The Curiously Oppresive Power of Positive Thinking
August 9, 2016 10:01 AM   Subscribe

"People with disabilities routinely run into barriers that make realizing the life they want impossible. These barriers are not of our making and cannot be overcome by means of a positive attitude." A rumination on positve thinking, the myth of control and disability by Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg.

"Given that all bodies are vulnerable and go through fluctuating states of ability, disability, energy, fatigue, wellness, and illness, we cannot rely simply on our own individual power. Rather, we must collectively help make one another’s dreams manifest. We must remove the barriers and the inequities that keep people from realizing their dreams."
posted by Anonymous (70 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble



 
I will never forget the argument I had with someone because he believed that poor people were poor because they gave out a poor energy, and I thought they were poor because they didn't have money or circumstances to earn enough money. He ended the argument feeling smugly superior to my simplistic understanding of the Universe; I figured the only reason he actually believed that was because he'd never experienced things outside of his control.

There's something privileged hidden within the mindset that one controls the universe via energy. It speaks to being inexperienced with hardship and insensitive to others' experiences.
posted by Deoridhe at 10:30 AM on August 9, 2016 [90 favorites]


Amen!
posted by saulgoodman at 10:30 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


The cult of positive thinking is new age libertarianism.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 10:32 AM on August 9, 2016 [52 favorites]


Exactly. And for some of us chronic pain sufferers, and those of us with debilitating depression, the idea that I can somehow flip a switch in my head and not feel like shit...it's grinding. I often go through the day trying to pretend to be normal because anything else requires explanations, or suddenly people want to make accommodations I never asked for, or offer advice! A positive attitude is pretty much forever beyond me. I don't try for that. I just shoot for functional, and I don't beat myself up too bad when I can't even manage that.

I'm not religious, but this is also something I see amongst some of those who are. If things aren't right, well, you just need to pray harder. Things still going wrong, well, it's not that you are sick or disabled, it's your lack of faith.

I meditate. I try to change my emotional responses to stress and pain, but I'm never going to shoot for a positive attitude.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:35 AM on August 9, 2016 [40 favorites]


People don't want to acknowledge that they're essentially powerless in an uncaring mechanistic universe, I'm not sure if that's all that surprising. And they say stupid stuff to try to maintain that belief.
posted by GuyZero at 10:41 AM on August 9, 2016 [36 favorites]


As someone who has spent a lifetime struggling against negative thought patterns, I can see the potential benefits to a positive (but realistic!) attitude...but the problem is that the idea has been monetized, taken to illogical extremes (i.e. bullshit like The Secret) and circumvented into victim-blaming ("you just didn't want it badly enough/your negative thoughts caused the bad outcome!").
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:41 AM on August 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


This thread so far.

I'm not complaining. I'm loving it, actually.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:45 AM on August 9, 2016


Also, reminds me of that study that shows that some depressive people often aren't actually pessimistic, but rather realistic, and that happier people tend to walk around with rose-tinted glasses on.

While people with depression can suffer from cognitive distortions, the scientific literature suggests that those with only mild-to-moderate depression can also have more accurate judgment about the outcome of so-called contingent events (events which may or may not occur), and a more realistic perception of their role, abilities, and limitations. This so-called 'depressive realism' may enable a person with depression to shed the Pollyanna optimism and rose-tinted spectacles that shield us from reality, to see life more accurately, and to judge it accordingly.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [24 favorites]


Bookmarked for the next time some well-meaning but unthinking jerk tells me all I need to do is "be happier ."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:53 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Indeed; Bobby McFerrin has much to answer for.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:02 AM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


As a not-so-dogmatic Buddhist, I believe our intentions, intuitions, and psychological outlook play important roles in the processes of cause and effect and when it comes to judging the ethics of our behaviors. As a chronic, severe ADD sufferer who's also recovered from psychedelic-use aggravated psychosis, physical addiction, and related/situational anxiety and long term depression I know for a fact you need a lot more than a positive attitude to even survive, let alone thrive, when the going gets rough
posted by saulgoodman at 11:02 AM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


The cult of positive thinking is new age libertarianism.

