How Introverted!

September 25, 2016 2:35 PM

Am I Introverted or Just Rude KJ Dell'Antonia asks in the NY Times, if the current, um, popularity, with introversion is just a way to excuse fundamental rudeness - caring more about what you want than what others want.
posted by Death and Gravity (100 comments total)

There is no research correlating the number of books on introversion with the number of cocktails not consumed by people not going out for drinks after work. But a spate of articles and social media posts on the glories of staying home in one’s pj’s suggests that I am not the only one who went overboard once the “introvert” label came to imply a deep thinker with a rich inner life rather than a lone gunman.

Someone wasn't able to duck out of boring-ass mandatory work drinks and is jealous of anyone that did.
posted by Artw at 2:42 PM on September 25, 2016 [33 favorites]

Being late to a party is fundamentally different than than not wanting to go to that party in the first place. Just because the author conflates those two things doesn't mean everyone does.
posted by demiurge at 2:44 PM on September 25, 2016 [19 favorites]

What we really need here is a differential diagnosis. I'll call Dr. House.
posted by srboisvert at 2:46 PM on September 25, 2016 [3 favorites]

I love the punchline.

That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness.
posted by adept256 at 2:47 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

Either it's finding oppressive social obligations a bore or its lupus.
posted by Artw at 2:47 PM on September 25, 2016 [44 favorites]

I find this kind of article frustrating. If you take it as given that some introverts are rude and others are polite, just as some extraverts are rude and others are polite, and that some rude people use their personality traits as an excuse to justify their rudeness - facts that most people would agree upon -then what does the article offer? It's a case study in one person wondering if they're sometimes impolite. Probably a good exercise for any of us, but I'm not sure it makes a great opinion piece, especially as it ends up reading as an open invitation to complain about other people being rude.
posted by langtonsant at 2:53 PM on September 25, 2016 [41 favorites]

What? Because extroverts value inane small talk (and gossip bitterly about those who don't), it makes me rude because my contribution to society is a little different. The key word here is "value". As I approach my first half century, I'm reflecting on a lot of my life choices and experiences, and there have been far too many where the people with the power get to decide what's right for everyone. Like physical touch - I only enjoy it with someone that I am sexually intimate with - all other touch despite a lifetime of trying to desensitize myself ranges from very uncomfortable to ruin-my-week-trauma. But if I avoid handshakes or hugs, I'm rude, unless/even if I explain. (Interesting article, though).
posted by b33j at 2:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [15 favorites]

I think introversion the concept and "introversion" the nonscientific book fad can both be critiqued, but this author essentially makes the wrong intellectual move by oversimplifying and reducing "Introversion is to self-centered as non-introversion is to other-centered". Those are two very different dichotomies with nontrivial interplay. The question now is, why would the author believe this?
posted by polymodus at 2:58 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

This strikes me as what I sometimes observe on facebook with older family members not really grokking the kind of straight-faced existentialist-nihilist-lite type humor that younger women like to indulge in and chiming in with something like "Don't be so down in the mouth, sweetheart, things aren't so bad."

We can respect our own introversion, and embrace the “quiet” people among us, without abandoning every challenging interaction. When I asked Ms. Cain (while interviewing her about introversion in teenagers) if self-indulgent introverts risked crossing the line into antisocial behavior — if we might, in fact, just be being rude — she laughed, and agreed. Sometimes, she said, “you have to consider the other person’s point of view instead of getting wrapped up in your own discomfort.”

And like this stuff about "Have I been prioritizing my own happiness above others???" *clutches pearls frantically* Give me a break.
posted by bleep at 2:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's like mistaking "gallows humor" for just "gallows" and rebuking us for it.
posted by bleep at 3:01 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

I always care more about what I want than what others want. It's called self-respect.
posted by a strong female character at 3:02 PM on September 25, 2016 [18 favorites]

Por que no los dos?
posted by Splunge at 3:05 PM on September 25, 2016

Wow, there is a lot of projection here. She's just saying that sometimes doing things you don't like is good for you — and actually makes you happier, according to some citations. It is wrapped in "maybe introversion is sometimes used as an excuse" because well, the Times likes to sell papers and have a contemporary hook. The key to me is the lateness anecdote — if you have never missed something really important, like a plane, then you can help being late and if you are choosing never to do that for other people, then maybe the balance between making yourself happy and being considerate is a little off. This is timely because maybe introverts are doing it too.
posted by dame at 3:05 PM on September 25, 2016 [11 favorites]

I disagree with that definition: healthy self respect is counting yourself exactly the same.

But this is otherwise bullocks. Introversion isn't about liking yourself more than other people, it's about being more sensitive to particular forms of stimulus.
posted by saulgoodman at 3:06 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

Or maybe that's just me because I'm one of those rare "social introverts" according to personality inventories, whatever those are worth.
posted by saulgoodman at 3:08 PM on September 25, 2016 [1 favorite]

In women, young women, the popular idea of introversion fills that weird social gap between "I know this is hard and tiring and so full of compromises I am compromising half my self away on people I don't necessarily like or want or need" and "I shouldn't complain, it's not that hard, it's just talking and stuff, it's going out, what's wrong with me?"

A narrative of sometimes just being tired of the work of social interaction, in a way that frames it as unavoidable to be tired of something other people think you shouldn't find tiring at all, is immensely valuable as that step between "urgh" and "oh DAMN I'm doing emotional labour? This is for real and legit work and there's nothing wrong with me that I get so worn out all the time by little stuff? That isn't so little?"
posted by E. Whitehall at 3:10 PM on September 25, 2016 [46 favorites]

Sorry, since when is it rude to decide not to attend a social outing?

I kind of thought the whole idea of being a human being with agency is that if I don't feel like going to work drinks or whatever, I can simply choose not to.

To me, rudeness is specifically putting someone out. Flaking or inconveniencing someone, insulting people, or being mean. Deciding that you would prefer not to go to a party is not rude, or even selfish. I can decide what social events I choose to attend.

Yesterday, despite the fact that I am an introvert and prefer spending quiet time at home or socializing with just a few people in a relaxing environment, I agreed to go apple picking with my fiance and a group of 10-12 other people. I agreed to do this because he wanted to, and because it's important to participate in large cluster-fuck group activities like this from time to time in order to maintain a social circle. I knew it would exhaust me and that I would probably prefer to do something else with my Saturday. However, it would not have been rude if we had declined the invitation. I suppose it could have been considered selfish if I'd denied my fiance the chance to go, or put him in the direct line of fire of "So where's Sara today? Doesn't she like apple picking?" type grilling. But even then, wow, that is asking a lot of emotional labor of people.
posted by Sara C. at 3:11 PM on September 25, 2016 [48 favorites]

From the article:"The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become." Granted. But can someone explain to my introverted self why the de facto standard method in our culture of bringing new people together is noisy, crowded gatherings? (Don't get me started on what it's like to be an introvert with hearing loss, either.)

I appreciate organizations--service clubs, special-interest groups, etc.--with the sense to schedule things like small committee meetings, work groups, and retreats with lots of opportunity for one-on-one interaction along with their large meetings and social events.
posted by Creosote at 3:13 PM on September 25, 2016 [17 favorites]

Meh.

