everything comes down to SA vs. 4chan
September 7, 2016 7:30 AM Subscribe
now, you can look back at that and cringe, or (if you were around back then) look back and that and go “man, how the hell is neil cicierega still an internet celebrity?”, tho you could ask the same thing about dril, who back in those days was a newgrounds superstar who i will not reference or link out of courtesy / a sense of shared guilt – christ, some of my old shit is on youtube too, apparently i was an ~indie animator~ worthy of archiving when i was 12 – but imo the interesting thing here is how the transition from paleozoic (specifically, permian) to mesozoic (the current era) internet culture occurred alongside a total shift in aesthetics. if you’re old enough to remember the permian internet, you look back on it and cringe – you can’t help it. why?
Pthag on the history of SA politics
A quick history of 4chan and the rightists who killed it (guest post)
4chan boarders weigh in on the state of memes in 2015
Limiting the damage from cultures in collision
“Going by what you are saying, it is possible to view the whole “internet culture war” as a bizarre civil war between elements originating on one or two internet forums about a decade ago.”Somethingawful Vs 4chan?
Yeah, not only am I old, but I look at that picopop video posted and go, yeah that's pretty cool.
Meanwhile, I was just trying to explain what ASCII porn was to a 23 year old.
posted by fungible at 7:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile, I was just trying to explain what ASCII porn was to a 23 year old.
posted by fungible at 7:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
I like it when people talk about the things they know as if they constituted the whole of the universe instead of a tiny corner of it. It's cute.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [66 favorites]
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [66 favorites]
I was banned from SA in 2000 (mod sass).. I mean, sheesh, kids these days.
posted by k5.user at 7:49 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by k5.user at 7:49 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Once when I was in high school, I remember agonizing over something in my social group, wondering to my mother about whether I should or shouldn't do something - "I'm not sure what my friends will think" - and that levelheaded, kindly woman suddenly burst out, "All your friends are creeps!"
And she was right. I suddenly knew it, and I fell over laughing. I didn't switch to hanging out with a better crowd, but I understood my world much better then. I'll never have my own kids, but I really wish I could give that moment to a number of young, earnest creators on the internet. Sometimes, you have to look up and realize you are surrounded by crumpled nonsense.
I am largely from the Archaean eon of the internet, but I did spend time on the SA forums about ten years ago. It was a valuable look into how men talk to each other when no women are around, which I'm sure is completely unrelated to my decision never to have kids.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:52 AM on September 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
And she was right. I suddenly knew it, and I fell over laughing. I didn't switch to hanging out with a better crowd, but I understood my world much better then. I'll never have my own kids, but I really wish I could give that moment to a number of young, earnest creators on the internet. Sometimes, you have to look up and realize you are surrounded by crumpled nonsense.
I am largely from the Archaean eon of the internet, but I did spend time on the SA forums about ten years ago. It was a valuable look into how men talk to each other when no women are around, which I'm sure is completely unrelated to my decision never to have kids.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:52 AM on September 7, 2016 [28 favorites]
I read the "4chan boarders weigh in" article, and now I feel gross.
The interviewees talk about the shittier elements of chan culture as if it's something that other people do, you understand, not something they would ever participate in: dysfunctional relationships with video game characters, organized harassment of a random Internet user because she's autistic and gender-dysphoric, etc.
And, yet, they're really enthusiastic and knowledgeable about these unpleasant minutiae of the Internet's underbelly. Sure, it's gross and disturbing (they seem to say), but why not enjoy the popcorn?
Well, because it's fucking gross and disturbing. Because if you sit there and happily munch on popcorn while observing a train wreck, it's gonna be difficult to believe you when you say "my, isn't this train wreck terrible?".
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:54 AM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
The interviewees talk about the shittier elements of chan culture as if it's something that other people do, you understand, not something they would ever participate in: dysfunctional relationships with video game characters, organized harassment of a random Internet user because she's autistic and gender-dysphoric, etc.
And, yet, they're really enthusiastic and knowledgeable about these unpleasant minutiae of the Internet's underbelly. Sure, it's gross and disturbing (they seem to say), but why not enjoy the popcorn?
Well, because it's fucking gross and disturbing. Because if you sit there and happily munch on popcorn while observing a train wreck, it's gonna be difficult to believe you when you say "my, isn't this train wreck terrible?".
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:54 AM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]
Just to expand a little on my comment - I'm pretty sure there's whole world of Japanese-speaking internet, for instance, that these articles have no idea about, that was well developed and going strong back into the 90s.
Everyone's corner of the internet was their whole experience, and while these histories might be interesting for people who participated in SA and 4chan, I don't think these experiences were as seminal or universal as these authors seem to think.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:55 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Everyone's corner of the internet was their whole experience, and while these histories might be interesting for people who participated in SA and 4chan, I don't think these experiences were as seminal or universal as these authors seem to think.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:55 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
This whole thing reads like someone discovered Blink 182 and thought they invented punk. What Internet culture war? 'tis been this way since the beginning.
posted by geoff. at 7:55 AM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by geoff. at 7:55 AM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Holy fuck, I am apparently from the Cambrian era? I think?
