The Queer Poor Aesthetic
September 28, 2016 2:08 PM Subscribe
There’s a viral and ironic trend that i’ve been lately noticing in and beyond my TQPOC community: my wealthier friends own everything but their class privilege. I couldn’t “be myself” in a space built for people like me. I couldn’t identify with people I shared identities with. The identity that significantly affects my daily life was erased in a culture that consumes identity politics. The only times my anti-capitalist housemates mentioned class was when it was theoretical and not about them personally, as if being marginalized makes you entitled to know how every kind of oppression feels. It’s easy to hide behind your oppression.
It's the whole "nation of embarrassed millionaires" thing: Americans are historically very attached to the idea that social mobility is just a matter of hustle.
Also, given the size of the country the better off have a long tradition of moving far enough away from the rest of the population so that they can forget about them.
posted by selfnoise at 2:43 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also, given the size of the country the better off have a long tradition of moving far enough away from the rest of the population so that they can forget about them.
posted by selfnoise at 2:43 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
This article brings up a confluence of problems - the rich liberal behavior of 'playing poor' as a form of rebellion - the lasting impact of the American Dream concept as a cure for the concept of class - the particularly San Franciscan POV that class just doesn't matter. You can see it in the Haight or Berkeley where rich Marin teenagers masquerade as homeless people and demand charity in a way no legitimately indigent person would ever dare.
I also suspect that the American rejection of class is also a rejection of powerlessness, because to legitimize the concept (at least as it exists in Britain) is to say "you have your place, now stay in it."
I love this article and would favorite it 100 times if I could.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:47 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I also suspect that the American rejection of class is also a rejection of powerlessness, because to legitimize the concept (at least as it exists in Britain) is to say "you have your place, now stay in it."
I love this article and would favorite it 100 times if I could.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:47 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
You can see it in the Haight or Berkeley where rich Marin teenagers masquerade as homeless people and demand charity in a way no legitimately indigent person would ever dare.
It's worth interrogating whether this is actually the case. There are plenty of homeless youth in the Bay Area. Why people insist that they're "playing" at being homeless and have rich families to go home to, I don't know. No one ever comes along and says "Yeah, that's how I spent my time as a teenager." One would expect Metafilter, which is rife with white people from comfortable backgrounds would have a few such people, if they only existed.
posted by hoyland at 2:52 PM on September 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
It's worth interrogating whether this is actually the case. There are plenty of homeless youth in the Bay Area. Why people insist that they're "playing" at being homeless and have rich families to go home to, I don't know. No one ever comes along and says "Yeah, that's how I spent my time as a teenager." One would expect Metafilter, which is rife with white people from comfortable backgrounds would have a few such people, if they only existed.
posted by hoyland at 2:52 PM on September 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
grumpybear69: "the rich liberal behavior of 'playing poor' as a form of rebellion"
Related: Crust Punk Hops Train to Parents’ Lake House
posted by wcfields at 2:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Related: Crust Punk Hops Train to Parents’ Lake House
posted by wcfields at 2:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
It grates a little that the author spends so many words excoriating middle-class Americans for not checking thier privilege when he also doesn't, at any point, acknowledge that the availability of food pantries and college organizations and zine supplies are all still privileges if one takes a wider view, particularly a global one.
I don't in any way mean to say that income inequality and poverty in the US aren't crippling - it's a huge problem, and we're doing a whole lot worse than our peer countries - but maybe the author is failing to see that they might be communicating some of the same sort of myopia as the friends he criticizes?
posted by R a c h e l at 2:54 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't in any way mean to say that income inequality and poverty in the US aren't crippling - it's a huge problem, and we're doing a whole lot worse than our peer countries - but maybe the author is failing to see that they might be communicating some of the same sort of myopia as the friends he criticizes?
posted by R a c h e l at 2:54 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is a really interesting website! Thanks for posting the essay too.
One reason we don't talk about class in the US is because of systematic eradication of class-based projects - starting with the many ways (slavery, laws oppressing free Black Americans) that wedges were driven between working class white people and working class Black people. I think David Roediger (to drop an academic reference!) is pretty good on this. You get Pinkertons, Palmer Raids, exiling American anarchists, McCarthy, de-communisting the unions, etc. We lose generations of people who can talk about class and working class experience, and we lose them specifically to political campaigns led by people in the middle and upper classes.
There's some specific toxicity, IMO, to certain kinds of queer and trans "communities", especially young, highly-ideologized ones. Last year, a whole....a whole portfolio of shitty things happened in the larger social circle to which I used to belong. None to me, thankfully, but enough to friends that I've just basically dropped out. Some of it was about class, some of it was about transmisogyny, some of it was about gossip, some of it was about popular-versus-unpopular people with popularity modulated by but not exclusively determined by wealth and beauty. It was just godawful, and the internet did not help. So I kicked the dust from my heels. I don't have any dancing partners to speak of anymore, but I have lots less rage.
IME of this kind of highly-ideologized queer and trans community: when I'm feeling charitable, I think that what happens is that most people feel so bad, so marginalized and so not-belonging that we take it out on each other by constantly trying to one-up each other about who is the better leftist/queer/trans person/etc. I think a lot of us feel that if we aren't "perfect", victimization-wise, we really won't count. So there's a good deal of lying and backstabbing and general nastiness around a lot of things.
And then there's the real of it all - if you're from a professional class background, you can just go get your PhD and get a nice job on the coasts, where no one will really care that much if you're queer. And if you are upper working class, you can just get a job with health insurance and regular hours where people won't be able to care too much about if you're queer because of liberal HR regulations. And if you're neither, you're screwed. And if you're neither and you add race or mental illness to the picture, you're really screwed.
Also, I feel like in my erstwhile community, there weren't really strong behavior norms. Some of this was because people were laudably questioning a lot of bad behavior norms from mainstream and/or straight and/or cis society, but it also meant that lying and gossiping and accusing people of stuff and just generally shitty behavior were excused all the time. Like, you couldn't say "hey, when you ate all my food and took my scarf and said I was uptight and bourgeois because I didn't want to take off my clothes at the party, it was really hurtful and bad behavior", but you could say "well, you know that [she's from a rich family/calls herself bisexual instead of pansexual*/isn't vegan/drinks Coke products/writes "trans*" even though we're not supposed to do that anymore/got into an argument with someone and is therefore abusive] and there's no answer to any of those things even if they're not true.
It's like, I have simultaneously seen actual working class queer people treated really badly in relationships and driven out of projects, and seen people spread lies about how someone else must have "family money" for random nebulous reasons that boil down to "I don't like this person and they don't dress like me".
*Working class queer friend with a trans partner got into trouble over that one from middle class pansexuals, no less.
posted by Frowner at 2:56 PM on September 28, 2016 [59 favorites]
One reason we don't talk about class in the US is because of systematic eradication of class-based projects - starting with the many ways (slavery, laws oppressing free Black Americans) that wedges were driven between working class white people and working class Black people. I think David Roediger (to drop an academic reference!) is pretty good on this. You get Pinkertons, Palmer Raids, exiling American anarchists, McCarthy, de-communisting the unions, etc. We lose generations of people who can talk about class and working class experience, and we lose them specifically to political campaigns led by people in the middle and upper classes.
