My saying is: We win and lose together
October 11, 2016 2:02 PM   Subscribe

As we stand four weeks to election day, we know more about the candidates, and it's not good. Things have also recently not been great for Donald; following the taped revelations of last week, involving yet another (and now dismissed) member of the Bush dynasty, a fiery and ugly debate ensued (MetaFilter). Since then, he has marched increasingly alone; Paul Ryan has all but unendorsed him, John McCain has had enough, a lot of other Republicans are doing their own thing, and his friends are mainly the apologist Ben Carson, Rudy Giuliani, a 'coward' in Florida, and Wikileaks and dubious Russian information services (leading perhaps to a campaign event cancellation).

This is largely good news for Hillary, and some early voting signs are encouraging. Hillary and Al Gore appear to have made up and are campaigning in the battleground state of Florida, which also had voter registration extended. It's also looking cautiously good for Hillary in Ohio. So while the polls are looking promising, complacency remains the enemy.

What does all this mean? Nate and co. have Hillary at 79%, while the UK bookmakers have Hillary at around 1/6 and Donald at 4/1 (and Evan McMullin at between 500/1 and 1,000/1). Paddy Power is also offering 16/1 on Donald to win but resign due to impeachment. Elsewhere, some in China don't think the election looks great for democracy, while there is the continuing hubbub over whether the election could be hacked, possibly by Russia, or stolen.

Back to that debate; side distractions turned out to be some of the undecided voters in the panel, including a questioner, a man in a red sweater, and Paul.

Don't know what the JCPL is? Check out the wiki page for in-joke explanations and tips on managing long threads. If you need voter information, lampshade posted a collection of links (additionally, you can register at vote.gov). The MetaTalk election logistics discussion, and the FPP title is of course from Hamilton.
posted by Wordshore (3499 comments total) 113 users marked this as a favorite
 
THAT'S THE WRONG HAMILTON!
posted by zachlipton at 2:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


There is no wrong Hamilton.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


Thank you for the post, Wordshore! Nice roundup.
posted by stolyarova at 2:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Tag suggestion: most of the other threads also had a plain "election" tag
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


THAT'S THE WRONG HAMILTON!

"I never expect to see a perfect work from an imperfect man."
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


My wifi deciding to go on the blink this last hour meant this was not as comprehensive as it should have been; apologies. Most of the last paragraph is lifted from the last FPP by ChurchHatesTucker; thanks.
posted by Wordshore at 2:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Princeton Election Consortium today: Clinton Nov. win probability: random drift 95%, Bayesian 97%
posted by Dashy at 2:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


Amazing how Trump is being used as a pawn, and is being manipulated by Steve Bannon. It's like Trump is some golem controlled by Bannon.

Whose agenda is driving the events of the past few days (or basically ever since Manforte left the campaign)? And just how dumb are the people closest to Trump—the Trump children—not to realize this?

I guess Trump is a grifter after all, and one of the reasons he's just a grifter (who sells his name to schill buildings he does not own) is because he lacks the self-awareness and discipline to be a real billionaire.
posted by My Dad at 2:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]



I'm re-posting the John Noonan tweetstorm because it is so epic and should not be lost at the end of the last thread. Thanks to Talez for finding the storified version.

"Orange Samson" is my new favorite Trump nickname
posted by Jalliah at 2:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [53 favorites]


some in China don't think the election looks great for democracy

This isn't American democracy's finest hour for sure, but the argument for democracy was never that it was the most efficient or orderly system.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


If we do run out of Hamilton quotes (ANY Hamilton), we could segue to Emerson (Lake and Palmer): "Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends..."
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Looking into Downballot races today for my districts. and found ballotpedia.

It's a good resource to print out your sample ballot, and find out about not just politicians but also bonds issues coming up, etc.
posted by annsunny at 2:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Orange Samson" is my new favorite Trump nickname

After threatening to jail his political opponent, my new favorite is "Banana Republican"
posted by tclark at 2:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [174 favorites]


Princeton Election Consortium today: Clinton Nov. win probability: random drift 95%, Bayesian 97%

538 still has Trump with a 16% chance... which basically means this election is russian goddamned roulette.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [45 favorites]


One of the biggest lessons I took away from reading The Big Con years ago was the assertion that no one was more vulnerable to the grift than a grifter because they thought themselves too smart to get gamed and couldn't resist the easy money.
posted by drewbage1847 at 2:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


28 more days.
posted by gwint at 2:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


I am counting no chickens. October is the surprise month, and we still have another debate scheduled. Plus, even if one candidate is singularly unhinged, both are deeply unpopular.
posted by clever sheep at 2:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Also, Trump attacked Ryan and other top Republicans in a flurry of tweets today.

This is amazing. This could be the miracle needed to give the Democrats a shot at retaking the House, if Trump instructs or goads his supporters to not vote for any Republicans who turn against him.

Maybe the theory that Trump is an ultra-deep cover agent for Clinton/the Dems is true, and he's taking the entire Republican power structure down in one apocalyptic flame out.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]




~Princeton Election Consortium today: Clinton Nov. win probability: random drift 95%, Bayesian 97%

~538 still has Trump with a 16% chance... which basically means this election is russian goddamned roulette.


Hopefully, only figuratively.
Now, I'm being serious here...Has any legitimate polling/prediction org put out any numbers on the probability of widespread violence should Clinton win, given the...enthusiasm...of many Trump supporters?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:17 PM on October 11, 2016


"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends..."

"Come inside, come inside..."
posted by Flashman at 2:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Look on the bright side, Trump fans: I'm sure the very worst thing anyone has on the Donald got leaked more than a month before the election.

And I'm sure after 25 years of a political party maniacally focused on bringing down Clinton, someone has something new under the sun that will be unleashed on her in the weeks to come. The famously strategic and calculating Trump campaign is waiting for the exact right moment to open it up.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [94 favorites]


To be fair, it's been almost entirely good news for Clinton.

Given the amount of digging that's been done, nobody's really been able to find any dirt.

Liberals will need to hold Clinton accountable for some of her centrist tendencies if she's elected, but the election cycle seems to be proving that she can be swayed on most of those issues in the presence of good evidence.

It's also proving that it's surprisingly difficult to buy her influence.
posted by schmod at 2:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [48 favorites]


Maybe the theory that Trump is ultra-deep cover agent for Clinton/the Dems is true, and he's taking the entire Republican power structure down in one apocalyptic flame out.

While this is in no way plausible, how much would you have to pay him to do something like that? Or is it make sure his massive, massive debt is forgiven?
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:19 PM on October 11, 2016


I'm really hoping and expecting that some deeper investigative journalism will come out this week that is based on the leaked 1995 tax return information. The last thread had a link to a post noting other organizations who reported paying Trump in 1995 -- that he should have declared receiving far more than $6k in income. Warren Buffett also brought up the idea of allowable charitable contribution limits.

The "national conversations" we're having on sexism and locker rooms are important reasons for Trump to be defeated. The child-rape trial has to be a primary importance to prosecute, but it's probably not the only trial Trump will face next year.

I hope it's the tax fraud that takes him down in the next four weeks, because the notion that he's a "successful businessman" is the only premise he had for running.
posted by Dashy at 2:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


While this is in no way plausible, how much would you have to pay him to do something like that?

He's paid in the only coin he cares about: attention.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]




Maybe the theory that Trump is ultra-deep cover agent for Clinton/the Dems is true


I agree that this is totally implausible, but this would make me furious. It's the one thing that would make me sit out/vote for Jill Stein.
posted by zutalors! at 2:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]




Amazing how Trump is being used as a pawn, and is being manipulated by Steve Bannon. It's like Trump is some golem controlled by Bannon.

And his running mate is Race Bannon! Holy shit!
posted by GuyZero at 2:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


Has any legitimate polling/prediction org put out any numbers on the probability of widespread violence should Clinton win

i predict millions and millions of crushed coors light cans on nov 8
posted by pyramid termite at 2:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


While this is in no way plausible, how much would you have to pay him to do something like that? Or is it make sure his massive, massive debt is forgiven?

Remember that Trump got called an unwitting agent of the Russians a while back. I'm sure the Clintons are pretty good at flattering his ego.

And I'm not sure how far on the ropes I want him right now. Enough that he has time to start burning the GOP to the ground while not actually being completely gone.
posted by Francis at 2:22 PM on October 11, 2016


[RYAN]
This race is hard enough
Without infighting—

[TRUMP]
McCain called me out. We called his bluff

[RYAN]
You solve nothing, you aggravate our allies in this ENTIRE COUNTRY.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


As some others have pointed out, if he was a Clinton plant, he probably wouldn't be talking up electoral fraud if he loses.
posted by ckape at 2:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


1483 days until the 2020 election.
posted by FallowKing at 2:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [44 favorites]


What's the over/under on Trump just spending Nov 9 - Jan 20 acting like he won
posted by beerperson at 2:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [49 favorites]


And voted, thanks to my home state basically having an election month.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


Has any legitimate polling/prediction org put out any numbers on the probability of widespread violence should Clinton win, given the...enthusiasm...of many Trump supporters?

Honestly I think it would be irresponsible for the press to even speculate about that, because it would encourage it or normalize the possibility. Hopefully the Obama administration and various local policeries and state National Guard units are coordinating in order to be prepared for anything.
posted by msalt at 2:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Given the amount of digging that's been done, nobody's really been able to find any dirt.

I heard her risotto is sub-par
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [140 favorites]


I'm feeling pretty good about my prediction from June:
Clinton and Trump have both been public figures since the '80s and one of the reasons they have high disapproval ratings is that they have well-defined personas. My theory is that as the election goes on and people take a closer look at them and think of either of them becoming president, they'll like Clinton more and they'll like Trump less. She's not very good at speeches, but she can be charming in smaller settings. He's going from being seen as a cartoonish blowhard to a dangerous lunatic.

If she can keep her cool during the debates like she did at the Benghazi hearing and can provoke him into blowing his top it would be a defining moment in the election. If I were on her staff I'd time some provocative shot at him the day of the first debate that she can casually allude to during the debate.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [83 favorites]


Hopefully, only figuratively.
Now, I'm being serious here...Has any legitimate polling/prediction org put out any numbers on the probability of widespread violence should Clinton win?


I really don't think you can poll for this. I do think there is a good chance that somebody, somewhere will do something but if you ask you're going to get way more people that will say and not do.

In my experience, and I've had some in a couple of drawn out conflict situations with the type of people who hold some of these more aggressive beliefs they bluster more then they do. The bluster can be very, very scary and but they don't end up doing it.

For example, big call across the country for white nationalist to descend and fight, lots of chatter, threats of bombing, fires, rocks and bottles all sorts of crap if the police didn't go in an arrest all the damn Indians. Protest day was X. On the boards lots of people said they were coming. The cops were preparing for a huge crowd and called in extra help. Literally 10 people showed up and all they did was be angry and yell.
posted by Jalliah at 2:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


Samantha Bee making my day a little better

Samantha Bee was so on fire with talking points about rape culture that I've really only heard on Metafilter and occasionally from more thoughtful Facebook friends. I was really excited to hear her addressing this stuff on television. I also found myself wondering if she's on here, and if so, what her user name might be.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]




538 still has Trump with a 16% chance... which basically means this election is russian goddamned roulette.

I saw The Deer Hunter. Even if you don't die, you end up coming away with scars.

---

Also, that tweetstorm by John Noonan:

31. Trump made the decision to be a bad candidate and a bad person. Not other Republicans, many of whom backed him out of party loyalty.

32. You should be on the ground thanking the RNC and other Republicans who held their tongue and backed this lunatic out of devotion to GOP


This section is particularly rich, given that he just lectured about personal responsibility, and the way he phrases this is trying to give other Republicans an out. It was loyalty, they'll cry, using it as a shield to avoid personal responsibility.

They made the decision to support a bad candidate and a bad person. Nobody else's.
posted by qcubed at 2:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


It was a dumb joke y'all. Of course Trump is his own jackass.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:27 PM on October 11, 2016




1483 days until the 2020 election.

ಠ_ಠ
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [67 favorites]


nobody's really been able to find any dirt.

Today in misleading headlines, this was linked on Google News under the title "Podesta says Clinton 'begun to hate everyday Americans'," so.
posted by psoas at 2:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I agree that this is totally implausible, but this would make me furious. It's the one thing that would make me sit out/vote for Jill Stein.

I'd be furious if Clinton blew up my dog with explosives, and then played bagpipes at its funeral. I grant you it's implausible, particularly as my dog's been dead for years, but I would definitely not forgive her if she did it.
posted by howfar at 2:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [56 favorites]


What's the over/under on Trump just spending Nov 9 - Jan 20 acting like he won

That's exactly his plan. And unfortunately, it's deadly serious. He and his followers will not accept any reality but one in which he is victorious, which means that anyone who says otherwise, be they news companies or government organizations, will be seen as in on the conspiracy, and therefore traitors to the country.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


In the face of an abusive, misogynistic, bigoted, scary, lawless authoritarian, what’s a little journalistic fraud or constant fearmongering about subversive Kremlin agents between friends if it helps to stop him?

I agree with Greenwald here in this case (Kremlin links to hacking are wildly overstated), but he has shown himself to be completely lacking in a moral compass. Another iconic figure of our wretched age.
posted by My Dad at 2:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump: I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream. That's my nightmare: crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor and surviving.

[fake]
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


Sent in my ballot. Avoided the temptation of scrawling "THIS MACHINE KILLS FASCISTS" on the envelope.
posted by whuppy at 2:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [95 favorites]


2020? Focus on 2018. We have a lot to lose that year. Even if we get the Senate back this year we'll lose it in 2018 without a ground game.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [69 favorites]


I agree with Greenwald here in this case (Kremlin links to hacking are wildly overstated)

I'm curious, what leads you to that opinion?
posted by msalt at 2:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]




I am so sick of this shit. Today I got accused of being a blindly unreasonable Hillary fan for arguing with someone who literally said she is not even human. Where did all these stupid blockheads come from? And can they get the fuck back there already?
posted by the agents of KAOS at 2:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [55 favorites]


In the face of an abusive, misogynistic, bigoted, scary, lawless authoritarian, what’s a little journalistic fraud or constant fearmongering about subversive Kremlin agents between friends if it helps to stop him?

there's a strain of "stop being mean to Russia about the stuff they're actually doing, OMG this isn't the Cold War" thought that keeps popping up around here that I find genuinely baffling
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [54 favorites]


I agree with Greenwald here in this case (Kremlin links to hacking are wildly overstated), but he has shown himself to be completely lacking in a moral compass.

Hmm. Care to elaborate?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 2:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


"stop being mean to Russia about the stuff they're actually doing, OMG this isn't the Cold War"

Clinton wants more action in Syria, directly scrapping with Russia. You'll get plenty of that next year I think.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Woman: “If Hillary Clinton gets in...I’m ready for a revolution, b/c we can’t have her in”
Pence: “Don’t say that”


Scary. Maybe Pence will actually be helpful and have a few McCain-esque "No, no, ma'am, Obama's not a Muslim" type moments? Also she looks like she is literally wearing a foil hat.
posted by AndrewInDC at 2:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


Who has no moral compass? Greenwald?
posted by dilaudid at 2:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Elle: Meet the High School Senior Who Wore a "Grab My Pussy" Shirt To a Trump Rally

She wore the homemade shirt "Grab my pussy, I dare you" along with two friends who wore homemade Black Lives Matter shirts.
"I felt disillusioned then with the opinions of [Trump] and any woman who supports him," Lehane tells ELLE.com over the phone, "You can't control how I vote by grabbing my whatever. The fact that I'm a woman doesn't mean that I'm easily influenced or controllable or someone who shouldn't be taken seriously."

Despite a history of Trump supporters being violent toward protestors, Lehane says danger "didn't cross my mind. It probably should've," she adds, explaining she felt safer with company and "wouldn't have been able to do it without friends." While she wasn't physically harmed while staying through the rally's entirety, Lehane reports "there were a lot of weird comments by creepy old men. One man, he looked to be my grandfather['s age], honestly, he said 'I always like a good dare.'"

Along with her shirt, Lehane wore a Bernie Sanders pin. "Hillary Clinton wasn't my first choice, but she stands for women and I stand for women," she says, "And Bernie Sanders supports Hillary now–I'm not just basing my opinions on him, but I think Hillary is definitely the better choice for the President of the United States."
posted by zachlipton at 2:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [121 favorites]


Maybe Pence will actually be helpful and have a few McCain-esque "No, no, ma'am, Obama's not a Muslim" type moments?

smash cut to Pence tied to the front of the battering ram, the word "CUCK" scrawled across his face in red paint
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [32 favorites]


Oh, fucking hell, Greenwald:
There is zero suggestion in the article, let alone evidence, that any WikiLeaks email was doctored: It wasn’t. It was just Sputnik misreporting the email.
"Misreporting."
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


Elle: Meet the High School Senior Who Wore a "Grab My Pussy" Shirt To a Trump Rally

I don't find the term "alpha" very illuminating, but for those who do, this is what a fucking alpha looks like
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [70 favorites]


> Woman: “If Hillary Clinton gets in...I’m ready for a revolution, b/c we can’t have her in”

Trump's Promise to Jail Clinton Is a Threat to American Democracy
... The smooth functioning of American democracy rests on the acceptance of established norms. When they are violated, whether deliberately or out of careless disregard, the results can be catastrophic—and sometimes, bloody.

This is not a nation immune from political violence. To the contrary. Its political history is sanguinary. To the extent that elections today are peaceful and orderly, it is because earlier generations witnessed the alternatives, and fought hard to secure the legitimacy of the democratic process, and to contain political conflicts so that they would not expand to become violent conflicts.

Whichever party loses in November will need to find a way to accept the results, even if its members have convinced themselves during the heat of the campaign that the election of their opponent portends the dissolution of the Republic. And the members of whichever party prevails will need to resist the impulse to avenge themselves for the attacks they’ve endured, the outrages they’ve suffered over the course of a long and bruising campaign.

On Sunday night, Donald Trump showed again that he has failed to grasp this essential lesson. He’s running out of time to learn it.
posted by homunculus at 2:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


[A few comments deleted. We have a Brexit thread if you want to talk about that, and please don't call each other names.]
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Whenever anyone uses the word "alpha", this pops into my head.
posted by pxe2000 at 2:40 PM on October 11, 2016


PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: In the last thread, we continued to have problems with people misinterpreting fake / satirical stories as real, and even some cases where real stories were written off as satire. In these challenging times, where what's real is difficult to believe and what would have been impossible to believe just weeks ago is now baked into our expectations of what the next story will be, please make use of [real] and [fake] tags to avoid long and unproductive derails and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our MetaFilter.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:40 PM on October 11, 2016 [127 favorites]


Considering what Greenwald went through with Snowden I can't blame him for not liking the U.S. government very much. His article isn't wrong, and I had to eat a lot of crow while reading it because I retweeted the heck out of Eichenwald last night.
posted by stolyarova at 2:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


This could be the miracle needed to give the Democrats a shot at retaking the House

Honestly, I get why that would be exciting, but I honestly think even if you lean Democratic, the nation on the whole would be better served with the Ryans of the Republican side in charge, rather than a Trump-dominated minority party. Trump's civil war against the 'compromising' Republicans is not good. There are a lot of ways even a minority could make previous obstructionism seem like a cakewalk.
posted by corb at 2:41 PM on October 11, 2016


After threatening to jail his political opponent, my new favorite is "Banana Republican".

With Trump's talk about "the shackles" being taken off, I'm going with "Mango Unchained."
posted by tonycpsu at 2:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [172 favorites]


There are a lot of ways even a minority could make previous obstructionism seem like a cakewalk.

You can't divide by zero.
posted by Mooski at 2:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


In the face of an abusive, misogynistic, bigoted, scary, lawless authoritarian, what’s a little journalistic fraud or constant fearmongering about subversive Kremlin agents between friends if it helps to stop him?

The thing is, multiple private companies and several government agencies have confirmed Russia's involvement in the DNC hacks. Obama took the extraordinary step of formally accusing Russia of it.*

So while not everything is automatically Russia's fault, and Trump isn't some Russian agent, it's not crazy to believe Russia is meddling in this election because Russia has already been shown to be meddling in this election.

*Though perhaps that too was a massive fraud perpetrated by a conspiracy of the entire media, the government, and private security firms.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [35 favorites]


>some cases where real stories were written off as satire.

We exist in a timeline where Donald Trump is a credible Presidential candidate. RIP SATIRE ?--2016
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


the nation on the whole would be better served with the Ryans of the Republican side in charge, rather than a Trump-dominated minority party

Who said there were only those two choices on the menu? Purge the party of the Ryans and the Trumps. Better yet, have Ana Navarro start her own party and leave the GOP to the dustbin of history.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [35 favorites]


Scott Baio Defends Trump’s Sexism With More Sexism

Remember that episode of "Joanie loves Chachi" when Joanie overhears Chachi talk to his friends about sexualy assaulting women, then confronts him about it and then he tells her shut fat, stupid mouth and get used to it because that's how men talk? Heartwarming.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 2:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


With Trump's talk about "the shackles" being taken off, I'mm'a go with "Mango Unchained."

I'm laughing so hard that I can barely type or breathe. That was the straw that released some tension relieving laughter. Thank you.
posted by Jalliah at 2:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump has repeatedly burned things down rather than taking a survivable loss by admitting he made a mistake (see: casino bankruptcy in particular). If you want to know whether he would do that to the country, just look what he's doing now to the Republican party and ask if you want to see that scale.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


Corb , do you think they will have an incentive to remain trumpy if he loses the election?
posted by Tarumba at 2:44 PM on October 11, 2016


RIP SATIRE ?--2016

p. sure satire began in 1998
posted by beerperson at 2:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Are there any good maps of what's going on in the House elections?
posted by annsunny at 2:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


28 more days.

28 days. Heh.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


After threatening to jail his political opponent, my new favorite is "Banana Republican".

A Banana power grab
?
posted by AndrewInDC at 2:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


The way things are going, the post-election TV movie of the Trump presidential run is going to be the Apocalypse Now to Bill Clinton's The War Room by the end:

@realDonaldTrump: Did they say why, Ryan, why they want to terminate my campaign?

@SpeakerRyan: I was sent on a classified mission, sir.

@realDonaldTrump: It's no longer classified, is it? Did they tell you?

@SpeakerRyan: They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound.

@realDonaldTrump: Are my methods unsound?

@SpeakerRyan: I don't see any method at all, sir.

@realDonaldTrump: I expected someone like you. What did you expect? Are you an assassin?

@SpeakerRyan: I'm a the Speaker of the House of Representatives.

@realDonaldTrump: You're neither. You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [68 favorites]


Am I right in thinking that one of the many things that has allowed Trump to rise is gerrymandering? To whit, once you've made districts "safe" for Republicans by minimizing the threat from the left, the threats start to come from the right and things inevitably start changing in that direction. Both parties, long term, would seem to benefit from being in more direct, regular conflict. Yes, less "safe" seats, but what good is having a safe seat if the person sitting in it is worse than your opponent would be?
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [76 favorites]


Honestly, I get why that would be exciting, but I honestly think even if you lean Democratic, the nation on the whole would be better served with the Ryans of the Republican side in charge, rather than a Trump-dominated minority party. Trump's civil war against the 'compromising' Republicans is not good. There are a lot of ways even a minority could make previous obstructionism seem like a cakewalk.

No, sorry. I know you are a Republican and you're a fine person, but the Republican Party is repulsive, and has shown itself to be nothing but for years. Trump didn't start that. He's a symptom, not a disease. Republicans were against the 'compromising' Republicans for decades before him. They built a giant media echo chamber to amplify and reinforce that. They slaughter their own who dare to even try, culminating in the idiot shrieking rage of the Tea Party.

No, the time for that shit is over. If the Dems take power they need to give the Republicans a taste of their own medicine. The Republicans have shown over and over that they despise the very concept of trying to work with the Democrats, and spurn any and all attempts at such. Stomp them into the dirt and stomp the dirt down. Let the minority Republicans try to stop them.
posted by Sangermaine at 2:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [166 favorites]


Corb , do you think they will have an incentive to remain trumpy if he loses the election?

IANAC but the Trumpists don't give a shit about the establishment or the institution. The Republican Party is merely a means to an end. It'll be whoever shouts loudest during the primaries.
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am so sick of this shit. Today I got accused of being a blindly unreasonable Hillary fan for arguing with someone who literally said she is not even human. Where did all these stupid blockheads come from? And can they get the fuck back there already?

Paraphrased conversation I've had:

Friend: "Hillary is a straw feminist."

Me: *examples of Hillary's feminist stances and actions*

Friend: "Okay, so she's a half straw feminist."

Me: *drinks a Shiner Bock*
posted by Groundhog Week at 2:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


I appreciate everyone who is still doing [real] and [fake] tags! There's too much crazy stuff to parse.
posted by isthmus at 2:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


Huh, I feel like this was the only chance the deplorable voters had, after this they will always be a minority, so their elected downballot people have an incentive to work with the other Republicans
posted by Tarumba at 2:49 PM on October 11, 2016


Who said there were only those two choices on the menu? Purge the party of the Ryans and the Trumps. Better yet, have Ana Navarro start her own party and leave the GOP to the dustbin of history.

It's total baseball, but I'm actually looking forward to seeing what the upcoming Hispanic Republican leader get-together is going to come up with. I heart Ana Navarro forever for a lot of reasons, and if she comes up with a solid plan I will definitely follow where she leads, but I don't know if she and hers have enough of a wing to actually move the whole party.
posted by corb at 2:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Friend: "Hillary is a straw feminist."

I wish.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


A friend, on reading the Noonan Tweetstorm: "I'm sure Dr. Frankenstein was pissed when his monster went on a rampage, too."
posted by dilettante at 2:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [45 favorites]


Woman: “If Hillary Clinton gets in...I’m ready for a revolution, b/c we can’t have her in”

Pence: “Don’t say that”


Listen to the rest of that portion though. Pence goes on to say he's worried about voter fraud and encourages that woman to get involved and be a poll watcher, because he's worried about "one person one vote".

So Pence basically hears this woman talking about committing violence around presumably people who don't look like her voting, and directs her to be at the polls on election day.
posted by cashman at 2:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [104 favorites]


the nation on the whole would be better served with the Ryans of the Republican side in charge, rather than a Trump-dominated minority party

The nation on a whole would be better with a Democratic majority, full stop. The Ryan House has been just as awful as Trump has, and having someone who played his lapdog in charge of anything should be a huge red flag. And Ryan himself has a lot of dangerous, harmful, bigoted ideas, so...nope.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [70 favorites]


Honestly, I get why that would be exciting, but I honestly think even if you lean Democratic, the nation on the whole would be better served with the Ryans of the Republican side in charge, rather than a Trump-dominated minority party. Trump's civil war against the 'compromising' Republicans is not good. There are a lot of ways even a minority could make previous obstructionism seem like a cakewalk.

I get your point: Ryan is apparently less crazy and turning the minority over to folks to the right of Breitbart would be destructive. But Ryan is darn dangerous. He wants to dismantle Social Security and block grant Medicare so GOP-led state legislatures can destroy it. Ryan doesn't talk like Trump, but some of his budget proposals are far more extreme than Trump when it comes to abdicating any responsibility to take care of the people in our society who need help. The Ryan budget more or less gradually eliminates virtually all discretionary spending except for the military, which he wants to fund more.

In some ways, Ryan scares me more, because the Trumpists announce themselves oh so loudly, while Ryan looks like a reasonable human being as he hides behind numbers and policy proposals nobody bothers to read.
posted by zachlipton at 2:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [108 favorites]


annsunny - This is a decent interactive on house races.
posted by msbutah at 2:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


So Pence basically hears this woman talking about committing violence around presumably people who don't look like her voting, and directs her to be at the polls on election day.

YES, THIS. Anyone going on about the dangers of the voter fraud Pence is talking about is on the same level as him and Trump. He's merely redirecting her violent anger at voters rather than politicians.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [45 favorites]


A friend, on reading the Noonan Tweetstorm: "I'm sure Dr. Frankenstein was pissed when his monster went on a rampage, too."

He was pissed but he didn't do much about it -- he fucking just took off at first, didn't he? That sounds familiar.
posted by theredpen at 2:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


I honestly think even if you lean Democratic, the nation on the whole would be better served with the Ryans of the Republican side in charge, rather than a Trump-dominated minority party.

Fuck that.
On the night of Barack Obama’s inauguration, a group of top GOP luminaries quietly gathered in a Washington steakhouse to lick their wounds and ultimately create the outline of a plan for how to deal with the incoming administration.
...
Among them were Senate power brokers Jim DeMint, Jon Kyl and Tom Coburn, and conservative congressmen Eric Cantor, Kevin McCarthy and Paul Ryan.

After three hours of strategizing, they decided they needed to fight Obama on everything. The new president had no idea what the Republicans were planning.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [176 favorites]


Doktor Zed,

I'm with you on this.
posted by Cookiebastard at 2:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'd like to see total numbers of favorites given compared to when the election threads come up. I know what that chart would look like, but I'm curious as to the magnitude.
posted by neonrev at 2:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]




>>I agree with Greenwald here in this case (Kremlin links to hacking are wildly overstated)

I'm curious, what leads you to that opinion?


I work for a media organization that covers many regions, including Russia and the countries known as "the former Soviet republics." So, from my perspective, and from the information that I consume, the connection between Trump and Putin, and between the Kremlin and various hacks, is wildly overstated. I wish I could provide a number of detailed citations, but here's a good place to start.
posted by My Dad at 2:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


New polling from Reuters. Clinton up by 8 nationally; Republican men still horrible.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


No Social Security, what does that mean? To my grandmother it meant that after raising 10 children on a farm in Alabama, she became a cafeteria lunchroom lady, until she was too weak to do that, and as a widow, spent her last days on her grand daughter's couch. Little security except for family, freedom to work until death, for minimum wages. So anyone who threatens that is my enemy.
posted by Oyéah at 2:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [144 favorites]


Greenwald's failure to call out and straight-out discredit Sputnik as a propaganda organ, on the other hand, is an example of his profound moral and intellectual bankruptcy. Greenwald doesn't care about democracy, and he certainly does not care about accuracy in reporting. He's just a pundit now.
posted by My Dad at 2:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


What I have learned thus far
1. Hillary sure to win
2. Kelleyanne, the Trump guide to victory, also dumb and has put her career in peril because she fronts for loser.
3. Trump able to avoid taxes for 20 years and what he has done perfectly legal!
4. GOP in free fall but will be united in their hatred of a woman president. The Know Nothings will re-engage with the Do Nothings.
5. Pence will be doing battle with Rubio in the next election cycle while Cruz wonders why he still has no friends.
6. With the increasing use of early voting, who needs 3 debates stretched out over so long a time.
7. Someone may suggest a mic switch to cut off debaters from going over allotted time.
8. We will soon be humming "Happy Days Are Here Again" till things get underway in Congress and then we will wonder why all seems just like it has been.
9. Christie will ask Trump if he can have a job at new hotel in D.C., perhaps the maitre de position in the restaurant. Rudy will be head of security at a Trump casino till the casino goes belly up
posted by Postroad at 2:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


It's total baseball, but I'm actually looking forward to seeing what the upcoming Hispanic Republican leader get-together is going to come up with. I heart Ana Navarro forever for a lot of reasons, and if she comes up with a solid plan I will definitely follow where she leads, but I don't know if she and hers have enough of a wing to actually move the whole party.

I still don't get why the two of you still identify as R. Like you do more community involvement than almost anyone in your community. You obviously care about people dearly. What do you still identify with? Just a general dislike of big govt + continued legal access to firearms?
posted by Talez at 2:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]




I wish I could provide a number of detailed citations, but here's a good place to start.

mkay

Would Putin enjoy a Trump presidency? Almost certainly. Is he using what means he has at his disposal to bring that about? Quite probably. [...] This focus on Russian ‘active measures’ – on the hacking of Democratic Party computers and the subsequent leaks, or on the ties between Manafort and Deripaska, for example – is the most pernicious of red herrings. It allows us to believe that America is in a battle with a foreign adversary, and thus to avoid the conversation we need to be having with ourselves. The threat to America, my friends, is domestic.

this is less of a refutation than an "I prioritize my worries differently" statement
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


Considering what Greenwald went through with Snowden I can't blame him for not liking the U.S. government very much. His article isn't wrong, and I had to eat a lot of crow while reading it because I retweeted the heck out of Eichenwald last night.

Thank-you 1,000x for your intellectual honesty.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 3:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


This is a matter of no importance, but after reading some of the comments from the right criticizing Clinton for liking Beyonce, I went and paid to download Lemonade because nobody disses Queen Bey.

(I'd listened to it on YouTube previously)
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Linking that Mike Cernovich GOP civil war threat (or whatever to call it) linked at the end of the previous thread: note at the bottom he calls it #OperationPurgeCucks.

I would be fascinated by this fixation the alt-righters and the Trumpster fires have on the term "cuck," but I got my writing start on Literotica and I'm way too familiar with how that plays out on such sites. Guys routinely go to stories that are very clearly going to be about wives sleeping with men other than their spouses, be it adultery or open relationships or whatever. Invariably, no matter how this fictional plot plays out, these dudes leave horrid, angry, hateful comments. And again, they knew damn well what they were going to read. It's right there on the label.

There's a lot to unpack with this stuff about men seeing women as possessions (and adultery being a loss of control), and a lot of times race plays into it in ugly ways. But when you consider how these dudes keep coming back for more, knowing full well it's just going to drive them up the wall, the whole phenomenon screams of projection and self-loathing.

Every time I see "cuck" used in allegedly conservative circles, I have to wonder about the possible crossover. Like I don't think they specifically go to Lit and so what if they do, but to fling around a term like that? The first thing I think when I see people use "cuck" as an insult is "Wow, you're just gonna let the self-loathing rage and insecurity fly like a flag, huh?"
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [80 favorites]


the connection between Trump and Putin, and between the Kremlin and various hacks, is wildly overstated.

I don't think Trump is actively a knowing plant (though inserting plants into other governments is a thing Putin has done), but I don't think it's at all unreasonable to suggest that Trump & co are both dumb and power-hungry enough to follow whatever threads they find that might make them 'win' and ignore totally the source of those threads. We know for certain that Trump has repeatedly used material cribbed from Kremlin mouthpieces, and has done so literally hours after the material was posted. He has literal Putin operatives who helped destroy and destabilize an entire nation working for him. He's encouraged the idea that Russia is behind the hacks and that they should continue. He doesn't need to knowingly follow orders from Putin if he's dumb enough to trust him on spec.
posted by neonrev at 3:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


Ryan doesn't talk like Trump, but some of his budget proposals are far more extreme than Trump

I think what I'm trying to say is that regardless of his policies specifically, even with the obstructionism we've seen - which I must admit has reached insane levels, remember we are still down a Supreme Court Justice - a lot of what happens in Congress and the Senate relies on sort of a collective agreement not to be break the wheels of government completely. They obstruct on some things - which is wrong in the way they do it - largely signature Democratic achievements, but they haven't simply stopped passing any bills whatsoever, for example. There have been bipartisan bills that have gotten through. Government shutdowns exist, but have been mercifully short.

There have been some Tea Party Republicans elected to Congress, but never a cohesive group of them with a cohesive leader determined to actually burn things down. They at least have a veneer of civility. I don't think we've seen even a fraction of what an active rebellion of government-burning, minority-hating revolutionists could accomplish.
posted by corb at 3:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


TRUMP: Every rally is so great. So great. I feel like I'm winning more than ever. How can I win so much we'll be sick of winning?
CONWAY: Mr. Trump, yes, you're always a winner, sir, but I feel like you might need to follow up on the outreach to women like we disc- ...
BANNON: DESTROY THE GOP!
TRUMP: Of all the Steves, you're my favorite. Where's my tweetphone?
CONWAY: ...
TRUMP: Kellyanne, you know what your problem is? You aren't named Steve. Work on that.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


2. Kelleyanne, the Trump guide to victory, also dumb and has put her career in peril because she fronts for loser.

Not at all. I think at this point she knows Trump will lose or at least expects him to, but knows that being anti-Hillary is going to be a growth industry if she becomes President. Conway, having gone to the mat for Trump against Hillary, will be in a great position to sign on with whatever faction of the GOP comes out ahead once the dust settles. Backing any one specific faction is a sucker's bet -- she was anti-Hillary before Trump, and she's cementing her brand as the all-purpose anti-Hillary hack now.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


It seems from the last debate that Trump has a very weird view of how government works.

He seems to always say that only he can fix things. Him alone.

He accused Clinton of being a failure as a senator because SHE didn't get anything done. He is clearly assuming that an individual in government can do what they want and can make what they want to happen. Which is how he presents himself as president. HE can and will do what he wants. Him alone.

Is he really that clueless about how government works? Is his narcissism so entrenched that he projects it on to everyone around him? He's the winner, everyone else are losers? The man clearly is insane.

This view also explains his claim that the system is rigged. If you can always do what you want, how do you explain being unable to do something? It's because the system stops you. It's rigged. It's not your fault that you failed. The system is at fault. It's psychopathology everywhere you look.
posted by njohnson23 at 3:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [75 favorites]


Now, I'm being serious here...Has any legitimate polling/prediction org put out any numbers on the probability of widespread violence should Clinton win, given the...enthusiasm...of many Trump supporters?

The polling firm of Pater Aletheias, His Family, And Random People Nearby put the odds at 99.5%.

Honestly, it scares me. It is very easy to see Trump refusing to concede and saying the election was stolen. He's already said that's the only way he will lose. His followers don't trust the polls and they believe in rampant voter fraud, so there's no reason for them not to trust him. If he doesn't do an incredibly out-of-character public concession and pledge to support Clinton, there will be violence. Some skinheads are going to attack minorities on election night when the networks start calling it for Hillary. I don't see how that won't happen. How can it not, given the campaign he is running?
posted by Pater Aletheias at 3:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


I don't think we've seen even a fraction of what an active rebellion of government-burning, minority-hating revolutionists could accomplish.

As long as they are themselves a minority in the House, it doesn't matter.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Trump does a lot of business with Russians, by his own admission. By his own admission he tried to coax Putin out for a business/social meeting, and it was a no go. So, Trump is still working on his business relationship with Russia, with Putin, because in his narcissistic way that was a snub, and he is needy for attention. Yes, I think he is just that pathetic. He has worked this for a long time with his marriages, and his businesses. This election is about business. He is setting up for his new life.
posted by Oyéah at 3:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]




we are still down a Supreme Court Justice - a lot of what happens in Congress and the Senate relies on sort of a collective agreement not to be break the wheels of government completely.

lol
posted by beerperson at 3:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


A friend, on reading the Noonan Tweetstorm: "I'm sure Dr. Frankenstein was pissed when his monster went on a rampage, too."

He was pissed but he didn't do much about it -- he fucking just took off at first, didn't he? That sounds familiar.


Well, he did a lot of weeping and passing out, and then he ripped a women that he had built for his creation into shreds, so . . . yeah, still works. And perhaps we'll end up with Trump drifting away forever on an ice floe.
posted by bibliowench at 3:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


His new life as an international business and disinformation magnate.
posted by Oyéah at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2016


THAT'S THE WRONG HAMILTON!

Nope; I indelibly associate Lewis Hamilton with US elections (as well as with being a damned good driver). In 2008 he won his first championship with some deft overtaking in the last minute of the last race. I was presenting at a video games and librarians conference (yes, those are a thing) in Chicago at the time. Much yelling ensued as I followed the race, partially due to a hefty bet running on this season. At the end of the conference, the winnings paid for four of us who had attended to somehow procure a taxi and go to a rather busy park downtown as something was happening that evening...
posted by Wordshore at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


a lot of what happens in Congress and the Senate relies on sort of a collective agreement not to be break the wheels of government completely. They obstruct on some things - which is wrong in the way they do it - largely signature Democratic achievements, but they haven't simply stopped passing any bills whatsoever, for example.

I'd like to know how responding to the Zika crisis, 9-11 first responder health care, infrastructure repair funding, VA reform and many more pure 'national good' bills that have been shut down were 'signature Democratic achievements', and not obviously bi-partisan bills that were shut down because the GOP would hate to let a black man do any obvious good for anyone.

There have been some Tea Party Republicans elected to Congress, but never a cohesive group of them with a cohesive leader determined to actually burn things down. They at least have a veneer of civility. I don't think we've seen even a fraction of what an active rebellion of government-burning, minority-hating revolutionists could accomplish.

I don't negotiate with terrorists, and neither should you. Ryan would take the votes of those traitors to the nation gladly, and in fact panders to them. He's a more subtle wanna-be dictator than some we've seen recently, that's all.
posted by neonrev at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [94 favorites]


A friend, on reading the Noonan Tweetstorm: "I'm sure Dr. Frankenstein was pissed when his monster went on a rampage, too."

He was pissed but he didn't do much about it -- he fucking just took off at first, didn't he?


As opposed to Dr. Frank-N-Furter, who just took off fucking!
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


Talk of election night violence is rendered even more frightening by virtue of the nation's largest police union endorsing Trump. How many police officers will be among those who believe the election was rigged? How much effort would they put into protecting those voters and communities most at-risk of post-election violence, especially when they sympathize with the position of the attackers?
posted by palindromic at 3:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [71 favorites]


Also re: Ryan, the man has sided with Donald Trump. He shouldn't be entrusted with safety scissors, let alone being third in line of succession. There's no reason at all to believe (and every reason to believe otherwise) that he would be some sort of sane guy that suddenly gets a case of the bipartisan vibrations. That's not who he was before Trump ran, and it's certainly not who he is now.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [43 favorites]


I think what I'm trying to say is that regardless of his policies specifically, even with the obstructionism we've seen...a lot of what happens in Congress and the Senate relies on sort of a collective agreement not to be break the wheels of government completely. They obstruct on...largely signature Democratic achievements, but they haven't simply stopped passing any bills whatsoever, for example. There have been bipartisan bills that have gotten through. Government shutdowns exist, but have been mercifully short.

I do hear where you're coming from, and if we were talking about who was in charge in different Republican majorities I could see a way to agreement, but the scenario you outlined earlier was a Ryan-led Republican majority versus a non-Ryan Republican minority -- specifically, that 'even if you lean Democratic, the nation on the whole would be better served with the Ryans of the Republican side in charge, rather than a Trump-dominated minority party...There are a lot of ways even a minority could make previous obstructionism seem like a cakewalk.'

That's simply absurd -- there's no possible way that a Republican minority is going to cause more obstruction than a Republican majority, period. An angry minority party will never muster a majority of votes; that's just math. The Ryan bloc shut down the government. The obstruction is already here. 'Mercifully short' is, really, 'agonizing long,' and is exactly the sort of governmental malfeasance that Ryan purports to be against but has supported in practice.

An angry and fractured minority Republican party might finally abandon the Hastert rule and embrace a degree of bipartisanship to save itself from its angrier side.
posted by cjelli at 3:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


Before Ryan gave in and took the job, I remember pundits were pointing out that technically the Speaker of the House didn't even have to be a member of Congress, so clearly the Democrats need to win the House so we can avoid Speaker Trump.
posted by ckape at 3:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The big question to me isn't so much how much of each GOP faction gets elected, or even how much daylight there really is between the racism-enabling policies of the Tea Party and the explicitly racist messaging of the alt-right. What really matters is how much institutional support the entire, uh, knapsack of undesirables gets from the GOP establishment. The Access Hollywood tape is the very first time we've seen any significant number of Republicans find the line that they wouldn't step across, and it was still such a small number of them that I see no reason to believe that the alt-right would be limited any more than the Tea Party has been thus far.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Garry Kasparov: Several of us have been pointing out for months that many of Trump's talking points come from Kremlin disinfo with great speed & accuracy.


He ain't just whistling Dixie...

Google Warns More Than a Dozen Russian Journalists and Activists About ‘Government-Backed Attackers’


Valdimir Putin is bringing back the 1930s: The Russian dictator hopes to benefit from a destabilized Europe. (WaPo)

It's like Trump would like to outdo Charles Lindbergh in Philip Roth's The Plot Against America.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 3:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


Just for this month, Esquire has resurrected the much-missed Spy magazine, featuring such articles as "Is Donald Trump Genetically Defective?", "TV Writers Know How to Make Hillary More Likable", and the return of their Separated at Birth series. (OK, that last one is a little stale, but without Gawker, Jon Stewart, and The Colbert Report, I'll take any satire to ease the sense of unreality surrounding this election.)
posted by Doktor Zed at 3:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


being anti-Hillary is going to be a growth industry if she becomes President. Conway, having gone to the mat for Trump against Hillary, will be in a great position to sign on with whatever faction of the GOP comes out ahead once the dust settles

From The New Yorker: "Kellyanne Conway's Political Machinations." Worth reading.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Buzzfeed: Here’s Audio Of Trump Campaign CEO Saying: “What We Need To Do Is Bitch Slap” The GOP
As first reported by Conor Friedersdorf of The Atlantic, Bannon years ago — in a 2010 interview — advocated rallying Tea Party supporters to “bitch slap the Republican Party” in the 2010 midterm elections and beyond.
posted by erratic meatsack at 3:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I get annoyed from time to time with Greenwalt's Intercept
There is usually a mix of editorializing and released materials. My pro Israel bias also clashes with his consistent anti Israel bias. In his editorial writing he is a bit like Chomsky and seems unable to find anything decent, nice, about the U.S. We are, true, often doing bad stuff; on the other hand, we have done a lot of good things for the world.
posted by Postroad at 3:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think that Eichenwald overhypes his stories on Twitter and has a confusing writing style, combined with the awful typography on the Newsweek website, that makes even a story of moderate complexity hard to follow. He sometimes tries to sell a lot more than he has, and that's true here too. He's been busy spending the last day picking fights with random people on Twitter who insult him, which further speaks to this problem. I also agree there's a danger in seeing a red menace everywhere. Most of our problems are coming from inside the house, and it's far too tempting to blame Russia for our own mess. But, it is also in Russia's interest to stir up FUD, and there is reasonable evidence they have sought to do that in a number of countries by backing right-wing groups.

I don't think the issue Eichenwald is flagging should be entirely ignored here. There is no smoking gun that connects Trump and Russian propaganda outfits, other than the fact that they both made the same egregious error misreading an email and trying to cast it as a knockout blow against Clinton. Eichenwald went too far in trying to sell more of a connection that he has no evidence for.

But still, to take the most benign view of the situation, ignoring any other allegations of hacking or disinformation and treating this incident on its own, Trump and Russian propaganda efforts are both trawling the same cesspool for dirt and then presenting it to the world as diamonds, without making the slightest effort to verify anything first, as long as what they find is intended to make Hillary Clinton look bad. Even if it all came form some alt-right tweet, it's a considerable problem that yet another thing so factually wrong came out of Trump's mouth at all. Reproducing random nonsense from the dark corners of the internet is the exact same process that brought us the "sheriff's star" horribleness. And Eichenwald's story has to be understood in the context that you can't handwave away every single bit of evidence of Russian influence anywhere in this election.

You have to really radically misread the email to spin it the way Sputnik and Trump did, like, you have to not look at where it says "Newsweek" and "Kurt Eichenwald" right there at the top. You also have to somehow think that Blumenthal wrote a 10,000 word journalistic story to send to his Clinton campaign pals instead of realizing it was something he was forwarding. To be misread it that wrongly, you have to be either a complete idiot, or not care that you're spreading easily disprovable lies. Two entities met those descriptions here: the Trump campaign and Sputnik.
posted by zachlipton at 3:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


from my perspective, and from the information that I consume, the connection between Trump and Putin, and between the Kremlin and various hacks, is wildly overstated. I wish I could provide a number of detailed citations, but here's a good place to start.

Thank you very much. I agree that Trump is the immediate threat and needs to be stopped. I'm struck though that this article
1) confirms that Putin is likely taking all the discussed active efforts to help Trump, and
2) does not address one way or the other whether Moscow is behind the hacking. He only says it's a red herring distracting from the real threat, which is Trump.

It seems to be more of a "so what?" than a "not true." And I happen to think that a foreign power actively intervening on behalf of a political candidate who is doing that foreign powers policy favors already (eg Republican platform on Ukraine, comments on NATO), is extremely disturbing -- even if it was John McCain or John Kerry we were talking about.
posted by msalt at 3:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


Elle: Meet the High School Senior Who Wore a "Grab My Pussy" Shirt To a Trump Rally


In 30 years when she's running for President against Donald Eric Taco Bowl Trump IV and winning in a landslide, and Wikileaks comes out with "SHOCKING PICTURE OF CANDIDATE WEARING OBSCENE T-SHIRT" I'm going to run around the old folks' home smiling and yelling "I TOLD YOU I KNEW HER FROM SOMEWHERE!" and they'll have to increase my medications.
posted by mmoncur at 3:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [110 favorites]


There have been some Tea Party Republicans elected to Congress, but never a cohesive group of them with a cohesive leader determined to actually burn things down. They at least have a veneer of civility.

Rep. Joe Wilson, the guy who shouted "YOU LIE" at President Obama, is a Tea Party Republican. (More examples of similar civility at the link.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]




mkay

If you want to adopt this sort of tone, feel free to MeMail me. I answered your question as truthfully as I could, and with the best of intentions.
posted by My Dad at 3:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Am I right in thinking that one of the many things that has allowed Trump to rise is gerrymandering?

Funny you should mention that--I had just posted the below tidbit in the old thread. It put some things into a light that I hadn't considered before.

LA Times: Gerrymandering helped Republicans take control of Congress, but now it's tearing them apart over Trump

A gerrymandering of congressional districts, completed six years ago, sought to secure a Republican House majority for years to come by packing Democratic voters into fewer, often urban and minority districts and giving Republican candidates comfortable majorities in the ones they control.

But those tailor-made districts yielded a new crop of hard-right, often uncompromising Republican members of Congress, running safely in mostly white, older and rural districts, where Trump’s support is strongest.

These conservative House members are increasingly at odds with Republican senators, party leadership and a handful of remaining House swing-district lawmakers, who are wringing their hands over Trump because they still must appeal to a broader swath of voters, including moderates, independents and minorities.

posted by polecat at 3:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


I'm so glad Keith Olbermann is available to express my anguish in loud dulcet tones.
posted by janey47 at 3:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I still don't get why the two of you still identify as R. Like you do more community involvement than almost anyone in your community. You obviously care about people dearly. What do you still identify with? Just a general dislike of big govt + continued legal access to firearms?

I think it's no accident that Ana Navarro and I are both Nicaraguan, both around the same age, and both with a visceral distaste for left-wing revolutions that affects how we see the world. I don't know all of her family's personal circumstances, but I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house. It makes it hard for me to hear and trust the Democrats on other matters, because I wonder how they all tie together and where their hard stop is. Sometimes I even want to, but it's hard.