I'm assuming that the invention of the WWW is equivalent to the oxygen catastrophe in this dating system. It's all a bit remniscient of the bullshit that filled my e-zine back in the Neoarchean.
posted by sfenders at 7:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm assuming that the invention of the WWW is equivalent to the oxygen catastrophe in this dating system. It's all a bit remniscient of the bullshit that filled my e-zine back in the Neoarchean.
posted by sfenders at 7:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Huh, I haven't seen "SomethingAwful did SJWs!" silliness in a while. At least this person is putting some effort in to expand on it, I guess?
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've been making my living, such as it is, from the Internet since 1994. I might as well have been in the room with linus, I guess.
posted by maxwelton at 8:00 AM on September 7, 2016
posted by maxwelton at 8:00 AM on September 7, 2016
I've been on SA since 2000, so I've had fun watching internet culture develop and had the joy of watching formally SA things like Impact font for image macros (ahem, sorry, "memes") spread from there across the internet to become as ubiquitous as Comic Sans. It's great fun for the historian in me.
Both SA and 4chan are very different than they were back in the day, but the general aesthetic still survives in both. Being on SA at the time, when 4chan started it was just viewed as the place where all the anime pedophiles permabanned from SA went to, and I never did really lose that impression enough to bother with it, especially since I was by then used to a forum style of posting and found the anonymous transience of chan-style life annoying as all hell.
I know SA much better, and I'd have to say the general outraged view from alt-rightists as it becoming some haven of social justice is hilarious, since they continue to have the same general sense of contempt for anything in earnest that they always have had, left or right. There's still regular threads mocking tumblr justice teens (right next to mock threads on religious facebook copypasta); you just can't post "nigger" and "faggot" all the time any more. (Also, SA was heavily involved in taking down the reddit jailbait/pedo subreddits, and so alt-righters from reddit in particular have been especially inclined to see SA as a crusading force for justice as a result).
The 2010 crackdown you see mentioned in some of the writing linked above was about banning racism, particularly its most obnoxious varieties, not about becoming a left-wing site (I remember Lowtax, the site owner, mentioning that racism fundamentally wasn't funny, which was to me a good summation of how the site is run: comedy first, and lazy humour is fundamentally bad humour, which is also why memes have a very short shelf-life on SA before they become bannable offenses). But to an alt-rightist, all this is pretty much 1984 cultural cuckmarxism.
This whole thing reads like someone discovered Blink 182 and thought they invented punk. What Internet culture war? 'tis been this way since the beginning.
I can't say I remember it that way. Cultures develop, internet-based cultures even more rapidly than normal. YMMV.
posted by Palindromedary at 8:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Both SA and 4chan are very different than they were back in the day, but the general aesthetic still survives in both. Being on SA at the time, when 4chan started it was just viewed as the place where all the anime pedophiles permabanned from SA went to, and I never did really lose that impression enough to bother with it, especially since I was by then used to a forum style of posting and found the anonymous transience of chan-style life annoying as all hell.
I know SA much better, and I'd have to say the general outraged view from alt-rightists as it becoming some haven of social justice is hilarious, since they continue to have the same general sense of contempt for anything in earnest that they always have had, left or right. There's still regular threads mocking tumblr justice teens (right next to mock threads on religious facebook copypasta); you just can't post "nigger" and "faggot" all the time any more. (Also, SA was heavily involved in taking down the reddit jailbait/pedo subreddits, and so alt-righters from reddit in particular have been especially inclined to see SA as a crusading force for justice as a result).
The 2010 crackdown you see mentioned in some of the writing linked above was about banning racism, particularly its most obnoxious varieties, not about becoming a left-wing site (I remember Lowtax, the site owner, mentioning that racism fundamentally wasn't funny, which was to me a good summation of how the site is run: comedy first, and lazy humour is fundamentally bad humour, which is also why memes have a very short shelf-life on SA before they become bannable offenses). But to an alt-rightist, all this is pretty much 1984 cultural cuckmarxism.
This whole thing reads like someone discovered Blink 182 and thought they invented punk. What Internet culture war? 'tis been this way since the beginning.
I can't say I remember it that way. Cultures develop, internet-based cultures even more rapidly than normal. YMMV.
posted by Palindromedary at 8:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
Seriously, go poke your head in GBS right now if you think SA is a teeming hive of SJWism.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:06 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:06 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
that was well developed and going strong back into the 90s.
Usenet went live in 1980ish. Mailing lists predate that. "Internet culture" has existed in some form or other shortly after the first packets were sent.
posted by bonehead at 8:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Usenet went live in 1980ish. Mailing lists predate that. "Internet culture" has existed in some form or other shortly after the first packets were sent.
posted by bonehead at 8:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
i'm just here for the torrentz
(note to the nsa: i only torrent linux isos kthxkbai)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
(note to the nsa: i only torrent linux isos kthxkbai)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Is there some way we can seal of of this in an impenetrable bubble so they can only mess with each other and not fuck up anything real? Firing them all into the sun also an option.
posted by Artw at 8:08 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:08 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
What Internet culture war?
If you're really into a particular scene (in this case, lulzy memetic Internet nonsense), then controversies and schisms within that scene can seem of exaggerated importance.
But the SA/4chan style nerdbros-on-Mountain-Dew Internet is not the entirety of "Internet culture" – not by a long shot. It only seems that way if you spend 12 hours a day immersed in it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
If you're really into a particular scene (in this case, lulzy memetic Internet nonsense), then controversies and schisms within that scene can seem of exaggerated importance.
