The Sandy Hook Hoax
September 6, 2016 1:21 PM Subscribe
Lenny Pozner used to believe in conspiracy theories, until his son’s death became one. [Some graphic descriptions.]
No need to insult gaping festering wounds like that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [27 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. If you're inclined to comment in here with anything like "maybe Sandy Hook really was a hoax," please just skip the thread instead.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:43 PM on September 6, 2016 [96 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:43 PM on September 6, 2016 [96 favorites]
I think, sometimes, that believing in conspiracy theories is a way of belonging to something big. Because you care and have amassed/created esoteric knowledge on the topic, you matter to it the way it matters to you. When this fantasy of belonging crashes into the lives of people who actually have a stake in the tragedy, it's more tragedy.
I used to enjoy historical conspiracy theories a lot; then I realized they were all about 3 steps at best from "the Jews did it." That pretty much killed the fun.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [100 favorites]
I used to enjoy historical conspiracy theories a lot; then I realized they were all about 3 steps at best from "the Jews did it." That pretty much killed the fun.
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [100 favorites]
You know it was a conspiracy because shortly afterward Obama's New World Order agents arrived in black helicopters and took everyone's guns away while all the freedom haters cheered and now nobody has any guns.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [66 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [66 favorites]
I think, sometimes, that believing in conspiracy theories is a way of belonging to something big.
The guy talking about "his adventure" is reprehensible, but I think he's struck at the core of it. Conspiracy theories are an exciting little movie where you get to be the hero, which is an understandable impulse, except for the people you've decided to make villains or supporting characters.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:50 PM on September 6, 2016 [35 favorites]
The guy talking about "his adventure" is reprehensible, but I think he's struck at the core of it. Conspiracy theories are an exciting little movie where you get to be the hero, which is an understandable impulse, except for the people you've decided to make villains or supporting characters.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:50 PM on September 6, 2016 [35 favorites]
I tend to think of conspiracy theorists as more of a "Of course someone is in control, someone HAS to be in control!" group. It's whittling away at the sense of meaninglessness and loneliness that is sometimes a part of the human condition, and the senselessness that is existence. Not a healthy way to do it, but it's A way.
It makes it easier to deal with a tragedy like 9/11 or whatever if Obama/Bildenburgers/Rothschilds/NWO/Whoever is behind it. No one would shoot up a school unless they'd been brainwashed by the government! so that the government can take away the guns, and then FEMA comes in and rounds everyone up and then AND THEN.
You can't make something into Us/Them unless there's a Them, and if there isn't a Them, well then, you'd better make one.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [37 favorites]
It makes it easier to deal with a tragedy like 9/11 or whatever if Obama/Bildenburgers/Rothschilds/NWO/Whoever is behind it. No one would shoot up a school unless they'd been brainwashed by the government! so that the government can take away the guns, and then FEMA comes in and rounds everyone up and then AND THEN.
You can't make something into Us/Them unless there's a Them, and if there isn't a Them, well then, you'd better make one.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [37 favorites]
I also want to recommend Rob Brotherton's excellent blog on the psychology of conspiracy theories. It addresses a lot of common myths, like the idea that people who believe in outlandish conspiracies must be mentally ill or experiencing clinical delusions. There might be certain patterns in conspiracist thinking, like feeling a lack of control or engaging in particular cognitive distortions, but the vast majority are not mentally ill. Anyway, it's a good supplement to this article.
posted by thetortoise at 1:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [39 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 1:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [39 favorites]
In this horrible election year, this article is a horrible reminder that nasty, hateful, hurtful ignorance isn't just a quadrennial problem.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
It's interesting that it took them so long to target Halbig'd family and employer. It seems to be the only tactic that actually worked.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:54 PM on September 6, 2016
posted by Omnomnom at 1:54 PM on September 6, 2016
I think, sometimes, that believing in conspiracy theories is a way of belonging to something big.
I have a relative who's recently embraced all kinds of conspiracy theories, from Nibiru/the Vatican to the silver standard, and his monitory refrain is "There's all kinds of stuff they don't want you to know." And yet he is utterly ignorant on the basic facts of astronomy and economics. If he were actually interested in these subjects, he'd crack a book instead of looking at YouTube videos. But he skips straight from total ignorance to all-too-worldly expert. He's never heard of economic panics or runs on the banks, but knooooowwwws that hoarding silver is the solution to, like, the Fed? Or whatever?
Sometimes conspiracists want to belong to something big--and that's certainly true of this person--but conspiracy theories are also short-cuts to impressively esoteric knowledge for lazy & impatient ignoramuses.
posted by Zerowensboring at 1:56 PM on September 6, 2016 [57 favorites]
I have a relative who's recently embraced all kinds of conspiracy theories, from Nibiru/the Vatican to the silver standard, and his monitory refrain is "There's all kinds of stuff they don't want you to know." And yet he is utterly ignorant on the basic facts of astronomy and economics. If he were actually interested in these subjects, he'd crack a book instead of looking at YouTube videos. But he skips straight from total ignorance to all-too-worldly expert. He's never heard of economic panics or runs on the banks, but knooooowwwws that hoarding silver is the solution to, like, the Fed? Or whatever?
Sometimes conspiracists want to belong to something big--and that's certainly true of this person--but conspiracy theories are also short-cuts to impressively esoteric knowledge for lazy & impatient ignoramuses.
posted by Zerowensboring at 1:56 PM on September 6, 2016 [57 favorites]
The guy talking about "his adventure" is reprehensible, but I think he's struck at the core of it. Conspiracy theories are an exciting little movie where you get to be the hero
I think it's both very much this + human's innate pattern-seeking behavior and a pretty universal desire for there to somehow be order in the universe. The former is the why the latter is the how. The personal mythology these people spin about themselves always sticks way out at me whenever they talk. Conspiracy theories are a way to create the desired personal mythology in a way that tickles parts of the brain that most humans already like to have tickled. It's a perfect storm, which is why it's nearly impossible to dissuade people from them. It feels so good to be wrapped up in them.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:56 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think it's both very much this + human's innate pattern-seeking behavior and a pretty universal desire for there to somehow be order in the universe. The former is the why the latter is the how. The personal mythology these people spin about themselves always sticks way out at me whenever they talk. Conspiracy theories are a way to create the desired personal mythology in a way that tickles parts of the brain that most humans already like to have tickled. It's a perfect storm, which is why it's nearly impossible to dissuade people from them. It feels so good to be wrapped up in them.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:56 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Hey, this article opens with a pretty graphic description of Noah's wounds. Can we have a warning for that, maybe? Sorry.
posted by anastasiav at 1:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by anastasiav at 1:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Added a warning.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's interesting that it took them so long to target Halbig'd family and employer. It seems to be the only tactic that actually worked
And yet that's a tool that is most frequently used by the trolls: it's what 4-chan did to Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian, and many other women on-line. Trolls and assholes frequently target their victim's families, with implicit or explicit threats.
So it makes me uncomfortable to see that technique used to shut down the trolls: it is likely to perpetuate that cycle more than anything else, and normalize the use of that weapon.
If you're claiming to be better than the assholes, don't use outside parties in your vendetta.
posted by suelac at 2:04 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
And yet that's a tool that is most frequently used by the trolls: it's what 4-chan did to Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian, and many other women on-line. Trolls and assholes frequently target their victim's families, with implicit or explicit threats.
So it makes me uncomfortable to see that technique used to shut down the trolls: it is likely to perpetuate that cycle more than anything else, and normalize the use of that weapon.
