Honestly, it's kind of draining
September 12, 2016 6:35 AM   Subscribe

Coming off Labor Day weekend, the POTUS candidates answered questions in the first Commander in Chief Forum, the clear loser of which was Matt Lauer. Hillary managed to move attention to Trump's "basket of deplorables" for a day, but then drew it back to herself by stumbling or collapsing while leaving a 9/11 memorial. Her camp blamed dehydration, then revealed she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday.

At his CinC Forum appearance, Trump confirmed his bromance with Putin. Gov. Mike Pence defended his running mate. Third party candidate (and former spook) Evan McMullin is concerned.

Looking ahead, Trump is speaking to the National Guard Association in Baltimore today at 1:00 EDT. Hillary has canceled a west coast trip after yesterday's events, but is still scheduled for Ellen DeGeneres' show on Wednesday.

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lampshade's voter resource roundup:
posted by ChurchHatesTucker (3199 comments total) 93 users marked this as a favorite
 
> Honestly, it's kind of draining

Clenched jaw and a forced smile, the American way!
posted by Tevin at 6:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


via Kristen Anderson Lopez (author of "Let it Go" and other earworms):

So Hillary was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday. Well, I'm here to witness that I stood in line with over 200 people to grab 30 seconds and a picture with her on Friday night before she was slated to do a big speech. It was a madhouse. And yet, when Bobby and I stepped up for our turn and introduced ourselves, she smiled warmly and her encyclopedic mind remembered that I have an a cappella musical coming to Broadway.

I mean. . .this was HRC with pneumonia and a giant crowd clamoring for her attention at the end of a long day of a long week. And she can access info about an aCapella musical?

I mean. . .i had heard about her incredible mind - how she stores everything and has access to the minutest details. But I witnessed it first hand. And she probably had a fever and should have been in bed.

This is the mind I want representing and making decisions for our country.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [275 favorites]


I mean. . .this was HRC with pneumonia and a giant crowd clamoring for her attention at the end of a long day of a long week. And she can access info about an aCapella musical?

Knope Clinton 2016!

get on your feet! come on and make it happen!
posted by Talez at 6:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [51 favorites]


Thank god the conservative right finally cares about a woman's health...
posted by cooker girl at 6:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [224 favorites]


I think on Ellen's show, Ellen should ask about Hillary's health, then do the excited Ellen thing and go right to asking if she can see the armor suit Hillary is rumored to wear and then we get a clip of Hillary in Sigourney Weaver's Mecha from that Aliens movie, "taking out the trash."
posted by notyou at 6:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


A great article from 2 says ago about how Trump's foundation does illegal things, and Trump isn't even giving to it, and hasn't for 8 years. It appeared at the tail end of the last thread, and it is really a must-read.
posted by cashman at 6:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [43 favorites]


I mean. . .i had heard about her incredible mind - how she stores everything and has access to the minutest
details.


It's a common political technique and is called a Farley File.
posted by Confess, Fletch at 6:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


Frankly I LIKE that Hillary is 48% cyborg
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.
posted by chavenet at 6:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


frankly, i'm surprised that more candidates in general, worldwide, don't get sick more often. all that a/c, and then humidity outdoors, and then recycled frozen cabin air in the airplane, followed by lack of sleep and bad eating, and rinse and repeat.

anyway, better it happen now and be forgotten, rather than a few weeks or days before the election.
posted by bitteroldman at 6:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.

Seriously. Personally, the only issue I saw with what she said is the questionable claim that only half of Trump's supporters are deplorable.
posted by Itaxpica at 6:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


frankly, i'm surprised that more candidates in general, worldwide, don't get sick more often. all that a/c, and then humidity outdoors, and then recycled frozen cabin air in the airplane, followed by lack of sleep and bad eating, and rinse and repeat.

And the random germs of so many people. Seriously, it's like going to Disneyland every day for two years.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Pro tip:

"The first piece of advice was, 'Trust yourself. And know that ultimately regardless of the day-to-day news cycles and the noise that the American people need their president to succeed, regardless of political party.' Which I thought was very generous of [Bush]," Obama said. "The second piece of advice is, 'Always use Purell hand sanitizer.'"
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [68 favorites]


I am disturbed by hearing a newsbite that called Clinton's failing to disclose her pneumonia for 48 hours as "problematic." Like, what the ever-loving fuck?

Ugh, I just want this election over with because I am exhausted and everything about it is ugly.
posted by Kitteh at 6:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Thank god the conservative right finally cares about a woman's health...

Can we close this thread now? cooker girl just won.
posted by OmieWise at 6:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


In good news, Tim Kaine got a giant plane.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


So if Clinton's health ends up disqualifying her, does her VP get promoted to Presidential candidate? Is there a candidate for VP-in-waiting?
posted by acb at 6:53 AM on September 12, 2016


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

This will be a big TV buy in OH, FL, NC and PA.
posted by chris24 at 6:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [98 favorites]


So if Clinton's health ends up disqualifying her

There is no such thing. Stop it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [72 favorites]


Trump releases anti-Trump ad

Welp that's it folks I'm off the charts.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [51 favorites]


In good news, Tim Kaine got a giant plane.

Tim Kaine was asked about the new plane and replied "well I have a good plane joke but it'll go over your head!"
posted by Talez at 6:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [144 favorites]


The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

I think that's cargo cult advertising, based on Clinton's adverts.
posted by Francis at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


In good news, Tim Kaine got a giant plane.

Just imagining how pleased he probably is makes me happy.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

Oh my, that is hilarious!
posted by mumimor at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


MeFites, I'm still back on this thread. I’m on track to read the November 8th thread in July of 2018 or so.

On a more relevant note, "Clinton says something real, gets criticized." We all knew that headline was coming.
posted by Tehhund at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [223 favorites]


MeFites, I'm still back on this thread

You made it out of the 100 Days thread! Congrats. We're all rooting for you.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [52 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

That's not how his base is going to perceive it, since to them, being called a *-ist is many times worse than being *-ist. Not sure how it'll play to any remaining peesuadables out there, but it doesn't seem like an obvious own goal to me.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


That's not how his base is going to perceive it

Yes, but he already has his base. He needs to convince others. Reminding them of the awfulness of Trump and many of his supporters seems a weird way to do it.
posted by chris24 at 7:04 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]






Even if Clinton had invited a media representative into the doctor's office waiting room, there would have been criticism about how she wasn't handling it right. At that point, it would be "she wasn't transparent that she'd been feeling ill before this, why can't she just be open?". There's no winning. Even Jamelle Bouie feels the need to qualify his twitter comments on the subject of Trump v Clinton with comments about her not being transparent enough. Blech.

I deleted a big twitter rant myself but in short I'm just tired at seeing someone I identify with treated so poorly. Like it's always been there and it's 10x as worse for anyone who isn't white (I'm white) but it just feels worse to me right now. It's probably just that every last sniff (both figuratively and literally) of Clinton's is examined from every angle and critical narratives form instantly and many in the media so desperately want to not talk about certain stuff and just .. just .. exhausted.

But I did volunteer for the campaign again last might. So yay. I highly recommend it. It's concrete and better than stewing on twitter (though I do plenty of that too).
posted by R343L at 7:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


Seriously, it's like going to Disneyland every day for two years.

Except most countries' election campaigns only last a few weeks because they don't make their governments have fixed terms.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

Who are these guys trying to go after? This seems to speak to the the hard base. Sometimes I can't figure out if his campaign just understands the psychology of 'ist' people or borderline 'ist' people more then I do so something like this makes sense or if it's them just 'thinking' they understand what works better.

Do you think the campaign would have tested this at all? Beyond anyone that is hardline voting for him anyway?

This just seem so strategically dumb, to the point where it makes me question whether it's a matter of them knowing something I don't or that they are really just this dumb.
posted by Jalliah at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


via Kristen Anderson Lopez (author of "Let it Go" and other earworms):

You know, I was going to re-write the lyrics to "Let it Go" for the election, until I realized that -- other than this:
The hair glows orange on the clown tonight
Not a cluestick to be seen
A campaign of all frustration,
And it looks like I'm the queen.
...and...
Let me voooooote,
Let me voooooote!
Let me check a box on the form!

Let me voooooote,
let me vooooooote!
-- they pretty much already comprise the mallet-swinging smackdown that I would really love to see at the debates.

For reference:
The snow glows white on the mountain tonight
Not a footprint to be seen
A kingdom of isolation,
And it looks like I'm the queen.

The wind is howling like this swirling storm inside
Couldn't keep it in, heaven knows I tried!

Don't let them in, don't let them see
Be the good girl you always have to be
Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know
Well, now they know!

Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door!

I don't care
What they're going to say
Let the storm rage on,
The cold never bothered me anyway!

It's funny how some distance
Makes everything seem small
And the fears that once controlled me
Can't get to me at all!

It's time to see what I can do
To test the limits and break through
No right, no wrong, no rules for me I'm free!

Let it go, let it go
I am one with the wind and sky
Let it go, let it go
You'll never see me cry!

Here I stand
And here I'll stay
Let the storm rage on!

posted by wenestvedt at 7:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


FBI and DoJ are now corrupt according to Trump.

At this point it'd be quicker if Trump would just give a list of groups that aren't corrupt. I have a feeling it would be a list of one: "me."
posted by papercake at 7:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Still waiting on my absentee ballot. Bizarrely, I will be in the US in the city I used to live in before I moved to Canada on Election Day, but having no proof that I resided in Atlanta for a decade, I will not be able to vote while there. Here's hoping it shows up before I leave for my family visit because it isn't going to do me much good if it arrives in the post after I have left home.
posted by Kitteh at 7:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


He has his base but it's all about turnout now. An ad like this could be his team's way of pumping them up. "I'll show her who's deplorable." So much GOP messaging is about weaponizing perceived disrespect, and I think the ad does that.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Who are these guys trying to go after?

I guess you could say playing hard to the base supports the idea he's more interested in solidifying a permanent RWNJ fan base for Trump TV than winning?

Or tone deaf incompetence. Trump's Razor says...
posted by chris24 at 7:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Matt Lauer is like a sentient lump of mashed potatoes given human form by a malign fairy. I have no idea why he would be sent to interview presidential candidates. I frankly don't even understand why he's on the Today Show, so anodyne and yet smarmy and incompetent because he is sentient mashed potatoes posing as an infotainer.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [73 favorites]


Ugh, I just want this election over with because I am exhausted and everything about it is ugly.

If only the ugliness would stop. It's going to be 4 more years of GOP obstructionism, fake scandals, wild conspiracy theories and misogyny. With that special tang of Clinton hatred.
posted by Bee'sWing at 7:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


David Fahrenthold is doing a lot of press today about his (Pulitzer-worthy) Trump Fraud-ation story, so at least the WP isn't willing to let it be buried by the weekend's events.
posted by holgate at 7:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


Clenched jaw and a forced smile, the American way!

Lie back and think of not being England
posted by beerperson at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [43 favorites]


An ad like this could be his team's way of pumping them up.

Fair enough, but if he's still trying to motivate/secure his base with 58 days to go when his base is a minority of the electorate, he's not in great shape.
posted by chris24 at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


MetaFilter: sentient mashed potatoes posing as an infotainer
posted by Gelatin at 7:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


That's not how his base is going to perceive it, since to them, being called a *-ist is many times worse than being *-ist. Not sure how it'll play to any remaining peesuadables out there, but it doesn't seem like an obvious own goal to me.

Last week, Trump started claiming Hillary was the racist/bigot because of her being so intolerant of Trump's supporters. This ad kind of reinforces that stance.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I frankly don't even understand why he's on the Today Show

He used to have good hair
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Jesus, I thought my BernieForever knucklehead Facebook friends had finally given up the dream, but now that Hillary has been replaced by a lookalike and the DNC is holding an emergency meeting to find a suitable replacement they just know their guy will be tapped.

I'm not even making that up, but I am exaggerating the lookalike claims.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


According to my Facebook several people are switching TO HRC because of PneumoniaGate (instead of Stein/not voting), because of her demonstrated ability to soldier on through illness. Then again, my Facebook seems to be some sort of brain trust compared to what most report, so.
posted by zutalors! at 7:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [60 favorites]


WaPo: The American people agree with Clinton: Trump is a bigot. This new poll confirms it.

"The Post poll, which found Clinton leading Trump by five points among likely voters nationwide, also found that 60 percent of Americans believe Trump “is biased against women and minorities,” with 48 percent believing that strongly. According to the crosstabs, college educated whites believe this by 57-41, and college educated white women — a crucial demographic that the campaigns are fighting over — believe it by 61-39.

What’s more, majorities of college educated white men and non-college white women also believe this. Indeed, as James Downie puts it: “At this point, the only group of voters that doesn’t think Trump is biased is white men without a college degree.”
posted by chris24 at 7:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [78 favorites]


Last week, Trump started claiming Hillary was the racist/bigot because of her being so intolerant of Trump's supporters.

I said this late in the last thread, but it boggles the mind that Trump's campaign is attacking Clinton for being politically incorrect.

Still, it must come as a relief to our lazy, incompetent media, as it lets them avoid mentioning how Clinton's critique was fundamentally correct.
posted by Gelatin at 7:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Speaking of Trump's Razor, the two most indispensable Trumpologists I know of -- Josh Marshall and Jacob Weisberg -- discussed the Razor on a recent episode of Trumpcast.

Now I assume all good MeFites are already listening to Trumpcast (and if you're not: get off the island), but the episode is a good, brief (20 min.) introduction to the Razor.

I'm really hoping this concept goes mainstream, I think it's a great way to get people to start cutting through the bs and genuinely looking at how horribly incompetent that guy is.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]




Question I've been wanting to ask for a bit:

Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat? Is there a name for this?
posted by rebent at 7:23 AM on September 12, 2016


Charlie Pierce: The Truth About This Alleged 'Basket of Deplorables'
Hell, we've been grading Republicans on a curve for decades. We graded Reagan on a curve when he burbled about trees and air pollution. We graded him on a curve during Iran Contra on the grounds that he was too dim to know what was going on around him. We graded W on a curve for the whole 2000 campaign when he didn't know Utah from Uzbekistan, but Al Gore knew too much stuff and what fun was he, anyway? We graded Republicans on a curve when they attached themselves to the remnants of American apartheid, when they played footsie with the militias out west and with the heirs to the White Citizens Councils in the South. We graded them on a curve every time they won a campaign behind Karl Rove or Lee Atwater or the late Terry Dolan back in the 1970s. We talked about how they were "reaching out" to disillusioned white voters who'd suffered in the changing economy, as though African-American workers didn't get slugged harder than anyone else by deindustrialization. We pretended not to notice how racial animus was the accelerant for the fire of discontent in the "Reagan Democrats." That was, and is, grading on a moral curve.

We graded Republicans on a intellectual curve when they embraced a fundamentalist splinter of American Protestantism and brought themselves to a pass in which they are the 21st Century Know Nothings. They have followed movement conservatism to the point where they can ignore science and promote creationism and supply side economic foolishness simply because they can sell it to the same audiences that gobble up the red meat that's been marinating since George Wallace ran for president. Because they are graded on a curve, they can still claim to be shocked when the purist product of all of that work hijacks the nomination and gives the entire game away. Of course, Trump has been graded on a curve. If the electorate hadn't graded modern conservatism on an intellectual curve, it would've flunked out of Human College decades ago.

It is timidity now that grades this ridiculous man running this ridiculous campaign on the biggest curve of all—the timidity of a people who have declined the responsibilities of serious citizenship and the abdication of its duty under the Constitution of a putatively free press too timid to call them on it. That is the political correctness that truly is hurting the country and may yet hurt it beyond all repair. There's only one candidate now running however gingerly against that.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [158 favorites]


Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat?

Well you have Grant and Eisenhower.
posted by dismas at 7:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tom Sullivan at Hullabaloo reminds us about HW Bush vomiting on people during his reelection campaign, his son choking on a pretzel, Reagan getting cancer surgery, and numerous other instances of Republicans being unwell in office or while running.

Not that anyone in the HILARY PRETTY MUCH ALREADY DEAD camp will care.
posted by emjaybee at 7:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat? Is there a name for this?

Four Presidents held no elected positions before their presidencies: Major General Zachary Taylor, General (Hiram) Ulysses S. Grant, Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover, and General of the Army Dwight Eisenhower.

There isn't really a term for it.
posted by Etrigan at 7:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Are there other examples in history, especially American history, of non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat? Is there a name for this?

You mean like a C-list movie actor becoming Governor of California, then President, then President again, coasting on personality and PR over substance?

Nah. Too far-fetched.
posted by delfin at 7:26 AM on September 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


non-politicians being elected (or otherwise ascending) to the executive seat?

Eisenhower?
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:27 AM on September 12, 2016


According to my Facebook several people are switching TO HRC because of PneumoniaGate (instead of Stein/not voting), because of her demonstrated ability to soldier on through illness. Then again, my Facebook seems to be some sort of brain trust compared to what most report, so.

Yeah people are weird. One person who has been posting a lot of anti-Hillary stuff including BS 'health' stuff seems to have change their tune now that Hillary is actually sick. It's the same message, wow she really is sick and look what she has been doing. Pneumonia sucks.

Maybe because pneumonia is something that is familiar to a lot of people? They have personal experience with it so it's more real and relatable?

I've been doing my best to avoid media because I just don't want to see this story play out so I don't know how widespread this [articular response is to it but I have caught whiffs of it here and there.

Again people are weird.
posted by Jalliah at 7:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Major General Zachary Taylor, General (Hiram) Ulysses S. Grant, Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover, and General of the Army Dwight Eisenhower

That is ... not a list we want to extend. Even if the fourth didn't do badly so far as I am aware.
posted by Francis at 7:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Given his history of poisoning political opponents I wouldn't be surprised if Putin is behind Clinton's health problems.
posted by Flashman at 7:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Dammit you guys, my files at work have been inaccessible for like four days because a co-worker downloaded a virus (don't get me started) but today, of all days, everything is back to normal and I can go back to my computer-necessary work.

Why couldn't this new thread have happened last week??
posted by cooker girl at 7:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


The Hillary handlers kept the press and public in the dark for some time, stating hot weather etc when in fact it was more than that. Hillary is hammered for being a "trimmer," and her people should start being more forthright. And Hillary should not ever go out in public with dark sunglasses, a sign, perhaps of hiding something, esp. when all those around her are not wearing sun glasses.

The Trump supporters have accused her of concealed illnesses and perhaps now we will get a full medical report on her health. Will we get the same from Trump from a real doctor?
posted by Postroad at 7:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump Doesn't Want Moderators at the Presidential Debates:
"Let Hillary and I sit there and just debate," he said. "I think the system is being rigged so it's going to be a very unfair debate. I can see it happening right now because everybody was saying 'he was soft on Trump,' and now the new person is going to try and be really hard on Trump just to show the establishment what he can do. I think it's very unfair what they are doing. I think we should have a debate with no moderator, just Hillary and I sitting there talking."
posted by kirkaracha at 7:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Flashman, I thought of that too! But I really don't want to to think that could happen.
posted by emjaybee at 7:32 AM on September 12, 2016


I would be fine with Clinton and Trump sitting there talking, provided they had equal time buzzers. She would crush him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


college educated white women — a crucial demographic that the campaigns are fighting over

Is the Trump campaign actually fighting for college educated white women? I know that's typically a swing demographic but I see zero evidence Trump is actually trying to get them (or I should say "us").
posted by lunasol at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough. She's done a ton of good stuff, but the constant attacks put her on the defensive, which she doesn't do well.

She should spin the stumble as "There's a lot of Americans that go to work even though they're not feeling well, because they have to, because our health care system, while filled with great care, isn't accessible to them. If they can't call out sick, the least I could do is soldier on."

And "Am I going to walk back my deplorable comments? Look, there's video of some of his supporters calling for me to be arrested, killed and what have you. Honestly, deplorable was the most diplomatic way of calling them out."

She really needs to do stuff like that and stop apologizing, because she's got little to apologize for.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [159 favorites]


That is ... not a list we want to extend. Even if the fourth didn't do badly so far as I am aware.

Whenever someone expresses the sentiment that “American needs more leaders with STEM backgrounds”, remind them that Hoover was an engineer.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


(By the way, apropos of the "Let It Go" lyrics quoted earlier: The Indianapolis Symphony does an annual holiday concert, and at one of them they had a male vocal group perform that song a capella. It was then I realized it's a coming out song.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Given his history of poisoning political opponents I wouldn't be surprised if Putin is behind Clinton's health problems.

For that matter I won't be surprised when Trump eats a polonium breakfast on the morning after losing the election.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 7:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Welp that's it folks I'm off the charts.

It left out the Vantablack level: I Literally Cannot Even
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 7:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Of course Trump doesn't want a moderator. He hasn't had to take anyone telling him to be quiet since his old man died.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I think we should have a debate with no moderator, just Hillary and I sitting there talking.

I don't know what he pictures in his head when he says "just Hillary and I sitting there talking," but I'll bet it's bone-chilling.
posted by PlusDistance at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


Whenever someone expresses the sentiment that “American needs more leaders with STEM backgrounds”, remind them that Hoover was an engineer.

Herbert Hoover is one of the best examples of the Peter Principle I can think of. He was by all accounts quite a good engineer, and topped his successful career with significant humanitarian work after World War I. His record prior to the Great Crash was admirable; he -- and his free-market philosophy, I might add -- simply proved utterly unable to mitigate the burgeoning Great Depression.
posted by Gelatin at 7:40 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


just Hillary and I sitting there talking

There is a non-zero chance he could break down in a hissy fit about not getting an invite to Chelsea's wedding.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, can someone please take the keyboard away from H.A. Goodman, for his own sake?
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


So, can someone please take the keyboard away from H.A. Goodman, for his own sake?

WOLVERINES!
posted by tonycpsu at 7:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough. She's done a ton of good stuff, but the constant attacks put her on the defensive, which she doesn't do well.

I don't think she's ever been comfortable promoting herself. She'd much rather speak to issues, and leave herself out of it. She's never seemed to be totally at-ease with public speaking, either. She knows it's part of the job and does a great job at it all, but I think she'd rather just sit down and get to work, rather than blow her own horn.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I assume this is the same strain (mycoplasmic pneumonia) that's tearing through the northeast right now. I'm just getting over it, my kid had it a few weeks ago, and my wife may or may not be coming down with it. It's bacterial, so the doc gives you a 5-day supply of azithromycin and sends you on your way, but... I've been flat on my ass for like a week and a half. If you go read about it on professional point-of-care resources, you see dryly-written commentary like "Patient complaints usually exceed objective findings" because it's just a nasty cough, but holy shit, dude, you feel like you're on death's front door. It knocks you the hell down, drains you of any ability to do anything without hacking up a goddamned lung, and it persists forever. Last Monday, I slept for 20 of the 24 hours in a solar cycle. The fact that Hilary has been out campaigning with this suggests that she is, in fact, thirty feet tall with a blue ox who follows her around.
posted by Mayor West at 7:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [155 favorites]


The whole no moderator thing is just another example of him being all bluster and BS. He's a bully who can't handle things if he doesn't have control. It's so weaksauce and I just don't get how so many people can't see through the illusion.

IT'S SO OBVIOUS. ARRGH
posted by Jalliah at 7:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


His record prior to the Great Crash was admirable; he -- and his free-market philosophy, I might add -- simply proved utterly unable to mitigate the burgeoning Great Depression.

Here's a great essay on how "Hoover the activist technocrat, who seemed to want to get the government's fingerprints all over everything, suddenly turn[ed] into the embodiment of laissez-faire — a 'fat Coolidge,' as H.L. Mencken put it — at precisely the moment that the economy collapsed and government intervention was most needed."
posted by Iridic at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


So, 9 minutes after I made that comment above about that WaPo article on the Trump Foundation, @HillaryClinton tweeted
"Trump uses his foundation to pay for things with other people's money. http://wapo.st/2c0q7ki"
So yeah, really, read that article. It's shocking. And thanks to Tonycpsu for originally linking it in the last thread.
posted by cashman at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker: Hillary has canceled a west coast trip after yesterday's events, but is still scheduled for Ellen DeGeneres' show on Wednesday

I'm looking forward to her dancing with Ellen again, but hopefully something more energetic than her last performance* (no diss, she's just trying to mimic dance moves and looks pretty awkward, but I love her happiness in that moment)

* Also, DEAR FSKING GODS - that clip was published by the AP on YouTube on Sep. 8, 2015, OVER A YEAR AGO, and the title? "Hillary Clinton Talks Email, Dances With Ellen" Yes, the email "scandal" is that old (and Hillary quickly says what she should have done, and says she's sorry for her actions. BAM! End of story ... *sigh*)


chavenet: I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.

Why ever admit you said something bad, when you can just pretend you never said it in the first place?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


found that 60 percent of Americans believe Trump “is biased against women and minorities,” with 48 percent believing that strongly.

And 50% of those who believed it strongly citing his bigotry as the basis for their support of Trump, I'll wager. Finally, Bigot-Americans have found their champion. La Luta Continua, bro.
posted by spitbull at 7:46 AM on September 12, 2016


thirty feet tall with a blue ox who follows her around.

I can't even deal with how cute this would be.

Also, is the ox named Tim? Does it make dad jokes?
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


I would be fine with Clinton and Trump sitting there talking, provided they had equal time buzzers. She would crush him.

It should just be a game of chess.
posted by beerperson at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know what bugs me about this?

Pneumonia is contagious.

Hillary knowingly continued a campaign schedule when she knew she was potentially making everyone around her sick, without alerting anyone to the fact she was contagious.

Yeah, I know, so what, no big deal, pneumonia. But I started on autoimmune suppressing drugs this year, and it's made me very conscious of how cavalier people are about spreading disease. A good bout of pneumonia at the wrong time will kill me, so I have to be careful.

I wonder how many people she's met in the past few days? I wonder how many of them are sick now?

This was incredibly inconsiderate, and impressively irresponsible. If you've got pneumonia, I don't care who you are, stay home. If you can't stay home, let everyone you come into contact with know you're sick and contagious, so they can manage their own health as they need to.
posted by MrVisible at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Not sure how it'll play to any remaining persuadables out there

In the context of this election, at this stage, "persuadables" are essentially those in the gap between RV and LV in the polling screen. There's a chance that Clinton's comments will motivate more people who justify their prejudices ("it's not racist to..." etc.) and there's a chance that Trump has given outright bigots an R to support when they would otherwise stay at home, but typically it's been harder for the Dems to get all of their RV support to the polls.
posted by holgate at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016


I think this is the blue ox reference.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't think she's ever been comfortable promoting herself. She'd much rather speak to issues, and leave herself out of it. She's never seemed to be totally at-ease with public speaking, either. She knows it's part of the job and does a great job at it all, but I think she'd rather just sit down and get to work, rather than blow her own horn.

Since paying more attention to her this election cycle, I'd totally agree. She's not a great politician in the sense of easily and constantly tooting her own horn. But she's wicked smart and driven and seems to work well with others away from the cameras and microphones. That's a huge plus in my book.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


cashman: So yeah, really, read that article. It's shocking.

Shocking, or classic Trump? It actually makes me think of this cartoon that oneswellfoop linked in the last thread. Supporters of Hillary's Opponent will say "what a smart move," until that same move turns into the US being beholden to Russia and China, and if somehow gets his way, Mexico for that wall, as they pay for things for the US.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:50 AM on September 12, 2016


It should just be a game of chess.

OMG. Trump would totally throw a hissy and throw the board off the table when he can't even remember what way the pieces move and Hillary has to keep reminding him, 'No Donald, bishop moves diagonal...'

The picture of him doing it is so vivid.
posted by Jalliah at 7:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know what bugs me about this?

Pneumonia is contagious.


Somehow, I doubt that Hillary would be the person to act without thought of her impacts to others. I like to think that she and her campaign discussed how she deal with that. Her opponent, on the other hand ... I think he'd be happy to make other people sick.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


The whole no moderator thing is just another example of him being all bluster and BS.

Complaining in advance about how "rigged" and "unfair" it is is Trump's way not only of working the refs, but also making excuses in advance for him losing.

It's the same with his dangerous implications that the election itself is going to be rigged, but it's all hardly the rhetoric of the kind of winner Trump likes to portray himself as. Somehow, Trump knows he's in for a humiliating loss, and he's working hard to save face.
posted by Gelatin at 7:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


#TrumpDiaper
[Fake][?]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:54 AM on September 12, 2016


Frankly, Donny Trump's mental incompetence from the early-onset dementia is the real health-concern in this election.
posted by mikelieman at 7:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


MrVisible: Pneumonia is contagious.

From WebMD:
Spreading pneumonia to others

If your pneumonia is caused by a virus or bacteria, you may spread the infection to other people while you are contagious. How long you are contagious depends on what is causing the pneumonia and whether you get treatment. You may be contagious for several days to a week.

If you get antibiotics, you usually cannot spread the infection to others after a day of treatment.
Emphasis mine.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:55 AM on September 12, 2016 [61 favorites]


If you get antibiotics, you usually cannot spread the infection to others after a day of treatment.

Sure, although she did have a huge fundraiser the same day that she was diagnosed.

I'm sure she was super careful, and I understand why she forged along.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:56 AM on September 12, 2016


Frankly, Donny Trump's mental incompetence from the early-onset dementia is the real health-concern in this election.

Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


This was incredibly inconsiderate, and impressively irresponsible. If you've got pneumonia, I don't care who you are, stay home

That works, say, if you have sick-days and health insurance. I think the millions who don't have those resources see Hillary's commitment to her job as relatable and humanizing.
posted by mikelieman at 7:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


Complaining in advance about how "rigged" and "unfair" it is is Trump's way not only of working the refs, but also making excuses in advance for him losing.

Bingo. Lester Holt could massage Trump's temples the whole debate and Trump people would still be yelling about how things were biased against Trump. It's a way of focusing on the refs/umps, as Gelatin says. I hope Holt doesn't care and is unfazed.
posted by cashman at 7:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, I've been thinking about Seth Meyers cold reading Trump (previously posted by ChurchHatesTucker), and I first suggested that his words get re-read in a synthetic "robot" voice. Then I thought, it would be more fun to hear his lines read by Vincent Adultman.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.

There's a Trump family history of it, too. It killed his father Fred.

Considering his inconsistent statements, and episodes of word-salad, I'm not just making a joke. It's a real concern.
posted by mikelieman at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


NoxAeternum: "So, can someone please take the keyboard away from H.A. Goodman, for his own sake?"

Is he really dumb enough that he thinks that the democratic party can just swap out candidates after the nomination?
posted by octothorpe at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016


FBI and DoJ are now corrupt according to Trump.

The purges begin in January.
posted by klanawa at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know what bugs me about this?

Pneumonia is contagious.


I admit that I'm only projecting from my own recent bout of it, but if she does indeed have walking pneumonia (colloquial term for bacterial mycoplasmic pneumonia), then she was sick with it for a long time before it turned into pneumonia. During that time, you get a low-grade fever, chills, aches, and a general sense of malaise. Normal people go sleep for a few days and hope it goes away. The folks who don't get any paid sick leave, who she's desperately trying to help, go to their jobs and soldier on. Hilary keeps right on campaigning, because it's just a cold, and life goes on, and there's an election in 56 days, y'know?

You don't get the cough until the infection gets into your lungs, 3-21 days later. So when she started coughing (and became actively contagious), she stopped going to public events. I'm not sure how much more we can ask of someone.
posted by Mayor West at 7:59 AM on September 12, 2016 [65 favorites]


Lester Holt is a much more professional journalist than someone like Lauer, I feel pretty good about his performance.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:59 AM on September 12, 2016


Pushing the angle about Clinton's health is so weird to me, mostly because I can't imagine a single thing that could come out about her health that would change my vote. She could have fucking died yesterday and I'd still vote for her corpse over Trump. If you took an above ground pool and taped signs saying "Yes" and "No" to opposite ends and let the direction her floating, lifeless body drifted in indicate answers, I'd still trust that decision-making process more than Trump.

She's a fine candidate and I hope (and have little if any reason not to believe) she's well. But there's not a goddamned thing that could come out on that front that would make me choose Trump instead.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [152 favorites]


Can we not go with HILARY CLINTON PURPOSEFULLY INFECTS EAST COAST WITH PNEUMONIA as a serious line of discussion? I assume she washed her hands frequently, got on antibiotics as soon as possible and tried not to cough on anyone.

And had she quarantined herself, then we'd be wringing our hands at the "bad optics" of it.

She literally can't win the narrative, because whenever a woman gets close to winning, the narrative changes and the goalposts move. I expect that from the media, but we could maybe not do that here.

She seems like a conscientious person with a long record of giving a flip about her fellow human beings. To fret that she callously and irresponsibly infected people is ludicrous.
posted by emjaybee at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [140 favorites]


Seconding all of the "who cares" re Clinton's health and adding a dollop of "I'd obviously vote for Tim Kaine over Trump so..."
posted by prefpara at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


guys what if hillary IS the zika virus
posted by beerperson at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [46 favorites]


Is he really dumb enough that he thinks that the democratic party can just swap out candidates after the nomination?

You will never go broke underestimating HA Goodman.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


A February Public Policy Polling survey found “Trump’s support in South Carolina is built on a base of voters among whom religious and racial intolerance pervades.” What the poll found about those South Carolina supporters’ beliefs was truly shocking:

• Eighty percent of likely Trump primary voters supported Trump’s proposed ban on Muslims.

• Sixty-two percent supported creating a national database of Muslims and 40 percent supported shutting down mosques in the United States.

• Thirty-eight percent wished the South had won the Civil War.

• Thirty-three percent thought the practice of Islam should be illegal in this country.

• Thirty-two percent supported the policy of Japanese internment during World War II.

• Thirty-one percent would support a ban on homosexuals entering the country.

On Saturday, Clinton issued a statement pointing out that “I regret saying ‘half’ — that was wrong.” Place the percentage where you will — or don’t — but the fact is indisputable.

I understand that people recoil at the notion that they are part of a pejorative basket. I understand the reflexive resistance to having your negative beliefs disrobed and your sense of self dressed down.

I understand your outrage, but I’m unmoved by it. If the basket fits …
About the ‘Basket of Deplorables’
posted by y2karl at 8:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [58 favorites]




If two of the following core mental functions seem impaired then it is time to seek medical help: Memory, communication and language, ability to focus and pay attention, reasoning and judgment, visual perception.

Trump’s interview with the Washington Post editorial board in March about using a tactical nuclear weapon against ISIS demonstrates 4 of them.
TRUMP: I don’t want to use, I don’t want to start the process of nuclear. Remember the one thing that everybody has said, I’m a counterpuncher. Rubio hit me. Bush hit me. When I said low energy, he’s a low-energy individual, he hit me first. I spent, by the way, he spent 18 million dollars’ worth of negative ads on me. That’s putting [MUFFLED]…

RYAN: This is about ISIS. You would not use a tactical nuclear weapon against ISIS?

TRUMP: I’ll tell you one thing, this is a very good-looking group of people here. Could I just go around so I know who the hell I’m talking to?

posted by mikelieman at 8:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


HA Goodman is stupid and malign. Such common bedfellows.
posted by holborne at 8:03 AM on September 12, 2016


If anything, I don't think Secretary Clinton's 'deplorable' comments go far enough. Supporting Trump is deplorable, full stop. Not all of his followers are literal fascist, White-nationalist genocidal monsters, but it's probably in the teens, which is terrifying.

Right now the person I wish the Democrats had nominated was the Hillary Clinton of the right-wing fever swamps: a crusading radical leftist lesbian with a ruthless streak a mile wide willing to do anything to crawl her way to the top so she can remake America as a European style social-democracy. Quelle horreur!
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:04 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


This was incredibly inconsiderate, and impressively irresponsible. If you've got pneumonia, I don't care who you are, stay home

Yes, she's fighting to stop fascism in America in the home stretch of a campaign, but her fighting through an illness for less than 48 hours when her staff was surely aware is truly the scandal.
posted by chris24 at 8:07 AM on September 12, 2016 [55 favorites]


> How Many Giant Portraits of Donald Trump Does Donald Trump Own?

If he actually gets elected he'll forget about most of the stuff he campaigned about and concentrate on replacing the Washington monument and Lincoln memorial with giant statues of himself. Here's a preliminary artist's rendering.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Apparently Clinton is on antibiotics. So her pneumonia is bacterial. I am not a doctor, but the people who wrote this are, and they say: bacterial pneumonia is far less contagious than cold or flu. Is she putting her close aids at risk of infection? Yes, but they're also all a bit younger than her. She's probably not putting random people she comes across at a high risk of infection, especially if she keeps her hands clean and doesn't cough right into their mouths.
posted by dis_integration at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


If he actually gets elected he'll forget about most of the stuff he campaigned about and concentrate on replacing the Washington monument and Lincoln memorial with giant statues of himself.

This was more what I pictured
posted by Mayor West at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


There are lots of rw whack jobs tweeting about how there is a Clinton body double. I don't have time to directly link them all so I am linking to a Metro.UK article - not sure if that is a rag, but the tweets are real, I've seen 'em.
Conspiracy theorists think Hillary Clinton has been replaced with a body double after her collapse.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the second paragraph of the NYT column y2karl just cited, a perfect example of how the so-called "liberal media" grades Trump and the Republican Party in general on a curve:
Candidates do themselves a tremendous disservice when they attack voters rather than campaigns. Whatever advantage is procured through the rallying of one’s own base is outweighed by what will be read as divisiveness and disdain.
Hogwash. Trump attacks Democratic constituencies all the time. Sarah Palin famously referred to rural America, where a minority of the American populace resides, as "real America." Republicans have sniffed about "San Francisco values" and "New York liberals" for time out of mind. Republicans attack liberals, givernment workers, union members, teachers, the press, the poor, gays, women -- fellow Americans all, many voters among them -- habitually.

But when Clinton can be spun as doing so, the New York Times op-ed page raises its voice in protest. Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 8:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [66 favorites]


If you think about it, a presidential candidate traveling all over the country would be a perfect disease vector. Hillary of course wouldn't weaponize this, but I bet Trump went down to Mexico just to give Peña Nieto smallpox or something.
posted by rmless at 8:12 AM on September 12, 2016


You don't get the cough until the infection gets into your lungs, 3-21 days later. So when she started coughing (and became actively contagious), she stopped going to public events. I'm not sure how much more we can ask of someone.

Letting people know you're sick so that those of us who are immunocompromised can avoid you would be good.
posted by MrVisible at 8:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Conspiracy theorists think Hillary Clinton has been replaced with a body double after her collapse.

This election cycle is so absurd that I'm not even surprised that this guy is basically a mainstream voice now.
posted by dis_integration at 8:14 AM on September 12, 2016


OFFICIAL REQUEST: Please stop maligning dementia sufferers by comparing them to Trump. It is kind of a huge bummer. Diaper jokes are a different story imho.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you're worried about catching something from Hillary Clinton at a rope line at one of her campaign events you should probably be much more worried about the thousands of other people around you at the event who you'd never be able to know the health status of.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [103 favorites]


her fighting through an illness for less than 48 hours when her staff was surely aware is truly the scandal.

It's not a scandal, it's just a bit irresponsible. Just as one can criticize her policy positions while still supporting her candidacy (even wholeheartedly!), one can also criticize some of her campaign decisions.
posted by jedicus at 8:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


If he actually gets elected he'll forget about most of the stuff he campaigned about and concentrate on replacing the Washington monument and Lincoln memorial with giant statues of himself.

Kind of like this?
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:15 AM on September 12, 2016


But when Clinton can be spun as doing so, the New York Times op-ed page raises its voice in protest. Feh.

What do you expect from the paper whose public editor who thought this was a sensible response to criticism about false equivalency.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


There are lots of rw whack jobs tweeting about how there is a Clinton body double

I made a joke about them swapping out Trump with someone in a toupee in a previous thread. I think it speaks volumes to how satire proof this election has become that it is now an actual conspiracy theory on the other side.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:17 AM on September 12, 2016


If you think about it, a presidential candidate traveling all over the country would be a perfect disease vector.

if this election eventually turns into a zombie outbreak 2016 will finally make sense
posted by beerperson at 8:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


The odds have shifted somewhat on the betting markets. Not surprisingly, money is going onto Trump. A little more surprising is that bets are being placed on Biden, Kaine and Sanders to win the presidency - not sure how that is possible at this stage in candidate procedures.

Biden, Kaine and Sanders could form an Emerson, Lake and Palmer tribute band if things don't work out, perhaps. I don't know.
posted by Wordshore at 8:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Letting people know you're sick so that those of us who are immunocompromised can avoid you would be good.

I say this gently, as somebody whose husband was significantly immunocompromised due to chemotherapy for an extended period, and as somebody who was personally immunocompromised for a while pretty recently -- we were specifically and repeatedly told not to go to large indoor gatherings of people while those conditions were in effect.

Both a rope line for a major candidate and a campaign event of any size would definitely have fallen into that category, particularly for my husband, who was told not to go anywhere where there were more than 10 people or so within a confined space.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:19 AM on September 12, 2016 [71 favorites]


All day yesterday during the 9/11 remembrances, I found myself thinking about Sarah Vowell's observation that Republicans love to exploit the memory of 9/11 even as they have little but contempt for the places that actually suffered attacks. "They wrap themselves in our attack and then they leave and talk about what snobs we are. If the East Coast Is American enough For Al-Qaeda, It should be American enough for them."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [53 favorites]


There are lots of rw whack jobs tweeting about how there is a Clinton body double.

I love a nutter conspiracy theory as much as anyone, and will do my best to spread them around irresponsibly in aid of "humour", but the skinny legs thing? Guys, adjust the V-hold on your teevee.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:20 AM on September 12, 2016


If you're worried about catching something from Hillary Clinton at a rope line at one of her campaign events you should probably be much more worried about the thousands of other people around you at the event who you'd never be able to know the health status of.

If I had pneumonia, and I was going to spend days in contact with thousands of people, most of whom wanted to see me personally, I would divulge my health status in order to make sure no-one vulnerable to the disease contracted it.

I don't think that's a very controversial moral standard.
posted by MrVisible at 8:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mom is on Facebook for half of the day. She doesn't curate like I do.

She read this morning that not only is it a body double but that the DNC is frantically trying to find someone to replace her. I'm guessing because it's only a matter of time before she keels over completely or something.

Mom doesn't believe this of course she just let me know it was out there.
posted by Jalliah at 8:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.

There's a Trump family history of it, too. It killed his father Fred.

Considering his inconsistent statements, and episodes of word-salad, I'm not just making a joke. It's a real concern.


I've been saying this since March.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:21 AM on September 12, 2016


I don't think that's a very controversial moral standard.

You might not think so, but you're wrong.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


we were specifically and repeatedly told not to go to large indoor gatherings of people while those conditions were in effect.

Victim blaming aside, it's also quite possible that some people on her staff (including staff who do not normally interact with crowds) may be immunocompromised. Or be elderly, or have very young children, etc.
posted by jedicus at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


(slightly off-topic but still political, madamjujujive's link led me to this: Robert Mugabe unveils statue of himself and it ‘looks like a Simpsons character’)
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]




it's also quite possible that some people on her staff (including staff who do not normally interact with crowds) may be immunocompromised. Or be elderly, or have very young children, etc.

And you knew that her health status was withheld from them. . . how?
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


She found out she had pneumonia on Friday, we don't know what time, we don't know how big of a window she had for cancelling the event she had that day (I believe it was that evening). Did she have any other campaign events since Friday that would justify the rush to condemn her? Because prior to Friday, she didn't know it was pneumonia, and while it would be great if she were omniscient and had the power to control time and space so that she could go back in time and rectify the situation, obviously she cannot, and to continue acting like she did this deliberately or that she was actually so careless as to knowingly go out to infect people is kinda weird.
posted by palomar at 8:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


I was going to spend days in contact with thousands of people, most of whom wanted to see me personally

She's not in contact with thousands. She's in the same block or building. If LeBron James is sick at a game, does he put at risk 16,000 in the arena? She put at risk, for 24 hours, her immediate staff who were undoubtedly aware.
posted by chris24 at 8:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh FFS. Here we go again, focusing on the banal when there is literally a misogynistic, racist, fascist person running for President of the United States of America.

I mean, really. Really? REALLY?!

Yes. It's banal. Deal with it.
posted by cooker girl at 8:26 AM on September 12, 2016 [109 favorites]


Trump Is Pat Buchanan With Better Timing:
If you’re looking for the roots of Trump’s political message, you can find yourself remembering the story of the blind men who describe what an elephant is like by touching different parts of the beast’s body (“It’s a rope,” “a tree branch,” “a wall.”). There’s a dose of Ross Perot, the billionaire businessman who declared himself free from the taint of elective politics. There’s the anti-elitist scorn of George Wallace, not to mention several spoonfuls of Wallace’s racial and ethnic resentment. There’s the rallying of the forgotten captured by Louisiana’s Huey Long back in the 1930s.

But to a remarkable extent, just about all of the themes of Trump’s campaign can be found in Buchanan’s insurgent primary run a quarter-century ago: the grievances, legitimate and otherwise; the dark portrait of a nation whose culture and sovereignty are threatened from without and within; the sense that the elites of both parties have turned their backs on hard-working loyal, traditional Americans. The limits of that campaign—and the success of Trump’s, in seizing the nomination of a major political party—are a measure of just how much our politics have changed in the past 25 years.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


All day yesterday during the 9/11 remembrances, I found myself thinking about Sarah Vowell's observation that Republicans love to exploit the memory of 9/11 even as they have little but contempt for the places that actually suffered attacks. "They wrap themselves in our attack and then they leave and talk about what snobs we are. If the East Coast Is American enough For Al-Qaeda, It should be American enough for them."

Trump himself made that point in the 14 January debate.

It will always be the high point of his campaign. Even winning the election would not surpass that moment in the debate.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


What do you expect from the paper whose public editor who thought this was a sensible response to criticism about false equivalency.

I'd expect that ignoring bad-faith attacks from political partisans would substantially improve the Times' coverage, along with most of the other media, and vastly to the benefit of liberals and Democrats, if I thought for a second they actually meant to do so.
posted by Gelatin at 8:27 AM on September 12, 2016


If I had pneumonia, and I was going to spend days in contact with thousands of people, most of whom wanted to see me personally, I would divulge my health status in order to make sure no-one vulnerable to the disease contracted it.

I don't think that's a very controversial moral standard.


It doesn't have to be controversial in order to be kind of ignorant about the nature of what pneumonia is and how communicable it is or is not, depending on which of its many underlying causes are in play and at what stage of treatment things are.

There's a lot of illnesses that are less communicable in their overt symptom phase and which have their communicability halted by meds.
posted by phearlez at 8:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Nope it's a woman asking for power so we are all entitled to condemn her moral integrity if she makes a decision we don't like
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [61 favorites]


OFFICIAL REQUEST: Please stop maligning dementia sufferers by comparing them to Trump. It is kind of a huge bummer. Diaper jokes are a different story imho.

I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency, particularly one who is so cagey about his medical records.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I should say “a similar point”. Trump’s was overlapping but not identical.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016


All day yesterday during the 9/11 remembrances, I found myself thinking about Sarah Vowell's observation that Republicans love to exploit the memory of 9/11 even as they have little but contempt for the places that actually suffered attacks.

You have to admit, it does also tend to derail the train of thought that the incompetence of W's administration was a major factor in the attack's success.
posted by Gelatin at 8:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


On second thought I always felt like the nickname "Killary" was much more of a compliment than an insult. Perhaps now I shall call her Clinton, the Plague Bringer, Third Horseman of the Apocalypse, Slayer of Hairpieces.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Clinton 2016: Contaminating your precious bodily fluids.
posted by Hypatia at 8:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Call me crazy, but as a dude living with HIV, my "oh my god political inaction is spreading disease" bar is a bit higher than somebody going out in public when they might spread germs.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [85 favorites]


If Trump gets all up in her personal space during a debate she should cough at him.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


DENY HER YOUR ESSENCE
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I think what yall are interpreting as dementia might really just be a blustering old asshole who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and blathers desperately when he's caught in one of his innumerable contradictions
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


This all continues to be mind-numbingly WTF, that people whose candidate sees no problem with nuclear weapons proliferation, and has actually proposed that Saudi Arabia have nuclear weapons and that countries where within living memory one colonized the other could both get nuclear weapons at the same time, are pretending to be concerned that contagion of Clinton's gross liberal ladygerms could pose a danger to Americans.

Even if for some reason you actually think you've now seen evidence that a Clinton administration would be an iniquitous hive of reckless disregard for the use of hand sanitizer, second-hand nuclear war is slightly more hazardous to a hell of alot more peoples' health. Much less the U.S. getting attacked with weapons that boomerang back to us because I'm-a-genius-when-it-comes-to-nukes Trump is acting like Wile E. Coyote.
posted by XMLicious at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency

This is literally what 90% of the comments in this thread are complaining about? Desk chair doctoring is dumb no matter who the subject is but its especially dumb when its such a painful neverending horrible diagnosis.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm still bemused by the fact that Clinton felt the need to "walk back" her "deplorables" comment while Trump feels no need ever to walk back off anything he says.

It's because we all know the game we're playing, even if nobody will admit it. Democrats are supposed to be good people. Republicans are allowed, even expected, to be monsters. Trump can say whatever he wants, because his party wants a bully, their bully. Clinton can't, because her party expects an ethical, decent person, and that's something the Republicans can use against the Democrats, even when a Democrat speaks the truth, if the truth seems unkind.

I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency, particularly one who is so cagey about his medical records.


It is unreasonable to guess at someone's specific health issues without qualifications or the opportunity to examine the person. That's precisely what Republicans are doing with Clinton, and it is the technique preferred by bullies, and the sort of thing ethical, decent people don't do.
posted by maxsparber at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


So, it appears Donald is functioning well enough to tweet this morning, but how was he yesterday?
Trump was also in attendance at the memorial ceremony and left the service before it ended. Asked after the event about Clinton’s health incident, the Associated Press reports Trump said, “I don’t know anything about it.”
But no one bothered to ask (or at least report on) why he also left early. Do we have any video of him after the ceremony? Maybe he's already dead, but we've been too focused on Hillary to notice!

We're the real monsters in this situation.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Perhaps now I shall call her Clinton, the Plague Bringer, Third Horseman of the Apocalypse, Slayer of Hairpieces.

Mother of Chelsea, First of Her Name, No Living Man Is She, etc.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


I was hoping you'd jump in Mike. I bet you even take MASS TRANSIT sometimes.

(source: I have ridden on a train with Mike multiple times. He didn't get pneumonia.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Going back to some earlier comments about Clinton doing it wrong, i.e. not selling herself enough, maybe a throwback link to Ezra Klein's piece on how she's actually a great politician, she just does it in ways that aren't typically male.

It’s time to admit Hillary Clinton is an extraordinarily talented politician

"Another way to look at the primary is that Clinton employed a less masculine strategy to win. She won the Democratic primary by spending years slowly, assiduously, building relationships with the entire Democratic Party. She relied on a more traditionally female approach to leadership: creating coalitions, finding common ground, and winning over allies."

She's only lost once in her life, to the best politician of our generation. And she tied him in the popular vote. And she's currently running 4 points ahead of where Obama was at this time in 2012.
posted by chris24 at 8:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [76 favorites]


Trump would be unique in that he would ascend to the Presidency without any record of service in the government, either as a civilian or military. He has never been trusted with the public purse or required to work within the constraints of a system of limited government.

He is the CEO of a privately held company where he is the majority shareholder. This is experience of leadership couldn't be more different than the Presidency. His experience of leadership is as a total autocrat with zero accountability. The only limits on his powers are his bankroll and his own moral compass.
posted by humanfont at 8:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]




That's a pretty mean and unfunny cartoon about Hillary and her health from The New Yorker just gone up on social media (I don't feel like linking to it).
posted by Wordshore at 8:38 AM on September 12, 2016


While on the day and subject of 9/11, anyone recall On 9/11, Trump Boasted About Having Tallest Building in Lower Manhattan
posted by Postroad at 8:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's only lost once in her life

Out of four, only two of which can honestly be said to be competitive. Let's not get too enraptured here.
posted by Etrigan at 8:42 AM on September 12, 2016


Y'know, now that you mention it, his behavior really does mimic my mother's behavior as she was starting her descent into full-blown dementia. Scary.

There's a Trump family history of it, too. It killed his father Fred.

Considering his inconsistent statements, and episodes of word-salad, I'm not just making a joke. It's a real concern.


This came up in the last thread, too, and Quaqkapi did a nice job pointing out some facts. The fact that Trump's father had dementia is no indication that Trump is going to suffer from it - familial cases only make up 3-5% of all cases, and if you have the familial form, it is far more likely that you will be a young onset (under age 65) case than not.

Like the armchair diagnoses of Clinton, this is just a lot of baseless speculation that really doesn't serve a lot of purpose. Trump's inconsistency and word-salad can be reflective of a lot of things, and not all of them are medical in nature.
posted by nubs at 8:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


OFFICIAL REQUEST: Please stop maligning dementia sufferers by comparing them to Trump. It is kind of a huge bummer. Diaper jokes are a different story imho.


So can I mock dementia sufferers insofar as they are incontinent? Is that not a bummer at all, or a minor bummer, or a huge bummer?
posted by thelonius at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump thinks of everything in terms of real estate. Seriously, go back and read some of his anecdotes about the UN building, or Caterpillar tractors, or the wall. It would be more amusing if he weren’t interviewing for Leader of the Free World.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016


WTF New Yorker?
posted by chris24 at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


On 9/11, Trump Boasted About Having Tallest Building in Lower Manhattan

except 40 Wall Street isn't taller than the Empire State Building* so he made a self-serving tone-deaf comment that was also a lie. It's really pretty epic.

*And, I think, a couple other NY skyscrapers, I can't be bothered to look it up
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Me, today:

Gets in car, turns it on, radio comes on set to NPR.

Cokie Roberts: "....this incredibly damaging video blahblahblah It has them [Democrats] very nervously beginning to whisper about having her stepping aside and finding another candidate."

Flips radio off, finds some Tribulation to listen to.

/scene
posted by Existential Dread at 8:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


tiva - Lower Manhattan, i.e. Financial District.
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is that not a bummer at all, or a minor bummer, or a huge bummer?

a dirty bum-mer, I think?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Out of four, only two of which can honestly be said to be competitive. Let's not get too enraptured here.

Yes. Wouldn't want to get too enraptured with someone who merely has been Secretary of State, a US Senator, very nearly won the last Democratic nomination for president, won this one, and will likely be our next president. Certainly many have accomplished as much, if not more!
posted by maxsparber at 8:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [36 favorites]


Me, most days:

Gets in car, turns it on, radio comes on set to NPR.

Cokie Roberts

Flips radio off

/scene
posted by Gelatin at 8:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


tiva - Lower Manhattan

well, that seems dumb to me but I never understood why NYC had two downtowns* anyway

*I KNOW, DOWNTOWN MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS THERE
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Downtown is the same thing as lower Manhattan.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Welp that's it folks I'm off the charts.

It left out the Vantablack level: I Literally Cannot Even


Danger level: Squant.
posted by mazola at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think that it isn't at all unreasonable to question the capacity of a person seeing the Presidency, particularly one who is so cagey about his medical records.

It is unreasonable to guess at someone's specific health issues without qualifications or the opportunity to examine the person. That's precisely what Republicans are doing with Clinton, and it is the technique preferred by bullies, and the sort of thing ethical, decent people don't do.


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician? That just doesn't make any sense.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think it's tacky to assume Trump isn't just an asshole
posted by beerperson at 8:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Also, on the matter of health for a president... we understand she wouldn't have to do any gladiator-style arena fighting, right? There are no matters of state that would be settled by combat. There are no important summits she'd have to hike to atop Kilimanjaro. She doesn't have to run a Tough Mudder upon inauguration or anything.

FDR was a pretty fine president for more than a decade while suffering from debilitating polio.

Even if the weirdest conspiracy theories about Clinton's health turned out to be true, there's little evidence it would affect her ability to be president.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


My preemptive footnote was apparently not loud enough.

This is still a less stupid argument than the Hillary health thing though so fine whatever
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician?

When that happens, we can discuss it.
posted by maxsparber at 8:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


So, it appears Donald is functioning well enough to tweet this morning, but how was he yesterday?

I flipped past The View on the teevee earlier to see Joy Behar say (in response to one of the other hosts whose name I don't know saying she just has a feeling that there's something wrong with Clinton's health beyond pneumonia) "Well gee, if we're talking about what we don't know, maybe the other candidate [she evidently refuses to say Trump's name?] arranged his trip to Mexico as a cover for desperately getting illegal stem cell treatments for his secret medical condition."
posted by XMLicious at 8:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


so much of the commentary on HRC's "toxic privacy" whatever is just people trying really hard not to say outright, "Look, Americans are just really, really stupid, and really, really paranoid, and how does Hillary not know that they will come up with half-cocked theories unless you spell everything out for them? Why does she insist upon treating them like reasonable adults?!?"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


(I gave up on Cokie Robers during the time when she was NPR's ostensibly liberal counterpoint to Kevin Phillips, but after Phillips published a books or two critical of George W. Bush, they simply dropped him and kept Roberts, apparently without seeing a need for a balancing conservative voice.)
posted by Gelatin at 8:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician?

Have you considered that your candidate may, in fact, be a fish?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [114 favorites]


I flipped past The View on the teevee earlier to see Joy Behar say (in response to one of the other hosts whose name I don't know

I'm going to guess it was Trump supporter Candace Cameron-Bure.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


So, let's say a candidate is constantly gasping for air, seems incapable of walking without assistance, or is unable to complete sentences without external prompting. You're saying it's unreasonable to speculate that such issues may be medical in nature unless I'm their personal physician?

When that happens, we can discuss it.


So, there is some threshold that you've decided is sufficient to merit discussion, then?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:55 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Who knew that what the world feared most was not nuclear war, but rather the movie Dave coming true.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


There are no important summits she'd have to hike to atop Kilimanjaro.

Ah, I think the conservatives' concern about Hillary's health is based in a simple misunderstanding of what an 'economic summit' entails. Someone please explain this to them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


(I gave up on Cokie Robers during the time when she was NPR's ostensibly liberal counterpoint to Kevin Phillips, but after Phillips published a books or two critical of George W. Bush, they simply dropped him and kept Roberts, apparently without seeing a need for a balancing conservative voice.)

Well, today they "balanced" Cokie Roberts with conservative Mollie Hemingway from The Federalist.

To paraphrase the Simpsons, NPR became a hardcore Fox clone so gradually I didn't even notice!
posted by Existential Dread at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I think it's tacky to assume Trump isn't just an asshole

He's always been an asshole. But I encourage you to, seriously, watch the interviews he gave back when he was the Reform Party candidate, and look at him now.

He sounds like a completely different person.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


So, there is some threshold that you've decided is sufficient to merit discussion, then?

Yes. Actual stuff, and not bullshit examples somebody made up. And not idle speculation by a bunch of armchair Houses who think a chronic liar who has been so privileged his entire life that he no longer must complete sentences must, of course, be suffering a debilitating illness that absolutely must be senile dementia.
posted by maxsparber at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ta-Nehisi Coates: How Breitbart Conquered the Media
For much of this campaign journalists have attacked Hillary Clinton for being evasive and avoiding hard questioning from their ranks. And then the second Clinton is forthright and says something revealing, she is attacked—not for the substance of what she’s said—but simply for having said it. This hypocrisy carries a chilling implicit message: Lie to me. Lie to the country. Lie to everyone. This weekend was not just another misanalysis, it was a shocking betrayal of the journalistic mission which should urge the revelation of truth as opposed to the propagation of hot takes, Washington jargon, and politics-speak.

The shame reflects an ugly and lethal trend in this country’s history—an ever-present impulse to ignore and minimize racism, an aversion to calling it by its name. For nearly a century and a half, this country deluded itself into thinking that its greatest calamity, the Civil War, had nothing to do with one of its greatest sins, enslavement. It deluded itself in this manner despite available evidence to the contrary. Lynchings, pogroms, and plunder proceeded from this fiction. Writers, journalists, and educators embroidered a national lie, and thus a safe space for the violent tempers of those who needed to be white was preserved.

The safe space for the act of being white endures today. This weekend, the media, an ostensibly great American institution, saw it challenged and—not for the first time—organized to preserve it. For speaking a truth, backed up by data, Clinton was accused of promoting bigotry. No. The true crime was endangering white consciousness. So it was when the president asserted that it was stupid to arrest a man for breaking into his own home. So it was when the president said that if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin. And so it is when reformers suggest police not stop citizens on so flimsy a pretext as furtive movements. The need to be white is a sensitive matter—one which our institutions are inexorably and mindlessly bound to protect.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [94 favorites]


WTF New Yorker?

Quite. If they're going to lower themselves to a similar level to Trump mocking a disabled reporter, then I hope they go bankrupt. (And I often love their cartoons)
posted by Wordshore at 8:59 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


she wouldn't have to do any gladiator-style arena fighting, right? There are no matters of state that would be settled by combat. There are no important summits she'd have to hike to atop Kilimanjaro. She doesn't have to run a Tough Mudder upon inauguration or anything.
On second thought, maybe this will become a thing someday. And that's how we end up with President Camacho.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Quite. If they're going to lower themselves to a similar level to Trump mocking a disabled reporter, then I hope they go bankrupt. (And I often love their cartoons)

i mean that dude used to write a comic called Wacky Fun Whitey so like, what does one honestly expect.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:01 AM on September 12, 2016


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected:
Bevin believes that America’s freedom has been “purchased at an extraordinary price,” citing the lives of a half million Americans who have died in uniform. “America is worth fighting for. America is worth fighting for, ideologically.”

He encouraged the audience to fight in every possibly way so that they aren’t forced “to do it physically.” However, he argues that it may come to the shedding of blood.

“I will tell you this: I do think it would be possible, but at what price?” he said, after being asked if he thought America would survive Clinton. “At what price? The roots of the tree of liberty are watered by what? The blood, of who? The tyrants to be sure, but who else? The patriots.”

He continued wondering whose blood will be shed in this possible physical confrontation. “It may be that of those in this room. It might be that of our children and grandchildren. I have nine children. It breaks my heart to think that it might be their blood that is needed to redeem something, to reclaim something, that we through our apathy and our indifference have given away.”
posted by palindromic at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


I felt like taking a minute or two for immigration, so I went over to DJ Trump.com and read up on the plan for making Mexico fund that silly wall. Incredible! Quote:
    It's an easy decision for Mexico: make a one-time payment of $5-10 billion to ensure that $24 billion continues to flow into their country year after year. There are several ways to compel Mexico to pay for the wall including the following:
    • On day 1 promulgate a "proposed rule" (regulation) amending 31 CFR 130.121 to redefine applicable financial institutions to include money transfer companies like Western Union, and redefine "account" to include wire transfers. Also include in the proposed rule a requirement that no alien may wire money outside of the United States unless the alien first provides a document establishing his lawful presence in the United States.
    • On day 2 Mexico will immediately protest. They receive approximately $24 billion a year in remittances from Mexican nationals working in the United States. The majority of that amount comes from illegal aliens. It serves as de facto welfare for poor families in Mexico. There is no significant social safety net provided by the state in Mexico.
    • On day 3 tell Mexico that if the Mexican government will contribute the funds needed to the United States to pay for the wall, the Trump Administration will not promulgate the final rule, and the regulation will not go into effect.
So to sum up, assuming it is legally and practically feasible (big assumption here...there are lots of ways to send money home!) the plan is to threaten the Mexican government. Threaten them how? With the prospect of lots of poor people (elderly, mothers with young children) going hungry as their illegal provider can't wire money home. Even if that were somehow not one of the cruelest, most heartless things I've ever heard of...rage moment...urrgh....

I was going to say that Trump is implying something pretty incredible: if the Mexican government caves in to this threat then illegal aliens will be allowed to stay here and send home money indefinitely, right? Or is he planning to get the ransom money and then deport the illegals? What am I missing here?
posted by TreeRooster at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


> second-hand nuclear war is slightly more hazardous to a hell of alot more peoples' health

I suspect that a non-insignificant percentage of the population would rather roll the dice on a chance of dying in a nuclear war than have a woman as President.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is "“People wanted her to act more like Bernie, but I don’t think they meant the one from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s.’ ”
posted by Perplexity at 9:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected:

So now leading Republicans are actively encouraging civil war if Clinton wins. Fuck you Republicans, you bunch of racist fascist traitors.
posted by chris24 at 9:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [65 favorites]


The article that christ24 links to really crystallized for me just how intense the double standard in American politics is.

In order to be a major-party candidate for President, a lady needs to have flawless academic credentials, decades of experience in government and nonprofit work, been a significant component of presidential campaign, been a major player in one of the most significant legislative efforts ever in reshaping a major American industry, participated in national politics at highest level for decades, been elected to statewide office twice, served as senator with time on major committees, run for national office once, acted with unbelievable class and grace to the person who did get the job, and then act as his Secretary of State.

And people will still criticize you over, and you will agree with, how you aren't as charismatic as others.

If you're (white) dude, you just???? go into the family business????? and spend decades repeatedly flaming out????? then become a major party candidate for president in a year!!!!!!
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [66 favorites]


oh thanks New Yorker FUCK YOU
posted by angrycat at 9:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is "“People wanted her to act more like Bernie, but I don’t think they meant the one from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s.’ ”

Huh. I've been following a thread on Something Awful that chronicles the worst of the right-wing political cartoonists: Garrison, Ramirez and all their ilk. Trust me when I say this is downright charming in comparison.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:09 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is "“People wanted her to act more like Bernie, but I don’t think they meant the one from ‘Weekend at Bernie’s.’ ”

The breitbart contingent has been making this exact joke for a long long time now, so not only is this a tasteless cartoon, it's also lazy and derivative.
posted by dis_integration at 9:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


“I will tell you this: I do think it would be possible, but at what price?” he said, after being asked if he thought America would survive Clinton. “At what price? The roots of the tree of liberty are watered by what? The blood, of who? The tyrants to be sure, but who else? The patriots.”

If this had been said before this year, it would be a national story. Now it's going to be a footnote at best.

Ratchet ratchet ratchet.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Here's the New Yorker cartoon, text is

"Christ, what an asshole."
posted by holgate at 9:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


The New Yorker cartoon is funny...a cartoon is NOT the same as the demeaning stuff handed out by Trump...the magazine is clearly in support of Hillary.
posted by Postroad at 9:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, on the matter of health for a president... we understand she wouldn't have to do any gladiator-style arena fighting, right?

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you saying that sending freshly-elected heads of state into the wilderness for a month to face The Trials is something only Australians do? Huh.
posted by um at 9:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Huh. I've been following a thread on Something Awful that chronicles the worst of the right-wing political cartoonists: Garrison, Ramirez and all their ilk. Trust me when I say this is downright charming in comparison.

I followed that thread for years before I realized how constantly furious I was because of it. The sheer levels of smug ignorance and open hate in right-wing cartoons were just too much for me.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pope Guilty, you're a smarter man than I. I can't look away.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:16 AM on September 12, 2016


But Lauer's interviewing skills are second to none. He has hosted thousands of episodes of the "Today" show.


These two things are not the same thing.
posted by sexyrobot at 9:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


By the time I get to the bottom of these new posts on a Monday morning there are about 25 new comments if I click on the 'new comments, show' link at the bottom. Then when I get done with those there are about 7 new ones, etc. I feel like I am living the internet equivalent of Xeno's paradox.
posted by Killick at 9:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


I am like light years away from the competence of Hillary Clinton and I have chronic nerve pain that regularly and last night had me screaming into a pillow and all weekend long I was grading papers when I wasn't screaming I am here at my school about to teach a class (after no sleep because screaming) and because of my body I will probably have moments of excruciating pain in class and no student will ever know it because I do my fucking job and I do it well and you know I was like, boy, this election, fuck, and then I saw the New Yorker cartoon and you know, really, HRC? If you want to develop a wheelchair assassin squad a la Infinite Jest I am your lady and I will bring righteous wrath upon your enemies and

I AM SO ANGRY AT THIS STUPID COUNTRY
posted by angrycat at 9:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [86 favorites]


Guys, I am growing as a person though. Because when a former co-worker messaged me on FB to ask why I was supporting Clinton when Trump was "a lifelong Democrat" and "Clinton is as racist as they come" I just replied "Oh, let's not" and went back to watching tv.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [70 favorites]


> “They try to silence us,” Bevin said. “They try to get us to shut our mouths. They try to embarrass us. Don’t be embarrassed. We were not redeemed to have a spirit of timidity.” He tried to inspire young people, “Be bold. There’s enough Neville Chamberlains in the world. Be a Winston Churchill…There are quite enough sheep already. Be a shepherd.”

These fucking people. The Governor of Kentucky is literally threatening civil war because he doesn't like being called a racist, and because people he doesn't like are being granted long-overdue basic human rights. TYRANNY!!!
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


Chillary Clinton Beer Coozie Update:

My coozies did not arrive in time for the Labor Day cookout, so unfortunately the party merely enjoyed delicious grilled and smoked foods without incurring subtle brainwashing. The coozies did, however, arrive in time for the first football Sunday of the season. Given that my living room transforms into FOOTBALL ROOM every Sunday during the NFL season, and is filled with dudes who are reluctantly voting for Hillary (if at all), I will use them and the convivial football atmosphere to foster more positive unconscious associations toward Hillary.


my fantasy team this season is The Vagenda of Manocide, they are currently 1-0
posted by palindromic at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [54 favorites]


palindromic: Stroh's? For real? Get behind me, Satan.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Atlantic's appropriate headline: Hillary Clinton Attended a 9/11 Memorial Service Despite Illness
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [73 favorites]


They could wheel her on stage in an iron lung and I'd vote for her against Trump.

Conversely, she could slay a deer with her teeth and then climb a mountain and Trump lovers would say she was weak.
posted by emjaybee at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


I had to rage a little this morning because the NPR politics podcast continues to confound all reality. They do this thing where they acknowledge the steepness of the Trump/Clinton grading curve, then play right into it anyway.

Paraphrased: "Clinton had a bad week with more of her emails being released and lingering questions about the Clinton Foundation"

Right, 30 emails got released, including some where Colin Powell told her that she should run a private server, and we continue to see that the Clinton Foundation is an effective well-run charity whose donors received no special treatment with the Secretary of State. And that's... bad? This is what constitutes a bad week for her?
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected:

Him first.
posted by zarq at 9:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


TreeRooster: "So to sum up, assuming it is legally and practically feasible (big assumption here...there are lots of ways to send money home!) the plan is to threaten the Mexican government."

There's another layer to this hilarious incompetence. He's not just threatening Mexico -- he's also threatening Western Union (and also other money-wiring companies), an American S&P 500 company with thousands of employees, locations in most states (and lots of congressional districts), and billions in revenue, some of which is no doubt allocated to political lobbying.

I find this kind of strategic myopia (i.e.: focusing only on your direct opponents and ignoring other interested parties) oddly mysterious. In a similar vein, GW Bush's administration had some kind of plan for N. Korea that basically needed to assume that China would just sit back and do nothing while N. Korea collapsed. Like, why would they accept that?
posted by mhum at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


30 emails got released

And only one was new, and it was a diplomat complimenting her on her Senate testimony.
posted by chris24 at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


There's almost no reporting about that Kentucky governor's speech yet. Everyone please go share the fuck outta that and tag reporters. It is in-s-a-n-e. He is an actual governor.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Paraphrased: "Clinton had a bad week with more of her emails being released and lingering questions about the Clinton Foundation"

I am getting REALLY fucking sick of seeing only the accusations about Clinton reported and only rarely reporting of the public debunking of said accusations.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


Back to the phone banks. It pleases me any time I try to join a state's bank and there's no one left to call.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Conversely, she could slay a deer with her teeth and then climb a mountain and Trump lovers would say she was weak.

Yeah well Real Men Presidents kill the deer with a mere stare, then stride to it and manfully Presidentially consume it, bones and all, by unlocking their manly Presidential jaw and swallowing it entire.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah well Real Men Presidents kill the deer with a mere stare, then stride to it and manfully Presidentially consume it, bones and all, by unlocking their manly Presidential jaw and swallowing it entire.

So the Democrats should've nominated Saxton Hale?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah well Real Men Presidents kill the deer with a mere stare, then stride to it and manfully Presidentially consume it, bones and all, by unlocking their manly Presidential jaw and swallowing it entire.

Well that sounds uncomfortably like The Beast from The Magicians.

Which works pretty well as as a Trump comparison, except Martin is more sympathetic.
posted by wildblueyonder at 9:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


On day 2 Mexico will immediately protest. They receive approximately $24 billion a year in remittances from Mexican nationals working in the United States. The majority of that amount comes from illegal aliens. It serves as de facto welfare for poor families in Mexico.

Holy fucking shit, Google confirms that this is an actual quote from the Trump campaign web site.

Those immigrants, including child laborers, who are working under near-slavery health-destroying conditions to scrape together packets of money at sub-minimum-wage rates, to the vast profit of their "job creator" masters, and sending those packets of money to other impoverished people, now count as a form of welfare in the conservative legendarium. As well as the money earned by less precarious immigrants.

And these are the jobs they want Americans filling, with any improvements in working conditions left to the vagaries of benefits from Trump's super-amazing-the-best-ever negotiating skills trickling down. These people, who love throwing the term "Tea Party" around and speaking in soaring worshipful terms of Independence and the founding of the American state, and pretend a hatred of tyranny, in actuality would not at all mind being ruled by a King George, if he was wearing a business suit and told them all the time how free they are. They all want to be Baldrick from the first season of Blackadder, living their lives in the hope of some day getting a turnip of their own.
posted by XMLicious at 9:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


Conversely, she could slay a deer with her teeth and then climb a mountain and Trump lovers would say she was weak.

"Mouthgate: Clinton fails to slay deer with her own hands"

"Crowngate: Hillary relies on secretly implanted artificial dental aids to take on deer"

"Sherpagate: Was there really anything in Hillary's pack at all?"

"Mountaingate: Hillary secretly had the mountain lowered by a massive team of aides before climbing, six political enemies buried alive under the resulting pile of dirt and rock"

"Deergate: It was an animatronic deer created by the liberal puppets at Disney Imagineering"

I must admit––I can see why these people find making up utter nonsense to be fun.
posted by zachlipton at 9:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Have you considered that your candidate may, in fact, be a fish?

oh wow! i never really gave it any thought before, but what if trump is an actual ferret with a really large anal cyst?!?!?!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


> If you're (white) dude, you just???? go into the family business????? and spend decades repeatedly flaming out????? then become a major party candidate for president in a year!!!!!!

Hillary Clinton has surely been battling increasingly virulent sexism her entire life, but she's always managed to overcome it and level up. Now she has reached the last level, and is up against misogyny's Final Boss.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Mycoplasma pneumonia is contagious, but it has a slow start, and people are unaware they are ill, it is a dry, not particularly productive cough. A person can have mycoplasma pneumonia for a month before they finally accept they have something, that is making them feel unwell. That is why it is called walking pneumonia. Staff members who were ill, may have given it to her, but it is common in late summer and fall. So, it is not a crime to get ill, even keel right over from it. Hillary Clinton is not a biological warfare criminal, nor is she faking being well enough to run for president. On the other hand he chief opponent is faking being mentally, or morally, healthy enough to run for president.

Examples: Why can't I just use nuclear weapons? Let's just take the oil in the Middle East.
posted by Oyéah at 9:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


But Clinton has human lungs! Trump's entire respiratory system was replaced with pure WINNING years ago, just ask his doctor.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


"trump is an actual ferret" There are telepaths in Metafilter.
posted by Oyéah at 9:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


KY Gov. Matt Bevin predicts ‘shedding of the blood of tyrants and patriots’ if Clinton is elected

This is horrific on its face, but the trickle-down from it is just as ghastly to watch. This weekend, I found myself standing behind two outdoors-y looking gentlemen, each wearing a black tee-shirt. One listed half a dozen calibers of ammunition, with a large message announcing that each is faster than calling 911. The other depicted a large tree, dripping something viscous and sanguine, with that damned "blood of tyrants" quote overlaid in shiny silver letters.

Did I mention that this was in Boston? At the aquarium? And that each was accompanying a child under the age of six?

People are emboldened by this kind of lunacy, when it get shouted from the highest levels and no one pushes back with to say "actually that is insane and you are a dangerous person who should be locked away from polite society." No one wears that tee-shirt around here a year ago, much less to a building full of kids.
posted by Mayor West at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [64 favorites]


Phone banking: I try to do 20 calls every day on my lunch hour. Today, I called PA, RI, and MT (I switch states whenever I feel like it, I like to feel like I'm touching the whole nation). Today, only one person picked up, and they're supporting Hillary! Woot woot!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Gelatin: "Me, most days:

Gets in car, turns it on, radio comes on set to NPR.

Cokie Roberts

Flips radio off

/scene
"

I'd add in yelling incoherently at the radio before I change the channel and my wife asking why I listen if it makes me crazy.
posted by octothorpe at 9:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:51 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm cringing because all of the 2008 talk about John McCain not being healthy enough to be president (equally armchair and ageist stuff) is coming back to bite the [D]s here.
posted by kimberussell at 9:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


the 2008 talk about John McCain not being healthy enough to be president (equally armchair and ageist stuff) is coming back to bite the [D]s here.

Palin. End of story.
posted by chris24 at 9:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.

Yeah, I think I remember playing that one... you had to fight your way through eight levels of SS guards and attack dogs, before you faced the final boss equipped with dual miniguns.

Actually putting swastikas on the guy seemed a little over-the-top, TBH, but I guess they were worried the symbolism might be lost.
posted by Mayor West at 9:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


But Clinton has human lungs! Trump's entire respiratory system was replaced with pure WINNING years ago, just ask his doctor.

It's true. I contacted his physician and he sent me a WordPerfect file explaining that Trump is "basically a superhuman" at this point. It had an MS Paint illustration with it showing him vanquishing his enemies with the "Pew! PEW!" noises helpfully drawn in.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump's speaking live now in Baltimore. He hasn't said anything abnormally stupid yet.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2016


Trump Castle 2 [real], Electric Boogaloo [fake].
posted by dis_integration at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2016


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.

Beyond Trump Castle.

Nininininyah! Nininininyah! yowp
posted by Existential Dread at 9:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


He's going on about the baskets of deplorable thing now. Please Donald, not the briar patch!
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


I've had both bronchitis and walking pneumonia. It's hard enough to breath with your chest full of fluid without going out into the humidity.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:58 AM on September 12, 2016




It's the 'tsunami of lies' again. I couldn't keep up if I tried.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


ChurchHatesTucker, how do you achieve the optimum level of 'high' to watch these things?

like I can't even figure out if I'm too high or not high enough
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well that sounds uncomfortably like The Beast from The Magicians.

Which works pretty well as as a Trump comparison, except Martin is more sympathetic.


Nah, no room for extra fingers on those tiny little hands.
posted by Daily Alice at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Trump Castle 2 [real]
Well that looks an awful lot like Leisure Suit Larry to me.
posted by farlukar at 10:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


538: One In Six Eligible Voters Has A Disability (And it’s harder for them to vote because of it):
The number of eligible voters with disabilities is growing faster than the number of eligible voters without disabilities. A set of projections from two Rutgers professors show that approximately one-sixth of November’s electorate will be comprised of people with disabilities. They total 34.6 million people in all, a 10.8 percent increase since 2008. The number of eligible voters without disabilities, meanwhile, has grown by only 8.5 percent.

For years, their growing numbers have led disability rights activists to claim that voters with disabilities are a “sleeping giant” that could, one day, decide national elections. But politicians can’t count on voters with disabilities as a voting bloc in the way that they can with so many other demographics. People with disabilities tend to support Republicans and Democrats in fairly equal numbers, which complicates efforts to tailor political messages to them (and compounds their appeal as a potential swing demographic). And people with disabilities are substantially less likely to vote, in part because they face significant challenges at polling places. So what does all that mean for politicians trying to reach them?

Until now, neither party has chosen to make political hay out of disability rights; the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 and a set of amendments to the law in 2008 were both passed with overwhelming bipartisan support and signed by Republican presidents. Lisa Schur, a political scientist at Rutgers and one of the co-authors of the projections, said that several powerful demographic factors help explain why people with disabilities are not a political force.
posted by palindromic at 10:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Unless Trump goes off script and says something newly offensive/wrong instead of the same old wrong lies I think we're good without the liveblogging, especially Day Trump.

Oh me? I live here now. Hope that's cool. I'll take the floor, no bother, just toss me a pillow or 30.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:05 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


He's going on about the baskets of deplorable thing now. Please Donald, not the briar patch!

I suspect many of Trump's supporters have VHS bootlegs of that movie, since Disney won't release it anymore.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:06 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Palin. End of story.

It was a concern in May 2008 before he picked her in August 2008. But thanks for shutting me down in literally 2 minutes.
posted by kimberussell at 10:07 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


thanks for shutting me down in literally 2 minutes.

Sorry, I meant 'end of story' to mean the end of my counterpoint, not the end of any debate with you.
posted by chris24 at 10:10 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


"we will abandon the policy of reckless regime change favored by my opponent" [real]

all my evens have run away, shouting that they are not capable
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


How can "ageist" stuff be "biting the Ds" when Trump is older than Clinton? And women live longer than men, generally, so it makes even less sense?

Also yeah, Palin. Had McCain won and then been incapacitated, we'd have had Palin in the Oval Office.

If something happens to Clinton, we have Paine, who appears to be a nice guy who could do a decent job and would definitely not push the button just to show the world who's boss.
posted by emjaybee at 10:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


It was a concern in May 2008

And in both of the examples you provide, it is the press making an issue of it, not Democrats.
posted by chris24 at 10:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm cringing because all of the 2008 talk about John McCain not being healthy enough to be president (equally armchair and ageist stuff) is coming back to bite the [D]s here.

Kind of a false equivalence. I recall that of the Dems concerned about McCain's health, much of their concern was that Palin would then become president. A lot of people (myself included) were utterly terrified at the thought of her becoming president for similar reasons we're terrified Trump will win. I think a lot of people were saying essentially "McCain is pretty old and you need to be ready for a Palin presidency. If that thought scares the crap out of you consider voting for Obama." I also don't think the Dems pushing that were creating body double conspiracy theories about it. And on top of that, McCain had 25 years on Obama while Clinton and Trump are pretty close in age so if there is a concern about age it applies pretty equally.

Anyway, if the thought of Kaine being president scares you more than Trump/Pence being president, then by all means let Hillary's health factor into your decision.
posted by Green With You at 10:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


He said 'thank you' to the people like six times, I'm concerned he may have a fatal case of Tourette's Syndrome.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


If something happens to Clinton, we have Paine, who appears to be a nice guy who could do a decent job and would definitely not push the button just to show the world who's boss.

If Tim Kaine was asked about pushing the big red button he'd be all "well I've always wanted to push all the buttons in an elevator but it'd be wrong on so many levels".
posted by Talez at 10:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [70 favorites]


Wow, those Trump video games are some hot garbage.

The casino games are just basic-ass games with 'Trump' jizzed on them, Donald Trump's Real Estate Tycoon is SimShitty 2000 (just to be fair, though, it's one of the top ten city-building games released for the N-Gage), and not only does The Apprentice: Los Angeles look disturbingly like the Kim Kardashian game, they're both just branded versions of Diner Dash.
posted by box at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Mother Jones: Nearly 6 Million People Will Be Barred From Voting in November:
"It's been a roller coaster," Garrett says. "One minute having it, then the next minute losing it. I'm confident [that I'll be able to vote], but I'm afraid that they'll find something else so felons can't have their rights."

Their roller coaster is not restricted to the state of Virginia. According to the Sentencing Project, a criminal-justice research and advocacy organization, more than 5.8 million people across the country with felony convictions on their records will not be able to vote in November. In 46 states, those with felony convictions are able to get their civil rights restored, including the right to vote, after completing prison or jail time, probation, or the payment of fines, but that takes time. Maine and Vermont allow voting from jail, even for those convicted of felonies. In Virginia, Iowa, Kentucky, and Florida, voting rights for those with felony convictions can only be restored by the governor. The efforts to provide voting rights for felons is one of several voting rights battles preceding this election, including ones over voter ID and cuts to early voting.

Former US Attorney General Eric Holder says he thinks the rights should be restored as soon as someone is released from prison.
posted by palindromic at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]




Maybe we can make a deal with the GOP to swap Palin for Trump and we'll spot them....let's say... Ohio? She's bad but not this bad, lord almighty.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016


If something happens to Clinton, we have Paine, who appears to be a nice guy

Indeed, these are soul-trying times.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think a lot of people were saying essentially "McCain is pretty old and you need to be ready for a Palin presidency. If that thought scares the crap out of you consider voting for Obama."

Yes, that's ageism.
posted by Etrigan at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


The casino games are just basic-ass games with 'Trump' jizzed on them

Eeww.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yes, that's ageism.

From my vantage point it's prudential. One coronary and we get "I saw some Russian guy from my house giving me the finger dontchaknow and now I'm gonna nuke him to show him who's boss!"
posted by Talez at 10:19 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump had an actual computer game series back in the day. It was about his casino. Trump Castle, I think.

Castle Trumpenstein?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:22 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yes, that's ageism.

From my vantage point it's prudential. One coronary and we get "I saw some Russian guy from my house giving me the finger dontchaknow and now I'm gonna nuke him to show him who's boss!"


One can have the same concern about an unprepared VP becoming President without tying it into "Well, McCain's hella old, so he's definitely gonna die." Especially when comparing him to two candidates who are only 1-2 years younger than he was at the time.
posted by Etrigan at 10:22 AM on September 12, 2016


Maybe we can make a deal with the GOP to swap Palin for Trump and we'll spot them....let's say... Ohio?

Hey, wait, I LIVE IN OHIO!
posted by cooker girl at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


The odds have shifted somewhat on the betting markets. Not surprisingly, money is going onto Trump.

I'm guessing that a 20 or a 54 means that for every unit bet you'd get 20 or 54 units back if successful. What does a 1/2 or 11/20 or 4/7 mean on those charts? That you only get half your original bet back? Or half + your original bet?
posted by Mitheral at 10:23 AM on September 12, 2016


Are we sure that "basket of deplorables" isn't meant to refer to the media itself?
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]




Meanwhile, there was a fire at the Fort Pierce Islamic Center, where the Pulse shooter prayed, and the authorities have ruled it to be arson. This has been your early Monday morning instance of hate, 2016.
posted by zachlipton at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yes, that's ageism.

Is it actually ageism to say "All else being equal, a 70-year-old man is more likely to die in the next four to eight years than a 50-year-old man"?
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Especially when comparing him to two candidates who are only 1-2 years younger than he was at the time.

But at the time people were comparing him to 47 year old Obama. His age isn't an issue for president now.
posted by chris24 at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


If Tim Kaine was asked about pushing the big red button he'd be all "well I've always wanted to push all the buttons in an elevator but it'd be wrong on so many levels".

One shining light in this whole campaign has been the plethora of "Well Tim Kaine would say..." dad jokes that have surfaced since he became the VP nominee
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm guessing that a 20 or a 54 means that for every unit bet you'd get 20 or 54 units back if successful. What does a 1/2 or 11/20 or 4/7 mean on those charts? That you only get half your original bet back? Or half + your original bet?

A 1-2 means if you put up $2 you get your bet +$1. Consider the odds as a fraction, 4/7, multiply by your bet, then add your bet (B * (4/7) + B = your winnings). So in a 4/7 if you bet 20 bucks you'll get 31.43 or so back if you win (that includes your original bet).

This is *way* off topic.
posted by dis_integration at 10:28 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


oh wow! i never really gave it any thought before, but what if trump is an actual ferret with a really large anal cyst?!?!?!

Hm, interesting. I never knew ferrets could do handstands.
posted by sexyrobot at 10:29 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


This is *way* off topic.

Probability 101 is 5000% on topic.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough. She's done a ton of good stuff, but the constant attacks put her on the defensive, which she doesn't do well.

She should spin the stumble as "There's a lot of Americans that go to work even though they're not feeling well, because they have to, because our health care system, while filled with great care, isn't accessible to them. If they can't call out sick, the least I could do is soldier on."

And "Am I going to walk back my deplorable comments? Look, there's video of some of his supporters calling for me to be arrested, killed and what have you. Honestly, deplorable was the most diplomatic way of calling them out."

She really needs to do stuff like that and stop apologizing, because she's got little to apologize for.


Okay but this is really interesting, dialectically, because maybe there's a reason/context why she doesn't do all this. If the solution sounds so simple ("She doesn't do X enough"; "She really needs to do X"), and yet the person doesn't operationalize these various of solutions, that's potentially suggestive of political orientation. The analysis should go on from there.
posted by polymodus at 10:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


A little late, but Faint of Butt and Pope Guilty, it's worth it to read the ?annual? worst political cartoon 'Gay Abortions' awards that pop up in D&D. It's like a condensed version of the lumbering dinosaur that is the political cartoon threads, and while all the horror is thus condensed even further, it does save on clicking.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 10:32 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it actually ageism to say "All else being equal, a 70-year-old man is more likely to die in the next four to eight years than a 50-year-old man"?

Yes. Yes, it is. It's the same kind of bullshit that leads companies not to hire old people because "all else being equal", they're more likely to die, or not to hire women because "all else being equal", they're more likely to take time off for pregnancy.

If you don't want to vote for someone based on their VP pick, because being President is a pretty dangerous and draining job, and there's an 18 percent chance that they're going to die in office, fine. But explicitly tying it to the candidate's age is ageism.
posted by Etrigan at 10:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm not saying I'm against Hillary for goodness' sake, but it's interesting to me when "concerns" from past elections are dredged up again and flipped in current ones and I wanted to try and participate in an election thread by sharing my observation. That's all.

And it was more than just the press who had concerns, but I don't have the time right now to go trawling around to provide proper citations to defend.
posted by kimberussell at 10:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was thinking some more about the "Clinton is the real racist" right wing meme and it really blows my mind that it doesn't bother the people who believe that mess that people of color obviously don't see it that way. I was trying to understand the mental gymnastics required to believe that the person people of color tell you is racist is not racist and the person they say isn't racist actually is. And the only answer I can come up with is that they're somehow convinced they understand racism better than people of color do, which, frankly, is its own kind of alternate universe of mind-blowing racism. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, given that this comes from the same people who think old men are the best arbiters of the health of young women.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


From that WaPo article linked waaayy upthread:
Clinton’s doctor did release a letter detailing some aspects of her health, but she has not released as much medical information as some prior presidential candidates, including Arizona Sen. John McCain, who in 2008 released more than a thousand pages of medical records to be scrutinized by the media.
Suggesting that there may be something duplicitous about not releasing 1000+ pages of medical records seems a bit farfetched, even for current journalistic standards.
posted by Superplin at 10:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Is it actually ageism to say "All else being equal, a 70-year-old man is more likely to die in the next four to eight years than a 50-year-old man"?

Well, the unstated part of this phrase is "therefore we should deny him a shot at the presidency," and, yes, that's what makes it agism.

But it isn't actually true, when it comes to presidents. Eight US presidents have died in office, four assassinated, four of natural causes. The oldest to die of natural causes was Harrison at 68. Once you get past that point, statistically you seem to have a pretty good chance of surviving the presidency.

I mean, I suppose McCain might yet die before Obama leaves office, but at this moment we know he would have survived his first term and, if reelected, almost the majority of his second term.
posted by maxsparber at 10:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I wanted to try and participate in an election thread by sharing my observation. That's all.

And if I discouraged that, I am truly sorry. I should've phrased it better. I hope you continue to post.
posted by chris24 at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Not to applaud tricks from 'Manchurian Candidate' too loudly, but note we're debating not IF Trump supporters are deplorable, but how many

Far from being a gaffe, Clinton's comment was a well-executed one-two punch. Her alt-right speech was a detailed, well-citationed analysis of Trump's support that the media blew off with false equivalency and now people are talking about exactly how many of his supporters are racists.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


(MSNBC, right now) -- Gov. Granholm is a great surrogate.

She hits exactly the right balance between frustration, eye-rolling amusement at the ridiculousness of the GREAT HEALTH SCARE OF SEPTEMBER 2016 & quiet confidence that we'll get through this.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


DirtyOldTown: the only answer I can come up with is that they're somehow convinced they understand racism better than people of color do

In my experience this particular kind of white person shows up on both the right and the left, albeit for very different reasons. But yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC.

disclaimer: i am a white people
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 10:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Gov. Granholm is a great surrogate.

Every time I've seen her she's been amazing. And I was unfamiliar until this election.
posted by chris24 at 10:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC

Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:39 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]



In my experience this particular kind of white person shows up on both the right and the left, albeit for very different reasons. But yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC.


Yes, right, left, in the middle, and all over the Metafilter. This is totally a thing, I am a PoC.
posted by zutalors! at 10:40 AM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


but at this moment we know he would have survived his first term

That's not how counterfactuals work. Maybe being president was enough to kill him? But yeah I think speculation about a candidates health is squicky and thought so in '08. McCain chanting "bomb iran" to the tune of "Barbara Ann" was all I needed to see to never vote for him.
posted by dis_integration at 10:40 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud

A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.
posted by zutalors! at 10:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [37 favorites]


Gov. Granholm is a great surrogate.

Every time I've seen her she's been amazing. And I was unfamiliar until this election.


If you want to see the power of Not Giving Any More Fucks, Granholm is a great example. She can't run for Governor of Michigan anymore because we have stupid term limits, and she can't be President because she was born in Canada. She could maybe take a Cabinet job, but why would she even want to? And thus, she has decided, Fuck This Shit, and it is pretty goddamn glorious.

(Also, her early life is hilarious and awesome.)
posted by Etrigan at 10:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [36 favorites]


A little late, but Faint of Butt and Pope Guilty, it's worth it to read the ?annual? worst political cartoon 'Gay Abortions' awards that pop up in D&D. It's like a condensed version of the lumbering dinosaur that is the political cartoon threads, and while all the horror is thus condensed even further, it does save on clicking.

Oh, yeah, I keep an eye out for the Gay Abortions awards every January. It's a lot less stressful when it's not every single day, you know?
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's not how counterfactuals work.

If McCain had been president, it is.
posted by maxsparber at 10:43 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.

It brings to mind the Meta about "derp" that included lots of people dissecting the issue "intellectually" and ignoring the disabled people voicing their experiences in that very thread. It's the same kind of attitude.

the kind of shit people say when they think a person of the group they're talking about isn't in the room shouldn't still shock me, but it does
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 10:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


comment that was going to say what Etrigan said above

Excepting that-- I'd love to see her in the Cabinet or the Senate if she wants to do so.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


saw someone on Twitter saying Hillary's going to "Al Gore this shit," as if Al Gore lost because he was a bad person and not because Americans run screaming away from reality and facts and basic literacy.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Regarding white people thinking they know more about racism than anyone else, Clickhole was on this topic a few months back.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


If anyone is interested in listening to the Tim Kaine speech from Saturday night's HRC gala you can watch & listen to it here. The comments they're talking about in this article are at about the 17 minute mark. He has some other remarks on faith and accepting the diversity of creation immediately following.

It's an enjoyable speech. I was somewhat surprised to look up this recording and find it was a half hour long. Didn't feel that long. (Spoiler: no dad jokes. He made me tear up a few times. He also never asked someone to "take that fucking Wells Fargo logo off the wall while I speak to you; did you not read my bio?")

At the 5 minute mark he thanks whoever decided he'd speak before John Lewis "who is an impossible act to follow." He ain't wrong. You can watch that speech here, and while I am not in disagreement that I don't know much about raising chickens I did raise one once so I'm not completely dumb. But then again I also remembered the Sears wishbook.

I am also still not sure, after a second listen, what that has to do with anything. But honestly I'd happily have listened to John Lewis talk about chickens for a whole hour. And it was worth the setup for the Senate/Chicken Burn of 2016.
posted by phearlez at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Heh. If I had a nickel for every time a white person has explained racism to me. White people learn that their opinions are always welcome and worthwhile and that they are neutral and unbiased in matters of race (unlike POC, who can't help being biased because of the very fact that they are affected by racism), so it's not really that surprising, but yes, looked at another way it is mind-boggling.
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


If you want to see the power of Not Giving Any More Fucks, Granholm is a great example. She can't run for Governor of Michigan anymore because we have stupid term limits, and she can't be President because she was born in Canada. She could maybe take a Cabinet job, but why would she even want to? And thus, she has decided, Fuck This Shit, and it is pretty goddamn glorious.

I'm still happy that I got to vote for her in 2002. And not just because she was running against Dick Posthumus. (I mean, has there ever been a more Republican name? Talk about linguistic determinism)

posted by rp at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


saw someone on Twitter saying Hillary's going to "Al Gore this shit," as if Al Gore lost because he was a bad person and not because Americans run screaming away from reality and facts and basic literacy.

It didn't help that Gore ran screaming away from literally the most popular president of the last fifty years.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Re: white people who think they understand racism better than POC:

Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud.

I mean, you're talking about the same people who populate the All Lives Matter movement. It's a fundamentally weird notion but it's also very obviously how a large swath of white people in this country think, and it really should not come as a surprise to anyone here.
posted by palomar at 10:54 AM on September 12, 2016


Heh. If I had a nickel for every time a white person has explained racism to me. White people learn that their opinions are always welcome and worthwhile and that they are neutral and unbiased in matters of race (unlike POC, who can't help being biased because of the very fact that they are affected by racism), so it's not really that surprising, but yes, looked at another way it is mind-boggling.

I think as a non-POC who tries to be on the right side of things, it's a bit like being a feminist man hearing about sexism. That is, we try to listen, and of course we know you're telling the truth and we absolutely believe when it's explained to us how bad and how pervasive the problem is. And we try to respect that and incorporate that information into our worldview. But every now and then, we get a slightly different angle on things that makes us realize all over again exactly how bad and pervasive this shit really is. It's not that we weren't listening before, it's just that occasional moments of being stunned by the reality of the thing are needed to hammer things home.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


just because she was running against Dick Posthumus

Holy Mother of God I assumed that was a joke, like the candidate had died or something. Nope.
posted by waitingtoderail at 10:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


yes, there are great big swaths of white people who think they "get" racism better than POC

Obviously, that has to be the case. But it's still a fundamentally weird notion, so much so that one wonders how it can even survive being said aloud.


Because those same people think there's a sizable number of complaints about racism that are BS. Because they have convinced themselves that denying another person's lived experience is perfectly reasonable. Because they don't see the racism in that.
posted by phearlez at 10:55 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


It didn't help that Gore ran screaming away from literally the most popular president of the last fifty years.

Yeah who would think distancing yourself from a president who had just had an impeachment hearing (albeit an unsuccessful impeachment) might be a good idea?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh good we can re-litigate Bush/Gore in ANOTHER thread.

(that's sarcasm: let's not, please)
posted by phearlez at 10:58 AM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


Because those same people think there's a sizable number of complaints about racism that are BS.

Well, by definition they're minority opinions.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Slowclap.gif
posted by phearlez at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Suggesting that there may be something duplicitous about not releasing 1000+ pages of medical records seems a bit farfetched, even for current journalistic standards.

I'll give NPR credit for mentioning this morning that McCain released an unusually large amount of medical information, and for noting that the letter from Trump's doctor appeared to be ... a hasty piece of work.

(You know what else is traditional for candidates to release? Their tax returns...)
posted by Gelatin at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


just because she was running against Dick Posthumus

Holy Mother of God I assumed that was a joke, like the candidate had died or something. Nope.


They pronounce it pretty much the same, too.
posted by Etrigan at 11:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Bill de Blasio: I have pneumonia.
Andrew Cuomo: Some people talk the talk about pneumonia. I have DOUBLE pneumonia.
BDB: You're so mean.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:04 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah who would think distancing yourself from a president who had just had an impeachment hearing (albeit an unsuccessful impeachment) might be a good idea?

When it's an impeachment hearing that saw public opinion firmly on the side of the impeached and actually saw presidential approval ratings go up in response? Why, somebody who thinks the electorate is far more right-wing than it actually is, to the point of appointing the most right-wing Democrat short of Zell Miller still in office at the time as Veep.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:05 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]




Yeah who would think distancing yourself from a president who had just had an impeachment hearing (albeit an unsuccessful impeachment) might be a good idea?

Clinton's approval rating increased after the impeachment. He finished his term in office with the highest approval rating of any President going back to Truman.
posted by JackFlash at 11:07 AM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)

My god, man, you have no idea what you've done. Not even the faintest grasp. Run while you still can.
posted by Mayor West at 11:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [55 favorites]


Lindsey Graham: 35 percent of GOP is racist

"Thirty-five percent of my party believes that Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya; [Trump] has locked that crowd down," he replied. "Now, sixty-five percent of us just think he's a bad president."

From March. I guess that 15% difference is big.
posted by chris24 at 11:14 AM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


I gotta say, as long as he's nowhere near being able to command any military forces, I kinda like NGAF Lindsey Graham.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


Regarding white people who understand racism better than POC... if this is clear to everyone, what that really means is white people think they know what's best for minorities. Clinton is racist because she only panders to minorities to get their votes but won't actually do anything that will help minorities improve their lives. Trump isn't racist because he knows the right way to fix the lives of minorities and will act on his beliefs. That's the mindset that allows white people to think they understand racism best. POC want special or preferential treatment, and that's racist. White people just want everyone treated the same, and that's not racist.

It's an idiotic position to take, of course, because you have to ignore a whole heck of a lot of history and economics to make it work. But that's where it comes from.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:15 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


So far in 2016...
- Bowie and Prince
- Leicester City win the Premiership
- Brexit
- David Cameron is no longer Prime Minister or even an MP
- Trump is nearly President
- ...and the Great British Bake Off is leaving the BBC
posted by Wordshore at 11:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]




The inimitable Jay Smooth provides the bottom-line answer to what percentage of Trump supporters can be counted as deplorable.
posted by shelbaroo at 11:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)

We're going to need you to read all the previous election threads before participating in the current thread. Why do you think tehhund is continuing his ceaseless slog through election threads past? He knows what is required of him.

(jk you don't need to do that because time is a flat circle and the election threads especially so)

(just ignore my deafening harpy screech if you inadvertently re-start an argument we had five threads ago)
posted by yasaman at 11:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


(sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)

Please commit this list of permanently litigated topics to memory:

Emails
Servers
Infosec
Corbs personal political views
Any other thread participant's personal political views
Infosex (long story)
The Crusades
A racist thing some guy on the street said
A racist thing some Bernie bro on Facebook said
Diagnosis: Murder
Non-edible uses of cheese
Regional slang
Bernie vs Hillary
Obama vs Hillary
Stein vs Hillary
Bill vs Hillary
HRC vs Hillary
Killary vs Chillary
Drones
Any election after 1992
Evens in which you can

posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [106 favorites]


- ...and the Great British Bake Off is leaving the BBC

Wait, WHAT??
posted by anastasiav at 11:21 AM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


And don't forget
Stein vs Harambe
posted by filthy light thief at 11:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


The inimitable Jay Smooth provides the bottom-line answer yt to what percentage of Trump supporters can be counted as deplorable.

Quoth Mr. Smooth: "I'm sure there are soe people who come to a cross-burning because they just really like making s'mores... but once you get there, and you see the burning cross and you don't leave, at that point, you have chosen to be at a cross-burning."
posted by tonycpsu at 11:24 AM on September 12, 2016 [82 favorites]


Wait, WHAT??

Everything is ruined.
posted by Wordshore at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.

And even fewer are used to speaking with PoC rather than to them.
posted by biogeo at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


We could use more pics of Tim Kaine eating, though. Not just Tim Kaine holding food, Tim Kaine eating. I'm a little worried that I'm going to become a truther about this.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2016


New YouGov poll doesn't mince words and flat out asks if people think Trump is racist. Not biased against minorities, not racially insensitive.

54% Racist
34% Not Racist
13% Not sure

And bad news for the future of the Rs: Under 30 age group? 77% racist.
posted by chris24 at 11:26 AM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]



A lot of white people are not used to actually speaking to PoC rather than about them.

And even fewer are used to speaking with PoC rather than to them.


when I said "To" I essentially meant with but let's keep correcting and parsing, sure.
posted by zutalors! at 11:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm a little worried that I'm going to become a truther about this.

"Hello worried, I'm Tim Kaine! Eat your vegetables to grow up big and strong!"
posted by Talez at 11:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


And bad news for the future of the Rs: Under 30 age group? 77% [believe Trump is] racist.

How long have the younger generation been the threat of the Republican party? I've heard it said that (many) people become Republican upon buying their first home, but it didn't happen to me and my wife (or anyone in our generation who now owns a house, TBH).
posted by filthy light thief at 11:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Filthy, here's an article on how voters tend to stick with the first party they join.
posted by chris24 at 11:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't mean to put words into your mouth, filthy light thief. But reading that, it did send me off on my own tangent. My immediate reaction was: if becoming a stolidly middle class homeowner makes a person more likely to become a Republican, then dismantling the middle class such that becoming a homeowner was harder for millennials to pull off probably wasn't an awesome long-term strategy.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [49 favorites]


I've heard it said that (many) people become Republican upon buying their first home, but it didn't happen to me and my wife (or anyone in our generation who now owns a house, TBH).

I think it happens when you sell a home and all of a sudden you have an opinion about the capital gains tax.
posted by Talez at 11:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


when I said "To" I essentially meant with but let's keep correcting and parsing, sure.

Sorry if that came across as critical of your statement. I was trying to expand your core point, which I thought was well put, to get at the concept that there are many levels of engagement in dialog with people outside our home communities. I seem to have let my impulse to be pithy and clever trample effective communication.
posted by biogeo at 11:35 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


This just seem so strategically dumb, to the point where it makes me question whether it's a matter of them knowing something I don't or that they are really just this dumb.

If I had a nickle for every time I've had this thought since the conventions, I'd have a LOT of nickles. I'm just realizing that I haven't really been able to articulate the feeling and this comment captures in perfectly!

I think it comes down to a lack of critical thinking. Most people just don't understand that they're idiots. I'm an idiot, I'm always going to be an idiot. When I was 10, I could think of the 5-year-old version of myself and know that they little turn was a moron. At 15, I knew my 10yo self to be an idiot. At 20, 15yo me is the dumb one, and so on. Eventually I realized that five years from now, I'm going to realize that the things I think today are the thoughts of an idiot and it's always going to be that way despite my efforts to continually improve. "Idiot" is really short-hand for something more nuanced but I can be as self-depreciating in my head as I want.

This leads me to assume that my opinions should always be suspect so I think about my opinions critically. I do research to refine and inform those opinions and in some cases, change them entirely. And, I'm always ready to adjust my opinions based on new information be it new to the world or just new to me.

Most people don't do this or aren't very good at it. We're all idiots, not a lot of us know it. Lastly, because I'm an idiot, this might also be totally wrong and I'd be happy to hear the reasons why.
posted by VTX at 11:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [36 favorites]



when I said "To" I essentially meant with but let's keep correcting and parsing, sure.

Sorry if that came across as critical of your statement. I was trying to expand your core point, which I thought was well put, to get at the concept that there are many levels of engagement in dialog with people outside our home communities. I seem to have let my impulse to be pithy and clever trample effective communication.


Thanks!
posted by zutalors! at 11:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I keep waiting for this much-heralded GOP demographic death spiral to finally arrive, but here we are in the Year of our Lord 2016 and Trump's two or three percent behind Hillary.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:39 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


On the topic of talking to white people about race, here's a helpful video that soren_lorensen posted in the prior thread: How To Protect White People's Feelings In The Workplace "Just as it's important to be sensitive to our black, Arab and other non-white co-workers, it's equally important to be sensitive to our white co-workers sensitivity to that sensitivity."

"Being sensitive to white fragility is difficult, which is why we've devised a simple system to foster a non-hostile work environment for your white employees voters:
Stop
Ignore
Listen
Empathize
Never
Complain
Eat"

{/HAMBURGER}
posted by filthy light thief at 11:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump's two or three percent behind Hillary

Among likely voters (usually). And how each poll decides who is and is not a "likely voter" is their own special sauce that sometimes is accurate-ish and sometimes is way off.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:42 AM on September 12, 2016




It seems to me that the obvious response to people complaining about the "basket of deplorables" comment is something along the lines of "she's the only one with the guts to say what everyone's thinking!"

Maybe folks are saying that, I can't deal with staying very current these days.
posted by nickmark at 11:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Oh, and Trump ended his speech today with "We will be one people, under one God."

One God. Wonder which that is?
posted by chris24 at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wotan? Kali? I mean, if he wins, it's a strong argument in their favor.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Donald Trump.
posted by biogeo at 11:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


A drowning pool for Dagon in every home by 2018!
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


"We will be one people, under one God."

or else!
posted by emjaybee at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Oh, and Trump ended his speech today with "We will be one people, under one God."

One God. Wonder which that is?


Best guess? Gozer, the Destructor.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


I keep waiting for this much-heralded GOP demographic death spiral to finally arrive, but here we are in the Year of our Lord 2016 and Trump's two or three percent behind Hillary.

Well, not sure it's the death spiral, but prior to 1992, Rs had won 5 of 6 presidential elections by huge landslides. And the one D win was a very close race despite coming after Nixon's impeachment, pardoning and the end of Vietnam.

Since 1992, Ds have won 5 of 6 popular votes, hopefully about to be 6 of 7. So progress has been made.
posted by chris24 at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Since 1992, Ds have won 5 of 6 popular votes, hopefully about to be 6 of 7. So progress has been made.

And while Congressional Republicans have indulged in unprecedented obstructionism, in time of war and recession, to Obama's agenda, it's also true that Obama's presence in the Oval Office is a firm check on the likes of Paul Ryan getting to enact their Randian blueprint for America.

Which is no cause for complacency -- the White House is bound to go Republican one of these days, which is why it only makes sense for the Democrats to try to achieve majority everywhere and all the time. (Especially in 2020, when control of pre-redistricting state houses will be at stake.)
posted by Gelatin at 11:56 AM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wotan? Kali? I mean, if he wins, it's a strong argument in their favor.

Shivakamini Somakandarkram!!!!
posted by dis_integration at 11:59 AM on September 12, 2016


New YouGov poll doesn't mince words and flat out asks if people think Trump is racist. Not biased against minorities, not racially insensitive.

54% Racist
34% Not Racist
13% Not sure


My worry is that a lot of people think that's a good thing.
posted by msalt at 12:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


>I suspect many of Trump's supporters have VHS bootlegs of that movie, since Disney won't release it anymore.

Just want to verify that this is literally the case in my household. My mom procured a copy of it to show me and my sister. We also had Amos 'n' Andy.


Wait, it's a... movie? I only know Peter Rabbit from the children's books

Is... is the movie... is it very racist?

He's going on about the baskets of deplorable thing now. Please Donald, not the briar patch yt !

Huh, when a section of text containing a youtube link is copy-pasted, the link gets replaced by the text 'yt'.

posted by tivalasvegas at 12:00 PM on September 12, 2016


There are two reasons the GOP is in a death spiral. One is, yep: demographic change. The other is that "FUCK YOU GOT MINE" only works as a rallying cry if enough people get theirs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


> My parents have (blessedly) abandoned their fandoms, but my grandparents are in their 90s and still railing about why they had to take Amos 'n' Andy off the air.

Every now and again I find something like this or this in the bins at thrift stores when I'm digging for records, and my initial response is "Wow, this must be *really* old, like from the 1920s." And then I check the label and it's usually from the early-to-mid '60s. Which is still a long time ago, but only a few years away from being within my lifetime. So not very long ago at all.

One of the reviews from the second link: "If you recall an age when it was the music and not the politics that mattered then you will enjoy once again the wonderful songs of the Black and White Minstrels." Ah yes, what an age that was.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


True, though the GOP has long managed to convince a certain group of voters that "fuck you I will get mine someday (maybe, sort of, I hope, could always win the lotto I guess)" is just as good as "fuck you got mine" and to vote accordingly.
posted by zachlipton at 12:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wait, it's a... movie? I only know Peter Rabbit from the children's books

Is... is the movie... is it very racist?


Song of the South has Br'er Rabbit, not Peter Rabbit. The kinda minstrelsy tone to the stories would be a problem on its own, but possibly worse is how goddamned delighted the African-Americans in the live action sequences are to be servile and/or slaves. (Though I don't think it's ever specified they're slaves, it'd be bad enough if they were just super-excited and grateful to be servants.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:05 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


One God. Wonder which that is?

Wikipedia:
Mammon /ˈmæmən/ in the New Testament of the Bible is commonly thought to mean money or material wealth and is associated with the greedy pursuit of gain. . . . In the Middle Ages it was often personified as a deity and sometimes included in the seven princes of Hell.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:05 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


Wait, it's a... movie? I only know Peter Rabbit from the children's books

The reference is to Br'er Rabbit and the movie Song of the South, rather than Peter Rabbit.

Is... is the movie... is it very racist?

Yeah, it's pretty racist.
posted by nickmark at 12:06 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


BREAKING: Trump releases anti-Trump ad

The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic candidate" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

This will be a big TV buy in OH, FL, NC and PA.


Wow, Team Hillary should shovel a couple $million more to Trump's campaign so that they can give it saturation coverage in even more states. An ad proudly proclaiming that "Yes, in fact I AM the racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, anti-immigrant candidate" is going to fire up the racist base but send everybody else running the opposite direction . . . .
posted by flug at 12:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump says if Hillary Clinton wins, U.S. will 'have a whole different church structure'

Save the Nave, Vote for the Knave: TRUMP 2016
posted by zakur at 12:09 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


> "fuck you I will get mine someday (maybe, sort of, I hope, could always win the lotto I guess)" is just as good as "fuck you got mine" and to vote accordingly.

This mindset seems to be reaching its logical endpoint, which is just "Fuck you."
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


"It's a story about a kindly old enslaved gentleman, Uncle Remus, who has a friendship with the white boy on the plantation, and he tells the boy many stories (for some reason--it's been a while, and I don't remember many of the particulars beyond the setting. I think the boy may have been sick? with the mumps?)."

So it's the work of racists and anti-vaxxers? Maybe Disney will release it from the vault with its new title Song of the Trump.
posted by komara at 12:12 PM on September 12, 2016


passport2dreams has an excellent explainer for Song of the South.
posted by chrchr at 12:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Donald Trump says if Hillary Clinton wins, U.S. will 'have a whole different church structure'

"I served with Emperor Constantine. I knew Emperor Constantine. Emperor Constantine was a friend of mine. Hey dipshit -- you're no Emperor Constantine."
posted by PlusDistance at 12:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I believe Trump is actually aligned with Emperor Palpatine. Common mistake.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]




I suspect many of Trump's supporters have VHS bootlegs of that movie, since Disney won't release it anymore.

Oh hey, we own one of these.

My mom used to work with a woman (my mom teaches, so note that this woman is a teacher, and talked about this at work i.e. school) who was one of those southern people who might not be actively in the KKK but likes to talkbrag about how she has significant ties to certain organizations and also complains about getting MLK Day off as a holiday, though I'm sure that's entirely unrelated.

Anyway, my mom was lamenting after school one day in a discussion about Disney music about how Song of the South has been wiped off the face of the earth because otherwise the music is good and the stories are good and the thing has cultural worth and she wanted my brother and me to know about it, and this woman pipes up "oh! I can get you a copy!" A few days later, a tape showed up. It had Chinese subtitles. My mom sat us down before we watched it and explained why it was problematic and why the racist KKK lady had a copy, and then we all watched it and never touched it again.

So, yeah.
posted by phunniemee at 12:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [58 favorites]


"I served with Emperor Constantine. I knew Emperor Constantine. Emperor Constantine was a friend of mine. Hey dipshit -- you're no Emperor Constantine."

You misspelled Palpatine. HTH. [/usenet]
posted by The Bellman at 12:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


In a small piece of good news, The Great British Bake Off will switch to Channel 4 from the BBC. I watch this show with my grandmother, a republican, and it helps us bridge the political/generational gap. I think she's starting to come around. She asked me about Hillary's health yesterday and was happy to know Hillary (allegedly) wears kevlar because in her words "there are all the crazies out there". Hope, folks.
posted by erisfree at 12:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Oh, yeah, no, I was conflating Br'er Rabbit and Peter Rabbit -- not the Beatrix Potter one, but the Thornton Burgess one.

Much less problematic. Although now that I know they're on Project Gutenberg I'll probably read them and be appalled
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:20 PM on September 12, 2016


The crazy thing about the Uncle Remus stories was how HUGE they were at the time. Beatrix Potter illustrated them. Mark Twain read them to his children. AA Milne was read them as a child, he referred to them as "the sacred book" and they partly inspired his later Winnie the Pooh. They've been called by children's literature scholars as "irrefutably the central event in the making of modern children's story."

They have a mixed legacy, to be sure.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


11 Private Security Firms Guarding Donald Trump
“It is unprecedented,” said one high-level official with knowledge of the Secret Service machinations. “The apparatus surrounding Mr. Trump is extensive to the point of looking dysfunctional.”

And the dysfunction is glaring. The Trump campaign first told me that all questions regarding security should be directed to the Secret Service. But the Secret Service told me that Trump’s private security is considered campaign staff, and so any questions about them would have to be answered by the campaign. The campaign, informed of this, replied, “no comment.” Further requests for comment were met with a slightly wordier but no more helpful reply: “We have no comment on security personnel and procedures.”
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Some New York Times hypothetical penance-seeking: NY Times Editor Said He'd Risk Jail To Publish Trump's Taxes
posted by palindromic at 12:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


All I can say is Implacable Nemesis has been awfully slow to answer my prayers.
posted by whuppy at 12:22 PM on September 12, 2016


I inherited an old hardback copy, and will attest that, being written entirely in the Gullah dialect, can be quite difficult to parse unless read out loud, for example:

He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho’s you born—Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool ’im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got ’im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w’at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot ’er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn’t hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin’ down de road—lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity—dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin’ ’long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz ’stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


DDale: "This is a list of things Trump said in one interview on CNBC this morning."

Donald Trump gave an interview this morning that should be shocking — but we’re numb
Donald Trump went on CNBC this morning, and, over the course of a wide-ranging interview, once again reminded the world of the most fundamental fact about his candidacy — he doesn’t really seem to understand any aspect of American public policy.
posted by peeedro at 12:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Just to complete the thought on Song of the South, the movie is based on a series of folk tales written by a white Southern dude based on his experiences being told the tales while growing up with slaves (though not owning them). On the one hand, these are real folk tales, and this is one of the few written representations of lost (erased) African culture. On the other hand, they are presented in the worst possible context: rewritten by a slavery apologist to serve his own nostalgic gloop glop.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [42 favorites]


DDale: "This is a list of things Trump said in one interview on CNBC this morning."

Wow. Well, I'm quite sure that the media will do their due diligence and follow-up on all of those, right? I mean, Clinton is in the doghouse for not being transparent enough with her health, surely the media will take Donald to task for his propensity to obfuscate, distort, and outright lie? Daniel seemed a little upset yesterday that the media got criticized for the coverage of Clinton's health, so I'm sure he won't let this opportunity go by to show that they apply the same level of scrutiny to both candidates.

[sorry if I dripped too much sarcasm into the thread]
posted by nubs at 12:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Please commit this list of permanently litigated topics to memory:

Can we also get a list of ongoing in jokes? The Steves and Merediths coming in could use a refresher.
posted by numaner at 12:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Well, I'm quite sure that the media will do their due diligence and follow-up on all of those, right?

The gist of the Yglesias article peedro linked to is that while much of that interview would be huge news in a normal election cycle, the media will basically give Trump a pass because Trump being an ignorant racist isn't news.
posted by Gelatin at 12:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Meredith will write the list
posted by TwoWordReview at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


I met someone new this weekend who was named Steve and caught myself right before I said, "Christ, not another one."

This election, man.
posted by Tevin at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


Just to complete the thought on Song of the South, the movie is based on a series of folk tales written by a white Southern dude based on his experiences being told the tales while growing up with slaves (though not owning them). On the one hand, these are real folks tales, and this is on of the few representations of lost (erased) African culture. On the other hand, they are presented in the worst possible context: rewritten by a slavery apologist to serve his own nostalgic gloop glop.

Even after writing all of those stories, Harris never realized that he wasn't the rabbit in the story; he was the fox.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I gotta say, as long as he's nowhere near being able to command any military forces, I kinda like NGAF Lindsey Graham.

I gotta say, as long as he doesn't apologize for being a Clinton impeachment manager, I'll never really like Lindsey Graham.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Being a filthy foreigner gives me a sense of how politics manifests itself differently from place to place. My dad (old Labour, in his seventies) was a very firm Brexit voter, but he thinks that Trump is, I quote, "a nutter."

The craziest bit from the past week for me has been the "if I don't get the uuuuugest welcoming party I'll fly AF1 straight out." He really thinks the job entails being an imperial potentate who will rain down favour and disfavour based precisely upon the amount of toadying he receives.
posted by holgate at 12:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


I won't say I like Lindsey Graham, but I do have a soft spot for him for voting to confirm Sotomayor and Kagan.
posted by zutalors! at 12:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Is it confirmation bias at work, or are conservatives really a whole lot more into fake charities and lies about charitable giving?

I'm asking because I remember Rush Limbaugh (never forget, in addition to being a drug addicted drug warrior, he's also almost certainly raped children), Donald Trump, and Palin all had fake charities or other lies about charities going on.

Am I just not noticing similar shenanigans among liberals, or are conservatives really doing more fake charity stuff?

On the Song of the South topic, officially Song of the South takes place post-war and none of the characters are slaves. Just really, really, super duper happy, to be submissive servants to their vastly superior white owners, er, employers.

It's also in a weird place because on the one hand Disney wants everyone to forget it exists, they've never released it on DVD and they're vicious about seeking out any pirated copies of the limited VHS release, it's also the basis of one of their more popular rides.
posted by sotonohito at 12:35 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


What happens if Trump realizes his outlandish antics no longer get him news time? Does he ratchet up the crazy rhetoric? Clinton gets sick(the outrage!) and takes away his screen time. If that continues, what's his next play, if any?
posted by Twain Device at 12:35 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've gone a whole 16 hours without following the election or the election threads. Which is a new record for me. Someone let me know when the news cycle moves on from the CLINTON DEATHWATCH so my panic level doesn't cause an explosion.

JCPL: limbo
posted by Justinian at 12:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


He hasn't said anything about her being sick yet has he? I find that weird.
posted by zutalors! at 12:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


What happens if Trump realizes his outlandish antics no longer get him news time?

To put it mildly, I don't think that's likely.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Said of North Korea: "We should get China to fix that problem."

Oooooh well, then! Why had no one thought of this before?!

(Protip: China would looooove to not have Kim Jong-Un as an ally, and would also love to not have North Korean refugees entering China all the time. I'm sure they're all ears about your undoubtably brilliant plan, Donald.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:41 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


He hasn't said anything about her being sick yet has he? I find that weird.

Per Wonkette: Donald Trump Flirts With Appearance Of Decency In Reaction To Hillary Clinton’s Death Pneumonia:
Now here’s an actual man-bites-dogwhistle story! On Fox-n-Friends Monday, Donald Trump actually managed not to mock Hillary Clinton’s pneumonia, mostly. New York magazine’s Eric Levits described the phone interview as a “shocking display of human decency”:

“I just hope she gets well, and gets back on the trail, and we’ll be seeing her at the debate,” said Trump, which sounds like a bit of a change from weeks of “she doesn’t have the strength or stamina to take on ISIS, take their oil, bomb the shit out of them, and build a wall” crap he’s been playing off.

Of course, that was prefaced by the usual Trumpian suggestion that maybe the reality is far, far worse:
I see what I see. The coughing fit was a week ago, so I assume that was pneumonia also, I would think it would have been, so something’s going on.
posted by palindromic at 12:41 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/12/donald-trump-health-report-records-release

All I've seen is this article, which is a subdued response.
posted by nubs at 12:42 PM on September 12, 2016


I've gone a whole 16 hours without following the election or the election threads.

Justinian a whole lot of polls came out today yesterday and Hillary is now trending up in the 538 Polls Plus again.

posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary is now trending up in the 538 Polls Plus again.

Sez who?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


I honest to God don't know why my class of mostly eighteen year olds aren't freaking out about this election. I imagine Year 15 of TrumpGod, and those once young ones would be like *oh that's why that weird teacher's eyes were protruding*

I was insanely political when I was that age. I guess I'm weird? My students are like, Trump's racist, but they don't really seem to care that much. And these aren't affluent white kids.

I mean it's great that most young ones recognize the Great Orange Peril as being as noxious as projectile vomiting on the subway, but why aren't they like *did you see how pink and chunky that vomit was and did you smell it and what is happening*

Maybe this is my limitation. It is, actually, I'm turning this comment around and sending it home. I am a white person and I grew up with children of college instructors in an affluent small town. We thought Reagan was the devil and we were going to die in a nuclear holocaust and fuck it's all so awful and big but we affluent white people CAN CHANGE THE SYSTEM MAN

My students come from a very different place. Chalk this up as one white person who suddenly is like *oh maybe I don't understand racism because I'm a fucking white person*
posted by angrycat at 12:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


ABC News:
• Trump was "shocked" and "alarmed" at Clinton's terrible, terrible basket-of-deplorables comments
• "She revealed herself to be a person who looks down on the proud citizens of our country as subjects for her rule. She views it as her rule."
• "If Hillary Clinton will not retract her comments in full, I don't see how she can credibly campaign any further."

So basically "basket of deplorables" is such a heinous thing to say, and shows such contempt for American voters, that Clinton should immediately cease running for President.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 12:48 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Get back in your happy place just for another 24 hours or so, Justinian. I'm sure by then Trump'll have offended...

...er, I can't think of any broadly sympathetic demographic that he hasn't already offended but anyway I am sure he will find some yet-undiscovered group to be gratuitously stupid at, any moment now....
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:49 PM on September 12, 2016


Sez who?

Some guy named "Thepols, Allofem"
posted by Twain Device at 12:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


"Subjects for her rule" (more projection)
"I'm the king of ____" (help)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary's biggest problem is that she doesn't sell herself enough.

Probably because if you're a woman and you even mention your accomplishments people will smash you down like the wrath of god for being arrogant and stuck-up.
posted by winna at 12:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [56 favorites]


...er, I can't think of any broadly sympathetic demographic that he hasn't already offended

When does Trump running the attack ad on himself start?
posted by Francis at 12:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


My students are like, Trump's racist, but they don't really seem to care that much. And these aren't affluent white kids.

I had some uncle time this weekend driving my 15 year old nephew and some of his teammates home from football practice. I asked what they thought of Trump and and all four kids simultaneously said a version of "that guy is racist." No hesitation. I asked about Clinton and there were shrugs, one kid said she seemed nice.
posted by peeedro at 12:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


re: Br'er Rabbit. That extract posted above reminded me how glad I am that writing in dialect has gone out of favor. It's just annoying.
posted by maggiemaggie at 12:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


I honest to God don't know why my class of mostly eighteen year olds aren't freaking out about this election.

When I taught at a regional school for affluent locals who were academically unimpressive, I found getting them to care about politics and ethics really really difficult. Except for the ones who were already activist oriented or believed Obama was, in fact, a Kenyan Candidate secret muslim, everyone else was just like "uh i dunno i guess that stuff matters, will this be on the final?"

If anything I think it's because Obama managed to not fuck anything up too bad, and at the same time was unable to push through any huge reforms. So they've gone through most of their cognizant lives with a political system in which people yell at each other a lot but nothing seems to happen. It's numbing.
posted by dis_integration at 12:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]




I like that Howard Dean, he tells it like it is.
posted by zutalors! at 12:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Wait, Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has racist origins? My dad used to sing that all the time, and I find myself singing it myself occasionally. Guess I'll have to watch that. #theregoesmychildhood
posted by rabbitrabbit at 12:57 PM on September 12, 2016


dis_integration, the Affordable Care Act was a huge reform.
The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act was a huge reform.
The repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was a huge reform.
The first-ever LGBTQ-inclusive Violence Against Women Act re-authorization was a huge reform.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


I honest to God don't know why my class of mostly eighteen year olds aren't freaking out about this election.

A few of my Girl Scouts have (Mexican) immigrant parents and all of them have either grandparents or extended family who are immigrants, and those kids, all still nearly a decade away from voting age, mind you, are actively engaged (and freaking out). (But how could they not be? One of the candidates is targeting their families.) It simultaneously breaks my heart and fills me with hope for their generation.
posted by phunniemee at 1:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Wait, Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has racist origins?

When I was a kid (being a kid of bridged upper-middle class and lower-middle class families that hung out with extended family usually on the lower-middle class side) eeny, meeny, miny, moe was quite happily followed up with "catch a n----r by the toe".

In Perth, Western Australia. About as far as you can get from the United States and Dixie on this planet. None of us had a fucking clue what it was or what it meant. But hey, that's how it was said.

Now I look back on it and think "oh shit, what the fuck were we doing. We were so fucking ignorant".
posted by Talez at 1:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


ANECDATA: As you can probably guess, I'm pretty politically active on Facebook. But a lot of my friends are not overtly political on there. But the last few days people I've never seen make political posts have been posting things defending Clinton/mocking Trumpsters on the deplorables and health scare tactics. I hope the change means maybe a dam has broke.

Or maybe Facebook just changed their algorithm.
posted by chris24 at 1:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


DDale: 'This is a list of things Trump said in one interview on CNBC this morning.'
  • Called Sen. Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas"
  • Claimed with no evidence that Fed Chair Janet Yellin is manipulating monetary policy to help Obama, said she "should be ashamed of herself"
  • Said the Fed, the FBI and the Department of Justice are "obviously" no longer independent
  • Alleged with no evidence that the presidential debates will be "rigged" and said there should be no moderator
  • Falsely claimed his schedule been busier than Clinton's" "There's not a contest"
  • Claimed with no evidence that Iranian sailors are making "crude gestures" at American soldiers
  • Claimed with no evidence that British people "call me Mr. Brexit"
  • Said, "I'm the king of illegal immigration. I will stop it"
  • Falsely claimed Clinton wants "open borders"
  • Said he would turn Air Force One around and fly home if top officials from a foreign country weren't at the airport to greet him
  • Said of North Korea: "We should get China to fix that problem"
  • Falsely claimed he is leading in the polls
  • Falsely claimed he has visited "numerous" black communities other than Philadelphia and Detroit
posted by kirkaracha at 1:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


I'm waiting to hear your compliments about Kim, you racist fuckwit. Somehow I don't expect they're forthcoming, given that he's not white and doesn't line your pockets, unlike Putin.

Wellll.... he did get points for being a brutal dictator, but points deducted for not being white ("It's a cultural thing"!) and not having deep, New York real-estate interested pockets:
Trump, Jan. 9: If you look at North Korea – this guy, he’s like a maniac, OK? And you have to give him credit. How many young guys — he was like 26 or 25 when his father died — take over these tough generals, and all of a sudden — you know, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it. How does he do that? Even though it is a culture and it’s a cultural thing, he goes in, he takes over, and he’s the boss. It’s incredible. He wiped out the uncle. He wiped out this one, that one. I mean, this guy doesn’t play games. And we can’t play games with him. Because he really does have missiles. And he really does have nukes.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Obama ... was unable to push through any huge reforms.

I can see how it would look that way to 18 year olds (which is what you were talking about), but Obamacare was a huge reform.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:05 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Is it confirmation bias at work, or are conservatives really a whole lot more into fake charities and lies about charitable giving?

There are two different strands here. A lot of it comes down to how 501(c)(3) status is pretty easily obtained and loosely defined, far more so than charitable status in the UK, and how charitable giving is handled as a donor deduction in the US, compared to Gift Aid in the UK where the tax-free distribution is administered by HM Treasury.

If you look at the Tampa Bay Times's "America's Worst Charities" investigation (and the CIR's companion site), you'll see the same areas show up again and again: veterans, cops, firefighters, sick children, cancer. There's definitely a continuum between the worst abusers of charitable status and the right-wing bulk mail rackets that Rick Perlstein describes in "The Long Con".

Then there's the NYC elite thing where charitable giving is extensive and legitimate but deeply tied to the social calendar and status-signalling. The price of admission to galas and openings and big events is a hefty pledge. Except Trump appears to be very good at reneging on those pledges, which pisses off the NYC actually-ultrarich, and when he does pledge and the Foundation delivers (with other people's money), the recipients are often either small organisations where TrumpFound is the main beneficiary, or orgs with questionable fundraising practices.
posted by holgate at 1:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


A few of my Girl Scouts have (Mexican) immigrant parents and all of them have either grandparents or extended parents who are immigrants, and those kids, all still nearly a decade away from voting age, mind you, are actively engaged (and freaking out). (But how could they not be? One of the candidates is targeting their families.) It simultaneously breaks my heart and fills me with hope for their generation.

Oh absolutely. Even a young kid can get fired up about politics pretty quickly when one of the candidates is saying in plain language that he'd like to send their mom away.

I was watching some election coverage in our house when this conversation happened.

"This Trump guy... he doesn't like immigrants?"
"No."
"And Mom's an immigrant?"
"Yep."
"That's... NOT NICE. I don't like that guy."

The hard part is watching him struggle and fail to find exactly the words to say how he feels. Because I can tell from the look on his face that the words he can't find are "FUCK THIS GUY." Even now that his mom is a citizen, it's not that hard for him to make the leap that it could have been her Trump was talking about.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


Another week where I will write the NPR ombudsman a grumpy letter berating them for their double standards and terrible coverage.
posted by humanfont at 1:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


kirkaracha: Said, "I'm the king of illegal immigration. I will stop it"

Stop being the king if illegal immigration? Thanks, that should help!

Or do you mean the king of stopping illegal immigration?

And how does one become king of either thing/realm? Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Said he would turn Air Force One around and fly home if top officials from a foreign country weren't at the airport to greet him

Pretty sure this one is true.
posted by Artw at 1:09 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


that's...
that's [fake], right?

it's gotta be.

even in context.


Nope, context makes it worse:
Trump, Jan. 9: If you look at North Korea – this guy, he’s like a maniac, OK? And you have to give him credit. How many young guys — he was like 26 or 25 when his father died — take over these tough generals, and all of a sudden — you know, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it. How does he do that? Even though it is a culture and it’s a cultural thing, he goes in, he takes over, and he’s the boss. It’s incredible. He wiped out the uncle. He wiped out this one, that one. I mean, this guy doesn’t play games. And we can’t play games with him. Because he really does have missiles. And he really does have nukes.
Yes, he's praising Kim Jong-Un for barbaric murders that were happening at the rate of one senior officer per week last year.

Yup, I'd call that psycho a real boss.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


RealClearPolitics: The Comprehensive Case Against Donald Trump -- Point by point refutation of the moderate conservative belief that Trump, despite his obvious flaws will be better for their issues than Hillary. Essentially why mainstream Republicans should hold their nose and vote for Hillary. Great for sharing with stuffy dads. By one of Romney/Bush IIs speechwriters.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:15 PM on September 12, 2016 [44 favorites]


Wait, Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah has racist origins? My dad used to sing that all the time, and I find myself singing it myself occasionally. Guess I'll have to watch that. #theregoesmychildhood
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:57 PM on September 12


Eponysterical.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:15 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


> I can't think of any broadly sympathetic demographic that he hasn't already offended

He hasn't weighed in on the pipeline protest, has he?
posted by morganw at 1:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


My favorite response to the double standard of male vs female health issues vis a vis one's ability to be president was from a comment on a friend's facebook post. I quote:

"Remember when Trump deferred the draft because his foot hurt?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


I was up in the North Carolina mountains last summer for a family reunion (fucking beautiful country out there, btw, and that's coming from a guy who really doesn't like to leave cities much) and saw bootleg copies of Song of the South being sold in the hotel gift shop. I took pictures and sent Disney an email; I have no idea if anything became of it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


> that's...
that's [fake], right?

it's gotta be.

even in context.

[sigh]

I know unreality has been a running theme of the last year or so but since early this morning I have been trying to think of things that could happen within the realm of possibility that will still be able to surprise me in this election cycle and I'm coming up way short.

I can't think of any. Not one. Like - Donald Trump preemptively declares war on China? Wouldn't be surprised. Hilary Clinton is attacked for donating too much money to charity? It's already happened. Donald Trump literally kicks a baby but still gets a pass because the baby gave DJT the stinkeye? Nobody likes babies anyway!

Probably it's a lack of imagination but, honestly, short of Jesus Christ coming down from the heavens and looking around like "oh man everyone, really?" there's not anything that could get more than a raised eyebrow and even then I'd be like "Yeah JayCee it's about time you showed," and then comment on one of these threads like "Oh, so NOW Jesus decides to show up."