I don't know whether I'm an introvert. I definitely have social anxiety: it's diagnosed and everything. I also have sensory processing issues, and I really don't do well in loud or distracting environments. Sometimes it would be rude to avoid loud parties, so I suck it up and go. But a lot of the time, nobody cares whether I go, and then I don't. I don't feel the need to make myself miserable for no reason other than some vague feeling that the way I am isn't the way a person should be.

So basically: sometimes you need to do unpleasant things so as not to be rude. But sometimes you don't need to do the unpleasant thing, and then it's ok not to do it. This seems like not something that requires a New York Times article?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:19 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Those casual interactions in dog runs and at kids’ hockey games are the ones that are most likely to cross social and economic barriers.

I don't know what a dog run is, and I don't have kids, so am I off the hook now?

We predict that we prefer solitude on our commute, for example, but consistently report a more positive experience when we connect with a stranger.

Unless that psych study was of introverts only, the results are meaningless because of course all the social people had a great time socializing and dominated the results. I don't like to be talked to on transportation and I wouldn't report a positive experience.

But, I have a general disinterest in people as well as being an introvert with social anxiety so I just can't be held responsible for knitting up the social fabric.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:23 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I look forward the corresponding article "Am I an extrovert for wanting to talk to people who don't want to be bothered, or am I just rude?"

I'm an introvert with social anxiety who lives with two extroverts who don't know how to entertain themselves. I'll retreat into my room for alone time, and inevitably, the mister or the kid will come in and literally stare at me until I entertain them. It's exhausting.

On the other hand, I just went on a trip to New Orleans where I shared a house with the mister and five of our friends. I set my boundaries in advance and had a wonderful time with my people.
posted by Ruki at 3:31 PM on September 25, 2016 [25 favorites]

This thread is getting too crowded for me. Bye.
posted by srboisvert at 3:37 PM on September 25, 2016 [12 favorites]

Dance break
posted by misfish at 3:52 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've always thought as introverts and extroverts as simply how one perfers to recharge.
For extraverts going out, being at the party is exciting, gives them energy and makes them feel good.

Being alone, or where it is too quiet is uncomfortable or draining and they fix it by going out.

For introverts it is the exact opposite - social events are exhausting and quiet is recharge so they fix it by staying in!

Perferences aren't rude.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:52 PM on September 25, 2016 [28 favorites]

Look, if you invite me to karaoke night, then you really have no idea who I am. I'm not the inconsiderate jerk in that scenario.
posted by adept256 at 3:55 PM on September 25, 2016 [27 favorites]

"Is everyone else extroverted, or just boorish?"
posted by Pinback at 4:15 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think the point is that introversion *can* be used as an excuse for rudeness, not that introversion=rudeness.

Just like extroversion can be used as an excuse for rudeness. "Oh you know me & my gift of gab, so how's your love life since the divorce? Anyway we should hang out some time, maybe grab a drink with the girls next week?"
posted by samthemander at 4:16 PM on September 25, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm not buying it. I'm an extreme introvert, and I also have a severe phobia about showing up late to anything. Because if I'm late, then people will notice, and maybe even try to talk to me. Precisely on time, seated behind a tall plant, that's my party strategy.
posted by Daily Alice at 4:24 PM on September 25, 2016 [25 favorites]

I always thought I was an extreme introvert until I married someone even more introverted than I am. It's been in interesting experience to hear myself say annoying things to her about going out and having fun in the same way that people have always said things like that to me.
posted by octothorpe at 4:45 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Suddenly, a resistance to social intercourse became, not just acceptable, but cool.

This is the complete total opposite of my experience.
posted by bukvich at 5:20 PM on September 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

Yeah I mean this "Suddenly, a resistance to social intercourse became, not just acceptable, but cool." is literally just jokes. It's not like it's actually ok to be this way.
posted by bleep at 5:25 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

Those casual interactions in dog runs and at kids’ hockey games are the ones that are most likely to cross social and economic barriers.


The people at my dog park are the most stereotypical of upper middle class twits and not interacting with them is my gift to myself.
posted by winna at 5:35 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

There's an interesting juxtaposition here between self-identifying as an introvert and using that as a justification for...pretty much whatever...and recognizing a broader social context, at least enough to accommodate it from time to time. The moral of the story might be even broader than that, now that I think about it.
posted by uosuaq at 6:03 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

People percolate up from the extroverted teens and twenties, into the more, hopefully introspective thirties, as they work, make homes for themselves. The young thing is a huge experiment, and people move into who they understand they are. Introversion is radical in a society that picks the pocket full time. Staying in is often enjoying the fruits of one's emotional labor of self understanding, and the fruits of one's own labors in general. This is not rudeness; it is the exclusivity of self care, and caring for others who are close to us. One on one is pretty exclusionary, and alone even more, but it is not rude. It is a choice.

There are supposedly, according to Gardiner, nine types of learners. Then there also must be at least nine social types. It is not rude to be who you are, unless you want to take a horror show on the road.
posted by Oyéah at 6:42 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

Does anyone write articles imploring extroverts to stay home with a good book on a Saturday night every once in a while?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:49 PM on September 25, 2016 [45 favorites]

Extroverts are presumably too busy going out to read scolding NYT articles. Or something.

The whole discourse on this is so contrived. Some people like going out, others don't. Film at fucking 11.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:53 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sorry I Murdered Everyone, But I'm an Introvert
posted by kmz at 7:07 PM on September 25, 2016 [9 favorites]

I suspect this boils down to "It offends extroverts if someone doesn't want to talk to them." Meanwhile, the introverts may be tired of thinking about everyone else for a damn change and it's offensive if they aren't wanting to pay more attention to other people.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:28 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm left wondering how much of this is gendered. As a woman I'm expected to want to socialize and if I don't I'm rude and selfish. Men, well, if they don't want to come to gatherings or don't feel like making small talk at social outings it's because they "work so hard all week" and "deserve time to themselves once in awhile." I've never heard anyone call a man selfish for kicking back and watching the game on Thanksgiving, which is a quasi social activity at best. Women are expected to be chattering with the other women in the kitchen during that event. Same holds for generic outings. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean my time is less valuable and that I owe it to someone who thinks I ought to be more social. That's not uncivil, it's taking care of my own needs before the needs of strangers at cocktail parties. All the functions and outings she describes, by the way, are things men routinely skip (in my experience) with nary a side eye.
posted by sockermom at 7:33 PM on September 25, 2016 [34 favorites]

sockermom: "Men, well, if they don't want to come to gatherings or don't feel like making small talk at social outings it's because they "work so hard all week" and "deserve time to themselves once in awhile." I've never heard anyone call a man selfish for kicking back and watching the game on Thanksgiving"

This has ... um, not been my experience even remotely. I'm not at all disagreeing with what you're saying about the pressures placed upon women, but what you describe as men's experience doesn't align with my experience as a genderqueer person who is almost universally perceived as male. I really don't want to turn this into a thread about gender, but I kind of find it frustrating to see those sorts of generalisations about men being thrown around. Again, I'm not trying to dispute any of your observations of men's behaviours, but my experience of living as one for most of my life really doesn't match up to that at all. My experience was (and is) one of feeling hugely pressured to be involved in a never ending series of complicated social events, and of being told off or called selfish by acquaintances of all genders when I tried to avoid some of them from time to time. I don't know - maybe I'm an outlier.
posted by langtonsant at 7:57 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

There's just such a weird framing with this popularity of extrovert v. introvert. Every single time, including such articles as "How to care for your introvert," the extrovert is the de facto normal. I'm delighted to be recognized, and I do love my people, I just need a few minutes by myself to recharge, THANKYOUVERYMUCH. I'm not a special snowflake. I don't need a list of rules to be dealt with. I love my friends dearly, and I love spending time with them, but I can't hang every night. Being in my thirties is the best time, because we have jobs and/or kids, so we have to make an effort to hang out. That's perfect.
posted by Ruki at 8:05 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

Being able to say "no" to other people is a fundamental right everybody should exercise regularly.

