up an interview with Robert from Cracked, and they wound up getting into a conversation about the oddball stories they were being tasked with. (Thus why I didn't want to spoil the Cracked story, but it looks like it went to publication before the balloon drop, so thus missed the causal link). According to the Cracked reporter, he'd spent a lot of time investigating the balloons, specifically, and the facility was not actually really designed with the idea of having lots of balloons drop from the ceiling - so there was a lot of machine gunk and stuff there, and they were put up way, way early. His story wound up focusing on the idea of having these gross balloons fall on the gross convention, but I think it actually may explain why the balloons fell so weirdly, if they were put up there for a week and let to attach to gross gunk.
posted by corb at 11:12 AM on August 9, 2016 [33 favorites]

Does Trump actually fly back to NY to sleep every single night?
posted by arm426 at 11:12 AM on August 9, 2016

So, I had this weird dream a few days ago. You know the scene in Legend where Lily/Mia Sara gets the dancing dress and meets Darkness? I was there with Lily (who was wearing a less revealing version of the dress) and we were both concerned because that room we were in was actually under the RNC arena, and we could hear people applauding for Trump upstairs. Then Darkness came out of the mirror, much like in the film. He smiled his wicked smile at us and announced "He is here!" and pointed at the fireplace. Laibach's Leben heißt leben started playing loudly in the background, and Reince Priebus walked out of the fireplace. He just stood there silently, staring at us with that stupid smile of his while Darkness laughed, and I noticed the lyrics had changed "leben heißt leben" to '"Priebus! Reince Priebus!" (now I hear that song in my head every time I read his name or see his smug face on TV.) Lilly turned to me with a WTF look on her face and asked me "what does it mean?" and I told her that I didn't know and that I'd have check MeFi.

So I ask you, o' wise sages of the blue bean plate, on the off chance that I encounter Mia Sara again, what should I tell her?
posted by homunculus at 11:13 AM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Mod note: Several deleted, please drop the thing about "world would be better without" - it's fine to say you wish people would relinquish those views, no need to go down the road of how close to interpretable-as-eliminationist rhetoric we want to get.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:13 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Does Trump actually fly back to NY to sleep every single night?

I actually don't care one way or the other. I would do it if I were running for president and could afford to fly home and see my fiance and cat.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:13 AM on August 9, 2016

Does Trump actually fly back to NY to sleep every single night?

Reportedly.
posted by OmieWise at 11:15 AM on August 9, 2016

Small-scale inheritance makes sense in this light; however, what counts as a 'small' estate is between 5 and 10 million dollars, so conflating the two is...perilous in my mind.

Like I suggested, that conflation is something you have to address, because the aspiration towards a considerably wealthier future (whether a few years' hence or for the next generation) and a willingness to support policies based on projection runs deep in American culture and politics. Conflation is how you get people on $40,000 household incomes voting for tax cuts that mostly benefit millionaires' non-wage income. Conflation is why people think Trump is the exemplary billionaire because they've seen his bullshitty reality show and pictures of his gaudy lifestyle.
posted by holgate at 11:16 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

His story wound up focusing on the idea of having these gross balloons fall on the gross convention

Oh, I saw that. Didn't realize that was the explanation.

Does Trump actually fly back to NY to sleep every single night?

AFAICT. It's been brought up that it may be limiting his campaigning, which is based on personal rallies.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Causes of Trump: Economic or Political?

Contrary to what Boot might think, populists have a point. Elites are necessary, but just at this moment in American history, elites have a lot to answer for.


Consider that it was the political elite that got us into the Iraq War, a conflict now reviled by both parties. Do you recall any social or political movement demanding that Saddam Hussein be removed? Iraq was an elite project (re Boot, a foreign policy elite project) through and through. Elites leaned against more regulation from the 1980s onward and so weren’t looking out for ordinary citizens when the shadow banking sector got big. In one of their biggest failures that still doesn’t get enough attention, elites didn’t care to explain why they had to save the banks during the 2008 financial crisis and then didn’t hold anyone responsible. Elites produced endless budget dysfunction in Congress. Elites (one elite, John Boehner) didn’t allow immigration reform to proceed to a vote in the House, thus setting in motion a chain of events which aided Trump immensely. Elites created an impression among voters of DC gone wild and they hoped voters wouldn’t notice. But it’s not just immigration. Trump’s anti-policy platform, his claim to legitimacy, is constructed out of the many bridges to the voters that DC elites deliberately burned, starting with the Iraq War.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

So when I was growing up the NUMBER ONE thing that we were NEVER TO DO was to negatively label a person's identity.

We could call out actions, sure. "Mom, Josh (my little brother) is being stupid / lying / bugging me", sure.

But:

"Josh is stupid"
"Josh is a liar"
"Josh is a pest"

No. go. Immediate tongue-lashing and/or grounding to ensue.

We're not fighting for the destruction of persons who are racist/sexist/xenophobic; we're condemning their racist/sexist/xenophobic actions and working to destroy racism, sexism and xenophobia themselves, insofar as that is possible.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:18 AM on August 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

maybe the way to save this conversational thread is to step back a little from talking about identity and instead talk about political theories. I think the thrust of the "conservatism shouldn't exist" idea is that the cluster of political ideas associated with conservatism (especially but not exclusively the contemporary whatever-it-is that's been traveling under the name "conservatism" in America since Reagan) are dangerously bad, and that in a sane world conservatism would be a fringe ideology instead of something that has to be taken seriously.

But in the world we're stuck living in, conservatives aren't a fringe group; they control a major party and are influential in the other. This is a problem — sort of like how it'd be a problem if I were put in charge of the Democratic Party and suddenly people had to start taking You Can't Tip a Buickism seriously.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:18 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah the RNC balloons were blown up the Friday before the convention by a bunch of mostly black teens who don't like Trump. DNC balloons were blown up the day of by professionals and college students.
posted by acidic at 11:19 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

DNC balloons were blown up the day of

I wonder if that was the reason for everyone's delight. They weren't shitty week old balloons.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

This Benghazi lawsuit against Clinton is going to be dismissed right?
posted by chrchr at 11:23 AM on August 9, 2016

Does Trump actually fly back to NY to sleep every single night?

Word has it that he stands in his regeneration alcove for 6-8 hours while regenerating. Alcoves are power hungry and don't fit on a 757 so they're only installed at trump opened properties.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:27 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Looking at the poll results that go into the RCP average is always instructive. We've had 17 national polls in a row all won by Clinton. In the 17 polls before that, only 5 were won by Trump. Every single poll but one in June was won by Clinton.

For two days in May Trump has a 0.2% lead in the average, and he had a three day period post GOP convention when he lead, with a one-day high of +1.1%. Clinton is a +7.5 now, and just eyeballing the average for her puts it around +3 or 4%. The only times she is inside that are around Trump's two small moments of leading.
posted by OmieWise at 11:28 AM on August 9, 2016

Does Trump actually fly back to NY to sleep every single night?

NYC or Mar-a-Lago or Beverly Hills, and perhaps the Kluge Estate at the winery near Charlottesville. He's in NC today, southwest VA and FL tomorrow afternoon/evening, FL Thursday, then PA on Friday, so assume the winery or Mar-a-Lago tonight, Mar-a-Lago Wednesday, then back to NYC on Thursday night.

It's hard to prove beyond a doubt that he spends every night in a Trump-owned property, or that he's planning his rallies based upon easy plane commutes, but his schedule definitely points in that direction, while Pence is putting in all the miles in the midwest.
posted by holgate at 11:29 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Word has it that he stands in his regeneration alcove for 6-8 hours while regenerating. Alcoves are power hungry and don't fit on a 757 so they're only installed at trump opened properties.

now I want to write a script for a television series, or maybe a graphic novel, set in a world where all the things that people say as jokes about the 2016 election are actually true. Trump spends six to eight hours a day standing in a regeneration alcove. Cruz is thousands of lizards in a skin suit. Clinton is a malfunctioning robot that killed Vince Foster. Bernie Sanders only owns one pair of underwear. Peter Thiel is... pretty much the same as he is in the real world...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Don't forget Meredith and Reek.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

This Benghazi lawsuit against Clinton is going to be dismissed right?

Yes. It's a show lawsuit by that insane asshole Larry Klayman.
posted by holborne at 11:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm thrilled with the implosion of the Republican party of 2016, but not at all because I want Republicans to go away or think conservatism is evil. It's because they are an absolute corruption of ideals and so far gone they have to tear down and start again.

But I absolutely want a real adult 49% conservative opposition to a liberal majority. It's completely necessary for a healthy government. Without that the Democrats will just become corrupt and implode. Checks and balances, they're for everyone.
posted by bongo_x at 11:41 AM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

As I see it the happy ending to the "what if all the jokes are true" story comes about only after lil Lincoln Chaffee, who's portrayed as a bit like Neville from Harry Potter and a bit like Arthur from The Tick, regains his lost confidence and finally stands up for himself, using his skill as a farrier to somehow save the day.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:41 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

> But I absolutely want a real adult 49% conservative opposition to a liberal majority. It's completely necessary for a healthy government. Without that the Democrats will just become corrupt and implode. Checks and balances, they're for everyone.

Or alternately we could become a sane country and have a real, healthy liberal opposition to a social-democratic majority.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:42 AM on August 9, 2016 [49 favorites]

holgate: The "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" quote assigned to Steinbeck is apocryphal, but that doesn't make it any less applicable to American politics.

Not so much apocryphal, but a paraphrase by Ronald Wright being cited as a direct quote -- Steinbeck's phrase was "temporarily embarrassed capitalist".
posted by tavella at 11:43 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

This argument seems like a great case for a progressive estate tax. Under such a scheme, I could be open to the current, erm, state of the estate tax, where 5-10 million is exempt since clearly, not everyone is going to agree on the extent to which inheritance should(n't) be taxed (as is evident in this thread). Very complex topic.

And this, ladies and gentleman, is how you govern in a world of sane, reasonable adults. A reasonable disagreement, a reasonable discussion and debate, and a reasonable compromise (I'm assuming that our conservative contingent would be okay with something like this).

#metafilterforcongress
posted by VTX at 11:44 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

oh god now I'm shipping Meredith and Lincoln Chaffee. stop it, brain. do something useful with yourself.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Quinnipiac lifts embargo (presumably to beat competition) FL: Clinton 46, Trump 45 OH: Clinton 49, Trump 45 Pa: Clinton 52, Trump 42
posted by OmieWise at 11:46 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Media Matters: Roger Stone Confirms That He's In Communication With Julian Assange.

"ROGER STONE: Well, it could be any number of things. I actually have communicated with Assange. I believe the next tranche of his documents pertain to the Clinton Foundation but there's no telling what the October surprise may be."

Knowing Stone and Assange, I'll bet it's the whitey tape.

(If Media Mattered that headline would read "Roger Stone Says That He's In Communication With Julian Assange.")
posted by octobersurprise at 11:47 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

The local news is covering the trump rally and there are currently 3 different blurb/story-type items on the front page of their website.

I am not protesting because I don't want to get into a fight or arrested or feel badly because I'd see someone I know and possibly had held some respect for them.

The pictures show so. Many. White. People.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 11:47 AM on August 9, 2016

Trump Agrees To Three Debates—But He Wants To See The Conditions First

Because everything is a negotiation with him.
posted by zachlipton at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ugh.

Orlando shooter’s father spotted at Clinton rally (Washington Post)
posted by carrienation at 11:51 AM on August 9, 2016

@EliStokols: "Who sends 33,000 emails?" says Trump, who doesn't use email it all.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:54 AM on August 9, 2016

Quinnipiac lifts embargo (presumably to beat competition) FL: Clinton 46, Trump 45 OH: Clinton 49, Trump 45 Pa: Clinton 52, Trump 42

I thought Florida was more strongly for Clinton than that at the moement. But that's a five point swing from Quinnipac polling the same states at the end of June. Other than Penn where Quinnipac had Trump ahead six points at the last poll.
posted by Francis at 11:55 AM on August 9, 2016

> Not always! I saw a ton of these sets of three crosses while driving through West Virginia.

> One of my favorites is this one, which seems to be installed just to watch over a huge "Adult Store" in Tennessee.

Huh! Okay, I stand corrected. I've actually lived my entire life in the South and while I've seen plenty of little memorial crosses, I've never noticed big, showy roadside displays like this.

I'm in total sympathy with anybody who thinks that kind of ostentation is obnoxious or even threatening.
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 11:55 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

And hilariously, someone on Twitter noticed that Trump has tweeted---wait for it--almost 33,000 times.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:56 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Florida officials identify 4 more people who likely contracted Zika through mosquitoes, bringing total to 21 people, Governor Scott asks Congress to go back to work.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:56 AM on August 9, 2016

Hey, um, if anyone was still skeptical about the DNC hack being done by Russians, apparently Russians hacked the DNC back in June. That's an old story from before the big leak in July, and it indicates that they had access to all the emails that were later leaked.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 11:58 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Every time I hear an aspiring Republican refer to the GOP as "the party of Lincoln" as though it will make the party appeal to would-be voters, it plays in my head like Roger Gooddell referring to the Colts as "the team of Baltimore" to try to appeal to folks in Maryland. OK, that's fine, go ahead and call it whatever you want, guy, but eventually someone's going to pull up the Wikipedia article and then they're gonna be pisssssssssssed.
posted by Mayor West at 11:58 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Just to note: that Q poll is the first from them to use a likely voter model rather than a registered voter model, according to r/hillaryclinton.
posted by peacheater at 11:58 AM on August 9, 2016

Governor Scott asks Congress to go back to work.

"Back". Ha.
posted by Etrigan at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump seems to be off message today. Says "Hillary" protesters are "so nice and quiet": "The Hillary protesters have no spirit"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:00 PM on August 9, 2016

It's hard to prove beyond a doubt that he spends every night in a Trump-owned property, or that he's planning his rallies based upon easy plane commutes, but his schedule definitely points in that direction,

He's running his campaign using as many Trump properties as possible so he can bill himself. Many people are saying it.
posted by hydrophonic at 12:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Florida officials identify 4 more people who likely contracted Zika through mosquitoes, bringing total to 21 people, Governor Scott asks Congress to go back to work.

I saw a tweet that I saw that said something along the lines of "Gov Rick Scott warns about mosquitoes bearing Zika because some shithead named Rick Scott cut funding for mosquito control in 2011."
posted by zombieflanders at 12:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [33 favorites]

I thought Florida was more strongly for Clinton than that at the moement.

Quinnipac has a pretty strong R lean.
posted by OmieWise at 12:04 PM on August 9, 2016

He's running his campaign using as many Trump properties as possible so he can bill himself.

Many people are saying it.

It is known.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Clinton wins PA & MI, she can lose FL, OH, & NC and still win.
posted by OmieWise at 12:05 PM on August 9, 2016

Current NYT upshot analysis is interesting... based on most recent set of polls, # of possible routes to 270 that the Donald has is down to two (scroll to bottom of page to play with possibilities).
posted by modernnomad at 12:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh boy. He's off the chain again. 2nd-ammendment remedies.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Governor Scott asks Congress to go back to work.

"Back". Ha.

It bears repeating that the Congressional GOP (yes, even the so-called "sane" and "moderate" ones) are holding the funds for fighting Zika hostage because they love Confederate flags and hate regulating insecticide pollution, Planned Parenthood, and Obamacare. Because obviously those are totally the things to be pushing in response to a disease that is expected to overwhelm the entire former Confederacy, is carried by insects, and requires both excellent reproductive/neonatal healthcare and a federalized health response.

If you want to see evil in both its pure and "when good [people] do nothing" forms, there it is.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [45 favorites]

Without that the Democrats will just become corrupt and implode.

*flourish*

I give you... *gesticulates wildly* ...Illinois!
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

@CandaceSmith_: Here's Trump saying that maybe "the 2nd Amendment folks" can maybe prevent Hillary from choosing judges.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

@CandaceSmith_: Here's Trump saying that maybe "the 2nd Amendment folks" can maybe prevent Hillary from choosing judges.

Surely this must be illegal.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

What gets me all maddened is when someone dies with a gorgeous art collection that they loved dearly and wanted to pass on to their kids which has increased in value and not a lot of cash money, so the art collection has to be broken up and sold in order to pay the tax on the art collection.

As someone who has spent a decade breaking up and selling off my father's collection that he poured years of effort and TONS of money into, and which isn't actually worth what he spent on it, I kinda wish he had just left me a bank account of money, even if I had to give the government a percentage. (I mean, I know it made him happy, but as an heir it's been a pain in the butt.)
posted by threeturtles at 12:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

God his word salad is so infuriating because it always leaves him an out of plausible deniability even though everyone freaking knows what he means.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

"God his word salad is so infuriating because it always leaves him an out of plausible deniability"

Perhaps not with Secret Service agents, though.
posted by klarck at 12:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also when it comes to drones, the invisible flying murder robots maybe wouldn't be so bad if they weren't being used to kill civilians and terrorize children. The technology isn't inherently unethical (like gas or nuclear bombs, which inherently have spill-over effects) but using them for war crimes is.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 12:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Here is the video of the 2A comment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:25 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Trump Agrees To Three Debates—But He Wants To See The Conditions First

"I want to debate very badly." I'm sure he will.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [61 favorites]

NYC or Mar-a-Lago or Beverly Hills, and perhaps the Kluge Estate at the winery near Charlottesville. He's in NC today, southwest VA and FL tomorrow afternoon/evening, FL Thursday, then PA on Friday, so assume the winery or Mar-a-Lago tonight, Mar-a-Lago Wednesday, then back to NYC on Thursday night.

I wonder when the Republicans will nominate a candidate who only has, like, one or two houses.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Surely this must be illegal.

(I think I'll use "Surely This" as the title of the graphic novel series based on a world where every joke about the 2016 election is true.)
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [38 favorites]

Sooooooo, that was essentially a provocation to attack Clinton if she is elected. Is there anything anyone can do about that? Because if it was Joe Schmoe on the street, they'd be getting a call from the Secret Service.
posted by codacorolla at 12:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

What. The. Fuck.
posted by rp at 12:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

MSF (Doctors Without Borders), among (many) other aid organizations, have experimented with humanitarian uses for drones, like delivering medical supplies to remote locations. Imagine how drones could be used to save lives and alleviate suffering by bringing food, water, cash, medicine, or other supplies to remote parts of the world. (Not trying to reopen the whole can of worms, just pointing out that drones aren't limited to being weapons of war.)
posted by fragmede at 12:34 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

OK, this whole derail about conservatives was in response to this thing I wrote, which I'm quoting myself:

Sometimes people on the right have ideas that are excellent and sometimes people on the left have ideas that are lousy. I'm sure some of my ideas are lousy. Perhaps even this one.

I don't want to see the collapse of the Republican party - I'd like to see it purge itself of its members who demand ideological purity at the expense of the public good. At the moment, that looks like defeating Trump and getting Republicans like you back into the driver's seat. We don't often agree, but I believe fervently that you are motivated by good will for your fellow humans and a desire to make things better for everyone.

My point had almost nothing to do with specific policies and more to do with process. When people are working towards the greater public good, it is usually good to have a few people who push hard for change and a few people who go "whoa whoa whoa - remember that thing about how people who forget the past are doomed to repeat it?" Sometimes the idea of progress and change is excellent and sometimes its useful to say "but what we have right now is working" or "that would be an awesome thing to do, but let's sit down for a few minutes and ponder what the unintended consequences might be" or even "hey, we can't afford that right now." Having those conservative ideas in the mix of any conversation means that the plan to move forward (or not) will be thoroughly discussed, debated and nitpicked over in such a way that it will be a much, much better plan.

In my opinion, the problem with the current ideologically pure far right is twofold. First, I don't believe they are working for the common good - just the good for a small subset of our population. Second, by refusing to compromise on anything, they are not entering into the process of governing in good faith. Indeed, they seem to obstinately refuse to govern.

Having a conservative party that is interested in having a functioning government can only help us. Its the "interest in governing for the good of your fellow humans" part that matters most. The bend of history leans towards progress but it doesn't hurt to have an intelligent, good willed group of conservative people saying "Hey, before we do this, can we think it through first?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

What is the threshold for inciting violence?

Does Trump want to create a new generation of right wing domestic terrorists, or is he just an idiot?
posted by vuron at 12:37 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Does Trump want to create a new generation of right wing domestic terrorists, or is he just an idiot?

Yes?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [87 favorites]

Surely this must be illegal.

Republicans say all kinds of seditious stuff without consequences. It would play into Trump's hands to make him a free-speech martyr.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does Trump want to create a new generation of right wing domestic terrorists, or is he just an idiot?

Both.
posted by pracowity at 12:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump rolls out “Gold Executive Membership Card” for donors.

That's it! Gloves are off! No one tries to steal Telly's steeze and gets away with it!
posted by octobersurprise at 12:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait. If you currently need a path to 270 to get into the debates, soon Trump would be ineligible?
posted by corb at 12:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Corb with the #bantz
posted by vuron at 12:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Amanda Marcotte: It’s still Trump’s show: Journalists should avoid the temptation to assume Mike Pence is the power behind the throne:

Already, there’s indications that Pence is stepping into the role of being the “real” candidate who will get the forgiving, “balanced” coverage the Republican usually gets against a Democratic nominee. After Trump made headlines by issuing baseless attacks on Khizr and Ghazala Khan, who criticized Trump at the Democratic National Convention and who lost their son in the Iraq War in 2004, Pence stepped up to do clean-up work, issuing a statement calling Captain Human Khan a “hero” and making all the respectful noises we expect out of a major party candidate to make when asked about soldiers who die in battle.

Pence has since dug in, using his rally time to praise Captain Khan and grab headlines that read far more like the ones you’d get in a typical election cycle, where candidates busy themselves praising our troops for their service instead of hinting that their parents are secretly terrorist sympathizers.

But journalists should not give into the temptation to allow Pence to hoodwink them into thinking he’s the true voice of the campaign.

Am looking forward to Pence's attempt to turn this '2nd Amendment folks' thing into something less... death threat-y.
posted by palindromic at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

So, off the back deck of my house, I look out onto the next street over in my neighborhood, where there is an empty lot. There used to be a house there. The house was torn down a few years ago, because it was the site of the ambush and killing of three police officers, and the terrorizing of my entire neighborhood, in 2009, a few months after Obama took office. The shooter was a white supremacist ammosexual twerp who was convinced (as many white supremacists have been over the past 8 years) that Obama was going to "abolish the 2nd amendment."

Ever since that morning I've been A LITTLE JUMPY about politicians implying that any politician can just abolish an amendment and come and remove all however-many-million-I-don't-care guns there are in private hands in this country, because all it is is a goddamn dog-whistle invitation for people to shoot some shit up with the blessing of whomever is pouring that poison in the ears of a bunch of scaredy white wangs.

So, once again, this time with feeling: FUCK THAT GUY.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [82 favorites]

i have to stop checking 538 polling results because full-blown erections at work are embarrassing
posted by Tevin at 12:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

Suggesting that someone should go murder your opponent is bad enough when you haven't been arguing that she is not merely incompetent or too liberal, but in fact hates America and is working to destroy it for her own personal gain
posted by theodolite at 12:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Conservatives who have claimed they are defending the 2nd Amendment have been threatening "2nd Amendment solutions" for decades. Hillary's not even the first Clinton who had a powerful GOP official use that rhetoric against them. It's not the new normal, it's been completely normalized as acceptable behavior from both them and supporters for years now.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

so, this is where the republican party becomes a terrorist organization?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Man, this is going to be a spectacular pivot.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

Newt Gingrich defends Trump: I mean, he is at least as reliable as Andrew Jackson, who was one of the most decisive presidents in American history.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:49 PM on August 9, 2016

(Sorry, just posted the "second amendment" article at the same time everyone else did.)
posted by roll truck roll at 12:49 PM on August 9, 2016

If pivoting 360 to the center isn't doing it maybe he needs to be pivoting 720 to the center.
posted by vuron at 12:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Who sends 33,000 emails?" says Trump, who doesn't use email it all.

Then wtf does he do all day? How does he "run" his businesses? I've reviewed tens of thousands of emails in the course of discovery for various civil lawsuits, one of which involved a fairly large company and one which involved a smallish mom-and-pop type business. Even the small business had hundreds of emails going in and out on a weekly basis, and the emails from the big company included C-level executives. That volume of emails is nowhere close to remarkable to me, or I'd wager to anyone with an email-heavy job.
posted by yasaman at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

so, this is where the republican party becomes a terrorist organization?

"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw the Republican Party forever...."
posted by entropicamericana at 12:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump Exposes Trump

I don't want to bring back the awkward mental illness discussion, but watching this video, "old Trump" seems noticeably smarter than "new Trump". That stood out for me more than the hypocrisy, which I was already quite familiar with.
posted by mmoncur at 12:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

@darth
"lets be sure to focus on that guys father who showed up at hillary's public event that is huge news right n..."
posted by acidic at 12:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

And here's the walkback on the 2nd amendment comment:

a Trump spokesperson is saying she thinks he meant that the NRA (which she called the most powerful lobbying organization in the US) could use its pressure to prevent her from getting elected or fulfilling her agenda.
posted by diogenes at 12:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh what! Gingrich is actually comparing Trump to Jackson and trying to make that seem positive?

I bet that is the sort of language that will make outreach to First Nations members really easy.
posted by vuron at 12:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's not like any misogynist conspiracy theorists have shot any congresswomen recently, or anything
posted by theodolite at 12:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [70 favorites]

It's not like any misogynist conspiracy theorists have shot any congresswomen recently, or anything

Or MPs...
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:54 PM on August 9, 2016 [60 favorites]

How does he "run" his businesses?

I think you mean, how does he run his "businesses"?

As far as I can tell the whole Trump enterprise is basically at the same level as when I used to build little villages in the sandbox* and requires about the same level of email usage.

It's just that he started out with a few hundred million bucks and all I had was some beach sand and a mental model of minas tirith

*to clarify: this was some years ago
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Do we really need a national-scale reenactment of that Atwood quote about men being afraid women will laugh at them
posted by theodolite at 12:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

I bet that is the sort of language that will make outreach to First Nations members really easy.

The First Nations will certainly be smacked in the face at this weird and new misplaced affection for the guy on the $20 bill
posted by beerperson at 12:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton camp calls Trump's comments "dangerous," says a candidate "should not suggest violence in any way"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Trump campaign responds to 2nd Amendment line
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Whoever had August as the month Trump would dogwhistle a death threat against Clinton has won the pool. I had October.
posted by tclark at 1:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Betcha those 2nd Amendment boys can take care of that dadgum "dishonest media", too.
posted by yhbc at 1:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holy shit that response would be hilarious if this were an episode of any number of politically themed middlebrow television programs.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's not like any misogynist conspiracy theorists have shot any congresswomen recently, or anything

Or MPs...

Or female heads of state.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

That statement is titled "Trump campaign statement on dishonest media."

This isn't a media thing. Watch the video. There's a man sitting behind Trump who literally has his mouth agape after hearing Trump's 2nd Amendment comment. And he certainly didn't have any time for the media to tell him what to think.
posted by zachlipton at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

TRUMP: *fwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeee* I'm dogwhistling. Can you hear me dogwhistling? *fwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeee*

MANAFORT: Actually a dogwhistle is when you--

TRUMP: *FWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [58 favorites]

I think the "October surprise" is the new "Clinton will be indicted by the FBI.." Also if they had a surprise, why are they saying anything. Not much of a surprise attack when you tell everyone you are going to do it.
posted by humanfont at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here's Trump saying that maybe "the 2nd Amendment folks" can maybe prevent Hillary from choosing judges.


They'll regulate her militia, IYKWIM.

(AITYD.)
posted by dersins at 1:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't want to bring back the awkward mental illness discussion, but watching this video, "old Trump" seems noticeably smarter than "new Trump". That stood out for me more than the hypocrisy, which I was already quite familiar with.

I think an explanation that moves away from mental illness (although, hey, it's possible) is that trump is in his element when he can freely say whatever he thinks the listener wants to hear, and when the interviewer is treating him like a lovable joke. Once he gets questioned or called on his beliefs in any way, it seems like he has trouble operating, which I think leads to a lot of the word salad, and the bold faced contradictions. trump got a pass throughout much of the Republican primary season, and once the questions got hotter (like during the debates, especially as they winnowed down to the main 4), he was already in a position where it didn't matter, or he was able to use his personality to deflect. Now it's down to 2, and he actually has to put forward the Republican platform. His rhetorical tricks are far less effective, and such as they work, they work on people who represent his floor of support.
posted by codacorolla at 1:05 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think the "October surprise" is the new "Clinton will be indicted by the FBI.."

paging user 15312... user 15312, please come over here and explain yourself
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:05 PM on August 9, 2016

There's a man sitting behind Trump who literally has his mouth agape after hearing

And then he kind of does an "Oh snap ahahahahaha" face alongside the woman guffawing next to him. So, like, let's not give that dude too much credit for his outstanding moral compass.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think the "October surprise" is the new "Clinton will be indicted by the FBI.." Also if they had a surprise, why are they saying anything. Not much of a surprise attack when you tell everyone you are going to do it.

Assange, Stone, and the fringe media are certainly posturing as such. I agree - if they have a bombshell, then they should probably use it. Clinton being +10 in PA in Quinnipiac seems like the sort of thing that's nearly impossible to recover from. What could they be waiting for?

That leads me to believe that a) they have nothing and are sowing doubt for the sake of sowing doubt, or b) they realized that what they have isn't particularly useful or shocking.

Assuming that they actually have an October surprise also means that you buy into the idea that Clinton has covered up something damning, and I honestly think that means buying into a lot of kookie right wing conspiracy theory that is just plainly untrue.
posted by codacorolla at 1:09 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

@samsteinhp: Trump spin says he meant 2nd Amendmenters could stop Clinton's election.

His comment was about stopping nominees she’d have after election
posted by zombieflanders at 1:09 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Losing US military lives has never been a check on the hawks or their inclination to be hawkish.

If memory serves me correctly, when the US military had Osama bin Laden cornered in Tora Bora, the stated reason for not sending in the military to finish him off was that the American people would disapprove if the casualties were too high (this is pre-Iraq War, you understand, and I thought the argument was a load of hogwash at the time, too).

But speaking of Iraq, part of the reason it was such a tragedy is that George W. Bush really, actually wasn't willing to ask the American people to pay the necessary price to support his Excellent Adventure. That's why National Guard units were deployed over there far longer than expected and regular troops served multiple tours -- the aftershocks of which we're only beginning to deal with.

He also wasn't willing to ask the US taxpayer for dime one to finance the war. No, he paid for the war with a tax cut, and put the tab on the national credit card.

So I disagree -- the lesson of the Vietnam War was indeed well learned. Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Citizen will not accept the tens of thousands of casualties (and ongoing casualties with no end in sight, just like Iraq was turning into). That's why Republicans -- you know, the so-called "strong on defense" party -- ever since have run their wars on the cheap.
posted by Gelatin at 1:10 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Politically Re-active with W. Kamau Bell & Hari Kondabolu had an interesting episode with Ian Haney López where Lopez discussed how dog whistles work, and that they are more complicated than they seem, because not only do they need to offer the candidate reasonable deniability that he was saying what we all know what he was saying, but they also need to give his followers reasonable deniability that they are not racists, or sexist, or whatever the dog whistle is playing into. They want to believe that they support Trump because he's actually trying to keep out terrorists, not because he and his followers have decided it is all right to demonize Muslims.

The trouble with Trump is that he has no finesse here. And so after a while the supporters who are engaged in self-denial must start saying, well, crap, this is just racism. Am I actually a racist?

And he just keeps heaping it on. Now his supporters must say, well, jeez, I thought we were all on the same page that it is the other side that is violent, that we were forcefully ejecting potentially violent protestors, and that Hillary was the one who kills political opponents. But now I am starting to think that maybe Trump wants real violence, and maybe I did too, and, oh jeez, cognitive dissonance crashing ....

That's how you go from national frontrunner to a guy with a parking lot full of red-faced, screaming men with Confederate flags and no chance of winning an election. I just wish it were possible, once he's gone, to make the guys in the parking lots go away, but he's given them a place to grow, like a disease.
posted by maxsparber at 1:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

I know there will be no real consequences for that line but it must really piss off the Secret Service, which is not a super great plan when they are also protecting you??
posted by theodolite at 1:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

diogenes: "And here's the walkback on the 2nd amendment comment:
"

its like watching a child pick mushrooms out of a salad
posted by boo_radley at 1:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [29 favorites]

I don't want to bring back the awkward mental illness discussion

Let's not, please, especially in the same kind of "Well, I'm just saying, some people may think..." talk that Trump himself is using right now.
posted by Etrigan at 1:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Brian Beutler: Trump’s “joke” about a violent coup-slash-assassination is fine due to the possibility of tax cuts, apparently

If past is prologue, GOP leaders like Paul Ryan will condemn the comment, but not the candidate, because helping to elect Hillary Clinton, and giving up the dream of supply side tax cuts, would be worse than supporting a guy who makes jokes about armed revolt and presidential (or is it judicial?) assassination.

This isn’t a new problem for the GOP. Back in 2010, when then-Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid was facing a tough reelection campaign, his Tea Party opponent Sharron Angle appeared on conservative talk radio and warned, “I’m hoping that we’re not getting to Second Amendment remedies. I hope the vote will be the cure for the Harry Reid problems.” Angle was widely condemned and went on to lose in a winnable race that embarrasses the party to this day. But for Republicans, the past six years haven’t been defined by learning from obvious mistakes.

posted by zombieflanders at 1:17 PM on August 9, 2016 [30 favorites]

I think he meant you could shoot the judges.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think he meant you could shoot the judges.

Phew, I guess that makes it OK then. Paul Ryan -- here's your out!
posted by tclark at 1:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think he meant you could shoot the judges.

Because that's better?

Anyway, as some on Twitter have noticed, Trump praised an adviser who called for Clinton to be shot by firing squad just three days ago.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey remember when Trump said 'titties' on live TV. What was that? Like a day ago?
posted by PenDevil at 1:22 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

In a letter I received from you two weeks ago
I noticed a comma in the middle of a phrase
It changed the meaning. Did you intend this?
One stroke and you’ve consumed my waking days
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:22 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Somewhere, somebody is composing a think-piece about how liberal-created PC Culture is why we can't make jokes about shooting our political opponents anymore and that's exactly why people want to hear more jokes about shooting political opponents.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

I poked my head into /r/the_donald to see if they were talking about the 2nd amendment remarks (they mostly weren't afaict) and came across this amusing exchange, which I will paraphrase in order to not repeat offensive language:

POSTER: Hey should we be phonebanking
COMMENTER 1: lol
COMMENTER 2: no
COMMENTER 3: lol no
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [56 favorites]

Somewhere, somebody is composing a think-piece about how liberal-created PC Culture is why we can't make jokes about shooting our political opponents anymore and that's exactly why people want to hear more jokes about shooting political opponents.

Somewhere, somebody wrote that years ago and has been waiting to dust it off. Just watch to see if they forget to replace "Obama" with "Clinton".
posted by Etrigan at 1:25 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm looking forward to another round of half-assed denunciations from Ryan, McConnell, etc. that redefine the phrase "mealy-mouthed."
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Somewhere, somebody is composing a think-piece about how liberal-created PC Culture is why we can't make jokes about shooting our political opponents anymore and that's exactly why people want to hear more jokes about shooting political opponents.

$5 on it being from Milo Yiannopolous and the gamergate/puppies/etc crowd lapping it up per usual.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I poked my head into /r/the_donald to see if they were talking about the 2nd amendment remarks (they mostly weren't afaict) and came across this amusing exchange, which I will paraphrase in order to not repeat offensive language:

POSTER: Hey should we be phonebanking
COMMENTER 1: lol
COMMENTER 2: no
COMMENTER 3: lol no

I sometimes wonder if maybe trump is right, and he can win an election with no actual volunteer base or ground game, and then I'm like "nah".
posted by codacorolla at 1:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Okay, yeah, I'm horrified. I'm also waiting with a sick stomach for how the fucker tops himself, 'cause he seems to have an infinite knack for it.
posted by Mooski at 1:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Or alternately we could become a sane country and have a real, healthy liberal opposition to a social-democratic majority.

Is it open mic night already? I gotta bunch of sick knock-knock and yo-mama stuff I been wanting to try out
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:30 PM on August 9, 2016

The Second Amendment comment is the top story on CNN now. Surely this will cause another flurry of sane GOP people to defect? It's very interesting watching what the last straw is for each person.
posted by gatorae at 1:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

The relationship between Republicans and Trump
posted by chaoticgood at 1:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

@realdonaldtrump has changed ‘The Party of Lincoln’ into ‘The Party of John Wilkes Booth’
posted by argybarg at 1:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [74 favorites]

ew NPR said he encouraged 2nd amendment folks should "defeat" Clinton
which of course if you equate death as the ultimate defeat.
then NPR was like well what did he meeeeean

he means he wants somebody with a gun could shoot her in the head. there is no other interpretation
posted by angrycat at 1:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

"Mr. Trump was saying exactly what he said. Hillary Clinton is a gun grabber." (CNN video)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:34 PM on August 9, 2016

But what a fucking weak headline on CNN - Trump calls out to gun owners? What did he call out? What did he call for them to do? Can't the media just report what happened?
posted by peacheater at 1:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

codacorolla: "I sometimes wonder if maybe trump is right, and he can win an election with no actual volunteer base or ground game, and then I'm like "nah".

I can't imagine that any good would come from Trump supporters calling people or knocking on doors. They'd probably get into screaming fights with people on the phone or fist-fights while they were out canvassing.
posted by octothorpe at 1:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Can't the media just report what happened?

Trick is, if they do they're repeating the "shoot Hillary" dogwhistle.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

NPR is skating the melted edge of me never donating another dime.
posted by Mooski at 1:37 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm also waiting with a sick stomach for how the fucker tops himself ...

Just yesterday, Eugene Robinson wrote "This campaign could get worse — a lot worse. Here’s why." Abstract: As Trump continues to fail, he's going to double down on everything he thinks appeals to his core supporters.

I don't doubt it. If he continues to fail—and it seems likely that he will—he'll be into the serious Alex Jones shit in another month. By October he might just be grunting and rending his flesh.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

I just assumed he meant he hoped the NRA lobby would be as successful shutting down future judicial nominees as they were with Merrick Garland (who is widely considered anti-gun by the right).
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 1:40 PM on August 9, 2016

Maybe the 15th and 19th amendment folks can prevent Trump from choosing judges.
posted by phunniemee at 1:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [41 favorites]

They'd probably get into screaming fights with people on the phone or fist-fights while they were out canvassing.

I saw that Reddit thread on the Sanders campaign too.
posted by tclark at 1:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, so is the October Surprise going to be the revelation that Clinton had a DNC employee murdered for leaking sensitive material? Guys, it's not an October Surprise if you say it in August!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:41 PM on August 9, 2016

Oh man, I'd forgotten mefi went to bat for Henry Kissinger this morning.

The thread has move on since then, but the Trial of Henry Kissinger by Chris Hitchens is a well written brief on Kissinger that you can read in one sitting.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:42 PM on August 9, 2016

is the October Surprise going to be the revelation that Clinton had a DNC employee murdered for leaking sensitive material?

I liked "The Clintons murdered Vince Foster" better the first time. That's the problem with this generation: everything's a reboot.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

NYT is on it now.
posted by guiseroom at 1:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

The liberal media has given him a pass on the "Lock Her Up" and "Trump That Bitch" chants / merchandise, so why not let a flat-out call for Clinton's assassination slide too? Clinton conspiracy fan fiction is currently dominating the Amazon sales charts. The Fail Truck in my neighborhood has a "Hillary For Prison" sticker on the bumper. There is an entire industry built up around telling Shitty White Guys that the Clintons - Hillary in particular - is pulling a fast one on them. You keep waving a bloody shirt at a mob, eventually they'll want to see some up close.

I stopped expecting to ever see the bottom of Trump and the GOP's depravity but goddamn, he still managed to surprise me today. Let's see what mush-mouthed talking point Ryan and the party make of this. Let's look forward to the Newtsplanation for this latest outrage.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Points to locked-up bicycle - there's no way to get that bike except with a set of bolt cutters.

By which I mean, you can wait for the bike's owner to show up, and then offer to trade him your bolt cutters for his bike. We're going to make some incredible deals folks, incredible deals. China's going to give us four bikes for every set of bolt cutters we make. Incredible.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

MSNBC is leading with the even-more-pusilanimous "Trump campaign defends 2nd Amendment comment." Miserable.
posted by argybarg at 1:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Maybe the 15th and 19th amendment folks can prevent Trump from choosing judges.

If they can't, I'll certainly be taking solace in the 21st amendment.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Jon Favreau: What to remember when the Trump comeback begins.

Again, the final tally could be much closer, but we should remember that Trump’s current predicament is not the result of any one gaffe or misstep or string of bad luck — it’s the result of an actual campaign that Hillary’s running very well and Trump is running very poorly. I’m convinced that if Donald Trump and his entire staff were replaced tomorrow with a drunken Fox News viewer chosen at random, that person would probably run a better campaign. It’s a level of ineptitude that relieves me as a citizen, but offends me as a political professional.

In a similar vein: Keepin' it 1600: Trump's Bubble, GOPers for Hillary, and the "Poller Coaster", discussing last weeks events.
posted by ltl at 1:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I stopped expecting to ever see the bottom of Trump and the GOP's depravity but goddamn, he still managed to surprise me today. Let's see what mush-mouthed talking point Ryan and the party make of this. Let's look forward to the Newtsplanation for this latest outrage.

Ryan's primary is tonight. If he wins let's see what he says.
posted by Talez at 1:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh, so is the October Surprise going to be the revelation that Clinton had a DNC employee murdered for leaking sensitive material? Guys, it's not an October Surprise if you say it in August!

Christing fuck has Assange ever turned out to be an even more garbage-y garbage person than I'd thought.

Seriously, to call him a useless piece of shit is an insult to both uselessness and pieces of shit.
posted by dersins at 1:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [41 favorites]

I'm also waiting with a sick stomach for how the fucker tops himself

I reeeeeally don't think his um fingers are long enough to do this
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

As the cornerstone of PBS for decades, "Sesame Street" has occasionally been maligned as a vessel for indoctrinating children with progressive values, but it's hard to recall a more overtly direct hit at a conservative figure than the Donald Grump sketch.

Except that sketch aired in 2005, when Trump was identified chiefly as a pop-culture phenomenon with easily ridiculed qualities, and only very distantly if at all as a conservative figure.

Sure, unearthing that clip now is a politically motivated move, but it's blatant dishonesty to suggest the original sketch was openly political.
posted by jackbishop at 1:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

Christing fuck has Assange ever turned out to be an even more garbage-y garbage person than I'd thought.

My slightly warmed-over take on it is he's an acclerationist. The sooner he can get a human negative integer into the White House, the sooner everything implodes.
posted by Mooski at 1:52 PM on August 9, 2016

I half expect Trump to start calling for The Purge.

"You know I saw this movie and for one night, everyone could do whatever they wanted. Everyone got it out of their system. There was no crime, no problems. People were able to air out their greivances with one another, it was all *VERY* cathartic. I think we could do that here and stop a YUUUUUUUGE amount of crime." [fake]
posted by Talez at 1:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

NYT seems to be going with the Trump campaign "explanation" in their headline.

Also, it's funny but I remember when MF loved Assange.
posted by OmieWise at 1:54 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Christing fuck has Assange ever turned out to be an even more garbage-y garbage person than I'd thought.

Remember, you can't spell Assange without "an ass."
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:55 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

A solid majority of white American men still support Trump?
posted by pracowity at 1:56 PM on August 9, 2016

"Mr. Trump was saying exactly what he said. Hillary Clinton is a gun grabber."

Ah, I see. The "she was going for my gun" excuse.
posted by NMcCoy at 1:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [40 favorites]

Washington Post: Trump appears to encourage gun owners to take action if Clinton appoints anti-gun judges
posted by kirkaracha at 1:57 PM on August 9, 2016

One hour until Trump's rally in Fayetteville, NC, starts. There's tons of open space and no line waiting outside. (twitter)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sarah Glidden at The Nib: “Spoiler: On The Campaign Trail With Jill Stein”
posted by Going To Maine at 1:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, it's funny but I remember when MF loved Assange.

Collateral Murder and Cablegate etc. are in the past. What has he done for us lately, right?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I saw an NRA mailer the other day that said, "ENTER A RAFFLE TO WIN ONE OF THESE WEAPONS THAT CLINTON WILL BAN" and then the mailer had pictures of big huge fucking gun after huge fucking gun

I mean it's not surprising but this stupid country
posted by angrycat at 1:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Will no one rid me of this meddlesome presidential candidate?"
posted by kirkaracha at 1:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

Even Drudge has it now, sandwiched between all of his anti-Hillary conspiracy theories.
posted by guiseroom at 1:59 PM on August 9, 2016

Donors for Bush, Kasich and Christie Are Turning to Clinton More Than to Trump:

Of the donors who gave at least $200 to Jeb Bush, Gov. John Kasich, Gov. Chris Christie or Senator Lindsey Graham in the Republican primaries, more of them have also contributed to Mrs. Clinton than to Mr. Trump, according to Federal Election Commission filings through June.

posted by kirkaracha at 2:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

“The Secret Service is aware of the comment." (cite)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just assumed he meant he hoped the NRA lobby would be as successful shutting down future judicial nominees as they were with Merrick Garland (who is widely considered anti-gun by the right).

C'mon, now, let's not fall for his spin like the media does. The context and ordering of his statements make it pretty clear what he thought, and those familiar with political violence are saying this is exactly what they hear from groups that have assassinated their cohorts.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

From that theringer.com article, something to keep in mind when dealing with Busters:

Unlike Trump, she also won over voters who backed her opponent in the primary, and is now winning between 85–90 percent of Bernie supporters.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:04 PM on August 9, 2016

Tonight's rally will probably feature Trump complaining about the Secret Service infringing on his first amendment rights.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:06 PM on August 9, 2016

538 disagrees: About A Third Of Bernie Sanders’s Supporters Still Aren’t Backing Hillary Clinton
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:07 PM on August 9, 2016

Even if people buy that he didn't mean to threaten her, how can they not be terrified at the idea of electing someone president who is such an epically bad communicator that he accidentally implied he wanted people to assassinate his opponent? I don't mean his core of racist monsters, but the Paul Ryans and Mitch McConnell's, etc.? If this isn't a bridge too far then I don't think anything will be.
posted by gatorae at 2:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

for christ's sake it's not even Labor Day yet, how are we going to make it to november
posted by murphy slaw at 2:08 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

surely THIS
posted by town of cats at 2:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

As long as Trump's threats and insults are directed against the Other, there is literally nothing he can say that will discourage his core supporters. They are nihilists. If they can't have their privilege, then they're willing to burn everything to the ground to spite those who would take it.

There is no bridge too far when you want to see carnage and upheaval.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

"One of the hardest jobs in politics must be cleaning up after @JoeBiden gaffes. I feel sorry for his spokespeople."
posted by guiseroom at 2:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

538 disagrees: About A Third Of Bernie Sanders’s Supporters Still Aren’t Backing Hillary Clinton

Before we get to all the data, let’s be clear about what we’re discussing: The Sanders holdouts aren’t that large a group. If they were forced to choose only between Clinton and Trump, the vast majority would choose Clinton and yet they would add only about 1 percentage point to her overall margin over Trump, according to current polls. That could matter in a close election, but the election isn’t looking all that close at the moment.

posted by Rustic Etruscan at 2:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump rolls out “Gold Executive Membership Card” for donors.

So Hillary donors can get the woman card; Trump donors can get a faux credit card. Both are markers of status, I guess, but they each speak volumes about the choices of each campaign - not just in terms of donor recognition, but in terms of actual policy and direction.
posted by nubs at 2:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

538 Statistical Polling Model - Pretty solid although I think the Nowcast has basically zero value
538 Punditry - Lol Nope not even remotely decent, go back to moneyballing sports guys
posted by vuron at 2:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

David Robinson of Stack Overflow on his blog: “Text analysis of Trump's tweets confirms he writes only the (angrier) Android half”
(Related: @realrealDonaldT)
posted by Going To Maine at 2:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

But I absolutely want a real adult 49% conservative opposition to a liberal majority. It's completely necessary for a healthy government. Without that the Democrats will just become corrupt and implode. Checks and balances, they're for everyone.

Sure, sure. But, should we get a super-liberal government, could we just hold off on the conservative checks and balances until after I get my government-issued electric car with a trunk full of medical cannabis?
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

About A Third Of Bernie Sanders’s Supporters Still Aren’t Backing Hillary Clinton

That article also shows the discrepancy in reporting that we see. If you only include Clinton and Trump, up to 91% back Clinton depending on poll. Lots of polls/reporting only cover them, so you get the "90% of Bernie supporters back Hillary".

If you inlcude third party, it drops by a lot, so you get closer to 2/3 of Bernie supporters backing Hillary.

While the actual election of course includes third party, I've also seen a lot of analysis that shows people tend to overreport their willingness to vote third party (in polls, they say they want Green or Libertarian, but actual vote totals show that people pull the lever for D or R in the end).
posted by thefoxgod at 2:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

"One of the hardest jobs in politics must be cleaning up after @JoeBiden gaffes. I feel sorry for his spokespeople."

I know! Joe Biden! He comes out supporting gay marriage. YUUUUUUUUUGE mistake. Next he'll be saying that it doesn't matter what bathroom a trans person uses!
posted by Talez at 2:17 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sure, sure. But, should we get a super-liberal government, could we just hold off on the conservative checks and balances until after I get my government-issued electric car with a trunk full of medical cannabis?

Man, I want to elect the Democratic Party you're in.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 2:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Me too.
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh you've done it now Stack Overflow, now Ivanka is going to have to switch from her iPhone to a stinky android smartphone just so you guys won't out her.
posted by vuron at 2:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

538's own Polls Plus incorporates the outsized early lead of third party candidates, so they should know better.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:19 PM on August 9, 2016

Mod note: One deleted; please drop the Assange thing.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:21 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sure, sure. But, should we get a super-liberal government, could we just hold off on the conservative checks and balances until after I get my government-issued electric car with a trunk full of medical cannabis?

You’re talking about a super liberal government but still only expect to get medical cannabis? Oh, how far to the right the country has drifted!
posted by Going To Maine at 2:21 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

i had a dude on twitter tell me this was shorthand for being interested in the constitution

what kind of garbage is this

"as a 2nd amendment person, I'm very concerned about the federal debt"

"because I'm an NRA member, I think Puerto Rico should be granted statehood"

none of these make sense, please teach your candidate to speak in full sentences and not to interrupt himself in the middle of a single thought.
posted by boo_radley at 2:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

> 538 Statistical Polling Model - Pretty solid although I think the Nowcast has basically zero value

I know people who get high off that thing like it's a crack rock soaked in heroin, so that's a form of value I suppose.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

From a chicken in every pot, to pot in every Tesla.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [32 favorites]

It has been  0 days since Donald Trump did something that would end the career of any other candidate.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [126 favorites]

Any polling that show either major third party getting more than 2% of the vote is seriously sketchy because yeah people say they are going to vote third party but they rarely actually do that.

Yes Trump is insane and Hillary is apparently a robot remotely controlled by the banks but it's not like either of the third party options are remotely appealing.

Libertarians - Zero charisma candidate plus wackadoodle economic policies
Green - Zero charisma candidate plus wackadoodle BIG SCIENCE skeptics

Plus you know everyone knows that a third party candidate is nonviable and who wants to vote for a protest candidate when you can jump on the bandwagon instead. You know how cities with teams in championship sports events somehow have about 1000% more fans suddenly even if average attendance was garbage most of the season that's basically US presidential elections. The only one going to all the elections during the off season (Midterms and State and Local elections) are the diehard fans and suddenly you got some sports star with a big infectious grin and a message of Hope and suddenly everyone is a part of team Dem.

All but the most stubborn (and misogynistic) BoBs will be pulling the lever for Clinton in November because Stein and Johnson are garbage candidates and who really wants to vote for someone who shows absolutely zero capability of actually inspiring people.
posted by vuron at 2:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Current polling is useless now, when are we going to see some new polls that include

[scrolls way up]

...Evan McMullin?
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [33 favorites]

You should make that post into a dynamic web site kirkaracha because that's going to be something you are going to have to post daily otherwise.
posted by vuron at 2:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

As an NRA member I think chili shouldn't have beans in it. There I said it. FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 2:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Re Trump's 2nd amendment comment, here's what I posted in the other (now unbearably long) thread:

I am a gun owner. The statement is unmistakeable. I am quite certain he is not calling for me to vote. (Note also the timing for this supposed vote -- AFTER HRC is elected and nominates SCOTUS justices. What "vote" would anyone have then?)

I'm also a lifetime NRA member -- my dad signed me up when I was a kid. I'm real clear he wasn't referring to the NRA lobby either.
posted by bearwife at 2:34 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

codacorolla: "I sometimes wonder if maybe trump is right, and he can win an election with no actual volunteer base or ground game, and then I'm like "nah"."

In a weird, perverse way, that would be the one and only good thing about a Trump presidency. It would prove that someone can still become president based just on their words, not their campaign strategy.
posted by roll truck roll at 2:35 PM on August 9, 2016

It has been 0 days since Donald Trump did something that would end the career of any other candidate.

Honestly, this seems like the sort of vague faux pas that some candidate who wasn’t Trump would be able to wave away as a mis-speaking. What’s amazing to me is that the day began with news about the Orlando shooter’s Dad being at a Clinton rally. Not scandalous in any way, but something that the Clinton folks were doing damage control on and that you could imagine being used to cast aspersions on her character. Needless to say, that story is now down the memory hole.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:37 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

You should make that post into a dynamic web site kirkaracha because that's going to be something you are going to have to post daily otherwise.

Pretty sure a static "0" would work throughout the campaign.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:37 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

It would prove that someone can still become president based just on their words, not their campaign strategy.

Truly inspiring how lies, conspiracies, and bald appeals to idiot nativism and xenophobia can make ur dreams come true
posted by theodolite at 2:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

In a weird, perverse way, that would be the one and only good thing about a Trump presidency. It would prove that someone can still become president based just on their words, not their campaign strategy.

this is the most ridiculously optimistic thing i've heard since that guy in napoleon's army said "we are not retreating from moscow, comrades, we are advancing on paris!"
posted by murphy slaw at 2:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Washington Post: Trump appears to encourage gun owners to take action if Clinton appoints anti-gun judges

They have another story filed earlier in their "The Fix" section, which has a looser editorial tone: Donald Trump says ‘Second Amendment people’ may be the only check on Clinton judicial appointments

To be very clear: Trump is referring to remedies for judicial picks made by Hillary Clinton once she takes office. The remedy he proposes is that the "Second Amendment people" -- gun owners -- deal with it. There are at least two plausible ways to read this: Either Trump is casually suggesting that a sitting president could be shot or he's arguing that gun owners engage in armed conflict with federal officials sent to collect their weapons.

posted by peeedro at 2:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

Yeah, seconding bearwife and my own comment from the other thread:

As a gun owner and target shooter who has spent time on gun forums, "2nd Amendment solution" means shooting people / organizations. Its one of the justifications regularly given by the extreme/NRA gun types, that they need guns to protect themselves against the government (always seems laughable to me, if the government wants me dead they can launch a missile from a drone and vaporize my house, and even a pile of ARs isn't going to do anything...). This is often called a "2nd Amendement solution".

In other words, classic dogwhistling (even if it is a defective dogwhistle that humans can kinda hear too). It might be ambiguous to the general public, but it is a familiar phrase/idea to those in or familiar with right-wing gun culture. (Those of us who are recreational shooters but also liberal are used to hearing extreme/crazy right wing rhetoric even just hanging out at a range or an a forum ostensibly about the more mundane elements of gun ownership/usage/care).
posted by thefoxgod at 2:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

It would prove that someone can still become president based just on their words, not their campaign strategy.

Truly inspiring how lies, conspiracies, and bald appeals to idiot nativism and xenophobia can make ur dreams come true

Also the decades of built up name recognition, the personal jet and network of properties and the backstop of extreme wealth [of some amount] to see the campaign through difficult times.
posted by EatTheWeek at 2:42 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

As an NRA member I think chili shouldn't have beans in it. There I said it.

I respect your position, but you're totally wrong. Unless you're talking about chili dogs, maybe we can find common ground there. If there's anything I learned from Jimmy Carter on King of the Hill it's that you can always find common ground.
posted by bongo_x at 2:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Orlando shooter’s father spotted at Clinton rally (Washington Post)

Jesus, this should have been a goddamn miracle gift-wrapped for the Trump campaign. (Note: not talking about the merits, just how it would play). Any competent campaign would be running the pictures of the Orlando shooter's dad with the Clinton sign into the ground, propping it back up, making a campaign ad to run in the battleground states with it, and then running it into the ground again.

Instead Trump threatens violence to stop Clinton from appointing judges. Which is the exact opposite; another perfect example for the Clinton campaign of how Trump cannot be let anywhere near the levers of power. It also happens to be, on its merits, an incredibly dangerous and awful thing for Trump to have done. Disqualifying in and of itself.

It's surreal. Trump... he just can't help it.
posted by Justinian at 2:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

I think the Nowcast has basically zero value

Not zero value. I like saying "Push the button, Frank," then going "Whee!"
posted by octobersurprise at 2:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Current polling is useless now, when are we going to see some new polls that include

[scrolls way up]

...Evan McMullin?

Egg McMuffins? Probably polling pretty well after the 24-hour breakfast rollout.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

All of this stuff. The Orlando shooter's dad, Clinton's incredibly idiotic gaffe soft-pedaling Comey's comments followed by the even stupider short-circuit line. Even the Iran stuff. If Trump could keep his mouth shut for 12 seconds, he could actually get a few minutes of press going sort of his way, but no. The story has to be all about him, and he'll interrupt it even if the story he's interrupting is a negative one about his opponent.
posted by zachlipton at 2:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bee makes a pointed point about Trump and CNN.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

God the Trump campaign is like a circus caught fire and no one is doing anything about it
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 2:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I do expect Trump to try to nail the Orlando shooter thing at some point, I hope and expect the Clinton camp has a response ready. Like... everybody with a brain knows you don't pick who is at your rallies but the optics of the guy standing just over Clinton's left shoulder as she gives her speech are really bad.

I assume she will point out that Trump himself threatened gun violence which you'd think would more than negate such an attack but...
posted by Justinian at 2:50 PM on August 9, 2016

Jesus, this should have been a goddamn miracle gift-wrapped for the Trump campaign.

Trump just has a innate knack for knowing when he's got a chance to one-up his opponent. With Clinton, it's rare, because she outclasses him in most regards, but whenever something goes wrong for the Clinton campaign, he realizes, that's his big chance to outdo them!
posted by aubilenon at 2:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

...Evan McMullin?


Who?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Egg?
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

God the Trump campaign is like a circus caught fire and no one is doing anything about it

That explains the odor of burning popcorn and greasepaint.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I look forward to taking the phrase "bad optics" out into the yard with a shovel after this election cycle.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Egg McGuffin
posted by a lungful of dragon at 2:54 PM on August 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

I recall seeing a clip a bit ago where Trump talked positively about Russiad and that they kill journalists there. If the mainstream media didn't take him to task for that one, I'm not sure anything will.
posted by fragmede at 2:54 PM on August 9, 2016

The video of Trump's threat is even more clear in context. There is no spinning this away.
posted by Justinian at 2:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Not to distract from one nominee giving barely concealed hints for the assassination of the other nominee, but Paul Ryan's primary is today. Nehlen is a longshot, but I wouldn't put it past this election season to see an upset.
posted by codacorolla at 2:59 PM on August 9, 2016

Circus fires are actually pretty awful; the tents used to be waterproofed with paraffin dissolved in gasoline, so just one misplaced cigarette and whoosh. Say what you will about a dumpster fire, but I doubt they've killed anyone.... yet.
posted by peeedro at 3:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

So if you thought the gloves were off before...

.@realDonaldTrump makes death threats because he's a pathetic coward who can’t handle the fact that he’s losing to a girl. --@elizabethforma (Verified Account)

Your reckless comments sound like a two-bit dictator, @realDonaldTrump. Not a man who wants to lead the greatest democracy on the planet. --@elizabethforma
posted by zachlipton at 3:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [78 favorites]

I recall seeing a clip a bit ago where Trump talked positively about Russiad and that they kill journalists there. If the mainstream media didn't take him to task for that one, I'm not sure anything will.

wait did this really happen I thought I was joking
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

goddamn, liz
posted by murphy slaw at 3:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

> The video of Trump's threat is even more clear in context. There is no spinning this away.

"That's not at all what he said, but as usual, what can we expect from the liberal MSM except more lies, spin and misinformation?" (Canadian readers may be amused to see the commenter refer to the National Post as "left-leaning.")

> Nehlen is a longshot, but I wouldn't put it past this election season to see an upset.

It'll have to be a hell of an upset.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Katrina Pierson(YT) attempting to... I'm not even sure what she's trying to do, walk it back a little bit. Didn't work.

"thats actually not what he was talking about because just before that he was saying what could happen, as you just said, what could happen.

he does not want that to happen and in order to stop that, people that support their 2nd amendment rights need to come together and get out there and stop Hillary Clinton from winning [...]"
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:04 PM on August 9, 2016

Really, "Trump Rallies Gun Supporters Against Clinton Presidency" is about the most pusillanimous possible way of describing what he actually said. I know better than to expect more from the Times at this point, I'm afraid, but I would hope they would at least have the courage to come up with a plain description of a widely-witnessed event. Bad!
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

God the Drumpf campaign is like a circus caught fire and no one is doing anything about it

Remember back when he was just a dumpster fire? Simpler times.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:05 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

.@realDonaldTrump makes death threats because he's a pathetic coward who can’t handle the fact that he’s losing to a girl. --@elizabethforma (Verified Account)

Your reckless comments sound like a two-bit dictator, @realDonaldTrump. Not a man who wants to lead the greatest democracy on the planet. --@elizabethforma


Warren is not fucking around.
posted by dersins at 3:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [34 favorites]

I look forward to taking the phrase "bad optics" out into the yard with a shovel after this election cycle.

Yeah, we need to recontextualize this. Let's touch base later.
posted by bongo_x at 3:08 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Maybe Trump saw this article and decided to do something about it:
Clinton Has Nearly Caught Up To Trump In Media Coverage

posted by murphy slaw at 3:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

You don't understand, he was up against the medal round of the Women's Gymnastics Team competition. He had to say something!
posted by palindromic at 3:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

And in the midst of all this, apparently the HFA people in NC are apparently poorly organized. I showed up to register people to vote today (an "Official Event" on hillaryclinton.com), and no one from the campaign showed up. I asked someone who worked at the restaurant where it was happening, and apparently this has been happening *twice a week for a month*.

I called the national HQ about it and the guy on the other end of the phone sounded pissed. Hopefully they can sort themselves out and capitalize on all of ^^^^^this.
posted by Maecenas at 3:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

I agree with others on the Quinnipiac polls; The PA one is simply great news for Clinton. On their face the Florida/Ohio polls (particularly Florida) seem like good news for Trump. But Q had much more favorable-for-Trump results in Florida than most pollsters in their last round of polls as well, so a 5 point shift towards Clinton is in line with other pollsters.

I'll have to look at the crosstabs. No idea why Q is more favorable in FL and OH than others.

Q having Trump down 10 in Pennsylvania is ridiculously bad for him. What is Trump's path without PA?
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on August 9, 2016

Seen on another site on Clinton ramping up campaigning in AZ and GA:

"Blood coming out of his Arizona, his Georgia, his...wherever."
posted by Talez at 3:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [60 favorites]

I asked someone who worked at the restaurant where it was happening, and apparently this has been happening *twice a week for a month*.

They may have made something a recurring event that was meant to be a one-time thing.
posted by dersins at 3:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Open racism and religious hatred and sexism
A willingness to abrogate our alliances and our treaties as if the United States' signature on legal documents was nothing
Strong ties to an unfriendly major power and a willingness to parrot its foreign policy line
The corrupt selection of contributors as economic advisors -- and an economic plan that is mostly a gift to the 1%
A reckless, terrifying fascination with the actual use of nuclear weapons
Contempt for our veterans and their families
Incitement of violence, a commitment to torture (including harm to innocent family members), and open invitation to assassination

HRC is right, there is no bottom. And this is the real Donald Trump.
posted by bearwife at 3:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

> Even if people buy that he didn't mean to threaten her, how can they not be terrified at the idea of electing someone president who is such an epically bad communicator

My first thought was that this didn't sound like Trump-- Sarah Palin, yes-- but not Trump. I'm wondering if this was a scripted moment and if so, who scripted it?

By the way, Rolling Stone is not afraid to use the "A" word: Donald Trump Hints at Hillary Clinton Assassination


...Evan McMullin?

Who?

Oh I know this. Wait. Ummmm It's the guy who wrote the 87th Precinct novels.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Nothing in (somewhat lacking) available crosstabs of the Q poll strikes me as obviously off kilter. So it must be that their likely voter screen is a bit more favorable to Trump than the other pollster's likely voter screens. Here's hoping Q is the one thats wrong.
posted by Justinian at 3:19 PM on August 9, 2016

So basically Trump is doing the "grown-up" equivalent of upending the board game when it looks clear that you are going to get routed by your little sister.

"UHH MY HANDS SLIPPED! I GUESS WE'LL NEED TO PLAY A NEW GAME!"

Pathetic. And now the MSM is like a scolding parent asking Donald what he did to start a fight and he's like I didn't do anything it's her fault.

Too bad someone can't seem to put him into time out.
posted by vuron at 3:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

.@realDonaldTrump makes death threats because he's a pathetic coward who can’t handle the fact that he’s losing to a girl. --@elizabethforma (Verified Account)

Notice how Warren doesn't bother trying to debate about whether Trump actually made a death threat and gets right into talking about why he made the death threat that he obviously made.
posted by straight at 3:21 PM on August 9, 2016 [61 favorites]

Q having Trump down 10 in Pennsylvania is ridiculously bad for him. What is Trump's path without PA?

Assuming that Virginia is now safe? The Upshot to the rescue. He needs all of Florida, Ohio, Georgia, North Carolina, Arizona, and Missouri. And three of Colorado, Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada. (Possibly only two if he picks up an odd seat from the split states).
posted by Francis at 3:23 PM on August 9, 2016

i don't think that's a particularly good tweet if it's aimed at the voting public, but it's a perfect tweet if you're trying to goad donald trump into doubling down or something even stupider than that
posted by murphy slaw at 3:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

I want the news to focus more on the fact that his meaning is up for debate at all. Nothing a president says should be that vague and ambiguous, especially if it can be interpreted as a call for violence. Trump defenders claim his strength is that he says what he means and a straight talker. Why are they all of a sudden falling over themselves to explain what he "actually" meant? Why can't he explain himself right now?
posted by like_neon at 3:25 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

I don't think Elizabeth Warren is aiming at the voting public. She's aiming directly at Trump's ego and his tiny hands.
posted by zachlipton at 3:25 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

i don't think that's a particularly good tweet

Blunt outrage is absolutely right and called for and anybody who doesn't get that is beyond the Democrats' reach as a voter.
posted by chris24 at 3:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Too bad someone can't seem to put him into time out.

Donald For The Corner For Five Minutes
posted by NMcCoy at 3:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

ew NPR said he encouraged 2nd amendment folks should "defeat" Clinton
which of course if you equate death as the ultimate defeat.
then NPR was like well what did he meeeeean

Funny enough: before I heard NPR's "oh god don't make us hold anyone accountable for anything" handwringing, I heard this reported on the BBC News hour program...carried on the same channel. Those guys? Not remotely fucking around about this. They played the clip, the anchor said (paraphrasing) "WTF?" and his guest said -- with some stunned preamble -- that nobody in politics, particularly at this level, should come anywhere near anything that could be misconstrued as talk of assassinations.

And then I heard NPR's headline on this a little while later and wanted to smash my head into the dashboard of my car.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [45 favorites]

I feel like I'm referencing something that happened two weeks ago instead of yesterday, and it brings me no joy to report this, but Trump might have said "cities" yesterday.

Darn.
posted by slmorri at 3:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

And three of Colorado, Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada. (Possibly only two if he picks up an odd seat from the split states).

The theory is he picks up a seat in Maine? That seems... unlikely. Hell, I think its more likely that Clinton picks up one in Nebraska than Trump one in Maine.

Three of CO, IA, NH, and NV seems like the firewall against Trump. I don't see that happening unless Clinton's campaign implodes.
posted by Justinian at 3:27 PM on August 9, 2016

That's the thing, vuron, we are in such weird territory here that nobody can figure out what constitutes a "time out." Normally bad polls would have the effect of forcing the serious candidate to change but Trump already announced this morning that he won't change because his internal polls tell him he is doing fine. The media has become so wishy-washy that they can barely bring themselves to tell the truth about him. The RNC and the rest of the GOP don't know what to do. The big donors have never gotten on board. It's truly fascinating yet terrifying to see how there are no restraints on a guy like Trump.

I fully expect at an upcoming Trump rally to hear that the crowd has started chanting, "Shoot the bitch."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Too bad someone can't seem to put him into time out.

Not for the first time, it occurs to me how shitty it must feel to be on Trump's Secret Service detail. "Seriously? I'm supposed to take a bullet for this dickhead?"
posted by dersins at 3:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [44 favorites]

I'm starting to feel like Hillary has been preparing to make a run at the White House for a while so they've been preparing for best the GOP could possibly have to offer since the mid-90's when it was conceivable that she might be facing off against Michael Jordan of candidates.

Instead she got Trump. What do you do if you've trained for 20 years to turn yourself into Stephan Curry just so that you'd be ready to face off against MJ and a deranged homeless man shows up shouting insults at you and telling you how much of a loser you are?

You pretend is is MJ and run up the fucking score.

To that end, I'm sure she'll play the debates straight. But I would love to see her come out, give her standard "I'd like to thank..." spiel, a super quick stump speech (10 seconds, tops) and then say, "I yield the remainder of my time to Mr. Trump." Then not say another word for the rest of the night.
posted by VTX at 3:31 PM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

Not for the first time, it occurs to me how shitty it must feel to be on Trump's Secret Service detail. "Seriously? I'm supposed to take a bullet for this dickhead?"

And "Seriously? Now my colleagues who protect Hillary Clinton are in at least some greater danger."
posted by zachlipton at 3:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Why are they all of a sudden falling over themselves to explain what he "actually" meant?

the trap they have fallen into is thinking that he means anything at all, that there is a thought process that leads to his utterances
posted by murphy slaw at 3:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

> I'm starting to feel like Hillary has been preparing to make a run at the White House for a while so they've been preparing for best the GOP could possibly have to offer since the mid-90's when it was conceivable that she might be facing off against Michael Jordan of candidates.

In this analogy the GOP field turned out to be the 1972-73 Philadelphia 76ers.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

My god, all my dreams will come true if Liz Warren is the one to induce Trump's surely inevitable unhinged, spittle-flecked meltdown. The only thing better would be for Hillary to deal the final blow in a debate on live national television. (In my ideal world, Hillary's response to said meltdown will be a look of genuine alarm and concern and saying, "Are you okay, Donald?" while the moderators mutter, not quite off-mic, about whether Mr. Trump needs medical attention.)

Yes, this election is driving me to write wish fulfillment fanfiction, because it's either that or DRINK TO FORGET.
posted by yasaman at 3:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

In this analogy the GOP field turned out to be the 1972-73 Philadelphia 76ers.

Or the Washington Generals.
posted by dersins at 3:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Not for the first time, it occurs to me how shitty it must feel to be on Trump's Secret Service detail.

Imagine how Katy Tur feels.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

In this analogy the GOP field turned out to be the 1972-73 Philadelphia 76ers.

Or any recent 76ers team.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 3:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Deadspin: An Oral History of Our 'Go Fuck Yourself' Tweet to Donald Trump:

On January 16, 2013, Deadspin published an exposé of Notre Dame linebacker Manti Te’o’s fake dead girlfriend. The next morning, reality TV personality Donald Trump tweeted his congratulations. Fourteen minutes later, Deadspin tweeted back “Go fuck yourself.” This is the story of that tweet, as told by those who lived it.

[...]

Ley: Trump had just started doing his thing on Twitter, and I think he was still in that “LOL this guy is a lovable dummy on the internet!” phase.

Craggs: We were just given a rare opportunity to say something to his face.

Burke: I try not to think about that tweet very much. The idea of Donald Trump thinking about me or even being aware I exist is very unsettling to me.

Craggs: I am exceedingly proud of that tweet, and proud of Barry for having tweeted that tweet in our name.

posted by palindromic at 3:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Pence in Pa.: 'Donald Trump just gets it'

"Donald Trump just gets it," the Indiana governor told a crowd of cheering supporters at a rally here. "He's a doer in a game usually reserved for talkers, and when he does his talking, he doesn't go tip-toeing around those thousands of rules of political correctness."

Gets what, Pence? You want to spell it out for me? He gets the anger of some men at the specter of being led by a woman?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:42 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump Live (NC)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

The NPR subhead, incidentally:

Falsely charging that Hillary Clinton wanted to “abolish the Second Amendment,” the GOP nominee then appeared to many observers to suggest taking up arms against his Democratic rival.

posted by Going To Maine at 3:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I honestly think Trump might have just been babbling nonsense and had no idea of the implications of what he was saying, but it's... pretty bad that my benefit-of-the-doubt best case scenario is "he literally just has no idea what he is saying."
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

As a reminder: Obama lost that first debate with Romney. The "proceed, governor" moment was the next debate.

I wouldn't look at these debates as "she's going to ream Trump!" What she needs is sound like the adult in the room and let Trump be Trump. That's it. That's not reaming your opponent; that's letting your opponent beat themselves.
posted by dw at 3:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

The problem is, the GOP as a whole is like the completely burnt-out and gutted state of basketball in Breaking Madden's Jon Bois' "Slow Death of the NBA", engineered to die. Obama becoming president-for-life from that playthrough suddenly becomes more poignant in that regard.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think Politico.com has zeroed in on this very accurately: Trump’s loaded words fuel campaign freefall;
Detouring off script again lands the GOP nominee in perilous territory.
posted by bearwife at 3:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

It doesn't matter if he was joking. Anyone without the sense or control to not joke about that shouldn't be president.

And he wasn't joking.
posted by chris24 at 3:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [42 favorites]

One of the hardest jobs in politics must be cleaning up after @JoeBiden gaffes. I feel sorry for his spokespeople.

@LEBassett Katrina Pierson's long-awaited explanation: Trump was saying an assassination "could" happen, not that it "should" happen.

At least Joe Biden has competent staff who can actually do their job.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's telling that the best way to handle Donald Trump is to treat him like a small child. If he misbehaves take his toys away and make him sit in a corner. If he throws a temper tantrum just stand back and let him wear himself out.
posted by nathan_teske at 3:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's just chattin' again. Why are they allowing him to extemporize? Get out the paper, read the words on the paper, all the words, one after another, 'til you get to the end of the words. You can put the paper away again in your jacket once you've read all the words on it in order. Then pull a fire alarm or something, anything to get him off stage.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

please be aware that in addition to Mr. McMullen, there are many more fine "third party" and alternative candidates to choose from, including The Antichrist, Dat Ass, Sydneys Voluptuous Buttocks, Eric Cartman, Foot Cheese, Crawfish Crawfish, Ourlordandsaviour Cthulhu, Deez Nuts, Kermit Frog, Mister Grump, Frederickson Asshat Kazoo, Gary Johnson, and Jill Stein.

The exclusion of Limberbutt McCubbins from this list and this discussion is further proof of the mass media's collusion against his candidacy and the sweeping changes he will bring to DC and our great country.
posted by Anonymous at 3:48 PM on August 9, 2016

At what point are the Secret Service agents allowed to tackle somebody for threatening a Presidential candidate?
posted by schmod at 3:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump makes death threats because he's a pathetic coward who can’t handle the fact that he’s losing to a girl. --@elizabethforma (Verified Account)

Amanda Marcotte: Trying to make America male again: Women control the ballot box — and angry, sexist Trump voters can’t deal:

Women may have won the vote in 1920, but men were the majority of voters for the next six decades. That started to change in the early ’80s, when women started out-voting men. In 2012, 58.5% of women reported voting, compared to 54.4% of men. While most office holders are still men, women have quietly reshaped the nation’s political discourse.

The nomination of Trump — a loudmouthed misogynist who can’t seem to name a single talented woman besides his own daughter — can be understood in large part as a reaction to this trend, a temper tantrum thrown by angry men whose idea of making America great again means wresting control of it back from women.

posted by palindromic at 3:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

Katrina Pierson may be the dumbest person on cable news, which is really quite an accomplishment.
posted by EarBucket at 3:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

It's telling that the best way to handle Donald Trump is to treat him like a small child. If he misbehaves take his toys away and make him sit in a corner. If he throws a temper tantrum just stand back and let him wear himself out.

I think I'd rather everyone treat him like an adult and force him to face adult consequences for his actions.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

An ABC story on some telling Twitter reaction to Trump's effort to spin his comment as humor, including a response from a Sandy Hook victim family member.
posted by bearwife at 3:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Pierson's nickname is "Hurricane" Katrina. I just assume it's a reference to Bush's response.
posted by Justinian at 3:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Next up on Deadspin: An oral history of how we decided to get burritos for lunch.
posted by ckape at 3:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

My friend in NC informs me that Trump delivered those Second Amendment remarks in “the home of America's only successful violent political coup d'état,” the Wilmington insurrection of 1898.

Originally described by European-Americans as a race riot caused by blacks, the events are now classified as a coup d'etat; white Democratic Party insurgents overthrew the legitimately elected local government, expelling black leaders from the city. In addition, a mob of nearly 2,000 white men attacked the only black newspaper in the state, and persons and property in black neighborhoods, killing an estimated 15 to more than 60 victims, and destroying homes and businesses built up since the Civil War.

The event marks an era of more severe racial segregation and effective disenfranchisement of African-Americans throughout the South, a shift already underway since passage by Mississippi of a new constitution in 1890 raising barriers to voter registration. Laura Edwards wrote in Democracy Betrayed (2000), "What happened in Wilmington became an affirmation of white supremacy not just in that one city, but in the South and in the nation as a whole."

So that's, uh
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [78 favorites]

Why are they allowing him to extemporize?

Who is this "they" you are imagining have the power to tell Trump what to do?
posted by straight at 3:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Maecenas - I signed up via the HFA site a few weeks ago, but no one has contacted me yet. I walked into the New Hanover Co Dem Party HQ about a week and a half ago and have been recruited to work for state-level and downticket candidates (phonebanking and data entry mostly, because I'm a local govt employee and not looking to canvass door-to-door and show my face and put strain on my employer), which is great, but I was hoping to also do some work for the national campaigns. If any North Carolinians in the thread have any new information about Clinton volunteering opportunities, I'd love to hear.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 3:54 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Next up on Deadspin: An oral history of how we decided to get burritos for lunch.

That is basically what they are doing:

This is Gawker Media’s last week as an independent media operation, and while that shouldn’t affect you much one way or the other as a reader, we’re still going to take advantage of a pretext to run some especially stupid posts. If you have any ideas for such posts, hit us at [e-mail].

posted by palindromic at 3:55 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Dropping a cat joke into the middle of a discussion of assassination threats, good timing, me!
posted by Anonymous at 3:56 PM on August 9, 2016

About an hour ago on NPR I heard Sen. Susan Collins make a vague claim that the lurkers support her in email. And I actually hope that it's true.
posted by puddledork at 3:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

@SecretService [verified]: The Secret Service is aware of the comments made earlier this afternoon.
posted by glhaynes at 3:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Katrina Pierson may be the dumbest person on cable news, which is really quite an accomplishment.

But wait, there's more. From the link posted by bearwife

"Mr. Trump was saying exactly what he said," spokeswoman Katrina Pierson said on CNN."


I don't know what Trump is paying her but whatever it is, it is too much.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Former CIA director Michael Hayden: "If someone else had said that outside the hall, he'd be in the back of a police wagon now, with the Secret Service questioning him." Hayden also managed to - -inadvertently? pun that it was a "very arresting" comment by Trump.
posted by bearwife at 3:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Dropping a cat joke into the middle of a discussion of assassination threats, good timing, me!
posted by schroedinger

Maybe. Maybe not.
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [74 favorites]

I keep wondering which gaffe will finally be Trump's You Thanked Hitler moment.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

ABC News opened with "BREAKING NEWS" and tearing into Trump about the assassination remarks.
posted by bongo_x at 4:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Also everybody knows the only morally acceptable way to use robots in warfare is to make them extremely large and anthropomorphic and to have angsty teenagers operating them from inside the chest cavity

NERF THIS
posted by poffin boffin at 4:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Jill Stein Is Outspending Donald Trump on Campaign Ads

What’s more, as the Washington Post’s Philip Bump notes, the longer Trump waits to buy ad time, the more expensive it will be. As any deal-maker knows, a rare commodity is a pricey one. And by the time his fellow presidential hopefuls — and other down-ballot politicians — reserve their ad time, there will be precious little remaining for the Republican standard-bearer.

All of which raises the question: What exactly is Trump spending his money on? We’ll have to wait for the campaign’s July spending report to know for certain. But in June, Trump’s biggest spending category was “fundraising consultants.” Which makes some sense, since his fundraising over the first half of this year was dismal.

He also spent a lot on advertising that month, although strictly in the digital realm, putting $1.63 million into online ads — four times as much as Hillary Clinton did over the same period. Trump also invested $29,000 in Facebook advertising in June. Which is roughly 15 percent of what the campaign spent on branded trucker hats in May.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Tales from Ohio Phone Bank #2:

I just want to take a moment to dispel the myth that people are not excited for Hilary. Nearly every "I'm voting for Hilary!" I hear on the phone is preceded by an enthusiastic "Hell yes!" and I never get tired of hearing it.
posted by Tevin at 4:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [70 favorites]

Anecdotally, I've seen Stein ads multiple times and never seen a single Trump ad.
posted by Justinian at 4:05 PM on August 9, 2016

“Mr. Trump was saying exactly what he said,” spokeswoman Katrina Pierson said on CNN.

There’s both a Rumsfeld and a Bill Clinton joke waiting to be made here, but I lack the skill.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:08 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Guiliani is defending Trump as well.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:10 PM on August 9, 2016

Even FOX News: Dana Perino: If Clinton Made That ‘Second Amendment’ Remark About Trump, We Would Freak Out

Geraldo Rivera was mortified by what Trump said, declaring, “This is a federal crime if he means waht he says.”

“Imagine,” Dana Perino said, “if [Clinton] had said, or somebody had said, that about Donald Trump––like carelessly say ‘Oh, maybe someone will assassinate him’––we would all be going crazy.”

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters," Trump said [Real] "However, it turns out what I can't do is tell someone else to shoot somebody"[Fake]
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

Giuliani is defending Trump as well.
Of course he is.
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I expect that by now the desks at the RNC must have permanent forehead dents in them.
posted by Jalliah at 4:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [29 favorites]

Waiting for Paul Ryan's "Of course we should not be threatening our political opponent's with gun violence but I support our party's nominee."
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [44 favorites]

Holy shit.

I have no words.
posted by kyrademon at 4:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Imma need a "you're losing to a girl" shirt.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [34 favorites]

Trump is praising the Great Wall of China, apparently unaware that it didn't work.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

so after the primary tonight, will Paul Ryan rescind his endorsement, revealing himself to be a moral coward, or will he stand by it, revealing himself to be an even greater moral coward? exciting times, these
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [49 favorites]

I would expect that by now, the desks at the RNC must have permanent forehead dents in them

And just like that...I haz a sad for the RNC!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Currently Trump is saying it's a waste of money to build the sound barrier walls next to highways, people who bought houses next to a highway should have known the road was noisy. This is the guy who has been fighting for 20 years to reroute the Palm Beach Airport flight paths away from his Mar a Lago club.
posted by peeedro at 4:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [44 favorites]

So Trump is just merrily toodling along speaking whatever words pass through his brain and is unaware of the new shitstorm he's caused?
posted by Jalliah at 4:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why are they allowing him to extemporize?

Look, Ivanka's got a life. She can't watch him 24/7.

"Mr. Trump was saying exactly what he said," spokeswoman Katrina Pierson said on CNN."

A trump is a trump is a trump. She's like an idiot-savant Gertrude Stein.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ned Resnikoff: T-minus 30 minutes until Paul Ryan issues a statement that's mildly critical of political assassination
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

There’s both a Rumsfeld and a Bill Clinton joke waiting to be made here, but I lack the skill.

You go the lectern with the verb you have, not the verb you want.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

btw has Evan McMullin given a statement on Trump's 2nd amendment remarks yet
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump is praising the Great Wall of China, apparently unaware that it didn't work.

or that it took generations to finish
posted by murphy slaw at 4:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

okay it's amanda marcotte so i know i shouldn't be surprised but when will people STOP SAYING "Women may have won the vote in 1920,..."

white women got the vote at that time. i think it's a super important thing to note that WOC couldn't freely vote until decades later and it just drives me bonkers when it gets glossed over
posted by burgerrr at 4:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [43 favorites]

Trump is praising the Great Wall of China, apparently unaware that it didn't work.

According to L. Brooks Patterson, an odious racist toad, suburban sprawl advocate, and Oakland County Commissioner, “China built a wall 2,000 years ago. In Beijing, they don’t have any Mexicans, so it’s working."
posted by palindromic at 4:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

> "Currently Trump is saying ..."

Sorry, my brain is still stuck on the part where he CALLED FOR THE ASSASSINATION OF HIS OPPONENT.
posted by kyrademon at 4:21 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Donald Trump has been speaking in Fayetteville, NC, for 26 minutes -- and a steady stream of people are leaving.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

Trump is praising the Great Wall of China, apparently unaware that it didn't work.

or that it took generations to finish

Or that almost a million people died building it.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

or that i drew a peen on it with chalk
posted by poffin boffin at 4:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [37 favorites]

oh god, trump is going to guest on hannity's show tonight
posted by murphy slaw at 4:26 PM on August 9, 2016

You go the lectern with the verb you have, not the verb you want.

there are the known nouns and then there are the unknown nouns.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 4:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Pretty sure a static '0' would work throughout the campaign.

Done!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

[checks news for first time in hours]

[mournfully deletes 10,000 word comment on Evan McMullin, Kissinger, and drone warfare]

. . .

Tronald Dump

. . .
posted by Copronymus at 4:29 PM on August 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

Caught a little of the Fayetteville rally, and the crowd didn't even fill the pretty small venue it was in.
posted by codacorolla at 4:29 PM on August 9, 2016

He is done talking in Fayetteville.

Daniel Dale: Trump is finished at his second rally. He didn't address his earlier remark, even to bash the media, and left the cleanup to Giuliani

Interesting. I would have expected him to double down or at least try to "clear up" what he said earlier. I guess this is his great Presidential Moment. He didn't tell people to shoot his opponent during his second speech of the day.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:31 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Even FOX News: Dana Perino: If Clinton Made That ‘Second Amendment’ Remark About Trump, We Would Freak Out

For whatever it's worth, this story is buried waaaay underneath the fold on their website. The currently leading headline is:

BIAS ALERT
Media confess to Trump bashing, try justifying it

So, yeah. Fox is still run by a group of unapologetic monsters not unlike Trump himself. They sure as fuck don't deserve a pass on this.
posted by schmod at 4:31 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

He didn't tell people to shoot his opponent during his second speech of the day.

Pivot!
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

"No trying-to-be objective and fair journalist, no citizen who cares about the country and its future can ignore what Donald Trump said today. When he suggested that "The Second Amendment People" can stop Hillary Clinton he crossed a line with dangerous potential. By any objective analysis, this is a new low and unprecedented in the history of American presidential politics. This is no longer about policy, civility, decency or even temperament. This is a direct threat of violence against a political rival."

This and more from Dan Rather.
posted by chris24 at 4:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [66 favorites]

Love that half of the response to the Jenna Johnson tweet is "YOU LIE TRUMP HAS THE BIGLYEST CROWDZ" and like the third or fourth one down actually refers to Clinton as a "lesbo." JFC.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:34 PM on August 9, 2016

Predicted spin from GOP "Leadership": What Trump said was awful. But please vote for him, because eliminating the estate-tax that affects the richest .5% of Americans is more important than having a President who doesn't openly threaten opponents with assassination.
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

According to L. Brooks Patterson, an odious racist toad, suburban sprawl advocate, and Oakland County Commissioner,

Not just a commissioner, he's been co. exec. for about 49 years. And ugh Denise Ilitch quoted there too- how I'm coming to loathe that family.
posted by NorthernLite at 4:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Love that half of the response to the Jenna Johnson tweet is "YOU LIE TRUMP HAS THE BIGLYEST CROWDZ" and like the third or fourth one down actually refers to Clinton as a "lesbo." JFC.

I scrolled down as far as "You wouldn't know a steady stream if it hit you in the face." Classy bunch. The classiest!
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:37 PM on August 9, 2016

so, this new donald trump reality show - when is this episode going to be over?

don't we even get a commercial break once in a while?

WHO IS THIS HORRIBLE ORANGE MAN ON MY TV SET AND WHY WON'T HE STOP SAYING STUPID THINGS?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

btw has Evan McMullin given a statement on Trump's 2nd amendment remarks yet

Who?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:42 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Classy bunch. The classiest!

has anyone noticed that on public comment boards that certain local stories are attracting a shitload of unpleasant conservative hatefest comments? - many more than one would expect given the significance of the news story and the audience that a local story should get?

furthermore, they all seem to be somewhat coordinated in theme and outlook

are those local media sites that still allow comments being astroturfed by some political organization? - i'm really starting to wonder about that
posted by pyramid termite at 4:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

What the hell does Egg McMuffin have to do with anything??
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

> WHO IS THIS HORRIBLE ORANGE MAN ON MY TV SET?

Agent Orange
posted by guiseroom at 4:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

(Not to derail, but back to Michigan politics, I was confused by the Ilitch quotes re Arab Americans. I guess she's a Dem, so she's a good Ilitch. ;))
posted by NorthernLite at 4:46 PM on August 9, 2016

In all the talk of assassinating his opponent during the Wilmington speech, I somehow missed the great IQ Showdown.

From Time's full Transcript of the Wilmington speech (or as Time calls it, "The Second Amendment Speech"):

I mean, we have great people. We have the most loyal people. We have the smartest people. You know, so many of my people, they’re so smart. They like to say, well, Trump, I don’t know if he’s got this right — let me tell you, we have the smartest people. We have the people that are the smartest, and the strongest, and the best and the hardest working.

(APPLAUSE)

We have the smartest people. We’ll put I.Q.s among — some of us, we couldn’t say all of us, right — against any I.Q.s that we — we have to deal with, that I can tell you. I would love to do that.

Who is willing to take on Katrina Pierson?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Are any US residents here considering emigrating, by whatever means necessary, if Trump is elected?

I've been trying to think of ways, if the day comes, to help out fellow Americans leave and come to Canada. This might seem ridiculous at this point, but, without wanting to implicate Godwin's law in any way, what if Trump does come to power and leaving becomes necessary? What if unthinkable violence becomes the norm?

The latest Second Amendment comment scared me more than anything that he has recently said, and I've been following this way too closely for way too long.
posted by vert canard at 4:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who is willing to take on Katrina Pierson?

My four-year-old.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Susan Collins on Trump: "He was suggesting that 2nd Amendment advocates around the country might come together to pressure the Senate."

Bold Maverick Susan Collins is still carrying water for Trump, who she supposedly disavowed, what, 12 hours ago?
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

are those local media sites that still allow comments being astroturfed by some political organization? - i'm really starting to wonder about that

An investigative journalist reported on a pro-Putin astroturf network that seemed to exist to spread disinformation and propaganda in places like you mention(NYT), in keeping tabs on the list of accounts in the network, that journalist has found that

"I created this list of Russian trolls when I was researching. And I check on it once in a while, still. And a lot of them have turned into conservative accounts, like fake conservatives. I don't know what's going on, but they're all tweeting about Donald Trump and stuff..."

posted by codacorolla at 4:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

My money's on the four year old.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 4:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

So as of 7:44 PM EST if you type "Trump" into google and click on the news tab, these are the sort of headlines you get on the first page:

Trump's Assassination Dog Whistle Was Even Scarier Than...
Trump's economic plan was a huge mistake
Donald Trump's worst-of-both-worlds campaign
What plan?
The Trump campaign's absurdity, in one nonsensical statement
How Trump's poll decline could lead to a self-perpetuating death spiral for his campaign
With only 90 days until the election, Trump's steady decline in the polls means he needs a miracle to win
Is it over? Donald Trump's Republican abandonment issues spread across party
The Trump Panic
Trump would be 'dangerous' president, Republican security officials say
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

> "Are any US residents here considering emigrating, by whatever means necessary, if Trump is elected?"

Not "considering". My spouse and I have a plan in place and ready to go should it come to that. We're extremely fortunate in that our situation allows for that, though.
posted by kyrademon at 4:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton campaign email:

Donald Trump said this at a rally in North Carolina today:

"If she gets to pick her judges, [there's] nothing you can do folks. Although, the Second Amendment people, maybe there is. I don’t know."

This is not normal or acceptable talk from a presidential candidate.

But when decent people stay silent at moments like this, we let it become normal.

We all need to stand up right now and show that we don't tolerate this kind of politics in America -- before future candidates get the impression that they would benefit from running this kind of campaign.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

So as of 7:44 PM EST if you type "Trump" into google and click on the news tab, these are the sort of headlines

too bad trump supporters are completely impervious to media
posted by murphy slaw at 4:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Are any US residents here considering emigrating, by whatever means necessary, if Trump is elected?

Given his itchy nuclear trigger finger and potentially disastrous economic plans, I don't think it will help. What happens is going to happen everywhere, one way or the other. I.e., we either all have a global economic collapse together, or destruction is mutually assured, but it's not good either way.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 4:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

anyway, i'm not worried about trump winning anymore, i'm worried about what happens when he loses
posted by murphy slaw at 4:54 PM on August 9, 2016 [36 favorites]

Are any US residents here considering emigrating, by whatever means necessary, if Trump is elected?

Sort of. My wife and I are about 50/50 split on moving out of the US and back to her country. Long list of pro/cons, many unrelated to politics. If Trump is elected, it would be a huge number of points on the "pro moving" side, and I suspect might tip the balance. (Already, just this year and Trump's nomination and all the people who are willing to support him are points in the "pro moving" side). But I don't think I would move _just_ because Trump was elected if that was the only factor (and possibly not if I didn't have such an obvious and easy place to move to).
posted by thefoxgod at 4:55 PM on August 9, 2016

> too bad trump supporters are completely impervious to media

True, but he needs to gain supporters between now and November and these are not the headlines of a campaign that is on its way to doing so.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

i'm worried about what happens when he loses

That, and what happens next time around when somebody refines his basic approach and appeal but manages not to fuck up the operational part so badly.
posted by contraption at 4:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

Given his itchy nuclear trigger finger and potentially disastrous economic plans, I don't think it will help.

At least in my case, it's less about avoiding disaster (economic disaster overseas might be less, but still there as you say) and more about getting the fuck out of the US, which has gotten dramatically worse in terms of public discourse and behavior in the past couple years. It includes stuff like police violence, gun nut craziness, etc beyond just Trump himself, although I think all of these things are related. I'm sick of it here, really, even if Clinton does win; but it would be even harder to take if Trump won.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

If Trump wins, I'm staying and fighting. I could not leave my fellow Americans behind when they will get the worst of it.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 4:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [64 favorites]

I can see now that I was prematurely slightly concerned when Trump went a whole 24 hours without making me think, damn! Somehow he has said something even more ridiculous/frightening as hell than I had even considered he could!
posted by thebrokedown at 4:58 PM on August 9, 2016

So, how's the re-re-re-reboot going?
posted by kirkaracha at 5:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

> That, and what happens next time around when somebody refines his basic approach and appeal but manages not to fuck up the operational part so badly.

The hardest part is copying the celebrity cult of personality aspect he built up over the past few decades. Without that you're just another crazy tea party type.
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.
What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 5:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Trump wins, I'm staying and fighting.

Well, it's also quite possible to leave and fight. I'd rather not fund Trump's insanity (thanks to tax treaties, even though I'd be liable for US tax very little of it would go to the US). I can still contribute, vote, talk to people, etc from overseas. None of that changes.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:02 PM on August 9, 2016

My money's on the four year old.

She's pretty fucking smart!

/dadbrag

posted by kirkaracha at 5:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

She IS fighting below her weight, tho
posted by thebrokedown at 5:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.
What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

Even if Clinton planned it, Trump is only slightly turning up exactly what he was doing in the primaries. The Republican Party voted for him.
posted by Francis at 5:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Charles Pierce: The Moment You Realize Trump Finally Crossed the Line:

Is that The Line?

You know, The Line, the one that He, Trump has to cross before the entire Republican Party, not to mention a good portion of the human race, finds him too revolting for their delicate stomachs? What say you, Paul Ryan? Is that the line? John McCain? Mitch McConnell? All you clowns in the tricorns and the Watering The Tree Of Liberty tank tops? What say you all? Do you stand by this?

How about the elite political press? Is this enough to push you over the line to admitting every day in your coverage that this is not a normal election because the Republican Party has nominated a public sociopath for President of the United States?

posted by palindromic at 5:05 PM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

Trumpophasis: On What Cannot Be Said

This structure – where a speaker announces that they will not say something and then promptly goes own to say it – is a classic rhetorical device. The Greeks called it paraleipsis (a setting-aside), the Romans, praeteritio (a going-beyond). The feint of passing over something as unworthy of attention actually flags and underscores it, even as the speaker preserves the pretense of discretion and the position of taking the moral high road. Sly transgression is garbed in the appearance of probity; finger-pointing mixes with handwashing. Modern TV audiences may associate paralipsis with courtroom dramas, something right out of Law & Order (Prosecutor: “Without mentioning the Defendant’s previous affairs –” Defense Lawyer: “Objection!” Judge: “Sustained! The Jury is instructed to disregard that statement! McCoy, one more time, and you’re in contempt!”). The association of paralipsis with courtroom drama is accurate – its forensic pedigree is ancient.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 5:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

If Trump wins, I'm staying. I have a nasty sense in that case, there would be a need for a Second Underground Railroad, and we will be pretty prepared as a stop. My husband and I have already had the bizarre "do we hide Muslims" (answer: yes) conversation that we never thought would be a real conversation.
posted by corb at 5:08 PM on August 9, 2016 [63 favorites]

If Paul Ryan and Reince Priebus want an excuse to bail out of the clown car before it flies over the cliff and explodes, this would be a good one.
posted by EarBucket at 5:08 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.
What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

Even if Clinton planned it, Trump is only slightly turning up exactly what he was doing in the primaries. The Republican Party voted for him.

This idea made more sense in the primaries when Trump was just wrecking shit but nobody thought he would win. Mostly because it seemed like it would just raise his profile even more and inflate the Trump brand some more. But now he's damaging his brand, and when he loses (which surely by god he will) he'll be a loser not a fake-billionaire winner. Why would he sign up to be a loser?
posted by dis_integration at 5:08 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I can't bring myself to leave the United States. Not just that it's my home, but as a US citizen, I have to take responsibility for what my government does. That's what democracy means. If I have the vote, I have at least nominal symbolic power, I have this responsibility.

So instead of plans for leaving, I have this 2-am-can't-sleep nightmare plan for if there are ever actually death camps.

But I think people overestimate the propensity for real violence. From what I've seen, Trump supporters are just ... they're the type of people who yell a lot but will back down from a real fight. Like Trump. Just in general, there's a strong social taboo against actual fist-to-face violence, especially with these middle-class people. They're socialized to keep their hands clean. And they're just too lazy to actually riot or form a militia that does something real.

All the violent incidents in the past year have been done by people working alone, or cops. The isolated militants don't scale up.

(nota bene that the immigrant detention centers look and smell kinda like death camps and I don't know what to do about that)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:09 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

Well, does he want Trump or Clinton to win? Don't try to argue him out of it if Trump; and if Clinton, then roll your eyes and ... don't bother trying to argue him out it.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:09 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

"The ballot or the bullet? What's the difference?" -- Donald Trump [fake]
posted by kirkaracha at 5:09 PM on August 9, 2016

My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.
What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

Even if Clinton planned it, Trump is only slightly turning up exactly what he was doing in the primaries. The Republican Party voted for him.

This idea made more sense in the primaries when Trump was just wrecking shit but nobody thought he would win. Mostly because it seemed like it would just raise his profile even more and inflate the Trump brand some more. But now he's damaging his brand, and when he loses (which surely by god he will) he'll be a loser not a fake-billionaire winner. Why would he sign up to be a loser?

If Clinton planned this she’s playing the game at Vetinari levels and we can only hope she will be an excellent enlightened despot.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:10 PM on August 9, 2016 [32 favorites]

My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.
What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

"So you're saying the Republican base was so simple, so easy to read and manipulate, that Clinton could pick a candidate and a message that would break through an incredibly crowded field, gain a rabid following, and take over the whole party? All this from months in advance? That sounds really sad, Dad."
posted by PlusDistance at 5:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

If Trump wins, I'm staying.

girl you know we're both getting deported
posted by poffin boffin at 5:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

I realized something this week - save for the age requirement, I honestly think that I, personally, would be a better president than Donald Trump. I'm not sure that could be said of any other major party nominee ever.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [62 favorites]

My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.
What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

Occam's razor. What is more likely? The Clinton campaign decided planting a fake candidate was worth the risk of this information being discovered (which would surely ruin the campaign) considering there was no guarantee Trump would even get any traction in the primaries. Trump went along with this despite the damage to his reputation if found out? Or, perhaps he is just a terrible candidate who got propelled further than he should be because primary voters tend to be more hardcore.
posted by Mayhembob at 5:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Re: Chinese Wall.

In The Art of Not Being Governed James Scott said the purpose of the wall was to keep peasants in, not invaders out.
posted by bukvich at 5:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I realized something this week - save for the age requirement, I honestly think that I, personally, would be a better president than Donald Trump. I'm not sure that could be said of any other major party nominee ever.

Man, yeah. I hadn't thought of it like that, but me too. And I'm lazy as hell.
posted by rifflesby at 5:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

So, how's the re-re-re-reboot going?

Not so good. The health inspector accused us of serving human flesh.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

> My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.
What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

It's foolish to argue, and I don't think there's a good argument against it. Lately I'm feeling like there's maybe a 15% chance it's correct.

> But now he's damaging his brand, and when he loses (which surely by god he will) he'll be a loser not a fake-billionaire winner. Why would he sign up to be a loser?

He's got a much longer list of potential suckers now than he did before, and wider visibility. At least, he has a longer list if his team has been even remotely competent at saving e-mail addresses. Which I suppose we can't take as a given.

There's also the factor that even if he doesn't win the election, Trump's narcissism will find a way for him to see himself as a victor. So there's no actual risk to his ego.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 5:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

No fewer than three times in the last five minutes I have copy-pasted, mentally written a reply and then scrolled down to find that someone has already written word-for-word the comment I was going to post when I got to the end of the thread.

I am one with the hive mind now

subsumed into the vastness of blue
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [55 favorites]

All the violent incidents in the past year have been done by people working alone, or cops. The isolated militants don't scale up.

There is, thankfully, not the sort of nationalist structure available to build a fascist state on -- the most ardent of Trump supporters are the sort of people we made fun of at Malheur -- but that doesn't mean a proto-fascist like Trump can't do damage, and inspire violence.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Trump wins, I'm gonna need to avail myself of your Second Underground Railroad services, or in the alternative, find someone Canadian or European or whatever to marry me, because I am definitely headed to the camps, or deported off to Afghanistan I guess (I WASN'T EVEN BORN THERE). I definitely already had the deeply distressing realization that I would not pass a REAL AMERICAN purity test, despite not being religious, despite having only stepped foot in a mosque once in the last 10 years.

So yeah, I've thought about it. My family has thought about it. We had to flee one country, I cannot begin to tell you how dispiriting it is to contemplate doing it again.
posted by yasaman at 5:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

There is, thankfully, not the sort of nationalist structure available to build a fascist state on -- the most ardent of Trump supporters are the sort of people we made fun of at Malheur -- but that doesn't mean a proto-fascist like Trump can't do damage, and inspire violence.

We can quibble about terminology, and of course the US is not Germany and 2016 is not 1933.

History won't repeat itself. But its rhyme is equally terrifying.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Inside Clinton's GOP recruitment plan:

The unprecedented desertion of the GOP nominee by leading members of his own party — and their embrace of Hillary Clinton — is partly organic, but for the most part it’s being midwifed by the Clinton campaign, which is beginning to reap the rewards of a behind-the-scenes recruitment effort that’s been months in the making.

posted by kirkaracha at 5:21 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I was saving this for if he actually won, but since y'all brought it up:

Attention Canadian Women: Reasonably fit fortysomething liberal male American refugee seeks marriage of convenience or.... I cook, make excellent coffee, and have over 28k favorites on MetaFilter. MeMail for further info.
posted by entropicamericana at 5:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Hillarious Clinton just now on Twitter: "Our kids are watching, Donald."

Also: new ad
posted by guiseroom at 5:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yea sorry, this isn't the time for fucking Team of Rivals. She has the opportunity for a wave election, and she's choosing to court Meg Whitman and Henry Kissinger.

How about supporting your down ballot candidates, who you fucking need to get anything done?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

I have stepped foot in more mosques in the past ten years than yasaman has, and I'm a late middle-aged white athiest.
None of us will be safe.
posted by Floydd at 5:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

re: leaving the US, allow me to paraphrase the tick and say "Egad, I hope not. That's where I keep all my stuff!"
posted by murphy slaw at 5:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't have immediate plans to emigrate if Trump wins.

But I do have friends and aquaintances in Ireland and Canada, and an association with someone in France, and should Trump win I may start ramping up contact with them and having somewhat serious conversations about certain things "just in case".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:27 PM on August 9, 2016

If Paul Ryan and Reince Priebus want an excuse to bail out of the clown car before it flies over the cliff and explodes, this would be a good one.

Honestly, I expect Ryan to desperately duck, dodge, and avoid this issue until his primary is over. Then maybe he'll come out with a statement against it, or maybe even (we can hope) revoke his endorsement...but again, not until after his primary.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:28 PM on August 9, 2016

No plans (or resources) to leave the country, but in the event that they arrive to take me to the camps, I intend to beg them to hold off for five minutes so I have time to call my Dad and say "I FUCKING TOLD YOU."
posted by Spathe Cadet at 5:31 PM on August 9, 2016 [40 favorites]

My dad is convinced of the conspiracy theory that Trump is Clinton plant and is throwing the election. He becomes more convinced by the day.

What is a good argument against this or is it foolish to even attempt to argue with conspiracy theories?

I genuinely believe that Trump had no expectation that he would win the primary, then after a point there was no way out of the nomination that would a) allow him to save face (eg, blame it on the RNC for rigging the primary) and b) not blow up the Republican Party (eg, why the RNC did not try to force him out or entertain the appeals the Free the Delegates/Never Trump party members).