I think I'm holding out a lot of hope that after the Republican Civil War, the reasonable voices will be the ones who win. If the others do, I don't really know where I'll go. I think a lot of us are asking those questions. Join the libertarians and try to make them into a real party? Join the Democrats and try to influence the economic side? It's a real puzzle, honestly. I wish I knew a better answer. I wish I had a better party.
posted by corb at 3:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [148 favorites]


If you want to adopt this sort of tone, feel free to MeMail me. I answered your question as truthfully as I could, and with the best of intentions.

wasn't my question. but my tone was nonplussed, is all; my read of the article was that it was basically agreeing that Putin is doing shenanigans
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


LAT: Gerrymandering helped Republicans take control of Congress, but now it's tearing them apart over Trump

"The GOP infighting, in many ways, is no surprise and largely of the party’s own making.

A gerrymandering of congressional districts, completed six years ago, sought to secure a Republican House majority for years to come by packing Democratic voters into fewer, often urban and minority districts and giving Republican candidates comfortable majorities in the ones they control.

But those tailor-made districts yielded a new crop of hard-right, often uncompromising Republican members of Congress, running safely in mostly white, older and rural districts, where Trump’s support is strongest.

These conservative House members are increasingly at odds with Republican senators, party leadership and a handful of remaining House swing-district lawmakers, who are wringing their hands over Trump because they still must appeal to a broader swath of voters, including moderates, independents and minorities."

EDIT: Or exactly what polecat posted.
posted by chris24 at 3:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


To be misread it that wrongly, you have to be either a complete idiot, or not care that you're spreading easily disprovable lies. Two entities met those descriptions here: the Trump campaign and Sputnik.

It's also an error that suggests, but doesn't prove, either coordination or derivation from the same source. On top of everything else already connecting Trump to Russia.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Woman: “If Hillary Clinton gets in...I’m ready for a revolution, b/c we can’t have her in”

The most telling part of that woman's not-a-question was that she'd been pushing Trump on social media constantly for over a year. Like the two people profiled in the WaPo over the last month, she has lots of time on her hands, a desire to make sense of the world, and a never-ending high-pressure hose of shit to fill her days with. (And yes, I'm aware that election threads are a much-less-shitty but not-dissimilar variation on that.)
posted by holgate at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've been waiting for someone in the Trump campaign itself to jump ship. They have to realize that Trump's chances are remote. They have to understand that they will be forever tainted by their association with Trump (although it's probably too late to do much about that). And it's clear that Trump is no longer even nominally under their control (and is probably as much of a raging fucknozzle to them as he is to everyone else).

If that does happen, it'll be the surest sign yet that the Trump campaign is disintegrating. If his poll numbers continue to plummet, if he becomes even more erratic and earns further condemnation, if there are further damning revelations about Trump – all likely scenarios – maybe one of them will say "fuck this", and flee from the burning building.

It's kind of surprising that it hasn't happened already. Are they hoping for a slot in Trump's rumored TV network? Are they just true believers? (Because I've assumed that anyone working with Trump is just a cynical opportunist, using the feces-encrusted circus peanut for their own purposes.)

Talk of election night violence is rendered even more frightening by virtue of the nation's largest police union endorsing Trump.

This has definitely been on my mind. At this point, I am bracing myself for some kind of unrest in the aftermath of the election. Hopefully it will be no more than a few small, isolated incidents.

Here's the other thing that concerns me about that: it will be very tricky for authorities to contain such unrest without further inflaming the situation. If alt-righters take to the streets with guns, can you imagine what will happen if Obama sends in the National Guard to quash it? That'll play straight into the exact paranoid conspiracy theories that feed Trump's base. That's the kind of situation that can spiral quickly out of control. I doubt that Trumpists have the organization to pull off a successful coup – but they could hurt a lot of people trying. And if some portion of the police, or even the military, do side with the Trumpists...and if Putin starts supporting them...

I wouldn't be surprised if the Obama administration is quietly planning for, at least, small-scale militia actions. I hope they are.

I'm all out of schadenfreude at this point. I just want this to be over.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [41 favorites]


My goals for President Hillary Clinton and her Democratic Congress:
Bush & Cheney have never been prosecuted for lying to get us into war in Iraq that cost thousand of Allied lives and in excess of 125,000 civilian Iraqi lives.

The banks that tanked the economy - did they break regulations and laws? Can we prosecute?

Reinstate the graduated income tax. It's easier with computing power. Earn more? Pay a higher percentage.

Increase the maximum amount of earnings subject to FICA and index it to the cost of living or something

Raise the minimum wage, and index it to the cost of living or something.

I'll think of more. Not getting complacent, but it's about damn time we set a better agenda.
posted by theora55 at 3:38 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Breitbart Boss Stephen Bannon Bragged in 2015: ‘I’m Trump’s Campaign Manager’

"A year before he became campaign CEO, the alt-right media master boasted he was calling the shots and turning his news site into a platform for his candidate."
posted by chris24 at 3:40 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Bush & Cheney have never been prosecuted for lying to get us into war in Iraq that cost thousand of Allied lives and in excess of 125,000 civilian Iraqi lives.

You are absolutely right, and that is never going to happen post-Trump and in a Clinton presidency. Or probably any presidency.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


When I look at what Christie, Cruz, Ryan, &c. have been reduced to, it's an object lesson that "the gates of Hell are locked from the inside."* They could leave this in an instant, if only they could.

*C.S. Lewis "The Great Divorce"
posted by DGStieber at 3:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


My take on the Trump candidacy (and his big decision of the past two days):

Trump had no real expectation of winning the Presidency and was basically in the primaries because of a toxic mix of ego and greed (the visibility would elevates his brand and the PAC money lines his pockets).

Then the unthinkable happened and far more reasonable candidates like Bush and Rubio started to implode. This left Trump in a position of thinking he might actually have a shot. So he went for it, and by virtue of the massive number of racists and nutbags, managed to win the primary!

Buoyed by this, Trump begins to believe his own press and thinks he's got a chance to take the whole enchilada! Polls show him up (or tied) in many states!

And then, his karma (and septic mouth) catches up to him this past week and he begins to crater.

So he makes a decision - sometime in the past couple of days - that he probably won't win. BUT, he can lock in the fanatical devotion of tens of millions of racists and nutbags and become their hero. So he cancels all of his ads in the swing states yesterday (the better to pocket that sweet PAC money for later influence-buying and self-dealing) and decides to go nuclear.

His overall popularity drops as he becomes more strident and crazy, but his base is now forever his. And if Fox News has shown us anything, it's that you don't need to have the respect of a majority of people (or reason, or couth) in order to make a killing off of millions of people that are utterly devoted to you.

So he's now come full circle...and it's once more all about the grift for Cheetoh Jesus.
posted by darkstar at 3:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Woman: “If Hillary Clinton gets in...I’m ready for a revolution, b/c we can’t have her in”
Pence: “Don’t say that”


This video it's so clear that Pence is clearly uncomfortable with Trump fomenting insurrection.
posted by Talez at 3:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The banks that tanked the economy - did they break regulations and laws? Can we prosecute?

Ha! Clinton will never do this. She, like Obama, is going to appoint Wall Street insider types to Treasury and the Fed, and whoever she makes AG won't want to ruin his/her future in a white shoe firm by upsetting their biggest clients.

I wish she would do this, but, reality bites.
posted by dis_integration at 3:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house.

The promises are not the problem, as you well know - it's the use of hatred and fear as a motivator, and for the moment at least, those are tools of the Republican party.

Should the powers that be to the left of center being exploring that toolbox, I will no doubt find myself in a similar position as you.
posted by Mooski at 3:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


You have to really radically misread the email to spin it the way Sputnik and Trump did, like, you have to not look at where it says "Newsweek" and "Kurt Eichenwald" right there at the top.

The Trump fandom has a tendency to make stupid mistakes like this, I've noticed on r/the_donald and Twitter. There was an amusing one on the DNC leak, where Clinton operative Soandso is subscribed to the Ted Cruz fundraising letters for intelligence purposes. So there's a message in the leaks like "Hi Soandso, Ted Cruz badly needs your help to defeat Donald Trump! Please give us all your money!" and they get excited about finding out that the Clinton campaign is secretly funding Ted Cruz...

*Though perhaps that too was a massive fraud perpetrated by a conspiracy of the entire media, the government, and private security firms.

Do you not remember the Iraqi WMDs?
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 3:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


All the President’s Misogynists: Why It Took So Long to Derail the Trump Train. "What took so long for members of the GOP to try to 'dump Trump?' The answer lies in the deep pathologies of the GOP agenda, which are shaped in turn by the fundamentalist corporate and religious forces that now control the party, and a shared Madonna-Whore approach to women foundational to the GOP platform."

Democracy Now: "All the President's Misogynists": Jodi Jacobson on Why It Took So Long to Derail the Trump Train
posted by homunculus at 3:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm sure that Trump will try to profit from this after he loses, but the notion that his increasingly erratic behavior is some kind of calculated strategy gives him too much credit, I think. He is pure, impulsive id. Nothing he's done over the last 16 months suggests that he's capable of that kind of tactical thinking. We're seeing a pathlogical personality who is cornered and deeply threatened - nothing more.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


i can't wait til everyone is at least 1/10th as tired of hamilton as i am
posted by poffin boffin at 3:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [93 favorites]




Yeah, I'm increasingly at a loss to identify Republicans governing in good faith. Every single time the talking head Trump surrogates talk about Americans' dissatisfaction with the direction America is going they miss the implicit asterisk that comes with that statement. When I tell Gallup that this is how I feel, I am explicitly referring to the obstructionist take no prisoners style of government cooked up by the Republicans after Obama was sworn in. By all means, Paul, push back at progressivism, but when you cut off your nose to spite your face I lose faith in your party's intentions. See: Republican attachment of Planned Parenthood agendas to hold up the Zika funding desperately required in mostly red states.
posted by xyzzy at 3:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


i can't wait til everyone is at least 1/10th as tired of hamilton as i am

The problem is that "success" for musicals is repeating virtually the exact same show every night. Forever. ;)
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


How many police officers will be among those who believe the election was rigged?

Probably the ones in San Antonio wearing Trump hats.

I'm not so much worried about post-election violence than about voter intimidation shit because of either a) cops not responding to calls; b) a few really shitty cops doing their own intimidation. (It only takes a few of them.) We know that "voters will be checked for outstanding warrants" and "settle your parking tickets or missed child support payments" are routinely used to suppress the vote in minority communities -- flyposters that appear on utility poles as if by magic. The next step would be for a handful of cops to decide that they ought to lurk around certain polling places and check tags. And because policing in the US is so fragmented, there's limited recourse.
posted by holgate at 3:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


@teddyschleifer
"Trump at Texas fundraiser, per attendees:
-- Pops off on Paul Ryan
-- Repeats he is free from "shackles"
-- Wishes he had loyalty like Dems"
posted by chris24 at 3:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


@Kasparov63: Anyone can edit Wikipedia, but only the KGB can edit Wikileaks.

It does appear that, at this stage, Julian Assange is a Russian propaganda asset, willingly or otherwise.

I wonder how long until he follows his instincts (think the fable about the Frog and the Scorpion), bites Putin's hand, and ends up with a gut full of polonium or some equivalent. I imagine the FSB are aware of his tendencies and, are keeping a careful eye on him, and have someone in the Ecuadorian embassy poised to deliver the shot to the base of the skull should he even look like he's contemplating ratfucking Putin, or even before that, when the Czar indicates that his uses have been expended.
posted by acb at 4:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


i can't wait til everyone is at least 1/10th as tired of hamilton as i am

Until Saturday Night Live I wasn't 100% sure that Hamilton was a real thing. I thought it might be a Metafilter in-joke like the Steves and Merediths and Egg McMuffin.
posted by mmoncur at 4:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [57 favorites]


I think it's no accident that Ana Navarro and I are both Nicaraguan, both around the same age, and both with a visceral distaste for left-wing revolutions that affects how we see the world. I don't know all of her family's personal circumstances, but I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house. It makes it hard for me to hear and trust the Democrats on other matters, because I wonder how they all tie together and where their hard stop is. Sometimes I even want to, but it's hard.

The difference, with due respect, corb, is that the propositions for wealth redistribution in the US--at least, the ones made by anybody who has any chance of actually making anything happen--are not at all revolutionary in nature. The reason they are being proposed is to fix a severe imbalance in wealth distribution that, if left unattended, is going to significantly increase the chances of violence in the long-term. The US has had a lot longer post-colonial period to stabilize, and a lot shorter a colonial period in the first place for everything to get totally screwed up here. The dynamics are not the same. We don't have the same problems to fix that Nicaragua has to fix, and we have different resources with which to solve those problems.

We have the advantage here of a long period of relative political and economic stability to start from, which has not generally been the case for Latin America, for a number of reasons. I think this election is proving very well that we can't expect that stability to last forever. That's why the time that we need better education, better health care, a better justice system, and the first baby steps towards better redistribution of resources is now, not fifty years from now. Not just to prevent people from getting angry enough to be violent, but to prevent any group or individual, regardless of which side of the economic spectrum they pretend to support, from using the public's anger to their own benefit.
posted by Sequence at 4:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [194 favorites]


I heard her risotto is sub-par

i never liked her spinach puffs
posted by poffin boffin at 4:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


This video it's so clear that Pence is clearly uncomfortable with Trump fomenting insurrection.

Then he should have said "vote and then go home", like everybody else. She said she was going to be at the polls wearing red and was encouraging others to do the same. Pence seems to me to be providing himself the thinnest veneer of plausible deniability when that woman sees some person of color walk into a polling place, realize they left something in their car, and then walk back in again to vote. And then that woman takes that "this is dire, my life and kids are at stake" talk she starts off the video with, and does something terrible. Remember - when Trump said he was going to put his political opponent in jail, Pence said that was a great moment in the debate.

Also, I would bet money on not a single person directly involved in the campaign (someone whose name we are all familiar with) leaving and citing dissatisfaction with the campaign in any way. Because look at what Trump is doing. He's gathered together a veritable mob, and anybody who leaves at this point has to be scared for their life if they're viewed as being the person that caused Trump to lose the election via the resulting negative press.
posted by cashman at 4:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]




Here's what the map would look line if only women voted ... And here's if just dudes voted.

Whoa whoa whoa what's that big blue state at the bottom of the "women voted" map?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here's what the election would look like if only women voted...

Is it too late to change my sex before election day?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


@realDonaldTrump [real]
Wow, @CNN Town Hall questions were given to Crooked Hillary Clinton in advance of big debates against Bernie Sanders. Hillary & CNN FRAUD!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


My very astute 14 year-old niece texted me to say that Casey Neistat has endorsed Hillary Clinton. I don't even know what the demographers call the people who come after the millennials, the post-snake people, but i'm pretty sure most of his subscribers are not old enough to vote. While he basically says that he's voting for Clinton because Trump is so awful, he does challenge the other youtube stars to step up and take sides in the election even if it costs them subscribers or likes or whatever.

It's pretty easy for metafilter to hate on Casey Neistat, but he did make a video about his experience volunteering in 2008 for the Obama campaign in Ohio which is pretty cute and a reminder of better times.
posted by peeedro at 4:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Just got polled out of Gainesville.

Q1: Clinton, Trump, Huntsman, or Stein, undecided.

Q2: Murphy or Rubio, undecided.

Q3: nationwide min wage: abolish, leave at 7 something, raise to 10, raise to 12.50, raise to 15, undecided.

Age:

Sex:

Gun control laws: leave the same, ease, strengthen, not sure I put the choices
In the right order.

Tobacco taxes: same, raise, undecided.

Marijuana nationwide: legal for all, medical only, something I can't remember but had the word medical in it.
posted by tilde at 4:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]




I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house.

The GOP talking about who is and isn't a 'real American', and specifically wanting that definition to extend to people born in this country but whose ethnic or racial background does not fit the desires of their elites, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the authoritarian fascists who murdered my entire family (who was not so lucky to have fled to the US yet), took our land and repopulated our village with people they found ethnically acceptable.

The main difference between these two things, of course, is that it's not just Trump and the Tea Party, but establishment GOP calling for the monitoring of ethnically different peoples, the deport of ethnically different people, the disenfranchisement of ethnically different people and explaining away, forgiving and even supporting the state sponsored MURDER of ethnically different people.
To the best of my knowledge, even the most crazed of liberal congress-people have never called for taking away anyone's house because they are too rich or really doing more than ensuring that they do not have so many tools to avoid supporting the nation that allowed them to gain that wealth. There's no equivalence, and to ignore literal calls for death because of a false equivalence is just not in good faith.

I will say that I was once a republican, and am still too politically fragmented to solidly identify as a democrat. I'm far too much a redneck, gun-owning, war-mongering, elitist, socialist pacifist to be anything specific in American politics, and that's just fine. If you want to have a party to put your name to, you'd better be willing to accept what they are is all I'm saying. Can't have it both ways.
posted by neonrev at 4:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [100 favorites]


trump: i do sex crimes
beyoncé: i reward consensual, enjoyable sex with cheddar biscuits
trump supporters: CHECKMATE LIBERALS


To troll the whiny Trumpkins, HRC should say she loves Azealia Banks (definitely NSFW, and definitely the best song to use against Trump following Friday's revelations)
posted by My Dad at 4:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


WaPo editorial: Donald Trump, Putin’s puppet:
And Mr. Trump? Once again, the GOP nominee played the part of Vladi­mir Putin’s lawyer. “She doesn’t know if it’s the Russians doing the hacking,” he said of Ms. Clinton. “Maybe there is no hacking.” Mr. Trump is receiving classified intelligence briefings, so he is certainly aware of the evidence that hackers backed by Moscow have stolen email and other records from the DNC and tried to penetrate state electoral systems. So why does he deny it? Mr. Trump’s advocacy on behalf of an aggressive U.S. rival, and the opaqueness of his motivation, is one of the most troubling aspects of his thoroughly toxic campaign.

Experts differ on whether the Putin regime is trying to tip the election to Mr. Trump, as Ms. Clinton suggested, or merely to sow confusion and distrust about the integrity of U.S. democracy. But the leaks traced to Russia through the WikiLeaks website have been aimed at Ms. Clinton — most recently emails from her campaign chairman revealing excerpts from her private speeches on Wall Street. The timing of the WikiLeaks releases, clearly calculated to do maximum damage to the Democrats, confirms (again) that the website is not a crusader for transparency, but a willing political agent of the Kremlin.
posted by zachlipton at 4:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


This happened. Obama responds to Alex Jones saying he and Hillary are literal demons who smell like sulfur. Then he sniffs himself

Now...I mean...come on, people!
posted by infinitywaltz at 4:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [59 favorites]


Glenn Greenwald does not like the United States nor does he like the Democratic Party. He does not have particularly progressive ideas nor does he live according to progressive values. Instead he seems to have fled to Brazil where he can have cheap servants and dodge US taxes. He's spent the last 8 years pissing on Obama and helping advance nothing but his own ego.
posted by humanfont at 4:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]


Bush & Cheney have never been prosecuted for lying to get us into war in Iraq that cost thousand of Allied lives and in excess of 125,000 civilian Iraqi lives.

I hope you aren't getting your hopes up about this one because there's two chances this happens: slim and none (and I'm betting on none).

this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house

I get that there's some traumatic family history here, but as people around here like to point out, the Democrats are a party of the mildly center left status quo. Now some of us are satisfied with that and some of aren't (and many of us are both at times). But you could fill the entire Congress with Democrats and they still wouldn't be Sandinistas.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [65 favorites]


This happened. Obama responds to Alex Jones saying he and Hillary are literal demons who smell like sulfur. Then he sniffs himself

"I mean... c'mon people!"

I love him so much.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [31 favorites]


Here's what the election would look like if only women voted...

19th Amendment FTW.
posted by chris24 at 4:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [43 favorites]


Poll too late for edit - have I voted early (today was the last day to register according to Rick Scott but the courts have extended it).
posted by tilde at 4:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I think this election is proving very well that we can't expect that stability to last forever.

And one of the overarching narratives of post-colonial South American history is the failure of American-style presidentialism in environments where there's limited trust in institutions, broad and obvious structural inequality, and a lot of outside interference.

(e.g. Glenn Greenwald lives in Brazil, where the sitting president was recently impeached and removed for corruption by a coalition that included plenty of legislators with equally dodgy stuff on their records.)
posted by holgate at 4:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


Conway, having gone to the mat for Trump against Hillary, will be in a great position to sign on with whatever faction of the GOP comes out ahead once the dust settles.
I'm not so sure. I think future candidates can accept previous losses in a campaign manager but the whole "we're keeping track of names" thing is a slash and burn strategy that only works if the Trumpists end up running the asylum. At best I could see a Paul Ryan looking for insight into the Trump base, but the current Republican Party is demographically doomed. I don't see how you get women and people of color to feel comfortable in a party with increasingly vocal misogynists, racists, and xenophobes. They used to prop themselves up on single issue voters (abortion, guns) but that strategy is becoming decreasingly viable as even gun owners look for common sense gun legislation and pro-lifers recognize that abortions decrease under Democratic administrations.
posted by xyzzy at 4:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Reinstate the graduated income tax. It's easier with computing power. Earn more? Pay a higher percentage."

The federal income tax is already progressive despite Steve Forbes best efforts.

"Increase the maximum amount of earnings subject to FICA and index it to the cost of living or something"

The Social Security Wage Base is already indexed. The Medicare portion of FICA is not capped at all.

You are correct that the maximum amount of earnings subject to Social Security tax should be higher. IMHO it should be uncapped like Medicare is. But everything else you are asking for is already done... Yay?
posted by great_radio at 4:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


@nickgourevitch:
"Gallup favorables:
Clinton w/ Dems: +57 net favorable
Trump w/ GOP: +30 net favorable
Which candidate's base is at risk of not turning out?"
posted by chris24 at 4:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Took my little baby daughter to vote today and held her hand so we could push the VOTE button together, so she can say she was there when we elected the first woman president of the United States.

I feel pretty good about American democracy today!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [271 favorites]


Economist/YouGov poll conducted over 10/7-8 (post-tape pre-debate) full results [pdf]. 44-38 in 4-way race; 48-43 in head-to-head matchup.

(many other metrics in the pdf like favorability, adjectives to describe the candidates, etc)
posted by melissasaurus at 4:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Which candidate's base is at risk of not turning out?

Historically, the one that is made up of young people.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


"I mean... c'mon people!"

OTOH, this is exactly what a demon would say.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


one of the overarching narratives of post-colonial South American history is the failure of American-style presidentialism

American-style presidential systems have never worked anywhere else they've been implemented; there's a reason the USA is pretty much the only country with its particular form of government, and most other democracies have some form of parliamentary system (most significantly the problem of conflicting claims to democratic legitimacy and representation of "the will of the people", when the legislative majority is of one party, and the executive is of another).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


1483 days until the 2020 election.

can someone start a thread?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [43 favorites]


it's a little known fact, but demons do not smell like sulfur - they smell like kind of stale, dried out cheese ...
posted by pyramid termite at 4:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


And here's if just dudes voted.

Looking at this made me angry in a bone-deep, helpless, futile way that's left me genuinely sick to my stomach.

I'd laugh and make jokes about "misandry" but I'm honestly too tired and sad.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 4:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


You'd think a literal demon would be able to avoid getting pneumonia.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [39 favorites]


I think it's no accident that Ana Navarro and I are both Nicaraguan, both around the same age, and both with a visceral distaste for left-wing revolutions that affects how we see the world. I don't know all of her family's personal circumstances, but I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house.

To add on to Corb here, my mother is also Nicaraguan, though much older (she's retired now, she took her oath of citizenship back in the late 60s in Knoxville, TN). I've mentioned before on the blue that the Contras that Reagan armed killed one of her family, not because he was a Sandinista, but because the Contras were the equivalent of a poorly trained militia, some of whom were no more than thugs, and armed thugs target whomever the fuck they want. She, my mother, has always been a republican, even after Iran-Contra came to light, because of what Corb discusses above. She hates the cult of Reagan, but she hates the underlying principles of the left and loves the underlying principles of the right.

My mom is With Her.
posted by Groundhog Week at 4:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [74 favorites]


Limburger.
posted by octobersurprise at 4:29 PM on October 11, 2016


Gone gone the form of man, comes a demon who is a secret Kenyan?

I'll see myself out.
posted by vrakatar at 4:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


Re: demons: People who can't smell a mountain of bullshit should not be relied upon to detect trace amounts of sulphur.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [34 favorites]


1483 days until the 2020 election.

can someone start a thread?


Check out the front page of MetaFilter on November 10th (or, shortly before I go into hiding from Cortex et al for a prolonged period of time).
posted by Wordshore at 4:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


the notion that his increasingly erratic behavior is some kind of calculated strategy gives him too much credit

It would if it were his strategy. What he's doing is clearly in synch with the demonstrated strategies of people like Bannon and Putin, either of whom is perfectly capable of playing the man like a game of Snake.
posted by Devonian at 4:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I was going to say something about poor Ken Bone, but it looks like he is okay. Someone linked to a tweet he made about his red sweater right after the debate and he had something like 25 followers. He's up to 130k now. I hope he's enjoying his 15 minutes.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Yeah, the Democratic Party is a big tent.

You can be in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade and be not just a Democrat in good standing, not just a sitting Democratic Senator, but the Minority Leader of the Senate.

You can assemble guns blindfolded.

Hell, you can even vote against the Affordable Care Act.

I mean, these positions would be hard right in any other Western nation. Hard. Right. Even the party of Ford, Reagan and the Bushes is dead now, let alone the party of Rockefeller, Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln. The Grand Old Party has become the Groping Ol'boys Party.

The Democratic Party is the only sane governing party left in this nation. It is the only realistic option for this social democrat, and it is the only realistic option for NeverTrumpers.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [83 favorites]


Just to clarify - the campaign event cancellation link in OP is to a Borowitz report article (satire).
posted by ancillary at 4:37 PM on October 11, 2016


I hope he's enjoying his 15 minutes.

Every time something like this happens, I can't help but think of the drummer who spent like 10 days with the Beatles while Ringo had tonsillitis - there's a picture of him waiting for a train (or bus, or something similarly everyday) - alone. It makes me sad.

I hope Ken Bone comes out the other side of this brush with fame about the same as he went in.
posted by Mooski at 4:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


I have long thought undecided voters are really only "TV Fame Hungry."
posted by agregoli at 4:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Woman: “If Hillary Clinton gets in...I’m ready for a revolution, b/c we can’t have her in”

Pence: “Don’t say that”


Note that he did NOT say "Don't do that."
posted by The World Famous at 4:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


And everybody laughed at Pence when he said "don't say that."
posted by The World Famous at 4:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


beerperson: What's the over/under on Trump just spending Nov 9 - Jan 20 acting like he won

Maybe we just get Liebot to tell him he won, and let him act like he won? [NB: It is somewhat distressing to look back at this arc and realise that (a) Philippe had a better platform than Trump, and (b) Todd as Philippe's running mate is actually about as offensive as Trump].

Serious answer: I spent yesterday looking at r/The_Donald and these people are nuts. They're now convinced that the GOP, Democrats, all of the media and the polling companies are all in on a plot, that Trump is really at least 10 points up but the polls are lies, and that the election will be stolen. So yeah...
posted by Pink Frost at 4:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


The Reuters/Ipsos poll that puts Clinton eight points ahead also has this interesting nugget:

Trump, however, appears to be shedding support among evangelicals, who are usually a wellspring of support for Republican presidential candidates. Monday's poll showed that Trump had only a 1-point edge over Clinton among people who identified as evangelicals. That’s down from a 12-point advantage for Trump in July.
posted by Devonian at 4:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [40 favorites]


I wonder if all these pieces by women evangelicals about why they can't support Trump are having an effect.
posted by peacheater at 4:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


I need a hug. My neighborhood, eastern PA median-price suburban homes, is peppered with trump signs. No Clinton signs (and I'm frankly too scared, tho I do have a magnet on my car).

And new trump signs popped up today.

I'm surrounded by people who hate. This really doesn't feel good.
posted by Dashy at 4:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [83 favorites]


Every time something like this happens, I can't help but think of the drummer who spent like 10 days with the Beatles while Ringo had tonsillitis - there's a picture of him waiting for a train (or bus, or something similarly everyday) - alone. It makes me sad.

It's Jimmie Nicol; the photo is of him at an airport.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Is it just me, or does Obama look younger in that sulphur video than he has in years? Must feel good to see the finish line in sight! (And to know that HRC is currently in the best racing shape of her life.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


I've had my Obama signs kicked down in my upper middle class neighborhood. Don't put up signs anymore. Also have had racial slurs defacing our side walks (we are adjacent to middle class neighborhoods that some Trumpers call "ghetto now" and we house the local elementary school) and a house 12 houses down where a dual wielding confederate flag adorned truck is usually parked.
posted by tilde at 4:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sorry, dashy. That sucks.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


My hometown, an upper-middle-class white suburb which is EXTREMELY proud of having one of the best public high schools in the county, is peppered with Trump signs. It ain't all dumb hicks who are still Trumping.
posted by desuetude at 4:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


Serious answer: I spent yesterday looking at r/The_Donald and these people are nuts.

One of my guilty pleasures, if that is the right word, is reading the reddits of people who I massively disagree with. I spent a fair bit of time a few years ago reading reddit's pro-gamergate sub, and it is hard to distinguish between the two in some ways.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I grew up in the evangelical subculture. I promise there are otherwise rock-solid Republican voters there who are absolutely disgusted with Trump, and hearing him talk about women that way is going to be particularly disturbing to a lot of them. Not that a lot of their views on women aren't deeply problematic, but men being respectful to women (by their definition) is something they hold as important. I can't imagine any of the men in the church I grew up in talking like that about a woman. It's almost like an anti-dogwhistle, a clear signal to many evangelicals that he is Not One Of Them.
posted by EarBucket at 4:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


Dashy: "I'm surrounded by people who hate. This really doesn't feel good."

I'm so sorry. You are not alone, and we are not going to let people like that win. Take care of yourself first and foremost, I know all too well how easy it is to give in to the hopelessness and rage when confronted with this on a daily basis.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


I spent a fair bit of time a few years ago reading reddit's pro-gamergate sub, and it is hard to distinguish between the two in some ways.

I'm pretty sure a Venn diagram of the two would form a near perfect circle.
posted by Mooski at 5:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]




Obama mocks Republicans for standing by Trump
“You can’t have it both ways here,” Obama said Tuesday during a rally in Greensboro, North Carolina. “You can’t repeatedly denounce what is said by someone and then say, ‘But I’m still gonna endorse them to be the most powerful person on the planet' and to put them in charge.’”

“So I just wanna make that point because there are still a number of Republican elected officials, some of whom I know and I’m sure are embarrassed and say, ‘Wow, that was a really terrible thing he said,’ but they can’t bring themselves to say, ‘I can’t endorse this guy,’” Obama told the energetic crowd of more than 7,000 people. “And by the way, why did it take so long for some of them to finally do walk away?”
posted by kirkaracha at 5:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [63 favorites]


@adrian_gray:
"White College Women since tape:
PRRI: Trump -39
NBC: Trump -29

Previous GOP Margins (2012...1980): +6, -7, +1, -5, -4, +0, +6, +10, +9"
posted by chris24 at 5:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]




In reversal, [NE] Sen. Fischer renews support for Trump

Strike up the band! Refill that punch bowl!

♫ Hatin' times are here again... ♫
posted by tonycpsu at 5:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of white evangelical women pull the lever for Hillary in the privacy of the voting booth and never tell anyone they did it. But a bigger issue is that women make the ground game go, and if they don't show up to volunteer, then the Republicans have nobody doing GOTV stuff. And that hurts Republican candidates up and down the ticket.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [55 favorites]


Ben Carson warns conservatives of 'mass killings once again' without resistance to government
Outside the college were the letters "RLM" and a cross covered with American flags. The sign next to them read: "Religious Liberty Matters."

Inside, Ben Carson urged a conservative audience to be strong in their faith and stand by their beliefs in the face of "ever-growing government."

Tyranny will reign otherwise, "and there will be mass killings once again," Carson told a crowd Friday. "The peace that we experience now will be a memory only. This is the nation that stands between peace and utter chaos."

Asked at a press conference how he thought such a grim future might come about, Carson referenced "the whole gay marriage issue."
posted by kirkaracha at 5:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


Trump is nuts, because no fraud is needed to steamroll his tiny little percentage, but I am so tired of articles that disingenuously dismiss election fraud by "accidentally" calling it voter fraud.

Sometimes I just can't believe we're still stuck in denial like it's still 2000.
posted by rokusan at 5:06 PM on October 11, 2016


Ben Carson is his own entire kind of crazy, isn't he? An asylum of one.
posted by rokusan at 5:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


In reversal, [NE] Sen. Fischer renews support for Trump

Ignorant jackass or not, he's got something pulling some powerful as hell strings. This person was calling for him to step down last Saturday.

The faster we get this guy back into real estate grifting, the better.
posted by Mooski at 5:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


In Greensboro, Obama says Trump has disqualified himself for job at 7-Eleven
“The guy says stuff nobody would find tolerable if they were applying for a job at 7-Eleven,” Obama said during a lengthy speech to a crowd of 7,700 at an outdoor amphitheater. “I also know a lot of casino operators who managed not to lose $1 billion in a year. They say the house always wins. I don’t know what happened.”
posted by kirkaracha at 5:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [94 favorites]


I've watched the "Dish and Dishonesty" episode of Black Adder (the one focusing on an election) twice since Tony "Baldrick" Robinson's Trump advice tweet the other day and its also been making me feel better.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Christianity Today — the flagship Evangelical magazine in America — denounces Trump

Now, the flagship magazine of evangelical Christianity is blasting the Republican presidential nominee – and criticizing the Christians who vote for him.

“Enthusiasm for a candidate like Trump gives our neighbours ample reason to doubt that we believe Jesus is Lord,” Christianity Today editorial director Andy Crouch wrote Monday in an editorial. “They see that some of us are so self-interested, and so self-protective, that we will ally ourselves with someone who violates all that is sacred to us.”

Christianity Today was founded by evangelist Billy Graham in 1956 and today serves as a major voice of evangelicals, who make up about more than a quarter of the U.S. population.

posted by Jalliah at 5:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [85 favorites]


Ben Carson is his own entire kind of crazy, isn't he? An asylum of one.

I think of him as a milliArcham.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:13 PM on October 11, 2016



Gah I missed my question on my post.

Is the Christianity Today denouncement actually a big deal in Evangelical world?
posted by Jalliah at 5:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ben Carson is his own entire kind of crazy, isn't he? An asylum of one.

Any other election year, I'd say the Republicans dodged a bullet there, but....
posted by invincible summer at 5:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I wish I could go back in time and rip the Scott Baio posters off my wall. Who the hell knew?!
posted by heyho at 5:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [28 favorites]


Rick Wilson is teasing "evidence of the GOP nominee's utter collapse in a red state" that he says will be published soon. My bet is Utah is going blue.
posted by corb at 5:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [33 favorites]


Yeah, Christianity Today is a big deal, and is semi-apolitical with a socially conservative lean. I don't know how many minds it'll change at this point, but it's highly credible to a lot of people who need to hear that message.
posted by EarBucket at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


someone who violates all that is sacred to us.”

Game over.
posted by vrakatar at 5:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]




okay you guys we can shut this thing off now

we're done

stop the planet and the stars and all that jazz, we're done
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]




Yeah, I just saw that and was writing a comment:
Hayes: If Trump was recorded saying "I enjoy raping women," would that cause you to stop endorsing him?
Farenthold: "Uh....well..I mean...... that would be bad. But what is the context..?" (barely paraphrased from memory, so [real])
posted by gatorae at 5:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Blake Frenthhold has a wonderful record with women.. It's a TPM link but may not be work safe.
posted by nathan_teske at 5:22 PM on October 11, 2016


"Is the Christianity Today denouncement actually a big deal in Evangelical world?"

Yeah, it's a pretty big deal.

Christianity Today is a more mainstream arm of evangelical Christianity and, as such, doesn't go in for the conspiracy theory end of the right wing and that sort of thing. But it's the most widely-read evangelical publication (and read among other Christian groups as well) and it's very well-respected and has "good theology." Every Baptist pastor I know subscribes; every evangelical who takes theology seriously takes Christianity Today seriously.

Obviously if you are in the tank for crazy a well-reasoned statement from a well-respected Evangelical publication isn't going to sway you. But a lot of Republican-voting Southern Baptists and Pentecostals will read it and take it very seriously, whether they ultimately agree with it or not.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [57 favorites]


“I also know a lot of casino operators who managed not to lose $1 billion in a year. They say the house always wins. I don’t know what happened.”
Whoa! You just got sonned, Donnie.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Is the Christianity Today denouncement actually a big deal in Evangelical world?

Yes. It is the Evangelical equivalent of TIME or Newsweek. The conventional wisdom of a community that's obsessed with policing its boundaries.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


Josh Marshall on publishing and authenticating the Podesta emails, "the product of a at minimum a disruption campaign from a foreign state"
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mapquest has announced a Trexit contest. The lucky winner will receive relocation to Canada in the event of a Trump victory.
posted by humanfont at 5:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


>a petition in Palm Beach County Circuit Court asking a judge to declare Donald Trump mentally incapable of seeking the presidency

>the target of a frivolous petition can demand that the person who filed it be forced to pay his attorneys fees and court costs.

Uh-huh. And what opportunities for redress do I have, as the target of a frivolous Presidential campaign?

You have to take an eye test to get a driver's license. Do you have to pass any tests to be President? Like a little multiple-choice quiz even? 'Using a 2B pencil, please circle the truths which we hold to be self-evident'?
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


It is the Evangelical equivalent of TIME or Newsweek.

I was trying to figure out an analogy for it, but, yeah, that's perfect.
posted by EarBucket at 5:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Asked at a press conference how he thought such a grim future might come about, Carson referenced "the whole gay marriage issue."

I know it won't happen, but I wish the media would just...stop giving airtime to people who spew nonsense. I know that false equivalency has been discussed to death already, but it really is a huge part of the problem. There are people who have legitimate policy disagreements that are backed with at least a modicum of reason and good faith, and then there are crackpots and bullshit artists who actively seek to undermine reason. They are not the same, and they should not be treated the same for the sake of appearing "impartial". You should have to meet some baseline level of rationality and coherence before you are granted the platform of the national media. Gibbering that the government is going to start exterminating people because of the homos does not meet that standard. That is the rhetoric of a urine-soaked vagrant, not a person who should be invited to (what should be) a civilized and dignified conversation.

The only reason things aren't this way is because the media values money more than they value their dignity or the health of our republic and our discourse. So it goes.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [63 favorites]


If that Boca thing is real, Donnie's going to rant about the guy on camera, they just keeping pushing his buttons.
posted by vrakatar at 5:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Farenthold in that interview made me sick. You could actually see the moment where he decided in his head (and stopped short of saying it out loud) that he never wanted to give up his entitlement to bullying women. It was plain as day. That's the first thing that's actually nauseated me so far. Fuuuuuuck.
posted by heyho at 5:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Here's a few choice quotes from the actual Christianity Today editorial. They do not like Democrats in general and Hillary in particular, and this is their typical editorial stance:
But because several of the Democratic candidate’s policy positions are so manifestly incompatible with Christian reverence for the lives of the most vulnerable, and because her party is so demonstrably hostile to expressions of traditional Christian faith, there is plenty of critique and criticism of the Democratic candidate from Christians, including evangelical Christians.
But they REALLY unload on Trump, with both barrels and Scriptural references:
Indeed, there is hardly any public person in America today who has more exemplified the “earthly nature” (“flesh” in the King James and the literal Greek) that Paul urges the Colossians to shed: “sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry” (3:5). This is an incredibly apt summary of Trump’s life to date. Idolatry, greed, and sexual immorality are intertwined in individual lives and whole societies. Sexuality is designed to be properly ordered within marriage, a relationship marked by covenant faithfulness and profound self-giving and sacrifice. To indulge in sexual immorality is to make oneself and one’s desires an idol. That Trump has been, his whole adult life, an idolater of this sort, and a singularly unrepentant one, should have been clear to everyone.

And therefore it is completely consistent that Trump is an idolater in many other ways. He has given no evidence of humility or dependence on others, let alone on God his Maker and Judge. He wantonly celebrates strongmen and takes every opportunity to humiliate and demean the vulnerable. He shows no curiosity or capacity to learn. He is, in short, the very embodiment of what the Bible calls a fool.
Idolatry accusations are hard-core attacks:
But there is a point at which strategy [i.e., voting in the hopes of seating conservatives on the Supreme Court] becomes its own form of idolatry—an attempt to manipulate the levers of history in favor of the causes we support. Strategy becomes idolatry, for ancient Israel and for us today, when we make alliances with those who seem to offer strength—the chariots of Egypt, the vassal kings of Rome—at the expense of our dependence on God who judges all nations, and in defiance of God’s manifest concern for the stranger, the widow, the orphan, and the oppressed. Strategy becomes idolatry when we betray our deepest values in pursuit of earthly influence. [...] Enthusiasm for a candidate like Trump gives our neighbors ample reason to doubt that we believe Jesus is Lord. They see that some of us are so self-interested, and so self-protective, that we will ally ourselves with someone who violates all that is sacred to us—in hope, almost certainly a vain hope given his mendacity and record of betrayal, that his rule will save us.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [133 favorites]


What worries me about this election isn't that we're going to win, but that we're going to win and everyone is going to walk away with the wrong message.

I spent awhile talking to my friend and an acquaintance of hers. Both of them are terrified of Trump winning, but they're both still voting Green (my friend bragged that her entire family is). Both insist that what we need is a shock to the system. My best guess is that they see themselves as Rorschach -- what they want is a world on the brink of tyranny, just so we can all beg them to rescue us and they can say "no."

And when Clinton wins, they're going to declare they were right all along -- that Clinton won because she'd spent her time appealing to right-leaning groups. And, meanwhile, Clinton is going to win with a coalition of centrist voters.

All of which is to say (and I've thought this for awhile), Bernie or Busters are the reason we can't have nice things.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 5:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


What worries me about this election isn't that we're going to win, but that we're going to win and everyone is going to walk away with the wrong message.

A couple of Supreme Court Justices later, and I give two shits about what everybody's takeaway was.

Maybe 40% of that is the wine talking.
posted by Mooski at 5:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [63 favorites]


Well, she'll have at least four years to convince them otherwise and bring them back into the fold, if that's the case.
posted by penduluum at 5:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe the theory that Trump is an ultra-deep cover agent for Clinton/the Dems is true, and he's taking the entire Republican power structure down in one apocalyptic flame out.

Trump's Solid Gold Razor (permanently dull, because gold is uselessly soft for making blades): "It's probably just greed and stupidity."
posted by XMLicious at 5:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Bernie or Busters are the reason we can't have nice things.

BoBs are statistical noise. We have bigger problems.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [39 favorites]


Trump doing Trump on O'Reilly:

@kelseymsutton
"Trump just said that Hillary actually got into his space and that “she came into my territory”

“I never walked near her” he says"

...and...

@ndrew_lawrence
Draft dodger says "I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole" with former POW John McCain (video)
posted by chris24 at 5:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Both insist that what we need is a shock to the system.

You know, like a complete collapse of society, and takeover by white supremacists and sexual assaulters.
posted by benzenedream at 5:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Got my vote-by-mail packet today! Very excited to spend the next week going over all eleventy-zillion propositions, referendums, and elections on it!

Re:stickers: In my neck of the woods we get a sticker with the mail ballot! And if you turn it in at a polling place on Election Day you can get a sticker there, too!
posted by clorox at 5:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Shorter GOP, pace Tony Soprano: "What the fuck is a golem?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 5:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


What worries me about this election isn't that we're going to win, but that we're going to win and everyone is going to walk away with the wrong message.

Thankfully those people only amount to a tiny percentage of the electorate, far less than her polling margin today.

Clinton will need progressive voices to hold her to promises made, if the one thing the Podesta emails have shown it's that she's open to suggestion from the same old moneyed interests as Sanders people always said she was, but a) that's not new and b) the counter to that is continued grass roots activism and movement building to keep pushing her towards progressive goals. And Bernie Sanders showed she can be moved with concerted pressure. She's an incrementalist, but so is Obama, and he's done a lot of good domestically. People who are willing to throw that away on a Jill Stein vote were never serious about doing the hard work of governing to begin with, and aren't worth worrying over.

Clinton will also undoubtedly face a lot of accusations that she didn't *really* win, because the opponent was a Pumpkin Spice Flavored Mr. PotatoHead. That's also not worth engaging with, and the goal on November 10th will be to build a record of achievements that makes that line of argument seem absurd and petty on its face. Hopefully with a Democratic Congress, or it'll be a tall order.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


And more from Trump on O'Reilly:

@saletan
"Trump just said if he wins, Ryan will be "in a different position." i.e., demoted."

Dictator already planning purges.
posted by chris24 at 5:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [60 favorites]


Damned if you do and damned if you don't, eh Ryan.
posted by erratic meatsack at 5:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Both insist that what we need is a shock to the system.

because one of our candidates being the most venal mediocrity since harding and a k-mart level hitler isn't shock enough?

that's alright, we have plenty of more shocks coming
posted by pyramid termite at 5:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


> I think it's no accident that Ana Navarro and I are both Nicaraguan, both around the same age, and both with a visceral distaste for left-wing revolutions that affects how we see the world. I don't know all of her family's personal circumstances, but I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house. It makes it hard for me to hear and trust the Democrats on other matters, because I wonder how they all tie together and where their hard stop is.

Most of the Russian-Americans I know who fled the USSR feel the same way: Reagan is their hero, and the Democrats are radical socialists who want to start by taxing everyone into oblivion and then come for the private property. I know it's hard to break out of that kind of bunker, but corb, I hope you will reevaluate how you think about this stuff. I've mentioned this a number of times before, but the top marginal tax rate under Eisenhower was 91 percent. This was in the '50s, at the high point of American prosperity, and Eisenhower was a Republican. Seriously, nobody is coming to take your house, car, and guns away. I was a Republican myself in the early '60s, because I thought they were more fiscally responsible (and because I was a smartass kid who wanted to piss off my Democratic parents), but I got over it and I hope you will too. Moderate redistribution is not communism.

Also, another reminder to the MeFi public at large that however much we all enjoy these imagined news stories, dialogs, etc., they need to be labeled [fake]. Thank you!
posted by languagehat at 5:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [150 favorites]


But because several of the Democratic candidate’s policy positions are so manifestly incompatible with Christian reverence for the lives of the most vulnerable

What? Is this just abortion? She was a fucking Sunday school teacher! She said this off the top of her head when she was asked about her faith:
My study of the Bible, my many conversations with people of faith, has led me to believe the most important commandment is to love the Lord with all your might and to love your neighbor as yourself, and that is what I think we are commanded by Christ to do, and there is so much more in the Bible about taking care of the poor, visiting the prisoners, taking in the stranger, creating opportunities for others to be lifted up, to find faith themselves that I think there are many different ways of exercising your faith. But I do believe that in many areas judgment should be left to God, that being more open, tolerant and respectful is part of what makes me humble about my faith, and I am in awe of people who truly turn the other cheek all the time, who can go that extra mile that we are called to go, who keep finding ways to forgive and move on. Those are really hard things for human beings to do, and there is a lot, certainly in the New Testament, that calls us to do that.
That's about a third of her entire response. Her policies are in line with what she says about her faith. She and Tim Kaine are motherfucking exemplars of how people of faith should be guided in their political lives.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [160 favorites]


Wasn't McCain a pilot? Maybe the fact that planes don't go in foxholes wasn't part of Trump's military school curriculum.
posted by zachlipton at 5:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [30 favorites]


He is, in short, the very embodiment of what the Bible calls a fool.

Wow. That seems to be a not-so-subtle reference to Psalms 14:1, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


More Trump about Ryan on O'Reilly:

@desiderioDC
"TRUMP on Fox just now: "Paul Ryan is open borders, and amnesty, and bad budgets—very bad budgets."

"More Trump on Paul Ryan: "I don't want his support. I don't care about his support."
posted by chris24 at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I mean, she literally talks the talk and walks the walk.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


What? Is this just abortion?

Yes. Most vulnerable is code for "unborn babies"
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [31 favorites]


That seems to be a not-so-subtle reference to Psalms 14:1

Actually, the figure of the Fool is a major one in the Bible's Wisdom literature, particularly Psalms and Proverbs. Psalm 14 is particularly apt, though, as it comes at the end of a cycle of psalms about economic injustice and the wickedness of the rich who oppress and exploit the poor. The fool, it's saying, claims to believe in God but acts like he has no fear of being judged for his behavior: "Have they no knowledge, all these evildoers who eat up my people like bread?"
posted by EarBucket at 5:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


Yeah, corb- I'm far leftish now but used to be somewhat right, and I know- not think, know- that not all conservative ideas are bad ideas. We have big govt. in this country because it is a big, big country. We have to manage it, and big money and big media make it harder and less fair. But as you know well, this system has give and take and compromise built in, we have to work at it to keep it from getting this toxic. That is what politicians are for.
posted by vrakatar at 5:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


The thing that's bothering me the most about this election - the thing that's actually keeping me up nights - is that it seems we have no arbiters of truth or civility. I feel like the press used to serve this function, but that may just be a myth I picked up in childhood.

I listen to clips of what Trump is saying at rallies, the outright lies and the hyperbole and the venom, and I'm just left bewildered. How have we a a nation reached a point where a person who threatens the freedom of their political opponent, who incites violence against his political opponent and voters in her party, can just stand up and spew filth out at his audience and not be called on it by anyone? Why do we even need that tape to stand up and say this isn't right, this shouldn't be allowed to pass unchallenged? What he says every day in front of journalists and on television isn't right, and shouldn't be allowed to pass unchallenged.

I don't want to be super dramatic or anything, but I have actually been having nightmares. Not every night, but every now and then. In the dream I remember most clearly, I woke up the morning of November 9th and remembered that the night before, Trump had won. I had such a gutwrenching sense of despair and fear, it woke me up gasping for breath. In another dream where he won, I traveled to a Trump victory event to speak to him and beg him not to get us into a nuclear war.

I've been firmly in the tank for the democratic candidate for the presidency in every election since I was old enough to vote. We've won some and we've lost some, and when we've lost, I've sometimes been really worried about the nation's future. The night Gore lost wasn't even the night Gore lost for me - it was the morning. I'd gone to sleep with him declared the winner, only to wake up in a George Bush presidency. I thought that was the worst it would ever get.

But even then. I never felt this kind of fear for the country and the world, this certainty that everything good in the world was going to end if the other candidate won, that America was over, in any other election.

I worried we'd get into a war I didn't believe in at worst; I worried about losing Roe v. Wade and delaying action to deal with global warming (or prepare for the results of it); I worried about marriage equality and health care. But I never worried that I or my friends or my neighbors could die if the other candidate won. I never worried that the world as I knew it would be forever changed, or that this could be the last election America ever gets.

And here's the thing. Listening to that clip earlier of the woman saying she was ready for revolution if Clinton won, I heard the same kind of fear in her voice. The way I feel about Trump winning, she feels about Clinton winning. And I just don't know how we got here -- how we got to a place where Democrats and Republican's don't just disagree with each other -- we actively hate and fear each other. This woman is as scared that we're going to steal the election from her as I am that the Russians are going to steal it from Clinton.

