just look at it, it's obvious
August 9, 2016 10:00 AM Subscribe
But I thought it was hollow? Now I'm confused.
posted by Splunge at 10:09 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Splunge at 10:09 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I used to find this sort of thing frustrating, but now I just sort of mentally flag it and move on. The flat earthers are so profoundly miseducated about science that there is really no way to argue with them. Any evidence is dismissed as fake and any attempt to refute the arguments using science will be misunderstood.
The most interesting argument I've seen that does seem to upset some flat earthers is that there are regularly scheduled flights between Australia and South America, which just doesn't work on their model.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:13 AM on August 9, 2016 [25 favorites]
The most interesting argument I've seen that does seem to upset some flat earthers is that there are regularly scheduled flights between Australia and South America, which just doesn't work on their model.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:13 AM on August 9, 2016 [25 favorites]
I'm confused by the capitalization. Surely they should be referred to as "Flat Earthers?"
posted by kittensofthenight at 10:14 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kittensofthenight at 10:14 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
> Meet the People Who Believe the Earth Is Flat
What It's Never Lurgi said. Why would I waste what little time I have on this Earth - whether it be round, flat or Time Cubed - trying to reason with people like this?
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:16 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
What It's Never Lurgi said. Why would I waste what little time I have on this Earth - whether it be round, flat or Time Cubed - trying to reason with people like this?
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:16 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
In an infinite, non-expanding universe, there's the problem that incoming light from distant stars would make the whole sky as bright as the sun (Olbers' paradox). Is there a similar paradox for having a net gravitational force acting on us, since there's no net gravitational force anywhere on the interior of a hollow sphere, and the earth's own mass can be neglected compared to the mass of the rest of the universe? Or would that be like arguing that since Olbers' paradox doesn't hold, the sun must not light up the (daytime) sky either?
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 10:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 10:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I thought it was hollow? Now I'm confused.
There's also cheese in the crust.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:23 AM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
There's also cheese in the crust.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:23 AM on August 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
In an infinite, non-expanding universe, there's the problem that incoming light from distant stars would make the whole sky as bright as the sun (Olbers' paradox)
Maybe there's always more dark space, just like how you can always fit more guests into Hilbert's hotel
posted by thelonius at 10:26 AM on August 9, 2016
Maybe there's always more dark space, just like how you can always fit more guests into Hilbert's hotel
posted by thelonius at 10:26 AM on August 9, 2016
And of course they're 9/11 truthers as well.
(Unless, of course, 9/11 truthers are government plants tasked with spouting ridiculous garbage in order to discredit by association anyone who questions the official narrative.)
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
"I think it was perpetrated by the government," Patrice said. "There was a lot of computer-generated imaging. It was a controlled interior demolition. It was a large-scale deception. I'm not sure how many people died."I still don't get the mental gymnastics involved here. If you're so hell-bent on proving that Bush (or whoever) Did 9/11, why not just argue that the hijackers were on the Feds' payroll? Why even bother with all this nonsense about demolitions and holograms and crisis actors and Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams? It's both absurd and counterproductive.
(Unless, of course, 9/11 truthers are government plants tasked with spouting ridiculous garbage in order to discredit by association anyone who questions the official narrative.)
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:26 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
There's also cheese in the crust.
Well, that sounds like a happy, socially useful and non-violent outcome to me!
posted by nickmark at 10:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, that sounds like a happy, socially useful and non-violent outcome to me!
posted by nickmark at 10:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I dunno how harmless this is. I wouldn't be surprised if unscientific thinking tends to stray into other areas of thought; today's flat-earth truther becoming tomorrow's global warming denier and such. It makes me uncomfortable at the very least. Though I do agree that there are definitely bigger fish to fry.
posted by Aleyn at 10:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 10:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
The part that initially interested me about this was a slew of "but how do they explain so-and-so?" questions, but after reading a couple answers I no longer care to hear further nonsensical explanations for how seasons, tides, navigation, meteorology, GPS, eclipses, rocketry, time zones, moon phases, &c. work.
posted by aubilenon at 10:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 10:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
I mean, don't get me wrong, I love a good mythos. But it has to at least be coherent.
posted by aubilenon at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
"Gravity was not proven, and Isaac Newton and Einstein, all those scientists, are also Freemasons and Satan worshipers," Patrice said.
I... see. Poor Isaac Newton, all his theological work just dismissed. It's enough to make you stick something under your eyeball and wiggle it around.
As for being harmless; it's a little hard to tell from the article, but I'd give you even odds that at least half the interviewees are antisemitic...
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [23 favorites]
I... see. Poor Isaac Newton, all his theological work just dismissed. It's enough to make you stick something under your eyeball and wiggle it around.
As for being harmless; it's a little hard to tell from the article, but I'd give you even odds that at least half the interviewees are antisemitic...
