"People like me just got screwed."
October 23, 2016 8:51 AM Subscribe
Short of troops to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan a decade ago, the California National Guard enticed thousands of soldiers with bonuses of $15,000 or more to reenlist and go to war. Now the Pentagon is demanding the money back.
(Re-enlistment bonuses eleven years ago.)
(Re-enlistment bonuses eleven years ago.)
I have mixed feelings about the repayment, some of the folks may have agreed to getting a bit extra with a wink and a nod, and a few captains have had some jail time, but that's where there should be a LOT more investigation and a lot more majors and generals should probably get put behind bars and contribute to the repayments.
posted by sammyo at 9:10 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 9:10 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
The post doesn't make it clear; the Pentagon is demanding the enlisted soldiers pay the bonuses back. Despite the fraud being committed by folks in charge of the California National Guard. It seems entirely shameful; there's no evidence the soldiers knew their payments were fraudulent, is there? There's none in the LA Times article.
posted by Nelson at 9:11 AM on October 23, 2016 [78 favorites]
We’d be more than happy to absolve these people of their debts. We just can’t do it. We’d be breaking the law.If only there were some legislative solution.
posted by Nelson at 9:11 AM on October 23, 2016 [78 favorites]
When this story hit my news feeds yesterday, I was simply flabbergasted. I've been, depending on how bad this situation becomes, either unfortunate or fortunate enough to never qualify for one of the bonuses at the times they were offered**. But I'm now scrutinizing my wife's re-enlistment contract to see if she might become the next victim (Army Reserve, not Guard, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done). All -- or at least most -- of the troops who took the bonuses did so in good faith. Yet now, once again, the government has needlessly and recklessly broken faith with those it charges to fight and die for its wars. It's like the military bureaucracy didn't learn a single thing from the fiasco of charging the families of dead troops for the damaged body armor they died in.
** As an Officer, there were less bonuses offered. When they were, they usually had time in grade stipulations, or that you had to be within one year of the end of your obligation (to make extending the obligation worthwhile). I missed eligibility by months on at least 2 bonuses I know of. My wife, being Enlisted, more readily qualified, with the only stipulation being she extended for six years.
posted by mystyk at 9:16 AM on October 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
** As an Officer, there were less bonuses offered. When they were, they usually had time in grade stipulations, or that you had to be within one year of the end of your obligation (to make extending the obligation worthwhile). I missed eligibility by months on at least 2 bonuses I know of. My wife, being Enlisted, more readily qualified, with the only stipulation being she extended for six years.
posted by mystyk at 9:16 AM on October 23, 2016 [34 favorites]
One of the worst things about this is that the amounts of money are an incredible hardship for an individual or family, but less than nothing to the Defense Department. So far they've recovered $22 million dollars, which is four thousandths of a percent of the DoD's 2016 budget (.0042% to be exact). They don't need that money and ruining the lives of apparently innocent veterans to get is despicable.
I also wonder if they're hitting up the estates of the soldiers who died in combat for this money, as if this could get any more horrible.
posted by Copronymus at 9:19 AM on October 23, 2016 [69 favorites]
I also wonder if they're hitting up the estates of the soldiers who died in combat for this money, as if this could get any more horrible.
posted by Copronymus at 9:19 AM on October 23, 2016 [69 favorites]
This is crazy, where the heck is the California congressional delegation on this? The obvious PR benefits of standing up for the troops should be more than enough to spur legislative action even if common decency isn't.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:22 AM on October 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 9:22 AM on October 23, 2016 [14 favorites]
the california congressional delegation is probably too busy getting money from defense lobbyists to notice something like this
posted by pyramid termite at 9:24 AM on October 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 9:24 AM on October 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
I grew up an Army brat. This kind of shit happened all the time. We made a mistake and payed you too much for the last 8 months. So we won't pay you anything this month to make up for it. Oh you have 4 kids to feed? Too bad.