Nothing is real any more.
posted by Tevin at 1:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I have to think a guy who makes "Pocahontas" jokes isn't going to have good things to say about the pipeline protesters. He thinks the Washington Racial Slurs should keep their name.
posted by emjaybee at 1:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]






He hasn't weighed in on the pipeline protest, has he?

Not on the pipeline, but he has a lot of previous with Native Americans. He sued to stop tribal casinos in the early 90s opening in competition with his properties in Atlantic City, saying that "[o]rganized crime is rampant on Indian reservations", and a few years later bankrolled a dirty tricks campaign (run by Roger Stone, but with personal input from Trump) against one seeking to open in upstate NY.
posted by holgate at 1:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I am very clear on how problematic "Song of the South" is as a text, yet I have never been able to shake my admiration for the story of the Tar-Baby because it's so true.

My whole life I have seen problems that only get worse the more people try to fight them, and I have yet to hear of a better name. (Suggestions welcome if they do not constitute a derail!)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


And if Trump is elected it will be just like Brexit - hate crimes and hate speech legitimated in the minds of our garbage citizens. I'm worried even if he loses, of course, but it will be worse if he wins.

I just really hate this world right now. Every time I think to myself "yes, this is an ugly country built on racism" something else even worse happens that shows that many white people actively yearn for the return of formalized, legally sanctioned racism and the minute that it looks like we could go back there, they're all in. This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity.
posted by Frowner at 1:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


The New Yorker's afternoon cartoon is markedly better. At least it accurately reflects my state of mind.
posted by The Bellman at 1:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


The Remus stories are one (kinda complicated) thing. Song of the South sixty years later is another. Song of the South re-released forty years after that or Song of the South now is just...
posted by atoxyl at 1:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I just read the Real Clear Politics argument against Trump.

I don't understand how 44% of this country this is scumbag reflects their values. He literally has no positive personality traits, and leaves a trail of slime and corruption wherever he goes.

I just don't understand how fully almost half of this country has lost their minds.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Oh, and Trump ended his speech today with "We will be one people, under one God."

So he's got the "ein Volk" down and I guess is going with "ein Gott" instead of "ein Reich" or "ein Republik," but we're still waiting for him to formally announce the "ein Fuhrer" part?

Honestly "Ein Volk, ein Gott, ein Fuhrer" seems even creepier to me than the original, so congratulations, dude, you've out-creepied the NSDAP.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:34 PM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


As I suspected in the last thread, some of Asheville's private parking lots have joined the campaign.
posted by holgate at 1:34 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


11 Private Security Firms Guarding Donald Trump

You know who else had his own private "security force"?
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity.

My unpopular opinion that Anne Frank was completely wrong grows more popular by the day.
posted by chonus at 1:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


You know who else had his own private "security force"?

San Francisco International Airport!
posted by Talez at 1:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


As I suspected in the last thread, some of Asheville's private parking lots have joined the campaign.

Again, Asheville? Is he going to Portland next? Williamsburg? Silver Lake?
posted by leotrotsky at 1:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Regarding "Song of the South," let's all remember this little tidbit regarding James Baslett and his honorary Oscar, as shared on IMDB:
"He did not attend the premiere of "Song of the South" in Atlanta because as an African American he would not have been allowed to participate in any of the festivities in that racially segregated city."
So, yeah.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


wenestvedt, perhaps Mythical Man Month?
posted by Yowser at 1:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


You Think This Is A Goddamn Game?

by Hillary Clinton [fake]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't understand how 44% of this country this is scumbag reflects their values. He literally has no positive personality traits, and leaves a trail of slime and corruption wherever he goes.

I have the same reaction; it is an absolute mystery to me how anyone can vote for this man, much less admire him. I can wrap my mind around why one would vote for Romney or McCain. Hell, I can even wrap my mind around why someone would vote for Ted Cruz. But Trump? No. He's a liar, he's corrupt, he's vulgar, he's stupid, he's inarticulate. But people do admire him. I guess, if nothing else, it serves as a good reminder that there are many people whose entire lives will just be utterly beyond my ken in every way. And vice versa, of course.
posted by holborne at 1:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


The Remus stories are one (kinda complicated) thing. Song of the South sixty years later is another.

I actually had an Ask I was going to post about this -- We were just at Disney World, and Splash Mountain is still based around the SOTS animal characters. And my 7-year-old wanted to know what the movie was about. And I explained that it was a movie that people don't watch anymore because when Disney made it, people didn't understand that some of what they thought was fun or funny really wasn't funny to a whole lot of people - and we talked a bit about slavery and racism. But I also told him the Briar Patch story. When I was growing up, we had a Disney collection of the stories that as I recall didn't have the framing device of Uncle Remus at all - it was just the animal stories. It was in "dialect," so I already know that's pretty problematic, but something you can get around if you read out loud and are careful about it. But are the actual animal stories racist? I thought they came from slave narratives, and only the framing (and the dialect) was the issue. Or was I just too young to catch it?
posted by Mchelly at 1:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity.

My unpopular opinion that Anne Frank was completely wrong grows more popular by the day.


May I direct you both to the writings of Xunzi?

When I took my Chinese philosophy course lo those maaaany years ago, and read Xunzi, I was like, this guy gets me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:48 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]






Jinx, r317!
posted by stolyarova at 1:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just to complete the thought on Song of the South, the movie is based on a series of folk tales written by a white Southern dude based on his experiences being told the tales while growing up with slaves (though not owning them). On the one hand, these are real folks tales, and this is on of the few representations of lost (erased) African culture. On the other hand, they are presented in the worst possible context: rewritten by a slavery apologist to serve his own nostalgic gloop glop.

Really, The Song of the South, and Uncle Remus stories are a little more complicated than this thread it making it seem. Sticking to the movie, it is set after the civil war about a family that is essentially fleeing to a plantation due to the father's writing about strife in the post war era. The suggestion is that the "strife" is related to racial violence which the father is standing against and that the mother is opposed to his stance and wants to get away from that environment. (This is an echo of Joel Chandler Harris' career as a journalist who wrote about race relations during the post war era.) The father drops off his family at the plantation of the grandmother, I forget if its his mother or his wife's but I suspect the latter) and he then goes back to continue his work.

The movie then primarily follows his son Johnny who is upset about not being able to go with his father until he makes friends with Uncle Remus, and a young girl named Ginny, the daughter of white sharecroppers. Ginny's brothers make all sorts of trouble for Johnny and are suggested as racists as is their father, Ginny and her mother are somewhat trapped by this since they don't share that view but the brothers, and perhaps the father are abusive, so they have to keep their feelings to themselves, its suggested. In contrast to that relationship is the warm and caring one shown by Uncle Remus for Johnny, even though Johnny's mother does not approve of them spending time together. Uncle Remus relays the stories of B'rer Rabbit to Johnny in order to help him deal with his father's absence and Ginny's violent brothers.

During Johnny's birthday party, Johnny leaves to find Ginny and they end up in a scrape with her brothers ruining her party dress, causing Johnny to stay with Ginny rather than return to his party. Uncle Remus resolves the situation and eventually takes Johnny home. The mother blames Uncle Remus for the incident and forbids contact with Johnny causing Uncle Remus to leave the plantation for Atlanta. Johnny chases after him, is gored by a bull, and only recovers when Uncle Remus comes back.

The movie is clearly invested in making Uncle Remus the most sympathetic and significant character in the film, he isn't any more a caricature than any of the other characters. The problem though, and fitting for some of the other discussion topics in the thread, is that the tone of the movie and its politics come across as "liberal paternalism" where the plight of Ginny and the character of Uncle Remus are shown via an attitude of condescension. This is most clear in the relationship between Uncle Remus and the grandmother who was seemingly a slave owner before the war and now has replaced the slaves with sharecroppers and/or hired hands. Her attitude towards Uncle Remus is that of a rightful better, she respects Uncle Remus, but from a place that isn't as an equal, and that's the tone of the movie overall. It means well in a way, but its handling of race is stuck in a different time via Hollywood history of skirting meaningful dialogue on the issue even in most of its the best intended films. The movie also suggests a sort of mitigation of the impact of slavery by Uncle Remus and others relationship with the grandmother and attitudes towards their station.

The stories of Uncle Remus and the author of the books that related those stories have been charged with paternalism as well, even as they have also been acclaimed by some significant members of the black community. The folklore presented is believed to have come from slaves and is invaluable in its recounting since it would likely have been lost otherwise. The film like the books received both praise and condemnation at the time for some of the reasons listed above as well as simply for being too vague about the time and setting of the story, by leaving much of the information to implication rather than being stated explicitly inattentive viewers could mistake the film for being set during slavery rather than after it making the Uncle Remus character seem a slavery apologist. The vagueness is likely intentional as a way to not push too hard and lose sales in some communities so the criticism is more than fair in that regard.

In the context of today the film is unquestionably outdated in its attitudes, and thus understandably perceived as racist in a way, even though the intent was somewhere closer to the opposite. Thinking of the film in light of others of its time, it isn't entirely noteworthy for its implications, but it would have been comparatively welcome children's fare I would think given how little significant racial mixing was onscreen during that era. I can't say how people should judge the film today or if they should see it, since that question is too fraught with interfering complications to be answered meaningfully, but I'll say I didn't find it particularly offensive myself when compared to so many other things I've seen including things from recent years. YMMV.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [58 favorites]


Song of the South re-released forty years after that or Song of the South now is just...

Maybe this is a minority opinion, but I actually think Disney needs to re-release Song of the South. Not to theaters, but rather for home and institutional viewing. I think it should go hand in hand with an exhaustive third-party documentary commissioned by the studio to look back at the sources of the film, its production, and its legacy. I think they should take their lumps and allow ample space for commentators to explain in detail — under the Disney imprimatur — why and how the film is a document of racist attitudes, and how it perpetuated racist ideas. I think when you press Play you should be greeted with an unskippable video introduction in which a respected personage briefly explains the film's problematic nature. I imagine that it would be difficult for studio bosses, even at this late date, to approve anything that explicitly aligns the Disney brand with racist ideas, even unconscious ones. (Not Uncle Walt!) But still, if they could manage it, I think Song of the South in its proper context could be a powerful tool for learning and teaching. And there are some demons there that need to be exorcised.
posted by Mothlight at 1:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


Potomac Avenue: Donald Trump fans have been sending me racist, hateful messages for months. Here's a sampling

Direct link to Cleveland.com article
For 15 years, my ethnic last name has appeared above all of my stories. Which means, for 15 years, some readers have judged me only by that ethnic last name.

I have heard their voice mails and read their emails. Smirked at their keyboard courage in the comments section. Told myself not to take the Twitter mentions too personally.

Call it bigotry. Call it racism. Call it xenophobia. As a writer – especially one who covers national politics – you chalk it up as coming with the territory, as hurtful and as menacing as it can be. This year, though, it is coming far more frequently. There is no mystery why.
...
I realize I am far from the only person whose ethnicity or race has become a focal point for a few critics. I don't want to trivialize the reprehensible prejudice many other minorities endure.

It strikes me, though, that Trump, whether he means to or not, has fostered a hostile moment in our politics when his supporters feel entitled to racially denigrate others.

Sadly, simply being a Gomez is enough to make you a target.

I was born, 35 years ago this week, in Youngstown, Ohio. My mother was born in Youngstown. My father was born in Youngstown. You have to go back four generations – to great-grandparents on both sides of my family – to find relatives born in another country.
I won't include the racial slurs, because you don't really need to see more to know where this goes.

I mostly wanted to quote from it to pull in the phrase "keyboard courage."
posted by filthy light thief at 1:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


The actual stories are mostly allegories about how the enslaved could use soft power and trickery to eke out survival. Similar to Aesop's fables, they use animal characters to conceal their true intent from the powerful.

Also, James Baskett is *excellent* in Song of the South and it's really a pity that the talented African American performers in it are showcased in the way they are.
posted by chrchr at 1:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Come on H, give me something about "paid sick leave" in a tweet and I'll re-tweet it 100 times. (Or once very very loudly.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know who else had his own private "security force"?

Yukio Mishima?
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 1:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Like anyone who’s ever been home sick from work, I’m just anxious to get back out there. See you on the trail soon. -H

More signs that she isn't connected to the common people. The common people would be anxious that they couldn't finish marathoning whatever show they were watching before returning to work!
posted by charred husk at 1:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


holborne A largeish percentage of Trump voters aren't actually for Trump so much as they're against Clinton. To them Trump's downsides are possibly mitagatable, and anyway he'll rubber stamp just about anything the Republican Congress sends his way.

They're looking at getting enough Supreme Court picks over the next four years to assure 30 more years of Republican dominance on the court, the entire Republican wish list of legislation passed, and the opportunity to really thumb their noses at the Democrats.

If, in exchange for that, they also have to take Trump a lot of them see that as a tolerable deal.

Don't forget that the Republicans have been exchanging support of bigots and racists for their economic and social policies since 1968. That Trump is a bit louder and more obnoxious than most is, at worst, a touch embarrassing. But he's nothing new, nothing game changing.

That why there will never be an even this moment. He's running as a Republican that automatically gets him the support, however unenthusiastic, of close to 50% of the country.

Now the True Believers, they're another story, they mostly love his bombast, his racism, his sexism, his xenophobia, his homophobia, his misogyny, and all the other huge panoply of hate he's been making more and more acceptable. But to be a Republican and vote for Trump doesn't require you be a true believer, it just requires you be willing to sacrifice women, minorities, gay people, etc to get a tax cut. And Republicans have been willing to do that since 1968 if not before.
posted by sotonohito at 1:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


You have to think Hillary will be doing nothing on the day of the Gilmore Girls release.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


For everyone who is discussing Song of the South

chrchr posted one of the best articles I have ever read about this movie up above. It discusses a lot of what is also being discussed here in the (fast moving, I know) comments, including the way the ride exists in concert with and yet separate from the movie, and a suggestion that Disney should licence the film to Criterion for a critical release.
posted by anastasiav at 1:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


The common people would be anxious that they couldn't finish marathoning whatever show they were watching before returning to work!

Her next speech is about increasing funding for missing persons investigations, taking guns away from Child Protective Services staff, and slug filters for our water supply.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sadly, simply being a Gomez is enough to make you a target.

But oh, how I'd love to see Trump or his supporters try to pick on Gomez Addams...
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


You Think This Is A Goddamn Game?

by Hillary Clinton [fake]


So we had Obama's Anger Translator, and while I would also enjoy Hillary's own anger translator, I also want to see her Spirit of Excitement. As she mentioned in her second part of Humans in New York:
I’ve learned that I can’t be quite so passionate in my presentation. I love to wave my arms, but apparently that’s a little bit scary to people. And I can’t yell too much. It comes across as ‘too loud’ or ‘too shrill’ or ‘too this’ or ‘too that.’ Which is funny, because I’m always convinced that the people in the front row are loving it.
(quoted in the prior thread by holgate)

I'd love to see her let go and have fun, but I recognize that she can't, for fear of her own Howard Dean Scream (oral history of the Dean Scream from Esquire - it's a good piece IMO). Once she's elected, she can let go a bit, right?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


The inside story of Clinton’s sick day:
Hillary Clinton never lost consciousness, and never stopped talking on her phone — and never put anyone else in danger — after her near swoon at a Sept. 11 memorial on Sunday in New York, according to accounts offered by several people close to the candidate.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]




There was indeed a sketch with Hillary's anger translator, btw. (Do I need to tell you it's NSFW?)
posted by phearlez at 2:03 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


kirkaracha: The inside story of Clinton’s sick day

First I'm sad because there has to be such a detailed report about how Clinton handled her pneumonia, including being around her grandkids only when her doctors told her she wasn't contagious, and secondly I sad because there's a lack of Ferris Bueller's Day Off wacky hijinks and personal realizations.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


nubs: What's deplorable is the media's treatment of Clinton

Too wordy. This is one of the times when a numbered list would have sufficed.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:07 PM on September 12, 2016


I reread ZZ Packer's short story "Brownies"** in prep for a class and I was in fucking tears in fucking DDonuts

*A totally fucking rocking story that examines racism from a child's perspective and is so well done on so many levels that it tears your heart out and you look at your heart lying on the floor and you think *fuckin' damn.*
posted by angrycat at 2:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


But "What's deplorable is the media's treatment of Clinton" does have some good lines:
Trump is a witless man forever at wit’s end. Yet it is Clinton who is judged for her “lack of transparency,” “aloofness” and “cold demeanour.” It would be hilarious if it weren’t so appalling: In less than 60 days, the U.S. nuclear codes could be handed to a man who is so unhinged that, on balance, most Americans wouldn’t trust him with the passwords to their email for fear over what he might type.

Now that is a basket of deplorable.
And as much as I hate the Clinton email non-scandal, I would love to see that poll: "Who would you trust more with your email password, Hillary or Donald?"
posted by filthy light thief at 2:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


So they've gone through most of their cognizant lives with a political system in which people yell at each other a lot but nothing seems to happen. It's numbing.

I think part of this comes from a lack of knowledge and depth of experience that it takes to see how high level decisions and rhetoric connect to the actual issues on the ground in their communities.

I would venture a guess that the connections are more direct for most minorities so people can see those connections from a younger age and that there more issues that impact minorities so they're born with more skin in the game. No pun intended.
posted by VTX at 2:11 PM on September 12, 2016


angrycat: I reread ZZ Packer's short story "Brownies"** in prep for a class and I was in fucking tears in fucking DDonuts

For your reading enjoyment or otherwise, Brownies (31 page PDF, scanned book, from Crystal Shelnutt's webpage, for the Department of English at University of West Georgia, Spring 2014).
posted by filthy light thief at 2:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Again, Asheville? Is he going to Portland next? Williamsburg? Silver Lake?

He previously had August 31st set for a rally and fundraiser in Portland, but was canceled to due to schedule conflicts.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


The inside story of Clinton’s sick day:

Looool that is the most blatantly partisan story I've ever read. I'm on her side and I could feel the sheen of press release through the internet tubes. I don't care of course and I hope "HILLARY ON PHONE WHILE FAINTING" is crawling across the screen on CNN as of right now.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


While looking for a comment on the pipeline protest, I found this:
Continental Resources CEO Harold Hamm, energy adviser to Donald Trump's presidential campaign and potential U.S. Secretary of Energy under a Trump presidency—has announced to investors that oil it obtains via fracking from North Dakota's Bakken Shale basin is destined for transport through the hotly-contested Dakota Access Pipeline.
so ought to be for the pipeline, but the interesting thing will be how offensive he can be mentioning it & how that'll go over. He can't be a fan of Native Americans due to [from the excellent n+1 article The Last Last Summer linked by box in the last thread]
the legalization of Indian tribal and nontribal casinos in Connecticut in the 1990s and in Pennsylvania in the 2000s; after the legalization of tribal casinos in upstate New York in the ’90s and of nontribal casinos in the 2010s
having a disastrous effect on AC casinos.
posted by morganw at 2:16 PM on September 12, 2016


Yep, already in his history "Donald Trump claimed that Indian reservations had fallen under mob control. He secretly paid for more than $1 million in ads that portrayed members of a tribe in Upstate New York as cocaine traffickers and career criminals."
posted by morganw at 2:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Josh Marshall: Wise Up, Folks:
For those still living in the fantasy world where people believe that Donald Trump, a man a man driven by an instinctive belief in control and domination, is a dove or a foreign policy Realist, here's a wake-up call. Trump has chosen James Woolsey as his new foreign policy advisor.

If you're not familiar with him, Woolsey is not only the wildest and most unbridled of neoconservative hawks but one who combines his hawkishness with the most fevered conspiracy theories. Lots of people made up stories about Saddam Hussein having advanced nuclear and biological weapons programs. Woolsey was one of the few, even in the hardest core neoconservative circles, to back a conspiracy theory that held that Saddam was responsible not only for 9/11 but for the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 too. He was also a big backer of a completely inane fever swamp idea that all global terrorism is run by a so called "five families of terrorism.' Yes, the Five Families of Terrorism. Look it up. Also look up Laurie Mylroie.
posted by palindromic at 2:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


[A note on the scanned copy of "Brownies" - the PDF is 9+ mb, to warn you if you're downloading it via a cell phone data connection]
posted by filthy light thief at 2:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


This election has really changed how I think about people. It has moved me from thinking that in general, people are okay underneath to thinking that most people are mostly motivated by the desire to have someone they can hurt with impunity

Every time we have an election, I think of this quote from the movie Chaplin:

Douglas Fairbanks: Charles, you're a foreigner; you're still an outsider. You've never understood this country.
Charlie Chaplin: It's a good country underneath, Doug.
Douglas Fairbanks: No, it's a good country on *top*. Underneath, that's what starts showing when we're scared.
posted by PlusDistance at 2:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


My interpretation was that it would be like me (in a pretty privileged job) feeling ill in the middle of the day and leaving early...to work from home for the afternoon.

She "went home sick" but never really stopped working. And with fucking pneumonia!

If that were me, a 35 year old male who is pretty healthy (according to a recent physical) I would have been in bed for at least the whole day and certainly the next few days after. This all assumes that I had been engaging in my usually, not terribly demanding job and not running for POTUS.
posted by VTX at 2:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Mike Pence won't call David Duke one of the deplorables on CNN.
posted by Talez at 2:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


completely inane fever swamp idea that all global terrorism is run by a so called "five families of terrorism.' Yes, the Five Families of Terrorism. Look it up.

I tried. Gambino, Genovese, Bonanno, Lucchese, and Colombo? My Google-Fu is failing me here.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 2:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Looool that is the most blatantly partisan story I've ever read. I'm on her side and I could feel the sheen of press release through the internet tubes. I don't care of course and I hope "HILLARY ON PHONE WHILE FAINTING" is crawling across the screen on CNN as of right now.

Wait until the real truth comes out. In one day away from the campaign, Clinton:
  • Borrowed a vintage Ferrari
  • Visited the Metropolitan Museum of Art
  • Went to the observation deck Empire State Building
  • Visited the New York Stock Exchange
  • Watched some baseball
  • Participated in a parade
  • Snuck into a posh restaurant pretending to be Babe Froman, "Sausage Queen of NY," while narrowly avoiding her husband who was dining at the same restaurant
[fake]
posted by peeedro at 2:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [50 favorites]


I'm v pleased at all the empty spaces.

And the crappy stage/podium configuration. The roller derby has a better setup.
posted by holgate at 2:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


And is a better show, because despite all the bashing of opponents during the event, everyone shakes hands at the end and probably ends up chatting over beers.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Presidential Health is a Historically Tricky Topic.


There's Taylor, there's Tyler, there's Fillmore and there's Hayes,
There's William Henry Harrison-
I died in thirty days!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


Talez: Mike Pence won't call David Duke one of the deplorables on CNN.

I wonder what cabinet position Donny has picked for David. Or maybe he's just an advisor for the transition?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hillary could give "Ebola Doctor" Dr. Craig Spencer a run for his money.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:34 PM on September 12, 2016


Just got an invite to a rally with Tim Kaine in Ann Arbor tomorrow, so I'm hoping there will be fun field reports to share.
posted by palindromic at 2:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Pence, when asked about Trump's health: "I'll just refer you to the Trump campaign."

He really is running a weird parallel operation.
posted by holgate at 2:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


Another week where I will write the NPR ombudsman a grumpy letter berating them for their double standards and terrible coverage.

And he or she nods in satisfaction that you're still a listener. (Not throwing sones -- much as they suck, I listen too.)
posted by Gelatin at 2:37 PM on September 12, 2016


I wonder what cabinet position Donny has picked for David.

White House Senior Advisor
posted by chonus at 2:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Is Justinian okay?
Wondering about the JPL
Because the (much less astute) AngrycatPL is well you know how Kate McKinnon does her cat's anguished howls when he's bathed it's like that
posted by angrycat at 2:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Gah! I am so feelin' it for Hillary today. I'm miserable. I do not have anything bacterial. My throat is killing me and I am prepping for a presentation I need to make at 10 am tomorrow. I would very much like to go home, but I've been scheduled for 3 months to present this data at this meeting, and if I don't do it tomorrow, my next chance might be November. It sucks being sick in the thick of things. I'm washing hands, drinking fluids and trying to get through tomorrow. Good luck, Hill. I'm feeling your pain.
posted by Sophie1 at 2:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here's the video of Pence avoiding associating Duke with "Deplorable".

Seems less to me that he's avoiding decrying DD and more that he doesn't actually know what Deplorable means.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]




Perhaps now I shall call her Clinton, the Plague Bringer, Third Horseman of the Apocalypse, Slayer of Hairpieces.

Chemtraillary...
posted by y2karl at 2:54 PM on September 12, 2016


Pence isn't going to thread that needle. Rank and file Trump supporters now want to self-identify as "deplorables" whether or not they personally meet the bigotry threshold, and the campaign is going to try and encourage that, but doing so means having to punt on identifying people like Duke as deplorable, not least because it would alienate the deplorables. I think that's why the Clinton campaign chose a ten-dollar word.

Credit, I suppose, to Wolf Blitzer for asking the question. Minimum threshold, really.
posted by holgate at 2:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


are we sure "basket of deplorables" isn't some Bene Gesserit command phrase
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [46 favorites]


If Clinton Beats Trump 60-40%, The DCCC Would Still Fail To Take Back The House

Good thing it's going to be 77 - 23, then.
posted by mikelieman at 3:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Here's the video of Pence avoiding associating Duke with "Deplorable".

"You called him deplorable -- you would call him deplorable..."
"No, I’m not in the name-calling business, Wolf."

This exchange had better get some serious air time. I mean, holy shit. It should not be an agonizing choice for a vice presidential candidate to flatly and vociferously rebuke a former Imperial Wizard of the Goddamn KKK. It's a no-brainer, one-word response: "YES." But The Trump-Pence campaign has gotten itself backed into a corner.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 3:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [57 favorites]


are we sure "basket of deplorables" isn't some Bene Gesserit command phrase

Clinton no longer needs the Weirding Module.
posted by Enemy of Joy at 3:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


It'll get as much air time as Trump's own waffling whenever asked to badmouth the KKK.
posted by Artw at 3:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Good thing it's going to be 77 - 23, then.

That would be awesome, but incredibly unlikely. Would require massive movement in the polls in the next 2 months. She's ahead by something like 3-4 points on average right now, AFAICT.
posted by thefoxgod at 3:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


"No, I’m not in the name-calling business, Wolf."

He was damned if he did, damned if he didn't.

The best he could have done is admit Hillary was right about David Duke, but not all of the rest of their millions of patriotic supporters who know that Donald Trump has their best interests at heart and will fight blah blah blah.
posted by zarq at 3:17 PM on September 12, 2016


'Do we rebuke the KKK? Well, yes - and no. Do we need the votes of white supremacists? Yes. Do we disagree with what they're saying? No.'

[fake]
posted by palindromic at 3:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


"This Trump guy... he doesn't like immigrants?"
"No."
"And Mom's an immigrant?"
"Yep."
"That's... NOT NICE. I don't like that guy."


Trump's own mom was an immigrant. But that is okay: he doesn't like himself very much either.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]




Oh, now I get what's going on at the Civic Center: they're staging it on the long side (think half way in a b-ball court) rather than the end, to fill out the sides for a better shot. Except the wide shot in the live stream shows lots of gaps and empty seats. Doubt they even needed the overflow.

Anyway, the arsehole's up, and a protestor just got ejected.
posted by holgate at 3:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]




RCP has taken her from a solid 272 EV to a solid 209 in just the last few weeks. I don't really like the volatility.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:26 PM on September 12, 2016


Article from GQ, Inside the mind of the undecided voter. Third person down is an anonymous political reporter with a whole lotta privilege,
I cover this stuff every day. So for me, four years of Trump, selfishly, sounds a lot more enticing, just because it's going to be a dumpster fire.
posted by erisfree at 3:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


I cover this stuff every day. So for me, four years of Trump, selfishly, sounds a lot more enticing, just because it's going to be a dumpster fire.

The same asshole who is bragging about his front row seat to the apocalypse will also be the loudest voice screaming about the all new Trump™ Concentration Camps for Journalists in 2018.
posted by zarq at 3:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


Got to admit, my first reaction upon hearing that Clinton had pneumonia was pure bowel loosening terror. This is how the evil alternate timeline starts... when something bad happens to the sure-thing "normal" candidate and the only alternative is an orange nightmare.

Please get better, Ms. Clinton! Rest or do whatever you need.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


The protestor didn't just get ejected - he apparently got choked and punched, too:

@alivitali

A Trump supporter just grabbed a protester by the neck then punched him. Protester escorted out, man stayed.

posted by stolyarova at 3:34 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


RCP has taken her from a solid 272 EV to a solid 209 in just the last few weeks.

RCP has a really high toss-up threshold: it classes PA (C+6.2) as a toss-up, while CO (C+9.7) and MN (C+13) are "lean Clinton".
posted by holgate at 3:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Deplorable!
posted by zachlipton at 3:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


it is an absolute mystery to me how anyone can vote for this man, much less admire him.

Oh man. It's - it's hard, but not impossible.

First, you have to understand that it sucks to be a minority in this country. Whether racial, religious, or ethnic, for two hundred years, it has always sucked to be a minority in this country. People don't have to go looking for examples of how much it sucks to be a minority - it has always been abundantly clear.

Second, that for most of this country's history, the white and white-assimilated majority hasn't just had a narrow majority, they've had a comfortable majority. They have never had to worry that the white assimilated culture wouldn't be prioritized and respected. They've never had to worry that what they said about others would get them fired. They've never had to worry that their kids would be taught gross stuff they didn't believe in in school. They've never had to worry about being automatically excluded from the elite. They always had at least a chance of making good. They've always known that who and what they were would be able to continue forever.

Third, that is gone. That is objectively gone. White people are no longer enough of a majority that a mild majority among white people will swing an election. If 70% of white people all agree on a president - even though Trump's not that guy - they cannot elect him if everyone else votes against them. They cannot guarantee control of government, which means they cannot guarantee the continuation of their culture. And they're already seeing it disappear - in schoolbooks, in laws, in court challenges to things that were normal to them.

This is not, exactly at this point, racism. Wanting your culture to have primacy is a ridiculously common thing. City-bred Dems - folks everyone would think of as good and correct - want to propagate their culture, at the expense of the cultures that they think are wrong. Wanting your culture to continue is not, in itself, racism. And it should be said at this point that these people are very welcoming to white-assimilated people. It's about the culture, not the race. My family, for example, is pretty white-assimilated, though I have complex cultural feels about that. I'm in my thirties, but I can't put on hoop earrings without hearing my father thundering in my ear that Good American Girls Don't Do That. My family has voted Republican since they came. My father goes to Trump rallies and apparently gets no shit.

The part that gets complex is: when you realize that you are a minority, what do you do with your culture? When you realize your culture is slowly being squeezed out, what do you do? Do you fight to maintain pockets of it? Do you fight to make it the national culture? What do you do, short of give up and die?

It's important at this point to note that white people are not oppressed, and probably never will be. But white trad-American culture as it has been is in the process of becoming a dead thing - as other minorities feared, sometimes rightly, that assimilation would do to theirs.

The shoe is on the other foot now, and I think it's unreasonable to expect these people to go quietly into the good night. I think we have to - for our own survival - offer some hope to these people, or they're going to find worse than voting for Trump, which is already bad enough. People in these pockets have been swearing by "The American Way Of Life" for a long time. It's baked deep. If we don't help them, it gets bad. Really bad. The resurgence-of-KKK-during-the-20s bad.

Is it "fair" that the people who have been on top for so long are the ones who need help now? No. But at this point, I care less about what's fair, and more about stopping this country from being torn apart by a new ethnic minority with a deep and burning resentment.
posted by corb at 3:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [85 favorites]


Perfectly willing to call names when asked about Mexicans, blacks, Jews, women and even Jeb Bush, but when asked to condemn a former grand wizard of the KKK Trump and Pence are suddenly not in the name calling business?
posted by humanfont at 3:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [44 favorites]


tl;dr: Wahhhh! Morning in America wouldn't be a 100% white ad anymore!
posted by Talez at 3:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Merch update!

Got my stuff today, a good month and change after ordering. My yard sign is up but... Is it just me or are the legs really short? I might have to construct my own stand for it.

I offered husband one of the two "love trumps hate" buttons and his negatory response had just enough of a sneer to it that I think he can get his own Netflix snacks this week. He scores as woke on many axes but every now and then a little "it's so cute that your lady brain thinks any if this matters" peeks though.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


The shoe is on the other foot now, and I think it's unreasonable to expect these people to go quietly into the good night. I think we have to - for our own survival - offer some hope to these people,...

How is universal healthcare, fair wages for women, less fear of automatic weapons, and ending citizens united not enough of a start?
posted by OHenryPacey at 3:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


I got some merch today as week, ordered during the Dem Convention.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:47 PM on September 12, 2016


I got my GIRLS JUST WANNA HAVE FUN-DAMENTAL RIGHTS tote this weekend! Ordered just after the DNC ended.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


If I were to order a Clinton/Kaine yard sign today, how long would it take before it arrives?
posted by jazon at 3:51 PM on September 12, 2016


How is universal healthcare, fair wages for women, less fear of automatic weapons, and ending citizens united not enough of a start?

I have a rock that keeps tigers away. Sure it's just a stupid rock but I don't see any tigers!

All of this started when us bleeding heart liberals forced America to modernize in the '90s. It all started with Will & Grace and now two men walk down the sidewalk holding hands, kissing each other without the shit being beaten out of them and the straight white male can't get a job that pays more than $9/hour for unskilled work!

If women were in the home, queers were in the closet, blacks were still an underclass white white male hegemony was utterly dominant and went unchecked instead of cracking at the seams these "oppressed" white males would be seen as valued providers able to lead their families. Or so they think. But that horse has long bolted. Trying to stuff immigrants back into Mexico is only going to break things further.
posted by Talez at 3:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm still amused that Hillary's so-called apology for the "deplorables" statement was "I regret saying 'half'-- that was wrong."

Because I get to imagine that she means the correct number is much higher.
posted by zennie at 3:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [49 favorites]


The shoe is on the other foot now, and I think it's unreasonable to expect these people to go quietly into the good night. I think we have to - for our own survival - offer some hope to these people, or they're going to find worse than voting for Trump, which is already bad enough. People in these pockets have been swearing by "The American Way Of Life" for a long time. It's baked deep. If we don't help them, it gets bad. Really bad. The resurgence-of-KKK-during-the-20s bad.

But here's the problem. When we offer hope, in the form of help that would be especially useful to many disaffected white voters, in the form of, say, better health insurance options, a non-trivial number panic and treat it as a communist plot. Same with the reactions to paid family leave, making college more affordable, etc...

In short, it's unclear what kind of "hope" is acceptable that doesn't directly involve a return to the 1950s. Because you're telling me that we have to, whether fairly or not, give people hope or they'll do horrible unspeakable things, yet every credible proposal to make the lives of middle class voters better (drowning the government in a teacup doesn't count as a credible proposal) is dismissed out of hand, so I don't really know where to go with that.
posted by zachlipton at 3:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


(Sorry. I should stay out of an American politics thread, but it's hard to stop with just one post.)

The big problem is that "these people" (impoverished and poor white conservatives) have been sold a line of shit for so long that they don't even know what would help anymore. Republicans take their beliefs, repackage them to be more business friendly, then sell the package back to them as dogma. Single payer health care would do a lot more to help poor people in West Virginia than loosening gun laws, but try getting them to believe it.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


The Pence thing blowing up over not being willing to call David Duke deplorable is why the word was so perfect.
posted by chris24 at 3:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


Here is the video of the protestors being assaulted.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:06 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


'Basket of deplorables' visual aid.
posted by homunculus at 4:09 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


First, corb that is an excellent comment and I'm really glad you made it. Thank you.

This is not, exactly at this point, racism. Wanting your culture to have primacy is a ridiculously common thing. City-bred Dems - folks everyone would think of as good and correct - want to propagate their culture, at the expense of the cultures that they think are wrong. Wanting your culture to continue is not, in itself, racism.

This is the only bit I disagree with. White culture in this country created and maintained its supremacy for centuries through discriminatory, institutionalized racism. You're of course right that it's not racist to want your culture to survive. But after slaughtering legions of non-whites in order to establish colonial settlements, WASP's have quite literally stacked the deck against everyone else in the US since it was founded. We talk a lot about White privilege in these election threads. Personally, I don't think we should be sugar-coating any aspect of how it was achieved or preserved.
posted by zarq at 4:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


I think Clinton's "gaffe" bomb just blew up in Pence's face.
posted by chris24 at 4:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm gonna be so glad when this election campaign is over and I can stop being confused at mentions of RCP's poll numbers. My head keeps going "surely the Revolutionary Communist Party isn't ... *oh*, right, Real Clear Politics".
posted by spaceman_spiff at 4:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Another quote from Jay Smooth's new video is
Empathy does not preclude accountability.
During this election, the commentariat have written oh so many pieces about just who are these Trump supporters, and why they are 'nice' people, and how is it that such 'nice' people could vote to elect the Pope of the Church of Assholes to the Presidency. It's almost as if loving one's children, having some friends, and being reasonably polite to strangers is the benchmark for being a moral person. However, I know people who do all of those things, without actively trying to undermine my human rights.

I'm a bit numb to the requests for empathy for the Trump crowd, when so very few have made any efforts towards accountability. Clinton's opponent is a symptom of a problem with Republican leadership and voter base--specifically, the leadership's promotion of an extant tolerance of hateful, dehumanizing attitudes towards those who are different to the base in order to actualize flawed fiscal policies.

Bottom line is that, I'm empathetic in this case to an extent. I am trying, but at a certain point, I need some recognition from such voters that their movement is really harming people and concrete behavioral changes before my empathy is going to increase much more. I am also furious at Trumpists. Emotions are hard.

corb: People in these pockets have been swearing by "The American Way Of Life" for a long time. It's baked deep. If we don't help them, it gets bad. Really bad. The resurgence-of-KKK-during-the-20s bad.

I'm scared of this too. I feel like a group of very angry people with huge amounts of firepower are holding us hostage. I feel substantially less safe than 12 months ago, so it's hard to feel empathy when some people are doing and saying such frightening things. I hope we can work this out with the least harm possible.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:18 PM on September 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


I am hoping to see a lot of Ds who don't happen to be in bed with pneumonia this week commenting on how racism, sexism, open violence at political events, etc. IS deplorable, and so are the Trump enthusiasts who are members of neo Nazis and other right wing hate groups, and so is the campaign that refuses to repudiate them.

In addition, I think we need to see a whole bunch of people complaining loudly and consistently about how the media is willing to demonize Clinton for daring to get a fairly benign diagnosis without running out to tell us all for a couple of days as dishonest, but absolutely failing to require disclosure from Trump of any tax records, any health records, and any business records in the many instances he has been accused of fraud. Not to mention failing to call him out for repeated 4 Pinocchio whoppers on the campaign trail. Not to mention equating a pretty minor lapse of judgment -- encouraged strongly by a prior Secretary -- regarding email management with a deep, long history of scamming people.

As long as they are complaining about Clinton and her secretiveness, how about also failing to call out Trump for not only not holding pressers, but banning news organizations from covering his events?

Really tired of the double standard here. And Krugman and the Washington Post are right, it is damaging.
posted by bearwife at 4:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


For those of you looking for yard signs: I was just at my local campaign headquarters, and they had a pile of Clinton/Kaine signs (plus down ticket signs, too!), so check there if you're concerned about delivery times. Also, buttons, shirts, and hats, but a much more limited selection than the online store.
posted by miguelcervantes at 4:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think it's important to differentiate between cultural hope and pure economic hope. Even if every single Dem economic policy objectively helped this class of people, it wouldn't address the issue of their way of life dying, and what to do about it.

I wish I had the answers. I don't. Zarq is right that a lot of that way of life came about as a result of racism, even if the desire for its continuance isn't specifically racist, and I plain don't know how to find a way to create a more-egalitarian "trad-American way-of-life". I have ideas, but I'm really just spitballing. Part of it is because it's a culture that's not exactly mine - I just wear its skin sometimes - and part of it is because it's a problem that's really fucking hard.

But I think we have a lot of smart people - both here on Metafilter, and broadly in the country - who might be able to find a solution to the problem if they looked at it from that angle. Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?"
posted by corb at 4:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Wait, so the reason that Pence won't call David Duke deplorable is that the Trump campaign doesn't want to resort to name-calling???? Is that a special rule about how they treat white supremacists, because I don't remember them having any compunction about calling anyone else names.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [49 favorites]


I think the only problem with that is that it's impossible to separate traditional white American culture from the racism that founded it. It's like abolishing the two-party system; that's baked right into the Constitution, racism is baked right into what can be called traditional white American culture.
posted by palomar at 4:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Fahrenthold at the WaPo has a public twitter request to locate two items Trump bought at charity auctions -- a six-foot painting of himself by artist Michael Israel and a football helmet signed by Tim Tebow. The painting went for $20,000 and the helmet for $12,000. In both cases Trump made a show of his charitable donations at the auctions, but the money never came out of Trump's pocket. It came out of the Trump Foundation which Trump hasn't put a dime in since 2008. His charitable contribution, despite all the show for the auction guests, instead came out of the pocket of other donors to the Trump Foundation. He donated nothing.

Now, Fahrenthold is interested in finding the location of these items because they would be evidence of yet more illegal activity by the Trump Foundation.

First off, it is illegal to use your private foundation to purchase items for yourself. This is called self-dealing. The IRS watches this closely because a typical tax scam is to put money into your private foundation tax-free and then to spend it on your own consumption. This is an illegal way to buy stuff with tax-free income.

The only way this would be legal is if Trump purchased the auction items with tax-free charity money and then donated the items to another tax-free charity. But if Trump has put the items on display, say, at one of his hotels or golf courses, then that would not be a charity and the original purchase by the Trump Foundation would be illegal self-dealing. That is why Fahrenthold is asking the public to find the items for him.

But secondly, even if Trump properly donated the items he bought at auction to another charity, he still wouldn't be off the hook. That is because you can only deduct the portion of a payment to a charity auction that is greater than the fair market value of the item. For example if you bid on a $30,000 car and win with a $40,000 bid, you can't deduct the full $40,000 as a charity donation. What you have done is simply purchased a $30,000 car and donated $10,000 more to the charity. Only $10,000 is tax deductible.

Normally you would document this on your IRS Schedule A, taking only correct portion as a deduction. But instead, in each case, Trump paid for the entire auction amount out of the Trump Foundation. The foundation records indicate he is counting 100% of the auction bid as a tax-free donation. That again is tax fraud.

Either way it seems that these auction items that Trump purchased would be tax violations. To speak nothing of the swarminess of Trump publicly pretending to make charity contributions that he never paid for.
posted by JackFlash at 4:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [80 favorites]


The sense of cultural primacy and cultural preservation is inevitably generational. Irish-Americans and other white Catholics went from Al Smith to JFK in 32 years. Three decades after that, white Catholics had been assimilated into conservatism: Scalia and O'Reilly and Giuliani.

White conservatives have had multiple opportunities for outreach to lots of small-c conservative non-whites, but the culture wars and the post-2001 turn against Muslims and the self-identity of the assimilated white conservative base has had a choking point on race since 1964 and the origins of the Southern Strategy.
posted by holgate at 4:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'm going to have to object to "valuing equal human rights" being classified as just a part of my liberal urban culture. My local culture has many eccentricities--we put french fries on sandwiches and despite living in a city with three rivers, we avoid crossing rivers at all costs. If someone passed a law against putting fries on top of salads (yes, we do this too) I'd go to the barricades. But human rights are kind of a different thing and it shouldn't (and isn't, thankfully) just be urban liberals cute little thing like fries in weird places. It's a fundamental necessity of human dignity. No one's dignity is diminished by recognizing the dignity of others. Perceptions to the contrary are not just cultural quirks, they are in opposition to human progress towards our potential as a species.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


I guess that I'm not 100% sure what the traditional American culture that Trump represents is, aside from the shitty racism. I think that cultures change. It's inevitable, and it's certainly been true throughout US history. In 1850, a lot of Americans would say that Protestantism was fundamental to the country's identity and that the influx of Catholics represented an existential crisis. They tried to create a political party and everything, but it didn't matter, because they couldn't stop cultural change. Catholics did change the country's culture, but everyone survived, and now we're a country where it's ok that there are a lot of Catholics. Ultimately, you can't stop change, and you just have to figure out how to accommodate it. I don't think there's any way to give Trump voters what they want, if that's what they want. The US of 2050 is going to be different from the US of 1950, which was different from the US of 1850, etc.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think the only problem with that is that it's impossible to separate traditional white American culture from the racism that founded it.

Ahh, no. It is possible -- you just have to find the strands of American culture that were/are actively anti-racist and progressive and focus on them. There's much to be ashamed of in American culture and history -- and there's much to be proud of. Allow people to keep pride in their identity while they re-evaluate its flaws and work toward improving themselves and their culture.

The alternative is gathering Trumpism.
posted by notyou at 4:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Wow, that video that roomthreeseventeen posted was really something. The only thing good about it is that it's got the abc news watermark on it. Hopefully that actually deplorable behavior will get some airplay and be used as evidence of both the awfulness of the Trump campaign, and to charge that awful man with assault.
posted by Sublimity at 4:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


After clicking on ThePinkSuperHero's link above, my first reaction:

Characterization seems legit... but in what ep did Doctor Who survive ebola?
posted by kythuen at 4:35 PM on September 12, 2016


notyou, what are you defining as traditional white American culture? I mean, if you have to find "strands" of anti-racism and progressivism within a culture, doesn't that indicate that the overall character of the culture is not predominantly anti-racist and progressive? Can we try to remember how significant slavery is to American culture, and how one might even say that traditional white American culture was in fact born from that era?
posted by palomar at 4:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, traditional American culture also maintains that the man must be the head of the household and marriage is not a partnership of equals, which is what makes same-sex marriage so confusing. I don't see how you can reform it of its toxicity without turning it into something like modern American urban culture. I mean, we have this perfectly good culture lying around we could just USE.
posted by rikschell at 4:39 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


What if I think the positive things about American culture include that we've at times been welcoming of immigrants and tolerant of religious diversity? I mean, can I value things about American culture that cause me to oppose Trump?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:41 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


WASP's have quite literally stacked the deck against everyone else

People been on about WASPs from time to time in these threads. Hillary is the WASP candidate in this race...
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


RCP has taken her from a solid 272 EV to a solid 209 in just the last few weeks. I don't really like the volatility.

RCP is extremely conservative in their ratings, they have Virginia and Wisconsin as tossups where both averages are 5%+ and Trump has not won a poll literally on the entire page of results. PA is a tossup at 6.2% Clinton. The same rating as Missouri (Trump +3) and Georgia (Trump +2). Basically they're understating the likelihood of either candidate winning a given state compared to 538, Sabato or PEC.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


She's a Methodist. While that's technically Protestant, WASP generally means Episcopalian, maybe Presbyterian. Methodists are low church rabble rousers, historically speaking.
posted by rikschell at 4:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


all global terrorism is run by a so called "five families of terrorism.' Yes, the Five Families of Terrorism. Look it up.

Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Tremere, Ventrue...
posted by happyroach at 4:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Both candidates are WASPs. Trump is half-Scottish (his mother was born in Scotland) and Presbyterian.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


People been on about WASPs from time to time in these threads. Hillary is the WASP candidate in this race...

Aren't they both kinda? Sure, Clinton might be more closer in temperament and values to the traditional American WASP leader.
posted by atoxyl at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016


Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?"

That's really hard, because it's so profoundly tied to mobility: socioeconomic mobility, yes, but also the basic capacity for people and goods and services and jobs and capital to move. I'm sure that a lot of Trump voters have parents or grandparents who uprooted themselves, but they themselves feel rooted while mobility happens around them.
posted by holgate at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


corb: "Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?""

I think you're right that this is separate from economics, but it should probably be separate from politics too. It should be a cultural movement with books and movies and websites and the like that exemplify what that group aspires to be. A true bottom-up cultural movement is something the right really needs to develop on its own, independent from interest groups like evangelical Christians and Libertarian billionaires.
posted by Kevin Street at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Meh. I think that WASP is actually a pretty meaningless term at this point. "Anglo-Saxon" isn't really a thing in modern America. I don't think that having German ancestry is politically or socially significant in modern America.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


oops yeah - see the comment above me. Yeah his dad's name is German but that's not too far off anyway.
posted by atoxyl at 4:54 PM on September 12, 2016


Well, Tim Kaine isn't a WASP.

Where was this heading?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


That too. German-Americans are fully "white" at this point, I don't think they're treated/considered any differently than British-Americans.

WASP now basically is just WP (white and protestant). Catholics aren't too far off these days, but White and Protestant is still probably the most privileged subset. Few people split hairs about which denomination of Protestant you are or which European country your ancestors were from (as long as you look white).
posted by thefoxgod at 4:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


During this election, the commentariat have written oh so many pieces about just who are these Trump supporters, and why they are 'nice' people, and how is it that such 'nice' people could vote to elect the Pope of the Church of Assholes to the Presidency. It's almost as if loving one's children, having some friends, and being reasonably polite to strangers is the benchmark for being a moral person. However, I know people who do all of those things, without actively trying to undermine my human rights.

"Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night,
may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright."


For years, part of the insidious thing about racism is that its most overt, awful displays happened in the dark - often under a hood. White men who wanted to murder and terrify everyone else but maintain a veneer of respectability during the day - or at least shield themselves from the consequences of actions that they knew to be wrong. I suspect even these horrible people would have claimed that they weren't racist - the same reason a murderer would say they weren't a murderer. Because they were lying.

I think as racism has had less and less legal protection (as Jim Crow laws were ruled illegal), racists feel less and less cover for their racism. They want to go on being able to have institutional support for their racism during the day so they can feel better for the things they do in the dark corners of the internet.

This is the thing that worries me about the "secret Trump supporter" scenario. That maybe there's a way higher number of racists out there who don't want to admit they wear a hood at night but would be relieved to see the legal cover for their racism restored. They'd feel better about themselves. I hope that there are fewer people like this than Trump hopes. I think I'm right - but humanity has let me down before.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


That too. German-Americans are fully "white" at this point, I don't think they're treated/considered any differently than British-Americans.

WASP now basically is just WP (white and protestant). Catholics aren't too far off these days, but White and Protestant is still probably the most privileged subset. Few people split hairs about which denomination of Protestant you are or which European country your ancestors were from (as long as you look white).


Just think. If history went a little bit differently the English would have been the half-caste of Europe being the Anglo-Saxon-Norman-Celtic mutts.
posted by Talez at 5:04 PM on September 12, 2016


I think in the Northeast, WASPiness is a more specific thing, like being in the Social Register.
posted by rikschell at 5:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


If history went little bit different, we'd all be going to Kubali Khan elementary school.
posted by clavdivs at 5:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


WASP now basically is just WP (white and protestant). Catholics aren't too far off these days, but White and Protestant is still probably the most privileged subset. Few people split hairs about which denomination of Protestant you are or which European country your ancestors were from (as long as you look white).

I'm a straight white male with a Polish last name, raised sort-of Catholic. I haven't heard a Pollock joke since junior high and I can't remember ever being held back or discriminated against in any way by virtue of being nominally Catholic. This may all be a product of being from the west coast, but even in the military the only demographics-based heat I ever got was over being a Californian. Even that was pretty much meaningless.

Most of the extended family members I can actually name are Irish, not Polish. They're all on the east cost. Never once did I even hear of their parents or grandparents suffering discrimination for being Irish.

The divisions within whiteness are a real thing in as much as they're a matter of historical record. And yeah, you'll find some people who still cling to them. But by and large every time someone brings up "Yeah but white people oppressed white people, too!" my eyes start rolling they hurt. Stuff like that is far, far more a matter of past tense than present.

It also says a lot about a person who 1) says that people claim they're discriminated against or oppressed to get attention and/or to be cool, and then 2) turns around and claims their own white demographics suffer discrimination, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Ha, my husband just got canvassed (Dem).
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


It should be a cultural movement with books and movies and websites and the like that exemplify what that group aspires to be.

Perhaps consider the modern LDS community in that context: it is conservative and largely votes Republican and has its less-shining moments of institutional political activism in recent years, but it is clearly a very distinctive culture in an ongoing conversation with its own history and its place in American society, and there's a good chance that Trump wins the state with only a 42% plurality.
posted by holgate at 5:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


See also: Scientology.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:21 PM on September 12, 2016


It puts the deplorables in the basket!
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not "how to put money in the pocket" but "how can white trad-American culture survive, but without the shitty racism that founded it?"

This restriction on the universe of acceptable solutions makes no sense, because these white rural Americans do want money to be put in their pockets, but they don't want to let go of the racism that lets them cash those checks while voting to deny that same support to others. If we waved a magic wand and eliminated farm subsidies, the mortgage interest deduction, food stamps, Medicaid, and Social Security, you bet your ass white rural Americans would be at the head of the pitchfork-and-torch-wielding mob demanding that those programs be restored.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


If history went little bit different, we'd all be going to Kubali Khan elementary school.

Kubali Khan Academy, surely.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:32 PM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


In Xanadu did Kublai Khan,
A stately charter school decree.
posted by box at 5:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [82 favorites]


"Outside Donald Trump's rally in Asheville, NC: A "Deplorable Lives Matter" sign:"

Whether the initial "gaffe" was planned or not, the decision to double down on the deplorable part when she regretted "half" was genius.
posted by chris24 at 5:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


People been on about WASPs from time to time in these threads. Hillary is the WASP candidate in this race...

Trump is a WASP. Strictly speaking, they're both WASPs, although as a Methodist Clinton is less a member of the old school traditional ruling elite than Trump.
posted by zarq at 5:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump is a WASP. Strictly speaking, they're both WASPs, although as a Methodist Clinton is less a member of the old school traditional ruling elite than Trump.

Also Trump grew up wealthy while Clinton did not.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 5:44 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Jeb was the WASP candidate in this race, and we saw how that worked out for him.
posted by box at 5:45 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh looky, turns out America's Goofy Stepdad Tim Kaine had a goofy stepdad of his own in his missionary years, and that goofy stepdad was THE SPECTRE OF CHE GUEVARA.

Seems like the character assassination starts a little earlier every election season, don't it.
posted by Rhaomi at 5:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Obama has a spider, a puffbird, and a few fish, but no wasps.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Is the Trump campaign actually fighting for college educated white women? I know that's typically a swing demographic but I see zero evidence Trump is actually trying to get them (or I should say "us").

Careful, the next idea on the whiteboard is for everyone to write "Trump" on their dicks and send unsolicited photos of them.
posted by ctmf at 5:50 PM on September 12, 2016


You know those sarcastic postcards with cartoons of mom, dad, and kids, Timmy and Carol where mom is wearing a perfect wasp-waisted dress pouring a martini for dad who is wearing slippers and smoking a pipe? All of them are blonde and smiling and perfectly coiffed? I believe this fiction is the America that people want to "return" to, except it never existed except on TV.

There are mostly a bunch of people under 60, who weren't even alive in that era, and older who may have been alive but are stuck in some nostalgia hole that is delusional. This, I believe, is the image these white Trump supporters have in mind.
posted by Sophie1 at 5:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


No, its elementary that the FFP phrasing should be: Road Maoi Trvmp managed to move attention to Hillarys "basket of deplorables" for a day, media turns 9/11 memorial service into a farse.

She is running to lose at this point. She could have won this in her arm chair with a tea cozy for VP.
posted by clavdivs at 5:56 PM on September 12, 2016


There are mostly a bunch of people under 60, who weren't even alive in that era, and older who may have been alive but are stuck in some nostalgia hole that is delusional. This, I believe, is the image these white Trump supporters have in mind.

Every year, American culture embarks on a massive project to carefully recreate the Christmases of baby boomers' childhoods.
posted by Talez at 5:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


Nick At Nite's got some 'splainin to do!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


"I believe this fiction is the America that people want to "return" to, except it never existed..."

Oh, you've never seen Hazel.

Im guessing Ted just stings like a bee. Ben Carson, on the other hand, is proficient with xylocaine.

But I learned that Hillary is less, lower in the WASP heirarchy of derogitory terms.
A class act basket there.
posted by clavdivs at 6:05 PM on September 12, 2016


Given Trump's praise of Kim Jong-Un, someone should ask him at a debate or religious forum whether he "has to give credit" and finds "incredible" the North Koreans who have gone to their deaths for the sake of practicing Christianity. Or if the reserves that praise for the guy in charge of everything, who is in charge because his grandfather and father set him up to be in charge, murdering his subordinates when they show any sign of independence or rivalry.
posted by XMLicious at 6:10 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's - it's hard, but not impossible.

corb, I have often, vehemently if lurk-ily, disagreed with your views, but I have to say that you make me proud to be a part of this community. It's sooo easy to be a with-the-grain drive-by snarker here, and I imagine it's a lot of work to be a sharp and eloquent dissenter, to say nothing of your on-the-spot RNC reportage. Thanks, is all.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 6:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [46 favorites]


To paraphrase the Simpsons, NPR became a hardcore Fox clone so gradually I didn't even notice!

I think I missed the wave of fairweather megathreadders, but just to repeat:

NPR News is not your friend. They were complicit in the selling of torture, warrantless wiretapping (ah the salad days) and both Iraq War Original, and Iraq War II: The Shittening.

Turn them off! Go old school funk, podcasts, audiobooks, learning company lectures, - you still haven't listened to all of Prince's back catalog that you ordered - or, failing that, sports radio, AM, or drive quietly and think about candy! Anything but give NPR News another chance! They're treating you like s**t, DTMFNPRA!
posted by petebest at 6:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


My 24 hour avoidance of cable news has allowed me to face life without my head exploding. I get the sense cable news actually makes life worse. JCPL: moderate!

I will continue to experiment with this newfound lack of listening to crying bedwetters on the television telling me how doomed we all are.
posted by Justinian at 6:13 PM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


But secondly, even if Trump properly donated the items he bought at auction to another charity, he still wouldn't be off the hook. That is because you can only deduct the portion of a payment to a charity auction that is greater than the fair market value of the item. For example if you bid on a $30,000 car and win with a $40,000 bid, you can't deduct the full $40,000 as a charity donation. What you have done is simply purchased a $30,000 car and donated $10,000 more to the charity. Only $10,000 is tax deductible.

This isn't really relevant with regards to a six foot painting of Trump since the FMV of that is negative five hundred dollars. Negative five thousand if it's not flammable.
posted by phearlez at 6:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


A note on the scanned copy of "Brownies" - the PDF is 9+ mb, to warn you if you're downloading it via a cell phone data connection]

I guess it's kind of charming that you're concerned enough about people's bandwidth bills that you'll warn them about this but not concerned enough about the author's bills to provide a link that involves her getting paid so that she can afford to keep writing.

So here, for the people that might want to help ensure that such works keep getting written.
posted by Candleman at 6:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Well, I made it to the rally. I was fortunate enough to be able to make it into the Wall Street garage with 7 slots left (Thanks Obama!). I hit a local store for the honk missing from my costume and made a circuit of downtown to spread the weird and setttled at the front of the civic center around 1. The crowd started slowly and and was pretty well anti-Trump in the area immediately in front and spilling out in the closed streets, since all of the supporters snaked out and away in an orderly line, all of us enjoying the Basilica in the background.

Some small chanting on both sides erupted every once in a while, and the drum guys (with bonus Basilica's bells) were at it on all afternoon (also the guy in that video was is not me. I want that to be clear. He didn't even have a sign. There were two clowns, Charlotte Observer.) There were some loud voices in anger, but mostly it was pretty mellow.

Somebody told me about 5 that Trump was already there - I didn't plan on seeing him, since I figured he would go in the big service entrance around the corner. The crowd peaked between 5 and 6, people stopped going in, and it seemed like barely 6:30 when when people started coming out. Things stayed civil and both groups were very closely mixed as the Trump supporters cleared the area as quickly as possible and the rest of us hung out. There were still people leaving the arena at 7 when I left.

I imagine evidence will emerge, plenty of people were taking pictures and video. I talked with some Belgian news guys but didn't get their details. The one picture of me I've found so far was before I had my sign. I'm glad I went and that I did my part to help prevent global thermonuclear war.
posted by achrise at 6:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


But secondly, even if Trump properly donated the items he bought at auction to another charity, he still wouldn't be off the hook. That is because you can only deduct the portion of a payment to a charity auction that is greater than the fair market value of the item

If the Fdn paid for it, though, he wouldn't be getting a deduction, because it's the fdn's. It would just be a donation (or bargain sale) from one charity to another, which is fine.
posted by jpe at 6:26 PM on September 12, 2016


I think the only problem with that is that it's impossible to separate traditional white American culture from the racism that founded it.

"White" culture (in the US) is not defined by what it is, but by what it IS NOT.

When you think - "What is whiteness?" - the concept splinters into a million things that in many ways are opposed: NASCAR; The Preppy Handbook; Nicholas Sparks; New Republic magazine culture; Seaside, FL; lace curtain Catholics; Puritans in Thanksgiving hats; "trailer trash"; Jonathan Franzen; the alt-right; leaf peeping in New England; Ayn Rand acolytes; on and on and on.

What is whiteness not? Right now - it's not black culture; it's not Native / American Indian culture; it's not Muslim; it's selectively Jewish, Asian, East Asian, and Hispanic. Whiteness is constructed by harnessing majority power and the concept of white "supremacy" to erect fences that block out The Other. When whiteness appears to be under threat, when too many people are outside the fence and not enough are inside, the gates become a bit more porous, and whiteness shifts again.

We are in a moment where the gates are beginning to expand again (and corb's father is ready and waiting), and some of the people inside aren't getting the message that those they looked down upon are starting to walk inside, and some of the people inside are disagreeing about what "kind" of people are palatable enough to enter next.
posted by sallybrown at 6:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [42 favorites]


All that is to say, there is no way to affirmatively "preserve" white culture as a sop for those feeling ignored by current society. There is only the preservation of those fences -- discrimination and hatred of The Other -- that create whiteness. And that's not something I'm willing to work for, regardless of how angry, disaffected, or depressed people inside the fence are becoming.
posted by sallybrown at 6:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


> NPR News is not your friend. They were complicit in the selling of torture, warrantless wiretapping (ah the salad days) and both Iraq War Original, and Iraq War II: The Shittening.

Turn them off! Go old school funk, podcasts, audiobooks, learning company lectures, - you still haven't listened to all of Prince's back catalog that you ordered - or, failing that, sports radio, AM, or drive quietly and think about candy! Anything but give NPR News another chance! They're treating you like s**t, DTMFNPRA!


My commute has improved immensely (especially with the advent of some weird as-yet-undiagnosed problem that means the radio doesn't work) since I switched to podcasts and listening my way through all the Terry Pratchett audiobooks my library has.
posted by rtha at 6:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I mean, I'd like to believe that Tim Kaine is some kind of Marxist radical, but his record in office doesn't really bear that out...
posted by indubitable at 6:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


The NPR hate is a puzzle to me. One might ask about it the same thing one asks about Hillary: these various crimes against journalism make it worse than the competition how? Living on the edge of a large metro area, my other options for news/talk radio are: right-wing crud that makes you stupider by the minute, putatively "left-wing" crud that also makes you stupider by the minute, a News McNuggets station whose only real reason for existing is that it gives traffic updates every 10 minutes, and a tiny local AM station that carries some really good discussion programs but (a) mostly just plays music and (b) is out of range for most of my commute anyway.

My local NPR station carries Democracy Now and some excellent local news and analysis that would definitely not find a home anywhere on the dial if that station didn't exist. I do not feel the slightest compunction about supporting it.
posted by shenderson at 6:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Let's check in on the race for 2020! Rick Perry on Dancing With The Stars (via my mom): "It's an opportunity to fall in front of 10 million people".

Oh Rick, you've already done that repeatedly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:33 PM on September 12, 2016


One way to look at this is how the inheritance tax became totemic in certain communities thanks to Frank Luntz, even though most rural family properties don't come near the current threshold, and the people who benefit most from any changes are ones who already have lots of money and use various strategies to avoid capital gains ever being taxed. The basic idea of handing everything down has purchase beyond mere possessions.

I believe this fiction is the America that people want to "return" to, except it never existed except on TV.

The "except" slightly masks the significance of collective fictions, particularly in environments with limited access to them. I can't speak to the experience of American Boomers -- though I know that it was very different to my parents' in the UK -- but I have been able to see how the British 70s and 80s have coalesced over the past decade or so into a kind of family album of prevailing ideas and fictions, indebted to what we were all watching on the telly or hearing on the radio at the same time.

This is the last Boomer battle.
posted by holgate at 6:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


The NYTimes has a pretty touching update from Capt. Khan's gravesite:
ARLINGTON, Va. — Nineteen rows down and 20 to the right. That’s the math Mimi Robinson wanted to know: the distance between her father and Capt. Humayun Khan at Arlington National Cemetery.

Like many Americans, she was moved when Captain Khan’s father testified to his son’s values and sacrifice at the Democratic National Convention in July. So, a few days ago, she walked the neatly ordered grounds from the grave site of her father, a member of the Coast Guard who died in 2014, to the marker for Captain Khan.

At the foot of the captain’s grave stone, with its Islamic crescent and Purple Heart inscription, she left a handwritten note on a sheet of loose-leaf paper.

“I’ve been thinking about the ways politics and bureaucracy have tainted my love for this country,” she wrote.

“But seeing your parents, learning about you — has shown and reminded me of the dignity, love and blessings stitched into the diverse fabric of the United States.”
posted by peeedro at 6:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [44 favorites]


I've a anti-Clinton acquaintance. This morning first it was It's not what they're saying it was, she's got some weird terminal disease! Not 20 minutes later, it was 'I was mad she hugged that kid because she's sick but no, see that was HRC's body double, so it's okay.'

Then later 'I'm protesting tomorrow so that Jill Stein can be in the debates.'

Like I can see if you wanted to protest that Johnson be in the debates, he's been polling not too far from the magic 15% but Stein? Some people, they really hate HRC but don't want to vote for anyone near Conservative like Trump/Johnson.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:40 PM on September 12, 2016


For some reason my brain has decided that this week the election is playing out like the film Rounders. Matt Daemon is Hillary and Trump is KGB. Basket of Deplorables was Hill's "check" in the final hand. [spoilers]
posted by humanfont at 6:45 PM on September 12, 2016


Tim Kaine's Radical Roots

The author, Ken Blackwell, is a proudly anti-gay former Ohio Republican and member of the Family Research Council.

I didn't realize they printed such tripe in The Hill.

Journalistic and academic research has now shown that Liberation Theology itself was quite possibly a product of a Kremlin disinformation campaign designed to undermine the Church and bring Catholic countries into the Soviet sphere.

LOL...remind me again why a link to a Liberty University paper is considered "academic research"?
posted by sallybrown at 6:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


The problem is that if we let Jill Stein in the debates, we'd have to invite Harambe, since she's behind him in the polls, and it would surely exclude Egg McMuffin's feelings to be excluded when a dead gorilla made the cut.
posted by zachlipton at 6:48 PM on September 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Re: NPR these various crimes against journalism make it worse than the competition how?

Not worse, just not that much better. They are become Fox, the troller of worlds.

If there aren't any better options and there's really a need to hear news, okay. But as soon as it's reasonable, check out some other options. I have it on good authority there are way more new podcasts daily than one would need for a week of commutes, and at much better signal-to-crap ratio.

Also, listen to those Prince albums. He's really good and we know this election is funk-deficient. He'll heal what's ailin' ya
posted by petebest at 6:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, I'm not even anything close to Catholic, and I'm offended at the implication that liberation theology was a KREMLIN CONSPIRACY. what the fuck.
posted by yasaman at 6:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


see the comment above me. Yeah his dad's name is German but that's not too far off anyway

Guess where the Anglo-Saxons came from.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just found out that James O'Keefe staged a fake pro-Trump rally on my campus today. (This is a few days after some guys smashed a Trump standee that the College Republicans had set up.) O'Keefe brought a cardboard Trump and a bunch of fake bricks and started building a wall on the main plaza. People surrounded him, kicked down his wall, and chanted "fuck you, Trump! Fuck you, Trump!"

I missed all of this because I was in a three hour lecture. I can't tell you how sad I am that there isn't a video of me yelling "fuck you, Trump!" I could show it to my grandkids.
posted by teponaztli at 6:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


corb has articulated a point that many others have made, in various ways, over the last few months: that Trump's success is largely a symptom of identity-anxiety among a certain class of white Americans, a sense that their culture is being lost.

Now, I can believe that. But before we can do much with that idea, we need to get a lot more specific about what culture we're talking about here. What, exactly, do people think they're "losing"? I honestly don't know – if someone has (even part of) an answer, please share. But I'll spitball a bit.

The first thing that comes to my mind is the "war on Christmas" meme: "You can't even say 'Merry Christmas' anymore without being accused of being a bigot! Christians are being persecuted in this country!" &c.

Which is nonsense, of course. You say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" because it's annoying when people make assumptions about your religious beliefs (or lack thereof), and you don't want to be annoying. And Christianity is, and has always been, the majority religion in the US – asking Christians to be more considerate of the non-Christians around them for a change is hardly "persecution".

So, that one's a dud – nothing's being "lost" except the privilege to blithely treat one's own culture as normal and proper (and as the only culture that's normal and proper), and to act without thought or consideration for others.

In a similar vein: "Why do we have to press 1 for English nowadays? If you can't speak English in public, then go back to Mexico!"

Again: nothing is being "lost" here except for the luxury of having one's own culture coddled and catered to (and not having to spare a second thought for anyone else). As the saying goes: when you're used to privilege, the absence of privilege feels like persecution.

If I'm missing something here – if there are elements of white culture that (a) are actually being lost, and (b) don't simply boil down to privilege – someone please set me straight. Because I'm at a loss to imagine what they are.

There is only the preservation of those fences -- discrimination and hatred of The Other -- that create whiteness.

Very well said. It's not a culture that white folks are afraid of losing, but an identity. Specifically, the culturally constructed identity that we call whiteness. They (correctly) perceive that their whiteness – and the privileges that come with it – are at risk of being taken away. And so they're freaking out.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


That Tim Kaine article is amazing. It's like an artifact from the 90s when someone's Radical Commie Roots might in any way be relevant.

Did Kaine's mentors teach him the art of Soviet disinformation — call yourself the very thing you seek to undermine and try to destroy it from within?


YES Tim Kaine, master manipulator! Don't listen to those technicolor blues riffs children he's going to turn u hippe!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:55 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]




heatherlogan and I just filled out our absentee ballots for Wisconsin.

2x🧀4H!
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm not even anything close to Catholic, and I'm offended at the implication that liberation theology was a KREMLIN CONSPIRACY

Vatican II? Kremlin Conspiracy. When the priest has those chunks of bread for Communion instead of wafers? Kremlin Conspiracy. The movie Rudy? Kremlin Conspiracy. Cantors who play acoustic guitar during Mass? Kremlin Conspiracy. Conan O'Brien? Kremlin Conspiracy. Pope Francis? Definitely Kremlin Conspiracy.
posted by sallybrown at 6:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


The Rude Pundit: If You Give a Racist a Candidate...:A Child's Guide to Understanding the Basket of Deplorables:
If you give a racist a candidate, he'll think that it's okay to be a racist.

When he thinks it's okay to be racist, he'll openly say and write racist things. When he's finished, he'll start saying sexist things, too.

Then he'll go on Twitter and get angry at anyone who calls him racist. When he goes on Twitter, he'll notice that other people who like his candidate hate Jews, gays, and Muslims. So he'll probably start saying terrible things about them, too.

When he's finished tweeting and posting to message boards, he'll want to go to a rally for his candidate. He'll start yelling things there. He might even get carried away and yell things about shooting or deporting people he doesn't like. He may even end up taking a swing at someone who looks different from him as well!

When he's done, he'll probably demand that you take him seriously. You'll have to watch TV news people treat his beliefs like they're just fine.
posted by palindromic at 6:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [57 favorites]


Here's the NC GOP's response [to the NCAA pulling out of North Carolina]. I made sure it was not a parody account.

Here I was hoping it was going to be a variant of "We will put no impediment in your way. The members of the North Carolinan GOP will be down at the dockside waving you a fond farewell as you sail off into the sunset."

But instead we get the KFC double down. Just more greasy bullshit.
posted by Talez at 7:00 PM on September 12, 2016


Tim Kaine es el candidato hondureña.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Possible Terms for Trump Supporters."

7. Ku Klux Klambake
posted by chris24 at 7:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


nothing's being "lost" except the privilege to blithely treat one's own culture as normal and proper (and as the only culture that's normal and proper), and to act without thought or consideration for others.

That is everything. Remember, when your existence is built around privilege over others, losing that privilege feels like the worst oppression. Imagine of Deplorable Donald Trump feels toward everybody (except despotic rulers of countries).
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Pence: We're Not Talking About Trump's Birtherism, It's a '4-Year-Old Issue'

July 2015:
Asked whether he thought Obama was born in the U.S., Trump responded: “I don’t know. I really don’t know. I don’t know why he wouldn’t release his records.”
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]




That Kaine article hommmmggg that takes me back!

I went to a Catholic high school (despite my family not being in any way Christian, let alone Catholic) that, through a random quirk of school consolidation and teacher seniority, was pretty much run by liberation theologists for the period when I attended. (My husband wound up teaching there briefly about 15 years later and that time had definitely come to an end via a local conservative Catholic family with very deep pockets throwing money hand over fist at the school as long as they kept the commie stuff out.)

I've seen the movie Romero twice in the context of high school classes. Also Jesus Christ Superstar. My dad the Libertarian was pretty put out by it and tried the party line about liberation theology on me (not only are they religious but, horrors!, they're collectivist religious--as if I hadn't already seen all the parts of the Bible where Jesus straight up was like, 'Hey everyone in my Church, you shouldn't have personal belongings, you should share everything you have.') but that was the beginning of the end with me and conservatism because the liberation theologists were totally harmless. Like, the worst offense my one religion teacher committed was occasionally wearing a dashiki to school. I graduated thinking that if you called yourself a Christian and didn't believe that the poor should be uplifted and empowered and that the rich have a lot to answer for, then you're a pretty shitty Christian because all that shit is in the Bible. I'm still not a Christian, but liberation theologists are all right, man.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [61 favorites]


Quinn Norton wrote a couple of pieces on whiteness for Medium back in 2014, and one part of her argument is that whiteness is defined by a set of proscribed behaviours dictated to non-whites under the auspices of being for their own benefit and safety. (That becomes starker in the context of BLM, but covers things like where black children are allowed to play or hang out.) Trouble comes when whiteness is no longer perceived as providing even a meagre premium:
White privilege is sold to whites, but it is the socio-political equivalent of putting “Contains No Arsenic!” on a breakfast cereal box. White folk have bought into that message tremendously. I mean, who wants a breakfast cereal with arsenic in it? Of course, the problem is there’s no reason cereal should ever have arsenic in it in the first place.
posted by holgate at 7:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, anyone sympathetic to liberation theology put 2 and 2 together about Kaine and his mission trip the minute they heard him tell the story. Jesuit school + the 80s + mission trip to Honduras = liberation theology. Come on.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


Here's the NC GOP's response [to the NCAA pulling out of North Carolina]. I made sure it was not a parody account.

I can only hope she and the rest of those transphobic assholes one day look back at this moment in shame and horror.
posted by zarq at 7:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump's success is largely a symptom of identity-anxiety among a certain class of white Americans, a sense that their culture is being lost.

Okay, there's some of this, probably. But I don't think it's the main thing.

The main thing is, Trump is a TV celebrity.

He strikes many people as "strong," and for many people the strong-angry-daddy type is a big thing.

He's also very plainspoken and easy to understand.

He's also angry and many people are angry and confused, because they find life confusing and complicated.

So: Count up the angry people who are easily confused, impressed by TV celebrities, and wish for a strong daddy type. Probably about 32% of the population.

The rest of Trump voters are just Republicans who won't let go.
posted by argybarg at 7:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump's success is largely a symptom of identity-anxiety among a certain class of white Americans = many people are angry and confused, because they find life confusing and complicated.

I think is the point
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:23 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I guess it's kind of charming that you're concerned enough about people's bandwidth bills ...

Strive to be charming. Link to the Kindle edition (559 KB)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mod note: One comment deleted. This is 100% not a referendum on corb; if you can't participate in here without taking it in that direction, step out of the thread.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


It is the point, but I think the anger is just anger, not anger rooted in identity-anxiety. It's anger that can be funneled into whatever is around, or whatever demagogues want to shape it into.
posted by argybarg at 7:27 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Let's check in on the race for 2020! Rick Perry on Dancing With The Stars (via my mom): "It's an opportunity to fall in front of 10 million people".

I've heard that he's quite charming on the show. Guess the trajectory of politics to show biz is preferable than the alternative, from the nation's point of view.

Remember that charming time when people were most scared of him as a dumber, more bellicose version of Bush? And here we are.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


whatever demagogues want to shape it into.

But the GOP are most definitely shaping it into Us (white america) vs Them (anything not white/hetero/christian)
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:30 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh indeed they are.
posted by argybarg at 7:34 PM on September 12, 2016


Tomorrow's New York Post cover.

1) Fuck them.
2) I hope Hillary is careful about how hard she's laughing at the GOP reactions to this and the "basket of deplorables" - I wouldn't want her to pull a stomach muscle in addition to her other ailments.
posted by sallybrown at 7:38 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Right, but anger comes from somewhere, right? That's what I'm interested in figuring out. I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:39 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's also very plainspoken and easy to understand.

On what planet is he easy to understand
posted by tzikeh at 7:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


When he goes off prompter it always sounds like word salad gibberish to me. The entire point of complete sentences is to be easily comprehensible. I think "plainspoken and easy to understand" is code for "uses the patterns and vocabulary of a 5 year old."

Remember, he has the best words. The best words.
posted by Justinian at 7:43 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


David Duke blames the Jews for Wolf Blitzer grilling Pence on whether or not he is deplorable.

Wolf Blitzer demands that Pense call me "Deplorable" and he refuses.. Wolfie boy, still upset that I outed you on CNN as an AIPAC AGENT?

posted by Sophie1 at 7:46 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.\

The loss of cultural hegemony.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


If I were to order a Clinton/Kaine yard sign today, how long would it take before it arrives?

I ordered my sign (and some other tchotchkes - the pillow, the flower tote, coasters, magnet, cough, I went a little nuts, ahahahah) on 8/22/2016 and the order confirmation email I received said I would receive everything in 3-4 weeks. So I'm hoping to get my Hillary stuff by next Wednesday. I think if you order now you'd almost certainly get the sign 2-4 weeks before the election. That said, my understanding is that local Democratic county committees who will be working on GOTV efforts will definitely have some swag/signs for volunteers so signing up for a phone bank or canvassing session might be a successful way of getting a sign before October.
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Right, but anger comes from somewhere, right? That's what I'm interested in figuring out. I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

No, they're being directed.

Look, I don't feel 100% on what I'm about to write. It's kind of unpleasant and possibly wrong. But I think that there's a certain number of people who are ... kind of stupid. Or incurious. Or simple. And the world has become an unforgiving place for them. They'll never have very good jobs, they'll never be like the families in commercials. And this makes them angry. And maybe they were also kind of angry to begin with.

There's a culture of angry to belong to. Yelling at wrestling, yelling at monster truck rallies, fighting in bars. The people who do much of the above are just not very smart, or they're smart but emotionally damaged.

I know a lot of people who were thoughtful and sensitive and got the hell out of places that felt mean and angry. Others didn't, or couldn't.

I don't know, I'm not proud of what I'm saying. I just wonder if stupidity, anger and meanness aren't just constants, like electrical cables waiting to be plugged in to whatever socket is around.
posted by argybarg at 7:50 PM on September 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


David Duke blames the Jews for Wolf Blitzer grilling Pence on whether or not he is deplorable.


Wait, what did we do?

Man, our world encompassing conspiracies are getting a bit thin.
posted by Lord_Pall at 7:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


“My opponent’s campaign of hate. Hillary Clinton has been running a hate-filled and negative campaign with no policy, no solutions and no new ideas.”

"By contrast, I've been going around the country offering very detailed plans for reform and change."
The psychological projection is past delusional levels! My "can't even" can't take much more of this!
posted by Talez at 7:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


That actually makes a good bit of sense, argybarg. Thanks.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:52 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

I don't. I've given this one a lot of thought because I have some form of depression, and it manifests largely as raw, inchoate anger most of my waking life. I wouldn't kill a guy just to watch him die, but I pretty much always want to. Having spent a lot of time with that, trying to work with it and shape it into something beyond gibbering madness, I've noticed that we are *told* to be angry.

It's a big component of toxic masculinity, this notion that we should react to pretty much every negative stimuli by being rage monsters. We're told that being gentle and compromising and compassionate is coded as feminine - and therefore weak - in the bulk of mainstream pop culture. I have made an honest effort not to give in to all of that despite a natural inclination, but I understand that it is difficult, and most people wouldn't put forth the work.

So I find it super easy to believe.

Upon preview:
I just wonder if stupidity, anger and meanness aren't just constants, like electrical cables waiting to be plugged in to whatever socket is around.

I don't think it must be embraced the way our current culture does, but I do think a certain amount of it *is* inevitable for the reasons you just went over. Like, I've gotten tired of the 'the racists will die off' arguments. I'm not having them anymore. There will always be upset people that might form into mobs about *something*, and it probably won't be something clever.
posted by mordax at 7:54 PM on September 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Hmmm... I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?
posted by Rhaomi at 7:55 PM on September 12, 2016


David Duke blames the Jews for Wolf Blitzer grilling Pence on whether or not he is deplorable.

Seems like kind of a low bar. You would think we'd spend our precious time influencing more important people than Wolf Blitzer.
posted by zarq at 7:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Remember, he has the best words. The best words.

Having transcribed(ish) a few of his off-prompter speeches, it's more like:
I have the best words, the best... Putin said I was brilliant. Can you believe? Imagine if we could get along with Russia... Obama, who created ISIS... he says ISIL to divide us

There's no close parentheses.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:56 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Hmmm... I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?

I never got a shipping notification, it just arrived spontaneously.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's anger that can be funneled into whatever is around, or whatever demagogues want to shape it into.

Except that once it gets funnelled into perceived immutables (white vs black and brown) then it is difficult to unfunnel them. Which is why this kind of campaigning has generally been treated like juggling lighting by candidates who were simultaneously cleverer and more politically normative than Trump, even if they were morally objectionable, hence the much-cited quote from Lee Atwater about how the train whistle of the 50s became a dog-whistle by the late 60s.
posted by holgate at 7:58 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Hmmm... I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?

I'd email them (orders@hillaryforamericashop.com) with your order number to check on status - that's going on six weeks.
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:58 PM on September 12, 2016


"By contrast, I've been going around the country offering very detailed plans for reform and change."

It's amazing. He doesn't have to actually offer a plan. He just says he has, and his supporters believe him. I've seen so much of that denial of actual reality in favor if a constructed reality on Twittter recently.
posted by happyroach at 7:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Seems like kind of a low bar. You would think we'd spend our precious time influencing more important people than Wolf Blitzer.

Uhhhh.... He is Jewish. The guy's name is "Blitzer" for fuck's sake and since he's definitely not a reindeer...
posted by Talez at 8:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Absolutely the least of his sins, but Duke spelled Pence wrong in his tweet too.

Interesting strategy on Duke's part here, though I suppose it's not new for him: hmm, so Pence won't call me deplorable yet, what even more deplorable things can I get away with saying?
posted by zachlipton at 8:02 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Uhhhh.... He is Jewish.

Yes, I know. His parents were Holocaust survivors.

The only thing I can think of to do in reply to David Duke is point, laugh and make sarcastic comments.
posted by zarq at 8:02 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, given that Blitzer is Jewish it would be more disturbing if he was _not_ being controlled by a Jewish person, right?
posted by thefoxgod at 8:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

I'm starting to think of racism and bigotry as similar to addiction; facing it is scary, because then you must admit your own wrongdoing, and that of people you love and care about. It's easier to stay in denial, to lash out and double down, because then you never have to face yourself. But deep down you know what you're doing, so it drives you to a bad, disjointed place. It eats at your soul. You have to de-person the people you are hurting so that you don't feel guilt, but that damages you as well. And then someone like Trump comes along to enable your addiction, to say no, don't feel guilty, you are good, you are right, *they* are the bad ones, and it's so seductive, so long as you don't think about it.

And like with addicts, I can have compassion for someone living in that dark miserable place, while also wanting to stop the harm that they are doing to others. Because the victims should be considered first. But in the long run, we have to push against that denial and keep pushing or we will never be the society we should be.

It's not surprising that white America, the America that cares deeply about being white, resists and screams and tries to hurt anyone who destroys their illusions. It's a measure of how fragile those illusions are that they can't endure even the mildest questions.

It's scary because we all wonder, how violent will it get? But the only way out is through. We can't go back.
posted by emjaybee at 8:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


Right, but anger comes from somewhere, right? That's what I'm interested in figuring out. I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

Oh there are a hundred, or a hundred hundred different little reasons that any one of Trump's supporters might be angry about, but those folks have a few things in common: they've lost labor jobs, or their factory town has gone under, or their cousin is a white cop somewhere so they identify with the cops not the dead black teenager, or they're scared to be turned gay, or they once had a muslim get into the faster line in front of them at the grocery store -- and now they, suddenly and spontaneously, have a spokesman.
Trump speaks for their anger, and focuses it just enough to make them believe they share a common cause: making america great for them again.
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:05 PM on September 12, 2016


Yeah, given that Blitzer is Jewish it would be more disturbing if he was _not_ being controlled by a Jewish person, right?

My wife's Jewish so I get to see the zionist conspiracy newsletters and I'm pretty sure there was definitely a reminder for all Jewish interviewers to make sure it was known that David Duke is a giant dick.

It was either a zionist conspiracy newsletter or that page of well known facts I had lying around.
posted by Talez at 8:07 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can we get a reporter to fork Trump and Putin, or Trump and Duke? Something like, people say you're not at all a boss. You just a following loo-hoo-hoo-ser who does whatever Vladimir Putin wants you to do. Totally an underling.
[answer]
Oh yeah, well then can you name something Putin was wrong about? Say something he wouldn't like to hear.

I mean, sure, it's juvenile high school popularity silliness. But that's the level of sophistication his supporters understand.
posted by ctmf at 8:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


"By contrast, I've been going around the country offering very detailed plans for reform and change."

BREAKING NEWS: Trump confused, can't tell the difference between himself and HRC
posted by mmoncur at 8:08 PM on September 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


For anyone who has an even left:

Clinton’s reluctance to drink water causing tension with her staff: report
posted by Sophie1 at 8:11 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh yeah, [real]
posted by Sophie1 at 8:12 PM on September 12, 2016


WATERGATE
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [77 favorites]


Sophie1, can you describe what you linked to (since it has disappeared)?
posted by Mothlight at 8:15 PM on September 12, 2016


Just consistent with all his previous business enterprises... turning all the real selling points for his competition into his own claims "They say Fiji Water is imported from Fiji? Well, it isn't. Trump Water is the only water from... uh, Trump!"
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


> I just wonder if stupidity, anger and meanness aren't just constants, like electrical cables waiting to be plugged in to whatever socket is around.

This feels really right-on and true and accurate to me. A lot of that anger and meanness comes from fear - fear of losing what little one might have, fear of change, like that - and actually channeling that fear into something productive (like not being afraid) takes a kind of work and attention that a lot of people either don't have to give or just don't want to. And it waits there for someone to do the channeling, the easy kind that can happen without much work or attention, and it carves out all kinds of raw, awful, dangerous stuff. I feel awful in a way, for people who feel this awful all the time. It's a hell of a way to live, and there's only so much anyone who is not the angry fearful person can do to fix it. The change has to start from inside.
posted by rtha at 8:17 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]




Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.
posted by Miko at 8:19 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's this gem from The Hill: Clinton's reluctance to drink water causing tension with her staff:
Though Hillary Clinton was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday, the real concern is chronic dehydration, sources close to the Democratic nominee told Politico.

“She won’t drink water, and you try telling Hillary Clinton to drink water,” a source said.

Clinton abruptly left a 9/11 memorial service in New York on Sunday because she felt “overheated.”

Video of Clinton leaving the event showed the former secretary of State struggling to walk to her van. At one point she appeared to collapse.

Sources told Politico that Clinton quickly recovered in the backseat of the air-conditioned van as she drank water and Gatorade.

Clinton, whose health has been under scrutiny, quickly called campaign staff and family to tell them what happened and assess the political fallout.
That's the entire article. Um...ok.
posted by sallybrown at 8:19 PM on September 12, 2016


Refresh it. I screwed up the link the first time.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.

My response.
posted by Talez at 8:22 PM on September 12, 2016


I know you're concerned about Trump and the growing stench of fascism among the populace. But the real concern...is chronic dehydration.
posted by sallybrown at 8:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


"...you try telling Hillary Clinton to drink water."

This is going to turn into "The Clinton Aquafina Murders...REVEALED" on Fox by morning, isn't it?
posted by zarq at 8:24 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:25 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Something something, not culture, but unearned privilege, something something, not culture, but hegemony, something something, not dying out, but becoming just like any Other, something something, lump it.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 8:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton's reluctance to drink water causing tension with her staff

I read that earlier today and was finally overtaken with emotion at Hillary. All of the other issues have managed to bypass my outrage filter, but NOT HYDRATING? When you're sick especially? Fuck it, I'm voting Trump.
posted by vverse23 at 8:26 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


One might ask about it the same thing one asks about Hillary: these various crimes against journalism make it worse than the competition how?

It depends on what you call the competition, no? If you think of the competition as other news radio, sure, I guess it does okay. But for me, this morning, the competition was that my phone picked "Southern California Wants to be Western New York" and I drove along on this fine, cool, sunny, autumn-y morning thinking HOW FUCKING MUCH I love living here and before long the leaves will turn and the nights will get cold and I need to get some new cinnamon sticks and cloves to get ready for making hot cider. And this afternoon, the competition was that the phone picked "Atom Bomb Baby" and I turned it up real loud and sang along while I drove home, thinking happy thoughts of how when I got home I could murder super mutants and Brotherhood d-bags alike. Beat the shit out of NPR, I tell you what.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]




T.D. Strange: WATERGATE

Bravo!
posted by zarq at 8:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Surely the relevant comparison, both because it wasn't actually a scandal and because we've been discussing white people culture, is Whitewater, no?
posted by zachlipton at 8:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]




When I was a kid ... eeny, meeny, miny, moe was quite happily followed up with ..."

I clearly remember the day I came home from pre-K and shared the rhyme I'd learned, which ended with "catch a tiger by the toe" and my dad being surprised and telling me what it was when HE learned it. I looked at him like he had suddenly grown another head cause I DID know that word and somehow knew how bad it was. Also my mom was in the background trying to get him to shut the hell up.

My dad would have voted for Trump if he were alive, mostly as a troll.
posted by threeturtles at 8:40 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Whiteness needs
Final edition. Why Miko, I thought history would provide some clue as to those who may have tried to change or try too, this cultural of dominant white males...hmm, pretty tall order historically. How about the countries first elected female senator (Hattie Caraway) did she try? Does her being first serve as a small victory to fight dominant behavior?

White, right. Well, we could use the post civil war elections of Republicans in southern states...but the Democratic Party ended that nonsense and now, LBJ seems to get the all the credit.
posted by clavdivs at 8:43 PM on September 12, 2016


As someone who grew up in Greenville, South Carolina, lived for many years in Asheville, North Carolina, and who's entire family still resides in Asheville, I am pretty qualified to say that no, it is not stupid for Trump to stage a rally there.

Lots of people have this idea that Asheville is like Portland / Boulder / Williamsburg / Austin, whatever. And....I have to be honest, not having spent a huge amount of time in those places, that they may be right? But the implication seems to be that Asheville, North Carolina is some liberal bastion that simply won't stand for it, serves NO purpose for an R candidate to visit, etc.

Which sadly, isn't true.

Look, I love Asheville. My family and many dear friends live there. We've held MetaFilter meetups. But Asheville is deeply troubled.

For starters, Asheville is very, very small. That Civic Center with the Basilica behind it? There's basically like an 8 by 10 block of "downtown" around it. Sure, there's West Asheville and residential Montford and some other areas, but the "town" itself is tiny. And it's surrounded by stereotypical racist, country-ass white people that were positively splattered in McCain / Palin signage.

And if you just focus on Asheville itself? You aren't looking at Portland. It's a lot closer to say, Sedona maybe? It has the trappings of a liberal hippy granola town, but with a streak of anti-intellectual fear-mongering conspiracy-theory tinfoil hatting buffoonery about as wide as the town itself. This is a town where "honest, caring liberals" will tell you (and constantly tell me, damn Facebook) that 9/11 was an inside job, vaccines cause autism, chemtrails are real, blah blah blah. A metric FUCKTON of Asheville "liberals" may dislike Trump, but they are also densely Bernie or Busters. The young liberal millennials that live there want reproductive rights (as long as they don't have to vaccinate the kids they choose to have) and want to save the environment (as long as the Government takes the goddamn fluoride out of the water) and so on and so on. Almost all of my feed is clogged with Asheville men and women that HATE Sec. Clinton.

I've hit the unfriend button a lot in the last few months.

So yeah, it isn't crazy for Trump to go there.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:47 PM on September 12, 2016 [20 favorites]




When I was a kid ... eeny, meeny, miny, moe was quite happily followed up with ..."


When I was a kid (70's) it was catch a tigger as in the Disney character. This was west coast of Canada so it somehow changed from the original. We used it all the time and it wasn't until my teens that we put everything together and figured out it's actual origin. It was pretty horrifying.
posted by Jalliah at 8:49 PM on September 12, 2016


The ad doesn't just show Clinton calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, but actually shows her doing the laundry list of why - "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" - while showing his supporters cheering. And doesn't even refute the charge.

the point of this line of attack is that the kind of moralizing that labels one quarter of the american electorate as "racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, [and] Islamaphobic" is alienating. it's the progressive flipside of conservative christians flipping out about modernity. charging such a broad list of offenses is just annoying to most people, it sounds hyperbolic and obnoxious if you aren't invested in the particulars.
posted by p3on at 8:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whiteness needs a culture that's made up of more than just dominance.

I think about the free summer concerts that Asheville holds in the middle of downtown that are all bluegrass and old-time music, a deep-rooted part of regional culture -- one that engages with the Saturday night songs of broken families and vices and isolation as well as the Sunday morning songs of praise and thanksgiving and community. Coming from the mountains, it's inevitably a white tradition, though one played on instruments with black roots, to a diverse crowd.

There was a brief, silent BLM protest this year that the concert organisers acknowledged and respected because they are all good people.

Sing of your vices, sing your praises. That's a culture.

clavdivs: I think what the Radical Republicans and LBJ shared was a sense that the South needed two or three generations' worth of political chemotherapy to get the cancer of slavery out of its system. Neither were able to achieve that.
posted by holgate at 8:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Now I want to sup on Mount Pisgah.
posted by clavdivs at 8:57 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Look, I don't feel 100% on what I'm about to write. It's kind of unpleasant and possibly wrong. But I think that there's a certain number of people who are ... kind of stupid. Or incurious. Or simple. And the world has become an unforgiving place for them. They'll never have very good jobs, they'll never be like the families in commercials. And this makes them angry. And maybe they were also kind of angry to begin with.

There's a culture of angry to belong to. Yelling at wrestling, yelling at monster truck rallies, fighting in bars. The people who do much of the above are just not very smart, or they're smart but emotionally damaged.


This is a hell of a way to talk about people who grew up in small towns with no opportunities, working multiple minimum wage jobs just to get by, while jobs are harder to find than ever, corporations are cutting numbers and going lean however they can, tons of manufacturing jobs have been wiped out, the elites in Wall Street screwed them over and foreclosed their homes, etc.

It's tempting to think these people are just simple, but that's the same old blame-shifting classism. I find it ugly and incorrect, and it transmits loud and clear to people who could be on our side if we weren't so damn smug, dismissive, and condescending. There are complex, multi-threaded reasons for why poor rural whites are acting how they are, but those reasons are there for those who dig, and if we don't try to understand, we're in for a massive Brexit-style shock in November. It does no one any favors to lapse into Larry the Cable Guy stereotypes.
posted by naju at 9:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


And if you just focus on Asheville itself? You aren't looking at Portland.

As I say to my PNW friends, Asheville is like a playable demo of Portland. And Portland oh my so my god very definitely has its anti-vaxxers and anti-fluoriders (but also legal weed).
posted by holgate at 9:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I hereby suspend Godwin's Law for the duration. You may call actual Nazis Nazis.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:04 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


to people who could be on our side if we weren't so damn smug, dismissive, and condescending.

However ugly the premise might seem, I'd like to think that was true, because then there'd be an path out, but I really don't. I think it's more "if we weren't so damn living somewhere else." There really is a lot of in-group / out-group stuff going on here -- think of how Steve Beshear had to call the KY Medicaid expansion Kynect because folks down in Clay County wouldn't have signed up for Obamacare -- and it's apparently easier to become part of the in-group by being a bullshitting TV blowhard than to say "hey, how about we get you on the path to power and jobs through solar just like we did with the TVA?"
posted by holgate at 9:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I find it hard to believe that vast numbers of white, culturally traditional Americans just happen to be simultaneously and spontaneously angry for no particular reason.

One of my religious brethren wrote an article about anger in which he mentioned, "Anger is a response to having your boundaries violated." Justified or not, a whole lot of people had personal and social boundaries that are no longer being honored - by the legal system, by the media, by their employers and communities - and they are angry. They may not even know why, because the boundaries haven't been socially acceptable to consciously acknowledge for many years.

I noticed several years ago that many Christians will claim they're being "oppressed," when what they're being required to do, is acknowledge that other religions exist. We're seeing that in gender politics as well: "oppression" means having to acknowledge that gender doesn't fit the binary system they are comfortable with. For most of the 20th century, many white people complained loudly that they were being "oppressed" by being required to accept that "people," with full legal rights, came in more than one color. That's mostly faded, so they're now complaining about being forced to acknowledge that communities are not required to be white - whether that's interracial couples in their sitcoms, or news showing communities of color as anything other than "lookit those exotic (and probably violent) freaks."

Find the boundary to find the source of the anger; make them talk about the boundary, because we can't get rid of the anger without dismantling those walls.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:20 PM on September 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


why poor rural whites are acting how they are

but poor rural whites aren't the base of his support.
posted by forza at 9:21 PM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


I think we have a pretty good example of what an inclusive American culture looks like brought to us by my favorite wrestler*, John Cena.

*not a wrestling fan and yet I have a favorite wrestler, weird.
posted by VTX at 9:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I ordered a sign pack and bumper sticker back on August 4th and still haven't received anything, not even a shipping notification. Is that weird?

Your mistake was sending a donation to the Clinton Campaign. Instead you should have sent your donation to the Clinton Foundation. The news media assure me that Hillary would have personally hand delivered your merchandise the next day.
posted by JackFlash at 9:23 PM on September 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


but poor rural whites aren't the base of his support.

Exactly. I did want to mention how educated/middle-class whites are a key part of Trump's base, and are likely just as racist if not more. The stuff about "yelling at monster truck rallies" is clearly aiming at a particular demographic and I wanted to address them as a convenient scapegoat.
posted by naju at 9:28 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Many years ago, Randy Newman wrote a (NSFW) song about how racism is kind of everywhere and not just in the south.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:33 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Those middle-class voters are feeling economic strain too, by the way, a sense of things being much harder than they've ever been. They've seen their wealth diminish rapidly since 2008. They don't happen to see that the Wall Street crash also destroyed 53 percent of African-American wealth and 66 percent of Hispanic wealth. But this is not widely known in general for some reason.
posted by naju at 9:35 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Should we begin with the vast inequity concerning the Treaty of Redestriction.

Oh my what a dose of radiation those 1866 elections were. Well, yeah, the spectre of slaverly remained and remains but it's not just the south. Go forward to say Malcom X and his tremendous "the ballot or the bullet" speech, telling enough of the times and he gave that speech in Cleveland, 1964. The fucking cancer of racism spread. Almost a 100 years of democrat control and what, mini steps and offers of complacency.
As far as Johnsons understanding times curative effects I offer this story of Lyndon in his last years, post presidency. One day, a young man and his mother happen to be by the ranch and LBJ starts waving his arms in a windmill fashion and says to the young man. "Well, maybe someday all of us will be visiting your house in Waco, because you'll be president and your home will be a national museum". Lyndon then promptly and politely tells the mother to go home and clean the house "spic-and-span" in the event of that day.
Maybe he did believe what he said, ask Doris Kearns Goodwin, she witnessed the exchange.
For a better rage/displacement/ politics/racism example I suggest 1930s Louisiana.

Start with Huey Long.

You'll end up at a Clinton White House.
I still stand by my old Marxist prof who said reconstruction did more damage then the actual war.
posted by clavdivs at 9:36 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


racism is kind of everywhere yt and not just in the south.

But it's always easier to say "those people", for everyone.
posted by bongo_x at 9:36 PM on September 12, 2016


It's amusing how many more calls for nuance, mutual understanding and sympathy for Trump supporters one sees around here than we saw for Sanders supporters. Racist white men, sure, they've got a plight -- but those BoB-ers, that there's no excuse for!

More seriously, one of Clinton's most effective strategies was attacking Sanders via his supporters. It's interesting how that strategy does and doesn't work in the general.
posted by chortly at 9:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Has anyone linked to this yet?

stop the election please i would like to get off mr 2016's wild ride
posted by R.F.Simpson at 9:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


It remains to be seen how effective attacking Sanders' supporters was. It's still not one big happy party. I expect Democratic voter turnout to be low for just these reasons.
posted by naju at 9:42 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


naju, I get it. I really do. I've ached to find the bridge into rural cultures, I'm all different kinds of fascinated by small-town America and Appalachian culture, and I would feel really terrible about myself right now if I believe I had just told you that small towns are full of stupid people because the smart ones leave.

But that's not what I'm saying. Well, not completely. People leaving small towns because there's nothing for them there is a real thing, but the effect of it is not a straight 1:1 anything.

I also don't think that all pointed political rage is stupidity. Sometimes people are mad that their parts of the world don't matter, don't get basic services, get looked down on, get demolished by drugs and unemployment and no one seems to know what to do — and that rage takes many forms, from the uprising of the glorious proletariat to the KKK. But the rage comes from genuine grievances.

And unsophisticated does not equal stupid. Unwordly does not equal stupid. Uneducated is not the fault of the uneducated. Got it.

But stupid is a real thing, everywhere. I don't know what to do with this fact, but I think some people are born, or raised, not well-equipped to make sense of a complex world.

Look, my father taught freshman-level film classes at various colleges, and every year he taught students who not only had never figured out that actors don't just make up their lines, they continued, throughout the class, to be confused about the difference between the actor and what the character did. I remember my father's account of his patient dialogue with a student who swore Sylvester Stallone, a.k.a Rambo, really was an American hero, because of those things he did. This person not only never got the distinction, he never cared; it was my father who put all the energy into the point.

Now you might find someone with little education, who never left a small town, but was not confused on this point. Someone with a good intuition about how things worked, someone curious enough read and study on her own and think about how things get made. So the small town or rural or white or whatever is not the important thing.

But the Rambo-is-a-hero person will see Donald Trump as the guy who was strong on TV, and the guy who says we're going to win and keep bad people away. I don't care where the hell you're from, supporting Donald Trump because "you're fired" and "he tells it like it is" and "he's strong" is the mark of a person who is not very bright — is, in fact, deeply confused and doesn't think very well.

And for what it's worth, I brought up monster truck rallies because I went to a couple (yes, slumming with friends, and a little journalism), and watched people wait outside the back entrance, the service entrance where the trucks were rolled into the arena, to yell at the trucks they hated and try to throw trash at them. When the heel trucks rolled by people got red in the face screaming "fuck you" at them. Maybe it was all theater and I'm the one who was fooled, but they seemed genuinely pissed at those trucks. There was a lot of rage overall — fistfights and guys getting hauled out by security while neutral bystanders poured beer on them, anger at the "bad" trucks.

I feel uncomfortable at the identification of monster truck rallies with so-called "white trash," along with bars and wrestling and so on. But I swear I felt like the target audience reallywas confused, angry people. And that's who I think is showing up at Trump rallies and yelling and getting worked up: Confused, often stupid, angry people.

And all kinds of other layers of complexity overlap here, which is why I should probably keep my yap shut.
posted by argybarg at 9:43 PM on September 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


Miko& Holgate, apologies for sounding rather chewey and being that Bossons on the wall.
posted by clavdivs at 9:44 PM on September 12, 2016


The stuff about "yelling at monster truck rallies" is clearly aiming at a particular demographic

anecdata, but I did see someone bloviating on social media about driving his raised-up truck into town today to spew diesel smoke at the "wussy Prius-driving" protestors.

Clearly there's a substantial cohort of the middle class who are Trump-friendly -- including people who white-flighted themselves into the outer burbs "for the schools" and took on a wearying commute for their jobs -- but exactly what kind of conversation can you have there?
posted by holgate at 9:49 PM on September 12, 2016


Final edition. Why Miko, I thought history would provide some clue as to those who may have tried to change or try too, this cultural of dominant white males...hmm, pretty tall order historically. How about the countries first elected female senator (Hattie Caraway) did she try? Does her being first serve as a small victory to fight dominant behavior?

White, right. Well, we could use the post civil war elections of Republicans in southern states...but the Democratic Party ended that nonsense and now, LBJ seems to get the all the cred


Could you consider aiming to be slightly more lucid than the Oracle of Delphi in here?
posted by one_bean at 9:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm seriously learning a lot about these weird divisions among Protestants in this thread. Growing up Catholic in a Catholic school there was just Catholic and Protestant (and other.) In everyday adult life in Texas, it feels like Southern Baptist (White or Black, those are usually in different churches), Other Christian, or Other (where Catholic falls somewhere right above Jewish but definitely not lumped in with the other Christians.)

The latest thing in my immediate area are "Cowboy Churches" where you go in your jeans and boots and according to one report they get up to the really freaky stuff like speaking in tongues.
posted by threeturtles at 9:51 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


(clav: don't ever feel the need to apologise. I might not end up agreeing with you but I'll always -- 15 years and counting of always -- take away something to think hard about.)
posted by holgate at 9:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Look, I don't feel 100% on what I'm about to write. It's kind of unpleasant and possibly wrong. But I think that there's a certain number of people who are ... kind of stupid. Or incurious. Or simple. And the world has become an unforgiving place for them. They'll never have very good jobs, they'll never be like the families in commercials. And this makes them angry. And maybe they were also kind of angry to begin with.

There's a culture of angry to belong to. Yelling at wrestling, yelling at monster truck rallies, fighting in bars. The people who do much of the above are just not very smart, or they're smart but emotionally damaged.


But here it sounds like you may have confused Steven Seagal movie characters with real people.
posted by zennie at 10:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Exactly. I did want to mention how educated/middle-class whites are a key part of Trump's base, and are likely just as racist if not more.

Doesn't surprise me one bit. There's been some talk in these threads about how education should make people less racist, or better at critical thinking. My experience has been that it can, but it's no guarantee.

A lot of people flip the other way: they use education to get a good job, so they can live comfortably in a little bubble where they are never challenged, never have to engage in uncomfortable social interactions and so on. Racism flourishes in those places. I lived in a suburb that was 99% white for some years. I used to joke that I was probably literally the only Middle Eastern guy there. (Never saw another.) I stopped talking to each and every person I knew there after their reactions to Ferguson. (It wasn't too far away, and the things they said were unforgivable... but while they'd all seen plenty of black people, I doubt they'd ever actually been friends with even the token One Black Friend.)

I bet there are Trump voters there, and I bet the ones who are believe that their income and privilege will protect them from whatever chaos he causes while he's busy doing a few things they want. It's easy to vote Evil if you don't think you'll get any on your shoes.
posted by mordax at 10:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


but poor rural whites aren't the base of his support.

This is very much my anecdotal experience. The right-wingers I know, either family/old friends scattered around the country, or the RWs living in my immediate neighborhood, are suburban middle class, college-educated and homeowners in many cases. Despite their white privilege they see themselves as victims, in a standoff against the encroaching bathroom-perverting/thugish black/US Msuslim jihadists.

Join me for a depressing family holiday sometime, or work with me in my precinct on election day if you'd like to hear the darkness. (Nothing like your nurse sister insisting all American Muslims are jihadists. Cos an expert at their Baptist church said so. Or her grandson, a college senior, declaring that the country works despite diversity, not because of it, and joining Drumpf in his mancrush on Putin. And we wont even get into the gun debates.)
posted by NorthernLite at 10:01 PM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Polling shows he is faring relatively poorly for a Republican amongst college-educated whites, actually.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:08 PM on September 12, 2016


But the Rambo-is-a-hero person will see Donald Trump as the guy who was strong on TV, and the guy who says we're going to win and keep bad people away. I don't care where the hell you're from, supporting Donald Trump because "you're fired" and "he tells it like it is" and "he's strong" is the mark of a person who is not very bright — is, in fact, deeply confused and doesn't think very well.

Two things about this:

1) People are not always able to articulate the deeper reasons why a candidate appeals to them. This is not limited to just conservatives. We're not always aware of the sociocultural forces moving us in certain directions.

2) When you talk about heroes, strength, and getting rid of the bad people, your conclusion is that people who think this way are not very bright. But you're hinting at the classic conservative, valuing loyalty, authority, obedience, social order, cohesiveness, etc. It's not being simple or confused, necessarily; I think you're just at a loss to explain a person who fundamentally thinks and reacts in different ways than you. Different from me, too. But wouldn't it be more insightful to say, even if this person can't articulate it himself, that fear, uncertainty, terrorism, economic collapse, social destabilization, diversity past a comfort zone, etc. have caused them to push back at a world they see as lacking in order, authority, obedience, and all those classic values they are basically hardwired culturally and psychologically to respond to? Just a thought. It makes more sense to me than assuming huge swaths of people I disagree with are not bright.
posted by naju at 10:15 PM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


(None of that gets us very far in figuring out how to convince people, if you can. So we're still in trouble if the goal is to change hearts and minds. But it at least gets us to a point where we're seeing other people's concerns a bit more clearly)
posted by naju at 10:31 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I expect Democratic voter turnout to be low for just these reasons.

I would take that bet. I expect it will be high among all demographics except 18-24 year olds.
posted by Justinian at 11:00 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


More seriously, one of Clinton's most effective strategies was attacking Sanders via his supporters. It's interesting how that strategy does and doesn't work in the general.

Once you have made every last person who wasn't behind you your enemy, there isn't much time and space left for rebuilding bridges. We'll have to see how that goes in November.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:14 PM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would take that bet. I expect it will be high among all demographics except 18-24 year olds.

I guess we can bookmark and revisit. A low millenial turnout could be disastrous. I'm amazed at the hubris of this thinking.
posted by naju at 11:16 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


>I would take that bet. I expect it will be high among all demographics except 18-24 year olds.

I guess we can bookmark and revisit. A low millenial turnout could be disastrous. I'm amazed at the hubris of this thinking.


Don't forget though that the early cohort of millennials (those born in early 80s) are now hitting their 30s... expecting depressed turnout amongst a certain political segment of the 18-24 demo is different than expecting depressed turnout for all millennials.

I also think that the "no turnout" segment of that demo will shrink notably if the race looks close come election day... I have precisely no data to back this up, but I just cannot imagine that the number of young progressive millennials willing to risk a Trump presidency rather than hold their noses and vote for Clinton is enormous.
posted by modernnomad at 11:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


BREAKING: US flies two nuclear-capable supersonic bombers over South Korea in show of force against the North after its nuclear test.

Continuing the press's current trends towards accuracy, the aircraft in question were B-1s, which (along with F-15C/Ds, F-22s, and A-10s) are one of the few combat aircraft currently in service with the US that are not nuclear-capable supersonic bombers. They had their nuclear capability stripped years and years ago.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:23 PM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Yeah, thanks for explaining what millenials are, I'm aware :)
posted by naju at 11:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


argybarg: Maybe it was all theater and I'm the one who was fooled

For future reference, the term for what you were is a mark.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:29 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Could you consider aiming to be slightly more lucid than the Oracle of Delphi in here?

Thats a big request and I'm fresh out of Henbane.

I'm pointing out how Long comparisons to Trump are funny and reaching. Many people compared Long to Hitler in 1933. He hated that and called hitler a "sumbitch".
Ok, Huey didn't play the race game, he fought against the establishment.
Scared the piss out of FDR because well, imagine George Orwell is coming to the states and the first person he wants to see, Long. A German naval officer came to call, Huey kept him waiting and met him in a green robe. Man knew how to use the press, man invented the modern campaign.
Long canvassed for Caraway and most historians agree that without Longs help, she would have lost. What were Caraways political views?
Who followed Caraway.
Who did he mentor?
see, the trick is in perception. Long redefined the rules of politics when he decided to defend someone accused of espionage and attacked the prosecution, something rarely done and won. He name branded himself, re-wrote the rules and went on the offensive. The big three of modern politics.
Both candadites are using that same playbook. Look at this thread for your proof, people would vote for a ham sandwich before trump. (I'm voting ergot rye)
Huey had the same blind support from people and not the ones he bought or bullied.
I guess the trick is not who is blind or why, it's weither they do anything to assure thier candidates win and if that anything is worth it.
Most of know the answer to that.
posted by clavdivs at 11:33 PM on September 12, 2016


Ergot rye...like free gratis.
posted by clavdivs at 11:35 PM on September 12, 2016


From the HillaryClinton.com blog:
Donald Trump, Pepe the frog, and white supremacists: an explainer
posted by p3t3 at 11:37 PM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I guess we can bookmark and revisit. A low millenial turnout could be disastrous. I'm amazed at the hubris of this thinking.

A low millennial turnout could be disastrous. So could a low African American turnout. Or a low Latino turnout. Or a low college-educated white woman turnout. I don't see what hubris has to do with any of that though.

If you think I meant I don't care about possibly low turnout (or possibly high third-party voting) among millennials; no, I care. I just think that it will likely be made up for among college educated white voters and other groups. Generally speaking its very hard to excite all parts of the electorate equally. Obama couldn't do it, Sanders couldn't do it, and Clinton can't do it.
posted by Justinian at 11:59 PM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


To put it another way, Clinton and Obama's coalitions are very similar with the exception that Clinton substitutes support among college educated white women for white 18-24 year olds.
posted by Justinian at 12:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I guess the trick is not who is blind or why, it's weither they do anything to assure thier candidates win and if that anything is worth it.
Most of know the answer to that.


Ok so I guess I'll take that as a no.
posted by one_bean at 12:02 AM on September 13, 2016


I just think that it will likely be made up for among college educated white voters and other groups.

Well, this is what I meant by hubris. I think it's folly to assume this (OK, you're not assuming, you're thinking). Let's hope you're right.
posted by naju at 12:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also this - "Generally speaking its very hard to excite all parts of the electorate equally" - is doubtless true, but I'm not sure alienating many young pro-Sanders progressives so thoroughly was very smart as far as these things go. Anyway, this ship has sailed, don't mean to get into it too deeply.
posted by naju at 12:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is that what being "conservative" is, valuing the past--"tradition"--over all else? I mean, I'm all for people being into their group's culture, especially if they are oppressed and find strength there. But if your "culture" is just a toxic soup of lies, racism, and shit, and you worry about losing that? I have no words.
posted by maxwelton at 12:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also this - "Generally speaking its very hard to excite all parts of the electorate equally" - is doubtless true, but I'm not sure alienating many young pro-Sanders progressives so thoroughly was very smart as far as these things go. Anyway, this ship has sailed, don't mean to get into it too deeply.

I've yet to work out (from the UK) exactly what Clinton is supposed to have done that alienated the pro-Sanders progressives other than refused to give the nomination to Sanders after having won by over three million votes.
posted by Francis at 12:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [60 favorites]


A low millenial turnout could be disastrous

In 2012, 20 million 18-29 year olds voted. There were 36 million non-white voters. There are an estimated 5 million more Latino voters eligible this year than in 2012. 78% of Latino voters are equally or more excited to vote this year than in 2012.
posted by one_bean at 1:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Her, her camp, pro-Clinton pundits, supporters - I can think of a few things that alienated a few people, between these groups. She's not responsible for all of their actions, of course. Sanders is not responsible for the actions of his people either, and he deserves some blame for what went down. I think it's fair to say things went a little off-kilter. The reality we have is that many feel alienated; you can argue about whether that could've been prevented, but I think it's unfortunate and a lighter touch all around would have benefited the general election more.
posted by naju at 1:03 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Obama won 18-29 year olds by 23 points; he won Latinos by 44. Clinton is going to win the general the same way she won the primary - with overwhelming support from non-white voters.
posted by one_bean at 1:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


overwhelming support from non-white voters.

Interesting NPR article - For Some Black Voters, 'Not Trump' Is The Number One Reason To Support Clinton
So far, she has a major advantage. Polls show Clinton consistently capturing upwards of 90 percent of support from African-Americans nationally. (Donald Trump is polling in the low single digits; as NPR's Sam Sanders has reported, his recent outreach to black voters is falling flat).

So it's not a question of how African-Americans vote. It is, though, a question of how many.
...
"Where I hoped we would be after eight years of Obama is not here," said Ewell-Lewis, 51, at a coffee shop in Chapel Hill. "I didn't think we would be looking at a Trump presidency."

She says she'll vote for Clinton in November.

"And, the reason why — well, she's not Trump," Ewell-Lewis said with a laugh. "She's not Donald Trump."

Ewell-Lewis respects Clinton and thinks she is smart and capable, but she says she's not as enthusiastic about her as she was for Obama. And she is concerned other black voters might feel the same.

"It wasn't just the policies that got them to come out; it was whether they trusted the candidate to understand their issues, to be committed and dedicated to their community, and I just don't know if that trust has really been established [with Clinton]," she said.

I'm not in love with her like I was — I used to say Obama's like my Michael Jackson when I was growing up — I was in love with him like crazy, like that with posters on my wall, sitting there staring at him.

Ewell-Lewis points to some of Clinton's mistakes with black voters in the South Carolina primary in 2008. She says some young voters — like her daughter — still have questions about Clinton's integrity.

"I think she's had missteps there with the Black Lives Matter movement," said Ewell-Lewis. "And she's had missteps there that have been noted by young people."

Still, Ewell-Lewis says she'll be volunteering for Clinton because she is so terrified of the alternative.

Her husband, Ken Lewis, says he'll be voting for Clinton too; but he questions whether "not Trump" is enough of a motivator — especially for black voters suffering from high unemployment or harsh policing.

"I think 'not Trump' is not a sufficient rationale for getting people to vote who may be losing faith in the political process, frankly," said Lewis, a lawyer who went to Harvard Law School with Michelle Obama.

Holly and Ken were dedicated Obama volunteers. They even drove their kids to South Carolina to knock on doors as a family during the 2008 primaries. This November, Lewis isn't feeling the same kind of drive.

"I think Hillary Clinton has really struggled to articulate how her election would represent a kind of progress that would be meaningful in African-American communities," he said.
It goes on like that... anecdotally it reads as a pretty accurate reflection of what I've been seeing.

All this aside, where does this absolute confidence in winning come from, I wonder? I'm seeing it so much, and it makes me very nervous on a visceral level. There are polls, but taking them with a grain of salt and hitting the pavement hard seems wise.
posted by naju at 1:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


The Pepe The Frog Explainer Simplified:
"Let me get this straight: Trump’s presidential campaign is posting memes associated with white supremacy online?"

"Yes."

[...]

"This is horrifying."

"Yes."

"What can I do?"

"Vote."
posted by mikelieman at 1:25 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


So reports from my friend's FB page, where she baited a couple of Trump supporters into explaining why they are declaring themselves deplorables.

And someone finally gave a real answer, which is that people don't like being called racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic every time they speak their opinion. And they feel like their opinions didn't use to be wrong and now they are. (Though it was phrased differently. He thinks everyone calling them "names" is wrong.) So "reclaiming" this word deplorable is supposed to, I think, point out how ridiculous all this labeling of sexism and racism etc is.

At which I pretty much just want to scream HAVE YOU LISTENED TO TRUMP? How can you listen to Trump without thinking that he's definitely ACTUALLY RACIST AND SEXIST AND XENOPHOBIC. I mean, honestly, if the problem is people just can't identify that what Trump is selling is actually xenophobia and racism....then I don't know. Like, you really have to want to give him every excuse and chance in the book to excuse his bullshit that way.

If I were being less charitable I'd characterize this guys comments as "look, I just want to dislike women and black people (for bullshit stereotypical reasons) and not get called sexist and racist for it, ok?"
posted by threeturtles at 1:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [30 favorites]


(Also 100% anecdotally, and thus admittedly fairly useless - I haven't polled anyone, but among my friends/associates whites have been the most enthusiastically pro-Clinton and also the most confident of her win; non-whites have been noticeably muted in comparison. I don't think any in my circles have acted that way, actually, and more than a few have been guarded and critical of her. I think there's a potential assumption to be made that since white people have seen horrifying racism come from Trump and his supporters, they must assume that non-white voters are going to turn out en masse. I don't think that's an assumption that is necessarily safe to make, polls notwithstanding)
posted by naju at 1:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


All this aside, where does this absolute confidence in winning come from, I wonder?

Well let's see on the one hand all of the poll aggregators have had Clinton winning for about a year (except for a few aggregators a few days after the RNC), and the most accurate aggregator from 2008 and 2012 has her at 90%, and the two states she needs to put her over 270 (Pennsylvania and Wisconsin) haven't voted Republican in at least 28 years and have shown Clinton leading in 99% and 100% of the polls, respectively, and the national demographics are, per my last comments, even more favorable for Democrats than they were four years ago; but on the other hand NPR found a black Clinton volunteer in South Carolina who doesn't love Clinton as much as she loves Obama which, anecdotally, fits what naju is seeing. Oh and some young pro-Bernie progressives were thoroughly alienated - not by Trump's racism and bigotry but by Clinton's primary campaign not having a light enough touch.
posted by one_bean at 1:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [40 favorites]


Not today's news, but the article just went on and on:
USA TODAY exclusive: Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills, by Steve Reilly, June 9, 2016

I think the worst bit was
Despite the Trumps’ assertion that their companies only refuse payment to contractors “when somebody does a bad job,” he has sometimes offered to hire those same contractors again. It’s a puzzling turn of events, since most people who have a poor experience with a contractor, and who refuse to pay and even fight the contractor in court, aren’t likely to offer to rehire them.

Nevertheless, such was the case for the Friels. After submitting the final bill for the Plaza casino cabinet-building in 1984, Paul Friel said he got a call asking that his father, Edward, come to the Trump family’s offices at the casino for a meeting. There Edward, and some other contractors, were called in one by one to meet with Donald Trump and his brother, Robert Trump.

“He sat in a room with nine guys,” Paul Friel said. “We found out some of them were carpet guys. Some of them were glass guys. Plumbers. You name it.”

In the meeting, Donald Trump told his father that the company’s work was inferior, Friel said, even though the general contractor on the casino had approved it. The bottom line, Trump told Edward Friel, was the company wouldn't get the final payment. Then, Friel said Trump added something that struck the family as bizarre. Trump told his dad that he could work on other Trump projects in the future.

“We have hundreds of millions of dollars of construction projects underway. And we have, for the most part, exceptional contractors on them who get paid, and get paid quickly. But it would be irresponsible if my father paid contractors who did lousy work. And he doesn’t do that.”
Ivanka Trump, Executive Vice President of The Trump Organization

“Wait a minute,” Paul Friel said, recalling his family's reaction to his dad’s account of the meeting. “Why would the Trump family want a company who they say their work is inferior to work for them in the future?”


I'd only really thought about the undocumented Polish workers he had stiffed for doing demolition work on Trump Tower including unprotected stuff with asbsestos.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Oh and some young pro-Bernie progressives were thoroughly alienated - not by Trump's racism and bigotry but by Clinton's primary campaign not having a light enough touch.

My reading is that it was quite the reverse. pro-Bernie progressives were alienated not by Clinton's primary campaign not having a light enough touch, but by Clinton's primary campaign not dispelling the myths that Bernie Sanders built up around himself. By letting the person who has been in DC for 25 years claim he was an outsider without pushback. By letting the former Chair of the Senate Committee on Veterans Affairs and the Minority Leader on the Senate Budget Committee appear to be this outsider knight in shining armour. So because Clinton was only lobbing softballs at Bernie they think that their candidate is spotless and, despite all the evidence to the contrary, an outsider.
posted by Francis at 2:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Here are the polls I'm seeing, which look good for Clinton but don't seem like an absolute blowout (I'm not very well-versed though).

Reuters - "Polling aggregators, which calculate averages of major polls, have shown that Clinton’s lead has been shrinking for the past few weeks. Those averages put her advantage over Trump at between three and six percentage points. Some of the more recent individual polls, however, have the race even tighter."

NYT Latest Election Poll - Clinton, 43%, Trump, 41% in a polling average. Upshot: 79% chance of winning. "A victory by Mr. Trump remains quite possible: Mrs. Clinton’s chance of losing is about the same as the probability that an N.F.L. kicker misses a 45-yard field goal."

FiveThirtyEight: Clinton has a 69.8 chance of winning

I'm seeing a +2 lead reported in most places currently, including RealClearPolitics. This all looks pretty good, but +2 doesn't seem like a margin that should lead anyone to be extremely confident, and I think there are a lot of unpredictable variables that could come into play.

I distrust polling methodologies somewhat and I think some of those concerns could come into play in this election. There are also, I have zero doubt, several Republican plans for voter disenfranchisement particularly for non-white voters.

None of this is my expertise so please break it down for me or provide a link that will educate if that's what's needed. What I have a problem with is not a sense she has a good chance of winning; I do share that. it's an absolute hubristic confidence, which I see zero use for ideologically or practically.
posted by naju at 2:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm less worried about Clinton winning than I am about vote splitting keeping congress controlled by Republicans.
posted by PenDevil at 2:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


So, that one's a dud – nothing's being "lost" except the privilege to blithely treat one's own culture as normal and proper (and as the only culture that's normal and proper), and to act without thought or consideration for others.

That's the whole thing. The discussion of lost culture is a misconstrual. What is being lost is privilege, and even folks who would shoot you rather than admit to privilege recognize that. This is why it's not only difficult, but actually counter-productive to entertain a discussion about White people being upset about losing their "culture." There's no way to have the conversation that isn't papering over the very specific racial politics inherent in the complaint. There is no way to be empathetic to the loss that does not pretend that what is at issue is something other than unearned privilege.

This makes it all a very tough problem. People are unlikely to accept a "get over it, racist" response, but that's exactly what they deserve. What you get instead is deep seated and seething racist resentment. Unfortunately, a better person than me is going to have to figure out what to do about that. I have such low tolerance for whining from people about the racist or sexist privilege they have lost that I am not good for anything except pointing to the racists. This isn't some sort of humble brag, I think there has to be a way to talk about it without alienating people, or you end up with Michael Douglas "Falling Down" level bullshit. And the people who feel this the most are armed.

You know, in a certain way this is like a mirror of the abortion issue. It's clear that some people think that abortion is so horrific that they cannot conceive of any morality that admits to the procedure. Other people feel like those people should butt the hell out of women's lives. These two groups are not speaking remotely the same language, and it's hard for me to see how they ever would be. They start from radically different premises. I feel the same way about the "loss of culture [sic]" Whites. They are starting from premises that I not only disagree with, but find odious and insupportable. I literally don't give a fuck about those people except in some very abstract, I don't want a vengeful God I don't believe in to wipe them from the Earth. But I don't think that's all that helpful.

I know about the truth and reconciliation commissions, but I have never understood them.
posted by OmieWise at 3:12 AM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


And if you just focus on Asheville itself? You aren't looking at Portland. It's a lot closer to say, Sedona maybe? It has the trappings of a liberal hippy granola town, but with a streak of anti-intellectual fear-mongering conspiracy-theory tinfoil hatting buffoonery about as wide as the town itself. This is a town where "honest, caring liberals" will tell you (and constantly tell me, damn Facebook) that 9/11 was an inside job, vaccines cause autism, chemtrails are real, blah blah blah. A metric FUCKTON of Asheville "liberals" may dislike Trump, but they are also densely Bernie or Busters. The young liberal millennials that live there want reproductive rights (as long as they don't have to vaccinate the kids they choose to have) and want to save the environment (as long as the Government takes the goddamn fluoride out of the water) and so on and so on. Almost all of my feed is clogged with Asheville men and women that HATE Sec. Clinton.

Having just spent 8 years in Portland, Asheville sounds just like Portland.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 4:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, NPR sure did itself proud in its 7 a.m. news summary just now. It reported that Trump was criticizing Clinton over the "basket of deplorables" remark, and played an audio clip of Trump using the line he's been using that hateful Hillary disparaged hard working people.

Of course, Clinton made clear that she was referring to the racist, sexist so-called "alt right" and their loathsome allies, and went out of her way to emphasize that she was not talking about disillusioned working class people. NPR probably knows this. And yet they let Trump lie to its listeners absolutely unchallenged, without putting his falsehood in any kind of context.

Memo to NPR: If maintaining a sense of balance leads you to broadcast lies, you're doing it wrong.
posted by Gelatin at 4:18 AM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


BREAKING: US flies two nuclear-capable supersonic bombers over South Korea in show of force against the North after its nuclear test.

Iranian rude gestures : ships shot out of the water :: North Korean nuclear test : ?!?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:26 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]






The brilliance of Hillary Clinton's 'deplorables':
...a few days later, the brilliance of Clinton's remark is becoming clearer. Yes, she got a few liberal commentators to take her side and defend the substance of it. But the far bigger benefit is that in the wake of her comment, some media figures decided to devise a "deplorables" quiz for Trump supporters. Is Person X deplorable? How about Person Y? The effect was to pressure Trump supporters not only to agree with Clinton's larger point but with her precise terminology.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [39 favorites]


Wait, so the reason that Pence won't call David Duke deplorable is that the Trump campaign doesn't want to resort to name-calling????

Scarcely a day after Trump gives an interview in which he called Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas," to say nothing of all the other name-calling that's his very stock in trade.

The very lameness of that excuse just reveals how much open appeals to racism, sexism and other --isms are vital to Trump's campaign.

In other words, Pence just proved Clinton right.
posted by Gelatin at 5:21 AM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


Pepe the frog wasn't always a racist symbol. He was a goofy reaction image that my kids would share with me. I even made a rare one for my son. It's scary how quickly the alt right were able to co-opt the image for their own nefarious interests. What else could they do that to?
posted by Biblio at 5:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Politico: Progressives draft staff blacklist for Clinton administration
Left-wing groups warn the Democratic nominee not to appoint Wall Street-linked Lael Brainard or Tom Nides to senior finance and economic jobs.

Aides to Sen. Elizabeth Warren have been meeting regularly with Clinton’s campaign policy advisers. Members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus are beginning to plan how they would lobby her White House on legislation. Activists are at the early stages of thinking through what community protests and digital organizing would look like to pressure a new Democratic president whom they’ve only ever grudgingly accepted.

Clinton, meanwhile, continues to take note of who is being active for her on the campaign and how, said a Democrat close to her, offering a little advice: if you want to have an impact in February, it helps to show up big in October.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Nate Silver gives GOP donors a closed-door presentation
Donors who participated in Silver's session besides Singer and Todd Ricketts included Ron Weiser, finance vice chairman of the Trump campaign; Betsy DeVos, a Michigan-based billionaire from one of the country's most powerful political families; Joe Craft, a Kentucky coal magnate and major Trump booster; and New York investor Cliff Asness.
Gross, Nate.
posted by sallybrown at 5:27 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


About Trump calling Warren "Pocohontas": I have zero idea what the context of this is, or was supposed to be, and since Trump is the Word Salad Shooter it pretty much wouldn't matter. That said, It's difficult to name women tougher and gutsiest than Elizabeth Warren--but Pocohontas, the historical figure, would be one of them. When I read that comparison, I'm like, wow, that's one hell of a compliment to Warren!
posted by Sublimity at 5:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


If I were being less charitable I'd characterize this guys comments as "look, I just want to dislike women and black people (for bullshit stereotypical reasons) and not get called sexist and racist for it, ok?"

I think this is pretty much the whole deal, honestly. It's not being a bigot that upsets them. They're a-ok with being bigots. It's anyone calling them bigots.
posted by winna at 5:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


If I were being less charitable I'd characterize this guys comments as "look, I just want to dislike women and black people (for bullshit stereotypical reasons) and not get called sexist and racist for it, ok?"

I guess I'm less charitable. I characterize most Trump supporters as being upset that they aren't allowed to be shitty to as many people as they used to. Hence the "concern" over bathrooms and cakes, which is bizzare unless you factor in the need to be shitty to someone.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:31 AM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


Nate Silver gives GOP donors a closed-door presentation

Gross, Nate.

I don't think this is exactly "burn the traitor" territory. Nate Silver gets a paycheck for explaining his election modeling? Can you believe he lets anyone listen to his podcast and not just registered democrats?
posted by dis_integration at 5:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Attendees said his insights were valuable, though they involved no information that wasn’t already on his website in one form or another.

....

Attendees noted to The Hill that Silver gave them no advice on strategy.

While I agree with the usual critique that Silver and 538 have gone kinda horse-race clickbait pundit-y, I'm not especially bothered by the fact that he talked to some jerks and then cashed their check.
posted by box at 5:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


Alcoholic angry fathers are who his base is driven by. More than "fear of losing white privilege" although that does seem to be a pre-requisite.

Pointing out the deplorableness of racism, etc, may swing voters, but where Mr.-Trump-voter really lives is in the toxic netherworld of having an alcoholic father.

It's not an either/or, it's a fundamental of it.
posted by petebest at 5:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


While I agree with the usual critique that Silver and 538 have gone kinda horse-race clickbait pundit-y, I'm not especially bothered that he talked to some jerks and then cashed their check.

For all we know he just conspicuously counted the money they paid him while intoning, "You guys are fuuuuucked."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


NYTimes: Candidate Gaffes Are Overrated; Health Concerns Could Influence Voters More
However, a modern precedent does exist for serious concerns about a candidate’s age and health. Ronald Reagan’s meandering closing statement in the first presidential debate during the 1984 campaign was widely perceived to have harmed him; one study estimated that the debate cost him about three percentage points in the polls. But Mr. Reagan made up this ground with a stronger performance during the second debate and went on to win re-election in a landslide over Walter Mondale.

For Mrs. Clinton, then, the goal is to quickly reassure voters, as Mr. Reagan appeared to do back in 1984, that she is in good health. If she does, the long-term consequences of her health episode are likely to be limited (though rumors and conspiracy theories will probably continue to circulate despite her campaign’s promise to release more medical information). But the lack of recent precedent for a more serious illness to a candidate means we cannot be confident about what effect it would have on voters.
So Reagan's meandering statement was "widely perceived to harm him" which means there was a dip in the polls followed by an upturn to previous levels. Doesn't sound like it harmed him at all in the long run. Plus you can't really compare meandering statements making Reagan sound like a doddering old fool with a swoon from overheating. Clinton will be fine and this bit of health concern will be a mere blip.


I have zero idea what the context of this is, or was supposed to be, and since Trump is the Word Salad Shooter it pretty much wouldn't matter. That said, It's difficult to name women tougher and gutsiest than Elizabeth Warren--but Pocohontas, the historical figure, would be one of them

It's quite a bit more racist than you realize. Trump proclaimed her Pocahontas over her claims to be part Native-American. He wanted to mock this claim but could not come up with another Native-American female name other than Pocahontas. If asked, I doubt he knows anything about the historical Pocahontas.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


I hope whoever did that Post cover has an experience soon where he realizes that he is perhaps irredeemably awful and goes to his bed and cries and cries and cries like a little baby, pleading with the universe for a sign that he is good, that his life is worthwhile in some way, and the universe is like *silence*
posted by angrycat at 5:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I was out with my senior-citizen dad yesterday and he got to talking politics with an acquaintance. The devolution of the conversation passed through "this is the worst election I've ever seen, can't stand either of them," took a turn into "now they're looking for someone to replace Hillary," and had me shaking my head at "it's funny how anyone who talks bad about Hillary winds up dead."

I still argue politics with him because he's a Potentially Recoverable Old Person. He can't stand Trump either, correctly identified the parade of Republican primary candidates as a clown car of yahoos, and doesn't watch Fox News because he doesn't have cable. My job is to provide deprogramming from the FWD: FWD: FWD: FWD: email chains and the Facebook rants to which he subjects himself.