The primary was great for him: he got a bunch of free media exposure, an updated list of gulls for future conning, and he got to look all dominant over a bunch of people with access to real political power. I think his ideal scenario was to get in an early win or two, then claim some sort of RNC malfeasance when a Rubio or Bush started to pull ahead, then bow out. That did not happen.

Given the nature of his celebrity, there was no ego-salving way to say to his voters that actually he didn't want this job after all or that he lost or whatever. He was like an evil win shark, that had to keep evilly winning to live. He is now sharking it up so evil in front of everyone and it is not working, and people are not coming to his casinos or licensing his shitty condos or respecting his line of steaks.

He plans to keep this 'I'm a winner!' charade running until well after Clinton is sworn in as POTUS 45, with talk of rigged elections and stolen votes. Once that lost its lustre, I would not be surprised if he budded off as a third party candidate for the next few cycles.

I believe in the effectiveness of Trump's Razor: "Ascertain the stupidest possible scenario that can be reconciled with the available facts."

The stupidest scenario, to me, is one where he treated his campaign as a means to transform free campaign publicity into those wingnutdollars, and it spiraled out of his control, and he can't betray any loss of dominance or he will lose the only way to recoup sunk costs. Any other scenario would have him make secret plans and quietly execute them, which cannot be reconciled with the available facts.
posted by palindromic at 5:31 PM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

How about supporting your down ballot candidates, who you fucking need to get anything done?

Is she not doing this?
posted by Going To Maine at 5:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

Yea sorry, this isn't the time for fucking Team of Rivals. She has the opportunity for a wave election, and she's choosing to court Meg Whitman and Henry Kissinger.

How do you get a wave election if you don't get voters from the other party? It's either them or non-voters, and the thing about non-voters is that they don't vote.
posted by chrchr at 5:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [54 favorites]

I've been upset about all of this for months and refreshing this thread every 2 minutes, but after the speech today, I keep thinking how insane it is that we all have to spend money (donate) and put forth effort (volunteer) to keep such a piece of shit out of power. That seems so ridiculous to me. It makes sense that he should have to spend a ton of money to obtain power. But it doesn't make any sense that me, and millions of of others, have to spend money to keep him from gaining power. He just threatened his rival candidate, and now I have to send her money so that he doesn't become president.
posted by monkeystronghold at 5:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

She has the opportunity for a wave election, and she's choosing to court Meg Whitman and Henry Kissinger.

Although I agree Kissinger is a bridge too far, getting people like Whitman saying "vote Hillary" is actually really important. In order to get anything actually done, Hillary needs both the House and Senate. She has an okay chance at the Senate at best, and a miniscule chance at the House.

Going after the Whitmans and actively getting them on board matters. It matters because a lot of those downballot races are no-hopers even if GOP turnout is depressed and Dem turnout heightened; to flip the house, Hillary basically needs Republicans to switch sides, not just stay home or vote for her instead of Trump but otherwise check R in every column. The Whitmans of the world actively campaigning for Hillary normalize voting Democrat for people who otherwise won't. That's why she's going after them now. It doesn't matter what Meg Whitman actually wants the day after election day, because Meg Whitman isn't running for anything. The Dem candidates in districts where Meg Whitman might stump, on the other hand, are.

And even then, if Hillary gets the House and Senate, she's got a safe threshold of two years to get a decade's worth of governance done, because there's a likelihood she loses one or both in 2018. She needs to address all the operating problems with Obamacare, she needs to get a real climate change plan passed, she needs to get a real infrastructure plan passed, nominate three to four Supreme Court justices, all of it. There's an insane amount of work to get done in a very short window of time, and Hillary knows that in advance.

Remember: you might not agree with her on everything, but she's insanely smart and although she's too hawkish for most of us here on the blue, her domestic policies trend left in all the proper ways, and she needs Congress for that. I trust her to get that done.
posted by mightygodking at 5:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [72 favorites]

You know who is gonna vote for Donald Trump, besides all this? My parents, two retired people who live in a middle-class New York neighborhood. They are going to vote for a man who is the opposite of everything they taught me about what makes a decent human being.

Why? Because he said he would appoint judges to overturn Roe v Wade. No other potential tragedies of a Trump presidency, not the abuse of minorities, not bankrupting the nation, not getting Twitter-baited into thermonuclear war, outweigh that in their values calculus.

Even if he melts down in an orange puddle of hate before the election, they wouldn't vote for Hillary. The GOP and Fox News, led by men whose known sexual misdeeds make an intern BJ seem kinda quaint, have thoroughly convinced my parents that HRC has done terrible things that they can't quite explain.

Hinting that his 2nd Amendment friends should rid us of this troublesome woman? "Come on, he was just saying what's everyone's minds. He just has the balls to say it."

I want HRC and all she commands put pedal to the metal for 90 days and never let up, not one day. I want her so far ahead that if another psychotic shitheel decides to paint his name in AR-15 bullets or some terrorist attack freaks everybody out, it won't matter. If Julian Assange really does have something interesting, it won't be enough to matter.

I want my parents, and everyone like them, to know that they are nor America, not any more.
posted by sacre_bleu at 5:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [116 favorites]

I intend to beg them to hold off for five minutes so I have time to call my Dad and say "I FUCKING TOLD YOU."

One of the more horrifying use cases for dead man's switch email services.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

If I'm, say, a Republican house member in one of the top 10% closest districts, and Clinton rides in on a wave, I have two options: I can stay the course and keep being obstructionist, even though that is clearly looking like an unpopular strategy in the long run, or I can consider crossing the aisle to work with the president who, instead of dunking on my entire party when it would have been totally justified, said "hey guys. Aren't you tired of this? Wouldn't it be nice to actually work together and pass some legislation? Maybe something we can all more or less agree on, like a nice juicy jobs bill that would employ people in your district?"

Listen I can dream ok
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

You can get waves various ways.

a) appeal to untapped voters - everything already suggests that Clinton is doing a ton of outreach to new voters
b) reach across the aisle and get converts - this is already going on and let's be honest Clinton is not backing down on her platform.

This isn't pivoting to the middle this is giving a life line to various conservatives that might be going that Trump is not what they signed up for.

Considering passing Clinton's platform requires recapturing the senate and house and many of those seats are in Republican leaning districts I see absolutely no harm in trying to convert Republicans.
posted by vuron at 5:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

the crowd didn't even fill the pretty small venue it was in.

They knew that he'd done his Day's Crazy at the earlier rally, and wouldn't get to see it in person. Sad!
posted by holgate at 5:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

If I'm, say, a Republican house member in one of the top 10% closest districts, and Clinton rides in on a wave, I have two options:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaa, oh, I can't breathe. Have you met Mitch McConnell?

They're still going to be far more terrified of primaries, and Trump's rank incompetance gives them a very easy out, they can blame him personally for all of the fail, and keep on pursuing the same policies as always because hey, he still only lost by 8 and we still held the House (or whatever is the outcome). There is absolutely zero chance of a return to anything approaching normal governance now, Republicans have been radicalized.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah, as the article described it:

“They’re hardly recruiting Republicans,” said Democratic consultant Karen Skelton, who has been helping the Clinton campaign with outreach to Republicans in California. “They have their baseball mitt out and they’re catching balls.”

There are Republicans out there who really want to ditch Trump, either because they're just decent people or because they believe he is bad for them politically in their own district (or both!). It sounds like the Clinton campaign is doing a low-key thing to basically say "Hey, it's OK, you don't _have_ to support him if you don't want to, we're here for you" and encouraging them to publicly dump Trump / support Clinton. That seems like common sense politics, to me.

I don't see any indication that Clinton is radically changing her policies to attract Republicans, which I could understand people being upset about. Thanks to Trump, she doesn't really have to do that to attract some minor GOP support, since at least some of them either don't want Trump to be President or just don't want to be associated with Trump.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [30 favorites]

But it doesn't make any sense that me, and millions of of others, have to spend money to keep him from gaining power.

The 2000 and 2004 elections were tough on me, having the non-fuckstick candidate lose by just ~600 votes in FL and then 100,000 in OH.

2006 was a hopeful change that maybe the electorate was seeing the error in their ways, but then 2010 and then 2014 hit us.

We've got the 27% crazification factor, but on top of that ~40% of the population are apparently easily bamboozled and/or gaslighted (I get the 40% from this, 72% support for the Iraq war in 2003 vs 32% in 2007).

Several years ago I came across J.S. Mill's quip in parliament saying "not all conservatives are stupid, but generally speaking all stupid people are conservative" and that hit too close to home.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Former Ambassador: Donald Trump Should Resign | MSNBC

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

Yea sorry, this isn't the time for fucking Team of Rivals. She has the opportunity for a wave election, and she's choosing to court Meg Whitman and Henry Kissinger.

How about supporting your down ballot candidates, who you fucking need to get anything done?

She's been supporting the down ballot for a long time. And if she wants to support the down ballot candidates then one of the best things she can do is flip Republican voters. Meg Whitman is an excellent choice to try to bring tens of thousands of Republicans over in a year Democratic turnout should be a trump card (Kissenger not so much - an evil genius is still evil).

In short this is going for a wave election. And she won't get one without courting people like Meg Whitman.
posted by Francis at 5:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

Also keep in mind that Meg Whitman is incredibly wealthy and money isn't red or blue it's green and it spends equally well coming from a disaffected Republican or a loyal Democrat.
posted by vuron at 5:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Who will be the first reporter to ask Profiles in Courage Paul Ryan his thoughts on this?
posted by leotrotsky at 5:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

how sad is it that after election day, which looks like it will be the biggest victory for leftist politics in decades, which will usher in the administration of the first woman chief executive in our history, which will be an utter repudiation of the politics of nihilism

my greatest hope is that i no longer wake up several times a night gripped by a feeling that something terrible has just happened, that i might get through a day without shaking with rage, that i might for a moment not feel battered by constant reminders that evil has no consequences and the bad guys always win

this year is just wrecking me
posted by murphy slaw at 6:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm pretty sure Paul Ryan is in a safe house somewhere trying on wigs and learning a foreign accent.
posted by chrchr at 6:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

the most ardent of Trump supporters are the sort of people we made fun of at Malheur

Speaking of which, Jon Ritzenheimer (the "Daddy swore an oath"/angry dildo guy) plead guilty today. That makes him one of a half-dozen or so that have plead out so far this year. (Greasy Dave & the Bundy clan are still in for the long haul. Tho Ryan Bundy has struck upon the startlingly original strategy of declaring himself an idiot Unfrozen Caveman-stylee.)

re: leaving the US, allow me to paraphrase the tick and say "Egad, I hope not. That's where I keep all my stuff!"

to which I can only say "Hell, yes" and "Spoon!"
posted by octobersurprise at 6:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Robert Costa ‏@costareports 1m1 minute ago
Ryan isn't holding a rally. Instead, he bought volunteers cheese curds and beer. He'll hold a news conference after the race is called.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Instead, he bought volunteers cheese curds and beer.

Never change Wisconsin, never change.
posted by nathan_teske at 6:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yea sorry, this isn't the time for fucking Team of Rivals. She has the opportunity for a wave election, and she's choosing to court Meg Whitman and Henry Kissinger.

How about supporting your down ballot candidates, who you fucking need to get anything done?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:24 PM on August 9 [3 favorites +] [!]

Oh, look, another specious uninformed reason to bash the female candidate. Let me get my applause meter.
posted by OmieWise at 6:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

This guy is blogging the Wisconsin primary results. The polls just closed. You can also watch them here.
posted by guiseroom at 6:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

My sister is trans, and had a conversation with her fiancée along these lines:

- If things get bad, we're going to fight, right?
- No, if things get bad, we're going to run away.

Because her fiancée's grandmother fled Germany as a child, and lived. That connection made it real -- my sister says: "now when I think about a Trump presidency, I think about getting on a boat with my family and burning my passport." Not as a first response, but as a real thing to be prepared for.

So yeah, people are considering it.

My sister is optimistic. She's hopeful that Trump loses hard, and that a lot of people will really reconsider what it is they've been supporting and how close they came to pushing us all over the cliff.

But she spends time in fear, too. If he had done nothing else wrong, I could never forgive Trump for that.
posted by john hadron collider at 6:21 PM on August 9, 2016 [60 favorites]

Hillary Clinton reaching right for allies is part of how she plays against Trump. I've said for months that this summer would see a lot of people convincing themselves that it really is okay to vote for Hillary or Trump after all- this is how Hillary makes sure that as many people as possible are saying "You know, I always vote Republican, but I guess she's not as bad as that Trump asshole".

I don't like it, especially since some of the people she's reaching out to (Kissinger in particular) are filth, but if that filth will vote to keep the violent fascist out of the White House I'm happy for the moment.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:22 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaa, oh, I can't breathe. Have you met Mitch McConnell?

I mean, do you really think this state of affairs is going to continue on indefinitely? There's absolutely no way the House gets even a little less entrenched? No scenario in which this visibly shaky coalition of weirdly non-compatible interests cracks just a tiny bit?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:29 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I suppose I can check off the "Threaten to put a hit on someone" square on my Trump Bingo card.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Hinting that his 2nd Amendment friends should rid us of this troublesome woman? "Come on, he was just saying what's everyone's minds. He just has the balls to say it."

Certainly not the first time he tried to normalize violent rhetoric.

"I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters,"

-- Donald "I'll pay my debts in Bankruptcy Court" Trump

I'm interested in if there will be any reprecussions from the NRA's blatant electioneering. I mean, they shouldn't be using their 501(c)3 to be tweeting against Hillary Clinton.
posted by mikelieman at 6:31 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Well done, prescient bingo card person.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ambulatory void Paul Ryan wins primary, per MSNBC
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Whoa! It looks like Ryan is squatting on top of Nehlen and making him smell his farts.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

All righty Paul, anything to say now that you don't have to worry about getting Cantored?
posted by saturday_morning at 6:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Have I ever been excited for a Paul Ryan press conference before?
Has anyone?
posted by saturday_morning at 6:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I just got a glimpse of what Trump supporters are saying about this on Facebook and it's like the fucking Upside Down over there, complete with "this is what the second amendment is actually for" rallying cries. Holy shit.

I've been very removed from the actual Trumpian rhetoric (thank you, well curated friends list!) and I'm genuinely frightened by what I read.
posted by lydhre at 6:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Great job Ryan! Hope your bar is stocked up for your upcoming loss.
posted by Yowser at 6:44 PM on August 9, 2016

Wasn't the Ryan primary tracking much closer? Should we be worried about polling?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:48 PM on August 9, 2016

Ryan with a 69 point lead. That little munster!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wasn't the Ryan primary tracking much closer? Should we be worried about polling?

No.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:50 PM on August 9, 2016

do you really think this state of affairs is going to continue on indefinitely? There's absolutely no way the House gets even a little less entrenched?

No. They've created an alternate reality where ever the tiniest concession to Democratic priorities is viewed as treason, and enforced by a rabid mob of the radical base ready to primary any elected official who shows the slightest inclination to work with Democrats. On top of that, they've also created an environment absolutely opposed to rational or evidence based argument, so no matter how far to the right the base moves, the "moderate" leaders have no authority or credibility to move the needle back towards the middle.

I don't know what changes that dynamic, but I suspect it's "nothing". They're too far gone. the Democrats need to win to maintain a functioning government, and need to hold on for as long as it takes for Republicans to either implode once and for all, or become demographically irrelevant. Because if Trump, Trumpism, or it's cheerleaders in the current Republican leadership comes into power, they will never relinquish it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

There's absolutely no way the House gets even a little less entrenched? No scenario in which this visibly shaky coalition of weirdly non-compatible interests cracks just a tiny bit?

not as long as the GOP fears the primary more than the general.

2018 is an off-year election, you know how those go . . . apparently only the crazies vote for those.

The GOP strategy is to simply prevent things from getting better and then blaming the black guy.

For the past 6 years Congress has mainly focused on renaming post offices. That's not a joke, and the lost opportunity of what could have been done in the last 3/4 of Obama's presidency is beyond calculation, really.

One, example, we had 1 million more construction workers in 2007 than now. For $80B/yr we could have put them all to work, but we didn't.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Wasn't the Ryan primary tracking much closer? Should we be worried about polling?

66 point lead a few days ago. I wouldn't worry.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hinting that his 2nd Amendment friends should rid us of this troublesome woman? "Come on, he was just saying what's everyone's minds. He just has the balls to say it."

tell ur fuckin parents to meet me in the pit
posted by poffin boffin at 6:55 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

Yeah, I'm about forty comments late, but I'm staying no matter what, and I'm starting a list of people I can call, text and PGP with if the unthinkable happens.

I can't think how it would happen, but I can't think how Donald Trump didn't get arrested today, either.
posted by Mooski at 7:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, count me in the Underground fucking Railroad 2016 or whatever if the unthinkable happebs. I've got wifi, spare beds, futons, and beer. Come on over.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I have dual citizenship with Canada in my back pocket, but no family there anymore and not enough liquid assets to realistically make a go of it (especially with my spouse being 100% American and having to go through what I assume are some lengthy processes before being able to work). And we just bought a house.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:04 PM on August 9, 2016

If the unthinkable happens those assholes are going to find out what a real militia looks like.

(Which is to say, the National Guard.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yea sorry, this isn't the time for fucking Team of Rivals. She has the opportunity for a wave election, and she's choosing to court Meg Whitman and Henry Kissinger.

Sorry to pile on, but you know what kind of politics I have no interest in and am completely sick of? Us against them. "We'll show them" "Smite my enemies" all that shit is tiresome. I like the kind where someone says "This train is moving forward and we're going to get shit done, anyone who wants on, get on". That seems to be Clinton plan, and I'm on board.

Since I seem to have an uncanny knack of being the statistically average person I've got to think a lot of other people are feeling the same way about now.
posted by bongo_x at 7:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [55 favorites]

Lawrence O'Donnell is saying now that the Secret Service tweet is the first time in history they have made a statement about a political candidate.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

My sister is optimistic. She's hopeful that Trump loses hard, and that a lot of people will really reconsider what it is they've been supporting and how close they came to pushing us all over the cliff.

I said it elsewhere on this, but it remains true: I want a memorial to all of the Trump voters. A memorial to complacency and to false equivocation and to putting party over country. Something that can remind everyone that this was an edge that people were really willing to go over, and that we should demand our politicians -if not each other- mean what they say and say what they mean.

My monument of choice also remains an enormous eggplant surrounded by eggs, but I’ll take something more somber and fitting as well.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, I'm honestly hoping Clinton sincerely means bipartisan governance with reasonable people, because there are a lot of us huddled over here weeping and we would kind of like to go back to just having different ideas and compromise without people hurling the word "traitor" around.
posted by corb at 7:10 PM on August 9, 2016 [38 favorites]

Her record suggests she means it. It's one of the reasons she has trouble with staunchly partisan progressives.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

a lot of people will really reconsider what it is they've been supporting and how close they came to pushing us all over the cliff

Anyone who was open to reconsidering has already reconsidered. The ones that are left will just double-down and make it so much easier to prune your Facebook. Losing real bad won't change anything because these people already think they are the most downtrodden victims to ever trod down. It'll just be another data point on their Wall of Crazy. What I would hope to see happen, though, is for everyone else to stop treating these people like they have legitimate things to say about governance. Stop giving them a national spotlight to spew their Alex Jones conspiracy theory batshittery as if it's equivalent to a press release from the Brookings Institution.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sorry to pile on, but you know what kind of politics I have no interest in and am completely sick of? Us against them. "We'll show them" "Smite my enemies" all that shit is tiresome. I like the kind where someone says "This train is moving forward and we're going to get shit done, anyone who wants on, get on". That seems to be Clinton plan, and I'm on board.

The worst thing about truly crushing Trumpism as is deserved is that it will become like racism - not something that anyone “is”, but a behavior that folks manifest - “that sounds really trumpy”, etc. I mean, heck, white nationalists accuse their opponents of being racist, and talk about their celebration of European heritage. On the plus side, unlike with many racist things, there’s going to be a really easy, bright line to identify Trumpists in our own time: if they vote for or endorse the man. But hell, I’d rather we all get together to smash something truly awful than grouse about the worst of our allies. Trump is the White Walkers, and Kissinger is, I guess, Cersei.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Man, Don Lemon and the Republican guy defending Trump's comments are tearing into eachother. In very personal fashion. Did Don Lemon finally find some testicular fortitude?
posted by Justinian at 7:17 PM on August 9, 2016

That doesn't look like Calvin peeing.
posted by JJ86 at 7:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Anyone who was open to reconsidering has already reconsidered.

Most people haven't given serious thought to the election yet. Because it's three months out and they have more pressing concerns. Sept./Oct. is when they'll start caring.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

People accuse Hillary Clinton of changing her position based on what the voters want - but that's completely misunderstanding her ideals because changing to suit the voters is a part of her ideals. Her fundamental belief, so far as I can tell, is quite simply that the government should be there to support, help, and make things better for all the people in the United States. This means she's about listening to them rather than being precious about her ideas.

She really really dislikes the Republican Party as an institution and I think thinks that Donald Trump is the candidate the institution deserves. But she has always been very good at reaching across the aisle to individuals who are willing to work for the good of the people. I think both Corb and a lot of progressives are going to get some very nice surprises from her if (or hopefully when) she becomes President.
posted by Francis at 7:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [47 favorites]

Kissinger is, I guess, Cersei.

Surely Qyburn.

Although he sounds more like Pycelle.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Most people haven’t given serious thought to the election yet. Because it's three months out and they have more pressing concerns. Sept./Oct. is when they'll start caring.

As long as enough people have taken an interest for 538’s estimates to be on the mark, I feel good.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:22 PM on August 9, 2016

On emigrating if Trump wins: I have a Facebook friend (an old high school classmate) who moved from the Philippines to the US with her family when she was young. She says that she and some of her Filipino friends are making plans to return to the Philippines if Trump wins.

It is appalling that people should even have to consider such things. She grew up here. She has built a life and raised a family here. This is her country. She should not have to fear her neighbors and her own fucking government simply because she is not white.

In one of these threads, someone argued that this year-long national dumpster fire may ultimately be a good thing – for having laid bare the long-simmering racist ugliness underneath the surface of American society (and the lengths to which the GOP will go to make apologies for it). I hope that's true. I hope some nut doesn't accept Trump's invitation to turn this cold war hot. I hope that the GOP, and the country at large, is able to learn the right lessons from all of this. I really hope we can figure out what to do with this mass of fellow Americans who are willing to vote for a fascist loon – because our democracy won't be safe until we do.

I hope that 2016 is the worst American year that I witness, because I don't want to know what's worse than this.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

Lawrence O'Donnell is saying now that the Secret Service tweet is the first time in history they have made a statement about a political candidate.

And now he has a Russian Trump advisor named "Boris" declaring that Trump, no how no way has crossed any lines. Nope, Trump isn't indebted to Putin and besides, Mrs. Trump is gonna have a press conference soon and clear up all this immigration stuff.

They're shitting me, aren't they?
posted by octobersurprise at 7:25 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Epshteyn is from Russia.
posted by Yowser at 7:29 PM on August 9, 2016

I'm honestly hoping Clinton sincerely means bipartisan governance with reasonable people

It depends how you define 'bipartisan', given how the caucuses have moved apart in recent years. Kansas offers some hope there, with the reaction to ideologues who impoverished the state. But it requires reasonable Republicans to reject in very vocal terms the idea that the elected GOP can obstruct everything for two years and then run in the mid-terms on "government is fucked up".
posted by holgate at 7:29 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Michael Barbaro and Amy Chozick at The New York Times: “Donald Trump’s Support Among Republican Women Starts to Slide”
posted by Going To Maine at 7:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

As someone mentioned, I'm really worried that there will be a LOT of trump-supporting men who are going to try to convince their wives that they should do mail-in votes... together.
posted by Yowser at 7:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Previously linked Vox article ("Understanding Hillary") has a relevant quote from her:

“A lot of governing is the slow, hard boring of hard boards,” she says. “I don’t think there's anything sexy, exciting, or headline-grabbing about it. I think it is getting up every day, building the relationships, finding whatever sliver of common ground you can occupy, never, ever giving up in continuing to reach out even to people who are sworn political partisan adversaries.”

... the Times tallied up Clinton’s unusual alliances: “With Representative Tom DeLay it was foster children. Newt Gingrich, the former speaker of the House, jumped in with her on a health care initiative, and the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, was a partner on legislation concerning computerized medical records. The list goes on: Senator Robert Bennett on flag-burning; Senator Rick Santorum on children's exposure to graphic images; Senator John Sununu on S.U.V. taillights; Senator Mike DeWine on asthma.”

This wasn’t an accident, and it definitely wasn’t an inevitability. “When she hired me, she said, ‘There is nobody I won’t work with,’” recalls a former Clinton staffer. “I didn’t believe it. So many of the people in the Senate had voted to impeach her husband. But it was true. There was no one she wouldn’t work with.”

That's the kind of governing I can get behind, honestly. Governing is not about winning. It's about getting stuff done.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [93 favorites]

Ryan presser going on... Can't pronounce "irrevocably" properly.

Sigh.
posted by modernnomad at 7:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

someone argued that this year-long national dumpster fire may ultimately be a good thing – for having laid bare the long-simmering racist ugliness underneath the surface of American society (and the lengths to which the GOP will go to make apologies for it). I hope that's true.

I hope so too, but I doubt it. I think this year has made America worse for the forseeable future, that people who want to say racist and bigoted and sexist things have become emboldened by it and will double down on that if Trump wins. Even if Trump gets "only" 30% or 40% of the vote, thats an awful lot of people who are OK with open hostility and hatred. Even the worst Republican nominees/Presidents of my living memory (from Reagan on) don't hold a candle to the depths of Trump.

I'm not saying America can't eventually recover, but it will be a long long time I expect. The damage is mostly done (although it will get much much worse if by some crazy chance Trump manages to win) and its much quicker to destroy than to rebuild.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Did Don Lemon finally find some testicular fortitude?

No. Equivocators get no pass whether they're GOP pols or media talking heads.

I don't care if you're Susan fuckin centrist Main Street Collins. If you were too much of a coward to stand up for us when it might've made a difference, you get no quarter and no relief. You have to live with the fact that you cared more about your goddamn career than you did about the lives of your fellow citizens who are black, brown, gay, trans, disabled, leftist and/or low-income.

You have disqualified yourselves from public office and from claims of journalistic integrity. Fuck right off and find an honest line of work, such as home health care worker or retail cashier.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:34 PM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

I don't disagree with that, but I'm seeing a lot of people who have suddenly realized that they stand for something - that they stand against trumpism. That's a good thing.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I'm honestly hoping Clinton sincerely means bipartisan governance with reasonable people

Hillary says she’ll work across aisle — and some in GOP agree

The Hillary Clinton record: In the Senate, she reached across the aisle, but the old ways there are no more

Tim Kaine's Republican fan club
posted by kirkaracha at 7:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I'm honestly hoping Clinton sincerely means bipartisan governance with reasonable people, because there are a lot of us huddled over here weeping and we would kind of like to go back to just having different ideas and compromise without people hurling the word "traitor" around.
posted by corb at 9:10 PM on August 9

corb,

I would politely suggest that you consider that neither Obama nor Clinton has been or potentially will be, the barrier to bipartisan government in the US. It seems clear to me that the obstructionists who refuse to participate are almost exclusively members of the GOP.

For the sake of the country, we need to get every last one of them out of government.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 7:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [69 favorites]

Ryan: didn't hear comments directly, sounds like a joke gone bad.
posted by modernnomad at 7:37 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Paul Ryan claims he didn't hear Trumps comments, but they "sound like a joke."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:37 PM on August 9, 2016

In other words, Ryan admits he has no idea what he's talking about, but he'll defend it anyway?
posted by zachlipton at 7:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

All that P90X doesn't do shit for spinal fortitude I guess
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [46 favorites]

During his trial, Humphreys will explain: “I said God might speak to the world through a ‘burning Bush.’ I had said that before and I thought it was funny. It was prophetizing.” The court will learn that Humphreys had made similar statements in Internet chat rooms, including the following: “If you hear that a man runs up and throws gasoline and a match to Bush you will know that God did speak through the burning Bush.” He has also sent similar statements to the Bush White House via fax machines, and during the Clinton administration expressed the desire that President Clinton and his wife Hillary Clinton would commit suicide. Humphreys will be convicted and sentenced to 37 months in prison.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Christ, does any living Republican have a PR staff?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

zachlipton, I mean, it was pretty clear he was lying, too.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I know my measly $10/mo donation to MPR doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but it's cancelled after hearing another about another tepid on-air response and seeing this headline: Trump Suggests 'Second Amendment People' Could Stop Clinton, But What Did He Mean?

Maybe it's not fair to penalize my local station for the actions of NPR, but I'm absolutely not ok with helping to fund messaging that legitimizes a campaign calling for physical violence.
posted by strange chain at 7:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

For the sake of the country, we need to get every last one of them out of government.

No, but we need a chance to show what it would look like if they were a minority.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

lol. Is this going to be Ryan's new response to the flaming piles of shit the Trump campaign tosses onto his doorstep daily? "I didn't hear about that, no, sorry." "It's been the leading story on multiple networks for hours." "Didn't hear about it. But I'm sure it was just a joke or misunderstanding!"
posted by yasaman at 7:42 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

My imagination is almost gone — this world has torn it to shreds — but what remains envisions these dramatic thrashings the dying throes of American white supremacy which has been hiding and surviving in plain sight since about 1865.

Maybe we really needed a bush fire to scare the critters into the light where our collective social authority can do that "Culture" thing and end a broader chapter of American history with a big, frightening finale. Lord knows we've a taste for drama, don't we?

If we've got a few million violent racist xenophobes running around, that's not something I want daily life to gloss over. I'd rather we pull this bandaid off for good.
posted by an animate objects at 7:42 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

He said he heard about it, just didn't bother to listen to the 10 second clip.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump:

Media desperate to distract from Clinton's anti-2A stance. I said pro-2A citizens must organize and get out vote to save our Constitution!

man, fuck this guy
posted by murphy slaw at 7:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

Standard GOP tactic of multiple conflicting excuses, all blatant horseshit.
posted by Artw at 7:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

No stand by your words you chickenshit fuck

Trump and Ryan really are made for each other.
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

I don’t care if you're Susan fuckin’ centrist Main Street Collins. If you were too much of a coward to stand up for us when it might've made a difference, you get no quarter and no relief. You have to live with the fact that you cared more about your goddamn career than you did about the lives of your fellow citizens who are black, brown, gay, trans, disabled, leftist and/or low-income.

But when is standing up “early enough” to make a difference? Susan Collins is standing up now, and it matters. To pretend that it doesn’t matter is to surrender, and to fail to persevere in a way that strikes me as the antithesis of Clinton’s politics.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

(Granted, we internet people have luxury of not having to have Clinton’s politics, but it’s an interesting contradiction.)
posted by Going To Maine at 7:47 PM on August 9, 2016

Well I mean the whole Trump campaign sounds like a joke gone bad.

But it isn't. It's fucking serious.
posted by ckape at 7:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

omg you dog whistling piece of human trash I hope she trounces your sagging ass so bad it gives you permanent erectile dysfunction.
posted by Mooski at 7:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm seeing a lot of people who have suddenly realized that they stand for something - that they stand against trumpism. That's a good thing.

Obviously late is better than never in a pragmatic sense -- every little bit helps. And I'm not aiming my ire at Trump supporters as a whole, even.

But those persons who claim to be representatives of the people, or part of a profession that exists to speak truth to power, and who yet have enabled this by what they have done and by what they have left undone...

See, I'm so done with them that I'm quoting the Book of Common Prayer.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

At this point he could use the term "mud people" and GOP leadership would be all "I think he really meant people who don't bathe much" and the press would be all WHICH WAS IT? WE MAY NEVER KNOW!!
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [65 favorites]

I would politely suggest that you consider that neither Obama nor Clinton has been or potentially will be, the barrier to bipartisan government in the US. It seems clear to me that the obstructionists who refuse to participate are almost exclusively members of the GOP. For the sake of the country, we need to get every last one of them out of government.

Then for the sake of the country, we need to actually TAKE VOTING SERIOUSLY and do just that.

And I mean ALL voting. Even the local elections. Vote in every election. Because the way that the people who are mucking things up in Congress right now got in, it was via the small local offices that usualy run unopposed and no one pays attention to. The average voter turnout for one New York local race was only ELEVEN PERCENT.

Want the entire GOP out of congress? Start by showing up at the damn polls and voting them out of your town council first.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

@TonySchwartz: As I’ve said: Donald Trump doesn’t joke. He is never subtle. When he makes a death threat, it’s because he’s feeling impotence & rage.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

Politics is about persuasion. If you spend years trying to convince someone to change their mind, and when they finally do you say "Fuck you, you didn't change your mind 3 years ago so now it is too late!", then next time they won't even listen to you.

This is a country that has a majority of Republicans in both houses of Congress. The idea that you can just say "fuck all Republicans we don't need them" and actually accomplish anything is crazy. I absolutely agree that there are many who can't be persuaded and should be ignored, but if you can get some of the party to leave and bring some voters with them, you absolutely do that.

Holding grudges doesn't accomplish anything. I wish everyone had always supported everything I want throughout history, but that just isn't the case. If I could get everyone to change their minds to agree with me now, I would call that a win and let the past go rather than let everything burn down because I can't handle what people who now agree with me did before.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [54 favorites]

Evan Osnos at The New Yorker: “Why Gun Owners Should Reject Trump’s Call to ‘Second-Amendment People’”
posted by Going To Maine at 7:55 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am not here for who is right or pure. I am here for outcomes. Sometimes getting a good outcome requires writing off people, but usually it does not. Getting things back on track absolutely requires a large proportion of conservative-leaning voters and politicians to feel engaged and listened to.
posted by R343L at 7:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Evan Osnos at The New Yorker: “Why Gun Owners Should Reject Trump’s Call to ‘Second-Amendment People’”

Because murder is bad?
posted by Artw at 7:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

why do trump supporters get to feel victorious while they're losing while all of us over here in consensus reality don't get to celebrate until election day and then we'll wake up the next morning and recognize that there's a godawful mess to clean up so it's time to put away the party hats and not even be able to savor it

curse my functioning brain
posted by murphy slaw at 8:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

The Republicans’ Plan for the New President:

On the night of Barack Obama’s inauguration, a group of top GOP luminaries quietly gathered in a Washington steakhouse to lick their wounds and ultimately create the outline of a plan for how to deal with the incoming administration.
...
After three hours of strategizing, they decided they needed to fight Obama on everything.

The Party of No: New Details on the GOP Plot to Obstruct Obama:

David Obey, then chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, met with his GOP counterpart, Jerry Lewis, to explain what Democrats had in mind for the stimulus and ask what Republicans wanted to include. “Jerry’s response was, ‘I’m sorry, but leadership tells us we can’t play,’ ” Obey told me. “Exact quote: ‘We can’t play.’ What they said right from the get-go was, It doesn’t matter what the hell you do, we ain’t going to help you. We’re going to stand on the sidelines and bitch.”

Lewis blames Obey and the Democrats for the committee’s turn toward extreme partisanship, but he doesn’t deny that GOP leaders made a decision not to play. “The leadership decided there was no play to be had,” he says. Republicans recognized that after Obama’s big promises about bipartisanship, they could break those promises by refusing to cooperate.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [41 favorites]

The Card Cheat is right: the media (sorry, I mean "The MainStream Media WAKE UP SHEEPLE GOOGLE RON PAUL") has turned viciously against Trump.

There are exceptions, of course. But many of the major outlets have finally abandoned the "both sides of the story" nonsense, and are covering the Trump campaign for what it is: a dangerous train wreck that undermines American democracy and global security. Perhaps it should've happened sooner, but it's happening, and it's a beautiful sight to see: the Fourth Estate (belatedly) earning its title.

Khizr and Ghazala Khan, you were the spark that lit the fire. I raise my glass of overpriced bodega Sauvignon Blanc to you.

I expect that Trump will lose in November. All the same, neither Clinton, nor the media, nor any of us should take that for granted.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [29 favorites]

Because murder is bad?

*republican voice* citation needed
posted by poffin boffin at 8:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

curse my functioning brain

When you sleep, dream of the nowcast on Monday, after the next round of polls.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Want the entire GOP out of congress?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:51 PM on August 9

No, no, no. That's not what I meant, and I apologize to all for not making my position more clear. I'm not advocating that every GOP member of the congress be voted out of government, just the hard core obstructionists who refuse to reach across the aisle to compromise, no matter what position the Dems offer. Healthy opposition is needed I think (that whole checks and balances thing), so I'm not against all the GOP members. I'm merely pissed at the obstructionist congresspeople acting like a child having an unreasonable temper tantrum when they don't get every last thing they want, no matter how absurd it is.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 8:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

How about supporting your down ballot candidates, who you fucking need to get anything done?

I just voted in the primaries for some down-ballot candidates today. There are not yet down-ballot candidates to support. Once those primaries are over and the final ballot is more clear, then we can judge her down-ballot support.
posted by VTX at 8:04 PM on August 9, 2016

I'd love to see a pro-gun organization come out and say they disavow Trump's statement. "We think guns are important for defense and for personal security but we can't stand behind a candidate who considers every gun owner to be a potential assassin who he can call on to murder his political rivals."

Let's see if that happens... probably not.
posted by mmoncur at 8:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

curse my functioning brain

When you sleep, dream of the nowcast on Monday, after the next round of polls.

Alternately, I suppose, you could dream of Ted Cruz rubbing his hands together and cackling, “Soon… soon…”
posted by Going To Maine at 8:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Perhaps it should've happened sooner, but it's happening, and it's a beautiful sight to see: the Fourth Estate (belatedly) earning its title.

grumble grumble FINE but i'm still mad tho
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

What should have been an obvious Trump supporter has come out as a 3rd party candidate.

Saw it was Kotaku, expected VIvian James, was disappointed.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Susan Collins is standing up now, and it matters.

She just today defended Trump's call to assassinate Hillary Clinton.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:08 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

Well, poop.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:10 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

So I keep worrying about Trump dropping out.

And then it occurs to me, maybe this is part of the reason Clinton is soliciting endorsements from Republicans. Because endorsing someone because they aren't a flaming tire pile is a pretty low bar, but then you have to write a public recommendation -- and then you start to see Clinton as a net positive, rather than just the person who won't end the world on a lark.

And that means that, when the October surprise comes along in the form of a new Republican candidate (surprise! We intended this all along!), Clinton's already got people in her camp, rather than just making unexpected endorsements.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 8:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

so i just tweeted something nasty @ trump and i'm not even drunk and i know it's a totally empty gesture but

he's a poopyhead and i thought he should know.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:11 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

I realized something this week - save for the age requirement, I honestly think that I, personally, would be a better president than Donald Trump. I'm not sure that could be said of any other major party nominee ever.

If it weren't for the age requirement, my cat would be a better president than Donald Trump. And that was before today's "2nd Amendment" remarks.
posted by maurreen at 8:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I was pleasantly surprised by the FDR cosplayer
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

“2nd Ameowndment”
posted by Going To Maine at 8:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

My cat is 4.5 but really smart.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

christ almighty people, thomas friedman has written something sensible about something that matters

we're through the looking glass here, folks
posted by murphy slaw at 8:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [37 favorites]

This is a country that has a majority of Republicans in both houses of Congress. The idea that you can just say "fuck all Republicans we don't need them" and actually accomplish anything is crazy.

But you can understand the frustration when a 50-50 House vote delivers a large GOP majority, or when a particular geographical region with the population of Detroit gets two senators because it's a state and not a city. The irony of 2016 is that Trumpism argues that the deck is stacked against a particular group of people when pretty much every bit of political machinery is skewed towards white people who don't live in big cities. The additional irony of Trump's current weakness is that it allows Clinton and Kaine to campaign in places like Atlanta and Austin and maybe even Houston that usually have limited exposure in national campaigns.
posted by holgate at 8:17 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Former Senator Joe Lieberman emerges from the Where Are They Now? file to say he’s thinking of supporting Donald Trump. Nice day for it!
posted by kirkaracha at 8:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

Media desperate to distract from Clinton's anti-2A stance. I said pro-2A citizens must organize and get out vote to save our Constitution!

Desperate backtracking is not exactly a show of strength, here. I take heart in that he's starting to feel the heat.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Former Senator Joe Lieberman emerges from the Where Are They Now? file to say he’s thinking of supporting Donald Trump. Nice day for it!

WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
posted by Going To Maine at 8:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

joe lieberman is the literal worst.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:20 PM on August 9, 2016 [56 favorites]

I honestly had no idea Lieberman was that awful. Huh.
posted by bongo_x at 8:22 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

She says that she and some of her Filipino friends are making plans to return to the Philippines if Trump wins.

With all that's going on there (Duterte, etc.), there's a good chance they'll be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
posted by tclark at 8:22 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Former Senator Joe Lieberman emerges from the Where Are They Now? file to say he’s thinking of supporting Donald Trump.

Droopy Dawg desperate to draw debate, dallies with dumbshit dictator-in-waiting
posted by Existential Dread at 8:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

lieberman has always been the king of "i'm so moderate i might just defect to the other team if you don't give me what i want". a faithless attention whore.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [39 favorites]

To be fair that article is dated 8/5, when there were several fewer tires on the burning pile than there are today.

Trump's weaseling might be passable if he hadn't followed up "there might be" with "But — but I'll tell you what, that will be a horrible day." Why would it be a "horrible day" if gun rights advocates were merely exercising their political power?
posted by Countess Elena at 8:25 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

If Trump drops out the GOP will have a very difficult time recruiting a serious candidate and running a campaign. The replacement starts with almost no campaign infrastructure, no money, very little time and an untested message. It might be that being the sacraficial lamb gets you a shot at 2020, but maybe not.
posted by humanfont at 8:27 PM on August 9, 2016

Daily News cover
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

Addendum: what he said before that was not "there might be" but "Although the 2nd Amendment people — maybe there is, I don’t know". Sorry for the error, it's all mine, but I get the words from the LA Times.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:28 PM on August 9, 2016

From Twitter:
Quick reminder that Dan Quayle misspelled "potato" and we all decided he was unfit for office.
posted by vac2003 at 8:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [62 favorites]

christ almighty people, thomas friedman has written something sensible about something that matters

I refute this on principle.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:33 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Ah dammit, you're right. That is actually a pretty fair and reasonable point from the TF. Well played.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:34 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Because murder is bad?

*republican voice* citation needed

#6 “Thou shall not murder."
posted by mikelieman at 8:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

we're through the looking glass here, folks

We already went through the glass, hit the fun-house mirror, reflected back, refracted through the looking-glass and scattered into space.
posted by dis_integration at 8:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Once again: fuuuuuuuck this guy. He can come over to my crib any time and I'll give him a guided tour of all the places that law enforcement officers (who, in this case, were legit just trying to do their jobs and go home) bled out on neighbors' lawns because a Second Amendment Person decided to ~do something~ about a recently-elected President's stance on gun control. (Said Second Amendment Person is now on death row and while I wish the State wouldn't kill him, I sincerely hope he slowly rots in a jail cell for a good, long time.) He had no access to the President, but there are representatives of the State everywhere and really any of them will do when you start giving human garbage permission to take up arms against the government. You want to know about a horrible fucking day, Donnie? That was a pretty horrible fucking day for all involved.

Every time I think I've reached the bottom of my bag of evens, I find a few more that I just can't.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [45 favorites]

If Trump drops out the GOP will have a very difficult time recruiting a serious candidate and running a campaign. The replacement starts with almost no campaign infrastructure, no money, very little time and an untested message. It might be that being the sacraficial lamb gets you a shot at 2020, but maybe not.

I think it would have to be Pence at this point.
posted by codacorolla at 8:40 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

joe lieberman is the literal worst.

I was thinking about him just the other day! Specifically, how satisfying it was for Ned Lamont to beat him in the primary so that Lieberman had to go back to the Senate as an independent and couldn't go on all the fucking Sunday shows with a (D) next to his name to undercut the Democrats anymore. Too bad Lamont didn't win the general.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

It seems to have died down a little, but for those of you talking about fleeing the country because of Trump: Please don't. The rest of us need you. A lot of people were saying this after Bush II, and some of them probably left. But warts and all this country has some decent ideals (which it constantly fails to live up to), and backing out of it because you can doesn't help the people who don't have the luxury.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:42 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm not through the looking glass as much as I'm looking for another shot glass.
posted by humanfont at 8:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

If you spend years trying to convince someone to change their mind, and when they finally do you say "Fuck you, you didn't change your mind 3 years ago so now it is too late!", then next time they won't even listen to you.

This is also part of the purity discussion. Someone says they're pro-X and people criticize "they were anti-X 20-30 years ago!" I don't give a shit what someone did 20 years ago unless they're still doing it now and that history reflects that. Might just be my personal perspective, but I was vomiting on myself on a regular basis and stealing shit out of people's medicine cabinets 30 years ago. Yet if I come over to your house today I'm reasonably sure neither of those things is going to happen.

Most people are capable of change. It seems the only people who disagree with that are the ones won't. You're not more right because you were right before someone else was right.
posted by bongo_x at 8:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

I'm curious what you think the specific difference between living in the US and not is, when it comes to helping the country. Citizens outside the US can still vote, can still donate to campaigns, phone bank, persuade people, etc. It seems to me that living in the US with Trump has a lot of downsides, but that the ability to work against him is not materially diminished regardless of where one lives.

(In my case, its not black and white because either my wife or I have to live in a country that is not ours, and she is much less willing to live in a foreign country that is governed by Trump, which is completely understandable and she has no obligation to stay. If I leave, I would not disengage from US politics, but I admit I would be happy to be out of the US. I also think the US is a negative force in the world and the world would be better off without it, but I still have sympathy and compassion for the many many people in the US who will be harmed by Trump, even if he loses).
posted by thefoxgod at 8:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Every time I think I’ve reached the bottom of my bag of evens, I find a few more that I just can’t.

NEW EVENS XXL BAGS! Now you can’t even even more! Once you can’t, you can’t start.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

so i just tweeted something nasty @ trump

wow

i just remembered that during George W. Bush's presidency, my dad would mail long letters in perfect catholic school cursive to him on a regular basis, to tell him exactly what he thought of him and his policies, and to elucidate all of the moral failings therein

so i guess what i'm saying is that i am more my father's son than i realized
posted by murphy slaw at 8:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]

evens are the anti-pringles
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

A lot of people were saying this after Bush II, and some of them probably left.

[Raises hand]. I was planning to leave anyways, but can't deny it was fun talking with old drunk Japanese fishermen complaining about GWB and his stupid oil crusades and being able to pretty much agree with everything they said, only adding that at least there were plenty of Americans who feel the same way too.
posted by p3t3 at 8:51 PM on August 9, 2016

I think that for a lot of us, it's kind of a moot point, because we probably wouldn't be able to leave. I am sure I would want to, but I am not sure I could get a visa and find a job anywhere else.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:55 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm curious what you think the specific difference between living in the US and not is, when it comes to helping the country.

Morale, and daily exposure. Expats have infinitesimal effect on domestic politics. To leave is to disengage. Not meant to be accusatory at all; I'd be totally torn in your situation. Although I don't really know what other country would be safe at this point; this shit seems to be a global virus.

I think our daily interactions with people are incredibly politically charged, and no longer having those interactions means your voice is gone from a sphere where it was otherwise far more tangible than any random tweet (or thoughtful mefi comment).
posted by aspersioncast at 8:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

The massive interest in this thread proves the Evan McMullin phenomenon has taken off.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [51 favorites]

I'm not through the looking glass as much as I'm looking for another shot glass.

I'm up to a highball glass, two ice cubes, and then as much bourbon as can fit.
posted by mikelieman at 8:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

More like Evan McMentum, amirite
posted by town of cats at 8:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

if evan mcmullin wanted us to talk about him he should have changed his name to steve.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

If everyone who commented in this thread signed Evan McMullin's petition, he'd even get on the ballot!
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think that for a lot of us, it's kind of a moot point, because we probably wouldn't be able to leave.

A thousand times this. There is a certain privilege in having the option to go back, or to leave.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Especially ironic when under discussion is others being forced to do one or the other.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I wonder if any countries would offer political asylum.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:09 PM on August 9, 2016

FYI If you leave the US it's likely you will never again enjoy a pizza that is not slightly wrong in some way
posted by theodolite at 9:09 PM on August 9, 2016 [51 favorites]

Ah dammit, you're right. That is actually a pretty fair and reasonable point from the TF. Well played.

Don't worry, aspersioncast. I think it startled the heck out of everyone.
posted by winna at 9:10 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Besides that, the only trump signage I've seen is another truck with a Trump bumper sticker (just one) in my office parking lot. Funny thing is that I live in Fairfax County, VA (not exactly Trump territory) but I haven't seen any political signs the handful of times this year I've driven elsewhere in Virginia.

I know I'm REALLY late to respond to this, but speaking from a Baltimore City point of view (yes, I know — everything's relative), uhhh, actually, you ARE Trump territory, at least from MY point of view. Relatively speaking. There's still shitloads of defense-contracting companies in Fairfax County, my friend. Certainly compared to MoCo, PG, Howard, and DEFINITELY compared to Baltimore County, and . . . well, compared to Baltimore City, Fairfax County might as well be the middle of a missile silo.

. . . or whatever the proper military terminology is for that stuff. I wouldn't know; I'm basically a socialist.

(Granted, a small-business owner who supported Bernie and is still bitter about it, but will pull the lever for Hillary anyway. Despite the fact that I'm in the top 4%, income-wise and my business's minimum wage is $15. What can I say; I'm a complicated guy. But I'm blessed (despite being atheist) and I don't forget it for a minute.)
posted by CommonSense at 9:12 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

It seems to have died down a little, but for those of you talking about fleeing the country because of Trump: Please don't. The rest of us need you. A lot of people were saying this after Bush II, and some of them probably left. But warts and all this country has some decent ideals (which it constantly fails to live up to), and backing out of it because you can doesn't help the people who don't have the luxury.

I'm sorry, but no. I'm an Ashkenazi Jew, and the only reason I'm alive at all today is that a branch of my family saw the writing on the wall and got the fuck out of Galicia at the last minute. The much larger branch that decided to stay behind in their land... well, there's a reason that Jews in the US tend not to have very big extended families.

I salute those of you who are willing to stay and fight or do whatever else. Me, I'm learning from my ancestors' example and getting the fuck on that boat. I've got my plans made and my (metaphorical) bag packed already. See you in Zurich.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:17 PM on August 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

Evan who?
posted by Artw at 9:18 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I salute those of you who are willing to stay and fight or do whatever else.

Immediate (bipartisan?) impeachment for his campaign graft.

The RNC would get the GOP back, and we'd get Pence. Which is horrible, but not enough to make me flee the country.

I think.

This is never going to happen.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:19 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

The campaign graft could land him in legal trouble after he loses too.
posted by yesster at 9:21 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

On the heels of Donald and Hobbes comes Zapp Brannigan + Trump quotes. (Sorry about the lewd imgur user name in the latter link.)
posted by dhens at 9:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Evan who?

Him?
posted by EarBucket at 9:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Joe Lieberman is back?

Ugh.

There's a name I was totally fine with never having to hear again. And 2016 could certainly do without him rising from the politically dead to add his 2c.

Just go away Joe.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 9:29 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

So, speaking of Trump signs and Texas's increasingly pink hue, I left my house for the first time in a week today (long story). And while I was blinking at the sun like a mole, I was also looking around for signs of Trump supporters. Because I felt like I hadn't seen a lot of them.

Mind you, I live in a VERY red part of Texas. Local races rarely have democratic candidates because it's seen as a huge waste of money. In 2008 my husband and I were both harassed in public for having Obama bumper stickers on our cars (so much so my husband started to be afraid of being shot.)

So today, I didn't see a single Trump sign or sticker. I passed a giant pickup with a giant confederate flag and "Don't Tread on Me" flag, but no Trump branded stuff. I asked my husband if he's seen much, since he gets around a lot more than me. "Not really," was his answer. A couple of stickers here or there. But honestly nothing like some of y'all have described.

So I honestly feel like Trump is Not Going Over Well in Texas. For one thing, he's a New Yorker, which, well, those salsa commercials weren't exaggerating much. His shtick doesn't go over well here. We have plenty of racists and people willing to be pandered to, but they prefer their pandering with a Southern Accent. (Preferably a fake-ass Texas one like W had.)

So, take that for what it's worth, but I'm personally rather excited to see what actually happens come Election Day. I think if we could actually convince not only the parties, but the actual voters in Texas that Democrats have a chance of winning, you'd see a big shift.
posted by threeturtles at 9:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Evan who?

Him?

Egg?
posted by aspersioncast at 9:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Donald Trump said that it’s “time for a tougher tone” against Democratic challenger Hillary Clinton on Tuesday, hours after saying earlier in the day “the Second Amendment" may be the only way to stop her from appointing federal judges if elected president. /real


Saying they weren’t afraid to take the gloves off for the general election if need be, the campaign team for Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump reportedly considered the possibility Monday of pivoting their strategy and going negative. /fake, a week ago
posted by EarBucket at 9:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

See you in Zurich.

Last I checked the SVP was a pretty serious concern.

Fight it here, or fight it there, I guess?
posted by aspersioncast at 9:46 PM on August 9, 2016

See you in Zurich.

Um last I checked the SVP was a pretty serious concern.

Fight it here, or fight it there, I guess?

It wouldn't have been my first choice, but it's what the circumstances I find myself in have made the most feasible choice for a backup destination.

I wasn't kidding about having my plans made; I'm literally ready to go.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:48 PM on August 9, 2016

I realized something this week - save for the age requirement, I honestly think that I, personally, would be a better president than Donald Trump. I'm not sure that could be said of any other major party nominee ever.

Quick test: can you see Russia from your house?
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:51 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I thought I saw someone wearing a Trump hat in Portland. It was just a different red baseball cap, but I did a double take and the guy saw me do it. "I thought you were wearing a Trump hat," I explained. We both laughed.
posted by chrchr at 9:52 PM on August 9, 2016 [30 favorites]

Put a bird on it?
posted by aspersioncast at 9:54 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I thought I saw someone wearing a Trump hat in Portland. It was just a different red baseball cap, but I did a double take and the guy saw me do it. "I thought you were wearing a Trump hat," I explained. We both laughed.

A friend of mine bought a "Make America Great Again" hat as a goof in the early days of the campaign when Trump was still just a dumb, sick joke, and he regrets it to this day. He wants to get rid of it, but he doesn't wanna throw it out for the same reason that trying to throw away the cursed doll in a horror movie is always a bad idea.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:57 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

As someone mentioned, I'm really worried that there will be a LOT of trump-supporting men who are going to try to convince their wives that they should do mail-in votes... together.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over this, considering only three states allow vote by mail, and Oregon and Wasington are locks for HRC, while Colorado is turning bluer and bluer each time Trump gives a speech.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Introducing the Trump Doughnut at Voodoo Doughnut. It's just a pile of human feces covered in orange icing and garnished with anthrax sprinkles, but the media will insist that it tastes delicious, and that the other doughnuts are just as problematic.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

Burning the hat is the obvious answer. Or, keep it as a souvenir of the time that guy actually ran for president.
posted by wallabear at 10:05 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think I've commented only a handful of times in all of these election threads. I consider myself fairly politically aware, but have to admit that my political beliefs have mostly expressed themselves as online arguments, Facebook posts, and arguing with my parents. And a one time donation to Obama's campaign in 2008 and 2012.

The minute Trump finished his convention speech, I donated to Hillary's campaign, and will make that a monthly donation until the election. I'm ashamed it took me that long to commit, but there you are.

After conversations with my wife, brother and sister-in-law about what I was doing about my political beliefs, and reading in these threads about people getting involved for the first time, I signed up to volunteer with the HRC campaign this week. I'll be doing phone banking this coming Monday, and may end up doing some canvassing as well.

These threads and this community played a large part in making the leap into tangible action. So, thank you!
posted by adamp88 at 10:10 PM on August 9, 2016 [47 favorites]

> he doesn't wanna throw it out

Make plans for a ritual burning, but don't carry them out just yet. If the unthinkable should happen, he'll want one for social camouflage.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:13 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

For whatever reason, I just skimmed the election night 2008 thread and could not believe how much it feels like a document from a simpler, much happier time. Maybe I'm just older now, but the sense of darkness and disorder this election is bringing to my feeling of the world is new in my life. Does anyone else feel this? I'm not even sure that Hillary winning will bring true joy or relief -- just a sort of "the chemo seems to be working" kind of feeling.

Am I alone in this?
posted by argybarg at 10:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Expatss can't work on political campaigns, if that's something you're inclined to do. And I assume you can't write your congressman if you don't live in anyone's district.

But no, the reason I can talk about having a responsibility to fix my country is because I am white enough to consider it my country. And I don't actually have anywhere else to go. My job skills aren't worth much here. I don't see myself immigrating legally until the international community considers me a refugee.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a plausible reason you haven't seen many Trump signs, his barebones campaign doesn't have any sort of ground game to distribute the physical signs effectively. The ones you do see probably had to make a special effort to get one, or may have literally ordered a 3rd party sign/bumper sticker through one of the endless rightwinggriftmachine websites out there not part of the official Trump campaign.

Existence/lack of signs has about the same relevance as number of Twitter followers, no one tell Hannity, but it's pretty likely that's the reason if there's a dearth of signs in Trump Country.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Maybe I'm just older now, but the sense of darkness and disorder this election is bringing to my feeling of the world is new in my life. Does anyone else feel this?

I was just wondering earlier tonight if I could stay drunk until Election Day, so yes.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here’s the Most Indecipherable Defense Yet of Donald Trump’s ‘Second Amendment People’ Remarks:

“He was saying what could happen, as you said, what could happen,” [Katrina Pierson] told Jake Tapper on “The Lead” after he pointed out that Trump specifically referred to events after the election.

“He doesn’t want that to happen,” Pierson said.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:22 PM on August 9, 2016

only three states allow vote by mail, and Oregon and Wasington are locks for HRC, while Colorado is turning bluer and bluer

Absentee ballots are vote-by-mail, and they're in every state. 8 states have no-excuse permanent absentee options; that's not as simple as just getting mailed a ballot, but it means that a one-time signup covers the voter until they change addresses.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has the Secret Service said anything yet about what they are doing in response to Trump's threatening language? I don't want to give him any room to become a martyr, but on the other hand Republicans do seem to have crossed a line, here.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:42 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

> For whatever reason, I just skimmed the election night 2008 thread and could not believe how much it feels like a document from a simpler, much happier time. Maybe I'm just older now, but the sense of darkness and disorder this election is bringing to my feeling of the world is new in my life. Does anyone else feel this? I'm not even sure that Hillary winning will bring true joy or relief -- just a sort of "the chemo seems to be working" kind of feeling.

From that thread:

> Beautiful. You guys actually did it.

MSNBC currently has Obama at 338 EV's, with 51% of the popular vote. Senate is +5 Dem. It keeps going up, like a slot machine hitting a jackpot. That is a frickin' mandate. And the world is largely participating in it : they're celebrating in Kenya, for Xenu's sake.

Foreshadowing. This comment was foreshadowing. This is the origin of the villain of 2016 — he's the guy who saw Kenyans celebrating and got super pissed off and weird about it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Khizr and Ghazala Khan, you were the spark that lit the fire. I raise my glass of overpriced bodega Sauvignon Blanc to you.

If it turns out that that really was the turning point, it will delight me to no end to think that Trump probably could have survived taking a swing at Khizr Khan but he just couldn't keep his imbecilic mouth shut when there was a woman to be attacked and had to go after Ghazala. It would please me greatly if, out of all of his manifest faults, misogyny should turn out to be the one that causes Trump's downfall (as indeed I think it will be, whether or not Ghazala Khan turns out to be the misstep from which he can't recover.)
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

Has the Secret Service said anything yet about what they are doing in response to Trump's threatening language? I don't want to give him any room to become a martyr, but on the other hand Republicans do seem to have crossed a line, here.

I've come to accept that we're in the post-Obama Secret Service era. Which is to say that anything goes. Nothing will be done.
posted by CommonSense at 10:50 PM on August 9, 2016

Better cut out all the Hamilton references, that dude was into Second Amendment solutions before there was anything to amend.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

It dawns on me that if Trump were a student at our school, he'd be expelled for threatening a fellow student like this.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

The Clinton campaign is opening a local office downtown tomorrow, and I'm going to stop by.

As for the leaving-or-staying thing: I've heard stories about my dad's aunts and uncles freezing to death in gulag copper mines. Considering the bloodsoaked chaos that they endured, it's a miracle that his folks made it more or less intact to America, and in that light it's a miracle that I exist today as a natural born American citizen. In the event that things ever really do get dire, I'd consider it an honor to stay and try to mitigate the damage in some small way. Of course, I say that with the understanding that I have the immense advantage of being a Standard Issue White Dude. (The only deviation from said Dudeness being my blatantly foreign-sounding name. It's European, but like, exotic European.)
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 11:02 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump is amazingly good at pushing people's buttons. I don't imagine there is anything the Secret Service can do about Trump's semi-deniable calls for Hillary's assassination. Anything that interferes with his campaign would just provide him with (metaphorical) ammunition. It's a win-win situation for him.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Former Senator Joe Lieberman emerges from the Where Are They Now? file to say he’s thinking of supporting Donald Trump. Nice day for it!

What the fuck Joe. Connecticut literally can't stand you already. You only won back your "independent" spot because Republicans who preferred you over Ned Lamont decided they'd rather vote for you instead of their even less likely of winning candidate.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:05 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Better cut out all the Hamilton references, that dude was into Second Amendment solutions before there was anything to amend.

Nah, Hamilton may have wanted to fight everyone who pissed him off, but he hated the Second Amendment just as much as he hated the rest of the Bill of Rights.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 11:26 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Using science and math to analyze the contents of Trump's tweets.

My analysis, shown below, concludes that the Android and iPhone tweets are clearly from different people, posting during different times of day and using hashtags, links, and retweets in distinct ways.

Ooh, hit him where it really hurts and take away his verified checkmark.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Ooh, hit him where it really hurts and take away his verified checkmark.

I suspect this isn't enough to take away the checkmark - even if one could absolutely prove that some tweets were from him and others were from "his team," he's hardly the first or only politician to do this. (Hilary's tweets even say which are specifically from her.)

Twitter verified accounts don't seem to require that every post is made by the person involved; more that it's authorized specifically by them. If one of Donnie's tweets started getting posted in a setting he didn't like, and he came out and said, "not me! That was random staff intern! I would never say that!" Twitter might consider yanking the verified mark because he's no longer claiming the twitter account represents him.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:59 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Quick reminder that Dan Quayle misspelled "potato" and we all decided he was unfit for office.

But he WAS unfit for office. We decided earlier due to his complete lack of credentials.

The potatoe episode was just hilarious confirmation. Especially the part where he argued with the 3rd grader who told him he was wrong and tried to browbeat the kid.
posted by msalt at 12:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

I wasn't kidding about having my plans made; I'm literally ready to go.

Where are you planning to go to avoid nuclear winter?
posted by happyroach at 12:15 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is my list of places that is safe, at least in the short term.
posted by vbfg at 12:16 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Secret Service must have a lot of practice at visiting random wackos who make threatening remarks, and putting the fear of god into them. I like to imagine Trump’s protection detail taking him to one side and suddenly being a lot more intimidating than he’s used to.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:33 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

"Mr Trump! Stop saying things like that! Or we'll tell you again!"
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:36 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

The whole thing about leaving seems something like a weird liberal version of doomsday prepping, TBH. But I don't and won't have the means or ability to leave. Hell I couldn't even leave Texas. And it means I have experience living in hostile territory.

On the other hand I have a cousin in Italy who desperately wants to return to the states (she has dual citizenship) so maybe we could trade homes or something. Of course, it's not like Italy doesn't have terrible fascist politicians as well. As others have said, it doesn't seem like anywhere is really guaranteed to be safer than anywhere else.
posted by threeturtles at 12:38 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was visiting Toronto when the Blaze massacre happened. If I move there, it's not because of Trump but because Canada has more sane gun laws. Of course, I'll be just as heartbroken up there whenever a massacre happens so I'm not sure it really makes any difference.

Oh, but, yeah, my brother-in-law needs to get naturalized (he's from the Philippines and he's lived here since he was six) just in case Trump wins. It's a really stupid year.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:43 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

How stupid a year is it? I keep thinking "man, I miss Bowie but I'm glad he didn't have to live to see this. "
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:44 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Not just Bowie, I'm glad Abe Vigoda didn't have to live to see this.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:10 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Calm down, everyone - right now, the US is a lot saner than most of the rest of the world: you have a crazy presidential candidate, and you are not going to elect him.
posted by mumimor at 2:03 AM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

David Bowie and Abe Vigoda made me wonder if Prince lived long enough to comment on Trump, and... Well, apparently he commented on Trump in 1990.

So weird to remember when Trump was just a punchline and not a nightmare.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:22 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bowie was the last Angel holding back the apocalypse. His assassination was part of Donald's contract with Satan.
posted by humanfont at 2:28 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

During the cold war, nuclear winter was part of the crazy mutually assured destruction suicide pact, and a single nuke launched at the behest of a deranged American President won't, itself, force humanity underground to survive. (Not that I believe the US military would obey an unconscientious order in the first place.)

A rural area inside the borders of the USA but away from any military bases is probably safer from nuclear fallout over anywhere else, though possibly less safe for other reasons.

Realistically though, the world as a whole is becoming increasingly polarized, with the rise of ultra-nationalist parties all over Europe and Asia. So, sure, you can move to another country, but unless you are going to stand up and fight for freedom in your new adopted country, it might be easier to stay where you are and fight them on home turf.

The grass always looks greener on the other side. Sometimes it simply is, and sometimes there's a huge amount of maintenance work that isn't readily visible.
posted by fragmede at 2:45 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Well, I guess he's pushed my buttons.

I want this level of discourse to be unacceptable. It doesn't mean second amendment supporters will be silenced for the rest of their lives. It means you don't make jokes about the second amendment. Not this year.

I don't know what needs to happen here. But it's simply not enough that a few more GOPers distance themselves from him. It's not enough, not with this ongoing level of gun violence.
posted by angrycat at 3:34 AM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

It just ocurred to me that in a Trump Presidency, orange is the new black.

(My wife is now threatening to divorce me.)
posted by Autumn Leaf at 3:41 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

ChurchHatesTucker: "Who would Team Hillary get to play Trump in mock debates?"

Martin Shkreli
posted by double block and bleed at 4:05 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

There was an article I read about Obama supporters who were now supporting Trump with that title.
posted by peacheater at 4:05 AM on August 10, 2016

I like to imagine Trump’s protection detail taking him to one side and suddenly being a lot more intimidating than he’s used to.

I imagine that "Trump's" protective detail is as focused on protecting US ( and the US) from him...
posted by mikelieman at 4:06 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I thought I saw someone wearing a Trump hat in Portland. It was just a different red baseball cap, but I did a double take and the guy saw me do it. "I thought you were wearing a Trump hat," I explained.

My boyfriend has a t-shirt that says "Triumph!" in big bold letters and an odd font that he's no longer allowed to wear outside for a similar reason.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 4:18 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Am I alone in this?


Nope
posted by OmieWise at 4:26 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Predictwise betting margin is over 80% for Clinton for the first time. It had been close, then dipped a bit back toward Trump in the past few days.
posted by OmieWise at 4:29 AM on August 10, 2016

Bowie was the last Angel holding back the apocalypse. His assassination was part of Donald's contract with Satan.

If that's the case then I'd say Trump didn't read the fine print of the contract because right now he's getting screwed.
posted by Talez at 4:46 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Predictwise betting margin is over 80% for Clinton for the first time. It had been close, then dipped a bit back toward Trump in the past few days.

Reassuring, though the Nowcast has gone slightly towards Trump in the last day or so (I know, I know).

My issue with Predictwise is that it is still based on the behavior of people, which can often be irrational, even in aggregate. For example, it was still at 85% Remain on the morning of the Brexit vote, despite recent polls that showed the vote likely to be a tossup. And yes, 15% chances do happen, but it did not seem that the betting behavior was reflecting the polls at all.
posted by peacheater at 4:51 AM on August 10, 2016

Hillary will win. Trump supporters will sink back into the primordial ooze. Republican Congress members who are at present shaking in their boots will come back and it will be business as usual: obstructivism.

I like to think that Hillary knows where bodies are buried and that she's not afraid to do some arm-twisting to get her legislation enacted. But we must never forget. We need to replace "Republican" with "the Party of Trump" to remind all those Congress members who put their party membership before their country, who didn't speak up when it counted, who by their silence condoned this garbage, that they nearly destroyed this country by allowing a dangerous man to run as the representative of their party.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:00 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

lieberman has always been the king of "i'm so moderate i might just defect to the other team if you don't give me what i want". a faithless attention whore.

Weren't people just saying that this is exactly the sort of person that Hillary Clinton must get on her side if she wants to win? It's very important to win over the faithless attention seekers. As long as they're on the Right.
posted by indubitable at 5:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Whether Trump was throwing rancid red meat to the crowd only to keep up the rally's energy, as he does, or threatening violence under the thin cover of a bad joke, as he also does, this is exactly the kind of vile rhetoric that resulted in the assassination of MP Jo Cox during the Brexit campaign.

Trump can't just be beaten in a regular election - he has to be so thoroughly defeated that he and his followers have to flee from the political landscape and into the outer darkness.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:06 AM on August 10, 2016 [36 favorites]

At the gym, I always end up near the Fox News TV for some reason. Today, they were doubling down on "Hillary is too old" and grasping at any straw they could to pull Hillary down.

I really hope the Hillary age thing backfires on them because Trump is older, and because many of their viewers are around Clinton's age.
posted by drezdn at 5:06 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

For example, I bet she could win Lieberman's endorsement if she just compromises and promises a full ground invasion of Iran. It's important to reach across the aisle!
posted by indubitable at 5:07 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think the point was that she's getting these endorsements from the right without having to change her platform.
posted by like_neon at 5:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [50 favorites]

My boyfriend has a t-shirt that says "Triumph!" in big bold letters and an odd font that he's no longer allowed to wear outside for a similar reason.


Me too. It's my shirt from the marathon I ran a couple years ago, and it's really comfy, but I've gotten "Oh god, I thought that said 'Trump'!" comments the last couple of times I've worn it outside the house. The last time was the final straw--it's now an inside shirt until December, if not longer.
posted by damayanti at 5:12 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

stEvan McMullin. There. Now we can talk about him.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 5:28 AM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Steve McMullin? Isn't he running a 3rd party campaign for President? That sounds like a candidate I can get behind!
posted by sporkwort at 5:36 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump is older but has his youthful orange sheen.
posted by Artw at 5:48 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Foreign Correspondent on Australian ABC TV last night: Behind the scenes with the Never Trump delegates at the RNC.
posted by valetta at 5:49 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Weren't people just saying that this is exactly the sort of person that Hillary Clinton must get on her side if she wants to win?

No, no it wasn't. It feels like you're being deliberately disingenuous to score some point that isn't supported by the facts in evidence.
posted by OmieWise at 6:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

Weren't people just saying that this is exactly the sort of person that Hillary Clinton must get on her side if she wants to win? It's very important to win over the faithless attention seekers. As long as they're on the Right.

Not even slightly. Lieberman, as shown here, is a snake. The people she really wants to win over are Republicans with principles, and especially faithful ones because they are likely to stick around.
posted by Francis at 6:11 AM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

Weren't people just saying that this is exactly the sort of person that Hillary Clinton must get on her side if she wants to win? It's very important to win over the faithless attention seekers. As long as they're on the Right.

I mean, all she's offered faithless leftists is almost everything they liked about Sanders except not being Hillary Clinton and the most progressive set of campaign promises in history! This is an outrage!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:13 AM on August 10, 2016 [51 favorites]

So now that Trump is going all in on "it was a joke you guys, geez!" I'm having all kinds of flashbacks to, oh, idk, my entire life as a woman having guys say gross, awful shit to me and then being like "ha ha it was a joke, why can girls never take a joke????" I think about 80% of my life between the ages of 14 and 20 was spent scowling while all the dudes around me laughed their asses off.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:16 AM on August 10, 2016 [89 favorites]

The GOP’s Obsession with Detroit is a Dangerously Coded Attack on Black Leadership

There is something about black-heavy Detroit that has made it a central magnet for very white-dominated Republican causes. And so, no, as Trump remarked Monday, there was no “begin[ning] of a great national conversation about economic renewal for America.” Lots of Republicans, strangely enough, had beat him to it. One of the more notable GOP primary debates was held, you guessed it, in gloomy Detroit, where Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL), miscalculating and desperate as ever, lavished praise on Gov. Rick Snyder (“I give the governor credit … he took responsibility”), even as evidence of his malfeasant complicity in the Flint water crisis piled up.

The surface narrative for Republicans is nose-thumbing at Democrats for ruining America’s great cities. True, Detroit was once among them. World class, in fact. “Every policy that has failed this city and so many others is a policy supported by Hillary Clinton,” Trump bull-horned the other day, running down a list of what Democrats did and didn’t do, a tale of what put Detroit – and other cities like it – on a path to economic Hiroshima.[...]

Here Republican presidential hopefuls bear the gift of guilt-free absolution for wealthy and middle class whites who abandoned Detroit in its hard times, particularly the times when it got too black-run for their comfort. The choice of mostly white male Detroit Economic Club lays that pretty raw and bare. Republican after Republican has glossed over the critical White Flight plot to Detroit’s story of urban decline, instead blaming unhinged “Democrat leadership” for sandblasting cities into decaying pencil nubs.

“Democrat leadership” is really code for black Democratic Mayors, especially with the constant focus on cities like troubled Detroit, Cleveland and Philadelphia, cities that were managed through decades of such.

This was an angle I had been blind to-- that when Republicans talk about "Democrat Leadership" it is often a stand-in for "Black Leadership" I guess because I don't automatically think Black when I hear Democrat.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:16 AM on August 10, 2016 [38 favorites]

I mean, all she's offered faithless leftists is almost everything they liked about Sanders except not being Hillary Clinton

yeah but that is the most critical important part which has nothing at all to do with gender because reasons
posted by winna at 6:18 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Looks like some people . . . aren't taking Trump's statement as a call to vote.

Edited to remove second link because statements were made before Trump's.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:18 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

“Democrat leadership” is really code for black Democratic Mayors, especially with the constant focus on cities like troubled Detroit, Cleveland and Philadelphia, cities that were managed through decades of such.

I agree with the main thrust of this article, but it did conspicuously fail to mention that Detroit's current mayor, Mike Duggan, is a white Democrat.
posted by palindromic at 6:22 AM on August 10, 2016

Looks like some people . . . aren't taking Trump's statement as a call to vote.

Yeah, it's straight-up, textbook stochastic terrorism, and we know how that story ends. When even The Mustache can see it, it's got to be pretty blatant.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:22 AM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

“Democrat leadership” is really code for black Democratic Mayors, especially with the constant focus on cities like troubled Detroit, Cleveland and Philadelphia, cities that were managed through decades of such.

Yup, also Pittsburgh. No Republican mayor since the 30s and by all measures a massive rust belt success story.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:23 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> I really hope the Hillary age thing backfires on them because Trump is older, and because many of their viewers are around Clinton's age.

Yeah, but she's female, which means she's 157 in Republican years.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:27 AM on August 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

So now that Trump is going all in on "it was a joke you guys, geez!"

which is completely inconsistent with yesterday's excuse that Trump specifically meant 2nd Am. 'people' and not 2nd Am. 'solutions' or 'remedies,' which is the typical bomb-throwing lingo.

When is the press corps going to actually press him on these fibs? CNN's going with the this morning's #TrumpedUp Judicial Watch Hill-mail press release like it's actual journalism.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:31 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the point was that she's getting these endorsements from the right without having to change her platform.

We really, really don't know that. Progressives worried about Hilary's hawkishness have very valid concerns seeing her courting Neocons. Right now is when promises are being made that will shape her administration and foreign policy, and she's tacking right into the Republican foreign policy establishment.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:32 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cher's anti-Trump tweets toward Trump inspired her fan, designer Anna Niess, to make stickers, posters, and buttons featuring the “I’m With CHer” phrase.



Today Cher tweets. "some people say he wears umpa-lumpa depends
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:33 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm sure Cher is a lovely person, but her Twitter feed makes my eyes bleed.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:36 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

she's tacking right into the Republican foreign policy establishment.

She doesn't have to tack there, for the most part. Hillary is a hawkish interventionist. She may be driven by different ideology than the GWB era neocons, but she tends to support the same defense and security policies. It's more like the realist foreign policy establishment can pin their endorsement to that part of her track record to justify ditching Trump.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:37 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I agree with the main thrust of this article, but it did conspicuously fail to mention that Detroit's current mayor, Mike Duggan, is a white Democrat.

Duggan lived in Livonia (a 92-percent-white suburb) until the very last minute he needed to before running for Mayor of Detroit. He's a poster boy for white flight and white knighting.
posted by Etrigan at 6:39 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

So now that Trump is going all in on "it was a joke you guys, geez!"

I guess Paul Ryan is sticking with that line. CBS: Paul Ryan: Donald Trump's comments are "a joke gone bad"

So Phew! It was just a joke, guise. Jeez. I'll bet the Secret Service is glad to hear that it was all just a joke and no one, no one could possibly take it seriously.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Seeing how I've chosen to stay in MISSISSIPPI in order to try to have some positive effect from within, I don't see leaving the country as all that desirable. (Plus, you guys, there's not another country that would have me--I don't have money, nor a highly-desirable skill-set. Talk of going to another country strikes me as hugely privileged or absolutely ignorant of how hard it is, practically.)

I guess I'll be the person turning out the lights.
posted by thebrokedown at 6:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

We really, really don't know that.

What? Of course we do. Platforms and campaign positions are public things.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:41 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

What? Of course we do. Platforms and campaign positions are public things.

But but but SHEEPLE! Secret agendas! Conspiracies!
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:43 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Because if she promised to appoint Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of Defense or something as a condition for the next round of endorsements, that's definitely going to make it into the public platform.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:43 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

But but but SHEEPLE! Secret agendas! Conspiracies!

Sure, joke now, but this is the time, right now, when future wars and arms deals are being planned for behind closed doors. I'd like if progressives had a seat at the table, but maybe you would prefer to cede that ground to Kissinger.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:46 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Because if she promised to appoint Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of Defense or something as a condition for the next round of endorsements, that's definitely going to make it into the public platform.

Not a chance. Seriously. C'mon.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:47 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

And the argument of Things Clinton Is Actually Doing vs. Fantasy Hypothetical Clinton continues.
posted by kyrademon at 6:47 AM on August 10, 2016 [65 favorites]

Because if she promised to appoint Condoleezza Rice as Secretary of Defense or something as a condition for the next round of endorsements

That is illegal, and I highly, highly doubt she'd do it even if she weren't under such intense scrutiny.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 6:47 AM on August 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

Foreign Correspondent on Australian ABC TV last night: Behind the scenes with the Never Trump delegates at the RNC.

I watched this thinking all the time OMG Corb, this is what you lived through.
posted by moody cow at 6:49 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

So you're saying that we don't know that she didn't secretly promise people things? I guess. We also don't know that she hasn't secretly promised to surrender the US to the radicals supporting forced gay marriage under shariah law or that she isn't secretly someone else masquerading as Hillary Clinton or that she isn't secretly the player-character of the entity playing this awful simulation.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:49 AM on August 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

She's not stupid. She realizes that she is in a winning position here, and a handful of Republican endorsements probably isn't going to sway that nation. I think you are all underestimating the extent to which this is just what Hillary Clinton is like - she wants to pull people in, she prides herself on working with people to get the policies she wants passed. She is not stupid enough to promise Condoleeza Rice anything for her endorsement - she probably just sees this as a chance to allow Republicans a chance to save face. This is politics, there is nothing to be gained from rubbing her opponents' faces in the dirt.
posted by peacheater at 6:50 AM on August 10, 2016 [28 favorites]

...or that she isn't secretly the player-character of the entity playing this awful simulation.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe

As long as we're not all engulfed in flames on Election Day, for the renewal of the Republic.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:53 AM on August 10, 2016

Weren't people just saying that this is exactly the sort of person that Hillary Clinton must get on her side if she wants to win?

No, no it wasn't. It feels like you're being deliberately disingenuous to score some point that isn't supported by the facts in evidence.

Oh, really?

> How do you get a wave election if you don't get voters from the other party? It's either them or non-voters, and the thing about non-voters is that they don't vote.

…

> Although I agree Kissinger is a bridge too far, getting people like Whitman saying "vote Hillary" is actually really important. In order to get anything actually done, Hillary needs both the House and Senate. She has an okay chance at the Senate at best, and a miniscule chance at the House.

…

> She's been supporting the down ballot for a long time. And if she wants to support the down ballot candidates then one of the best things she can do is flip Republican voters. Meg Whitman is an excellent choice to try to bring tens of thousands of Republicans over in a year Democratic turnout should be a trump card (Kissenger not so much - an evil genius is still evil).

…

> Also keep in mind that Meg Whitman is incredibly wealthy and money isn't red or blue it's green and it spends equally well coming from a disaffected Republican or a loyal Democrat.

I think maybe you should go back and read the thread before you come jumping in accusing others of arguing in bad faith.
posted by indubitable at 6:53 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

How, after last night, has Trump gained in the Nowcast, Polls, and PollsPlus? How is calling for assassination a booster?
posted by tzikeh at 6:55 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Khan flap is receding.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think maybe you should go back and read the thread before you come jumping in accusing others of arguing in bad faith.

And I think maybe you should go back and understand what is being said as you've quoted me there.

How, after last night, has Trump gained in the Nowcast, Polls, and PollsPlus? How is calling for assassination a booster?

Polling isn't instant. It'll be about three days before the results of that start coming through.
posted by Francis at 6:56 AM on August 10, 2016

C'mon. Seriously. This rhetoric about Clinton is toxic and basically right out of the GOP playbook. Clinton is an interventionist, but there's no evidence that she is "planning future wars" or trying to signal that she wants Republicans to run her foreign policy.

Her team is doing exactly what it should be doing, which is pressing its advantage. Almost every major news outlet has had some version of "GOP leaders are fleeing Trump" articles this week. Collins was front page news in the Post and the Times. That is exactly what you want to convince reasonable voters that Trump is a train wreck. Momentum may be largely a fairy tale in electoral politics, but it's well known that people want to be on the winning "team."

Frankly, I think it shows the political naivete of "progressives" that they see in this standard practice a nefarious intent on Clinton's part. If you can't build a coalition, I think you've got real problems. If you can't play the game of reducing your opponents support by, you know, any means possible, I think you've got real problems. Elections are not won by policy positions alone.
posted by OmieWise at 6:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [68 favorites]

Are you equating Whitman and Lieberman? Whitman has shown herself to have at least some principles, while Lieberman is an irredeemable snake. There is a difference.
posted by peacheater at 6:57 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think the point was that she's getting these endorsements from the right without having to change her platform.

Well her platform includes "I promise not to set the world on fire" so currently yep it's beating the other guy.
posted by corb at 7:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [27 favorites]

How, after last night, has Trump gained in the Nowcast, Polls, and PollsPlus? How is calling for assassination a booster?

1) the nowcast is garbage that will drive you nuts
2) polls lag the 24-hour news cycle by a LOT
posted by murphy slaw at 7:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

That Friedman column....

The first line sent chills down my spine.

"And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin got assassinated."
posted by zarq at 7:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [39 favorites]

Apparently people want to move during every election season and pretty much no one does. I honestly find it a sort of valueless position to take. I understand people's concern but the people most affected can't afford to move across town let alone "make plans for Sweden."

Also, "elsewhere" isn't being all that inclusive these days, either.
posted by zutalors! at 7:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Does she even have to signal? Obama appointed Chuck Hagel for Christ's sake. Clinton is widely acknowledged to be well to the right of even Obama on military adventurism, she's not suddenly going to become a pacifist without real work being done by the left to pull her that direction.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think maybe you should go back and read the thread before you come jumping in accusing others of arguing in bad faith.

Thanks for the suggestion, I've read every comment in this thread and all the other ones. There's a difference between arguing that seeking endorsements is good, and that compromising on principles is good. You argued that people have been urging the latter, but they have not.

I'm not sure how else to read "For example, I bet she could win Lieberman's endorsement if she just compromises and promises a full ground invasion of Iran. It's important to reach across the aisle!" as anything other than bad faith on your part. Do you honestly think anyone here was arguing for that? Do you think it's something that Clinton would compromise about? Seriously? If you want to act like an innocent here being misinterpreted could you explain your comment suggesting that Clinton would start a war to get Leiberman's endorsement in a way that makes clear it isn't in bad faith?

I don't think purity that does not allow for undercutting your opponents support by courting his potential supporters is a very useful position to hold.
posted by OmieWise at 7:05 AM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

could you explain your comment suggesting that Clinton would start a war to get Leiberman's endorsement in a way that makes clear it isn't in bad faith?

I'll take Sarcasm for $200, Alex.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:07 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clinton nominated Tim Kaine as her VP, and he has strongly advocated against Obama's use of force without a formal declaration of war with Congressional consent.

I find that an interesting choice, for all that she's an interventionist she has chosen a running mate who advocates restraint.
posted by zutalors! at 7:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump Has Left GOP with No Good Options:

After leaving the Republican National Convention in Cleveland, Trump climbed the rhetorical jackass tree and then hurled himself earthward, hitting every branch on the way down.
...
GOP leaders contemplated pulling the emergency brake on the Trump Train only when the nominee said he wouldn’t endorse Ryan or senators John McCain and Kelly Ayotte.

The message was clear: Only his willingness to endanger top Republicans’ reelection was truly unacceptable behavior. Nothing else Trump said or did until then was beyond the pale.

posted by kirkaracha at 7:10 AM on August 10, 2016 [38 favorites]

Clinton is widely acknowledged to be well to the right of even Obama on military adventurism [emphasis mine]

I'm not being argumentative when I say that I do not understand this reading of the world and Obama's place in it. I understand that Obama has been a disappointment to many because he did not end the wars he promised to end, but I haven't seen that as a choice he made because he likes war, I've seen it as something that he really wanted but was unable to accomplish because the world is seriously fucked up. So I am asking sincerely, could someone lay out the short argument for how Obama failed as a result of his personal choices, rather than geopolitical considerations?

I'll take Sarcasm for $200, Alex.

Yes, I get the sarcasm. But the construction suggests that the tenor of the thread supports thinking about that not as an outrageous choice, but as in line with what had been suggested as a means of courting GOP anti-Trumpers.
posted by OmieWise at 7:11 AM on August 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

I literally cannot leave, no matter how much I might want to, and even though I am a pretty smart and otherwise privileged white lady with a master's degree. I'm not faulting or deriding people who are angry or fearful enough to get the hell out and have the means to do so. I'm disheartened and frightened myself. I'm saying that it's simply not possible for most people.
posted by thebrokedown at 7:11 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Jesus, are they still going with Clinton Slipped on Ice, She's Too Feeble to Serve?

FDR won a World War and ended the Great Depression from a wheelchair.
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:11 AM on August 10, 2016 [50 favorites]

for all that she's an interventionist she has chosen a running mate who advocates restraint

I thought that aspect of Kaine's selection was interesting too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:12 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Apparently people want to move during every election season and pretty much no one does. I honestly find it a sort of valueless position to take. I understand people's concern but the people most affected can't afford to move across town let alone "make plans for Sweden."

As someone who moved countries when younger and childless and with a lot less to tie them down I can say that it's actually pretty hard and not something you can do on a whim.
posted by Artw at 7:15 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

for all that she's an interventionist she has chosen a running mate who advocates restraint

I thought that aspect of Kaine's selection was interesting too.

yes, and in a very incremental and reasonable way. Less "No More War," which is fairly unfeasible to me in the current climate, and more "ask the right people the right way" which doesn't guarantee the right choices but at least is a demonstration of getting things back to the way they're supposed to work.
posted by zutalors! at 7:15 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

FDR won a World War and ended the Great Depression from a wheelchair.

Well, he won half of a World War. And then he died.
posted by Etrigan at 7:17 AM on August 10, 2016

I doubt that Jacques Chirac felt indebted to the myriad socialist/green groups that endorsed him in 2002 because they sought to avoid Le Pen.

I doubt that Republicans who supported Democrat Edwin Edwards over David Duke in Louisiana's 1991 gubernatorial election had much say in Edwards' policy-making.

We have examples of folks crossing party lines to endorse lesser-evil candidates when the alternatives were really quite bad. It looks to me like those endorsers have had limited to no roles in shaping subsequent policy, and that there were not a host of quid pro quo deals put in place to ensure their support.

People who otherwise disagree with Clinton on 100% of her policies can still recognize the danger of Trump, and put aside their policy disagreements - just this once - in service of the greater good. I expect many of these people will still be voting for GOP candidates in downballot races, and will campaign for the GOP candidate in 2020.

Because Trump is such a terrible candidate, Clinton almost certainly would win without moderate GOP support by working within the usual Democratic coalition. She must recognize that the vast majority of these GOP endorsers will not become part of her coalition, and indeed will be opposing many of her policy goals, so what would be the long-term value in courting their support via policy concessions?
posted by palindromic at 7:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Yeah, it's straight-up, textbook stochastic terrorism, and we know how that story ends.

I feel like this is important enough that it needs to become part of mainstream discourse, but for that to happen we need a better name. "Stochastic" isn't the best branding in the world.

"Dog whistle terrorism" isn't great either, but it gets the point across.

Any advertising people want to take a hack at it, I can offer you Internet points in the form of favorites. Because HOLY SHIT do we need people to be taking this seriously.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Jesus, are they still going with Clinton Slipped on Ice, She's Too Feeble to Serve?

I mean, the breaking headline on Google News for a big chunk of yesterday was literally, "Father of Orlando shooter attends Clinton rally*!", with weird insinuations about what that means. I feel like we're in for a lot of random directions in the news media that's desperate to horse-race the shit out of this election, facts be damned.

(* without being asked by Clinton's campaign)
posted by tocts at 7:18 AM on August 10, 2016

It's plausibly deniable terrorism.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:19 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

"At the end of the day, sane people have more in common with each other than insane Republicans have with sane Republicans."
(From the TrumpCast, which blueberry linked in the other still-somewhat-active election thread. I've only listened to two podcasts so far, but there were great guests in those and clear, smart deconstruction of what's going on. The latest one takes apart his economic "plan" from the speech in Detroit.)
posted by Don Pepino at 7:22 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Trump Has Left GOP with No Good Options:

Dark times are truly upon us when Jonah Goldberg is a voice of reason.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:24 AM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

what has the world come to when jonah goldberg has found a problem he can't blame on liberal fascism
posted by murphy slaw at 7:26 AM on August 10, 2016 [21 favorites]

I think there might be a wide gulf in privilege between leaving the country and fleeing the country. One is a choice, one is something you do by any means necessary, legally or not. We might have come to the point where people feel fleeing is their best option.
posted by LionIndex at 7:30 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've been listening to Trumpcast since it started. I highly recommend it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:30 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, he won half of a World War. And then he died.
posted by Etrigan at 10:17 AM on August 10 [+] [!]

Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct! Thank you! (Duh on me...I knew that...)
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:32 AM on August 10, 2016

what has the world come to when jonah goldberg has found a problem he can't blame on liberal fascism

Well, if he hasn't done it himself, many other Republicans have been trying to paint Trump as a Democrat interloper for some time now, so I figure Trump will simply be described as "Central To My Point" (tm) that liberals are fascists.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:33 AM on August 10, 2016

I never dreamt I'd live to see a time when it wasn't just absurd to discuss fleeing America. But here we are.
posted by thebrokedown at 7:35 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't honestly believe that Trump has any chance of winning the presidency. Fleeing is not going to be an issue.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:36 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

I never dreamt I'd live to see a time when it wasn't just absurd to discuss fleeing America. But here we are.

It was definitely a thing in 2000 and 2004.
posted by diogenes at 7:42 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

The whole thing about leaving seems something like a weird liberal version of doomsday prepping, TBH.

See, the big difference between "doomsday" and "a hostile, xenophobic government stripping people of land, property, liberty, and life due to their race/religion/sexuality" is that one of these things has happened in living memory.
posted by Itaxpica at 7:44 AM on August 10, 2016 [37 favorites]

I don't honestly believe that Trump has any chance of winning the presidency. Fleeing is not going to be an issue.

Clinton has an over 50% unfavorable rating, and her opponent is now inciting his supporters to assassinate her.

Let's not remove "flee the country" from our "possible, necessary options" column just yet.
posted by zarq at 7:46 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

It was definitely a thing in 2000 and 2004.

The big difference seems to me to be that in the Bush years, people were talking about fleeing America because they didn't like Bush's politics. Now, people are talking about fleeing America because they're legitimately worried about their personal safety and well-being. That's a big (and to me, terrifying) difference.
posted by Itaxpica at 7:51 AM on August 10, 2016 [27 favorites]

zarq, how is that for serendipity? I was bored the other day and cued up Frontline's Netanyahu episode while I was preparing dinner. They got to the part about Netanyahu inciting protesters after the Oslo accords while they waved around signs like, "RABIN = HITLER" while I was chopping onions and I thought, "That sounds eerily familiar."
posted by indubitable at 7:54 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Zack Beauchamp at Vox: Anyone who thinks Trump was "just joking" about shooting Clinton is missing the point:

But in a certain sense, it doesn’t really matter what Trump intended. This tweetstorm, from Dallas lawyer Jason P. Steed, explains why.

Before becoming a lawyer, Steed was an English professor. He wrote his PhD dissertation on "the social function of humor" and found something important: Jokes about socially unacceptable things aren’t just "jokes." They serve a function of normalizing that unacceptable thing, of telling the people who agree with you that, yes, this is an okay thing to talk about.

This, Steed explains, is why "it’s a joke" isn’t a good defense of racist jokes. By telling the joke, the person is signaling that they think racism is an appropriate thing to express. "Just joking" is just what someone says to the people who don’t appreciate hearing racist stuff — it shouldn’t matter any more than saying "no offense" after saying something offensive.

Steed's tweets are worth reading in full and they are included in the Vox post.
posted by palindromic at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [68 favorites]

I'm don't intend to leave and Trump simply winning wouldn't be enough to make me go. It's totally possible that he could get elected and then go on to do absolutely nothing because nearly every other person in a position of power obstructs him. Or maybe he gets impeached before he can do any real damage. If nothing else, it will probably take a while for things to get worse before they get really dangerous for me, an upper middle-class white guy in Minnesota.

If things really start to go downhill, I will absolutely stay and fight for as long as I reasonably can. I have a lot of privilege, I want everyone to have the same privileges that I do, and I try to use that privilege to help when I can and would definitely do so as part of an underground railroad or whatever. But if it starts to get really dangerous, I will pack up all my privilege GTFO with my life while I can. Dead men fight for nothing.

We're not talking about "the current state of politics is so disgusting I'm moving" kind of leaving, we're talking about fleeing our homes because it has become too dangerous. I think it would take several years, potentially even a 2nd term before it got so bad I felt the need to pack up and go but I'm a wealthy-ish white dude, I get that things can be a lot more dangerous a lot faster in other parts of the country and for different demographics so I wouldn't blame anyone for jumping ship if by some chance he wins.

But I really think it's going to be a landslide for HRC and we can all have a good, "holy shit that was scary" laugh about it in November.
posted by VTX at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

We might have come to the point where people feel fleeing is their best option.

That just sounds even more hyperbolic and dumb, TBH.
posted by Artw at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I doubt that Jacques Chirac felt indebted to the myriad socialist/green groups that endorsed him in 2002 because they sought to avoid Le Pen.

Remember that a) this was a runoff and were the only available candidates b) Le Pen was not the nominee of any socialist or green party c) there was zero expectation that Chirac would pay the Left back for supporting him.

I doubt that Republicans who supported Democrat Edwin Edwards over David Duke in Louisiana's 1991 gubernatorial election had much say in Edwards' policy-making.

This one is closer to the situation we have right now. And even here, this was a runoff. There were two actual choices. No matter what happened, the Republicans would lose. But with Duke in office, he'd likely take the GOP into extinction in Louisiana, where Edwards would allow them to live another day (and profit off Edwards' well-known corruption problems). That said, the governor of Louisiana doesn't oversee the most powerful military in the world or a lynchpin of the global economic system. The stakes are much, much higher for the Never Trump GOP. A Trump win could exterminate the GOP... and the American experiment... and the world economy... and human life on Earth.

Le Pen would have made France a pariah. Duke would have make Louisiana into a pariah. Trump could make America into a rogue state.

If Hillary is courting the GOP, it's because she's trying to extract the Meg Whitman sorts into a new center-left. And that's not a bad thing. As many of us have said, moving the Overton Window leftward means the far right becomes irrelevant and the true left starts having a part to play. More Elizabeth Warren, less Jeff Sessions.
posted by dw at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Clinton has an over 50% unfavorable rating

What does that really mean, beyond a media talking point about how everyone "hates her"? She has basically unanimous support from politicians in her party. She's winning a majority of polls. She had a 67% favorable rating as Secretary of State.

Why should anyone be packing their bags over this unfavorable statistic?

As for the assassination comments? Well, I'm unshocked but don't see why that hurts Clinton in the election.
posted by zutalors! at 7:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

They got to the part about Netanyahu inciting protesters after the Oslo accords while they waved around signs like, "RABIN = HITLER" while I was chopping onions and I thought, "That sounds eerily familiar."

It has just entered my admittedly naive mind that Clinton being incapacitated would be a viable way to the presidency for a mind like Trump's, and I swear I felt that unpleasant tickling sensation in my stomach that you get when there's a sudden dip in the road.
posted by Mooski at 7:57 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Have we no faith in our first principles? I am trying not to lose my mind just because everyone around me is losing theirs. We are still America, after all, with all of our bumptious optimism. Trump is a catastrophe, but I know we can survive even him, should President Trump come to pass. We can't seriously be talking about bugging out over this clown, can we?

Also, Clinton is going to just slaughter him.
posted by thebrokedown at 7:59 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

There were two actual choices.

There are two actual choices.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:59 AM on August 10, 2016

If that's the case then I'd say Trump didn't read the fine print of the contract because right now he's getting screwed.

Well, duh. Signing a contract with Satan without getting screwed only happens in movies. It probably says something about having the same power to capture attention and win people over that he had in the primaries.
posted by straight at 8:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

So very relevant to this thread, Fred Clark ("Slacktivist") writes about the morality and interventionism and non-interventionism, Elie Wiesel, and Evan McMullin.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump is a catastrophe, but I know we can survive even him, should President Trump come to pass.

There's a lot of people, both American citizens and those of other nations, that don't come under that definition of "we."
posted by zombieflanders at 8:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

indubitable: I was bored the other day and cued up Frontline's Netanyahu episode while I was preparing dinner. They got to the part about Netanyahu inciting protesters after the Oslo accords while they waved around signs like, "RABIN = HITLER" while I was chopping onions and I thought, "That sounds eerily familiar."

He's never stopped, either. He's been stoking similar fires in Israelis for decades.
posted by zarq at 8:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump is a catastrophe, but I know we can survive even him, should President Trump come to pass.

I'm an American on disability/Medicare, and no, I am not at all confident that I will survive through a Trump presidency. And there are thousands of others like me.
posted by mochapickle at 8:03 AM on August 10, 2016 [31 favorites]

she's not suddenly going to become a pacifist without real work being done by the left to pull her that direction.

I'm betting that if you think any amount of work by "the left" will make Clinton a pacifist then you are in for a big disappointment.

"Trump: A True Story" is David Fahrenthold's and Robert O’Harrow Jr.'s piece on Trump's 2007 depositions under oath. This passage is the best:

In some cases, Trump acknowledged he was wrong — but not that he was at fault. Instead, he sought to turn the blame on others.

“This is somebody that wrote it, probably Meredith McIver,” Trump said at one point when confronted with another false statement. “That is a mistake.”

... Then the lawyer showed Trump another book he’d written with McIver, three years later.

“In fact, I was $9 billion in debt,” Trump read aloud. A similar error, repeated. It was McIver’s fault again.

“She probably forgot,” Trump said.

MERRRRREDITH!!!!
posted by octobersurprise at 8:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [36 favorites]

Have we no faith in our first principles?

No. From now until mid-November, we have no faith.
posted by ocschwar at 8:05 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

We might have come to the point where people feel fleeing is their best option.

That just sounds even more hyperbolic and dumb, TBH.

I don't feel the need to flee or leave, but I'm not going to make that call for other people in different circumstances than mine.
posted by LionIndex at 8:06 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Why should anyone be packing their bags over this unfavorable statistic?

Because it may depress Democratic turnout, and low Democratic turnout is the way that GWB won the first time and the way that the GOP won Congress in the last two midterm elections. It's not the worst possible statistic for Clinton, but it isn't a good one.
posted by Etrigan at 8:07 AM on August 10, 2016

As I've said before, the difference between the rise of neofascism/white nationalism/whatever-you-call-it in England and continental Europe on the one hand, and Trumpism on the other, is the black and brown people who make up a significant percentage of the voting population of this country.

We are the canary in the coal mine and we are also the bulwark against fascism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [31 favorites]

After 16 years of seeing them corrode and turn to ash, I still have faith in the principles.

I have no faith in at least half of the men and women elected to uphold them, and the half that vote for them.

One cannot move towards an ideal when a critical mass of people wish to move away from it.

Principles on their own are light and airish things, like constitutions and covenants and intentions of every sort, if they are not given flesh and muscles by human beings who have the will to stand for them, to fight for them and, if need be, to die for them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Quick reminder that Dan Quayle misspelled "potato" and we all decided he was unfit for office.

Quick reminder that Howard Dean's voice cracked awkwardly while whooping at a rally and we all decided he was unfit for office. These days candidates insinuate / advocate the political jailing ("lock her up") or assassination ("second amendment people") of their opponents and are still treated as viable.
posted by aught at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Quick reminder that Howard Dean's voice cracked awkwardly while whooping at a rally and we all decided he was unfit for office.

Let's be honest about that: The media decided that for us.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:16 AM on August 10, 2016 [35 favorites]

snuffleupagus: "I'll take Sarcasm for $200, Alex."

"What is hard to interpret in the written word"
posted by boo_radley at 8:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

I feel like this is important enough that it needs to become part of mainstream discourse, but for that to happen we need a better name. "Stochastic" isn't the best branding in the world.

In the context of GamerGate, I called it "directed swarms of sociopathy," but that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue either. And boy howdy do I ever agree that we need a memorable name for this, as you say, so people can recognize it for what it is and call it out when they see it. However depressing it may be, this tactic is now part of the way our world works, and we should do whatever we can to help people understand and circumvent it.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:20 AM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'd call it the "troublesome priest" tactic.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:22 AM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

As I've said before, the difference between the rise of neofascism/white nationalism/whatever-you-call-it in England and continental Europe on the one hand, and Trumpism on the other, is the black and brown people who make up a significant percentage of the voting population of this country.

We are the canary in the coal mine and we are also the bulwark against fascism

Yes, the exact same people who in theory will have the most reason to run away will also actually be the people who turn out in large numbers and vote for Hillary Clinton.
posted by zutalors! at 8:25 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

In the context of GamerGate, I called it "directed swarms of sociopathy," but that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue either. And boy howdy do I ever agree that we need a memorable name for this

I like "the eye of Sauron", myself.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:25 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Weaponized cranks.
posted by phearlez at 8:27 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I just want to thank you all for the fact that I can now literally not see the sequence of characters "Evan McMullin" without thinking of Egg McMuffins.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:29 AM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Fleeing is not going to be an issue.

I'm old enough to remember many hot-headed lefty friends over the decades who vowed to leave the country if "the idiot B-movie actor," "the former CIA spook oilman warmonger," and "the idiot son of the former CIA spook oilman warmonger" got elected president. Know what? Not a one of them did. And if they had left, instead of sticking around to fight for their ideals, they'd have been cowards.
posted by aught at 8:29 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Quick reminder that Dan Quayle misspelled "potato" and we all decided he was unfit for office.

He didn't misspell potato. The people running the contest misspelled it on the fucking card.

Misspelling words on the reference card for a spelling contest is indistinguishable from gaslighting.

(This is separate from his lack of qualifications for public office.)

Also, can I just say how stupid is that we do spelling bees and not like brain bees or slam poetry or something?
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:29 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

we need a memorable name for this

Match-flicking?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:30 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I thought the established term was "Internet Hate Machine." It seems to fit.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:30 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I thought the established term was "Internet Hate Machine." It seems to fit.

Except that this is an IRL Hate Machine. He said it live in front of real people, and if anyone, science forbid, actually takes action based on it, it's going to happen IRL.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:31 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

What does that really mean, beyond a media talking point about how everyone "hates her"?

The HuffPost Favorable Rating is an average which tracks findings from 42 different polling outfits. It's a measure of whether people have a positive opinion of the candidate, which in Clinton's case is probably a question of whether they feel she is trustworthy and not a craven opportunist who will say anything to get elected.

Associated Press / Gfk and Gallup all give her similar numbers using similar metrics.

In fact, her numbers have remained remarkably consistent since the beginning of the year. Her favorables vary a little, but her unfavorable rating always outnumbers it. Which is unusual for a successful Presidential candidate. In recent years, (most of the time,) such polls can be one indicator (of many) of whether a candidate is likely to win an election, if it were held today. By contrast, candidate Obama's favorable rating around this time in 2008 were about double his unfavorable. In 2012, they were about even. In 2000, George W. Bush's favorable rating was also double his unfavorable.

In a normal election cycle this would be cause for serious concern. The most likely conclusion we can draw is that a large portion of the American electorate does not trust Clinton and as a result, would be unlikely to vote for her. But Trump isn't a typical candidate and is also widely disliked, so the end result is much harder to predict. People may very well vote for her to keep Trump out of office.

She has basically unanimous support from politicians in her party. She's winning a majority of polls. She had a 67% favorable rating as Secretary of State.

Are you talking about Congressional politicians? Americans hate Congress. The average Congressional representative's endorsement will have little to no effect on voter turnout. Virtually no one who votes will care if the DNC or her fellow Democrats support Clinton. That's what they're supposed to do. Of course, today's news that 1 in 5 Republicans want Trump to drop out adds an additional wrinkle, too.

Secretary of State is not an elected position, and people don't get appointed to the post through a popularity contest. However, the Presidency arguably is. And as for polls, they can change. We still have a couple of months to go. So yes, her popularity and the American people's impression of her matters a great deal. If competency were all that mattered, then people would have voted for John Kerry over George W. Bush.

But of course, that's not the point I made, was it? It was that her unfavorable rating is high and her opponent is inciting his supporters to assassinate her. I explicitly and deliberately linked the two. Because the former could conceivably raise the likelihood of the latter. And yeah, that scares the hell out of me. Because I don't know that Kaine on his own could beat Trump or Pence.

Why should anyone be packing their bags over this unfavorable statistic?

