Inviting the Darkness Home
September 23, 2016 12:40 PM Subscribe
Sarah Marshall explores Why America Will Never Stop Trying To Solve JonBenét Ramsey’s Murder:
In her CNN appearance, even Patsy Ramsey described JonBenét’s death not just as a personal loss, but as part of an overarching sense that Americans had lost something larger . . . . In this case, ["justice"] does not mean that JonBenét Ramsey will come back to life, that she will grow up, that she will experience the childhood she had barely begun. It means, instead, that her death will finally be part of a story that makes sense, and that gives the public the sense of comfort that only such a story can provide.
I maintain that her brother Burke killed her by accident and her parents covered it up.
posted by all about eevee at 1:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by all about eevee at 1:01 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm certain it was the father. He was obviously no angel; no white man becomes the CEO of a billion-dollar corporation without committing some horrifying deeds, so who knows what other heinous acts he was capable of?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:03 PM on September 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Vacuous attempt to revive stale news.
posted by Segundus at 1:06 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 1:06 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I had forgotten the widespread saturation of the Satanic Cult moral panic that was the boogeymen of the late 80's and early 90's. There's still a lady on my city's Facebook local group that's REALLY into it.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Smith became a living symbol of all a mother must never imagine doing to her children, of all a human being simply could not be. After she was found guilty, Entertainment Tonight held a call-in poll where viewers, for 50 cents a vote, could say whether they believed she deserved to die in the electric chair.
Sometimes I look at things like the Trumpification of America (or the Harperization of Canada, until recently) and wonder if we're all becoming monsters, and it's actually a weird relief to be reminded that no, no, we were always monsters and we now just have different outlets to prove it with.
posted by Shepherd at 1:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [57 favorites]
Sometimes I look at things like the Trumpification of America (or the Harperization of Canada, until recently) and wonder if we're all becoming monsters, and it's actually a weird relief to be reminded that no, no, we were always monsters and we now just have different outlets to prove it with.
posted by Shepherd at 1:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [57 favorites]
I'm certain it was the father. He was obviously no angel; no white man becomes the CEO of a billion-dollar corporation without committing some horrifying deeds, so who knows what other heinous acts he was capable of?
I can't figure out if you're kidding or not, about the CEO=Evil Person part.
posted by ill3 at 1:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
I maintain that her brother Burke killed her by accident and her parents covered it up.
I guess that's actually the thesis of the new documentary, by way of some some dubious forensic bullshit? But like - what if he didn't? Then all the theories about how he did are super fucked up.
I have to say I unabashedly enjoy plenty of ghoulish true crime stuff so I'm not going to judge people for being interested in this story - but I never found this one especially compelling.
posted by atoxyl at 1:23 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I guess that's actually the thesis of the new documentary, by way of some some dubious forensic bullshit? But like - what if he didn't? Then all the theories about how he did are super fucked up.
I have to say I unabashedly enjoy plenty of ghoulish true crime stuff so I'm not going to judge people for being interested in this story - but I never found this one especially compelling.
posted by atoxyl at 1:23 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
There was/is such a creepy vibe surrounding the whole thing, it always made me shudder. It was that whole beauty pageant/"sexualization of children" aspect that always made me think there was something very, very, very, very ugly at the core of the death of this poor child.
And, yeah, I mean exactly what you're probably thinking I mean. But, I'm not about to speak it, 'cause massive fucking triggers.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
And, yeah, I mean exactly what you're probably thinking I mean. But, I'm not about to speak it, 'cause massive fucking triggers.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:29 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
This story needs a Faulkner to write it.
posted by chavenet at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 1:33 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
For a country whose faith in forensic science, bolstered by shows like "CSI", is absolute having a case where the police and FBI couldn't find evidence that pointed to any suspect this case was a shocker.
Of course, as the article astutely points out, the Ramsey's wealth and its ability to buy them top-notch legal assistance raised the bar for police far above what a poor family could have managed.
posted by tommasz at 1:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Of course, as the article astutely points out, the Ramsey's wealth and its ability to buy them top-notch legal assistance raised the bar for police far above what a poor family could have managed.
posted by tommasz at 1:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
This story needs a Faulkner to write it.
Or Andrew Vachss.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Or Andrew Vachss.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
He was obviously no angel; no white man becomes the CEO of a billion-dollar corporation without committing some horrifying deeds, so who knows what other heinous acts he was capable of?
Steve Ballmer's freakout has just taken on a whole new meaning for me. Apparently he just wanted to eat them the whole time.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Steve Ballmer's freakout has just taken on a whole new meaning for me. Apparently he just wanted to eat them the whole time.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The recent "docu-series" did pretty much convince me that it was the brother, but talk about a creepy vibe, that docu-series freaked me out more than I can say. It seemed so prurient, and the guy at the helm (not naming names), on the one hand, seems to have great credentials but he is fucking EVERYWHERE these days, like creepily everywhere.
posted by janey47 at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by janey47 at 1:41 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree, janey47. It was done with a very disturbing lack of dignity for the human beings at the center of events (even presuming one or more of them is a killer).
posted by sallybrown at 1:44 PM on September 23, 2016
posted by sallybrown at 1:44 PM on September 23, 2016
I guess that's actually the thesis of the new documentary, by way of some some dubious forensic bullshit? But like - what if he didn't? Then all the theories about how he did are super fucked up.
Yeah, I always felt like such a killjoy when I brought this up when people were speculating about the true culprit in Serial and Making a Murderer. It always felt so ghoulish and lacking in empathy to me, like treating the lives of real people like a mystery novel. And most of all, when you are identifying family members of the dead person as culprits for entertainment.
With Making a Murderer, I remember a lot of people speculated early on that the brother of the dead woman was responsible because he came off as "creepy" in the documentary, despite there not being any motive or any evidence at all that connected him with the crime.
I can't imagine how that would feel. Especially in this particular case, where JonBenet's brother was only nine years old when he was accused. In this case, whatever the truth is, he is a victim. Even if he truly did kill her by accident, he would still not be culpable.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:57 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Yeah, I always felt like such a killjoy when I brought this up when people were speculating about the true culprit in Serial and Making a Murderer. It always felt so ghoulish and lacking in empathy to me, like treating the lives of real people like a mystery novel. And most of all, when you are identifying family members of the dead person as culprits for entertainment.
With Making a Murderer, I remember a lot of people speculated early on that the brother of the dead woman was responsible because he came off as "creepy" in the documentary, despite there not being any motive or any evidence at all that connected him with the crime.
I can't imagine how that would feel. Especially in this particular case, where JonBenet's brother was only nine years old when he was accused. In this case, whatever the truth is, he is a victim. Even if he truly did kill her by accident, he would still not be culpable.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:57 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
There is little or no actual evidence against Burke, so I find it particularly cruel to accuse a 9 year old.