But the SA/4chan style nerdbros-on-Mountain-Dew Internet is not the entirety of "Internet culture" – not by a long shot. It only seems that way if you spend 12 hours a day immersed in it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
"A lot of the cool funny internet stuff we know and love - LOLcats, Doge, etc. - came from a site called 4chan. But recently, 4chan has become a gathering place for online rightist movements like GamerGate and various racists. How did this come to pass?"
*spits out coffee*
Interesting view of 4chan. Not sure which 4chan he was on back in the day if all he remembers are LOLcats and Doge.
posted by I-baLL at 8:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
*spits out coffee*
Interesting view of 4chan. Not sure which 4chan he was on back in the day if all he remembers are LOLcats and Doge.
posted by I-baLL at 8:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
I thought the theory was that 4chan were "useful idiots" for the inciters of gamergate? A mob primed for attack which was then martialed a largely directed by provocateurs for their own ends (mostly self-promotion and profit, in the case of that Breitbart journalist).
posted by bonehead at 8:13 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 8:13 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cultures develop, internet-based cultures even more rapidly than normal.
Right but SA and 4chan, while on the forefront of some things, are not the sole fount of human culture that thisdude person thinks they are. If anything they are just higher visibility versions of the cultural activity that has been taking place across the internet ever since the internet became the world. Even on (shudders) facebook.
One thing I've been thinking about a lot is the niche forum. I was on a bunch of stand alone asynchronous forums for a bunch of stuff, mostly poker, back in the day, which expanded to be about more than the shared hobby. There were literally white supremacists on there chatting with nerdy college kids and moms about statistics. Then Obama got elected, poker profits collapsed and it became a battleground for the ol SJW v Alt-right freakout party that everywhere else became.
In the future will people ever bother to congregate online again in new communication forums? Will there be a phbb-like explosion of niche conversations that allow people of different backgrounds and beliefs to discuss a shared interest cordially again?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:14 AM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Right but SA and 4chan, while on the forefront of some things, are not the sole fount of human culture that this
One thing I've been thinking about a lot is the niche forum. I was on a bunch of stand alone asynchronous forums for a bunch of stuff, mostly poker, back in the day, which expanded to be about more than the shared hobby. There were literally white supremacists on there chatting with nerdy college kids and moms about statistics. Then Obama got elected, poker profits collapsed and it became a battleground for the ol SJW v Alt-right freakout party that everywhere else became.
In the future will people ever bother to congregate online again in new communication forums? Will there be a phbb-like explosion of niche conversations that allow people of different backgrounds and beliefs to discuss a shared interest cordially again?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:14 AM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]
Usenet went live in 1980ish. Mailing lists predate that. "Internet culture" has existed in some form or other shortly after the first packets were sent.
No duh. I said Japanese internet, but I was actually meaning to say "Japanese language websites."
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:16 AM on September 7, 2016
No duh. I said Japanese internet, but I was actually meaning to say "Japanese language websites."
posted by Squeak Attack at 8:16 AM on September 7, 2016
In the future will people ever bother to congregate online again in new communication forums? Will there be a phbb-like explosion of niche conversations that allow people of different backgrounds and beliefs to discuss a shared interest cordially again?
They'll be shitty, feature-poor Facebook subcommunities, like they are now.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:20 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
They'll be shitty, feature-poor Facebook subcommunities, like they are now.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:20 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jesus, I guess I'm old enough to be proud of archaic anglophone Internet culture. Even though I was and am way more into suck.com, I still laugh at * Ate My Balls, and some of the folks I bantered and theorized with on alt dot books dot stephen dash king have now published books about Stephen King. (I was 16 in 1995 when the Internet first came to my hometown, maybe that has something to do with it? Gotta talk with my younger brother—a longtime member of usenet's something.something.mjfans—about this.)
posted by infinitewindow at 8:21 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 8:21 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Catchy as the phrase "Permian Internet" is - I'm tempted to adopt it - dating the Internet in terms of geological periods quickly runs into difficulties. Internet years go by incredibly fast when trying to establish eras, and trying to break those down into periods has a hard time scaling to human experience.
Was the Web 2.0 conference of 2004 the Permian–Triassic extinction event, for instance? That term was coined in 1999, the same year that SA was founded, as well as Fark and Metafilter. 4chan, on the other hand, arrived much later than them, in 2003, although one could argue that its relaunch in 2004 after going dark for a couple of months is the more applicable date (and the same year of Digg's and Anonymous's foundings). SA and 4chan therefore can be placed in the Paleozoic Internet era, but I'd argue that the former is from the Carboniferous and the latter from the Permian. It's that distinction in Internet ages from which the rivalry springs - call it Megarachne vs. Blattoptera.
On the hand, comparing the number of scandals and controversies that 4chan has been embroiled in vs. SA's donnybrooks suggests that one is an Internet forum with its own peculiar culture while the other is just a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:21 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Was the Web 2.0 conference of 2004 the Permian–Triassic extinction event, for instance? That term was coined in 1999, the same year that SA was founded, as well as Fark and Metafilter. 4chan, on the other hand, arrived much later than them, in 2003, although one could argue that its relaunch in 2004 after going dark for a couple of months is the more applicable date (and the same year of Digg's and Anonymous's foundings). SA and 4chan therefore can be placed in the Paleozoic Internet era, but I'd argue that the former is from the Carboniferous and the latter from the Permian. It's that distinction in Internet ages from which the rivalry springs - call it Megarachne vs. Blattoptera.