When did this start to be so scary? How did we let it get to the point where we're all so afraid and frantic? And is there any way back from it? I'm having a hard time envisioning the 2020 election as any less fraught than this one. I think this entire country needs ... I don't know, some form of intensive couples therapy... before we could ever have a normal election again. Right now, we're so far post-truth and post-civility, it's starting to feel like this country is a failed experiment -- whether Clinton wins or not.
posted by invincible summer at 5:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [122 favorites]


So hanging out watching the stream for the rally in Panama City because I'm apparently a masochist now and God-Emperor Trump has not shown up and it's coming up on 90 minutes past the start time. The last person to speak was 45 minutes ago.

I wonder if he's still coming.
posted by Talez at 5:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


He's bested two hours before now...
posted by Devonian at 5:59 PM on October 11, 2016


Trump was bluffing during the second debate when he tried to compare incomes with Clinton, by way of bragging (transcript).

So I’m putting in more than — by the time it’s finished, I’ll have more than $100 million invested. Pretty much self-funding money.... I ask Hillary, why doesn’t — she made $250 million by being in office. She used the power of her office to make a lot of money. Why isn’t she funding, not for $100 million, but why don’t you put $10 million or $20 million or $25 million or $30 million into your own campaign?

UK filings show that Donald Trump misled the public about his income.

Trump's FEC financial form noted that his two Scottish golf courses earned him a combined $23 million in "golf related revenue" last year, with Turnberry pulling in $18.1 million and Aberdeen making $4.8 million. But the public filings the courses submitted in the United Kingdom tell a much different story. Trump's prized course at Turnberry—where he made a much ballyhooed appearance right before the Brexit vote—reported $16.8 million in revenue in 2015 and $18.6 million in expenses. When interest, depreciation, and currency exchange losses are factored in, Trump's Turnberry course lost over $2 million in 2015. And the corporate filings in the United Kingdom show that Trump's Aberdeen course lost about $1.6 million.
posted by Brian B. at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Clinton will need progressive voices to hold her to promises made, if the one thing the Podesta emails have shown it's that she's open to suggestion from the same old moneyed interests as Sanders people always said she was

Hopefully she doesn't renege and go back to talking about cutting Social Security benefits, or voting for war overseas without reading intelligence reports, or go back to saying minimum wage raises are not workable. Getting progressives elected in down-ticket races is more important than ever.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


A clarification on the foxhole comment earlier. It not just referred to McCain, but very specifically Ryan. Somebody is very unhappy with Ryan. #civilwar

@jmartNYT
TRUMP: "I wouldn’t want to be in a foxhole with a lot of these people that I can tell you, including Ryan...especially Ryan.”
posted by chris24 at 6:00 PM on October 11, 2016


Oh it's 7:30PM CST so he's only half an hour late so far.
posted by Talez at 6:01 PM on October 11, 2016


I think this was linked in the last election thread, but I just got around to reading it, and thought it was really good and worth reposting: Trump’s One Public Service Was Exposing the Misogyny of the GOP
posted by triggerfinger at 6:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Fool" in an Evangelical mouth is pretty harsh. It comes up in the Psalms a bit but the concept is really fleshed out in Proverbs. I will try to track down some key references when I get home.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


The ever-wonderful Duffelblog, on His Orangeness:Trump: I like Medal of Honor winners who weren't killed in combat.[fake]
posted by corb at 6:02 PM on October 11, 2016


Like, how fucked is Paul Ryan right now?

At this point, his best-case scenario might be that he wins his seat, but Clinton wins the election and the Dems take the House.
posted by box at 6:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Well I'm actually relieved that at least some in the Evangelical Christian community are finally coming to their senses. I mean, I can't think of anybody in public life who's less Christian than Trump. Abu al-Baghdadi, maybe.
posted by Flashman at 6:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Most vulnerable is code for "unborn babies"
And "unborn babies" is code for "single-celled fertilized eggs".
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [71 favorites]




Like, how fucked is Paul Ryan right now?

nowhere near enough.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [126 favorites]


There is only one political party left in the United States. The other three-ring tent of grifters, panderers and sociopaths are too busy chasing down the elephants that have broken their cage to put on a show.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Eh, the Republicans still control something like 2/3 of the state governments.
posted by drezdn at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


I have actual living family who would quite literally die if social security and medicare were eliminated because republicans think that free health care is equivalent to unicorns and candy.

Just a reminder that there is more at stake than just not electing Trump. Ryan is a zombie-eyed granny starver and his economic policies are dangerous and regressive. Eliminationalist rhetoric about the poor should not be any more acceptable just because it's covered with a glossy shell of "civility".
posted by winna at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [95 favorites]


Jeez I should know this by now but wow when he latches onto somebody he thinks wronged him he really obsesses.
The way he fixates is scary no matter who it is.
posted by Jalliah at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


Josh Marshall on publishing and authenticating the Podesta emails, "the product of a at minimum a disruption campaign from a foreign state"

I am particularly worried about what could happen with America's strategic risotto. Can I trust his advice? Or is it just disinformation to undermine the west?
posted by srboisvert at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


We're not saying the GOP isn't an extremely successful criminal enterprise; just that it's no longer a political party.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


Eh, the Republicans still control something like 2/3 of the state governments.

Yeah, I'm not saying a bunch of rampaging circus elephants can't do a lot of damage. But that's about all they can do. C.f. Kansas, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


At this point, his best-case scenario might be that he wins his seat, but Clinton wins the election and the Dems take the House.

He's most likely going to have the House and his Speakership as of today, unless Trump continues to nosedive and flail about to see how many Republicans he can take down with him. We can only keep hoping.

If Dems do retake the House, Ryan is fine, he's back to being in Minority Leadership and if he's smart he'd wash his hands of the Trumpster fire and Freedom Caucus wing and focus on rebuilding a new GOP, whatever that could possibly look like. That's actually probably his best case, lose the House, don't seek the cursed office of Speaker ever again, and rebuild his career.

His bigger problem is what happens if he retains the House and Speaker's gavel, with say, a 5-10 seat Republican bare majority, with a Democratic Senate. Then he's MegaFucked. He won't be able to do ANYTHING without Democratic support, because 60-80 of his own caucus will never agree to vote for ANYTHING except burning down the Capital building. This is probably the most likely scenario, and it'll mean hand to hand combat daily literally just to keep the government's light on.

Only slightly less likely is a small House majority, and the Republicans retain the Senate. This is the Democrats worst case scenario, because it means the Hilary Presidency is dead on arrival, and not a damn bit of her agenda will get passed in the first 4 years. Then Ryan can probably ride it out the same as he's been doing, obstructing everything, and biding his time for 2020.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


I am particularly worried about what could happen with America's strategic risotto. Can I trust his advice? Or is it just disinformation to undermine the west?

I will say this: he omitted the step of having the stock on a simmer in an adjacent pot so that, as it's incrementally added and stirred in, it doesn't lower the temperature of the risotto in progress. This is key.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


I am particularly worried about what could happen with America's strategic risotto.
I'm expecting turning over at least half of America's farmland used for rice to beet production. Borscht for America!!!
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


oh lord, the chris hayes/farenthold tape! it's so beautiful because Farenthold is such a slow man you can see all the thoughts passing behind his eyes: it's a trap, he wouldn't use such specific phrasing otherwise, what if there IS a tape of Donald saying exactly those words? there MUST be a tape, he's setting you up. careful, Blake, careful, don't say yes I would unendorse because then he'll play the tape and you'll be stuck, keep it vague until you can go call somebody

I swear to god he froze the way he did because it's such a full and real possibility that it's not a hypothetical. nice work, Chris Hayes. very nice.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [37 favorites]


> Took my little baby daughter to vote today and held her hand so we could push the VOTE button together

It'll be so nice after Hillary's sworn in and I can stop bursting into tears every few hours.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [69 favorites]


Borscht for America!!!

We got the beet / We got the beet / Yeah! / We got it! / We got the beet!
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [14 favorites]


Please don't let this break away in the home stretch give pause to anyone still sitting on Trump dirt. For the safety of our democracy, peace, and national security, the harder Trump falls the better at this point.
posted by p3t3 at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Rachel Maddow is talking about canceled fundraisers in Nebraska and New Jersey. They were canceled before the tape was leaked, there was just no interest in supporting the Trump/Pence tickets.

"Not enough people will show up at those events to give Pence money"
posted by mrzarquon at 6:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]







It'll be so nice after Hillary's sworn in and I can stop bursting into tears every few hours.


I've been wanting to tell my tears story but I thought it would sound silly. Maybe it is. When HRC stumbled getting into her car at the 9/11 memorial it broke my heart because what I saw was a woman who wanted to pay her respects no matter how badly she felt and how much she had going on. And how heartless it was that all those assholes put the focus on her "stamina" instead of the 15th anniversary of this tragedy.

I dunno, that's it.
posted by zutalors! at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [84 favorites]


I will say this: he omitted the step of having the stock on a simmer in an adjacent pot so that, as it's incrementally added and stirred in, it doesn't lower the temperature of the risotto in progress. This is key.

Typical competitive cooking: Omit an important step/ingredient so if your dish is ever compared with another, tasters say that the other is almost as good.
posted by kingless at 6:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


You Dumb Motherfuckers by James Madison [fake]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


Guiliani on stage in Panama City. "She even had to drag out Al Gore. Remember him?"

A man with delusions of relevance probably shouldn't be pressing the 'forgotten' button.
posted by Mooski at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


Did I stumble into another timeline? Where I'm from Farenthold is a beloved WaPo reporter instrumental in revealing Trump's shittiness.
posted by qcubed at 6:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [34 favorites]


Typical competitive cooking: Omit an important step/ingredient so if your dish is ever compared with another, tasters say that the other is almost as good.

It's a two-party system. You gotta make a call. This could be decisive.

Holy fuck. I'm watching the live stream. WHY.

Guliani just now: "Hillary Clinton, in a paid speech in CANADA..." socialized medicine, blah blah.

"Do you know anybody who goes to Canada for an operation?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2016


Actually, he said "Canader"
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Rock critic Robert Christgau in The Village Voice: Confessions of a Hillary Supporter: 'It's Not Like We Can Breathe Easy'
I'm a confident person, but I don't find this work easy. Sure, the commonest task is simply to make sure preselected sympathizers, most of them registered Democrats, are on our side, and then that they vote. But false hits are numerous because our lists are always dated — revising them is a key goal. Anyway, nobody likes getting unsolicited phone calls, or having a stranger knock on the door and ask questions — no wonder every form has a "Refused" box, and that a few refusers are actively hostile. On the phone or the street, the high percentage of no-answers and not-homes can get depressing. And it takes me a while to hit my groove when I do make contact — check for down-ballot support, ask enthusiasts to sign a pledge card, be sure people know their polling place.

But if this grunt work is tedious, it can also be exhilarating. Most exchanges are pro forma, but every fourth or fifth contact will require a conversation in which I impart something, learn something, or both. In Akron I remember the military man who requested email documentation debunking the anti-Kerry Swift Boat slander, the black family whose second-story abode could only be reached by ladder, the left-wing barber whose refrigerator magnet now affixes an Obama pic to my front door. In Alexandria I was moved to tell an uncommitted young white woman, "No matter what you decide, Obama's smarter" and hear her reply, "I know." In Bethlehem my wife touched a hard-up woman with a sick kid by describing our own child's healthcare saga. In Allentown a few weeks ago, I watched the phenomenally together daughter of a phenomenally friendly Spanish-speaking mom register them both a month after they'd moved down from Long Island. And whenever I sensed an opening, I told people that Hillary had been under partisan attack for decades and that almost all of it was lies.
posted by Mothlight at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


When a rift was opened in the Old Chaos the Dark Farenthold stepped through
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


FARENTHOLD.

it's just like when richard nixon's under the truthoscope and Morbo asks him if he'd steal candy from a baby and Nixon starts sweating and says "Uh, well, I, uh ... the question is-is vague. You don't say what kind of candy, whether anyone is watching or, uh... At any rate, I certainly wouldn't harm the child. "

except different because you feel pretty bad for Nixon in that situation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


Oh now Guiliani is ranting about Hils being a cheater, and how people get kicked out of West Point and the Naval Academy for that. When his candidate is a draft dodger.

why am I even watching this?
posted by mochapickle at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Aw hell I have tomorrow off, a bottle of Basil Hayden's, a little grass, keilbasa stew, and I just switched over to cnn. You people suck.
posted by vrakatar at 6:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Blake Farenthold @farenthold "Proudly serving Texas' 27th Congressional District."
David A. Farenthold, Washington Post

Yes, two starkly different people can have the same last name.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


But we're still searching for someone with the last name Trump who isn't a total waste of organic matter.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Giuliani: "[A world] where we get our planes almost shot at."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yes, two starkly different people can have the same last name.

But have you ever seen them hold the same political position at the same time?
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


'Ride of the Valkyries" now playing on the live stream.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Aw hell I have tomorrow off, a bottle of Basil Hayden's, a little grass, keilbasa stew, and I just switched over to cnn. You people suck.

I have to get up early, but I'm getting the vodka. Good thing I just had pierogies and cabbage rolls.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Did I stumble into another timeline? Where I'm from Farenthold is a beloved WaPo reporter instrumental in revealing Trump's shittiness.

Different Farentholds!!!! One is WaPo writer, other is Republican representative.
posted by annsunny at 6:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]




I get almost shot at all the time CUZ I NEVER GET SHOT AT.
posted by vrakatar at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Farenthold 10/11.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Different Farentholds!!!! One is WaPo writer, other is Republican representative.

And neither is a measure of temperature, in case you're dyslexic like me and keep reading it wrong.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oh fuck. The Donald. BRB. Need to get the vodka.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump at Panama City: "We want room, right?"

Uhhh...
posted by Devonian at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Sam Wang: "Rough draft; new data could change this. Looks like only Debate #1 moved numbers. Not the video, yet. Pundits, atone."
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2016


I called my cable company and they've had me on Farenthold for a half hour...
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump at Panama City: "We want room, right?"

Living space?
posted by dis_integration at 6:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [34 favorites]


we're still searching for someone with the last name Trump who isn't a total waste of organic matter


Donald's uncle probably qualifies (he's been dead a while, though)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2016


Trump: "The election of Hillary Clinton will lead to the destruction of our country."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


But we're still searching for someone with the last name Trump who isn't a total waste of organic matter.

It just occurred to me that, although I've never heard of a Trump who isn't related to the Cheeto, they must be out there. This must be an especially trying time for them.

#NotAllTrumps
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


You know, when you're caught off guard by a reporter asking you whether you'd support a self-admitted rapist... The only apology that makes sense is "I'm sorry I screamed FUCK NO on national tv" and not "I didn't know what to say, uh... Uh.... It was so sudden."

IMO.
posted by erratic meatsack at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump at Panama City: calls for special prosecutor, 'we must investigate Hillary Clinton, and we must investigate the investigation'
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump at Panama City: "We want room, right?"

Okay, the dude is just parodying himself now. He can't possibly be serious.
posted by Mooski at 6:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Hillary Clinton is the vessel of a corrupt global establishment that's raiding our country..."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2016


WHY CNN NOT SHOW ORANGE HULK?
posted by vrakatar at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


More living space for Florida? Surely this. [probably fake]
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:35 PM on October 11, 2016


"Hillary Clinton is the vessel of a corrupt global establishment that's raiding our country..."

I.e. Jews? He's going full Breitbart? Globalists is their dogwhistle word for that.
posted by chris24 at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


For the record: Vodka with Italian lemon soda and Campari on ice. I'm calling it the "corrupt global establishment."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [64 favorites]




CNN is going all in on Trump's history of creeping on Ivanka rn
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh thank god. Missed the spelling difference.

Am I still in the wrong timeline though? Where I'm from Trump ended his candidacy and Clinton is cruising to victory.
posted by qcubed at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The vodka is Finlandia - because they're suspicious of Putin, too.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Trump: "The election of Hillary Clinton will lead to the destruction of our country."

If Trumpism continues on its present course following Clinton's election victory, this prediction could be true.
posted by The World Famous at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2016


It just occurred to me that, although I've never heard of a Trump who isn't related to the Cheeto, they must be out there. This must be an especially trying time for them.

There's another bloke out there named Donald Trump. I heard him on some NPR program. I think he's a doctor in Florida or somewhere.
posted by hoyland at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


My father had a cancer doctor at Roswell Park Medical Center in Rochester, NY named Donald Trump. No shit.
posted by xyzzy at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Go Egg! Way to plant!
posted by mmoncur at 6:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


Matthew Yglesias: My guess is that in a Trump administration angry mobs will beat and murder Jews and people of color with impunity.
posted by EarBucket at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house.



Corb, I'm sorry this was done to your family. I don't know what political party you plan to align with if the GOP goes full alt right. I get what you are saying about the Sandinistas--my grandfather spent WW2 in the USSR and while he was a lifelong socialist and labor activist, he had a hair trigger for anyone defending communism because he'd seen what it looked like in all its murderous ugliness, and could not handle people wanting to defend it ideologically without engaging with its realities. And I really hope none of this will come across as condescending, because I have a huge well of respect for you and know reading your posts that you're more politically informed and engaged than I am. What I can say, though, about the fear of leftist revolution, is that the USA is so deeply, entrenchedly capitalist a country that every leftist I know, for generations, have never believed it could happen-- have resigned themselves to fighting a lifelong battle for tiny gains like minimum wage increases or worker's rights, not a violent revolution. It's not on the agenda for the furthest left people I know and it would be unimaginable for the more center-left or just centrist people in the Democratic Party.

The USA's ability to redistribute wealth, as a country and as a culture, is so weak,and unenforceable, so low down the list of cutural priorities and possibilities, that we have a presidential candidate bragging on air about how he is a billionaire who has not paid any federal income tax in decades. After Trump dropped the "That would make me smart" bomb in the first debate, discussion was flooded with talk about how of course he wasn't doing anything illegal; all people in those income brackets manage to find legal loopholes in the exact same way.

I feel like hypercapitalism is just so deeply entrenched in both the USA's culture and its power structure that even open socialists like Sanders don't have very high hopes for how much they can actually do in terms of wealth redistribution or even forcing large corporations and banks to abide by our existing laws. The entitites who are taking away houses in this country aren't socialist, they are predatory banks who haven't been punished for their crimes because even the most socialist-leaning administration in decades can't go up against that kind of financial might. I know everyone was saying the same thing about Trump early in his candidacy-- that he was impossible, unthinkable, "it can't happen here"-- but even then, at the very beginning, people were pointing out that every insane, fascist, racist, ethnic cleansing proposal he made had a long history of being the status quo here; were things that existed in living memory like the internment camps George Takei spent time in as a child.

The US is a country with a long, bloody history of right-wing violence, both military and financial, against women, against people of color, against indigenous people-- but never, in our entire history, against the wealthy classes-- there's almost a cultural taboo against it. A lot of the underlying terror of Trump and his supporters comes from that history. It comes from the generational knowledge that the cultural impulse towards lynching, genocide and resettlement, denial of women's agency, women's clinic bombers, slavery or brutal dickensian working conditions, a major civil war fought over the right to own people of color as chattel whose flag modern day right wingers still proudly fly, that is what is lurking inside the culture of this country. That is the form that authoritarian and revanchist violence in the United States takes. There isn't a history of Maoist or Stalinist purges here-- when that kind of ugliness raises its head it historically doesn't get channeled through the political left. Instead, like the Bush/Gore election, the left is often standing around helplessly, not wanting to break the law or turn to violence, not knowing what to do when the extremists among their political opponents don't follow the same rules.

IDK. The last thing I want to do is lecture someone who I feel is a constant voice of wisdom on this board and who is ultimately more politically active than I am, and I hope this isn't disrespectful. But I don't think that kind of violence from the left is something that is historically or currently a possibility here.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [141 favorites]


There's one or two other Donald Trumps. David A. Farenthold of the Washington Post (to be clear!) ran into them when he was trying to find evidence of DJT's recent charitable giving. Of which there is none, but whatever.
posted by dismas at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I disagree with Egg on a lot of things, but at the very least he seems like a worthy opponent.
posted by pxe2000 at 6:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]


"Two boxes of email were missing."

Boxes?
posted by chris24 at 6:40 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


"Two boxes of emails and information were missing. They're gone."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Hillary Clinton is the vessel of a corrupt global establishment that's raiding our country..."

No, no, no: The pellet with the poison's in the chalice from the palace; the vessel with the pestle holds the brew that is true.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [31 favorites]


He's now talking about how the Clintons "ripped off Haiti."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:41 PM on October 11, 2016


Trump just referenced 'two boxes of emails' that went missing.

Perhaps the boxes weren't strong enough, and the emails fell through the bottom?
posted by Devonian at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


Now he's saying the Clintons attacked Catholics? And then moves on without explaining.

And again saying Clinton should have her Secret Service give up their guns.
posted by chris24 at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2016


Re: Clinton and law enforcement. "By the way, these are weapon-carrying people. They carry weapons." Repeats the assertion that HRC's security detail should be disarmed.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2016


Tis like he reads the headlines and mentions whatever he sees, hence Haiti.
posted by vrakatar at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


More living space for Florida? Surely this. [probably fake]

If so, he'd better put a decent plan together to combat sea rise, since Florida's quickly becoming 'the Caribbean Atolls Formerly Known As Florida'. Unless it's coral lebensraum we're aiming for
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


"Two boxes of email were missing."

Bill packed them up in a big truck and sent them down the tubes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Trump at Panama City: "We want room, right?"
Because his pro-Global Warming policies are going to shrink the state of Florida by at least 50%...

Trump: "The election of Hillary Clinton will lead to the destruction of our country."
Not the first time he has promised to do to America what he did to Atlantic City.

"Hillary Clinton is the vessel of a corrupt global establishment that's raiding our country..."
And NOTHING makes him more jealous...
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


It just occurred to me that, although I've never heard of a Trump who isn't related to the Cheeto, they must be out there.

Not if Donald has anything to say about it.

Actually, there's a Coast Guard cutter that's named after a highly decorated Coast Guard sailor who participated in the Normandy landings, so at least the greater Trump universe has that.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"Pat Buchanan said it [mine] was the greatest performance of presidential debates."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Let's hope it boils down winning on Nov 8. Or else I've wasted my time.

Single greatest waste of time and money."
posted by chris24 at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Two boxes of email were missing."

Yes, the inbox and the sent box.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Perhaps the boxes weren't strong enough, and the emails fell through the bottom?

Typically Clinton uses baskets to collect her emails for later deletion / bleaching but they were all being used to corral deplorables that particular day [fake]
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


"If I don't win, it will be the single greatest waste of time, energy and money."

"What we've done has never been duplicated in American history."

"The media's rigged, let me tell ya."

"The only thing she has going is the rigged media."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Bernie's deal with devil again.
posted by chris24 at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2016


Gawd, this record is tired. I'm only holding on for the shackles to come off.
posted by Devonian at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Trump again on "what a waste" of money and time it will be if he loses.

Not that it will be a loss for policy, for security, for the priorities of his voters. A waste of money.
posted by mochapickle at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


"Bernie made a deal with the devil...he sold out. Very, very bad."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:45 PM on October 11, 2016


Seriously where can I see this on cable, or a stream? I am morbid.
posted by vrakatar at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2016


"We're gonna have unbelievable trade deals. [...] To the Bernie Sanders people, he was right. You're being sold out."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:46 PM on October 11, 2016


So, in an odd turn of South Dakotan events, Sen John Thune and Gov Dennis Daugaard both denounced Trump after the tapes were released, but Rep. Kristi Noem has reiterated her support. Thune's been on a swingset between rational and wackjob for a number of years now, so a moment of reason isn't that odd, and Daugaard is both wrong about things and a coward all at the same time, so of course he bailed, but I don't get why Noem is sticking in there. The Christian women who were her strongest supporters are not happy with Trump right now.
posted by neonrev at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


He just said Hillary wants to cut Social Security and Medicare. A vote for him is a vote to protect them.
posted by chris24 at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Stream here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2016


You know, I'm genuinely surprised that he hasn't accidentally cited an Onion or Clickhole article as fact. God knows I've been momentarily taken in by them even before the parody-outstripping century that is 2016.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


"To the Bernie Sanders people, he was right. You're being sold out."

This is my #1 favorite Donald delusion -- that he's going to pick up some Bernie voters.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


My Bubbarother asked me about the one world government today. I told him we are one universe, one galaxy, one solar system, and one very special world, that we all have to protect. We have to protect those at the bottom so they can live at all. He is smart, but bought in to the one world order stuff. People can never see the real enemy is themselves. Well, and other things. I think that Hillary's private server, kept her stuff safer, and it is one reason, we got bin Laden. I think most stuff is hacked and people talk, they just can't avoid it, and then a lot of loose talk is listened to, because the people who might drop something important, are the subject of surveillance, by state actors. So that is what I think about the private server. There was one less chance of that leak.
posted by Oyéah at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ugh. I'm watching the Giants/Cubs game -- it's very rare that I watch live TV, so I haven't seen many campaign ads -- and I just caught the final shot of a Trump commercial. (He's spending ad money in CA? Huh.)

The title card over the picture of him and his kids said "Defend your rights. Vote for Donald Trump."

I have the TV muted, so I'm not sure exactly what rights they're advocating I defend. My rights as a woman? (No Donald.) My rights as a person with a uterus? (No.) My rights as a member of the LGBTQ community? (Are you fucking kidding me?)

I guess I can't complain about the ad wholesale since I only saw that single slogan and didn't hear any of the rest of it, but what bunch of delusional loons created a spot like that is basically the political equivalent of Betteridge's law of headlines?
posted by mudpuppie at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


David A. Farenthold of the Washington Post (to be clear!)

David A. Fahrenthold! With an H, as in, "HRC is going to owe David A. Fahrenthold of the Washington Post an absolutely massive beer when this is all over".

As opposed to Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-TX), with no H, as in "no way in Hell that Rep. Blake Farenthold (R-TX) comes out of this looking good".
posted by saturday_morning at 6:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [40 favorites]


"The dishonesty of the New York Times is unbelievable. The dishonesty of the Washington Post is unbelievable. Those cameras back there."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Oh, god- are we still doing this?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump's proxies' Beyoncé related idiocy shows again that the right’s favorite mode of discourse is false equivalency.
posted by signal at 6:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


"The media can't report on the establishment because the media is the establishment."

"We're gonna beat the system."

"I didn't need to do this. Folks."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2016


This is my #1 favorite Donald delusion -- that he's going to pick up some Bernie voters.

The ones that can't stomach voting for a woman, yes.

May they forever need viagra.
posted by Mooski at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


saturday morning: that's what I get from copy/pasting from earlier in the thread! poor David Fahrenholhd.
posted by dismas at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh, god- are we still doing this?

Yeah why are we live commenting and watching (for that matter) a Trump rally? Just let him rant, unshackled, and the media will pick up whatever unhinged barbarism he spouts for you. It can't be good for your blood pressure to watch him.
posted by dis_integration at 6:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


So I was looking for recent info on the NC flooding on Twitter, and I found this tweet. It is the saddest thing. The idea that that man gives a single damn about the people that make up his crowds. It's tragic.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Y'all are right. I just turned it off and it feels good.
posted by mochapickle at 6:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Ha, "don't let the water out of Lake Okeechobee and we won't have droughts."
posted by chris24 at 6:53 PM on October 11, 2016


Question for u guys that's been bugging me for months, why are people calling Trump's people "surrogates" or "proxies" rather than "campaign staff"?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 6:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


This is the internet version of white knuckle fever. It has everyone rapt. We are waiting for the revelation that brings it all down, but the current revelations are horrific, as Trump advocates violent overthrow of our government, if he doesn't have his way with this election, (rhymes with another popular word.) We are witnessing a massive tantrum, disguised as campaigning. I don't see how he can go on at this pace, that is my only hope.
posted by Oyéah at 6:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


I got a stream open, thanks! He's really gonzo.
posted by vrakatar at 6:53 PM on October 11, 2016


In response to Matt Yngleisias' tweet:
@DouthatNYT @jbouie My guess is that in a Trump administration angry mobs will beat and murder Jews and people of color with impunity.

Douthat responds: "Nor do I want to find out, and every Jewish conservative I know spent the primary season so besieged.... But I respect your concerns and I would undoubtedly feel this more intensely if Catholics were the target ..."

I am at a loss for words.
posted by Freen at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Trump's people "surrogates" or "proxies" rather than "campaign staff"

People who are not actual paid employees of the campaign, like Christie, Giuliani, etc. are traditionally called surrogates.
posted by chris24 at 6:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


It can't be good for your blood pressure to watch him.

Oh, so today in the world of eyeglass making, a patient was not having a good time with their prescription, and we couldn't figure it out until it came out that she was having diabetes issues, which was causing blood pressure fluctuations that made her necessary prescription differ from the current state of her eyes on pickup.

So yeah, if you start seeing blurry and getting tense, take a break. It turns out your blood pressure can mess with your vision. Take care of yourselves, everybody. I love you all and we have much more work to do once this election is over.
posted by neonrev at 6:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


Question for u guys that's been bugging me for months, why are people calling Trump's people "surrogates" or "proxies" rather than "campaign staff"?

I do it because surrogate has a different meaning than campaign staff, and I'm referring to a surrogate.
posted by diogenes at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah why are we live commenting and watching (for that matter) a Trump rally? Just let him rant, unshackled, and the media will pick up whatever unhinged barbarism he spouts for you. It can't be good for your blood pressure to watch him.

Yes, I wish there wasn't even going to be a third debate. Why bother? It's not as if he's going to have learned anything, or have any new facets of his temperament to display. With a generic Republican you can at least consider his arguments, but this is a hideous charade.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Trump's performance feels perfunctory. He's doing his best but his energy is leaden, like a man marching to defeat. He's just running through his greatest hits one by one and tossing them aside as he gets bored with them.
posted by EarBucket at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trump again on 'what a waste' of money and time it will be if he loses.

That's true. He's wasting everyone's time and a lot of his money.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


>this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution

It's okay to take the skepticism quotes off of 'fair share'. We live in a country where Donald Trump, a billionaire, pays no taxes. Maintenance of the country's roads, bridges, libraries, schools, fire departments, etc., etc., is left to the working poor. And when there's holes in the road and the library's closed because there's no funding, Trump's (disputable) party offers this as evidence that Government Doesn't Work, and offers as a solution the idea that we should privatize it all. Defending America against a Communist takeover is the Maginot Line of modern ideologies. The plutocrats are implementing corporate feudalism while the patriots of the Right keep a vigilant watch, pointed 180 degrees in the wrong direction.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 6:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [81 favorites]


He just jumps around from topic to topic, sounds angry, demands agreement, it sounds like he expects the editors to just grab chunks and edit it down so it sounds like a narrative.
posted by vrakatar at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2016


"If I don't win, it will be the single greatest waste of time, energy and money."

If he were to win it would only be the second biggest waste, after his administration.
posted by ckape at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Borscht for America!!!

Where's the beet?
posted by octobersurprise at 6:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Watching this stream is distracting with the "comments" flying by, obviously written by quarter wits. There are 11,521 people watching. I'm subtracting one. What a fucking wanker.... And how did this country get to this situation?
posted by njohnson23 at 7:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Update from an idea I posted in the last thread:

I looked into the Trump Truck giveaway, and decided to read the rules and regs very VERY carefully, and that is how I learned that the truck they are giving away is actually a used '87 Chevy pickup. I'm having serious second thoughts about entering this because I'd hate to spin that into a donation and end up with it being a problem becuase it's a piece of shit. I'm sleeping on it.

This happened. Obama responds to Alex Jones saying he and Hillary are literal demons who smell like sulfur. Then he sniffs himself

I so want him to pull a full-on Luther, the Anger Translator riff here.

To troll the whiny Trumpkins, HRC should say she loves Azealia Banks

Or Peaches.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Lawrence O'Donnell has an Apprentice crew member tonight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2016


Trump just told the crowd to go register and get out the vote on November 28. [real]
posted by gatorae at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [101 favorites]


"You know, in Canada...when people with some money want an operation they come here. So slow. And it doesn't work."

"You will have health savings accounts." You'll be able to afford the best health care ever, etc.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ha. Ha. Trump told his crowd in Florida to get out and vote on November 28th.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [36 favorites]


That little counterfactual where CNN was around in the 19th century and falsely reported that Abraham Lincoln lost the election was weird.
posted by EarBucket at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2016


"I will be the greatest jobs president that God ever created."

Greatest hits time.
posted by chris24 at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I will be the best jobs president that GOD [emphasis his] ever created, believe me."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, he's throwing out the same old same old, interspersed with Wikileaks. Usual weaving all over the place - not sure how we got from healthcare to the Late Great Abraham Lincoln in about three lettuce leaves of word salad, but we did. But it's pretty low energy. Perhaps he'll pick up when he gets onto the fresher meat of his treacherous party.
posted by Devonian at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2016


"The dishonesty of the New York Times is unbelievable."
Actually, that one I partially agree with. The New York Times used to very dishonestly promote Trump as a "local character/real estate developer".
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I 1000% support this plan to have his voters wait until the 28th.
posted by EatTheWeak at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [65 favorites]


I've got the stream on audio only, and wow he sounds nuts. Baseline nuts no politics filter.
posted by vrakatar at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


He's created a lot of jobs at Doral, Mar-a-Lago, etc.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:03 PM on October 11, 2016


Now he's saying the Clintons attacked Catholics? And then moves on without explaining.

The relevant e-mail I think - not the Clintons per se.

Think tank guy John Halpin mentions Rupert Murdoch and Robert Thompson raising their children Catholic. Describes either Catholicism in general or traditional Catholicism as a "bastardization of the faith." Sounds typical of Protestant anti-Catholic opinion, though I didn't find his own religion. Jennifer Palmieri, now comms director for HRC, responds that Catholicism "is the most socially acceptable politically conservative religion."
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I watched like 15 seconds, and decided to come here. Trump's ideas are like a teen year old story, where the middle gets left out and ends with everything is great if we do it my way.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Perhaps he'll pick up when he gets onto the fresher meat of his treacherous party.

Yeah, I'm watching in the hope of some GOP attacks.
posted by chris24 at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2016


I looked into the Trump Truck giveaway, and decided to read the rules and regs very VERY carefully, and that is how I learned that the truck they are giving away is actually a used '87 Chevy pickup

Is there a better working metaphor for voting for Trump?
posted by Countess Elena at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]


re: NAFTA "They get the cash, they get the businesses - we get drugs."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2016


Holy fuck he just threatened to pull his jobs out of FLA if he loses the state.
posted by vrakatar at 7:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


Saying again he's going to terminate NAFTA.
posted by chris24 at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2016


Then with the closure of the casino, and the revelations that his Scottish properties are tanking, you have to wonder if he is actually a billionaire, and is this all in hope to open a Russian market thinking those long abused people are going to fall for a con artist like Trump?
posted by Oyéah at 7:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


He just jumps around from topic to topic

So that no one had a chance to interrupt?
posted by uncleozzy at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"She's crooked as a three dollar bill. I used to say two-dollar bills. But now they make two-dollar bills."

Bzzt. Wrong. Not new.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Isn't it illegal for an employer to tell people he will fire them if they don't vote a certian way?
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Trump on Hillary: "She's crooked as a 3-dollar bill. I used to say 2-dollar bill, but they make those now."

Not only is that such a weird thing to say, MAN he is old. The modern $2 started in 1976.
posted by Room 101 at 7:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]


Maybe Trump will do a Depardieu and move to Moscow for tax reasons?
posted by njohnson23 at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


He's about to justify his stalking.

Spoiler alert: it was her fault. She got in his space.
posted by vverse23 at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2016


Now saying she's a liar for saying he entered his space. Like we didn't see it all.
posted by chris24 at 7:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"By cheering. Who did better in the debate?"

"Hey wait, wait, wait. Did you see where she said I entered her space?"

Holy shit. He sounds like Frank Pentangeli.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Isn't it illegal for an employer to tell people he will fire them if they don't vote a certian way?

Yep. But it doesn't seem to matter.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me

Respectfully, if this scares you, it's because you're allowing yourself to be frightened by hyperbolic rhetoric as opposed to actual policy proposals. The ultra-rich in this country are liked spoiled children who are so used to getting their way, even the mildest of "no" responses to their every whim is responded to with "OMG COMMUNISM THIS COUNTRY IS FALLING APART KLEPTOCRACY KLEPTOCRACY GRARGRARGRAR". Meanwhile, no tax cut for the rich is ever unwarranted.

This attitude has led to where we are today, where even relatively generous tax proposals are seen as an unbelievable affront to the rich (and of course, to the poor who the rich have suckered into believing these taxes would ever apply to them -- see the old saw about americans all believing they're just temporarily embarassed millionaires).

At some point, when you look around and see the kinds of wealth concentration going on like it is in this country, you have to accept that maybe the problem is in fact that we don't tax the rich enough.
posted by tocts at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [75 favorites]


It was her fault, her face got in the way of his hand.
posted by Oyéah at 7:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The claim that she invaded his space is so bizarre. He knows the whole thing was on the teevee, right?
posted by diogenes at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


"If you asked Lyin' Paul Ryan or Crooked Hillary if the election is November 28th, they'd say it isn't, that's how desperate they are!" [fake]
posted by ckape at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2016


I don't know if anyone's linked to the 30 Days 30 Songs project against Trump. Songs by people like Death Cab for Cutie and today's, by Aimee Mann.
posted by emjaybee at 7:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


>Trump just told the crowd to go register and get out the vote on November 28. [real]

That would make it a really black friday.
posted by Catblack at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Saying in 4 years he'll win the black and hispanic vote.
posted by chris24 at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2016


"I say to African Americans suffering in our inner cities: What do you have to lose? Vote for Donald Trump."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:11 PM on October 11, 2016


"We're gonna have safe inner cities instead of these horrible horrible death traps."
posted by chris24 at 7:12 PM on October 11, 2016


Here's a fun little shirt a friend posted on FB.
posted by notsnot at 7:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


"She's a bad, bad person. Remember that. I will fight for you harder than anyone."

He'll fix the inner cities.

How?

"Disadvantaged children will be able to send their children to the school of their choice."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


November 28th is the first day of the Trump University Trial. Hard to keep these important dates straight.
posted by Freen at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [87 favorites]


Describes either Catholicism in general or traditional Catholicism as a "bastardization of the faith." Sounds typical of Protestant anti-Catholic opinion, though I didn't find his own religion.

He's referring to conservative Catholicism as "a bastardisation of the faith" (Catholic Christianity); the reference to Christian democracy makes that pretty clear.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


"We're going to protect internet freedom. You see how they want the internet run by the world?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"You have 28 days to make every dream you ever dreamed for your country to come true."

O.k., Tony Robbins.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Silver Fox, Anderson Cooper, shuts up Kellyanne Conway for at least a few seconds by making her look stupid.

The look on his face. Just. "CNN sucks hey? Well fuck you lady."
posted by Talez at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


"And how did this country get to this situation?"

A bunch of European countries said, "Hey, let's send our religious fanatics, criminals, and impoverished strivers to a different continent and see what happens!" THIS HAPPENED. Europe's always all "Oh we're a rationalist continent without fanatics" and I'm all "YES YOU SHIPPED THEM ABROAD."

"That little counterfactual where CNN was around in the 19th century and falsely reported that Abraham Lincoln lost the election was weird."

The Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum in Springfield, Ill., has a really great exhibit where (NBC's) Tim Russert is reporting on the 1860 election as if it were a post-2000 election and there's a crawl and everything where it's like "Louis Pasteur claims "microscopic organisms" cause disease," "Pony Express makes first delivery in record-breaking 10 days" and so on.

It is a great exhibit but possibly Trump got confused.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [60 favorites]


Going to appoint Supreme Court judges who'll uphold the Constitution. Which will play merry hell with all the unconstitutional things he's promised.

He's just going through the motions now.
posted by Devonian at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty sure trump had a weird salad order of I'm going to do (verb) because ( noun ) freedom.

Mad lib away.

We need trump mad libs.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


"We will build the wall. And we will stop drugs from pouring in."

"We will build the wall - ok folks, are you ready - who's going to pay for the wall?"

Crowd: Mexico!
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:18 PM on October 11, 2016


The hell with the rallies. Bye, felipe.
posted by vrakatar at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


"One people under one god saluting one American flag."
posted by chris24 at 7:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Does he not realize "america first" is taken?
posted by vrakatar at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Fin
posted by chris24 at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Also, don't know if was posted in old thread, but NARAL had a FB meme that as of today, we only have one menstrual cycle till the election!

We're all gonna get more bloated, achy, and prone to mood swings in the next few weeks, ya'll. Stock up on chocolate, heating pads and pain relievers. Perform self-care. Take long showers. Scream into pillows. Whatever it takes to get you through.
posted by emjaybee at 7:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [37 favorites]


From way upthread, in response to corb -

It's not on the agenda for the furthest left people I know and it would be unimaginable for the more center-left or just centrist people in the Democratic Party.

"It" being aggressive economic wealth distribution, I am assuming. Because I have heard super-left people espousing this very thing; I went to a protest after the death of Philando Castille in the summer and a couple of the speakers they had there busted out full-on anarchist "tear down the system" views.

Although to redirect back to the original point (that this was rare) - in this system, it is rare. Rare to the point of being nigh-impossible to pull off, and that's on top of it being generally hard to pull off anyway. It is just plain human-nature-level hard to share, it is hard to counter that baser human instict towards greed; that's why they spend so much time talking about sharing on Sesame Street. And that is also why we call the government in to create tax codes in the first place, because leaving it up to the individual to willingly contribute the amount they see fit would leave us with practically nothing, because even with the tax codes we got, we have everyone gaming the system to keep as much money as they can.

So even though you may come across a person or two who does espouse a whole anarchic society here and there, they would have to combat not only capitalism, but human nature itself, which I have always seen as being a profoundly unlikely turn of events.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Trump's done. Just before the audio on the live stream cut out, there was a half second of "You Can't Always Get What You Want."

It's a perplexing song choice.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2016


Well, poo on you, Trump. That was the weakest rally you've served up in ages. Shackles off?

Guy always promises, promises, promises and lies, lies, lies.
posted by Devonian at 7:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


"We will build the wall. And we will stop drugs from pouring in."

I live in Delaware County, Indiana. Meth production captital of the state, and one of the top producers in the nation. Is this where the wall will be? I'd like to know so I can move out before the bricks start being laid.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Holy fuck he just threatened to pull his jobs out of FLA if he loses the state.

If/when Trump loses, I'll be happy to watch him insult his supporters all night in lieu of a concession speech.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


Yeah, a pretty by-the-numbers, going-through-the-motions speech (though my wife hadn't seen a rally in its entirety before and was horrified.) No attacking Ryan or McCain. Sad.
posted by chris24 at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2016


"I get the biggest audiences in the world for a man without a guitar"

Yeah, nope.
posted by Devonian at 7:24 PM on October 11, 2016


If/when Trump loses, I'll be happy to watch him insult his supporters all night in lieu of a concession speech.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:23 PM on October 11


A November suprise!
posted by vrakatar at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]




I looked into the Trump Truck giveaway, and decided to read the rules and regs very VERY carefully, and that is how I learned that the truck they are giving away is actually a used '87 Chevy pickup. I'm having serious second thoughts about entering this because I'd hate to spin that into a donation and end up with it being a problem becuase it's a piece of shit. I'm sleeping on it.

I thought that it was the shitty older one, not the giant people-plow one that looks like a late model. What are the taxes on a 29 year old truck, like $200? It'd be worth that much to video it going into a car crusher and putting it on YouTube.

But I'm not sure Id donate it to someone who might need to actually rely upon it working.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


"I get the biggest audiences in the world for a man without a guitar"

Yeah, nope.


I feel like Kevin Hart has topped this by now.
posted by dis_integration at 7:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Paul Ryan with those PX-90 honed byceps getting his ass whooped by an obese orange septegenarian. All his tough talk over the years and he's having his ass handed to him by the playground bully. Then we get to watch Hillary the coolest girl in school beat the shit out of that same orange bully. Don't tell me that this isn't a little fun.
posted by humanfont at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


You think if Paul asks nicely she'll teach him how to shimmy?
posted by cmfletcher at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Don't tell me that this isn't a little fun.

Ask me again on November 9. Right now, a brush with American facism doesn't do good things for me.
posted by Mooski at 7:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]




San Antonio TX police showing up in uniform to greet Trump on the tarmac wearing MAGA hats.

*shudder*


It's not hyperbole to say this is what fascism looks like.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:33 PM on October 11, 2016 [207 favorites]


Trump told his rally to come out and vote November 28th. November 28th is when the Trump University trial is scheduled to start.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


That seems like something public servants shouldn't be allowed to do (in government uniform, anyway).
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [52 favorites]


NYT: Split Over Donald Trump Threatens to Tilt Republican States

"Mrs. Clinton’s campaign has concluded that at least two traditionally Republican states, Georgia and Arizona, are realistic targets for her campaign to win over. And Republican polling has found that Mr. Trump is at dire risk of losing Georgia, according to people briefed on the polls, who spoke on the condition of anonymity." (my bold)
posted by chris24 at 7:35 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


xyzzy, I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that your dad's doctor donated to charity, as per Fahrenthold.
posted by Yowser at 7:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anyone know what this is about? Another Trump tax leak - 2013 Federal taxes this time - but favourable to the man. I can't find anything else about it, nor what it'd be doing tucked away in the unclassified bits of the Baltimore Gazette.
posted by Devonian at 7:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Charlie Sykes on Lawrence O'Donnell: "The campaign's gone full Breitbart" and "about to go full Alex Jones".
posted by Talez at 7:38 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


The Baltimore Gazette is not a real publication.
posted by edeezy at 7:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Oh, naw, man, you never go the full Alex Jones.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


You think if Paul asks nicely she'll teach him how to shimmy?

"I wish I could shimmy like my sister colleague Kate Hillary."
posted by octobersurprise at 7:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


The USA's ability to redistribute wealth, as a country and as a culture, is so weak,and unenforceable

Except it does, in ways that aren't typically considered redistributive: the "white enough" city-dwellers who wanted suburban houses in the 50s got mortgages and tax deductions while their taxes paid for the highways allowing them to commute, highways that were typically built through "low value" black urban neighbourhoods.

More broadly, this is a reflection on low-trust / high-trust societies. Many immigrants who come from low-trust societies are relieved to find themselves in a higher-trust society where they don't (generally) have to bribe officials to keep their businesses running, or fear expropriation, or need the right friends to get crimes investigated. But the US also contains large pockets of low-trust society, which isn't helped when cops wear red hats to greet Trump.
posted by holgate at 7:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [40 favorites]


At least Wikipedia says.
posted by edeezy at 7:40 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


At least Wikipedia says.

Baltimore Gazette is definitely a fake news source.
posted by dis_integration at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Except it does, in ways that aren't typically considered redistributive: the "white enough" city-dwellers who wanted suburban houses in the 50s got mortgages and tax deductions while their taxes paid for the highways allowing them to commute, highways that were typically built through "low value" black urban neighbourhoods.

White flight was one of the country's biggest stealth wealth redistributions from the poor to the middle class ever. They looked at decades of debt and obligations, wholly pulled up stakes, and founded a new city with a clean slate a few miles down the road without any debt or obligations. They saddled those debts and obligations with the poor black people that remained. Now that they've started to clean up that shit sandwich by cities declaring bankruptcy or just flat out renegotiating benefits post-facto, whites are coming back in to "gentrify" the place.

White people got a massive fucking wealth break on that one even if they didn't realize it at the time.
posted by Talez at 7:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [70 favorites]


So it's like The Onion for non-humorous right-wing wish-fulfillment fake news?
posted by prize bull octorok at 7:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Bizarre. It was definitely fake, but I couldn't work out what it was pretending to be.
posted by Devonian at 7:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


chris24: ""We're gonna have safe inner cities instead of these horrible horrible death traps.""

His audience for that shit is really the white people who haven't set foot in a city other than to go to a football game in forty years. All they know about the city that they live near is what they see on the 11 local newscast.
posted by octothorpe at 7:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [15 favorites]


Ten minutes without a comment? Did Trump quit?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am super fired up! Just got home from a GOTV planning meeting for these next few weeks. Early voting begins tomorrow in Arizona, through November 4th.

This is going to be amazing.
posted by Superplin at 7:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [36 favorites]


So Trump's entire campaign plan right now is to make him seen so fucking insane that Democrats think they've won and won't bother voting.
posted by Talez at 7:56 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


So it's like The Onion for non-humorous right-wing wish-fulfillment fake news?

It's like an Onion for people who just write fake stories that aren't funny. They got me a couple weeks ago with a story about the DEA recanting the insane classification of Kratom as a schedule I substance. I was excited because a good friend of ours relies on it for pain control, and uses it now in place of what she used before, which was a metric shitload of opiate painkillers. She's distraught about having to go back to being in a daze and liver function tests for the rest of her life, and those shitwhistles at the Baltimore Gazette thought it'd be a funny story to write up that the DEA had postponed the decision. That's some satire, I'm sure The Onion is worried about their market share.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


There's a bunch of sites now that exist only to publish outrageous clickbait stuff and they don't even bother to make it really amusing or whatever--they're there just to get ad dollars from whatever people share without reading or only skim and don't pay attention. Also the source of a lot of stories about very-much-living celebrities having recently died.
posted by Sequence at 7:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]




The URL for the website was registered in July 2015 through Domains By Proxy, a company started by GoDaddy.com founder Bob Parsons that keeps owner information marked private. An email inquiry to the totally legit-sounding BALTIMOREGAZETTE.COM@domainsbyproxy.com was not immediately returned.

Full bit.
posted by vrakatar at 7:58 PM on October 11, 2016


He's been using this song at his rallies for months. It is indeed perplexing, but it's not new.

Oh yeah. It was the final song (IIRC) played at the RNC.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not on the agenda for the furthest left people I know and it would be unimaginable for the more center-left or just centrist people in the Democratic Party.

"It" being aggressive economic wealth distribution, I am assuming. Because I have heard super-left people espousing this very thing; I went to a protest after the death of Philando Castille in the summer and a couple of the speakers they had there busted out full-on anarchist "tear down the system" views.


I mean, yeah. I have run in anarchist activist circles as well, mostly because they were the people who were doing the on the ground work that felt important (defending sex workers, harm reduction) and I still maintain that an actual left wing revolution is not on anyone's agenda, even the people yelling "smash the state" or whatever. For a lot of people in this country, the idea of "the revolution" is basically a secular spiritual concept, a time when society has evolved in the way Empress is talking about, when people learn to fucking share and treat each other decently. There's a huge disconnect between that concept and what an actual, IRL, real revolution is. I say that a revolution is not really on anyone's agenda because nobody is working towards that goal: when you look at the actual activism of these smash the state anarchists, at least in my experience, it's all incredibly anti-violent community-oriented stuff like "volunteer at the local free/homeless clinic" or staffing crisis lines or domestic violence shelters or building community gardens. Nobody in these groups or social circles are out there planning or working towards for an actual armed left wing or anarchist overthrow of the government.