My mother? She still thinks Sarah Palin was the asset on the McCain ticket and that she'll be a wonderful President someday. She is a Visit On Holidays And Have An Escape Route Handy Old Person.
posted by delfin at 5:40 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


On Pocahontas. There was a minor shitstorm a while back when it emerged that Warren had claimed some American Indian heritage based on family history, but little or no documentation, with some folks on the right claiming she had lied about this to gain some career advancement via racial set asides. So it's an affirmative action dog whistle dressed in patronising sexism, along with Trump calling Warren a liar. A trifecta.
posted by notyou at 5:40 AM on September 13, 2016 [30 favorites]


Pocahontas is not original to Trump, but had been a name the GOP has used for Warren since she was running against Scott Brown.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


> Donald Trump, Pepe the frog, and white supremacists: an explainer

From the article:
“We basically mixed Pepe in with Nazi propaganda, etc. We built that association,” one prominent white supremacist told the Daily Beast.
I feel like there's an interesting (probably coincidental?) link that goes back a bit farther. I was just at this exhibit at the Art Institute (which, if you're in Chicago & haven't seen it yet, you should before it closes on Sunday) and they had on loan from MoMA Peter Blume's (1937) The Eternal City, which looks like this [jpg, 1280x905, 360KB].

In The Eternal City, Blume depicts Mussolini as a garish green jack-in-the-box springing out over a nightmarish scene taking place amongst Roman ruins. It was quite controversial at the time, and its banning from the 1939 Corcoran Biennial led to even more controversy -- banning an anti-fascist painting had its own fascist overtones.

Anyway, look at that and tell me if it isn't reminiscent of Pepe....

In the exhibition catalogue, Sarah L Burn's (2016) article Death, Decay, and Dystopia: Painting the American Wasteland in the 1930s explains [emphasis mine]:
Blume based his caricature of Mussolini on a colossal papier mache effigy he had seen at the Decennial Exposition celebrating the tenth anniversary of the 1922 Fascist March on Rome. The colors were intrinsic to the meaning: "I made the red lips clash with the green of the head," he explained. The combination had to be "strident and like nothing else in the picture: antithesis, dissonance."
I can't help but notice the similarities between the surrealistic antifascist The Eternal City and the surreal protofascist The Deplorables. Background of destruction? Check. Bizarre juxtaposition of the cartoonish with the real? Check. Lurid green head with clashing lips as a symbol of white supremacy? Check. And even though I know it's a reach, I like to imagine that whoever pushed the Pepe meme at the alt-right is trolling them with the resemblance to Blume's critical caricature, getting the alt-right to unwittingly satirize themselves.

In Death, Decay, and Dystopia: Painting the American Wasteland in the 1930s, Burns remarks on the exclusion from the Corcoran Biennial: "The Eternal City does not warn explicitly of Fascism as a force with the potential to destroy the American republic. Still, it seems to have struck a nerve close to home." She then goes on to juxtapose [img; page on google books] it against Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here, which had become a best-seller while Blume was working on The Eternal City, quoting Lewis' journalist Doremus' dire predictions of what would happen if the dictatorial Senator Buzz Windrip were to defeat FDR: "People will think they're electing him to create more economic security. Then watch the Terror! God knows there's been enough indication that we can have tyranny in America---"

*Sigh.*
posted by Westringia F. at 5:44 AM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


a name the GOP has used for Warren since she was running against Scott Brown.

Which worked out great for him.
posted by chris24 at 5:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


WaPo; Donald Trump, joined by Ivanka Trump, to outline child care policy
A campaign memo shared early Tuesday with The Washington Post shows that Trump’s plan “will rewrite the tax code to allow working parents to deduct from their income taxes child-care expenses for up to four children and elderly dependents.”

That deduction would be capped at the “average cost of care” in the state of residence, and it would not be available to individuals earning more than $250,000 or a couple earning more than $500,000.[...]

Also included in Tuesday’s speech: additional spending rebates through the Earned Income Tax Credit, expanded deduction opportunities for stay-at-home parents, and revised federal savings accounts to set aside funds for child development and educational needs.

Another policy proposal will be guaranteeing “six weeks of paid maternity leave” through an amendment of current unemployment insurance policies.
This is the dangerous Trump-- serious policy and Ivanka sitting at his side to make sure he doesn't go off message.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Kyle Griffin: Fox hosts say Dr. Oz told them HE will see Trump's medical records before Trump & will reveal them to Trump on air


They are claiming that a different doctor, not the fool who wrote the note, is examining him now and those doctor's notes will be turned over to Dr. Oz. Dr. Oz will then analyze the notes and announce the results which will be "a surprise to Donald Trump.

New Game Show idea? Will Dr. Oz become part of Trump Broadcasting? And why do I get the feeling that there will be nothing to announce other than a bit of extra weight? No doubt Dr. Oz will proclaim him to be the healthiest 70 year old he has ever seen in his life. It is ludicrous that Trump's campaign believes a TV Doctor's testimony is as good as thorough Medical Records released to the public.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Why? Everything ELSE in Trump's campaign is built on How Trump Looks On TV >> All Other Considerations, and it's gotten him this far.
posted by delfin at 5:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also free ice cream for all children under 8 every day during summer and a brand new USA bowling ball for all men on their birthday. Plus everyone gets a new pair of Air Jordans. And free maid service! Plus the stars on the flag will be made classy as it deserves by making them 21k gold.

A Trump Presidency will be rainbows and lollipops.
posted by petebest at 5:58 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'll be the happiest person on earth if Dr. Oz tells Trump he has 3 Stooges Syndrome.
posted by mmoncur at 5:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Dr. Oz will then analyze the notes and announce the results which will be "a surprise to Donald Trump.

"You are the father... of a racist, misogynist, isolationist faux-populist movement."
posted by Etrigan at 5:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh Lord, we're going to get a week of "Why won't Hillary go on Dr. Oz?" aren't we.
posted by mmoncur at 6:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]





And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz. Is it likely to override some people's negative perception of Trump? Is he big enough to do that? Or will it backfire on Oz short and long term with more people who will wonder what in the hell he's doing with Trump?

At least Oz has made it pretty clear that he's okay with the guy which doesn't say much about his character. Not that he was some great guy before or anything. But now he said to the world, hey I'm okay with the basket. Ugh
posted by Jalliah at 6:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton has a video/ad out responding to Trump's attack on deplorables. And it crushes him.
posted by chris24 at 6:12 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz

Dr Oz (BA Harvard, MD Penn, tenured at Columbia) is like a walking one-man demonstration that the ivy league ain't all that.
posted by dis_integration at 6:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [31 favorites]


Sopan Deb: Trump aide says 6 weeks of guaranteed paid maternity leave will be paid for by eliminating fraud in unemployment insurance.
posted by PenDevil at 6:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Eliminating fraud! Of course - it's so simple, I don't know why anyone didn't see that sooner!

(Trump and the Trumplings will be exempt, right? Because, to be honest, they've had some . . scrapes.)
posted by petebest at 6:24 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz
It depends on who is doing the perceiving. Anyone who reads or watches CNN has seen stories about his being sued for selling snake oil, for being the target of a petition by about 2,000 doctors to have his privileges as a cardiothoracic surgeon revoked, his disastrous testimony on Capitol Hill, etc. etc. etc. But his show gets decent ratings and has been renewed through 2019. Since his show is partnered with Fox, there is probably not too much concern about the fact that he is extraordinarily unethical and looked upon with disdain by thousands of medical professionals.
posted by xyzzy at 6:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


And now I'm sitting here contemplating the popularity and perceived 'authority' of Dr. Oz

Hazarding a total guess, anyone who might be suckered in by his "expert advice" was either already voting for Trump, or hates Dr. Oz and isn't going to be swayed. I don't see Oz pulling any undecideds over.
posted by Twain Device at 6:33 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


anyone who might be suckered in by his "expert advice" was either already voting for Trump, or hates Dr. Oz and isn't going to be swayed. I don't see Oz pulling any undecideds over.

I don't know. He was in Oprah magazine and on her TV network for a while. She dumped him for his BS, but I think he picked up a lot of fuzzy-thinking adherents who might otherwise be Clinton-sympathetic.

But on the other hand, this is just today's sideshow and it probably won't influence many people one way or the other. I'm kind of feeling like a lot of the "undecideds," who are so ignorant about how politics works anyway, are more and more just going to elect to sit this one out.
posted by Miko at 6:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Thanks xyzzy and Twain Device,

Last time I can recall anything about him beyond just knowing he has a show is back when he seemed super popular on Oprah and got his own show because of it. Didn't know the extent of what has happened since then. I see that Oprah dropped him in 2015 as well.
posted by Jalliah at 6:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]




Trump aide says 6 weeks of guaranteed paid maternity leave will be paid for by eliminating fraud in unemployment insurance.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't know if I've seen it said anywhere, but a simple and straightforward solution to the whole healthgazi thing, the question being whether it actually indicates she has "less stamina" that the supposed "most fit person to ever run for President", would be for Trump to voluntarily be infected with pneumonia, and we can see whether or not he suddenly becomes so exhausted that he starts constantly saying and doing completely injudicious things.

I mean he says he can walk on fire, so let's see him walk on fire like she was doing all last week...
posted by XMLicious at 6:50 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Eliminating fraud! Of course - it's so simple, I don't know why anyone didn't see that sooner!

Conservative mythology always posits that there are billions of dollars of fraud and waste just sitting there waiting to be mined although they can't actually tell you specifically what they would actually do to save all that money.
posted by octothorpe at 6:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]


White House Woman Want to Be in the Room Where It Happens:
As late as the Eisenhower administration, the only women working in the West Wing were secretaries – and they were barred from dining with men in the White House mess.

. . .

Anne Wexler, who served as Jimmy Carter’s assistant for public outreach, complained that chief of staff Hamilton Jordan never invited her to a key daily meeting where aides offered ideas to the president, even though Jordan publicly described Wexler as “the most competent woman in Democratic politics.” “Personally, I never spent a great deal of time with the president,” Wexler said in a 1980 interview for Carter’s presidential library. “I think that was a mistake on [Carter’s] part.”

. . .

After Bush was elected in 2000, longtime aide Karen Hughes said she recoiled when incoming chief of staff Andy Card tried to establish a 24-7 work schedule. Hughes said she called Bush and told him that she didn’t “have to be there at 10:30 at night” to do her job. Bush responded quickly, Hughes said, telling Card: “Don’t run off all my working mothers!” Although Card made accommodations, Hughes left the White House after a year and a half, saying the job was too hard on her “homesick” Texan family. That fact hit her one Saturday morning, she said, when her teenage son asked her to bake him some brownies and she was simply too exhausted to do it.

. . .

So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own. “We just started doing it, and made a purpose of doing it. It was an everyday thing,” said one former Obama aide who requested anonymity to speak frankly. Obama noticed, she and other said, and began calling more often on women and junior aides.
As many times as my formerly Bernie Bro friend complains about "women shouldn't just vote for a woman because she's a woman," I read stories like this and just...
posted by sallybrown at 6:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [124 favorites]


But here it sounds like you may have confused Steven Seagal movie characters with real people.

Steven Seagal is a real person and is currently doing a friendship tour with some of the worst dictators in the world.
posted by srboisvert at 6:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump aide says 6 weeks of guaranteed paid maternity leave will be paid for by eliminating fraud in unemployment insurance.

Donnie Trump wants to steal the money I work hard for to PAY **MY** UNEMPLOYMENT **INSURANCE** PREMIUMS, to be used for an new Government Entitlement Program!
posted by mikelieman at 6:57 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]




Conservative mythology always posits that there are billions of dollars of fraud and waste just sitting there waiting to be mined although they can't actually tell you specifically what they would actually do to save all that money.

Chopping all those "welfare queens" off the rolls. The ones that they just know are there, but the liberal social-work mafia wants them to keep voting for Democrats so they pretend not to see their TVs and cell phones and Cadillacs.
posted by Etrigan at 7:00 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own. “We just started doing it, and made a purpose of doing it. It was an everyday thing,”

That's fucking amazing. Thanks sallybrown for sharing it.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:07 AM on September 13, 2016 [50 favorites]


"Important note on Trump's 6-week maternity leave plan: it's NOT full paid maternity leave. It's a safety net: 6 weeks unemployment benefits"

So then, not maternity leave. It's making Family Medical Leave Act provide unemployment in additional to short-term disability? And FMLA is 12 weeks, right?
posted by mikelieman at 7:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]




they can't actually tell you specifically what they would actually do to save all that money.


I don't know if Springfield needs that Bear Patrol.
posted by zutalors! at 7:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


And the FMLA thing *is* Hillary Clinton's plan... Sheesh...
posted by mikelieman at 7:16 AM on September 13, 2016


The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes

Kick out undocumented immigrants and you create a $12 billion hole in Social Security.

"The Social Security system has grown increasingly reliant on this stream of revenue, particularly as aging Baby Boomers start to retire. Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration, estimates that about 1.8 million immigrants were working with fake or stolen Social Security cards in 2010, and he expects that number to reach 3.4 million by 2040. He calculates that undocumented immigrants paid $13 billion into the retirement trust fund that year, and only got about $1 billion in benefits. “We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010,” Gross concluded in a 2013 review of the impact of undocumented immigrants on Social Security."
posted by chris24 at 7:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [37 favorites]


"Kick out undocumented immigrants and you create...."

Speaking of. Where's that proof that Melina Trump didn't commit visa fraud?
posted by mikelieman at 7:20 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Washington City Paper on the Alt-Right's plans to take over the District.

"Even if Donald Trump loses the presidential election, Jenkins says these radical ideologues want to insinuate themselves into mainstream politics....

...He says the alt right is undergoing a rebranding. Indeed, they unveiled a snazzy new 'synthpop'-inspired logo Friday. Instead of Nazi outfits and Confederate flags, these guys dress in business suits and sport Northern accents."
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd like to call attention to this line from emjaybee's comment: It's a measure of how fragile those illusions are that they can't endure even the mildest questions.

That's exactly the problem with modern movement conservatism and the reason it invested so much money in constructing an impermeable information bubble around itself. George H. W. Bush was exactly correct that Reagan's supply-side economics codswallop was "voodoo economics," but even during the ongoing economic disaster in Kansas, that doctrine can't be questioned, because it's the justification for those sweet, sweet tax breaks for the wealthy.

It's the reason why Congressional Republicans won't let the CDC even collect data on gun deaths (a tacit admission, if there ever was one, that said data would suggest policy changes they don't want).

It's the reason climate change denial has taken such a deep hold among Republicans.

It's the reason George W. Bush's administration never quite managed to voice an honest, compelling reason for their desired invasion of Iraq.

It's the reason Republicans officials can't admit that Obamacare is a success.

It's the reason so-called "moderate" pundits like Thomas Friedman and David Brooks keep writing that they wished Obama would propose some kind of sensible, reasonable compromise policy that, if they bothered to check, turns out to be exactly what Obama is proposing.

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful force, and it's painful to be confronted by evidence that one's cherished beliefs are simply wrong. It's a shame that, for the sake of honest and rational public discourse, more attention isn't paid to the efforts conservatives go thru to deny basic reality, what with its inherent liberal bias and all.
posted by Gelatin at 7:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [58 favorites]


William Hague, a former leader of the UK Conservative Party, and Foreign Secretary from 2010-2014, writes about working with Hillary Clinton: "There are people attacking her staying power now who, if asked to undertake one fortnight of how she did that job, would have to be taken straight to hospital. The Hillary Clinton I got to know was a living, breathing advertisement for unrelenting stamina."
posted by holgate at 7:26 AM on September 13, 2016 [67 favorites]


There's no question that Team Trump has taken the page from Karl Rove's playbook about attacking their opponents with the opponents' strengths and Trump's weaknesses.
posted by Gelatin at 7:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Median real income +5.2% in 2015. Wowzas."

"First increase in median annual income since 2007."

From the Census's "Income and Poverty in the United States" for 2015 that just came out.
posted by chris24 at 7:31 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


There's no question that Team Trump has taken the page from Karl Rove's playbook

Oh, this is an older playbook, the Roger Stone book of spectacular ratfuckery. When Trump was saying in the 90s that tribal casinos would be mobbed up... well.
posted by holgate at 7:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]




"1.2% drop in poverty rate."
posted by chris24 at 7:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


The full Census report: Income and Poverty in the United States: 2015.
posted by chris24 at 7:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Politico: Progressives draft staff blacklist for Clinton administration

Oh yes, please start with the blacklists. They've got such a storied history, and have gone so well for progressives in the past.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Republicans Privately Panic At “Terrifying” Prospect Of Trump Win
“I’ve heard a lot of conservatives voicing frustration, like, ‘How fucking hard is this, Hillary?’” said Ben Howe, a conservative ad-maker and an outspoken Trump detractor. “That’s the only reason I’m panicked these days … I’m losing faith in Hillary’s ability to win this easy-ass election.”

Rick Wilson, a Florida-based GOP consultant now working on Evan McMullin’s independent presidential campaign, said few of his #NeverTrump compatriots believe a case of pneumonia will sink Clinton’s candidacy. But her impulse to conceal the illness — and her campaign’s clumsy response once it was revealed — reinforced a core political weakness.

“There are a lot of Republicans on the ‘Never Trump’ side that are starting to feel very nervous,” Wilson said, “because no matter how minor the next thing is there’s a possibility [the Clinton campaign] is gonna screw it up by lying about something. They can’t help themselves. It’s genetic.”
Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump. OK. I guess it would be too much to ask these guys who are terrified of a Trump Presidency to do something more than wring their hands? It really does not help to get mad at Clinton.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [77 favorites]


> "Important note on Trump's 6-week maternity leave plan: it's NOT full paid maternity leave. It's a safety net: 6 weeks unemployment benefits"

In most countries that have paid parental leave, the amount you receive is based on your current salary, and somewhat less than you normal paycheck, like unemployment benefits.
posted by nangar at 7:51 AM on September 13, 2016


So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own.

I do this - it makes me feel like at least some of the time the hard work women do is recognized. I recommend it as a tactic for anyone since it's not aggressive and has a subtle impact.
posted by winna at 7:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Overall a fantastic report, but one area (besides the rural/city divide mentioned above) Republicans will probably jump on: Immigrants (documented and undocumented) had a bigger percentage income increase than native-born citizens (though they make less than native-born.)

"Between 2014 and 2015, the real median income of households maintained by a foreign-born person increased 5.3 percent, from $49,649 to $52,295. The median income of households maintained by a native-born person increased 4.4 percent, from $54,741 to $57,173.13. The 2015 median income of households maintained by a noncitizen ($45,137) increased 10.5 percent from 2014; while the median income of house-holds maintained by a naturalized citizen ($61,982), was not statistically different from the 2014 median"
posted by chris24 at 7:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


It really does not help to get mad at Clinton.

Perhaps not, but it is required. One might be forgiven the sin of not supporting the nominee when the nominee is Trump; there will be no such forgiveness for those who do not adequately oppose Clinton.
posted by Mooski at 7:54 AM on September 13, 2016


In response to this tweet:

"Trump says Clinton running ‘hate-filled campaign’ at tense North Carolina rally where violence flares up"

Brian Fallon, Clinton's Press Sec replies:

"Trump's been lured out onto branch of debating which campaign is running on hate. About to be sawed off behind him"

They really want this battle and like their chances. So do I.
posted by chris24 at 7:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


octothorpe: Nate Silver gives GOP donors a closed-door presentation
Donors who participated in Silver's session besides Singer and Todd Ricketts included Ron Weiser, finance vice chairman of the Trump campaign; Betsy DeVos, a Michigan-based billionaire from one of the country's most powerful political families; Joe Craft, a Kentucky coal magnate and major Trump booster; and New York investor Cliff Asness.
sallybrown: Gross, Nate.

Or, he got paid to talk about his website:
Attendees said his insights were valuable, though they involved no information that wasn’t already on his website in one form or another.
Yeah, sounds like a powerpoint presentation walking busy people through a slightly complicated website.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:00 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."

Wow. So Clinton is not as generous as Trump because she hasn't employed as many people. Forget about the fact that Clinton gives 10% of her income to charity on top of paying her taxes which Trump does not do, the fact is Trump gets a lot from the people he employs. And if he does not feel satisfied with the job they do, he doesn't pay them. Such a twisted view of charity. Kellyanne Conway is either immoral or stupid.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


Brian Fallon, Clinton's Press Sec replies:

"Trump's been lured out onto branch of debating which campaign is running on hate. About to be sawed off behind him"


Note that Fallon is her current press secretary. The campaign is literally saying "hahahaha, he's walking right into our trap" on publicly visible social media without fear that Trump might decide not to walk into the trap, because they know he's too reckless to change course.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:04 AM on September 13, 2016 [41 favorites]


Sorry, one more point on the Census Income and Poverty Report:

"The income gains last year were the largest ever recorded for the 10th, 20th, 30th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 70th and 80th percentiles."

Basically between the income increases and poverty decrease, it's the best census income report ever.
posted by chris24 at 8:04 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Hillary Clinton Is Sick and the New York Times Is ON IT Blogger Kevin Drum keeps score on PneumoniaGate (with pic): "The LA Times has two front-page stories related to Hillary Clinton's pneumonia. Ditto for the Wall Street Journal. The Washington Post has three. But the New York Times is flooding the zone! Huzzah for the Gray Lady!"
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:05 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


> Kellyanne Conway is either immoral or stupid
“either/or” suggests that those are mutually exclusive
posted by farlukar at 8:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


All this aside, where does this absolute confidence in winning come from, I wonder?
[...]the two states she needs to put her over 270 (Pennsylvania and Wisconsin) haven't voted Republican in at least 28 years and have shown Clinton leading in 99% and 100% of the polls, respectively[...]
Moreover, polls aside, Trump's voter registration and organization efforts are paltry even here, where he needs the work the most. I'm not sure if he has an effort going on in Pennsylvania; last I heard, he didn't have a single office open in Philadelphia. Hillary has four in Philly alone; mine, which is not the largest of the four, is so swamped with volunteers that sometimes I've gone in and not had a place to sit. And I've worked numerous shifts stretching to and past four hours, simply because the half–dozen full–timers are perpetually overwhelmed by just how much work is getting done for them to document.

It actually has the same aggressive feel to it that the one start–up I worked for in NYC did. Offices hold competitions across one another, both in the city and (I think) the state and maybe even nationally. There's a lot of collegiate pressure to perform, both because everybody clearly believes in the cause and because they really want to get called out by name in the evening conference call. I've been called in a few times to train new data people, because we need to parse hundreds of canvass records and voter registration forms a day. The outreach is incredible.

The entire thing makes it clear how important volunteer efforts like this are. I've been registered to vote since the primaries, but there are really a lot of people who'd love to vote in theory but in practice have no idea where to begin. Concerted efforts to get those people registered, and to get them to the voting centers come November, matter a great deal. There have also been numerous studies that show how the impact of these actions isn't limited to the individuals you reach out to: they create a social momentum that encourage those people's friends and acquaintances to vote, and that momentum can work virally if enough people are reached out to.

If the polls were showing Clinton and Trump in a dead tie, I'd be almost wholly confident in Clinton's winning, on the basis of her ground game alone. This isn't the first election where this has mattered. The data–architecting tool I use professionally is the one Obama used in 2008 and 2012, and articles came out after the 2012 election observing what a clusterfuck Romney's campaign was when it came to organizing and tracking voters. That tanked him four years ago. Clinton's system makes Obama's look incompetent by comparison, and it's operating against what looks to be a gaping void.

In Florida, the other swing state so important that it plus PA equals Clinton winning instantly, Trump's Miami office turned out to be a practical joke by a Democrat, and Trump's putting so little effort into organizing there that nobody noticed. (That article notes he has one Florida campaign office—in Sarasota.)

I don't advocate blind cockiness. I like that Hillary's campaign emails make us sound like we're in the middle of pandemonium—somewhat cynically, I appreciate that we're trying to scare voters into actually voting. I still volunteer when I can. But I also think Trump is being set up for a trouncing, and that the polls underrepresent how trounced he's going to be. I say that as somebody who's on the ground floor in a swing state.
posted by rorgy at 8:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [64 favorites]


Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump.

Haha. That's amazing. Some Republicans are sneering at Clinton because she isn't handily beating the nominee they couldn't avoid nominating themselves.
posted by notyou at 8:07 AM on September 13, 2016 [57 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."

United States Department of State
Employees
13,000 Foreign Service employees
11,000 Civil Service employees
45,000 Foreign Service local employees
posted by Etrigan at 8:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump. OK. I guess it would be too much to ask these guys who are terrified of a Trump Presidency to do something more than wring their hands? It really does not help to get mad at Clinton.

That'd be the Hillary Clinton that the Republican establishment has spent thirty years demonizing, wouldn't it? As portrayed in a media that the Republican establishment has spent 50 years working with bogus complaints about being "liberal," wouldn't it? Running against a candidate who has simply taken a megaphone to Republican dog whistles?

Gee, I wonder why she isn't doing better?
posted by Gelatin at 8:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


I'm still wondering why a teenager couldn't bake his own brownies.
posted by asteria at 8:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [78 favorites]


Trump-space is not democratic. It depends for its energy on the tyrannical
emanations of the man at its center, on the wattage of his big marmalade face and that
dainty mobster thing he does with the thumb and forefinger of his right hand. But it is
artistic. Within its precincts, the most vicious and nihilistic utterances retain a kind of
innocent levity: They sound half-funny, theatrical, or merely petulant. The scapegoating and
bullying are somehow childlike. This is why, so far, no political strategy has succeeded
against him. It rolls on, his power grab, his wild Trumpian trundling toward the White
House, because he’s not doing politics at all. He’s doing bad art. Terrible art. He can’t go
off message, because his message is “Look at me! I’m off message!”

Speaking on the hoof, in an emancipated, undogmatic way, is a fashion among today’s public
figures: The loosey-goosey style of Pope Francis himself has been hailed by one of his
closest counselors as “a pontificate of … incomplete thought.” But nothing comes close to
Trump’s improv extravaganza, his unteleprompted lungings, his obscenity stampede, his
rhetorical vagrancy. Trump’s speaking style is from the future, from a time to come when
human consciousness has broken down into little floating atavistic splinters of subjectivity
and superstition and jokes that aren’t really jokes. At times he is in chauvinist free fall,
swiping and snarling at the phantoms around him. At others, pure psychic prima materia comes
bubbling up in crude lumps, clinically fascinating, as when he fantasized that Megyn Kelly
was exploding with menstrual blood.

...Is it frivolous to portray a genuine and expanding menace to the republic as some kind of
arty iconoclast or Lord of Misrule? Obviously it is. Look at him up there, triumphant,
Trump-umphant, roasting in adoration, but also—like a professional wrestling heel—accepting
and enjoying the hostility, the spicy crackle of odium. He hoists his chin, he lengthens the
imperial rampart of his lower lip. He makes that face, that superfrown, the glower of the
autocrat. He looks like a bust that will one day be toppled in a city square.
Donald Trump, Sex Pistol
posted by y2karl at 8:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


"The group with negative income growth: people outside of metropolitan areas."

Rural Merica. Proportional to income; as costly or more costly than ATX. Groceries of any quality, or freshness; a ten dollar round trip or a 30% markup than from the distant medium-small city. Products of brand and availability? Best know how to Amazon or Ebay. Internet is still seen on TV, via a Dateline NBC or TrueCrime TV special; full of predators thieves crooks and outsiders.

Per capita poverty, and substance abuse issues are on par with many of the large cities renowned for such issues - meth is easy to make, cheap alcohol is cheap, smoking is all but encouraged; and the minimum wage job with -0- chance for advancement and pay increases is par for the course.

Hillary is the beast; Ted Cruz is the salvation; Trump is the too powerful quasi-diety mega boss. Obama; a person who has done absolutely *nothing* positive. Rural Merica. Consuming itself.
posted by buzzman at 8:17 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


The campaign is literally saying "hahahaha, he's walking right into our trap" on publicly visible social media without fear that Trump might decide not to walk into the trap, because they know he's too reckless to change course.

They're trying to get into his head. They want him constantly questioning whether he's walking into a trap or not. Keep him off balance.
posted by EarBucket at 8:18 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


They're trying to get into his head.

Yep, literally baiting him with a tweet.
posted by chris24 at 8:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


They want him constantly questioning whether he's walking into a trap or not.

I fear they may have credited him with more insight than he's capable of.
posted by Mooski at 8:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yep, literally baiting him with a tweet.

And here I was thinking the alt-right were the master baiters.
posted by Talez at 8:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Republicans Privately Panic At “Terrifying” Prospect Of Trump Win

McKay Coppins is *excellent* at getting idiots to spout off to him and then building a piece in which they out themselves as complete fools.
posted by sallybrown at 8:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."

Similar to Trump's claim that he loves the disabled because he spends "millions of dollars making buildings good for people that are disabled." [As he is required to by law.]
posted by zakur at 8:25 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]



So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own.


I'm the only woman in my department *sad trombone*
(I actually only have notable sexism problems from one person here who is not my manager and is I think tacitly recognized as the weak link in the department, so things could be worse. Still though, it's not great.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:27 AM on September 13, 2016


Krugman basically calling out his own paper again.

Why Are The Media Objectively Pro-Trump?

"Because they are, at this point. It’s not even false equivalence: compare the amount of attention given to the Clinton Foundation despite absence of any evidence of wrongdoing, and attention given to Trump Foundation, which engaged in more or less open bribery — but barely made a dent in news coverage. Clinton was harassed endlessly over failure to give press conferences, even though she was doing lots of interviews; Trump violated decades of tradition by refusing to release his taxes, amid strong suspicion that he is hiding something; the press simply dropped the subject."
posted by chris24 at 8:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [46 favorites]


I don't advocate blind cockiness. I like that Hillary's campaign emails make us sound like we're in the middle of pandemonium—somewhat cynically, I appreciate that we're trying to scare voters into actually voting. I still volunteer when I can. But I also think Trump is being set up for a trouncing, and that the polls underrepresent how trounced he's going to be. I say that as somebody who's on the ground floor in a swing state.

I appreciate your take and your efforts. I agree with your outlook for the most part. I understand the Electoral College and how its layout far outweighs how many points Trump will win by in meaningless states.

But I am and remain nervous because I am a liberal, and I can never underestimate the American left's ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I am nervous because I am an American, the land where fake cheese comes in a can and the Kardashians are famous idols of millions and otherwise rational people believe ridiculous shit they hear on TV or read in the paper or hear on the radio or read on Facebook. And I am nervous because _it literally does not matter whether a Presidential candidate is coherent, qualified and/or capable_ any more.

I just want to get to November and return to my normal levels of cynicism.
posted by delfin at 8:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


What's interesting is that despite all of the "drama" that the press seems to be trying to create out of this race the reality is that it's largely static. Hillary had a big bump out of the conventions and when that fade her big bump faded as well but it's just been a reversion to the trend line that has been incredibly stable since the time period where the nominees were decided.

Trump can't seem to get past his current cap and while there is some nominal chances that he'll win most of them are predicated on extremely low voter turnout which I see absolutely zero chance of actually happening given the breathless treatment this election has received from pundits.

Once state polling show a major shift towards Trump I might get nervous but right now I'm basically barely checking in on and I'm a political junkie. The reasons for this is that it's completely boring and predictable unless you allow yourself to focus too much on the minutae.
posted by vuron at 8:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


mmoncur: I'll be the happiest person on earth if Dr. Oz tells Trump he has 3 Stooges Syndrome

Trump: So what you're saying is I'm indestructible.
Dr. Oz: Oh, no, no. In fact, even a slight breeze could-
Trump: Indestructible.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [20 favorites]


They want him constantly questioning whether he's walking into a trap or not.

ackbarwithtrumphair.gif
posted by The Bellman at 8:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway went on CNN and declared that Donald Trump was a very generous man. When asked for proof, she said that "he employed tens of thousands of people from many different countries, both genders certainly, from all walks of life over the years." When it was pointed out to her that that is not charity, she responded, "It is pretty darn impressive and it isn't the political resume that his opponent has."


It's an entitled viewpoint that isn't all that uncommon among business owners and people who support 'business ownership' as a be all and end all goal in society. They do people/society favors by creating/giving out jobs. They're lauded for it. Trump just takes it to another level.

I mean in my last job my boss told me I should be grateful at what they were willing to pay me when there was an emergency and I had to cover a position that they had no one else to fill. It was sooo much more money (it wasn't and way below what similar position would pay in another place). She also made similar comments that other people should show more respect because the company was giving them jobs. She isn't the first person I've worked with with attitudes like this.
posted by Jalliah at 8:31 AM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


WaPo: The national media is talking about Trump’s racist campaign. That’s good for Hillary Clinton.

"The battle between the two campaigns over Hillary Clinton’s “basket of deplorables” comment is now fully joined, and it’s becoming increasingly clear that the Clinton campaign has one major strategic goal: to get the national media to talk about Donald Trump’s bigotry and his racist campaign as much as possible."
posted by chris24 at 8:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


WaPo: The national media is talking about Trump’s racist campaign. That’s good for Hillary Clinton.

Don't forget that she fired the first shot late in August with her "alt-right" speech.
posted by Gelatin at 8:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


"and it’s becoming increasingly clear that the Clinton campaign has one major strategic goal: to get the national media to talk about Donald Trump’s bigotry and his racist campaign as much as possible."

Because, let's face it, they won't do it by themselves.
posted by Artw at 8:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [46 favorites]


I'm not sure if he has an effort going on in Pennsylvania

I'm not super plugged in to the HFA effort here in Pittsburgh but off the top of my head I can think of 4 offices in the city proper (East End, Strip District, Oakland, and North Side) and another few out in the close-in suburbs. We, well specifically my husband, got canvassed last night, which is funny because despite all of his armchair radicalism he's a pretty loyal D voter when it comes down to it. (I think I scared the canvasser because husband was kind of hemming and hawing about his answers and kept asking me for my input and I was like OMG FUCK TRUMP, I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A SMOLDERING RACIST HELLHOLE, #I'MWITHHER GRRAAARRRR!!! And then I was like uh sorry, I know I'm not the one you need data on. Carry on.) I work on a university campus which has it's very own HFA office and there are voter registration tables here literally every day.

Trump I think has one office waaaaaay out in the far suburbs, but that's from the primaries so I'm not sure if it has even stayed there or what.

Hillary yard sign count from my morning commute today: 6, including my own. Trump: 0. I do every now and then see Trump bumper stickers (always on very shiny late model pick-up trucks) and it reminds me: they walk amongst us.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm still wondering why a teenager couldn't bake his own brownies.

You can't trust a teenager with your weed.
posted by box at 8:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [41 favorites]


I just want to get to November and return to my normal levels of cynicism.

Don't read any of Bernie's campaign emails from before the DNC, especially the ones about $$$ and influence. Probably best to delete every one of them. Remember to unsubscribe from the new ones that are still coming in. /illness
posted by buzzman at 8:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sometimes it feels like Hillary's playing chess and Trump is playing 'flip the table'.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


when you're used to privilege, the absence of privilege feels like persecution

Years ago, when I got my first career job, I moved to the city like all the kids do. We specifically looked for a house with a garage so we could work on our projects. We had no intention of parking a car in there, and when you have a driveway you don't use, you basically have a city-sanctioned free parking spot in front of it. If anyone else parks in front of your driveway, you can call the city and they'll be more than happy to ticket them. I'm not a big fan of car culture and I think this is bullshit, but that's how it is.

Before we moved in, our house was vacant for some time. The neighbor had gotten into the habit of parking his truck in front of our driveway. I had to tell him multiple times that this was no longer OK. Not only were parking spots a pain in the ass to find, but once in a while we actually did need to get a car in the driveway.

Boy, did he not take this well. I remember him being visibly angry. He once scraped the hell out of my bumper pulling one of his vehicles into his own driveway and then denied any responsibility. He kept up this attitude for all 7 months I was there, to the point when I couldn't get the moving van into our own driveway because of him.

I think that it is human nature that after a certain amount of time, privileges start to feel like rights. But maybe the degree to which he held on to those feelings had something to do with being a grumpy older white dude.
posted by cman at 8:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [58 favorites]



I've noticed in social media (twitter, comments, facebook etc) that there are Trump supporters who have added 'deplorable' or something to do with baskets to their handles. From what I gather it's about 'reclaiming the word, ironic, Hillary is dissing the American people, deplorable lives matter' something, something protest. They're trying to change Hillary's message.

It's pretty awesome really because not only is it keeping the word and message out there it's directing people to constantly have discussions about Trump being awful. Plus it's reenforcing the message because the people naming themselves with that are saying either really stupid and/or awful things. I've seen so many, 'see deplorablex..you've just proved the message . Thanks for providing a great example of what she is talking about,' responses.

In some cases the 'deplorable x' gets mad and doubles down on whatever they're saying.
The lack of self awareness of how it comes across to people outside the Trump bubble is quite something to see.
posted by Jalliah at 8:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Iiiii'm not sure they're trying to be ironic. I think a certain subset are pretty proud of being terrible people. Edgelords gonna edge.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


Sometimes it feels like Hillary's playing chess and Trump is playing 'flip the table'.

TFW when you spend an hour playing Candyland with your little brother, and just when you and he realize victory is in your grasp, he flips the board upside down and accuses you of cheating.
posted by sallybrown at 8:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


ugh my brother broke our Connect Four set because I kept beating him.
posted by zutalors! at 8:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hillary yard sign count from my morning commute today: 6, including my own. Trump: 0. I do every now and then see Trump bumper stickers (always on very shiny late model pick-up trucks) and it reminds me: they walk amongst us.

In suburban Philadelphia (emphasis on suburban), I've seen more Trump signs than Hillary by a wide margin. When I venture to the middle of the state, it's Trumptopia. On the way up to my in-laws' place, one store had a huge road sign flashing *TRUMP* *TRUMP* *TRUMP* *HATS STICKERS SIGNS INSIDE*, and another guy had a big sign facing the road reading TRUMP 2016: NO MORE BULLSHIT. I've seen TRUMP THE BITCH stickers on stop signs and whatnot maybe half an hour from the Philly city limits.

I have also seen my share of greasepaint writing on vehicle windows declaring REMEMBER BENGHAZI and HILLARY FOR PRISON and that ilk. Unsurprisingly, it's always on pickup trucks.
posted by delfin at 8:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Unsurprisingly, it's always on pickup trucks.

Interestingly, I was taking myself to task last night on the drive home for assuming that a pickup truck was shorthand for Trump supporter; while I still think the assumption's wrong, I guess I'm glad I'm not the only person who's connected those two dots.
posted by Mooski at 8:54 AM on September 13, 2016


Iiiii'm not sure they're trying to be ironic. I think a certain subset are pretty proud of being terrible people. Edgelords gonna edge.

I'm sure they are proud. The reactions they're getting are still the same whether it's ironic or proud.
posted by Jalliah at 8:55 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


"The media consensus is Clinton had a "bad week".

Here's the scorecard:


Really a must see tweet and list to show just how bad the media is doing.
posted by chris24 at 8:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [40 favorites]


Mooski: I only have two stickers on my truck. An American Flag and an IWW decal.
posted by absalom at 8:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Why am I grossed out by Nate Silver meeting with PoT(T) donors? These people have been financing the appalling Republican politics of the last 3 decades. These rich asshats pour money into destroying the social safety-net, undermining organized labor, advancing climate change denialism, promoting racism, misogyny, and anti-Queer bias, and encouraging hate against religious minorities.

To sit in a room with such people and take their money while walking them through his analyses suggests that for Nate Silver, these actions aren't really that unacceptable.

Betsy DeVos--sister of the sickening Erik Prince of Blackwater infamy--is married to Dick DeVos, an Amyway/Quickstar pyramid scheme scion. Ron Weiser is the frickin' finance vice chairman of the Trump campaign!

These people are actively scamming people and participating in the most ugly campaign since George Wallace. They are currently engaged in social violence against people of color and LGBTQ+ folks.

Yeah, feeling pretty good about mostly tuning out 538 for this election cycle. Sam Wang is an actual statistical expert who publishes his code and isn't dependent on clickbaiting headlines.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 8:58 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Mostly, it depends on why you bought a pickup truck:

1) Because I have a frequent need to haul a bunch of heavy stuff from point A to point B.
2) Because it's what Real American Men[tm] drive.

Sort accordingly.
posted by delfin at 9:00 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


I plan to get a pickup truck someday and put lots of feminist stickers on it, because pickups are awesome and I hate that douchebags have claimed them.
posted by emjaybee at 9:01 AM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


When we were in upstate New York, about 45 minutes outside Ithaca, I actually saw a Prius with a Trump sticker.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:05 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


I plan to get a pickup truck someday and put lots of feminist stickers on it, because pickups are awesome and I hate that douchebags have claimed them.

My first vehicle was a pick-up. It was awesome. I loved it so much. At the time it made sense, I was living more rural and frequently needed 4 wheel drive. I also wanted to be able to move stuff around. I also went off road a lot for various reasons. It was both tool and toy.

I've driven a few since then but not owned myself. I love how they drive but it's just not the most practical option for what I need now. Pickup trucks are pretty common here, it's farm country and both men and women drive them. There is the group of pick-up owning bro dudes, though I come across those in more urban suburban areas. The ones where it's clear it's a 'man' thing and holy hell you better not doing anything to scratch up or make my truck dirty types. The type where actually hauling something is fraught with a whole lot of protective truck gear because holy hell that 2x4 can't scratch the paint bro.
posted by Jalliah at 9:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I actually saw a Prius with a Trump sticker.

I saw a dead head sticker on a Cadillac.
posted by chris24 at 9:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


When we were in upstate New York, about 45 minutes outside Ithaca, I actually saw a Prius with a Trump sticker.

This is a line from the worst The Boys of Summer parody ever.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Ha! Jinx MCMikeNamara.
posted by chris24 at 9:12 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


I never understand the point of the clean, shiny pickup truck aesthetic. What, you're proud of the fact that you bought a fancy pickup truck and then refused to use it for either adventure or work? At that point it's just extremely inconvenient and expensive jewelry.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [20 favorites]


So female staffers adopted a meeting strategy they called “amplification”: When a woman made a key point, other women would repeat it, giving credit to its author. This forced the men in the room to recognize the contribution – and denied them the chance to claim the idea as their own.

I do this - it makes me feel like at least some of the time the hard work women do is recognized. I recommend it as a tactic for anyone since it's not aggressive and has a subtle impact.


This isn't just for women, for what it's worth - we male allies can amplify/reinforce/deflect idea-stealing by other men too. I try(*) to just shut up and let women do their thing, but I have been in meetings where there was a severe minority of women (often it was just 'woman') and there were jerkholes who'd stomp/take ideas. So I'd do some variation on "So Rebecca, your idea is we take xyz and that accomplishes pdq?" or "Rebecca, I think your idea of xyz is a good one." Downside: close to mansplaining. Upside: includes your idea or variant firmly pinning achievement on the woman who actually did it.

"Yeah, good idea Rebecca!" after someone tries to steal is better (and soooo much more fun :) but sometimes the judo has to be more subtle if you don't want to create blowback for both you and 'Rebecca,' in my experience.

* Okay I don't really anymore because now I work 100% remotely and it's just a boy's club here at the dining room table with me and the dog. But I used to be a part of civilization
posted by phearlez at 9:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


I've seen a couple of Trump Priuses, and a Trump Ford Fiesta. There seems to be an association between multiple "Christian religious freedom" stickers and Trump supporters.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:20 AM on September 13, 2016


At that point it's just extremely inconvenient and expensive jewelry.

Aaaaaaand there's your answer.
My machine shop field report: had to get some new parts made in a hurry, which meant Saturday work. The shop owner (drives a full-cab Ram, relatively new and beat to hell) offhandedly mentioned (unprompted, I don't talk politics w/coworkers, even jokingly) wanting to deport Trump. We had a pretty fun discussion after that. As it was Saturday, we were the only two there.
posted by rp at 9:21 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


One of my closest friends has a ginormous Ford F-250 with a Hillary sticker (replacing the Bernie one that was there until a few months back). That one raises some eyebrows.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:22 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Come to think of it, the union thing means there are probably a fair number of Hillary stickers on pickups, work vans, etc. My brother has one, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:24 AM on September 13, 2016


I'm pretty sure that here, Subrarus roll off the assembly line with the Obama campaign stickers already attached.

I did see a Trump sticker in the parking lot of Whole Foods the other day, but given who runs Whole Foods maybe not such a surprise.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:24 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]




My dad traded in his Prius for a Subaru about a year ago. Both of these were chosen because they fit his bike and cycling equipment best among the safe vehicles/good gas mileage class.

He's voting Trump.
posted by phunniemee at 9:27 AM on September 13, 2016


Just a few days ago I saw a pristine 'Cruz for President' sticker on the back of a Honda HR-V here in New Orleans. I was so astounded that I took a photo. No scrape marks or other obvious signs of attempted removal.
posted by komara at 9:28 AM on September 13, 2016


Interestingly, I was taking myself to task last night on the drive home for assuming that a pickup truck was shorthand for Trump supporter; while I still think the assumption's wrong, I guess I'm glad I'm not the only person who's connected those two dots.

Not work trucks, though. Only the shiny hemi duallys with the stupid high beds that probably roll coal and have never seen a day of work in their lives. You know, like Donald.

Mostly, it depends on why you bought a pickup truck:
1) Because I have a frequent need to haul a bunch of heavy stuff from point A to point B.
2) Because it's what Real American Men[tm] drive.
Sort accordingly.


Yeah, this.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


If I came across a car with a sticker that said "trump that bitch" I would key the fuck out of it. I know that's wrong. I don't care.
posted by angrycat at 9:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [20 favorites]


In addition to the shocking statistics that y2karl posted above, Charles Blow makes very clear that helping Clinton's opponent makes you complicit in and responsible for the bigotry of the Republican campaign.

For me, this attitude extends to supporting Republicans who support their nominee. Substantial portions of elected Republicans are doing just that--support for Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Chris Christie, or Marco Rubio is supporting Donald Trump, which, as Mr. Blow and Mr. Smooth have established, is a deplorable act.
Donald Trump is a deplorable candidate — to put it charitably — and anyone who helps him advance his racial, religious and ethnic bigotry is part of that bigotry. Period. [...] You can’t conveniently separate yourself from the detestable part of him because you sense in him the promise of cultural or economic advantage. That hair cannot be split. [...]

It doesn’t matter how lovely your family, how honorable your work or service, how devout your faith — if you place ideological adherence or economic self interest above the moral imperative to condemn and denounce a demagogue, then you are deplorable.
Charles Blow is a national treasure.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [50 favorites]


I can see how it would look that way to 18 year olds (which is what you were talking about), but Obamacare was a huge reform.

I'm a big Obamacare fan because I see it as a step towards universal health care which I think is far preferable to universal health insurance. But, as a Chicagoan, I feel it is important to point out that Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel who seems to always manage to do the wrong thing in the interest of some tortured short-term political expediency logic.

I'm not that into the Great Man theory of history but I do believe in the Lousy Men of history and right now there seems to be a huge oversupply of them. Some even claim to be Democrats.
posted by srboisvert at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


There are a few pickups in our neighborhood that drive around waving American flags (like this), which reads aggressive and Trump-y to me, even with no other evidence suggesting that.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


My dad traded in his Prius for a Subaru about a year ago. Both of these were chosen because they fit his bike and cycling equipment best among the safe vehicles/good gas mileage class.

He's voting Trump.


Your dad is the worst lesbian ever.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:30 AM on September 13, 2016 [102 favorites]


Speaking of. Where's that proof that Melina Trump didn't commit visa fraud?

Somewhere previous to where the mods asked to stop talking about it.
posted by VTX at 9:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Clearly income inequality and lack of real income growth is still a major, major problem in this country but I do wonder to what degree "this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine. Like, at what point do we stop saying "this economy, amirite?" and start saying "this lack of social safety net, amirite?"
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Someone in my purplish neighborhood in a blue state has a Ford F-20 with two American flags: a regular flag and a black-and-white flag with a blue stripe down the center. I sometimes see it parked in front of the local motorcycle shop next to a billboard truck with a BLUE LIVES MATTER sign on it.
posted by pxe2000 at 9:35 AM on September 13, 2016


"1.2% drop in poverty rate."

Largest percentage drop since 1968 btw. 3.5 million people lifted out of poverty.
posted by chris24 at 9:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


There's a "Cruz for President" car up the street from me. I want to pinch its cheeks and ask it if it's doing okay.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:36 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Who gets to be called a patriot?
Support can take the form of dissent just as readily as cheerleading — each is a way of suggesting what kind of nation America is to become, and patriots have lived and died on all sides of the argument. But during the 20th century, patriotism began to treat the question as one we’ve settled. The marketable, propagandistic imagery of World War II gave way to the paranoid suspicion of the Cold War era, and patriotism, more and more, morphed into a matter of optics — of theater. Love of country turned performative. We can know patriotism only when we see it — and so you’ve really got to show it. As a result, modern patriotism has become Kabuki citizenship. It’s Joseph McCarthy; it’s the House Un-American Activities Committee. It’s “Freedom fries” and “These colors don’t run.” It’s American-flag pins and the people who go nuts when a politician is caught without one.
posted by ChuraChura at 9:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


I know that's wrong. I don't care.

angrycat


eponysterical
posted by zutalors! at 9:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


My dad traded in his Prius for a Subaru about a year ago. Both of these were chosen because they fit his bike and cycling equipment best among the safe vehicles/good gas mileage class.

Does he enjoy cycling in national parks and other public recreational areas? Because Trump and friends want to sell them off for development or energy extraction or mining. They won't be much fine to bike in after that.
Does he like using bike lanes? Republicans are 'agin em. Hope he's good at dodging cars, some of them full of yahoos with guns and a grudge against cyclists!
Does he know that the fuel efficiency he loves is largely due to liberal efforts to reduce pollution and smog, fought by people like Trump?
(I know, hard to reason with dads, I'm sure you've tried, but, damn.)
posted by emjaybee at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Samantha Bee is back!
posted by Pendragon at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


"this economy, amirite?"

Honestly, thank god Obama's policies seem to have worked, because we'd be fucked this year if the economy really was as bad as Rs pretend.
posted by chris24 at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


She isn't the first person I've worked with with attitudes like this.

There's an entire subreddit devoted to these people. https://www.reddit.com/r/latestagecapitalism
posted by waitingtoderail at 9:41 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel--

There were never 60 Senate votes for the public option. What under-26s got was the ability to stay on their parents' plan longer, which is one of those Obama policies that makes a difference quietly.

I noticed that the HRC Twitter account spent some time yesterday talking about the college tuition / loan plan, quoting a lot of young people who (rightly) see the debt burden as a mortgage without a house at the end of it.
posted by holgate at 9:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Regarding the census report:

So how long until we get a tweet 'The census is obviously bias and corrupt!!'

Guess it depends on how much play the results get.
posted by Jalliah at 9:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh for those who didn't hear, SAM BEE IS BACK!
posted by Talez at 9:43 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


In California, I've seen there's a few folks that like to protest Trump rallies by driving around with pick up trucks waving Mexico's flag. I'm not sure how those folks feel about HRC, but I'm pretty sure they're not fans of DJT.
posted by FJT at 9:44 AM on September 13, 2016


Mr. Taco Trucks is at it again on Samantha Bee.

Latinos for Trump founder: Hispanics “are a primitive and underdeveloped culture”

“As Hispanics, we are a primitive and underdeveloped culture. We’ll take whatever we can take if you let us.” Asked if that means people should be scared of Mexicans, Gutierrez replied, “Yes, you should be very frightened.”
posted by chris24 at 9:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know what I was wondering the other day? When is Samantha Bee gonna be back?
posted by Etrigan at 9:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


But, as a Chicagoan, I feel it is important to point out that Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel

I'll have to inform Joe Lieberman that he's running Chicago.
posted by Talez at 9:45 AM on September 13, 2016


Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel--

There were never 60 Senate votes for the public option


Folks that claim there were need to watch Blanche Lincoln's speech from the floor saying she would never vote for it and provide a whip count. And no, no amount of pressure from Obama would sway her, as she was in a re-election battle in Arkansas at the time.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


angrycat: If I came across a car with a sticker that said "trump that bitch" I would key the fuck out of it.

I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!
posted by Too-Ticky at 9:48 AM on September 13, 2016 [31 favorites]


Obamacare had the public option amputated by Rahm Emanuel--

There were never 60 Senate votes for the public option


oh good this again
posted by Think_Long at 9:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!

Works on contingency? No, Money down!
posted by Talez at 9:50 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I like Samantha Bee but I don't really get her point of view. She's just kinda omnidirectional mad at stuff?

At least she's better than Jon Oliver and Trevor "Who?" Noah I guess. But the whole reason why Colbert worked so well was because his character was satire, not just "Fake news person reads headlines and is angry"?

Why do we need fake news when we have twitter?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Not all Trump bumper stickers are Trump bumper stickers, though.

Other bumper stickers that you can start counting as Trump stickers:
  • My child beat up your honor student.
  • Calvin peeing on anything.
  • Don't like my driving? Call 1-800-EAT-SHIT
  • Jill Stein 2016
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [31 favorites]


Jill Stein 2016
posted by leotrotsky at 9:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ground game report, in a deep red county (Horry County) in South Carolina: a few weeks ago there was nothing listed on Hillary's site happening anywhere closer than over the border in North Carolina, but things are starting to pick up. I submitted my name to the local democrats for volunteering and I'm finally getting calls from them about volunteer opportunities. I got an email from Hillary's campaign this morning to sign up for phone banking in my area, and I'm phone banking this Saturday at an AME church in Conway, SC. I'm also getting trained next week to be a poll watcher on election day in Myrtle Beach. I think there's also a canvassing thing happening next week. The Horry County Democrats are having their campaign office's Grand Opening celebration tonight so I'm sure I'll learn more.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Other bumper stickers that you can start counting as Trump stickers:

Okay, yeah - can someone please explain to me the whole "STAND UP FOR AMERICA! BE AMERICAN!!" thing? For pity's sake, that's not a dog whistle it's a goddamn foghorn.
posted by Mooski at 9:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]




Jill Stein 2016


Also Giant Meteor 2016
posted by zutalors! at 9:55 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!

Ok, I am totally carrying around a Sharpie in my purse for the sole purpose of doing this. I don't see many of these in NYC, but if I do, I'll be prepared.
posted by holborne at 9:55 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]




Ok, I am totally carrying around a Sharpie in my purse for the sole purpose of doing this. I don't see many of these in NYC, but if I do, I'll be prepared.

Make sure to do it in gold glitter marker.
posted by Talez at 9:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trevor Noah last night: "You can't just go around calling half of Trump supporters "a basket of deplorables." The correct term is "a duffel of dip shits." That's what you were looking for there, so try and be accurate."
posted by numaner at 10:02 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Trump campaign manager on if he would prove he's under audit: Are you calling him a liar?

CNN reporter somehow doesn't answer "Uh, is he lying?"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:03 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


It doesn’t matter how lovely your family, how honorable your work or service, how devout your faith — if you place ideological adherence or economic self interest above the moral imperative to condemn and denounce a demagogue, then you are deplorable.

I'd again like to applaud Jeff Flake, Lindsay Graham, Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney, Ted Cruz*, and our very own corb for standing up for their values and principles, even though their policy goals are often radically different than my own.

*Dammit.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


that person definitely loves Trump. they love him and want to kiss him

finally we agree. Dr. Jill Stein want to kiss the Donald Trump
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


I don't know if Ted Cruz really belongs on that list leotrotsky
posted by zutalors! at 10:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


The paucity of evidence compared to the Attack-Clinton Industrial Complex actually seems to me to demonstrate the opposite of its claim, but from The Intercept:
Clinton Aides Complain About Double Standard, But Media Also Went After Bush Foundation
posted by XMLicious at 10:12 AM on September 13, 2016


finally we agree. Dr. Jill Stein want to kiss the Donald Trump

Right wing demagogues are good business on the batshit insane left.
posted by Talez at 10:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't know if Ted Cruz really belongs on that list leotrotsky

I debated, but I have to give someone credit for doing the right thing in a very visible way, even if his motives might be ...complicated. I can't see into his heart* to know why he did what he did.

*because it's so dark in there, and the brimstone stings my eyes
posted by leotrotsky at 10:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


sounds like someone didn't purchase my patented X-Ray Specs™
posted by beerperson at 10:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?” which feels like it sums up a lot about this election.
posted by holgate at 10:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Jill Stein 2016

Around my 'hood I've seen one Stein poster, which says "Vote for the Greater Good, not the Lesser Evil."

My internal reaction is 🍴💩&💀
posted by Existential Dread at 10:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?” which feels like it sums up a lot about this election.

God, fuck this violent culture.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Clinton Aides Complain About Double Standard, But Media Also Went After Bush Foundation

...and remember what a huge scandal it was when they got caught deleting 22 million emails and using a private domain? Remember all the congressional hearings and the resignations and the prison sentences?
posted by leotrotsky at 10:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


Kabuki citizenship

This drives me crazy. I get it, a bunch of westerners saw Kabuki and didn't get what was going on and so assumed that, because it was stylized, it had no connection to reality. I mean, these are the same westerners who insist on calling jingju "Beijing opera" because they saw people singing and assumed it was the same as Italian opera*. If you've seen Kabuki live, however, you know that the actors commit to the truth of their characters just as deeply as their counterparts. I find the use of "Kabuki" as synonym for "bullshit" to be absurd and kind of offensive.

*I mean, this would be like like calling hula "Hawaiian ballet."
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [27 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?” which feels like it sums up a lot about this election.

I drove down to California from Oregon last weekend and saw this. Also, after seeing this asshole going north on I5 the weekend before, I'm pretty much just worried sick all the time at this point.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:20 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?”
The elaborate display put together by Billy Pitner, of Sutherlin, Oregon, consists of a rubber wet suit, adorned with women’s clothing and a blonde wig, hanging by the neck from a construction crane. Signs reading “Vote Trump” and “Treason? Ask her” [also "URANIUM ONE"] hang off the crane, along with several America flags.
I like his initiative and creativity, but that messaging is kind of all over the place.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:21 AM on September 13, 2016


I get it, a bunch of westerners saw Kabuki and didn't get what was going on and so assumed that, because it was stylized, it had no connection to reality.

I think this is a somewhat uncharitable reading of the metaphor. Kabuki isn't a denigration of something normally respected as plain political theatre. I interpret it as meaning something has been accepted by the 'savvy' political class as theatre for so long that the pretense of verisimilitude has been abandoned in favour of well-established traditions of stylized posturing that the intended audience has come to expect.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:32 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Some Republicans are whining because Clinton is not wiping the floor with Trump. OK. I guess it would be too much to ask these guys who are terrified of a Trump Presidency to do something more than wring their hands?

Hillary Clinton and the Republican Congressman are sitting together on the banks of the Trump river as a storm rages on. They know the rising Trump will engulf them both soon. Of the two, only Hillary can swim. "Hillary," the Republican Congressman says, "will you carry me on your back and swim us both to safety?" Hillary replies, "I am afraid to carry you on my back, for I believe that you will sting me." "No!" replies the Congressman, "I promise I will not sting you."

So Hillary takes the Republican Congressman upon her back and steps into the breach of the Trump to swim them both to safety. As they are mid-way across the river, the Republican Congressman cries out "BENGHAZI! PRIVATE EMAIL SERVER!! PNEUMONIA-CONCUSSION-BODY-DOUBLES!!!" Hillary is stung and they are overwhelmed by the Trump. With her last breath, Hillary asks "Why?" and with his last, the Republican Congressman replies "I could not help it, it is my nature..."
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 10:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [73 favorites]


I drove from Seattle to Portland & back over the weekend.

In Seattle, I have seen all of ONE Trump lawn sign (a big one, poorly placed I'm happy to add, and literally the only thing on the block covered in graffiti). I have seen ONE incidence of a Trump bumper sticker months ago, although it was an awful "Trump/Cosby" bumper sticker that still leaves me so disgusted I can't even describe it. But that's it.

Sadly, I saw more than a handful of Trump bumper stickers while in Portland.
Between Olympia (south of Seattle) and Portland, I saw several big Trump banners and signs, usually erected by the freeway on large, mostly undeveloped tracts of land.
(For those familiar with it, the big Uncle Sam marquee on I-5 south of Centralia was of course bugnuts right wing crazy & full of hate for Clinton, too.)


When people say WA and OR are solidly blue states, that's still a matter of people actually putting their vote in when it's time for the election. As with most states, the cities are blue and that's where the largest share of people are, but you can find plenty of red out here, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump campaign manager on if he would prove he's under audit: Are you calling him a liar?

CNN reporter somehow doesn't answer "Uh, is he lying?"


Every on-air interviewer should have a 15-minute list of verified lies Trump has told during the campaign prepared for exactly this occasion.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:35 AM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Better than that, they should do it real-time whenever he speaks, like Pop Up Video.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Given that the GOP congressman is likely a man and white I was expecting the "I can swim" LOTFR ending.

Which, seriously, is how I percieve these whiners. It's another way of attacking, as she isn't good enough to handle such an easy opponent (despite a shit news media and three decades of bullshit), she's too weak, blah blah blah.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:41 AM on September 13, 2016


I do think that Washington Kabuki has become a tired cliche, and really falls down because as exaggerated and ritualized the acting has become, the pretense of reality is still maintained. I think the better metaphor is kayfabe.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Washington State is solidly blue in a handful of counties. Maybe just three (King/Pierce/Snohomish). The rest of the state is pretty solidly red with purple patches.
posted by palomar at 10:44 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


My hot take, admittedly ignorant perception of the metaphor is that Kabuki is a highly stylized and exaggerated reflection of reality. It would be absurd for someone to don that costume and act like their character does on stage out in a normal public setting.

If a Kabuki play had a character that was supposed to be a patriotic american, they would look and sound a lot like the highly visible patriots that we're talking about. While that wouldn't look out of place in the play, they certainly look absurd off it. They don't get that it's being dialed up to 11 on the stage and "normal" dials that back to a 3.

Now, off to wikipedia with me to learn about Kabuki!
posted by VTX at 10:44 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think this is a somewhat uncharitable reading of the metaphor.

Your response is a too-charitable reading. Pundits' use of "kabuki" is almost never positive, not educated, but instead explicitly defined, by the pundits themselves, as posturing and as "performance where nothing is done." An excellent article on the subject.

Generally speaking, the least charitable read on how the west is using something from Asia as a metaphor will be the most accurate.
posted by maxsparber at 10:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Also Giant Meteor 2016


I would charitably interpret this bumper sticker as "I hate this horrible election cycle" rather than "I hate Clinton."
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:48 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah I'm unsure why you need the "kabuki" at all. Wouldn't it just be better to just say "theater" and leave it at that?
posted by Tevin at 10:49 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


The "Washington narrative" is more of a soap opera version of reality than anything

It's what politics would look like if you lived in Port Charles
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:52 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


President Obama just Thanks, Obama'd himself. Can't stop giggling.
posted by stolyarova at 10:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [63 favorites]


what does it mean when someone tried to key your bernie bumper sticker off your car before the primaries even started

i live in oakland i can't even imagine who here would feel outraged enough about bernie to do that
posted by burgerrr at 10:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


WaPo: The national media is talking about Trump’s racist campaign. That’s good for Hillary Clinton.

"The battle between the two campaigns over Hillary Clinton’s “basket of deplorables” comment is now fully joined, and it’s becoming increasingly clear that the Clinton campaign has one major strategic goal: to get the national media to talk about Donald Trump’s bigotry and his racist campaign as much as possible."


Artw: Because, let's face it, they won't do it by themselves.

Really, "basket of deplorables" is really brilliant. It's out-Roving Donald: The Karl Rove move is to make your weakness and your opponent's strength their weakness, except some people will shout "stop projecting, you pompous ass!" So what do you do? Get your opponent to make their weakness their battle flag.

Sure, some people wave the Confederate flag with pride, and there is a small fraction of the population that celebrates some part of that Southern history because of something other than racism, but let's be honest: it's always been about racism.

But Donald's campaign wasn't going to say "hey everyone, we're all racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic folks, join us spread our fear and hate!" So Hillary dropped the "basket of deplorables," and his campaign picked it up with glee.

It's been said before: either of the candidates will lose if this general campaign becomes about them. Hillary has to fight against the history of misogyny and pointed attacks against her and her husband, and the line that "she's the most disliked candidate in history ... after her opponent" almost always without anyone clarifing that that has been by design from her history of opponents, not because she's a real life vampire (to clarify, Hillary Clinton is not a vampire). So Hillary and her campaign has smoothly made this about Donald, and he helped them out, time and time again. She's not going to win over the self-described hardcore "deplorables" for this election, but her presidency can win some over going forward. So what does she have to lose? Well, the spotlight on her health non-scandals, for one thing.

She made the coverage about him again, and about his failings. This isn't time for a slow clap, it's time for an ovation.

And before you say it's premature, I'm embracing the joys I find in every-day life. Tomorrow will bring it's own horrors, I don't have to sit here and just wait for them.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [39 favorites]


> " It is synecdoche, synopsis, and metaphor rolled together"

From the article maxsparber linked to above (good article, btw).

And it also nicely summarizes how I'm starting to feel about these threads.
posted by Tevin at 10:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Wouldn't it just be better to just say "theater" and leave it at that?

Or "charade"
posted by XMLicious at 10:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah I'm unsure why you need the "kabuki" at all.

Agreed. Nearly always it means either "bullshit" or "kayfabe," and the listener / reader would probably benefit from the additional clarity of using one of those terms. Plus kayfabe needs to be more broadly known in the political context.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 10:54 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Metafilter: synecdoche, synopsis, and metaphor rolled together
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:56 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah I'm unsure why you need the "kabuki" at all. Wouldn't it just be better to just say "theater" and leave it at that?

I have always interpreted the 'kabuki' portion as indicating highly performative and stylized; theater's increased movements so the cheap seats can see the body language, but doubled again and with bright colors and contrast. But I don't see an issue with calling it a term that should be retired.
posted by phearlez at 10:57 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Good news, whoever had "mid-September" in the pool for when the National Review would surrender to #OkayTrump.

Money quote:
So he has just disappointed, week after week, the frenzied media lynch mob that had implied he was a racist, a misogynist, an inciter of violence, a vulgar buffoon, a member of the Flat Earth Society, an advocate of an automatic firearm for every white seven-year-old American, and probably an enemy of fluoridated drinking water. Of course, it was almost all nonsense, and as Trump has been uncontroversial, it has been Mrs. Clinton who has made the gaffes...
I want to watch the election they're covering.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:57 AM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


1: We're not IMPLYING.
2: Oh, well so long as it was almost all nonsense.
posted by phearlez at 10:58 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald's campaign wasn't going to say "hey everyone, we're all racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic folks, join us spread our fear and hate!" So Hillary dropped the "basket of deplorables," and his campaign picked it up with glee.

It makes me happy to see that the Clinton campaign has at last learned to weaponize cleek's law.

("Today’s conservatism is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily.")
posted by Gelatin at 10:59 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


cman: I think that it is human nature that after a certain amount of time, privileges start to feel like rights.

I agree, but in some cases, this is tricky territory when it comes to legal recourse and enforcement. Fun fact: in the US, by not stopping people from accessing public lands, especially/ specifically public beaches, that access can become public access.
In addition to interpreting and enforcing the public trust right of access, states may also provide the public with a right of access to and along the beach through the application of laws such as the traditional or customary use doctrine; prescriptive easements; express, implied, or mandatory dedication; and eminent domain.
Source: Surfrider Foundation's Beachapedia article on Beach Access.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:59 AM on September 13, 2016


soren_lorensen: Iiiii'm not sure they're trying to be ironic [about embracing "deplorable"]. I think a certain subset are pretty proud of being terrible people. Edgelords gonna edge.

Related: The strange story of how internet superfans reclaimed the insult ‘trash’ (webpage title: Why Hamilton fans call themselves “trash” on the internet)

But self-embracing "deplorables" are embracing their racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic views and actions that lead to actual emotional and physical suffering for others, where Hamilton (and other) fans are embracing their extreme fandom, which hurts no one.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:02 AM on September 13, 2016


While we have the baskets out for sorting 'deplorables', I wish more people would mention how revoltingly deplorable Mike Pence's record on LGBTQ issues is.
posted by puddledork at 11:03 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Obama is on, as usual. I am so glad I got to see him speak in person before.
posted by cashman at 11:04 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


From someone hanging Clinton in effigy from a crane: “Here you are. Got your attention, didn't it?”
The elaborate display put together by Billy Pitner, of Sutherlin, Oregon, consists of a rubber wet suit, adorned with women’s clothing and a blonde wig, hanging by the neck from a construction crane. Signs reading “Vote Trump” and “Treason? Ask her” [also "URANIUM ONE"] hang off the crane, along with several America flags.
I like his initiative and creativity, but that messaging is kind of all over the place.


Indeed. Someone on 18" stilts, and wearing a grass skirt, an eyepatch, a Stetson, and playing a mandolin would probably get your attention too, but to no coherent end.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:05 AM on September 13, 2016


Good news, whoever had "mid-September" in the pool for when the New Republic would surrender to #OkayTrump.

Uhhh that is the National Review, not the New Republic. They are conservative magazine, and as such are total dumb dumbs who can't read polls.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:06 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]




guys

it's Conrad Black

the man is pond scum
posted by mightygodking at 11:08 AM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


Listening to NPR yesterday they did long pieces on how Clinton is in trouble and needs to pull of the tailspin of the last week. The fact that she's ahead in the polls and nearly always has been didn't come up.
posted by bongo_x at 11:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Somebody fainted at the rally Obama is speaking at in Philadelphia. Obama handled it as he usually does - said someone fainted, and told ems they're near the front. Then he led the crowd in saying "bend your knees - don't lock 'em". And he said "we'll do a little exercise" and the crowd was bouncing along with him. Then he kept talking.

I love when he has these rallies because it feels like the world makes sense again. He says things that make complete sense. He engenders confidence in America as a good place with good people in it who can do good things together. That's how a president should make you feel.
posted by cashman at 11:09 AM on September 13, 2016 [88 favorites]


it's Conrad Black

the man is pond scum deplorable

Fixed.
posted by Gelatin at 11:10 AM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]


I like Samantha Bee but I don't really get her point of view. She's just kinda omnidirectional mad at stuff?

At least she's better than Jon Oliver and Trevor "Who?" Noah I guess. But the whole reason why Colbert worked so well was because his character was satire, not just "Fake news person reads headlines and is angry"?


I really like Samantha Bee and Jon Oliver. YMMV.

Colbert was specifically satirizing Bill O'Reilly. He's still very popular but almost not relevant anymore, at least not how he used to be. I loved Colbert, but his show satirized a type of conservative who is not nearly as powerful these days.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah, my fingers got ahead of my brain there. Edited out the typo.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016


Listening to NPR yesterday they did long pieces on how Clinton is in trouble

fortunately, a girl in trouble is a temporary thing
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Listening to NPR yesterday they did long pieces on how Clinton is in trouble and needs to pull of the tailspin of the last week. The fact that she's ahead in the polls and nearly always has been didn't come up.

Silly, going against the media's narrative with mere facts!
posted by Gelatin at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


The fact that she's ahead in the polls and nearly always has been didn't come up.

NPR is on my shitlist for the foreseeable future because of their terrible election coverage. "Foreseeable" here may mean "until the election is over", it's hard for me to imagine such a time.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:11 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


angrycat: If I came across a car with a sticker that said "trump that bitch" I would key the fuck out of it. I know that's wrong. I don't care.

Too-Ticky: I'd be tempted to add a comma after the name. Too subtle, I know!

Back in college, a friend and I realized a great way to "reply" to offensive and annoying bumper stickers: add another one that simply says "with cheese!" The message either becomes silly or completely absurd.

Sadly, I have yet to order those stickers, but I'm really tempted to throw my designs up on RedBubble and buy them for myself (unless anyone can suggest a cheaper route for a small order of 20 or so). Then again, I may chicken out when I have the sticker in hand, for fear of getting punched.

Nah, I think this election cycle has raised my ire to the point I would throw that sticker on a lot of cars.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:13 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


So Hillary and her campaign has smoothly made this about Donald, and he helped them out, time and time again.

The beauty of going up against a narcissistic sociopath.
posted by chris24 at 11:14 AM on September 13, 2016


Obama talking about Trump's foundation compared to the Clinton foundation. Says (and I'm paraphrasing) 'one is saving lives around the world while Trump used other people's charity donations to buy a 6-foot-tall painting of himself. ....at least he didn't go for the 10 foot version but...'
posted by cashman at 11:14 AM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


I love when he has these rallies because it feels like the world makes sense again. He says things that make complete sense.

It's because Obama is a very grounded, empathetic human being. He's a rare creature in politics for that reason.
posted by krinklyfig at 11:15 AM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


I liked Sam Bee a lot more before I found out her husband was essentially lobbying to keep their kids' Upper West Side schools segregated and telling other parents not to talk to the media about it.
posted by dialetheia at 11:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]



guys

it's Conrad Black

the man is pond scum


Yeah, I don't think anybody who's heard of him is surprised he wrote it, but NRO publishing it is hilarious.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:16 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Obama: I know...we're a restless country. We always like the new, shiny thing. I benefited from that when I was a candidate. But we need to remember and understand the steady, and the true. And Hillary is steady.

...She's in the arena, and you gotta get in there with her! Democracy is not a spectator sport.
posted by cashman at 11:18 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Obama: You gotta talk to your friends! Including your republican friends!

me: shit
posted by cashman at 11:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [34 favorites]


Convicted felon Conrad Black. Now that's the endorsement you want. I guess Lord Black can sympathize with Donald since he too has a preternatural habit of swindling. From being kicked out of Canada's toniest prep school for selling stolen exams to being kicked out of the US just because he had the foresight to know the newspaper business was done for and saw the perfect opportunity to run a Producers style scheme of embezzlement hidden under losses, Black has always been spiritual kith and kin to Trump.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 11:19 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Speaking of NPR and how they've finally made it onto my shitlist, I need moar podcasts. I listen to a lot of podcasts already--while I run, while I'm walking to/from my car after work, and while I'm falling asleep at night (it helps my anxiety and keeps me from lying there thinking that every single noise I hear is my house falling apart and Roman Mars is aural ambien). If I want to also listen to podcasts while commuting, I'm gonna need a bigger boat.

My current list:
99% Invisible
Criminal
Imaginary Worlds
Invisibilia
Keepin it 1600
Oh No, Ross and Carrie
Planet Money
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Radio Free GOP (which I don't always listen to becasue the AM Talk Radio presentation style is just nails-on-chalkboard to me and also I'm not a Republican)
RadioLab
Reply All
Science Vs.
Trumpcast
The Broad Experience
This American Life

Please, election thread denizens, help keep me from giving into the siren song of NPR on my car radio. Suggest more podcasts like above.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:21 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Christ, that NRO piece is some of the most pompous shit I've seen in a long time. I couldn't even get through an entire paragraph without my eyes rolling until I'd lost my place. Something about it being written by a "lord" just makes it extra ridiculous.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:23 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


....Suggest more podcasts like above.

I listen to:
With Her
The Run-Up
FiveThirtyEight Elections
Modern Love
The Splendid Table
In The Dark
The Way I Heard it, with Mike Rowe
Casefile True Crime
posted by Jacob G at 11:25 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Kind of inside baseball, but Chapo Trap House.
posted by arm426 at 11:26 AM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Politically Reactive, Hari Kondabolu and W. Kamau Bell's election/current events podcast! I'm really loving it so far, they've got great interviews and they're thoughtful and funny.
posted by yasaman at 11:27 AM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Speaking of the New Republic (lol) just published: The Media Is Botching the Election
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:27 AM on September 13, 2016


Convicted felon Conrad Black. Now that's the endorsement you want. I guess Lord Black can sympathize with Donald since he too has a preternatural habit of swindling. From being kicked out of Canada's toniest prep school for selling stolen exams to being kicked out of the US just because he had the foresight to know the newspaper business was done for and saw the perfect opportunity to run a Producers style scheme of embezzlement hidden under losses, Black has always been spiritual kith and kin to Trump.

Not to mention the "temporary" renouncement of his Canadian citizenship so he could sit in the House of Lords, only to "forget" to reapply for it because of his legal problems. For guys like Black and Trump, the rules aren't supposed to apply and there's always a reason why they shouldn't be accountable.
posted by nubs at 11:28 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whistlestop is about presidential elections of the past, with a wink to what's going on in the current one.
posted by Etrigan at 11:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I liked Sam Bee a lot more before I found out her husband was essentially lobbying to keep their kids' Upper West Side schools segregated and telling other parents not to talk to the media about it.

Ignoring for a second this wonderful mirror of a woman, once again, being inadvertently harmed by her husband's political positions, do you have a link that actually demonstrates Jones' opposition to the move? Because all he says in your article is the media will misconstrue whatever you say to them regardless of which side you're on - a statement shocking only for its banality, coming from a Daily Show correspondent.
posted by one_bean at 11:29 AM on September 13, 2016 [18 favorites]


Speaking of the New Republic (lol) just published: The Media Is Botching the Election

"The press is not a pro-democracy trade, it is a pro-media trade. By and large, it doesn’t act as a guardian of civic norms and liberal institutions—except when press freedoms and access itself are at stake"

I think there are some good points in that article; didn't a reporter yesterday make a half-joking tweet about the fact that a Trump presidency would be good for business?
posted by nubs at 11:34 AM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


do you have a link that actually demonstrates Jones' opposition to the move?

One P.S. 452 parent speaking out against the move is comedian and former Daily Show correspondent Jason Jones, who’s married to Samantha Bee. "To portray any opposition as classist or racist is as bad as it can get," Jones told WNYC. And elsewhere: "We are not divided,” he said at a public hearing about the proposal, “we are absolutely united in wanting what's best for our children," then encouraged fellow parents not to talk to the press about the controversy.
posted by dialetheia at 11:37 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Field report 2: Big billboard on the side of I-35: big, floating HRC and HO portraits on one side, and kindly-smiling realtor portrait on the other. Text: "LEAVING THE COUNTRY AFTER THE ELECTION? LET ME SELL YOUR HOUSE!"

Had to laugh.
posted by rp at 11:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


MSM all but handed him the primary with the constant barrage of what he was doing. All the outrageous stuff he was spouting was front and center and attracted all those deplorable voters. When the CEO of CBS actually says "he's not good for America but he's good for business," you know where their fucking priority lies.
posted by numaner at 11:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Great contrast. MSNBC shows Obama in Philadelphia on a Sunny day, near the art museum I believe, with a huge crowd of diverse, happy people. The sun gleaming down and people wearing sunglasses, and it just looked like a bright, gleeful occasion in the place people identify with the creation of America.

Then after covering some Hillary news - we knew she was releasing more medical records, they confirmed they'd be out in the next day, and would have nothing previously undisclosed - they showed tape of where Trump had been speaking.

Trump had spoken in Clive, IA, indoors, in a dark space where only he was visible while he talked. When they pulled back to do the post-event reporting, the space was still dark and looked like a high school gym sized space with what you'd expect his crowd to look like. I think MSNBC showed tape of him for about a minute, and he packed in at least 4 lies, including the ridiculousness of saying that "everything she's ever done has been a disaster".

But the contrast was just huge. One campaign is in the light, with a diverse group of people, talking about how we can work together to be better. The other is in the dark, in what literally almost looked like a basement, spouting lies and nonsense in a setting you'd expect of some group plotting to do something terrible.

And now, I'm back to not watching the talking heads for a while longer. I'd only tuned in because the stream I had was messing up.
posted by cashman at 11:40 AM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


....Suggest more podcasts like above.

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History. Anything to do with the fall of empires and the end of ages. I just finished up a 5 hour podcast on the end of the Persian Empire at Alexander's hands, from the perspective of the Persians. Sobering as all hell.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Mods, please permaban The World Famous for that horrible damn joke.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:42 AM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


One P.S. 452 parent speaking out against the move is comedian and former Daily Show correspondent Jason Jones

Interestingly, that article links and cites as its source the original article dialetheia linked to. Which doesn't actually state whether Jones is for or against the move. He says calling those opposed classist is bad. He also says later in the article that people complaining the school would "change" if it moved show little respect for the teachers. He calls out both sides (or rather, calls out those on both sides who are insulting the other side).
posted by Roommate at 11:45 AM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


I recently re-watched the great 1994 documentary The War Room, which follows the 1992 Clinton campaign from primaries to election day. It's an amazing time capsule, notable not only for how startlingly young both Bill and Hillary were then, but also for how vastly different the whole process was then as compared to now—simpler and, for lack of a better word, more naïve.

Also, there's the wonderful moment where campaign strategist James Carville gives his final pep talk to the troops on the eve of the election. Now, love Carville or loathe him, can you imagine anyone from the Trump campaign—Lewandowski, Manafort, Conway, Bannon—delivering such a spontaneous, humane, and human speech as this?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:46 AM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


New thread, new weirdest derail. #2016
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:47 AM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


There is no rail anymore.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 11:51 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Mod note: Folks, maybe let's drop the Samantha-Bee's-husband thing?
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Anybody who thinks somebody is going to get permabanned for horrible (awesome) jokes based on wordplay obviously doesn't remember that cortex is in charge these days.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


I dunno I've been tracking the derails and these are pretty middling, relatively speaking.
posted by Tevin at 11:53 AM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]




Steven Seagal is a real person

OK, I meant the characters in macho wish fulfilment movies generally, but not even Steven Seagal actually walks through restaurants flipping black ops baddies with his pinky.
posted by zennie at 12:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ciquizza: The Fix
The West Wing Weekly
So That Happened
Best of the Left
Off Message
Primary Concerns
No One Knows Anything
Politico's 2016 Nerdcast
Slate's Political Gabfest
Vox's The Weeds
Just subscribed, have not listened yet: The Politics Guys
Plus others mentioned previously
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:02 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


The elaborate display put together by Billy Pitner, of Sutherlin, Oregon, consists of a rubber wet suit, adorned with women’s clothing and a blonde wig, hanging by the neck from a construction crane. Signs reading “Vote Trump” and “Treason? Ask her” [also "URANIUM ONE"] hang off the crane, along with several America flags.

I like his initiative and creativity, but that messaging is kind of all over the place.
Every Presidential election year, a guy on one of the main roads through my town cobbles together a big sign from scraps of lumber and plywood, and spraypaints it with inarticulate rage-filled fox news word salad. Like, you can drive by it two dozen times and read all of the individual words, but it gives you a headache and refuses to coalesce into anything resembling a coherent message or idea.

This spring it was something about Obama Bin Laden Hillary Navy Seals Benghazi LIAR FOR PRESIDENT??? Then I think someone stole the sign, and I'm a little disappointed he hasn't replaced it.
posted by usonian at 12:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm a dad. I can't help it.

We caught you now Tim Kaine. Now we know why it seems the campaign is reading these threads.
posted by VTX at 12:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Podcast suggestions:

Politically Reactive with W. Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu -- this week's has a great interview with Shaun King.

I also have been enjoying Throwing Shade, looking at "the issues that affect ladies... and gays!"
posted by waitangi at 12:21 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


All you really need to know about today's Republican Party:

By a 59/8 spread, Trump voters in Virginia say they have a higher opinion of Vladimir Putin than Hillary Clinton.

But Clinton up 8% head to head, 6% in 4-way in VA. (PPPPolls)
posted by chris24 at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Mental health podcasts for soren-lorenson, from someone who can't even the CBC any more:

- All in the Mind (ABC-Australia on psych)
- Futility Closet (Odd little stories from history, plus logic puzzles)
- Future Tense (ABC-Australia on science and tech)
- Heavyweight (Jonathan Goldstein's new show for Gimlet after leaving Wiretap: episodes upcoming)
- How to be Amazing with Michael Ian Black (the Tim Gunn episode is a standout)
- In Our Time (Melvyn Bragg has Very Smart People come in to discuss the arts, history, science, whatever. Good to listen to and to fall asleep to)
- Longform (Writers talk about writing. Usually very informative and soothing)
- The Memory Palace (Tiny stories and insights from history, beautifully presented. Nate DiMeo is the anti-Dan Carlin in scope and tone, not that I'm dissing Carlin)
- The Moth (Storytime!)
- Popup Ideas (Anthro, culture and social science -- kind of like CBC's Ideas, but a limited run. Over when it's over. Sorry.)
- Something About the Beatles (If you like the Beatles and want to geek out on interpersonal relationships, isolated tracks, etc.)
- Song Exploder (How did that song get made? Recently: Bojack Horseman theme, Grimes, Andrew Bird)
- The Story Collider (Moth-esque true tales of science - often the best thing I hear all week)
- The Why Factor (BBC pop science that isn't stupid, each episode about a specific question)
- You Must Remember This (Karina Longworth dives deep into old Hollywood)
posted by maudlin at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2016 [40 favorites]


I have just requested 11/8 and 11/9 as days off from my office, because I will either be celebrating and then sleeping, or not celebrating and then sleeping.
posted by chonus at 12:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


"this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine

Honestly, thank god Obama's policies seem to have worked, because we'd be fucked this year if the economy really was as bad as Rs pretend.


From Joseph Stiglitz last year: Inequality is now killing middle America
The Case-Deaton results show that such theories will no longer do. America is becoming a more divided society – divided not only between whites and African Americans, but also between the 1% and the rest, and between the highly educated and the less educated, regardless of race. And the gap can now be measured not just in wages, but also in early deaths. White Americans, too, are dying earlier as their incomes decline.

This evidence is hardly a shock to those of us studying inequality in America. The median income of a full-time male employee is lower than it was 40 years ago. Wages of male high school graduates have plummeted by some 19% in the period studied by Case and Deaton.

To stay above water, many Americans borrowed from banks at usurious interest rates. In 2005, President George W. Bush’s administration made it far more difficult for households to declare bankruptcy and write off debt. Then came the financial crisis, which cost millions of Americans their jobs and homes. When unemployment insurance, designed for short-term bouts of joblessness in a full-employment world, ran out, they were left to fend for themselves, with no safety net (beyond food stamps), while the government bailed out the banks that had caused the crisis.

The basic perquisites of a middle-class life were increasingly beyond the reach of a growing share of Americans. The Great Recession had shown their vulnerability. Those who had invested in the stock market saw much of their wealth wiped out; those who had put their money in safe government bonds saw retirement income diminish to near zero, as the Fed relentlessly drove down both short- and long-term interest rates. With college tuition soaring, the only way their children could get the education that would provide a modicum of hope was to borrow; but, with education loans virtually never dischargeable, student debt seemed even worse than other forms of debt.

There was no way that this mounting financial pressure could not have placed middle-class Americans and their families under greater stress. And it is not surprising that this has been reflected in higher rates of drug abuse, alcoholism, and suicide.

I was chief economist of the World Bank in the late 1990s, when we began to receive similarly depressing news from Russia. Our data showed that GDP had fallen some 30% since the collapse of the Soviet Union. But we weren’t confident in our measurements. Data showing that male life expectancy was declining, even as it was increasing in the rest of the world, confirmed the impression that things were not going very well in Russia, especially outside of the major cities.

The international Commission on the Measurement of Economic Performance and Social Progress, which I co-chaired and on which Deaton served, had earlier emphasised that GDP often is not a good measure of a society’s wellbeing. These new data on white Americans’ declining health status confirms this conclusion. The world’s quintessential middle-class society is on the way to becoming its first former middle-class society.
posted by naju at 12:28 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump's Court Jesters: Meet the worst political team ever assembled—an inner circle of outcasts, opportunists, and extremists with nowhere else to go.
posted by peeedro at 12:30 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Inequality is now killing middle America

All of that is true and perhaps more so for people of color. But only white people are turning to fascism.
posted by chris24 at 12:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


WashingtonKayfabe.com is an available domain in case any of you intelligent people want to start a political commentary blog.

(Because it's 2003.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


All of that is true and perhaps more so for people of color. But only white people are turning to fascism.

Sure, but I was addressing the notion that this is all just a Republican made-up meme and the economy isn't that bad. It really is bizarre when the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats are. One of the ways this election year has felt like upside down world to me.
posted by naju at 12:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Not to mention Trump voters tend to be wealthier than Hillary's. But, yup, it's about the economy.
posted by asteria at 12:38 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


It really is bizarre when the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats are.

Cite?
posted by zutalors! at 12:38 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Republicans are addressing income inequality more than Hillary or the Dems?

Where?
posted by asteria at 12:39 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


It really is bizarre when the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats are.

Sorry but the party wanting tax breaks for the rich and to end the inheritance tax is not more accurate and outspoken on income equality.
posted by chris24 at 12:40 PM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


Republicans are addressing income inequality more than Hillary or the Dems

confusedScoobyDooSound.mp3
posted by emjaybee at 12:41 PM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


Sorry but the party wanting tax breaks for the rich and to end the inheritance tax is not more accurate on income equality.

Yeah, I agree with those above -- Sanders did good work in putting income inequality on the national agenda, but said inequality is caused by policies favored by Republican elites. That Republican voters don't necessarily benefit from said policies has been known for quite some time.
posted by Gelatin at 12:43 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Because it's 2003.)

Uh well then I'd better register KayfabePundit.com instead
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:43 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


This spring it was something about Obama Bin Laden Hillary Navy Seals Benghazi LIAR FOR PRESIDENT???

I saw a very similar sign in a more...rustic part of my state the other day. It was pretty large, and appeared to have been custom-printed onto a vinyl banner, which can't have been cheap. It was hung on a piece of farm equipment in a field by the road – on some kind of boom, in fact, which had been raised to place the banner in the optimal in-your-face position for passing motorists.

Then I saw another such banner in a different field in the same area. And the next day, I saw a giant hand-lettered sign on the back of a beat-up old pickup (driven by an old white guy, natch).

Each of them was a riot of different colors and fonts, with LOTS OF ALL-CAPS and Random Things in BOLD and Italics. None of them had any comprehensible message or argument – just a bunch of alarmist shrieking about Benghazi and emails and Hillary is the DEVIL and a corrupt incompetent liar. Both the design and the content of the text were very much like Time Cube, or any other conspiracy site.

So: it's a thing. Who needs facts or logic, when a sufficiently rabid froth of acrimony, bluster, and scaremongering makes you the dick-swingin'est, dare-you-to-start-somethin' tough guy in the holler? No wonder these guys love Trump: he may be a New Yorker born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but in terms of sheer jackassery, he really is one of them.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:44 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


custom-printed onto a vinyl banner, which can't have been cheap

Actually those are pretty cheap online these days. So if you wanted to, for example, print a banner that said TACO TRUCKS AND LESBIAN FARMERS YEAH!!! you could get that done for not that much.
posted by emjaybee at 12:46 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Conway is at it again



Conway: "This is the tradition of the Trump campaign, now. We talk about policy every single day."
[...] I'm just so proud, Andrea [Mitchell] to be work in a campaign that is tackling this. Republicans usually do not tackle this, particularly at the Presidential level. It's like let's just look the other way. What does it not poll well? In other words we are trying to capture the culture here and have policy responses to whatever is frustrating or concerning or even animating and exciting people. And so if you look at this plan, and the whole plan will be revealed, there will be an op ed, there's a plan, there's background, there are experts to be consulted-- it's really exciting that we've got Hillary Clinton talking about she's always been fighting for children. She fights for children. We can't really find a lot about her childcare policy on her website. Maybe they are putting it up now as I speak to you, but we know they talk about it, but we're actually going to do it.

We actually-- this is the tradition of the Trump campaign, now. We talk about policy every single day. Law enforcement, defeating radical Islam, middle class tax relief, we'll be talking about what's next after ObamaCare soon, we talked about school choice and charters last week, the military yesterday, today is childcare. So we're always doing something to answer those questions that voters legitimately have, Andrea, which is what will you do as Commander-in-Chief?
MSNBC points out Clinton has more policy on site. Conway: Sounds like something a politician and a bureaucrat does
Well the hundred and one thousand words definitely sounds like something a politician and a bureaucrat does. They do it with our tax codes, they do it on their websites. If we're going to run this election expecting the voters to go to our websites and figure out what these people believe on policy, I respect the voters more than that. I think they'd prefer these candidates come to them or at least make public statements, where you have a four or five point, ten point road map in the case of our Veteran's Administration reform plan, Andrea. This idea that we're going to do it on websites is just, basically, Clinton's going to fly around just raising money and not talking to voters? I think it's a losing formula and I think they stick with it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


emjaybee, I don't understand why you left out the question mark that made it clear I was questioning something.
posted by asteria at 12:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


They do it with our tax codes, they do it on their websites. If we're going to run this election expecting the voters to go to our websites and figure out what these people believe on policy, I respect the voters more than that.

IDK why this stuff isn't the thing that makes this election "upside down world" instead of supposed great Republican talking points for the poor.
posted by zutalors! at 12:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Well the hundred and one thousand words definitely sounds like something a politician and a bureaucrat does. If we're going to run this election expecting the voters to go to our websites and figure out what these people believe on policy, I respect the voters more than that.

Talk about a post-policy candidate.

We don't need all them words to express our positions! Think of all the work that would take, and then we've have to start all over tomorrow when he changes his mind!
posted by leotrotsky at 12:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


if you wanted to, for example, print a banner that said TACO TRUCKS AND LESBIAN FARMERS YEAH!!!

If, you say?

(Only $42 from VistaPrint – not bad!)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


the Republicans seem to be more accurate and outspoken on economic inequality than the Democrats

Also, we just had the best Census Report on Income and Poverty in history. With record levels of income growth for the lower and middle class and the biggest drop in poverty in 48 years. After the implementation of Obamacare and tax hikes on the rich by Democrats.
posted by chris24 at 12:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [31 favorites]


I was questioning the whole idea, not your restatement of it in particular, asteria!
posted by emjaybee at 12:53 PM on September 13, 2016


Also, we just had the best Census Report on Income and Poverty in history. With record levels of income growth for the lower and middle class and the biggest drop in poverty in 48 years. After the implementation of Obamacare and tax hikes on the rich by Democrats.

Both the stock market and the broader economy are doing decent as well.

“The U.S. LEI picked up again in July, suggesting moderate economic growth should continue through the end of 2016,” said Ataman Ozyildirim, Director of Business Cycles and Growth Research at The Conference Board. “There may even be some moderate upside growth potential if recent improvements in manufacturing and construction are sustained, and average consumer expectations don’t deteriorate further.”

Call it Trickle-Up Economics. You help the poor and middle class, and golly gee they buy stuff!
posted by leotrotsky at 12:56 PM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


Calm down, when I said Republicans seem more concerned than Democrats, it's because of these two things I quoted directly from this thread:

1. "this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine

2. Honestly, thank god Obama's policies seem to have worked, because we'd be fucked this year if the economy really was as bad as Rs pretend.

If this is a sign of how Democrats are thinking then lord help us.

Trump would be a disaster, no doubt about it. But it's worth nothing that the Republican platform right now is in favor of breaking up the big banks, reinstating Glass-Steagal, and is strongly (rather than kinda-weakly, in Clinton's case) opposed to the TPP which would be outrageous. He's interested in renegotiating NAFTA. These are things people want, and there's a progressive case for them. It's upside-down world that this is all happening within the Republican party this year.

The Dems have said "America never stopped being great." Trump's reply was more or less on target: "Our country does not feel 'great already' to the millions of wonderful people living in poverty, violence and despair." His solutions are pretty horrifying. But it's weird and offputting how much people want to ignore the economy, and for all his many faults he's pounded on that message consistently.
posted by naju at 12:57 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


And the stock market's doing relatively decent as well.

S&P is up 264% since his inauguration.
posted by chris24 at 1:00 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


the Republican platform right now is in favor of breaking up the big banks, reinstating Glass-Steagal,

You seriously think the GOP House and Senate will forward that bill to Trump?

Trump's reply was more or less on target: "Our country does not feel 'great already' to the millions of wonderful people living in poverty, violence and despair."

I think you mean "I'm losing my white privilege" to the millions of racists and fascists. Because funny how they didn't act like this when the economy was unfair and shitty under Bush.
posted by chris24 at 1:04 PM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]


We're not ignoring the economy, it is actually doing better. The twitter left are the one ignoring the actual numbers on the economy in favor of dank Stalin memes. Capitalism isn't fixed, but Obama has been fixing it, and Hillary is pledging to continue his policies. Give them credit for doing so or be as adrift from reality as the Hillarymen.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:05 PM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


But it's weird and offputting how much people want to ignore the economy, and for all his many faults he's pounded on that message consistently.

He only pounds on the parts of the economy that he can easily blame on a scapegoat. If all you hear is "The economy is bad-" then you're missing the 2nd part of his message: "-because of them."
posted by FJT at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]


"this economy, amirite?" has just become a meme even among people who are doing just fine

Notice this was couched as a musing rather than a statement of fact and that I suggested that actually when people complain about the economy what they maybe should be complaining about is a lack of social safety net (because no economy in the history of ever has been without cyclical growth and contraction). Because I have seen people doing this in front of my eyes, people who I know for a fact have very comfortable upper middle class lives but bitch endlessly about how the "economy these days" is getting them down even though all major indicators are plenty up, nationally and for them personally. Well-off people complaining about the terrible, terrible no-good economy that is totes effecting them personally is definitely a thing, and seems to be an inability to recognize that a black guy and the federal government completely saved their personal bacon.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


But it's weird and offputting how much people want to ignore the economy, and for all his many faults he's pounded on that message consistently.
Thank goodness Hillary's got our backs, then.
posted by xyzzy at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


The Dems have said "America never stopped being great." Trump's reply was more or less on target: "Our country does not feel 'great already' to the millions of wonderful people living in poverty, violence and despair."

Except that when asked about the economy, minorities (who, let's remember, were impacted much more deeply by the Great Recession) have been optimistic about the economy. "Economic anxiety" is a purely racial phenomenon, and that's because it's not really about the economy, but about race and privilege.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:08 PM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


Call it Trickle-Up Economics. You help the poor and middle class, and golly gee they buy stuff!

Another of those quiet Obama policies: sunsetting the top-end Bush tax cut amid all of the shutdowns and artificial debt crises generated by the House.

And Conway's tactics again remind us that the TV prohibition on the word "bullshit" is harmful. She's proficient in duckspeak:
The speech had been proceeding for perhaps twenty minutes when a messenger hurried on to the platform and a scrap of paper was slipped into the speaker's hand. He unrolled and read it without pausing in his speech. Nothing altered in his voice or manner, or in the content of what he was saying, but suddenly the names were different. Without words said, a wave of understanding rippled through the crowd. Oceania was at war with Eastasia! The next moment there was a tremendous commotion. The banners and posters with which the square was decorated were all wrong! Quite half of them had the wrong faces on them. It was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work!
posted by holgate at 1:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


the Hillarymen.

the who now? wait, is she assembling a ruthless, loyal army of soldier-fanatics answerable only to her?

is there a website or brochure with more information on this...?
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [22 favorites]


How the 2016 Election Killed the Golden Calf of Economic Growth
Despite the fact that the United States’ GDP now exceeds pre-crisis levels by over $2 trillion, and the unemployment rate is at a post-recession low of 4.9 percent, a growing proportion of the American electorate is not impressed. Economic growth has returned, the voters have understood, but that has by no means correlated with an economic system that works for them.

Bernie Sanders’s insurgent campaign was propelled by different data: gaping income inequality, stagnant wages, the amount of growth siphoned off by the 1 percent, and the underemployment rate. Donald Trump’s campaign has partly been a cri de coeur against a neoliberal consensus that had favored trade deals at the expense of manufacturing jobs in the United States. Both candidates, using new economic criteria, brought new voters into the fold and have helped lay the foundation for an alternative way to determine whether the economy is doing what it should be doing.
Also from the piece:
A deluge of academic research has confirmed that economic growth is not a reliable indicator of broad-based economic health. The greatest contribution to this field in recent years has been Thomas Piketty’s totemic work, Capital in the Twenty-First Century, which argued that over the last four decades the overwhelming majority of the population in the United States has witnessed a relative decline in income and standard of living—all while economic growth has continued apace.
posted by naju at 1:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


It seems to me that the stock market's strength is less and less indicative of the lived experience and relative prosperity of ordinary Americans, presumably because of the gap between productivity and real wages that's opened up since the 1970s. (Note: this is my thoroughly non-economist presumption)

But that poverty report does seems to be unequivocally good news in a year that's been pretty bereft thereof. President Obama looks pretty happy about it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


the Hillarymen.

the who now? wait, is she assembling a ruthless, loyal army of soldier-fanatics answerable only to her?

is there a website or brochure with more information on this...?


Just listen for the swooshing of the matching pantsuits.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:13 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Economic anxiety" is a purely racial phenomenon, and that's because it's not really about the economy, but about race and privilege.

What the what? Are you suggesting that when white people living in poverty are unhappy about it, it simply doesn't matter because minorities are "optimistic" about the economy? Because that's how this comment reads to me, although I'm open to clarification.

Can we not allow that for a large portion of the white people in our economy, things are progressively getting worse (or it seems that way to them), and they are allowed to feel upset about that? It's this kind of rhetoric (white people aren't allowed to feel a certain way that legitimately has NOTHING to do with race) that is polarizing the race and leading people to Trump.
posted by permiechickie at 1:16 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]




How the 2016 Election Killed the Golden Calf of Economic Growth

Ok, so this article focuses as much on Sanders turning around the income equality conversation as Trump and Republicans. Things that either were already part of Clinton's platform or became part of it. So how does this show that Republicans are more focused than Dems?
posted by chris24 at 1:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Well, the stock market not completely shitting the bed is good news for the 88 million Americans whose retirement accounts are tied up in it. (Leaving aside for the moment the fact that they shouldn't be, but right now it is what it is and workers can't really do anything about it short of organizing on a massive scale.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:18 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


Worth noting that when I said the Dems don't seem all that concerned about the economy, I'm simultaneously getting two replies: "What?! That's nonsense" and "the economy is doing better than ever and people are doing great." So, uh.
posted by naju at 1:18 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


It seems to me that the stock market's strength is less and less indicative of the lived experience and relative prosperity of ordinary Americans

True, but for middle class Americans with 401Ks or IRAs, it's huge.
posted by chris24 at 1:19 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


if you wanted to, for example, print a banner that said TACO TRUCKS AND LESBIAN FARMERS YEAH!!! you could get that done for not that much.

I could get behind a campaign to add official-looking "Taco Truck Parking" to corner signs.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


There was good news in the report released today. Not "everything is solved" news, but positive progress. No one has said that everyone is universally doing great.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]




I'm simultaneously getting two replies: "What?! That's nonsense" and "the economy is doing better than ever and people are doing great." So, uh.

I don't think it's that hard to figure. 1) The idea that Rs are more focused and concerned about income inequality is laughable in my opinion. 2) The economy has definitely gotten better and did just have it's best improvement year ever. Is it perfect? No.
posted by chris24 at 1:22 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm simultaneously getting two replies: "What?! That's nonsense" and "the economy is doing better than ever and people are doing great."

I think part of the reason you're getting pushback is that you're making up how people feel and crudely paraphrasing what they are saying. You don't really have a lot of evidence of this great Republican strategy outside of Donald Trump fueling economic anxiety, which he is blaming immigrants for, in part.
posted by zutalors! at 1:22 PM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Are you suggesting that when white people living in poverty are unhappy about it, it simply doesn't matter because minorities are "optimistic" about the economy?

No, I'm suggesting that when it's the socially privileged group that's fretting over the economy and minority communities which were more deeply impacted aren't, that maybe the issue isn't actually the economy. Because the sense I get from what I've read and seen is that the economy is just a convenient cover for complaints about the loss of privilege in society.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


I think it's generally understood that what's upsetting some lower-income white people is the relative decline in their economic situation, as opposed to their absolute position (still better than most minority groups).

It's just kind of hard to swallow when you see conservatives suddenly all up in arms about Jobs and Poverty and Obama / Democrats Don't Care About Rural Poverty. Particularly given the long and sordid history of rich people stirring up racist sentiment in order to divide the working class.

I understand where these folks are coming from and have some sympathy for them, but it's not okay for them to vote for people who will hurt other people just because they're hurting now too.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:26 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Hoover was an engineer.

Damn.
posted by The World Famous at 9:40 AM on September 13


This is why his name is The World Famous. This is the ultimate dad joke of all time and I will live the rest of my life making jokes in the shadow of this one, and grateful to have lived in the Era when he wrote it. No sarcasm.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:27 PM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]



Can we not allow that for a large portion of the white people in our economy, things are progressively getting worse (or it seems that way to them), and they are allowed to feel upset about that?


They're allowed to feel upset, but when they blame it on immigrants, women, etc I can't feel sympathy for them. That's what the Trump campaign is doing, and "everybody knows it," to borrow a phrase.
posted by zutalors! at 1:30 PM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


Maybe this is a stupid question, but aren't income inequality, wealth inequality and financial insecurity all parts of "the economy"?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:30 PM on September 13, 2016


Republicans are addressing income inequality more than Hillary or the Dems

I guess "that union rep (or black guy, or immigrant, or whatever) is gonna steal your donut" is addressing income inequality, kind of.

the Hillarymen.
the who now? wait, is she assembling a ruthless, loyal army of soldier-fanatics answerable only to her?


Yes, she is, but you're thinking about the Beyonces. The Hillarymen are a completely different terrifying conspiracy.
posted by jackbishop at 1:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I think you mean "I'm losing my white privilege" to the millions of racists and fascists.

So, when I say that I have a really good job that pays $65,000 per year but going by 1978 income distribution, I should making more like $90,000-$100,000, I'm complaining about privilege?

Now, the averages behind those numbers vary a lot based on race so I, as a white male, should be on the lower end of any raise that comes from fixing income inequality, I get that and I think I'm acknowledging the advantage I get from my privilege, it's an advantage that I actively work at minimizing. These are advantages that I just have without doing anything and they're advantages I want everyone to have.

So maybe what you're driving at here is that difference between me and a Trump supporter is that I bitch about the economy in terms of "this sucks for me and it's even worse for minority groups" and Trump supports go the other way?
posted by VTX at 1:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think part of the reason you're getting pushback is that you're making up how people feel and crudely paraphrasing what they are saying. You don't really have a lot of evidence of this great Republican strategy outside of Donald Trump fueling economic anxiety, which he is blaming immigrants for, in part.

Could be. But that also seems like a misstatement of what I've been saying, though. At no point am I denying that Trump is trying to blame immigrants or that he has an agenda. I'm. Not. Defending. Trump. He's a racist, baiting, insincere ass. Clear? I hate the Republicans. But I have been laying out a case that actual economic realities for people may not be as great as the numbers suggest, and that people are actually struggling quite a bit. For all his (many. many. many) faults, he's at least acknowledging that for people, and they're responding to it. I haven't seen the same level of that from our side. I've seen quite a few problems from our side.
posted by naju at 1:34 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


he's at least acknowledging that for people, and they're responding to it

This is the grading on a curve. He's "acknowledging" it by blaming immigrants, talking about bringing coal jobs back, very specifically dogwhistling who he will "help" and who he will not. Meanwhile The Wall, plus his proposed tax cuts, plus his military expansion, will not be doing anything positive for his target audience.
posted by zutalors! at 1:39 PM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Still avoiding cable news which is helping my anxiety levels. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the polling averages (which are a lagging indicator) will show a tiny Trump lead by or shortly after the first debate. That's the polling average, not the individual polls. Which will cause the JCPL to spike to unprecedented levels.
posted by Justinian at 1:44 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


The standard toolkit to deal with geographical economic disparities is education and training and an attempt to build and support specialised clusters for network multipliers, along with tax incentives for investment. The last part is messier because municipalities can't move while companies can, so you end up with bidding wars that often forego any direct revenue in exchange for jobs. (A minor example: southern states throwing money at big-budget film productions, in effect having to undercut each other.)

As I've said here, the other problem with education/training/investment is that it inevitably leads to new social and geographical configurations, both in places that aren't direct beneficiaries and those which are: see, for instance, the Boston Globe piece on Norcross, GA, which has been enveloped by the expansion of metro Atlanta so that a growing middle-class Hispanic population lives alongside white people who remember when it was a small town in farm country.

But even that doesn't acknowledge that work in developed nations isn't really "doing stuff in factories" any more. (Though perhaps too much of it is "running around Amazon warehouses against a brutally punitive clock".) The question of what is work? is a politically difficult one to raise.

"We'll make Apple manufacture iPhones in America" is not a plan.
posted by holgate at 1:45 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


The "but Trump is awful" response to any criticism is a bit tiring. Yes, I know he's bad. We all know. I'm terrified. But some criticisms of the Democrats are allowed to exist regardless. Sorry, I'm moving on to other topics.
posted by naju at 1:45 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


talking about bringing coal jobs back

Steel, too. Which everyone in steel country (hello!) knows is never going to happen. His supporters here, though, like that he's spinning this fantasy with them in mind. They feel heard and valued by that. But it is pure la-la land nonsense. He knows it. They know it. But such distrust in institutions of government has been sewn that people believe that their only options are "brief collective hallucination" or nothing at all. The idea that there could be a governmental policy that could help the situation is a non-starter.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]




The "but Trump is awful" response to any criticism


Again, a misrepresentation of what is happening.
posted by zutalors! at 1:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


So maybe what you're driving at here is that difference between me and a Trump supporter is that I bitch about the economy in terms of "this sucks for me and it's even worse for minority groups" and Trump supports go the other way?

Yes, I was addressing Trump supporters. Not white people in general. There's been lots of studies that economic insecurity is not the engine behind Trump and that racial animus is the best correlation. So I think it's fair based on his supporters' statements to pollsters and their actions, and the man and his message itself to say that it's focused on blaming others, people of color, for their perceived and/or real loss of privilege and/or income.
posted by chris24 at 1:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]




I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the polling averages (which are a lagging indicator) will show a tiny Trump lead by or shortly after the first debate

Yeah, I think we'll be right around a dead heat before the debates. I'm also beginning to believe that the only debate that will matter is the first one; I don't think the attention-span-news-cycle relationship this time around will hold out long enough for all of them. Except in the case of a totally catastrophic performance on the part of either one of them, I think any outcome between strong victory for either party and completely boring tie will be downplayed all around.
posted by penduluum at 1:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


If there is a failing in the discussion of the economy, it is not that Democrats don't discuss the topic, but instead they tend to focus on the middle class (they actually talk about it all the time: example, example). Poverty comes up very rarely, and the people who are really feeling the pinch, who are not benefiting from the upturn in the economy, are the very poor. Minorities tend to be overrepresented in this group, but it is largely white, and I could sympathize with them feeling frustrated that their needs are not being addressed.

However, this is not Trump's followers. The median household income of a Trump voter in the primaries was about $72,000 -- that's not poor. It's the middle class that the Dems relentlessly talk about. And, sure, they feel they are slipping, but their support of Trump isn't based on the fact that he's giving some sort of real talk about the economy that the Dems haven't bothered with. It's because they don't like the Dems' solutions, because they are angry and are looking at someone who is channeling that anger.

Trumpism isn't about the economy. It's about a perceived slippage in status that is directly linked to an actual slippage in privilege, and the rage that results from that. Any discussion of the economy is just a Jungian shadow puppet show for the real issue, which is that privileged white people, who are the group who are bouncing back fastest after the economic free fall, nonetheless can't stand that the world has changed, and disguise their sexism and racism by pretending the Dems are bad for the economy. This is demonstrably not true, and to suggest otherwise, to suggest that somehow the Republican attracts followers because they're the only ones talking economics, is absurd.

The Republican economic agenda has not been forwarding Trumpism. He doesn't promote it, follow it, or even seen to be aware of it. Trump is fueled by white rage over peceived loss of status.
posted by maxsparber at 1:50 PM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


OK, "but Trump is insincere about everything he says", which, yep. I agree.
posted by naju at 1:50 PM on September 13, 2016


For all his (many. many. many) faults, he's at least acknowledging that for people, and they're responding to it. I haven't seen the same level of that from our side.

This flies in the face of the entire Sanders campaign and the Democratic adoption of the points that Clinton didn't already have as part of her platform.
posted by chris24 at 1:50 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


"We'll make Apple manufacture iPhones in America" is not a plan.

For lots of reasons, not the least of which is that we don't really want it. A lot of the interesting and profitable aspects of Apple's manufacture are already done in the US. The assembly process they outsource to China is, frankly, shit work for shit wages. Now, granted, even that starts to look good if you're unemployed long-term in a country without a social safety net, but I don't think a race to the bottom is actually what America needs to juice its economy.
posted by jackbishop at 1:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is the grading on a curve. He's "acknowledging" it by blaming immigrants

naju has really gone out of his way to make clear that he is not defending Trump.

We can acknowledge that part of Trump's success has come from tapping into white folks' economic anxiety, while still believing that the way Trump is exploiting that anxiety is dangerous and indefensible.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Can we not allow that for a large portion of the white people in our economy, things are progressively getting worse (or it seems that way to them), and they are allowed to feel upset about that?

Okay, so let me get this straight. When that portion of white people are upset they just express it by not letting transgender folks choose what restroom to use, refuse any kind of gun control, say that Muslims should eat bacon to prove themselves, and simply want 11 million people to 'go away' and build a wall so they will never come back?

It's not true that the US was totally great before and then a bunch of evil Japanese, Chinese, Mexicans, and Muslims started invading with their cheap goods, cheap labor, and cheap attacks on the good ol' America. So, if it isn't true then how did the connection get made? People don't always react this way when their upset. I think we have to recognize that people are allowed to be upset, but they've had a hand in priming themselves to react and continue to act this way when they are upset.
posted by FJT at 1:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


Now Venus may be utterly inhospitable with a deadly poison atmosphere, but Earth? Earth has some issues too, let's not be afraid to call it out when necessary
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [27 favorites]


Kurt Eichenwald (Vanity Fair, Newsweek): I believe Trump was institutionalized in a mental hospital for a nervous breakdown in 1990, which is why he won't release medical records.
posted by PenDevil at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Just wanted to chime in: Pence's refusal to rebuke David Duke (Pence pukes over Duke rebuke?) is not turning up on the front pages of NYT, WaPo, LA Times, or USA Today websites. It DOES show up on the front pages of nbcnews.com, abcnews.com, and politico.

Just so we're clear on this: 'Lyin' Ted Cruz, 'Crooked' Hillary, 'Little' Marco, 'Little' Katy Tur, 'Low Energy' Jeb, 'Terrible' Michelle Fields, Liz 'Pocahontas' Warren, Megyn 'Blood-Coming-Out-Of-Her-Wherever' Kelly, Gail 'Face of a Dog' Collins, Bette 'Extremely Unattractive' Middler? Hey, we shoot from the hip! Deal with it. But 'Deplorable' David Duke, the Holocaust denier and former Imperial Wizard of the KKK? Please, people, let's have some decorum. We're not in the name calling business.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [76 favorites]


The Democratic adoption of those points was paper thin and a ploy at the convention to unite the party. If it's substantial and has become a core part of Clinton's campaign then I'd be interested in links to her speeches to that effect.
posted by naju at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's been shown to my satisfaction that the idea that Trump voters are Trump voters based on economic anxiety is overplayed. What they are really basing it on is racial anxiety.
posted by Justinian at 1:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [29 favorites]




The Democratic adoption of those points was paper thin and a ploy at the convention to unite the party.


So you think people saying Republicans/Trump won't keep promises wrt to Glass-Steagall etc is a terrible argument, but this is a sound assertion?
posted by zutalors! at 1:55 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


If it's substantial and has become a core part of Clinton's campaign then I'd be interested in links to her speeches to that effect.

You realize that you're moving goalposts, right?
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:57 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm not saying either are sound or particularly sincere. The latter was mostly to get Sanders folks into the fold and I haven't seen much about it since.
posted by naju at 1:59 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


> But here's the problem. When we offer hope, in the form of help that would be especially useful to many disaffected white voters, in the form of, say, better health insurance options, a non-trivial number panic and treat it as a communist plot. Same with the reactions to paid family leave, making college more affordable, etc...

It would help if most upper-middle class Democrats weren't virulently class-bigoted, and the Democratic Party hadn't abandoned it's former tradition of support for economically progressive policies. What you're saying would make more sense if the Party was offering some kind of hope, and currently the Party is offering only contempt. Claiming the Democratic Party cares about poor people is like Republicans claiming to be the Party of Lincoln.

I spent a good bit this past primary season arguing with Democrats who claimed that universal access to health care, paid parental leave, subsidized college tuition, and subsidized pre-school or day care are inherently racist, misogynist policies, and anyone who advocates these policies should be driven out of the Democratic Party, and every vote working-class Democrats like me have ever cast for a Democratic candidate is a disgrace to the Party. (Not here on MeFi very much. Our moderators keep a lot that stuff in check, especially when it gets personal. But I spent a lot of time during the primaries on Daily Kos which doesn't have human moderation.)

There are Democrats who care about poor and working-class people, but we're a despised, though sizeable minority within the Party. There aren't enough of us to have much influence on policy.

I don't think policies designed to alleviate income inequality and remove some obstacles to class mobility would win over many of the fanatical racists who support Trump, who are mostly committed Republicans anyway, but such policies could win over working-class people who currently don't vote because they think neither party cares about them or represents their interests. (I used to be that category myself.) We're going to have to overcome a lot of resistance in our own Party to get there though.
posted by nangar at 2:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


We can acknowledge that part of Trump's success has come from tapping into white folks' economic anxiety, while still believing that the way Trump is exploiting that anxiety is dangerous and indefensible.

We have been - by pointing out that "economic anxiety", a phenomenon that cleaves primarily by race, not economic level, is fundamentally not about the economy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Look, my father taught freshman-level film classes at various colleges, and every year he taught students who not only had never figured out that actors don't just make up their lines, they continued, throughout the class, to be confused about the difference between the actor and what the character did. I remember my father's account of his patient dialogue with a student who swore Sylvester Stallone, a.k.a Rambo, really was an American hero, because of those things he did. This person not only never got the distinction, he never cared; it was my father who put all the energy into the point.

Jesus fucking Christ on a pogo stick. It is genuinely astonishing to me that that could be a thing in a person who a) is without severe learning difficulties, b) has graduated school, and c) has somehow been accepted into a course where they have that little understanding of the subject. My astonishment, to be clear, would already be extremely high at point a.
posted by jaduncan at 2:02 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm not saying either are sound or particularly sincere. The latter was mostly to get Sanders folks into the fold and I haven't seen much about it since.

You're joking, right? Look at Clinton's paid leave proposal - which has been getting a lot of airtime today, thanks to Trump’s joke of a proposal.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:04 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


If it's substantial and has become a core part of Clinton's campaign then I'd be interested in links to her speeches to that effect

Her announcement speech from June 2015 before Sanders was even a thing where she:

1) Called to make college more affordable and reduce student debt
2) Called for an increase in the minimum wage
3) Called for a constitutional amendment to repeal Citizen's United
4) Called for paid family leave
5) Pledged to maintain and strengthen financial regulations
6) Pledged to transition more to clean energy
7) Called for universal automatic voter registration
posted by chris24 at 2:15 PM on September 13, 2016 [70 favorites]


But it's worth nothing [noting?]that the Republican platform right now is in favor of breaking up the big banks, reinstating Glass-Steagal

It's also worth noting that in the very same paragraph of the Republican platform they advocate neutering the Department of Labor and the National Labor Relations Board, repealing laws protecting unions, repealing Obamacare, and repealing Dodd-Frank and specifically the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) which just last week fined Wells Fargo $185 million for credit fraud. Oh, and abolishing internet neutrality just for good measure.

That's the progressive case the Republicans are making? That's deplorable.
posted by JackFlash at 2:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [41 favorites]


naju has really gone out of his way to make clear that he is not defending Trump.

Yeah, but then he says something demonstrably false and/or disingenuous about Republicans/Trump's or Dem positions. I'm sorry but it feels like concern trolling to me.
posted by chris24 at 2:19 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Keith Olbermann is back, this time via the GQ website. 176 Reasons Donald Trump Shouldn't Be President
posted by Surely This at 2:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Obama Warns Media To Stop Covering Election Like A Reality Show

I realized today that a large chunk of the media now covers politics in the exact same way that those magazines in supermarket checkout lanes cover celebrities.

They need drama; they need scandal. If they can dig up the kernel of something real, they'll trump it up (heh) into high intrigue. If there isn't, they'll just make shit up. Clinton sneezed? "HILLARY ON DEATH'S DOOR? – Source Says She Has Weeks to Live". Clinton once met a famous person in connection with her foundation? "BEHIND CLOSED DOORS – The Shocking Allegations She Doesn't Want You to Know". Et cetera.

And if any given story turns out to be bunk – who cares? If you're pointing to inconsistencies or even outright falsehoods in the "reporting", you're missing the point. It's meant to be consumed the same way people consume episodic television: without too much concern for continuity or internal logic, as long as there's good drama. Characters will behave inconsistently, as needed by this week's plot (Hillary is incompetent! Hillary is devious and Machiavellian!). And if ratings for the Benghazi arc start flagging, the writers' room will come up with something new.

The people who consume this stuff will claim to care about objectivity, and journalistic standards, and so forth, because they know they're supposed to care about those things (and they'll scream bloody murder about them with regard to their candidate) – but in their heart of hearts, they don't. Not really. Maybe they don't even know what those words mean, or believe that such things are real. I'd wager some of them, if pressed, would offer some version of "well, it's true for me" – meaning, "it justifies and validates all the things that I want to say and do anyway, without requiring me to admit any fault or do any difficult thinking or self-reflection, and that's good enough for me".

The fact that anyone considers that an acceptable justification, for anything, is a disgrace. If the best you can say for your position is that you, personally, strongly prefer it, and how dare anyone expect you to support it with logic or evidence, then you should be humiliated by that admission. We would do well to reproach that defense wherever it is proffered.

Honestly, the failure of the media in 2016 may be the scariest part of this whole mess. Journalistic standards, trust in the media, and the consensus reality that they're supposed to establish seem to be hanging by a thread – and if that thread breaks, then God help us all.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:21 PM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]


Rereading her announcement speech, I love this part.

"Well, I may not be the youngest candidate in this race. But I will be the youngest woman President in the history of the United States! And the first grandmother as well.
And one additional advantage: You won’t see my hair turn white in the White House. I’ve been coloring it for years!"
posted by chris24 at 2:27 PM on September 13, 2016 [48 favorites]


Keith Olbermann is back, this time via the GQ website.

Great, let's stick him in a fake TV studio with Chris Matthews and Bill Maher, bloviating at one other for the next two months. That's really all they want to do, they'll be happy as clams.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:28 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


You won’t see my hair turn white in the White House. I’ve been coloring it for years!"

Ugh. More cover-ups from the Clinton machine. Really wish they could be transparent about this, it's such an own-goal. I expect the polls to tighten.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [50 favorites]


chris24: And one additional advantage: You won’t see my hair turn white in the White House. I’ve been coloring it for years!"

That's not an additional advantage when the other candidate colours his hair and everything else.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


welllll she and everyone else did not know who the "other candidate" was
posted by zutalors! at 2:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm starting to feel a bit more at ease about the election as things stand right now. It's obvious that Trump has very few arrows in his quiver: Benghazi and the emails have played out, the health thing won't have legs unless there's another major episode. He's not really trying very hard to convince fence sitters or grab a new demographic, and there's a long way to go to keep the fires burning under his base enough to rally them to the polls.
HRC on the other hand still has a well oiled machine, solid economic news that helps Obama campaign for her, and many campaign's worth of experience in how to manage the weeks leading up to the final push.
Until recently I had some anxiety about how close the polls were, but, in truth, it will be easier to rally the vote come election day if the race seems close.
Neither side really has anyone left to convince in this contest, it's just a matter of not letting voter fatigue set in in order to get turnout. My money's on her to be better at doing just that.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:34 PM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


welllll she and everyone else did not know who the "other candidate" was

WERE WE EVER SO YOUNG?
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:36 PM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


He's not really trying very hard to convince fence sitters or grab a new demographic, and there's a long way to go to keep the fires burning under his base enough to rally them to the polls.

The underlying problem with demographics for Trump is still just not being addressed. Like getting 40% of the Hispanic vote - how would he do that?
posted by zutalors! at 2:36 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the polling averages (which are a lagging indicator) will show a tiny Trump lead by or shortly after the first debate. That's the polling average, not the individual polls...
posted by Justinian at 1:44 PM on September 13

Yeah, I think we'll be right around a dead heat before the debates...
posted by penduluum at 1:49 PM on September 13


I know that wagers are generally considered gauche on Metafilter, but if there's some way to register the strong odds I would give against this proposition, let this comment be said registration.
posted by one_bean at 2:41 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


If a small $10,000 bet is good enough for Mitt Romney it's good enough for Metafilter.
posted by Justinian at 2:44 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


That's not an additional advantage when the other candidate colours his hair and everything else.

He doesn't color it. The toupee always looks like that.
posted by holborne at 2:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


We don't bet, we wager.
posted by clavdivs at 2:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, but then he says something demonstrably false and/or disingenuous about Republicans/Trump's or Dem positions. I'm sorry but it feels like concern trolling to me.

It's fine to think that. From my perspective I see a whole lot of people who are unwilling to accept any hint of a criticism of their candidate (and my candidate! I'm voting Clinton! There's no contest!), and who are eager to misread everything I've typed in this thread. It's totally cool to just acknowledge I see things a bit differently than y'all. I promise. We can disagree. I'm not convinced Clinton is anything but a left-centrist neoliberal at heart, although she aims to do a lot of good things. And I think she's failed to really hit home some key issues about the economy, partly because of the limitations that come with being a left-centrist neoliberal with a history, and I expect this will come up prominently in the debates. I'll leave it at that.
posted by naju at 2:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


WashingtonKayfabe.com is an available domain in case any of you intelligent people want to start a political commentary blog.

(Because it's 2003.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:31 PM on September 13 [1 favorite +] [!]


beltwaykayfabe.com is also available, just sayin'
posted by palomar at 3:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


There's nothing wrong with disagreeing of course. But if your contention is that HRC has not addressed key economic issues with the same honesty or vigor as Trump, then you're doing more than expressing an opinion, you are eliding the facts. She has a plan, it is comprehensive, and moreover today's news about the economy is evidence that similar policies are working already. You're getting unreasonable pushback, but personally I have heard a lot of people as left as I am spending inordinate amounts of time going after her for being "a plutocrat" based on very little evidence outside of a. their imagination of what an HRC White House would do and b. Their disdain for Obamas policies as well (despite his inability to do much of anything since 2010).

There is no evidence that Hillary is a secret plutocrat as far as I can see. She's just not in favor of destroying capitalism.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]




Josh Marshall has an excellent piece about The Crisis at The Times And That Public Editor Piece and how it fits into a broader picture of "false balance/equivalency".
[...] Is anthropogenic climate change real? We've all seen news packages (though less over the last couple years) where one 'side' says yes, climate change is real and it's a big problem and another 'side' that says the evidence isn't in yet or its a hoax. We live in a heterogenous polity and shape our society around empirically based scientific investigations. Neither trucks in absolute truths. All truth is contingent and subject to new data. But we govern numerous aspects of our society around the consensus of scientific or expert opinion. By that reasoning, one of these things is true, valid and one is not. It is perhaps the most essential journalistic responsibility to distinguish one from the other. [...]

While there have been a number of extremely good and hard time investigative exposes on various parts of Trump's professional background, I think it's fair to say that the overwhelming amount of the damaging press he's gotten has been simply publishing or airing things he's said publicly or chronicling the back and forth between Trump and the Khans or Trump and Judge Curiel. This hardly counts in some notional balancing of scrutiny on a scale since it is little more than running a camera in front of Trump and letting people watch. There's little doubt that the scrutiny of The Clinton Foundation and Clinton's emails have had a repetitive, hyper-skeptical and saturation coverage that hasn't been close to matched by any investigative story about Donald Trump. It's not remotely close. [...]

A good, though rather parodic and extreme example of the kind of both-sides-ism we're talking about was the spate of headlines which said some version of "Trump, Clinton Trade Charges of Racism" a couple weeks ago. Well, one candidate has openly identified with avowed racists, made racially incendiary remarks and made racism the single most salient theme of his campaign. The other ... well, there's really nothing like that besides Trump saying 'No, you're racist.' This isn't a moral or ideological judgment. It is, as far as we can ever have it, a factual statement of what's actually happening. Those are precisely the judgments we rely on reporters to make. These are not scientific, purely objective judgments. But neither are they moral or ideological. They are factual, or factual well within the scope of the kinds of judgements we expect reporters to make.
It's a long but insightful piece. Our media need develop better skills and tools to cover bullshit artists masquerading as politicians.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 3:15 PM on September 13, 2016 [37 favorites]


The New York Times in 2016: We tell you how to think, You decide how to think it.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:18 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


MediaMatters: STUDY: Cable News Devotes 13 Times As Much Coverage To Clinton Health As Trump Foundation
The Washington Post published an investigative report by David Fahrenthold revealing that Trump had “retooled” the Donald J. Trump Foundation to transform it “from a standard-issue rich person’s philanthropy into a charity that allowed a rich man to be philanthropic for free.” The report detailed how Trump has stopped donating to his own foundation, instead filling its coffers with donations from business partners and others; that he uses the money as he pleases, including potentially illegal purchases for himself; that he lies to other charities and the public by suggesting that the foundation’s donations are his own money; and that the foundation has broken both the law and IRS rules.

On Monday, September 12, the two issues [including Clinton's health] drew immensely disproportionate coverage. CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC devoted 13 hours, 41 minutes, and 41 seconds of combined airtime between 6 a.m. and 11 p.m. to discussing Clinton’s pneumonia. The same networks devoted less than an hour of combined airtime to the Post’s revelations about the Donald J. Trump Foundation.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [46 favorites]


WaPo: Dr. Oz’s interview with Donald Trump is shaping up to be a total joke
Here is an exchange between Oz and Fox News Radio host Brian Kilmeade that aired Tuesday:

KILMEADE: What if there's some embarrassing things on there?

OZ: Well, I bet you he won't release them.

KILMEADE: Oh, it's still going to be his decision?

OZ: It's his decision. You know, I — the metaphor for me is it's the doctor's office, the studio. So I'm not going to ask him questions he doesn't want to have answered.

So, to review, Oz says Trump will publicize only the good parts of his medical report and that the interview will not include any questions Trump would not want to answer.
Lest you thought that Dr. Oz's show was not going to be a joke. I guess we are only going to hear about the good things: "Well Mr. Trump your liver functions are normal!"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Aaaaand the latest dispatch from Appalach, this time a town in western PA (pop. 4000, 95% white) where people working in ancillary industries to coal mining want to ensure their community survives for future generations, which means hanging on to coal. (Yeah, I know, climate change will have its own say on that.) Key grafs:
If nearly everyone moves away, who is going to take care of mom and dad as they age? Are they expected to pull up roots, too, and leave the people and places they have known their whole lives?

Many do leave, of course. Others stay—and watch the economy collapse around them. To many of these voters, Trump offers the hope that they won’t have to make such an awful choice.
(It includes a legitimate discussion about the impact of new voter registration on polling -- in this case, it's an officially-nonpartisan energy trade association doing the registration drive, not the GOP or Trump's campaign.)

I'd be happy to throw grant money at those communities to see if they can adapt their multi-generational skills and experience beyond coal. That's how Germany handles its Mittelstand. But they want to be a coal equipment town.
posted by holgate at 3:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's a long but insightful piece. Our media need develop better skills and tools to cover bullshit artists masquerading as politicians.

This makes it sound like media elites are credulous idiots, but really, they're elites. They went to elite schools. They got elite educations. They're not stupid. They do this on purpose. As far as I can tell, it's for money rather than ideology, but that doesn't do us much good.
posted by indubitable at 3:36 PM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


man though. you know what would be a great way to keep former coal-mining communities in Appalachia alive? And former logging communities in the Northwest? And former industrial towns in the Midwest?

Basic. Fucking. Income.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [47 favorites]


In HFA ground game news of a somewhat wtf variety, I just got notice that the opening party for a new local office (one of many, see far above) well be featuring... Richard Schiff. (I tried the West Wing for the first time recently and just could not even with the dewy-eyed sanctimony but any western PA WW fans, take note!)
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:40 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I can't really explain this, but my Trump sources don't especially seem to care about the Pneumonia (beyond an occasional wishing Clinton a recovery) and are fixated on the "Deplorable" thing still. Is anyone else seeing this? Maybe the fact that the press is carrying their water on the illness thing means they feel they can lay off it.

On the other hand, a disappointingly large number of my progressive friends on the Stein Train (or, bafflingly, Johnson train) have been sharing that New Yorker cartoon of Hillary in Weekend at Bernie's with great glee and openly hoping the pneumonia is worse than the campaign is reporting.

Is anyone else seeing this or is this just my little slice of awful?

This frickin' election, man.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:42 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


The Key Medical Question for Trump

As we await a review of Donald Trump's health status as mediated by TV Doctor Dr. Oz who says he doesn't want to reveal anything that will embarrass Trump or make him feel bad, we should focus in on what is I think the key part of his medical history. According to court documents, in 1989 Trump underwent what ended up being a tragically botched scalp reduction surgery to remove a bald spot. (No, I didn't know this was a thing either.) Ivana had recommended the plastic surgeon. And apparently it hadn't gone well and/or Trump was in a lot of pain. So he lashed out at Ivana, attacked her, held her down, began pulling hair out of her head to mimic his pain and forcibly penetrated her. Yes, this is really in court documents from Trump's divorce.
posted by PenDevil at 3:44 PM on September 13, 2016 [35 favorites]


HRC on the other hand still has a well oiled machine, solid economic news that helps Obama campaign for her, and many campaign's worth of experience in how to manage the weeks leading up to the final push.

To a sports loving friend I recently compared HRC to the even year SF Giants. "Awful in the summer, not great campaign, but gets hot in October when it matters." I'll be very surprised if her win-odds don't continuously trend up throughout the next 7 weeks.
posted by TwoWordReview at 3:45 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you're interested in declaring your support for Taco Trucks, The Shirt: $7 until midnight central time tonight, $10 thereafter ($3 more for American Apparel) and $10 for an apron.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]




Politico: New York attorney general opens 'inquiry' into Trump Foundation
Schneiderman -- who for months has tangled with Trump over a fraud lawsuit his office filed against Trump University, the Manhattan billionaire’s real estate seminar program -- told CNN’s “The Lead” that the GOP nominee’s charitable foundation is also under scrutiny.

“My interest in this issue really is in my capacity as regulator of non-profits in New York state. And we have been concerned that the Trump Foundation may have engaged in some impropriety from that point of view,” Schneiderman told host Jake Tapper. “And we’ve inquired into it and we’ve had correspondence with them. I didn’t make a big deal out of it or hold a press conference. We have been looking into the Trump Foundation to make sure it's complying with the laws governing charities in New York.”
My fondest hope is that Trump comes to rue the day that he ever ran for President.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [47 favorites]


man though. you know what would be a great way to keep former coal-mining communities in Appalachia alive? And former logging communities in the Northwest? And former industrial towns in the Midwest?

Basic. Fucking. Income.


Even that's not a solution. Read the article, and look at the ages. You'll very quickly notice something - none of the people in the piece are under 40, nor is there mention of influx. Their community is bleeding population, for a number of reasons.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:53 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


New York attorney general opens 'inquiry' into Trump Foundation

Is Schneiderman angling for a campaign 'donation'?
posted by aiglet at 3:57 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Ivanka wrote an op ed for the WSJ: The Trump Plan Will Help Working Mothers
The plan’s second part is the establishment of Dependent Care Savings Accounts, created to aid families in setting aside extra money to foster their children’s development and offset elder care for adult dependents.

These accounts will operate like Health Savings Accounts, with tax-deductible contributions and tax-free appreciation year to year. When established for a minor, funds from a Dependent Care Savings Account can be applied to traditional child care, after-school enrichment programs and school tuition.

To help lower-income parents, the government will match half of the first $1,000 deposited each year. Balances in a Dependent Care Savings Account will roll over from year to year so that a substantial amount of money can be accrued over time.
Riiight. For all those working moms who have an extra $1000 a year.

Sara Murray: Now back to maternity leave – some economists said Trump's proposal will be an easy excuse for companies to drop existing maternity benefits
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:59 PM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


For those unfamiliar with Dr. Oz:
Profiling Oz in The New Yorker, Michael Specter noted instances of Oz inviting controversial guests onto his show. One example is Jeffrey M. Smith, an activist against genetically modified food. "Oz identified Smith as a scientist", Specter wrote, "but Smith has no experience in genetics or agriculture, and has no scientific degree from any institution." Specter also criticized Oz because he "seems to have moved more firmly into the realm of tenuous treatments for serious conditions." Oz replied that he sees himself as a mediator and wants to provide many differing points of view, even if they are looked down upon by the conventional medical community.

Health claims made on the show have been criticized by the medical community as 54% of health recommendations were not supported by published studies. The Dr. Oz Show was also criticized in the same study for an overreliance on dietary suggestions and reluctance to provide evidence of its claims. The study warned that conflicts of interest were rarely addressed and that viewers should be skeptical of claims made on the show.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:59 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


My fondest hope is that Trump comes to rue the day that he ever ran for President.