Absolutely this! It's scary how much the new age Left has internalized little unconscious pieces of Randian objectivism.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:05 AM on August 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


Actual conversation I once had:

"Depression is literally just in your mind."
"Yeah, what's telling you that?"
"..."
posted by Etrigan at 11:06 AM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


anything else requires explanations, or suddenly people want to make accommodations I never asked for, or offer advice

Oh yes, all three of those things.
posted by ambrosen at 11:07 AM on August 9, 2016


As a not-so-dogmatic Buddhist,

I mean, isn't the first of the three golden truths of Buddhism that "All life is suffering."

Seems like Buddhism in general had it figured out, even back then.

---

Oh wait, nevermind, I forgot that the third golden truth was that "Through the mind, we can overcome all, including suffering," which sounds just a little too close to all this positive thinking crap.

(Literally, I remembered the third rule halfway through writing this comment, not intending to sound like a sarcastic asshole.)
posted by deadaluspark at 11:10 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Depression is literally just in your mind."

I suffer from idiopathic or neuropathic pain. Constant low-level diffuse pain in my abdomen and neck that grinds much the joy out of life. I've had all the scans, had all the tests, and nothing is wrong. I asked my doctor what idiopathic meant and he essentially said, "We can't find something that's causing the pain. Could be it's just in your head," but he said this in doctor-speak. I replied, "But it still hurts!" I was thinking I'd get an argument, but he says, "Pain is pain. Doesn't matter if it has a definable cause or not."
posted by cjorgensen at 11:18 AM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Depression is literally just in your mind."

People seem to forget that the mind is a function of the brain, which is a physical organ just like the heart and the liver.

"I have hepatitis."

"Yeah, well, that's literally just in your liver."
posted by LindsayIrene at 11:23 AM on August 9, 2016 [70 favorites]


All the feels. Thank you for posting this.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:25 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I needed this especially today. I had to miss my social work licensure test because of a migraine. I'm in the process of applying for disability, but was denied due to being able to shower and prepare basic meals. I would love to be able-bodied; if positive thinking could get me there, I'd be taking my test right now, but that's not how it works. I'm learning to live with my disability, but I can't "overcome" it in some sort of supernatural way.
posted by epj at 11:28 AM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Oh wait, nevermind, I forgot that the third golden truth was that "Through the mind, we can overcome all, including suffering," which sounds just a little too close to all this positive thinking crap.

I'm not an expert in Buddhist theology but that's not really what it says. The second noble truth says suffering comes from craving or attachment or whatever word you use. The third noble truth says that you can cease suffering by ceasing craving or attachment. The eightfold path says how you can go about achieving the cessation of attachment.

The only thing the Buddha promises you is the end of suffering, for a specific definition of the word "suffering". And eventually nirvana in the sense of ending the cycle of death and rebirth. But if you have chronic pain or a bad life the basic core of Buddhism doesn't really say much to you although it is a big religion with lots of stuff I have no idea about so there's probably something out there that says something on that front.

But unlike these prosperity gospel people you don't actually get anything for adhering to the eightfold path. You actually get literally less and less until you have nothing. Which is the entire point. It could be no further from the prosperity gospel nonsense of basically harassing God to make you rich.
posted by GuyZero at 11:31 AM on August 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


It's scary how much the new age Left has internalized little unconscious pieces of Randian objectivism.