In fact, we've seen posts endlessly on the blue and the green about how people who can't, won't, or don't say no are harmed by their inability to decline.

Saying that other people don't have the right to refuse you denies their agency and their right to self determination.

Self determination is a fundamental human right. Everywhere suffering occurs, people often lack the degree of self-determination they would choose for themselves.

As long as they harm no others, people have the ability to choose how to live their lives. If no others are harmed, nobody has the right to judge them for anything at all, full stop.
posted by Strudel at 8:06 PM on September 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

I just wanted to see all my friends on my birthday. I didn't know it's a human rights violation. Just call and say you don't feel like being around people. I promise I know the feeling.
posted by adept256 at 8:12 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

The NYT will hire anyone to write anything these days. No matter how poorly constructed and opportunistic. Slow day for the editors, I guess.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 8:12 PM on September 25, 2016

Wow do I really hate this article. I mean, yes, we all know some people are rude everywhere, and some of those people will be introverts and some extroverts. But I really hate how articles like this frame, as Ruki said, extroverts as the normal ones, and introverts as something to be dealt with. Why am I the one who has to change my default settings?? I resent anyone who would tell me that I have to socialize in the way they expect. I'm extremely introverted, and I'm not about to change how I am. I wouldn't even know how. It is extremely draining for me to socialize or go out with large groups of people, so most of the time I'm not going to go to your party (though, yes I go sometimes, I'm not a complete hermit). And you know what? That should be fucking fine. I'm not anyone's slave and I'm going to do what I want as long as I'm not actively hurting others. People who don't understand that I'm just not friends with anymore.
posted by FireFountain at 8:14 PM on September 25, 2016 [6 favorites]

I was very much an introvert through high school and most of college. I very consciously expended a huge effort over about five years to change myself into (as far as I could tell) a pretty legitimate extrovert in my mid-20s. I think that served me well, for more than a decade. Now, I'm sort of lapsing a bit... maybe a mesovert?

I think all of those things are fine things to be. But, like the author of this piece, I recognize that it is possible to change yourself, with effort and time, and that can have benefits, for yourself and for others.

The idea that any of these ways of being is intrinsically rude or inferior is an overreaction. But the recent Internet cult of introversion is a real thing, and I think it's probably kept a lot of people from exploring different sides of themselves. Some of them might have gotten a lot out of that.
posted by gurple at 8:18 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

If you think I'm rude, don't include me in your social gatherings. Chances are we'll both be happier.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:43 PM on September 25, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, I'm kind of an extrovert. I'm not so much a center of attention person as a middle of everything person. I like people. I like to hear stories. I enjoy wandering around and watching what's happening on populated streets. I can be chatty, but I'm pretty sure I've never gotten upset/angry/put out by someone failing to make small talk. I mean, I don't like small talk. And I suck at it.

Sometimes I think my relative extroversion is higher these days because I work from home and live by myself and I can go hours (sometimes days) where I only talk to my cat, my imaginary friends Maud and Ambrose (kidding . . .kinda) and Warren, the frog that lives in the basement behind my washing machine. Most of my friends would rather not talk on the phone and it's not reasonable/healthy/financially sound for me to go out every night (or even most nights). I've had in-depth conversations with a number of cashiers at the local supermarket/baristas at coffeeshops/the man behind me in line at the post office, because I get starved for human interaction. I'm also socially awkward as hell. I'm lousing at making introductions. I'm terrified of embarrassment and totally guess-cultured all the way, so I'm always struggling to find the words to ask for what I want.

I don't take it personally when my friends (literally all introverts--Every. Single. One) don't want to go out. Most of them work in offices. They get to the end of the day and need a reprieve from the people, which is often the exact opposite place of where I want to be. On the other hand, it sucks when they flake, repeatedly. It sucks when they let you know they'd rather die in a fire than come to dinner at your house. It sucks when they only way way they'll communicate at all is occasional text message, even/especially when you're lonely and depressed. It sucks when you're stuck with a residual Do you actually still want to be my friend at all? Just be honest

I'm not enough of an extrovert that I never need alone time (I need lots of it). I understand. On the other hand ( and on preview):

I just wanted to see all my friends on my birthday. I didn't know it's a human rights violation. Just call and say you don't feel like being around people. I promise I know the feeling.
posted by thivaia at 8:46 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

I've been an introvert my whole life. But I have worked at jobs where I liked most of my coworkers, and attending the occasional after-work drinks event was a pleasure, although it's always a relief to go home at the end. And I like seeing my friends on their birthdays and having dinner with them! Well, as long as it's not all the time. Since I don't have many close friends since hitting adulthood, this usually isn't an issue.

I feel like the recent "introvert culture" stuff is mostly cool, but I'm not sure it gets through to the right people.
posted by wondermouse at 8:56 PM on September 25, 2016

Ugh, my mother will tell you the exact moment in my life that I became an introvert, which was after the traumatic end of an abusive relationship when I had just turned 19. She thinks I'm broken, almost twenty years later. She actually said this to me a few weeks ago. From my point of view, that's when I started loving myself enough to take care of my own emotional needs. I played the part of an extrovert, badly, throughout high school, and hated myself. I have a genuine sense of self now, and I like me, but my family sees me as less than. Being an introvert is not something that needs to be fixed. I like myself just fine, and my friends do, too.
posted by Ruki at 9:02 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

On the other hand, it sucks when they flake, repeatedly. It sucks when they let you know they'd rather die in a fire than come to dinner at your house. It sucks when they only way way they'll communicate at all is occasional text message, even/especially when you're lonely and depressed. It sucks when you're stuck with a residual Do you actually still want to be my friend at all? Just be honest

Respectfully thivaia, this isn't my experience with introverts at all...this has basically been my experience with people who are just jerks. Maybe you need better friends. Also, some people are afraid of conflict and flake because they don't feel it's socially acceptable to say no to something. In this case, I find it helps if you tell them that it's okay if they can't come or its inconvenient for them to come to your event...basically make them feel safe.

Most of my best friends are introverts....and they don't flake on me. I've dropped people like that from my life because I consider that the rude behavior, regardless of them being introverted or extroverted.
posted by FireFountain at 9:18 PM on September 25, 2016 [7 favorites]

this isn't my experience with introverts at all...this has basically been my experience with people who are just jerks.