If you're claiming to be better than the assholes, don't use outside parties in your vendetta.
posted by suelac at 2:04 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
It addresses a lot of common myths, like the idea that people who believe in outlandish conspiracies must be mentally ill or experiencing clinical delusions.
FTA: Halbig said that during his brief career as a state trooper, he once drove in a motorcade protecting Martin Luther King Jr., the difficulty being that King died years before Halbig joined the force.
I guess they don't have to be...
posted by randomkeystrike at 2:06 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
FTA: Halbig said that during his brief career as a state trooper, he once drove in a motorcade protecting Martin Luther King Jr., the difficulty being that King died years before Halbig joined the force.
I guess they don't have to be...
posted by randomkeystrike at 2:06 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
People are ignorant and have already made up their minds about certain things, even if they don't realize it. Once they find or hear about something counter to what they know, some disbelieve it and go looking for other reasons to match what they think reality is.
They don't educate themselves because they see no reason to do so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:10 PM on September 6, 2016
They don't educate themselves because they see no reason to do so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:10 PM on September 6, 2016
In my limited anecdotal experience, I find it fairly disturbing how often 60-70 year old men who have led comfortable lives turn into chronically angry people who want to argue outlandish theories about one thing or another. I know the stereotypical vision of this is a conservative; the prototype being Archie Bunker. But I know people who are like this on both sides of the spectrum. The only thing that seems to be required is to go extreme one way or another. Older people tend to be more engaged voters, and I wonder if that's what we're playing out in the presidential race.
This may sound ageist; I'll out myself as heading toward this demographic myself at an alarming pace...
posted by randomkeystrike at 2:10 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]
This may sound ageist; I'll out myself as heading toward this demographic myself at an alarming pace...
posted by randomkeystrike at 2:10 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]
... “Wolfgang does not wish to speak with you unless you exhume Noah’s body and prove to the world you lost your son.”
You know what? He deserves that. He deserves for some crazed father to dig up his child's coffin with a pickaxe and make him kneel in front of it. Nobody asked if Emmett Till existed, did they?
But no. It would be monstrous, and it wouldn't work. It isn't about Sandy Hook at all, for these people. It's about proving there is no possible way in which a bad thing happened that a policy favored by liberals might have prevented. A shadow world ruled by a secret all-powerful cabal and a Kenyan imposter president is preferable to that, to being wrong about a single damn thing. It's no surprise that Halbig made the leap from Obama conspiracy theories to this.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
You know what? He deserves that. He deserves for some crazed father to dig up his child's coffin with a pickaxe and make him kneel in front of it. Nobody asked if Emmett Till existed, did they?
But no. It would be monstrous, and it wouldn't work. It isn't about Sandy Hook at all, for these people. It's about proving there is no possible way in which a bad thing happened that a policy favored by liberals might have prevented. A shadow world ruled by a secret all-powerful cabal and a Kenyan imposter president is preferable to that, to being wrong about a single damn thing. It's no surprise that Halbig made the leap from Obama conspiracy theories to this.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [32 favorites]
I think in a weird way conspiracy fandom is knowledge-envy. Part of it is a justified suspicion of the way the world works, part of it tends to be racism but part of it seems to be the desire to be an expert and to use knowledge in a powerful way. Most of the conspiracy fans I've met are people who are pretty far from any kind of political or economic power and whose cultural power is declining - people who haven't had a chance to get much education, do not do significant creative work, cannot produce knowledge in some other way.
I think that the ability to produce and deploy knowledge is a common human need, and the world is so shaped that many people can't do this - they have precarious work rather than a skilled trade, they don't have gardening knowledge, they don't have musical training, they don't have the kind of education which makes reading and writing easy and pleasurable, they have not had the chance to develop other artistic skills, they haven't been anywhere particularly interesting, there is no ready channel (union stewardship, for instance) for them to have access to even minimal political power and the knowledge that brings. Working class and lower middle class knowledge has been deskilled so much that there isn't much point to it - it's not like you're going to teach your kid the finer points of being a security guard or an Uber driver, or like there's community status therein; it's not like you'll teach your kid to sew or build things.
posted by Frowner at 2:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [92 favorites]
I think that the ability to produce and deploy knowledge is a common human need, and the world is so shaped that many people can't do this - they have precarious work rather than a skilled trade, they don't have gardening knowledge, they don't have musical training, they don't have the kind of education which makes reading and writing easy and pleasurable, they have not had the chance to develop other artistic skills, they haven't been anywhere particularly interesting, there is no ready channel (union stewardship, for instance) for them to have access to even minimal political power and the knowledge that brings. Working class and lower middle class knowledge has been deskilled so much that there isn't much point to it - it's not like you're going to teach your kid the finer points of being a security guard or an Uber driver, or like there's community status therein; it's not like you'll teach your kid to sew or build things.
posted by Frowner at 2:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [92 favorites]
You know what? He deserves that. He deserves for some crazed father to dig up his child's coffin with a pickaxe and make him kneel in front of it. Nobody asked if Emmett Till existed, did they?
Except that these are the people who would have claimed Emmett Till's body or the photographs of it were faked, and then, when one of their own came around to the idea that it actually had happened, they would turn on him or her and say that that person, too, had always been part of the conspiracy.
Conspiracy fandom is bizarre - these people are very clearly the very very the absolute worst of it, and I have zero clue what the solution is. I was hopeful, early in this article, that Mr Pozner's efforts to create space online for some conspiracists might get into something that I thought of while reading the (relatively) recent FPP on "Targeted Individuals" or people who are subject to intense paranoia that they are the subjects of conspiracy. That piece talked about the nearly endless confirmatory power of internet communities to reinforce the paranoia of the TI folks who participate in them - I kind of hoped that maybe the FB group My Pozner started might be an example of the potential power of internet communities to combat this type of conspiratorial thinking . . . until he abandoned it after determining that he had reached out to all the remaining reasonable people and that the rest were just straight up trolls.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 2:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Except that these are the people who would have claimed Emmett Till's body or the photographs of it were faked, and then, when one of their own came around to the idea that it actually had happened, they would turn on him or her and say that that person, too, had always been part of the conspiracy.
Conspiracy fandom is bizarre - these people are very clearly the very very the absolute worst of it, and I have zero clue what the solution is. I was hopeful, early in this article, that Mr Pozner's efforts to create space online for some conspiracists might get into something that I thought of while reading the (relatively) recent FPP on "Targeted Individuals" or people who are subject to intense paranoia that they are the subjects of conspiracy. That piece talked about the nearly endless confirmatory power of internet communities to reinforce the paranoia of the TI folks who participate in them - I kind of hoped that maybe the FB group My Pozner started might be an example of the potential power of internet communities to combat this type of conspiratorial thinking . . . until he abandoned it after determining that he had reached out to all the remaining reasonable people and that the rest were just straight up trolls.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 2:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Given a modicum of perspective - the last 25 years of high-profile American acts of violence, say - the Sandy Hook shooting was (unfortunately) not particularly exceptional. Why did the truthers/hoaxers/deniers/haters/nuts latch onto that incident so completely, so prominently? Was it just bad luck that Sandy Hook came to the attention of one energetic person with a lot of free time (Halbig), or is there some more satisfying reason I'm not aware of?
posted by Western Infidels at 2:28 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Western Infidels at 2:28 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Basic math and that "was a state trooper who drove protection for MLK" bit:
*Halbig was born in 1946.
*Halbig was a piss-poor student, there's a near-zero chance of graduating HS earlier than 18.
*Add on four years of college.
*Add on let's say at least one year teaching, although we don't know how long he did teach: could've been much more. But say one year minimum.