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [23 favorites]
Museum of the Flat Earth opens on (where else?) Fogo Island
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:41 AM on August 9, 2016
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:41 AM on August 9, 2016
the most alarming thing for me is how the FE folks can say things like "I think the sun and the moon are the same distance from the Earth," and "I think they're the same size, same distance from the Earth."
it's that those folks can put "i think" in front of anything they want to believe (or that just randomly pops into their heads) and it's then real. this is a major red flag. it's like when healthy skepticism resolves itself with absolutely no rigor or regard for understood truths (like It's Never Lurgi's flights between australia and south america). it's a red flag to me.
posted by rude.boy at 10:44 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
it's that those folks can put "i think" in front of anything they want to believe (or that just randomly pops into their heads) and it's then real. this is a major red flag. it's like when healthy skepticism resolves itself with absolutely no rigor or regard for understood truths (like It's Never Lurgi's flights between australia and south america). it's a red flag to me.
posted by rude.boy at 10:44 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
it's that those folks can put "i think" in front of anything they want to believe (or that just randomly pops into their heads) and it's then real
I'm told that people teaching 101-level philosophy or composition run up against this hard! It's legitimately difficult to make many students see that "But this is what I believe" does not count as argumentative support.
posted by thelonius at 10:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm told that people teaching 101-level philosophy or composition run up against this hard! It's legitimately difficult to make many students see that "But this is what I believe" does not count as argumentative support.
posted by thelonius at 10:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
Naberius: “At least this is harmless...”
Indeed. But when its proponents are saying things like "I don't know if you can handle what I really think about Hitler" – ooh, Holocaust denial and virulently poisonous antisemitism, so edgy I just can't handle it! – it becomes clear that even when this stuff isn't dangerous in itself, it's an indicator of the kind of credulity that can lead people to adhere to truly dangerous ideas.
posted by koeselitz at 10:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
Indeed. But when its proponents are saying things like "I don't know if you can handle what I really think about Hitler" – ooh, Holocaust denial and virulently poisonous antisemitism, so edgy I just can't handle it! – it becomes clear that even when this stuff isn't dangerous in itself, it's an indicator of the kind of credulity that can lead people to adhere to truly dangerous ideas.
posted by koeselitz at 10:48 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]
But, ships disappear over the horizon. I have seen it happen! And you can see it with your naked eyes if you have good vision, but binoculars make it very clear. No scientists are required.
Yes, I know they have "explanations" for this, but all the ones I've ever seen are transparent BS, which fail to even describe what you see when you watch a ship go over the horizon. Incidentally, if you have never seen it, it's worth trying next time you go to a beach near some shipping. Bring binoculars, see the direct effects of the curvature of the earth.
posted by surlyben at 10:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, I know they have "explanations" for this, but all the ones I've ever seen are transparent BS, which fail to even describe what you see when you watch a ship go over the horizon. Incidentally, if you have never seen it, it's worth trying next time you go to a beach near some shipping. Bring binoculars, see the direct effects of the curvature of the earth.
posted by surlyben at 10:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
The thing that drives me nuts is the "Established documentary evidence and thoroughly known physical theory don't line up with my untutored and unreflective intuitions about the way things must be? See, they are LYING.!!!" move
posted by thelonius at 10:51 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 10:51 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Young me had great fun arguing the Earth was flat just for the hell of it. Old me is sad to see this type of bablescythe adopted straight-faced by the right-wing yomyocks of the world.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you replace "Flat Earthers" with "Trump supporters", this post remains just as valid. Plus, you don't have to wade through 3000 comments!
posted by briank at 11:06 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by briank at 11:06 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
The thing that gets me about round-earthers is that they've got no way to explain why the seasons last an unpredictably long amount of time. If the Earth were a sphere orbiting about the sun with its axis of rotation tilted with respect to its orbital plane, we'd expect seasons to be fairly regular and predictable. Instead, sometimes seasons can last decades at a time, and the only way to be sure a new season is coming is to look for a raven sent from the Maesters in Oldtown.
QED, the Earth is flat. Check and mate, haters.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:08 AM on August 9, 2016 [36 favorites]
QED, the Earth is flat. Check and mate, haters.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:08 AM on August 9, 2016 [36 favorites]
Why would I waste what little time I have on this Earth - whether it be round, flat or Time Cubed
Are you suggesting time is a flat circle?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:15 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Are you suggesting time is a flat circle?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:15 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's not psychosis. It's arrogance. It's a wilful decision that anything that doesn't fit their simplistic model of the world must be rejected out of hand. Like cjelli said, I suspect that it's to do with keeping things predictable and keeping their model of the world fully computable from first principles.
Psychosis is, broadly speaking, when unwanted internal thoughts or external sensations without basis intrude into a person's thought process and their behaviours and their model of the world warps to accommodate them (or under the pressure of rejecting them).
posted by ambrosen at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
Psychosis is, broadly speaking, when unwanted internal thoughts or external sensations without basis intrude into a person's thought process and their behaviours and their model of the world warps to accommodate them (or under the pressure of rejecting them).
posted by ambrosen at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
In your heart you know it's flat.