The just-world theory is a monster with tenacity to rival that of the killer in any 80s slasher flick series.
posted by praemunire at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Cool, thanks for the more detailed breakdown, GuyZero, that makes much more sense, in context.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:33 AM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


And I should add that that's a pretty religious-studies-101 breakdown of the four noble truths and actual Buddhists may spend their days doing other things.
posted by GuyZero at 11:39 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Much of this stuff comes out of the New Thought movement
posted by thelonius at 11:44 AM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


And Prosperity theology. Even Christians think it's dangerous: "We ought to be admiring those among us whose godliness shines like the sun in its noonday strength, but we are fast losing that view. Christians are instead admiring the few individuals with big houses, and flashy cars and clothes, even when such individuals are living in sin. Invariably this emphasis is resulting in churches being rocked with scandals once rare in evangelical circles. Also, prosperity theology makes people think health and wealth are products of a man of God’s prayers (which he performs for you when you plant a financial “seed”), despite the fact that health and wealth are products of good hygiene, nutritious meals, regular exercise, medical treatment, integrity, innovativeness, and hard work."
posted by GuyZero at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


It's interesting how many people will resist saying anything about the actual medical steps you're taking to treat an illness. I've had a chronic issue in my digestive system that people have ignored what I've said I've had tested and have told me it's:

Stress
Gluten
"Toxins"
Depression
Lack of Exercise
Need for Sunshine (Vitamin D)
The Way I'm Sitting In My Chair
Pesticides
Gluten
Allergies I Haven't Been Tested For Yet
Allergies I've Been Tested For But Are Sensitive To Anyway
Gluten
Bad Water
Anxiety
Gluten

So this is a topic that annoys me to no end. When I'm in crushing, debilitating pain, I just pretend it doesn't exist around other people, because it's worse to be told it's something in my head or something that I'm personally doing wrong than to have someone to talk to about it.
posted by xingcat at 11:52 AM on August 9, 2016 [34 favorites]


One of the things that really impresses me about America is the wide variety of different forms of prosperity gospel that we've managed to invent for ourselves. No matter what you believe about the world, we've got a version of prosperity gospel for you.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:53 AM on August 9, 2016 [22 favorites]


I wonder if anybody has taken it upon themselves to buy up discarded hardcover copies of The Secret in the same way the Everything Is Terrible folks collected Jerry Maguire on VHS.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:53 AM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I had an amusing interaction with a young doctor at my last appointment at my neurologist's office. I've been seeing my neurologist for over a decade now, so he was very familiar with my case. He was training a new doctor and asked if I minded describing to the new doctor what it was like to live with my nerve damage. I described the symptoms and complications, and he was obviously quite disturbed by the idea that I'd been living with this constant pain for so long, with little relief during waking hours. He began asking my neurologist about possible treatments, and my neurologist patiently responded with all of the issues and problems, shooting down each idea one-after-the-other. We'd already had all these discussions and tried everything that made sense. When it finally got through to this young doctor that this was going to be my life and there was nothing to be done about it, he turned to me and actually said, "That's horrible!" I smiled and assured him it was okay. "Some people have real problems," I said. And I meant it. It's the sort of thing I say a lot when other people need reassurance in the face of my pain.

People assume this means I have a positive attitude and refuse to be defined by my injury, which I suppose is how I generally sell it, but it really just means I have family and friends who love and depend on me, and who I've made certain promises to. On good days I manage not to resent that they're keeping me from blowing my fucking brains out.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:57 AM on August 9, 2016 [63 favorites]


Way back when I was using Pinterest, I posted a link to this article, about using people with disabilities as inspiration porn. I'd been pretty much using Pinterest in a bubble, following and being followed only by people I knew.

So imagine my surprise when strangers started repinning it.

So I went and looked, and people had repinned it for the degraded, cut-off image, and had replaced the original caption with something like "AWE so inspiring!!!" because they always spell it AWE. They didn't even seem to realize it was linked to an article. They kept doing it even after Pistorius killed his girlfriend, too.

I suspect that anyone who has spent a minute thinking about these things has noticed how fucked up the message is. A lot of people don't think for a minute, though, and you can't make them.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:00 PM on August 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Positive thinking: the rickety bridge between complete, paralyzing nihilism and breakfast.
posted by klanawa at 12:06 PM on August 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


"Inspiration porn" - well-said!

