"It's about more than pho and sombreros"
September 27, 2016 9:42 AM   Subscribe

"Cultural appropriation: It's about more than pho and sombreros." Viet Thanh Nguyen, recent winner of the Pulitzer Prize for his novel The Sympathizer, presents the 101 basics of Cultural Appropriation for a general audience and then addresses how to move forward.
posted by Celsius1414 (33 comments total) 56 users marked this as a favorite
 
Since the Bon Appetit thing comes up in the article, hopefully it's germane to link this take on it that I particularly enjoyed.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:59 AM on September 27, 2016 [12 favorites]


As usual, don't read the comments on that article.

unless you enjoy frustration
posted by kokaku at 10:05 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


this was a good read
posted by rebent at 10:21 AM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


Appreciate the culture, celebrate the culture, bring new friends into the culture, but don't for the love of all that is holy make false claims about the culture.

This is pretty much the case in any culture/fandom/enthusiasm.
posted by Hasteur at 10:24 AM on September 27, 2016 [8 favorites]


The second link in the story about the white chef explaining how to eat pho is a really good explanation of why this kind of appropriation is a problem... I really recommend reading it and the other links before commenting.

Sample:

I did note a couple of odd things. What’s with “Little Vietnam”? Little Saigon is the common name for Vietnamese enclaves in the United States. Because Saigon is the former name of the capital of South Vietnam, “Little Saigon” is meant to defy the current Communist government in Vietnam. It’s a blow for freedom and democracy for Viet expats who sought refuge in America. I’ve yet to venture into a “Little Vietnam” and will now look out for them.
posted by Huck500 at 10:30 AM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


This is one of those things that makes me think that there's a whole other 2016 happening that I'm not a part of. Who doesn't think that hey, maybe taking an iconic dish and having a non-Vietnamese chef talk about it isn't a good idea? I'm always shocked that there's not more reflection on these things.
posted by Carillon at 10:32 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just finished reading TFA, and I have to say it's a really great resource about cultural appropriation in general. Very thorough and even-handed.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:44 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


I had no idea about "Little Saigon" nor that they were called "Little Hanoi" in communist countries, at least at one time.
posted by josher71 at 10:45 AM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


This was a good, thought-provoking lunchtime read (at a tiny, hole-in-the-wall sushi restaurant, ha).

I especially like the message that the way to work at solving this boils down to: talk to other people, listen to what they are saying (even if it's bad things about you!), and work together and help each other out. Unity instead of disparity. Basically the exact opposite of that super shitty Instagram. Fuuuuuck that Tyler Akin guy.
posted by Fig at 10:48 AM on September 27, 2016 [6 favorites]


Who doesn't think that hey, maybe taking an iconic dish and having a non-Vietnamese chef talk about it isn't a good idea?

It might be? If someone isn't being a tool about it, and is following the three or four considerations Nguyen talks about in the linked article, why not? Aiken is being a fool, and is whitesplaining, but why would something like Kenji Lopez-Alt writing an article on how to make pho be automatically wrong?

The point of the original article is to be respectful of the source culture, to consider and to take into the account the history of economic colonialism and continuing disparities, and to own up to criticism of your mistakes. That doesn't mean only Vietnamese cooks can write about pho. It does mean that a cross-cultural project has to be done with respect for the sources and an acceptance of one's own limitations.
posted by bonehead at 10:50 AM on September 27, 2016 [22 favorites]


Mod note: A couple comment deleted. Folks, this is a super hot-button set of issues with a very charged history on Mefi specifically. I'd suggest really reading some of the background stuff and the actual article and really thinking twice about whether your point has been addressed in those sources; despite good intentions it's really easy to come across in a negative way you don't intend here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:09 AM on September 27, 2016 [15 favorites]


Good read. Thanks much for sharing.
posted by custardfairy at 11:56 AM on September 27, 2016


why would something like Kenji Lopez-Alt writing an article on how to make pho be automatically wrong?

Someone might argue that it is, but not me. To me the distinguishing factors are that:

1) Lopez-Alt does his research and shows his research on what pho is
2) He doesn't get into a big debate about what pho is or isn't - he presents one definition based on research and goes with that
3) he spends the bulk of the article on ingredients (cuts of beef) and techniques (making clear broth) which in not really here or there in terms of cultural issues (at least not that I know of)
4) he actually goes out of his way to avoid pronouncing certain things right or wrong:

Most Vietnamese restaurants will serve both hoisin and sriracha on the side to squirt into your pho, but I've never been a fan of either—my working theory is that they started out as a way to add a much-needed jolt of flavor to a poorly-constructed broth, which is definitely not what we've got here. Then again, I'm not the kind of guy to stop adulterators from adulterating.