I don't think people should be packing their bags right this second. Nor did I say that.

I'm saying that she isn't President yet and I'm not ready to say it's guaranteed, either. And I'm sorry, but as someone whose people were quite literally the target of attempted genocide within the last hundred years and who has seen some disturbing antisemitic rhetoric expressed by Trump supporters, I don't think it's unreasonable to be aware of historical precedents.
posted by zarq at 8:32 AM on August 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

we need a memorable name for this

I like "the eye of Sauron", myself.

Hamilton notwithstanding, some of us don't give a rats for Lord of Rings*, either.


-------------------------------------------
* Nor Star Wars, nor Simpsons, nor Seinfeld . . .
posted by Herodios at 8:33 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

We might have come to the point where people feel fleeing is their best option.

There are 300M people in the US, we're not all going to flee to Switzerland. Maybe a few who are wealthy and/or connected enough to do so will but the vast majority of us are stuck here for better or worse. No only that, my family has been here for ~350 years and I'm not giving up that legacy just because some idiot real estate developer wants to play dictator.
posted by octothorpe at 8:39 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Secretary of State is not an elected position, and people don't get appointed to the post through a popularity contest.

I'm aware of this. My point was more that she has a favorable rating when she has a post than when she is running for one, which has been mentioned many times.

I'm not making this up. If we discuss a favorable rating in one context we might as well consider it in another one. The fact that she was a popular Senator and a popular Secretary of State is a valid pushback against "She's the most hated EVAR" rhetoric which is super popular right now.

Also, yes, it matters that members of her own party support her in droves, despite "the public hate politicians" or whatever. It means that she can be effective in office. That's why I mentioned it, and that's part of why people talked about those things in the primaries, because it helps people make choices to see that kind of support in aggregate, not that people are like, huge fans of Chuck Schumer and will vote however he does, because that's ridiculous.

I've said this before, but let's please assume 201 level of poltical understanding of each other.
posted by zutalors! at 8:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

The people most at risk from a Trump presidency are the very people who cannot run from a Trump presidency. If there is a real threat of American facism, it will be hastened if we all just pack it in. I refuse to throw up my hands and concede my country to this buffoon.
posted by thebrokedown at 8:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [24 favorites]

And I'm sorry, but as someone whose people were quite literally the target of attempted genocide within the last hundred years and who has seen some disturbing antisemitic rhetoric expressed by Trump supporters, I don't think it's unreasonable to be aware of historical precedents.

Let's not play this game. I have lots of family in places "affected by terrorism" or whatever Trumpence is currently saying the ban is for. There's bad all around.
posted by zutalors! at 8:42 AM on August 10, 2016

passive-aggressive violence

just-saying-ism (as in "just saying... she's a violent sociopath who wants to kill us all so... hopefully someone does something...")

hater-baiting
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:43 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

prospective terrorism
posted by mazola at 8:45 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Let's not play this game.

Oh, yeah, ok, being worried about the same thing that happened to my family within the last century happening to me, and seeing it creep steadily closer every day, is a silly game. Good to know! Thank for setting me straight!
posted by Itaxpica at 8:47 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Isn't it just "incitement"?
posted by argybarg at 8:47 AM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

we need a better name. "Stochastic" isn't the best branding in the world.

I think we should call it "painting a target", with repeated references to Representative Giffords and Jo Cox MP
posted by straight at 8:48 AM on August 10, 2016 [21 favorites]

Let's not play this game.

Oh, yeah, ok, being worried about the same thing that happened to my family within the last century happening to me, and seeing it creep steadily closer every day, is a silly game. Good to know! Thank for setting me straight!

No, I mean "who's allowed to fear Trump supporters" game. It's bad all around is what I said.
posted by zutalors! at 8:50 AM on August 10, 2016

Isn't it just "incitement"?

"incitement to violence", I would say.
posted by Artw at 8:50 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Godspeed to whoever has the the skills and the resources to leave the US should it ever be necessary. A Clinton win is by no means a certainty. But at this moment I can't help finding it a wry comment on the parties and their partisans when the supporters of the candidate currently leading are contemplating exit routes, while the supporters of the candidate trying to lose are contemplating victory.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:51 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maybe "implicit incitement"?
posted by NMcCoy at 8:51 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

> "And if they had left, instead of sticking around to fight for their ideals, they'd have been cowards."

Oh, screw that. There's nothing magic about the lines on the map I happened to be born inside, and nothing to keep me from fighting for my ideals somewhere else. Voting with your feet is an old, old idea that would ideally be a lot easier in a better world. No one would call me "cowardly" for refusing to stay in an apartment where the water pipes just burst and the black mold is creeping up the walls and there's an ominous crack in the foundation and the landlord yells at you for bringing it up instead of fixing it.
posted by kyrademon at 8:53 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Trump is now exploding all over Don Lemon and Joe Scarborough for their reactions to his assassination threat:

Morning Joe's weakness is its low ratings. I don't watch anymore but I heard he went wild against Rudy Giuliani and #2A - sad & irrelevant!

.@dbongino You were fantastic in defending both the Second Amendment and me last night on @CNN. Don Lemon is a lightweight - dumb as a rock
posted by gatorae at 8:55 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've said this before, but let's please assume 201 level of poltical understanding of each other.

Except:

I'm aware of this. My point was more that she has a favorable rating when she has a post than when she is running for one, which has been mentioned many times.

She has to get elected. I cannot say this more plainly: she has to get elected to hold the post.

Yes, this is politics 101. I bring it up because you seem to be ignoring it or dismissing it as irrelevant and I don't understand why. It's neither.

She has a high unfavorability rating. People don't trust her. Republicans have ramped up the fearmongering against her to the extent that their nominee is now saying that she wants to take people guns away from them, and to prevent that, a gun owner should rid him of that troublesome priest!

She was popular as a Senator. Great. She was popular as a Secretary of State. Great. No argument there.

But she's not thought of as trustworthy now, and a hell of a lot of Americans in this country own guns and some of them have been shooting their fellow citizens without having been told to by the Republican candidate for President.
posted by zarq at 8:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Don Lemon is a lightweight - dumb as a rock

Unsettling stuck clock moment.
posted by Artw at 8:57 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Several people in this thread who have mentioned leaving are, like myself, not actually from here originally or who otherwise have citizenship claims for another nation. I would not blame any other dual citizens for being like fuck this, I am out, even if they aren't a member of a group targeted by Trump.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:58 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the disheartening thing, kyrademon, is not that the landlord is an asshole, but that the other tenants are the ones yelling at you for bringing up the rot and the plumbing issues.
posted by thebrokedown at 8:59 AM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yes, this is politics 101. I bring it up because you seem to be ignoring it or dismissing it as irrelevant and I don't understand why. It's neither.


I think you are willfully misunderstanding me? I'm aware the Secretary of State is not an elected position. I don't think the unfavorable stat is as important for election of this President as you think it is. She is winning, and that is what we should focus on.

But at this moment I can't help finding it a wry comment on the parties and their partisans when the supporters of the candidate currently leading are contemplating exit routes, while the supporters of the candidate trying to lose are contemplating victory.

Yep.
posted by zutalors! at 9:01 AM on August 10, 2016

God the Trump campaign is like a circus caught fire and no one is doing anything about it
That explains the odor of burning popcorn and greasepaint.

...And elephant shit.
posted by aught at 9:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Mod note: Folks, let's really really drop it with the whose-family-has-better-awful-experience-bonafides thing, there is zero way for this to go in a good direction.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [21 favorites]

> The people most at risk from a Trump presidency are the very people who cannot run from a Trump presidency.

This has a truthiness to it, and is if not true it's at least valid for the genre of political speechmaking, and moreover it's statistically true, BUT on an individual-by-individual level, it is not always true, and people making decisions based on their own capacities for escape and need for escape are absolutely justified if they patch together means of escape and then escape.

One of my closest friends is a trans guy who grew up in circumstances, is currently dirt poor, but who has a knack for finding short-term academic postings outside the states. So that's what he's been doing, and that's what he intends to keep doing until such time as he's sure the United States is safe for him to live in and will remain safe for him to live in. Which, like, fair enough. My partner and I have had conversations about skipping town as well; since we're a few more lines down on the "and then they came for..." list than our friend who left, we don't need to worry about leaving immediately (though let me tell you, I have been looking real hard at jobs in New Zealand.)

I guess the point is, the calculus for leaving or staying is considered at the individual level, by individuals, and the community, which can never really have all the information needed to assess that decision, doesn't really have grounds for casting moral opprobrium at people based on their stay/leave decision. we can though laugh at people who use the stay/leave question as a joke, without any actual thought of leaving.

There are some people who need to run who can run and who want to run and who therefore run. And that is great. There are some people who need to run and who want to run and who can't run, and that's awful. There are some people who don't really need to run, but who run, and that is fine. Staying to do activism here might help a little, but no one person's iota of influence in the fight is so important that it'll be meaningfully missed.

And most people will stay, because leaving is hard, and let's hope things go well for us.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yeah, I feel like telling people who genuinely fear being put in camps that they're wrong to flee is just gross.
posted by corb at 9:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [38 favorites]

>>>>stochastic terrorism
>>> "Stochastic" isn't the best branding in the world.
>> "Dog whistle terrorism" isn't great either, but it gets the point across.
> plausibly deniable terrorism.

They're all great because they accurately have the T-word in them. Stochastic terrorism is usefully googleable and people who don't know stochastic, intrigued/inflamed by the use of terrorism, might look it up. The U.S. robot-assassinates not only foreign inciters who use this model, but their children

Domestic inciters, not so much. The first search result mentions the murder of 3 Pittsburgh PA police officers, but was written before the trial of the perpetrator. He was tried in 5 days, sentenced 3 days later and executed the same damned day. Glenn Beck served no time.

Doesn't matter if 🚽 was joking or if he meant political action not assassination. Some disenfranchised sovereign citizen is going to take him seriously. 🚽needs a bidding paddle with the word HAMBURGER on it.
posted by morganw at 9:03 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Unsettling stuck clock moment.

Nearly.

As a clock that runs backwards, Trump is capable of being correct four times day.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:03 AM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

OK - re: leaving the U.S. I know we can be more generous with each other.

In our best moments, we realize that every one of us is different and has different life situations. Some of us have low risk tolerance and high levels of generational or personal trauma. Some of us have high-risk tolerance and virtually no generational or personal trauma. Most of us are somewhere in between. Please be respectful of everyone's situations in this discussion.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think you are willfully misunderstanding me? I'm aware the Secretary of State is not an elected position. I don't think the unfavorable stat is as important for election of this President as you think it is. She is winning, and that is what we should focus on.

That's nice. Excuse me if I continue to bring up things I think are relevant to the conversation, including worrisome historical precedents, rather than sticking my head in the sand.
posted by zarq at 9:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I disagree that I'm "sticking my head in the sand." We're talking about this actual election, which Clinton is winning based on polling data. I don't see what's irrelevant about that.
posted by zutalors! at 9:10 AM on August 10, 2016

Scalzi: Trump, and His Jokes, and You:

Trump wasn’t making a private joke with friends in the comfort of his own ridiculously baroque home. He wasn’t writing writing satire (which is often not funny) or black humor in the pages of, say, the New Yorker. He wasn’t on the stage of a comedy club trying out five minutes of edgy new material in front of a half-drunk midnight crowd who are there to see someone else anyway. He wasn’t putting it in the comments of his liberal friend’s Facebook post about gun control. He wasn’t doing any of those things — although even if he were, he could still be held accountable for his words. Rather, he was, as the GOP candidate for president, at a rally of his supporters, in a race he is currently far behind in, joking about someone killing off Hillary Clinton, or whomever she appoints as a judge. He wasn’t there to make comedy. He was there, quite literally, as a political statement. That’s the context.

posted by palindromic at 9:12 AM on August 10, 2016 [89 favorites]

I think zarq's point is that favorability matters during an election cycle and high unfavorability could be troublesome afterwards.

I think zutalors! point is that Clinton's favorability will probably improve once she gets into office, which seems likely now.

Can we just assume that both of you understand politics and are arguing in good faith, and leave it at that?
posted by argybarg at 9:13 AM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Meanwhile, my favourite election site, electoral-vote.com has Clinton at 353 and Trump at 179, with 6 ties (270 to win).

The fun thing is that tie is IOWA. Just a few days ago, IA was Leans R.

Right after the DNC, OH and FL were tied. Now both are Leans-D.

Then GA went TIED; Then, on today's map it's bluer than OH or FL.

MS appears to be Leans-R. Drill down to see that that's trump-46/Clinton-43. Compare with recent final election results for MS: 2012: 56/44-R, 2008: 57/43-R, 2004: 60/40-R, 2000: 58/41-R , 1996: 49/44-R, 1992: 50/44-R. That's a pretty weak R lead for a deep southern state.

Unfortunately, MS hasn't had a poll E-V could use since March. Most of the solid blue or red states are currently simply showing the results from 2012. If there are no new polls in a state, it can appear to be steady when in fact there just isn't any new data. So keep your eye on UT, MS, IA, MO . . . .

E-V's map is fun thing to wake up to every morning, but you have to drill down to the data on each state. The Votemaster's methodology is to average various NON-partisan public polls over time.

Here is the algorithm for combining polls to make the map.

• The most recent poll in every state is always used.
• If no other polls were taken within a week of the most recent one, only the most recent poll counts.
• If one or more other polls were taken within a week of the most recent, all of them are averaged, weighted equally.

This algorithm smoothes out fluctations better and produces fewer wild swings and gives a better overall result.

You can also look at the map from the last two election cycle on the same date. Encouraging information.
 
posted by Herodios at 9:13 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

And if they had left, instead of sticking around to fight for their ideals, they'd have been cowards.

This is a false equivalence.

Those other people were just politician's and they could be expected to maintain a sense of civility. A lot of us are convinced that Trump's ban on Muslim immigrants could turn into putting all Muslim's in prison or that Trump will start WWIII and this time the US get's to play the part of the axis powers.

Maybe the people saying that they might leave are being silly, maybe not, we won't really know for a few years.

Frankly, you have the benefit of hindsight with the others you mentioned, it's easy to say now that they would have been cowards but had Regan turned into a despotic tyrant for example, they'd be calling you an idiot for not getting out when you could.

Or are you saying that the people who fled Germany in the mid-30's are cowards too?
posted by VTX at 9:13 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Stop it, you two. The unfavorables and the fact that HRC isn't over 50% in many polls worries me too. Trump is an enormous threat, but for some reason -- and I think it is the effectiveness of a relentless attack machine and sexism, combined -- almost nothing of what HRC says except her critiques of Trump are getting through. I'd like a mandate, not just defeat of the existential threat that is the orange fuehrer.

So, you are both right. You are also both on the same side. Don't snipe at each other.
posted by bearwife at 9:14 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

I am surprised (okay, not really) that nobody on the TrumpTrain bothered to say, "but there IS something we can do about those judges if Hillary has enough of the popular vote to get elected, and even something we can do later - vote to keep congress Republican! If we control the legislative houses, we control who can get appointed." This was an obvious spot to support downballot candidates, and both the campaign and the public flubbed it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:14 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thank you, morganw! "Stochastic" is good because it sounds like a disease, so I vote to keep it and teach it. Furthermore, I never knew where "HAMBURGER" came from, and I approve strongly of 🚽 and am pleased to see it taking hold.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:14 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

My point was more that she has a favorable rating when she has a post than when she is running for one, which has been mentioned many times. I'm not making this up. I

It's very well documented, and in best evidence in this plot from Arnovitz

So what do we see in this data? What I see is that the public view of Hillary Clinton does not seem to be correlated to “scandals” or issues of character or whether she murdered Vince Foster. No, the one thing that seems to most negatively and consistently affect public perception of Hillary is any attempt by her to seek power. Once she actually has that power her polls go up again. But whenever she asks for it her numbers drop like a manhole cover.
posted by Dashy at 9:15 AM on August 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

in short: gendered expectations.
posted by Dashy at 9:15 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Domestic inciters, not so much. The first search result mentions the murder of 3 Pittsburgh PA police officers, but was written before the trial of the perpetrator. He was tried in 5 days, sentenced 3 days later and executed the same damned day. Glenn Beck served no time.

Er, what?

(And yes, if anyone is wondering, this is the precise incident that has me all het up all over this thread.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:16 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, I feel like (my apologies to Corb--I love Corb, and appreciate all you have been through for us during this election) saying that we are *this close* to catastrophe and pogroms because less than half of the republic is supporting a reality-show cartoon for president IS a bit hyperbolic.

I'm sure that I could find threads on other sites circa 2008 where people were seriously talking about leaving for completely different reasons, and reasons I would laugh at, honestly. Never would I support anything Trump, but he is not the antichrist. His followers do not own this country. We all do. This is our strength and, apparently, our weakness.
posted by thebrokedown at 9:16 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

No, I mean "who's allowed to fear Trump supporters" game.

It's not a game and I most certainly did not say or imply that Jews are the only people "allowed" to fear Trump supporters or not. It annoys me no end that you are deliberately misinterpreting my words this way.

What I said was, "as someone whose people were quite literally the target of attempted genocide within the last hundred years and who has seen some disturbing antisemitic rhetoric expressed by Trump supporters, I don't think it's unreasonable to be aware of historical precedents."

I'm sorry if you would like to focus on something else. But you don't get to decide what other people here get to talk about.
posted by zarq at 9:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mother Jones: How Hillary Can Rein in Big Finance—and Win Over Bernie Supporters "And just maybe make the financial system safer in the process. " Both Clinton and Sanders have proposed a tax on Financial Transactions (stocks, bonds, etc...). They differ in the details. The suggestion is for Clinton to use Sanders' definition of an Financial Transaction Tax.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Rude Pundit: Oh, Murder. Is It Ever Not Funny, Donald Trump?

Let us all fondly remember when an old fuck once made a quick joke about murder. That'd be in 1984 when, while part of a sound check off air, President Ronald Reagan said, "My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes." To be as fair as possible to the architect of America's inevitable doom, no one was supposed to hear that beyond some aides and sound techs.

But it was recorded and leaked to the press, and, beyond the political waves it made here, the paranoid, imploding Soviet Union was pretty pissed off. It was used as anti-U.S. propaganda by Pravda because, frankly, joking or not, the President of the United States just fucking said he wanted to kill millions of Russians and he had the power to do so at his whim. There was even a report that the Soviet army was placed on alert for a brief period.

Ha-ha?

So if we buy one of the many excuses the Donald Trump campaign has given for the Republican presidential nominee saying that gun nuts could assassinate a President Hillary Clinton to stop her from appointing anti-gun judges, that it's a joke, well, shit, that doesn't really help matters.

posted by palindromic at 9:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Yeah, I feel like telling people who genuinely fear being put in camps that they're wrong to flee is just gross.

I thought it was clear who I was talking about in my comment, since I said it right up front, and that it wasn't the disenfranchised or endangered people, but middle or upper-middle class liberal folks spouting off -- who honestly were at no risk of really running off to Argentina or the Left Bank in Paris or wherever anyhow. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
posted by aught at 9:18 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

This middle class Jew is legit terrified by the rise of white nationalism, which already means that people I know are getting repeatedly threatened with openly violent antisemitic images and comments via social media and even directly to their homes, so if I occasionally think that maybe this country is a place I might consider leaving, I hope you will forgive me.
posted by maxsparber at 9:24 AM on August 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

And I also want to point out that Trump is in the midst of being soundly rejected, for the right reasons. The people who oppose him made their case eloquently and were heard.

This may all turn out to be a healthy process.
posted by argybarg at 9:25 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I thought it was clear who I was talking about in my comment, since I said it right up front, and that it wasn't the disenfranchised or endangered people, but middle or upper-middle class liberal folks spouting off -- who honestly were at no risk of really running off to Argentina or the Left Bank in Paris or wherever anyhow. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
These things are intersectional you know? Do you think there are no upper-middle class liberal Muslims?
posted by peacheater at 9:25 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

morganw wrote: sentenced 3 days later and executed the same damned day

That was back in 2009, right? Then please explain how Poplawski was back in court in September, 2011.
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:29 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I feel like the rise of white nationalism is a result of minorities having made gains in the public sphere, but I also think it will be effectively quashed by an organized and motivated Democratic electorate.
posted by zutalors! at 9:29 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Charles Pierce: Donald Trump Is the GOP's Disease in Its Terminal Stage:

It's a gloriously floundering death for a politics that has done so much damage to the rest of the country. And, even with all that, none of them get it—that nearly four decades of conservative politics, and the techniques those politics used to attain and maintain power, made someone like He, Trump inevitable. They ate the monkeybrains long ago, and this is what happens when the prion disease reaches its terminal stage. You don't even remember how you got so crazy in the first place.

For example:

* Donald Trump once said that he saw Muslims dancing to celebrate the 9/11 attacks.

* Ronald Reagan once said that he helped liberate Nazi concentration camps.

* Donald Trump once said that Mexican rapists were pouring over our borders, threatening our national security.

* Ronald Reagan once said that the Nicaraguan Army could be in Brownsville, Texas in two days, threatening our national security.

* Donald Trump once said the global climate crisis was a hoax made up by the Chinese.

* Ronald Reagan once said that trees caused more air pollution than automobiles.

Yeah, Trump is a real outlier.

posted by palindromic at 9:33 AM on August 10, 2016 [68 favorites]

I also think it will be effectively quashed by an organized and motivated Democratic electorate.

Well, that will keep them out of office, but will do very little to stop the sort of behavior white nationalists excel at, which is extralegal terrorism.
posted by maxsparber at 9:33 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

If I could easily leave, I'm not sure where I would go. Every "where" is problematic.
posted by thebrokedown at 9:34 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

That was back in 2009, right? Then please explain how Poplawski was back in court in September, 2011.

And in front of the PA Supremes last year. He spends his time looking for ladies to be his prison penpal.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:34 AM on August 10, 2016

One of the key features of a democracy - how it differs from various supposed meritocracies and other systems of government - is that we don't get to decide where other people's lines are drawn. "One person, one vote" is not special because that one person might be a hidden genius with a flair for political science, nor because anything desired by the majority is best for everyone. It's special because it places emphasis on our diversity - because it acknowledges that reasonable people with similar backgrounds can have different priorities, reach different conclusions for the same problems.

I think discussing whether it's reasonable to leave the country if a particular political event happens is tolerable in abstract, but once it gets down to specifics, it's very problematic to say "people of Category X should not react to Threat Y in this way."

We chose what threats we find truly dangerous. We each have to evaluate our risks and the best course of action to deal with them. That's the point of a democracy; we each get a voice because sometimes, we may need to say "no" to whatever the common wisdom of the day is. (See also: Fija.org.)

I never, ever want to tell someone they're being unethical for nope-ing out of a situation, whether that's being out as LGBT+, showing signs of a religion in public, giving support to a candidate, or sticking around to watch the fallout of politics. We have the right to decide what battles are worth fighting head-on and which we should evade and save our energies for other important aspects of our lives.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:35 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like the rise of white nationalism is a result of minorities having made gains in the public sphere, but I also think it will be effectively quashed by an organized and motivated Democratic electorate.

Counterpoint: the entirety of US history.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:35 AM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

Well, I feel like (my apologies to Corb--I love Corb, and appreciate all you have been through for us during this election) saying that we are *this close* to catastrophe and pogroms because less than half of the republic is supporting a reality-show cartoon for president IS a bit hyperbolic.

"Less than half of the republic" = a majority of voters, every time.
posted by Etrigan at 9:37 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clinton is an interventionist, but there's no evidence that she is "planning future wars" or trying to signal that she wants Republicans to run her foreign policy.

This. Also, people forget that the Clintons were basically always wrong by the right wing (hell, even the left, Clintons being imperialist dogs) when it comes to being an interventionist. Somalia was a fuckup, doing nothing in Rwanda was a fuckup, doing something in Kosovo was a fuckup.

But I think when it comes down to it, if I was Hillary I'd look back on Rwanda with great pain and regret determined to never let anything like it happen again. So I don't blame her wanting to be an interventionist. Because the one time we didn't intervene, the one time we weren't imperialists, the one time we weren't the world's police force, we had a fucking genocide as a result.
posted by Talez at 9:37 AM on August 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

...but middle or upper-middle class liberal folks spouting off

So what? My concern is that a Trump win will eventually mean that "not a Trump supporter" is a minority group that get's "othered" right along with the rest of them.

Look, it's not very likely to happen. It's likely that HRC will win in a landslide and that Trump just fades away.

But if I'm wrong, the consequences are deadly, so it's prudent to prepare for that outcome. Right now that just means that I think about how bad things need to be before I flee and counting having close family in Belgium that would probably take me and Mrs. VTX in if it became necessary. If Trump wins, I'll think a little harder about that, if tensions start ratcheting up with Russia or violence ramps up domestically or something, it might turn from hard thoughts to real preparations and research.

I want all of that to be a silly overreaction and I think it is. But I can't see the future so I don't know that it's silly and neither do you.
posted by VTX at 9:38 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

And here's a very timely reminder that "organized and motivated" means nothing when conservatives can just prevent you from voting in the first place.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:39 AM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

I feel like the rise of white nationalism is a result of minorities having made gains in the public sphere, but I also think it will be effectively quashed by an organized and motivated Democratic electorate.

Counterpoint: the entirety of US history.

Of course, but what I mean is that people are suddenly noticing something that others have known about for decades (ie 'rise of white nationalism'). White people are really, really mad that minorities and women are out there Having Opinions and so we're seeing this uprising or whatever from a minority of very angry voices.

I'd rather have this than the 'bad old days' when we all quietly knew our place.
posted by zutalors! at 9:39 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Look, folks, one of the two major-party candidates for president of the USA has spent months spouting horrifically racist, sexist, and other -ist dogma like a shit fountain and not only got nominated by his party but somehow hasn't been tarred and feathered and run out of the country on a rail. Because reasons. (A lot of which I blame the MSM spinelessness for, but never mind.) He has also prepped his rabid followers for losing = rigged election, Hillary = Satan, and guns = liberty.

So you will excuse the vulnerable and potentially vulnerable among us for thinking that maybe a Plan B would be a prudent thing to ponder. And even if full-blown doomsday doesn't happen, there are innumerable dangerous scenarios on that spectrum.

Fascistic rhetoric is hyperbolic right up to the point it isn't, and people start dying.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:53 AM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

WaPo: "The mogul, in a 2007 deposition, had to face up to a series of falsehoods and exaggerations. And he did. Sort of."

As part of a lawsuit against Timothy L. O'Brien, writer of the 2005 book “Trump Nation: The Art of Being The Donald.”, O'Brien's lawyers brought Trump in for a deposition.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:53 AM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Misspelling words on the reference card for a spelling contest is indistinguishable from gaslighting.

I had thought that Metafilter had diluted the concept of "gaslighting" as far as it could go, but, no.
posted by thelonius at 9:54 AM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Absolutely not; white nationalism is operating under similar forces as physical materials underground. Crushing the materials under direct pressure just makes them hotter. White nationalists won't give up virulent vocal racism just because most of the country decides to elect a Democrat.

There was the ascent of right-wing militias during Bill Clinton's presidency, which culminated in the domestic terrorist attack on Oklahoma.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I could easily leave, I'm not sure where I would go. Every "where" is problematic.

I hear Montreal genuinely has superb bagels.
posted by maxsparber at 9:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

There are two actual choices.

There are three actual choices:
1. Hillary
2. Trump
3. NOT (Hillary || Trump)

Choice 3 means you're conceding the choice to the plurality/majority of voters. But it's still a choice.
posted by dw at 9:57 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The people I know and love who have talked about whether a Trump presidency would put them in danger, and whether they would ultimately have to flee ... it's not like they don't understand how much would have to change for concentration camps to happen, or how hard fleeing would be. They understand that Trump is unlikely to win, and that if he does win he's unlikely to succeed in creating the worst-case version of what he's promised.

But they also know that a Trump-as-racist-strongman future isn't pure fantasy -- it's a real possibility that, however unlikely, is way more likely than it should be. So that future becomes something they have to carry around in their heads and be ready for. And I can't tell them they're wrong and I can't protect them, so it's something I have to carry around in my head too.

And like ... part of honoring the people I love is not just recognizing that their fears are rational, but recognizing the harm it's already done to let it get this far. Having to carry around this future in their heads goes along with so many other existing harms -- the normalizing of white supremacist ideas, emboldening of white supremacist political parties, instigating violence, teaching kids to bully, and all the rest. I have to respect and speak up for what it's like to live through this thing as it is, regardless of how likely I think we are to see any particular long term outcome.

And then, yeah, get back to the day-to-day that is full of hope and sensible plans and arguing about what kind of liberalism we want, and where we win.
posted by john hadron collider at 9:58 AM on August 10, 2016 [21 favorites]

I also think it will be effectively quashed by an organized and motivated Democratic electorate.

I agree that this was poorly phrased and ripe for easy picking apart. What I meant was that I think we have more to gain from electing Clinton, getting Supreme Court justices, and helping turn downticket races blue than by trying to turn up the fear notches based on the specter of white terrorism.

That's just my opinion, obviously quite a few more people in this thread are planning exit routes.
posted by zutalors! at 9:58 AM on August 10, 2016

Look, folks, one of the two major-party candidates for president of the USA has spent months spouting horrifically racist, sexist, and other -ist dogma like a shit fountain and not only got nominated by his party but somehow hasn't been tarred and feathered and run out of the country on a rail. Because reasons.

Because a substantial number of people genuinely don't tune into the election until about now. I know it's hard for us to believe, those of us who stay tuned into the process all the time.

The town where I went to high school had a Christmas Store, for people who like to buy ornaments in April. Many of us are like those people: We collect bits of political insight out of season. But most people don't want to hear Christmas music or go shopping until late November, and in fact shake their heads at Christmas in September.

The good news is that people are tuning in now and most of them are saying "Trump?! What, NO. Bad idea." Yeah, what took them so long? I don't care. They're seeing it, that's what matters.
posted by argybarg at 10:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

>Misspelling words on the reference card for a spelling contest is indistinguishable from gaslighting.

I had thought that Metafilter had diluted the concept of "gaslighting" as far as it could go, but, no.

what are you talking about, it's always meant that
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [111 favorites]

what are you talking about, it's always meant that

Sometime's there's a slight pause in my internal dialogue when I read something like that - I'm like "Wait, what?"

Then the (gas) light goes on and I snot myself at the computer again.

Gods below, I love this place.
posted by Mooski at 10:05 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

WaPo: "The mogul, in a 2007 deposition, had to face up to a series of falsehoods and exaggerations. And he did. Sort of."

Good lord, for any other candidate at any other time, just one excerpt from this would be done-deal implosion.

Surely this ....

alas.
posted by Dashy at 10:06 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

There are two actual choices.

There are three actual choices:

1. Hillary
2. Trump
3. NOT (Hillary || Trump)

Choice 3 means you're conceding the choice to the plurality/majority of voters. But it's still a choice

Then there is always a third choice - people who disliked both Le Pen and Chirac or Edwards and Duke could have abstained from voting to register their dislike of both available candidates. Third party voting at the presidential level in US elections is not readily distinguishable from abstention in terms of practical effects.
posted by palindromic at 10:07 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Trump-as-racist-strongman future isn't pure fantasy -- it's a real possibility that, however unlikely, is way more likely than it should be" is so true, and yet it is so true EVERYWHERE. I have decided to stay where we at least give lip-service to one-person, one-vote.
posted by thebrokedown at 10:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary Clinton Pitches Mormon Voters In Utah Newspaper Op-Ed

(She's trying to split the Evan McMullin vote.)
posted by octobersurprise at 10:09 AM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

The mogul, in a 2007 deposition, had to face up to a series of falsehoods and exaggerations. And he did. Sort of."


Speaking of which, if I remember correctly, Trump has been formally indicted, right? When will the brunt of all the lawsuits against him hit the news in force?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:09 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I had a visceral reaction to your comment, tivalasvegas. I can laugh about it, but there was a split second between incomprehension and smiling where I could feel the nausea and anger rising in my throat. Once you've had that shit done to you for real, you're never quite the same.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:10 AM on August 10, 2016

Argybargy: The town where I went to high school had a Christmas Store, for people who like to buy ornaments in April.

So how are things in Frankenmuth these days?
 
posted by Herodios at 10:12 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

We're about to have to build a wall to keep people from leaving
posted by thebrokedown at 10:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

OH MAN.

Is there a possible alternative world I can flee to where Mary Jo White from his 2007 depo, now chair of the SEC, is the moderator for one of the debates? Becalu8uoio... fleuhberwu... ...Ithounqa;9>wuy...

Sorry. My fingers were slipping off the keys, I was drooling so hard at the idea.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:19 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Are you going to get them to pay for it themselves?
posted by OmieWise at 10:19 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Third party voting at the presidential level in US elections is not readily distinguishable from abstention in terms of practical effects.

Right. That was the point I was making. Anything that's not Trump or Hillary is conceding the choice to Hillary or Trump voters, and that includes leaving it blank or staying home.
posted by dw at 10:20 AM on August 10, 2016

Before you think of coming up to Canada you should really check out just how bad Netflix is up here.
posted by My Dad at 10:20 AM on August 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

zutalors!: What I meant was that I think we have more to gain from electing Clinton, getting Supreme Court justices, and helping turn downticket races blue than by trying to turn up the fear notches based on the specter of white terrorism.

That's just my opinion, obviously quite a few more people in this thread are planning exit routes.

To be clear, the concern is about right wing terrorism. Not only White terrorism. Some hate groups are motivated by right wing conspiracies or religion or fear of government. For them, racism or sexism or antisemitism may or may not be a motivating factor.

And yes, some of us have had had direct experiences and interactions with hate groups and that informs our opinions. Experiences that may or may not include white nationalists.

Voicing our concerns about them isn't an abstract exercise or game. There have been dozens of successful terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11, including the massacre in Orlando this year. Concern that a candidate for Commander in Chief is telling people that their government is broken, elections are rigged against them, their politicians and media can't be trusted and taking up arms is the only thing that will protect their rights... well, that isn't an abstraction or a game, either. Nor is it a "specter."
posted by zarq at 10:20 AM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

It seems to have died down a little, but for those of you talking about fleeing the country because of Drumpf: Please don't. The rest of us need you.


For me, it's basically Appointment in Samarra: if (god forbid) Trump wins, pretty much nowhere in the world will be safe anyway -- certainly nowhere I could make some semblance of a life. I may as well stay in the place I have the most friends and family for various types of support.
posted by holborne at 10:21 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I had a visceral reaction to your comment, tivalasvegas. I can laugh about it, but there was a split second between incomprehension and smiling where I could feel the nausea and anger rising in my throat. Once you've had that shit done to you for real, you're never quite the same.

I sincerely apologize. It was not my intent to cause you or anyone else any pain.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:21 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

There are two actual choices.

There are three actual choices:
1. Hillary
2. Trump
3. NOT (Hillary || Trump)

Choice 3 means you're conceding the choice to the plurality/majority of voters. But it's still a choice

Then there is always a third choice . . . Third party voting at the presidential level in US elections is not readily distinguishable from abstention in terms of practical effects.

We can put away the electron microscopes and the laser scalpels. The aggregate of all choices boil down to only two possible outcomes:

Hillary Clinton becomes POTUS
Donald Trump becomes POTUS

Your choices however you define or justify them will contribute to one or the other of these two possible outcomes.

Outcomes, people. Outcomes. It's what's for dinner.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:22 AM on August 10, 2016 [28 favorites]

Apparently, somebody slapped some sense into Lieberman, because he's announced his endorsement for Clinton.
posted by schmod at 10:23 AM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

When will the brunt of all the lawsuits against him hit the news in force?

The trial involving Trump U is set for Nov. 28th.
posted by Dashy at 10:24 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I want a better simulation.
posted by SPUTNIK at 10:24 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

WaPo:

“This is somebody that wrote it, probably Meredith McIver,” Trump said at one point when confronted with another false statement. “That is a mistake.”

MEREDITH!
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:25 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

And like ... part of honoring the people I love is not just recognizing that their fears are rational, but recognizing the harm it's already done to let it get this far. Having to carry around this future in their heads goes along with so many other existing harms -- the normalizing of white supremacist ideas, emboldening of white supremacist political parties, instigating violence, teaching kids to bully, and all the rest.

Yeah, I want to say that as someone who has had to put far more serious thought into the prospect of literally fleeing the country than I had ever wanted to, this is what I'm furious about. I'm furious that I am carrying this fear around with me, I'm furious that Donald Fucking Trump has stirred up enough ugly shit that my daily level of anxiety about the state of society has ratcheted up significantly. I'm furious about how much I have to worry about my family members who are more obviously brown. I'm furious about how goddamn high the stakes of this election are for so many of us. I'm furious that I took an oath of citizenship, and that that oath still doesn't make me American enough in the eyes of a distressingly large number of my fellow citizens, some of whom are in our government.

Listen, I'm looking at all the electoral vote predictions along with the rest of you, and I'm fairly sure that Hillary's got this. But I'm still worried, and I'm still scared of the unfortunate intersection of festering white supremacy and toxic masculinity and commonplace mass shootings. The time to dump Trump and avoid all this horror was way the hell back in December or January if not earlier, and since then the momentum of what he started became too much to stop. Now all people in my position can do is put our heads down and work like hell to get Hillary elected, while quietly checking to see if we have an exit route if things get bad enough.
posted by yasaman at 10:26 AM on August 10, 2016 [27 favorites]

Flashback: Watch 'The Simpsons' Predict President Trump in 2000:

If predicting Trump's rise in 2015 was tough, imagine doing it in 2000. Sixteen years ago — almost to the day — The Simpsons did just that. In an episode called "Bart to the Future," Bart gets a glimpse at his adult self: He's a Duff-swilling slob like his father, but his sister Lisa has grown up to be president of the United States ("America's first straight female president," to be exact). As President Simpson tells her aides in one scene (at the 2:20 mark, above): "As you know, we've inherited quite a budget crunch from President Trump." In fact, the country is "broke," she learns, after Trump's presidency.

Simpsons writer Dan Greaney recently told The Hollywood Reporter that the line was "a warning to America."

"What we needed was for Lisa to have problems that were beyond her fixing, that everything went as bad as it possibly could, and that's why we had Trump be president before her," he said.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:28 AM on August 10, 2016 [31 favorites]

I mean basically the philosophy I'm espousing is "don't boo, vote" so um. Do that.
posted by zutalors! at 10:30 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

As a queer, Jewish female liberal intellectual in Los Angeles married to a queer Jewish guy with HIV, I'm personally not planning an escape. Mostly, because we have nowhere sensible to go.

In planning options, consider this: if there's going to be a resistance (and there will be), Los Angeles, with its Jewish-Mexican mayor, geography and demographics (Hispanic or Latino (of any race): 47.5%, Non-Hispanic Whites: 29.4%, Asian: 10.7%, Black or African American: 9.8% - 500,000 Muslims, 154,000 LGBT and 662,000 Jews) is likely to be a significant point of resistance. Frankly, if it happens, I'm just itching to join. Corb - you're more than welcome to come on down! I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.

The only (extremely distant) family I have alive in another country is Hungary and the only close friends who would take me in are in France. Neither of which are particularly friendly to Jews (or outsiders) right now. I suppose I could make aliyah, but I've lived in Israel and I'm not really interested in living under Bibi's reign. Husband and I might think very differently about this in November, but I'm not seeing any other good options right now.
posted by Sophie1 at 10:31 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

The epithets for Joe and Mika in the first line of the Charles Pierce article linked just upthread: "Credit where it's due: Squint And The Meat Puppet did a bang-up job Wednesday morning of waving torches at the monster their show helped to create. I thought Mika was going to stroke out..."

made me so happy that I googled to see if he's used them before and found this wonderful glossary of Charles Pierce Names For Things.

Then I scurried back here to share it with y'all.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:32 AM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

Well, as far as running away goes...

A rural area inside the borders of the USA but away from any military bases is probably safer from nuclear fallout~.

Checking the fallout pattern maps, the only place that looks safe is the northwest corner of California and most of Washington. Canada has projected summer temperatures below freezing.

As for Europe, I couldn't find a good fallout map. The attitude seems to be "What would be the point?" Parts of mid to Eastern Russia might be OK, but subject to nuclear winter. Maybe. East Asia looks bad Still looking for data on Africa and South America. New Zealand and French Polynesia seem to be favorites.

Seriously, I get what people are saying here - they're scared, and wanting to run is a natural impulse. But I'm saying they aren't scared enough, and running is a lot more difficult than it seems.
posted by happyroach at 10:33 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

But I'm saying they aren't scared enough, and running is a lot more difficult than it seems.

Aragorn?
posted by maxsparber at 10:34 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wisconsin is looking bad for Trump, and good for Feingold in the latest Marquette University Law Poll.
posted by drezdn at 10:35 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

WaPo:

“This is somebody that wrote it, probably Meredith McIver,” Trump said at one point when confronted with another false statement. “That is a mistake.”

MEREDITH!

Oh. MYGOD.

Our feverish imaginary worlds are being called into being by the very act of mentally constructing them.

WE LIVE IN THE WORLD OF HAROLD AND THE PURPLE CRAYON
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:36 AM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

No apology necessary, tivalasvegas, at least not to me. It didn't really cause me pain; I actually found it amusing how strong my reaction was, though I realize that probably didn't communicate in my earlier comment. And it was only a split second of outrage, followed by amusement and a sort of "fool me twice, shame on you" self-satisfaction. I even employ that sort of humor myself sometimes, though I try to be careful not to carry it very far (you didn't carry it very far). I just thought my reaction was interesting and felt like sharing.

OK, derail over.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:37 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

In planning options, consider this: if there's going to be a resistance (and there will be), Los Angeles, with its Jewish-Mexican mayor, geography and demographics (Hispanic or Latino (of any race): 47.5%, Non-Hispanic Whites: 29.4%, Asian: 10.7%, Black or African American: 9.8% - 500,000 Muslims, 154,000 LGBT and 662,000 Jews) is likely to be a significant point of resistance.

True that. I actually derive a not insignificant amount of comfort from the fact that I'm fairly sure Governor Jerry Brown would straight up refuse to comply with any Trumpian orders against our own citizens, and that Southern California at the least would flat out revolt rather than give in to some horrifying mass deportation plan.
posted by yasaman at 10:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Neither of which are particularly friendly to Jews (or outsiders) right now.

The other day on Twitter I asked if non-Jews kept a mental list of countries that have recently had ethnic-nationalist movements with serious forward momentum. The answer was 'no'.
posted by griphus at 10:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

The time to dump Trump and avoid all this horror was way the hell back in December or January if not earlier, and since then the momentum of what he started became too much to stop.

It was the Republican Party's job to dump Trump and as an organization, they failed.

Now all people in my position can do is put our heads down and work like hell to get Hillary elected

This is no small thing. The fact that you're "quietly checking the exits" should be proof enough.

Don't forget the importance of all the down-ballot elections. Those are choices too, and the outcomes will determine who is available for national office in future, to say nothing of control of redistricting.

If you're frightened enough to leave the country, maybe you should stand for office yourself, for local dog-catcher, city council, school board. As a Dem. Or a Green, or whatever you like. Or pick someone locally you can back and back them. That's what the GOPpers have been doing since the late 1970s, and that plus disorganized Dems is how they got control of so many state houses and state assemblies.

Once the desired outcome (whether you are enthusiastic or holding your nose) of this presidential election is achieved -- one of the next jobs is to hold the Republican Party up to scrutiny as to just how it was that the vaunted 'party of Lincoln' came to this.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:43 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

True that. I actually derive a not insignificant amount of comfort from the fact that I'm fairly sure Governor Jerry Brown would straight up refuse to comply with any Trumpian orders against our own citizens, and that Southern California at the least would flat out revolt rather than give in to some horrifying mass deportation plan.

A STATE THAT'S UNTOUCHABLE LIKE ELLIOT NESS

you're all welcome here, but you're gonna have to learn how to refer to freeways properly, and commit our state motto to memory ("we're the world's sixth largest economy, you know")
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:46 AM on August 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

True that. I actually derive a not insignificant amount of comfort from the fact that I'm fairly sure Governor Jerry Brown would straight up refuse to comply with any Trumpian orders against our own citizens, and that Southern California at the least would flat out revolt rather than give in to some horrifying mass deportation plan.

Well, the nugget of truth behind the bullshit "posse commitatus " thing is that local elections for the heads of armed forces means those armed forces can legally refuse to take up arms if the central government orders them to do something noxious..
posted by ocschwar at 10:47 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

this wonderful glossary of Charles Pierce Names For Things

Largely delightful, but it was Molly Ivins, not Pierce, who came up with Governor Goodhair.
posted by psoas at 10:53 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

A STATE THAT'S UNTOUCHABLE LIKE ELLIOT NESS

And that in LA they wear Chucks not Ballys. They also put "the" in front of every freeway number.
posted by Talez at 10:53 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> you're all welcome here, but you're gonna have to learn how to refer to freeways properly

Assuming that by "properly" you mean "the way people in northern calfornia do it," I support you in theory. However, your tactics are maybe not the best. Instead, I think that maintaining the integrity of the state as a whole will require a diligent official silence about how to refer to freeways, lest the uneasy peace between north and south breaks down.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:54 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

look somewhere in the central valley the "thes" evaporate and you need to develop the ability to sense their absence
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:55 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

The freeways are mighty and fickle gods and you will pay them their due respect (with a definite article)!
posted by LionIndex at 10:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Here in MA they're all highways. They call them route something or other. I miss NorCal.
posted by Talez at 10:57 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Quick reminder that Dan Quayle misspelled "potato" and we all decided he was unfit for office.

He didn't misspell potato. The people running the contest misspelled it on the fucking card.

Come on. Quayle (somewhat feebly) claimed this is what happened, years later in a memoir -- but it's worth noting he didn't say so at the time. He unhesitatingly "corrected" the student who had spelled the word correctly, and if Quayle's cheat sheet had the word spelled incorrectly, it did not visibly give him pause. You can look up the video on YouTube if you want to see him condescend to the more intelligent child. (I think the smug wrongness to a child is what got him in public opinion, more than just being wrong.)
posted by aught at 10:58 AM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Look, whether you call it the Hollywood Freeway or the 101 or just 101, if you don't know that there is a colony of feral chickens right off the Vineland Ave off-ramp, you're not going to make it.
posted by maxsparber at 10:59 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

The "MEREDITH!" jokes leave me with yet another reason to feel awful about this primary. Seriously. I get that it's funny because it seems like she's made up, and Trump has invented other people before. And if she was in fact fictional it would be hilarious.

But with so much indicating she's real, I can't laugh at the jokes. Somewhere out there is a woman whose job duties include "take the blame for all of Trump's mistakes." Given his rampant and overt misogyny it's hard to imagine that relationship involves anything close to genuine respect.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:59 AM on August 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

I mean, where you gonna get your chickens when it all falls apart?
posted by maxsparber at 11:00 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Assuming that by "properly" you mean "the way people in northern calfornia do it," I support you in theory.

Good lord, no! It was northern California that birthed that most horrific of slang words, "hella."
posted by infinitywaltz at 11:00 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

if you don't know that there is a colony of feral chickens right off the Vineland Ave off-ramp, you're not going to make it.

See, this is the kind of thing that living in Orange County protects me from.
posted by infinitywaltz at 11:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

you're all welcome here, but you're gonna have to learn how to refer to freeways properly

Yeah this is almost as important as rooting for the correct sports team.


A STATE THAT'S UNTOUCHABLE LIKE ELLIOT NESS

The real Eliot Ness* is buried about two miles from where I type this now. Right near Harvey Pekar.
--------------------------------------------
* "That's one ell"
posted by Herodios at 11:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

The freeways are mighty and fickle gods and you will pay them their due respect (with a definite article)!

THEY CALL ME "I"-5!
posted by dw at 11:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

there's a colony of feral chickens living at the Walgreens down the street from where I live, it's best to be prepared to encounter them anywhere

Good lord, no! It was northern California that birthed that most horrific of slang words, "hella."

send this one to Bakersfield
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:01 AM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Trump promises press conference on Melania's immigration story

"She has got it so documented," Trump said. [real] "You wouldn't believe how documented, OK? She's got the best documentation, you won't believe how good." [fake]
posted by zakur at 11:02 AM on August 10, 2016

Why is he bringing it up again, the Clinton campaign certainly wasn't using it against him and it seemed like interest was waning?
posted by PenDevil at 11:03 AM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

hella

holla?

Challah.
posted by zarq at 11:04 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'll think about it while I'm standing online for franks and soda in my dungarees and sneakers.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:05 AM on August 10, 2016

I mean, where you gonna get your chickens when it all falls apart?

I plan on selling eggs at the inauguration if Trump is elected, selling eggs big league. Buy extra if you want chickens.
posted by peeedro at 11:06 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Flashback: Watch 'The Simpsons' Predict President Trump in 2000:

Well, they weren't making it up out of whole cloth -- are people forgetting Trump did run for president (not very seriously, but he did form an exploratory committee) in 2000 as the Reform Party (most famous for Ross Perot) candidate?
posted by aught at 11:07 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've already got chickens, Max. We're a damn egg laying factory out here in the Valley.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:07 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

"She has got it so documented," Trump said. [real]

somewhere Meredith is frantically trying to edit Melania into old photos of Ellis Island, a copy of Photoshop For Dummies splayed open in her lap
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

"Why is he bringing it up again"
That was rally two yesterday, his first public appearance after rally one yesterday, in the course of which he stochastically terrorized the nation. It may have been a "look over there!" tactic?
posted by Don Pepino at 11:09 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Good lord, no! It was northern California that birthed that most horrific of slang words, "hella."
posted by infinitywaltz at 11:00 AM on August 10 [1 favorite +] [!]

You're walking on thin ice here.... hella thin ice...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:10 AM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Why is he bringing it up again, the Clinton campaign certainly wasn't using it against him and it seemed like interest was waning?

Three dimensional chess cooking?

"I said to her: 'No, no, let it simmer for a little while. Let them go wild, let it simmer, and then let's have a little news conference.'"

posted by zakur at 11:11 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

A STATE THAT'S UNTOUCHABLE LIKE ELLIOT NESS

So I just now learned that this is one of those songs where I hear (or read) one line and my brain wants to repeat the entire song. Pasadena where you at
posted by Metroid Baby at 11:12 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Why is he bringing it up again, the Clinton campaign certainly wasn't using it against him and it seemed like interest was waning?

"I said to her: 'No no, let it simmer for a little while. Let them go wild, let it simmer, and then let's have a little news conference.'" [real] Excellent stratagem!
posted by kirkaracha at 11:13 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Good lord, no! It was northern California that birthed that most horrific of slang words, "hella."

Louis Pasteur statue. 4:20.
Guns. Drawn.

I have the honor to be, etc..., etc..., etc...
posted by zachlipton at 11:13 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Why is he bringing it up again, the Clinton campaign certainly wasn't using it against him and it seemed like interest was waning?

If the last couple months have proved anything, it's that once something someone says about him or someone close to him bruises his ego, he can never ever ever let it go. Honestly, this fatal personality flaw is what stands between America and disaster.
posted by aught at 11:13 AM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

The "MEREDITH!" jokes leave me with yet another reason to feel awful about this primary. Seriously. I get that it's funny because it seems like she's made up, and Trump has invented other people before. And if she was in fact fictional it would be hilarious.

But with so much indicating she's real, I can't laugh at the jokes. Somewhere out there is a woman whose job duties include "take the blame for all of Trump's mistakes." Given his rampant and overt misogyny it's hard to imagine that relationship involves anything close to genuine respect.

It has also given me pause at times.

I choose to understand 'MEREDITH' as the avatar of all those women who have been caught in complicated patterns of subservience to, complicity in and (I hope) subversion of the male power structure.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:16 AM on August 10, 2016 [27 favorites]

Fascistic rhetoric is hyperbolic right up to the point it isn't, and people start dying.

Exactly! This is where our educational system fails us as citizens.

Germany in the early twentieth century wasn't some land of mustache-twirling, dueling scar-bedecked villains singing songs about how much they hated everyone. The Jewish population in Germany was one of the most highly-integrated in the world. If you'd asked an educated person in 1920 where they thought a violent systematized attack on Jewish people was likely to happen in Europe, the answer most likely would have been France.

And yet, and yet, and yet.
posted by winna at 11:17 AM on August 10, 2016 [58 favorites]

New California state song when the revolution comes: CALIFORNIA LOVE. We can have someone add a verse or two to bring it up to date, like maybe Kendrick Lamar can add some stuff about how we're the world's sixth largest economy while also doing some peacemaking on the freeway nomenclature issue, idk.

In a marginal attempt to bring this back on topic, I seriously cannot believe how the persistent and continuous nature of Trump's missteps and gaffes has turned my perception of time via news cycles into some relativistic nightmare. It's like he and Hillary are existing on two totally different time streams. By the time I've caught up to whatever Trump's latest scandal is, it's hard to remember the DNC was just TWO WEEKS AGO.
posted by yasaman at 11:18 AM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

If anyone is seriously considering escape plans because a Trump presidency is a real fear for you, I hope that in the meantime you are knocking on doors and making phone calls daily to help Clinton get elected. While I am sympathetic to the fear (though it seems overblown to me), physical and emotional energy is best directed toward what you can control or influence through your own actions. At this time, it's GOTV for Clinton. (Try not to feed the large, inchoate fears.)

I also am unworried about the Clinton campaign's overtures to potential Republican supporters. I have confidence that Clinton isn't foolish enough to compromise any position for endorsements, and certainly understands that she is in the position of power here (she is the lifeboat next to a burning ship for Rs). What Clinton understands, and has always understood, better than anyone except perhaps Obama, is that she will have to work with most of these people once the election is over. Even if they are horrible people, the people in the offices are the people you have to work with, and they have to want to work with you at least a little, for things to get done (ref: 2008-present).

If she can help them out some now, giving Republicans who will not just vanish post-Trump some way to save face, to have at least wreckage and flotsam to cling to as they rebuild their party starting in December, she is building a foundation to actually enact policy goals in meaningful ways. She needs to position herself as sort of agnostic about the Republican party but condemning of Trump, so that post-election, Republican reps and senators can work with her to get things done--that will be their only way to rebuild their party. They are going to have to prove, going forward, that they can actually help to govern, that their party has a reason to continue to exist other than nominating nightmare candidates for President, and Clinton will be crucial to them in that. She, as far as I can tell, gets that, and is perfectly willing to be that for them, because it will advance her own goals considerably. And that's how politics works, when done by someone good at it. History will not remember how many odious reps or senators Clinton had to make nice to, how much awfulness she has to ignore even to sit in the same room with many of these people; it will remember what she is able to accomplish, what she can create or reform or correct or etc. (She dealt with some real assholes to get CHIP created in the 90s, but who cares? We have CHIP, and millions of kids continue to benefit because Clinton knows how to check her ego and be the bigger person, at least as far as one can tell from this remove.)

Also:
the difference between the rise of neofascism/white nationalism/whatever-you-call-it in England and continental Europe on the one hand, and Trumpism on the other, is the black and brown people who make up a significant percentage of the voting population of this country.

We are the canary in the coal mine and we are also the bulwark against fascism.

(emphasis mine) This, so much. As I have felt so many times in my life, thank goodness for the extraordinary diversity of the U.S. One day we may be able to teach everyone that a rising tide lifts all boats.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:18 AM on August 10, 2016 [39 favorites]

Flashback: Watch 'The Simpsons' Predict President Trump in 2000:

Well, they weren't making it up out of whole cloth -- are people forgetting Trump did run for president (not very seriously, but he did form an exploratory committee) in 2000 as the Reform Party (most famous for Ross Perot) candidate?
posted by aught at 2:07 PM on August 10 [+] [!]

I got a flashback for you.

Back in 1968, a dumb, shallow, not at all serious former Hollywood actor* made the first of several laughable attempts to win the Republican nomination for president.

Laugh-in and MAD Magazine et al had a field day with that ludicrous notion.



------------------------------------------------------------
* Yes, yes, and tragically, at the time governor of California.
posted by Herodios at 11:18 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Wow, Dan Quayle Potato[e] Trutherism is not a direction I expected this thread to go.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:21 AM on August 10, 2016 [39 favorites]

Trump and His Team Apparently Got Themselves Stuck in Colorado Elevator:

In one of the emails obtained by KMGH, Fire Marshal Brett Lacey explained to a friend that “the elevator fiasco” occurred because a member of Trump’s Secret Service detail or entourage made use of a bypass key to stall the elevator.

“it was funny,” Lacey wrote, according to KMGH.

“they (one of them) turned it off between floors and didn’t know how to get it back on.. our folks went and fished them out… elevator guys get there and say what the crap? Who turned this off? Turned it back on and voila," he continued.
...
The emails obtained by KMGH indicated that the fire department, UCCS and Trump campaign all had been in communication about the exact number of people allowed in the main hall and overflow room. The limits allowed for 1,500 people in the event center and 1,000 in the overflow room.

posted by kirkaracha at 11:21 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

"I said to her: 'No no, let it simmer for a little while. Let them go wild, let it simmer, and then let's have a little news conference.'" [real]

this is as good an example of the need for the [real] tag as I've ever seen
posted by zutalors! at 11:22 AM on August 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

Colorado media is doing what they do and following up on fire marshal-gate (the first one) by obtaining the fire marshal's emails about the incident:

All was well.. until they wanted more people… Secret Service were butts too… wanted me to let more people in because he (Trump) was threatening to leave the room.. and they hadn’t secured the other location. I communicated to them that my problem was the public.. theirs was their candidate… their detail is their problem.. not mine.

And the elevator incident:

You have likely heard more about the elevator fiasco. Turns out someone (Secret Service or his entourage) had an elevator bypass key.. they (one of them) turned it off between floors and didn’t know how to get it back on.. our folks went and fished them out… elevator guys get there and say what the crap? Who turned this off? Turned it back on and voila."

They've also got the emails and agreements from days before showing that everyone knew the capacity of the venue. The campaign's response:

A Trump spokesperson said they had no comment on this aspect either, saying the campaign is not interested in keeping this story alive.

Trump keeps doing this, going around the the country and making enemies of random cities and towns, and local media suddenly has a local story they keep digging on.
posted by zachlipton at 11:23 AM on August 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

Somewhere out there is a woman whose job duties include "take the blame for all of Trump's mistakes." Given his rampant and overt misogyny it's hard to imagine that relationship involves anything close to genuine respect.

I suspect the real Meredith was indeed employed by Trump at some point, doing some kind of documentation work where he could blame her for not putting the proper spin on details she was recording.

I suspect the recent "oh, it's her again" is entirely manufactured - that the real person has had nothing to do with Trump for years (hence the registered-Democrat thing), and they created a fictional presence for her on Twitter and FB when they needed a scapegoat.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:23 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

"...this fatal personality flaw is what stands between America and disaster."

And it may lead to congressional wins and thus the opposite of disaster. So he's either the best thing that could have happened or the worst thing that's ever happened... or he's both! My hope is that the worst thing has already happened (in that he didn't get renounced months ago--and somehow still hasn't been! Still!) and now the best thing that can happen will happen. And then inevitably but with luck many years hence some other but blessedly unpredictable worse thing will happen.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:24 AM on August 10, 2016

As a poor, disabled person, I feel like people more privileged than I saying they will flee the country in case of a Trump victory feels like the people best equipped to shield the weak saying "bye, good luck!"

Exactly how is someone making $7.25 an hour, barely affording housing and food supposed to flee? I mean, just this week the question of how my husband was going to get to work was a big issue that has put us into a negative money hole.

I honestly have no idea how we're supposed to get out of the country when we can't get to work. Assuming all the liberals with means follow through on their plans, that just leaves the most vulnerable exposed.

Can you at least stick around and try to fight for a while before you leave the rest of us to our fate?
posted by threeturtles at 11:25 AM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

Planning to leave, at this stage, plays into the hands of bullies like Trump. You leave, they win. Don't let the bullies win.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:25 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Politico.com: Trump's long dalliance with violent rhetoric.
posted by bearwife at 11:26 AM on August 10, 2016

Much of Trump's staff and kids couldn't vote for him in the primary because they were registered Democrats, so Meredith wouldn't be alone there.
posted by zachlipton at 11:26 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

my real-world Meredith theory is that in exchange for a nice lump sum payment and her signature on an NDA she serves as Trump's sin-eater-for-life
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:27 AM on August 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

WaPo: Trump: A True Story

It was a mid-December morning in 2007 — the start of an interrogation unlike anything else in the public record of Trump’s life.

Trump had brought it on himself. He had sued a reporter, accusing him of being reckless and dishonest in a book that raised questions about Trump’s net worth. The reporter’s attorneys turned the tables and brought Trump in for a deposition.

For two straight days, they asked Trump question after question that touched on the same theme: Trump’s honesty.

The lawyers confronted the mogul with his past statements — and with his company’s internal documents, which often showed those statements had been incorrect or invented. The lawyers were relentless. Trump, the bigger-than-life mogul, was vulnerable — cornered, out-prepared and under oath.

Thirty times, they caught him.

Trump had misstated sales at his condo buildings. Inflated the price of membership at one of his golf clubs. Overstated the depth of his past debts and the number of his employees.

That deposition — 170 transcribed pages — offers extraordinary insights into Trump’s relationship with the truth. Trump’s falsehoods were unstrategic — needless, highly specific, easy to disprove. When caught, Trump sometimes blamed others for the error or explained that the untrue thing really was true, in his mind, because he saw the situation more positively than others did.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:29 AM on August 10, 2016 [48 favorites]

Planning to leave, at this stage, plays into the hands of bullies like Trump. You leave, they win. Don't let the bullies win.

Does this apply to fascist uprisings in just America or other countries as well?
posted by griphus at 11:29 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump keeps doing this, going around the the country and making enemies of random cities and towns, and local media suddenly has a local story they keep digging on.

Trump and Pence as Tod and Buz. They're Route 66 -- in reverse.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:29 AM on August 10, 2016

Trump said his wife, Melania, came into the country legally.

"She has got it so documented," Trump said, adding she will hold a news conference over the next few weeks to address the issue. [real]

Nobody's questioning whether she came in legally, only whether she was authorized to work, and whether she lied about that to get citizenship - which could result in having that citizenship revoked.

So Trumpet's going to release bits of documents saying "she arrived entirely legally!" and declare the situation over, and the media will go back to saying, "um, nobody questioned her arrival," and Trump will say "we had a whole press conference about this - weren't you there? Are you people not paying attention? CORRUPT LIBERAL MEDIA is ruining this country!"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:32 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Re: Poplawski, I messed up. he's still on death row. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Don't know how I got the idea that years of appeals to a death sentence would be skipped.
posted by morganw at 11:32 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

So Hillary is in Des Moines today touring a (seemingly awesome) store. Then she's holding a rally. Her remarks should begin in 15 minutes or so. CBS Livestream (at 2:45 eastern)
posted by cashman at 11:33 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump keeps doing this, going around the the country and making enemies of random cities and towns, and local media suddenly has a local story they keep digging on.

I predicted this when he was complaining about the AC in Roanoke, and it seems to happen when he's most out of his comfort zone in terms of locations and venues. Of course, the national campaign circus moves on, but the local media and the maligned individuals aren't going anywhere, and "remember when Trump came to town?" will get a mention as voting begins.
posted by holgate at 11:34 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Her remarks should begin in 15 minutes or so.

I really hope that she steps up to the podium carrying a big plastic bowl and then grabs a handful of popcorn out of it and just shoves it in her mouth and walks offstage
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:36 AM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

Of course, the national campaign circus moves on, but the local media and the maligned individuals aren't going anywhere, and "remember when Trump came to town?"

I do remember when Trump came to town. I realize I've mentioned this before, but Trump came to my town for four days, and didn't spend a single night here. He brought a whole passel of violent weirdos with him; they stayed up all night raising hell, it seems.

Trump himself flew home in a private 757 to sleep in his own bed each night.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:39 AM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

So Trumpet's going to release bits of documents saying "she arrived entirely legally!" and declare the situation over

ahahaha I'm sure the immigration press conference will stay entirely on the rails, and its associated media cycle won't totally end with Paul Ryan testily insisting that Trump was just kidding about imprisoning Democrats in Guantanamo Bay with zika mosquitos or whatever

"remember when Trump came to town?"

for him, it was Tuesday
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:42 AM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

I remember when Trump came to town as well. He cancelled his rally and ran away with his tail between his legs because hundreds of protestors descended on UIC.

Fuck you Donald, don't come back.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:42 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

So Hillary is in Des Moines today touring a (seemingly awesome) store. Then she's holding a rally. Her remarks should begin in 15 minutes or so. CBS Livestream (at 2:45 eastern)

I like her hair today and she looks great in that color.
posted by phunniemee at 11:42 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

but is she carrying a bag of popcorn tho
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:43 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

If this article about "Walmart moms" is anything close to representative of undecideds ..... Imma start making plans to leave.

I can't decide if the outright sexist judgements of Clinton,

“I feel like personally he would be more fun and outgoing than Hillary in her suit sitting next to me,” said Donna, a pain clinic manager in Columbus.

Clinton is “emotionless” and “has an extremely hard shell around her,” said Julie, the Columbus office administrator.

“Cold” is how Mary, a retired cable television saleswoman in Columbus, described Clinton. “She’s a cold-hearted [expletive].”

or the remarks on Clinton's scandals

I think they are all liars, but I feel like she gets caught a lot,” said Julie, an office administrator in Columbus.

Linda, a business owner in Phoenix, said she is tired of watching Clinton sweep scandals under the rug: “There’s so much stuffed under there they can’t even lay the carpet down flat now.”

along with a very notable lack of remarks on Trump as a liar or scandals* bother me more. But all in all, this was revolting, and I shudder to think this is common, but ... it probably is. Gonna crawl back under my rock now.

*to be fair, it could be omission on the part of the writer, but I doubt it.
posted by Dashy at 11:44 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I don't think so but the camera isn't showing her hands.
Which, I have heard, are the size of normal adult hands.
posted by phunniemee at 11:44 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

This whole phenomenon of Trump needs explaining. I count four possibilities:

a) Fascism is on the rise, and Trump is just the emergent symbol thereof. After him, the flood.
b) Trump represents the last impotent death rattle of the old vanishing standards of masculine White power. One more push, and we can get on with positive change.
c) Trump is just a profoundly weird novelty candidate who sneaked through. Verdict is out on whether his pathologies will suck the nation in with him, or if people say "ugh, no thanks."

I see mostly c. I don't know that he represents much beyond his own sick self. Some people tune into his sickness sympathetically, but most say "ugh, no thanks." Unfortunately, even a sui generis phenomenon can distort our public behavior badly enough to have a lasting effect.
posted by argybarg at 11:45 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I understand that Obama has been a disappointment to many because he did not end the wars he promised to end, but I haven't seen that as a choice he made because he likes war, I've seen it as something that he really wanted but was unable to accomplish because the world is seriously fucked up. So I am asking sincerely, could someone lay out the short argument for how Obama failed as a result of his personal choices, rather than geopolitical considerations?

I want to go back to this from earlier, it's not just Obama's failure to end the ongoing wars he inherited in Iraq and Afghanistan. Under Obama's "most transparent administration" we've engaged in continuous shadow and proxy wars and extra judicial killing in a host of new countries, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Pakistan, and Nigeria at a minimum. He's been as bad or worse than Bush in arguing for and engaging in the never ending, global war on any one the President says is a terrorist, without input of oversight from the Court or Congress. Just for example this week, our Saudi "allies" resumed their indiscriminate bombing campaign in Yemen with our full blessing and critical aide in aerial refueling, without which there could be no bombing campaign. Obama's hawkishness goes far beyond overtly starting new wars, and is arguably more insidious, because it's conducted out of the spotlight, under cover of deniability. Clinton has shown zero inclination to change course, and her association with even more hawkish advisors is troubling if you've been following the continued growth of extraconstitutional use of force under Obama.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:45 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

d) The US is majority racist, xenophobic, misogynist ___________s.
posted by Dashy at 11:46 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I like her hair today and she looks great in that color.

ugh, come on, let's not do this.
posted by modernnomad at 11:46 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sorry. Feeling very dark. Going under rock now, bye.
posted by Dashy at 11:47 AM on August 10, 2016

Thanks, T.D. Strange. I guess my question still stands in re the geopolitical considerations at operation here. Do you think that all, or most, of those interventions are in places where no intervention at all would have worked out better?
posted by OmieWise at 11:47 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fascistic rhetoric is hyperbolic right up to the point it isn't, and people start dying.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:53 AM on August 10 [14 favorites −] [!]

Celsius1414 - mind if I use this elsewhere? I don't have specific plans for it right now, but I'm happy to give credit if I do.
posted by Sophie1 at 11:48 AM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

A question for anyone who's been to any of the official volunteering phonebanking type events for Hillary: do you have to show up at the exact time the event is listed as starting, or is it more of a rolling window type thing? I see a couple events that do say you have to be there promptly, but none of the others mention it.
posted by yasaman at 11:49 AM on August 10, 2016

really hope that she steps up to the podium carrying a big plastic bowl and then grabs a handful of popcorn out of it and just shoves it in her mouth and walks offstage
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:36 AM on August 10 [5 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

Yesterday I sent my friend that Liz Warren tweet being like, "the gloves are OFF" and my friend's response was "she ate the gloves"

And I just had this image of Elizabeth Warren ripping off her suit jacket to reveal full tats before just chomping down on the gloves while staring you right in the eye the whole time

And now I want both these things to happen, side by side
posted by schadenfrau at 11:49 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

“I feel like personally he would be more fun and outgoing than Hillary in her suit sitting next to me,” said Donna, a pain clinic manager in Columbus.

this is funny because somebody (here? Twitter? Reddit? it's all a blur) pointed out that Trump hasn't been photographed in public without a suit jacket on since like early 2015
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:49 AM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Dashy:

We all carry bits of racism, xenophobia and misogyny within us. But are the majority fully toxic? I don't think so.
posted by argybarg at 11:50 AM on August 10, 2016

I like her hair today and she looks great in that color.

ugh, come on, let's not do this.

I put it in small text because I'm supposed to feel bad that I can't like other things about her just because she's competent.
posted by phunniemee at 11:50 AM on August 10, 2016 [41 favorites]

Planning to leave, at this stage, plays into the hands of bullies like Trump. You leave, they win. Don't let the bullies win.

Planning to leave or looking for an escape route doesn't play into anyone's hands because no action is being taken. We can make plans to go to the moon on vacation. That doesn't make us astronauts.

Taking one's family and fleeing the country once said bully has taken control of the most powerful country on the planet and its military, and has graduated into a full-scale fascist... well yes, that would be an action. But it still would not be allowing Trump to "win." Life can't easily be reduced to a zero sum game with winners and losers. Such a simplistic, Trumpian worldview is unrealistic.
posted by zarq at 11:50 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

ugh, come on, let's not do this.

I like her policies and she looks good in that oval office.
posted by cashman at 11:51 AM on August 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

OMG it's the Exaliftin' song all the way from the 2010 World Cup!
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:53 AM on August 10, 2016

anything close to representative of undecideds

That they're basically disengaged and uninformed? Seems about right to me. They'll vote (or not vote) based on the weather or what they have for breakfast. The luxury of a relatively stable democracy is that you don't have to care about politics as long as you don't feel like politics has to care about you.

I find the pollsters' pursuit of undecided demographics frustrating because it empowers apathy. Honestly, if you haven't decided by now, you're not some special snowflake who deserves time, attention and a participation trophy.
posted by holgate at 11:54 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

We have public opinion surveys to overcome the kind of anecdata that Washington Post article is built on. Trump is very unpopular among women in general.
posted by argybarg at 11:55 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Do you think that all, or most, of those interventions are in places where no intervention at all would have worked out better?

That's like asking what's the best way to defeat ISIS? Other than Bush not creating them in the first place. There's a lot of people that get paid way better than me who don't know that, so, I can't say. If I could I imagine I'd be up for some sort of presidential appointment. But I'd prefer if this was all done subject to a declaration of war from Congress, or at the very least without the Obama DOJ fighting to apply John Yoo style secrecy to shield any meaningful Court review or public discussion.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:56 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

what gets me about self-identified undecided/independent types is that 90% of the time they're sure that the pox-on-both-their-houses position they've very thoughtfully reasoned themselves into means they're hella sharper and cleverer than any naïve dupe who, like, supports a party or candidate
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:57 AM on August 10, 2016 [40 favorites]

Honestly, if you haven't decided by now, you're not some special snowflake who deserves time, attention and a participation trophy.

A proctologist to deal with that fencepost, on the other hand...
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:58 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

then they go and vote for third party candidates so the people who they've already decided are dumb sheep can choose their elected officials for them
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:00 PM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

I'm having a hard time finding the chart right now, but I have a memory of reading something in a recent fivethirtyeight article where it showed Trump as being up something like 10-15 points against Clinton among various male educational demographics, but down something like 30 points among women in general.

That is a high mountain for him to try and climb. When you're losing that badly with half the population, it's hard to think of what you could do to save yourself. Can anybody find that chart? I'd love to see it again.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:01 PM on August 10, 2016

"remember when Trump came to town?"

When Trump Comes To Town*
He rode upon chopper, about a half a mile
To make a speech at the Q that was really vile
He poked his little fingers, his face turned red
Nobody could believe the crazy shit that he said

When Trump comes to town I'm gonna jump that train
When Trump comes to town don't wanna play his game
Stuck in a lift that won't come down
Call the fire marshals when Trump came to town

He talked about guns, he talked about walls
He talked about fingers, he talked about balls
Sounds like a barker, looks like a clown
Orange means runs, son, when Trump comes to town

When Trump comes to town I'm gonna jump that train
When Trump comes to town don't wanna play his game
If he runs the show, don't wanna be around
I'll just get outta Dodge, when Trump comes to town


----------------------
* apologies to the memory of the late BB King
posted by Herodios at 12:02 PM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

The luxury of a relatively stable democracy is that you don't have to care about politics as long as you don't feel like politics has to care about you.

Yeah this. I pretty much lose my mind when less-clever-than-they-think conservative intellectual types complain about how black people mindlessly (or corruptly) vote Democratic in a bloc.

IT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT VOTING FOR PEOPLE WHO HATE THEM YOU TOOLS.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [34 favorites]

Is Clinton running late in Des Moines?
posted by stolyarova at 12:04 PM on August 10, 2016

Here are some opinions no one will disagree with in any forum:

1) Voters are stupid and getting dumber.
2) Politicians all lie.
3) The political process is a joke.

and, in a partisan group:

4) People who vote for the other side vote in a mass like zombies because they've been brainwashed.

I don't agree with any of them.
posted by argybarg at 12:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

The live feed is reminding me that Clinton even has better "waiting for the candidate" music. It's like they sweat the details!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:08 PM on August 10, 2016

argybarg, in the places I comment at, those sorts of comments routinely get rebuked. And deservedly so.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:10 PM on August 10, 2016

CNN just interviewed the guy - Darrell Vickers - who gasped behind Trump while he was saying the 2nd amendment comments. He said a bunch of things, but mostly defended Trump while also saying it was a joke (about assassination) in poor taste and he would have told Trump "we don't say things like that". At the end of it all, Vickers said he would be voting for Trump.
posted by cashman at 12:11 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

If this article about "Walmart moms" is anything close to representative of undecideds

What's remarkable is that between the questions asked and the answers given, they might as well be talking about Kim and Taylor.

“He’s going to do something between now and November to really shoot himself in the foot,” predicted Connie, who is unemployed in Phoenix.

Astute. Will that be cannibalism or pig-fucking? I can hardly wait to see.

(Now I have the "Choosy Moms choose Jif" jingle in my head.)
posted by octobersurprise at 12:12 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I dunno if all politicians lie, but once you reach the level of say, House Representative or higher, I think it becomes a mandatory part of the job. If nothing else, you're going to start becoming party to state secrets and you'll be required to deny certain truths if asked. You'll also need to express support for certain bills, colleagues, or institutions that you personally despise, in the name of political expediency and getting things done. You couldn't do your job otherwise.

As for the political process being a joke, I would point to the fact that our congress couldn't get goddamn emergency funding for zikavirus prevention passed within eight months of being asked to do so by the President. Instead, they bickered about various evergreen partisan talking points until they had to go into recess for the summer.

I would also like to point out the manner in which the presidential election of 2000 was resolved. Regardless of who you supported in that election, that shit wasn't right. In no case should the Presidency be awarded to someone by judicial decree from a panel of judges some of whom were appointed by the candidate's dad.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:12 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Oh, so is the October Surprise going to be the revelation that Clinton had a DNC employee murdered for leaking sensitive material?

Seth Rich's family thinks this is some bullshit:

[S]ome are attempting to politicize this horrible tragedy, and in their attempts to do so, are actually causing more harm than good and impeding on the ability for law enforcement to properly do their job. For the sake of finding Seth's killer, and for the sake of giving the family the space they need at this terrible time, they are asking for the public to refrain from pushing unproven and harmful theories about Seth's murder,

Meanwhile, according to CNN (autoplaying video on Twitter), not only has the Secret Service talked with the Trump campaign about his comments yesterday, they've had "multiple conversations" since then. Apparently this is a BFD among former agents.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [38 favorites]

argybarg, in the places I comment at, those sorts of comments routinely get rebuked. And deservedly so.

Fair enough, I shouldn't be so absolute. But they are pretty widely acceptable. You can shop those views around at a lot of book clubs and water coolers and Facebook feeds and not get rebuked for them. "Politics, what a joke," etc.
posted by argybarg at 12:14 PM on August 10, 2016

But with so much indicating she's real, I can't laugh at the jokes. Somewhere out there is a woman whose job duties include "take the blame for all of Trump's mistakes."

The ultimate in job security. The one person Trump cannot fire.
posted by ocschwar at 12:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump Is Losing Because, At Heart, He’s The Class Clown
Poll: Republicans want the 'Trump Party,' not 'Ryan Party'
Donald Trump Gives the Game Away - "GOP leaders will tolerate Trump so long as he promises huge tax cuts, and GOP voters will tolerate him so long as he's a bigot."
Donald Trump’s worst-of-both-worlds campaign
The 2016 Race Isn’t About Issues. It’s About Character.
Will There Be Trumpism After Trump?
What Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton Says About WikiLeaks

more at OMNIVORE
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

As for the political process being a joke, I would point to the fact that our congress couldn't get goddamn emergency funding for zikavirus prevention passed within eight months of being asked to do so by the President. Instead, they bickered about various evergreen partisan talking points until they had to go into recess for the summer.

I'm sorry, but this is a really dishonest framing. The issue wasn't that Congress was playing partisan politics, but that Republicans put reproductive health poison pills into the bill.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:19 PM on August 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

not only has the Secret Service talked with the Trump campaign about his comments yesterday, they've had "multiple conversations" since then.

"Excuse me, Mr. Trump. I was just checking up to make sure that Agent Sanders talked to you about--"
"Oh, yeah, he loved it."
"Nnno, I think he was going to tell you that--"
"That he's doesn't even know why you're protecting me, because no one would ever want to hurt me. Yeah, I got it."
"Goddammit."
posted by Etrigan at 12:20 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

The ultimate in job security. The one person Trump cannot fire.

She has replaced Christie as the one who, narratively, would be the most appropriate person to ultimately destroy him
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:20 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

CNN just interviewed the guy - Darrell Vickers - who gasped behind Trump while he was saying the 2nd amendment comments. He said a bunch of things, but mostly defended Trump while also saying it was a joke (about assassination) in poor taste and he would have told Trump "we don't say things like that". At the end of it all, Vickers said he would be voting for Trump.

The point isn't really what this guy thinks, he's a guy who sat behind Trump at a rally after all, but the fact that he so visibly gasped and then looked to his wife as if to say "did he just say that?" It blows away any claim that of course Trump meant "the NRA will lobby to ensure gun rights are preserved," because nobody gasps at the horribly unsurprising prospect that the NRA might lobby for gun rights. People gasp at a Presidential candidate suggesting assassination. And he gasped right there behind Trump, well before any sort of evil corrupt media could get to him and tell him what to think.
posted by zachlipton at 12:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [39 favorites]

Here's the Monmouth poll results; there's a link at the site with the PDF with the breakdown. (Emphasis mine.)

The main factor behind the current GOP nominee's underperformance among white voters is his lack of support among white women with a college degree. Trump holds sizable leads among white men without a college degree (31 points; 56% to 25%), white men with a college degree (11 points; 45% to 34%), and white women without a college degree (17 points; 49% to 32%). These point spreads are similar to how Romney did with these groups in 2012 when he won white men without a college degree by 31 points (64% to 33%), white men with a college degree by 21 points (59% to 38%), and white women without a college degree by 20 points (59% to 39%). Among white women with a college degree, though, Trump is actually trailing Clinton by 30 points (27% to 57%). Romney narrowly won this group by 6 points in 2012 (52% to 46%).

I couldn't find a nice picture-chart showing these numbers :(
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Adorable back-and-forth with the Harkins.
posted by stolyarova at 12:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> The one person Trump cannot fire.

Probably not fired, no. But I bet she's imagined having to go to prison a time or two.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:22 PM on August 10, 2016

It's pretty perfect that Trump has scheduled a press conference to go into the detail of his wife's immigration paperwork but is still selling the lie about not being able to share his own tax returns due to an IRS audit. He is such a ready supplier of his own character sketch thumbnails.
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:22 PM on August 10, 2016

Congress also didn't have "to go into recess for the summer." They can come back anytime they want and get the Zika funding done. The clock they ran out is entirely of their own making.
posted by zachlipton at 12:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yesterday I sent my friend that Liz Warren tweet being like, "the gloves are OFF" and my friend's response was "she ate the gloves"

And I just had this image of Elizabeth Warren ripping off her suit jacket to reveal full tats before just chomping down on the gloves while staring you right in the eye the whole time

And now I want both these things to happen, side by side

This put... an image in my mind.

Liz Warren, as The Babadook, coming at Donald Trump ninja cat style.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

“I feel like personally he would be more fun and outgoing than Hillary in her suit sitting next to me,” said Donna, a pain clinic manager in Columbus.

this is funny because somebody (here? Twitter? Reddit? it's all a blur) pointed out that Trump hasn't been photographed in public without a suit jacket on since like early 2015
posted by prize bull octorok

Gawker: It Has Been 17 Months and Counting Since Donald Trump Last Took Off His Jacket, According to My Research.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Free college tuition for our kids!" is a bad talking point. It plays right into the Republican claim that the left all wants a free ride. A better point is, "state-funded college so that America's talented youth get the skills they need to support our great nation, regardless of economic background."

Same goal; different focus.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

An old gentleman with a Navy hat behind Trump at his current rally just took a phone call while Trump was talking. Dude had a flip phone. He pulled it out of his pocket, checked the caller id, then took the call. I hope they switch off this to Hillary talking, but that was hilarious.
posted by cashman at 12:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

NoxAeternum, I will grant that that is a more accurate summary of what happened but the fact that it could and did go down that way doesn't exactly lend credence to the argument that our political process is anything other than a joke. A sick, unfunny joke.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:28 PM on August 10, 2016

Hillary just took the stage in Iowa.
posted by cashman at 12:29 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just a friendly reminder that Clinton could use a friendly senate. Ann Kirkpatrick in Arizona, for example, has a chance to unseat McCain (presuming he makes it out of his primary).
posted by R343L at 12:29 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

(That means donate, phone bank, whatever. Don't boo, vote / donate / volunteer.)
posted by R343L at 12:29 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump is speaking in Southwest Virginia right now. He promises that he is going to bring the mining jobs back, the polls have tightened up, and Hillary "misspoke" about raising taxes on the middle class.

Daniel Dale: Donald Trump: "We have a lot of unity in the Republican Party, but nobody talks about it."

If you say so, big boy. I know you never lie.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:32 PM on August 10, 2016

Hillary talking about jobs and investing in infrastructure. "I have this old fashioned idea that the middle class is what makes America work".
posted by cashman at 12:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hilary: "In the first hundred days of my presidency, we will make the biggest investment in jobs, good paying jobs, since World War 2." [real]
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

I accept your correction as well zachpilton, but again that just makes the whole thing even worse than my original framing implied.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump: "We have a lot of unity in the Republican Party, but nobody talks about it."

Yes, they've really perfected the synchronized facepalm.
posted by Etrigan at 12:34 PM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

Hillary: "We're going to do water systems. We're going to do sewer systems. We're also going to do a modern electric grid...to make sure energy can be distributed where it can be used."
posted by cashman at 12:35 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

"- we're gonna do sewer systems -"
[from crowd]
RRYYYYYYEEEEEAAAAAGGHHHHH!!!

That made me feel patriotic in a way I can't explain
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:35 PM on August 10, 2016 [44 favorites]

Something just happened with the Secret Service on the Clinton live feed.
posted by stolyarova at 12:35 PM on August 10, 2016

I think we can assume the [real] tag for Hillary.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

She's fine and was unruffled. I'm not sure what happened.
posted by stolyarova at 12:36 PM on August 10, 2016

Lots of people looking stage left. I assume protestors.
posted by argybarg at 12:37 PM on August 10, 2016

I dunno if all politicians lie, but once you reach the level of say, House Representative or higher, I think it becomes a mandatory part of the job. If nothing else, you're going to start becoming party to state secrets and you'll be required to deny certain truths if asked. You'll also need to express support for certain bills, colleagues, or institutions that you personally despise, in the name of political expediency and getting things done. You couldn't do your job otherwise.

I don't think that's the kind of lies people are upset about. People think politicians are lying about what they believe in and what they're trying to accomplish. Their motivations and goals. They think that most politicians are "corrupt" ie, in it for personal profit or for the benefit of their cronies. They think politicians are just power hungry, out to rule the world and run it for their own convenience, and not for the benefit of "the little guy." They think politicians are "elite" and contemptuous of "regular people."

But actually I'm pretty sure most politicians (not you, Blagojevich!) are motivated by idealism, by wanting to make the world a better place for everyone, or at least for "us" (however they define "us"). They just disagree deeply on how to do that.

There are easier ways to make money (for these people) than dealing with tedious bureaucracy, spending hours on the phone sucking up to donors, and being verbally attacked in the media every day. It's a pretty crappy job, and I think most people who take it are doing their best. I think Parks and Rec. is a relatively accurate depiction of what public service is like and how little glory there is at the beginning of a public service career especially.

And I think "morality" is a set of instincts which are common to almost all humans. And I think most politicians, like most people, are basically decent, though they all make compromises and mistakes and try to rationalize those. Because again, human.

But just like in any population... There is a very small percentage of sociopaths, a larger percentage of assholes (I'm talking about you Blagojevich), and a very large number (~50%) of people who are well meaning but just fundamentally incorrect in their understanding of the world. The sociopaths and the assholes might be slightly over-represented in politics (though again, it's hard work and there are easier ways...) but they're still not the majority.

So I would also come down on the side of "In general politicians are not liars" in the sense that people mean when they complain about the lies of politicians.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I dunno if all politicians lie, but once you reach the level of say, House Representative or higher, I think it becomes a mandatory part of the job.

I also really wish people would be more honest (see what I did there?) about how much they themselves lie while doing their jobs. I mean, my job isn't running a city or state or country so my lies are pretty banal and uninteresting and no one is going to fact-check them, but one thing that I cannot be in my customer-facing role is 100% honest. So I wish people would actually think about degrees of the lies that politicians tell. There's a big big difference between "I think this project is doing a great job to revitalize xyz [I am actually pretty iffy on this]!" and "I did not accept kickbacks for granting that contract [I totally accepted kickbacks for granting that contract]."
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

Something just happened with the Secret Service on the Clinton live feed.

CNN showed an angle where 2 agents were on stage with her, she kept right on speaking, unfazed.

Me? I'd be scared out of my mind. This woman is so courageous.
posted by cashman at 12:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [48 favorites]

Something just happened with the Secret Service on the Clinton live feed.

Yeah they moved in a way that looked serious, but maybe they always look serious when they move?
posted by phunniemee at 12:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yes, they've really perfected the synchronized facepalm

I think you meant to say the face-hitting-desk relay race.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

gee I wonder if maybe Clinton's SS detail is on extra-high alert all of a sudden for some reason
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:38 PM on August 10, 2016 [101 favorites]

How Trump’s poll decline could lead to a self-perpetuating death spiral for his campaign:

This cycle starts off with bad polling news for Trump. This cements the perception that he’s very likely to lose, and as a result, more and more Republican elected officials, staffers, and donors become emboldened to come out against him.

Some of these actors, facing electorates with Trump-hostile populations either this year or eventually, will try to flee the sinking ship to save themselves. Others will try to curry favor with the likely next president, Hillary Clinton. And others will want to position themselves on the right side of history — or at least the right side of a coming intraparty showdown over who gets the blame for Trump’s defeat.

We are already seeing this take place.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:40 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Hillary is talking about it now - "Words matter, my friends".
posted by cashman at 12:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

Ooh nice - Hilary's calling out small businesses, talking about "employs 50 people here in Des Moines" as a success and worthy of support like student loan deferments. And an easy jump to Trump's history of defaulting on debts to small businesses.

* Raise minimum wage so it's no longer a starvation wage
* Make sure people with disabilities have jobs & opportunities
* Equal pay for women

10.4 million new jobs in USA with her plan; minus 3.5 million on Trump's.

Another pitch for "here's the actual plan, with numbers."

Damn, she's good at staying on point.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

Celsius1414 - mind if I use this elsewhere? I don't have specific plans for it right now, but I'm happy to give credit if I do.

Thanks for asking, and feel free.
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hillary: "As a young man in Florida said to me the other day - Friends don't let friends vote for Trump."
posted by cashman at 12:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yeah, I imagine they are on high alert. I was thinking about how Donnie's little "joke" probably made all of the Secret Service very uneasy and all of the Secret Service families nervous.

And Clinton had to get up this morning and get dressed and go out to speak on a stage in a place filled with strangers. I don't know how she does it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Words matter, my friends... Yesterday we witnessed the latest in a long line of casual comments from Donald Trump that crossed the line: his casual cruelty to a Gold Star family; his casual suggestion that more countries should have nuclear weapons; and now his casual inciting of violence. Every single one of these incidents shows us that Donald Trump simply does not have the temperament to be president and commander-in-chief of the United States."
posted by J.K. Seazer at 12:44 PM on August 10, 2016 [54 favorites]

Like a boss, that's how.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:44 PM on August 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

Expecting Trump to issue declarations that he's not "casual" about anything, followed by tweetstorm pointing out that he just confessed to deliberate cruelty and inciting of violence.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:45 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's like asking what's the best way to defeat ISIS? Other than Bush not creating them in the first place. There's a lot of people that get paid way better than me who don't know that, so, I can't say. If I could I imagine I'd be up for some sort of presidential appointment. But I'd prefer if this was all done subject to a declaration of war from Congress, or at the very least without the Obama DOJ fighting to apply John Yoo style secrecy to shield any meaningful Court review or public discussion.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:56 PM on August 10 [+] [!]

Ok, that was somewhat helpful, thanks. It still seems like, aside from your valid transparency issue, which wasn't part of your originally calling Obama a military adventurer or whatever, your objection boils down to "there's just got to be a better way." Otherwise, you don't explain why you look at the world and Obama's record and hold him accountable for the latter without cutting him slack for the former.

Myself, I feel reasonably confident that Obama is trying as best he can to NOT be militarily adventurous, and that he is reacting to a world where the choices for peaceful resolution are limited and the need to try to do something about failed states is imperative. I don't think he's an angel, but I think he basically wants to do the right thing. I believe Clinton is the same. It seems to me that judgements to the contrary are often pre-determined moral judgements made without reference, as in this case, to serious problems in the world.
posted by OmieWise at 12:46 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm pretty sure Trump's phone has long since been taken away. A few tweets mimicking him without the utter lunacy are all that remain.
posted by Yowser at 12:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Daniel Dale again: Donald Trump: "We want clean air and we want clean water. Do we agree? I want."

And yet he wants to increase coal mining and increase fracking. Does he see no connection between the two? Oh right. He doesn't live in those places where those things happen, he lives in Trump Tower where the water is filtered and no doubt the air can be filtered if necessary.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

"- we're gonna do sewer systems -"
[from crowd]
RRYYYYYYEEEEEAAAAAGGHHHHH!!!

That made me feel patriotic in a way I can't explain

Yeah, I'm still half giddy, half embarrassed by the huge happy yelp I let out during HRC's convention speech when she said the word "infrastructure".
posted by Mchelly at 12:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

blog post from the Guardian
US Secret Service agents rushed onto the stage as Hillary Clinton spoke in Des Moines, Iowa, on Wednesday to prevent an activist from reaching the stage.

The individual was taken down by agents before reaching the steps to the stage. It was not initially clear what he was protesting.

“Some people get a little carried away,” Clinton said, not missing a beat as two agents removed the protester from the gymnasium. She added: “but I get a little carried away about all the jobs we’re going to create.”

This is the second time in one week agents have had to rush onto the stage to protect Clinton while she spoke because of an activist. A group of animal rights activists were also escorted out of the event. They held a sign that was unreadable from the vantage point of this reporter. Volunteers moved to cover the sign with a white sheet before the activists were removed.

posted by ZeusHumms at 12:48 PM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

he lives in Trump Tower where the water is filtered and no doubt the air can be filtered if necessary.

Donald Trump's desk, probably.
posted by phunniemee at 12:49 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

When Clinton said "Imagine how you'll feel the day after the election..." just now, I burst into tears. I don't know if I can face that feeling, or what it means for my marriage, or my wife who is black. I believe she is going to win, but I am holding my breath. It's going to be such a relief to exhale.
posted by donnagirl at 12:50 PM on August 10, 2016 [24 favorites]

“Some people get a little carried away,” Clinton said, not missing a beat as two agents removed the protester from the gymnasium. She added: “but I get a little carried away about all the jobs we’re going to create.”

this is corny af but I dig it
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [37 favorites]

. I was thinking about how Donnie's little "joke" probably made all of the Secret Service very uneasy and all of the Secret Service families nervous.

And Clinton had to get up this morning and get dressed and go out to speak on a stage in a place filled with strangers. I don't know how she does it.

Possibly with a kevlar vest under that green shirt. Those were some awfully bulky shoulder pads.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump's desk, probably.

I can't make decisions! I'm a president!!
posted by J.K. Seazer at 12:52 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah they moved in a way that looked serious, but maybe they always look serious when they move?

i mentioned this in the last thread but anyway a few years ago i met biden's entire team (or at least the ones that travel with him) and they were all perfectly pleasant and friendly and almost aggressively ordinary, but they all also had an air of overwhelming competence, like literally anything they were faced with would be handled immediately, decisively, and above all appropriately. none of them are going to shoot a little kid holding a toy gun.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:52 PM on August 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

Possibly with a kevlar vest under that green shirt. Those were some awfully bulky shoulder pads.

In one of the previous election threads, someone noted that Mrs. Clinton was the first First Lady to ever be ordered by the Secret Service to wear a bulletproof vest. In 1994.
posted by zarq at 12:55 PM on August 10, 2016 [28 favorites]

We want clean air and we want clean water. Do we agree? I want

Mountaintop mining + coal + clean air + clean water + a pony + ice cream sundae
posted by kirkaracha at 12:55 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been curious about how the Trump campaign works, so I signed up for his emails. Today I got one ostensibly from him, but really from the GOP.(donaldjtrump.com[[e-mail]])

Interestingly, gmail sent it to my spam folder, but doesn't do that with emails from the Sanders or Clinton campaigns.

Anyway, the email implores me to "Take the Trump Campaign Strategy Survey Now" -- the naming of which is another bit of hamfistedness, on top of not dodging the spam filter. Seems like they shouldn't be so overt about not having a strategy and needing to know how to pander to their audience, bit instead have some euphemisms around it, maybe call it the "How To Make America Great Again Survey."

I was going to copy-paste the whole thing here, but it is lonnnnnnnggggg, so I'll just include a few highlights:

The first question (pick all that apply):

• Which of the following are your biggest concerns personally? (Select as many that apply)
• Job security
• Mortgage payments
• Social security
• Saving for children’s education
• Saving for retirement
• Social issues
• Terrorist threats
• Cost of living
• Increased crime
• Veteran aid
• Other

Subsequent questions (Yes/No/No Opinion):
• Should Trump spend more of his time going after Hillary’s record and her positions on the issues?
• Should Trump focus more on positive or negative advertising?

With regard to internal contradictions (5 options from Strongly Agree to Strongly Disagree):
• Under Obama, the powers of the presidency have been abused.
But then
• Obama’s executive orders must be rolled back on Trump’s first day in office.
• Republicans are correct to wait until Trump becomes president to confirm Justice Scalia’s replacement on the Supreme Court.
• The federal government should return much of its power to state and local governments.

And
• We cannot tax our way out of debt. Instead, we must stop wasteful spending to reduce our $19 trillion debt.
But also
• Trump must put an end to Obama’s military spending cuts.

Extra-Subtle Framing (Strongly Agree -- Strongly Disagree):
• Hillary Clinton’s plan to increase the number of refugees America takes in by 550% would be disastrous.
• Businesses have been crushed by burdensome regulations that stunt growth.
• Our next president must roll back regulations that have forced companies to relocate overseas.
• Taxpayers should not be forced to fund abortions.

And my favorite:
• Political correctness has gone too far. It now threatens our national security
posted by pocketfullofrye at 12:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

and they were all perfectly pleasant and friendly and almost aggressively ordinary, but they all also had an air of overwhelming competence, like literally anything they were faced with would be handled immediately, decisively, and above all appropriately.

Learning that top-ranking Secret Service officials — including the second-in-charge of President Obama's own personal detail — went out drinking, then plowed their government car into a barrier at the White House, would ordinarily ignite shock among administration officials and lawmakers.

Instead, that news Wednesday led only to disappointed head-shaking in Washington, where scandals involving the agency now seem to appear regularly.

"Add this on to the list of embarrassments," said Rep. Jason Chaffetz, the Republican chairman of the House panel responsible for overseeing the Secret Service.

posted by notyou at 12:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I love my future dorky president.
posted by angrycat at 12:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

Per Christina Wilkie -

Trump: “You [miners] just don’t vote and I don’t know why! I think it’s because you’ve been beaten up so badly. You’ve got nothing to lose!"

Is he trying to neg coal miners?
posted by Countess Elena at 12:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

I'm not sure how they handled that barrier that smashed into their vehicle, but probably immediately, decisively, and above all, appropriately.
posted by notyou at 12:59 PM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

lol you sure showed me
posted by poffin boffin at 1:00 PM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

• Political correctness has gone too far. It now threatens our national security

This is funny because "political correctness" itself, used this way, is an example of political correctness. They don't want to come out and say "racial profiling" or whatever it is their fevered heads think is where PCness threatens national security, they use "political correctness" as a less-offensive euphemism. And by funny I mean fuck these assholes
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:01 PM on August 10, 2016 [47 favorites]

• Should Trump focus more on positive or negative advertising?

I'm sure the correct answer, from the serious strategist viewpoint, is "yes."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:01 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

So maybe Meredith is a real person (I'm not sold), but who is Tassos of Patmos?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:02 PM on August 10, 2016

NoxAeternum, I will grant that that is a more accurate summary of what happened but the fact that it could and did go down that way doesn't exactly lend credence to the argument that our political process is anything other than a joke. A sick, unfunny joke.

The problem with your framing is that it's "both sides are at fault" bullshit. My framing, on the other hand, points out that the issue was caused by one faction trying to use this critical issue to undermine reproductive health.

Blame is like fertilizer - you have to spread it where it belongs.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Katy Tur: My Crazy Year with Trump

Trump decided to go further in Mount Pleasant, pointing his finger squarely at me and launching a personal attack as millions of Americans watched at home.

"What a lie it was," Trump said, referring to the claim that he had left the stage abruptly. "What a lie. Katy Tur. What a lie it was. Third. Rate. Reporter. Remember that." The crowd's boos ricocheted off the iron hull of the USS Yorktown.
[...]
It's unlikely, however, that any of Trump's future attacks will be as scary as what happened in Mount Pleasant, where the crowd, feeding off Trump, seemed to turn on me like a large animal, angry and unchained.

It wasn't until hours later, when Secret Service took the extraordinary step of walking me to my car, that the incident sank in.

The wave of insults, harassment, and threats, via various social-media feeds, hasn't stopped since. Many of the attacks are unprintable.

"MAYBE A FEW JOURNALISTS DO NEED TO BE WHACKED," tweeted someone with the handle GuyScott33, two weeks after Trump lashed out. "MAYBE THEN THEYD STOP BEI[N]G BIASED HACKS. KILL EM ALL STARTING W/ KATY TUR."

But I'm still ready with a wave. And whether or not Trump wins the White House, I'll still run for those live shots. What else am I supposed to do?

The article isn't all doom and gloom, but I think it's worth pointing out this kind of treatment is par for the course for the "alt-right" neo-facists and neo-Confederates, even those that don't support Trump.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [48 favorites]

but who is Tassos of Patmos?

The trickster satyr she met during her summer abroad in the Greek isles who gave her an enchanted pen that would make her a tremendously successful ghostwriter, but at a terrible cost she only realized too late when it bound her in servitude to Trump until such day as its curse could be broken

my expanded Meredithverse is pretty rich tbh
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:10 PM on August 10, 2016 [52 favorites]

Katrina Pierson is terrifying. There's just something deeply unsettling about her unfailingly blank stare and calm assurance as she spouts Trump's bullshit.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

The article isn't all doom and gloom, but I think it's worth pointing out this kind of treatment is par for the course for the "alt-right" neo-facists and neo-Confederates, even those that don't support Trump.

I like Katy Tur and follow her on Twitter, but there was something about that article that was really weird. I think it was something about how it mixed semi-salcious anecdotes, comments that verged on primping tips, weird self-promotion, and actually chilling talk about what being around Trump was like. My guess is that the weird mishmash was a result of it's being edited for and published in Marie Claire, but I'm not sure.
posted by OmieWise at 1:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

He keeps on going on about the Great Wall! From his speech at a coal mine today (where he said he can't lie to coal miners because they're "tough cookies"):

@scottbix:

Trump: "China built a wall 2,000 years ago – 13,000 miles."

The Great Wall is 5,500 miles long and was built over a period of 17 centuries.

posted by zombieflanders at 1:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

The individual was taken down by agents before reaching the steps to the stage. It was not initially clear what he was protesting.

“Some people get a little carried away,” Clinton said, not missing a beat as two agents removed the protester from the gymnasium. She added: “but I get a little carried away about all the jobs we’re going to create.”

Yesterday, her opponent became the latest in a long line of Ain't-Shit Men to call for her death. Today, a lone nut tries to come at her onstage and she turns it into setup about her jobs plan. That's not even icewater blood; that's liquid nitrogen.

What does fear even mean to someone who has stared down twenty-plus years of maniacal right wing hatred? What can rattle you anymore after going through that? Fear is Trump's only move, which is why we're finding out he has no moves against Hillary Clinton.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [82 favorites]

As long as we're busting out Biden travel anecdotes, some friends and I happened to be renting a beach house a few doors down from Biden

did he smoke you out bruh?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump holds sizable leads among white men without a college degree (31 points; 56% to 25%), white men with a college degree (11 points; 45% to 34%)

This is pretty puke worthy.

Katrina Pierson is terrifying. There's just something deeply unsettling about her unfailingly blank stare and calm assurance as she spouts Trump's bullshit.

Pierson is on some next-level bullshit. She's an artist in a horrible medium.
posted by dis_integration at 1:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump holds sizable leads among white men without a college degree (31 points; 56% to 25%), white men with a college degree (11 points; 45% to 34%)

The take-away from this appears to be that my college education is worth less than I thought.
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:25 PM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

North Carolinians! Update: HFA will be opening offices in Asheville, Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh, Wilmington, (one of these things is not like the others; one of these things just doesn't belong), and another 13 throughout the state. Hopefully, people will have the opportunity to start volunteering soon.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 1:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

That's not even icewater blood; that's liquid nitrogen.

This is funny because the people in the focus group don't like her because she's too "cold"

And by funny I mean I don't even know what funny means anymore
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

I like Katy Tur and follow her on Twitter, but there was something about that article that was really weird.

I think it's that Trump's foulness is normal to her since she's spent a year and a half around it. She's used to it. It's like seeing old photos of French families going about their daily business during the Nazi occupation of France.
posted by stolyarova at 1:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Josh Marshall: States where Clinton has a polling lead of AT LEAST 10 POINTS now account for 263 electoral votes >>> http://talkingpointsmemo.com/election/2016/us-president … via @TPM
posted by OmieWise at 1:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [30 favorites]

Gabrielle Giffords ‏@GabbyGiffords 20 hours ago

When candidates descend into insult, our politics follow suit. When they affirm violence, we should fear that violence will follow.

Gabby Giffords and Jo Cox's family know what happens when the candidates affirm violence. True, that's only two people, but if we got started, I'll bet we could very easily come up with hundreds more in our so-called civilized countries.

Violence begets violence and while a 78 year old white man sucker punching a black man at a rally and promising more violence later, the people around him cheer and consider what they will do next time.

And a movement (SPLC link) out of Tennessee grows claiming that Jews and Muslims have formed an alliance “to commit genocide of epic proportions” of the white race. And now is the time, for “the blood of our enemies [to] soak our soil to form new mortar to rebuild our landmasses.”

And the Bundy kids gathered their martyrs at a wildlife refuge. But despite us sending thousands of dildoes and treating them like a joke, the FBI gave them that martyr, and nationalists will be happy to use him when the time comes.

There are 95 white nationalist groups that we know of operating in the U.S. That doesn't include the anti-Muslim, KKK, skinhead, neo-Nazis or other random hate groups. Giuliani called the Black Lives Matters movement inherently racist. There is a judge in court at this moment who defied the laws of this country and ordered judges not to issue marriage licenses.

This country is ripe fruit for Trump's stochastic terrorism and not one of us knows where or how many of those grenades will land.
posted by Sophie1 at 1:31 PM on August 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

And yet he wants to increase coal mining and increase fracking. Does he see no connection between the two? Oh right. He doesn't live in those places where those things happen, he lives in Trump Tower where the water is filtered and no doubt the air can be filtered if necessary.

He gets his water from an aqueduct leading to reservoirs fed by the most stringently regulated watershed in the country. A greenie weenie's wet dream, I'd call it.

His party, meanwhile, is rapidly turning "red state" to mean "state color coded as a warning for visitors not to drink the tap water." Seriously: WI, OH, MI, NC, and arguably WV, all having serious water quality problems derived directly from Republican policies. Add PA as going to have that very soon.
posted by ocschwar at 1:32 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

there is a man scaling Trump Tower!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:32 PM on August 10, 2016

Trump holds sizable leads among white men without a college degree (31 points; 56% to 25%), white men with a college degree (11 points; 45% to 34%)

The take-away from this appears to be that my college education is worth less than I thought.