I agree, but, as an introvert, I also agree with thivaia's observation, and the general thrust of the article. Fellow introverts, if you're not a rude jerk, it's cool, I don't think this article is for you. But I am seeing a lot of my age cohort using this 'new'social label to excuse their rudeness/jerkiness* and apparent unwillingness to extend courtesy in a social gathering (or apparent unwillingness to learn the necessary mores to get through it). To wit, I'm reacting to the various listicles being passed around that is undeniably superior in their tone about how small talk is just not for them. Right, okay. Maybe because I'm a neurodivergent, but I always thought I had to go around being prepared with 'scripts', and so I do, and then to see assholes feeling validated in their assholery....

otoh I wonder if it's a cultural cue that I missed out, because as a woman, I also never had any real problems saying no, and if the apparent speed this label caught on is because young women needed this validated reason to not be so giving all the time.

*i extend this to anyone who's ever shared a I'm an asshole before I have my first cup of coffee, haha! meme as well. but on the other hand, I've never really encountered such a meaninglessly garrulous and chatty culture like the American style of chit-chatting, so I reckon that must've been stressful to live in if you're just not that sort. on the other other hand, I tend to see it from my fellow countrypeople and we're not that chatty as a rule to begin with, so you're just a jerk who can't even try to be polite.
posted by cendawanita at 10:20 PM on September 25, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Being late to a party is fundamentally different than than not wanting to go to that party in the first place. Just because the author conflates those two things doesn't mean everyone does.

Yes! I am a super on-time person who is also an introvert. I basically like people most of the time; I am not shy most of the time; my social skills are good most of the time. It's just that, after I have peopled, I need a good chunk of no-people time in order to people again. All the other things (being late, being rude, being unresponsive, being the one who expects other people to do the emotional labor etc.) are not "introvert" characteristics. They are characteristics of either jerks making excuses or people who have other difficulties in their lives that may be comorbid with introversion but not an effect of it.
posted by rtha at 10:54 PM on September 25, 2016 [10 favorites]

I've had in-depth conversations with a number of cashiers at the local supermarket/baristas at coffeeshops

Jesus no, please don't do this. Working retail is hell enough already without the customers forcing you into some long-winded conversation you literally cannot escape (power differential between retail customer and employee) when you're being paid minimum wage to beep their groceries. I'm glad you feel better now, but you owe me an extra fifty for forcing me to be your therapist too, and I'm going to struggle with the rest of my day.
posted by Dysk at 11:59 PM on September 25, 2016 [8 favorites]

Danish, living in the Midlands. Both happen here, staff starting the conversation doubly so if you're their colleague. Leave me alone, I'm just trying to buy food and go home, my shift is over, I'm off the clock. Let me go home, damn it!
posted by Dysk at 12:16 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

From the article: “Have you ever missed a plane?” she asked. I had not. “Then you can help it. You just care more about yourself than about the needs of others.”

This is such utter bullshit though. The kind of schedule someone has on days they're travelling is so very different than the kind of schedule someone has in day-to-day life. Pretty much most of the time, because of the way air travel works, It makes you late to everything that comes after it, such that only an inexperiened traveller would plan anything immediately before or after air travel. I have a good 12 hour window between any plans and air travel on both sides if I can help it. But in my day-to-day, as a married person who works with a 45-minute commute via either bicycle or public transit, I am pretty much hourly under the influence of many forces outside my control. Today might be the day I get a flat tire or the train weirdly runs express to one station past mine, or mrs eustaceacrubb's mother might fall ill requiring me to comfort her before I head out for the day or I might help the lady with the big stroller get it up the subway stairs causing me to miss the train, etc.
To put it another way, I find that the shoe is on the other foot: it is those who lack the basic empathy and imagination and simple memory of their own experiences such that they end up framing tardiness as a problem instead of a fact of life who are the selfish ones. The world is not a clockwork.
posted by eustacescrubb at 12:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [10 favorites]

Surprised it's taken this long for me to see a "just suck it up" article about introversion. I guess being written by an introvert is meant to give it more "it's okay to say this, I'm half introvert on my mother's side" weight
posted by spinn at 2:07 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Rude" can be used in so many ways. Its simplest meaning is "against social norms" or maybe "declasse". What's rude depends on class, gender, etc so much.

Is it rude when a woman doesn't help her mother-in-law serve all the men at a gathering? Or is it rude that the mother-in-law and the men expect her to?

As a kid and up through early college I always assumed I was an introvert. I perceived myself as failing socially, and in particular as failing to perform femininity correctly.
In my twenties, I felt like I started to figure things out socially, and started to enjoy (certain kinds of) social interaction. It turns out I like house parties where you can find a place to sit and where you might have an interesting conversation with a total stranger! So, maybe I was an extrovert? Maybe I was learning to be less "rude"-- or, maybe I was just gaining a new skill in an easy-for-me kind of environment.

Now in my thirties, I see that I'm both, depending. Probably like most people. I may like house parties that invite conversation, but I still hate dark loud places where you have to stand and you're expected to dance. I still don't like when people talk to me on planes and have an excellent pair of headphones as defence, but once or twice I too have met a random awesome person on a plane. Is it "rude" when I spend a plane flight working, not smiling and talking to the person sitting next to me?

I also see that it's easiest for me to interact with people like me; but even people like me become exhausting after a while. I know how to do small talk- but I really mean that I know how to do small talk with other physicists at conferences, or with other nerds who lead largely similar lives. Useful, but not really crossing strong class/social boundaries there (just like your local dog park may actually not be that diverse, depending on where you live).

There's a sense of "rude" that means "you're not doing your share of emotional labor". And sometimes it's applied when indeed a person isn't carrying their own weight-- but other times people use it against those who're trying to opt out of the excess load they've been handed. And there's a sense of "rude" that means "vulgar", because people get uncomfortable when confronted with lives different from their own. To pretend "rude" doesn't have gender or class assumptions tied in - that's a sort of blinkered "the society's judgement is clearly right" bullshit that I just can't abide by.

There's also a meaning of "rude" that means "antisocial". It's rude when someone takes up an extra seat on public transit. It's rude when someone runs into other people. It's rude when a group ignores one person because they're different somehow. And yeah, I do think it's rude to flake on social engagements without warning or communication.

So... how can we as a society put meaning into "rude" that serves to mark bad behavior - while not just marking the behavior of the "other"?
posted by nat at 2:24 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

So basically "rude" now is the new "antisocial, un-American, and possibly dangerous and needing to be profiled." Check.
posted by blucevalo at 4:51 AM on September 26, 2016

Maybe because I'm a neurodivergent, but I always thought I had to go around being prepared with 'scripts', and so I do,

I have coping mechanisms. I can get through things most of the time. But my coping mechanisms take a huge amount of effort and are exhausting, and I don't have unlimited energy. If I'm using all my energy trying to be social, there are other things that I can't do, and some of those things are important to me and/or are also necessary if I'm not going to be rude. (I can be on time to things, but it takes a huge amount of effort. I am not good at planning and sequencing, and I rely on routines to make my life work. Generally, my strategy for being on time to non-routine things is to plan to be half an hour early and then hide somewhere for 15 minutes until it's actually the right time, because it is often also rude to be early.) And I guess I do somewhat resent the assumption that I should always prioritize the things other people find important and meaningful over the things that I find important and meaningful. I'm not talking about things like people's birthday parties: I think I should prioritize those. But she also thinks that I should prioritize mundane social interactions because of some vague possibility of connecting with people who are different from me, and I kind of think that's bullshit. I think it's ok if I figure out the best way to use my limited reserves of energy and brain power. I can't do everything, and it's ok if sometimes I choose to do the things that I actually enjoy.