On the hand, comparing the number of scandals and controversies that 4chan has been embroiled in vs. SA's donnybrooks suggests that one is an Internet forum with its own peculiar culture while the other is just a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:21 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the thesis about the continuing influence of 4chan and SA is kinda right? Though obviously there are other sites in there and it's not actually surprising that people who were on the Internet in 2004 are still there now it's just weird how much one runs into personae one recognizes. Besides that bit I don't know what the hell the author is talking about most of the time.
posted by atoxyl at 8:21 AM on September 7, 2016
posted by atoxyl at 8:21 AM on September 7, 2016
There are people out there who spent their formative years being assholes on a imageboard and now as adults they are super nostalgic about their experiences and busy whitewashing the past. Depressing.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:22 AM on September 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:22 AM on September 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
Anyone else noticed that some of the folks linked here refer to themselves as fascists?
posted by jmhodges at 8:28 AM on September 7, 2016
posted by jmhodges at 8:28 AM on September 7, 2016
op neglected to mention the influence of ambien on sa culture
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:29 AM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
posted by entropicamericana at 8:29 AM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Anyone else noticed that some of the folks linked here refer to themselves as fascists?
He still pretends to be a liberal, but the slate star codex guy basically has all the time and empathy and patience in the world for the darkest depths of neoreaction and none whatsoever for the left soooooooooo
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:31 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
He still pretends to be a liberal, but the slate star codex guy basically has all the time and empathy and patience in the world for the darkest depths of neoreaction and none whatsoever for the left soooooooooo
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:31 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
And I guess that's part of what I was getting at earlier- the whole overanalysis of Something Awful v 4chan, dragging in helldump and LF, that's all deeply characteristic of nothing so much as alt-righters trying to work out the origins of the alt-right. The left (and SA, for that matter) doesn't produce writing on this topic because it's not really relevant or interesting.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:33 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:33 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
GBS was better when I ran it. LF was always a joke, just maybe one that the posters weren't in on. SA has always had a very diverse group of mods and admins - women, LGBT, POC. Fistgrrl basically ran the place for years while Lowtax farted around Missouri.
Also this all used to be orange groves. As far as the eye could see.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 8:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Also this all used to be orange groves. As far as the eye could see.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 8:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
The origins of the alt-right are that people who spend all their time "ironically" being Nazis pretty much just turn out to be Nazis.
posted by Artw at 8:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
Will there be a phbb-like explosion of niche conversations that allow people of different backgrounds and beliefs to discuss a shared interest cordially again?
I frequent an (ancient) PHPbb forum for the few remaining die-hard fans of a certain (equally ancient) video game. It's a strange, fading relic of 1999-era Internet culture – everything from the design and layout, to the style of interaction (an almost naïve friendliness, lots of corny [pre-emoji!] smilies, screen names like "TheeDarkLord", etc.).
Basically, it forged its community before vileness and harassment became the official sport of the Internet. And by the time that wave came along, it was off the radar enough to avoid getting swept up by it, I guess. It's just a bunch of thirty- and forty-something ex-goth-ish nerds from around the globe, who happened (in the halcyon days of the early web) to discover a shared love of a game. There's been a lot of attrition over the years, of course. But there's still a core contingent hanging on, against all odds, still having civil, friendly, enthusiastic 90s-style conversations about this 90s-era game on this 90s-era bulletin board.
Issues do arise, of course – but they're remarkably few and far between, and if that's due to good moderation, I've never seen much evidence of the moderators. It seems to be mostly self-policing. And there's absolutely zero of the trolling / toxicity that are de rigeur on the mainstream Internet these days. People just seem to be pleased, in that guileless, early-web, golly-this-Internet-thing-is-neat way, to be able to talk about their geeky interest with other people across the globe.
I don't know if it's related or not, but I don't think I've ever seen a meme there.
So, there's one example of a surviving untainted oasis. I don't know if it's a just a freak occurrence, or if there's some explanation for it. I'll be sad when it finally dries up, though.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I frequent an (ancient) PHPbb forum for the few remaining die-hard fans of a certain (equally ancient) video game. It's a strange, fading relic of 1999-era Internet culture – everything from the design and layout, to the style of interaction (an almost naïve friendliness, lots of corny [pre-emoji!] smilies, screen names like "TheeDarkLord", etc.).
Basically, it forged its community before vileness and harassment became the official sport of the Internet. And by the time that wave came along, it was off the radar enough to avoid getting swept up by it, I guess. It's just a bunch of thirty- and forty-something ex-goth-ish nerds from around the globe, who happened (in the halcyon days of the early web) to discover a shared love of a game. There's been a lot of attrition over the years, of course. But there's still a core contingent hanging on, against all odds, still having civil, friendly, enthusiastic 90s-style conversations about this 90s-era game on this 90s-era bulletin board.
Issues do arise, of course – but they're remarkably few and far between, and if that's due to good moderation, I've never seen much evidence of the moderators. It seems to be mostly self-policing. And there's absolutely zero of the trolling / toxicity that are de rigeur on the mainstream Internet these days. People just seem to be pleased, in that guileless, early-web, golly-this-Internet-thing-is-neat way, to be able to talk about their geeky interest with other people across the globe.
I don't know if it's related or not, but I don't think I've ever seen a meme there.