There's some specific toxicity, IMO, to certain kinds of queer and trans "communities", especially young, highly-ideologized ones. Last year, a whole....a whole portfolio of shitty things happened in the larger social circle to which I used to belong. None to me, thankfully, but enough to friends that I've just basically dropped out. Some of it was about class, some of it was about transmisogyny, some of it was about gossip, some of it was about popular-versus-unpopular people with popularity modulated by but not exclusively determined by wealth and beauty. It was just godawful, and the internet did not help. So I kicked the dust from my heels. I don't have any dancing partners to speak of anymore, but I have lots less rage.
IME of this kind of highly-ideologized queer and trans community: when I'm feeling charitable, I think that what happens is that most people feel so bad, so marginalized and so not-belonging that we take it out on each other by constantly trying to one-up each other about who is the better leftist/queer/trans person/etc. I think a lot of us feel that if we aren't "perfect", victimization-wise, we really won't count. So there's a good deal of lying and backstabbing and general nastiness around a lot of things.
And then there's the real of it all - if you're from a professional class background, you can just go get your PhD and get a nice job on the coasts, where no one will really care that much if you're queer. And if you are upper working class, you can just get a job with health insurance and regular hours where people won't be able to care too much about if you're queer because of liberal HR regulations. And if you're neither, you're screwed. And if you're neither and you add race or mental illness to the picture, you're really screwed.
Also, I feel like in my erstwhile community, there weren't really strong behavior norms. Some of this was because people were laudably questioning a lot of bad behavior norms from mainstream and/or straight and/or cis society, but it also meant that lying and gossiping and accusing people of stuff and just generally shitty behavior were excused all the time. Like, you couldn't say "hey, when you ate all my food and took my scarf and said I was uptight and bourgeois because I didn't want to take off my clothes at the party, it was really hurtful and bad behavior", but you could say "well, you know that [she's from a rich family/calls herself bisexual instead of pansexual*/isn't vegan/drinks Coke products/writes "trans*" even though we're not supposed to do that anymore/got into an argument with someone and is therefore abusive] and there's no answer to any of those things even if they're not true.
It's like, I have simultaneously seen actual working class queer people treated really badly in relationships and driven out of projects, and seen people spread lies about how someone else must have "family money" for random nebulous reasons that boil down to "I don't like this person and they don't dress like me".
*Working class queer friend with a trans partner got into trouble over that one from middle class pansexuals, no less.
posted by Frowner at 2:56 PM on September 28, 2016 [59 favorites]
I'm not sure that I agree that it's the "nation of embarrassed millionaires" thing. To me it's more that in North America, most people consider themselves, and anyone not actually homeless to be middle class, and anyone wealthier than them to be "rich."
Some people consider themselves to be "poor," but it's generally considered gauche to think of yourself as "rich." So most north americans assume they are the middle.
It's even present in TFA -- the author doesn't really given any evidence that his housemates were "playing" poor. Yeah, they got a couple of nice gifts, but does that mean that they could have afforded to purchase those things for themselves ever in their lives? Same with DarkMatter -- yeah, they are seeing some success now, but Stanford offers need-based financial aid.
Hell -- the author can afford to live in San Francisco, which I sure as hell can't. I should ask him for a grant.
posted by sparklemotion at 3:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Some people consider themselves to be "poor," but it's generally considered gauche to think of yourself as "rich." So most north americans assume they are the middle.
It's even present in TFA -- the author doesn't really given any evidence that his housemates were "playing" poor. Yeah, they got a couple of nice gifts, but does that mean that they could have afforded to purchase those things for themselves ever in their lives? Same with DarkMatter -- yeah, they are seeing some success now, but Stanford offers need-based financial aid.
Hell -- the author can afford to live in San Francisco, which I sure as hell can't. I should ask him for a grant.
posted by sparklemotion at 3:00 PM on September 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
I also think that these communities tend to be young precisely because as we get older, everyone's class destinies become clearer and people separate more. Who among us will go to grad school? Who among us will work in an office? Who among us will work in a warehouse? Who will do casual labor or sex work? Who will be accorded power, status and money and who will....not?
We like to pretend that this doesn't matter because it makes the business of dancing and hooking up easier, at least at first.
posted by Frowner at 3:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [37 favorites]
We like to pretend that this doesn't matter because it makes the business of dancing and hooking up easier, at least at first.
posted by Frowner at 3:10 PM on September 28, 2016 [37 favorites]
No one ever comes along and says "Yeah, that's how I spent my time as a teenager."
I know people who tell me they did that, though in LA not Marin.
posted by flaterik at 3:29 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know people who tell me they did that, though in LA not Marin.
posted by flaterik at 3:29 PM on September 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pharm
In his book Class, Paul Fussell notes that in a democracy we are to pretend that all are equal when in fact we are riven with class distinctions. The posted article mistakes saying class goes unnoticed. It seldom does and is always visible.
posted by Postroad at 3:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
In his book Class, Paul Fussell notes that in a democracy we are to pretend that all are equal when in fact we are riven with class distinctions. The posted article mistakes saying class goes unnoticed. It seldom does and is always visible.
posted by Postroad at 3:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
tbh if someone doesn't talk much about where they came from in lving situations like the author talks abiut, it's a red flag. queer scenes are rife with rich posers.
posted by ShawnStruck at 4:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ShawnStruck at 4:53 PM on September 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Our community has a phobia of privilege—especially when it’s ours. Because privilege isn’t cool anymore, we’re taking great measures to downplay ours and only selectively highlight the ways in which we’re oppressed. Because class is relatively invisible and awkward, it’s easiest to hide—especially when we’re marginalized in other ways.
Is it? I dunno, looking things up online and social media seem to have made class invisibility a tough claim to make. At the same time, the writer notes that class is relative without making much of that very good point: that AAA grew up as a foster child with a queer POC perspective and had a deep and fulfilling social connection to many friends but was passed from family to family for years; that XXX had famous parents and got into a great performing arts school but nevertheless grew up barefoot on a commune with no other children and didn't eat every day up to age 18; that BBB went to Yale on his parents' dime but the same parents' rejected him and out him through therapy and medication against his will during his teens; these are complicated nuances to the class question and maybe not the best context for "check your privilege" as social theory.
we have to stop glamorizing the queers who are highest on the food chain and listen to and empower those who are most marginalized
Glamorizing and empowering are not opposite ends of a spectrum.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Is it? I dunno, looking things up online and social media seem to have made class invisibility a tough claim to make. At the same time, the writer notes that class is relative without making much of that very good point: that AAA grew up as a foster child with a queer POC perspective and had a deep and fulfilling social connection to many friends but was passed from family to family for years; that XXX had famous parents and got into a great performing arts school but nevertheless grew up barefoot on a commune with no other children and didn't eat every day up to age 18; that BBB went to Yale on his parents' dime but the same parents' rejected him and out him through therapy and medication against his will during his teens; these are complicated nuances to the class question and maybe not the best context for "check your privilege" as social theory.
we have to stop glamorizing the queers who are highest on the food chain and listen to and empower those who are most marginalized
Glamorizing and empowering are not opposite ends of a spectrum.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:59 PM on September 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
How do you tell when your friends are cheating in the oppression and victimization competition in your mind?
posted by knoyers at 5:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by knoyers at 5:02 PM on September 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
Class is such a hard thing to pick apart because it's not fixed in quite the same way that race is (and I say that with a grandmother who passes as white in various parts of the country, and a mom who was read as Hispanic in her childhood, and now read as white). Income is variable over a lifetime. And most people tend to identify with their young broke self. It is hard to know how much to weight the resources of your family, especially when those resources might come with abusive strings attached. Part of what makes the South such a weird place is that privileged class was burned to the ground. But while the wealth disappeared, the class markers stayed behind.
