A Mormon tycoon wants to build Joseph Smith's mega-utopia in Vermont.
October 21, 2016 7:56 AM Subscribe
David Hall is snapping up farmland to bring his vision of a sustainable high-density community to life. The neighbors are horrified. (SLBloomberg)
I live in this area, and believe me the neighbors are more than horrified; they are organized and committed to keeping this from happening.
posted by terrapin at 8:06 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by terrapin at 8:06 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Hipsters and NIMBY lawyers versus Bioshock's Rapture: the Mormon Edition?
(thinks about Vermont) Yeah, sounds about right.
posted by selfnoise at 8:06 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
(thinks about Vermont) Yeah, sounds about right.
posted by selfnoise at 8:06 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
Sometimes I reflect that at least I'll probably die before the world becomes intolerable. As climate change gets worse and things in general get worse, probably protection under some kind of authoritarian religious-capitalist regime will be one of the better ways to live.
I just feel really tired of things a lot of the time. The world is getting so much meaner and more authoritarian and yet everyone is signing up for it.
posted by Frowner at 8:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
I just feel really tired of things a lot of the time. The world is getting so much meaner and more authoritarian and yet everyone is signing up for it.
posted by Frowner at 8:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
As TFA says, he is far from the only person in history who has a utopian dream that will not end well. They should really do some good brain studies and find the sections that makes people so delusional (Kirk Cameron, etc.).
posted by Melismata at 8:12 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 8:12 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Within the community, each person will be allotted just 200 square feet of living space
Welcome to Utopia. Here's your broom closet. Rent is $2,000 a month, and due on the first.
posted by dortmunder at 8:24 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
Welcome to Utopia. Here's your broom closet. Rent is $2,000 a month, and due on the first.
posted by dortmunder at 8:24 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
Can I haz building permit?
Nope.
But...
No fucking way.
But I have shittons of money which gives me the right to...
Listen, I understand, assholes gotta asshole, but srsly, fuck the fuck off.
posted by sexyrobot at 8:26 AM on October 21, 2016 [18 favorites]
Nope.
But...
No fucking way.
But I have shittons of money which gives me the right to...
Listen, I understand, assholes gotta asshole, but srsly, fuck the fuck off.
posted by sexyrobot at 8:26 AM on October 21, 2016 [18 favorites]
Building a sustainable community and ecosystem by bulldozing and replacing a sustainable community and ecosystem sounds inefficient. This would sound possibly ok if he'd get over the pointless part about where Joseph Smith was born and find some failed/abandoned city or town which already replaced a bunch of green land to raze.
posted by mattamatic at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by mattamatic at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2016 [22 favorites]
Leave it to a librarian to discover that all of this was afoot.
posted by blucevalo at 8:31 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 8:31 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
One of Hall’s mistakes, she suspects, may be that he’s an engineer who tries to solve everything as if it were a math or physics problem without factoring in human emotion.
He's suffering from Engineer's Disease. That suddenly snaps a great deal of this into focus. And tying the place to Joseph Smith adds to the creepy cult factor. I think he should go into an area with a mile of previously condemned land. Find a former industrial zone that's been cleaned up, or even better, spend the money to clean it up and then build this. Something in the Rust Belt, or maybe the Coal Belt.
As an aside, are there any planned utopian communities that are actually still functioning and thriving these days? Oneida became a company, the Shakers have something in the single digits number of members, the kabutz aren't doing that well and I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
posted by Hactar at 8:32 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
He's suffering from Engineer's Disease. That suddenly snaps a great deal of this into focus. And tying the place to Joseph Smith adds to the creepy cult factor. I think he should go into an area with a mile of previously condemned land. Find a former industrial zone that's been cleaned up, or even better, spend the money to clean it up and then build this. Something in the Rust Belt, or maybe the Coal Belt.
As an aside, are there any planned utopian communities that are actually still functioning and thriving these days? Oneida became a company, the Shakers have something in the single digits number of members, the kabutz aren't doing that well and I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
posted by Hactar at 8:32 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
One of the reasons Hall has very little chance of getting this project done is Vermont's Act 250. The fact that he has been buying land spread across multiple towns means he will also need to get permission from multiple planning commissions.
posted by terrapin at 8:36 AM on October 21, 2016
posted by terrapin at 8:36 AM on October 21, 2016
sexyrobot: There are no building permits here. The only thing that needs to be permitted is septic.
posted by terrapin at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by terrapin at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Looking at the new vistas website if they were truly virtuous and annointed, they would have honest, simple, god fearing html webpages and not ask the devil to load their content via javascript, and hell no would they host their introduction as a powerpoint document on a sharepoint server.