I honestly don't know if he's capable of rueing a major decision. Is there any evidence that he has ever taken responsibility for any significant failure? If so, it would be news to me.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:00 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Personally, I wish I could live long enough to see the day when Silicon Valley suffers the same "dying industry" as Coal Country, but that's just me.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:03 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


wants to provide many differing points of view, even if they are looked down upon by the conventional medical community.

Oh god oh god it's happening. The anti-science left and right are about to merge into a hideous new vortex of stupid.

I have touched my tongue to the future and it tastes like homeopathic organic water.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:04 PM on September 13, 2016 [40 favorites]


Tripling down on this maternity thing seems like flailing. His core message isn't working and he knows it. I expect gingriches moon city to come into play soon.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:05 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Another money-making idea: red hats with printed on them "MAKE AMERICA DEPLORABLE"
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:06 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh great, now you've contaminated that healthy water with genes. UGH. you're worse than Monsatan..
posted by Cold Lurkey at 4:06 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


These accounts will operate like Health Savings Accounts, with tax-deductible contributions and tax-free appreciation year to year. When established for a minor, funds from a Dependent Care Savings Account can be applied to traditional child care, after-school enrichment programs and school tuition.

Um, doesn't this already exist? How is this different than this?
posted by TwoWordReview at 4:13 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


>> My fondest hope is that Trump comes to rue the day that he ever ran for President.

> I honestly don't know if he's capable of rueing a major decision. Is there any evidence that he has ever taken responsibility for any significant failure? If so, it would be news to me.


From Obama's speech in Philadelphia: [emphasis added]
To be president you have to do your homework and know what you're talking about and you've got to apply steady judgment even when things don't go your way. And you've got to make the tough calls even when they're not popular. Even when they take years to pay off.

You have to be able to handle criticism without taking it personally. Just brush it off. Done. And that's something I learned. And that's what Hillary learned as a Senator and Secretary of State and as a First Lady.
No drama. Damn he's good. There's a reason an anger translator was invented for him. He put up with the craziest crap from every direction and focused on being president instead of flipping his shit on twitter.
posted by morganw at 4:14 PM on September 13, 2016 [61 favorites]


Anytime somebody brings up "_____ savings accounts" as any kind of solution to anything I hear "WE HAVE NO FUCKEN IDEAS LOL"
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:15 PM on September 13, 2016 [49 favorites]


Trump presidency could cost U.S. economy $1 trillion: Oxford Economics

"Should Mr. Trump prove more successful in achieving adoption of his policies, the consequences could be far-reaching – knocking 5 percent off the level of U.S. GDP relative to baseline and undermining the anticipated recovery in global growth," it said."

Of course, this doesn't take into consideration the global economy/markets tanking when Trump talks about defaulting on the national debt. Just policies.
posted by chris24 at 4:19 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Who knew that what the world feared most was not nuclear war, but rather the movie Dave coming true.

Even worse:

"One day, for no particular reason, I just felt like runnin'."

Forrest Trump.
posted by New Frontier at 4:21 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


These accounts will operate like Health Savings Accounts, with tax-deductible contributions and tax-free appreciation year to year. When established for a minor, funds from a Dependent Care Savings Account can be applied to traditional child care, after-school enrichment programs and school tuition.

Um, doesn't this already exist? How is this different than this?


Well military courts also exist already but that didn't stop Trump from saying he'd establish them.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:21 PM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


Another good new Clinton video/ad, this time on "Pay to Play" regarding Trump and Bondi.
posted by chris24 at 4:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


And a Clinton video/ad on Trump/Pence and David Duke.

"Trump and Pence's courting of white supremacists isn't a game: It's normalizing racism. And it's deplorable."
posted by chris24 at 4:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Hey, if you go back in American History far enough, pretty much all Great Americans used to be white supremacists. ("Make America 18th Century Again")
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:34 PM on September 13, 2016


I'm making a video in which I invite America's Dad to busk with me, so of course I got my nails did.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


My fondest hope is that Trump comes to rue the day that he ever ran for President.

Honestly, it could give him cover: now any investigation into him, especially in heavily Democratic New York, will just be a partisan witch hunt. I mean, creditors and threats of arrest were one of Julius Caesar's motivations for scrambling up the Cursus Honorum and taking that governorship in Gaul.
posted by absalom at 4:43 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


There is a 55 foot animated Pro-Trump billboard in Times Square.

Reality has thrown a rod.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh look! Someone in the AP found a spine!

AP FACT CHECK: Trump says Clinton lacks policies. Seriously?

I guess Trump managed to replace the policy advisers that all quit because Trump didn't pay them and started shitting on Clinton for having policies.
posted by Talez at 4:54 PM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


SuperTrump? I see a certain '80s pop-rock group about to get REALLY upset...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:00 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


These accounts will operate like Health Savings Accounts, with tax-deductible contributions and tax-free appreciation year to year. When established for a minor, funds from a Dependent Care Savings Account can be applied to traditional child care, after-school enrichment programs and school tuition.

Um, doesn't this already exist? How is this different than this?


The difference is an FSA is a limited, use-it-or-lose it tool, and a HSA or DCSA is a boondoggle for rich people to build up wealth in yet another state-sponsored tax shelter.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:00 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


There is a 55 foot animated Pro-Trump billboard in Times Square.

Aside from the IP claims, that's a spectacularly stupid use of super PAC resources. They really think he can win New York.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:03 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


A Where Is Meredith McIver Parade:

YT Link
posted by Yowser at 5:05 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


a spectacularly stupid use of super PAC resources
Deplorable Donald must be profiting directly from it. Wasted Trump campaign money is always good news.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Aside from the IP claims, that's a spectacularly stupid use of super PAC resources. They really think he can win New York.

I presume they don't really care about it being seen by passersby. The billboard's erection is going to be reported nationally, and the takedown notice will attract even more publicity.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:14 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Donald Trump is really helping out Future President Hillary Clinton by establishing a thread of bipartisan support for paid family leave going into the election.
posted by zutalors! at 5:15 PM on September 13, 2016






Aside from the IP claims, that's a spectacularly stupid use of super PAC resources. They really think he can win New York.


New Yorkers do not look at the billboards in Times Square.
posted by zutalors! at 5:16 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


There is a 55 foot animated Pro-Trump billboard in Times Square.

Is the theory here that tourists from Middle America will see it in Times Square and be influenced before they return home? Because spending money on ads in NYC is a massive waste for Trump. I can think of much smarter ways to blow ~$100k a month.
posted by dis_integration at 5:16 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


New Yorkers do not look at the billboards in Times Square.
posted by zachlipton at 5:21 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Maybe it's for visiting Russians.
posted by Artw at 5:23 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


I can think of much smarter ways to blow ~$100k a month.

He could give it to a random dude to just go around yelling the word Trump non-stop for the next month and it would be more effective
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:24 PM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


Seriously I'll do it for ~$100k
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [20 favorites]


He could give it to a random dude to just go around yelling the word Trump non-stop for the next month and it would be more effective

Yeah but he already gets that for free.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:26 PM on September 13, 2016 [23 favorites]


The billboard's erection is going to be reported nationally, and the takedown notice will attract even more publicity.

I'm guessing they're renting time on a preexisting digital billboard.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:27 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Anytime somebody brings up "_____ savings accounts" as any kind of solution to anything I hear "WE HAVE NO FUCKEN IDEAS LOL"

You're using the wrong logic. It goes:

"Well, I have bank accounts/IRAs/MyRA-or-whatever-it-was-Obama-said-in-that-one-SOTU and I have plenty of savings.

Let's give poor people bank accounts and then they can have savings too!

It's really coming from a loving place.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:28 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


billboard's erection

WHY would you say this. Have you learned nothing.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


The billboard's erection is going to be reported nationally

this election has sunk to a new low
posted by indubitable at 5:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Basic. Fucking. Income.

It would require revising taxation of the wealthy and middle classes under a neoliberal, centrist, pro-business government, even in the best-case electoral outcome.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 5:37 PM on September 13, 2016


One of our local journalists on Twitter:
Donald Trump will be in Colorado Springs Saturday. Hide your fire marshals, lock up your elevators.
Instead of coming to our University of Colorado campus in the center of town, he'll be at some sort of airplane hangar/facility right next to the airport.

I'll have to miss it -- I'm volunteering for Hillary that day.
posted by mochapickle at 5:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


Yeah, but did they have a neon rotating jesus?
posted by clavdivs at 5:43 PM on September 13, 2016


69 year old woman punched in the face by Trump supporter

Mr. Trump, I have a few questions. First, will you pay for the legal defense of the guy who punched her, as per your pledge back in March? If yes, will be you paying for that out of your own pocket or do you plan to use funds from the Trump Foundation? If no, would you say your supporter did something deplorable?
posted by nubs at 5:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [45 favorites]


“I say this to the African-American community: It can’t get any worse... You can't walk down the street without getting shot."

Jesus dude, way to outreach.
posted by bongo_x at 5:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Oh, and I'm assuming the headline on this should be:

Trump Supporters Assault Medically Frail Woman; Clinton Doesn't Respond While on Bed Rest
posted by nubs at 5:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


nth-ing what was already said about Times Square. Advertisements there aren't aimed at New Yorkers - they'll be seen by countless tourists. So maybe not as bonehead a move as any other campaign expenditures in New York.

Also,

MetaFilter: It's really coming from a loving place.
posted by Surely This at 5:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


69 year old woman punched in the face by Trump supporter

Wow. It takes a really strong, manly man to beat up an old woman WEARING A FUCKING CANNULA AND DRAGGING AN OXYGEN TANK BEHIND HER.
posted by palomar at 5:50 PM on September 13, 2016 [33 favorites]


It's still a bonehead move. You put campaign ads in communities, not a tourist spot.
posted by zutalors! at 5:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


From nubs' link
After the interview, Teeter called News 13. She wanted to add one more thing, a question.

She asks if people find a Trump supporter punching her in the face deplorable.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [70 favorites]


Clinton should invite that woman on the campaign trail and give her a microphone and put some cameras on her.
posted by ian1977 at 5:57 PM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


There are arrest warrants out for the guy who punched the old lady, and for a different guy who hit three people inside the arena. During the inside skirmish, Trump made a comment like "Is there anywhere in America more fun to be than a Trump rally?", which...

Yeah, anyway. You've really got to hand it to the Trumpists, they're working overtime to really get as deep in that basket as possible.
posted by palomar at 5:57 PM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


There is a 55 foot animated Pro-Trump billboard in Times Square.

That is some pretty terrible design work. I guess "great America" will be so great we won't even need graphic designers anymore.
posted by p3t3 at 6:06 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


BREAKING: Trvmp coming to Flint, to visit water plant, Mayor nixts picts in favor of productivity.

Who wants a signed water bottle.
posted by clavdivs at 6:09 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


a fiver says he accidentally endorses lead; the next day, there is a media firestorm about teaching the controversy
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Apropos of absolutely nothing and for reasons I don't really want to go into, I was searching for pictures of people with ferrets on their heads earlier today.

I am pleased to report images of Trump were returned.
posted by hilaryjade at 6:13 PM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


There is a 55 foot animated Pro-Trump billboard in Times Square.

If it wasn't Trump, I would assume that was made by the opposition, or pranksters.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Is Schneiderman angling for a campaign 'donation'?

I've heard "Every man has their price." Obviously Trump isn't as wealthy as he claims since he can't afford what it would cost to buy off New York's AG...
posted by mikelieman at 6:19 PM on September 13, 2016


Rachel Maddow is reporting that Eichenwald's Newsweek article is going to drop around dawn and it's going to be a bombshell.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:19 PM on September 13, 2016 [16 favorites]


p3t3: That is some pretty terrible design work.

Has anyone here seen that "in the flesh"? Because OMG that's tacky, even for Times Square.
posted by Surely This at 6:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


And THAT is the #1 Reason Donny Trump won't release his taxes.

He couldn't take the humiliation of everyone knowing his net worth is less than Hillary Clinton's.
posted by mikelieman at 6:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Apropos of absolutely nothing and for reasons I don't really want to go into, I was searching for pictures of people with ferrets on their heads earlier today.

I am pleased to report images of Trump were returned.


Oh wow, you aren't kidding. A++ trolling!
posted by indubitable at 6:23 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Looking over this policy speech, Trump is really going for left-wing populism now.
posted by Talez at 6:23 PM on September 13, 2016


Rachel Maddow is reporting that Eichenwald's Newsweek article is going to drop around dawn and it's going to be a bombshell.

I really don't think a nervous breakdown should be held against him, but it probably will, at least by some. It's kind of depressing that this could have a much larger impact on his candidacy than all the other things he's said and done.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:23 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Is Eichenwald's article about financials or the supposed 1990 nervous breakdown?
posted by stolyarova at 6:24 PM on September 13, 2016


NoxAeternum: Reality has thrown a rod.

An old Turkish saying can be translated literally as "The world's nail fell off," which I've been using with depressing regularity because [2016]. But I like this modernized update quite a bit, too. It will go into rotation along with "We're on the wrong side of the looking glass."

2016: The year in which I had to accumulate phrases signifying that Everything Is Weird and Wrong so as not to repeat myself too often in writing or speech. So yeah.
posted by seyirci at 6:24 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


He tweeted that it's not about the 1990 breakdown/ hospitalization.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I gotta say, I don't get all the uproar. As an owner of multiple cats, I have two separate baskets of deplorables in my house.
posted by tocts at 6:25 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Ah, ok, well I guess we'll wait for further developments on this developing shituation.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:26 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


He tweeted that it's not about the 1990 breakdown/ hospitalization.

That's good because that is (or should be) a non-story.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:26 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I thought that would be a picture of cats in basket beds - baskets of adorables. Sad!
posted by stolyarova at 6:27 PM on September 13, 2016 [12 favorites]


PenDevil: Kurt Eichenwald (Vanity Fair, Newsweek): I believe Trump was institutionalized in a mental hospital for a nervous breakdown in 1990, which is why he won't release medical records.

I'm blanking the name of the VP candidate who had to withdraw from the race when it was disclosed that he had electroshock treatments for depression. I kind of hate to see this sort of thing happening now.

On the other hand, Trump: Fuck that guy.
posted by Surely This at 6:27 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


More worried about *current* mental state. Donnie is 72. And his family history has risk factors that are relevant to him being able to take the oath of office.
posted by mikelieman at 6:28 PM on September 13, 2016


Maddow just made a bunch of caveats and said she got a few fragments of the article, which when read were about financials, concerning ties to criminals and foreign politicians, which he would be unable to retain going into the White House.
posted by XMLicious at 6:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm blanking the name of the VP candidate who had to withdraw from the race when it was disclosed that he had electroshock treatments for depression.

Senator Thomas Eagleton. "When Democratic nominee George McGovern chose his vice president in 1972 he first asked Kennedy's father Ted to join the ticket. But Ted Kennedy declined. He then went with Sen. Thomas Eagleton. But when the news came out that Eagleton had been hospitalized three times for depression and used electroshock therapy twice as his treatment, McGovern pushed Eagleton out, choosing Kennedy's uncle Shriver instead. Eagleton's time on the ticket lasted just 18 days."
posted by cashman at 6:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


re: risk factors, somewhere in our endless discussions someone posted that early onset only affects a small number of people, and would have shown up much earlier. Trump is old enough to have plain-old-dementia (possibly), but genetics wouldn't necessarily factor into it.

I'm much more comfortable with calling him out on his actual horrific statements...
posted by Surely This at 6:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Has anyone here seen that "in the flesh"? Because OMG that's tacky, even for Times Square.

To be fair, they at least fixed his chest emblem for the final video version (I wish they left the tiny T) but then again, other elements introduced in the video are even worse.
posted by p3t3 at 6:31 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anytime somebody says they've got a bombshell to drop, I feel like more often than not it's a dud. I expect nothing to change with the release of the article.
posted by cashman at 6:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yes, Eagleton. Thanks, cashman.
posted by Surely This at 6:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's good because that is (or should be) a non-story.

I would hope anyone hospitalized for a nervous breakdown is not given nuclear codes, all other issues aside.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 6:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


hich when read were about financials, concerning ties to criminals and foreign politicians, which he would be unable to retain going into the White House.

Oh good, he'll just give up all his ties to criminals and foreign governments being elected. That should clear things up and set everyone's minds at ease.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


The local paper's report on Mrs Teter includes details that she protested against Vietnam in SF and for Civil Rights in Minnesota. She's a resident in one of the various former hotels now converted into senior living apartments, and I don't think she'll need to pay for her own breakfast any time soon.
posted by holgate at 6:33 PM on September 13, 2016 [17 favorites]


I don't think there is any scandal too large to turn off Trump's media supporters or incident too small to blow up into something to chip away Hillary's support. If it turns out Trump has extensive mob and foreign financial dealings, the story tomorrow will be "Clinton under-tips waitress, hates America."
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:33 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Eichenwald made his bones in financial reporting.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:34 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


I would hope anyone hospitalized for a nervous breakdown is not given nuclear codes, all other issues aside.

Why? What, specifically, about being treated for severe depression or anxiety do you think disqualifies someone from the presidency?
posted by palomar at 6:36 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


Donnie is 72.

Proof of that Wikipedia lies!
I wonder if he has a Mastodon tie with matching shiny rock cuff links.
posted by clavdivs at 6:36 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Revelations about Trump's nervous breakdown shouldn't affect anything, but I suspect it'll just strengthen his appeal to his Deplorable Base. And "ties to criminals and foreign politicians" will just increase his appeal to fans of The Sopranos and The Americans.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:36 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anytime somebody says they've got a bombshell to drop, I feel like more often than not it's a dud. I expect nothing to change with the release of the article.

Yeah, I think we all still remember when Evan McMullin (if I have his name right) was going to shake up the race like a bombshell by jumping in. Kind of a squib.
posted by puddledork at 6:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


If it turns out Trump has extensive mob and foreign financial dealings...
Welcome to 2016, where hyperbole doesn't work anymore.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Why? What about being treated for severe depression or anxiety do you think disqualifies someone from the..."

Richard M. Nixon.
posted by clavdivs at 6:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Considering there's already strong evidence of Russian state involvement in his campaign, I literally cannot imagine a scandal that could come out that would actually hurt his standing with Republicans accounting for 40% of the electorate.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Maddow just made a bunch of caveats and said she got a few fragments of the article, which when read were about financials, concerning ties to criminals and foreign politicians, which he would be unable to retain going into the White House.

So his mob ties would go into a blind trust?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:38 PM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


oh please oh please let's not have an eruption of ageism callouts or mental health shaming shaming.

There are so many ways to shame Trump for his actual words and deeds.
posted by Surely This at 6:39 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Fun on a bun!
posted by ian1977 at 6:39 PM on September 13, 2016


Was Nixon hospitalized for a major depressive episode? I'm having a hard time finding information about that, and I know it's cute and fun to get winky-winky about this shit, but seriously, we can do better than trashing the mentally ill in order to score cheap political points in a damn internet forum.
posted by palomar at 6:43 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Was Nixon hospitalized for a major depressive episode?

Thomas Eagleton. McGovern's first choice for VP against Nixon.
posted by Talez at 6:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Just "financial ties to foreign politicians" would be a weird charge to make when the Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Gulf dictatorships
posted by indubitable at 6:47 PM on September 13, 2016


Yeah I'm gonna speak up here that I am happy to trash Trump for his many shitty actions, but not for any mental illness he may have been treated for. C'mon ya'll.
posted by emjaybee at 6:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah, I'm trying to think of a scandal that I believe would actually hurt Trump, and I'm kind of drawing a blank. I can't think of any financial thing that I think would make any difference.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


So he lashed out at Ivana, attacked her, held her down, began pulling hair out of her head to mimic his pain and forcibly penetrated her.

Let's be clear then - the divorce papers claim he raped Ivana. But his special counsel said it was okay because, while it didn't happen, if it had happened it wouldn't have been rape, because you can't rape your spouse.
posted by Squeak Attack at 6:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


Yeah, I'm trying to think of a scandal that I believe would actually hurt Trump, and I'm kind of drawing a blank. I can't think of any financial thing that I think would make any difference.

Trump on tape saying "I've got complete sway over all these idiots! You just tell them what they want to hear and that everything wrong is the Mexicans fault!"
posted by Talez at 6:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


He could give it to a random dude to just go around yelling the word Trump non-stop

Now I'm imagining that scene from Game of Thrones with Trump, paraded naked through the streets, while this dude yells "Trump" non-stop...aaaaand now I'm reaching for the bottle of bourbon to erase that image from my mind.
posted by lord_wolf at 6:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


This is a hard thing. My own experiences with severe depression and anxiety do feel like legitimately disqualifying traits… but Mark Dayton has been a capable governor, and I guess Abraham Lincoln did okay—under some pretty trying circumstances!—so I might have to allow that mood disorders alone cannot account for my own clear unfitness for governance.
posted by nicepersonality at 6:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


Yeah, I'm trying to think of a scandal that I believe would actually hurt Trump, and I'm kind of drawing a blank. I can't think of any financial thing that I think would make any difference.

Trump listens respectfully to an underling's complaints and reaffirms his commitment to creating non-hostile work environments.
posted by box at 6:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Scientific American: The Candidates answer 20 top questions about science, engineering, technology, health and environmental issues

Clinton, Trump & Stein, that is - Johnson did not respond. Trump's answer to the climate change question is, well...not an answer.
posted by zakur at 6:54 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


That is some pretty terrible design work. I guess "great America" will be so great we won't even need graphic designers anymore

"Make Breakfast in America Great Again"?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:54 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


What, specifically, about being treated for severe depression or anxiety do you think disqualifies someone from the presidency?

The hazard of giving one person the power to vaporize millions at the press of a button, when they may not be in a state of mind capable of making that decision in the rational defense of the state, is real and serious. Physical and mental medical conditions can and should invalidate people's qualifications for high stress jobs where there is responsibility for many lives, and that shouldn't be a discussion dismissed lightly.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 6:55 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Was Nixon hospitalized for a major depressive episode?

Thomas Eagleton. McGovern's first choice for VP against Nixon.


Yes. That was covered upthread. clavdivs responded to my first comment asking what specifically it is about having received treatment for severe depression or anxiety with "Richard Nixon". Not really an answer, not really contributing anything to the discussion... and we're better than this, or at least I like to pretend so I don't hit the eject button on my account here.
posted by palomar at 6:56 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


So, by your rationale, a lungful of dragon, anyone with a family history of any kind of mental illness whatsoever should be disqualified from holding the office of president. After all, can't be too careful! So, can we also extend this to banning anyone with a family history of certain types of cancer? How about traits of alcoholism?
posted by palomar at 6:58 PM on September 13, 2016


> It's still a bonehead move.

Don't forget, Trump's playing three-dimensional Candyland here. It's all part of The Plan.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:59 PM on September 13, 2016 [13 favorites]


The hazard of giving one person the power to vaporize millions at the press of a button, when they may not be in a state of mind capable of making that decision in the rational defense of the state, is real and serious. Physical and mental medical conditions can and should invalidate people's qualifications for high stress jobs where there is responsibility for many lives, and that shouldn't be a discussion dismissed lightly.


Hooooly shit can we not
posted by teponaztli at 6:59 PM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


If Eichenwald has well-sourced and very specific figures -- say, that Trump's mortgaged his properties to a bunch of oligarchs for liquidity, and that's what's keeping his businesses afloat (aside from billing campaign expenses to them) -- then I could see it having an impact.

There's also the possibility that TrumpOrg entities have been identified in the Panama Papers, and if there are a stack of offshore companies that Trump uses one way or another, then you start a conversation about tax havens and tax avoidance that doesn't fit well with the talk of punitive excise duty or prohibiting remittances to Mexico.

(Of course TrumpOrg is going to have holding companies within holding companies under all kinds of jurisdictions with all kinds of opaque relationships and tax treatments.)

On the other stuff -- for all of the shit that's flung at Clinton for being "cold" and private, Trump has never been asked during this campaign about his divorces, even as he sought to court the bullshittier evangelists as a good Christian. That's partly because of Bill Clinton, but I'm sure there's also a lot of NDA shit wrapped around Trump's previous marriages.
posted by holgate at 7:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Having been hospitalized for a stress induced nervous breakdown, (we shall have to wait and see what the details are), should seem to me to be disqualification for what is probably the most stressful job in the world.
posted by Windopaene at 7:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Basket of deplorables
posted by pxe2000 at 7:02 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


So we're doing this, then? Gross.
posted by palomar at 7:02 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Hooooly shit can we not

Yes. We can not. It's not like the "button" is just sitting on the Oval Office desk. There's shit in place to prevent one person from nuking the world. Believe it or not, lungful, they've thought of that.
posted by Sys Rq at 7:03 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


In 2006 an article was published by psychiatrists at the Duke University Medical Center which reviewed the biographies of American presidents from 1776 to 1974. This study, which was published in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease analyzed the historical data of 37 presidents looking for symptoms of mental illness as defined by the criteria of the DSM-IV, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual. What they found was startling. According to the Duke researchers, 49% of former presidents had experienced some form of mental illness. Depression was the most common type of presidential mental illness (24%) which some experts say is a high percentage compared with the national average.

Among the presidents identified:

• John Adams
• Thomas Jefferson
• James Madison
• John Quincy Adams
• Franklin Pierce
• Abraham Lincoln
• Calvin Coolidge

In addition to these leaders there have been other presidents who have been depicted by scholars and historians as likely to have suffered from a mood disorder including: Rutherford B Hayes (depression), Theodore Roosevelt (bipolar), Woodrow Wilson (depression), Herbert Hoover (depression), Dwight Eisenhower (depression), and Lyndon Johnson (bipolar).
posted by mochapickle at 7:03 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump playing tax shelter games would have no effect in my opinion. To his supporters that just means he's good at playing the game. And also taxes are zzzzz so who cares?
posted by ian1977 at 7:04 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


> Scientific American: The Candidates answer 20 top questions about science, engineering, technology, health and environmental issues

"Donald Trump (R): Science is science and facts are facts. My administration will ensure that there will be total transparency and accountability without political bias. The American people deserve this and I will make sure this is the culture of my administration." [REAL]
posted by gingerbeer at 7:04 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd prefer anyone actively suffering from distorted thinking to not be in charge of nukes. I'd also prefer anyone suffering from Ebola not to be in charge of nukes.

Once they have been treated and are no longer suffering, we're good to go.

Recovery and successful treatment are harder to definitively establish for mental disorders than for transient infection, but it is possible.

And lack of recurrent problem since 1990 would ordinarily be good evidence. Trump's thought processes appear to be, um, ... limited, to me, but not actually diseased or disordered.
posted by Dashy at 7:04 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I have trouble facing the idea of pants each morning and prefer to spend much of my waking life lying in bed staring into space, but I think I could manage not to nuke Russia.
posted by bibliowench at 7:08 PM on September 13, 2016 [22 favorites]


You guys. People with mental health issues have held the office of President before, while we had nuke capabilities. This is some really ugly, hateful, next-level Chicken Little action.
posted by palomar at 7:08 PM on September 13, 2016 [18 favorites]


I have a presidential mental illness. I feel so fancy.
posted by XMLicious at 7:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


I do think that physical health and mental health are valid topics. I also think to some degree physical and mental ailments are ok if they are understood and managed. But to say it's irrelevant is pretty unprecedented.
posted by zutalors! at 7:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Hey, clavdivs? If you've got a link that answers the question I asked, provide it. Googling Nixon and depression only tells me that he saw a therapist. We tell people to see therapists every goddamn day in this place, pretending that that's some sort of disqualifier is... well, I already said it above.
posted by palomar at 7:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


There's shit in place to prevent one person from nuking the world.

Very little actually. Being elected president is pretty much 99.9% of it.
posted by peeedro at 7:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [32 favorites]


When I google it, I see stories about how he suffered from depression, and took lots of unprescribed Dilantin...
posted by Windopaene at 7:12 PM on September 13, 2016


I think the missing link is that the choice of Eagleton contributed to how we ended up electing Nixon. Kind of like Nader: W.
posted by Dashy at 7:14 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is raging cockface asswipe in the DSM? If so I bet the treatment plan includes 'never give patient nuclear codes. Never feed after midnight. And never ever get him wet'.
posted by ian1977 at 7:15 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mod note: Let's let the Nixon thing go, at least, if we can't yield the faintly absurd doomsaying about mental illness in general. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:16 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hey, remember when we had that MeTa about ableism?
posted by teponaztli at 7:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [18 favorites]


p3t3: "To be fair, they at least fixed his chest emblem for the final video version (I wish they left the tiny T) but then again, other elements introduced in the video are even worse."

Holy cow. This is somehow of worse quality than 2001-era Flash animations because unlike, say, Neil Cicerega's old animutations, it doesn't seem to be actively trying to be crappy. Is this what happens when your graphic designer's primary experience is drawing rare pepes?
posted by mhum at 7:22 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Playing the health speculation game against Trump, as many people have continually done, suggesting he's of unsound mind, has early-onset dementia, etc., is pretty squicky. It's kind of like how some people are suggesting that a certain other candidate has Parkinson's, isn't it?
posted by dis_integration at 7:24 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't want to play a game, but I feel like the Trump campaign played a game with that wackydoctor's letter and this shady Dr. Oz thing. No I do not think that is the same as the Parkinson's speculation.

I just think real records should be released not from a silly doctor who doesn't seem to remember what he wrote?
posted by zutalors! at 7:27 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe we could just stick with the 176 reasons instead of making up medical conditions or medical history?
posted by zachlipton at 7:28 PM on September 13, 2016 [14 favorites]


Who cares about his history? Given his current behavior I doubt Trump could get a security clearance right now any other way than becoming POTUS: Psychological Conditions and Security Clearances.

Read some of these disqualifying bullet points and tell me you don't think of him. Compulsive lying, gross exaggeration, self-indulgence, vindictiveness...

I'm cool with playing armchair psychiatrist, since the voters are the only ones with the power to declare someone mentally fit or unfit for office. It's not squicky. I'd like to live to see 50.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:30 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


49% of former presidents had experienced some form of mental illness.
So he could claim that his mental illness makes him MORE Presidential than Hillary... another reason to NOT GO THERE.

I'm one of the many MeFites who have been treated for depression, including a 3-day psychiatric hold that stretched to 8 days, and I met a few people in the Psychiatric Ward that I would support for President instead of Deplorable Donald. Seriously.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:38 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Playing the health speculation game against Trump, as many people have continually done, suggesting he's of unsound mind, has early-onset dementia, etc., is pretty squicky. It's kind of like how some people are suggesting that a certain other candidate has Parkinson's, isn't it?

Reminds me of that scene in Das Boot:
Our masters spend all their time finding Churchill new nicknames.

What's the latest?

Drunken pig.
Fat boy.
Paralytic.

For a drunken paralytic, he's putting up a damn good fight.
posted by indubitable at 7:39 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


It's been shown to my satisfaction that the idea that Trump voters are Trump voters based on economic anxiety is overplayed. What they are really basing it on is racial anxiety.
posted by Justinian at 1:53 PM on September 13


In the tender tone of John McLaughlin, WRONG!

While I agree that there is a large number of deplorables forming Trump's base, there are also many of his supporters who have other reasons than racial anxiety.

I spoke about my mother at length in the last thread, but her position is essentially that Clinton is the devil we know, while Trump is a roll of the dice. She brings up stuff about Clinton from the '90's, like how she slandered many of the women accusing Bill of sexual misconduct. Her general attitude towards Clinton is that she will say or do anything to get elected. There is absolutely zero benefit of the doubt given, and I have found my mom extremely stubborn in this regard. She is economically very well off, but she absolutely feels anxiety about the economy and blames a lot of it on Obama.

Trump, on the other hand, is a successful businessman. My mom reveres this kind of person. She worked most of her career at a major chemical consumer products company but I think in hindsight she wishes she had started her own business. She used to watch The Apprentice (me too, on occasion) and was probably impressed by his style. She likes that Trump isn't a politician and thinks that will allow him to actually get something done.

Her attitude is fed by her media diet, which consists of a ton of cable news, mostly FOX.

I understand the tendency in these threads to focus on the crazy Trump fans. I mean, just look at their behavior. How can you not? But for those of us connected to people, like my mom, who are more on-the-fence, I think that the parts of the conversation focusing on them and the sorts of arguments and material they might find convincing are the most helpful.

PS. I am currently teaching her what a dog whistle is.
posted by cman at 7:42 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm cool with playing armchair psychiatrist

Sure, but many of us are not, including some people who experience mental health issues directly. As one of those people I would like to point out that I am deeply uncomfortable with anyone playing armchair psychiatrist, and I'd like it to stop.
posted by teponaztli at 7:42 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I am not okay with treating mental health hospitalization (especially years in the past) as a disqualifying tactic. But the thing is, I'm pretty sure no one who agrees with me about this is disqualifying Trump for mental health reasons - they've already disqualified him for being a genuinely crooked, lying, racist incompetent. And Hillary has already made it plain where she stands on mental health treatment - that we need more of it, that it should be treated like any other health issue and funded and not stigmatized.

But if a mental breakdown hospitalization is what it takes for any of the troglodytic Trump supporters to finally reassess him and stay home from the polls, I'm 100% fine with it. Especially since I'd bet money that if it does come out and becomes an issue, Hillary will outright say that it shouldn't be an issue, that that's why the mental health issue is so prominent in her platform, and that she's glad he was able to get the treatment he needed - as all Americans who need it should.

Because like all facts HRC has already stated about Trump, it will be automatically derided or ignored by the xenophobes -- who will then be left cuddling their prejudice, and having no one to vote for. Which is still way better than voting for Trump.
posted by Mchelly at 7:45 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


While I agree that there is a large number of deplorables forming Trump's base, there are also many of his supporters who have other reasons than racial anxiety.

This was quoted upthread, but it bears repeating: "I'm sure there are some people who come to a cross-burning because they just really like making s'mores. But once you get there and you see the burning cross and you don't leave? At that point you have chosen to be at a cross-burning." Jay Smooth.
posted by sallybrown at 7:46 PM on September 13, 2016 [51 favorites]


Trump, on the other hand, is a successful businessman. My mom reveres this kind of person.

So your mother doesn't care that he's an open white supremacist?

This is a serious question. How does she justify her support for such an obvious racist? Not to mention the misogyny...
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:46 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's been shown to my satisfaction that the idea that Trump voters are Trump voters based on economic anxiety is overplayed. What they are really basing it on is racial anxiety.
posted by Justinian at 1:53 PM on September 13

In the tender tone of John McLaughlin, WRONG!


Your one anecdotal counterexample does not make the assertion WRONG.

Also people affected by racial anxiety are not necessarily "crazy," they are just racist.
posted by zutalors! at 7:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump, on the other hand, is a successful businessman. My mom reveres this kind of person.

I would advocate running through various articles about his "businesses" (aka con operations) over the years and showing her that he is not only not a successful businessman, but also criminally fraudulent and willing to stiff small family businesses to the point of driving them out of business. Trump is no Romney. He's a showman, not a businessman.
posted by sallybrown at 7:49 PM on September 13, 2016 [20 favorites]


It seems like we're going to have a moment wherein Trump goes so far, even his basest basketiest base cannot comment. That he will commit a comment or action which will be so wrong on so many levels it is followed only by dumbfounded silence from all.

For several minutes on each person's hearong of it, we will all be transported to a loving, extra-dimensional place where words are only blockers, and we know what everyone's thinking.

The race will be over, Trump will have lost, and yet the event will overshadow the race. This moment, When the Trump train goes supercritical, and the next moment everything's anew, that's when its over. It could be any day now . .
posted by petebest at 7:50 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


I move that we stop being assholes to folks in this thread with irresponsible speculation on mental health fueled by simplistic assumptions of what constitutes fitness for office.

And although I know it will cut no ice with people who believe the paper-thin myth of Trump's success like the poster's mom upthread, he is not a successful businessman, he's a successful con artist with wealthy connections that keep him afloat.
posted by emjaybee at 7:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


She is economically very well off, but she absolutely feels anxiety about the economy and blames a lot of it on Obama.

This seems like pretty much the kind of racially-tinged fear of loss of privilege that a lot of people have been talking about. As you said, she's very well off so the anxiety about the economy doesn't seem like it would be real fear of destitution. Clearly it's your mother and I don't know her at all, so I'm not trying to say she's racist, but maybe the economic anxiety has broader reasoning.
posted by chris24 at 7:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


She used to watch The Apprentice and was probably impressed by his style
I never saw anything in his Apprentice performance that didn't contain elements of several of my WORST bosses. And that's a carefully edited version of Trump by Mark Burnett who was already an expert at creating Artificial Reality TV. But then, I consider enjoying "Reality TV" to be a symptom of America's epidemic of mental illness.
And yes, during my short stay in a Psychiatric Ward, Reality TV shows - Apprentice hadn't started yet - were usually the first choice on the TV in the common lounge area. Just sayin'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:52 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


So ... We don't have to speculate about mental illness or not. His attested and undeniable behaviors and words disqualify him. Whether a mental illness contributes to his behavior or not is irrelevant. He wouldn't somehow become qualified for president if his bad behavior were "explained" by a mental illness so I don't see why a mental illness would disqualify in itself. The point is his words and actions are awful. That's enough.
posted by R343L at 7:54 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


> Yeah, I think we all still remember when Evan McMullin (if I have his name right) was going to shake up the race like a bombshell by jumping in. Kind of a squib.

His name is Edward Cullen. and he is beautiful. sheesh people get things right.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:00 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


As someone with a diagnosed mental illness, I recognize the sensitivity of the topic, but it's not true that there are safeguards against rogue nuclear launch attempts so I think it's a topic worth facing, as did Harold Hering when he asked: "How can I know that an order I receive to launch my missiles came from a sane president?" There's no easy answer here although I definitely don't condone speculation as to specific illnesses or anything like that.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump is pretty clearly a narcissist and a sociopath. Or at least he acts like one. These are personality disorders, not quite the same as something like dementia. His behavior is a choice, and a terrible one, and we should talk about his choices rather than his mental health.
posted by mmoncur at 8:03 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


It's not that a person can never, ever talk about mental health and fitness for office. But this is only coming up now because Trump was apparently institutionalized more than 25 years ago, and also I guess he's being treated for depression and anxiety? Like, there's plenty of reasons to say you don't trust Trump with nukes, but hearing about mental health treatments and going "gee, maybe he's not up for the job, can we trust him?" Please forgive my hypersensitivity here, but that doesn't exactly come across too great.
posted by teponaztli at 8:07 PM on September 13, 2016


BuzzFeed: Colin Powell Calls Trump A “National Disgrace” In Personal Emails
Former Secretary of State Colin Powell, a retired four-star general who served under three Republican presidents, slammed GOP nominee Donald Trump as a “a national disgrace” and an “international pariah,” according to his personal emails seen by BuzzFeed News.

The remarks came in a June 17, 2016, email to Emily Miller, a journalist who was once Powell’s aide. In that same email Powell also said Trump “is in the process of destroying himself, no need for Dems to attack him. [Speaker of the House] Paul Ryan is calibrating his position again.”

The website DCLeaks.com — which has reported, but not confirmed, ties to Russian intelligence services — obtained Powell’s emails.

...

[in a separate email] “Yup, the whole birther movement was racist,” Powell wrote.
posted by XMLicious at 8:08 PM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


Maybe we can approach the mental health issue with both nuance and compassion? I think the mental health of the candidates for leader of the free world is a relevant issue, but I don't think it should be discussed in terms of a label meant to invoke stigma associated with a disorder. It should be discussed in terms of type, degree, manageability, and relevance to the job's requirements. I don't think a conversation of this tenor could happen in the general public, at present, but perhaps it could happen here?

That being said, I don't think there's any reason to have that conversation, because there's no evidence that either candidate has been diagnosed with a mental illness (and wild speculation is deplorable). And, even if they had, I can imagine few scenarios in which that diagnosis would bring additional substance to the discussion. The rigors of the campaign provide us with plenty of evidence pertaining to the candidates' mental fitness for office; knowledge of any formal diagnosis would carry with it stigma alone. Imagine, for example, we discovered that Trump had previously been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. Would that information really provide us with anything new of substance to criticize, or simply a label to demonize?
posted by Somn at 8:09 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


we should talk about his choices rather than his mental health.

Well, he also has a family history of early onset alterzimer's, and his, let's call it, non-standard, speaking pattern is full of warnings signs, even leaving aside the gaping holes in his logical reasoning as the result of blatant dishonesty. Even without playing psychiatrist from the couch, his mental health is an issue of national security which justifies a full release of his medical records at a minimum, if not an independent review by a team of medical professionals. Neither of which we're going to get before the election.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'll just repeat my post from 6 weeks ago:

I know two people who have worked with Trump on two separate things* and both said he hears voices (their characterization.) Kept complaining about people talking when no one was speaking. On one occasion, my friend went to the door and called out - to nobody - for quiet. That seemed to work and he stopped complaining for the short time remaining.

Obviously hearsay since I wasn't there either time, but they are good friends who I trust and both were concerned by it given his candidacy.

* Sorry for the sockpuppet and minimal details. Given the small industry involved, I don't want to out them or me.
posted by mynewsockpuppet at 8:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [25 favorites]


The problem with the mental health discussion is that as far as I know it's based on a deleted tweet. People are in here spouting pure conjecture that is truly ugly in light of the ableism MeTa we just had.
posted by palomar at 8:11 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


Maybe we can approach the mental health issue with a modicum of nuance?

I agree, and I'm really in the middle on this one, in that I don't want to use any labels but I am also not comfortable with the level of health detail he's released, and I don't know why anyone would be or just not care because it's "squicky." It's just not a bright line to me that this is an irrelevant topic.
posted by zutalors! at 8:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


From waaaaaaaay upthread, some podcast recommendations for soren_lorensen (and others):

Beautiful Stories From Anonymous People (my very favorite non-political podcast at the moment)
Hidden Brain (yes, it's NPR, but the good kind)
Pop Culture Happy Hour (also the good kind of NPR, with MeFi's own Linda Holmes)
Back Story (my favorite history podcast)

In other news, my HRC buttons arrived today. They're the discreet kind: "She uses big words," "She does her homework," "She believes in science," which is more my style and okay honestly they let me pretend I'm as cool as Hillary fine whatever don't harsh my enjoyment people.
posted by Superplin at 8:12 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, the bits of the Eichenwald story that Maddow's staff got hold of imply that TrumpOrg has ongoing beneficial contractual arrangements "with deep ties to global financiers, foreign politicians and even criminals" that couldn't be straightforwardly severed, and that as a result "almost every" foreign policy or trade decision would raise conflicts of interest. No illegality from TrumpOrg. It appears to have original reporting from interviews with Trump business partner.

Devil's in the details, really.
posted by holgate at 8:13 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump is pretty clearly a narcissist and a sociopath. Or at least he acts like one. These are personality disorders, not quite the same as something like dementia.

I kinda hate to jump into this ongoing, personally uncomfortable, side conversation that keeps veering into armchair diagnosis of someone, but let's be clear here: not the same thing at all. Non-reversable dementias, Alzheimer's being the most common, are organic conditions that results in brain cells dying, progressively. One doctor I've worked with describes it as major organ failure, where the organ that is failing is the brain. There may be symptoms and problems that look an awful lot like mental health problems, but there's a fundamentally different underlying cause. Personality disorders and mental health issues are separate matters with different treatment/management strategies.

They get to share the stigma, though. Whee.

Well, he also has a family history of early onset alterzimer'

Cite? My understanding is his father was diagnosed in his eighties. Early Onset is used to describe people under the age of 65. Someone developing Alzheimer's in their eighties is not at all unusual, sadly, and does not point to the familial form of Alzheimer's Disease, which makes up about 5% of all cases.
posted by nubs at 8:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Soooo, is the rest of the media going to bestir themselves to care about these Trump financial bombshells, or is it going to be "wow, sketchy, kinda. ANYWAY, Hillary is at death's door and WHAT IF we keep digging into the Clinton Foundation, surely we'll find SOMETHING corrupt!!!!"
posted by yasaman at 8:20 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


His name is Edward Cullen. and he is beautiful. sheesh people get things right.

wait till you see HIS medical records
posted by sallybrown at 8:21 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


It is a major flaw in our society's handling of mental health that being a narcicist and sociopath is never enough to disqualify you from anything, let alone grounds for commitment to a hospital. Not just Trump, but so many people who have caused so much of the harm in America today would be taken off the streets and out of the corporate offices. Now THAT would Make America Greater.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:23 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


If people had brought up mental health in another way, I might not be feeling as personally offended and alienated from the conversation as I am now. But no, it was "he's being treated for depression and anxiety, so he clearly can't handle being president" and "it's good to [baselessly speculate] because maybe some of his supporters will be put off [by the sigma of mental health]."

Listen to me or not, call me dramatic or hypersensitive or not, but this isn't going in a direction that makes me feel remotely comfortable.
posted by teponaztli at 8:23 PM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


I think a better way to frame the discussion might be "Could he qualify for a security clearance on his own?" The link I posted early is fairly even-handed describing the vetting process, which makes it clear that mental health and clearance suitability are distinct things. If he sought treatment on his own in the past, that would count as points in his favor, so long as it wasn't associated with violence. Also anything beyond seven years would likely be off-limits, and many strictly-personal matters are excluded.

This is probably what HRC refers to as "temperament", and I think it is a good term, as in "he doesn't have the temperament to get a clearance to work in the USPS mailroom."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


"This is a serious question. How does she parse her support for such an obvious racist?"

Good question, I would posit the same as democrats who rejected anti-lynching laws, lie, then obfusicate, then make it go away so as to get the southern white vote.

It's called sacrificing moral certitude for short term political gain at the expense of progress and civil rights. Thank god enough of these racist democrats hummed a different tune when thier cities were going to be set on fire. Or, just have your husband pardon homegrown terrorists. (Though I can understand Clinton pardoning his brother)
posted by clavdivs at 8:31 PM on September 13, 2016


This was quoted upthread, but it bears repeating: "I'm sure there are some people who come to a cross-burning because they just really like making s'mores. But once you get there and you see the burning cross and you don't leave? At that point you have chosen to be at a cross-burning." Jay Smooth.

I don't watch everything she watches, so I don't know whether or not she's seen the figurative cross burning. But my impression is that she doesn't see it or that, when she does, she doesn't really see it in the same way you do. She is barely familiar with the history of racism in this country and so anything requiring even shallow understanding of that tends to go over her head. She did not attend American high school and watches a lot of FOX news.

So your mother doesn't care that he's an open white supremacist?

She doesn't believe he is one. I don't believe he is "open" about it either. If anything, he is a coded white supremacist.

I would advocate running through various articles about his "businesses" (aka con operations) over the years and showing her that he is not only not a successful businessman, but also criminally fraudulent and willing to stiff small family businesses to the point of driving them out of business. Trump is no Romney. He's a showman, not a businessman.

I have been doing this. These have been revelatory to her. Right now I'm trying to teach her about the alt-right but soon I'll bring up his foundation.

This seems like pretty much the kind of racially-tinged fear of loss of privilege that a lot of people have been talking about. As you said, she's very well off so the anxiety about the economy doesn't seem like it would be real fear of destitution. Clearly it's your mother and I don't know her at all, so I'm not trying to say she's racist, but maybe the economic anxiety has broader reasoning.

Unless she's hiding her true feelings deep down, I really don't think her economic anxiety is racially tinged. I think it has more to do with hearing, daily, for 7 years, how shitty the president is doing and how terrible the country is becoming.


Everyone here (MetaFilter) is extremely good with technology and those of us in the election thread are way better than average when it comes to actively seeking out quality journalism. I think it can be hard for us to empathize with people who are quite the opposite. People who aren't well-connected online and who take their news in passively. And while those news organizations may have racially tinged motives for producing the content that they put out, those are not always clear to their viewers. In fact, they actively and effectively hide any such motives.

It's not really accurate or helpful to label all the Trump people as racially motivated.
posted by cman at 8:35 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm not sure anyone is saying 'people with depression are automatically ineligible for the presidency for forever', I read this discussion more as, 'Trump specifically has observable characteristics of both an undiagnosed and untreated personality disorder, as well as possible cognitive decline, which could each be preclusive to upholding the office of president and about which we have no reliable information'. If someone meant the former, that's deplorable. The later is actually really fucking relevant to everyone alive on Earth.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:36 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]



It's not really accurate or helpful to label all the Trump people as racially motivated.


They are signing themselves up for a racist campaign. It doesn't matter if it's helpful but it's certainly accurate.
posted by zutalors! at 8:41 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's not really accurate or helpful to label all the Trump people as racially motivated.

The Jay Smooth clip acknowledges that they're not all racially motivated -- some of them, in his analogy, are s'mores motivated. The point is that it's not what motivates you to show up, but what doesn't motivate you to leave.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 PM on September 13, 2016 [34 favorites]


Pence's role as ambassador plenipotentiary for the campaign seems not to have gone well at the Capitol today, or at least, not well with the GOP House caucus's kids: "Daddy, Donald Trump hates women.”
posted by holgate at 8:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


Good question, I would posit the same as democrats who rejected anti-lynching laws, lie, then obfusicate, then make it go away so as to get the southern white vote.

It's not 1930-whatever? What even is this argument?
posted by asteria at 8:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [10 favorites]


Claudius posts nonsense y'all. He's a good guy but don't expect clarity anytime soon.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:51 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


But Pence was willing to go out on a limb and call David Duke “that bad man,” so maybe there's hope yet?
posted by zachlipton at 8:53 PM on September 13, 2016


can we talk about this Powell leak please? There's an exchange between him and Condi where they're like "Fuckin Rumsfeld lost that stupid war" "yup" "yup" "sigh" "right back atcha" and I wish I was friends with them.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:54 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Trump, on the other hand, is a successful businessman.

Allegedly.
posted by zakur at 8:56 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'd like to sidestep the question of whether past mental illness should render a candidate unfit to serve as president, because I don't think it's relevant to the discussion.

What I do think is relevant is that Trump himself opened the door to disqualifying candidates based on past health issues that might have lingering impact. So I don't relish the thought of giving him a pass on it just because his health issues could be behavioral rather than medical.

He didn't have to go there with regard to Clinton's health status, but he did, and he took the whole country with him. He's been demanding transparency from her for weeks while shrouding his own health status in a web of lies and fruitless promises. If he's hiding something, I hope it comes out and gets splashed all over WashPo (since they'd be the only paper to cover it, naturally). Sorry, but my sad experience across many presidential election years is that when Dems completely cede the low road to the Republicans, Dems usually lose.

So if there's anything newsworthy there, I personally have to advocate treating it with the same level of compassion, constraint, and respect for personal privacy that Trump and his surrogates have shown Clinton and her medical history.

Luckily, Clinton herself probably has more sense, compassion and class than I do, so we'll never see it happen. What is more likely: both campaigns will stop talking so much about health now, because who cares? I for one would offer up my own brains to keep even a proven Zombie!Clinton shambling along till the last votes are cast, rather than let Trump win. I'm sure his supporters feel the same.
posted by kythuen at 8:59 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


have been doing this. These have been revelatory to her. Right now I'm trying to teach her about the alt-right but soon I'll bring up his foundation.

Skip the alt-right stuff (it's too inside-baseball for a lot of people) and focus on his financial shenanigans. He regularly stiffs his contractors: he signs contracts, makes deals, and then breaks them. When they try to get paid he overwhelms them with lawyers instead of playing fair. No American bank will float him loans -- he's mostly supported by Deutschbank (sp?), which is known to be doing some seriously shady stuff with Russian oligarchs right now. His father bailed him out when one of his casinos was going belly-up by buying $3m in chips.

Then there's the stuff about his charities, where it has become clear he doesn't, in fact, give money to charity. Well, he gives other people's money to charity. And spends their money on gifts for himself, like the Tebow helmet and a 6-foot tall portrait of himself.

And he still hasn't released his taxes: what's he afraid of?

Even if these things were legal (which not all of them are), they are seriously unethical.

If you ignore all the awful policy positions and the racism, xenophobia, misogyny, etc., you're still left with a guy who is good at marketing his own name and strong-arming people with less money than him, with a lot of dodgy international financing ties that he refuses to reveal. How is that a good model for a President?
posted by suelac at 9:00 PM on September 13, 2016 [19 favorites]


From that NYT article
A. "Mr. Pence wound up raising the subject only when pressed by a reporter"
10$ says they were from Buzzfeed

B. It talks about secret Gop plans to disavow trump if the polls hadn't tightened. Which is interesting because now, if they widen radically it's too late. They are tied to the trump train now through their wussy halfassed support. Hmmmmm *starts rubbing my tiny hands together*
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:01 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here's the Newsweek cover. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:06 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Claudius posts nonsense y'all. He's a good guy but don't expect clarity anytime soon.

FWIW, I've always pictured clavdivs as a sort of plucky Universal Turing Machine, with some great algorithms, trying really really hard to seamlessly blend in with the MetaFilter meatbag crowd but always leaving just a little room for improvement...
posted by rodeoclown at 9:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


Bet Trump frames that cover, puts it on his wall, no matter what it says about him.
posted by dis_integration at 9:08 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


(I say that with love)
posted by rodeoclown at 9:08 PM on September 13, 2016 [3 favorites]


but what doesn't motivate you to leave

I understand you. But what I'm saying is that one man's dog whistle is another woman's inexplicable picture of a frog. That's why they're called "dog whistles". In these threads we have thoroughly picked through every bit of evidence that Trump is a bigot. But not every voter has the same information. Someone whose main news source is FOX is likely to be completely unaware of the evidence of Trump's bigotry, or to downplay it as a Liberal ploy.

I'm dealing with someone who (rightfully) has a strong distrust in the media but (unfortunately) has chosen mostly right-wing news sources due to her own conservatism. Just the other week I had to explain to moms why all the voter disenfranchisement going on can't possibly be related to voter fraud. She has heard here and there some noise about how some people complain about disenfranchisement. But by far she has heard more about voter fraud and how the Liberals are using the race card to protect it.

And by the way, she isn't a big fan of Trump. She reluctantly leans slightly in his direction. The other half of this equation is her disdain for Clinton, which has nothing to do with race.

She isn't motivated by race. She's motivated by conservatism and the conservative media. I absolutely believe there are others out there like her. Grouping these people in with the actual deplorables does not win them over, and that's really unfortunate, because I think these are the people who can possibly be won over.
posted by cman at 9:09 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


Looking forward to this Newsweek story dominating headlines for about 15 minutes before the NYT discovers Hillary may have snapped herself as a bee once while on the toilet in the Pentagon
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:09 PM on September 13, 2016 [9 favorites]


That's why they're called "dog whistles".

A vast majority of the evidence of Trump's bigotry comes from Trump himself, in his own words, with very little ambiguity. I get your point that she's so steeped in conservative media that she can't see the racism, but it's still there. Going back to the s'mores analogy, she sees the burning cross and believes the gentlemen in the hoods when they say they're just trying to keep warm for the night. It doesn't make her a racist, just a racist enabler.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:14 PM on September 13, 2016 [7 favorites]


I love when I get the Hillary Campaign emails that say:

...and to hit that goal, we need 14 donations from Maibara today. Will you make one of them?

I know of about 3 or 4 other Americans maximum in this town. If Hillary can find 14, I'll be impressed enough to donate double whatever she's asking!
posted by p3t3 at 9:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [8 favorites]


just saw this on another site. looks to be accurate and up to date.

People of Color Harassed by Trump and His Supporters (Google Map)
posted by lampshade at 9:18 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Looking forward to this Newsweek story dominating headlines for about 15 minutes before the NYT discovers Hillary may have snapped herself as a bee once while on the toilet in the Pentagon

Oh hey hi New York Times. What's that? More DNC email leaks but no real details yet? Well done! Except ...
The documents released Tuesday were not immediately as damaging as the first trove, and they proved difficult to access. WikiLeaks, the anti-secrecy platform, posted multiple messages on Twitter explaining how to download the documents after users struggled to do so. Initial reports suggested that they were old records related to the committee’s donor outreach program.
posted by maudlin at 9:29 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Perhaps a better starting point than "racist enabler" might be "affinity fraud".
posted by holgate at 9:32 PM on September 13, 2016


>Trump, on the other hand, is a successful businessman.

Allegedly.


Trump is one of two people in recorded history to go bankrupt running a casino.
posted by rifflesby at 9:32 PM on September 13, 2016 [26 favorites]


before the NYT discovers Hillary may have snapped herself as a bee once while on the toilet in the Pentagon

...what?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:33 PM on September 13, 2016 [28 favorites]


I'm down in Newport Beach right now, staying with some friends. Usually I live in Pasadena, in a deeply Democratic neighborhood, with several Hillary lawn signs out on major roads. But Orange County is very different.

Yesterday I met an kindly, elderly white couple concerned about a running car in the parking lot. When they went to their white SUV, I noticed a very prominent Trump/Pence bumper sticker. I then began to reassess their kindliness.

Today, I went to Balboa Island, a ultra-wealthy and exclusive island enclave stuffed with historic beach cottages and shiny Cape Cod style McMansions. I saw several Trump signs attached to garden fences, and-- most disturbing of all-- four large Trump/Pence flags attached to two private docks (close to a sculptor's private garden where she was advertising her sculpture, with the help of a life-size sculpture of Reagan). It was fascinating, especially given that the streets were nearly deserted on account of the rain, and the only people going about their business were various Hispanic handymen.

None of these people I saw who were advertising their love of Trump could be described as poor or desperate in any way. I wondered what motivated them. Fear? Stupidity? Racism?

It was truly a glimpse into an alternate dimension of blinkered whiteness and a profound lack of empathy.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 9:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [24 favorites]


...before the NYT discovers Hillary may have snapped herself as a bee once while on the toilet in the Pentagon

...what?


ie, take a picture of herself using Snapchat and used the 'bee filter' function (I assume).
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:37 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


I wondered what motivated them. Fear? Stupidity? Racism?

Yes.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:39 PM on September 13, 2016 [11 favorites]


None of these people I saw who were advertising their love of Trump could be described as poor or desperate in any way. I wondered what motivated them. Fear? Stupidity? Racism?

Tax cuts.

There are two baskets of deplorables. Half are racists. The other half care about tax cuts. They are joined in an unholy alliance.
posted by JackFlash at 9:43 PM on September 13, 2016 [15 favorites]


Eichenwald already put up a piece last week about Trump's tax returns that perhaps hints at what the larger story will cover:
He has a labyrinthine collection of partnerships, private corporations, holding companies and other investments. America does not know if he is a joint investor with unsavory characters (he has been before) or what financial incentives drive him.
posted by holgate at 9:48 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


via Boingboing. Deleted tweet suggests Newsweek may be ready to break news of Trump breakdown and hospitalization in the 1990s.

On the one hand ugh the continued stigmatism of mental health issues, on the other hand fuck Trump.
posted by humanfont at 9:54 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


Eichenwald already put up a piece last week about Trump's tax returns

You know, I gotta say I'm amazed that there have been NO LEAKS of Trump's returns. I find it hard to believe that Trump's cybersecurity is so good that nobody could get into his systems if they tried -- and why wouldn't they have tried?

Unless none of his files are electronic? Which also seems unlikely.

Trump himself apparently never uses email, but that can't be true of his entire organization, business or political. And it seems so unlikely that they would all have better computer hygeine than Sarah Palin did...

Not that I'm saying someone should hack him, but with all the attention on this issue, I'm kind of surprised it hasn't happened.
posted by suelac at 9:55 PM on September 13, 2016 [6 favorites]


Recipe for Trump "jump the shark" moment.

Elton John's "I'm still standing" video/song at a campaign rally. Wait for it; sooner or later. Just wait for it.

Hillarious.
posted by buzzman at 9:56 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


You know, I gotta say I'm amazed that there have been NO LEAKS of Trump's returns. I find it hard to believe that Trump's cybersecurity is so good that nobody could get into his systems if they tried -- and why wouldn't they have tried?

I've been thinking a lot about the IRS agents who see stuff like Trump's returns. No guarantee, but given how high profile he's been, somebody at IRS has probably seen at least one year of Trump's returns in the past decade or two. And that person is just walking around doing their daily routine. A bookkeeper. Mild-mannered. They have information that millions of Americans are dying to know, and somehow they've controlled the urge to spill. There's an incredibly decent, albeit likely morally conflicted, human somewhere in America. I wish DFW could have finished The Pale King.
posted by one_bean at 10:03 PM on September 13, 2016 [21 favorites]


Not that I'm saying someone should hack him, but with all the attention on this issue, I'm kind of surprised it hasn't happened.

There must be countries that 1) aren't Russia and 2) don't want to die in nuclear fire and/or winter.
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:05 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Deleted tweet suggests Newsweek may be ready to break news of Trump breakdown and hospitalization in the 1990s.

TBH the thing I'm finding most surprising here is that Newsweek is both still around and doing quality investigative reporting. I thought they went bankrupt quite a while ago.
posted by anastasiav at 10:06 PM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm behind and I think I have the flu, but

Trump's reply was more or less on target: "Our country does not feel 'great already' to the millions of wonderful people living in poverty, violence and despair."

I think this discussion highlights the fact that there is a real gap between how the economy is doing according to actual numbers and how it feels like it's doing. I mean, people's incomes are up. That's a fact. Sure, not everyone is improving, but overall.

But I understand why people are scared. The Great Recession was REALLY SCARY. It was scary to a lot of white people who lost their jobs and suddenly realized how close to the bottom they were. How very little savings they have, how powerless they really are if they lose their job and can't find another one. We (and yes, my family is one of them that is only this month getting back on track (barring the next dire thing)) realized how little safety net there really is available to us.

Even myself, who was a social worker for people living in poverty for my entire adult career, I KNEW what the situation on the ground for poor people was like, but knowing it and FEELING it are two very different things. Knowing you have no money coming in and bills due and the food is running out is a kind of fear that is visceral and induces a total panic. I remember this kind of just blank refusal to understand that there wasn't anything I could do, and no actual public assistance to help me short of letting my car get repossessed and have my home auctioned off for taxes, etc. And, you know, it didn't come to that, because my husband was able to go start waiting tables and washing dishes and we got some grocery money from family.

But it's a fear that stays with you. And you retain that sense of despair lingering on the other side of the next paycheck, the next business closure, the next illness. I understand that fear, and I understand how that can cause anger and the desire to lash out. Humans are built with a very strong survival instinct and it's not a coincidence that a fear of not having income, not having a job causes people to react with anger. We want to fight, rational or not, and if someone puts an enemy in front of us that we can maybe claw financial security back from, a lot of us will fight for it.

Minorities, immigrants, a lot of people in the country have known that fear their whole lives. They are used to the insecurity and they know exactly what the safety net will and will not provide and they mostly just get on with the business of scraping by however they can. Those people were not terrified by the Recession because it didn't show them anything new. Us, the white folks who somehow didn't realize it could be us struggling to manage food stamp paperwork, we're the ones who felt a ghost walking over our grave.

I mean, I think liberals have a great answer to this fear. We want to offer safety nets. To everyone. Because it can happen to anyone. We know that no government can guarantee that a private industry doesn't move a plant from your town, or that you don't get sick, or that your boss doesn't fire you unfairly. So when you hit your low point, if you need it for a little while, let's have the government help you not lose EVERYTHING. Let's keep you off the street and keep your kids fed. Let's make sure you can see a doctor. I think that's a lot better and safer way to address the fear than some nebulous "kick out immigrants and magically you get a job" plan. Or "cut taxes for the rich and beg them not to move offshore" plan. Any plan that relies on the kindness and morality of corporations to provide for citizens is a really dangerous high-stakes bet.
posted by threeturtles at 10:07 PM on September 13, 2016 [70 favorites]


humanfont, Eichenwald says that he deleted that tweet because people thought the "mental breakdown" musing was meant to be a hint about his Newsweek story -- he says it wasn't: Folks: I don't have story coming out tomorrow that Trump had a breakdown. Order of tweets confused ppl I believe. Topic is other major thing
posted by maudlin at 10:10 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


suelac: "Trump himself apparently never uses email, but that can't be true of his entire organization, business or political."

Well, his doctor is still running Windows XP. Maybe his accountant is on Windows 3.1?
posted by mhum at 10:17 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


Today, I went to Balboa Island, a ultra-wealthy and exclusive island enclave stuffed with historic beach cottages and shiny Cape Cod style McMansions... None of these people I saw who were advertising their love of Trump could be described as poor or desperate in any way. I wondered what motivated them. Fear? Stupidity? Racism?

I went to Balboa Island too a few years ago! It was a very pleasant, very wealthy place. I slept on someone's floor and I drank Black Velvet until I was squinty-eyed and played Wesley Willis songs on a shitty pair of portable speakers. Sorry this does not answer your question,
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:19 PM on September 13, 2016 [20 favorites]


I saw several Trump signs attached to garden fences, and-- most disturbing of all-- four large Trump/Pence flags attached to two private docks

I live and work in OC and the amount of Trump signs you are seeing is, by far, the least any republican candidate or cause has gotten in my lifetime. It makes me proud.

OC has a reputation for being super conservative, but that is less true every year.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:42 PM on September 13, 2016 [5 favorites]


None of these people I saw who were advertising their love of Trump could be described as poor or desperate in any way. I wondered what motivated them. Fear? Stupidity? Racism?

Orange County has always been a racist place. Anaheim was a Klan town in the 20s, Huntington Beach still has some Neo-Nazis lingering around, and there's always been both anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim sentiment. There was a popular bumper sticker during Vietnamese refugee arrival in 1981 that basically said,“Will the last American to leave Garden Grove bring the flag?”.

I thought maybe this was behind us, but this election just kinda brought it out of people and I'm starting to see and hear a little bit of it around me regularly.
posted by FJT at 10:47 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


Beautifully said, threeturtles. We all need to find a way to communicate this to our friends and family as eloquently and compassionately as you did.
posted by naju at 11:23 PM on September 13, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's not that a person can never, ever talk about mental health and fitness for office. But this is only coming up now because Trump was apparently institutionalized more than 25 years ago

Actually, I and many others have discussed how Trump exhibits classic warning signs of Alzheimer's. His family history, and his age.

And I think if Donald Trump is suffering from current issues that diminish his cognitive abilities, that's important.

But prior irrelevant things? Some might suggest that's bait to distract from the valid concerns.
posted by mikelieman at 12:25 AM on September 14, 2016


>I've been thinking a lot about the IRS agents who see stuff like Trump's returns. No guarantee, but given how high profile he's been, somebody at IRS has probably seen at least one year of Trump's returns in the past decade or two.

Many years of Government Specialty Banking here. ( That's Banker Talk for processing tax returns for them, scanning/indexing/processing remittances. The Treasury doesn't process your returns directly )

I can't speak for other people, but we were professionals, and treated our responsibilities seriously. Scary, huh?
posted by mikelieman at 12:29 AM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'm a bit numb to the requests for empathy for the Trump crowd

Me too, kinda. Like I'm sure cman's mom is a perfectly nice person. But I'm really focusing my empathy on the people who Trump and his supporters will harm and might actually get killed. Rather than pretty well off old white folks who have their jimmies rustled because they watch too much Fox News. Why is it always on us to hold their hands and tell them shhh it'll be okay and please maybe do a little reading about how TRUMP IS A FUCKING RACIST NEOFASCIST DEMAGOGUE but I hope I don't hurt your feelings.

Trump's supporters are either racists or useful idiots for racists and if that hurts their feelings well I'm kind of preoccupied worrying about the Muslims getting beat up because of his Islamophobia and the gay people who Pence believes are subhumans and the billions of people who could die in a nuclear fireball.

I have also seen no evidence that such people are reachable.
posted by Justinian at 12:48 AM on September 14, 2016 [44 favorites]


FWIW I think the people who are reachable are the disaffected folks who are telling pollsters they are voting for Johnson and to a much lesser extent Stein. The number of Trump supporters who can be convinced to change their votes is miniscule compared to the number of possibly persuadable third party voters. We should be trying to get those folks to come home to Clinton.

That isn't to say one shouldn't work on convincing relatives or whatever. For personal reasons. But it isn't an effective GOTV tactic since the amount of effort required is all out of proportion to the available votes.
posted by Justinian at 12:54 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Well, rather than family and friends, I originally wrote "Clinton needs to find a way to communicate this as eloquently and compassionately" but I've taken enough of a whipping in this thread lol
posted by naju at 1:00 AM on September 14, 2016


Ok, fine on the mental illness thing. Based on my previous experience working with clients with severe mental illness I look on it the same way I look at people with mental illness owning guns. I think it's a bad idea for anyone with a serious mental illness to own a gun. I think it ups the likelihood that someone is going to do something regrettable in a moment of temporary bad judgement and mood disorder. (Which, to be clear, is usually commit suicide.)

BUT I don't think people who have mental illness should be banned from owning guns. Because I don't think it's right to take away a right that others have based on a medical condition. If someone has a HISTORY of violence or whatever, fine, but not simply due to diagnosis.

So I think it's a good idea that there be some transparency in the public record that the public can evaluate prior to voting for someone for president. I, for example, wouldn't feel comfortable knowing someone had been diagnosed with dementia and having them occupy pretty much any elected office. But depression? Who fucking cares? One in 4 Americans has some form of mental illness at some time in their lives and most manage all kinds of responsibilities perfectly fine. Even severe mental illness (like schizophrenia) can be treated to the point where it hardly interferes in someone's life and employment.

I think that generally, candidates for high office have a record of service that demonstrates their ability to function and therefore medical records aren't really necessary as far as mental health is concerned. With the exception of dementia it's rare for a serious mental illness to suddenly appear later in life. If someone can serve as Secretary of State they can definitely handle the Presidency, and same for many other government positions.

The problem with Trump is he has NO FUCKING EXPERIENCE and no public record and has never done anything without a bunch of toadies around him making it easy for him. We have no idea what he would do given the stress and responsibility and power of an office like this. That's FUCKING NUTS.
posted by threeturtles at 1:03 AM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


threeturtles: I don't think it's right to take away a right that others have based on a medical condition.

Personally I'm fine with that. If you have a medical condition that gives you double vision, you are banned from driving a car; that makes total sense to me, you don't need to cause a couple of accidents first. But if you have had double vision in the past, and it's under control now, then you're OK to drive again. And to me, it seems that's how it should be.

A president who's actively dealing with depression? I can see how that could be problematic, if only for the fact that it's likely to be extra super hard.
A president who's had depression or a nervous breakdown in the past? I would assume that they are aware of the symptoms and would have access to professional help. Should be fine. And should definitely not disqualify anyone.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:28 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


It is almost impossible to be overcautious about existential threats.

We're talking about the President of the United States. They can launch a nuclear strike with essentially no checks and balances. If our Presidents, on 1% of days, have a 0.1% chance of trying to launch a world-ending nuclear strike with a 90% chance of someone successfully stopping them, we fail within 2,000 years more times than not.

What's the connection to Trump? It's not about his mental health.

It's the fact that anyone arguing for nuclear proliferation, as Trump repeatedly has, should be immediately disqualified. Every country that he wants to allow nuclear access (Japan, South Korea, Saudi Arabia) massively increases the odds that someone's weapons mistakenly unleash a doomsday scenario. We're locked in a permanent Mexican Standoff where any one person flinching destroys the world, and Trump says it's A-OK to hand out more revolvers and cowboy hats.

It doesn't matter if Trump is sane or not, because even his sane statements gravely endanger the future of the human race.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:30 AM on September 14, 2016 [37 favorites]


Did a new DNC leak come out overnight? Bunch of random intercept types and J*** St**n are tweeting about it but no actual stories yet. Or is there no story?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:38 AM on September 14, 2016


Eichenwald's article is up.
posted by snofoam at 4:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [25 favorites]


Well, he's not mincing words right from the start.

"If Donald Trump is elected president, will he and his family permanently sever all connections to the Trump Organization, a sprawling business empire that has spread a secretive financial web across the world? Or will Trump instead choose to be the most conflicted president in American history, one whose business interests will constantly jeopardize the security of the United States?"
posted by chris24 at 4:08 AM on September 14, 2016 [19 favorites]


ie, take a picture of herself using Snapchat and used the 'bee filter' function (I assume).

Ah, cool. I thought it was maybe some kind of slang.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:31 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


It will be
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


And concludes without mincing words:

"Never before has an American candidate for president had so many financial ties with American allies and enemies, and never before has a business posed such a threat to the United States. If Donald Trump wins this election and his company is not immediately shut down or forever severed from the Trump family, the foreign policy of the United States of America could well be for sale."
posted by chris24 at 4:39 AM on September 14, 2016 [15 favorites]


Did a new DNC leak come out overnight?

Yes. Dunno the deets yet. Apparently it's not emails but internal documents and spreadsheets showing stuff like how donors got ambassadorships and how the DNC uses big data. Doesn't actually sound that damning. You can find links to it on the WikiLeaks twitter.
posted by dis_integration at 4:43 AM on September 14, 2016


I think that Newsweek article is damning, and should raise serious doubts among his supporters. I say it should, but I doubt it will. I wonder how the media will cover it. Probably just bring up the Clinton Foundation again. "See, both sides do it!"
posted by Biblio at 4:48 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]




. You can find links to it on the WikiLeaks twitter.

Barf. Hopefully a journalist will take a crack at it. Something tells it the NYT might win that race to declare it incriminating. 🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:53 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think the article makes clear the result, if not intent, of a Trump presidency would be to enrich him at the cost of the country. I don't think it'll affect how anyone prone to vote him thinks, but hopefully will impact the middle, assuming it gets traction which I'm concerned about since there's no clear single smoking gun gotcha that the press can't ignore. Though the Turkey stuff is frightening.
posted by chris24 at 5:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's a good article, but feels like the start not the finish. It's a sort of gaunlet to other investigative journos. Too bad Assange and Greenwald have identified the true enemy in Clinton...
posted by OmieWise at 5:06 AM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]


On the morning news they said one of the highlights of Trumps plan for children, besides a light butter braise, was to make child care expenses tax-deductible. Isn't that already the case?
posted by drezdn at 5:12 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Damn, that article is some impressive reporting.
posted by mothershock at 5:12 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


make child care expenses tax-deductible. Isn't that already the case?

The first $5k is, if you have a flexible spending account through your employer. Or you can take the smaller childcare tax credit instead.

We talked about it in a previous thread.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:19 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


The current child care tax credit is $3000 for one child, $6000 for two.

Honestly anything short of subsidized universal child care is a band-aid on a decapitation wound. Any monkeying around with tax credits or tax deductions does nothing to alleviate the monthly or weekly pain of writing that check.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:42 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Any monkeying around with tax credits or tax deductions does nothing to alleviate the monthly or weekly pain of writing that check.

Not sure I agree with that, I mean it does help a little bit, right? When Trump loses, if Congress could still pass something like this (funded by tax increases) it would help a number of families. Not that Trump's plan is anything at all other than a confusing empty promise, but let's not toss out a possible band aid just because it's covered in swastikas. Maybe that metaphor is too intense, I don't know it has been a long week.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:48 AM on September 14, 2016


Maybe now that Trump has come up a childcare plan, people will somehow start paying attention to the one that Clinton released in Spring 2015?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:55 AM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


It helps a very little bit once a year for people who already make enough to pay taxes in the first place.

Is it better than nothing? Sure. Will any such scheme ever be helping to lift someone out of the poverty in a meaningful way? Nope.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:55 AM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


Its a great day for America folks! Let's look at the numbers....

@NateSilver538 3m3 minutes ago

Trump has a 1 in 3 chance of winning the election. It's highly competitive, folks. http://53eig.ht/29RiRva


*tears up cue cards*
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:58 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


One weird thing about the Times Square animation is that the I guess floating flag in the sky starts to blur and and change shape after Trump roars past it.

It's like *and we'll have a new flag too yeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh deconstruct America yeeeeeeaaaaahhhhh*
posted by angrycat at 5:59 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not perfect, but it includes universal pre-K for 4-year-olds, which eliminates one year worth of child care costs (or allows a stay-at-home parent to return to the workforce one year earlier), some vague talk about federal child care subsidies (yay!) and increased tax credits (meh), a commitment to raise the salaries of child care workers (desperately needed), and increasing money for Head Start.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:01 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Who had money on "The Dr Oz interview wouldn't actually be discussing his health or releasing any medical records?" 'Cause you just won:
@JenniferJJacobs: Trump will tape his interview with Dr. Oz at an ABC Studio in NYC today at 10 am. but it won't be on his medical reports or recent physical.

Trump senior aide says medical information will be released shortly.
When exactly? "Soon."
posted by zombieflanders at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


Also Nate Silver can get bent. I'm enough of a bedwetter all on my own without his help.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


> Good news, whoever had "mid-September" in the pool for when the National Review would surrender to #OkayTrump.

I called it in February, although I didn't set a date.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:12 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]




Oh that's going to be massive, I mean That Guy had eclipsed them all but there's still enough corruption in the Republican machinery to go around—

Oh wait. "Republican?" Any chance for it to go no further than the Guardian?

(And Nate, Mr Silver, fine, mission accomplished, you've done what you set out to do: I'm trying to learn the methodology of the PEC and I haven't set foot in 538 for two weeks, you can quit with that any time now.

...oh, that wasn't what you were trying to do?)
posted by seyirci at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


@NateSilver538 3m3 minutes ago

Trump has a 1 in 3 chance of winning the election. It's highly competitive, folks. http://53eig.ht/29RiRva


I make myself 270towin maps to feel better when I see this. Like this one, which is highly likely, where it doesn't even matter who wins Ohio or Florida so long as Clinton gets ME, WI and PA, which are pretty strong Dem lean states. After that Florida or Ohio are just icing. I want a landslide, but I'll settle for 272/3.
posted by dis_integration at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


From the latest 538 chat:

harry (Harry Enten, senior political writer): The funniest part of all of this to me is that Clinton was basically saying what everybody in the press corps has been saying. That’s what makes the media reaction so surprising to me.

YOU DON'T SAY THOSE THINGS OUT LOUD, YOU FUCKS - SAYING THEM TO EACH OTHER DOESN'T COUNT.
posted by Artw at 6:26 AM on September 14, 2016 [31 favorites]


The John Doe files reveal that the billionaire owner of NL Industries, one of America's leading producers of lead used in paint until the ban, secretly donated $750,000 to Wisconsin Club for Growth at a time when Walker and his fellow Republican senators were fighting their recall elections.

...

As researchers pore over the Guardian's leaked John Doe files, seeking light amid the darkness of today's political process, they may ponder the lead paint mystery. There is no evidence that Wisconsin Republicans led by Scott Walker attempted to change the law as a favor in return for Simmons' $750,000 donation that had helped some of them win their own elections and stay in office. No charges have ever been brought.


No evidence at all! Simmons just liked the cut of that Walker fellow's jib.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:26 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is my favorite part of that campaign finance article:

"The John Doe files do contain some evidence that Walker's senior team attempted to maintain a firewall between candidate and outside interests after that date. On 19 April, the lead adviser to the governor's recall campaign, Keith Gilkes, replied to a group of businesses wanting to put up billboards supporting Walker's candidacy: “I cannot have any comment on this – it is an independent expenditure separate from the campaign."

"OH HELLO ARE YOU WRITING ME AN EMAIL ABOUT A SUPERPAC'S ACTIVITIES I DONT EVEN KNOW YOU OFFICER"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:31 AM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


When exactly? "Soon."

The Trump campaign's media strategy is literally "how do you keep an idiot in suspense?"
posted by holgate at 6:33 AM on September 14, 2016 [37 favorites]


When exactly? "Soon."

The IRS is auditing those too.
posted by dis_integration at 6:38 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


No evidence at all! Simmons just liked the cut of that Walker fellow's jib.

Maybe Walker should have provided the fig leaf of a public speaking engagement to assuage concerns about taking money from some really horrible people.
posted by indubitable at 6:44 AM on September 14, 2016


Really interesting article in the NYT about the Russian Orthodox Church and it's role as a tool of Russian soft power abroad. It's an interesting link in the Republicans-to-Putin chain; it explores how Russia, bolstered by the church, has been consciously positioning itself as the world's last great bastion of conservative sentiment (which is to say, anti-gay marriage, feminism, and general modernity). Russia is trying to pitch a big tent to rally global conservatives of all stripes, and it's manifesting in interesting ways in this election.
posted by Itaxpica at 6:46 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Weren't answers about Melania's immigration status also coming 'soon' several weeks ago?

< /rhetorical
posted by Dashy at 6:49 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


We were also promised that we'd call him Mr. Brexit "soon".
posted by peeedro at 6:54 AM on September 14, 2016


I feel like the Walker news won't get the coverage it deserves. The dude was running his campaign for governor out of the county executive office and the state shrugged. The John Doe investigation was put down by a state supreme court packed with justices who were getting money from the same organizations named in the investigation.
posted by drezdn at 6:59 AM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


Weren't answers about Melania's immigration status also coming 'soon' several weeks ago?

Weeeeelllll, this morning she actually posted a letter on the twitters from her attorney that contains more detail about her visas than anything from Donald's side about his business. It sets up a disagreement over when the NYC shoot took place (95 or 96), and I'd still like to know which box she checked on her adjustment of status.
posted by holgate at 7:00 AM on September 14, 2016


Why is it always on us to hold their hands and tell them shhh it'll be okay and please maybe do a little reading about how TRUMP IS A FUCKING RACIST NEOFASCIST DEMAGOGUE but I hope I don't hurt your feelings.

Given the demographics of the Republicans and Trump supporters in particular (almost 100% white, mostly male) and the demographics of the Democrats and Hillary supporters (mostly female and poc) it just seems like emotional labor writ large.
posted by asteria at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [29 favorites]


Trump Scraps Plan to Discuss Medcal Exam

Donald J. Trump on Wednesday scrapped his previously announced plan to go over results from his most recent physical examination in a taped appearance with the television celebrity Dr. Mehmet Oz, aides to the Republican presidential nominee said.

Instead, Mr. Trump will appear with Dr. Oz but the two will have a general discussion about health and wellness, not one anchored to the fitness of one of the two major candidates for president.


*whiff*
posted by petebest at 7:07 AM on September 14, 2016 [20 favorites]


holgate: Call it Trickle-Up Economics. You help the poor and middle class, and golly gee they buy stuff!

And why the fuck are we helping the rich, they can and do help themselves well enough.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:10 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump Scraps Plan to Discuss Medcal Exam

Donald J. Trump on Wednesday scrapped his previously announced plan to go over results from his most recent physical examination in a taped appearance with the television celebrity Dr. Mehmet Oz, aides to the Republican presidential nominee said.

Instead, Mr. Trump will appear with Dr. Oz but the two will have a general discussion about health and wellness, not one anchored to the fitness of one of the two major candidates for president.

*whiff*


Well that comes off as suspicious not that it will really matter. Though with Trump his cancelling it may have nothing to do with a 'bad' issue with his health. His medical could just show anything less then perfection and that would be enough for him to not want to talk about it.

Add another thing to the list of events that I ponder how the behind the scenes thought and convo went. There better be books.
posted by Jalliah at 7:12 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


It sets up a disagreement over when the NYC shoot took place (95 or 96), and I'd still like to know which box she checked on her adjustment of status.

News reports indicated the photos in question were published in the January 1996 issue of Max. If that's accurate, and if we know the pictures were taken in New York, then it seems impossible that she's telling the truth, but whatever. #leavemelaniaalone
posted by Mothlight at 7:13 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


It seems like repeatedly pointing out TrumpOrg's cozy dealings with the Islamic world would demoralize some of the deplorable base. Drive home that he doesn't really care about anyone or anything other than Trump. He doesn't care one iota about your problems or fears, it's all about how he can profit from it. Everyone is just a mark.

I know it's pointless to expect introspection from that chunk of the electorate because a black man is in the whitehouse and a woman is on her way and that means it's full-on lizard brain all the time, but jeezus, the amount of nose that some people will cut off is simply astounding.
posted by strange chain at 7:13 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


After this morning's 538, and all the news about Walker, and the DNC leaks, and and and and and, the title of this thread now describes my daily life moment-to-moment when I'm reading the election threads here. I'm as informed as I'm going to get, and honestly it isn't me (or the people here) who need to be informed. My nervous system can't take it anymore.

See you on the 9th, one way or another.
posted by chonus at 7:14 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


There may really be nothing much to hide from the Trump Docs findings, assuming they even exist - refusing to release them could well be simply another performance of dominance, which seems to be what the man loves most of all.
posted by thelonius at 7:14 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]




Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam: But 'Deplorable' David Duke, the Holocaust denier and former Imperial Wizard of the KKK? Please, people, let's have some decorum. We're not in the name calling business.

By "we," Pence means "I." He doesn't speak for Donald Trump's campaign, that's what Donny does.

Pence might as well be wearing a "I'm not really with stupid" shirt every time he stands with Donald. And by "with," I mean "somewhere behind, so it looks like I'm generally associated with this guy."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:20 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


I unfollowed Nate Silver this morning, hopefully that will take care of this whole "tightening" thing once and for all.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:20 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


Speaking of election as game, does anyone remember the actual election Flash game from... I want to say 2004? Where you played against someone else and allocated operatives/money to various states in order to win the election? Anyone? Husband and I played the hell out of that game.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2016


I'm not sure why Trump is worried about releasing detailed medical records. If it came out that he only had 6 months to live, I wouldn't be surprised if his polling numbers went up.
posted by mach at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


For some months, my husband and I have "joked" that we'll need to be sure and finally get our passports before November 8th. This morning at breakfast I showed him the 538 numbers, and said "Well, I guess it's time."

He looked at me in great seriousness and said "Well, yeah, but where could we go?"

And now I have that sobering thought in my head. "Where COULD we go?" I honestly feel like if this happens, no place will be safe enough. Sure we could walk to Canada (we literally could, if truly necessary), but they probably wouldn't take us. No place is really safe from massive global economic collapse. Lots of places will be pretty unpleasant to live if President Trump decides to nuke Afghanistan or Iran or N. Korea (or some combination thereof).

I'm a true child of the cold war. I grew up in the '80s feeling pretty sure I would not see adulthood. That was a pretty bad feeling, but now I've found something worse -- being honestly afraid that my son is going to grow up in a country much much more frightening than the one I grew up in.

I'm a white, middle class lady. I fully understand (ok, maybe not fully, but well enough) that there are plenty of other families who have a LOT more to be frightened of from the specter of a Trump administration than mine does. A LOT MORE. And if I'm this frightened, how must they be feeling? I think so often of the families of my son's school friends, many of whom came here from west Africa to try to find a place where they could live peacefully. I feel like all I can do for them is continue to say "good morning!" as cheerfully as possible and be friendly. And hope.

We have a long-time friend, a black man who has biracial children that he is raising in rural Maine (although he grew up in inner-city Boston). I learned early this week that he's a Trump supporter (he loathes Clinton), and, as a bonus, that part of the reason he's a Trump supporter is because he's a virulent anti-Semite. We've known this guy for over 20 years, and I have no idea who we didn't know this before now. But he, like so many people, has been emboldened by Trump to be more public about his abhorrent views.

Honestly, I thought at some other times that I could not be more ashamed of my country and my fellow citizens. But now I know that it is always possible to be more ashamed, with a new bonus of being frightened of my fellow citizens as well.

I understand that the odds are still in Secretary Clinton's favor. But the process of getting here has, I think, permanently destroyed any lingering patriotism I may have had. I realize I'm not saying anything new here. All these thoughts have been said more eloquently (and with better organization) by others. But, even though I lived through Reagan and both Bush administrations (not to mention our own charming Governor) I've never felt this real true despair at the fate of our country before. Not like this. And we still have so many weeks to go.
posted by anastasiav at 7:26 AM on September 14, 2016 [54 favorites]


Any chance of those moon colonies being ready by Inauguration Day?
posted by DanSachs at 7:28 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


If it turned out that modern science was able to show that I had no heartbeat, no reflection, and a bond to native soil, I probably wouldn't release my medical records either.
posted by fragmede at 7:29 AM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


Even Nate Silver isn't immune from "ZOMG ELECTION TIGHTENING". I think I'll stick with Sam Wang.

(I'm not advocating complacency, just that gray area of sensibility between UTTER PANIC and sitting on ones own ass)
posted by Twain Device at 7:33 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


anastasiav: Honestly, I thought at some other times that I could not be more ashamed of my country and my fellow citizens. But now I know that it is always possible to be more ashamed, with a new bonus of being frightened of my fellow citizens as well.

So in my understanding of addiction treatment, the addict has to want to change, which usually only happens when they Hit Rock Bottom.

It feels like a lot of America is addicted to hate and/or anger, and it's finally coming out in the open. And when people -- like anastasiav -- learn that friend of decades now feels safe in revealing their hate, and they become scared and ashamed of their neighbors, I honestly wonder if we have finally Hit Rock Bottom.

I don't want my country to get any worse, but I also fear that this is it and we will have two bitterly-opposed factions facing off across a moat of slurs and invective. Goddamn it America, kick the habit. Do you want to become Russia IRL instead of just in a YouTube playlist of crazy dash-cam videos??
posted by wenestvedt at 7:36 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


I really don't see Silver panicking so much as saying "hey the thing we've been saying would probably happen is happening." His model has never been bullish on Clinton and it's continuing to bare those results.
posted by Tevin at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Atom Eyes: For those unfamiliar with Dr. Oz

As said by John Oliver in his 16 minute piece on Dr. Oz and Nutritional Supplements: "If you want to keep spouting this bullshit [about unproven remedies], that's fine, but don't call your show Dr. Oz, call it Check This Shit Out with Some Guy Named Mehmet"

And oh shit, this follow-up makes Dr. Oz sound like the perfect mouthpiece for Trump's health: it's all about his first amendment rights (to spout bullshit about so-called health products)!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


Speaking of election as game, does anyone remember the actual election Flash game from... I want to say 2004? Where you played against someone else and allocated operatives/money to various states in order to win the election? Anyone? Husband and I played the hell out of that game.

No, but earlier this summer I had an idea to make a Catan-esque board game along these very lines. I blame 2016 for draining all the incentive I had to continue its development; we're so far through the bizarro universe nail-fell-off rod-thrown looking-glass that, I fear, any such game is going to feel passe from here on. That is to say, for such a game to remain plausible, it would need to have no rules at all, like ten different game boards, and a completely random assortment of game counters—multicolored pawns, little pewter hydras, dirty coins, bits of string, dried-up cat turds, the occasional stale Cheeto.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 7:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


The first thing that comes to my mind is the "war on Christmas" meme: "You can't even say 'Merry Christmas' anymore without being accused of being a bigot! Christians are being persecuted in this country!" &c.

Huh. Catching up on this thread (a long way behind) over my tea break, which seems oddly appropriate on reading that.

And now I have that sobering thought in my head. "Where COULD we go?"

For a number of reasons - how much the country has in cash (rather a lot), the healthcare, the geolocation with respect to global warming, the infrastructure, the healthcare system, the lifestyle - consider Norway if, and only if, you have income streams. Nowhere, of course, is perfect and it is easy to plate-of-beans Norway - or anywhere else - and point out negative reasons. But, there and the Nordic countries more generally, look a better option than most for holing out for a while or longer.
posted by Wordshore at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


zutalors!: You put campaign ads in communities, not a tourist spot.

Hahahahaha, you're talking about Trump's billboard, right? Which is supporting Trump, the reality show asshat turned unlikely/unlikable politician?

OK, then this is a perfectly logical move for Donald. Everything he does is for national coverage. Local support is bush league bullshit. Ground game is for people who think they need more exercise and/or like to walk. Real winners fly around the country, stopping by to hype the fear, then they jet out and sleep in their own bed. (But they don't sleep too much, that's what losers do.)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:42 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I did, in fact, attend Tim Kaine's Ann Arbor rally yesterday. Here's a link to his whole speech. He stopped in at Espresso Royale prior to the event, which I got to hear about from a surprised barista at the bar where I was nursing my poor, sore feet.

I took some rather average cell phone photos from my vantage near the front of the crowd and to the side of the stage.

Highlights!

-Best America's Dad Moment: his comment that Donald Trump must have sucked 6 lemons before posing for the cover of his book, Crippled America.

-He doubled down on the deplorables talk. “If you cannot call out bigotry, if you cannot call out racism, xenophobia — if you can’t call it out and you stand back and you’re silent around it, you’re enabling it to grow,” he said. “You’re enabling it to become more powerful … so I’m happy to be on a ticket with someone who’s not afraid to call it out.”

-Unsurprisingly given the setting, a lot of the talk was focused on higher ed issues, especially improving accessibility through policies that make it debt- or cost-free. He took the opportunity to bag on Trump University and Trump's utter lack of education policy ideas.

-They handed out 'Stronger Together' signs, but I brought my own 'Do the Most Good' sign from the DNC signs pack I received a mere three weeks after ordering. The sign did the most good as a sun shield.

-A couple of undergrads admired my Spear tote from the The Toast, and the Never Trump and Hillary circa 1984 buttons adorning it. They had never heard of The Toast, though, so I filled them in #DoTheMostGood

-I did not see any leftie protests at the rally, but I was in the gated area closest to the stage. There may have been more of that throughout the rest of the Diag, although I saw none for the 1 hr+ I waited to get into said gated area, nor did I see any on my walks to and from the rally.

-However, walking from the rally to the bar, I was treated to a man yelling 'SHE HAS FUCKING PARKINSON'S FOR FUCK'S SAKE' and 'HILLARY IS A CLIT - A GODDAMNED FUCKING CLIT'. The latter confused me, as I thought we all agreed that the clitoris, as a thing whose only job is pleasure, is good and fun. I responded 'But clits are great!' but he was too busy being classy about his emotions hear such things.

He was the only Trump 'protestor' I directly encountered, although I understand The Trump Mobile was present.
posted by palindromic at 7:44 AM on September 14, 2016 [56 favorites]


That is to say, for such a game to remain plausible, it would need to have no rules at all, like ten different game boards, and a completely random assortment of game counters—multicolored pawns, little pewter hydras, dirty coins, bits of string, dried-up cat turds, the occasional stale Cheeto.

I know we're not supposed to link active Kickstarters here, so please MeMail me the details.
posted by Etrigan at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Norway has been called the most anti-Semitic Nordic country, not to mention, they have a real problem with racism and far right anti immigration folks. I don't know who it would be best for other than white folks.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]




So this week, the day after 9/11, in mid-September, a local pop station (I'm in SC) switched over to full-time Christmas music. In MID-FUCKING-SEPTEMBER.

Now, I'm new here, so maybe they do this every year, but I was talking to my husband about my ire over this last night, and how the fucking boomers want to make everything like their misremembered childhood Christmases again (a pair of hopalong boots and a pistol that shoots etc.) and it occurred to me... did they weaponize Christmas? Is this part of "Make America Great Again"?

It could be that I'm just in these threads too much and everything feels political right now and maybe all it really means is suddenly I have a free button on my car stereo but ugh this country.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:49 AM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


However, walking from the rally to the bar, I was treated to a man yelling 'SHE HAS FUCKING PARKINSON'S FOR FUCK'S SAKE' and 'HILLARY IS A CLIT - A GODDAMNED FUCKING CLIT'. The latter confused me, as I thought we all agreed that the clitoris, as a thing whose only job is pleasure, is good and fun. I responded 'But clits are great!' but he was too busy being classy about his emotions hear such things.

Thank you for reinforcing one of my core beliefs: men who treat women's genitals with disgust and rage are not good men and should be avoided at all costs.
posted by palomar at 7:51 AM on September 14, 2016 [61 favorites]


So Conway was on Fox News and said the results will be released "this week".

So we should expect a poorly written document saying "Trump's health is the bestest it's ever been!"
posted by Talez at 7:56 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Mr. Pence faced resistance again when he met privately with Senators Mike Lee of Utah and Ted Cruz of Texas, neither of whom has endorsed Mr. Trump.

Mr. Lee pressed the governor on his reluctance to denounce Mr. Duke and the so-called alt-right movement more explicitly, stressing “that Republicans must identify David Duke’s racism as deplorable,” according to Conn Carroll, a spokesman for Mr. Lee.


Deplorable. *aftershocks*
posted by petebest at 7:59 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


From the Eichenwald Newsweek article posted above:
With Middle Eastern business partners and American allies turning on him, Trump lashed out. Prince Alwaleed bin Talal—the billionaire who aided Trump during his corporate bankruptcies in the 1990s by purchasing his yacht, which provided him with desperately needed cash—sent out a tweet amid the outcry in Dubai, calling the Republican candidate a “disgrace.” (Alwaleed is a prodigious tweeter and Twitter’s second largest shareholder.) Trump responded with an attack on the prince—a member of the ruling Saudi royal family—with a childish tweet, saying, “Dopey Prince @Alwaleed_Talal wants to control our U.S. politicians with daddy’s money. Can’t do it when I get elected. #Trump2016.” [my ital]
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. And "daddy's money"?? And... and... words.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:01 AM on September 14, 2016 [37 favorites]


So this week, the day after 9/11, in mid-September, a local pop station (I'm in SC) switched over to full-time Christmas music. In MID-FUCKING-SEPTEMBER.

Is that not some sort of FCC violation?
posted by thelonius at 8:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


It feels like a lot of America is addicted to hate and/or anger

Also, victim cosplay. It's become clear to me that the big 80s-90s era Right talking point about personal responsibility and how Those People are bad because they "want to be victims" was pure 1000% projection. No one wants to be perceived as victims more than white, straight, middle class evangelical Christian men. They are visibly salivating over the notion, because they actually have no experience of what it's like to truly be oppressed and victimized because they don't know anyone of an oppressed or victimized group, have never really done any research or reading on the topic and don't actually care. They have this fever dream where being oppressed means that someone said something mean to you one time and then hundreds of people line up to give you head-pats and donations and food stamps and wow that sounds like an awesome deal! Where do I sign up to get me some of that sweet, sweet oppression? Fuck this personal responsibility noise, that's hard and it requires me to understand where I as an individual stand relative to the social contract. Boooooo-ring!

And here comes Trump with his unsubtle message that you--yes, you, my middle class white Christian male friend!--you too can be victim! Surrender all your personal responsibility to me, you didn't really want it anyway, and you can go to VictimCon with your sweet victim cosplay and have all the fun while enduring none of the actual oppression. Awesome!

This enraged word salad brought to you by #teamnotinterestedincoddlingracists
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [62 favorites]


Also I found the game (warning: autoplay audio)

I'm pretty sure there was a Primary edition too.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:07 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


So this week, the day after 9/11, in mid-September, a local pop station (I'm in SC) switched over to full-time Christmas music. In MID-FUCKING-SEPTEMBER.

I feel like radio stations and retail stores ought to have to earn the privilege of endless grating Christmas music in December by spending October playing goth or metal.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:13 AM on September 14, 2016 [33 favorites]


I have to admit that after reading the news this morning, I'm starting to feel extremely apprehensive. According to one thing I read, polls say (I know) that 50% of voters believe that HRC has "lied about her health." And two polls have Trump up in Ohio by 5 points and 3 points. The WaPo's Greg Sargent, who I think is very smart and not an alarmist, noted that he thinks the next set of polls, taken after the 9/11 incident, are going to look very bad for HRC.

This is really, really, not looking good right now, and I'll confess that I'm scared.
posted by holborne at 8:21 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's what internet trolls are for. Don't panic. Keep Calm and Hillary On.
posted by petebest at 8:23 AM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


-However, walking from the rally to the bar, I was treated to a man yelling 'SHE HAS FUCKING PARKINSON'S FOR FUCK'S SAKE' and 'HILLARY IS A CLIT - A GODDAMNED FUCKING CLIT'. The latter confused me, as I thought we all agreed that the clitoris, as a thing whose only job is pleasure, is good and fun. I responded 'But clits are great!' but he was too busy being classy about his emotions hear such things.

He's the clit commander.

Holy grodd, how is that fifteen years old already?
posted by phearlez at 8:23 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Any monkeying around with tax credits or tax deductions does nothing to alleviate the monthly or weekly pain of writing that check.

There is an option on the W4 you fill out to determine your tax withholding on your paycheck that says something like, "I'm not going to have any tax liability at the end of the year so don't deduct any income taxes." I have no idea how it's enforced, a penalty if you're consistently wrong or something maybe?

I think we could use a similar model to deal with the issue you identified. You fill out a form that says you qualify to receive your credit monthly instead of as an offset on your taxes. Then maybe your employer uses it to offset income tax and/or other deductions. The employer uses that to offset their quarterly tax payments.

That shouldn't be a big deal to handle for most larger companies, there would need to be something place to ensure we're not placing a undue burden on small business. But most of the infrastructure is already in place.

Same deal if you want to go the direct route and just mail people monthly checks (or direct deposit).

It's an issue to be sure and there are a lot more details that would need to be worked out but it's not an insurmountable problem by a long-shot.

I think one of the big upsides to tax credits is that a lot of higher income people don't realize that tax credits are basically how the government hands cash to the people we've decided need it. Propose a new program where you write people with children a check for $3,000 and you won't get very far, but call it a tax credit and although it's functionally the same thing, you'll find a lot more support.
posted by VTX at 8:25 AM on September 14, 2016


From the HRC dinner, Barbra Streisand’s Brilliant Reworking Of ‘Send In The Clowns’ Into Trump Parody ; HD

the video's cut off, here's the whole thing, starts at 4:04, but this one has the beginning of that song cut off. oh well.
posted by numaner at 8:27 AM on September 14, 2016


"my tea break, which seems oddly appropriate on reading that"

Dear Wordshore, PLEASE do an FPP about village fetes and the prizes awarded therein. Cheer us up a bit.
posted by glasseyes at 8:28 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


by spending October playing goth or metal.

I support making Type O Negative the official Hallowe'en soundtrack, to be played from Labor Day until November 1.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:36 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


The election is still the better part of two months off. A lot can happen in two months, including Hilary powering through the campaign like a triathlete and everyone forgetting all this nonsense about illness.

Constant polling is terrible and I think it impacts views in a destructive way because people respond, consciously or unconsciously, to what they perceive "normal" views to be. I wish we could just have, like, all the polls once a month to gauge popular sentiment and then just leave it alone for a while.

On the one hand, most people are terrible and that's frightening - like, why on earth would any illness of Hilary's (up to and including fast zombie virus, seriously) convince you that Trump of all people would be a better president? On the other hand, most people are terrible and in six weeks they may be onto something totally different.

It's ground game and logistics and it's not at all implausible that Hilary will beat Trump all hollow on that point.
posted by Frowner at 8:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


They are visibly salivating over the notion, because they actually have no experience of what it's like to truly be oppressed and victimized because they don't know anyone of an oppressed or victimized group,

This is really uncharitable and unrealistic. The working exploited poor are a disadvantaged group even middle class whites who don't identify as liberal have exposure to. Reality is not this absolute or black and white.

Believe me, I've got no interest in defending Trump supporters, but basing political strategy on cartoon versions of reality is rarely a recipe for success...

Don't worry about Clinton's health. Worry about Trump's personality disorder and willingness to partner with authoritarian thugs like Putin.

I'd take Clinton on life support over Trump at the peak of health any day.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


VTX: "I have no idea how it's enforced, a penalty if you're consistently wrong or something maybe?"

My layperson's understanding is that what'll happen if you mess this up is that when you do your taxes at the end of the year, you'll find that you're going to owe money to the IRS instead of getting a refund. Generally, I think the rules are: if the amount you owe is less than $1000 or less than 10% of your total federal income tax bill or if the amount of federal income tax you did pay (e.g.: via other income withholding or quarterly payments) in the current year is greater than or equal to the previous year, then you won't have to pay any extra penalty. Otherwise, you will owe an extra penalty amount, although if memory serves, the penalty is not overly punitive, maybe something like 3% (?) extra. But, having to write the IRS check in April for any non-trivial amount rather than getting a check back from them may already be a bit of a financial shock for many people.
posted by mhum at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Via the Newsweek article:

This relationship puts Trump’s foreign policies in conflict with his financial interests. Earlier this year, he said South Korea should plan to shoulder its own military defense rather than relying on the United States, including the development of nuclear weapons. (He later denied making that statement, which was video-recorded.)

Weeellllll, he probably just forgot what he said, vis-à-vis nuclear weapons.
posted by petebest at 8:44 AM on September 14, 2016


In case you missed it, Cruz Talks Trump: That guy wants to party and have someone do the pukin' for him.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 8:52 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


I had to turn off CNN this morning because of RAGE a clip they showed of Conway asking her interviewers, "Are you calling him a liar?" Then the analysts who were discussing it started talking about how this a great new Trump campaign strategy because nobody likes the "L" word, because you can't know what's in people's hearts, and OH MY FUCKING GOD SERIOUSLY!?

Maybe you can't know what's in people's hearts, but you can know the reality that's in the actual world of reality, and you can compare it to what a person says. And if that person is attempting to run for public office, and his statements are OFTEN STRANGELY IN CONFLICT WITH REALITY, you can apply to that person a handy word humans developed for just this turn of events, and it does not require any insight into that person's inner life!

In the same panel discussion, they talked about how the media are meant to be unbiased reporters of objective reality. So you would think this would be right in their wheelhouse, yeah?

Apparently not.
posted by kythuen at 8:52 AM on September 14, 2016 [30 favorites]


(He later denied making that statement, which was video-recorded.)

JFC, can't some enterprising reporter just queue up the video clip on their phone and play it back in his face? This constant toddler-esque "no I didn't" refrain from Trump that never seems to get challenged by anyone makes me feel like Mugatu
posted by Existential Dread at 8:54 AM on September 14, 2016 [29 favorites]




says who????
posted by Golem XIV at 8:57 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe you can't know what's in people's hearts, but you can know the reality that's in the actual world of reality, and you can compare it to what a person says. And if that person is attempting to run for public office, and his statements are OFTEN STRANGELY IN CONFLICT WITH REALITY, you can apply to that person a handy word humans developed for just this turn of events, and it does not require any insight into that person's inner life!

I've always been amazed at how many right-wingers dive deeply into the pool of postmodern critique the second they're given facts that don't suit them; perhaps now we are moving on to radical skepticism.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:57 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Somewhere upthread(s) someone made the point that that wouldn't work either. Whatever Trump says is the new reality, and that's that.

Also, this just in, American Journalism: dead of self-inflicted causes at 200. No film at 11.
posted by petebest at 8:57 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm going back to that Twitter debate between Norm Ornstein and Roger Cohen, and Cohen's tweet
"2)..the blurred lines at the Foundation, the air of dynastic entitlement, the "no" to press conferences"
I think this is the key to the NYT coverage. Cohen I think let slip his true belief, that she is acting "entitled", and it's a dynasty he had to oppose. In other words, ba personal hatred that I've seen expressed by others on the Left.

So I think the bottom line is that it's obvious by now that the New York Times (and possibly the AP) will endorse Trump, and then end any pretense of objectivity.
posted by happyroach at 9:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


From Macleans magazine (a Canadian perspective):

An absurd week in America’s two-tier election

Pundits claim Clinton had a bad week. Next to Donald Trump’s seven days of gaffes and scandal, that is insane.
posted by piyushnz at 9:04 AM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


So I think the bottom line is that it's obvious by now that the New York Times (and possibly the AP) will endorse Trump

I cannot believe this. I mean, literally, I am unable to. Even if it happens, I will still be unable to after the fact.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:06 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


He's not a liar, liars care about the truth. He's an ignorant bullshitter.
posted by Meatbomb at 9:07 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ed Kilgore: Drumpf’s Path to Victory Is Starting to Look Very Real

[...]

"The Upshot, which rates Clinton at an even higher 79 percent win probability, offers this sobering analogy: 'Mrs. Clinton’s chance of losing is about the same as the probability that an N.F.L. kicker misses a 45-yard field goal.'

"So, in the fourth quarter of a very close game, when that placekicker trots out onto the field with everything on the line, how confident are you that he will nail that “high-probability” field goal? Are you a tad nervous?

"Those who have laughed off Donald Drumpf’s chances while believing his election would represent a turn for the worse in their own lives should be nervous right now. "
posted by holborne at 9:08 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Does AP do endorsements? It's supposed to be a wire service.
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


He's not a liar, liars care about the truth. He's an ignorant bullshitter.

No. Liars are people who tell lies. He's a liar.
posted by rocket88 at 9:15 AM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


"Are you calling him a liar?" Then the analysts who were discussing it started talking about how this a great new Trump campaign strategy because nobody likes the "L" word, because you can't know what's in people's hearts, and OH MY FUCKING GOD SERIOUSLY!?

I wish someone would respond, "He tells lies, the word for someone who tells lies is 'liar' so yes, I'm calling Republican Presidential Nominee Donald J. Trump a liar." Semantically, a person saying factually incorrect things knowing that they're incorrect, they're a liar, otherwise they're just wrong.

The trick here would be to have a Daily Show style montage of him telling lies, there are enough instances of him claiming to never have said something that he actually said on video that the video would take a while. If she tries to say that he didn't remember or whatever dumb excuse, you go to the video of him claiming to have the best memory because he was clearly lying about that.

There is still a middle ground where you can draw a line in the sand ask if he lies constantly, is constantly wrong, or both.
posted by VTX at 9:17 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


Andrea Mitchell is breaking that Dr. Bornstein did do Trump's latest physical and he does discuss it with Oz on the show.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:21 AM on September 14, 2016


"Are you calling me a liar?" is like, the oldest abuser trick in the book.

They are gaslighting the U.S.
posted by kyrademon at 9:22 AM on September 14, 2016 [70 favorites]


It's all just media manipulation.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:23 AM on September 14, 2016


Nancy Pelosi: Donald Trump Is The Gift That Keeps On Giving | Morning Joe | MSNBC

She predicts a single digit difference in the House, one way or the other.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:23 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


The NYT will endorse Clinton, but will do so with so much concern trolling and "despite x that's not actually a thing except we made it into one" that it will convince more people to stay home, vote 3rd party, or vote for Trump than it will convince people to vote Clinton.

On a personal note, I think my obsession with these threads and the minutiae of the election actually helps to distract me from the existential, physical dread I would feel if I allowed myself to really contemplate the idea of Trump winning. It's not optimism really at all, it's just a way to (unhealthily, I'm sure) manage my anxiety about it without going to a totally dark place. Purposefully focusing on the individual trees so as to not think about the dark, haunted forest we're in.
posted by misskaz at 9:23 AM on September 14, 2016 [35 favorites]


He tells lies. He's a bullshitter who tells lies.

There was a discussion about this during the RNC thread, linking to an Guardian article which I forget now, that delineated the difference: a liar has to be aware of the truth to formulate a lie. A bullshitter just spouts off whatever he feels will give him the advantage at that moment.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:27 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


So I think the bottom line is that it's obvious by now that the New York Times (and possibly the AP) will endorse Trump, and then end any pretense of objectivity.

Uh. The NYTimes editorial board has endorsed Hillary four times, and endorsed Kasich this year for the Republican primary. I don't remember the last time the Times endorsed a Republican for president in the general.

It'll be a cold day in hell before they endorse Trump over Hillary.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:28 AM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


Just want to revist the child care plan for a second -- apparently it's changed from what we discussed in August.
Trump's plan would guarantee new mothers six weeks of paid maternity leave to employees whose companies don't already offer leave.
...
Only individuals earning $250,000 or less and joint-income households earning $500,000 or less would qualify for the deductions. The deductions are capped at the average cost of child care in each state.
...
Trump's campaign said lower-income earners would receive child-care spending rebates through expanding the existing Earned Income Tax Credit.
These are significant improvements on what he proposed before, addressing several of the criticisms raised in that previous thread. Not as good as Hillary Clinton's plans. But better than anything on this subject I've ever heard from a Republican in my lifetime. Kinda weird to change by this much, this fast, on an issue you actually care about, so I kinda see it as more evidence that he doesn't actually care. But still, Paul Ryan must be having conniption fits, and that's always a positive thing.

Of course, Trump still says "take out their families," "take the oil" and "torture works" and wants to be just like Vladimir Putin, so I'm still not voting for him.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:29 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Shit. If elected, Trump would just say "Child care plan? I never mentioned child care." And that would be that.
posted by valkane at 9:33 AM on September 14, 2016 [31 favorites]


The NYT will endorse Clinton, but will do so with so much concern trolling

My money is here as well.

Kinda weird to change by this much, this fast, on an issue you actually care about, so I kinda see it as more evidence that he doesn't actually care.

This is clearly Ivanka. It's an issue she personally cares about and since the Trump campaign's official position on policies is ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ they were like, 'Sure, whatever Ivanka, knock yourself out.' It's connection to actual official GOP policies is zilch. Which on the one hand is hilarious to me and the other is AAAAAAAAAA OMG THEY DID ONE THING KIND OF RIGHT AND NOW EVERYONE'S GOING TO BE LIKE, HEY THAT TRUMP GUY'S NOT SO BAD, IF YOU JUST IGNORE THE OTHER 9 BILLION THINGS HE'S DONE WRONG!
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:34 AM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]



This is clearly Ivanka. It's an issue she personally cares about


Cite?
posted by zutalors! at 9:35 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


You know the Congressional Republicans' plans to stonewall everything President Hillary proposes? They'll just use the same method to stonewall anything President Donald proposes that doesn't fit Standard Republican/Koch/PaulRyan policy... tax breaks for the 1%? Sails through. child care? Fugettaboutit.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


Cite?

Her speech at the RNC. Which talked about it and was so totally out of step with everything else going on there.
posted by Francis at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


She specifically mentioned it in her Convention speech, and at that time too everyone went, "Huhhhhhh? Those... those aren't Republican policies."
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]





Cite?

Her speech at the RNC
.

I don't think that means she cares about it personally.
posted by zutalors! at 9:38 AM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


The fact that Trump is the Republican candidate for President of the United States, and within striking distance of winning the election (although as others have noted, Sam Wang is still not sanguine about his chances), does not bode well for the future of American society. From the outside looking in, the country looks broken in a way that will not be fixed by Hillary squeaking out a win. The position he is in is the end result of a breathtaking and terrifying failure of the press, political class and citizenry's responsibility to objectively weigh the merits of political candidates, hold them to account for their words and actions, think beyond their own immediate interests and their willingness and/or ability to confront the modern world and all its messy, complicated problems.

In darker moments I sometimes wonder if Trump is also the end result of some sort of unconscious societal death wish.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:38 AM on September 14, 2016 [25 favorites]


I honestly wonder if we have finally Hit Rock Bottom.

No, that was slavery.

Or Jim Crow.

Or the genocide of Native Americans.

Or the internment camps.
posted by asteria at 9:39 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Well, Trump is the first step in bringing that all back.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:40 AM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


They are visibly salivating over the notion, because they actually have no experience of what it's like to truly be oppressed and victimized because they don't know anyone of an oppressed or victimized group,

This is really uncharitable and unrealistic.


It might be a little simplistic, but OTOH evangelicals (in general, but especially on the right) have been promoting a narrative of "heroically maintaining and spreading Christianity in the face of horrible oppression" for decades, in Christian fiction and non-fiction; smuggling bibles into Communist Russia, holding secret prayer groups in Nazi Germany, preaching on the mean streets of gang-ridden NYC, missionary work in war-torn Africa, all the way back to the Romans throwing the Christians to the lions. My mother was (still is, probably) a regular listener to Christian radio, and almost all of the shows had at least one segment of either "True Story of Spreading The Word In The Face of Imminent Death" or promoting a new novel dramatizing such stories. And this is back in the 70's and 80's.

In youth groups we were told that we should take inspiration from these stories in our everyday lives, maintaining our faith in the face of (admittedly less dangerous) mockery or disbelief. The people in the stories were held up as heroes and heroines, with the strong implication that being able to follow their example would be a TRUE display of the strength of our Christianity.

So it's not at all unrealistic to think that people who have spent most if not all of their lives being told that resisting oppression is not only heroic but holy would feel a strong internal urge to actually experience oppression. (Which is one of the reasons we've gotten such ridiculous nonsense as "Happy Holidays = WAR ON CHRISTMAS" - in safe white suburban America that's as close as they can come to "oppression.")
posted by soundguy99 at 9:40 AM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


Ivanka doesn't offer her employees maternity leave. If this was an issue that was dear to her, wouldn't she?
posted by palomar at 9:41 AM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


Not when there's money to be made.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:42 AM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


it's the grading on a curve again. Of course Trump's "attractive mother of three" working daughter gives the maternity leave speech. Of course it has personal anecdotes of how she cares. That doesn't mean she cares, or has done other advocacy in this area.
posted by zutalors! at 9:42 AM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


Or, I guess to be more accurate, the companies that actually produce the products that she's licensed her name to don't offer their employees maternity leave. My larger point stands: if Ivanka truly cared about universal maternity leave, why would she choose to engage in business with companies that do not honor and uphold her allegedly deeply held values?
posted by palomar at 9:43 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Short answer: because she's a charlatan just like Daddy.)
posted by palomar at 9:43 AM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]


Trump child care is another bone to Republicans who worry about voting for Trump because he's anti-woman. This provides them with some cover and they can go back to being comfortable voting for him. It's the female outreach equivalent of his black outreach.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:45 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


Yeah, when I asked for a cite I meant prior advocacy, record of working with business to provide family leave, POV in her writing? Since she cares so personally and all.
posted by zutalors! at 9:45 AM on September 14, 2016


I have to admit that after reading the news this morning, I'm starting to feel extremely apprehensive. According to one thing I read, polls say (I know) that 50% of voters believe that HRC has "lied about her health." And two polls have Trump up in Ohio by 5 points and 3 points. The WaPo's Greg Sargent, who I think is very smart and not an alarmist, noted that he thinks the next set of polls, taken after the 9/11 incident, are going to look very bad for HRC.

This is really, really, not looking good right now, and I'll confess that I'm scared.


Here's a map of the race if polls shifted +2% in favor of Trump. He very may well win Ohio, in the same way that he may very well win Iowa. Clinton has a firewall in Colorado, New Mexico, and Virginia, driven by Latino voters. There's now a built-in demographic advantage that makes it virtually impossible for a candidate to win on an explicitly racist platform. The Republicans have been shouting that at themselves for four years. And then their supporters went ahead and nominated a racist asshole.
posted by one_bean at 9:46 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Just want to revist the child care plan for a second

Trump just wants to make money and be mega-famous, and he chooses his plans and policies according to that goal. That goal is rarely served by any sort of compassionate care plan; in this case, he desperately needs to counter Hillary's solid, multi-directional family-support policies.

So he's come up with (or rather, IMHO, Ivanka's come up with and he's signed off on) a plan that (1) taps into money that already exists (it's adding a permission to collect unemployment benefits during an existing job - which reduces those benefits in case of actually losing the job) and (2) allows a tax deduction - not a credit - which only helps families that pay income tax. (Capped by state-level childcare costs, which run about ~5k-12k with some outliers.)

I can't say that $20 an hour for a sole breadwinner, family of four, is below the tax line, because I haven't made that much for a full year. But $20/hour for half a year, with some unemployment and minuscule self-employment income while supporting a family, does not require paying taxes, and wouldn't get any use from the childcare deduction.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:47 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't think that means she cares about it personally.

Oh, I didn't mean that she has, like, a deep emotional connection to this topic that keeps her up at night. I just meant that she or someone else along the way has decided that it's a good look for her for this set of issues to be Her Thing and if she's anything like her father, she likes the idea of "having an impact" by floating policy issues on something that has been identified via optics as Her Thing.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:47 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


As we've seen with the recent reporting on the Trump Foundation, the unofficially official Trump family policy seems to be 'we support other people doing good and charitable work with their money.'

That fits in with the longstanding Republican platform -- charities and rich people doing things is better than the government doing things.
posted by Etrigan at 9:49 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yep soren_lorensen, agree with all of that. But I also don't think it needs a 'deep emotional connection' - we'll never hear another thing from her about maternity leave after this election, I'm sure. So her connection is just in no way personal.
posted by zutalors! at 9:50 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ivanka and her siblings remind me of every kid of the boss I've ever worked for. Some people don't see her as evil, but she is as imperceptive and insensitive as anyone in her family. She made a speech about parental leave never giving a thought to what the actual platform was. She's accustomed to saying and getting. And how cute, she immediately tweeted how to buy the outfit she was wearing.

They are all charlatans at best and I'd like to think that the election will be the last we've heard of them. But I have a feeling they will use the spotlight to line their pockets for decades to come.
posted by readery at 9:50 AM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


Ivanka is horrible, and it frustrates me that she gets this pass because she's obviously just going along or something or Save Ivanka or what is she thinking type stuff (not referring to anyone here but prior threads and those longform articles).

She's horrible, and whatever good points she had before she's now at the cross burning roasting marshmallows, as Jay Smooth said.
posted by zutalors! at 9:55 AM on September 14, 2016 [20 favorites]


Dear Wordshore, PLEASE do an FPP about village fetes and the prizes awarded therein. Cheer us up a bit.

Seriously?! I was judging the entries at a rural English village show this weekend just gone and only just escaped with my life. Tweeted some of it: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]

It's going to take a lot of tea and a long sit-down (a few days more) to get over that. Maybe an FPP then, or if I survive next weekends shows. In the meantime, am putting a few pictures from more convivial/less threatening fetes and village shows I'm attending into this Flickr album.
posted by Wordshore at 9:56 AM on September 14, 2016 [32 favorites]


Having already detailed how Ivanka Trump and Melania Trump are complicit in Donald's disgusting enterprise, it's only fair to shine some light on the adult men involved in this hatefest. So today, I bring you a post on Eric Trump.

Eric, along with his brother Donald Jr, was photographed during a "hunting" trip to Africa, in which they posed over the corpses of many different animals.
During the hunting trip, the Trump sons reportedly killed a number of exotic animals, including an elephant, crocodile, kudu, civet cat and waterbuck.

Eric Trump blames victims of workplace sexual harassment for daring to be on the receiving end of inappropriate conduct.


Eric Trump spoke at the hoodless Klan rally RNC in Cleveland in support of his father. Eric has played defense for his father regarding the allegedly fraudulent Trump University and blames the scam's victims for losing money. He also defends his father's alleged bribery of FL Attorney General Pam Bondi. The younger Trump son also has fond words for Russian autocrat Vladimir V. Putin.

At the family's golf clubs in Jupiter, FL, Eric Trump has also helped implement an absurd policy that denied payment of refundable depositions to members who were trying to leave the club.
But the Ritz’s policy was to allow members access to the club until they received their refund. It’s a perfectly logical and fair policy. Donald Trump himself told members in a 2012 letter that refund-seekers would lose access to the golf course and its amenities but wouldn’t have to pay annual fees. That's also a fair compromise.

Eric Trump wrongly claimed in a 2015 deposition that members seeking a refund were required to pay their dues but hadn’t been barred from the club. He admitted on Tuesday that he was confused because his family has “18 different clubs with 18 different sets of membership documents. I can’t know every detail in a company our size.”
While not quite as odious as his father and brother, Eric Trump has engaged in reprehensible behavior in supporting his father. The adults in Hillary's Opponent's immediate family are some of the people most responsible for this years terrifying and destructive election. I will never let them off the hook.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:57 AM on September 14, 2016 [30 favorites]


jesus mother-loving christ how do you kill an elephant on purpose for funsies and not spend every waking moment of the rest of your life feeling like just the worst kind of garbage
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:00 AM on September 14, 2016 [103 favorites]


jesus mother-loving christ how do you kill an elephant on purpose for funsies and not spend every waking moment of the rest of your life feeling like just the worst kind of garbage

Be raised in the Trump household, apparently.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:05 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


So it's not at all unrealistic to think that people who have spent most if not all of their lives being told that resisting oppression is not only heroic but holy would feel a strong internal urge to actually experience oppression.

Yeah but the claim was middle class white people don't know any exploited or oppressed people. No matter how misguided their beliefs about why may or may not be, generational poor whites are also an oppressed group that really exists and existed even before just a couple of decades ago. You could argue they aren't "as oppressed" if you're into that, but nobody should think anybody who's vulnerable gets treated well under mercenary capitalism.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:08 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


At the family's golf clubs in Jupiter, FL, Eric Trump has also helped implement an absurd policy that denied payment of refundable depositions to members who were trying to leave the club.

Are there Democrats who actually think that a wealthy-on-wealthy financial crime is gonna have legs with their voters?
posted by indubitable at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2016


And now I have that sobering thought in my head. "Where COULD we go?"
For a number of reasons - how much the country has in cash (rather a lot), the healthcare, the geolocation with respect to global warming, the infrastructure, the healthcare system, the lifestyle - consider Norway if, and only if, you have income streams.

Is there preference for Norwegian-Americans? Four years of Norwegian Language Camp should get me on the dole, right?
posted by msalt at 10:09 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


jesus mother-loving christ how do you kill an elephant on purpose for funsies and not spend every waking moment of the rest of your life feeling like just the worst kind of garbage

"I like elephants that weren't captured, okay?" - Trump kids, probably
posted by melissasaurus at 10:11 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]




At the family's golf clubs in Jupiter, FL, Eric Trump has also helped implement an absurd policy that denied payment of refundable depositions to members who were trying to leave the club.

Are there Democrats who actually think that a wealthy-on-wealthy financial crime is gonna have legs with their voters?


Um yes?
posted by zutalors! at 10:11 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


The weird thing for me is that there cannot be any sport in killing an elephant. Like I'm not a fan of hunting for the sake of hunting, but if you're going to get up before dawn, smear around animal urine, search for tracks, wait for a flash of movement amid hours and hours of tedium, I can at least sort of appreciate the amount of effort you've gone to. But adult African elephants don't really have predators besides humans. They spend a good amount of time standing still. Shooting an elephant isn't hunting; it's, at best, an extremely expensive single shot trip to the shooting range, except, you know, an actual elephant is lying there dead afterwards.

How is that remotely appealing?
posted by zachlipton at 10:12 AM on September 14, 2016 [34 favorites]


But the process of getting here has, I think, permanently destroyed any lingering patriotism I may have had....But, even though I lived through Reagan and both Bush administrations (not to mention our own charming Governor) I've never felt this real true despair at the fate of our country before.

In darker moments I sometimes wonder if Trump is also the end result of some sort of unconscious societal death wish.

If Trump were to win I think it would be the end of the country. I've argued with people about whether to stay and fight is better than leaving, but to me it would be like one of those Ask questions; "My wife spent all our savings on drugs, burned down the house, and killed the children. But we have long history and were in love. I can't imagine being without them. How can I save this marriage?"

I don't view this as an accident of history. I think it's in the air, and not just the USA. We've thought we were at turning points before, but they were just the warm up to this.

A big part of me just feels like if that many people just want to burn it down there's not much to be done. They're running around the house smashing things and setting things on fire, we're trying to clean up after them and talking about our retirement plan. This relationship may not be salvageable.
posted by bongo_x at 10:13 AM on September 14, 2016 [21 favorites]


Are there Democrats who actually think that a wealthy-on-wealthy financial crime is gonna have legs with their voters?

It speaks to the Trump family's contempt for everybody -- in this case, they are trying to get away with scamming people with money to stand up to them. If they will cheat people who can stand up to them, what will they do to those who can't?

This scam was a particularly bad idea for them, because the Trumps are most successful in making money when they stiff contractors and bilk people out of their savings.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:13 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


I did, in fact, attend Tim Kaine's Ann Arbor rally yesterday. Here's a link to his whole speech. He stopped in at Espresso Royale prior to the event, which I got to hear about from a surprised barista at the bar where I was nursing my poor, sore feet.

Eh, should have gone to Mighty Good.
posted by Preserver at 10:14 AM on September 14, 2016


Don't panic, by the way. The thing to do is to keep methodically taking steps to help get out the vote, whether it's phone banking, canvassing or donating. Do what you can to help get some D-leaning people registered and to the polls. The Republicans want you worried and despairing so that you might decide to stay home on election day.

Tl;Dr - fear is the mind killer.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:15 AM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]


How is that remotely appealing?

Destroying something that large and helpless against you makes a certain kind of person's dick feel real good.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:17 AM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


By treating the Greens seriously, Vox demonstrates why we don't take the Greens seriously.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:18 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Destroying something that large and helpless against you makes a certain kind of person's dick feel real good.

ugh definitely not having lunch now, rip my appetite
posted by stolyarova at 10:18 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


Uh, are yall missing this twitter beatdown Hillary Clinton's campaign is issuing regarding the Newsweek article?

MSNBC is talking about Dr. Oz or whatever, and so Clinton's campaign is out there having to be journalists as well.
posted by cashman at 10:18 AM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


Norway has been called the most anti-Semitic Nordic country, not to mention, they have a real problem with racism and far right anti immigration folks. I don't know who it would be best for other than white folks.

Seriously? We're talking about people looking to leave America, where police already shoot and kill innocent minorities on the regular, in the event that an openly racist authoritarian takes over. When I googled "racism in Norway" just now, I saw lots of concern over racist comments on websites, and racist or ignorant comments to people on the street. Which is terrible of course, but hardly the same thing. A comedian appeared in blackface 3 years ago! OMG! That would never happen in the US.

Let us know when you find a country free of racism, we can all move there.
posted by msalt at 10:22 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Because it's open in another tab and y'all keep making comments here!
posted by VTX at 10:22 AM on September 14, 2016




I get that the Newsweek article isn't flashy, easily-digestible journalism for places like MSNBC. I also get that they need time to digest it and perhaps do their own reporting on top of it, and that perhaps tonight on Matthews/Maddow/Lawrence they'll do more, but it really seems like that Newsweek piece should be getting more attention.

Especially since Hillary Clinton's twitter has tweeted out 20 questions Trump needs to answer in light of that article. Every time that goofball tweets out something dumb, they fall all over themselves to report it. Here you have the Clinton campaign having tweeted out 20-25 tweets, and they're talmbout doctor oz. Trump & nem are clearly just playing games with his medical records cause that's easier to digest, and gives media something to report instead of what Hillary's campaign is saying. Get it together, good god.
posted by cashman at 10:25 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Yeah, I imagine it's just about the thrill of killing such a large animal. Also there's the exclusivity of it of course. Killing an elephant is generally taboo and there are hardly enough of them to go around, so there are bragging rights to be had if your friends are also rich assholes like yourself.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:26 AM on September 14, 2016


3. He kisses his daughter "as often as [he] can"

"Eww, Dad, no tongue!" [fake, I hope, for the love of all that's holy]
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:27 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Are you a tad nervous?
A tad nervous? I'm a Vikings fan. This analogy scares the shit outta me.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:28 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


To get over the "stamina" issue Hil should challenge Trump to 3 chin-ups during the debate. Yes, it's not very Presidential, but the bar is so low nowadays.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:32 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Stolen from Fark: Trump won't release his health report because they did a colonoscopy and found a brain tumor.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:35 AM on September 14, 2016 [59 favorites]


but the bar is so low nowadays.

But but but if its too low, it will be too easy for Trump to do the chin-up.

It's about ethics in exercise is what I'm saying.
posted by Twain Device at 10:35 AM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


so there are bragging rights to be had if your friends are also rich assholes like yourself.

As I've said here before, the existence of Safari Club International makes me wish I believed in a punitive afterlife.
posted by holgate at 10:37 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


ugh definitely not having lunch now, rip my appetite

Sorry.

What we learned from Trump on Dr. Oz, so far:

1. He's overweight

2. He never exercises

3. He kisses his daughter "as often as [he] can"


Oh sweet Jesus.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:40 AM on September 14, 2016


3. He kisses his daughter "as often as [he] can"

Which one?

[JK. Feels for poor, abandoned Tiffany.]
posted by zakur at 10:42 AM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


@JesseRodriguez: Per an audience member at Dr. Oz taping with Trump, he said he likes fast food because "at least you know what they are putting in it."
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 10:43 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


4. If you were willing to work with Qaddafi—a known terrorist and dictator—is there anyone you aren't willing to make a deal with? Who?

8. Will you disclose the nature of your personal and business relationships with all of the Russian oligarchs you are “close” to?

9. Have you or your campaign discussed U.S.-Russian relations with the Russian billionaires with whom you've done business?

10. How did the Russian mob boss who ran a criminal organization out of Trump Tower get a VIP pass to your Miss Universe pageant in Moscow?

13. How can we know you won't (again) impulsively damage relationships with crucial allies to preserve your own ego?

14. We know you engaged extensively in pay-to-play here at home. Have you bribed foreign officials or other parties abroad?

16. You've mentioned ~120 foreign deals, including in countries with national security implications. Where and with whom are you working?


BOOM pew pew pew eht eht eht eht eht fffffffffhhhwwwwPKHOOOOOMMM pop pop!
posted by petebest at 10:43 AM on September 14, 2016 [29 favorites]


Remember Crosscheck? The system that could cause chaos at the polls this November and disenfranchise lots of people?

For the Madison, Wisconsin mefites, Greg Palast is doing a screening of his 2-hour film "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy", on Thursday. Palast will be speaking at this Thursday's event.

I had no idea the New York Times had done some reporting on this back in 2014.
"If even a fraction of those names are blocked from voting or purged from voter rolls, it could [...] perhaps prove decisive in the 2016 presidential vote count.”
posted by cashman at 10:44 AM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


[JK. Feels for poor, abandoned Tiffany.]

Eh, at this point I'm feeling like she's the fortunate one.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:47 AM on September 14, 2016 [39 favorites]


I also get that they need time to digest it and perhaps do their own reporting on top of it, and that perhaps tonight on Matthews/Maddow/Lawrence they'll do more, but it really seems like that Newsweek piece should be getting more attention.
As soon as I read this article this morning I knew it would take awhile for it to grow legs and walk on its own. It's extremely complicated and full of suggestions of impropriety, but there's no easy meat to grab and chew on. You can toss out a soundbite on how he used charity money to buy a painting of himself, but this article has nothing that simple.

My greatest hope is that Hillary gets sworn in on Jan 20th while Trump is under indictment.
posted by xyzzy at 10:48 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


So it's not at all unrealistic to think that people who have spent most if not all of their lives being told that resisting oppression is not only heroic but holy would feel a strong internal urge to actually experience oppression.

Yeah but the claim was middle class white people don't know any exploited or oppressed people. No matter how misguided their beliefs about why may or may not be, generational poor whites are also an oppressed group that really exists and existed even before just a couple of decades ago. You could argue they aren't "as oppressed" if you're into that, but nobody should think anybody who's vulnerable gets treated well under mercenary capitalism.


I see your point, but this would only have an effect IF said middle-class white people are able and/or willing to view capitalism as possibly oppressive and white working poor as oppressed rather than "unlucky" or "stupid" or "makes bad decisions."

Which, mostly, right/Republican-leaning white middle-class people don't. At most, the "oppression" of poor whites is the fault of Obama/liberals/the government, rather than capitalism or businesses. If they don't see white working poor as oppressed then they don't, in practice, know any oppressed people, so I don't see how knowing poor working whites can influence the middle-classes' sublimated desire to experience "real" oppression.

That's what I took to be the point of soren_lorensen's comment - not that the white middle-class doesn't know exploited or oppressed people in actual objective reality, but that their own privilege and cultural assumptions and blind spots means that they don't understand what it really means to be exploited or oppressed, even when an actual example is standing right in front of them quoting them a price on replacing their muffler.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:48 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


10. How did the Russian mob boss who ran a criminal organization out of Trump Tower get a VIP pass to your Miss Universe pageant in Moscow?

Company seats?
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:52 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Have we gotten to the Kim Jong Un bromance yet or is that next week ?
posted by y2karl at 11:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Finally, the right thread...
posted by y2karl at 11:02 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's extremely complicated and full of suggestions of impropriety, but there's no easy meat to grab and chew on.

The starting point is that Trump saying that he could hand over TrumpOrg to a 'blind trust' run by his kids is bullshit. Blind trusts are blind because the beneficiaries have no knowledge of the assets, not just no control over them. Every asset in TrumpOrg, whether owned or licensed, tangible or intangible, has his fucking name plastered all over it. (And every asset in TrumpOrg is tied to a shitload of liabilities.) If Trump had to liquidate all of his assets to put them in T-bills or cash or index funds, then it would probably also entail settling all of his debts, and who knows what would be left at the end.
posted by holgate at 11:04 AM on September 14, 2016 [21 favorites]


Am I understanding correctly that the story is that Trump's wildly unprofessional doctor examined him, wrote the results down on a piece of paper, handed that paper to Trump's staff, who in turn handed it to notorious charlatan Dr. Oz, who then said on TV that it was good and read out some portions?

If the media treats this as anything but a bad joke I will headdesk to the floor below
posted by prefpara at 11:07 AM on September 14, 2016 [26 favorites]


Everyone not currently a member of the 1% is being oppressed by the 1%.

I'm an upper-middle class white guy and yeah, I'm oppressed. My income should be 40% higher than it thanks to income inequality. Relative to, like, ANY other demographic, I don't know what real oppression is beyond what my empathy gets me. And it's weird because I know that, just by being white and male, I oppress whole groups of other people. My boss is a white guy just like me, as much as we both try to be conscious of our own unconscious bias, I'll never really know if it was a minor factor that caused my boss to offer me the job over someone else. I'm CERTAIN that there are instances where an opportunity offered to me was taken from a member of an oppressed group. No one did it on purpose or with malice, but I'm sure it's happened. There are members of the 1% who feel the same way, Hillary is one of them, even the oppression thing because she's a woman.