posted by Bee'sWing at 9:27 AM on October 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 9:27 AM on October 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
This story was published yesterday, Saturday. If the CA Legislature can fix it, I imagine they'll get on it very quickly now that it's out. (In an ideal world the legislature would have been paying attention months ago and done something proactively. But, um, that's a bit optimistic for American politics.)
posted by Nelson at 9:30 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 9:30 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wait I thought Support the Troops meant putting a yellow ribbon on your tree
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:31 AM on October 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:31 AM on October 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
I don't understand why the contracts are not legally binding on both parties.
posted by Horselover Fat at 9:49 AM on October 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Horselover Fat at 9:49 AM on October 23, 2016 [16 favorites]
Isn't there some kind of statute of limitations for recovery of amounts paid almost 10 years ago? Or is this case different because it involves a government agency?
FTA: "Robert D’Andrea, a retired Army major and Iraq veteran, was told to return a $20,000 bonus he received in 2008 because auditors could not find a copy of the contract he says he signed."
I mean, I thought scenarios like the above are exactly why statutes of limitation are in place. It would be a tremendous burden on people to be expected to keep paperwork of every single transaction they entered into over the course of decades, and for all parties to be able to supply proof of whether the contract terms were violated.
posted by cynical pinnacle at 10:00 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
FTA: "Robert D’Andrea, a retired Army major and Iraq veteran, was told to return a $20,000 bonus he received in 2008 because auditors could not find a copy of the contract he says he signed."
I mean, I thought scenarios like the above are exactly why statutes of limitation are in place. It would be a tremendous burden on people to be expected to keep paperwork of every single transaction they entered into over the course of decades, and for all parties to be able to supply proof of whether the contract terms were violated.
posted by cynical pinnacle at 10:00 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
>> "I don't understand why the contracts are not legally binding on both parties."
They're claiming that the contracts were never valid in the first place, because they were given to people who allegedly didn't qualify for them. Therefore, if the payment was never considered properly approved, it can be recouped even years later. Under the legal reasoning being used, it literally doesn't even matter if the Soldiers had any clue about the situation, because they're not claiming the Soldiers were engaged in fraud, but rather that they were overpaid. And from what I heard, an adjustment to a farm bill ~2008 changed things so that there's effectively no statute of limitations on the collections, allowing them to go back in some cases more than a decade.
The worst of this I saw was that one guy even started a class-action suit over it, and the Government then forgave *his* debt so that they could argue his case lacks standing to continue. Another appalling thing is that they are recouping the full amount, even though bonuses are pre-taxed -- a $15k bonus may be $11k in payment and $4k in tax, but they're insisting on getting $15k back, and then are charging interest on the full balance.
posted by mystyk at 10:04 AM on October 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
They're claiming that the contracts were never valid in the first place, because they were given to people who allegedly didn't qualify for them. Therefore, if the payment was never considered properly approved, it can be recouped even years later. Under the legal reasoning being used, it literally doesn't even matter if the Soldiers had any clue about the situation, because they're not claiming the Soldiers were engaged in fraud, but rather that they were overpaid. And from what I heard, an adjustment to a farm bill ~2008 changed things so that there's effectively no statute of limitations on the collections, allowing them to go back in some cases more than a decade.
The worst of this I saw was that one guy even started a class-action suit over it, and the Government then forgave *his* debt so that they could argue his case lacks standing to continue. Another appalling thing is that they are recouping the full amount, even though bonuses are pre-taxed -- a $15k bonus may be $11k in payment and $4k in tax, but they're insisting on getting $15k back, and then are charging interest on the full balance.
posted by mystyk at 10:04 AM on October 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
I don't understand why the contracts are not legally binding on both parties.
It's been over 30 years, but I looked into enlisting in the army after high school as a way to see the world, get some life experiences, and get some money for college. I talked to a recruiter several times, took the ASVAB, picked out some potential training options, but when it came time to sign up the enlistment papers were written so heavily in the army's favor that they basically had no obligation to do anything the recruiter said they would try to. Lots of weasel words from the recruiter, too. So I'm sure whatever contract there was puts all the burden on the soldier in case of a mistake. I understand why the government needs to be able to call the shots when it comes to the armed forces, but it is possible to go too far.