I struggle a lot with my class privilege. I feel I don't have a model for how to be a good ally, the way I do with race or sexuality. Which isn't to say that being a privileged ally is easy. It's constant self-realization, while the human brain is hard-wired to lie to ourselves. But even progressive models of how to be ethically upper class were created by philanthropists, which have harmful paternal overtones.
But both talking and being quiet about my privilege feels like part of the problem. And honestly, it has caused situations where people feel entitled to my help without my consent. Which is especially problematic since they always assume I have more resources than I actually have. And I realize that's more about individuals and less about class issues. But it does make it hard to discuss more concretely than a theoretical way.
posted by politikitty at 5:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I struggle a lot with my class privilege. I feel I don't have a model for how to be a good ally, the way I do with race or sexuality. Which isn't to say that being a privileged ally is easy. It's constant self-realization, while the human brain is hard-wired to lie to ourselves. But even progressive models of how to be ethically upper class were created by philanthropists, which have harmful paternal overtones.
But both talking and being quiet about my privilege feels like part of the problem. And honestly, it has caused situations where people feel entitled to my help without my consent. Which is especially problematic since they always assume I have more resources than I actually have. And I realize that's more about individuals and less about class issues. But it does make it hard to discuss more concretely than a theoretical way.
posted by politikitty at 5:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
After reading this account of confrontation about appropriating the affects of poverty, I wonder if fostering solid relationships amongst people who identify with particular class affects is a better way to confront this kind of appropriation than making unilateral decision that your acquaintances are behaving inappropriately? I'm in a "mixed class privilege" relationship, if that's a term for it. We're queer, and we have kids. Our kids are getting an education that I hope is more resonant than the ex-housemate confrontation described in TFA. If I were approached like that, it'd feel competitive, or maybe disdainful, rather than resonant.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:09 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I feel like I don't have a model to be a good ally.
politikitty, I totally agree. In my experience with radical queer communities, I've only known one person to have fully acknowledged her class privilege - which she then used to keep people dependent with things like housing and transition costs. I think she does it in the name of trying to be a good ally and using her privilege for good, but there's gotta be a better way of doing it than paying for everyone's stuff all the time and later using it to manipulate them.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 5:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
politikitty, I totally agree. In my experience with radical queer communities, I've only known one person to have fully acknowledged her class privilege - which she then used to keep people dependent with things like housing and transition costs. I think she does it in the name of trying to be a good ally and using her privilege for good, but there's gotta be a better way of doing it than paying for everyone's stuff all the time and later using it to manipulate them.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 5:18 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
You can see it in the Haight or Berkeley where rich Marin teenagers masquerade as homeless people and demand charity in a way no legitimately indigent person would ever dare.
One would expect Metafilter, which is rife with white people from comfortable backgrounds would have a few such people, if they only existed.
My note on this jam is that I clicked the "about" section of the linked website and my first thought was, wait, the author grew up in Pasadena?
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
One would expect Metafilter, which is rife with white people from comfortable backgrounds would have a few such people, if they only existed.
My note on this jam is that I clicked the "about" section of the linked website and my first thought was, wait, the author grew up in Pasadena?
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:20 PM on September 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Part of the reason it’s hard to talk about class in America is that people conflate social and economic class, but they’re really distinct.
It’s much harder to recognize social class privilege than economic class privilege. Even the author of TFA doesn’t seem to recognize their own social privilege — it’s the privilege that comes with getting to college in the first place, and all the nebulous little subtextual things you learn while you’re there that teach you how to behave in the white collar world. The author felt bad about the kind of food they cooked at their potluck dinners, but by being there and being exposed to "higher class” cooking, their own social class was automatically raised above someone who is never exposed to that kind of thing. And that kind of thing matters both in how successful you can be in changing your economic class and how comfortable you feel when you’re doing it.
Additionally, many kids who are socially and economically middle class go through a phase of young adulthood in which they are economically lower class. Is it easier to endure that if you have a family that can take you in as an alternative to homelessness? Absolutely, and that should be recognized. But if you are totally broke, and truly just scraping by, you’re not going to buy it when someone tells you you’re being a poverty poser, even if you grew up middle class.
Finally, the ways that social class can be disadvantaging are not limited to social class. A lack of exposure to the broader world can come with racism as well as classism. And while poverty naturally correlates to things like familial instability and illness (because sheer lack of money makes otherwise- solvable problems unsolvable and can force people to cope in maladaptive ways) those very real disadvantages are also not exclusive to the lower social classes.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 5:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
It’s much harder to recognize social class privilege than economic class privilege. Even the author of TFA doesn’t seem to recognize their own social privilege — it’s the privilege that comes with getting to college in the first place, and all the nebulous little subtextual things you learn while you’re there that teach you how to behave in the white collar world. The author felt bad about the kind of food they cooked at their potluck dinners, but by being there and being exposed to "higher class” cooking, their own social class was automatically raised above someone who is never exposed to that kind of thing. And that kind of thing matters both in how successful you can be in changing your economic class and how comfortable you feel when you’re doing it.
Additionally, many kids who are socially and economically middle class go through a phase of young adulthood in which they are economically lower class. Is it easier to endure that if you have a family that can take you in as an alternative to homelessness? Absolutely, and that should be recognized. But if you are totally broke, and truly just scraping by, you’re not going to buy it when someone tells you you’re being a poverty poser, even if you grew up middle class.
Finally, the ways that social class can be disadvantaging are not limited to social class. A lack of exposure to the broader world can come with racism as well as classism. And while poverty naturally correlates to things like familial instability and illness (because sheer lack of money makes otherwise- solvable problems unsolvable and can force people to cope in maladaptive ways) those very real disadvantages are also not exclusive to the lower social classes.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 5:30 PM on September 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
I think the term class privilege has been stretched a bit thin when lack of clinical anxiety symptoms is now a privilege.
posted by fraxil at 6:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by fraxil at 6:16 PM on September 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
You can see it in the Haight or Berkeley where rich Marin teenagers masquerade as homeless people and demand charity in a way no legitimately indigent person would ever dare.