*Add on another year minimum to become a state trooper, what with training and such; again, could be more, this is just a handy minimum.
All of which comes to a base figure of at least age 24 (18 + 4 + 1 + 1), which added to his birth year of 1946 brings us to 1970, if not later. MLK died in 1968.
Conclusion: Halbig has an interesting relationship with the truth.
posted by easily confused at 2:28 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
*Halbig was born in 1946.
*Halbig was a piss-poor student, there's a near-zero chance of graduating HS earlier than 18.
*Add on four years of college.
*Add on let's say at least one year teaching, although we don't know how long he did teach: could've been much more. But say one year minimum.
*Add on another year minimum to become a state trooper, what with training and such; again, could be more, this is just a handy minimum.
All of which comes to a base figure of at least age 24 (18 + 4 + 1 + 1), which added to his birth year of 1946 brings us to 1970, if not later. MLK died in 1968.
Conclusion: Halbig has an interesting relationship with the truth.
posted by easily confused at 2:28 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
But Pozner is right, isn't he? Trolls don't just go away. Not unless the trolling starts to hurt them and interfere with their lives.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Omnomnom at 2:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
oh man, the comments on that article.
posted by lalochezia at 2:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lalochezia at 2:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Given a modicum of perspective - the last 25 years of high-profile American acts of violence, say - the Sandy Hook shooting was (unfortunately) not particularly exceptional.
I disagree. The shooter targeted primarily children and so many died. That's really hard for people to wrap their heads around, that one person would be so evil as to do that. And if you already don't trust the government, it's not that far to then ascribe it to them, and the person who uncovers this awful heinous coverup will be the greatest hero of all time.
posted by tittergrrl at 2:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I disagree. The shooter targeted primarily children and so many died. That's really hard for people to wrap their heads around, that one person would be so evil as to do that. And if you already don't trust the government, it's not that far to then ascribe it to them, and the person who uncovers this awful heinous coverup will be the greatest hero of all time.
posted by tittergrrl at 2:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
> oh man, the comments on that article.
Nooooooooope. Nope nope nope-ity nope nope.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:39 PM on September 6, 2016 [38 favorites]
Nooooooooope. Nope nope nope-ity nope nope.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:39 PM on September 6, 2016 [38 favorites]
Just FYI guys Infowars ran an article today:
Who is Obama’s Boss? And Why it Matters.
It’s called the Trilateral Commission, and its original stated goal was to create “a new international economic order"
Hoax or truth? YOU DECIDE
posted by radicalawyer at 2:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Who is Obama’s Boss? And Why it Matters.
It’s called the Trilateral Commission, and its original stated goal was to create “a new international economic order"
Hoax or truth? YOU DECIDE
posted by radicalawyer at 2:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
it is likely to perpetuate that cycle more than anything else, and normalize the use of that weapon.
Look I get what you're saying, but it's the only thing that seems to be working. These people are completely unamenable to reason, knocking them down with all the tools available seems to be effective.
posted by wilful at 2:46 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Look I get what you're saying, but it's the only thing that seems to be working. These people are completely unamenable to reason, knocking them down with all the tools available seems to be effective.
posted by wilful at 2:46 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
They also sell iodine which is GMO-free and vegan-friendly
unlike argon and hassium, which are in bed with Big Ag
posted by radicalawyer at 2:49 PM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
unlike argon and hassium, which are in bed with Big Ag
posted by radicalawyer at 2:49 PM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
unlike argon and hassium, which are in bed with Big Ag
Bring back the silver standard
posted by GuyZero at 3:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
Bring back the silver standard
posted by GuyZero at 3:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
I don't know how to not be made incredibly angry by these assholes. Good for Pozner. Good for Vlad.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
radicalawyer: "Just FYI guys Infowars ran an article today:
Who is Obama’s Boss? And Why it Matters.
It’s called the Trilateral Commission, and its original stated goal was to create “a new international economic order"
Hoax or truth? YOU DECIDE"
All the Is in that article are rendered as caps in my browser. They almost obscure all the fnords.
posted by chavenet at 3:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Who is Obama’s Boss? And Why it Matters.
It’s called the Trilateral Commission, and its original stated goal was to create “a new international economic order"
Hoax or truth? YOU DECIDE"
All the Is in that article are rendered as caps in my browser. They almost obscure all the fnords.
posted by chavenet at 3:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
A tough read, but a great article. Thanks for posting.
posted by Artw at 3:11 PM on September 6, 2016
posted by Artw at 3:11 PM on September 6, 2016
Tremendous article. The Internet is full of awful, terrible, shitty, sick, people. These Sandy Hook truthers are the worst.
posted by IanMorr at 3:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by IanMorr at 3:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why did the truthers/hoaxers/deniers/haters/nuts latch onto that incident so completely, so prominently?
Sandy Hook definitely gets more attention but conspiracy fans have latched onto virtually every mass shooting that got national coverage.
posted by Monochrome at 3:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sandy Hook definitely gets more attention but conspiracy fans have latched onto virtually every mass shooting that got national coverage.
posted by Monochrome at 3:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Between these hateful dipshits and the radioactive circus peanut currently running for US president, I no longer wonder what kind of people were in charge of the concentration camps during the Holocaust.
I can't wish physical ill upon them but I do wish upon them one shining moment of self-awareness in which their utter lack of humanity comes crashing down upon them, forcing them to live in recognition of their awfulness the rest of their days.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
I can't wish physical ill upon them but I do wish upon them one shining moment of self-awareness in which their utter lack of humanity comes crashing down upon them, forcing them to live in recognition of their awfulness the rest of their days.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [26 favorites]
I have a relative who's recently embraced all kinds of conspiracy theories,
Just thought I'd mention, if your relative is elderly and this is new, someone might want to take them to get checked for dementia.
I wonder about a lot of these folks, honestly, when it comes to that. Lead and other pollutants were everywhere 50 years ago (lots still are of course). Not to let anyone off the hook in terms of hurting suffering people, but if someone is suddenly becoming like this and hasn't always been a conspiracy theorist, a medical cause seems worth checking out.
posted by emjaybee at 3:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
Just thought I'd mention, if your relative is elderly and this is new, someone might want to take them to get checked for dementia.
I wonder about a lot of these folks, honestly, when it comes to that. Lead and other pollutants were everywhere 50 years ago (lots still are of course). Not to let anyone off the hook in terms of hurting suffering people, but if someone is suddenly becoming like this and hasn't always been a conspiracy theorist, a medical cause seems worth checking out.
posted by emjaybee at 3:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Truther" epistemology often seems to work like this: dream up some ridiculous notion of the way details would have to work out, and then, since they in fact didn't happen that way, declare that the "official story" is a lie. I had thought I was inured to that, but seriously positing that a terrorized victim in this massacre would not have closed her eyes because she was a nurse and had seen blood before....I just can't even can't even.
posted by thelonius at 3:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 3:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Shit, chavenet, at this point I'm pining for the fnords.
posted by fiercecupcake at 3:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 3:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]
I must admit, I think contacting these hoaxers' families and employers is a good strategy and it's justifiable. Not doxxing - but why not let the people who have the most influence over these idiots know the harm they are causing? Sunshine is a great disinfectant. These people will never stop until they have to suffer negative consequences for their actions.
posted by pjsky at 3:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 3:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
When we have at present an example of a birther truther running for the highest office in the land, you know that there are many out there capable of such nonsense. I have long felt that conspiracy believers are those who tend to believe that there are forces out there at play that can explain things that ordinary citizens are unable to understand, and that by believing in this or that explanation, somehow you now have a handle on how things really work so that you are part of a knowing group while those poor saps who accept what is told them live in darkness and ignorance.
posted by Postroad at 3:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 3:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
The ebook’s thoroughness highlighted the fact that Pozner had become nearly as preoccupied with his campaign against Halbig as Halbig had with his own questBattle ye not with monsters … I can only imagine what Pozner's family has gone through, but this is really acknowledging the power that Halbig and his fecal ilk hold over Pozner.