Most of the circumstantial, physical and psychological evidence points toward an intruder. Circumstantial evidence against the Ramseys is ambiguous or weak.
Unfortunately no other suspect was discovered, and the Ramseys did not fit the common expectation of grieving parents.
They deserve a large settlement from CBS in my opinion
posted by knoyers at 2:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
Most of the circumstantial, physical and psychological evidence points toward an intruder. Circumstantial evidence against the Ramseys is ambiguous or weak.
Unfortunately no other suspect was discovered, and the Ramseys did not fit the common expectation of grieving parents.
They deserve a large settlement from CBS in my opinion
posted by knoyers at 2:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
I haven't watched the new documentary, but it seems to me that if it had been her brother, it would have been significantly easier for the whole family to just own up to it right away and try to bury the story. Talk to your lawyer(s), tell the cops the truth quietly, and let people's respect for a family tragedy do the work in keeping it from becoming a huge mystery sensation.
Unless the new theory explains why that didn't happen, I have a hard time giving it much credence, and it is pretty gross to be going down this path with a man who has had to live with this tragedy his entire life.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:09 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Unless the new theory explains why that didn't happen, I have a hard time giving it much credence, and it is pretty gross to be going down this path with a man who has had to live with this tragedy his entire life.
posted by sparklemotion at 2:09 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
no white man becomes the CEO of a billion-dollar corporation without committing some horrifying deeds, so who knows what other heinous acts he was capable of?
Why does race or gender matter here? Legitimately flummoxed.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:18 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Why does race or gender matter here? Legitimately flummoxed.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:18 PM on September 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
The media has successfully burrowed this crime into the brain of anyone old enough to remember, so we all get to have it pop into thoughts every single Christmas holiday. Thanks, I guess.
posted by Beholder at 2:23 PM on September 23, 2016
posted by Beholder at 2:23 PM on September 23, 2016
One of the best things about millenials is that they don't know about shitty tabloid trash news from before their time. Sorry any of this shit has been digitized and that people feel the need to bring it up as TMZ and E! history is recycled along with actual news, but - at least look to the bright side in that the poor video quality and photo resolution means it will eventually be sidelined in favor of other trash stories.
posted by Nanukthedog at 2:33 PM on September 23, 2016
posted by Nanukthedog at 2:33 PM on September 23, 2016
Most of the circumstantial, physical and psychological evidence points toward an intruder. Circumstantial evidence against the Ramseys is ambiguous or weak.
Unfortunately no other suspect was discovered, and the Ramseys did not fit the common expectation of grieving parents.
That's not my recollection, and circumstantial evidence can be as damning as direct. I'm annoyed by conclusion citing/interpreting one and two facts when the case is the case it is because it's not simple. I'll mention: the clusterfuck/class issue of the police and house search and John Ramsey conducting "one last search" to emerge from the basement with the body, having contaminated the scene. The ransom note.
The parents' immediate travel and media statements/complaints in Atlanta about their treatment by Boulder police. The interview at a secret location which was, at first, only aired in Denver, CO. (I taped it.)
I want to add the sexualization of children is the DNA of the tragedy, but I don't mean in terms of whodunnit? An unsolved case and Patsy's obsession with pageants was/is its macabre potency. The cultural shock and imposition include Little Miss Sunshine for crying out loud.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 2:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Unfortunately no other suspect was discovered, and the Ramseys did not fit the common expectation of grieving parents.
That's not my recollection, and circumstantial evidence can be as damning as direct. I'm annoyed by conclusion citing/interpreting one and two facts when the case is the case it is because it's not simple. I'll mention: the clusterfuck/class issue of the police and house search and John Ramsey conducting "one last search" to emerge from the basement with the body, having contaminated the scene. The ransom note.
The parents' immediate travel and media statements/complaints in Atlanta about their treatment by Boulder police. The interview at a secret location which was, at first, only aired in Denver, CO. (I taped it.)
I want to add the sexualization of children is the DNA of the tragedy, but I don't mean in terms of whodunnit? An unsolved case and Patsy's obsession with pageants was/is its macabre potency. The cultural shock and imposition include Little Miss Sunshine for crying out loud.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 2:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I can not speak for America but I am well beyond that story. If it needs retelling, why not a film, such as the recent one on O.J., another killing that fascinated the nation and did well as tv show.
posted by Postroad at 2:38 PM on September 23, 2016
posted by Postroad at 2:38 PM on September 23, 2016
I maintain that her brother Burke killed her by accident and her parents covered it up.
But like - what if he didn't? Then all the theories about how he did are super fucked up.
I confess to watching the whole two-parter from start to finish. I think the theory that the brother did it accidentally and the parents covering it up makes the most sense. But yeah, it surprised me that you could legally do a forensic exam and declare guilt publicly like that with no trial. Yet, voyeurs like me feed it, I suppose.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 2:41 PM on September 23, 2016
But like - what if he didn't? Then all the theories about how he did are super fucked up.
I confess to watching the whole two-parter from start to finish. I think the theory that the brother did it accidentally and the parents covering it up makes the most sense. But yeah, it surprised me that you could legally do a forensic exam and declare guilt publicly like that with no trial. Yet, voyeurs like me feed it, I suppose.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 2:41 PM on September 23, 2016
There was/is such a creepy vibe surrounding the whole thing, it always made me shudder. It was that whole beauty pageant/"sexualization of children" aspect that always made me think there was something very, very, very, very ugly at the core of the death of this poor child.
As I recall the public sense at the time was that the parents, particularly the mother, had attracted a predator by sexualizing their young child. Pre internet child beauty pageants weren't widely known, I know it was the first time I saw little girls dressed up like that and doing sexy dance moves and it was legitimately shocking to a lot of people. I'd never seen a little girl sexualized like that unless she was playing a child prostitute in a movie or something. There was a definite sense of "what did they expect?"
It want until months later that the conspiracy stories about the family started to swirl. And never stopped.
posted by fshgrl at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
As I recall the public sense at the time was that the parents, particularly the mother, had attracted a predator by sexualizing their young child. Pre internet child beauty pageants weren't widely known, I know it was the first time I saw little girls dressed up like that and doing sexy dance moves and it was legitimately shocking to a lot of people. I'd never seen a little girl sexualized like that unless she was playing a child prostitute in a movie or something. There was a definite sense of "what did they expect?"
It want until months later that the conspiracy stories about the family started to swirl. And never stopped.
posted by fshgrl at 2:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
> no white man becomes the CEO of a billion-dollar corporation without committing some horrifying deeds
Okay, so I agree with you on two important points:
1.) Corporate America is unethcal
2.) White male privilege is very real, and it's very bad
I disagree with you that these facts merit publicly accusing an actual living person of murdering their own daughter while providing no evidence
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 2:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
Okay, so I agree with you on two important points:
1.) Corporate America is unethcal
2.) White male privilege is very real, and it's very bad
I disagree with you that these facts merit publicly accusing an actual living person of murdering their own daughter while providing no evidence
posted by a mirror and an encyclopedia at 2:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [35 favorites]
Steve Ballmer's freakout yt has just taken on a whole new meaning for me. Apparently he just wanted to eat them the whole time.