I'm an upper class San Franciscan and I... to my knowledge, that's not what's going on in the Haight specifically, and I say that because my friends have been those kids. Many of them absolutely were rich Marin kids (or Berkeley kids, or SF kids, or whatever), but they were living on the street because they were addicts, kicked out of the house for being gay or trans, or having a serious mental breakdown. It wasn't anarcho-communist praxis, it was suffering. Anyway, I don't doubt that there are homeless tourists, and I don't want to derail, just wanted to note that coming from the upper class and having access to resources aren't actually the same thing. Hope this is ok, I know I've been a dick about class on MeFi before and don't want to repeat the error.
I'm thinking hard about TFA. He's right that poverty drag is remarkably easy in leftist circles. I know I've done standard lefty things that in ways that misled my friends into thinking I was in a totally different situation than I actually was. So a call for clarity and attention is useful, to me.
posted by peppercorn at 6:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
I'm an upper class San Franciscan and I... to my knowledge, that's not what's going on in the Haight specifically, and I say that because my friends have been those kids. Many of them absolutely were rich Marin kids (or Berkeley kids, or SF kids, or whatever), but they were living on the street because they were addicts, kicked out of the house for being gay or trans, or having a serious mental breakdown. It wasn't anarcho-communist praxis, it was suffering. Anyway, I don't doubt that there are homeless tourists, and I don't want to derail, just wanted to note that coming from the upper class and having access to resources aren't actually the same thing. Hope this is ok, I know I've been a dick about class on MeFi before and don't want to repeat the error.
I'm thinking hard about TFA. He's right that poverty drag is remarkably easy in leftist circles. I know I've done standard lefty things that in ways that misled my friends into thinking I was in a totally different situation than I actually was. So a call for clarity and attention is useful, to me.
posted by peppercorn at 6:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
if you're from a professional class background, you can just go get your PhD and get a nice job on the coasts,
I get what you mean, but it isn't quite like that anymore. if you're NOT from a professional class background and you go get your Ph.D. it's also a different ball game.
posted by listen, lady at 6:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I get what you mean, but it isn't quite like that anymore. if you're NOT from a professional class background and you go get your Ph.D. it's also a different ball game.
posted by listen, lady at 6:41 PM on September 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
To me, "class privilege" is climate and "cash on hand" is weather. I believe it's possible for a person to appear be "cash poor" and yet still be "class wealthy" at the same time.
This article does a good job of describing the difference between "cash on hand" and "class on hand" and how people can conflate the two in really sad ways.
I wish I could give the writer of that article a hug.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
This article does a good job of describing the difference between "cash on hand" and "class on hand" and how people can conflate the two in really sad ways.
I wish I could give the writer of that article a hug.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:05 PM on September 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
To me, "class privilege" is climate and "cash on hand" is weather. I believe it's possible for a person to appear be "cash poor" and yet still be "class wealthy" at the same time.
Oh, yeah, the term for that is social capital or cultural capital.
posted by listen, lady at 7:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh, yeah, the term for that is social capital or cultural capital.
posted by listen, lady at 7:40 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Wow, the internet rarely manages to surprise me anymore, but having been a queer Armenian-American teen back in the day, the fact that this website exists for this community brought a little tear to mine eye.
posted by the marble index at 12:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the marble index at 12:07 AM on September 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Uhgh, I come from a relatively poor (welfare) background but that constant pursuit of the lowest state of privilege is one of the reasons why I avoid radical communities like the plague, despite being a left leaning person.
I don't have the time or resources to handle that level of being accountable to everyone's hurt feelings- to a point the author is demanding that everyone not make them look bad to the imaginary standard in their head.
True, the call outs get bloody tedious, particularly when you are trying to get shit done and now you get a three day fight on how it is tone policing to ask not to be insulted. Or even on here someone gets to discuss how "problematic" your sexuality is because BDSM makes them feel uncomfortable, one of the reasons I don't post as much here anymore.
I wish I could favorite this post more.
I like Mujukian's observations, but he seems guilty enough himself. I mean, most people I actually know, in person, wouldn't understand a word of that first sentence used in this fpp. It took me a bit to parse it myself. Reading the article, I had to look up "Latinx". And I'm Latino! (Or Latinx, as it were.) Now, I'm not actually diminished by "The Queer Poor Aesthetic". Maybe it's because I'm not Armenian, queer, young, college educated, etc. Which is fine. Not everything is meant to be broadcast for general audiences. But if is that narrowly focused, does it really reflect the best of the web? Why should I have even bothered to read it at all? Or care about its message? I think it's entirely possible that a young person, very similar to Mujukian's age and background, might read the article and feel completely left out in the cold for not really understanding the jargon, the narratives, the concepts presented because it is so narrowly focused, so mired in its own universe.
Sure, it sounds like DarkMatter is obnoxious. I've never had time for that kind of radicalism because it's all so wrapped up with a heaping helping of self absorption. And even worse, the very people they tend to lionize, advocate for, imitate, etc, often find the efforts self serving and/or irrelevant to their actual lives. These are circles where oppression olympics, humblebragging and activism are high status competitive sports. It's pretty rare I've come across tourists of the type Mujukian seems to have lived with. I'm pretty grateful, even privileged to have been associated mostly with people who are fairly comfortable with who they are and situations they may have to endure. It seems that most appreciate sincere camaraderie even if it isn't fluent in the lingo of someone's unique situation.
posted by 2N2222 at 12:43 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think there's a phase that a lot of different types of marginalized people grow through where they begin to realize the world is just this shitty fucked up place and there's a desire to wanna go back to the matrix but that's not an option, which leaves feeling completely pissed at how everything turned out. And then everything is a constant reminder that there's "the matrix" and then there's THIS place where the only food is goopy gruel. Then eventually after enough friction with damn near every experience one has in a day, the irritation wears off and leaves behind a patina of understanding, a protective coating. So basically I respect this person's process and don't really judge them for their privilege stacking and sorting. Their world has been completely upended and what used to work no longer works and they need to figure the new rules out.
And that's kind of a pouty, miserable, whining process filled with call outs, tears, rending of garments and flailing about on social media.
*shrugs* *hugs*
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
And that's kind of a pouty, miserable, whining process filled with call outs, tears, rending of garments and flailing about on social media.
*shrugs* *hugs*
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:22 AM on September 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Ha, that tumblr post:
I think this is why we get a lot of the tumblr arguments we get. like one person’s like “ask every single person you meet for pronouns no exceptions or you’re a bad person” and someone reading that who isn’t part of an urban leftist queer scene is like??? you want me to as the aggressively homophobic straight men who live in my open carry state for their pronouns?????? but no one wants to add “disclaimer: I go to smith college/live in Montreal/have completely forgotten what fear feels like” to their posts
(In re asking for pronouns - I don't do this unless I'm really sure of my environment, because it puts gender-non-conforming and trans people on the spot. Folks may not want to share their pronouns in uncertain or hostile spaces and may just prefer to go with "however folks read me, I don't want to have a big fight right now".)