If I weren't a disbeliever already, that would have been enough to turn me.
posted by signal at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [23 favorites]
If I weren't a disbeliever already, that would have been enough to turn me.
posted by signal at 8:38 AM on October 21, 2016 [23 favorites]
BUILD A WALL AND MAKE JOSEPH SMITH PAY FOR IT
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:39 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 8:39 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Something that has bothered me about the discussion about this locally is people who bring up the fact the guy is Mormon and use it to paint it as a Mormon project. It is not. The LDS are distancing themselves from Hall and this project, and I know many Mormons with Stop New Vistas signs in their yards.
I hope MetaFilter can get past Hall's religion when discussing this.
posted by terrapin at 8:42 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
I hope MetaFilter can get past Hall's religion when discussing this.
posted by terrapin at 8:42 AM on October 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile, how's Arcosanti working out these days ...
posted by octobersurprise at 8:50 AM on October 21, 2016
posted by octobersurprise at 8:50 AM on October 21, 2016
Truly PowerPoint is the greatest of all heresies.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
terrapin, I am not blaming the LDS for this at all. If anything, I am blaming the current engineering culture that says that once you make a great deal of money on any technological thing, your ideas are pure gold. I'm not a fan of some of the positions of the Church (I'm a liberal, it's going to happen), but my dislike of this guy has everything with him causing harm with his crazy quasi-utopian community and not with his being a Mormon.
posted by Hactar at 9:02 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 9:02 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
One Vista Biz, called Medic, is developing a water-efficient toilet that also measures blood pressure, weight, and overall health by using sensors and sampling what passes through it. Hall hopes insurance companies will eventually cover the costs of installing such toilets at companies to track worker health. “Instead of going to the doctor for a checkup, the doctor will call you when something is wrong,” he says.
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 9:03 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 9:03 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am torn between my distaste for cultish utopias doomed to failure, and my distaste for low-density rural NIMBY bullshit.
posted by 1adam12 at 9:06 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 9:06 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
Vermont resident, here to say that they definitely picked the shadiest PR firm in the state.
posted by hoanthropos at 9:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hoanthropos at 9:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I hope MetaFilter can get past Hall's religion when discussing this.
He is using a plan that he found while researching the history of the LDS Church. The plan was written by the founder of that church, whom Hall calls "a sage or a seer". He cites that document -- written in the 19th Century -- as the reason that his utopian community will work while others have failed.
MetaFilter is not the party that needs to get past the religious aspects of this crusade.
posted by Etrigan at 9:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [25 favorites]
He is using a plan that he found while researching the history of the LDS Church. The plan was written by the founder of that church, whom Hall calls "a sage or a seer". He cites that document -- written in the 19th Century -- as the reason that his utopian community will work while others have failed.
MetaFilter is not the party that needs to get past the religious aspects of this crusade.
posted by Etrigan at 9:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [25 favorites]
He is thinking bigly I will give him credit for that. I cannot get the newvistas.org website to load. Has the internet over stressed his ISP?
posted by bukvich at 9:09 AM on October 21, 2016
posted by bukvich at 9:09 AM on October 21, 2016
MetaFilter is not the party that needs to get past the religious aspects of this crusade.
My point is that Hall is Mormon. He is not doing this on behalf of or with the church. This is not a Mormon project.
posted by terrapin at 9:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
My point is that Hall is Mormon. He is not doing this on behalf of or with the church. This is not a Mormon project.
posted by terrapin at 9:16 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Something that has bothered me about the discussion about this locally is people who bring up the fact the guy is Mormon and use it to paint it as a Mormon project. It is not. The LDS are distancing themselves from Hall and this project, and I know many Mormons with Stop New Vistas signs in their yards.
The plots are based on the writings of Joseph Smith and Hall wants to have one of the communities close to where Joseph Smith was born. Regardless of how the larger Church of Latter-Day Saints feels about it, this is a pretty Mormon project.
To claim that this isn't a Mormon project is like claiming that the guy who went on a beer fast for Lent one year wasn't doing a Christian project, because he wasn't doing it "on behalf or with" any particular church.
I hope MetaFilter can get past Hall's religion when discussing this.
Given the history of the Mormon church, and Hall's inspirations for doing this, I don't think you can separate the two.
That being said... I know that I wouldn't be happy living in a place like this, but the principles behind it (high-density, sustainable living) aren't necessary bad in and of themselves. But also, because humans are, well, humans, and because this is not only religiously motivated, but motivated by a particularly scary/insular religion, I don't see this particular community going any better than, say, Rajnesshpuram, and it's not just knee-jerk NIMBYism to not want that kind of thing going on in your backyard.