I dunno, did you ever talk to people when you were in college? A lot of aggressively dumb people make it through four-plus years without so much as a single idea creasing their cerebral lobes, but they still get a nice framable diploma just like the actual smart people.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

This is funny because the people in the focus group don't like her because she's too "cold"

Ugh, yeah, I know. And it kills be me because I'm comfortable assuming that a lot of folks with this objection to Hillary would see a male politician exhibit the exact same steadiness and think "how badass."
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:34 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Bad news: 7th circuit has stayed the lower court decision which tossed Wisconsin's voter (suppression) ID law. Very unclear if there's a remedy for this before election day. Good news: HRC leads by 15 points in Wisconsin.
posted by bearwife at 1:35 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

there is a man scaling Trump Tower!

Area Fly Attracted to Pile of Shit
posted by stolyarova at 1:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

there is a man scaling Trump Tower!

I wonder what that meeting is about in the floor above him.
posted by dirigibleman at 1:38 PM on August 10, 2016

I dunno, did you ever talk to people when you were in college? A lot of aggressively dumb people make it through four-plus years without so much as a single idea creasing their cerebral lobes, but they still get a nice framable diploma just like the actual smart people.

Alternative take-away: white dudes, as a class, trend towards sucking.

The two comments above stopped me in my tracks, because the first didn't seem to be the case for me when I was in college...and the second sparked my brain into realizing that white males were actually a minority at my college (I am a white male, for whatever that's worth).
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:38 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile, in Cruzland: "Wow, a cow made of butter."
posted by stolyarova at 1:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Oh, for simpler times. :(
posted by stolyarova at 1:44 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I dunno, did you ever talk to people when you were in college? A lot of aggressively dumb people make it through four-plus years without so much as a single idea creasing their cerebral lobes, but they still get a nice framable diploma just like the actual smart people

A lot of people go to college just to avoid having an L stamped on their foreheads, not out of any desire to get educated about anything.

And then they get Trump signs for their yards.
posted by ocschwar at 1:48 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

the first didn't seem to be the case for me when I was in college

Count yourself lucky then, you must have gone to a pretty exclusive school. I got a full ride to a state school, lived in Honors housing, and had the pleasure of interacting with a lot of bright and interesting people, but pretty much every class I took outside of the Honors experience was comprised of at least 10% total dumbos.

Not dumb as in merely average, but dumb as in dumb. And yep, most of them were white.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:49 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Alternative take-away: white dudes, as a class, trend towards sucking.

This is unarguably true, and I say it as a (cis, straight, U.S. citizen) white dude.

What we need is for someone to distill a MeFi Education™ into a fairly easily-read primer on How Not To Be An Entitled Asshole.

Honestly, mods - the place could make a fortune on the wannabes alone.
posted by Mooski at 1:49 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Honestly, mods - the place could make a fortune on the wannabes alone.

I have in all seriousness thought about starting an email newsletter whose only function is to prompt dudes to remember to do a little timely emotional labor on a weekly basis.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

imo: people, as a rule, trend toward sucking
posted by entropicamericana at 1:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

white dudes, as a class, trend towards sucking.

We're better than this.

It's one thing to say "White dudes tend not to recognize how much things suck for everyone else, and how much things used to suck even more, because they haven't had those experiences" and another thing to put down white dudes just for being white dudes, as though the whole race and gender were inherently inferior.

I know what you guys mean, but as we're seeing this year, words matter, rhetoric matters.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:53 PM on August 10, 2016 [41 favorites]

I have in all seriousness thought about starting an email newsletter whose only function is to prompt dudes to remember to do a little timely emotional labor on a weekly basis.

this is a great idea
posted by zutalors! at 1:55 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

So at this exact, precise moment, there is a guy trying to scale Trump Tower in NYC using a couple of huge-ass suction cups and no one yet knows why.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:56 PM on August 10, 2016

imo: people, as a rule, trend toward sucking

#AllSucksMatter ? White dudes have their own special brand which has managed to fuck up wide swaths of the planet and its population.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Katrina Pierson is terrifying.

My wife says using the "C" word for any woman is horrible and repugnant but yesterday told me she was going to make an exception for Katrina Pierson and then began to make me blush with her language.
posted by charred husk at 1:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

as we're seeing words matter, rhetoric matters

That's the opposite of what I'm seeing honestly, but point taken; stereotyping is pretty sucky.

Certified white dude Evan McMullin would never be caught making that rictus in front of a butter cow.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump's "strategy" is so weird.

In chess, you start exchanging pieces — a knight for a knight, and so on — when you have a material advantage. With fewer pieces on the board, your advantage grows proportionally.

Trump is way behind, and he's basically exchanging pieces. There are plenty of people willing to go along with "I just don't trust Hillary." How many people will accede to she's "a horrible, horrible person" who should be killed, and she's some weird combo of brainwashed/incapacitated/unfit? You're trading the persuadable middle in return for people who already hated Hillary to begin with.

And of course he's trading women for angry men; gun-concerned for gun nuts; moderates for right wingers in general. In every exchange he's giving up a potential vote for one he already has.

If Trump wins, it's because campaigns don't matter. But they do, and this is one of the worst I've ever seen.
posted by argybarg at 1:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

Count yourself lucky then, you must have gone to a pretty exclusive school. I got a full ride to a state school, lived in Honors housing, and had the pleasure of interacting with a lot of bright and interesting people, but pretty much every class I took outside of the Honors experience was comprised of at least 10% total dumbos.

State school, surprisingly enough - admittedly, part of the U.C. system, but still a state school - but I lived in transfer/graduate housing (and then a year in an off-campus apartment). I think I really did just get lucky.
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> "China built a wall 2,000 years ago – 13,000 miles."

The distance from Kamchatka to Dublin, by the way, is about 7,700 miles. A 13,000 mile wall could therefore have stretched across the entirety of Asia, hopped across the Bosphorus to cut Europe in half, while also including a spur extending southwest to divide northern Africa from southern Africa.

But, hey. "Facts".
posted by kyrademon at 1:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Mod note: I both basically get and sympathize with what the underlying motivations of "white dudes tend to suck" are and think it's getting into really sort of not-great territory in terms of the kind of spirit of being decent we otherwise are fairly collectively after on the site to actively pursue that as a generalized line of discussion, so let's please step back toward just substantive discussion of the actual details here instead of continuing down the path of that argument.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

I guess the difference is I don't feel put down by the statement, 'cause it's not a putdown, it's a warning: "Careful, 'cause between privilege, rape culture, and ignorance, a white guy stands a hell of a lot better chance of being unpleasant."

Substitute the word of your choice for 'unpleasant.'
posted by Mooski at 1:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think Katy Tur deserves a medal, personally. She's been fantastic this campaign season, under ridiculous circumstances. Her twitter feed is must-read stuff, and often hilarious. Often you'll hear of a Trump gaffe there well before it hits the fan.

I was never aware of her before, and initially I thought she seemed like a lightweight choice for that brutal assignment of being embedded in the Trump campaign. But she has risen to the occasion and impressed the hell out of me. I keep saying she has to write a book after this.
posted by spitbull at 1:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

one of

elaborate
posted by Going To Maine at 1:59 PM on August 10, 2016

I have in all seriousness thought about starting an email newsletter whose only function is to prompt dudes to remember to do a little timely emotional labor on a weekly basis.

Package it as "How To Get Laid More: 5 Minutes A Week With These Secret Tips Can Make You Sexy." And then make each of them something that can indeed be done in five minutes; don't tell them that learning how to pay attention to when to use the tips will take a lifetime.

Example: fill out a holiday greeting cards for a relative. Write brief note inside ("Holiday cheers from NAME and NAME!"); use sticker for return address; write relative's address on outside; attach stamp; throw in mailslot. Poof, five minutes; tell your significant other and get a sparkly "thank you, dear."

Don't bother pointing out that picking which relative(s) and finding their contact info takes more than five minutes... let them figure out on their own that their partner's been coping with this for years.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:01 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

EmpressCallipygos : So at this exact, precise moment, there is a guy trying to scale Trump Tower in NYC using a couple of huge-ass suction cups and no one yet knows why.

Between the Johnny Gentle-Trump comparisons, and now the Mister Squishy-Suction-Cup-Climbing-Guy, it's becoming clear that David Foster Wallace wrote our future for us.
posted by rp at 2:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

I've never read any David Foster Wallace, but I have a copy of Consider the Lobster. Am I missing out? Will it help me understand this election season?
posted by stolyarova at 2:13 PM on August 10, 2016

the October Surprise is lobsters on cruise ships, and they've all got depression!
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:15 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Probably not. Just make you more paranoid and less hopeful, but maybe more able to laugh about it.
posted by rp at 2:16 PM on August 10, 2016

There's a live feed of the Trump Tower climber. Police seemed to have punched through a window to talk to him. The climber seems to be moving away from the window.
posted by AFABulous at 2:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is a weird year.
posted by AFABulous at 2:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [35 favorites]

Just hours after Donald Trump sparked yet another controversy with remarks that seemed, to some, to encourage violence against Hillary Clinton, the NRA went public with its biggest gift yet to the Republican nominee - a $3 million ad buy attacking Clinton as a hypocrite.

The spot – which calls Clinton “out of touch” for living under Secret Service protection while promoting gun restrictions – is the biggest single ad buy for Trump this cycle and it brings the NRA’s total spending this cycle to around $6 million.

No other major political group is spending money on the Republican nominee.

NRA circles the wagons around Trump (Politico)
posted by salix at 2:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

lobsters don't senesce so I feel super bad about the idea of eating one
posted by stolyarova at 2:16 PM on August 10, 2016

tbh I'd avoid DFW until after the election if you're a sensitive type
posted by angrycat at 2:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

The spot – which calls Clinton “out of touch” for living under Secret Service protection while promoting gun restrictions – is the biggest single ad buy for Trump this cycle and it brings the NRA’s total spending this cycle to around $6 million.

First, Trump suggests somebody should shoot her. Then, the NRA suggests she should give up her Secret Service protection. I mean, come on. A little on the nose there, guys.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:19 PM on August 10, 2016 [59 favorites]

> I choose to understand 'MEREDITH' as the avatar of all those women who have been caught in complicated patterns of subservience to, complicity in and (I hope) subversion of the male power structure.

ALL POWER TO THE MEREDITHS.

the happy epilogue of the graphic novel where all the jokes about 2016 are true has at least a couple of panels showing the giant tacky TRUMP signs getting taken down from Trump properties and replaced with genuinely classy signs reading "Meredith!"
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:19 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

ALL POWER TO THE MEREDITHS.

Looking forward to Hillary naming a panel of Merediths as advisers to counter Trump's panel of Steves.
posted by phunniemee at 2:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

There's a live feed of the Trump Tower climber. Police seemed to have punched through a window to talk to him. The climber seems to be moving away from the window.

Dude just keeps moving his suction cups around but staying in the same place. I'm gonna be late for a dinner thing because I'm just watching some dude scale the Trump Tower. He's got nice calves tho.
posted by dis_integration at 2:25 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

His hand's gotta hurt from banging the sides of the cups.
posted by mochapickle at 2:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

He was moving away from the open window; now he's moving up again. This is as riveting to me as balloon boy, but I'm pretty sure it's real. Unless we're in a simulation.
posted by AFABulous at 2:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

In other "this can't be happening, it can't be getting this crazy" news: Latest Kansas poll shows a tight race.
posted by dw at 2:31 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

where is the live feed of Trump on the phone with his building manager asking why they can't just dump rocks or boiling oil on suction cup guy, what the hell does he think Trump hired him for anyway
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:32 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Man climbing #trumptower has told police his name is Steve and he's from Virginia.

STEVE!!!
posted by stolyarova at 2:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [72 favorites]

At this rate he might make the top by election day. Maybe.
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on August 10, 2016

Trump Tower is 663′. They really couldn't have added 3 more feet?
posted by AFABulous at 2:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [30 favorites]

t only has the Secret Service talked with the Trump campaign about his comments yesterday, they've had "multiple conversations" since then

OK, history question time - has any other candidate for President had to have a conversation with the Secret Service regarding the comments the candidate is making about their opponent?
posted by nubs at 2:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

How awesome would it have been if the climber was Egg McMuffin (can't be bothered to scroll up to remember his real name)?
posted by stolyarova at 2:38 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

NPR is saying that the Trump campaign is denying the meetings.
Sad!
No actually that's pretty funny.
posted by angrycat at 2:38 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I can't really make sense of Steve from VA's system with the suction cups and the webbing.

It doesn't look like Steve can, either.
posted by notyou at 2:39 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

So many Steves in 2016. Have there always been this many Steves?
posted by glhaynes at 2:39 PM on August 10, 2016

Steve is taking so long the camera feed changed to people watching him on the ground and taking selfies.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:40 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Latest Kansas poll shows a tight race.

“In modern history this has been one of the worst weeks for a Presidential candidate,” said KSN Political Expert Jeff Jarman."

Official Trump Campaign Response (fake)
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:40 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Too many Steves. Need more SMARF.
posted by snofoam at 2:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't really make sense of Steve from VA's system with the suction cups and the webbing.

He has three suction cups - he moves one up at a time and puts his carabiner/support loops through it, then removes the one that he's no longer standing on. It's a good system, actually.
posted by stolyarova at 2:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't really make sense of Steve from VA's system with the suction cups and the webbing.

The webbing is attached the cups. You put your feet in the webbing for a standing platform. THen you move a second set up cups up. Repeat.
posted by dis_integration at 2:41 PM on August 10, 2016

the Stevebeacon has been lit, all Steves are hereby summoned to Trump Tower for the Stevemoot
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:42 PM on August 10, 2016 [75 favorites]

What a Trump believes... he Steeeeeeeeves...
No fact check has the power to reason away
posted by tonycpsu at 2:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

#ImWithSteveFromVA
posted by AFABulous at 2:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

This has Steve written all over it
posted by angrycat at 2:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Stevemoot
I'm sorry, but you win.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

This gives a whole new meaning to #firststevenjobs, as it were.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:44 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Steve"? Was "Randy" taken?
posted by indubitable at 2:45 PM on August 10, 2016

Seriously? Steve from VA is climbing the Trump tower now?

WTF, Election 2016? The scriptwriters were clearly drunk in the early season, then high through midseason, but now they are drunk *and* high *and* deliberately trolling us in a ratings quest...
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:46 PM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

Looks like four suction cups*, two attached to foot straps and the other two linked to his climbing harness. The climbing harness ones don't move up much when he resets them.

---------------------
*"Cupping Steve"?
posted by notyou at 2:47 PM on August 10, 2016

the Stevebeacon has been lit, all Steves are hereby summoned to Trump Tower for the Stevemoot

"I am not going to tell you my name, not yet at any rate. For one thing it would take a long while: my name is growing all the time, and I've lived a very long, long time; so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of things they belong to in my language, in the Old Steveish as you might say. It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to.”
"Is your name Steve?"
"...yes. It's Steve."
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:48 PM on August 10, 2016 [30 favorites]

He has three suction cups - he moves one up at a time and puts his carabiner/support loops through it, then removes the one that he's no longer standing on. It's a good system, actually.

"Loser human fly only has 3 suction cups. Batman, Mission Impossible guy always know to use 4. But lying media says his system is 'good.' Pathetic!"

[fake]
posted by PlusDistance at 2:50 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

And the camera pans up. Steve from VA has a long, long way to go.
posted by notyou at 2:50 PM on August 10, 2016

The feed just panned up to the top of the building. At the rate he's going it'll be midnight if they let him climb the whole way. There's some reporting they're going to just let him. That will be interesting if they do.
posted by cashman at 2:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The fake tags are one of my favorite things about this thread, right next to the clumsy spidersteve answering the ancient call
posted by schadenfrau at 2:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

I mean, he's not hurting anybody and he's providing entertainment for millions. Why not?
posted by stolyarova at 2:52 PM on August 10, 2016

August 10, Y.O.T.D ( Year of the Dumpster )

On the day after a presidential candidate threatens shooting opponent, a man climbs aforementioned threatening candidate's tower with the aid of suction cups and nobody can really figure out why he's just offyougo, more meaningstarved entertainments for the youtubes intentionally or perhaps unintentionally obfuscating daily reality of what happens when large portions of an entire society have been following a moral compass driven not by magnets but fear — observing all of this Don sits outside the Ennet house and strongly considers relapsing into certain death only preceded by a brief release.
posted by localhuman at 2:52 PM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Looks like four suction cups*, two attached to foot straps and the other two linked to his climbing harness. The climbing harness ones don't move up much when he resets them.

"In response to my tweet, lying media now saying loser fly has 4 cups. Can't even keep their story straight! Always taking shots at me! Sad!"

[fake]
posted by PlusDistance at 2:53 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Look at that window rattle when the guy kicks it!
posted by acidic at 2:54 PM on August 10, 2016

I can't trust suction cups with a soap caddy, and yet they can be trusted with the weight of a whole dude. Hard to understand. I watched him for a while, and he's not climbing erratically or with any visible impairment, which is more than one can say for the man he wants to meet.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:55 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Looks like Steve from VA will soon have to contend with window washers.
posted by notyou at 2:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know, this is what happens when you incite people. If Cory Booker had not recklessly quoted from Maya Angelou's "Yet, Still I Rise" during his DNC speech, maybe there wouldn't be a crazy-assed hippie trying to TP Trump Tower.
posted by spitbull at 2:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

[Trump hangs up on his building manager, calls Meredith]

TRUMP: Meredith, drop whatever you're doing and get a broom or a mop or something. Some loser is trying to climb up my building and I need you to take care of it. Just lean out the window, give him a few whacks until he falls off.

MEREDITH: Gosh and darn it Mr. Trump I have to put my foot down now we have had this conversation before and I told you I will not kill a man for you

TRUMP: Meredith, you're worse than useless. Fine, I'll get one of my economic advisors to do it.

STEVE #1: I'm sorry, Mr. Trump, but we have sworn a sacred oath.

STEVE #2: We cannot raise a hand against a fellow Steve.

TRUMP: This is terrible. I'm surrounded by good-for-nothing losers. Sad!

[Chris Christie places his hand on Trump's shoulder]

CHRISTIE: Mr. Trump, it would be my honor to step in and solve this--

TRUMP: Who the hell let you come upstairs, Chris?

TO BE CONTINUED...?
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [78 favorites]

He's climbing for Meredith

This is the day she breaks free
posted by schadenfrau at 2:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

You know, this is what happens when you incite people. If Cory Booker had not recklessly quoted from Maya Angelou's "Yet, Still I Rise" during his DNC speech, maybe there wouldn't be a crazy-assed hippie trying to TP Trump Tower.

i fully expect npr to air someone essentially saying this in the name of "fairness."
posted by entropicamericana at 2:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Steve doesn't seem to know there's a FirstResponderBucket just around the corner...
posted by mochapickle at 2:59 PM on August 10, 2016

All Chris Christie has to do is go out there and work the goddamn cones.
posted by spitbull at 2:59 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

pbo, can I share that on Facebook?
posted by stolyarova at 2:59 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope someone is at the bottom holding Steve's beer.
posted by AFABulous at 2:59 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

sure, stolyarova!
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:01 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Crazy Climber really could have used a cop/window washer enemy.
posted by glhaynes at 3:01 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Thank you! I'll cite.
posted by stolyarova at 3:02 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Have there always been this many Steves?
I blame The Daily Show where the first stand-out 'correspondents' were Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:02 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Have there always been this many Steves?
I blame The Daily Show where the first stand-out 'correspondents' were Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert.

Just how long has the liberal media been out to get Trump? Sad!
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:04 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

My inner Steve and Meredith fanfic was always more of an office farce, but an action thriller opens up all sorts of new possibilities.

Apparently, this Steve has a YouTube video somewhere from yesterday where he said he planned to do this and it seems to be for publicity.
posted by zachlipton at 3:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

BoingBoing says this video might be our climbing Steve.
posted by donnagirl at 3:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Crazy Climber video linked above was uploaded by steverd99.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 3:07 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump Supporters Celebrate Festival w/ Trump Looking Down On Hillary's Dead Body In A Coffin
posted by stolyarova at 3:07 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think they're about to break another window to stop him.
posted by stolyarova at 3:08 PM on August 10, 2016

Having seen that video, I kind of feel bad for Steve. He doesn't seem well.

And he wants us all to vote for Trump, so yeah.
posted by zachlipton at 3:09 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

...And out comes a giant panel about 15-20 feet above. Yowza.
posted by mochapickle at 3:09 PM on August 10, 2016

Yeah they've removed a giant window pane a few floors above him.
posted by yellowbinder at 3:09 PM on August 10, 2016

aaaaaa ha ha ha he is such a boy, look at that video
I really hope someone gets him back safe to his mother
posted by Countess Elena at 3:09 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

They're just chillin up there waiting for him.
posted by cashman at 3:09 PM on August 10, 2016

That video... I was hoping Steve was a protester. Apparently not.
posted by mochapickle at 3:10 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm supposed to be playing No Man's Sky but I'm glued to this fool.
posted by yellowbinder at 3:11 PM on August 10, 2016

Can't wait for the Oscar winning documentary on this 'Steve on a Window'.
posted by PenDevil at 3:12 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

honestly if you're going to do this and not even try to put together a cursory human fly costume why even bother
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Trump Supporters Celebrate Festival w/ Trump Looking Down On Hillary's Dead Body In A Coffin

And people keep thinking doing stuff like that is a good idea. I wish I were mystified.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I bet Trump is pissed.
posted by glhaynes at 3:13 PM on August 10, 2016

Bearing in mind that one poll is nothing, from Grant Smith at Reuters: “One-in-five U.S. Republicans want Trump to drop out: Reuters/Ipsos poll”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:14 PM on August 10, 2016

Yikes, that video adds a scary layer on this and I can't make jokes about it. I hope Steve's okay.
posted by AFABulous at 3:14 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah it's ceased to be particularly funny for me after seeing his video.
posted by zachlipton at 3:15 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

now I feel bad for my earlier comment, he really may not be well and he shouldn't die for this. But I don't think he will, with the mattress
posted by Countess Elena at 3:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

And they said there'd be nothing left to live blog after the conventions.
posted by that's how you get ants at 3:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

That video just makes me sad for him. What's his story? Who are the people in his life? Why didn't they help him?
posted by stolyarova at 3:17 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holy shit that video

Steve's an alt-right redditor who thinks he's half V from Vendetta and half Iron Man on the make

Like the platonic ideal of a loser with delusions of grandeur
posted by schadenfrau at 3:17 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah. Now that he's cornered....yikes.

The cops in the upper right seem to be prepping some rope or something?
posted by notyou at 3:18 PM on August 10, 2016

Like the platonic ideal of a loser with delusions of grandeur.

I'm afraid that honor belongs to another.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

Now I know who he reminds me of: the Trashcan Man
posted by Countess Elena at 3:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

WTH Steve what you doing there chap
posted by angrycat at 3:18 PM on August 10, 2016

(He didn't seem unwell to me, just raised on the Internet? Hope I'm right for Steve's sake)
posted by schadenfrau at 3:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

So they've taken out two panels along the accordion pleats and they are working on a third. I still don't think he knows about the hanging police bucket around the corner. He's trapped.
posted by mochapickle at 3:19 PM on August 10, 2016

He seems to be trying to go around the corner of the building away from the open panels, which is really scary. I hope they have airbags on that side.
posted by AFABulous at 3:20 PM on August 10, 2016

It depends on what his "policy proposal" for Trump is.
posted by stolyarova at 3:20 PM on August 10, 2016

Jesus. His tone reminds me of the Isla Vista gunman. Is this a thing?
posted by Sophie1 at 3:20 PM on August 10, 2016

I hope he doesn't do anything with that backpack.
posted by cashman at 3:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm in class, writing Java homework, and barely paying attention to the video.

Please tell me climbingSteveVA has a safety harness or something.
posted by spinifex23 at 3:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump Supporters Celebrate Festival w/ Trump Looking Down On Hillary's Dead Body In A Coffin

They gave it "Best Presentation". They gave it a fucking award.

This fucking country. The worst thing anyone said about Tony Abbott back home was that he was a river bottom scum sucker. Then the catfish complained it was offensive to compare Tony Abbott to them and it was promptly stopped.
posted by Talez at 3:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Steve come down

It'll be okay

We'll all go out for Egg McMuffins once you're safe down here
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh Jesus

LET US HAVE ONE FUNNY THING, UNIVERSE

ONE THING THAT DOESNT TURN OUT TO BE MADE OUT OF FLAMING TRAGEDY
posted by schadenfrau at 3:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

He's certainly determined to keep climbing.
posted by notyou at 3:24 PM on August 10, 2016

> David Foster Wallace... Will it help me understand this election season?

His essay on 9/11 has respect for people who don't know what the f po-mo means at a critical time for America. He showed compassion despite his intelligence that we can all learn from.
posted by morganw at 3:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I hope he doesn't do anything with that backpack.

He's white with the media trained on him. He could have a portable nuke in there and get out alive.
posted by Talez at 3:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

now would be a great time for the B-Sharps to have an impromptu rooftop reunion concert
posted by entropicamericana at 3:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

spinifex, he actually seems to know what he's doing WRT climbing. Can't really speculate about his life choices.
posted by AFABulous at 3:28 PM on August 10, 2016

They're offering him a rope and he doesn't want it. Going around the corner. I'm worried for him.
posted by stolyarova at 3:29 PM on August 10, 2016

I just want to say that this entire election season (starting well over a year ago with the clown car) has defied any rational expectations that I ever had for it, and I am so very grateful for having experienced the bulk of it through this very site. It's incredibly surreal, very disturbing, and I think I'm in much better mental and emotional health as a direct result of the commentary from everyone here.

Now I say that while at the same time compulsively following this thread, just as I have followed all others, unlikely to get anything done until well after the election itself. This is healthier than just obsessing over it in my own head alone, right? ...RIGHT?
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:31 PM on August 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

Are they gonna grab him?
posted by mochapickle at 3:31 PM on August 10, 2016

he looks like Kyle Mooney

I just wanted to get that in there while it's still ok to make lighthearted comments
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:31 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

As bizarre and worrying as it is to watch Steve do this climbing stunt, it's weirder still to get the whole thing with the live commentary from literally Just Some Guy In An Office who is a shakycam nightmare and keeps hollering for his coworker Dan in incongruous fits of annoyance.

The future is the present is the everything is weird.
posted by cortex at 3:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

I'm concerned they're distracting him. I don't see how it would be safe to grab him.
posted by AFABulous at 3:33 PM on August 10, 2016

I hope political correctness doesn't make him fall.
posted by nom de poop at 3:34 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Right now they seem to be taking the "We're here for you, dude" angle, which is a good one. I hope they don't grab him.
posted by stolyarova at 3:34 PM on August 10, 2016

Thank christ, they grabbed him and yanked him into the window.
posted by cortex at 3:34 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

What's the endgame here, Steve?
posted by vverse23 at 3:35 PM on August 10, 2016

Really glad he's okay.
posted by zug at 3:35 PM on August 10, 2016

Wow the ABC facebook feed cut to the youtube video exactly at the right time to miss Steve getting pulled into the window
posted by theodolite at 3:35 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Got 'im.
posted by notyou at 3:35 PM on August 10, 2016

TRAGEDY AVERTED, LET THE SNARK FLOW
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

[game over sound plays]
posted by glhaynes at 3:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

CNN with the hard-hitting fact checking... "Science entertainment television program "MythBusters" investigated Hollywood heist scenes and tested whether it was possible to scale an air duct using suction cups in episode 54, which aired in July 2006. Presenter Jamie Hyneman found suction cups were able to hold his weight but the noise of his contraption, which included a vacuum, were too noisy and blew his cover." (http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/10/politics/trump-tower-suction-cups/index.html)
posted by modernnomad at 3:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh dear I'm glad that gamble worked out for them.
posted by stolyarova at 3:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thank goodness he's safe. That video has me worried about him.
posted by mochapickle at 3:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hey, free climbing equipment.
posted by vverse23 at 3:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Welp. 89 more days.
posted by mazola at 3:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [55 favorites]

I wonder what he will be charged with. "Trespassing" seems a little light.
posted by AFABulous at 3:37 PM on August 10, 2016

Public disturbance?
posted by stolyarova at 3:38 PM on August 10, 2016

this whole episode took place between when i left the office and when i got back to the hotel

you win, 2016, I can't even pretend to keep up anymore
posted by murphy slaw at 3:38 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

at least now we can get away from this derail and get back to discussing [scrolls up] Evan McMullin
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:38 PM on August 10, 2016 [42 favorites]

Ok what did i just watch?
posted by ramix at 3:40 PM on August 10, 2016

conduct unbefitting Steve.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Egg?
posted by stolyarova at 3:42 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Steve from VA wanted to be OUTSIDE the room, gummed to the windows where it was happening.
posted by mochapickle at 3:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

The future is the present is the everything is weird

cortex, you just found both the zeitgeist of 2016 and the refrain of your next song.
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:45 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

get back to discussing [scrolls up] Evan McMullin

Who?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:45 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Egg McWaffle
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:46 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

All this Egg McMuffin talk is making me hungry.
posted by sporkwort at 3:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

#NotAllSteves
posted by yesster at 3:47 PM on August 10, 2016

All this Egg McMuffin talk is making me hungry.

They serve Evan McMullins all day now
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:48 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

So... Clinton is up 10 in NH. At this point she could lose the three big swing states, take everywhere she has a comfortable lead, and still win the election.
posted by codacorolla at 3:49 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I see McMullinMentum is picking up again in this thread.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 3:49 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I mean I'm happy the polls are showing that but I'm a congenital pessimist and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
posted by stolyarova at 3:50 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

get back to discussing [scrolls up] Evan McMullin

Is that the kid from Home Alone?
posted by jason_steakums at 3:50 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm looking through the 31 Tremendous, Classy, Terrific Portraits of Donald Trump. Proceed with caution; some of these are the stuff of nightmares.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I mean I'm happy the polls are showing that but I'm a congenital pessimist and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

True, there's a lot of election left.
posted by codacorolla at 3:51 PM on August 10, 2016

Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's Best Christian:

Melania just told me: "That man with the suction cups is not the first person to suck his way to the top of Trump Tower." She's such a card.

posted by kirkaracha at 3:52 PM on August 10, 2016 [21 favorites]

McMullinMentum

We're going to Ogden, we're going to Provo, then we're going to Salt Lake City! YAAARGH!
posted by sporkwort at 3:53 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Once I dated one Steve shortly after another. Steve Two did something where I said Steve! loudly and it was that bad early relationship thing where you say the name of the former person you were dating. Only because it was another Steve, my shame was only interior and somewhat confused.

I mean when else was I going to tell this story on metafilter. Thank you for your time.
posted by angrycat at 3:54 PM on August 10, 2016 [120 favorites]

I see McMullinMentum is picking up again in this thread.

He's a good Egg?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:55 PM on August 10, 2016

He needs a really tall guy to follow around and go on adventures with
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:57 PM on August 10, 2016

When I grow up I want to be Evan McMullin, because eat Evan McMullin.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:57 PM on August 10, 2016

Donald Trump's presidential campaign is beefing up its Connecticut presence with the hiring of a new state director and plans for a rally.

J.R. Romano, executive director of the Connecticut Republican Party, said the Trump campaign is seeking a venue for a rally, possibly this weekend, but nothing has been finalized.

"There is a willingness for Donald Trump to come back to Connecticut," Romano said. "It means that Connecticut's in play. The Democrats in this state may not want to see it but it's true."

Really? Connecticut is in play?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

With the hiring of a new state director that will bring Trump's state manpower up to roughly 1!
posted by Justinian at 4:00 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Connecticut is an easy commute for campaigning.
posted by octothorpe at 4:01 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Connecticut is in play?

It's in helicopter distance of his own bed.
posted by chris24 at 4:02 PM on August 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

538's analysis of the polls in Connecticut shows Clinton with a 92.2% chance of taking the state; that figure has never fallen below 70%.

Seriously though, what the fuck is the Trump campaign doing? They can't be this incompetent. But then, it's hard to imagine what 11-dimensional chess they think they're playing.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

What Links Donald Trump’s Economy Team
Nine of nominee’s 14 advisers are known for audacious bets in real estate, finance

Those nine are united by more than their wealth. On Wall Street, they are outsiders, known for audacious bets and, sometimes, spectacular flameouts. Five of them are among Mr. Trump’s biggest donors, contributing a total of $1.7 million in recent months to his campaign’s joint fundraising efforts with the Republican Party.

The campaign, trailing in the polls and criticized for naming only men to the economics team, is preparing to disclose the names of as many as 10 additional economic advisers in the next couple of days, including some “very prominent” women, according to Steven Mnuchin, Mr. Trump’s national finance chairman. Mr. Mnuchin wouldn’t identify the new advisers.[...]

Six individuals on the Trump economics team, including Mr. Barrack, have at times pursued “distressed investing,” going after assets such as soured mortgages or the debt of struggling companies. When companies restructure their balance sheets, distressed investors can make a neat profit. But the strategy is risky, and is confined to a corner of the finance world.

Oh I can't wait to hear about all these "prominent women" who will be joining his economic team. I wonder if Meredith will be drafted to serve.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Connecticut is an easy commute for campaigning.

A perfect application of Trump's Razor and therefore true.
posted by argybarg at 4:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

Really? Connecticut is in play?

No.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Can someone briefly explain what causes the difference between 538's "NowCast" and "Polls Only?" Aren't the polls what tell you who would win if the election were held today? (I understand the Polls Plus difference.)
posted by tzikeh at 4:04 PM on August 10, 2016

They're trying to find "prominent women" who support Trump with experience in a business or finance-related field who happen to be named Steve. There aren't a lot who meet the criteria.

I bet Hillary's data team could find someone though.
posted by zachlipton at 4:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

The NowCast tells you who would win if the election were held today. The Polls Only assumes that the polls move in a historically reasonable direction between now and November (usually this means tightening).
posted by dfan at 4:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

gee I wonder if maybe Clinton's SS detail is on extra-high alert all of a sudden for some reason

The preferred abbreviation is USSS (for obvious reasons).
posted by zakur at 4:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

What, like he's just going to leave those seven juicy EVs on the table??
posted by theodolite at 4:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Seriously though, what the fuck is the Trump campaign doing?

He wants to see packed halls and fiercely enthusiastic crowds - and speaking to red holdouts in blue states is a great way to get that result. It won't get him more votes, but Trump isn't actually concerned with votes. Those are abstract,distant things; he cares about hearing people chant his name - that proves to him that he's amazingly popular.

I wonder if he's got campaign stops planned in California.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:07 PM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

including some “very prominent” women

Did one of the Steves get hold of Romney's binders?
posted by tzikeh at 4:07 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Those nine are united by more than their wealth. On Wall Street, they are outsiders, known for audacious bets and, sometimes, spectacular flameouts.

In other words, the only people who are betting on Trump are the people with a history of making stupid bets.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 4:08 PM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

They're trying to find "prominent women" who support Trump with experience in a business or finance-related field who happen to be named Steve. There aren't a lot who meet the criteria.

Do we care if they're US citizens? Because I found one. (She probably doesn't support Trump, but she might join the team for the giggles.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:08 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Connecticut hasnt been polled since June. Clinton 41 Trump 36
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:09 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can someone briefly explain what causes the difference between 538's "NowCast" and "Polls Only?"

"The now-cast is basically the polls-only model, except that we lie to our computer and tell it the election is today."
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:10 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Seriously though, what the fuck is the Trump campaign doing? They can't be this incompetent. But then, it's hard to imagine what 11-dimensional chess they think they're playing.

I seriously think he's intentionally throwing money at these states he knows don't make any sense, because a state with potential could end up building a big ground operation with lots of overhead, but a dead-end state means a skeleton crew operation so the bulk of the money can go back to his own companies for their "services".
posted by jason_steakums at 4:11 PM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

The NowCast tells you who would win if the election were held today. The Polls Only assumes that the polls move in a historically reasonable direction between now and November (usually this means tightening).

Okay, then I guess my confusion IS the difference between Polls and Polls Plus, since assumption of tightening seems to be what the factors of Polls Plus basically are.
posted by tzikeh at 4:11 PM on August 10, 2016

Honestly, as bad as it is to release a list of 14 economic advisors with no women and barely any economics experience, it comes across even worse to say "ok we hear you, we'll find some great women now." Isn't that just straight up tokenism?

Do we care if they're US citizens? Because I found one. (She probably doesn't support Trump, but she might join the team for the giggles.)

She sounds pretty damn awesome. She also sounds strikingly competent, so I'm not sure this is the job for her.
posted by zachlipton at 4:12 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

At one point I was college roommates with a Steve, a Steven, and a Stevie all at the same time. Trump if you are reading this I will trade them for Pennsylvania Ave and both utilities.
posted by nom de poop at 4:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

And when I saw The Donald mock the sixth baby, there was a great earthquake and the sun became black like Newts heart, and the moon turned burnt orange, and the panels of Trump Tower fell to the earth like figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The Republicans receded from their party like a scroll being rolled up and from every mountain and island flowed an endless tide of Steves.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 4:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

Connecticut is an easy commute for campaigning.

A perfect application of Trump's Razor and therefore true.

I know this is all very fun and it makes for a great joke, but sooner or later I would like to know what the hell is going on. Is this a serious campaign or a clown show? Does Trump believe that campaigning only in states nearest his home is a viable strategy? or is it just easier? And if he is doing it because it is easier than why is he doing it all? Wouldn't it be better to just stay home and tweet shit and hold press conferences?

I know that some people are suggesting that he doesn't want to actually win. If not then what is his end goal? Does he think he is going to exit this run with improved name recognition and wider opportunities? Where I am sitting it looks pretty clear he is dragging his name through the mud and at least half the country despises him. I personally never gave much thought to him prior to this election but now I know he is a con artist and grifter who is probably worth a fraction of what he claims and -oh by the way- is incapable of telling the truth about anything. He should have stayed under his rock. There is no way this fiasco is going to improve his situation at all.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

The NowCast tells you who would win if the election were held today.

Am I the only one who thinks that's a stupid premise for a projection? The election will be held on 11/8, no sooner, no later.
posted by indubitable at 4:20 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

When the inevitable books and documentaries are made, I really hope they manage to interview some people inside the campaign.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

If not then what is his end goal?

To funnel $100 million dollars into his failing business empire. Trump's razor.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [40 favorites]

I know this is all very fun and it makes for a great joke, but sooner or later I would like to know what the hell is going on. Is this a serious campaign or a clown show? Does Trump believe that campaigning only in states nearest his home is a viable strategy? or is it just easier? And if he is doing it because it is easier than why is he doing it all? Wouldn't it be better to just stay home and tweet shit and hold press conferences?

Trump has a secret state strategy which is just a slightly modified version of the thousand island dressing 50 state strategy.

Apparently he's going to win New England except for Taxachusetts.
posted by Talez at 4:22 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

More than once, I have seen guys with the I'm A Business Man And I Say What's On My Mind personality type faced with a situation with absolutely no good outcomes for them and their way of handling it is to floor the gas pedal and enthusiastically lean into whatever disaster of their own making they're heading towards. That's basically what I assume is going on with Trump at this point.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:22 PM on August 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

I do that when I'm actually driving and miss a turn, because SURELY SPEEDING UP AND GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION FASTER will help.
posted by infinitywaltz at 4:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Okay, then I guess my confusion IS the difference between Polls and Polls Plus, since assumption of tightening seems to be what the factors of Polls Plus basically are.

My understanding is that Polls Plus adjusts the polls with things that have historically been factors, like "The incumbent party has an advantage when the economy is good and a disadvantage when the economy is bad," or "Mississippi always votes Republican" or "After one party has been in power for two terms it's harder for them to get a third term."
posted by Jeanne at 4:25 PM on August 10, 2016

Now I know who he reminds me of: the Trashcan Man

My life for you, trumpty-trump!
posted by octobersurprise at 4:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Giuliani was just on Chris Matthews insisting that only 10% of Clinton Foundation funds went to actual causes and the rest was pocketed by the Clintons. I know it's just one of those talking points that gets repeated so it "must be true", but isn't it also easily disproven?
posted by Sophie1 at 4:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ah, thank you, Jeanne. And thanks, potato planet, for the link, but holy CRAP is that a lot of information that I don't understand.
posted by tzikeh at 4:27 PM on August 10, 2016

To funnel $100 million dollars into his failing business empire. Trump's razor.

Well of course I have wondered about that except that he did forgive the first $50 million he loaned the campaign so he will have to pull in $150 million in funds and then only spend it on his own enterprises. I don't see that working. I will be curious about the next FEC report because supposedly he got $86 million in donations at the beginning of this month.

I guess this will become a clearer picture in about October. If he is still raising large sums but not spending it on anything except expenses and his own businesses then we will know for sure he was never a serious candidate but only in it for the money. And I would love to be in the room when Reince Priebus and Paul Ryan discover they have been carrying water for Trump so that he could ruin their party by lining his own pockets.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:28 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

but isn't it also easily disproven?

What is it Twain said? Something like "a lie can travel half way around the world while MSNBC is worrying about what stories 18-34 year old affluent whites are interested in?"
posted by tonycpsu at 4:28 PM on August 10, 2016 [42 favorites]

Okay, then I guess my confusion IS the difference between Polls and Polls Plus, since assumption of tightening seems to be what the factors of Polls Plus basically are.

Polls Plus includes things like the state of the economy.

The NowCast tells you who would win if the election were held today.

Am I the only one who thinks that's a stupid premise for a projection? The election will be held on 11/8, no sooner, no later.

My understanding is that they agree, and only include that because everyone asks for it.

More than you wanted to know about all of 538's models
posted by dfan at 4:29 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I know is just one of those talking points that gets repeated so it "must be true", but isn't it also easily disproven?

Well here's an article on factcheck which takes a fuck of a long time to say:

Considering all of the organizations affiliated with the Clinton Foundation, he said, CharityWatch concluded about 89 percent of its budget is spent on programs. That’s the amount it spent on charity in 2013, he said.

We looked at the consolidated financial statements (see page 4) and calculated that in 2013, 88.3 percent of spending was designated as going toward program services — $196.6 million out of $222.6 million in reported expenses.

posted by nom de poop at 4:29 PM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

isn't it also easily disproven?

Not if you reject all contradictory sources on principle.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:30 PM on August 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Didn't Trump at some point state something along the lines of "I could run for POTUS and still turn a profit."?

If so, then it appears to me that that is what he is doing. He can always say that he never said anything about winning the election and still turning a profit.

Or maybe he is in such dire financial straights that this a just a straight up cash grab to prop himself up for a while, as is suggested above.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 4:31 PM on August 10, 2016

If the election were today, whoever is winning in the latest polls would win, almost certainly. The only uncertainty comes from the imperfection of your polling data -- each poll has a margin of error, and not all states have been polled recently. But the now-cast can still be pretty damn confident of who would win if the election were right now, based on the latest polling.

Now imagine the election was still a year away (Argh! No!). A year out, it's hard to know much of anything with any kind of certainty. So no matter what the polls are saying a year out, you'd be prudent to put the odds at close to 50-50. Anything could happen.

I'm pretty sure the "polls only" model starts by assuming the odds are 50-50 initially, before the campaigns begin, but then weights those odds by a factor related to how well the candidate is currently polling. The closer you get to the election, the more the polling data counts. So the "polls only" odds start to look less like 50-50 and more like the now-cast the closer you get to the election. But you're still splitting the difference somewhat between that fundamental uncertainty ("who knows what might happen?") and what the polls are telling you. Polls only will always lie somewhere between 50-50 and the nowcast, starting close to 50-50 and ending up identical to the nowcast on election day.

Polls plus doesn't start with 50-50. It says we know things based on history that give one side or the other an advantage. So before any polls come in we think the Republicans had a 60% chance of winning, say. But then as you get polling data, you adjust that number, so it doesn't stay 60%, it gets more heavily tilted toward what the latest polls say, until on election day it's the same as the nowcast.

At least, I think that's how it works. The non "now-cast" models just take into account the uncertainty associated with predicting the future, and make more conservative predictions. That might be a little oversimplified, but that's my basic understanding. You don't need to assume that polling data will trend one way or the other, just that it won't necessarily stay the same, so don't be too confident with any of your predictions.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:31 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I know this is all very fun and it makes for a great joke, but sooner or later I would like to know what the hell is going on. Is this a serious campaign or a clown show?

It is a serious campaign, I think, but run by people who are basically inexperienced and inept. And corrupt, too, like Trump's Putinophile campaign manager, Paul Manafort, who seems to be in this for the economic opportunities presented by getting access to Russian oligarch money. Legitimate Rs and their operatives have washed their hands. I also think Trump isn't really interested in seeing all that lovely money wasted on things like media buys, and the RNC as usual is not being careful stewards of the carloads they've raised for him. On top of everything else, no one can control Trump, who is a really narcissistic sociopath imho.
posted by bearwife at 4:34 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Really? Connecticut is in play?

Okay: Connecticut is basically a deeply weird place that just covers it really, really well.

Down in the southwest bits, you have the big mega-corporations in the woods, and all the towns where the guys who work on Wall Street actually live with their families. Along the coast you also have the big high-tech defense contractors. You also have some big financial headquarters. Towards the middle-west, it starts getting into the Berkshires, which has a little more of an aging-hippie-arty vibe. As you go east, along the coast you still hae a lot of bedroom communities along Metro-North for New York workers, with things getting more scruffy and rundown the further you get from New York. Along the river down the middle, you've got the middle-executive types at all the Hartford insurance companies or the professors at Yale. And in the northeast, the furthest you can get from New York, you've got mostly farms and small former textile towns. And the whole state is about three hours' drive across, tops.

So you've got a town with super-rich mansions and yacht clubs and prep schools a half days' drive from, and in the same state as, a town that was once a major trading hub for heroin dealers in New England. Yale is under an hour by train from the headquarters of ESPN and WWF. In my own hometown, I personally knew people in both the John Birch Society and the Communist Party. And yet everyone is so good at personal repression that someone from Connecticut was dubbed the most "average" person in the country, and even the very weather doesn't do anything unusual. I used to amuse myself by playing a type of word-association game with college friends, only using the states - because when I then tossed out "Connecticut", absoutely nothing popped into anyone's head.

This election is just weird enough that Connecticut could turn out to be the major battleground state, and if it does, you would be amazed at the level of freak that y'all never knew about that is gonna come out.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [37 favorites]

When the inevitable books and documentaries are made, I really hope they manage to interview some people inside the campaign.

I'm definitely looking forward to the Game Change for this election cycle, especially if they put bewildered gape-mouthed Woody Harrelson in the movie this time, too.
posted by phunniemee at 4:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

(Well, polls plus doesn't just start from a number other than 50-50, it also does take into account convention bumps and the tendency of polls to tighten and etc.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:37 PM on August 10, 2016

The Trump children are largely responsible for the campaign as well. They've been playing at "businesses" and "foundations" their whole lives. So it's natural that they thought they could play at politics as well. Their complete lack of experience has never been a barrier to anything they've ever done before, so why should it be now??
posted by yesster at 4:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Ah, thank you, Jeanne. And thanks, potato planet, for the link, but holy CRAP is that a lot of information that I don't understand.

Nowcast takes recent polls and runs a shitload of pretend elections in each state using the information from those polls. Then it looks at what percentage of pretend elections Clinton won.

Polls-only takes the nowcast except for every pretend election it also generates a set of random shit that happens between now and election day, so the polls it bases the pretend elections on are not the actual recent polls.

Polls-plus tweaks each of the fake elections with information beyond polls.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:40 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

hey! Didn't you watch the DNC, Connecticut is the home of the original Pizza and Hamburger.

And Lyme Disease.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:40 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I started to ponder that Hillary Clinton car coffin thing and then my brain broke. So I'll be with Advil.
posted by corb at 4:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

secret life of gravy, according to the former Communications Director of the Make America Great Again Super PAC, Trump never intended nor expected to become the Republican nominee (oops) and certainly not president. So let's all make sure he doesn't become president. As we plan to, etc.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Seen on Twitter: Sarah @allofmilov
Maybe 19th amendment people can do something about Trump.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:42 PM on August 10, 2016 [46 favorites]

Seriously though, what the fuck is the Trump campaign doing? They can't be this incompetent.

They appear to have three pollsters when I've googled. First, Kellyann Conway of The Polling Company Inc. Rated B by 538, she seems to be wheeled out to talk about womens issues. Second, Tony Fabrizzio - Bob Dole's chief pollster. Also Rick Perry's former chief pollster - and apparently one of the people behind the Willie Horton advert, and seems to be pure smears and offence. And finally John McLaughlin - someone so incompetent the GOP warns against using him; he was Eric Cantor's pollster and released a poll two weeks before the election that was a spectacular 46 points off.
posted by Francis at 4:42 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

This election is just weird enough that Connecticut could turn out to be the major battleground state, and if it does, you would be amazed at the level of freak that y'all never knew about that is gonna come out.

This is precisely why anyone who talks about their ability to cast a protest vote because they live in a "swing state" needs to re-examine their assumptions. I do not currently see a scenario where Wyoming or New York are going to be competitive states, but this election's been anomalous enough on just about every axis that I don't think anyone should be taking anything for granted.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

The Trump children are largely responsible for the campaign as well. They've been playing at "businesses" and "foundations" their whole lives. So it's natural that they thought they could play at politics as well. Their complete lack of experience has never been a barrier to anything they've ever done before, so why should it be now??

I wonder if the Trumps are a typical story of the downfall of generational wealth. 1st gen builds the empire, 2nd gen is more or less a caretaker as things start to crumble, 3rd gen are clueless spoiled bums who do basically nothing productive.
posted by indubitable at 4:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

Giuliani was just on Chris Matthews insisting that only 10% of Clinton Foundation funds went to actual causes and the rest was pocketed by the Clintons. I know it's just one of those talking points that gets repeated so it "must be true", but isn't it also easily disproven?

I expect we're going to hear a lot more about the Clinton Foundation in the coming months from both the alt-left and the alt-right.

Here's a pretty thorough debunking of the "only 10%" claim:

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/06/where-does-clinton-foundation-money-go/

FactCheck.org ultimately estimates that about 80-90% of the money goes to actual charity.

They explain that The Clinton Foundation can be tricky to rate because unlike a lot of charities they do a bunch of work themselves, rather than donating money to other organizations.

Charity Navigator has stopped rating them because their ratings rely on performance over time and The Clinton Foundation's business model has changed dramatically in recent years which makes that impossible.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 4:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

As I was watching the updates on a man scaling Trump Tower with suction cups scroll by, all I could think was, "this is an election thread. about the election. for president of the united states. one of the candidates got a stern talking to from the secret service for a dogwhistle assassination threat against the other candidate yesterday. and now some guy named steve (not one of the 5 steve's on Trump's economic team) is climbing up Trump tower. whatever. this is how we live now I guess. maybe I should lift my moratorium on weeknight drinking."

I'm 5000% going to need some sort of "I SURVIVED THE 2016 ELECTION THREADS ON METAFILTER" memorabilia.
posted by yasaman at 4:50 PM on August 10, 2016 [86 favorites]

MetaFilter: clueless spoiled bums who do basically nothing productive
posted by kirkaracha at 4:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Didn't Trump at some point state something along the lines of "I could run for POTUS and still turn a profit."?

Yes he did and several of us in these threads have followed the money story assiduously.

He started the campaign by loaning himself (loan not gift) $50 million. For most of the primary season that seemed to be all the money his campaign had-- nobody was donating money to him because he boasted he was self-funding and he had $10 billion. Once the primaries were over the original $50 million had to either be paid back or forgiven. He forgave the loan but at the end of May he only had $1.5 million in the war chest. In June he put some effort into fund raising and loaned himself another $2 million as part of an e-mail fund-raising scheme ("I'll match your donations up to $2 million.") He managed to raise something like $35 million. July has been reportedly better, although we won't know this for a fact until the FEC figures are released for July.

The question is will he continue to raise these big sums but continue to have so little to show for it. Is he going to end up with a surplus of funds in November? No serious candidate has ever done that. Even Obama had to spend the first three years in office paying down his campaign debts.

That's why I said it will be a month or so before we know for sure that he is really just in it for the donations.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:52 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

sooner or later I would like to know what the hell is going on. Is this a serious campaign or a clown show?

[leon] Always clown show. [/leon]

I expect he's trying to win but just isn't very good at it and is too much of an arrogant fuckwit to listen to anyone else about how to do it.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:53 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh I can't wait to hear about all these "prominent women" who will be joining his economic team. I wonder if Meredith will be drafted to serve.

I hope no one called Meredith gets named because there would be a chance of me being so mirthfully astounded that I would wet myself
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

WaPo We don’t know when Donald Trump is joking

We simply can’t tell when the candidate is joking. At times it’s reminiscent of alt-comedy, when the punch line isn’t so obvious. And this uncertainty can allow Trump surrogates and supporters to portray a shocking statement, after the fact, as Trump “just joking.”[...]

“One thing that usually is present in most comedy is that you know it’s comedy,” says stand-up comedian Myq Kaplan. [...] even with a traditional setup and punch line “the whole context in which it’s contained is a comedy show,” where people are expecting to hear jokes — unlike at a political rally.

Tone and cadence amplify and can make or break a joke. Trump’s quips can come in the middle of his stump speeches or policy proposals, when it’s harder to detect the intended humor, especially since he uses sarcasm so often.[...]

Is it the audience’s responsibility to know whether a statement is a joke or not? Gold says no: “It’s always on the comedian.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:00 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oh I can't wait to hear about all these "prominent women" who will be joining his economic team

Surely the tomahawk arm choppy pyramid scheme lady from the RNC.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:00 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

tivalasvegas: literally just spit ginger ale all over my dog.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:02 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Once the primaries were over the original $50 million had to either be paid back or forgiven. He forgave the loan but at the end of May he only had $1.5 million in the war chest.

Did he? I recall TPM reporting that he hadn't filed the papers with the FEC forgiving the loan... Which means that a significant chunk of whatever he gets in the next 3 months will go to paying him back, or so I expect.

I certainly do not expect Trump to come out of this having lost money. That is not how he rolls, and he'll say whatever it takes.
posted by suelac at 5:04 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

A question for anyone who's been to any of the official volunteering phonebanking type events for Hillary: do you have to show up at the exact time the event is listed as starting, or is it more of a rolling window type thing? I see a couple events that do say you have to be there promptly, but none of the others mention it.
posted by yasaman at 11:49 AM on August 10 [+] [!]

I haven't yet volunteered for Hillary but I have been the staffer running these phonebanks for other campaigns and I think most people running these would rather you show up late than not at all. That said, there's always going to be some training time at the beginning and it takes people a bit to get up to speed, so if you're not going to be there for at least two hours it may not be worth it. If there's contact info I would just email/call and ask - otherwise just go when you can. Especially if you plan on volunteering more than once. And if you bring treats, all will be forgiven. :)
posted by lunasol at 5:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

metafilter: literally just spit ginger ale all over my dog
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Something about yesterday's comments slammed home the horror of Trump more than any of his other awful utterances... I think I've followed every election thread since the RNC and I must agree with everyone who says it's these election threads that somehow pull one through. prize bull octorok's and T.D. Strange's "stevemoot" riffs had me laughing hysterically, which has helped, a bit, to take the edge off.
posted by Slothrop at 5:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Did he? I recall TPM reporting that he hadn't filed the papers with the FEC forgiving the loan

He did. The complete FEC reports for June that were due on July 20 showed his campaign had no outstanding debts (i.e. personal loans had been cancelled).
posted by peeedro at 5:08 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The question is will he continue to raise these big sums but continue to have so little to show for it. Is he going to end up with a surplus of funds in November? No serious candidate has ever done that. Even Obama had to spend the first three years in office paying down his campaign debts.

I wonder if we get a showdown with the FEC with Trump saying "I raised the money, I can use it however I want!"

With the ramshackle current makeup of the FEC he'd probably get away with it too.
posted by Talez at 5:08 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

literally just spit ginger ale all over my dog

A hard campaign promise to deliver.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:11 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

[leon] Always clown show. [/leon]

Possibly the only way Trump could be scarier is if he spent the rest of the campaigning in full clown get-up.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:14 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Some Unexpected Cosplay At A Recent Donald Trump Rally
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Is it the audience’s responsibility to know whether a statement is a joke or not? Gold says no: “It’s always on the comedian.”

God how I wish Gold had said "clown" instead of "comedian."
posted by infinitewindow at 5:17 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Meanwhile, in Cruzland: "Wow, a cow made of butter."

Damn you, Ted Cruz, for behaving in a vaguely but charmingly human way.
posted by jackbishop at 5:19 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

If he is still raising large sums but not spending it on anything except expenses and his own businesses

All of a sudden today I'm being bombarded with Trump Twitter ads. Maybe that's his big push?
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh he's having a push, alright.
posted by indubitable at 5:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

HA - apparently Mark Foley is seated behind Trump at the rally right now. What IS it with presidential campaigns seating remarkably inappropriate people right behind their candidates this week?!
posted by acidic at 5:28 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

You know, Mark Foley is a tool, but with all the shit going on, I can't think of anything less scandalous and newsworthy in this political cycle than who is sitting visibly in anyones rally unless it's someone like Pope Francis, red faced and screaming "LOCK HER UP!"
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I wonder if we get a showdown with the FEC with Trump saying "I raised the money, I can use it however I want!"

With the ramshackle current makeup of the FEC he'd probably get away with it too

I wrote a research paper way back in the eighties on PACs which had really just taken off and I was surprised to discover that legislators could build up huge war chests for their re-election campaigns and then when they retired, they could take the money with them. I don't know if that has changed. I do know that Sarah Palin has lived for years on her Election donations. She pretends to run for President and then pulls out early having spent very little but received quite a lot from her fans.

Trump ending up with unspent money which he then walks off with is the only way I can figure he will make a profit. Yes, he is probably paying wildly inflated sums to himself for the use of his cars, jet, hotels, etc. but I don't see that as equal to $50 million yet. If he loses while having $100 million left unspent, his donors will finally know the truth about him.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:48 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

In a eerie (and pretty scary) bit of resonance with the article she wrote, Katy Tur is now tweeting that Trump is actively working the crowd in Florida into an anti-media lather and that they're starting to get violent with protesters.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:52 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's getting worse:

Trump crowd in sunrise FL has changed their "lock her up" chants to "lock them up," referring to the press, after Trump criticizing press
posted by zombieflanders at 5:55 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Cue NPR hand-wringing over whether or not they really should be locked up.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [98 favorites]

Trump rallies are going to become less and less safe for anyone vague "other" as this goes on. If you were thinking about checking it out for the lolz...please don't. We'll be lucky to get to November without someone getting killed.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, I'm really not sure why you'd choose to go to a Trump rally unless to find out how badly you'll get beaten and hope it's caught on camera and that people care.
posted by uosuaq at 6:06 PM on August 10, 2016

Trump crowd in sunrise FL has changed their "lock her up" chants to "lock them up," referring to the press, after Trump criticizing press

Jules For Trump ‏@JulesSiscoe 14 minutes ago
@NoahGrayCNN The press should be arrested for spreading propaganda instead of reporting unbiased news.

Jesus Christ they're just willingly hopping on board the fascism train. I weep for this country.
posted by Talez at 6:06 PM on August 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

For what it's worth I have an acquaintance who's a minority woman reporter who covered the RNC and had a blast, no issue reported.
posted by zutalors! at 6:07 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump crowd in sunrise FL has changed their "lock her up" chants to "lock them up"

See, ok, the "lock her up" thing was shitty and evil in a thousand different ways but at the very least its a logical extension of thirty years of Republican dirty tricks and slanders aimed at Clinton. I mean, if you're convincing your supporters for two generations that your political opponent is a criminal, the next logical step is that they should be in jail.

Suggested that the press should be locked up because they printed negative stories about Trump manages to be like a hair more shitty and evil because there's not even a logical basis for it. The press hasn't done anything illegal. They've not even been accused of doing anything other than being unfair to Hair Fuhrer. As Talez said, this is straight up fascism.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:10 PM on August 10, 2016 [30 favorites]

...which is, of course, the whole selling point of Trump's campaign.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:10 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump holding up series of old school 2x3' graphs on foam board to cheers and cheers and cheers.
posted by mochapickle at 6:11 PM on August 10, 2016

Trump crowd in sunrise FL has changed their "lock her up" chants to "lock them up," referring to the press, after Trump criticizing press

Trump is going to be surprised to discover that if you get antagonistic enough with the media, they'll refuse to cover your events from up close. And Trump can yell all he wants about "corrupt lying media;" if mainstream TV channels only cover Clinton's election activities in detail, with a blip of "Oh, Trump held a rally in [state] and 1500 people attended; no injuries were reported," his poll ratings will plummet even faster.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:12 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

So... just how does stEvan McMullin intend to get on the ballots around the republic?

Weekly Standard : How Evan McMullin Plans to Overcome Ballot Access Hurdles

Those overseas raise some rather frank points about "McMullin-Mentum" :

The Guardian : Evan McWho isn't the guy to save us from Trump's evil grip
posted by PROD_TPSL at 6:13 PM on August 10, 2016

So Trump finally noticed Seddique Mateen. Sons of the son transfer to the father apparently. I guess the religion is purely coincidental.
posted by Talez at 6:13 PM on August 10, 2016

I think it would be great if the press started talking about Trump rallies like thunderstorms; just a thing that happens, some are bigger than others, fortunately the one last night involved no injuries and only minor property damage.
posted by nickmark at 6:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

So we'd take shelter and spin up the civil defense alarm in advance of his rallies? Actually, that sounds about right...
posted by MysticMCJ at 6:17 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

We're going to build safe havens in Syria and the gulf states are going to pay for it!
posted by Talez at 6:17 PM on August 10, 2016

So... just how does stEvan McMullin intend to get on the ballots around the republic?

If you order off the pick 2 menu you get twice the signatures
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Trump just said if you're sitting behind him at a speech, the campaign knows you're there Mark Foley is sitting behind him"
posted by Yowser at 6:19 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think it would be great if the press started talking about Trump rallies like thunderstorms;

It's feasible that the amount of hot air involved could actually create thunderstorms.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:19 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Honestly but uncharitably, I am starting to believe that Trump wants somebody to be killed at one of his rallies. Like he wants to know for sure he has that power.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:20 PM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Reuters just announced that Secret Service never spoke to me or my campaign. Made up story by @CNN is a hoax. Totally dishonest. [real]

Lemme understand this... Trump says CNN is lying, and we can know this is true because their competition says otherwise? He'd already personally denied that any such meeting took place, but apparently he knows people don't believe that, so he's pointing them to Reuters twitter.

Of course, what Reuters said is there had been no "formal" discussion. And they didn't bother posting an article about who they think was lying, or whether they're just trying to say "we have no evidence of any such talks."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump ending up with unspent money which he then walks off with is the only way I can figure he will make a profit.

Federal election rules prohibit using leftover campaign contributions for personal use. They can do three things with leftover money.
1). They can keep it in the bank indefinitely in case they want to run for office in the future.
2). They can donate it to other campaigns or PACs.
3). They can donate it to charity.

They can't spend the money themselves.
posted by JackFlash at 6:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump doesn't like Hillary's temperament. SHE'S A LOSER! He prides himself on his temperament.

Jesus fuck.
posted by Talez at 6:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Of course there's been no formal discussion. There's no need for one - Trump has a Secret Service bodyguard who probably told him "Cut that shit out" the second he stepped off the platform. You have formal discussions with people you need to schedule meetings with.
posted by Francis at 6:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

You know what pisses me off about Trump talking about ISIS deaths? A lot of them are because they're gay and Trump's off to an anti-gay event.
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on August 10, 2016

now would be a great time for the B-Sharps to have an impromptu rooftop reunion concert

It's been done. *drives away*
posted by Servo5678 at 6:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

3). They can donate it to charity.

Trump has a shitload of "foundations" to funnel the money back through.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

okay folks, for real
what's the over/under that trump knows what the word "temperament" means
posted by murphy slaw at 6:27 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

They can't spend the money themselves.

Last days of campaign turn into Brewster's Millions style orgy of Trump steak consumption.
posted by Artw at 6:29 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Speaking of money, check out this report on the Trump campaign's use of free photos.
posted by Bella Donna at 6:30 PM on August 10, 2016

David Uberti for Columbia Journalism Review: "Why Donald Trump can kinda, sorta say anything he wants"

The reality TV star’s genius lies in a simple trick: He raises ideas while at the same time distancing himself from them just enough to deflect criticism. He establishes some measure of plausible deniability—at least for those who take his statements at face value. Many voters see through this rhetorical ballet, but it poses problems for mainstream news organizations bound by journalistic norms.
...
Trump does his dance, dripping spray-tan-colored paint over the American political canvas in a campaign of abstract expressionism. It’s up to reporters to derive meaning from words Trump himself implies are meaningless. A steady hand will be key in deciphering Trump’s intentions going forward. His campaign is faltering, and it’s likely that he will only flail more violently as it continues struggling to settle into an autumn rhythm.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:32 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

trump just went full Perot at his latest rally. But with screen grabs from Fox News.
posted by codacorolla at 6:35 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I, too, use the Steel background theme in Excel with a 20 degree tilt.
posted by Yowser at 6:38 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

It appears that folks are losing patience (about time!) with the Trump surrogates on television. Kayleigh McEnany was just raked over the coals in rather angry fashion on CNN.
posted by Justinian at 6:38 PM on August 10, 2016

You can have background themes in Excel?!?!?!?!

oh boy oh boy oh boy
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:40 PM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

You might even suspect that making threats against the press might be a... courageous media strategy

It's certainly a great motivational aid to nailing that fucker down but good, sources close to a journalist revealed tonight. The greatest.
posted by Devonian at 6:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I understand the desire to protest at Trump rallies. He's terrible; it's natural to feel like it would be bad to stand around letting him be terrible with no pushback.

But it feeds him. I mean, never mind that one of these days, a protester is going to be very badly hurt (it strikes me as a bad sign that the spectators have taken to pouring their drinks on protestors): it doesn't even accomplish what the protesters are ostensibly trying to accomplish. It doesn't shame him. It doesn't cause him to be better. It doesn't change his audience's minds. It doesn't get one publicity for one's cause. It doesn't increase his chances of losing the election.

If you're in the United States and have a yearning to waste a whole day doing something that includes a small-to-medium chance of being assaulted, you have better options, is I guess what I'm saying.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:42 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

You can have background themes in Excel?!?!?!?!

oh boy oh boy oh boy

Oh crap oh crap oh crap
posted by dirigibleman at 6:45 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Re. the press, here's a funny joke from December 2015
posted by theodolite at 6:46 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

shit, I googled "excel background themes +dinosaur" and: nothing!
2016 is just the worst year.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

So just to summarize today:

• Made threats against the press,
• Had Mark Foley give him a ringing endorsement and sit behind him literally as he was hammering Clinton about Mateen,
• Called the president and the Secretary of State the literal founders of ISIS,
• Printed screen grabs of Fox News out and then yelled incoherently at them.

Good pivot. 89 days to go.
posted by codacorolla at 6:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

(it strikes me as a bad sign that the spectators have taken to pouring their drinks on protestors)

That's assault and battery - to keep it from escalating, cops should be stepping in at this point.

If it grows to serious violence and people getting injured, it won't be because "it just got worse;" it'll be because there were obvious, identifiable small instances of violence - and the police ignored the laws in the name of "boys will be boys" and "politics as usual."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Really as a non-believer, this cross business is so weird to me. What if Christ died for our sins in some other way, like roiling acid or leeches. Would we have leech art on our wall. Gah.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:49 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

A Russian cyberattack that targeted Democratic politicians was bigger than it first appeared and breached the private email accounts of more than 100 party officials and groups, officials with knowledge of the case said Wednesday.

I can't take this shit anymore.
posted by argybarg at 6:50 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Really as a non-believer, this cross business is so weird to me. What if Christ died for our sins in some other way, like roiling acid or leeches. Would we have leech art on our wall. Gah.

Yes, we would. BECAUSE OUR ENTIRE CULTURE WOULD BE DIFFERENT.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

What's worst case scenario with this email business? Lots of people are freakibg out about it on Twitter but will people really care?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:55 PM on August 10, 2016

for my mental health, i should look away, but I can't, i just can't.
posted by murphy slaw at 6:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Good pivot. 89 days to go.

See, that's the twist. He did pivot. For the worse.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:56 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The worst case? I suppose if there truly were some illegal dealings (very unlikely), or if the emails get faked into suggesting there were some illegal dealings.

If Hillary sent an email that sounds nasty or odd or has a clumsy phrasing that can be used against her we'll hear about until you want to jam chopsticks into your ear.

And of course the precedent of a foreign agency interfering with our elections is bad enough on its own, right?
posted by argybarg at 6:59 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

I honestly don't know how this can get weirder. Although I prefer weird to dangerous.
posted by mochapickle at 6:59 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

too bad this is weirder and more dangerous
posted by murphy slaw at 7:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm a little surprised that Russian interference in the election isn't being seen as a Big Fuckin Deal on the level of "accidentally" shooting down a plane or putting cameras in Obama's desk or something
posted by theodolite at 7:04 PM on August 10, 2016 [31 favorites]

I am dying laughing at his speech about Mateen's father sitting behind Hillary and how therefore she is clearly a monster, while unknowingly(?) gesturing behind him at Mark Foley, the Sexter of Congressional Pages. This has to be scripted.
posted by gatorae at 7:04 PM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump could've made it clear his assassination gag was a joke by adding a rimshot:

"If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people—maybe there is, I don’t know. Ba-dum-tss.”

Hiyoooo! Totally funny!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Welp. 89 more days.

After the Olympics I would like to be cryogenically frozen. I leave this in your hands.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

You might even suspect that making threats against the press might be a... courageous media strategy.

"I never quarrel with a man who buys ink by the barrel." -- Charles Brownson
posted by kirkaracha at 7:08 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

New $5 Bumper Sticker: Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope
posted by cashman at 7:08 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Lots of people are freakibg out about it on Twitter

This statement is applicable to approximately 97% of all events, occurrences and happenings.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:11 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

More than once, I have seen guys with the I'm A Business Man And I Say What's On My Mind personality type faced with a situation with absolutely no good outcomes for them and their way of handling it is to floor the gas pedal and enthusiastically lean into whatever disaster of their own making they're heading towards. That's basically what I assume is going on with Trump at this point.


Pulled this from a ways back just to say: I am hoping that one good thing to come out of the Trump shitshow is to finally drive a stake through the heart of the idea that "the government should be run like a business." Good grief do I despise that sentiment. Citizens are not customers or employees, and elected leaders sure as fuck aren't entrepreneurs or CEOs.
posted by Sublimity at 7:11 PM on August 10, 2016 [51 favorites]

Second that the Mark Foley thing has to be scripted. It's just too insane to think of the alternative.
posted by Yowser at 7:11 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

okay I'm gonna catch up with this thread here in a minute, but I thought maybe y'all would like a tiny bit of an update from the ground-- obviously there is only so much I can say, but basically they are treating me like an intern, even if I'm not official yet.

A conversation I had today with my field organizer-- I am his unofficial intern.

Me: "I mean what would I even say? 'I haven't left. I live here now.'"

Him: "Yes. We have taken you in."

You guys. I would follow this dude, these people, into actual battle, with swords and horses and whatnot. I am so looking forward to the next 90 days. Which is very strange, I realize, because this crazy train just keeps getting crazier, but I get to fight it. And how often in life do you actually get to fight actual evil? I am so lucky.

Find your local offices. Go volunteer. Your experience will probably not be my experience, but it's the most rewarding thing I can think of doing right now.
posted by dogheart at 7:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [74 favorites]

Trump's Razor would indicate that it is unscripted. That is the stupidest possibility.
posted by indubitable at 7:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I am hoping that one good thing to come out of the Trump shitshow is to finally drive a stake through the heart of the idea that "the government should be run like a business."

sadly, i fear it will persist until a successful businessman fails at it
posted by murphy slaw at 7:14 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

2016: has to be scripted. It's just too insane to think of the alternative.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:17 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I mean, the NAMBLA thing was completely stupid, but add in the Mark Foley thing and just... god, what the fuck is happening.
posted by gatorae at 7:22 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump's Razor would indicate that it is unscripted. That is the stupidest possibility.

I'm pretty skeptical that Trump even knows who Mark Foley is, let alone giving enough of a shit about him to use this information in some sort of plan. His staff doesn't seem much more knowledgeable or crafty than he is, either.
posted by Copronymus at 7:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Kirkpatrick Links McCain to Trump: Actually Kirkpatrick ties Trump to McCain like an anchor and dumps him overboard.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

I'm pretty skeptical that Trump even knows who Mark Foley is, let alone giving enough of a shit about him to use this information in some sort of plan. His staff doesn't seem much more knowledgeable or crafty than he is, either.

Mark Foley just said in an interview that he's known Trump for 30 years. Katy Tur on Trump's contributions to Foley.
posted by mochapickle at 7:30 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

McCain looks absolutely lost in that ad. I've donated and really hope she wins.
posted by wallabear at 7:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

he looks like a goddamn ringwraith. like his soul's been ripped right out of him.
posted by murphy slaw at 7:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Some of Trump's fuckups, like this one, just make me hear the Super Mario Bros lost-life tune in my head and see the sad little sprite leap off the screen. But he's on a Game Genie and he can do this again, and again, and -
posted by Countess Elena at 7:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Are you saying Trump can rewind time.
posted by Yowser at 7:39 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

i honestly can't tell whether anything that trump does will be perceived as a fuckup or not anymore. it seems like an endless chain lightining of fuckups to me but his crowds love it and the media just harrumphs. he's a virus our culture has no antibodies against.
posted by murphy slaw at 7:39 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

ah hahaha hahahahahahahah So all of the Cleveland apocalypse predictions were bugging me the whole time and Stephen Colbert put his finger on exactly why

We knew this was gonna happen, but there was supposed to be a floor fight, right? There was supposed to be chaos! Bikers chain-whipping the rules committee, Ted Cruz trying to cut out Reince Priebus' eyeball with a broken bottle! We were promised excitement! But none of that happened. They voted, he got in ... that's it.

[disappointed noises from the audience]

It felt like a lot of people were predicting that shit because they wanted to see it
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Are you saying Trump can rewind time.

Well, he can turn it back. And that's why Cher hates him.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 7:41 PM on August 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

For my mental health, I should stay away from all news about the campaign until it's over, and I mean that. But I'm not going to be able to stop reading these threads. It's bad for me, but I really can't stay away.
posted by tzikeh at 7:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

I wish Hunter Thompson was still alive, to write about all this. Jesus, it would be such an easy gig for him. He could make up absolutely anything about this election, and it wouldn't sound too far-fetched.
posted by KHAAAN! at 7:46 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

I was thinking the same thing, tzikeh. Maybe we should start some sort of support group? (I still want to help Hillary, though. So maybe a filter instead of a full block.)
posted by mochapickle at 7:47 PM on August 10, 2016

It felt like a lot of people were predicting that shit because they wanted to see it

Yeah. I wanted a significant enough group of Republicans to stand up at their convention and say, we will do whatever we can to derail this man's candidacy of our party -- to at least cause more than a two-day media story, if not to actually stop him.

I wanted the leaders of the oldest extant political party in this country to say, yes, we are willing to tear our party in two for the good of the country and for the ideal of equal protection of the laws', the ideal on which our party was founded.

We will put our reputations and our bodies (or, if you like, our lives and our sacred honor) on this.

Instead they bravely bent the knee.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

I wanted the leaders of the oldest extant political party in this country to say, yes, we are willing to tear our party in two for the good of the country

The Repubs are the junior party.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:50 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

If HST was still alive, this campaign would kill him because he would realize that Reality had finally outstripped his imagination.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:51 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Yes, what creative liberties would make this election MORE absurd?
posted by snofoam at 7:53 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

But Steadman's drawings from the convention floor would have been wicked!
posted by Windopaene at 7:54 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh my skies people stop taunting the 2016 scriptwriter (whoever they are)
posted by seyirci at 7:55 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yes, what creative liberties would make this election MORE absurd?

Reporter: "What do you say to those who call you a crypto-fascist?"
Trump: "Well I admired Mussolini. He was a strong leader. The trains in Italy were on time because the drivers couldn't strike. Some people say he's unfairly characterized in the history books and he never did any actual killing. And which countries weren't demolished by Germany? Italy was one of them and why? Because Mussolini was a great leader! He took care of his people!"

[fake] just in case.
posted by Talez at 7:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

lol like Donald Trump knows what "crypto-fascist" means.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:58 PM on August 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

Touché.
posted by Talez at 8:00 PM on August 10, 2016

lol like Donald Trump knows what "crypto-fascist" means.

He thinks it's a Trump property like Mar-a-Lago. The Cryp-to-Fascist Club and Resort.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:02 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Someone mentioned Google results earlier, and I have to admit I never use any Google services for anything, except when I search "Trump failure" "Trump clown" etc. Doing my part.
posted by bongo_x at 8:05 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

many people are saying that donald trump admires benito mussolini!
posted by murphy slaw at 8:11 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

why isn't anyone talking about the black guy in the lime green polo shirt rolling his eyes when Trump says Obama invented Isis?

Here's a video.

Like, how did that guy get there? What is happening?
posted by zutalors! at 8:16 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's gotten to the point where I'm fighting sleep because some sort of new surrealistic shit will hit the fan as soon as I'm out.

Sigh.
posted by wallabear at 8:18 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Mark Foley just said in an interview that he's known Trump for 30 years.
I'm sure they've traded a few phone numbers...
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:20 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Go to sleep, the thread will be waiting for you in the morning. With 248 New Comments, show.
posted by yasaman at 8:21 PM on August 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

Like, how did that guy get there? What is happening?

Dude also does not clap at any point. A+ trolling, my green-shirted friend. Would enjoy again.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:22 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Bella Donna: "Speaking of money, check out this report on the Trump campaign's use of free photos."

What a shit article. Older, traditional portrait photographers take so much joy in belittling Gage Skidmore. Yeah dudes, if your whole business model is being disrupted by a 23-year-old, then maybe it was on pretty shaky ground to begin with.

And his photo is better than the Getty one.
posted by roll truck roll at 8:22 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

248 New Comments, show

This is your working title for your horror movie/creepypasta, isn't it
posted by zutalors! at 8:22 PM on August 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Kirkpatrick Links McCain to Trump

McCain is being challenged from the right in his primary, his opponent aired an ad linking him to Hillary Clinton. The kicker is that she ripped off a Romney attack ad from 2008 and just put her name at the end.
posted by peeedro at 8:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Oh my skies people stop taunting the 2016 scriptwriter (whoever they are)
posted by seyirci at 7:55 PM on August 10 [3 favorites +] [!]

There's no scriptwriter. you're just being paranoid.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 8:23 PM on August 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

Like, how did that guy get there? What is happening?

Dude also does not clap at any point. A+ trolling, my green-shirted friend. Would enjoy again.

His eyerolls are on point. Why didn't he get interviewed like the white guy who looked shocked when Trump made the 2nd amendment comment? Seriously, black guy in bright green shirt throws eyeroll shade at Trump event, I want that story.
posted by zutalors! at 8:24 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

And yet Lime Green Shirt Guy did clap at the temperament comments. And then guffaw at Mexico funding the wall. I don't understand his game.
posted by mochapickle at 8:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't understand his game.

Actor? Paid to be a person of color sitting in view of the camera and applauding at key points? But can't quite control the eyerolls at the preposterous bullshittery?

I have no evidence to support this, but people are saying it's true, so...
posted by dersins at 8:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

believe me believe me
posted by zutalors! at 8:39 PM on August 10, 2016

And yet Lime Green Shirt Guy did clap at the temperament comments. And then guffaw at Mexico funding the wall. I don't understand his game.

Black people are perfectly capable of hating Mexicans. His campaign spokeswoman is a living embodiment of this philosophy.
posted by Talez at 8:42 PM on August 10, 2016

It was guffawing like, you've gotta be kidding me, there is no way you can get Mexico to pay for that.
posted by mochapickle at 8:43 PM on August 10, 2016

I'm hearing from some people, from some very reliable people, that green shirt guy might have been on the payroll. I'm just saying, it's what they've been saying, this is what we're dealing with here folks.
posted by Yowser at 8:43 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

248 new comments, show

Yes, it is moving pretty slowly at this point :)
posted by wallabear at 8:44 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Boy is Meredith going to be in trouble when her boss finds out that President Obama didn't actually found ISIS like Trump claimed in his speech tonight.

MEREDITH
posted by winna at 9:13 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

If you're gonna assert that Green Shirt Guy is some kind of actor being paid to sit behind Trump and be the token black guy at the rally, I'm gonna need a much better source than "I'm just saying, it's what they've been saying." If we're gonna start uncritically accepting that level of evidence, we'll end up believing all kinds of ridiculous crap. You're gonna have to do better than "some very reliable people." Are they the best people? Would I just not believe how reliable they are?

Come on, don't bring that sort of thing in here.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:19 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

I hope CNN puts Katy Tur on the Cannes Film Festival assignment after this. Or makes her their Hawaii correspondent or something nice.
posted by marxchivist at 9:22 PM on August 10, 2016 [27 favorites]

I'm pretty sure the Lime-Green-Shirt-Guy-As-Actor thing was intended as a joke. At least I think so.

The whole season is so bonkers it's hard to tell.
posted by mochapickle at 9:25 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well my initial question about lime shirt guy was genuine and I made no claim he was paid.
posted by zutalors! at 9:27 PM on August 10, 2016

I'm pretty sure the Lime-Green-Shirt-Guy-As-Actor thing was intended as a joke. At least I think so.

Read AOANLA,T's comment carefully...
posted by tonycpsu at 9:28 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

New suggested tags for election threads:

[real good faith analysis/speculation]
[fake analysis/speculation to deal with the total surreality of this godforsaken election idk i'm just swigging rum straight from the bottle]
[infected by Trump's memetic virus oh god IS THAT THE END GAME OF THIS ELECTION]
posted by yasaman at 9:30 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Read AOANLA,T's comment carefully...

Oh.

I think it's time for bed.
posted by mochapickle at 9:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you're gonna assert that Green Shirt Guy is some kind of actor being paid to sit behind Trump and be the token black guy at the rally, I'm gonna need a much better source than "I'm just saying, it's what they've been saying." Come on, don't bring that sort of thing in here.

Perhaps you are missing the sarcasm tag. Trump's well worn shtick is:

"People are saying that Obama isn't even an American. He was born in Kenya.
"People are saying that Obama cares more about Muslims than Christians."
"People are saying that Hillary Clinton had Vincent Foster murdered."
"People are saying that Ted Cruz's father was with Lee Harvey Oswald."
"People are saying that the Iranians killed a scientist because of Hillary's hacked emails."
"People are saying that I [Trump] should host Meet the Press."

And on and on.
posted by JackFlash at 9:34 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

idk i'm just swigging rum straight from the bottle

Pffft. We're all doing Franzia from the spigot yasaman, level the fuck up already.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:35 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Go to sleep, the thread will be waiting for you in the morning. With 248 New Comments, show.

And 5 new comments in last week's thread, just for the lolz.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:35 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yassaman, I am beginning to think that degradation of the credibility, coherency, and overall signal-to-noise ratio of public discourse will be the most lasting legacy of Trump's canidacy. I literally have no idea what's serious anymore and what's not. So much bullshit has been let slide, I feel like we're slipping helplessly downslope in a veritable river of it.

Put another way, the Overton window has been pushed so far in the direction of madness that we are at risk of losing our collective sanity.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Perhaps you are missing the sarcasm tag.

Oh my.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:36 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I feel like we're slipping helplessly downslope in a veritable river of (sh)it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:36 PM on August 10

FTFY
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 9:41 PM on August 10, 2016

I'm gonna need a much better source than "I'm just saying, it's what they've been saying." If we're gonna start uncritically accepting that level of evidence, we'll end up believing all kinds of ridiculous crap.

A lot of people are saying that this is a favorite rhetorical device of Drumpf's. Very reliable people tell me that bracketing an outrageous claim with these sorts of lazy, vague appeals to authority is enough to bat down most objections to his claims in the moment, and provide just enough deniability later if and when the outrageous claim blows up in his face - but that's just what people tell me, I don't know. But they're very good people, some say the best, and they say that facts are secondary to this sort of pitch, that in fact, facts are terrible and they've created some terrible problems for us in the past. Have facts ever helped you? You tell me.

Facts don't understand our feelings folks, I have to tell you. Terrible, I have to tell you, so terrible. They never tell you you're right, they never promise you revenge in the cadence that you like! But we'll have the best cadence, a welcoming cadence, a familiar cadence that can hypnotize even the people who find our words disgusting but we're not disgusting, they're the most disgusting!
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:42 PM on August 10, 2016 [111 favorites]

Clearly, this entire thread is looking for a 21st Amendment remedy at this point.
posted by zachlipton at 9:44 PM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

EatTheWeak, that's beautiful.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:47 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wow, Dan Quayle Potato[e] Trutherism is not a direction I expected this thread to go.

Imagine how Evan McMullin thought it was going to go.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:57 PM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yeah. I wanted a significant enough group of Republicans to stand up at their convention and say, we will do whatever we can to derail this man's candidacy of our party -- to at least cause more than a two-day media story, if not to actually stop him

Dude, I don't know what to say. We tried really, really hard, several hundred of us, including a sitting US Senator. I'm sorry we didn't succeed, but I promise you, it was not for lack of trying.
posted by corb at 10:00 PM on August 10, 2016 [84 favorites]

> [infected by Trump's memetic virus oh god IS THAT THE END GAME OF THIS ELECTION]

[real] I convinced my husband to watch Pontypool with me a couple nights ago by telling him it would make the election make more sense.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:02 PM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

And thanks for trying corb. You never know what good may come of your effort, or how.
posted by argybarg at 10:03 PM on August 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah. I wanted a significant enough group of Republicans to stand up at their convention and say, we will do whatever we can to derail this man's candidacy of our party -- to at least cause more than a two-day media story, if not to actually stop him

Dude, I don't know what to say. We tried really, really hard, several hundred of us, including a sitting US Senator. I'm sorry we didn't succeed, but I promise you, it was not for lack of trying.

Yeah, based on corb's on-the-ground reports it sounds like it would have been a very different story had it not been for the brownshirts yellowhats on the convention floor.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:04 PM on August 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Names I've called Evan McMullen while trying to remember his name:

Egg McMuffin (Thanks, Metafilter)
Edwin McMillion
Edward McMilton

but not once have I actually remembered the name Evan McMullen without referencing this thread. It hasn't really mattered, because nobody knew who the hell I was talking about anyways.

Which is to say that this is an awesome thread to keep discussion of all of the election insanity alive.
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:15 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow, Dan Quayle Potato[e] Trutherism is not a direction I expected this thread to go.

*leaps into the room*

Nobody expects Dan Quayle Potato Trutherism! Our chief weapon is surprise and spelling! Our two chief weapons are surprise, spelling, and low expectations. Our three! Three...

Never mind. Representatives Biggles and Fang, let's go back outside and start again.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

[real] I convinced my husband to watch Pontypool with me a couple nights ago by telling him it would make the election make more sense.

I'm not sure that's true but everybody should watch Pontypool.

PONTY

POOL

...
posted by Artw at 10:37 PM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Stop creeping me out, Artw.
posted by tzikeh at 10:39 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trumplypool

OR

Trumptypool
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:46 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump’s Big Gun Idea? Literally Stolen From Tim Kaine:

Indeed, Trump’s plan to Make America Great for Gun Owners Again leans heavily on Project Exile, a 1997 program Kaine implemented as mayor of Richmond, Virginia, that was aimed at driving down crime rates by elevating gun offenses to the tougher federal court system.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:46 PM on August 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

A question for anyone who's been to any of the official volunteering phonebanking type events for Hillary: do you have to show up at the exact time the event is listed as starting, or is it more of a rolling window type thing? I see a couple events that do say you have to be there promptly, but none of the others mention it.

I went to a phonebanking event at the local Clinton campaign hq yesterday. It was a rolling window, people were dropping in and out. I have made calls for Democratic candidates before, so I didn't need any training and was able to get started right away. If you have never done it before I would budget a little time to learn the process. It's pretty straightforward, though: they give you a script, a list of people to call, and a phone. The script has a few questions to ask (Can Hillary count on your support on election day?) and you enter the person's responses on the call list (Strong Clinton/Lean Clinton/Strong Trump/Lean Trump/Undecided).

Just about everyone I spoke to yesterday was VERY enthusiastic about voting for Hillary, and I got a few people willing to sign up as volunteers, too. One woman I spoke to told me, "I'm an old lady and for the first time in my life I donated to a political campaign to support Hillary--and I voted for Nixon!"
posted by joedan at 11:33 PM on August 10, 2016 [28 favorites]

I got a call from the Hillary phonebanking people this evening (apparently they do Wednesdays and Sundays) and told them I'd love to volunteer, but not for actual calling. Happy to do data entry, envelope stuffing, or various other tasks; cold calling (or semi-cold calling, I guess, since they have a starting list) is very much not-fun for me. They put me down as tentative for Sunday, and asked that I call the coordinator a few hours before to confirm that they might need someone who's not going to do direct calling.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:54 PM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Dude, I don't know what to say. We tried really, really hard, several hundred of us, including a sitting US Senator. I'm sorry we didn't succeed, but I promise you, it was not for lack of trying.

It is reported that Yue Wang Gou Jian, prior to battle, would line up his most fearless warriors ahead of the main cohort and, when the order was given, these men would cut their own throats as they faced the enemy. Not saying you should've tried that, but those guys really knew how to dominate the news cycle soooo
posted by um at 12:15 AM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Alternately, make sure your convention has better balloons than your opponent's.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Or try to come up with an actual electable candidate and platform which appeals to people outside the 27%. Just saying.
posted by maxwelton at 2:09 AM on August 11, 2016

You fought the good fight, corb. We're allies here in this fight and will do our best to make sure he's not elected.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:11 AM on August 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

Hillary Clinton Recruited 45 Designers From Across the Country to Create Her Campaign Buttons
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

2016 is going to go down in history as the year the worst parts of Internet culture took human form and ran for President.
posted by kewb at 3:29 AM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Okay: Connecticut is basically a deeply weird place that just covers it really, really well.

The first rule of WASP club is to never acknowledge the generations-deep emotional trauma keep this up and you'll have to settle for Brown
posted by 3urypteris at 3:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Access to healthcare through ACA may actually improve Americans’ health
Though data are preliminary, they suggest health upticks in participating states.
posted by XMLicious at 3:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

2016 is going to go down in history as the year the worst parts of Internet culture took human form and ran for President.

I said this months ago, possibly last year, and I'm sure Neither one of us was the first to notice it. Sometimes when I think of how to combat things he does, I try to recall and evaluate how good moments appear on otherwise terrible sites.
posted by cashman at 3:48 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"She does her homework." "She uses big words." "She believes in science." Be still my heart! Ordered!

And they don't say her name anywhere, so after the election I can just wear them to brag a out myself or pin them to my daughters when I send them off to school.
posted by OnceUponATime at 3:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Access to healthcare through ACA may actually improve Americans’ health

Living in a country where even ACA looks retro and half-hearted, this is my totally unsurprised face.

Nevertheless, cause for celebration!
posted by Autumn Leaf at 4:29 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

It felt like a lot of people were predicting that shit [violence at the GOP Convention] because they wanted to see it.

I first saw this accusation last night, and thought about it a lot, since I was one of the predictors. And you know what....yes, I think I did want to see it. But not for any kind of "oooh a fight scene" violence porn thing. Instead - it was more like if you're really sick to your stomach, and even though throwing up is really not fun, you just want to finally throw up and get it over with so that queasy feeling will go away.

The shouting and sloganeering are symptoms of an infection, and a riot at one of the conventions would have lanced the boil and finally let it start to drain. But nothing happened and things are continuing to fester and get worse.

Or look at it this way - one of the big turning points in the Civil Rights movement came the first time MLK and his team tried the march at Selma and the riot police attacked them, and it was on TV. Before that, the Civil Rights movement was just something people could look away from because it was just print in their newspapers. But actually seeing something that violent happen live, on television, was what made a lot of people suddenly wake up and go "whoashit, things are worse than I thought."

I think the reason I wanted to see something happen at one of the conventions was because I think things are so far gone that it is the only thing that will convince most of the country how bad off we are.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:51 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Be still my heart! Ordered!

I'm sure that visiting the store during the DNC when everyone else was doing it didn't help, but I've been waiting for my buttons for almost 3 weeks and haven't even gotten a shipping notification yet. I want to wear my Hill swag!

Amazon prime has ruined me.
posted by phunniemee at 4:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Dude, I don't know what to say. We tried really, really hard, several hundred of us, including a sitting US Senator. I'm sorry we didn't succeed, but I promise you, it was not for lack of trying.

To be clear, corb, my comment is not a criticism of you; rather, it is a criticism that there were not more of you.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:07 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

There wasn't likely to be much violence at the RNC, and I was surprised that people thought there would be.

The violent loonies WON. There only would have been riots if Trump *hadn't* secured a majority of delegates and/or *hadn't* come out of it as the nominee. The people who were likely to beat people up and set shit on fire if things didn't go their way were the ones getting what they wanted.
posted by kyrademon at 5:15 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

(Although I will note this does not augur well for November, given that the likely loser is already encouraging violence ...)
posted by kyrademon at 5:18 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Today the consensus is that fears of convention violence were overblown melodrama

Yesterday the consensus was we needed to organize an underground resistance for the inevitable Trumpian purges
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about nobly supporting corb's efforts. I know a lot of people here were making these predictions - sometimes humorously - and it isn't a nice accusation, and it isn't really meant as one.

But I definitely felt like they had this tang of angry, bloodthirsty voyeurism. Like people weren't actually making a prediction based on facts and human nature, but ...

Maybe, expressing thirty years of anger at the GOP.
Maybe, wanting the rest of the nation to be as scared as they are.
Maybe, wanting the GOP to be punished for/by Trump.
Maybe, wanting the GOP/Trump to be publicly responsible for some awful shit.

Idunno. This isn't something that needs to be litigated, I think.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

(I think the Trumpian purges fear is overblown too but I also definitely feel it. The difference is that in that scenario Trump has been elected and has actual power)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 5:27 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trumplypool
OR
Trumptypool

Pontyrump
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:41 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Too good to check: Sean Hannity’s tale of a Trump rescue

It seemed like such a sweet story — Donald Trump sending his personal plane down to Camp Lejeune, N.C., when 200 Marines were stranded after fighting in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. At least that is the story that Sean Hannity of Fox News has touted on his website for several months.

But a reader was suspicious and asked The Fact Checker to check it out.

Every story has A Trump Business Meltdown at its core. hmmm
posted by readery at 5:43 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

I think it was pretty plausible to fear convention violence. I was here in MPLS at the protests in 2008 and those were pretty dramatic for a variety of reasons - hundreds of arrests at multiple events, police threatening to shoot arrestees while the arrestees were in arrest position, mass tear-gassings, a truly bizarre police attack on a theater (and I witnessed a lot of this or had friends who did). The underlying reason for the extraordinary and pervasive violence was almost willfully bad policing - a huge ramp-up in equipment based on lots of money from the state, hundreds of police brought in from all over who did not know the territory and who were even more conservative than local police, terrifying lack of oversite, etc.

I was really afraid that similar stuff would happen in Cleveland with the added factor of gun-carrying Republicans. I had the opportunity to go to Cleveland with my union to protest and did not take it. I probably wouldn't have gone anyway because it was a long bus ride for a short day and looked exhausting, but fear of violence was a big factor.

To be honest, after those white supremacists shot people at the BLM protest here, I've been pretty hinky-feeling about big protests. I worry that it is only a matter of time until some right winger actually just strafes one and kills a ton of people. Every time I go on a march I worry about this.

When the people were shot at the BLM protest the cops would not help. They had to get to the hospital on their own. I am worried about what would happen if there were a big demo and lots of people were shot and the cops did not help.

I mean, my point is that you're not wildly panicky if you fear violence at large political events right now. That's what this time is like.

Also, also: if there is one thing I have learned in life from being on the very fringes of some violent political situations, it is that violence is sporadic. When I was in the 2008 protests, I remember the weirdness of walking down an ordinary street and turning a corner and then bam - police gassing people. These events can be very small and localized. I remember walking up the hills out of downtown on the most violent day and looking back - and downtown looked completely normal.

That's what violence is/will/would be like with the white supremacist right and Trump. It's not that all of us will see violence every day and it will be constant chaos. It's that some people, sometimes will be badly victimized down the street or around the corner, and it will be invisible to most of us. That's what to watch for.
posted by Frowner at 5:49 AM on August 11, 2016 [41 favorites]

I had two fears when it came to violence at the RNC:

1. Police violence against protesters, or clashes between different protesting groups (really not all that outside the realm of possibility given what's happened at several Trump rallies between Trumpists and protesters), and
2. Violence stemming from Trump not getting the nomination. Once it became clear that Trump was no longer an insurgency but the duly crowned nominee being fully supported by Priebus & Co, I stopped fearing that.

And I absolutely did not want the first scenario to happen because, no matter who started it or whose fault it was, it would absolutely be playing right into the hands of "the law and order candidate."
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:03 AM on August 11, 2016

Once Trump is safely and soundly defeated and banished to Trump Tower, I really hope people hold both Clintons' feet to the fire so we don't get more behavior like this. I understand that a lot of this has to do with the insular/tightknit staff (which itself is a result of decades of conspiracy-mongering and attacks against the Clintons), but it's really shitty, even if not illegal. I expect better from someone as smart as Clinton and we deserve better from our government.
posted by sallybrown at 6:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

From way back -

The Khans are receding.

They're not being talked about nearly as much, but I don't think anyone has forgotten. I plan to send the Khans my I Voted sticker along with a thank you note.
posted by sallybrown at 6:07 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

I said the Khan flap is receding, tyvm.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:14 AM on August 11, 2016

I said the Khan flap is receding, tyvm.

The usual treatment for a receding Khan flap is an application of at least one outrageous daily remark by a republican presidential candidate, and at least 2 channels worth of tv-news scrutiny.
posted by dis_integration at 6:24 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Looking forward to Hillary naming a panel of Merediths as advisers to counter Trump's panel of Steves.

It would be great if Hillary took the opportunity to revive an official title from the time of our nation's founding and appointed a Burgess Meredith.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:34 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wonder when the Republicans will nominate a candidate who only has, like, one or two houses.

The Democrats sure dodged a bullet there.
posted by peeedro at 6:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not content with doubling down on the crazy with his "2nd Amendment People" remark, Trump quadruples down, saying that Obama was the "founder" of ISIS and that ISIS "honors" him. Also calls the president by his full name with birtherite sneer.

Relevant Onion articles:
Paul Ryan: ‘The Comments Donald Trump Will Make Over The Next Few Months Are Regrettable’ (written a few days, but oh how prophetic)
Donald Trump Stares Forlornly At Tiny, Aged Penis In Mirror Before Putting On Clothes, Beginning Day (oldie but goodie)
posted by dhens at 6:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Once Trump is safely and soundly defeated and banished to Trump Tower, I really hope people hold both Clintons' feet to the fire so we don't get more behavior like this.

If only someone had brought this up during the primary, when people could've done something about it. Oh well, writing a strongly-worded letter will have to suffice.
posted by indubitable at 6:38 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

AND NOW

Hi Folks, I'm petebest. Like a lot of us I have eschewed traditional election year yammering for the thoughtful, occasionally brilliant, and always weird comments here on MetaFilter.

But did you know that MetaFilter™ is a Real Thing that needs money? For example, each one of these 3000+ comment threads are painstakingly hand-rendered in longhand on 8x14 canary yellow legal pads by cortex and LobsterMitten before being lovingly sung to a protected wilderness area full of wolves, frogs, and whatnot.

And that's not cheap. So please, scroll all the way down to the Doughnut link - sorry, the DONATE link at the bottom of this page and show whom you love with a one-time or recurring donation to the Me-ist of Fi's.

Thank you
Paid for by seemingly random ones and zeroes for more MeFi, Ink.
posted by petebest at 6:45 AM on August 11, 2016 [30 favorites]

Once Trump is safely and soundly defeated and banished to Trump Tower, I really hope people hold both Clintons' feet to the fire so we don't get more behavior like this.

Equivalency 2016:

Trump: Former secret service official says Trump made a "veiled threat" against Clinton, should be investigated.

Clinton: According to "several ethicists" (???), Clinton's team may have violated "spirit of pledge."
posted by dersins at 6:49 AM on August 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

Metafilter should run for President. It'll be the first hive-mind-American candidate.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:49 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

oneswellfoop: "I blame The Daily Show where the first stand-out 'correspondents' were Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert."

What? No love for A. Whitney Brown and Beth Littleford?
posted by Chrysostom at 6:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Once Trump is safely and soundly defeated and banished to Trump Tower, I really hope people hold both Clintons' feet to the fire so we don't get more behavior like this.

Equivalency 2016:

Um, I will point you to the first clause in the sentence you quoted, which makes it obvious that the poster is not in fact drawing an equivalence.
posted by dhens at 6:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ask(metafilter) not what your country can do for you. Ask(metafilter) if your country is safe to eat.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:51 AM on August 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

So Clinton is the "co-founder of ISIS" according to Trump. Have we reached the point where the truth is finally, 100% optional?

I mean, even from a 100% loony crackpot tea-party alt-right Obama-is-from-Kenya perspective, that STILL doesn't make any sense.

How can the Republicans stand with him?

And if the truth is well and truly out the window, can the Dems start running ads saying "Donald Trump stole Christmas" and "Donald Trump watches you sleep"?
posted by mmoncur at 6:51 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

If only someone had brought this up during the primary, when people could've done something about it. Oh well, writing a strongly-worded letter will have to suffice.

Let's see - Bernie Sanders managed to go the entire primary without showing us his tax returns - I wonder what's in there that he would like to hide.

Jane Sanders misrepresented the amount of pledged money Burlington College received, resulting in a botched land acquisition deal and the college going under. She also enrolled students in a woodworking school run by her daughter to the tune of more than 1/2 a million.

Everyone's unethical to some degree. Asking for favors and helping people out you know in different capacities is basically how the world works. The fact that the Clintons have been in the public eye for so long and this is the extent of their depravity actually gives me greater confidence.
posted by peacheater at 6:54 AM on August 11, 2016 [46 favorites]

And if the truth is well and truly out the window, can the Dems start running ads saying "Donald Trump stole Christmas" and "Donald Trump watches you sleep"?

"Donald Trump is a violent, racist dickbag."

Oh, wait, that one's true.
posted by dersins at 6:54 AM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

What time is Hillary's economic speech in Warren Michigan today?
posted by cashman at 6:55 AM on August 11, 2016

"Donald Trump made his money by stealing penny candy from the lobby machines at every Shoney's Restaurant in the greater New York area." /fake

Although that one shows an entrepreneurial spirit so they might like it. We need ones they would hate.

"Donald Trump cries every time he watches Beaches." or "Donald Trump enjoys eating chia seed smoothies with flax oil after his hot yoga class." /fake
posted by winna at 6:56 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump Tower was built with cold riveted girders with cores of pure selenium. It's like an antenna for pulling in and concentrating spiritual turbulence. The guy is either a certified genius or an authentic wacko.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:56 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

"Donald Trump watches you sleep."


(Strokes hair) shhh, shhh...you're going to have the best dreams, believe me. Classy dreams of so much winning.
posted by ian1977 at 6:57 AM on August 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

What? No love for A. Whitney Brown ?

No particular Whitney Brown.

Just "a" Whitney Brown.

Any of them would do.
 
posted by Herodios at 6:58 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ask(metafilter) not what your country can do for you. Ask(metafilter) if your country is safe to eat.

What I can't figure out is how we got these candidates jammed into our election in the first place.
 
posted by Herodios at 7:01 AM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

If only someone had brought this up during the primary, when people could've done something about it.

I wish I had had different choices in the primary too (imo, Bernie's economic policies didn't add up). Note that the emails discussed in the article have only just now become public.

The article is a completely fair critique of Clinton, and in no way does it draw an equivalency between these ethical issues and Donald's assassination threats.
posted by sallybrown at 7:02 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does anyone remember the short-lived Trey Parker / Matt Stone project, That's My Bush!?

It was a pastiche of shitty 1980s daytime sitcoms, starring President George W. Bush, his wife Laura, Karl Rove, and every shitty-daytime-sitcom trope in the book, from the laugh track to the wacky next-door neighbor.

That premise was both its genius and its fatal flaw. Turns out that a pitch-perfect lampoon of shitty daytime sitcoms is...just a shitty daytime sitcom.

Anyway, point is, there's gotta be room in this world for a short-lived flop TV series called That's My Trump!.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:03 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I believe it was called The Apprentice and it was inexplicably popular.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

Everyone's unethical to some degree. Asking for favors and helping people out you know in different capacities is basically how the world works.

Bureaucracy-land (in the US fed govt) can be a different place in this respect. I've worked in the federal gov't (as have my parents) and worked with people seeking permits and documents from the federal government and appealing administrative decisions, and on the whole, everyone I've encountered has been extraordinarily careful (to a silly degree) to avoid "giving favors." Really above and beyond. There are lots of cases of ethical failure but the kind of people I want continuing to work in my government are the ones who currently make up most of it.
posted by sallybrown at 7:06 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm sure that visiting the store during the DNC when everyone else was doing it didn't help, but I've been waiting for my buttons for almost 3 weeks and haven't even gotten a shipping notification yet. I want to wear my Hill swag!

Just checked. I ordered my Hillary swag on 7-24. One week later I ordered my Cafe Press bumper magnets (and thanks to the MiFite who suggested them because I ordered an official HRC one and I'm not all that excited by it.) The Cafe Press ones arrived yesterday. No word on the official campaign stuff.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:09 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Looks like Hillary is talking at 1:15 eastern today. It was previously scheduled for an hour earlier.
posted by cashman at 7:10 AM on August 11, 2016

Yeah, based on corb's on-the-ground reports...

This has been bothering me for a while now. How in the world is it possible that METAFILTER of all communities can claim a Delegate to the RNC as it's own but there wasn't a Mefite at the DNC?

The fact that we have a Republican Delegate on our roster suggests that we should have been able to have a huge meetup at the DNC and freaking out the mods because all the posts are coming from the DNC floor!

I mean, I think it points out just how much of an outlier Corb is more than any lack of participation on the community's part but still, it's weird.
posted by VTX at 7:10 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

The answer to the media / society's "both sides do it!" tendencies is not to ignore / downplay any negative coverage of Democrats. Hillary probably should have done a much better job of keeping the peanut butter and the chocolate separated, and she's been in the public eye long enough to know that. The fact that the deck has been stacked against her and her family for so long because of a decades-long assault by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy doesn't change her obligation to do the right thing. She can do better, and progressive should expect better.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:10 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Turns out that a pitch-perfect lampoon of shitty daytime sitcoms is...just a shitty daytime sitcom.

Well, unless and until your pastiche begins to make a series of increasingly bizarre and unsettling swerves away from its initial premise, and transcends pastiche to enter into--and subsequently claim rulership of--the realm of dark, unholy genius, of course.
posted by dersins at 7:10 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Secret Life of Gravy and others: they do respond to emails about purchases. My "a woman's place is in the Whitehouse" cross stitch pillow was super delayed and so I emailed because they seemed to be holding the other items up for it.
posted by R343L at 7:12 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Right, message received, as long as it's not technically illegal, we should just ignore whatever Clinton is doing or has done and definitely never bring it up as something that is not OK.

