An actual crime, or just “suspicious activity”
August 25, 2016 9:40 AM Subscribe
Wow. I did not think I would ever be saying it, but they've made a really solid effort at incorporating evidence-based UX pieces to solve a systemic problem, where most sites are still going with the tried-and-true ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've been inactive on my own neighborhood group for months, because things had gotten so toxic. (Who knew that every single time music can be heard playing in the enormous nearby public park, and there are minorities assembled listening to it, it warrants an organized campaign to flood the local PD with calls?) This is enough that I'm reconsidering.
posted by Mayor West at 9:48 AM on August 25, 2016 [34 favorites]
I've been inactive on my own neighborhood group for months, because things had gotten so toxic. (Who knew that every single time music can be heard playing in the enormous nearby public park, and there are minorities assembled listening to it, it warrants an organized campaign to flood the local PD with calls?) This is enough that I'm reconsidering.
posted by Mayor West at 9:48 AM on August 25, 2016 [34 favorites]
Basically, they realized that racist posters weren't adding value to their platform, and increased friction for them to discourage them. Good move.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:50 AM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:50 AM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
The C Is for Crank: Nextdoor Claims it Will Excise Racial Profiling from Site
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:57 AM on August 25, 2016
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:57 AM on August 25, 2016
I have never touched this this because I REALLY don't want to know what my neighbors are thinking. I'm having trouble imagining another viewpoint, honestly.
posted by selfnoise at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
Basically, they realized that racist posters weren't adding value to their platform, and increased friction for them to discourage them. Good move.
I think the issue is more complicated than that. Most of the problematic posts that drove me out initially weren't overt; it's classic structural racism, where white folk get benefits of the doubt that POC don't get. It's totally legit to remark that there are people acting weirdly on the street, especially in transitional neighborhoods. When all that's showing up is vague reports of "black male acting suspiciously," though, or there are dozens of complaints about the Hispanic group laying music out of their car speakers, but none about the white kids' birthday party with the boombox, then my eyebrow goes up.
posted by Mayor West at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
I think the issue is more complicated than that. Most of the problematic posts that drove me out initially weren't overt; it's classic structural racism, where white folk get benefits of the doubt that POC don't get. It's totally legit to remark that there are people acting weirdly on the street, especially in transitional neighborhoods. When all that's showing up is vague reports of "black male acting suspiciously," though, or there are dozens of complaints about the Hispanic group laying music out of their car speakers, but none about the white kids' birthday party with the boombox, then my eyebrow goes up.
posted by Mayor West at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2016 [11 favorites]
I haven't seen any racism on NextDoor but I think it's because my neighborhood is fairly integrated, and people who post know that their black neighbors will be reading what they say. The biggest drama we've had was between someone who didn't like the pizza at the new neighborhood restaurant and the rest of the thread telling him to just order Domino's if he didn't like it.
posted by AFABulous at 10:03 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 10:03 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah I'm a vocal critic of Next Door, which I found to be an intensely stressful service because of the utterly unrelenting volume of hate you had to receive with your city roadwork updates, but these do seem like positive changes that may actually reduce the volume of nonsense complaints.
I don't know that I'd go back, though. All replies and discussion threads devolved pretty fast into racism so I'm not sure that's being addressed. It seemed to me they were leveraging the ugly, toxic racism for its network effects, since it's only a useful service if a critical mass of local people sign up, and they were totally willing to be "place racists complain about minority teenagers" to achieve that effect.
Mine was so bad I'd feel physically sick to my stomach whenever I saw an email from them in my inbox. It was one of the ugliest, most abusive things I've ever seen on the internet, and nobody -- not my city, not Next Door -- seemed interested in the problem. My stomach is actually clenching just thinking about it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:07 AM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't know that I'd go back, though. All replies and discussion threads devolved pretty fast into racism so I'm not sure that's being addressed. It seemed to me they were leveraging the ugly, toxic racism for its network effects, since it's only a useful service if a critical mass of local people sign up, and they were totally willing to be "place racists complain about minority teenagers" to achieve that effect.
Mine was so bad I'd feel physically sick to my stomach whenever I saw an email from them in my inbox. It was one of the ugliest, most abusive things I've ever seen on the internet, and nobody -- not my city, not Next Door -- seemed interested in the problem. My stomach is actually clenching just thinking about it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:07 AM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have never touched this this because I REALLY don't want to know what my neighbors are thinking. I'm having trouble imagining another viewpoint, honestly.
It's not always crime and complaining. I've found out about rummage sales and festivals and new businesses through it. Maybe I'm just lucky, but it's nothing like my local newspaper's comments, which are a vile pit of snakes.
posted by AFABulous at 10:08 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's not always crime and complaining. I've found out about rummage sales and festivals and new businesses through it. Maybe I'm just lucky, but it's nothing like my local newspaper's comments, which are a vile pit of snakes.
posted by AFABulous at 10:08 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
I heard this on the radio the other day and I like, very much. Good effort.
My local Nextdoor isn't this way at all, though, maybe because, like AFABulous, my neighborhood is fairly well-integrated and racially profiling your literal neighbors is kind of a bad look. The biggest fights happen in a neighborhing 'hood which used to be white working class and is now gentrifying like crazycakes, so it's basically white retirees vs. white hipsters, which is a pretty fun spectator sport I have to admit.
Mostly it's just people giving away or selling used shit, notices about road closures and local festivals, and lost dogs/cats.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:15 AM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
My local Nextdoor isn't this way at all, though, maybe because, like AFABulous, my neighborhood is fairly well-integrated and racially profiling your literal neighbors is kind of a bad look. The biggest fights happen in a neighborhing 'hood which used to be white working class and is now gentrifying like crazycakes, so it's basically white retirees vs. white hipsters, which is a pretty fun spectator sport I have to admit.
Mostly it's just people giving away or selling used shit, notices about road closures and local festivals, and lost dogs/cats.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:15 AM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wow. I am relieved that there is at least one crowd-sourced website taking this seriously.
posted by latkes at 10:27 AM on August 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by latkes at 10:27 AM on August 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's encouraging that just saying "Hey, aren't you being a racist?" seems to create a measurable improvement. Although apparently not enough improvement that they didn't also have to included an "Error: we will not let you be a racist" feature along with it.
posted by layceepee at 10:28 AM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by layceepee at 10:28 AM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Wow. I am relieved that there is at least one crowd-sourced website taking this seriously.