And unlike the Trump supporters who are like, ladies who keep food banks running in their real lives, people who also have that weird paradox of violent political rhetoric coupled with the most nurturing and nonviolent community activism, there are no political candidates or programs that anarchists might be voting for who might put "the revolution" into real political play in the way a Trump or Ryan would get voted into office and try to put more Muslims into internment camps or take down Roe V Wade. FWIW, the general wisdom among people who participated in the Occupy movement was that people who really were making a big deal of trying to stir up violence, building bombs, whatever (this really happened in Boston-- scary shit), were likely to be, and often were revealed to be, government plants.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [16 favorites]


So as a white, XY person who doesn't open carry and who won't loom menacingly at PoC, can I show up at the polls and, like, counter-balance the Trumpist poll-watchers with a big smile and a friendly wave? Are there rules about this? Would a "Vote your conscience, ignore the thugs next to me" sign be cool?

Is there anything I can legally do to offset these people, if they show up at my polling place?
posted by wenestvedt at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


The San Antonio police brazenly wearing Trump hats while on duty, coupled with Trump's increasingly insistent demands that his supporters intimidate black voters at the polls, is truly terrifying. His "Law and Order" rhetoric was always scary and gross, but this stupid hat incident seems like a clear sign that the marriage of police & Trump is now being openly flaunted. It is extremely intimidating.
posted by gatorae at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [91 favorites]


Is there anything I can legally do to offset these people, if they show up at my polling place?

Sign up for poll watching and keep the National Lawyers Guild on speeddial.
posted by Talez at 8:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


Isn't it illegal for an employer to tell people he will fire them if they don't vote a certian way?

Yep. But it doesn't seem to matter.
“I’m not bragging, I’m just stating the fact: I personally got George W. Bush elected,” Siegel told me during two days of interviews. “I’m not proud of it. I feel like I’m responsible for all the problems in the world.” By that he meant, mostly, the then-deteriorating situation in Iraq.

Here’s Siegel’s account of how he swung the election in Bush’s favor: “Whenever I saw a negative article about [Al] Gore, I put it in with the paychecks of my 8,000 employees. I had my managers do a survey on every employee. If they liked Bush, we made them register to vote. But not if they liked Gore. The week before [the election] we made 80,000 phone calls through my call center—they were robo-calls. On Election Day, we made sure everyone who was voting for Bush got to the polls. I didn’t know he would win by 527 votes. Afterward, we did a survey among the employees to find out who voted who wouldn’t have otherwise. One thousand of them said so.”
Holy shit.
posted by cashman at 8:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [77 favorites]


So I totally love John Oliver and Stephen Colbert and Trevor Noah and all the rest of them, but I have to say that I am so, so glad that we have Sam Bee to speak out for us. All the discussion of misogyny in our culture, combined with the low-level sexism I have to deal with literally every single day really starts to get to me sometimes and now is one of those times. Having people like Sam Bee and Hillary Clinton and Gloria Steinem (who I saw speak the other night at an event) stand out there front and center and shout back against it, when the best I can do is curl up under my covers in bed because I get so overwhelmed by it all, means the world to me. They are my real-life heroes. I wish we had more of them.

(Sam Bee is once again on fire tonight on Full Frontal. I'd definitely recommend watching if you can.)
posted by triggerfinger at 8:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [62 favorites]


there was a half second of "You Can't Always Get What You Want."

It's a perplexing song choice.


♪♫ But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game ♫♪
posted by fuse theorem at 8:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


Wow, the very conservative, very evangelical World magazine has come out against Trump.

@WORLD_mag: Unfit for power: It’s time for @realDonaldTrump to step aside and make room for another candidate https://world.wng.org/2016/10/unfit_for_power @MarvinOlasky
posted by chris24 at 8:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Just read the Matt Yglesias thread. It's terrible and all the more so because there are no Jews on Twitter tonight. The white supremacists have full reign because it's Yom Kippur, the holiest of holy days. (Also, I am a terrible Jew). Frankly, I don't have the ovaries or the energy right now to put up any kind of a fight, as if that would do any good.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


G'mar Hatimah Tovah, Sophie. I'm here in the bad jew political junkie basket with you. <3
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


Would a "Vote your conscience, ignore the thugs next to me" sign be cool?

This would terrify me tbh
posted by zutalors! at 8:21 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


As a Canadian...who watched his father, a firefighter, wait 3 months for an MRI, and then die from a brain tumour,...it's still more important to me that there be universal access, ...so I'd like to tell Trump and Gulianni to go fuck themselves with corncobs (actually, I'd like to fuck them with corncobs but that's a bit too rude to say here, so please flag away and I'll still be glad I got it off my chest)
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Man, these evangelical non-endorsements - like, yay I guess, but I just can't fathom the world these guys live in where Clinton is this monstrously evil cackling villain. It's like I'm a one eyed woman looking at a magic eye painting. I just literally cannot see it. It makes no sense to me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [36 favorites]


G'mar chatimah tova to you as well, moonlight.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


What Matt Yglesias thread? On Metafilter?
posted by Justinian at 8:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


It’s time for @realDonaldTrump to step aside and make room for another candidate

I'd say it's a little past the time for swapping candidates. I already voted.
posted by p3t3 at 8:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Mentioned near the end of the last debate thread, relevant: Trump Taj Mahal Casino closes after years of losses...
So, yeah. Babylon. Crumbling.
posted by sexyrobot at 8:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]




did you ever watch the jonestown video? i think trump has truly come unhinged. as in his jaw, so he can swallow himself whole.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Babylon? More like Babbling-on.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Humane Society endorses Clinton, condemns Trump (video). (It came out last week, so sorry if it's been posted already.) There's a bunch of info about stuff like Clinton/Kaine's animal rights records, probable front-runners for Trump's cabinet for Secretary of Agriculture, Minister of the Interior, etc, and how Trump "even called for the Food and Drug Administration to stop regulating pet food," which y'all probably know about but I managed to miss that tidbit in September.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 8:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [37 favorites]


It's like I'm a one eyed woman looking at a magic eye painting. I just literally cannot see it. It makes no sense to me.

It's because abortion is the only way nowadays that religious conservatives can vilify, shame, and harass women for being sexual beings because they can pretend it's not about the women, but a potential embryonic human.

Nevermind that considering a fertilized egg a full human is a modern theological invention with no historical support in Christian theology.
posted by tclark at 8:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [38 favorites]






Matt Yglesias thread mentioned by Earbucket

Specifically, twitter thread. Which, it's been striking to me to lately notice people on twitter referring to strings of twitter comment as such; I've been actively following a lot of twitter stuff for years now and really don't feel like that's been such common parlance until pretty recently. Tweet storms, sure; "in my mentions" for interactions; a couple other bits of lingo I feel like are just eluding me right now.

But the move from "this" to "this whole thread" feels like a recent change in the wind. It trips me up because my immediate thought is "oh dang what MetaFilter thing are they talking about?" before I reassess. It's that twitchy response that has me feeling sure that I haven't been seeing it used that way previously; whether that's because it's just catching on lately, or just catching on lately with the subset of people/tweets retweeted by the folks I follow, I don't know, though that'd be a heck of a coincidence if it's the latter.
posted by cortex at 8:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


And it's kind of annoying because Twitter is shit for trying to actually follow a threaded conversation. It's like they're actively trying to combine the worst aspects of flat and threaded discussions.

And don't get me started on "tweetstorms", or those dumb "image of long paragraphs of text attached to a tweet" things.

(Reattaches onion to belt.)
posted by tonycpsu at 8:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


Frankly, I don't have the ovaries or the energy right now to put up any kind of a fight, as if that would do any good.

I am an Episcopalian, who as a child sat in the pews while Father Desmond Tutu came to preach in our tiny, no-account New England church. He said things I take with me now as an adult and try to teach my kid and my nieces and nephews.

I am not sorry for who I am. I will use my might to fight for those who can't. I will meet in peace and with gentleness those who want to fight me, and be the victor.

Father Tutu has decided he is at an end, this week. I am not one to deny him this.

I am not one to deny him a better tomorrow. We have heard a plea for help from our non-Christian countrymen and women, Christian or not. We must help them. Go. Vote. Explain to others why you vote. Be strong and gentle. Win.

This is a fine time for me to rediscover religion. Yet I have. It involves a story too stupid to relate here, but profound to me in ways I can't explain.

What energy I have, I will lend it to you any way I can.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [49 favorites]


I'm kind of an old, so I call everything a thread because I don't know what the current terms are.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


It's really funny how Anderson Cooper has stopped putting up with Kellyanne's shit right after Trump starts up "CNN sucks" chants.
posted by Talez at 8:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I think the hip new term is "thrizzle".
posted by mmoncur at 8:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


The San Antonio mayor responded to the photo of the cops w/Trump.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [33 favorites]


Update: "San Antonio police officers who wore Trump hats with their uniforms "will be disciplined appropriately," chief says" (Boston Globe Tweet)(Article)(City of San Antonio Tweet)
"The officers wearing the campaign hats while in uniform violated SAPD policy and will be disciplined appropriately. SAPD officers are charged with protecting the entire community. The officers displayed poor judgment. I expect them to know better than to give the appearance of endorsing a candidate while on duty and in uniform, regardless of the political campaign or the candidate." - Chief William McManus
posted by cashman at 8:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [124 favorites]


Haha especially in San-fucking-Antonio, with its gigantic Hispanic population. Those fuckers. I hope they get fired.
posted by emjaybee at 8:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


Erick Erickson: Trump Supporters Want Nancy Pelosi In the Speaker’s Chair

And it contains this tidbit: "More dirt will be coming out on Donald Trump this week to further suppress Christian voters by showing what an immoral lout he is."
posted by chris24 at 8:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


> The officers wearing the campaign hats while in uniform violated SAPD policy and will be disciplined appropriately.

Sure, that's great, but I think minorities and abuse victims received the message loud and clear - if you call the cops, you take your chances with people who wore #MAGA hats with their uniforms. Well done, San Antonio police, well done.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


Will they get a day off to think real hard about what they've done?
posted by erratic meatsack at 8:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


I spent awhile talking to my friend and an acquaintance of hers. Both of them are terrified of Trump winning, but they're both still voting Green (my friend bragged that her entire family is). Both insist that what we need is a shock to the system.

So, I'm a Green voter, I have a Jill Stein magnet on my Prius, and chances are pretty good that I will vote a straight Green ticket since, for the first time ever, I actually can. (*)

But I think they're very wrong about the "shock to the system" thing. This kind of thinking is like expecting the next mass shooting to finally sway public opinion about gun control, or the next Hurricane Katrina to launch a massive initiative to reduce carbon emissions, or the next Wall Street-driven economic crash to result in useful regulations, or the next terrible election cycle to reform our political system.

(*) Honestly? My vote may actually depend on how close things look, and I hate that. I hate every single facet of this calculation and I will continue to argue that lesser-evil voting is horrible and will only lead to increasingly terrible candidates. In 2020 or 2024 there's a real danger than that someone worse than Trump will be the Republican nominee and someone worse than Clinton will be the Democrat and the same damned arguments will come out again. I live in a red state and seriously doubt that a "strategic" vote for Hillary will work against Trump in any way, while a supposedly "protest" vote is the only effective message I can really send. But. I am watching the polls.
posted by Foosnark at 8:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Silver Fox himself, Anderson Cooper, again blows Kellyanne Conway the fuck out over settling lawsuits.

This is just great. Anderson is doing a fantastic job right now, and making most of the people on MSNBC look like amateurs. He's the first person I've seen be able to really reduce Conway to a stuttering mess with straight facts. He's like her Kryptonite. I love it.
posted by cashman at 8:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [43 favorites]


Cooper is one of CNN's few redeeming features these days.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


I just read something cringe worthy in the Salt Lake Tribune. Political forces really want Utah to go to Evan McMullin. They don't feel the love for Johnson. But the thing they revealed is that if no one gets the electoral majority, then Paul Ryan will decide who is our next president. The house decides. This is what Evan McMullin is on the ticket to do, is throw the race to who the house chooses. Yeah, so, for that I disparage this individual.
posted by Oyéah at 8:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Everytime Trump talks about the "boxes of emails," I think about the scene in Zoolander when Derek and Hansel are all, "the files are in the computer" and start smacking the computer monitor and screeching like apes and they try to retrieve the files...
posted by TwoStride at 8:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [20 favorites]


The Silver Fox himself, Anderson Cooper, again blows Kellyanne Conway the fuck out over settling lawsuits.

Thing is, it does imply guilt, on both sides. They both have to already know this.
posted by rhizome at 8:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Trumpists were absolutely rabid at Anderson Cooper on twitter during the debate, saying things that are unrepeatable. I know any out dude in the public sphere has had to develop a thick skin, but I bet he's also out of evens at this point when it comes to Trump and the deplorables among his base. So good on him for not letting Conway get away with her spin.
posted by xyzzy at 9:00 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I just read something cringe worthy in the Salt Lake Tribune. Political forces really want Utah to go to Evan McMullin. They don't feel the love for Johnson. But the thing they revealed is that if no one gets the electoral majority, then Paul Ryan will decide who is our next president. The house decides. This is what Evan McMullin is on the ticket to do, is throw the race to who the house chooses. Yeah, so, for that I disparage this individual.

The race would need to be a hell of a lot closer nationally for this to actually matter. In what scenario does Clinton's path to victory require her to win Utah? But it's one way to persuade people to 'vote their conscience' and feel like it might actually matter... and the most likely result of a bunch more people in Utah voting for McMullin is that it throws the state to Clinton.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [21 favorites]


The west coast AC feed is on CNN go right now if you want to watch.
posted by Talez at 9:01 PM on October 11, 2016


Cooper is one of CNN's few redeeming features these days.

They've actually been better I think since the whole Trump hotel infomercial bait and switch. It took them getting taken for a ride and tricked into unwittingly pitching the real estate equivalent of Trump Steaks on QVC to do it, but most of their anchors and talent seems to have had enough, at long last.

Except they still have on the same cast of miserable contributors, and still pay Ledowanski, so it's not like they're real journalists yet. But baby steps.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I just read something cringe worthy in the Salt Lake Tribune. Political forces really want Utah to go to Evan McMullin. They don't feel the love for Johnson. But the thing they revealed is that if no one gets the electoral majority, then Paul Ryan will decide who is our next president. The house decides. This is what Evan McMullin is on the ticket to do, is throw the race to who the house chooses. Yeah, so, for that I disparage this individual.

This was talked about months ago on here. Sometime around February or March, and probably every month since.
posted by cashman at 9:02 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


And it contains this tidbit: “More dirt will be coming out on Donald Trump this week to further suppress Christian voters by showing what an immoral lout he is.”

This seems less like an insider’s tip and more extrapolation based on past performance. But I’d love to be wrong.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


This was talked about months ago on here. Sometime around February or March, and probably every month since.

Hmm? Egg only got into the race in early August.
posted by neonrev at 9:06 PM on October 11, 2016


Hmm? Egg only got into the race in early August.

For instance.
posted by cashman at 9:07 PM on October 11, 2016


For McMuffin to throw the race to the House he'd have to win a bunch of states including at least one blue state. He has as much chance of that as I do and I am only getting 3 votes at last count.
posted by Justinian at 9:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Early August, and that is right, this whole ride a campaign on the resemblance to Egg McMuffin, using McDonald's advertising as name recognition, irritates me. Not that my irritation is a factor, but I have felt for a while that there is a plan underway to throw this crazy election with Ryan as a fulcrum. So there.
posted by Oyéah at 9:09 PM on October 11, 2016




Four, Justinian, and I'm in a solid blue state (and don't tell quidnunc kid)
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


After the quidnunc kid tapes came out, I'm going to make that 4 Justinian
posted by localhuman at 9:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


Maine's own homegrown Trump, Gov. Paul LePage, calls on Trump "to show some authoritarian power in our country."
posted by dhens at 9:11 PM on October 11, 2016


Yeah, I fundamentally don't understand how Egg or any other conservative 3rd party candidate weakens Clinton electorally at all. All it would do is weaken Trump voters and further ensure a larger Clinton margin. Am I missing something?
posted by neonrev at 9:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Justinimentum.
posted by Justinian at 9:12 PM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


For McMuffin to throw the race to the House he'd have to win a bunch of states including at least one blue state. He has as much chance of that as I do and I am only getting 3 votes at last count.

Not to freak out the JCPL, but McMuffin could play spoiler winning only Utah, with a generous, but still plausible, projection for Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


You're missing that most people don't actually understand our electoral process, neonrev. Up to and including the Hillary Clinton campaign staff in 2008.
posted by Justinian at 9:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Am I missing something

The magical thinking of a desperate Republican?
posted by chris24 at 9:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Well, there seem to be some marching orders, and if there were, it would be Utah, Idaho, Nevada, and maybe even Wyoming I'm just sayin, then there are the other 3rd party candidates, who are on all ballots. McMullin is on 12 state ballots, all of a sudden, or not.
posted by Oyéah at 9:13 PM on October 11, 2016


MAKE BYZANTIUM GREAT AGAIN
posted by stolyarova at 9:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


A (Charles II to George IV) reproduction furniture blogger I follow posted this funny Trump image from a Rubens painting.
posted by bonobothegreat at 9:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


McMuffin could win Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming with 100% of the vote an have no bearing on the election. Winning Nevada could possibly affect the election but almost certainly will not.

Really, Oyeah, you're freaking out over nothing and if I'm telling you that you know it must be true. I am the master emperor of freaking out.
posted by Justinian at 9:16 PM on October 11, 2016 [26 favorites]


Sorry I'm late I've been out drinking in my clown costume. Is that a trowel?
posted by svenvog at 9:17 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


I just have PTSDUT. I have my stuff wrong anyway, he is concentrating on Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico. I will chill out.
posted by Oyéah at 9:21 PM on October 11, 2016




Not to freak out the JCPL, but McMuffin could play spoiler winning only Utah, with a generous, but still plausible, projection for Trump.

In this map he's a spoiler for Trump not Clinton, because Trump would have won Utah if McMuffin didn't. It would likely mean a President Ryan rather than a President Trump. Which would be a really bad thing but better than President Trump.

McMuffin is almost certain to have no effect whatsoever on the race. But if he does pull off a miracle and do something interesting it would be to take the election away from Trump not to give it to him.
posted by Justinian at 9:22 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm about a hundred comments behind, but re: evangelical women: I am facebook friends with quite a few, none of whom really post about politics generally, and most of them have posted something or linked something expressing outrage about the Trump tape.

A good friend whose husband is a youth pastor put up a long impassioned plea to young people to understand that this was not normal or acceptable or God-honoring behavior. She was profoundly upset by the whole thing.
posted by gerstle at 9:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


I take that back, it couldn't mean a President Ryan since the House has to cast its votes for one of the people who received electoral votes, I believe. Maybe a faithless elector would cast one for Ryan? That would be interesting. In any case it couldn't make things worse, only neutral or better.
posted by Justinian at 9:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


In other news I now have a zillion different election threads open that I'm hoping to go back and finish, like, someday. Remember books? I have whole shelves of them and no idea what I used to use them for
posted by gerstle at 9:24 PM on October 11, 2016 [29 favorites]


By the way, thanks to the folks who've pointed out good christian arguments to use on wavering conservatives. I've been blanketing family with purely religious arguments against Trump (which has got a be a real head trip when it's coming from the only non-christian member of the family) and I've been finding headway. I'm not getting anyone onto the Clinton train, it's probably too late for that, but I'm demotivating voters left and right, and while I'd ordinarily feel bad about that, when it's Trump it's a damned public service, no question.

Keep 'em coming if anyone has anymore, and I encourage those who know how to fight this on religious grounds. It's a rare chance to make headway into conservatives using God, and maybe it'll stick in their minds. Every little bit helps.
posted by neonrev at 9:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


In general, if it's close enough to worry about third party spoilers, you should already be even more worried about Trump winning outright.
posted by ckape at 9:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]




A friend who lives nearby reports that a Trump sign, one of the only ones sighted in our small but generally liberal section of Colorado Springs, was taken down after the tape came out.

I repeat, a Trump sign is down in my notoriously red city.

I am feeling optimistic.
posted by mochapickle at 9:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm about a hundred comments behind, but re: evangelical women: I am facebook friends with quite a few, none of whom really post about politics generally, and most of them have posted something or linked something expressing outrage about the Trump tape.

Just wondering, did any of them have any problem with Trump's vicious racism and misogyny up until now? And if not, why not?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Love hearing that Georgia is in play! My parents' votes usually cancel out but my dad said he wouldn't vote this year because of Trump (not sure if not at all or just leaving President blank) and I'll be voting absentee from Canada. So that's two more votes for the Democratic candidate over 2012.

Our county has had big demographic changes as the racists move out even further from Atlanta (note that racist here is not conjecture- I know people who have told me that's why they moved) and I'm pretty sure already flipped to Obama. It'll be interesting to see what the county breakdowns are.

Georgia also has a particularly horrible constitutional amendment on the ballot to dissolve the current Judical Qualifications Commission and reform it under control of the General Assembly. Best I can tell, the only reason this is happening is because a judge that was removed is in the GA now and is sponsoring the bill (11 Alive news link) but I had to ask two friends who are lawyers in Georgia to tell me what I was actually voting for/against. I don't know how y'all do it in California with so many initiatives.

Also, I totally cried when I clicked open the absentee ballot pdf and saw HILLARY CLINTON. I'm waiting until I have the emotional fortitude to handle how proud I am going to be when I fill in my oval.

Also also, no one's listed on the ballot so I'm planning on writing in Leslie Knope for County Soil and Water Conservation District Supervisor.
posted by TheLateGreatAbrahamLincoln at 9:34 PM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]


I kind of like Cory Booker for 2024.
posted by tresbizzare at 9:38 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Neonrev -- maybe contrast the Trump snake song recitation with the parable of the good Samaritan? They're almost exactly opposed.
posted by Sauce Trough at 9:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Why do people like Cory Booker so much, really? I don't feel like he was very effective. Hell, his signature program crashed and burned.

I'm still on the Gavin Newsom Train.
posted by Justinian at 9:43 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Please not Gavin Newsom! As a San Franciscan, let me talk your ear off about my issues with him if he's ever on your ballot.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


This seems less like an insider’s tip and more extrapolation based on past performance.

The most prominent NeverTrump strategists -- including Rick Wilson, who's on Team McMuffin -- seem to think that it's only a matter of timing for some big oppo droppo. They've also seen the GOP private polling in Georgia that shows the bottom dropping out of Trump's support. As has Erickson, I imagine, since he's in GA and has the right connections. I'd expect POTUS or FLOTUS in Atlanta in the next fortnight.

If the Clinton team (or any smart anti-Trumper) has control over when the big oppo gets released, it'll be when more panicky elected GOPers retract their retractions, as Deb Fischer did this evening. It's the Clausewitz approach towards an army in disarray: shell them, let them regroup, shell them again.
posted by holgate at 9:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Some combination of Tim Kaine and Kamala Harris 2024!
posted by asteria at 9:59 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


I would loooove to see Kamala Harris on the ticket.
posted by erratic meatsack at 10:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Somehow this feels like what my moms's generation has been working toward for decades. And, for her, it's still a very white story based in the American 1960s. She's still very much in the not-pure-enough camp, w/r/t HRC (thanks, Vietnam War), but despite her reactions to Sunday's shitshow, damning the whole thing, she's not throwing her vote away. She was in town for a couple days, between major travels for work, and I'm really bummed we didn't get to talk much detail about all this, because I really, really wanted to get her perspective.
The closest we got was the ride to the airport in the dark of this morning, when she mentioned how much like Hitler everything seemed. I asked if she'd read that Dunderhead to Demagogue review, she hadn't.

I lived in Germany a few times in the late 90s and Austria in 2001, back when things looked pretty damn optimistic until That Day, and the legacy of the NSDAP was still a very shallow cultural memory. Held close like only dark fears can be. And a lingering cultural-level shame, mostly from people who were born post-war. It was deeply embedded. And that takes into account the cultural difficulties of the Turkish influx there in the 90s-- they legit tried their goddamn best to be OK with that. And that wasn't because they were refugees just trying to stay alive-- they were offered jobs and took them! But there was a proportion of the population who never quite let go of the fact that most of the people doing those jobs (which, to a large extent, were well-paying, manufacturing-type jobs, and an ecosystem of familiar-food purveyors) had darker skin. And somehow, 15-20 years later, we have another refugee crisis happening and the turning to vilifying those who allow refuge to people who are in the most dire need is the worst of humanity. It's hard to estimate how the prevalent attitude of the USA affects the rest of the world, when you've never been outside it.

I guess this is just rumination on hoping for a broader perspective. I get so caught up in the instantaneous up/down twitter reports, the bigger why-doesn't this-fucking-matter-Fahrenthold-and-so-many-others reporting, that I lose sight of the currents because of the spray at the top of the curls. No matter how all this plays out, we're already stuck with this shame. Even the Rush-carrying radio station I sometimes listen to for fun, today, said that Trump should just be running on the Nationalist ticket (brought up LePage), and fuck it (thankfully not in an endorsing way).

Maybe trauma is the best teacher. Maybe we can do better.
posted by rp at 10:01 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


just dropped in to say Fuck Chachi.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 10:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


I made a big post about McMullin's chances in Utah last thread. One salient point which is missing from that post: in no state besides Utah is he polling above 1 or 2%. Pretty much forget about him having any major effect in any state besides Utah.

In Utah, as of the last polling which included McMullin - WHICH WAS BEFORE THE FIRST DEBATE - it was 12% McMullin, 25% Clinton, 34% Trump, 13% Johnson.

Imagine two scenarios: in the first, McMullin has gained votes since that poll and Clinton has remained steady or lost votes; and in the second, both McMullin and Clinton have gained votes. (Johnson also matters but for the purposes of this we can pretend he stays steady. Introducing him makes my variables more variable, but the BASIC point stands.)

Scenario 1: For McMullin to win Utah, McMullin has to bleed off a solid 14 points from Trump, or 9 from Trump and 5 from Clinton, or some other equivalent of a 14-point gain, all by himself. If he makes a 13 point gain or less by pulling from one or both of them, either Trump wins or Trump and Clinton tie.

Scenario 2: McMullin and Clinton, together, have to bleed off 9 points from Trump. McMullin could gain 8 points and Clinton could gain 1, and she would win. With 26 points, but she would win. More likely is that they each gain 4 or 5, or else the two of them and Johnson each gain 3.

Starts to sound downright plausible, right?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


Why do people like Cory Booker so much, really?

Cory Booker rescued a cold puppy one time and Gavin Handsome is very Newsom. winsome. whatever. so I suppose you could rank them in any order you pleased.

before you tell me those are bad reasons to vote for gentlemen let me suggest that they are in fact good ones. better at least than voting for a man because he is rich and mean. and for Booker at least, you could tell him that some large financial institution was refusing to let a shivering dog sleep in its heated lobby and he would rise up in rage and cast off the ties of whatever problematic industry affiliations he may have. this has not been tried yet but I trust we are all waiting for 2024.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [19 favorites]


Let's start hating on Newsome by noting his wine is overpriced. They're stingy with the tasting comps, too, with like a $50 minimum purchase before waiving the tasting fee!
posted by notyou at 10:06 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I talked to my Evangelical mother a couple days ago about the election, very gingerly, and found out that she was not aware of the 2005 tape at all. (In fact, she'd seen something in the paper about people calling for Trump to leave the ticket and rolled her eyes at it without bothering to read what he was supposed to leave for.)

I had previously considered her, if not a high-information voter, at least not a super-low information voter: the impression I get is that she's been so turned off by the tone of the election in general, and so secure in the knowledge that Christian = Republican, that she hasn't paid as much attention as she normally would. Dad listens mainly to Fox and Rush, but she doesn't particularly enjoy politics even in normal election years.

Have tasked a sympathetic sibling with showing the video to both parents and will report back.

Also got to share The Good News About Evan McMullin, which Mom seemed receptive to. She isn't a Trump fan, but will never vote for Clinton because of abortion, and the Greens and Libertarians aren't anywhere close to my parents' positions on anything, so McMullin is kind of the only candidate I could even suggest as an alternative.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm about a hundred comments behind, but re: evangelical women: I am facebook friends with quite a few, none of whom really post about politics generally, and most of them have posted something or linked something expressing outrage about the Trump tape.

Behind also...just hope their outrage outweighs their pro-life reflexes. I'm not sure it will. Oh and in that Chris Matthews tape, Trump said (after much insistence by Matthews to just fucking say it) women would have to be punished for getting an abortion, possibly jail time. And of course, the men? Nothing.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 10:07 PM on October 11, 2016


I would loooove to see Kamala Harris on the ticket.

I want Kamala Khan on the ticket.
posted by BinGregory at 10:11 PM on October 11, 2016 [31 favorites]


People looking to sell McMullin to relatives may be interested in this interview with his running mate. While parts of it make me reflexively eurghhh, other parts are pretty compelling for people who are conservative and pro-life but hate Trump. Particularly the end:

GLAMOUR: You and Evan are a long shot ticket. Are you simply running to make a point and if so, what point?

MF: There is a couple pronged strategy. If Evan and our ticket were to win a state, for example, and either of the major parties failed to get to 270 electoral votes, it would go to the House. So recognizing it’s a long shot, there is that possibly. But secondarily, it’s clear to me there is huge movement behind this ticket, that we are a glimmer of light in what many have seen as a sea of darkness in this election. They’re so hungry, not just for an alternative but for a ticket they can feel proud to vote for. That is the secondary goal and that movement is going to be really important not just between now and November, but in the years ahead.

What’s happening right now with these kind of anger and fear-driven populous movements that’s fueling Donald trump is there’s also a bit of a counter movement, which is really how we see ourselves. We really believe that the work we’re doing is still vitally important to combat the fear-mongering and hate that’s coming from portions of the Donald Trump electorate.

GLAMOUR: To that end, what lesson do you want other women to take away from your long-shot bid?

MF: Sometimes you have to fail to move forward, so failing is part of the process. You can’t be afraid to fail. You have to know that your voice matters. That’s what I hope women get out of it. It’s important to be in the movement. We’re fortunate to live in a country where we’re free to speak our minds, to criticize every figure from president on down, and so your voice matters.

posted by showbiz_liz at 10:14 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


The most prominent NeverTrump strategists -- including Rick Wilson, who's on Team McMuffin -- seem to think that it's only a matter of timing for some big oppo droppo

“Oppo Droppo” sounds like something right out of Veep
posted by Going To Maine at 10:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm ready for the "far worse" stuff to drop now and kill the Trump candidacy dead. I know that might not be best for media ad revenue, but Trump is starting to do permanent damage. It's time.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Pat Buchanan said it [mine] was the greatest performance of presidential debates.

It probably sounded better in the original German.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:25 PM on October 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


@SopanDeb:
Trumpism tonight: "You better make sure we win or there will be no more Trump rallies. The hell with that. The hell with the rallies."
posted by salix at 10:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm ready for the "far worse" stuff to drop now and kill the Trump candidacy dead. I know that might not be best for media ad revenue, but Trump is starting to do permanent damage. It's time.

Give it a couple days. The past few haven't even sunk in, yet.
posted by rp at 10:27 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Yeah when it drops is almost as important as what it is.
posted by vrakatar at 10:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


One people under one god saluting one American flag.

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer
posted by kirkaracha at 10:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


I'm ready for the "far worse" stuff to drop now and kill the Trump candidacy dead. I know that might not be best for media ad revenue, but Trump is starting to do permanent damage. It's time.

It's not about ad revenue. It's about the short attention spans of voters. That's the conventional political wisdom, anyway - the reason you do an October Surprise rather than a September Surprise is because then it's fresher in voters' minds and the other camp has no time to counter or recover.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Note to guy earlier in this thread: Kratom being rescheduled by the DEA is temporarily on hold. If it WAS legal in your state before, it should still be legal as of this moment.)
posted by thebrokedown at 10:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yes, kratom re-scheduling is indeed on hold. The DEA is being forced to have a public input process on it. The outcome may be the same, but please encourage your friend to plug into the kratom advocacy networks and contact their legislator. It's been an overwhelming and surprising outcry and it's working.
posted by gingerbeer at 10:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


In 2020 or 2024 there's a real danger than that someone worse than Trump will be the Republican nominee and someone worse than Clinton will be the Democrat

That's a reasonable expectation; from a lefty perspective most Democrats would be worse than Clinton. I mean, which actually elected presidents would you point to as better? Obama, who was consistently to the right of her on everything that wasn't Iraq? The other Clinton, who brought third-way left-lite stuff to the US? Carter, who appointed Volcker to the Federal Reserve to burn inflation out with punishing interest rates and who started the enormous defense expansion we usually think of as Reagan's? Kennedy and LBJ, who devoted much of their presidencies to bombing the shit out of southeast Asia? Truman, who personally ordered the incineration of two Japanese cities?

I live in a red state and seriously doubt that a "strategic" vote for Hillary will work against Trump in any way, while a supposedly "protest" vote is the only effective message I can really send.

It won't send the message you want. This is a year where the Democrats have offered you maybe the most liberal platform in 40 or 50 years. Clinton isn't just admitting that her policy proposals imply a tax increase, she's actually running ads talking about raising taxes on rich fuckers. On television, in America. The message you will send with another Green vote is not for the Democrats to move left, it's just that you (and people with your demographics and survey responses and whatnot) just can't be reached. Which is fine if you really can't be reached and no plausible Democratic candidate for President would ever be acceptable to you.

I mean, this is basic clicker training. Reward movement towards the behavior you're trying to shape, or don't be surprised when the animal loses interest in working with you.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:38 PM on October 11, 2016 [204 favorites]


Ok so I just counted up all the things on my ballot: 39. Thirty-freaking-nine. If I spent just five minutes researching and thinking about each one it would still take more than three freaking hours.
posted by clorox at 10:45 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


Right, but how many hours have you spent reading the election threads?

ahahahahaha *sobs*
posted by yasaman at 10:46 PM on October 11, 2016 [91 favorites]


It's really funny how Anderson Cooper has stopped putting up with Kellyanne's shit right after Trump starts up "CNN sucks" chants.
Conway: Anderson, I guess a question I have is why can't CNN cover Obamacare and ISIS and radical Islamic terrorism?
Cooper: We do, all the time.
Conway: No you don't! Respectfully, you don't!
Cooper: You guys should know we do because you watch CNN all day long.
It's like the Indiana Jones scene where Harrison Ford responds to all of the fancy swordplay by impatiently shooting the guy.
posted by XMLicious at 10:48 PM on October 11, 2016 [63 favorites]


The message you will send with another Green vote is not for the Democrats to move left, it's just that you (and people with your demographics and survey responses and whatnot) just can't be reached.
Thank you so much for saying this. The bitter truth of politics is that low turnout or protest voting in a particular demographic pushes the priorities of that demographic further down the list. Jane Smith, 68 years old, regular voter and campaign donator, is going to get a working microphone. I learned this lesson when my mom and dad would doggedly make time to vote for the school budget in order to fight the legion of old folks starving the schools of resources because they have the time and inclination to participate in a way that people with actual children in school didn't.
posted by xyzzy at 10:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [34 favorites]


> Rick Wilson is teasing "evidence of the GOP nominee's utter collapse in a red state" that he says will be published soon. My bet is Utah is going blue.

Poll: Trump falls into tie with Clinton among Utah voters
posted by guiseroom at 10:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


Ok so I just counted up all the things on my ballot: 39. Thirty-freaking-nine. If I spent just five minutes researching and thinking about each one it would still take more than three freaking hours.

Just voting no on everything is a reasonable enough default, especially for stuff that's not being actively fought over on the airwaves. Or print out the local Dems' positions and do what they suggest without researching further.

Informational shortcuts are a beautiful thing.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


On O'Reilly tonight, Trump was asked about how he's going to regain the support of women. His answer started with:
Well, first of all, locker room talk and most people have heard it before. And I've had a lot of women come up to me and said, "Boy, I've heard that and I've heard a lot worse than that over my life."
A few observations:

Well, first of all, just saying the words "locker room talk" isn't a defense, it's a bullet from your talking points. Your aides wrote that down somewhere, sure, but you actually have to string it together into a sentence. It's a ridiculous and offensive argument that in no way excuses anything, but if you're going to insist on making it, it's just lazy to say "locker room talk" without context and expect everyone to treat that phrase as a shorthand for your attempts to minimize sexual assault.

But then the second point; Trump is right, and yet oh so wrong. I'm damn confident many women have not only heard, but felt and experienced a lot worse than that over their lives. I know this, because of the outpouring of stories I've heard from friends, family, and fellow Mefites since Friday, stories I've forced myself to listen to and read because listening to what victims of sexual assault are telling us is literally the very least I can do right now. I also know this because I've heard what KathrynT described: "virtually every woman I know had a 3 AM trauma response anxiety thing last night." Has Trump listened to a single one of these women tell their story? Ever? The fact that a lot of women have heard worse doesn't minimize Trump's conduct; it goes to show how much of a gigantic problem we all have. We're talking about sexual predators here. It's a pretty long and disgusting list; not being literally the worst one is not something you get a cookie for. It's like trying to defend the first Star Wars prequel by saying the Holiday Special was worse. Yes, it was, but that doesn't make Jar Jar any more acceptable.

Any remotely decent human being with an ounce of contrition would have followed that up with something to the effect of "and so I and this country need to do better, and here's how." Trump, because he's not decent or human, follows that statement up by talking about ISIS and borders and other word salad. He continues to show no awareness whatsoever of why this is a really huge deal to the extent that he is doing psychological harm to an enormous chunk of the nation. Five days later, and he can't even fake a degree of empathy. Why? Because he's a snake. That's what he does. Everyone knew that when we met him.
posted by zachlipton at 10:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [61 favorites]


Speaking of McMuffin, this from the Deseret News: Trump falls into tie with Clinton among Utah voters
Republican Donald Trump appears to have, in his earlier words, "a tremendous problem in Utah" as a new poll shows him slipping into a dead heat with Democrat Hillary Clinton since crude comments he made about women surfaced last weekend. ... The poll shows Clinton and Trump tied at 26 percent, McMullin with 22 percent and Libertarian Gary Johnson getting 14 percent if the election were held today. Y2 Analytics surveyed 500 likely Utah voters over landlines and cellphones Oct. 10-11 The poll has a plus or minus 4.4 percent margin of error. ...

McMullin’s ballot strength is striking considering that only 52 percent of voters are aware enough of his candidacy to offer an opinion, according to Y2 Analytics. However, among those that recognize his name, four out of five see him favorably.
posted by maudlin at 10:58 PM on October 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


Poll: Trump falls into tie with Clinton among Utah voters

YESSSSSS
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


Wait, so McMullin is actually within a few points of picking up Utah? Does 538 have odds on him picking up EVs yet?
posted by corb at 11:04 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


Harry Enten is on it.
posted by yasaman at 11:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


That's the conventional political wisdom, anyway - the reason you do an October Surprise rather than a September Surprise is because then it's fresher in voters' minds and the other camp has no time to counter or recover.

It's also about disruption and counter-progamming. Once again, time is the most precious commodity for any campaign at this stage, so you want oppo out in ways that eat up 3-4 days at a time.

The drip-drip release of hacked Dem-campaign email from Wikileaks -- and the stupid breathless way it's been covered, as if it's a whistleblower release and not stolen goods via foreign state-based actors -- may change this a little.

And on preview, I now think McMuffin could win Utah. Permission has been granted. Won't make a difference to the overall result, but it will cause nightmares for the institutional GOP, especially if Trump turns on Chaffetz and Herbert (and even Mormons in general).
posted by holgate at 11:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


Keep 'em coming if anyone has anymore, and I encourage those who know how to fight this on religious grounds.

Speaking-in-tongues Pentecostal here. I'm feeling pretty smug this week since I didn't need a hot mic tape to convince me to drop Trump. I've been planning on not voting for Trump since the beginning, and am still not really sure why the Billy Bush tape surprised anyone. I'd like to say it's my upbringing that helped me see Trump as completely unacceptable*, but everyone here definitely helped (and not just this election. I remember first reading about white privilege on MeFi before it was a hot button topic, years ago. I think it was called the invisible backpack then? Y'all have really helped me learn great things). I have a list of articles I've been collecting that present the thought process that helped bring me along the path from "Never Trump" to "I'm With Her". I don't have them with me now on my phone, but I'll make sure to post them soon.

Since I don't have the links right now, though, here's my fun talking point of the week. People may already know this, but the FBI director who said Hilary didn't do anything criminal? While he was appointed by Obama, he was formerly a deputy attorney general under Bush. So for all of Trump's talk, the email server issue has literally already been looked into by a Republican AG.

Not that that's the first thing of why "Cause you'd be in jail" is ridiculous, but it gave me a good eye roll.

Anyway, I've always cast a bit of a side-eye at social conservatism being joined with fiscal conservatism - that is, what in the world do lower taxes have to do with Biblical morals? - but have tended to play it safe and just voted Republican.

When Trump started doing well in the primaries, I actually got a little excited because I knew if he won the nomination I'd actually be comfortable talking to family and friends about my doubts about the political right. I guess I never thought that'd become such a popular thing for everyone else to start doing.

...Which reminds me of another talking point. I'm from Milwaukee, home of #NeverTrump Charlie Sykes' conservative radio show, so he's definitely helped me think though some stuff this season. I believe I have an article for this I can post later, but his ex-wife has been mentioned as a possible Trump nominee to the Supreme Court. Even with the chance of someone he knows well (and to my understanding is still friendly with), Sykes wants nothing to do with the idea that a vote for Trump is a vote for a conservative court. He just doesn't trust the guy.


Like I said, I have some articles I can share later tomorrow (Wednesday), but in the meantime if I can offer any insight into what I'm seeing in my circles, I'm happy to answer questions.



*In fact, I recently dug up my high school English paper on why "Donald Trump is not a businessman". The thesis probably would have made more sense if I had said "successful businessman", but I think the project requirements restricted that somehow.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 11:07 PM on October 11, 2016 [55 favorites]


It occurs to me--and this is certainly not an original thought, but still--that Egg is running for 2020 or 2024, not 2016. If he manages to pull out Utah somehow, it could put him in the serious-candidate-untainted-by-Trumpstink category with Sasse and Flake 4 or 8 years from now.
posted by dersins at 11:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


Trump at Panama City: "We want room, right?"

Okay, the dude is just parodying himself now. He can't possibly be serious.


Are there transcripts yet?

previously, (vanity fair):
Last April, perhaps in a surge of Czech nationalism, Ivana Trump told her lawyer Michael Kennedy that from time to time her husband reads a book of Hitler’s collected speeches, My New Order, which he keeps in a cabinet by his bed. Kennedy now guards a copy of My New Order in a closet at his office, as if it were a grenade. Hitler’s speeches, from his earliest days up through the Phony War of 1939, reveal his extraordinary ability as a master propagandist.

“Did your cousin John give you the Hitler speeches?” I asked Trump.

Trump hesitated. “Who told you that?”

“I don’t remember,” I said.

“Actually, it was my friend Marty Davis from Paramount who gave me a copy of Mein Kampf, and he’s a Jew.” (“I did give him a book about Hitler,” Marty Davis said. “But it was My New Order, Hitler’s speeches, not Mein Kampf. I thought he would find it interesting. I am his friend, but I’m not Jewish.”)

Later, Trump returned to this subject. “If I had these speeches, and I am not saying that I do, I would never read them.”

posted by sebastienbailard at 11:09 PM on October 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


Poll: Trump falls into tie with Clinton among Utah voters

I grew up in Utah. I have a number of friends still there. What I hear is that it's just chaos. The local news outlets, who would normally be giving Republican-slanted coverage, are unsure what to do day to day. People who are used to agreeing with each other politically by default are shouting at each other.

This may be unfair, but from my (non-Mormon, and so outsider's) perspective, it seems to me that many Utah Mormons have never really had to give much thought to their vote, at least at the national level. No real turmoil along the lines of the Clinton-Sanders split that ripped apart the American left this primary season. The right thing to do has just always been... clear.

Not this time. There's a political crisis and a moral crisis, and the voices that usually provide such clear guidance are confused and contradictory.

I think it's fantastic, and I really wonder what will happen there after this election.
posted by gurple at 11:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [86 favorites]


In 2020 or 2024 there's a real danger than that someone worse than Trump will be the Republican nominee and someone worse than Clinton will be the Democrat

The Republican civil war changes the game theory options you have.

If we help the Democratic Party completely pulverize the Republican Party this year (or maybe this year plus 2018) there's all the more chance that it'll be a worse Democrat being credibly challenged by a nominee from a third party. Both as a result of Democrat-criticizing remnants of the GOP coalescing, but also because if the Democrats get enough of an upper hand then responsibility for everything during the ensuing White House and Congresses will be unambiguously theirs, as opposed to two established parties transitively blaming each other and passing the buck back and forth.

The various aspects of our democracy that prevent third parties from existing stably do still permit a change in which two parties are on top. Hopefully all of the racist, sexist, fascist crap from Trump will become the "abject Whiggery" of the 21st century.
posted by XMLicious at 11:13 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


By the way, thanks to the folks who've pointed out good christian arguments to use on wavering conservatives.

Dude literally covets his neighbor's wife, if that helps.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [50 favorites]


Also, there must be some stuff in there applicable against spousal rape?
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:15 PM on October 11, 2016




Public service note for California voters -- if you have questions about the state ballot initiatives, or want to know how I'm voting (progressive queer feminist, registered Dem), hit me up in MeMail. Offer also good for San Francisco voters.
posted by gingerbeer at 11:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


Holy shit, McMullin's gonna win Utah. Calling it now. I REALLY thought it would be Clinton, but now that he's polling so close, it gives undecideds and weak Trump voters every reason in the world to vote for him. He's not going to stop picking up voters, and now I think he has the momentum to pick them up faster than Clinton can.

This is huge. We might have a state not go R or D for the first time in 50 years. And the Mormons might come out of this election looking like the most principled Christians in America.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [46 favorites]


We might have a state not go R or D for the first time in 50 years.

And this time it won't go to the white supremacists.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:39 PM on October 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


And the Mormons might come out of this election looking like the most principled Christians in America.

That outcome would be horrible news for America.

In a presentation that has provoked some criticism, former Senator Gordon H. Smith, a Republican of Oregon, shared with the apostles that he voted in favor of the Iraq War partly because he believed it could open the region for Mormon missionaries.

That isn't principled Christianity, that's exercising political control over the Armed Forces of the United States of America to recruit people to your church, even if that results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [40 favorites]


TRUMP: "I wouldn’t want to be in a foxhole with a lot of these people that I can tell you, including Ryan...especially Ryan.”

You didn't want to be in a foxhole with anybody, which is why you evaded the draft.
posted by msalt at 11:52 PM on October 11, 2016 [54 favorites]


It won't send the message you want. This is a year where the Democrats have offered you maybe the most liberal platform in 40 or 50 years. Clinton isn't just admitting that her policy proposals imply a tax increase, she's actually running ads talking about raising taxes on rich fuckers. On television, in America. The message you will send with another Green vote is not for the Democrats to move left, it's just that you (and people with your demographics and survey responses and whatnot) just can't be reached. Which is fine if you really can't be reached and no plausible Democratic candidate for President would ever be acceptable to you.

I mean, this is basic clicker training. Reward movement towards the behavior you're trying to shape, or don't be surprised when the animal loses interest in working with you.


I'm so close to paying another $5 just so I can favorite this twice.
posted by heathkit at 11:55 PM on October 11, 2016 [89 favorites]


I've actually read some of Hitler's speeches. I have a tough time believing that Donald could understand them. However, Hitler's speech upon the dissolution of the Weimar Republic has some pretty disturbing ideological parallels to the rhetoric we face today--trade protectionism, focus on the decline of the German state, pointing out an apocalyptic level of criminality on German streets, calling out social democrats as believers in a demonic doctrine, calling out weak leadership, raising the German worker and peasant from their misery, lowering taxes, denouncing the practice of Germany getting nothing for something on the world stage, etc. etc.

But the big difference between Trump and Hitler is that Hitler's approach was ruthlessly crafted after years of study and convincingly delivered. Trump may have picked up on the fact that some of these arguments would work, but his elocution is incredibly weak. He's certainly compelling to some segment of the population, but we live in a world where Saturday Night Live and twitter exist. It would take a much craftier and more charismatic candidate to actually deliver the US into fascism.
posted by xyzzy at 12:03 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I mean, this is basic clicker training. Reward movement towards the behavior you're trying to shape, or don't be surprised when the animal loses interest in working with you.

Who's holding the clicker here, me or the Democrats?
posted by 3urypteris at 12:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


I'm about a hundred comments behind, but re

I was going to say I found this opening a little hurtful as I have made the 1500-comment slog from the middle of the last thread to here over the last several hours. Then I realized that there were others who would be more pained than I am: I expect you will receive a pointed memail in February when tehhund reads this.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


"Donald Trump is not my role model. He is not my 'Christian on a Mission.' That's my ministry, that's what I do," said Guardiola. "But when you compare what he has said which is again lock room talk compared to what Hillary has done in reference to the abortions and Planned Parenthood and everything, you can't compare."
posted by tilde at 12:12 AM on October 12, 2016


Who's holding the clicker here, me or the Democrats?

You. If the Democrats court you and you reject them, then they have to push a more centrist platform in order to get elected and effect meaningful change. Witness Bernie's ability to reach out to leftists and the party's response by shimmying left.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:15 AM on October 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


Who's holding the clicker here, me or the Democrats?
You are. The time to express positions is during primaries. My friend voted for Bernie to let Hillary know that he was engaged but progressive. But there's no way that he would consider voting third party after being rewarded with a much less centrist platform during the DNC.
posted by xyzzy at 12:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [36 favorites]


This is huge. We might have a state not go R or D for the
first time in 50 years. And the Mormons might come out of this
election looking like the most principled Christians in
America.


Huh. Secular humanist here, but former sunday school teacher
Hillary Rodham Clinton seems to have some fairly praiseworthy
principles and backs them up with Christ-like behavior, right?

You're saying that at a time of unprecedented wealth disparity,
teetering past a tipping point for climate change that's going to
result in mass death and forced migrations, that the best Utah
can do is, instead of voting for a staggeringly racist
spouse-raping plutocratic fascist, is to instead cast an
ineffectual protest vote for a coreligionist? Instead of casting
a positive vote for a highly competent and compassionate policy
wonk?

There are other Christians out there whose principles I respect a
bit more right now.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [59 favorites]


The other day I posted on fb:
I'm mad at my wife for singing "Tim Kaine in the membrane, Tim Kaine in the brain." Because now it'll be stuck in my head until I invent a Time Machine and go back in time to kill Cypress Hill.

The first, most brilliant comment following was:
Please be having done it as soon as has been possible.