Have any of the presidential candidates weighed in on this? Seems like a good opportunity.
posted by TedW at 10:10 AM on October 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's been over 30 years, but I looked into enlisting in the army after high school as a way to see the world, get some life experiences, and get some money for college. I talked to a recruiter several times, took the ASVAB, picked out some potential training options, but when it came time to sign up the enlistment papers were written so heavily in the army's favor that they basically had no obligation to do anything the recruiter said they would try to. Lots of weasel words from the recruiter, too. So I'm sure whatever contract there was puts all the burden on the soldier in case of a mistake. I understand why the government needs to be able to call the shots when it comes to the armed forces, but it is possible to go too far.
Have any of the presidential candidates weighed in on this? Seems like a good opportunity.
posted by TedW at 10:10 AM on October 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Flabbergasted, completely flabbergasted. And angry. I actually angry for the people effected by this and I don't even know any personally.
And leaving aside how utterly horrific this is how does the Guard and the DoD expect any enlistment bonus to in the future to ever entice someone to sign up?
Also this is the sort of thing that convinces me the US will never have an armed insurrection. If ex army personnel who have served multiple tours in an active war zone aren't up in bell towers somewhere over this kind of thing no effective revolution could ever get traction.
Also presumably they would have paid income tax on these bonuses; I wonder if people are being allowed to refile their taxes?
posted by Mitheral at 10:44 AM on October 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
And leaving aside how utterly horrific this is how does the Guard and the DoD expect any enlistment bonus to in the future to ever entice someone to sign up?
Also this is the sort of thing that convinces me the US will never have an armed insurrection. If ex army personnel who have served multiple tours in an active war zone aren't up in bell towers somewhere over this kind of thing no effective revolution could ever get traction.
Also presumably they would have paid income tax on these bonuses; I wonder if people are being allowed to refile their taxes?
posted by Mitheral at 10:44 AM on October 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mystyk: Another appalling thing is that they are recouping the full amount, even though bonuses are pre-taxed -- a $15k bonus may be $11k in payment and $4k in tax, but they're insisting on getting $15k back, and then are charging interest on the full balance.
Is there any time limitation on amending taxes for those years?
Not that this excuses any of this unholy mess. And Bee's Wing news that "this kind of shit happened all the time" makes me feel like I've been living in a cave.
I known I'm too old to be shocked by this, but I truly am.
posted by she's not there at 10:59 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there any time limitation on amending taxes for those years?
Not that this excuses any of this unholy mess. And Bee's Wing news that "this kind of shit happened all the time" makes me feel like I've been living in a cave.
I known I'm too old to be shocked by this, but I truly am.
posted by she's not there at 10:59 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is there any time limitation on amending taxes for those years?
If the amount is 3k or more, the claim of right rule (IRC 1341) would give them a tax credit in the year of repayment corresponding to the income tax paid in the year of receipt.
Not sure how FICA would work. The statute of limitations may have closed.
posted by jpe at 11:10 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
If the amount is 3k or more, the claim of right rule (IRC 1341) would give them a tax credit in the year of repayment corresponding to the income tax paid in the year of receipt.
Not sure how FICA would work. The statute of limitations may have closed.
posted by jpe at 11:10 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
>> "Is there any time limitation on amending taxes for those years?"
At the federal level, the limit is still 3 years from the date you filed the tax return you wish to amend (not merely from tax day itself). At the state level, I honestly don't know, but I would bet it differs from state to state.
jpe makes a good comment about the fact that, for federal taxes, the amount that was subject to tax can be deducted later, even if out of the amendment window, if that amount is >$3k.
However, even this is compounded by the fact that very few people keep past tax returns longer than they have to, so unless they used a tax preparation service that kept records they may genuinely not have records to substantiate it.
posted by mystyk at 11:17 AM on October 23, 2016
At the federal level, the limit is still 3 years from the date you filed the tax return you wish to amend (not merely from tax day itself). At the state level, I honestly don't know, but I would bet it differs from state to state.
jpe makes a good comment about the fact that, for federal taxes, the amount that was subject to tax can be deducted later, even if out of the amendment window, if that amount is >$3k.