Mmmmm. Developers. Very tender. Not stringy at all.
posted by ocschwar at 2:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mmmmm. Developers. Very tender. Not stringy at all.
posted by ocschwar at 2:58 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pre internet child beauty pageants weren't widely known, I know it was the first time I saw little girls dressed up like that and doing sexy dance moves and it was legitimately shocking to a lot of people. I'd never seen a little girl sexualized like that unless she was playing a child prostitute in a movie or something. There was a definite sense of "what did they expect?"
Yes, that's the core of it right there. The whole affair just radiated pedophilia and we had never seen that before (I know I hadn't) It was so hard not to suspect the parents of something because of the combination of sexualization and then refusing to cooperate with the police. So in a sense, the theory about the brother almost comes as a relief that they probably weren't as screwed up as we thought.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 3:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yes, that's the core of it right there. The whole affair just radiated pedophilia and we had never seen that before (I know I hadn't) It was so hard not to suspect the parents of something because of the combination of sexualization and then refusing to cooperate with the police. So in a sense, the theory about the brother almost comes as a relief that they probably weren't as screwed up as we thought.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 3:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
So in a sense, the theory about the brother almost comes as a relief that they probably weren't as screwed up as we thought.
If you're speculating about how the documentary was pitched, that a new angle could further exploit a tragedy for profit, I agree. But otherwise I can't.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 3:26 PM on September 23, 2016
If you're speculating about how the documentary was pitched, that a new angle could further exploit a tragedy for profit, I agree. But otherwise I can't.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 3:26 PM on September 23, 2016
Can we maybe not be part of the problem and stop with the speculation on who did it here? This is reminding me of the discussion of the woman that disappeared and stole an identity and moved to Texas - readers here were suggesting that there was sexual abuse after reading the article which didn't have a lot of detail. Playing internet detective is not what I think of as the best of the web.
posted by Candleman at 3:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Candleman at 3:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Why does race or gender matter here? Legitimately flummoxed.
I assumed it was an intentional inversion of the sort of weirdness we heard about the mom.
posted by atoxyl at 3:38 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
I assumed it was an intentional inversion of the sort of weirdness we heard about the mom.
posted by atoxyl at 3:38 PM on September 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
This story needs a Faulkner to write it.
Or Andrew Vachss.
Would you accept Joyce Carol Oates?
posted by Flannery Culp at 3:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or Andrew Vachss.
Would you accept Joyce Carol Oates?
posted by Flannery Culp at 3:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you're speculating about how the documentary was pitched, that a new angle could further exploit a tragedy for profit, I agree. But otherwise I can't.
sorry I realize now how weird my comment about the brother's possible guilt sounded. But I was thinking about the original response to the crime so many years ago-- people insinuated molestation (like some kind of snuff situation), child porn and all kinds of things. I think that's why this sticks in the public consciousness so much (in addition to the media frenzy, or as part of the media frenzy*) because it was so creepy to consider parents being involved in a possible sexually-motivated murder of their own child. It was as lurid as it gets. I think that's one of the central theories that really shook people up.
*in the documentary (or whatever you want to call it) they did talk about how this case appeared during a slow news cycle (in an era much different from our more instantaneously-generated news coverage) and how a local crime got put all over the national news because of a slow news day.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 3:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
sorry I realize now how weird my comment about the brother's possible guilt sounded. But I was thinking about the original response to the crime so many years ago-- people insinuated molestation (like some kind of snuff situation), child porn and all kinds of things. I think that's why this sticks in the public consciousness so much (in addition to the media frenzy, or as part of the media frenzy*) because it was so creepy to consider parents being involved in a possible sexually-motivated murder of their own child. It was as lurid as it gets. I think that's one of the central theories that really shook people up.
*in the documentary (or whatever you want to call it) they did talk about how this case appeared during a slow news cycle (in an era much different from our more instantaneously-generated news coverage) and how a local crime got put all over the national news because of a slow news day.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 3:49 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It always felt so ghoulish and lacking in empathy to me, like treating the lives of real people like a mystery novel. And most of all, when you are identifying family members of the dead person as culprits for entertainment.
Like I said I can't personally condemn everybody who's into "true crime" stories because... I'd be a hypocrite. It's just - the brother was nine then and he's almost thirty now. Does it matter if he did it? He shouldn't be charged, and he won't. Who is possibly done any good by pinning this theory on him?
Serial and Making a Murderer are interesting cases because reviving interest in the crimes arguably did have the potential to do to some good - arguably it has. But they attracted the interest of so many people that it had a lot of weird side effects.
posted by atoxyl at 3:55 PM on September 23, 2016
Like I said I can't personally condemn everybody who's into "true crime" stories because... I'd be a hypocrite. It's just - the brother was nine then and he's almost thirty now. Does it matter if he did it? He shouldn't be charged, and he won't. Who is possibly done any good by pinning this theory on him?
Serial and Making a Murderer are interesting cases because reviving interest in the crimes arguably did have the potential to do to some good - arguably it has. But they attracted the interest of so many people that it had a lot of weird side effects.
posted by atoxyl at 3:55 PM on September 23, 2016
readers here were suggesting that there was sexual abuse after reading the article which didn't have a lot of detail. Playing internet detective is not what I think of as the best of the web.
We were referring to the show, which basically had a few hours of details in depth. It's also relevant as to whether or not it's acceptable (not to mention lawsuit-worthy) to publicly show a forensic investigation and proclaim, with expert testimony, that someone is guilty. It was a documentary, but it was also bit like a trial.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 3:56 PM on September 23, 2016
We were referring to the show, which basically had a few hours of details in depth. It's also relevant as to whether or not it's acceptable (not to mention lawsuit-worthy) to publicly show a forensic investigation and proclaim, with expert testimony, that someone is guilty. It was a documentary, but it was also bit like a trial.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 3:56 PM on September 23, 2016
Why does race or gender matter here? Legitimately flummoxed.
I assumed it was an intentional inversion of the sort of weirdness we heard about the mom.
Like - I think this
I'm certain it was the father. He was obviously no angel
was a parody of this:
particularly the mother, had attracted a predator by sexualizing their young child.
posted by atoxyl at 3:58 PM on September 23, 2016
I assumed it was an intentional inversion of the sort of weirdness we heard about the mom.
Like - I think this
I'm certain it was the father. He was obviously no angel
was a parody of this:
particularly the mother, had attracted a predator by sexualizing their young child.
posted by atoxyl at 3:58 PM on September 23, 2016
I was dating a guy who lived right down the street from the Ramsey's house at the time, I knew a lot of people who knew the father and think I'd even met him myself, so I didn't realize until much later how widespread the interest in the case was. I guess I just figured it was more localized.