Which gave me the first good laugh in weeks. I hate every election year, but this one feels like the worst in my adult life. I get the lukewarm response to Hillary despite her competence, but I cannot fathom wanting Trump as president unless zombie Hitler were running against him. We know now that even the pretense of ideological compliance trumps character in every way that counts with at least 30% of the population, and I suspect given the right circumstances a similar percent of the opposite end of the political spectrum. *sigh*
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [33 favorites]


It would take a much craftier and more charismatic candidate to actually deliver the US into fascism.

So, what you're saying here is just wait for the GOP ticket circa 2020.
posted by mwhybark at 12:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


“When you consider what pro-lifers believe abortion is, which is essentially the systematic killing of millions of children every year, that’s an issue of some national importance,” said Long, the co-president of Harvard Right to Life. “If Clinton gets this nomination, you know that essentially our generation is not going to fix Roe v. Wade.” Even with those stakes, Long would only say he is “tentatively” leaning toward Trump. (He confirmed Monday that the Access Hollywood tape had not changed that.)

[...]

Still, few young pro-lifers I spoke to felt comfortable voting for Hillary Clinton. They are disturbed by her support for legal late-term abortion and for repealing the Hyde Amendment, which bars federal funds from being used to pay for abortion. The Democratic platform adopted at the convention in July is more strongly in favor of abortion rights than ever. That makes the Republican Party the only quasi-reasonable place for committed pro-life voters.
posted by tilde at 12:35 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


and I suspect given the right circumstances a similar percent of the opposite end of the political spectrum
I for one sure hope it does, given the stakes. I'd hope no-one would throw away our last chance to address climate change just because they were mad at some non-PC comments made by Clinton in a gotcha tape from decades ago. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 12:38 AM on October 12, 2016


So, what you're saying here is just wait for the GOP ticket circa 2020.
The seeds are surely there. There's a motivated segment of Trumpists and possibly enough apathy in other segments of the electorate to make 2020 and 2024 concerning. So what we need to have happen is an elected candidate with long coat tails who can address the needs of those who feel disenfranchised by improving the economy. Even my Trumpist uncle says he never felt better than when Bill was in charge during an economic boom. This anti-Obama obstructionism just feeds into the narrative that government doesn't work and nothing matters, driving the apathy that concerns me even more than the InfoWars wing of the Republican Party.
posted by xyzzy at 12:55 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


It would take a much craftier and more charismatic candidate to actually deliver the US into fascism.

I couldn't disagree more. When I look at the fascist dictators of the recent past, what always strikes me is how stunningly un-charismatic most of them were. I never understood how people would rally around them.

I still don't understand, even though we're witnessing it now first hand.
posted by kanewai at 12:59 AM on October 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


[US Senate candidate Darryl Glenn (R-challenger)] avoided answering repeated questions about whether he would vote for Trump, despite two days earlier calling him unqualified for the job and demanding he end his White House bid after a 2005 video showed the New York businessman bragging about groping women. Glenn now says his faith teaches him to forgive Trump but his endorsement is “suspended.”

“This is a teachable moment of faith because if an individual actually says they need help and they want to repent, then your faith teaches you to give them an opportunity,” Glenn said, calling Trump a part of the Republican family.
posted by tilde at 12:59 AM on October 12, 2016


Translation: he's waiting for the n-word tape to come out before he walks.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


When did Trump say he needs help and wants to repent? The news sure moves fast these days!
posted by thelonius at 1:08 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


If you read between the lines and squint real hard....
posted by perspicio at 1:14 AM on October 12, 2016


I sort of suspect the next shoe to drop won't be the racial slurs, but evidence he paid for abortions.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


I can't believe that Trump paid for abortions. I could believe that he promised to pay for abortions...
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:23 AM on October 12, 2016 [118 favorites]


As per Ben Carson, Trump may have been seen ostentatiously praying briefly before the debate. This is a special action that can be performed once per turn. It resets the Status Condition "Sexual Assaulter" but uses 10 MP. Your character is helpless to melee and range attacks while praying, but can be defended by surrogates.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [75 favorites]


It would take a much craftier and more charismatic candidate to actually deliver the US into fascism.

Maybe it would take someone like that to convert the US into a robust fascist state capable of launching a two-front world-conquering war while discovering nuclear fission and inventing rocket planes and ballistic missiles, but we did actually just see Trump, completely winging it and when he wasn't busy opening golf courses, utterly overrun the 162-year-old institution of the GOP and then cram his hand up its ass and use it as a puppet.

As kanewai points out, it doesn't exactly take Dr. Evil to pull off the version of fascism where you burst a few of the least-well-maintained dams holding back problems in society and leverage the anarchy so you can take power over whatever's left afterwards.
posted by XMLicious at 1:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


It won't send the message you want. This is a year where the Democrats have offered you maybe the most liberal platform in 40 or 50 years. Clinton isn't just admitting that her policy proposals imply a tax increase, she's actually running ads talking about raising taxes on rich fuckers. On television, in America. The message you will send with another Green vote is not for the Democrats to move left, it's just that you (and people with your demographics and survey responses and whatnot) just can't be reached. Which is fine if you really can't be reached and no plausible Democratic candidate for President would ever be acceptable to you.

I mean, this is basic clicker training. Reward movement towards the behavior you're trying to shape, or don't be surprised when the animal loses interest in working with you.


We hope! Unfortunately, the platform doesn't mean anything if you can't trust Clinton or the Democrats. I mean, when Obama ran in 2008 he promised to raise taxes on the wealthy too. They even gave him the Nobel Peace Prize, and then he went and bombed five countries.

Besides, what message is being sent if you are a member of the Green Party and also vote for the Green candidate? That's not a protest vote, that's a vote. But if you live in a solidly red state already, then why not? If Stein can pull 5%, then the Greens will get public funding in 2020 and become stronger. The way things are shaping up, there's really no better time than this election--the more Trump bleeds in the polls, the less necessary it becomes for you to cast a lesser-evil vote for Clinton. (Depending, maybe, on what state you live in.)
posted by I'm Only Happy When It Rains On Your Wedding Day at 1:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


...it doesn't exactly take Dr. Evil...

Okay so maybe Dr. Evil isn't a good example of someone who is both charismatic and crafty, but you get what I mean.
posted by XMLicious at 1:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Maybe it would take someone like that to convert the US into a robust fascist state capable of launching a two-front world-conquering war while discovering nuclear fission and inventing rocket planes and ballistic missiles, but we did actually just see Trump, completely winging it and when he wasn't busy opening golf courses, utterly overrun the 162-year-old institution of the GOP and then cram his hand up its ass and use it as a puppet.

The GOP has been setting itself up for this ever since it went hard for the Southern Strategy. I think.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Kanewai, I totally get what you're saying, but charisma is not just elocution and physical appearance; the whole package has to be credible within the system it wishes to subvert. Putin is the perfect example--his credentials as a political animal were impeccable and he was able to easily subvert the young Russian democracy and bring it much closer to totalitarianism, if not outright fascism. Trump comes with too much baggage and too little political experience to make it very far into an actual Presidential term, imho. If he'd already spent years grooming the Tea Party and the alt right without being overly offensive to more traditional Conservatives, I would feel much differently.

But he still must be aggressively opposed, obviously, because he could do an incredible amount of damage in a very short time. Something akin to XMLicious' vision is very credible, imho.
posted by xyzzy at 1:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


But if you live in a solidly red state already, then why not?

What's red today? The more of the house and senate we give Hillary, the more we can do on the environment.
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


Well, she'll have at least four years to convince them otherwise and bring them back into the fold, if that's the case.

I actually can't wait for years from now when everyone is SHOCKED at how great a president Hillary has turned out to be.
posted by threeturtles at 1:42 AM on October 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


The GOP has been setting itself up for this ever since it went hard for the Southern Strategy. I think.

It reminds me of the Roman Empire building roads into barbarian lands while conquering them, then the barbarians use the roads for invading Rome. (I don't know how significant that actually was in the fall of the Roman Empire but if it's just a History Channel soundbiteification it seems all the more appropriate given the sorts of patterns and behaviors the GOP has cultivated in its electorate, which Trump took advantage of.)
posted by XMLicious at 1:46 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Holy shit, McMullin's gonna win Utah. Calling it now. I REALLY thought it would be Clinton, but now that he's polling so close, it gives undecideds and weak Trump voters every reason in the world to vote for him. He's not going to stop picking up voters, and now I think he has the momentum to pick them up faster than Clinton can.


I don't know, I like to see Egg McMentum but I still think Clinton's got a chance in Utah. And I still think Trump has a much bigger chance than that. There are a ton of racists here and a ton of people who have just punched the "R" button their entire life.

Gary Johnson has 14% in that poll, when he had 1% in 2012, so I think those 13 points are going to go to someone. Historically, it's probably going to be Trump. Maybe Egg does have a chance though.

Then again, this is the first time in my political life I've been unable to 100% predict the election outcome in my state...
posted by mmoncur at 1:47 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Guiliani on stage in Panama City. "She even had to drag out Al Gore. Remember him?"

I...I did not know how much anger I still held from the 2000 election until I read that. I mean, I think that flare of rage was almost the worst I've felt this whole season.

And FUCKING GUILIANI says that??? FUUUUUUUUU
posted by threeturtles at 2:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [37 favorites]


What's red today? The more of the house and senate we give Hillary, the more we can do on the environment.

Well, downballot is more complex and consequently may require more complex decisions. Stein's not running for congress, though--if you're in, say, Missouri, it makes at least some sense to vote Stein for president with 2020 in mind, and Kander for senator instead of whoever the Greens are putting forward (if they even have a candidate for senator there?)
posted by I'm Only Happy When It Rains On Your Wedding Day at 2:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


> "Who's holding the clicker here, me or the Democrats?"

Well, both, in a sense. This kind of thing is based on mutual goals.

The human wants the dog to behave in a particular way. The dog wants a treat. From the human point of view, treats are being used to encourage behavior. From the dog's point of view, behavior is being used to encourage treats. IT IS A PERFECTLY REASONABLE ARGUMENT THAT THE DOG IS TRAINING THE HUMAN. That's because this kind of training works on mutual benefit. It is only effective when both parties are being rewarded with something they desire.

The voter wants the political party to behave in a certain way. The political party wants a vote. Who is training who, exactly? Who cares? When the political party is exhibiting the proper behavior, GIVE THEM THEIR TREAT BECAUSE BOTH SIDES THEN BENEFIT.
posted by kyrademon at 2:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [57 favorites]


It reminds me of the Roman Empire building roads into barbarian lands while conquering them, then the barbarians use the roads for invading Rome.

no, what they did was hire the barbarians for their armies - which, if you look at who is in our armed forces and our police isn't too far from what we're doing
posted by pyramid termite at 2:40 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]




I wonder how easy it would be to get an "End male suffrage" chant going at a Trump rally.

Just curious.
posted by vbfg at 2:56 AM on October 12, 2016 [53 favorites]


Speaking as someone from a red state that's probably going to stay red this year, it doesn't really make much sense to vote Stein. Even in a place as goddess-forsaken as my home state of Kansas. A vote for Stein only counts towards the 5 percent goal which, if current polling is to be believed, isn't going to be reached this year.

In all other respects, it's a fairly useless vote. The teabagger forces here will merely have a good laugh at any vote for Stein. Having the Democrats & Clinton get an extra 5% this year will put the fear of God into them, especially with moderate Kansas Republicans in full revolt now. Since we're stuck with Brownback for 2 more years, more votes for the Democrats at all levels puts more pressure on him to either moderate his actions, or double-down, the latter of which will take Mr. 20% Approval's branch of the party even further down the polls and pave the way for a Democratic governor in 2018. Which means Democrats will have a voice in the re-districting of 2020.

Having the Democrats score higher will also encourage other people to show up at the polls in 2018 and 2020. In a state like Kansas, it's really easy for my fellow Democrats to get discouraged and stay home. At the presidential caucus this year, the polling place was packed and the constant refrain was "I didn't know there was so many of us!" Voting for Clinton reinforces that message. There are more of us than many Kansas Democrats think. And a decent show in numbers will encourage Republicans on the fence to switch sides.

And with 2016 being such a weird year, there's always a small chance of a strong turnout of quietly NeverTrump people, or Republicans who decided at the last minute they want nothing to do with someone so vulgar. Voting for Clinton in a place like Kansas may help produce a lovely surprise on Election Day.

Stein helps with none of that. The Greens have absolutely no presence here beyond a handful in Lawrence. A vote for her is as useless in Kansas as it is anywhere else.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [83 favorites]


THAT'S THE WRONG HAMILTON!

"Time is said to have only one dimension, and space to have three dimensions. ... The mathematical quaternion partakes of both these elements; in technical language it may be said to be 'time plus space', or 'space plus time': and in this sense it has, or at least involves a reference to, four dimensions. And how the One of Time, of Space the Three, Might in the Chain of Symbols girdled be."
posted by kersplunk at 3:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I wonder how easy it would be to get an "End male suffrage" chant going at a Trump rally.

"Men have suffered enough! End Male Suffrage!" I think you'd get some bites.
posted by honestcoyote at 3:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


An elector in Washington state pledged to vote for Clinton has announced that he may be a faithless elector.
Robert Satiacum Jr. calls Hillary Clinton a “clown,” a “rat,” a “criminal” and a virtual clone of Donald Trump. But that’s not all... Satiacum, an activist member of Washington’s Puyallup Tribe, says he isn’t aware of any truly “criminal” activity by Clinton but distrusts her environmental policies, which he calls “crimes against our mother, this Earth."
posted by xyzzy at 3:04 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


On a more relevant note, here in Ireland we have a parliamentary system, typical campaigns last a few weeks, we have single transferable vote with multi-seat constituencies, individual candidates aren't allowed to spend more that €30-€45k (depending on whether it's a 3, 4, or 5 seater constituency), the biggest donation a candidate can take is €2.5k and a national party €6.3k. We have presidential elections which also last a few weeks, but president here is a mostly powerless, largely ceremonial role. Our current president by the way is a 5'4" left wing poet and former soccer club president whose loveliness is perhaps best captured by this tea cosy.

As an outside observer, I love the quirky insanity of the American process - the Iowa caucuses, speeches at St. Anselm, Dixville Notch, Super Tuesday, 'town halls', brokered conventions, superdelegates, faithless electors... This time around though, I'm completely sick of the whole thing and just want it to be over and for that orange shithead to crawl back from whence he came.
posted by kersplunk at 3:23 AM on October 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


Regarding voting for the Greens, I just don't get it. Not only for the reasons mentioned above, but because I find it impossible to see Stein as a good choice for pretty much anything at this point and the Greens don't do much of anything in our political system except throw up candidates like her every four years then disappear. It seems more like voting for the name "Green" as if that alone was meaningful. I'd personally need to hear any sort of realistic defense of Stein and her foolishness this cycle to be able to even vaguely understand voting for the Greens right now, and even that would leave all the other points raised unanswered as to any real value in the decision.

Regarding McMullin, it certainly wouldn't be my ideal outcome if he miraculously managed to throw the election to the House. But given that McMullin would likely then end up as president since Trump would be a non-starter for too many Republicans at that point, I could still live with the outcome. Having a moderate like McMullin as the head of a Republican government could really change the relationship between the two parties. That's something we drastically need to avoid walking up to the edge of a cliff every four years and daring ourselves to jump.

Among other things, we need to end the practice of using race as a dividing point in elections and to get past the "my way or no way" law making going on in the congress. Given how little we know about Egg, it's hard to be certain of what he'd do, but from his platform positions and what he says, there is good reason to imagine that he'd be someone who could work with both parties. So, for me, the minuscule risk of this going to the House is easily outweighed by any added possibility of preventing Trump from getting anywhere close to the presidency.

So Satiacum's a Bernie guy then? Or maybe even Stein perhaps?
posted by gusottertrout at 3:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Frank Luntz, via Balloon Juice: Between Sept. 10th and Oct. 10th, the Florida GOP registered 117 new voters.

Florida Democrats registered 6,920.
This confirms the Ace-in-the-hole that I was hoping we had for this election: Trump supporters don't know how to register to vote.

(Maybe they can still register by November 28th though!)
posted by mmoncur at 4:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


Anybody else notice the Leia/Jabba memes starting to crop up? Look at Crooked Leia storing confidential data on a private server...
posted by Sublimity at 4:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [36 favorites]


So while not everything is automatically Russia's fault, and Trump isn't some Russian agent, it's not crazy to believe Russia is meddling in this election because Russia has already been shown to be meddling in this election.

I'm always a little astonished when Americans are skeptical Russia might be meddling in American affairs. Do they not realize we brought down their entire system/empire partly through a sustained campaign of economic and cultural espionage? The remaining powers from the old USSR have every incentive in the world to want to promote social and political discord in the US and they'd even have plenty of reason to feel self righteous about doing it since it's not like the US hasn't interfered in their affairs, regardless of how you feel about the historical necessity for all that Cold War interference... I don't think working on behalf of destructive political figures like Trump is the first or the last we should expect to see of Russia trying to influence American affairs to our collective detriment. Putin is ex-KGB. Fostering confusion and chaos wherever it's most advantageous is just SOP for guys like him.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:32 AM on October 12, 2016 [63 favorites]


Having a moderate like McMullin as the head of a Republican government could really change the relationship between the two parties.

Citation needed on more than a few things in this sentence.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Maybe Egg does have a chance though.

Him?
posted by Meatbomb at 4:45 AM on October 12, 2016 [46 favorites]


NYT Frank Bruni: Daughters and Trumps: As the father of no daughters, I’m appalled by Donald Trump’s comments about groping women.

As the husband of no wife, I’m offended.

What, you ask, do my parental and marital status have to do with recognizing the outrage of what he said? I wonder, too. But they must be germane, because Republicans seem unable to censure Trump without invoking female spouses and especially offspring.

posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:53 AM on October 12, 2016 [106 favorites]


New Clinton video. Obama's greatest hits. GO VOTE.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:01 AM on October 12, 2016 [60 favorites]


Okay so I totally had a dream about Hillary Clinton last night!

It was a weekend night and I was hanging out with the girlfriends in my apartment (I actually live in a house, but this place frequently appears as my abode in my dreams), drinking bourbon and eating a combination of healthy and unhealthy snacks like normal, when Hillary shows up.

My friends and I commented about how awful this election was and fangirled a reasonable amount. We all hung out together and laughed a lot and got pretty drunk. It got to be the point in the night when someone would typically fire up a bowl, but we thought maybe that wasn't the best idea, so we played Apples to Apples. I kept getting really good cards, so it was around here that I started to suspect this was probably a dream.

Afterward she thanked us for a fun night away from the stress and the cameras and letting her just be herself for a couple hours.

Then I woke up. For the first time in months I woke up and didn't feel like something horrid was lurking around the corner. I wasn't even that sad that the dream was over. I just fell back to sleep. It was a really great dream.
posted by chaoticgood at 5:13 AM on October 12, 2016 [60 favorites]


Early Voting is open in Ohio. Ohio Mefites, get out there and vote ASAP. Every vote banked early is a vote we don't have to worry about on election day. No excuses!
posted by Justinian at 5:15 AM on October 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


I have a Jill Stein magnet on my Prius,

You don't say.
posted by spitbull at 5:15 AM on October 12, 2016 [73 favorites]


Surely the Green Party should want as few votes as possible so as to maximize the homeopathic effect of their convictions on the election.
posted by winna at 5:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [145 favorites]


I have a Jill Stein magnet on my Prius,

I know, right? I thought Jill Stein didn't believe in magnets.
posted by box at 5:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [61 favorites]


I'm way behind on this thread, but just popping in to say congrats to the Eggman and we're all so proud of you.
posted by sallybrown at 5:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


> New Clinton video. Obama's greatest hits. GO VOTE.

Damn that was good.
posted by vbfg at 5:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Woman: “If Hillary Clinton gets in...I’m ready for a revolution, b/c we can’t have her in”
Pence: “Don’t say that”

Scary. Maybe Pence will actually be helpful and have a few McCain-esque "No, no, ma'am, Obama's not a Muslim" type moments? Also she looks like she is literally wearing a foil hat.


Or because he's running for President. On Sunday, Trump unintentionally launched Pence's 2020 campaign. It won't be difficult for Pence now to distance himself from the Hindenburg-esque election and post-result whinefest.
posted by dances with hamsters at 5:39 AM on October 12, 2016


Citation needed on more than a few things in this sentence.

Heh. I meant it as a comparative to our current crop of Republicans and would reemphasize could in the my original statement.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


roomthreeseventeen: "New Clinton video. Obama's greatest hits. GO VOTE."

Damn, that got me all teary eyed.
posted by octothorpe at 5:45 AM on October 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


Also got to share The Good News About Evan McMullin, which Mom seemed receptive to.

I'm amused at the stealth canvasing conservative-friends-and-family-of-MeFites for McMuffin operation we have going on.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Woke up this morning, turned on the TV and saw Obama's speech in North Carolina. And felt - even for an English person in England - a sudden and overwhelming regret that quite soon he will no longer be POTUS, and can't and won't be POTUS again. It's strange, this strong feeling that I will personally miss someone being leader of a country that I don't live in, and is a continent away.
posted by Wordshore at 5:49 AM on October 12, 2016 [77 favorites]


Or because he's running for President. On Sunday, Trump unintentionally launched Pence's 2020 campaign. It won't be difficult for Pence now to distance himself from the Hindenburg-esque election and post-result whinefest.

He's only distanced himself from the pussy grabbing. He was a full supporter of the racism and Islamophobia and general misogyny. He has no political future.
posted by rocket88 at 5:49 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Saw some of the Frontline documentary last night and specifically the part positing that Trump is doing this all as a reaction to the grilling Obama gave him at the Press-Correspondance dinner business (it's already been linked up thread/in another). And the way Trump is flipping out and lashing out at all the republican 'leadership' it occurred to me that Obama could, just maybe add this feather to his cap. That by goading this maniac into running for the presidency he has in fact managed to break the Republican Party who, for the last eight years have been such total fucking dicks. And wow, is that a satisfying thought.
posted by From Bklyn at 5:50 AM on October 12, 2016 [119 favorites]


Honestly? Screw Pence for that half-hearted denial. Any answer to her revolution talk that segues into talking up mythical voter fraud is just encouraging the problem. He wants her anger, he just doesn't want to get his hands dirty with it. You wind up these people and set them in motion and we get the Planned Parenthood shooting or the Malheur Refuge or Oklahoma City or worse.
posted by bluecore at 5:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I know, right? I thought Jill Stein didn't believe in magnets.

Water, fire, air, dirt. Fucking first-past-the-post voting systems, how do they work?
posted by snofoam at 5:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


He's only distanced himself from the pussy grabbing.

As far as I know he's only distanced himself from the talking about the pussy grabbing.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


>a sudden and overwhelming regret that quite soon he will no longer be POTUS, and can't and won't be POTUS again.

Pretending for a moment that the ugliness of the currect election cycle isn't happening--if we're having Former First Lady Presidents now, can we have Michelle Obama next?
posted by Sing Or Swim at 5:54 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


I mean, when Obama ran in 2008 he promised to raise taxes on the wealthy too

and he did! The Bush tax cuts sunsetted for the top marginal rate, which is back at 39.6%.

Democrats also got PPACA funded by hitting the rich with a pretty hefty Medicare tax (this is their true reason for wanting "repeal and replace")

Beginning with tax year 2013 , single taxpayers who earn more than $200,000 and married taxpayers with combined income of more than $250,000 will face a new 3.8 percent Medicare tax on their investment gains.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:55 AM on October 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Wow - the Go Vote ad was amazing. I noticed in the Mormons for Hillary ad (not sure of the exact title) and this one that much of the spoken word was captioned on the screen - which just feels so inclusive to me. Has that been the case with most of the Hillary ads?
posted by hilaryjade at 5:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


That VOTE video from Obama along with the pro-Hillary ads running in my state is a clear signal that we have reached the positive messaging stage of the HRC campaign as a direct opposition to the beheading video in the recent Trump ad. I think this is a good move right now.

I disagree with Obama on like three major things but in many ways he is my Kennedy. Even now, when I hear him speak, I think we can change the world. He's just so incredible at the aspirational messaging.
posted by xyzzy at 5:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


if we're having Former First Lady Presidents now, can we have Michelle Obama next?

I get the sentiment, but there is considerably more to both Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama than 'Former First Lady.'
posted by Mooski at 5:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


My cat reminded me that if anyone grabs her she hopes they won't miss their eyeballs and lips.

I swear she runs and hides when Trump comes on TV. And she's not the only tuxedo cat with good sense.
posted by spitbull at 5:59 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Has that been the case with most of the Hillary ads?

Yes, but I think not so much for accessibility as because they are usually run on Twitter and FB where the default is the sound being muted.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:59 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I adore Michelle Obama, but I don't think she's ever given any indication that she wanted to be president.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


I thought this was a fairly interesting analysis:

Where Do Clinton And Trump Have The Most Upside?
posted by kyrademon at 6:01 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Winnie the Dog from the Hillary app is on Instagram and I have no idea why she doesn't have 10 trillion followers. #ImWoofHer
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:03 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


And she's not the only tuxedo cat with good sense.

Posted by Meredith. [real, but a different Meredith. I think.]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:03 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


HA! I reached the end!

Seriously, though: the Republican establishment has been fostering a monster for the last 4 decades, and now that monster has turned on them and will rip them to shreds. The monster isn't Trump - he's just one of its many heads. The monster is their electorate, their riled up mob of ignorant, racist and misogynist haters, to whom they've been feeding base lies and dogwhistles. And now the establishment has completely lost control. Cut off Trump - so what, there are hundreds of hate-spewing heads on that monster, and now it is emboldened: it has learnt that nothing is too lewd, too aggressive, too crazy.

I have hopes that the monster will die of old age, but I fear for the damage it will do until then.
posted by mumimor at 6:04 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Guiliani on stage in Panama City. "She even had to drag out Al Gore. Remember him?"

WHY YES I DO REMEMBER HIM, MR. GUILIANI. He lost the presidential election by 527 votes, the same year that you couldn't even make it to the Republican ticket for the senate race against Hilary because the GOP dropped you after you fell twelve points behind in the polls because of your complete moral turpitude and failure of leadership in NYC. Yes, many of us remember the year 2000 quite well, sir.
posted by Mayor West at 6:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [113 favorites]


Winnie the Dog from the Hillary app is on Instagram
#Fraggles4Hillary
posted by pxe2000 at 6:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Good to see over on The Twitter some photographs of early voters in Ohio: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]
posted by Wordshore at 6:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Arizona has turned blue on 538.
posted by EarBucket at 6:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [56 favorites]


Trump has been tweeting again whining about Wikileaks and with a complete misunderstanding of the powers of a Senator and First Lady of Arizona.
posted by Talez at 6:14 AM on October 12, 2016






If Dems invested the time and energy they use to castigate Green voters for not voting Democratic on fighting for transferable voting in Democratic-controlled legislatures instead, the problem would be gone by now.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah Giuliani just gave away the secret to his shameful descent into a laughingstock fool (we New Yorkers already knew this though).... He is bitter he never got even close to the presidency, and that his Mr. 9/11 framing was so weak.

Christie and Gingrich too, their nasty ressentiment is a mask for bitterness at overwhelming rejection of their fondest ambitions. They feel emasculated. It's the connection between sexual harassment and presidential aspiration.

And that is what Trump faces now in the mirror, which is why he is losing his shit.

That outcome where Trump is utterly humiliated into an election night tirade that destroys him historically and costs him his future prominence and success!

ETA: humiliated by ... a woman!
posted by spitbull at 6:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Came rushing in this morning for the McMuffin love, stayed for the amazing Go Vote video.
posted by anastasiav at 6:18 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump voter shows Rick Wilson he can be a complete hypocrite by donating a thousand dollars to Ann Kirkpatrick, McCain's opponent

If Dems invested the time and energy they use to castigate Green voters for not voting Democratic on fighting for transferable voting in Democratic-controlled legislatures instead, the problem would be gone by now.

Ahahahahahaha. Ahahahaha. Oh Tiva that was a good one. Democrats have spent a decade trying to pass the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact. And you think we could get STV for the presidential election just like that? Wow.
posted by Talez at 6:18 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


"I swear she runs and hides when Trump comes on TV. And she's not the only tuxedo cat with good sense."

Everybody knows cats are for Johnson

Weird and self absorbed but overall harmless
posted by Tarumba at 6:19 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Major GOP Donors Are Asking Trump for Their Money Back

haha good luck with that, suckas
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Cats want to let the free market decide where they can and cannot barf.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:21 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


@ThePlumLineGS
"New Baldwin Wallace U. poll of Ohio, all taken post debate:

Clinton 43
Trump 34

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2016/10/new_ohio_poll_puts_hillary_cli.html"

I think this is the biggest Clinton lead I've seen in Ohio.
posted by chris24 at 6:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


if we're having Former First Lady Presidents now, can we have Michelle Obama next?

We're having former senator and secretary of state presidents, so no, we are not supporting Hillary Clinton as a means to a nudge-wink-sure-you can grow up to be president if you marry power, that's the right way to get it, just choose your early boyfriends well and hitch your wagon to a star, girls! Remember your husband always gets his turn first.

If Michelle Obama chooses to devote her post-First Lady life to more public service and has the kind of amazing success record that you'd have to have to be ready to run on it in eight years, we can all vote for her like crazy. She hasn't said those are her current career ambitions, but why pay attention to what she says?

Michelle Obama had an impressive early career, just like Hillary Clinton had, but all the wearisome meme-jokes about why can't she be president aren't about any of that. They are based on a superficial approval of the "mom in chief" who gives good speeches and looks nice and they are very far from being a compliment to her. She deserves more respect than this, as do all the women who have run for high political office in this country, which you can in fact do no matter who your husband is.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:25 AM on October 12, 2016 [123 favorites]


Next up on the 538 "snake" graphic are the Maine/Nebraska congressional districts, then Georgia, then Alaska.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Everybody knows cats are for Johnson

My cat has a better foreign policy background than Johnson.
posted by entropicamericana at 6:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [43 favorites]


Yeah, whenever people praise Michelle Obama, I totally agree with them on one level, but I also feel a bit sad. I think Michelle saw that she could be easily put into the box of Angry Black Woman and therefore took concrete steps to stay above the fray and just kill them with kindness, so to speak. It's not an accident that her pet project is Let's Move, which is about as inoffensive as it can be. So I think we're praising Michelle in part for playing her role well, and that role seems to be to sit back, work on the women's issues, and let her husband do the heavy lifting. She isn't really being praised for her amazing track record pre the Obama Presidency, or her law career (don't forget that she was senior to Barack when they first met).
posted by peacheater at 6:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


If Maine District 2 goes blue I will eat my shoes. The unique brand of Maine Republican is 100% a lock for Trumpism.
posted by selfnoise at 6:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Yeah my cats can name a historical foreign leader they respect, Meow Zedong
posted by localhuman at 6:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


I would like Jon Stewart to make a GOTV ad now. Please.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 6:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


. And you think we could get STV for the presidential election just like that? Wow.

I do. State legislatures get to decide how their electors are delegated, no? So there isn't anything standing in the way of the state legislature making the Presidential ballot STV. The Interstate Compact is an order of magnitude more difficult because by its own wording it can't go into effect until passed by a group of states with combined 270 electoral votes, so they can automatically be a bloc for the national popular vote.

And on the particular issue of third-party spoilers the Compact actually makes things worse because a third-party vote anywhere (not just in a swing state) becomes a potential spoiler.

To be clear, I am voting for Hillary and am happy to do so for a number of reasons, though I've typically voted Green in the past. What I'd like to see is a strong progressive environmental party that doesn't split the vote. And pragmatically, Democrats are not going to get that hard 2 percent of Green voters to switch by browbeating them; it hasn't worked in the past 16 years at least. So if you can't beat them, join 'm -- that is, make a way for them to register their first choice preference and also indicate their second-choice preference for the Democrats. I fail to see how this is not a win-win.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


The monster isn't Trump - he's just one of its many heads. The monster is their electorate, their riled up mob of ignorant, racist and misogynist haters, to whom they've been feeding base lies and dogwhistles.

Absolutely. The Republican elite can change their brand or their leaders all they want, but they can't change their base. How can they nominate someone who even looks moderate in 2020? It wouldn't even surprise me if Trump got the nomination again. He's shameless enough and the base is bloodthirsty enough.
posted by PlusDistance at 6:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Betsy Woodruff: Did Right-Wing Group Citizens United Target Dementia Sufferers for Fundraising?
Bell said her relative never sent that $50 check in the first place. Bell’s family had taken away the relative’s checkbook before she was hospitalized, so they knew she hadn’t sent a check. Moreover, how would Bossie know she had sent one if it never actually got to him?

Why would Citizens United send out a fundraising solicitation that appears to be a lie? Bell said she suspects the group designs mailers to prey on elderly people with memory loss.

“The fact that they’re sending this fraudulent piece of mail that says, ‘Oh, we didn’t get your $50’—that means they know the person has forgotten they didn’t send a check,” Bell said. “If you send them multiple pieces in a day, they’ll write a check for every piece because of dementia or Alzheimer’s.”

Bell said the mailers she saw from Citizens United seemed designed to scare elderly people into giving them money. A separate mailing touted Bossie’s former work in Congress—without, of course, mentioning the circumstances of his resignation.

She said she called the group multiple times trying to get her relative’s name taken off the list, but to no avail.
Trump lambasted Ted Cruz when his campaign sent out the infamous “voter violation” mailer before the Iowa caucuses. As of this story’s publication, Trump’s team has no comment on his deputy campaign manager’s use of similarly mendacious fundraising tactics.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [44 favorites]


And you think we could get STV for the presidential election just like that? Wow.

No, "in Democratic-controlled legislatures" is what he said; but it's difficult to get a political party to understand something, when its two-party system depends on not understanding it.
posted by XMLicious at 6:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Did Right-Wing Group Citizens United Target Dementia Sufferers for Fundraising?

This is my surprised face.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


No, "in Democratic-controlled legislatures" is what he said; but it's difficult to get a political party to understand something, when its two-party system depends on not understanding it.

The Democratic legislatures have already said their EVs are going to the national popular vote winner once 270 EVs agree. To throw the STV spanner into the works at this point would be fatal to the NPVIC which is arguably far more important.
posted by Talez at 6:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


(don't forget that she was senior to Barack when they first met).

I tried hard to forget it so I could be happier about him winning the primaries. He always repeated that line as a semi joke on himself whose only implicit punchline could be "and look at her now!" infuriated me, and what else were you supposed to take away from it?

(but yeah, she made her own choices. from among the ones available to her, which weren't and aren't so great as they should have been.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:40 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Arizona has turned blue on 538.

Just as a reminder, this was the 2008 electoral map. I know Pence is from Indiana, but aren't there more people there that hate him than support him? Why did Indiana go blue in 2008 but not 2012 or 2016?

I'd love to see either Georgia or Alaska turn over next.

Next up on the 538 "snake" graphic are the Maine/Nebraska congressional districts, then Georgia, then Alaska.

I started to write that I don't think either Emily Cain (D-Challenger) or Clinton has a shot at Maine District II, but apparently the newest polls show it to be a pretty tight race. Cain is fighting to unseat Rep. Bruce Poliquin, and if she can do it, it would be amazing not only because it would help dems take the House, but because Poliquin is one of LePage's closest advisers, and a vote against Poliquin is essentially a vote against LePage. Anyway, here's Emily Cain's website if you want to kick her a few bucks.
posted by anastasiav at 6:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Public service note for California voters -- if you have questions about the state ballot initiatives, or want to know how I'm voting (progressive queer feminist, registered Dem), hit me up in MeMail.

I think we could easily do a California ballot thread if anyone was up for that. There is SO much misinformation about some of the propositions. I am especially pissed off about the two that AIDS Healthcare Foundation are funding (60 and 61).
posted by Sophie1 at 6:42 AM on October 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


I know for me, this rhetoric about taking down the rich, "fair share" wealth distribution, 65% estate tax, all of this scares me and reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house. It makes it hard for me to hear and trust the Democrats on other matters, because I wonder how they all tie together and where their hard stop is. Sometimes I even want to, but it's hard.

I think I'm holding out a lot of hope that after the Republican Civil War, the reasonable voices will be the ones who win.


Sorry to be chiming in so late, corb, but like many here, I appreciate your perspective and wanted to respond.

First of all, the so-called "reasonable Republicans" push an economic policy virtually indistinguighable from Trump's -- massive tax cuts for the wealthy, deep cuts in regulations, likely cuts in social services -- but probably enough to cause pain without offsetting the tax cuts -- and increased spending on the military. "Reasonable Republicans" pledge not to countenance a tax increase under any circumstances. Reasonable Republicans ran Kansas and Louisiana's economies into the shredder.

Second, I would urge you to step back and recognize that what passes for the Left in the US is far, far from the Communist ideology of the Sandanistas. Democrats are a relatively liberal party, but as many pointed out during the primary, they are not very leftist. Even Bernie Sanders, about as liberal a politician as you're likely to find on the national stage, is a fairly middle-of-the-road socialist by European standards. Despite the accusations of Republicans back in the 50s and 60s, Democrats have never been about fostering Communist ideology.

If memory serves me correctly from studying Marxism back in my college political philosophy class, Marx predicted that the liberal bourgeoisie would institute reforms to appease the proletariat, but that it would ultimately be futile in staving off the ultimate revolution.

Well, maybe, but at least since the 1930s, Democratic policies proved him wrong. New Deal policies instead built a robust economy and a thriving middle class. Then along comes Ronald Reagan and his voodoo economics, and since then, practically all the gains in the economy have gone to the top 1%. Republicans have slashed capital gains taxes to the point that, as Warren Buffett has pointed out repeatedly, he pays a lower tax rate on his millions than his secretary does on the income she works for.

As others have pointed out, that kind of thing is what fosters revolution.

When Republicans agitate for eliminating the estate tax, their intent is not to keep the family home or farm from being taken away -- the exemptions run into the millions of dollars -- but to enable billionaires to hand unearned wealth to their heirs and effectively create a hereditary aristocracy. It was to prevent just such an occurrence that even the Founders established an estate tax.

Democrats favor a policy that rewards work at least as much as it does wealth, and does not seek to hand the wealthy even more advantages than they already enjoy. That's a far cry from the confiscatory policies of the Communists, no matter how much movement conservatives like Grover Norquist complain about it.

I want to emphasize that, as I've said before, your skepticism of motivations and desire for a check on liberal excesses is something the American political system vitally needs. We need competition between parties to curb excesses -- look at what happened to the Republicans when they gerrymandered themselves into safe districts! -- but it's interesting that although Democrats are also packed into (fewer) safe districts, not as many radicals have arisen on their side of the aisle. But the Republicans are so in the throes of an extreme ideology that they had to construct an entire alternative-reality bubble to prevent the facts that their policies do not work as advertised from leaking in. None of this is healthy for the Republic, so I join you in hoping the Republicans come to their senses, if only to avoid a long period in the political wilderness.
posted by Gelatin at 6:42 AM on October 12, 2016 [47 favorites]


can we have Michelle Obama next?

She's young - if we're going for strong women I say it's Dolly Parton next.
posted by Segundus at 6:43 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


if we're having Former First Lady Presidents now, can we have Michelle Obama next?

I'd love it, but she's made it clear she wants nothing more to do with Washington or politics, and I Cant. Fucking. Blame her. The only thing that makes me feel better about Obama leaving office is that it's exactly what he and his family want. They've spent eight years getting cannonaded with shit by idiots while he did great work in the hardest job in the world. It's time to let them go.
posted by PlusDistance at 6:45 AM on October 12, 2016 [42 favorites]


> "Anyway, here's Emily Cain's website if you want to kick her a few bucks."

Thanks, I did.
posted by kyrademon at 6:46 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Kellyanne Conway on Good Morning America complaining about lack of Republican support:

“Enough of the pussyfooting around about, do you support us or do you not support us?”

Are we not doing phrasing?
posted by chris24 at 6:47 AM on October 12, 2016 [92 favorites]


Actually, I'm good with taking a break from straight white men in the Oval Office for a few decades. Maybe we get our collective shit back together and whatnot.
posted by Mooski at 6:47 AM on October 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


A measure which everyone understands my take many years to accomplish. And which solves a pretty narrow problem. If legislators are concerned about conflict between STV and the Compact they can insert language nullifying STV when the Compact goes into effect.

I'm suggesting legislation that can be passed simply by one state which will immediately help a known issue for progressive electoral success. Why should it be postponed for the sake of fixing a thing that has only been a problem twice in US history?
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:48 AM on October 12, 2016


reminds me far too much of the Sandinistas who took my family's house

If you look more closely at the history of Nicaragua (and anywhere else in the settler colonial New World) it's house taking all the way down. Always worse when it's personal of course.
posted by spitbull at 6:50 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think we could easily do a California ballot thread if anyone was up for that. There is SO much misinformation about some of the propositions. I am especially pissed off about the two that AIDS Healthcare Foundation are funding (60 and 61).

Not to derail too much, but I'd love to see this. I've been spending a lot of time on Ballotpedia lately trying to make heads or tails of a few of these. I'm pretty sound in my choices on most of them, but both 51 and 61 are huge messes, and I'd definitely be happy to learn more. Also, the KQED propositions guide, and ballot.fyi
posted by themadthinker at 6:50 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh, and Clinton has taken a slim lead in the crazy, very Trump-friendly LA Times/USC poll. So the three polls that have come out polling completely after the 2nd debate:

1) Up 9 in Ohio
2) Tied in Utah
3) Ahead in LAT/USC
posted by chris24 at 6:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Brian Beutler: Hillary Clinton to Panicked Republicans: You’re on Your Own
The unambiguous message is that Clinton’s offer not to treat Trump as a totem of the Republican Party has expired. Obama underscored the shift in strategy this week when he upbraided these Republicans for sticking with Trump through disgrace after disgrace. “Why’d it take so long for some of them to finally walk away?” he asked. The Democratic super PAC Priorities USA has seemingly picked up these signals and will begin airing ads in Senate battlegrounds in the coming days.

Clinton’s conservative critics will surely object that her magnanimous-sounding offer was always a feint. But consider that until the Republican Party descended into total chaos, Republican candidates were doing a pretty good job decoupling themselves from Trump without much Democratic resistance. Incumbent GOP senators in every competitive state were running significantly ahead of him, aided in some measure by Clinton’s consistent message that Trump is an altogether different beast.
[...]
Clinton’s critics in the Democratic Party will wonder whether she should have recognized this earlier—whether it’s be too late now to leash Trump to these cynical Republicans in time to defeat them, and maximize Democratic Party gains on Capitol Hill. I’m skeptical that one strategic approach was clearly superior to the other. Clinton and Obama would’ve looked like geniuses if she’d managed to sustain her post-convention lead on the strength of Republican disunity and crossover support; instead she looks can claim to have made a meaningful gesture that Republicans rejected until it was too late. At some level, I suspect she knew it was an offer they wouldn’t accept—in part because victory still appeared to be in reach, and in part because Republicans really did beget Trumpism. Now that they realize the magnitude of their error, she’s decided to stop excusing them. Now that their voters are starting to peel away, I suspect that she’ll be quick to remind them who had Trump’s back when.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:54 AM on October 12, 2016 [33 favorites]


Looking at the percentages, 538 says that Alaska has about the same chance of going blue as Ohio does going red.
posted by KathrynT at 6:54 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


"Enough of the pussyfooting around about, do you support us or do you not support us?”

Are we not doing phrasing?


We are most definitely doing phrasing. Calling potential GOP defectors pussies is pure Trumpism, up to and including gratuitously alienating moderates (who they believe don't really exist).
posted by argybarg at 6:55 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Everybody knows cats are for Johnson

Stare into the eyes of the pic in my profile and back away slowly when you say that, says Kitty-O (as in Jackie O).

She was for Bernie in the primaries. We had some arguments about it. Mostly I've healed up though. For her it wasn't about the bankers and such but about the goddamn bird thing. She says anyone who can make birds come to them is a divinity.

Anyway now she's a solid Hillary vote. Cuz Bernie said so.
posted by spitbull at 6:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


Looking at the percentages, 538 says that Alaska has about the same chance of going blue as Ohio does going red.

And there is a greater likelihood of Texas going blue than there is of Pennsylvania going red.
posted by argybarg at 6:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Calling potential GOP defectors pussies is pure Trumpism

Oh I agree they want to emasculate defectors. It would just be a bit more effective if she wasn't reminding people that he's bleeding votes for saying he likes to grab pussy.
posted by chris24 at 6:59 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


It's been fun to see all three 538 models climbing this week.
posted by zutalors! at 6:59 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


[Just as a quick reminder, these threads are long, and fill up fast, so let's try to not go down every conversational side path (ie Michelle Obama is not running for president, and we've discussed the Sandinistas and Corb's family home many times before). Also, folks seem to be getting a tad bit restive, but please Dog let's not start up again with fights about Bernie Sanders, or pointless goading about Jill Stein (a couple deleted on that). There's enough excitement in the main show.]
posted by taz at 7:01 AM on October 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


TMZ: We're told Bush is upset because he feels like a scapegoat ... no one at NBC had a problem with him until the footage leaked, and when NBC had a PR problem they just cut him loose.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


The unambiguous message is that Clinton’s offer not to treat Trump as a totem of the Republican Party has expired.

The thing that sucks about that is at least a healthy percentage of Republicans have been planning to vote Clinton - not as many elected officials as I would like, but it's a real crossover that has been happening. It turns out she didn't need them to win, but those people switched over in good faith. It'd really suck after people have been going out on a limb that Hillary Clinton supports honest disagreement, and it's safe to vote for her, she pulled the rug out from under them now.
posted by corb at 7:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Rude Pundit: Trump Didn't Start the Fire, but You Fuckers Can Still Burn
I'm not even giving a pass to conservatives who were anti-Trump from the start. Go fuck yourself, George W. and George H.W. Bush, who pushed anti-woman policies and judges. Eat shit, Lindsey Graham, who pimps war like it's the last pretty boy in the gigolo house on a late Saturday night. You fuckers aren't noble. You're just lucky you could identify someone worse than you are.
posted by gaspode at 7:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


Exclusive: USA TODAY survey shows that a quarter of elected top Republicans won't endorse Trump

"Twenty-six percent of Republican governors and members of Congress are refusing to endorse GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump, according to a survey by the USA TODAY Network.

Of the 31 Republican governors, 54 GOP senators and the 246 Republican members of the House (331 total), the survey identified 87 who are not endorsing Trump's candidacy as of late Tuesday.

It is an extraordinary demonstration of the fracture Trump’s candidacy has revealed in the Republican Party. There is no precedent in modern American political history for elected officials of either party to refuse en masse to support their presidential nominee. It shows that Trump will have to wage a national campaign without the fleet of surrogates and supporters that every other presidential contender has relied on for decades to help bring voters to the polls. And it illustrates how hard it will be for the GOP to rebuild if Trump loses."
posted by chris24 at 7:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Huh. The president of the Iowa Federation of Republican Women just resigned because the group pledges to support the entire Republican ticket, and she says she can't do that this election. It's sort of hard for me to get that enthused, though, about someone who was apparently just fine with Steve King but thinks that Trump is just a bridge too far.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [33 favorites]


> Yes, I wish there wasn't even going to be a third debate. Why bother?

I think I'm going to skip watching it, just follow it through the MeFi thread instead. I "enjoyed" the second debate, for certain perverse values of "enjoy," but I didn't sleep well afterwards, and my wife and I have noticed we're increasingly filled with angst and undirected rage. This election season is the most toxic I can remember, and I remember 1968, 1972, and 1980.
posted by languagehat at 7:08 AM on October 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


TMZ: We're told Bush is upset because he feels like a scapegoat ... no one at NBC had a problem with him until the footage leaked, and when NBC had a PR problem they just cut him loose.

Cry me a fucking river, you revolting, feckless twerp.
posted by dersins at 7:08 AM on October 12, 2016 [83 favorites]


@paulkrugman
"I think I'm seeing a shift in media narrative, from hyping the supposedly close election to Trump disaster porn. This could be a big deal."
posted by chris24 at 7:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [69 favorites]


I wish there wasn't even going to be a third debate. Why bother?

My friend who works for the local news, and covered the RNC and the first debate, is supposed to go to Vegas for the final debate. He's still a little bit concerned that it won't happen.

He really likes to gamble.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


All alone, across the sea
When your people say they hate you
Don't come crawling back to me
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Pence has a terrible record, zero warmth, flat lizardy eyes, and a smile like a rictus. I'm not worried about his 2020 run against Hilary.
posted by emjaybee at 7:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Hillarys for President
Policy wonk. Pragmatist. Truth-twister. There are many versions of Clinton—and we’ll need them all to navigate the political chaos unleashed by Trump.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


So, they are just going to let Donald have his phone every day now, huh?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:15 AM on October 12, 2016


It'd really suck after people have been going out on a limb that Hillary Clinton supports honest disagreement, and it's safe to vote for her, she pulled the rug out from under them now.

That's... not what's happening. The change in messaging identified in the Beutler piece is that she's not going to continue reaching out her hand to the remaining Trump dead-enders. It's not like she's moving away from any particular position that would alienate Republicans, because she really didn't move in any direction to get their support in the first place. Her appeal to them was little more than "seriously, this fucking guy?" She's still not Donald Trump, so why would those who responded to that message feel jilted now that she's not holding the door open for those who still haven't come around?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:17 AM on October 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Hashtag NoShackles
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:18 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


She's still not Donald Trump, so why would those who responded to that message feel jilted now that she's not holding the door open for those who still haven't come around?

Because they've spent three decades desperately looking for--and outright inventing--bullshit reasons to hate her, so why stop now?
posted by dersins at 7:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


Corb, one thing that I truly believe is that the smart thing to do for Democrats is look for reasonable consensus and offer an olive branch to nevertrump Republicans. I am familiar with many conflicts around the world where, the perfect being the enemy of the good, chances for rebuilding were wasted.

I know this won't be a popular opinion with many liberals, but this is a real chance we have at ending the long term divisiveness that has affected this country and actively fed all the vitriol we see today.

If Trump can be of any use, it will be as the enemy that will unite us left and right. I hope we Democrats can remember that our motto is "stronger together" , and that requires a degree of compromise.

Someone else said it before here on MeFi. We need the left to ensure service provision, and we need the right to ensure fiscal responsibility. If we can rescue the sane part from the right we can easily outnumber the alt-right and move the country forward.
posted by Tarumba at 7:21 AM on October 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Corb- Clinton was offering this to the Republican Party representatives, i.e. The house and senate, that she would work with them.

I don't think she's going fuck you to Republican citizens, just at this point, it has been shown that there truly is no Republican Party in Washington to work with. There is no leadership and those who would have been leaders are failing so hard at their job I think backing away and waiting for the dust to clear is fine.