But yeah, the guys-gone-loopy idea is compelling. I've had a few male friends in middle age completely lose touch with reality: one briefly became impossibly convinced that there was a huge free energy conspiracy (he got better, but it's still awkward). Another denied being married and having a daughter, and started trying to bring women he'd met while clubbing home while the wife and kid were still there. Yet another — a formerly gentle and whimsical programmer — has gone the full Schlafly, with a twitter feed chock full of alt-right Breitbart-and-worse vileness, and bizarre rants about how all the wrongs of the world would right if only we (that is, the whole world) recognized Queen Elizabeth II as rightful world spiritual ruler. None of these are uneducated men, either. But something broke with them all.
posted by scruss at 4:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
I find it fairly disturbing how often 60-70 year old men who have led comfortable lives turn into chronically angry people who want to argue outlandish theories about one thing or another.
As someone mere inches away from that demo, it perplexes me, as well. On the other hand, I've begun to understand, from watching my FIL's situation over the years, just what sort of overwhlelming, depressing, demoralizing morass being old in the US is. It looks to be quite easy for one to feel like they don't have any control of their life or world anymore. They become more and more dependent on corporations (assisted living, managed care, nursing home, etc.) and a labyrinthine government system (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security) and have less and less agency. Add internet access and, yeah, I can see how some of them come to believe in conspiracies.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:06 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
As someone mere inches away from that demo, it perplexes me, as well. On the other hand, I've begun to understand, from watching my FIL's situation over the years, just what sort of overwhlelming, depressing, demoralizing morass being old in the US is. It looks to be quite easy for one to feel like they don't have any control of their life or world anymore. They become more and more dependent on corporations (assisted living, managed care, nursing home, etc.) and a labyrinthine government system (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security) and have less and less agency. Add internet access and, yeah, I can see how some of them come to believe in conspiracies.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:06 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
While I think there are a lot of people out there who suffer from diminished cognitive function and others for whom this kind of behavior is malicious fun, I think this probably explains a lot of it:
“I was really traumatized by what happened at Sandy Hook,” Tiffany Moser, a 36-year-old California mother of two, told me. Moser kept her children out of school for a few days after the shooting and was looking for information about how the families were holding up when she stumbled upon the Sandy Hook Hoax group. “I told them, ‘I don’t really know what the heck you people are doing, but I’d like to believe these little babies didn’t die,’ ” Moser said.
Why bother with truth when a lie makes you feel better? When reality and science have bad or scary news for you, it's so much easier to avoid evidence and citation and go with "many people say" and "I'd prefer that thing didn't happen, so *poof* it didn't."
If you make enough effort and keep your world small enough, it works pretty well.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:07 PM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
“I was really traumatized by what happened at Sandy Hook,” Tiffany Moser, a 36-year-old California mother of two, told me. Moser kept her children out of school for a few days after the shooting and was looking for information about how the families were holding up when she stumbled upon the Sandy Hook Hoax group. “I told them, ‘I don’t really know what the heck you people are doing, but I’d like to believe these little babies didn’t die,’ ” Moser said.
Why bother with truth when a lie makes you feel better? When reality and science have bad or scary news for you, it's so much easier to avoid evidence and citation and go with "many people say" and "I'd prefer that thing didn't happen, so *poof* it didn't."
If you make enough effort and keep your world small enough, it works pretty well.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:07 PM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]
"I must admit, I think contacting these hoaxers' families and employers is a good strategy and it's justifiable. Not doxxing - but why not let the people who have the most influence over these idiots know the harm they are causing?"
Well, you're assuming the families and employers actually have some kind of influence. My wife's brother -- who is schizophrenic-- is a Holocaust-denier and buys into many other terrible conspiracy theories. There's nothing my wife or anyone else in the family can do to disabuse him of these notions. (Believe me, everybody's tried to do so for years.)
These folks are beyond reasoning or rational persuasion. For that matter, they are beyond shunning. (Members of my wife's family spent years not talking with the brother, but that accomplished nothing. To the contrary, it probably made things worse.)
In sum, the family members in many (most?) instances are not only innocent bystanders but helpless to do anything about it. Pulling them into your fight is likely to be neither fair nor productive.
posted by mikeand1 at 4:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
Well, you're assuming the families and employers actually have some kind of influence. My wife's brother -- who is schizophrenic-- is a Holocaust-denier and buys into many other terrible conspiracy theories. There's nothing my wife or anyone else in the family can do to disabuse him of these notions. (Believe me, everybody's tried to do so for years.)
These folks are beyond reasoning or rational persuasion. For that matter, they are beyond shunning. (Members of my wife's family spent years not talking with the brother, but that accomplished nothing. To the contrary, it probably made things worse.)
In sum, the family members in many (most?) instances are not only innocent bystanders but helpless to do anything about it. Pulling them into your fight is likely to be neither fair nor productive.
posted by mikeand1 at 4:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
My father is one of these people, but he wasn't always. Experts might say it's not necessarily mental illness, but this caveat doesn't apply here. One of the first indications that he was starting to fall into a pathologically paranoid mode of thinking was a conversation I had with him about a year after the shootings. I hadn't seen him in a while and was looking forward to just having a chat and catching up. He suddenly veered off into talking about the price of gold and silver and the Kennedy assassination. He really wanted to press the issue, so I gave the standard response when people are insistent on talking about this topic:.
"What does it matter?" I said, "Let's say there was a conspiracy. You are on the Warren Commission and find out about this. You're old enough to remember WWI, and you are only a few years removed from an apocalyptic game of chicken over Cuba, and any conspiracy probably involves that little island that is starting to look a lot like Serbia in 1914. Do you want to tell the world that it was some big plot? What good does that do? It was 50 years ago. Let's talk about something else."
He sits there in silence for a while. Then all of a sudden, "What happened to you? You never used to believe the ridiculous lies of the Warren Commission."
"Sure, but I was a kid, Dad. And I actually read the Warren Commission report, expecting it to find it absurd. Have you ever read it?"
"I thought you were smart, but clearly I was wrong. You are just a stupid little sheep who believes all those lies. I bet you believe the official story about 9/11 and Sandy Hook too."
I was a little taken aback. "Yes, I guess I do."
"Well then you're even stupider than I thought."
Then he sold his house and moved to somewhere rural where he could feel more secure about his stash of overpriced Krugerrands and bars of silver bullion. He stopped taking his mood stabilizers and now he's fully inside the Alt-Right vortex of angry stupid and filled with bottomless hate for anyone not like him or who can't understand his obvious brilliance, especially women. All women. He has a million ideas about how to turn his property into a family compound and his rage is triggered by anyone who won't bend to his psychotic mania, especially when they are his sons. He was convinced that a local artist was a CIA agent trying to set him up as some kind of false flag patsy. I think there was a drone strike involved too.
It makes me wonder if my dad had gone down this path sooner, if he'd not been taking his medication when I was a minor, it makes me wonder what maybe I could have been capable of. I was an angry loner in high school and years away from getting the same diagnosis as my dad. What if he hadn't been medicated, and what if instead of an aversion to firearms he had been a gun nut? What about my brother, in a similar place on the spectrum as Adam Lanza and struggling to adapt to a world that has little tolerance for his dependence on comforting rituals. What if instead of patience and gentle care during those years instead he had target practice and an endless torrent of rage at imagined shadowy enemies? No matter what happened, I don't think either one of us could have escaped that unharmed.