I feel like queer and trans social spaces are so often spaces of accusation, and that makes it really hard to deal with actual inequality and violence. We live in this "gotcha" mode, where you need to call someone out loudly and publicly for violating a really mixed list of norms - you need to call someone out for sexual harassment, and you also need to call someone out for saying that they're bisexual instead of pansexual, or not realizing that white sugar is sometimes made with bone char. It's all one big Facebook nightmare.
And the gotchas can't be refuted - so you need to take care to have enough status so no one gotchas you in the first place. One big reason I dropped out of my former social circle was the fact that a cis person put it about that their trans partner was "abusive" while actually abusing their trans partner, who was socially marginalized enough in this group that very few people knew the truth. Who is still popular? The cis abuser. Who lost a bunch of friends? The trans victim. And that's because no amount of "listen to me, I saw this all play out for like a year and what is being said about these people is not true" ever gets believed or listened to.
So I feel like what happens is that the dynamic of "class call-outs gets totally divorced from the reality of class inequality.
The reality is complicated. Sometimes it's really simple - if you have a good job, you should pay for more stuff; if you can give or loan someone money, you should do so; if you have a car and someone else doesn't, you should help them out with rides when you can; if you're in a really economically unequal shared housing situation, the rent can be partly sliding scale.
But you get into all kinds of stuff that's a lot harder. What happens between two people of roughly equivalent economic status if one has savings and the other doesn't? Do I pay for other people's rent or car repairs and empty my small savings account? What happens if someone is genuinely poor but also genuinely messed up? How much do you help them and with what?
I think about this because, as I've mentioned here before, I live in a house and have housed people when they didn't have another place to stay. Sometimes it's been great, sometimes it's been meh, and a couple of times it's been really, really hard. One of my housemates, who has health concerns of their own, gets super on edge when we've had crises with houseguests and really wants us to stop hosting people.
How do I figure that one out? I'm certainly coming from a position of privilege, in that I have a stable place to live (knock on wood!) and even a spare room. What happens when someone is in need but also has, eg, a heroin habit? How do I choose between people who are in need, since there's certainly no shortage of people with precarious housing? Is there ever a point when I can just say, yes, I am privileged to have this house and no, I do not want another person living with us right now?
And I know that looks amazingly shitty if you're the person who is precariously housed, but it also looks amazingly shitty when you're dealing with someone who [brings in stuff off the street that may have bedbugs/invites strangers home/forgets to lock the door when sometimes people actually walk up to the house and try the door for robbery reasons/other stressful stuff].
posted by Frowner at 6:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
I think this is why we get a lot of the tumblr arguments we get. like one person’s like “ask every single person you meet for pronouns no exceptions or you’re a bad person” and someone reading that who isn’t part of an urban leftist queer scene is like??? you want me to as the aggressively homophobic straight men who live in my open carry state for their pronouns?????? but no one wants to add “disclaimer: I go to smith college/live in Montreal/have completely forgotten what fear feels like” to their posts
(In re asking for pronouns - I don't do this unless I'm really sure of my environment, because it puts gender-non-conforming and trans people on the spot. Folks may not want to share their pronouns in uncertain or hostile spaces and may just prefer to go with "however folks read me, I don't want to have a big fight right now".)
I feel like queer and trans social spaces are so often spaces of accusation, and that makes it really hard to deal with actual inequality and violence. We live in this "gotcha" mode, where you need to call someone out loudly and publicly for violating a really mixed list of norms - you need to call someone out for sexual harassment, and you also need to call someone out for saying that they're bisexual instead of pansexual, or not realizing that white sugar is sometimes made with bone char. It's all one big Facebook nightmare.
And the gotchas can't be refuted - so you need to take care to have enough status so no one gotchas you in the first place. One big reason I dropped out of my former social circle was the fact that a cis person put it about that their trans partner was "abusive" while actually abusing their trans partner, who was socially marginalized enough in this group that very few people knew the truth. Who is still popular? The cis abuser. Who lost a bunch of friends? The trans victim. And that's because no amount of "listen to me, I saw this all play out for like a year and what is being said about these people is not true" ever gets believed or listened to.
So I feel like what happens is that the dynamic of "class call-outs gets totally divorced from the reality of class inequality.
The reality is complicated. Sometimes it's really simple - if you have a good job, you should pay for more stuff; if you can give or loan someone money, you should do so; if you have a car and someone else doesn't, you should help them out with rides when you can; if you're in a really economically unequal shared housing situation, the rent can be partly sliding scale.
But you get into all kinds of stuff that's a lot harder. What happens between two people of roughly equivalent economic status if one has savings and the other doesn't? Do I pay for other people's rent or car repairs and empty my small savings account? What happens if someone is genuinely poor but also genuinely messed up? How much do you help them and with what?
I think about this because, as I've mentioned here before, I live in a house and have housed people when they didn't have another place to stay. Sometimes it's been great, sometimes it's been meh, and a couple of times it's been really, really hard. One of my housemates, who has health concerns of their own, gets super on edge when we've had crises with houseguests and really wants us to stop hosting people.
How do I figure that one out? I'm certainly coming from a position of privilege, in that I have a stable place to live (knock on wood!) and even a spare room. What happens when someone is in need but also has, eg, a heroin habit? How do I choose between people who are in need, since there's certainly no shortage of people with precarious housing? Is there ever a point when I can just say, yes, I am privileged to have this house and no, I do not want another person living with us right now?
And I know that looks amazingly shitty if you're the person who is precariously housed, but it also looks amazingly shitty when you're dealing with someone who [brings in stuff off the street that may have bedbugs/invites strangers home/forgets to lock the door when sometimes people actually walk up to the house and try the door for robbery reasons/other stressful stuff].
posted by Frowner at 6:33 AM on September 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
Tumblr fundraisers are good in some ways, because they allow costs to be shared - if I have more money, I can give more money, but the person receiving the funds isn't uniquely beholden to me, nor am I responsible for deciding between having a little in savings and paying for the whole of their need.
The drawback is that the people who do best with tumblr fundraisers, IME, are the people who have the most charm, organization, popularity or personal beauty. Someone whose life is a mess can have real trouble, even if they're the person who needs the money most.
A problem is that this part of the left is constantly trying to recreate state organizations within itself, and doing badly. There's no meaningful welfare state for most people, so we're always trying to create one on an informal basis. The justice system is shit, so people try to deal with sexual assault, violence and significant theft internally. And of course, that means that it's done inconsistently and badly and without expertise or resources, and then it all comes down to "you don't deal well with your class privilege". What ought to be happening is some kind of central process with some kind of power to compel - don't rely on the charity model, where we attempt to guilt people into whatever, because we can see on the right how fucked up that is.
posted by Frowner at 7:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
The drawback is that the people who do best with tumblr fundraisers, IME, are the people who have the most charm, organization, popularity or personal beauty. Someone whose life is a mess can have real trouble, even if they're the person who needs the money most.