If only there were some sort of.... community weblog... that could bring this idea to the masses.
posted by schmod at 10:31 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
If only there were some sort of.... community weblog... that could bring this idea to the masses.
posted by schmod at 10:31 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
One of the interesting things about Nextdoor is that despite how much it sucks due to issues like this, the LAPD and other local officials seem to have made a fairly big investment in interactions with it and you actually do often see posts which finally answer the age old burning question of "what was that siren/helicopter/emergency vehicle" all about?!
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:35 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:35 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hmmm if only there was a fundamental lesson in this article that all tech companies could learn from about what specific practices they could change to combat their own products' unintended racial bias...
Nextdoor CEO Nirav Tolia told me this week that he was “floored by that article,” having not realized before he read it that the network he co-founded to foster more close-knit communities had a racism problem.
“I’m a person of color so it really cut deep,” Tolia said
H M M M M M M M M M
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:36 AM on August 25, 2016 [27 favorites]
Nextdoor CEO Nirav Tolia told me this week that he was “floored by that article,” having not realized before he read it that the network he co-founded to foster more close-knit communities had a racism problem.
“I’m a person of color so it really cut deep,” Tolia said
H M M M M M M M M M
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:36 AM on August 25, 2016 [27 favorites]
Actually, I've noticed that my neighborhood's Nextdoor really mellowed out over the past few months.
I don't pay much attention to the site or contribute much myself, but I wonder if they've been doing other stuff behind the scenes to encourage users to put a more positive spin on things.
I have to roll my eyes at the CEO who had "no idea" that his site was being used this way, but NextDoor deserves serious kudos for acknowledging the problem, and making a serious and continuous effort to deal with it.
Also, this very clearly demonstrates that representation matters. Funny how the only social network to try to make a meaningful change to reduce racism and toxic behavior on its platform is run by a person of color.
posted by schmod at 10:37 AM on August 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
I don't pay much attention to the site or contribute much myself, but I wonder if they've been doing other stuff behind the scenes to encourage users to put a more positive spin on things.
I have to roll my eyes at the CEO who had "no idea" that his site was being used this way, but NextDoor deserves serious kudos for acknowledging the problem, and making a serious and continuous effort to deal with it.
Also, this very clearly demonstrates that representation matters. Funny how the only social network to try to make a meaningful change to reduce racism and toxic behavior on its platform is run by a person of color.
posted by schmod at 10:37 AM on August 25, 2016 [18 favorites]
Nextdoor for us seems to be mostly garage sale posting and requests for contractor recommendations and averages only a few posts a week. The Facebook neighborhood groups on the other-hand can be as nasty and contentious as the old Yahoo groups were.
posted by octothorpe at 10:42 AM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:42 AM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Octothorpe, same here in New England but honestly I much much prefer Nextdoor for that reason. It's not that useful yet, but at least there are not 3-5 JAQoff Blue Lives Matter trolls getting jiggly in every comment thread.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:44 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:44 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Everyblock in my neighborhood included lots of posts from paranoids cowering in their apartments in perpetual fear mutually reinforcing each other's terror. I took it as a net-win because if they stay home I don't have to ever meet them.
posted by srboisvert at 10:50 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 10:50 AM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
We use Facebook groups in my neighbourhood for this. Not much casual racism but lots of death threats for drivers that speed in school zones.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:59 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 10:59 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
LOL this being Massachusetts a woman in our local FB group reported a road rage incident on a normal street in our town and about half a dozen amazing human beings screamed at her for driving too slow.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:02 AM on August 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:02 AM on August 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
This is a really great development, and I hope that the positive results they've seen can be applied to other forums. Like, maybe if there were a way to influence the type of people who call 911 about everything.
But I still think the whole concept of the service is creepy as fuck. I don't think I've ever seen a private forum like this that didn't consist largely of shitty gossip. To the point that I just assume that's one of the primary purposes for anonymous forums.
It's a good development that they're now filtering specifically for people saying nasty things about people because of their race, and I really really hope their ideas take off. But when you give people a forum to talk about other people behind their backs, you're always going to get a bunch of chickenshits in their gossiping. People will find better dogwhistles, and they'll find plenty of non-race based reasons to talk shit about people.
When that racism article came out, I asked a few of my neighbors if they had heard of Nextdoor. Nobody had, so my next door neighbor was going to sign up for an account so we could see what was going on on the local one, but she was creeped out with their verification system, so she backed out partway through. And she does not get easily creeped out. You know what they did, though? Even though she backed out of the verification and changed her mind about signing up? Sent her a verification postcard in the mail. We were all even more creeped out by that.
I mean, I can think of tons of good uses for a hyperlocal service like this, but none of them would require it to be a closed private forum. I don't see why the police can't just post newsworthy local events to a public forum somewhere so people can be informed without having to turn over all their personal information to a private company, especially for the privilege of getting access to public information. If someone in a different neighborhood wants to know what those emergency vehicles were doing here, or what those coyotes were up to last night, or whether those neighbors have put another bizarre piece of exercise equipment on the curb for the taking, I think that would be OK. Why would anyone care?
I'm honestly not getting what non-assholean purpose the exclusion serves.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:04 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I still think the whole concept of the service is creepy as fuck. I don't think I've ever seen a private forum like this that didn't consist largely of shitty gossip. To the point that I just assume that's one of the primary purposes for anonymous forums.
It's a good development that they're now filtering specifically for people saying nasty things about people because of their race, and I really really hope their ideas take off. But when you give people a forum to talk about other people behind their backs, you're always going to get a bunch of chickenshits in their gossiping. People will find better dogwhistles, and they'll find plenty of non-race based reasons to talk shit about people.
When that racism article came out, I asked a few of my neighbors if they had heard of Nextdoor. Nobody had, so my next door neighbor was going to sign up for an account so we could see what was going on on the local one, but she was creeped out with their verification system, so she backed out partway through. And she does not get easily creeped out. You know what they did, though? Even though she backed out of the verification and changed her mind about signing up? Sent her a verification postcard in the mail. We were all even more creeped out by that.
I mean, I can think of tons of good uses for a hyperlocal service like this, but none of them would require it to be a closed private forum. I don't see why the police can't just post newsworthy local events to a public forum somewhere so people can be informed without having to turn over all their personal information to a private company, especially for the privilege of getting access to public information. If someone in a different neighborhood wants to know what those emergency vehicles were doing here, or what those coyotes were up to last night, or whether those neighbors have put another bizarre piece of exercise equipment on the curb for the taking, I think that would be OK. Why would anyone care?