I did not say that, I was just urging a sense of perspective. I notice that you didn't respond to any of my comments regarding Bernie's hands not being completely clean either. Did you think his votes in favor of looser gun laws were entirely ethical?

I actually agree with sallybrown above - I do want ethical people in the government and I do want us to hold everyone accountable. But let's not ignore the huge house fire because someone's set their toast on fire.
posted by peacheater at 7:13 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy, I'm still waiting for official merchandise I ordered on 7/11.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:15 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know...I think that part of my bafflement at Trump's popularity is that I don't really think of him as a "reality TV star" (or even understand what that means, on a cultural level). I grew up with Trump as a minor background figure in American culture, most commonly referenced as a punchline for his hair and general extravagant tackiness – not as any kind of entertainer.

At some point, "reality TV" became a thing – but I don't think I've ever watched an entire episode of any "reality show". I was vaguely aware that Trump was on some show where he fired people, but to this day, I've never seen it. (Who watches TV anymore, let alone broadcast TV?)

So it's kinda strange for me to think that Trump was the star of a show which ran for 14 seasons in the US, attracting tens of millions of viewers and becoming (apparently?) a major hit. And that for many (especially younger) Americans, this would have been their first real exposure to Trump.

It's obviously not a good reason for anyone to support Trump (in fact, it's insane), but it feels like part of the puzzle that I'm missing.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:16 AM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Peacheater:

I do not see a lack of perspective on anyone's part. I think you are reflexively acting as if there is not.
posted by argybarg at 7:17 AM on August 11, 2016

Time Inside Donald Trump’s Meltdown Donald Trump's sinking polls, unending attacks and public blunders have the GOP reconsidering its strategy for November

But the general election will likely be decided by groups of voters who are rarely among the cheering throngs at his rallies. This is a fact that Trump is only now starting to confront. “I don’t know why we’re not leading by a lot,” he admitted to a crowd of thousands in Jacksonville, Fla., on Aug. 3. One reason is that he’s getting crushed by minority voting blocs that Republican strategists have suggested courting, such as blacks, Hispanics and young women.

Ask him about these struggles and the braggadocio fades to fatalism. “All I can do is tell the truth,” he says. “If that does it, that’s great. And if that doesn’t do it, that’s fine too.” Even the best salesman must bow to the realities of the marketplace.

[my bold] So he sounds like he is fine with losing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:19 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ok, fair enough argybarg, this election just means so much to me that I'm feeling really protective of Hillary Clinton at the moment. It's quite likely that I'm not seeing things objectively. indubitable, my apologies.
posted by peacheater at 7:21 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I watched a few episodes of The Apprentice early on but then forgot about it until last year when Trump started running. Somehow I thought that it only ran for a year or two and was astounded that it went for over a dozen seasons and was still on the air. Who knew?
posted by octothorpe at 7:21 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

So he sounds like he is fine with losing.

He freaked out and screamed about a stolen election and revolution repeatedly on Twitter on election night 2012 when he wasn't on the ballot. I see no reason to believe he'll be better with his name on the ballot.
posted by chris24 at 7:23 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who knew?

An absurdly large and loyal audience. And Gary Busey.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:24 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm 5000%> going to need some sort of "I SURVIVED THE 2016 ELECTION THREADS ON METAFILTER" memorabilia.

Proceeds go to the Mod Therapy Fund.
posted by zennie at 7:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Somehow I thought that it only ran for a year or two and was astounded that it went for over a dozen seasons and was still on the air. Who knew?

I'm going to make the bold claim here that Season IV of Celebrity Apprentice has the greatest cast of any reality TV show ever. One of the many billions of things that enrages me about Trump's campaign is that I can no longer fondly look back and laugh at the time Meatloaf and Gary Busey got into a screaming fight over poster paints.

Lil Jon should have won and we all know it
posted by sallybrown at 7:26 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

One of the many billions of things that enrages me about Trump's campaign

Billions? Really? I think we all know there's only a couple million things.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:30 AM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

Anyone know if there are local offices in Los Angeles where we can buy Hillary swag? I'd rather the money went to the campaign than go to a 3rd party, but all of the phone banks are held in people's homes or parks and they aren't giving out the office addresses anywhere I can find.

BTW, the Trump guy down the street upped his game from hand written signs this weekend. Please note multiple security cameras.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:32 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bob Woodward: "something something, both sides".
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Former US Ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul:

‏@McFaul: BTW, Trumps line that Obama founded ISIS echoes exactly a myth propagated by Russian state-controlled media and bloggers.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [42 favorites]

Hugh Hewitt all gently trying to guide Trump, like he's Anthony Fremont's dad. What must it be like to be a reasonably intelligent person and think: this is my candidate for President of the United States, and I am here to support him?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:37 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sophie I don't know what it's like in LA but the Columbus office only opened up a couple weeks ago and the smaller sites haven't opened yet. So that could be the deal.

I would check the DNC Los Angeles FB pages and try to get a sense of where they're based out of (I'm assuming there's one for each region).

Also if you show up at an event near you, you can talk to an Organize who will be happy to share all of that information.
posted by Tevin at 7:39 AM on August 11, 2016

Bob Woodward: "something something, both sides".

Woodward's main point appears to be that, although Trump is being disgusting, his opponents are just as bad for saying "hey Trump is being disgusting."

Which, um, go fuck yourself in the face, Bob Woodward.
posted by dersins at 7:39 AM on August 11, 2016 [37 favorites]

BTW, the Trump guy down the street upped his game from hand written signs this weekend. Please note multiple security cameras.

Installing a camera on top of the spark arrestor on your chimney doesn't seem like the greatest idea, Mr. My Christmas Lights Are Still Up In August.
posted by LionIndex at 7:41 AM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm 5000%> going to need some sort of "I SURVIVED THE 2016 ELECTION THREADS ON METAFILTER" memorabilia.

Maybe a pin that just says "STEVE!" and another that says "MEREDITH!"
posted by cortex at 7:41 AM on August 11, 2016 [44 favorites]

Bob Woodward: "something something, both sides".

Friedman’s opinion of Trump as “disgusting” is a “reasonable opinion,” Woodward said, but said he couldn’t recall another time in 40 years of covering politics when someone violated the “zone of protection” generally respected for candidates’ children.

What a slimy fuck. Limbaugh called Chelsea Clinton "the White House" dog, and the right wing as a whole starting denigrating Sasha and Malia Obama and calling them names from almost day one.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [37 favorites]

Which, um, go fuck yourself in the face,

I understand and support your sentiment, but I do wish you wouldn't use one of my lifelong dreams as an insult like that.
posted by OmieWise at 7:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm 5000%> going to need some sort of "I SURVIVED THE 2016 ELECTION THREADS ON METAFILTER" memorabilia.

Maybe a pin that just says "STEVE!" and another that says "MEREDITH!"

SIX STEVES AGREE: IT'S MEREDITH'S FAULT
posted by Etrigan at 7:44 AM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

Six Steves and a Meredith
posted by Yowser at 7:48 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

What a slimy fuck. Limbaugh called Chelsea Clinton "the White House" dog, and the right wing as a whole starting denigrating Sasha and Malia Obama and calling them names from almost day one.

Yeah, and, as opposed to the actual CHILDREN children attacked by the right, Trump's ADULT children have actively and enthusiastically inserted themselves into the campaign.

(I mean, except Tiffany and Barron, both of whom I feel kind of bad for, and who have pretty much been completely left out of this shit anyway.)
posted by dersins at 7:48 AM on August 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

Trump has suggested Ivanka be on his cabinet, all three are running his campaign. WTF.
posted by readery at 7:49 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

What a slimy fuck. Limbaugh called Chelsea Clinton "the White House" dog, and the right wing as a whole starting denigrating Sasha and Malia Obama and calling them names from almost day one.

Or McCain's, "Why is Chelsea so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno," for fucking misogyny yahtzee.
posted by nom de poop at 7:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [28 favorites]

Which, um, go fuck yourself in the face, Bob Woodward.

When did Bob Woodward become such an asshole? Or was he always one? Because mentally, I'm having a tough time reconciling the guy who was part of breaking open Watergate with the spineless piece of flesh he appears to have become somewhere in the last 20 years.
posted by nubs at 7:51 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hugh Hewitt all gently trying to guide Trump, like he's Anthony Fremont's dad. What must it be like to be a reasonably intelligent person and think: this is my candidate for President of the United States, and I am here to support him?

The thing is, Hewitt gave him an opening big enough to drive a cruise ship through, and Trump still failed to do follow the bread crumbs:

HEWITT: I think you meant Obama created the vacuum that led to ISIS.

TRUMP: No, I meant he’s the founder of ISIS.

And, of course, Trump has been saying "Barack HUSSEIN Obama" when he makes the accusation, which isn't particularly subtle.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:51 AM on August 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

So I only had a crush on Chelsea as a nerdy teenager because I was a liberal even back then?
posted by Talez at 7:52 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

When did Bob Woodward become such an asshole? Or was he always one?

Previously on metafilter.

I think Woodward's public assholery started after 9/11.
posted by dis_integration at 7:54 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I watched a few episodes of The Apprentice early on but then forgot about it until last year when Trump started running. Somehow I thought that it only ran for a year or two and was astounded that it went for over a dozen seasons and was still on the air. Who knew?

So here's a lightly edited transcript from from Benjamin Walker's Theory of Everything podcast that addresses this exactly. This episode seems to be somewhere between news coverage, satire, and conspiracy theory, but this is what his CIA-connected friend has to say:

Well, I think what people like you are missing is just that: you’ve never watched the show. You don’t even have the name right. It’s The Celebrity Apprentice. The Apprentice, the non celebrity version, ran until 2008. The ratings were so low that the show was set to be cancelled. But then Trump had this idea to use celebrities, and the show became the powerhouse it is today. But the magic is the celebrity. The season with David Cassidy is amazing. Okay, but since you’re too cool to watch the show, what you don’t know is that no real celebrity has ever appeared on the show. Trump only gets washed up, B-list celebrities. People who wanted to be famous, and wanted to be important... So, hate on Trump all you want, but you got to admit that he is really good at making losers feel important.

posted by peeedro at 7:57 AM on August 11, 2016 [28 favorites]

I'm about the same age as Chelsea and Ivanka, and oddly, I remember wondering what it would be like to be both of them, at different times. When I was young and I learned who Trump was, mainly through Bloom County, I thought, what must it be like to be the richest little girl in the country? When I was a little older, I thought, what must it be like to be the First Daughter and live in the White House and have everyone, not just the mean kids, make fun of your hair and teeth?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:58 AM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

"I see you have braces. I have braces too."
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:58 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

MEREDITH/STEVES 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:00 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

> "MEREDITH"/STEVES 2016

ftfy
posted by Tevin at 8:02 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm a little surprised that the video of Malia smoking at Lollapalooza has not gotten bigger traction. My husband hadn't even heard the story. I wonder if it will come up in one of Trump's attacks.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:03 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

What a slimy fuck. Limbaugh called Chelsea Clinton "the White House" dog, and the right wing as a whole starting denigrating Sasha and Malia Obama and calling them names from almost day one.

We also said some cheerfully appalling things about Trig Palin.
posted by beerperson at 8:03 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Alice Roosevelt Longworth would have been all 4/20 everyday, you know she would
posted by Countess Elena at 8:04 AM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy: "I'm a little surprised that the video of Malia smoking at Lollapalooza has not gotten bigger traction. My husband hadn't even heard the story. I wonder if it will come up in one of Trump's attacks."

Young adult acts like a young adult.
posted by octothorpe at 8:06 AM on August 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

Josh Marshall: "Earlier this week I asked the question whether Trumpism would outlive Trump's campaign. What I've just described above tells us pretty clearly that it will and that the GOP is now a Trumpite party and will remain a Trumpite party."
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:06 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Maybe a pin that just says "STEVE!" and another that says "MEREDITH!"

And another that says "Egg McMullin".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:08 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

MEREDITH/STEVES 2016

Feel the Merde!
posted by nom de poop at 8:10 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

/gradually loses awareness of the Egg McMuffin as it fades from McDonalds menus across the nation.
posted by Artw at 8:10 AM on August 11, 2016

Two tweets just now from Daniel Dale, from the worlds-of-wacky-shit-one-journalist-has-covered-colliding files:

1. Millions of readers will wake up tomorrow to articles that treat "Obama founded ISIS" as a normal claim that may or may not be true.

2. Here is the Rob Ford crack video
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:12 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Interfaith leaders and Equality Florida protesting Trump and Rubio appearance at Florida Renewal Conf.

Tomorrow is the 2 month anniversary of the massacre in Orlando.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:12 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

cjelli: "To be absolutely and pre-emptively clear to anyone reading this and thinking 'surely this is satire,' no: The Wall Street Journal"

"take the fucking hint, Mr. Hewitt desperately pleaded with his eyes."
posted by boo_radley at 8:15 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I swear at this moment my husband and I are sitting around debating what Trump THINKS "founded" means.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:16 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

go fuck yourself in the face, Bob Woodward

#tshirtideas
posted by aspersioncast at 8:17 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Feel the Merde!
posted by nom de poop at 11:10 AM on August 11 [+] [!]

I don't even have to say it, do I?
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:17 AM on August 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

'The Apprentice', the non celebrity version, ran until 2008. The ratings were so low that the show was set to be cancelled.

Which is curious, because the non-celeb British version with Alan Sugar is still rolling along, perhaps because British audiences like watching posh young middle-class types with an inflated sense of their own talents fuck up basic tasks. (It's responsible for inflicting the execrable K*t** H*pk*ns on the UK.)

The Hewitt thing: Hewitt is master of sneakily leaking oily mendacity into the public discourse, giving it that polluted rainbow sheen, whereas Trump is driving around a tanker of bullshit and blasting it in people's faces.
posted by holgate at 8:19 AM on August 11, 2016

As her father said - "I inhaled. Frequently. That was the point."
posted by Devonian at 8:19 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

1. Millions of readers will wake up tomorrow to articles that treat "Obama founded ISIS" as a normal claim that may or may not be true.

2. Here is the Rob Ford crack video

At least poor ol' dead Rob Ford had an excuse for his verbal diarrhea.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:19 AM on August 11, 2016

Trump doesn't like Hillary's temperament. SHE'S A LOSER! He prides himself on his temperament

Previously, the strategy was to turn your opponents strengths into a weakness (see: Swiftboating, which was also a nasty smear campaign), but Donnie trumped that and made it about himself. Which makes sense, because everything ends up being about him.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:20 AM on August 11, 2016

I swear at this moment my husband and I are sitting around debating what Trump THINKS "founded" means.

Judging from how he thinks he built a billion-dollar business out of nothing but his father's billion-dollar business, I gather that he thinks it means "happened to be there at some point in the process".
posted by Etrigan at 8:22 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Clinton Derangement Syndrome: Diagnosing the real reason that so many Americans hate Hillary by Sarah Kendzior:

Hillary Clinton’s approval ratings are currently the second-lowest of any major presidential candidate in history – second only to Donald Trump, who during the time I wrote this article feuded with a baby and insulted the parents of a deceased Muslim military veteran , among many other controversies. (By the time you read this, there will undoubtedly be more.) It is bizarre that Hillary’s ratings should be anywhere close to Trump’s, but here we are. That is the product of 25 years of hatred for Hillary Clinton.

Note I said “hatred for Hillary Clinton,” not “criticism of Hillary Clinton", because criticism is not really what it is. Criticizing Hillary is good. It is necessary for our democracy, particularly as the likelihood that she will win increases. Clinton’s record as Secretary of State and Senator should be scrutinized. Her public statements should be parsed. Her financial dealings with the Clinton Foundation should be examined and the public should get an answer on what she learned from her mistakes – as she has undoubtedly erred in her carelessness over her email security and in some of her policy decisions while Senator and Secretary of State – and why her mistakes will not be repeated. ...

Still, Hillary’s willingness to shift her economic policies on issues like the minimum wage – partially in response to advice from leftist politicians like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren – is commendable. It is upon others to constructively critique her policies, and upon Hillary to listen to them. This is standard procedure for any presidential candidate. It is how any presidential nominee should be treated.

posted by maudlin at 8:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [31 favorites]

I swear at this moment my husband and I are sitting around debating what Trump THINKS "founded" means.

So, I had some contact with a sociopath for awhile. (At least, she met every item on the checklist.) Based on some fascinating and horrible conversations with her, I'd venture to say it is more satisfying for Trump to get people to believe blatant lies than to get them on board with the truth - it's a bigger ego boost if what he says is completely visibly stupid, but accepted anyway. It means he's more powerful, and needs to do less work. Kind of a 'who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?' situation.
posted by mordax at 8:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [30 favorites]

@McFaul: BTW, Trumps line that Obama founded ISIS echoes exactly a myth propagated by Russian state-controlled media and bloggers.

It isn't enough that "Obama literally founded ISIS" is completely incorrect and nonsensical; it also has to prove that Trump is Putin's man in America, a foreign intrusion into American politics instead of a natural growth therefrom.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I missed something, where did STEVES come from?
posted by numaner at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2016

I don't care how much you guys make fun of him, I still think Edward Cullen has a chance to win Utah at least.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:26 AM on August 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

STEREDITH
posted by EarBucket at 8:27 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, hate on Trump all you want, but you got to admit that he is really good at making losers feel important.

...the time Meatloaf and Gary Busey got into a screaming fight over poster paints.

Angry, middle aged, washed up white guys screaming at each other about and over nonsense? OMG, The Celebrity Apprentice was just a bunch of small scale Trump rallies.

Alternate hypothesis, we're now watching the final season, in which Trump himself is a contestant.
posted by VTX at 8:27 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cincy Enquirer:

With the presidential election 90 days away, the Donald Trump campaign is scrambling to set up the basics of a campaign in Hamilton County, a key county in a swing state crucial to a Republican victory, a recent internal email obtained by The Enquirer shows. The campaign has yet to find or appoint key local leaders or open a campaign office in the county and isn’t yet sure which Hamilton County Republican party’s central committee members are allied with the Republican presidential nominee.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:28 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I missed something, where did STEVES come from?

Intromission.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:28 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

> I missed something, where did STEVES come from?
posted by numaner at 8:26 AM on August 11 [+] [!]

We've been expecting this question, and maybe it's time you knew. See, sometimes when a man and a woman love each other very much, they give each other a very special hug just for grownups...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:28 AM on August 11, 2016 [34 favorites]

I missed something, where did STEVES come from?

Big Oil and real estate, mostly.
posted by EarBucket at 8:29 AM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I don't care how much you guys make fun of him, I still think Edward Cullen has a chance to win Utah at least.

If Utah won't come with him voluntarily, Edward Cullen is just going to pick it up and carry it against its will *swoon* *sparkle*
posted by sallybrown at 8:29 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

This Obama founded ISIS thing is too ridiculous for me to deal with, so instead let's all just listen to Obama's summer playlists. They all look like good picks, even as I'm delighted and baffled by the inclusion of Fiona Apple's "Criminal."
posted by yasaman at 8:31 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump Tower was built with cold riveted girders with cores of pure selenium. It's like an antenna for pulling in and concentrating spiritual turbulence. The guy is either a certified genius or an authentic wacko.

I guess they just don't make them like they used to, huh?
posted by Servo5678 at 8:31 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I missed something, where did STEVES come from?

Trump revealed his economic team recently, and it is in significant part The Fellowship of the Steve.
posted by cortex at 8:33 AM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

even as I'm delighted and baffled by the inclusion of Fiona Apple's "Criminal."

that thing when your kid first discovers a classic and it sneaks its way back onto your playlist too?
posted by sallybrown at 8:33 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I missed something, where did STEVES come from?

Trump announced his economic advisory team a few days ago. It contains five guys called Steve and no women. (Technically two Steves, a Steven, and two Stephens - and will be lead by another Stephen who was already part of the campaign).
posted by Francis at 8:34 AM on August 11, 2016

I guess they just don't make them like they used to, huh?

Man, you guys. Now I want a *really big* Twinkie.
posted by mordax at 8:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

it also has to prove that Trump is Putin's man in America, a foreign intrusion into American politics instead of a natural growth therefrom.

He's a natural growth that Putin is exploiting for his own purposes. No one is saying he's literally a Russian sleeper agent. We are saying he's credulous and susceptible to flattery, so Putin is feeding him BS and compliments, and he's repeating the BS (including in Republican platform committee meetings) and basking in the compliments.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

With the presidential election 90 days away, the Donald Trump campaign is scrambling to set up the basics of a campaign in Hamilton County, a key county in a swing state crucial to a Republican victory, a recent internal email obtained by The Enquirer shows.

"His hands and eyes starting twitching as the horror of diagramming that eldritch sentence dawned on him. He could barely grasp the pencil to the page while the English teacher's bone-chilling cackling tore through the classroom."
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm a little surprised that the video of Malia smoking at Lollapalooza has not gotten bigger traction. My husband hadn't even heard the story. I wonder if it will come up in one of Trump's attacks.


I don't think a lot of the Trump children, but I think they are smart enough to not open that door to themselves because if you don't think there's some rich prick with photos just waiting to let them loose, I've learned nothing from horrible rich people on TV.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

[Recorded voice] Please wait by your vehicle between 9:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. for parking officer Steve...

[Different recorded voice] Grabowski.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:38 AM on August 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

> "Today the consensus is that fears of convention violence were overblown melodrama ... Yesterday the consensus was we needed to organize an underground resistance for the inevitable Trumpian purges ..."

Amazingly, entirely different situations can result in entirely different outcomes!
posted by kyrademon at 8:38 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

>> I missed something, where did STEVES come from?

> Trump announced his economic advisory team a few days ago. It contains five guys called Steve and no women. (Technically two Steves, a Steven, and two Stephens - and will be lead by another Stephen who was already part of the campaign).
posted by Francis at 8:34 AM on August 11 [+] [!]

Well and also a guy named Steve tried to climb up Trump Tower yesterday, which makes us think that all the Steves may be gathering for a stevemoot.

But that's less an answer to "where did steves come from" and more an answer to "where do steves go," I guess.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:41 AM on August 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

No one is saying he's literally a Russian sleeper agent.

I can't even see this basic construction any more without flashing back to the "many people are saying" trope. What's interesting is that Trump himself rings subtle variations on this theme, and even gently and incrementally escalates it in intensity over time.

Like, you can go back and look at his Twitter timeline and see how he started in with Elizabeth Warren: "sometimes referred to as Pocahontas." That became "*often* referred to as Pocahontas" — still, obviously, by nobody but himself — and eventually simply "Pocahontas." At this point the association is annealed. He doesn't even have to assert it anymore. It just is.

This is a literal former PSYOPer speaking, now: this is very, very canny memetic craft. I'm all but certain, given who we're talking about, that it's preconscious. (That's why I say "canny," rather than brilliant.) But oh my word is it effective.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [28 favorites]

Making an issue of Malia smoking would be a bad move. Outside of the hard core racist demographic attacking a teen age girl for smoking isn't going to play very well.
posted by rdr at 8:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump Tower was built with cold riveted girders with cores of pure selenium. It's like an antenna for pulling in and concentrating spiritual turbulence.

You're telling me that Melania Trump lives in corner penthouse of spook central?
posted by octobersurprise at 8:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

Making an issue of Malia smoking would be a bad move. Outside of the hard core racist demographic attacking a teen age girl for smoking isn't going to play very well.

So Trump's definitely doing it by the end of the afternoon then?
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:45 AM on August 11, 2016 [33 favorites]

That became "*often* referred to as Pocahontas" — still, obviously, by nobody but himself

To be fair, I saw this years ago in the Boston Herald comments section. And, as others have remarked, Trump is basically a human comments section.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:45 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump Tower was built with cold riveted girders with cores of pure selenium. It's like an antenna for pulling in and concentrating spiritual turbulence.

He actually only used the gold plated bolts but the sheer size makes up for the lack of selenium.
posted by Talez at 8:46 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't even see this basic construction any more without flashing back to the "many people are saying"

Confession -- that comment originally said "People are saying he's credulous and susceptible to flattery." Once I hit post that same construction triggered my own "ew" reflex, and I quickly edited to read "We are saying" because I can take responsibility for my own opinions, damnit. But it's not just me saying it.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:46 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I was wondering when we had all fallen into this magical world where Donald Trump doesn't do things that don't play well.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 8:46 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This Utah thing is a nonstarter, Ewan McGregor isn't even eligible to run.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:47 AM on August 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

I, for one, am worried about Trump's Meri-Deth panels.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Well, this is weird. But then again, well, yeah.

Lawsuit: Trump campaign failed to act after NC director pulled a gun on staffer:

A former Charlotte staffer for Donald Trump’s presidential campaign alleged in a lawsuit Thursday that Trump’s then-state director pulled a gun on him, and campaign officials ignored pleas to do something about it.

Vincent Bordini filed the suit in Mecklenburg County Superior Court against Charlottean Earl Phillip and the Trump campaign. Phillip was replaced this month as Trump’s state director.

Bordini, described in the suit as “a passionate Donald J. Trump supporter,” claims to have described the February incident to then-Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski.

Bordini, 41, claims he was hired by the campaign as a software trainer in December 2015. On Feb. 13, during the South Carolina primary, he says he was with Phillip and got in Phillip’s Jeep outside a Greenville S.C. hotel.

“All of a sudden, Vincent saw Phillip pull a gun out from his side of the Jeep,” the suit says. “It was a .45 caliber pistol. It was loaded… Phillip then moved the gun toward Vincent. He pointed it at, and then placed the barrel on, Vincent’s left knee cap…

“Vincent froze. Philip’s gun was loaded and the safety was off. A bump in the road would likely result in a bullet hole, and worse, in Vincent’s knee. Once the initial shock wore off, Vincent said, ‘What the f--- are you doing?’”

The suit alleges that Bordini learned of “at least four other” people on whom Phillip pulled a gun. He said he alerted Trump campaign staffers including Lewandowski and Stuart Jolly, Trump’s national field director.

posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:48 AM on August 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

I'd venture to say it is more satisfying for Trump to get people to believe blatant lies than to get them on board with the truth

This could be the case, but at this point I think he might actually believe the lies coming out of his word hole. Some candidates have charisma, some have preternatural levels of calm, while some are total wonks that understand all of the nuances of policy. I think Trump's defining characteristic might be his ability to totally believe the reality he has constructed for himself and his followers, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
posted by strange chain at 8:49 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Dudes, I saw MERIDETH on tour with SLAYER and METALLICA. She was, let's face it, only OK. At best.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Like, you can go back and look at his Twitter timeline and see how he started in with Elizabeth Warren: "sometimes referred to as Pocahontas." That became "*often* referred to as Pocahontas" — still, obviously, by nobody but himself — and eventually simply "Pocahontas."

Maybe Trump exists outside of the normal human experience of time as a flowing narrative. Maybe at every moment, Trump is not the sum of all previous moments in one man's life, but rather just a Trump of that moment. Every moment before was a different, separate Trump; every moment hence will be a new Trump. He perceives himself not as a 4-dimensional being, but as a great accordion of momentary snapshots, linked together like cut-out paper dolls.

Many people. Many people named Trump. Many people are saying. When he says something a dozen times and then says people are saying it, he's not lying or ginning up support from the ether; he's talking about all those other Trumps, all more or less in agreement with him except when they aren't. His own army of canny genuises and useful idiots, all deniable because they're all someone else.

Trump as a stranger in a strange land, as a temporal nothing, as a Flatlander watching a sphere intersecting his reality layer by layer and perceiving only the circles, and the circles are himself.
posted by cortex at 8:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [94 favorites]

Community Apprentice: Six Steves and a "Meredith"
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

(That was gonna be a tweet but it seemed like it needed more than 140 chars.)
posted by cortex at 8:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

salix: NRA circles the wagons around Trump (Politico)

Just hours after Donald Trump sparked yet another controversy with remarks that seemed, to some, to encourage violence against Hillary Clinton, the NRA went public with its biggest gift yet to the Republican nominee - a $3 million ad buy attacking Clinton as a hypocrite.

The spot – which calls Clinton “out of touch” for living under Secret Service protection while promoting gun restrictions – is the biggest single ad buy for Trump this cycle and it brings the NRA’s total spending this cycle to around $6 million.

No other major political group is spending money on the Republican nominee. Quite the contrary, the ad buy comes as Trump’s campaign struggles to stem defections as it watches some of the GOP’s most reliable supporters, donors, and elected officials abandon their nominee in response to Trump’s rhetoric and conduct on the campaign trail.

Oh wow. NRA realizes that Trump is their only hope for status quo on gun regulations. I'm really looking forward to November.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

South Carolina:

Public Policy Polling from today: Donald Trump leads by only 2 in South Carolina, with 41% to 39% for Hillary Clinton, 5% Gary Johnson, 2% Jill Stein
posted by OmieWise at 8:51 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Many people. Many people named Trump. Many people are saying.
This was the plot of a Larry Niven short story in, like, '78.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:52 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

A former Charlotte staffer for Donald Trump’s presidential campaign alleged in a lawsuit Thursday that Trump’s then-state director pulled a gun on him, and campaign officials ignored pleas to do something about it.

Clearly his own fault for not being armed and/or not being quicker on the draw.
posted by Artw at 8:53 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bernie Sanders managed to go the entire primary without showing us his tax returns - I wonder what's in there that he would like to hide.

Not exactly. Here is Sanders 2014 tax return if you are interested, the only one he released. One interesting part is that he is maxing out his tax deductible retirement contributions of $18,000. Normally someone at his age, 74, would be required to withdraw from his 401(k) and pay taxes rather than contribute to it, but there is a loophole that allows you delay withdrawals and avoid paying taxes as long as you remain continuously employed. Also his very high property tax and mortgage interest deductions, about $38,000 indicates he and/or his wife own some pretty expensive homes.

It is interesting that Sander's wife Jane is still receiving $4900 per year as a member of the Texas Low-Level Radioactive Waste Disposal Compact Commission. This was a somewhat controversial proposal to dump nuclear waste from Vermont's Yankee plant near a minority community in Texas that Sanders was criticized for supporting.
posted by JackFlash at 8:54 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Fun note: there's a Trump ad on the Politico article about Donnie's support from the NRA, with the bold statement "Aspire for Greatness." It features Donnie in his signature "everyman" baseball cap with his "Make America blah blah" slogan and a space shuttle launching, and a faux button that says "JOIN TEAM" and the Paid for by DJT for Pres, Inc. fine print. Except he has no space policy, and has previously commented that "we need to fix potholes first" when asked by a 10 year old boy about his view on NASA. On his Issues page, there's no menthere's a bunch of videos, and all except the top one feature his face, like he's some vlogger.

And to save you a page click, here's his issues, from top to bottom:

1. Former Students Speak Out In Support of Trump University - The recent press attacks upon Trump University have not been an accurate representation of the professionally run school that provided a quality real estate education.
2. The Establishment - I want to win for the people of this great country. The only people I will owe are the voters. The media, special interests, and lobbyists are all trying to stop me. We won’t let that happen!
3. Trade War - Our country is getting ripped off. We need the smartest people negotiating for us!
4. Making Deals With Congress - I would love to see the Republican party and everyone get together and unify. When we unify there is nobody who is going to beat us!
5. Law Enforcement Respect - The police in our country do not get respect. Our law enforcement officers deserve our appreciation for the incredible job they do.
6. First Day In Office - What I would do on my first day in office.
7. Competent Leadership - America needs strong leadership. Politicians can talk but they don’t get things done. I have a strong track record of success and if elected I will do what I have promised to do: ‪#‎MakeAmericaGreatAgain‬!
8. Drug Epidemic - The New Hampshire drug epidemic must stop. If elected POTUS — I will create borders and the drugs will stop pouring in. We will ‪#‎MakeAmericaGreatAgain‬!
9. Live Free or Die - Live Free or Die: A motto for the whole country to follow.
10. The 2nd Amendment - Politicians are trying to chip away at the 2nd Amendment. I won’t let them take away our guns!!
11. Political Correctness - Being politically correct takes too much time. We have too much to get done!
12. Israel - I am very pro Israel.
13. Self Funding - I am self funding my campaign so I don’t owe anything to lobbyists and special interests. I will bring the greatest negotiators and smartest operators to Washington to help Make America Great Again!
14. Illegal Immigration - If we don’t have borders, we don’t have a country. We need to BUILD A WALL that will keep illegal immigrants out.
15. Competent Leadership - I will unify and bring our country back together. We will be unified, we will be one, we will be happy again.
16. Drug Epidemic -
17. Education - I will end common core. It’s a disaster.
18. The Military - I will make our Military so big, powerful and strong that no one will mess with us.
19. Jobs - I will be the greatest job-producing president in American history.
20. Life Changing Experiences - America has been great to me, I want to be great to America. I want to put us back on the right course and Make America Great Again!
21. The Economy - $19 trillion of debt and growing is a crushing burden to leave young Americans
22. Trump University Truth - The facts on Trump University the media and lying politicians choose to ignore. Irresponsible and dishonest.

I have so many responses. The greatest responses! But I have work to do, so I'll leave it here.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:56 AM on August 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

cjelli: We, collectively, should not be more informed about widespread reactions to his statements than Trump himself. He has an entire staff to keep him up to date with how his statements are being received by the public -- or at, least, he should.

He lives in an echo chamber of his own making. He has the greatest selective hearing in the world. The greatest! So he'll hear all praise and support as being his people and the silent majority who support him, and the rest are a bunch of commie pinkos and commie sympathizers biased media and people who hate his success.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:59 AM on August 11, 2016

I wonder if it will come up in one of Trump's attacks.

Given that his own children posed with the cut off tail of an elephant they killed I'm thinking he probably won't go there.
posted by srboisvert at 9:00 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I like that the first and last issues are both Trump University, which is of course super relevant to the running of the country.
posted by zempf at 9:00 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Making an issue of Malia smoking would be a bad move. Outside of the hard core racist demographic attacking a teen age girl for smoking isn't going to play very well.

So Trump's definitely doing it by the end of the afternoon then?

It's a thing that could increase his unfavorability, it's a knock on someone he's not even running against, so applying Trump's Razor ... this afternoon would probably be the latest it could happen.
posted by LionIndex at 9:01 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I would like to see a poll of Texas. I'm not saying Hillary will win there, I just suspect it's going to be closer for her than Pennsylvania is for Trump.
posted by argybarg at 9:02 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Now that the festivities of Suction Steve are over, I need something else to distract me from my inner narrative about what the racists are going to do after they stop yelling at their TVs on election day.

Obama founding ISIS, sorry to say, does not have the comic relief of Suction Steve. It's more like somebody saying, "There's a unicorn behind you!" That's not funny. It's just crazy and boring.
posted by angrycat at 9:03 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Making an issue of Malia smoking would be a bad move. Outside of the hard core racist demographic attacking a teen age girl for smoking isn't going to play very well.

It's Trump, which means:

1. "bad idea" calculus doesn't apply. Doesn't mean he will do it, just means there's no normal way of predicting with confidence that he won't.

2. It won't look like it normally would if we imagined a pol making the dubious decision to Go There. It won't be a pointed shaming of drug use tied to accusations of pro-drug Dems or hypocrisy from the White House or whatever. It'll be Trump bringing it up sideways, maybe in another random lurch toward half-assed Bernie-pandering that's at total odds with standard GOP rhetoric about drug abstinence and such.

Trump going there would look something like "(unrelated point yadda yadda)..., and, oh, well. Kids in the cities, a lot of kids getting in trouble. Parents, where are they? A lot of trouble. Going to jail, lots of crime. You know how it is. You know. It's terrible. I mean, if you have the "right" parents, though. I guess some folks are having fun. [joint smoking gesture]. I don't know. You tell me. (Onto next tangent...)". He'll go there without going there, he'll go there without any kind of point, and people will talk about how he went there and why you shouldn't go there and nobody will have any idea why he did it or what to do about it and five hours later he'll be at another rally complaining about how the wall would be cheaper if NAFTA didn't close down all our cement foundries and ship them to China.
posted by cortex at 9:03 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

South Carolina:

Last polled back in November when Trump had a five point lead and it really wasn't expected to look good for Hillary Clinton. I thought people were being optimistic when it showed up in the leaning states.
posted by Francis at 9:04 AM on August 11, 2016

He won't go there with Malia Obama because she didn't insult him directly.
posted by argybarg at 9:06 AM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

I would like to see a poll of Texas. I'm not saying Hillary will win there, I just suspect it's going to be closer for her than Pennsylvania is for Trump.

PPP is going to be polling Texas in the next week or so. The last polls per 538 were in mid-June, with Trump +7 (not counting 538 adjustments). I wouldn't be shocked if Texas were within the margin of error.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 9:10 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"From the White House: The President and Malia Obama are going for a short walk on a trail near their residence." (No source, just a cap, quoted here.)
posted by maudlin at 9:12 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

If my dad was photographed smoking a joint as a teenager and went on to become the President of the United States, I think I too might have a pretty blase attitude about the horrors of the reefer
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:16 AM on August 11, 2016 [67 favorites]

He will hit Malia hard. Remember him sitting at the Correspondents Dinner steaming while being made fun of by Obama?

And he takes substantial pride that his brood have not gotten in to any trouble, it is a reason why some of his followers think he's a 'stand up guy', he has 'good' kids.
posted by readery at 9:22 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

So the "Clinton killed her accuser to hide the evidence, Wikileaks told me so, just wait until October" is a thing on Facebook already. Ugh.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:22 AM on August 11, 2016

I think argybarg is right, Malia won't attack him so he'll leave her alone.
posted by zutalors! at 9:23 AM on August 11, 2016

"From the White House: The President and Malia Obama are going for a short walk on a trail near their residence."

"Shit, Malia, this is waaaay stronger than that Chicago ditchweed. You're gonna have to hook me up before we hit the islands in January."

But seriously - if he's anything like most of the dads in my peer group, it'll be 'I do hope there wasn't any tobacco in that, young lady. That's nasty stuff. I should know." Whether Trump goes there... his Razor says he will, and I wouldn't be surprised, but yeah - it wasn't about him, so he might not even process it.
posted by Devonian at 9:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I dunno: I really like that little White House memo. It's part Cool Dad, part PR Is Part Of Our Lives, Malia, Like it Or Not and part Chill The Fuck Out - I Got This.
posted by maudlin at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

adamgreenfield: "This was the plot of a Larry Niven short story in, like, '78."

I think you're thinking of, "All the Myriad Ways." Originally published in Galaxy, October 1968.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:27 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also his very high property tax and mortgage interest deductions, about $38,000 indicates he and/or his wife own some pretty expensive homes.

Matter of perspective/location I guess. Yes, pretty expensive by any rational basis absolute, but if they own anything here in the DC area it could be well within the median home price.

A $38,000 deduction for the year means $3,166 a month in interest. If they were, today, to pick the cheapest standalone home non-condo in the 22202 zip code - the Crystal City area, so they were just over the river from Capitol Hill - you'd get this townhouse at $762,000. Put down 20% and finance at 4% you have a loan where payments in the first year (when you're paying a larger % of your payment on interest) and you have $2,000 a month interest payments; $24,000 in mortgage interest deduction for the year.

That's not counting taxes, which are just over $7,000 for the most recent year.

Looking on the Hill closer to work for Sanders you're over a million. Picking a random one there the taxes showed up at over $8,000 for something currently listed at about $1.4M.

So yeah, even if they simply own something in his home district and something in The District, that's an expensive home. But it's very possible it's not at all ostentatious - just reflective of the area.
posted by phearlez at 9:32 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump saying Obama and Clinton founded ISIS is an effort to give moral license to his followers to attack or kill them. This is stochastic terrorism.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [52 favorites]

And he takes substantial pride that his brood have not gotten in to any trouble, it is a reason why some of his followers think he's a 'stand up guy', he has 'good' kids.

Astounding as it is, this is actually true. My super super 1% rich friend that I've mentioned before (she's texted me, IF she votes she voting Hillary, so something I said stuck) said that Trump was a "good family man". When I pointed out his 3 marriages and 5 kids by 3 different women, she said that he had good kids, so he was obviously doing something right.

Another thing that was brought up to me was Chelsea Clinton and Ivanka Trump reportedly being good friends. This person said that it proved that the Clintons and Trumps were besties and Trump is just doing this to hand the win to Hillary. There are just some things so ridiculous that you can't even answer.
posted by hollygoheavy at 9:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fun juxtaposition with Obama's Cool Dad Talk, today the Obama DEA reaffirmed the classification of marijuana as a Schedule I controlled substance.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:37 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

The "Obama founded ISIS" thing is just...what. I think that "assassinate Clinton" may have been Trump's shark-jump moment, because he can't top that without doing or saying something actually illegal. His strategy thus far (such as it is) has been to keep the spotlight by out-WTF-ing himself whenever the latest flap has started to blow over. And what can you say that will shock people who've watched you call for the assassination of your political rival? Anything he says from here on out is just going to provoke eye-rolls.

"Obama founded ISIS" is patently absurd to anyone except the fringe far right, who were going to vote for him anyway. To everyone else, it just looks crazy and sad.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:38 AM on August 11, 2016

Clearly someone needs to cover "These Are the Daves I Know" and replace "Dave" with "Steve".
posted by modernnomad at 9:38 AM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

He will hit Malia hard. Remember him sitting at the Correspondents Dinner steaming while being made fun of by Obama?

And he takes substantial pride that his brood have not gotten in to any trouble, it is a reason why some of his followers think he's a 'stand up guy', he has 'good' kids.

Plus the double bonus of being able to say Malia was fair game since the Bush twins were, while passive-aggressively implicating JEB! and the Bush family for raising bad kids.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:39 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

This person said that it proved that the Clintons and Trumps were besties and Trump is just doing this to hand the win to Hillary. There are just some things so ridiculous that you can't even answer.

TBF it's as plausible as any other explanation for his behavior.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:39 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just out of ignorance on my part, what was this newly killed 'witness' going to testify against Clinton for? Like what trial? I've not heard of anything.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:39 AM on August 11, 2016

man obama is going to chew biden out for selling malia that dimebag
posted by entropicamericana at 9:39 AM on August 11, 2016 [35 favorites]

Key graf of Josh Marshall's latest commentary piece:

If Trumpism were simply a loud and radical faction within the GOP, there would be some comparable faction opposing it, raising stakes and consequences for those who supported him. But there's not. In other words, the size of the Trumpite faction within the GOP (and I'd argue it's quite large) is beside the point because it demonstrably rules the GOP.

One of the predictions following Citizens United was that insurgents didn't necessarily need the party leadership to gain power, and the NRA's alliance with Trump points that way even if the Kochs and others are focusing down the ballot. [Tangentially, the NRA operates as both a 501(c)(3) and a 501(c)(4), and is very good at blurring the lines between the tax-deductible wing and the lobbying wing, especially on its Twitter account.]
posted by holgate at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think the daughter of the president of the united states of america should be smoking much fatter joints than that pinner.
posted by srboisvert at 9:44 AM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

>> I missed something, where did STEVES come from?

> Trump announced his economic advisory team a few days ago. It contains five guys called Steve and no women. (Technically two Steves, a Steven, and two Stephens - and will be lead by another Stephen who was already part of the campaign).
posted by Francis at 8:34 AM on August 11 [+] [!]

Well and also a guy named Steve tried to climb up Trump Tower yesterday, which makes us think that all the Steves may be gathering for a stevemoot.

But that's less an answer to "where did steves come from" and more an answer to "where do steves go," I guess.

Wow that tidbid fell through the cracks with all the stuff I get bombarded with. (in my defense I was on vacation from the 4th through the 8th and willfully ignored all news)
posted by numaner at 9:44 AM on August 11, 2016

Just out of ignorance on my part, what was this newly killed 'witness' going to testify against Clinton for? Like what trial? I've not heard of anything.

Leaking info to the FBI/Wikileaks, is the speculation.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:45 AM on August 11, 2016

oneswellfoop: "I blame The Daily Show where the first stand-out 'correspondents' were Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert."

What? No love for A. Whitney Brown and Beth Littleford?

For all their virtues, neither one was a Steve.

And with all due respect to Herodios, A. Whitney Brown once introduced an SNL appearance with, "Good evening, I'm A. Whitney Brown and someday I hope to be The Whitney Brown."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:46 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's no "Good evening. I'm Chevy Chase, and you're not," but what is?
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:48 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump as a stranger in a strange land, as a temporal nothing, as a Flatlander watching a sphere intersecting his reality layer by layer and perceiving only the circles, and the circles are himself.

Oh man he talks like the Orz

I am say best word *frumple*. Maybe you do not know.
*Frumple* be *round* and yet *lumpy*. So bad!!!
The asking about Androsynth is so *frumple* we are not happy.
Do not asking it so much.
It is better not to *frumple* or else there is so much problems.
No more Androsynth is better.

posted by nom de poop at 9:50 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

[Tangentially, the NRA operates as both a 501(c)(3) and a 501(c)(4), and is very good at blurring the lines between the tax-deductible wing and the lobbying wing, especially on its Twitter account.]

In ... well, fairness is not an appropriate word choice here. But I would wager that if you picked a dozen associations (and we have a bazillion of them here in the DC area, including an association for associations) you'd find more than half of them have an attached PAC.

Reputable operations go to big lengths to keep operations of them distinct even if they are administered by people who are within the office, but there's always going to be some obvious connection between them. What makes the NRA's stand out is the sheer quantity of money they have. Some (perhaps many, numerically) of those PACs have annual finances that couldn't cover paying two minimum wage salaries for a year.
posted by phearlez at 9:53 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

And with all due respect to Herodios, A. Whitney Brown once introduced an SNL appearance with, "Good evening, I'm A. Whitney Brown and someday I hope to be The Whitney Brown."

Yes, I saw that ep.

I steal only from the best sources.
 
posted by Herodios at 9:54 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump On General Election: 'I’m Liking The Way I Ran In The Primaries Better'
posted by zachlipton at 9:54 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton killed her accuser to hide the evidence, Wikileaks told me so, just wait until October

Hillary Clinton personally murders every murder victim in the United States. The reason murder rates have fallen over the last couple decades is she got tired as she got older.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:54 AM on August 11, 2016 [32 favorites]

Hillary Clinton personally murders every murder victim in the United States.

Being able to be everywhere at once is a quality I look for in a president.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 9:56 AM on August 11, 2016 [32 favorites]

He's a natural growth that Putin is exploiting for his own purposes. No one is saying he's literally a Russian sleeper agent. We are saying he's credulous and susceptible to flattery, so Putin is feeding him BS and compliments, and he's repeating the BS (including in Republican platform committee meetings) and basking in the compliments.

I'd say people have made stronger claims than that. Here Josh Marshall insinuates that the Russian government unduly influences Trump's policy through financial ties to him and his campaign. Here he defends his thesis against criticism. In the first piece, Marshall takes pains to write that he doesn't think the Russian government literally controls Trump's campaign, but these passages don't convince me when the rest of his piece does everything it can to insinuate that the Russian government could pull the floor out from under Trump's campaign if it wanted to.

That said, you're right that my comment's original phrasing was too strong, and I won't argue the point at length. Linking Trump to the indeed extremely bad Russian government annoys me when Trump and his fellow Republicans are so bad on their own, is all.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:57 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

From CNN: Giuliani also went to bat for Trump on his comments Tuesday where he appeared to say that people should consider shooting Hillary Clinton.

"You don't give him a fair shot," Giuliani told Cuomo.

Giuliani isn't much better at this than Hurricane Katrina.
posted by JackFlash at 9:57 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Why is Trump sitting in the dark in his Trump University Truth video and using the microphone on his phone for audio? Sad!
posted by kirkaracha at 9:58 AM on August 11, 2016

readery: Remember him sitting at the Correspondents Dinner steaming while being made fun of by Obama?

Well, I didn't, but I found a recent Washington Post piece talking about what happened that evening: I sat next to Donald Trump at the infamous 2011 White House correspondents’ dinner [real]. Trump has other motivations too.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump On General Election: 'I’m Liking The Way I Ran In The Primaries Better'

"Reverse the pivot, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead"
posted by komara at 9:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary Clinton personally murders every murder victim in the United States.

npr: some people say hillary personally murders every murder victim in the United States [fake, for now]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:00 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Being able to be everywhere at once is a quality I look for in a president.

Hillary Clinton: secretly the living gumdrop-thing singer for cartoon Mastodon.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

If memory serves me correctly, when the US military had Osama bin Laden cornered in Tora Bora, the stated reason for not sending in the military to finish him off was that the American people would disapprove if the casualties were too high (this is pre-Iraq War, you understand, and I thought the argument was a load of hogwash at the time, too).

Your memory is not quite correct. Tora Bora was not a corner.

Osama escaped despite a somewhat decent attempt to capture him. The real failure was that CIA resources and special forces were pulled off the trail after the close escape and redeployed for the invasion of Iraq.

The Bush administration was entirely comfortable with boots on the ground and military deaths. Just not in pursuit of the greatest mass murderer in american history. They felt the sacrifice would be worth it for good financial terms for big oil however.
posted by srboisvert at 10:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Just walked past the TV with CNN in my building lobby. Text across the bottom of the screen: "Trump says Obama founder of ISIS (He's not)".
posted by une_heure_pleine at 10:07 AM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

Just walked past the TV with CNN in my building lobby. Text across the bottom of the screen: "Trump says Obama founder of ISIS (He's not)".

I love that this is happening as much as the next fellow, but let's not kid ourselves: the next GOP nominee will be no less mendacious, only he'll be telling lies that are not acceptable to call out as lies, and this will not happen for him.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:09 AM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hillary Clinton personally murders every murder victim in the United States.

Being able to be everywhere at once is a quality I look for in a president.

She just drones on and on.
posted by srboisvert at 10:10 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just not in pursuit of the greatest mass murderer in american history.

No, Bush knew where Hillary Clinton was.
[joke]
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just walked past the TV with CNN in my building lobby. Text across the bottom of the screen: "Trump says Obama founder of ISIS (He's not)".

screenshot

The people writing chyrons are the only true journalists left
posted by theodolite at 10:11 AM on August 11, 2016 [44 favorites]

Many people. Many people named Trump. Many people are saying.
adamgreenfield: This was the plot of a Larry Niven short story in, like, '78.

Chrysostom: I think you're thinking of, "All the Myriad Ways." Originally published in Galaxy, October 1968.

Scanned short story w/OCR (PDF, 5 pages), from PS4200: Politics of Science Fiction
posted by filthy light thief at 10:12 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just walked past the TV with CNN in my building lobby. Text across the bottom of the screen: "Trump says Obama founder of ISIS (He's not)".

They had an extended discussion about this last hour. A panel of a few journalists talked about how we're in a "post fact-check" world in some senses, and that viewers could change that possibly, by doing research and believing facts rather than just accepting whatever conspiracy theory comes to their attention.

One reporter said "so when we repeat Trump's statements, we need to make sure we say 'he's not'." It may be that the more Trump criticizes the media, the more they decide to show how much lying he's doing. I hope so. At some point, you're lying. If I say If Trump says he founded CNN, they would obviously say that was a lie. Not "how can he claim this?" "Trump says he's CNN's founder", but "Trump lies again".
posted by cashman at 10:13 AM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

I salute you, CNN chyron man
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:13 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

OK, CNN, you can sit at the grownups table for dinner tonight.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:14 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

... or maybe just a picture of Lying Cat by the headline.
posted by Mooski at 10:15 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Hey, hey, let's not go nuts here.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:16 AM on August 11, 2016

TIL the word chyron.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 10:18 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Have we found out what Suction Steve wanted to tell Trump so badly? I really want to know!

Wild-ass guesses:

• He discovered/invented some kind of conspiracy theory (Clinton planned Benghazi as part of her plan to force Americans to gay-marry members of ISIS; Obama is a lizard person; etc.), and he thinks that publicizing the truth about it can help Trump win the election.
• The "vote for Trump" callout in his video was a false flag (FALSE FLAG!), and he wanted to get close to Trump in order to assassinate him (or prank him, or pull some kind of "gotcha" stunt).

posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:18 AM on August 11, 2016

@HillaryClinton

It can be difficult to muster outrage as frequently as Donald Trump should cause it, but his smear against President Obama requires it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:19 AM on August 11, 2016 [52 favorites]

Okay, let me clarify my previous comment: the first Daily Show Correspondents to become major stars beyond the show are Carell and Colbert (or as they were once billed "Even Stephven") and no others are bigger today (I WISH Lizz Winstead were a household name myself). The Daily Show started a lot of today's better trends... and a couple of not-so-good ones, "Steve-ism" among them.

BTW, all these comments and nobody's come up with "Disney's Meredith and the Seven Steves"?? Photoshop wizards, get to work!!
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:22 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

How Bin Laden Escaped in 2001—The lessons of Tora Bora:

When the opportunity came to kill bin Laden and decimate al Qaeda, less than one hundred special operations forces were deployed to pursue bin Laden in Tora Bora. Over those five days, hundreds – if not thousands – of al Qaeda and Taliban operatives crossed effortlessly into Pakistan and disappeared.
...
Throughout the Battle of Tora Bora, neither the president nor the secretary of defense was directly engaged in the most important operation of the U.S. war in Afghanistan.
...
Indeed, how could an engaged president and secretary of defense...allow a battle for the existence of al Qaeda to be waged by ninety-three Western commandos and a contingent of generally untrustworthy Afghan rebels without any reliable force to seal the escape routes?

The Account of How We Nearly Caught Osama bin Laden in 2001:

By late November, Crumpton—a soft-spoken Georgian widely regarded as one of the most effective CIA officers of his generation—feared that bin Laden might try to escape Tora Bora. He explained this to Bush and Cheney personally at the White House and presented satellite imagery showing that the Pakistani military did not have its side of the border covered. CIA Director George Tenet remembers Bush asking Crumpton if the Pakistanis had enough troops to seal the border. “No, sir,” the CIA veteran replied. “No one has enough troops to prevent any possibility of escape in a region like that.” Still, Crumpton thought the United States should try—and that meant more troops would be required.
...
In the end, there were more journalists—about 100, according to Nic Robertson of CNN and Susan Glasser of The Washington Post, who both covered the battle—in and around Tora Bora than there were Western soldiers.

Bin Laden's Tora Bora escape, just months after 9/11L

The strategy, as with the whole Afghan campaign, was to limit the number of American boots on the ground.

Instead Afghan fighters would operate under the direction of the small CIA/Special Forces teams, supported by air power.

But at Tora Bora, the Afghan mujahideen proved unreliable allies. They refused to fight at night leaving al-Qaeda to reoccupy ground that had been painfully won.
...
Berntsen asked for 800 US Rangers to be placed between Bin Laden and the border, or to enter the mountains from the Pakistani side. His request was denied.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:26 AM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

@HillaryClinton

It can be difficult to muster outrage as frequently as Donald Trump should cause it, but his smear against President Obama requires it.

Her self-follow-ups:
- No, Barack Obama is not the founder of ISIS.
- Anyone willing to sink so low, so often should never be allowed to serve as our Commander-in-Chief.

(Emphasis mine)

The photoshopped nutter reply was something to behold, in a different way ("GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS" - Hillary Clinton jailed for at least 37 years / Bill Clinton named co-conspirator / Pres. Trump: Obama was ineligible, so his Hillary pardon is null and void)

All counts of what? Co-conspirator how? Ineligible why? Ffffuuuuuuu.....
posted by filthy light thief at 10:27 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ugh. Regarding those Trump Issues videos on his site...

It's exactly what you'd expect. Absolutely no policy details and word salad that doesn't even make sense. "Political Correctness" is an issue, and apparently it's bad because it "takes too much effort and time".

Doh! I thought the post about this upthread had to be satire. I am losing my discernment of truth from fiction and it's disorienting as shit.
posted by puddledork at 10:29 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

The photoshopped nutter reply was something to behold

Responses to the Hillary Clinton Twitter are like the ultimate "don't scroll down" unfortunately.
posted by zutalors! at 10:30 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Ineligible why?

Born in Kenya, obvi. So his presidency was a non-presidency. It's like when they declare someone an anti-Pope and take back all his decisions.
posted by dis_integration at 10:34 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's like when they declare someone an anti-Pope and take back all his decisions.

I live in fear.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:36 AM on August 11, 2016 [36 favorites]

Ineligible why?

Born in Kenya, obvi. So his presidency was a non-presidency.

Like the tortured argument that Ohio wasn't legally a state until 1953, so William Howard Taft wasn't a natural-born citizen, so the 16th Amendment wasn't legitimately introduced to Congress by a legitimate President, so income taxes are illegal, which isn't quite as crazy as admiralty flags in courtrooms, but is still impressively crazy.
posted by Etrigan at 10:38 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Hillary's speech has started.
posted by cashman at 10:39 AM on August 11, 2016

I've seen that meme before. What kind of person spends his one precious life waiting to post the first reply to HRC's last tweet with that kind of thing? Especially when there are plenty of Russians who are paid to do it anyway? Got to remember: they can tweet all they want but they can only vote once, and the Russians not at all.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:40 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

General Hayden: Donald Trump Insults His Audience | Morning Joe | MSNBC

A couple interesting points about security briefings. They're pretty low level, but they may give cover to Trump's wild assertions.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:41 AM on August 11, 2016

Can someone clear up this Obama Founded ISIS meme thing for me? Does he mean it (or could he plausibly deny it via wordsalad) as in "Obama's policies in the Middle East led to the creation of ISIS " or doe he mean it as in "Obama literally called up his friend al-Baghdadi and was like, hey, how about we go for that Caliphate thing we've always wanted"?
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:41 AM on August 11, 2016

A livestream of Hillary unveiling her economic plan.
posted by cashman at 10:41 AM on August 11, 2016

what is this I don't even: Steve King Offers Rare Praise For Clinton: 'I Can Work With' Her As Prez.

not a steve joke
posted by palindromic at 10:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

all those racist twitters that get the first reply to every single Trump/Hillary post are bots or running scripts
posted by theodolite at 10:42 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

NYT update about yesterday's weirdness:

The man whose brazen climb of Trump Tower riveted people across the country on Wednesday has been charged, the police said on Thursday morning.

Identified as Stephen Rogata, 19, of Great Falls, Va., he now faces charges of reckless endangerment and trespassing in connection with the unauthorized ascent of the Fifth Avenue building, the police said.

A police spokesman said on Thursday morning that Mr. Rogata was still being evaluated at Bellevue Hospital Center, where he was taken shortly after he was subdued by the police during a dramatic encounter as he tried to scale past the 21st floor of the building.

Bellevue is a mental health center, right?
posted by AFABulous at 10:42 AM on August 11, 2016

Well that's a relief, I'm glad this major communication medium allows such creative and constructive engagement
posted by Countess Elena at 10:44 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, Bellevue is.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:44 AM on August 11, 2016

CNN Live Stream News WATCH CNN 24/7 Donald Trump Hillary Clinton Economy Speech Warren MICHIGAN
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:46 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can someone clear up this Obama Founded ISIS meme thing for me? Does he mean it (or could he plausibly deny it via wordsalad) as in 'Obama's policies in the Middle East led to the creation of ISIS' or doe he mean it as in 'Obama literally called up his friend al-Baghdadi and was like, hey, how about we go for that Caliphate thing we've always wanted'?

Asked and answered.

HEWITT: I think you meant Obama created the vacuum that led to ISIS.

TRUMP: No, I meant he’s the founder of ISIS.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:46 AM on August 11, 2016 [34 favorites]

Can't somebody develop a direct line of logic between some failed Trump business deal and the founding of ISIS? Or Al Queda? And doesn't his construction enterprises have a record of deaths-on-the-job? Likely more than average considering his long record of skirting regulations, including health-and-safety? As long as we're into the era of false equivalency, responding to blatant lies with dicey statistics should be fair game.

The list of Trump issues starting and ending with Trump University shows the real reason he's running - and do so desperately. If he loses, he'll eventually to jail for fraud (37 years? Maybe.) and he can only pardon himself as President.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:47 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does he mean it (or could he plausibly deny it via wordsalad) as in "Obama's policies in the Middle East led to the creation of ISIS " or doe he mean it as in "Obama literally called up his friend al-Baghdadi and was like, hey, how about we go for that Caliphate thing we've always wanted"?

Which one sounds stupider? Apply Trump's Razor.
posted by VTX at 10:47 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Surely someone will say that he was "just joking" by 4PM EST.
posted by rp at 10:51 AM on August 11, 2016

“No,” Mr. Trump replied. “I meant he’s the founder of ISIS."

I.... uh. Huh.

Thanks for...clearing that up? By which I mean holy shit this is guanopsychotic and I understand nothing.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:53 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Deadspin: An Oral History of Our "Go Fuck Yourself" Tweet to Donald Trump:

On January 16, 2013, Deadspin published an exposé of Notre Dame linebacker Manti Te’o’s fake dead girlfriend. The next morning, reality TV personality Donald Trump tweeted his congratulations. Fourteen minutes later, Deadspin tweeted back “Go fuck yourself.” This is the story of that tweet, as told by those who lived it.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:53 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hill: Broadband in every home by 2020
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:53 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

From Politico (Breaking): More than 70 Republicans have signed an open letter to Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus urging him to stop spending any money to help Donald Trump win in November and shift those contributions to Senate and House races.
posted by syzygy at 10:55 AM on August 11, 2016 [25 favorites]

Hey, Clinton is talking about actual plans and policies in her economics speech. I didn't think that was allowed.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:55 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

HEWITT: I think you meant Obama created the vacuum that led to ISIS.

DRUMPF: No, I meant he’s the founder of ISIS.

That odious turd James Taranto is busy defending the "Obama founded ISIS" comment over on Twitter in his usual inimitable way. He says, and here I quote, "Read the full quote and it's clear he didn't mean it literally. His 'no' here is like Biden's misuse of 'literally.'"

I don't understand the mental gymnastics required to convince yourself to keep supporting Trump. The self-delusion would be almost impressive to watch if it weren't going to, you know, actually lead to the end of America.
posted by holborne at 10:55 AM on August 11, 2016

Can't somebody develop a direct line of logic between some failed Trump business deal and the founding of ISIS?

Presumably it involves a line through the time Trump buddied up with Qaddafi in pursuit of his money. Qaddafi was killed in 2011, and that paved the way for ISIS to move into Libya. I'm not really sure what the connection is between Trump's efforts and Qaddafi's death, except that it's surely just as strong as the connection between Obama and the founding of ISIS.

p.s. while ISIS certainly became a bigger thing under the Obama Administration, it was founded years earlier.
posted by zachlipton at 10:56 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

HRC: Dramatically simplify tax filing for small businesses.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:56 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well that's a relief, I'm glad this major communication medium allows such creative and constructive engagement

This hooks into Charlie Warzel's piece on Twitter's abuse problem:

“There are easy anti-abuse ideas that product managers brought up like 10 times — like, when you open any famous person tweet, the first reply you see should be somebody the tweeter follows, not just a rando,” one former employee said. “We talked about this idea five years ago — that’s an eternity in tech — and they’re not executed, and that does not give me hope that they think about this problem.”

Except in this case, the 'rando' is probably a bot account that was directed towards Putin's opponents a year ago.
posted by holgate at 10:57 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

But maybe the only thing keeping the right-wing wackos with too much time on their hands from dominating internet comment completely is that most of them are still on dial-up?
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:57 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

We believe that Donald Trump’s divisiveness, recklessness, incompetence, and record-breaking unpopularity risk turning this election into a Democratic landslide, and only the immediate shift of all available RNC resources to vulnerable Senate and House races will prevent the GOP from drowning with a Trump-emblazoned anchor around its neck.

Don't worry, guys. If it's a Trump anchor it'll probably dissolve on contact with water, so you won't drown.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:58 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Presumably it involves a line through the time Trump buddied up with Qaddafi in pursuit of his money.

So what you're saying is that some people, some very smart people, are saying that Trump was responsible for Benghazi? Interesting.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:58 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

HRC: Trump has a history of stiffing small businesses.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:58 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

While Bellevue is most-often associated with mental-health care, it's a regular hospital as well.
posted by AJaffe at 10:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

...guanopsychotic...
soren_lorensen at 12:53 on August 11

I love this turn of phrase!
posted by Fezboy! at 10:59 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bellevue is a mental health center, right?

Yes, Bellevue is.

Until far-too-recently,I thought it was a fictional mental health hospital made up for the TV show Night Court.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

People really need to start holding Pence's feet to the fire on this stuff- he agreed to be on the ticket, now he has to defend it:

"Mr. Pence, does Donald Trump really believe that the President is a founder of ISIS? Does he believe that Secretary Clinton is? Does Mr. Trump have any evidence to back up his claims? Have you seen that evidence? Does Mr. Trump believe that the Clinton foundation has influence over arms sales that were approved by Congress?"


Make him own it, and wear it. None of this "Oh, he's the reasonable one" business.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2016 [44 favorites]

"Twitter's abuse problem" is an important part of Twitter's Business Plan. Without it, they'd shrink in usage, lose lots of ad dollars and shrivel up and die.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

HRC: Trump can ignore his debts, but students and grads can't refinance their debt.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:01 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

From Politico (Breaking): More than 70 Republicans have signed an open letter to Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus urging him to stop spending any money to help Donald Trump win in November and shift those contributions to Senate and House races.

Pathetic. That's not 70 current Republican members of Congress, nor is it even 70 current Republican officeholders. Instead, it seems to mostly be a bunch of former elected officials and a bunch of staffers.

The Republican party is <Biden>literally</Biden> burning to the ground, but for the most part, elected Republicans seem keen to just watch it burn around them.

What a bunch of cowards.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:02 AM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

HRC: Trades will be half of all jobs 2020, we should train them.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:03 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I thought Betsy was a nickname from Elizabeth, but I guess it's actually another word for Steve.

Trump adds 7 women to economic advisory council including originator of Obamacare death panels myth @Betsy_McCaughey...


("full" story for what it's worth here)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:03 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

HRC: Will stop bad trade deals, including TPP.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

"... only the immediate shift of all available RNC resources to vulnerable Senate and House races will prevent the GOP from drowning with a Trump-emblazoned anchor around its neck ..."

It'll be the best, classiest, gold-plated anchor ever, believe me.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

They're not sitting back and watching it burn, they're making the calculated decision that the GOP is now and for the future the party of Trump, and having supported Trump will be viewed as a positive for their re-election. They are actively choosing to support him to stay in office, regardless of what that means for the country.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump adds 7 women to economic advisory council including originator of Obamacare death panels myth @Betsy_McCaughey...

And not one Stephanie. MEDIOCRE.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:05 AM on August 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

HRC: Will appoint Chief Trade Prosecutor.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:06 AM on August 11, 2016

I don't think there's calculation on the part of elected Republicans, I think there's paralysis. They have no idea how to handle this.
posted by argybarg at 11:07 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

HEWITT: Now, Donald, you didn't mean that crazy, thing, right, you meant this other thing that sort of makes sen--

TRUMP: No I meant the crazy thing
posted by EarBucket at 11:08 AM on August 11, 2016 [73 favorites]

"I saw Obama and Hillary in a closet making ISIS and I saw one of the members of ISIS and ISIS looked at me."
posted by drezdn at 11:09 AM on August 11, 2016 [47 favorites]

Hillary is doing great. She just announced this page: https://www.hillaryclinton.com/feed/made-in-america-a-buyers-guide-for-donald-trump

(Short link - Hillaryclinton.com/MakeItHere)
posted by cashman at 11:09 AM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

HRC: Slams Trump on outsourcing. hillaryclinton.com/makeithere
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:09 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Make It Here
posted by kirkaracha at 11:09 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

That point about needing more training for trade jobs is a good one. In my sector, most of the guys (and they're almost all guys) at trade shows are in their 50s and 60s. I think this has as much to do with the fact that the trades are often dangerous, exploitative, misogynist, queerphobic, and low-status as anything else (and cracking that nut is going to be complicated, but we absolutely need to be doing that too) but the lack of emphasis on training is certainly a big part of it. There are a lot of people out there who would probably rather be Making Stuff than whatever they're doing now, but there really is a dearth of educational opportunities in that area.

It's been taken as a given for far too long that the only jobs worth having are the ones that require a college degree, and that you should only go into the trades if you're not smart enough for a "real" education. We need smart tradespeople too. Badly. And with the current cohort of workers ageing rapidly, wages are only going to go up as the supply of skilled workers begins to thin out. It's definitely worth investing in.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:11 AM on August 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

HRC: New tax breaks to encourage revenue sharing. Exit tax for moving overseas. Buffet Rule. Lots of loophole closing. Trump would get rid of essential regulations.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:12 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

HRC: New Trump Loophole would reduce his tax by half.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:14 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

If the Trump campaign made one stinking thing as directed and effective as the Make It Here page, I'd be scared.
posted by argybarg at 11:14 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump is going to lose big. It's going to be YUGE. He's going to lose bigger than any candidate ever. He will have the best loss. No one will ever beat him at losing.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:14 AM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

HRC: New Trump Loophole would reduce his tax by half.

And give his family a 4 billion dollar cut while doing nothing for 98% of Americans.

She's doing a great job of just laying it out.
posted by cashman at 11:15 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

That Make It Here site is brilliant.
posted by maudlin at 11:16 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

what is this I don't even: Steve King Offers Rare Praise For Clinton: 'I Can Work With' Her As Prez.

Aw, it's easy. Know what a "Rat King" is? Same thing. It's a similarly entangled King. A Steve King.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:16 AM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Trump adds 7 women to economic advisory council including originator of Obamacare death panels myth @Betsy_McCaughey...

McCaughey goes back a lot farther than Obamacare and directly to Hillary Clinton. McCaughey is credited with torpedoing Clinton's first attempt at healthcare reform in 1994. Andrew Sullivan has been excoriated for publishing her dishonest and fear-mongering attack on Hillarycare in the New Republic.
posted by JackFlash at 11:16 AM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

HRC: Trump wants tax breaks, I want investments. I want to be held accountable. Which candidate can you count on?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:17 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

He will have the best loss. No one will ever beat him at losing.

George McGovern? Walter Mondale? Stephen A. Douglas, who managed to come fourth as the nominee of one of the main two parties?

He's even going to lose at losing.
posted by Francis at 11:17 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

No way whatsoever does Trump know the name al-Baghdadi, and I would not be surprised if he thought a caliphate was some kinda fancy pastry or something.
posted by lauranesson at 11:18 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've watched the streams from Trump rallies too often so I want to watch HRC speak to balance myself out. FILL ME WITH HOPE AND OPTIMISM HILLARY!

But man, the chat comments...my eyes! My sanity!
posted by VTX at 11:18 AM on August 11, 2016

HRC: Quality childcare for all. Trump's is for the rich.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:18 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

And not one Stephanie. MEDIOCRE.

And no Jennifers. Sad!

There is Judy Shelton, tho, a member of the Atlas Network, a libertarian-ish organization who's mission is "to strengthen the worldwide freedom movement by identifying, training, and supporting individuals with the potential to found and develop effective independent organizations." In other words, Amway.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:19 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

But man, the chat comments...my eyes! My sanity!

Watch this one instead then - there's no chat, just video: Live Stream
posted by cashman at 11:20 AM on August 11, 2016

I would not be surprised if he thought a caliphate was some kinda fancy pastry or something.

What the caliph had for breafast.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:21 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Need clarification on the Steves: which Steve is the friend that has trucks and which Steve is the friend that builds plants and says that Mexico is the eighth wonder of the world?
posted by Don Pepino at 11:21 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

HRC: Upping the minimum wage increases spending and helps all. Cites Ford (not by name)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:21 AM on August 11, 2016

Public option!
posted by chaoticgood at 11:22 AM on August 11, 2016

There is Judy Shelton, tho, a member of the Atlas Network, a libertarian-ish organization who's mission is "to strengthen the worldwide freedom movement by identifying, training, and supporting individuals with the potential to found and develop effective independent organizations." In other words, Amway.

YM "Randway." HTH.
posted by dersins at 11:22 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is going to be fun. HRC making very specific criticisms of Trump's proposals, and wasting no time in making it personal. Probably the beginning of actual on-the-issues campaigning, and how Trump responds - or how his spokespeople/GOP allies respond - will be most interesting...

(And everyone knows that a caliphate is an ionic compound of caliphur.)
posted by Devonian at 11:22 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

heh, I just got an email from Cards Against Humanity on their new election expansion packs (scroll down to America Votes with Cards Against Humanity)

description: "We’re letting America choose between two new expansion packs about either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump.

At the end of this promotion, Cards Against Humanity will tally up the sales of both packs, and depending on which pack gets more support, we will donate all the money in support of Hillary Clinton."
posted by numaner at 11:24 AM on August 11, 2016 [122 favorites]

HRC: Unions good for all. The tone of this election is terrible. We can do better.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:24 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bahahaha.
Cards Against Humanity is doing an election edition of boosters, one for Clinton and one for Trump.
I don't want to go linking a sales page here, but their leanings in this election are perfectly clear:

Each pack costs $4 and contains 15 cards about America’s most beloved public figures, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. At the end of the voting, we will tally up the sales and donate all the money to one of the candidates, and that candidate is Hillary Clinton.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Argh! Jinx!
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm really liking the jab-cross rhythm Clinton has going in this speech - start with the policy stuff, finish with the talking points, slogans and criticisms of her foe. My favorite was the paragraph about taxes that was practically a spoken spreadsheet, that she then brought around to reminding us that Trump still hasn't released his taxes.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

it's what happens to Californians. they have a caliphate. what about that is difficult to understand?
posted by indubitable at 11:25 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

And no Jennifers. Sad!

I'd be willing to bet Hillary has hired at least 27 Jennifers.
posted by peeedro at 11:26 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

"TRUMPIAN IDEAS THAT EVEN REPUBLICANS REJECT"

HILL YES! This way to the escape hatch, Reasonable Republicans!
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:27 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Each pack costs $4 and contains 15 cards about America’s most beloved public figures, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. At the end of the voting, we will tally up the sales and donate all the money to one of the candidates, and that candidate is Hillary Clinton.

So they know this is probably not legal, right?
posted by dersins at 11:27 AM on August 11, 2016

Why not?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:29 AM on August 11, 2016

It is if they give it to her Super PAC
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:29 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Kinda hard to imagine CoH didn't consult with lawyers before doing something like this.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:29 AM on August 11, 2016

Ugh. Regarding those Trump Issues videos on his site...

It's exactly what you'd expect. Absolutely no policy details and word salad that doesn't even make sense. "Political Correctness" is an issue, and apparently it's bad because it "takes too much effort and time".

Oh my, you actually watched them? No one provides policy issues in a video form instead of plain (searchable, quotable) text.

It's my lunch break, so I'll provide my replies to the text descriptions of his videos:

1. Former Students Speak Out In Support of Trump University - The recent press attacks upon Trump University have not been an accurate representation of the professionally run school that provided a quality real estate education. Not likely to include any of those who are taking part in the class-action lawsuit you tried to have the lawsuit dismissed.
2. The Establishment - I want to win for the people of this great country. The only people I will owe are the voters. The media, special interests, and lobbyists are all trying to stop me. We won’t let that happen! Except the NRA, they're good people
3. Trade War - Our country is getting ripped off. We need the smartest people negotiating for us! The same people who got my clothing to be made in Thailand and China (Hillary's new anti-Donny ad, which is just David Letterman pointing out all of Donnie's clothing is made elsewhere, while Donny is a guest on his show -- Letterman doesn't like Donny, but that ad is a counter to an ad against her by the GOP
4. Making Deals With Congress - I would love to see the Republican party and everyone get together and unify. When we unify there is nobody who is going to beat us!
5. Law Enforcement Respect - The police in our country do not get respect. Our law enforcement officers deserve our appreciation for the incredible job they do. Except when they kill unarmed, even restrained people. Those cops are assholes who give the rest a really, really, really bad name
6. First Day In Office - What I would do on my first day in office. First, write an essay titled "What I did on my summer campaign," then make a video of me reading it and smirking.
7. Competent Leadership - America needs strong leadership. Politicians can talk but they don’t get things done. I have a strong track record of success and if elected I will do what I have promised to do: ‪#‎MakeAmericaGreatAgain‬! Except when you failed miserably
8. Drug Epidemic - The New Hampshire drug epidemic must stop. If elected POTUS — I will create borders and the drugs will stop pouring in. We will ‪#‎MakeAmericaGreatAgain‬! OK, the NH heroin 'apocalypse' is a real, terrible thing
9. Live Free or Die - Live Free or Die: A motto for the whole country to follow. What, are you really trying to New Hampshire? It's looking like a fight for you to win this swing state
10. The 2nd Amendment - Politicians are trying to chip away at the 2nd Amendment. I won’t let them take away our guns!! Hillary said nothing about taking your guns, despite the nonsense/hype from Faux News
11. Political Correctness - Being politically correct takes too much time. We have too much to get done! Actually, not being an asshole who alienates whole groups of people in a tweet is not that hard, and generally benefits your efforts to bring people together to, I don't know, say win elections
12. Israel - I am very pro Israel. Much Israel. Very pro. So wow.
13. Self Funding - I am self funding my campaign so I don’t owe anything to lobbyists and special interests. I will bring the greatest negotiators and smartest operators to Washington to help Make America Great Again! Self-funded, except for gold-card members of the Donnie J Fanclub and likely Racist and/or Sexist Club
14. Illegal Immigration - If we don’t have borders, we don’t have a country. We need to BUILD A WALL that will keep illegal immigrants out. But we do have borders, and border-region ranchers don't buy your hype. And your border wall talk is scaring Mexican immigrants, which goes against your next point...
15. Competent Leadership - I will unify and bring our country back together. We will be unified, we will be one, we will be happy again. My new motto is "Join Me or Die." Or something. Maybe I'm just kidding, maybe not.
16. Education - I will end common core. It’s a disaster. In it's place, I'll give every child $100 Trump Bux to spend on educational products from the Trump Store, which are all designed by me, so you know it'll make 'em all billionaires.
17. The Military - I will make our Military so big, powerful and strong that no one will mess with us. And if they do mess with us, I'll nuke 'em back to the stone age! 'Cause I can, when I'm president. Take that, Mexico and Canada!
18. Jobs - I will be the greatest job-producing president in American history. I'll create some great jobs ... in Mexico and Thailand, probably. Because I'll need a lot of t-shirts, because every legal American person will get a "Authentic American" shirt, when you get certified as a legal citizen by my new Trump Troops, who are veterans. So jobs for vets! Go USA!
19. Life Changing Experiences - America has been great to me, I want to be great to America. I want to put us back on the right course and Make America Great Again! I was made great by America, even when America wasn't great! But America, you gotta stop punching yourself. Why are you punching yourself?
20. The Economy - $19 trillion of debt and growing is a crushing burden to leave young Americans. So I'll put a bunch of money into the army, which will mean more soldiers and more weapons, so everyone wins!
21. Trump University Truth - The facts on Trump University the media and lying politicians choose to ignore. Irresponsible and dishonest. Trump university was so great, I mentioned it twice! In the beginning and the end!

posted by filthy light thief at 11:30 AM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

What is amazing is about that Cards Against Humanity page is that despite the clear statement that ALL COLLECTED $$$$ TO HILLARY, about $44K has accrued to the blue pack and $41K to the red pack. That's $41,000 from Trump supporters or CAH completists that is destined for HRC.
posted by maudlin at 11:32 AM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Responses to the Hillary Clinton Twitter are like the ultimate "don't scroll down" unfortunately.

I had to stop following Hillary on Instagram because it always showed the worst responses.
posted by threeturtles at 11:33 AM on August 11, 2016

Why not?

I'm assuming they're a corporation, which means they can't donate money to Hillary Clinton's campaign.

They can donate money to a Super PAC that supports Clinton, but that is not what they claim they are going to do.
posted by dersins at 11:34 AM on August 11, 2016

Of the nine people Trump has added to his economic team, one is an economist - who has advocated a return to the gold standard.

Make Bretton Woods great again!

But also:

Trump names Hendricks, Uihlein to economic team

"Diane Hendricks, the richest woman in Wisconsin, had a state income tax bill of zero for 2010, state records show."

And also, from 2012...

"A filmmaker released a video Thursday that shows Gov. Scott Walker saying he would use "divide and conquer" as a strategy against unions.

Walker made the comments to Beloit billionaire Diane Hendricks, who has since given $510,000 to the governor's campaign - making her Walker's single-largest donor and the largest known donor to a candidate in state history."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

"The Vote For Hillary Pack contains 15 cards about Hillary Clinton, who has served our country as Secretary of State, Senator of New York, and First Lady of the United States. ... The Vote for Trump Pack contains 15 cards about Donald Trump, an enormous man who wears three suits at once."
posted by maudlin at 11:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

I doubt most of the people buying the Trump back are Trumpists. Since all the money is going to HRC regardless, I'd definitely want the Trump pack for the added hilarity. If any person merited their own CAH expansion pack, it's Donald Trump.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

That's $41,000 from Trump supporters or CAH completists that is destined for HRC.

Or people who think the Trump pack will be funnier to play with.
posted by EarBucket at 11:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

What is amazing is about that Cards Against Humanity page is that despite the clear statement that ALL COLLECTED $$$$ TO HILLARY, about $44K has accrued to the blue pack and almost $38K to the red pack. That's $38,000 from Trump supporters or CAH completists that is destined for HRC.

Buying the red pack, which is probably extremely funny & insulting, doesn't make someone a Trump supporter.
posted by acidic at 11:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't count any of that $41k as coming from "Trump supporters". Let's be honest, the Trump cards are probably a lot funnier than the Clinton ones. If I were buying a pack (and only one), that's the one I'd go for. Especially knowing it's still supporting Hillary.
posted by Roommate at 11:35 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

How many CAH players are 'older white men with no college degree'?
posted by Devonian at 11:39 AM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

What is amazing is about that Cards Against Humanity page is that despite the clear statement that ALL COLLECTED $$$$ TO HILLARY, about $44K has accrued to the blue pack and almost $38K to the red pack. That's $38,000 from Trump supporters or CAH completists that is destined for HRC.

Emphasis mine.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:39 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

More than 70 Republicans have signed an open letter to Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus urging him to stop spending any money to help Donald Trump win in November and shift those contributions to Senate and House races.

Priebus throws money up in the air and yells "SCRAMBLES!".
posted by srboisvert at 11:39 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I guess very few red card purchases are from Trump supporters. Sad! But the bitching from them on Twitter is glorious.
posted by maudlin at 11:40 AM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'll tell you what demographic CAH is awesome for, though: Parents sitting around while their toddlers have a playdate. It's the perfect game for that scenario.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:41 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just visited my state Democratic Party headquarters in my city and got my info to the Party and the Clinton campaign. I literally walked in the door, got someone's attention, and started the process of getting involved within five minutes.

The state party's volunteer coordinator was at meeting out of town, so the lady showing me around was cautiously like, "So would you be willing to volunteer for Hillary?" I was like, "Ya, totally!" She then gave a big smile and took me down to meet a Clinton staffer. It's striking that the staff seem to expect volunteers not to be enthusiastic about Secretary Clinton.

I signed up online with both orgs but have yet to receive any contact via the internet, so I would strongly encourage anyone who is able to go to the local HQ of the Clinton campaign or your County/State Democratic Party. Just by showing up, you show yourself to be more interested than the average person who signs up and are more likely to be contacted. As a bonus, you will meet other political junkies enthusiasts.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 11:44 AM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

More from the Cards Against Humanity America Votes FAQ:

Are these available internationally? This promotion is only available in the United States. If you don’t currently live in the United States, good.

Why can’t I buy a pack for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein? Just skip the middleman and vote for Trump.

I’m mad and I want to tell you about my political views. Certainly. Please email [e-mail].

heh
posted by numaner at 11:44 AM on August 11, 2016 [70 favorites]

There is Judy Shelton, tho, a member of the Atlas Network, a libertarian-ish organization who's mission is "to strengthen the worldwide freedom movement by identifying, training, and supporting individuals with the potential to found and develop effective independent organizations." In other words, Amway.

YM "Randway." HTH.

Amway Alticor Quixstar (back to) Amway works too.

Amway : christianists :: Koch Industries : libertarianism.

Both of its co-founders, Jay and Richard, were hugely into conservative politics for decades. Rich's son Dick ran for governor of Michigan. Dick's wife Betsy was Michigan GOP chairman for a while. And her maiden name is Prince. Yes, her brother is Erik Prince of Blackwater XE Services Academi infamy.

I will say that the two clans have done a lot of good for the West Michigan community (where I grew up) in terms of philanthropic work and community development. But their involvement in politics beyond the local level is... deeply problematic.

I'm not using their full names. You can google if you're curious.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:45 AM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

ChurchHatesTucker, thanks for the speech summaries, for those of us who couldn't watch.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:46 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's almost as though CAH is the perfect example of non-PC in a reasonable sense. Whereas Trump & his ilk's brand of "non-PC" is such that they can't understand the difference.. Hence thorough bewilderment on their end that CAH would be pro-Hillary. If CAH were *actually* as awful as they presume via the pretense of the game, it wouldn't be funny.

There's a fine thesis in there worthy of a graduate degree, I'd posit.
posted by narwhal at 11:48 AM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

ChurchHatesTucker, thanks for the speech summaries, for those of us who couldn't watch.

We all pitch in where we can.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:52 AM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

What will likely happen in this death spiral is that Republican party in order to have their down-ticket candidates survive will begin educating voters on the importance of voting a split ticket. The result of going from straight ticket to split ticket is that a lot of individual choices will need to be made and that will likely favor Democratic candidates. It will take a lot of discipline spread over a lot of people to ensure all those once Republican votes remain Republican votes.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:55 AM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Nope, I suspect that the Trumpists are now going to accuse CAH of turning "All-PC"/
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:58 AM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

It will take a lot of discipline spread over a lot of people to ensure all those once Republican votes remain Republican votes.
Over my voting years, I've received "slate mailers" from both parties. And I fully expect one third of the Republican slate mailers this fall to have no Presidential candidate at the top... and another third to have Gary Johnson.

It's still too soon for the inevitable mass defection away from Trump (I assumed about 45 days before the election), but that day moves two days closer for every day Dirty Donald speaks.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:03 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's $38,000 from Trump supporters or CAH completists that is destined for HRC.

I saw the clarification and am in no way harping on the intended meaning, but this made me think (as things often do) of Grice's Maxims of communication, insofar as the interesting wrinkle in communication here comes down entirely to including "Trump supporters or..." in a case where readers reasonably conclude it wasn't relevant. A case of saying something that is strictly true ("it could in theory include both CAH fans and Trump supporters") but not communicatively efficient, and, bam: friction.
posted by cortex at 12:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Governor Richardson: Donald Trump Doesn’t Know Foreign Policy | MSNBC
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:08 PM on August 11, 2016

Oh my, you actually watched them? No one provides policy issues in a video form instead of plain (searchable, quotable) text.

Speak for yourself. Here at Tivalasvegas Election HQ we present all our policy positions in straightforward, fully three-dimensional diorama form
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:09 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

"And the marshmallows represent fluffy clouds of reassurance and comfort in the face of adversity."
posted by filthy light thief at 12:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

I convey my policy positions through interpretive dance.
posted by kyrademon at 12:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Personally, I'd assume the "Trump deck" of CAH would be 100% nasty things about Trump (Cards Against Trump), and similarly with Hillary's.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:16 PM on August 11, 2016

Here at Tivalasvegas Election HQ we present all our policy positions in straightforward, fully three-dimensional diorama form

How do you tell all the little Steves apart?
posted by Etrigan at 12:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

someone needs to report back when they get their packs, but I don't think the Hillary ones will be too nasty, though you could probably just use them that way.
posted by zutalors! at 12:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope there's a card that just says "EMAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
posted by stolyarova at 12:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

How do you tell all the little Steves apart?

Number stickers, of course.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can someone clear up this Obama Founded ISIS meme thing for me? Does he mean it (or could he plausibly deny it via wordsalad) as in "Obama's policies in the Middle East led to the creation of ISIS " or doe he mean it as in "Obama literally called up his friend al-Baghdadi and was like, hey, how about we go for that Caliphate thing we've always wanted"?

So here is one of the problems with Trump running for President, we don't know the depths of his ignorance. Does he know what "founded" means? Does he know what ISIS is?

Yesterday he said, "Hillary wants to abolish -- essentially abolish the Second Amendment. By the way, if she gets to pick, if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks."

Does he know what the word abolish means? Prior to this the Republicans were content to say "erode" or "eat at" or "infringe on" but Donald chose the word "abolish."

Does he know what a Constitutional amendment is? I'm not 100% confident he knows what that is exactly.

Does he know that judges cannot abolish Constitutional amendments?

Only if we are confident he knows and understands exactly what he is saying then we can start to ask, is it hyperbole? Is it flat-out lying? Is it a joke?

At this point I'm just ???????
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:21 PM on August 11, 2016 [48 favorites]

I'm Steve. So that's what you call me. That, or His Steveness … Stever … or El Steverino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

He's not ignorant exactly. He just uses strong words indiscriminately, and at the same time thinks that using them gives him magical powers.

If you were to ask Trump what he means by "founded" he would say "I mean 'founded.' I mean he's the founder." And never, between now and the end of time, would you get more of an answer from him. Same with "abolish" or any other word he uses.

He's like those douchenozzles who film themselves asking cops on traffic stops: "Am I being detained?" and saying "I'm not a person, I'm a freeman of the earth." And they think that saying these magic words over and over makes them powerful and free from consequence.

And then they get their asses hauled onto the pavement and tased, which is what I hope the electorate does in metaphorical terms to Trump.
posted by argybarg at 12:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy, I think ts safest to assume he's just saying what will get the strongest reaction out of his audience, without a thought to its coherence or logic. He's like a Markov chain with Pavlovian reponse inputs, programmed to recite a series of words aimed at getting right wing folks to yell loudest at his rallies, thereby triggering his reward centers or whatever.

BENGHAZI EMAILS ABOUT THE 2ND AMENDMENT ISIS STATESRIGHTS
posted by Existential Dread at 12:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Trump is an object lesson in the problems of machine learning

An interesting article on BoingBoing which says, in part, that by tailoring his message in the moment to his rally audience - his most extreme followers - he's progressively making himself less and less palatable to anyone else.
posted by chris24 at 12:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

On the other hand, it really does sound delusional, and might just be the means for the GOP finally removing him from the ticket.
posted by yhbc at 12:30 PM on August 11, 2016

If a walking newspaper comments thread can run for president in 2016, there's no reason weird facebook can't run in 2020. Vote FULL SPACE COMMUNISM running on the FULL SPACE COMMUNISM ticket, comrades!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

On the other hand, it really does sound delusional, and might just be the means for the GOP finally removing him from the ticket.

But how? A Republican lawyer who has advised the Republican National Committee in previous election cycles told Mother Jones that there are zero options for the party to remove Trump. (Mother Jones, Aug. 3, 2016)

The former RNC lawyer said there is a mechanism by which Trump can be replaced, if he voluntarily drops out. Rule 9 of the party's internal rules stipulates that if a presidential or vice presidential nominee leaves the ticket, the 168 members of the RNC—not voters or delegates—would select a new nominee.

posted by filthy light thief at 12:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yep – this has been covered exhaustively in these MeFi threads at this point. There's exactly one way that Donald Trump won't be the GOP candidate for President on the November 8 ballot, and that's if Donald Trump drops out.

(Or if he dies or becomes incapacitated, I suppose.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

> we don't know the depths of his ignorance
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:21 PM on August 11

Is there any evidence that Trump has bothered to read the Constitution yet?

(or have someone paraphrase it to him in words that he actually might possibly understand)
posted by porpoise at 12:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

An interesting article on BoingBoing which says, in part, that by tailoring his message in the moment to his rally audience - his most extreme followers - he's progressively making himself less and less palatable to anyone else.

So, we're kinda watching Tay in real time?
posted by nubs at 12:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

There's exactly one way that Donald Trump won't be the GOP candidate for President on the November 8 ballot, and that's if Donald Trump drops out.

You GOT to know there are pressures that can be brought to bear to cause that to happen, though. Problem is the political will to do it (and deal with the consequences) doesn't exist.

Spineless bastards.
posted by Mooski at 12:38 PM on August 11, 2016

TRUMP: No, I meant he’s the founder of ISIS.
He's not the Founder.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

> Is there any evidence that Trump has bothered to read the Constitution yet?

(or have someone paraphrase it to him in words that he actually might possibly understand

Or watch the appropriate Schoolhouse Rock videos?
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:39 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

How do you tell all the little Steves apart?

Number stickers, of course.

Yes, and also they have different snap-on hair pieces (they are all lego men obviously)

ok bye off to build a health policy diorama in my head for the rest of the day. THANKS METAFILTER
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:39 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Republican party should offer him something of significantly lower value than the Presidency (like a state rep position or something), and tell him that if he doesn't like it, he's free to sue them.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

He's like a Markov chain with Pavlovian reponse inputs

That's the theory that I have been following. Early on in the primaries a reporter described his speeches in front of the crowds. Trump would say something, get a huge cheer and expand on it. Then he would go on and talk about something that was of less interest-- an opinion or policy-- and the crowd would get restless so he would immediately drop that and either pivot back to the popular subject or find a new topic. You tell me. Was Donald polishing his speeches or was he being conditioned by the crowd? I think the reason he hasn't bothered with putting together any real policies is that he only wants to excite his listeners and gather applause so he has been conditioned to avoid anything of substance.

I coached speakers for awhile. If you start to lose your crowd there are things you can do-- you can punch up the language or the body language, modulate the voice or work on eye-contact. Just because a solid policy on education is less exciting than "I'm going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it" doesn't mean that as a Presidential candidate you have to stop talking about your ideas for education reform. Trump never worked through this stuff because he has no interest in governing, his only interest is in being cheered.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:41 PM on August 11, 2016 [41 favorites]

Maybe the Republicans could arrange the world's longest snipe hunt along the Appalachian trail and have him disappear for three months?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:42 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I really would have thought there was a small amount of law that would provide a crowbar to insert into the word "otherwise" and trigger the process. The best and meanest lawyers in the country, and they relied on that little clause to secure their party! Don't cheap out with counsel - it matters.

I expect both major parties will rivet shut any loopholes in the future, in what will become known as Trump Clauses. (That's assuming, of course, that we have a future, despite the current lack of such a clause.)
posted by Countess Elena at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2016

Oh my, you actually watched them? No one provides policy issues in a video form instead of plain (searchable, quotable) text.

I've considered watching them all and transcribing them/copying out the caption text to make them more accessible; I have no idea where I'd post the resulting text, though.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've considered watching them all and transcribing them/copying out the caption text to make them more accessible; I have no idea where I'd post the resulting text, though.

That seems like a bad use of your time. I suggest daydreaming about policy dioramas with me instead.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:45 PM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm Steve. So that's what you call me. That, or His Steveness … Stever … or El Steverino, if, you know, you're not into the whole brevity thing.

"Fuck you, man. You're all Steves and I'm Gomer Fucking Pyle, man? Fuck that. Screw you guys."
posted by octobersurprise at 12:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump neither knows nor cares that what he tells his crowds are lies. It's the exact same strategy he has used for decades to get "co-investors" to sign onto deals that ultimately go broke while he walks away with most of their money.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump accuses Clinton of going to bed after her rallies.
posted by drezdn at 12:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

> There's exactly one way that Donald Trump won't be the GOP candidate for President on the November 8 ballot, and that's if Donald Trump drops out.

> You GOT to know there are pressures that can be brought to bear to cause that to happen, though. Problem is the political will to do it (and deal with the consequences) doesn't exist.

Spineless bastards.

The GOP is falling apart with Donnie as their candidate, but but he's galvanized a certain segment of the population behind him, and that support comes in part because they think "politicians" are the issue. So if Donny drops out, politicians pick the party's candidate. I think many of the current Trumpeters will be solidly #Never[Whoever].

In other words, the GOP is a mess now, but it would be an even bigger mess if Trump was pushed to step down, and then replaced from within the GOP.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:47 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's really a Kobayashi Maru for the GOP at this point.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:51 PM on August 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

drezdn: Trump accuses Clinton of going to bed after her rallies.

Sleep is for the weak.

(And I'm the weakest. I stayed up until midnight to Nicola Cruz until my legs got wobbly, then drove home and was up until 2 AM, and then got up around 6 AM, and I'm a bit woozy now. Sleep would be nice. Sleep is good. People should get more sleep.)
posted by filthy light thief at 12:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump accuses Clinton of going to bed after her rallies.

15 Aug, 2016: "Trump accuses Clinton of enjoying a lovely beverage at the end of a long day."
posted by octobersurprise at 12:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump accuses Clinton of going to bed after her rallies.

To be fair, this is a known weakness of Clinton, who is reliably reported to eat meals and brush her teeth as well
posted by Countess Elena at 12:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [46 favorites]

@MajorGarret (CBS): To standing ovation from evangelical leaders in Orlando @realDonaldTrump [says] if he’s elected POTUS “it may be the only way I get to heaven.”
posted by Going To Maine at 12:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's really a Kobayashi Maru for the GOP at this point.

And Trump asked Putin to Kirk it for him.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

@MajorGarret (CBS): To standing ovation from evangelical leaders in Orlando @realDonaldTrump say if he's elected POTUS “it may be the only way I get to heaven.”

While the rest of the country goes to hell.
posted by zarq at 12:55 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

…those douchenozzles who film themselves asking cops on traffic stops: "Am I being detained?" and saying "I'm not a person, I'm a freeman of the earth."

Just for the record, those are two totally different kinds of things. The first one forces the cop to decide if it's worth it to officially escalate things, because there is a legal definition for detention and if the cop wants to go there then there's going to be paperwork and shit, whereas the other one is straight-up moon law nonsense. Let's please not get "knowing your rights" and "being a conspiracy theorist" mixed up.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:55 PM on August 11, 2016 [54 favorites]

Trump accuses Clinton of going to bed after her rallies.

It's 3AM and your children are safely asleep. But there's a tweet happening somewhere in the world. Do you want a President who is asleep when that tweet is let loose?
posted by dis_integration at 12:56 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Now pay particular attention to this first clause because it's most important. . . . that's the usual clause that's in every contract.

I expect both major parties will rivet shut any loopholes in the future, in what will become known as Trump Clauses. (That's assuming, of course, that we have a future, despite the current lack of such a clause.)

Aaaaah, you can't fool me, there ain't no sanity clause.
 
posted by Herodios at 12:56 PM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

To be fair, this is a known weakness of Clinton, who is reliably reported to eat meals and brush her teeth as well

I bet she flosses, too! Is there no end to her perfidy?
posted by kirkaracha at 12:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

On the other hand, it really does sound delusional, and might just be the means for the GOP finally removing him from the ticket.

Yeah for some reason waking up and seeing "Trump says Obama founded ISIS" was the thing that finally made me think "oh, he actually literally believes in conspiracy theories."

Like, I don't think his dancing around crazy ideas is political manipulation or dogwhistling, which is what I had assumed before. But now I think it's the type of walking up to the edge of consensual reality and then retreating from it that people who are delusional consistently engage in.

I never understood why he got caught up in the whole birther thing back in 2011. Now I think it's because he genuinely believes Obama is not a US citizen.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 12:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Sleep is for the weak.
Trump is boastful of the fact that he gets less than 4 hours of sleep a night. Sleep deprivation does sometimes cause irrational - even psychotic - behavior.

And if there are a Heaven and Hell, there is no doubt that Trump will share a space with all the 'evangelical leaders' ... and just that shared space will be Hell for all of them.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:58 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump: "Hillary puts on her pantsuit one leg at a time." [fake]
posted by peeedro at 1:00 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

And if there are a Heaven and Hell, there is no doubt that Trump will share a space with all the 'evangelical leaders' ... and just that shared space will be Hell for all of them.

My head canon is everybody goes to the same place, and people like Trump get there, sigh heavily and hope they've learned whatever lesson they needed to learn that got them the billet in the first place.
posted by Mooski at 1:01 PM on August 11, 2016

> It's really a Kobayashi Maru for the GOP at this point.

Kobayashi Maru = no-win scenario, intended to be a test of character. Noteworthy in Star Trek for Kirk's cheating.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:03 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

So here is one of the problems with Trump running for President, we don't know the depths of his ignorance. Does he know what "founded" means? Does he know what ISIS is?

Do words mean words? Maybe words mean other words? Is meow word to cat? If gorilla quote Nietzche then is London underground? Why verb? Why punctuation? Is tweet mean truth/untruth? If word have "ough" how to say? Does how you say word have mean? Does mean mean mean or mean mean? Does Trump word but not mean? Sad.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:03 PM on August 11, 2016 [36 favorites]

dis_integration: It's 3AM and your children are safely asleep. But there's a tweet happening somewhere in the world. Do you want a President who is asleep when that tweet is let loose?

SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET IS WRONG! (xkcd, natch)
posted by filthy light thief at 1:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Now I think it's because he genuinely believes Obama is not a US citizen.

oh yeah I always thought that.
posted by zutalors! at 1:04 PM on August 11, 2016

> There's exactly one way that Donald Trump won't be the GOP candidate for President on the November 8 ballot, and that's if Donald Trump drops out.

> You GOT to know there are pressures that can be brought to bear to cause that to happen, though. Problem is the political will to do it (and deal with the consequences) doesn't exist.

Okay, so I agree the RNC isn't going to kick the Pernicious Papaya off the ticket, for lots of reasons, but I think a lot about him resigning. One, because I believe the Papaya to be very thin skinned, and two, I have a bet that he will resign on September 3rd, as I heard at one point Republicans were behind the scenes trying to get him to resign before the end of August. Will this happen? The Papaya truly lives for revenge, and I've been thinking that he's going to really start hating the RNC, so I've got that on my side, but, no I don't think I'm going to win my bet. (Not to mention I lost my last bet as he waited until Tuesday to cause a new yuuuge controversy (2nd amendment), my money was on Monday.)
posted by dawg-proud at 1:06 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm starting to get worried again. There's been some poll tightening. People seem to be all out of outrage over Trump's remarks.
posted by peacheater at 1:09 PM on August 11, 2016

Thanks for the clarification, ZeusHumms.

I'll try to do a better job of avoiding obscure pop-culture references myself. There's very little that's more annoying than an in-joke being used as some kind of hipster shibboleth, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone else. Mea culpa.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:11 PM on August 11, 2016

If you're still looking for a way to horrify convince people that Trump is abhorrent, MLKSHK user Spingo has created a series of three images (so far), each more unsettling than the last: D:, Tromp, and Dinald. [images not technically NSFW but I bet your boss would be like, "What the hell are you looking at?" so ...]
posted by komara at 1:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm starting to get worried again. There's been some poll tightening. People seem to be all out of outrage over Trump's remarks.

This is to be expected, we all need to just keep working to elect Hillary.
posted by drezdn at 1:13 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

> If CAH were *actually* as awful as they presume via the pretense of the game, it wouldn't be funny.

There's a fine thesis in there worthy of a graduate degree, I'd posit.

>Trump is an object lesson in the problems of machine learning

Now that this is a world where academic Trump studies is a thing that makes sense, I eagerly await the sociological study and/or critical race theory examination of Donald Trump's orangeness.
posted by palindromic at 1:13 PM on August 11, 2016

> Do words mean words? Maybe words mean other words? Is meow word to cat? If gorilla quote Nietzche then is London underground? Why verb? Why punctuation? Is tweet mean truth/untruth? If word have "ough" how to say? Does how you say word have mean? Does mean mean mean or mean mean? Does Trump word but not mean? Sad.

VOTE GAVAGAI 2016
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:14 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think we're all getting weirdly acclimated to the outrage. I mean, I heard the Obama/ISIS founder comment yesterday in real time and found myself shrugging it off -- surely he meant that Obama's policies had contributed to its growth. And he said Hillary was a founder of ISIS just the other day.

And then to find out today that he meant it literally. I had this flare of outrage that before long settled into a thought of, OK, he's an idiot, this just goes with every other idiotic thing he's said, just throw it on the pile with the others.
posted by mochapickle at 1:14 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

So here is one of the problems with Trump running for President, we don't know the depths of his ignorance. Does he know what "founded" means? Does he know what ISIS is?

Do words mean words? Maybe words mean other words? Is meow word to cat? If gorilla quote Nietzche then is London underground? Why verb? Why punctuation? Is tweet mean truth/untruth? If word have "ough" how to say? Does how you say word have mean? Does mean mean mean or mean mean? Does Trump word but not mean? Sad.

My Work is Yugely Unappreciated -- by A Trafficone

I is work hard. Very very I hard. Work to always time. Hard working. . . .

Road me e guard. To road. Guard I me autos. Lines guard I road e I working. Guarding to always. Road I me stand always on. Guarding road. . . .

Orange I color. Bright orange color me to are. Am orange to bring autos. Warn orange. Bring color orange autos to warning. Color warn to orange. . . . Bright warning to road autos.

On e road very is danger. Autos they e coming always. Close hit I always e. Autos many. Autos close hit. Me working to I almost auto hit. Autos many e many. Fast autos. Close I. Hit almost. . . .

Important I working. Orange I color. Guard I to autos e road. Important working I road. Vital safe I autos. Work road important.

posted by Herodios at 1:16 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

I’m mad and I want to tell you about my political views. Certainly. Please email [e-mail].

Seriously, I'm the first person to send a message to that EntitledWhining address at CAH?

It is wonderful and trolling.

You just spent precious seconds of your short time here on Earth writing an email to [e-mail].

If you are emailing us because you hate the Democratic Party or the Republican party, there’s always the lemon party.

(Seriously - do NOT click that lemon party link. It's NSFW++)
posted by phearlez at 1:16 PM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yeah, I also shrugged it off because, of course. We in actual reality know that words mean things. That simple truth does not stand in Trump reality. So whatever. It's been another month in scandal-time but four days in real time and my response comes down to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by yasaman at 1:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

huh, that does feel like meth addict land "sleep, man, I have to much to do to sleep"
posted by angrycat at 1:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I eagerly await the sociological study and/or critical race theory examination of Donald Trump's orangeness.

That's just the tanning bed illusion of fitness (the goggle eyes are a giveaway.) As with a lot of his endeavours there's the thinnest veneer of worth at the surface. Meanwhile he won't take his jacket off.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:19 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

MLKSHK user Spingo has created a series of three images (so far), each more unsettling than the last: D:, Tromp, and Dinald.

Monster Factory: 2016 Presidential Campaign Edition
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:19 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

adamgreenfield: "There's very little that's more annoying than an in-joke being used as some kind of hipster shibboleth"

I really don't think a reference to a science fiction film from 1982 falls under the heading of "hipster."
posted by Chrysostom at 1:22 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

there’s always the lemon party

"It wouldn't be a Lemon Party without old Don[g]!"
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yeah, I mean, there's nothing hipster about the Kobayashi Maru. It's Star Trek, for crying out loud. And it's pretty widely known even in non-Trek circles.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I mean it could be "hipster" because words don't have meaning pancakes spaghetti fart.
posted by Tevin at 1:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

a reference to a science fiction film from 1982

Also 2009
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:28 PM on August 11, 2016

OK, bad word choice. Please don't let it be a derail.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:28 PM on August 11, 2016

Then there's the other Kobayashi.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:28 PM on August 11, 2016

Anyway, there's an open MeTa thread about the topic, if you want to discuss further.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the reason he hasn't bothered with putting together any real policies is that he only wants to excite his listeners and gather applause so he has been conditioned to avoid anything of substance.