And I'm sorry but the republicans have spent the last eight years throwing out obstructionist tactics the entire time. Maybe if they managed to appoint a Supreme Court nominee instead of being terrified of being purged because that's the right thing to do, it could show some merit of instead of just being people who want to facilitate the narrative that enables Trump (the government doesn't work for you, it's broken, mostly because the republicans have tried their hardest to do that).
posted by mrzarquon at 7:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Hey corb -- just wanted to say ... whatever happens among those running for elected office, you, personally, have made me feel more warmly about moderate Republicans than I have at any time since 2000, when I came to the conclusion that the entire party had betrayed the principles of democracy and was irrevocably tainted along with everyone who chose to associate with it. I still disagree with the Republican party on almost every core concept, from economics to foreign policy to climate change science to the rights of minorities, women, and voters, often passionately, and that is extremely unlikely to change. But nonetheless, the mere fact that there is a wing of the Republican party, some percentage, any percentage, that could look at Donald Trump and from the beginning say, "No; this is an ignoramus. This is a fascist. This is a monster. This cannot be allowed to happen here." ... That gives me hope that someday, somehow, in years that will come, there might be a rational dialogue again at the national level.
posted by kyrademon at 7:25 AM on October 12, 2016 [105 favorites]


Tarumba: We need the left to ensure service provision, and we need the right to ensure fiscal responsibility.

But the right doesn't do that. At all.
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:25 AM on October 12, 2016 [65 favorites]


And the Mormons might come out of this election looking like the most principled Christians in America.

If you make the slight adjustment to conservative Christians*, then yes, absolutely. Mormons are putting evangelicals to shame in their willingness to recognize what Trump is and vote accordingly. I suspect that's because Mormons are perpetual outsiders except in Utah, and haven't enjoyed the same place at the political table that evangelicals have. Power has corrupted the evangelical establishment.

*No one ever pays attention to liberal Christians, but we're here. Been here a long time now.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [83 favorites]


If anything it's time for members of the Republican Party to acknowledge your party probably doesn't serve your interest, and will say anything to retain power for the billionaire energy execs who fund it, including allowing for a racist sexual abuser to be at the top of the ticket.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


I believe Trump has been losing the overall Catholic vote all along.

But yeah, I can totally see him turning on LDS voters.

Did anyone note him threatening Florida voters last night?
posted by spitbull at 7:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


guiseroom: Poll: Trump falls into tie with Clinton among Utah voters

Who do Utahns support in the presidential election if the election were held today:
HRC: 26%
DJT: 26%
Egg McMuffin: 22%!!!
Google Gary Johnson: 14%
(Polling likely Utah voters, +/- 4.4% margin of error)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I mean, threatening people is pretty much trumps entire campaign strategy.
posted by valkane at 7:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


MSNBC showing people early voting in Cleveland right now.

Also tomorrow, President Obama is having an Early Voting event in Cleveland for Hillary Clinton's campaign.
posted by cashman at 7:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


It'd really suck after people have been going out on a limb that Hillary Clinton supports honest disagreement, and it's safe to vote for her, she pulled the rug out from under them now.

The article clearly points out that she's not going to reach out to the ones who stuck by him until an arbitrary point. In fact, the point is made in the next two sentences after the one you chose to quote.

But yes, at some point, those Republicans who choose to support her will have to make a choice between continuing their support for her or if they're going to go back to being 99.5% opposed to her. There are several major issues where those Republicans are not just out of step with her, but of reality itself. For starters, continuing to support voter ID and other voter suppression laws that have proven almost universally to be both racist and ineffective at stopping the kind of voter fraud that decides elections has to be abandoned, otherwise they're just making noise while supporting a revival of Jim Crow. And on anthropogenic climate change, and specifically the utterly discredited arguments about how just letting the free market deal with it will cost less in both economic and human costs, it's time for those Republicans to come around. Those are just a few examples, but I feel like "not supporting cartoonishly racist laws" and "working to solve the greatest threat to humanity" should be easy bars to clear.

I know this won't be a popular opinion with many liberals, but this is a real chance we have at ending the long term divisiveness that has affected this country and actively fed all the vitriol we see today.

At this point, it's clear that this has meant conservatives pulling the country further to the right. That's the problem that created Trump. At some point, conservatives have to offer something more, which has thus far not been much in evidence.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:32 AM on October 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


If you make the slight adjustment to conservative Christians*, then yes, absolutely. Mormons are putting evangelicals to shame in their willingness to recognize what Trump is and vote accordingly. I suspect that's because Mormons are perpetual outsiders except in Utah, and haven't enjoyed the same place at the political table that evangelicals have. Power has corrupted the evangelical establishment.

*No one ever pays attention to liberal Christians, but we're here. Been here a long time now.


Sorry - this was what I meant! I know there are liberal Christians, but they never seem to present as a unified voting block the way conservative Christians do.

That's why I wish Clinton had spoken more about her faith on the campaign trail. Despite being an atheist, I find her good-works-based version of Christianity to be very compelling, and I wouldn't mind seeing a whole hell of a lot more Christians like her in public life - but where are they? If they exist, they, like her, seem not to ever really talk about it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


Because they've spent three decades desperately looking for--and outright inventing--bullshit reasons to hate her, so why stop now?

I have a friend. He's mostly a pretty decent guy. But he's a straight-up brogressive. I'm pretty sure he gets 95% of his political ideas from Opie & Anthony or whoever replaced them. So, basically: LGBT rights are important, climate change is a problem, legal weed would be nice, but Muslims, and maybe blacks, are savages and, of course, Hillary Clinton is Literally Hitler.

Pretty sure he was a Bernie-or-Buster. He's in the "they're both terrible" camp right now, and it's infuriating. This is a smart person who first, barely cares about anybody other than himself, and second, can't see past the twenty-five-year smear campaign against the Clintons.

The good news, I guess, is that he doesn't vote anyway. Which I suppose is the hallmark of people like him: impotent rage against shadows.
posted by uncleozzy at 7:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


From the Salt Lake Tribune endorsement:
Clinton's devotion to making the world a better place for the less fortunate, especially children, has been the core of her whole career. She sees the threats of terror abroad, gun violence at home and climate change globally and has plans to address all of that, and more.

She recognizes the unfairness of those who lack access to health care and those at the short end of extreme economic inequality. She would make tax policy more equitable and work to help the poor climb out of their misery.

She has stood up for religious freedom around the world, even in dealing with regimes such as China, where it was a risky position to take.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [58 favorites]


*No one ever pays attention to liberal Christians, but we're here. Been here a long time now.

I'm a secular humanist but was christened Anglican and have read the bible including reading the New Testament more than once. I still have to routinely school "evangelical" in-laws about what Jesus actually said and WWJD. I'm thankful that I've only had to use 1 Timothy 2:12 once in my life.
posted by Talez at 7:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'm supremely disappointed this thread title was not "They will tear each other into pieces, Jesus Christ, this will be fun!"
posted by MoonOrb at 7:35 AM on October 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


I mean all you really should have to know from Jesus can be distilled down to this image. Everything else is secondary.
posted by Talez at 7:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


Oh, and in local news, this happened.


Police: Trump supporter threatens black woman in Albany
55-year-old white man faces aggravated harassment charge

By Emily Masters Published 7:01 am, Wednesday, October 12, 2016
posted by mikelieman at 7:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


"They will tear each other into pieces, Jesus Christ, this will be fun!"

DadadaDAHda
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


Friend in Cleveland has just voted after waiting 50 minutes due to an unexpectedly long line. She described the other people in the line as "obviously solid Hillary support". Some (more) nice pictures of Ohio lines today: [1] [2]
posted by Wordshore at 7:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


Huh, so this is interesting: Here's the (pretty boring) list of events in the greater Portland area for the Clinton campaign. They have a regular "brunch and calling" event on Sundays called "Brunch for Hillary" -- except! -- the one on October 23rd has a different title: Brunch for Hil and Bill.

Wonder if we're getting a campaign stop at the end of October?
posted by anastasiav at 7:39 AM on October 12, 2016


I know Corb is our only avowed Republican on this thread, but I feel like it's worth asking what a healthy/positive Republican party would even look like? If you drop sexism, racism, homophobia, what do you have left that they stand for? Just a general hatred of taxes uncoupled from any understanding of their necessity for a functioning society?

I feel like they're not going to know for a long time. I sure don't. I hope that some of them, somewhere, are ready to do that thinking, otherwise the Democratic party is going to be the only choice for increasing numbers of us. And as much as I like voting blue, I think a healthy democracy needs more than one party.

I'm happy Clinton is winning, and many hateful people are getting burned by this eleciton, but once the schadenfreude wears off, I want to have a clear idea of what kind of elections, what kind of parties, we should have to work towards.
posted by emjaybee at 7:39 AM on October 12, 2016 [63 favorites]


If Maine District 2 goes blue I will eat my shoes. The unique brand of Maine Republican is 100% a lock for Trumpism.

The 538 D snake just ate ME-2. Would you like me to buy you a bottle of Worcestershire Sauce? I hear it helps with eating shoe leather.
posted by Talez at 7:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


"But the right doesn't do that. At all."

That's not what I've seen. So many people on the right have chosen principles over party. I see that as an opportunity. I agree that the leadership seems to have their head up their ass, but if we lead by example and work with them we can bring them over to collaboration.

I mean for example McCain, sure he tolerated way too much for Trump, but even during the 2008 elections he was adamant that Obama is a good, respectable man. I think we can work with that.

Our other option is to wait until Republicans spontaneously become liberals before we can work with them, which sounds a little unrealistic to me.

It sort of reminds me about how many of us (women) paired up with non feminist guys who were essentially good people but clueless and privileged. In my case it wasn't my duty to explain things to my husband, but I sure as shit don't regret the work I put in now that I see him furious about rape culture. At least in relationships you have a choice to be alone and happy, but in politics you don't. That seems a more compelling argument for collaboration to me.
posted by Tarumba at 7:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


If you're tired of the soft music and rolling hills in Clinton's previous ads, her new one is METAL! As in 80s hair metal. And it's devastating.
posted by PlusDistance at 7:42 AM on October 12, 2016 [54 favorites]


I mean we ask conservatives to look at the bigger picture and not sit out this election because of what Trump represents. We should practice what we preach and be prepared to make some compromise if that will keep the alt right at bay.
posted by Tarumba at 7:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Surprising that Gob Bush didn't show up in that ad.
posted by pxe2000 at 7:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


it's worth asking what a healthy/positive Republican party would even look like?

I think what you have left is sort of Libertarian Lite. Socially middle-of-the-road (not openly bigoted but not on board with leftist understandings of privilege and systematic oppression), fiscally conservative, without being quite as "burn it all down!" as Libertarians tend to be. I mean, I still think it's wrongheaded and willfully misunderstands how the world actually works, but it's not quite so outrageously evil.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


I'm interested to see how far devoted Trump supporters can ride this cognitive dissonance/denial train. There doesn't seem to be a limit to what they can rationalize.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I mean for example McCain, sure he tolerated way too much for Trump, but even during the 2008 elections he was adamant that Obama is a good, respectable man. I think we can work with that.

That was the absolute minimum to be expected of him, not some sort of compromise.

Our other option is to wait until Republicans spontaneously become liberals before we can work with them, which sounds a little unrealistic to me.

No, that's not the only other option. There's a wide variety of policy issues that they could compromise on (two of which I outlined above) that don't require them to become liberals. If joining the reality-based community on basic civil rights is somehow too far a stretch for them to be considered a compromise, then the responsibility or blame that can be laid at the feet of the of the left is approximately 0%.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


I am trying very hard to keep up with these threads and of course it isn't working, but I wanted to say something about Paul Ryan and his behavior.

It's always seemed to me like Paul Ryan wants to be seen as a wise leader. He wants people to look to him for guidance and dispense wisdom and have people be impressed by his understanding of nuance and clarity of thought. He wants to be presented with problems, think them through, and give Solomonic answers in the style of a Philospher-King. Unfortunately, the only asset he has to help him achieve this goal is his big sad eyes. He is simply not a smart man, and he is not a man of principle either.

I think he got the (correct) idea somewhere that true leaders are flexible, and willing and able to change their minds as they get new information, and that wisdom includes the ability to reflect and come to new conclusions and to see nuance and come up with creative solutions.

Unfortunately for Paul Ryan, he is pretty dumb! He has these big eyes that make it look like he's thoughtful but there's nothing going on behind them. I think his wavering support and his "do what's in your heart" and his "I'm not endorsing but I'm not UNendorsing" nonsense are his attempts to be a wise leader; I think he sees these moves as flexibility and subtlety because he deeply, profoundly does not understand what wisdom or leadership are but he has internalized some basic ideas about them. My theory is that Paul Ryan's ultimate goal is to be a wise and thoughtful conservative leader and he simply has absolutely no idea how to make this happen and the result is that when he doesn't understand what's happening (which is often) he attempts to compensate by declining to settle on a single course of action and mistakes this for a creative solution to a complicated issue.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:49 AM on October 12, 2016 [62 favorites]


I feel like it's worth asking what a healthy/positive Republican party would even look like? If you drop sexism, racism, homophobia, what do you have left that they stand for?

Low taxes, of course. More decisions taking place at the local and state level, with the federal government primarily focused on defense and maybe social security/medicare. Stronger borders/ carefully controlled immigration in a way that isn't overtly racist. I could envision a Republican party that sincerely wanted federal government slimmed down and limited and whose vision of America was 50 very distinct states who only cooperated on things that truly require a national response. That's not necessarily an offensive vision, just (I think) impractical. But then, I'd love to see state governments largely dissolved, except as convenient administrative districts for an all-powerful federal government that created consistent policy nationwide.

I'm tired of taking a new driving test every time I move to a new state.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:50 AM on October 12, 2016 [68 favorites]


her new one is METAL

This video was directed and produced by diamond Joe Biden in my head canon.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


One gets the sense that Paul Ryan thinks that cutting the baby in half was the right solution.
posted by one_bean at 7:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [63 favorites]


his "I'm not endorsing but I'm not UNendorsing" nonsense are his attempts to be a wise leader

Remember, folks -- Solomon's plan to split the baby was a bluff.
posted by PlusDistance at 7:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


"If joining the reality-based community on basic civil rights is somehow too far a stretch for them to be considered a compromise, then the responsibility or blame that can be laid at the feet of the of the left is approximately 0%."

Is blame what matters though? If the alt right becomes more active and aggressive because the rest of us continued to be divided it will be small comfort to know that the left is not responsible, when minorities are being targeted. I think results are more important than assigning blame to groups.
posted by Tarumba at 7:53 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


My theory is that Paul Ryan's ultimate goal is to be a wise and thoughtful conservative leader and he simply has absolutely no idea how to make this happen and the result is that when he doesn't understand what's happening (which is often) he attempts to compensate by declining to settle on a single course of action and mistakes this for a creative solution to a complicated issue.

This is giving Ryan far, far too much credit. The Zombie Eyed Granny Starver's only goal is to cut taxes for his paymasters, and destroy the welfare state for the undeserving, along with every positive function of government. That's it. His motivations are not more complicated or more noble than that.

His puppy dog eyes and fitness cover shoots are the tools he uses to mask his monstrous agenda, not an indication of the purity of his intent hidden just below the surface.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:54 AM on October 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


"But because several of the Democratic candidate’s policy positions are so manifestly incompatible with Christian reverence for the lives of the most vulnerable"

kirkaracha: What? Is this just abortion?

T.D. Strange: Yes. Most vulnerable is code for "unborn babies"

oneswellfoop: And "unborn babies" is code for "single-celled fertilized eggs".

Which gets us all the way back to slut-shaming - no responsibility for the guy who got the lady pregnant, it's all about the woman who was so sinful as to fornicate out of wedlock. Her life then matters less than what could become a child, because that's a woman's role in the world: make more Christian babies. At least to some Christians, including those who stand against Democrats on principal of "protect the unborn babies" (who aren't really babies, but could be, if the woman doesn't naturally miscarry, which is then totally God's will; unless the mother-to-be did something foolish with her body, then she's a monster).
posted by filthy light thief at 7:55 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


The Go Vote video is very interesting. It's clearly aimed at black voters - but it resonated very powerfully with me (not black, not voter, not American) through its message of progress, equality and confidence.

If this is the quality of the Democratic messaging, and if they're going to throw the war chest behind the media campaign in the final weeks, it's going to hammer several nails in that coffin lid.
posted by Devonian at 7:56 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


One gets the sense that Paul Ryan thinks that cutting the baby in half was the right solution.

Right, exactly; he's not smart and he's not good or kind and those are important qualities in a leader but he lacks the self-awareness to recognize this about himself so he comes up with things that look to him like leadership but are just terrible nonsense.

I seriously think that if he didn't have big mournful eyes that make him look like he's thoughtful and maybe suffering just a little bit under the weight of his (non-existent) commitment to responsible decision-making no one would ever listen to him.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:56 AM on October 12, 2016 [22 favorites]


If the alt right becomes more active and aggressive because the rest of us continued to be divided it will be small comfort to know that the left is not responsible, when minorities are being targeted.

Supporting voter suppression laws is targeting minorities. If conservatives insist on supporting it despite all the evidence showing it targeting minorities, then how much does that differentiate them from the alt-right in the first place?
posted by zombieflanders at 7:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [29 favorites]


What I continue not to understand is - if a person sincerely believes that abortion is murder, how in hell do they justify making an exception in cases of rape or incest? If it's murder, it's murder! I genuinely find it more reasonable to oppose it in all cases than to oppose it in all cases "except for rape."
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


This is giving Ryan far, far too much credit. The Zombie Eyed Granny Starver's only goal is to cut taxes for his paymasters, and destroy the welfare state for the undeserving, along with every positive function of government. That's it. His motivations are not more complicated or more noble than that.

His puppy dog eyes and fitness cover shoots are the tools he uses to mask his monstrous agenda, not an indication of the purity of his intent hidden just below the surface.


Sorry, I genuinely DID NOT mean to give Paul Ryan credit for anything; I don't mean he actually wants to be a good leader, I mean he wants to roleplay his idea of a good leader. I don't think he gives a fuck about actual leadership, he just wants people to take him seriously and be seen as a resource for wisdom. I don't think he has any desire AT ALL to be a caring or responsible human being and I don't think he could if tried (which he won't).
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]




I just told my two immediate coworkers about the now-dead "Win the Trump Truck" fantasy. I finished and shrugged and said "eh, I still can vote."

....A moment later, one of them said, "huh. I wonder if my registration went through?" I told her she could check with the Board of elections web site. A moment later she said "yay, it did!"

A moment after that the other one asked "hey, what's that site you checked?..."

I encouraged two voters to register today w00t
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:59 AM on October 12, 2016 [71 favorites]


That New Republic article that kirkaracha posted might be useful to share with any friends who are leaning Hillary but are still swimming around in the "but I just don't trust her" tub. It concedes her flaws but then makes a pretty cogent argument that she might not be the President all of us want, but she's most definitely the President the country needs, precisely because of what are perceived to be her flaws. tl;dr making the sausage has to be done by someone and Hillary has been expertly making sausage for decades. You don't have to enjoy watching it, but if you want a beer brat, someone does have to make it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


I'm just waiting for Trump to threaten to investigate and jail Ryan and McCain for failing to support him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


As a brown immigrant woman I feel a lot safer with your average conservative than with a Trump supporter. I would much rather work with a McCain than a Trump.
posted by Tarumba at 8:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Pence has a terrible record, zero warmth, flat lizardy eyes, and a smile like a rictus. I'm not worried about his 2020 run against Hilary.

He's also very smooth, clever, and unrattleable in back-and-forth, as we saw in the vice-pres debates. I would be worried about a Pence vs Hillary debate. My consolation is I kind of doubt he's able to channel the blood-soaked moxie that carried Trump through this primary, and he's more likely to meet the same fate in the 2020 Republican primary that folks like Bush/Rubio/Perry did in 2016.
posted by Greg Nog at 8:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


So, a couple things on this "what do we want out of the post-Trump Republican Party?" discussion.

First, the goalposts have moved a lot during Obama's presidency. In a lot of ways, Obamacare more closely represents the healthcare plan that McCain ran on than what Obama was originally proposing. There's a huge place for essentially market-driven solutions to public policy problems. I want the Republican party to be the ones championing those--partly because I want the Democrats championing more socialistic solutions.

Second, I want to see a Republican party that's extremely vocal on the ills of government surveillance. Since I've started following digital rights issues, I've had to change my opinions on a lot of Republicans in congress--many of them are the ones holding the NSA and FBI's feet to the fire. Remember, we're about to elect a president who doesn't really believe in your right to use encryption. We desperately need opposition.
posted by roll truck roll at 8:01 AM on October 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


Friend in Cleveland has just voted after waiting 50 minutes due to an unexpectedly long line. She described the other people in the line as "obviously solid Hillary support". Some (more) nice pictures of Ohio lines today: [1] [2]

From someone born and raised in NE Ohio: this warmed my heart this morning.
posted by rp at 8:02 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Pence's positions are pretty unpopular, and his approval rating in Indiana is abysmal. Even Indiana Republicans hate the guy. If it weren't for Trump sucking all the oxygen out of the room, the Clinton campaign would have been attacking Pence far more. I don't think he could survive a general election, even though he is admittedly a very good talker.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:03 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


And that man's name was Scott Baio Booth.
posted by y2karl at 8:04 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Can we all agree that there is a spectrum of Republicans, the same way there is a spectrum of Democrats and everything else. Do you think, FOR ONE MINUTE, that Hillary and co. have no awareness of nuance? That they don't grasp the difference between a Trumpist and a woman who has lived in Idaho, voted Republican her entire life, is anti-choice and is feeling nauseated by Trump? Give me a break. She is really, really freaking smart and she no more puts all Republicans into one basket than any other group.

Critical thinking FTW.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


I don't want Clinton to offer any "olive branch". The Democrats have offered whole orchards of olive branches to the Republicans at this point - we've given away almost everything that made the Democratic party worthwhile, which is why Sanders had traction.

Let the Republicans offer us some olive branches for a change - "we will behave like normal people and fill court vacancies with only reasonable amounts of quibbling"; "when we see rising economic inequality devastating people's health and wellbeing, we will not stand in the way of moderate reform backed by policy expertise or demand more tax cuts"; "we will not fight attempts to rebuild our physical infrastructure"; "when we see statistics that show dramatic racial inequality, we will not stand in the way of reforms that are backed by historical example and policy expertise but will stand up to our white base when our white base says things that are totally untrue and paranoid". Those are the olive branches I want to see. Republicans who can respect the rule of law and the common good instead of stanning for inequality and human misery might be worth working with - McMuffin and leftward, I guess - but no olive branches for the rest of them.
posted by Frowner at 8:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [145 favorites]




Sing or Swim: It's okay to take the skepticism quotes off of 'fair share'. We live in a country where Donald Trump, a billionaire, pays no taxes. Maintenance of the country's roads, bridges, libraries, schools, fire departments, etc., etc., is left to the working poor.

Related: Panama: The Hidden Trillions (MetaFilter thread)
“The economic system is, basically, that the rich and the powerful exited long ago from the messy business of paying tax,” [Luke Harding, a former Moscow correspondent for The Guardian] told an audience of academics and research students. “They don’t pay tax anymore, and they haven’t paid tax for quite a long time. We pay tax, but they don’t pay tax. The burden of taxation has moved inexorably away from multinational companies and rich people to ordinary people.”
There are legal loopholes, er "business incentives," in the US tax code, plus there are offshore tax havens, of which Panama is just one. The working poor can't pay someone to find all the deductions for their personal taxes, let alone set up companies to take losses that they can write off, and they definitely don't hire lawyers to set up tax shelters.

Want to make America great again and patch $3.6 trillion of infrastructure improvements by 2020 (American Society for Civil Engineers Infrastructure Report Card, which has always been bad, in part because the US doesn't invest infrastructure like it should, and because CEs would like more work to fix these problems)? Make the wealthy and their corporations pay their fair share.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


"Trump is a self-celebratig sexual predator", says former Canadian Prime minister Kim Campbell
posted by chapps at 8:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


I know Corb is our only avowed Republican on this thread, but I feel like it's worth asking what a healthy/positive Republican party would even look like? If you drop sexism, racism, homophobia, what do you have left that they stand for? Just a general hatred of taxes uncoupled from any understanding of their necessity for a functioning society?

My traditional explanation of the modern Republican party is that is a coalition of several factions:

* Fiscal conservatives. Deregulate everything, slash taxes, let corporations run the nation, more money for us fuck you.

* Religious conservatives. Four score and seven years ago the Bible told me so, and that's good enough to be the basis of civil and criminal law.

* Xenophobes. The nature of the beast; to want to bomb the shit out of that which is different. This is a local country, for local people, there's nothing for you here.

* The traditional power brokers. We have a nation of authoritarian-identifying sheep just crying out for some Big Strong Leaders to prop up, so by cracky it might as well be us.

There are overlaps between these groups, of course. Such as Prosperity Gospel types, i.e. if you were a decent person worthy of assistance you wouldn't need it, or Libertarians, i.e. all regulation should be abolished except for the parts that let me control what you do, or Evangelicals, i.e. why haven't we bombed the Arabs back to the stone age so that Israel can take it all over and Jesus can come back? Likewise, there are full-blown Bullshit Fundamentalists and there are those who simply identify slightly more with what the Republican Party claims to stand for than with its opponents' credos.

They have spent decades building up populist boils and now they have come to a head. The country has been overrun by Angry Loud White People who are demanding that Their Country be Returned To Normal, where Normal means that they're in charge, everyone else knows their place, and the ideas that homosexuals, transfolk, women, Muslims, immigrants, liberals, and other groups that are Not Them have equal rights are discarded with prejudice.

Not all Republican ideas and principles are inherently wrong. But the preceding paragraph? 100% fucked up and bullshit. When Trump loses, those people are not going away.

The Republican Party has a choice at that point. It's not a new choice for them. They can either embrace the anger, institutionally -- standing with Tea Partiers and House Freedom Caucus members and bomb-throwing dingbats and saying Yes, we will obstruct everything that Communist Muslim Murderer Hillary wants because she's a Sulfur-Ridden Demon from Hell -- or they can repudiate it, and say outright that if the bigot vote is how they get elected, they don't want it, that _they_ are the true conservatives and that they can be conservative without losing their humanity. But they need to say that loudly, clearly, and without backsliding once their poll numbers drop.

And they will drop. Because there are areas of this country in which only a Louie Gohmert can win. But that's how you get a Republican Party again, by pointing to outright hatred and sexism and xenophobia and saying No, You Are Not Welcome Here.
posted by delfin at 8:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


For years, some people, mostly on the left, have been concerned about possible tampering with electronic voting machines and about whether they correctly report votes. Proposed solutions are either voter-marked paper ballots or machines with a voter-verified paper audit trail. (I think the latter is better; see Florida 2000 for issues with voter-marked ballots.)

If, post-election, the alt-right feels that the election was "stolen," I wonder if that can be transformed into increased support for more tamper-resistant voting methods?
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I'd love to see state governments largely dissolved, except as convenient administrative districts for an all-powerful federal government that created consistent policy nationwide.

Jesus, what I wouldn't give for a centralized Federally-funded equitable nationwide grade school system instead of resting on the tax bases of tiny local school districts
posted by Greg Nog at 8:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [97 favorites]


Jesus, what I wouldn't give for a centralized Federally-funded equitable nationwide grade school system instead of resting on the tax bases of tiny local school districts

But then how would we get our license plates made? Won't somebody please think of the DMV!
posted by Talez at 8:09 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I would be worried about a Pence vs Hillary debate. My consolation is I kind of doubt he's able to channel the blood-soaked moxie that carried Trump through this primary, and he's more likely to meet the same fate in the 2020 Republican primary that folks like Bush/Rubio/Perry did in 2016.

I'm not so sure. Trump steamrolled through primary season because the rest of the field kept waiting for voters to come to their senses and listen to the same platitudes the party has been pitching for decades. Kasich and Cruz really really really believed that the fervor would eventually die down, and that the voting public was too proud to be taken for such populist fools. They bet wrong. Maybe no one can match his bluster and gamesmanship, but you can be absolutely sure that the rest of the Republican field won't be caught flat-footed by another huckster like Trump in 2020. They'll ratchet up the crazy to keep pace, and Pence will either adapt or be knocked out in the primaries.
posted by Mayor West at 8:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


If, post-election, the alt-right feels that the election was "stolen," I wonder if that can be transformed into increased support for more tamper-resistant voting methods?

I sure as fuck hope so. I hate hate hate our electronic polling machines in TX. Please, give me a paper ballot and a goddamn receipt.
posted by rp at 8:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Nate Silver, 538: Women Are Defeating Donald Trump
To put those numbers in perspective, that’s saying Trump would defeat Clinton among men by a margin similar to Dwight D. Eisenhower’s landslide victory over Adlai Stevenson in 1952, while Clinton would defeat Trump among women by a margin similar to … actually, there’s no good comparison, since no candidate has won a presidential election by more than 26 percentage points since the popular vote became a widespread means of voting in 1824.

... if the electoral franchise were really restricted only to men, our politics would look a lot different. And if it were restricted only to women, they’d look really, really different, perhaps with entirely different coalitions than the ones that prevail now.
The first bit quoted is about the PRRI poll that came out yesterday. Other polls are showing a large gender gap, but not that large. I think the difference PRRI's results and others may be large numbers of Republican women deciding not to vote. PRRI's method of filtering likely voters is sensitive to stuff like that; most pollsters' methods aren't.
posted by nangar at 8:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


1 more time ICYMI: I got this message from my little sister tonight. This is why T***p cannot win. #oneofmanyreasons #vote

Wow, that's just like the people among the Brexit voters who literally thought that a Brexit win meant that their racist fantasies were, like, literally law the minute the count was in. People really think they're installing a dictator - it's not even that they're just hateful misogynists, they think that Trump is going to come in and, what, send the military around to enforce his gross personal beliefs the second he's in office?
posted by Frowner at 8:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


Wow - the Go Vote ad was amazing. I noticed in the Mormons for Hillary ad (not sure of the exact title) and this one that much of the spoken word was captioned on the screen - which just feels so inclusive to me. Has that been the case with most of the Hillary ads?

As much as I'd love to say this is for reasons of inclusiveness - coming from the ad world, the sad truth is, that it's just the way you do advertising video for feed based media like Twitter or Facebook which most people use on their phones and don't necessarily have their sound on.
posted by starzero at 8:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump steamrolled through primary season because the rest of the field kept waiting for voters to come to their senses and listen to the same platitudes the party has been pitching for decades. Kasich and Cruz really really really believed that the fervor would eventually die down, and that the voting public was too proud to be taken for such populist fools. They bet wrong.

Most people casting votes in the primary voted for someone other than Trump. I have no idea if a really unified anti-Trump coalition would have ultimately won, but that's where the party establishment failed.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


This video was directed and produced by diamond Joe Biden in my head canon

And he checked out the final mix in both a Camaro and a Corvette.

Although honestly I don't like the karaoke soundstage in the ad. But I drive a Mazda with a surround sound system.
posted by spitbull at 8:17 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tarumba Corb, one thing that I truly believe is that the smart thing to do for Democrats is look for reasonable consensus and offer an olive branch to nevertrump Republicans. I am familiar with many conflicts around the world where, the perfect being the enemy of the good, chances for rebuilding were wasted.

I don't think I can scream "NO" loudly enough to adequately express how opposed I am to this mindset.

If we'll just surrender enough, the thinking goes, maybe then the Republicans will be nice to us!

We just had eight years of Obama surrendering everything he could to the Republicans and look what it got him. Did he get compromise? Did he get cooperation?

Obamacare **STARTED** as a Republican proposal, and he systemically stripped from it the most liberal parts in a misguided belief that if he could just surrender enough, if he could just give the Republicans enough, they'd be nice to him. And what did that get him?

Nothing. Not one single Republican vote. He literally tailored parts of that bill based on what Republican senators claimed would get their vote, and he got nothing.

As a reward for surrendering almost completely on every single issue of importance, the Republicans gave him more filibusters than were ever used in the entireity of all American history prior to his election. As a way of showing how much they value compromise and seeking the middle ground, after Obama capitulated totally and gave them more than they asked for (remember when Obama volunteered to slash Social Security even though the Republican's hadn't even asked for it?) they paid back his unconditional surrender of all liberal values by blocking his appointments and declaring that his last year in office magically doesn't count and refusing to even hold a hearing on the center right, moderate conservative, Supreme Court nominee he picked especially as a compromise candidate.

Trying to play nicey nicey with the Republicans does nothing but get them what they want and make us suckers.

We cannot continue to surrender in hopes that if we just give up enough then magically the Republicans will stop being the obstructionist, absolutists, that they are.

I think Clinton is smart enough to recognize what Obama never did: there can be no compromise with the Republicans because they won't compromise. They will never, ever, give up the tiniest thing to meet in the middle. We've given up virtually everything we've ever asked for and they've done nothing but grow fat and strong on what we've surrendered while in return they gave us absolutely nothing at all.

I know this won't be a popular opinion with many liberals, but this is a real chance we have at ending the long term divisiveness that has affected this country and actively fed all the vitriol we see today.

The divisiveness has come entirely, 100%, from one side: the Repubicans. You cannot with any degree of seriousness claim that the Democrats have been failing to offer a hand across the aisle, or make compromises. To speak in the passive voice about "divisiveness" as if it were the fault of both parties is not merely incorrect but incorrect in a way that actively harms us. It promotes the idea that the proper way to deal with Republican intransigence is via increased capitulation and the surrender of yet more of our values and goals. It promotes the idea that we, on the left, are responsible for the Republican intransigence.

If Trump can be of any use, it will be as the enemy that will unite us left and right. I hope we Democrats can remember that our motto is "stronger together" , and that requires a degree of compromise.

And the very instant the Republicans compromise I'll say we should look seriously at it. But compromise requires both sides to be willing to compromise. And Ryan, McConnell, et al have shown not the slightest willingness or desire to compromise. They created Trump by their steadfast refusal to compromise, by their constant and never ending demonization of liberals and Democrats, by the vicious take no prisoners approach they used in dealing with Obama and his continuous, submissive, attempts at compromise.

I don't, much as I'd like to, urge that Clinton be vindictive towards Republicans.

But enough is enough.

We've tried. For eight solid years we've tried. And it's gotten us nothing but Trump.

If they're willing to compromise, that's fine. But we give nothing more. We've already given far, far, too much. Let them give a bit for a change.

And if they won't?

Then I'd hope that Clinton will play hardball.
posted by sotonohito at 8:18 AM on October 12, 2016 [248 favorites]




Power has corrupted the evangelical establishment.

Corrupted power was built into it from the beginning.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:21 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


About an hour ago, I voted on the first day of Indiana's early voting. Y'all can probably guess who for.
posted by Gelatin at 8:21 AM on October 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


The divisiveness has come entirely, 100%, from one side: the Republicans. You cannot with any degree of seriousness claim that the Democrats have been failing to offer a hand across the aisle, or make compromises. To speak in the passive voice about "divisiveness" as if it were the fault of both parties is not merely incorrect but incorrect in a way that actively harms us. It promotes the idea that the proper way to deal with Republican intransigence is via increased capitulation and the surrender of yet more of our values and goals. It promotes the idea that we, on the left, are responsible for the Republican intransigence.

This. We cannot sacrifice what we believe in just to get more ridiculous demands from the right. President Obama did his best but I think part of the issue at the beginning of his first term he failed to recognize that at this point the Republicans are the party of no and cannot be appealed to or reasoned with.

I have no idea how we fix that. Perhaps their current internal collapse will help facilitate the rise of people who understand that stamping their feet like toddlers and refusing to share is not how you govern a nation of millions.
posted by winna at 8:23 AM on October 12, 2016 [36 favorites]


It seems more like voting for the name "Green" as if that alone was meaningful.

I'd be more sympathetic to the argument that a vote for Stein is a vote for public funding if there were any indication that that public funding wouldn't be spent solely on another Stein campaign in 2020, instead of on winnable local races.

The thing that sucks about that is at least a healthy percentage of Republicans have been planning to vote Clinton - not as many elected officials as I would like, but it's a real crossover that has been happening.

September is for winning converts; October is for mobilising the base. Ultimately, Clinton can't be putting as much time into winning over any possibly-maybes who haven't already jumped ship, not when there are downballot challengers who now need to run hard against their own opponents, and when Clinton needs at least the Senate in Dem hands to deliver on some of her pledges. If there are Republican voters who are undecided about splitting their ticket, then they'll have to make that decision for themselves.

All in all, it seems like Team HRC is treading fairly lightly compared to the kind of October campaign they could be running: the Miami speech was mostly about climate change and "every vote counts".
posted by holgate at 8:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


> We desperately need opposition.

Yup. I think a lot of progressives have a fantasy of getting True Power in which they are finally able to do All the Good Things and everybody will live happily ever after. (I'm not saying anyone actually thinks this consciously, because it's obviously silly if you think about it, but there's a lot of impatience with any kind of opposition—"oh, so they're against Trump, but they're still for Stuff I Don't Like, so fuck 'em"—which translates into the same thing.) But that's not how politics works; any entrenched group with no meaningful opposition will degenerate into autocracy and corruption. So root for a reformed GOP that focuses on fiscal conservatism and opposition to more than a bare minimum of involvement with foreign countries (which was what it was like when I was growing up), even if you don't like those ideas, because it's important that people who share those ideas have a responsible party to advocate for them. If you crush the reasonable opposition, you're left with the wild-eyed fanatics.
posted by languagehat at 8:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [40 favorites]


Regardless of what you think about the principles of compromise, if Trump causes the Republicans to lose seats they are going to be moderate seats in swing states. The remaining congressmen will not be the sort of people you reason with.
posted by selfnoise at 8:25 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


It's sort of hard for me to get that enthused, though, about someone who was apparently just fine with Steve King but thinks that Trump is just a bridge too far.

This for me about the whole turnaround in general. Great that you all are on board, but it's not like this guy and a good chunk of his party weren't on display saying horrible things about women and POCs and non-Christians the whole time. It's really weird to me that "let's shoot Muslims with pig's blood bullets and torture their wives and kids" (paraphrasing) is hunky-dory but "I moved on her like a bitch" isn't. I don't get it, even factoring in my in-the-bones belief that we are nowhere near the rational and principled species we tell ourselves we are.

So, I'll take the mass exit from his support base, but I'm not exactly going to congratulate them on their morality, empathy, or clear thinking here. I'm mostly going to be thinking about Nate Silver's gender-specific maps, trying and failing not to think about the percentage of Americans who would gladly bring back segregation and maybe even slavery, and worry my ass off about potential violence now and the long-term future of US policy.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


Remember Judge Merrick Garland? Because the Republicans in Congress sure don't.

How in the god damn hell are we supposed to even ATTEMPT to "compromise" with these fucking people? They won't even bother to vote AGAINST the guy! They REFUSE TO DO THEIR JOBS and WE'RE supposed to "reach across the aisle" to THEM?

I'm sick and tired of this bullshit nonsense false equivalence garbage. Republicans are the problem. Full fucking stop.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [168 favorites]


Most people casting votes in the primary voted for someone other than Trump. I have no idea if a really unified anti-Trump coalition would have ultimately won, but that's where the party establishment failed.

It's not the establishment though. Every one of Trump's opponents had an insurmountable problem. Jeb? He had a ground game. He had a fundraising machine generating money out the wazoo. He also had all the charisma of a fence post. Marco? Charisma, Republican "moderate", Latino. Ground game? What's a ground game? We'll win Florida and people will wake up! Ted Cruz? Evangelical but nobody actually likes him. Every single person in Congress actively dislikes him. Can't build coalitions with vanquished foes but still needs them to defeat Trump. Kasich? Same problem as Marco. Likeable enough. Not nearly as crazy as the rest of the field. Ground game? Well he'll wait for the Ohio primary and the establishment will coalesce behind him and he'll skate on forward.

The establishment didn't have a chance. They backed the wrong horse (Jeb!) and then none of the remaining candidates wanted to be the sacrificial lamb for another horse.
posted by Talez at 8:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


I know Corb is our only avowed Republican on this thread, but I feel like it's worth asking what a healthy/positive Republican party would even look like? If you drop sexism, racism, homophobia, what do you have left that they stand for? Just a general hatred of taxes uncoupled from any understanding of their necessity for a functioning society?

I think their first step is to excise the word "hatred" from their vocabulary. Oppose something? Fine. Vigorously oppose something. Fine. But once they get into this blood fever that tends to manifest when they talk about anything, you get, well, we found out what you get. You get a Donald Trump rally.

Be adults again, Republicans. It's not as fun, but it's sober and responsible, which is what your always trying to pass yourselves off as anyway.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 8:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


We need the left to ensure service provision, and we need the right to ensure fiscal responsibility. If we can rescue the sane part from the right we can easily outnumber the alt-right and move the country forward.

This flies in the face of all facts we have about how the two parties have actually governed. The days of pretending Chicago-school economic theories are at all serious are completely over. The GOP has been fully demonstrated to have used the plank of so-called "fiscal responsibility" as a trick to get low-information voters on their side. It was always a con, and you're suggesting we should keep pretending it isn't. Absolutely not.

Welcome people into the Dem party, sure, but I'm done negotiating with people who continue to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that the GOP is anything but the party serving unrestrained white supremacy and fascism.
posted by odinsdream at 8:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


Thinking about how Donnie's become unhinged, obsessing about his November 28th court date, I had a bath-thought last night:
After discussions with his lawyers regarding upcoming litigation schedules Mr. Trump announced that he is withdrawing from the campaign. At a press conference, Mr. Trump explained, "America needs a full-time President" [fake]*
* I reserve the option to upgrade to [real] if I'm in the alternate reality where this happens.
posted by mikelieman at 8:29 AM on October 12, 2016


The parents of a 7-year-old boy say he was beaten by five students on a school bus, allegedly while they made references to Muslims and the boy’s Pakistani heritage.

This makes me unbearably sad.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


I feel like it's worth asking what a healthy/positive Republican party would even look like?

Healthy for them or healthy for everyone? Because simply nixing the outright racism and cartoonish xenophobia would give the party another shot at the White House. "Healthy for everyone" is a different question and one that's probably presumptuous of me to try to answer but some kind of Chamber-of-Commerce-meets-Christian Democracy—free market economics tempered by the principles of solidarity and subsidiarity, less avowedly secular than parties to the left but still this side of Enlightenment denial—would seem to be a step in the right direction.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]




"Do you think, FOR ONE MINUTE, that Hillary and co. have no awareness of nuance?"

I agree, she's well known for working with both sides of the isle. The thing is, I was used to seeing Trumpers all gloaty and sort of fantasizing about how they would eat the heart of their enemies the day Trump wins the elections, and while we don't do that, there is an element of" told you so!" from our side that I think Hillary or Obama would not tolerate.

If the GOP is in crisis, and its hijacking by the crazies is finally complete, we can choose to hammer on our differences with sane Republicans or we can focus on alienating hateful people.

We complained when Bernie Bros didnt want to support Hillary to protect their ideological purity, but we would be doing exactly the same thing.

Look at the news. The alt right is gaining strength, children are attacked because of their ethnicity, people are harassed because of their gender. Hammering on the dichotomy between Democrats and Republicans is irresponsible in this climate. I'm sure Hillary knows this. Yesterday with Pence people were clamoring for revolution. Things can get a lot worse from here. We need to stand together.
posted by Tarumba at 8:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


There is only one way to guard against voter intimidation, hacking attempts, and ID supporession: check your voter registration NOW, and vote as soon as possible through early voting, absentee ballot, whatever your state allows.

This also allows the campaigns to focus on people who haven't voted yet, helping the ground game.

And be sure to encourage your parents and older friends to do this. They are at the greatest risk of suppression, and if you help them check their status now, you might have time to help them get a proper driver's license, ID card or birth certificate as necessary.
posted by msalt at 8:32 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


In re the fate of the Republicans....I'd like a reasonable opposition party, too. But what are the chances? The whole point of Trump, the reason for his existence, is that it turns out a substantial plurality of the Republican electorate is basically fine with big government, taxing the rich, and trade protectionism, they're also just bigots. If passionate fiscal conservatism were enought to win you the presidency, most Republicans would have disavowed Trump way before now. Remove their base and they cannot get elected. And what Trump proves is that the base really doesn't give a fuck about taxes.
posted by Diablevert at 8:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


The sooner we, as a society, come to terms with the simple fact that the GOP was a failed, evil endeavour, the better. This doesn't mean unrestrained Democratic party control of everything, all the time, but rather some new structure that has roots in a modern understanding of basic humanity, morality and ethics. The GOP is harmful, it is hateful, it is wrong. It is unwelcome. It deserves to be destroyed.
posted by odinsdream at 8:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


I have no idea how we fix that.

My parents live in a county in North Carolina that went for Mitt Romney by over forty points, where I live is almost certainly any Democratic presidential candidate's three most reliable electoral votes (Jimmy Carter's 75% in '76 of the vote is the lowest DC has ever given to a democratic candidate). When I go visit, it's like we occupy different worlds. Even when I I try to accept some of their basic premises, and explain, for instance, that we've already spent lots of money on securing the borders, that illegal immigration is down, that voter fraud is not a real problem, I can tell that these facts are, for them, coming from an outside reality. Even leaving aside who is responsible for the "divisiveness" (and I agree with you about where it comes from), I have no clue how we'd have a debate in this country that makes any kind of sense. We're starting from completely different premises.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


I'd like to remind everyone that some of us live in states, and that in many of those states there is basically nothing to restrain the GOP. Just because they won't win the White House doesn't mean they won't still run the Tennessee legislature for years to come.

And at the state level you don't necessarily get the most reasonable, reflective types.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


I agree, she's well known for working with both sides of the isle.

Yeah, Upper West Side progressives and moderate Upper East Side republican bankers!

I tease, of course!
posted by spitbull at 8:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


If the GOP is in crisis, and its hijacking by the crazies is finally complete, we can choose to hammer on our differences with sane Republicans or we can focus on alienating hateful people.

That's exactly what we're doing. People who believe voter suppression is OK and whose civil and human rights stance is indistinguishable from the people siccing dogs on African-Americans (i.e. "state's rights") are hateful people.

We complained when Bernie Bros didnt want to support Hillary to protect their ideological purity, but we would be doing exactly the same thing.

Asking people to meet the basic bars of civility is not even close to the same thing as ideological purity. To claim that is what people here are asking for is ridiculous.

Look at the news. The alt right is gaining strength, children are attacked because of their ethnicity, people are harassed because of their gender. Hammering on the dichotomy between Democrats and Republicans is irresponsible in this climate. I'm sure Hillary knows this.

She does, which is why she's specifically not asking for Democrats compromise on everything, and nor are her surrogates, including Bernie Sanders.

Yesterday with Pence people were clamoring for revolution. Things can get a lot worse from here. We need to stand together.

Not if they're going to continue to support and encourage the exact same things that got us here in the first place.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


This doesn't mean unrestrained Democratic party control of everything, all the time, but rather some new structure that has roots in a modern understanding of basic humanity, morality and ethics. The GOP is harmful, it is hateful, it is wrong. It is unwelcome. It deserves to be destroyed.

Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?


Parties don't arise out of the ether. Parties arise when enough people want a thing to happen that they're willing to work together to make it happen. The GOP will change, after this. Maybe it will even die and we'll get something new. But whatever the new form is, it will be a form that has at least a chance of getting 50% of the people to vote for it. Out-and-proud white nationalism gets you 35%-40%, is what this election reveals. Maybe you can find something else that those people care about. But they're not going away.
posted by Diablevert at 8:39 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


"Don't message me saying all those things I listed are wrong. I know they're wrong. Or rather, I think they're wrong, because I now live in a blue county and work for a blue industry. I know the Good Old Days of the past were built on slavery and segregation, I know that entire categories of humanity experienced religion only as a boot on their neck. I know that those "traditional families" involved millions of women trapped in kitchens and bad marriages. I know gays lived in fear and abortions were back-alley affairs.

I know the changes were for the best.

Try telling that to anybody who lives in Trump country."

How Half of America Lost its Fucking Mind
by David Wong

posted by Groundhog Week at 8:40 AM on October 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


CNN everybody:
AMANPOUR: Can I just try one last question? One last question. A bit cheeky butI'm going to ask you. Russia had its own Pussy Riot moment. What do you think of Donald Trump’s pussy riot moment?

RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER LAVROV: Well, I don't know what this would… English is not my mother tongue, I don't know if I would sound decent. There are so many pussies around the presidential campaign on both sides that I prefer not to comment on this.”
The look on Amanpour's face.

And this may be most disturbing campaign update yet:

"Trump outreach to millennials is real. The pre-rally soundtrack is "I Want It That Way" by the Backstreet Boys. It's working on @alivitali." --@SopanDeb

"Spotted dancing to "I Want It That Way" by the Backstreet Boys: everyone here, but especially @SopanDeb" --@jdelreal

"Fact check: pants on fire. As in because I lit the dance floor on fire with my moves." --@SopanDeb

I think the press corps has broken.
posted by zachlipton at 8:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [77 favorites]


Trump is below 15% on the 538 polls-only forecast (for the first time this election, I think?)

Can I unclench yet?
posted by murphy slaw at 8:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]




> I'm amused at the stealth canvasing conservative-friends-and-family-of-MeFites for McMuffin operation we have going on.

Glad to amuse, but it's deadly serious for me. What's at stake is whether I have to think of my parents as morally monstrous. McMullin wouldn't be good, but I've managed to make my peace with them voting for Republicans like him before. If they can vote for Donald Trump, they're not the people I thought they were. Which I can't say to them, because it would sound manipulative and hysterical -- and maybe it is, I'm not really in the right frame of mind to be able to tell right now -- but the future of our relationship very possibly hinges on being able to convince them to vote for anybody but Trump. And I'm not optimistic.

help me, Egg McMuffin, you're my only hope
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:43 AM on October 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


NBC’s ‘Law & Order: SVU’ Tackles Donald Trump-Like Character in Episode That Drew Internal Scrutiny

"NBC’s “Law & Order: SVU” has a long history of developing stories inspired by real-life headlines. This season, one of the show’s most provocative episodes is sure to be “Unstoppable,” which features a Donald Trump-esque character running for president who gets tangled up in a sordid case when several women come forward with damaging accusations.

Gary Cole stars as a character described by a source as a wealthy and boorish man who makes a run for the White House. Aspects of the story were said to be inspired by the civil lawsuit pending against Trump, the Republican nominee for president, by a woman who alleges she was raped by Trump when she was 13 in the mid-1990s. Trump’s attorneys have vehemently died the allegations by the woman identified in court documents as Jane Doe."
posted by chris24 at 8:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


Zombieflanders, I am a little confused because I think we essentially agree, what I am trying to say is that there are portions of the Republican party that can be rescued and that we can work with. I am not saying they are not oppressive or discriminatory, I am saying that once the alt right storms off it affects their numbers but the percentage of reasonable people will shoot up.
posted by Tarumba at 8:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]






The sooner we, as a society, come to terms with the simple fact that the GOP was a failed, evil endeavour, the better.