So it's pretty easy for me to rationalize helping those more oppressed than I am. By solving their problems, mine are going to get solved as a side affect. I hope that it helps those other folks more because they need more help but it's pretty hard for those things NOT to help me.

So I guess in short, I try to focus on helping the groups more oppressed than me because I can count on my white-male privilege to ensure that a side effect of those actions benefit me. It's like, I don't have to do anything to benefit myself. Just about anything the helps less privileged people can't help but help me.
posted by VTX at 11:07 AM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


Well i guess we know why he refuses to release his tax returns.
posted by Jalliah at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Charles Pierce: Do We Face a Threat of Armed Sedition?:
The Wilmington coup was so bad that "race riot" is considered a euphemism for what went on. A year earlier, a woman from Georgia named Rebecca Felton had given a speech defending the practice of lynching by saying, "If it requires lynching to protect woman's dearest possession from ravening, drunken human beasts, then I say lynch a thousand negroes a week ... if it is necessary."

This speech so angered Alex Manly, the son of former slaves who ran a successful newspaper in Wilmington, that he wrote a scathing editorial in which he pointed out that Felton's argument was simply a cover for consensual sexual relationships between the races. When the coup broke out, Manly escaped, but the first thing the mob did was burn down his newspaper office. Then, it set about killing African-Americans, and we still don't know how many died. The local government was overthrown, setting white supremacy in place in Wilmington for nearly another century.

[...]

I mention all of this because, over the weekend, the Governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, a jumped-up talk-show boob named Matt Bevin, in a speech to the Values Voter Summit, summoned the spirit of the Wilmington rioters.
posted by palindromic at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2016 [31 favorites]


Oh, this is too funny.
(Context: Zoe Kazan is the granddaughter of Elia Kazan, who directed the movie A Face in the Crowd.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Counterpoint to all the NPR hate upthread: the other day on Marketplace, Kai Ryssdal reported on Trump accusing Janet Yellen and the Fed of manipulating interest rates for political purposes. He then followed this by saying (I'm paraphrasing) "Of course, there is no evidence at all that this is happening, and one could call an accusation of this magnitude with no evidence to support it a lie. So I'm going to. Trump is lying."

I definitely hear a bit of the kayfabe and bullshit on some NPR political discussion shows that people here are complaining about, but on the whole their reporting seems pretty solid to me. Different NPR news programs are different, and I certainly don't hear all of them. Maybe you all are listening to Morning Edition or something?
posted by biogeo at 11:12 AM on September 14, 2016 [18 favorites]


Kai Ryssdal

it's so weird seeing NPR personalities' names written out textually. Like watching a dog walk on its hind legs
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:15 AM on September 14, 2016 [42 favorites]


The boutique shows that air on NPR are often not produced by NPR, like Market place and Science Friday.
posted by suelac at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


The starting point is that Trump saying that he could hand over TrumpOrg to a 'blind trust' run by his kids is bullshit.
For sure, but I don't think your average American has put too much thought into what Presidents do with their business ventures while in office. Even this portion of the article requires an explainer for a decent percentage of the population, and there will be some level of pushback from people wondering why the hell Trump can't just keep having his name on everything while POTUS because he "worked hard." Nevermind that Trump's version of "working hard" equates to allowing randos to put his name on their office spaces and hotels.
posted by xyzzy at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


The original story if you don't want to rely on my paraphrasing.
posted by biogeo at 11:16 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Here's a map of the race if polls shifted +2% in favor of Trump.

Your map is overly optimistic. It's still got Nevada in blue, for example. Nevada may be red right now much less if it shifts 2 points to Trump. And what if it shifts 4 points to Trump which I think is likely in polls taken over the weekend and early this week?

Like I said yetserday, I think it's a good bet Trump leads the polling averages sometime in the next two weeks. Whether that is a short term blip because of freakouts about Clinton's health which subside as soon as she gets back out on the trail or a new normal is something we'll have to see. It may well be that the first debate controls which of those cases takes hold.

Complacency is the enemy. The electoral college is not going to save us if the race shifts to Trump by 4 points.
posted by Justinian at 11:17 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


The NPR political podcast the other day put forth the following two propositions with no hint of irony:
1. Clinton is clearly a huge policy wonk; her website is full of plans on a wide range of issues. She has coherent plans.
2. Clinton can't just sit back and let this election be a referendum on Trump, she has to present a positive vision of her plan for America, which she's not doing.

IT CAN'T BE BOTH WHY DO YOU USE WORDS IF THEY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:18 AM on September 14, 2016 [52 favorites]


Meanwhile, Trump has raised concerns in the United States among national security experts for his consistent and effusive praise for Vladimir Putin, the Russian ruler who also now controls much of Ukraine. With its founder in the White House, the Trump Organization would have an extraordinary entrée into those countries.

If the company sold its brand in Russia while Trump was in the White House, the world could be faced with the astonishing site of hotels and office complexes going up in downtown Moscow with the name of the American president emblazoned in gold atop the buildings.


Which he would. And he'd sleep fine.
posted by petebest at 11:18 AM on September 14, 2016


it's so weird seeing NPR personalities' names written out textually. Like watching a dog walk on its hind legs

What's really weird is realizing you have no idea how to spell it, making a wild guess, and then discovering you were right. (I mean, probably I've seen his name written out before somewhere, but still.)
posted by biogeo at 11:18 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


The boutique shows that air on NPR are often not produced by NPR, like Market place and Science Friday.

Yeah, Marketplace is produced and distributed by American Public Media
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:20 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


IT CAN'T BE BOTH WHY DO YOU USE WORDS IF THEY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING
Yeah, I spent yesterday listening to the news talking heads bitching about Clinton's "policy free" campaign strategy and also happened to catch an NPR story about her stump speech that complained it was too heavy on policy and too light on meaningful and friendly personal anecdotes that would make people like her more.
posted by xyzzy at 11:22 AM on September 14, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm not mad at you, NPR News. Just disappointed.

Okay, I'm actually pretty fwickin mad. Not that you'd be able to tell, apparently.
posted by petebest at 11:26 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


The media fell for this Dr. Oz shit hook line and sinker, again. Trump dangles something substantive in front of them, and then yanks it away and instead gives them the same bullshit they've already seen, and that's all they're talking about today instead of the Newsweek story about his inseparable conflicts of interest. Which will be dead and gone by tomorrow, when the media will fall for the next shiny thing Trump dangles in front of their goldfish brain attention spans.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:27 AM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


The boutique shows that air on NPR are often not produced by NPR, like Market place and Science Friday.

I mean, if you want to get really technical, nothing airs on NPR. NPR programs air on local public radio affiliate stations, just like APM and PRI programs.
posted by biogeo at 11:28 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


@HillaryClinton: "10. How did the Russian mob boss who ran a criminal organization out of Trump Tower get a VIP pass to your Miss Universe pageant in Moscow?"

I read through the Newsweek article early this morning when it first came out, and when I saw this tweet I was a bit surprised because I didn't remember this detail.

Just looked through the article again and I don't see it. Do you? Was it there before and then edited out?

The Clinton team isn't making up a detail like that, both juicy and easily-falsifiable; they know they'd be ripped apart in the media for that. No, I think it's starting to dip into the oppo file to augment and amplify the coverage of Trump's numerous disqualifying actions and stances -- and pointing reporters to fruitful avenues for further investigation.

Gloves off.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:32 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Shooting an elephant isn't hunting; it's, at best, an extremely expensive single shot trip to the shooting range, except, you know, an actual elephant is lying there dead afterwards.
"Shooting an Elephant" is an essay by George Orwell, first published in the literary magazine New Writing in the autumn of 1936 and broadcast by the BBC Home Service on 12 October 1948. The essay describes the experience of the English narrator, possibly Orwell himself, called upon to shoot an aggressive elephant while working as a police officer in Burma. Because the locals expect him to do the job, he does so against his better judgment, his anguish increased by the elephant's slow and painful death. The story is regarded as a metaphor for British imperialism, and for Orwell's view that "when the white man turns tyrant it is his own freedom that he destroys."
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:33 AM on September 14, 2016 [15 favorites]


I can't remember if it was NPR or Politico which used the most amazing justification for reporting on legitimate Clinton activity as if it were suspicious: Because she is so unpopular and distrusted, it'd be wrong of us to not report on psuedostories that highlight her trust issues.

I wish this insane standard would be used elsewhere. Trump's doctor's note didn't mention his untreated syphilis! Is it because he's hiding his untreated syphilis? We have no evidence that untreated syphilis is destroying his brain, but a lot of people think that might be the case, so we have to ask the question. How is Trump going to put questions about his untreated syphilis to rest?
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:36 AM on September 14, 2016 [30 favorites]


Just in case it wasn't posted here yet, Daily Kos has a link to the latest Clinton ad about Trump's opinion of the American people. And an interesting article asserting the Clinton "deplorable" statement was no gaffe.
posted by bearwife at 11:38 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


So by his own admission Trump's overweight, never exercises and loves fast food...and despite all that, according to that original doctor's note he's still the healthiest individual to ever run for President? HE MUST BE SOME KIND OF SUPERHUMAN BEING
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:42 AM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also there's no way he's only 267. Easily three bills.
posted by strange chain at 11:45 AM on September 14, 2016


So by his own admission Trump's overweight, never exercises and loves fast food . . .

YES BUT HILLARY FALL DOWN EMAILS SO CONFUSING WHO PICK
posted by petebest at 11:50 AM on September 14, 2016 [30 favorites]


Meanwhile, on July 26 @realdonaldtrump tweeted: "For the record, I have ZERO investments in Russia."

Get it while it's hot screenshot it while it's live!
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:50 AM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Has anyone considered how fucking hard Chelsea Clinton is about to have to level up in the Living Up to Your Parents game? BOTH of her parents will have been President of the United States.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:51 AM on September 14, 2016 [58 favorites]


Also there's no way he's only 267. Easily three bills.

He's 6'2" and somewhat on the heavy side, but not obese. The 250-275 range sounds about right for him. If he were 300 he'd have a much heavier build.
posted by mightygodking at 11:53 AM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well, she has the option of going by her married name (as ultimately Trump's daughters will HAVE TO in order to avoid the shame)
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:53 AM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


There must be others things we can speculate on besides his weight.
posted by maxsparber at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


I'm 6'1" and have been losing weight slowly but steadily for two years and my doctor says I won't be out of the 'obese' range until I'm down to 250.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary's tweet storm is pure fire. All that shady stuff and they didn't have to mention Manafort once! Curious to see if Donald's camp responds.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:55 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's 6'2" and somewhat on the heavy side, but not obese. The 250-275 range sounds about right for him. If he were 300 he'd have a much heavier build.

I'm 6'1" and have been losing weight slowly but steadily for two years and my doctor says I won't be out of the 'obese' range until I'm down to 250
.

For 6'2 you need to be under 230 to be 'overweight' instead of 'obese.' Ask me how I know.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:56 AM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


There must be others things we can speculate on besides his weight.

Yeah, let's leave the armchair-diagnoses-based-on-Internet-photos to the Trumpists
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:57 AM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


So my doctor was just being nice?
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:57 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


No, now that he has come out 100% NON-transparent about his health, we can speculate about EVERYTHING that could possibly be wrong with him. Stroke, cancer, AIDS...
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Check it for yourself.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


It depends on the way your doctor is evaluating obese. I've dropped 50 pounds since January, just finally dipped below 215 and my trainer says I've dropped below obese finally. My doctor told me I did that 20 pounds ago. Listen to your doctor.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:02 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


[as the election wore on the derails would happen at the slightest provocation. changes in the wind, for instance, would send them on long-winded (excuse the pun!) meteorological meanderings, covering everything from the differences between a "wind" and a "breeze" and whether or not one's relative experience with a gust of air experienced in nature had any bearing on whether or not one could indeed comment on its nature of being.

of course we now know they would be driven to edges of sanity by the time the election arrived, but at this point they still seemed safely ensconsed in the sweet embrace of cogency]

- excerpt from "Notes on a Mega Thread" Dr AJ Cartwright, Journal Nature, October 2032
posted by Tevin at 12:03 PM on September 14, 2016 [50 favorites]


To bring this back on topic, Trump isn't at peak healthy weight and he'd feel better if he ate better and exercised more. Then he'd never shut up about it, though, so best if he remains unhealthy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


You can order wine at up to $140 per spoonful at the new Trump hotel in DC.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm not disputing the BMI indexes or anything.

I'm saying that your Dr. presumably examined you in person and then gave you medical advice based on their educated judgement. The situation here is that people are looking at pictures, inferring a person's weight as if they were a carnival sideshow 'Guess Your Weight' ripoff, then inferring from that what Trump's health is.

We'd all be furious if that were done to Clinton and rightly so.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


SInce when is a wind a gust of air???? the Robot Lords create wind with th eir gears any other assertion is harassment. Surrender Naturist scumdog
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think it's time we spent a hundred comments or so discussing whether the notion of "derail" accurately reflects its railway-inspired roots, and also whether using it is insensitive to victims of train accidents.
posted by biogeo at 12:09 PM on September 14, 2016 [40 favorites]


we can speculate about EVERYTHING

oh god could we not
posted by psoas at 12:12 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


take it to MeTa biogeo
posted by Tevin at 12:13 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it better to derail a thread to avoid 4 other, worse derails, or to not derail a thread at all?
posted by dis_integration at 12:13 PM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]


Yes. Yes, it is.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:14 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


The situation here is that people are looking at pictures, inferring a person's weight

I was under the impression that the 267 lb number was provided by Trump during his voluntary appearance on the Dr. Oz show
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:14 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


that's no derail it's a seldom used siding.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:14 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Siding? The election threads have more track changes than Grand Central Station.

And more threads than Egyptian cotton sheets.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:17 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is it better to derail a thread to avoid 4 other, worse derails, or to not derail a thread at all?

which track hits harambe
posted by beerperson at 12:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]


The Rude Pundit: To David Brooks, Clinton and Trump Are Equally Distrustful Even Though David Brooks's Examples Show They're Not:
Sometimes, one sentence tells you all you need to know. So focus on this one about Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton: "They have set the modern standards for withholding information — his not releasing tax and health records, her not holding regular news conferences or quickly disclosing her pneumonia diagnosis." Do you see the problem? Do you see the blatant fuckery at work there? It's like a balance scale where one side has a mouse and the other side has a skyscraper.

Let me lay it out for you like a bethonged Trump scorching his leathery flesh on a tanning bed. Clinton is being criticized for her lack of "regular" news conferences, which means she does have them, just not often enough for the writer's liking, and for not saying fast enough that she's sick. So she's done these things, yet she is being compared to Trump who, as the writer notes, has not released his tax returns or a legitimate health report. She hasn't done enough, and he hasn't done any, yet, according to the writer, they are equal in their shadiness. This is pretty much the way the mainstream media has covered this race.
posted by palindromic at 12:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [72 favorites]


Something needs to happen or we're just going to dissolve.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's already obvious Trump is only running for President for the money he could make. Maybe now we can add "so he can get decent government-provided medical care because he's unwilling to pay for it himself".

But if his health cover-up isn't a MAJOR story, then yes, the Press is in bed in a suite in Trump Tower. And no NYT endorsement can change that.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:24 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


The train thing is a boring way to sidetrack discussion here. You can do better. Bring back the Hillary wackos claiming that the FSB gave her pneumonia.
posted by indubitable at 12:28 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


> Siding? The election threads have more track changes than Grand Central Station.

*cracks knuckles, adjusts anorak, pushes glasses up*

So it's crucial when embarking on a rail-related thread detail to get your railway terminology correct. The facility you are likely thinking of is Grand Central Terminal, so called because all lines coming into the terminal end there. The distinction between a station and a terminal is important; a terminal, unlike a station, allows all passengers to reach all platforms without going up or down stairs.

this is where someone else comes in to discuss track changes in the Grand Central-42th Street NYC subway complex, which is (albeit rarely) referred to as "grand central station." How many track changes really happen there, though?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:29 PM on September 14, 2016 [18 favorites]


"gGrand cCentral 42ndstation Street." How many track changes really happen there, though?

There you go. LOTS of 'track changes' happening there now!
posted by kythuen at 12:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Metafilter: *cracks knuckles, adjusts anorak, pushes glasses up*
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:36 PM on September 14, 2016 [19 favorites]


Maybe you can't know what's in people's hearts, but you can know the reality that's in the actual world of reality, and you can compare it to what a person says.

Feh. I had my fill of the Deanna Troi Defense -- okay, what they said is objectively false, but maybe they believe it, so they aren't lying -- during the steady flow of dishonesty from George W. Bush's administration in its runup to the invasion of Iraq.
posted by Gelatin at 12:36 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


Click to accept change ✔ X
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:36 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


You can do better. Bring back the Hillary wackos claiming that the FSB gave her pneumonia.


Well, that was just silly cause if they'd give her anything it would be plutonium.
posted by asteria at 12:41 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, we're post-factual now. "That's just what I believe" is seen as a universal get-out-of-evidence-free-card. You hear people use this in every day conversation all the time. Someone makes an assertion, someone else tries to assert contrary evidence or make a logical counter-assertion, and instead of a debate occurring what happens is , "Well, that's just what I believe." And that's it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:43 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Geniuses, lower your voices.
posted by zachlipton at 12:43 PM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


Lisa Naumann at Sociological Images: Understanding Latinos for Trump:
My co-authors and I asked 323 U.S.-born Mexican Americans about their political ideology and socioeconomic status, the strength of their identification with Mexican and American cultures, and their attitudes toward acculturating to American culture. Those who strongly identified with Mexican culture were more likely to support the integration of both their Mexican and American identities into one unified identity, such as maintaining their own cultural traditions while also adapting to Anglo-American customs. These leaned more liberal. In contrast, those who held weak Mexican identification were more likely to support full assimilation to American culture. These were more moderate or conservative in their ideologies.

Their socioeconomic status also influenced their political ideology. Those with higher socioeconomic status were significantly less liberal, but this was most true for those participants who both belonged to higher social classes and had the weakest identification with Mexican culture.

This may explain why some Latinos aren’t put off by Trump’s anti-immigrant rhetoric. Latinos who support Trump may feel less strongly identified with their ethnic culture and have a stronger desire to identify with American culture. They probably also believe that other Latinos should assimilate fully into American culture and minimize ties or connections to their heritage culture. These beliefs comport with Trump’s message that immigrants need to “successfully assimilate” in order to join our country.
posted by palindromic at 12:45 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


A boring way to sidetrack, you say?
posted by biogeo at 12:51 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]




Meanwhile on fox news: On the downside, they ran their story about Colin Powell's email leak this morning with nary a mention of how harshly Powell blasted Trump.

On the upside, they have a big cover story at the moment which attempts to prove that Trump is not really mocking the disabled reporter in the famous video. To make their point, they present a compilation of Trump similarly mocking lots of other people.

Just in case the Clinton campaign needed any more clips for their collection of Trump using mockery instead of arguments over the years!
posted by TreeRooster at 12:52 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Do you see the problem? Do you see the blatant fuckery at work there? It's like a balance scale where one side has a mouse and the other side has a skyscraper.

Here's the basic problem: not only is the media as an industry structurally addicted to horserace he-said she-said soundbite microdevelopment coverage, a lot of the journalists participating in this (particularly, say, David Brooks) are basically too invested in their own identity and image as a balanced voice that they may not even be any longer capable of recognizing when they're weighing a skyscraper vs a mouse.

I get this temptation, I'm not just hardly immune to it, I'm prone to it. And that's one reason why I can see it.

A significant portion of the good faith press is even more prone to it than I am; I imagine part of it's a matter of professional habit, part of it is a matter of fear that they'll lose credibility if they stand up and actually dare to call the imbalance like it is.

There's a lot of mendacity that this approach has already failed to call out. Trump is a black swan of awful that makes the limits of that approach obvious.
posted by wildblueyonder at 12:54 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


Damn Powell, you cold.

Gabby Morrongiello: In which Colin Powell says Bill Clinton is "still dicking bimbos at home"
posted by PenDevil at 12:54 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Wow... I would hate to see what he had to say about "friends" he didn't respect....
posted by kythuen at 12:57 PM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


The facility you are likely thinking of is Grand Central Terminal, so called because all lines coming into the terminal end there.
So soon after the discussion regarding the health of Presidential Candidates, I just didn't want to use the word "Terminal".
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:59 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


ಠ_ಠ
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:59 PM on September 14, 2016


It's a huge mistake to imagine David Brooks argues anything in good faith. That Rude Pundit post was spot on.
posted by Gelatin at 1:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


David Brooks is closer to "the opinion of the New York Times" than any official Editorial.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:01 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


New CNN polls showing Trump up in Florida and Ohio. JCPL not looking good.
posted by stolyarova at 1:01 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Where are people getting these Powell email leaks? They're pure popcorn.
posted by dis_integration at 1:01 PM on September 14, 2016


The Great American Surrender: Donald Trump might win. And even if he doesn't, he's paved the way for the next tyrant.

This is why, even if you firmly believe that HRC can put it on cruise control and it'll still be a cake-walk, everyone should still be working as hard as they can to run up the score.

This needs to be white nationalism's last stand, or at least the last one for a good long while.
posted by VTX at 1:02 PM on September 14, 2016 [24 favorites]


Wow... I would hate to see what he had to say about "friends" he didn't respect....


You can have respect for Hilary despite having lost almost all of it for Bill. ASK ME HOW I KNOW!
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:03 PM on September 14, 2016 [25 favorites]


ASK ME HOW I KNOW!

is it... is it because they're secretly TWO SEPARATE HUMANS?
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [26 favorites]


Wonder where Colin Powell dicks bimbos

In the street? Real classy Colin
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]



Wonder where Colin Powell dicks bimbos

In the street? Real classy Colin


They invented hotels for a reason
posted by dis_integration at 1:06 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Strange that the people who bridled at the awful, terrible privacy violations of leaking DNC emails haven't showed up to scold us for discussing the leaked correspondence of a private citizen long out of the public spotlight. It's not as though Powell came out on a Sunday morning show to talk shit about Trump and Clinton.
posted by indubitable at 1:06 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Eh I feel bad for the dude. He's clearly a smart principled man. But then again he got us in that damn war, even if he was privately against it. So he can take a little public shaming I suppose.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Strange that the people who bridled at the awful, terrible privacy violations of leaking DNC emails haven't showed up to scold us for discussing the leaked correspondence of a private citizen long out of the public spotlight.

Not I. I think it's 100% gross and I'm really not interested in their contents.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:10 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


They invented hotels for a reason

Trump hotels surely, if you want to be extra classy.
posted by bongo_x at 1:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


people who bridled at the awful, terrible privacy violations of leaking DNC emails

you mean the straw people? they are indeed the worst!
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [19 favorites]


In his defense, the sentence actually ends "... with a husband still dicking bimbos at home (according to the NYP)".

It's a pull quote of a two-sentence hot take from a trove of emails, and though Colin Powell should have known better than to make a potentially embarrassing joke even as an irrelevant aside in a private email, let's keep our eye on the ball.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


> let's keep our eye on the ball.

as we certainly know bill was doing
posted by Tevin at 1:12 PM on September 14, 2016


Your map is overly optimistic. It's still got Nevada in blue, for example. Nevada may be red right now much less if it shifts 2 points to Trump. And what if it shifts 4 points to Trump which I think is likely in polls taken over the weekend and early this week?

I mean, it's not my map, it's PEC's - but sure, flip Nevada red. She's still at 273.

This is ignoring turnout of course because I'd prefer to rely on polls. Nevertheless, there seem to be two strategies for turnout: say something that excites a demographic that doesn't usually vote and hope that thrills them to the point that they figure out how to register, something they've never done before. Or hire a team of wonky data nerds to contact every single supporter multiple times to make sure they know how/when/where to vote. Obama did the latter and he outperformed expectations in 2008 and 2012. Clinton hired his team.
posted by one_bean at 1:13 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Clinton campaign will apparently be releasing more of HRC's health records this hour (according to Twitter).

This is another example of the frustrating double standards at play: Trump gets Dr. Spaceman and Dr. Oz to punt his health ball and HRC is releasing real, probably detailed health info that'll be scrutinized with a microscope.
posted by stolyarova at 1:14 PM on September 14, 2016 [29 favorites]


I'm sitting under my desk breathing into a paper bag right now. Going to the Hillary for Boston office to do some data entry and do my part to turn this around.
posted by pxe2000 at 1:14 PM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


> She's still at 273.

They only have to get close enough to steal it.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:15 PM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


It is possible that America is a place where the people as a whole have more bad in them than good, and likewise it is possible that we are about to do something genuinely terrible. It is possible that centuries of slavery followed by jim crow and sharecropping and halfhearted desegregation and full-throated resegregation and miseducation and the Action News format and FOX News propaganda have twisted up our culture beyond repair, that what was cancerous from the start has metastasized into a new and even more horrifying disorder, and it is possible that dicks-out Trumpian white supremacist misogynist idiocy is actually more popular here than any other ideology. It is possible that Donald Trump is in fact an accurate mirror of America.

This is the point where an action movie hero pauses and says "but" and then launches into a remix of the St. Crispin's Day speech. but... I got nothin'.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:15 PM on September 14, 2016 [44 favorites]


let's talk about trains.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:16 PM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'd just be satisfied if we could stop using "leaked" when we mean "hacked".

Reading a leaked email is one thing because someone who had proper access to the material (which almost always implies proper context to understand the information) felt it was necessary to reveal the information to the public, usually at some personal risk to themselves. This is not the case for hacked emails.

It's the difference between an investigative reporter doing undercover recording of an event, versus secretly installing spy cameras in someone's home. The footage should be treated differently and needs to be named properly according to its source.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:16 PM on September 14, 2016 [36 favorites]


I fucking hate all of this.
posted by mothershock at 1:16 PM on September 14, 2016 [26 favorites]


They invented hotels for a reason.

To be bus terminals for bed bugs ?
posted by y2karl at 1:17 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Here's the Pastor at the church in Flint, MI asking Trump to refrain from attacking @HillaryClinton in his remarks.

Good on you for stopping his rant, Pastor, but what did you expect when you invited him?
posted by stolyarova at 1:17 PM on September 14, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'd just be satisfied if we could stop using "leaked" when we mean "hacked".

I really prefer the term 'stolen'.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


I didn't think my respect level for our journalists could decline further, but Eichenwald did all the hard work for them, and they're talking about Dr. Oz

Imagine JFK being interviewed by Howdy Doody
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


Woah. Walking up to Trump and cutting him off takes freaking guts.
posted by zachlipton at 1:19 PM on September 14, 2016 [15 favorites]


Reading a leaked email is one thing because someone who had proper access to the material (which almost always implies proper context to understand the information) felt it was necessary to reveal the information to the public, usually at some personal risk to themselves.

Don't forget about phony "leaks" though; Cheney loved those
posted by thelonius at 1:19 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Imagine JFK being interviewed by Howdy Doody

look, enough with the clever nicknames, just call him Chuck Todd to avoid confusion
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:20 PM on September 14, 2016 [26 favorites]


...that thrills them to the point that they figure out how to register, something they've never done before.

At least here in Minnesota, this is accomplished by going to your polling place. You need an ID or other proof of residence (like a utility bill) to register, but not to vote. It varies from state to state but it's pretty easy in some places.
posted by VTX at 1:20 PM on September 14, 2016


Flint is still in trouble, he was probably thinking the visibility would help.

As for the hack, I'm salty that no one in the media mentions maybe it is better to have emails on a private server as opposed to in your AOL account.
posted by asteria at 1:20 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Metafilter: I fucking hate all of this.
posted by Tevin at 1:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


*she, it's even crazier that she invited him because she's a WoC. Why give him a platform?
posted by stolyarova at 1:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Here's some good news, local but of national interest to all decent humans: Arpaio Receives "No Confidence" Letter, and Faces First Hearing in Criminal Case October 11.

Couldn't happen to a nicer piece of deplorable scalp fungus.
posted by Superplin at 1:22 PM on September 14, 2016 [38 favorites]


Once again with the false equivalating by the Times, this time about Dr. Oz:
[Dr. Oz] has worked at some of New York’s top hospitals and has generally received praise for focusing on lifestyle choices and for his ability to explain medical concepts in an easy-to-grasp manner.

He has also been criticized for questionable assertions over the course of his television career, and sometimes speaks in the same type of hyperbole as Mr. Trump, which the medical profession has been known to reject.
So he's "generally received praise" by some anonymous ill-defined group of people, but is also "criticized" for hypoerbole. There's an actual BMJ study that concluded that more than half of the medical recommendations on his show were not supported by evidence. Surely that would be the kind of thing you might mention instead of vague assertions of "praise" and "criticism?"
posted by zachlipton at 1:22 PM on September 14, 2016 [45 favorites]


whatever the reason she invited him, she is a fucking boss for shutting that crap down
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


As for the hack, I'm salty that no one in the media mentions maybe it is better to have emails on a private server as opposed to in your AOL account.

I don't care where you store your emails. There's this thing called public key encryption and if you're even plausibly a target for hacking you should be using it in your communications. I don't care if it's an extra burden. If someone wants to email you and you're a bigshot like Colin Powell, they'll figure out how to configure GnuPG.
posted by dis_integration at 1:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


They invented hotels for a reason.

To be bus terminals for bed bugs?


Please, bus stations. There are stairs between the floors.
posted by jackbishop at 1:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [29 favorites]


She absolutely is a boss. Show of hands to fire Matt Lauer and hire her instead?
posted by stolyarova at 1:25 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can't remember if it was NPR or Politico which used the most amazing justification for reporting on legitimate Clinton activity as if it were suspicious: Because she is so unpopular and distrusted, it'd be wrong of us to not report on psuedostories that highlight her trust issues.

I'm torn on taking NPR off of my car stereo presets 'cause they have non-political stuff like "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" and local programming. It kinda feels like the point where MTV had to reserve a couple specific programs to show actual music videos, though.

But I took at least one concrete step to address my disdain for NPR's coverage: I have officially un-liked them on Facebook. So there!
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:25 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


New CNN polls showing Trump up in Florida and Ohio. JCPL not looking good.

Quinnipiac shows her up 5 nationally.
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:26 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


How recent is Quinnipiac?
posted by drezdn at 1:28 PM on September 14, 2016


2 things that stand out for me from the Dr. Oz nonsense.

Trump weighs 267* and Dr. Oz says he is slightly overweight. Slightly overweight. I can't even imagine the fire and brimstone my doctor would rain down on my head if I showed up with that much excess. I can say for certain he would not describe me as Slightly overweight.

The other thing is that Trump says he has not been hospitalized since he was 11. Which is interesting in light of the rumors going around about him being hospitalized for depression in the 90's. I don't need to revisit the discussion of his mental health but I sure would like to see some proof that he once again flat out lied.

*Since this whole interview was a set-up from the get go and Dr. Oz said he would only be discussing things that Trump approved of I don't see why we have to believe any of the medical information offered, certainly not his reported weight. That number may be self-reported.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


How recent is Quinnipiac?

Released today.

Of course, this is half what it was a couple of weeks ago.
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:30 PM on September 14, 2016


I'm salty that no one in the media mentions maybe it is better to have emails on a private server as opposed to in your AOL account.

nobody in the media knows what an email server actually is.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:31 PM on September 14, 2016 [18 favorites]


Bethel United Methodist Church, where that speech was given, has a policy of welcoming all people. Rev. Faith Green Timmons also shushed the hecklers that started up after she shushed Trump, so she's an equal opportunity shusher.

Seems like maybe she's one of those Christians that actually tries to be Christlike? Refreshing.
posted by palomar at 1:31 PM on September 14, 2016 [20 favorites]


New CNN polls showing Trump up in Florida and Ohio. JCPL not looking good.

Quinnipiac shows her up 5 nationally.


538 has Quinnipiac at +2 but adjusted to +4 for Clinton. YouGov also +2. But national polls aren't as important as state polls, and Trump has definitely taken the lead in Ohio and Florida, including a 10 point lead in a Google Consumer Surveys poll of Florida.
posted by dis_integration at 1:31 PM on September 14, 2016


You can have respect for Hilary despite having lost almost all of it for Bill

Yes, of course you can. I wasn't even thinking of the Bill parts of that email. Powell also dissed her personally on the basis of her age, then lobbed in "greed, unbridled ambition, and not transformational" on top of that.

But hey, she's a friend he respects, so...
posted by kythuen at 1:32 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Reverend Timmons gave a statement to the Detroit News:
“Trump’s presence at Bethel United Method in no way represents an endorsement of his candidacy,” Rev. Timmons said in a statement. “What we pray is that it conveys a final example of a faithful, intelligent, historically African-American congregation at work, serving and volunteering among the people of Flint as we work through this crisis of national impact. We cannot let this story drift from national attention for any reason.”
posted by palomar at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


Quinnipiac internals has 44% of 18-34 year old voting third party, Johnson 29, Stein 15; Clinton 31, Trump 26.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2016


HuffPo / 538 averages:

CO: Clinton +7 / Clinton +5
MI: Clinton +7 / Clinton +5
PA: Clinton +6 / Clinton +4
VA: Clinton +8 / Clinton +7
WI: Clinton +6 / Clinton +5

Swing the race another 4 points - that's about how much it's already shifted over the past 6 weeks after her post-convention bounce. She'd still win.
posted by one_bean at 1:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


The impression I'm getting from Colin Powell's hacked emails is that he's kind of a dick.
posted by palomar at 1:34 PM on September 14, 2016 [29 favorites]


Quinnipiac internals has 44% of 18-34 year old voting third party, Johnson 29, Stein 15; Clinton 31, Trump 26.
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\           _  \
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 `._,)     -',-')
   \/         ''/
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posted by tonycpsu at 1:35 PM on September 14, 2016 [38 favorites]


For a more objective argument about Trump's weight, you could use the woefully incomplete Cockeyed.com Photographic Height/Weight Chart. The fellow at 6'1", 270lbs looks close enough to a Trump body type that I couldn't care to fight over the 10% fudge factor that we all give ourselves.
posted by peeedro at 1:37 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kind of? Powell was involved in the My Lai cover up, was Reagan's national security advisor, undermined Clinton's attempts to allow gay service members to serve openly and helped bring about Don't Ask Don't Tell, and was the chief salesman for the Bush Administration's bill of goods.

Dick doesn't even begin to cover it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:38 PM on September 14, 2016 [36 favorites]


It's a trench war, albeit one with a lot more data about the territory. There's no knockout blow, only wearing away at Trump and at the elite media desperate to keep it a horserace.
posted by holgate at 1:40 PM on September 14, 2016


yes, I was engaging in what I believe might be called comic understatement
posted by palomar at 1:40 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


NBC: 7 Lingering Concerns About Trump's Family Leave Plan

1. How will Trump pay for it?
2. Will Trump's plan really help working families?
3. What about dads?
4. Would Congress support the measure?
5. Do the Trumps practice what they preach?
6. Are the Trumps correct that Hillary Clinton has ignored this issue?
7. Trump's and Clinton's plans still pale in comparison to the rest of the world.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:40 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Well, #6 is pretty clearly answered on her website, and unsurprisingly the answer is "no."
posted by Superplin at 1:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


> Quinnipiac internals has 44% of 18-34 year old voting third party, Johnson 29, Stein 15; Clinton 31, Trump 26.

The party system is crumbling. I'd argue that this is due to the shift from mass media as dominant to social media as dominant, but I'm sort of a media essentialist at heart.

God though I hope we can make it past this election. If we live through this, and if the two parties keep falling apart, maybe we can set up something decent in their place. If we live through this.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


Everyone relax!

Ben Collins: Wait, hold up: CNN's earth-rattling Ohio poll—Where Trump is up 4 points—DOESN'T POLL ANYBODY UNDER 50 YEARS OLD.

(Tweet deleted: I'm deleting that last tweet, since that poll didn't survey enough 18-49 year olds to meet a threshold, not straight up didn't poll them.)
posted by PenDevil at 1:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [19 favorites]


(I think the answer to most questions that begin, "Are the Trumps correct that..." is "no.")
posted by Superplin at 1:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


They forgot.
posted by petebest at 1:43 PM on September 14, 2016


Are the Trumps correct that Hillary Clinton has ignored this issue?

In a word, no. On Tuesday night, Ivanka Trump told Megyn Kelly on Fox News, "There is no policy on Hillary Clinton's website pertaining to any of these issues — childcare, elder care, or maternity leave, or paternity leave for that matter."


They know they can't fight her on policy so they just ignore that she says anything about it entirely.
posted by zutalors! at 1:43 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


PenDevil, that link appears to be broken.
posted by Superplin at 1:44 PM on September 14, 2016


That tweet got deleted because it wasn't that the didn't survey anyone under 50, but they didn't reach a high enough threshold to be able to report out the data in crosstab.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:46 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


The party system is crumbling.

ehhh let's see how many of those kids actually spend their lunch break going to the polls to punch a ticket for ol' Gary before we say that
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:46 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ben Collins: Wait, hold up: CNN's earth-rattling Ohio poll—Where Trump is up 4 points—DOESN'T POLL ANYBODY UNDER 50 YEARS OLD.

I didn't look at the breakdown of that one, but what about this Bloomberg poll that has Trump at 43 to Clinton 38 in a 4-way (Trump, Clinton, Johnson, Stein) ?

I do think the Fainting on West St has had a major impact and we'll see a Trump upswing until the debates.
posted by dis_integration at 1:46 PM on September 14, 2016


Ben Collins response:

I'm deleting that last tweet, since that poll didn't survey enough 18-49 year olds to meet a threshold, not straight up didn't poll them.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:47 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Now Politico is reporting that Trump's weight is 236.
NEW YORK — Donald Trump could stand to lose a few: 15 to 20 pounds to be precise.

That’s the weight loss goal the Republican nominee shared in a Wednesday interview with Dr. Mehmet Oz, according to several audience members who sat through the taping. Trump said he currently weighs 236 pounds, according to two audience members. (Other reports had audience members giving conflicting readouts, with some saying Trump put his weight at 267 pounds).


That would make more sense of the "slightly overweight" remark by Dr. Oz. Doesn't make a lot of visual sense (really? he only needs to lose 15 pounds?) but I've never met the man in person and I'm certainly not his doctor.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:49 PM on September 14, 2016



"To Brooks, Clinton and Trump are equally distrustful."

Oh really? What are they "distrustful" of?
posted by spitbull at 1:51 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


I've never met the man and I'm certainly not his doctor, but I am a citizen of my era, and on that basis alone I can confidently assert that he's got high blood pressure, borderline diabetes, flat feet, early signs of dementia, and a prostate the size of a grapefruit. I, personally, am outraged by Dr. Oz's complicity in this coverup!
posted by Sublimity at 1:51 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm looking forward to hearing about all the wacky dietary supplements Dr. Oz recommends to Donald, which I'm sure will be available in Trump Brand in a month or two.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:53 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


MotherJones: Trump Is Recruiting an Army of Poll Watchers. It's Even Worse Than It Sounds.
'Voter challenges "can play out in very ugly ways."'
Old story, updated take. Still scary.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:53 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Dont forget the bonespurs. And the scalp thing.
posted by petebest at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2016


Swing the race another 4 points - that's about how much it's already shifted over the past 6 weeks after her post-convention bounce. She'd still win.

I think you're dreaming. If you shift national polls by 4 points that doesn't mean that all state polls shift by 4 points. It usually means that heavy blue or red state shift less than 4 points and swing states shift more than 4 points. If the race were to swing 4 points from here Trump would win. We need to be reality based.

I expect and hope Clinton will clean up at the debate and this will be a bad memory. But lets not be Baghdad Bob. "There are no Trump Victories at the Baghdad Airport".
posted by Justinian at 1:54 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump said he currently weighs 236 pounds

Oh give me a fucking break. Put him on a fucking scale if you're gonna do this bullshit dog and pony show about his health in the first place.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:55 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Per camp, Clinton has a blood pressure of 100/70 and has had a normal mammogram and breast ultrasound [REAL]

How long until Chaffetz insists on personally chairing an investigation into HRC's prostate exam?
posted by stolyarova at 1:55 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


Quinnipiac internals has 44% of 18-34 year old voting third party, Johnson 29, Stein 15; Clinton 31, Trump 26.

Y'all have no idea what you're doing. I hope the rest of us can save the country from these guys.
posted by Justinian at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I DON'T CARE ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S WEIGHT
posted by agregoli at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [24 favorites]


I say "prostate" because we all know that she doesn't have one and the investigation would be smear-oriented political bull pucky, of course.
posted by stolyarova at 1:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lee Henderson: game-changer: Trump just promised if you vote for him "you will find out who really knocked down the World Trade Center."

If you don't vote for him, he is taking that information to the grave.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:57 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Please read the letter just released by HRC's physician (PDF) and compare it to (1) Dr. Bornstein's letter on Trump's health and (2) Trump's game show Dr. Oz performance.

Then go put your head under a pillow and weep for the future of the Republic.
posted by stolyarova at 1:59 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


Nerdwriter: How To Correct Donald Trump In Real Time
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:59 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm hoping the internals on the 18-34 year olds is off because the margin of error on subsamples like that can be very high. I don't believe they can be that naive. I'll buy 25% 3rd party voting... but 44% pls no
posted by Justinian at 1:59 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


I DON'T CARE ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S WEIGHT

Well, you should! I hear he gained it all eating the souls of the innocent.
posted by kythuen at 2:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Media Matters: Media Call Out Trump For Dodging Key Science Questions
Media are calling out GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump for providing vague and evasive answers to a series of science-related questions posed by a coalition of major science organizations, including a question about climate change. Trump has a long track record of denying the reality of climate change, but he was not asked about the topic during any of the 12 GOP presidential primary debates.
Summary of articles from different media outlets. Kinda cool that way.
posted by ZeusHumms at 2:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


> "Trump just promised if you vote for him 'you will find out who really knocked down the World Trade Center.'"

*headscratch*

Is he ... implying he will make a confession?
posted by kyrademon at 2:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Lee Henderson: game-changer: Trump just promised if you vote for him "you will find out who really knocked down the World Trade Center."

Yesterday a co-worker said he just wanted to see pictures of the plane hitting [one of] the towers, because all he's seen is the explosion, and wreckage hasn't turned up more than [something]. I was utterly baffled.

Then again, my mother-in-law doesn't believe the moon landing happened.

Smart people can believe crazy things ... *smh*
posted by filthy light thief at 2:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I DON'T CARE ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S WEIGHT

WELL, ALRIGHTY THEN, WHAT ABOUT THE HAIR: POLYESTER, HUMAN OR PARASITIC LIFEFORM OF UNCERTAIN ORIGIN ?
posted by y2karl at 2:01 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


ZeusHumms: Trump has a long track record of denying the reality

FTFY
posted by filthy light thief at 2:01 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yesterday a co-worker said he just wanted to see pictures of the plane hitting [one of] the towers, because all he's seen is the explosion, and wreckage hasn't turned up more than [something]. I was utterly baffled.

He's getting all mixed up. It's the pentagon that we're supposed to not have pictures of the wreckage.

Also steel beams!
posted by dis_integration at 2:02 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


But to his credit, reality doesn't really matter for a lot of people, especially when it's so uncomfortable calling someone who lies a, well you know, a liar.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:03 PM on September 14, 2016


dis_integration: He's getting all mixed up. It's the pentagon that we're supposed to not have pictures of the wreckage.

Oh, right. Maybe that's what he said? Either way, I wasn't really listening, and I don't really care about what he does or doesn't believe, as long as he does his work well.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2016


WELL, ALRIGHTY THEN, WHAT ABOUT THE HAIR: POLYESTER, HUMAN OR PARASITIC LIFEFORM OF UNCERTAIN ORIGIN ?

I heard Trump's hair is the Brood Queen of the Morgellons.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


But... there is video of the planes hitting the towers. Video. Hell, the second plane hit the towers on live television. Does he think there was a magic technology in 2001 that let a plane be CGId into hitting the tower on live television?
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


I was in trigonometry class when the high school intercoms came on and told everyone to turn on the classroom TVs. We saw the second plane hit in real time.
posted by stolyarova at 2:06 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


I DON'T CARE ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S WEIGHT

I don't care that much but I decided to google "Donald Trump's weight" just to see what came up. First entry is NYTimes: Donald Trump Reveals Checkup Has Him Weighing 267 Pounds, which if he only weighs 236 will be humiliating and I imagine (since he is so vain) quite maddening. Expect to see some tweetfire when he gets his phone back.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


JCPL: Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
posted by Justinian at 2:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [18 favorites]


> the second plane hit the towers on live television

But that was so long ago, it might as well be mythical?
(Seriously, 15 years - a 21 year old voter will have no memory of the event.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:09 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Nerdwriter: How To Correct Donald Trump In Real Time

Step 1: Donald Trump says something
Step 2: "BULLSHIT."
posted by jammer at 2:09 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


Trump just promised if you vote for him 'you will find out who really knocked down the World Trade Center.'

In February: "You may find it's the Saudis."
posted by kirkaracha at 2:10 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, Trump will now pick up 2 points in the polls from the "9/11 Truthers"... Next up, he'll steal the anti-vaxers from Stein. His snarky attack about Cruz's father and Lee Harvey Oswald won him the votes of the JFK Conspiracy crowd... If he embraces every crackpot theory out there, he'll easily get a majority of American voters...
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:12 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think you're dreaming. If you shift national polls by 4 points that doesn't mean that all state polls shift by 4 points. It usually means that heavy blue or red state shift less than 4 points and swing states shift more than 4 points. If the race were to swing 4 points from here Trump would win. We need to be reality based.

Even if that were true - it's not, swing states are swing states because they track the national average - she's currently up 6-8 points in the states she needs to win. I'm saying that even if the race were to shift an additional four points - which is incredibly unlikely given everything we have seen over the past year - she'd be at worst tied.
posted by one_bean at 2:12 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


NYTimes: The details about Mr. Trump’s weight were reported by NBC News, and confirmed by the person who attended the taping. They said that Dr. Oz, who focuses heavily on obesity, declared Mr. Trump “slightly overweight” (Mr. Trump is roughly 6 foot 2.) That height and weight of 267 pounds amount to a body mass index of more than 34.3, which the National Institutes of Health classifies as “obese.”

Politico: Asked if his doctors were concerned about his weight, Trump said he personally would like to lose 15 to 20 pounds. (At 6' 3" Trump would be considered overweight at 236 and obese at 267, according to the Centers for Disease Control's body mass index standards.)

Wait, so know we don't know his height or his weight? Maybe this is an example of one of those body doubles that the GOP keeps going on about?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:14 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'd feel a lot better if we had some more recent swing polls. Colorado, Iowa and Wisconsin haven't been polled in 2 weeks, and Virginia, Michigan and Pennsylvania have only had 1 poll in the last two weeks.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:18 PM on September 14, 2016


stolyarova, I laughed out loud at the HRC prostate exam thing.

Actually, I think it would be pretty plausible that Trump is covering up his health records because he's got some actually problematic and embarrassing issue, and certainly the prostate thing would be demographically on target. Not that I'm the shamelessly rumormongering sort, but it might also explain why he compulsively sleeps in one of his own properties, rather than at a hotel like any other person. Maybe he's got some prostate-related sleep incontinence issue, and since all of his domestic staff must be under nondisclosure agreements, they can't really let the world know that Donald doesn't stay dry at night.
posted by Sublimity at 2:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]




HRC's campaign is All Information, All The Time: Tim Kaine has a large-ish subcutaneous cyst on his torso, which seems like more information than we needed.

Click through for America's Dad's entire medical evaluation, which is a great example of how one should actually look.
posted by stolyarova at 2:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


Tis I! The last of the Evens! Alas! I am slain!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [15 favorites]


er, "one" as in "one medical evaluation letter," not as in "one America's Dad," but Kaine is pretty much Platonic Dad
posted by stolyarova at 2:22 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


ChurchHatesTucker: Nerdwriter: How To Correct Donald Trump In Real Time

Step 1: Donald Trump says something
Step 2: "BULLSHIT."


With a 70% mostly false, false and Pants On Fire false ratings, that's a pretty good chance he's lying, so you've got around the same chance of Hillary winning the the election, plus or minus some percentage points for both.

Back to the Nerdwriter video: it was cute, but the "how" was simply "put stuff on the screen, like a chryron or full-screen graphic." The unspoken detail: you have to have the correct facts on hand.

Luckily, that's really easy. At this point, Donald's tsunami of lies are pretty well documented. Start by reviewing his most recent bullshit, prepare handy graphics to counter said bullshit, and stop him with those graphics. Boom!

Real-time fact-checking shouldn't be shouting "quick, can an intern Google that?"
posted by filthy light thief at 2:22 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Whatever he weighs: Trump grimaces as he squeezes between a railing and a pillar on a water plant tour with utility's Jollisa McDay.

(Did they turn this tour into a video game level or something?)
posted by zachlipton at 2:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Stephen King likens Trump to Cthulhu. Cthulhu responds.
posted by zakur at 2:34 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Media Matters: Media Call Out Trump For Dodging Key Science Questions

Time:
The Republican nominee expressed skepticism at the need for the federal government to weigh in on a wide range of scientific issues, and dismissed outright certain policy concerns. In contrast, the Democratic candidate offered detailed responses on what role the government should play on even the least glamorous of issues.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:35 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Nerdwriter: How To Correct Donald Trump In Real Time

His other video from nine months ago, How Donald Trump Answers A Question, is worth viewing as it is pretty insightful.
posted by peeedro at 2:41 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Smart people can believe crazy things .

No, sorry, if you think moon landings were faked or no plane actually hit the WTC when there is a huge amount of corroborated first hand direct evidence thereof, you might also be crazy but you ain't smart.
posted by spitbull at 2:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


smart people do, say, and believe stupid things all the time. all. the. frickin. time.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:44 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


But... there is video of the planes hitting the towers. Video. Hell, the second plane hit the towers on live television. Does he think there was a magic technology in 2001 that let a plane be CGId into hitting the tower on live television?

Dude, once you can accept that 9/11 was a lie -- a conspiracy theory requiring millions of accomplices... sure, better CGI is not a problem
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:45 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


As I recall, Trump has referred to women he doesn't like as "fat pigs."

So I do care about his weight. I have no problem body shaming a man who body-shames women and the disabled all the time. Fuck him.
posted by spitbull at 2:49 PM on September 14, 2016 [32 favorites]


WaPo: A clue to the whereabouts of the 6-foot-tall-portrait of Donald Trump
On Wednesday, a new clue emerged. A former production manager for the portrait’s painter told The Post that he had shipped the painting — at the request of Trump’s wife Melania — to Trump National Golf Club, Westchester in Briarcliff Manor, N.Y.

Jody Young, the painter’s former manager, said that at the time he had spoken directly to Melania Trump about how the painting would be framed and displayed.

Her plan was “to hang it in either the boardroom or the conference room of the club,” Young said.

It is still unclear where the painting is now, or how long — if any time at all — it was on display at the private golf club. But tax experts say that an arrangement like the one described by Young could violate IRS rules.

If the painting is still hanging in the club, “it’s on display, in his business enterprise. It’s not on display in a charitable enterprise. It is arguably enhancing the experience of playing golf there,” said Marc Owens, the former director of the IRS division overseeing tax-exempt enterprises. “It’s not a charitable use. It is a non-charitable use.”
I wonder if it is still hanging there or if it has now been removed. Too bad the golf club would not let the reporter in to see for himself. Still, when it comes up in court maybe some golf club members can be subpoenaed.


Buzzfeed: RNC Chair: Clinton “Cold-Hearted” And “Cruel” For “Deplorables” Comment
“The irredeemable part, to me, is even more offensive,” Priebus told Gallagher. “There’s no such thing as irredeemable. Only a cold-hearted person, cruel person would believe [that]. I can go on and on.”

Thinking “that someone else is irredeemable is a pathetic, nasty view that I do not want to be associated with in any way,” Priebus said.
Odd that he is choking on the irredeemable. He could just say that nobody who supports Trump is a homophobe or a racist or a xenophobe. Irredeemable has a meaning in Christian theology so I think this isn't a refutation of the specifics but rather a way to paint Clinton as anti-religious. Jesus is the redeemer-- so anyone who believes in him is redeemed, even bigots and haters.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:51 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's kind of gauche to tell a fellow MeFite that a member of their family is stupid even if you really, really believe it to be true.
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:52 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I challenge your definition of "smart people" then ... And of what a "stupid thing" might be.

Plenty of smart people believe in things that can't be proven one way or the other (hi God!) or are willing to say they believe anything for money. Actually believing things that are definitely provably wrong on their face is a whole other thing. "Crazy" and "obviously provably untrue" are not quite the same thing. Some people have selective stupidity (Linus Pauling with vitamin C) but most people who say stupid things are stupid.
posted by spitbull at 2:53 PM on September 14, 2016


If the painting is still hanging in the club, “it’s on display, in his business enterprise. It’s not on display in a charitable enterprise. It is arguably enhancing the experience of playing golf there,” said Marc Owens, the former director of the IRS division overseeing tax-exempt enterprises. “It’s not a charitable use. It is a non-charitable use.”
What a strange world we live in, where the question of whether this charitable donation was a misuse of funds could well come down to a debate over whether a 6-foot-tall portrait of Donald Trump is an enhancement to the experience of playing golf. I imagine there's a defense there: "that old thing? It looks terrible. Heck, we could charge $100/month more in membership dues if our members didn't have to look at that Cheeto all the time."
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


all I know is I save myself a whole lot of cognitive dissonance by telling myself that smart and stupid aren't opposite points on a spectrum, they're separate lines that run parallel
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


How about, let's call ideas stupid, not people. Because calling people stupid might make us feel good in the moment, but it also indicates that we are assholes like Trump.
posted by palomar at 2:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


"It is arguably enhancing the experience of playing golf there"

Arguably.

"It’s not a charitable use. It is a non-charitable use."

I'll say.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


There is a difference between smart and educated.
posted by Mitheral at 3:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


So the 6 foot tall painting is actually a bit smaller than life size?
posted by soelo at 3:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Every person on the planet is a giant mixed bag of chemical processes that take the form of thoughts and beliefs and ideas; maybe let's acknowledge it's a goddam mess up there and there's a lot more use in talking about any given idea and the context around it than bucketing folks into a No True Smartsman system based on friendliness to any given one of them.
posted by cortex at 3:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


Patronize me all you like. I will continue to believe some people are stupid, not just their ideas.
posted by spitbull at 3:01 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


It is still unclear where the painting is now, or how long — if any time at all — it was on display at the private golf club. But tax experts say that an arrangement like the one described by Young could violate IRS rules.

So another angle of the Trump Foundation/painting issue is that it may have been a sales and use tax avoidance scheme on top of a seem-like-a-charitable-person scheme. Depends on whether the foundation has a sales tax exemption and whether they used it in this case. But avoiding sales tax on art purchases has been a really big issue in NYS for a number of years -- the state was even (at one point and possibly still) going through issues of Town & Country (and other mags where rich people showed off their houses) to find paintings that were supposed to have been shipped out of state and then send the people requests for proof of payment of sales tax; there was also a big settlement recently with the Gagosian Gallery for aiding in avoidance schemes.
posted by melissasaurus at 3:03 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


cool, i think it's contributing to the lowering of discourse in general but you do you. jenniferlawrencethumbsup.gif
posted by palomar at 3:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


From @theshrillest - The Deplorable Basket: Declaiming who is and isn't racist is a parlor game we don't have time for
posted by naju at 3:05 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


It is hard to say how it could have ever been put to charitable use-- other than being sold and the money given to a charity. It should have never been paid for by Trump Foundation money if they planned to keep it. This is what I find so strange about Trump, billionaire. He could easily have written a personal check for $20,000 and nobody would be able to criticize him-- the original charity gets the money, the Trumps get to do whatever they want with the painting. The really odd thing about this story is that Melania won the bidding war at $10,000 and at the request of the charity doubled the amount. So she doubled the amount of money that the Foundation paid just so she could have a painting which she apparently didn't like all that much. I guess it would have been too humiliating for the painting not to be sold.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:06 PM on September 14, 2016


Right, lets not waste our energy deciding who is a racist. All of Trump's supporters can fairly and accurately be labelled "enablers of racism" without looking into their hearts.
posted by Justinian at 3:08 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


Too piggyback on the 'some people are stupid' derail, apparently some people are owning up to being deplorable and proudly advertising it.
posted by zakur at 3:10 PM on September 14, 2016


cool, i think it's contributing to the lowering of discourse

Inevitable when discussing Trump.
posted by asteria at 3:10 PM on September 14, 2016


I'm at the phone bank. Two British people are here because of Brexit. There's also an older woman who said "I don't like her, but I don't have to. She's the most qualified."
posted by pxe2000 at 3:12 PM on September 14, 2016 [38 favorites]


I have a really hard time getting worried over polls. It's not because I don't believe in the mathematical aspect of it, because the statistics are relatively straightforward, but the thing is that there is also a set of totally subjective variables, represented in the infamous crosstabs, that breakdown the poll's population, and that varies, sometimes widely, between pollsters and even individual polls. This means that it's difficult to meaningfully compare two given polls and that the polling aggregators such as 538 have to normalize their data to correct for this, which means that any errors introduced at that stage in the initial polls are going to be echoed and potentially amplified in the aggregate. You can demonstrate the correct application of statistics, but these crosstab variables that define the poll populations are the key to it all and they are also the primary subjective aspect of the whole thing. If a certain population turns out unexpectedly, the outcome can flip in an instant, so what the polls really seem to reflect, to me, is what guesses the pollsters can justify about voting populations plus opinion snapshots of those populations at that moment. Nate Silver and others have made their name for coming up with good guesses in the past, but what if their algorithms are more like quantitative financial strategies and less like mathematical descriptions of systems of nature? You can develop a world-beating quant algo that makes you richer than anyone only to watch it fail as the world changes around it. This seems to be the situation of the pollsters and poll aggregators lately, so I'm ultimately left without much concern for them. Of course, if not polls, what else?
posted by feloniousmonk at 3:15 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm a little worried what the ETs are going to think of us when they get videos of Trump in a few years or whenever. It might be an ironic reinterpretation of the "nuke them from orbit. just to be sure" moment.
posted by angrycat at 3:19 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


I don't care about Trump's weight because it has nothing to do with anything. These threads are starting to acquire a pointless sleeze about them. I tune in because the news here is usually better than anywhere, but I think I'm going to take a long break if things like Trump's weight last dozens of comments. I dunno. I think MeFi is better than this pettiness.
posted by agregoli at 3:20 PM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]


I could slam Trump all day long and sleep like a baby at night. Because it's Trump.
posted by asteria at 3:26 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Granted, I'm a tiny bit not on the aliens' side but I understand where they're coming from.
posted by angrycat at 3:28 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


That 18-34 year old 44% for third party internal has me pissed. I will never get people who jumped from Sanders to Johnson. If it was all about principles, positions, and policy, what fucking principles, positions, and policies do they support? Because Sanders and Johnson are pretty damn oppositional on most fronts.
posted by defenestration at 3:29 PM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]



I don't care about Trump's weight because it has nothing to do with anything.


I mean this is just a thing to say. It's more about the context.Part of the problem is that everything that has been pretty standard practice in previous campaigns - taxes, releasing health records, security briefings is irregular, fraudulent, suspect, etc in the Trump campaign.

Trump released a ridiculous health record that said he was the healthiest person ever to run for President, and then his aim at transparency is to go on Dr Oz and give out most likely more incorrect information and little of it.
posted by zutalors! at 3:31 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


I saw a Prius here in Northern Nevada the other day with the license plate RUNPAUL, a slew of old Ron Paul stickers, and a bunch of brand spanking new Trump stickers on it.

One hint what unites those two politicians: it starts with W and ends with HITE SUPREMACY.
posted by stolyarova at 3:32 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sure, but a lot of Ron Paul supporters were Infowars nuts, and Ron Paul is a fucking racist as well.

Sanders to Johnson—I just don't see how it maps if someone claims they are all about being principled and supporting specific policies and having their vote represent their ideology or something.
posted by defenestration at 3:34 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Not to get mixed up in the dark arts of unskewing or anything, but I will be astonished if our zany third-party friends perform as well at the polls as they do in the, uh, polls.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:37 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm watching World News Tonight (ABC evening news) and it's... not making me too angry? Notes matter-of-factly that Clinton is said to be recovering well, pivots to Trump's not releasing his records, now they're on the Colin hacks -- focusing on the anti-Trump emails so far.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:37 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


So basically the tl;dr on the Latinos for Trump study was basically that some people will always be "fuck you, I got mine" no matter what.
posted by TwoStride at 3:38 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


"It is possible that America is a place where the people as a whole have more bad in them than good, and likewise it is possible that we are about to do something genuinely terrible."

You're an American, right? Do you feel this bleak about your own morality and actions? Are you worried that "Donald Trump is in fact an accurate mirror of" yourself?

I doubt it. In which case, why be so insistent that those other people, to whom you apparently concede the American identity, are fundamentally bad? Why set up a choice between being American and being good?

It's not like you have to. The DNC did a great job presenting a narrative of an America that, historically and today, has rejected slavery and segregation and bigotry and tried to be better than its ancestors, generation after generation. Embracing love, not hate, and making it an American value.

But if you tell everyone "Either you're anti-American or you're eeevil (and by the way I have some very idiosyncratic ideas about evil)"... like, do you expect them all to make the same choice there?
posted by Rangi at 3:40 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think Trump supporters would be well-served to learn some hard data on their candidate so they can be convinced he is an imperfect human being, not a Supreme Leader that doesn't have to urinate or defecate.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:40 PM on September 14, 2016


oh they just did the anti-Clinton bits -- but I think it was fair (didn't include the irrelevant allegations about her husband).
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:40 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


That 18-34 year old 44% for third party internal has me pissed. I will never get people who jumped from Sanders to Johnson. If it was all about principles, positions, and policy, what fucking principles, positions, and policies do they support?

So, Occam's Razor would then suggest that it's not about principles, positions, or policy. It's something else. Something else. Something that Bernie has, and Gary has, but Hil doesn't have. Something that also starts with P. What is it? What could it be? Why would they just be voting for any old Johnson like that? Hmmm....
posted by The Bellman at 3:40 PM on September 14, 2016 [29 favorites]


Porcupines, The Bellman, right?
posted by Tevin at 3:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Something that Bernie has, and Gary has, but Hil doesn't have. Something that also starts with P. What is it? What could it be? Why would they just be voting for any old Johnson like that?

can we please stop doing this yet again

penis does not necessarily equal man
posted by burgerrr at 3:43 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


Priuses!
posted by stolyarova at 3:44 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


Chopping all those "welfare queens" off the rolls. The ones that they just know are there,

I'm a bit sore on this point right now, because a good friend of mine, who is very disabled, just heard that her food stamp benefits are PERMANENTLY revoked. The reason? Her rent was cut by $8/month and they are claiming that she never notified the SNAP people about this momentous change in her monthly budget so that they could recalibrate her food stamp eligibility. Their verdict was "fraud over $8/month; lifetime benefit revocation".

So in short, over $8/month they have put her in a position where she is not sure where her food is going to come from for the rest of her life.

She is completely unable to work and has no family.

$8/month - we're really to the Dickensian level of horror here in America now. And all over vague fear of "welfare queens" . . . .
posted by flug at 3:45 PM on September 14, 2016 [71 favorites]


Perfidy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:45 PM on September 14, 2016


This seems to be the situation of the pollsters and poll aggregators lately, so I'm ultimately left without much concern for them. Of course, if not polls, what else?

You know what they usually call the side that doesn't have much concern about troubling polls because the electorate is totally gonna turn out for them in a different fashion than the pollsters suggest? They call them the losers.
posted by Justinian at 3:47 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


They call them the losers.

Catchy and I feel your panic, but I'm not talking about some "unskewed polls" stuff, I'm pointing out that it's not as precise a measurement tool as everyone thinks it is.
posted by feloniousmonk at 3:55 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


When I left my volunteer shift, one woman's mentioned the polls. We were calling NJ tonight, and I think everyone there is committed to more shifts.

My contract ends in another two weeks, and I will be at the HFA office every day while I look for a job.
posted by pxe2000 at 3:57 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


So, Occam's Razor would then suggest that it's not about principles, positions, or policy. It's something else. Something else.

Yes, yes, everyone who is not voting exactly how you personally would vote cannot possibly be voting based on principles, positions, or policy, but rather on sexism, racism, or stupidity. We've made Occam's Razor extremely convenient for us, apparently.
posted by naju at 4:02 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't think that anyone who goes from supporting Bernie to voting for Gary Johnson is voting on principles, positions or policy. I can't say what they are voting on, but those two candidates don't share a lot of policy positions.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:05 PM on September 14, 2016 [26 favorites]


You're an American, right? Do you feel this bleak about your own morality and actions? Are you worried that "Donald Trump is in fact an accurate mirror of" yourself?

I doubt it. In which case, why be so insistent that those other people, to whom you apparently concede the American identity, are fundamentally bad? Why set up a choice between being American and being good?


Myself? I'm mostly feckless. That's my distinguishing quality.

I don't know whether or not Trump is an accurate mirror of the nation I happen to live in. We may, as a whole, be that far gone. Or we might be slightly less than half of us that far gone, in which case we'll be dodging a bullet in November.

I'm not sure what the American identity is, so I can't make any claims about it. Really, use of the word "the" for American identity seems dodgy in the first place. My suspicion, to clarify, isn't that "the" American identity is fundamentally bad. Rather, my suspicion is that on the whole white supremacist views are still dominant in America, like they've been, more or less, since Europeans started landing here. Note that this is an argument about a population, rather than an argument about any particular individual, and note that this suspicion is derived from contingent facts — specifically, the contingent fact that a bunch of people sure like that Trump guy — rather than first principles.

Is America on the whole a decent country? Right now we don't know for sure. All we know is that an open white supremacist, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever as a human being, a man who wears his fragile, blustering inadequacy on his sleeve, has an outside shot of becoming President.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:06 PM on September 14, 2016 [22 favorites]


Yes, yes, everyone who is not voting exactly how you personally would vote cannot possibly be voting based on principles, positions, or policy, but rather on sexism, racism, or stupidity. We've made Occam's Razor extremely convenient for us, apparently.

And Strawmen extremely convenient for you, apparently.
posted by zakur at 4:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't think that anyone who goes from supporting Bernie to voting for Gary Johnson is voting on principles, positions or policy.

It certainly seems arbitrary. And capricious.
posted by Roommate at 4:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Err, to be fair I think the person you're responding to naju was specifically calling out Sanders->Johnson voter conversions. While I guess we can't really say why someone would switch their vote like that, it's kind of .. not very believable it's motivated by informed judgement of relevant policy positions. If a Sanders supporting friend told me they were voting for Johnson I would probably want to have a pretty intense conversation about it (if I intended to stay friends).
posted by R343L at 4:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


I don't think that anyone who goes from supporting Bernie to voting for Gary Johnson is voting on principles, positions or policy.

They self-identify as being alienated from the political system and don't want to be seen supporting a "mainstream" candidate.
posted by argybarg at 4:08 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


I don't think that anyone who goes from supporting Bernie to voting for Gary Johnson is voting on principles, positions or policy. I can't say what they are voting on, but those two candidates don't share a lot of policy positions.

Of the Bernie folks I know who are even considering Johnson, the most common reason by far is his anti-interventionist foreign policy. Among other things, Johnson is campaigning on cutting the military budget by 43% and returning it to 2003 levels.
posted by dialetheia at 4:09 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


Josh Marshall: Some Thoughts on the Polls For Dems in Mid-Freak-Out:
It's particularly disquieting from a Democratic perspective to see Trump now holding apparent leads, albeit small ones, in Florida and Ohio. As we know, from sad history, winning Florida and Ohio (by whatever means) made George W. Bush president twice.

But there are some significant differences between then and now. In the intervening years, there have been significant changes in the electoral map which gave Democrats very plausible paths to victory even if they did lose both Florida and Ohio. The key is their upper south beachhead in Virginia and North Carolina as well as a strong hold on Colorado. There are other states that are in the mix too. But those are the big three. The upshot is that Democrats can very plausibly lose those two states and still win the election. That said, it would create a dramatically closer race. And it's a very big deal if Trump opens up real leads there.

Scared yet?

Let's talk a little more.
posted by palindromic at 4:10 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also, NSA surveillance and massive profiling/4th amendment violations by the TSA.
posted by stolyarova at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes, yes, everyone who is not voting exactly how you personally would vote cannot possibly be voting based on principles, positions, or policy, but rather on sexism, racism, or stupidity. We've made Occam's Razor extremely convenient for us, apparently.

Sure, but then what are the principles, positions, or polices that conceivably back someone who supports both Sanders and Johnson? How does someone back both a Democratic Socialist who wants to expand the safety net with new government programs and a Libertarian who wants to slash the size of the government?
posted by zachlipton at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


The best reason I can think of to go Sanders->Johnson is that tactical support for the Libertarian party may in the long run serve to split the right. This could be a more effective means of freeing up space on the left than directly supporting a left party.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


the side that doesn't have much concern about troubling polls

Sure, the race has tightened. No one is denying that. But Clinton has consistently polled 2-3% below Trump, with bumps when she said something particularly stupid or disqualifying, and the numbers dip down nearly to even if he makes a bit of a gaffe.

He'll get it done, though. He has the ground game of a seasoned campaigner with a whole party apparatus behind him, and she's still alienated from her new political bedfellows, the congressional leadership of her own party can barely stop from running away in terror when her name is mentioned.

/EvilOppositeWorld

It will be okay. Breathe.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't think that anyone who goes from supporting Bernie to voting for Gary Johnson is voting on principles, positions or policy. I can't say what they are voting on, but those two candidates don't share a lot of policy positions.

Listening to what they say about why they're voting how they're voting would be a start, I think. I'd imagine it has something to do with some mixture of third party principles, being libertarian (yes, there were plenty of Libertarians who were backing Sanders), or similar. Crazy, I know!
posted by naju at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


But is that in line with Sanders's foreign policy proposals? If I recall, it is not, but I could be wrong.
posted by defenestration at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2016


About that Quin poll:

"When calling landlines interviewers ask to speak with the adult member of the household having the next birthday." (PDF)

This is going to skew the 18-34 result toward indies, because it skews away from those living with their parents or a partner. A 19-year-old living with 2 parents has a 1-in-3 chance of being the poll target; one living in an apartment alone is a 100% hit. This poll has a better chance of talking to millennials who've rejected "traditional wisdom," or those who don't have a safety net and are looking for innovative answers to the complex problems they face.

"We use screen questions to determine likely voters. ... In past elections, we have used questions measuring intention to vote, attention to the campaign, past voting behavior, and interest in politics to identify who is likely vote."

Note: they do not seem to ask if someone is actually registered.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


If a Sanders supporting friend told me they were voting for Johnson I would probably want to have a pretty intense conversation about it (if I intended to stay friends).

"intense conversation with a Sanders->Johnson supporter" sounds like a circle of Dante's Hell somewhere between the tornadoes of stinging flies and the lake where they bury you in ice up to your eyeballs
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:12 PM on September 14, 2016 [21 favorites]


but also "support entryism into the party closest to your views when possible, and ratfucking for the party farther from your views when necessary" is sort of a needlessly complicated game to play, and it only works if you play it in a big group.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:13 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Eh. If you can't have a frank conversation with a friend then who can you? But I'm a woman who knows all too well that seemingly nice men have all kinds of unexamined beliefs about women (I guess in my mind I was imagining a male friend). If I didn't understand why they would make such an inexplicable decision, I would wonder how often they look at me or other women and are unconsciously thinking (and maybe acting on) sexist beliefs.
posted by R343L at 4:15 PM on September 14, 2016


Considering Sanders's platform, I didn't understand his Libertarian support either.
posted by defenestration at 4:15 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Crazy, I know!
I wouldn't say crazy. I would say somewhere at the intersection of misinformed, insincere and disingenuous.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:16 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Social liberalism crossover.
posted by stolyarova at 4:16 PM on September 14, 2016


These threads are getting worse. Mods, feel free to be more aggressive.

The election of 2016
Can we get this over with?
PLEASE?


[America]
every scandal has an equal and opposite reaction
when states go red do cherry shots, it's the flavor of passion
when states go blue it's curacao, an old east coast fashion
[press]
and if the wrong bottle runs out don't forget to stock up on rations

[Clinton]
Trump's very attractive in the south, I don't like his chances
He's claimed each side of each question, don't ask him or he dances
They call him a criminal catch it on video the accusation glances
They say I'm shady but at least I know my facts and stances

The problem is business seems a more trustworthy industry (Ha!)
The money in politics comes from business but nobody wants to see
[America]
So what do I have in mind?
Who knows? I've just gotta see how this episode of news goes.

[world]
Episode? whaaaaaaaat?

It might be nice
it might be nice
to be too drunk to read the news
[Everyone]
it might be nice
it might be nice
to be too drunk to read the news

[Clinton]
Talk less! Her!
Smile more! Her!
They'll tell you what they think you're against and for! Her!
Shake hands with him! Her!
Charm her! Her!
It's 2016, ladies tell your families "I'm with her!"

[America]
I don't like Johnson
Well he's bad with maps, they're kind of important
And Stein?
Arrested for vandalism, it's a little sordid
And Egg McMuffin
Who? The other guy, in just a few states
Deez Nuts/Harambe 2016, I bet his policy's great!

[world]
Dear America, your fellow countries would all like to know how you'll be voting
[America]
The news is so bleak
[world]
Dear America, we need to know how many fallout shelters we'll be needing
[America]
I need another drink

[Press]
Him or her!
We know! Yeah right! It's lose lose!
Him or her!
But if you had to choose?

[world]
Dear America, Johnson and Stein don't stand a chance so which way are you voting?

[America]
Well if it isn't Her,
She's created quite a stir
[Trump]
She's got people going door to door
Openly campaigning? Without a plane it looks too draining.

[America]
But is there anything she wouldn't do?
To chase her dreams?
Ugh. Pass the brew.

[world]
If you had to choose, if you had to choose
It's still close!
If you had to choose, if you had to choose
It's up to the press!
If you had to choose, if you had to choose
It's up to America!
If you had to choose, if you had to choose
Him or her? Him or her?

[America]
The world is asking to hear my voice!
The country is facing a terrible choice
And if you were to ask me who I'd promote?
I'll probably sleep in and forget to vote.
[World]
Oh.
[Press]
I've never agreed with clinton once!
Accused her on many unprintable fronts
but when all is said and all is done
She has beliefs, He has none

[Clinton]
Well I'll be damned, well I'll be damned
The press is on our side
Well I'll be damned, well I'll be damned
we're still barely squeaking by

[Press]
Congrats on a race well run, I look forward to our partnership
[Clinton]
Partnership?
[Press]
You say things, we report them. Fair and balanced.
[Clinton]
Do you hear this guy? I get a cough and you run full-page stories about parkinson's. This is why I don't tell you shit off the cuff. At least you know I've ever met a practicing doctor. And you know why? Because I'm a professional.

That song's a lot longer than I thought when I started writing this comment.
posted by fomhar at 4:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [33 favorites]


Listening to what they say about why they're voting how they're voting would be a start, I think. I'd imagine it has something to do with some mixture of third party principles, being libertarian (yes, there were plenty of Libertarians who were backing Sanders), or similar. Crazy, I know!

Libertarians by what definition? If you support a candidate who wants to significantly raise taxes, more than double the minimum wage, spend billions on free higher education, spend billions on government infrastructure, restrict how money can be spent in support of political speech, and offer government-funded health care to everyone, you are many things, but you are by no reasonable standard a Libertarian.

I'm not saying every Sanders->Johnson supporter is acting entirely out of sexism. Contrarianism is a thing to be sure. But they aren't Libertarians.
posted by zachlipton at 4:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Did I just pick up correctly from PBS Newshour that Trump is proposing tax-free nannies for people making under a half-million a year, but no paid leave for any father? Surely there will be a vast revolt against Trump from the MRAs.
posted by XMLicious at 4:19 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Are children required to take advantage of this tax-free nanny offer?
Dan: I like nannies.
Casey: I know.
Dan: I'm thinking of getting one for myself.
--Sports Night, "What Kind of Day Has it Been"
posted by zachlipton at 4:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't care about Trump's weight because it has nothing to do with anything. These threads are starting to acquire a pointless sleeze about them. I tune in because the news here is usually better than anywhere, but I think I'm going to take a long break if things like Trump's weight last dozens of comments. I dunno. I think MeFi is better than this pettiness.
posted by agregoli at 6:20 PM on September 14

I've read every comment in every election thread since about...February or so. There is a lot less acrimony and bitterness since the Sanders. Vs. Clinton thing worked itself out. As to sleezeness, some days are more sleezy than others depending on your point of view. The discussion about Melania's legal status really got some members up in arms. Trump's hair, Trump's spray tan, and Trump's weight have made minor appearances before with some people pleading with others to leave his appearance out of it. We are only focused on his weight today because of the Oz appearance when it was announced to the public and was picked up by the press. Sorry if that squicks you out.

I personally don't care for the poll discussions or the all the stories about friends and family and why they are voting for Trump. I just scroll through that stuff. We have a lot of people contributing and a lot of different ideas to bring to the table. Not every comment is going to be interesting to me nor every topic and I don't expect it to.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


ugh I could use a nanny to help me with my stress eating

seriously she could just slap shit out of my hand
posted by stolyarova at 4:24 PM on September 14, 2016 [25 favorites]


nrrrrrgllllllleh!!!*

Chris Matthews asks a guest (doctor?) what's missing from the candidates' health reports. The doctor says very little from Clinton's, almost everything from Trump's.

Matthews then follows up with a question that implies Clinton is likely to have a blood clot a day for the rest of her life, right? Right? RIGHT, DOC?????

* yes. murloc rage. this is what i've come to.
posted by kythuen at 4:24 PM on September 14, 2016 [26 favorites]


A friend invited me to sign up to be a deputy voter registrar, so I did. It only took about 45 mins, and by the end of the session, they convinced me that registering people to vote could make a real difference. They specifically talked about how to reach out to the homeless and those with a criminal record who don't know that they have the right to vote (in my state at least). It's more than getting another body in the polls; it's also about reaffirming the citizenship of those who thought they had been excluded from the citizenry in every way.

I highly encourage finding out how to do it in your area!
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:26 PM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


We are now back at the point where the length of the ongoing election thread chokes my phone nearly to death. See you folks in the next one!
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:28 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


What do Sanders and Johnson have in common? (Besides THAT) Well, there was never a chance either could win the election, so you could safely vote for them without having to feel responsible for what happens later.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:30 PM on September 14, 2016 [15 favorites]


Surely there will be a vast revolt against Trump from the MRAs.

Not necessarily. One time I peeped in an MRA forum out of curiosity and one thing that surprised me was that they ideally want women to not have to care for children because that means that they as men can get away from any responsibility they might have as fathers. It's not something they go out of their way to achieve (they all acted as if any woman in the U.S. could easily get an abortion) but they do appreciate anything that lessens responsibility for their actions.
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:31 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I've read every comment in every election thread since about...February or so

I just went back through my comments to see when I first made a comment in an election 2016 thread. It was October. Cripes! I can't even......
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


fomhar, is that a parody of a song from that hit musical from last year that everyone went so gaga over—American Psycho?
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:35 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Not necessarily. One time I peeped in an MRA forum out of curiosity and one thing that surprised me was that they ideally want women to not have to care for children

I didn't mean that MRAs would object to tax-free childcare, but to mothers getting paid family leave while fathers do not.
posted by XMLicious at 4:35 PM on September 14, 2016


What do Sanders and Johnson have in common? (Besides THAT) Well, there was never a chance either could win the election, so you could safely vote for them without having to feel responsible for what happens later.

I don't think that's fair. Supporting a candidate in the primary who has little chance of winning is manifestly different than the general. Obama looked like he had no chance of winning for some time either; the difference is that Sanders didn't get the mass voter shift that Obama got after his Iowa victory.

Switching to Johnson after supporting Sanders is just ragequitting. Except you're not actually a 13 year old mad because he lost at Counterstrike, only voting with the maturity of one.
posted by Justinian at 4:35 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


What do Sanders and Johnson have in common?

Why is a raven like a writing desk?
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:37 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I didn't mean that MRAs would object to tax-free childcare, but to mothers getting paid family leave while fathers do not.

Well, Trump didn't say how it would be funded, so it's possible only women (or employers that hire women) will have to pay the tax that funds the program.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:38 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


The new-school MRAs we know from sites like We Hunted The Mammoth and the old-school MRAs trying to talk to you about Parental Alienation Syndrome outside the family law court are two completely different species. Pretty sure the former way outnumbers the latter and they could give a rat's ass about Trump forgetting about paternal leave
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:40 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


> Who had money on "The Dr Oz interview wouldn't actually be discussing his health or releasing any medical records?" 'Cause you just won:

Rats. I was kinda hoping for an episode similar to Invader Zim: "Dark Harvest"...

-- Before taping --

Dr. Oz Show intern: "Hello, Mr. Trump. Right this way please to the greenr-"
Donald Trump: "Say, you're full of organs, aren't you?"
Intern: {looks at his torso} "Why yes, yes I am."
Trump: "And you wouldn't notice if you were, say missing a few?"
Intern: {thinks for a second} "Probably not."
Trump: {starts laughing evilly}
Intern: {confused at first, also starts laughing with Trump}

-- During the show --

Donald Trump: "I've been working out."
Dr. Oz: "Wow... Two livers, a brain, six hearts, multiple intestines (large and small), spleens in three different colors, and a squeedilyspooch."
Trump: "More organsh meansh more human."
Oz: "Other than a mild case of head pigeons, why, you're one of the healthiest candidates I've ever seen! And such plentiful organs!"
Chris Christie: {offstage, head lolling} "Moooooooo..."
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 4:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [24 favorites]


Switching to Johnson after supporting Sanders is just ragequitting. Except you're not actually a 13 year old mad because he lost at Counterstrike, only voting with the maturity of one.

I am not even in this group so I have no skin in the game, but comments like these just make me see red. Maybe this election is wearing on me but everyone is pissing me off with their smugness and dismissal and inability to appreciate that anyone else is making compromises or hard decisions or contemplating strategy/viability or voting their personal principles the best they can. I want to ragequit out of this cesspool discourse we're in.
posted by naju at 4:48 PM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]


Nice Facebook post by Garrison Keillor about Clinton yesterday:

She is the first major-party nominee to be pictured in prison stripes by the opposition. She is the first cabinet officer ever to be held personally responsible for her own email server, something ordinarily delegated to anonymous nerds in I.T. The fact that terrorists attacked an American compound in Libya under cover of darkness when Secretary Clinton presumably got some sleep has been held against her, as if she personally was in command of the defense of the compound, a walkie-talkie in her hand, calling in air strikes.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:49 PM on September 14, 2016 [25 favorites]


Is it maybe time we as a community considered pressing pause on these threads?
posted by Tevin at 4:50 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


No. Your choices are: nap time, time out, drink to forget.

this is why i can't be a mod
posted by yasaman at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2016 [26 favorites]


WAIT, HOW COULD I FORGET: also, take a walk, as in "Hamilton, Jefferson, take a walk!"
posted by yasaman at 4:54 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Is it maybe time we as a community considered pressing pause on these threads?

I know what you mean--I do. These are exhausting in their own way. Thinking about it, though, I don't know where else I'd want to get my election news, if it wasn't through this, well, this filter. I have found it comforting to process all of this maddening shit along with what I've come to think of as my people.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 4:55 PM on September 14, 2016 [30 favorites]


Last I checked, participation, or even lurking on metafiter threads was a purely voluntary activity. I find these megathreads informative and entertaining.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:55 PM on September 14, 2016 [53 favorites]


these threads, since the Sanders v. HRC wars, have helped my sanity
posted by angrycat at 4:55 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]




A Face in the Crowd is a funny movie. I love the laughably unrealistic part at the end, where the demagogue's supporters turn on him when he accidentally reveals that he's exploiting them for personal gain.
posted by chrchr at 4:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


I have just noticed in the last week or so things have turned a little more defensive than usual. Of course it's all voluntary but "the election" has gone for so long a break could be helpful.
posted by Tevin at 4:59 PM on September 14, 2016


This election is subjectively taking 1000 years, I don't want to go it alone. YMMV.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 5:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [27 favorites]


I think we can all judge for ourselves how much thread we can take, and act accordingly. I only recently recouped enough evens to be able to can again, after Trump became the nominee. I'm almost out of evens again, and soon I won't be able to can anymore, but while I still can, I'd like to.

However, we should all be aware of our own limits, get lots of rest, go away if our blood pressure rises, and stay hydrated. [/healthcareworker]
posted by kythuen at 5:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


No need to stop the threads, and we should all practice self-care, etc. But a little less tribal defensiveness, a little more intellectual analysis, and a modicum of compassion would go a long way in making these next eight weeks better.
posted by naju at 5:10 PM on September 14, 2016 [20 favorites]


Fewer derails would help, too. This thread has been particularly bad.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


No need to stop the threads, and we should all practice self-care, etc. But a little less tribal defensiveness, a little more intellectual analysis, and a modicum of compassion would go a long way in making these next eight weeks better.
posted by naju at 7:10 PM on September 14


Sez who? (Just kidding. I agree on all points.)
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 5:13 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Clinton dares Trump to mingle with world leaders:
The former secretary of state appears to be baiting Trump with her decision to meet with foreign leaders during the U.N. General Assembly.
The headline is misleading; she is just scheduling meetings, not explicitly calling him out.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:17 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thanks for participating here Naju I appreciate your perspective even if I sometimes disagree with your points.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


The attempted vote fuckery continues: Missouri lawmakers override Democratic governor’s veto of bill requiring ID to vote:
Missouri lawmakers on Wednesday overrode Governor Jay Nixon’s veto of a bill requiring voters to show government-issued photo identification in order to cast a ballot in the state starting in 2017, after this year’s presidential election.

The Missouri Senate voted 24-7 for the override on the heels of a 115-41 House vote earlier in the day. A two-thirds majority was required in both chambers for the override.

The bill would take effect in 2017 if voters in November pass a state constitutional amendment in support of the law. That is necessary because the Missouri Supreme Court ruled 10 years ago that such a law violated the existing state constitution.
posted by palindromic at 5:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


naju: "Maybe this election is wearing on me but everyone is pissing me off with their smugness and dismissal and inability to appreciate that anyone else is making compromises or hard decisions or contemplating strategy/viability or voting their personal principles the best they can."

On the topic of how voters make their decisions, political scientists Larry Bartels and Christopher Achen have a book entitled Democracy for Realists where they argue that the usual theory that voters choose their politicians by evaluating policy positions and the like -- they call that the "folk-theory of political science" -- bears little resemblance to how people actually vote. Rather, they claim that people are guided mainly by social identity and partisan loyalties. In other words, if I'm reading them correctly, they're saying that politics is primarily an exercise in tribalism not high-minded, The West Wing-esque policy debate. Their analysis does not appear to be restricted to special subsets of voters (e.g.: third-party voters, ethnic minorities, etc...) but is apparently applied to basically the entire populace. I've been procrastinating on getting a hold of this book and checking out how the authors are supporting their thesis.
posted by mhum at 5:22 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


And I'd rather read another 50,000 comments about whether Lefties should vote for Johnson than play Guess Trumps Weight for no discernible reason.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I want to ragequit out of this cesspool discourse we're in.

Me, too.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 5:26 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


than play Guess Trumps Weight for no discernible reason.

If you get it exactly right you win a 6 foot stuffed Pepe the frog.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:31 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


Metafilter election threads are literally meta-filtering the election for me. I would have no clue where to get properly filtered news without these threads, so keep it up, please.
posted by monospace at 5:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [20 favorites]


Can we reclaim Pepe? I always liked that lil guy
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think now would be a good time for someone to post about how Trump can't win without XX% of the hispanic vote and XX% of the black vote. I always find that post very soothing.
posted by kythuen at 5:34 PM on September 14, 2016 [19 favorites]


Johnson can present whatever foreign policy he wants because he's definitely not going to win. He doesn't have to have a plausible plan or strategy. That's entirely different from Sanders, who had a completely plausible primary campaign and had to defend and debate his positions seriously.
posted by zutalors! at 5:34 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]



I think now would be a good time for someone to post about how Trump can't win without XX% of the hispanic vote and XX% of the black vote. I always find that post very soothing.


40% of the Hispanic vote.
posted by zutalors! at 5:35 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


She is the first major-party nominee to be pictured in prison stripes by the opposition.

Nopity-nope.
Although to be fair Debs was in prison at the time.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:36 PM on September 14, 2016


Trump doesn't exercise, and other things we've learned from the Dr. Oz interview
Trump also claimed he's good enough to play with the PGA, according to audience member Kelly Platt.
Wow. We're getting into Kim Jong Il territory here. If Trump announces that he never poops or pees then we'll know for sure who his favorite dictator is. I remember reading this Washington Post article from last September about how Trump is known for cheating at golf-- maybe he is confused at how good he is?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:37 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think now would be a good time for someone to post about how Trump can't win without XX% of the hispanic vote and XX% of the black vote. I always find that post very soothing.

40% of the Hispanic vote.


What's the breakdown on this? It seems like if Trump wins WI, OH and FL, he wins. I don't think he needs 40% of the hispanic vote in the whole country to win those states.
posted by dis_integration at 5:38 PM on September 14, 2016




a little less tribal defensiveness, a little more intellectual analysis, and a modicum of compassion

If you're new here, I think there's a FAQ or something.
posted by uosuaq at 5:39 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


What's the breakdown on this?

It's from the department of made up statistics and redundancy department. It's impossible to say how much of the Latino vote Trump needs without knowing what fraction of the white vote he'll get, nor without knowing what the turnout of those groups will be.
posted by Justinian at 5:41 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


It seems like if Trump wins WI, OH and FL, he wins. I don't think he needs 40% of the hispanic vote in the whole country to win those states.

HuffPost Pollster composite polls of Wisconsin, Ohio, and Florida.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's from the department of made up statistics and redundancy department.

Maybe. But still soothing!
posted by kythuen at 5:42 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sorry, I did not invent that statistic. It's true that it's debatable if he will need that much if Hispanics are simply overwhelmed by the white vote.

So as is expected, let us shift our focus to white votes and white issues.
posted by zutalors! at 5:44 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]




Daniel Dale's latest piece: Body double? Secret earpiece? Donald Trump fuels Hillary Clinton conspiracy theories

Donald Trump has encouraged his supporters to buy into a fictional world of dark and unfounded conspiracies.
Explicitly and in barely veiled code, Donald Trump has encouraged his supporters to buy into dark and unfounded allegations about his opponent, the president and the world at large. With the help of right-wing media outlets, he has given an unmistakable blessing to the conspiratorial thinking that has been present in American political life since the Revolution.

“We just have never seen a major-party nominee embrace the fringe element in the way that we have with Trump. That is new,” said Republican strategist Matt Mackowiak. “I think he wants to keep that fringe element motivated and mobilized. I don’t think he’s probably 100 per cent comfortable with it, but I think he likes that they’re stirring things up.”[...]

Research by University of Miami professor Joe Uscinski and others suggests conservatives are no more likely to buy into conspiracy theories than liberals. During the George W. Bush presidency, Uscinski noted, conspiracies swirled on the left about former vice-president Dick Cheney and about oil-services firm Halliburton.

And he said that top Democrats have themselves floated conspiracies. Bernie Sanders, he noted, called the entire economic system “rigged” and accused billionaires of “buying elections.” A Clinton ad in August suggested that Trump praises Russian leader Vladimir Putin because of hidden personal ties to Russia.
I'm not sure that calling the entire economic system rigged is a conspiracy theory. Factually we know that people with money are able to influence legislators who write the tax code and that keeps the money concentrated at the top. That is "the rigging" that Sanders refers to. How is that a conspiracy theory? That is just reality.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:52 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


What's the breakdown on this?

Not sure if this is what zutalors! is referencing, but I found this googling: GOP 2016 Win Will Need More Than 40 Percent Of Latino Vote, Says Study.

"The Republican nominee selected to run for president in 2016 will need to get a higher share of Latino votes than in the past - as high as almost half in some key battleground states, according to a new analysis by Latino Decisions.

That's a high mountain to climb for the Republican Party considering it's twice the percentage that Mitt Romney received when he ran as the Republican presidential candidate in 2012. Back then, Romney received just 23 percent of the Latino vote.

Even if the Republican Party wins 60 percent of the white vote—which hasn't done in a presidential election since 1988—the Republican presidential nominee would need to get 42 percent and in another scenario as high as 47 percent of Latino votes in order to win the popular vote, the study finds. In 2012, Romney got 59 percent of the white vote."
posted by chris24 at 5:53 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


Hell, the second plane hit the towers on live television.

The image of this is so seared into my brain that mention of it just now has got me recalling all of the details of where I was when it happened. I worked at Best Buy at the time in the computer department but was up front by the video department where most of the TV's were turned to the news. I was watching it on an end-cap on a 27" JVC TV/DVD combo, silver in color. I was facing the front of the store and the doors were to my left. After a few minutes I went back to my department to see one of my co-workers start flipping out on a customer that was bitching at him about the price of ink cartridges.

Doubting that event is right up there with holocaust denial.
posted by VTX at 5:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]


Nate Cohn had an article today about how he expects demographic shifts to impact the election.

Spoiler: Hillary Clinton can't count on the minority vote!

That article pretends to be about statistics but is pretty wobbly on them - maybe the white demographic in Florida will turnout stronger than we think, maybe blacks won't turn out like they have. Ok.
posted by zutalors! at 5:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


It has almost gone unmentioned (as far as I've seen) that Trump has gone, like, weeks without shitting outside the litterbox. The one notable exception was his off-the-rails immigration speech. Other than that – well, a slow news day for Trump is still a terrible, career-ending day for any other candidate, but he's managed to figure out where the boundaries are, and to stay more-or-less within them.

Now, some of that is surely Trump fatigue among audiences and the media. He's been at this for over a year, and nothing he does is surprising any more. He could announce tomorrow that he wants to implement a forced sterilization program for Inuit-Americans, and it'd barely register – once you've horribly insulted 37 different identity groups, and doubled and tripled down on each of those statements, what's 38?

But he used to compensate for this effect: whenever his latest"gaffe" (sorry; I hate that term) started to blow over, he'd say something three times as WTF. He just kept ratcheting up the rhetoric.

Maybe he finally sensed – or had it thrashed into him by his campaign staff – that he was about to cross a line that even he couldn't return from. At the peak of his recursive spiral of WTF, his poll numbers were in the toilet, the media narrative was "this is a candidate self-immolating in public", and he seemed to be hemorrhaging more and more supporters every day.

But because he's (mostly) managed not to advocate genocide for almost a month, and (more to the point) because the media is terrible and the American electorate apparently have the attention spans of goldfish, his odds have been steadily climbing.

I think he might actually avoid turning into a geyser of raw sewage at the debates. I mean, he'll display gross ignorance of policy and governance, and total disregard for American principles and decency – but he's Donald Trump, so apparently that doesn't matter. If he can "look presidential" (at least in the eyes of idiots), and can avoid explicit racist and sexist slurs, it won't hurt him.

54 days, y'all.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Guys, apart from PEC (and I hope they're the ones who have it right!) the poll aggregator types have Trump at somewhere around 30-35% to win right now while he is pulling around 20% of the Latino vote. I leave it as an exercise for the reader as to what the election would look like if he literally doubled his share to 40%.
posted by Justinian at 6:01 PM on September 14, 2016


Doubting that event is right up there with holocaust denial.

I don't entertain any of these theories myself, but just in the interest of pedantry, I think it was clarified way upthread that the thing about "no video of the plane hitting" was about the plane that hit the Pentagon, not the towers. That's the standard truther talking point, anyway.
posted by dialetheia at 6:01 PM on September 14, 2016


It has almost gone unmentioned (as far as I've seen) that Trump has gone, like, weeks without shitting outside the litterbox.

that's because it's not true. The immigration speech wasn't an oopsie exception, it was completely horrifying. He talked about loving Putin just last week. He talked about stealing oil last week. He made fun of Hillary's pneumonia earlier today.

What is it that is considered "shitting outside the litterbox" to you?
posted by zutalors! at 6:02 PM on September 14, 2016 [18 favorites]


Not sure if this is what zutalors! is referencing, but I found this googling

I've seen similar 40% stats, and it may be a useful rule of thumb, but state turnouts matter more. If Trump gets all the FL Hispanics and none of the CA ones, that's a win, even if it's a lower percentage.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:02 PM on September 14, 2016


Not All Trump Hotels Provide Paid Maternity Leave, Despite Ivanka Trump’s Claim
In a television appearance touting her father’s newly released maternity leave and child care plans, Ivanka Trump said that the Trump Organization provided all of its thousands of employees with paid maternity leave.

If it does, that’s news to employees at many of the Trump Organization’s hotels.

The Huffington Post on Wednesday morning checked the validity of Ivanka Trump’s comments to ABC. Employees at the Trump SoHo, New York and Miami hotels, as well as the Mar-a-Lago Club in Florida, all said that they do not offer workers paid maternity leave. Instead, they said that the company complied with the Family and Medical Leave Act, a federal law that requires companies to give employees up to 12 weeks of unpaid time off for the adoption or birth of a child.
I have a feeling that Ivanka confused "maternity leave" with "paid maternity leave." It makes no difference to her so why should she bother with the details?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:03 PM on September 14, 2016 [16 favorites]


Sure, the race has tightened. No one is denying that.

The Senator from EvilBizarroWorld is mistaken. I deny that on the face of it. Here's why:

Clinton is eminently qualified, is doing everything right with GOTV and has led the whole time.
Trump is a Republican stooge, not even a very good one, is patently unqualified and his base are a rogue's gallery of men who are allergic to politics and sense.

Polls! F*#k that, I literally (literally literally, not literally figuratively) do not know anyone with a landline. And I'm an Olds. S'why the guys in my car club call me The Cruiser. But no one I know even answers the phone if the number's not in the contact list. And we've got mad skeelz at avoiding people with clipboards. Polls.

Ragey Fox viewers who don't have the slightest intention to vote, just happy to yell at someone on the phone.

Not worried about please-please-please-give-us-a-horse-race polls. The GOP is FUKd.

Downticket now, them's good racin'.
posted by petebest at 6:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Just to clarify, I understand that we vote state by state and electoral college and etc.The 40% stat is based on Republican strategy data and demographic trends and considers the way that we vote. Yes, it could be totally off because of an overwhelming white love for Trump. But it's unlikely.
posted by zutalors! at 6:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


do not know anyone with a landline

I do believe that many polls have moved towards including cellphone polling. Pew Research does 75% cell phone polling.

Anyway, the polls predicted 2012 pretty well and I think the landline/cellphone dynamics were pretty much the same then as now.
posted by dis_integration at 6:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Doubting that event is right up there with holocaust denial.

I was right underneath WTC2 in the middle of Church Street and heard the scream of engines and looked up as the plane finished the last block, saw the underside of it as it disappeared into the tower, felt the heat of the fireball, had to dodge a rain of debris, saw people not dodge debris. And have photos to prove it. Fuck anyone who says that shit. And fuck Trump for teasing around it and encouraging truthers.
posted by chris24 at 6:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [55 favorites]


If you're stressing about all this, I suggest a Jellyfish break.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


Polls! F*#k that, I literally (literally literally, not literally figuratively) do not know anyone with a landline. [...] Not worried about please-please-please-give-us-a-horse-race polls. The GOP is FUKd.

petebest, I wish to live in your world. can I come live there? It must be a much nicer world than this one.
posted by Justinian at 6:07 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wrote this before, but if you are really upset about polls for Trump, go volunteer for the Clinton campaign. They know what they are doing and they care a lot more than 538 (where Harry Enten says he doesn't vote because he'll be fine either way) and NYTimes. They care more than Rush Limbaugh or Russia cares for Trump to win.
posted by zutalors! at 6:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


Right but no one answers their cellphone from an unknown number. Polling is like mainstream journalism: borked and incapable of grasping the details.

And yeah, come on over we got cold drinks and hot sauce . . . No guacamole tho, somebody bought up all the avocados
posted by petebest at 6:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I literally (literally literally, not literally figuratively) do not know anyone with a landline.

I have a landline! I know several people with landlines.

I mean, I don't answer my phone from unknown numbers so I still never get polled, but.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well. There it is.
posted by petebest at 6:13 PM on September 14, 2016


I mean, here's an article from less than a year ago saying "nearly half" of Americans don't have landlines. In other words, slightly over half do. They're not that rare yet.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:13 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Pew Research does 75% cell phone polling.

That still relies on people actually answering their calls. They're just polling the sort of people who answer calls from unknown 800 numbers, i.e. a conman's key demo, i.e. Trump voters.

Seriously, expect a lot of I TOLD YOU THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED come November.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:14 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]




Ooh, mhum, thanks so much for that book reference! It is highly relevant to a project I'm currently working on.

(This means that reading Metafilter threads counts as research and is therefore a productive use of my time, right?)
posted by Superplin at 6:16 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


That wonderful outreach.
posted by defenestration at 6:17 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


NYTimes: The Union Leader of New Hampshire endorses Gary Johnson over Donald Trump
After assailing Mr. Trump on a regular basis leading up to the state’s primary, the venerable Union Leader, a conservative bulwark for generations, is now going a step further: For the first time in over 100 years, New Hampshire’s largest newspaper will not be endorsing the Republican nominee for president.


Editorial from the Union Leader
Voters leaning toward Trump are understandably fed up with the status quo, of which Clinton is a prime example. But they kid themselves if they think Trump isn’t pretty much a part of that status quo as well, or that he is in any way qualified to competently lead this nation.

The man is a liar, a bully, a buffoon. He denigrates any individual or group that displeases him. He has dishonored military veterans and their families, made fun of the physically frail, and changed political views almost as often as he has changed wives.

Americans are being told that we have to choose the lesser of two evils. No, we don’t.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [15 favorites]


That still relies on people actually answering their calls. They're just polling the sort of people who answer calls from unknown 800 numbers, i.e. a conman's key demo, i.e. Trump voters.

I think they do callbacks. Like they leave a message and you call them back and take the poll. But non-response bias is a thing, to be sure. Not sure how it affects the results. I think the evidence is pretty strong that, on the aggregate, the polls are in fact predictive.
posted by dis_integration at 6:19 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


I mean, here's an article from less than a year ago saying "nearly half" of Americans don't have landlines. In other words, slightly over half do. They're not that rare yet.

A lot of people get telephone service as part of their internet/cable package. I wonder how many bother to hook up a phone?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah, pollsters are presumably aware of these things. And if you look at general election polling in 2012, it was pretty accurate (and those who tried to "unskew" polls were wrong). Even in 2012 tons of people had cellphones and caller id and so on, it wasn't so different.

Who knows, maybe this will be the year polling fails, but I don't see evidence of that yet. (Primary polling has always been less reliable but still did fairly well this year with one or two big misses)
posted by thefoxgod at 6:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


That still relies on people actually answering their calls. They're just polling the sort of people who answer calls from unknown 800 numbers, i.e. a conman's key demo, i.e. Trump voters.

That was true four years ago and the polling was pretty much correct. That was true two years ago and if anything the polling underestimated Republican results. If you think the polling is wholly unrelated to reality, why do you think Hillary Clinton is winning at all?
posted by dirigibleman at 6:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


WaPo: Trump, interrupted, heckled in visit to Flint church

Not surprising, seeing how much distrust and anger Flint locals still have toward the Republican Gov Snyder's team that caused and covered up the whole problem. Not to mention Trump's whole racist baggage. I wonder what Trump hoped or expected would happen there.
posted by p3t3 at 6:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


I wonder how many bother to hook up a phone?

I mean, the study specifically says "An NHIS family was considered to have landline telephone service if the survey respondent for the family reported that there was “at least one phone inside your home that is currently working and is not a cell phone.”"
posted by thefoxgod at 6:24 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


petebest: No guacamole tho, somebody bought up all the avocados

slips out the back door with a vague smile, humming quietly to herself
posted by Superplin at 6:25 PM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]


(And the study is done in-person, not over the phone, since that would obviously be a problem for a survey about who has phones :) )
posted by thefoxgod at 6:25 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


One really interesting bit is that white people are the only group with a high number of wireless-only households. Hispanic wireless-only is 20%, black wireless-only is 12%, Asian wireless-only is 6%. But white non-hispanic is 60%.

So excluding cell phones would give a bias against white people, in theory.

[ignore this]
posted by thefoxgod at 6:27 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


So Cosmo-- yes! Cosmopolitan Magazine-- interviewed Ivanka about the new Trump maternity leave policy and they did not go easy on her.
In 2004, Donald Trump said that pregnancy is an inconvenient thing for a business. It's surprising to see this policy from him today. Can you talk a little bit about those comments, and perhaps what has changed?

So I think that you have a lot of negativity in these questions, and I think my father has put forth a very comprehensive and really revolutionary plan to deal with a lot of issues. So I don't know how useful it is to spend too much time with you on this if you're going to make a comment like that. [snip]

I would like to say that I'm sorry the questions — you’re finding them negative, but it is relevant that a presidential candidate made those comments, so I'm just following up.

Well, you said he made those comments. I don't know that he said those comments.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:28 PM on September 14, 2016 [62 favorites]


Argh I totally misread that. Ignore my comment.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:29 PM on September 14, 2016


Thank jeebus. Rachel Maddow describing today in the news left her feeling like she needs to wash.
A lot of people have convinced themselves that he has made some new disclosure about his health. A great showman can pick any one thing and be so ridiculous about it that everyone stops what they were paying attention to before...and we pay for the privilege of paying attention to whatever it is...that's what showmanship is. It's a con but it's very compelling.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:32 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump touches on Clinton's health in Ohio: "You think Hillary would be able to stand up here?" He says of hot rally

You knew he couldn't stay on message not to attack her health as soon as he got in front of a camera.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:34 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


From the Cosmo article: "So it's a very comprehensive rewrite of a tax code that is 65 years old and was put in place before a significant portion of the U.S. labor force was female."

The tax code is not 65 years old. The modern tax code was adopted in 1986 and the largest rewrite before that was 1954. The EITC, which she talks about just before the quote, started in 1975 (but was expanded w the 1986 rewrite). I mean, I get the point, but arghhh can't they get *any* of their facts right!?!?! /taxrant
posted by melissasaurus at 6:36 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


I mean, I get the point, but arghhh can't they get *any* of their facts right!?!?! /taxrant

To ask the question is to answer it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:39 PM on September 14, 2016


Well, you said he made those comments. I don't know that he said those comments.

She is her father's daughter.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:39 PM on September 14, 2016 [35 favorites]


Privledge is turning a 9/11 memorial into about one persons health, the insult is lying and withholding it.

Trvmp was not heckled at the church, he was shutdown, I expect he did his politicking here on purpose because he needs the humility card now. Hillary came to Flint and Bernie shut her down.

Trvmp may be able to shoot someone in Manhatten, but in Flint, when the school kids waved the finger, and the motorcade just trickled by MAN, that's a sight and testiment to this beloved city.

Dude has a big plane, as it took off I scribbled "fired" with my cloud tracing finger.
posted by clavdivs at 6:45 PM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trvmp

I see what yov did there.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:47 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trvmp is trve kvlt black metal.
posted by infinitywaltz at 6:48 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


You knew he couldn't stay on message not to attack her health as soon as he got in front of a camera.

He also said:
Don't forget when I announced, seems like a long time ago, 17 people running, I was the non-professional. Everyone said "Oh Trump has never done this before. How could he possibly survive? These are the greatest professionals in the business." Boom, boom, boom.

Now we have one left. Now, we have one left and in all fairness, she's lying in bed getting better, and we want her better. We want her back on the trail, right? We want her back on the trail.
He must have wished really hard. Tomorrow she will be in Greensboro, NC. Program starts at 3:45.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:52 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Whoa, can Cosmo moderate the debates?

What is your top Outrageous Tip to Drive Him Wild?
posted by yellowbinder at 6:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [15 favorites]


WaPo: Trump, interrupted, heckled in visit to Flint church:
One woman shouted that Trump had used discriminatory housing practices in his buildings, causing the celebrity businessman to respond, “Never, you’re wrong. Never would.”
He's been using the same lie as a denial since 1973:
“We never have discriminated,” he added, “and we never would.”
Major Landlord Accused of Antiblack Bias in City
Trump’s Employees Marked “C” for “Colored”
posted by kirkaracha at 7:00 PM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]




"Name three."
posted by holgate at 7:02 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


"Well, most of them died in the World Trade Center." Effective combo lying.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:03 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


In the spirit of election season, I've started picking up for unknown phone numbers. I'm hoping to get a call from a Hillary phone banker so we can gab.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]


One of my favorite phone bank calls was the guy who said "OBVI" when I asked him if he wanted to support Hillary.
posted by zutalors! at 7:09 PM on September 14, 2016 [25 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell is calling out the media basically every night lately. Calling Trump a liar.
posted by zutalors! at 7:11 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm not too worried about the polls. If you look at HuffPost Pollster composite polls going back to June 1*, Trump has a ceiling of just over 42%. His high was 42.5% just before the conventions; he's at 43.3% now and it looks like he's plateauing. Clinton's floor during the same period is 44.5%; she's at 46.1%.

So basically he's back to where he was at before the conventions, and her numbers are better.

*Trump clinched the Republican nomination on May 26.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


What is it that is considered "shitting outside the litterbox" to you?

No need to get fighty about it. I'm not defending or excusing Trump. Of course the statements you cite are horrific. But I'm not commenting on the moral value of Trump's statements.

All I mean is: the media narrative has clearly shifted away from "WTF TRUMP" (as many people in this thread have noted with frustration), and he's been steadily gaining ground in the polls. We agree on those facts, right?

I don't mean that Trump hasn't said horrible things. He can't help but say horrible things; it's what he does. I only mean that he's reined himself in just enough to pull out of his post-convention death spiral.
And all he had to do was downshift from Level 18 Racist to Level 17 Racist (the immigration speech notwithstanding). I mean, it's terrifying and damning that the media and the electorate can be gamed that easily. But here we are.

Maybe that change in narrative was gonna happen anyway – maybe it was inevitable that the media would get bored with Trump's dumpster fire, and shift their focus to the Clinton conspiracy theories for the sake of "balance". I guess it's open for debate how much "credit" Trump gets for righting his listing ship. His entire campaign has been about manipulating the attention of the media, but he's done that with all the grace of a drunken gorilla – I'm certainly not saying that he's some kind of master manipulator. If anything, I'm commenting on how badly the media is failing the American people, by allowing their fickle attentions to be so easily batted about by this vile orange baboon.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:13 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


Polls! F*#k that, I literally (literally literally, not literally figuratively) do not know anyone with a landline. And I'm an Olds. S'why the guys in my car club call me The Cruiser. But no one I know even answers the phone if the number's not in the contact list. And we've got mad skeelz at avoiding people with clipboards. Polls... Ragey Fox viewers who don't have the slightest intention to vote, just happy to yell at someone on the phone.

These are real problems that exist with polling.

But this puts me in mind of the Romney camp's insistence up through the end of the 2012 election that all the polls/models that showed them losing were incorrect -- reportedly borne out of true confidence that this was the case rather than campaign bluster.

The problems that exist with polling are problems that professional pollsters work at trying to model and address. With varying degrees of success, to be sure. The polls *might* be wrong. The changes we're seeing might just be noise or bias. But I'm not sure, and I'm not willing to give myself over to the epistemic closure that we see so often on the right. I think it's a better idea to assume the race is, however irrationally, a bit tighter than it was. And to do whatever you think needs to be done to try and address that rather than assume it can't really be.
posted by wildblueyonder at 7:16 PM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


I wasn't "getting fighty" about it. But you were like "this aside, that aside" I was genuinely curious about what you do consider so bad that it can't be shoved aside.


(the immigration speech notwithstanding)


why?

He can't help but say horrible things

I don't think this is true.

But again, what's the horrible stuff that you think has been reined in.
posted by zutalors! at 7:19 PM on September 14, 2016


He made a bunch of tentative backpedaling attempts to appear less racist. At one point appearing to do a 180 on immigration, and then pivoting back when he received pushback on it. Doing his big outreach to African-Americans and Hispanics - totally unconvincing, but saying "you have a right to not get shot when you walk down the street" is at least less horrible than he's been? I mean, all of this is highly questionable, but he has at least attempted to lower himself from Level 18 Racist to Level 17 Racist, for the sake of the votes. Not too controversial a statement.
posted by naju at 7:27 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's been discussed a little, but I'm surprised how little it's being pointed out that this is the end for the Republicans. The vast majority of R voters didn't want an R candidate. They were a motley bunch, but there were several (looking for a word...not good...not decent...) candidates that would have been contenders in the past and they all did horribly. Romney was born to be a R president and couldn't win.

If Trump loses they can cleanse and purge and try and get it together. If he wins it's all over. Whatever the party is going forward it will be something other than what it was, if it survives at all. I think there is a good chance we see R leaders go all in against Trump in the next 2 months.

I also think Fox News might pull the old switcharoo at some point.
posted by bongo_x at 7:30 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


I was happy to see the PERPETUALLY REPUBLICAN Union Leader endorsing Johnson. I believe it's the third 'always endorse the R' paper to do so, and the endorsement season is just starting. Any of those rare creatures called "reasonable Republicans" who really want to stop the Baboon Buffoon are going to have to be heard from... not right now, but soon, in order to make defections to Johnson appear less like making him a 'spoiler' and more like 'a groundswell of support'. Creating an illusion that the Libertarian can win (when he honestly really can't) will draw more votes away from Trumpasaurus Blecch and help keep the defectors from being blamed for 'throwing the race to Hillary', even if that's what they are really doing. Remember, Bill's first election win was 43% in a 3-way race where Bush Sr. got 37% and Perot got 19%.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:30 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


"you have a right to not get shot when you walk down the street" is at least less horrible than he's been?

is that what he said, or are you talking about "what do you have to lose?"

I don't know what's so fighty about just trying to get an answer on what the behavior was that Trump is doing better on, if the immigration speech, talking about stealing Iran's oil, talking about Putin's praise, and talking about Clinton's pneumonia is an example of him doing well.
posted by zutalors! at 7:33 PM on September 14, 2016


I was genuinely curious about what you do consider so bad that it can't be shoved aside.

Dude. It's not about what I consider. For the record, I think pretty much everything that comes out of Trump's mouth is reprehensible. But, as I've already explained at length, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that the media – and, if we trust the polls, a significant percentage of voters – have been willing to shove a lot of Trump's recent vileness aside, merely because it falls (barely) short of a certain threshold of vileness.

Again: my own threshold is significantly lower. I, personally, am not shoving anything aside. But that's not the threshold I'm talking about.

But again, what's the horrible stuff that you think has been reined in.

I don't know what you're asking. I can't tell you the horrible things that Trump would have said in some hypothetical alternate universe where the media narrative is still "WTF TRUMP".

This is my third attempt to explain this – so if you're still reading it as a defense of Trump, I suggest that we drop it. Because I don't know how to be any clearer.

The problems that exist with polling are problems that professional pollsters work at trying to model and address.

New square for election-thread bingo: "someone tries to invalidate polls by pointing out a super obvious challenge with polling methodology".

People. Polls are by no means perfect, but people do this for a living. They have degrees and know math and shit. If you're noticing a potential problem from your armchair, I guarantee that professional pollsters have also noticed it, have vigorously debated how to builds models to solve it, and have tested those models on tons of historical data. It's widely known that pollsters artificially adjust the numbers for various demographics to account for differing rates of cell phone ownership, response rates, population distribution, etc.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:35 PM on September 14, 2016 [24 favorites]


Buzzfeed, the Washington Post, the Huffington Post and (now) Cosmo take up pretty different niches in the media ecosystem -- but I think they've been among the best this year.

There seem to be three types of media organizations:

1) hahaha we're making money and/or helping Trump, will gladly spread the bullshit around as long as the $$/lols/power keeps comin'.

2) We're appalled, but really have no idea how to combat the firehose of bullshit that is the Trump campaign and his white nationalist followers; nevertheless, we are committed to providing our readers with the quality content they expect.

3) We figured out how to cut through the bullshit and tell you what's really happening,

Surprisingly this schema cuts right through the recently settled old/new media divide. It'll be fascinating to read the post-election tell-alls. (I'm assuming Clinton wins and that people can actually publish critical articles without fear of a government lawsuit.)
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:38 PM on September 14, 2016 [17 favorites]


In the spirit of election season, I've started picking up for unknown phone numbers. I'm hoping to get a call from a Hillary phone banker so we can gab.

I, too, have hoped that when the phone rings and it's a weird number, its something other than a robocall from a business loan thing. (My phone # is and forever will be Detroit area code. Thanks, Cellphones!) I've switched my default from ignore to answer, just for that.
posted by rp at 7:38 PM on September 14, 2016


This is completely unconvincing but it's at least coded as an attempt at being reasonable / non-racist.
"And I say to the African-American parent: You have a right to walk down the street of your city without having your child or yourself shot, and that's what's happening right now. That's what's happening," Trump said, before adding, "To the Hispanic parent, you have a right to walk outside without being shot. You have a right to good education for your child. You have a right to own your home. You have a right to have a good job."
posted by naju at 7:38 PM on September 14, 2016


I think there is a good chance we see R leaders go all in against Trump in the next 2 months.

Again, what's less than 0% chance? It's not negative zero, infinity zero? Zero to the zeroth power? There is absolutely no chance of any elected Republicans turning on Trump at this point other than the very, very few that have signed on the the #neverTrump movement already. Tax cuts and denying Democrats the chance to flip the Supreme Court outweigh the breakup of the party, the destruction of the nation, the return of internment camps, and the nuclear apocalypse for Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell and the entire Republican Party.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:43 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


There's also a chance Murdoch and sons will send down an edict to Fox News (and the New York Post) to turn against Deplorable Donald just because former Fox Boss Roger Ailes, who just cost The Company tens of millions of dollars in lawsuits turned around and went to work for Team Trump. Or they may hold back because they don't want a Defeated Donald to start his threatened Trump Network. Then again, Ailes' non-compete clause will keep him from working for TrumpNet for some time. Who knows what is going through Murdoch's mind right now? Remember, Fox was anti-Trump until he started looking inevitable for the nomination.

And I, for one, never said that very many R leaders would go "all in", just some with nothing to lose and the ability to influence some "reasonable Republicans" seeking an excuse to go elsewhere. The ones we already know are "Never Trump" have been quietly weighing their options, but they'll know when it's "now or never".
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:50 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sorry, but all of the traditional Republicans who haven't already gone #neverTrump are right now studying their alt-right memes and white supremacist buzzwords so they can be good members of the Party going forward.

(Re-reading this it sounds like sarcasm. It isn't. It's just the world we live in.)
posted by mmoncur at 7:51 PM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


There is absolutely no chance of any elected Republicans turning on Trump at this point other than the very, very few that have signed on the the #neverTrump movement already.

Yep. We've already seen which Republicans - or former Republicans - have any principles. I'm delighted the number was not zero. It was a hopeful thing.

The rest are not coming.

It's been discussed a little, but I'm surprised how little it's being pointed out that this is the end for the Republicans.

I doubt it. There's just too much inertia there: too many interlocking organizations, too much money flowing into various coffers, too much tribal loyalty, too much stationary already bought. Too little shame. They're going to shamble along for a good while yet. Whichever way this goes, they will pretend none of it was ever their fault and soldier on, trying to ruin everything for the 99%.
posted by mordax at 7:52 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


"not shitting outside the litterbox" = saying things with just enough plausible deniability and nested clauses that the reporters and/or people who are watching live on youtube can't really be bothered to painstakingly and precisely explain why it's fair to say that a particular, facially innocuous phrase is really a direct and intentional nod to white supremacy, misogyny or general assholery.

I think that everyone here agrees that Trump does this. It seems to some of us that he's suddenly gotten a lot better at it, which is worrisome; other people think he hasn't, or that it's not important. Is that the dispute in a nutshell?
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:53 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]



I think that everyone here agrees that Trump does this. It seems to some of us that he's suddenly gotten a lot better at it, which is worrisome; other people think not. Is that the dispute in a nutshell?


I think so, but I also think that those who think he's doing better tend to say "never mind this, forget that, don't look here" which is where it falls flat for me, because if you're, say, a minority the stuff that you're supposed to overlook is horrifyingly vivid and real and affects people in your life.
posted by zutalors! at 7:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


I see zero people in this thread doing anything remotely like that.
posted by naju at 7:57 PM on September 14, 2016 [6 favorites]



I see zero people in this thread doing anything remotely like that.


I disagree, but my attempts to understand that were all deleted so I'm not repeating that.
posted by zutalors! at 7:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


There's just too much inertia there: too many interlocking organizations, too much money flowing into various coffers, too much tribal loyalty, too much stationary already bought. Too little shame. They're going to shamble along for a good while yet. Whichever way this goes, they will pretend none of it was ever their fault and soldier on, trying to ruin everything for the 99%.

He's trending upwards and may yet take the national lead before the first debate, with at least a 20-30% chance of winning the whole thing. The fight is never won, either Trump will win, or they will regroup around the next Trump with a very good chance of storming into unified control in 2020 with Democrats defending an absurd number of Senate seats and 4 years of the NYT's "shadows and clouds" around the Clinton administration, and the House hopelessly lost maybe permanently.

Oh, and meanwhile they control more statehouses and governors mansions than ever before. Republicans and Trumpists are stronger than they have ever been, the idea that the Democratic coalition is anywhere close to a lasting majority is just fairies and unicorns.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:59 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


ugh I could use a nanny to help me with my stress eating

Knowing Trump, I'm surprised this feature isn't part of his extra special maternity leave policy.
posted by sallybrown at 8:08 PM on September 14, 2016


Remember when Trump called a POW a loser, suggested a journalist was overcome by her menstruation, failed to disavow the KKK, claimed a judge couldn't be fair because his parents were Mexican, asked Russia to hack into the former SecState's emails, and mocked the family of a KIA US Soldier?

America apparently doesn't.

I'm all out of evens, but I still can, I guess.
posted by dis_integration at 8:10 PM on September 14, 2016 [13 favorites]


White. Male. Privilege.
posted by cashman at 8:15 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


There is absolutely no chance of any elected Republicans turning on Trump at this point other than the very, very few that have signed on the the #neverTrump movement already.

They can impeach Trump on the morning of the 21st, convict him on the evening, and President Pence can nominate a SCOTUS justice on the 22nd. That's more likely than any more elected Republicans coming out openly against him.

I do wonder which papers outside of the NYPost (and the Trump-in-law-owned Observer) will endorse Trump.
posted by holgate at 8:16 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Russia was first. Hungary. Malaysia. Egypt. Turkey. Phillipines. Brexit.

Fascists are in fashion.

This is a pitchforks-and-torches election. We were told that women working would be fair, and make us all more prosperous. We were told that giving minorities equal rights would be a tide that lifted all ships.

Here is the goddamn hell of it, it did. Reganomics meant all of the rising tide and prosperity went to the bosses, and not the workers. ALL. OF. IT.

It is only just this year Obama, without a co-operative congress, managed to undo the damage and reverse it, hard core. It may be too late.

Clinton needs to treat this election like the Benghazi hearings. Show she's the strongest, most put-together motherfucker in the goddamn room.

This will happen at the first debate.

Trump dominates the news cycles because he's a reality TV star who knows how to do reality TV. The last debate, he will adopt the posture of the loosing contestant, and meekly look down as his tiki-torch is extinguished. This means a lot of new opportunities! His branding will be off the charts!

Bernie would be voluable and out front and winning the media war, true. Clinton has offices everywhere. She has dedicated paid and unpaid staff in paces the Trump campaign didn't even recognize were places.

Clinton is the Anti-Brexit. A good ground game gets you something nationwide posturing doesn't. You can't poll for that.

THAT. SAID.

Stop unskewing the polls and blaming the media. These are the tools of the enemy.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [21 favorites]


It's as if the people who say Obama is "the worst president ever" truly believe that, and they want to top it.
posted by defenestration at 8:18 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


That Reuters poll is strangely volatile... looking kinda shaky. But the most jarring data is under the "why are you voting for one or the other", both have the #1 reason "because I don't want the other to win", but a larger percentage of Trump voters than Clinton voters answered "because I agree with their policies". Yep, we're becoming America The Deplorable.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:20 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tehund just noted my post on Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast. It may be a while before we hear from him again if he falls down that rabbit-hole!
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:21 PM on September 14, 2016 [12 favorites]


They can impeach Trump on the morning of the 21st, convict him on the evening, and President Pence can nominate a SCOTUS justice on the 22nd. That's more likely than any more elected Republicans coming out openly against him.

For this to work, the GOP leadership will need to whip their House caucus (some of whom will be Trumpists, and some of whom will have not spent a day in the House yet), plus get a significant chunk of Democrats to sign on to a fast-tracked impeachment for a House majority, plus get unanimous consent from the Senate or else engage in rules-changing that Trump would immediately seize on as an excuse to delay...

I think a military coup is equally likely.

But the most likely outcome of all, if Trump wins, is a President who's canny enough to blow smoke until he's fully established an unchecked monopoly on state violence. And then...
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:39 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


and some of whom will have not spent a day in the House yet

Congress customarily reconvenes a fortnight earlier than the inauguration. My point isn't that it's likely, it's just slightly more likely among the set of things that are highly unlikely.
posted by holgate at 8:49 PM on September 14, 2016


The best reason I can think of to go Sanders->Johnson is that tactical support for the Libertarian party may in the long run serve to split the right. This could be a more effective means of freeing up space on the left than directly supporting a left party.

There are members of my family who are planning to do this. Not sure how I feel about it, but there's no way their state's going blue, so . . .
posted by aspersioncast at 8:52 PM on September 14, 2016


well, if the previous two presidential elections are any indicator, right about now is when MetaFilter goes so deep into Chicken Little territory that I have to check out for a while in order not to buy into it, lest I give up in complete despair.
posted by palomar at 8:55 PM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]


a larger percentage of Trump voters than Clinton voters answered "because I agree with their policies".

It seems like "policies" for many people is like "theories," in that "I just say whatever comes into my fool head" doesn't really constitute either, but sounds like it might, because both terms have common, non-technical uses ("in theory;" "that's store policy").
posted by aspersioncast at 8:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


right about now is when MetaFilter goes so deep into Chicken Little territory

We weren't there with the last six election threads?
posted by aspersioncast at 8:58 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Well, I wouldn't say the sky is falling, but there's a seriously evil man with his name on a lot of tall buildings, all no doubt made from substandard materials and just waiting for him to send his personal jet right into (without him in it, of course). So we all have to stand way clear from anything that looks remotely Trumpish, and I, for one, am glad to live in a county where the only things with his name on them are a few lawn signs pointing out local deplorables, and the nearest is several hundred yards away.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:08 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, based on what I've seen recently, this is the three-pronged strategy Trump will use to win the election.

1. Enough Big Lie propaganda to get him within a percentage point or two in the battlefield states.

2. Massive voter disenfranchisement, both through legal shenanigans and intimidation at the polls.

3. Russians hack the voting machines enough to get a couple percentage shift.

Boom. Trump landslide.

When I first came up with this, I wanted to think this was a horrible fantasy scenario, but the first two parts are already coming true. As time goes on, it becomes more and more plausible.

As the man said, "I know I'm being paranoid, but am I being paranoid enough?"
posted by happyroach at 9:25 PM on September 14, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think a military coup is equally likely.

It's easier than that. It doesn't even have to be anything so crude as something from the "2nd amendment people." Something that you might almost suspect would be natural causes for a man of Trump's age and condition.

But even better? If it looked a little fishy, who are partisans going to blame, any kind of GOP machination? No. They already have a natural scapegoat, the Clintons, for whom they've laid the groundwork in getting a lot of people (let alone partisans) to believe in the idea that they're sinister operators who have people killed for ambition or revenge. So, Trump becomes a martyr while Pence and the GOP get a certain amount of sympathy capital and maybe even a quasi-cleansing or semi-absolvement of Trumpism. It's like an amped up version of Karl Rove bugging his own candidates office.

I'm honestly not sure there's any way the GOP loses in that scenario (which is one of several reasons beyond the moral problems of this route that I wouldn't ever advocate it, on top of hoping it never comes to that) and if there aren't already cold SOBs inside of the GOP who've at least floated the idea I'd be pretty surprised.
posted by wildblueyonder at 9:33 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeesh. And here I was, hoping to ever sleep again.
posted by mordax at 9:39 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


Guys, seriously, its going to be fine. If you're freaking out, volunteer or donate if you can. But I believe in my heart Clinton is going to win this.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:45 PM on September 14, 2016 [21 favorites]


Yeah, me too.
posted by argybarg at 9:47 PM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]


Hillary’s “Deplorables” Barb Wasn’t a Gaffe—But the Trump Campaign’s Response Was:
If there was a “gaffe” this week, it wasn’t Clinton claiming that half of Trump supporters are unsavory, but the Trump campaign suggesting that the correct number is zero. Trump and Pence’s unwillingness to cede an inch to Clinton leashed them to the filth of the nation, which in turn revealed the truth of her critique in skin-crawling fashion.
...
Wittingly or not, Clinton has tricked Trump and his team into pulling back a very thin veil on an element of far-right politics they’d hoped to smuggle into power undetected. She no longer has to defend the claim that some of Trump’s supporters are deplorable.

Trump’s fellow Republicans are doing that for her—and they’re demanding he admit as much himself.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [23 favorites]


If you're stressing about all this, I suggest a Jellyfish break.

Get an up-close look at the delicate sea nettles in our Open Sea exhibit.

Watch as their long tentacles and lacey mouth-arms move smoothly through the water. But don't let these unassuming invertebrates fool you—their graceful trailing parts are covered in stinging cells used for hunting. When their tentacles touch tiny drifting prey, the stinging cells paralyze it and stick tight. The prey is moved to the mouth-arms and then to the mouth, where it's digested.


... Thanks, that helped a bit.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:59 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


If you need more reasons to be pissed off:

NYT: New Records Shed Light on Donald Trump’s $25,000 Gift to Florida Official

"The proximate timing of the Sentinel article and Mr. Trump’s donation, and suspicions of a quid pro quo, have driven a narrative that has dogged Mr. Trump and Ms. Bondi for three years ... But documents obtained this week by The New York Times, including a copy of Mr. Trump’s check, at least partly undercut that timeline."

So, basically - they went looking, but couldn't fully exonerate Trump and Bondi. Hey, at least partly, though. Bold truth telling and all that. I expect this to become a major cable news talking point - Trump wasn't trying to bribe Bondi, and how rude of those mean liberals to suggest something like that.

Even though "when Mr. Trump wrote that check, he still theoretically had reason to be concerned that Florida’s attorney general could become a player in the legal assault on Trump University."

Oh well. Pure coincidence.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:03 PM on September 14, 2016 [10 favorites]


Americans are being told that we have to choose the lesser of two evils. No, we don’t.

Even if it took a conservative newspaper to say it, I'm glad someone in the media is saying it. There's hope, yet.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:04 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Gary Johnson is that blurred cartoon on a hit of acid.
posted by clavdivs at 10:09 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


lord Jesus spare me from the bullshit two evils nonsense
posted by palomar at 10:10 PM on September 14, 2016 [28 favorites]


Oh well. Pure coincidence.

The idea that things might have happened after an initial inquiry from a journalist but before a story appears seems to be lost on the timeline journamalismers. What the fuck is wrong with the NYT's newsdesk?-
posted by holgate at 10:19 PM on September 14, 2016 [4 favorites]


(and yeah, time to step away from the blue for now.)
posted by holgate at 10:21 PM on September 14, 2016


Also, why did it take 8 days to mail a check? I can totally see Trump altering the sign date for the sole purpose of legal defense. All kinds of shady.
posted by p3t3 at 10:24 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


happyroach and wildblueyonder should be named depressingroach and somberblackvoid based on how I feel when I read their comments.
posted by Rat Spatula at 10:39 PM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]


≪fucks with knobs on mood organ>
posted by Rat Spatula at 10:41 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]



Kitten Therapy: Feral rescue Starling is, at this very moment, birthing a fresh batch of tiny kittehs whose antics will barely carry us through election day.
posted by maggieb at 10:46 PM on September 14, 2016 [21 favorites]


TMI.
posted by asteria at 10:47 PM on September 14, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sometimes I like to amuse myself by imagining Mr. Trump going down in the biggest landslide in history, one so epic that the man's very name becomes irrevocably intertwined with "biggest possible loser in history". Mostly because I think it may be one thing that he fears the most, even more than being forgotten or dying penniless. So, thinking of different ways "trump" could (re-) enter the language.

I have a pretty tin ear for these things, having disapproved of neologisms like "CD" and "blog", but I've got a good feeling about this general area of research into how the people will drag language where even a determined, narcissistic billionaire can't prevent it, and we can all see it happening, right there if you pause it you can see the exact moment he realizes this gigantic loser truly is how he will be remembered, by everyone, forever.
posted by bigbigdog at 10:51 PM on September 14, 2016 [11 favorites]


Just spotted this on NYT food critic Pete Well's Instagram: Trump Sandwich
posted by FJT at 10:56 PM on September 14, 2016 [3 favorites]


We weren't there with the last six election threads?

Each thread adheres to a cycle of disparate attitudes and moods, the result of which is a wild, swaying emotional dance, which it is dangerous to observe too closely

Some say the mods are already insane

Sad
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:01 PM on September 14, 2016 [14 favorites]


Who knows, maybe this will be the year polling fails, but I don't see evidence of that yet.

Right. Every cycle we get people who don't believe the polls claiming that this year they're all broken and aren't capturing the reality. Every cycle their hopes are dashed and they are left flabbergasted "But I don't anybody who voted for Nixon!".

Sure, maybe this cycle it'll be different. Anything is possible. But possible and likely aren't the same thing, and the track record of polling aggregation is quite good. Maybe this is a watershed election where non-likely voters come out of the woodwork and swamp Trump in a tsunami of unlikely voting. But it ain't the way to bet.
posted by Justinian at 11:47 PM on September 14, 2016 [8 favorites]


≪fucks with knobs on mood organ>

Jonathan Safran Foer?
posted by codacorolla at 12:08 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


The New Yorker: Mike Pence and the Meaning of “Deplorable”
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:50 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


Listened to Gary Johnson's interview on the New Yorker podcast.

They asked him if the retirement age should be raised.
He said yes.
They asked, OK, to what age?

He went on a rant that he is running for President, not dictator, and that he'd be working with Congress and blah blah blah. After multiple rounds of prodding, he eventually produced the age of 72, which is higher than black male life expectancy in this country.

So a) it's fucking crazy to expect black men to literally work until they die on the job and b) if you have a policy position you think is good, why can't you admit what it is right away? Why did he have to get defensive about stating his policy preference? If you're going to eventually give up an age which is literally higher than most people in a certain demographic will even live, why not just get it over with up front?

This was a continuous theme in the interview. Ask Johnson a question, get a dodgy response, follow up, get an angry rant in response because you asked him what his actual position means. Same thing happened when they asked him if school teachers should be allowed to carry guns -- he got pissy and said he's not going to tell teachers whether or not to pack heat.

I think he believes that we don't need to understand what his policy goals, but rather the direction of those goals relative to the status quo. That's a good outcome when the Libertarian platform is broadly in the same direction from where we are now, but the devil in the details is that Libertarians want to move 10x farther than most people in this country want to.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:10 AM on September 15, 2016 [35 favorites]


No posts in 3 hours? I'm shutting this thread down then. 😥
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:50 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


Oh god, I just saw a photo from the Dr. Oz interview. I apparently had no idea who he is and had been thinking he was Dr. Phil the whole time. I guess the whole charade could look slightly more legitimate to more people than I originally assumed.
posted by bibliowench at 5:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


I'm pretty busy choking on my terror.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


We're not allowed to see Trump's taxes because we'd ask too many questions

Yeah. That's the fucking point.
posted by strange chain at 5:07 AM on September 15, 2016 [22 favorites]


Interesting phrasing in that Trump clip bashing Hillary's health yesterday. Just before he said the Hillary bit, Trump said:

"It is hot, and it's always hot when I perform because the crowds are so big..."

Emphasis mine. So he flat out says he's performing. Not that we didn't already know this was just another ego platform for him, but wow.
posted by kythuen at 5:15 AM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


Axelrod and NPR (By way of Inskeep) pulled off a five-minute Heel-Face Turn that will have Vince McMahon taking notes. They started out by addressing Clinton's "problem" of "privacy" - she just likes her privacy too much. That is masterful framing. It allows a sympathetic and human interpretation of what's percieved as her largest weakness, and provides a one-line shutdown of both the health scare and emails thing talking points going forward.

