China-Japan-Russia-S.Korea Plan New Grid

November 13, 2016 9:35 PM

Entrepreneurs in China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan have signed a Memorandum of Understanding that seeks to create the Asia Super Grid. It will transmit electrical power from renewable sources from areas of the world that are best able to produce it to consumers in other parts of the world. The idea is dependent on development of an ultra-high voltage grid operating at more than 1,000 kilovolts AC and 800 kilovolts DC over thousands of kilometers. It envisions interconnecting grids across regions, nations, and even continents with a capacity of over 10 gigawatts.

The challenge for GEI, he noted, was connecting the world’s alternative energy resources of wind, hydro, and solar to the areas of demand. Such energy sources are available in a band arcing from North Africa through central Asia to eastern Russia and North Asia. But the closest areas of demand are in Europe, southern Africa, and East and Southeast Asia. And because “wind and solar power are random, intermittent, and volatile,” noted Zhenya, “only by integrating them into a vast power grid can they enjoy better development.”

posted by lazycomputerkids (28 comments total)

Buckminster Fuller was ahead of his time.
posted by flabdablet at 9:45 PM on November 13, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'll feel more optimistic about this idea once Japan finds a way to share electricity between 60Hz western Japan and 50Hz eastern Japan! (This was a major issue during the load-balancing after the loss of the Fukushima power plant, because half of the country was literally unable to contribute power to make up the deficit)
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:46 PM on November 13, 2016 [13 favorites]

a way to share electricity between 60Hz western Japan and 50Hz eastern Japan

A high voltage DC interconnect could do this without difficulty.
posted by flabdablet at 9:48 PM on November 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's hvdc. Frequency doesn't matter.

But the way I parsed this they are basically betting on the state grids building the hvdc grid first. Thanks Korean - Japan -China link seems speculative.
posted by JPD at 9:54 PM on November 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wikipedia says there's already a 6.4GW Irkutsk-Beijing interconnect, but I couldn't find any details of that being actually built, merely a 2007 presentation that says it'll be there by 2015.

I liked the look of IEEE Spectrum's overview of global HVDC in 2015.
posted by ambrosen at 12:18 AM on November 14, 2016 [4 favorites]

I feel like this needs to be contextualised against China's One Belt One Road initiative as well. Just last week there's been a one-week g2g event that took place in Beijing, and I think more regional events are being slated this month. Next week will be Melbourne.
posted by cendawanita at 1:08 AM on November 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

@ambrosen – great read, thank you.

While its easy to hate on American energy policy at the moment, what I found striking about that piece is the difference in ambition of planned HVDC deployments. Especially between the US and its Eastern and Atlantic neighbours.

Many plans look to reach across geographies and multiple countries and cultures...

Desertec: First proposed by a German-led consortium in 2009, the Desertec project aims to harvest solar power in the Mediterranean and other deserts of the world

Southeast Asian super grid: This supergrid proposal is envisioned as an undersea HVDC cable running from the northern coast of Australia along the Indonesian archipelago and up into the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indochina and then eventually into China

Asian super grid: The proposed Asian supergrid would establish links between the electricity grids of China, Japan, Korea, Mongolia, and possibly Russia.

Compared with the American mention, that is not only limited in scope but also a regional exercise within the country itself.

Atlantic Wind Connection: This proposed offshore transmission line would span the mid-Atlantic region of the United States from New Jersey to Virginia

This is not to malign America at all, as much as it is to witness the ambition of a number of countries in building essentially a global internet of electricity. In fact, the way the Asian super grid is described, it sounds similar to international interlinks between mobile operators.

Where this gets really exciting is both the potential to upscale renewable generation much faster – larger international markets for power – and also what a global interlinked energy grid means for the economies of the developing world.

Taking countries from limited electrical resources to nearly unlimited electrical resources within a generation or two will be like discovering oil in the 1800s. The economies that these grids will build will simply be amazing – China-levels of growth without the commensurate growth in pollution.

Brilliant read, many thanks.
posted by nickrussell at 2:44 AM on November 14, 2016 [10 favorites]

Wide area synchronous grid - wiki
posted by mumimor at 3:29 AM on November 14, 2016

Mod note: Deleted angry "this is BS" comment. Maybe you need to look around a bit more carefully to find more info about the Asian super grid concept, which seems to have plenty of sources. At any rate, if you think something should not be posted here, contact mods or else ask in a reasonable way in the thread for more backup information.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:35 AM on November 14, 2016

Uh to be clear I am not at all questioning HVDC, which is a real ( and old) method with practical applications. But I can see no evidence that this plan exsists in any real kind of way. My criticism is not not about the existence HVDC (shocker it is), but that this project does not seem to exist in any kind of real way. And yes HVDC is an efficient way to transmit power over long distances . BUT the line (copper) losses you be talking about (while less than transformed AC) at the lengths that this supposed project talks about would be completely insane when compared to localized production. But I guess my main point is there any credible source showing this project is anything but internet fiction? If anyone has one I'd like to see it.
posted by Puddle at 3:50 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here's some much better commentary on the proposal:

But a mega grid linking China, Russia, South Korea, Japan and possibly other countries will face many of the same political and financial issues that derailed Desertec. A yet more fundamental question also arises. Such a mega grid, if it came to be, would fit well into the traditional centralised model of electricity system.