I'm honestly not getting what non-assholean purpose the exclusion serves.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:04 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just checked mine. There's been no meaningful activity since 2014.
posted by Karmakaze at 11:09 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Karmakaze at 11:09 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's weird in the news seeing them use the same diversion into describing clothes on crimes that happened a few days ago.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 11:10 AM on August 25, 2016
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 11:10 AM on August 25, 2016
I'm confused by your confusion. If I want to invite everyone in my neighborhood over to my house for a BBQ and I can post it in 1 place and let them all know why is that an issue? It's exclusive for a reason: my house only holds about 50 people max. It's certainly more inclusive than creating a private facebook ground and then moderating it with my own prejudices.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:10 AM on August 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:10 AM on August 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
We still just print out paper flyers for neighborhood BBQs and walk around and put them in everyone's mailbox.
posted by octothorpe at 11:13 AM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:13 AM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unless literally everyone in your neighborhood has an account on Nextdoor, you cannot invite them all through it.
Neighborhood barbecues and block parties existed long before Nextdoor. Long before the internet. You invite people in person, and by posting flyers.
In my experience, those types of things sometimes crop up organically, too, and people get invited just by being in the vicinity.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:39 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Neighborhood barbecues and block parties existed long before Nextdoor. Long before the internet. You invite people in person, and by posting flyers.
In my experience, those types of things sometimes crop up organically, too, and people get invited just by being in the vicinity.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:39 AM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Nextdoor."
Huh. Wonder if I ever signed up for that.
Looks like I did! Well let's see what my neighbors are talking about....
OH HELL NAW
*deletes app*
Whatever they did isn't working
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:40 AM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Huh. Wonder if I ever signed up for that.
Looks like I did! Well let's see what my neighbors are talking about....
OH HELL NAW
*deletes app*
Whatever they did isn't working
posted by BitterOldPunk at 11:40 AM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
My experience with NextDoor lately has been similar to Mayor West's, although I also live in a diverse neighborhood like AFABoulus and soren_lorenson. People are still fond of dog whistles and raising a fuss over nebulously suspicious activity as perpetrated by brown people, except there are also plenty of people of color to call them out about it, so the threads devolve into huge shitfights about "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST I'M RACIST." My local NextDoor also loves calling the police about everything under the sun. Sometimes the depth and breadth of busybody-ness is so comical that I'm tempted to make a satiric Tumblr compiling greatest hits.
posted by zeusianfog at 11:42 AM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zeusianfog at 11:42 AM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can Nextdoor do something similar for coyote posts?
Nobody cares if they eliminate thousands of vermin, but if one Bichon Frise goes missing two suburbs over...everyone loses their freaking minds.
posted by Esteemed Offendi at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
Nobody cares if they eliminate thousands of vermin, but if one Bichon Frise goes missing two suburbs over...everyone loses their freaking minds.
posted by Esteemed Offendi at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
The exclusion serves to keep all the Russian astroturfing trolls and reddit brigading racists out of your neighborhood discussion. It also helps keep people accountable - it is easier to engage with people you feel somewhat accountable to (because you see them in person every day) as opposed to mrredunderpants49284 who might not even be a real person. You still have the deal with racists but much less frequently, and with some hope of changing their minds.
posted by ChrisHartley at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChrisHartley at 11:45 AM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I signed up for this thing thinking I'd hear about garage sales and stuff and hooo boy, the posts about "suspicious activity" from shut-ins who distrust humanity are overwhelming. In my shabby little corner of the world, the worst of the vitriol is directed at the homeless. Maybe that can be Nextdoor's next social justice goal. :(
posted by trunk muffins at 11:53 AM on August 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by trunk muffins at 11:53 AM on August 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm never going to get a chance to share this anywhere else, so: the largest amount of emotional labor I've ever put into a written piece, I put into a post on NextDoor. There was (is?) a guy known to wander around the huge park at the top of my old street. One day, a woman reported that he'd approached her and exposed himself. A couple of other women chimed in with "OMG, that's horrible, here's the phone number for Detective XYZ at the precinct." It took almost a day for the brigadiers of the 101st Fighting Keyboard Division to arrive, and then they wasted little time chiding her for walking by herself, in broad daylight, in such a potentially-dangerous park. One guy really went off on her, demanding to know why she was going to make this guy's life hell by reporting him so that he gets classified as a sex offender, because maybe it was all just a misunderstanding, or maybe she'd been coming onto him. Four other women chimed in to report similar experiences. At this point, he decided to double down, and came back with a compelling rejoinder: "It was just a penis. If it offends you to see that, you really ought to take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror."
Reader, I tamped down the reflexive hellstorm that I wanted to fire his way, and I wrote that dude a 2000-word missive on rape culture and why he was contributing to it and how he could do a better job of making women feel safe. I received a pithy "You're defending this lying woman. Sad." for my troubles.
So basically what I'm saying here is, great job stomping out casual racism, NextDoor, and if you come up with an algorithm that detects horrible misogynists typing on their phone and zaps them with whatever wattage the battery can put out, you will make a million billion dollars.
posted by Mayor West at 12:22 PM on August 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
Reader, I tamped down the reflexive hellstorm that I wanted to fire his way, and I wrote that dude a 2000-word missive on rape culture and why he was contributing to it and how he could do a better job of making women feel safe. I received a pithy "You're defending this lying woman. Sad." for my troubles.
So basically what I'm saying here is, great job stomping out casual racism, NextDoor, and if you come up with an algorithm that detects horrible misogynists typing on their phone and zaps them with whatever wattage the battery can put out, you will make a million billion dollars.
posted by Mayor West at 12:22 PM on August 25, 2016 [15 favorites]
When I read the original article about Nextdoor's racial profiling problem, I assumed it was one of those tech things that just wasn't going to fix (unless it got well past the point of extremely egregious, like the internet mapping thing), so it was a pleasant surprise to see this.
However, I think it would have been massively harder if the CEO hadn't also been a person of colour. It's so much easier for Mr Inevitable White Dude CEO to dismiss and disregard stuff like this when it happens to marginalised people via lousy tech implementation or moderation, and blame how the system was made (like they can't fix it) or refuse to acknowledge that anything is wrong. A gym near me got a ton of flack recently for the way they coded the passes - anyone with the title Dr only and automatically got access to the men's locker room, which was a problem when a female paediatrician joined. They claimed it was too hard to re-code the system to acknowledge that it's possible to be both a woman and a doctor.