I don't want to derail form the topic of people with disabilities, but cancer patients also get a good dose of people telling them they can cure themselves by willpower and/or they brought their sickness on themselves because it is a manifestation of their negativity or some such horseshit. Lots of "just world" fallacy stuff: people very badly want to believe that cancer is always the victim's fault (because of smoking, for example).
posted by thelonius at 12:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


I just read this essay, The Scrying Game by Alice Bolin, which is about makeup, makeup vloggers, anxiety, and loneliness, touches on some of these same points:
What is especially sad in these videos is that the vloggers seem to have found so few answers to dealing with the severity of their illnesses. Although they both have gotten medical help, Zoella and Kathleen talk about rejecting (prescription) drugs and hand out platitudes as if they’re samples at the Clinique counter. “I am strong enough to conquer this,” Kathleen says. “Never stick to a timed schedule for anything,” Zoella says, advice that is not practical for almost anyone who is not an internet celebrity. They both seem ashamed at how their illness problematizes beauty vloggers’ cult of positivity, giving advice similar to other YouTubers’ “how to stay happy” videos: think nice thoughts, stay organized, ask yourself what’s the worst that could happen. Ultimately, they have accommodated their disorders by getting a job where they don’t have to leave their houses and they have complete control over when and how they get everything done.

Making leisure your labor, an elaboration of “working from home,” can be a profound comfort. Collapsing the public and private can mean protection from both realms—stripped of some of the obligations of traditional professionalism, your public life can be more intimate and casual. And when you “be yourself” for a living, your private self can be infused with the armored posturing of a public persona. This elision can also, truly, drive a person crazy.
Even within a (somewhat) accommodating lifestyle, the mandatory positive thinking is a burden on these women, something they have to give homage to even as they are too anxious to take a cab or leave the house. Their illness is seen as something less than the positivity needed to be a beauty blogger, even as they obviously succeed at the vlogging game.
posted by palindromic at 12:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Metafilter: the rickety bridge between complete, paralyzing nihilism and breakfast.
posted by deadaluspark at 12:07 PM on August 9, 2016 [23 favorites]


Wasn't there some disabled person recently who was saying they loved the Paralympics but were beginning to experience the attitude that they couldn't be cherishing their disability hard enough or they'd be a world class athlete by now?
posted by Segundus at 12:14 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Some of the people I've known who believed most fiercely in positive thinking / prosperity gospel types of things, have overwhelming, terrible life challenges. Serious, chronic illnesses, terrible family situations, financial disaster.

I'm happy to decry people who punch down with positive thinking messages, but I'm less comfortable telling somebody who is reaching desperately for hope and has found some there, that that hope is spurious.
posted by edheil at 12:25 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Some of the people I've known who believed most fiercely in positive thinking / prosperity gospel types of things, have overwhelming, terrible life challenges. Serious, chronic illnesses, terrible family situations, financial disaster.

I'm happy to decry people who punch down with positive thinking messages, but I'm less comfortable telling somebody who is reaching desperately for hope and has found some there, that that hope is spurious.


In my experience living with a debilitating chronic illness, some of the people who were the cruelest and least sensitive to me were fellow sufferers who subscribed to some of the beliefs described in the article. There is an awful lot of infighting in these communities and I think it's reductive to say that someone who is suffering must be free to espouse hurtful beliefs as long as those beliefs are self comforting.
posted by telegraph at 12:35 PM on August 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


The trouble here may be the loose definition of "positive thinking".

To me positive thinking includes the following (imo beneficial) practices:

1. Assuming positive intentions of others
2. Taking a positive and forgiving attitude towards others; embracing the belief that the majority will reciprocate positivity.
3. Mindful awareness of self-talk and moving away from negative loops.
4. Focusing on the work and on improving competence rather than self-judgment.
5. Doing the above in the expectation, but not the guarantee of a good outcome.
posted by storybored at 12:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


study that shows that some depressive people often aren't actually pessimistic, but rather realistic, and that happier people tend to walk around with rose-tinted glasses on.