(One of the most profound koans I've read.)
posted by Nelson at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
(One of the most profound koans I've read.)
posted by Nelson at 11:17 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Wait- you have to stomp a globe flat in order to be inducted into the Flat-Earth Society of Canada?
That is some Tokugawa Iemitsu-level shit right there.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:21 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
That is some Tokugawa Iemitsu-level shit right there.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:21 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I like the ideas of Canadian Flat Earth Society (from wikipedia):
"Flat Earth Society of Canada was established on 8 November 1970 by philosopher Leo Ferrari, writer Raymond Fraser and poet Alden Nowlan; and was active until 1984. Calling themselves planoterrestrialists, their aims were quite different from other flat earth societies. With obvious humorous overtones, they claimed a prevailing problem of the new technological age was the willingness of people to accept theories "on blind faith and to reject the evidence of their own senses."
Now that Iris Taylor has re-started the thing, it is once again accepting applications for membership.
I may have to apply . . . .
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Flat Earth Society of Canada was established on 8 November 1970 by philosopher Leo Ferrari, writer Raymond Fraser and poet Alden Nowlan; and was active until 1984. Calling themselves planoterrestrialists, their aims were quite different from other flat earth societies. With obvious humorous overtones, they claimed a prevailing problem of the new technological age was the willingness of people to accept theories "on blind faith and to reject the evidence of their own senses."
Now that Iris Taylor has re-started the thing, it is once again accepting applications for membership.
I may have to apply . . . .
posted by fimbulvetr at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
A coworker's brother is a flat earther and Trump supporter, if that tells you anything about these people.
In Canada, it's causing family fights. I might be inclined to do the same thing if my son's girlfriend thought the earth was flat.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
In Canada, it's causing family fights. I might be inclined to do the same thing if my son's girlfriend thought the earth was flat.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, I know they have "explanations" for this, but all the ones I've ever seen are transparent BS, which fail to even describe what you see when you watch a ship go over the horizon. Incidentally, if you have never seen it, it's worth trying next time you go to a beach near some shipping. Bring binoculars, see the direct effects of the curvature of the earth.
Those ships have been swallowed by Leviathan, duh.
Admit it, once you saw those ships "go over the horizon," you never saw them again, did you?
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Those ships have been swallowed by Leviathan, duh.
Admit it, once you saw those ships "go over the horizon," you never saw them again, did you?
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:22 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
So, in their view, is the Moon flat as well?
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am a Flat Earther. The only way you could convince me otherwise is by buying me a round-the-world plane ticket. Or cruise ticket. Or maybe one of those rides into space.
BTW do you know any round-earth-believing millionaires who want to argue for their beliefs?
posted by miyabo at 11:42 AM on August 9, 2016 [28 favorites]
BTW do you know any round-earth-believing millionaires who want to argue for their beliefs?
posted by miyabo at 11:42 AM on August 9, 2016 [28 favorites]
I'm imagining this amazing world where gravity isn't real and everything is actually controlled by buoyancy and how freaking awesome that would be.
Anything inside of a vacuum would become weightless and frictionless. Flying would be so much easier you could probably do it with just some wings strapped to your arms and flapping hard enough. I'm not smart enough to do the math, but I think I could even improve my jumping ability just by eating a bunch of beans.
posted by mayonnaises at 11:43 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anything inside of a vacuum would become weightless and frictionless. Flying would be so much easier you could probably do it with just some wings strapped to your arms and flapping hard enough. I'm not smart enough to do the math, but I think I could even improve my jumping ability just by eating a bunch of beans.
posted by mayonnaises at 11:43 AM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's like an unintentional Gish Gallop: so much bullshit flies by you can't refute it one point at a time.
posted by Monochrome at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2016
posted by Monochrome at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2016
Indeed. But when its proponents are saying things like "I don't know if you can handle what I really think about Hitler" – ooh, Holocaust denial and virulently poisonous antisemitism
I almost commented on that, but the following couple of paragraphs made me wonder if their ideas weren't "NASA employed some ex-Nazis, so the moon landing was a Nazi plot." As I said above, I'd bet folding cash that you can get from most (if not all) the interviewees to antisemitism in a couple of short hops, conspiracy theories being what they are (ranting about Freemasons usually enfolds ranting about Jews, for example), but I'm not sure if that quote is further evidence or that the article's not the best written thing on the web.
On the other hand, it probably ends up at the same place.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2016
I almost commented on that, but the following couple of paragraphs made me wonder if their ideas weren't "NASA employed some ex-Nazis, so the moon landing was a Nazi plot." As I said above, I'd bet folding cash that you can get from most (if not all) the interviewees to antisemitism in a couple of short hops, conspiracy theories being what they are (ranting about Freemasons usually enfolds ranting about Jews, for example), but I'm not sure if that quote is further evidence or that the article's not the best written thing on the web.