So, there's one example of a surviving untainted oasis. I don't know if it's a just a freak occurrence, or if there's some explanation for it. I'll be sad when it finally dries up, though.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have no idea what the fuck this guy is talking about, but yes, the internet and its immediate precursors were vastly better in the 80s and 90s than much of what we have now. I have zero old man guilt about feeling sorry for kids who will never get to experience that.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:51 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 8:51 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
SA is cool and good
posted by overeducated_alligator at 8:52 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by overeducated_alligator at 8:52 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
This comment is the holocene internet.
posted by rlk at 8:59 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rlk at 8:59 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Japanese language websites."
Didn't really exist until 2000 or so, when the country got reasonably priced residential IP service. Prior to that Japan had a weird mishmash of apps and sites based mostly on mobile access that was largely fragmented from the larger web.
posted by bonehead at 9:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Didn't really exist until 2000 or so, when the country got reasonably priced residential IP service. Prior to that Japan had a weird mishmash of apps and sites based mostly on mobile access that was largely fragmented from the larger web.
posted by bonehead at 9:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
*clears throat* Ahem:
Something Awful is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In Something Awful you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the Something Awful motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.
(I mean, isn't it?)
posted by Fraxas at 9:01 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Something Awful is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In Something Awful you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the Something Awful motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.
(I mean, isn't it?)
posted by Fraxas at 9:01 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Come to think of it, given how widespread child abuse is on the far right, it's maybe not surprising that the alt-right comes from a website whose initial userbase was people kicked off a different website for being pedophiles.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Was the Web 2.0 conference of 2004 the Permian–Triassic extinction event, for instance?
Internet paleontologists are divided on the question of whether the subsequent extinction event can be traced directly to the Web 2.0 Conference of 2004, or whether a shift in meme circulation patterns caused by youtube-related climate change was more important.
At this rate the K-T boundary must be rapidly approaching, so good luck everyone.
posted by sfenders at 9:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Internet paleontologists are divided on the question of whether the subsequent extinction event can be traced directly to the Web 2.0 Conference of 2004, or whether a shift in meme circulation patterns caused by youtube-related climate change was more important.
At this rate the K-T boundary must be rapidly approaching, so good luck everyone.
posted by sfenders at 9:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have no idea what the fuck this guy is talking about, but yes, the internet and its immediate precursors were vastly better in the 80s and 90s than much of what we have now. I have zero old man guilt about feeling sorry for kids who will never get to experience that.
I agree and I wish I didn't. I had just been about to add that I think the internet was a less destructive influence on people when it was more like a faucet - that is, fixed in a spot, requiring physical presence, affecting your bill with each discrete use, inevitably invoking the adults in the house if it is abused. Then I realized I might as well write technology was just fine when I was young but now it has gone TOO FAR. I don't want that web back, not really. I just miss it.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:13 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I agree and I wish I didn't. I had just been about to add that I think the internet was a less destructive influence on people when it was more like a faucet - that is, fixed in a spot, requiring physical presence, affecting your bill with each discrete use, inevitably invoking the adults in the house if it is abused. Then I realized I might as well write technology was just fine when I was young but now it has gone TOO FAR. I don't want that web back, not really. I just miss it.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:13 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
spidey spidey
tell me true
you'll find my flower
on I C Q.
posted by mule98J at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
tell me true
you'll find my flower
on I C Q.
posted by mule98J at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Something Awful used to get really pissed when linked from here
posted by thelonius at 9:30 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 9:30 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of worried that this entire post made perfect sense to me.
posted by sonmi at 9:37 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by sonmi at 9:37 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
...the kinds of adults that the SA and 4channers have become?
posted by bonehead at 9:39 AM on September 7, 2016
posted by bonehead at 9:39 AM on September 7, 2016
it's not really relevant or interesting
disagree entirely
posted by atoxyl at 9:50 AM on September 7, 2016
disagree entirely
posted by atoxyl at 9:50 AM on September 7, 2016
All this talk about corners of the internet reminds me that I miss Adequacy.org.
posted by The arrows are too fast at 10:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by The arrows are too fast at 10:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
b3ta is still rolling along.
posted by lagomorphius at 10:14 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by lagomorphius at 10:14 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Kibo.
I've also been a member of this site longer than any of the events mentioned in this article.
I am only in my mid thirties.
I don't know what any of this means.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:16 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've also been a member of this site longer than any of the events mentioned in this article.
I am only in my mid thirties.
I don't know what any of this means.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:16 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Will there be a phbb-like explosion of niche conversations that allow people of different backgrounds and beliefs to discuss a shared interest cordially again?
Absolutely! (in my limited experience anyways)
It really seems to me to come down to specificity - for example I am on message boards focusing on several old table-top role-playing games, and get a lot out of these sites, but I'll never bother participating in more general RPG forums because the noise overwhelms the signal too easily.
And it's also easier for assholes to just get by when there's more of a crowd for them to blend in to when needed.
posted by Golem XIV at 10:20 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Absolutely! (in my limited experience anyways)
It really seems to me to come down to specificity - for example I am on message boards focusing on several old table-top role-playing games, and get a lot out of these sites, but I'll never bother participating in more general RPG forums because the noise overwhelms the signal too easily.