Saying that feels kind of radical, to be honest. I do think that's partly gendered, but only partly.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:51 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

I had a coworker for five years who was late almost every day. She had a 10 minute commute in a warm climate without snow or ice, she had no children, no other family responsibilities. She was just a special fucking precious oh so sensitive introverted snowflake who just could not consider anyone else's needs. We worked overlapping shifts doing the same work, and we were the only people at our place of employment doing that work. I had to wait for her to arrive so I could go eat lunch- at that point I'd been at work for more than 5 hours and would be getting really really hungry. She'd sashay in with no excuse 15, 20, 20, 40 minutes late. So yes, I agree, some introverts are just selfish fucks who don't give a fuck about anyone but their precious selves.
posted by mareli at 6:55 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't understand what being late has to do with introversion.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:58 AM on September 26, 2016 [25 favorites]

I've found it easier to be social if I'm in charge of at least part of the proceedings; then I have something to do that is not "chat awkwardly." I will happily stay in the kitchen stirring the chili or go get another bag of ice.

I have often wondered if I am not so much introverted as someone who has such odd interests that I just can't connect with most people at a party. I love nerding out about many random things, and would also enjoy listening to other people nerd out, but everyone else wants to talk about their unhappy marriages or ungrateful kids or terrible inlaws or stupid TV shows. I used to feel superior about it, but now mostly I feel sad and disconnected in those situations. Mixing with strangers socially has led me to believe there are a whole lot of people who really need to be in therapy and possibly get divorced.
posted by emjaybee at 7:09 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

On the other hand, it sucks when they flake, repeatedly. It sucks when they let you know they'd rather die in a fire than come to dinner at your house.

Dinner at a friend's house sounds lovely. I like to eat out with a small group of close friends too. I'm more put off by bars (so loud) and big groups where I might not know anyone and have to struggle to think of things to say (social anxiety.)

But yes, I do sometimes flake too, and I am sorry. But that has more to do with the crushing migraines I'm getting every ten days or so. When you put together the extremely social demands of my job, my various mental illnesses, and the pain of migraines/heavy duty drugs I take to combat the pain, I just don't have anything left over for trying to be bright or cheerful or listening to some lady tell me about her kids on the bus, or whatever.
posted by Squeak Attack at 7:45 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Strange that an online community dedicated to arguing about the merits of fairly intelligent Web content is so full of self-professed introverts.

I might be one of the only people here who liked this article. I really don't see much wrong with asking people to consider that they've given their rudeness a special name. I'm taking the opportunity to inventory my own behavior and see for myself.

Whenever I hear someone say "ugh, I hate small talk," I always want to respond with something like "well, tell me what you learned from confronting your own mortality."
posted by chinese_fashion at 8:01 AM on September 26, 2016 [9 favorites]

She was just a special fucking precious oh so sensitive introverted snowflake who just could not consider anyone else's needs.

Can we please stop conflating random terrible behaviors with being introverted? The brush some are using here is ridiculously broad.

Look, extroverts do all kinds of shitty things too. Should I make a list of all the crappy stuff some of my extroverted friends have done? People who are assholes come in all kinds. Just because you know some people who are introverts and are also jerks doesn't mean that the introversion is the cause. People are generally more complicated than that.
posted by FireFountain at 8:02 AM on September 26, 2016 [8 favorites]

> I don't understand what being late has to do with introversion.

Nothing. Show of hands from people who know extroverts who are also frequently late/inconsiderate in other ways/flake on stuff?
posted by rtha at 8:08 AM on September 26, 2016 [21 favorites]

*i extend this to anyone who's ever shared a I'm an asshole before I have my first cup of coffee, haha! meme as well.

You know, I think this is maybe a different, but related, thing though. Like yes, on the one hand, it's never okay to be an asshole to others. On the other hand, "sitting quietly and not engaging with a yammering stranger on the train/a super-energetic barista/any fucker who demands my attention" is not the same thing as being an asshole. And I find that's often the sentiment being expressed in the "coffee" memes: hey, this is not a time I am able to engage with you. Please respect that, and I'll get back to you later.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:56 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think the lateness derail is coming from the first lines of TFA:

A good friend and colleague, a real extrovert, sent me a link to a shirt recently that she knew I’d appreciate. “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.”

I almost didn't read the rest of the article, TBH, because I could tell that the premise was wrong from the title, and this "funny" t-shirt is super rude and I was offended that it was being conflated with introversion.

Anyways, I think this article is using the wrong word ("rude") for something that can be a problem for folks who indulge in introversion too much: the weakening of social ties that comes from avoiding social situations. I've seen it in my own life, where because [reasons] I'm not making the efforts needed to maintain strong friendships with people I really do care about, and I'm definitely losing my connections to some of my looser social circles because sometimes I just want to drink beer and do crafts in my basement instead of going to a BBQ or whatnot. I also avoid professional networking events more than I should (which isn't great career wise).

Saying "no" to things isn't rude, but I know that for me it's gotten to the point where it's problematic, because social ties are important. The people that I'm choosing not to hang out with just get used to not hanging out with me, it's no skin of their backs whether I'm there or not. But, for my own sake, I'm trying to be more mindful of quieting the voice in my head that is screaming about how horrible any given event will be.

This is different than actual "rude" behaviors like flaking out, expressing that I'd "rather die" than hang out with you, or being obnoxiously late, etc. Those have to do with making in-the-moment decisions that are disrespectful of other people, and being introverted doesn't excuse that kind of jerk behavior.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:10 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I don't know where the lateness derail has come from.

Lateness and introversion are conflated in the article, the one linked at the top, the one this thread is about.
posted by eustacescrubb at 9:13 AM on September 26, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Probably best here if we leave it at having acknowledged the article's conflation of lateness and introversion but moving on from carrying that conflation further in the discussion here so that we don't end up getting overly hung up on that instead of discussing the general subject at large.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:17 AM on September 26, 2016

What I want to know is why nobody has pitched a NYT trend piece on assholish slogans t-shirts, etc?

A friend and I were recently looking for a typical "basic suburban office lady" coffee mug with a square slogan on it (Garfield saying "I Hate Mondays" or the like) and all we could find were variations on "DONT EVEN FUCKING TALK TO ME UGH" and "I HATE ALL PEOPLE GOODBYE", and also a bunch where the word "fuck" was replaced with a picture of a fox. I'm not sure if this is all happening because of a real angry social undertone, or what, but good golly I actually wouldn't hate a Times trend piece speculating why this is a thing.

Rather than "I saw a mean t-shirt in Target, must be those terrible introverts whose existence offends me."
posted by Sara C. at 9:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sara C., agreed. It is really ubiquitous and a little unnerving*, though like others here I have no idea why she makes the conflations she does between the mean shirt and all of the other components of introversion and/or rudeness.