However, even this is compounded by the fact that very few people keep past tax returns longer than they have to, so unless they used a tax preparation service that kept records they may genuinely not have records to substantiate it.
posted by mystyk at 11:17 AM on October 23, 2016
Presumably the tax was withheld, meaning the pentagon (not the vets) sent it to the IRS... but the pentagon is still billing the vets for money that the pentagon claims it erroneously paid to another branch of government? Nice piece of work there.
posted by anonymisc at 11:18 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by anonymisc at 11:18 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't say I never felt the pull of the military. To be young and have someone offering you money to do good, while working with guys just like me towards a common purpose and bonding as a group.
But all of that was predicated on giving up your rights in order to blindly follow an institution that clearly didn't give a damn about you half the time. Yet it wanted you to kill people and break things on its orders. If nothing else, MASH taught me that path had too minefields lying beneath a hero's path.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:40 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
But all of that was predicated on giving up your rights in order to blindly follow an institution that clearly didn't give a damn about you half the time. Yet it wanted you to kill people and break things on its orders. If nothing else, MASH taught me that path had too minefields lying beneath a hero's path.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:40 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I realize that people who sign up for military service under normal circumstances are risking injury or death. But if someone signs up because of a bonus, is injured and then the bonus is revoked, does that person have grounds for a civil lawsuit against the guard due to fraud?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:46 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:46 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
mystyk; do you have a source for your info about claiming the contracts are invalid? or the tax thing? I'm not saying you're wrong, just you have more info than I've been able to find online.
I'm also wondering now if the California legislature can fix this, or if this is a national matter. I don't honestly know.
posted by Nelson at 11:50 AM on October 23, 2016
I'm also wondering now if the California legislature can fix this, or if this is a national matter. I don't honestly know.
posted by Nelson at 11:50 AM on October 23, 2016
Filing this article and discussion for the future possibility that any of my children or grandchildren ever consider joining the armed forces.
posted by Miss Cellania at 11:53 AM on October 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Miss Cellania at 11:53 AM on October 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Nelson, my knowledge is admittedly second-hand. As I mentioned originally, I never got a bonus, and my wife's one bonus was via the Reserve, which I'm hoping means it won't hit us.
I saw a couple of mentions to the contract being invalid as the reason, but the main one I saw on that was the claims made in the case where the service member tried to start a class-action process. One person I know got one of the notices that they owe for their bonus (which I only found out about when I posted the article on FaceBook) and said the notice claimed the same.
As for the recouping portions already paid in tax, I'm trying to find the places I saw it, and the only place where I have found it again is in the text of the change.org petition on this matter, which is a bit rambling. I've already passed a note to the same friend to see if they can confirm that.
If I find more sources, I'll add them.
posted by mystyk at 12:08 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I saw a couple of mentions to the contract being invalid as the reason, but the main one I saw on that was the claims made in the case where the service member tried to start a class-action process. One person I know got one of the notices that they owe for their bonus (which I only found out about when I posted the article on FaceBook) and said the notice claimed the same.
As for the recouping portions already paid in tax, I'm trying to find the places I saw it, and the only place where I have found it again is in the text of the change.org petition on this matter, which is a bit rambling. I've already passed a note to the same friend to see if they can confirm that.