A problem is that this part of the left is constantly trying to recreate state organizations within itself, and doing badly. There's no meaningful welfare state for most people, so we're always trying to create one on an informal basis. The justice system is shit, so people try to deal with sexual assault, violence and significant theft internally. And of course, that means that it's done inconsistently and badly and without expertise or resources, and then it all comes down to "you don't deal well with your class privilege". What ought to be happening is some kind of central process with some kind of power to compel - don't rely on the charity model, where we attempt to guilt people into whatever, because we can see on the right how fucked up that is.
posted by Frowner at 7:17 AM on September 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
I went to an event the other night that was ostensibly a panel about queer women and leadership, and the first speaker set off so many alarm bells for me that it was difficult to get anything out of the rest of the event. She opened with...I don't even know what to call it but a "check your privilege" tone. Like it was accusatory, from the outset.
And then she launched into a true word salad about queer trans POC identities and femme erasure -- I say word salad because I was listening intently and I honestly have no idea what the meaning of her speech was, except, as I'll get to, as a performance -- before demanding a moment of silence for someone in her community who had recently killed themselves, without any context, or any information about this person who had died.
And she did it all while looking at and speaking to the several rows of people she clearly already knew in the back.
It set off all of these alarm bells not because of the subject matter, but because of the style -- it was intensely performative, and angry, and she used this time *and someone's death* for the applause and approval of the narrow social group who had accompanied her. There wasn't even an attempt to tie it into the subject of the panel, or to engage with the humanity of anyone else in that room. Everyone was a prop. It felt deeply toxic to me, in the insidious way that you can't recognize when you're young and relatively inexperienced.
And mostly it made me think about reactions to trauma, and how many toxic or abusive personalities are the results of their own trauma. And how many people in marginalized groups have more than their fair share of traumatic and abusive experiences.
And then about how they inevitably continue that cycle of abuse and trauma in the communities they seek to foster for themselves.
I grew up in and out of these circles, and I stay far the fuck away now, and this (as well as personal health reasons) is a big part of why.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
And then she launched into a true word salad about queer trans POC identities and femme erasure -- I say word salad because I was listening intently and I honestly have no idea what the meaning of her speech was, except, as I'll get to, as a performance -- before demanding a moment of silence for someone in her community who had recently killed themselves, without any context, or any information about this person who had died.
And she did it all while looking at and speaking to the several rows of people she clearly already knew in the back.
It set off all of these alarm bells not because of the subject matter, but because of the style -- it was intensely performative, and angry, and she used this time *and someone's death* for the applause and approval of the narrow social group who had accompanied her. There wasn't even an attempt to tie it into the subject of the panel, or to engage with the humanity of anyone else in that room. Everyone was a prop. It felt deeply toxic to me, in the insidious way that you can't recognize when you're young and relatively inexperienced.
And mostly it made me think about reactions to trauma, and how many toxic or abusive personalities are the results of their own trauma. And how many people in marginalized groups have more than their fair share of traumatic and abusive experiences.
And then about how they inevitably continue that cycle of abuse and trauma in the communities they seek to foster for themselves.
I grew up in and out of these circles, and I stay far the fuck away now, and this (as well as personal health reasons) is a big part of why.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:30 AM on September 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Is there ever a point when I can just say, yes, I am privileged to have this house and no, I do not want another person living with us right now?
Um, yes. You are never required to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Um, yes. You are never required to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:32 AM on September 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Is there ever a point when I can just say, yes, I am privileged to have this house and no, I do not want another person living with us right now?
I had a whole head of steam going on a rant about how of course you don't have any obligation to share your home with others, and how that's just playing into the hands of anti-SJ types who want to equate recognizing privilege with communism but then I read your second comment.
A problem is that this part of the left is constantly trying to recreate state organizations within itself, and doing badly. There's no meaningful welfare state for most people, so we're always trying to create one on an informal basis.
And I think I get it a little more now. And this actually speaks to part of why I have trouble with "The Left," as much as most of my principles are fairly left-wing. Because "the state" (as represented generally by the tapestry of governing systems of post-enlightenment Western civilizations) is a complex organization that has evolved over centuries, and trying to recreate that informally (even by well-meaning folks) seems pretty much doomed to chaos, or the creation of fiefdoms led by the most charismatic.
I agree though that we need actual safety nets instead of this piecemeal charity based nonsense (which happens to be super popular on the Right, too).
posted by sparklemotion at 8:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I had a whole head of steam going on a rant about how of course you don't have any obligation to share your home with others, and how that's just playing into the hands of anti-SJ types who want to equate recognizing privilege with communism but then I read your second comment.
A problem is that this part of the left is constantly trying to recreate state organizations within itself, and doing badly. There's no meaningful welfare state for most people, so we're always trying to create one on an informal basis.
And I think I get it a little more now. And this actually speaks to part of why I have trouble with "The Left," as much as most of my principles are fairly left-wing. Because "the state" (as represented generally by the tapestry of governing systems of post-enlightenment Western civilizations) is a complex organization that has evolved over centuries, and trying to recreate that informally (even by well-meaning folks) seems pretty much doomed to chaos, or the creation of fiefdoms led by the most charismatic.
I agree though that we need actual safety nets instead of this piecemeal charity based nonsense (which happens to be super popular on the Right, too).
posted by sparklemotion at 8:45 AM on September 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
and seen people spread lies about how someone else must have "family money" for random nebulous reasons that boil down to "I don't like this person and they don't dress like me".
Of course, that's hardly exclusive to LGBTQ communities. See, for instance, the last 20+ years of "hipster"-bashing.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:23 AM on September 29, 2016
Of course, that's hardly exclusive to LGBTQ communities. See, for instance, the last 20+ years of "hipster"-bashing.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:23 AM on September 29, 2016
I agree though that we need actual safety nets instead of this piecemeal charity based nonsense (which happens to be super popular on the Right, too).
I see a lot of people on the left with low-self esteem and leaky boundaries stuck in a lifetime of this kind of messy drama . I figure that's because we're in a world where the boundaries of the conflict between "capital" and "labor" are decidedly favoring "capital" in the US at least, and the function of our society no longer serves to empower citizens to live a great life, but rather to empower a certain kind of personality to run roughshod over everything in a mad grab for profits.
That does create a lot of psychic pain for me to see this happening in the U.S. I suffer this. For a long that suffering informed my beliefs and feelings and actions. I gave and gave and gave because I see so many people who are not of "the right personality" being denied the empowerment to be able to live a great life, but rather, live in a permanent never-ending competition based on false scarcity. So for a long time I wanted to do what I could do to make up for it.
But in the end, I am just another sucker with low self-esteem and poor boundaries. Trying.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I see a lot of people on the left with low-self esteem and leaky boundaries stuck in a lifetime of this kind of messy drama . I figure that's because we're in a world where the boundaries of the conflict between "capital" and "labor" are decidedly favoring "capital" in the US at least, and the function of our society no longer serves to empower citizens to live a great life, but rather to empower a certain kind of personality to run roughshod over everything in a mad grab for profits.