It's clear that she personally may have used introversion as an excuse to avoid some healthy, if not immediately pleasant, interactions but she really offers no proof that this is "rude." Based on her descriptions, I wonder if perhaps she means "lazy," which is potentially so taboo for a woman to be that the very idea of laziness IS rude. An article on whether for women in particular, "manners" includes not only being kind and solicitous in social situations but also being super-involved in demanding social networks (as in, it's not enough to be polite when you go to the PTA meeting; it is impolite even to consider not attending)...now that, I'd read.

*even if I do cackle a bit gleefully at the idea of legions of unappreciated emotional laborers handing someone food on that little china plate that says "here's your snack, asshole."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:28 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

The whole introversion awareness thing was sorely needed at the time. For obvious reasons, extroverted people tend to set social norms. They're more likely to narrate what they're thinking, they interact with more people, and they tend to go into fields like teaching and HR, where their perspectives on human behavior carry more weight. The concept of introversion needed a public awareness campaign because before it, you'd have to constantly explain to people that you weren't anxious or depressed or mad at them (yet!) just because you didn't feel like socializing.

But then the internet got a little out of control with it, and it seemed like it was becoming much more of a group identity thing. There was a pretty steady stream of those comics featuring young women wearing blankets draped over their heads explaining introversion, and it always seemed to be the same people signal boosting them. And some of them started getting really smug and overly hostile, as though extroverts were just constantly with the ecstasy and the untz untz music all up in your face. I totally understand a little burst of hostility every now and again when someone's been getting on your nerves and all, but some people were doing that ridiculous "Team [Whatever]" thing with it, where they started acting as though people not sharing their proclivities were either insulting them by being different from them, or were just bad people overall. And a lot of that stuff really did start conflating introversion with some seemingly pathological stuff like misanthropy and anxiety, which is wrong and counterproductive to the core message that different people need different things as far as social vs. alone time, and it doesn't mean there's something wrong with them.

And on that thin end of the whole introversion awareness thing, I'm really not seeing how it's any better than what it was intended to counter. At least in my circles, awareness has been achieved. We're good now.

Also, I think it's weird how some people seem to want to go on and on about how extremely hard they keep to themselves.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:43 AM on September 26, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, I definitely don't see a connection between "I hate everything except pizza" or that "don't talk to me... wait now I have to poop" coffee mug and introversion. I can draw a lot of other probably spurious parallels, and would be genuinely interested to read a "What's Up With All The Mean Slogans On Things?" trend piece. But the "introverts are rude because of this t-shirt I saw" thing seems the weakest possible angle.
posted by Sara C. at 10:43 AM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if another thing is that there's less stigma on introversion than on a lot of other things that make people avoid social situations, so some people claim to be introverts when they're really non-neurotypical in more profound and life-complicating ways.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:49 AM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wow. That pushed a lot of my buttons.
Is it rude to push somebody's buttons? Or is self-centered to not want my buttons pushed?
(Well, I do spend a lot of time in my own head. Part of my annoyance is having to consider if she's right.)

And I wouldn't go to a dog run because dogs are way too extroverted for me to deal with.
posted by MtDewd at 10:54 AM on September 26, 2016

Also, re social awareness of introversion, I was just happy to finally understand that introversion isn't the same as being shy or a homebody/wallflower type, but has to do with energy levels and how you "recharge your batteries" so to speak. I'm actually not afraid to talk to strangers, am pretty good at small talk, and sometimes even enjoy work drinks and other quasi-voluntary social situations. I just find all that draining and prefer to balance that stuff with lots of alone time.

I thought I was an extrovert for a long time, because people have always labeled me a chatterbox, I'm a former high school theatre kid, and once I'm in a social situation I can make conversation just fine.
posted by Sara C. at 10:56 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wonder if another thing is that there's less stigma on introversion than on a lot of other things that make people avoid social situations, so some people claim to be introverts when they're really non-neurotypical in more profound and life-complicating ways.

I don't doubt that this is true, but to label a behavior that a non-NT person cannot help as "rude" seems even more wrong than labeling that same behavior as "rude" when an introvert does it by choice. So this article is even less salvageable (and maybe a little ableist too boot).
posted by sparklemotion at 11:24 AM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's interesting how the writer is apply social behavior i.e. "you don't want to be thought of as rude, do you?"

Really, it's ok to be a little rude if the world is demanding too much from you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:35 AM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

"You were ten minutes late meeting me at this bar. Have you ever missed an appointment for surgery? No? See, you're an asshole."
posted by ejs at 11:56 AM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

In a way, I think that the labeling is sometimes the problem in itself. If someone says or does something that comes across as rude, the question to me is are they doing it intentionally or thoughtlessly, or if it's an innocent misstep somehow.

Everyone is on every spectrum.there is, so if someone has a tendency to misread social cues and needs things stated bluntly, I don't need to know whether they fit other criteria to considered on the autism spectrum; and if another person just really can't handle loud parties, I don't need to know whether it's due to introversion or sensory processing issues or whatever. Either of those things could occur in isolation from other 'symptoms' of specific personality types.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who adopt labels in order to get away with socially inappropriate behavior, like creepy men who claim to have Asperger's to avoid criticism*, but individual people can have a trait here and there that doesn't necessarily correlate to some recognized category, but that isn't entirely a conscious choice either. Being consistently late or flaking on people is rude, no matter who is doing it, because it actively inconveniences other people. Refusing invitations isn't rude per se, although if you refuse every time, people stop asking and you're not allowed to complain about it.

* People on the autism spectrum who are high functioning enough to be hitting on you are high functioning enough to understand the words "stop" and "no." It doesn't matter whether that guy is autistic or not. It's disrespectful at best.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:10 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

The kind of schedule someone has on days they're travelling is so very different than the kind of schedule someone has in day-to-day life.

>"You were ten minutes late meeting me at this bar. Have you ever missed an appointment for surgery? No? See, you're an asshole."

To be fair, I actually found that particular bit of the article to be on point. For most people, if it is important to them to be on time for something, they usually can (generally by planning to be early). Therefore, for most people who tend to be chronically late, being on time is not important enough to be worth it to make the sacrifices necessary to ensure that they are usually on time. So I think there's some truth to the platitude that "Being late means that you think your time is more valuable than mine."

This, of course, applies to people who are chronically late, not people who had a legitimately unexpected event occur that screwed up their schedule so they were 10 minutes late, one time.

And, naturally, no one can prepare for ever possible eventuality, so yeah, sometimes people are going to be late to things, and we should generally give people slack unless it's a pattern, and negatively affects us (like mareli's co-worker, who probably should have gotten a talking to after the first month).
posted by sparklemotion at 12:14 PM on September 26, 2016 [2 favorites]

To be fair, I actually found that particular bit of the article to be on point. For most people, if it is important to them to be on time for something, they usually can (generally by planning to be early). Therefore, for most people who tend to be chronically late, being on time is not important enough to be worth it to make the sacrifices necessary to ensure that they are usually on time. So I think there's some truth to the platitude that "Being late means that you think your time is more valuable than mine."