And I agree with others in this thread that I'd have a lot more respect for the implementation of this project if Hall were trying to, say, rebuild abandoned parts of Detroit, as opposed to razing existing communities/wilderness in places that are of spiritual interest to him.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]
The plots are based on the writings of Joseph Smith and Hall wants to have one of the communities close to where Joseph Smith was born. Regardless of how the larger Church of Latter-Day Saints feels about it, this is a pretty Mormon project.
To claim that this isn't a Mormon project is like claiming that the guy who went on a beer fast for Lent one year wasn't doing a Christian project, because he wasn't doing it "on behalf or with" any particular church.
I hope MetaFilter can get past Hall's religion when discussing this.
Given the history of the Mormon church, and Hall's inspirations for doing this, I don't think you can separate the two.
That being said... I know that I wouldn't be happy living in a place like this, but the principles behind it (high-density, sustainable living) aren't necessary bad in and of themselves. But also, because humans are, well, humans, and because this is not only religiously motivated, but motivated by a particularly scary/insular religion, I don't see this particular community going any better than, say, Rajnesshpuram, and it's not just knee-jerk NIMBYism to not want that kind of thing going on in your backyard.
And I agree with others in this thread that I'd have a lot more respect for the implementation of this project if Hall were trying to, say, rebuild abandoned parts of Detroit, as opposed to razing existing communities/wilderness in places that are of spiritual interest to him.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:23 AM on October 21, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think the chances of Hall actually building his mega-utopia are slim to none. I'd be more worried about winding up with hundreds of razed acres and and varying degrees of completed construction.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:26 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 9:26 AM on October 21, 2016 [11 favorites]
Invoking the name of Joseph Smith would not seem to be consistent with a path of harmony with civil authority.
posted by jamjam at 9:35 AM on October 21, 2016
posted by jamjam at 9:35 AM on October 21, 2016
The Mormonism isn't insignificant. It could be any religion or similar group, but when you get a large enough number of people with a shared perspective or belief system, things start to get pretty bad for people who don't share it. I worked for an already bad company once that got downright toxic for many of us when they hired a Mormon VP, who started bringing in other Mormons. They were cliquish, of course, but more importantly, they were so sexist and otherwise socially conservative that it was practically impossible to work with them. I'm sure the church didn't endorse that particular takeover either, but the Mormonism was a big part of the problem.
Look at what Evangelical Christians did to Colorado Springs. Twenty some years ago about, there was a coordinated movement to pretty much take over the city, which made it pretty unwelcoming for a lot of people who'd been there all their lives. So it doesn't have to be Mormons. It just is sometimes.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
Look at what Evangelical Christians did to Colorado Springs. Twenty some years ago about, there was a coordinated movement to pretty much take over the city, which made it pretty unwelcoming for a lot of people who'd been there all their lives. So it doesn't have to be Mormons. It just is sometimes.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [15 favorites]
"Families and individuals who wish to join must invest their net worth and be employed either outside the communities or by a NewVistas company, or Vista Biz. [...] They also must agree to put nearly all their profits back into the community in exchange for what Hall calls “dividends”—payouts from overall wealth earned by the plat businesses."
Is that even legal?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 9:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is that even legal?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 9:36 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
the economy of vermont is based on second homes, ski vacations, homesteading former investment bankers/lawyers and heroin. i love everything about this.
tiny houses on 47 acres are totally unsustainable. it's an internal version of retiring early and moving to central america where you can live like a king. having a stable high-paying professional job (ie. computer engineer at a college) in Vermont puts you into a totally different universe than the real local rural economy (which is heroin and taking care of old people and taking care of heroin addicts) and allows you to live the homesteading dream, powered by all of the insane resources flowing through Dartmouth College. part of the dream of being an investment banker or white shoe lawyer is retiring at 40, trying to get pregnant as quickly as possible and decamping to the woods of rural new england to live out your fantasies of living in the woods after wasting the first 40 years of your life getting rich.
it's a shame Mr. Hall has to tie all of this into some Mormon-theme techno-dystopian fantasy. but, this kind of density and leveraging of technology is the only thing that could be truly "sustainable" in places like vermont, outside of a return to stone-age living. i wouldn't privilege the fantasy of people living on "homesteads" over Hall's dream. Hall at least has some good ideas, the Antal's dream is basically just a polite, friendly, homespun "fuck you, i got mine" ie. taking advantage of opportunities most people in Vt don't have and couldn't have.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:39 AM on October 21, 2016 [18 favorites]
tiny houses on 47 acres are totally unsustainable. it's an internal version of retiring early and moving to central america where you can live like a king. having a stable high-paying professional job (ie. computer engineer at a college) in Vermont puts you into a totally different universe than the real local rural economy (which is heroin and taking care of old people and taking care of heroin addicts) and allows you to live the homesteading dream, powered by all of the insane resources flowing through Dartmouth College. part of the dream of being an investment banker or white shoe lawyer is retiring at 40, trying to get pregnant as quickly as possible and decamping to the woods of rural new england to live out your fantasies of living in the woods after wasting the first 40 years of your life getting rich.