On the other hand, it probably ends up at the same place.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:45 AM on August 9, 2016
It's like an unintentional Gish Gallop
It is very far from unintentional, because the Gish Gallop is effective. Someone confided to me that they "didn't know what to think" after seeing Flat Earther stuff, and the quantity of their arguments was specifically a thing she mentioned that made her think they are on to something important.
posted by thelonius at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
It is very far from unintentional, because the Gish Gallop is effective. Someone confided to me that they "didn't know what to think" after seeing Flat Earther stuff, and the quantity of their arguments was specifically a thing she mentioned that made her think they are on to something important.
posted by thelonius at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I like the ideas of Canadian Flat Earth Society (from wikipedia):
I thought a few of the flat earth societies (maybe not the very original) were a little tongue-in-cheek or primarily making a philosophical point, as opposed to the very serious conspiracy theorists you find online these days.
posted by atoxyl at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2016
I thought a few of the flat earth societies (maybe not the very original) were a little tongue-in-cheek or primarily making a philosophical point, as opposed to the very serious conspiracy theorists you find online these days.
posted by atoxyl at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2016
Instead, sometimes seasons can last decades at a time, and the only way to be sure a new season is coming is to look for a raven sent from the Maesters in Oldtown. QED, the Earth is flat. Check and mate, haters.
You'll be happy to know that the Flat Earth theory also posits giant ice walls.
posted by ejs at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
You'll be happy to know that the Flat Earth theory also posits giant ice walls.
posted by ejs at 11:50 AM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
You'll be happy to know that the Flat Earth theory also posits giant ice walls.
and the Eskimos paid for them.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
and the Eskimos paid for them.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:59 AM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]
I wonder what would happen if you took one of them up to the moon. Would he come back converted from his flat Earth beliefs, would he be shunned by other flat Earthers? Would he believe that it was some elaborate hoax and that the rocket REALLY flew to some other place where a huge set was built to mimic the earth/moon?
posted by Hazelsmrf at 12:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Hazelsmrf at 12:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Would he believe that it was some elaborate hoax and that the rocket REALLY flew to some other place where a huge set was built to mimic the earth/moon?
You mean like this, Hazelsmrf
Unrelated to that, the idea that the world is a disc with the north pole at the middle is pretty clearly wrong if you look at the sizes and distances of stuff south of the equator. I.e., flying around the world at 30°S isn't in fact way longer than flying around the world at 30°N. That's trivially obvious to people living in the Southern hemisphere, but I guess they're probably not white enough to matter?
(Also: In my earlier list of things I gave up on wanting coherent flat-earth explanations for, I forgot about the Coriolis effect, which is a little embarrassing because that's my absolute favorite effect)
posted by aubilenon at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
You mean like this, Hazelsmrf
Unrelated to that, the idea that the world is a disc with the north pole at the middle is pretty clearly wrong if you look at the sizes and distances of stuff south of the equator. I.e., flying around the world at 30°S isn't in fact way longer than flying around the world at 30°N. That's trivially obvious to people living in the Southern hemisphere, but I guess they're probably not white enough to matter?
(Also: In my earlier list of things I gave up on wanting coherent flat-earth explanations for, I forgot about the Coriolis effect, which is a little embarrassing because that's my absolute favorite effect)
posted by aubilenon at 12:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
wait, if the moon is closer than the clouds, then why don't we just fly there in some hot air balloons? I mean, NASA's lie would have to be that the moon is hard to get to, not that they got there at all...
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 12:34 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 12:34 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
Agartha will yet awaken.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
People always focus on exactly the wrong things.
posted by freakazoid at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2016
posted by freakazoid at 12:43 PM on August 9, 2016
That's trivially obvious to people living in the Southern hemisphere, but I guess they're probably not white enough to matter?
Gondwanans will probably embrace this new geography, because look at how much land mass it adds to their countries! Argentina is bigger than Canada and Australia is nearly as big as Asia!
posted by polecat at 12:46 PM on August 9, 2016
Gondwanans will probably embrace this new geography, because look at how much land mass it adds to their countries! Argentina is bigger than Canada and Australia is nearly as big as Asia!
posted by polecat at 12:46 PM on August 9, 2016
Make America Flat Again.
posted by anazgnos at 12:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by anazgnos at 12:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
So how much does everything think I could raise with a kickstarter to charter a plane to go to the edge of the world and get video proof to finally expose those nazi NASA bastards for the liars they are! (Did I get that sounding right? I'll have to do more research obviously).
posted by Infracanophile at 12:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Infracanophile at 12:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are you suggesting time is a flat circle?
It certainly is on the clock on my living-room wall.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
It certainly is on the clock on my living-room wall.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Infrancophile, how do we know you're not a Freemason Satanist yourself?
posted by ejs at 12:50 PM on August 9, 2016
posted by ejs at 12:50 PM on August 9, 2016
Are you suggesting time is a flat circle?