That does create a lot of psychic pain for me to see this happening in the U.S. I suffer this. For a long that suffering informed my beliefs and feelings and actions. I gave and gave and gave because I see so many people who are not of "the right personality" being denied the empowerment to be able to live a great life, but rather, live in a permanent never-ending competition based on false scarcity. So for a long time I wanted to do what I could do to make up for it.
But in the end, I am just another sucker with low self-esteem and poor boundaries. Trying.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:21 AM on September 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Because class is relatively invisible and awkward, it’s easiest to hide—especially when we’re marginalized in other ways.Is it? I dunno, looking things up online and social media seem to have made class invisibility a tough claim to make.
Class is visible - usually very visible - but it's so uncouth to talk about that it seems invisible. We get so good at automatically transmuting class observations into moral judgments that we don't even notice that we're doing it.
posted by clawsoon at 10:24 AM on September 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
See, for instance, the last 20+ years of "hipster"-bashing.
Many moons ago I was a corporate stooge working on a big project which required 12 hour days for weeks on end, including weekends. I was very, very stressed out and had internally conflicting feelings about said stoogehood as I identified (or at least professed to identify) primarily as a musician. One night I went with my wife to the Cafe du Nord (RIP) to see a band I thought I liked. Over the course of their set I drank two Racer 5 IPAs. By the time their disappointing set ended I was extremely and aggressively inebriated, the mechanics of which to this day remain something of a mystery but probably have to do with the stress.
Anyhow, on the way out I encountered a good-looking man in a suit and fedora with long hair and an elaborate moustache who looked, to my stress-and-beer-addled mind, very smug. This clearly unhinged me vis my conflicting identities (and general insecurity about my appearance), because in an uncharacteristic display of vehemence I leaned in towards him and yelled "FUCKING HIPSTER!" as I passed by.
My wife told me that, when she turned around to see if he was angry, he was instead smiling, and his smile was very wide indeed.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Many moons ago I was a corporate stooge working on a big project which required 12 hour days for weeks on end, including weekends. I was very, very stressed out and had internally conflicting feelings about said stoogehood as I identified (or at least professed to identify) primarily as a musician. One night I went with my wife to the Cafe du Nord (RIP) to see a band I thought I liked. Over the course of their set I drank two Racer 5 IPAs. By the time their disappointing set ended I was extremely and aggressively inebriated, the mechanics of which to this day remain something of a mystery but probably have to do with the stress.
Anyhow, on the way out I encountered a good-looking man in a suit and fedora with long hair and an elaborate moustache who looked, to my stress-and-beer-addled mind, very smug. This clearly unhinged me vis my conflicting identities (and general insecurity about my appearance), because in an uncharacteristic display of vehemence I leaned in towards him and yelled "FUCKING HIPSTER!" as I passed by.
My wife told me that, when she turned around to see if he was angry, he was instead smiling, and his smile was very wide indeed.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:00 AM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
"One would expect Metafilter, which is rife with white people from comfortable backgrounds would have a few such people, if they only existed"
@hoyland, I remember my friends speaking about that myth when I lived in SF in the late 90s. Funny, I don't recall where it came from.
Having spent time with the homeless in NYC and having a brief experience with homelessness, I would hazard to guess this mythical group of homeless youth might in fact struggling with drug abuse and or mental health problems.
Every class in society, at some point, breaks under the strain of problems which they can't 'fix'.
posted by xtian at 4:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
@hoyland, I remember my friends speaking about that myth when I lived in SF in the late 90s. Funny, I don't recall where it came from.
Having spent time with the homeless in NYC and having a brief experience with homelessness, I would hazard to guess this mythical group of homeless youth might in fact struggling with drug abuse and or mental health problems.
Every class in society, at some point, breaks under the strain of problems which they can't 'fix'.
posted by xtian at 4:07 PM on September 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Grumpybear69 said: "Cafe Du Nord (RIP)"
?? I may live in NYC now, so I can't verify this myself, but Google says it's still there. What do you mean?
posted by xtian at 4:48 PM on September 29, 2016
?? I may live in NYC now, so I can't verify this myself, but Google says it's still there. What do you mean?
posted by xtian at 4:48 PM on September 29, 2016
Oh, it is still there in name, but it is no longer a rock club.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:28 PM on September 29, 2016
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:28 PM on September 29, 2016
But you get into all kinds of stuff that's a lot harder. What happens between two people of roughly equivalent economic status if one has savings and the other doesn't? Do I pay for other people's rent or car repairs and empty my small savings account? What happens if someone is genuinely poor but also genuinely messed up? How much do you help them and with what?
I think about this a lot right now because in my circle of trans friends, I make the most money and have the steadiest employment, probably by far. Everyone's housed and eating, but most are scraping by and not necessarily in the living situation they'd prefer.
I'm privileged in that I came out after I was financially independent and my family, though somewhat distant, has more or less accepted me. About half the trans people I know have zero or little contact with their families. I'm privileged because transition didn't limit my educational opportunities, and because I was immediately accepted at work when I came out instead of summarily fired like some people I know (yes, it is legal).
I try to be as generous as possible without being insulting, but it's a fine line to walk. I'm saving money for an upcoming surgery right now - I expect to have to pay $10k out of pocket - and I feel intensely guilty for not giving more to others.
posted by AFABulous at 8:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think about this a lot right now because in my circle of trans friends, I make the most money and have the steadiest employment, probably by far. Everyone's housed and eating, but most are scraping by and not necessarily in the living situation they'd prefer.
I'm privileged in that I came out after I was financially independent and my family, though somewhat distant, has more or less accepted me. About half the trans people I know have zero or little contact with their families. I'm privileged because transition didn't limit my educational opportunities, and because I was immediately accepted at work when I came out instead of summarily fired like some people I know (yes, it is legal).
I try to be as generous as possible without being insulting, but it's a fine line to walk. I'm saving money for an upcoming surgery right now - I expect to have to pay $10k out of pocket - and I feel intensely guilty for not giving more to others.
posted by AFABulous at 8:09 PM on September 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, being trans is complicated.
I'm privileged in that I'm out to my friends and family, and the vast majority of them are extremely supportive, and I love them to bits for it. I'm also privileged in that I'm doing this during school, and they've been great about it as well. However, I'm also not employed.
However, my complication? I'm doing this without HRT. I'm an FTM, and both times I've tried Testosterone, it really flared my anxiety and depression out of control, and with this last round? possible mania! (My doctors and therapists know about this, and they said that HRT is contraindicated for now. I am working with them to find a solution.) Without T in my system? I am calm and in control. However, I'm never going to get the masculinizing features of the hormone, and no matter what I do? I register as 'LADY!' to everyone I meet, despite having a crew cut, wearing male clothes, and giving my male name, etc.
So that leaves me in a quandary, especially when I start job hunting soon. I haven't changed anything legally yet, so I can still look for work as a female, and not appease the dysphoria demons - but probably get hired. Which, for now, I've chosen to do. So everything's on 'pause' for now. I'm OK with that.