"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who haven't got it."
posted by rhizome at 12:41 PM on August 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Stress

This one drives me nuts, moralists love it, it's perfect for victim blaming. Yes, chronic stress does real things to people, works on that HPA axis, lowers immunity, increases vulnerability to disease and pain in various ways. If you're unwell, it certainly helps matters to find better coping methods, if those are lacking. But it won't fix things. Stress doesn't cause cancer. You wouldn't not get it if you lived "well" enough.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:44 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


A great post, thanks for this. We need more like it.
I wish the woo industry would die a thousand fiery deaths and the true believers banished to a far-away island. Their muddled thinking is a scourge and victim-blaming abhorrent. These fucking idiots should not get a free pass from the rest of us affected by their bullshit. No more. Time to call them out and hold them accountable for the damage they do to others.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 12:49 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


telegraph, that's a fair point. There's such a thing as punching sideways.
posted by edheil at 12:53 PM on August 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


My sister suffers from some interrelated chronic health issues and has historically been an optimist and positive thinker, which was channeled health-wise into control over her own body, via a new form of exercise, a restrictive and specific diet, a new set of supplements. Each new venture in bodily control correlated with a brief period where she would feel better, but then her symptoms would start to come back. It has only been in the past year or so where she has realized that she has chronic health issuses that she has actually gone, say, two weeks without a migraine.

That is to say, she is having a better experience living honestly with her body, in all its buggy glory, than when she felt the need to make her body just work dammit. I know she felt a burden of having to put a cheerful face on her suffering, and no one wants to be in a position where they concede to a sub-optimal status quo. But being 'positive' about being sick or incapacitated seemed to mean only constantly and actively seeking a permanent cure and not letting anyone else know that previous efforts had failed to do so. It prevented her from taking the steps that actually helped her successfully manage her condition.

Because there is no permanent cure for what ails her, she still has to cancel plans and call into work, as she did before. But now she is far less likely to try to power through a shift or social event when she feels symptoms coming on. Instead, she is just like, my crappy body crapped out on me, and does what she needs to do. That this has required her to cut down on communicating with a bunch of faux-supportive people in her life has been more feature than bug.
posted by palindromic at 1:03 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I live in a broken space in my head that I've done well enough to mask, hide, cope and manage with my whole life. About 4 months ago I decided that I was done trying to pretend like I'm not broken, and now I just get real with people and do my best to reassure them that I'm not some fragile case of about to lose my shit and freak out, but instead that I have made a pretty useful and functional life out of a some pretty tough circumstances in my head, that I'm tired of pretending like I'm okay and I need someplace in my life where I can just be completely fucked up and broken and accepted as I am and allowed to just be a complete and total fucking unregulated mess - Because white-knuckling through this all the time has ground me down to the point where most days the every-minute struggle I go through to function no longer seems worth the price of living.
posted by Annika Cicada at 1:10 PM on August 9, 2016 [20 favorites]




I know this is about disability, but the concept reminds me of "praying away the gay" or ... whatever is analogous and rhymes with trans. If I was just more body-positive and feminist, I wouldn't be transgender! Trust me, every single trans person has tried to think themselves out of it.
posted by AFABulous at 1:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hope pointed at the wrong thing can be a weapon, for sure. (Or just a liability, thinking of bad marriages...)

I can't say I haven't been vulnerable to it myself, tbh. It's about psychic survival, you want to control or at least predict some aspect of an uncontrollable thing. That survival is at stake when it comes to competing views on "what works", so sure, the discussion can be intense.

(What I've been looking at lately is guided visualization, on the rationale that "if sports psychologists and health psychologists say it might help, why not give it a shot"... have been trying to imagine collagen fibers knitting themselves together in orderly rows, beefy blood cells bringing trays of pulsing (probably?) O2 molecules... Yeah, no luck so far with that.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I thought I had good health insurance.