The bullshitting salesman meets "gazing into the abyss, while being absymal."

And "Hillary goes home and sleeps" is more Trumpian projection, given that we know that Trump is straight on a plane to one of his homes as soon as his events end.
posted by holgate at 1:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jon Stewart gave Betsy McCaughey such an ass kicking on The Daily Show back in 2009 they put the entire extended interview up on their site: Part 1, Part 2
posted by PenDevil at 1:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

Then there's the other Kobayashi

Clicks link, doesn't see picture of Pete Postlethwaite, is disappointed.
posted by Roommate at 1:31 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

If we derail Uncle Cortex is going to drive this thread straight into a lake.

For real though, that Trump/ISIS/Obama thing - it feels like it would be the laughline for a movie. Like if you think of his campaign as a comedy blockbuster, it is a very good goof. The delivery, the timing, everything is just - if this was a film and Will Ferrel were delivering these lines I'd be laughing.
posted by Tevin at 1:31 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Founder of Isis" doesn't mean anything. It's a tag, like "Crooked" Hillary or "Low-Energy" Jeb. Trump had to reiterate it because "Founder of Isis" is the tag. Trump has found that it sticks and creates an emotional impression which usefully influences people. This is one of the hypnotic persuasion techniques which Scott Adams has discussed extensively and which Trump uses a lot. The meaning or even truth of the tags is unimportant; what is important is that you see Obama's picture and can't help thinking "Founder of Isis."

A lot of the seemingly random things Trump says are like this, or they are A/B testing (with applause at his rallies being the judge) for newer and better versions. Trump is also not nearly as smart as he thinks he is and is genuinely ignorant on a lot of topics, but he does know how to sell a used car.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

This is one of the hypnotic persuasion techniques which Scott Adams has discussed extensively and which Trump uses a lot.

Is there negging? I assume there's also negging if it's a grand theory from the notorious MRA and so-called cartoonist.
posted by holgate at 1:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

And the other, other Kobayashi.
posted by The Tensor at 1:36 PM on August 11, 2016

Clicks link, doesn't see picture of Pete Postlethwaite, is disappointed.

*drops coffee cup, sees entire thread replayed in slo-mo*
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

Kobayashi is the 9th most common Japanese surname according to Wikipedia, putting it the same as Rodriguez in the US. So there are a lot of other, other, other Kobayashis.

Lets focus on other Marus.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

There was a social-media joke a month or two ago about Paul Ryan declining to comment on ever-more-ridiculous Trump statements culminating with "If the barista gets your name wrong on your Starbucks cup, that's your new name," and I guess on some level it was only a matter of time before reality surpassed that but I never dreamed it would happen before September.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:42 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Apropos the dropping out discussion, I was just reminded that Trump was going to drive the pace car at the 2011 Indy 500, at the height of the birth-certificate crusade. Enough people were pissed off about it that it quickly became clear that the organizers were going to replace him:

“You’re Fired!” As of Thursday May 5th, 2011, the Facebook campaign had just under 18,000 members and achieved their goal of “Dumping Trump” when the foolish little man stated earlier in the day that he would not step down of his own will, but after it became evident that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway officials were going to do the dirty work for him, he changed his tune and announced a scheduling conflict will prevent him from taking part. That scheduling conflict is apparently his aspirations to the highest office as he ramps up his Presidential bid for 2012. If he didn’t get the hint that he wasn’t wanted at the Indy 500 by most Americans who voiced their opinion on the matter, then wait until he sees his poll numbers.
posted by rp at 1:42 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Now I want video of Fenster reciting Trump speeches.
posted by middleclasstool at 1:43 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

We're better than this.

It's one thing to say "White dudes tend not to recognize how much things suck for everyone else, and how much things used to suck even more, because they haven't had those experiences" and another thing to put down white dudes just for being white dudes, as though the whole race and gender were inherently inferior.

I know what you guys mean, but as we're seeing this year, words matter, rhetoric matters.

Yea, but then you can't get that sweet ass zinger soundbyte of a mic drop tweet in there.

I've struggled repeatedly at length in how to phrase this, but the past few threads have really made me feel super alienated from this site a bunch of times... And I'm not even a white dude.

We ARE better than this, and we should be. But I've seen so many 25 cent quips like this and "because sexism, duh" that gets 75 likes or whatever. I know everyone's burned out and reaching for the most base level snark but... Holy shit, can we at least try not to go there?

It's just completely disheartened me in participating at all. I read the threads, and this isn't even some emotional-resources-depleted thing... It's a cheap shot hostility thing.

Punching up is fun and cool and all but when the cheapest laziest shots are constantly rewarded, it makes for a boring hostile discourse that's pulled straight from the most heated Twitter beefs and Facebook rant reply fights. Is that what people want from here now?

and sorry if this is too site-whine or meta-y... But it's honestly burned me out. And I know it's not just me.
posted by emptythought at 1:44 PM on August 11, 2016 [25 favorites]

To be fair, this is a known weakness of Clinton, who is reliably reported to eat meals and brush her teeth as well

In a weird way, I feel like some of Trump's attacks on Clinton actually end up humanizing her in direct contrast to the GOP's usual line of attack that she is an emotionless robot.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 1:44 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile here in Hawaii, State Lawmaker Obtains TRO Against Republican House Candidate.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:44 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is a total derail, but did you know that in the 1989 novel The Kobayashi Maru by Julia Ecklar, the book describes how Kirk reprogrammed the simulation, and it was that the Klingons immediately become apologetic and nervous and deferential when they hear Kirk referred to by name.

Kirk's defense was that he expected by the time he was captain his reputation would be such that this was how Klingons actually would respond to him.
posted by maxsparber at 1:45 PM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

> I'll try to do a better job of avoiding obscure pop-culture references myself. There's very little that's more annoying than an in-joke being used as some kind of hipster shibboleth, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone else. Mea culpa.

Okay but also one of the reasons why Internet discourse norms are super strange but also super compelling is that the ready availability of google/wikipedia/etc for all conversation participants allows for a densely allusive style that can sometimes be used to draw unexpected connections, and also can sometimes pack huge amounts of information (above and beyond in-group/out-group signaling) into relatively short sets of references, all while also remaining loose and conversational.

It's very complex. I recall on reading a comment in an earlier election thread noting that some of the standard references here are sort of like Cockney rhyming slang in structure, since they work through requiring the reader to intuit a missing second term linking the thing said and the intended reference. I think this was said in reference to how on Metafilter, it makes sense to respond to mention of Martin O'Malley by announcing "Chaos is a ladder!" To unpack this, the reader has to figure out that:

1. Martin O'Malley was the inspiration for Mayor Carcetti on The Wire and,
2. The guy who played Carcetti also plays sinister brothel owner Littlefinger on Game of Thrones, who at one point while soliloquizing about his schemes announced "chaos isn't a pit! Chaos is a ladder!"

The only reason it works at all is that:

1. the institution of favorites identifies references that a reasonable number of people here get, signaling which references probably make sense somehow, and,
2. if you see "chaos is a ladder" as a heavily-favorited comment but don't know why, you can google for "Martin O'Malley" "Chaos is a ladder" and find other instances of the joke on the web as a whole.

All told though it's a kind of nutso way of speaking in public. It's a little bit similar in tone to the densely allusive shorthand that long-term couples or very old friends can slip into, but it's necessarily performed in and among a community rather than among intimates.

Historians and literary scholars of the future are going to haaaaate puzzling over documents from this time period, because we more or less all talk like Tristram Shandy right now.

tl;dr: Uzani. His army. Shaka, when the walls fell. Darmok and Jalad, at Tenagra.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:50 PM on August 11, 2016 [84 favorites]

This is a total derail, but did you know that in the 1989 novel The Kobayashi Maru by Julia Ecklar

I love that book. It's also way more believable than the past week, so... there's that.
posted by mordax at 1:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Confession: I didn't know Darkest Timeline was a Community thing until today
posted by theodolite at 1:55 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Confession: I didn't know Darkest Timeline was a Community thing until today.

... that's two of us.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:56 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well of course, you don't know it when you're in it.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

douchenozzles who film themselves asking cops on traffic stops: "Am I being detained?"

[That] forces the cop to decide if it's worth it to officially escalate things

At the risk of a total derail, it is in fact a stupid question in the context of a traffic stop, where the answer is an easy "Yes", seeing as how a traffic stop is intrinsically an invocation of police powers to compel a driver's cooperation.

The place where it can be a necessary and useful tool is in the context of a quasi-interrogation, where police start an interaction with a citizen without making it explicitly clear whether they are invoking police powers (which they aren't generally supposed to do without some sort of cause), or whether they're just talking at you and hoping you're too cowed to realize you're not obliged to cooperate.
posted by jackbishop at 1:58 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

But I've seen so many 25 cent quips like this and "because sexism, duh" that gets 75 likes or whatever. I know everyone's burned out and reaching for the most base level snark but... Holy shit, can we at least try not to go there?

I understand you don't want to be whitewashed (no pun intended) with all white dudes, which is what you were replying to way back up there.

But there's a deep, deep wave of sexist underpinnings behind so many of the "criticisms" against HRC. It's a structural, historical thing. When someone says "because sexism" -- it's almost certainly because there is deep sexism there, and identifying it, calling it out, is KEY to fighting it. It's not base level snark. It's crucially important work.

And of course women get flack for -how- they call it out ... our tone just isn't right, is it?

So yeah, expect that to keep coming.
posted by Dashy at 1:58 PM on August 11, 2016 [59 favorites]

People seem to be all out of outrage over Trump's remarks.

If outrage is waning, then mockery seems to be on the rise. Always a caricature of himself, Trump seems to be making that obvious to a wider and wider circle of people. Being an angry crazy table-flipper (┻━┻ ︵ ¯\(ツ)/¯ ︵ ┻━┻) hasn't been a wildly successful strategy so far and being an impotent, hyperbolic, angry table-flipper isn't likely to be more successful. I think we watch him decompensate over the next few months. It ain't gonna be pretty.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:59 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Tristram Shandy
Now you're speaking my hipster-shibboleth language.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:00 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's just completely disheartened me in participating at all. I read the threads, and this isn't even some emotional-resources-depleted thing... It's a cheap shot hostility thing.

I get where you're coming from, and I'll shut up about it right after this, but I guess my take is there are few enough opportunities Out There to get those shots out of your system that I'm willing to read (and outspokenly agree with) them In Here.
posted by Mooski at 2:01 PM on August 11, 2016

Can you folks please move the talk about how much punching-up and snark is acceptable over to MeTa?
posted by tonycpsu at 2:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

I sense something. A great disturbance in the Steves.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I looked in my recent activity and thought this was that recent metatalk thread about how there are too many weird jokes in this thread
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

>> Tristram Shandy
> Now you're speaking my hipster-shibboleth language.

yeah the idea is to just sort of indiscriminately interleave references from different contexts and different perceived status levels so that you look a little bit like an insider — but a very weird insider — to everyone.

It's less of a means of ingroup signaling and more a cultural "trade jargon" between different, shifting, intersecting sets of in-groups.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

the 1989 novel The Kobayashi Maru by Julia Ecklar

She's an author, too? I know her as one of the better filksingers.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:06 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

(btw the link text in my last comment was a reference to The Star Wars, a science fiction movie from 1977 about a boy with telekinetic powers who has a difficult relationship with his father, a space wizard)
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [46 favorites]

Because yesterday we had a round of what-if-Clinton-tacks-to-the-center:

While Wooing Republicans, Clinton Sticks to Progressive Policy

What economic policy concessions might Hillary Clinton offer up to woo Republicans? If her speech Thursday in Warren, Michigan is any indication, the answer is: Nothing.

In her first major economic address since her campaign began actively courting the Republicans turned off by Donald Trump, Clinton made no major pivot to the ideological center.

[...]

Clinton has paid no price for leftward shift, since Trump is more interested in litigating her character than her policy in any kind of traditionally ideological way. Trump's own rhetoric on taxes and spending have undercut his and other Republicans' ability to tag Clinton as, say, a tax-and-spend liberal.

Republicans siding with Clinton are doing so in spite of her policy, not because of it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:08 PM on August 11, 2016 [39 favorites]

> I looked in my recent activity and thought this was that recent metatalk thread about how there are too many weird jokes in this thread

okay maybe this is actually just a side-effect of the grim reality that thinking about literally anything not-Trump at this point is more rewarding than thinking about whatever new atrocious humiliating thing the orange manchild-patriarch of a family of grifters has done in the past 12 hours.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:08 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

How can this contest be anywhere this close? Sometimes I get the strange feeling that this may just be the prelude to US Civil War 2.0
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 2:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

so this is interesting:

Dozens of Republicans to urge RNC to cut off funds for Trump


(upshot: 70 signatures telling the rnc to cut bait and redirect funds down-ballot)

what a tweest!
posted by murphy slaw at 2:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This talk of how the only way to remove Trump as the official Republican candidate is to get him to quit of his own accord is reminding me of the climax to the second Ace Attorney game. So, spoilers if you haven't played it, but the premise is that Phoenix Wright's assistant Maya has been kidnapped by a hit man, and she'll be killed if Phoenix doesn't get a guy named Matt Engarde a not guilty verdict in a particular murder trial. Matt Engarde is a beloved TV celebrity, so there should be no problem with that, right? Of course, not only is he the hit man's client, but is in fact a total scumbag with an obvious motive for the killing. Phoenix has to engage in all kinds of sleazy lawyer tactics to deflect suspicion away from his client and onto an innocent woman, in order to buy enough time to figure out how to both save Maya and keep Matt from getting away scot-free. The solution comes down to one of two, seemingly impossible strategies: either get the hit man to break off his contract with Matt, or get Matt to want a guilty verdict. Incredibly, Phoenix pulls off both at the same time by presenting the hit man with a video that Matt secretly recorded of the killing, with the intention of using it to blackmail the hit man later. This causes the hit man to break his contract with Matt and swear revenge against him, which in turn causes Matt to beg for a guilty verdict so he's safe in prison.

So, if we were to explicate this allegory, Matt would be Trump, Phoenix would be Republican elites like Reince Priebus, the hit man would be the Republican base, Maya would be parts of the GOP that are vulnerable to far-right opposition, and the innocent woman (Adrian) is Hillary. We can also think of the contract between Matt and the hit man as being like the way in which Trump's extreme supporters are inspired by his vague rhetoric to harass and assault their opponents. This simile actually works quite nicely, since just as the client of a hit man is equally responsible for the murder, Trump is responsible for the violence he inspires among his followers. The murder, then, is the death of political discourse and the rise of fascism in America, which the Republicans nonsensically wish to pin on Hillary, and the verdict of the trial is the result of the election, which is closely linked to the question of whether the noxious hatred unleashed by Trump makes him unfit for the presidency.

What lesson, then, are we to take from this? If the way to defeat Matt Engarde was to prove to the hit man that Matt had betrayed him all along, the way to defeat Trump is to prove to his supporters that he's actually working against them. Once the damage to our democracy has been done and Trump has executed his revenge against the establishment that never accepted him, the only use he has for his supporters is to make millions of dollars from a bunch of suckers. If the Trumpeteers can be convinced of that fact, they will turn their hatred towards him, and Trump will finally be vanquished.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:19 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

The 70-Republicans thing came up a little earlier and the consensus seemed to be that it was just the latest, and weakest, incarnation of the #nevertrump movement. "70 Republicans" is not that many Republicans, and by and large they don't seem to be people with any real sway in the Party. A petition is just a petition, doesn't mean it goes anywhere.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:22 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

The bit with the Kobayashi Maru test has an organization (Starfleet) led by a blustering leader (Kirk) hack the computers (reprogram the scenario) and ends up winning.

Except replace those with GOP, Trump, and 'dump emails on Wikileaks' instead.

Forgive me if I'm not enamored with the comparison in this case and prefer the term 'Watergated'.
posted by fragmede at 2:22 PM on August 11, 2016

I wrote a stupid thing and it's too long for a non-obnoxious comment and I didn't know what else to do with it so I made my first throwaway tumblr in a while: Trumpstitution.

So far, and probably for all time because I can't imagine tackling the rest of the text, it's just the preamble of the Constitution, exploded by an order of magnitude from the original's 52 words of concision in the rhetorical mode of Trump giving a rambling stump speech.

I resent Trump taking up this much space in my brain.
posted by cortex at 2:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [40 favorites]

I've considered watching them all and transcribing ...
That seems like a bad use of your time. I suggest daydreaming about policy dioramas with me instead.

No no no, this is hilarious fun!

I found a nice app that will grab the text from the closed captions. After stripping out the timestamps, his entire page on The Issues, including the intro sentence/paragraph text from his site, is less than 4000 words long.

That also includes the two videos about Trump University. Strip those out, and it's under 2500. And they're obviously grabbed from some speechifying he did in New Hampshire, because he talks specifically about that state and nothing else in a few of them. (He's gonna build a wall and that's gonna stop drugs from pouring into New Hampshire!)

How else would I discover the details of Trump's strong stance on the military:

I'm going to make our military so big, so powerful, so strong that nobody, absolutely nobody, is going to mess with us. We're going to take care of our vets and we're going to get rid of Isis. We're going to get rid of 'em fast.

And you know he's got the economy covered:

One of the things I'm going to do, and largely with our great tax plan where everybody's taxes is going down, we're going to grow our economy. We have to get rid of the 19 trillion dollars in debt. So unfair, so totally unfair to our young people. We are not going to leave you with that burden.

posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm starting to get worried again. There's been some poll tightening.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Only look at composite polls.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:25 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lol, the childcare programs Trump said he had for his employees? Actually just for guests at his hotels.
posted by chris24 at 2:28 PM on August 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

The Upshot: Clinton has 1023 ways to win; Trump has 1 way to win. Missouri and South Carolina are now on the NYT's list of competitive states.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:28 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

The US Civil War had devoted leaders on either side. Donnie is not going to try to lead any part of the US to separate, let alone actually fight on a large scale. Inciting violence is not the start of a civil war. Chanting "lock them up" about "the media" is not the start of a Civil War.

This is real, ugly civil strife, but it is not the beginning of a war. If that was going to happen, it would have come from the teabaggers, but they were busy fighting against the GOP establishment and have fallen from a national movement to more local efforts. last November, Forbes said the Tea Party isn't dead yet, while back in 2013 Matt Taibbi summed it up as such: "At root, the Tea Party is nothing more than a them-versus-us thing." Less government spending ... on them. Them-vs-us gets you to a Civil War, but you also need someone to lead an actual fight.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Upshot: Clinton has 1023 ways to win; Trump has 1 way to win. Missouri and South Carolina are now on the NYT's list of competitive states.

In other words, Trump has to glitch the game so hard he can use controller input to write data to RAM in order to win, whereas Clinton can just stand in the corner and spam fireballs
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

This is real, ugly civil strife, but it is not the beginning of a war. If that was going to happen, it would have come from the teabaggers,

What is the basis for this assertion that the Tea Party's failure to bring about a civil war means that the alt-right/Trump faction can't succeed? Of course we're talking about a lot of the same people belonging to both movements, but it seems to me that a political revolution paid for by establishment GOP money that was very much focused on winning seats in state houses and Congress to bring about pro-millionaire economic policies is a very different animal than an actor from outside the political establishment coming in and telling supporters to beat the shit out of protestors and media figures.

Just because Trump isn't an effective leader doesn't mean he can't be a very effective catalyst.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:35 PM on August 11, 2016

Trump Cites Iraq Withdrawal He Passionately Supported to Say Obama “Founded ISIS”

But lost in Trump’s immediate comments is that, for years, he pushed passionately and forcefully for the same immediate troop withdrawal from Iraq. In interview after interview in the later 2000s, Trump said American forces should be removed from Iraq.

posted by kirkaracha at 2:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Asked directly whether Trump's businesses offered child care to employees [ed. because Trump said they do], his presidential campaign responded with a statement from Jill Martin, vice president and assistant general counsel at the Trump Organization.

"The Trump Organization is very proud of the family-friendly environment it fosters throughout its portfolio," she said. "The policies and practices allowing employees to enjoy a healthy work-life balance vary from property to property. We take an individualized approach to helping employees manage family and work responsibilities."

So that's an awful lot of words to say "no we do not offer child care."
posted by zachlipton at 2:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [34 favorites]

Civil War in a 19th Amendment sort of way.
posted by effluvia at 2:37 PM on August 11, 2016

Oh man the Preamble to the Trumpstitution is fabulous. Well done!

For those who memorized the Preamble [real] in 8th grade, but have forgotten it in the intervening , er, years, here it is again, for comparison:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

(I know I said it was fabulous, and it is! But I also think that last 'graf is too poetic by half to have been uttered by Trump himself.)
posted by notyou at 2:39 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

On the news front, in more very good news the 4th circuit has struck down 40 legislative districts in N. Carolina as racially gerrymandered. In bad news, they stay that way for the 2016 general election.

And Rience Priebus has actually told Trump he's concerned about the direction and impact of his campaign.

To me, the real challenge these days is not Trump, who is not done imho losing ground in the polls, but the consistently negative media treatment of HRC. She's put out a very positive, policy driven message in every campaign appearance, but you'd never know it from reading the news or watching it.
posted by bearwife at 2:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

To start a war, what they will need is resources and a geographic base. We joke about Jesusland, but on the ground the red states are fragmented, just as the blue ones are. The far right has cannon fodder and cannons, but where will it resupply? It might peel off renegade sheriffs or military mutineers, but where would their infrastructure come from?
posted by Countess Elena at 2:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

More importantly, how would they maintain any infrastructure at all once the flow of tax dollars from blue states is cut off?
posted by dersins at 2:43 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

History kind of shows that when the conservative parts of the US fight the liberal parts of the US... the liberal parts end up winning

and then afterwards the conservative parts quietly win the peace
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

More importantly, how would they maintain any infrastructure at all once the flow of tax dollars from blue states is cut off?

And - if we learned nothing else from the Malheur Wildlife Refuge Occupation, it's that a lot of these self-styled self-sufficient rugged individualists can't even manage a basic latrine setup.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:47 PM on August 11, 2016 [30 favorites]

I mean to be fair I couldn't manage a basic latrine setup either.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:48 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

At the risk of a total derail, it is in fact a stupid question in the context of a traffic stop, where the answer is an easy "Yes", seeing as how a traffic stop is intrinsically an invocation of police powers to compel a driver's cooperation.

It's a little fuzzier than that, though. The stop is a detention but a number of cases have turned on a citizen needing to express a desire to end the encounter. "Am I being detained" would qualify, and it would matter if you were dealing with an issue like a called police dog where there's an (imprecise) ticking clock.

Additionally, when you have lower-court judges making statements like

the court nevertheless concluded that prior to the frisk the detention had “evolved into a separate, consensual encounter stemming from an unrelated investigation by Trevizo of Johnson’s possible gang affiliation,”

in Arizona v Johnson, you need to repeatedly assert that hey I'd kinda like to go. Because I guess that lower court justice thinks citizens, after being pulled over, suddenly get an interest in just socializing with cops by the side of the road.

However you are mostly right - the real point of the question is - once they say yes - to then ask them to articulate their reasonable suspicion for why you've been stopped. If you don't then they can just make some shit up at a later time if a complaint goes somewhere.
posted by phearlez at 2:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Pence blames media for Trump's 'Obama founded ISIS' flap:

“The media’s talking today about another controversy over semantics,” Pence said at a town hall here. “Let’s be very clear: It was Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton who helped undo all the hard fought gains in Operation Iraqi Freedom that our soldiers won and secured that nation."

Pence continued: "When President Obama became president, it’s important to remember, that Iraq was essentially stable and it was Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton that withdrew American forces precipitously without what’s called a status of forces agreement, and they created the very vacuum in which ISIS was able to be spawned and conjured up as it were, compromising large areas of Iraq and bringing violence to that part of the world, to our allies in Europe and inspiring violence here at home.”

1) Trump was asked if that was what he meant and he said no, he meant that Obama founded ISIS.

2) President Bush signed the Status of Forces Agreement that set December 31, 2011, as the withdrawal date.
Some people criticize Obama for renegotiating the agreement, but ending the Iraq War was one of the major reasons he was elected.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I mean to be fair I couldn't manage a basic latrine setup either.

The difference being you're not trying to overthrow and destroy the civil government and infrastructure that obviates the need for your own personal latrine.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 2:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I mean to be fair I couldn't manage a basic latrine setup either.

I couldn't off the top of my head, but I bet if I had an internet connection and all the time in the world, like they did, I could and would figure it out.
posted by msalt at 2:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

I mean to be fair I couldn't manage a basic latrine setup either.

You just need a backhoe and a literal ancient Indian burial ground.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

if you have a toilet seat cover with yellow fringe, any place you set it lawfully becomes an Admiralty Latrine and you can totally do your business there and nobody can stop you
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [73 favorites]

I keep watching the forecast at 538 (the polls-only, I'm not a masochist) and waiting for the day when Texas flips from pink to light blue. Right now it's the third-least-safe Republican-leaning state in the model, after South Carolina and Missouri. Can you even imagine what it would mean if Texas went Democrat in the presidential election this year? It's the keystone of the Republican electoral college, in the same way that California is for the Democrats—reliably partisan and with a huge number of electors. But demographics in Texas have been trending away from the Republican party for a while now, and while the GOP was predicted to hang on for at least a few more cycles, maybe Trump will do badly enough to make this the year that it breaks.

It would be such a crushing blow to the morale of the Republican party if they lost Texas, and I can only imagine that the DNC would pounce on that opening like a donkeytiger, pumping hundreds of millions of dollars into the state in the hopes of keeping it. The electoral map would look very different with both California and Texas as blue states. Will it happen? I don't know, and despite my speculations I don't really know what the long-term consequences would be, either. But I do know it would be a big deal, and something to crow about for Democratic partisans. My squeals of glee will be heard all the way from the Charles River to the Rio Grande, should this come to pass.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:59 PM on August 11, 2016 [31 favorites]

BUT they do put huge pressure on Senate candidates like Toomey, Ayotte, and McCain. Embrace Trump? Cut bait? The longer the polls say +10 Hillary, the more fractured the GOP will get.

Vulnerable GOP Sen.: Clinton Poses Bigger Threat To The U.S. Than Trump":

When asked on Thursday morning which presidential nominee poses a bigger threat to the United States security, Sen. Pat Toomey (R-PA) said that Hillary Clinton poses a bigger threat than Donald Trump, citing the former secretary of state's foreign policy record.

"I’ve said Hillary Clinton is completely, permanently unacceptable. We have seen her in office. We have seen what she did. In addition to jeopardizing classified intimation that jeopardizes our security, we’ve seen the decisions that she has made, whether it’s in Libya, whether it is the incredibly failed Russian reset, whether it is, you know, lying to the families of the men who were killed at Benghazi," he said on the Philadelphia radio station WPTH's "Chris Stigall Show."

posted by palindromic at 3:00 PM on August 11, 2016

From the article bearwife linked just above:

Postponing the 2016 legislative elections "would cause significant and undue disruption to North Carolina's election process," Wynn wrote. "Nonetheless, plaintiffs, and thousands of other North Carolina citizens, have suffered severe constitutional harms stemming from defendants' creation of 28 district racially gerrymandered in violation of the equal protection clause."

I get the why of this, but isn't the court basically saying "OK, these legislators are being elected in a way that violates the Constitution but meh they can deal with it next election cycle."

Can the next session of the legislature of North Carolina really be considered legitimate under these conditions?

I mean I recognize that no election is going to be perfectly democratic, and certainly there's an argument to be made that the huge swathes of Americans who were functionally or legally disenfranchised for the first 200ish years of the Republic cast a shadow on all the legislative actions taken during that time. (But that way lies moon-law insanity; we can't retroactively invalidate legislation on that scale without utter chaos.)

But a court just said that an upcoming election will violate the Equal Protection clause. It is known.

Is that... not a big deal? Is postponing the election not considered a simpler remedy than going ahead with an officially tainted election process?
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:00 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

To make a basic latrine, dig a long trench about a foot wide and a foot deep. Poop in one end, and cover it up. Keep pooping and covering until you've reached the other end, then dig a new ditch.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

“The media’s talking today about another controversy over semantics,” Pence said at a town hall here.

This shit drives me fucking crazy, this being all dismissive about "semantics."

Semantics is the study of meaning, asshole. It is kind of a big fucking deal.
posted by dersins at 3:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [54 favorites]

Of the nine people Trump has added to his economic team, one is an economist - who has advocated a return to the gold standard.

And among the more notable science advisers include the Time Cube guy, The Last Free Range Ptolemaic Epicyclists, and the Phlogiston Phanatic.
posted by tclark at 3:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Metafilter: Poop in one end, and cover it up. Keep pooping and covering until you've reached the other end, then dig a new ditch.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

Poop in one end, and cover it up. Keep pooping and covering until you've reached the other end, then dig a new ditch. make a new election thread.
posted by mazola at 3:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [64 favorites]

and the Phlogiston Phanatic.

You forgot Flat Earthers.
posted by porpoise at 3:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This shit drives me fucking crazy, this being all dismissive about "semantics."

And thus, "asslighting" was born.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:06 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Emily Stephenson at Reuters: “Ex-Trump staffer sues campaign, alleges gun incident in North Carolina”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:06 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

prize bull octorok: "In other words, Trump has to glitch the game so hard he can use controller input to write data to RAM in order to win, whereas Clinton can just stand in the corner and spam fireballs"

"Trump needs food BADLY!"
posted by Chrysostom at 3:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

More details from Meg Wagner at The New York Daily News: “Donald Trump’s former North Carolina campaign manager, accused of pulling gun on three staffers, quickly resigns from new post”
posted by Going To Maine at 3:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Is there negging? I assume there's also negging if it's a grand theory from the notorious MRA and so-called cartoonist.

Ha-ha. The reason I take Scott Adams seriously when he talks about Trump's persuasion techniques is that Adams is such an asshole. He went to the trouble to learn all these manipulative methods because he was an asshole. He overstates a lot of things (but then he freely admits using those same techniques himself and sometimes points out what he just did). And being MRA or a cartoonist with poor drawing skills (which he also admits) does not mean one doesn't understand persuasion. (Note that "persuasion" is the current euphemism for what Edward Bernays called "propaganda" when he invented it.)

The reason most of us don't recognize persuasion when it's being used against us is that we aren't assholes and don't care to learn, or believe something that sounds so stupid couldn't possibly work. Unfortunately it works best on those who don't believe in it, and the best way to defend against it is to be aware of how the techniques work. One can easily imagine that Trump has become very good at deploying persuasive flourishes on the fly in the course of his career, which has mostly been about convincing people to do things for him that are against their own interests.

Adams also writes that Hillary has recently hired advisors of her own who are more cognizant of persuasion techniques, which is why she has almost completely abandoned talking about policy, and this has caused him to temper his prediction of a Trump landslide. Adams now thinks Trump will have to switch up techniques, but he's shown now inclination to do that, possibly because he's never faced someone before who was meeting him with equally well calibrated bullshit.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:10 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Are we having a latrine derail or detail here? And will the mods lose their shit if we keep it up? 'Cuz then we might need the latrine detail.
posted by nubs at 3:11 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sort it out quick or you're gonna get KP too.
posted by cortex at 3:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

by the way I thought you all should know I had an Egg McMuffin today, and it's pretty much completely because of this thread, so don't let anyone tell you [too lazy to scroll up] whasisname hasn't had an impact on this election season
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

I'm sure that's what's going on in Scott Adams's head, but HRC's speech today was old school wonkery.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:13 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Are we having a latrine derail or detail here? And will the mods lose their shit if we keep it up? 'Cuz then we might need the latrine detail.

I dunno but I appear to have detached myself from the hive mind again since I am on the North Carolina gerrymandering thing and all around me are ditches of poo
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:13 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Are those ditches full of poo at least 90m and downgrade from any food prep facility, and at least 30m from any water source? Because if not, they're not up to regs.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

“Ex-Trump staffer sues campaign, alleges gun incident in North Carolina”

TRUMP: Promote this man

MANAFORT: I think we should just let this one lie

TRUMP: No. I want him on the campaign trail with me

MANAFORT: Given there's a pending lawsuit we really have no choice but to--

TRUMP: Is it too late to replace Pence?
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Guys I have special persuasive techniques that are incredibly effective on you, unless you are aware of them (i.e. admit I have special persuasive techniques). So either you acknowledge I have special persuasive techniques, or lol ur a mere puppet to my powers, which is it?
posted by nom de poop at 3:16 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Guys I have special persuasive techniques that are incredibly effective on you, unless you are aware of them (i.e. admit I have special persuasive techniques). So either you acknowledge I have special persuasive techniques, or lol ur a mere puppet to my powers, which is it?
posted by nom de poop

So why do I suddenly have this weird desire to dig a latrine?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

The thing to keep in mind with outrage fatigue and Trump is that every day, there's a new group of people tuning in. Right now the numbers are small because we still have time left but every day until Election Day it'll snowball a little bit more and more people will start paying attention. Those of us who are in the loop may be burned out on this seemingly endless stream of nonsense, but that doesn't even matter, because the arrival of each one of those newcomers is an opportunity for someone to have their preconceived notions confirmed, and by all evidence so far, you can count on Trump to be there to confirm them.
posted by feloniousmonk at 3:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Something has convinced Scott Adams that maybe his Manly Hero isn't going to have a landslide victory, so he's constructing a story whereby Hillary will succeed by yielding to Scott Adams' Brilliant Techniques.

As for hypnotism and the powers of suggestion, that stuff is entertaining when Derren Brown does it but really it's 95% bullshit.
posted by argybarg at 3:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Adams also writes that Hillary has recently hired advisors of her own who are more cognizant of persuasion techniques, which is why she has almost completely abandoned talking about policy, and this has caused him to temper his prediction of a Trump landslide.

*eyeroll*

Bullshitter tempers his bullshit prediction with some bullshit equivocation. He can't simply admit that he was wrong because, y'know, certified genius.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 3:25 PM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

Does anyone else feel shell-shocked still by the fact that this is actually happening? I can put it out of my mind for a few hours at a time, and then I think again...Donald Trump is the GOP nominee. The GOP nominee for President is calling for the assassination of his opponent, and/or her jailing. An American politician is calling for a religious ban. A madman (who again...is Donald Trump) has a much higher than negligible chance of being put in charge of the most powerful military on earth, and a bureaucracy that must work smoothly or else the entire country grinds to a halt.

And Prince is dead.

I mean, just...what the fuck? If I think about it too hard I just start crying.
posted by sallybrown at 3:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [58 favorites]

Metafilter: Poop in one end, and cover it up. Keep pooping and covering until you've reached the other end, then dig a new ditch

I think it's too soon for a new election thread, personally.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Well, oddly, it was not all that long ago that people here were complaining that Hillary had stopped talking about policy. So make of it what you will. But if you don't think propaganda techniques work, don't you wonder why corporations spend billions of dollars on nonspecific advertising ("Have a Coke and a smile!") and putting stickers on NASCAR racers?
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:28 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Adams also writes that Hillary has recently hired advisors of her own who are more cognizant of persuasion techniques, which is why she has almost completely abandoned talking about policy

Except her speech today was policy, policy, policy. The reason the Clinton campaign has stopped attacking Trump policies with any kind of specificity is because there are no Trump policies advocated with clarity or consistency. It's just bullshit. You might as well try to fill a bucket with a cloud.

Adams wants to be vindicated in... something when he's merely offering a slightly different kind of bullshit that appeals to a slightly different corner of Reddit that's all about pop-psych 'techniques' ('social interaction for the antisocial', if you like) than the corner that's all about white nationalist rage.
posted by holgate at 3:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

sallybrown:

In a way I'm glad to hear you say this, because it's possible to experience genuine distress about this and think you're alone.

You're not alone.
posted by argybarg at 3:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [25 favorites]

One thing that has been bugging me for the last couple of days -- and this is sooo ancient no doubt everyone has forgotten it by now-- Donald Trump swore up and down he was going to have the best convention ever. He promised it would be huge and at "Winner's Night" there were going to be all these amazing sports figures and Donald Trump was going to give his acceptance speech in the sports arena. Does anyone remember that? Was I just dreaming?

The only reason I bring this up is his fans believe him when he says he is going to "Make America Great Again." They are a little fuzzy on the details but they believe he will deliver. Why? Why would anybody watch that tragically bad convention and think Trump could deliver a day old pizza? Surely this was a good test and he failed spectacularly.

I know. Nobody cares and it won't convince anyone but it is something that's been bugging me.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [38 favorites]

But if you don't think propaganda techniques work, don't you wonder why corporations spend billions of dollars on nonspecific advertising ("Have a Coke and a smile!") and putting stickers on NASCAR racers?

That's not what Scott Adams is talking about. He's talking about neurolinguistic programming and hypnotic suggestion and so forth. If Trump and his advisers want to waste their time with that I encourage them to do so.
posted by argybarg at 3:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Why? Why would anybody watch that tragically bad convention and think Trump could deliver a day old pizza? Surely this was a good test and he failed spectacularly.

I think a lot of this has to do that the main reason to support Trump is "Fuck you, I support Trump." Fuck you is a surprisingly powerful motivating factor to a large portion of humans I guess.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

Bullshitter tempers his bullshit prediction with some bullshit equivocation. He can't simply admit that he was wrong because, y'know, certified genius.

He learnt equivocation 34 minutes ago. I can only assume it will be perfected by the end of the hour.
posted by jaduncan at 3:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

I feel like Scott Adams' theories are about as worthy of serious analysis as Wall-Climber Steve's YouTube manifestoes, or months-old archived /r/SandersForPresident comments, or pareidolia in a crumpled-up Egg McMuffin wrapper
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Because for some reason I am insanely optimistic about people's goodness and character and rationality, I am hoping a bunch of people enjoy the kick of saying "I'm for Trump" and pissing off "libruls," but will in that quiet moment alone in the voting booth do the only logical thing.
posted by sallybrown at 3:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I feel like Scott Adams' theories are about as worthy of serious analysis as Wall-Climber Steve's YouTube manifestoes, or months-old archived /r/SandersForPresident comments, or pareidolia in a crumpled-up Egg McMuffin wrapper

imagine how incomprehensible this ENTIRE COMMENT would have been to you eight months ago
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [70 favorites]

(Other than the nihilists, who finally have their moment in the sun (shade?).)
posted by sallybrown at 3:36 PM on August 11, 2016

Well, oddly, it was not all that long ago that people here were complaining that Hillary had stopped talking about policy

By definition, the people in these threads are policy nerds. Most also understand that August is about setting up the ground game. (Also, not interrupting your opponent making mistakes.)

But if you don't think propaganda techniques work

Of course they do, but this is simple salesmanship, not neurolinguistic programming ala Snow Crash.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

sallybrown, here is something to cheer you up! Trump is starting to notice that he is losing.

NYTimes

Even as he seeks to vilify Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Trump on Thursday sounded uncharacteristically fatalistic about the election. In an interview with CNBC, he acknowledged the possibility that he could lose, but insisted that he intended to stick with his unorthodox campaign style.

He pledged to “just keep doing the same thing I’m doing right now,” adding that he was the only presidential candidate who told things “straight” and was “a truth-teller.”

“At the end, it’s either going to work or I’m going to, you know, I’m going to have a very, very nice long vacation,” said Mr. Trump, who has rarely before conceded the possibility of defeat.

We are going through a painful experience but I really believe that we will come out of this better than before. Yes he is a horrible candidate and a terrible human being who should never have won the primary. But now the Republicans are firmly tied to him and he is going to drag them down, down, down. How low can they go-- I can't wait to find out.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I actually had a co-worker in the 1990s who had had the cubicle next to Scott Adams' in the days when he had just started drawing Dilbert and couldn't quit his day job yet (at Pacific Bell, btw). Adams didn't talk much but when he did, co-worker got the clear impression that he identified more with the megalomaniac Dogbert than the downtrodden cubicle dweller Dilbert. In fact, in 1997, Dogbert celebrated Adams' birthday as his own. And since he started his own blog, Adams has phased out Dogbert from the comic. Coincidence? Also, recently, the over-optimistically titled "Dilbert Classics" replayed a 1993 strip in which Dogbert set out to do what Adams has tried (and mostly failed) to do with his blog. Just a little context for the opinions of Douglas Adams. Personally, I'd rather hear Garfield creator Jim Davis' advice on ho to defeat ISIS.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:50 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

I really believe that we will come out of this better than before.

I'm usually an optimist but before I start feeling that way I want to see two things starting to happen soon -- 1) that HRC starts consistently polling over 50, so she actually is moving toward a mandate and 2) a movement toward rebuilding a sensible umbrella R party with no room for haters.

I also have significant concerns about what is going to happen to address voter suppression and uncontrolled corporate bankrolling of campaigns, and in the medium term, income inequality and lack of educational resources/opportunity.
posted by bearwife at 3:50 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

He promised it would be huge and at "Winner's Night" there were going to be all these amazing sports figures and Donald Drumpf was going to give his acceptance speech in the sports arena. Does anyone remember that? Was I just dreaming?

Hell yes I remember this! The guy who writes the Trump Apocalypse Watch over at Slate was having palpitations about it. The idea, if I recall correctly, was that it was going to be a big spectacle -- basically a reality show/infomercial hybrid -- and Trump was going to dramatically reveal his running mate and possibly his cabinet picks too, presumably by having Penn and Teller or someone pull them out of the belly of a shark or what have you, and that everyone in the world would watch it just to see what would happen and the troops would be effectively rallied. I think Slate upped its Apocalypse score to three horses in that article.

Instead, we were presented with Rudy Giuliani shrieking and frothing at the mouth, Sean Spicer citing "My Little Pony," and Mike Pence boring everyone to death. (Ok, the "My Little Pony" thing was kind of funny, but it wasn't at the convention proper.)
posted by holborne at 3:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

this is simple salesmanship, not neurolinguistic programming ala Snow Crash.

Exactly. It is the apotheosis of the grand American tradition of the huckster, the bunco artist, the snake-oil merchant, the grifter.
posted by holgate at 3:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh boy. The NYT and Gannett are trying to get a look at Trump's divorce records. I'm interested to know what his wife said in sworn statements about marital rape, but just as much, I'd like to see his financial statements. It is standard practice in dissolutions for everyone to file very detailed financial information, including tax returns, and I'll die of surprise if Trump didn't claim poverty.
posted by bearwife at 3:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [31 favorites]

“At the end, it’s either going to work or I’m going to, you know, I’m going to have a very, very nice long vacation,” said Mr. Trump
No, he'll actually be quite busy, feebly defending himself in court. We can still hope that the real "very, very nice long vacation” will be spent in a Federal Prison cell adjacent to Bernie Madoff.

AND WHY CAN'T I GET A "TRUMP FOR PRISON" BUMPER STICKER?
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:59 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It is standard practice in dissolutions for everyone to file very detailed financial information, including tax returns, and I'll die of surprise if Trump didn't claim poverty.

I half expect him to come back with "well you know how it is during divorce you don't put *EVERYTHING* in there because you don't want to give your ex-wife any more than you have to" unaware that he's basically admitting to perjury on a national stage.
posted by Talez at 4:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

AND WHY CAN'T I GET A "TRUMP FOR PRISON" BUMPER STICKER?

Because we're better than wanting to imprison our political foes because we don't like them.
posted by Talez at 4:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

2) a movement toward rebuilding a sensible umbrella R party with no room for haters.

Personally my dream scenario is that the R party collapses like a neglected soufflé, the D party becomes the new conservative party by occupying the stolid center-right space that I've always felt was its true ideological home, and a new Progressive/Social-Democratic party emerges from the more radical leftist wing of American political discourse, empowering those on the left who have long felt disenfranchised by the relentless rightward slide of the Overton window. I don't expect it, but that's my dream.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [34 favorites]

While folks are calling for shibboleth explainers, I figure now is as good a time as any to mention that the first DFW reference to be unpacked via a set of nested footnotes will be receiving many favorites from yours truly.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

In case you are interested in hearing more about that very long CNBC interview, Washington Post has an annotated transcript up. Trump begins by saying "Good morning. I guess Hillary is sleeping."

So I guess that is going to be his new thing now. Keep pushing how much Clinton sleeps.

Also his mystery friend who builds things in Mexico is back.

He talks about the military being "depleted."

He says some of our airports are like third world countries and 50% of our bridges are close to collapsing-- right on top of hospitals-- think of that!

When asked how he proposes to pay for all of this he answers that we spent too much money in the Middle East. With the Donald the Middle East is always the answer to every problem, either we spent too much or left too soon or didn't do enough...ad. in.

When asked about the Kahns, he replied "That's been put to bed a long time ago." I guess in Trumpland a few days is a long time ago.

When asked about concern from other Republicans over his unforced errors he replies that he beat 17 people. So resting on his laurels then.

When asked about the polls, he responds by boasting that Clinton has spent hundreds of millions on ads and he has spent zero. This is so odd. "I'm losing but I haven't spent any money on ads." (my paraphrase) So congratulations? What are you saving the money for?

When asked about women leaving him in droves, he responds that he had 10,000 at his rally.

He blames Obama for losing Crimea, but it would be great if Putin and the United States got along.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Also his mystery friend who builds things in Mexico is back.

You mean Steve?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:06 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

How about imprisoning him for massive frauds he has been perpetrating for 40 years and never held responsible for? That's the thing about Trump University; it's an obvious enough fraud that he likely can't escape from it, no matter how many State Attorney Generals he bribes. If the press had treated him as something more than a "wacky side story" all his life, he'd be in jail RIGHT NOW.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

ad. na., surely.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Because we're better than wanting to imprison our political foes because we don't like them.

I don't want Trump in jail because he's horrible. I want him in jail because he's an actual criminal. I guess it's possible he'll be exonerated for Trump University and literally 3500 other things, but I doubt it.

Upon preview:
Yeah, beaten to it, but it stands.
posted by mordax at 4:08 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

of course, he can and will now claim that any criminal case brought against him is a partisan witch hunt brought on by his enemies, especially the peerlessly corrupt Clintons
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:09 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

How about imprisoning him for massive frauds he has been perpetrating for 40 years and never held responsible for?

Fine then. It's a shitty idea because it's derivative and reeks of failed third grade "I know you are but what am I" levels of witticism.
posted by Talez at 4:10 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Personally my dream scenario is that the R party collapses like a neglected soufflé, the D party becomes the new conservative party by occupying the stolid center-right space that I've always felt was its true ideological home, and a new Progressive/Social-Democratic party emerges from the more radical leftist wing of American political discourse, empowering those on the left who have long felt disenfranchised by the relentless rightward slide of the Overton window. I don't expect it, but that's my dream.

I've thought and hoped for the same thing, but my concern then is that the soufflé is eventually revived and dominates in a situation where the left/center left vote is divided into two parties. I don't know how to resolve that in my brain. That's why I eventually shift over to my hope that the Republican party splits into a social issues wing and a libertarian wing, leaving the Dems to keep inching the ball downfield.
posted by vverse23 at 4:10 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm usually an optimist but before I start feeling that way I want to see two things starting to happen soon -- 1) that HRC starts consistently polling over 50, so she actually is moving toward a mandate and 2) a movement toward rebuilding a sensible umbrella R party with no room for haters.

I also have significant concerns about what is going to happen to address voter suppression and uncontrolled corporate bankrolling of campaigns, and in the medium term, income inequality and lack of educational resources/opportunity.

At least with respect to voter suppression and campaign financing, I think there's reason to be optimistic. Several recent district court rulings have been very anti-voter suppression, and Clinton specifically talked about overturning Citizens United in her acceptance speech. Clinton's best avenue to make serious changes on both of these issues is through the Supreme Court, and if (lord, if) we get the Senate back, that can totally happen.

And I personally think that making these changes will have a major, major effect on basically everything else. These hyper-entrenched Tea Party Republicans are only able to behave this way because of a combination of gerrymanders that preserve their ultra-safe seats, massive outside monetary contributions, and a smidge of voter suppression. Beat those factors back even a bit, and those peoples' bargaining positions will be seriously weakened.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:11 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Time spent sorting out the text of the Trump Issues videos was TOTALLY WORTH IT. (Doc available if anyone wants it; not sure I'm gonna bother finishing breaking it into coherent sentences.)

Trump spends more words talking about "Trump University Truth" (550 words) than he does talking about the economy (58), jobs (80), the military (46), education (116), illegal immigrants (146, his big topic), and the 2nd amendment (50) combined.

Someone on Hillary's staff needs to use these numbers.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:13 PM on August 11, 2016 [43 favorites]

Remember, over 50% of Trumpy's attacks are Projection, accusing Clinton of things he himself has done, and if we can't turn "lock her up" back on him, what CAN we?
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:14 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

State Attorney Generals
Attorneys General.
Sorry. Pet peeve.
posted by Floydd at 4:14 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

do you have any other pets peeve
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [121 favorites]

Oh, lordy. I got a list!!
posted by Floydd at 4:16 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: home of the Pedants General
posted by zachlipton at 4:19 PM on August 11, 2016 [49 favorites]

well, I have some clever trivia to lay down the next time I'm at a Harlem Globetrotters game
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:19 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

yes, I realized the mistake I made, but not until after the edit window had closed because I was out walking my pet peeve.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Remember, over 50% of Trumpy's attacks are Projection, accusing Clinton of things he himself has done, and if we can't turn "lock her up" back on him, what CAN we?

Let him hang himself. Being thrown in prison because of either real or perceived skeletons in ones closet should not be the penalty for losing an election.
posted by Talez at 4:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's a penalty he should have paid long before he started his campaign. And evading prosecution is probably one of the biggest reasons he first decided to run.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

At least with respect to voter suppression and campaign financing, I think there's reason to be optimistic. Several recent district court rulings have been very anti-voter suppression, and Clinton specifically talked about overturning Citizens United in her acceptance speech. Clinton's best avenue to make serious changes on both of these issues is through the Supreme Court, and if (lord, if) we get the Senate back, that can totally happen.

I think she actually talked about a constitutional amendment overturning Citizens United, which is kind of the same thing, and definitely needs the support of congress, but not so much the Supreme Court. As I understand it, the Court can't just go back to a prior judgement and take it back or overturn it without another suit being brought before it that litigates the same kinds of issues, but any new suit that comes up will likely be adjudicated according the the Citizens decision because of stare decisis and all that (not that the Roberts court hasn't been perfectly happy to overlook that for their own ends). At the court level, I think the effect of Citizens can be lessened by whittling away at it, in the same manner that all the abortion restrictions have happened since Roe (I hate to use that comparison, but it's the only thing I can think of), but I don't think it's likely that the Court alone can do it. We need a new constitutional amendment that better defines corporate "personhood" and campaign financing - that's going to be really hard to do, but Hillary's right that that's the way to do it.
posted by LionIndex at 4:26 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I doubt that, but I can well believe that evading prosecution is why Chris Christie endorsed him.
posted by uosuaq at 4:26 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Entertaining tweetstorm from 'GOP strategist' Matt Mackowiak (description in quotes, because, well, Business Insider) that talks about an 'extinction-level event' for the GOP in the shape of Comet Trump.

He does seem to be from Texas. Looking forward to those polls.
posted by Devonian at 4:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Being thrown in prison because of either real or perceived skeletons in ones closet should not be the penalty for losing an election.

On the other side of this, I'm sort of tired of the notion that 'because he's running for office, he should be afforded any special protection in the eyes of the law.' If a normal person made the threats he did against Hillary Clinton, there would have been consequences. A normal person couldn't have even tried to get the Trump U case put off over election season.

Nobody should want our own version of Bengaaaahzi over on our side. I certainly don't. But Trump shouldn't be given any special consideration just because the motherfucker is running for office. He should be treated like any *normal* citizen with regard to his, again, *3501* lawsuits, not to mention his actionable remarks calling for violence against a fellow candidate. I couldn't speak that way about him. That's the law. That's the social contract. He's breaking those things, and we have actual codified systems to handle that that he should be subject to in the manner of any other person, and some of his offenses do put jail on the table.

Comments about 'jail him' aren't punitive, they aren't tit-for-tat, it's simply a desire for the system to treat rich white men the same as it treats everyone else. If I pulled literally one one *thousandth* of his shit, I'd be in jail. Not figuratively-literally, I mean, 'posting this from behind bars.'

It's not the same as being like, 'Well, I hate Mitt Romney, hire someone to go through his trash.' I would also find that repellent and indefensible.
posted by mordax at 4:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

The Onion: “‘Why Can I Never Seem To Say The Right Thing?’ Weeps Trump Into Pillow”
posted by Going To Maine at 4:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

pets peeve

you are my people
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 4:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

Personally my dream scenario is that the R party collapses like a neglected soufflé, the D party becomes the new conservative party by occupying the stolid center-right space that I've always felt was its true ideological home, and a new Progressive/Social-Democratic party emerges from the more radical leftist wing of American political discourse, empowering those on the left who have long felt disenfranchised by the relentless rightward slide of the Overton window. I don't expect it, but that's my dream.

You're pretty much describing the politics of the city of Chicago.

It hasn't actually worked out that well.
posted by srboisvert at 4:31 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Personal perspective: Way back before 1990, I met a man (at work) who had been put out of business by what he described as a "fraud perpetrated by Donald Trump". That man was (rightfully) bitter, but as I got to know him better, very honest. That's why my personal mental association for over 25 years has been "TRUMP = CROOK", and every time he's emerged in the public eye since, I've thought "why isn't he in jail"? And NOTHING in his Presidential Campaign has been inconsistent with "TRUMP == CROOK".
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

#19 in Mackowiak's tweetstorm is exactly on the money:

Trump benefitted mightily from a high floor in the primaries, but he never was hurt by his low ceiling. Reverse is true now in general.

That + Trump's fundamentally nasty nature and indifference to reality are fatal. Or at least should prove so.
posted by argybarg at 4:34 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Speaking of indifference to reality...Trump appears to be giving a speech somewhere right now:

Donald Trump on the unemployment rate: "The 5% stuff is made up."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Entertaining tweetstorm from 'GOP strategist' Matt Mackowiak (description in quotes, because, well, Business Insider) that talks about an 'extinction-level event' for the GOP in the shape of Comet Trump.

3/ You have a narrow path. Hold the Romney states (in order of danger: NC, AZ, GA, UT). And then pick up OH, PA and FL. That's it.

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
posted by Going To Maine at 4:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

This ["founder of ISIS" ,"Crooked Hillary" etc] is one of the hypnotic persuasion techniques which Scott Adams has discussed extensively and which Trump uses a lot.

It doesn't really seem to have anything to do with hypnosis, though. Or, I'm certainly not willing to just take Adams at his word that it does.
posted by thelonius at 4:39 PM on August 11, 2016

As I understand it, the Court can't just go back to a prior judgement and take it back or overturn it without another suit being brought before it that litigates the same kinds of issues, but any new suit that comes up will likely be adjudicated according the the Citizens decision because of stare decisis and all that (not that the Roberts court hasn't been perfectly happy to overlook that for their own ends).

For an example of that in practice, look at the Bob McDonnell bribery case. McDonnell's conviction of illegally accepting $175,000 in gifts and donations was unanimously thrown out by the Supreme Court because there was no quid pro quo smoking gun for bribery, however the court does bless buying access and ingratiation from lawmakers. Moreover, McDonnell's political career is over anyhow, so it's a signal to the court that public opinion is a more effective was to regulate campaign finance issues than anti-corruption laws.
posted by peeedro at 4:41 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Actual thing Trump said this morning on CNBC: "During his administration, Trump will be friendly with Putin."

During his MetaFilter comment, zachlipton will be gagging at people who talk about themselves in the third person.
posted by zachlipton at 4:41 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Trump just now: Donald Trump claims that all the U.S. exports to Japan is "wheat" and "beef."

Tweet includes the following fact check: "The top export categories (2-digit HS) in 2013 were: Optic and Medical Instruments ($8.0 billion), Aircraft ($7.1 billion), Machinery ($5.8 billion), Electrical Machinery ($4.9 billion), and Meat (pork and beef) ($3.3 billion).
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:43 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

MSNBC chyron rn: 73% BOTHERED BY TRUMP'S STATEMENT ON SACRIFICE

100-73=

crazification factor strikes again
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:44 PM on August 11, 2016 [36 favorites]

zachlipton will be gagging at people who talk about themselves in the third person.

Upthread cortex revealed Trump speaks in the nth person.
posted by nom de poop at 4:47 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

You have a narrow path. Hold the Romney states (in order of danger: NC, AZ, GA, UT). And then pick up OH, PA and FL. That's it.

Most of that fits Trump's commuting needs, but Pence is going to be spending a lot of time flying between Arizona and Ohio.

Oh, schedule's out for the next few days: Trump's in Erie and Altoona tomorrow, then Fairfield, CT (!) on Saturday, then Sunday presumably doing TV and Youngstown, OH on Monday. All nice and close to the NYC penthouse.
posted by holgate at 4:47 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Tweet Storm: 7/ Can Trump show discipline for the rest of August? No more loose talk. Exciting a crowd isn't impressive. Winning a battleground state is.

He clearly has never met nor followed Trump.

Daniel Dale: Donald Trump suggests that Hillary Clinton will do anything Barack Obama wants because she knows he can get her arrested.

Wow. A new wrinkle? HRC is Obama's puppet because he can arrest her at any time? Actually this works for me if you substitute the names President Trump and Secretary Chris Christie.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:48 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

All nice and close to the NYC penthouse.

And in the end he may be undone more by the fact he is simply one lazy motherfucker.

I mean, Trump University was literally run like Kamp Krusty.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:51 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Daniel Dale again: Donald Trump on Thursday night: Is there any better place to be on Friday night than a Trump rally?

And I'm sure the crowd agreed with him.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:51 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

CNN Analyst: Roger Stone Said Trump Believes Clinton And Obama "Actually Supported ISIS With Weapons”.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just now, in Florida: Donald Trump on ISIS: "Barack Obama is THE FOUNDER!"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 4:55 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yep. He has convinced me. Our American President Barack Obama, in his spare time, founded, funded, armed, and wrote policy for ISIS because he thought it would be fun. Also he is a Muslim.

Now let's talk about the lizard people.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:59 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Is his strategy to beat Obama now?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:00 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Man, it's just one thing after another.

Donald Trump claims it "came out today" that ISIS is present in 28 countries and Obama "tried to suppress the information."
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is getting back to peak frightening.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:03 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

So I just got back from a Clinton campaign phonebanking event in Boston.

I have to say - it's a lot better than the experience calling from home, because you get to talk to other people, commiserate about how crazy Trump is, and just experience lots of enthusiasm for Hillary which is hard to get online. There were all ages represented - a really sweet elderly man who had a stroke which made it hard for him to talk on the phone, and manipulate the mouse, but was gamely giving it his best shot. There were some really young kids - our youngest caller was 11 years old and she did a great job!

I was put on the easy level to start - calling likely Hillary supporters in Boston. I called about 50 numbers. About 75% of them went to voicemail. Among the remainder there were a couple who just told me to put them on a do not call list immediately. Among the rest were some extremely enthusiastic supporters who had already signed up for volunteer events, or were organizing grass roots events of their own. Others were interested in volunteering, but weren't sure where to go or what to do. A lot of people were interested, but didn't have time right now and wanted a call back later on, which I noted. One person wanted me to call back on Saturday, which I'm going to do. Finally some people said they would definitely vote for Clinton, but did not have time to volunteer right now or were not interested in volunteering. I did not encounter any outright Trump supporters, so it seems like they have a well-curated list. No one was rude, maybe a couple were a bit curt. One person messaged me afterward asking who I was, and I explained that I was calling from Hillary for MA. He sent me a great message back, saying that he lives in TN now, he's with her, and thanking me for my service. Actually a number of people did that, telling me how important it was that I keep doing this. It was overall a very positive experience.

One of the other guys there was tackling a tougher list, of voters in NH. This was a more mixed list. Even he said that it was not as bad as he had feared - a lot of voicemails, but five or six people who were enthusiastic about Hillary, one Trump supporter and one really angry BoBer who wouldn't get off the phone and ranted at him for about 15 minutes. We headed back on the subway together and he said he plans to do this every Thursday, and perhaps some other days until November. There are canvassing trips planned every weekend from MA into NH.

A lot of people were complaining that the Clinton campaign website was tough to use. I didn't personally find it that difficult to navigate, but if anyone else is having trouble, you can find Clinton campaign events here (enter your zipcode for a list of events near you, unfortunately not sorted chronologically - this includes volunteer events). If you'd prefer to make calls at home, you can go here. These are likely to be the "easier" calls, for volunteers and so forth. But I do urge you to go physically to some of these events - turnout is going to make all the difference, and they definitely need more people. The Boston office looked to be just ramping up (opened up last week). Presumably the operation is more streamlined in swing states, but I don't think we should take anything for granted. And I think you're going to find it a more exhilarating and motivating experience than you expect.
posted by peacheater at 5:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [44 favorites]

Here's the deal: I think we can all agree that if an American president actively supported and armed ISIS, they should be executed for treason. Right? Is there any hole in that logic?
posted by argybarg at 5:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Uh @realDonaldTrump, about your sad attempt to question #Hillary's health, why did you flinch while she stayed cool?
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:09 PM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

No matter how much the excesses of the national security state are problematic to me, I suppose the best indication that we still live in something resembling a free country is that a man is allowed to get up in front of thousands of people and accuse the President of literally founding a terrorist group that wants to destroy the country and the only thing that will happen is a Canadian journalist will say that's wrong on Twitter.
posted by zachlipton at 5:10 PM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

and the only thing that will happen

You mean as far as the state. But this fool Trump is dogwhistling and aligning himself with unstable people with weapons. I am more unnerved every day.
posted by cashman at 5:17 PM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

the only thing that will happen is a Canadian journalist will say that's wrong on Twitter.

Let's hope that's correct.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:17 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

So what does being "the literal founder of ISIS" entail? Did he sign the incorporation papers? Put on a hard hat for a cornerstone-laying ceremony? Design the business cards? Is there a photo of him in the ISIS lobby?
posted by PlusDistance at 5:17 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Is his strategy to beat Obama now?

With Obama's approval ratings above 50%? Seems legit.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump suggests that Hillary Clinton will do anything Barack Obama wants because she knows he can get her arrested.

I think half of my addiction to these election threads is trying to get a glimpse of what drives the crazy Trump train.

Sometimes it seems like he's more intelligent than he lets on and is simply more concerned about publicity than winning elections, and to a lesser extent in spreading his racist conspiracies, hoping to validate them with public support.

But quotes like this suggest he is really unaware of his own loathsome behavior and freely assumes that all people in leadership roles share his inability or unwillingness to empathize with humanity. At least to the extent that he thinks such a comment could even resonate with normal people.
posted by p3t3 at 5:20 PM on August 11, 2016

Is his strategy to beat Obama now?

Well, it's increasingly clear he can't beat Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 5:21 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Trump campaign, RNC plan pivotal meeting
Struggling campaign requests Orlando sit-down to fix the relationship and plot a turnaround.

surely this pivot will take
posted by murphy slaw at 5:22 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Thing is, I couldn't disagree with much that Mackowiak says. If this was the West Wing mirror universe, he'd be the bright young Turk who bursts into GOP HQ and saves the day.

Only I don't think Trump wants to win this and will not do anything that might risk a win if it's not on entirely his terms. he's just seeing how far he can push being Trump. The evidence is mounting that he doesn't, he won't, and he will, and that this will be the biggest gift to the Dems since Nixon/Ford.

(Let us not dwell upon what happened after Nixon/Ford)
posted by Devonian at 5:23 PM on August 11, 2016

surely this pivot will take

I like the direction the "surely this" metric has taken.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Is his strategy to beat Obama now?

(AP) November 9, 8:03AM - After suffering one of the biggest losses in presidential election history, Trump tweeted "Our long national nightmare is now over - thanks to my campaign, Obama will no longer be president."

#fake
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

It doesn't really seem to have anything to do with hypnosis, though.

Well, I'll try to limit the derail to one more round: Adams explains this in his blog and he also left a blog linking a lot of his source materials. Techniques like tagging and repetition are "hypnotic" because they rely on a theory of mind which is also used to explain and sharpen the practice of actual hypnosis. That theory says that humans make nearly all decisions based on a balance of emotional forces, not rationality, and that these emotional forces can be manipulated by the careful use of words and images to create associations which you aren't consciously aware of. The shorthand for this is that we are "moist robots" for whom actual rationality is an exception, not our usual operating mode.

Now you can argue with this, but that argument shouldn't really have anything to do with Scott Adams because I know some of his sources myself. Both Trump and Adams learned this craft some time ago and part of it is kept somewhat hidden and deliberately ridiculed by the very people who invented and use the techniques because it's not in their interest to make their persuasion less effective by showing everyone how it works.

Once it's pointed out is is pretty obvious that there is a method to at least some of Trump's madness, and Trump is exactly the sort of person who would have bought a few expensive private seminars to tap into the hidden levers for controlling other people. What Trump is doing isn't exactly NLP, and whoever taught Trump would probably say NLP oversells itself. What it is is a much more advanced form of propaganda as Edward Bernays invented it, starting with Freud's theories and creating images to manipulate our subconscious drives.

The extensions to Bernays original theory involve the way we tend to process words and images. They seek to create strong mental links which will pop up to influence that emotional balance we use to make decisions when we aren't acting rationally, which is almost always.

Now you're welcome to think this is all bullshit, but you have to admit that if the whole theory is garbage then if it's not influencing anybody on the street it is certainly influencing a lot of wealthy people to drop money on these guys to work their magic. And don't forget, the Donald actually got the Republican nomination while he was doing this same shit, contradicting himself left and right and barely making rational sense. If you don't like my explanation for how he did that, what is yours?
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:25 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

surely this pivot will take

Trump himself isn't going to be at that meeting. It's going to be a wonderful success and accomplish lasting change.
posted by Francis at 5:26 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

This lie about providing child care for his employees is just nuts. Obviously Trump knows enough about these programs that he cites their trademarked names Trump Kids and Trumpeteers. Not only are they not provided for employees, they are offered to the guests for an additional charge and he makes a profit off them. Why am I not surprised?

He is literally incapable of telling the truth about even the most trivial matters.
posted by JackFlash at 5:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

I don't want to have to think about the RNC turning things around. This is terrible.
posted by tzikeh at 5:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

But quotes like this suggest he is really unaware of his own loathsome behavior and freely assumes that all people in leadership roles share his inability or unwillingness to empathize with humanity. At least to the extent that he thinks such a comment could even resonate with normal people.

Trump shows a lot of signs of being a fully DSM-3 compliant sociopath. From hard experience I can tell you that sociopaths are kind of fun to be around, at least until you wake up with the knife handle sticking out of your back.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

he campaign official said Trump, who is scheduled to travel to Pennsylvania on Friday, was not slated to attend the meeting,

Minutes of the meeting, convened at 18:30

18:30. (Omnes) "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu....

20:30: "..... ck!"

Meeting adjourned.
posted by Devonian at 5:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

Now you're welcome to think this is all bullshit,

It's basic salesmanship. It's just that Adams et al. need for it to be a Sekrit Code so they can feel special*. Meanwhile the ancient Greeks had this shit pretty well nailed down.

*C.f. MRA's combination lock approach to women.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

Why would anybody watch that tragically bad convention and think Trump could deliver a day old pizza?

And the truly amusing thing is that the DNC was the smoothly executed star-studded spectacular that the RNC wasn't. I mean, Scott Baio vs Meryl Streep?
posted by tavella at 5:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

when I watch the olympic swimmers going down their lanes with the big orange line marked "WORLD RECORD" just out of reach and moving away I think about the 300-Day Political Thread Marathon and the happy yet deflated feeling I get when I finally catch up
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [30 favorites]

It's basic salesmanship. It's just that Adams et al. need for it to be a Sekrit Code so they can feel special*. Meanwhile the ancient Greeks had this shit pretty well nailed down.

yeah, the athenians came up with the word "demagogue" to describe a person who used these exact techniques, long before jesus was even a twinkle in god's eye.

scott adams cares so much about sounding smart that he's forgotten how to think.
posted by murphy slaw at 5:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

Trump himself isn't going to be at that meeting. It's going to be a wonderful success and accomplish lasting change.

This sounds mostly like an excuse for the RNC and the Trump campaign staff to all get together to commiserate over how Trump is the worst, right, just the worst, Jesus Christ I can't believe we went with this guy.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:39 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Welcome to the RNC Campaign Turnaround Meeting and Resume-Sharing Workshop!
posted by kirkaracha at 5:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

"normally when you stage an intervention, you invite the person with the problem, but this time we thought we'd mix it up a little"
posted by murphy slaw at 5:41 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I mean, Scott Baio vs Meryl Streep?

It’s kind of a given that the Democrats will have more celebrities than the Republicans, in the same way that it’s given that a pop star will protest about the Republican candidate using one of their songs. It’s true that the DNC went off better than the RNC, but that particular aspect of it seemed par for the course.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:42 PM on August 11, 2016

JackFlash, if you haven't read the Washington Post article on the 30 lies Donald Trump told during two days of depositions, it is astonishing and well worth reading.

From Politico's story on the RNC meeting

Though a campaign source dismissed it as a "typical" gathering, others described it as a more serious meeting, with one calling it an "emergency meeting." It comes at a time of mounting tension between the campaign and the Republican National Committee, which is facing pressure to pull the plug on Trump’s campaign and redirect party funds down ballot to protect congressional majorities endangered by Trump’s candidacy.

The only thing that is going to come about because of this meeting is Donald Trump will tell everyone at his next rally that the Party is unified. Rinse. Lather. Repeat.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

when I watch the olympic swimmers going down their lanes with the big orange line marked "WORLD RECORD" just out of reach and moving away I think about the 300-Day Political Thread Marathon and the happy yet deflated feeling I get when I finally catch up,

Judging by my favorites, either Tehhund is still back on DNC day 2, or I haven't said anything worthy of a favorite since then. Or quite possibly, why not both?
posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

I would like to counsel anyone who gets terribly depressed at the thought of the GOP managing to make even the slightest headway against the course of events to consider how they'd be feeling if the Dems were in that hole and the GOP were fielding a supremely competent candidate off the back of a successful two-term president with seriously high approval ratings.

I know: large chunks of the electorate are clearly bonkers, Hillary isn't Obama, the stakes are high and there are three months to go.

But look at the clusterfuck on the other side. Look at it. Look!
posted by Devonian at 5:44 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Noah Gray CNN ‏@NoahGrayCNN 21m Go home! You are a traitor! I am an American Patriot!" Trump supporter screams at me and other journos in pen.

Lovely man.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Rinse. Lather. Repeat.

I think I see the problem here...
posted by Mchelly at 5:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

How does he even pivot at this point? I mean, eventually Titanic is too close to the iceberg to avoid the collision. He's created/nurtured/brought-out-of-the-already-existing-bigot-closet a base that wants blood and hate - they're going to be bored and confused with policy and sanity. I'm as pessimistic as the next Democrat and am certain we could still find a way to snatch defeat out of the gaping orange maw of victory but I just don't think there's anything Trump can do to raise his ceiling at this point.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:46 PM on August 11, 2016

and there are three months to go.

I think I heard there is only a month to go before early voting ballots go out.

You can still come from behind, Egg McEggyface. You have a whole month to make it a real 5 way race.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:47 PM on August 11, 2016

Judging by my favorites, either Tehhund is still back on DNC day 2, or I haven't said anything worthy of a favorite since then.

I've noted before, Tehhund is slow but dillegent. I'm expecting them to favorite this September-ish.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:47 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

If I'm reading 538 correctly, If Gary Johnson weren't running, Trump would be leading Clinton in the popular vote.

Clinton: 49.1%
Trump: 41.4%
Johnson: 8.2%
posted by tzikeh at 5:53 PM on August 11, 2016

I appreciate that people keep posting tweets from that Daniel Dale person because he's got a good nose for the story but, jesus christ does he look exactly like Gob Bluth and I can't get past that, really.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

If I'm reading 538 correctly

You aren't, that's assuming all the Johnson votes would go to Trump, for one thing.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:56 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

If I'm reading 538 correctly, If Gary Johnson weren't running, Trump would be leading Clinton in the popular vote.

There isn't a lot of reason to believe that all Johnson voters would be Republican if it weren't for Trump. People don't have coherent mental ideologies.
posted by dis_integration at 5:56 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Gary Johnson weren't running, Trump would be leading Clinton in the popular vote.

How do you figure? In comparing polls with just 2 candidates vs polls with 3 or 4, Johnson appears to pull slightly more voters from Clinton than from Trump.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't want to have to think about the RNC turning things around. This is terrible

There is nothing for them to turn around, their candidate is Donald Fucking Trump. That's like saying you are going to turn your car around after it has caught on fire, blown all four wheels, spewed vital parts everywhere, and had a giant take a dump in it. It is too late to replace him so it is full steam ahead on the Trump Train.

I appreciate that people keep posting tweets from that Daniel Dale person because he's got a good nose for the story but, jesus christ does he look exactly like Gob Bluth and I can't get past that, really.

Sorry. I'm that person. Daniel Dale goes to the rallies and reports what happens so I don't have to bother watching on YouTube. I can just snark from the sidelines.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Uh @realDonaldTrump, about your sad attempt to question #Hillary's health, why did you flinch while she stayed cool?

This, this is awesome!
posted by OmieWise at 5:58 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Techniques like tagging and repetition are "hypnotic" because they rely on a theory of mind which is

"Heads I win, tails you lose."

Seriously, you don't need complex theory of neurolinguistic programming to explain Trump's success. He won by conning a bare plurality of people, susceptible by reasons of history and demography, into voting their fantasies and their fears. He managed that because he was operating in a crowded field of candidates, none of whom wanted to offend him, because each of them wanted his voters. Indeed, if Trump is the neurolinguistic genius that Adams insists he is, then he has to explain why Trump hasn't done better than he has. (I realize that Adams' explanation is that Clinton has hired even better neurolinguistic programmers than Trump. He might as well claim that Clinton's magic is suddenly more powerful than Trump's.)

Adams' "neurolinguistic programming" is first-rate horse shit and second-rate Scientology.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:59 PM on August 11, 2016 [47 favorites]

Third party suport tends to evaporate once you get down to the wire, and most of the third party supporters poll Clinton when presented with just major party options.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:00 PM on August 11, 2016

If I'm reading 538 correctly, If Gary Johnson weren't running, Trump would be leading Clinton in the popular vote.

lol what
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

eventually Titanic is too close to the iceberg to avoid the collision

But the Titanic is the iceberg. Metaphors tend to break down when Donald Trump is involved, don't they?
posted by argybarg at 6:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

538 article about Johnson's effect. This one is a month old but recent polls seem similar, basically Clinton's lead decreases when Johnson is included in most polls (meaning they vote for Clinton if they don't have the option of Johnson, so including Johnson decreases Clinton's lead).
posted by thefoxgod at 6:01 PM on August 11, 2016

There is nothing for them to turn around, their candidate is Donald Fucking Trump.

Yeah, but if the GOP teaches him how to campaign properly, some people may forget just how big a dumpster fire he is. I'd much rather have his crazy on display.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sorry. I'm that person. Daniel Dale goes to the rallies and reports what happens so I don't have to bother watching on YouTube. I can just snark from the sidelines.

Me too. I started following him on Twitter during the height of the Rob Ford insanity a few years back (City Hall used to be his beat), and lately have found his tweets to be way better than actually hearing Trump's voice, which makes me want to crawl out of my own skin.

So I've been posting some of them here because holy shit he's a fast tweeter. I guess the Rob Ford maelstrom - which, locally here in Toronto, evolved in a way that is eerily similar to the Trump shitshow in the speed and intensity of its weirdness, albeit on a far, far smaller scale - prepared him for live-tweeting this kind of stuff.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah, RealClearPolitics reports the average for both kinds of polls. Clinton is averaging +7.7 in a heads-up match against Trump, and +7.2 in poll questions that include Johnson and Stein.
posted by john hadron collider at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump is not teachable.

Which raises the specter of a Trump-like candidate who is effective and conniving and who adjusts. But such a candidate would not have the raw, berserk, WWF-style quality Donald Trump has and which his followers love. So don't bother worrying about that hypothetical candidate just yet.
posted by argybarg at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Trump’s “Obama founded ISIS” comments are outrageous. They’re also deeply ignorant.

Okay, a Trump defender might say, but Trump’s real point isn’t that Obama "created" ISIS. It’s that Obama withdrew US troops from Iraq in 2011, creating a security vacuum that allowed ISIS to regain its strength.

This is a pretty standard conservative narrative, one not at all unique to Trump. It is, however, quite wrong. The real sources of ISIS’s recent growth were the Syrian civil war and political sectarianism in Iraq, neither of which was within the power of United States to prevent.

By 2010, "Iraq finally had relatively good security, a generous state budget, and positive relations among the country’s various ethnic and religious communities," Zaid al-Ali, author of The Struggle for Iraq's Future, wrote in Foreign Policy. But that strong position was squandered. Then-Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki stripped his political opponents of power, appointed his cronies to run the army, and killed peaceful protesters.

Most importantly, Maliki reconstructed the Iraqi state along sectarian lines, privileging the Shia majority over the Sunni minority. This exacerbated Iraq's existing sectarian tensions: Sunni Iraqis, after all, had long and falsely believed themselves to be Iraqi's majority (owing to Saddam-era propaganda). They saw Maliki as depriving them of their rightful control of the state — and his actions deepened their belief that the Iraqi state was fundamentally illegitimate.

Around this same time as this was happening, Syria erupted in Arab Spring protests and, eventually, descended into civil war. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the current leader of ISIS who was at the time in Iraq, saw the chaos as an opportunity, sending a contingent of fighters to Syria to set up shop there in late 2011.

These two developments — Iraq’s unraveling and Syria’s civil war — created a perfect incubator for ISIS.

posted by homunculus at 6:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

It’s kind of a given that the Democrats will have more celebrities than the Republicans, in the same way that it’s given that a pop star will protest about the Republican candidate using one of their songs. It’s true that the DNC went off better than the RNC, but that particular aspect of it seemed par for the course.

Sorry but you don't get to lower the bar that far.

Other republicans candidates have had some pretty accomplished celebrities.

Trump couldn't even pull celebrity big brother UK level American celebrities. And reality TV celebrity is his wheelhouse.
posted by srboisvert at 6:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Looks like someone erected a confederate flag with Trump's name on it before the rally in Florida. An RNC official made them take it down.

Three police officers stood on the floor tugging gently at the flag, indicating that it had to come down. Mr. Partin, 27, grew irritated that he had to remove it. He had just purchased the flag outside the event, and “Trump 2016” was printed on it.

As he bundled up the flag, he said that if the man who had asked him to take it down was from the campaign, “then that might have just changed my vote.”

But in a brief interview afterward, Mr. Partin acknowledged that he said that in “the heat of the moment” and that he would still support Mr. Trump.

“It kind of upsets me a little bit,” he said, adding that he didn’t think Mr. Trump himself would have asked him to remove the flag.

I wanted to cut and paste the whole article because it is full of win, but Cortex might yell at me. Still laughing at the "that might have just changed my vote...nah, just kidding."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:09 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

And don't forget, the Donald actually got the Republican nomination while he was doing this same shit, contradicting himself left and right and barely making rational sense. If you don't like my explanation for how he did that, what is yours?

I see it as a perfect storm, not something that can be explained by one or two overriding factors, and certainly not a result of him being some kind of grand master of manipulation and hypnosis.

Among the causes, in my estimation:

* The most crowded field in history, which lent itself to a media-savvy candidate who can get the press to pay attention to him
* "Economic anxiety" (income inequality, the "jobless recovery", etc.) that made primary voters more receptive to direct racist/xenophobic appeals, as opposed to the usual dog whistles about personal responsibility and small government coming from other candidates
* A Democratic frontrunner that, due to decades of conservative attacks, turned off moderates, creating a demand for a candidate willing to pretend to support of some moderate positions

I'm sure there were many other causes, and I'm sure the professional pundit class has written hundreds of "how did Trump happen" pieces, but those are the ones that stand out to me.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:09 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

If I’m reading 538 correctly, If Gary Johnson weren’t running, Trump would be leading Clinton in the popular vote.

lol what

Perhaps more fundamentally: more than half the (voting) country would prefer that Clinton not be president. This isn’t to relitigate whether Sanders would be doing better, but simply to emphasize my bogglement.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:09 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Dylan Matthews at Vox: “These tweets [from Ross Douthat] reveal why it’s so hard for conservatives to oppose Trump [but not for the reasons Douthat thinks]” (Sometimes Vox clickbait headlines need additional bracketing.)
posted by Going To Maine at 6:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I started following [Daniel Dale] on Twitter during the height of the Rob Ford insanity a few years back (City Hall used to be his beat), and lately have found his tweets to be way better than actually hearing Trump's voice, which makes me want to crawl out of my own skin.

Yeah, I stopped listening to the CBC except for a few chosen shows when Trump was doing relatively well because a) they play a clip of him, I swear, during most news breaks and b) most CBC Quick News reporting is shoddy and shot through with conventional wisdom. During those times, MeFi and Twitter kept me informed and my ears attached to my head.
posted by maudlin at 6:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm "lol what"ing because the idea that all or even most of Johnson's votes would go to Trump is directly contradicted by literally every piece of polling evidence.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:12 PM on August 11, 2016

I had to share this.... this GIF I found on Twitter.

Featuring:

- Donald Trump standing, in a suit, with an assault rifle, on a tank emerging from the ocean?, with an enormous flag waving behind him, and I think Trump is wearing some sort of WWE championship belt!
- Fireworks! And everywhere: flames!
- The tank is firing its gun! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! And the gun says YOU'RE FIRED on it!
- In the background, a battleship! And helicopters! And Michael Bay explosions!
- The treads of the tank are made of real gold and there are waves of dollar bills flying off of it!

It is amazing and you have to see it.
posted by mochapickle at 6:14 PM on August 11, 2016 [30 favorites]

How in the world is it possible that METAFILTER of all communities can claim a Delegate to the RNC as it's own but there wasn't a Mefite at the DNC?

There was! Angrycat and I think one or two others? I think it was just harder to post from the DNC and they didn't have the always-helpful cookergirl to relay. I could only personally post in the megathreads when stuff was calm - when it was exploding I wouldn't have been able to post at all without the relay effect.
posted by corb at 6:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

The most crowded field in history, which lent itself to a media-savvy candidate who can get the press to pay attention to him

And win a minority of primary voters. Why is this treated as a mandate?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now you're welcome to think this is all bullshit, but you have to admit that if the whole theory is garbage then if it's not influencing anybody on the street it is certainly influencing a lot of wealthy people to drop money on these guys to work their magic. And don't forget, the Donald actually got the Republican nomination while he was doing this same shit, contradicting himself left and right and barely making rational sense. If you don't like my explanation for how he did that, what is yours?

Sure. Here's the thing. I try to come to the dark art of political prognostication with some ground rules, one of which is the assumption that "humans of all races and genders are equally human". So one would think that a hyper-behavioralist Method For Convincing Humans To Vote For You would leave men and women and queer folk, black and brown and white, and every other category and distinction -- that this Method would affect relatively equally every person who shares this set of 26 chromosomes and this kind of body.

Yet we find that humans who identify themselves as male and who identify themselves as straight and who identify themselves as white are strangely, disproportionately drawn to this curious Method.

Now tell me plainly: has a washed-up reality TV star and professional trust fund baby stumbled serendipitously on some loophole in a gene of the Y chromosome and/or the genes responsible for skin melanin content that uniquely makes these populations susceptible to persuasion of a very particular sort...

... or, could it be, instead, a question of misogyny and racism, loathing and fear of the Other?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:17 PM on August 11, 2016 [60 favorites]

tl;dr: fuck you scott adams
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:17 PM on August 11, 2016 [36 favorites]

I’m "lol what"ing because the idea that all or even most of Johnson’s votes would go to Trump is directly contradicted by literally every piece of polling evidence.

Right, but I’m still impressed by the fact that HRC might not crack 50%.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just don't think we've ever had someone who just took the standard political playbook and immediately lit it on fire, pissed on it to put it out, and then ran it through a shredder. How did he do it? How doesn't really matter at that point--he just did it and the 27% of crazies ate it up and here we are. I don't think there's any strategy there, just someone narcissistic and arrogant enough that he had absolutely zero hesitation to just go out there and unapologetically just say whatever the fuck and when (criminally rarely) called on it just double down and say even more whatever the fuck.

I've kind of suspected for a while that a lot of the famous gaffes in recent political history were career-enders not because of the gaffe itself but because the reaction of the candidate or the campaign which indicated "Yes, that there was a gaffe." What Trump does is to just say, "Gaffe? That wasn't a gaffe, fuck your gaffes and fuck you in particular." Instead of equivocating and apologizing like a wimp, Trump portrays dominance by never admitting that such a thing as a mistake is even within his sphere of operations. That kind of hypermasculine foolishness plays pretty well with other hypermasculine fools.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

Going To Maine: For what it's worth, aside from George W. Bush's re-election in 2004, the last presidential candidate to win more than 50% of the popular vote was Reagan.
posted by SansPoint at 6:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yet we find that humans who identify themselves as male and who identify themselves as straight and who identify themselves as white are strangely,

Go on...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:19 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I had to share this.... this GIF I found on Twitter.


The man's IBS is truly stupendous. He is farting real fire. Too many taco bowls?
posted by Devonian at 6:21 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I am still gazing in wonderment.
posted by mochapickle at 6:22 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Going To Maine: For what it's worth, aside from George W. Bush’s re-election in 2004, the last presidential candidate to win more than 50% of the popular vote was Reagan.

Set democracy on fire.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's not like I forgot that Ross Douthat has a head full of bricks but I appreciate the reminder.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Douthat's thought experiment is an important one: If some candidate as unworthy and unhinged as Trump become the Democrat's nominee, would you vote for Rick Santorum?

Clear objections: Hillary is not the equivalent of Rick Santorum (later he equivocates to "Newt Gingrich running on Ted Cruz's platform").

But there are two questions that are interesting to me:

1) What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be? Some nightmarish unqualified rage-filled celebrity who co-opted liberal thinking? I can't come up with it. Surely there is no one off the shelf. Bill Maher? Alec Baldwin? I'm shooting blanks here.

2) If such a figure arose, wouldn't we at MeFi get a thrill out of their unabashed, almost unhinged leftiness? Their crazy over-doing it? Their lust for stomping right-wingers into the ground? Or would we unite against that person?

One key answer is the Left's heroes never look like that. There are false idols we need to beware but they don't exude rage and division. I don't know what leftist would look okay to us but a nightmare to everyone else.
posted by argybarg at 6:26 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be?

Wavy Gravy?
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Going To Maine: Set democracy on fire.

Some of those elections (1992, 1996) had Ross Perot take a decent chunk of the popular vote. (18.9%, and 8.4% respectively), so I wouldn't burn down democracy just yet. Winning by plurality is a valid outcome.
posted by SansPoint at 6:31 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Beep boop sorry my control button seems to be randomly not functioning.

This gif.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2016

waitingtoderail Wavy Gravy?

Vermin Supreme?
posted by SansPoint at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Kanye. He's said he wants to run!
posted by Countess Elena at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

> If Hillary Clinton Seeks (or Accepts) an Endorsement from Henry Kissinger, She's Lost My Vote

Why Is Hillary Clinton Bragging About This Endorsement? A recurring series.

Negroponte? FFS.
posted by homunculus at 6:32 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now you're welcome to think this is all bullshit,

OK I do thanks for the permission internet guy
posted by dersins at 6:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

And win a minority of primary voters. Why is this treated as a mandate?

To expand on that before April 19 there was precisely one place Trump gained a majority of voters in the Primary. The Northern Mariana Islands. He picked up a lot of pluralities before April 19 - but that was the only majority. From April 19 onwards they were clearly trying for party unity and he won a majority of the primary in every single state.
posted by Francis at 6:33 PM on August 11, 2016

> Mitch McConnell's Supreme Court Dilemm: If Republicans are looking for any way to separate themselves from Trump, moving on Garland would do the trick.

How Senate Republicans Can Get Out of This Supreme Court Mess: If they're smart, they'll give Merrick Garland a vote to separate themselves from Donald Trump.
posted by homunculus at 6:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Uh didn't Obama won more than 50% of the popular vote in the general?
posted by R343L at 6:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

I would vote for, say, Mitt Romney or any number of Blandy McBlanderson Republicans over a Democratic Dr. Strangelove. If it was Dr. Strangelove vs. Rick Santorum it'd depend where I lived. I would consider just not voting.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have tried to come up with a left-wing Trump equivalent. The best I could do was Charles Manson.
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, but if the GOP teaches him how to campaign properly, some people may forget just how big a dumpster fire he is. I'd much rather have his crazy on display.

1) Trump has said several times just today that he will not change.

2) If somehow the RNC was able to convince to try to change he would become a boring candidate with nothing to offer-- no policies, no vision, no charisma. He doesn't even know how government works and clearly doesn't know what the duties of a President are. The few times Trump has stayed on message he has delivered a boring speech.

3) Even if they forced Trump to change and made him stay on message he has no campaign. He has shitty writers, bad managers, and the worst spokespeople.

4) Even if somehow in three months all those things were fixed, Hillary Clinton has all the ads, all the airtime, and all of her volunteers ready to go. She has been ready since day one of the election. He would be trying to play catch up. It is too late for catch up.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

R343L: Whoops. You're right. Both years, too.
posted by SansPoint at 6:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

But such a candidate would not have the raw, berserk, WWF-style quality Donald Trump has and which his followers love. So don't bother worrying about that hypothetical candidate just yet.

God, I hope Ted Cruz comes out next primary season consciously trying to be Trump II and howling in his whiny voice about we need to nuke Macau and sell Hawaii to the Russians or whatever laundry list of outrageous positions they've triangulated as the Smart Trump ones only to get like 2% of the vote because he has zero of the media skills and public profile required to pull it off.
posted by Copronymus at 6:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump has neither the attention span nor the discipline to study policy, do debate prep, any of that. It doesn't matter who the campaign hires.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be? Some nightmarish unqualified rage-filled celebrity who co-opted liberal thinking? I can't come up with it. Surely there is no one off the shelf. Alec Baldwin?
posted by argybarg at 8:26 PM on August 11

I can only speak for myself, but I think you nailed it. One qualifier, though. It can only be Alec Baldwin if he is eternally soused to the Nth degree and whenever he speaks there is no bleeping or dump button.

You wanna wreck the US (and probably the world) in an entertaining way? That'd do it I bet.

nb: I am in no way advocating this course of action.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 6:37 PM on August 11, 2016

What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be?

Roseanne Barr. And yes, I would vote for, say, Jeb Bush over Roseanne Barr.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Sean Penn? Bill Maher?
posted by 0xFCAF at 6:39 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have tried to come up with a left-wing Trump equivalent. The best I could do was Charles Manson.

Lyndon LaRouche, surely.
posted by dersins at 6:39 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

As would I. She's ... not well.
posted by argybarg at 6:40 PM on August 11, 2016

Kanye. He's said he wants to run!

West is similar, and the comparison has been made elsewhere too. But while both of them are loudmouths who say whatever fool idea goes through their head, West has some legitimate genius artistic accomplishments to his name, paid his dues on the way up, and hasn’t (yet) defrauded anyone. Maybe Suge Knight would be a better point of comparison...
posted by Going To Maine at 6:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, maybe Susan Sarandon. Ugh.
posted by argybarg at 6:41 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am in despair, I fell about 2k comments behind on this thread. I may have to skip work tomorrow.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:42 PM on August 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

So, I decided I'm going to volunteer for Hillary at least once a week between now and the election. I did voter registration on Tuesday (two hours outside a VA Metro station with a clipboard), and I'm doing that again on Sunday and knocking on doors the following week.

I'm also doing some phone banking from home-- just now I spoke to a very nice old man in Utah who reassured me that he and his wife are both voting for Hillary, but that he doesn't think he can volunteer because he has a vision impairment that would make anything computer-based difficult. I suggested voter registration drives as a good option, and he sounded interested! So that was nice.

I think actually doing something on a regular basis is going to make me feel a lot less stressed about this election-- even if it doesn't make a huge difference in absolute terms, I feel a little less like the whole thing is completely out of my control.
posted by nonasuch at 6:45 PM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

I was thinking maybe Alan Grayson. I actually like quite a few of the things he's said, but as a presidential candidate? No thanks.
posted by uosuaq at 6:46 PM on August 11, 2016

Oprah? If Oprah had very out-there ideas like anti-vaccination/chem-trails/homeopathy plus she was also a socialist who wanted to Nationalize everything: banks, airlines, newspapers, cable TV, broadband, cellular phone service, health care, electricity and gas, everything. I could see her being very popular but also rather alarming. Especially if she combined all this with Trump's complete disinterest in actual governing.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:47 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be?

Gwyneth Paltrow. Make America Goop Again.
posted by erisfree at 6:47 PM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Alec Baldwin?

Barr/Baldwin 2020! You better vote for us or we'll rip your face off!
posted by octobersurprise at 6:48 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am in despair, I fell about 2k comments behind on this thread. I may have to skip work tomorrow.

Nothing has actually happened

Except for Trump trying to get somebody to shoot Clinton

But other than that, same old, same old
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:48 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

You mean if Oprah was basically Jill Stein?

I'm pretty goddam left wing, but I for reals believe that Jeb Bush would be better at being President than Jill Stein would.
posted by dersins at 6:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [35 favorites]

Disturbung incident at Oprah rally.
posted by Artw at 6:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Alan Grayson is very close, but has actual political experience.
posted by Justinian at 6:49 PM on August 11, 2016

How Senate Republicans Can Get Out of This Supreme Court Mess: If they're smart, they'll give Merrick Garland a vote to separate themselves from Donald Trump.

Harry Reid is spot on:

They spend a lot of time these Republicans, spending a lot of energy trying to separate themselves from Donald Trump. But as long as they're holding a Supreme Court seat open for him, they're his minions. They're his enablers.

There's some centrist part of me that just wanted Garland confirmed, and thought maybe Senate Republicans were going to come to their senses once primary threats were over... except for the giant orange one that's the nominee.

But McConnell and company haven't just made their bed, they've all but bronzed the sheets. And at this point, I think the best thing for the country would be for this to backfire so badly that nobody dares to try it again. The Senate needs to turn blue. Clinton needs to win. And just when the Senate Republicans realize they could have had Garland all along, he needs to be withdrawn and replaced with someone left of RBG.

And then hopefully, when McConnell is called into the chambers of whatever dark diabolical masters he so clearly has sold whatever pathetic shriveled excuse for soul he might once have been in possession of in order to receive weeks of due torture as a consequence for his miscalculation, maybe then we'll get something resembling only partial insanity from the Senate Republicans.
posted by wildblueyonder at 6:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be?

That One Student In The Back Row Of Your 301 Class THAT WON'T SHUT UP.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [29 favorites]

Disturbung incident at Oprah rally.

I'm going to take it as a sign that I spend too much time on the internet that I immediately knew where that link was going to take me.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 6:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

Looks like the Clinton Pittsburgh office grand opening is Monday. There has been all kinds of voter registration drives here already but I guess they just got their permanent digs. I'd like to go to the opening, but Monday night is kind of a big ask for a working parent :/
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've got it! John Edwards!
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:54 PM on August 11, 2016

> What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be?

CITZENS OF METAFILTER.

I AM YOUR VOICE.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

... or, could it be, instead, a question of misogyny and racism, loathing and fear of the Other?

Seriously, the "mystery" of Donald Trump's appeal is: Everyone else has been playing dogwhistles and Trump brought in a big brass band to play the same tune.

Or, everyone else has been giving out dog treats and Trump's throwing out raw meat. But that's a rather dehumanizing metaphor.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 6:56 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jerry Springer might come close, but, actual political experience.
posted by LionIndex at 6:56 PM on August 11, 2016

From the Politico article:

Trump on Thursday night challenged reports that the RNC might shift resources down ballot, warning in an interview on Fox News “if it is true, that’s okay too because all I have to do is stop funding the Republican Party.”

Trump argued that the RNC needs him more than the he needs the committee, asserting: “I’m the one raising that’s funding, I’m the one that’s raising the money and other people are getting to use the money that I raised.”

There is nothing he will not lie/fantasize about. So for the meeting, the RNC will tell him how things are, he'll tell them how he fantasizes things, and he'll go out and declare that they have all rallied around him.

Meanwhile, "Trump's Other Polling Headache"... he's bringing out more voters to vote AGAINST him than FOR him.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:00 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've got it! John Edwards!

Close. But Edwards A) had political experience and B) only disgraced himself with one wife.

(Hm. What is he doing these days? Foreign Legion?)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:01 PM on August 11, 2016

RYAN: It's like you broke into my house threatening to kill YOURSELF!
[silence]
TRUMP: Question is, do you want some dead guy on your floor?

...well this seems like an eerily accurate summation of the current state of the Republican party at this point.
posted by yasaman at 7:03 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

> What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be?

Remember Jimmy Carter's brother Billy?

But if you can include fictional TV characters (like Trump): Walter White.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

(Hm. What is he doing these days? Foreign Legion?)

He's started a law firm.
posted by mochapickle at 7:04 PM on August 11, 2016

So for the meeting, the RNC will tell him how things are, he'll tell them how he fantasizes things, and he'll go out and declare that they have all rallied around him.

But he won't be at that meeting. Some people from his campaign team will.

I can't read that any other way than they're going to try and stitch him up and present him with an ultimatum, which he has already indicated he does not want to hear.

How will that pan out?

I've got nothing except popcorn and agog.
posted by Devonian at 7:05 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

CITZENS OF METAFILTER.

I AM YOUR VOICE.

Sorry. I'm voting for vuron. But with you splitting the quidnunc kid vote I won't fight your attempt.
posted by Talez at 7:06 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

That one guy ::scrolls waaay up::, Ewan McGregor, is supposedly on the ballot in Colorado. Is that him? Egg?
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:06 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

> What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be.

Actually I know the right answer to this question. Roseanne Barr.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:08 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Seriously, the "mystery" of Donald Trump's appeal is: Everyone else has been playing dogwhistles and Trump brought in a big brass band to play the same tune.

I think part of Trump's appeal is less that he's the first politician to outright pander to the racist white base of the Republican Party and more that he's the first politician in a while to entertainingly pander to that base. Look at the crop of assholes that was running around in the primaries. People like Scott Walker. People vote for Scott Walker. Nobody is fired up about Scott Walker, because he's yet another boring politician who happens to advocate for Republican-approved policies. People get fired up about Trump because he entertains them. I think that's behind the idea that he "just says what everyone's thinking" or whatever, because very few people are actually thinking most of the stuff he says, but since he delivers his nonsensical policies in an an entertaining way, some people decide they like them and unconsciously create a narrative that fills in that gap.
posted by Copronymus at 7:08 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

And just when the Senate Republicans realize they could have had Garland all along, he needs to be withdrawn and replaced with someone left of RBG.

I would love fore this person to be Eric Holder. Very nearly reviled by the RWNJs as much as Obama, Holder on the SCOTUS would be icing on the eat-shit-you-losing-racist-assholes cake.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:08 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

What will prevent a Republican-controlled Senate from declaring that they're not in the business of approving Clinton-appointed Supreme Court nominees? Or prevent a Senate minority from filibustering every last one?
posted by argybarg at 7:11 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

oh wait october surprise already got there re: roseanne. d'oh.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:11 PM on August 11, 2016

In the former case, centuries of precedent. I do actually think they would (eventually) confirm HRC nominees after throwing some hissy fits. In the latter case, the Democrats would eventually scrap the filibuster for judicial nominees if it came to that.
posted by Justinian at 7:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

And just when the Senate Republicans realize they could have had Garland all along, he needs to be withdrawn and replaced with someone left of RBG.

Loretta Lynch has a special place in my heart.
posted by AFABulous at 7:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

On the other side of this, I'm sort of tired of the notion that 'because he's running for office, he should be afforded any special protection in the eyes of the law.' If a normal person made the threats he did against Hillary Clinton, there would have been consequences.

Well, maybe not.

Scan down to [8] and you'll find this part of the decision.

[8] The facts and circumstances which differentiate advocacy of crime from solicitation of crime are those which differentiate advocacy of abstract doctrine from advocacy of incitement to unlawful action (Yates v. United States supra, (1957) 354 U.S. 298, 318-326-327 [1 L. Ed. 2d 1356, 1374, 1379, 1380]). Their application may be seen in Brandenberg v. Ohio supra, (1969) 395 U.S. 444 [23 L. Ed. 2d 430, 89 S. Ct. 1827], a conviction under Ohio's criminal syndicalism law of a leader of the Ku Klux Klan for advocating the general propriety of crime at a rally held for media reporters during which a cross had been burned and statements made derogatory to Negroes and Jews. In reversing the conviction the court declared that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action." (P. 447 [23 L.Ed.2d, p. 434].) Mere abstract teaching of the moral propriety of resort to force and violence, said the court, is not the same as preparing and steeling a group for violent action.

You can find more following that about the test this court used to determine whether Rubin's "shoot a nazi, collect $500" offer was protected speech.

Trump's vagueness as well as a lack of imminence - this is supposedly about appointment of judges, something that the next president can't do till Jan 20, 2017 - make me think this isn't something someone would get charged with.

Whether that's a bad thing I am not opineing on, merely the question of whether any 'normal person' would have suffered consequences beyond a conversation with the secret service.
posted by phearlez at 7:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

What will prevent a Republican-controlled Senate from declaring that they're not in the business of approving Clinton-appointed Supreme Court nominees?

It'd be interesting to see if the Senate, having gone this far down the road, wouldn't decide in-for-a-penny in-for-a-pound and do this. And as far as I can tell, no one can force them to confirm a nominee if they have control of the senate. The question is if they'd really be willing to scrap precedent and double down on obstructionism.

Or prevent a Senate minority from filibustering every last one?

That's not only inviting the majority to change the rules, it's providing cover for them to do so.
posted by wildblueyonder at 7:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

There's nothing stopping a Senate majority from holding up a nominee indefinitely except politics, so yeah, in for a pound is a possibility.
posted by notyou at 7:22 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would love fore this person to be Eric Holder. Very nearly reviled by the RWNJs as much as Obama, Holder on the SCOTUS would be icing on the eat-shit-you-losing-racist-assholes cake.

Meh. Maybe that would rile up the nutter right but if we're dreaming I want someone who has been better on the drug war and other issues (other than when they're one foot out the door). Holder was in charge when Aaron Schwartz was driven to take his own life.

I want someone who spent time as a defense attorney.
posted by phearlez at 7:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

What if the Senate never confirmed another Justice?

tl;dr - they absolutely could decide to do this, until pressure from voters forced them to change their minds.

(edit - what notyou said, but paid by the word)

(edit x 2 - I want someone who spent time as a defense attorney.Rumpole for the Supreme Court 2017! It makes sense, my old darlings)
posted by Devonian at 7:24 PM on August 11, 2016

It would definitely be nice to see some strong-4th-amendment advocates on the court.
posted by Justinian at 7:24 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

If it's a major landslide and/or spills into the mid-terms, I kind of home some of the older justices retire out of spite or something.
posted by VTX at 7:26 PM on August 11, 2016

tl;dr - they absolutely could decide to do this, until pressure from voters forced them to change their minds.

With the way 30-something (40-something?) percent of the electorate cheering Trump on to burn the establishment down we all know nobody is going to get punished for obstructionism. In 2017 instead of "black man in the White House" it's now "woman in the White House" and reliable red states voters will see petty obstructionism as a feature not a bug.
posted by Talez at 7:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would vote Roseanne before I'd vote Jeb(!). Roseanne has clearly demonstrated that she understands how working people in America feel.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

What if the Senate never confirmed another Justice?

tl;dr - they absolutely could decide to do this, until pressure from voters forced them to change their minds.

It's been argued that Obama can take refusal to act as tacit confirmation. It would then become a legal question for the courts to decide, which might go Obama's way and might not.
posted by gerryblog at 7:30 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

If the Senate doesn't blink and Clinton/Obama loses the tacit confirmation argument, though, then yes, I think we're looking at a long term crisis.
posted by gerryblog at 7:31 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

As pointed out by Steve Kornacki on Maddow, Trump basically admitted in his interview with Hugh Hewitt that his Founder of ISIS was purely to get people talking about him, regardless of the damage it does.

Hewitt: "I'd just use different language to communicate it.."

Trump: "But they wouldn't talk about your language and they do talk about my language. Right?"
posted by chris24 at 7:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

What if the Senate never confirmed another Justice?

tl;dr - they absolutely could decide to do this, until pressure from voters forced them to change their minds.

You've also got a period between congresses which might make a recess confirmation possible, but that means waiting till 2019. And a subsequent legal challenge.

I think complete obstruction till we have a crisis is less likely. The House is an asylum because members answer only to small regions. Folks in the Senate have to deal with an entire state, so their need to accommodate an extreme minority is different.
posted by phearlez at 7:36 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

At some point the Supreme Court would lack enough members for a quorum, and that would be a real Constitutional crisis. The US Constitution is predicated on the government having three branches; what do you do when one of them is out to lunch? I almost think this was the path to dictatorship Gödel identified in the Constitution.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am disappointed by how little of the now enormous antiTrump movement and attached cultural phenomena uses the phrase "notrump". Do people not play contract bridge any more?
posted by jackbishop at 7:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Which is BIG REASON #1 why Hillary needs long coattails turning the Senate to a Democrat majority.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

It's been argued that Obama can take refusal to act as tacit confirmation. It would then become a legal question for the courts to decide, which might go Obama's way and might not.

Lots of things have been argued but I think the odds of this argument prevailing are between none and none.
posted by Justinian at 7:40 PM on August 11, 2016

Yeah, it seems that the Court needs a quorum of 6. So you'd only have to have 3 more Justices die/retire before it basically shut down.

Of course, this state of affairs only lasts until both the Presidency and the Senate are controlled by the same party, and then they get to fill every vacancy (by eliminating filibuster, if necessary).

The Republicans might try for that...
posted by thefoxgod at 7:41 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Republicans hold a massive 2018 Senate advantage, they are only defending 8 seats, none of which are in competitive states, while the Democrats are defending 23, including 7 extremely vulerable seats like Joe Manchin in WV, Clarie McCaskill in MO, and Jon Tester in MT. If they hold the Senate this time, or can otherwise deny Clinton her SCOTUS appointment for 16 months or so, they can most likely hold out her entire first term.

I think it's HIGHLY likely they will continue to refuse to let Clinton appoint a Justice unless the Democrats win back the Senate. We're done with norms at this point, Mitch McConnell does not care, and in the Republican's eyes, this is just payback for Robert Bork and Obamacare. If they have the votes, they will not hesitate to use them.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:44 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Today at work I spent about 90 minutes talking with my boss about Trump v Clinton and why he is a die hard Trump supporter. We kept the talk mostly civil but I was not trying to sway his opinion but more trying to understand the Trump appeal.