Eh. Some people are very good at mentally keeping track of "clock time" and others aren't. "Clock time" as such didn't really matter until the industrial revolution and train schedules - before trains, 12:30 in one town didn't occur at the same time as 12:30 in another. Humans, therefore, aren't naturally selected to be universally good at synching their internal senses of time with mechanical devices that have no real-world connection (closest thing would be an estimate of the time it takes for the earth to rotate once, but that is itself an estimate.) I tend to be an on time person myself, but know plenty of good, decent people who bear me no ill will who are habitually late because they're not as good at estimating the passage of mechanical time as I am. To judge these people as somehow acting in bad faith simply because they lack a skill I possess seems about as absurd as judging tone-deaf people when they sing off-key.
posted by eustacescrubb at 12:31 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

If only humanity had developed a variety of mechanisms for determining the current "mechanical" time, we could all be free of the burden of manual synchronization. Perhaps, such a theoretically advanced society could also create tools that were capable of informing us about an impending appointment, and even providing a reasonable estimate of how long it will take to get there. I'd imagine that some of these mythical tools could even inform people of when they needed to leave, perhaps with a series of some kind of audible or visible notifications.

In all seriousness though, I'm willing to bet that even people who aren't "good at estimating the passage of mechanical time," and don't want to consult watches, clocks, or phones, could avoid being late a good chunk of the time if they planned to reach their destinations thirty minutes to an hour earlier than any given appointment. That they choose not to do those things, even though they are aware of their tendencies, is where the rudeness occurs.

I don't think I'm completely tone-deaf, but I have a hard time detecting if I'm singing off-key. Because of that, I don't sing in situations where others might be relying on me to be on-key (no leading choirs, performing a capella harmonies, or vocal recording for me!). But singing is optional, if it weren't, I'd probably be on the lookout for tools that could help me detect the proper pitch. Similarly, I'm really bad at estimating how long it takes me to get places, so I always build wiggle-room into my plans (and have my phone or a book or something handy, so I never have to be awkwardly waiting).
posted by sparklemotion at 1:18 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't know about other chronically late people, but to be certain of being on time for something, I have to make it my only focus in life. If I absolutely must leave home by 5:00 for something like a flight, exam, interview or MRI, I usually don't go to bed at all the night before so I don't lose my momentum. I start getting ready around midnight and spend half the night in a state of heart-fluttering anxiety. I have to forget about tasks like cooking dinner or emptying the litter box because of the potential for me to get distracted and lose control of time. And then once the critical event is over I have to go back and do all the stuff I let slide. I try not to screw people over because of my problems, mostly by avoiding people* and jobs that require routine punctuality, and I'm getting better at this stuff with age and effort, but I also can't make being on time all the time my only priority in life, which is the only way I know how to do it for sure. Like, I'll be there for a friend if they need a ride to the hospital, but I just can't and won't be staying up all night so we can beat the traffic to the sorbet festival. They have to have another kind of friend for things like that. (But actually they're mostly also ludicrous jokers and I get there 1 1/2 hours late and have to wait for them anyway.)

* Except the one I married, oops.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 1:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [6 favorites]

I try not to screw people over because of my problems, mostly by avoiding people* and jobs that require routine punctuality

This is another perfectly reasonable (and not rude) way of dealing with chronic lateness. The problem with being late isn't that you are getting someplace later than you planned, it's that you have given someone reason to believe that you will be someplace at a certain time and then you aren't. If no one is expecting you, being late can't possibly be rude.

This ties back to TFA, where the author seems to be saying that doing things like "saying 'no' to fundraisers and coffees" is "rude." But, usually, no one is relying on you to say "yes," so the "no" isn't rude (usually). I can obviously think of situations (the previously discussed "flaking" on a prior commitment, or maybe expecting people to come to your house for dinner but never going to their turf*) where refusing to go to something after being invited is rude...but those situations aren't discussed.

The one actual, perhaps-kinda rude thing that she discusses is sitting in her "car and read[ing] a book while [her] children attended a family-oriented athletic function," and even that is questionable: did the kids expect her to be there? were other parents there? did she say she'd bring treats? Or, was this something that Dad was in charge of and she decided to ride along instead of staying home but didn't feel like going and spectating?

*this latter one is fraught -- there are plenty of reasons to be more comfortable entertaining in your own home than being elsewhere, but if you're always expecting people to, say, commute 45 mins each way to your home and you're never willing to do the same even though there's nothing wrong with other people's houses, that's kind of selfish.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:45 PM on September 26, 2016

For extraverts going out, being at the party is exciting, gives them energy and makes them feel good...

For introverts it is the exact opposite - social events are exhausting and quiet is recharge so they fix it by staying in!

Exactly! Mrs 43rd gets a lot of energy from being with people, I'm exactly the opposite. Social interactions tire me in a way that nothing else does.

So it's rather ironic that I make my living teaching and lecturing, and am often found behind a microphone with a guitar. Interacting with people doesn't bother me and I rather like playing the clown, but after a day of close interaction I just want to shut the world out and live in silence for an hour or two. And when I have to stay away from home, a *whole weekend* with no people to talk to is just wonderfully recharging. My wife does not understand this.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 3:03 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

'Being able to say "no" to other people is a fundamental right everybody should exercise regularly.
In fact, we've seen posts endlessly on the blue and the green about how people who can't, won't, or don't say no are harmed by their inability to decline.
Saying that other people don't have the right to refuse you denies their agency and their right to self determination."

Yeah...I work in an industry where I pretty much can't say no (and the few times I have to say no because it breaks a rule/policy, the people make my life hell) and hoo boy, am I ever pissed off and fried after doing that all day. Right now I really want to scream at a certain person to stop emailing me 5-10 times a day to do her crap for her, but I cannot.
One of my favorite fictional characters is a faerie who's had a geas put upon her to essentially have to do favors for anyone who asks and she can't say no to anything. She is SUPER cranky, mean to everyone at first go, very hard to find or get ahold of, has her house magically looking like it's covered in sea trash, anything to get people to go away. They will not go away.

"Most of them work in offices. They get to the end of the day and need a reprieve from the people, which is often the exact opposite place of where I want to be."

Think of it this way: they've spent all day dealing with people they do not want to be dealing with. I come home on days like this and I just need to not see any other humans for awhile because if I had to make a conversation with anyone right now, even someone I liked, I might inadvertently rip their head off. I need to calm the hell down and detox for awhile before I can be polite and social again.

" I've lost count of the number of times when I've been quietly concentrating on something only for someone to start having a go at me - "you're being quiet," with the insinuation being that if you aren't laughing it up like a hyena you're unproductive, not a team member, etc. Sometimes you just need to be quiet."

Oh, I had a coworker who'd start bitching, "Why are you so quiet?" IT'S 8:15 A.M. ON A TUESDAY, WHAT THE FUCK IS THERE TO TALK ABOUT?!?!

I second how open plan--and all the constant interruptions and naggings and complaints and demands--does suck you dry. I am in negative numbers of empty in my soul at the end of the day.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:52 PM on September 26, 2016 [4 favorites]

I hope this isn't bad-behavior self-linking, but this article/discussion falls in line with something I wrote about on my fake-name nobody-reads-it Medium account Why I Got Mad At a Cute Cartoon About Introverts

This cartoon showed several examples of what they believed was an introverts way of being polite - but the introvert in the cartoon seemed presumptuous in most of the examples, not willing to say "I can't" or "I'd rather not", and instead acting as if they are doing a favor for the invitee by saying no. Overall they were bad at declining invitations, providing awkward non-answers that can prolong the discomfort.
posted by yorick at 7:51 PM on September 26, 2016 [3 favorites]

When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become.