Hahahaha.
posted by srboisvert at 2:04 PM on August 9, 2016


Mod note: A few comments deleted. Sorry saulgoodman, this isn't really the place; this is about chronic illness and disability.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:28 PM on August 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


For anyone who liked the Stella Young article ernielunquist linked to above, more on "inspiration porn" here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:05 PM on August 9, 2016


You see, if disabled people all did something wrong that caused their disability, then you, the non-disabled person, can tell yourself that you'd never do that, so what happened to them will never happen to you. It gives you an illusion of control. It's like why some people are more scared of flying than they are of driving, even though flying is safer- they feel in control while driving, but not while flying.
posted by Anne Neville at 3:17 PM on August 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


FTA:

My answer is this: Given that all bodies are vulnerable and go through fluctuating states of ability, disability, energy, fatigue, wellness, and illness, we cannot rely simply on our own individual power. Rather, we must collectively help make one another’s dreams manifest. We must remove the barriers and the inequities that keep people from realizing their dreams.

It’s not enough for each of us to do it for ourselves. It’s up to all of us to do it for one another.


And this is why accessibility is a matter of concern for people who do not have a disability: you are only temporarily able-bodied.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:34 PM on August 9, 2016 [19 favorites]


Some of the people I've known who believed most fiercely in positive thinking / prosperity gospel types of things, have overwhelming, terrible life challenges. Serious, chronic illnesses, terrible family situations, financial disaster.

I've noticed some similar things, but in my sample group, I've also noticed that the constant focus on positive thinking and motivation can make things worse for them.

When reality hits someone who is heavily invested in positive thinking, it seems to hit them harder, because they never let themselves think about anything but positive outcomes. They're visualizing these ideal scenarios that almost never happen, and when they don't happen, they blame themselves and sometimes other people for holding them back.

The same people also seem to get jammed up by 'motivation' in their own lives. They are constantly trying to motivate themselves to do things, and they never get around to actually working toward the things they want.

People in general overvalue positivity and just world scenarios. It's considered an admirable character trait to act as though bad things don't happen. But bad things do happen, all the time. Life is not fair. It's naive to assume that every outcome will be positive, and naivete in adults is not charming. It's just willful ignorance, and it hurts everyone.
posted by ernielundquist at 4:39 PM on August 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's even harder when a shitty thing happens if it's a shitty thing you've been telling yourself couldn't happen to you. Even more so if you had been feeling superior to the people it did happen to, because they were too dumb to know the secret or too undisciplined to live right or whatever. Then, in addition to the shitty thing, you've got a crisis of faith to deal with. If you're smart, lucky, and basically a good person, you might come out of it with a little more compassion and less belief in a just world.
posted by Anne Neville at 6:16 PM on August 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Of course people who have terrible life circumstances believe in positive thinking. They've had to spend a LOT more time thinking about disease or financial crisis or whatever than people who haven't dealt with those things have. They want a charm to make those things go away or at least not get worse, and many people in our culture believe that positive thinking is just that. It's one of our culture's superstitions.

When positive thinking doesn't make the problems go away, you can usually rationalize and say it kept them from being even worse, if you're so inclined. Most people in a bad situation can imagine a way that it could be worse.
posted by Anne Neville at 6:32 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


despite the fact that health and wealth are products of good hygiene, nutritious meals, regular exercise, medical treatment, integrity, innovativeness, and hard work
even the debunkers of the prosperity doctrine seem to take a just world for granted
posted by idiopath at 6:36 PM on August 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


And this is why accessibility is a matter of concern for people who do not have a disability: you are only temporarily able-bodied.

This!

As I learned last month you can move from able-bodied to disabled in a fraction of a second. While moving from disabled to able-bodied, if even possible, is never quite that fast.
posted by srboisvert at 7:56 PM on August 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


Maybe the reason is I haven't suffered enough - but I just don't understand the point of the Louis CK piece. What is the point of saying "believing in good things is stupid"? The universe is arbitrary, it's not dedicated to giving you goodies or to relentlessly beating you up, it couldn't care less about you, so why is refusing to believe in goodness somehow less stupid than refusing to believe in badness? They both seem pretty damn stupid.