it's a shame Mr. Hall has to tie all of this into some Mormon-theme techno-dystopian fantasy. but, this kind of density and leveraging of technology is the only thing that could be truly "sustainable" in places like vermont, outside of a return to stone-age living. i wouldn't privilege the fantasy of people living on "homesteads" over Hall's dream. Hall at least has some good ideas, the Antal's dream is basically just a polite, friendly, homespun "fuck you, i got mine" ie. taking advantage of opportunities most people in Vt don't have and couldn't have.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:39 AM on October 21, 2016 [18 favorites]
the real local rural economy (which is heroin and taking care of old people and taking care of heroin addicts)
Combine this with a super-mega Mormon arcology and you suddenly got yourself a real purty J.G. Ballard story.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:47 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Combine this with a super-mega Mormon arcology and you suddenly got yourself a real purty J.G. Ballard story.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:47 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
People in this thread keep using the term NIMBY, but I don't think that applies here. Doesn't "Not In My Back Yard" refer to people who support a development but don't want it near them? Like people who support wind power but don't want wind turbines near their land.
I doubt the local Vermont residents support this religious utopia scheme but just don't want it near their property.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:50 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
I doubt the local Vermont residents support this religious utopia scheme but just don't want it near their property.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:50 AM on October 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Combine this with a super-mega Mormon arcology and you suddenly got yourself a real purty J.G. Ballard story.
if only he was building a real arcology, i'd sell my old CDs and some computer equipment and pledge my assets to thecult community ziggurat. instead he's building something which looks like a low-density urban row-house neighborhood. it would be funny to make a spreadsheet comparing Hall's and Antal's feelings, suspicions, and beliefs about living near brown people. the best arcology is, of course, a city. but both Hall and Antal know what "urban" really means...
posted by ennui.bz at 9:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
if only he was building a real arcology, i'd sell my old CDs and some computer equipment and pledge my assets to the
posted by ennui.bz at 9:53 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Doesn't "Not In My Back Yard" refer to people who support a development but don't want it near them? Like people who support wind power but don't want wind turbines near their land.
Nah, that's just a subset of the general "I don't want it near me" mindset.
posted by me3dia at 9:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nah, that's just a subset of the general "I don't want it near me" mindset.
posted by me3dia at 9:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is that even legal?
I can't imagine why it wouldn't be, unless they tried to bar people from leaving or something.
posted by jpe at 9:56 AM on October 21, 2016
I can't imagine why it wouldn't be, unless they tried to bar people from leaving or something.
posted by jpe at 9:56 AM on October 21, 2016
In my experience (with wind power and even dumber things like pernicious utility meters) the people who oppose things based on NIMBY come up with a justification as to why said thing is Bad, Period, and then very shortly thereafter convince themselves to believe it sincerely.
posted by selfnoise at 9:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 9:57 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like people who support wind power but don't want wind turbines near their land.
you have no idea how fucking over-the-top ironic it is to watch people who have just dropped 40K on their own personal photovoltaic electric system, get up in arms about wind farms ruining the view in rural new england.
hyperbole aside, on a basic level, the difference between Hall's dream and the Antal's dream is that (built on his Mormon communalism) Hall is trying to build something for a community of people, it includes people outside of himself. Whereas the Antal's dream is just about how they want to live and actually has very little room for other people. It fits into a culture of "liberal" people who believe "sustainability" is about buying the right products: car, house, yoghurt, CSAs etc. and has precious little to offer people who can't buy these things.
posted by ennui.bz at 10:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
you have no idea how fucking over-the-top ironic it is to watch people who have just dropped 40K on their own personal photovoltaic electric system, get up in arms about wind farms ruining the view in rural new england.
hyperbole aside, on a basic level, the difference between Hall's dream and the Antal's dream is that (built on his Mormon communalism) Hall is trying to build something for a community of people, it includes people outside of himself. Whereas the Antal's dream is just about how they want to live and actually has very little room for other people. It fits into a culture of "liberal" people who believe "sustainability" is about buying the right products: car, house, yoghurt, CSAs etc. and has precious little to offer people who can't buy these things.
posted by ennui.bz at 10:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Within the community, each person will be allotted just 200 square feet of living space
The density of Manhattan plus the job opportunities of Vermont!
posted by zippy at 10:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [26 favorites]
The density of Manhattan plus the job opportunities of Vermont!
posted by zippy at 10:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [26 favorites]
I can't imagine why it wouldn't be, unless they tried to bar people from leaving or something.