But some time afterward, I was doing freelance work writing blurb/reviews of true crime books, and I got at least a couple of books about the case from publishers. There was one so gross I put it down almost immediately and told my editor we should ignore it and hope it fades into obscurity.
I do kind of understand why people are interested in true crime stories, especially those with an element of mystery to them. It appeals to several kinds of human curiosities all at once. And in this case, it was appealing to people not only for its morbidity and its puzzle like qualities, including strange clues like the ones you see on TV, but also because it shone a light on a strange subculture. At the time, I'm pretty sure most people had barely even heard of child beauty pageants. That case really raised awareness of the phenomenon, so by now, most people know it exists, but if you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never seen that sort of thing, it's shocking.
So I get it. I really do. I suffer from it myself. Sometimes, I listen to true crime podcasts and privately entertain my own ideas about them. But man, some people go overboard. There are too many hot takes and hamhanded amateur investigators out there. People make all kinds of unfounded accusations, they do shitty psychoanalyses of people's character and involvement based on whether they think their behaviors are 'normal' or not, and a disturbing number of people actually harass people involved.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:59 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
But some time afterward, I was doing freelance work writing blurb/reviews of true crime books, and I got at least a couple of books about the case from publishers. There was one so gross I put it down almost immediately and told my editor we should ignore it and hope it fades into obscurity.
I do kind of understand why people are interested in true crime stories, especially those with an element of mystery to them. It appeals to several kinds of human curiosities all at once. And in this case, it was appealing to people not only for its morbidity and its puzzle like qualities, including strange clues like the ones you see on TV, but also because it shone a light on a strange subculture. At the time, I'm pretty sure most people had barely even heard of child beauty pageants. That case really raised awareness of the phenomenon, so by now, most people know it exists, but if you can put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never seen that sort of thing, it's shocking.
So I get it. I really do. I suffer from it myself. Sometimes, I listen to true crime podcasts and privately entertain my own ideas about them. But man, some people go overboard. There are too many hot takes and hamhanded amateur investigators out there. People make all kinds of unfounded accusations, they do shitty psychoanalyses of people's character and involvement based on whether they think their behaviors are 'normal' or not, and a disturbing number of people actually harass people involved.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:59 PM on September 23, 2016 [12 favorites]
It always felt so ghoulish and lacking in empathy to me, like treating the lives of real people like a mystery novel.
I don't know; some maybe morbid fascination but some is genuine curiosity about human behavior and what a "normal' person is capable of, and also outrage over the idea of someone getting away with an atrocious crime. I think it also freaks people out when it's a "people next door" situation. That feels like it could happen to any one of us. But I get what you're saying about the lurid angle; there's no question that it was plastered all over the media.
Or what ernielundquist just said.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 4:00 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know; some maybe morbid fascination but some is genuine curiosity about human behavior and what a "normal' person is capable of, and also outrage over the idea of someone getting away with an atrocious crime. I think it also freaks people out when it's a "people next door" situation. That feels like it could happen to any one of us. But I get what you're saying about the lurid angle; there's no question that it was plastered all over the media.
Or what ernielundquist just said.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 4:00 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tldr the evidence does not support prosecution of anyone at this time and probabaly won't ever. The evidence against the family is strong enough to make it difficult to prove an intruder did it. The evidence of an intruder is strong enough to make it difficult to prove anyone in the family did it.
posted by humanfont at 4:04 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 4:04 PM on September 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
For a country whose faith in forensic science, bolstered by shows like "CSI", is absolute having a case where the police and FBI couldn't find evidence that pointed to any suspect this case was a shocker.
Thankfully now we've got a dose of just-so forensic psychology stories to make everyone feel better.
posted by atoxyl at 4:10 PM on September 23, 2016
Thankfully now we've got a dose of just-so forensic psychology stories to make everyone feel better.
posted by atoxyl at 4:10 PM on September 23, 2016
For what it's worth, I believed it was Burke before the CBS documentary came out.
posted by all about eevee at 4:25 PM on September 23, 2016
posted by all about eevee at 4:25 PM on September 23, 2016
I was dating a guy who lived right down the street from the Ramsey's house at the time, I knew a lot of people who knew the father and think I'd even met him myself, so I didn't realize until much later how widespread the interest in the case was. I guess I just figured it was more localized.
I lived in Denver and I don't understand how anyone could make this claim. Flying to Atlanta and defending themselves on CNN was novel-- and national. Everyone I knew somewhere else asked if I might know something more due to proximity. And the "secured" and conditional interview (I mentioned above) required the interviewer and crew meeting a proxy at a series of locations before beginning. It was a circus with national coverage from the get go.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 4:25 PM on September 23, 2016
I lived in Denver and I don't understand how anyone could make this claim. Flying to Atlanta and defending themselves on CNN was novel-- and national. Everyone I knew somewhere else asked if I might know something more due to proximity. And the "secured" and conditional interview (I mentioned above) required the interviewer and crew meeting a proxy at a series of locations before beginning. It was a circus with national coverage from the get go.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 4:25 PM on September 23, 2016
Stories like these are our modern-day fairy tales. Where the parents leave their children to die in the woods, or the wolf is waiting in your grandmother's clothes, or your husband has a room full of dead wives. We tell ourselves these stories to try to make sense of the senselessness all around us in the world.
posted by MsMolly at 4:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 4:36 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
I lived in Denver and I don't understand how anyone could make this claim.
I may or may not have had a TV at home at the time, but either way, I didn't watch any of that. I wasn't following the case closely in the papers either, so most of what I heard about it was from people I knew, most of whom worked in the same general industry and many in the same city as Ramsey did, so I chalked a lot of it up to that at the time. I remember some internet interest, I guess, but again, I wasn't paying close attention to that, either. I was pretty busy at the time.
Which kind of goes to my point about making assumptions and speculating about people. I mean, I'm not lying that I didn't really pay much attention or realize how much attention others were paying to it, but you're skeptical of that because people make assumptions about others based on their own experiences.
posted by ernielundquist at 4:56 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
I may or may not have had a TV at home at the time, but either way, I didn't watch any of that. I wasn't following the case closely in the papers either, so most of what I heard about it was from people I knew, most of whom worked in the same general industry and many in the same city as Ramsey did, so I chalked a lot of it up to that at the time. I remember some internet interest, I guess, but again, I wasn't paying close attention to that, either. I was pretty busy at the time.
Which kind of goes to my point about making assumptions and speculating about people. I mean, I'm not lying that I didn't really pay much attention or realize how much attention others were paying to it, but you're skeptical of that because people make assumptions about others based on their own experiences.
posted by ernielundquist at 4:56 PM on September 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
No, I'm skeptical for the reasons I stated. You lived and worked in Boulder? But were unaware of the national attention it received because the Ramseys drew attention to it on national television.