Lincoln was totes evil.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:47 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Zombie Lincoln was worse.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Eric Trump doesn't seem to know about the 19th Amendment

We talked about government a few weeks back at Girl Scouts (after which the girls wrote a wonderful letter to President Obama that included "p.s. Donald Trump is Donald Duck") and used the 19th Amendment as an example of what can happen because of the rights granted to us by the 1st Amendment.

The girls had NO IDEA women weren't allowed to vote. (This had just come off a discussion about how they think it's unfair that kids can't vote, so the idea that all women--their moms, their sisters, their teachers, them when they grew up--couldn't vote at all ever just 100 years before was shocking.) You don't know fury like righteous anger of a nine year old learning how unfair the world is. I wish I had had a camera pointed on them, because their reactions were just so pure and heartbreaking and assured.

Anyway, I'd love to see how Eric would fare in a room with them. The sap would get eaten alive.
posted by phunniemee at 8:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [117 favorites]


I guess if you're more sympathetic to Republicans you could assume Obama was either lying or misinterpreting things in this interview, but:

When I came into office, my working assumption was that because we were in crisis, and the crisis had begun on the Republicans’ watch, that there would be a window in which they would feel obliged to cooperate on a common effort to dig us out of this massive hole... what proved to be the case in that first year and that second year was a calculation based on what turned out to be pretty smart politics but really bad for the country: If they cooperated with me, then that would validate our efforts. If they were able to maintain uniform opposition to whatever I proposed, that would send a signal to the public of gridlock, dysfunction, and that would help them win seats in the midterms...

There are two other elements that I think contributed to the Republican approach: The first was that even where their leadership wanted to cooperate, the tenor of the Republican base had shifted in a way that made it very difficult for them to cooperate without paying a price internally... It might not have been representative of Republicans across the country, but it meant that John Boehner or Mitch McConnell had to worry about that mood inside their party that felt that, No, we shouldn’t cooperate with Obama, we shouldn’t cooperate with Democrats; that it represents compromise, weakness, and that the broader character of America is at stake, regardless of whatever policy arguments might be made. As a consequence, there were times that I would meet with Mitch McConnell and he would say to me very bluntly, “Look, I’m doing you a favor if I do any deal with you, so it should be entirely on my terms because it hurts me just being seen photographed with you.” During the health-care debate, you know, there was a point in time where, after having had multiple negotiations with [Iowa senator Chuck] Grassley, who was the ranking member alongside my current Chinese ambassador, [Max] Baucus, in exasperation I finally just said to Grassley, “Is there any form of health-care reform that you can support?” and he shrugged and looked a little sheepish and said, “Probably not.”...

I have very cordial relations with a lot of the Republican members. We can have really great conversations and arrive at a meeting of the minds on a range of policy issues, but if they think they’re going to lose seats or that they’re going to lose their own seat because the social media has declared that they sold out the Republican Party, then they won’t do it.


Compromise, huh? Olive branch? What the fuck ever.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2016 [122 favorites]


A disturbing anecdote in that story of Trump walking in on Miss Teen contestants changing:

"Billado said she told Ivanka about Donald Trump entering the room while the girls were changing their clothes. Billado remembers Ivanka answering, “Yeah, he does that.”

Umm, so he has a habit of walking in on Ivanka changing as well...
posted by chris24 at 8:52 AM on October 12, 2016 [42 favorites]


The sooner we, as a society, come to terms with the simple fact that the GOP was a failed, evil endeavour, the better.

Lincoln was totes evil.


Can we get off the Party of Lincoln thing? GOP is not the same party as Lincoln's party. Why do people insist on this?
posted by zutalors! at 8:53 AM on October 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


Arizona flipped blue on the 538 map through the special sauce correlations with national polling. Georgia is probably the only serious stretch goal worth Team Clinton's attention -- the value of another trip to Omaha for a single EV is limited; Missouri might be worth attention because of Jason Kander, depending upon whether his campaign wants to be seen closer to Hillary or at a slight distance.

Kellyanne Duckspeak can't even go to the LA Times tracking poll any more.
posted by holgate at 8:53 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Lincoln was totes evil.

It's absurd to suggest the GOP as it exists today has anything to do with Lincoln.
posted by odinsdream at 8:54 AM on October 12, 2016 [24 favorites]


"What do you think of Donald Trump’s pussy riot moment?"
😲
posted by octobersurprise at 8:54 AM on October 12, 2016




A federal judge just extended Florida voter registration for another week! Til the 18th.
posted by chris24 at 8:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


Lincoln was totes evil.

It’s absurd to suggest the GOP as it exists today has anything to do with Lincoln.

It’s absurd to label the GOP “a failed, evil endeavor” and then assume that people won’t think you’re including its first President in that indictment. It’s certainly worked fine for Republican candidates.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


As a compatriot of Melania's (we both come from the former Yugoslavia) I'd like to comment on the pussy bow situation.

I think it was genuinely unintentional for two reasons:

1. Melania has tried to keep as low a profile as possible throughout the campaign, but especially since the convention speech fiasco.

2. Her English is pretty basic and I doubt very much she knows the term "pussy-bow". It is possible a stylist snuck it in all innocent-like, if she is working with a stylist, although she also seems to view herself as very confident about dressing herself. This is just my impression however.

Just generally, though, Melania's Stepford wife persona feels very off to me. Slovenia has a reputation for being a very progressive nation, kind of like Iceland. I have a hard time believing Melania is really the submissive wife she appears to be.
posted by Dragonness at 8:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


Look at the news. The alt right is gaining strength, children are attacked because of their ethnicity, people are harassed because of their gender. Hammering on the dichotomy between Democrats and Republicans is irresponsible in this climate. I'm sure Hillary knows this. Yesterday with Pence people were clamoring for revolution. Things can get a lot worse from here. We need to stand together.

Every one of the outrages you describe is the result of Republican spewed hate. Yet, we're supposed to come to the aid of the reasonable republicans whose long-standing policies caused this shit. Fuck that. How about this for a deal. We will work with the republicans, but, in return, they must :

1. Pass a bipartisan Single Payer Health Plan for all Americans
2. Agree to repeal the Hyde Amendment
3. Increase the tax rate for the wealthiest top 5% of Americans by 50%
4. Pass a $00.01 per share per trade tax on all electronically traded stock transactions
5. Pass a comprehensive immigration bill that gives all immigrants, legal and illegal, a path towards citizenship

Pick 3.
Then we'll talk about "standing together." Otherwise, this is just more right-wing concern trolling.
posted by Chrischris at 8:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [52 favorites]


Possibly the only Downfall video I'm ever going to make in my life, but someone had to do it:

Donald Trump discovers he might lose to [Metafilter's adopted own] Evan McMullin in Utah
posted by garius at 8:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [81 favorites]


In Utah McMullin is the LDS candidate for president. He is potentially, Orrin Hatch's replacement for the senate a couple of years down the line. Everybody else got old, and they know it. McMullin is being groomed for relevance. Utahans are going to be told who to vote for, that is not Hillary in this election, after not Trump. That is how it is going down. I still think there are enough voters in western states, to dent this election. Who will Ryan choose if it comes down to it? Believe me the powers that be have been working on this for a good, long while.

There are a lot of Democrats in Utah, they have just given up. They came out of the woodwork at the caucases, and to register, so maybe Hillary will win in Utah.
posted by Oyéah at 8:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Absentee Voting Off to Bumpy Start in New York City

Whatever came of the investigation of the voting rolls purge in the NY state primary?
posted by msalt at 8:59 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


It’s absurd to label the GOP “a failed, evil endeavor” and then assume that people won’t think you’re including its first President in that indictment. It’s certainly worked fine for Republican candidates.

What are you getting at here?
posted by zutalors! at 8:59 AM on October 12, 2016


One thing that has really angered me about the coverage of the 2005 tape is what words get bleeped. I'm not advocating that all words should be censored or not, but I am bothered by the following disparity.

"Fuck" get bleeped, even though sex is a common human activity. "Pussy" gets bleeped, too, for some reason. Apparently words describing the genitals of many women is too much for sensitive ears.

"Bitch", however, almost never seemed to get bleeped, even though it's a specifically gendered, dehumanizing insult so often directed at women who will stand up to men.

What's up with that? I've been stewing about this for days.

Note: HFA's ad featuring these words does bleep "bitch".
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


We don't have to save the republican party for there to be continued opposition in this country. I'd like to see something like either the Working Families party coalesce on the left and/or a rethought (less scorched earth) Libertarian party on the right. The apparatus of the GOP will take decades to crumble. But, unless there is a kind of internal clearing of house of Tea Party nuts (or a splinter right break into a Reform party lead by Trumpites), the GOP brand is doomed.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


The GOP survived Nixon. They can certainly survive Trump.
posted by math at 9:02 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


FYI, I put in ten bucks at Raul Barrera's campaign to send that rapist apologist Farenthold packing.
posted by Talez at 9:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's absurd to suggest the GOP as it exists today has anything to do with Lincoln.

No less absurd than it is to suggest that the GOP is "a failed, evil endeavour" that must be destroyed.

Political parties are comprised of people, who periodically make collective decisions about the goals of that party. At one time, the GOP valued things that today we would consider "progressive" - at another, their values lay elsewhere. But in all cases, it was the will of the individual people amongst the party itself that steered the course.

I agree with the notion that the current course of the GOP seems to be leading towards doom for the party, but the way to fix that is not to write off every blessed thing it's ever done, but rather to encourage members to mutiny and get some damn control back from the nutbars running the ship now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


To paraphrase noted philosopher Rick Pitino:
"Abraham Lincoln is not walking through that door, fans. Teddy Roosevelt is not walking through that door, and Dwight Eisenhower is not walking through that door."
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump discovers he might lose to [Metafilter's adopted own] Evan McMullin in Utah

Holy shit, that's the funniest thing I've seen all week!
"Don't worry. Kelly took away his Android."
I laughed so hard the dogs ran into the room to see what was wrong.
posted by zakur at 9:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


@DLin71 Daniel Lin:
2015 GOP: Stop perverts from walking in on girls

2016 GOP: One of those perverts should be President
posted by chris24 at 9:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [133 favorites]


>It’s absurd to label the GOP “a failed, evil endeavor” and then assume that people won’t think you’re including its first President in that indictment. It’s certainly worked fine for Republican candidates.

I don't believe that any good-faith interpretation of language and history can draw a continuous ideological line between Abraham Lincoln and the modern Republican Party. Despite the chaff about Lincoln thrown up by the right, Lincoln has about as much to do with the comtemporary Republican Party as Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, and Aaron Burr have to do with the contemporary Democratic Party.

Would it be possible to focus on contemporary right wing thought rather than the brand name it operates under? And would it be possible to entertain the idea that some systems of reasoning are simply bad, as in tending to yield near-universal misery as a result?

Regardless of whether or not modern conservatism, the entity operating under the brand name "Republican Party" in America, is one of those bad systems, we must at least start from the position that it's possible for a widely held belief system to be no good — a source of problems rather than of solutions for problems.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


It's a shame that there's no way we'll ever know for sure, so I can't put a modest amount of money on the prop bet "Eric Trump has hunted humans for sport."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Trump has a new ad out saying Clinton only cares about "power, money and herself."

Corruption

The projection is strong with this one. #TrumpsMirror
posted by chris24 at 9:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


The thing is, if you take out the racism, bigotry and misogyny, there will never be a plurality for the GOP policies. It's the same in most Western democracies: people want their health care and their social security, and they want billionaires to pay taxes. In the US, a majority wants stricter gun control, and we can see in that other thread, a majority of Brits want a soft Brexit. But 20-30% of any electorate will go with identity politics over their own interest and they can be manipulated with lies and drama.
Not only in the US, but across the globe, we are seeing now how dangerous that route is.
posted by mumimor at 9:13 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


It's a shame that there's no way we'll ever know for sure, so I can't put a modest amount of money on the prop bet "Eric Trump has hunted humans for sport."

Here I was thinking that picture of Trump Jr. holding up an elephant's tail sure has a lot of symbolism now.
posted by Talez at 9:13 AM on October 12, 2016 [30 favorites]


Yeah, but they aren"t "G" any more. We get it, we want it to be over for colonialism, skin tone privilege, money privilege, and the idea that might makes right, and the Golden Rule, "HE who has the gold, makes the rules." We don't want our planet destroyed, in the name of getting it together to get to another one. They need to regroup.

My Bubbarother is all worried about the fact he has absolutely no power, and that thought that he should have power because he three illusions that comfort him, the right genitalia, the right color, the right religion; is only shaky because he can't get enough money.

I have tried telling him that is a part of the bigger plan, that he is a wage and debt slave, but he feels good, because of the three comforting illusions. Instead he is sure he will war to prevent one world government, or some such straw problem that he more complimented by, than reality.
posted by Oyéah at 9:15 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I agree with the notion that the current course of the GOP seems to be leading towards doom for the party, but the way to fix that is not to write off every blessed thing it's ever done, but rather to encourage members to mutiny and get some damn control back from the nutbars running the ship now.

We disagree. I do not stand to benefit from the corbs of the GOP "regaining" control of their party, unless it includes so much of a platform change as to make it an entirely new party. The very definition of the GOP is based on hatred and misinformation, which, in my personal case, is a direct threat to me and my family. I will not negotiate my humanity with such people. Their allegiance to the GOP as a brand is indefensible.
posted by odinsdream at 9:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [35 favorites]


Possibly the only Downfall video I'm ever going to make in my life, but someone had to do it:

LOLeriffic! You are the Michelangelo of Downfall videos, sir!
posted by octobersurprise at 9:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Can we get off the Party of Lincoln thing?

we're all john wilkes booth now.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:17 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


@TonyFratto
"The real test for GOP isn't repudiating Trump. Thats easy. It's having courage to repudiate Trump voters & appeal to a better constituency."

And this is why I think the Republican Party is doomed as a national party. Because there's no one with the courage and morals to do this and spend the time in the wilderness it would take to remake their constituency. Until they lose Texas for good they're going to keep trying to max out the white vote and minimize minority vote. And even once they lose Texas they may be content to control regionally and be a permanent minority party.
posted by chris24 at 9:19 AM on October 12, 2016 [17 favorites]


I have very cordial relations with a lot of the Republican members. We can have really great conversations and arrive at a meeting of the minds on a range of policy issues, but if they think they’re going to lose seats or that they’re going to lose their own seat because the social media has declared that they sold out the Republican Party, then they won’t do it.

This was Obama's single biggest failing as President. He happily assumed the role of Charlie Brown, time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, again. He opened every negotiation with Republicans assuming they were acting in good faith. They never were, not even once. His opening offer, every time, was a compromise position that represented the minimum position that Democrats could accept, and he lost ground from there, every, single, time.

Let's hope Clinton was watching all of those times.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:19 AM on October 12, 2016 [62 favorites]


I feel like it's worth asking what a healthy/positive Republican party would even look like?

I think, at its most basic, deepest disagreement, from my perspective and I believe from theirs (and if I'm reading the Dems wrong, I apologize), the Republicans are the party that values the good things of the past more than the potential good things of the future, while the Democrats are the party that values the good things of the future more than the potential good things of the past.

Like others, I believe that both parties are deeply necessary - I think the Republicans need the Democrats to drag us kicking and screaming into the future, and I think the Democrats need the Republicans to say, "Hey, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

I think that the absolute highest priority for a healthy Republican party would have to start with a good understanding of things that are so deeply entrenched that the fight has been lost, and the ability to pick their battles.

For example, in one of the biggest ones, the fight has been lost for the pro-lifers on abortion. Even Republicans who genuinely, with their whole hearts, believe that abortion is murder and Roe v Wade was wrongly decided (This is, btw, not me), need to accept that there is no putting the genie back in the bottle. People for whom it's their most important priority need to start thinking of "How can we minimize abortions, without being asshats?" (*cough* funding birth control *cough*)

The Republican Party needs to hear criticisms from the other side, not automatically dismiss them, and offer solutions that fix problems.

So, for example, someone above mentioned Voter ID law, which is a useful example. The Democrats, correctly, point out that minorities tend to be disproportionately poor, and thus have less free time and transportation, which means they are less likely to have an ID and be able to vote, so it ends up as de facto disenfranchisement. The correct answer to this is not "I don't give a fuck", but "Okay, so how can we get everyone an ID? This is important to us, so how can we fund the process of getting an ID better? What are we willing to cut/tax to get this?"

(NB: I am aware that for some people, the disenfranchisement by race is a feature, not a bug. Those people will ideally be too busy burning in hell to have a part in this new party.)
posted by corb at 9:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [121 favorites]


It's a shame that there's no way we'll ever know for sure, so I can't put a modest amount of money on the prop bet "Eric Trump has hunted humans for sport."

please. their vital humors are necessary to his diet. what Eric does is subsistence hunting
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:21 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


At the point when it can't stop an openly fascist candidate, either from lack of will or statesmanship on the part of leaders or because it can't keep from inculcating and reinforcing attitudes that increase the tractability of its members but make them easy prey for fascist demagoguery, the Republican Party is a rotten and nonfunctional part of our political immune system.

It's seriously dangerous to have it as the lens for half the political force in the country. I do not at all get these comments that seem to be saying a couple of touch ups will make it good as new, as though it's a house being flipped or something.
posted by XMLicious at 9:22 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


And on anthropogenic climate change, and specifically the utterly discredited arguments about how just letting the free market deal with it will cost less in both economic and human costs, it's time for those Republicans to come around.

I'd he happy if Republicans simply abandoned their utter denial that a problem even exists and actually got behind a market-based solution, mainly cap and trade.

Return with us now to the thrilling days of yesteryear, when pollution was causing dangerous smog and acid rain. The conservative solution at the time was cap and trade -- a baseline level of pollution was established, and those who reduced their emissions by a lot could sell their right to pollute to others who did not do so well.

At the time, I thought it was a lot of Republican free-market hooey, but you know what? . It worked so well, in fact, that Democrats -- who tend to focus on desirable outcomes rather than ideological correctness -- adopted this policy to carbon dioxide. That the Republicans, once again, abandoned their own program in order to oppose Democrats is just further evidence that even the "reasonable" ones are not acting in good faith.
posted by Gelatin at 9:23 AM on October 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


If you're tired of the soft music and rolling hills in Clinton's previous ads, her new one is METAL! As in 80s hair metal. And it's devastating .

Oh my heck. So there's the replacement line "Final Meltdown", which they play with the caption and once during the O'Reilly interview. The replacement voice also sings in the background (in the style of the original phrases "leaving ground"/"to be found") the phrase "filthy mouth" when talking about McCain and salty language. But they leave the original phrase "Final Countdown" in once... immediately before the commentator calls Trump a "nuclear bomb". Score one for doing the little details right, digital team.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 9:23 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


I may have missed it but what is everyone's take on this Saudi and Qatar email thing from the Podesta files?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 9:25 AM on October 12, 2016


I’m one of the Central Park Five. Donald Trump won’t leave me alone.: In some ways, I feel like I’m on trial all over again. Like Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown, young men who were killed and then crucified in the media, I know what it is to be a young black man without a voice. Even though we were found innocent by a court of law, we are still guilty in the court of public opinion. That brings a certain kind of stress.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [54 favorites]


I may have missed it but what is everyone's take on this Saudi and Qatar email thing from the Podesta files?


I tuned out to the wikileaks/email thing after Podesta's risotto tips. If there were anything but more #nothingburgers, we'd already have heard it.
posted by mikelieman at 9:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


I can't tell if it's just my skewed perspective or if corb is actually for reals describing the Democratic Party in her description of a sane Republican Party.

I mean all of those things above are just Tim Kaine af, y'know?

How about we have an old-school Democratic-Republican party opposed on the right by a small white supremacist party (call them the Trump Rump) and on the left by some kinda NDP-style alliance of social democrats and democratic socialists? That sounds a hell of a lot more healthy than having two conservative parties, one of which tries to be social democratic sometimes and the other of which has a severe problem with fascist entryists.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


I tuned out to the wikileaks/email thing after Podesta's risotto tips. If there were anything but more #nothingburgers, we'd already have heard it.

The one I've been dealing with is Hillary Clinton doesn't like 'Everyday Americans'. Indeed. She's right. As a phrase it sucks - and the email discussion was what phrase the campaign should use.
posted by Francis at 9:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Because there's no one with the courage and morals to do this and spend the time in the wilderness it would take to remake their constituency.

I'm not sure they have the technical capacity to "go into the wilderness", because the primary system. Repudiate Trumpism and you may lose a challenge to a Deplorable Basketeer, and that creates a vicious cycle in terms of fundraising and local party support. It's a kind of entryism that anyone familiar with the UK Labour Party will recognise.
posted by holgate at 9:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


She believes, like intelligence orgs and officials like Biden have said, that Saudi Arabis and Qatar have been helping Daesh.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


It’s absurd to label the GOP “a failed, evil endeavor” and then assume that people won’t think you’re including its first President in that indictment. It’s certainly worked fine for Republican candidates.

What are you getting at here?

I believe that You Can’t Tip A Buick captured my opinion, but I would add that labeling the GOP as evil opens up the window for people to deploy Lincoln to obscure matters. The Democrats and the Republicans have been and stood for many things, often at the same time (depending on where you live).
posted by Going To Maine at 9:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Holy shit, that's the funniest thing I've seen all week!
"Don't worry. Kelly took away his Android."
I laughed so hard the dogs ran into the room to see what was wrong.


Yes. I was laughing so hard Dad came to see if I was okay because he thought I was crying.
And this is how I learned when I laugh really hard it sounds like I'm crying.
posted by Jalliah at 9:32 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


localhuman: Yeah my cats can name a historical foreign leader they respect, Meow Zedong

This is as good a chance as I'll get to flog this t-shirt on the blue: Chairman Meow
posted by strange chain at 9:32 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


This was Obama's single biggest failing as President. He happily assumed the role of Charlie Brown, time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, again. He opened every negotiation with Republicans assuming they were acting in good faith.

The problem with advocating that he should have done something else, in my view, is that if you turn the Democrats into the mirror image of the Republican party in their negotiating behavior, you'd probably end up with the Dems less able to take advantage of appearing "high minded" during times like the present. And you're relying on significant electoral sweeps in the presidency and Congress in order to get anything done, when those kinds of outcomes are increasingly rare (2016 seems like an outlier).
posted by AndrewInDC at 9:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regarding voting for the Greens, I just don't get it. Not only for the reasons mentioned above, but because I find it impossible to see Stein as a good choice for pretty much anything at this point and the Greens don't do much of anything in our political system except throw up candidates like her every four years then disappear. It seems more like voting for the name "Green" as if that alone was meaningful. I'd personally need to hear any sort of realistic defense of Stein and her foolishness this cycle to be able to even vaguely understand voting for the Greens right now, and even that would leave all the other points raised unanswered as to any real value in the decision.

They can't do much of anything because the Green Party is essentially treading water--they have to spend most of their effort just to stay on the ballots. The more votes they have, the more influence they will have. It has to start somewhere.

What foolishness are you referring to? I follow Stein on Twitter and she hasn't made a single tweet about vaccines, or WiFi, or anything that she's been smeared with, except maybe to link to Snopes articles debunking said smears. Mostly she criticizes Clinton and Trump, and expresses support for BLM and #NoDAPL and other environmental causes. I personally don't agree with her on everything, but I think it means a lot that she's willing to put herself at risk of getting arrested. I don't think any of the other candidates have said a word about the Dakota Pipeline--she actually went to North Dakota.

I'd be more sympathetic to the argument that a vote for Stein is a vote for public funding if there were any indication that that public funding wouldn't be spent solely on another Stein campaign in 2020, instead of on winnable local races.

Ok, but the Green Party has plenty of downballot candidates. Why's it reasonable to assume they're not spending any money on those campaigns?
posted by I'm Only Happy When It Rains On Your Wedding Day at 9:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Decided yesterday I want to go to the inauguration. Put my name on the list with my congresspeople for tickets and booked a hotel. Weeeeeeeeeeeee!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:35 AM on October 12, 2016 [51 favorites]


they think that Trump is going to come in and, what, send the military around to enforce his gross personal beliefs the second he's in office?
posted by Frowner at 11:11 AM on October 12 [5 favorites +] [!]


Why wouldn't they? That's certainly what I think.

*shivers in sudden, spiritual chill*
posted by invincible summer at 9:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


The very definition of the GOP is based on hatred and misinformation, which, in my personal case, is a direct threat to me and my family. I will not negotiate my humanity with such people. Their allegiance to the GOP as a brand is indefensible.

But the same could be said of the Dixiecrats in the 30s and 40s. FDR did what he could to pull the Dems to a progressive left, and he did a lot of good. But the compromises he had to make, specifically with Social Security and a lot of the WPA-type programs flew in the face of that Progressive push. Racism and hatred of non-whites was alive and well in Democratic Party. The Civil Rights Amendment, which faced a ton of Dem opposition, eventually pushed the party towards a more inclusive base and Johnson did a lot to make that happen. You could say that the only reason the Dems moved away from racist-ass policies is the push by a Dem President to make the CRA happen. After the stormclouds cleared, the only Dems that were left were ones who were less racist. Case in point, Strom Thurmond was a Democrat initially and left the party over the Civil Rights Act.

To paint a political party with such a broad brush and to say that they can't be redeemed is harsh and unrealistic. I'm sure if you stood on the floor of the Senate in 1876 and said that the first black president of this country would run as a Democrat and win, you'd be met with incredulous laughter at best and possible canings at worst.

It would take a very strong and committed set of leaders to identify the necessary steps to change and to put them in place. Many historians see Johnson's support of the CRA as one of the many reasons he didn't even win his party's nomination. I don't know if that kind of leadership is in existence for the Republicans, but if they can rebuild after this nightmare, there is a path.

For what it's worth, I'm what they call a yellow-dog Democrat, so unless the party does a major backflip and loses its mind, I'll be backing whatever D they throw at me.
posted by teleri025 at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


I would add that labeling the GOP as evil opens up the window for people to deploy Lincoln to obscure matters. The Democrats and the Republicans have been and stood for many things, often at the same time (depending on where you live).

And the Dodgers used to be from Brooklyn, but it was long ago and all the players, coaches, and owners have changed. Everything has changed but the name on the jersey.
In other words, The Republican Party is *not* the Party of Lincoln.
posted by rocket88 at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


The thing I think is funny is that honestly I'm a conservative person in the sense that I am not keen on change for change's sake and I think it's probably best not to tear everything down without looking at why it was done that way so we can retain as much as possible. I think that fiscal responsibility is a fine idea and that an efficient government should work closely with the public to ensure that it is an accountable government.

But I also believe that all people are created equal, that equality of theoretical opportunity is not true equality, that taxes should be levied in proportion to the amount of service the government provides the taxed entity (which is really what progressive taxation does, quite frankly), that religion has no business dictating public policy, and that we spend a stupid amount of money on state violence and not enough on the people who live here.

A party which advocated for true fiscal responsibility and acted as a brake against too rapid political change is one that I wouldn't necessarily dismiss out of hand. But for my entire lifetime that party has not been the Republican party - it is the Democratic one.
posted by winna at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


Calling it here: There will be no reformed Republican Party. It will fester as a rump until it is killed off by the Democrats splitting into factions.
posted by whuppy at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


If there's anyone here convinced that either McMullin or Stein are going to be president this time around, they are both currently at 2,000/1 at one bookmakers (i.e. bet £5 and win £10,000 - if your bet wins). Good luck!
posted by Wordshore at 9:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I’m one of the Central Park Five. Donald Trump won’t leave me alone

The other day, I heard an interview with one of their lawyers, telling about what they have been through in jail. It was horrifying. No one can give them their lives back. I hope they have loving families all around them.
posted by mumimor at 9:39 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


My dream Republican party would be one that was capable of looking at objective information, identifying the ways in which that information points to a problem, and then proposing courses of action that would solve (or reduce the impact of) the problem.

These seem like obvious and basic things for a political party to do. And yet, here we are.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:39 AM on October 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


Last night at trivia our team name was "When Trump wants that rump he takes you to the Dump" and I was shocked at the number of people who hadn't actually listened to Trump's access hollywood tape and had no knowledge of the Nancy O'Dell part.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:40 AM on October 12, 2016


To paint a political party with such a broad brush and to say that they can't be redeemed is harsh and unrealistic. I'm sure if you stood on the floor of the Senate in 1876 and said that the first black president of this country would run as a Democrat and win, you'd be met with incredulous laughter at best and possible canings at worst.

I don't know how much clearer I can be that I'm discussing the GOP as it exists today, as the party that has nominated Trump, in the context of the current discussion about "where do we go from here, what do Republicans do now and how should we, as Democrats, give in more to them so that they will somethingsomethingsomething".
posted by odinsdream at 9:40 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Republicans are the party that values the good things of the past more than the potential good things of the future, while the Democrats are the party that values the good things of the future more than the potential good things of the past.

Except they're really choosy about which parts of the past they want. "The past" includes the times when unions were the backbone of middle class upward mobility, with support across the ideological spectrum. It also includes the era when gun control at state and municipal levels was uncontroversial. It also includes the vast majority of the 20th century during which Keynesian economics, including stimulus spending / tax cuts during business cycle valleys and tax increases / spending cuts during business cycle peaks was understood to be in the nation's best interest.

But no, for quite some time, Republicans have absolutely not been the party of sticking to tradition. They've been the radicals. Maybe your description is targeted toward what you think the party ought to be, but it does not line up with how actual Republicans have governed over the last 40-plus years.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [72 favorites]


the Republicans are the party that values the good things of the past more than the potential good things of the future, while the Democrats are the party that values the good things of the future more than the potential good things of the past.

This feels entirely accurate to me. Particularly given the basic definitions of "liberal" and "conservative" that I was given in high school, which is that "liberal" basically means "driving toward change" while "conservative" means "minimizing change." Neither of those are inherently good or bad; everything depends on context.

That said, in the context of American politics, "minimizing change" usually equates to the ugly standards of inequality we've had all along in American history. A lot of Republicans recognize that in principle, but they don't like what the changes mean in practice...which to me sounds like a cheap dodge to avert a perceived loss of privilege, but I grant many don't see it that way.

The other fundamental split I tend to remember came from a poli sci professor. Both Republicans and Democrats value liberty, order, and equality. All three of these are important things. The difference is in prioritization: Democrats prioritize liberty and equality first, while Republicans prioritize liberty and order.

Again, it all gets down into the details and the alliances either party makes. Those core mindsets themselves aren't ugly; it's the individual details and policies that make it ugly. But that's when we get to the point where I have no sympathy for all the Republicans going down in flames right now, 'cause their details and policies sure don't line up with my idea of liberty or equality or even order. I want change, because things have been shitty for too many Americans (basically all the ones who don't look like me) for far, far too long.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Should probably add that by "problem," I mean things that are problems for Americans in general, not just the ones who fund election campaigns.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:41 AM on October 12, 2016


the Republicans are the party that values the good things of the past more than the potential good things of the future, while the Democrats are the party that values the good things of the future more than the potential good things of the past.

A bit of a devil you know situation for the conservative. That devil was really good to a narrow sliver of people. Not just based on race, but gender, economic class, religion, etc a lot of the good stuff wasn't available to everyone. I believe that there are conservatives who want the good things applied to everyone. But it's hard to separate out the conservatives who want the good things from the past applied to everyone from the narrow sliver who who just want to maintain their unfair advantage.

Unfortunately, the current incarnation of the GOP is run by the latter. And they're so committed to their cause that they can't compromise. This reduces the benefit of having a conservative party. I.e. instead of simply holding progressives in check, conservatives are actively pulling us backward. To a devil we know really really sucks.

A lot of people I know and respect are on the conservative side. They haven't really felt like the Republicans represented them in a while, and they are actively repulsed this time around.
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:43 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


The GOP survived Nixon. They can certainly survive Trump.

Suppose someone servived smallpox, and, years later, got cancer. Do you think the parallel argument "He survived smallpox, so he can survive cancer" would hold water?
posted by thelonius at 9:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [38 favorites]


For anybody who might have skimmed past it, the Hillarys for President link article is one of the best pieces of political writing I've read this election cycle. I don't agree with everything in it, but it's definitely smart, nuanced, and brings up stuff I didn't know before. I think it's also really clear-eyed about both Hillary Clinton and American politics.

Here's the intro:
One of the political parables about Hillary Clinton that’s kicking around the internet features Senator Elizabeth Warren talking about a bankruptcy bill. It all goes back to Hillary’s First Ladyhood. The way Warren tells it, she sat down with Clinton to explain how the bill would penalize, if not trap, single mothers dependent on child support. The point of the story is that Hillary absorbed the details in a matter of minutes, saw the big picture, and immediately understood the flaws. “I never had a smarter student,” Warren recalled. “Quick, right to the heart of it.” Hillary went back to the White House and, a little pillow talk later, Bill Clinton vetoed the bill.

The real takeaway of the story is to introduce you to a Hillary we all know—the smarty-pantsuit valedictorian and policy wonk who does the tedious homework, masters the footnotes, and gets an A+ for effort on the day’s big legislative assignment. This is the Hillary who wins honest praise from her worst enemies, men like Newt Gingrich or Lindsey Graham, because finessing an accommodating solution from the donkeywork of writing legislation is something Washington insiders admire—even if, in the bear pit of Fox News, trying to solve a problem through compromise is held out to be the problem.

Then, in the video where she tells this story, Warren adds a twist.
And there's a twist after that, and one following that, too. Thanks for posting the article, kirkaracha!
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:45 AM on October 12, 2016 [46 favorites]


I don't know how much clearer I can be that I'm discussing the GOP as it exists today, as the party that has nominated Trump

Odinsdream, I get that you're talking about the party of today. I was just pointing out that if we let history show us some things, we see that parties can be redeemed. The Democrats started the fucking Civil War. So they could own black people! They were traitors and totally unredeemable. And yet, the party evolved over centuries and became the home of the first black president.

I'm just saying it may not be until 2164 that we see a better Republican party, but it's not an impossibility.
posted by teleri025 at 9:46 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here I was thinking that picture of Trump Jr. holding up an elephant's tail sure has a lot of symbolism now.

ok I repeat myself here but I honestly have no fucking idea how you can stand there like a malignant goon holding up a severed elephant tail for a photo op and not have the entirety of your inner dialogue for the rest of your natural life be "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE, I AM A MONSTER"

fuck Donald Trump and his garbage sons. what a fucking disgrace
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:47 AM on October 12, 2016 [93 favorites]


Suppose someone servived smallpox, and, years later, got cancer. Do you think the parallel argument "He survived smallpox, so he can survive cancer" would hold water?

It's almost as if facile analogies aren't worth much.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


From What the Actual Fact with Desi Lydic on The Daily Show last night: "It's not even that the man lies -- it's more like he rejects the very idea that the point of language is to describe reality."
posted by numaner at 9:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [58 favorites]


the Republicans are the party that values the good things of the past more than the potential good things of the future, while the Democrats are the party that values the good things of the future more than the potential good things of the past.

This feels entirely accurate to me. Particularly given the basic definitions of "liberal" and "conservative" that I was given in high school, which is that "liberal" basically means "driving toward change" while "conservative" means "minimizing change." Neither of those are inherently good or bad; everything depends on context.

These back of the napkin platforms might be somewhat accurate in a textbook sense, but in reality, the Republican/conservative brand in America is not at all "conservative". The only thing they want to "conserve" is white supremacy, every other part of their agenda is deeply reactionary and radical. The want to eliminate progressive taxation, the estate tax and corporate taxes. They want to eliminate nearly every part of business regulation in every sphere from fincial disclosure to job safety. They want to repeal every part of the labor movement. They want to eliminate the entire safety net including Social Security and Medicare. Throw a dart at the globe, they want to bomb it. Wiping away 250 years of human progress is in no way, "conservative", it's wantonly regressive.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [37 favorites]


Speaking as a guy who lives in Texas, yes. It is a completely different state of mind.

It'd be nice to imagine that all of Trump's talk about how America is ruined is just campaign babble, but no, a great many Republicans actively believe it.

It's hard to describe this to people who haven't directly encountered it without sounding mean, or like I'm dismissing them as crazy or unreachable. And, I'll freely admit, my own personality probably makes it harder for people to hear this from me. I am an unapologetic ideologue, I'm strongly partisan, and despite my efforts to the contrary my asshole side comes out a lot.

So please believe me when I say that I'm not being partisan or dismissive of other ideologies here.

For a great many, maybe even most, Republicans certain things are axiomatic. These beliefs are not rooted in reality, they exist independent of reality. They are beliefs which are faith based rather than fact based, and therefore facts to the contrary simply don't register as reasons to question the axiom, but rather as an indicator that the person bringing up the fact is untrustworthy or malevolent, or at best simply ignorant or not part of the in group.

When Trump declares that America has open borders, that America is swarming with illegal immigrants, that the Obama administration is not fighting this but rather encouraging it, he isn't stating facts. He's signaling his membership in the in group. He's reasserting articles of faith. He's affirming that the axioms from which most Republicans draw their conclusions are valid.

Trying to counter this with facts is a futile effort because it's talking about the wrong thing.

It isn't about facts, it isn't about reality, it's about feelings, emotion, beliefs, faith.

Trying to talk about it from a fact standpoint is as futile and pointless as telling a person who believes that Jesus loves them that there isn't any evidence for God. Facts are simply not relevant to the discussion.

I have no idea how they can be reached, or if they can. People with these beliefs are my neighbors and coworkers, and I've found that the best strategy for surviving in an environment where Trump style thinking is prevalent is cowardice, I simply do not talk politics with them and if they try I retreat into mealymouthed platitudes and noncommittal vagaries.
posted by sotonohito at 9:50 AM on October 12, 2016 [56 favorites]


Getting back to the Rudy and the Donald's comments on Canadian health care last night, here are benchmarks for treatment and wait time trending across Canada from the Canadian Institute for Health Information. For some procedures, there's no data available, but it gives a bit of a picture. Quick infographic here.

There's also been a bit of coverage of his claims in Canadian media - Number of Canadians seeking health care abroad in 2015 drops over previous year:
1% of patients receiving specialist treatment went abroad, report says

The report does not break down the numbers to determine how many Canadians went to the U.S. for treatment, but just refers to those who have received treatment in another country.

The report focuses on 12 types of specialist treatments such as urology, neurosurgery and plastic surgery, but does not explain why Canadians chose to travel abroad — just that they did.
So they may have gone abroad for reasons other than wait times (e.g., a new or experimental procedure only available in another country), and not all of those people went to the U.S., either.

And out of those, it's not necessarily wealthy people opting for treatment elsewhere. OHIP, the single payer insurer in Ontario, for example, will (dependent on an approval process) cover expenses for out-of-country treatment if it is:
- either not performed in Ontario by an identical or equivalent procedure, or

- performed in Ontario but the insured person must receive the services outside Canada to avoid a delay that would result in death or medically significant irreversible tissue damage.
Note that the Fraser Institute, whose study is cited in the CBC story in the link, is a right-wing Canadian think tank that, among other things, advocates for more private involvement in health care delivery in Canada. IMHO, they're advocating a "two tier" system that would lead to the erosion of universality.

In any case, it's a right-of-centre source that contradicts Trump's claims about Canadian health care being a "catastrophe" prompting a mass exodus for treatment in the U.S.

It has its problems, sure, but everybody's covered.

To quote Steve Earle:

Yeah, I know, that sucks - that your HMO
Ain't doin' what you thought it would do
But everybody's gotta die sometime and we can't save everybody
It's the best that we can do

posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:50 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm just saying it may not be until 2164 that we see a better Republican party, but it's not an impossibility.

Um. Sure. I totally agree that in the future some party may call themselves the GOP and be totally different than the GOP, in the same way that today's parties are related to those from the past in completely irrelevant ways.
posted by odinsdream at 9:52 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


Huh. The president of the Iowa Federation of Republican Women just resigned because the group pledges to support the entire Republican ticket, and she says she can't do that this election.

Her full journey of how she got to this point was an interesting read, and also gives some clues/tactics on possibly swaying other Republican voters and activists uncomfortable with Trump.
posted by Wordshore at 9:54 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Would it be possible to focus on contemporary right wing thought rather than the brand name it operates under? And would it be possible to entertain the idea that some systems of reasoning are simply bad, as in tending to yield near-universal misery as a result?

That's exactly what I'm advocating, to call it "contemporary right-wing thought" rather than "GOP".

To my mind, if you call the GOP "evil", that just makes moderate Republicans want to double-down and tell you to fuck off, but if you instead say that it is "contemporary right-wing leadership" that's evil, or whatever, that has a better chance of encouraging people like Corb to want to take the GOP back from the very evil people in question.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:56 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


This was Obama's single biggest failing as President. He happily assumed the role of Charlie Brown, time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, again. He opened every negotiation with Republicans assuming they were acting in good faith. They never were, not even once. His opening offer, every time, was a compromise position that represented the minimum position that Democrats could accept, and he lost ground from there, every, single, time.

I’m not a great negotiator, but as a general rule I understand that you tend to open negotiations knowing that you’ll eventually reach a compromise middle ground. If Obama opened negotiations with “the minimum position that Democrats could accept”, that doesn’t make him an optimistic reader of Republicans - it makes him a terrible negotiator in general.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]




This cracked article was already linked upthread, but it's really good.
posted by svenx at 10:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


There is nothing Democrats can do that will affect the Republican Party in any way. The moment they became a party defined by obstructionism, refusal to compromise, and demonizing the opposition party, they stopped being a party that could be worked with.

What happens to the party now is entirely in its own hands. If I were to guess, I would guess it will split or collapse -- it's happened before, like when the anti-immigrant wing of the whigs split off to join the Know-Nothings, or when the Federalist Party collapsed, which ended an era of intense political rivalry like we have now.

The Republican Party has had these fracture lines for a long time. They aren't a single party with a single cohesive political philosophy, but an unweildy collaboration of Plutocrats, single-issue voters, religious extremists, and fringe conspiracy theorists united by their hatred of Democrats.

The Republicans have controlled both houses for almost Obama's entire terms, and have done nothing meaningful with it except engage in endless obstructionism, because they aren't an actual party anymore, but a group of career politicans grasping at straws. Any one policy straw they grab is as likely to infuriate one group of constituents as it will satisfy another, and so they only straws they can safely grab are cheap mechanics for amassing political capital -- jerrymandering, shut downs, fillibusters, etc., all historically nuclear options which the party now threatens and deploys with increasing desperation and frequency.

It used to be a party with a mission. An actual mission, which we can glean from their accomplishments -- to siphon money from the poor to the rich. They were the plutocrat party, and they could placate the others with occasional, oh, anti-abortion bills that they know would go nowhere, or by blocking gun control legislation.

But their power grabs have repeatedly passed too much power on to constituencies they don't really care about, who can then make demands that must be respected. It's the Tea Party just now, and the alt right that followed, and these are anarchists who are just as happy to burn down the party as support it. So we're left with this desperate pandering, and with a candidate who doesn't pander but instead actually reflects the racist, conspiracy minded fury of this group. And they won't just split, they might collapse the party.

And what can the Repubs do? Break off and become the party of Plutocrats again? That never had popular support. Embrace the racists? That's not likely to work in a world where whites will soon be in the minority.

And I don't care, because I never liked the party of Plutocrats, I never liked the way they exploited social fault lines with placating promises as a way of gimmicking support, and I don't like the fact that they have a history of being on a nodding relationship with fascism.

Let them stew in this. They made the problem. It's not the job of Democrats to fix it.
posted by maxsparber at 10:01 AM on October 12, 2016 [69 favorites]


@Nate_Cohn: Why did Clinton surge in the LAT/USC poll today? One 19 year old black Trump supporter dropped out of the sample

My headcannon is that this guy is actually a BLM activist fucking with people. "Ooooh, I'm tooooooootally going to vote for Trump, absolutely, Chad!"
posted by Frowner at 10:02 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


Odinsdream, I get that you're talking about the party of today. I was just pointing out that if we let history show us some things, we see that parties can be redeemed.

The Free Silver Party will rise like the phoenix any day now, I'm tellin' ya. Dumbass Republicans, thinking gold will get them anywhere.
posted by XMLicious at 10:02 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Former Miss Arizona: Trump ‘just came strolling right in’ on naked contestants

At least he wasn't lying when he said he liked to check out the girls backstage...
posted by Burhanistan at 10:02 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


AHHHHHHHhhh I just early voted (Indiana). No different than every other time, but it was weirdly cathartic to know that I was able to actually, really fill out my ballot in the most troubling election of my lifetime. A lot of our downticket stuff was really important too (school levy and fuck you, Eric Holcomb and Trey Hollingsworth—and oh, Todd Young? Fuck you the most).

When I told my co-workers I voted, one of them said, "I dunno, early voting kind of makes me nervous." I told her, "You know what makes me nervous? TRUMP SUPPORTERS ON ELECTION DAY."
posted by Rykey at 10:03 AM on October 12, 2016 [41 favorites]


Just listen to right-wing media for a bit and they do a pretty effective job of quite purposefully painting themselves as radicals. It's part of the whole macho schtick. Ooooh look at us! We're so DANGEROUS! We're broadcasting from a SECRET BUNKER because if anyone knew where we were, we'd be LOCKED UP for being SUCH THREATS to the status quo!!!

It drives me bonkers even beyond just the "I hate every idea you people are expressing right now." I can barely listen to the Radio Free GOP podcast (which is very much #nevertrump and frequently pretty interesting) because it takes it's style cues from right wing talk radio and the pose of "I'm a DANGEROUS REBEL DROPPING TRUTH BOMBS ON THE MAN! So you can see who the real VICTIM OF THE SYSTEM is here [spoiler alert: it's me]." Sit the hell down, you're a pasty white man talking for hours into a microphone. Quit wanking to the idea of being a political prisoner.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:04 AM on October 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


LAT: I have a great idea. Let's make a poll. A crazy poll. Totally different from everybody else's

USC: I like this already

LAT: We'll poll the same people every week

USC: Perfect

LAT: And they'll be quirky people

USC: I was just gonna say that

LAT: Like, we'll have a 19 year old black Republican

USC: Solid gold

LAT: Jill Stein. Let's put actual Jill Stein in our sample group

USC: Can one of our sample voters be a twenty-sided dice that we roll to see who it supports

LAT: Fucking yes

USC: This is going to be awesome
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [141 favorites]


I have no idea how they can be reached, or if they can.

Nope. We just all turn out to vote, and their 27% will be just that. The complement to Hillary Clinton's 73%

The Keyes Constant cohort as you pointed out, vote from axiomatic faith, ( and not in spiritual values terms generally )
posted by mikelieman at 10:06 AM on October 12, 2016


We're so DANGEROUS! We're broadcasting from a SECRET BUNKER because if anyone knew where we were, we'd be LOCKED UP for being SUCH THREATS to the status quo!

The Wikileaks non-announcement on Alex Jones featured Julian Assange from "an undisclosed location" and I wanted to scream "everyone knows where you are! I'm surer of where you are than of where basically anyone I can't see with my eyes is"
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


Ooooh look at us! We're so DANGEROUS! We're broadcasting from a SECRET BUNKER because if anyone knew where we were, we'd be LOCKED UP for being SUCH THREATS to the status quo!!!

this reminds me of nothing so much as kids' cereal or candy ads that posit themselves as being far too extreme for adults to handle
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


Ok, but the Green Party has plenty of downballot candidates.

On that page, seven of 12 are running for US Senate, US House or Governor, i.e. not actually winnable. Three are running in local races that make sense for a Green Party actually serious about getting people elected.

Why's it reasonable to assume they're not spending any money on those campaigns?

Jill Stein's campaign has $2.8m in total receipts, of which $22,300 has been transferred to state GP committees, while half a million was spent on a TV ad buy.

Robin Laverne Wilson, running for the NY Senate seat, has reported $0 in receipts and expenses, and is currently in the FEC naughty corner for not filing proper paperwork. Margaret Flowers has actually received $36k in donations; $20k+ of campaign spending has gone to the chair of the Baltimore Green Party as a campaign management fee. That's just the two candidates at the top of the list.

This is not what a serious grassroots challenge to the political establishment looks like.
posted by holgate at 10:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [57 favorites]


this reminds me of nothing so much as kids' cereal or candy ads that posit themselves as being far too extreme for adults to handle

See also: commercials for cars and trucks that make it seem like the vehicle is actually going to try to kill you. CAN YOU HANDLE THE POWER OF THIS ENGINE WITHOUT DYING IN A FIERY WRECK ON THE SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY???????
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:09 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


I voted early today, something I have never done in a general election before. It just seemed too important to wait.

I walked a few blocks from work to the Hamilton County Board of Elections in downtown Cincinnati and it was like a party down there, y'all. The Hillary supporters were basically running up and down the sidewalk clapping and smiling and high-fiving anyone who would join in. It was infectious enthusiasm and I was able to grab a couple signs so I wouldn't have to stop at headquarters on the way home (I need to put some at the entrance to our neighborhood).

However, the Trump supporters who were there seriously looked embarrassed to be there. They weren't holding their signs up, they weren't making eye contact, and a handful of them left while I was inside, leaving only two of them there to hold down the fort. They didn't even have any sample ballots to hand out! They didn't have any extra signs to give away!

I overheard two Board of Elections staff saying that they've never, ever seen it as busy as it was on the first day of early voting. That's good. Historically, that means that the Democratic base is getting out and when the Democratic base shows up, the Democrats win.

I'm with her! LET'S DO THIS!!!!!
posted by cooker girl at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [98 favorites]


The Free Silver Party will rise like the phoenix any day now, I'm tellin' ya.

I'm hoping for the return of the Bull Moose party, personally.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


The way to appeal to Republicans is to clearly articulate a beneficial vision for the future, do the work of gaining the consensus of the voters, and work hard to get versions of this vision enacted at local, state and federal levels. Also make it clear how the work has benefitted people. Then repeat.

Everything else is bullshit.
posted by argybarg at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


My headcannon is that this guy is actually a BLM activist fucking with people.

One of my main head-scratchers with the LA Times tracker is how gameable it is, especially as it's become the polling crutch for Trump and the Trumpkins. If you're part of the sampled group and you know more or less how it works, you can fuck with it.
posted by holgate at 10:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Since I inadvertently kicked off the "whither the Republicans" debate, let me clarify that I do not advocate:

a. giving in on any Democratic principles to "assist" with unity or;
b. that doing this work is the job of the Democratic party.

As with any kind of therapy or growth, true change can't be imposed from outside. It's possible the party is simply too fragile to change, which means it will fracture; it's possible a group inside the party will find some worthwhile principles (that voters respond to) and take it back. My interest, as an American, is in the question "so long as we have two parties, what should they look like?" and apparently we don't know.

I think what's really interesting (sad) about both party stances is that at least since the Civil War, each party has taken its turn being the White Supremacy Party. First Democrats, now Republicans. I think that description has in some way taken over the party system entirely, so that now it's very hard to imagine white supremacy as something that's simply rejected in political discourse.
posted by emjaybee at 10:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


It has been a while since I've heard the label "tax-and-spend" being widely used to identify Democrats, but since it was one of the first identifying political traits I learned in my junior high education, it has stuck, and still bubbles to mind from time to time. At the time, I accepted the perjorative nature of the label, and would mock the archetype of the foolish and wasteful Washington fat cat with his hand in the piggy bank. At that time, it made sense to me that Republicans just wanted everybody to slow down, take a deep breath and save a few dollars for a rainy day. The framing made perfect sense to a kid whose main goal was to collect enough babysitting dollars for some record albums.