And it's also easier for assholes to just get by when there's more of a crowd for them to blend in to when needed.
posted by Golem XIV at 10:20 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Me, I think it all traces back to the Romo/No-romo disputes on the AOL X-Files discussion groups, BUT WHAT DO I KNOW.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 10:30 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
but I'll never bother participating in more general RPG forums
1996: Now you can easily connect with people all over the world that share your interests, even if it's something unusual like tabletop role-playing games. Anyone can find a niche that suits them somewhere on the net, be it an online BBS, a newsgroup, a web forum, or a mailing list.
2016: Don't even bother, unless your interests are at least as narrow and obscure as this one old tabletop role-playing game. You may as well just keep your seat on the back of SA, 4chan, metafilter, reddit, facebook, or whichever other giant centralized lumbering dinosaur suits you best.
posted by sfenders at 10:53 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
1996: Now you can easily connect with people all over the world that share your interests, even if it's something unusual like tabletop role-playing games. Anyone can find a niche that suits them somewhere on the net, be it an online BBS, a newsgroup, a web forum, or a mailing list.
2016: Don't even bother, unless your interests are at least as narrow and obscure as this one old tabletop role-playing game. You may as well just keep your seat on the back of SA, 4chan, metafilter, reddit, facebook, or whichever other giant centralized lumbering dinosaur suits you best.
posted by sfenders at 10:53 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
The transition I've noticed with 4chan-esque racism/sexism, including with past friends, is one from casual engagement to ideological conviction. In youth their shittiness was shapeless and ignorant, it was not openly bellicose and based on disgusting philosophies. Before, their casual racism/sexism was about frivolity and devoid of systemic thought. Today, they have integrated the old attitudes into full belief systems and politics.
I think this coincides with the aging of some of the original crowd. The movement is spearheaded by a specific late-millenial cohort. The kids I knew who thought it was funny to say slurs online when they were 12 are now 25. Unlike when they were 12, many of their privileges are now being challenged. It's a literal reactionary movement. They don't want to cede sentimental memories and garbage habits to ESS JAY DUBYUE bogeymen.
What we are witnessing is a blossoming of that initial informal internet education. This is where all that casual engagement leads; Jokingly insinuating that people of colour are lesser can eventually crystallize into an actual belief. Parents and other concerned adults ten years ago falsely assumed that children would grow out of it, instead of becoming politically committed fascist and white supremacists. Or they may have aided and abetted by surreptitiously holding racist views of their own.
posted by constantinescharity at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
I think this coincides with the aging of some of the original crowd. The movement is spearheaded by a specific late-millenial cohort. The kids I knew who thought it was funny to say slurs online when they were 12 are now 25. Unlike when they were 12, many of their privileges are now being challenged. It's a literal reactionary movement. They don't want to cede sentimental memories and garbage habits to ESS JAY DUBYUE bogeymen.
What we are witnessing is a blossoming of that initial informal internet education. This is where all that casual engagement leads; Jokingly insinuating that people of colour are lesser can eventually crystallize into an actual belief. Parents and other concerned adults ten years ago falsely assumed that children would grow out of it, instead of becoming politically committed fascist and white supremacists. Or they may have aided and abetted by surreptitiously holding racist views of their own.
posted by constantinescharity at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]
Given my starting point is 1985, does that make me Eoarchean?
posted by tavella at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2016
posted by tavella at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2016
> flash died a just death because adobe is garbage and horrifically mismanaged the product it inherited from macromedia,
Dear SVZM, I worked professionally with Flash around 2000 and I can attest that it was garbage well before Adobe ever touched it.
posted by egypturnash at 11:26 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Dear SVZM, I worked professionally with Flash around 2000 and I can attest that it was garbage well before Adobe ever touched it.
posted by egypturnash at 11:26 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
cntl F ytmnd.com not found... probably a good thing.
posted by eustatic at 11:26 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 11:26 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Metafilter is just perfect, emerging from the Big Bang itself. and yes, I'm from the 1994/5 lynx browser era
posted by infini at 11:50 AM on September 7, 2016
posted by infini at 11:50 AM on September 7, 2016
The transition I've noticed with 4chan-esque racism/sexism, including with past friends, is one from casual engagement to ideological conviction.
It's funny because I was going to say, well, not the opposite, but that I know a lot of people who thought that kind of shit was funny as teenagers - certainly joking around about Nazism though that particular case is a little different because my circle of friends then was heavily Jewish so we knew we couldn't really be serious - and very few of them turned out to be serious about it. I'm thinking of a specific person in particular who was once more or less 4chan personified but seems to be - kinda normal now? So I think a lot of people did grow out of it - the question is what made the difference between those who did and those who didn't (the outside world intervening is one obvious guess.)
And while I don't know whether SA and 4chan can really be positioned as taking polar opposite courses I've also felt like a few years ago all the web fora I was on hit a fork in the road and turned right or left.
posted by atoxyl at 11:50 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's funny because I was going to say, well, not the opposite, but that I know a lot of people who thought that kind of shit was funny as teenagers - certainly joking around about Nazism though that particular case is a little different because my circle of friends then was heavily Jewish so we knew we couldn't really be serious - and very few of them turned out to be serious about it. I'm thinking of a specific person in particular who was once more or less 4chan personified but seems to be - kinda normal now? So I think a lot of people did grow out of it - the question is what made the difference between those who did and those who didn't (the outside world intervening is one obvious guess.)