I get tired of commentary that always insists that society is falling apart, as if it was once so harmonious. Haven't there always been introverts? I'm having a hard time taking this seriously.

Plus, as an often quiet person, I often attract people who want to just talk at me, they think that because I'm quiet I'll be so thankful to listen to them go on about their personal problems at length and whatnot even though I don't want to hear it because I barely know them. I don't see how that's any less selfish. In fact, that's one thing that reinforces my introversion: avoiding certain types of people that crop up repeatedly.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 9:24 PM on September 26, 2016 [5 favorites]

You know what? Maybe the internet *has* given rise to "introvert chic", and maybe it is being used to excuse genuine antisocial behavior at times. Maybe.

On the other hand, having to hear extroverts talk about how 'selfish' introverts are for not wanting to be used as a scratching post is probably as close as I'll get to being on the other side of privilege as a white male in America.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 6:46 AM on September 27, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's so funny, jenfullmoon: I am reading those books as we speak, and I wondered if you were the same jenfullmoon who sometimes comments on the author's livejournal. It's a small nerdy introverted world!

I have an issue with the idea that I am being antisocial because I don't hang out with people all the time. I totally agree that those social connections have value, but I don't think I agree with the premise that the things I do alone don't have value. So when I'm alone, I could be meeting new people and fighting isolation and whatnot. But when she's out meeting new people, she could be reading a book or learning to code, which are things that I'm currently doing with my alone time. We all have finite time, and there are opportunity costs with every choice we make about how to use our free time. I don't entirely understand why one set of opportunity costs should be more stigmatized than another.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:21 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]

My boss recently commented off-hand that I'm introverted. I had to ask why and it turns out it's because I often say "let me think about that and I'll get back to you."

The irony is, I'd spent years trying to stop mouthing off and causing issues due to snap decisions so...judging people on a single axis of behavior is just dumb. Since most people consider me an extrovert. Which might be true as if I don't have social time for a few weeks I turn into a pile of goo...but it's a lot more complicated than that in my head.

I wonder if another thing is that there's less stigma on introversion than on a lot of other things that make people avoid social situations, so some people claim to be introverts when they're really non-neurotypical in more profound and life-complicating ways.

Point, set, match. Oh I wish I'd thought of this one earlier in my life. "Sorry my inner goth teenager is staying out all night Friday so I (45 yrs old) can't bake cupcakes for your soccer fundraiser" never seems like a great possibility in the moment.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:38 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]

So. . . the author has trouble with boundary setting, had a bad habit of lateness and is weighed down with guilt from her perceived cultural expectations about socializing. And instead of addressing these issues as *personal areas of improvement* she has to drag a whole subset of people into her shame circle and point the finger at everyone, as if her experience is a univocal truth of introversion.
posted by ananci at 1:59 PM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]

" It's a small nerdy introverted world!"

*highfives!*

I don't know how far you are into the series, but the newest book has a novella at the end that REALLY encapsulates the Luidaeg's problem right there. Loved it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:51 PM on September 27, 2016

Because extroverts value inane small talk (and gossip bitterly about those who don't)

Yeah, no. But keep thinking you're Deeper than I must be.
posted by listen, lady at 1:38 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm an introvert and this article brings to mind a couple of falsehoods people tend to believe about me:

1. That I'm comfortable being the way I am. I'm sure some introverts are, but I'm not. In fact, I worry all the time about rudeness. I am obsessed with it. I hate being treated rudely, and I am constantly frightened others will interpret my shyness as disdain.

I'm 50, and I've worried about this all my life. So, while there may be some introverts out there using their personality types to excuse rudeness, there are others, like me, who continually force themselves into difficult situations to avoid even the possibility of rudeness.

2. That it may be uncomfortable for me to socialize when my social batteries run out, but sometimes we need to be uncomfortable in order to be polite, and so I should just act like a mature adult and get over my introversion--at least when it's socially required. In other words, being social is a choice. Maybe a difficult one, but still a choice.

I can't speak for other introverts, but that's not how it works with me. I guess that, since everyone feels socially-overwhelmed at times, when some extroverts try to understand people like me, they assume I'm feeling what they're feeling when the'd rather be alone than socialize--when they're bored but force themselves to smile and ask questions.

But here's what's actually going on with me: the social part of my brain switches off. It's not that I don't feel like making small talk; it's that I can't. The words literally won't come. It's like trying to run a hundred-meter dash when you've already pushed your muscles to failure. No amount of trying will work at that point; your muscles simply need time to repair. If someone held a gun to your head and said "run or die," you'd be forced to take the latter option.

When I've pushed my social muscles to failure, the most polite thing I can do is make a speedy exit. Sometimes that's impossible. Sometimes, I'm trapped at a party with a friend who isn't ready to leave--a friend who drove us both there. And, to my horror, I feel my energy flagging and I hear myself going silent.

Eventually, I'll wind up sitting in a corner, not talking to anyone. Kind people will try to engage me, but the best I'll be able to manage is monosyllable replies, and even those take a lot of effort. The parts of my brain that can form longer sentences--or even think of longer sentences to say--are offline. And they only recharge after several hours of alone time.

The worst thing is that a large part of me buys the myth that I should just man up and try harder. That I'm being a big baby. That I'm being horribly rude. And so, in addition to my social woes, I am silently beating myself up all the while.

I'm sure that my general gregariousness--when I'm not taxed--makes my behavior even more confusing to people. At the beginning of parties, I'm all smiles, I'm an attentive listener, and I'm overflowing with jokes and stories. But after an hour, silence envelops me like a cloud.
posted by grumblebee at 5:17 AM on September 28, 2016 [10 favorites]

The parts of my brain that can form longer sentences--or even think of longer sentences to say--are offline

Yes, yes, yes! Like my being has this much capacity for socialness, but once that bandwidth is gone, it's gone.

I'm on bed rest with a particularly nasty case of bronchitis. The mister is traveling on business, and the kid is staying at my parents' house to help my mom after my dad's reconstructive foot surgery. I've been alone for two days now. And I'm lonely as hell. I love my people, I need them, but I also need my alone time. As an introvert, I'm perfectly capable of dearly missing my loved ones, and wishing I had someone to talk to (I post more on MeFi when I'm alone). I'm not a robot, and I'm acutely aware of manners.
posted by Ruki at 8:36 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]

That I'm comfortable being the way I am. I'm sure some introverts are, but I'm not.

this is two days late and no one's probably reading, but god yes on this one. I think what some people don't understand is that introversion often goes hand in hand with shyness, which can be excrutiating. I know when I was more shy it was so painful and I was avoiding the pain of that situation and it wasn't meant to be a personal snub of the people involved. But I'm sure they perceived it that way, hence the rudeness claim.

It wasn't until I found other introverts who got me and who I could tell struggled with how to connect with others that I felt more connected. When you're the odd man out, it's not fun.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 2:48 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]