If I find more sources, I'll add them.
posted by mystyk at 12:08 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It would seem to me, if the military is claiming that the bonuses have to be repaid because they can't find the signed contract, that would make their claim invalid.
posted by evilDoug at 12:18 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 12:18 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here's an older article about this, dealing specifically with the class-action effort. It's from February, so this has been going on for a while before blowing up this week. courthousenews.com
Here's a website, set up in April but still pretty bare-bones, set up by some of those affected. So far it only seems to reference the change.org petition and the class action write-up from coutrhouse news. calvetsforjustice.com
posted by mystyk at 12:20 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's a website, set up in April but still pretty bare-bones, set up by some of those affected. So far it only seems to reference the change.org petition and the class action write-up from coutrhouse news. calvetsforjustice.com
posted by mystyk at 12:20 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
This story only broke over the weekend, so I've simply been planning on calling my chain-of-electeds tomorrow.
posted by rhizome at 12:48 PM on October 23, 2016
posted by rhizome at 12:48 PM on October 23, 2016
Good tweetstorm filling in some blanks.
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 12:56 PM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
That tweetstorm is full of info. It asserts that it's up to Congress to fix the problem about debt forgiveness. It also links a few more articles.. Bee exclusive: Massive fraud at California Guard, officials allege (2010), As National Guard reclaims incentives, soldiers feel pain (2013), and Recruiting fraud, kickback scandal rocks Army (2014). It's surprising how far back these stories go.
Thanks for filling in the extra info mystyk!
posted by Nelson at 1:02 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks for filling in the extra info mystyk!
posted by Nelson at 1:02 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Fuck Maggie's farm.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:03 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:03 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you've been around the military for very long, you've seen this kind of thing before, though not usually so expensive. The worst I've seen is the soldiers who come back after serving multiple tours and then discharged with less than honorable discharges because of "personality disorders."
posted by etaoin at 1:33 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by etaoin at 1:33 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is total bullshit. Disgusting.
posted by gt2 at 2:20 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by gt2 at 2:20 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of the worst things about this is that the amounts of money are an incredible hardship for an individual or family, but less than nothing to the Defense Department.
Yeah. They could probably recoup the entire amount by not buying a few F-35s or something. For those of you who "feel the pull of the military," be advised that the military lies to its people routinely, habitually, with no remorse, and usually no recourse. The subject of this post is particularly egregious, and is inexcusable, but is of a kind with what the mil does all the time. You have been warned.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah. They could probably recoup the entire amount by not buying a few F-35s or something. For those of you who "feel the pull of the military," be advised that the military lies to its people routinely, habitually, with no remorse, and usually no recourse. The subject of this post is particularly egregious, and is inexcusable, but is of a kind with what the mil does all the time. You have been warned.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 2:52 PM on October 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think "the Guard and the DoD expect .. enlistment bonus to [continue to] entice [enlistment]" because the sorts who'd enlist won't ever hear this story, Mitheral. Anti-war groups including local high school students could spread this story whenever recruiters come, but you need to find them and talk to them.
We need an organization dedicated to providing anti-war high school student with anti-recruitment information that is easy to read and distribute, and likely to be effective at dissuading recruitment.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:51 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
We need an organization dedicated to providing anti-war high school student with anti-recruitment information that is easy to read and distribute, and likely to be effective at dissuading recruitment.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:51 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hm -- folks whose business model is spending 1/2 of the federal discretionary budget in order to kill and maim foreigners, or to defend our borders from imaginary threats ginned up by conservative politicians, are unreliable business partners? When your moral paradigm includes nuking, napalming and cluster-bombing children by the tens of thousands out of sad necessity, screwing a few thousand soldiers out of a few thousand dollars is peanuts.
posted by chortly at 6:12 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by chortly at 6:12 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Because in the case of the soldiers, the person who's ultra-nationalist and only gives a crap about people from their own country is still a terrible person by their own standards and not just yours.
posted by Zalzidrax at 6:21 PM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Zalzidrax at 6:21 PM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
includes nuking, napalming and cluster-bombing children by the tens of thousands out of sad necessity,
Uh, what?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:35 PM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Uh, what?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:35 PM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Former California Guardsman here, was serving when this story first broke in 2010. Glad to see it's finally, finally getting some traction outside of the state.