And this is why I loathe the Alex Joneses, and whatever gallery of charlatans call themselves Tyler Durden and post to Zero Hedge, and all the other hucksters selling their paranoid fantasy play sets. Cheap con men not above preying on the mentally ill, and they don't care if they inspire violence. It's just more grist for their mill of lies.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 4:17 PM on September 6, 2016 [157 favorites]
"What does it matter?" I said, "Let's say there was a conspiracy. You are on the Warren Commission and find out about this. You're old enough to remember WWI, and you are only a few years removed from an apocalyptic game of chicken over Cuba, and any conspiracy probably involves that little island that is starting to look a lot like Serbia in 1914. Do you want to tell the world that it was some big plot? What good does that do? It was 50 years ago. Let's talk about something else."
He sits there in silence for a while. Then all of a sudden, "What happened to you? You never used to believe the ridiculous lies of the Warren Commission."
"Sure, but I was a kid, Dad. And I actually read the Warren Commission report, expecting it to find it absurd. Have you ever read it?"
"I thought you were smart, but clearly I was wrong. You are just a stupid little sheep who believes all those lies. I bet you believe the official story about 9/11 and Sandy Hook too."
I was a little taken aback. "Yes, I guess I do."
"Well then you're even stupider than I thought."
Then he sold his house and moved to somewhere rural where he could feel more secure about his stash of overpriced Krugerrands and bars of silver bullion. He stopped taking his mood stabilizers and now he's fully inside the Alt-Right vortex of angry stupid and filled with bottomless hate for anyone not like him or who can't understand his obvious brilliance, especially women. All women. He has a million ideas about how to turn his property into a family compound and his rage is triggered by anyone who won't bend to his psychotic mania, especially when they are his sons. He was convinced that a local artist was a CIA agent trying to set him up as some kind of false flag patsy. I think there was a drone strike involved too.
It makes me wonder if my dad had gone down this path sooner, if he'd not been taking his medication when I was a minor, it makes me wonder what maybe I could have been capable of. I was an angry loner in high school and years away from getting the same diagnosis as my dad. What if he hadn't been medicated, and what if instead of an aversion to firearms he had been a gun nut? What about my brother, in a similar place on the spectrum as Adam Lanza and struggling to adapt to a world that has little tolerance for his dependence on comforting rituals. What if instead of patience and gentle care during those years instead he had target practice and an endless torrent of rage at imagined shadowy enemies? No matter what happened, I don't think either one of us could have escaped that unharmed.
And this is why I loathe the Alex Joneses, and whatever gallery of charlatans call themselves Tyler Durden and post to Zero Hedge, and all the other hucksters selling their paranoid fantasy play sets. Cheap con men not above preying on the mentally ill, and they don't care if they inspire violence. It's just more grist for their mill of lies.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 4:17 PM on September 6, 2016 [157 favorites]
I think calling this event "evil" somewhat misses the point. Since there is fuck-all we can do about evil. Guns, on the other hand, we could do something about. If we only wanted to.
Mental health--there's something we could do something about also, but for the will. Didn't the assassin's mother try time and again to get help for her son, and fail? Oh, America....
posted by adam hominem at 4:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Mental health--there's something we could do something about also, but for the will. Didn't the assassin's mother try time and again to get help for her son, and fail? Oh, America....
posted by adam hominem at 4:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
mikeand1-- I certainly see your point of view. I was referring specifically to the ring leaders, the agitators, the perpetrators, not their witless followers. People who are raising money to carry out their reign of terror via GoFundMe -- they are the ones I think deserve taking down.
posted by pjsky at 4:46 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by pjsky at 4:46 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Exactly. There are ghouls for whom this is a business. It's those assholes who need to be stopped.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 4:48 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 4:48 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wolfgang Halbig absolutely has a paralysing touch that affects everything but elves, for example.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why bother with truth when a lie makes you feel better? When reality and science have bad or scary news for you, it's so much easier to avoid evidence and citation and go with "many people say" and "I'd prefer that thing didn't happen, so *poof* it didn't."
Of course, other people seem to want to believe that the world is actively malicious - as I am not nearly the first to suggest though it seems people may find this easier to deal with than the idea that the world is fucked in complicated and arbitrary ways.
posted by atoxyl at 5:21 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Of course, other people seem to want to believe that the world is actively malicious - as I am not nearly the first to suggest though it seems people may find this easier to deal with than the idea that the world is fucked in complicated and arbitrary ways.
posted by atoxyl at 5:21 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I thought this point was chilling. His was a lonely crusade, and he admitted that in his “darkest, darkest moments,” the conspiracy theorist inside of him would reemerge. “I sometimes wonder, Why am I the only one fighting back?” he said. “Could I have been the only one that lost a child?”
This is the guy most active in the anti-hoax movement. The one who's not far removed whatsoever from conspiracy thinking.
posted by layceepee at 5:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is the guy most active in the anti-hoax movement. The one who's not far removed whatsoever from conspiracy thinking.
posted by layceepee at 5:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
My younger brother believes this plus just about every other conspiracy theory going. He's 46 now but this isn't a new mindset for him. I've pretty much stopped talking to him because we just ended up shouting at each other and there was nothing I could say to change his mind on anything. He probably feels the same way about me.
I don't want to lose contact with my brother but at the same time it enrages me that he is so scared and angry and hateful and so absolutely convinced that only he and his 'truther' friends are right about what's happening to this world. I asked him why he was so prepared to believe the people making the youtube videos but not the people going to the funerals and he scoffed at me and called me naiive.
I have to stop talking to him so that I can avoid despising him.
posted by h00py at 5:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
I don't want to lose contact with my brother but at the same time it enrages me that he is so scared and angry and hateful and so absolutely convinced that only he and his 'truther' friends are right about what's happening to this world. I asked him why he was so prepared to believe the people making the youtube videos but not the people going to the funerals and he scoffed at me and called me naiive.
I have to stop talking to him so that I can avoid despising him.
posted by h00py at 5:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]
When Sandy Hook happened, I felt that familiar shock to my naive middle-aged mind, that feeling of "oh god how could someone (hardly more than a child himself) possibly do something so awful." That feeling of both a vicious blow to the stomach and bewilderment that such a thing could happen in such a setting. Now I have that same feeling. How can these conspiracy nut people be so foolishly monstrously cruel? I am reminded to my great sorrow again of my naivete.
posted by anguspodgorny at 6:02 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by anguspodgorny at 6:02 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nothing drives home the power conspiracy theories can hold over someone like the This American Life episode "The Night in Question", which deals with the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. The chilling moment comes as Hagai Amir, the assassin's brother and co-conspirator, recounts for everyone how they planned the attack. His mother has been hovering nearby, and suddenly starts ranting about how can he tell such lies and whatnot, and it becomes clear that she believes her own sons are not actually Rabin's killers, but rather willing fall men for a Labour plot to discredit the opponents of the Oslo Accords. The cognitive dissonance necessary to believe such wild fantasy even as your sons proudly proclaim that they did it.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [15 favorites]
"I feel good, because I really feel deep inside my heart that no children died that day,” Halbig told me. “But then on the other side, what if I’m wrong?” In that case, Halbig said, he would pay for a billboard apologizing “for all the harm I’ve done” and then promptly check himself into a mental institution. It wasn’t exactly clear what would convince him, but he expressed hope in a lawsuit brought by nine of the Newtown families, including the Pozners, against Bushmaster, which makes the AR-15. “They’ll have to exhume the bodies to prove it was the AR-15 that actually killed the children,” Halbig said.Newtown is my hometown but I didn't go through even a tiny fraction of what the families, students and teachers went through. Indeed, I didn't even go through a fraction of what people currently living there went through. However, I was effected and everyone I know who lived in Newtown (and most of the people I know in Bethel, Danbury, Redding, Monroe and the other surrounding towns) know somebody who lose somebody - their niece's soccer teammate, or their kindergarten teacher's little boy. I get irrationally angry about these truthers - I see them as inflicting needless extra pain on families that have suffered way, way too much already. Reading articles like this usually turns into me putting in a call to my therapist by the end of the day.