I could see it running afoul of the Securities Act and the SEC. We only have a vague description of their structure, but given the description quoted by Hairy Lobster the contemplated arrangement could be classified as an investment contract and thus subject to SEC registration and regulation.
The Supreme Court case that yielded one of the general tests for whether a scheme is an "investment contract" under the Securities Act, SEC v. W. J. Howey Co., was also about a contract for returns on purchased plots in a development. Under the Howey Test, a transaction is an investment contract if:
1. It is an investment of money
2. There is an expectation of profits from the investment
3. The investment of money is in a common enterprise
4. Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party
Again, we have only the vaguest of descriptions of Hall's plan, but it sounds like he's requiring people in his community to agree to invest money into the community in expectation of a profit to be provided by the New Vista management.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I could see it running afoul of the Securities Act and the SEC. We only have a vague description of their structure, but given the description quoted by Hairy Lobster the contemplated arrangement could be classified as an investment contract and thus subject to SEC registration and regulation.
The Supreme Court case that yielded one of the general tests for whether a scheme is an "investment contract" under the Securities Act, SEC v. W. J. Howey Co., was also about a contract for returns on purchased plots in a development. Under the Howey Test, a transaction is an investment contract if:
1. It is an investment of money
2. There is an expectation of profits from the investment
3. The investment of money is in a common enterprise
4. Any profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party
Again, we have only the vaguest of descriptions of Hall's plan, but it sounds like he's requiring people in his community to agree to invest money into the community in expectation of a profit to be provided by the New Vista management.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:09 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nah, that's just a subset of the general "I don't want it near me" mindset.
Without the element of hypocrisy, why is that a negative mindset, then? There are lots of things I reasonably would not want developed near me.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:15 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Without the element of hypocrisy, why is that a negative mindset, then? There are lots of things I reasonably would not want developed near me.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:15 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hall is trying to build something for a community of people, it includes people outside of himself. Whereas the Antal's dream is just about how they want to live and actually has very little room for other people.
Hall's idea of a "community" includes people who are just like him, not just socio-economically, but also in rigidly socially-conservative ways. I mean:
In a country that is big enough for every person to have 7.6 acres of land*, there's room for a lot more people to live in Antal's type of community than in Halls. Yeah, maybe the Antals have more space than they need, but they don't have to be paragons of virtue to be right about the fact that Hall's plan is poorly thought out at best, and outright terrifying at worst.
*yeah, this doesn't take into account the fact that lots of this land couldn't sustain life, but the point remains that acreage in the wilderness is not a scarce resource.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:21 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hall's idea of a "community" includes people who are just like him, not just socio-economically, but also in rigidly socially-conservative ways. I mean:
“Each [multi-family] house has house captains, which are a team of one man and one woman,” reads Hall’s document. “These are a selected married couple, with each providing leadership for and dealing directly with issues related to their gender.”To the extent to which Antal's idea of community involves people who are like her, at least socio-economically, I can't see how Hall's solution is an improvement. What is Hall's utopia going to offer for people who don't have a "net worth" to invest? What about people who can't "be employed either outside the communities or by a NewVistas company?"
In a country that is big enough for every person to have 7.6 acres of land*, there's room for a lot more people to live in Antal's type of community than in Halls. Yeah, maybe the Antals have more space than they need, but they don't have to be paragons of virtue to be right about the fact that Hall's plan is poorly thought out at best, and outright terrifying at worst.
*yeah, this doesn't take into account the fact that lots of this land couldn't sustain life, but the point remains that acreage in the wilderness is not a scarce resource.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:21 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
As an aside, are there any planned utopian communities that are actually still functioning and thriving these days? Oneida became a company, the Shakers have something in the single digits number of members, the kabutz aren't doing that well and I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
Well pretty much every town in New England started out as one. And many of them are quite lovely.
posted by ocschwar at 10:31 AM on October 21, 2016
re: NIMBYism
Without the element of hypocrisy, why is that a negative mindset, then?
It's a negative mindset when it's kneejerk and not tempered by rational thought. For any given [thing] and any person who is a NIMBY about [thing] there are mindsets at work:
[thing] is terrible and shouldn't exist anywhere, let alone here.
[thing] would cause harm here, but would not cause harm over there, so put it there.
[thing] is necessary but would cause harm anywhere, but my being harmed feels worse to me than other people being harmed, so do it but don't put it here.
...etc.
Some of those mindsets are reasonable (especially when ideas about "harm" are fact-based), but most of the time when people are accused of being NIMBYs, it's because the accuser believes that they aren't being reasonable.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:31 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Without the element of hypocrisy, why is that a negative mindset, then?