And the framing still makes sense if you exclude from your mental model the Iraq War, the Bush tax cuts, the cost of the Trump Wall, and I don't suppose I have to go on. Yet for millions of Americans, the myth persists that Republicans are fiscally responsible and Democrats aren't. I don't suppose I will ever in my life vote for a Republican again, except perhaps for the odd local seat if the Dem contender is just ridiculous, which happens, or if we ever see the Democratic analogue of Trump, which my poor brain just cannot even.

I miss the days, though, when we at least ostensibly had two parties that could keep each other in check and rein in excesses. That's the way our system is supposed to work. I'm shedding zero tears over the bifurcation of the Republican iceberg, but I don't think most of us know how this machine is supposed to work now. I'm not fearful or cynical about it, but I do hope that smarter minds are working over the ramifications of this new model.
posted by vverse23 at 10:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


zombieflanders: @Nate_Cohn: Why did Clinton surge in the LAT/USC poll today? One 19 year old black Trump supporter dropped out of the sample

Direct link to NY Times article
There is a 19-year-old black man in Illinois who has no idea of the role he is playing in this election.

He is sure he is going to vote for Donald J. Trump.

And he has been held up as proof by conservatives — including outlets like Breitbart News and The New York Post — that Mr. Trump is excelling among black voters. He has even played a modest role in shifting entire polling aggregates, like the Real Clear Politics average, toward Mr. Trump.

How? He’s a panelist on the U.S.C. Dornsife/Los Angeles Times Daybreak poll, which has emerged as the biggest polling outlier of the presidential campaign. Despite falling behind by double digits in some national surveys, Mr. Trump has generally led in the U.S.C./LAT poll. He held the lead for a full month until Wednesday, when Hillary Clinton took a nominal lead.

Our Trump-supporting friend in Illinois is a surprisingly big part of the reason. In some polls, he’s weighted as much as 30 times more than the average respondent, and as much as 300 times more than the least-weighted respondent.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:13 AM on October 12, 2016 [52 favorites]


This is not what a serious grassroots challenge to the political establishment looks like.

I'm not really sure what a serious grassroots challenge would look like anymore - the amounts of money required point either to a relative few millionaire and billionaire donors (which isn't grassroots), or an extremely large group of lower/middle/upper class donors (which are mostly declared Red or Blue already).

I can see grassroots change within the political establishment, but not outside it.
posted by Mooski at 10:13 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


One 19 year old black Trump supporter dropped out of the sample

Based on our polling, we believe the GOP may be in trouble, as a significant portion of its support has just gone home to play Call Of Duty and says they can't hang out again until like next Thursday

they did point out, though, that they will text us if they're free this weekend at all
posted by Greg Nog at 10:14 AM on October 12, 2016 [115 favorites]


In re the Greens: Minnesota has had a few Greens in office - a mayor and some city council people.

One of our city council people, Dean Zimmerman (from my neighborhood; I used to see him around all the time) was indicted in 2006 on corruption charges and went to jail for 2.5 years.

Another, Cam Gordon, absolutely knifed local activists on police brutality issues in the wake of RNC 2008, and I hold this seriously against him since I went to the fucking City Council meeting holding a sign in support of his proposal, only to find that he had changed it dramatically from what he'd told us before.

The mayor of Cass Lake, Elaine Fleming, seems perfectly cromulent and seems to come to being a Green from an indigenous rights/environmentalist perspective.

But my personal experience with Greens locally has been pretty crummy. I have not been especially impressed with most of the organizing I've seen them do on other issues, either, which is disappointing. IME of being organized by them, so to speak, they are not good at reaching people outside the seriously-hippie demographic, even to the point where they have trouble with punks and other left subcultures.
posted by Frowner at 10:15 AM on October 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


And I only just realised that Egg's running mate is Mindy Finn for an actual McMuFinn ticket.
posted by holgate at 10:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [111 favorites]


Zorak: Ugh! You bloody fool!

Space Ghost: Sore loser!

Zorak: British imperialist swine!

Space Ghost: Tax and spend Democrat!

Zorak: Jive turkey!

Space Ghost: Big baby! Baby mantis!
posted by Existential Dread at 10:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


this reminds me of nothing so much as kids' cereal or candy ads that posit themselves as being far too extreme for adults to handle

Extreme cereal. Extreme cereal. I'm saying, extreme cereal.

TRUMP™ PLATINUM GRAHAMS™. BECAUSE FOR ONCE, GOLDEN WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH.
posted by XMLicious at 10:17 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Whelp, starting out today with a full rage bar after reading that an elector in my home state of Washington says he might reject Clinton and just pay the fine for being a faithless elector. I can't even with this sanctimonious shit. This jackass has embarrassed me as a Washingtonian already by taking part in that Buster Press Tent Tantrum at the DNC and I can't believe I have to trust him to represent me as an elector.

Is there any way for a citizen to challenge an elector or petition for their replacement this close to the vote?
posted by EatTheWeak at 10:17 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Also, everybody really liked Dean Zimmerman. No one wanted to believe it when he was indicted and everyone wanted to believe it was a set-up, but as events unfolded, it sure looks like he was on the take. It was a huge, huge betrayal of a lot of very sincere, well-meaning people. Not that this is unique to the Greens at all, but it didn't make people think that the Greens were better than, say, an honest, left-leaning DFLer.
posted by Frowner at 10:17 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


No less absurd than it is to suggest that the GOP is 'a failed, evil endeavour' that must be destroyed.

Every Republican administration since Nixon (except maybe Ford) has been actively criminal. During Watergate Nixon committed obstruction of justice and had the head of the FBI destroy evidence. During Iran–Contra Reagan and George H.W. Bush illegally sold weapons to Iran to illegally fund the Contras. George W. Bush lied us into invading Iraq in violation of US and international law. Each of these guys should have been impeached and removed from office for abusing the office of the president.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:18 AM on October 12, 2016 [31 favorites]


> My interest, as an American, is in the question "so long as we have two parties, what should they look like?" and apparently we don't know.

Are we talking about long term, beyond the next 20 years or so? Then the chances are we end up with a left wing party that is in favor of liberal projects based on higher tax revenue, and a right wing party that is focused on lower taxes and conservative (literally, not "Conservative") ideas.

The current Democratic party will form the bulk of the right wing, along with sane members of the current Republicans. The Bernie wing of the Democrats will form the left wing party, along with the non-feckless Greens.

Then there'll be the noisy nationalistic white-pride far right rump, and possibly a further left Greens and Socialists wing.

But this is all in the long run - and as we all know, in the long run...
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:18 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


> His opening offer, every time, was a compromise position that represented the minimum position that Democrats could accept, and he lost ground from there, every, single, time.

He would have lost ground no matter what. The Republicans in the House and Senate were entirely upfront about the fact that they were going to obstruct his every move no matter what, because that was their only goal.
posted by rtha at 10:19 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


And I only just realised that Egg's running mate is Mindy Finn for an actual McMuFinn ticket

Can we call her "Dunk"?
posted by Slothrup at 10:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


The other issue with changing the Republican Party is that the party itself doesn't control all that much. The power rests with an overlapping collection of lobbying groups, "think tanks," talk-radio hosts, and Fox News. They're the ones who are ginning up primaries and primary threats that are crazifying the base.

I don't know how the party can change course without getting a new base. I can't see any way for that to happen in the short term. And I don't see any of these groups looking to moderate over the long term.
posted by PlusDistance at 10:21 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]




So the Trump 28th mixup is asking to be made a 30 second ad.

*Clip of Trump saying go out and Vote Nov 28th*

"The date is Nov 8th, Donald. The 28th is when your trial for fraud with Trump University starts. A President should be able to keep the people in mind, and not their own priorities"
posted by mrzarquon at 10:23 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]


Egg, I dreamed that we won Utah.
posted by asteria at 10:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [16 favorites]


Maybe contact WA Secretary of State Kim Wyman:

48 states, including Washington, use a “winner-take-all” system; the presidential ticket that receives the most votes in the state are entitled to all of Washington’s electoral votes. The nominees for President and Vice President that receive the most votes in Washington’s 2016 General Election will receive all 12 of Washington's electoral votes and that presidential ticket will send 12 electors to Olympia on December 19th to cast their votes for the nominees.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


I mean, it doesn't seem like a conundrum at all to me. He was elected to carry out the will of the people of Washington State. If the people's will is that Hillary Clinton gets Washington's electoral votes, it has nothing whatsoever to do with his personal choice.
posted by cooker girl at 10:24 AM on October 12, 2016 [15 favorites]


queenofbithynia: "[Michelle Obama] deserves more respect than this, as do all the women who have run for high political office in this country, which you can in fact do no matter who your husband is."

Indeed, and I think the next major hurdle for our country will be whether we let a woman get within striking distance of the White House without getting a man to “vouch” for her.

Hillary is supremely qualified for this job, and it bothers me that if her husband had not been president, she would not have had so much time to let America get to know her. Leaving out vice-presidential picks for now — because they're impossible to divorce from electoral strategy — we seem to be awful at pipelining intelligent women into positions of power that have traditionally been stepping stones to the presidency — senator, governor of a big state, or a major cabinet position. And the ones who do get into those positions are parliamentarians like Nancy Pelosi or technocrats like Madeleine Albright.

So I fear that, much like the problems in the STEM pipeline, we are unconsciously guiding our best women away from podiums and toward supporting roles. I hope that Hillary's superhuman ability to shrug off bullshit gendered abuse will make her a sort of Jackie Robinson figure so that the gauntlet itself can be navigated more easily next time around.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [25 favorites]


As a Washington resident, how do I help him make the right choice here?

Well, this is what HRC was talking about with public and private points-of-view.

This person's PRIVATE belief is that there isn't a heck of a lot of difference between Clinton and Trump.

This person's PUBLIC DUTY is to cast their vote for the person their constituents nominated. elected.

Remind them that they need to put their private feelings aside and do their public duty, or resign.
posted by mikelieman at 10:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


A political historian explains why Trump’s tape could destroy the GOP A short article including a nice narrative of how the Republican Party has changed, and why.
posted by Peach at 10:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]


This is not what a serious grassroots challenge to the political establishment looks like.

But that's almost exactly what Trump's campaign looks like and... oh... I see now.
posted by Talez at 10:26 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


As a Washington resident, how do I help him make the right choice here?

As a fellow Washington resident: You don't. I believe him when he says that any attempts to persuade him will only make him dig in harder. You're dealing with a very childish mindset, one that says the world is me-shaped. Nothing any of us can do about that.
posted by argybarg at 10:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]


It has been a while since I've heard the label "tax-and-spend" being widely used to identify Democrats, but since it was one of the first identifying political traits I learned in my junior high education, it has stuck, and still bubbles to mind from time to time.

My response to this was always "as opposed to 'don't tax but still spend' GWB?"
posted by Groundhog Week at 10:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


No less absurd than it is to suggest that the GOP is “a failed, evil endeavour” that must be destroyed.

Every Republican administration since Nixon (except maybe Ford) has been actively criminal.

If you wish to say that the “Post-Southern-Strategy GOP” has been an “evil endeavor” (certainly not failed, given its widespread success) it would be more difficult to have a beef here.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Todd S. Purdum at Politico (Magazine): “The Man Behind the Tapes That Could Sink the Donald”
posted by Going To Maine at 10:31 AM on October 12, 2016


"Liberals will need to hold Clinton accountable for some of her centrist tendencies if she's elected...."

Do you mean after the election? Clearly you fail to grasp the dynamics of our system. Unless you are talking about the next election cycle. Sorry, I don't mean to dwell in snark but the word accountable made me spit up some coffee.

meanwhile, back in the jingo.
posted by mule98J at 10:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Indeed, and I think the next major hurdle for our country will be whether we let a woman get within striking distance of the White House without getting a man to “vouch” for her.

I think that if Liz Warren had made a bid for the job she'd have gotten within striking distance. We need more Elizabeth Warrens.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:31 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Anecdotally: My friend in Utah, a Mormon, is pretty disgusted with the whole thing. There is no way she would ever vote for Clinton (I suspect any support of abortion whatsoever is the deal), but she can't vote for Trump. She thinks Utah is going third party.
posted by Peach at 10:32 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


This cracked article was already linked upthread, but it's really good.

Ha! That county election results map gives me the warm fuzzies because one of the exceptions to the country v city rule is a little sea of blue in Northeast South Dakota where my extended family is from. Marshall, Day and Roberts counties in SD, Sargent and Ransom in ND, Traverse in MN - combined total population of like 30k and change, all old family farms and agribusiness, and voting blue. The difference? Deep, old Farmers Union ties and values. There are models of rural culture in America that don't conform to the stereotypes, and some of them are AWESOME.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:32 AM on October 12, 2016 [32 favorites]


Previously on NSAID's political journey as a Pentecostal


As I mentioned before, since the beginning I certainly was not going to vote for Trump, but here's some of the literature that articulate some of the reasons why I'm voting for Hillary.
  • Charlie Sykes’ Air War - I grew up hearing Charlie on the radio, so knowing that other conservatives weren't enamored with Trump was really great. This article includes mention of his ex-wife being a potential nominee to the Supreme Court, and that even that isn't a good enough reason to vote for Trump.
    Sykes says he’s “very close” to his ex-wife. “She would be absolutely fantastic for the court,” he says. “That would be an outstanding choice.” There’s just one problem. “I don’t trust [Trump] that he will appoint the people he says. I don’t believe the promises he’s making aren’t negotiable. He’s backed off virtually everything.”
  • Op-Ed: Filling Supreme Court vacancies isn't a good enough reason to vote for Trump - Written by two conservative law professors.
    But the Supreme Court is not enough. Our nation confronts a revanchist Russia; a bellicose, expansionist China; terrorism in Europe; and civil war in the Middle East — in short, a world reeling at the edge of chaos. The president's first responsibilities are to maintain national security, advance our national interests in foreign affairs and provide direction for the military.
  • Save the Republican Party: Vote for Clinton - written by James K. Glassman, director of the George W. Bush Institute.
    Unfortunately, the Trump campaign has already cost the Republican Party its credibility. Out of some twisted notion of loyalty, party leaders previously seen as devoted to conservative ideals and policy are now viewed widely as unprincipled cynics. And they deserve to be. How do you recover from that?
  • Clinton Karma - written by someone by the name of Chris Ladd, formerly running his blog with the domain GOPlifer.com and now at PoliticalOrphans.com. He's had a bit journey this election season.
    After years of loathing, I am about to cast a vote to send a Clinton to the White House. Not only will I be voting for Hillary Clinton, I will do it in gratitude for her leadership. A Clinton is now all that stands between the country I love and a dangerous megalomaniac nominated by my former partisans. I am counting on Hillary Clinton to save us all. [He then goes on to list the great, um, "family values" of Gingrich, Foley, and other Republicans.]
  • Four Issues to Consider Before You Support Trump – What is Really at Stake - written by Samuel Whitefield, who is on the leadership team at the International House of Prayer. Long article, lots of citations. There's some specific prophetic and eschatological ideals here that may not quite match up with all Evangelicals/Protestants, but I don't think it's anything that would cause people to completely write off the entire article. Certainly no more than the length would.
    I have no doubt that Trump would pray a prayer if he thought it would give him support on the campaign trail, however Jesus was clear that we are to evaluate men by their fruit. Until there is a genuine, public brokenness backed up by a radical change in demeanor, a commitment to repair past wrongs, and real fruit to demonstrate the truth of the commitment we should ignore any claims of an election conversion. That is one of many political tricks that have been repeatedly used on the church. It is time for our gullibility to stop. We have to be honest and ask if we sometimes are so enamored with powerful men that we want some proof that they are Christians even when their behavior is the exact opposite so that we can enjoy access to their power. [...] We enjoy the awesome privilege of voting, a privilege the vast majority of humanity has never had and something the biblical authors could never imagine. We should engage in every area of society, including politics, but we should look to [the prophet] Daniel as our example. Daniel was an influence in government and politics but he never put his hope in it and was therefore able to be a prophetic voice. He never confused Babylon with Zion and that’s why Daniel was just as able to serve as easily under Babylon as under Persia. We should be equally able to be a prophetic voice to the Republicans and to the Democrats. Becoming the slave of either for the sake of a little political influence will cause us to abdicate our higher calling to be a true light in a dark culture.
  • I'm pro-life. And I'm voting for Hillary. Here's why. - written by Shannon Dingle speaker and writer. I'd never heard of her, but it seems like she might have some name recognition in certain circles. Also long, but an article I really like.
    Well, nothing [has changed] in my stance toward abortion. I’m still opposed to it. But since Roe v. Wade, most Republicans have talked a lot about abortion while doing little to make meaningful change in that area of policy. Furthermore, they’ve opposed or even stalled measures that could prevent abortions by targeting the underlying causes, like poverty, education, lack of access to healthcare, and supports for single parent and low-income families. In fact, I suspect these reasons contribute to why abortion rates rose under Reagan, rose under the first Bush, dropped under Clinton, held steady under the second Bush, and have been dropping under Obama. As such, I’m not sure we can hold that voting Republican is the best thing for abortion rates in this country. [article goes on to talk about Hillary's work with the Children’s Defense Fund, starting the first rape crisis hotline in Arkansas, and other "pro-life-after-birth" ideas.]

I made mention of who wrote each article because that was important to me - I try to be careful about who I allow to give input to my life. If you share these articles, the minor appeal to authority may result in the author just being labeled a RINO, but so it goes.

Speaking of RINOs, that's probably exactly what I am right now (I'm fine with taxes, I don't want the CFPB shut down to reduce the size of the government, I'm really really not convinced legislating morality is gonna help anyone, etc), but at this point I'm really starting to question people who are "voting their conscience" and going with Trump. In fact, I've been a little annoyed over the fact that I can't even pray about who I should vote for. Like, I'm not going to ask God if I should go punch someone in the face, you know? Likewise, I get really uncomfortable with the idea of asking God if I should vote for Trump. I can't do it without laughing. So yeah, I guess I'm a RINO at best.

I'm also following my vote for Hillary with my down ticket votes. Besides the presidential race, my ballot only has two other races where a non-Democrat is an option, but I'm pretty fed up with the party as a whole being shocked, shocked! to find out Trump said naughty things on a hot mic.

On Facebook I'm seeing a lot of people start calling out Trump on things, especially since the tape released. This has especially been women who previously haven't (to my knowledge) care much about politics, but have seen that Trump is really too much. It's a really nice feeling knowing that I'm not alone in that, though I'm being a little cautious in how enthusiastically I talk about certain candidates on social media. Some things I just need to ease into with face-to-face conversations.

FWIW, I think this election has really made the idea of the Christian left much more palatable to people. Some people are stuck on "Jail Hillary" (and oh boy, I have thoughts on those people, who for all their talk can't seem to read an FBI press release), but for people who aren't, I think talking about God's love and what that looks like really starts making a good argument for voting Democratic. But that's probably a whole different novel length post, and is pretty well represented by the Shannon Dingle article I linked to.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 10:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [97 favorites]


Maybe contact WA Secretary of State Kim Wyman:

Thank you. They directed me to the state Democratic Party. Placing a call now.
posted by EatTheWeak at 10:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I keep saying Elizabeth Warren is too smart to run. She would end up at best a one-termer liked Jimmy Carter, because she would find it too difficult to compromise. You need someone who is a career politician and is able to swim with the snakes.
posted by Peach at 10:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


PSA: I just verified my registration right now ( NYSVoter Public Information - Voter Registration Search ) to ensure I can vote for Hillary.
posted by mikelieman at 10:35 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Ohio Trump sign distribution point - keeping it erm classy.
posted by Wordshore at 10:35 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


I keep saying Elizabeth Warren is too smart to run

She is going to kick so much ass as Secretary of the Treasury.
posted by mikelieman at 10:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


Ohio Trump sign distribution point - keeping it erm classy.

Some of the other photos are just as classic. Like the Trump volunteer photo being entirely white. Or the "Trump Train" being a boat.
posted by Talez at 10:37 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


“I have to either step down from being this thing I was elected to be or I’ve got to step down from being myself,” he said. “That’s the teeter totter I’m on.”

As a Washington resident, how do I help him make the right choice here?


There's a real similarity between this situation and that of Kim Davis. Your conscience or your public duty? If he can't bring himself to cast his vote for the people's choice then he should resign and let someone else do it.
posted by rocket88 at 10:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]




Are we back to putting Elizabeth Warren in jobs she doesn't want? Why this need to promote everyone we like to a "higher" position, despite their preference and where they can be effective?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:41 AM on October 12, 2016 [39 favorites]


But no, for quite some time, Republicans have absolutely not been the party of sticking to tradition. They've been the radicals. Maybe your description is targeted toward what you think the party ought to be, but it does not line up with how actual Republicans have governed over the last 40-plus years.

Why consider that just because something's been around for 40 years it's set in stone? Took the French 35 years to get another king on the throne after their first revolution. Does that make the Bourbon restoration radical?

I'm being a bit flip, but I do think that's the crux, here. Grover Norquist style traditional limited government fiscal conservatism would mean going back to something pre-New Deal, in terms of the federal government's structure. That's really the dream.

But the thing is, it's not really a majority position. or, as maxsparber put it, a lot more succinctly than me:

And what can the Repubs do? Break off and become the party of Plutocrats again? That never had popular support. Embrace the racists? That's not likely to work in a world where whites will soon be in the minority.

I don't know where they do from here, either. A straight low-tax, limited-government, non-outright-bigoted party already exists and it's the Libertairans and best case scenario is like 20% of the electorate. The vision of a "sane" GOP that people in this thread would like --- one that accepts social security and some form of universal health care are here to stay, that climate change exists and we will need new laws to force change to deal with it --- this is basically Democrat-lite. And it leaves their current base out in the cold. Given that embracing all the worst tendencies of that base has quite nearly gotten them the presidency, given that a vast media machine exists whose survival depends on feeding that base paranoia, it's hard for me to imagine that "eh, fuck it, we'll just give up on all our most cherished policies" is going to be the solution...
posted by Diablevert at 10:43 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


Apparently there was a camp out at the BoE in Cincinnati!
posted by cooker girl at 10:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


njohnson23: He seems to always say that only he can fix things. Him alone. ... Is he really that clueless about how government works?

That's exactly how government works in many places, and it's how many people wish it would work in the US. It's an attitude that's worth being afraid of, because - American exceptionalism aside - it has proven to be a viable governing option. Maybe even the most viable governing option, if you look across societies and time.
posted by clawsoon at 10:44 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Glad to see the 19 year old black Trump supporter make the NYT-- the reddit user cabinet_space who discovered this weeks ago and has been monitoring (stalking?) his activity since has dubbed him "Carlton".
posted by acidic at 10:45 AM on October 12, 2016 [23 favorites]


I'm out of favorites again, and there are so many great comments and links here. But that Ohio celebration is the cutest I've seen long time
posted by mumimor at 10:45 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]




She is going to kick so much ass as Secretary of the Treasury.

A Clinton Presidency is going to do a lot of good, but it's unlikely it'll do that much good. We'll have a Big Banker as Secy of the Treasury, as is tradition. There's probably a Hamilton quote about it.
posted by notyou at 10:45 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm out of favorites again, and there are so many great comments and links here. But that Ohio celebration is the cutest I've seen long time

No favourites? Then why the hell am I still posting? Dammit!
posted by Talez at 10:46 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Today begins the final 100 days of President Obama’s time in office.

Holy crap.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:47 AM on October 12, 2016 [52 favorites]


> She is going to kick so much ass as Secretary of the Treasury.

I hope for this so much.

What I do see, and have seen this throughout Clintons career, is she really does appear to bring successful women along with her as part of her entourage. I am convinced there are lot more women than just Elizabeth Warren as potential Presidential and political positions, we just haven't seen them thanks to the spotlight not being on them.

Warren was barely a political figure eight years ago. I think after eight years of a Clinton presidency, we might be talking about a whole new group of successors.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [20 favorites]


I am curious to see the effect this has on the Evangelical community. American Fundamentalism used to be fairly apolitical, in the sense that they tend to see the secular world as corrupt and too much participating in it as corrupting. But the Republican Party began actively courting them thanks, largely, to Jerry Falwell, who was as politically ambitious as he was religious and formed the Moral Majority in 1979. The anti-abortion movement was originally Catholic, with Southern Baptists actually supporting looser restrictions on abortion laws until 1980, but then evangelicals took over up the anti-abortion flag. Unsurprisingly, this was the year after the start of the Moral Majority, and I think it is impossible to see the two as being disconnected.

And so Republican candidates have playacted as being Evangelical, or at least fellow travellers, for decades. But I have to imagine Trump is a scales-from-eyes moment, and I know that a number of prominent Christian groups have come out against him.

I am curious to see if there is a movement by Evangelicals to retreat from public life in the wake of this. I would be ready to get the hell out of dodge.
posted by maxsparber at 10:48 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


Some people seem to appear slightly excited about early voting in Ohio.

Serious question - is that in danger of being seen as an electioneering violation, the way you can't carry anything with a slogan within 350 feet of the poll station or whatever?...
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:48 AM on October 12, 2016


(I mean, it's awesome, but I'm also paranoid)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:48 AM on October 12, 2016


Are we back to putting Elizabeth Warren in jobs she doesn't want? Why this need to promote everyone we like to a "higher" position, despite their preference and where they can be effective?


I 100% agree with this, but I honestly think a lot of this comes around because the rest of us are just super jealous of Massachusetts and want to cast a vote for her too.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:49 AM on October 12, 2016 [12 favorites]


Left a voicemail and sent an email to the Washington State Democratic Party, will await word for now. If any other Washington State Democrats in this thread would like to express their concern to the party about potential faithless elector Robert Satiacum Jr, the party's phone number and contact form are over here.
posted by EatTheWeak at 10:50 AM on October 12, 2016 [16 favorites]




is that in danger of being seen as an electioneering violation, the way you can't carry anything with a slogan within 350 feet of the poll station or whatever?...

Law in Ohio is 100 feet from the entrance and 10 feet from the actual line. If the front door of the location is behind the band (which is where the measuring would start from, at least in Illinois*), they are probably fine.

(* Please stay tuned for the rest of the election where I pretend to be super knowledgeable about things because I did 4 hours of Election Judge training.)
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:54 AM on October 12, 2016 [26 favorites]


Trying to counter this with facts is a futile effort because it's talking about the wrong thing.

THIS. Heads up liberal hippie lady-lovin' types! This is why the pussy tape worked! But obviously there needs to be more content than that to continue the rout, so, given that facts are a waste of time, what else is there?
posted by petebest at 10:55 AM on October 12, 2016




Are we back to putting Elizabeth Warren in jobs she doesn't want? Why this need to promote everyone we like to a "higher" position, despite their preference and where they can be effective?

I posted this in reply to a suggestion that there were no women capable of getting close to the white house without the explicit help of a man. in no way was i suggesting that Warren wants or should have the job, simply that she is a credible female candidate who has forged a path on her own. please read in context.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:58 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Trump Hump the Chair Song (Somebody Call Clint Eastwood)

I giggled at this way more then I should have. My humor circuts are all over the place because of this election.
posted by Jalliah at 10:59 AM on October 12, 2016


Elizabeth Warren is absolutely vital to the Senate. If it's a 50/50 split especially but she's from a state wirh a Republican governor. If moving her from the Senate risks a plurality or slight majority she should stay where she is.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Rudy Giuliani: "Hillary, we don't want your socialized medicine. Take it and stuff it up your... I didn't say it!"

Party of Lincoln, folks.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:00 AM on October 12, 2016 [19 favorites]




Regarding the McMuffin effect: I wonder how it might spill over into other Western red states with high Mormon populations? In particular, I wonder if it might be enough to seal Trump's doom in Nevada, and if we might see Idaho and Wyoming pinker than usual (as opposed to bright, Nancy-Reagan-red) this time around.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 11:02 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Elizabeth Warren is absolutely vital to the Senate. If it's a 50/50 split especially but she's from a state wirh a Republican governor. If moving her from the Senate risks a plurality or slight majority she should stay where she is.

Majority leader of the Senate, then?
posted by entropicamericana at 11:02 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


(If) moving her from the Senate risks a plurality or slight majority she should stay where she is.

I don't disagree. I'm sure she can share her thoughts with whomever the Sec. Treasury is easily enough. Maybe teach a class at Georgetown? Can a sitting Senator do that?
posted by mikelieman at 11:03 AM on October 12, 2016


I posted this in reply to a suggestion that there were no women capable of getting close to the white house without the explicit help of a man. in no way was i suggesting that Warren wants or should have the job, simply that she is a credible female candidate who has forged a path on her own. please read in context.

I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to the person who said she was going to be a great Secretary of the Treasury.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:03 AM on October 12, 2016


Except they're really choosy about which parts of the past they want.

So one interesting thing that I've been slowly pondering for the last few years - though it's difficult to explain or quantify, so please bear with me - is the concept that things - and time, and cultural understandings - don't all change at the same rate. Some change slower than others and some faster. So the time periods that we all are living in, are not just different belief areas, but we are actually experiencing almost different realities, and that's why we're talking past each other sometimes.

When I was in the Army, I lived and spent most of my life on Army posts, which culturally, for the most part, is like some weird equalized version of the 1950s. People don't always lock their doors. They let their kids play without supervision, and it's fine. Everyone has very good job security. Most households have only one working parent, because you can absolutely afford to do so. There were almost no drugs, because every family had one person being regularly drug tested. Everyone goes to watch the fireworks displays together. But everybody bleeds green, so it was a really racially diverse rah-rah America that did not exist in the broader actual 1950s. But for me, for the ten years I lived there, that was just what suburban America was during the 2000s.

When I left, I had to go essentially from 1950s but good, straight into the NYC 2010s, which are both good and bad. To me, it seemed like everything changed so fast - like it was a blur around me. All of a sudden, words and politics and economics and everything was just different. I turned from a progressive to a conservative overnight, just by stepping out of one place and into another. I'm the same person - but the things that were radically progressive for Army-1950s (support of gay marriage, alternative religions, etc) are just kind of the bare minimum in NYC-lefty-2010s. But when my now-husband came to join me from Seattle, to him NYC-2010s looked like Seattle-1970s, and he was astonished by what he considered retrograde attitudes.

And I wonder how that plays out all over the country. I wonder how much various places are also experiencing a time warp, either deliberately or because of isolation. I think of how people experience those time warps as they get older and still remember their best time as a particular decade which is forever preserved for them. I wonder how much people from those various pockets see each other as essentially time-travelling space aliens. How many people are trying to be simultaneously conservative and progressive, in turns, but are working with a different understanding of What Is Now than everyone else. And I really, really wonder how that impacts everyone's voting, and their understanding about where other people are and what information they're voting with.
posted by corb at 11:04 AM on October 12, 2016 [131 favorites]


Trump on the Commission for Presidential Debates: "I have no respect for that group by the way, I'm done."

I wonder if this means he's not going to be at the 3rd debate.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:04 AM on October 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


Ben Wofford interviews school teachers and officials at Politico: “‘Mrs. G, He Said the P-Word!’”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


>> Trump on the Commission for Presidential Debates: "I have no respect for that group by the way, I'm done."
> I wonder if this means he's not going to be at the 3rd debate.


Please please please. I'm not sure my liver can withstand a third debate.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:05 AM on October 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Trump on the Commission for Presidential Debates: "I have no respect for that group by the way, I'm done."

Trumpykins needs a nap. He's starting to get stroppy.
posted by Talez at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ohio Trump sign distribution point - keeping it erm classy.

I'm okay with this. It exposes the problem with delegating sign production to local parties: they get all creative (typically in a crappy "we know DTP!" way) and so you get that kind of aggressive base-of-the-base shit scattered around localities.
posted by holgate at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2016


He might be going to the third debate but he will hack his own hole into the wall to enter.
posted by Namlit at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [5 favorites]


> Trump on the Commission for Presidential Debates: "I have no respect for that group by the way, I'm done."


1) Don't worry Donald, no one really had much respect for you either.
2) Fuck your notion of respect
3) Does this mean with get 90 minutes of Prime Time Q&A with Clinton/Kaine?

I pity the person who has to explain, probably in language for a 4th grader, why giving Clinton a national spotlight for 90 minutes isn't really a good idea. Worse that showing up.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


Elizabeth Warren is absolutely vital to the Senate. If it's a 50/50 split especially but she's from a state wirh a Republican governor. If moving her from the Senate risks a plurality or slight majority she should stay where she is.

Majority leader of the Senate, then?

I dunno. How good is she at raising money for fellow Democrats and getting them to line up on votes?
posted by Going To Maine at 11:06 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


since Roe v. Wade, most Republicans have talked a lot about abortion while doing little to make meaningful change in that area of policy

After 9/11 George W. Bush had sky-high approval ratings and Republicans controlled both houses of Congress. Bush had said he would support a constitutional amendment banning abortion. If they didn't ban it then, when will the ever?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [18 favorites]


I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to the person who said she was going to be a great Secretary of the Treasury.

My phrasing may have been more precise, but whether or not she wants or takes the job is irrelevant to the actual point.

There is no one better qualified to spend their working day spanking bankers. ( This is a reference to an old bloom county comic strip, btw... )

And they need spanking. I say that with decades of experience in financial services and banking.
posted by mikelieman at 11:07 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


(Also, it sounds like it is sinking in to him that he is losing, and doesn't want to do this anymore).
posted by mrzarquon at 11:08 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Majority leader of the Senate, then?
That is likely going to be Chuck Schumer, the guy I had to harass day and night about his affinity for fracking. (Fracking is sort of fine for energy independence purposes, but the Cheney loopholes make it absolutely unacceptable and I told him that if he wants fracking those holes need patched.)
posted by xyzzy at 11:08 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trump on the Commission for Presidential Debates: "I have no respect for that group by the way, I'm done."

So no next debate for today at least. Or maybe a few hours when he forgets he said it, or decides to change his mind and purposely forget he said. So we'll get days of , no 3rd debate, maybe 3rd debate if Hillary stops doing this or Ryan apologizes (whine of the day) , no truely no 3rd debate, of course I'll be at the 3rd debate, what are you talking about he never said he wouldn't debate he's the best debater ever and on and on.

But then again maybe unshackled Donald is just relieved that no one will tell he has to do it anymore and this is really what he wants. (Though of course it's everyone elses fault that he can't do it)
posted by Jalliah at 11:09 AM on October 12, 2016 [13 favorites]


"His path to victory — preventing either of the major candidates from getting 270 electoral votes and throwing the election to the House of Representatives — may not be very plausible. But for McMullin, the campaign is really about something much simpler: doing his part to fight what he sees as a threat to this country, as he had done in the shadows his whole career." WaPo

For those in the know, would it be the new house or the old house?
posted by Oyéah at 11:10 AM on October 12, 2016


Pussy Fights Back

Protesters aiming to derail Donald Trump’s White House run descended on Trump Tower on Wednesday to give the GOP presidential nominee an earful

Warning: NY Post
posted by petebest at 11:11 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rudy Giuliani told Donald Trump supporters at a rally on Wednesday that he “doesn’t remember” seeing Hillary Clinton after the attacks on the Twin Towers — despite being photographed right next to her at Ground Zero.: I remember September 11, 2001. Yes, you helped to get benefits for the people who were injured that day. But I heard her say she was there that day. I was there that day. I don’t remember seeing Hillary Clinton there. That was like when she said she had to run through gunfire. That turned out to be — what do we call it? A lie!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [45 favorites]


I pity the person who has to explain, probably in language for a 4th grader, why giving Clinton a national spotlight for 90 minutes isn't really a good idea. Worse that showing up.

If he really is deciding not to do it my thought is they will schedule their own Donald only 90 min reality show/debate at the same time. The question would be how much the media would decide to cover it.
posted by Jalliah at 11:12 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


> She is going to kick so much ass as Secretary of the Treasury.

Senate. Majority. Leader.

tbf this was my second reaction. my first reaction was, of course:
WARREN: Treasury or state?
CLINTON: Treasury.
WARREN: Let's go.

posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:13 AM on October 12, 2016 [54 favorites]


of course I'll be at the 3rd debate, what are you talking about he never said he wouldn't debate he's the best debater ever and on and on.

You know what, I really liked those primary debates, lots of action, the most action. What I'm thinking is, maybe we invite Gary Johnson, maybe Jill Stein, maybe we even invite the whole McMuFinn ticket, just have a mass debate, just mass debate in Las Vegas on Wednesday night, mass debate all over the airwaves, every channel showing me mass debating. We are gonna make America mass debate again.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:13 AM on October 12, 2016 [10 favorites]


For those in the know, would it be the new house or the old house?

Old house. One vote per state delegation. New house starts January 3rd, electors meet December 15th. Constitution says house has to choose a president straight away.
posted by Talez at 11:14 AM on October 12, 2016


So, yesterday I replied to a journalist's remark on Twitter that he's hearing a lot of women talk about how they were upset by Trump's leerig but that men didn't notice. I basically said that I had a high heart rate during the debate, and in the follow-up posted that I watched some footage again during a late-night show and had the same reaction. "Hello, PTSD," I said.

I woke up this morning and my timeline was A SHIT SHOW. People responding calling Clinton a "dyke" and posting videos of people literally slaughtering other people, people calling me "cupcake" and telling me I was full of shit, people telling me I should see what really being scared feels like, people telling me I should try serving in the military, people calling me a bitch and telling me I need my pussy grabbed. People whose display names are "Deplorable ____" and who have usernames that use fascist and Nazi-related words and whose timelines are filled with their seeking out and harassing people.

I duly reported and blocked and Twitter removed a few, but not all, of the comments, but Jesus Christ. This is an @ message beneath someone else's tweet, not an affront to anyone's existence. I didn't express a single political opinion, and didn't even mention the fact that I grew up in an abusive household where that kind of behavior was common and yes, HAVE FUCKING PTSD because this is the society I grew up in as a woman.

Anyway. I just needed to get that off my chest. I find this entire thing so scary—that simply by saying "I'm scared," people like me are subject to attacks and threats. It's like the piranhas smell blood or something. This is where we are at. This is "political discourse" in 2016.
posted by mynameisluka at 11:16 AM on October 12, 2016 [197 favorites]


Old house. One vote per state delegation. New house starts January 3rd, electors meet December 15th. Constitution says House has to choose a president straight away.

No. The 20th Amendment specifically staggered the beginning of the new Congress (Jan 3) and the swearing in of the new President (January 20) so that the incoming House could vote in such a situation.
posted by dhens at 11:17 AM on October 12, 2016 [4 favorites]


Rudy Giuliani: "Hillary, we don't want your socialized medicine. Take it and stuff it up your... I didn't say it!"

Apparently we're twelve now. "Take it and stuff it up your pussy... cat has a wonderful, fluffy, shiny coat!"
posted by Talez at 11:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Psst... if you think McMullin Or Clinton will win Utah, you can put money on it here and here. As of this writing, if you bet on both and either of them wins you will still make a profit.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:20 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


That Podesta risotto secret isn't a secret.
It is literally how you make risotto.
That's like saying the secret to apple pie is remembering to put fruit in it.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 11:22 AM on October 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Sorry you had to go through that mynameisluka. Thats straight up bullshit.

I'm never gonna join the TweetFace for that and 1,000 other reasons. My suggestion is always (and particularly for every journalist ever) drop it like it's a hot mess.
posted by petebest at 11:22 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rudy Giuliani: "Hillary, we don't want your socialized medicine. Take it and stuff it up your... I didn't say it!"

Giuliani is a festering sack of... Shhhhhaving cream, be nice and clean,
shave every day and you'll always look keen.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:22 AM on October 12, 2016 [34 favorites]


Rudy Giuliani told Donald Trump supporters at a rally on Wednesday that he “doesn’t remember” seeing Hillary Clinton after the attacks on the Twin Towers — despite being photographed right next to her at Ground Zero.:

Senility is an awful thing.
posted by entropicamericana at 11:22 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


He might be going to the third debate but he will hack his own hole into the wall to enter.


Like the Kool-Aid Man?
posted by tilde at 11:25 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


That's like saying the secret to apple pie is remembering to put fruit in it.

or ritz crackers
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


A political historian explains why Trump’s tape could destroy the GOP
Coming out of World War II, President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s Republican Party backed government policies that promoted equality of opportunity—projects such as education, infrastructure, government regulation, and social welfare. These policies were both effective and enormously popular. But wealthy men loathed government regulation and the taxes that an active government required. Calling themselves conservatives, they started a movement to undermine the idea that promoting equality of opportunity was the proper role for the American government.

They had a problem: Most Americans liked the government programs. So to push their agenda, movement conservatives rejected fact-based evidence and instead advanced a very simple narrative: hard-working white American men were under siege by minorities, women, organized workers, and "special interests" who wanted government handouts. Government policies that promoted equal opportunity were the very opposite of fair. They redistributed wealth from hard-working white men to lazy minorities
How Republicans went from the party of Lincoln to the party of Trump, in 13 maps [video]
The Republican Party has nominated Donald J. Trump for president of the United States. This is a remarkable turn of events, and it only gets more remarkable when you think back to how the party began its existence: fighting against the expansion of slavery.

But over the past century and a half, the party of Abraham Lincoln has changed dramatically. It went from a party that was racially progressive for its times, to one that gets little support from nonwhite voters. It went from a Northern-only party, to one that dominates the South. Here's how it happened.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [27 favorites]


Thanks, petebest. Sadly, I'm pretty much expected to engage with people on Twitter for work, and to be fair I've found plenty of friends and great resources there. It's just shocking how any tool can be adapted for purposes of harassment.
posted by mynameisluka at 11:27 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


Rudy Giuliani told Donald Trump supporters at a rally on Wednesday that he “doesn’t remember” seeing Hillary Clinton after the attacks on the Twin Towers — despite being photographed right next to her at Ground Zero.

Senility is an awful thing.


Senility has nothing to do with it. Giuliani has always been a lying asshole.
posted by aught at 11:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [21 favorites]


Giuliani is a festering sack of... Shhhhhaving cream, be nice and clean,

Rudy Giuliani can go fuuuuuu...ck himself.

Did I do that right?

Yeah, I did that right.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [120 favorites]


I really have no idea what the GOP is going to do. They have maybe one more election cycle to even try running on white resentment before the demographics just become impossible for them. It's more of an uphill climb every year. Long term, they can't win national elections without appealing to minorities. That was the major take-away of their post mortem analysis after 2012, and yet they voted for Trump. The problem is that the most rabid part of their base are the white folks who are angry at the way the country is changing, and they are going to keep showing up to primaries to be sure that this country is a white supremacist Herrenvolk democracy to the fullest extent possible, for as long as possible.

Honestly, if I were the RNC, I'd consider a truly radical measure and get rid of primaries. They've fed their base so many lies for so long that they can't trust them to choose a decent nominee. There's no legal requirement to go through that process. I'd make everyone who wanted to be the GOP candidate submit their application to the national party, be vetted by a committee that does extensive background checks including medical records and tax returns, and then--if approved as a potential candidate by the committee--sent on for a vote by the current pool of GOP senators, representatives, and state governors. Announce the nominee with a big press conference/mini-convention, and start preparing that person for the nationwide race against the Democratic nominee. Sure there are some downsides--the primary process itself is a sort of test that a person can handle running a campaign and draw nationwide support, but the big upsides are: 1) no more dangerously unqualified candidates, 2) by default, the candidate will be someone most of the party leaders respect and can vigorously endorse, and 3) you can spend all your money and effort on the national race.

Sure, people would complain about it and you might take a hit from people who say it's not a democratic process, but it's not like their party is super happy to have Trump as the candidate, anyway. I'd seize the opportunity to do a big reform.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:28 AM on October 12, 2016 [14 favorites]


You can change your web notifications in Twitter so you only get the notifications you want. Though I know that won't work if your job is in the media and you want to interact with people.
posted by asteria at 11:29 AM on October 12, 2016




Rudy Giuliani told Donald Trump supporters at a rally on Wednesday that he “doesn’t remember” seeing Hillary Clinton after the attacks on the Twin Towers — despite being photographed right next to her at Ground Zero.:

So his actual quote is:
I remember September 11, 2001. Yes, you helped to get benefits for the people who were injured that day. But I heard her say she was there that day. I was there that day. I don’t remember seeing Hillary Clinton there. That was like when she said she had to run through gunfire. That turned out to be — what do we call it? A lie!

I hate Giuliani and fully support HRC, but his statement is technically accurate. She was in Washington on 9/11 and was allowed to fly down on 9/12. He even acknowledges that she helped get benefits for people afterward, though in the most dismissive way possible.

I don't know why I'm bothering to be pedantic about this. I guess I just hate it when the GOP wildly distorts a Democratic talking point, so I feel I have to be fair when something they say gets distorted too.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 11:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


I wonder how much various places are also experiencing a time warp, either deliberately or because of isolation. I think of how people experience those time warps as they get older and still remember their best time as a particular decade which is forever preserved for them. I wonder how much people from those various pockets see each other as essentially time-travelling space aliens. How many people are trying to be simultaneously conservative and progressive, in turns, but are working with a different understanding of What Is Now than everyone else. And I really, really wonder how that impacts everyone's voting, and their understanding about where other people are and what information they're voting with.

Corb, this is really profoundly true.
posted by Dashy at 11:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [6 favorites]


Like the Kool-Aid Man?

Like the Underminer (thanks to the Pixar geniuses, we have known it all for years).
posted by Namlit at 11:30 AM on October 12, 2016 [2 favorites]


I hate Giuliani and fully support HRC, but his statement is technically accurate.

No it isn't. I've never heard her say "I was in New York on 9/11."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:33 AM on October 12, 2016 [28 favorites]


3) Does this mean with get 90 minutes of Prime Time Q&A with Clinton/Kaine?

If he does pull out, I really hope this happens. Clinton already agreed, she should still get the air time.

She is going to kick so much ass as Secretary of the Treasury.
Senate. Majority. Leader.
tbf this was my second reaction. my first reaction was, of course:
WARREN: Treasury or state?
CLINTON: Treasury.
WARREN: Let's go.

NO. Nonononononononononononono. No sitting Democratic Senators should be appointed to a Clinton administration, period. Full Stop. We need every last one right where they are, most especially Elizabeth Warren. The Senate NEEDS strong progressive leadership, and for the first time maybe ever, it has some. Why the eff would Clinton take that away, and why would we want her to? Warren can do the most good right where she is. Give her a Chairmanship, Finance or Oversight, anything. But she needs to stay put. Plenty of people can run Treasury, I'm sure Warren has a list of suggestions. But no one can replace Warren on the Senate floor or in committee, as the Wells Fargo hearings should show us.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [61 favorites]




As all evidence points to the huge victory of Hillary, and as GOP leaders why Trump attacks the GOP as often as he does his opponent's party, and thus these actions seem unnatural, there may well be a very simple explanation for what is taking place. The Breitbart guy running Trump is out to destroy the GOP as it has existed over the years, gather up the many Trump loyalists and bring about a new white nationalist party to replace what will at this point seem a rather benign if ineffectual party.
posted by Postroad at 11:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]


so it was a really racially diverse rah-rah America that did not exist in the broader actual 1950s.

Complete with the sorta-socialist PX. I tease, because it's a great observation, but there's nowhere closer to central planning in the US than military bases. (I've been around a few in the SE.) Perhaps the nearest comparison is big retirement communities like The Villages -- a place that bans kids for anything other than short visits -- with their own unaccountable regulations and overseers.

Around them? Payday loan places, pawn shops, [dive and/or strip] bars and liquor stores, all the stuff that's been associated with armies since the vicus of the Roman encampment, and probably further back.

Anyway, when you have communities (both rural and urban) that are net exporters of young people, of people whose skills don't fit the prevailing industries and jobs, of gay people, of people who see the military as a way forward, you get social sorting the way that algorithmic simulations of housing eventually lead to self-segregation. It's a kind of path dependency.

That can be reversed in some cases -- I've seen it happen close up -- but the process of keeping people around or bringing new people in brings with it issues of gentrification. There's nobody more irate about the social changes that accompany local prosperity than people who were born here and lived through the slow decline.
posted by holgate at 11:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]


I really have no idea what the GOP is going to do

I'll tell you what they're going to do....
They're going to leave 2018 with a Senate majority in almost all likelihood. So between HRC's inauguration and then, best restock the Supreme Court if she can.
In 2020 they're going to run a candidate who didn't support Trump and doesn't have embarrassing history that even light opposition research should have found. He (guaranteed to be a 'he') will seem much fresher than a HRC who, in addition to being in her 70's, will have had 4 years of a presidency and 2 years of a highly opposition senate (if not House also) to deal with. Given the landscape today I'd wager HRC will be a one-term president. And in January 2021, more likely than not you're going to have a Republican president and both chambers of Congress.

That's what the GOP is going to do - wait 4 years, let the stain of Trump wear off, and regroup.
posted by splen at 11:34 AM on October 12, 2016 [9 favorites]




First a Departy and then another tea party
posted by Namlit at 11:36 AM on October 12, 2016


> Can we get off the Party of Lincoln thing? GOP is not the same party as Lincoln's party. Why do people insist on this?

Because if it isn't the same party as it was in Lincoln's day, it doesn't have to stay the same party as it is now. Things change. I would have thought that was pretty obvious. Just a half century ago, when I considered myself a Republican (though I was way too young to vote), this was the rising star of the GOP. Does Ed Brooke look like a Neanderthal racist fuck?

> Maybe your description is targeted toward what you think the party ought to be, but it does not line up with how actual Republicans have governed over the last 40-plus years.

Maybe? That's explicitly what she was talking about, in response to a question that asked literally exactly that. This is what I object to: an attitude of "I'm going to twist everything you say around so it makes you look as bad as possible." I see it too often at MeFi as well as in the world at large, and I wish we could cut it out.
posted by languagehat at 11:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [11 favorites]


Outside prediction for 2020:

-McMullin manages to win Utah this time and thereby gains national name recognition and a certain degree of infamy among Republicans.
-McMullin runs for the Republican nomination in 2019.
-Possibly the primary voters will be more disgusted with Trumpism than not, and find his genuine outsider status plus religious conservatism plus pretty chill vibes appealing, and select him to run; or possibly (more likely) he loses, but will have managed to convey his message of let's-change-the-Republican-party-and-stop-being-total-dicks to a broader national audience.
-If he loses, he launches another Independent bid, and this time secures a bigger chunk of the popular vote (while still likely only winning Utah, and possibly Idaho as well (26% Mormon)).
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:36 AM on October 12, 2016




Mistakenly dipped my toe into r/the_donald:

theverybestideas 55 points 4 hours ago
Trump misspells Wikileaks on purpose because pointing it out will force the MSM to admit Wikileaks exists.

Are these people for real? Or is it a bunch of teens cosplaying idiots for the lulz? I don't get it.
posted by bluecore at 11:38 AM on October 12, 2016 [10