My own company's CEO, when asked about the lack of diversity (specifically gender diversity - we're also overwhelmingly white, young and able-presenting too but that's barely even on the radar) in a group of recent hires at a Q&A session recently, basically wound up saying that he really wished he could do something about the lack of women in the company but he thought the problems were systemic to society and there was nothing that he-as-a-leader or we-as-a-company could do to change the people coming into our pipeline. Even though that's just not true. But at least he's wishing, right.
It's so easy to be very successful and assume that the level of effort you felt you put in was equal to the magnitude of your success, so everyone else isn't trying hard enough to not be poor/unemployed/downtrodden/whatever. It's easy, if your life just works and always has, to assume other people are at fault for theirs turning out worse than yours. To assume that the worst of your misfortunes is roughly equal to the worst of much less fortunate people's misfortunes and they just won't buck up, because you've never been close enough to the experiences you get if you're not bang at the top of the heap of life to develop empathy.
My CEO's never going to get it because he thinks women all want to go off and have babies and that's sad but it's also their choice and they never really make much of their careers afterwards. Like they're not trying hard enough. So of course they're not trying hard enough to get themselves into his hiring pipeline, or they can't because blah blah society not my problem - that's why he's wishing rather than doing.
posted by terretu at 12:36 PM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
However, I think it would have been massively harder if the CEO hadn't also been a person of colour. It's so much easier for Mr Inevitable White Dude CEO to dismiss and disregard stuff like this when it happens to marginalised people via lousy tech implementation or moderation, and blame how the system was made (like they can't fix it) or refuse to acknowledge that anything is wrong. A gym near me got a ton of flack recently for the way they coded the passes - anyone with the title Dr only and automatically got access to the men's locker room, which was a problem when a female paediatrician joined. They claimed it was too hard to re-code the system to acknowledge that it's possible to be both a woman and a doctor.
My own company's CEO, when asked about the lack of diversity (specifically gender diversity - we're also overwhelmingly white, young and able-presenting too but that's barely even on the radar) in a group of recent hires at a Q&A session recently, basically wound up saying that he really wished he could do something about the lack of women in the company but he thought the problems were systemic to society and there was nothing that he-as-a-leader or we-as-a-company could do to change the people coming into our pipeline. Even though that's just not true. But at least he's wishing, right.
It's so easy to be very successful and assume that the level of effort you felt you put in was equal to the magnitude of your success, so everyone else isn't trying hard enough to not be poor/unemployed/downtrodden/whatever. It's easy, if your life just works and always has, to assume other people are at fault for theirs turning out worse than yours. To assume that the worst of your misfortunes is roughly equal to the worst of much less fortunate people's misfortunes and they just won't buck up, because you've never been close enough to the experiences you get if you're not bang at the top of the heap of life to develop empathy.
My CEO's never going to get it because he thinks women all want to go off and have babies and that's sad but it's also their choice and they never really make much of their careers afterwards. Like they're not trying hard enough. So of course they're not trying hard enough to get themselves into his hiring pipeline, or they can't because blah blah society not my problem - that's why he's wishing rather than doing.
posted by terretu at 12:36 PM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
My experience with NextDoor is a mix of "not much racial profiling, probably because you know your black and Latino neighbors will definitely see it and judge you" and then occasionally eruptions of racism, like popping zits, involving the racist parties doubling down and being told off. My neighborhood is a gentrifying one*, though, and I think that's also underlying some of the tension--especially when you have slightly run-down thirty-year-old $130,000 houses down two or three streets from $300,000 brand new super-trendy houses, with different gradations of house expensiveness on each street in between. Like, the class differential street-by-street is enormous.
Mostly it's people saying they've found stray dogs, to be honest. (We have a lot of loose dogs. I know for a fact that some people let their dogs roam loose, and I heavily suspect that my neighborhood is a bit of a dumping ground for some other people's unwanted dogs.) There's also the odd cat posting, people selling stuff, people hosting neighborhood events, people asking if anything knows anything about weird stuff they saw/heard (usually like 'did I see... is that a car on fire?!?' or 'hey, did anyone hear a car backfire?', not anything with descriptions of people attached), people looking for recs or advertising recs for local service people, that sort of thing. There's also a lot of complaining about our shitty-ass homeowner's association. Most of it is pretty innocuous. (I actually joined NextDoor because a friend in another state was going on about it being a popcorn-worthy source of racist drama, and I wanted to see some drama I didn't have to deal with! Instead it wound up being a pretty awesome source of hyperlocal discussion.)
That said, we do get some stuff about local crime. There was a bad shooting recently where two teenagers broke into someone's house, found a gun, and one of them accidentally killed the other, and there's been a persistent problem with bored teenagers breaking into people's unlocked cars. The worst I've seen--and I just went and looked because I couldn't remember--was a bunch of people saying things like 'I think there should really be cameras everywhere,' stuff like that. I'm not seeing race mentioned at all in most of the reports of "I saw or heard a suspicious thing!", and the one "suspicious activity!" post I could find that did specify a race was specifying a white woman.
*for which I am partially at fault, because I suddenly saw a chance to own a house, which would not have been possible anywhere else I could live... but also, I am a white grad student moving into a predominantly black and Latino neighborhood. :/
posted by sciatrix at 12:36 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mostly it's people saying they've found stray dogs, to be honest. (We have a lot of loose dogs. I know for a fact that some people let their dogs roam loose, and I heavily suspect that my neighborhood is a bit of a dumping ground for some other people's unwanted dogs.) There's also the odd cat posting, people selling stuff, people hosting neighborhood events, people asking if anything knows anything about weird stuff they saw/heard (usually like 'did I see... is that a car on fire?!?' or 'hey, did anyone hear a car backfire?', not anything with descriptions of people attached), people looking for recs or advertising recs for local service people, that sort of thing. There's also a lot of complaining about our shitty-ass homeowner's association. Most of it is pretty innocuous. (I actually joined NextDoor because a friend in another state was going on about it being a popcorn-worthy source of racist drama, and I wanted to see some drama I didn't have to deal with! Instead it wound up being a pretty awesome source of hyperlocal discussion.)
That said, we do get some stuff about local crime. There was a bad shooting recently where two teenagers broke into someone's house, found a gun, and one of them accidentally killed the other, and there's been a persistent problem with bored teenagers breaking into people's unlocked cars. The worst I've seen--and I just went and looked because I couldn't remember--was a bunch of people saying things like 'I think there should really be cameras everywhere,' stuff like that. I'm not seeing race mentioned at all in most of the reports of "I saw or heard a suspicious thing!", and the one "suspicious activity!" post I could find that did specify a race was specifying a white woman.