And while I don't know whether SA and 4chan can really be positioned as taking polar opposite courses I've also felt like a few years ago all the web fora I was on hit a fork in the road and turned right or left.
posted by atoxyl at 11:50 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The OP of the FPP (not the RTFA) is trolling us. Mightyly. Yes.
posted by infini at 11:53 AM on September 7, 2016
posted by infini at 11:53 AM on September 7, 2016
So here I am reading this thread in Lynx, and the internet curmudgeon in me is feeling the salience of these geologic comparisons. Upthread someone mentioned the WWW being the internet's oxygen catastrophe and Usenet being the Archean. This is obviously wrong. The correct spurious analogy is as follows:
- Hadean Era: The first life. The first packet switching experiments in the 1960s. The Late Heavy Bombardment bring most of the water that would become the ocean: ARPANET, NPL, CYCLADES, etc. Computing is done in ALL CAPS as lower case has yet to evolve.
- Archean Era: Photosynthesis: TCP/IP is standardized and goes global. First oxygen (commercial activity) created as toxic byproduct. First spam. Early life is anaerobic, relying on public funding from military and academic sources.
- Proterozoic: Oxygen catastrophe, AOL, the Eternal September: commercial activity becomes the dominant driver of the web. Eukaryotes: the first web browsers. Mass extinction of anaerobic prokaryotes and Usenet is inferred, difficult to confirm through thin record of microfossils from this era.
- Phanerozoic: Multi-cellular life. The current internet eon. Global public ISPs: Cambrian explosion. Dot-Com boom: radiation of vertebrates and first tetrapods on land: the beginning of mass public participation on the internet with message boards, Angelfire, Geocities, etc. Dot-com crash: Permian-Triassic Extinction. Dinosaurs: the first social networks appear, Friendster, MySpace and other macrofauna abundant in fossil record. Golden age of reptiles: blogs, user-generated content, peer-to-peer protocols, pterosaurs, mosasaurs, icthyosaurs proliferate. Era of client-side web (endothermy) begins. Cretaceous-Paleogene Extinction: Global Financial Crisis: External forces deliver massive shock. Extinction of most Archosaurs: only birds (Twitter) and 4chan (crocodilians) survive. Age of mammals (social media).
Specifically, we're in a Paleozoic era, likely a Cambrian explosion, based on the number of Android models currently on the market. This will assuredly all end in fire.
posted by bonehead at 12:21 PM on September 7, 2016
posted by bonehead at 12:21 PM on September 7, 2016
So I think a lot of people did grow out of it - the question is what made the difference between those who did and those who didn't (the outside world intervening is one obvious guess.)
Well, the ones who grew out of it probably stopped going on 4chan, for one thing.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, the ones who grew out of it probably stopped going on 4chan, for one thing.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mass extinction of anaerobic prokaryotes and Usenet is inferred, difficult to confirm through thin record of microfossils from this era.
You hear whispers every once in a while of living Usenet posts still discovered near deep-sea oceanic vents.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:26 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
You hear whispers every once in a while of living Usenet posts still discovered near deep-sea oceanic vents.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:26 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]
Me, I think it all traces back to the Romo/No-romo disputes on the AOL X-Files discussion groups, BUT WHAT DO I KNOW.
That was my tiny corner of the internet - X-Files newsgroups, and then various TV websites. Shifting aesthetics of television recaps from rec.arts.tv to present day, blah blah.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
That was my tiny corner of the internet - X-Files newsgroups, and then various TV websites. Shifting aesthetics of television recaps from rec.arts.tv to present day, blah blah.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's funny because I was going to say, well, not the opposite, but that I know a lot of people who thought that kind of shit was funny as teenagers - certainly joking around about Nazism though that particular case is a little different because my circle of friends then was heavily Jewish so we knew we couldn't really be serious - and very few of them turned out to be serious about it. I'm thinking of a specific person in particular who was once more or less 4chan personified but seems to be - kinda normal now? So I think a lot of people did grow out of it - the question is what made the difference between those who did and those who didn't (the outside world intervening is one obvious guess.)
A big part of the teenage aspect of this is that Nazi iconography is something that will literally never be co-opted or assimilated by mainstream pop culture. Yes, I know, there's some random shop in India or Japan called "Hitler" that gets memed and passed around in images, but the point is, these tropes will never be adopted by a major brand like McDonalds or Coca-Cola. They're just too radioactive. And kids can't talk to just anybody about them because they'll think they're weird or, well, a Nazi. So they have this built-in taboo aspect.
Also, pretending to be a Nazi will probably annoy most parents. So, it's perfect for rebellious teenagers who are going through their "f--- everything" phase.
Some of those teenagers will take these pursuits more seriously than others, and start reading the history and philosophy of these "forbidden" subjects. And of that subgroup, a smaller subgroup will actually take it to heart, and start thinking "hey, that's actually a pretty good idea".
posted by theorique at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
A big part of the teenage aspect of this is that Nazi iconography is something that will literally never be co-opted or assimilated by mainstream pop culture. Yes, I know, there's some random shop in India or Japan called "Hitler" that gets memed and passed around in images, but the point is, these tropes will never be adopted by a major brand like McDonalds or Coca-Cola. They're just too radioactive. And kids can't talk to just anybody about them because they'll think they're weird or, well, a Nazi. So they have this built-in taboo aspect.
Also, pretending to be a Nazi will probably annoy most parents. So, it's perfect for rebellious teenagers who are going through their "f--- everything" phase.