It's a negative mindset when it's kneejerk and not tempered by rational thought. For any given [thing] and any person who is a NIMBY about [thing] there are mindsets at work:
[thing] is terrible and shouldn't exist anywhere, let alone here.
[thing] would cause harm here, but would not cause harm over there, so put it there.
[thing] is necessary but would cause harm anywhere, but my being harmed feels worse to me than other people being harmed, so do it but don't put it here.
...etc.
Some of those mindsets are reasonable (especially when ideas about "harm" are fact-based), but most of the time when people are accused of being NIMBYs, it's because the accuser believes that they aren't being reasonable.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:31 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's a link to a secular version of such a project, planned for Maine.
And I'm inclined to agree that it would be much better to do it in on a brownfield site in a Rust Belt city.
And here's one that exists and is up and running.
posted by ocschwar at 10:35 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
And I'm inclined to agree that it would be much better to do it in on a brownfield site in a Rust Belt city.
And here's one that exists and is up and running.
posted by ocschwar at 10:35 AM on October 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
I could see it running afoul of the Securities Act and the SEC.
Interesting point and comment. Securities law ain't my thing, for sure.
posted by jpe at 10:37 AM on October 21, 2016
Interesting point and comment. Securities law ain't my thing, for sure.
posted by jpe at 10:37 AM on October 21, 2016
As an aside, are there any planned utopian communities that are actually still functioning and thriving these days?
They are smaller scale, but intentional communities are a thing. Here's a list.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:44 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
They are smaller scale, but intentional communities are a thing. Here's a list.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:44 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't see how Hall's solution is an improvement.
my point is that Hall is at least thinking about other people. The Antal's vision of sustainability only really includes themselves and what they can purchase.
it's a really basic thing. any good idea you have: can it be extended to all people? Can everyone live on 47 acres and a tiny home in Vt. Can everyone own a PV electric system? Can everyone drive a $40K electric car charged up by a home PV system? I don't thinkJoseph Smith's Hall's vision is particularly workable but he's at least thinking about the problem. And, the only hope we have is if everyone can live in dense urban centers. The Antal's are totally focused on themselves, their own lifestyle. But, imagine they are doing something for the planet. And god forbid anyone intrude on their little house in the woods.
It kind of comes down to whether you think 'Little House on the Prairie' is dystopian science-fiction or not...
posted by ennui.bz at 10:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
my point is that Hall is at least thinking about other people. The Antal's vision of sustainability only really includes themselves and what they can purchase.
it's a really basic thing. any good idea you have: can it be extended to all people? Can everyone live on 47 acres and a tiny home in Vt. Can everyone own a PV electric system? Can everyone drive a $40K electric car charged up by a home PV system? I don't think
It kind of comes down to whether you think 'Little House on the Prairie' is dystopian science-fiction or not...
posted by ennui.bz at 10:46 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I hope MetaFilter can get past Hall's religion when discussing this.
MetaFilter can't even get past his profession, so good luck with religion.
posted by Chuckles at 10:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter can't even get past his profession, so good luck with religion.
posted by Chuckles at 10:54 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dedicating all your property to the community when joining is pretty much directly from Brigham Young's implementation of the United Order:
posted by AaronRaphael at 11:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Under Young's leadership, producers would generally deed their property to the Order, and all members of the Order would share the cooperative's net income, often divided into shares based on the amount of property originally contributed. Sometimes, the members of the Order would receive wages for their work on the communal property.As somebody who grew up mormon I can totally see the draw, especially if you read the Utah folklore around it when you were at an impressionable age and haven't been burned by actually trying to live in a commune.
posted by AaronRaphael at 11:01 AM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
my point is that Hall is at least thinking about other people.
Yeah, well, so was Jim Jones.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:07 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, well, so was Jim Jones.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:07 AM on October 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
one of the things i've really come to enjoy about going apostate from the Church is having the freedom to be delighted by stuff like this. Also I really really doubt Bro Hall's ideas are going to come to fruition - if Vermonters don't thwart them, then i expect there'll be a quiet word from a church authority and he'll back off. I doubt the LDS church is real excited about the idea of a celestial tenement a stone's throw from Joseph Smith's humble beginnings.
posted by floweringjudas at 12:05 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by floweringjudas at 12:05 PM on October 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
His infrastructure seems to be both very complicated and fairly brittle. EG: it doesn't seem like it would handle demographic shifts very easily (aging; a shift to larger or smaller families). And the ongoing maintenance costs to keep things like robotic realignment of furnishings going would put on a fairly high bar on the basic survivability of the community. If they can't collect enough revenue that stuff is going to stop working; people will leave which will exasperate the funding problem and then the community will be abandoned.
terrapin: "My point is that Hall is Mormon. He is not doing this on behalf of or with the church. This is not a Mormon project."