Wrote an actual letter to my Congressman yesterday and will be sending it out tomorrow. It's time they fixed this.
posted by zbaco at 7:45 PM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Wrote an actual letter to my Congressman yesterday and will be sending it out tomorrow. It's time they fixed this.
posted by zbaco at 7:45 PM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
And I thought the election thread would be the most disgusting thing I read today.
posted by medusa at 8:05 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by medusa at 8:05 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Related feature story by 60 Minutes from last May. Click for video segment and text transcript with stills.
Carry on.
posted by intermod at 8:51 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Carry on.
posted by intermod at 8:51 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's the We the People petition at whitehouse.gov. Needs lots more signatures.
posted by bryon at 10:10 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by bryon at 10:10 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Stripes.com: Lawmakers condemn Pentagon effort to recover enlistment bonuses from California vets
posted by mystyk at 3:48 AM on October 24, 2016
posted by mystyk at 3:48 AM on October 24, 2016
There's lots of detail in the 60 Minutes transcript about how the recruiters abused the system to pocket their own $2000 bonuses for each reenlistment.
And the idea that California legislators didn't know about this until yesterday is pretty hard to swallow. The articles point out soldiers have been contacting them for years.
posted by mediareport at 4:43 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
And the idea that California legislators didn't know about this until yesterday is pretty hard to swallow. The articles point out soldiers have been contacting them for years.
posted by mediareport at 4:43 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
"We'd love to forgive the debts, but our hands are legally tied" sounds plausible—except for the part about the class action suit that was neutered by forgiving the debt of the guy who started it. Doesn't that mean that there is, in fact, someone with the power to forgive individual debts without new legislation being passed for that purpose?
posted by No-sword at 4:51 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 4:51 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Stars and Stripes article mystyk linked (which is originally LA Times reporting) indicates it's a federal matter, not the state of California.
California Guard officials in Sacramento say federal law bars them from wiping out the debts, insisting that only the Pentagon can do so and that it may require an act of Congress.posted by Nelson at 5:52 AM on October 24, 2016
There are some amusing anti-war campaigns n the UK like Be The Meat and BattlefieldCasualties.co.uk, but they seem pitched poorly for the U.S. audience.
Americans would respond better to messages like :
- You recruiter is lying and does not even understand the situation himself.
- They force you to stay in, ala stop loss, making it more like jail than you expect.
- They deny you medical care that they promise, and take back your enlistment bonuses.
- They often give soldiers discharges that make it hard to find work.
- And the fraudulent for-profit school industry loves stealing people's GI bill money.
You do not want to be involved with these sorts of people!
posted by jeffburdges at 6:11 AM on October 24, 2016
Americans would respond better to messages like :
- You recruiter is lying and does not even understand the situation himself.
- They force you to stay in, ala stop loss, making it more like jail than you expect.
- They deny you medical care that they promise, and take back your enlistment bonuses.
- They often give soldiers discharges that make it hard to find work.
- And the fraudulent for-profit school industry loves stealing people's GI bill money.
You do not want to be involved with these sorts of people!
posted by jeffburdges at 6:11 AM on October 24, 2016
This is horrific.
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 7:04 AM on October 24, 2016
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 7:04 AM on October 24, 2016
Commentary from policy professor Mark Kleiman: Keeping the public faith: "...President Obama (or President Clinton) can, and should, propose to the Congress a bill for the relief of the victims; in justice, that should include giving back the $22 million that has been repaid so far. We’re the government of the United States of America, and our word is always good. Period."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:27 AM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:27 AM on October 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't really understand how this ends up on the soldiers. If it is okay to invalidate a contract after the fact like this, what would be stopping my employer from claiming that I was hired improperly because their own HR person did not make sure I met every item in the job requirements and demanding my salary back? Unless a soldier knowingly lied in order to qualify, they fulfilled their side of the contract in good faith, and any issue with the bonus being given is an internal matter between the DoD and the Reserve.
posted by Nothing at 11:54 AM on October 24, 2016
posted by Nothing at 11:54 AM on October 24, 2016
However, even this is compounded by the fact that very few people keep past tax returns longer than they have to, so unless they used a tax preparation service that kept records they may genuinely not have records to substantiate it.
posted by mystyk at 11:17 AM on October 23 [+] [!]
