It’s...still the mid-Paleolithic period for far too many.
August 30, 2016 11:34 AM Subscribe
A Canadian newspaper peppers its front page with comments from Internet trolls.
It all started when a female reporter wrote about an upcoming women's event. Predictably, certain Internet denizens took up their usual behaviour offering unsolicited opinions about said reporter, the event and women in general. In response, the reporter, Tara Bradbury, produced a column detailing what happened and offering her perspective on what it's like to be a woman in the newsroom, which triggered more responses from the Internet. The paper's managing editor then took his own stand on the situation.
It all started when a female reporter wrote about an upcoming women's event. Predictably, certain Internet denizens took up their usual behaviour offering unsolicited opinions about said reporter, the event and women in general. In response, the reporter, Tara Bradbury, produced a column detailing what happened and offering her perspective on what it's like to be a woman in the newsroom, which triggered more responses from the Internet. The paper's managing editor then took his own stand on the situation.
YAY!!!
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:55 AM on August 30, 2016
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:55 AM on August 30, 2016
Seriously. What's enraging is many comments on those links still insist sexism and misogyny don't exist, or even worse hatefulness. It is 2016, and I am tired, but I am not giving up.
posted by agregoli at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
And now the tweet in the first link is gathering its own trolls, like a piece of dropped candy gathering lint.
posted by LindsayIrene at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The best possible step they can take is to remove the comments box. They are not obliged to provide a soapbox for idiots, and the comments box on news sites serves no real purpose at all.
posted by selfnoise at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2016 [34 favorites]
I for one object to the use of "Paleolithic," "Neanderthal" and such terms in reference to these men. In the Paleolithic period, you couldn't treat the people who produced half the tribe's calories, clothing and labor that way unless you wanted to starve in a nine-month-long winter. Soft devilmen are a product of the Anthropocene.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:07 PM on August 30, 2016 [79 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 12:07 PM on August 30, 2016 [79 favorites]
As someone who is somewhere around 4 percent Neanderthal (more so than 69 percent of the population), thanks for sticking up for us.
posted by maxsparber at 12:10 PM on August 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 12:10 PM on August 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Thankfully, the Whig Standard disabled comments, but for a while, the angry trolls went over to the Kingstonist to complain before realizing that hardly anyone reads that site.
For me, the comments section--especially for hometown newspapers--is pretty much realizing that despite thinking you're not swimming in shit, in actuality, you've already drowned in it.
posted by Kitteh at 12:16 PM on August 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
For me, the comments section--especially for hometown newspapers--is pretty much realizing that despite thinking you're not swimming in shit, in actuality, you've already drowned in it.
posted by Kitteh at 12:16 PM on August 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
For me, the comments section--especially for hometown newspapers--is pretty much realizing that despite thinking you're not swimming in shit, in actuality, you've already drowned in it.
These are the 'conservative values' of most small towns (around the planet), and why I'll never live in one again.
posted by el io at 12:22 PM on August 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
These are the 'conservative values' of most small towns (around the planet), and why I'll never live in one again.
posted by el io at 12:22 PM on August 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
I actually enjoy reading the comments for two reasons: one, it reminds me of what people, particularly men, think outside my liberal bubble, and two, there really are commenters who on occasion bring real local knowledge to a story (sometimes while also being hateful, of course). You'll see the best friend of an alleged child abuser or hippie-puncher pipe up all, "There is SO MUCH MORE to this than people KNOW... There are TWO SIDES to every story people so just remember when you point a finger THREE are pointing back at YOU,!!!"
posted by Countess Elena at 12:23 PM on August 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 12:23 PM on August 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
> For me, the comments section--especially for hometown newspapers--is pretty much realizing that despite thinking you're not swimming in shit, in actuality, you've already drowned in it.
Sometimes I freak myself out a bit walking around and wondering who among the seemingly normal people surrounding me are the trolls spewing this hateful bullshit. That dad playing with his kids in the park? The nice lady who works at the corner shop? My co-workers? My best friend? IT COULD BE ANYONE
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:41 PM on August 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
Sometimes I freak myself out a bit walking around and wondering who among the seemingly normal people surrounding me are the trolls spewing this hateful bullshit. That dad playing with his kids in the park? The nice lady who works at the corner shop? My co-workers? My best friend? IT COULD BE ANYONE
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:41 PM on August 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
...and wondering who among the seemingly normal people surrounding me are the trolls spewing this hateful bullshit.