*for which I am partially at fault, because I suddenly saw a chance to own a house, which would not have been possible anywhere else I could live... but also, I am a white grad student moving into a predominantly black and Latino neighborhood. :/
posted by sciatrix at 12:36 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have never touched this this because I REALLY don't want to know what my neighbors are thinking. I'm having trouble imagining another viewpoint, honestly.
We get a few OH NOES KIDS WITH HOODIES posts now and then, but mostly what I've learned is that there are hawks in our neighborhood so you need to be careful with letting out your cats/small dogs. And I feel bad for the pets but also hawks are awesome and I hope I spot them soon.
Every day, there is a new found-dog notice, some of them are escape artists and some are dumped; we have some active Humane Society/foster types on the board, so they have good info on what to do with pets you find.
Also you can get local recs for good plumbers, roofers, etc.
It was also useful to get a heads-up that the driveway-painting-scammers were making the rounds.
You can flag your own house for Halloween as "We Give Candy Here" if you want more kids to come by.
It has uses, is what I'm saying. I am relieved they are pushing back on racism.
posted by emjaybee at 1:27 PM on August 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
We get a few OH NOES KIDS WITH HOODIES posts now and then, but mostly what I've learned is that there are hawks in our neighborhood so you need to be careful with letting out your cats/small dogs. And I feel bad for the pets but also hawks are awesome and I hope I spot them soon.
Every day, there is a new found-dog notice, some of them are escape artists and some are dumped; we have some active Humane Society/foster types on the board, so they have good info on what to do with pets you find.
Also you can get local recs for good plumbers, roofers, etc.
It was also useful to get a heads-up that the driveway-painting-scammers were making the rounds.
You can flag your own house for Halloween as "We Give Candy Here" if you want more kids to come by.
It has uses, is what I'm saying. I am relieved they are pushing back on racism.
posted by emjaybee at 1:27 PM on August 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
I live in a very white part of central LA (a mix of different "white" cultures, however, and heavily orthodox Jewish) in a neighborhood that is expensive (houses now in the $1-3M range, gone up a lot) but also fairly high crime (we rank in the top 5 out of 209 neighborhoods for property crime, and in the top 25 out of 209 neighborhoods for violent crime according to LA Times statistics).
So, despite being in a supposedly liberal area (and in a general political sense it is, everyone was either a Hillary or Bernie supporter, primarily Bernie) its also super racist on Nextdoor. Basically exactly this -- people will post pictures of "suspicious" (black) people in the neighborhood. Also there is a center LGBT youth nearby that gets a ton of hate/suspicion. But mostly its black people that get singled out (in some cases for such "suspicious" activity as... bicycling around the block while black. In that case, the guy who posted actually followed him around taking pictures and then posted them to Nextdoor...).
I mean, mostly the posts are for-sale, lost pets, etc. But there are a decent number of these as well. It will be interesting to see if this changes any of that.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:32 PM on August 25, 2016
So, despite being in a supposedly liberal area (and in a general political sense it is, everyone was either a Hillary or Bernie supporter, primarily Bernie) its also super racist on Nextdoor. Basically exactly this -- people will post pictures of "suspicious" (black) people in the neighborhood. Also there is a center LGBT youth nearby that gets a ton of hate/suspicion. But mostly its black people that get singled out (in some cases for such "suspicious" activity as... bicycling around the block while black. In that case, the guy who posted actually followed him around taking pictures and then posted them to Nextdoor...).
I mean, mostly the posts are for-sale, lost pets, etc. But there are a decent number of these as well. It will be interesting to see if this changes any of that.
posted by thefoxgod at 1:32 PM on August 25, 2016
I mean LOOK at this adorable baby hawk that was two streets down from me, ya'll. Quality information off my Nextdoor.
posted by emjaybee at 2:00 PM on August 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 2:00 PM on August 25, 2016 [7 favorites]
Ironically, I've seen the first major outbreaks of racism in my nextdoor neighborhood just in the last month or so, but that's more to do with our city hall getting national news attention for hanging a Black Lives Matter banner (and the resulting protest by the head of the police union) than anything inherent in the site.
Our crime/safety section is more or less a ghost town, averaging one or two posts a month. Not sure exactly why that is, whether it's a representation of racial harmony or just an indication that in my neighborhood the gentrifiers have well and truly conquered, leaving no one to complain about.
posted by firechicago at 2:24 PM on August 25, 2016
Our crime/safety section is more or less a ghost town, averaging one or two posts a month. Not sure exactly why that is, whether it's a representation of racial harmony or just an indication that in my neighborhood the gentrifiers have well and truly conquered, leaving no one to complain about.
posted by firechicago at 2:24 PM on August 25, 2016
It's great that so many of you guys live in such civil communities that a private forum in which you can discuss local issues doesn't devolve into nasty gossip, but I can pretty much guarantee that my local community is full of shut-ins complaining about other people's lawns, speculating on the motives of people who walk past their houses, and other assorted bullshit like that.
It would be really nice to have a forum to discuss local issues. We have tons of predators in the area--hawks and coyotes among them--and we need pretty much constant PSAs about things like hazing and keeping small pets indoors. But if that's happening on Nextdoor, those messages aren't getting out to those who need them. Just last night, in fact, there was a huge coyote ruckus around 11PM. They were completely surrounding our house, and sounded as though they'd caught something unusually large, and yeah, I'd like to know if another one of my neighbors lost a pet. And last week, the police closed a major portion of road for about an hour or two, for no reason apparent to anyone I talked to.
If the neighborhood busybodies really want a private forum where they can gossip about people and post stalky pictures of them behind their backs, that's one (gross) thing. And I do believe those who've said they use it for other purposes, too, although I still don't think it's necessary or worth the tradeoffs.
But if the police and other public servants are using a private service like this to communicate with the public, that's fucked up. There is no reason in the world they shouldn't just publish those things in a public forum where everyone can see them. People should not be required to sign up for invasive, privately owned services like this in order to have access to community services.
posted by ernielundquist at 2:29 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
It would be really nice to have a forum to discuss local issues. We have tons of predators in the area--hawks and coyotes among them--and we need pretty much constant PSAs about things like hazing and keeping small pets indoors. But if that's happening on Nextdoor, those messages aren't getting out to those who need them. Just last night, in fact, there was a huge coyote ruckus around 11PM. They were completely surrounding our house, and sounded as though they'd caught something unusually large, and yeah, I'd like to know if another one of my neighbors lost a pet. And last week, the police closed a major portion of road for about an hour or two, for no reason apparent to anyone I talked to.