I agree that people scramble for a feeling of control in a universe they don't have control over. I don't think anything can magically cure pain and suffering and that lots of people are scared to admit that, because pain and suffering gets all of us, in the end.

But I don't believe it's useless or stupid to be grateful for what you have, or to try to see whatever upside you can, or to reach out to comfort and help others, or to believe that there are people who love you and to be comforted by that, or to notice that there are good things also in life. It doesn't magically cure a single thing and we are still all going to die, that doesn't make it worthless.
posted by Cozybee at 9:48 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yup - that's the flip side of my life, Cozybee, 1000%. I'm privileged, and my life has been blessed. I've said it before, but one of the things I miss out on being an atheist, is I really wish I felt like I had someone I could thank. I don't deserve the good in my life, but I sure am grateful.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:46 PM on August 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


There's a big gap between "you can do anything at all if you put you mind and heart into it! you are not limited by the restraints of your body or the chemicals in your brain!" which is a load of ableist over-privileged crap, and "your quality-of-life will be better if you find something you enjoy, and cherish it intensely."

Far too many of the "think POSITIVE!!!" crowd believe "you can think yourself into happiness and productivity," instead of "you can learn to find tiny shreds of joy and let them brighten even the most miserable of circumstances."

There's a world of difference between "your life can be awesome!"(often a flat-out lie) and "your life can be better," which is... almost always true, but also very often not worth harping on. There are reasons those of us with depression, those with disabilities, those who are fighting stressful battles in their lives, swap around gifs of ducklings and rainbows. "Focus on something that doesn't bring you despair" is often very useful advice... but it doesn't actually fix a damn thing, and I wish the positive thinking crowd would realize that. Enough bits of Not Miserable may give you the peace of mind to figure out how to make life less miserable overall, but "less miserable" does not equal "awesomely fun."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:44 AM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


The problem isn't gratitude or positive thinking. Those are good things. The problem is victim-blaming, and an unrealistic idea of what positive thinking can do. There's also the use of the idea of positive thinking to beat up people who are talking about something that they are justifiably upset about. Those things are the problem, not positive thinking as such.

Positive thinking isn't going to cure cancer or dementia or paralysis. It just isn't. It isn't going to prevent those things, and you should never blame someone who has an illness or a disability for bringing it on themselves by not thinking positively enough. Oh, and positive thinking can't cure mental illnesses, either. Telling someone who has a disease that makes them think negatively to think positively and offering no other treatment or support is just cruel.

Positive thinking can't replace medical insurance, access to medical care, or handicapped accessibility. People with illnesses and disabilities are upset about the lack of those things. Some people would like to tell them to think positive, but they're really thinking, "I don't want to hear about your problems or be inconvenienced to help you."
posted by Anne Neville at 6:53 AM on August 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


Yes, many illnesses and disabilities are scary. It's understandable that people would want to reassure themselves that those things are unlikely to happen to them. But that's a problem if, while doing that self-soothing, you're making things worse for people who have those illnesses or disabilities. You see how that isn't nice, or fair? That's what you are doing when you blame people for their illnesses or disabilities. If you think someone is to blame for their illness or disability, keep it to yourself, unless you've got a concrete suggestion of how they can use that knowledge now to make their life better. Even then, it's probably best not to offer unsolicited advice. A closed mouth gathers no feet.
posted by Anne Neville at 7:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's Raining Florence Henderson: I really wish I felt like I had someone I could thank. I don't deserve the good in my life, but I sure am grateful.