A small m mormon project rather than a big M Mormon project. There is no doubt that the project is heavily influenced by Hall's religion even if Mormon leadership officially disapproves.
posted by Mitheral at 12:17 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
terrapin: "My point is that Hall is Mormon. He is not doing this on behalf of or with the church. This is not a Mormon project."
A small m mormon project rather than a big M Mormon project. There is no doubt that the project is heavily influenced by Hall's religion even if Mormon leadership officially disapproves.
posted by Mitheral at 12:17 PM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
"My point is that Hall is Mormon. He is not doing this on behalf of or with the church. This is not a Mormon project."
“Each [multi-family] house has house captains, which are a team of one man and one woman,” reads Hall’s document. “These are a selected married couple, with each providing leadership for and dealing directly with issues related to their gender.”
How does he intend to break down their responsibilities? Who gets what? How Hall plans to spell out the Great Innate Gender Divide will say a great deal about how much this project has to do with his religion.
(srsly. It's not exactly relegated to the fine print.)
posted by tabubilgirl at 1:25 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
“Each [multi-family] house has house captains, which are a team of one man and one woman,” reads Hall’s document. “These are a selected married couple, with each providing leadership for and dealing directly with issues related to their gender.”
How does he intend to break down their responsibilities? Who gets what? How Hall plans to spell out the Great Innate Gender Divide will say a great deal about how much this project has to do with his religion.
(srsly. It's not exactly relegated to the fine print.)
posted by tabubilgirl at 1:25 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
...the real local rural economy (which is heroin and taking care of old people and taking care of heroin addicts) ...
You say this with great assurance, but no substantiation. Anecdotally, I have a lot of relatives in the area in question, and none of them are in any way involved with heroin or addicts. As for taking care of old people, that is part of the economy everywhere, and I don't know why you find it worth remarking on. People in rural VT definitely have to be resourceful in earning a living, and most of my relatives do a variety of things to get by. This has always been true there, even when dairy farming was dominant. I do not think heroin has replaced milk. If you can demonstrate that I'm wrong about that, I would be interested to see your evidence. Absent such evidence, your characterizing the rural VT economy as you have is about as credible as saying that rural KY is dependent on moonshine.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:37 PM on October 21, 2016
You say this with great assurance, but no substantiation. Anecdotally, I have a lot of relatives in the area in question, and none of them are in any way involved with heroin or addicts. As for taking care of old people, that is part of the economy everywhere, and I don't know why you find it worth remarking on. People in rural VT definitely have to be resourceful in earning a living, and most of my relatives do a variety of things to get by. This has always been true there, even when dairy farming was dominant. I do not think heroin has replaced milk. If you can demonstrate that I'm wrong about that, I would be interested to see your evidence. Absent such evidence, your characterizing the rural VT economy as you have is about as credible as saying that rural KY is dependent on moonshine.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:37 PM on October 21, 2016
The Springfield-to-Vermont route is well known to law enforcement for trafficking; I remember reading about how the cops in Springfield (MA) were stopping pretty much any car that had a Vermont license plate. Globe article. Not saying it's a dominating force in the state, but it definitely exists.
posted by Melismata at 1:44 PM on October 21, 2016
posted by Melismata at 1:44 PM on October 21, 2016
I don't doubt your experience TWF, but this discussion of "sites of historical importance to Latter-day Saints" from "The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, hosted by Brigham-Young University, starts the discussion of American sites with:
I mean, if there is something innately "un-Mormon" about this plan (beyond the fact that it doesn't have the LDS stamp of approval), I'd be curious to hear it. I'd also be curious about what you call a development based on this document if not Mormon. (Smithian?)
posted by sparklemotion at 1:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Visitors centers are located at several sites, and are free and open to the public. Each location includes displays and literature explaining the site and its significance in Church history. One such site is the Joseph Smith Memorial in Sharon, Windsor County, Vermont. Joseph Smith was born here on December 23, 1805. In 1905 the Church erected a 38.5-foot-high granite monument to commemorate the 38.5 years of his life. A full-time missionary couple live at the home.That being said -- I'm not sure why it matters that Hall's plan isn't LDS-sponsored. I mean, my understanding is that there are Mormons who aren't LDS members, so, it would seem that the "mormon-ness" of something is necessarily tied to how the Church feels about it.
I mean, if there is something innately "un-Mormon" about this plan (beyond the fact that it doesn't have the LDS stamp of approval), I'd be curious to hear it. I'd also be curious about what you call a development based on this document if not Mormon. (Smithian?)
posted by sparklemotion at 1:48 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Remember The Time Machine, and the Eloi? I have been in some semi abandoned utopian places that are similar to that.