They talk about her privacy "problem" while constantly managing to bring up Trump's failure to disclose anything meaningful about his life, usually while lying through his teeth. While discussing Clinton's "problem," Axelrod and Inskeep utterly dismantled Trump's credibility as a candidate in passing by comparing him to Clinton. It wasn't even hard.

They also seeded the notion that the only reason people care about her "privacy problem" so much is that she's a woman, and gets more scrutiny because of it, in a beautifully asked and answered question. Subtlety works.

I hope we're about to see a general pivot in the way the press covers Trump. The Dr. Oz thing is too juicy a slab of red meat to pass up, they have to be eager to see him make an ever larger clown of himself. Horserace-to-landslide due to hubris and compounding incompetence on one side, and dogged determination on the other is a compelling narrative!
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:23 AM on September 15, 2016 [27 favorites]


NYT (Kristof) - When a Crackpot Runs for President

"We owe it to our readers to signal when we’re writing about a crackpot. Even if he’s a presidential candidate. No, especially when he’s a presidential candidate."
posted by chris24 at 5:29 AM on September 15, 2016 [25 favorites]


Then Axelrod maintained that she was wasn't being given a different level of scrutiny from Trump because she is a woman, but simply because she had been in public life longer??? Is that some kind of strategic master stroke, too? 'Cause it sounded to me like a yet another dude not getting it.
posted by BrashTech at 5:29 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


Is that some kind of strategic master stroke, too?

He didn't shoot down Inskeep by refuting the notion, which may not be well received without some reflection, he simply changed the subject, reinforced her qualifications for office, and left the original question lingering out there for the listener to reflect upon. Nice.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:34 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


Vice News: We’re suing the IRS for audits of Donald Trump’s tax returns

Sounds good to me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:42 AM on September 15, 2016 [32 favorites]


Oh god, I just saw a photo from the Dr. Oz interview. I apparently had no idea who he is and had been thinking he was Dr. Phil the whole time

Me too. I was like, why is Donald Trump being interviewed by Robin Colcord?
posted by Flashman at 5:44 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]




As if Republican senators would vote for a gay Supreme Court Justice.
posted by PenDevil at 5:48 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


Donald Trump has made it clear he will nominate Peter Thiel to the Supreme Court if he wins the presidency

Because what the constitution needs is some disrupting.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:50 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


Thiel is ineligible to serve on the Supreme Court. The appointment is for life, which disqualifies vampires.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:01 AM on September 15, 2016 [29 favorites]


New NYT/CBS poll of likely voters nationally:

Clinton 46
Trump 44

Among RVs, it's 46-41


This poll was taken Sept 9-13, meaning right through "deplorables" (9/9), illness (9/11), and aftermath.

While 2% LV is too close for comfort, the fact that she maintained a lead through the worst week of her campaign (according to the worthless press) and Trump still can't get above 44% hopefully keeps the JCPL from spiking.
posted by chris24 at 6:01 AM on September 15, 2016 [15 favorites]


I am 100 percent certain that Donald Trump has told Peter Thiel that he wants him on the Supreme Court.

I am also 100 percent certain that Donald Trump has told no less than a dozen people that exact same thing. "Oh, you have a law degree? You should be on the Supreme Court. I'm gonna make that happen."
posted by Etrigan at 6:02 AM on September 15, 2016 [44 favorites]


Donald Trump has made it clear, sources close to Thiel claim? And yet spokespersons for both men emphatically deny such conversation has ever taken place, and it's obvious that Thiel would never be vetted for the bench, but sure, let's pretend this isn't weird, baseless gossip masquerading as... oh, it's HuffPo. LOL. Never mind.

Sigh. Welcome to September in an election year at Metafilter, I guess?
posted by palomar at 6:03 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


Elizabeth Warren asks newly-chatty FBI chief to explain why DOJ didn't prosecute banksters

“You explained these actions by noting your view that ‘the American people deserve those details in a case of intense public interest,’” Warren wrote to Comey. “If Secretary Clinton’s email server was of sufficient ‘interest’ to establish a new FBI standard of transparency, then surely the criminal prosecution of those responsible for the 2008 financial crisis should be subject to the same level of transparency.”
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:04 AM on September 15, 2016 [125 favorites]


And yet spokespersons for both men emphatically deny such conversation has ever taken place

Of course they deny it, such a conversation would be illegal. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Trump kind of has a record of denying the truth when it makes him look bad.
posted by Roommate at 6:05 AM on September 15, 2016


You have a right to have a good job.

Wait, wait, wait, so Trump is now going to be pro-union and against at-will employment? He's going to push for living wages? Of course he isn't. Trump doesn't think anybody has the right to a good job, or any job. His whole catch phrase is "you're fired". He doesn't get to say this to minority communities and have that count as a genuine attempt at being non-racist. It's not that it's just implausible that he cares--what he said just there is against every fiber of his being and everybody should know that.
posted by Sequence at 6:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


Ivanka tells Cosmo new benefit for marrieds only: "to benefit the mother who has given birth to the child if they have legal married status"

And that's how you get Republicans to go along with the plan. It's only for nice 50s style Father Knows Best families. Gay men, common law spouses, and single parents need not apply.
posted by Talez at 6:07 AM on September 15, 2016 [47 favorites]


That article is particularly interesting/funny at how quickly Ivanka bounces out of there as soon as the interviewer starts actually pressing her for answers. A Cosmopolitan magazine interviewer is showing more tenacity than 99% of the journalists and news media covering this stupid election.
posted by like_neon at 6:09 AM on September 15, 2016 [65 favorites]


And yet spokespersons for both men emphatically deny such conversation has ever taken place

Of course they deny it, such a conversation would be illegal.


It's not illegal to say "I want you to have this particular job in my administration", it's illegal to say "If you support me, I'll give you this particular job."
posted by Etrigan at 6:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


The tweet does not seem to link to the article, here it is.
posted by like_neon at 6:14 AM on September 15, 2016


On Fox & Friends, Trump attacks the black woman pastor who asked him to stop politicking in her church. Calls her a nervous mess.

Outreach.
posted by chris24 at 6:17 AM on September 15, 2016 [35 favorites]


He doesn't get to say this to minority communities and have that count as a genuine attempt at being non-racist.

Thanks. The grading on a curve is getting so disrespectful and mind boggling.
posted by zutalors! at 6:26 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


I would love it if we could just TRY not to post obvious gossip dressed up as news, and then justify it with mealy-mouthed excuses like, "well, it COULD be true...".
posted by palomar at 6:28 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


That article is particularly interesting/funny at how quickly Ivanka bounces out of there as soon as the interviewer starts actually pressing her for answers. A Cosmopolitan magazine interviewer is showing more tenacity than 99% of the journalists and news media covering this stupid election.

If I had to guess why, I'd say that Cosmo isn't part of the courtier class of national political journalists, so they don't have to worry about flattering the people that they cover in order to maintain "access". Again, the media elite isn't stupid, they do this on purpose.
posted by indubitable at 6:31 AM on September 15, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm a little worried what the ETs are going to think of us when they get videos of Trump in a few years or whenever.

"No intelligent life."
"Arrrrre you sure? There's definitely some signalling on certain EM bands, and I'm pretty sure that photo is of a settlement of some ki-"
"I said NO INTELLIGENT LIFE."
posted by um at 6:33 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


Apples-to Apples comparison '12 to '16 shows Latino vote is net +12 larger lead for Dem in '16

2012: Obama 65% - Romney 26%

2016: Clinton 70% - Trump 19%
posted by chris24 at 6:40 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


To get the sort of opposite of the Cosmo interviewer, take a look at how the courtiers interview Gary Johnson. They know exactly which buttons to push to fluster the interviewee and make them look like a fool. "What should be done with Aleppo?", asking about an obscure city in Syria instead of the less nonsensical, "What should be done with Syria?", then acting incredulous when the interviewee hasn't heard of Aleppo. "Should we raise the retirement age?" when there is no national retirement age, and requiring the candidate to either ask for clarification or to run with what they're given.

They do this because they know they'll never have to suck up to Gary Johnson. Try to find them doing that for Donald Trump. I'll wait.
posted by indubitable at 6:45 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


> I am also 100 percent certain that Donald Trump has told no less than a dozen people that exact same thing. "Oh, you have a law degree? You should be on the Supreme Court. I'm gonna make that happen."

"I've got this thing and it's fucking golden, and, uh, uh, I'm just not giving it up for fuckin' nothing. I'm not gonna do it." (Ha. TIL Blagojevich was also on The Apprentice.)
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 6:50 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


an obscure city in Syria

I guess it's not Damascus but it's also not just some random place like Al-Qamishli.

What is a Leppo, again?
posted by dis_integration at 6:52 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's been a really interesting phenomenon recently that has to do with traditional fashion/lifestyle magazines hiring a bunch of bad-ass women of color journalists. I think that they're trying to figure out how to stay relevant, and they've realized that their demographic is 1. a lot more racially and ethnically diverse than it used to be and 2. looking for social and political journalism that actually speaks to their perspectives and concerns. So yeah, I'm not super surprised to find out that a writer for Cosmo is actually pushing Ivanka Trump a bit.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:53 AM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]




What is a Leppo, again?

Five dollars, same as in town.
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Aleppo was the most underrated Marx Brother. Yuge talent, yuge. Class act. Way funnier than Harpo Marx, or Karl Marx, or Shemp Marx." - Trump [fake (probably)]
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 6:56 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Should we raise the retirement age?" when there is no national retirement age

There is a full benefit eligibility age for Social Security which is typically referred to as the retirement age. It was 65, is now 66 for people born 1943-1954, and will rise to 67 for those born after 1960.

And honestly he had a shitty answer for an obvious question.
posted by chris24 at 6:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


Aleppo is in the news often enough that I don't think we can claim with any honesty that it's an obscure location. But leaving that aside, Gary Johnson isn't running for nice guy down at the pub that we sometimes have a chat with on game night, he's running for president. He's kind of supposed to have a basic knowledge of current events.
posted by palomar at 6:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [28 favorites]


I guess it's not Damascus but it's also not just some random place like Al-Qamishli.

OK, and without looking, can you talk about the current strategic situation there? Can you point it out on an unlabeled map? What are the major industries and cultural sites? Which faction currently controls it?

There is a full benefit eligibility age for Social Security which is typically referred to as the retirement age

There's also, just for example, a retirement age for the civil service, a different retirement age for the military, and so on.

Look, I'm not denying that a policy expert on each of these areas would be able to roll with the question and keep moving. I'm giving these as examples to point out that the mainstream political media is perfectly capable of throwing tough questions out there... as long as the person they're interviewing is not powerful.
posted by indubitable at 7:03 AM on September 15, 2016


And Cosmo has actually been crushing it for quite a while now, maybe a year or so -- lots of articles about issues pertaining to intersectional feminism, gender, reproductive rights, pretty much the whole host of issues favored by progressive young women. I'm not at all surprised to see that interview published there.
posted by palomar at 7:04 AM on September 15, 2016 [27 favorites]


OK, and without looking, can you talk about the current strategic situation there? Can you point it out on an unlabeled map? What are the major industries and cultural sites? Which faction currently controls it?

Yes, you're right, these are the caliber of questions we should expect presidential hopefuls to be asked!
posted by palomar at 7:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [28 favorites]


I feel like people simultaneously try to shame others for not taking Gary Johnson seriously and also not feel like he needs to be held to any serious standards.
posted by zutalors! at 7:07 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


How Fair Coverage Gets Trumped | All In | MSNBC

With Jonathan Chait and Rebecca Traister.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:08 AM on September 15, 2016


There is a full benefit eligibility age for Social Security which is typically referred to as the retirement age.

70 is currently the age where delayed retirement credits max out. Gary Johnson wants to raise the full retirement age to 3 years beyond the current maximum benefit level with credit for delaying benefits, and 5 years beyond the current full retirement age. That is utterly draconian, not just for African Americans, but for anyone in a manual labor profession. Really just for everyone. There was no justification to raise the retirement age above 65, and certainly zero for raising it even further, as raising the retirement age does very little to bring the trust funds into actuarial balance (Table 2), [.pdf].
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:11 AM on September 15, 2016 [25 favorites]


Yes, you're right, these are the caliber of questions we should expect presidential hopefuls to be asked!

They're really not. Issues this specific are what policy advisors are for. They study the issue, come up with policy recommendations, and run them by the executive to get broad guidance and final decisions. The president is way too busy to be spending a couple days in a research library poring over the details of one town in one tiny country that's currently undergoing a tremendously complex civil war.
posted by indubitable at 7:12 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm actually surprised that Johnson wants to talk about retirement age at all. Shouldn't the correct Libertarian answer be, "There shouldn't be one, because there shouldn't be social security"?
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:12 AM on September 15, 2016 [16 favorites]


Gary Johnson wants to raise the full retirement age to 3 years beyond the current maximum benefit level with credit for delaying benefits, and 5 years beyond the current full retirement age.

Nah, what Gary Johnson and his libertarian gang *want* is to abolish Social Security outright.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


Dang, actually I need to start reading Cosmo again

Hillary Clinton's "Deplorables" Comment Is Not Wrong
An alarming number of Trump supporters have offensive and inaccurate beliefs about race.
posted by like_neon at 7:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


So... we shouldn't ask presidential candidates actual questions about the issues they'll have to face as president? What a bizarre stance.
posted by palomar at 7:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


And yeah, someone more competent than Gary Johnson, like say Hillary Clinton, would've just mentally rewritten the question as, "What do we do about Syria?" and answered that.
posted by indubitable at 7:14 AM on September 15, 2016


Aleppo is to some degree a synecdoche for the situation in Syria like "Washington" is for our government.
posted by zutalors! at 7:15 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


Out of curiosity, who reads Cosmo nowadays? (Yes, Captain Obvious, I know the answer is "women", but how big is their audience and would they be interested in politics?)
posted by pxe2000 at 7:16 AM on September 15, 2016


There was no justification to raise the retirement age above 65, and certainly zero for raising it even further, as raising the retirement age does very little to bring the trust funds into actuarial balance.

Not to derail, but it's my (layman's) understanding that *lowering* the retirement age frees up jobs for younger workers and winds up bringing in more revenue overall, especially since younger retirees are still pretty spry - low healthcare costs. Anyone back that up?
posted by notsnot at 7:18 AM on September 15, 2016


how big is their audience and would they be interested in politics?

According to Hearst, 17 million readers a month and 35 million users/month for their website. I guess that's big enough numbers that we can guess a significant number of them are interested in current events/politics. Their media kit has some demographic info.
posted by like_neon at 7:22 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


OK, and without looking, can you talk about the current strategic situation there? A little.
Can you point it out on an unlabeled map? I bet I could get within 50km
What are the major industries and cultural sites? Guns, death, and a bunch of unexploded munitions? I know the Great Mosque got blowed the f' up.
Which faction currently controls it? I'm under the impression that the Assad regime is still fighting off a bunch of shifting and various anti-Regime islamist forces, like the Islamic front.

But I'm not running for president. If I was, I'd be reading about this and other foreign policy situations for at least an hour every night. It's important to be able to form your own basic ideas so that you know how to interpret and parse the conflicting advice from your policy advisors.

If you know nothing, not even the basics, then what do you do when your advisors disagree and look to you to resolve it?
posted by dis_integration at 7:24 AM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


(Yes, Captain Obvious, I know the answer is "women", but how big is their audience and would they be interested in politics?)

Uhhhhhhhh, why would young women NOT be interested in politics, given that their very bodies have been turned into political battlegrounds?
posted by palomar at 7:25 AM on September 15, 2016 [53 favorites]


it's my (layman's) understanding that *lowering* the retirement age frees up jobs for younger workers and winds up bringing in more revenue overall, especially since younger retirees are still pretty spry - low healthcare costs

I'm not aware of any official sources which have examined that, at least recently, there might be something deep in the CBO archives. It's not within the bounds of "normal" policy discussion. There might be a study out there somewhere, which I'd like to see.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:25 AM on September 15, 2016



Ivanka tells Cosmo new benefit for marrieds only: "to benefit the mother who has given birth to the child if they have legal married status"

To beat this metaphorical horse a little more, I'd like to see a follow-up on whether the couple needs to be married at the time of birth or just at the time of conception. Policy is in the details. Let's underline this cruel, stupid policy in the public eye a bit longer. C'mon journalists, you know you like to ask questions about fucking.
posted by puddledork at 7:27 AM on September 15, 2016 [25 favorites]


Dang, actually I need to start reading Cosmo again

I think online Cosmo may have different content than published Cosmo.
posted by asteria at 7:27 AM on September 15, 2016


Claire McCaskill: DC Partly To Blame For Donald Trump's Rise | Morning Joe | MSNBC

That's the note the clip ends on, but she spends most of it talking about the thin reporting on him.

In many ways the press is like the man who lost his watch and searches under the streetlight because the light is better there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:28 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


why would young women NOT be interested in politics, given that their very bodies have been turned into political battlegrounds?
I understand that, BUT Cosmo has traditionally run material that is at best fluffy escapism and at worst dangerously incorrect, which made me wonder if the political material was actually being taken seriously/reaching their audience.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:30 AM on September 15, 2016


Talking about retirement age next to median age of death doesn't make a lot of sense. You really need to consider life expectancy from the age people enter the work force, which if we call it 18 adds around 6 years to those other numbers which include infant and teen mortality.
posted by phearlez at 7:31 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


Aleppo is to some degree a synecdoche for the situation in Syria like "Washington" is for our government.
posted by zutalors!


On this discussion, I do feel that it is entirely fair to raise Aleppo specifically when talking about Syria. A lot of the current very fraught negotiations, which the US is involved in, are concerned with how to establish a ceasefire in Aleppo and provide aid to the besieged civilians and prevent war crimes. This is distinct from other questions on Syria like how to manage Turkey's involvement in the conflict.

In fact the deeper issue this raises is that it is reasonable to expect a US presidential candidate, at the bare minimum, to read the national and international news every day. This seems at least a very low minimum standard. A person who does this would know about Aleppo. This is in part what makes Trump terrifying as a candidate.
posted by Erberus at 7:31 AM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


A presidential candidate should be able to speak briefly and intelligently about wars in which the country they're asking to lead has interests.

They don't need to know the exact situation on the ground right now but they should know that rebels in parts of a large city called Aleppo has been besieged by government forces for years and is the international byword for the war and refugee crisis.

That's not a high bar and it's shocking to me that only one (maybe two, Jill Stein is being obnoxious and trolly but she's not necessarily stupid) of the four people running above 0.5% are able to do this.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:35 AM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


Well, since Cosmo has been running material like this for at least the past several months, if not longer (and if I had time to pinpoint the exact moment that they started running more political material, I would, alas), and since I see their articles circulating pretty widely, I'd say yes, they're reaching their intended audience.

There's actually a rather rich tradition of young women's magazines doing this kind of reporting. Mademoiselle was renowned for it, Marie Claire and Glamour were the ones doing it when I was in my 20's and early 30's, and now Cosmo.

Maybe the reason it comes as a shock to so many is because our culture so badly denigrates the intellectual abilities of young women.
posted by palomar at 7:37 AM on September 15, 2016 [59 favorites]


Hillary Clinton’s campaign just admitted she has a real problem
Our campaign readily admits that running against a candidate as controversial as Donald Trump means it is harder to be heard on what you aspire for the country’s future and it is incumbent on us to work harder to make sure voters hear that vision.

posted by T.D. Strange at 7:37 AM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump's medical letter is out and the cholesterol and blood pressure numbers are not credible. No medical history, either.
posted by stolyarova at 7:38 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


OK, and without looking, can you talk about the current strategic situation there? Can you point it out on an unlabeled map? What are the major industries and cultural sites? Which faction currently controls it?


I get what you are saying, but there's a difference of standard here: I don't expect the average person on the street or the internet to be able to discuss the strategic situation or the major industries of any foreign city; it isn't part of their day to day concerns, generally. Somebody running for President, however, should be briefed enough by his or her team to know that Aleppo is a city in Syria, an area where there is a major ongoing international crisis, and make the connection from there to some talking points.

I expect my political leaders, like my boss, to have an awareness of situations going on that I may not necessarily have on my day-to-day radar; I also expect and/or hope that when they need more detail on a situation that they know who they can turn to for the specific information needed to make a decision or create a plan. No one person is going to be the sum of knowledge on a topic; what you want is a person who (a) knows enough to at least be conversant with the basic facts of a situation that impacts their role (which is why the President gets intelligence briefings so that situations hopefully don't come out of nowhere) and (b) curious enough to seek out more information when needed to make an informed decision.

I haven't seen Gary's interview or the context of the question; if they were talking about something to do with China or Korea and then sprang the Aleppo question on him, I would not be surprised if he floundered. But if it was in the context of a discussion around Syria, the refugee crisis, ISIS, etc...then I have to say it doesn't look good for somebody applying for the job Gary is.

That being said, it would be nice to see interviewers sit down with Trump and press for the same level of detail for precisely the same reason.
posted by nubs at 7:38 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


(I like that the example of Cosmo's dangerous reporting was super recent... oh, wait. 1993. It's almost like something might have changed at the magazine in the past 23 years.)
posted by palomar at 7:39 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]




Trump's medical letter is out and the cholesterol and blood pressure numbers are not credible.

Why aren't they credible?
posted by drezdn at 7:46 AM on September 15, 2016


Are literally any of the numbers in that letter credible? His height, maybe?
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:47 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


Maybe the reason it comes as a shock to so many is because our culture so badly denigrates the intellectual abilities of young women.
I really don't want to derail this thread, but I did want to respond to this. I'm not surprised that a women's magazine has run well-written political coverage, since (as you mentioned) Marie Claire, Glamour, and (I would argue) Vogue have run great articles on political and social issues. I'm surprised that Cosmo is running this because they don't have a great record for this kind of journalism. I'm old enough to remember their inaccurate coverage of AIDS, but in recent years they've made racist gaffes. Plus, longtime Cosmo editor Helen Gurley Brown had some retrograde attitudes. Finding out they're running good material on the election is like finding out that Maxim has a surprisingly comprehensive series of articles on the Koch Brothers.

I'm ready to drop this, but I did want to respond to this point. I've been accused of harboring internalized misogynistic beliefs and attitudes in the past, but my surprise at Cosmo running well-considered political articles didn't come from those beliefs.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:47 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


The whole medical history issue is a dodge that moves people from pointing out that Clinton has way more experience than Trump to an argument where it's easier for Trump to win (ie. who is healthier).
posted by drezdn at 7:47 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


I am a long-distance runner in my late 20s and those numbers would be good for me.
posted by stolyarova at 7:48 AM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


> I just tried to picture Gary Johnson's "team" and came up with a visual image of a pug, a banana, and a 1987 copy of newsweek sitting on his kitchen table

The Guild Judges would also accept a coffee cup, a toaster, and a woman's black Ferragamo shoe.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 7:52 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


also, if dude is 236 pounds i am marie of roumania
posted by murphy slaw at 7:52 AM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


There's a big Gary Johnson billboard near my work. It's sole reason for voting Johnson? "He's electable."
posted by drezdn at 7:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


Jesus, today's front page on the NYT website has, right next to each other:
  • Article headlined Clinton and Trump Locked in Tight Race, New Poll Shows
  • An article from Jay-Z and Molly Crabapple (and others) denouncing the drug war as an "epic fail."
  • SUCH WHIPLASH HOW ARE WE LIVING IN THESE TIMES.
    posted by joyceanmachine at 7:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    '...His testosterone is 84 gazillion.'
    posted by beerperson at 7:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    '...His testosterone is 84 gazillion.'

    That is pretty high T for a 72 year old man who doesn't exercise. But, it actually makes sense.
    posted by dis_integration at 7:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    There's a big Gary Johnson billboard near my work. It's sole reason for voting Johnson? "He's electable."
    Too bad he didn't go with this one.
    posted by pxe2000 at 7:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I guess the media will pretend the previous riduculous doctor's note didn't happen though by any good standard every mention of this new letter should contain the disclaimer "given the campaign's previous release about Mr. Trump's health, we have no reason to judge the accuracy of either" or some such.

    Also 116 / 70 for blood pressure? For a man who is at all overweight that doesn't seem credible. I didn't even get that low when I weighed 160 (I'm six foot to give context), was training for a half marathon, and a woman half his age. I mean I guess it could happen but it's not like an older man having somewhat elevated blood pressure would be a disqualifying health issue. So it seems like a pointless lie. Like he can't be wrong or less than perfect on anything.
    posted by R343L at 7:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [15 favorites]


    pxe2000, how many other media outlets can we decide aren't worthy of our regard because their founder was problematic? (As for the "racist gaffe"... I mean, the real beef here was that in an article about beauty do's and don'ts, they didn't put any women of color in the "Hello Gorgeous" section. Most of the beauty don'ts were actually displayed on white women. I agree that it's not great that they didn't include women of color in the section of the article that pointed out how pretty people are, but... this seems like a paper-thin reason to push back on the validity of Cosmo's non-beauty reporting.)
    posted by palomar at 7:59 AM on September 15, 2016


    It doesn't really matter what the exact numbers are, but the fact that he released numbers that are obviously false and expects that to settle the matter speaks volumes.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 7:59 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    We need a pre-debate weigh-in and photo op.
    posted by nicepersonality at 7:59 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Our First NoFap President

    Also he can see through walls
    posted by beerperson at 8:00 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    So it seems like a pointless lie. Like he can't be wrong or less than perfect on anything.

    Trump once shot a 34, 38-under par with 5 holes in one!
    posted by T.D. Strange at 8:01 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I'm 6'1 and 270. My BP is regularly 110/70. Can we stop the fat shaming?
    posted by BigVACub at 8:01 AM on September 15, 2016 [28 favorites]


    Someone ask Trump how fast he can run a mile.
    posted by drezdn at 8:04 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Aleppo specifically had been in the news the day before Johnson's interview due to an alleged chlorine attack as well as the ongoing humanitarian crisis there. It wasn't a gotcha question, it was a thing that was highly visible that anybody with a passing familiarity with foreign affairs that day should have been aware of.
    posted by TwoWordReview at 8:05 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Trump once shot a 34, 38-under par with 5 holes in one!

    He has claimed that his golf game is PGA-level. (Many other people have claimed that he shamelessly cheats.)
    posted by soren_lorensen at 8:05 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Clinton has released a letter, Trump has now released a letter that is not that different. Both of them are healthy enough to survive presidency, as 60-70ish people go, so I'm really hoping they, and the media, and we can move on to discuss things that might actually make a difference to voters now.

    Like, maybe, the fact that one of the candidates is a serious leader who cares about making the country better, and the other is an EVIL CIRCUS CLOWN.
    posted by kythuen at 8:07 AM on September 15, 2016 [21 favorites]


    He has claimed that his golf game is PGA-level. (Many other people have claimed that he shamelessly cheats.)

    So THAT'S why he sponsored the Simpsons for membership at Mar-a-Lago!
    posted by Pope Guilty at 8:08 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    how many other media outlets can we decide aren't worthy of our regard because their founder was problematic?
    I said I wanted to drop this, but since you keep bringing it up: Cosmo has (a) never positioned itself as a source of hard news (in the same way that Maxim has not), and has been proudly apolitical; (b) been run by people who have some shittier-than-expected attitudes towards her readership than many of her peers (yes, worse in some ways than Anna Wintour); and (c) has given advice that's at best questionable and at worst dangerous. With some women's magazines, I'm not surprised that they're the source of good journalism. Cosmo's reputation precedes it, and I am (pleasantly) surprised that they're running comprehensive articles that resonate with the electorate.

    Now that I've defended myself, I'm looking forward to discussing the election. Can we get back to that?
    posted by pxe2000 at 8:10 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]






    I'm finding this criticism of Cosmo too close for comfort as a criticism of women who would read it. We all know no one's primary source of news is a fashion magazine, right? So why the concern trolling? THAT'S what makes it suspiciously sexist feeling.
    posted by agregoli at 8:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    What is going on where Rolling Stone is allowed to have good reporting but not Cosmopolitan?
    posted by Pope Guilty at 8:14 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Mod note: I think it's gonna be awful hard to get into a satisfyingly nuanced discussion of everything involved in the history and perception and journalistic bona fides of women-targeted magazines in and around everything else in here; probably better to let this actually actually drop at this point.
    posted by cortex (staff) at 8:16 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Tom the Dancing Bug: The View from Trump Tower

    Some context just in case.
    posted by dis_integration at 8:18 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    BigVAClub: I don't think it's fat shaming to acknowledge that most people - of any weight - do not have BP numbers like that and that people who are overweight often but not always have somewhat higher BP than average. It's all probabilities and I wouldn't normally care except that it's coming from a campaign that can't be consistent or tell the truth. Why the delay in releasing his health history if this is the honest truth?

    That said, I agree we shouldn't fat shame and I apologize for it. Trump is disqualifying for real reasons.
    posted by R343L at 8:18 AM on September 15, 2016


    Tom the Dancing Bug: The View from Trump Tower

    Heh. I like the inclusion of the McDonalds in Jersey where Christie goes to fetch Trump's lunch.
    posted by tonycpsu at 8:20 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]




    It's kinda funny to me that insinuating Trump wants to sleep with his daughter is cool, calling him a sociopath is cool, but fat is a bridge too far.

    Fat is not worse than being a (supposedly) incestuous sociopath, y'all. I say this as someone who is the same weight as Trump but about a foot shorter.
    posted by asteria at 8:27 AM on September 15, 2016


    Shaming somebody for being an incestuous sociopath is fine. Shaming somebody for being fat is not fine.

    ♫ The More You Know ♫
    posted by Pope Guilty at 8:30 AM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    So despite my sick politics obsession, this story somehow slipped entirely through the cracks for me. What's interesting to me here is that the GOP leadership has seemingly developed an interest in halting the politically-motivated show trials of their even-more-right-wing colleagues.

    GOP negotiators reach deal to postpone IRS impeachment vote:
    The compromise offers both sides a chance to claim victory. Jordan (R-Ohio) and the Freedom Caucus have been pushing for impeachment proceedings since January, a process that usually begins with the person accused of impeachment presenting his or her defense during Judiciary Committee proceedings. But Goodlatte (R-Va.) has refused to take action, steadfastly disagreeing that Koskinen deserves impeachment.

    [...]

    Conservatives say Koskinen impeded a congressional investigation when subpoenaed documents related to the IRS-tea party controversy were destroyed on his watch. Koskinen says he had nothing to do with lower-level employees erasing backup tapes of emails written by Lois Lerner, the IRS official who led the department that singled out conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status.
    TPM: Why Delaying The Controversial IRS Impeachment Vote Is A Win-Win For GOP:
    For moderates and Republican leadership, the vote put them in a politically untenable position. On the one hand, many Republicans felt that impeachment was too severe a punishment for Koskinen and impeaching a sub-cabinet official was unprecedented. But, the IRS is a frequent conservative punching bag and voting against impeachment could also be viewed as moderates going too easy on the IRS. There was concern for how constituents back home would respond.

    Republican leaders, meanwhile, had vowed to stay neutral on the issue, but the concern was growing that such a high-profile vote ahead of the election could send a message to voters that the House was more focused on politics than it was passing more pressing legislation.
    posted by palindromic at 8:32 AM on September 15, 2016


    Trump Jr. just made a Holocaust joke.
    posted by chris24 at 8:34 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    of course he did
    posted by murphy slaw at 8:36 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    At press time, sources confirmed that an aide was gingerly carrying a sleeping Kaine to bed.

    I wish this was my actual job. Why can't the good parts of the Onion come true? It's always their nightmare scenarios that get realized.
    posted by gladly at 8:37 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    @MattGertz:
    There are five articles in NY Times today on Hillary's health, 3 A1

    Plus an editorial, a column, and an op-ed

    Nothing on Trump Foundation
    posted by octothorpe at 8:38 AM on September 15, 2016 [28 favorites]


    It's already been conclusively established that the NYT is an aggressively pro-Trump propaganda outfit. It's no longer a credible source of actual news, if it was at all since 2001.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 8:42 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    By "indiscrepancy," does Junior really mean "discrepancy" or "indiscretion" or something else?
    posted by zakur at 8:42 AM on September 15, 2016


    My brother just texted me: "You don't warm up gas chambers."
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:43 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    In Trump's America, our gas chambers will be the warmest! They'll be tremendous, the best ones ever. Everyone will say so.
    posted by mochapickle at 8:46 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    My brother just texted me: "You don't warm up gas chambers."

    Yes you certainly do. Hydrogen cyanide gas condenses at 26C/78F. The chamber is warmed up to 27C/80F before any gas chamber executions take place.

    In other news I read way too much Wikipedia in my free time.
    posted by Talez at 8:46 AM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Trump Jr. just made a Holocaust joke.

    I have absolutely no idea what this word salad means, but it is completely unacceptable. Fuck.
    posted by Sophie1 at 8:47 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    From the 'It's About the Supreme Court!' files:

    Scott Lemieux: North Carolina’s Fragile Voting Rights Victory:
    It’s well documented that voter ID and other ballot restrictions disproportionately impact low-income and minority voters. What’s been revealing and troubling about this case is that North Carolina officials have barely bothered to hide their discriminatory intent, but made it shamelessly explicit. The office of the speaker of the North Carolina House of Representatives asked the North Carolina elections board for “a breakdown, by race, of those registered voters in your database that do not have a driver’s license number.” Following yet another GOP data request, another Republican legislator lamented the lack of data for Hispanic voters. Republican lawmakers wanted voting data broken down by race for a simple—and illegal—reason: to help them craft measures that would make it more difficult for racial minorities to vote.

    The failure of a single Republican-nominated Supreme Court justice to find constitutional infirmities with the North Carolina law underscores the contradictions at the heart of the Court’s 2013 Shelby County v. Holder decision to eviscerate the Voting Rights Act. With its highly restrictive package of voting laws, North Carolina made a mockery of Chief Justice’s Roberts’s assertion in that ruling that racial discrimination in voting is no longer a substantial concern, and that Congress therefore lacks the authority to pass the preclearance requirements that it had determined, after extensive hearings, were necessary and appropriate. If asking for racial data, as North Carolina legislators did, and then carefully tailoring a law to suppress the votes of racial minorities isn’t evidence of discriminatory intent, it’s not clear that anything could be. And yet the Republican half of the Supreme Court sees nothing objectionable in what state officials did.
    posted by palindromic at 8:47 AM on September 15, 2016 [16 favorites]


    Yes you certainly do.

    Wow, okay.
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:48 AM on September 15, 2016


    Um, let's not discuss gas chamber operations. At all.
    posted by filthy light thief at 8:48 AM on September 15, 2016 [44 favorites]


    It's already been conclusively established that the NYT is an aggressively pro-Trump propaganda outfit. It's no longer a credible source of actual news, if it was at all since 2001.

    uh huh
    posted by beerperson at 8:50 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]





    NOW @realDonaldTrump: "The people don't have the teleprompter working, but that's ok."


    Better turn on @CNN

    John Berman
    co-anchor of CNN's @EarlyStart & @ThisHour.

    Pretty shameless CNN.
    posted by zutalors! at 8:54 AM on September 15, 2016


    asteria: I could slam Trump all day long and sleep like a baby at night. Because it's Trump.

    Quick note: babies move a lot in their sleep - instead, I'd suggest sleeping like a cat.


    On Fox & Friends, Trump attacks the black woman pastor who asked him to stop politicking in her church. Calls her a nervous mess.

    Outreach.


    Actually, I think he reacts to the audience he thinks he has. Example A: his Mexico meeting, followed by the Phoenix rally - flopped from "we didn't talk about the wall, and we had a good discussion" to "Mexico is going to pay for the wall, 100%, they don't know it yet" because that's what your base wants to hear (but that lead to the Twitter "battle" over the wall and such). Example B: say nice things in an African American church, don't fight the hecklers there, but then go on Fox and Friends, your bastion of white support and heckle back, again for your base.

    He's a coward and a bully.
    posted by filthy light thief at 8:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Election 2016: The Death of Shame
    posted by nubs at 8:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    It's perfectly understandable that if you hang out with literal non-metaphorical neo-Nazis 24/7 some of their language will rub off on you and we should be forgiving of him for it.
    posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I just tried to picture Gary Johnson's "team" and came up with a visual image of a pug, a banana, and a 1987 copy of newsweek sitting on his kitchen table

    See synonyms at.
    posted by phunniemee at 8:56 AM on September 15, 2016



    On Fox & Friends, Trump attacks the black woman pastor who asked him to stop politicking in her church. Calls her a nervous mess.

    Outreach.


    Anyone who confronts him in any way should expect an attack, I would think.
    posted by zutalors! at 8:56 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    The NYT this election cycle is basically the The Grey Jill Stein Voter. Of courseTrump is awful, they don't even have to waste breath telling you that, but look at all this questionable stuffy Hillary may or may not have done! Isn't that shocking? Doesn't it....holy shit where'd this racist dystopia come from? Jeez, whoever's job it was to prevent that must be feeling pretty stupid right now!
    posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [49 favorites]


    Trump is really trying to turn deplorables into something.

    Why can't he just come out and say it? "These people are just hard working joes and they just want to be able to say whatever is on their racist and bigoted minds without being called out on it".

    Don't beat around the fucking bush. Be proud of your views!
    posted by Talez at 8:59 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    New Ad Hammers Trump as Too Impulsive to Allow Near the Nuclear Button
    Come for the Daisy ad, stay for the tiny hands.
    posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Paul Ryan just said that Trump should release his tax returns.

    Well well, Speaker Ryan. Nice of you and that barely calcified spine of yours to show up.
    posted by Sophie1 at 9:03 AM on September 15, 2016 [48 favorites]


    Could you imagine if a Democrat didn't want to release their tax return?
    posted by Talez at 9:05 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    New Ad Hammers Trump as Too Impulsive to Allow Near the Nuclear Button
    Come for the Daisy ad, stay for the tiny hands.


    I'd love to see the casting call for Trump Hands.
    posted by dis_integration at 9:07 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Washington Post: Poll: Nearly half of Americans say voter fraud occurs often:
    The Post-ABC poll finds 46 percent of registered voters say voter fraud -- described as multiple votes being cast by a single person, or an ineligible person casting a ballot -- occurs very or somewhat often, while 50 percent say it occurs occasionally or rarely. Over two-thirds of Trump voters say voter fraud occurs often, compared with less than one-third of Clinton supporters. Whatever the partisan differences, at least one-fifth of every major demographic and political group says voter fraud occurs somewhat or very often.

    The prevalence of voter fraud appears to be widely overestimated. A 2012 investigation by the News21 investigative reporting project published in The Washington Post found only 2,068 cases of alleged voter fraud had been reported since 2000, including only 10 cases of voter impersonation over the entire period. A separate study by Loyola Law School professor Justen Levitt found 241 potentially fraudulent ballots over a 14-year period out of 1 billion ballots cast.
    Charles Pierce: People Have a Right to Vote. Period.:
    Gee, Washington Post, I wonder how this could have happened?

    Do you suppose it could have anything to do with the fact that this issue often is presented in our news columns as an Opinions Vary kind of story even though every last shred of empirical evidence says that one side is right and the other side is very, very wrong? This is Paul Krugman's Experts Disagree On Shape Of Earth in action, with real and detrimental consequences for the country.

    WaPo paywall workaround for Chrome users: right-click the link and select 'Open link in incognito window'
    posted by palindromic at 9:12 AM on September 15, 2016 [42 favorites]


    This picture of Trump with Little Miss Flint is … everything.

    @ddale8: Little Miss Flint met both Trump and Obama this year. (click through for side-by-side on the pictures)
    posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [46 favorites]


    Well well, Speaker Ryan. Nice of you and that barely calcified spine of yours to show up.

    This slur on the bravery and integrity of the chondrichthyes is unfair to an ancient and distinguished metazoan clade, and I won't stand for it.
    posted by biogeo at 9:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Trump may as well be up in front of these rich bastards and say "You know who's going to be paying for all this shit I'm suggesting? Not you! *wink*"

    It'd be quicker and less painful for everyone involved.
    posted by Talez at 9:14 AM on September 15, 2016


    Seriously, I have never in all my life been so worried about a nuclear exchange actually happening as I am right now. (I probably would have worried more in 1982 or so, but I don't think I knew what a nuclear bomb was at the time.)

    Trump thinks a small scale nuclear conflict is winnable. You don't have to be a geopolitics specialist to see how disastrous even a small-scale exchange which did not escalate would be, or to see the likelihood of escalation. Trump could actually provoke global nuclear war because he is too stupid to understand why it's a bad idea. Even Reagan was smarter than that. Seriously, if the choice were Trump or Zombie Reagan, I would be out there door-knocking for Ronnie at this point. Trump makes Reagan look like FDR.
    posted by Frowner at 9:14 AM on September 15, 2016 [48 favorites]


    It's already been conclusively established that the NYT is an aggressively pro-Trump propaganda outfit. It's no longer a credible source of actual news, if it was at all since 2001.

    For what it's worth, the NYT hasn't endorsed a Republican since Eisenhower.
    posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:16 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Trump thinks a small scale nuclear conflict is winnable. You don't have to be a geopolitics specialist to see how disastrous even a small-scale exchange which did not escalate would be, or to see the likelihood of escalation. Trump could actually provoke global nuclear war because he is too stupid to understand why it's a bad idea.

    Yesterday I briefly considered what I could do, as an employee of a frequently targeted-for-elimination agency, to insulate myself as best possible from Trump winning. I only got to here.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 9:21 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    At press time, sources confirmed that an aide was gingerly carrying a sleeping Kaine to bed.

    Wait, is Kaine Uncle Dad or Little Timmy?

    What the fuck America
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:22 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Washington Post: Poll: Nearly half of Americans say voter fraud occurs often

    I think my main frustration with this election is exemplified by this. It turns out that if you say or insinuate something often enough, people believe it. Claims that have a good or compelling or just interesting story are easily believed and hard to correct. Half of Americans believe voter fraud happens a lot because it's repeated a lot, even stories that are about how that claim is false highlight that claim in headlines and ledes, etc. Most of the stupid crap about Clinton is the same way: it's repeated often, the news story itself might be "accurate" but the headline is going to just re-enforce whatever false (or at least not very credible) claim is going around that day.
    posted by R343L at 9:23 AM on September 15, 2016 [27 favorites]


    I wonder if many of them are counting vote suppression, which is absolutely a real and prevalent problem.
    posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Shaming somebody for being an incestuous sociopath is fine.

    So it's cool to diagnose people with personality disorders because we're all armchair psychiatrists now? It's okay to partake in a joke which would involve Ivanka being a victim of sexual abuse?

    Good to know.
    posted by asteria at 9:26 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I would be out there door-knocking for Ronnie at this point. Trump makes Reagan look like FDR.

    Yeah, I also lived through the 80s as a terrified kid certain that we were all going to die in a nuclear war but I also at that time was under the impression that our leaders understood the implications of such a conflict. I'm positive that Trump just figures he'll be in his bunker so who the fuck cares.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 9:28 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    This just in! ACLU Pocket Constitutions are back in stock!

    10-packs here ($12+S&H): https://shop.aclu.org/product/ACLU-Pocket-Constitution-of-the-United-States

    Singles here: https://action.aclu.org/secure/free-pocket-constitutions?ms=web_160815_marketing_freeconstitutions_store
    posted by VTX at 9:35 AM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    I wonder if many of them are counting vote suppression, which is absolutely a real and prevalent problem.

    Sadly no. Here's the exact question asked.

    Q: Thinking about voter fraud - like the same person voting multiple times or someone voting who is not eligible - do you think this happens.
    posted by chris24 at 9:36 AM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    ( I probably would have worried more in 1982 or so, but I don't think I knew what a nuclear bomb was at the time. )

    Well, I would have worried more about 1962 or so in 1982, myself. But then, I remember 1962 quite well, knowing as I did what a nuclear explosion was at the.time.
    posted by y2karl at 9:39 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    "Do you think this happens" is a ridiculously low bar. I mean, obviously it happens. There's a handful of people prosecuted for this type of voter fraud every few years. But a few individuals committing this type of fraud (and getting caught at it) does not a threat to our electoral system make.
    posted by biogeo at 9:41 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    He has claimed that his golf game is PGA-level

    Perhaps we could set his health claims to music -- something like this[SLYT], I imagine.
    posted by wenestvedt at 9:41 AM on September 15, 2016


    Politico:
    Lois Lerner, the IRS official who led the department that singled out conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status.
    IT DID NOT DO SO!!! There were a bunch of such groups that sprung up, so of course more got audited!
    posted by notsnot at 9:45 AM on September 15, 2016 [34 favorites]




    > I only got to here.

    jesus

    cold war nightmares and it's 2016

    I take it back, that thing I said in the previous Lamar Smith go-around. I take it all back.
    posted by Westringia F. at 9:48 AM on September 15, 2016


    chris24: "Trump Jr. just made a Holocaust joke."

    I wonder if the pronoun gender mix match was a typo or intentional.
    posted by Mitheral at 9:49 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    McMuffin doesn't mince words on the Holocaust joke:

    "An unsurprising Nazi reference from the "alt-right" movement's presidential campaign. This is the real Trump."
    posted by chris24 at 9:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    I feel like McMullin's messaging has been pretty on-point and maybe we should upgrade him to Real Human Being status. He does seem to be running* as a Trump Spoiler rather than an Everything Spoiler

    *for certain values of "running"
    posted by prize bull octorok at 9:58 AM on September 15, 2016 [16 favorites]


    Here’s Pastor Rev. Faith Green Timmons explaining why she interrupted Trump during his speech in Flint yesterday:

    Yeah, a real "nervous mess." Please pick a fight with this woman, Trump.
    posted by chris24 at 10:01 AM on September 15, 2016 [25 favorites]


    The best response to the Holocaust joke I have seen so far:

    "Calm down he didn't mean like the gas chambers used in the Holocaust he meant the ones used to exterminate sheriffs."
    posted by maxsparber at 10:02 AM on September 15, 2016 [33 favorites]


    I don't get it
    posted by zutalors! at 10:04 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    oh now I get it
    posted by zutalors! at 10:05 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Cuz sheriffs are the ones who wear the 6-pointed stars.
    posted by Mchelly at 10:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    zutalors!, think stars.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    RYAN: Your son made a gas chamber reference?
    TRUMP: The death penalty one, not the Jew one.
    RYAN:
    TRUMP: There's all kinds of 'em, you know!

    [fake] [not the gas chamber reference, that's--that's real. ahaha. *sobs* this particular exchange is fake though.]

    *cries, longs for alcohol*
    posted by yasaman at 10:11 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    zutalors!, think stars.

    yeah haha I did get there after a little while, recalling the previous tweet that was explained away as about sheriffs.
    posted by zutalors! at 10:14 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Yeah, my first thought was it was a sovereign citizen reference.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:17 AM on September 15, 2016


    Owen Ellickson's fake Trump dialogues have been one of the few redeeming things about this election.
    posted by maxsparber at 10:18 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    In one of the election threads from about a month ago(!), someone made a long bulleted list of the things Trump, his surrogates, and his allies have said and done this election season that destroyed or would have destroyed the candidacies of various contenders through the years.

    I feel like that list has at least tripled in size since the poster made that comment.

    But, per most of the US media and a lot of "undecideds", Clinton sneezed yesterday or something, so I suppose we all have to agree that both candidates have their pluses and minuses. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    posted by lord_wolf at 10:19 AM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]




    I have college student Trump supporters. You know, I if was on heroin right now, I wouldn't be in a state of bowel loosening terror
    Because of that opiate constipation thing. High AF and normal poops.
    posted by angrycat at 10:20 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    This just in! ACLU Pocket Constitutions are back in stock!

    I wonder if the Khans' speech has completely destroyed the use of a pocket Constitution as a rhetorical device for Republicans.

    I'm thinking it has.
    posted by leotrotsky at 10:22 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    So, to quote Bender, are we boned?
    posted by Existential Dread at 10:22 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    We're boned. [/leela]
    posted by ZeusHumms at 10:23 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]




    Ask not for whom the bone bones; it bones for thee.
    posted by palindromic at 10:24 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    We're not boned. Things are serious but nothing has substantively changed in the last few days. Stop panicking.

    tivalasvegas annoyance level at chicken-littling: moderately elevated
    posted by tivalasvegas at 10:26 AM on September 15, 2016 [19 favorites]




    Bender quotes are always apropos, but I'm thinking on Election Night, it's Professor Farnsworth who will have the final say. Either:

    "Good news, everyone!"

    —or—

    "I don't want to live on this planet anymore."
    posted by Atom Eyes at 10:29 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Katy Tur on MSNBC confirming that Junior's response on the gas chamber joke is that he was referring to "corporal punishment". Also she amusingly almost accidentally said "right supremacist".
    posted by XMLicious at 10:31 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    In unrelated news, Clinton leads Trump by 42 points with Jewish voters, 61-19.

    You watch The Sorrow and the Pity enough times, stuff starts to sink in.
    posted by leotrotsky at 10:32 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    @DonaldJTrumpJr

    Liberals love the first amendment until you say something they don't agree with.

    posted by Sophie1 at 10:33 AM on September 15, 2016


    Corporal or Capital punishment? [Insert your own in-bad-taste joke here; I'm not going there.]
    posted by zachlipton at 10:33 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Also she amusingly almost accidentally said "right supremacist".

    Oh, that's a good malaprop.
    posted by leotrotsky at 10:34 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    We're not boned. Things are serious but nothing has substantively changed in the last few days. Stop panicking.

    But we're so good at it.
    posted by octothorpe at 10:34 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Alt-Right Leaders: We Aren’t Racist, We Just Hate Jews.

    "There’s some disagreement in the alt-right on what they refer to as “the Jewish question.”

    Oh, come on, there's no way that word choice is accidental.
    posted by leotrotsky at 10:35 AM on September 15, 2016 [16 favorites]


    [nothingIsFuckedLebowski.gif]
    posted by Fezboy! at 10:36 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    We're not boned. Things are serious but nothing has substantively changed in the last few days. Stop panicking.

    I used up all my Don't Panic in the climate change thread. My apologies
    posted by Existential Dread at 10:38 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    [nothingIsFuckedLebowski.gif]

    Is THIS what happens when you find a stranger in the alps?
    posted by Twain Device at 10:38 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    So, if either Trump or Clinton win this election, they'll be or become eligible to collect Social Security while in office?
    posted by ZeusHumms at 10:39 AM on September 15, 2016


    Katy Tur on MSNBC confirming that Junior's response on the gas chamber joke is that he was referring to "corporal punishment".

    Trump Jr. literally tweeted a Nazi meme 4 days ago and bragged about being included in it. He doesn't get the capital punishment benefit of the doubt.

    And there's been no one executed by the gas chamber in the US in 17 years. And between 1979-1999, only 11 people were because most states thought it was too barbaric. It has never been the predominant execution method in the US and is most clearly associated with Nazi Germany. Fuck him.
    posted by chris24 at 10:39 AM on September 15, 2016 [31 favorites]


    Liberals love the first amendment until you say something they don't agree with.

    And Mr. Trump Jr displays the usual utter lack of understanding of the First Amendment: You can say whatever you want, and the people who criticize and call you our for it are not suppressing your speech, you dumbass. They are exercising their First Amendment rights to make you wear the consequences of what you said. Free speech doesn't mean you get to go unchallenged, unquestioned and unaccountable.

    You want to make gas chamber jokes? Go right ahead. When people call you an asshole because of them, you either engage them with substance or GTFO.
    posted by nubs at 10:40 AM on September 15, 2016 [70 favorites]


    @DonaldJTrumpJr

    Liberals love the first amendment until you say something they don't agree with.


    I must have missed the part where some liberal claimed the government should prevent Jr. from saying/writing stupid shit.
    posted by zakur at 10:44 AM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    We're not boned. Things are serious but nothing has substantively changed in the last few days. Stop panicking.

    tivalasvegas annoyance level at chicken-littling: moderately elevated


    But it's boneless chicken-littling - completely different.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 10:44 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Trump went back to his own doctor and got a second opinion

    Rodney Dangerfield: "He said, okay, you're ugly too."
    posted by JackFlash at 10:46 AM on September 15, 2016 [28 favorites]


    I wouldn't say I love the first amendment. If me and the first amendment were dating on Facebook the status would read "It's Complicated."
    posted by maxsparber at 10:46 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]




    Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    I had been missing the flavors of arsenic, sawdust, rat tail, and human finger in my meats, so that's actually a point in his favor.
    posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on September 15, 2016 [34 favorites]


    Trump Steaks! We promise it's not horse!
    posted by dis_integration at 10:51 AM on September 15, 2016 [29 favorites]


    WTF, Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    "FDA Food Police"

    Damn, CBS is getting really desperate for new procedural ideas.
    posted by tonycpsu at 10:52 AM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]


    I'm not fat I'm bigly boned!
    posted by farlukar at 10:52 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    He has said, roughly "What have you got to lose from trying something new?" Well, with the FDA rules rollback: your lunch, your health and maybe your life...
    posted by puddledork at 10:53 AM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    Well now he's just trying to suck up to Paul Ryan.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 10:53 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    Does it generate the same kind of emotional response that his other statements eliminating regulations do?
    posted by ZeusHumms at 10:54 AM on September 15, 2016


    The food safety regulation bit is especially surprising from someone who only eats at fast food restaurants because he thinks they'll be cleaner and "at least you know what's in it." I guess if he's getting the White House chef to make all his meals mystery restaurant meat won't be at the top of his list of worries.
    posted by marshmallow peep at 10:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    WATCH: Trump Jr. abruptly ends interview after local TV reporter asks about shady family foundation

    So we can add Pittsburgh’s Action News 4 to Cosmo on the list of people doing better than the national media in this election cycle.

    Also, like with Cosmo and Ivanka, the Trumps just fold when they get a remotely tough question.
    posted by chris24 at 10:56 AM on September 15, 2016 [59 favorites]


    Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    Historical aside: The modern tradition of opposing food safety regulation dates back to 1906, when people were first able to not read The Jungle.
    posted by 0xFCAF at 10:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [16 favorites]


    hey don't turn your nose up at Lay's Fecal Coliform Bacteria Wavy Chips until you've tried them
    posted by prize bull octorok at 10:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    It seems like media outlet effectiveness in dealing with Trump is inversely proportional to their standing in the media ecosystem. Is there a college newspaper or church newsletter out there who can finally for once and for all rid us of this menace?
    posted by tonycpsu at 10:58 AM on September 15, 2016 [32 favorites]


    Stupid FDA regulates dog food like a dog.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 10:59 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    hey don't turn your nose up at Lay's Fecal Coliform Bacteria Wavy Chips until you've tried them

    Wrong thread.
    posted by maxsparber at 11:00 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    hey don't turn your nose up at Lay's Fecal Coliform Bacteria Wavy Chips until you've tried them

    The chip thread is over here; don't bring your derails about wacky chip flavours into this
    posted by nubs at 11:01 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Yesterday, I had to have my sweet, liberal 74 year-old mama hospitalized for suicidal ideation with a plan (she had taken her beloved cat to the shelter so that she wouldn't be left alone afterwards!). Mama has many issues at the moment, and lots of recent losses, but also, one of her stated reasons was Trump and fear of his possible presidency. She watches the mainstream news without fail, and I've tried to tell her points you guys have raised about the "news" and Trump's chances, but she has trouble believing how badly journalists are doing with this election. So add "frightening an old lady to the point of planning suicide" to the crimes of the media and Trump.

    I've rescued Lucy the cat, and Mom is getting treatment, but FUCK TRUMP. And mental illness.
    posted by thebrokedown at 11:02 AM on September 15, 2016 [127 favorites]


    hey don't turn your nose up at Lay's Fecal Coliform Bacteria Wavy Chips until you've tried them

    What Canadians Understand About Fecal Coliform Bacteria Wavy Chips that Americans Don't
    posted by Atom Eyes at 11:02 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    hey don't turn your nose up at Lay's Fecal Coliform Bacteria Wavy Chips until you've tried them

    I look forward to our schools featuring the Trump-branded Melania's Melamine Milk-style Beverage!
    posted by Existential Dread at 11:02 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    thebrokedown: Damn. I'm glad your mom is getting help and hope she's feeling better soon.
    posted by zachlipton at 11:05 AM on September 15, 2016 [27 favorites]


    add "frightening an old lady to the point of planning suicide" to the crimes of the media and Trump

    I'm worried about my dad. He doesn't struggle with mental illness, but he is the carer for my gravely ill mother and he's been really, really down for quite a while. (To the point where he said he thought it was very good that I wasn't having children because their future would be so terrible - and that's not a line he used to take, let me tell you.)

    I'm worried that the stress of the election on top of the family situation will be really bad for his health.
    posted by Frowner at 11:05 AM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Melania's Melamine Milk-style Beverage!

    please. branding is the one thing these people know. they'll just call it "Melk"
    posted by prize bull octorok at 11:05 AM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    Also, like with Cosmo and Ivanka, the Trumps just fold when they get a remotely tough question.

    Like many bullies, Trump punks out in a confrontation and talks tough about it later. President of Mexico, Reverend Timmons in Flint.
    posted by kirkaracha at 11:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]


    I've rescued Lucy the cat and mom is getting treatment, but FUCK TRUMP. And mental illness.

    God, Trump is garbage
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:06 AM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    It seems like media outlet effectiveness in dealing with Trump is inversely proportional to their standing in the media ecosystem.

    It's proportional to the amount of ad revenue coming from those with specific political interests.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 11:09 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    the thread has progressed but i can't resist...

    MetaFilter: High AF and normal poops
    posted by palomar at 11:10 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]



    We're boned.

    So we'll be that much more convenient to consume once the aliens get here.
     
    posted by Herodios at 11:11 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Junior's response on the gas chamber joke is that he was referring to 'corporal punishment'.

    Wow, Trump really is a shitty parent.
    posted by kirkaracha at 11:11 AM on September 15, 2016 [31 favorites]


    I am so sorry thebrokedown and frowner.
    posted by Sophie1 at 11:13 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    the thread has progressed but i can't resist

    Gotten longer, sure, but I wouldn't say "progressed". In fact, just the opposite.

    We're basically all Morlocks down here at this point.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 11:14 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Clinton Says She May Not Choose Garland for Supreme Court:
    Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton said she wouldn’t be bound by President Barack Obama’s nomination of Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court, hinting that she would consider a bolder choice if she takes office in January with the seat still unfilled.
    posted by kirkaracha at 11:16 AM on September 15, 2016 [63 favorites]


    thebrokedown, I'm really sorry to hear about your mom. I am glad she's getting the help she needs now.

    Way to go Channel 4 Action News, I guess? I write my department's newsletter... do you think Hope Hicks would hook me up for an interview?

    In other news, Hillary yard signs and bumper stickers are beginning to sprout up with more regularity here. Between when I went to work yesterday and when I returned home, several houses on one block on my route got signs put up. I know that yard signs don't win elections but it's nice to just see signifiers of "Maybe I at least try not to be a horrifying racist."

    If I can find the time on Saturday, I might go canvas again. I actually hated it when I did it previously but it is apparently super effective, so I'll take one for the team again.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 11:16 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Just using "progressed" shows a little optimism, no?
    posted by kingless at 11:16 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    IT DID NOT DO SO!!! There were a bunch of such groups that sprung up, so of course more got audited

    Liberal and conservative groups, I might add. The IRS was doing its job in seeing that so-called "social welfare groups" were non-political, as they are required to be in order to be nonprofit. The extent to which the so-called "liberal media" has swallowed this phony Republican narrative is saddening but now, I fear, shocking.
    posted by Gelatin at 11:16 AM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    I volunteered at a suicide hotline and many people who called in were triggered by news events (often the same people by different events). We would write notes to the next shift about it. Michael Jackson's death was a big trigger. I can only imagine how hard that hotline must be to work right now.
    posted by zutalors! at 11:17 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Clinton Says She May Not Choose Garland for Supreme Court:


    Shhhhhh don't tell people that!
    posted by soren_lorensen at 11:17 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Liberals love the first amendment until you say something they don't agree with.

    Obligatory xkcd
    posted by Gelatin at 11:18 AM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    We're basically all Morlocks down here at this point.

    Murlocs tbh, at least speaking for myself and kythuen.
    posted by stolyarova at 11:21 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    dis_integration: "Trump Steaks! We promise it's not horse!"

    <ASIDE>Like we would waste good horse meat on the proletariat</ASIDE>
    posted by Mitheral at 11:21 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Subtext: "You wanna play, Republicans? Let's play. No one said I have to be nice after I beat your garbagemonster of a candidate. Confirm Garland or gtfo."
    posted by yasaman at 11:22 AM on September 15, 2016 [44 favorites]


    Murlocs tbh, at least speaking for myself and kythuen.

    Ggggagarrgaggggglluarrrgh!
    posted by winna at 11:22 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Ggggagarrgaggggglluarrrgh!

    My constant internal monologue until after the election.
    posted by stolyarova at 11:24 AM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    I will not get sucked into a derail where I just make murlock noises no matter how much I want to.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 11:25 AM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    MetaFilter: We're basically all Morlocks down here at this point.
    posted by Gelatin at 11:26 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Hillary’s Risky ‘Deplorables’ Strategy: Behind her comments: a sea change in how Democrats really think they can win.

    "By squarely siding with civil rights activists who demand that racism be forcefully confronted, she’s making clear that she views her path to victory doesn’t run through the white working-class vote. Rather, she’s making a bet that the makeup of 21st century America allows her to do something no Democratic nominee, not even Barack Obama, has done before: win the White House without winking at white grievance.

    This marks a big shift for the Democrats. You can see how big by traveling back to 1992, contrasting Hillary Clinton’s “Basket of Deplorables” moment with Bill Clinton’s famous “Sister Souljah” moment. With race relations in America a tinderbox, Bill Clinton stood up at Rev. Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow Coalition conference and tackled the issue of race relations. And what he delivered — in front of a crowd of America’s most influential black leaders — was a blunt appeal to white people."
    posted by chris24 at 11:27 AM on September 15, 2016 [46 favorites]


    Today's Democracy Now! broadcast (at around 45:50, alt link, .torrent, transcript) interviewed Kurt Eichenwald at Newsweek.
    posted by XMLicious at 11:35 AM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    thebrokedown: I've rescued Lucy the cat, and Mom is getting treatment

    {{{{{HUGS}}}}} for you, your family, and your family's cats

    {{{{{HUGS}}}}} for everyone

    {{{{{HUGS}}}}} trump hate
    posted by filthy light thief at 11:37 AM on September 15, 2016 [28 favorites]


    On Fox & Friends, Trump attacks the black woman pastor who asked him to stop politicking in her church. Calls her a nervous mess.

    Electioneering at a 501(c)(3) church or charity is illegal. Trump has already demonstrated that he has no regard for the law in his own charity.

    Politicians often speak at churches but they tend to talk in generalities about social issues and avoid outright advocating "vote for me because my opponent is crooked" as Trump tried to do.

    The pastor had good reason to shut him down to prevent illegal electioneering. And of course complying with the law is an outrage for Trump.
    posted by JackFlash at 11:40 AM on September 15, 2016 [57 favorites]


    Liberals love the first amendment until you say something they don't agree with.

    Obligatory xkcd


    Alt. text: "I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express."

    QFT
    posted by filthy light thief at 11:40 AM on September 15, 2016 [48 favorites]


    The "deplorables" comment seems very similar to when Biden had that "gaff" where he voiced his support for SSM.

    Depending on the reaction, she could have walked her comments back more so I think she was dipping a toe in the water with the comment to gauge the public and press reaction to the comment.

    I think the whole thing was planned.
    posted by VTX at 11:44 AM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    WTF, Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    I'm trying to wrap my head around how this could possibly be considered to have good or even workable "optics." (I mean, except for the valuable Unrepentantly Evil Plutocrat voting bloc, obviously, but is he worried they haven't all decided to vote for him already?)

    Next policy position: Down with plumbing! The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT's tyrannical plumbing mandate is an unfair burden on small business owners!
    posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 11:44 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Electioneering at a 501(c)(3) church or charity is illegal. Trump has already demonstrated that he has no regard for the law in his own charity.

    But by electioneering at a church, he's tossing his hat in with "zealots" who think that law is itself illegal:
    Some pastors tread nervously onto this forbidden ground, because they don’t want to lose their churches’ tax exemptions. But others zealously hope for just that. They are trying to provoke the Internal Revenue Service into an adverse ruling so they can challenge the constitutionality of the law, which they believe violates the First Amendment. For many years, the IRS has refrained from taking the bait, and citizen complaints against churches’s electioneering have disappeared into the agency’s bureaucratic abyss.
    The Faustian Bargain Between Church and State (The Atlantic, May 7, 2015; "To receive tax-exempt status from the IRS, religious organizations must abstain from electioneering. Is that constitutional?")
    The ban on electioneering by tax-exempt charities may seem high-minded, but it was enacted for crass political reasons. It may be a principle of good government to protect taxpayers from subsidizing candidates’ supporters, but the prohibition was added to the law to protect one candidate, Lyndon B. Johnson, who faced extreme right-wing opposition in his reelection bid for the Senate. On July 2, 1954, he rose on the Senate floor to propose amending section 501(c)(3), which already restricted lobbying. Now he asked that the ban be extended to political campaigning. “The whole thing was over in a matter of minutes,” writes the sociologist James D. Davidson. “There was no discussion, and the amendment was passed on voice vote.”
    Interesting, long article.
    posted by filthy light thief at 11:46 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    HOW I ASSESS WHETHER OR NOT I SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO US POLITICS:
    1. I watch this clip from Rick and Morty
    2. If it cheers me up instead of gets me down, I know I should not be paying attention to US politics.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:46 AM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    CheesesOfBrazil: "I'm trying to wrap my head around how this could possibly be considered to have good or even workable "optics." "

    Food safety has been a thing long enough (like vaccinations) that people don't have any real feel for how bad an unregulated market would be.
    posted by Mitheral at 11:50 AM on September 15, 2016 [40 favorites]


    WTF, Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    I'm trying to wrap my head around how this could possibly be considered to have good or even workable "optics." (I mean, except for the valuable Unrepentantly Evil Plutocrat voting bloc, obviously, but is he worried they haven't all decided to vote for him already?)

    Next policy position: Down with plumbing! The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT's tyrannical plumbing mandate is an unfair burden on small business owners!


    Nope. Next position: end Americans with Disability Act requirements, because they cost a lot and harm its intended beneficiaries [PDF from CATO; NOT a Trump proposal, for now]
    posted by filthy light thief at 11:51 AM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    As calculated as the BoD (basket of deplorables) speech was, one has to think that bringing SCOTUS into play is a very purposeful move on the part of her campaign. Makes me wonder what trap she is setting for Trump.
    posted by OHenryPacey at 11:52 AM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Food safety has been a thing long enough (like vaccinations) that people don't have any real feel for how bad an unregulated market would be.

    Except I've had …digestive repercussions from food poisoning often enough to have a "real feel." Am I just unlucky?
    posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 11:52 AM on September 15, 2016


    OF COURSE, there's Voter Fraud, and the Republicans do most of it! I've repeatedly told the story of how IN 1972, when my Republican Activist mother pushed me into 'volunteering', the GOP office guy asked me to 'help' some nursing home people fill out their ballots (the right way). I didn't do it, but I didn't report it - didn't want to implicate my mother. But accusing Democrats of something they routinely do has been Republican practice for DECADES, even longer than the Southern Strategy. It's just more obvious when Trump does it because he does it ALL THE TIME and is less competent than the average criminal Republican, and that is a big part of why well-established Republicans don't like him (also, he's like a rival crime boss taking over "our territory"). But they saw Vote Fraud in Chicago help Kennedy beat Nixon in 1960 and decided they would NEVER be out-frauded again. I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is plenty of corruption in the Democratic Party, but the Republican Party is a totally Criminal Enterprise. I'd be surprised if there are more than a handful of elected Republicans in D.C. who DON'T get two Absentee Ballots for their home state. And the way Bill Clinton won in 1992 was by being very Republican for a Democrat, including much of the dishonesty, and that's the biggest reason the Republicans hate him - and his wife - so much. (I think it's also the main reason Al Gore distanced himself from Clinton... and why he lost... he wasn't totally honest, just TOO honest.) And I have a sneaking feeling Bill is worried about Hillary's campaign because she's being too honest. "Come on honey, it's not too late to start doing it MY way".
    posted by oneswellfoop at 11:53 AM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    I am willing to attribute a nearly bottomless well of stupidity to Trump supporters. But it boggles even my uncharitable mind that they don't seem to care about their own lives or their children's lives.

    He's basically saying he doesn't care what crap is in the water they drink, the air they breathe, the food they eat -- as long as money continues to flow into his pockets.

    And why should he? He'll be able to afford all the BEST food, the very GREATEST food, from some great farmers he knows!

    How do people hear these positions he's taking and not wonder, "Huh, what might that mean for me and mine, down the road?"

    I guess as long as all the people they hate are also dying of food poisoning, it's all good.
    posted by kythuen at 11:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    It's Never Been a Better Time to Abandon Trump:
    When Republicans step into the voting booth, they will have to decide once and for all whether they want their president to be a secretive neoliberal hawk or a race-baiting, belligerent, ideologically flexible serial liar with no record of public service to speak of. Some of them will vote for Libertarian Gary Johnson, the former governor of New Mexico; others say they will write someone in or not vote at all. But the choice puts conservatives who have devoted their lives to defending the ideals espoused by the Republican party in a very uncomfortable position.
    posted by kirkaracha at 11:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I think the whole thing was planned.

    The more I learn about Hillary, the shrewder I think she is.

    It wouldn't surprise me one tiny bit if someone uncovered her childhood diary (covered in hearts that say Rodham 4 Prez! and a two page spread on converting the White House lawn into a working pony farm) and found something like this scrawled in the margins:
    bucket of bad guys
    hamper of hatefuls
    crate
    of deplorables
    bin of deplorables
    basket of deplorables ✴✴✴
    I can't wait to vote for her.
    posted by phunniemee at 11:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [54 favorites]


    Some pastors tread nervously onto this forbidden ground, because they don’t want to lose their churches’ tax exemptions. But others zealously hope for just that. They are trying to provoke the Internal Revenue Service into an adverse ruling so they can challenge the constitutionality of the law, which they believe violates the First Amendment.

    Churches don't have a First Amendment right not to be taxed. Taxing a church neither establishes religion, prohibits the free exercise thereof, or abridges the freedom of speech

    The good thing that if Clinton wins, I'd imagine this codswallop might get dialed back a bit, because the SCOTUS as it's presently composed is unlikely to affirm their desired position.
    posted by Gelatin at 11:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    "E. coli Conservatism" has been a thing for a long time. Trump's just letting the rest of the GOP know (or at least think) he's going to be a team player. Whether they're dumb enough to believe anything he says is probably adequately answered by the fact that they believe businesses can regulate themselves with regard to food safety.
    posted by tonycpsu at 11:54 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    WTF, Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    Literal shit-sandwiches for everyone!
    posted by T.D. Strange at 11:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    WTF, Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    Don't worry Flint, we'll put lead in the bottled water too!
    posted by peeedro at 11:55 AM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Keeping it 1600 is up, for anyone who needs some (hopefully) talking down from buying a truck load of Depends.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 11:56 AM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Food safety has been a thing long enough (like vaccinations) that people don't have any real feel for how bad an unregulated market would be.

    Also, like vaccinations, the woo-woo anti-science crowd (of whom there are just as many on the right as on the left) has a hate-on for the FDA because of the already very very very (way too) meager regulation of the supplements industry that it does. Right now supplement makers can do nearly anything they like, but every now and then one crosses the line into actually making medical claims (the one thing that's illegal because you can't claim shit that can only be known via drug trials if you don't actually do a drug trial) and the FDA slaps them down and this is the BIGGEST INJUSTICE EVAR. The biggest friend the supplements industry has in Congress right now is Orrin Hatch (R) because he's from Utah and Mormons luuuuuurve supplements.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 11:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [26 favorites]


    Food safety has been a thing long enough (like vaccinations) that people don't have any real feel for how bad an unregulated market would be.

    Which is too bad, because it's one of the things that reveals that modern movement conservatism's free-market fetish is a load of dingo's kidneys.

    We already had an unregulated free market in food and drugs, and the result was snake oil and filth. We enacted these regulations because the Gilded Age alternative was too destructive to tolerate.
    posted by Gelatin at 11:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Food safety has been a thing long enough (like vaccinations) that people don't have any real feel for how bad an unregulated market would be.

    Except I've had …digestive repercussions from food poisoning often enough to have a "real feel." Am I just unlucky?


    Well, clearly the system is broken if you've gotten food poisoning that often. Why prop up this broken system, when the free market can handle itself just as well. Let Twitterverse outrage regulate food quality! Realtime regulation! People immediately respond when Donald tweets, so that's gotta work for food safety!


    As calculated as the BoD (basket of deplorables) speech was, one has to think that bringing SCOTUS into play is a very purposeful move on the part of her campaign. Makes me wonder what trap she is setting for Trump.

    Or maybe this is something for the Busters, another olive branch to folks who want her to shift (farther) away from center. Either way, this has been speculated for as long as the Merrick proposal was announced, back in the primaries. GOP stalls, and if a Democrat wins, they lose their relatively centrist judge. Do they really want to bank on Trump winning?
    posted by filthy light thief at 11:57 AM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    one has to think that bringing SCOTUS into play is a very purposeful move on the part of her campaign. Makes me wonder what trap she is setting for Trump.

    It looks like she's trying to nudge the Senate Republicans into confirming Garland. She's probably decided that (a) she's fine with Garland on the Court and (b) better a sure thing now than letting it hinge on an uncertain outcome like the presidential election.
    posted by indubitable at 11:58 AM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Keeping it 1600 is up, for anyone who needs some (hopefully) talking down from buying a truck load of Depends.


    I run every MWF and I always tell myself I'll save Thursday's episode to listen to on Friday while I run and I never do.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 11:59 AM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Taking Garland out of the discussion also removes him as a reason for wavering republicans to stick with Trump. They can't be worried about a more liberal judge if he's already on the court.
    posted by neonrev at 12:00 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    It looks like she's trying to nudge the Senate Republicans into confirming Garland. She's probably decided that (a) she's fine with Garland on the Court and (b) better a sure thing now than letting it hinge on an uncertain outcome like the presidential election.

    Also, if, perish forbid, an election challenge goes to the Supreme Court again, a tie (which would toss the election to the Republican House) would be unlikely.
    posted by Gelatin at 12:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    It looks like she's trying to nudge the Senate Republicans into confirming Garland. She's probably decided that (a) she's fine with Garland on the Court and (b) better a sure thing now than letting it hinge on an uncertain outcome like the presidential election.
    posted by indubitable at 11:58 AM on September 15 [+] [!]




    But why now? those things have seemed like a given, and that could have been left to senate dems to say. Why is she bringing it into the campaign today?
    posted by OHenryPacey at 12:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Dan Webb, former federal prosecutor and Republican powerhouse in Chicago is throwing a fundraiser for Hillary.
    A die-hard Republican who went public urging his party to vote for Clinton the day before Donald Trump’s Chicago fundraiser in July, Webb is now part of an aerie of legal eagles raising Clinton cash.
    “Look. We can do this,” Webb said.
    “We Republicans who voted for Mitt Romney in the last election — we could bring her over the line.”
    “It would just take 2 to 3 percent of those Romney voters. It wouldn’t take that many of us.
    “I’m not abandoning the Republican Party. I want to help America. But Trump will destroy America as we know it.”
    posted by readery at 12:03 PM on September 15, 2016 [50 favorites]


    Has she not been voicing support for Garland until now? I would be surprised if that were the case.
    posted by indubitable at 12:04 PM on September 15, 2016


    A lot of what Clinton has done this campaign makes me think she's been setting up some pretty big traps for both Trump and the broader GOP. I really want her to start springing them so I can be right about thinking she's a tactical genius and not worrying I'm just imagining things.
    posted by neonrev at 12:04 PM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]


    Is somebody getting the message out that Republicans can vote for Hillary and lie afterwards, claiming they voted for Trump? It's even okay if they continue to complain about Hillary afterwards.
    posted by papercake at 12:05 PM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Hillary Clinton is back on the campaign trail; says she likes the show Madam Secretary and is excited for it to be back on the air. =)
    posted by melissasaurus at 12:06 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    I've missed her!
    posted by zutalors! at 12:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    > the GOP office guy asked me to 'help' some nursing home people fill out their ballots (the right way). I didn't do it, but I didn't report it - didn't want to implicate my mother.

    Democrats also do this. Any competent political party does this. I would honestly be skeptical of supporting any political party that wasn't willing to work angles like this, because it would indicate a failure among the party leadership to understand what sorts of animal political campaigns are. Political campaigns aren't about assessing the will of the people. They are campaigns, in the military sense. They're proxies for war, designed to allow for transition between governments without the mass bloodshed that would be produced by open violent struggle.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Behind her comments: a sea change in how Democrats really think they can win.

    Like I said:
    Gloves off.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 1:32 PM on September 14
    Remember how Trump spent all of August running around doing his stupid rallies and complaining that Clinton wasn't doing press conferences and low-energy and sad and sick, probably dying?

    She was preparing. She was figuring out what works and what doesn't. She was calculating risks.
    Clinton is making a highly risky choice in refusing to extend that hand—if you assume that the white working-class is monolithic on racial issues. But we need not be “grossly generalistic.” It’s true that college-educated whites are more likely than other whites to believe, as the recent ABC/Washington Post poll showed, that Trump is “biased against women and minorities.”. But only within the cohort of noncollege white men is there a majority who believe Trump is not biased, and even with that group, a not insignificant 38 percent say he is.
    We know the BoD wasn't a gaffe; she'd said it before. I suspect the campaign had a pretty good idea of what the Newsweek article was going to be about before it was published, firstly because it got weird buzz the night before and secondly because they were Ready with a capital R to push out more details, amplify the story and taunt Trump. She wouldn't be saying the Garland thing off the cuff, either.

    Welcome to the majors, Donald. You're playing with the big boys girls now.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 12:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [31 favorites]


    Why is she bringing it into the campaign today?

    She didn't bring it up out of the blue, she was specifically asked about it.
    Roland Martin: If you become President, will you ask the President to pull Merrick Garland’s nomination to allow someone younger to be in his place and if you do, will the appointment be the first African-American woman nominee in history?

    I think we should stick with one President at a time. We happen to have a very good one, in my opinion and he has nominated someone. It’s a disgrace that the Senate, under Republican leadership, has failed to act on his nominee which is why we need to elect Democrats to the Senate. I’m going to let this president serve out his term with distinction and make the decisions that he thinks are right for the country.I think he’s got a pretty good track record and he’s earned that right.
    posted by Roommate at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2016 [25 favorites]


    Why is she bringing it into the campaign today?

    Because it would be her decision, because she's pushing Rs to confirm, because she's trying to force Trump into an unforced error, because she's going to get some press that isn't about health and email.
    posted by chris24 at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    YOU GUYS! Think of all the great new AskMe questions we'll get!
    posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:08 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    TPM: One of the woman the Donald Trump campaign announced last month would be serving on its economic advisory council did not in fact accept the job. Betsy McCaughey, a columnist and notorious Obamacare critic, told TPM in an email Wednesday that she had turned down the invitation.
    posted by PenDevil at 12:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    what show is she saying it's sad it's over?
    posted by zutalors! at 12:09 PM on September 15, 2016


    what show is she saying it's sad it's over?

    Farscape
    posted by dis_integration at 12:11 PM on September 15, 2016 [16 favorites]




    Is somebody getting the message out that Republicans can vote for Hillary and lie afterwards, claiming they voted for Trump?

    I like it! The cool pope could even issue a blanket dispensation making it OK for Catholics to fudge the truth, juuust this once.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 12:13 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Looking at polls and listening to the news the last few days has been somewhat terrifying, but it's honestly very heartening to see that video of her back on the campaign trail.
    posted by TwoWordReview at 12:13 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Trump just said he would eliminate food safety regulation.

    I've worked in food safety. Regulations can be cumbersome and at times really annoying to work with but holy heck we need them, and need them to be strong. I KNOW what can happen if things aren't followed properly and even with what could be considered a minor instance the results can be nasty. I also know what it's like to work with people who are shall we say lax in making sure they're followed. Or you know maybe we could just cut some corners here and there to save money and time. Regulations have to be strong to combat the tendancy of certain types of business people to value $ over safety.

    One of the only times I've ever yelled and threatened a boss, even though I knew I could lose my job was over following regulations around allergens. I could do it because I knew damn well the law was on my side.
    posted by Jalliah at 12:14 PM on September 15, 2016 [32 favorites]


    > Keeping it 1600 is up, for anyone who needs some (hopefully) talking down from buying a truck load of Depends.

    soothe me plouffe, sooth me like one of your past elections
    posted by Tevin at 12:14 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    perfect clip pbo, because after she wins, the GOP stormtroopers will still be shooting at her...
    posted by oneswellfoop at 12:14 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Err I got excited and forgot to say why I blockquoted that snippet in the first place. It's because all the complaining about how Dems are mean to the white working class, don't get their culture, call them yokels, etc. is really a slap in the face to the many, many people who are white and working class and are horrified by Trumpism.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 12:15 PM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


    conservatives who have devoted their lives to defending the ideals espoused by the Republican party

    I'm sure this situation is tough for all 23 of them, but come on with this stuff, pundits. Most people have a tribal identity and identify with some top-billing items. They're not stalwart believers who have always marched together towards their lofty ideals, damn the cost, never mind the fact that even the Republican coalition has a multitude of different folks with different priorities in it - as is inevitable in a system effectively limited to two parties.

    In my 46 years of life I have seen elected republicans consistently ignore these supposed conservative ideals the second they're in power... and get reelected over and over. You can find your proof right at the difference between St Ronnie the ideal and the actual signer of laws and increaser of deficits. The gulf between the Tea Party nutters and the 'mainstream' party demonstrates the divide as well.

    Trump's a loose cannon for sure, but this idea that he's so far out of step compared ideologically compared to those Rs before them that most of the party can't hold its nose and find something in there that speaks to them is just wishful thinking. He's their product, grown on their soil. For most of them his biggest offense is not being better at it.
    posted by phearlez at 12:17 PM on September 15, 2016 [19 favorites]


    While 2% LV is too close for comfort, the fact that she maintained a lead through the worst week of her campaign (according to the worthless press) and Trump still can't get above 44% hopefully keeps the JCPL from spiking.

    It's tied at 42-42 with third parties included. As I said in previous threads Clinton's ceiling is obviously higher than Trump's ceiling. But 44% might be a winning number this cycle and Trump can get 44%. All of those people tossing "protest votes" at Johnson and Stein because, hey, Clinton is going to win anyway better reconsider their cunning plan post-haste.

    The polling aggregate of the 4 way race will be pretty much tied a week from now IMO.
    posted by Justinian at 12:24 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    And I'm pretty sure the Republican Leadership can keep Trump rubberstamping their priority items as long as they also approve anything that'll benefit him personally. It really would be The Worst Universe.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 12:25 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    We can hope that Clinton's numbers bounce back up 1-2% in the coming days as she returns to the campaign trail and the media CLINTON DEATHWATCH fades away. She better make sure she's ready for the trail, though, because another issue would be a very non-optimal event.

    The first debate can't come soon enough for me (or at least can't come soon enough as soon as Clinton's energy levels are near 100%.)
    posted by Justinian at 12:27 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    The first debate can't come soon enough for me

    Can we get her an "I'm NOT with stupid →" shirt for the debates please?
    posted by phunniemee at 12:30 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Trump is a volatile stooge. Anyone who wants to manipulate him just needs to know what the Big Baby wants, play to that in return for favors, and accept that every once in a while Big Baby will have a temper tantrum and destroy things.

    The problem is that the things he'll destroy will occasionally be things like the world's financial system, democratic government, or perhaps earth itself. But, you know, omelette, eggs.
    posted by argybarg at 12:30 PM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    All of those people tossing "protest votes" at Johnson and Stein because, hey, Clinton is going to win anyway better reconsider their cunning plan post-haste.

    Johnson is on the ballot in all 50 states, Stein is not on the ballot in Nevada or North Carolina. That could matter.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 12:30 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    CheesesOfBrazil: "Except I've had …digestive repercussions from food poisoning often enough to have a "real feel." Am I just unlucky?"

    Melamine and Urea aren't a regular constituent of your milk, coloured sawdust doesn't feature as the main ingredient of the tea you pour the milk into. Methanol isn't added to your beer to give it some kick. Sand isn't bulking out your flour. Your olive oil isn't cut with mineral oil. Random heavy metal salts or coal tar dyes aren't giving colour to meat and produce. Ergot contaminated grains aren't used to make bread. Castor oil isn't diluting your Canola oil. Sugar doesn't contain chalk.

    These are the sort of issues that plague countries without good food safety regulation and/or enforcement. For cripes sake the Indian Government publishes a guide listing quick tests for common food adulterants.

    The regulations aren't perfect or always followed. And especially for bacteria contamination probably can't completely eliminate risk even if everyone follows the law/regulation/recommendations 100% but things can be and were much worse than anything seen in the states for decades.
    posted by Mitheral at 12:30 PM on September 15, 2016 [54 favorites]


    Ecch! Why do these Corn Flakes suddenly taste like urine??

    Oh, hey Justinian.

    posted by Atom Eyes at 12:32 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    So last night my car, a 1976 Triumph TR6 that I've spent a gazillion hours restoring over the last year, was stolen.

    The main thing bothering me today? The possibility of Trump as POTUS for life.
    posted by localhuman at 12:33 PM on September 15, 2016 [34 favorites]


    Yeah this Keepin it 1600 episode is good. Calming my shakes right down, hitting me like 538 circa November 2008.

    mmmmm
    posted by Tevin at 12:34 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    My dad always tried to claim that the market would just naturally sort out food producers who don't ensure food safety because consumers would vote with their wallets. Which kind of ignores the fact that some people have to first drop dead in order to identify which companies are not quite up to snuff so that the rest of us can then use our purchasing power to AVOID DEATH.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 12:35 PM on September 15, 2016 [38 favorites]


    YOU GUYS! Think of all the great new AskMe questions we'll get!

    "Hey, guys, can I eat--"
    "NO!"*

    * Followed by 97 screens of "God, no" "I wouldn't on a bet" and "Personally, I haven't eaten since early '17..."
    posted by kythuen at 12:35 PM on September 15, 2016 [29 favorites]


    I've been investigating this MA charter school ballot issue recently and its very interesting. Lots of dark money flowing in in favor of charters but also lots of data to support charters being a net good for the urban students that attend. I wish this election was about stuff like that, GMOs, US drone policy, the NSA, legalizing marijuana, the Dream Act, how much to tax the 1%, whether or not to break up banks, body cameras for police, and so on and on but instead its fucking "DEPORT ALL MEXICANS AND ABOLISH THE FDA SO I CAN SELL TRUMP TAP WATER FOR PUTIN". Thanks for the awesome discourse republicans you freaking dicks, its not even an overton window its like a totally different landscape.
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:37 PM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Oh! One caveat on the polls... they are pretty much all switching to their Likely Vote models, and it looks like the likely voter models pollsters are using this cycle tend to swing towards Trump by 3-5 points depending on the pollster. So for example this 0-2 point race in the CBS/NYT poll? If it was still reporting registered voters like in previous polls it would be showing a 4-5 point race instead of a 0-2 point race and we'd be saying it's pretty decent under the circumstances. So it's not clear whether this poll represents a significant shift towards Trump or if using a likely voter model all along would have consistently portrayed a much closer race.
    posted by Justinian at 12:38 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Ergot contaminated grains aren't used to make bread.

    PRES. TRUMP: Look, nobody has an explanation for all the convulsions and mania spreading across the country. Nobody! But let me tell you, a lot of smart people, a lot of very smart people who have studied these things, are saying it's witchcraft. So we're gonna have some trials, and we'll get to the bottom of this.
    posted by prize bull octorok at 12:39 PM on September 15, 2016 [50 favorites]


    A whole new class of survivalist/hoarder: one who acquires eight years worth of canned food before Trump can eliminate food safety rules...
    posted by oneswellfoop at 12:40 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    I probably wouldn't even panic until after the second debate. It took that long for Obama to really hit his stride.

    If it's still a dead heat after that, then I might start panicking.

    Either way, I've reached out to Hillary for MN (actually, they reached out to me after I replied to a FB comment*). Whether I volunteer my time because I'm panicking over Clinton's chances or because I want to help run up the score, I'll be volunteering.

    *I asked if there were things for us introverts to do that didn't involve talking to strangers too much, mostly because I was pretty sure they'd say that they do and I wanted other potential volunteers to see that.
    posted by VTX at 12:40 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    One caveat on the polls... they are pretty much all switching to their Likely Vote models
    ...which is why the Dems' GOTV efforts are SO IMPORTANT. To MAKE the polls inaccurate by bringing "unlikely voters" to the polls (and putting a Poll Watcher Watcher right next to every Trumpist Poll Watcher). Volunteers are really more important than contributions.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 12:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Survivalists (and raw milk/cheese people) are exactly who Trump is appealing to with the FDA stuff, for what it's worth.
    posted by stolyarova at 12:45 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    A whole new class of survivalist/hoarder: one who acquires eight years worth of canned food before Trump can eliminate food safety rules...

    Ted Cruz's 100 cans of soup will come in handy.
    posted by peeedro at 12:46 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    > ...which is why the Dems' GOTV efforts are SO IMPORTANT.

    I was talking to my local organizer last night about GOTV; she (and presumably our whole region) are having training next week and roll out will be the week after that. And more to the point all our conversations have pretty much revolved around building a large enough volunteer base to really make GOTV a Major Event.

    So the campaign is definitely taking it seriously and not just depending on Americans having the good sense to make the right choice.
    posted by Tevin at 12:47 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Also, she's back!
    posted by Tevin at 12:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Thanks for the awesome discourse republicans you freaking dicks, its not even an overton window its like a totally different landscape.

    They got hold of Rick's portal gun and we're looking at the planet of butts.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    "I Feel Good" is the theme to Clinton's entrance in Greensboro, NC.
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]


    My dad always tried to claim that the market would just naturally sort out food producers who don't ensure food safety because consumers would vote with their wallets. Which kind of ignores the fact that some people have to first drop dead in order to identify which companies are not quite up to snuff so that the rest of us can then use our purchasing power to AVOID DEATH.

    I've heard the same argument used for abolishing the EPA-- that the market would regulate itself. What a crock of shit. Sure people might not buy Chem Co products in the days following that massive toxic runoff that killed everything living within a 30 mile radius, but if they lower their prices...who can resist a bargain?
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    And who are you going to turn to once you are boycotting Tyson Foods, Nestle, JBS USA, ConAgra Foods, Kraft Foods, Smithfield Foods, and General Mills?
    posted by Mitheral at 12:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Walking by the droning TV in the break room on my way from a meeting and HRC is giving a speech. And I catch her saying just how lucky she is that she can take a day or two from work when she gets ill. Many Americans cannot.

    And I continued back to my cube, happy to know that this whole ordeal is being used as a teaching moment.
    posted by Fezboy! at 12:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [38 favorites]


    Regarding food safety: was the Blue Bell listeria ice cream thing too regional to have a national profile? From what I gathered on social media, it seemed like half of Texas and its neighboring states spent a big chunk of last year flipping out over the unavailability of Blue Bell.
    posted by mhum at 12:57 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Back to the OZ show...

    Trump to Oz on whether an undocumented immigrant is entitled to life saving care:
    Well under my plan the undocumented or as you say the illegal immigrant wouldn't be in the country. They only come in the country legally.
    And...Poof! we are back to the magic disappearance of all undocumented immigrants starting Day One of Donald Trump's presidency.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:57 PM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


    My dad always tried to claim that the market would just naturally sort out food producers who don't ensure food safety because consumers would vote with their wallets.

    That's especially funny given how many self-proclaimed capitalists respond to boycotts by screaming their heads off about the rights of the boycotted being violated.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 12:58 PM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    @IvankaTrump: Politics aside, I'm working to raise awareness on issues that are of critical importance to American women and families. Regardless of who you support, policies benefiting women+families are becoming topics of mainstream conversation & that's a good thing. @Cosmopolitan, your readers do & should care about issues impacting women & children. Keep the focus where it belongs—advocating change.
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:58 PM on September 15, 2016


    Watching the ABC stream. She looks good. She's bringing up a lot of people with health challenges. Hopefully appealing to folks who've had issues of their own who find common cause with her over being sick on the job.
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:59 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    And who are you going to turn to once you are boycotting Tyson Foods, Nestle, JBS USA, ConAgra Foods, Kraft Foods, Smithfield Foods, and General Mills?

    I'd suggest planting a neighborhood war garden, but you'd have to get your seeds and pesticides from Bayer-Monsanto, so back to square one then.
    posted by Strange Interlude at 12:59 PM on September 15, 2016


    She's still kinda hoarse 😥
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:00 PM on September 15, 2016


    Forgot say that as soon as I committed to volunteering (even if it's still only mentally) I started feeling much better about the election.

    The most important thing you can do is vote. If that isn't enough for you, volunteer.

    I have no idea what I'll be doing (it'll be at least a week until I can) but I feel better for having committed to taking action, I'll bet a feel even better once I've done it.

    Also, I'm a home based employee so if anyone ends up door-knocking in Bloomington, MN, I hope I get to meet you!
    posted by VTX at 1:00 PM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Playing I feel good as she walks off...is that the stream or live? Either way, 😥
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:01 PM on September 15, 2016


    @IvankaTrump: Politics aside, I'm working to raise awareness on issues that are of critical importance to American women and families. Regardless of who you support, policies benefiting women+families are becoming topics of mainstream conversation & that's a good thing. @Cosmopolitan, your readers do & should care about issues impacting women & children. Keep the focus where it belongs—advocating change.

    Issues impacting women and children...as long as the women have "legal married status." And since Trump is not a fan of gay marriage, that apparently means advocating change only for women who are married to men. That's some strange brand of feminism she's got there.
    posted by zachlipton at 1:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [24 favorites]


    (Ivanka does claim the plan would cover female same-sex marriages, though she doesn't promise those would, you know, actually still be legal nationwide.)
    posted by zachlipton at 1:06 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    is that the stream or live?

    Live. They played her on with it too.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    The most important thing you can do is vote. If that isn't enough for you, volunteer.

    And if we're not Americans? :'(
    posted by Francis at 1:08 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    My dad always tried to claim that the market would just naturally sort out food producers who don't ensure food safety because consumers would vote with their wallets.

    Rand-worshipping TV "journalist" John Stossel used to say the same thing about government-mandated elevator inspection, that if enough people were killed riding in Conglomo-MegaCorp elevators, then consumers would simply, I guess, avoid doing business or living in buildings with elevators built by that company? I don't know. It doesn't seem to make much sense, does it?
    posted by Atom Eyes at 1:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Glen Thrush has some soothing words for the nervous: 5 reasons Trump might fall in autumn

    The GOP nominee’s surge is real, but perishable.
    1. Everything has gone Trump’s way — and he’s still not ahead

    3. Trump is getting cocky again

    4. Terrified Democrats are Clinton’s secret weapon.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    was the Blue Bell listeria ice cream thing too regional to have a national profile?

    Peanut butter recalls certainly do, including the salmonella outbreak caused by a factory that faked its screening results.

    Good metaphor for the slurry of Heritage policy ideas served up by Trump.
    posted by holgate at 1:12 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    > Rand-worshipping TV "journalist" John Stossel used to say the same thing about government-mandated elevator inspection, that if enough people were killed riding in Conglomo-MegaCorp elevators, then consumers would simply, I guess, avoid doing business or living in buildings with elevators built by that company? I don't know. It doesn't seem to make much sense, does it?

    When I'd get bored playing Roller Coaster Tycoon back in the day I'd build a coaster that just abruptly ended (preferably over a pond) mid-ride, and after its inaugural voyage ended in the deaths of all the riders nobody else would go on it. The system works!!!
    posted by The Card Cheat at 1:14 PM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    When I'd get bored playing Roller Coaster Tycoon back in the day I'd build a coaster that just abruptly ended (preferably over a pond) mid-ride, and after its inaugural voyage ended in the deaths of all the riders nobody else would ride it. The system works!!!

    At one point somebody figured out that if you rig it such that the riders hit the ground in a neighboring park, that park gets the blame for their deaths, driving more people to your park instead...
    posted by Pope Guilty at 1:16 PM on September 15, 2016 [37 favorites]


    And if we're not Americans? :'(

    Cheer the rest of us on?

    It's a good question, I don't know what the answer is. Any ideas hive mind?
    posted by VTX at 1:16 PM on September 15, 2016


    Here's everything Donald Trump just promised in his major speech on the economy
    Donald Trump on Thursday shared his economic vision with supporters gathered at the Waldorf Astoria hotel in Manhattan, promising trillions in tax cuts, energy reform, a crackdown on trade, and a reduction in the number of tax brackets.

    Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, estimated his plan would create 25 million in new jobs, and that the massive tax cut would be offset by gross domestic product growth of at least 3.5%, on average, each year for the next decade.

    "This is the most pro-growth, pro-jobs, pro-family plan put forth perhaps in the history of our country," Trump said, according to the prepared remarks. [...]

    Trump said the plan adds up because the $4.4 trillion in tax cuts he's proposed would be offset by the 3.5% average yearly growth in GDP, which has not been attained since 2004 and has only be reached once since 2001; his trade, energy, and regulation reforms; and what he called "common-sense reforms" that don't "touch defense spending and entitlements."

    His growth projection would offset $1.8 trillion of his tax plan, while the reforms would offset the remaining $2.6 trillion, he said.

    Jesus. It's Voodoo Economics on steroids.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:16 PM on September 15, 2016 [24 favorites]


    Deep Voodoo Economics
    posted by thelonius at 1:17 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    > So the campaign is definitely taking it seriously and not just depending on Americans having the good sense to make the right choice.

    Depending on *any* group of people to have the good sense to make the right choice is...always risky.

    > At one point somebody figured out that if you rig it such that the riders hit the ground in a neighboring park, that park gets the blame for their deaths, driving more people to your park instead...

    OMG amazing why didn't I think of that?

    posted by The Card Cheat at 1:18 PM on September 15, 2016


    Waldorf Astoria... the gathering place of the Real People.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 1:18 PM on September 15, 2016


    Doodoo economics.
    posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:19 PM on September 15, 2016 [33 favorites]


    Terrified Democrats are Clinton’s secret weapon.

    That's what I don't agree with. The only way we win this is if we, as far as we can, embrace the positive aspects of HRCs campaign/personality and broadcast our enthusiasm for her rather than our hatred for Trump. If we (acting as volunteers for her campaign so if you aren't doing that ignore this) stay positive, don't fight with allies, don't get bogged down in two-wrongs-make-a-right accusations against Trump, and keep saying "Hillary is great I like her yay here is why!" no matter how much vitriol comes from the right and snark from the left, then she has a chance. Undecideds want to vote for a winner as much as they want to vote for who represents their beliefs.

    Only a Face can beat a heel. Only the crowd cheering decides whether someone is a face or heel. Louder!
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:19 PM on September 15, 2016 [39 favorites]


    HRC doing her press conference now. I didn't catch the first question, but she's talking about getting votes out.

    Second question is about Aleppo & the latest agreement, and what the next steps should be.
    posted by cashman at 1:26 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Really minor point but something I caught this morning: Everyone Says Trump Is 6-Foot-2. So Why Does Trump’s Doctor Say He’s 6-Foot-3? A Theory
    Most everyone else puts him at 6-foot-2. That’s what Google says. That’s what Donald Trump: His Worth, Work, and World, by the staff of Forbes, says. That’s what the probably reliable CelebsMemoir.com says. In fairness, Bing.com suggests 6-foot-3, and Trump himself doth protest that media outlets don’t give him the inch. But look at that photo up there of Trump next to Jeb Bush. Jeb is 6-foot-3. Donald is … not.

    Why does this matter? The other disputed number floating around prior to the show’s airing was his weight, which the doctor’s note put at 236 pounds, though some reports suggested he's 267 pounds. At 6-foot-3, 236 pounds, his body mass index is a convenient 29.5—overweight but just a biscuit shy of obese (BMI of 30). At 6-foot-2, 236 pounds, he’s at 30.3—obese. BMI is a worthless measure of physical health, but maybe in this case it tells us a little something about a man's self-regard. Is it possible that Trump’s doctor added the extra inch so that his patient, who is not exactly lacking in vanity, would not be “officially” obese? Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.
    I caught that last night with the NYTimes reporting 6'2" and Politico reporting him 6'3"-- not that important but I was surprised there isn't a consensus. Most people know their height. To be fair there has been several different heights attributed to Clinton, but with women there is a difference depending on heel size.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:26 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    For folks wanting to read more about tax policy (I'm sure y'all exist, right?), the Tax Policy Center has a blog called TaxVox that's been providing decent mini-analyses. They probably won't have a full eval of Trump's New Improved Tax Plan 2.0: The ReTaxening, for a while, but here are some posts to hold you over:

    Donald Trump’s tax proposals could double the trade deficit
    Making tax shelters great again!
    We Are Learning Less About Trump’s Tax Plan, Not More
    Who Owns Pass-Through Businesses, And Who Would Benefit From Trump’s Plan To Cut Their Taxes?
    posted by melissasaurus at 1:27 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Oh for fucks sake. The 3rd question was about when Tim Kaine was told about HRC having Pneumonia, and how that would mean in her potential presidency that information would be shared with him. Just a ridiculous question.
    posted by cashman at 1:28 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Then Andrea Mitchell followed up with a question (not sure if she's the one who asked it originally) and then there was a 2nd follow up. Good god.
    posted by cashman at 1:30 PM on September 15, 2016


    Is it any wonder she doesn't like doing press conferences?
    posted by zachlipton at 1:31 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    3rd question in a row about pneumonia. Wheee.
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:31 PM on September 15, 2016


    Most people know their height. To be fair there has been several different heights attributed to Clinton, but with women there is a difference depending on heel size.

    I guess this is the moment I give Trump the benefit of the doubt for five seconds: my height is between 5'10" and 5'11", and it's such that I have owned two photo IDs issued by different outfits that disagreed within the same timeframe, taking pictures in the same shoes.
    posted by mordax at 1:33 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    The only way we win this is if we, as far as we can, embrace the positive aspects of HRCs campaign/personality and broadcast our enthusiasm for her rather than our hatred for Trump.

    We have the most accomplished and qualified person in history running for the presidency on a solidly middle-of-the-road Democratic platform with some elements borrowed directly from Bernie Sanders. One who has been repeatedly vetted and found to be essentially honest. One who has spent her life in public service. One who has repeatedly demonstrated she cares about the public good.

    Her opponent is an authoritarian strongman millionaire who has no background in public service, is a compulsive liar, and is goosing his campaign with rull-blown racists and antisemites.

    We need to beat Trump. I wish we had enthusiasm for Clinton. I think she deserves is and has earned it, but a combination of a right wing noise machine that has smeared her for three decades and the fact that she is a woman seems to preclude that actually happening, which is not her fault.

    If I have to scare Democrats into voting for the best candidate, that's what I'll do. Because Trump can't win, and she should.
    posted by maxsparber at 1:33 PM on September 15, 2016 [31 favorites]


    Welcome to the majors, Donald. You're playing with the big boys girls now.

    Think back when Trump selected Pence as his running mate. On Wednesday, July 13, Trump tweeted he'd be announcing his VP pick on at a press conference on Friday, July 15. Then he postponed the press conference because of the attack in Nice. Then he announced Pence via Twitter on the same day it would've been inappropriate to hold a press conference.

    Fifteen minutes later, Hillary tweeted her response to the Pence pick, complete with video. The Clinton campaign has its shit together.
    posted by kirkaracha at 1:35 PM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    My dad always tried to claim that the market would just naturally sort out food producers who don't ensure food safety because consumers would vote with their wallets. Which kind of ignores the fact that some people have to first drop dead in order to identify which companies are not quite up to snuff so that the rest of us can then use our purchasing power to AVOID DEATH.

    It astonishes me that people with this much of a grasp of supply and demand don't also realize that companies that adulterate their products would make more profits, thus pressuring other companies to do the same, leading to a race to the bottom. There'd be no way to vote with one's wallet if every company decided it couldn't afford food safety, or if "boutique" markets in safe food emerged with low supply and high prices.
    posted by Gelatin at 1:35 PM on September 15, 2016 [22 favorites]


    Her opponent is an authoritarian strongman millionaire who has no background in public service, is a compulsive liar, and is goosing his campaign with rull-blown racists and antisemites.
    Sounds like Traditional America to me.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 1:35 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I don't think scaring people will work is what I'm saying. I think the scaring without the cheerleading is turning some voters off. You do what you gotta, I'm encouraging everyone who reads these threads to say nice things, rebroadcast positive messages (like that awesome speech the pastor from flint gave or positive viral ads) and cheer when we score points.
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:36 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Or volunteer, nothing will really happen online.
    posted by zutalors! at 1:37 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    If I lived in the U.S. I would bitterly resent having to make any effort whatsoever to convince anyone to vote for Clinton (or at the very least not vote for Trump), in the same way that I would resent having to explain to grown adults why you shouldn't put your hand in a fire, drive a car blindfolded, or eat a tuna sandwich you found on the ground.
    posted by The Card Cheat at 1:39 PM on September 15, 2016 [56 favorites]


    We all learned from Gore-Bush not to roll our eyes.
    posted by zutalors! at 1:40 PM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    nothing will really happen online.

    Volunteering is the best but the internet is real life and the things we say and communicate here matter.
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:41 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    To find Hillary Clinton likable, we must learn to view women as complex beings
    Jonathan Chait made perhaps the most radical statement of this election season when he referred to Hillary Clinton as “a normal politician with normal political failings.” It feels groundbreaking to discuss Clinton in such benign terms because that’s simply not how she’s understood. She’s at best “the lesser of two evils” and at worst a scheming Lady Macbeth hungry for power.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:41 PM on September 15, 2016 [35 favorites]


    I did have a hard time, when I was canvassing, not to yell NOOOOOOO at the undecided woman who said she didn't want any literature from me because "I watch a lot of news on the TV." Jesus Christ, don't do that!
    posted by soren_lorensen at 1:42 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    September is National Food Safety Month
    posted by erisfree at 1:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Most people know their height.

    I like to say that I'm 5'6" on a good day.
    posted by OverlappingElvis at 1:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    If I lived in the U.S. I would bitterly resent having to make any effort whatsoever to convince anyone to vote for Clinton (or at the very least not vote for Trump)

    I'm working on talking myself down to bitter resentment. I'm currently at "I will be satisfied with nothing less than a vagenda of manocide." My goal would be to achieve the "bless your heart" or "oh my sweet summer child" level of resentment, but I'm not sure that's a realistic goal at this time.
    posted by melissasaurus at 1:45 PM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Hah! I say the same except 5'2". Every inch counts for me.
    posted by misskaz at 1:46 PM on September 15, 2016


    Out of curiosity, how tall do you like to say you are on a bad day?
    posted by kythuen at 1:46 PM on September 15, 2016


    Volunteering is the best but the internet is real life and the things we say and communicate here matter.

    Flagged as hilarious!
    posted by indubitable at 1:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    i like to say i'm "taller than two turtle doves on christmas" and then steal my interlocutors wallet as they try and do the math in their head
    posted by Tevin at 1:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    I've gone through life thinking one's height was from the sole of your foot to the top of your head, not counting hair. No shoes, no bouffant.
    posted by achrise at 1:49 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I'm much taller in the morning than I am in the evening.

    Because the world is fucking crushing me.
    posted by maxsparber at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    To find Hillary Clinton likable, we must learn to view women as complex beings

    This article might as well be titled, "My Life in Fandom as a Fan of Female Characters." Because ayuuuuup. Yep yep yep. And it's not shocking but pretty fucking disappointing that the same reasons why everyone hates one half of my OTP are poised to kill us all in a mushroom cloud.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [26 favorites]


    Think back when Trump selected Pence as his running mate. On Wednesday, July 13, Trump tweeted he'd be announcing his VP pick on at a press conference on Friday, July 15. Then he postponed the press conference because of the attack in Nice. Then he announced Pence via Twitter on the same day it would've been inappropriate to hold a press conference.

    Fifteen minutes later, Hillary tweeted her response to the Pence pick, complete with video. The Clinton campaign has its shit together.


    I imagine that most coordinated, forward-looking, well-staffed campaigns (that pay their staff with real money, not empty promises) have a ton of pre-made materials just in case of various scenarios, like CNN's pre-written draft memorials (that were accidentally publicly available for a while in 2003). Any credible rumor leads to quick action, so once the rumor is confirmed, a prepared response is reviewed for accuracy and distributed.
    posted by filthy light thief at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2016


    I like to say that I'm 5'6" on a good day.

    Hah! I say the same except 5'2". Every inch counts for me.

    If you're 5'2" but you tell people you're 5'6", it sounds like some inches count more than once.
    posted by The Tensor at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    It astonishes me that people with this much of a grasp of supply and demand don't also realize that companies that adulterate their products would make more profits, thus pressuring other companies to do the same, leading to a race to the bottom. There'd be no way to vote with one's wallet if every company decided it couldn't afford food safety, or if "boutique" markets in safe food emerged with low supply and high prices.

    That's because they do not have any grasp of supply and demand. Words like 'market' and 'supply' and 'demand' are just tribal markers for them. It's like how some people are Christian, and they know about The Sermon on the Mount and the Pharisees and whatnot, while other people go to church to complain about the War on Christmas.

    Some people are for real, many people are just stupid assholes with a certain tribal identification.

    When I was studying this to obtain my degree in economics, we talked a lot about both the power of markets, and their limitations. We discussed how regulations came about, and had lots of nuanced discussions of how best to implement them. There's stuff I'd love to regulate less, regulate more or place under direct government control, depending on how much I actually wanted market success/failure to impact service, because it's like fire: really powerful, but not the best tool for every scenario.

    For these stupid assholes, it's just 'market good,' end of train of thought. They don't understand it, they can't picture it, they could never discuss any part of it without sounding like a child... and that's how they *want* it.

    It isn't even that they just couldn't figure it out. The math doesn't get hard for awhile. They are just *willfully* ignorant, and they will squeal the loudest if they're ever unfortunate enough to drag us all into their preferred Dickensian nightmare.
    posted by mordax at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    And here's Fletch. He's 6'5", with the Afro, 6'9...
    posted by Mchelly at 1:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    It's crushing all of us, actually. It's called gravity, and we all change height over the course of the day.
    posted by maxsparber at 1:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    was the Blue Bell listeria ice cream thing too regional to have a national profile?

    So I literally live down the road from the main Blue Bell factory. My neighbors and friends work there. Mostly I got the sense of "why is the government denying us our beloved ice cream with their silly regulations." So maybe not in the direction of science?

    On the other hand, Blue Bell is truly an awesome company to work for and they treat their employees really well, with actual pensions and stuff, plus mmm, ice cream.
    posted by threeturtles at 2:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    I'm 5'4", but with my ego I'm 5'5".
    posted by stolyarova at 2:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I always thought I was 6' 2" but recently a friend who is the same height as me said he was 6' 3" and now I doubt myself. Only empiricism can save me now.
    posted by tclark at 2:05 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    So apparently, there is a pollster named Bernie Porn.

    Reality is just fucking with us now, apparently.
    posted by NoxAeternum at 2:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Most men I know over the age of fifty seem to overestimate their height by an inch or two. You start losing height around that age but most men seem to ignore that and insist that they're the same height that they were at 18.
    posted by octothorpe at 2:14 PM on September 15, 2016


    soren_lorensen: And it's not shocking but pretty fucking disappointing that the same reasons why everyone hates one half of my OTP are poised to kill us all in a mushroom cloud.

    Oh, man, you're giving me PTSD flashbacks to my days in fandom. (If you love Spike so much and despise Buffy, WHY DO YOU WANT THEM TO BE TOGETHER LEAVE HER ALONE HER LIFE IS HARD AND SHE'S AMAZING!)

    Goddamn I wish this diet allowed me room for some sweet, soothing, creamy avocado-based goodness. I'm having some difficulty keeping my moods stable without it but I really cannot afford a new wardrobe.
    posted by Superplin at 2:18 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]




    THIS DERAIL IS DEFINITELY HELPJNG FASCISM ASSGFFDDADFGFFA

    Signed, PA, 6ft tall
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:19 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    ASSGFFDDADFGFFA

    Not to be a pedant, but the correct spelling is "Ggggagarrgaggggglluarrrgh!"
    posted by Joey Michaels at 2:20 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    MRGLGLGLGL
    posted by stolyarova at 2:20 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Most men I know over the age of fifty seem to overestimate

    The number of okcupid dudes I've met in real life who have accurately assessed their own height is staggeringly low. It's not something unique to older dudes, though I can only imagine it gets worse once you start shrinking.
    posted by phunniemee at 2:20 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Well yes. If we continue to type gibberish, one of our mods may rain down fascist terror upon us.
    posted by zachlipton at 2:22 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    who's your OTP?

    Yeah, you know me
    You down with OTP?
    Yeah, you know me
    posted by beerperson at 2:22 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    So apparently, there is a pollster named Bernie Porn.

    The writers are just phoning it in lately.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:24 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Anyone who wants to know what not having food regulations looks like, please read the perfectly horrifying
    TREATISE ON ADULTERATIONS OF FOOD, AND CULINARY POISONS.
    EXHIBITING
    The Fraudulent Sophistications of BREAD, BEER, WINE, SPIRITOUS LIQUORS, TEA, COFFEE, CREAM, CONFECTIONERY, VINEGAR, MUSTARD, PEPPER, CHEESE, OLIVE OIL, PICKLES, AND OTHER ARTICLES EMPLOYED IN DOMESTIC ECONOMY.
    Fun excerpt!

    Thomas Jones deposed, that he knew Proctor, and was employed by him at the latter end of April, 1817, to gather black and white thorn leaves. Sloe leaves were the black thorn. Witness also knew John Malins, the son of William Malins, a coffee-roaster; he did not at first know the purpose for which the leaves were gathered, but afterwards learnt they were to make imitation tea. Witness did not gather more than one hundred and a half weight of these leaves; but he employed another person, of the name of John Bagster, to gather them. He had two-pence per pound for them. They were first boiled, and the water squeezed from them in a press. They were afterwards placed over a slow-fire upon sheets of copper to dry; while on the copper they were rubbed with the hand to curl them. At the time of boiling there was a little verdigris put into the water (this applied to green tea only.) After the leaves were dried, they were sifted, to separate the thorns and stalks. After they were sifted, more verdigris and some Dutch pink were added. The verdigris gave the leaves that green bloom observable on genuine tea.

    The black tea went through a similar course as the green, except the application of Dutch pink: a little verdigris was put in the boiling, and to this was added a small quantity of logwood to dye it, and thus the manufacture was complete. The drying operation took place on sheets of iron. Witness knew the defendant, Edward Palmer; he took some of the mixture he had been describing, to his shop. The first time he took some was in May, 1817. In the course of that month, or the beginning of June, he took four or five seven-pound parcels; when he took it there, it was taken up to the top of the house. Witness afterwards carried some to Russell-street, which was taken to the top of the house, about one hundred weight and three quarters; from this quantity he carried fifty-three pounds weight to the house of the defendant's porter, by the desire of Mr. Malins; it was in paper parcels of seven pounds each.


    Verdigris is toxic: "INGESTION: Acute ingestion of copper salts can cause irritation, severe nausea and vomiting, salivation, abdominal pain, epigastric burning, hemolysis, gastrointestinal bleeding with hemorrhagic gastritis, hematemesis and melena, anemia, hypotension, jaundice, seizures, coma, shock and death. Hepatic and renal failure may develop several days after acute ingestion. Methemoglobinemia may rarely occur. Copper may produce a metallic or sweet taste."

    Me, I like my green tea without the best-case-scenario of severe nausea and vomiting.
    posted by winna at 2:24 PM on September 15, 2016 [15 favorites]




    And if we're not Americans? :'(

    No matter what happens here in November, it will not be the end of politics or the struggle for a more just world. If Clinton is elected, we will still need the assistance of all the world's leaders to confront issues like climate change, economic injustice, war and terrorism, pandemics, and more. And sometimes we will need their strong opposition, to prevent the worst excesses of American foreign policy. And if Trump is elected... well, we need world leaders who remember that despite his election, he does not represent all Americans, and the rest of us are counting on them to protect the world from Trump and our fascist countrymen.

    21st century fascism is a global phenomenon, and Trump is only one manifestation of it. We need people of good will around the world to elect and support leaders who will oppose it tirelessly, both in their home countries and abroad. It's on we Americans to try to prevent a Trump presidency, but if fascism really does take control of the U.S. government, then the last hope of the rest of us Americans may be foreign leaders who can fight it on the world stage.

    Give us leaders who can work with Clinton, or against Trump. It's as vitally important as the outcome of the U.S. election.
    posted by biogeo at 2:28 PM on September 15, 2016 [16 favorites]


    Please avoid Gibberish, it makes you sound like a Trumpist. (And if elected, Donald WILL make Gibberish the Official Language).
    posted by oneswellfoop at 2:30 PM on September 15, 2016


    Too many syllables, he would call it Funny Talk.
    posted by biogeo at 2:31 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Great tweetstorm from a music journalist investigating the public records on the trump foundation.

    Eh, making hay out of whether the board members really spent 30 minutes a week on Foundation duties or not seems pretty silly. Every Form 990 has the list of board members with a vague estimate of time devoted to the organization, and everyone acknowledges that the hours are just an estimate. Putting down a couple hours/month/board member is utterly common for non-profits of all sizes. And nobody says that there can't be non-board staff and accountants.

    And a bunch of his other conclusions has been reported far more extensively by others, including noting the big donation from Richard Ebers. His point seems to be "yeah I just googled this IRS form and here's what I found, so why don't real reporters do more?" but a number of reporters have already done significantly more, the Washington Post, in particular, such as in: How Donald Trump retooled his charity to spend other people’s money. The New York Times, on the other hand, not so much.
    posted by zachlipton at 2:35 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    That tweetstorm is an indictment of the press.
    Rob Tannenbaum‏ @tannenbaumr

    I'm not a CPA, an IRS agent, or an investigative reporter. But I did want to show how easy it would be for a reporter to find this shit.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:37 PM on September 15, 2016 [29 favorites]


    They showed Clinton's NC speech on Fox, the whole speech without cutaways, and the chyrons saying things like "Clinton: helping children led me to politics" and "Doctor: Clinton fit to serve as president". Is that normal or is Fox having some kind of... pivot?
    posted by bayleaf at 2:41 PM on September 15, 2016 [19 favorites]



    That tweetstorm is an indictment of the press.


    Seriously that stuff needs to be all the press is talking about for a few days wrt Trump.
    posted by zutalors! at 2:41 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    a number of reporters have already done significantly more, the Washington Post, in particular,

    He was inspired by Farentholdt.

    This bit on minimum distributions not being met is news to me.
    2012: 7.8 percent. That's good. But in 2011, 2010, 2009, and 2008, the Trump Foundation did not meet the mandatory minimum distribution...
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    So I found out that I had a Trump supporter student, when in my writing class, after receiving a bit of a rant about the repressive left in a paper, I was all *we want to practice as much tolerance as possible, so, however you may feel, address behaviors you have an issue with w/o engaging in stereotypes. So, no repressive left paragraphs, avoid paragraphs how all Trump supporters are racist*

    To which a girl responded "But we're NOT"

    She had earlier told me how (I don't know the context--armed forces?) she had met and shaken hands with Putin. Now, if I hadn't been distracted I might have been like *and then you rushed, shaking, to wash the fascism off, right* but I was distracted and was just like *oh man. did he have his shirt on?*

    Now I'm like *shit is she like thinking what an amazing moment to meet such an amazing man* because I replayed the shirt comment I'd made to her after the Putin anecdote and while I know that isn't the height of wit, she wasn't amused by it at all.

    So I teach writing, not history or psychology, so my whole thing is grammar, evaluating sources, nothing that arguably touches upon the rise of fascism in the U.S. But of course many instructors do teach such courses. So today I said, *hey guys, are other instructors talking about the election in your classes*

    Students said instructors were NOT touching it.

    I mean it's fucking college. We could talk about jeezum crow I don't know is federalism a good or bad thing here are some reasonable opinions on both sides.

    But (my working theory) is that because those instructors who might vote for Trump (we're talking affluent Philly suburb here so there are probably a few) have no reasonable arguments for the man. It may be tribal affiliation, it might be racism, it might be whatever, but there is Not. One. Single. Argument. That is worthy of reasonable debate as to whether Trump would be a better president than Clinton.

    I guess I could go on a one-woman crusade and make an assignment where the job is to, based on experience and policy, make the case for DJT. That would be fun. And I probably wouldn't receive any more classes, because I work at McDonalds I mean I work as an adjunct.

    But then I would have to read those fuckers. Everybody has limits.
    posted by angrycat at 2:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [28 favorites]


    It's because all the complaining about how Dems are mean to the white working class, don't get their culture, call them yokels, etc. is really a slap in the face to the many, many people who are white and working class and are horrified by Trumpism.

    I think one contributor to this is a broad cultural omission of working class intellectuals. I think of myself in this way, because my upbringing left me unprepared for the fussy upper middle class world of academia (eg, my advisor asks me questions about fantasy football like an anthropologist on Mars).

    I've also known a probably unusually high number of folks like this in my life, because I think we can, like, sense each other at bougie events, like

    you there, the one uncomfortable with these tiny beef medallions and weird mushrooms they are serving us for dinner, tell me about your research

    There are so many interesting, curious, well-read, self-educated working class people out there, who know all too well what injustice occurs when every child is not blessed with the opportunity to fulfill their potential. And they know which candidate used the surfeit of blessings in his life to be an ignorant, incurious caricature of the boss's asshole son.
    posted by palindromic at 2:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [37 favorites]


    If anyone wants to easily view the foundation's 990PF forms, you can find all of them on the NYS AG's charities website (search "Trump" in the name field and it should come up). The Eric Trump Foundation is also available. [In NYS "charities" have a separate registration process with the AG for fundraising/expenditure/fraud oversight in addition to the federal tax exemption process.]
    posted by melissasaurus at 2:53 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    So I teach writing, not history or psychology, so my whole thing is grammar, evaluating sources, nothing that arguably touches upon the rise of fascism in the U.S.

    A citizenry with the skills to evaluate sources is a pretty big bulwark against authoritarianism, no?
    posted by tivalasvegas at 2:54 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    yeah, it's a nice theory
    posted by angrycat at 3:01 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    I always say I'm 6'4" minus exactly one foot.
    posted by pxe2000 at 3:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Angrycat: I had a student who was openly racist. I wrote an assignment that forced all the students to engage with people in a so-called ghetto. For the students who were not white, this was an easy assignment where they could draw upon their personal experience, even if they were middle class. For the open-minded white students, the assignment was interesting and challenged their internalized racism in a way they could deal with. For the very few racist students, including the one mentioned above, it was eye-opening.
    I often complain that I spend too much of my time writing the curriculum. When one does something like this, one obviously needs to write the assignment, the curriculum, the daily tasks in a way that doesn't alert right wing pols. I'm not saying it is easy, but it is definitely necessary.
    posted by mumimor at 3:03 PM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    I'm starting to get excited about this Saturday: I'm going to a statewide Women's Summit (an official HFA event) with Gabby Giffords, Gloria Steinem (although I confess she's annoyed me on several occasions, she's certainly a trailblazing woman), the Executive Director of Emily's List, and HFA's National Women's Vote Director. It's billed as an "intensive organizing summit" to discuss messaging and ground game strategies for the next 50-odd days. I hope to meet some cool-ass ladypeople and get fired up for a big push in these final weeks.
    posted by Superplin at 3:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [38 favorites]


    Clinton Moves to Fix Millennial Problem With Assist From Sanders: Underperforming with young voters amid a trust deficit, Clinton plans a speech on Monday to directly address millennials.

    Least Sanders can do since he helped create the problem.
    posted by chris24 at 3:12 PM on September 15, 2016 [24 favorites]


    Survivalists (and raw milk/cheese people) are exactly who Trump is appealing to with the FDA stuff, for what it's worth.

    Trump is appealing to the companies that are pushing anti-food safety legislation through at state levels, to get campaign donations. Survivalists don't have that kind of money. If you want to know what a country looks like without an FDA, just look at what the Monsantos would do with GM and other food safety regulations, if given an even wider, freer hand to dictate local laws and control public safety matters than they already have.
    posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:17 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    No thanks. Read The Jungle the one time. No desire to live it.
    posted by Archelaus at 3:20 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    > Least Sanders can do since he helped create the problem.
    posted by chris24 at 3:12 PM on September 15 [3 favorites +] [!]


    Lord have mercy.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:22 PM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


    just look at what the Monsantos would do with GM

    I see where Bayer is paying like 66 billion to buy Monsanto.

    [/derail]
    posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:23 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Students said instructors were NOT touching it.

    I mean it's fucking college. We could talk about jeezum crow I don't know is federalism a good or bad thing here are some reasonable opinions on both sides.


    I told my classes on the first day that we were not going to talk about politics in this class. We are going to write about video games. You want to write about politics, pick another section.

    So far, no one has dropped.

    I just don't want to deal with it, and I don't want to make my job any harder than it needs to be. And it's not like I can approach the election with an open mind, despite how much I believe that logic, reality, and basic human decency are on my side (which is a pretty good sign I'm not that objective).
    posted by bibliowench at 3:23 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    who's your OTP?

    Oh, you know, it's the one where everyone says "I don't hate all female characters, just her, for reasons that mysteriously exactly describe the male half of the pairing who I love." That narrows it down, right?

    It's Ten/Rose, don't judge me.

    posted by soren_lorensen at 3:24 PM on September 15, 2016 [15 favorites]


    Lord have mercy.

    I'm sorry, but this one is all his to own. Drum has a good breakdown:

    That said, Clinton is clearly doing worse among millennials than Obama did four years ago. But it's a very restricted group of millennials. Over at 538, Harry Enten lays out some survey data which suggests that virtually all of the defection is in 18-24 age group. Older millennials are supporting Clinton at about the rate you'd expect.

    So what's the deal with this very young age group? Here's where I part from Clara: I reserve most of my frustration for Bernie Sanders. He's the one who convinced these folks that Clinton was in the pocket of Wall Street. She gave a speech to Goldman Sachs! He's the one who convinced them she was a tool of wealthy elites. She's raising money from rich people! He's the one who convinced them she was a corporate shill. She supported the TPP! He's the one who, when he finally endorsed her, did it so grudgingly that he sounded like a guy being held hostage. He's the one who did next to nothing to get his supporters to stop booing her from the convention floor. He's the one who promised he'd campaign his heart out to defeat Donald Trump, but has done hardly anything since—despite finding plenty of time to campaign against Debbie Wasserman Schultz and set up an anti-TPP movement.

    There's a reason that very young millennials are strongly anti-Clinton even though the same age group supported Obama energetically during his elections. A small part is probably just that Clinton is 68 years old (though Sanders was older). Part of it is probably that she simply isn't the inspirational speaker that Obama was. But most of it can be laid at the feet of Bernie Sanders. He convinced young voters that Hillary Clinton was a shifty, corrupt, lying shill who cared nothing for real progressive values—despite a literal lifetime of fighting for them. Sadly, that stuck.


    So yeah, this one's on him.
    posted by NoxAeternum at 3:25 PM on September 15, 2016 [69 favorites]


    Just got back from my first volunteer shift. I got to woman a table in front, greet people, sell Hillary swag, and be very smiley. I also stumbled into an internship, cos the Lead Organizer was in desperate need of "someone cool to just walk in the door" since they are too swamped to actively recruit someone. Everyone was super happy to have volunteers and donors stop in. People were also feeling worried because of recent polling trends but are determined to work hard and GOTV.

    I would highly recommend volunteering, if you're on the fence.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 3:32 PM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]


    I have no idea whose fault it is, but I don't think that Bernie wants a Trump presidency any more than any of the rest of us do, so I think he'd probably like to help prevent that if he can.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:32 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Sounds like he's on his way to Ohio soon. I'd like to see Sanders park his ass in Ohio, Florida, Colorado, and Virginia from now until election day.
    posted by Justinian at 3:34 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    There are so many interesting, curious, well-read, self-educated working class people out there, who know all too well what injustice occurs when every child is not blessed with the opportunity to fulfill their potential.

    But they mostly moved out of Whichever Town A Large Media Org Sent Its Reporter Today and only go back for holidays, but maybe not this year's holidays. Or the year after.
    posted by holgate at 3:36 PM on September 15, 2016


    We are going to write about video games.
    This isn't politics, Professor! It's about ethics in video game journalism. Sorry, I just.. couldn't.. resist. Also, I wish I could take your class.
    He convinced young voters that Hillary Clinton was a shifty, corrupt, lying shill who cared nothing for real progressive values—despite a literal lifetime of fighting for them. Sadly, that stuck.
    These people might be a little too young and naive to understand that all the "anti-Bernie" stuff with the DNC was to prevent exactly these sorts of wounds. From the establishment Democrat's perspective, Bernie is an independent outsider beating up on the most likely candidate, and they wanted him to shut up as soon as possible. While I appreciate his planks getting into the DNC platform, I'm annoyed that he didn't try to trade in his political capital sooner.
    posted by xyzzy at 3:41 PM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Food safety regulations, pshaw. I missed a couple of days of work earlier this year after eating fish soup at a dodgy restaurant. My wife called it food poisoning, but in Trump's America it will be known as Freedom Bacteria.
    posted by The Card Cheat at 3:42 PM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    I very much appreciate that there is a young Millennial outreach effort being made. While this is one area where I'm very pessimistic about the possibility of wife-ranging success (strictly because, in my own personal bubble, the anti-Clinton progressives are much more firmly anti-Clinton than anyone else in my life, including Republicans) the fact that Clinton is willing to (again and again) directly reach out to them is one of the reasons I believe in my heart she's going to win.

    Indeed, the people who have shared the most virulently offensive anti-Clinton memes in my world are college-aged ultra-progressive women. It is so disheartening, but even if they're actively against Clinton, they will personally benefit from a Clinton presidency much more than from a Trump presidency so I don't despair. Even if they're making some unwise political choices now, their future is part of the reason I'm with her.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 3:42 PM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    angrycat: "address behaviors you have an issue with w/o engaging in stereotypes. So, no repressive left paragraphs, avoid paragraphs how all Trump supporters are racist*

    To which a girl responded "But we're NOT"
    "

    Would listening comprehension be on-topic for your course? Because I'm unreasonably bothered that this is her response when you were already calling it a stereotype and saying don't do it. Does she think stereotypes have to be true?
    posted by RobotHero at 3:50 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Nobody will personally benefit from a Trump presidency except Yog-Sothoth, the Eater of Souls.
    posted by uosuaq at 3:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    The line of reasoning that starts with lack of support for Clinton among the 18-24 demographic and ends with denunciations of Sanders for having run a spirited campaign — a campaign that if nothing else greatly helped Clinton's general election chances by pushing her farther to the left than she would have gone otherwise — is a line of reasoning that confirms the idea that the Democratic Party is:
    • Not a valid site for political dispute, unless that dispute is expressed in the tamest possible terms, and
    • Not a valid venue for left political action.
    In short, it reflects a belief about the nature of the Democratic Party that strongly resembles what the Trotskyists believe.

    Please don't prove the Trotskyists right.

    Regardless of whether or not you think that Sanders continued his campaign for longer than he should have, it is deeply uncharitable to respond to news that he's campaigning for Clinton with lazy snark. Moreover, and more importantly, it is also deeply unpersuasive. Regardless of whether or not you personally take low pleasure in — lord, I don't know what, Sanders's public submission to Clinton? — it is probably best to keep that low pleasure to yourself. Expressing it in public wins no votes for Clinton and builds no enthusiasm for Clinton.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:54 PM on September 15, 2016 [35 favorites]


    Eh, he hammered her the hardest on the Goldman Sachs stuff, which wasn't about policy at all, and just played into the (wrong and unfair IMO) idea that she's a crypto-center-rightist who loves yuge banks and is secretive and a liar and cannot be trusted.

    He still has time to do better, and I hope he does. I don't want to see a show of submission fcs, I want to see him rally all that enthusiasm and loyalty he built up towards something more meaningful than avenging himself against the perfidious DWS.
    posted by prize bull octorok at 4:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]


    It really sucks that people talk about Millenials like we're brain-dead rats that got led away by the pied piper of burlington.

    Reminder: there are still more young people voting for Clinton than there are old people voting for her. But if she loses, we'll get blamed -- and we'll get blamed as a whole demographic -- rather than the demographic groups that have actually voted for the fascists.

    I firmly disagree with the bernie or busters' calculus and I find them irritating and frustrating. But they aren't the enemy, the fascists are.

    Agreed that Sanders can and should do more to support the campaign now that it's officially On.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 4:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [34 favorites]


    The only other explanation for 18-24 year olds is that they were too young to have experienced the Gore/Bush 2000 election and actually believe both parties are the same (and/or there's no consequence to voting third party), even though their grandparents, parents, and older siblings know better.
    posted by FJT at 4:10 PM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    For those of you keeping score at home the Triumph was found two blocks away with a pair of someone else's keys and a bunch of game tokens from a nearby arcade-bar. I guess someone got tired of pushing it.

    Still terrified of Trump.
    posted by localhuman at 4:10 PM on September 15, 2016 [76 favorites]


    Hey maybe a great way not to alienate people at all is NOT BRING UP OLD BATTLES BETWEEN ALLIES. Why would your first reaction to "Bernies helping!" be "WELL HE STARTED IT?" Who gives a fuck? He's a warm body throw em at the vortex!!!!


    And I'm saying the same thing to all the lefties who can't stomach accepting GOP defectors help. I don't care, if Satans hairdresser wants to write an op Ed about how terrible trump is, fine! Let's all just keep shooting in the one direction for 2 months ok? At! The! Vortex!
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:11 PM on September 15, 2016 [34 favorites]


    and we'll get blamed as a whole demographic

    if it makes you feel any better, my generation is still undecided as to whether you or the Boomers are worse
    posted by prize bull octorok at 4:12 PM on September 15, 2016 [23 favorites]


    If you're a Gen Xer like me, the answer is that we're the worst.
    posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on September 15, 2016 [25 favorites]


    Not to be all "think of the children" but I think the young voters of 2024 are going to be really pissed if we mess up this election.
    posted by zutalors! at 4:16 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Nah boomers are still the worst. We're just, like, eh, whatever.
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:17 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    we didn't try hard enough to be the worst
    posted by prize bull octorok at 4:17 PM on September 15, 2016 [22 favorites]


    Regardless of whether or not you personally take low pleasure in — lord, I don't know what, Sanders's public submission to Clinton? — it is probably best to keep that low pleasure to yourself.

    Not sure how my comment gets warped into wanting public humiliation for Sanders. It's completely possible to think Sanders did good work in pushing and keeping the conversation left and getting Clinton sharp for the general, and think he hasn't done much yet to counteract a perception he helped create. If the bit of exasperation with that was too much attitude, I'll gladly change it to 'Thank God Bernie is finally getting out there.'
    posted by chris24 at 4:18 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    I'm a snake person, too. We'll always be blamed for everything (until we're 70 and there's a new young generation to pick on - robot people, probably).
    posted by stolyarova at 4:18 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    If you're a Gen Xer like me, the answer is that we're the worst.

    Yeah, as a fellow Gen Xer, I feel like we're the worst, because we're just young enough to be as screwed as you guys, but old enough to remember how it went down... and yet.

    (Old high school classmates are why I stopped using Facebook. I couldn't take it. I didn't want to punch someone if I ran into them at the grocery store.)
    posted by mordax at 4:18 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    If you look at the PPP crosstabs by age (from end of Aug), page 39, you can see the following support for Clinton vs. Trump:

    18-29: 63% Clinton to 24% Trump
    30-45: 52% to 35%
    46-65: 46% to 47%
    65+: 44% to 51%

    In the 4-way race, Clinton's support is:
    52%
    42%
    42%
    37%

    Seems like the kids are doing ok. Can you Olds come get your friends please?
    posted by melissasaurus at 4:18 PM on September 15, 2016 [37 favorites]


    I think the young voters of 2024 are going to be really pissed if we mess up this election.

    You're assuming childbirth will still be possible in the irradiated post-apocalyptic wasteland that once was America.

    brb off to rewatch Children of Men
    posted by tivalasvegas at 4:20 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Hey, I thought Trump said he didn't get much with the olds.
    posted by stolyarova at 4:21 PM on September 15, 2016



    You're assuming childbirth will still be possible in the irradiated post-apocalyptic wasteland that once was America


    What? It's 8 years from now, they're ten year olds.
    posted by zutalors! at 4:21 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    For those of you keeping score at home the Triumph was found two blocks away with a pair of someone else's keys and a bunch of game tokens from a nearby arcade-bar. I guess someone got tired of pushing it.