I've gotten criticism from other trans folk for this approach, but you know? Every single one of those people were also employed and out at their work places. Let me get hired, people, and then I can join you.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm privileged in that I'm out to my friends and family, and the vast majority of them are extremely supportive, and I love them to bits for it. I'm also privileged in that I'm doing this during school, and they've been great about it as well. However, I'm also not employed.
However, my complication? I'm doing this without HRT. I'm an FTM, and both times I've tried Testosterone, it really flared my anxiety and depression out of control, and with this last round? possible mania! (My doctors and therapists know about this, and they said that HRT is contraindicated for now. I am working with them to find a solution.) Without T in my system? I am calm and in control. However, I'm never going to get the masculinizing features of the hormone, and no matter what I do? I register as 'LADY!' to everyone I meet, despite having a crew cut, wearing male clothes, and giving my male name, etc.
So that leaves me in a quandary, especially when I start job hunting soon. I haven't changed anything legally yet, so I can still look for work as a female, and not appease the dysphoria demons - but probably get hired. Which, for now, I've chosen to do. So everything's on 'pause' for now. I'm OK with that.
I've gotten criticism from other trans folk for this approach, but you know? Every single one of those people were also employed and out at their work places. Let me get hired, people, and then I can join you.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:19 PM on September 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ugh, no trans person should be judging anyone else for how they do their transition. Everyone knows what feels safe to them. Lots of guys don't do medical interventions. It's definitely harder for them, because they don't always fit into society's idea of what a man should look like, but it's no one's place to judge their reasons. We're a tiny group as it is; I hate to see us fracture further.
posted by AFABulous at 9:32 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 9:32 AM on October 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the one hand, I know that I can wear male clothes, walk down the street, and not face violence because of it. My wardrobe has not changed barely at all. So that is a plus. But yeah - Not being able to rock a mean goatee is going to put a hinderance on the appearance department re: other's gendering of me.
posted by spinifex23 at 10:12 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by spinifex23 at 10:12 AM on October 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't mean to scare you, but I would think you're at increased risk of violence if people think you are a woman - either because they think you're a lesbian or because you're visibly trans. My beard (such as it is) and my voice are security blankets for me - I pass 100% of the time and feel perfectly safe 95% of the time. (Which is, of course, a huge privilege.)
posted by AFABulous at 12:27 PM on October 1, 2016
posted by AFABulous at 12:27 PM on October 1, 2016
That's true. I'm also in a bubble here in Seattle/Puget Sound.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:04 PM on October 1, 2016
posted by spinifex23 at 11:04 PM on October 1, 2016
One of the things that really bugs me about...I dunno, tumblr-savvy, I guess you could say...trans communities is the relentless "we must find a reason to knock you down because of your privilege, regardless of your actual experience" routine.
Spinifex23, you could be on hormones and the non-hormone-taking guys would be all "you have so much privilege because your gender is less ambiguous, also you get male privilege now". Have you gotten the line about how trans men and masculine spectrum people get all the dates and all the employment yet?
It's like, in social circles where everyone is, in fact, facing different kinds but approximately equal amounts of struggle (which is how these social settings usually go, IME) everyone is obsessed with pointing out how easy everyone else has it, what a piece of cake their lives are and how much harm they're doing just by existing as such spoiled babies. It's a way of asserting social status as much as anything else.
Again, one of the reasons I dropped out of a particular social circle was because of how all this "you are so privileged and bad" narrative was turned against an actually disabled trans woman and nothing anyone said (by which I mean nothing I said) made any difference.
What I'd say is don't be a sucker. Most people in left circles don't go around admitting their extremely small privilege and feeling bad about it unless it brings them social advantage. The people who worry about their privilege and admit it all over the place and feel honor-bound to remind everyone how easy they have it because they're trans but not the most marginalized trans person are being played, basically. We take blame and feel bad about ourselves and refuse opportunities and so one while everyone else understands that it's mostly a social game and doesn't let it change their lives in any way. This is what I've learned from many years in "privilege-checking" left circles.
Not that people should just trample others, etc, but this cult of apologizing because, for instance, you medically cannot be on hormones as if that makes you a spoiled person instead of bringing problems - that is so garbage activist culture.
Basically, once you get down to a really fine-grained individual level, privilege discourse starts to lose utility. Like, should a cis checkout clerk be reminding herself that she doesn't face the same struggles as Martine Rothblatt? That kind of moral calculus goes nowhere.
posted by Frowner at 6:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Spinifex23, you could be on hormones and the non-hormone-taking guys would be all "you have so much privilege because your gender is less ambiguous, also you get male privilege now". Have you gotten the line about how trans men and masculine spectrum people get all the dates and all the employment yet?
It's like, in social circles where everyone is, in fact, facing different kinds but approximately equal amounts of struggle (which is how these social settings usually go, IME) everyone is obsessed with pointing out how easy everyone else has it, what a piece of cake their lives are and how much harm they're doing just by existing as such spoiled babies. It's a way of asserting social status as much as anything else.
Again, one of the reasons I dropped out of a particular social circle was because of how all this "you are so privileged and bad" narrative was turned against an actually disabled trans woman and nothing anyone said (by which I mean nothing I said) made any difference.
What I'd say is don't be a sucker. Most people in left circles don't go around admitting their extremely small privilege and feeling bad about it unless it brings them social advantage. The people who worry about their privilege and admit it all over the place and feel honor-bound to remind everyone how easy they have it because they're trans but not the most marginalized trans person are being played, basically. We take blame and feel bad about ourselves and refuse opportunities and so one while everyone else understands that it's mostly a social game and doesn't let it change their lives in any way. This is what I've learned from many years in "privilege-checking" left circles.
Not that people should just trample others, etc, but this cult of apologizing because, for instance, you medically cannot be on hormones as if that makes you a spoiled person instead of bringing problems - that is so garbage activist culture.
Basically, once you get down to a really fine-grained individual level, privilege discourse starts to lose utility. Like, should a cis checkout clerk be reminding herself that she doesn't face the same struggles as Martine Rothblatt? That kind of moral calculus goes nowhere.
posted by Frowner at 6:11 AM on October 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
eh, I don't know if any of that was directed at me, but I mentioned in specific relation to spinifex's situation.
Have you gotten the line about how trans men and masculine spectrum people get all the dates
lol no. Being gay throws a huge wrench into that.
posted by AFABulous at 7:45 AM on October 2, 2016
Have you gotten the line about how trans men and masculine spectrum people get all the dates
lol no. Being gay throws a huge wrench into that.
posted by AFABulous at 7:45 AM on October 2, 2016
god bless you frowner
posted by beefetish at 11:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by beefetish at 11:57 AM on October 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
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I'm not sure why that is though: something to do with the historical overlap with slavery & therefore the intersection with racism making all talk of class especially difficult?
posted by pharm at 2:34 PM on September 28, 2016 [5 favorites]