Wait, I thought it was a cube.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:56 PM on August 9, 2016
Wait, I thought it was a cube.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:56 PM on August 9, 2016
I've met two people who believe that there are several species of space aliens living with us, in disguise or invisible to most people. One of them even has her whole Facebook feed about (badly photoshopped) photographic "proof" that you can see alien civilizations on the moon and mars. I asked both of them if the earth is flat and they both treated me like I was an idiot because how could aliens from throughout the galaxy be living among us if the earth was flat...?
posted by peeedro at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
What holds the air in place?
Gravity. Which according to FE is make-believe and everything is density and buoyancy, which of course ignores a rather famous experiment involved an Italian and a building with a lousy foundation.
There is no point arguing with these folks they are not interested in knowledge but attention just as all conspiracy theorist do. they crave validation through a 'secret' knowledge that will elevate the masses with themselves at the center. They are the culmination of a Messiah complex fueled by faith and martydom when attacked. They can't be saved because in their heart they believe they exist on a completely different plane (no pun intended) than us.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Gravity. Which according to FE is make-believe and everything is density and buoyancy, which of course ignores a rather famous experiment involved an Italian and a building with a lousy foundation.
There is no point arguing with these folks they are not interested in knowledge but attention just as all conspiracy theorist do. they crave validation through a 'secret' knowledge that will elevate the masses with themselves at the center. They are the culmination of a Messiah complex fueled by faith and martydom when attacked. They can't be saved because in their heart they believe they exist on a completely different plane (no pun intended) than us.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I was extremely puzzled by the article's animated image of the sun rotating around the flat Earth. Like, how can you jive that idea with the trivial observation that the sun rises and sets? I followed the link and found this page. In the comments section the guy explains that he thinks that sunset is explained by parallax--as the sun gets farther away it appears closer to the horizon until it is virtually level with the horizon.
Of course, that would mean the sunset would be a process of the sun appearing asymptotically closer to the horizon and slowly getting dimmer and smaller, which says to me that he's never watched the sunset over the ocean.
On this page he recounts an argument with his friend who is a pilot...and wins! (by misunderstanding everything)
posted by polecat at 1:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Of course, that would mean the sunset would be a process of the sun appearing asymptotically closer to the horizon and slowly getting dimmer and smaller, which says to me that he's never watched the sunset over the ocean.
On this page he recounts an argument with his friend who is a pilot...and wins! (by misunderstanding everything)
posted by polecat at 1:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
There is a big wall around the edge that keeps the air in. Duh.
posted by thelonius at 1:29 PM on August 9, 2016
posted by thelonius at 1:29 PM on August 9, 2016
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Folks, don't flag stuff and then angrily respond to it.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:47 PM on August 9, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:47 PM on August 9, 2016
Could there be some other kind of geometry that makes a flat earth make a little more sense? Like, the reason that the distance from Australia to South America is not as vast as the disc implies is that "miles" work differently that far rimward of the center, maybe?
I mean, I guess there is another geometry that makes it work, and that geometry is "the earth is a sphere".
posted by Galaxor Nebulon at 1:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
I mean, I guess there is another geometry that makes it work, and that geometry is "the earth is a sphere".
posted by Galaxor Nebulon at 1:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
I try to keep an open mind about stuff, and I'm also a bit contrary
so I'm reading this thinking, "what if they are right? I've never been in space, I am taking the account of physicists and astronomer and geologists on faith alone, and I should question my faith ..."
The most interesting argument I've seen that does seem to upset some flat earthers is that there are regularly scheduled flights between Australia and South America, which just doesn't work on their model.
and then I look at their maps and think - this doesn't work, Australia isn't that far from South America.
still want to go into space.
posted by jb at 1:59 PM on August 9, 2016
so I'm reading this thinking, "what if they are right? I've never been in space, I am taking the account of physicists and astronomer and geologists on faith alone, and I should question my faith ..."
The most interesting argument I've seen that does seem to upset some flat earthers is that there are regularly scheduled flights between Australia and South America, which just doesn't work on their model.
and then I look at their maps and think - this doesn't work, Australia isn't that far from South America.
still want to go into space.
posted by jb at 1:59 PM on August 9, 2016
I had been twisting my brain trying to make their models make sense - but still failing. They just don't make logical sense: if gravity doesn't exist, then what is pulling the denser matter DOWN through the less dense? what does "down" mean without gravity?
posted by jb at 2:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jb at 2:01 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
On this page he recounts an argument with his friend who is a pilot...and wins! (by misunderstanding everything)
He argues that, if the Earth was a sphere, wouldn't you hafta keep adjusting the plane's pitch to keep up with the curve of the Earth? Okay. But if the Earth was flat, wouldn't you hafta keep adjusting your yaw to keep going in what we currently consider a straight line?
posted by Galaxor Nebulon at 2:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
He argues that, if the Earth was a sphere, wouldn't you hafta keep adjusting the plane's pitch to keep up with the curve of the Earth? Okay. But if the Earth was flat, wouldn't you hafta keep adjusting your yaw to keep going in what we currently consider a straight line?
posted by Galaxor Nebulon at 2:04 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
The article didn't touch on my favorite Flat Earth explanation for what we think is gravity: The Earth is accelerating up at 9.8 meters per second.
posted by ejs at 2:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ejs at 2:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
I had been twisting my brain trying to make their models make sense - but still failing. They just don't make logical sense: if gravity doesn't exist, then what is pulling the denser matter DOWN through the less dense? what does "down" mean without gravity?