The Trump signs on my neighbors' lawns were very helpful, before their wives finally prevailed on them to take the things down.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:45 PM on August 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
The Trump signs on my neighbors' lawns were very helpful, before their wives finally prevailed on them to take the things down.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:45 PM on August 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
How does this commenter’s mother, sister, and/or girlfriend feel about his total disregard for women?
Bssed on what I've seen of some trolls, I suspect his mother knows. From the way he screams at her for interrupting his internet time to tell him dinner's ready.
posted by happyroach at 12:49 PM on August 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bssed on what I've seen of some trolls, I suspect his mother knows. From the way he screams at her for interrupting his internet time to tell him dinner's ready.
posted by happyroach at 12:49 PM on August 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
With dudes like that, I try to imagine a backstory involving a neglectful mother or abusive teacher. It's woman-blaming too, in its way, but it's a little easier than facing the fact that an infant in arms, with its soft head and bright eyes, can simply grow up to be human poison ivy, despite the best efforts of everyone concerned.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:52 PM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 12:52 PM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think it's the opposite of neglectful, actually. I think they grow up in massive amounts of privilege that they see autonomous women as an affront to nature, especially if they disagree with their worldview.
posted by happyroach at 12:58 PM on August 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 12:58 PM on August 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
Wow, am I sorry I read those comments on her article. A lotta troglodytes on the Internet, 90% of them male.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:12 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:12 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The comments sank to unwanted depths, but I cannot call them unexpected.
posted by jeather at 1:47 PM on August 30, 2016
posted by jeather at 1:47 PM on August 30, 2016
This is a very good point. It's not trolling if the person really feels that way, and there is far too much misogyny for it to be only folks who are trying to annoy.
posted by agregoli at 2:42 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by agregoli at 2:42 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
These are the 'conservative values' of most small towns (around the planet), and why I'll never live in one again.
It's not any better in big cities. Read the newspaper comment section in SF or San Jose or Los Angeles, its nothing but racism and sexism.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:45 PM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's not any better in big cities. Read the newspaper comment section in SF or San Jose or Los Angeles, its nothing but racism and sexism.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:45 PM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can see why NPR finally disabled comments.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:09 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:09 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not any better in big cities. Read the newspaper comment section in SF or San Jose or Los Angeles, its
To be fair, the commenters there could just as easily be from small towns, frustrated that their local paper no longer gives them an outlet to expound their thoughts on why everyone who is not a straight white conservative male is misguided and should really remember their place.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:30 PM on August 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
To be fair, the commenters there could just as easily be from small towns, frustrated that their local paper no longer gives them an outlet to expound their thoughts on why everyone who is not a straight white conservative male is misguided and should really remember their place.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:30 PM on August 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sure, they could be. But I see no particular reason to believe that other than a desire to believe that small towns are disproportionately sexist or racist.
In my experience, "liberal" big cities are full of both (especially sexism, which is popular with lots of otherwise liberal men). I've spent most of my adult life in SF and LA and there is no lack of it. People vote for Democrats, sure, but that doesn't mean they are feminists or anything. I think people are less up front about it in person because of a sense it should be hidden, but not at all worried about it online (even under their real names).
And as discussed in another thread, Nextdoor is another good eye into this, and at least in my liberal big city (Los Angeles) its absolutely full of both.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:53 PM on August 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
In my experience, "liberal" big cities are full of both (especially sexism, which is popular with lots of otherwise liberal men). I've spent most of my adult life in SF and LA and there is no lack of it. People vote for Democrats, sure, but that doesn't mean they are feminists or anything. I think people are less up front about it in person because of a sense it should be hidden, but not at all worried about it online (even under their real names).
And as discussed in another thread, Nextdoor is another good eye into this, and at least in my liberal big city (Los Angeles) its absolutely full of both.
posted by thefoxgod at 7:53 PM on August 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Kitteh: Thankfully, the Whig Standard disabled comments ... For me, the comments section--especially for hometown newspapers--is pretty much realizing that despite thinking you're not swimming in shit, in actuality, you've already drowned in it.
el io: These are the 'conservative values' of most small towns (around the planet), and why I'll never live in one again.