If the neighborhood busybodies really want a private forum where they can gossip about people and post stalky pictures of them behind their backs, that's one (gross) thing. And I do believe those who've said they use it for other purposes, too, although I still don't think it's necessary or worth the tradeoffs.
But if the police and other public servants are using a private service like this to communicate with the public, that's fucked up. There is no reason in the world they shouldn't just publish those things in a public forum where everyone can see them. People should not be required to sign up for invasive, privately owned services like this in order to have access to community services.
posted by ernielundquist at 2:29 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
In my area, the police do post on Nextdoor but also on Twitter, at least. Possibly other places too.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:33 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thefoxgod at 2:33 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Washington County in Vermont has a local website for several towns that operates like an old-fashioned listserv in a lot of ways, except very accessible and searchable. There is occasionally nonsense about chemtrails, fluoridation, and Killary,* but this is mostly just local color. Everyone is largely on good behavior (except about unleashed dogs) and it's a great place to buy, trade, sell, and find small local events. I'm afraid this is largely a function of having a small, longtime local population, though. I don't know how you could make it scale up.
----
* My favorite was when some old guy said Hillary was a member of the Order of the Blue Orient, a shadowy org that had plotted the killing of JFK and others. I looked it up. Turns out Blue Orient is a china pattern. He probably meant the Grand Orient, but I was so pleased by the image that I couldn't correct him.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:47 PM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
----
* My favorite was when some old guy said Hillary was a member of the Order of the Blue Orient, a shadowy org that had plotted the killing of JFK and others. I looked it up. Turns out Blue Orient is a china pattern. He probably meant the Grand Orient, but I was so pleased by the image that I couldn't correct him.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:47 PM on August 25, 2016 [8 favorites]
Relevant post on Coding Horror earlier today, same topic.
posted by mammal at 2:53 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mammal at 2:53 PM on August 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
I like to believe that I do my part to keep my local NextDoor in line by having my picture in my profile and being reasonably active -- not super active, but enough to remind people that there is a black lady in their midst. AFAICT (most people on NextDoor are eggs) I'm the only POC in my neighborhood group.
NextDoor lets you see things from your neighborhood and "surrounding neighborhoods." My "surrounding neighborhoods" include a mixture of more diverse, poorer neighborhoods in St. Paul, whiter wealthier suburbs (like Falcon Heights, where Philando Castille was shot).
I have to say that racial profiling wise, it hasn't been too bad. Most of the crime/suspicious activity has involved white folks stealing packages (and getting caught on security cameras b/c criminals are dumb). There are a few people who are up in arms about the fact that more planes are apparently being routed over the area than usual which will "destroy" our property values (we are at least 10 miles as the crow flies from the airport -- the planes are not that low). Others are highly put out by road construction detours increasing traffic on one of the wider (but usually deader) streets. Basically uppity nosy neighbor stuff. I can handle it.
Given our location and recent events, there have been a couple of flat-out racist flareups, one in a thread by a reasonably well-meaning person giving a head's up about a Black Lives Matter protest planned for the large mall nearby who got called out (by another white member) for posting it in Crime and Suspicious Activity -- I don't know if the All Lives Matter screeds would have happened without the call out, I bet they would have.
The latest is puzzling me, because a different white dude posted asking if anyone was interested in a neighborhood coffee meeting to discuss "race issues," which I thought was a nice gesture and I was considering attending. But yesterday the thread took a turn and the guy who seemed like he was ready for a real conversation on race went on a rant about "sharia law" and "white slavery" in response to someone bringing up white privilege. So now I feel like I'd be walking into a viper's nest. I might yet post an Ask to help me decide if it's worth the pain in my soul to try to reach those sorts of people -- I'm thinking the answer is no.
Anyways, NextDoor is a land of contrasts -- I'm glad they are doing something about the crime&safety racial profiling. I'm also glad that most of my neighbors aren't willing to act like racists when I'm around.
posted by sparklemotion at 3:06 PM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
NextDoor lets you see things from your neighborhood and "surrounding neighborhoods." My "surrounding neighborhoods" include a mixture of more diverse, poorer neighborhoods in St. Paul, whiter wealthier suburbs (like Falcon Heights, where Philando Castille was shot).
I have to say that racial profiling wise, it hasn't been too bad. Most of the crime/suspicious activity has involved white folks stealing packages (and getting caught on security cameras b/c criminals are dumb). There are a few people who are up in arms about the fact that more planes are apparently being routed over the area than usual which will "destroy" our property values (we are at least 10 miles as the crow flies from the airport -- the planes are not that low). Others are highly put out by road construction detours increasing traffic on one of the wider (but usually deader) streets. Basically uppity nosy neighbor stuff. I can handle it.
Given our location and recent events, there have been a couple of flat-out racist flareups, one in a thread by a reasonably well-meaning person giving a head's up about a Black Lives Matter protest planned for the large mall nearby who got called out (by another white member) for posting it in Crime and Suspicious Activity -- I don't know if the All Lives Matter screeds would have happened without the call out, I bet they would have.
The latest is puzzling me, because a different white dude posted asking if anyone was interested in a neighborhood coffee meeting to discuss "race issues," which I thought was a nice gesture and I was considering attending. But yesterday the thread took a turn and the guy who seemed like he was ready for a real conversation on race went on a rant about "sharia law" and "white slavery" in response to someone bringing up white privilege. So now I feel like I'd be walking into a viper's nest. I might yet post an Ask to help me decide if it's worth the pain in my soul to try to reach those sorts of people -- I'm thinking the answer is no.
Anyways, NextDoor is a land of contrasts -- I'm glad they are doing something about the crime&safety racial profiling. I'm also glad that most of my neighbors aren't willing to act like racists when I'm around.
posted by sparklemotion at 3:06 PM on August 25, 2016 [9 favorites]
Dibs on "Order of the Blue Orient" as a sock puppet.
posted by persona au gratin at 3:47 PM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 3:47 PM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I liked that they used actual sciencey methods to test their changes. I am super unpersuaded by the company's claim that "it was made aware of only two instances of racial profiling that had slipped through its algorithms in the last few months". That is such an implausible figure that it makes me doubt whether they're actually committed to this.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:14 PM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:14 PM on August 25, 2016 [2 favorites]
I live in Whitey McWhiteville & I registered for Nextdoor about a year ago & lasted for about 3 days-worth of "black person seen walking down 30th street" before I shitcanned that cesspit. It just made me feel horrible about my neighbors in a way I haven't really gotten over, yet.