Some of those teenagers will take these pursuits more seriously than others, and start reading the history and philosophy of these "forbidden" subjects. And of that subgroup, a smaller subgroup will actually take it to heart, and start thinking "hey, that's actually a pretty good idea".
posted by theorique at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Metafilter: The correct spurious analogy is as follows
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Seriously, go poke your head in GBS right now if you think SA is a teeming hive of SJWism.
Well, that depends on which day of the week it is, almost. GBS policy shifts more often than SA users switch underpants.
(Also, how can so much be written about SA without anyone mentioning FYAD? The forum where "ironic" anything thrives?)
posted by ymgve at 1:36 PM on September 7, 2016
Well, that depends on which day of the week it is, almost. GBS policy shifts more often than SA users switch underpants.
(Also, how can so much be written about SA without anyone mentioning FYAD? The forum where "ironic" anything thrives?)
posted by ymgve at 1:36 PM on September 7, 2016
Proterozoic: Oxygen catastrophe, AOL, the Eternal September: commercial activity becomes the dominant driver of the web. Eukaryotes: the first web browsers. Mass extinction of anaerobic prokaryotes and Usenet is inferred, difficult to confirm through thin record of microfossils from this era.
Thank you for accurately carbon dating me. It's good to know where I lie in the strata of the internet. Though samples of my life form extend into layers both before and after this, this is likely where I was the most prolific.
posted by nubs at 1:42 PM on September 7, 2016
Thank you for accurately carbon dating me. It's good to know where I lie in the strata of the internet. Though samples of my life form extend into layers both before and after this, this is likely where I was the most prolific.
posted by nubs at 1:42 PM on September 7, 2016
I like it when people talk about the things they know as if they constituted the whole of the universe instead of a tiny corner of it. It's cute.
Back in the 90's there was this one newsgroup where Democrats and Republicans would argue with each other, and now it's like the whole country is just Democrats and Republicans arguing with each other! Who would have thought that newsgroup would so thoroughly take over the national conversation?
posted by straight at 2:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Back in the 90's there was this one newsgroup where Democrats and Republicans would argue with each other, and now it's like the whole country is just Democrats and Republicans arguing with each other! Who would have thought that newsgroup would so thoroughly take over the national conversation?
posted by straight at 2:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Who would have thought that newsgroup would so thoroughly take over the national conversation?
my money was alt.fan.karl-malden.nose tbqh
posted by entropicamericana at 2:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
my money was alt.fan.karl-malden.nose tbqh
posted by entropicamericana at 2:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh man, I remember Eternal September -- the months when my little corner of the universe, rec.arts.startrek.current, was flooded with "me too" requests for pics of Marina Sirtis. Not exactly oxygen. More like a sea level change before we all went extinct.
posted by PandaMomentum at 2:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by PandaMomentum at 2:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just realized what Metafilter would be in my analogy: a coelacanth.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 3:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 3:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
mfw i'm 12 and what is this
posted by house-of-leaves at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by house-of-leaves at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
▲ ▲ ▲posted by foobaz at 9:33 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
n00bs can't reconcile the chasm between authoritarian nihilism and normative moral relativism triforce
posted by infinitewindow at 10:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 10:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
/his/, on the other hand, can reconcile that chasm. But they can't triforce.
posted by foobaz at 11:03 PM on September 7, 2016
posted by foobaz at 11:03 PM on September 7, 2016
"There are people out there who spent their formative years being assholes on a imageboard and now as adults they are super nostalgic about their experiences and busy whitewashing the past. Depressing."
I agree with the sentiment but if you remove the "on an imageboard" part I think it's a phenomena as old as civilization.
posted by ethical_caligula at 6:09 AM on September 8, 2016
I agree with the sentiment but if you remove the "on an imageboard" part I think it's a phenomena as old as civilization.
posted by ethical_caligula at 6:09 AM on September 8, 2016
Just now, I realized that I belong to the Archaean era of the Internet--I remember seeing a Usenet post with actual UUCP bang paths in the header back around 1987, and started getting seriously online around 1991-1992.
On a related note, earlier today I heard Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax" as mall music.
I am old.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
On a related note, earlier today I heard Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax" as mall music.
I am old.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 7:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
alt.animals.lampreys is the future we could have had.
posted by chimpsonfilm at 1:33 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by chimpsonfilm at 1:33 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know not between whom World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought between SomethingAwful and 4Chan. World War V will be fought between Metafilter and the vast clone army of Pepe the Frog. World War VI will be a "redo" of World War I. World War VII will be the war of global resistance against the fascist corporatocracy of Zombocom.
posted by duffell at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016
posted by duffell at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016
Oh god do not visit alt.alien.vampires.flonk.flonk.flonk. It was always worthless shit but now its been Trumped. I fear for our nation.
posted by charred husk at 10:09 AM on September 12, 2016
posted by charred husk at 10:09 AM on September 12, 2016
« Older This has the makings of a vast conspiracy. | Mashers versus Suffragettes with hatpins... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Holy fuck, I am apparently from the Cambrian era? I think? I got online using a lynx text browser somewhere in the early 90s and went to usenet. I can also dimly remember life before the internet, which I guess means I extend into the Archean.
Man, some mornings I feel old. I didn't realize I was a fucking fossil until just now, though.
posted by nubs at 7:41 AM on September 7, 2016 [52 favorites]