The frustrating thing is, Kingston is neither a small town (~120k people) or especially conservative, at least not in the political sense (the city has consistently voted Liberal in provincial elections since 1995, and in federal elections since 1988). I mean, we have three post-secondary institutions, and that traditionally skews a city towards the socially liberal, right?
The Whig Standard comment section always left me wondering, like The Card Cheat says, who these people were and where they were hiding? They seemed like the polar opposite of what I understood the people in my personal social circle to be. And yet, somewhere in town there's a core of sexist, racist, LGBT-phobic, Sir John A MacDonald worshiping, bicycle path hating assholes.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 9:00 PM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
el io: These are the 'conservative values' of most small towns (around the planet), and why I'll never live in one again.
The frustrating thing is, Kingston is neither a small town (~120k people) or especially conservative, at least not in the political sense (the city has consistently voted Liberal in provincial elections since 1995, and in federal elections since 1988). I mean, we have three post-secondary institutions, and that traditionally skews a city towards the socially liberal, right?
The Whig Standard comment section always left me wondering, like The Card Cheat says, who these people were and where they were hiding? They seemed like the polar opposite of what I understood the people in my personal social circle to be. And yet, somewhere in town there's a core of sexist, racist, LGBT-phobic, Sir John A MacDonald worshiping, bicycle path hating assholes.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 9:00 PM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
My local rags comments section is where people go to dish the inside dirt on everything from murders to industrial accidents to state level scandals. They have some system where if a comment gets the wrong ratio of up to downvotes it goes away. This has worked gloriously to reduce the amount of time I have to spend scrolling through trolls to get to the part where the scorned mistress chimes in with the real reason so and so was in the park that night. And they use their real names. I have no idea why people around here do this, possibly because they're stupid, but I love it. And the new system works really quite well.
posted by fshgrl at 11:01 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fshgrl at 11:01 PM on August 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it's the opposite of neglectful, actually. I think they grow up in massive amounts of privilege that they see autonomous women as an affront to nature, especially if they disagree with their worldview.
Anecdotes, but I've lived several places and a few decades as an adult now, so – the vast majority of my guy friends who grew up with neglectful mothers are actually very tolerant and egalitarian. We find a lot of common ground in that (I had a neglectful mother), and the thread that comes up is that since mother was so lacking, we found resources elsewhere. It's hard to hate women as a group when you've seen your own mother in pain (as bad as my mother and a few others were, we have a good idea where they learned their abuse, and it usually boils down to patriarchy), and found support and warmth from other women of all ages.
Guy friends who had single mothers, it really depends... (Caveat: obviously there are exceptions, I am generalizing for the sake of brevity.) If they were in elementary school or younger when their parents divorced/separated, or never knew their fathers, generally they're very egalitarian. On the other hand... some of the worst misogynists I know are guys whose mothers left their abusive fathers when they were in middle or high school. There's this seething hatred of "women trying to destroy men" that's a cover for their sense that their mother stole their father from them. And, like, I knew two of the fathers involved very well... they were physically and emotionally abusive, and financially controlling. They were slowly choking the lives of their wives. But by adolescence, societal messages start getting very strong. Their sons mistook their mother's desire to shield them from the abuse as a random act of cruelty, often with poisonous incitements from their fathers on top of it, and oh hey there's all this societal narrative supporting that so IT MUST BE TRUE. It was so sad to watch. You see these guys you've known since preschool, kind and funny, easygoing and sweet, turn into heavy-handed ghouls.
Then there are the guys who grew up in egalitarian families, middle class, parents stayed together, no trauma, and it's like, who the fuck knows why some become misogynists and others remain egalitarian. My ex was like that – his parents, like any human beings, are not perfect, but they're awesome people. His mother is independent, smart, empathetic, straightforward, and adored by her husband. My ex turned into a woman-hating, physically and emotionally abusive dipweed, and literally zero of us understand it. He lost all of his childhood friends over this stuff. They tried talking to him. We all tried talking to him. But boy howdy is he proud of being a sexist and found new friends who support that. Obviously society plays a huge role in that – when we would "discuss" his then-nascent viewpoints, he had no desire to actually listen. He'd read somewhere that women were dumb and manipulative, for instance, so me asking "honey, do you really think all the women you know are like that? Me? Your mother? Your sister?" would be batted aside with "if there's enough proof for it to be written down, it's true! Look, you're trying to manipulate me!!" Sigh. It was like reliving the boys-to-ghouls transformation of two dear friends in middle school.