My point is-- the claim is incredible and its veracity requires your explanation of avoiding media outlets. That makes your experience and instance highly rare.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:01 PM on September 23, 2016
My point is-- the claim is incredible and its veracity requires your explanation of avoiding media outlets. That makes your experience and instance highly rare.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:01 PM on September 23, 2016
See but no. I didn't say that. I didn't live or work in Boulder. I would never live in Boulder. My boyfriend at the time lived here. At the time, I lived in Denver and I think that's the year my company transferred me from the Denver office to Westminster. I didn't find it necessary for me to fully elaborate on my living and working situation in order to avoid the appearance of deception or whatever. And I'm only doing it now because it's fortuitously illustrating the point I'm trying to make.
I'm seriously not leaving things out to befuddle you or anything, but you're still making a bunch of assumptions that you're not even aware of, and putting the onus on me to predict and clarify your misunderstandings preemptively. I didn't realize that my experience was so strange and foreign that I'd need to provide some sort of backstory to lend credibility to my experience. I mean, that would be such a strange thing to lie about I guess I figured that I could just state it outright.
But that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about with people doing amateur investigations and speculating about people involved in cases like this. You don't know the whole story about anyone, and it's unreasonable to expect that you can apply your experiences onto others like that. It's no big deal for me in this case, because all I'm suspected of is being deceptive about my awareness of some media event or whatever, but people are accused of horrific crimes based on similar speculations as well, and that is a big deal.
posted by ernielundquist at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [39 favorites]
I'm seriously not leaving things out to befuddle you or anything, but you're still making a bunch of assumptions that you're not even aware of, and putting the onus on me to predict and clarify your misunderstandings preemptively. I didn't realize that my experience was so strange and foreign that I'd need to provide some sort of backstory to lend credibility to my experience. I mean, that would be such a strange thing to lie about I guess I figured that I could just state it outright.
But that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about with people doing amateur investigations and speculating about people involved in cases like this. You don't know the whole story about anyone, and it's unreasonable to expect that you can apply your experiences onto others like that. It's no big deal for me in this case, because all I'm suspected of is being deceptive about my awareness of some media event or whatever, but people are accused of horrific crimes based on similar speculations as well, and that is a big deal.
posted by ernielundquist at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [39 favorites]
Pre internet child beauty pageants weren't widely known, I know it was the first time I saw little girls dressed up like that and doing sexy dance moves and it was legitimately shocking to a lot of people. I'd never seen a little girl sexualized like that unless she was playing a child prostitute in a movie or something.
It's the "pre-internet" aspect of the mess that makes my thoughts go where they do on this. Sure, it was "pre-internet" as we know it now, but there most definitely was an internet. More specifically, Usenet and BBS's. And, anyone familiar with that particular neck of the deep cyber woods of that era knows, you could find pretty much anything your dark heart desired. Any. Thing. My feeling has always been that this case was an inexcusable entertainment project gone horribly wrong.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's the "pre-internet" aspect of the mess that makes my thoughts go where they do on this. Sure, it was "pre-internet" as we know it now, but there most definitely was an internet. More specifically, Usenet and BBS's. And, anyone familiar with that particular neck of the deep cyber woods of that era knows, you could find pretty much anything your dark heart desired. Any. Thing. My feeling has always been that this case was an inexcusable entertainment project gone horribly wrong.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:28 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
increasingly, my interest in true crime is related to why i think i'm supposed to have an opinion about some scenario. what i think that does for me, what i think it does for anyone. why would i have an opinion about who killed this child?
i'm not saying this to express criticism of anyone who does. just that the ~mystery~ to me is more about why we take it for granted that we do and should. "existential fear of death" and "fear of human experiences without meaning" are, i suppose, answers, but i'm more interested in historically specific, contingent, concrete ones.
no, i'm no fun at parties, and no, i'm not judging anyone. really.
posted by listen, lady at 5:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
i'm not saying this to express criticism of anyone who does. just that the ~mystery~ to me is more about why we take it for granted that we do and should. "existential fear of death" and "fear of human experiences without meaning" are, i suppose, answers, but i'm more interested in historically specific, contingent, concrete ones.
no, i'm no fun at parties, and no, i'm not judging anyone. really.
posted by listen, lady at 5:35 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
The story attracted attention because it was fucking weird. The dressed-up, baby hooker pageant angle, filthy rich family angle, and how in the hell does a child die in her own house angle, and no one knows what happened.
That's why it's fascinating. Two adults, two kids, and one is dead and no one knows what happened.
Someone breaking into a house and killing a child and leaving completely unnoticed defies belief.
posted by shoesietart at 5:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
That's why it's fascinating. Two adults, two kids, and one is dead and no one knows what happened.
Someone breaking into a house and killing a child and leaving completely unnoticed defies belief.
posted by shoesietart at 5:37 PM on September 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
i mean: 'needing modern-day fairy tales' is an ahistorical or transhistorical answer, and whether or not it's true, leaning on it sort of lets us off the hook. like why do we need the fairy tale OF "the modern-day fairy tale"? "humans have always" is often a correct answer, but a pretty facile one.
posted by listen, lady at 5:38 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by listen, lady at 5:38 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
At some point in the mid 90s I stumbled into a late night club party in the meatpacking district in NYC where Michael Musto of the Village Voice was MC at a JonBenet Ramsey-themed drag pageant. The reach of this story was incredible.
Somewhat related: Not too long before, I supported my friend who was participating in a "pageant" for high school girls that was taking place in a hotel off a highway in suburban NJ. There were a handful of people there. The girls had to do the speech/talent/evening wear thing. My friend was salutatorian of our high school; I couldn't figure out why she was doing this. It felt like finding a secret, sad world at the time.
posted by armacy at 5:59 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Somewhat related: Not too long before, I supported my friend who was participating in a "pageant" for high school girls that was taking place in a hotel off a highway in suburban NJ. There were a handful of people there. The girls had to do the speech/talent/evening wear thing. My friend was salutatorian of our high school; I couldn't figure out why she was doing this. It felt like finding a secret, sad world at the time.
posted by armacy at 5:59 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I love JC Oates. When she's good, she's amazing. My Sister, My Love looks amazing.
Course, a Faulkner try at it would be awesome as well.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 6:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Course, a Faulkner try at it would be awesome as well.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 6:13 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
He was obviously no angel;
I feel bad that so many of you are completely missing the point Faint Of Butt was making there.
posted by mhoye at 6:14 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I feel bad that so many of you are completely missing the point Faint Of Butt was making there.
posted by mhoye at 6:14 PM on September 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm suspected of is being deceptive about my awareness of some media event or whatever...
I addressed the claim (versus you) clearly enough...we're talking past each other, so, no matter what, I'm as much to blame. Sorry about that. You qualified a claim and point about "witch hunts" by knowing a neighbor of the event and of having possibly met Ramsey...but then expressed its national character came as a surprise. I challenged how that's possible and you've explained you didn't follow the story.