The Buddhism I've experienced has an aspect of cultivating a free-floating gratitude for everything -- for the very big, the very small, and all beings in between, including ourselves. Sure we didn't ask to be here, but here we are, caught between acceptance of things we don't want (like this disease) and the endless variety of everyday life. I also find it difficult because of that thing in my head saying, "I don't deserve this", but that's not right. We're here for a very short time and how could we be less than, say, squirrels, who enjoy a lot of running and jumping and the delight of forgotten nuts before being squished by a car. Meanwhile, finding things to be grateful for is something that's helped a lot to bring me into my own experience, good and bad.
posted by sneebler at 7:40 AM on August 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Free floating gratitude is a great way to put it. It's one of the aspects of bhuddist practice I fall down on constantly. Even the small appreciation for things so easily taken for granted, warmth of the sun and sound of the wind on leaves type stuff, it can make a huge difference.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 8:02 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


My brain chemistry breaks down to the point where gratitude is not available to me for days and sometimes weeks on end. Afterwards when I am recovering I have to do the work to forgive and to love that part of me that breaks down as I continue to search to give my brain the chemicals it needs to not be like this anymore.
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:41 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Some of the people I've known who believed most fiercely in positive thinking / prosperity gospel types of things, have overwhelming, terrible life challenges. Serious, chronic illnesses, terrible family situations, financial disaster.

I'm happy to decry people who punch down with positive thinking messages, but I'm less comfortable telling somebody who is reaching desperately for hope and has found some there, that that hope is spurious.


One of my best friends and the only person I know who genuinely thinks/says "everything happens for the best" is also the only person I know who has experienced so many horrific things that people often respond to retelling with disbelief rather than sympathy. Because he's young, able-bodied (well, aside from the lasting side effects of chemo and of near-death exposure) and neurotypical (well, aside from the PTSD and the long menu of terrifying flashbacks) it's not something he's "allowed" to say. If he does say it, literally everyone's response is to argue and tell him why he's wrong.

And he's not saying it in condescending or douchey ways - he never, ever expresses that sentiment in response to someone else's life challenge. I've only ever heard him say it as a response to something he himself was hurt by or a tough change in his life. It's something he only uses as a personal mantra (he's not otherwise religious) and a way to placate others' sympathy. He would never tell or try to convince anyone else to believe that, though he seems to genuinely holds it as a core belief himself.

It really sucks that people's need to look at the world "realistically" often extends to heartlessly criticizing messages than others find soothing, without first pausing to consider why they think that. Positive thinking can be used to punch down but I really don't think that that's the primary use for those who hold such ideas sincerely.
posted by R a c h e l at 10:55 AM on August 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


If you want to think positively, practice gratitude, or whatever, great! Do it, and I sincerely hope it makes your life better. It's when you tell other people to do it that there might be a problem. There might also be a problem if you can't shut up about it, and bore people by constantly talking about it. And don't expect it to magically solve every problem in your life. It simply can't do that.

It's kind of like prayer, dieting, exercise, and a whole lot of other things that way.
posted by Anne Neville at 12:26 PM on August 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


I hit the jackpot of disabilities.

I have dyslexia and dyscalculia. I have generalized anxiety disorder. I have Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis. I have Trigeminal Neuralgia. I have Narcolepsy without cataplexy.

I am a broken human being. I will never be able to be rid of any of these.

I will take medications for the rest of my natural life that make me barely able to function at a level that passes for normal. Their ability to do so will fail over time as my conditions worsen or I grow resistant to the medications.

I will never be well.

I will never stop trying to be the person I want to be. I will finish my PhD. I will get a teaching job. I will write books. I will do research. I will travel. I will live my life as I want to.

But it will always be hemmed in by my limits.

I have to rest often. I have to be careful and keep good notes. I have to keep from forgetting to do things like pay bills and turn in paperwork. I have to rest my hands to keep them from locking up into claws, immobilized by my own tendons (again). I have to realize I will be useless for 24 hours after a flight because the lower air pressure makes my neuralgia and arthritis flare. I have to use a cane even on days I don't need it if I need to be sure people understand my limitations and that I am disabled. I have to remind myself every day that it is OK that I've been at my PhD for six years, that some people take a lot longer.

I am a broken human being. But even broken, I am still a human being.
posted by strixus at 12:30 PM on August 10, 2016 [14 favorites]




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-downes/i-cant-in-fact-do-anythin_b_9117736.html
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 2:29 PM on August 13, 2016


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