May have to take another look if it really has changed in the last 6 months, but I fear my neighbors haven't. Ugh.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:57 PM on August 25, 2016
May have to take another look if it really has changed in the last 6 months, but I fear my neighbors haven't. Ugh.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:57 PM on August 25, 2016
The pizza drama is still going on, four days and 38 comments later. Latest comment, from the OP: "Did you read all the commentary or did you just want to pee on yourself and think you are clever?"
Yes, these are adults, arguing over pizza.
posted by AFABulous at 6:04 PM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, these are adults, arguing over pizza.
posted by AFABulous at 6:04 PM on August 25, 2016 [5 favorites]
Our neighborhood group is mostly people asking for the number of that nail place behind the Shop Rite, and posting reminders about the Catholic church's education program ("Sister Martha needs someone to bring bagels"). We are about to undergo a lengthy road project so I'll gird my loins now.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:40 PM on August 25, 2016
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:40 PM on August 25, 2016
Huh. I have a Pre-paid cell and my debit card wouldn't go thru, so I'm waiting on my postcard. Interesting to see what the neighbors are up to.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:11 PM on August 25, 2016
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:11 PM on August 25, 2016
Mostly my Nextdoor feed is about selling used furniture. I didn't even realize there was a crime and safety tab. The last post there is from July 10, and there really was a serious crime.
The best thing though is from April, when someone complained bitterly about the noise from Spike Lee's dance party on the night Prince died (which I attended and thought was wonderful, also it ended promptly at 10pm). It was typical of those threads in NYC that devolve into "What has Spike Lee ever done for this community", "You're obviously not a real New Yorker" "Oh yeah I was born and raised here you're as real New York as Fresh Direct" etc, etc. About 30 comments in someone posted "Prince died?"
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:13 PM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
The best thing though is from April, when someone complained bitterly about the noise from Spike Lee's dance party on the night Prince died (which I attended and thought was wonderful, also it ended promptly at 10pm). It was typical of those threads in NYC that devolve into "What has Spike Lee ever done for this community", "You're obviously not a real New Yorker" "Oh yeah I was born and raised here you're as real New York as Fresh Direct" etc, etc. About 30 comments in someone posted "Prince died?"
posted by maggiemaggie at 8:13 PM on August 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm another person with a NextDoor group that's just yard-sale notices and requests for contractors. The only crime reports I've ever seen were a couple about people's cars getting rifled through. If I want the drama, I need to go to the local community forums on Facebook.
posted by adamg at 8:56 PM on August 25, 2016
posted by adamg at 8:56 PM on August 25, 2016
I think some of whether you have a good Next Door or a bad Next Door has to do with how the early adopters set the tone. Locally we've had a problem with the same group of racist morons being early adopters of basically all these communication platforms (city.com was an early one, patch forums IIRC, now Next Door), and since we have some high-quality local platforms that are moderated (such as a small blog that covers local news), people upset by the racism tend to sort away from the unmoderated spaces really quickly, leaving any unmoderated community space full of angry mouthy racists who get shut down on other community forums, which sets the tone that racist speech is okay on Next Door, or Local Facebook Garage Sale Group X, or whatever, and once it's there it tends to multiply. Basically it's the local newspaper unmoderated comments section up in there, 24/7. And at least when I was using it, which was pretty early on, there wasn't any way to block or report or flag people who did that, and complaining to Next Door did nothing (and complaining to the city, which was pushing it as a local communication platform, also did nothing). I noped out pretty quickly so I don't know how their reporting/flagging/banning/blocking tools developed after the very early iterations. But it was real filth (and I am not naive in the ways of the internet trollborhood), and it was intensely upsetting because it was filth spewing from someone who lived three blocks from you. I thought it was crazy inappropriate that the city was using it for official communications; at least when those idiots (I know exactly who they are!) get up at city council meetings, they turn off the microphone and rule them out of order when they try to get ugly.
Anyway. If I hear it dramatically improves possibly I will check it out again; I think these are good changes and would, in fact, stop some of the ugliness. But it just made me sick with stress because it was so miserably awful so I'm not exactly waiting in line to try again.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:28 PM on August 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Anyway. If I hear it dramatically improves possibly I will check it out again; I think these are good changes and would, in fact, stop some of the ugliness. But it just made me sick with stress because it was so miserably awful so I'm not exactly waiting in line to try again.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:28 PM on August 25, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe I live in a uniquely harmonious area, but I haven't seen the extreme examples of racism that others have cited.
The vast majority of posts seem to be of the benign "garage sale" or "community event" or "free stuff at the curb" variety, rather than the potentially more controversial "neighborhood watch" or "crime report" variety.
I can think of a single post that even mentioned crime and (tangentially) race: a woman reported that a scooter was stolen from her house and shared frames from a security camera that captured images of the thieves, with a description of those thieves that included identification of race. The discussion on that post did get somewhat controversial.
posted by theorique at 6:57 AM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
The vast majority of posts seem to be of the benign "garage sale" or "community event" or "free stuff at the curb" variety, rather than the potentially more controversial "neighborhood watch" or "crime report" variety.
I can think of a single post that even mentioned crime and (tangentially) race: a woman reported that a scooter was stolen from her house and shared frames from a security camera that captured images of the thieves, with a description of those thieves that included identification of race. The discussion on that post did get somewhat controversial.
posted by theorique at 6:57 AM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Maybe I live in a uniquely harmonious area, but I haven't seen the extreme examples of racism that others have cited."
I think it's very, very much about the tone that gets set and the availability of other venues. Like, we have much better and more comprehensive local places for garage sale and lost pet info (provided and managed by a city neighborhoods department); Next Door wasn't filling a need for that sort of thing. But turned out to be unwittingly filling a need for racists to have an unmoderated hyperlocal space to spew vitriol.
I don't think my neighborhood is particularly racist (considerably less so, frankly, than some surrounding white flight suburbs that have very "polite" online communities but horrific structural racism baked in and enthusiastically supported by the community). Next Door turned out to provide an outlet for the small percentage of jerks and -- and this is what upset me about the service -- had zero way to combat that. So instead of fighting back against those voices, as most other public spaces in my community would, Next Door provided them a venue to amplify and normalize their bigotry.