So he's not policing or dictating what pho is, he's reporting what Vietnamese restaurant do, his personal opinion and then says you should do what you like. Which strikes me as the opposite of what Akin is doing.
posted by GuyZero at 11:58 AM on September 27, 2016 [14 favorites]


The point of the original article is to be respectful of the source culture, to consider and to take into the account the history of economic colonialism and continuing disparities, and to own up to criticism of your mistakes. That doesn't mean only Vietnamese cooks can write about pho. It does mean that a cross-cultural project has to be done with respect for the sources and an acceptance of one's own limitations.

One way to generalize this excellent observation, which I offer tentatively and only with trepidation, is that one of the more peculiar privileges of being a left-wing white man at this point in history is that you have all these sharp-eyed people from outside your demographic giving you insights about yourself and your group that would be very hard to come up with from the inside, and yet would be very valuable to you if you could only take them in -- and the security and latitude afforded by your very privilege just happens to reduce the risk of doing so.

Of course they'd like to knock you off your perch, but that too would be a good thing.
posted by jamjam at 11:59 AM on September 27, 2016 [5 favorites]


Also it's the difference between being one white chef in a whole conversation with actual Vietnamese chefs and those traditions. Just him explaining the check list comes across a bit like calling curry an Oriental Ragout. Tone deaf, and maybe what could be expected in the '41, but I'd expect better today and am surprised that no one thought that maaaybe there should be more inclusion there.
posted by Carillon at 1:36 PM on September 27, 2016


You know who is a great example of a white dude who loves and appreciates and extols Asian cuisine - but never falls into the appropriation trap? Jonathan Gold. He has built a huge career around exploring immigrant cuisine, and no one would doubt that his intentions are authentic and enthusiastic. I think these intentions are important - otherwise fear of cultural appropriation could stop people sharing and exploring foods that they love.

A young whipper snapper thinking that he knows more than old hands who have been immersed in cuisine is never appreciated - regardless of the ethnicities involved.
posted by helmutdog at 4:31 PM on September 27, 2016 [4 favorites]


One day, I just really want to take one of those white guys who talks loudly about his knowledge of Proper Authentic Sushi to any other American in earshot to one of Japan's many ¥100-a-plate sushi shops and watch him just melt as he watches grilled pork sushi and Salisbury steak sushi with mayonnaise and the like go by, alongside the now-popular-in-Japan California rolls
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:03 PM on September 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


A tangentially related thing I've found amusing, incidentally, is that ramen and pizza occupy the same space in the social mentality of Japan and the US of "formerly exotic Immigrant Food is now a popular comfort food that nobody doesn't like." What's more amusing, though, is that trendy little Italian restaurants are filling Japanese cities at roughly the same pace that trendy ramen shops are filling American cities.

Of course, this also kind of touches on Japan's status as a sort of honorary European country and the at-least-mildly racist implications thereof…
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:07 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thanks for posting this; it's one of the better articles I've seen about the topic (I only wish it were longer). The emphasis on economic/power disparities as opposed to cultural symbols is important, but there were a lot of other good points in there, and the suggestion that white American anxiety about "losing *our* country" is a sort of fear of cultural appropriation is currently making my head spin a little.
posted by uosuaq at 6:37 PM on September 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


Thanks for posting this; it's one of the better articles I've seen about the topic (I only wish it were longer).

I'm hoping he expands this essay into a longer piece or even a short book at some point. It's a great starting place for and introduction to several huge conversations.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:41 PM on September 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


Of course, this also kind of touches on Japan's status as a sort of honorary European country and the at-least-mildly racist implications thereof…

Japan has been economically developed for long enough, and very curious about the West for long enough, to have done some very interesting cultural appropriations and remixes of its own. So it's often the counterargument trotted out when people want to say "but see - Asians do cultural appropriation too!" I find that it's useful when discussing CA to stick to a particular country (usually the USA) because otherwise things get too scattershot.
posted by theorique at 3:11 AM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, I could write a book on how Japan Doesn't Get Race. But it's in a different sort of way, where there's less maliciousness overall but breathtaking amounts of obliviousness.

But OH my GOODNESS yes it is a Fraught Minefield
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:09 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Sometimes there are layers upon layers, like here:

"I think they just don't know any better," Jason Alavi, an English language teacher in Bangkok, told the Chiang Mai City News last summer. "World history and geography instruction are woefully inadequate in Thai schools... The vast majority of the Thais I have known have very little real, useful knowledge of the details of the rest of the world."

posted by shala at 7:38 AM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]


Layers upon layers is right.