    I'm glad that there's some good news in this thread.
    posted by indubitable at 4:21 PM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    math is hard
    posted by tivalasvegas at 4:23 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Younger millennials were children/infants when Bill Clinton was president. They don't grasp the shock that came with moving from the (comparitively) peaceful and prosper Clinton presidency to the Bush presidency.

    They know about it, the same way I know that Reagan won due to a variety of factors like the Oil Crisis and a divided Democratic party. But as someone born in the early 80's, it's hard to understand why.

    What they do understand of the Clintons likely revolves around Lewinsky, the impeachment, Hillary's trainwreck of a campaign in 08, Benghazi, Emails, and the DNC Leak. Those are the Clintons they experienced.
    posted by asteria at 4:28 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    glad you found the tr6. those things are beautiful.

    had to load the whole thread because in "recent activity" the quote about triumph made me think it was some new name for trump. who had been found with someone else's keys and arcade tokens. and i didn't really doubt it, but was wondering what i had missed.

    anyhooo.... team white penis is doing rather well in the polls right now isn't it?
    posted by andrewcooke at 4:28 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Eh, he hammered her the hardest on the Goldman Sachs stuff, which wasn't about policy at all, and just played into the (wrong and unfair IMO) idea that she's a crypto-center-rightist who loves yuge banks and is secretive and a liar and cannot be trusted.

    That's one way of seeing it. Way I see it, as someone who put cash money into the Sanders campaign, is that Hillary Clinton is in fact a better capitalist that Donald Trump.

    Which is probably why he's terrified of his taxes getting out. His BRAND can't survive the disclosure that Hillary Clinton is far wealthier than he is.
    posted by mikelieman at 4:34 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    well, i sit here watching 538 and when it gets bad i wonder who is going to make it better. and so i come here hoping something has changed. and then i guess i go and get a drink.
    posted by andrewcooke at 4:34 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    a campaign that if nothing else greatly helped Clinton's general election chances by pushing her farther to the left than she would have gone otherwise

    I am hoping you mean this in the "Sanders acted as a bellweather for the mood of the Democratic Party/Left" way and less in the "Clinton has no liberal/progressive ideas and stances of her own" way.
    posted by asteria at 4:36 PM on September 15, 2016 [15 favorites]


    Anyone seen this bubbling up anywhere else (without the sensationalist headline)?

    Hillary Clinton campaign systematically overcharging poorest donors.
    posted by jammer at 4:36 PM on September 15, 2016


    and then i guess i go and get a drink.

    There's your problem right there you need to make that a lot more continuous.
    posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:39 PM on September 15, 2016


    Hillary Clinton campaign systematically overcharging poorest donors

    Go for the sensationalist headline.


    "Wells Fargo fraud..."

    Stay for the irony.

    [real]
    posted by mikelieman at 4:39 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Jammer, the Observer is owned by a Trump family member.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:40 PM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    That's the Observer, owned by Ivanka's husband Jared Kushner. Not to say that there isn't a few issues with some accounts, but hardly bias free.
    posted by chris24 at 4:40 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Anyone seen this bubbling up anywhere else (without the sensationalist headline)?
    It would also be more credible if it were published in a media outlet that wasn't owned by Ivanka Trump's husband. I don't think the Observer is really a credible news source on anything related to this election (or anything else.)
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:41 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    anyhooo.... team white penis is doing rather well in the polls right now isn't it?

    Rosa Weenies Macht Frei
    posted by y2karl at 4:42 PM on September 15, 2016


    And let's not forget that Trump had a website that for a while didn't allow you to cancel a recurring donation. While Clinton's website does allow that.
    posted by chris24 at 4:42 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Ahh, hadn't made the mental link to THAT Observer. OK, squelching my "oh gods, here we go again" panic.
    posted by jammer at 4:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Disclosure: Donald Trump is the father-in-law of Jared Kushner, the publisher of Observer Media.
    posted by mikelieman at 4:43 PM on September 15, 2016


    I just wanted to share that I went on a tinder date last night with a Bernie supporter who was planning not to vote at all and we spent two hours over dinner debating Hillary. He believed she's corrupt (pay to play with her foundation) and that she's hiding serious things about her health etc. Thanks to being informed by these threads, I countered every point. I was totally thinking this would be our first and last date due to our difference in perspectives until I got up to use the restroom and when I came back he said, "Alright, I've given it some thought, and I think you've convinced me to vote for Hillary!"

    I'd like to think it was my rhetorical skills and not that I was inadvertently engaging in "flirty fishing" but I call it a victory either way.
    posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 4:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [130 favorites]


    You have to wade through all that shit to get to the disclosure. Dick Move Jared. Dick Move.
    posted by mikelieman at 4:44 PM on September 15, 2016


    I'd like to think it was my rhetorical skills and not that I was inadvertently engaging in "flirty fishing" but I call it a victory either way.

    We need to be getting you on more Tinder dates.
    posted by chris24 at 4:45 PM on September 15, 2016 [51 favorites]


    Hmm that's interesting because I remember when there was no way to stop automatic payments for Trump (it may have been changed by now.) As far as I know you can easily stop automatic payments to HRC and that has always been the case.
    The overcharges are occurring so often that the fraud department at one of the nation’s biggest banks receives up to 100 phone calls a day from Clinton’s small donors asking for refunds for unauthorized charges to their bankcards made by Clinton’s campaign. One elderly Clinton donor, who has been a victim of this fraud scheme, has filed a complaint with her state’s attorney general and a representative from the office told her that they had forwarded her case to the Federal Election Commission.

    “We get up to a hundred calls a day from Hillary’s low-income supporters complaining about multiple unauthorized charges,” a source, who asked to remain anonymous for fear of job security, from the Wells Fargo fraud department told the Observer. The source claims that the Clinton campaign has been pulling this stunt since Spring of this year. The Hillary for America campaign will overcharge small donors by repeatedly charging small amounts such as $20 to the bankcards of donors who made a one-time donation. However, the Clinton campaign strategically doesn’t overcharge these donors $100 or more because the bank would then be obligated to investigate the fraud.

    “We don’t investigate fraudulent charges unless they are over $100,” the fraud specialist explained. “The Clinton campaign knows this, that’s why we don’t see any charges over the $100 amount, they’ll stop the charges just below $100. We’ll see her campaign overcharge donors by $20, $40 or $60 but never more than $100.” The source, who has worked for Wells Fargo for over 10 years, said that the total amount they refund customers on a daily basis who have been overcharged by Clinton’s campaign “varies” but the bank usually issues refunds that total between $700 and $1200 per day.

    The fraud specialist said that Clinton donors who call in will attempt to resolve the issue with the campaign first but they never get anywhere. “They will call the Clinton campaign to get their refund and the issue never gets resolved. So they call us and we just issue the refund. The Clinton campaign knows these charges are small potatoes and that we’ll just refund the money back.”


    This sounds super fishy to me and if you read the rest of the article there are a lot of allegations against the Clintons for "theft." I know Trump's son-in-law owns the paper. I would wait to see what the rest of the MSM makes of this story.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:46 PM on September 15, 2016


    I accidentally over-donated to the campaign, but it was two additional $5 donations so I didn't bother to fix it. Basically, the "Thank you" page was open on my phone from when I donated earlier and then my phone resubmitted the page when I re-opened Safari, and it resubmitted the donation. Was mildly peeved, but it was $5 so wasn't worth doing anything about. Once I accidentally clicked the one-click-to-donate button in the email when I was attempting to scroll. But, like, I'm the one who chose to store my CC details w/ ActBlue, so I can't really complain about that one.
    posted by melissasaurus at 4:46 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    The millennials I know are skeptical because their future is uncertain, and their life experiences have not lead to the broader impression there is a brighter economic future that lies ahead for many of them. They are working lower-quality jobs, working more hours, paying more and more of smaller paychecks for basics like food, healthcare and education, and perhaps for the first time, a candidate spoke to these issues — and to them — directly. The one person who stood up for them got railroaded, and they are probably a little upset and a little jaded about the process because of that. Hillary's people can blame them and Sanders for not toeing the line, but the bottom line is that either their votes are valuable, or not, and her campaign needs to decide on that quickly, given the dropping polls and a general election coming up in a month and a half.
    posted by a lungful of dragon at 4:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    There's a reason that very young millennials are strongly anti-Clinton even though the same age group supported Obama energetically during his elections. A small part is probably just that Clinton is 68 years old (though Sanders was older). Part of it is probably that she simply isn't the inspirational speaker that Obama was. But most of it can be laid at the feet of Bernie Sanders. He convinced young voters that Hillary Clinton was a shifty, corrupt, lying shill who cared nothing for real progressive values—despite a literal lifetime of fighting for them. Sadly, that stuck.

    Eh, for years they've told you why - severe disillusionment with the mainstream left after the great idealistic push for Obama + inability to achieve economic stability and all the traditional markers of adult success like a career, homeownership, family, leading to anger at Wall St. bailouts of the establishment and lack of accountability for most of the players and architects of the banking crisis. This writer is acting like Bernie Sanders came out of nowhere and corrupted this age group, rather than this age group propelling him into the spotlight because they got radicalized over the past several years.

    Did political writers plum forget that Occupy Wall Street was a thing in the recent past?
    posted by naju at 4:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [22 favorites]


    Calls to Nix Food Regulations Disappear From Trump's Economic Platform:
    A "fact sheet" on Donald Trump's economic platform that called for the deregulation of the food industry is now absent from the campaign's website. A version of the fact sheet the campaign sent out Thursday morning said that under a President Trump, the "The FDA Food Police" would be eliminated, while a revised version sent out Thursday afternoon did not include that section.
    posted by kirkaracha at 4:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    a campaign that if nothing else greatly helped Clinton's general election chances by pushing her farther to the left than she would have gone otherwise
    Honestly asking--do you think that enhanced lefty progressivism actually helps Democrats win elections? I'm pretty lefty and progressive but I don't feel like a significant majority of the country is with me on that. I would have been perfectly happy to vote for a Sanders or a Warren in November, but I would have done so while sighing that the Democrats could teach a master class on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
    posted by xyzzy at 4:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    and her campaign needs to decide on that quickly, given the dropping polls and a general election coming up in a month and a half.

    What would that look like when compared to what she's been doing?
    posted by Justinian at 4:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    "Some strange set of circumstances cause some duplicate charges, technical glitch blamed" is conceivable. "Campaign deliberately overcharges poor people [who are more likely to carefully check their statements, making it even stupider] just below a magic threshold where banks care about fraud" is not. The article alleges the latter, based on a single dubious anonymous source and one individual claiming the former.
    posted by zachlipton at 4:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Calls to Nix Food Regulations Disappear From Trump's Economic Platform:

    I guess that went over like a lead balloon. Funny how people like to know what's in their food, right Donald?
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Some fluff from Buzzfeed: The 49 Best Tweets From Donald Trump Jr.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:54 PM on September 15, 2016


    Trump defiant as poll numbers rise, won’t say Obama was born in United States
    In the interview, conducted late Wednesday aboard his private plane as it idled on the tarmac here, Trump suggested he is not eager to change his pitch or his positions even as he works to reach out to minority voters, many of whom are deeply offended by his long-refuted suggestion that Obama is not a U.S. citizen. Trump refused to say whether he believes Obama was born in Hawaii.

    “I’ll answer that question at the right time,” Trump said. “I just don’t want to answer it yet.”
    For fuck's sake. What a blatantly mealy mouthed answer.
    posted by Roommate at 4:56 PM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Speaking of things Donald Trump Jr. says, Barbara Res, former Trump exec of 18 years, said that Trump Sr. "joked about gas chambers and ovens" years ago (Hope Hicks denies, naturally).
    posted by zachlipton at 4:58 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Calls to Nix Food Regulations Disappear From Trump's Economic Platform

    MEREDITH!!
    Are we still doing this?
    posted by Atom Eyes at 4:58 PM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    Okay, so we’re doin’ this
    posted by zachlipton at 5:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    Obama is speaking now at the Congressional Hispanic caucus, Joy Reid is covering for Chris Hayes and Hillary Clinton will speak within the hour. What a great little piece of nonwhite non- straightcismale America speaking with our power.
    posted by zutalors! at 5:03 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    I was laughing at his, "I give all three cholesterols."
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:04 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Proto-Trump: How Arizona Laid the Foundation for Donald Trump's America

    I itch to edit the florid, self-consciously "clever" prose, but if you can hack through the language undergrowth, the article makes some interesting points about the patterns that create a fertile terrain for growing such a candidate. One the author names is a lack of community ties, which is changing in Phoenix (and, I presume, elsewhere), but has definitely played a role until the sprawl tides began to reverse very recently.

    I want to say, "Hey, don't blame us!" but there's no denying that Trump strikes a bit of a cultural nerve here.
    Which is why I'm working hard to help ensure his defeat. It will be especially sweet given the circumstances.
    posted by Superplin at 5:05 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Speaking of things Donald Trump Jr. says, Barbara Res, former Trump exec of 18 years, said that Trump Sr. "joked about gas chambers and ovens" years ago (Hope Hicks denies, naturally).

    Hope Hicks is 27. Trump Sr. died in 1999, when she was 10. How the fuck would she know, either way?
    posted by percor at 5:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Obama is speaking now at the Congressional Hispanic caucus, Joy Reid is covering for Chris Hayes and Hillary Clinton will speak within the hour.

    Thanks! I gasped and knocked over my drink turning it on.
    posted by cashman at 5:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    tbh I love Chris Hayes though. That just would've ruined my minority/woman fist bump. I'm sure he understands.
    posted by zutalors! at 5:12 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Hope Hicks is 27. Trump Sr. died in 1999, when she was 10. How the fuck would she know, either way?

    Sorry that was a touch unclear of me. As I understood the article, it's Trump-the-candidate who allegedly joked about gas chambers and ovens years ago, and Hicks is denying that ever happened on behalf of the campaign.
    posted by zachlipton at 5:12 PM on September 15, 2016


    Hope Hicks is 27. Trump Sr. died in 1999

    Presumably she's talking about the current Sr.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:12 PM on September 15, 2016


    guys i think i must be drunk because npr's all things considering is actually doing some reporting about lies and the lying liars that tell them today
    posted by entropicamericana at 5:12 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]




    Hope Hicks is 27. Trump Sr. died in 1999, when she was 10. How the fuck would she know, either way?
    Don't you think by Sr. they're referring to DJT? Trump's dad is Fred Christ Trump.

    In any event, Barbara Res' twitter is kinda hilarious. "He takes heart meds? I didn't think he had one."
    posted by xyzzy at 5:14 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Today is the first day that I have felt that we are fated to have President Trump. As if The Doctor is saying 2016 US elects Donald Trump is a fixed point in time.
    posted by humanfont at 5:15 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    It's Ten/Rose, don't judge me.

    No shit when I read what you said earlier I went "oh, reminds me of when I was in Doctor Who fandom and was a Ten/Rose shipper." So...yeah.
    posted by threeturtles at 5:17 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    There's no such thing as fate and Doctor Who is not a real person. Go phone bank or something.
    posted by prize bull octorok at 5:21 PM on September 15, 2016 [27 favorites]


    And as Sarah Connor tells us, "There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."
    posted by Justinian at 5:24 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    One thing I will say is that as the polls tighten, the megalomania (on display in this WaPo interview) isn't even subtle any more, and we'll see how far that hubris takes him.

    Team Clinton will have noted how he's dealt with being taken down a peg to his face. It will need a strategy for the debate, and for the post-debate when he lies and lies and lies about what happened.
    posted by holgate at 5:27 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    And as the Oracle tells us, have a cookie, and "you'll remember that you don't believe in all of this fate crap."
    posted by cashman at 5:27 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    maybe we should keep calm and trust Sam Wang instead of Nate Silver this time
    posted by zutalors! at 5:30 PM on September 15, 2016 [14 favorites]


    guys i think i must be drunk because npr's all things considering is actually doing some reporting about lies and the lying liars that tell them today

    Kai Ryssdal has shamed them, I think. He's been calling out Trump BS on Marketplace. From today:
    One more item about Donald Trump and his speech at the Economic Club of New York. Mr. Trump got to talking about manufacturing and yesterday's news that Ford's gonna move its small car division to Mexico.

    Here's what he said: "To think that Ford is moving its small car division is a disgrace, its disgraceful. It's disgraceful that our politicians allow them to get away with it."

    Ford said yesterday in announcing the news that it's not closing the plant near Detroit where those cars are made, so no jobs are going to be lost. And that they're actually going to make higher-margin trucks there now.

    Not sure what the politician thing was about.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:31 PM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    You guys! I just signed up for a young professionals event in San Francisco featuring America's Dad

    I'm pretty excited
    posted by sunset in snow country at 5:32 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    maybe we should keep calm and trust Sam Wang instead of Nate Silver this time

    Sure, here is the graph of the current meta-margin. If you feel okay after looking at that trendline lemme have whatever you're drinking, I could use it.
    posted by Justinian at 5:33 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Plouffe also had some very calming words to say. Pfeiffer and Favreau tried really hard to keep up that momentum too.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 5:34 PM on September 15, 2016




    Just got a call looking to get a donation for Democratic Senators but I just made a donation to Clinton today and couldn't afford another. I thanked the caller for volunteering for the party, though.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 5:35 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    maybe we should keep calm and trust Sam Wang instead of Nate Silver this time

    You mean the Nate Silver who was paid to speak to a private meeting of Republican donors (as part of a strategy confab) right before Trump's numbers started improving?
    posted by oneswellfoop at 5:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Oh sorry should have been discussing something important like Trump's weight.
    posted by threeturtles at 5:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]




    Did somebody say "Jellyfish break"?
    posted by kirkaracha at 5:45 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    You mean the Nate Silver who was paid to speak to a private meeting of Republican donors (as part of a strategy confab) right before Trump's numbers started improving?

    Going after Silver on this is a lot like going after Clinton on her Goldman Sachs speeches. Except not even since Silver doesn't set policy. Trump's numbers are improving because Clinton passed out on national television and was dragged by her arms into a waiting car.
    posted by Justinian at 5:47 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    You mean the Nate Silver who was paid to speak to a private meeting of Republican donors (as part of a strategy confab) right before Trump's numbers started improving?

    He literally just walked them through how to parse his website. Hell, they have employees that could have done it, but they don't want that internal embarrassment so they pay Nate.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:49 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Clinton passed out on national television and was dragged by her arms into a waiting car.

    WTF. This did not happen.

    posted by zutalors! at 5:50 PM on September 15, 2016 [26 favorites]


    Angrycat: I had a student who was openly racist. I wrote an assignment that forced all the students to engage with people in a so-called ghetto. For the students who were not white, this was an easy assignment where they could draw upon their personal experience, even if they were middle class. For the open-minded white students, the assignment was interesting and challenged their internalized racism in a way they could deal with. For the very few racist students, including the one mentioned above, it was eye-opening.
    I often complain that I spend too much of my time writing the curriculum. When one does something like this, one obviously needs to write the assignment, the curriculum, the daily tasks in a way that doesn't alert right wing pols. I'm not saying it is easy, but it is definitely necessary.


    I had a student who, in a review of The Fire Next Time, decided to refute racism on the basis of a bible quote that had something to do with the qualities of darkness (and thus blackness, I guess) not leading to salvation.
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:50 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Joy Reid's Taco Trucks just got a mention in Clinton's speech!
    posted by zutalors! at 5:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Hillary is now speaking at the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Gala.

    Hillary: (among other comments) "I personally think a Taco Truck on every corner sounds delicious"
    posted by cashman at 5:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [21 favorites]


    "It used to be that cars were made in Flint and you couldn't drink the water in Mexico"

    WHAT A FUCKFACE
    posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:54 PM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Hillary: I believe that the American dream is alive, and it's big enough for everyone to share in.
    posted by cashman at 5:54 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    guys i think i must be drunk because npr's all things considering is actually doing some reporting about lies and the lying liars that tell them today

    Probably just crosstalk between timelines. Have you been drinking a lot of Nuka-Cola Quantum lately?
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:55 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Hillary: "You're not strangers, you're not intruders, you're our neighbors, our colleagues, our friends, our families. You make our nation stronger, smarter, more creative. I want you to know that I see you, and I am with you."
    posted by cashman at 5:56 PM on September 15, 2016 [33 favorites]


    She looks great. She probably should have skipped that stupid CiC forum.
    posted by zutalors! at 5:57 PM on September 15, 2016


    She is KILLING this speech.

    I see you.
    posted by Sophie1 at 5:58 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    From the Washington Post article linked earlier.
    On Wednesday, Trump’s wife, Melania, released a letter from her attorney, who attested with “100% certainty” that she had immigrated legally from Slovenia, following several news stories scrutinizing how she entered and worked in the United States before gaining citizenship.

    With the letter, Trump said, there is no longer a need for his wife to hold a news conference on the topic, as the campaign once promised. He also reiterated his refusal to release his tax returns, as Clinton and all other presidential candidates have done for decades, citing an Internal Revenue Service audit that he says is ongoing.
    So let's see. We've had two health letters from Dr. Bornstein giving us the state of Trump's health and now a letter from Melania's lawyer stating she was a legal immigrant. All he needs is a letter from his bookkeeper saying that Donald Trump pays all his taxes on time and we are good to go.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:00 PM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    Of course, everyone in Detroit already knows what's happening at Ford -- the Focus is going to be made in Mexico because pretty much all sub-$20k cars in the USA are made in Mexico, which is how they stay sub-$20k -- but truth, etc.

    The hyper-correct answer is 'fuck you, when did you last pay a factory worker a union wage?'
    posted by holgate at 6:02 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    CNN chyron on HRC's speech: Clinton: Taco Truck on every corner "Delicious"
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:04 PM on September 15, 2016 [25 favorites]


    "This is who he is. Now we need to decide who we are."
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:08 PM on September 15, 2016 [19 favorites]


    his plan would create 25 million in new jobs, and that the massive tax cut would be offset by gross domestic product growth of at least 3.5%

    Ah, then, we're going to take Kansas Gov. Brownback's completely disastrous budget plan nationwide, then? The one where the ideas was to massively cut taxes because that will stimulate the economy so much that we will actually collect MORE taxes due to the amazing economic growth.

    Because that is a completely excellent plan--if you are a complete moron.

    In case you forgot, here is how the Kansas Plan fared in reality. It was not pretty AT ALL: 1, 2, 3, 4, Google.

    It's going to be just a-m-a-z-i-n-g to see that replicated on a nationwide basis . . .

    Honestly, this idea has been such a complete disaster in Kansas, and on every other occasion when it has actually been tried, that I really can't believe it is being serious proposed again. Is ANYONE paying attention?

    Of course with Trump, supposing that anything he proposes is being proposed seriously probably a stretch.
    posted by flug at 6:08 PM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    Again I say, TIME simply must name the Chyron People as Persons of the Year. It just has to.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:11 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    This is a great speech by Hillary. Solid, timely, poignant, fierce.
    posted by cashman at 6:11 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I'm glad we had to switch around Taco Thursday and postpone it until tomorrow because all this talk of taco trucks is making me hungry-- and I just ate dinner (v. nice spicy Thai chili beef stir fry.)



    This is Donald Trump's plan for replacing Obamacare.
    We have to come up, and we can come up with many different plans. In fact, plans you don't even know about will be devised because we're going to come up with plans-health care plans- that will be so good.
    These secret plans that haven't been figured out will be ten times better than stinky old ObamaCare. They will be known as TrumpCare just as soon as somebody figures out what a good health care plan looks like.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:11 PM on September 15, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Ah, then, we're going to take Kansas Gov. Brownback's completely disastrous budget plan nationwide, then? The one where the ideas was to massively cut taxes because that will stimulate the economy so much that we will actually collect MORE taxes due to the amazing economic growth.

    With a nice side order of "cut wasteful spending." That will surely make everything balance out. America will be swimming in greenbacks.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:13 PM on September 15, 2016


    Secret Life of Gravy: "All he needs is a letter from his bookkeeper saying that Donald Trump pays all his taxes on time and we are good to go."

    The problem isn't tax fraud (well the main problem); the problem is it will shine a light on his income and net worth. Which is probably (considering he qualifies for that NYC housing tax credit) a _lot_ less than he claims.
    posted by Mitheral at 6:15 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Trump is now calling his campaign " a movement, believe me, it's a movement..."

    Yeah Don, I had a movement this morning just after my second cup of coffee, and it smelled better than yours.
    posted by OHenryPacey at 6:18 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Oh I know, Mitheral. I was just joking. I'm sure he has lawyers-- fleets of them-- and not a lowly bookkeeper. In addition I'm sure that any real tax returns would show that he hasn't donated a penny in the last 10 years despite his claim that he has donated tens of millions.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:18 PM on September 15, 2016


    Donald J. Trump, Jr.: The new aristocrats are in DC. They steal, lie, and take from hardworking Americans. Clinton part of the ruling class. Trump for the people

    What do you call people who hunt elephants?
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:21 PM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    The long-term benefit of making pie-in-the-sly promises based on phantom plans is that after everything falls part, you can always claim "This wasn't the Big Plan I promised! Congress/the courts/the bureaucracy/somebody else sabotaged my plans!" and nobody can prove otherwise. All consistent with the way he runs his businesses.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 6:21 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Assholes.
    posted by zachlipton at 6:22 PM on September 15, 2016 [21 favorites]


    Everything Donald Trump Tweeted On The Day Of His Colonoscopy

    Wondering when he had time for the procedure that day, unless he has an after-hours deal at the clinic.
    posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:25 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    "The new aristocrats are in DC. They steal, lie, and take from hardworking Americans. And that's who we want to become!!! Unfair that the Clintons have more money and less debt than us without stealing from their Foundation!!!"
    posted by oneswellfoop at 6:25 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Is ANYONE paying attention?

    I have been thinking about this question and I think, by and large, the answer is "no." I'm not sure if anyone ever really did in the past, but I think the explosion in information sources has served to make people less informed, not more informed.

    Like even here in Hawaii in the last ten years, the rise of the internet and collapse of the local newspapers has largely led to young people (defined as anyone below me - <48) not being as informed about what's happening in local politics. I suspect people would be challenged to name their state house and senate reps or name one bill that was voted on this year that effected them.

    Its a real problem and is maybe part of why some people have issues with Clinton (because most of their news comes from dank memes and not from research) or why people don't get engaged with local issues (because they literally don't know what the local issues are). I have nary a clue as to how to fix it other than one on one conversations.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 6:26 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    On Wednesday, Trump’s wife, Melania, released a letter from her attorney, who attested with “100% certainty” that she had immigrated legally from Slovenia, following several news stories scrutinizing how she entered and worked in the United States before gaining citizenship.

    "To Whom My Concern:

    "If elected, Ms. Trump, I can state unequivocally, will be the legal-est individual ever elected as First Lady."

    [Fake, sorta]
    posted by flug at 6:29 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Trump is now calling his campaign " a movement, believe me, it's a movement..."

    And can you imagine fifty people a day? I said FIFTY people a day . . . Walkin' in, screamin' "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!" in the face a Mexican or Muslim or... whatever... and walkin' out? Friends, they may think it's a MOVEMENT, and that's what it is: THE DONNIE'S RESTAURANT ANTI-AMERICA-NOT-BEING-GREAT MOVEMENT!
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:31 PM on September 15, 2016 [6 favorites]


    These secret plans that haven't been figured out will be ten times better than stinky old ObamaCare. They will be known as TrumpCare just as soon as somebody figures out what a good health care plan looks like.

    I can only assume it will mean a personalized note from Dr. Bornstein* to all American citizens, twice a year, for only half what they're paying now.

    (No treatment - it'll just explain that your health is the best, the very best, believe me you're supposed to be feeling that pain, it means it's getting better.)

    * Disclaimer: possibly supplemented by helpful Markov bots with access to medical terminology databases.
    posted by mordax at 6:31 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I suspect people would be challenged to name their state house and senate reps or name one bill that was voted on this year that effected them.

    I don't have data handy but I assure you this is not at all a new because-internet thing.
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:34 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    I just can't fathom how "flip-flopping" and "invented the internet" and an unpresidential yell at a rally killed campaigns, but things like "bomb the shit out of them" and "I have a secret plan to fight ISIS/fix health care" are just sliding by.

    What the hell is this year.
    posted by kythuen at 6:38 PM on September 15, 2016 [57 favorites]


    My pocket constitution arrived today, and I think I'm going to start sleeping with it under my pillow.
    posted by Superplin at 6:38 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    I don't have data handy but I assure you this is not at all a new because-internet thing.

    That part's not, but this part:
    I have been thinking about this question and I think, by and large, the answer is "no." I'm not sure if anyone ever really did in the past, but I think the explosion in information sources has served to make people less informed, not more informed.

    Definitely tracks in conversations I've been having. And as ever, I don't really talk to Republicans outside of family events much - I'm only talking about fellow Democrats, or the odd independent/non-voter.
    posted by mordax at 6:39 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Question: If Trump released a tax return stating he was worth twenty billion United States Dollars and donated so much to charity that by rights his name should be on 1/4 of charity-funded operations in the country if he wasn't so modest, but it was a fake, could the IRS say anything?

    Question: What if Donald Trump has no tax returns because alone among sovereign citizens he has actually found the right legal incantation, destroyed the legal fiction strawman corporation DONALD J TRUMP and become truly free?
    posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:40 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    > Donald J. Trump, Jr.: The new aristocrats are in DC. They steal, lie, and take from hardworking Americans.

    Yep:
    Trump won the bid [to lease the Old Post Office from the National Park Service and turn it into the Trump International Hotel in DC, which opened this week] largely because of two grand promises, three of the sources said.

    Trump promised to employ the architect who had, over decades, championed the building’s careful, historic restoration. And he promised the involvement of a multibillion-dollar real estate investment firm with a rock-solid financial reputation.

    After Trump’s team got the nod from the GSA, however, it reversed itself on both these promises. It announced that the architect would no longer be involved. And it informed the government that it would no longer be working with the real estate investment firm. To finance the construction, Trump borrowed $170 million from a bank, putting the federal lease on the property up as collateral.

    Meanwhile, Trump’s firm has applied for a $32 million federal subsidy, in the form of a tax credit, which could help cover its investment in the taxpayer-owned building.

    [...] Insiders said that Trump’s company has pushed the government to accept design and decorative changes that run counter to the principles of historic preservation, which are the basis on which he applied for a tax subsidy.
    There's a lot more in that article, but it all basically amounts to exactly what Trump Jr said: coming to DC to steal, lie, and take from hardworking Americans.
    posted by Westringia F. at 6:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [52 favorites]


    She is KILLING this speech.

    "You can't win, Donnie. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
    posted by mikelieman at 6:46 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    >I suspect people would be challenged to name their state house and senate reps or name one bill that was voted on this year that effected them.

    I don't have data handy but I assure you this is not at all a new because-internet thing.


    It's not new, but it's more challenging these days because of constant redistricting.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:46 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    She probably should have skipped that stupid CiC forum.

    You misspelled "ambush hit job".

    Democrats would be smart to never speak to Paul Rieckhoff again, much less commit to the CiC becoming a recurring obligation. That was a fucking set up.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 6:48 PM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    She probably should have skipped that stupid CiC forum.

    There's only one candidate who doesn't have the stones to appear at every opportunity.

    And it isn't Hillary Clinton.
    posted by mikelieman at 6:49 PM on September 15, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Hillary Clinton campaign systematically overcharging poorest donors.

    You'd think if they wanted to emphasize poorest they wouldn't show a statement of someone taking a trip from Minnesota to Florida and spending $264 for one night in a hotel and $110 for dinner at a restaurant (and on OnStar subscription?).
    posted by achrise at 6:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    an unpresidential yell at a rally

    The Dean Scream: An Oral History
    posted by kirkaracha at 6:56 PM on September 15, 2016


    Meanwhile, Trump’s firm has applied for a $32 million federal subsidy, in the form of a tax credit, which could help cover its investment in the taxpayer-owned building.

    [...] Insiders said that Trump’s company has pushed the government to accept design and decorative changes that run counter to the principles of historic preservation, which are the basis on which he applied for a tax subsidy.


    Federal historic preservation tax credits. If they didn't do the work as proposed in the certification application/according to the rehab standards, they won't get their credits. The National Park Service tax credit reviewers give zero fucks for big-shot developers who think they can ignore the Secretary's standards and still get their credits. (I'd check their application status but as per usual the tracking site is down).
    posted by Preserver at 7:05 PM on September 15, 2016 [7 favorites]


    posted by Preserver at 7:05 PM on September 15 [+] [!]

    Not sure if eponysterical, but certainly fitting.
    posted by zachlipton at 7:11 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Hillary's Self-Inflicted Headwinds:
    My advice to making sense of all the strum and churn over the next 50+ days: keep an eye on Pennsylvania and New Hampshire. If Clinton holds onto those two states (as well as all the other states Obama carried in 2012 like Wisconsin and Michigan), she can lose Iowa, Nevada, Ohio, Florida and ME-02 and still win by a narrow 272-266.
    posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 PM on September 15, 2016


    posted by Preserver at 7:05 PM on September 15 [+] [!]

    Not sure if eponysterical, but certainly fitting.


    Is it eponysterical if it is intentional?
    posted by Preserver at 7:16 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    And can you imagine fifty people a day? I said FIFTY people a day . . . Walkin' in, screamin' "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!" in the face a Mexican or Muslim or... whatever... and walkin' out? Friends, they may think it's a MOVEMENT, and that's what it is: THE DONNIE'S RESTAURANT ANTI-AMERICA-NOT-BEING-GREAT MOVEMENT!

    Those fools. Trump isn't a movement. Trump is an AWOOVEMENT!
    posted by Talez at 7:18 PM on September 15, 2016


    I'm not completely sold on the idea of 'the press want a close contest', but if it's true then it's reasonable to expect that as the polling gets tighter they will switch from hammering Clinton to hammering Trump, and vice-versa. I guess we'll see?
    posted by um at 7:20 PM on September 15, 2016


    On the other hand, the press might just want a Trump presidency because they know it would be awful for the country, and Bad News is Good for the News Biz (as well as so much easier to write, they can lay off good journalists and hire cheap ones). Win!
    posted by oneswellfoop at 7:29 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Hmm. I could believe that of RT, maybe, but are there any American newspapers or media organizations that have endorsed trump? Has the Observer done so?
    posted by um at 7:33 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    What is the deal with politicians and their PR people lying about their health though?

    I recall an incident where Reagan's spokespeople had a press conference all about how Reagan was in the hospital for something **TOTALLY NOT ABOUT CANCER** and that they examined his nose and there was **TOTALLY NOT CANCER** there. Then, literally two days later, sent out an announcement that the cancerous growth on his nose had been successfully removed.

    Clinton's people didn't lie like that, but they did a really lousy PR job. Why didn't she just say "sorry folks I've been a bit sick, I'm on antibiotics" and go on? Why the secrecy?

    I vaguely recall a couple of similar blatant health lies from Junior as well (leaving aside his "choking on a pretzel" excuse for how he wound up with a black eye).

    Are they afraid that by admitting to illness the voters will think they're weak? Is it just a desire for a little fucking privacy? Is it just misplaced reflexive defensive behavior from PR flacks?

    It just seems weird, mostly harmful from a PR standpoint, and it seems to be something common to a lot of presidents and presidential candidates. So what's the deal?
    posted by sotonohito at 7:40 PM on September 15, 2016


    To which a girl responded "But we're NOT""

    Supporting a racist candidate who wants to bring racist policies to our institutions is the very definition of racist.
    posted by VTX at 7:41 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    You can ENDORSE a candidate out of principle, but outside of the little half-page of Official Editorial, you can do a hell of a lot that may be better for business. There was a long period of time, before Murdoch, when the Wall Street Journal was very pro-business on its Editorial Page, but a lot more even-handed in its News pages.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 7:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Ford said yesterday in announcing the news that it's not closing the plant near Detroit where those cars are made, so no jobs are going to be lost. And that they're actually going to make higher-margin trucks there now.

    Not sure what the politician thing was about.


    Trump has said before that he would stop companies from leaving. I think he said at one point he would make it illegal. Would this even be possible? I'm sure companies would be all up in arms of course I'm just wondering if there is even a technical way to put such a thing in place.
    posted by Jalliah at 7:43 PM on September 15, 2016



    Clinton's people didn't lie like that, but they did a really lousy PR job. Why didn't she just say "sorry folks I've been a bit sick, I'm on antibiotics" and go on? Why the secrecy?


    It was literally right when the right was going on and on about her health and that she had Parkinson's and needed to resign.

    There was no way for her to win here. She had to go to that 9/11 memorial. If she had announced she had pneumonia before it it would have been seen as a distraction and making it all about her. If she had skipped it she would not be a Patriot. Etc, etc, etc.
    posted by zutalors! at 7:44 PM on September 15, 2016 [30 favorites]


    That's what the wall's for.
    posted by indubitable at 7:45 PM on September 15, 2016


    And if we're not Americans? :'(

    Start Calling
    posted by kirkaracha at 7:46 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I just can't fathom how "flip-flopping" and "invented the internet" and an unpresidential yell at a rally killed campaigns, but things like "bomb the shit out of them" and "I have a secret plan to fight ISIS/fix health care" are just sliding by.

    What the hell is this year.


    I am pretty sure that the answer is pretty simple: spin and punditry. If a plurality of pundits says, "Welp, that's going to end his campaign" and the news then reports "Experts say this is the end of his campaign" and the opposing campaign starts a "DELETE UR CAMPAIGN" onslaught of spin (note that it has to happen in that order) then people who are polled start to remember that they've heard this guy did something that's going to end his campaign and is probably a big old loser and the poll numbers tank and the campaign itself gets even more wrongfooted trying to react and next thing you know, it's all over. With Trump, everyone assumed from the go that he was going to be an outrageous candidate saying and doing shit that would shock and appall half the electorate, so pundits never at any point started the "Well, that's unfortunate, I guess his campaign is over" cascade. They just went "Ha ha ha woooow okay, well that happened." Without someone starting the "I guess his campaign is over" meme and stating it like it's just an incontrovertible fact, you never get to the next steps. Although Trump has the extra firewall of being completely unable to admit a mistake ever, so the final step of the campaign itself scrambling around like a bunch of idiots trying to half-apologize half-respin the gaffe would never happen.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 7:46 PM on September 15, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Trump has a few newspaper endorsements, but if Wiki is up to date at all its not many (and one of them is the Observer of course). Clinton has... substantially more.
    posted by thefoxgod at 7:48 PM on September 15, 2016


    Those endorsements are for the primaries.
    posted by kirkaracha at 7:49 PM on September 15, 2016


    Well I guess that was just primaries, but I can't find any additional ones on Trump's general election list either.

    Clinton's is still much larger.

    And presumably no one who endorsed Clinton before is like un-endorsing her now.
    posted by thefoxgod at 7:50 PM on September 15, 2016


    By the general election lists, Clinton has 25 and Trump has 4. I guess some of the big papers have yet to officially endorse for the general.
    posted by thefoxgod at 7:51 PM on September 15, 2016


    Whatever endorsement figures you find, remember that Trump also has a bunch of secret endorsements. You wouldn't believe all of the endorsements he has.
    posted by tonycpsu at 7:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [20 favorites]


    Those were endorsements from the primaries (and many papers will endorse separately for Democrats and Republicans at that stage). Most newspaper endorsements won't come in until after the debates. The bunch who have already made general election endorsements have largely been doing the "Trump has so disqualified himself from office that it's clear it can't possibly be him" thing (pro-Hillary list here, some have also endorsed Johnson).
    posted by zachlipton at 7:53 PM on September 15, 2016


    I added the general list in my followup comment, which specifically calls them out as general election endorsements. Of course, wikipedia is not always 100% accurate :)
    posted by thefoxgod at 7:55 PM on September 15, 2016


    The New York Times is saving their Clinton endorsement for right after the first debate, where they'll initially declare her the winner and put the Clinton endorsement in the headline online edition; then replace the body of the article with a pro-Trump piece by Patrick Healy after an hour and in the print edition.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 7:55 PM on September 15, 2016 [33 favorites]


    You wouldn't believe all of the endorsements he has.

    and they are the best endorsements. nobody knows endorsements like trump and these are good like you have never seen before. yuuuge endorsements.
    posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:59 PM on September 15, 2016


    I think he said at one point he would make it illegal. Would this even be possible?

    He's talked about imposing punitive tariffs (it's bullshit but let's go with it). So it's either a Ford Focus made in the USA that costs $25k instead of $20k, to reflect union wages, or one made in Mexico that costs... $25k after tariffs. Even if many of the parts were made in the US.

    (Another point being that Ford's smaller cars sell better in... less affluent countries. But also that some Americans want $15k Versas and $20k Sentras and Fiestas and Fits, and they're made in Mexico.)

    Americans tend to want cheap stuff, high wages, and "made in the USA" (but not by immigrants). Pick two.
    posted by holgate at 8:00 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]




    And tonight's bullshit is birtherism. Telling you: he's seen the Fox poll and he's high on his own hubris and whatever Dr Spaceman slips him from the samples drawer.
    posted by holgate at 8:08 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    So yeah, he still won't admit that Obama is legit: Ludicrous campaign statement.
    posted by strange chain at 8:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Americans tend to want cheap stuff, high wages, and "made in the USA" (but not by immigrants). Pick two.
    posted by holgate at 10:00 PM on September 15


    I know I am in the minority, but I'll take the last two over cheap stuff. Especially cheap stuff (shit) that is made overseas. Pay the fucking American workers a living wage. At least working people pay their taxes.
    posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 8:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    > Trump International Hotel in DC... $32 million federal subsidy, in the form of a tax credit

    There's more tax shenanigans. The federal government doesn't pay property tax, but owns a lot of property in D.C., so if you rent from the fed, you pay "possessory interest taxes". Trump didn't want to and asked for a waiver, then claimed that the viability of the business didn't depend on the waiver, then claimed that he'd never asked for one. The Wikipedia article is well sourced, though the Washington Business Journal & WaPo articles use anon. sources.

    Oh there's more, from June: "Trump sues the District over tax bill for Old Post Office project". So maybe he didn't want a waiver, but he sure doesn't want to pay that tax.
    posted by morganw at 8:16 PM on September 15, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Apropos of nothing! absolutely nothing at all! can I just interrupt this program to make a general pronouncement?

    (...ahem...)

    Metafilter's Mods Rock!


    Thank you; as you were.
    posted by perspicio at 8:17 PM on September 15, 2016 [37 favorites]


    I've been reading Regency Romances and all I can think is, Jumped-Up Cit is the best term for Donald Trump I've ever heard, and I am calling him that from now until the end of the election. Sally Jersey won't receive him! Beau Brummel gave him the cut direct! His money is too new and way too vulgar. He will never be in the bon ton!

    (But for real he's not in the Social Register and I bet he GNAWS HIS LIVER over it.)
    posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:19 PM on September 15, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Weirdly, this makes me feel more confident. If this is how cocky and cokefiendish he gets when one national poll shows him possibly maybe up, he and his campaign are going to scare the fuck out of people who haven't yet noticed.
    posted by holgate at 8:23 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Americans tend to want cheap stuff, high wages, and "made in the USA" (but not by immigrants). Pick two.

    Gonna call bullshit. I like cheap stuff, high wages and "made in the USA" as in I can sue them if they harm me. I get all three.

    I just got a dog. It's a biiig dog. It needs a big dogbed. $75 at a big-box pet supply store. Made in Indonesia. $70 at a generic big-box store. Made in China.

    At the Job Lot, made in the USA from fabric and materials also made in the USA? $20. Advertising apart from the tag? $0.

    If you buy the made-in-Indonesia dogbed, you are paying for American marketing and American supply-chain experts, and the markup goes to them.

    Are you nuts? Of course I bought the $20 Sourced-and-Manufactured USA dogbed, as it was $20, I can sue the manufacturer if it's made out of asbestos instead of comfy synthetic fleece, and as expected, the dog won't go anywhere near it while it's in a crate. I wasted $20 rather than $75!

    I love how Ford moves its low-margin small-car export production line to Mexico to make room for high-margin trucks, and lots of them, and Trump barfs words all over his loafers. White after Labor Day, too.
    posted by Slap*Happy at 8:25 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Whoa, Trevor Noah is his own angry version!

    "Donnie/Donny". Perfect.
    posted by mikelieman at 8:34 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Art inside the Trump/Pence HQ at Trump Tower in NYC

    9 out of 10 dictators would find that to be too much.
    posted by zachlipton at 8:36 PM on September 15, 2016 [24 favorites]




    Art inside the Trump/Pence HQ at Trump Tower in NYC

    Were they out of black velvet? 'cuz that should have been the medium of choice. Maybe there's an argument for the side of a van.
    posted by nubs at 8:40 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    9 out of 10 dictators would find that to be too much.

    The penthouse decor -- google it yourself -- looks like it was cobbled together from Saddam salvage, and dear god this is Arrested Development isn't it.
    posted by holgate at 8:43 PM on September 15, 2016 [15 favorites]


    The penthouse decor -- google it yourself -- looks like it was cobbled together from Saddam salvage, and dear god this is Arrested Development isn't it.

    "Half in English, Half in squiqqly" is literally something the Donald would say.
    posted by dis_integration at 8:44 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Art inside the Trump/Pence HQ at Trump Tower in NYC

    I can never look at any pictures that Trump puts out of himself without thinking that he's thinking "Okay, this is my serious, power face. Look at me everybody. This is my I'm a serious and powerful man expression. Look at me being all serious and powerful. I'm so awesome. Look I'm doing really well putting this serious expression on my face. God I'm amazing with my face."
    posted by Jalliah at 8:44 PM on September 15, 2016 [19 favorites]


    From a blog link above:
    My advice to making sense of all the strum and churn

    Strum and churn?

    Anyway, an update from my Trumpublican-heavy burbs outside Detroit: A few more Drumpf signs - tiny little signs - scattered along the roadsides.Also crazy reindeer farmer/exCongresscritter Kerry Bentovolio is running for something. This week his signs multiplied like a rutting Rudolph.

    He'll probably win. (Whatever it is.)

    As for Trump, who knows. But I do know there are an extraordinary number of Americans who would vote for a rotting ham sandwich if it could scream the words, "Thugs, guns, Muslims, Mexicans, Obamacare."
    posted by NorthernLite at 8:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [4 favorites]


    That campaign statement about birtherism also claims that Trump was satisfied Obama was born in the US after the birth certificate was released, but Trump was tweeting out nonsense doubting it well after that. The Washington Post has more examples, including, seven months before announcing his candidacy, retweeting a claim that the birth certificate was forged, and several instances in the last year where he expressed doubts.
    posted by zachlipton at 8:52 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Welcome to the 2016 News Cycle
    posted by tonycpsu at 8:54 PM on September 15, 2016 [15 favorites]


    So apparently, there is a pollster named Bernie Porn.

    I'm pretty sure that's Roger.
    posted by bongo_x at 9:05 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]


    “I’ll answer that question at the right time,” Trump said. “I just don’t want to answer it yet.”

    If Trump wins, he's going to hold a press conf claiming that official gov't docs prove that Obama was born in Kenya. That will be the "right time", when he has the authority of the presidency to promulgate madness.
    posted by dis_integration at 9:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Jimmy Fallon's brand is "Everything is Awesome!" which is great until "everything" turns out to include the rise of xenophobic fascism --@arthur_affect

    But Fallon got to play with Trump's hair, so whatever; who cares about people's lives?
    posted by zachlipton at 9:09 PM on September 15, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Tina Fey and Amy Poehler (the latter of whom is fundraising for Hillary on the eve of the debate) are going to be fucking weaponised.
    posted by holgate at 9:16 PM on September 15, 2016 [17 favorites]


    I just became Trevor Noah fan after not getting him for a long while. That was a thing of beauty.
    posted by spitbull at 9:18 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Americans tend to want cheap stuff, high wages, and "made in the USA" (but not by immigrants). Pick two.

    There's one incident in my past I will always remember when I hear "Made in the USA". During my customer service years, there was an email that someone wrote specifically to say they would not shop at certain major big box store anymore because the store's NASCAR racing team decided to go with Toyota manufactured cars instead of Ford. And even though this person admitted that Toyota did have some manufacturing plants in the US, they still decided that this was a Japanese company and therefore any company that would associate with them was not a company he wanted to patronize. (The letter didn't mention anything about who supplied the goods sold in said big box store, btw)

    I didn't really understand that viewpoint fully at the time, but the letter did bother me enough that I passed it along to a co-worker who would answer in a nicer tone. And sure, there was other work stuff that probably was stressing me out too, but that letter and just the response of some people to finding out I had a foreign sounding name when I was working customer service has stuck with me a long time. And now looking back, it kind of helped me recognize being an immigrant myself and probably also helped me see earlier how much of a force Trump was going to be in this election.
    posted by FJT at 9:30 PM on September 15, 2016 [3 favorites]


    From a comment about the black velvet space trump with eagle rising, I give you an eagle who cares not for trump, space or no damn space.
    posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:56 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Up to four Supreme Court nominees in the next four years.

    I'm going to be ill.
    posted by tzikeh at 10:10 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    It appears that the travelling press w/ Trump are severely fucked off about being left on the tarmac in NH then mocked for not making it to the rally, and then being given the utter bullshit birther statement. Well, if that's what it takes.
    posted by holgate at 10:15 PM on September 15, 2016 [30 favorites]


    I just became Trevor Noah fan after not getting him for a long while. That was a thing of beauty.

    Yeah, he had some big shoes to step into on that show, but he's really hit his stride lately!
    posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:37 PM on September 15, 2016


    > Art inside the Trump/Pence HQ at Trump Tower in NYC

    Ok, so ignoring for a second the comically tall Statue of Liberty staring at Putin setting off the Genesis Device....

    Why is the western US burnt to a crisp? Why is the flag backwards, unmoored and falling? Why is it all tattered?

    And is it just me, or does the red & white striped cloth look more like a circus tent than a flag behind Trump's head?
    posted by Westringia F. at 10:49 PM on September 15, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Yeah, he had some big shoes to step into on that show, but he's really hit his stride lately!

    He was was born in South Africa in 1984. The stuff Trump is proposing is not an abstraction.
    posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:51 PM on September 15, 2016 [27 favorites]


    I know everyone is dying for an update on what Hillary swag I'm sporting: I added the "Asian Americans for Hillary" button to the tiny button on my purse, yay!

    What is the etiquette for political buttons, anyway? I figure since I don't have a car, or a yard, or a window facing the street (SIGH) I should at least get to sport some cool buttons, but I feel a bit weird having them on my purse at work. Even though the purse goes straight into a drawer when I get to my desk. And anyway the most coveted item at last year's office White Elephant party was a Trump pinata and then they hung it up for us to beat the crap out of the day we all got our bonuses, sooo I'm probably okay.
    posted by sunset in snow country at 10:55 PM on September 15, 2016 [5 favorites]




    David Simon: My industry is just a vast, ridiculous diaspora of hungry souls fighting for moments. Even so, fuck Jimmy Fallon.

    Simon's got it.

    "Nice hair. You are a racist. Now, get off my show."

    And then just a blank stare until some PAs shuffled him off.

    That would be a stand.

    He didn't do it, the quisling fuck.
    posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:05 PM on September 15, 2016 [18 favorites]


    Are we still doing HRC swag updates? My buttons and stickers came! (Not the post-convention buttons, normal campaign buttons.) If I figure out what to do with them, I can proudly rep Team Pantsuit and believing in science!
    posted by jetlagaddict at 11:07 PM on September 15, 2016 [2 favorites]




    If someone would do the job -- I don't care if it turns out to be hairdressers or cab drivers -- that would be great.
    posted by mmoncur at 11:45 PM on September 15, 2016 [22 favorites]


    I don't expect comedians to do the jobs of journalists, but I also don't expect them to offer their services as fascist fluffers, either.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 11:53 PM on September 15, 2016 [50 favorites]


    Just when I thought I couldn't hate the unfunny little shitstain any more than I already did.
    posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 12:04 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I agree with Atom Eyes. I would never expect Jimmy Fallon to be the guy to expose the seething hatred of the white supremacist underbelly to Trump's campaign. I do expect he doesn't invite Trump on to his show to give him a handjob and a wink.
    posted by Justinian at 12:08 AM on September 16, 2016 [31 favorites]


    The penthouse decor -- google it yourself -- looks like it was cobbled together from Saddam salvage, and dear god this is Arrested Development isn't it.

    WTF??????? That decor is so gross, I need to wash my eyes with bleach now
    posted by mumimor at 2:16 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    On the bright side, the odds of my mom sending me any more Fallon clips is nil.
    posted by pxe2000 at 3:27 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    If you want another refutation of Clinton starting birtherism besides the Politifact one linked earlier, here's WaPo's.
    posted by chris24 at 3:43 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Um. I like young people, I really do, but:

    If a four-way race brings down Clinton support from 70% to 50% isn't that excuse me for a bit of profanity A REALLY FUCKING BIG DEAL

    I am mulling over a research paper assignment about the third party candidates.

    I told this story before, but back in the spring, I was asking one well-read kid who was contemplating Bernie if he had read some news thing that was getting a lot of coverage. Then this other instructor bustles in and tells me, (in front of a bunch of students) that HRC is the worst candidate because she was complicit in Bill's sexual shenanigans. And she's telling her students this. I'm sure those students are super stoked for HRC right now.

    I was teaching in '08 and '12, and there was a lot of Obama excitement. I have not seen students tuned out this way--although, it should be said, I teach at one campus where it is all PoC and a lot of Islamic students, and another campus where the majority of my students are white. The Trump fear in the low-income community is palpable.
    posted by angrycat at 3:43 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Following 9/11 attacks, Trump worried about renting out his skyscrapers

    “When you see pictures of people on fire jumping off the building when the World Trade Center was hit, you think: ‘This may be hard to rent,'" Trump said in a May 11, 2005, interview with journalist Timothy O'Brien that was included in the book "TrumpNation: The Art of Being The Donald."

    At the time of the interview, Trump was trying to build the tallest skyscraper in Chicago but facing resistance from people who "don't get it." He was also frustrated that Midwesterners wouldn't let him exaggerate the floor count as he had been able to do in New York, O'Brien wrote."
    posted by chris24 at 3:47 AM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    WaPo fact-checking the bullshit statement from the campaign - not Trump - that Obama was born in the US:

    Another Trump staffer acknowledges the truth of Obama’s birthplace — layering it with a number of falsehoods
    posted by chris24 at 3:59 AM on September 16, 2016


    It appears that the travelling press w/ Trump are severely fucked off about being left on the tarmac in NH then mocked for not making it to the rally, and then being given the utter bullshit birther statement. Well, if that's what it takes.

    Sopan Deb's Twitter feed has been almost all just him pointing out the stupidity and inconsistency of the Trump campaign for the last three months solid.

    I do feel for Jared Yates Sexton who basically went into a tweetstorm of "I can't even" last night.
    "Trump and Fallon, just joking around like a couple of buds who find creating a bigoted, fascist country hilarious."

    "Fallon literally referred to Trump's flirtation with dictator Putin as a "bromance." That's where we are. That's where we've come."

    "This normalization, this treatment of Trump like he's an acceptable choice, this media amnesia...this is how he could win."
    It's like watching Hitler come to power in real time.
    posted by Talez at 4:02 AM on September 16, 2016 [76 favorites]


    Food Safety News has pretty much daily reports of food contamination stories which aren't "big" enough to make the major national news outlets. Recently, hepatitis A seems to be the big thing, with an outbreak in Hawaii linked to frozen scallops imported from the Philippines affecting at least 271 people, while one in Virginia associated with the Tropical Smoothie Cafe has affected at least 94 people.
    posted by DevilsAdvocate at 4:38 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Are Donald Trump's media defenders choosing 'Trumpism' over conservatism?

    Umm, yes? Having no morals, principles, or spine probably helps.

    "Call it the Donald Trump Litmus Test. Time and again this campaign cycle, Trump's supporters in the media have changed their opinions on key conservative issues in order to support or defend the Republican presidential nominee. Viewpoints and policy proposals that were once anathema to them are now accepted and even celebrated. And that phenomenon has split the conservative media.

    "It would seem to be easy for these folks to say, 'I support Trump, but idea X or policy Y is foolish,'" Rich Lowry, the editor of the conservative National Review, which has opposed Trump's candidacy, told CNNMoney. "Most of them seem determined to be 100 percent in the tank, though."

    "I don't know what it will take conservatives to realize they are being scammed," said Stuart Stevens, a top strategist for Mitt Romney's 2012 campaign."
    posted by chris24 at 4:47 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Fallon is so inoffensive that it's offensive. He's like human Muzak.

    But, you know, human Muzak who brings a demagogue on his show and joshes around with him.
    posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:50 AM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    mmoncur: He's not confused, he's being a dick.

    I see no reason why those things would be mutually exclusive.
    posted by Too-Ticky at 4:53 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    We've been over the dementia thing again and again.

    I understand the urge to look for some explanation for Trump's erratic and confounding behavior, and I do think he probably has a personality disorder - but this is not what dementia looks like. This is what a capricious petty dictator with delusions of grandeur looks like.

    Let's try not to indulge in baseless scaremongering about a political rival's health, shall we?
    posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:02 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Trump might be confused but he's not confused about where Obama was born.

    Before he was running, he could just say "look, Obama wasn't even born here" and get away with it. He knows it's not true. Or he doesn't care. It's certainly not a nuanced opinion he formed based on detailed research. It's an attack, a "hit", a lie for effect. Now he's being (ever so slightly) fact-checked, and judged on whether he's "Presidential", so he can't say that.

    So now his stooges recite the real, "safe" facts, while he says things like "I can't answer that right now" or "That's a good question, we should ask that question" or "I think we all know the answer to that, am I right?" That lets him use the power of that lie (on his base) without actually lying.

    Then when he's finally flat-out confronted he can say "I never said he wasn't born in the US. Look at what my campaign director said." and then somehow blame the media and HRC for calling him a racist, that just proves they're racists.

    Another example: "Maybe the 2nd Amendment people can do something about that." His base hears it as "Hillary Clinton deserves violence" and they chant it at his rallies, but he can deny he said anything. Why are people always accusing Donald Trump of things he didn't do? Can't anyone see he's the real victim here?

    If you ask Trump about Syria or the Nuclear Triad or detailed plans for healthcare or lowering taxes -- yeah, he's confused. But if you ask him about his personal attacks on Obama, Clinton, Warren, and everyone else -- he knows exactly what he's doing.

    It's the same kind of gaslighting that abusive husbands and parents do all the time. Only now it's the entire country being abused.
    posted by mmoncur at 5:20 AM on September 16, 2016 [49 favorites]


    Sam Wang is worried. It's officially time for pantsshitting.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 5:24 AM on September 16, 2016 [15 favorites]


    Did pollsters really switch to "likely voters" recently?
    posted by drezdn at 5:33 AM on September 16, 2016


    Whelp this election has now officially permeated into the inner reaches of my brain.
    Dream last night: I woke up in a bed (was taking a nap) next to someone I think was a partner. They were sitting up talking to a bunch of people, mostly men who were sitting in chairs around the bed. Somehow I knew they were media people that I sorta knew somehow and I caught on that they were talking about Trump and some event he put on.

    Reporter guy on my side of the bed was talking with excitement, like a happy kid "And then he took us all out on ferry and it was really fun!"

    Me: "OMG god what is wrong with you! You are such and idiot. Don't you see what's happening?'

    People were shocked that I was mean and he looked really hurt and confused. The rest isn't as clear in my memory but it involved me ranting at them about media coverage and how this false balance thing is such BS. I gave a couple of examples. And then they got all upset that I got so angry because it was a totally inappropriate thing to do at a party.

    Then I left the room and kept thinking about Trump using ferry rides to make reporters like him and holy hell he is an awful person and people are dumb.
    posted by Jalliah at 5:36 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Man, Jimmy Fallon can eat shit.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 5:39 AM on September 16, 2016 [19 favorites]


    If Sam Wang is nervous, I'm freaking out.

    Get. out. the. vote.
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    I wish the bobbleheads on TV would stop talking as though it will change anything if Trump were to ostentatiously renounce Birtherism. The significance won't change—for someone whose vision for America is one where the Deportation Force is busting down millions of doors, everyone has to worry about being reported as an unregistered Muslim, and anyone who can't provide a chain of parental birth certificates going back to an ancestor who was naturalized or was around for the ratification of the 14th amendment might not be a citizen either, the reason why it's noteworthy that he's spent a half-decade and more as a Birther is that any noble thing he says about rights or what the people of the US deserve, need not apply to you if he or his government decides you aren't sufficiently American or aren't American at all.
    posted by XMLicious at 5:47 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Fallon is NBC... the network that gave us the Trump-image-building Apprentice show, owned by Comcast, the cable conglomerate that will benefit most if Trump tears down the FCC. Follow the money.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 5:53 AM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]


    Sam Wang is worried. It's officially time for pantsshitting.

    Whatever. Sam Wang's just in the pocket of Big Pants.
    posted by indubitable at 5:55 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    The only consolation I have is that Obama was polling lower than this in 2004. Hillary is still polling above 270 in the EC.

    Of course I'm still terrified, and of course I'm still going to spend part of next week volunteering (and probably every day I don't have work). However, we've bounded back from worse.
    posted by pxe2000 at 5:57 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Trump will be making a statement about birthism today at the opening of his hotel in DC. My guess is that it will be along the same lines as that earlier statement from his campaign: I'm a hero for getting Obama to release his birth certificate and put an end to that ugly rumor spread by Hillary Clinton.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:59 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    One of the things that made me respect Hillary as a politician was how quickly she shut down and disavowed the birtherism her supporters circulated in the 2008 campaign. I hope she reminds the electorate of that.
    posted by pxe2000 at 6:02 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Whatever. Sam Wang's just in the pocket of Big Pants.

    One more reason to GOTV for Hillary. Big Skirt has no pockets.
    posted by Mchelly at 6:04 AM on September 16, 2016 [33 favorites]


    10 days until the first presidential debate. Let's GOTV!
    posted by erisfree at 6:09 AM on September 16, 2016


    This is America toying with shooting itself in the face.
    posted by argybarg at 6:10 AM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    If he Courageously Pivots after years of this birther bullshit....
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:31 AM on September 16, 2016


    Stephen Colbert: A Polite Reminder From The Late Show About Polls: "A tie between the candidates around this time in the campaign has happened in every election of this century."
    posted by palindromic at 6:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [44 favorites]


    If NBC is really in the tank, then... well, Lester Holt is moderating the first debate.

    I assume blithe laziness first, especially from those in the entertainment division. (At least we got Andy Richter's "Coming up next, Pol Pot's horoscope!")

    Did pollsters really switch to "likely voters" recently?

    Since Labor Day, give or take a week.
    posted by holgate at 6:40 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    With Fallon I just assume drunkenness.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 6:46 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    The only consolation I have is that Obama was polling lower than this in 2004.

    I hope you meant 2008, because George W. Bush won in 2004. :)
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:47 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    I meant 2008, sorry!
    posted by pxe2000 at 6:49 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]




    Fallon is so inoffensive that it's offensive. He's like human Muzak.

    But, you know, human Muzak who brings a demagogue on his show and joshes around with him.


    Kinda makes me wonder how all of this sat with The Roots. Sometimes I wish the Tonight Show was literally hosted by Questlove and Black Thought and Jimmy Fallon was their dorky bandleader.
    posted by Strange Interlude at 6:52 AM on September 16, 2016 [47 favorites]


    Kinda makes me wonder how all of this sat with The Roots

    My thoughts exactly. Their white boss Giggles and jokes around with the current flag bearer of American white supremacism and they get to provide the musical accompaniment? I'm even losing some respect for them over this.
    posted by rocket88 at 7:07 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Andy Richter is the best.
    posted by drezdn at 7:09 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    You're losing respect for people who are fulfilling their contractual obligations? Come on. Save that shit for the guy actually fucking up.
    posted by palomar at 7:10 AM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Fallon is so inoffensive that it's offensive. He's like human Muzak.

    But, you know, human Muzak who brings a demagogue on his show and joshes around with him.


    Like you're in an elevator and slowly realize the tinny synth music is the Horst Wessel Song.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:11 AM on September 16, 2016 [21 favorites]


    No respect left to lose for Fallon. Lots of people fucked up in this fiasco, from producers on down. It was a time to make a stand and nobody made one.
    posted by rocket88 at 7:13 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    My mom likes sharing Fallon clips with me (and was very excited when I told her I was seeing The Roots because "Questlove seems like a good guy"). She's also voting for Hillary, and nothing will change her mind on that front. Since a lot of people I know have moms with a soft spot for Jimmy Fallon, I do wonder how many moms Fallon stands to lose in his audience for this little stunt.
    posted by pxe2000 at 7:17 AM on September 16, 2016


    And so you're expecting the guys in the band to take some action that satisfies you, and since they haven't done what you think they should do, you're losing respect for them?

    Wow. I guess I'm losing respect for people right and left, too, then.
    posted by palomar at 7:18 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    My thoughts exactly. Their white boss Giggles and jokes around with the current flag bearer of American white supremacism and they get to provide the musical accompaniment? I'm even losing some respect for them over this.

    You're losing respect for people who are fulfilling their contractual obligations? Come on. Save that shit for the guy actually fucking up.

    Yeah, I can't hold the Roots accountable for what their people-pleaser boss is doing. But it's not the first time that I've wondered about the actual dynamics of the Roots/Fallon working relationship. Fallon's always struck me as being kind of dumbly (if somewhat benignly) apolitical, whereas the Roots prior to the Late Night/Tonight Show gig were absolutely political just by virtue of existing.
    posted by Strange Interlude at 7:20 AM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Fallon has had Hillary on a couple of times, no? I don't really watch late nite tv, so I'm not all that familiar with Fallon's shtick, but it's SOP for talk shows to have candidates, and comedy shows can't be held responsible for doing real journalism, that's not their job. My point is, I am terrified by the thought of a trump presidency, but I hardly think that some appearance on a late night show is going to swing things in any direction.
    posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:23 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Ballon drop (take 2) with Bill Clinton & Trevor Noah on the Daily Show last night. :)
    posted by hilaryjade at 7:26 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]




    Damn, Trevor Noah! "[Trump] thinks half the country is a basket of deportables".

    After Jon Stewart long tenure, "comedians as journalists" doesn't seem weird. The media twist that does still weirds me out though, is the fact that Buzzfeed now has money to pay reporters to do serious investigative pieces, next to which they put out a listicle with "Three Lies About Birtherism To Look Out For In Donald Trump’s Speech", alongside a listicle with the clickbait title "22 Memes You’ll Relate To If You’re Extra AF". (Which I still can't parse, even after looking 'AF' up in Urban dictionary, though the listicle itself suggests it's something to do with knowingly being petty and attention seeking.)
    posted by fragmede at 7:32 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Ugh, when did TV become a business?
    posted by indubitable at 7:32 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Questlove is the kind of guy who will do what he's been hired to do, but will write up a thoughtful essay on the experience afterward. He's a smart guy and I hope he shares some thoughts.
    posted by naju at 7:33 AM on September 16, 2016 [25 favorites]


    Remember the Bridgegate-inspired duet with Springsteen? This led to articles like this: Jimmy Fallon, Democrat Political Asset

    Fallon is an entertaining clown and people like the circus. I'm contrasting this with the time Carson interviewed Jim Garrison (the subject of Stone's JFK movie) and didn't miss a beat asking follow-up questions and not letting things slide.
    posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:35 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Looks like they grabbed all the black people they could find and threw them up there behind the podium. I'm ashamed of every one of them. I mean it's not like there aren't disgraceful people that have always existed, and if they took a stand (and presumably some did) and got fired or whatever, they still have to find a way to eat, but have some honor. Don't stand up there and vouch for this hatemonger. I'm still waiting and hoping that someone does actually make Trump look like a fool. I know that there are black republicans, and I've heard plenty of xenophobic things from black people, but I learned long ago what Jelani Cobb was saying on tv last night. If you're talking bad about latinx people in the morning, and talking bad about another race in the afternoon, you're going to be talking bad about black people later that night.
    posted by cashman at 7:35 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Trump: Hilary is the real racist.
    Media: Is Hilary the real racist? We're just asking the question.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 7:36 AM on September 16, 2016 [15 favorites]


    And yeah, having a major presidential candidate on your show is a "get". Lots of eyeballs and watercooler talk. There was no major analysis other than that, and while you can naturally find it despicable, a late night show has no responsibility to take political stances that could potentially alienate half their viewer base. So it's repelling but shrug.
    posted by naju at 7:37 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]




    Tina Fey and Amy Poehler (the latter of whom is fundraising for Hillary on the eve of the debate) are going to be fucking weaponised.

    "Bitch is the new black!"
    posted by kirkaracha at 7:42 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    comedy shows can't be held responsible for doing real journalism, that's not their job. My point is, I am terrified by the thought of a trump presidency, but I hardly think that some appearance on a late night show is going to swing things in any direction.

    There's being a host of a comedy show and not doing journalism, and there's being the host of a comedy show and indulging/normalizing a figure who has become a standard bearer for white supremacy.

    But hey, we seem to have a lot of actual journalists that don't believe that it is their job to hold anybody accountable and do fact checking, so I don't see much point in shitting on Fallon. He's the court buffoon.
    posted by nubs at 7:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I can't believe I've found one thing I agree with Trump on.

    Give it a day.
    posted by Etrigan at 7:45 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Re OTC birth control, I'm sure he'll fumble it back once someone asks about how this seems to be different than most republican politicians.
    posted by R343L at 7:46 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    So the president spoke just now from the oval office about this issue. MSNBC didn't cover it live, because they were showing a bunch of people standing around in a hotel waiting for this racist hatemonger to show up to his own event. What in the entire fuck is going on with my country.
    posted by cashman at 7:47 AM on September 16, 2016 [46 favorites]


    CNN: Donald Trump's unfulfilled promises
    Usually though, these failures to follow through on campaign pledges come after the official wins and takes office.
    Not so for Donald Trump. The Republican nominee has repeatedly defied his own commitments and fudged assurances -- and done it well before a single vote was cast.
    Here is a short list of guarantees the Trump has either reversed on or refused to deliver.


    1. Make public his tax returns
    2. Release 'detailed medical records'
    3. Hold a news conference on Melania immigration questions
    4. Forswear the use of teleprompters
    5. Use his own money to finance campaign
    6. Pay legal fees for rally-goer who punched a protester
    7. Make you tired of winning so much

    Number 6 is particularly interesting because it hasn't been covered very much and it was a flat-out promise that was broken. No way to spin it other than a broken promise.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [24 favorites]




    Anybody who converses with DJT in a public forum has an obligation to confront him. We have lowered the bar so fucking low
    posted by angrycat at 7:50 AM on September 16, 2016 [21 favorites]


    Haha -- #7 is hilarious. Good job CNN.
    posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:51 AM on September 16, 2016


    So what proportion of this Trump event is going to be actual politics and what proportion will be advertising his new hotel?
    posted by Bloxworth Snout at 7:51 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    @SenSanders: "My dad was born in Poland. Do you know how many people ever asked me whether or not I was born in America? Nobody ever asked me that.

    Maybe it has something to do with the color of my skin."
    posted by Roommate at 7:53 AM on September 16, 2016 [79 favorites]


    I'm not mad at Fallon for having Trump on his show, but I'm mad at Rachel Maddow, Rhodes Scholar, for showing the hair mussing *twice* on her show and exclaiming about it like it's news.
    posted by zutalors! at 7:58 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    OTC Birth Control is not a slam-dunk-good-thing. From a Vox post:
    ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists), Planned Parenthood, and other advocacy groups have opposed previous Republican efforts to move birth control over the counter.

    They argue that proposals like Trump’s could make the Pill more expensive, because insurance plans typically don’t cover non-prescription drugs like Tylenol or Motrin. That means if birth control moved over the counter, women might have to start paying more out of pocket for their contraceptives.

    ACOG president Mark DeFrancesco has said proposals like the one Trump outlined “make more women have to pay for their birth control, and for some women, the cost would be prohibitive.”
    posted by achrise at 7:58 AM on September 16, 2016 [26 favorites]


    I can't believe I've found one thing I agree with Trump on. Donald Trump says women should have access to over-the-counter birth control: ‘You have women that just aren’t able to go get a prescription’

    If he doesn't also believe that insurance should be required to cover OTC birth control--which AFAIK he doesn't--then it's probably a poison pill (pun not intended) that'll screw over women with any insurance plan he and Congress deem insufficient. Of course, that would probably be all of them, but since no one's pressing him on details about any of his proposals, I don't trust anyone to ask about it at this point.
    posted by zombieflanders at 7:58 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    ACOG president Mark DeFrancesco has said proposals like the one Trump outlined “make more women have to pay for their birth control, and for some women, the cost would be prohibitive.”

    And you wondered why Republicans are so in favor of over-the-counter birth control!
    posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:00 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    “His temperament is the idea of winning.” - Trump spokeman just now.
    posted by Bloxworth Snout at 8:03 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I'm not mad at Fallon for having Trump on his show, but I'm mad at Rachel Maddow, Rhodes Scholar, for showing the hair mussing *twice* on her show and exclaiming about it like it's news.

    It IS. That grinning, jovial jackass just invited THE major white supremacist leader in the US onto his show and played and joked around with him like it's fucking nothing. He's normalizing Trump, normalizing treating him like he's just any other random dude, and that's tremendously harmful to the effort to defeat him.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 8:07 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    It IS.

    That's not how Maddow phrased it. She gave kudos to both Trump and Fallon for "going there"
    posted by zutalors! at 8:10 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Guys, this press conference is just a way to charge his hotel opening to the campaign and get free press for it. And the media fell for it. Of course they did. Ughhhhhhh what even is this election?!!??
    posted by melissasaurus at 8:10 AM on September 16, 2016 [23 favorites]


    mumimor: When one does something like this, one obviously needs to write the assignment, the curriculum, the daily tasks in a way that doesn't alert right wing pols. I'm not saying it is easy, but it is definitely necessary.

    I have been teaching merit badges for my sons' Boy Scout troop the last few years, and I have to say, the "Citizenship in the Community," Citizenship in the Nation," and "Citizenship in the World" badges are a lot of work -- but me and my pal Steve do it every time the Scoutmaster asks.

    Most of the boys -- in grades six to eight -- have a near-zero knowledge of the topics. Presumably a lot of what they do know is just slop-over from their parents, but some of the stuff that we assume Everyone Knows just isn't there. So we step up and do the remedial teaching, plus the material in the books.

    Monday was Back To School Night at the high school. My (Freshman) son's civics teacher -- who said he usually is theater teacher, but this year has nine Civics sections and one theater course -- came right out and said that the current political disfunction is mostly due to people not having basic citizenship skills. Bless the man; I think he's correct, and I hope he can reach these students -- for all our sakes.
    posted by wenestvedt at 8:10 AM on September 16, 2016 [25 favorites]


    Sam Wang is worried.

    Well, maybe; he sounds to me like he is just not complacent.
    I still expect Clinton’s lead to increase again, on the grounds that she has led all year. Previously, I noted that the national Clinton-vs.-Trump margin in 2016 has averaged 4.5 percentage points. The standard deviation is 2.2 points, comparable to the four Presidential elections from 2004 to 2012. This high level of stability is consistent with the intense voter entrenchment of the last 20 years. Today, conditions seem right for regression to the mean – especially with the first debate coming up on September 26th. I can see the stories now: “Clinton shows renewed vigor” or something like that.

    [snip]

    The close race that we see today is likely to be transient. Odds favor a swing back toward Democrats, but this is by no means certain. You can influence the outcome. The most effective use of your time and money is to work on races that are closest to the edge, i.e. in the 20-80% probability range.

    posted by Gelatin at 8:11 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    “His temperament is the idea of winning.” - Trump spokeman just now.


    this
    fucking
    election
    posted by murphy slaw at 8:11 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    That's not how Maddow phrased it. She gave kudos to both Trump and Fallon for "going there"

    How obnoxiously trivial of her, and out of character for her.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 8:13 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    In case you were worried that Trump would not speak out on the Cosmo journalist who interviewed his daughter and made her look bad...worry no more. He is running for President but he does have his priorities: On FBN, Trump calls @prachigu a "non intelligent reporter" and says Cosmo is a "dead" magazine. (@prachigu read his past quotes to Ivanka.)
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:16 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    “His temperament is the idea of winning.”

    Can I assume from the ridiculousness that the spokesperson in question was Katrina Pierson?
    posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:16 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Notes on the ground where I am:

    Bad news--I had an appointment to go to the local campaign office with my kids on Wednesday, during their open hours, but when we showed up the office was closed.

    Good news--the swag I ordered during the convention arrived. Within five minutes of opening the box, I've got a sign in my window and one on my lawn, and two stickers ("Hillary for America" and "Love trumps hate") on my car. Also enough stuff remaining to power a debate-viewing party, AND a Woman Card.

    I live in the bluest of blue districts so I doubt I will change many minds--and indeed there are a few Trump lawn signs out nearby. For those of us who are getting nervous about polls, I am happy to be an out and proud cheerleader.
    posted by Sublimity at 8:17 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    “His temperament is the idea of winning.” - Trump spokeman just now.
    posted by Bloxworth Snout at 8:03 AM on September 16 [2 favorites +] [!]


    People really need to go back to using the [real] tag for things like this.

    I was ready to believe that I was a fly-on-the-wall in the Simpsons writers room circa '95-'96
    posted by Golem XIV at 8:17 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    he sounds to me like he is just not complacent.

    I'm not at all confident that Hilary will be given any credit whatsoever for "winning" the first debate no matter how well she does. Trump simply has to avoid shitting himself or literally yelling out the N word on stage and the NYT and CNN will give it to him hands down, while calling Clinton a harpy. She's going to have to win in the face of a constant drumbeat of "shadows and clouds", while we've yet to see how low the bar can go for Trump, he's about to be universally lauded for admitting the President is an American citizen.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 8:18 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Ann Coulter: “Trump Adultery Approved By God Because They Met In A Church”

    Actually they met at a tennis tournament. But who cares about the truth anymore?
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:18 AM on September 16, 2016 [33 favorites]


    How obnoxiously trivial of her, and out of character for her.

    Sadly it's not. I mean I give her high marks for a lot of the reports she does, and the ridiculously thorough nature of the stories she writes and delivers, such as the one on the "know nothings". But Maddow has been jokey with this stuff for almost the entire year. I remarked a long time ago to a friend that it's like once Stewart retired, she felt like she would pick up that mantle of making you laugh with the news.

    It was okay during the primaries, when she would 'poof' off the republican candidates after she excoriated them and made fun of their lack of support and kooky ideas. But after the primaries were near over and in the midst of some horrific statements by pastors supporting cruz, for example, it became clear that she should be serious in the face of serious events. But she has kept up the Jon Stewart thing.

    It's her show, she can do what she wants, but it seems like they lumped all the outrage onto Lawrence (the show after hers) and Rachel just has intermittent times where she gets upset by the horrible things Trimp does and says.
    posted by cashman at 8:19 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Actually they met at a tennis tournament.

    St. Jude's Annual Narthex Open, presumably.
    posted by cortex at 8:20 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    St. Jude's Annual Narthex Open, presumably.

    As a man who's been in his share of narthexes, I assume that had to be table tennis.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 8:22 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Great, now we're going to have the ENTIRE WEEKEND devoted to the media patting Trump on the head for admitting a well-established fact.

    The bar was lowered that far.

    Auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh.
    posted by Dashy at 8:22 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    ...a late night show has no responsibility to take political stances that could potentially alienate half their viewer base.

    I agree, although that leads me to a very different conclusion about whether Jimmy Fallon should have Trump on his show.
    posted by one_bean at 8:23 AM on September 16, 2016


    This morning on the Today show: Hillary Clinton is speaking live. Here's five minutes of footage of a room where Donald Trump will be speaking later.
    posted by kirkaracha at 8:23 AM on September 16, 2016 [27 favorites]


    His temperament is the idea of winning.

    I'm in editing mode at work, so I'm trying to decide how I would edit that sentence to make sense. I don't think it's possible.
    posted by diogenes at 8:24 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    As a man who's been in his share of narthexes

    braggart
    posted by beerperson at 8:24 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Do we have a nuclear option on this election? By that, I mean is there someone, or multiple someones who would ordinarily not comment on elections who would really shake the American public? I know scotus is not that, but let's think outside of the box here. Who (as an individual or a group) would be powerful and shocking enough to make people understand what the consequences are of electing this little Mussolini?
    posted by Sophie1 at 8:28 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    I've never really liked the formulation, 'Love Trumps Hate'. The message may connote several different ways, with a plurality of them at odds with the way intended.

    I would prefer something like, "I'll take a Natural Straight over a Wild Trump every time."
    posted by perspicio at 8:28 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Who (as an individual or a group) would be powerful and shocking enough to make people understand what the consequences are of electing this little Mussolini?

    Zombie Reagan?
    posted by Etrigan at 8:30 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    This morning on the Today show: Hillary Clinton is speaking live. Here's five minutes of footage of a room where Donald Trump will be speaking later.

    And Trump hasn't even said anything notable, and this event has been on television for a good 30 minutes now. It's just his supporters talking about whatever they feel like.

    This is what Hillary needs to do - just have any old event and get up there and just have people ramble on. But they won't cover it.

    (Finally MSNBC pulls back and goes to their anchors instead of just covering Trump people randomly joking and talking and taking shots at Hillary)

    We're so screwed.
    posted by cashman at 8:30 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Millennials are starting to realize that Clinton is not the same as Trump:
    Hillary Clinton got one piece of good news this week: An increasing number of young voters can tell her policies apart from Donald Trump’s.

    For Clinton, that’s no small feat.

    In July, Tom Steyer’s group NextGen Climate released the first battleground poll of millennial voters this election cycle. The takeaway was a startling number: roughly four out of 10 voters age 34 and younger saw no difference between the two candidates on the issues most important to them.

    [...]

    Clinton also gained five points since July among likely millennial voters who say they intend to vote for her: 48 percent now back Clinton compared to 23 percent for Trump in a four-way race.

    Her gains among Sanders’ most die-hard voters are worth looking at. Around the time of the Democratic National Convention in July, one in five millennials were still devoted Sanders supporters, and most of them didn’t see a difference between Clinton and Trump. Now, the Sanders holdouts have shrunk from 21 to 16 percent, and slightly fewer Sanders supporters still claim there’s no difference between the two major-party candidates.
    posted by palindromic at 8:31 AM on September 16, 2016 [19 favorites]


    I mean, then again, not a lot of people are watching the news on a late Friday morning, probably.
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:32 AM on September 16, 2016


    They stopped covering the event for 3 minutes, then almost hurt themselves going back to covering this shitbucket live. He just rambles the fuck on. Hillary needs to just start doing events for hours on end with cameras there. Just talk about whatever she feels, have others in her staff interacting with her, making statements about how great she is, etc.

    Because our media is getting suckered by this dumb ass.
    posted by cashman at 8:32 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Jesus christ.
    He suckered the media into covering him for like 35 minutes, and having supporters massage his ass over and over, at the opening of his hotel, and then with the last 20 seconds, said the president was born in the US. Then he walked off stage.
    Jesus christ.
    posted by cashman at 8:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]




    Hillary needs to just start doing events for hours on end

    It wouldn't even matter. There have been multiple occasions this campaign, including today as localhuman pointed out above, when Hillary or Obama were speaking live, and all the networks were still just showing a live feed of Trump's empty podium. They are obsessed. The more he trolls them, the more obsessed they get. They'll act outraged on twitter for a day, and the next day be right back fawning over him.
    posted by Roommate at 8:37 AM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    That clip is why he was being coy about answering the question earlier, saying he'd do so when the time was right. "The right time" was when he could drag it out for free media coverage of his hotel opening. Bonus points for pulling attention from Clinton's appearance.

    I'm so thoroughly disgusted I could scre
    posted by Superplin at 8:39 AM on September 16, 2016 [32 favorites]


    It wouldn't even matter.

    I know - I agree with you. I just can't believe this is happening.
    posted by cashman at 8:40 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    trump is basically noface from spirited away and all the gold he's passed out to the press is going to turn to garbage and leave all of us to clean up the mess
    posted by Tevin at 8:40 AM on September 16, 2016 [30 favorites]


    Tomorrow: A Trump press conference on the color of the sky. If he says "blue" then this could represent a real pivot for his campaign.
    posted by rocket88 at 8:40 AM on September 16, 2016 [15 favorites]


    Chris Hayes: If you think today is a good day for Trump: no way. His best days are when he doesn't dominate the news.
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:41 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    And now he's taking the press pool cameras on a tour of the hotel. Because of course.
    posted by Roommate at 8:42 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Katy Tur saying the press were conned into thinking this was going to be a press conference
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:43 AM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Tomorrow: A Trump press conference on the color of the sky. If he says "blue" then this could represent a real pivot for his campaign.

    No. Tomorrow: A Trump press conference on the state of the ocean. He'll say it's rising because of Hillary Clinton and the deals she and Bill made with NAFTA. He'll stop the rising oceans with a new generation of renewable clean coal energy that will put our miners back to work!
    posted by Talez at 8:43 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Trump campaign would not allow pool reporter or print pool on hotel tour. No reporters allowed. Just pool cam. (cite)
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]




    Someone ask Trump about the "compelling evidence that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii." J/K like our press corp. would take Trump to task. Maybe a Cosmo reporter could do it.
    posted by drezdn at 8:45 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]




    CNN: Donald Trump: Hillary Clinton started birther movement

    NOWHERE IN THE FUCKING ARTICLE does it manifestly refute this absolute lie.

    Do your goddamn job, media.
    posted by 0xFCAF at 8:46 AM on September 16, 2016 [39 favorites]


    Here's an interesting campaign ad wherein Jason Kander, Afghanistan veteran and Democratic candidate for Senate in Missouri, assembles a rifle blindfolded while advocating for better background checks for gun purchases. His opponent is Sen. Roy Blunt, who sucks.
    posted by palindromic at 8:47 AM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Do we have a nuclear option on this election? By that, I mean is there someone, or multiple someones who would ordinarily not comment on elections who would really shake the American public? I know scotus is not that, but let's think outside of the box here. Who (as an individual or a group) would be powerful and shocking enough to make people understand what the consequences are of electing this little Mussolini?
    posted by Sophie1


    No one really. Too many don't believe.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 8:47 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Katy Tur saying the press were conned into thinking this was going to be a press conference

    No, they were given a very good hint that it was going to be a promo for the hotel, some other bullshit, then some more bullshit and no questions. Also, everything is trolling 2016.

    The producers decided to show it anyway.

    They showed up for the thing, and the producers stuck with it live, because they want to have the cameras rolling live if Trump says something crazy, like an afternoon car chase. They do not need to do that. They need to stop doing it. Let Fox show it live.
    posted by holgate at 8:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    CNN: Donald Trump: Hillary Clinton started birther movement

    NOWHERE IN THE FUCKING ARTICLE does it manifestly refute this absolute lie.


    That article is a year old, but your point stands.
    posted by schoolgirl report at 8:52 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Do we have a nuclear option on this election?

    An explicit, full-volume, big-fanfare endorsement of Hillary from both HW and W would probably do it. I think the chance of that is just about zero.
    posted by tclark at 8:53 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    NyTimes tv critic James Poniewozik: Rickrollengassenlichtung: German word for the experience of simultaneous rickrolling and gaslighting.
    posted by melissasaurus at 8:58 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    “While these American heroes are, you know, people that we should all show reverence and respect, they are much greater men than Rick Astley, it's hard to imagine this as anything other than a political Rick-roll,” Tapper said.
    posted by kirkaracha at 8:59 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Compare the WashPost and NYT leads. Post is the one that bothers to mention Trump's false accusation about Clinton.

    It's no longer possible to argue that the NYT is not objectively pro-Trump and actively campaigning on his behalf.
    posted by T.D. Strange at 8:59 AM on September 16, 2016 [16 favorites]


    the panic tear you guys are going on is just convincing me of a Clinton win.
    posted by zutalors! at 8:59 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Do your goddamn job, media.

    The Today Show said "falsely claimed" when they reported this. I've been less disappointed with their coverage lately. They did the same thing the other day on some other issue Trump was lying about, and just flat out said it wasn't true. I think it was the parental leave policy, he said Clinton had no plans and Today was like "but actually she's had one since 2015."

    Re: Fallon, I've long felt like Conan O'Brien's loss of the Tonight Show and Jay Leno's reinstatement was a crude repair to some rupture in the space-time continuum we'll never comprehend. Somewhere in some alternate universe he never lost the gig and folks are chuckling at his attempts to make the deadly boring Clinton/Bush rematch funny, Prince and Bowie are still alive, and the last A Song of Ice and Fire book was just published. Meanwhile we're stuck in this shit reality

    Hope you're enjoying your normal timeline motherfuckers, we're coming through the Stargate for you someday
    posted by prize bull octorok at 9:00 AM on September 16, 2016 [45 favorites]


    Do we have a nuclear option on this election?

    Well, we do, but I don't think many people in this thread are going to vote for him.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 9:00 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Almost Every Word of Donald Trump's Birther Statement is a Lie
    Hillary Clinton did not allege that the president was born in Kenya. Trump did not compel Obama to release his birth certificate "when others had not"—Obama had already released a copy of his birth certificate, but critics, including Trump, believed it to be a fake. So Obama released a longer birth certificate in 2011—but that release did not bring "closure" to the issue. Instead, Trump called it a forgery, citing "Israeli science," and announced that he was sending a team of investigators to Hawaii to uncover the truth. He suggested that a Hawaiian health official who knew of the cover-up had died in suspicious circumstances.
    ifeellikeimtakingcrazypills.gif
    posted by Doktor Zed at 9:04 AM on September 16, 2016 [30 favorites]


    So Trump has been spewing bigoted propaganda and blatant lies and been met with continued dispassionate coverage by the media, but the two incidents when they finally seem to get worked up are when reporters get stuck on a plane and when they get tricked into covering an event? Somebody really needs to dump some perspective on top of their collective head.
    posted by parallellines at 9:07 AM on September 16, 2016 [24 favorites]


    The correspondents following Trump are apparently pissed. Sopan Deb is gobsmacked. John King is straight up pissed. Katy Tur doesn't appear to be happy.
    posted by Talez at 9:07 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    I can't believe I've found one thing I agree with Trump on. Donald Trump says women should have access to over-the-counter birth control: ‘You have women that just aren’t able to go get a prescription’

    At this point with any Republican or Trump proposal I immediately start looking for why it's terrible, because anything that they suggest that sounds like it might be good is going to be actually terrible.

    In this case it's an easy one because if BCP is OTC then insurance can stop covering it and the price can skyrocket, screwing women and helping pharma companies all in one fell swoop.
    posted by winna at 9:09 AM on September 16, 2016 [31 favorites]


    oh, my god, with the Chicken Littling in here! STOP IT. You are part of the problem if all you do is live-blog the news and complain about how we're fucking doomed. If you're so worried, go actually do something about it.
    posted by palomar at 9:12 AM on September 16, 2016 [16 favorites]


    Some of us are a) terrified and b) on the way to the dentist
    posted by angrycat at 9:14 AM on September 16, 2016 [21 favorites]


    c) terrified of the dentist
    posted by beerperson at 9:15 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    If you're so worried, go actually do something about it.

    I do; this is just where I come to vent and read other people venting about the closest thing to a true waste of oxygen I've seen running for President in my lifetime.
    posted by Mooski at 9:17 AM on September 16, 2016 [25 favorites]


    yea, I think people just need to let off steam.
    posted by zutalors! at 9:18 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    So Trump has been spewing bigoted propaganda and blatant lies and been met with continued dispassionate coverage by the media, but the two incidents when they finally seem to get worked up are when reporters get stuck on a plane and when they get tricked into covering an event?

    The campaign press takes all this stuff incredibly personally. Clinton gave interviews every week, has a huge number of detailed policy proposals, and has had consistent policy positions for a long time. But the press hated that she didn't give press conferences, because if you're not asking "tough" questions at a press conference it's hard to raise your stature.

    It's not like we needed a press conference to find out what Clinton's position on the minimum wage is. Or to get yet another response about her email server. Or to ask any other number of questions, because she was already answering them in other forums. But not having a press conference was the cardinal sin because those other forums don't stroke the reporters' egos vigorously enough.
    posted by 0xFCAF at 9:19 AM on September 16, 2016 [25 favorites]


    maybe we should keep calm and trust Sam Wang instead of Nate Silver this time

    I wouldn't; Sam Wang's PEC forecast win probabilities have been described as "intrinsically inaccurate" by no less an authority than Dr. Sam Wang, producer of the PEC forecast.

    Nate Silver may have made correct assumptions or he may not have; there's room for discussion and it's hard to tell. The same is true for a number of Wang's assumptions. But fundamentally, Sam Wang's not forecasting win probabilities correctly, and he knows he's not doing it correctly (or at least he knew it in 2008). His method will always underestimate the probability of the lower-polling candidate winning, likely by a significant margin.

    You could plot the relative approval of Wang over Silver on Metafilter, and it would match the gap in their forecast likelihoods of Clinton winning to an eerie extent. It's fascinating; I've never seen epistemic closure in real time in a liberal group before.
    posted by Homeboy Trouble at 9:19 AM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Some of us are doing something IRL and are still scared.
    posted by Sophie1 at 9:19 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Yeah, we're all scared. But sitting around finding ways to scare ourselves further is not helping. Sitting around endlessly covering the minutae of reporting that we all agree has been exactly this shitty for months and months and months now is not helping. It's actually making your fear and panic so much worse.

    This is exactly where every election has been at this point in the cycle during this entire century. Please, please, PLEASE, I am literally begging everyone to please just stop and use the critical thinking we pride ourselves on having here, just stop, just stop, just stop.
    posted by palomar at 9:20 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I mean, it does help some of us to talk about it.
    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:20 AM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    An explicit, full-volume, big-fanfare endorsement of Hillary from both HW and W would probably do it. I think the chance of that is just about zero.

    I think the chance of that is significantly higher than zero. Get Barbara and Jeb on the stage as well.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 9:21 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Stop assuming the people in this thread are just sitting around. Many of them are doing other things, but like to also discuss the subject.

    If you don't like the discussion, maybe this isn't the right thread for you.
    posted by maxsparber at 9:22 AM on September 16, 2016 [31 favorites]


    Yeah, I don't think there's really a clearcut "don't hang out on MetaFilter talking about the major developing thing" argument to be made to folks on MetaFilter in the thread about that thing. I feel very much the idea of taking a deep breath and thinking about what to do next, but this isn't a campaign office and we're sort of just here because here is where we want to be right now.
    posted by cortex at 9:22 AM on September 16, 2016 [40 favorites]


    Interesting development in the Hillary Clinton online phone banks- up through yesterday, online volunteers could select from a large number of states (yesterday was the longest list I had ever seen, must have been 20+ states). Today, there's only banks open in 6 states- PA for Women, NC for African American Women, VA, VA for Asian/Pacific Islanders, CA, KY and GA.
    posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:26 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I'm all about the venting but the performative despair and the "these are totally the awful things the terrible media/the stupid voters are gonna do in light of this thing that just happened" are my least favorite parts of these threads.
    posted by prize bull octorok at 9:28 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Mod note: Couple comments removed. palomar, seriously, I appreciate this is something that is bothering you and so I'm sympathetic on that front but the way you are manifesting that in here at the moment is in fact pretty crappy and I need you to give the thread a little space for now.
    posted by cortex (staff) at 9:30 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    and we're sort of just here because here is where we want to be right now.

    I was just looking to buy a used car.
    posted by beerperson at 9:30 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    maybe we should keep calm and trust Sam Wang instead of Nate Silver this time

    The big difference between Wang's and Silver's forecasts is that Wang assumed the post-convention polling would remain more-or-less the same, while Silver assumed that the Republican candidate would have a natural advantage and polling would tighten or flip over time. It's pretty clear at this point Silver's predictions were correct.
    posted by dirigibleman at 9:30 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I don't think just discussing current events necessarily leads to being panic-stricken. I'm not too panicked. I'm eating a Frosty.

    People are freaked out and talking about it might help them be less freaked out. People handle stress differently.
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    The big difference between Wang's and Silver's forecasts is that Wang assumed the post-convention polling would remain more-or-less the same, while Silver assumed that the Republican candidate would have a natural advantage and polling would tighten or flip over time. It's pretty clear at this point Silver's predictions were correct.

    The other meta- thing that they've been arguing about is whether or not these predictions should be stable or variable as the polls change, and Silver *seems* to have been right about that as well; the day-to-day polls don't seem to provide data that can output a particularly stable prediction about the November election months in advance.
    posted by gerryblog at 9:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Sorry if I upset any of you. This whole situation is seriously upsetting to me.
    posted by cashman at 9:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]



    and we're sort of just here because here is where we want to be right now.


    What's funny about all this is that I was never really into online discussion and then I really got into the first season of The Apprentice (I was young, ok?) and found TWoP and got really into that. Then I thought the moderation was too tight for me (can't start a comment with um, can't comment on others' comments) and I found Metafilter via Anil Dash and liked that it wasn't the Wild West of trolls but not as tight.

    So, I'm here because of Trump is what I'm saying...
    posted by zutalors! at 9:35 AM on September 16, 2016 [22 favorites]


    Here are some things that give me hope:

    1. Trump has consistently been behind Clinton in the polls. I don't trust any individual poll, and there is always the possibility that Trump is such a black swan that we can't count on polls in the aggregate, but, in general, he has not been winning this election.
    2. The right wing has spent literally decades trying to dig up any dirt they can about Clinton. If there is to be an October surprise, I don't think it will be something new we learn about Clinton. I do think it is possible there is something absolutely monstrous about Trump out there.
    3. Obama won, in large part, because of a skilled ground game. The Dems still have those skills, as the Clinton campaign has repeatedly demonstrated. The Trump campaign is lazy and disorganized. That's going to count for a lot.
    4. The Republican establishment is not behind Trump, and so a lot of the tricks they engage in as a group -- push polling, whisper campaigns, voter suppression -- Trump can't count on.
    5. Clinton has been preparing like hell for the debates. Trump has been golfing with his cronies and coming up with put-downs. It's going to cost him.
    6. The media are finally sick of this shit. I saw some Twitter notices that newscasters erased their footage of Trump giving them a tour of his hotel to protest the bait and switch. I think the curve he has been enjoying is going to dry up.
    7. He has emboldened racists to the point that they are going to push themselves to be the very public face of his campaign, and, honestly, there was a time when you could count on the racist vote to push your campaign across the top, but nowadays it is counterproductive.
    posted by maxsparber at 9:36 AM on September 16, 2016 [52 favorites]


    2. The right wing has spent literally decades trying to dig up any dirt they can about Clinton. If there is to be an October surprise, I don't think it will be something new we learn about Clinton. I do think it is possible there is something absolutely monstrous about Trump out there.

    I've grown worried she really is significantly ill and it's going to come out. It seems like that's the only thing on the table that could really blow up in a seriously bad way.
    posted by gerryblog at 9:39 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    The right wing has spent literally decades trying to dig up any dirt they can about Clinton.

    The realization that after millions of dollars and literal decades of investigation, slander, and accusations, the Republicans still haven't found something to pin on Hillary Clinton was a big factor in how I see her and understand the perception of her. If she really was corrupt, they'd have nailed her to the wall by now.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 9:41 AM on September 16, 2016 [56 favorites]


    So, I'm here because of Trump is what I'm saying...

    Congrats, zutalors!
    Unless he's growing portobellos in his underwear drawer, your MeFi membership is likely the only good thing ever spawned by Trump.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 9:42 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    what's ironic is that probably the whole reason we had the "fainting" episode at the 9/11 memorial was because she felt like she had to push herself to attend so as not to play into "she's hiding a major health crisis!" nonsense by taking a couple days off to get better
    posted by prize bull octorok at 9:43 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Gerryblog - her 2 speeches yesterday were pitch perfect in both tone and content. She's not sick. She had pneumonia. That's it.
    posted by Sophie1 at 9:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [16 favorites]


    We're actually praising the media who use the term "falsely accused" when describing Trump's claim that Clinton started the birther movement. It's pretty much the softest language that they could use, and in a sane world they would outright call him a lying liar who lies on this and every other bald-faced bullshit statement he's made.

    It's obvious that they fear for the future of their dying industry so much they're terrified of making any statement that could potentially lose them readers or page views. Being balanced and useless has become their survival tactic.
    posted by rocket88 at 9:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Network pools refuse to cover Trump hotel tour:

    In a show of joint defiance, the major television networks collectively voted to pull a camera and erase video of Donald Trump giving a tour of his hotel, a protest of the campaign preventing any editorial presence on the tour.

    This seems pretty unprecedented. I mean, I'm losing track of "unprecedented" in this hot mess, but still. This seems that way.
    posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:45 AM on September 16, 2016 [42 favorites]


    I've been an MSNBC-girl since MSNBC started, but I'm listening to CNN right now, and they seem to be almost as mad as I am.

    I know it's because they're really upset about a producer being physically restrained from participating in the tour -- but I'm really pleased to see a major news outlet more mainstream than MSNBC finally expressing some outrage over Trump's behavior. Even if it is of the "now it's personal!" variety.
    posted by kythuen at 9:45 AM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    In this case it's an easy one because if BCP is OTC then insurance can stop covering it and the price can skyrocket, screwing women and helping pharma companies all in one fell swoop.

    If birth control is available OTC, does that necessarily mean that your doctor/OB can't write a prescription for it?

    So I would think that most people would still get the Rx from their doc so it gets covered as normal. Then if you don't need it to be covered or just don't want to deal with a doctor, you can still just go buy it OTC.

    I would still have a problem with it if I have to deal with insurance to get reimbursed rather than the doctor's office/pharmacy.

    Just because Trump put the policy forward doesn't necessarily mean it's bad policy. But mostly I'm just trying to maintain some sense of objective reality and tenaciously hang on to it.
    posted by VTX at 9:46 AM on September 16, 2016



    Unless he's growing portobellos in his underwear drawer, your MeFi membership is likely the only good thing ever spawned by Trump.


    There's still hope for Barron. The movie version of Barron Trump: 2034 could be interesting. Maybe he'll break from the family and lead the rebel army.
    posted by zutalors! at 9:46 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    My thoughts on Clinton v. Trump weirdly parallel how I react to any news about players on my fantasy team.

    Sunday: (Andrew Luck* is #1 QB Week 1)
    yesssss both i and he are football geniuses and i am going to win so hard!

    Wednesday:
    OMG LIMITED PRACTICE FOR ANDREW LUCK NOOOOOOooooooo

    Thursday:
    STILL LIMITED WHAT IF HE NEVER THROWS AGAIN

    Friday:
    oh i see he started and was top QB last week despite limited pract- what's this 'watch his status Friday in case something changes.' WHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

    Sunday: (Andrew Luck starts, has his regular totally good day)
    yesssssss he is the perfect QB1!

    Wednesday:
    OMG LIMITED PRACTICE FOR ANDREW LUCK NOOOOOOooooooo



    *Hillary Clinton is Andrew Luck and Donald Trump is the grim foreboding of serious injury for the purposes of this analogy.
    posted by palindromic at 9:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    I've grown worried she really is significantly ill and it's going to come out.

    Tim Kaine is pretty terrific for a mostly unknown guy. I wish he was getting more coverage, but Trump is sucking up most of the oxygen. I think I heard Tim K. talking to Steve Inskeep on NPR really early this morning. He was really good about deploring the deplorables. And talking about the history of desegregation in Virginia.
    posted by puddledork at 9:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]




    If birth control is available OTC, does that necessarily mean that your doctor/OB can't write a prescription for it?

    They can prescribe just about anything, but insurance usually won't cover OTC.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:49 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    *-Hillary Clinton is Andrew Luck and Donald Trump is the grim foreboding of serious injury for the purposes of this analogy.

    Who represents Jim Irsay's bizarre obsession with combining once-in-a-generation quarterbacks and virtually nonexistent offensive lines?
    posted by Pope Guilty at 9:52 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Donald Trump's Birther PR Stunt Beset By Chaos, Stage Collapse:
    As the press and producers and anyone with the ability to actually question Trump were locked in the ballroom, his stage collapsed...All on live TV. It was beautiful.
    Really the backdrop and not the stage, but metaphors gotta metaphor.
    posted by kirkaracha at 9:53 AM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Metafilter: Donald Trump is the grim foreboding of serious injury
    posted by Slap*Happy at 9:53 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]




    Trump and the traveling press have been playing a game, where neither side pretended to like the other, but everyone knew how the game was played and performed according to their assigned roles. After the bus incident last night and the hotel tour this morning capping off a long series of slights, that game is over. It's petty and stupid that it came down to this, but that's where we are. I doubt it will truly make a difference in Trump's coverage, but this is basically a war now.
    posted by zachlipton at 9:55 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Um. I like young people, I really do, but:

    If a four-way race brings down Clinton support from 70% to 50% isn't that excuse me for a bit of profanity A REALLY FUCKING BIG DEAL


    Comments like these and like what Clara Jeffrey tweeted yesterday are so frustrating. Keep in mind that the 18-29 demo has the highest support for Hillary and the lowest support for Trump out of all of the age demographics. God forbid if she doesn't win, maybe we can blame the older age demographics that supported her less than the young people, instead of blaming young people for supporting her more than anyone else but not enough to overcome the older people who didn't support her yet aren't being blamed for it
    posted by cobra_high_tigers at 9:55 AM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]


    ".@JohnKasich shakes his head after @POTUS answers a question about Trump and birtherism"

    https://vine.co/v/51Fi9aJhiVu
    posted by chris24 at 9:56 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    As the press and producers and anyone with the ability to actually question Trump were locked in the ballroom, his stage collapsed...All on live TV. It was beautiful.

    God bless the Teamsters!
    posted by Atom Eyes at 9:57 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]




    I had a prescription for omeprazole (Prilosec), which stopped being included in my (quite good!) insurance's prescription formulary a few years after it became OTC. At that time, I paid $8/90 day supply, but now it's more on the order of $25-35. Some insurance companies will cover some drugs that are available OTC, but some don't.
    posted by palindromic at 9:58 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    ".@JohnKasich shakes his head after @POTUS answers a question about Trump and birtherism"

    I agree with the person on Twitter who said, @politico: a statement of fact without context isn't exactly "journalism"
    posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:58 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    If there is to be an October surprise, I don't think it will be something new we learn about Clinton. I do think it is possible there is something absolutely monstrous about Trump out there.

    There is: "An anonymous “Jane Doe” filed a federal lawsuit against GOP presumptive nominee Donald Trump [on June 20, 2016], accusing him of raping her in 1994 when she was thirteen years old". (In yet another of Trump's coinkidinks, the month before, while this story was brewing, he suddenly brought up old accusations of rape against Bill Clinton for no apparent reason.)

    What would surprise me in October is if the mainstream press started covering that as news.
    posted by Doktor Zed at 9:59 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Katy Tur saying the press were conned into thinking this was going to be a press conference

    Well, after all, that's understandable, considering the trust Trump must have earned by being such a straight shooter in the past.

    Feh.
    posted by Gelatin at 10:00 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    I don't think that Epstein/Trump rape thing is going to go anywhere unless the person in question offers some kind of proof that they actually exist. It's kind of a hot potato too since Bill also hung around with notorious-procurer-of-teenage-girls-for-sex and owner-of-a-sex-island Epstein.
    posted by dis_integration at 10:02 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    How obnoxiously trivial of her, and out of character for her.

    Yes, because good journalism means treating minor, non-political events with the gravity of a thousand black holes, so you can clearly delineate which side you're on. jfc
    posted by krinklyfig at 10:02 AM on September 16, 2016


    I agree with the person on Twitter who said, @politico: a statement of fact without context isn't exactly "journalism"

    I agree. But I think his reaction, despite Politico not doing its job, is important. Kasich's politics aren't much better than Trump's in many areas, especially regarding women's issues, but his complete disgust with Trump and continued NeverTrump stance could very well be the difference if Clinton wins Ohio.
    posted by chris24 at 10:03 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    HRC on Facebook: What Donald Trump just did is a disgrace. Expressing zero regret for years of pushing a racist conspiracy theory, Trump again appointed himself judge and jury on President Obama's citizenship.

    Leading the birther movement is deplorable. Attempting to say it "did a great service" to the president who Trump attacked is asinine. When Trump tries to deflect blame for denying that President Obama was born in America, he is lying.

    Again, Trump turns his faults on others. Psychologists call it "projecting." Kids call it "I'm rubber, you're glue." This shouldn't have to be said: You don’t just get to say someone else did the worst things you’ve done. It doesn’t work. No one buys it.

    Trump has spent years peddling a racist conspiracy aimed at undermining the first African American president. He can't just take it back. The birther lie is what turned Trump from an ordinary reality TV star into a political figure. That origin story can't be unwritten. Trump’s birtherism stems from the same innate beliefs that led to discriminating against black tenants early in his career. That can't be undone.

    What Donald Trump should do: for once in his life, own up to his mistakes. Apologize to the president, and the American people.

    posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:05 AM on September 16, 2016 [63 favorites]




    Just because Trump put the policy forward doesn't necessarily mean it's bad policy. But mostly I'm just trying to maintain some sense of objective reality and tenaciously hang on to it.

    If Trump wins, either a coalition of Democrats and the remnant of the sane wing of the Republican congressional delegation will block changes to health care reform; or the GOP will completely dismantle the ACA and put in its place -- probably nothing?

    If the latter, getting your contraceptives OTC is gonna be the least of your medical concerns. I'd focus your worries, rather, on the likelihood that the insurance companies, which just spent the last 5 years adjusting to the new landscape of guaranteed-issue, community-rated government-subsidized individual insurance plans, will fall the fuck apart.

    Then we'll be back to Ron Paul's chickens-for-service model. Unless you have a really good job, or unless your employer generously decides to switch out your high-deductible plan for one that you don't have to pay out thousands of bucks before it covers anything.

    I estimate the typical childbirth will cost at least 20 goats. O brave new world.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 10:06 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    They can prescribe just about anything, but insurance usually won't cover OTC.

    Ah okay, that makes sense and it's what I thought, just not what I'd hoped. It looks like the ACA is specific to prescribed birth control. There is maybe an argument there that if it's prescribed by a doctor, it has to be covered, OTC or not but I doubt it would hold much weight.

    So we're back to a scheme to increase the costs of BC. Carry on. /derail
    posted by VTX at 10:07 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    .@JohnKasich shakes his head after @POTUS answers a question about Trump and birtherism

    Man John, you tried. I disagree with a lot of your policy positions, and you were on the wrong side of gay rights, not so great with women or climate change and many other things, but you stood on a stage with more than a dozen clowns as the only actual grown-ass adult with whom I seemed to share a reality and managed to generally act like you cared. Unlike every other GOP Primary candidate, you had at least some threshold at which you deemed things stupid, and for that, in this the bar-lowering year of 2016, that is enough to earn you my thanks. Thanks.
    posted by zachlipton at 10:07 AM on September 16, 2016 [32 favorites]


    That Trump statement was like Alex Jones saying, "You know, the government provides accurate information about stuff. Period. Thank you."

    In other news, Alex Jones reports 9/11 not an inside job, and David Icke admits world leaders are not reptilian mind-control aliens that feed on human infants. No word on chemtrails.
    posted by dis_integration at 10:08 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    He suckered the media into covering him for like 35 minutes, and having supporters massage his ass over and over, at the opening of his hotel, and then with the last 20 seconds, said the president was born in the US. Then he walked off stage.
    Jesus christ.


    There's an early season 1 episode of Babylon 5 called "Soul Hunter". The basic conceit is that there's a race of aliens who can capture the "soul" of an individual when they die, and they go about the universe collecting these souls, particularly those of great individuals.

    Anyways, in the episode a rogue Soul Hunter who kills people to get their souls, rather than waiting for death from other reasons, comes to the station. And he kidnaps one of the main characters to kill her and take her soul. And as she's strapped to his device, slowly dying, he can peep in and see things and learn about her. So he's doing this, and he turns to her and says "You would plan such a thing? You would do such a thing?"

    And later when another of the main characters comes to rescue his victim, during the fight the Soul Hunter basically says that he (the main character) doesn't understand what is going on, and that the alien race that his victim belongs to are up to something. "They're using you! They're using you!" he says.

    So that's a long seeming digression, but I've been thinking about that scene for a while now in relation to this election. Except Trump is the "victim" (except he's getting stronger and stronger, not weaker), and the people who have seen through him are the Soul Hunter, and the media is the "rescuer." We keep trying to tell the media they're being used, but they can't understand it in the context - all they see is the bright shiny of Trump.


    This is an entry in me attempting to make sense of the election through tortured analogies of scenes from old SF shows, part 1 of ????
    posted by nubs at 10:08 AM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Clinton's response is okay but all I really wanted was a youtube video of her eating some oreos.

    Then she looks at the camera and says, "Oh, Donald, did you want a cookie?"

    "No cookie for you."
    posted by tivalasvegas at 10:10 AM on September 16, 2016 [23 favorites]


    Yes, because good journalism means treating minor, non-political events with the gravity of a thousand black holes, so you can clearly delineate which side you're on. jfc

    Treating that two-bit Mussolini wannabe like he's just another celebrity is super-gross and helps to normalize him, to build an image of him as benign. That is a terrible and blameworthy thing.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 10:13 AM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Then she looks at the camera and says, "Oh, Donald, did you want a cookie?"

    Had that happened, I would probably be in the back of a patrol car right now, having been Baker acted by my boss for dropping to my knees and screaming "Khaleesi!" at my monitor.
    posted by Mooski at 10:13 AM on September 16, 2016 [26 favorites]


    So that's a long seeming digression, but I've been thinking about that scene for a while now in relation to this election. Except Trump is the "victim" (except he's getting stronger and stronger, not weaker), and the people who have seen through him are the Soul Hunter, and the media is the "rescuer." We keep trying to tell the media they're being used, but they can't understand it in the context - all they see is the bright shiny of Trump.

    Favorited for the tortured anecdote, but I do want to point out that the media aren't trying to rescue anyone, and that B5 was already about the rise of fascism explicitly, rather than through Trekkian alien lenses. (The episode with the reporters spinning events on the station wildly after they broke with Earthgov is a much better take on the current media situation.)
    posted by mordax at 10:14 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Had that happened, I would probably be in the back of a patrol car right now, having been Baker acted by my boss for dropping to my knees and screaming "Khaleesi!" at my monitor.

    Hers would have been the face that launched a thousand .gifs.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 10:16 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Fair points, mordax, and I will try to find more applicable moments to torture in the future
    posted by nubs at 10:18 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    No matter how shitty and insincere it was, he backed down. Clinton should be touting how her deplorables speech got him to admit it. He'll double down and make this even worse for himself.
    posted by chris24 at 10:18 AM on September 16, 2016 [32 favorites]


    Fair points, mordax, and I will try to find more applicable moments to torture in the future

    For what it's worth, I would remove Donald Trump's soul early if I (a) had the technology to do so and (b) believed he had one.
    posted by mordax at 10:21 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    NYTimes - One Beneficiary of Clinton’s Complex Tax Plan: Tax Lawyers

    The article itself is kinda meh. But, as a tax lawyer reading that headline, I was like "wow, Clinton really is good at this pandering thing."
    posted by melissasaurus at 10:21 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    The stage collapsing is the perfect symbol for the Trump presidency.
    posted by drezdn at 10:23 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    So to be clear, the same news directors who so "courageously" got on a conference call and voted to delete footage of a Trump Hotels infomercial (because a damn producer wasn't allowed to tag along, not because it's, well, an infomercial for a hotel rather than anything relevant to a Presidential campaign) are the ones who are in charge of the networks that just got suckered into providing 30+ minutes of live coverage for a one minute speech? Color me unimpressed.
    posted by zachlipton at 10:23 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Honestly, Clinton should find ways to imply that [thing she did] caused [thing he did] constantly. Even if transparently untrue, it would upset Trump so much that he'd be more likely to make mistakes.

    Which she could then take credit for, thus causing it to become true.
    posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:24 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Apparently Trump once bet $5 million dollars that Obama wasn't born in the US.
    posted by drezdn at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2016


    The stage collapsing is the perfect symbol for the Trump presidency.

    Also a perfect summary for Trump's hotel construction standards.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    A smattering of Qs and As from Al Giordano's Ask Me Anything session on Twitter all revolving around a certain theme:
    @AlGiordano
    How much does media bias influence election result? Its the only thing causing me real concern.

    Al Giordano @AlGiordano
    Great question! Media has 1/10th of the influence of field organizing. Knock on ten doors, beat 100 media reporters!
    -
    @AlGiordano will it be over/under 300 EV's for HRC?

    Al Giordano @AlGiordano

    That's up to you and how many phone calls you make.
    -
    @AlGiordano why do you think the MSM is so petrified of asking Trump any substantial question?

    Al Giordano @AlGiordano
    I suspect he has more closet allies in the media than they admit. Destroy them by signing up for canvassing.
    -
    @AlGiordano How much will Trump underperform polling due to total lack of ground game?

    Al Giordano @AlGiordano
    That's up to you and whether you are really part of this "ground game."
    posted by palindromic at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2016 [23 favorites]


    Baby steps, zachlipton, baby steps. You can't teach news directors to direct news all at once.
    posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:25 AM on September 16, 2016


    maxsparber: He has emboldened racists to the point that they are going to push themselves to be the very public face of his campaign, and, honestly, there was a time when you could count on the racist vote to push your campaign across the top, but nowadays it is counterproductive.

    And Hillary is emboldened to call him a bigot, point blank. "Basket of deplorables" set-up keeps paying off.


    kythuen: I know it's because they're really upset about a producer being physically restrained from participating in the tour -- but I'm really pleased to see a major news outlet more mainstream than MSNBC finally expressing some outrage over Trump's behavior. Even if it is of the "now it's personal!" variety.

    Finally the press is taking Trump's threats to the press seriously. FINALLY. But as Ashley Feinberg wrote on Deadspin "This morning was absolutely insane. I can’t wait for all of us to forget this ever happened in a few hours."


    Slap*Happy: Metafilter: Donald Trump is the grim foreboding of serious injury

    I think you mean Donald Trump: the grim foreboding of serious injury (I'm not sure where MetaFilter fits in that statement, TBH).
    posted by filthy light thief at 10:26 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Which she could then take credit for, thus causing it to become true.

    Trumpception.
    posted by chris24 at 10:26 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    The stage collapsing is the perfect symbol for the Trump presidency candidacy (Cthulhu willing).
    posted by Atom Eyes at 10:26 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    I don't think that Epstein/Trump rape thing is going to go anywhere unless the person in question offers some kind of proof that they actually exist.

    It certainly has some hallmarks of a rat-fucking operation, but hey, the pre-trail conference was recently delayed to ... October.
    posted by Doktor Zed at 10:27 AM on September 16, 2016


    Dear Wordshore, PLEASE do an FPP about village fetes and the prizes awarded therein. Cheer us up a bit.

    Done; it's quite a large one so I hope you can handle it.
    posted by Wordshore at 10:27 AM on September 16, 2016 [18 favorites]


    For what it's worth, I would remove Donald Trump's soul early if I (a) had the technology to do so and (b) believed he had one.

    Now I'm having flashbacks to the "would you travel back in time and kill baby Hitler" moment from the primaries.
    posted by nubs at 10:27 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Treating that two-bit Mussolini wannabe like he's just another celebrity is super-gross and helps to normalize him, to build an image of him as benign. That is a terrible and blameworthy thing.

    I wouldn't do it, but I think it's such a minor issue that some entertainers are not political, and I only have so much energy to devote to outrage. I think it's silly to hang it on Maddow that her response wasn't the same as yours. This is trivial stuff, and in a way it illustrates why many people want to avoid any kind of politics in public, or politics altogether. This is much more about tribalism than substance. Later, if we're in the camps together, you can hold it against me, ok?
    posted by krinklyfig at 10:29 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    True, zachlipton, but the media response I expected was more along the lines of rolling over and showing their bellies. It's nice to see a little backbone where none had previously been suspected.

    I don't know who this reporter is, who was just on CNN, but I think she's trying to start a narrative. She's been on about what's wrong with Trump for the whole hour, and just corrected a guy from WashPo who said Trump's statement had "errors". "Errors -- you mean lies, right?"

    Of course it's now Wolf's turn, so I'm probably headed back to my bomb shelter as soon as I finish my lunch.
    posted by kythuen at 10:31 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Just got my new iPhone 7+ with the fastest single threaded performance ever on a phone and 3GB of RAM.

    BRING THE THREAD ON!
    posted by Talez at 10:31 AM on September 16, 2016 [28 favorites]


    Comments like these and like what Clara Jeffrey tweeted yesterday are so frustrating. Keep in mind that the 18-29 demo has the highest support for Hillary and the lowest support for Trump out of all of the age demographics. God forbid if she doesn't win, maybe we can blame the older age demographics that supported her less than the young people, instead of blaming young people for supporting her more than anyone else but not enough to overcome the older people who didn't support her yet aren't being blamed for it.

    I'm sympathetic to this viewpoint, and as a Gen X-er who worries that his generation will fall into the same trap the boomers did of abandoning progressive ideals as we get older in favor of tax cuts and other forms of generational warfare, I am doing my best to not be part of this problem.

    However, it seems to me the Clinton vs. Trump numbers are primarily a reflection of the fact that younger voters skew more toward the liberal side of the spectrum. We would expect, all else being equal, for younger voters to support the Democratic nominee more than they support the Republican nominee. What we don't expect, and what is troubling, is that the generations that seem to be most on board with progressive ideals are willing to sacrifice those ideals for the chance to vote for a protest candidate when their votes could actually be fighting against the conservative leanings of the older generations.

    This conservative skew is a lot harder to fight against, because with someone voting for Stein, the ideology is (or should be) at least in the same ballpark as that advanced by Hillary and the Democratic party, and, at a minimum, these voters should be informed enough to understand their responsibility to reduce harm by voting for the candidate that most advances their interests among those candidates who can possibly win. There is also the inconvenient truth that these older generations are, well, older, and thus can be expected to have more deeply-held beliefs and to be more resistant to changing them.

    So I think it's a mixture. Glibly blaming the snake people for the fact that the polls are close is wrong, but so is a response that says "well, we support Clinton more than y'all do." Of course you do, but some of your cohort support those same ideals but are betraying them to vote as a consumer instead of as a citizen.
    posted by tonycpsu at 10:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    There will be no threads in Trumperica, Talez; keep your receipt!
    posted by kythuen at 10:35 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    So Will Trump Follow Through On His $5 Million Birther Charity Promise?

    David Fahrenthold, once again, is on it.
    posted by zachlipton at 10:35 AM on September 16, 2016 [28 favorites]


    drezdn: Apparently Trump once bet $5 million dollars that Obama wasn't born in the US.

    Trump offered to give $5 million to the charity of Obama’s choice if the president publicly releases his college transcripts from Columbia, Harvard and Occidental College, as well as his passport records. The Guardian flipped the question: Donald Trump wants Barack Obama to publish his college and passport records but won't reveal his own.
    "I tell you what, he'll provide them to you when you provide yours to him," said Michael Cohen, executive vice president at the Trump Organization and special counsel to Trump, in what began as a friendly encounter.
    Who supports Donald Trump? The new Republican center of gravity
    Read more

    I readily agreed to the deal, and offered to provide my college records and passport-application records to the Trump office for inspection. That seemed to prompt a change of heart.

    "But what's your point? Mr Trump's not the president of the United States and he's not running for the presidency," Cohen said. "And pretty much all you need to do is go to one of the thousand different books that Mr Trump has been featured in or has written and so on, and you could learn more about him than you know about pretty much anybody on the planet."
    ...
    Cohen went on to accuse the Guardian of not taking the story seriously. (Nothing, of course, could be further from the truth.)
    And then Bill Maher offered Trump $5 million to give to a charity of his choice if Trump proved he was not the “spawn” of an orangutan, which Trump did, and then he sued Maher for not following through on the bet.

    The delicious irony of Trump, actually running for president, a mere 4 years later. And by delicious, I mean terrible, ugly truth that Trump was willing to pull this ugly garbage back out for ... attention? To give TV cameras a tour of his hotel? He's not doing it to bolster support.
    posted by filthy light thief at 10:35 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Hillary is on a tweet storm right now.
    posted by Talez at 10:37 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    There's also a lot of noise from blogs about Trump offering $1 to $5 million for proof of Obama's birth records back in 2012, and Obama turning down $500 million for his birth certificate, but I can't find "reputable" news articles on this at this time.
    posted by filthy light thief at 10:39 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I love that the tweet Clinton has pinned says "What Trump just did is a disgrace." and it's from 45mins ago, but could just stay pinned there for all eternity and never be wrong.
    posted by melissasaurus at 10:43 AM on September 16, 2016 [44 favorites]


    So Will Drumpf Follow Through On His $5 Million Birther Charity Promise?

    David Fahrenthold, once again, is on it.

    Good Christ but I am so in love with David Fahrenthold right now.
    posted by holborne at 10:45 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    I, too, have developed a huge man-crush on Fahrenthold. I wish we could clone him.
    posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:47 AM on September 16, 2016


    Charles Pierce: The Birtherism of a Nation:
    Trump knows that his whole political persona is built on his racist campaign to delegitimize the first African-American president. That was one of the foundation stones of the racist and xenophobic campaign that has brought him as far as he is right now. The other foundation stone is his dead-bang certainty that Donald J. Trump is the smart one, and everybody else, especially the people supporting him, is stupid.

    Look at that statement. Its contempt for the truth is matched only by its contempt for the people at whom it was directed.
    posted by palindromic at 10:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    @AdamSerwer: Trump fanned a racist conspiracy for five years, lied and said someone else was at fault, then lied and said he "ended" the controversy.

    And quelle surprise, , the NYT fell for it. So did the AP.

    Also:
    @DavidCornDC: So Trump just conned media to give him free coverage of a birther general (McInerney) praising Trump.
    I wonder if this even makes it to the media's messaging, let alone as a major part of the story.


    Hot Takes! Gitcher Hot Takes Heah!
    • CNN  Trump finally admitted . . . reversing himself . . . longstanding attempt . . .
    • Politico Trump concedes . . . no longer believes . . . breaking away from a conspiracy theory . . .
    • Washington Post  Trump admits . . but falsely blames Clinton . . . acknowledged for the first time . . . ending his long history of stoking unfounded doubts about the nation's first African-American president . . .
    • New York Times Trump Retreats . . .
    • usa today finally says . . . [but] blames Clinton . . . seeking to bury an issue he has used repeatedly the past five-and-a-half years to appeal to ultra-conservative audiences . . .
    • New York Times Unwinding a Lie: Donald Trump and Birtherism
    • Daily Beast Trump Tells the Truth About Obamas Birth to Lie About Hillary . . . finally ended years of lies . . . one more fib in about Hillary Clinton . . . finally concedes . . . after years of promoting conspiracy theory . . .
    • Los Angeles Times  Trump finally concedes . . . after years of promoting conspiracy theory . . . has stoked unfounded conspiracies . . .
    • The Atlantic Unrepentant Trump Finally Acknowledges Obama as American . . .
    • The Hill 20 minutes of veterans who support Trump . . . When Trump finally spoke about the issue his campaign had promoted, he was brief. “Hillary Clinton started . . . "
    • Slate Magazine Trump . . . Lies About Hillary Starting Birther Movement
    • New York Daily News  Trump finally admits . . .
    • Wall Street Journal Trump . . . After Years of Sowing Doubt . . . for the first time conceded . . . standing down from years of false accusations . . .
    • NBC News Trump Finally Admits . . . conceded . . . falsely blamed Hillary Clinton for starting rumors . . . Thirty minutes into event . . . .
    • U.S. News & World Report Trump Lies in Walking Back His Birther Lies
    • Chicago Tribune Trump uses veterans as cover while he lies . . .
    • The Hindu Trump, who was one of the leaders of the "birther” movement . . .
    • Politico  Clinton: Trump owes both Obama and the American people an apology . . . No matter what Donald Trump says now . . . will not be able to undo what he has already wrought . . .
    • Fox News . . . after new 'birther' dust-up . . . tried to tamp down a newly revived campaign dust-up . . . declaring the president was born in the United States – “period” – after declining to make that statement earlier this week.
    posted by Herodios at 10:50 AM on September 16, 2016 [23 favorites]


    So I think it's a mixture. Glibly blaming the snake people for the fact that the polls are close is wrong, but so is a response that says "well, we support Clinton more than y'all do." Of course you do, but some of your cohort support those same ideals but are betraying them to vote as a consumer instead of as a citizen.

    A couple of things here:
    1. It isn't even "my" cohort, I'm just weary of millennial-punching in its many forms, especially when it's used as a distraction to avoid discussing the people actually more to blame for something
    2. You said something that reveals part of the inherent problem in many Clinton surrogates' approach to the Youngs lately: the 18-29 demo supports Clinton more than other demographics - "Of course you do." I mean, you're right that younger people skew more liberal but that doesn't translate to "of course they support Clinton." Seriously, don't just take them for granted. If you think more should be enthusiastically supporting Clinton, maybe it would be a good idea for her campaign to do something that appeals to them instead of chasing endorsements from Republican generals and Bush 2.0 admin officials and the rest of her recent efforts to win over the mythical Rational Moderate Republican demo. The polls confirm what leftists have been saying since the convention: that's a stupid strategy that isn't going to work (it hasn't).
    posted by cobra_high_tigers at 10:54 AM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Isn't she supposed to be giving a speech specifically directed to Millennials on Monday?
    posted by rabbitrabbit at 10:56 AM on September 16, 2016


    (A post of mine in a MetaTalk thread from like this week just got a Favorite from Tehhund 15 minutes ago. Who told Tehhund that they could leave the trail of election posts?!)
    posted by wenestvedt at 10:59 AM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]


    Clinton: Trump owes both Obama and the American people an apology

    Debate Gold.
    posted by mikelieman at 10:59 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]




    So, apparently there is a level beyond Pants On Fire - Full Flop.
    posted by NoxAeternum at 11:00 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Asked if she is a birther: "No. If Trump says Obama was born in America he was. Whatever Trump says is true."
    THESE PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO EXIST. It blows my fucking mind.
    posted by Talez at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    (I'm concerned, or perhaps just relieved, that Tehhund may skip over all the cookies we left behind as encouragement in past threads.)
    posted by zachlipton at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    do - wha

    am i in love with mark cuban now?
    posted by Tevin at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Believe it or not, folks, there are millennials who are....wait for it....white men without college degrees. Youth doesn't inoculate someone against racism and sexism.
    posted by melissasaurus at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I'm just weary of millennial-punching . . .

    Dividing people up into groups, labeling them, and getting them to 'punch' each other is how the bad guys win.
     
    posted by Herodios at 11:01 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    am i in love with mark cuban now?

    No, it's just closing time and he looks relatively good.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:04 AM on September 16, 2016 [37 favorites]


    Mark Cuban is really redeeming himself in this election. I mean, I'll still never watch Shark Tank, and he's still pretty douchey, but I love how much he hates that some fake billionaire is running for president and making billionaires everywhere look worse.
    posted by dis_integration at 11:06 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]




    maybe it would be a good idea for her campaign to do something that appeals to them instead of chasing endorsements from Republican generals and Bush 2.0 admin officials and the rest of her recent efforts to win over the mythical Rational Moderate Republican demo.

    Jesus H fucking Christ on a popsicle stick. This is at the very least the most liberal presidential campaign since Johnson 1965, and probably since FDR 1932, and there's a reasonable shot of "most liberal ever" though you'd have to argue about what that meant in 1832 etc.

    I mean, for fuck's sake, what has Clinton offered liberal young millennials? How about student loan relief? How about justices and/or a constitutional amendment undoing Citizens United? How about an increased minimum wage? How about 90-whatever percent of what they were saying was making them so excited about Sanders, and that vast, overwhelming chunk of that was SHIT SHE HAS ALWAYS VOCALLY SUPPORTED.

    On the flipside, what are the sinister, evil, right wing corporate promises she's made to win over those mythical moderates? "I'm not a crazy person," and fuck-all else.

    I mean, really. I'm trying not to be pissed off about this kind of shit, but really. If you are looking at this campaign and seeing some sort of centrist Republican-lite thing, that shit is on you because it just fucking isn't. Like, objective fucking fact, the moon is not made of cheese, it just isn't so. At some fucking point it's on you to pull the scales from your own fucking eyes, because God doesn't seem to be doing it this time. Fuck.
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:08 AM on September 16, 2016 [115 favorites]


    I can't figure out whether Russ Hanneman would support Trump or not.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 11:08 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    The National Fraternal Order of Police has endorsed Trump

    Who says there's a systemic racial problem with police departments in this country.
    posted by Roommate at 11:09 AM on September 16, 2016 [63 favorites]


    Mark Cuban is really redeeming himself in this election. I mean, I'll still never watch Shark Tank, and he's still pretty douchey, but I love how much he hates that some fake billionaire is running for president and making billionaires everywhere look worse.

    I'm pretty sure Cuban wants to run for office himself (Gov or Pres). This is nothing but self promotion for 2020. But for now, I'll take all the help we can get.
    posted by melissasaurus at 11:10 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    millennial-punching in its many forms, especially when it's used as a distraction to avoid discussing the people actually more to blame for something

    There is no agreed-upon objective measure of who's more to blame, and it doesn't help to pretend that there is in order to silence someone's criticism. What I'm saying is that older generations deserve blame for tending to become more conservative as they get older -- call it selling out, abandoning their ideals, selfishly looking out for their own interests, whatever -- but also that people who can credibly call themselves "leftists" undoubtedly have far more to gain from Hillary's election than Trump's, and they deserve blame for not recognizing that. Hillary also deserves blame for sometimes being dragged kicking and screaming toward articulating her progressivism, but one does not get to disclaim any responsiblity for the outcome just because she didn't market herself to their exact specifications of what a true leftist is or ought to be.

    You said something that reveals part of the inherent problem in many Clinton surrogates' approach to the Youngs lately: the 18-29 demo supports Clinton more than other demographics - "Of course you do." I mean, you're right that younger people skew more liberal but that doesn't translate to "of course they support Clinton

    If you're going to use the fact that snake people support Hillary more than they support Trump to inoculate them against criticism for not rallying behind the Democratic nominee, then I don't see how you can say I'm being presumptuous by saying that the more liberal generations should be expected to vote in larger numbers for the more liberal candidate on nearly every issue. That's what Hillary is in this election, and self-styled "leftists" who ignore that in favor of protest votes are part of the problem, just as the other factors you mention are.
    posted by tonycpsu at 11:12 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I worked for Mark Cuban back before he was a gazillionaire. He's a pretty great dude from a working class Pittsburgh family. I like Mark a lot. (I've never seen shark tank, and care not for sports, so I've no idea what public persona he's created.)
    posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:12 AM on September 16, 2016 [19 favorites]


    Who says there's a systemic racial problem with police departments in this country.

    My position that all police unions should be dismantled as unsalvagably corrupt remains unchanged.
    posted by Artw at 11:12 AM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    ROU_Xenophobe, bravo.
    posted by chris24 at 11:12 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Millennials overwhelmingly support Clinton, and Clinton seems to heartily embrace their support. Why do we need to have a proxy war here when the two sides aren't even opposed?
    posted by parallellines at 11:16 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    People under 45 are not the problem. The problem is white people over 50 who have lost their minds and are pushing for Trump.
    posted by humanfont at 11:20 AM on September 16, 2016 [21 favorites]


    Millennials overwhelmingly support Clinton

    True, but the issue is that there is a not insignificant number of millennials who support Clinton's policies that are voting Stein, or even more confoundedly, Johnson.

    The problem is white people over 50 who have lost their minds and are pushing for Trump.

    True, which is why PoC, LGBTQ, women and young voters will have to save this country. And why there's such a focus on the young voters who are voting 3rd party.
    posted by chris24 at 11:21 AM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Millennials overwhelmingly support Clinton, and Clinton seems to heartily embrace their support. Why do we need to have a proxy war here when the two sides aren't even opposed?

    Well, we Gen-Xers can't very well yell at our 20-something-year-old selves for supporting Nader back in 2000, now can we? How the fuck else am I supposed to achieve some kind of catharsis??
    posted by Atom Eyes at 11:22 AM on September 16, 2016 [18 favorites]


    > My position that all police unions should be dismantled as unsalvagably corrupt remains unchanged.

    s/unions/departments/g
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:23 AM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    s/unions/departments/g

    I assume this means "replace 'unions' with 'departments'"?
    posted by tivalasvegas at 11:25 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Is there anywhere that is keeping track of Trumps already broken or undelivered promises?