The scheme of giving up your worldly holdings to be redistributed by teh mens, is just like the Food Stamp Fraud gimmick going on between Southern Utah, and the Federal Courthouse in Salt Lake City. Once you have started with Joseph Smith's urban plan, then the teachings come into play and living the principle. Yeah. Lock up your daughters.
One man's version of religious teachings, is not necessarily the established religion's current teachings. This is going to squirrel badly, and hopefully if they can drag this out, then it won't be a problem. I hate to see nice, wild land trashed in the way he plans. Having him talk about square footage allotment and forced investment, is kind of like a warning. I plan to rob you on a continuing basis, and take away your free agency.
There is a development semi-underway that is for Seniors in the Salt Lake Valley. My neighbor was discussing it today. You buy in, with a $300,000 payment, for that you get to live there, in a yet to be built unit. You then pay $2,600-$3,000 per month, and all your meals are made for you, I guess you dine communally, there is a pool, golf course, etc. You don't get your money back when you die, and it is not transferable. My neighbor asked me, "What the hell are they getting?" I said I thought they were getting a white experience, guaranteed.
posted by Oyéah at 6:56 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
The scheme of giving up your worldly holdings to be redistributed by teh mens, is just like the Food Stamp Fraud gimmick going on between Southern Utah, and the Federal Courthouse in Salt Lake City. Once you have started with Joseph Smith's urban plan, then the teachings come into play and living the principle. Yeah. Lock up your daughters.
One man's version of religious teachings, is not necessarily the established religion's current teachings. This is going to squirrel badly, and hopefully if they can drag this out, then it won't be a problem. I hate to see nice, wild land trashed in the way he plans. Having him talk about square footage allotment and forced investment, is kind of like a warning. I plan to rob you on a continuing basis, and take away your free agency.
There is a development semi-underway that is for Seniors in the Salt Lake Valley. My neighbor was discussing it today. You buy in, with a $300,000 payment, for that you get to live there, in a yet to be built unit. You then pay $2,600-$3,000 per month, and all your meals are made for you, I guess you dine communally, there is a pool, golf course, etc. You don't get your money back when you die, and it is not transferable. My neighbor asked me, "What the hell are they getting?" I said I thought they were getting a white experience, guaranteed.
posted by Oyéah at 6:56 PM on October 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, one more thing. You look at his age. Sometimes this kind of thing, and off kilter expenditure, is a family's first sign that a parent is developing dementia.
posted by Oyéah at 7:05 PM on October 21, 2016
posted by Oyéah at 7:05 PM on October 21, 2016
"No surprises" is the motto of the franchise ghetto…. The people of America, who live in the world's most surprising and terrible country, take comfort in that motto.posted by jenkinsEar at 7:54 PM on October 21, 2016
Follow the loglo outward, to where the growth is enfolded into the valleys and the canyons, and you find the land of the refugees. They have parallel-parked their bimbo boxes in identical computer-designed Burbclave street patterns and secreted themselves in symmetrical sheetrock shitholes with vinyl floors and ill-fitting woodwork and no sidewalks.
The only ones left in the city are street people…immigrants…young bohos; and the technomedia priesthood.
I fully understand why people in Vermont would be horrified by this project, and yet ... as an urban planner: this is a wet dream made real. Building an entire community from scratch is our secret Corbusian fantasy.
(If only some obscenely rich developer would believe in me)
As noted above, I'd rather see a brown-field project than a new urban area in a rural landscape. But in the end, I'm fascinated by utopias and - even if this isn't my utopia - I want to see how this plays out.
posted by kanewai at 1:35 AM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
(If only some obscenely rich developer would believe in me)
As noted above, I'd rather see a brown-field project than a new urban area in a rural landscape. But in the end, I'm fascinated by utopias and - even if this isn't my utopia - I want to see how this plays out.
posted by kanewai at 1:35 AM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Speaking as another urban planner, I do not wish to see this "play out" using actual human beings in the experiment.
Save this fantasy for Sim City.
posted by she's not there at 3:37 AM on October 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
Save this fantasy for Sim City.
posted by she's not there at 3:37 AM on October 22, 2016 [3 favorites]
OK I went back and checked his newvistasfoundation.org website with a healthy internet. The page is completely blank so it looks like they have a long ways to go.
posted by bukvich at 8:50 AM on October 23, 2016
posted by bukvich at 8:50 AM on October 23, 2016
I guess someone forgot to explain that Vermont is not a real place; it's a me-ta-phor.
posted by rokusan at 12:28 AM on October 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rokusan at 12:28 AM on October 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
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