So yes, publicly saying "this is not okay!" is excellent. If societal pressure can do so much harm, then the more voices saying "nope, not okay," the better.
posted by fraula at 2:12 AM on August 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Anecdotes, but I've lived several places and a few decades as an adult now, so – the vast majority of my guy friends who grew up with neglectful mothers are actually very tolerant and egalitarian. We find a lot of common ground in that (I had a neglectful mother), and the thread that comes up is that since mother was so lacking, we found resources elsewhere. It's hard to hate women as a group when you've seen your own mother in pain (as bad as my mother and a few others were, we have a good idea where they learned their abuse, and it usually boils down to patriarchy), and found support and warmth from other women of all ages.
Guy friends who had single mothers, it really depends... (Caveat: obviously there are exceptions, I am generalizing for the sake of brevity.) If they were in elementary school or younger when their parents divorced/separated, or never knew their fathers, generally they're very egalitarian. On the other hand... some of the worst misogynists I know are guys whose mothers left their abusive fathers when they were in middle or high school. There's this seething hatred of "women trying to destroy men" that's a cover for their sense that their mother stole their father from them. And, like, I knew two of the fathers involved very well... they were physically and emotionally abusive, and financially controlling. They were slowly choking the lives of their wives. But by adolescence, societal messages start getting very strong. Their sons mistook their mother's desire to shield them from the abuse as a random act of cruelty, often with poisonous incitements from their fathers on top of it, and oh hey there's all this societal narrative supporting that so IT MUST BE TRUE. It was so sad to watch. You see these guys you've known since preschool, kind and funny, easygoing and sweet, turn into heavy-handed ghouls.
Then there are the guys who grew up in egalitarian families, middle class, parents stayed together, no trauma, and it's like, who the fuck knows why some become misogynists and others remain egalitarian. My ex was like that – his parents, like any human beings, are not perfect, but they're awesome people. His mother is independent, smart, empathetic, straightforward, and adored by her husband. My ex turned into a woman-hating, physically and emotionally abusive dipweed, and literally zero of us understand it. He lost all of his childhood friends over this stuff. They tried talking to him. We all tried talking to him. But boy howdy is he proud of being a sexist and found new friends who support that. Obviously society plays a huge role in that – when we would "discuss" his then-nascent viewpoints, he had no desire to actually listen. He'd read somewhere that women were dumb and manipulative, for instance, so me asking "honey, do you really think all the women you know are like that? Me? Your mother? Your sister?" would be batted aside with "if there's enough proof for it to be written down, it's true! Look, you're trying to manipulate me!!" Sigh. It was like reliving the boys-to-ghouls transformation of two dear friends in middle school.
So yes, publicly saying "this is not okay!" is excellent. If societal pressure can do so much harm, then the more voices saying "nope, not okay," the better.
posted by fraula at 2:12 AM on August 31, 2016 [4 favorites]
Arseholes notwithstanding, FemFest seems to have been a great success (further Telegram article; facebook); and on a not-entirely-unrelated note I look forward to the 2016 St. John's International Women's Film Festival (website thereof) in October. Obviously there has never been a better time to visit lovely St. John's, Newfoundland.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:45 AM on August 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:45 AM on August 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
Along with the term comes the accepted idea that whatever a troll says or does is sort of forgivable because they don't really mean it, they just want to stir up a fight.
Is that really true for anyone over the age of 14? I think of trolling as a thing done by people who are just bad people through and through. I don't get why it's funny, or adds value, or why anyone would do it for kicks. But then I'm the guy at the hockey game who doesn't get why people chant stupid shit at the opposing team*, so I may not be representative of humanity. Judging from those anti-woman comments it seems that blowing off steam by being a jerk is near and dear to many peoples' hearts.
* "So ... if the other team sucks, doesn't that mean that beating them is not impressive or noteworthy? Plus they seem pretty good to me; we're losing. Plus half those guys used to be on our team a couple of years ago. " *shrugs, goes to get a pretzel*
posted by freecellwizard at 7:32 AM on August 31, 2016
Is that really true for anyone over the age of 14? I think of trolling as a thing done by people who are just bad people through and through. I don't get why it's funny, or adds value, or why anyone would do it for kicks. But then I'm the guy at the hockey game who doesn't get why people chant stupid shit at the opposing team*, so I may not be representative of humanity. Judging from those anti-woman comments it seems that blowing off steam by being a jerk is near and dear to many peoples' hearts.