I'd term that ironic: An unusual proximity to the event, but no sense of its reportage. I questioned how that's plausible and you explained. I think it's reaching to parallel my scrutiny of a claim on a forum and a murder, but, okay. This business of online sleuths brought the house down over at Reddit one, or two, years ago. It's a good point.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 6:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I addressed the claim (versus you) clearly enough...we're talking past each other, so, no matter what, I'm as much to blame. Sorry about that. You qualified a claim and point about "witch hunts" by knowing a neighbor of the event and of having possibly met Ramsey...but then expressed its national character came as a surprise. I challenged how that's possible and you've explained you didn't follow the story.
I'd term that ironic: An unusual proximity to the event, but no sense of its reportage. I questioned how that's plausible and you explained. I think it's reaching to parallel my scrutiny of a claim on a forum and a murder, but, okay. This business of online sleuths brought the house down over at Reddit one, or two, years ago. It's a good point.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 6:24 PM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I encountered the little girl documenting a child beauty pageant for a "look at those freaky Americans" piece for a European magazine. The whole scene was very weird and pretty disturbing, but mostly it just seemed to be driven by overwrought mothers who wanted to play dress-up with their daughters. Creepy, but mostly a low level scam by the pageant organizers. I didn't even remember I'd been near Jon Benet Ramsey till way after the murder.
Years later, I stumbled into a job where I spent a week or so with the Ramseys in Atlanta, when they were working with Lin Wood (the attorney who represented Richard Jewell, who'd been falsely accused of the '96 Olympics bombing). I never mentioned our previous crossing.
I guess that really, all I chimed in to say, is that it's really hard to have an opinion about someone else's tragedy when you're face to face with two broken people, one of whom is fighting cancer. They were just so devastatingly sad. Any ill-informed opinion I could come up with seemed irrelevant.
Watching TV news and the local papers railroad Jewell, a man who saved a lot of lives, left me with such a deep, abiding distrust of media narratives that I can't believe people still get drawn in. I'm guilty of it, too.
All I personally know is that the surviving family seemed desperately heartbroken. I don't have a right to an opinion on anything else.
posted by rock swoon has no past at 8:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Years later, I stumbled into a job where I spent a week or so with the Ramseys in Atlanta, when they were working with Lin Wood (the attorney who represented Richard Jewell, who'd been falsely accused of the '96 Olympics bombing). I never mentioned our previous crossing.
I guess that really, all I chimed in to say, is that it's really hard to have an opinion about someone else's tragedy when you're face to face with two broken people, one of whom is fighting cancer. They were just so devastatingly sad. Any ill-informed opinion I could come up with seemed irrelevant.
Watching TV news and the local papers railroad Jewell, a man who saved a lot of lives, left me with such a deep, abiding distrust of media narratives that I can't believe people still get drawn in. I'm guilty of it, too.
All I personally know is that the surviving family seemed desperately heartbroken. I don't have a right to an opinion on anything else.
posted by rock swoon has no past at 8:51 PM on September 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Huh. So I haven't watched the CBS one yet (well, I watched the first like 10 minutes but taped the rest) but I watched the A&E one that preceded it and whoa, did I come away with the opposite impression as (it seems) the majority of people in this thread have.
I was youngish at the time that it happened and I as I didn't pay as close attention to the news as I do now, probably only read a few articles about the case in People or something.
Unfortunately no other suspect was discovered, and the Ramseys did not fit the common expectation of grieving parents.
This story reminds me in some ways of the Azaria Chamberlain case, which is the famous case in Australia in the 80s where a baby girl was taken and killed by a dingo. Despite the denials of both parents, the mother was found guilty of murder, and the father as an accessory, with the mother spending three years in prison before being released. It took 32 years for the coroner to officially confirm that the parents didn't kill her.
The media (and public's) suspicion towards the mother in particular is where there seem to be so many parallels between the Chamberlain and Ramsey cases:
The Chamberlain trial was the most publicised in Australian history. Given that most of the evidence presented in the case against Lindy Chamberlain was later rejected, the case is now used as an example of how media and bias can adversely affect a trial.
Public and media opinion during the trial was polarised, with "fanciful rumours and sickening jokes" and many cartoons. In particular, antagonism was directed towards Lindy Chamberlain for reportedly not behaving like a "stereotypical" grieving mother. Much was made of the Chamberlains' Seventh-day Adventist religion, including false allegations that the church was actually a cult that killed infants as part of bizarre religious ceremonies, that the family took a newborn baby to a remote desert location, and that Lindy Chamberlain showed little emotion during the proceedings.
One anonymous tip was received from a man, falsely claiming to be Azaria's doctor in Mount Isa, that the name "Azaria" meant "sacrifice in the wilderness" (it actually means "God helped"). Others claimed that Lindy Chamberlain was a witch.
The press appeared to seize upon any point that could be sensationalised. For example, it was reported that Lindy Chamberlain dressed her baby in a black dress. This provoked negative opinion, despite the trends of the early 1980s, during which black and navy cotton girls' dresses were in fashion, often trimmed with brightly coloured ribbon, or printed with brightly coloured sprigs of flowers. (Wiki)
It also reminds me a little of the Meredith Kercher/Amanda Knox case and coverage. When that happened (2007), I was living in the UK, where Meredith Kercher was from. I read and watched a lot of coverage of it and saw plenty of documentaries, news programs, reenactments, etc. In my mind at the time, it seemed so clear that Amanda Knox had either murdered Kercher or at the very least, knew something about it.
I moved back to the US in 2010, which is the year before Knox was acquitted and returned to the US. The difference in the coverage between the two countries could have not been more stark. When the 2010 trial started just after I moved back, I kind of assumed that the general sentiment was that she was guilty because that was the general feeling in the UK. I found exactly the opposite. So I watched and read a few US-centered things about the case, which strongly influenced my thinking in the other direction.
I've given up trying to figure out the Knox case, but it was a good lesson for me in not only how much framing matters, but actually how vulnerable to it we really are. Not to mention all the ambient and weird thinking we have about women and how they should react or behave in any given situation, which only muddies the waters more.
I would highly recommend the A&E special to anyone who is interested.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
I was youngish at the time that it happened and I as I didn't pay as close attention to the news as I do now, probably only read a few articles about the case in People or something.
Unfortunately no other suspect was discovered, and the Ramseys did not fit the common expectation of grieving parents.
This story reminds me in some ways of the Azaria Chamberlain case, which is the famous case in Australia in the 80s where a baby girl was taken and killed by a dingo. Despite the denials of both parents, the mother was found guilty of murder, and the father as an accessory, with the mother spending three years in prison before being released. It took 32 years for the coroner to officially confirm that the parents didn't kill her.