"Down" means "towards the Earth". That's easy. Understanding that it's nonsensical to have buoyancy without gravity requires a knowledge of physics. Which they do not have.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 2:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Down" means "towards the Earth". That's easy. Understanding that it's nonsensical to have buoyancy without gravity requires a knowledge of physics. Which they do not have.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 2:23 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
In an infinite, non-expanding universe, there's the problem that incoming light from distant stars would make the whole sky as bright as the sun (Olbers' paradox)
Slight derail but one thing I've never understood about Olbers' is that it assumes all the starlight that could ever reach us already has and that the source of the light (a star) never dies.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 2:24 PM on August 9, 2016
Slight derail but one thing I've never understood about Olbers' is that it assumes all the starlight that could ever reach us already has and that the source of the light (a star) never dies.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 2:24 PM on August 9, 2016
Do they tend to follow a particular cult, sect or religion? Or are they from any particular geography?
Also, how do they account for the photographs of the Earth taken by spaceships and satellites?
posted by infini at 2:26 PM on August 9, 2016
Also, how do they account for the photographs of the Earth taken by spaceships and satellites?
posted by infini at 2:26 PM on August 9, 2016
Understanding that it's nonsensical to have buoyancy without gravity requires a knowledge of physics
Isn't buoyancy without gravity how a centrifuge separates stuff?
posted by aubilenon at 2:29 PM on August 9, 2016
Isn't buoyancy without gravity how a centrifuge separates stuff?
posted by aubilenon at 2:29 PM on August 9, 2016
what does "down" mean without gravity?
The enemy's gate is down.
posted by quadrilaterals at 2:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
The enemy's gate is down.
posted by quadrilaterals at 2:47 PM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
me: “But when its proponents are saying things like "I don't know if you can handle what I really think about Hitler" – ooh, Holocaust denial and virulently poisonous antisemitism, so edgy I just can't handle it! – it becomes clear that even when this stuff isn't dangerous in itself, it's an indicator of the kind of credulity that can lead people to adhere to truly dangerous ideas.”
GenjiandProust: “I almost commented on that, but the following couple of paragraphs made me wonder if their ideas weren't "NASA employed some ex-Nazis, so the moon landing was a Nazi plot." As I said above, I'd bet folding cash that you can get from most (if not all) the interviewees to antisemitism in a couple of short hops, conspiracy theories being what they are (ranting about Freemasons usually enfolds ranting about Jews, for example), but I'm not sure if that quote is further evidence or that the article's not the best written thing on the web.”
Yeah, I made the mistake of clicking on the "Hitler" link in the previous paragraph before the bit I quoted, which links to a video by Eric Dubay that argues for three and a half hours (!) that Hitler is a rather nice chap who never committed any atrocity and who has been framed by the nefarious "Jew World Order."
posted by koeselitz at 3:26 PM on August 9, 2016
GenjiandProust: “I almost commented on that, but the following couple of paragraphs made me wonder if their ideas weren't "NASA employed some ex-Nazis, so the moon landing was a Nazi plot." As I said above, I'd bet folding cash that you can get from most (if not all) the interviewees to antisemitism in a couple of short hops, conspiracy theories being what they are (ranting about Freemasons usually enfolds ranting about Jews, for example), but I'm not sure if that quote is further evidence or that the article's not the best written thing on the web.”
Yeah, I made the mistake of clicking on the "Hitler" link in the previous paragraph before the bit I quoted, which links to a video by Eric Dubay that argues for three and a half hours (!) that Hitler is a rather nice chap who never committed any atrocity and who has been framed by the nefarious "Jew World Order."
posted by koeselitz at 3:26 PM on August 9, 2016
bablescythe
Holy moly this is a good word I'm stealing it.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Holy moly this is a good word I'm stealing it.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:58 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
> I mean, I guess there is another geometry that makes it work, and that geometry is "the earth is a sphere".
You see? These so called "scientists" can't even agree on whether it's a "sphere" or a so-called "oblate spheroid" ... which just proves that it all just a theory!
"Flat" is obviously also a theory, but it's simpler so it must be true. It does seem a little odd that the map is centered *here*, but I guess that just goes to show how important I am.
posted by nickzoic at 4:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
You see? These so called "scientists" can't even agree on whether it's a "sphere" or a so-called "oblate spheroid" ... which just proves that it all just a theory!
"Flat" is obviously also a theory, but it's simpler so it must be true. It does seem a little odd that the map is centered *here*, but I guess that just goes to show how important I am.
posted by nickzoic at 4:24 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've never met a flat-earther, but if I did, is deal with it by taking them that I don't believe in flat-earthers, because no one could be that stupid and therefore they're all just pulling an elaborate practical joke. Clearly, they'd have no way to defend against my reasoning.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:27 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've never met a flat-earther, but if I did, is deal with it by taking them that I don't believe in flat-earthers
I think the right answer is to go with non-sequitur* questions. Like: "Hang on, if the Earth is flat, then why do we have stuff like lightning?"