I don't know what it is about this particular paragraph, though, but it sort of snapped my brain in a weird way. I found myself less angry with Halbig then I was at the start of the article. I think I understand that, somewhere deep in his heart, he realizes he's doing an awful thing and that realization is part of what's driving his delusion. Like if he admits he's wrong, he also had to admit he's been a dreadful person. As long as the delusion persists, he can go on thinking he's not a monster. I wouldn't go so far as to say I empathize with him and I can't forgive him, but I have a little deeper understanding of this phenomenon now. Once you've doubled, tripled, quadrupled down on treating people horribly, you either have to admit you're a gobshite or quintuple down. Its much easier to quintuple down.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [36 favorites]
Just thought I'd mention, if your relative is elderly and this is new, someone might want to take them to get checked for dementia.
I appreciate your kind and considered words, but this person is not elderly, and while the flavor of belief is new, its patterns are not. But you're on the right track: This person is certainly "mentally ill." Just as certainly, this person is a "prick."
I know the Venn diagram that maps "mentally ill" and "self-righteous waste-oid" is complicated--I have definitely been the former, and intermittently the latter, sometimes because of the former and sometimes because of regular ol' asshole's disease--so i say this advisedly, but it disgusts me how this person focuses so intently on paranoid power-narratives and the trampling of "freedom" while not giving a shit about the psychic damage his/her arrogance is doing to the people who implicitly expect at least passive support, and have an explicit right to so much more. Tl;dr: some people vulnerable to conspiracy theories are ill and deserve support and help, but there are fuckwits in that number, too.
Conspiracy theories are a lesion on the body politic. Have been for fifty years.
TRUMP.
posted by Zerowensboring at 6:43 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
I appreciate your kind and considered words, but this person is not elderly, and while the flavor of belief is new, its patterns are not. But you're on the right track: This person is certainly "mentally ill." Just as certainly, this person is a "prick."
I know the Venn diagram that maps "mentally ill" and "self-righteous waste-oid" is complicated--I have definitely been the former, and intermittently the latter, sometimes because of the former and sometimes because of regular ol' asshole's disease--so i say this advisedly, but it disgusts me how this person focuses so intently on paranoid power-narratives and the trampling of "freedom" while not giving a shit about the psychic damage his/her arrogance is doing to the people who implicitly expect at least passive support, and have an explicit right to so much more. Tl;dr: some people vulnerable to conspiracy theories are ill and deserve support and help, but there are fuckwits in that number, too.
Conspiracy theories are a lesion on the body politic. Have been for fifty years.
TRUMP.
posted by Zerowensboring at 6:43 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
I get irrationally angry about these truthers
Anger at people who needlessly inflict pain on the parents of dead children is a completely rational response. And good on Pozner's allies for using the trolls' own weapon against them. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Anger at people who needlessly inflict pain on the parents of dead children is a completely rational response. And good on Pozner's allies for using the trolls' own weapon against them. Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
To clarify, it is rational to get mad at these guys. The way I get mad is irrational and unhealthy for me.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like if he admits he's wrong, he also had to admit he's been a dreadful person
I've always thought the inability to admit they were wrong was the primary issue with conspiracy nuts. To be able to believe that Sandy Hook was a hoax, you'd have to admit you were wrong about gun control, maybe. Or, perhaps, you'd have to admit that Muslim extremists aren't the biggest threat to your world. Or you'd have to admit that that white males aren't superior. The link might be thin, but somehow the event in question triggers the person's fear of being wrong and then they start down a dark path of desperately trying to get back in the right. That is how they seem to me - so desperate. Like their own life depends on their theory being right.
posted by double bubble at 7:07 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
I've always thought the inability to admit they were wrong was the primary issue with conspiracy nuts. To be able to believe that Sandy Hook was a hoax, you'd have to admit you were wrong about gun control, maybe. Or, perhaps, you'd have to admit that Muslim extremists aren't the biggest threat to your world. Or you'd have to admit that that white males aren't superior. The link might be thin, but somehow the event in question triggers the person's fear of being wrong and then they start down a dark path of desperately trying to get back in the right. That is how they seem to me - so desperate. Like their own life depends on their theory being right.
posted by double bubble at 7:07 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]
Getting angry can be useful -- there's a reason evolution gave us the emotion -- but it is never rational. It is in fact a perfect abandonment of rationality, a surrender to part of ourselves that defies everything we ever considered human as opposed to animal. Anger by its nature does not respect laws, conventions, or limits. Anger is an emotion that prepares you to pour every ounce of your being into the destruction of what threatens you. And that's a great thing when you are facing off against a saber-toothed tiger, but maybe not so much when SOMEBODY IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
<>I think, sometimes, that believing in conspiracy theories is a way of belonging to something big. Because you care and have amassed/created esoteric knowledge on the topic, you matter to it the way it matters to you. When this fantasy of belonging crashes into the lives of people who actually have a stake in the tragedy, it's more tragedy.
“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless.”
—Alan Moore
posted by Fongotskilernie at 7:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]
“The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless.”
—Alan Moore
posted by Fongotskilernie at 7:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]
Pozner wrote in an email to Alex Jones, to which one of Jones’s employees replied that Jones would love to speak to him if “we confirm that you are the real Lenny Pozner.”
I got that far and couldn't read anymore. I'm tired of whatever this conspiracy "truther" sickness is, and even more sick of the parasitic "media" that enables it.
posted by nubs at 7:42 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I got that far and couldn't read anymore. I'm tired of whatever this conspiracy "truther" sickness is, and even more sick of the parasitic "media" that enables it.
posted by nubs at 7:42 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I get some degree of cold satisfaction from the end.
I think more often than not becoming victims to their own tactics are the only thing that will stop trolls. Doxxing, public humiliation, exposure of what they're doing to friends, family, and employers. Story after story of targets of harassment fighting back end with the troll begging and pleading for forgiveness because you've got their boss's email and you're about to attach evidence that they've been sending you rape threats for months.
The problem is that engaging in that behavior takes a certain stomach for the tenacity and, yes, cruelty necessary to carry that out. And more often than not the people who are victims of these troll armies are people targeted for daring to speak out about some vulnerability or trauma. The bulk of the human race does not have time or emotional energy for that shit and just wants to block them and move on with their lives.
I wish we had some kind of Internet law enforcement, to whom this harassment could be reported, investigated, and punished if need be.
posted by Anonymous at 8:06 PM on September 6, 2016
I think more often than not becoming victims to their own tactics are the only thing that will stop trolls. Doxxing, public humiliation, exposure of what they're doing to friends, family, and employers. Story after story of targets of harassment fighting back end with the troll begging and pleading for forgiveness because you've got their boss's email and you're about to attach evidence that they've been sending you rape threats for months.