    Tax forms: Promised not delivered.
    Medical Records: Promised not delivered.
    Policy Positions: Promised not delivered.
    Charity Records: Promised not delivered.
    Repealing press blacklist: Promised not delivered

    They guy isn't even an actual leader yet and is already showing so much leadership!
    posted by srboisvert at 11:25 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Nate Silver may have made correct assumptions or he may not have; there's room for discussion and it's hard to tell. The same is true for a number of Wang's assumptions. But fundamentally, Sam Wang's not forecasting win probabilities correctly, and he knows he's not doing it correctly (or at least he knew it in 2008). His method will always underestimate the probability of the lower-polling candidate winning, likely by a significant margin.

    You could plot the relative approval of Wang over Silver on Metafilter, and it would match the gap in their forecast likelihoods of Clinton winning to an eerie extent. It's fascinating; I've never seen epistemic closure in real time in a liberal group before.
    posted by Homeboy Trouble at 9:19 AM on September 16 [5 favorites +] [!]

    The other meta- thing that they've been arguing about is whether or not these predictions should be stable or variable as the polls change, and Silver *seems* to have been right about that as well; the day-to-day polls don't seem to provide data that can output a particularly stable prediction about the November election months in advance.
    posted by gerryblog at 9:34 AM on September 16 [2 favorites +] [!]


    There's really no great way to tell whether Wang or Silver are estimating the variance around their predictions accurately. We will never know if Clinton had a 86% chance of winning on September 16 or a 57% chance. All we'll know is how well they do on election night. Between the actual elections and the primaries over the past decade+, we have a ton of results in that regard. My reading of all the evidence suggests Wang is better at this, but the differences are small, and reasonable people have suggested otherwise. But again, there's really no perfect way to test who is better at predicting probabilities 50 days out.

    However, Wang does provide confidence intervals (I'd probably call them "credible intervals" since he seems to be working in a Bayesian framework), and he tracks them through time. See the grey shaded area in this figure. Note that the black line (his median prediction) hasn't quite fallen outside of his credible intervals. It probably will soon - if it does, that's a slight mark against Wang. However, they represent his more aggressive Bayesian estimate rather than the random drift (and they're 95% not 99%). His random drift model has always had more noise, but he doesn't track it over time. That's the yellow outer areas on the image. Clinton's never had a 100% probability of winning, and she's not really close to slipping below 270, so we can say that his random drift model has been relatively precise.

    Silver neither reports nor tracks the confidence intervals on his predictions.
    posted by one_bean at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    The big difference between Wang's and Silver's forecasts is that Wang assumed the post-convention polling would remain more-or-less the same, while Silver assumed that the Republican candidate would have a natural advantage and polling would tighten or flip over time. It's pretty clear at this point Silver's predictions were correct.

    The other meta- thing that they've been arguing about is whether or not these predictions should be stable or variable as the polls change, and Silver *seems* to have been right about that as well; the day-to-day polls don't seem to provide data that can output a particularly stable prediction about the November election months in advance.


    I think the actual big difference, and the reason I (and 2008 Sam Wang) think that Wang's forecast is fundamentally flawed while Silver's is within reasonable practice is that Wang doesn't treat states as correlated. I'm going to go long here a little because I think there's some relevant technical detail.

    One problem in thinking about forecasts is that there's a lot of sources of uncertainty, and there's a limited vocabulary to talk about that uncertainty. So let's say that we would like to develop our forecast by knowing what all 65 million plus "likely voters" think. We don't and can't know that, but we do have polls that are made from sampling some of these voters. So there's some uncertainty associated with how the small number of voters we do ask translate to the entire population of 65M+ likely voters. Let's call that Type A.

    But here's the thing - it's mid-September, and the election is in early November. So some of the 65M+ likely voters will change their minds or decide on a candidate between now and then; some of the population of 65M+ likely voters on Election Day will have different opinions than the population does today and we definitely don't and can't know about this today. Let's call the uncertainty associated with this Type B. (I think there's a 3rd uncertainty representing the gap between the population of likely voters and the actual ballots cast due to things like GOTV efforts, enthusiasm levels and so on, but I don't think there's any difference in Wang's and Silver's forecasts relative to this Type C uncertainty.)

    Wang's methodology for producing a forecast is a technically correct way of calculating the probability of 51 independent state elections each producing a certain number of electoral votes. Which is sort of "assume a spherical cow" territory in some ways. The key problem is his assumption of independence between state results. (Silver does not have this assumption of uncorrelated changes.)

    As an example, let's say VA has an 80% chance of going for Clinton, while she has a 50% chance of winning NC. There are four possible results; win both VA and NC (80%*50%)=40%, win VA and lose NC 40%, lose both VA and NC (20%*50%)=10% and lose VA but win NC 10%. Wang does this correction correctly with these results.

    In fact, the probabilities of winning VA and NC are tightly correlated; they are adjacent states with similar demographics (NC just a little redder) and many of the events that create uncertainty type B will have the same effect in both; if Trump turns off highly educated white Republican voters or Clinton says she's glad to be out of the south, that will swing both states in a similar way (whereas it may have different effects on say Colorado or Iowa).

    Let's go a little more extreme and imagine they're 100% correlated. In this case, Clinton can't win North Carolina without winning Virginia. This may be an extreme hypothetical, but it's also pretty close to the truth. Now - assuming the same odds of winning each state - the probabilities are 50% that she wins both (every NC win requires a VA win), 20% she loses both (if she doesn't win VA, she can't win NC) and 30% she wins VA but not NC. In this fully correlated model, the odds of a landslide Clinton victory (winning both) rise from 40% to 50%, but the odds of a Trump win (i.e. Clinton losing both) rises from 10% to 20%; his odds of winning just doubled.

    While I don't think that the probabilities are 100% correlated as in my example, they certainly aren't uncorrelated as assumed by Wang, and I think they're much closer to 100% than to 0%. Silver's simulations produce correlations in the 0.75-0.85 range at the high end (MN-WI for example) and in the 0.4-0.5 range at the low end (AL-RI), and those seem reasonable to me. Someone's going to win the first debate, and that's going to change opinions everywhere, for example. In particular, a number of swing states are likely highly correlated with their neighbours - VA/NC, OH/PA, NM/CO/NV/AZ. Not including these correlations means that Wang's model will systematically underrepresent the range of potential outcomes and underrepresent the likelihood of less likely outcomes (both the trailing candidate winning and the leading candidate winning by a landslide).

    At this point, Type B uncertainty (people changing minds/choosing) pretty clearly dwarfs Type A (polling uncertainty) - especially since there are a fair number of pollsters out there and thanks to the magic of statistics. By election night, type B uncertainty will collapse to zero and Wang's model will have become a reasonable prediction of what is going to happen. But two months out, it's fundamentally flawed and fundamentally overconfident in Clinton's chances.
    posted by Homeboy Trouble at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Charles Pierce on Jimmy Fallon:

    Jimmy Fallon is not a journalist, but Jimmy Fallon is a taxpaying American citizen with a minimal obligation to help keep a tyrant from reaching the most powerful position in the world. He failed that obligation last night.
    posted by holborne at 11:31 AM on September 16, 2016 [41 favorites]


    Donald Trump’s New Anti-Abortion Letter Should Terrify You by Rebecca Traister:
    Donald Trump took time out of his busy schedule of conspiracy promotion and disavowal to write a letter to America’s anti-abortion leaders, making some new firm promises about what he’ll do on abortion should he be elected president in 53 days. [...]
    Trump, the Republican nominee for president, then lays out his own series of pledges, promising that he is committed to “nominating pro-life justices to the U.S. Supreme Court,” “signing into law the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act,” which means a ban on abortion after 20 weeks, “defunding Planned Parenthood as long as they continue to perform abortions,” and “making the Hyde Amendment permanent law.”
    posted by melissasaurus at 11:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [22 favorites]


    > I assume this means "replace 'unions' with 'departments'"?

    yes, but stated as a regular expression so as to grant additional cool retro nerdy overtones. the dream of the 90s lives on on mefi.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Joy Reid On Donald Trump’s ‘Birther’ Flip Flops | Andrea Mitchell | MSNBC

    "Who is Donald Trump to ask that question at all?"
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Hey guys, relax. Dick Morris says Trump's strategy is working.
    posted by chris24 at 11:34 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    I mean, for fuck's sake, what has Clinton offered liberal young millennials? ... How about an increased minimum wage?

    All increases are not the same. Clinton supports a $12/hr minimum wage—Sanders supported $15.

    How about 90-whatever percent of what they were saying was making them so excited about Sanders, and that vast, overwhelming chunk of that was SHIT SHE HAS ALWAYS VOCALLY SUPPORTED.

    In the case of the minimum wage, "always" means since November.
    posted by enn at 11:38 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    In the case of the minimum wage, "always" means since November.

    Bullshit, she called for it in her announcement speech in June 2015.
    posted by chris24 at 11:39 AM on September 16, 2016 [36 favorites]


    1. So, no response to all that other stuff Clinton supports?

    2. The fact that she modifies her positions based on what her base vocally supports is bad somehow?
    posted by showbiz_liz at 11:40 AM on September 16, 2016 [31 favorites]


    And since you seem to want to have this argument, I'll repost all the other things she said in her announcement speech.

    1) Called to make college more affordable and reduce student debt
    2) Called for an increase in the minimum wage
    3) Called for a constitutional amendment to repeal Citizen's United
    4) Called for paid family leave
    5) Pledged to maintain and strengthen financial regulations
    6) Pledged to transition more to clean energy
    7) Called for universal automatic voter registration
    posted by chris24 at 11:42 AM on September 16, 2016 [22 favorites]


    While I don't think that the probabilities are 100% correlated as in my example, they certainly aren't uncorrelated as assumed by Wang, and I think they're much closer to 100% than to 0%. Silver's simulations produce correlations in the 0.75-0.85 range at the high end (MN-WI for example) and in the 0.4-0.5 range at the low end (AL-RI), and those seem reasonable to me...

    At this point, Type B uncertainty (people changing minds/choosing) pretty clearly dwarfs Type A (polling uncertainty) - especially since there are a fair number of pollsters out there and thanks to the magic of statistics. By election night, type B uncertainty will collapse to zero and Wang's model will have become a reasonable prediction of what is going to happen. But two months out, it's fundamentally flawed and fundamentally overconfident in Clinton's chances.


    Wang's assumption is that voters don't change their mind as much as people think they do. Especially in this election, it's really hard to imagine a ton of people saying they're going to vote for Clinton and then saying "eh, actually, Trump seems better." I think what's happening - and Wang is sort of pointing to this, too - is that there's been a higher number of unsure Republican voters, and a lot of them are coming home to Trump right now. But otherwise, most people aren't going to change their mind. He's backed that up with a couple of analyses about variability over previous elections, and he's pretty clear about why he does that. He switched a few months ago to use variance from just the previous 30 years or something rather than 60, which may end up being a mistake. But he's open about it.
    posted by one_bean at 11:42 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    In the case of the minimum wage, "always" means since November.

    That's a tiny bit disingenuous - I got quotes from her on raising the minimum wage from back in 2014, and that's only 'cause I can't find dates on the earlier stuff. The argument about 12 vs 15 is creating a rift where none exists.
    posted by Mooski at 11:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Posted again for posterity, emphasis mine:

    (sorry, this is my first election mefi thread.)

    Please commit this list of permanently litigated topics to memory:

    Emails
    Servers
    Infosec
    Corbs personal political views
    Any other thread participant's personal political views
    Infosex (long story)
    The Crusades
    A racist thing some guy on the street said
    A racist thing some Bernie bro on Facebook said
    Diagnosis: Murder
    Non-edible uses of cheese
    Regional slang

    Bernie vs Hillary

    Obama vs Hillary
    Stein vs Hillary
    Bill vs Hillary
    HRC vs Hillary
    Killary vs Chillary
    Drones
    Any election after 1992
    Evens in which you can
    posted by Tevin at 11:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    The question was why millennials—the demographic to whom the minimum wage is most important—might want more from Clinton than she's offered. ROU_Xenophobe's claim was that her positions and Sanders's are substantially the same. In this important case, they're very different, and contrary to the claim, her position has not been her position "forever."
    posted by enn at 11:44 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Homeboy Trouble, you keep saying that Sam Wang knows that his model is fundamentally flawed. He seems like a pretty reasonable and empirical guy who isn't driven by a profit motive. Why would he continue to publish and promote a model that he doesn't believe in?
    posted by diogenes at 11:46 AM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    On the flipside, what are the sinister, evil, right wing corporate promises she's made to win over those mythical moderates? "I'm not a crazy person," and fuck-all else.

    Politico: Clinton's GOP supporters expect something in return. Honestly, it's naive to expect otherwise.
    posted by dialetheia at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    As Senator Hillary Clinton co-sponsored 7 bills to raise the minimum wage. She also supported a rule that would have barred congressional pay increases without raising the minimum wage.
    posted by humanfont at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [33 favorites]


    I guess my point is, if you want to whine about about why millennials are "only" supporting Clinton more strongly than any other age cohort, and not as strongly as some hypothetical, superior generation which doesn't exist might support her, maybe you might want to pay attention to the policy differences between her platform and that of the candidate who generated more millennial enthusiasm. But you can just stick your fingers in your ears and deny that those differences exist and whine some more too about how entitled your candidate is to their votes, that's cool too I guess.
    posted by enn at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    The question was why millennials—the demographic to whom the minimum wage is most important—might want more from Clinton than she's offered.

    Wanting more than what a candidate has offered on an issue is not equivalent to a justification for not voting for that candidate when what they are offering is better on that same issue, and also most other issues.
    posted by tonycpsu at 11:49 AM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    whine some more too about how entitled your candidate is to their votes

    She wasn't my candidate. I voted for Sanders. She's my candidate now, and she should be the candidate of any other Sanders voter, as Bernie himself has said in no uncertain terms.
    posted by tonycpsu at 11:52 AM on September 16, 2016 [25 favorites]


    But you can just stick your fingers in your ears and deny that those differences exist and whine some more too about how entitled your candidate is to their votes, that's cool too I guess.

    And you can vote to enable someone who's said they'd eliminate the minimum wage. That's cool too.
    posted by chris24 at 11:53 AM on September 16, 2016 [19 favorites]


    The polls confirm what leftists have been saying since the convention: that's a stupid strategy that isn't going to work (it hasn't).

    Yup. I apologize if it's been linked before but Rick Perlstein took a very critical view of that GOP rehabilitation effort in this article: Hillary's Reckless Offramp Strategy:

    But what’s the harm? Don’t right-wing grifters’ votes count the same as horny-handed tillers of the soil? Won’t the news that famous Republicans are breaking for Hillary help ordinary Republicans stomach the switch, too? It’s not like Glassman is going to be her treasury secretary. Democrats have an election to win, and it’s less than two months away—doesn’t Team Clinton want to pile up as many supporters as it possibly can?

    The flaw in this argument is that it overlooks something: the potential problems come in the longer term. Large numbers of supporters of only glancing or provisional commitment to your governing agenda, shoehorned into your tent in time for Election Day, can become quite the liability for effectuating that agenda when it comes time to govern.

    posted by dialetheia at 11:54 AM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    And you can vote to enable someone who's said they'd eliminate the minimum wage. That's cool too.

    1. I'm voting for Clinton, of course.
    2. This thread started with a comment about millennials who are voting for Stein and how Clinton is owed their votes. It would surprise me if Stein plans to eliminate the minimum wage.
    posted by enn at 11:55 AM on September 16, 2016


    I was under the impression that most millennials who don't support Clinton aren't not supporting her because of their disappointment over marginal differences in things like minimum wage policy, but because they've bought into the narrative that she is corrupt and untrustworthy and out for personal enrichment and a secret conservative etc etc etc

    But rehashing these arguments from a more innocent time (March) is fun; let's do vote-shaming next
    posted by prize bull octorok at 11:55 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Mod note: Y'all, its okay to just disagree about something that's been argued to death in previous threads and leave it at that—at "we disagree, then"—and not drag the thread around on the basis of that disagreement continuing to exist. After a couple of backs-and-forth and re-explaining your position, just go ahead and drop it.
    posted by cortex (staff) at 11:55 AM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Anybody who is absolutely stuck on the $15 minimum wage issue should just vote for Stein.

    And they should also keep in mind that she is polling below a dead gorilla in the race for President.
    posted by zakur at 11:56 AM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    What I'm saying is that older generations deserve blame for tending to become more conservative as they get older

    For anyone under their mid 20's; I've got a surprise for you in about 30 years.
    posted by bongo_x at 11:58 AM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    So, apparently there is a level beyond Pants On Fire - Full Flop.

    After at least 5 years.

    So elect Trump and he might eventually get something right when he is no longer president.
    posted by srboisvert at 11:59 AM on September 16, 2016


    2. This thread started with a comment about millennials who are voting for Stein and how Clinton is owed their votes. It would surprise me if Stein plans to eliminate the minimum wage.

    She won't ever be President, so what she believes is 100% irrelevant to the election.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 12:00 PM on September 16, 2016 [23 favorites]


    Breitbart's hot take on the birther statement is: "Didja see Trump rick-roll the press SO HARD just now? And the Clinton News Network is falling for it!"
    posted by RobotVoodooPower at 12:02 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    So elect Trump and he might eventually get something right when he is no longer president.

    Only by negative integer overflow.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 12:02 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Breitbart's hot take on the birther statement is: "Didja see Trump rick-roll the press SO HARD just now? And the Clinton News Network is falling for it!"

    Breitbart: By Trolls, For Trolls
    posted by Strange Interlude at 12:04 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]



    Breitbart's hot take on the birther statement is: "Didja see Trump rick-roll the press SO HARD just now? And the Clinton News Network is falling for it!"


    Followed by a picture of Harambe. [real]

    Also, the Fraternal Order of Police just endorsed Trump, not surprisingly.
    posted by melissasaurus at 12:04 PM on September 16, 2016


    For anyone under their mid 20's; I've got a surprise for you in about 30 years.

    Do we really become more conservative with age? (UK)

    It's possible that it’s not a person’s age that is important, but rather which generation they belong to. Older generations of voters, who were brought up in different circumstances to younger voters, could vote differently as a result [...] It is very difficult to tell whether it is getting older, or being born at a certain time, that causes people to have different political preferences.

    Busting Myth, People Turn More Liberal With Age (US)

    By comparing surveys of various age groups taken over a span of more than 30 years, sociologists found that in general, Americans' opinions veer toward the liberal as they grow older [...] People might find an average 60-year-old to be more conservative than an average 30-year-old, Danigelis said, but beware of extrapolating a trend. The older person, for example, might have started off even more conservative than he or she is now.

    I would love it if this insulting meme that young liberals will grow up and change their foolish little minds vanished forever, thanks
    posted by showbiz_liz at 12:05 PM on September 16, 2016 [51 favorites]


    It's National Guacamole Day.
    posted by erisfree at 12:06 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Um, am I taking this the wrong way, or is Breitbart being super fucking racist with that picture of Harambe?
    posted by stolyarova at 12:06 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    You are not taking it the wrong way.
    posted by melissasaurus at 12:08 PM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    Nope, you're taking it exactly right.
    posted by chris24 at 12:09 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Breitbart's hot take on the birther statement is: "Didja see Trump rick-roll the press SO HARD just now? And the Clinton News Network is falling for it!"

    Followed by a picture of Harambe. [real]


    Link to an image of the home page
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:09 PM on September 16, 2016


    Busting Myth, People Turn More Liberal With Age

    I have gotten much more liberal with age, as most people I know. But here we are in 2016, so I have to question my anecdotal evidence.
    posted by bongo_x at 12:11 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    It's National Guacamole Day.

    Superplin for the Guacamole Day parade guest of honor.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 12:11 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]




    > I would love it if this insulting meme that young liberals will grow up and change their foolish little minds vanished forever, thanks

    Look I understand this probably comes off in firmly "humblebrag" territory but I am 32, I grew up firmly conservative, semi-poor household, grew up, got a degree, a job, financial/wealth and I am the most liberal I have been in my life and openly advocated for programs that would cost me more money but be a public good.

    Like, this is probably the point where I should turn the corner to cling to my money but I'm not a greedy asshole so no, thank you, I'm not going become a Republican because I got mine.
    posted by Tevin at 12:14 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    I have gotten much more liberal with age, as most people I know. But here we are in 2016, so I have to question my anecdotal evidence.

    I've gotten more liberal. When you grow up you know life's shit unless you're part of the upper echelon of society. The difference I suppose is whether you want to try and make it better or make people suffer with you.
    posted by Talez at 12:14 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    s/unions/departments/g

    I assume this means "replace 'unions' with 'departments'"?
    posted by tivalasvegas


    Yes, it's from a Unix command called 'sed'.
    posted by ZeusHumms at 12:14 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    If anybody else needs a palate cleanser, Michelle Obama is stumping for HRC right now. <3
    posted by stolyarova at 12:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    my dad is 77, a marine, and more well-off now than at any point earlier in his life, and he's probably more liberal than I am.
    posted by prize bull octorok at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Breitbart's hot take on the birther statement is: "Didja see Trump rick-roll the press SO HARD just now? And the Clinton News Network is falling for it!"

    Followed by a picture of Harambe. [real]


    My fantasy question for Trump: "does it bother you that Bannon is a massively racist bag of dicks, no, bag of holding of dicks, who ran a news organisation populated by said dicks, you massively racist piece of shit?"

    It is at this point I might have to conclude I have a partisan view against racists.
    posted by jaduncan at 12:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    I have gotten much more liberal with age, as most people I know. But here we are in 2016, so I have to question my anecdotal evidence.

    And are we actually, as a country, trending conservative? Are we more conservative than we were in the 80s and 90s? Despite everything that's happening now, I just don't see it. Conservatives are angrier now, but there aren't more of them, because if there were, there wouldn't have been an Obama.
    posted by showbiz_liz at 12:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Is it so unbelievable, then, that Hillary herself may have gotten more liberal as she's aged?

    Or that, in listening to citizens and Millennials across the country, she (gasp) changed her position to a more progressive one?

    Why do Millennials hold that against her?
    posted by Dashy at 12:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    bongo_x: "I have gotten much more liberal with age..."

    Me, three.

    At age twelve I hand-lettered the newsletter (called "TAR Paper") masthead for the Minnesota Teen-Age Republicans group that my older brother was in.

    In the years since then, I listened to the New Testament and read some Thomas Merton and did a bunch of volunteering and had kids, and now I believe in "live and let live" and Mark 12:31 and "be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle."

    (My dad would probably be kind of pissed, but he loves me.)
    posted by wenestvedt at 12:24 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    And are we actually, as a country, trending conservative?

    I don't know, I don't think so, I like to think it's in it's last gasps (Conservatism or the country though is the question). But doesn't every poll from the past show younger people voting more liberal and older people more conservative? Those old people were young once. I don't know how to square that. Young liberals die in off in massive numbers?
    posted by bongo_x at 12:26 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    When I was thirteen, I was listening to Rush Limbaugh and Michael Medved religiously. I was reading Ann Coulter and Dennis Prager.

    Yeah, I'd like to think I've grown up since then. In hindsight - not to pat myself on the back so hard I fall on my face, or anything - I'm horrified that so many people never do.
    posted by stolyarova at 12:27 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    That type of polling hasn't been done forever. Most of the data we have is from the past 50 years, which isn't a long enough period of time to separate out "old people are always and forever conservative" from "people born between [date] and [date] are more likely to be conservative" from "younger people are consistently more liberal, meaning that older people could never change their minds at all from the moment they become politically conscious and would still appear 'more conservative' by default."
    posted by showbiz_liz at 12:29 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I was also a hardcore conservative in middle school/high school.
    posted by drezdn at 12:29 PM on September 16, 2016


    I think it's because there's a not-inconsiderable number of people who consider themselves 'liberal' except and until they feel their privilege eroding. Then its a series of rationalizations and concern trolling that allows them eventually to support someone who will actually harm the country (including them) on the promise of maintaining their social position.
    posted by Mooski at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    I think it's because there's a not-inconsiderable number of people who consider themselves 'liberal' except and until they feel their privilege eroding. Then its a series of rationalizations and concern trolling that allows them eventually to support someone who will actually harm the country (including them) on the promise of maintaining their social position.

    Still funny and sad after all these years.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 12:32 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    You know I'm frustrated by the fact that I cited some poll numbers and i get accused of blaming millenials for trump. That was neither my intent nor, in my understanding, my words
    posted by angrycat at 12:34 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Every election (I promise I do not in any way want to relitigate Clinton v. Sanders or Clinton v. Snake People, I do have a broader point) we do this weird thing where we act like holding one opinion, unchanged, throughout one's entire life, is an unqualified virtue. We call politicians who rethink their previous stances and change them "flip floppers" and mock them, no matter what it was that they actually changed their mind about and why.

    And we call every time a politician identifies a base group of voters and forms a policy that seeks to give them what they want "pandering" no matter who those voters are or what the issue is. I thought that the whole point of us electing people is that they do what we want them to do? It's a problem when a tiny group of elites make these demands as a quid pro quo, but I have no problem with a large voting bloc making a demand and a politician being like, "You know what? I'm on it. If you get me into office, I will definitely do that, even though at other points in my life I didn't have all the facts and hadn't heard all the voices crying out for this, so my position was different. But I hear you now, we're good, let's do this." Isn't that sort of the entire point of a democratic republic?
    posted by soren_lorensen at 12:34 PM on September 16, 2016 [50 favorites]


    From the Michelle Obama speech happening right now: "We need you to roll up your sleeves and get to work... Work your hearts out."

    We're all on the same team right now, folks!
    posted by erisfree at 12:34 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Yeah, I feel like people getting more conservative when they get older is a real thing, not just a slam or slight. It might not appear in things as stark as "now I'm a Republican" but I think it's more a series of choices. Your options seem more limited as you get older, so if you feel privilege eroding, as Mooski says, you might want to try, literally, to conserve what you still have.

    I personally have gotten more liberal as I've gotten older but it doesn't really show up in my voting, because I'm going to vote Democratic every time. The other side has just been unacceptable, especially with social issues.
    posted by zutalors! at 12:34 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    I think it's because there's a not-inconsiderable number of people who consider themselves 'liberal' except and until they feel their privilege eroding. Then its a series of rationalizations and concern trolling that allows them eventually to support someone who will actually harm the country (including them) on the promise of maintaining their social position.

    Yeah, I don't find any of the studies I've seen of this data very satisfying because of this. I grant that it's not nearly as simple as people getting conservative as they get older, but given the racial demographics of these generations, it sure seems to me that older generations got more economically conservative as they got older (Reagan Democrats, the Tea Party demographic, etc.) even if they retain or increase their liberalism on other issues. So many people climbed the latter with liberal economic policy and then have tried to pull it up and dismantle it as they've gotten closer to the top.
    posted by tonycpsu at 12:35 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I just had a thought while doing a jigsaw puzzle.

    Trump's admission that he was wr-
    ...wr...
    ...wro...
    ...wr..
    ...wron...
    ...wrong might just end this election.

    From now until he loses or bails out, every non tame interview is: "You were wrong about Obama being illegitimate...." followed by either questions about him being wrong about birtherism, or examples of other times he was wrong or inconsistent **looking for explanations**.

    Really, he'll be doing a great service for the country if he answers honestly. If he answers all questions put to him honestly, it will end the question and indeed the anger of many Americans. They will know something about Donald J. Trump. Donald J. Trump will become transparent like actual Presidents. A lot of people would be very, very happy.
    posted by mikelieman at 12:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    A smattering of Qs and As from Al Giordano's Ask Me Anything session on Twitter all revolving around a certain theme:

    That's all fine, but Al Giordano is a comic figure who turned a good news site about the drug war into an advertising space for his journalism school and is running an assuredly doomed race for US Senate against Bernie Sanders, so it's odd to see him cited as an authority.

    Also, he carries his possessions in a bindle, wears a barrel held up with suspenders, and is a great threat to apple pies left cooling on Vermont's windowsills.
    posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    But Trump didn't admit he was wrong. He did Obama a favor by urging him to counter Hillary's birther mania with the truth. Get it?
    posted by argybarg at 12:40 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    It's official: CPD Invites Hillary Clinton and Donald J. Trump to Debate
    With the assistance of Dr. Newport, the Board determined that the polling averages called for in the third criterion are as follows: Hillary Clinton (43%), Donald Trump (40.4%), Gary Johnson (8.4%) and Jill Stein (3.2%). Accordingly, Hillary Clinton and her running mate, Tim Kaine, and Donald Trump and his running mate, Mike Pence, qualify to participate in the September 26 presidential debate and the October 4 vice-presidential debate, respectively. No other candidates satisfied the criteria for inclusion in the September 26 and October 4 debates. The criteria will be reapplied to all candidates in advance of the second and third presidential debates.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:41 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Michelle is SO charming and natural at the podium. Glad to have her working for the campaign!
    posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    But doesn't every poll from the past show younger people voting more liberal and older people more conservative? Those old people were young once.

    The goalposts move. Gay marriage, e.g., was a very liberal idea just a decade ago, now it's pretty mainstream.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    So, will Donald Trump release every letter, email, and metadata from all phone calls related to his fraudulent claims against The President of the United States? I don't believe he acted alone, and if this conspiracy extends to foreign nationals, it might extend from libel ("a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation") to sedition. ( "conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state." )
    posted by mikelieman at 12:46 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I'm more conservative than I was in my twenties and early thirties, I've started to realize. I would absolutely have been a Bernie-or-buster when I was 25, and I was a lot more politically active then too.

    Some of it is that I have a more realistic sense of how bad things can get - I was a pretty sheltered person and didn't really understand how important employment, insurance and stable housing were, and felt much freer to put those things on the line or advocate that others should.

    Some of it is that I have more to lose - I have a job that I want to keep, I have a house. Risking it all on revolution isn't attractive because....

    ....some of it is that I am much more cynical about how much change can be achieved - I feel like I've seen so much movement stuff come and go and very little gets accomplished. I've seen so much shitty behavior by mostly-but-by-no-means-exclusively-white radicals that I'm not entirely sure that I want us to lead society. Perhaps we're really better off pressuring at the margins, given who we are.

    Some of it is that I'm getting older and I'm far more worried about staying employed for the next twenty five years than I am worried about many things.

    Some of it is that I no longer believe that people have much in common with each other and common economic interests don't actually do much, and this suggests to me that building any kind of social coalition is really, really hard.

    I really try to keep pinning my hopes on the youth, because maybe I'm wrong and a generation that hasn't been crushed down by twenty years of awful governance may be able to do something new. But the truth is that I feel defeated in a way that I did not twenty years ago.
    posted by Frowner at 12:48 PM on September 16, 2016 [31 favorites]


    If I sound angry, it's because I feel very strongly that five years of public disrespect of the office of The President of the United States is an automatic disqualification of holding that office, and Donald Trump owes this nation and apology, and withdrawal from the election.
    posted by mikelieman at 12:50 PM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    WaPo: Trump’s new hotel offers everything he claims to hate
    He campaigns on an “America First” theme — yet about the only American-made thing I could find in my hotel room was the small package of milk-chocolate Trump gold bullion ($25).

    He portrays himself as a populist friend of the little guy, yet he makes money renting out a presidential suite for $18,000 a night (a sign informed me that the maximum nightly rate for my room was $5,600).

    He derides the “establishment” but makes his living catering to it. The hotel lobby features a Brioni boutique and 3-foot-tall bottles of Veuve Clicquot sharing a bar top with Dom Perignon; the room comes with a copy of Wine Spectator (“The Cheese Issue”); the hotel charges $15 to launder a shirt, $12 for Peanut M&Ms and $26 for a hamburger (sorry, no taco bowls).

    In my room, I found a Trump logo bathmat and towels from India, bone china from Japan, Italian cutlery and tiles, two telephones from Malaysia, a Swiss refrigerator, German coffee cups, Trump soaps and lotions from Canada and, from China, all four lamps, coffee machine, bathroom scale, valet stand and shower cap. The hotel’s managing director is from France. Most hotel workers I met during my stay had Caribbean or African accents.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:50 PM on September 16, 2016 [36 favorites]


    So, will Donald Trump release every letter, email, and metadata from all phone calls related to his fraudulent claims against The President of the United States? I don't believe he acted alone, and if this conspiracy extends to foreign nationals, it might extend from libel ("a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation") to sedition. ( "conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state." )

    The original leader of the birther movement, other than mayyyyybe Jerome Corso, was Orly Taitz, a Soviet (well okay now Moldavian) national, so just go ahead and infer whatever you find most shocking!
    posted by Pope Guilty at 12:50 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    And we call every time a politician identifies a base group of voters and forms a policy that seeks to give them what they want "pandering" no matter who those voters are or what the issue is. I thought that the whole point of us electing people is that they do what we want them to do? It's a problem when a tiny group of elites make these demands as a quid pro quo, but I have no problem with a large voting bloc making a demand and a politician being like, "You know what? I'm on it. If you get me into office, I will definitely do that, even though at other points in my life I didn't have all the facts and hadn't heard all the voices crying out for this, so my position was different. But I hear you now, we're good, let's do this." Isn't that sort of the entire point of a democratic republic?

    I think the issue is not that it is somehow wrong for a politician to act this way or a voter to vote this way, but that it is very difficult to know to what extent a candidate is going to follow through in a transaction of this nature. Campaign promises are proverbially hollow; so as a voter, if candidate A supported my position twenty years ago when it was unpopular and candidate B adopted it during the present election season due to pressure from a strategically-important voting bloc, it is not unreasonable for me to think that candidate A is more likely to continue to fight for this position once the election is done.

    This is also why the hand-wringing about how much voters and the media focus on personalities and not nitty-gritty substantive policy is a bit misplaced. Trying to figure out what actually matters to the candidate is going to be at least as effective in predicting their actions in office as reading policy documents crafted to win an election and then quickly forgotten.
    posted by enn at 12:52 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    When I was a teenager I was a communist. Now I'm a socialist. So. It could go either way, depending on your POV.
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:52 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Michelle is SO charming and natural at the podium. Glad to have her working for the campaign!

    Not only is she charming and an engaging speaker, her ideas are brilliant and focused. She knows her way around Washington and has had administrative experience in the private sector.

    Once we're out of this horrendous mess and Clinton is elected, here's hoping that Michelle steps into politics, possibly beginning with a Senate bid. We'd do very well with a second Obama in the White House.
    posted by Gordion Knott at 12:52 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    It's Assholes all the way down....
    posted by mikelieman at 12:53 PM on September 16, 2016


    WaPo: Trump’s new hotel offers everything he claims to hate:
    There was also symbolism in the naming of the second-floor meeting rooms: Eisenhower, Bush, Roosevelt, Reagan, Wilson, Adams, Kennedy and Jefferson — “Jeff” in the marketing brochure — and, among them, the “DJT Boardroom.”
    posted by kirkaracha at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Once we're out of this horrendous mess and Clinton is elected, here's hoping that Michelle steps into politics, possibly beginning with a Senate bid. We'd do very well with a second Obama in the White House.

    They move to Mass. so that Barack can... I dunno... Something at Harvard Law in his spare time? And Michelle Obama takes Liz Warren's seat when she moves to Treasury Secretary, and can really get shit done.
    posted by mikelieman at 12:55 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Michelle has been super clear she doesn't want to do politics.
    posted by zutalors! at 12:57 PM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    I just hope she continues to be a leader because she's damned good at it, whether she does it through politics or whatever other entity.
    posted by Tevin at 1:00 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Well, I don't *want* to commute to a gig doing software, but we all do what we have to.

    Our Nation *needs* her continued service. She hasn't served *in office*, but she's certainly more than capable.
    posted by mikelieman at 1:01 PM on September 16, 2016


    It's kind of gross to demand that a woman do your bidding.
    posted by cooker girl at 1:02 PM on September 16, 2016 [30 favorites]






    Yeah, I just don't like the "Obamas should do X" stuff. Michelle doesn't want to go into politics. The President doesn't want to do the Supreme Court. They're some of the most deliberate and thoughtful people I've ever seen, I don't see any reason to doubt their word.
    posted by zutalors! at 1:07 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    It will be a mirror.
    posted by palindromic at 1:07 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Blah, Deb deleted the previous tweet - I think he and I both misread it. It was about who should play Trump, not who should play Clinton. Still gross.
    posted by stolyarova at 1:09 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I got a phone call for DCCC soliciting fundraising. I explained I was already plowing money into HFA/DNC, yes, your candidates are very good and, yes, your intentions are noble but that I wasn't going to throw good money after bad at their effort.

    2020 I'll help plow money into state districts with competitive democratic candidates to try and retake the state houses to undo the gerrymandering.
    posted by Talez at 1:11 PM on September 16, 2016


    SLoG kinda buried the lede on that WaPo story about the new Trump hotel:
    ... minutes after my call to housekeeping, a pleasant woman arrived with a copy of “The Glorious Qur’an” in Arabic and English, along with a brown prayer rug and a compass pointing in the “direction of al Kaaba” in Mecca.

    Trump the candidate has talked of banning Muslims from the country and forcing those here to register and submit to surveillance. But Trump the hotelier welcomes Muslims with Korans and prayer rugs.
    posted by achrise at 1:11 PM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]


    Wang's assumption is that voters don't change their mind as much as people think they do. Especially in this election, it's really hard to imagine a ton of people saying they're going to vote for Clinton and then saying "eh, actually, Trump seems better." I think what's happening - and Wang is sort of pointing to this, too - is that there's been a higher number of unsure Republican voters, and a lot of them are coming home to Trump right now. But otherwise, most people aren't going to change their mind. He's backed that up with a couple of analyses about variability over previous elections, and he's pretty clear about why he does that. He switched a few months ago to use variance from just the previous 30 years or something rather than 60, which may end up being a mistake. But he's open about it.

    It's not really about his assumptions in the magnitude of variance. I think his assumptions are reasonable, as are Silver's even though they are different; we honestly don't know a lot about how presidential elections go given that we have only a handful of good comparisons (maybe 15 elections in the polling era, 6 in the current highly partisanized era and 4 in the internet era). The assumption that he's got wrong is the assumption that the variance in one state is independent of the variance in another state, which I think is fundamental.



    Homeboy Trouble, you keep saying that Sam Wang knows that his model is fundamentally flawed. He seems like a pretty reasonable and empirical guy who isn't driven by a profit motive. Why would he continue to publish and promote a model that he doesn't believe in?

    I think he's a good statistician acting like a good statistician, but he's pretty clearly doing this on the side, which is within his rights.

    I think it's why he doesn't do anything to the polling data but take it straight from the HuffPost feed, which makes a series of potentially questionable choices (it omits a number of polls, in particular tracking polls; it reports mostly the 2-way values even though there will be 4+ names on the ballot) and he was sufficiently incurious about the polls that he made a mistake when describing them recently. Which is a reasonable thing for a person doing this on the side; Nate Silver has a budget and a staff to do more with polling data that I think makes their model slightly better. (Garbage in garbage out and all that).

    It's why he doesn't document what he's doing very well (he's published his MATLAB code, which is good, but his website is a palimpsest of old blog posts saying contradictory things - if you click on the win probability link "Bayesian 86%", it goes to a 2012 post with a note from June 2016 at the top amending what he's doing; in fact the current variance is described in an August 2016 blog post that someone who isn't following closely would miss). There is a single page that doesn't contain code but does describe every step in the 538 model, and each state page shows the effects of a number of the steps.

    Returning to the underlying point; I think that he's responding to massive demand for people to have a prediction. I think he's so focused on the details and perceived advantages of his calculation methods that he's minimized the disadvantages. (God, I know I've written papers on methods that do X better, and sure they're not as good at Y but I assure you Y's not really that important.) I think part of it is - as I said - on election night, the problems with ignoring correlations disappear since all the events that cause Type B uncertainty will have happened - and so in the fullness of time his model will perform as well as anybody's. Fundamentally, if I want to assume a motive of a business person, I assume money and if I want to assume a motive for an academic, I assume ego. What academic would resist a chance to have their work disseminated so widely and their conclusions discussed so avidly?
    posted by Homeboy Trouble at 1:11 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    erisfree: It's National Guacamole Day.

    Joey Michaels: Superplin for the Guacamole Day parade guest of honor.

    I will proudly represent Metafilter on such an auspicious occasion, recognizing this culinary gem of Mexico. Guacamole is, indeed, one of the very best immigrants! Just terrific.

    I'd also like to take this opportunity to announce the launch of Superplin Brand Guacamole, in a limited-edition "Campaign Remedy 2016" recipe. Available via one-time mail order purchase or ongoing subscription. Monthly and weekly packages available, as well as the "Xanax-Grade" bundle: one giant bowl per day for the remainder of the election season. For maximum numbing effect, consume with a spoon directly from the container while watching or reading campaign coverage (including Metafilter).

    In these dark days of our republic, I say, "Let them eat guac!"
    smiles and tosses corn chip confetti from her float
    posted by Superplin at 1:12 PM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]


    For maximum numbing effect, consume with a spoon directly from the container while watching or reading campaign coverage (including Metafilter).

    I am doing exactly this right now with a pint of Birthday Cake Halo Top ice cream, but have abused other substances for the past several months as well.

    It doesn't really help. I should try guacamole.
    posted by stolyarova at 1:14 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Politico: Clinton's GOP supporters expect something in return. Honestly, it's naive to expect otherwise.

    Oh, of course they do. Of course they can't just take personal responsibility for having created the situation where Trump is their candidate -- even those who might be half-decent human being outside of politics, even people like Mitt Romney who were happy to be early defectors, they're all folks who were happy to harness, and ride the same impulses that have now fully manifested themselves in Trump. Of course they can't simply accept that supporting Clinton is just a way of partially making that right.

    No, they expect something. They expect Clinton to support their policy goals. They expect Clinton to treat them as well or better than Obama did, all while they expect to treat her exactly as they have the last 25 years, exactly as they've treated Obama, and there is apparently not enough conscience in them to make them pause and wonder if their expectations are reasonable.

    It's moments like these that I'm tempted to wish Clinton and Obama were in fact the monsters that the GOP portrays them as, that enough loopy baseless Glen Beck conspiracies were sufficiently true that more of these people would just disappear.
    posted by wildblueyonder at 1:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    10 ways Trump gives Clinton an opening by re-upping the birtherism issue:
    In other words, he used the promise of explaining a five-year racist controversy to plug his hotel. It is always all about HIM. It might seem oh-so clever, but it really isn’t.

    Let’s count the problems Trump has made for himself.
    posted by kirkaracha at 1:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    onebean: I know that wagers are generally considered gauche on Metafilter, but if there's some way to register the strong odds I would give against this proposition, let this comment be said registration.

    Trump took his first lead ever today in the TPM polling aggregate. The other polling averages still have roughly a 1 point lead for Clinton but that's still dropping, so it's likely they will also cross in the next week or so. Must admit I did think it would take more than 3-4 days for it to happen. The JCPL is near an all time high.

    There's a possibility which I am hoping comes to pass that Clinton's numbers tick up slightly immediately before the first debate as the polls coming out will no longer be showing the state of the race during and immediately after the media CLINTON DEATHWATCH frenzy but rather after she has returned to the campaign trail. I would say that barring major unforseen events the polling averages will fall between -2 and +2 at the time of the first debate, which is obviously a dead heat.

    I think the JCPL has maxxed out unless the polling averages fall below -2 for Trump. That's the point at which we would have to say there is a fundamental shift in the race happening. Luckily I don't expect that to happen before the first debate and Clinton crushing Trump there before such a thing can occur is our best bet to re-establish the old +3.5 point equilibrium.
    posted by Justinian at 1:16 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    This is also why the hand-wringing about how much voters and the media focus on personalities and not nitty-gritty substantive policy is a bit misplaced.

    I'm glad we agree here. Because it's one thing to say "free college for all!", and it's another thing to do the nitty gritty work to fight a policy through and figure out how to pay for it. Based on a solid record of experience of wonkdom fighting policy into law, experience with wild opposition, and overall smarts -- this is why I'm really psyched for Hillary. She's been roundly acknowledged by her colleagues on both sides of the aisle for her deep, deep knowledge and work ethic. She's gonna Get Shit Done. Of the candidates, the nitty-gritty needle points straight to her.

    Trying to figure out what actually matters to the candidate is going to be at least as effective in predicting their actions in office as reading policy documents crafted to win an election and then quickly forgotten.

    Again, a career of evidence tells us what's important to Hillary: she's well supported by the NYers she represented, and her approval rating as SoS. She's spent a career pushing for women's and children's causes. Her Foundation gets an excellent rating for its work in helping people.. Yes, she gave a speech once to a bank, but no evidence says that that's an underlying cause for her. Her lifetime of work does.

    And yes, it's too bad that the media wrings its hands about whether she's a Likeable Person, after they've spent 20 years stating that she is Not Likeable.
    posted by Dashy at 1:16 PM on September 16, 2016 [24 favorites]


    Just saw this headline in the Google News Spotlight sidebar:
    Fox News - Dr. Keith Ablow: Hillary Clinton -- Inside the mind of a shameless liar
    Fair and balanced!
    posted by zakur at 1:19 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Loren Collins at Barackryphal made an interesting case back in 2013 that birtherism was "conceived" from a hypothetical legal question that was picked up by someone at FreeRepublic who subsequently spread it as truth.
    posted by Preserver at 1:19 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    10 ways Trump gives Clinton an opening by re-upping the birtherism issue:

    God, when even Jennifer Rubin gets it...
    posted by chris24 at 1:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Loren Collins at Barackryphal made an interesting case back in 2013 that birtherism was "conceived" from a hypothetical legal question that was picked up by someone at FreeRepublic who subsequently spread it as truth.

    Which itself is a rationalization for the true motivation: a racist dogwhistle.
    posted by Mooski at 1:25 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]




    From the Jennifer Rubin article linked above by kirkaracha:

    5. He is dead wrong that Clinton started birtherism. And if she did, boy, was he a sucker!

    Proposed first-debate question (fantasy):

    Mr. Trump, you are a very intelligent man. [pause for Trump to acknowledge flattery] How could someone as smart as yourself could be taken in so easily, and for such a long time, by the rumor that Barack Obama was born outside of the United States, despite abundant evidence to the contrary? Is it because Hillary Clinton started the rumor? [pause for denial of past birtherism] No, seriously, Mr. Trump, we remember; it wasn't that long ago, and you said it a lot. Also it was on Twitter: I have some tweets right here I can read to you, posted from your own account.
    posted by Spathe Cadet at 1:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    The Atlantic's James Fallows has an extensive debate preview and video preview. Fallows also discusses the debates and other matters on TNR's Primary Concerns podcast.
    posted by kirkaracha at 1:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Mr. Trump, you are a very intelligent man.

    I was with you until this part. Wait, that was the first part. Nevermind.
    posted by tonycpsu at 1:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Mr. Trump, you are a very intelligent man.

    I was with you until this part. Wait, that was the first part. Nevermind.


    Nah, I get it, and I can sure stomach shaking the man's hand if it puts him in range for a Sunday punch.
    posted by Mooski at 1:41 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    ROU_Xenophobe: I mean, really. I'm trying not to be pissed off about this kind of shit, but really.
    You might want to try a little harder, bro. FYI I'm already voting for Clinton, and your entire post is responding to some shit I never said and don't think, so I'll try to explain my point more clearly for you since it flew completely over your head (unless you just found it more cathartic to scream at someone else and format it like a response to me):
    • The youngest voters are already more in favor of Clinton than any other age cohort, so people probably shouldn't be getting angry at them for her poll numbers not being better than they are at this stage in the game.
    • If anything, we should probably be blaming older voters for not supporting her more and Trump less. Like a lot of people who have posted since me, I think this whole "well, you get more conservative as you get older, shucks, nothing we can do about them!" routine is a bullshit way to blame the youngs for not supporting hard enough to overcome the shitty opinions of people older than them.
    • For those who disagree with me and feel that yes, youth support should be even higher, the best way to accomplish that is through outreach designed to appeal to that demographic - i.e., "maybe it would be a good idea for her campaign to do something that appeals to them." I agree with you that Clinton supports a lot of policies that should please Millennial voters (and their parents, and people generally not doing great in society, etc.), and I also note that now that Sanders is out and the convention is over, I almost never hear anything about them anymore. If her campaign and surrogates and supporters were reaching out to young voters and trumpeting these positions more, her support would probably improve!
    • Instead, since the convention, the non-responsive talking points that I have heard almost exclusively from the Clinton campaign have either been: (1) Trump is a horrible person and is appealing to the scum of the Earth, and (2) check out all these Republicans/Republican media/right-leaning generals/etc. who have been endorsing Hillary. (1) is very true, but also unlikely to sway third party voters who already hate Trump! And despite your incredulous bluster, (2) is very much happening! (I could provide you a fucking.thousand.links.about.it)
    • The (2) strategy clearly isn't working, since a lot of moderate GOP voters are warming to Trump anyway and Clinton's post-DNC lead is dropping, so maybe it's time to switch to a different strategy. Like, possibly, youth outreach
    Someone else said they thought Hillary was going to have a Millennial-targeted event today. Great! She should probably do more of that. She has a lot going for her, and she (and the whole party really) did a FANTASTIC job of talking all about it and making her positive case at the DNC. I think it's time to try some more of that!

    Because really, if you want to help our candidate, the right way to go about it isn't confronting people you think disagree with you, demonstrating you are not listening to what they say at all, and screaming FUCK GOD DIDN'T DROP THE SCALES FROM YOUR EYES I'M SO PISSED OFF ABOUT THIS KIND OF SHIT FUUUUUUCKK
    posted by cobra_high_tigers at 1:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    Proposed first-debate question (fantasy):

    Actual first debate question: "Secretary Clinton, why are you not disqualified from this election because of your emails?"

    [fake, for now].
    posted by T.D. Strange at 1:55 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I note that one can be both simultaneously horrified that so many older and less educated white folks are supporting Trump and disappointed that so many young voters are supporting third party candidates. But only one of those groups is likely persuadable and it isn't the racists.
    posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    You know, it really is tiring to keep hearing "maybe it would be a good idea for her campaign to do something that appeals to them".

    That's just entitled and whiny at this point. If Millennials haven't figured out what about HRC's platform and policies do or don't appeal to them -- that's really on them and their lack of curiosity.

    Stop demanding "outreach" and "she should do more of that" already and start doing the work yourself. Stop demanding emotional labor from Hillary. Be responsible for your own feelings.
    posted by Dashy at 2:03 PM on September 16, 2016 [29 favorites]


    Once again, I'm on your side. Moreover this is get out the vote fucking 101. Knocking on doors and making phone calls helps. Telling people the good things about your candidate helps. If you want more Millennial support, talk to Millennials about Clinton. This is basic.

    You can complain about people being whiny and entitled for not voting for Clinton, but if you're going to continue demanding more of them should vote for Clinton without anyone having to do any work to reach the holdouts, you sound as though you feel pretty entitled--to their votes--yourself.
    posted by cobra_high_tigers at 2:08 PM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    I'm more conservative than when I was younger, but I was pretty far left so it'd be like going from Stein to Clinton.

    Of my college friends, some are more liberal and some are more conservative, but the full range is probably far left to center left, and most of us just kind of swapped around a bit.
    posted by thefoxgod at 2:08 PM on September 16, 2016


    It is the candidate's job to do the outreach, and Clinton has done that. She brought Bernie on board, and many of his staffers, specifically to reach out to skeptical younger voters. She's embraced a vast majority of Bernie's platform. She's with most young voters on the issues they say they care about, if not in the precise degree that they want, but far more than the alternative. At some point, it is incumbent on the voter to recognize this and take the action that reduces harm, even if the sales pitch hasn't been micro-targeted toward them in the way they want it to be.
    posted by tonycpsu at 2:08 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    It is the candidate's job to do the outreach, and Clinton has done that.

    Evidently many of the people she's reaching out to disagree.
    posted by dialetheia at 2:10 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    If Millennials haven't figured out what about HRC's platform and policies do or don't appeal to them -- that's really on them and their lack of curiosity.

    And if they haven't figured out Trump is an existential threat... Shit at some point it's just all hands on deck to stop the monster, not did the captain ask nicely enough.
    posted by chris24 at 2:12 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Stop demanding emotional labor from Hillary.
    posted by Dashy


    Brilliant. You got right to the heart of what's been bothering me about these Hillary complaints. Thank you.
    posted by agregoli at 2:12 PM on September 16, 2016 [30 favorites]


    I'm perfectly happy to see Clinton do more outreach (even if she shouldn't have to) but I really don't know what the 18-25 year olds want that she hasn't given them, besides "don't be Hillary Clinton".
    posted by Justinian at 2:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [19 favorites]


    Stop demanding "outreach" and "she should do more of that" already and start doing the work yourself. Stop demanding emotional labor from Hillary. Be responsible for your own feelings.

    If criticizing the strategic decisions of a campaign for the presidency of the United States is "demanding emotional labor," that phrase is so broad as to be meaningless.

    I'm not criticizing Clinton's strategy because I feel insufficiently pandered-to. I'm criticizing it because I'm afraid she is going to lose this election with a doomed effort to win moderate Republicans and stick us all with a fucking psychopath would-be dictator. This isn't a fucking game for me. I'm not going to be able to go to Canada or whatever. I have no credentials or resources sufficient to get residency in any other country. I am stuck here and I am scared fucking shitless every fucking day.
    posted by enn at 2:16 PM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    This is the part of the thread cycle where we stone the millenials
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:18 PM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    I mean yeah I would like to see a Clinton campaign that is effectively targeting and persuading as many people as possible to vote for her, whatever it takes, but on the other end of that, any lefty/liberal/progressive/not-awful young person looking at the two, and there are only two, people running for president who could possibly win this thing, and not reaching the conclusion that hey, one of these people is basically pro-human rights and anti-racist/sexist, and the other totally isn't, and they sure as fuck should vote for the former, within less than, I dunno, two minutes? five? then they really aren't acquitting themselves very well as far as fulfilling their minimal civic duties and upholding the most basic of the values they're supposedly on the side of and I question whether the proper smoke that needs to be blown up their asses to prevent them from voting for some third-party clown even exists
    posted by prize bull octorok at 2:18 PM on September 16, 2016 [28 favorites]


    That's every part of the thread cycle!
    posted by Justinian at 2:18 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Evidently many of the people she's reaching out to disagree.

    Then even Bernie isn't good enough for them, because he's telling them how foolish a protest vote is. This quest for purity has real costs to real people who don't have the luxury of waiting for the perfect embodiment of their own progressive ideals to be nominated.
    posted by tonycpsu at 2:19 PM on September 16, 2016 [33 favorites]


    In re outreach and responsibility: this is joint responsibility, and if the other party falls down on the job, one still has to do one's bit.

    For me, it's like if you're sitting in the passenger seat and the car is headed for a cliff. The driver is responsible for not driving over the cliff, and if they're a dumb-ass and driving drunk or whatever, they're a terrible person. But you can't just sit back and say "well, really, it's the driver's fault, if we go over the cliff it was because they didn't provide a good enough alternative". Both people have responsibility, because there's a grave problem and each person has the opportunity to fix it.

    I've definitely watched people in my social circle start to hypnotize themselves with the old "well, if Hillary loses, it's not the fault of people who didn't vote for her, it's because the Democratic Party didn't provide a good enough candidate". And yes, lots of the fault does rest with the Democratic Party. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is just excused from taking as serious a look at the likely future as possible and trying to wrench the wheel.

    If you see a serious problem looming and you just sit back and twiddle your thumbs instead of using the actual mechanisms designed for averting the problem, it becomes partly your fault.

    I also think about how dishes get handled at my house. I'm the only one who will do a whole sink full of dishes and clean the sink, because everyone else is a rules lawyer - "I didn't use that spoon, so I'm not washing it - and I guess I can't clean the sink, because there's this spoon in it". Yeah, okay, the spoon is someone else's fault. But we all use the sink, and you're fucking it up because you're not willing to take responsibility for fixing something that, admittedly, is not directly your fault.

    This is a terrible time and we're on the edge of a knife. It behooves everyone to bracket other people's personal stupidity and nastiness - recognizing that those things exist! - and fulfill our responsibilities in the moment.

    The Democratic Party has been crying wolf for many election cycles to get the base in line. But this time there actually is a wolf, and I think it's hard for people to get their heads around that.
    posted by Frowner at 2:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [53 favorites]


    What a lot of us are telling you guys, repeatedly, is that many of those 18-25 year olds don't know what she is pledging to give them, and her giant campaign apparatus should probably push some messaging/phone calls/etc. that gets the word out about it more effectively. This is not demanding "emotional labor" of the person of Hillary Clinton herself, this is advising the literal thousands of people who work on her campaign and its messaging and PR strategy and the millions of her supporters who have occasion to interact with those 18-25 year olds in person and on line on some literal labor that they should do instead of lamenting that Millennials only support her more than every other age group and not WAY WAY MORE than every other age group
    posted by cobra_high_tigers at 2:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    One huge thing she could do immediately is take a position and stand with #NoDAPL.
    posted by dialetheia at 2:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [16 favorites]


    a doomed effort to win moderate Republicans

    What besides the equivalent of "Come with me if you want to live" has she done? She hasn't changed policies to accommodate or attract them. That some sane Republicans are coming to the non-doomsday ticket says more about Trump than Clinton and if the mere fact that some horrified people are crossing over is pissing people off then wtf.
    posted by chris24 at 2:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [19 favorites]


    they really aren't acquitting themselves very well as far as fulfilling their minimal civic duties and upholding the most basic of the values they're supposedly on the side of and I question whether the proper smoke that needs to be blown up their asses

    To be honest, this is true for every single fucking left/liberal/progressive/not-awful American citizen this cycle, regardless of age.
    posted by joyceanmachine at 2:23 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    OK I'm out of this thread until you guys are done relitigating Clinton vs. Bernie. Later, friends.
    posted by stolyarova at 2:24 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    I really can't decide whether the 'performative despair'* or the 'elaborate primary battle reenactment' part of the thread cycle is more likely to lead to my finally stabbing out my eyes with the nearest available writing implement.

    More disturbing is the fact that we seem to be oscillating between the two poles with increasing rapidity. I don't know what will happen as the period approaches zero. I don't think anyone can know, really

    *and thank you for that turn of phrase, prize bull octorok
    posted by tivalasvegas at 2:25 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    that's what i was afraid of
    posted by tivalasvegas at 2:29 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I'm not sure how a disagreement that has Clinton and Bernie on the same side gets characterized as "Clinton vs. Bernie" or re-enacting primary battles, but if that's how some people see it, I'm happy to drop the subject.
    posted by tonycpsu at 2:30 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Volunteer for the HFA campaign.

    Learn about Hillary's policies.

    The concept of "heroes" is mind control. It trains us to wait for a savior instead of banding together, which is the only way change happens.

    We are all on the same team.
    We are all in this together.
    posted by erisfree at 2:32 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    > One huge thing she could do immediately is take a position and stand with #NoDAPL.
    posted by dialetheia at 2:22 PM on September 16 [7 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]


    I need to make a hotkey combination to type "yeah! what dialetheia said," because as is so often the case, I find myself thinking "yeah! what dialetheia said!"

    I sincerely hope that the Democratic Party manages to accept and understand the presence of a loyal opposition better than the Metafilter election threads do. The election itself may depend on it.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:33 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    if the mere fact that some horrified people are crossing over is pissing people off then wtf.

    I've seen a little of this (not necessarily here, and the specific instances I'm thinking of were not snake people), and it drives me crazy too. Some people basically seem to feel that because there are Republicans supporting her, that means she's basically a Republican. Even though it actually just means there were/are some Republicans who were not, in fact, batshit insane. Any non-insane Republican should be voting for Hillary, or Bernie, or any candidate who has a chance of stopping Trump (which is why I don't say Johnson --- I disagree with him on most things but he's not in the same crazytown league as Trump, but he also has 0 chance to win).
    posted by thefoxgod at 2:34 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    The Folly of Ralph Nader

    In the 2000 election, the high priest of anti-consumerism turned politics into the very thing he hated most.


    At best, Gore offered progressives a continuation of politics as usual. True, the Republican in the race seemed a right-wing buffoon, but Nader told his followers to vote their hopes, not their fears, and his message about citizens banding together to overturn entrenched, amoral corporate interests spoke to many people’s deepest aspirations. Bush and Gore, he said at Madison Square Garden, are “both for cracking down on street crime but ignoring corporate crime, which takes far more lives.” In response, the crowd erupted in chants of “Let Ralph debate!"

    But the past 16 years of American political life have disproved every fantasy on display at the Garden. Eight of those years were given over to a George W. Bush presidency that seemed like a long-running rebuke to Nader’s loose talk of the political parties being more or less the same.

    Yup. Nevar Forget.

    It is not corporate propaganda that turns presidential voting into a binary choice—it is the unwieldy electoral system outlined in the Constitution, in which a candidate must win a majority of electoral votes to emerge victorious. In parliamentary systems, coalitions of parties can form governments. In ours, the coalition-building has to happen inside the party, since otherwise an outright Electoral College victory is impossible. This reality is so basic that it feels patronizing to describe it and yet every four years, a sliver of highly mobilized citizens emerge who think they can wish it away. “It’s a political prison,” Nader said of the two-party system.
    posted by petebest at 2:41 PM on September 16, 2016 [18 favorites]


    By focusing a lot of her messaging on children, who are kind of cute and tug our heartstrings, H. Clinton is probably missing the target with majority of very young Millennials who don't have children at all and may never want to or may never find it an affordable option.

    (She may still think of them as children. I'm the mom to a 22 year old myself. But that's really off-putting to veer so close to infantilizing them, so she shouldn't say it. Let's pretend I didn't.)
    posted by puddledork at 2:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Much of her political life has focused on children. Not because they are cute.
    posted by zutalors! at 2:49 PM on September 16, 2016 [21 favorites]


    so I can make a comment and stay engaged in this discussion that has nothing to do with young people so nobody gets all upset:

    Primary season, many, many, many of my dentist's patients said things along the lines that they would leave the country if Trump won.

    Now, he said, nobody is talking the election.

    And we know that it's not because everybody being all chill.
    posted by angrycat at 2:55 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    And I'm in a swing state.
    "In the calm before the hurricane, there is quiet"
    posted by angrycat at 2:56 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    nah, it's the Penn Dental School, where Philly folk who need major work done but can only pay a few thousand go. Nobody, including me, is fleeing.
    posted by angrycat at 2:59 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I'm not so good at reading signs and omens from dental patients, what does their silence mean?

    fun link re: DJT meltdown from the HRC subreddit, take it with the skepticism it deserves, but enjoy
    posted by prize bull octorok at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    I know talking about actual policy is practically a derail at this point, but I'd like to point out a few things from the NYT article on Clinton's tax proposals linked upthread by melissasaurus:
    Nearly all the increase would come from new taxes on the wealthiest Americans. For those with adjusted gross incomes of more than $5 million, she would impose a 4 percent surcharge on top of the normal tax system. For those with incomes above $1 million, she would install a 30 percent effective tax rate, a version of what has become known as the “Buffett rule” after Warren E. Buffett, the billionaire investor, complained that he paid taxes at a lower rate than his secretary. Mrs. Clinton’s plan would also cap the tax value of deductions and exemptions at 28 percent and raise the estate tax.

    She would also close the notorious “carried interest” loophole that primarily benefits hedge fund operators and private equity managers, and, unlike Mr. Trump, not give it back by means of tax cut on the wealthy taxpayers who take advantage of it.
    Good. These are all good things.
    Everyone I interviewed criticized as fiendishly complicated and ineffectual what is probably Mrs. Clinton’s most innovative proposal, which is to put in place a graduated scale for tax rates on capital gains.

    Under Mrs. Clinton’s plan, taxpayers reporting capital gains held for one to two years would pay their ordinary income tax rate, which currently goes as high as 39.6 percent, just as they do now for gains held less than a year. Gains of two to three years would be subject to a 36 percent rate, and after that the rate would decline by four percentage points each year until it reached the current long-term rate of 20 percent. (All rates exclude the additional 3.8 percent surtax on net investment income.) In effect, there would be seven rate brackets for capital gains, compared with two under the current code.
    wtf? Why? That sounds like a huge pain to deal with. I'm all for raising capital gains rates, but that sounds like the worst way imaginable to go about doing it.
    But the goal is not revenue; it’s supposed to curb “activist” investors and others focused on short-term results, and persuade corporate executives to manage for the long term rather than for quarterly profit, according to a speech Mrs. Clinton delivered at New York University in July 2015.

    [...]

    The plan is lifted almost whole cloth from a paper published shortly before Mrs. Clinton’s N.Y.U. speech titled “How to Foster Long-Term Innovation Investment” by Neera Tanden and Blair Effron.

    Ms. Tanden, a close confidante and former campaign worker for Mrs. Clinton, succeeded the Clinton campaign manager John Podesta as president of the Center for American Progress, the think tank that published the paper. Mr. Effron is a co-founder of Centerview Partners, a Wall Street private equity and investment banking firm. Mr. Effron is also a major donor and fund-raiser for the Clinton campaign and has been mentioned as a potential Treasury secretary in a Clinton administration.
    *facepalm* Why is she letting bankers write their own rules? She can do better than this.
    posted by indubitable at 3:00 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    I question whether the proper smoke that needs to be blown up their asses to prevent them from voting for some third-party clown even exists

    this, on the other hand, is definitely endearing them to your side

    (also funny that we're talking about these millenials as if many are not right here in the room, probably lurking with a mixture of horror and laughter)
    posted by naju at 3:02 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I'm sorry if this is bringing up old news but you know that Dinild Trimp was also on the Tonight Show right?
    posted by komara at 3:03 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    s if many are not right here in the room

    I have not seen many millennials here saying they won't vote for Clinton, which is the group being discussed. I've seen people express various dissatisfaction with her but say they will vote for her anyway, which is not the group under discussion.
    posted by thefoxgod at 3:04 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    *facepalm* Why is she letting bankers write their own rules? She can do better than this.

    because they understand the thing they're making rules for? is there an actual objection to Effron or his plan?

    this, on the other hand, is definitely endearing them to your side

    anyone who is weighing internet comments like mine on one side of the scale and the plainly-stated policies, priorities, and attitudes of Donald J. Trump on the other can go vote for Harambe with my blessings.
    posted by prize bull octorok at 3:07 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    And we know that it's not because everybody being all chill.

    So the times I feel myself getting most close to bawling in public again is when I see stuff like this.

    Or when I work to help get LGBTQ refugees signed up for benefits, and hear their stories and look at their medical charts which are filled with the pain and scars of their flight from Syria, or Ukraine, or Central America.

    When I see young women in the hijab walking on the street and am instantly terrified for them.

    On the way to Mass we drove past a house festooned with flags and patriotic colors, and a sign in the window said "Hillary for prison".

    The other day my husband and I went for a walk in our heavily-minority Chicago neighborhood and I saw, spraypainted on a sidewalk in front of a church, the message "muslims go home".

    As Hillary so wisely said yesterday, Trump has shown us who he is and now it is time to show Donald Trump who we are.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 3:07 PM on September 16, 2016 [22 favorites]


    nah, it's the Penn Dental School, where Philly folk who need major work done but can only pay a few thousand go. Nobody, including me, is fleeing.

    Hey, that's my alma mater! I fled (18 yrs ago), to deep blue western washington. Most of the Bernie supporters I know are voting for Her, and just today I had a nice chat with two lady friends who were supporting Trump a month ago but now are leaning toward voting for Hillary because they just can't take the crazy anymore.

    We don't talk politics too much in my practice, but my long-standing patients love and/or accept that I am devoutly leftist.
    posted by OHenryPacey at 3:08 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    anyone who is weighing internet comments like mine on one side of the scale and the plainly-stated policies, priorities, and attitudes of Donald J. Trump on the other can go vote for Harambe with my blessings.

    I don't know man, learning that a huge number of Democrats outright despise you and your age cohort couldn't be a good thing. But everyone keep on being your awesome selves.
    posted by naju at 3:10 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    because they understand the thing they're making rules for? is there an actual objection to Effron or his plan?

    I left that out because I was already pulling a lot of text from the article, but basically: there's no empirical evidence that it would achieve any longer term thinking in management (the stated goal) and the more generous revenue projection is $84 billion spread over 10 years, which is small in tax terms.
    posted by indubitable at 3:11 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    And also, do you seriously not see a problem with an industry writing its own regulations? "They know the best way to regulate themselves" is practically a Republican talking point.
    posted by indubitable at 3:12 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    I have not seen many millennials here saying they won't vote for Clinton

    Haha there's probably a reason for that.
    posted by naju at 3:14 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    The Democratic Party has been crying wolf for many election cycles to get the base in line. But this time there actually is a wolf, and I think it's hard for people to get their heads around that.

    Dick Cheney was a wolf. Sarah Palin was a wolf. Not a very bright wolf, but a wolf nonetheless.

    Trump isn't a wolf. He's a whirling, tempestuous poltergeist fueled by the very vilest and cruelest American impulses.

    Everyone is having a hard time getting their heads around that. The media is trying to play against this poltergeist by wolf rules.
    posted by tclark at 3:14 PM on September 16, 2016 [18 favorites]


    I don't know man, learning that a huge number of Democrats outright despise you and your age cohort couldn't be a good thing.

    believe it or not, some of my best friends are millennials

    "They know the best way to regulate themselves" is practically a Republican talking point.

    "keep America safe" is also a Republican talking point, and yet neither of us want to see the clouds seeded with mustard gas just to thumb our noses at them. I would be extremely wary of industry regulations written by people who proudly lack any deep knowledge or understanding of said industry. I'm sure there exist people who have only academic experience with the financial sector who could take a swing at it but reflexively dismissing anyone who's worked as a banker from having anything useful to contribute just seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me.
    posted by prize bull octorok at 3:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    I don't know man, learning that a huge number of Democrats outright despise you and your age cohort couldn't be a good thing.

    Yeah, literally no one here is saying they don't like millennials. Some people are saying that the tiny percentage who are supposedly liberal yet not voting for Clinton, they don't like. Which is not even remotely the same thing. Most millennials are voting Clinton. Some are voting Trump or Johnson because they are conservative (while people talk about how liberal young people are, it's still nowhere near 100%). None of these people are being addressed in those comments (and yet I'm sure most still reserve more dislike for the millennials enthusiastically voting for Trump).
    posted by thefoxgod at 3:28 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    NYTimes:Trump Campaign Offers Conflicting Message on $1 Trillion Tax Cut Plan
    WASHINGTON — A few hours after Donald J. Trump publicly backed away on Thursday from a $1 trillion tax cut for small businesses, campaign aides privately assured a leading small-business group that Mr. Trump in fact remained committed to the proposal — winning the group’s endorsement.

    The campaign then reiterated to the Tax Foundation, a conservative-leaning Washington think tank it asked to price the plan, that Mr. Trump had indeed eliminated the tax cut.

    Call it the trillion-dollar lie: Both assertions cannot be true.[...]

    Dropping the tax cut is central to Mr. Trump’s optimistic claim that his plan would not increase the federal debt. But by simultaneously promising to keep the tax cut, the campaign won the support of the National Federation of Independent Business, an influential small-business lobbying group.

    “We’re comfortable” that Mr. Trump is committed to preserving the tax break, said Jack Mozloom, a spokesman for the group. “We have it directly from his campaign.”

    A spokeswoman for the Trump campaign did not immediately respond to emailed questions.
    Has there ever been such a weaselly candidate? It is amazing how he is able to say one thing on one day and and the opposite the next day. Is it because he tells so many lies that most people can't be bothered to keep track? Or is it simply that many people have stopped believing in campaign promises entirely and simply vote with their gut feeling? Call me old fashioned, I can't get used to his blatant lies.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:29 PM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Can we not simultaneously acknowledge that:
    • Clinton is liberal rather than left on finance issues,
    • that many people have good reasons to think that left solutions are better than liberal solutions on finance issues,
    • and also that we should vote for Clinton anyway, as a tactical measure to hold back white supremacist monsters?
    We are not part of the Clinton campaign. We are a tiny, politically irrelevant debate club buried deep in a old fashioned website from the 90s. But to our credit, we are also smart people, who can figure out how to support Clinton without also being intellectually dishonest about how many of us support Clinton not because we like her policies, but instead because:
    1. The alternative is nightmarish, and,
    2. Clinton, to her credit, does respond to forceful pressure from the left.
    My opinion of Clinton is, really, quite similar to my opinion of Sanders. I don't think she's remotely perfect, I think that she falls down badly on many key issues — just like Sanders fell down badly on many key issues — but I also think that she, like Sanders, is good at responding to pressure and adapting her positions.

    One of the things that I really appreciate about the Clinton campaign is that they are in fact pretty good at negotiating the complexities of reaching out to the left in an intellectually honest way. We have much to learn from the Clinton campaign.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:30 PM on September 16, 2016 [40 favorites]




    I know plenty of tax experts that do not work for or run private equity and investment banking firms. There is a huge gulf between "academic experience" and "literally runs an investment bank" and, in tax law, nearly all professors practiced for a significant amount of time before entering academia anyway. I'm not even opposed to the plan in theory (because I don't believe rate schedules make things needlessly complex), but for tax policy there really are tons and tons of experts who don't run investment banks.
    posted by melissasaurus at 3:30 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Some people are saying that the tiny percentage who are supposedly liberal yet not voting for Clinton, they don't like.

    hell I didn't even say that, I said they're not holding up their civic responsibilities and self-proclaimed values. I'll still have a beer with em
    posted by prize bull octorok at 3:32 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Ha, I like these attacks on Trump's obvious projection issues. There's no good way for him to rebut them without falling into the trap of...more projection. "I'M NOT PROJECTING, YOU'RE PROJECTING!!!!" "Hmmm, sure sounds like more projection, Donald."
    posted by yasaman at 3:35 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Can we not simultaneously acknowledge that:

    Clinton is liberal rather than left on finance issues,


    I can acknowledge that you and other people think this is so. But no, I don't have to agree with you.
    posted by zarq at 3:36 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    I'm still confused as to why the dental patients aren't talking about politics any more? Have they given up and resigned themselves to a Trump victory? Have they buckled down and taken action to win rather than simply lament Trump's candidacy? Are they unconscious from laughing gas? I just don't know.
    posted by Justinian at 3:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    The new hotel? Not perfect. There Is a Dead Bird Stuck in a Chute at Trump’s DC Hotel
    In one of the building’s antique mail chutes, sitting off the hotel’s grand atrium, lies a dead bird.

    It is unclear what species the bird is and how long it’s been there, but feathers and broken limbs are visible through the dusty glass. It’s a bit tricky to see, however. The hotel’s staff appears to have noticed—on Friday afternoon, the chutes were covered up by a photograph of the east façade of the US Supreme Court.

    The Old Post Office, completed in 1899, enjoys extensive historic-preservation status, potentially making removal of the dead avian tricker than simply opening up the wall and fishing it out. (Not that the Trump Organization always observed preservation rules during the renovations, some government officials have claimed.)

    Boy, I'm all for pointing out his incessant and irritating use of projection. He uses it so much that once it is pointed out you can't not notice it. The entire country should be made hyper-aware of this bad habit of his.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Maybe the dental patients are quiet because they're thinking about the dentist and we're beanplating them and normal people who aren't in this thread are probably able to go at least five minutes without thinking about Donald Trump and oh do I envy them?
    posted by zachlipton at 3:41 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    I'm gonna run into the nearest dental office, grab the first person I see in the waiting room by the shoulders, shake them and ask, "WHO SHOULD I PUT MY TRUST IN? WANG OR SILVER?"
    posted by prize bull octorok at 3:44 PM on September 16, 2016 [15 favorites]


    god I know there's a numberwang! joke in here somewhere, but I just can't put it together.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 3:46 PM on September 16, 2016 [18 favorites]


    The Trump campaign has sent out a survey asking his supporters if he should call her "Crooked Hillary" on stage.
    Yes
    No
    No Opinon
    Other (Please specify.)

    I'm guessing that his supporters are going to blast his socks off with an unequivocal "YES!!!!!!!!!!" Whether he is fool enough to take their opinions into consideration, we will see.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:46 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    More like The Event
    posted by Yowser at 3:47 PM on September 16, 2016




    I'm all for raising capital gains rates, but that sounds like the worst way imaginable to go about doing it.

    I dunno, sounds reasonable to me. People who are investing over the long haul are people saving for retirement. People investing short-term are looking to get rich off the system. (I have a family member who did just that, big-time.) So, fine, tax the predatory investors more. I mean this seems like exactly the kind of policy designed to hurt the financial industry players while leaving Joe Q. Public about the same.

    The plan is lifted almost whole cloth from a paper published shortly before Mrs. Clinton’s N.Y.U. speech titled “How to Foster Long-Term Innovation Investment” by Neera Tanden and Blair Effron.

    Ms. Tanden, a close confidante and former campaign worker for Mrs. Clinton, succeeded the Clinton campaign manager John Podesta as president of the Center for American Progress, the think tank that published the paper.


    Why are you highlighting only Mr. Effron's ties and not Ms. Tanden's? As far as I can tell the Center for American Progress is one of the most left-leaning and progressive organizations around. I mean, I'm open to explanations about why this plan is bad but "because there's a banker involved" isn't, in my opinion, sufficient argument.
    posted by threeturtles at 3:52 PM on September 16, 2016 [15 favorites]


    Hi MetaFilter! Long time no see!

    It's been awhile since I've had opportunity to comment in an election thread, though I've been reading them whenever possible. But I've started a new job, and have been pretty busy. I'm working for a certain non-partisan Association that traditionally has dealt with issues related to Retired People. Since I signed a non-disclosure agreement, I can't name them, but I'll call them the National Association of Retired People, or NARP. That ought to satisfy the NDA stuff.

    NARP is running a campaign to try to get candidates for federal office to speak about our issues. This includes the tactic of getting volunteers to wear matching t-shirts and attend presidential rallies in swing states, so that the candidates and their staff will see that our membership is paying attention to their campaigns and wants them to address our issues. We are a very large, very old, very well-known organization, and our membership has huge voter turnout. The best voter turnout. So we're hoping the candidates listen. Because whichever candidate becomes president, we want them to address our issues.

    As an organizer for this project, I was able to attend the Trump rally in Pensacola, FL last week. I hadn't been to a Trump rally yet, but was very familiar with the coverage of them. I just wanted to share a few observations.

    * Rallies are supposed to be Trump's Thing. Like, he has no field operation, is way behind on paid media, etc. But his rallies are supposed to be his main strength. If the Pensacola rally was any indication, then that is just a bunch of bullshit. Even though the auditorium was only about 8/10 full and people were still trickling in, Trump claimed that there were "Thousands of people lined up who can't get in because we've packed this place to capacity." Also, the music they played before the speakers: mostly a bunch of old Stones songs, mostly slow ones, and at least one Elton John ballad. Pretty low-energy stuff for a rally, in my opinion. Though I shudder to think how the crowd might have acted if the music had gotten them all fired up. Because, Yeesh.

    * The crowd included a "Bikers for Trump" group. They would go around between speakers, encouraging people to do "the wave" and whatnot. I got a look at some of their tattoos. No swastikas, but definitely some iron crosses. Also, lots of people in the crowd with various misogynistic t-shirts. You've all probably seen coverage of these things on the Daily Show or Full Frontal, so I won't bother to repeat the slogans here. But, blech.

    * Rudy Giulliani is fucking crazier than Donald Trump. That's an awful short list, but there you go. He's just awful, and the crowd loved him. I felt like I was on some weird, alien planet.

    * These people make a huge show of being very, very Jesusy. But in the worst, most hypocritical ways possible. Example: they said the "Lord's Prayer" (Matthew 6: 9-13) while ignoring some other very important stuff from Matthew 6, like Matthew 6: 1 - "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

    * Though my impression before going to a Trump rally was that it might be scary, I was never once scared. I was bored. But, I'm a white cis guy, so I'm in no danger at one of these events. My colleagues that attended with me are not white cis guys. They were very nervous about the whole thing, and very uncomfortable there, but they powered through it, because that's what they are used to having to do.

    ANYhoo, this got kind of long, so I'll just wrap up and say thanks to you all here for giving me a place to go to talk about this stuff, and even though on my job I have to be non-partisan, I can hardly wait to vote for Hillary Clinton and never have to pay attention to Donald Trump again.
    posted by Cookiebastard at 3:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [76 favorites]


    By focusing a lot of her messaging on children, who are kind of cute and tug our heartstrings, H. Clinton is probably missing the target with majority of very young Millennials who don't have children at all and may never want to or may never find it an affordable option.
    You know, this pisses me off, because among my friend group, paying for childcare is probably the number one bread-and-butter financial issue. I mostly hang out with older Millennials and younger Gen-Xers: people in their early 30s to early 40s. And the cost of childcare is a thing that people talk about all the damn time. It's not about cute and cuddly window dressing. It's about people not being able to pay their bills. It's about women being forced out of the workforce involuntarily because their paychecks don't cover the cost of daycare. It's about people leaving their kids all day in places that they aren't sure are safe, because they can't afford anything better. And I get that it's not an issue yet for many very young Millennials (although it is an issue for some: not everyone waits until they're 28 to have children), but I guess I just didn't get the memo about me and my peers being unimportant garbage people whose issues don't matter. I mean, I did get that memo, but I think it's bullshit.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [57 favorites]


    Yeah, literally no one here is saying they don't like millennials

    I mean I'm not going to do a 'greatest hits of condescension' playlist, and to clarify it's not just this thread or metafilter or one comment, it's happening everywhere, but I think it's a major turn-off, and speaking at least personally I'm voting for Clinton but I have a very tangible sense right now that this party and the people who identify in it no longer even want people like me in it (except insomuch as they get our vote), and they certainly don't care to understand where we're coming from. And as a 30-something I'm in Generation Y. I guess the inevitable reply is "who cares, these people should just look at her policy, not all the other crap" but this is very much about policy. It's about a very real ideological split right now between two lefts. And I can tell you the problem is not the people voting for X or Y third candidate, it's the people who act like they're complete idiots.

    This is Nader all over again. Not in the typical sense that progressives are spoiling the election, but in the sense that the blame game and finger-pointing is happening like clockwork.
    posted by naju at 3:57 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Center for American Progress is one of the most left-leaning and progressive organizations around

    The Baffler took a good look at CAP recently. Neera Tanden is in there a bunch. I wouldn't exactly agree with your assessment.
    posted by dialetheia at 4:01 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Boy, I'm all for pointing out his incessant and irritating use of projection. He uses it so much that once it is pointed out you can't not notice it. The entire country should be made hyper-aware of this bad habit of his.

    I agree with this in theory, but sadly, have no expectation that it will have even the slightest effect. Nothing has any effect on the True Believers. Trying to have a conversation with them is alternately mystifying and infuriating because the cognitive dissonance is so strong that they are impervious to reality, and I say that without a hint of hyperbole. Check out this exchange on Twitter. Politifact rates as "False" Trump's claim that HRC started the birther movement; just for starters, this guy holds the rating out as evidence that the claim is actually true. I kid you not. You cannot fruitfully talk to people who literally refuse to see reality.

    I mean, I try identifying the logical fallacies with these people -- moving goalposts! appeals to authority! arguments ad hominem! -- but I get dizzy and I have to stop and go lie down.
    posted by holborne at 4:05 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    not everyone waits until they're 28 to have children

    Yeah, the average age of first child in the US is around 26, which means there are lots of people in their early 20's having children.
    posted by thefoxgod at 4:06 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I mean, I'm open to explanations about why this plan is bad but "because there's a banker involved" isn't, in my opinion, sufficient argument.

    It's not a bad plan; and isn't a bad plan just because there's a banker involved. To me, it's just "oh, there's a banker involved, so I see they've decided there's a financial instrument or structure that would effectively postpone realization until they can receive the lowest rate." A lot of hedge funds started backing off lobbying for keeping carried interest because after a few months of seemingly-serious "close the loophole" discussion in DC, their attorneys had figured out a workaround, so they didn't care as much anymore. If a bank is saying it's a good idea, it's because they've already figured out how to exploit it to their benefit.

    So, I'm not saying that it's a bad plan. Just that, if an investment bank is cool with a tax policy, then it's likely the incidence of the tax will not fall on the investment bank.
    posted by melissasaurus at 4:08 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Cookiebastard, congratulations on a cool gig, but you missed a great opportunity in an acronym for the disguised organization you're working for: National Association of Retired Folks: NARF.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 4:09 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Trump May Be Abandoning 'Birthers,' but They're Not Abandoning Him
    almost all its prominent activists have flocked to Trump's campaign — from the handful of members of Congress who supported "birther bills" to Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who launched an investigation that claimed to prove Obama's birth certificate was a fraud, and Orly Taitz, the dentist and lawyer who the press once dubbed "the birther queen."

    Phil Berg, the Pennsylvania lawyer who brought the very first lawsuit challenging Obama's eligibility to serve as president in August in 2008, was a lifelong Democrat who switched his party registration this year to vote for Trump in the primary[...] Berg told NBC News that while he supported Clinton in 2008, he had no contact with her campaign before or after he filed his lawsuit, and that it did not have anything to do with her campaign. "I heard nothing from the Clinton campaign," Berg said. [...]

    Taitz, the dentist and lawyer who led many of her own birther lawsuits, urged her fellow believers to give Trump a pass for abandoning the cause.

    "Trump is hands down the best candidate to turn the country around," she wrote in a blog post Thursday. "My word to my supporters: let Trump win the election. There are only 8 weeks left. Now is not the time to talk about Obama, he is not running for president, Clinton is. Keep the eye on the prize!!!"

    In an interview, Taitz said she does believe that Clinton started the birther movement. But when asked why, she pointed to Berg, who she said was chairman of the Clinton's campaign in Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, at the time.
    So he is not going to lose any supporters over his renouncement of birtherism, on the other hand he may pick up a few. I see Kelleyanne Conway's handprints all over this but I wonder how Trump feels about it personally. I bet his few minutes of humiliation are sticking in his craw and he will turn into a snarling beast the next time anyone dares ask him about it.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:14 PM on September 16, 2016


    Thanks oneswellfoop, but it isn't even a word.
    posted by Cookiebastard at 4:15 PM on September 16, 2016


    uh guys are we just going to gloss over Trump calling for his supporters to assassinate HRC again?

    must be Friday
    posted by stolyarova at 4:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [24 favorites]


    While it can certainly be read that way, I read it as the standard response from the gun crazies to any gun control arguments. Basically, she is a hypocrite because she is protected by people with guns even though she wants to "take away" their guns. (In the context provided)
    posted by thefoxgod at 4:19 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    For those of us that need some calming, take a look at Pollyvote. "As of September 16, 2016, the PollyVote predicts Clinton to garner 52.9% of the two-party popular vote (Trump: 47.1%).".
    posted by vac2003 at 4:19 PM on September 16, 2016


    I will register my personal horror about this statement and the 2nd amendment insinuation earlier. He is vile.
    posted by Golem XIV at 4:19 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Thanks oneswellfoop, but it isn't even a word.

    well, how about 'smock'?
    posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    (I mean, she doesn't want to "take away" guns any more than Obama did, but the extreme gun crowd automatically believes any Democrats goal is complete disarmament of the right so they can be herded into FEMA camps or whatever)
    posted by thefoxgod at 4:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    uh guys are we just going to gloss over Trump calling for his supporters to assassinate HRC again?

    Maybe it's just me, but it's started losing its punch. I mean, it's still terrible, and I still think he should be arrested for it, but it's happened so often now that I hardly notice any more.

    Then again, I filter out a lot of the stuff that comes out of his noise hole.
    posted by Archelaus at 4:21 PM on September 16, 2016


    You need it to be an acronym: Society of Mature Older Citizens.... uh, Knowledgeable?
    posted by oneswellfoop at 4:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    After the recent report that Deplorable Donald has something like 11 different security firms protecting him in ADDITION to the Secret Service, Hillary's only response needs to be: "You first."
    posted by oneswellfoop at 4:24 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    Daniel Dale: Trump says, under him, American-made ships will patrol the seas. American-made ships already patrol the seas.

    Where the hell does he think our ships are made? China? Yeah the US Navy is loving those Chinese ships!

    Trump talks about Ford auto outsourcing, then says, "And then you wonder why I'm winning in Michigan." He is not winning in Michigan.

    He will repeat the lie often enough and then when he does lose Michigan everyone will know the election was "rigged."

    Trump, in Miami, calls for "religious and political freedom for the Cuban people." He adds that he has lots of Cuban friends.

    He passed through Little Haiti today and announced he has lots of Haitian friends. Boy he sure does have a lot of interesting and diverse invisible friends. The visible ones all seem to be old white men.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:26 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]



    The Baffler took a good look at CAP recently. Neera Tanden is in there a bunch. I wouldn't exactly agree with your assessment.


    Thanks for that; it was interesting, but I'm kinda feeling like there's not a lot of There There. This is the closing paragraph:
    "CAP really is the perfect liberal think tank for the age of Obama, when the core policy options and alliances that shape American politics are simply dictated by the flow of cash. The former staffer who spoke with me about CAP’s frequent communications with the Obama White House succinctly summed up the gnat-straining fate of the multimillion-dollar think tank. “They totally bought into the Obama vision, and he had no vision,” he said. “When Obama was progressive and talked about the stimulus, they were for that, and when he cut a deal with Boehner, they were for that. They don’t stand for anything themselves.” Except, it seems, for the moneyed regurgitation of the current Democratic mush."
    So, ok, I will retract my statement that it is Left. It is a mainstream left-of-center organization in line with the Obama administration and the Democratic party. Whether this is a terrible indictment or not is open for debate.

    This touches on the earlier discussion about whether people become more or less liberal as they age. I was a leftist firebrand who voted for Nader. Now I really would just like it if we could accomplish any of the stated goals of the democratic party sometime in my lifetime thanks. Incremental change sounds fine and dandy to me.
    posted by threeturtles at 4:31 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    By the way, at tonight's Miami rally Trump came onto the stage with a backdrop adapted from Les Miz (Les Deplorables) and his intro music was "Do you hear the people sing."
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:33 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    And I get that it's not an issue yet for many very young Millennials (although it is an issue for some: not everyone waits until they're 28 to have children), but I guess I just didn't get the memo about me and my peers being unimportant garbage people whose issues don't matter. I mean, I did get that memo, but I think it's bullshit.

    Sorry. I thought upthread we narrowed in on specifically the 18-24 year old demographic. And I mentioned that some in that age group that don't have kids yet may feel they will never be able to afford kids.
    posted by puddledork at 4:33 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    okay so uh now that he's dipping his toes into musical theatre, what are the odds that he actually starts using Tomorrow Belongs to Me at rallies?
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:34 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    From the "grain of salt" DU post linked above,

    He is apparently extremely angry at Conway and has given her an ultimatum to fix the mess he feels she made (Why we're now seeing frantic birther press releases coming from his campaign now)

    -He didn't want to do this and never wanted to give an answer on Obama's nationality. He was "bribed" with doing it by his team by being given assurances he'd get free advertisement for his new hotel if he held a major announcement there


    Fwiw, from the DJ PR site: "​CLINTON’S 2008 CAMPAIGN MANAGER ON WHETHER THEY PROMOTED RUMORS ABOUT OBAMA’S HERITAGE: 'YEAH'"

    Although that was all I could find of the "frantic" birther PR. Maybe the ORLY TAINT quote above counts.

    Survey says Conway out iiiiinnn . . . Looking for "one week"!
    posted by petebest at 4:35 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    TPM: Someone Got Under Trump's Skin
    > After a fascinating day at the races, Trump is now riling up crowd by fantasizing about Clinton being assassinated. "I think her bodyguards should drop all weapons. They should disarm immediately. Take their guns away, let's see what happens to her"
    posted by guiseroom at 4:36 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    and his intro music was "Do you hear the people sing."

    "No-oh, no-oh... I can't hear a fucking thing." as the terrace chant goes.

    Like I said upthread, he's high on his own supply right now, and yeah, probably angry that he didn't get full value from the media pool for his hotel promo. And the WaPo's hotel review hurt him as well. Call his hotels and golf courses cheap, vulgar, nasty and spurned by the public, and he'll go on tilt.
    posted by holgate at 4:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    What's the opposite of a "silent sucking sound"?
    posted by petebest at 4:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    A loud sigh?
    posted by stolyarova at 4:41 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    So maybe this little fantasy is where he is directing his anger? He still has plausible deniability just like his previous "Second Amendment solution" statement, but it does sound awfully close to that remark one of his supporters made about wanting to see her stripped out of her pantsuit and put into a an orange jumpsuit. A creepy fantasy about dis-empowerment and humiliation.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:41 PM on September 16, 2016


    Ear-shattering sucking sound.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 4:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Temple of Foon. Just bloat up at thread with stream of consciousness and pop corn.

    Lanterns and peyote optional
    posted by clavdivs at 4:43 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    By the way, at tonight's Miami rally Trump came onto the stage with a backdrop adapted from Les Miz (Les Deplorables) and his intro music was "Do you hear the people sing."

    Wasn't a big part of the French Revolution the execution of people who were a lot like Trump, except actually a lot more wealthy?

    To put it another way, people who own these chairs probably shouldn't be invoking the spirit of the Revolution.

    (Yes, the musical really takes place decades after the storming of the Bastille and isn't quite about that revolution, but the common sensibility of the thing...)
    posted by zachlipton at 4:43 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    In one of the building’s antique mail chutes, sitting off the hotel’s grand atrium, lies a dead bird.


    Poor Birdie Sanders :(
    posted by ian1977 at 4:43 PM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    earth shattering kaboom.
    posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:44 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Clinton's opponent's rhetoric embodies Margaret Atwood's quote that "Men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid that men will kill them". He loses his shit when a woman opponent challenges him and then openly talks of lethal violence directed towards her.
    posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:45 PM on September 16, 2016 [53 favorites]


    Daniel Dale: Trump, in what I believe is a first, promises he will stand with the oppressed people of Venezuela, who are "great."

    Unlike Mexico which is the eighth Wonder of the World but steals all our jobs.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:46 PM on September 16, 2016


    So Venezuela gets our support, because those people were "oppressed" through evil failed Socialism, but Mexico gets nothing because they used good old fashioned Capitalism to allegedly take advantage of us? I guess if we help Venezuela enough, they too can be successful and join the ranks of countries for Trump to rail against.
    posted by zachlipton at 4:49 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I like the "The Leaning Terrace campaighn of 2016" for the history books.

    Like Livia vs. Lepidus.
    posted by clavdivs at 4:49 PM on September 16, 2016


    Venezuela has burned alo of those bridges otter countries sold them.
    posted by clavdivs at 4:51 PM on September 16, 2016


    Like Livia vs. Lepidus.
    posted by clavdivs at 4:49 PM on 9/16
    [+] [!]


    Epony-nevermind
    posted by ian1977 at 4:52 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    I think the revolution in Les Miserables was doomed from the get-go, because the students naively and wrongly thought that the people of Paris would rise up with them, and the whole thing gets quickly crushed. Pretty much everyone dies except Marius, who feels bad and sings "Empty Chairs and Empty Tables" about how all his friends died for nothing. But it's ok in the end, because all the dead people are in Heaven and Marius and Cosette get to hook up. Inspiring!

    There's probably some sort of metaphor in there for something, but I'm not sure what it is.
    posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Venezuela's a basketcase now, but the core anti-Chavez opposition was always wealthy white people in designer gear who were offended that a majority of poor and/or browner people got to vote. Parse "great" that way first.

    I'm sure there's a deal in the works for Trump Caracas when the rich white people are back in charge.
    posted by holgate at 4:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Sopan Deb: Trump already thinking about re-election here: "...plus the next four years and then four years after that, okay?"
    And they say in terms of enthusiasm they've never had polling higher. So I think I have every little doubt. Turnout-- we're going to have a tremendous November 8th. Probably we'll say November 8th plus the next four years and then four years after that, okay?
    Anybody here speak Trumpish? I have no idea what those first two sentences mean.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:55 PM on September 16, 2016


    5 Points On The Most Stunning Revelations In NYMag's Ailes Bombshell

  • Gretchen Carlson secretly recorded alleged instances of Ailes' sexual harassment
  • Fox News allegedly hacked journalists’ phone records
  • Megyn Kelly reportedly rallied Fox women to speak to investigators
  • Oops! Ailes’ attorney reportedly sent severance agreement to Drudge Report by mistake
  • Real fears of a Trump TV network are reportedly swirling at Fox

    Although there’s been wide speculation that Donald Trump’s 2016 endgame may be to break into cable news with a conservative network that would rival Fox News, anonymous network insiders talked about Trump TV as a near-certainty that was casting a pall over the network’s future.

    The current top talent and leadership will only last through Election Day, one unnamed host told Sherman.

  • posted by petebest at 4:56 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Clinton's opponent's rhetoric embodies Margaret Atwood's quote that "Men are afraid women will laugh at them; women are afraid that men will kill them". He loses his shit when a woman opponent challenges him and then openly talks of lethal violence directed towards her.

    It's a completely irrational concern, I know, but I hope to Christ her SS detail marches onstage the moment Donnie leaves his podium to approach hers. It would be completely in character for him to try physical intimidation as a debate tactic, and would play very well with his Basket of Deplorables.

    If the Golden Fuzztop Cheeto Golem tries it, maybe a big man in a dark suit with a little earpiece could pointedly open a jar of pickles and offer him one.
    posted by Slap*Happy at 5:06 PM on September 16, 2016


    I'm glad that only Clinton and Trump will be included in the debates (at least the first one). I've got a very strong bias against changing the rules after a contest has started, and the rules going into this campaign were that candidates needed at least 15% in the polls.

    I think the one-on-one format will be an advantage for Clinton since he's never debated in that format and she's got a lot of experience from debating Sanders and Obama. When it's his turn he'll have a hard time filling two minutes with anything of substance, and when it's her turn he'll have a difficult time not interrupting her. Plus, she will be able to challenge him on his bullshit and I'm confident she will. In the primary debates and at his rallies he's been able to draw a lot of energy from playing to the crowd, and he won't be able to do that in the presidential debates. I'm betting he doesn't have the discipline or attention span to do well in this format.
    posted by kirkaracha at 5:07 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    I am encouraged by this: Why The Upcoming Presidential Debates Don't Bode Well For Trump.

    What's fascinating is the contrast between what got him here and what lies ahead in these head-to-head presidential debates. Domination and humiliation is much harder to do against a woman who arguably is at her best when being attacked by men.
    posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:11 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]






    That NY Mag story is incredible.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 5:19 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    her SS detail

    For obvious reasons they prefer "USSS."
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [22 favorites]


    I've been concerned I haven't had enough vegetables in my diet the last few days. Does Trump's word salad count?
    posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:26 PM on September 16, 2016


    Nina Turner is so out of evens on Chris Hayes.
    posted by Sophie1 at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2016


    Did you eat it? I wouldn't have eaten it.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    You might want to try a little harder, bro.

    On this, bubba, you are right.
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:31 PM on September 16, 2016


    anonymous network insiders talked about Trump TV as a near-certainty
    I've said before that he'll start Trump TV even if he wins, in order to have a fully subservient media entity, just like Putin and RT. And of course, his FCC appointees will make it a mandatory carry for every cable system.

    Does Trump's word salad count?
    The problem is his word salad has not been inspected and is obviously severely contaminated. Obviously contains brain parasites, which explains behavior of even some of his non-deplorable followers.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 5:31 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    DO NOT EAT THE WORD SALAD. I know parts of it look like fibrous oat-sludge that might be vaguely nutritious, or at least not dangerous, but no, it is all toxic, filled with hidden poisonous barbs and inflated with bubbles of reeking hot air.
    posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:32 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    New topic: which policies can Clinton enact without Congress' support? In the event she wins but Dems don't take the Senate.
    posted by wittgenstein at 5:36 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Yes, but the Word Salad has fewer calories than the Taco Bowl.
    posted by mmoncur at 5:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Oooh! Chris Hayes just cornered and accused Sam Nunberg of moral cowardice. He was an architect of the birther conspiracy and while he says he doesn't believe it anymore, he would not admit how incredibly racist it was and how it affected POTUS's family. Nina Turner helped, but I'm really proud of how Hayes genuinely would not let him off the hook.
    posted by Sophie1 at 5:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    I am encouraged by this: Why The Upcoming Presidential Debates Don't Bode Well For Trump.

    There is a long form Atlantic article from James Fallows that covers the same ground with a whole lot more historical context. I'm working my way thought it slowly, as you'd expect from Fallows, it is excellent.
    posted by peeedro at 5:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]




    The Big Question About Donald Trump’s Rise in the Polls:
    The big unknown, as Porn indicated, is whether Trump’s surge will be a temporary phenomenon. Political scientists and polling experts generally agree that big shifts in the polls can usually be attributed to two interrelated factors: real shifts in voter sentiment, and statistical outcomes that result from what experts call differential response.
    ...
    There is little evidence that Trump’s gains have been accompanied by any wholesale revision of voters’ opinions of him. According to the most recent Washington Post/ABC News poll, just thirty-six per cent of Americans think he is qualified to be President, and sixty-two per cent think he isn’t. (In the same poll, sixty per cent of voters said Clinton is qualified and thirty-nine per cent said she isn’t.) Other polls have produced similar findings. After consulting some historical data, the Washington Post‘s Greg Sargent wrote, earlier this week, that “Trump fares worse than even Sarah Palin did on perceptions of the level of qualification for the presidency. The only figure who had worse rankings on this than Trump was poor Dan Quayle.”
    posted by kirkaracha at 5:41 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    I read that NY Mag when it first came out two weeks ago and this part just haunted me:
    A former television producer described an interview with Ailes in 1975, in which he said: “If you want to make it in New York City in the TV business, you’re going to have to fuck me, and you’re going to do that with anyone I tell you to.”
    I hope everybody that comes into contact with Ailes has read this and taken notes. I didn't think I could despise Trump more but the idea that he willingly inflicts Ailes on the women surrounding his campaign-- including Ivanka-- turns my stomach. I still think this should emphasized by the media. This horrible man, Ailes, is working on Donald Trump's campaign for the presidency. It is grotesque.
    posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [42 favorites]


    If you think more should be enthusiastically supporting Clinton, maybe it would be a good idea for her campaign to do something that appeals to them instead of chasing endorsements from Republican generals and Bush 2.0 admin officials and the rest of her recent efforts to win over the mythical Rational Moderate Republican demo.

    And as an older millennial, it's total bullshit that my generation pats itself on the back for being savvy enough to not buy into the ~MSM narrative~ and then goes ahead and buys into the media's bullshit by thinking Clinton is only going after Republicans or going after them at all.
    posted by asteria at 5:49 PM on September 16, 2016 [23 favorites]


    I did a double take when this popped up. It's by SpockBoy, who is better known for his Trek vids.

    Trump meets The Honeymooners
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]




    New topic: which policies can Clinton enact without Congress' support? In the event she wins but Dems don't take the Senate.

    This will probably be the case even if the GOP loses the Senate (which I think is more likely than not) -- unless the Democrats really run the table of open and leaning House seats. I think they have to pick up all of the 20-ish tossup seats and another 10 or so light red seats to get to a House majority. So we definitely need to start talking about what another four years of divided government will realistically look like.

    She'll have the most rein on foreign policy and military policy. And of course she'll hit the ground running there.

    Executive orders can do things like make more stringent labor/environmental requirements for contractors doing business with the federal government.

    She'll have at least some discretion over aspects of domestic policy implementation, but the judiciary ultimately makes the calls on where the line between legitimate administrative rule-making and unconstitutional executive overreach. So getting the Supreme Court and the whole federal judiciary back to full strength is obviously important.

    The only place I can intelligently go into the weeds at all is health policy. There's a lot that can't be done to reform the ACA without Congressional support; but, for instance, more attention and support could probably be given to states that are looking to expand and simplify the health care landscape by granting waivers for progressive pilot programs and such.

    Particularly with divided government, the Administration has to articulate a clear and strong vision and program. If we're not moving the ball forward, it's going backward -- because the conservatives want the ball to stop altogether. They want to destroy our government. We can't let them
    posted by tivalasvegas at 5:57 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Twitter: Trump takes the stage to "Do You Hear the People Sing" from Les Miserables. And deplorables fan art.

    Alright, that's chutzpah, I'd have to grant him that
    posted by Apocryphon at 5:57 PM on September 16, 2016


    According to interviews with Fox News women, Ailes would often begin by offering to mentor a young employee. He then asked a series of personal questions to expose potential vulnerabilities. “He asked, ‘Am I in a relationship? What are my familial ties?’ It was all to see how stable or unstable I was,” said a former employee.

    Yeah, that was horrifying, also this:
    According to interviews with Fox News women, Ailes would often begin by offering to mentor a young employee. He then asked a series of personal questions to expose potential vulnerabilities. “He asked, ‘Am I in a relationship? What are my familial ties?’ It was all to see how stable or unstable I was,” said a former employee.
    The article says that as far back as the Nixon Administration, Ailes couldn't get a job in the White House because everyone knew what a fucking predator he was. For those keeping track at home, that's forty-eight goddamn years ago.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:10 PM on September 16, 2016 [30 favorites]


    What is the rationale of the Les Mis references? I get that it's clever but I just don't understand what the electoral strategy is there. Who does it appeal to? Is it just an intern messing with people? Do they think there's a segment of Broadway goers who can be swayed here? It's just such a weird act, if you took it in isolation, you'd say it's the kind of thing someone who knows they've already lost does just as a fuck off act of defiance. Or is it all a joke? I don't even.
    posted by feloniousmonk at 6:12 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    I'd say his entire campaign is a fuck off act of blind impotent defiance.
    posted by ian1977 at 6:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Is it just an intern messing with people?

    Trump's Razor says:

    yes
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:15 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    By the way, at tonight's Miami rally Trump came onto the stage with a backdrop adapted from Les Miz (Les Deplorables) and his intro music was "Do you hear the people sing."

    LOLZ forever. Things do not end well for the people who sing that particular song in Les Mis.

    What is the rationale of the Les Mis references?

    Presumably, since it is "the song of angry men," it is a troll aimed at reinforcing the deplorables thing. I mean, unless there is some large group of musical theatre fans who happen to be influential Trump supporters?
    posted by Joey Michaels at 6:16 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Maddow talking about Pepe


    jesus
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    It seems like Trump's Razor would say that he thinks he's winning people over with it.
    posted by feloniousmonk at 6:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I like to pretend that trump is from another universe sent to save us from GodEmperor Cruz and to hold a mirror up to the uglier aspects of ourselves so that we might enjoy a brighter tomorrow once he has been vanquished.
    posted by ian1977 at 6:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    I mean, unless there is some large group of musical theatre fans who happen to be influential Trump supporters?

    paging Marcus Bachmann
    posted by tivalasvegas at 6:18 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    Ha, I like these attacks on Trump's obvious projection issues. There's no good way for him to rebut them without falling into the trap of...more projection. "I'M NOT PROJECTING, YOU'RE PROJECTING!!!!" "Hmmm, sure sounds like more projection, Donald."

    Accusations of "projection" are meaningless. It's just one more concept that Freudian psychatrists can bully their patients with. Denial: "The fact that you say this isn't true, proves that it is true!" Sublimation: "You're doing something completely different than what I'd expect, which proves that you're sublimating the urge to do it!" And so on.

    (If a therapist frames your actions in terms of denial or projection or something and you agree with them, then great, that could be a step toward resolving your problems. But it's not meant to be a superweapon against people you don't like.)

    (And there are so many more problems with Trump's words and actions to attack him for, instead of evidence-free speculation about his inner mind...)
    posted by Rangi at 6:19 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I suspect they're trying to claim/ruin Les Miz much as they did Pepe.
    posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Has anyone seen any polling on how millennial voters are responding to the Clinton campaign's messaging on Russia?
    posted by dialetheia at 6:21 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Message from my mom: Did you know about this frog thing
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:23 PM on September 16, 2016 [39 favorites]


    The Pepe thing is a loser of an issue. It's too inside baseball, too ridiculous, and too complicated.
    posted by Justinian at 6:23 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Like Trump Jr jokes about gas chambers, they put a picture of Clinton and cash over a Star of David, they retweet white supremacists, etc etc and someone thinks its a good idea to talk about a cartoon frog. If the other shit doesn't convince people a stupid cartoon frog won't matter and its a waste of time. Arrrrgh.
    posted by Justinian at 6:26 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Van Jones to Corey Lewandowski on Don Lemon's show just now (paraphrased:)
    Trump didn't follow Clinton staffers on domestic policy, on foreign policy, on anything else. Why would he follow a Clinton staffer on the birther issue if that's what you're saying happened?
    posted by Cookiebastard at 6:27 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    The Pepe thing is a loser of an issue. It's too inside baseball, too ridiculous, and too complicated.

    Normally I would agree with you, but this election has turned my non-political parents into MSNBC junkies

    And MSNBC is now talking about nazi frogs
    posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:35 PM on September 16, 2016 [14 favorites]


    According to the most recent Washington Post/ABC News poll, just thirty-six per cent of Americans think he is qualified to be President, and sixty-two per cent think he isn’t.
    In the same poll, 43 percent said they'd vote for Trump. Think of the implications... there is at least 5 percent who support him even though they think he is NOT qualified (and another 2% not sure). This is a whole 'nother basket of not just deplorable but downright reprehensible. Are they saying "burn it all down, and Trump is the idiot who can do it"??
    posted by oneswellfoop at 6:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    I think they're saying 'at least he's not Clinton.'
    posted by ian1977 at 6:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    In the same poll, just 39% said Clinton was NOT qualified, again, less than the total of Trump voters.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 6:42 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    So there is some subset of people who simultaneously say Trump is not qualified to be President, Clinton is, but they're voting for Trump anyway. Oh my head.
    posted by Justinian at 6:44 PM on September 16, 2016 [13 favorites]


    Don Lemon appears to have grown a spine on CNN - a fairly withering dismissal of Cory Lewandowski's talking points about Clinton having 'raised' the birther issue. (I also noticed they now mention that Lewandowski is still receiving "severance" from the Trump campaign when he appears, which they didn't previously do).
    posted by modernnomad at 6:44 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Asking who is qualified to be president is not the right question for that 5%. You can think somebody isn't qualified and still want to vote for them. Maybe they think having an unqualified person - who McConnell can walk all over - is a good thing. Maybe they think it will help government get drowned in the bathtub. Maybe they think he'll learn on the job and he's ideologically closer to them.

    Qualified doesn't matter when we're talking about voting for a member of your team.
    posted by Joey Michaels at 6:47 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Maybe Trump's problem is that he thought the Thénardiers were the heroes
    posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:51 PM on September 16, 2016 [9 favorites]


    (I also noticed they now mention that Lewandowski is still receiving "severance" from the Trump campaign when he appears)
    Which is a better deal than he has given 99.9% of the people who used to work for him.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 6:52 PM on September 16, 2016


    Trump takes the stage to "Do You Hear the People Sing" from Les Miserables. And deplorables fan art.

    This really is the All The Worst Aspects Of Fandom election. I thought I left all that behind when I flounced from Doctor Who fandom. YOU CAN'T TAKE THE SKY FROM ME, MOFFAT!
    posted by soren_lorensen at 6:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [10 favorites]


    Pepe is important. As is "Fellow Centipedes/Nimble Navigators" - it is a no-kidding insider symbology for an actual fascist conspiracy. It's the motherfucking Thule Society and Unión Militar Española all over again.

    This is a pitchforks-and-torches election. Everyone knows The Donald is terrible. Clinton needs to start making a case as to why she is good.

    She seriously needs to own the "Third Term" thing. Rising employment, wages and exports, lower prices at the pump, implacable enemies becoming our friends or suffering as they never have before, banks caught and punished ripping people off... YES. FOUR MORE YEARS!

    Also, Donnie D'oh-do should not be her first target. Remind everyone of the mess Dubbya was, compared to the administration that came before, and then remind them not even The Double Yew could bring himself to endorse Donald J. Goldfinger. George W. Bush, the worst president of our lifetime, is not voting Republican this election.

    But screw that! What has Hillary done for us, and what will she do for us? An unanswered question that sends the leftmost of us (including me) into nauseous nailbiting. This is changing, as Kai Ryssdal lobbed dumb questions at Clinton's economic advisor on NPR's Marketplace, including one about the goddamn Goldman Sachs speeches... and miracle of miracles! He had a good answer, and steered the interview back on track with solid policy. He had a lot of good answers.

    Attacking Trump is a loser's game. Boasting about your own policies and track record, while ALSO attacking Trump will win. Her campaign shows every sign of getting this.

    I am really looking forward to the debates.
    posted by Slap*Happy at 6:55 PM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Donald Trump says that, if he’s elected president, he will reverse President Barack Obama’s efforts to normalize relations with Cuba — unless the country abides by certain “demands.”

    Trump says at a Miami rally that those demands will include religious and political freedom for the Cuban people and the freeing of all political prisoners.
    posted by kirkaracha at 6:56 PM on September 16, 2016


    I think Trump heard the bit in "At the End of the Day" where Fantine gets fired [in the book, for being an unmarried mother, in the musical because she's assumed to be a prostitute] and decided we need more musicals featuring firings.

    All this time we've been assuming Hamilton was the soundtrack to our time, but Lin-Manuel Miranda knew what was up all along with his incessant Les Mis fandom.
    posted by zachlipton at 6:59 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]





    But by 1995, things had reached a breaking point. . . . after then–NBC executive David Zaslav told human resources that Ailes had called him a “little fucking Jew prick” in front of a witness.

    Zaslav told Proskauer investigators he feared for his safety. “I view Ailes as a very, very dangerous man. I take his threats to do physical harm to me very, very seriously … I feel endangered both at work and at home"


    Nice. Ailes the Nazi Frog. And

    Ailes was notoriously paranoid and secretive — he built a multiroom security bunker under his home and kept a gun in his Fox office

    Tricky Dick would be proud. THERE'S your campaign consultant! Though I'm struggling to imagine what he thought he'd do with a gun in his Fox office. Well, besides offing Steve Doocy in a blind panic of good sense.
    posted by petebest at 7:03 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Donald Trump says that, if he’s elected president, he will reverse President Barack Obama’s efforts to normalize relations with Cuba — unless the country abides by certain “demands.”

    American Citizens, some of them grand-children or great-grandchildren, can get on a normal flight from Florida, and go see Abuelita for the first time in sixty years.

    Donald J. Trump seeks to undo this.

    Hillary Rodham-Clinton seeks to expand this, with trade and cultural exchange.

    The. Choice. Is. Clear.
    posted by Slap*Happy at 7:05 PM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Trump says at a Miami rally that those demands will include religious and political freedom for the Cuban people and the freeing of all political prisoners.

    Something something Russia something.

    (of course, Trump surely dreams of opening a casino in Havana.)
    posted by holgate at 7:08 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]




    Trump’s new hotel offers everything he claims to hate

    Of all the baffling things about Trump, his astonishingly crass taste is one of the bafflingest. It's like a ten-year-old's notion of rich-person things, based on reading Scrooge McDuck comics. Or a cocaine kingpin in a bad '80s vigilante-cop movie. Or a poorly Photoshopped flyer for a New Year's Eve party at a terrible "VIP" nightclub. Or a chain restaurant themed after a Rococo palace.

    Everything about it – from the pointless marble everywhere, to the pointless gilded everything, to the gratuitous crystal chandeliers, to the overpriced liquor, to the foods coded "rich" (steak, etc.) – is chosen solely because it's ostentatiously expensive, luxe, exclusive.

    It's one thing to spring for expensive things because you have an ambitious aesthetic vision, and the materials needed to realize that vision happen to be expensive, and you happen to have the money.

    But the design process for Trump's brand seems to be more like: "What screams 'expensive'? Let's use that." The message it tries to send is: "I can afford to wipe my ass with hundred dollar bills, and I want you to know it, and my appreciation for 'the finer things' begins and ends there".

    And it doesn't even achieve that. It wants you to think "wow, the owner of this must be an important and powerful person". But it's so dreadfully tacky that what you actually think – what I think, anyway – is "holy shit, someone gave a million-dollar interior design budget to someone whose main aesthetic inspirations are Nevadan brothels and the fake Roman columns in the JC Penney bedding department". It's what you get from a person who has way too much money (but nowhere near as much as he wants you to think he has), and no idea what to do with that money except to gleefully rub it in other people's faces.

    The fact that he (apparently) sits in places like this and chows down on Big Macs makes perfect sense.
    posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [60 favorites]


    He's a pathologically insecure man. He's insecure about his wealth and how he got it, he's insecure about being from Queens instead of Manhattan, he's insecure about his manhood, he's insecure about his intellect. He wears a person suit constructed to be the most wealthiest-looking, most manly, and most smarty evar but he's none of those things so it's ill-fitting and half of us can see the zipper showing.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 7:22 PM on September 16, 2016 [25 favorites]



    . . . I interviewed 18 women who shared accounts of Ailes’s offering them job opportunities if they would agree to perform sexual favors for him and for his friends. In some cases, he threatened to release tapes of the encounters to prevent the women from reporting him. “The feeling I got in the interview was repulsion, power-hungriness, contempt, violence, and the need to subjugate and humiliate,” says a woman who auditioned for Ailes in 1968 when she was a college student


    It's like a mirror of the Cheeto himself.

    His father, a factory foreman, abused his wife and two sons.

    Violent alcoholic father, lusts after and hates women, virulently anti-Semitic, paranoid lying crook . . . Holy shit, Nixon really is back!
    posted by petebest at 7:24 PM on September 16, 2016 [6 favorites]


    That second penthouse (#5 on the list) is mostly not tacky at all!
    posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:25 PM on September 16, 2016


    Is there actually a difference between the polling question "Do you believe Candidate X is qualified to be President" and "Do you support Candidate X"? I'm coming to the view that the "qualified to be president" tack doesn't actually add much value.

    It would be better for pollsters to ask questions that get more directly at people's motivations. Sure, some people are just openly, honestly white supremacists and they could care less if black and brown people leave/are deported/die in a fire. But that's the 27% (less, I actually think). How is Donald consistently getting to 38-42% support?

    Some of it is people who are deliberately holding their noses: they loathe Trump but hate Clinton more. (A lot of this is the evangelical wing of the Right.) That's a frustrating group, but they're a known quantity. Some of them can be peeled off with traditional outreach strategies; some of them will never vote Democratic because Roe v. Wade, etc.

    But I think there's a third group -- a different, new and -- is there another word I can use? maybe not -- ok, a "disruptive" group that has emerged.

    I think there are a lot of people that just plain don't give a fuck about "qualifications" or "business experience" or whatever, they just want to get a rise out of the people who actually see the seriousness of political issues. (One of them is running for President.)

    They're not serious. They're fundamentally unserious.

    They're having fun.

    They like to play, they like to poke at the scolds and the schoolteachers who keep making them write stupid multi-culti book reports and whine and who put options for Spanish on phone trees and who give them sharp looks when they joke around about some Disadvantaged Group that, let's be honest, is kind of a pain in the ass.... They love DJT not so much because he Tells It Like It Is but purely because he pisses off the annoying people like no one else can.

    I grok it (I think). But I can't figure out to get at them, how to cut through the jokey bullshitting play and communicate that this is serious. That people will suffer and that people will die. That they themselves may suffer and die.
    posted by tivalasvegas at 7:28 PM on September 16, 2016 [35 favorites]


    it's so dreadfully tacky that what you actually think – what I think, anyway – is "holy shit, someone gave a million-dollar interior design budget to someone whose main aesthetic inspirations are Nevadan brothels and the fake Roman columns in the JC Penney bedding department".
    ...or the New York Times Style Section (Reason #14 why the NYT goes way too easy on him)
    posted by oneswellfoop at 7:28 PM on September 16, 2016


    That second penthouse (#5 on the list) is mostly not tacky at all!

    But it has a Damien Hirst dot painting. It is kind of trying for Dwell. Maybe it's Melania's decor.
    posted by dis_integration at 7:34 PM on September 16, 2016


    The embrace of the deplorable label is kind of... I mean in context,
    The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic — you name it.
    Is that really the label they're trying to embrace? Like they're celebrating being racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, and Islamophobic?
    posted by Talez at 7:35 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Yes they are doing exactly that as far as I can tell.
    posted by Golem XIV at 7:37 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    Yes. Because celebrating those things upsets, irritates, and frightens liberals. (And/or because they think there's nothing wrong with being those things. But I think it's mainly about upsetting liberals.)
    posted by Spathe Cadet at 7:38 PM on September 16, 2016 [11 favorites]


    Yes. And guaranteed 40% of the vote doing it.
    posted by Artw at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I think there are a lot of people that just plain don't give a fuck about "qualifications" or "business experience" or whatever, they just want to get a rise out of the people who actually see the seriousness of political issues.

    Oh, I've thought from the beginning that Trump's core constituents are just in it for the lulz. They love Trump because he infuriates, repels, terrifies, and stymies the people they hate – liberals, minorities, SJWs, etc.

    I am not the only person to make this observation.

    It's hard to imagine that large numbers of people are that petty and nihilistic, that ready to hurl the country into the abyss just to upset the lefties – but over the last year-plus, they've done very little to disprove the notion.
    posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [8 favorites]


    Of all the baffling things about Trump, his astonishingly crass taste is one of the bafflingest.

    I always read it as a class thing personally; part of what marks him as "man of the people" despite being in a dynasty of wealth is his flashy/crass taste, his impulsivity, and his exaggerated emotional responses. I've wondered for a while if that isn't a lot of what the media likes in him - he presents as incredibly wealthy while not behaving in the manner expected for him since he is wealthy (see also: Paris Hilton, the Kardashians).

    "Class" in a cultural sense seems to be devalued in the current political landscape in the US and has been used against Democrats by Republicans for a while, of which Trump is merely the latest, most extreme example. Ironically, by and large my impression is that despite Republican candidates trying to code middle or lower class as a political strategy, Democratic candidates tend to actually come from the middle or lower class and are presenting as higher class than their fiscal origins in order to blend into wealthy environments like Ivy League schools and political fundraisers.
    posted by Deoridhe at 7:45 PM on September 16, 2016 [16 favorites]


    I think there are a lot of people that just plain don't give a fuck about "qualifications" or "business experience" or whatever, they just want to get a rise out of the people who actually see the seriousness of political issues. (One of them is running for President.)

    They're not serious. They're fundamentally unserious.

    They're having fun.

    They like to play, they like to poke at the scolds and the schoolteachers who keep making them write stupid multi-culti book reports and whine and who put options for Spanish on phone trees and who give them sharp looks when they joke around about some Disadvantaged Group that, let's be honest, is kind of a pain in the ass.... They love DJT not so much because he Tells It Like It Is but purely because he pisses off the annoying people like no one else can.


    Libertedgelordians

    Grieform Party
    posted by Existential Dread at 7:48 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    They're not serious. They're fundamentally unserious.

    They're having fun.


    Hmm. In my experience, those kinds of people sound similar to that one sibling or relative that thinks they're being funny and/or telling truth to power when they're acting in a rude, selfish, dismissive, or toxic way to other family members. I mean, yeah, those people are great at being unserious and joking when it comes to other people's problems. But as soon as they encounter a difficult situation or get in over their heads, all of a sudden they're completely serious and you must treat their issue as priority #1.
    posted by FJT at 7:53 PM on September 16, 2016 [17 favorites]


    > The fact that he (apparently) sits in places like this and chows down on Big Macs makes perfect sense.

    What else would one eat in a McMansion but a Big Mac?
    posted by guiseroom at 7:55 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    That second penthouse (#5 on the list) is mostly not tacky at all!

    "...which he has never lived in and probably doesn’t plan to live in."

    The taste argument is tricky because it can come across as elite sniffiness towards lower-brow aesthetics, from Branson, MO to Royal Caribbean. The kitsch and the camp intersect with Thomas Kinkade and those atrocious McNaughton paintings of weeping presidents, and eagleflag avatars and so on.

    (Think of the McMansion thread from not long ago and the way in which the style is defined by cheap augmentation.)

    Doesn't mean he hasn't spent his adult life surrounding himself in Dictator Fugly.
    posted by holgate at 7:56 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    No, you're getting it - they're trolls, and trolls all turn into tantruming little babies if things don't go there way.
    posted by Artw at 7:57 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    And their King is Donald J. Troll... and he only wants to rule us all. And laugh.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 8:00 PM on September 16, 2016


    What can Clinton do for Me?

    Well, I'll tell you. Minimum Wage? Raised. Your wage? Raised right alongside with it! Mandatory vacation? How does three weeks sound? Baseline. White collar workers? Expect more. Pay, vacation, promotion. MORE. That is the Obama way... oh, wait, we're talking Clinton. She is good at what she does, expect it to be reflected in your take-home pay, very positively.

    Donkey Punch, err, I mean, Donald Trump expects you to be poor more for our nation.
    posted by Slap*Happy at 8:17 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Thankfully I only know a few people personally who are voting Trump as I want to start screaming at anyone who tries to praise the walking cat turd. I know more people who either are not voting at all because they think politicians are all the same or voting for Johnson for one reason or another. One person told me he (Johnson) seems more like a normal person than either Trump or Clinton, and I kinda agree with that as he seems about as qualified for the office as any random neighbor of mine does. I mean I think he would be fun to watch a college football game with or something.

    An older relative said his number one reason for supporting Trump is that he believes he will stop all of the terrorists from coming into the country and destroy ISIS. And apparently Trump being rich means he can actually do what he wants to do, so he is the most trust worthy candidate in years.

    Unless something has changed in the last year or two this person does not use the Internet at all and gets his information from sources like Rush/Fox and 100% believes that all of the "racism stuff" is made up but believes all of the weird conspiracy trash about the Clintons and there is nothing on this earth that could convince him he is wrong. A lot of the older people that I know around here are "the right way to vote is for whatever creature has an R next to it's name" types but he is worse than most of them because he actually claims to keep up with the news/politics really well and still thinks Trump is the good guy. I get why the trolls and white supremacists support him but I do not get the Trump supporters who actually believe he can do the job.
    posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 8:20 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    But I think there's a third group -- a different, new and -- is there another word I can use? maybe not -- ok, a "disruptive" group that has emerged.

    A relevant piece of information journos, being hopeless normies, failed to provide in their breathless Pepe articles is that Pepe is an avatar of Kek, frog-headed Egyptian god of darkness and chaos.
    posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:24 PM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Trump on Clinton's guards: 'Take their guns away, see what happens to her'
    CNN pulling no punches post-Trumproll.
    posted by Talez at 8:30 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Pepe is an avatar of Kek, frog-headed Egyptian god of darkness and chaos.
    posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:24 PM

    Eponysterical!
    posted by stolyarova at 8:31 PM on September 16, 2016 [7 favorites]


    I'm starting to worry about you guys.
    posted by stavrogin at 8:36 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    An older relative said his number one reason for supporting Trump is that he believes he will stop all of the terrorists from coming into the country and destroy ISIS. And apparently Trump being rich means he can actually do what he wants to do, so he is the most trust worthy candidate in years.

    This shit is so fucking infuriating. The #1 existential threat to the United States right now is the nakedly fascist, anti-democratic, white-nationalist, mentally unstable demagogue who is currently polling within a hair's breadth of the Presidency. Terrorism is, like, #17 on the fucking list.

    But people are goddamn fucking morons who can't comprehend any problem or threat more abstract than Bad Guys™, who come conveniently self-identified as Bad Guys™ (whether by their uniforms, or the color of their skin, or the peculiarity of their names/languages/religions/etc.). So here we fucking are.

    Sorry; I've had a couple of whiskies (and they were big ones), and I'm running out of evens. New thread time.
    posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:39 PM on September 16, 2016 [12 favorites]


    Fear is a hell of a drug.
    posted by soren_lorensen at 8:50 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    We can't make it an entire week on a thread anymore? I really feel like one a week ought to be the max, absent special events.
    posted by zachlipton at 9:00 PM on September 16, 2016 [1 favorite]


    weretable, if you want to reach a Trump supporter with the message that he's a fake and a fraud, tell them that his image was created for him by the New York Times (Style and Business sections)... which is NOT very far from the truth. If we're so upset with him being in bed with the NYT, just imagine how pissed a FoxNews follower will be.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 9:01 PM on September 16, 2016 [3 favorites]


    What is the rationale of the Les Mis references? I get that it's clever but I just don't understand what the electoral strategy is there. Who does it appeal to?

    The American extreme right like to see themselves as leading a populist revolution. It's an extension of the phenomenon we've often noted here, where white nationalists and Christian fundamentalists see themselves as victims of oppression rather than the would-be oppressors they actually are. Trump, like Pat Buchanan and others before him, offers these people the dream of overthrowing their oppressors (broadly, people who make them pay taxes and tell them that racism is bad). See also the Tea Party and the American Revolutionary imagery they co-opted.

    I think that's what they're aiming for. And I think Universal Pictures needs to sue the hell out of the Trump campaign, because that is a truly poor Photoshopped still of Aaron Tveit from the 2012 movie, and I am pretty sure they did not authorise the promotional use of that image or that music. Sue their butts off, and donate the money to Planned Parenthood, refugee charities and Hillary.
    posted by Pallas Athena at 9:13 PM on September 16, 2016 [5 favorites]


    It's hard to imagine that large numbers of people are that petty and nihilistic, that ready to hurl the country into the abyss just to upset the lefties – but over the last year-plus, they've done very little to disprove the notion.

    The 27% Keyes Constant. They do it despite it being irrational. See Also: Crazification Factor.

    They're a subset of what Howard Stern called "The Goofy Vote" when he campaigned for Governor of New York.
    posted by mikelieman at 9:43 PM on September 16, 2016 [2 favorites]


    America doesn't make anything anymore -- y know what I'm talking about, folks? Remember back when an election thread, an election thread would last a week, two weeks, even a whole month?

    And remember before the redditors invaded? If I'm elected moderator, believe me, we're going to build that wall, and Reddit's going to pay for it.
    posted by tonycpsu at 9:54 PM on September 16, 2016 [4 favorites]


    A relevant piece of information journos, being hopeless normies, failed to provide in their breathless Pepe articles is that Pepe is an avatar of Kek, frog-headed Egyptian god of darkness and chaos.

    Kek is also known as Kuk.

    Just puttin' that out there.
    posted by Sys Rq at 12:57 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Looking at Andy Richter's twitter stream I can confidently say Trump won't be on Conan any time soon.
    posted by PenDevil at 1:08 AM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Well, I'm sure TBS parent company Time Warner wouldn't want him on Conan... he'd be much better on Season 7 of Game of Thrones on HBO... or a Guest Demon on "Supernatural" on the CW.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 1:19 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Reads to me like a quantum waveform collapse. That's when we finally will know which timeline we're on, the good one, or one of the bad ones.

    In two months we'll turn on Star Trek TOS, and Spock will be sporting a goatee, Uhura will be fending off Sulu with a stiletto, and Kirk will be a raving lunatic who dispatches political enemies with the press of a button. shudders
    posted by Gordion Knott at 1:51 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]


    We're already in the dark timeline where Donald Trump is Biff Tannen.

    And the 11th and 12th Doctors are Rowan Atkinson and Craig Ferguson. Come to think of it, that's the wacky timeline.
    posted by oneswellfoop at 1:56 AM on September 17, 2016 [1 favorite]


    I think there are a lot of people that just plain don't give a fuck about "qualifications" or "business experience" or whatever, they just want to get a rise out of the people who actually see the seriousness of political issues. (One of them is running for President.)

    Fantastic comment, tivalasvegas.
    posted by Atom Eyes at 2:29 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]


    wait
    Howard Stern ran for governor of New York?
    posted by angrycat at 3:19 AM on September 17, 2016


    Briefly a couple of times. His name never appeared on a ballot, as I recall.
    posted by Etrigan at 5:13 AM on September 17, 2016


    Guest Demon on "Supernatural" on the CW.

    Snookie and Paris Hilton have both made appearances (don't ask me how I know). I'd love to see them cut Trump's monster head off once he loses and is forced to do cameos on CW.
    posted by dis_integration at 6:26 AM on September 17, 2016


    The new thread started early.
    posted by kingless at 6:41 AM on September 17, 2016 [3 favorites]


    It's not really about his assumptions in the magnitude of variance. I think his assumptions are reasonable, as are Silver's even though they are different; we honestly don't know a lot about how presidential elections go given that we have only a handful of good comparisons (maybe 15 elections in the polling era, 6 in the current highly partisanized era and 4 in the internet era). The assumption that he's got wrong is the assumption that the variance in one state is independent of the variance in another state, which I think is fundamental.

    Of course it's about his assumptions in the magnitude of variance. That's your whole point about why states being correlated matters to the long-term prediction - if they are correlated beyond what the polls already tell us, it should increase the variance of the prediction. Wang and Silver have fundamentally different approaches. Wang's is by far the most parsimonious model. Silver likes to include every possible thing that could potentially impact a race - and probably a bunch that don't, but we don't know because he won't tell us what's in the sauce. Wang's is a correlational model; Silver's is a mix between correlational and mechanistic. Wang estimates variance from the previous elections. Silver estimates the variance by making assumptions about how correlated the state votes are beyond what is already captured in the polls.

    Again, I don't see an easy way to find data to support the notion that one or the other is over- or under-estimating the variance in their model. Wang's predictions have, so far, still been within his historic C.I.'s. Do you have any other evidence that might support the idea that he's too conservative?
    posted by one_bean at 9:09 AM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]


    And the 11th and 12th Doctors are Rowan Atkinson and Craig Ferguson. Come to think of it, that's the wacky timeline.

    I'm in! So, who's President? Oooh is it Kevin Kline?
    posted by petebest at 9:11 AM on September 17, 2016


    Of all the baffling things about Trump, his astonishingly crass taste is one of the bafflingest.

    You clearly don't spend as much time looking at high end real estate listings as I do.

    Rich people have the money to make truly huge mistakes. It's kind of like the way super-cars hit lamp posts, split in two and then explode rather than get into small fender benders like a KIA.
    posted by srboisvert at 11:57 AM on September 17, 2016 [6 favorites]


    Again, I don't see an easy way to find data to support the notion that one or the other is over- or under-estimating the variance in their model.

    Even more fun, the data required to get a really good empirical sense of the variance of presidential vote outcomes conditional on any particular aggregated polling level in September won't exist for hundreds or thousands of years. I mean, there have only been ten election outcomes since the creation of the modern primary system. If you want even just 100, you'll have to wait another 352 years after this November and hope nothing major changes in the meantime.
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:43 PM on September 17, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Field report from Tarrant County, Texas (Fort Worth, Arlington, surrounding burbs): Last week's attempt to volunteer was a bust. Seems no one updated the HFA website that there would be no election activities on Sept 11 (oops), so I sat in my car in front of the local Dem HQ for awhile until it was clear no one was coming to unlock the doors...

    I got hold of the volunteer coordinator a few days ago and got myself on the local mailing list (and signed up to be a Deputy Voter Registrar!). Today my sister and I canvassed sometime-democratic voters in Arlington. About 1/3 to 1/2 didn't answer their doors but the majority of those who did were rational folks who were delighted to tell us they would be straight-ticket voting in November. We ran into couple of dude bros who were not registered and couldn't be bothered to care. One delightful older man - a former Baptist preacher - in a Jesus baseball cap talked to us for awhile about all the ways Trump was a Bad Man. All in all it was sweaty but satisfying, and we finished our shift feeling way less depressed about the future. We plan to canvass again next weekend.
    posted by tingting at 4:33 PM on September 17, 2016 [22 favorites]


    Ergot contaminated grains arent used to make bread.

    PRES. TRUMP: Look, nobody has an explanation for all the convulsions and mania spreading across the country. Nobody! But let me tell you, a lot of smart people, a lot of very smart people who have studied these things, are saying its witchcraft. So were gonna have some trials, and well get to the bottom of this.
    I've said this before, but The Sheep Look Up has never been more relevant.
    posted by Rangi at 9:34 PM on September 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


    Brunner's been on my to-be-read list for, uh, decades now, but the problem is that people always talk about how relevant his work is to the most depressing parts of our modern world, and I figure I might as well just read another fluffy wish-fulfillment book instead. Preferably with magical ponies.
    posted by asperity at 9:20 AM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


    The Sheep Look Up is bleak even for Brunner, so yeah, if that's not your cup of tea then skip it. But the parallels are eerie sometimes. The terrorist bogeyman is South American instead of Middle Eastern, and computers are still room-sized mainframes, but that's about it.
    posted by Rangi at 10:05 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


    The terrorist bogeyman is South American instead of Middle Eastern, and computers are still room-sized mainframes

    Change it to Central American and both can be said of Trump.
    posted by maxsparber at 10:43 AM on September 23, 2016


    Juice Rap News Election Coverage
    posted by jeffburdges at 12:35 PM on September 24, 2016


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