* "So ... if the other team sucks, doesn't that mean that beating them is not impressive or noteworthy? Plus they seem pretty good to me; we're losing. Plus half those guys used to be on our team a couple of years ago. " *shrugs, goes to get a pretzel*
posted by freecellwizard at 7:32 AM on August 31, 2016
I think they grow up in massive amounts of privilege that they see autonomous women as an affront to nature, especially if they disagree with their worldview.
I always assumed it was just the opposite of that. It's just these sad guys that don't get any respect from anyone - man or woman. They yell at their moms because they are the only ones that put up with them (while thinking of them as "poor, poor dears" and wondering where everything went wrong). They rant on the internets because someone pays attention - all negative, but you take what you can get - which is something they do not get anywhere else.
posted by rtimmel at 8:29 AM on August 31, 2016
I always assumed it was just the opposite of that. It's just these sad guys that don't get any respect from anyone - man or woman. They yell at their moms because they are the only ones that put up with them (while thinking of them as "poor, poor dears" and wondering where everything went wrong). They rant on the internets because someone pays attention - all negative, but you take what you can get - which is something they do not get anywhere else.
posted by rtimmel at 8:29 AM on August 31, 2016
This line in the managing editor's piece linked in the OP brought me up short:
What I didn’t anticipate1 was that some commentary would be so crass and crude, that it would sink to the level and ignorance of a Grade 6 boys’ locker room.2
1. Really? Comments on news and elsewhere are a cesspool of humanity. You can anticipate that every story from here to infinity on the internet will be followed by intense, moronic, vitriol and that if the writer is a POC or woman that there will be extra heapings of racism and misogyny. Anticipate that. Just go ahead and jot it down on your calendar.
2. WTF, grade 6 boys? If misogyny is normalized through childhood, it won't magically disappear in adulthood. This kind of parallel raises my hackles in that it echoes "boys will be boys." C'mon, lads, let's not devolve into our pre-pubescent silly selves, we can do better than this, surely? It's a bullshit response. This is not lad silly stuff. It spoils ambition, it ruins careers, it has long-lasting and indelible repercussions.
posted by amanda at 8:59 AM on August 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
What I didn’t anticipate1 was that some commentary would be so crass and crude, that it would sink to the level and ignorance of a Grade 6 boys’ locker room.2
1. Really? Comments on news and elsewhere are a cesspool of humanity. You can anticipate that every story from here to infinity on the internet will be followed by intense, moronic, vitriol and that if the writer is a POC or woman that there will be extra heapings of racism and misogyny. Anticipate that. Just go ahead and jot it down on your calendar.
2. WTF, grade 6 boys? If misogyny is normalized through childhood, it won't magically disappear in adulthood. This kind of parallel raises my hackles in that it echoes "boys will be boys." C'mon, lads, let's not devolve into our pre-pubescent silly selves, we can do better than this, surely? It's a bullshit response. This is not lad silly stuff. It spoils ambition, it ruins careers, it has long-lasting and indelible repercussions.
posted by amanda at 8:59 AM on August 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have a boy going into grade 8 and another boy going into grade 6 — and when I listen to them with their friends, it doesn't sound sexist or horrific. Frankly, the grade 6 kid doesn't understand girls yet, and the grade 8 boy has friends who are girls but he doesn't understand dating yet, and I'm okay with that (or possibly in denial).
This species of adult sexist troll is nothing like the grade 6 boys I know in person.
Grade 6 boys are shy and loud, selfish and generous, obnoxious and kind, and they like minecraft, superhero movies, and fart jokes.
Just like their grade 6 girl counterparts.
posted by wenat at 10:35 PM on August 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
This species of adult sexist troll is nothing like the grade 6 boys I know in person.
Grade 6 boys are shy and loud, selfish and generous, obnoxious and kind, and they like minecraft, superhero movies, and fart jokes.
Just like their grade 6 girl counterparts.
posted by wenat at 10:35 PM on August 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by the quidnunc kid at 11:50 AM on August 30, 2016 [3 favorites]