Of course we went through the common talking points about Clinton, you know the killing people since the 90's, the Clinton Foundation, rigged elections, Benghazi, emails, etc. I think I did a pretty decent job of debunking the individual remarks on each of the things but by the end of it his overall sentiment was "where there's smoke, there's fire".

We talked about Trump's quotes and inciting racial mistrust, Trump U, lack of knowledge, general incompetence, his real estate past, financial failings, his lies from the deposition and his Russia stance. While he generally wrote things off as people not giving Trump the benefit of the doubt he did remark that it is a lot of stuff that "need polish".

My response about 70 minutes in was, if you believe where there's smoke then there must be fire, how could he give such a pass to Trump when we agree that he's missing the mark on several behavioral and impulse control issues. The response at first was that Trump isn't a politician and that is a large appeal, because in my bosses eyes, Congress has failed to get anything done. I absolutely agree with that and we went into a tangent about why no one would vote the clowns out of office for a few minutes. I expected to end up at least feeling like eventually my boss would start to wane because it was one of those positions taken up by the frustration of incompetent Congress.

Then I lost all hope. I don't even know how it came up because it shocked me so much that I only remember him saying "We're going to have a race war." And then "they don't want to work".

I put a lot of back and forth to push back, and he wouldn't even acknowledge that racial issues had been happening for decades (I believe even further than that but I was trying to illustrate incidents since the 90's up until now).

I guess the part that struck me is that the person I'm supposed to respect and trust just outed himself as a racist. During our conversation he indicated that it wasn't just the usual black/white issues but immigrants taking jobs as well. I guess that in his mind he feels it's white's versus everyone else. And that blew my mind. Here's a guy making just under $100k per year in a job where they won' even consider a person if they didn't have a college degree. Yet even from that seat of privilege he feels threatened by people with no chance of taking his job.

I guess in the end I'm just confused as how to react. I mean I've lost respect for him. I wanted to hope someone that's educated and has demonstrated good reasoning skills could eventually see past the Trump bullshit. But it's not even a logical thing at this point and I know there is pretty much nothing I can do to change his mind. Maybe in the far future but definitely not in the short term.

So in the end I guess I'm just wondering how the heck do you get past knowing exactly how shitty their thoughts are? How do you repress the idea that every decision they are making is based on this racist crap in their brain?

And then, do I risk my job by reporting this conversation that occurred behind closed doors? I have no proof other than my word. I know I'd certainly be fired if not immediately then in the near future. I'm not sure how I feel weighing my principle against my livelihood and does that make me just as shitty?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:45 PM on August 11, 2016 [57 favorites]

With the way 30-something (40-something?) percent of the electorate cheering Trump on to burn the establishment down we all know nobody is going to get punished for obstructionism.

I see a lot of strength in this argument. There's really only one counter I can think of: is it possible that even operators like McConnell and Ryan and a significant chunk of the establishment Republican party might be upset or even scared by what's happening now?

If so, I wonder if they can connect the dots and realize this is the direct result of a lot of things they've sown with their obstructionism, which was a prop in an elaborate theatrical production about why Obama and The Federal System building up around him was uniquely horrible and must not be cooperated with, but it also turned out to be one of the parents that gave birth to candidate Trump and the electorate that backs him.

Since I'm not quite "just joking" when I suggest that McConnell serves some kind of nihilistic dark forces (at least metaphorically), I wouldn't count on that. I'd like to believe otherwise, but it seems probable enough that as Reid says, candidate Trump and the current attitude of the GOP are entirely within the range of acceptable (if not optimal) outcomes for the likes of McConnell and Ryan, in which case there's no reason for them to stop doing the things that got us here.

Which is BIG REASON #1 why Hillary needs long coattails turning the Senate to a Democrat majority.

Anybody have a list of the Senate races this year that are either most likely to swing Democrat or are at least most strongly contested?
posted by wildblueyonder at 7:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

We're done with norms at this point, Mitch McConnell does not care, and in the Republican's eyes, this is just payback for Robert Bork and Obamacare.

Waiting a year is a trivial standoff in comparison to trying to wait out an entire Presidential term. I'd expect a no-shit constitutional crisis to precipitate. It could start with lawsuits, or simply Presidential appointment under the assertion that the Senate has consented by its silence, and then we wait to see how the chips fall.

In this particular case, I'd expect the Executive branch to win.
posted by tclark at 7:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Anybody have a list of the Senate races this year that are either most likely to swing Democrat or are at least most strongly contested?

Basically this.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

So there are some very interesting words that have come out of Hillary Clinton's mouth and that is profit sharing

please talk about this because i have no clue

like, "profit sharing" sounds like it addresses one of the major Marxist arguments against capitalism - that workers are dispossessed from the fruits of their labor, because the profits are stolen by the owners. Like. This sounds like a Marxist talking point. This is what that looks like on a capitalist stage. Am I completely wrong about this? ??? ???
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

this is just payback for Robert Bork

We gave them Thomas in exchange for Marshall. They. Owe. Us.
posted by Talez at 7:50 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

So there are some very interesting words that have come out of Hillary Clinton's mouth and that is profit sharing

"Profit" "Sharing" indeed.
posted by Talez at 7:51 PM on August 11, 2016

"they don't want to work".
[...]
immigrants taking jobs as well.

I just can't even
posted by dersins at 7:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

Lots of businesses already have profit sharing plans. Hillary's proposal looks like tax breaks to encourage more businesses to adopt such plans?
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Billy West reading Trump quotes as Zapp Brannigan
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:54 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

"they don't want to work"
...for people like HIM.
He won't admit it, but he probably admires Trump's ability to screw over people he does business with.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:55 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Profit sharing plans are just an employee benefit. This is a tax credit to make it more attractive for companies to set up such a benefit program. So, not marxism, no.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:55 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm sorry you had to listen to all of that, JakeEXTREME.

I just... am I just unusually cynical that I just assume that if you scratch literally any Trump supporter, you'll find a massive racist? (Also probably a misogynist and obviously a xenophobe. Jury is out on LGBTphobia but all signs point to yes.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [22 favorites]

Thank you. I had no idea this was a normal kind of thing.

(ironically profit sharing would completely and utterly not work for Hollywood, because the profit doesn't happen until at least a year after shooting)
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 7:57 PM on August 11, 2016

dersins, in the context he was saying black people don't want to work and immigrants are taking jobs.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 7:57 PM on August 11, 2016

Here's the Department of Labor page on profit sharing plans for small businesses, which I imagine is the sort of thing she has in mind.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

So in more Updates From Republicanland, the state parties are getting pretty desperate. At least here, they're trying to get us to go to screenings of "Hillary's America" to terrify us against voting our conscience. Some people are going because of the social aspect, but some of us are like "I don't even care how bad Hillary may be, this is clearly a Trump promo so screw you."
posted by corb at 7:58 PM on August 11, 2016 [37 favorites]

MetaFilter: this is clearly a Trump promo so screw you.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Jake, I stopped talking about politics at work awhile ago because someone I respected just randomly brought up her belief that Obama is poisoning our water (this was pre-Flint). I was so stunned I just excused myself. She has traveled all over the world, works with lots of POC, and is fine with me being trans and gay. You just never know.
posted by AFABulous at 8:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

Ah yes, Dinesh D'Souza. He made that "2016: Obama's America" movie.

Let's take a look how that turned out:

1: Obama will not do anything to stop Iran from getting their nuclear bombs
2: he will increase the deficit
3: he may cut the military and raise taxes.

So, 0/3 then -- deficit is down, taxes are not up, Iran deal achieved.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

. At least here, they're trying to get us to go to screenings of "Hillary's America" to terrify us against voting our conscience.

This is the movie I mentioned at Trivia, that my clients wanted to discuss! It boils down to "Hillary is a racist, because she's a Democrat, just like Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:08 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also this review of his "Hillary's America" film is pretty funny.

D’Souza’s latest film, “Hillary’s America: The Secret History of the Democratic Party,” a work that almost makes his previous cinematic efforts, “2016: Obama’s America” and “America” seem lucid and well-reasoned by comparison.

“Hillary’s America” may well be the single dumbest documentary that I have ever seen in my life—nearly two hours of poisonous bluster and anti-historical rhetoric that comes across like the desperate ravings of someone trying to make a few more bucks by rehashing the same nonsense before his gravy train finally leaves town.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:17 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Am I reading this right? Trump wants to send US citizens to Gitmo for military tribunal trial?

He really hasn't read the Constitution, has he?
posted by Devonian at 8:18 PM on August 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

Remember Jimmy Carter's brother Billy?

I remember when he went to Libya to found Isis
posted by thelonius at 8:20 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Am I reading this right? Trump wants to send US citizens to Gitmo for military tribunal trial?

He really hasn't read the Constitution, has he?

I know this guy who's willing to lend him a copy.
posted by dersins at 8:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [32 favorites]

I haven't had to yet (no Trump signs in the neighborhood or Trump hats in stores I've shopped), but I've developed a scheme for dealing with Trump supporters I may encounter. And that would be to scare the shit out of them by declaring my enthusiastic support for all the things Trumpists refuse to admit.

"His alliance with Putin and Russia will revive America's influence around the world!"
"His Economic Plan's tax cuts for the top 1% will rebuild our affluence from the top down!"
"Who needs any other infrastructure work when you're building the Border Wall?"
"The end of the Death Tax will allow every CEO position to become hereditary... because who knows better than the boss's kids? Not you or me, right?"
"With his experience shortpaying people and going through bankruptcy, we can count on him to balance the budget by forcing a downgrade of the National Debt and cutting Social Security payments!"
"And that 35% tariff... when all those prices go up 35%, you'll know what NOT to buy!"
"He'll replace Obamacare with a system that makes Health Care the privilege it should be, and reduce the overcrowding of hospitals!"
"When we kick out all the Muslims, we'll finally be on our way to being a truly Christian nation!"
"A couple Hiroshima-sized bombs dropped on the centers of ISIS activity and the World will fear us once again... do we still have any nukes that small?"

It'll be my greatest performance since that college production of Man for All Seasons when I played the Orson Welles part with a vocal range an octave too high.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [60 favorites]

I'm not sure how I feel weighing my principle against my livelihood and does that make me just as shitty?

If you're not being asked to aid and abet racist shittery then I say no; you have to put your own oxygen mask on first. You're a more useful ally if you're employed and not scrabbling to live.
posted by phearlez at 8:25 PM on August 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

Presidential candidates leading polls at this point in the campaign have almost always won:

Indeed, [Robert Erikson and Christopher Wlezien] looked at general election contests going back to 1952, and found that the candidate who was in the lead two weeks after the conventions ended went on to win the popular vote every single time.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah, it seems that the Court needs a quorum of 6. So you'd only have to have 3 more Justices die/retire before it basically shut down.

I've given this some more thought, and I think there's actually a way out of that situation - it would still be a crisis, but there's a potential resolution to it.

The President is also the Commander in Chief. She can surround the Senate with troops and refuse to let them leave without giving their "advice and consent" regarding her nominees. Alternatively, she can force them into recess and appoint them herself. Yes, she might be impeached later, but the judge presiding would be the Chief Justice - presumably her appointee - and it would require a 2/3 majority for conviction.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:28 PM on August 11, 2016

> It'll be my greatest performance since that college production of Man for All Seasons when I played the Orson Welles part with a vocal range an octave too high.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:23 PM on August 11 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

I suspect you may run into Poe's Law-related problems with this scheme...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

The President is also the Commander in Chief. She can surround the Senate with troops and refuse to let them leave without giving their "advice and consent" regarding her nominees.

This is fine.
posted by dis_integration at 8:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [29 favorites]

Trying to figure out who the left-wing equivalent to Trump would be. Features to note:

1) Trump is not actually far-right-extremist; he's come out as pro-choice in the past, and LGBT-tolerant, in the sense of "I don't care what people do in their hotel rooms as long as they're paying the rent to me" (not an actual quote)
2) Long-time celebrity; many controversies that are hollywood fuel but political death... until now
3) "Big businessman" - no matter how true it is, that's his image, and "business" is one of the key buzzwords of the Republican party
4) 100% douchecanoe asshole - says what's on his mind, and what's on his mind is that he's awesome and the rest of the world is full of shit if they don't agree.

so Democrat version would be, hrm,

1) More right-wing than many progressives are comfortable with - maybe anti-abortion, or big on "morality," or pro-Citizens United, or just insulting of Occupy and its goals
2) A celebrity with a long and colorful career, possibly including convictions
3) Probably a performing artist - the left focuses more on the value of individuality and "following your dreams," so a successful celebrity candidate would probably have an arts career of some sort. I'm thinking rock star. Probably failed rock star, or solo member of long-broken-up formerly successful band.
4) Again, asshole - the left wing is no less susceptible to "honesty" that's really narcissistic cruelty with a veneer of joking. The vocabulary and target of the hate would be different; the actual content would be substantially the same - with most people on the left saying, "ugh, those are... maybe what some of our party thinks, kinda, but no, not like, that, no really..."

I disagree with Roseanne Barr, not because she's not assholish enough (I... don't think she is? But that's secondary) but because this kind of power play requires starting from the top of the privilege heap, and a fat woman is not going to get that kind of support.

I don't have a person in mind. Anyone know of a 40-to-50 year old white male washout rock star who gets lots of laughs when he's a jerk to up-and-comers in the industry? (Yeah, I know Trump's 70. I'd expect similar appeal on the left to run younger.) Maybe a hacker rather than a stage performer?

Google, google... oh, this is promising....

Axl Rose, maybe?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

The President is also the Commander in Chief. She can surround the Senate with troops and refuse to let them leave without giving their "advice and consent" regarding her nominees.

This is a blatant violation of law and the troops would be duty bound to disobey such an order.
posted by Justinian at 8:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump wants to send US citizens to Gitmo for military tribunal trial?

Welp, that is a new one, at least to me. Hillary is right, there really is no bottom here. I don't know why I continue to be surprised, but I am.

God, the DNC only ended two weeks ago.
posted by gatorae at 8:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's good of Doothwaite to reminds us that imaginary Democrats are just as bad
posted by thelonius at 8:35 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trying to figure out who the left-wing equivalent to Trump would be.

I think trying to figure out what song each candidate is is more important. So far I'm thinking Trump is Locomotive Breath and Clinton is Tusk.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't have a person in mind.

Bill Maher, Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:41 PM on August 11, 2016

Am I reading this right? Trump wants to send US citizens to Gitmo for military tribunal trial?

Every journalist should be shitting their pants right about now.
posted by Talez at 8:44 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

ErisLordFreedom, your qualifications tend to make me lean toward Charlie Sheen.

And my goal is not to parody anything, but to give them 'principles' opposed to the ones they espouse for supporting Dirty Donald.
They deny deny deny when anti-Trumpers point out his Putin connection, I'll declare it a good thing. And they're still talking up his "populist" politics after his Economic Policy speech has gone totally trickle-down, so I'll declare that the best thing ever.
Basically I intend to enthusiastically support Trump for things that I hate they'll never admit to. It'll either plant a bushel of seeds of doubt, or just save me from ever having to talk to them again.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Of course we went through the common talking points about Clinton, you know the killing people since the 90's, the Clinton Foundation, rigged elections, Benghazi, emails, etc. I think I did a pretty decent job of debunking the individual remarks on each of the things but by the end of it his overall sentiment was "where there's smoke, there's fire".

I can't recall where I read this but will quote it anyway: there isn't fire, there is a smoke machine.
posted by thelonius at 8:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [44 favorites]

If Hillary is Tusk, surely Trump is Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 8:47 PM on August 11, 2016

The left-wing version of Donald Trump is Donald Trump. He'd just sell a different line of bullshit with the same histrionics. There's only one Donald.
posted by dis_integration at 8:48 PM on August 11, 2016 [44 favorites]

ahahaha I'm sure the immigration press conference will stay entirely on the rails, and its associated media cycle won't totally end with Paul Ryan testily insisting that Trump was just kidding about imprisoning Democrats in Guantanamo Bay with zika mosquitos or whatever

I...I promise to stop making "joke" predictions that I think are hyperbolic in these threads
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:49 PM on August 11, 2016 [37 favorites]

The left-wing version of Donald Trump is Donald Trump. He'd just sell a different line of bullshit with the same histrionics. There's only one Donald.

Except there's no bullshit or histrionics that would win him the nomination as a Dem. What's the D version of being offensively racist or the issue or tactic that would give a buffoon a large win over Clinton or Sanders. Hell, O'Malley.
posted by chris24 at 8:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

> the candidate who was in the lead two weeks after the conventions ended went on to win the popular vote every single time.

Not particularly reassuring, considering the precedent-stomping nature of the current election cycle.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:52 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

There can be no leftwing version of Trump because there is no leftwing equivalent to the Republican base. Trump is merely the symptom, the disease is the racist, fascist, know-nothing hatemongers that have been cultivated and encouraged by the Right for decades.
posted by chris24 at 8:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

From that Miami Herald article:

Trump got things started by mentioning a new national Rasmussen poll whose results he liked because they showed him virtually tied with Clinton.

Which apparently is this one. White House Watch: Clinton 43%, Trump 40%, Johnson 8%, Stein 2%

538's Polls Plus is still showing 76.6% for Clinton, but I'd like that margin to be higher, thanks
posted by Existential Dread at 9:01 PM on August 11, 2016

I promise to stop making "joke" predictions that I think are hyperbolic in these threads

Is this some kind of hyperbolic joke
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Hillary is Tusk, surely Trump is Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap.

This is the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure crossover I didn't know I needed.
posted by KChasm at 9:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Clinton's closing song: "Ain't No Mountain High Enough"
Trump's closing song: "You Can't Always Get What You Want"
posted by kirkaracha at 9:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

"You Can't Always Get What You Want" baffles me every time someone mentions it. What message does he think that's sending?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:09 PM on August 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I assume he's sending the message that "you'll get what you need".

And get it good and hard.
posted by Reverend John at 9:11 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

What message does he think that's sending?

"Fuck you, Rolling Stones!"
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

What message does he think that's sending?

"I may not be what you want, but I am what you need."
posted by dersins at 9:12 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's kind of the message of every strongman ever, innit?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

As if Trump would ever admit to being even hypothetically undesirable.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:16 PM on August 11, 2016

Well, I mean, yeah.
posted by dersins at 9:16 PM on August 11, 2016

Every time each day I have free time to poke around the Internet I imagine myself as an actor in some cheesy 80's sitcom saying, "Oh, Trump, what have you gotten yourself into this time?"

And then this ALF-like character looks up at me, with his mouth covered in ground-up Cheetos after fucking the cat or something, and then just shrugs.

"Oh, Trump."

Every time I have free time to poke around the Internet.
posted by My Dad at 9:26 PM on August 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

"You don't think you want me, but you do, believe me, and you need me, too."
posted by stolyarova at 9:27 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'd think the Democratic version of Trump would have to be someone like Bill Hicks (though obviously not Hicks himself being dead and all), a comedian-type with a strong cult of personality who uses language in ways that can be interpreted ambiguously (imagine running a campaign along the lines of his "Any people in advertising in the audience" shtick), where his strongest support would come from an intensely dedicated group of dissatisfied young people less interested in policy than in attacks on the status quo.

Such a candidate would need a situation like Trump found, with a number of other dry rivals in the primaries, and uncertainty about the future to make any headway, but if they could gain some initial footing, they could be difficult to counter given the unending need so many people seem to have to be entertained above all else and a general attitude of superiority that could translate into gross simplification of complex problems and blind faith in their ability to accomplish "things".

They need not necessarily rely on race as a dividing point, though there is nothing necessarily preventing a democrat from being racist, they could instead threaten any number of other institutions or long standing policies under the rubric of "common sense".
posted by gusottertrout at 9:37 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Amy Schumer + 20 years.
posted by stolyarova at 9:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

zachlipton: "During his MetaFilter comment, zachlipton will be gagging at people who talk about themselves in the third person."

Bob Dole doesn't like this comment.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:51 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

TRUMP: Our Steve levels are dangerously low. We're bottoming out. Shove a few more in the hopper.
REINCE: The... the hopper?
TRUMP: Sometimes they don't wanna go, you gotta jam 'em in with a broom or something.
posted by um at 10:00 PM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

"You Can't Always Get What You Want"
Thanks for reminding me of that; it'll be valuable in my gaslighting approach to Trump supporters: "When he used that song, he was assuring all of us he wouldn't give us what we think we want, he'll give us what we need, and he is the only one who can do it because he's the one who knows what it is. As he's said about a lot of things, 'Only I can do it.' America has never had a leader who has really told us upfront that he is taking charge and he knows better than all of us, and that's what we really need now."
"Now he's not saying..."
"Come on, he has said that in every speech and that's just what we're voting for!"
Some fake enthusiasm for a fascist approach toward ALL OF US, not just "THEM" is what should drive soft-core Trumpists crazy, because I'm on THEIR side, right? And as I noted, I have no good reason to make friends of these people, just see if I can make their heads explode. And if they actually agree with more than a little of my bullshit, I'll know that they are garbage people I'll never want to talk to ever again.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is a blatant violation of law and the troops would be duty bound to disobey such an order.

Article II enumerated powers are interesting, though:

[s]he may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, [s]he may adjourn them to such time as [s]he shall think proper

The workaround to avoid recess appointments in the Senate has been pro forma sessions every three days with a single senator on duty (e.g. the 30-second session on August 9th) but there's room for a president to yank the chain of Congress. Convene the Senate at 3am on a Sunday, every Sunday.
posted by holgate at 10:01 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

What message does he think that's sending?

He paid the licensing fees for this song during the republican primary when it was relevant, but he doesn't understand the ECON 101 concept of sunk costs so he's just going to use it over and over again to try to get his money's worth.
posted by peeedro at 10:04 PM on August 11, 2016

How is there any question who the Trump of the left would be?

It's obviously Kanye West.

Hell, he's literally already said he'd run.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Roger Stone Tells Alex Jones He Will Be "Laying Out A Very Specific Plan" To Fight The "Effort To Steal The Next Election"

We know Trump listens to Alex Jones religiously and Jones' shit is a direct precursor to Trump's free form association on stage. They're laying the ground work for insurrection.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:07 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Roger Stone Tells Alex Jones He Will Be "Laying Out A Very Specific Plan" To Fight The "Effort To Steal The Next Election"
Fixed that. Remember: Projection is what Trump and his team do best.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:11 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

What message does he think that's sending?

"I am the one who rocks."
posted by kirkaracha at 10:14 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Honestly, I think the liberal version of Trump would be Mr. Rogers.

I think the issue at hand is that the conservative/republican/whatever have you ideal (which has clearly been taken to an absurd extreme) is demonstrated by Trump's pathology. Fearful, angry, belligerent, ignorant, untrusting, etc. With all due respect to well meaning & more centrist conservatives, it is the party of caution, restraint, etc. So you take all of those measures and amplify them to a ridiculous degree, & you end up with this hate-spewing demagogue.

On the other hand, the liberal/progressive/democratic ideal is one of inclusiveness, sharing, looking out for one another, spend what it takes, give 'til it hurts, etc. If you were to take those qualities & amplify them to an extreme, you get Fred Rogers. This infinitely mockable, silly man (how can he believe I'm special? If I'm special & he's special, & she's special, then no one is special!).

And yet, what's fascinating (to me) is that Mr. Rogers isn't a joke at all. He's profoundly more than the sum of his parts. His messages of charity & love reverberate with his "base" same as Trump's hostility & fear.

And I have no *doubt* that the deeply racist/xenophobic/misogynistic/etc. right would loathe, hate, & fear him the same way we loathe, hate, & fear Trump.

The light hates the encroachment of dark & the dark hates the encroachment of light or something.

Anyway. That's why I think it's difficult to come up with the liberal version of Trump, because a hate-spewing, fearful, demagogue-ish candidate wouldn't really be appealing to the liberal base any more than Trump does. We'd want someone cartoonishly loving & charitable, someone so thoughtful & PC it'd make Trump's head spin.

And I'd be all for him.
posted by narwhal at 10:15 PM on August 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

She can surround the Senate with troops and refuse to let them leave without giving their "advice and consent" regarding her nominees.

Sweet Jesus, no. I can think of few things more likely to precipitate a horrible situation in America than surrounding the Senate with troops.

In fact, I think that's the "liberals would love, conservatives would be deeply terrified of" answer - a president who's okay sending federal troops into areas to solve problems like that with military force.
posted by corb at 10:22 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

What about drunk Mr Rogers?

"Well whaddya mean I can't take off my sweater? I'm HOT!"
posted by um at 10:23 PM on August 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm as liberal as they come and I'd be horrified by Obama or Clinton or any Democrat sending troops into DC as pressure on the Senate. Not just because of the appearance of a coup, but also because I'd have to listen to all the right-wing conspiracy nutters screaming "WE WERE RIGHT!! TOLD YOU!!" until the end of time.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:25 PM on August 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Left-wing Trump would pander to my WOC anger with aggressive, overheated rhetoric against white people and straight cis men. Saying that all cops are racist pigs and murderers, talking about how white imperialism fucks over the world (kinda "white imperialists founded ISIS!"), blaming alienated white dude culture for mass shootings, etc. He'd propose an unconstitutional gun ban forbidding white men to own weapons and double down on it. Not sure what the equivalent of the border wall would be, but maybe massive large scale reparations? "The reparations just got $10 billion bigger!" Whenever I think about Opposite Trump's talking points, I begin to understand a little of the (disgusting) visceral appeal of an asshole who's our asshole. "Sure, maybe a president shouldn't talk like that...but he's saying what needs to be said!"

And yeah, I think Kanye "George Bush doesn't care about black people" West could be it. He's an unstable narcissist who'd run as a vanity project instead of being bound to any particular ideology. Trump pisses off right wingers (and everyone) by insulting veterans; Kanye would piss off the social justice left wing by calling women bitches. Trump's campaign inner circle is his children; Kanye's would be the Kardashian-Jenner clan. And most importantly, imagine the Kanye campaign tweetstorms! He'd never have to spend a cent on advertising EVER.
posted by spaet at 10:29 PM on August 11, 2016 [60 favorites]

Left-wing Trump would pander to my WOC anger

After reading your description, maybe Cornel West if he just got a bit nuttier.
posted by dis_integration at 10:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Spaet has me totally sold on Kanye as the "hello from the other side" version of Trump.

And yeah, I wouldn't vote for him, but I'd probably be pretty glad to have him stirring up "the right kind" of shit.
posted by Superplin at 10:37 PM on August 11, 2016

Khizr Khan Asks ‘Hero’ John McCain To Reject Donald Trump
posted by bongo_x at 10:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Oof those Kanye comparisons are right on, spaet! I can imagine being corb 16 years from now going nuts over how insane my party had become...
posted by numaner at 10:45 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's no good to decide that the demon version of the Left is Mr. Rogers. There have been monsters of the left: Mao, and Hugo Chavez, to name two. Of course chronic malignant class resentment can be a pretext for authoritarian control. But it is important to point out that an ideology that panders too hard to your own narrow way of seeing the world can be dangerous, no matter how it starts.

Anyone who believes that their own ideology represents the Light exclusively, while their opponent's ideology represents Darkness scares me. Fear your own tendencies first.
posted by argybarg at 10:51 PM on August 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

Honestly, I think the liberal version of Trump would be Mr. Rogers.

This is the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny.
posted by stolyarova at 10:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also maybe this is where I should confess that I never really liked Mr. Rogers all that much. As a grownup I have great respect for his role in modeling kindness for a couple of generations of kids, but when I was a child myself, I found him boring and slightly off-putting in the same way as certain very churchy family friends.

This probably reveals terrible things about me.

I'd still vote for Mr. Rogers over Trump any day. Possibly even posthumously.
posted by Superplin at 10:57 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

JK
posted by erisfree at 10:57 PM on August 11, 2016

What would the Left's equivalent to Trump be?

The love child of Michael Moore and Oliver Stone, raised by Bernie or Busters.
posted by msalt at 10:59 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Oh Christ, Oliver Stone. There's one I can't stand. I would vote for Jeb Bush before him.
posted by argybarg at 11:02 PM on August 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Is it Bob Avakian? Is this finally the question to which Bob Avakian is the answer?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:04 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's really hard to identify a Trump of the left because of all the racism, sexism, and xenophobia. It's not that everyone on the left is perfect in these regards, far from it, but Trump's own name is literally being used to taunt Hispanic and Muslim people right now: kids shout it at each other on the playground, opposing fans shout it at high school sports, and idiots shout it at professional baseball games. Who on the left could become an insult like that?

Louis Farrakhan I suppose comes to mind as the closest candidate for Trump of the left (ignoring his age and health problems for the purpose of this exercise) in that regard, but it's still not a great comparison.
posted by zachlipton at 11:14 PM on August 11, 2016

I don't think a Trump of the Left is supposed to be racist and xenophobic but rather a fanatic about things with which the Left is more closely aligned.
posted by Justinian at 11:16 PM on August 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Yes, think of who would be such an exaggeration of the worst tendencies of the Left, mixed with a toxic personality, that you would reject that person.
posted by argybarg at 11:20 PM on August 11, 2016

Since we're on the topic of alt-universe Trumps, I can't imagine an Internationalist/Globalist Trump would be possible in the US. He/she would pretty much push for TPP, form the NAU/push to join the EU, increasing foreign assistance, push to let a million refugees into the US, make the immigration system much easier, create an economy where more than 5% of the US citizenry is working/studying abroad (we're at about .5% now, though Wikipedia says it might be as high as 3%), join the ICC/landmine ban/other treaties, join in UN peackeeping efforts, replenish/expand our diplomatic corps, and while we're at it speak at least 3 languages, has an extensive history of living/working abroad, and is a fan of soccer, cricket, and field hockey.
posted by FJT at 11:21 PM on August 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah so the military solution (!) to a SCOTUS nomination impasse is a ridiculously bad idea. Fortunately, in an under-sea base east of the Diomede Islands in the Bering Strait there is a chamber ringed with cryogenic sarcophagi which contain nine more clones of Notorious RBG. As each of them already implicitly nominated and confirmed, if push comes to shove it's just a matter of having as many brought out of cold sleep as needed.
posted by XMLicious at 11:25 PM on August 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

I liked it better when Trump just fucked up steaks.
posted by mazola at 11:26 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Don't worry about the Democrat/Liberal/Leftist Trumps you wouldn't vote for, worry about the Trumps you would.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 11:33 PM on August 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

I can think of few things more likely to precipitate a horrible situation in America than surrounding the Senate with troops.

It would only be worth considering if and when at least three justices have died and the Senate continues to block any replacements. It could happen this term if we're very unlucky, but if the Senate continues to block replacements it will happen.

Consider what happens with no Supreme Court. There will be many people executed with no appeals having been heard; many contradictory Federal court rulings that need to be resolved; and very possibly disagreements about the legitimacy of some elections. It would already be a horrible situation and it would be getting worse. That's when you need a circuit breaker and fortunately the President has the ability to do it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:38 PM on August 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Except there's no bullshit or histrionics that would win him the nomination as a Dem. What's the D version of being offensively racist or the issue or tactic that would give a buffoon a large win over Clinton or Sanders. Hell, O'Malley.

There can be no leftwing version of Drumpf because there is no leftwing equivalent to the Republican base.

Could be. But I've watched Empire Strikes Back a bunch of times, so that's not an assumption I'm comfortable making. I think gusottertrout is right - the leftwing celebrity tyrant would probably sound a lot like Bill Hicks. He would give voice to all those assumptions of rational superiority that lurk within the continuum of ideas that make up my left-sympathetic identity. He would encourage all that unprocessed frustration I feel with the rightwing to fester, then to burst and flow. He would have me focus on all the worst examples of the people I disagree with until I saw all of them as united in villainy. He would tell me that the worst impulses within me were the correct ones to succumb to and I might love him for it because those also happen to be the easiest. My fear and frustration could be twisted if a Strong Man spoke to them while I was weak. If he made me believe that all the people I was already mad at were responsible for holding back my bright future or destroying my storied past - say nothing of my family or friends - who knows what he might talk me into?

The test of the Dagobah Cave never ends. The place where I failed it in recent times was the bloom of black joy I felt when Kim Davis went to jail over her refusal to process marriage licenses for same-sex couples. My lefty belief in full citizenship, dignity and rights for all human beings found its way all the way back around to connect to a bitter, hateful feeling towards a fellow American. I continue to believe Kim Davis is wrong to oppose marriage equality, but it's still fucked up that I was stoked to see a political opponent go to jail. I get sick and angry when I hear a crowd chant "Lock Her Up!" about my candidate but I need to recognize that a germ of that same evil lives in me. Working things out democratically takes forever and I never get everything I want from any Congress, Court, or Administration. Wouldn't it be so much nicer for me if everyone had to get what I wanted for once?

There is room aplenty in the left end of United States political thought to believe in absurdities and to want revenge - two pillars of Trumpism, in my view. I'm certainly not saying "both sides" have succumbed at the moment. Drumpf's constituency is lost to their rage and despair and I honestly don't know how you reach someone who has coal-rolled that deep into AM radio email forwards world. The leftwing's road to Trumpism would probably be paved with more usuncut and addictinginfo links than Glenn Beck gold sale flyers, but there's enough anger in the tank to get us there if we started to make the trip. After all, it becomes something of a downhill drive past a certain point.

I don't know what I can do about the way a Trumpist thinks today. Lately, I'm thinking my responsibility might be more to step back and reexamine which feelings and impulses I pick up and consume from my own big sushi conveyer belt of thoughts. Like Todd Golden said and was quoted the other day, Drumpf puts everyone I've ever disliked into perspective. How I would love to have back the political foes I used to be angry with!

Everything feels upside down right now. This is the election where I got frustrated with Susan Sarandon, but hoped that people would listen to Lindsey Graham and Mitt Romney. The Bush family has spoken words that I've agreed with more than Kshama Sawant's. Drumpf riling up the racists and risking the union has me looking around and realizing I've had more in common with my former "enemies" than I ever thought, and that some folks I thought I shared a bloc with don't see the Big Picture the same way I do. How quaint those old disagreements about fiscal policy and the role of the church in public life seem now when I watch those uncensored NYT videos of Drumpf crowds!

I would agree that the seeds of the current horror were present in past Republican presidential campaigns, but the horror didn't used to be the entire platform. And right now I guess I'm too scared to worry overmuch about who is or is not to blame. I'm hoping I'll remember this upside down, tilted Earth feeling once Clinton is in office. I think defeating Trumpism long term will involve a laying down of anger, even if I think that anger justified. Those I called my enemies love their babies, want to eat some good food, and want to get to somewhere warm at night. I don't see what good can come of sitting in judgment of people anymore. I'm so tired of being scared and angry, and I can't remember a single decision I've made in anger that I felt good about later. And in this moment of crisis, I'm only now seeing there are Republicans I could have been working with this whole time.

The hope I feel in this election comes from seeing Republicans peeling off from their party's current course and joining the left in objecting to Drumpf, and to his outrages against the nation's core ideals. The encouragement I feel comes from realizing that many of my former opponents love the same things as I do about this country, if perhaps from different angles. Corb, I was so inspired by your fight to stop Drumpf cold at the RNC, and I'm proud to be resisting him with you now in the general election. I want so badly to look back on this election like one of those awesome issues of X-Men where Magneto and Xavier are up against something so horrible that their former squabbles seem as petty as they always were. I want this election to be Reed Richards and Dr. Doom agreeing that there can be no world to save or rule if Galactus devours it first. I want Americans to remember how to trust and hold fast to one another before we're any closer to the brink. I want Drumpf to be remembered as the Watchmen Squid Alien of American Democracy.

tl;dr: We're Stronger Together.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:40 PM on August 11, 2016 [70 favorites]

Didn't want to let this pass without a bit of comment:

And then, do I risk my job by reporting this conversation that occurred behind closed doors? I have no proof other than my word. I know I'd certainly be fired if not immediately then in the near future. I'm not sure how I feel weighing my principle against my livelihood and does that make me just as shitty?

Hell no, none of that makes you shitty, no matter how you react to it, because you are not responsible for your boss' thoughts, feelings, and words. In my estimation, there really is no principle involved: you had an experience with a person's shitty thoughts, is what happened. There is little to report here, certainly if the personal consequence to you is extremely negative, because your boss didn't do anything other than let his mask slip for a bit.

Perhaps if you found his comments so unnerving and the impact on you so significant and persistent that it rose to the level of harassment or threatening speech, it would be actionable--but that's not what you indicated. Rather, you're tremendously unnerved to discover that your boss is a fucking racist (which is, to be clear, a perfectly reasonable and even laudable response), but have not seen him act in racist ways, or persist in speech or behavior after being told that it is offensive, or other actions that move expression of thoughts (even offensive or odious ones) into the realm of harassment or assault. So don't let a racist asshole provoke you into losing your job just because of what a terrible person you've discovered he is. Be vigilant that he is not allowed to translate that into any behavior that is harmful to other people, but protect yourself first.

I think this is important for all of us to remember as we encounter Trump supporters in the wild: there is a difference between "OMG I cannot believe you actually believe that, you are a terrible person" and "you are not allowed to think that way, it's wrong and something must be done about your wrongness."

I just can't be responsible for all the stupid that's coming from some folks: I produce enough stupid of my own to handle, thanks, and my spare energy really needs to go to mitigating any damage their stupid is causing.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:46 PM on August 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

> Not sure what the equivalent of the border wall would be

Free abortions for all, free college for all, guaranteed basic income (with a secret plan for how our will work). Promises to repeal the secojd amendement, plus unlimited funding for gun buy back programs until it's repealed, combined with promising all violence will stop. Forever. How? Well, they'll hire the best people. Unlimited funding to NASA. No more money to the military or defense contractors. Laws prohibiting casual racism. Unfunding the DEA and stopping the war on drugs.

More interesting than who would play the left's Trump is to think about what pet policies you would "sell out" for.
posted by fragmede at 11:53 PM on August 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

We already elected our Trump, and his name was Bill Clinton.
posted by nom de poop at 12:13 AM on August 12, 2016

I don't understand the comparison? Clinton had been governor of a state and was quite accomplished politically. And had relatively centrist views on a bunch of issues? How was he Trump-like?
posted by Justinian at 12:16 AM on August 12, 2016 [22 favorites]

During the Obama/Romney election cycle four years ago, I saw a few mentions of Votamatic.org, the site of one of the election forecasters whose prediction ultimately turned out to be correct. I didn't really pay close attention to the site itself until a MeFite specifically mentioned the name of the statistician behind the analysis: Drew Linzer. This made me do a double take, because in a previous life I knew someone also called Drew Linzer. (Yes, turned out to be the same person!)

Anyway, for folks here following election forecasts: I happened to check back today and was pleased to find that he added a new post to Votamatic this week (the previous update was for the 2014 midterms). He'll be forecasting this year's presidential election on an upcoming new site in collaboration with DailyKos Elections.

(i.e. more browser tabs that I'll keep open for the next three months)
posted by rangefinder 1.4 at 12:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Literally Just 14 Lucille Bluth Quotes on Pictures of Donald Trump
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:50 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think the "fictional character quotes on pictures of Donald Trump" meme is revealing something... years of watching Jack Donaghy, Zapp Brannigan, Lucille Bluth and the like have conditioned a large part of the population to accept the pathological behavior that Trumpy exhibits in real life...
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:25 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

There is an historical figure who could be called something like a liberal Trump or a liberal facist -- Juan Peron in Argentina.
posted by msalt at 1:37 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Remember Jimmy Carter's brother Billy?

I remember Carter's chief of staff Hamilton Jordan, who sat next to the Egyptian Ambassador's wife at an official state dinner, stared at her chest and said "Now I've REALLY seen the Great Pyramids!"

Good times.
posted by msalt at 1:55 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

You guys need to try harder, so far none of the "monsters of the left" you've proposed, nor their supposed wack policies, have me anything but excited at the prospect.

The left equivalent of the "border wall" would have to encompass these points:

• It would have to be a pointless exercise designed to appeal to know-nothing voters on the left, but the utter idiocy of the idea would be apparent to anyone with more than five neurons
• It would have to provide a lot of pork to pet corporations or organizations of the left, complete with cost overruns and graft
• It would have to have a big "fuck you" symbolic meaning to a large segment of the population on the right just by its very existence
• It would have to be paid for by the corporations or people it is a fuck-you to
• It has to have a physical presence, something to say "fuck you" every day for decades to come
• It has to fit into a sound bite
• Even if you had to be an idiot to think it was going to work, there has to be at least a shred of plausibility to the idea so more "moderate" people on the left can argue for it if they need to

Every idea I have actually would have some benefit, so...dunno.
posted by maxwelton at 1:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Maybe someone promising to solve the problem of abortion access by building one enormous mega clinic large enough to serve every woman in America seeking an abortion? "We'll have daily flights from every state in the union, and we'll pay for it with a tax on churches."
posted by straight at 2:12 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Every idea I have actually would have some benefit, so...dunno.

Albanian bunkers.

Or are we limited to suggestions from US history?
posted by Autumn Leaf at 3:08 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

The most plausible left-wing version of Donald Trump would probably be a lot like Donald Trump: the right has no monopoly on anti-immigration sentiment or fear of Islam, and the protectionist economics would appeal to plenty on the left. The Republican party may have created the context for Donald Trump, but I don’t know that most of his base are actually committed to ‘conservative’ ideas about economics and the role of government.

A protectionist, anti-Wall Street, anti-trade, anti-immigration economic populist stirring up fears of radical Islam might manage to win the Democratic nomination in a sufficiently divided field. Like a sort of horrific amalgam of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 3:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

It would have to be a pointless exercise designed to appeal to know-nothing voters on the left, but the utter idiocy of the idea would be apparent to anyone with more than five neurons

Chemical free water for all! Paid for with a tax on all companies that produce chemicals.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 3:55 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

… and of course the cozying up to Russia and the flattering comments about foreign dictators would fit on the left as well.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 3:56 AM on August 12, 2016

It would have to be a pointless exercise designed to appeal to know-nothing voters on the left, but the utter idiocy of the idea would be apparent to anyone with more than five neurons

A free Tesla for everyone in America.

Paid for with a 1000% gasoline tax.
posted by box at 4:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

GOP insiders: Trump can't win
'Trump is underperforming so comprehensively...it would take video evidence of a smiling Hillary drowning a litter of puppies while terrorists surrounded her with chants of ‘Death to America,’' said an Iowa Republican.
posted by syzygy at 4:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

...video evidence of a smiling Hillary drowning a litter of puppies while terrorists surrounded her with chants of ‘Death to America,’'
...which is currently in production at a Russian SFX studio,
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:31 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

And if the same video showed Trump instead you'd have the GOP falling over themselves explaining how the media has twisted the story yet again because first of all, they were terrorist puppies...
posted by like_neon at 4:33 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Do you suppose that it will dawn on anyone in the GOP establishment that the party brought Trump on themselves through years of pandering to the basest instincts of voters?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:34 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

From the article:
Do you think the race to 270 electoral votes is effectively over?

Republicans
51% No
49% Yes

Democrats
72% No
28% Yes

I approve of this trend. The democrats must stay hypervigilant until election day.
posted by like_neon at 4:37 AM on August 12, 2016 [42 favorites]

This also goes way beyond the race to 270. Every percentage point, every electoral vote we win beyond 270, is one more message to the American public that Trump's bullshit is not something decent Americans will stand for.

And every percentage point or electoral vote Donald Trump does win in November will be one more bit of shame for the whole country. One more thing the entire world can point to and say "look at those stupid racist Americans."

Trump doesn't just need to lose, he needs to lose BIGLY. Otherwise people will see horrible racist people spouting hateful things and think "Hey, that's the kind of guy who we ALMOST elected President. That guy qualified for President ALMOST as much as Hillary Clinton did."
posted by mmoncur at 4:47 AM on August 12, 2016 [45 favorites]

[s]he may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, [s]he may adjourn them to such time as [s]he shall think proper

When Clinton is elected, anyone want to start a countdown clock until someone argues that anything she does as president is invalid because the Constitution explicitly refers to a man?
posted by steady-state strawberry at 4:49 AM on August 12, 2016 [22 favorites]

In fact, I think that's the "liberals would love, conservatives would be deeply terrified of" answer - a president who's okay sending federal troops into areas to solve problems like that with military force.

What the hell makes you think liberals would LIKE a president who sent federal troops to solve problems with military force? What the hell did you think that anti-war protests are even about?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Oh it's cool guys, Trump was being sarcastic about the Obama founding ISIS thing.

It's the equivelent of "Sike!" Hahaahhaaa stupid media, can't take a joke!

Um how about all your fans that believed the first 100 times you said it? Can you tell them to get a sense of humour too?
posted by like_neon at 4:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

If you only read one article this week, it should be The Atlantic: How American Politics Went Insane This will be the one that everyone interested in politics will be discussing this week.

Trump, however, didn’t cause the chaos. The chaos caused Trump. What we are seeing is not a temporary spasm of chaos but a chaos syndrome.

Chaos syndrome is a chronic decline in the political system’s capacity for self-organization. It begins with the weakening of the institutions and brokers—political parties, career politicians, and congressional leaders and committees—that have historically held politicians accountable to one another and prevented everyone in the system from pursuing naked self-interest all the time. As these intermediaries’ influence fades, politicians, activists, and voters all become more individualistic and unaccountable. The system atomizes. Chaos becomes the new normal—both in campaigns and in the government itself.

TL;DR, (and it is a very long read) by reforming politics, by weakening the party system we have accidentally weakened the need to work together and left the door open to individuals and interest groups to hold our political system hostage to their own ends.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:57 AM on August 12, 2016 [20 favorites]

There can be no leftwing version of Trump because there is no leftwing equivalent to the Republican base. Trump is merely the symptom, the disease is the racist, fascist, know-nothing hatemongers that have been cultivated and encouraged by the Right for decades.

This. To get a leftwing Trump, we'd have to start with 25 years of hate-filled propaganda demonizing anything to the right of Eugene Debs.
posted by PlusDistance at 5:05 AM on August 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

Trump doesn't just need to lose, he needs to lose BIGLY.

Absolutely! And Clinton's already firmly on the case. We've already seen her making some moves in Texas, in Georgia, and a at least very neat and subtle one by Tim Kaine in Missouri (tweeting about restarting the "Border War" basketball rivalry between his old Mizzou and Kansas). She's after a landslide where the GOP loses at least eight and possibly ten seats in the Senate, Texas, and half the Bible Belt. Pushing the basically back into Appalachia and the Midwest.
posted by Francis at 5:05 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

IN CONCLUSION: IT'S TIME TO END DEMOCRACY
posted by indubitable at 5:10 AM on August 12, 2016

TL;DR, (and it is a very long read) by reforming politics, by weakening the party system we have accidentally weakened the need to work together and left the door open to individuals and interest groups to hold our political system hostage to their own ends.

So, the ideal amount of systemic corruption is somewhat greater than zero? I feel like that's maybe a design flaw.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:12 AM on August 12, 2016

Can we vote on that?
posted by wabbittwax at 5:12 AM on August 12, 2016

I want someone who spent time as a defense attorney.Rumpole for the Supreme Court 2017!

Agreed.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:13 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

When Clinton is elected, anyone want to start a countdown clock until someone argues that anything she does as president is invalid because the Constitution explicitly refers to a man?

Oh good lord the sovereign citizen people will be so happy. Gold fringe and pronouns will take back our country from the forces of evil!
posted by winna at 5:14 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

A friend and mentor of mine once said to me that you should always take a moment to identify at least one thing you like about every person you encounter, even (and perhaps especially) people you can't stand. This is a thing I've been trying to do lately. So I'm just going to say it here and now:

"Bigly" is a fuckin' great word, y'all.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:16 AM on August 12, 2016 [22 favorites]

it's ok everyone, Obama didn't actually found ISIS, it was just sarcasm.

Maybe I can dust off this old Sarcastobot 1000 detector unit and donate it to the Trump campaign to help them gauge the apparent sarcasm level of future messages.

Yeah, that would definitely fix all of their PR woes.

Oh no it's on fire, brb
posted by strange chain at 5:17 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

As an aside:

"A handful of moderate House Republicans in tight reelection contests have done something that most Republicans would consider unthinkable — renounce the GOP catechism on repealing Obamacare as they fight for their political lives. They say they oppose the health law but are reluctant to tear it up completely."

"But in the harsh politics of Obamacare, even the slightest move against repeal, or symbolic repeal votes that were doomed to go nowhere, is noteworthy. It's also living proof of Democrats' claims — and GOP worries — that it may be impossible to repeal the ACA now that millions of people have gotten benefits for a few years. That's a potential bad omen for Trump if he wins control of the White House amid a promise of repeal."

God damn right. Suck it, haters.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:23 AM on August 12, 2016 [23 favorites]

A friend and mentor of mine once said to me that you should always take a moment to identify at least one thing you like about every person you encounter, even (and perhaps especially) people you can't stand. This is a thing I've been trying to do lately.

Not joking, me too. So: Metallic Sharpies are cool.
posted by box at 5:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

it's ok everyone, Obama didn't actually found ISIS, it was just sarcasm.

This is great. Trump needs to start doing this with everything he's said:

"Border wall? You guys actually believed that? How the hell is that even do-able?"

"Keep all the Muslims out? Really? One-third the world's population? And you thought I was serious?"

"Deport all the illegal aliens? That didn't sound, I don't know, crazy to any of you?"

"Law and order candidate? Me? You guys...seriously...I don't think I can make jokes around you anymore."
posted by PlusDistance at 5:26 AM on August 12, 2016 [45 favorites]

Leotrotsky - I don't think that having established institutional norms that are maintained because Well That's Just How It's Done necessary means corruption. That's the meaning I took from that paragraph.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:27 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Chemical free water for all! Paid for with a tax on all companies that produce chemicals.

But without chemicals, life itself would be boring . . . and impossible.
 
posted by Herodios at 5:28 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Leotrotsky - I don't think that having established institutional norms that are maintained because Well That's Just How It's Done necessary means corruption. That's the meaning I took from that paragraph.

I don't know, the breakdown of the Republican Whips ability to smack their folks in line was pretty closely tied to the ban on earmarks.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:32 AM on August 12, 2016

I want someone who spent time as a defense attorney.Rumpole for the Supreme Court 2017!

Agreed.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 8:13 AM on August 12 [1 favorite +] [!]

OK, but does that make Hillary "She"?
 
posted by Herodios at 5:37 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

This. To get a leftwing Trump, we'd have to start with 25 years of hate-filled propaganda demonizing anything to the right of Eugene Debs.

I see you've met my husband.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:43 AM on August 12, 2016 [41 favorites]

The President is also the Commander in Chief. She can surround the Senate with troops and refuse to let them leave without giving their "advice and consent" regarding her nominees.

This is a blatant violation of law and the troops would be duty bound to disobey such an order.

So the president can unilaterally launch nukes but can't order a little troop camp-out on the Mall?
posted by achrise at 5:46 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I continue to believe Kim Davis is wrong to oppose marriage equality, but it's still fucked up that I was stoked to see a political opponent go to jail.

She was given ample opportunity to comply and was given multiple different ways around her bigoted beliefs. She wanted to have her cake and eat it too by ignoring a federal court order. It wasn't a political opponent going to jail. She was a petty tyrannical official using her power to oppress those who she felt were lesser. She 100% deserved to go to jail for contempt.
posted by Talez at 5:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [57 favorites]

Just because someone is a politician doesn't make them immune from the consequences of breaking the law. The difference between Kim Davis and "Lock Her Up!" is that Kim Davis actually broke an actual law and had due process whereas Hillary Clinton is only guilty in the feeeeeelings of a group of people who are being told by other politicians that she doesn't deserve due process.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

So the president can unilaterally launch nukes but can't order a little troop camp-out on the Mall?

But what would be their mission? Shoot any member of congress attempting to leave the capitol building?
posted by wabbittwax at 6:07 AM on August 12, 2016

Sweet Jesus, no. I can think of few things more likely to precipitate a horrible situation in America than surrounding the Senate with troops.

In fact, I think that's the "liberals would love, conservatives would be deeply terrified of" answer - a president who's okay sending federal troops into areas to solve problems like that with military force.

Umm, Corb, I really appreciate your efforts on the GOP side and your participation in these threads but....WHAT?

Paranoid 2nd Am. FEMA camp fantasies aside, it's the right that has shown an appetite for the use of force in suppressing dissent.

Arguments to Ruby Ridge, Waco and the Bundy standoff etc are deeply unpersuasive to me on this front.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:09 AM on August 12, 2016 [15 favorites]

Can we maybe not turn this thread into some sort of speculative "how could Hillary use the military to enforce her will" fanfic session? A big discussion premised on "the Republicans in congress are intransigent, maybe Hillary can use the military against the population!" is super gross.
posted by tocts at 6:10 AM on August 12, 2016 [20 favorites]

There's no military solution for congressional intransigence that doesn't equate to fascism. You can't deploy military unless you allow for the possibility that they might kill some people. We don't want anyone in office who would do that.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:15 AM on August 12, 2016 [20 favorites]

She 100% deserved to go to jail for contempt.

I totally agree with this. But I think there's an important distinction to be made between recognizing that and celebrating when it happens. I'm not sneering at the latter because I've done plenty of that in my life, but it's not the best part of me.

I once got held up by an armed robber. Stuck a low-caliber blue steel semi-auto pistol right in my face and demanded the cash. He went to prison for that. My initial reaction was to be happy, but then it occurred to me that the whole situation was sad as hell, and while he certainly deserves to be in prison for his crime? There's nothing about that situation worth smiling about. Not the crime, not the conviction, and certainly not the inside of the hellhole that is the US prison system.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:15 AM on August 12, 2016 [18 favorites]

TPM - Trump: 'I don't know that we need to get out the vote'.

I predict he'll say the exact opposite in 48 hours.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:18 AM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

it's ok everyone, Obama didn't actually found ISIS, it was just sarcasm.

What, this is really the line he's going to take now? Amazing. I could see the Russia request as really really misplaced sarcasm. But he doubled and tripled down on the ISIS remark. My failure to anticipate Trump is a failure of imagination, because I could never have imagined someone so inept getting so far. I think his chances of actually dropping out of the race go up every day. What a disaster.

Also he tweeted that out at 3:36am, confirming the idea that "hillary is dangerous because she goes to bed" is linked to her inadequate levels of late night tweeting harming our national security. But he was probably being sarcastic.

Go to bed Donald, and delete ur account.
posted by dis_integration at 6:19 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

EatTheWeak: "Could be. But I've watched Empire Strikes Back a bunch of times, so that's not an assumption I'm comfortable making."

Mmmm, more Lord of the Rings, I think?

‘You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?’

‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. ‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength.’

and of course Galadriel later:

`And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair! '

posted by Chrysostom at 6:21 AM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump now claiming the ISIS remark as sarcasm but man, just imagine how tiring and stressful four years of that would be:

"No you guys, I'm not REALLY starting a war with Venezuela tomorrow. Can't you people take a joke? But for real though, next week we're totally going to war."
posted by p3t3 at 6:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

> So the president can unilaterally launch nukes but can't order a little troop camp-out on the Mall?

The Posse Comitatus Act prevents the president from using the US military inside the US.
posted by fragmede at 6:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

"No you guys, I'm not REALLY starting a war with Venezuela tomorrow. Can't you people take a joke? But for real though, next week we're totally going to war."

Well, I guess yesterday was the 32nd anniversary of this little moment in history.
posted by dis_integration at 6:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

PlusDistance, can I share that with attribution? It makes me very happy.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:27 AM on August 12, 2016

In fact, I think that's the "liberals would love, conservatives would be deeply terrified of" answer - a president who's okay sending federal troops into areas to solve problems like that with military force.

Corb, no. No, no, no. The side of the aisle that is okay with using brute force other than as a last resort is the Conservative side. The side that is happy with the cops being a de facto paramilitary force. In 2015 the American police were killing Americans at about half the rate the British security services (mostly the Army) killed people in the 30 years of terrorism that were The Troubles in Northern Ireland.

There are times, when faced with violent oppression that getting a bigger hammer is a regrettably necessary tool. But if you're thinking of the 101st Airborne in Little Rock, remember that the Governor had deployed the Arkansas National Guard to attempt to uphold segregation. Deploying the 101st Airborne was a response to Conservatives using the military first.
posted by Francis at 6:28 AM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

I was questioning more the idea of "in what situations can/should the armed forces refuse to follow the orders of their Commander in Chief?". It was stated in one of these threads that the President has sole authority over the use of nuclear weapons, needs no one's approval, and the military is expected to execute those orders without question. Then it was said that the military would be duty-bound to refuse other orders. I was illuminating that dichotomy. I support neither nuclear weapons nor using the military to further domestic political actions.

The Posse Comitatus Act prevents the president from using some branches of the US military inside the US.
posted by achrise at 6:28 AM on August 12, 2016

Sam Wang at PEC: What would it take for the House to flip?:

One of the best ways to answer this question is not yet fully available. That best way is to look at district-by-district ratings by prognosticators such as David Wasserman of the Cook Political Report or Kyle Kondik at Sabato’s Crystal Ball, and ask what the average seat gain will be. I have written about this kind of information in the past (for example, it was dead-on in 2008). Those sites both currently give maximum plausible Democratic outcomes (i.e. certain/probable Democratic plus toss-ups) as 209 seats, short of the necessary 218 seats. However, the ratings take some time to be updated in response to events in the districts; after all, there are 435 of them, and it takes time for Wasserman/Kondik/their collaborators to collect and interpret incoming information. As accurate as this approach is, it gives a slow-moving picture that will surely change in the coming three months.

In the meantime, it is possible to get some feeling for what would have to happen at a national level. I will start off with an approximate question: what would the total popular vote for Congress need to be for Democrats to end up in control of 218 seats? And where is national sentiment relative to that threshold?

posted by palindromic at 6:29 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

> You can't deploy military unless you allow for the possibility that they might kill some people.

If they were deployed without guns, it would probably be harder for that to happen.
posted by fragmede at 6:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm not linking to any of the sources but I thought this was too good to let by. On Monday The Daily Caller published a piece entitled "The Case for a Negotiated Republican Surrender to Hillary." On Wednesday the piece was roundly mocked by Rush Limbaugh. So what is the negotiation proposed? That the Right "surrender" to Clinton in exchange for the Republicans being allowed to choose Scalia's replacement.

I leave it there, like a dead rat on your kitchen floor.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:33 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump now claiming the ISIS remark as sarcasm but man, just imagine how tiring and stressful four years of that would be:

Is Trump gas-lighting America?
posted by drezdn at 6:33 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm gonna join those begging that we stop with this military surrounding the senate derail. I despair that anyone thinks a majority of either party would be ok with that.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:34 AM on August 12, 2016 [35 favorites]

So what is the negotiation proposed? That the Right "surrender" to Clinton in exchange for the Republicans being allowed to choose Scalia's replacement.

I don't think Clinton would take that deal somehow. She gets on with most Republicans face to face but despises the party. And she's winning.
posted by Francis at 6:36 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I totally agree with this. But I think there's an important distinction to be made between recognizing that and celebrating when it happens. I'm not sneering at the latter because I've done plenty of that in my life, but it's not the best part of me.

I threw a parade in my living room with my two cats when she went to jail. The hateful bigotry backed up by chest puffing "I AM DANIEL, THROW ME INTO THE PIT OF LIONS" empty martyrdom as a response to corruption and oppression was deemed utterly unacceptable in the American judicial system. When the rubber hits the road these people have no conviction. They just want to hate people who are different than them. They'll say they'll go to hell if they're even the slightest bit a part of gay marriage but once they actually get to the hell that is an actual jail they're suddenly more amenable to compromise of their religious beliefs.

Fuck people like her and I'll celebrate their imprisonment for attempts of continued illegal oppression of marginal groups for nothing other than their personal prejudice.
posted by Talez at 6:38 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Is Trump gas-lighting America?

Is this even a question?

I'm pretty sure that one of the (many) reasons Trump does not do well with women is because we grow up being gaslighted and a pretty large percentage of us know that shit when we see it. "I was just joking, geez!" is the mating call of abusers everywhere.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:39 AM on August 12, 2016 [61 favorites]

Past as prelude...

Fred Trump Taught His Son the Essentials of Showboating Self-Promotion:

The throngs of New Yorkers who poured into Coney Island on a sweltering Sunday in July 1939 — shuffling past the rides, hot-dog stands and freak shows — confronted one last spectacle blaring just beyond the surf.

At 65 feet and outfitted with enormous Trump signs, the yacht called the Trump Show Boat was hard to miss. And that was the point.

Its loudspeakers blasted recordings of “The Star-Spangled Banner” and “God Bless America” over and over, compelling many sunbathers, reluctant to be seen as unpatriotic, to stand and salute each time. When the boat floated swordfish-shaped balloons — redeemable for $25 or $250 toward a new Trump Home — toward the shore, bathers nearly rioted as they raced to snatch them up.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:39 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Egg McMuffin in the Weekly Standard: "One major motivator for my entering the race is simply that I feel like we're doing a terrible job fighting terrorism now, and I feel like both Hillary Clinton and Donald Turnip are woefully unprepared to confront that challenge"

No worries guys, he's woefully prepared.
posted by aspersioncast at 6:40 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's pretty funny that the brightest conservative future the Daily Caller can imagine is one where Empress Hillary is gracious enough to her vanquished foes to grant them a boon.
posted by EarBucket at 6:41 AM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

I hope CNN puts Katy Tur on the Cannes Film Festival assignment after this. Or makes her their Hawaii correspondent or something nice.
posted by marxchivist

She's on MSNBC/NBC, not CNN. And in my dream they give her Joe Scarborough's or Chris Matthews' shows or make her the anchor of the nightly news. She's shown more guts and gumption (and wit) this campaign season than most of their stars have shown in their entire careers.
posted by spitbull at 6:47 AM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

Walt Hickey at 538: The 22 Most Hillary-Clinton-Fan-Filled Movies:

It’s not even a fair competition. With all due respect to the “Friends of Abe,” Hollywood is dominated by the left. Just look at the recent party conventions: The Democratic National Convention had actors and actresses on stage every single night — Elizabeth Banks hosted for an entire evening. Producers, musicians and performers collaborated on videos and short films aired during the event. And a whole bunch of people in the entertainment industry signed a petition to stop Donald Trump.

The Republican National Convention had Scott Baio and one of the duck guys.

The causes of this disparity, its exceptions — a Governator comes to mind — and future aren’t a big concern to me at this moment. Here’s what is: Given the vast numbers of performers and filmmakers out there who have declared their support for Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, can we find the most pro-Clinton film — based on who made the movies, not what’s in them — of all time?

posted by palindromic at 6:49 AM on August 12, 2016

From The Guardian: Secret Trump voters reverse their support: 'He seems to be insane'

In the middle of primary season in February, the Guardian called for secret Trump voters to contact us and tell us why they were voting for Trump on the sly. More than 100 reached out – from yoga teachers to immigration lawyers – and we published 12 of those answers. Now that the general election season has well and truly begun, we checked back in with the original anonymous 12 to see if they are still on board the Trump train. We got 10 responses – and four of them have already jumped off.

posted by zakur at 6:53 AM on August 12, 2016 [24 favorites]

I just want to circle back to the "world would be a better place without Republicans" idea for a moment with something interesting that popped up on the Post yesterday.

Next month will be the first anniversary of Albuquerque’s There’s a Better Way program, which hires panhandlers for day jobs beautifying the city. In partnership with a local nonprofit that serves the homeless population, a van is dispatched around the city to pick up panhandlers who are interested in working. The job pays $9 an hour, which is above minimum wage, and provides a lunch. At the end of the shift, the participants are offered overnight shelter as needed.

This is the idealism that I assume Republicans preach when they say "work not welfare" and it's something I can get behind. But too many Republicans too far right have wanted to immediately strip the welfare and then you're on your own on finding the work. They may get to it if there's time after then infinitieth Obamacare repeal vote.

I can get behind ideas like this program Mayor Berry has instituted. But my liberal side wants to make sure that anyone who can't work or doesn't have work available to them is looked after and that anyone who works full time need not live in poverty and I'd like to think reasonable Republicans can get behind that idea as well.

There are things we can all learn from each other. There are an infinite number of ways to improve and solve these complicated problems in actually achievable ways.
posted by Talez at 6:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [23 favorites]

So what is the negotiation proposed? That the Right "surrender" to Clinton in exchange for the Republicans being allowed to choose Scalia's replacement.

So their idea of surrender is to demand the most important thing that this election is deciding?
posted by octothorpe at 6:55 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

From that Grauniad article:

“Truly, I believe America is getting the candidates it deserves. We will not get out of this mess until people wake up and realize they have more than two choices,” said the yoga instructor, noting he’d be voting for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein.

WAKE UP SHEEPLE. Omg it's almost too perfect. He's a yoga teacher. I am cackling.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:59 AM on August 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

So their idea of surrender is to demand the most important thing that this election is deciding?

They've been reading AskMe dating questions: "Just ask them, that's the only way to know for sure if they like you!"
posted by OmieWise at 6:59 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't think negotiations with Republucans is possible, since negotiations require trust.
posted by Artw at 7:00 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

vote through the back body
posted by thelonius at 7:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

noting he’d be voting for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein.

Just...you know, one or the other. Because you literally have no idea or opinion on any of the issues whatsoever, I guess.
posted by infinitywaltz at 7:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [42 favorites]

I find it frankly sickening that you would post this without telling us whether you also dressed up the cats in fancy costumes and linking to pictures of the sweeties

I did not dress them up but as a peace offering, here's a picture of a cat reclining with sunglasses and a hat.
posted by Talez at 7:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

Benjy Sarlin - "Time is short. The q is not "does x hurt Trump," but "does x bring any additional voters to his side." Scratch another 24 hours off."
posted by chris24 at 7:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also of note, there are two more people in that article who are still Trump supports because, as far as I can tell, they do actually want to burn it all down, not because they support his positions in any way. It's... confusing to me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Another one of the guys from the Guardian article: A 20-year-old Arab student from Missouri says he backs Trump because he’s flipped US politics. “If he doesn’t win, his ego and legacy will still dominate American politics. He has basically set the tone for the coming century in which an isolated authoritarian state could be a very real prospect for our country,” he said.

I . . . So you . . .

The only way this makes sense is that he's afraid of casting a vote against Trump because he doesn't trust the secrecy of the ballot process in a future Trump America. That is intensely sad, and yet, in another country, it would be perfectly natural.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:03 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Just...you know, one or the other. Because you literally have no idea or opinion on any of the issues whatsoever, I guess.

They both want to legalize pot, I think, so that's like 75% of the reddit vote.
posted by dis_integration at 7:04 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

The only way this makes sense is that he's afraid of casting a vote against Trump because he doesn't trust the secrecy of the ballot process in a future Trump America. That is intensely sad, and yet, in another country, it would be perfectly natural.

Or maybe he wants America to be an isolated authoritarian state? Please someone find this guy, I have a lot of questions.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:05 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

The only way this makes sense is that he's afraid of casting a vote against Trump because he doesn't trust the secrecy of the ballot process in a future Trump America.

Or maybe he thinks that not voting for authoritarianism is beta.
posted by thelonius at 7:06 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

The stumbled onto a Dark Enlightement idiot?
posted by Artw at 7:07 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

so that's like 75% of the reddit vote.

15 year-olds can't vote.
posted by Groundhog Week at 7:09 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

Dear Secretary Clinton:

We write as members of the Ad Hoc National Coalition to End the AIDS Epidemic, comprised of over 70 AIDS advocates and service providers from around the country, to express our gratitude to you for honoring your commitment to the fight against HIV/AIDS.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:09 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

Mr President, upvote this wall!
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Because this is a perfectly normal thing for a 70 year old man to say. #daddyissues

"Trump, 70, said of how his late dad wud view his campaign: “He would have absolutely allowed me to have done it.”"
posted by chris24 at 7:11 AM on August 12, 2016 [20 favorites]

I don't think negotiations with Republucans is possible, since negotiations require trust.

That was Limbaugh's biggest problem with the idea-- that they would not be able to force Clinton to keep her word.

I just loved the idea of these important Republicans "surrendering." What does that involve? Is there any cosplay? Are swords required? And what does Clinton get out of the deal? It doesn't mean Trump is going to withdraw.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:11 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump: I don't know that we need to get out the vote.

I bet he does know that he does need to do this, and that he can neither do it nor say it.
posted by Devonian at 7:12 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Check all the flags in the room for tassels.
posted by Artw at 7:13 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

So a new poll has come in for Texas, and it's pushed the state farther toward Trump in 538's model. So sad. 538 only rates the pollster as a C+, so I hold out hope that this is an outlier and future polls will push it closer to Clinton's grasp. They're still giving her about a 20% chance of taking the state which ain't nothing, but it's now only the fifth-least-safe Republican-leaning state in the polls-only forecast.

I would really like it if she could take Texas. It would make me so happy. They're showing Mississippi of all places as nearly a tossup (the polls there are stale though) which I would certainly accept as a consolation prize, but Texas is the real treasure in a hypothetical Clinton landslide. For sentimental reasons I would also be overjoyed to see Louisiana go to her, but sadly that looks like too much to hope for. Louisiana looks like solid Trump territory, which having lived there surprises me not at all. Poor New Orleans, forever destined to be an island of in a sea of frothing insanity.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:15 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think negotiations with Republucans is possible, since negotiations require trust.
posted by Artw

they do actually want to burn it all down, not because they support his positions in any way. It's... confusing to me.
posted by soren_lorensen

On the death of trust, burning it all down, and much else beside.

posted by Mister Bijou at 7:19 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Poor New Orleans, forever destined to be an island of in a sea of frothing insanity."

As a New Orleanian I have wondered many times - not just during this election season - what I could do to help turn this state a little less red. The longer I live here, in the kind of state that would elect Bobby Jindal and support David Duke, the more I lose hope that that's even possible. But hey, we went D in 1996 so anything's possible.

... just probably not this year.
posted by komara at 7:20 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Trump, 70, said of how his late dad wud view his campaign: “He would have absolutely allowed me to have done it.”"

I guess the garbage person doesn't fall far from the dump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:20 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

The President is also the Commander in Chief. She can surround the Senate with troops and refuse to let them leave without giving their "advice and consent" regarding her nominees.

The Red Rope

During the late 5th century B.C. Athens employed Scythian slaves to round up citizens to attend the public assembly. They carried between them a rope dipped in red paint. If a person tried to resist going to the assembly they were sure to get caught in the rope and have red paint on their clothes. Anyone who had red paint on their clothes at the assembly would not get paid for their attendance.
-- The British Museum

When the Assembly was to meet on the Pnyx, “hurdles” were set up . . . in the marketplace . . . perhaps to channel citizens toward the Pnyx. In 5th century comedy we also find jokes about people in the marketplace fleeing a “red rope” . . . a rope dipped in wet red paint, which seems to have been used to herd people out of the marketplace and to the Assembly. [Later] when payment for attendance was sufficient motivation, this red rope seems to have been used to keep people out of a meeting that was already full.
-- Demos, Christopher W. Blackwell

Still it is the day of assembly; all should be here at daybreak, and yet the Pnyx is still deserted. They are gossiping in the marketplace, slipping hither and thither to avoid the vermilioned rope.
-- Aristophanes, Acharnians

Several means were used to force citizens to attend the assemblies; the shops were closed; circulation was only permitted in those streets which led to the Pnyx; finally, a rope covered with vermilion was drawn round those who dallied in the Agora; late-comers, marked by the imprint of the Red Rope, were fined.
-- Perseus, Tufts University

Attendance at the assembly was not always voluntary. In the 5th century public slaves forming a cordon with a red-stained rope herded citizens from the Agora into the assembly meeting place (Pnyx), with a fine being imposed on those who got the red on their clothes. After the restoration of the democracy in 403 BC, pay for assembly attendance was introduced. This promoted a new enthusiasm for assembly meetings. Only the first 6000 to arrive were admitted and paid, with the red rope now used to keep latecomers at bay.
-- Wiccuhpeedia

posted by Herodios at 7:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

On the death of trust, burning it all down, and much else beside.

If you only read one article this week, it should be The Atlantic: How American Politics Went Insane This will be the one that everyone interested in politics will be discussing this week.

previously on metafilter
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I know the Washington Post has been trying to dig up information on Donald's charitable contributions and now CBS has been doing some digging.

Later that year, also in the New York Times, he added Vietnam veterans as another cause and told a reporter, "I originally figured [the charities would] get a couple of hundred thousand, but because of the success of The Art of the Deal they'll get $4 or $5 million."

But "The Art of the Deal" did not yield that much money for Trump.

Tony Schwartz, who was the ghostwriter for "The Art of the Deal," split the royalties with Trump 50/50 and tells CBS News he made $1.6 million in total.

"Trump, 70, said of how his late dad wud view his campaign: “He would have absolutely allowed me to have done it.”"

I view this as the curse of the Millionaire Heir-- whoever holds the money gets to make the decisions. No doubt while Fred was alive, Donald felt he had to abide by what his father would allow him to do. I'm sure that's how Donald rolls as far as his own sons are concerned. There was talk of Donald, Jr. running for mayor of NY but Donald, Sr. quashed that right down.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:29 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

In 5th century comedy we also find jokes about people in the marketplace fleeing a “red rope” . . . a rope dipped in wet red paint

"You've got red on you."
-- fragment from the lost 5th-century BCE Greek comedy, "Yiannis of the Underworld"
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

The President is also the Commander in Chief. She can surround the Senate with troops and refuse to let them leave without giving their "advice and consent" regarding her nominees.

It's already been said, but the Executive using the military against the Legislature to try to compel them into obedience would be blatantly illegal and strike at the very heart of the constitution. The President would immediately become a military dictator. The best case scenario would be that she would be swiftly impeached and run out of office without violence ensuing, and even then it would go down in history books as one of the darkest moments in the history of American Democracy. Worst case scenario: all-out civil war followed by brutal military dictatorship. Nukes optional.

Christ people, think a little before you say things.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

Seriously, read that article about how American politics went insane with an open mind. Truly an essential read.
posted by peacheater at 7:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy: I guess in Trumpland a few days is a long time ago.

When you don't sleep enough, time appears to pass at varying rates.


tivalasvegas: when I watch the olympic swimmers going down their lanes with the big orange line marked "WORLD RECORD" just out of reach and moving away I think about the 300-Day Political Thread Marathon and the happy yet deflated feeling I get when I finally catch up

That would be fun to have a "END OF THREAD" orange banner in MegaThreads, as it would keep slipping away from you with the constant flow of new comments.


dis_integration: There isn't a lot of reason to believe that all Johnson voters would be Republican if it weren't for Trump. People don't have coherent mental ideologies.

And Libertarians don't just court conservatives. Samantha Bee, after hearing (Google) Gary Johnson talk about his Libertarian ideals: "I support basically every other thing you say."


like_neon: It's the equivelent of "Sike!" Hahaahhaaa stupid media, can't take a joke!

Pedantry: it should be "psych," not "sike."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:31 AM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

Here's some music for this thread: YG & Nipsey Hussle "FDT" [NSFW lyrics], from NPR's piece on Allison McCann's 538 article How We Charted Trump’s Fall From Grace In Hip-Hop.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:35 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Guys! Guys! Hillary has a podcast now!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:36 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

Trump via Twitter: "I love watching these poor, pathetic people (pundits) on television working so hard and so seriously to try and figure me out. They can't!"

Uh, maybe being able to clearly understand a political candidate's character, motivations, and positions is a good thing?
posted by mochapickle at 7:37 AM on August 12, 2016 [35 favorites]

YG - FDT lyrics clip: "It wouldn't be the USA without Mexicans, and if it's time to team up, shit let's begin. Black love, brown pride in the sets again, white people feel the same as my next of kin"
posted by filthy light thief at 7:39 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump: I'm one wiiiiild and craaaazy guy! Vote for me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:40 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm way more interested in a Hillary podcast than Donnie's vlogging, but he sets that particular bar pretty low.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 AM on August 12, 2016

Here's some music for this thread: YG & Nipsey Hussle "FDT" [NSFW lyrics], from NPR's piece on Allison McCann's 538 article How We Charted Trump’s Fall From Grace In Hip-Hop.

I'm definitely playing this on repeat Nov 8. Driving by the polling places blasting it from my civic's factory speakers.
posted by dis_integration at 7:41 AM on August 12, 2016

That latest Trump tweet is like literally word for word what bad internet trolls say
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:42 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

IT'S ALL A SOSHUL EXPERIMENT LOLZ!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:43 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I would really like it if she could take Texas. It would make me so happy. They're showing Mississippi of all places as nearly a tossup (the polls there are stale though) which I would certainly accept as a consolation prize, but Texas is the real treasure in a hypothetical Clinton landslide.

Don't give up yet. Even if Hillary Clinton takes Texas all the polls by competent pollsters before the exit poll are going to show it as being Republican. This is because Hillary needs to do what Donald has talked about doing but doesn't have a clue how to do, and get the non-voters out to vote for her (in this case the Hispanic vote).

There are very good reasons pollsters think this isn't going to happen (chiefly that voting is a habit) and no competent pollster is ever going to base polls on the basis that someone will actually succeed in getting non-voters to vote. But such campaigns properly run can be successful (for one you need to start with a voter registration drive - and then in America to hire all the busses you can get your hands on to have people running round and to drive people to the polls). It's challenging, it takes effort, determination, dedication, and attention to detail.

And Latinx turnout in 2012 was 48%. Black turnout was 67%, White 64%. White people favour Trump in that poll 51:32, Hispanic people favour Clinton 48:32. And Black people are 71:13 in favour of Clinton. Texas of course only has a plurality of white voters - Black + Hispanic outnumber White between them.

So. Drilling down into the polling, Clinton is losing Texas only because of demographic turnout - and she already knew this when she said she might win Texas (she specifically mentioned turnout). The poll looks bad - but she knows what she needs to do to win Texas and the poll has enough evidence to show that it is very winnable.
posted by Francis at 7:45 AM on August 12, 2016 [15 favorites]

> Pedantry: it should be "psych," not "sike."

Acceptable variation from my childhood, YMMV: "psyyyyyyeeeeeek"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:45 AM on August 12, 2016 [12 favorites]

I remember when I too was twelve and followed up on my dick remarks with "I was being sarCASTic, GOD, nobody underSTANDS"

I still got hauled off by the ear
posted by Countess Elena at 7:46 AM on August 12, 2016 [21 favorites]

Dan Aykroyd: I know wild and crazy, and you sir, are not wild and crazy. (And you probably aren't racist, but you say racist things.)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:47 AM on August 12, 2016

Even if Hillary Clinton takes Texas all the polls by competent pollsters before the exit poll are going to show it as being Republican. This is because Hillary needs to do what Donald has talked about doing but doesn't have a clue how to do, and get the non-voters out to vote for her (in this case the Hispanic vote).

The election-is-rigged folks are going to love that.
posted by dfan at 7:47 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump was given several opportunities to walk back his comments about Obama being a founder of Isis. He took none of those opportunities. In fact, he doubled-down, and tripled-down. Repeatedly.

For him to claim "sarcasm" now is just so shockingly indefensible.

Either you mean what you say, or you don't.

You don't get "backsies" Donnie.
posted by yesster at 7:48 AM on August 12, 2016 [20 favorites]

Clinton Camp Formally Launches Republicans for Hillary Effort:

Hillary Clinton's campaign [Wednesday] announced the formal creation of a group to recruit Republican and independent voters dissatisfied with the GOP nominee, Donald Trump.

The launch of the group, Together for America, comes after months of scattered efforts by the campaign and its allies to woo anti-Trump Republicans.

Clinton's web site also has a form for Republicans to say why they're voting for her.
The form looks the same on both sites so my guess is they go to the same place.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Hillary podcast is a complete piece of campaigning, of course, and it doesn't replace press conferences (or the really, really good interview with Heben and Tracy at Another Round), but it's nice to hear her speaking in a relaxed, conversational environment.

(Those of you donating may want to request that some of it goes towards some lemons and honey.)
posted by maudlin at 7:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump equivalents: Michael Moore, certainly. Possibly Louis CK? I don't know enough about Sarah Silverman's views, but she is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
posted by AFABulous at 7:53 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

The election-is-rigged folks are going to love that.

Fuck 'em.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 7:55 AM on August 12, 2016

Those of you donating may want to request that some of it goes towards some lemons and honey.

No doubt. By election day 1992, Bill Clinton's voice was fried.

That is, about 95% 'fry'.
 
posted by Herodios at 7:56 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Zapp Brannigan + Trump quotes.

This is the best thing ever.
posted by drezdn at 7:57 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Then I lost all hope. I don't even know how it came up because it shocked me so much that I only remember him saying "We're going to have a race war." And then "they don't want to work".

If you want to know how an apparently otherwise decent human being could say stuff like this, I think this is the best explanation: "I've heard the theory that upper-middle-class people have a mental model of chronic poverty that's based on their own poorest family members--people who started out with many advantages and squandered them with poor life choices (maybe actually exacerbated by mental illness, possibly undiagnosed). And their personal experience of poverty may actually be their experience of being young, without much income but with well-off parents and a powerful implicit safety net."

Maybe the only poor people they know are poor people who really don't want to work. People who started with privilege (which is why they know them) and pissed it away, as opposed to starting with none...

As for the "race war" thing, I think it's pretty easy to understand that fear. A lot of white people see these protests and demonstrations and feel like black people are mad -- at them! -- and are confused about why. They have a hard time believing "Cops keep shooting us for no reason" is really the source of the anger because they personally have only had good experiences with cops and all the cops they know are decent guys..? So they don't believe the stated reasons, and attribute the anger to "hatred of white people." It makes more sense to them based on their experience.

Politics would go so much better in this country if we all just believed each other about our motivations and assumed good faith. So often we don't take our political adversaries at their word about what they are trying to do because we can't accept the premise they're reasoning from. But those premises are based on their own experiences, and if we believed them about what they're trying to do and tried to understand those experiences that make them think it makes sense, we might actually be able to talk to each other and solve some of our problems.

Anyway, I don't think your boss is a monster. He's human and he's wrong, in a depressingly common way. The bad news is, that's plenty bad enough. Most atrocities don't require monsters, just humans with some wrong ideas. The good news is that it is possible, though very difficult, to correct the wrong understandings people have, with patience and good will over time. Don't quit your job. Just keep talking to your boss when you get the opportunity to do it in a non-hostile way, and maybe tell him some stories that might make him question some of his false premises about poverty and race.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:03 AM on August 12, 2016 [87 favorites]

I'm seeing that Gary Johnson is currently predicted to take 8.2% of the popular vote (again, according to 538's polls-only forecast). My intuition is that this number is likely to go down as the campaign heats up in the Fall and the two main candidates come to dominate the popular consciousness even more than they already are doing, and furthermore that a lot of people are telling pollsters that they're going to cast a protest vote but that in the privacy of the voting booth on November 8th some of those people will hold their noses and vote for one major-party candidate or the other.

Does anyone here know whether history bears out those intuitions? If so, does 538's polls-only model adjust for that effect in a way that makes sense? What about the polls-plus model? Inquiring minds want to know.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:05 AM on August 12, 2016

It's my understanding that history does back up the "less people actually end up voting third party in the end."
posted by drezdn at 8:07 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

In other beanplating-the-polls-only-forecast news, New Hampshire is now (just barely) in Clinton's "firewall" of states that are over 80% likely to go her way in November. That gets her over the 270 mark required for her to take the electoral college using only states that are solidly in her camp. (Until this, she was one vote shy.) If you like the polls-only forecast, this is something of a milestone for her campaign in that now she will win even if she only takes states that right now look safe for her, while losing every single tossup contest.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:12 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Does anyone here know whether history bears out those intuitions? If so, does 538's polls-only model adjust for that effect in a way that makes sense? What about the polls-plus model? Inquiring minds want to know.
Yes, third party support has historically collapsed as we near the election date. However, this is an unusual election, so all bets are off.

I believe the 538 models do account for that (I believe they posit that third party voters are really closer to undecideds).
posted by peacheater at 8:12 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Does anyone here know whether history bears out those intuitions? If so, does 538's polls-only model adjust for that effect in a way that makes sense? What about the polls-plus model? Inquiring minds want to know.

Pretty much every mention of Johnson or Stein on the 538 podcasts is followed immediately by "Of course, third parties always have better polling numbers than votes." Their polls-plus number for Johnson is 3.4 percentage points lower than the NowCast and 1.7 points lower than the polls-only.
posted by Etrigan at 8:14 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump equivalents: Michael Moore, certainly. Possibly Louis CK? I don't know enough about Sarah Silverman's views, but she is like nails on a chalkboard to me.

Really? I strongly disagree. We need to find someone of marginal talent who holds the most extreme and reprehensible views of the left that alienates half of the Democratic party. Louis CK and Silverman aren't extreme, and Michael Moore is generally extreme but on issues most on the left agree about (climate change, islamophobia, economic devastation, etc).
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 8:14 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

The "Wild and crazy guy" mention has just reminded me of something Steve Martin once famously said in response to a heckler: he apparently put on this wistful expression and said, "...Yeah, I remember my first beer too...."

....Has anyone tried that with Trump yet?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:18 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

What's Silverman's position on declawing cats?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:20 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

She thinks it should only be done while wearing a bicycle helmet
posted by mmoncur at 8:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Katy Tur Details Her Time On The Trail With Donald Trump | Morning Joe | MSNBC
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:27 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Republicans tried to sink Obama. Instead, the party imploded

Before he finished his second year in office, Obama was such an object of Republican loathing that the Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell could say – with impunity – that “the single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.”

If your political priorities are the total defeat of a single politician – not the advancement of your own policies through debate or legislation – then you are already in pretty desperate shape. You render it impossible to compromise with your opponents, and you fan the flames of extremism that will burn anyone in the center.
posted by Artw at 8:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [29 favorites]

....Has anyone tried that with Trump yet?

Trump famously doesn't drink (his big brother Fred Jr. died from alcoholism-related diseases).
posted by infinitewindow at 8:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's just high on life, also probably prescription drugs.
posted by Artw at 8:31 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump famously doesn't drink (his big brother Fred Jr. died from alcoholism-related diseases).

Well, hell, Hillary doesn't order secret CIA hits but that hasn't stopped people from believing she does. Even just the implication or suggestion can be enough.

...I was joking when I said that above, but now you've got me thinking.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:33 AM on August 12, 2016

NBC-Marist:

FL Clinton +5
NC Clinton +9
VA Clinton +13
CO Clinton +14

posted by dfan at 8:35 AM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

If Trump is out in public and people are paying attention to him then he's high as a kite on the endorphin rush of having his narcissistic needs met.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:37 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Those polls are amazing! I'm feeling all fired up now.
posted by peacheater at 8:37 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm seeing so many Twitter variants of the old WIlliam Goldman Hollywood conversation "You're lying to me! You're lying to me!" "I know, but hear me out..." - viz

"I know he's a liar, but I have to vote for him. He's promised judges"
posted by Devonian at 8:44 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

The downballot polls are pretty-good, too:

NC Sen
Ross 46%
Burr 44

NC Gov
Cooper 51%
McCrory 44%

FL Sen
Rubio 49%
Murphy 43

CO Sen
Bennet 53%
Glenn 38

posted by zombieflanders at 8:47 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

The only way I can understand that is that some people literally think that the lives of unborn babies and the rights of God-fearing small business owners rest on this man. I can at least feel pity for someone who believes that.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:47 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

do you have any other pets peeve

No, that actually would be "pet peeves." (One pluralizes the noun in a phrase, is the trick -- with "attorney general," the noun is "attorney," while "general" is an adjective - the kind of attorney.)

But if instead of pet peeve you were using the very similar French-derived phrase "bête noir" you would say "bêtes noir" if you were annoyed by more than one of them.
posted by aught at 8:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

NC Sen
Ross 46%
Burr 44%

I feel badly for anybody named Burr trying to run for office this year.

(On preview, threadname-ysterical.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

but pets peeve is funnier
posted by mochapickle at 8:52 AM on August 12, 2016 [42 favorites]

If Burr gets kicked out I will throw a tiny parade in my neighborhood. I'm not his constituent any more but when I was I got SOOOO many condescending replies to my complaints about his positions that I have a personal grudge against the man and his staff.
posted by winna at 8:53 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

Nov 7th: "Hillary Clinton is positioned to win all 538 electoral votes, in what could be an historic election victory."

Nov 9th: "Where did Hillary go wrong? Only winning 537 electoral votes in what must be one of the most disappointing electoral victories of all time. How will she govern without a clear mandate?"
posted by wabbittwax at 8:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [40 favorites]

> "... you would say 'bêtes noir' if you were annoyed by more than one of them."

Bêtes noires, actually. The plural in English is the same as the plural in French, in this case.
posted by kyrademon at 8:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

No, that actually would be "pet peeves." (One pluralizes the noun in a phrase, is the trick

'pet' is a noun. Checkmate, atheists!
posted by thelonius at 8:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [12 favorites]

> This is great. Trump needs to start doing this with everything he's said:

You forgot the best one:

"President? Of the United States? Are you kidding me?"
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 8:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Of course the polls will tighten. Right now, Trump is running the worst-possible race; literally any changes he makes will placate somebody. But there's nothing he can do that the Dems can't react well to, and without stopping their major pushes for down-ticket and 'not-in-play' races where - on the face of it - they're playing the game as if they were up against a competent candidate anyway. Because you can't play the game to Trump's rules unless you have a more Trumpy Trump, and there ain't no such animal.

Fortunately, it seems that particular game doesn't have a star prize on Pennsylvania Avenue.
posted by Devonian at 8:58 AM on August 12, 2016

Now to wonder about what crazy shit Trump is going to spew today so he can get these polls out of the news.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:59 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

What I would love to know is, how the hell are both Massachusetts (0.7% chance for Trump) and California (0.5% chance for Trump) not 100% Clinton at this point, in 538's forecasts? Am I to understand that roughly 0.5% is the lowest odds that 538 is willing to put on Clinton ... I dunno, drop-kicking a baby on live television, between now and November?
posted by tocts at 8:59 AM on August 12, 2016

Checkmate, atheists!

I think you mean "Checkmates, atheist!"
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:00 AM on August 12, 2016 [24 favorites]

In a race like this, polls don't tighten. They clench.
posted by uosuaq at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

Or is that checks mate?
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Checksmate, surely.
posted by hydrophonic at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Those NC numbers feel towards the outer bound of possibility (it's still RV not LV) and I'm really not going to pay attention to the numbers for a while, but they match perceptions of how things are breaking: it's a kick-the-bums-out mood, aided by Trump at the top of the ticket and by the recent victories in voting/gerrymandering suits. Burr has tried to keep his head down, but that's not going to work as the campaign progresses.

But as I said during the Dem convention, Bloomberg was speaking to the banking and insurance types in Charlotte and the Triangle.
posted by holgate at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

No, that actually would be "pet peeves."
thatsthejoke.gif
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [15 favorites]

Checksmate, surely.

Don't call me Shirley.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

'pet' is a noun. Checkmate, atheists!

It's not the noun in this phrase, Frowner typed pedantically, since the peeves are things one keeps as pets, like pet cats or pet causes.
posted by Frowner at 9:03 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

> "Am I to understand that roughly 0.5% is the lowest odds that 538 is willing to put on Clinton ... I dunno, drop-kicking a baby on live television, between now and November?"

Nope. Maryland and DC are both rated as having a less than 0.1% chance for Trump.
posted by kyrademon at 9:04 AM on August 12, 2016

Re: polls tightening - all of the usual caveats apply here regarding not letting down our vigilance against Trump, but I read an article, and I am pretty sure it is linked somewhere in this massive thread, that polls often tighten toward the Republican candidate, because "Likely Voter" screens tend to favor Republican candidates, in part because there is a bit of a link between college education and being a likely voter. In other words, people with college educations are more likely to vote than people without, according to this article. So, because Clinton is generally doing better with college educated voters than Trump, that is one theory as to why polls have not yet tightened and in some cases her lead is extending. I wish I could remember where that article is to link, but I'm on vacation and have been binging too much on reading about all this insanity!
posted by Slothrop at 9:04 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Or hobbieshorse.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:04 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

So I'm hearing various knowledgeable people caution that the race is going to tighten, and suggesting a comeback narrative...

By and large, those are the same people who were absolutely 100% convinced that he was going to pivot to the center during the general election, because that's what any person with even the most basic 101-level understanding of politics would obviously do.

But Trump is not a normal candidate. He does not understand what it takes to win an election and he has no interest in learning. People from his own party are publicly denouncing him in droves. Today the RNC are having a meeting with his campaign where they will threaten to pull funding. The media is openly speculating about whether Trump is mentally unhinged. He still doesn't even have campaign offices in most swing states.

Trump doesn't need to lose a single member of his base to lose spectacularly. He has to get new people on board the Trump Train. Millions of people. Millions more people than Clinton. How?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:05 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

Right now, Trump is running the worst-possible race

Oh grodd don't tempt the fates like that
posted by phearlez at 9:05 AM on August 12, 2016 [15 favorites]

The people who keep saying the race will tighten are assuming Trump will not continue on his trend of being logarithmically more of an asshole as we approach the election.

Sure. But one of the things about Trump is that he is who he is, and seems to have a really hard time not being that person. This week alone, he's already blown up a pivot and ditched a bunch of opportunities to create false little anti-Clinton narratives in favor of wackiness that he seems to think is a good idea.

Remember, too, my favorite political cliche, the "dead cat bounce." Polls will likely tighten, but that isn't necessarily meaningful.
posted by OmieWise at 9:06 AM on August 12, 2016

"worst possible race" is a sliding scale.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:07 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I continue to believe Kim Davis is wrong to oppose marriage equality, but it's still fucked up that I was stoked to see a political opponent go to jail.

I love to see people get what they deserve, both good and bad. When someone like Kim Davis goes to jail for committing a real crime, I mostly feel satisfied rather than happy or joyful as I do seeing someone get something good. But there is a part of me that is happy to sneer at her and rejoice in her downfall. I try to fight that feeling and remind myself that I feel nothing but sadness for dogs who contract rabies and have to be euthanized. While Kim Davis's situation isn't anywhere close to a rabid dog's, I still think it's on the same moral spectrum. Davis has a TON more agency than a dog, but I'm still sad that she turned out that way. I wish she would make different choices and decide to just get along with everyone.

As John Cena says, "Loving America means loving all Americans." And, as much as I wish she weren't, Kim Davis is an American.
posted by VTX at 9:07 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

What are Trump's Steves' pets peeves?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:09 AM on August 12, 2016 [21 favorites]

What are Trump's Steves' pets peeves?

At this point? Every word that comes out of Trump's mouth
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:09 AM on August 12, 2016

Nope. Maryland and DC are both rated as having a less than 0.1% chance for Trump.

Oh, I saw that, but that's basically my question. I don't see any possible way that MA and CA are less likely to go for Clinton than are DC or Maryland, and even 0.5% feels like an overstatement of an order of magnitude.
posted by tocts at 9:09 AM on August 12, 2016

What I would love to know is, how the hell are both Massachusetts (0.7% chance for Trump) and California (0.5% chance for Trump) not 100% Clinton at this point, in 538's forecasts?

I wouldn't read too much into it. Statistical models are imperfect, and frequently break down a bit (or a lot) at the edges. It's hard to accurately model the whole continuum of possibilities, so I imagine Silver et al just settled for a model where the more interesting competitions were modeled as accurately as possible, and didn't worry too much about whether the ones that were near-certainties were at 99.5% or 99.9993%.

Basically, that 0.5% is probably way smaller than the margin of error in the model under those circumstances. Just because it spits out a number with three significant digits doesn't mean they're always all meaningful. (For that matter, the fact that the model forecasts the election to a tenth of a percent to begin with probably has more to do with getting people hooked on their site by giving them lots of little changes to get excited about, rather than any kind of analytical rigor.)
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:10 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

What are Trump's Steves' pets peeves?

At this point? Every word that comes out of Trump's mouth

But especially the ones written by Meredith.
posted by zakur at 9:12 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

As John Cena says, "Loving America means loving all Americans."

I am irrationally delighted by the fact that, in the midst of the hatey shitstorm that is the 2016 election cycle, this sentence is a thing that is true.
posted by dersins at 9:12 AM on August 12, 2016 [33 favorites]

There's a good theory that shifts in polls result more often from the subjects' excitement about answering rather than actual changes in allegiance. So right after the DNC convention, Hillary's supporters were more enthusiastic about answering the phone, saying her name (or pressing the key) in response to the question.

There will be a (dead-cat) bounce as latent Trump supporters take umbrage at his pounding in the polls and in the press. But I suspect that there will be at least as many feel demoralized and will just say "screw it" when the call comes.

And some people do actually make up their minds, or change their minds. But I think that happens more slowly than polls shift.
posted by argybarg at 9:12 AM on August 12, 2016

What I would love to know is, how the hell are both Massachusetts (0.7% chance for Trump) and California (0.5% chance for Trump) not 100% Clinton at this point, in 538's forecasts?

The 0.7% is accounting for the possibility that MIT accidentally releases the robot army, thus dooming the city and leaving only the rest of the state as survivors of the robot uprising.
posted by ultranos at 9:13 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm not sure this place is quite healthy for a Brit. I caught myself talking about 'down-ticket races in red states being influenced by the Latino demographic being brought into play' to a friend, and just got incomprehension and pity back.

God Save The Queen!

.
posted by Devonian at 9:16 AM on August 12, 2016 [72 favorites]

Donald Trump Gives Away The Game On Outrageous Talk | Rachel Maddow | MSNBC
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:19 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Economic distress and anxiety across working-class white America have become a widely discussed explanation for the success of Donald Trump. It seems to make sense. Trump's most fervent supporters tend to be white men without college degrees. This same group has suffered economically in our increasingly globalized world, as machines have replaced workers in factories and labor has shifted overseas. Trump has promised to curtail trade and other perceived threats to American workers, including immigrants.

Yet a major new analysis from Gallup, based on 87,000 interviews the polling company conducted over the past year, suggests this narrative is not complete. According to this new analysis, those who view Trump favorably have not been disproportionately affected by foreign trade or immigration, compared to people with unfavorable views of the Republican presidential nominee. The results suggest that his supporters, on average, do not have lower incomes than other Americans, nor are they more likely to be unemployed.

posted by Pope Guilty at 9:19 AM on August 12, 2016 [20 favorites]

I'm not sure this place is quite healthy for a Brit. I caught myself talking about 'down-ticket races in red states being influenced by the Latino demographic being brought into play' to a friend, and just got incomprehension and pity back.

I love this and I'm sorry
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:20 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

Devonian, consider it payback for Brexit.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:21 AM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

Can I just say that the 538 election map, which I have permanently open in the tab next to this one and which I am compulsively refreshing nearly as often, looks very different based on how I sit in my chair? You know how the colors on an LCD change slightly depending on the viewing angle? Well if I crouch down slightly, the race looks much safer for Hillary than if I sit up nice and straight.

Hunchbacks for Hillary!
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

England does not need payback for Brexit, it's a built-in feature.
posted by argybarg at 9:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

What are Trump's Steves' pets peeves?
Robs Fords?
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:24 AM on August 12, 2016

Can I just say that the 538 election map, which I have permanently open in the tab next to this one and which I am compulsively refreshing nearly as often, looks very different based on how I sit in my chair? You know how the colors on an LCD change slightly depending on the viewing angle? Well if I crouch down slightly, the race looks much safer for Hillary than if I sit up nice and straight.


It is The Dress for 2016.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:28 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump Gives Away The Game On Outrageous Talk | Rachel Maddow | MSNBC

Trump really doesn't know how to use the word figuratively.
posted by Talez at 9:30 AM on August 12, 2016

Sort of a non sequitur at this moment, but I think in a decade or two Owen Wilson will play Donald Trump to much critical acclaim.
posted by snofoam at 9:33 AM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

> "Trump really doesn't know how to use the word figuratively."

Well, he also doesn't apparently know what sarcasm means, so.
posted by kyrademon at 9:34 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Saying that President Obama is the founder of ISIS is like saying King George II was the founder of the United States. It's not even wrong.
posted by Groundhog Week at 9:36 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I...I promise to stop making "joke" predictions that I think are hyperbolic in these threads

Aaron Sorkin got drunk and wrote a gritty modern adaptation of The Lathe of Heaven and you're the protagonist.
posted by cortex at 9:39 AM on August 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

Conservative Legal Scholars Prefer A Liberal Supreme Court To A President Trump

Those god damn ivory tower conservatives!

“The Supreme Court—and judicial appointments more broadly—is probably the single best reason to vote for Trump,” said Ilya Shapiro, a senior fellow in constitutional studies at the Cato Institute. “But even then, there’s a lot of uncertainty. How hard would Trump push to get a nominee confirmed? What would he do if his first choice were rejected? Would he make a ‘fabulous deal’ to trade judicial appointments for other priorities?”

“Trump put out a genuinely excellent list of potential appointees, but how much can we trust that list?” Shapiro continued. “Even Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, who were committed to appointing principled originalists and textualists, made mistakes; how would a president who knows nothing about the Constitution and thinks that judges ‘sign bills’ fare?”

[...]
Ilya Somin, who teaches law at George Mason University and also blogs for the Volokh Conspiracy, argues that a Trump presidency might even be worse for the courts than a Clinton one.

“Trump has a terrible record on constitutional issues,” he said. “He seeks to gut freedom of speech and constitutional property rights, and undermine constitutional constraints on executive power even more than Bush and Obama have.”

“Moreover, over the long term, a Trump victory increases the likelihood that the GOP will become a big-government xenophobic party hostile to civil liberties and opposed to most constitutional constraints on government power ― much like the far-right nationalist parties of Western Europe, whose platforms are very similar to his,” he continued. “Such a party is likely to do far more to undermine the Constitution than even a Hillary Clinton victory.”
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:40 AM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

Saying that President Obama is the founder of ISIS is like saying King George II was the founder of the United States. It's not even wrong.

It's not even wrong because it was George III triggered and fought the revolutionary war.
posted by Talez at 9:40 AM on August 12, 2016

Like an ineffective parent, Paul Ryan is just enabling Donald Trump

There have been no consequences from Ryan for crossing Ryan’s bright line on how those who have died for the country should be treated. Trump has not cleared up his comment about the Second Amendment, because few of his comments can ever really be cleared up, dependent as they are on trademark Trumpian innuendo and vagueness. [...]

Ryan can yammer on all he wants. At this point, it’s utterly meaningless and only counts as one more voice in a chorus of Trump enablement.

And what precisely is Ryan enabling? Not merely Trump but also a further and especially steep descent of American political culture into a nihilism corrosive enough to imperil the foundations of democracy and constitutional politics.

May this election ruin Paul Ryan's political career and his alleged reputation for policy wonkery. He's clearly a terrible judge of effective policy and personal character.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:41 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

It's not even wrong because it was George III triggered and fought the revolutionary war.

Oh. I know. That's the joke.
posted by Groundhog Week at 9:42 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

yes, I realized the mistake I made, but not until after the edit window had closed because I was out walking my pet peeve.

OMG, the next time someone shows up with a "Name my dog/cat/goldfish" request I'm totally going to suggest the name "Peeve".

So it can be their pet Peeve.

Getit?

(please clap)
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 9:43 AM on August 12, 2016 [30 favorites]

New NBC/WSJ/Marist polls

CO: HRC 46, Trump 32 (+14)
FL: HRC 44, Trump 39 (+5)
NC: HRC 48, Trump 39 (+9)
VA: HRC 46, Trump 33 (+13)

Aug 4-10
posted by chris24 at 9:43 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Zapp Brannigan + Trump quotes.


And just think how much better Trump's tweets would sound in your head with Kif's exasperated little "ugh" after each one.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:45 AM on August 12, 2016 [18 favorites]

There's been an amazing shift in Trump's language this morning. For months he's loved this line about how he's going to win so big, we're going to beg him to stop winning and he'll refuse. Now:

"And at the end, it’s either going to work or I’m going to, you know — I’m going to have a very, very nice, long vacation.”(source)

So does this mean he's accepting reality? No, of course not. It means he's going to decompensate. When Trump speaks the language of failure it hits him with a delay. He's going to unleash his most terrifying language of control and domination yet in the next 24-48 hours.

And if all this sounds like the way that family members try to read the signs with their abusive parent: bingo.
posted by argybarg at 9:49 AM on August 12, 2016 [32 favorites]

Trump's given up on New Jersey (I can't be bothered to do the Hamilton)
posted by Francis at 9:50 AM on August 12, 2016

The results suggest that his supporters, on average, do not have lower incomes than other Americans, nor are they more likely to be unemployed.

538 covered this a while ago too. And I'm... yeah I am not surprised and I wasn't surprised at 538's conclusions either. My anecdata, let me show you it. No actually let's just look at the real data.

And all the hang-wringing about but whyyyyy are these people so horribly racist???? Yeah, I actually don't much care at this point. If you want to talk about economic uplift, let's talk. If you want to talk about all the ways we should wring our liberal hands and try to feel the pain of virulent white supremacists (and also violent misogynists and homo/transphobics) I am not here for that. And I am doubleplus not here for that when the people spouting this shit make more than I do.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

So this whole election thing is one of your famous American practical jokes, right?
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 9:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Politicalwire: Donald Trump’s campaign has asked the RNC to open offices in all 50 states, a move one party aide said is a “complete waste of resources,” Playbook reports.

“For example, why boost resources in a state like Idaho, which is going to vote for Trump, or states like Hawaii or Massachusetts that certainly will not? An RNC source said it was a ‘fool’s errand’ and more for Trump’s ‘ego’ and for ‘bragging’ purposes, instead of deft campaign strategy. The source said it was a ‘personal request’ by Trump to have offices in all 50 states.”
posted by Chrysostom at 9:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

So this whole election thing is one of your famous American practical jokes, right?

More of another classic American pastime, the Grift or Confidence Trick.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:57 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm just sitting here making sounds of quiet apoplexy.

Maybe Trump needs to re-take that ninth grade civics class again.
posted by mochapickle at 9:58 AM on August 12, 2016

So this whole election thing is one of your famous American practical jokes, right?

I keep waiting for Ashton Kutcher to jump out the back of a Lincoln Navigator wearing a trucker hat but so far
posted by phunniemee at 9:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

And just think how much better Trump's tweets would sound in your head with Kif's exasperated little "ugh" after each one.

That's what Paul Ryan is for.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

Wait, hang on.

Trump closes his office in New Jersey.

Trump wants to open offices in all 50 states.

Uhhhh. Right hand, please speak with your left hand.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump's given up on New Jersey

It's mutual.
posted by PlusDistance at 10:00 AM on August 12, 2016 [27 favorites]

Donald Trump’s campaign has asked the RNC to open offices in all 50 states, a move one party aide said is a “complete waste of resources,” Playbook reports.

“For example, why boost resources in a state like Idaho, which is going to vote for Trump, or states like Hawaii or Massachusetts that certainly will not?