The problem is that engaging in that behavior takes a certain stomach for the tenacity and, yes, cruelty necessary to carry that out. And more often than not the people who are victims of these troll armies are people targeted for daring to speak out about some vulnerability or trauma. The bulk of the human race does not have time or emotional energy for that shit and just wants to block them and move on with their lives.
I wish we had some kind of Internet law enforcement, to whom this harassment could be reported, investigated, and punished if need be.
posted by Anonymous at 8:06 PM on September 6, 2016
... I no longer wonder what kind of people were in charge of the concentration camps during the Holocaust.
Pretty much this. I don't know what motivates conspiracy-theorists in general, and I'm reluctant to write them all off as cranks (some conspiracies turn out to be real!), but when the conspiracy involves erasing the victims it has become a strain of pure totalitarianism. What's even better than murder? Throwing doubt on whether your victim ever existed. It's a sadistic power trip for these people. Of course they're fucking Trump supporters.
posted by um at 8:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pretty much this. I don't know what motivates conspiracy-theorists in general, and I'm reluctant to write them all off as cranks (some conspiracies turn out to be real!), but when the conspiracy involves erasing the victims it has become a strain of pure totalitarianism. What's even better than murder? Throwing doubt on whether your victim ever existed. It's a sadistic power trip for these people. Of course they're fucking Trump supporters.
posted by um at 8:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
A.) A delusion is merely a fixed false belief, you don't have to be mentally ill to have a delusion. The conspiracy theorists' delusion is not that there is some specific group or entity controlling everything. The delusion is that everything can be controlled, even in principle.
B.) Cognitive dissonance is the discomfort that arises when you have conflicting beliefs. For example, you may believe in the absolute right to bear arms, and in the sanctity of the lives of children AND that you are a good person. When the right to bear arms leads, more or less directly, to the death of children it is uncomfortable. How can you keep supporting gun rights and be a good person.
Take a person with some pain, B, and add human tendency, A, and you've got a motivated person with an easy answer. And if they seem to be hurting other people, all they have to do is double down and those people were never real in the first place.
posted by Horkus at 8:48 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
B.) Cognitive dissonance is the discomfort that arises when you have conflicting beliefs. For example, you may believe in the absolute right to bear arms, and in the sanctity of the lives of children AND that you are a good person. When the right to bear arms leads, more or less directly, to the death of children it is uncomfortable. How can you keep supporting gun rights and be a good person.
Take a person with some pain, B, and add human tendency, A, and you've got a motivated person with an easy answer. And if they seem to be hurting other people, all they have to do is double down and those people were never real in the first place.
posted by Horkus at 8:48 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]
For seekers after truth, these deranged people have no capacity for information that challenges, nor the ability to admit error. I had plenty of run ins with them after a major terrorist incident when they accused a friend, who was in the middle of it and survived, of being a 'construct' from MI6, Mossad etc.
These truth seekers are incapable of recognising the truth.
While they seem to be using conspiracy theories in a failing attempt to fill a psychological need, almost every conspiracy boils down to pure Antisemitism - blaming the Jews in one form or another.
They are not just a joke, real people get hurt by their insane ramblings, people who have often been through horrible experiences.
posted by quarsan at 10:58 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
These truth seekers are incapable of recognising the truth.
While they seem to be using conspiracy theories in a failing attempt to fill a psychological need, almost every conspiracy boils down to pure Antisemitism - blaming the Jews in one form or another.
They are not just a joke, real people get hurt by their insane ramblings, people who have often been through horrible experiences.
posted by quarsan at 10:58 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Most of us have read about crazy times in history, when people seemingly lost their minds en masse. The times we laughed at. I've thought for the last 15-20 years that we're moving into one of those times.
I agree with Frowner, but I think it's the fact that everything here is menial and crushing, yet still fairly comfortable. The Fight Club theory. There's no big goal or fight for the average person, we're all the clock punchers in dystopian stories. There's a reason there's so many of those stories. People don't do well in that environment, some people will fuck things up just to make something happen.
When we have at present an example of a birther truther running for the highest office in the land,
Exactly.
posted by bongo_x at 11:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with Frowner, but I think it's the fact that everything here is menial and crushing, yet still fairly comfortable. The Fight Club theory. There's no big goal or fight for the average person, we're all the clock punchers in dystopian stories. There's a reason there's so many of those stories. People don't do well in that environment, some people will fuck things up just to make something happen.
When we have at present an example of a birther truther running for the highest office in the land,
Exactly.
posted by bongo_x at 11:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
My current theory is that there are basically two types of people:
1. The ones who believe the world around us is objective and we cannot know it perfectly through our biased and imperfect senses. The only way to acquire knowledge of it is to employ our reason and build mechanisms for reaching consensus with others on what constitutes reality (the scientific method if you will).
2. The ones who believe the world around us may not even exist and the only thing we can rely on are our senses and instincts. Knowledge acquisition should therefore be faith based and general laws can be discovered through personal experience.
First off, these two groups are profoundly incompatible (except for superficial encounters in pubs and general civilized contact).
Second of all, the second approach is unsustainable, because if reason is supplanted by faith, then everything needs to be taken on faith (i.e. faith has no mechanisms from separating the chaff from the seed).
Thirdly, conspiracy theorists seem to me to fall exclusively into the second camp. Even though they title themselves "sceptics", in my experience they take anything on faith and commit the whole gamut of logical fallacies in their mistaken conviction that they employ reason.
Fourthly, there is a very strong differentiating factor: Is it OK not to know something? My experience tells me that the second group has a deeply ingrained fear of not knowing - this could be partly natural to our species and partly it is the result of upbringing.
So to conclude, I am convinced that
1. Conspiracy theorists are the result of bad education and faith-based upbringing
2. Even though violence always prevails (in any form) it is only a temporary "solution" (which may reinforce their feeling of standing against a giant conspiracy)
3. To deal with the problem, education and upbringing should be modified, although this will not bring results earlier than, say 14-20 years from the moment it happens.
posted by Laotic at 11:15 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
1. The ones who believe the world around us is objective and we cannot know it perfectly through our biased and imperfect senses. The only way to acquire knowledge of it is to employ our reason and build mechanisms for reaching consensus with others on what constitutes reality (the scientific method if you will).
2. The ones who believe the world around us may not even exist and the only thing we can rely on are our senses and instincts. Knowledge acquisition should therefore be faith based and general laws can be discovered through personal experience.
First off, these two groups are profoundly incompatible (except for superficial encounters in pubs and general civilized contact).
Second of all, the second approach is unsustainable, because if reason is supplanted by faith, then everything needs to be taken on faith (i.e. faith has no mechanisms from separating the chaff from the seed).
Thirdly, conspiracy theorists seem to me to fall exclusively into the second camp. Even though they title themselves "sceptics", in my experience they take anything on faith and commit the whole gamut of logical fallacies in their mistaken conviction that they employ reason.
Fourthly, there is a very strong differentiating factor: Is it OK not to know something? My experience tells me that the second group has a deeply ingrained fear of not knowing - this could be partly natural to our species and partly it is the result of upbringing.