* as much as any question can be a non-sequitur to "nothing about physics is true"
posted by aubilenon at 4:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think the right answer is to go with non-sequitur* questions. Like: "Hang on, if the Earth is flat, then why do we have stuff like lightning?"
* as much as any question can be a non-sequitur to "nothing about physics is true"
posted by aubilenon at 4:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have to admit, it never occurred to me that Flat Earthers were serious.
Not that I think about it very often. But whenever I did, I thought they're all tongue-in-cheeking it, like LARP-ing or something.
Still just kind of shocked.
posted by yesster at 4:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Not that I think about it very often. But whenever I did, I thought they're all tongue-in-cheeking it, like LARP-ing or something.
Still just kind of shocked.
posted by yesster at 4:45 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Where do all the scientists and politicians and pilots go to unlearn their fallacious primary school science educations? (Probably Area 51)
How long are the courses and how much do the super secret teachers get paid. Baby wants an inground swimming pool and has teaching experience, hit me on my LinkedIn
posted by elr at 4:49 PM on August 9, 2016
How long are the courses and how much do the super secret teachers get paid. Baby wants an inground swimming pool and has teaching experience, hit me on my LinkedIn
posted by elr at 4:49 PM on August 9, 2016
So, in their view, is the Moon flat as well?
If the Moon and Sun are both just disc-shaped, then it makes Mr. sun-and-moon-are-the-same-distance's story just a little more plausible for me, because I was thinking that would make for some really exciting solar eclipses. If the sun is just one dime-shaped moon-thickness farther away, then it all makes sense. It also explains why the dark side of the moon is so dark--because it gets toasted by grazing the sun every couple years or whatever.
As for lunar eclipses....uhhhh
posted by polecat at 5:40 PM on August 9, 2016
If the Moon and Sun are both just disc-shaped, then it makes Mr. sun-and-moon-are-the-same-distance's story just a little more plausible for me, because I was thinking that would make for some really exciting solar eclipses. If the sun is just one dime-shaped moon-thickness farther away, then it all makes sense. It also explains why the dark side of the moon is so dark--because it gets toasted by grazing the sun every couple years or whatever.
As for lunar eclipses....uhhhh
posted by polecat at 5:40 PM on August 9, 2016
There does seem to be a curious connection between flat earth conspiracists and anti-Semitic conspiracists. B.O.B. was on that tip too - his flat earth song shouts out David Irving (!) which people didn't seem to notice somehow.
posted by atoxyl at 5:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 5:43 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
No way you are going to convince me there are people in first world countries who believe the earth is flat.
posted by notreally at 5:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by notreally at 5:50 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ugh I can't handle posts about flat-earthers. Every single time I get sucked into reading about them, it's irresistible, it's almost like this invisible force called, I dunno, buoyancy?
I have a job, people!
posted by Naib at 6:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have a job, people!
posted by Naib at 6:15 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm reading that flat earth page about flying from Cape Town to Sydney. And I am beyond confused. What is his graphic supposed to be illustrating?
posted by Hactar at 6:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Hactar at 6:30 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I probably shouldn't have read it; I actually got short of breath, claustrophobic, like I feel in a crowded elevator. I've read flat earth stuff before, and did not expect this reaction.
posted by lhauser at 8:35 PM on August 9, 2016
posted by lhauser at 8:35 PM on August 9, 2016
My very favorite thing about encountering someone who believed the earth is flat is how condescendingly they called me a "ball earther"
posted by flaterik at 9:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 9:38 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
flateric: how condescendingly they called me a "ball earther"
Did you explain what "eponysterical" means?
posted by sneebler at 10:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Did you explain what "eponysterical" means?
posted by sneebler at 10:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sadly, this was on that social network thing so they knew my real name instead of the reference to a puppet from a house music video...
posted by flaterik at 10:18 PM on August 9, 2016
posted by flaterik at 10:18 PM on August 9, 2016
I mean, don't get me wrong, I love a good mythos. But it has to at least be coherent.
Says you. Some of us get along perfectly fine with a non-coherent mythos, thankyaverymuch.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:58 PM on August 9, 2016
Says you. Some of us get along perfectly fine with a non-coherent mythos, thankyaverymuch.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:58 PM on August 9, 2016
I haven't looked, because I don't think I could handle it...but how thick is the flat earth? I mean, is it infinite? Where are the edges? How do you explain magnetic poles, or wind, or...yeesh.
posted by maxwelton at 11:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 11:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
How do you explain magnetic poles, or wind, or...yeesh.