Eh, they should claim that they have no copies of the tax submission and should reclaim the past taxes saying it was filed in error.
posted by asra at 12:30 PM on October 24, 2016
The articles point out soldiers have been contacting them for years.
were those years election years? Also was a check attached?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:19 PM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
were those years election years? Also was a check attached?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 4:19 PM on October 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
CNN found one of the (suitably outraged) California congressmen to appear on national tv, but no one from the Defense Department.
posted by sammyo at 9:39 AM on October 25, 2016
posted by sammyo at 9:39 AM on October 25, 2016
"The re-enlistments was overseen by a master sergeant named Toni L. Jaffe of Citrus Heights, Calif., who lavished troops with bonuses and forgiveness of student loans. A federal inquiry in 2010 estimated that as much as $100 million in improper bonuses might have been paid. The Guard says that total is closer to $70 million. Ms. Jaffe, who has since left the military, pleaded guilty in 2012 to approving more than $15 million in fraudulent claims."
I'm assuming there is a PX in hell.
posted by clavdivs at 4:28 PM on October 25, 2016
I'm assuming there is a PX in hell.
posted by clavdivs at 4:28 PM on October 25, 2016
If I sign a contract with an agent of a corporation, and it turns out that that agent offered me terms that their bosses didn’t approve of, that’s not my problem. The contract is not invalidated. The corporation can sue their agent for damages, but they have no recourse against me.
That argument isn’t legally applicable to this case, but Congress can and should change that.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 6:29 PM on October 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
That argument isn’t legally applicable to this case, but Congress can and should change that.
posted by Fongotskilernie at 6:29 PM on October 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Obama tells Pentagon to speed up review of California Guard enlistment bonuses
The comments by White House spokesman Josh Earnest suggest the administration is running into legal and policy roadblocks as it struggles to handle a public relations headache for the Pentagon, the National Guard and members of Congress who were caught off guard by the scope of the problem.posted by Nelson at 6:53 PM on October 25, 2016
It's weird to think of this as a cover story for the simple math that says we have so many wars, we've run out of natural enlistees and are now having to resort to bribes and fraud to prosecute those wars.
posted by rhizome at 7:57 PM on October 25, 2016
posted by rhizome at 7:57 PM on October 25, 2016
Yes, and receiving money for being in the military makes us mercenaries.
*eyeroll.gif*
posted by Etrigan at 3:58 AM on October 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
*eyeroll.gif*
posted by Etrigan at 3:58 AM on October 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
California National Guard members won’t have to pay back recruiting bonuses, Defense secretary says.
posted by PearlRose at 7:57 AM on October 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by PearlRose at 7:57 AM on October 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey that's super awesome but let's hope they do something for people who already did pay some or all back. I saw this on the news and they spoke to one veteran who had to take a second mortgage on his house. There are others in the link that had wage garnishments. the fix really needs to help everyone.
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:50 AM on October 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by LizBoBiz at 8:50 AM on October 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
California National Guard members won’t have to pay back recruiting bonuses, Defense secretary says.
While that is the headline on the article, the article itself does not match it. The defense secretary has asked the Pentagon to put the process on hold while they work out what to do next. It doesn't look like he's calling for any change in policy, only he wants a process that will move faster and expedite appeals and/or repayment, as appropriate.
NPR has the full text of his statement.
posted by Shmuel510 at 12:43 PM on October 26, 2016
While that is the headline on the article, the article itself does not match it. The defense secretary has asked the Pentagon to put the process on hold while they work out what to do next. It doesn't look like he's calling for any change in policy, only he wants a process that will move faster and expedite appeals and/or repayment, as appropriate.
NPR has the full text of his statement.
posted by Shmuel510 at 12:43 PM on October 26, 2016
I guess those people who reenlisted because of the bonuses can have their time back too. What utter bullshit.
posted by bystander at 11:03 PM on November 2, 2016
posted by bystander at 11:03 PM on November 2, 2016
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posted by lalochezia at 9:02 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]