Again I don't know what changes prior to this crime report change the service has made to combat this problem; it may have improved considerably for all I know, and I think the crime report change is good and thoughtful. But yeah, it was just a Wild West of unmoderated chatter with no tools to combat racism, abuse, harassment, or even just off-topic nonsense. Trolls, cranks, and jerks realized pretty quickly it was a space friendly to them because it had no rules, and everyone else fled to the pre-existing sites and spaces in the community that didn't provide as much functionality but also had a grown-up in charge. Abandoning Next Door to an ever-larger percentage of jerks.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:13 AM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it's very, very much about the tone that gets set and the availability of other venues. Like, we have much better and more comprehensive local places for garage sale and lost pet info (provided and managed by a city neighborhoods department); Next Door wasn't filling a need for that sort of thing. But turned out to be unwittingly filling a need for racists to have an unmoderated hyperlocal space to spew vitriol.
I don't think my neighborhood is particularly racist (considerably less so, frankly, than some surrounding white flight suburbs that have very "polite" online communities but horrific structural racism baked in and enthusiastically supported by the community). Next Door turned out to provide an outlet for the small percentage of jerks and -- and this is what upset me about the service -- had zero way to combat that. So instead of fighting back against those voices, as most other public spaces in my community would, Next Door provided them a venue to amplify and normalize their bigotry.
Again I don't know what changes prior to this crime report change the service has made to combat this problem; it may have improved considerably for all I know, and I think the crime report change is good and thoughtful. But yeah, it was just a Wild West of unmoderated chatter with no tools to combat racism, abuse, harassment, or even just off-topic nonsense. Trolls, cranks, and jerks realized pretty quickly it was a space friendly to them because it had no rules, and everyone else fled to the pre-existing sites and spaces in the community that didn't provide as much functionality but also had a grown-up in charge. Abandoning Next Door to an ever-larger percentage of jerks.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:13 AM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm still surprised that the "real world" nature of Nextdoor doesn't put more of a damper on this kind of thing: I would expect that using real names and real physical addresses[1] would foster a higher standard of politeness and good manners.
However, I suppose when people get defensive and protective of their homes and neighborhoods, that kind of thing can go out the window.
(Still grateful that the Nextdoor in my area is good natured and sorry to hear that this experience is not more universal.)
[1] which can be gleaned from public records, but still...
posted by theorique at 8:00 AM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
However, I suppose when people get defensive and protective of their homes and neighborhoods, that kind of thing can go out the window.
(Still grateful that the Nextdoor in my area is good natured and sorry to hear that this experience is not more universal.)
[1] which can be gleaned from public records, but still...
posted by theorique at 8:00 AM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've recently begun attending anti-racism meetings and workshops and they have changed my approach to social media/comments/listserv bigots entirely. I no longer hide/block or quit said groups but try to speak up in a straightforward but non escalating way. A
I now view myself as part of the problem if I see how effed these forums are and say nothing. I know I'm not likely to change hearts and minds this way but I hope people who feel disgusted as I did or directly endangered or terrorized by these people will see that someone also hears the dog-whistle. It's tricky to do without getting overly ragey or way too emotionally invested in the outcome (usually there is none) but in my experience that can backfire fast. Firm but less antagonistic ( in online settings) and maybe more will join in and tip the scales. Seems like this approach could help on platforms that don't bother to intervene when these groups get evil...
posted by Lisitasan at 8:37 AM on August 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I now view myself as part of the problem if I see how effed these forums are and say nothing. I know I'm not likely to change hearts and minds this way but I hope people who feel disgusted as I did or directly endangered or terrorized by these people will see that someone also hears the dog-whistle. It's tricky to do without getting overly ragey or way too emotionally invested in the outcome (usually there is none) but in my experience that can backfire fast. Firm but less antagonistic ( in online settings) and maybe more will join in and tip the scales. Seems like this approach could help on platforms that don't bother to intervene when these groups get evil...
posted by Lisitasan at 8:37 AM on August 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I suppose when people get defensive and protective of their homes and neighborhoods, that kind of thing can go out the window.
Yeah, the posts on mine often have a sort of "Well I'm not racist but we have to do something about the crime and.... " (and then go on to imply/state that "doing something" necessarily involves profiling and racism). Its possible there would be less of this if it wasn't a high crime area. But there is a lot of popular restaurants/retail around here and we live in a diverse city, even if the residents are very white, so its hardly surprising to see non-residents walking around / parking on our streets. But of course only the visible non residents (minorities) get the suspicion. I don't think I've ever seen one of those posts about a white person.
posted by thefoxgod at 12:40 PM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the posts on mine often have a sort of "Well I'm not racist but we have to do something about the crime and.... " (and then go on to imply/state that "doing something" necessarily involves profiling and racism). Its possible there would be less of this if it wasn't a high crime area. But there is a lot of popular restaurants/retail around here and we live in a diverse city, even if the residents are very white, so its hardly surprising to see non-residents walking around / parking on our streets. But of course only the visible non residents (minorities) get the suspicion. I don't think I've ever seen one of those posts about a white person.
posted by thefoxgod at 12:40 PM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Eyebrows, they've now implemented a mechanism to flag posts and comments, but I've only ever used it to complain about the blowhard who posts blank comments on his own posts about his stupid neighborhood meetings to boost the signal and make them "the most talked about posts on NextDoor," so YMMV.
posted by zeusianfog at 12:43 PM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zeusianfog at 12:43 PM on August 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
I kind of love Next Door. Mine is plagued with angry discussions about homelessness, and hearing about your neighbors' houses getting broken into makes one paranoid -- but my newsletter today also includes someone giving away "adorable dog clothes" and a "free bag of plastic hangers", a person looking for a lost chicken, and a long argument between people who think we should leave porch lights on (to help pedestrians not trip on the sidewalk) vs people who think we should turn porch lights off (to help migrating birds and starwatchers). Oh, and someone asking us to come support her daughter's Black Lives Matter-supporting lemonade stand.
Eyebrows McGee's idea that early adopters set the tone is probably true...also there are moderators on Nextdoor (they're called "neighborhood leads") but I think they are volunteers and your moderator-fu probably varies a lot.
posted by hungrytiger at 10:52 PM on August 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee's idea that early adopters set the tone is probably true...also there are moderators on Nextdoor (they're called "neighborhood leads") but I think they are volunteers and your moderator-fu probably varies a lot.
posted by hungrytiger at 10:52 PM on August 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
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posted by KaizenSoze at 9:47 AM on August 25, 2016 [6 favorites]