On the one hand, it evokes "The Nazis"(tm), and all that implies. On the other, there isn't as much visceral resonance of what that means, in Asia (as opposed to Europe or the USA).

On the one hand, are Westerners stepping out of line to police Asians about their choice of a particular aesthetic? On the other, maybe some things are such bad ideas (i.e. appropriating Nazi uniforms for aesthetics) that they cross cultural lines and we should be willing to cross those lines.

A lot of the Asian usage of 3rd Reich fashion and aesthetics seems to be purely that - I'm sure that K-Pop girl band would be aghast if you suggested that they were supporting genocide or anything of the sort. And yet, they are wearing uniforms that look a lot like SS.

No easy answers, that's for sure.
posted by theorique at 9:54 AM on September 28, 2016


The tu quoque argument doesn't let white Americans off the hook, but it certainly seems like some want it to.

So yes people want to get let off by saying they're not solely guilty of doing a bad thing.

I think it's also kind of a slippery slope argument that's trying to position cultural appropriation as some sort of universal behaviour by giving TWO data points instead of just one. And I think there's almost an argument to be made for cultural appropriation as something that many cultures do but that doesn't mean that it's not problematic when white people do it.
posted by GuyZero at 10:23 AM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes. I'm not sure what it says when another culture besides ours with a history of military imperialism also engages in cultural imperialism, but I can't imagine it being directly useful in discussing the details of American cultural imperialism.
posted by maxsparber at 10:26 AM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]


Great article, thanks for sharing. Wanted to share another really good piece on cultural appropriation in writing and fiction.
Claudia Rankine, when awarded the MacArthur genius grant this past week, noted that the prize was “the culture saying: We have an investment in dismantling white dominance in our culture. If you’re trying to do that, we’re going to help you.” For some, this sounds exciting. For others, this reads as a threat — at best, a suggestion to catch up and engage with a subject, race, that for a long time has been thought of as not “universal,” not “deep” enough for fiction. The panic around all of this is driving these outbursts.

It must feel like a reversal of fate to those who have not been paying attention. The other, who has been relegated to the background character, wise outcast, dash of magic, or terror or cool or symbolism, or more simply emotional or physical whore, is expected to be the main event, and some writers suspect that they may not be up for that challenge.

A writer has the right to inhabit any character she pleases — she’s always had it and will continue to have it. The complaint seems to be less that some people ask writers to think about cultural appropriation, and more that a writer wishes her work not to be critiqued for doing so, that instead she get a gold star for trying.

Whenever I hear this complaint, I am reminded of Toni Morrison’s cool assessment of “anti-P.C. backlash” more than 20 years ago: “What I think the political correctness debate is really about is the power to be able to define. The definers want the power to name. And the defined are now taking that power away from them.”

The quote is two decades old, but this debate, in certain circles, has never moved past the paranoia about nonexistent censorship.
posted by AceRock at 10:42 AM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]


Can we not drift into "Asians do it too!"
But no nations have ever done Racism more successfully than the United States of America (with the British Empire a solid second, and our main inspiration). Most nations let it hold them back; 'we' let it push us to the top of the heap (such as the heap is).
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:26 PM on September 28, 2016


I think it's perhaps naive to suggest that the US and UK are the worst offenders in history. We are more aware of their histories, but that doesn't mean there isn't a long history of it.

Think about the Roman appropriation of Greek culture, almost wholesale... Alexander the Great was basically a cultural blender everywhere he went. Greco-Buddhism anyone?

I'm not trying to make a tu quoque argument here. I just think it's important to recognise that we are only now in a position where the appropriated culture can actually speak up about it, and hopefully the appropriating culture can acknowledge it?
posted by trif at 6:43 AM on September 29, 2016


I think it's perhaps naive to suggest that the US and UK are the worst offenders in history

I don't think anyone has suggested this.
posted by maxsparber at 6:44 AM on September 29, 2016


Dammit, naive is a strong word and i didn't mean it to sound as such. Please don't take my use of it as an insult.
posted by trif at 6:45 AM on September 29, 2016


Max, I was referring to oneswellfoop. He mentions The US and the British Empire. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent. I only wanted to highlight that this is an issue that has been going on for as long as humans have been conquering each other, but that maybe we can now acknowledge what is happening, culturally speaking?
posted by trif at 6:51 AM on September 29, 2016


Yes, my reference to the US and the British Empire was that they/we were not doing anything new or even very unique, and I'm sure you can find many examples that were more brutal/awful, but I just believe that the British/American model has been the most successful to date in gaining power and monetary rewards.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:30 PM on September 30, 2016 [1 favorite]


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