I think that Trump's business record confirms a degree of generosity with other people's money.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:01 AM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

“For example, why boost resources in a state like Idaho, which is going to vote for Trump, or states like Hawaii or Massachusetts that certainly will not? An RNC source said it was a ‘fool’s errand’ and more for Trump’s ‘ego’ and for ‘bragging’ purposes, instead of deft campaign strategy. The source said it was a ‘personal request’ by Trump to have offices in all 50 states.”

Trump might be on to something. Democrats are so far ahead and trying to run up the score that all fifty states need to be at least defended.
posted by Talez at 10:03 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump will always have an office in New Jersey: Chris Christie's office.
posted by zachlipton at 10:06 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

50 state strategy sounds like someone was reading about Howard Dean's version of the same strategy in 2008.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:07 AM on August 12, 2016

Interesting PPP nugget: voters with passport Clinton +15, voters without Trump +11.
posted by peacheater at 10:09 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bernie is pushing downballot candidates, naming names and giving details of their campaign struggles. I'm still on the Bernie mailing list; I got this announcement/request-for-funds too.

Anyone know if the Republican runners-up are doing anything similar?

... Stop laughing, dammit.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:10 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Josh Marshall: Big >Clinton is ahead by AT LEAST 10 POINTS in states whch alone give her enuf electoral votes (273) to be President
posted by OmieWise at 10:12 AM on August 12, 2016 [12 favorites]

> "Anyone know if the Republican runners-up are doing anything similar?"

I believe Rubio has been heavily pushing a senatorial candidate in Florida.
posted by kyrademon at 10:14 AM on August 12, 2016 [21 favorites]

Zapp Brannigan + Trump quotes. This is the best thing ever.

Better than Trump + Laura Branigan quotes?
posted by octobersurprise at 10:21 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

A Reagan voter is heard fighting back at a Trump rally.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:23 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

What I would love to know is, how the hell are both Massachusetts (0.7% chance for Trump) and California (0.5% chance for Trump) not 100% Clinton at this point, in 538's forecasts?

I assume it's a nod to the possibility that an enormous kaiju will emerge from the murky depths, swallowing the entire eastern region of the state whole in its mighty jaws. Then the crazies out near Pittsfield nudge Trump to a slight margin of victory, before they can redraw the electoral map.

Honestly, if 2016 were a movie, that would only be the second or third most unlikely thing to have happened thus far.
posted by Mayor West at 10:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

TPM: Hillary Clinton releases 2015 tax returns, challenges Trump to do the same.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

At this point, can't put carts in front of horses/count chickens before they're hatched buuuut....

I'm really really enjoying watching states go from red to pink to light pink to white to light blue and it's a personal little game to guess which ones will do the same, or at least come close by the time November rolls around....

Aug: "Hillary stumps in Houston!"
Sep: "Trump ramps up Kansas game"
Oct: "Pence spending 24/7 in Alabama"
Nov: "Last ditch campaign stop in Cheyenne by Trump attracts dozens!"
posted by splen at 10:32 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

TPM: Hillary Clinton releases 2015 tax returns, challenges Trump to do the same.

Only 40 pages? Sad! Could be audited in an afternoon. Trump has one page for every dollar he owns: or, every penny, more likely.
posted by dis_integration at 10:41 AM on August 12, 2016

Is Donald Trump the founder of ISIS?

But seriously, recent reports show ISIS to be badly run enough to be a potential Trump Enterprise.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:41 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump Live (PA)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:41 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

My next wave of targets list for Hillary Clinton (assuming she's working on the supposed battleground, Iowa, and Arizona right now):
In the North: Missouri, Illinois (two Senate candidates there)
In the South: Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, and beating the odds to take Texas.
Also throwing Bill into Arkansas to see if he's still got it.

After that what's left? Appalachia? And the North Midwest?
posted by Francis at 10:42 AM on August 12, 2016

The current polls are great, but here's how I frighten myself late at night:

I count up the electoral votes of aaaaaaall the states that I'm preeeeeeeetty sure Clinton will win even if things tighten up considerably ...

... and it comes to 269.
posted by kyrademon at 10:45 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Interesting PPP nugget: voters with passport Clinton +15, voters without Trump +11.

Quick! Start handing out passports!
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 10:45 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Yet a major new analysis from Gallup, based on 87,000 interviews the polling company conducted over the past year, suggests this narrative is not complete. According to this new analysis, those who view Trump favorably have not been disproportionately affected by foreign trade or immigration, compared to people with unfavorable views of the Republican presidential nominee. The results suggest that his supporters, on average, do not have lower incomes than other Americans, nor are they more likely to be unemployed.

That analysis used a ton of words to evade the obvious conclusion: the only thing that ties Trump supporters together is racism.
posted by msalt at 10:46 AM on August 12, 2016 [22 favorites]

New Yorker: Donald Trump’s Tax-Return Dodge

In March, two of Trump’s tax lawyers, Sheri Dillon and William Nelson, of Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, released a letter to Trump that said the candidate had interests in roughly five hundred business entities and, thus, “your personal federal income tax returns are inordinately large and complex for an individual.” The lawyers said, further, that prior I.R.S. examinations of his taxes over the previous decade had produced no net deficiency. The letter said that the returns had been under “continuous examination” by the I.R.S. but, curiously, said nothing about how or why that might affect the disclosure of the returns. (When I contacted the firm, Dillon declined [to comment].)

Yikes. Link to letter is from original article.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:47 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is Donald Trump the founder of ISIS?

I mean, given the established pattern in which he projects nutty accusations on others that actually apply to him, I think we should at least consider this explanation. [election thread clarity caveat: joke]
posted by yarrow at 10:47 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

here's how I frighten myself late at night:

I count up the electoral votes of aaaaaaall the states that I'm preeeeeeeetty sure Clinton will win

... and it comes to 269.

And there, on the voting booth, was a HOOK!
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:50 AM on August 12, 2016 [33 favorites]

Why is Mike Kelly in Erie calling everything a "subscription"?
posted by mochapickle at 10:51 AM on August 12, 2016

Bêtes noires, actually. The plural in English is the same as the plural in French, in this case.

Yes, ugh, my 7th grade French teacher from 40 years ago would be so disappointed in me.
posted by aught at 10:51 AM on August 12, 2016

Any of you listening to the new HRC podcast?
posted by peacheater at 10:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

"I'm seeing that Gary Johnson is currently predicted to take 8.2% of the popular vote (again, according to 538's polls-only forecast). My intuition is that this number is likely to go down as the campaign heats up in the Fall and the two main candidates come to dominate the popular consciousness even more "

Ron Paul was a colorful personality and powerful speaker who had geniuine charisma. Gary Johnson is suffering by comparison, and has to compete with two candidates who start out as Shakespearian characters.

Even if he joins the debates I don't think people will notice him.
posted by msalt at 10:55 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mmmm...the land of chocolate!
posted by PlusDistance at 11:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Any of you listening to the new HRC podcast?

Yes, I like it. Nothing revelatory, but it's nice to hear her relaxed and conversational. I'd like to hear her do a podcast as the interviewer. Even interviewing Republican legislators.
posted by argybarg at 11:04 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm waiting for Paul F. Tompkins to drop by.
posted by drezdn at 11:08 AM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

I don't understand the comparison? Clinton had been governor of a state and was quite accomplished politically. And had relatively centrist views on a bunch of issues? How was he Trump-like?

It's less clear to me now than when I was in the grips of insomnia... Let me see if I can retrieve whatever the fuck I was thinking when I wrote that.

Yes, Bill Clinton was an accomplished politician, competent, a good speaker, not actually unhinged, etc. I wasn't playing "let's imagine exact mirror universe Democrat Trump" but trying to think more of functional similarities.

(Though, speaking to your point about Clinton being centrist; Trump presented super-centrist on a lot of GOP issues in the primaries. He's moved now towards the standard GOP platform stuff, extremism-in-centrist-clothing, but he's lost popularity as well.

(And anyway, it's hard to know what is centrist in the GOP anymore now that the moderate republicans are MIA... Perhaps the map of the GOP with the reasonable economic types towards the center and the racists and God-botherers on the fringe is way out of date. Maybe Brownback's economic scorched earth policies are less centrist, more extreme, than the bathroom bills and anti-abortion encroachment. Maybe bigotry is more centrist than total economic destruction of the state; maybe Grover Norquist is actually to the right of Fred Phelps when the moment comes to actually drown the government; maybe your racist-ass boss is (regrettably) more representative of the center and status quo than a supposedly socially liberal libertarian who nevertheless thinks taxes are Actually Theft and secession is on the table.))

I think what I was thinking was: Democratic voters were enthusiastic about Clinton because of some Trump-like good qualities he had, while happily ignoring some Trump-like flaws and warning signs of his, all in a context that is perhaps similar-ish to what the GOP is going through now.

IOW, if I said, "Fast talking demagogue who seems to be be reckless with the party's sacred cows, a womanizer, whose campaign finances are incredibly dodgy — but he's popular because he's going to win, he's going to take the Presidency back, he's going to redeem the last President's humiliations 8 years ago, and he's not like the two boring schlubs who got stomped in the interim, this is a new day and a new course," would you know if I was talking about Clinton or Trump?
posted by nom de poop at 11:08 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

538: What a Clinton landslide would look like. TLDR: It's beautiful.

Really good move on her part to podcast -- an audience that feels small to her is playing to her strength.
posted by Dashy at 11:10 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Wheeere's your taaaxess??" in the style of Basement Jaxx's 'Where's Your Head At" goes through my head every time I see trump now.
posted by cashman at 11:10 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

IOW, if I said, "Fast talking demagogue who seems to be be reckless with the party's sacred cows, a womanizer, whose campaign finances are incredibly dodgy — but he's popular because he's going to win, he's going to take the Presidency back, he's going to redeem the last President's humiliations 8 years ago, and he's not like the two boring schlubs who got stomped in the interim, this is a new day and a new course," would you know if I was talking about Clinton or Trump?

Um, yes?

(FTR, taking government/an office/the country "back" is a code for "back from those people" not "back from the other party" in my mind.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:13 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I also would pay into a gofundme for travel expenses so that the "Why the @#$% you lyin" guy could show up at every single Trump rally, possibly being behind Trump a couple of times and just giving a signature look after Trump says something.
posted by cashman at 11:13 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm waiting for Paul F. Tompkins to drop by.

"Be sure to vote for Hillary, because Hillary is onnnnnnnnnly the best!"
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:14 AM on August 12, 2016

I would bet that Trump will drop out before he will release his taxes. I think that's been his position all along.
posted by bongo_x at 11:14 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think what I was thinking was: Democratic voters were enthusiastic about Clinton because of some Trump-like good qualities he had, while happily ignoring some Trump-like flaws and warning signs of his, all in a context that is perhaps similar-ish to what the GOP is going through now.

IOW, if I said, "Fast talking demagogue who seems to be be reckless with the party's sacred cows, a womanizer, whose campaign finances are incredibly dodgy — but he's popular because he's going to win, he's going to take the Presidency back, he's going to redeem the last President's humiliations 8 years ago, and he's not like the two boring schlubs who got stomped in the interim, this is a new day and a new course," would you know if I was talking about Clinton or Trump?

I think you are REALLY reaching here. I don't get the comparison at all, and it's certainly offensive in a way to Clinton that it should not be. Whatever the Bill Clinton's failings, and they are legion, he is not a demagogue, a charlatan, an unprepared oaf, or a populist whipping up hate and fear. He's pretty much the exact opposite of that, regardless of how you feel about his policies, politics, and problems.

Were you around for the Clinton presidency?
posted by OmieWise at 11:14 AM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

Someone tell me when the Trump PA rally actually starts, because I can't tolerate the music anymore and have hit mute, and I need to minimize the tab to get work done.

Because... really, guys? Hymns? You're using actual hymns as your political rally waiting music? I get that you can't afford much rock music, and the stuff you can afford, has problems where the artists keep coming out and telling their public that they hate you, but...

Nope. Not willing to have hymns as background music while I wait for the raw material for more snark. I have a post-apoc list in my Spotify account; I'll listen to that instead.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:16 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

As you watched the responses in these threads to Bill Clinton's speech at the DNC this year, you got to see his target audience wrestle with their mixed emotions over the man's strengths and failings. He's a complicated figure and the Democrats' relationship to him is complicated.

Not on a Trump level, though.
posted by argybarg at 11:17 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

The fact that he got in a race where taxes are expected to be released tells you he never thought he'd come close to winning. It was all a grift to increase fame/stave off financial issues. Because he'll never release them since they'll reveal he's not that rich, doesn't pay taxes, does dodgy stuff, doesn't give to charity, etc. etc.
posted by chris24 at 11:17 AM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

drezdn: "I'm waiting for Paul F. Tompkins to drop by."

Oooh, maybe she'll guest on Mike and Tom Eat Snacks.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:17 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

FFS can we drop the "who is/could be/might be the democratic equivalent of Trump" thing?
posted by skewed at 11:17 AM on August 12, 2016 [12 favorites]

FFS can we drop the "who is/could be/might be the democratic equivalent of Trump" thing?

Okay.

It's totes David "Avocado" Wolfe.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:20 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Because... really, guys? Hymns? You're using actual hymns as your political rally waiting music?

Donald Trump Tells Christian Leaders He Has to Win Election So He Doesn't Go to Hell:

Speaking to evangelical leaders in Florida on Thursday, Donald Trump emphasized the importance of this year’s election to Christians in general and Donald Trump in particular, who, by his own account, must win in November or spend eternity in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.
...
“So go out and spread the word, and once I get in, I’ll do my thing that I do very well,” he continued. “And I figure it’s probably—maybe the only way I’m going to get into heaven, so I better do a good job.”

posted by kirkaracha at 11:21 AM on August 12, 2016

This is sin! This is sin! This is sin! It's a sin, it's a sin, it's a sin!
(Trump is playing Ludwig Van in the run-up to his PA hijinx today.)
posted by Don Pepino at 11:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

For a little levity in a stressful election season... TrumpDonald.org
posted by chris24 at 11:22 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

FFS can we drop the "who is/could be/might be the democratic equivalent of Trump" thing?

Yes, because all right thinking people agree that it's Kanye and it's time for the rest of this nonsense to stop.
posted by bongo_x at 11:23 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump emphasized the importance of this year’s election to Christians in general and Donald Trump in particular, who, by his own account, must win in November or spend eternity in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.

Even by the twisted, hypocritical interpretation of Christianity promoted by the religious right, I am reasonably sure this is not how it's supposed to work.
posted by infinitywaltz at 11:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is sin! This is sin! This is sin! It's a sin, it's a sin, it's a sin!
(Trump is playing Ludwig Van in the run-up to his PA hijinx today.)

A friend is actually on site because she wants to see the horror, and says that they aren’t playing Beethoven at the event - so I think the live stream audio differs from what the attendees are hearing. Sounds like a lot of classic rock at the venue.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just here to say I <3 this Guardian headline:

Donald Trump gets day wrong twice while implying Clinton lacks mental stamina
posted by salix at 11:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [29 favorites]

Don Pepino: "This is sin! This is sin! This is sin! It's a sin, it's a sin, it's a sin!
(Trump is playing Ludwig Van in the run-up to his PA hijinx today.)"

Everything I've ever done, everything I ever do, every place I've ever been, everywhere I'm going to, it's a sin.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:25 AM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

Wait, do all election losers go to hell?
posted by bongo_x at 11:25 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oooh, maybe she'll guest on Mike and Tom Eat Snacks.

I can't decide if a Harmontown appearance would be a good idea.

Trump is playing Ludwig Van in the run-up to his PA hijinx today.

I think that's the YouTuber streaming it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:25 AM on August 12, 2016

he's going to redeem the last President's humiliations 8 years ago, and he's not like the two boring schlubs who got stomped in the interim

Also, it was 12 years and three schlubs, one of whom was a sitting President.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:26 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

One the one hand, the "who's the left-wing Trump equivalent" is a distracting side meme.

On the other, it's helping some of us understand Trump's appeal - how did he manage to attract a large enough number of supporters to get where he is? And - more importantly - how can we keep it from happening again?

Knowing what the techniques would look like with different background rhetoric is important for that.

(But I agree... we've pretty much squeezed all the value out of that lemon.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:27 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Even by the twisted, hypocritical interpretation of Christianity promoted by the religious right, I am reasonably sure this is not how it's supposed to work.

Yeah, for your Jack Chick fans it's sola fide, faith not works. He doesn't try to understand why they think he can be forgiven.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:29 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm actually cautiously optimistic thinking about Rubio getting his heart broken again in November. He just started airing 1 commercial this week in our area and it talks about what a champion for veterans he is. That's the sum focus of the ad.

Patrick Murphy, on the other hand, has ignored everyone else in the D primary and focused on the general, bringing some star power for almost a month now and then hit him again. What I LOVE is that in both ads he explicitly says "progressive", "women's right to choose" and "gun lobby" right out loud. With no shame. And he is only 3 points behind. In FLORIDA.
posted by hollygoheavy at 11:29 AM on August 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

Sadness... I was so hoping he had to go to public domain stuff because Mick Jagger sued him or something. And the first part of Ode to Joy is all lippertylip sounding like a Sylvester 'n' Tweetie cartoon. Trump looks like the Warner Bros. bulldog. It was all so perfect.... And now some blowhard is yelling.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:30 AM on August 12, 2016

(O damn, it's Reince Priebus.)
posted by Don Pepino at 11:32 AM on August 12, 2016

That's "Obvious anagram Reince Priebus."
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm beginning to think that the Republican Party is going to have a total collapse, much like the Whig party in the 1850s.
posted by humanfont at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2016

YouTuber had Wagner cued up for DJT's entrance!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:35 AM on August 12, 2016

Wait, do all election losers go to hell?


If god were good, all politicians would.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 11:38 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh good lord, the unidentified Mexico plant guy story again. (Guy in audience: "WE'RE GONNA BUILD A WAAAALLLLLL!")
posted by mochapickle at 11:38 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

DJT: Bring back jobs, 18 years ago people earned more. Mexico building plants. tThey're he 8th wonder of the world.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:39 AM on August 12, 2016

Thinking about it a bit, that's a pretty good slogan:

GALADRIEL 2016: ALL SHALL LOVE ME AND DESPAIR
posted by Chrysostom at 11:39 AM on August 12, 2016 [23 favorites]

DJT forgets word for train.
posted by mochapickle at 11:40 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

(FTR, taking government/an office/the country "back" is a code for "back from those people" not "back from the other party" in my mind.)

Take "the country" back I can see. The Presidency is pretty neutral IMHO; I think ur mind codes are wrong.

Were you around for the Clinton presidency?

I was. I'll leave you to getting angry about comparisons I didn't make.

Also, it was 12 years and three schlubs, one of whom was a sitting President.

Oops you're right!

I was pretty young when Carter lost to Reagan. My elementary school had a mock election. I liked Carter, I thought he was moral. Reagan was a clown, an obvious moron. He won the elementary school mock election in a landslide and I've probably never recovered from the shock of that. GWB's re-election was pretty much the same feeling.
posted by nom de poop at 11:41 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Really good move on her part to podcast -- an audience that feels small to her is playing to her strength.

Agreed - While I won't be listening to the podcast since I prefer stuff more on the analytical side, even if unabashedly partisan (e.g. Keeping it 1600), one thing that struck me when watching the Circus was how much better she is with small groups and one-on-one's than she is trying to deliver an oratory to a large audience. Some people have the knack for one or the other or in rare cases both, but she definitely has it for the smaller groups.
posted by modernnomad at 11:41 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

"You could call them locomotives. Whatever the hell they are, they're beautiful."
Sorry, but... what?
posted by Don Pepino at 11:41 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Guys one person appointed Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer to the Supreme Court and the other was sued by the Justice Department twice for discriminatory rental practices. Which one is Bill Clinton and which one is Donald Trump? Who could say?
posted by one_bean at 11:42 AM on August 12, 2016 [26 favorites]

Fun game from somethingawful:

a fun thing to search on Twitter: "to:realDonaldTrump i you but"

it's a pretty good filter for frustrated fans trying to earnestly connect with him

@realDonaldTrump sorry, I am..for now..still with you. BUT Are you nuts?? You are not a character in a reality series! This is real life!

@realDonaldTrump I have been a staunch supporter of you, but these appalling comments are so unnecessary. I'm now doubting my own sanity WTF

@realDonaldTrump @oreillyfactor MR.TRUMP,I'M VOTING FOR YOU,BUT YOU'RE STARTING TO MAKE ME NERVOUS WHEN YOU KEEP BERRATING PEOPLE. STOP THAT

@realDonaldTrump im not trying to figure you out Donald. I changed my party to vote for you but now Im not so sure

@realDonaldTrump so are voters. I support you but you make me nervous at times. Keep to the straight facts and you'll be fine.

That covers the past 3 hours or so
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:42 AM on August 12, 2016 [46 favorites]

DJT: Somethi about locomotives? Miners out of work. Coal is clean.

Much harder to track what he's saying than Hillary.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:42 AM on August 12, 2016

DJT forgets word for train.

Was he trying to tell a story from Atlas Shrugged as if it really happened? "I saw this documentary..."
posted by bongo_x at 11:43 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

DJT forgets word for train.

DR. STEVEN BRULE FOR PRENGISDENT 2016
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 11:44 AM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm starting to get really worried about this "friend" of his that builds the plants in Mexico once DJT becomes "secretary of keeping business in the United States and by the way we're going to build up our military very strong believe me."
posted by Don Pepino at 11:44 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Protesters holding up signs that say "Tax Forms" get escorted out.
posted by cashman at 11:44 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I assume it's a nod to the possibility that an enormous kaiju will emerge from the murky depths . . .

With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound
He drags the party of Lincoln down

Helpless pundits on cable shows
Scream bug-eyed as he looks in on them

He picks up the GOP and he throws it back down
As he wades through the bull that he's spreadin' around

Oh no, they say he's got to go, go-go Trumpzilla!
Oh, no . . .

SCRAAAAATCH!
Hats! Hands! Hair! GOPs! Whigs! Walls! Lifts! Guns! Cops! Deals! Cheetos! Believe meeeeee!!

Trumpzilla is really neat!
He is filled with orange meat!
Who's afraid of Trumpzilla!

posted by Herodios at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

DJT volunteers to be Secretary of Keeping Companies in the USA. Which I think he thinks is bigger than President?
posted by mochapickle at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2016

I really hope Hillary takes a stroll between two ferns. That could be awesome.
posted by Dashy at 11:48 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

DJT: Manufacturing going to Mexico. Protesting (I think) interrupts. Bernie had better protestors. H Hillary has no clue. He'd tell companies he'll tax them if they import products.

He uses Indianapolis as an example for some reason.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:49 AM on August 12, 2016

What I would love to know is, how the hell are both Massachusetts (0.7% chance for Trump) and California (0.5% chance for Trump) not 100% Clinton at this point, in 538's forecasts? Am I to understand that roughly 0.5% is the lowest odds that 538 is willing to put on Clinton ... I dunno, drop-kicking a baby on live television, between now and November?

Naw, it's not considering that substantive events might happen.

It just takes the recent polls as of today and says "Okay, but what if they randomly move up or down tomorrow? And then randomly move up or down the day after that? And then randomly move up or down for each of the eight-whatever days until election day? And then, on election day, we hold a pretend election based on how those polls have randomly moved, where what happens on election day is also partly random."

The 0.7% chance in MA just means that 7 in 1000 times, the random walk towards election day led to a set of polls such that Trump could eke out a bare majority when the random things on election day also went his way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:51 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

DJT: PA lost 1 in 3 Manufacturing jobs since NAFTA, which Bill Clinton signed. TPP is as bad. Hillary said it's the gold standard.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:52 AM on August 12, 2016

Politicalwire: Donald Trump’s campaign has asked the RNC to open offices in all 50 states, a move one party aide said is a “complete waste of resources,” Playbook reports.

“For example, why boost resources in a state like Idaho, which is going to vote for Trump, or states like Hawaii or Massachusetts that certainly will not? An RNC source said it was a ‘fool’s errand’ and more for Trump’s ‘ego’ and for ‘bragging’ purposes, instead of deft campaign strategy. The source said it was a ‘personal request’ by Trump to have offices in all 50 states.”

Someone needs to inform him that to have a fighting chance he needs at least 50 offices in each state. Maybe 75. No.. wait.... 100 would be better. With at least 25 staffers each.

If he's gonna waste the RNC's money then the least he can do is spray it all over the country like a fire hose
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

It turns out that the Trump Gold Card membership, introduced a few days ago for $200, is on sale for just $49.
posted by zachlipton at 11:54 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Another protestor, I think. Followed by another.

DJT: Your (protestr's) mother is voting for Trump.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:55 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump just "yo mama-ed" a protester? Is this real life?
posted by Weeping_angel at 11:57 AM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

"Your mom votes for Trump" sounds more like an insult, actually.

and she goes to college
posted by narwhal at 11:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump just "yo mama-ed" a protester? Is this real life?

But in the normal form of a yo mama joke, whatever yo mama is being compared to is supposed to be insulting.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:59 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

DJT: you see the plants, they're falling over. Upstate NY is a disaster. Hillary said she'd turn it around. She got elected and did nothing. She's not going to renegotiate trade deals. CNN is the Clinton News Network.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:59 AM on August 12, 2016

Exactly. #yomamafail
posted by narwhal at 12:00 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

and she goes to college

Well, statistically speaking, probably not
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:00 PM on August 12, 2016

"I respect the Washington Post for writing one bad story"... but not, y'know, enough to allow them to cover his campaign.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:00 PM on August 12, 2016

Someone needs to inform him that to have a fighting chance he needs at least 50 offices in each state. Maybe 75. No.. wait.... 100 would be better. With at least 25 staffers each.

Office in every county. You don't want to just cede a county to Hillary, do you?
posted by Chrysostom at 12:01 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

"We're being talked about all over the world; nobody can believe it." THIS I can buy, yes.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:01 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yes, because all right thinking people agree that it's Kanye and it's time for the rest of this nonsense to stop.

Yes, but who would Kanye round up?
posted by thetruthisjustalie at 12:02 PM on August 12, 2016

Listening to Trump. I think I’d like more of the Anglo-Saxon elegy about what Pennsylvania looks like from the air, and less rambling about trade deals and CNN.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:03 PM on August 12, 2016

DJT: emails deleted. Pay for play. Our government is for sale. All the news is about Trump. Fox has been fair. She hasn't had a news conference. They'd call for the death penalty if i said i short-circuited. Hillary sleeps.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:03 PM on August 12, 2016

Pop culture reference disclaimer: "Your mom goes to college" refers to a previous (the original?) #yomamafail in Napoleon Dynamite.
posted by narwhal at 12:04 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

On further reflection, I think it was the subtler "yer mom" joke. "You know who likes me plenty? Yer mom."
posted by Weeping_angel at 12:04 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

"She reads a little speech, she goes home and goes to sleep and the next day she does it again. And nobody does anything about it!"
About the... sleeping? She's not up reading your tweets in real time, this is a problem?

Oh, here he goes walking back the Founder of ISIS.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:05 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Someone needs to inform him that to have a fighting chance he needs at least 50 offices in each state. Maybe 75. No.. wait.... 100 would be better. With at least 25 staffers each.

YOOOGE Offices! Classy offices -- the best! With gold phone banks! And your name over the door in 20-foot-high shiny letters!
posted by PlusDistance at 12:05 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's all happening! I just got an Evan McMullin sponsored post in my facebook feed! (it took me a few minutes to remember where I had heard the name before. I thought it was somebody I went to high school with at first)
posted by sporkwort at 12:05 PM on August 12, 2016 [26 favorites]

Wait, did Trump just say that he might short-circuit?

He's a malfunctioning android. This explains so much.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:06 PM on August 12, 2016

@ddale8: Donald Trump, with no apparent self-awareness, is complaining that Clinton can't get elected unless the media ignores her to cover him.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:06 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

DJT: Obama is he founder of ISIS. He's so weak, bad. Obvious. I'm being sarcastic. Not that sarcastic. He should get an MVP. "How could I say that?" These people are the lowest form of life.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:06 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

It just takes the recent polls as of today and says "Okay, but what if they randomly move up or down tomorrow? And then randomly move up or down the day after that? And then randomly move up or down for each of the eight-whatever days until election day? And then, on election day, we hold a pretend election based on how those polls have randomly moved, where what happens on election day is also partly random."

The 0.7% chance in MA just means that 7 in 1000 times, the random walk towards election day led to a set of polls such that Trump could eke out a bare majority when the random things on election day also went his way.

Even the nowcast gives Trump a 0.5% chance of taking MA. On the other hand, there have only been 57 presidential elections in history to compare to (and most of those were a long time ago), so maybe giving something a probability of 1 in 200 isn't so incredibly high. I believe they also say on the page about their model that they use a distribution with long tails, probably to avoid giving the appearance of certainty.
posted by dfan at 12:07 PM on August 12, 2016

You know if I were more conspiracy minded I'd think that all of the subtle shifts people tend to refer to as the Mandela Effect are in fact alternate timelines trying to get as far away from timeline Trump as possible.

"The Berenstein Bears Aren't Dealing With This Shit."
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:08 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

@SopanDeb: Trump says he was "obviously" being sarcastic about "founder of ISIS" comments but then says "but not that sarcastic."

I wonder if the RNC/Trump campaign staff meeting are watching how on-message he's being right now.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

I can't believe you folks are actually listening to Trump. You have much more intestinal fortitude than I do. Or grasp on sanity, or something.
posted by Dashy at 12:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

He uses Indianapolis as an example for some reason.

13th largest city in the US, but everybody acts like we don't exist. We're just happy to be noticed.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Just to confirm any doubt about Drumpf's core constituency, he's now emailing fundraising appeals to a list of names rented from Glenn Beck.

Beck has presumably come around from his declaration last year that he would not vote for Trump, amid dire predictions for the GOP if he won the nomination: "If they put Donald Trump in, try to put him in office, if that's what the people want, you are going to see an end to the Republican Party. It will just be over, there'll just be nothing left."

So perhaps der Drumpf's calculatedly crazy statements have won him at least one vote.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

13th largest city in the US, but everybody acts like we don't exist. We're just happy to be noticed.

There, there. We're all very fond of the Windy Apple.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

I hope Glenn Beck got paid in advance to rent out that list.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

DJT: PA lost 68,000 jobs. America first. Hillary's fault. She has approved virtually every tax increase in front of her. She wants massive tax increasing. I'm for decrease. Businesses will stay. I'd make them. Your coal and steel industries have been ravaged. They don't want loans.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:12 PM on August 12, 2016

"She reads a little speech, she goes home and goes to sleep and the next day she does it again. And nobody does anything about it!"

This is literally what a Presidential campaign consists of according to everybody not named Donald Trump. What exactly does he want people to "do about it?"
posted by zachlipton at 12:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

13th largest city in the US, but everybody acts like we don't exist. We're just happy to be noticed.

"Welcome to Indianapolis, America's Guy Fleegman!"
posted by zombieflanders at 12:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh, no, his foamcore charts? This bit kills me.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can we stop it with the Drumpf thing? It's basically mocking him for being from a family of immigrants. John Oliver is probably deeply regretting doing that bit, at this point. It may have been funny when he did it, but at this point it's not only tired, it's actually a little offensive.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [44 favorites]

13th largest city in the US, but everybody acts like we don't exist.

To be fair, you need people to remember that Chicago exists before you have a chance there.

"She goes home and goes to sleep and the next day she does it again" is an actual political campaign. That's what makes it such a bizarre comment. Trump's got his early evening thing in Altoona, then he's back to NYC as soon as his jet can carry him.
posted by holgate at 12:14 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

DJT: Syrian refugees! We don't know we're they're coming from!

Um, Syria?
posted by mochapickle at 12:14 PM on August 12, 2016 [21 favorites]

Fuckin Hillary keeps SLEEPING
posted by nom de poop at 12:15 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

DR. STEVEN BRULE FOR PRENGISDENT 2016
Well, he *is* a Steve, so he has that going for him, anyway...
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:16 PM on August 12, 2016

DJT: ISIS. Gotta get tough. Brings out chart for Eirie job losses. Barack leting in Syrian refugees. Brings out chart showing them. San Bernardino. If we had someone with a gun carnage would not have been.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:17 PM on August 12, 2016

Do we really want a president who lies motionless and unconscious for hours on end?
posted by theodolite at 12:17 PM on August 12, 2016 [61 favorites]

I tried to make #womensleepingdangerously a thing on Twitter, but I have, like, 6 followers, so it didn't take off.

Still.
posted by suelac at 12:17 PM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

Twitter Users Imagine Other Signs Trump Could Hold Up On Stage

Someone took a picture of Trump holding up one of his graphs on stage and Rob Flaherty, deputy digital communications director of Hillary Clinton's campaign, posted the photograph to Twitter and asked people to go to town.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:18 PM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

I wonder if the RNC/Trump campaign staff meeting are watching how on-message he's being right now.

This is an amazing image: they're all in a wood-paneled boardroom, sitting around a long table, with Trump babbling away on the TV. They're soaked with sweat, jackets off, ties at half mast, heads in their hands, tossing down tumbler after tumbler of scotch and/or alka-seltzer. Every time Trump stops to take a breath, you can hear the muffled sobbing.
posted by PlusDistance at 12:19 PM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

> Fuckin Hillary keeps SLEEPING

... around?
posted by porpoise at 12:20 PM on August 12, 2016

This is so surreal. Donald's reading us the snake parable.
posted by mochapickle at 12:20 PM on August 12, 2016

The irony about the Hillary sleeps at home comment, is that some people are saying that Trump flies home to New York every night to go home.
posted by drezdn at 12:21 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

RIDE THE SNAKE
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

At last we get to Trump's sacrifices: he may never see his properties again if he wins. And he loves them.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

It’s a weird experience watching him give a speech. Part of my brain is trying to tell me that he’s good at it, and there are snippets where you can see that, if he could just focus, he could be genuinely effective. But he has the self-discipline and attention span of a housefly.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:23 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Twitter Users Imagine Other Signs Trump Could Hold Up On Stage

That was just a matter of time. When he held up his loyalty pledge, I thought it was so ripe for photoshoppery that it showed how unprepared he was to be in the public eye in a role where he doesn't control the narrative.
posted by peeedro at 12:24 PM on August 12, 2016

I just want to thank you all, by the way, for helping me retain my sanity through this seriously terrifying time.

Thank you to everyone keeping track of these events in real time, thank you to everyone digging up the deep background material, thank you to everyone putting that material in context, thank you to everyone who's doing GOTV work, and thank you thank you thank you for the stoopid jokes. I don't know how I'd be able to stand this otherwise.

It's also worth pointing out, maybe, how different this feels from 2004, when I hung out all day in Daily Kos and Atrios and maybe TPM when I could take Josh's writing style. It really all was a bubble and an echo chamber, and as a result I have rarely in my life been sandbagged and gut-punched as hard as on Election Night '04. This is a lesson that seems like it was well and truly taken to heart by just about everyone who was there — I see so much more external reality-testing going on here, and I'm especially grateful for that.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:25 PM on August 12, 2016 [28 favorites]

> "... crazy statements have won him at least one vote."

Oh, more than one. The one friend I have that I'm now sure is voting for Trump (there are a few more that are possible but I'm holding out hope they aren't) is flat-out nuts. The "never met a conspiracy theory she didn't like" kind of nuts, but a few years ago it took a turn from Taxation Is Illegal and Vaccines Cause Autism into Obama Is Coming For Our Guns.

I was kind of hoping she'd be voting for Gary Johnson this year, since she thinks of herself as a Libertarian, but as it turns out she's too concerned about the possibility of Clinton winning. Last I checked, by the way, she sincerely believed that Clinton is a shape-changing reptilian alien.

It really makes me sad. I've known her for 30 years, and she's one of my oldest friends. But I've watched her slide deeper and deeper into a kind of shared social madness over the years. Even before the Trump support, she posted some bullshit anti-trans stuff on her facebook feed, which made me wonder if this was the year I would finally have to cut ties.
posted by kyrademon at 12:25 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

DJT: Who likes the snake? Hillary wants 550% more. Reads poem about a woman rescuing a snake who bites her. We're led by stupid people. I don't need this. We have deficits. Mexico will pay for the wall. Orlando. Shooters father sitting behind Hillary. We have to win PA. Hillary is kept out of spotlight. She's not exposed to PA. Her mind is not exposed to questions. We need to repeal Obamacare. Increases are coming. Your deductible is so high you never get to use it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:25 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

DJT: you see the plants, they're falling over. Upstate NY is a disaster. Hillary said she'd turn it around. She got elected and did nothing.

What actually happened was that Clinton promised upstate New York that she would work to create 200,000 new jobs in the region. She was elected, and by March of that same year had introduced 7 new bills into Congress aimed at helping revitalize upstate New York. Every one of them was defeated. She then worked on getting federal grants and contracts for regional businesses, and had a bit more success there. She helped Lockheed gain a big Navy helicopter contract which created jobs, for example. But she wasn't able to fulfill her promise to voters. The region lost manufacturing jobs and upstate unemployment rose during her time in the Senate.
posted by zarq at 12:25 PM on August 12, 2016 [26 favorites]

13th largest city in the US, but everybody acts like we don't exist. We're just happy to be noticed.

In fairness, that's only because Indianapolis absorbed a bunch of surrounding towns in 1970. A lot of what would be suburbs in most metro areas are part of the city proper in Indianapolis.

13th largest city, but only 34th largest Metropolitan Statistical Area.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:26 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Snake story...?

WTF is this?

Ohgods it rhymes; this is a poem.

*google* No, it's a song.

This is what he's wasting his rally time on?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:27 PM on August 12, 2016

RIDE THE SNAKE

The parallels with that sketch are amazing. They even mention Scott Baio! I can't wait for the next installment of "Donnie Trump's Fact Busters"!
posted by zombieflanders at 12:28 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Donald Trump says he does not care if a doctor tells you on November 1st that you're about to die, you still have to go vote.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:30 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

trump calling the media "the lowest form of humanity" makes me worry for the reporters on his rally beat
posted by murphy slaw at 12:30 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

13th largest city in the US, but everybody acts like we don't exist. We're just happy to be noticed.

Hey, we notice you at least once a year!

Does it rankle that Gary has that song? ;D
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:30 PM on August 12, 2016

NO SLEEP 'TIL NOVEMBER!!! YARGGGGH!!
posted by Sophie1 at 12:31 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

DJT: we need to win PA. Republicans have a tougher path. Not my fault. We're going to win FL, PA, OH. You have to vote even if you're dying. Supreme Court! Next president could have 5. If Hillary your secondamendment is gone. We don't win any more. We're going to win. You'll be sick of winning.

Exeunt.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:31 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, how's the re-re-re-re-reboot going?
posted by kirkaracha at 12:32 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

trump calling the media "the lowest form of humanity" makes me worry for the reporters on his rally beat

So much of what he's about is legitimizing violence by his supporters.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:32 PM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

This? Is this his GOTV? "Vote even if you are dying"
posted by Twain Device at 12:33 PM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

"The Snake" lyrics.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:33 PM on August 12, 2016

trump calling the media "the lowest form of humanity" makes me worry for the reporters on his rally beat

The Secret Service has already escorted at least one reporter out of a venue (after the rally -- they were protecting her, not ejecting her) because Trump was specifically pointing her out.
posted by Etrigan at 12:33 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

guys we really still need those [real] and [fake] tags
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 12:34 PM on August 12, 2016 [18 favorites]

I think he's suggesting that good people don't sleep, and true supporters of Trump shouldn't. Come on people, are you a true believer or a weak sleeper? Make some more coffee! (Or diet pills, whatever).
posted by bongo_x at 12:34 PM on August 12, 2016

So he, uh, really thinks that this whole "Hillary Clinton is a human being!" things is a winner for him, huh.
posted by kyrademon at 12:35 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's basically mocking him for being from a family of immigrants.

No. It's mocking him for being from a family of immigrants who changed their name to pretend not to be immigrants.

Then he went on to stir up nativist hate.

Making it beyond fair game.

The only reason to stop using it now is because there are about 100 more effective attacks per day.
posted by srboisvert at 12:36 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

The Secret Service has already escorted at least one reporter out of a venue (after the rally -- they were protecting her, not ejecting her) because Trump was specifically pointing her out.

Katy Tur
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:37 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Attacking somebody for coming from immigrants who changed their name to assimilate is also gross. Do not attack people based on their ancestry. Ever.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:38 PM on August 12, 2016 [23 favorites]

It'd be charming how he thinks government is about "winning" instead of "finding solutions that allow as many people as possible to thrive," except he has a nonzero chance of actually getting elected.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:38 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

No. It's mocking him for being from a family of immigrants who changed their name to pretend not to be immigrants.

...because of how shitty people in this country treat immigrants. We can be better.
posted by Roommate at 12:41 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

The thing that struck me in that fire hose of nonsense was the promise that he will keep jobs in America but "I wouldn't even care that much if companies left America because I would hit them with a 35% tariff."

He wouldn't even care that much? Because he can make money off of jobs leaving America?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:42 PM on August 12, 2016

Honestly there's about a million things to attack Trump with that aren't his name or ancestry.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Attack him for the hypocrisy, sure, but "ha ha Drumpf is a silly name" isn't a good look.
posted by Roommate at 12:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, there's a difference between "You came from immigrants too and it's hypocritical to go after immigrants when you yourself are the beneficiary of what would now be regarded as almost shockingly open borders" and "Whatever, kraut". The first one's an argument about his position. The latter is just a xenophobic attack.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:44 PM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

Here is my take on the "Founder of ISIS" nonsense. He spouts this, gets roundly criticized, takes it back and says he was being sarcastic, now he says he is "not that sarcastic." I think he is trying to figure out how dog-whistling works, he is just not very good at it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [21 favorites]

The Secret Service has already escorted at least one reporter out of a venue (after the rally -- they were protecting her, not ejecting her) because Trump was specifically pointing her out.

He's still doing it:

@ddale8: Trump doesn't just talk generally about the media as "the lowest form" of human - he points at the journalists in the room. It's dangerous.

posted by zombieflanders at 12:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

Making it beyond fair game.

Hi, immigrant with a funny name here: it's not. It's shitty ironic nativism originating from the mouth of a guy named "Oliver." And ironic nativism is just nativism with a funny hat.
posted by griphus at 12:47 PM on August 12, 2016 [22 favorites]

[Verbatim]. Trump: "We don't win anymore. You people [pointing to the crowd] don't win, that's for sure."
posted by argybarg at 12:47 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

TheWhiteSkull: That's "Obvious anagram Reince Priebus."

What's the obvious anagram? I foolishly threw his name in an Anagram Server and had too many options to select any best one (Pee Ruin Scribe and Brine Epicures are pretty good, but don't make much sense).


Snake story...?

WTF is this?

Ohgods it rhymes; this is a poem.

*google* No, it's a song.

He did this bit before back in January. Perhaps he had a request for that particular hit? (Still gotta ask: who feeds snakes milk and honey?)
posted by filthy light thief at 12:47 PM on August 12, 2016

[Verbatim]. Trump: "We don't win anymore. You people [pointing to the crowd] don't win, that's for sure."

"Vote for me, you jerks!" [Fake]
posted by infinitywaltz at 12:48 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

In fairness, that's only because Indianapolis absorbed a bunch of surrounding towns in 1970. A lot of what would be suburbs in most metro areas are part of the city proper in Indianapolis.

Indianapolis: technically more populous than Washington, Boston, or Atlanta.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:49 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Or, further adventures in negging.
posted by argybarg at 12:49 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

He wouldn't even care that much? Because he can make money off of jobs leaving America?

he has this weird schtick that massive import tarriffs will "make money" and this money will make it into the pockets of his suporter by some unspecified mechanism. when the most likely outcome of a massive trade war is depression, lower GDP, and lower federal tax revenue.

but no one asks about it because the first premise is so ridiculous that it's not even worth refuting.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:49 PM on August 12, 2016

If you want to make fun of names like you're a groddamned third grader, knock yourself out. Just quit telling the rest of us how morally okay it is.
posted by phearlez at 12:51 PM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

Happier thoughts: 538 currently shows AZ and GA as light blue, 53.4% and 53.0% for HRC, and she gets 359.5 electoral votes (that other 0.5 goes to [Google] Gary Johnson).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:51 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

TheWhiteSkull: That's "Obvious anagram Reince Priebus."

What's the obvious anagram? I foolishly threw his name in an Anagram Server and had too many options to select any best one (Pee Ruin Scribe and Brine Epicures are pretty good, but don't make much sense).

My favorite thing about the name Reince Priebus is that if you remove all the vowels you're left with "RNC PR BS"
posted by pocketfullofrye at 12:51 PM on August 12, 2016 [41 favorites]

phearlez before swine
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:52 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you remove all the vowels, he would die.
posted by The Gaffer at 12:53 PM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

This needs to be a bumper sticker:

Who Likes the Snake? Trump 2016

Best part is, people wouldn't be sure if you were with him or agin' him.
posted by msalt at 12:53 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Obvious anagram Reince Priebus."

If you get him to say his name backwards, he is forced to return to his home in the 5th dimension.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:54 PM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm pretty sure massive tariffs would just make everything in WalMart go up 40%. So great news! You are out of a job and now your kids shoes will cost almost double! But, I, Donald Trump don't care because I just put all that money in the US bank![fake] It is such a strange wording. But then he apparently sees his voters as losers anyway so there's that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2016

Obvious anagram Reince Priebus has probably had dinner with actual cannibal Shia LaBeouf.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

It turns out that the Trump Gold Card membership, introduced a few days ago for $200, is on sale for just $49.

Look, I'm not a Trump supporter by any means, but it's real hard to pass up a discount like that.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:00 PM on August 12, 2016 [20 favorites]

So basically we learned Donald Trump's exit plan is to blame the dying for not hanging on long enough to GOTV. Classy.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:01 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Hey, it's not like the dead haven't voted in American elections before.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:04 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was worried that his concession speech would be a call to arms to overturn the rigged election but now I'm looking forward to the frothing denunciation of his loser weakling supporters
posted by theodolite at 1:04 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

"people said i had no GOTV plan, but i guilt-tripped the terminally ill like nobody's business!"
posted by murphy slaw at 1:04 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

prize bull octorok's spouse has had to delete the Groupon app so many times.
posted by Etrigan at 1:05 PM on August 12, 2016 [21 favorites]

how did he manage to attract a large enough number of supporters to get where he is?

This isn't that hard to understand.

1. The real agenda of the Republican elites is tax cuts for the rich, social security cuts and Medicare cuts.

2. This agenda of the Republican elites is very unpopular so they have to sell it to their base by distracting the voters with racism (and other social issues), the so-called Southern Strategy.

3. As Lee Atwater pointed out, you can't use racism overtly and win the Presidency. You have to use covert dog whistles. This covert racism has been the Republican strategy since the 1960s exploiting the backlash from the passage of the Civil Rights Act.

4. While you can't win the general election with overt racism, as Donald Trump showed, you can win the primary when you are only talking to Republicans.

5. Among Republicans, overt racism beats covert racism. Trump's primary rivals were unable to respond to Trump's overt racist attacks since their own strategies depended on covert racism. They couldn't afford to offend their own racist base by attacking Trump. Again, among Republicans, overt racism beats covert racism.

6. However, as Trump is finding out, overt racism doesn't work in the general election. It only works in Republican primaries. Therefore he is going to lose bigly.

The answer to you question is pretty simple. Trump adopted a strategy of overt racism that appeals to the Republican base but doesn't appeal to the general public. The reason the Republican elites were powerless to stop Trump is that he was simply using their Southern Strategy more effectively among the Republican base. They couldn't denounce Trump without disavowing their own covert dog whistle racist strategy.
posted by JackFlash at 1:05 PM on August 12, 2016 [70 favorites]

If god were good, all politicians would.

Okay, I know this is probably intended as snark - or, I don't know, I can't tell anymore - but I think even if so it's dangerous snark given that the cynicism that enables monsters like Trump (not to mention exploited in general by the GOP every election season) is absolutely fueled by the low-information-voter truism that all government is bad and all politicians are corrupt. Personally, which I know is my business others might not care about, it bugs me a lot as I've known many very honest and hard working people who've held political office.
posted by aught at 1:06 PM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

Now Paladino is claiming that Khan Doesn’t Deserve Gold Star Title

We’ve got an un-indicted felon as his opponent and you’re talking about Khan, about him making a remark about this man,” Paladino, a former New York gubernatorial candidate, told interviewer Connell McShane on Imus in the Morning. “All right, I don’t care if he’s a Gold Star parent. He certainly doesn’t deserve that title, OK, if he’s as anti-American as he’s illustrated in his speeches and in his discussion. I mean, if he’s a member of the Muslim Brotherhood or supporting, you know, the ISIS-type of attitude against America, there’s no reason for Donald Trump to have to honor this man.”

It took me a second to figure out who the "un-indicted felon" is.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:07 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

What a repellent man.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [22 favorites]

aught, it was rapid fire snark. I mean no ill will to the hard working folk who give their lives to public service, please view it more as directed to capital-P Politicians.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:09 PM on August 12, 2016

What are "capital-P Politicians"?
posted by argybarg at 1:10 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I love it that Paladino is making accusations that Hillary Clinton is hiding some terrible news about her health because that dude looks like a reanimated corpse.
posted by palomar at 1:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

OK, if he’s as anti-American as he’s illustrated in his speeches and in his discussion

Quoting the Constitution is anti-American?

I mean, if he’s a member of the Muslim Brotherhood or supporting, you know, the ISIS-type of attitude against America

He's not.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ed Kilgore: The 5 Kinds of Republicans Who Are Defecting From the Party of Trump:

The political news this week is being dominated by reports of elephants breaking away from the herd: Republicans who are not supporting Donald Trump for president. They are most often being differentiated by exactly what they are saying or not saying: Some are simply refraining from opportunities to endorse their nominee; some are publicly refusing to endorse their nominee; a few are going to vote for the Libertarian or a last-minute conservative independent or write-in candidate; and a steadily increasing number are going over the brink to support Hillary Clinton, as one might expect with Election Day fast approaching. There’s no telling when the exodus will end; the latest Trump outrage, about “Second Amendment people” having some plans for HRC, is creating a fresh bout of heartburn for exasperated Republicans, and could send a new batch toward the exit ramp.

posted by palindromic at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

So basically we learned Donald Trump's exit plan is to blame the dying for not hanging on long enough to GOTV. Classy.

That AMERICAN PATRIOT dude looked like he might have some underlying heart problems, to be honest. Trump relies heavily on the angry and elderly. But has a major candidate ever made such a bald plea?

(As to whether Hillary actually might have relevant health problems, I seriously doubt it, but I wish I could read something about it that wasn't either dismissal or falsehood - just as with every issue Hillary presents.)
posted by Countess Elena at 1:15 PM on August 12, 2016

What are "capital-P Politicians"?


In my view, one who uses their power/position more for personal gain than the interests of the people they represent.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:15 PM on August 12, 2016

It turns out that the Trump Gold Card membership, introduced a few days ago for $200, is on sale for just $49.

You paid $49.00!? Psst. Mother Jones can get you a Donald J. Trump Gold Executive Card for $35.00


Of course I don't know for sure the "Gold Card Membership" and the "Personalized Gold Executive Membership" are exactly the same. Maybe the Gold Card entitles you to one free cocktail plus peanuts and with the Gold Executive Card you don't get peanuts.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:19 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

In my view, one who uses their power/position more for personal gain than the interests of the people they represent.

So, corrupt politicians then? If you dislike corrupt politicians, then say so. I don't see how that makes them "capital-P politicians" any more than inept or deceitful doctors are "capital-D doctors."
posted by argybarg at 1:20 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

because that dude looks like a reanimated corpse.

Defeating an 18 year old to get onto the Buffalo, NY, school board takes it out of a guy. [real]
posted by aught at 1:26 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

The liberal equivalent of The Wall would be Obama Day

Facts:

Obama Day occurs on every Friday.
No one has to work on Obama Day
Unless you're a 1%er. On Obama Day 1%ers have to work the cash registers and mop the floors and give back rubs. Skipping out on this increases your Death Tax.
On Obama Day lattes are free
Wall Street will pay for Obama Day and they'll love it.

You don't like Obama Day? Well now it's on Thursday too!
posted by ian1977 at 1:28 PM on August 12, 2016 [42 favorites]

Paladino should be given more air time. He does even more damage to the campaign than Trump himself. It is spectacular how self-unaware he is.
posted by yesster at 1:29 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

I believe the anagram of Reince Priebus that Charlie Pierce is alluding to is supposed to be Prince Erebus. Erebus was the personification of darkness in Greek mythology. It doesn't take much letter switching to get, either.
posted by Slothrop at 1:33 PM on August 12, 2016 [23 favorites]

Yes, JackFlash is on to something. Trump enjoyed the primary race, which went well for him, so he's just going to continue to run that race. He's said as much. This might explain his continuing to use "You Can't Always Get What you Want," which is the perfect song to play at your convention to taunt the sixteen people you just beat and all the people who voted for the other candidates, but nonsensical now because he hasn't won anything for a while and doesn't appear to be likely to win anything ever again. Really, he's just taunting himself. I can take that, but I really wish he'd see reason about those teeny tiny little charts because they just kill me and I don't like feeling sorry for him. "Take a look, see this, this is a disaster. See it?" "Uh... no? The camera is maybe 20 feet away but it's tiny, so I can't see what it is. Is it a locomotive?" Eventually the crowd is going to turn against him if he keeps asking them to look at those damn charts. He always prefaces with a rant about why would he spring for a big screen, he's not spending any money, she's spending all the money, and he's still winning, but what if somebody in the crowd sees a poll? How long can you fool them, Cheapie McGonnalose?
posted by Don Pepino at 1:34 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

TPM: Trump just now in Erie, PA: "We don't win anymore. You people [pointing to the crowd] don't win, that's for sure."
posted by palindromic at 1:36 PM on August 12, 2016

I believe the anagram of Reince Priebus that Charlie Pierce is alluding to is supposed to be Prince Erebus.

I think just removing the vowels is better. RNC PR BS.
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:37 PM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

How long can you fool them, Cheapie McGonnalose?

Evidence suggests forever.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:37 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

waitingtoderail - Well, it probably scans to more people, that's for sure! I never figured out what Pierce meant until someone else on Metafilter explained the Erebus reference, and then I had to look up Erebus...
posted by Slothrop at 1:38 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, I've always taken "obvious anagram" as a jab at Priebus's rather improbable name. I think you guys may be overthinking this?
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:44 PM on August 12, 2016 [24 favorites]

How long can you fool them, Cheapie McGonnalose?

Evidence suggests forever.

To be fair, that's the logic I use being in denial about dying someday. So far so good, but counter-evidence is mounting.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hillary's campaign emails hit all the right buttons, but are unintentionally funny:

One thing I’ve learned over the last few months is to take Donald Trump at his word. If he says he’s going to build a wall, we should understand that he'll try to do so if he wins this election.

Look, I understand the urgency, but... no. Please no. You cannot possibly actually take him at his word. Because I know Hillary's campaign is stocked by people with real brains, and they can tell that he doesn't actually plan to do even a third of the things he talks about - he just wants the cheers he gets for saying them, not the hard work of trying to get them done.

So we’ve set a hard goal of raising $1,000,000 online before midnight tonight to keep us on track for the month of August. It’s a big reach, but we’ve run the numbers, and we can get there if 16 folks in [CITY] step up to help.

I have no idea if this is the same in every large city. I suspect it is very very not true, because I have donated $5 exactly once (overwhelmed by a wave of patriotism during the DNC), which gets me on the mailing list and such.

You’re one of our most committed supporters.

I SURE HOPE NOT!
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:47 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

The Marist battleground polls today are too good to be true. No way. 9 in North Carolina? 13 in Virginia? Can this be?
posted by Justinian at 1:49 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Obvious anagram Reince Priebus" is the creation of Charles P. Pierce, who writes for Esquire. He makes up nicknames for people and is fun to read. In this article, he calls Trump "the human equivalent of a wolverine in a meat locker."
posted by Don Pepino at 1:54 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have no idea if this is the same in every large city.

Seems to be the same everywhere. I get emails from the Clinton campaign saying they need 9 more people in my town. Problem is: my town is not well-off, has around 700 people, and voted 75% for Romney. Getting 9 individuals here is theoretically possible but highly unlikely.

As for the other campaign email theory, I gave the smallest suggested amount recently: $19 in the hope future emails would give me a minimum lower. Just to see what the range is and to see how low I could get them to go over subsequent donations. But all the following emails still have me at $19, so their software guessed (correctly in my case) what my acceptable floor is.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:00 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

You guys, "Reince Priebus" contains two I's. "Prince Erebus" doesn't.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh, I've always taken "obvious anagram" as a jab at Priebus's rather improbable name. I think you guys may be overthinking this?

Yeah, the anagram joke is purely about the fact that his name looks like a Junior Jumble from a Denny's place mat. The fact that his name actually IS anagrammable to so many things is merely a welcome bonus.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2016

You know what Reince Priebus isn't an anagram for? That's right: Evan McMullin.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think the joke is just that his name looks like an anagram. Can we leave it at that?
posted by argybarg at 2:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

oh shit pretend I came up with this four days ago but I guess you could say that Evan has been...

[sunglasses on]

...McMullin' a presidential run.
posted by cortex at 2:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

I suppose I can check off the "Threaten to put a hit on someone" square on my Trump Bingo card.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:30 PM on August 9 [19 favorites +] [!]


You can check off the "Tells a Yo Mama Joke" one now, too.
posted by yhbc at 2:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

yo dude I heard Reince Priebus nags rams
posted by phunniemee at 2:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

"I'm considering an outsider run for the presidency, but only in Utah," said Tom mcmullingly.
posted by dw at 2:14 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

You're going to do it, aren't you? You're going to force me to admit that — despite my distaste for calling people by childish names, despite my begging people not to use "Drumpf" or "der Trumpenfuhrer" or whatnot — I cannot help but refer to the current chairman of the Republican National Committee as "Rinse Pubis."

There, I said it.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

All of a sudden I am hungry for one of those fast food breakfast sandwiches. There's a chain that serves them all day now, I think.
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know what Reince Priebus isn't an anagram for? That's right: Evan McMullin Hercules Mulligan!
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Looks like the Trump campaign is once again using poorly-photoshopped anti-Semitic propaganda from white supremacists, this time in the charts he's bringing on stage:

@nmeyersohn: David Duke in July | Donald Trump yesterday

Who wants to place bets on how long it takes Reince and Ryan send out their usual mealy-mouthed fuckery? One hour? Twelve? Ignore it completely?
posted by zombieflanders at 2:16 PM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

Not to be confused with Evan McMillinery, who makes Trump's hats.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 2:19 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

You know what Reince Priebus isn't an anagram for? That's right: Evan McMullin Hercules Mulligan!

"Reince Priebus: an ineffective leader not doing much of anything" doesn't have quite the same ring to it as "Hercules Mulligan: a tailor spying on the British government" though.
posted by zachlipton at 2:19 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Updated Trump Bingo card with Yo Mama Joke checked off.

It's looking like I didn't make that bottom row implausible enough, because I expect him to hit both of those in the next few weeks.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:20 PM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

Reince Priebus contains two i's... Oops! I type corrected...
posted by Slothrop at 2:21 PM on August 12, 2016

Ursine Crib Pee
Unprecise Brie
Brunei Recipes
Be Precise Ruin
posted by hydrophonic at 2:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I figured it out: Reince Priebus is

Crepes I be ruin [ing]

He's bad at French cooking yall
posted by Existential Dread at 2:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Looks like the Trump campaign is once again using poorly-photoshopped anti-Semitic propaganda from white supremacists,

Looks like the Trump campaign at least had the good sense to fix the "sheriff star" this time.
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:23 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

David Duke rates higher than Donald Trump with black voters

(In Louisiana, where Trump gets about 2% of African American voters and Duke apparently gets 14%, somehow).
posted by thefoxgod at 2:23 PM on August 12, 2016

Who wants to place bets on how long it takes Reince and Ryan send out their usual mealy-mouthed fuckery? One hour? Twelve? Ignore it completely?

I hope they get nailed for this. As in, I hope that some news group finds out whose job it was to photoshop out the star of David and then demands to know what that staffer was thinking. I hope it matters.

Unfortunately, to go waaaaaay back upthread to the notion that the primary objection with Trump is his competence, not his racism, I kind of suspect that this won’t go anywhere.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:24 PM on August 12, 2016

OH wait! I Googled for the Metafilter mention, which was explained as "I, Prince Erebus." I have no idea if that's what Pierce intends, though. Googling didn't turn up any hits for Pierce spelling it out that way.
posted by Slothrop at 2:26 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's just straight up worse than Prince Erebus I
posted by aubilenon at 2:28 PM on August 12, 2016

David Duke in July | Donald Trump yesterday

Disgusting. Absolutely ridiculous.
posted by cashman at 2:29 PM on August 12, 2016

David Duke in July | Donald Trump yesterday

To be fair to Trump, Duke ripped that design off of Hitler's great-grandclone, who is still learning Photoshop.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 2:32 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope the Duke/Trump image rip off gets traction. There is absolutely no denying this one with Sheriff Star bullshit.
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's obviously an anagram for Spiro Agnew
posted by ian1977 at 2:34 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Looks like the Trump campaign at least had the good sense to fix the "sheriff star" this time.

There's really no hedging possible this time around. It's an Israeli flag and doesn't even look like a sheriff's star.

Oddly enough, I actually have less of a problem with this than the first image, which contained a blatantly antisemitic stereotype. Let him attack Israel all he wants, lose the right wing Orthodox Jewish vote and piss off the Republican base.
posted by zarq at 2:35 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's obviously an anagram for Spiro Agnew

I performed in The Complete History of America (Abridged) so I know of what you speak.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:36 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Note they fixed the seal in the Trump version. There's no star.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:37 PM on August 12, 2016

Let him attack Israel all he wants, lose the right wing Orthodox Jewish vote and piss off the Republican base.

Not to mention Sheldon Adelson.
posted by LionIndex at 2:38 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

The absence of the star in the Trump version demonstrates that they know it's anti-Semitic propaganda and photoshopped it to avoid the accusations.
posted by stolyarova at 2:39 PM on August 12, 2016 [12 favorites]

Nondenominational Plain Star™
posted by griphus at 2:39 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

hey cool guess who googled what 'nondenominational' actually means after posting that
posted by griphus at 2:40 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Exactly. The fact that they photoshopped out the Israeli flag shows that they deliberately re-used anti-semitic propaganda and tried to hide that fact.
posted by Justinian at 2:41 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

hey cool guess who googled what 'nondenominational' actuall means after posting that

Yeah, it's a Christian-centric term. :)
posted by zarq at 2:41 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is there something we can hang a new thread on? My iPad is getting cranky.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:42 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

That David Duke poster is some next-level conspiracy shit, though. What, exactly, is it implying? That ZOG-Hillary is so corrupt that she can be bribed to approve weapons shipments to Arab and Muslim countries, despite her ZOGgery? It makes more sense in the bowdlerized Trump version! Sometimes I am thankful indeed for the infinite mercy that I cannot comprehend the conspiracist mind.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Exactly. The fact that they photoshopped out the Israeli flag shows that they deliberately re-used anti-semitic propaganda and tried to hide that fact.

There could also be an "original" that Duke photoshopped the Star on, and which Trump grabbed.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

You guys, "Reince Priebus" contains two I's. "Prince Erebus" doesn't.

Ah, but what if it spells out "I, Prince Erebus?" Kind of like a douchier Tom Marvolo Riddle.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is there something we can hang a new thread on? My iPad is getting cranky.

A thread about Evan McMullin would be helpful.
posted by mazola at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

yeah, somebody craft a new FPP based on the latest Evan McMullin news
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

There was apparently a version floating around from earlier in the year without the star, so it's possible the star was edited into Duke's version rather than taken out of Trumps.
posted by tavella at 2:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

so is there some weird sexual innuendo in the Trump yo mama sally or am I just adding an unnecessary level of grossness to it
posted by angrycat at 2:44 PM on August 12, 2016

Any news on how today's 'Come to Jesus' meeting between Trump's people and the RNC went? Is that where the "Trump wants 50 states worth of coverage" thing came from?
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:45 PM on August 12, 2016

It's an Israeli flag and doesn't even look like a sheriff's star.

Right. Also: the first Star of David Meme really didn't look like a sheriff star either, because sheriff stars always have little circles on the ends of the points. So it was always bullshit.
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

There was apparently a version floating around from earlier in the year without the star, so it's possible the star was edited into Duke's version rather than taken out of Trumps.

Recursive racism.
posted by Justinian at 2:46 PM on August 12, 2016

I think it was definitely closer to a Counterstrike-youth-type "YOUR MOM" joke than a "Yo mama" joke, so yeah, gross.
posted by stolyarova at 2:46 PM on August 12, 2016

Sally Forth? Leave her out of this
posted by ian1977 at 2:46 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

There was apparently a version floating around from earlier in the year without the star, so it's possible the star was edited into Duke's version rather than taken out of Trumps.

Aha, thank you. That indeed does make a smidge more sense.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:46 PM on August 12, 2016

"You know who else supports me? YOUR MOM."

Like that.
posted by stolyarova at 2:46 PM on August 12, 2016

There could also be an "original" that Duke photoshopped the Star on, and which Trump grabbed.

I have no idea of the provenance and timeline, but as tavella says, there's an image on a conspiracy-theorist (UFO / global secret cabal division) site called 'Before It's News' posted in January with the seal and not the Israeli flag. For every nasty meme there is a nastier /pol/ version of it.
posted by holgate at 2:47 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

What's almost as bad is that the Duke tweet he takes it from uses the words "dindu nuffin," a repulsive new ethnic slur that mocks black people's pleas of innocence. Trump doesn't repeat that, but nonetheless the words were just farted into public discourse.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:48 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

You know who supports me? This industrial strength zapp brannigan girdle that's who.
posted by ian1977 at 2:48 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

RuPaul just gave the most politically pragmatic endorsement of Hillary Clinton

Do you want a pompous braggart who doesn't know anything about diplomacy? Or do you want a badass bitch who knows how to get shit done? That's really the question.

RuPaul is, as in so many other cases, a delight.
posted by stolyarova at 2:52 PM on August 12, 2016 [52 favorites]

"You know who else supports me? YOUR MOM."

I thought it was a garbled version of "Yer mother, Trebeck."
posted by happyroach at 2:54 PM on August 12, 2016

Trump Live (Altoona, PA)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:56 PM on August 12, 2016

do you want a badass bitch who knows how to get shit done?

BGSD
posted by cashman at 2:58 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Reince Priebus
* Epic Rube Siren
* Fierce Penis Rub

Either one works for me.
posted by Fezboy! at 2:59 PM on August 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

Trump Live
More... Beethoven.
More >hurk!< charts...
posted by Don Pepino at 3:11 PM on August 12, 2016

Wait. Do the stars stand for 10 or 11 people? Priebus said both now.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:15 PM on August 12, 2016

The Night That Obama and Hillary Founded ISIS
posted by neroli at 3:16 PM on August 12, 2016 [19 favorites]

The Night That Obama and Hillary Founded ISIS

I found that strangely touching.
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wait wait wait up a sec. Did the Trump campaign just steal intellectual property from David Duke? Or did David Duke rip it off from Stormfront and Trump's imbecile staffer stole it from Stormfront directly? Where did the POS originate? What kind of insane idiocy is it that they didn't just remake the stupid thing so it wouldn't be immediately recognizable? Which racist made the thing, and how many times has it been stolen by new racists? Or, to rephrase the question, pounded in the butt by David Duke's plagiarized chart of Stormfront's plagiarized chart of some chart some troubled 13-year-old kid made for his middle school chapter of the junior Klansmen.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:23 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

DJT: We're not going to let your jobs go. Hillary will raise taxes. We'll lower them. I have charts.

Brings up Rep. Bill (Chester?)

Bill: Central and Western PA will go Trump.

DJT: My kids went to school here. We'll have turnout. Look out for voter fraud. We had 10,000 at Eirie. NAFTA is a disaster. Hillary will up taxes, regulations.

Brings up Obvious Anagram.

DJT: Hes done a great job. We work well together. Blames press.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:25 PM on August 12, 2016

it's a regular Ouroboros of racist assholes
posted by murphy slaw at 3:26 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Speaking of ouroborosii, I once saw Evan McMullin eating an Egg McMuffin. That was some real high-octane nightmare fuel.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:31 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

So Trump tried to walk back the Founder comments by saying he was sarcastic. But at the rally he walked back his walkback and said he wasn't actually that sarcastic. What the fuck?
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

DJT: I was sarcastic calling Obama Founder of ISIS.

FEed glitches

DJT: Obama says ISIL to divide us. From 1835 to now, having hard time. Press is dishonest. They swon't how overflow crowd.

Brings up Mike McClanahan, Chair of McClanahan Corp

MM: Were oldest family foundry. We supprt Trump.

Brings up George (McClanahan?)

GM: We won't survive four more years of Obama.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:34 PM on August 12, 2016

My wife makes these breakfast muffins of a sort that have egg in them amongst other things. As of today, we've taken to calling them McMullens.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:34 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

So Trump tried to walk back the Founder comments by saying he was sarcastic. But at the rally he walked back his walkback and said he wasn't actually that sarcastic. What the fuck?

He did that earlier today as well. He's a terrible person who has surrounded himself with terrible people.
posted by cashman at 3:34 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

TPM: Trump just now in Erie, PA: "We don't win anymore. You people [pointing to the crowd] don't win, that's for sure."

Oh em gee. Yes, please keep going down this rhetorical road. If there's something people love to hear at a political rally, it's that they're good for nothing losers.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:35 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

DJT: Obama says ISIL to divide us.

Haha what
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:36 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Has anybody lied as much as Hillary Clinton?"

I know of one fella, whose name rhymes with 'Ponald Bump'.
posted by spinifex23 at 3:37 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

GM: We won't survive four more years of Obama.

Well have I got some good news for you!
posted by PenDevil at 3:38 PM on August 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

If there's something people love to hear at a political rally, it's that they're good for nothing losers.

At least he's finally shooting straight with them - he definitely actually believes they're losers.
posted by mordax at 3:39 PM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

what's the deal with 1835??
posted by murphy slaw at 3:39 PM on August 12, 2016

DJT: I toured the McClanahan plant. Very clean. The devaluation of the currencies. They take away your coal. Hillary said she was only kidding about taking away mine jobs. Her getting out of trouble with emails is her biggest achievement. She short-circuited. Press ignored it. If I said it it'd be news. I was sarcastic when I said Obama was founder. Press had panels. A man said it's the single greatest pile on of a candidate.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:40 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Western PA will go Trump.
Not if I have anything to do with it, asshole.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:40 PM on August 12, 2016 [17 favorites]

DJT: I spent the least and came in first.

Protestor interrupts

DjT: go home to mommy. Her mother is voting for Trump.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:42 PM on August 12, 2016

DJT: We;re going to bring our jobs back. Friend of mine builds massive plants. We're building plants in I Mexico. 8th eoner of the world. He wants to build here. We can't let our companies go. Because of NAFTA, which Bill Clinton signed. They not going to be able to leave because of strong border. We're going to open our mines. Make America Great again.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:46 PM on August 12, 2016

The yo mama thing is apparently something he's going to stick with? Is there anybody who finds that appealing in a Presidential candidate who isn't also a channer?
posted by zachlipton at 3:48 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Because of NAFTA, which was signed by Bill Clinton, with a wife that won't... she won't be able to do a thing about it." Right, because she's a wife. Gotcha. Wordsmith.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:48 PM on August 12, 2016

Sorry if I've missed it, but -- can someone explain to me how alleged Hillary campaign donations from a bunch of largely Israel-hating countries in the Middle East makes her a part of the Zionist conspiracy...? I am stuck on the internal consistency of this particular work of anti-Semitism.
posted by Andrhia at 3:49 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've never understood why, if Mexico the Eighth wonder of the World, and so very many people are opening up plants down there, do we still need to build a wall to presumably keep out the Mexicans. I mean, since America is such a loser shit hole and all.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:50 PM on August 12, 2016 [18 favorites]

I wonder if Bad Lip Reading or some clever video editor will try to make it look like he's saying something coherent
posted by aubilenon at 3:50 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

i didn't realize that companies had to go through border checkpoints when they expand outside of the country. that must take for fuckin' ever.
posted by murphy slaw at 3:51 PM on August 12, 2016

(ipad choked)

DJT: Supreme Court. I ran against seventeen people and got more votes than anyone. We're bringing in new people. Repub primaries up, Dems down. Make sure other people don't vote five times. Is everyone here voting? The only way we won't win is if cheating goes on. I looked all over and they're very concerned about it. We have to call up law enforcement. The only way they can win is if in other sections of the state they cheat. Vote and go around and watch other polling places. Shocking you don't have Voter ID.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:52 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

So now Trump says he is going to feel very, very foolish if he doesn't win. I thought he was planning on going on vacation? Is he still going to go on vacation but feel like a fool while doing so? Kind of a waste of a good vacation.

I wonder if his bags will already be packed on Election night.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:53 PM on August 12, 2016

This is ... verbatim? Is he having a stroke?
posted by Countess Elena at 3:54 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump is saying the NSA has Clinton's emails.
posted by waitingtoderail at 3:54 PM on August 12, 2016

"Hillary, ai-yi-yi."
posted by Don Pepino at 3:54 PM on August 12, 2016

DJT: I think we're doing really well, they're not giving us the credit. We're doing well in Michigan. Four more years of Obama, but worse. Total dishonesty. 33,000 emails and it's OK. They say NSA has those emails. If they have the emails, should they give them? I don't know what the law is. I don't think they try too hard.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:54 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Western PA will go Trump.
Not if I have anything to do with it, asshole.

Pittsburgh is in Western PA, so I think it’s safe...
posted by Going To Maine at 3:55 PM on August 12, 2016

I know it's been mentioned before, but seeing all of these transcripts in a row - His speeches do indeed seem like they are generated Markov chains, in a very uncanny way.... It's like his internal OS is Losethos.
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:55 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

NSA has the e-mails, yepper. Hey, does IRS have the tax returns?
posted by Don Pepino at 3:56 PM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

That stuff about calling up the police and sheriff because the only way Trump loses PA will be if cheating is going on-- that's some incendiary stuff. I wonder if he is going to repeat that bit in every speech, in every state he visits from now until November.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:57 PM on August 12, 2016 [15 favorites]

Not only the cops and the sheriffs and the police chiefs, but Trump's own fans should all turn out to watch the polls. That's not a terrifying idea at all.
posted by Don Pepino at 3:58 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

We have to call up law enforcement. Vote and go around and watch other polling places.

In other words, Trump is calling on his supporters to intimidate other voters.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 3:58 PM on August 12, 2016 [50 favorites]

is it just me or has he gotten significanly more incoherent since the RNC?
posted by murphy slaw at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

It’s like his internal OS is Losethos.

Holy shoot. Well, now I’m down a rabbit hole.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:01 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

DJT: We need more Border Agents. They endorsed us. Sheriff Joe Arpaio(?) knows what's good. He endorsed me. A lot of other people. Has anybody heard the snake? Written by Al Wilson. We need a strong border. Our military is depleted, problems with vets. End common core. Repeal and replace Obamacare. Save our 2nd Amendment. NRA endorsed me. San Bernadino, Paris, Orlando. Paris has some of the toughest gun laws in the world. These thugs, animals, walk into various places and boom, boom boom. Killed and wounded still in the hospital. If we had people in that room with a gun... when they see what's going to happen when the bullets fly in the other direction. If they knew people had guns they'd take a pass. We have people coming in, law enforcement says there's no way to vet them. Hillary wants %550 more. People heard me read the snake. We spent all this money in the Middle East have nothing to show for it. I read this and put it in a poem. Look at Paris. I have a friend who won't go there anymore. How stupid we are. Look at what one person did, who's father was sitting behind Hillary with a smile.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:02 PM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Pittsburgh is in Western PA, so I think it’s safe...

lol I am in Pittsburgh so I am aware. You don't have go too far outside the city limits to reach Trumpland, though. Allegheny Co is safe. Butler Co not so much. But god this fucking guy wouldn't sit down and have dinner with a Yinzer if his life depended on it. He knows nothing about us, our city or our state.

Also I'm beginning to think he's never voted (though I know he has because there's records of it) because the way he describes voting is... not how it works?
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:02 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

"France is no longer France." I thought he'd retired that one, but nope, here it is.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:03 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

NSA has the e-mails, yepper. Hey, does IRS have the tax returns?

Heh.

By the way the Trump response to Clinton turning over her Tax return and demanding Trump turn over his was to demand that she turn over all her emails and transcripts of her "secret" Wall Street speeches, records from Benghazi, and some other bullshit.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on August 12, 2016

Sorry if I've missed it, but -- can someone explain to me how alleged Hillary campaign donations from a bunch of largely Israel-hating countries in the Middle East makes her a part of the Zionist conspiracy...? I am stuck on the internal consistency of this particular work of anti-Semitism.

David Duke believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are non-fiction and that the American government, banks and media are controlled by "Jewish supremacists."

There is no logic here. It's the KKK.
posted by zarq at 4:04 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Could we please mind the real and fake tags? This is getting very difficult to parse.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 4:05 PM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump just said that the only way he will lose PA "and I mean this 100%" is if in certain sections of the state "they cheat".

So he's going all-in on election fraud costing him the election. With added racism since we all know what he means by "certain sections".
posted by Justinian at 4:06 PM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

these speech transcripts sound like between-verse mutterings from Stinky Wizzleteats

"The sheriff endorsed me...your mother endorsed me! Have you heard about the snake? Thirty-three thousand emails! Why won't they read them to the snake!?"

[fake]
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:06 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is dangerous.
posted by cashman at 4:07 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Much to catch up with, but first let me tell you that as a 3/8-German-on-my-father's side with a last name that RHYMES WITH HITLER that nobody in my family ever changed (and whose father volunteered for the Marines for WWII and was sent from Maryland to California to fight the Japs in the Pacific because somebody didn't trust him to fight the Germans), that I believe that Dishonest Donald's family changing their name from Drumpf to the no-known-ethnicity Trump and then Deceitful Donnie putting in his first book the LIE that his family came from Sweden, I SAY THE DRUMPF NAME ISSUE IS MORE THAN FAIR GAME, IT'S CENTRAL TO HIS LACK OF HONESTY/SCRUPLES/SHAME. I bought the HBO "MAKE DONALD DRUMPF AGAIN" and I will proudly wear it after he loses the election and goes back to smaller-scale lying, cheating and stealing and try to stay out of jail. (Because I don't want to get into any fights over it until I have stocked up on pepper spray)
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:07 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Man I forgot to hit refresh before posting that about the cheating and there were like 20 comments talking about it ;x
posted by Justinian at 4:07 PM on August 12, 2016

"I wanna get the hell out of here, I wanna go home."
posted by Don Pepino at 4:07 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump, real quote: "We're going to go quickly, because I want to get the hell out of here. I want to go home."
posted by murphy slaw at 4:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

His internal pollster must have the worst fucking job in the world. "Sir, you're down ten in Pennsylvania. You're plunging precipitously with college-educated female voters." "Nonsense! Your mom is voting for me!"
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

I wanna go home.

Awwww, what's the matter, baby? You tired? Wanna go beddy-bye?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 4:10 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

is it just me or has he gotten significanly more incoherent since the RNC?

Amphetamines, you think?
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:10 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

I get it now. Donald Trump is Fox News ignorance made flesh.
posted by valkane at 4:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Amphetamines, you think?

The dark drink of impending failure, more like. Also the draught of regret.
posted by dis_integration at 4:12 PM on August 12, 2016

I wanna get the hell out of here, I wanna go home."

Whoa. That is unbelievable. I have to wonder how the anti-PC crowd feel after being told by their candidate he wants to get the hell out of their state and go home like he is tired and disgusted.

And he mocks Hillary for going to back to her hotel to sleep after she speaks?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Me: But god this fucking guy wouldn't sit down and have dinner with a Yinzer if his life depended on it. [real]

DJT: I wanna get the hell out of here, I wanna go home. [real]


Jesus, do you think he heard me?
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

With added racism since we all know what he means by "certain sections".

I actually don’t know this. I understand the notion that Trump calling out the urban black populace, but I don’t think he’s that deft. Nixon and Reagan spoke in codes - Trump is an idiot who says things that are vague because he has lost the vocabulary needed to be specific.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

This incoherence combined with forgetting the names of common things (train) is genuinely concerning.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

He reads The Snake

DJT: Be careful folks. People we put all over the country we don't know where they're being put. This could replace the story of the Trojan horse. I want to go home, but I'm only leaving if you promise to vote November 8th.

(I think he has charts, but I can't see the stream now)

DJT: US home ownership rate, lowest in 15 years. Great job Obama. Here's the snake. Syrian refugees invited into the US. Hillary wants 550% more. Not going to happen. Lots of immigrants coming in from rough places. I'm raising a lot of money for the Republicans. Think of this, NeverTrump, Supreme Court Justices. You have a country that's going to be destroyed, probably forever. I'm going to say NeverThem. I feel a little foolish. They're not giving Hillary money for their health. Her donors won't allow her to renegotiate trade deals. I used to be a donor. Hillary has millions of Hedge Fund dollars. $48,500,000. Here's total national debt. It's doubled under Obama. Our roads are a mess.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:14 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

They gotta make him eat those cookies that Romney dissed. Remember he went to that picnic and crapped all over the cookies and then they turned out to be from, wherever, Primanti Brothers or somewhere beloved by everyone in PA? The Cookies of Doooooom!
posted by Don Pepino at 4:15 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

@DanielDale: Donald Trump: If Hillary Clinton gets to pick SCOTUS justices, America will be destroyed for at least 75 years but “probably forever.”
posted by Going To Maine at 4:16 PM on August 12, 2016

argybarg upthread: "He's going to unleash his most terrifying language of control and domination yet in the next 24-48 hours."

The tactic seems to be one of getting Trumpers to vote early (and/or absentee) and then patrolling other parts of the state where Those People vote. PA's governor is a Dem, and it will need strong governors and secretaries of state and local election board officials to make clear that intimidation will be treated as the crime it is, but that may just feed the conspiracy theorists.
posted by holgate at 4:16 PM on August 12, 2016

Trump has brought us something we haven't seen in at least 30 years: a cool cover on Time magazine
posted by murphy slaw at 4:17 PM on August 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

"...a one point two billion dollar- BILLION! -dollar cost overrun."
posted by Don Pepino at 4:18 PM on August 12, 2016

Also @DanielDale: I will never, ever pretend to understand what Trump is thinking, but he seems like a candidate entering the grief process already.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:18 PM on August 12, 2016 [12 favorites]

DJT: I have a great hotel. I'm going to get to Pennsylvania one way or another. (hotel is on Penn. Ave.) We're wasting 1.2 billion on hospitals(?). You gotta get out and vote. You're going to be so proud of your country. I'm a messenger for common sense. We don't win anymore. We're going to start winning again. We're going to win with our military against ISIS, we're going to take care of our vets. We're going to build a wall, and Mexico will pay. Defend the second amendment. We're going to win so much. The people in this room will call congress and say they can't stand winning this much. I'm going to say I want to win much more. America first. Make america great again.

Exeunt.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:18 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have to wonder if his crowds are getting anything out of him reading The Snake lyrics to them? Why has he added this bit and what does he think it accomplishes? Such a weird thing to start doing.

So he added charts which are too small to see and now he added recitation of song lyrics. Do you think this is his hopeless staff's attempt to polish up his speaking style? Or is this all Trump. Maybe he is bored and just wanted to do something different.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:18 PM on August 12, 2016

I'm having cognitive dissonance thinking about the debates. Because I can't imagine Trump will agree to a 90 minute one-on-one debate with multiple 15 minute free-debate portions with someone as accomplished as Hillary Clinton. He can't agree to that, can he? He'll look like the oafish, racist, idiotic buffoon that he is. But on the other hand I can't imagine he could refuse to debate. Right? It's impossible.

This is going to be great.
posted by Justinian at 4:20 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Every time someone mentions Trump reading “The Snake” I keep imagining him yelling, “Turn down for what!”
posted by Going To Maine at 4:21 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

Princeton Election Consortium good news: snapshot now of Electoral College results is Clinton 342, Trump 196. Bad news: Senate snapshot still stuck at 50-50.

Also, we so need a new thread.
posted by bearwife at 4:21 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think Reince P. must have persuaded him to bring in those foundry guys. That was the only edging-up-to-sane part of the thing. Maybe they were supposed to talk for most of it but Donald started kicking them in the ankles from behind the podium. "C'mon, fellers, hurry it up. Charts to show, lyrics to read, insurrections to spark."
posted by Don Pepino at 4:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

The people in this room will call congress and say they can't stand winning this much

Why does he bother repeating this stupid line? In the history of mankind has anyone ever complained of winning too much? Yet it has been part of his patter since day one. I guess he thinks it is witty.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

You can't make up some headlines -- politico.com: Trump backs off on his backpedal on Obama terror claim.
posted by bearwife at 4:25 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

But on the other hand I can't imagine he could refuse to debate. Right? It's impossible.

He's going to put some bullshit conditions on the debate and moderators, then declare victory when no one agrees to them and he can skip the debates.
posted by PenDevil at 4:25 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

And regarding voter fraud (and I've told this story here before), 44 years ago, when Nixon was running for reelection and I was not yet old enough to vote, my long-time Republican Womens Group Vice-President mother 'volunteered me' to work at a GOP phone bank. While I was there, I was noticed as "a nice young man with his own car" and given an offer to do a 'special task'... to go to nursing homes and "help" (wink wink) the residents fill out absentee ballots. They told me the nursing home owners had agreed to let US (not them) in to "work with" ALL the residents (not just the ones registered Republican). It was such a totally blatant effort at voter fraud (one step away from "dead people voting") that I had to awkwardly back away... far away. And the biggest reason I didn't scream bloody murder was to avoid getting my mother involved. To this day, I wonder if there really would be more Republican voters than Democrats over 65, if you excluded the semi-conscious ones having someone "voting for them". It was the planting of the seed of my belief that the Republican Party is not a political party but a criminal enterprise (and, yes, 44 years later, Dishonest Donnie Trump is their PERFECT candidate). And every time since that I've heard a Republican yell "VOTER FRAUD", I want to yell back "PROJECTION!!!"
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:25 PM on August 12, 2016 [40 favorites]

If he did "The Jackal" instead he might get my vote.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:26 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

@DanielDale: Donald Trump: If Hillary Clinton gets to pick SCOTUS justices, America will be destroyed for at least 75 years but “probably forever.”

Well, you convinced me, Donnie; I'm voting for Hillary because I want YOUR version of America burned to the ground.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:27 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

So I think we know exactly how many hours and miles of travel make little Donny want to go home for his warm milk and blankie.
posted by holgate at 4:27 PM on August 12, 2016

He'll agree to debate when Clinton turns over the missing emails.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:28 PM on August 12, 2016

Donald Trump, real quote: "We're going to go quickly, because I want to get the hell out of here. I want to go home."

Direct link to quote in rally.
posted by Talez at 4:30 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Donald Trump on his new Washington DC hotel: "I'm going to get to Pennsylvania Avenue on way or the other, I don't care."

Wait. Is he still talking? I thought he was done.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:31 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have to wonder if his crowds are getting anything out of him reading The Snake lyrics to them? Why has he added this bit and what does he think it accomplishes? Such a weird thing to start doing.

Replace every instance of "the snake" with "immigrants" and reread it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:31 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

He'll agree to debate when Clinton turns over the missing emails.

Wait, he actually said this?
posted by cashman at 4:31 PM on August 12, 2016

The people in this room will call congress and say they can't stand winning this much

Why does he bother repeating this stupid line? In the history of mankind has anyone ever complained of winning too much? Yet it has been part of his patter since day one. I guess he thinks it is witty.

Wasn't there an SNL skit like 15 years ago where Chris Kattan was Antonio Banderas, and every time he unbuttoned a shirt button, his friend would say Nooooo you mustn't! It is toooooo sexy! It is toooooo sexy! You must stop!

I think of that every time.
posted by mochapickle at 4:31 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

This latest week just made throw another $5 to Hillary. trump's barely lampshaded voter intimidation calls were what pushed me to do it. I'm also now leaning heavily towards volunteering for the Clinton campaign.
posted by codacorolla at 4:34 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

You guys, "Reince Priebus" contains two I's. "Prince Erebus" doesn't.

Well, I have always imagined Prince Erebus with an eyepatch, so this seems legit.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:35 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

He'd better have a suite in his new Washington D.C. hotel, because it's otherwise going to be very empty.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:38 PM on August 12, 2016

> "Trump just said that the only way he will lose PA 'and I mean this 100%' is if in certain sections of the state 'they cheat'."

I really hope democracy in the U.S. survives this asshole.
posted by kyrademon at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Katrina Pierson is at it again. She was on MSNBC this afternoon and asked about the "sarcasm."

You can’t sit there and say you think Donald Trump was actually talking about shooting someone on Fifth Avenue or actually telling Russia to go hack someone,” she snapped. Pierson herself said in July regarding that email comment, “It wasn’t really a joke, per se. It was more tongue-in-cheek.”

“As someone who wants to be leader of the free world, should he be making sarcastic comments about issues that are this serious?” Welker asked. “Terrorism, Russia hacking another candidate for president. Is that responsible?”

After deflecting for a while on a topic unrelated to Welker’s question, Pierson said, “Of course he should be joking and having fun!”

He should be joking and having fun because that is what Americans want in a President-- a fun jokester!

He'll agree to debate when Clinton turns over the missing emails.

Wait, he actually said this?

No. That was my prediction. He said that about his Tax Returns but I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the same excuse.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

This incoherence combined with forgetting the names of common things (train) is genuinely concerning.

You try running a presidential campaign when you don't sleep anymore.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:39 PM on August 12, 2016

whose father volunteered for the Marines for WWII and was sent from Maryland to California to fight the J*ps in the Pacific because somebody didn't trust him to fight the Germans

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I understand that at the time, people use that slur, but can we not do that here in this time? People of Japanese descent are likely reading this thread.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:40 PM on August 12, 2016 [24 favorites]

You guys, "Reince Priebus" contains two I's. “Prince Erebus” doesn't.

Prince Erebus I
posted by Going To Maine at 4:40 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's hard to imagine anyone being rallied and energized by a speech like that. It's like Trump's too lazy to even throw the red meat, or maybe he enjoys denying people and stringing them along. The novelty of being openly hateful must go a long way with those crowds, because I don't know how they can stand all the boring crazy nonsense that comes from Trump's mouth.
posted by nom de poop at 4:41 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump gets excited about three things in this campaign:

1) Tweeting insults;
2) Calling in to talk shows;
3) Working the crowd at rallies.

The rest just bores him. And #3, he's become more like a Borscht-belt comic. His speech patterns are even more comical, he's slinging insults and asides. Whether he stays focused enough to build a coherent argument, who cares as long as he gets that love that stand-up comics get.

Of course no one can build anything but a disastrous political campaign out of those three elements, but what does he care. Like he says, he can go home to a very, very nice retirement.
posted by argybarg at 4:41 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

But on the other hand I can't imagine he could refuse to debate. Right? It's impossible.

If DJT does weasel out of debating, I hope HRC gets to take questions in a town hall format during that time slot. I like that format better than the different people interrupting and yelling approach.

Oh, but, if HRC does a town hall, DJT will live tweet it in his own peculiar style, and might get some upvotes from that.
posted by puddledork at 4:43 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

The rest just bores him. And #3, he's become more like a Borscht-belt comic.

"Go to the matinee, he's too tired for the evening show."
posted by holgate at 4:47 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

In the history of mankind has anyone ever complained of winning too much?

This is someone who asked three times in one meeting why we can't use nuclear weapons to deal with international conflicts. I think he might honestly believe that the basic problem with America is that we don't like winning enough.
posted by john hadron collider at 4:49 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh man. Big news on the money front. According to Open Secrets, Trump's campaign has $37 million on hand up from the $20 million he had in June. But the Trump campaign claims they raised $80 million. So what did they spend $63 million on? Huffington Post Political Blog is trying to figure out where the money went. Nothing on ads, very little on GOTV. There is one possibility-- that he paid back that $50 million "loan" he made to himself. He said he was going to forgive the loan but never filed the paperwork.

People are going to be all over this money trail.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:50 PM on August 12, 2016 [36 favorites]

Trump's Steves

the classiest steakhouse
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:55 PM on August 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

There is one possibility-- that he paid back that $50 million "loan" he made to himself. He said he was going to forgive the loan but never filed the paperwork.

Except that Trump did forgive those loans roughly a month after he said he would.

It's possible that there are other loans or other shenanigans going on, but those particular loans aren't where to look for them.
posted by zachlipton at 4:57 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Except that Trump did forgive those loans roughly a month after he said he would.

Oh, he did! Huh. I'm actually surprised.
posted by suelac at 4:58 PM on August 12, 2016

he kiiiiiiinda looks like terry crews.
posted by ian1977 at 4:59 PM on August 12, 2016

Clinton trending up double digits in PA, but Trump is literally asking the cops to engage in suppression, and asking the crowd check on other polling stations to "make sure its fine".

He's not even trying to win, but he's sure going to do everything he can to make the result illegitimate in the eyes of his insane 27%ers, no matter what the margin is.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:00 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

So what did they spend $63 million on?

Wait a week or so. FEC filing deadline is the 19th.
posted by Talez at 5:01 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

From the lyrics.... It's obvious trump is the snake and the RNC is the woman.
posted by ian1977 at 5:05 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Incoherent thought processes are a symptom of sleep deprivation.

Trump's very secret strategy will be to actually sleep the night before the debates, so Clinton will be completely taken off-guard by how coherent he is.

This is one of those elections I will be reading tell-all books about twenty years from now. This is one of the few elections where I want to be reading tell-all books written by the Republicans.

I want to be reading those books. I want it to be twenty years from now.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 5:07 PM on August 12, 2016 [16 favorites]

gonna take your belief that there will still be written language in 20 years as a hopeful sign
posted by murphy slaw at 5:09 PM on August 12, 2016 [34 favorites]

Somewhere in New York, an RNC staffer is making phone calls to zoo keepers and wildlife biologists. Trying to find someone who can shoot a tranquilizer dart. To take down someone and force him to sleep for a few hours.
posted by yesster at 5:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I created a new election thread.
posted by zarq at 5:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'd really like to see us make it an entire 7 days on one thread.
posted by zachlipton at 5:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

If Trump dodges the debates, Hillary should just take on Jill Stein and Gary Johnson. The networks would go for it because they's still get the ratings, and Hillary would still get to show off her chops.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:13 PM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm getting constant server errors from Metafilter when I try to load the page, so at this point its not even a brower issue but the backend appears to be having issues generating the page...
posted by thefoxgod at 5:14 PM on August 12, 2016

Hillary should just take on Jill Stein and Gary Johnson.

Oh yeah thanks I was trying to remember who the third party candidates were.
posted by nom de poop at 5:16 PM on August 12, 2016

I think that would be a serious mistake. It would elevate Johnson and Stein. Best case scenario is Clinton-vs-Trump. Worst case scenario is Clinton-vs-Johnson-vs-Stein.
posted by Justinian at 5:18 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clarification on my transcripts above. They are not verbatim, but most of it came out of his mouth. I think verbatim transcriptions would be even more confusing, the way he leaves things halfway said and jumps around.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:21 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I didn't know there were third party candidates! Perhaps if Twitter and Facebook users would be louder about them, I might have heard of this "Gary Johnson" and "Jill Stein".
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Best case moderators: Gwen Ifill, Candy Crowley, and Megyn Kelly.
posted by box at 5:22 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

There is one possibility-- that he paid back that $50 million "loan" he made to himself. He said he was going to forgive the loan but never filed the paperwork.

You can see his June FEC filing here showing 29 personal loans totaling more than $45 million from Trump to his campaign. For all of the loans the amount paid is zero and the balance is zero.
posted by peeedro at 5:23 PM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I read a transcript of one of his speeches someone made. It was ... near-incomprehensible may be being charitable.
posted by kyrademon at 5:28 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I created a new election thread.

Wait, no one answered Lily's question yet: what did it all mean?!
posted by homunculus at 5:40 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thank you peeedro and zachlipton. I thought I remembered he had forgiven the loan but the blogger at Hugffington Post did not think he had. I stand corrected.

MetaFilter: We may not get paid but we are on top of things.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:44 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Evan Who?
posted by riverlife at 5:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Evan Who?"

Okay...

THREAD. OVER.
posted by PROD_TPSL at 5:52 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

temporarily embarrassed McMullinaires
posted by cortex at 5:55 PM on August 12, 2016 [22 favorites]

Has anyone started shipping Meredith McIver and Evan McMullin? If not, why not?
posted by zachlipton at 6:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

The McMullinssense is upon us!
posted by Yowser at 6:31 PM on August 12, 2016

>>Looks like the Trump campaign is once again using poorly-photoshopped anti-Semitic propaganda from white supremacists, this time in the charts he's bringing on stage:

@nmeyersohn: David Duke in July | Donald Trump yesterday

>Wait wait wait up a sec. Did the Trump campaign just steal intellectual property from David Duke?

OK, I couldn't resist poking into this a bit. Upshot is, it was tweeted in Nov 2015 by Trump. It is not clear if the image was created by Trump or Trump staff, or retweeted from somewhere else. It might be based on a similar graphic created by the Florida Republican Party.

Much later (July 2016), it was used by David Duke, who added the pleasant little Star of David touch to the $20 bill.

So no borrowing from Duke by Trump--at least, not this time.

Perhaps the weirdest use of the graphic was in a series of very poorly written news stories about the Russian secret police (FSB) adding Hillary to their terrorist watch list for consorting with known terrorists. Same story can be found verbatim in, to put it mildly, a few other places. (Are those like, ALL paid shills for the Russian Federation or what? Hard to figure out . . . )

Here is the timeline as far as I've been able to piece it together:

• Unknown time: Republican Party of Florida (RPOF.org) creates a graphic "Foreign Countries Gave Hilary Clinton's Foundation Millions". I'll call this the "red graphic". I can't find the graphic on the RPOF web site--the evidence here is the "rpof.org" in the bottom RH corner of the graphic itself.
• 29 April 2015: Earliest use of the "red graphic" (that I could find via Tineye), on the Brotherwatch blog.
• 15 Nov 2015: Trump tweets the "green graphic". It is not clear what its source is--whether he is passing something along that someone else created, or whether it has been created by his staff. It is introduced with (what I consider to be) quite a strange tweet, "@Parker_Votes: We finally have a voice with Let’s do our part & VOTE IN THE R PRIMARY, 4 #Trump2016 #TrumpArmy". So he addresses it to @Parker_Votes. Why? It doesn't appear to be part of a previous conversation, or a re-tweet. Maybe he is tweeting something @Parker_Votes sent him privately, or maybe he is just indulging his habit of directly addressing favorite Twitter supporters randomly? Or he's just weird? Plus, the entire tweet consists of random sentence fragments, but I guess we're all used to that right now. Usually I can get some glimpse of what he is trying to say, but in this case, not so much. At any rate, this is the earliest use of the "green graphic" I can find via Tineye, and it comes from Trump himself.
• 15 Nov 2015: A few minutes later, a twitter user asks for verification/information source and a second user, @Parker_Votes, immediately tweets the "red graphic" and the "green graphic" together. Apparently the "red graphic" is intended as source or backup for the "green graphic". This immediate response,the fact the @Parker_Votes seems to immediately know the information source of the "green graphic", and the fact that Trump addressed the original tweet to @Parker_Votes all make me think that perhaps @Parker_Votes cooked up the "green graphic" based on information in the "red graphic", then PM-ed it to Trump for further use. That is pure speculation, though.
• Nov 2015-July 2016: Lots of other people tweet the graphic, use it in blogs, and such.
• July 2016: David Duke tweaks the green graphic to add a Star of David and tweets it.

So that's the story of Trump's graphic. NOT snitched from David Duke this time around.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming . . .
posted by flug at 6:40 PM on August 12, 2016 [25 favorites]

Trump pretty specifically called on "the sheriffs" and "the police chiefs" to be "watching" the polls in Pennsylvania. He could be crossing into moonlaw as the basis for calling the result illegitimate. He's pretty much pulling directly from Alex Jones' show in the morning at this point and regurgitating it on stage at night, nothing is off the table.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Has anyone started shipping Meredith McIver and Evan McMullin? If not, why not?

You mean "Merevan McMullIver"?
posted by rifflesby at 7:03 PM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

The next reporter who interviews Trump really needs to Double Act It, Stamp It, and declare No Takebacks.
posted by srboisvert at 7:42 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Has anyone started shipping Meredith McIver and Evan McMullin?

I was thinking about maybe trying to, but then I blacked out and when I came too my hand was cramping around the snapped-in-two remains of a ballpoint pen, and looking down I saw that I had scrawled in flowery block print on the cover of a Pee Chee folder, over and over and over again, the words "Meredith McIver-McMullin" with a little heart for the dot on the lower case i's.
posted by cortex at 8:11 PM on August 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump Spokeswoman Says He Was 'Very Serious' About Obama 'Founding ISIS':

When Pierson was first asked if Trump was being sarcastic, she replied, "yes and no."

posted by kirkaracha at 8:39 PM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

The liberal equivalent of The Wall would be Obama Day

The liberal equivalent of The Wall would be Pink Floyd's The Wall.
posted by msalt at 12:06 AM on August 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Zarq: But she wasn't able to fulfill her promise to voters.

Trying to catch up and I don't mean to pick on you but this caught my eye. She absolutely did fulfill her promise. She promised that she would work for those 200,000 jobs and, from your description, it sounds like she worked her damn ass off!

I that perceptions like that are one of the reasons why the Republican strategy of obstructionism has been as successful as it has been. They stand up there and point out that Obama hasn't done any of things he said he'd do. Well, he said he'd work to get them done, whether or not he is able to achieve that isn't 100% up to him but a LOT of people still hold him 100% accountable.

I think that if we evaluated campaign promises based on how whether or not the candidate did everything they reasonably could, it would force people to look into the context behind a sound-byte and actually research the background on issues to see the nuance that just doesn't come through to most people who get their news from TV and radio.
posted by VTX at 6:21 AM on August 13, 2016 [13 favorites]

This incoherence combined with forgetting the names of common things (train) is genuinely concerning.

I'm not sure how much to put down to sleep deprivation, but I've been thinking that too... I keep seeing linguistic tics that I interpret as cognitive degeneration of some sort.
posted by iffthen at 2:41 AM on August 14, 2016

Don Pepino: "They gotta make him eat those cookies that Romney dissed. Remember he went to that picnic and crapped all over the cookies and then they turned out to be from, wherever, Primanti Brothers or somewhere beloved by everyone in PA? The Cookies of Doooooom!"

It was Bethel Bakery.

Primanti's is known for it's sandwiches with coleslaw and french fries on them.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:05 PM on August 14, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm listening, go on
posted by middleclasstool at 7:18 AM on August 15, 2016

Has anyone started shipping Meredith McIver and Evan McMullin?


Yes they have. Mine arrived just the other day. I must say I'm a little disappointed in the quality. Cheesy.
 
posted by Herodios at 10:07 AM on August 15, 2016 [7 favorites]

I can't believe I read this whole thing.

Looks at new thread:
posted by zarq at 7:10 PM
1283 comments (1283 new) +.....
posted by zenon at 12:11 PM on August 15, 2016 [2 favorites]

You can see his June FEC filing here showing 29 personal loans totaling more than $45 million from Trump to his campaign. For all of the loans the amount paid is zero and the balance is zero.

I have non-trivial experience in banking, insurance, and finance, much of it with audit responsibility. And, man, this is just so unbelievable. I mean, who though filing this was a good idea?
posted by mikelieman at 2:14 PM on August 15, 2016

I mean, who though filing this was a good idea?

Disclosure of campaign finance information to the FEC is required by federal law.
posted by zarq at 2:27 PM on August 15, 2016

The liberal equivalent of The Wall would be Pink Floyd's The Wall.

Given a choice between Donald Trump and The Wall, I guess I'd take The Wall, but it would be a very grudging choice.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:03 AM on August 16, 2016

Bouncing back to Hillary's podcast: this seems like another one-sided criticism. I think people would be thrilled if Donnie did a podcast. Why? He might actually speak in full paragraphs, instead of tweet-sized soundbites. Donny creates perfect media-sized packages of incendiary quotes, which is great when you're running as the anti-politician. Except if you win, you're a politician and you need to think and speak in longer, more detailed phrases. You need to review and craft policies. You can't do that via Twitter, even if you have some aides storyify your tweet feed.

But Hillary has a podcast? How sneaky, she doesn't have to answer tough questions! You know, unlike the shtwitstorm from Donny, where he is completely being responsive to media criticism. And it's all in real time, unlike the time-delayed podcast from Hillary.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:56 AM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, Trump can up-end every norm and tradition of running for the presidency (not releasing tax returns, kicking reporters out of his events, saying shit that would tank any other campaign) and the press basically tip-toes around it and shrugs and is like "oh that wacky Donald, what can you do?" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Meanwhile, Clinton decides that maybe spending time giving press conferences to a press corp that has repeatedly abused any access given to them to try to take her down is not a good use of her time, and suddenly "OMG HOW DARE SHE, THIS IS AGAINST ALL NORMS OF DECENCY AND SHE'S HIDING AND WHAT IS SHE HIDING AND ..."

Gee, I wonder what might be the differentiating factor between these reactions ...
posted by tocts at 8:10 AM on August 16, 2016 [2 favorites]

The WashPost actually had an editorial cartoon last week saying something like "The Wall Has Been Built," with a picture of Clinton inside and the press outside. I couldn't even...
posted by OmieWise at 8:48 AM on August 16, 2016

Gee, I wonder what might be the differentiating factor between these reactions ...

She's a corrupt political operative, while Donnie is a model American protecting his freedom of speech [FALSE AND FALSE]
posted by filthy light thief at 9:38 AM on August 16, 2016

OmieWise: an editorial cartoon last week saying something like "The Wall Has Been Built," with a picture of Clinton inside and the press outside

In case you really needed to see it to believe it, here it is -- "This election is about trust ... Trump wants you to believe he can build a wall .. I already have!" [Hillary behind tall metal(?) walls with a sign that says NO PRESS CONFERENCES]

I hate to say it, but political cartoons can be like comments in other forums - cheap shots without much (if any) substance, designed for a quick response.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:51 AM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

9) This leak is likely a warning that someone can prove US responsibility for any attacks that originated from this malware server.   ..

13) TL;DR: This leak looks like a somebody sending a message that an escalation in the attribution game could get messy fast.

Bonus: When I came forward, NSA would have migrated offensive operations to new servers as a precaution - it's cheap and easy. So? So...

The undetected hacker squatting on this NSA server lost access in June 2013. Rare public data point on the positive results of the leak.

You're welcome, @NSAGov. Lots of love. - ‏@Snowden
posted by jeffburdges at 10:02 AM on August 16, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yup, makes me just as angry on second viewing.
posted by OmieWise at 10:09 AM on August 16, 2016