The media (and public's) suspicion towards the mother in particular is where there seem to be so many parallels between the Chamberlain and Ramsey cases:
The Chamberlain trial was the most publicised in Australian history. Given that most of the evidence presented in the case against Lindy Chamberlain was later rejected, the case is now used as an example of how media and bias can adversely affect a trial.
Public and media opinion during the trial was polarised, with "fanciful rumours and sickening jokes" and many cartoons. In particular, antagonism was directed towards Lindy Chamberlain for reportedly not behaving like a "stereotypical" grieving mother. Much was made of the Chamberlains' Seventh-day Adventist religion, including false allegations that the church was actually a cult that killed infants as part of bizarre religious ceremonies, that the family took a newborn baby to a remote desert location, and that Lindy Chamberlain showed little emotion during the proceedings.
One anonymous tip was received from a man, falsely claiming to be Azaria's doctor in Mount Isa, that the name "Azaria" meant "sacrifice in the wilderness" (it actually means "God helped"). Others claimed that Lindy Chamberlain was a witch.
The press appeared to seize upon any point that could be sensationalised. For example, it was reported that Lindy Chamberlain dressed her baby in a black dress. This provoked negative opinion, despite the trends of the early 1980s, during which black and navy cotton girls' dresses were in fashion, often trimmed with brightly coloured ribbon, or printed with brightly coloured sprigs of flowers. (Wiki)
It also reminds me a little of the Meredith Kercher/Amanda Knox case and coverage. When that happened (2007), I was living in the UK, where Meredith Kercher was from. I read and watched a lot of coverage of it and saw plenty of documentaries, news programs, reenactments, etc. In my mind at the time, it seemed so clear that Amanda Knox had either murdered Kercher or at the very least, knew something about it.
I moved back to the US in 2010, which is the year before Knox was acquitted and returned to the US. The difference in the coverage between the two countries could have not been more stark. When the 2010 trial started just after I moved back, I kind of assumed that the general sentiment was that she was guilty because that was the general feeling in the UK. I found exactly the opposite. So I watched and read a few US-centered things about the case, which strongly influenced my thinking in the other direction.
I've given up trying to figure out the Knox case, but it was a good lesson for me in not only how much framing matters, but actually how vulnerable to it we really are. Not to mention all the ambient and weird thinking we have about women and how they should react or behave in any given situation, which only muddies the waters more.
I would highly recommend the A&E special to anyone who is interested.
posted by triggerfinger at 8:53 PM on September 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
Buzzfeed is wondering why an unsolved murder generates media interest?
posted by Ideefixe at 9:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 9:07 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I live in Boulder and every few years, it seems like, the former Ramsey house goes up for sale and there's a flurry of "WHAT HAPPENED" rehashes and it all feels extremely prurient and grotesque somehow, like this crime attracted an entire group of vultures who just feed off of the crime in different ways. I get that it's an unsolved mystery and a tragedy, but every single player seems so compromised and the coverage grosses me out so deeply.
posted by mynameisluka at 9:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by mynameisluka at 9:19 PM on September 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
At the time of the murder, I was dating a dude in Boulder who lived just off the mall in a tiny but very expensive house. Every single time we left to grab breakfast or dinner we had to run the insane media gauntlet. The restaurants were all packed with reporters and camera crews grabbing a bite. It was an insane time. I was also present for the media circus surrounding the Timothy McVeigh trial, and I would say the media presence was larger for the JonBenet case.
posted by xyzzy at 12:14 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by xyzzy at 12:14 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Playing internet detective is not what I think of as the best of the web.
But just imagine if Metafilter solved this case. The ad revenue alone would be spectacular.
Next up: Al Capone's vault.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:23 AM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
But just imagine if Metafilter solved this case. The ad revenue alone would be spectacular.
Next up: Al Capone's vault.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:23 AM on September 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Flannery Culp: "This story needs a Faulkner to write it.
Or Andrew Vachss.
Would you accept Joyce Carol Oates?"
I definitely would. I did not know about this book, so thanks!
posted by chavenet at 12:24 AM on September 24, 2016
Or Andrew Vachss.
Would you accept Joyce Carol Oates?"
I definitely would. I did not know about this book, so thanks!
posted by chavenet at 12:24 AM on September 24, 2016
From what I can tell, Faint of Butt is using the language usually used against black victims. The "no angel" phrase is the tip-off, since that's what was used against Michael Brown.
posted by XtinaS at 4:51 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by XtinaS at 4:51 AM on September 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
Thanks XtinaS. I didn't get the subtle, but highly relevant reference.
posted by haiku warrior at 9:57 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by haiku warrior at 9:57 AM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh hey, I was thinking about how well-written I thought this article was and I realized that it's written by Sarah Marshall, who also wrote a really great article on Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan (FPP here) as well as the good article from earlier this year on scandalous women of the 90s (Monica, Marcia, Tonya and Anita, (FPP here).
What I'm trying to say is the stuff she writes about is 100% relevant to my interests. I think she's really talented.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:58 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
What I'm trying to say is the stuff she writes about is 100% relevant to my interests. I think she's really talented.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:58 AM on September 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I read TFA and watched the CBS show. I'm also a fan of Jim Clemente and Laura Richards from their podcast Real Crime Profiles. While I don't always like their bias towards the prosecution, Clemente is a former prosecutor, so I understand it. However, both of them have decades of experience in solving crimes, and Clemente specialised in behavioural analysis for both child abduction and child sexual assault.
I do believe that the team they brought together has a whole lot more competency in the field of investigation than any of the other shows produced. So while I am not 100% sold on Brock being the killer, I also think they make the point that even if it was him, he could not be found criminally responsible. And to me, the tapes of his interviews with police/child psychologists were the most compelling pieces of evidence.
I was also pretty shocked about the grand jury indictment. I understand that not every case is one you want to put before a jury, but if the Ramseys were indicted on all charges, then there is at least SOME element of a coverup by law enforcement. I believe that Clemente claimed on his podcast that FBI wasn't particularly welcomed by law enforcement at the time.
Personally, I'm glad they never were brought up on charges because I do believe they all suffered far more than the criminal justice system could punish them.
Thanks for posting the article, and triggerfinger, thanks for posting the others!
posted by guster4lovers at 4:40 PM on September 24, 2016
I do believe that the team they brought together has a whole lot more competency in the field of investigation than any of the other shows produced. So while I am not 100% sold on Brock being the killer, I also think they make the point that even if it was him, he could not be found criminally responsible. And to me, the tapes of his interviews with police/child psychologists were the most compelling pieces of evidence.
I was also pretty shocked about the grand jury indictment. I understand that not every case is one you want to put before a jury, but if the Ramseys were indicted on all charges, then there is at least SOME element of a coverup by law enforcement. I believe that Clemente claimed on his podcast that FBI wasn't particularly welcomed by law enforcement at the time.