So to conclude, I am convinced that
1. Conspiracy theorists are the result of bad education and faith-based upbringing
2. Even though violence always prevails (in any form) it is only a temporary "solution" (which may reinforce their feeling of standing against a giant conspiracy)
3. To deal with the problem, education and upbringing should be modified, although this will not bring results earlier than, say 14-20 years from the moment it happens.
posted by Laotic at 11:15 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure I agree with you theory, but I was sure you were going to say the first group was the conspiracy theory group.
posted by bongo_x at 11:24 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bongo_x at 11:24 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
bongo_x: My hasty writing may be the reason you thought that. Would you care to explain why you got that impression? Thank you.
posted by Laotic at 11:31 PM on September 6, 2016
posted by Laotic at 11:31 PM on September 6, 2016
I agree with what a lot of people here have said; these people like solid answers and hate ambiguity. Most of them seem to feel they are following solid science in their theorizing and ignoring feelings.
posted by bongo_x at 11:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bongo_x at 11:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bongo_x: My experience is similar to yours - while they may feel they follow scientific methods, they do anything but. They take a premise on trust from an unverified source; their belief, once acquired, is impossible to change by proof (cf the famous ken ham-bill nye debate, where ken ham implies that his belief is unchangeable); they do not follow general rules of logical thinking, etc.
posted by Laotic at 11:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Laotic at 11:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is such a total waste of time and energy and life purpose on both sides. How sad. If his child had lived, the dad wouldn't be choosing to waste his life on this bullshit. And if there is some truth to these conspiracies, how sad to waste your life trying to prove that bullshit.
posted by gt2 at 11:52 PM on September 6, 2016
posted by gt2 at 11:52 PM on September 6, 2016
... I no longer wonder what kind of people were in charge of the concentration camps during the Holocaust.
There was a documentary on filming the aftermath of Concentration camps in Germany after the war. They took the important people from the towns around the camps (majors, teachers) and had the people stand there while the camer was slowly panning from them to the concentration camp to the pile of human bodies, while the US soldiers where removing the bodies for burial.
It was made for the exact purpose to offer the minimal attack angle to debunkers "Concentration camps never existed". There you have real people, known to many, and real bodies, and a real KZ, all in one long panning video sequence.
posted by elcapitano at 2:02 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
If his child had lived, the dad wouldn't be choosing to waste his life on this bullshit.
He did explain in detail that he was an active conspiracy theorist before the child died.
My feeling is that he now pours exactly the same bullheaded, trollish energies i that informed his prior behaviour into now fighting conspiracy theorists. He mever seems to have been a particularly pleasant guy, you know?
But in this case his tenacity, now with a real cause behind it, is actually useful.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:16 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
He did explain in detail that he was an active conspiracy theorist before the child died.
My feeling is that he now pours exactly the same bullheaded, trollish energies i that informed his prior behaviour into now fighting conspiracy theorists. He mever seems to have been a particularly pleasant guy, you know?
But in this case his tenacity, now with a real cause behind it, is actually useful.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:16 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Conspiracy theories are a lesion on the body politic. Have been for fifty years
mmmm, way farther back than that. at least to the early republican period. freemasonry.
posted by listen, lady at 4:56 AM on September 7, 2016
mmmm, way farther back than that. at least to the early republican period. freemasonry.
posted by listen, lady at 4:56 AM on September 7, 2016
if you look deep enough behind the curtain of any conspiracy theory you'll see that it is usually fed by those who benefit the most from the well being poisoned.
posted by any major dude at 5:40 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by any major dude at 5:40 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Back in 1964, Harper's ran a piece called The Paranoid Style in American Politics, detailing just how much conspiracy minded thinking is the background radiation of American politics. It's been with us a long time, but the Web seems to have given it new structure, and, like GamerGate, new tactics. It's become a lot easier for the fringe to share information, make plans, and act on those plans. Like real radiation, its toxicity increases with exposure, and right now it is threatening to push itself out of the background and into the mainstream. I mean, Trump is relying on exactly these tactics to push conspiracy theories he finds useful, like that Clinton has some secret illness.
posted by maxsparber at 5:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 5:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
You want the truth, hoaxers? The truth is that you are a bad person, and you should feel bad. That's a tough one, I know.
posted by fungible at 6:05 AM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by fungible at 6:05 AM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
I met a guy who studied conspiracy theories as a social phenomenon, and his suggestion was that a lot of modern conspiracy culture arose after the scope of the Manhattan Project was revealed. It probably didn't help that the CIA and FBI really were involved in top-secret surveillance of Americans and ratfucking foreign governments.
I think what makes postpostmodern discourse so toxic is that the internet makes harassment so much easier and directed than earlier communications systems.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think what makes postpostmodern discourse so toxic is that the internet makes harassment so much easier and directed than earlier communications systems.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Laotic: This is anecdotal but interestingly the only two people in my life who are conspiracy nutters are both well educated, British boarding school tyoe, educated atheists.
I agree that religion and bad education probably do account for the majority though.
posted by Cosine at 9:25 AM on September 7, 2016
I agree that religion and bad education probably do account for the majority though.
posted by Cosine at 9:25 AM on September 7, 2016
"...and his suggestion was that a lot of modern conspiracy culture arose after the scope of the Manhattan Project was revealed."
That's an interesting thesis even in historiographical comparitives. A recent show on PBS, The Bomb, I think, had one person positing that the advent of the bomb signified a new era in human history and chronological data suggests a moment in time, the shortest historical change in history, that the world is forever altered.
This book from 1947 seems to support at least the private sectors response to the new weapon.
Then there's Roswell to really sell the public movie tickets and science gear.
posted by clavdivs at 10:09 AM on September 7, 2016
That's an interesting thesis even in historiographical comparitives. A recent show on PBS, The Bomb, I think, had one person positing that the advent of the bomb signified a new era in human history and chronological data suggests a moment in time, the shortest historical change in history, that the world is forever altered.
This book from 1947 seems to support at least the private sectors response to the new weapon.
Then there's Roswell to really sell the public movie tickets and science gear.
posted by clavdivs at 10:09 AM on September 7, 2016
My dad was one of these, so much that nobody really noticed the gradual shift from "The government is coming to take our guns!" to "No seriously the government is right outside just waiting to come in here and take my guns."
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I couldn't finish reading this. Some people have forgotten what it means to be human and nothing will make them remember.
posted by tommasz at 11:47 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 11:47 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Thanks for the link to the blog about the psychology of conspiracy theories, thetortoise.
posted by epersonae at 12:39 PM on September 7, 2016
posted by epersonae at 12:39 PM on September 7, 2016
I've only unfriended a few people outright on Facebook, at least of those people I know personally, IRL. One of those was a friend who refused to stop posting Sandy Hook hoaxer bullshit. It was just too ghoulish for me, and it ultimately made me not want to know her anymore. I mean we all have delusions, but when your sense of empathy doesn't surface when it's clear that this kind of delusion causes real damage to grieving people, it's a clear sign that something is going on that could damage other people in your circles. The subject of this article has practically destroyed his marriage over it, not to mention the targets of his harassment, and yet he persists, to the detriment of himself and anyone around him.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by krinklyfig at 3:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with what a lot of people here have said; these people like solid answers and hate ambiguity. Most of them seem to feel they are following solid science in their theorizing and ignoring feelings.
Right, but with an outsized share of narcissism, magical and messianic thinking. They are the heroes of their own narratives, which means they're fighting for a righteous cause, no matter who gets hurt.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:01 PM on September 7, 2016
Right, but with an outsized share of narcissism, magical and messianic thinking. They are the heroes of their own narratives, which means they're fighting for a righteous cause, no matter who gets hurt.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:01 PM on September 7, 2016
Apparently the same government that had no qualms killing thousands of people on 9/11 balked at killing a couple dozen people at Sandy Hook.
posted by brundlefly at 5:07 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 5:07 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
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No, it really isn't, you gaping festering wound in the face of common human decency.
posted by Shepherd at 1:39 PM on September 6, 2016 [51 favorites]