Poorly.
posted by aubilenon at 12:00 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Poorly.
posted by aubilenon at 12:00 AM on August 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Galaxor Nebulon, you could try projective geometry. As trippy as flat earth theory but not wrong.
posted by clew at 12:17 AM on August 10, 2016
posted by clew at 12:17 AM on August 10, 2016
and the Eskimos paid for them.
The giant blind albino penguins did; the walls were built by shoggoths, though.
posted by acb at 3:51 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
The giant blind albino penguins did; the walls were built by shoggoths, though.
posted by acb at 3:51 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, (some of) these people are not actually that harmless. A friend and colleague of mine (on the astro faculty of a research university) got contacted by one of the Flat-Earthers -- I don't remember what the original impetus was, but I think maybe they'd seen him doing some outreach stuff on the BBC. My friend quite innocently and earnestly replied to this person by email, pointing out a small number of the many problems with the idea. The flat-earther replied, and after a couple more emails my friend offered to actually chat on the phone about it -- which was, frankly, going waaaaay beyond what I would have done.
After their chat, he ends up getting a slew of emails from OTHER flat-earthers, and even a few people calling his office phone. Some of the emails were "polite," in the sense of merely saying that my friend was a stooge of Big Sphere; others were not. Some were completely unhinged. He eventually figured out that the first person who contacted him had posted a transcript or recording (I don't remember which) of their interactions, on his flat-Earth Youtube channel, including in that video a snapshot of my friend's contact info (office location, phone number), etc.
He was seriously freaked out by this, and debated what to do about it. The advice he got from various people was to forget about it; the internet would move on, and this video (and he) would probably be forgotten in a few weeks. (Sure enough, I just tried to find the video in question and couldn't, so I guess they were right.) But it was more than a little unnerving to have people calling his office and telling him he's an idiot, he's part of a giant conspiracy, etc, etc. I've had waaaaaay less sympathy for this kind of willfully ignorant conspiracy-mongering since then.
posted by chalkbored at 4:38 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
After their chat, he ends up getting a slew of emails from OTHER flat-earthers, and even a few people calling his office phone. Some of the emails were "polite," in the sense of merely saying that my friend was a stooge of Big Sphere; others were not. Some were completely unhinged. He eventually figured out that the first person who contacted him had posted a transcript or recording (I don't remember which) of their interactions, on his flat-Earth Youtube channel, including in that video a snapshot of my friend's contact info (office location, phone number), etc.
He was seriously freaked out by this, and debated what to do about it. The advice he got from various people was to forget about it; the internet would move on, and this video (and he) would probably be forgotten in a few weeks. (Sure enough, I just tried to find the video in question and couldn't, so I guess they were right.) But it was more than a little unnerving to have people calling his office and telling him he's an idiot, he's part of a giant conspiracy, etc, etc. I've had waaaaaay less sympathy for this kind of willfully ignorant conspiracy-mongering since then.
posted by chalkbored at 4:38 AM on August 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Like others I can't resist going down the rabbit-hole reading this stuff when it pops up on Reddit or elsewhere, one interesting thing I've noticed is how most proponents can't seem to imagine learning or consuming information via any medium except Youtube. Their counter-arguments inevitably seem to go: "But have you watched this video?". It's pretty striking.
posted by nfg at 8:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nfg at 8:08 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Any evidence in favor of the conspiracy is solid proof of the conspiracy.
Any evidence against the conspiracy is solid proof of the cover-up by Big Whatever.
posted by farlukar at 8:21 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Any evidence against the conspiracy is solid proof of the cover-up by Big Whatever.
posted by farlukar at 8:21 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
→ a stooge of Big Sphere
This needs to be a t-shirt.
posted by scruss at 8:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
This needs to be a t-shirt.
posted by scruss at 8:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
The thing I don't get about stuff like this is... why? So you think NASA is making up the moon landing and space stations and everything, and the government is lying about the Earth really being flat. Why would they do that? What possible purpose would there be for maintaining such a complicated lie for so long?
posted by sarcasticah at 4:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sarcasticah at 4:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I never tried to post a link before, but the discussion about philosophy students not understanding that "I want to believe it" is a valid argument makes me want to post my favoritest Sunday Morning Breakfast Cereal. Which, probably unfairly, describes my reasons for not studying much philosophy.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:32 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:32 PM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not that I want to go too deep into the crazy... But if the sun and the moon circle the flat earth, then why does the moon:
1. Appear in the day sky sometimes.
2. Have phases? Tonight there is a half moon clearly visible from my porch. Shouldn't be a thin, almost invisible sliver of a disk at all times?
posted by Splunge at 7:44 PM on August 10, 2016
1. Appear in the day sky sometimes.
2. Have phases? Tonight there is a half moon clearly visible from my porch. Shouldn't be a thin, almost invisible sliver of a disk at all times?
posted by Splunge at 7:44 PM on August 10, 2016
Until now, I assumed modern Flat Earthers were joking or trolling. It's saddening to learn that at least some of them are serious.
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:43 PM on August 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
« Older O Sister, Where Art Thou? | "Thank you so much!" Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Naberius at 10:07 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]