Personally, I'm glad they never were brought up on charges because I do believe they all suffered far more than the criminal justice system could punish them.
Thanks for posting the article, and triggerfinger, thanks for posting the others!
posted by guster4lovers at 4:40 PM on September 24, 2016
But just imagine if Metafilter solved this case. The ad revenue alone would be spectacular.
Ha, such is my devotion to Metafilter that for a split second I actually thought "well, maybe we should try then."
posted by salvia at 8:58 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ha, such is my devotion to Metafilter that for a split second I actually thought "well, maybe we should try then."
posted by salvia at 8:58 PM on September 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ha, such is my devotion to Metafilter that for a split second I actually thought "well, maybe we should try then."
Can I play Nancy Grace?!?!?!?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:27 AM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can I play Nancy Grace?!?!?!?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:27 AM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Investigators have recently discovered new evidence that points to an illegal alien who used the alias "Mork" and who was well known in the Bolder coke scene.
posted by humanfont at 11:13 AM on September 25, 2016
posted by humanfont at 11:13 AM on September 25, 2016
...if the Ramseys were indicted on all charges, then there is at least SOME element of a coverup by law enforcement. I believe that Clemente claimed on his podcast that FBI wasn't particularly welcomed by law enforcement at the time.
From what I've read, I think you mean the District Attorney's office, not law enforcement generally. The Boulder police didn't all agree on who the murderer was, but they did all agree it was someone in the family and not an intruder. The grand jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey, but the DA decided not to pursue the case and made it sound like that was the decision of the grand jury instead of himself. The FBI were originally called in when it was still thought to be a kidnapping, and wouldn't normally be involved in a murder case.
posted by harriet vane at 5:14 AM on September 26, 2016
From what I've read, I think you mean the District Attorney's office, not law enforcement generally. The Boulder police didn't all agree on who the murderer was, but they did all agree it was someone in the family and not an intruder. The grand jury voted to indict John and Patsy Ramsey, but the DA decided not to pursue the case and made it sound like that was the decision of the grand jury instead of himself. The FBI were originally called in when it was still thought to be a kidnapping, and wouldn't normally be involved in a murder case.
posted by harriet vane at 5:14 AM on September 26, 2016
I hadn't followed the case in the 90s, so over the past couple days, (stuck in waiting rooms), I caught up on all of this.
It means, instead, that her death will finally be part of a story that makes sense, and that gives the public the sense of comfort that only such a story can provide.
After spending a bunch of time this weekend reading about the case, I don't think there would be any comfort, just the kind of head-shaking you do to clear your mind of something horrific and incomprehensible. Multiple investigators rule out the intruder theory, so what's left? Something pretty horrible to consider.
In his book Foreign Faction, investigator Chief Marshall James Kolar writes that he "found the totality of the circumstances comprising the investigative theory to be rather disquieting, and too disturbing...to express in a public forum." (He gets a bit more specific and graphic, though still opaque, in an AMA.)
In any case, there are really disturbing facts that must be explained. Best case, you've got an accidental head-bashing, failure to secure medical care, and the staging of an elaborate kidnapping (for profit) gone wrong including not just murder but a sexual assault. And, evidence of previous sexual assault.
In my opinion, the only comfort to be found is that the daughter is no longer suffering, that this case is far in the past, and that many investigators worked hard to bring the case to justice (even if they couldn't ultimately win a case in court).
posted by salvia at 9:42 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
It means, instead, that her death will finally be part of a story that makes sense, and that gives the public the sense of comfort that only such a story can provide.
After spending a bunch of time this weekend reading about the case, I don't think there would be any comfort, just the kind of head-shaking you do to clear your mind of something horrific and incomprehensible. Multiple investigators rule out the intruder theory, so what's left? Something pretty horrible to consider.
In his book Foreign Faction, investigator Chief Marshall James Kolar writes that he "found the totality of the circumstances comprising the investigative theory to be rather disquieting, and too disturbing...to express in a public forum." (He gets a bit more specific and graphic, though still opaque, in an AMA.)
In any case, there are really disturbing facts that must be explained. Best case, you've got an accidental head-bashing, failure to secure medical care, and the staging of an elaborate kidnapping (for profit) gone wrong including not just murder but a sexual assault. And, evidence of previous sexual assault.
In my opinion, the only comfort to be found is that the daughter is no longer suffering, that this case is far in the past, and that many investigators worked hard to bring the case to justice (even if they couldn't ultimately win a case in court).
posted by salvia at 9:42 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
Smith became a living symbol of all a mother must never imagine doing to her children, of all a human being simply could not be. After she was found guilty, Entertainment Tonight held a call-in poll where viewers, for 50 cents a vote, could say whether they believed she deserved to die in the electric chair.
Sometimes I look at things like the Trumpification of America (or the Harperization of Canada, until recently) and wonder if we're all becoming monsters, and it's actually a weird relief to be reminded that no, no, we were always monsters and we now just have different outlets to prove it with.
I agree.
I burst out laughing, though, when I read this, remembering most of what I've read by H.L. Mencken and George Carlin, both of whom pointed out that America attracted the zaniest of humans to its shores-unfortunately, Canada, being in such close proximity runs the risk of infection by default. And Mexico? In a class all its own, I suppose, owing to a severe colonial hangover.
Kiddie pageants are an atrocity. Jonbenet was lucky, in the sense that she didn't have to grow up with all the associated baggage. To date, I've not heard nor read of studies looking into the long-term effects of subjecting children to this practice that amounts to a precursor to kiddie porn.
I immediately thought of pageants as akin to dog shows. At least dogs are limited in their impact on society.
posted by girdyerloins at 5:00 AM on September 28, 2016
Sometimes I look at things like the Trumpification of America (or the Harperization of Canada, until recently) and wonder if we're all becoming monsters, and it's actually a weird relief to be reminded that no, no, we were always monsters and we now just have different outlets to prove it with.
I agree.
I burst out laughing, though, when I read this, remembering most of what I've read by H.L. Mencken and George Carlin, both of whom pointed out that America attracted the zaniest of humans to its shores-unfortunately, Canada, being in such close proximity runs the risk of infection by default. And Mexico? In a class all its own, I suppose, owing to a severe colonial hangover.
Kiddie pageants are an atrocity. Jonbenet was lucky, in the sense that she didn't have to grow up with all the associated baggage. To date, I've not heard nor read of studies looking into the long-term effects of subjecting children to this practice that amounts to a precursor to kiddie porn.
I immediately thought of pageants as akin to dog shows. At least dogs are limited in their impact on society.
posted by girdyerloins at 5:00 AM on September 28, 2016
« Older The laundry, for me, is like the frosting on the... | Ghosts! Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
So, we'll be never able to forget about what happened to this poor little girl, because it is so tempting for media organizations to dip their toes back in with some fluff and a giant picture of her pretty blonde smile.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:55 PM on September 23, 2016 [3 favorites]