It is just an MoU, but the China state grid is a signatory, and they have plenty of experience:

Last August, construction began on a west-to-east HVDC transmission project to transport about 40 billion kWh per year from the Xiluodu hydropower plant in southwest China 1700 km to the eastern province of Zhejiang from 2014. The project follows SGCC's Xiangjiaba-Shanghai and Jinping-Sunan transmission lines, which were completed in 2010 and 2012 respectively. The three transmission lines combined will have 21.6 GW of capacity.

posted by ambrosen at 4:14 AM on November 14, 2016 [7 favorites]

Also from my second link above, "Today, a long distance 800 kV HVDC line loses just 3.5 per cent per 1000 km".
posted by ambrosen at 4:15 AM on November 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

the Desertec project aims to harvest solar power in the Mediterranean and other deserts of the world

Uh, the water was still there last time I checked.
posted by Dr Dracator at 4:44 AM on November 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ambrosen, that's exactly right, so this is just a back of the envelop calculation if you take just the say china - japan connection in the article that is aprox. 3000km as the crow flies which adds up (at 3.5%/1000km line loss for a 800kv line) to a 10.5% loss of total power transmitted in that stretch alone. That is needless to say a lot. Especially as it ignores other system losses inherent to all electrical systems.

That being said HVDC is actually being used to connect (relatively) distant offshore wind farms etc. There are real applications that are actually happening and have been built. Here is a fairly good little Siemens fact sheet about HVDC, they go over a few projects that give of a good sense of what types and scales of things HVDC lines are used for:

[PDF link]
posted by Puddle at 4:48 AM on November 14, 2016 [4 favorites]

the Desertec project aims to harvest solar power in the Mediterranean and other deserts of the world

Uh, the water was still there last time I checked.

The continent-spanning desert is still there, too.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:43 AM on November 14, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is not to malign America at all, as much as it is to witness the ambition of a number of countries in building essentially a global internet of electricity. In fact, the way the Asian super grid is described, it sounds similar to international interlinks between mobile operators.

I don't know about Japan or Korea, but surely China's electrical grid is state-owned. Electricity in the US is scattered across a number of separate providers with regional monopolies.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:03 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ambrosen, that's exactly right, so this is just a back of the envelop calculation if you take just the say china - japan connection in the article that is aprox. 3000km as the crow flies which adds up (at 3.5%/1000km line loss for a 800kv line) to a 10.5% loss of total power transmitted in that stretch alone.

Serious question, is that loss even a problem with wind/solar? You might have to build and maintain more generation capacity to make up for it, but you'd have to do the same and pay for more fuel and the consequences of the additional CO2 and other pollution with non-renewable generation. It seems like maybe the losses just aren't as big a deal with renewables because fuel is essentially limitless, but I don't know if I'm missing something.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:09 AM on November 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does this increase the risk of the scope of damage in the case of a major solar flare event? Or offer safeguards?
posted by Theta States at 9:01 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

A 10% loss means a price increase of 10% everything else being equal. Now if solar is 50% cheaper than coal that 10% can be absorbed; if Solar is 10% more expensive than coal already it can make convincing people to change over more difficult.

And of course distant power is going to be more expensive anyways because of the capital and ongoing cost of transmission.

One of the interesting possible developments for me is once the electrical generating capability is in place to service distant locations industry may move closer to the generating capability.
posted by Mitheral at 9:36 AM on November 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thank you for posting; it is a wonderful counter to my concerns about ramifications of US potentially pulling out of Paris accord, refocus on coal, etc. I truly appreciate hearing about this.
posted by rabidsegue at 11:18 AM on November 14, 2016

Solar outstrips coal in past six months of UK electricity generation
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on November 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does this increase the risk of the scope of damage in the case of a major solar flare event? Or offer safeguards?


Pretty much every new grid project comes with space weather protections built in. It's the older stuff you have to worry about.
posted by ocschwar at 11:29 AM on November 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

Solar outstrips coal in past six months of UK electricity generation

And yet our government has cut financial support for solar while approving fracking under our soil. Fuck I hate the Tories. Not just because they're wankers, but because they're so fucking thick.
posted by howfar at 1:36 PM on November 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

"...because they're so fucking thick"

Many (if not all) governments worldwide are the victims of regulatory capture. It's amazingly easy to not notice things if your pay depends on them never being noticed.
posted by MikeWarot at 1:50 PM on November 14, 2016 [5 favorites]

"...because they're so fucking thick"


When I was in college, the engineering departments were split like the population. Not any more.
It's gotten impossible to be a self-respecting engineer and support a party whose platforms go directly against the hard earned domain knowledge of the profession.
posted by ocschwar at 1:53 PM on November 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

...once Japan finds a way to share electricity between 60Hz western Japan and 50Hz eastern Japan...

Japan currently has four frequency converter stations, which convert between 50hz and 60hz AC via high-voltage DC. My Japanese isn't too good, so I'm relying on English-language Wikipedia, but it looks like there was at least one converter station as early as 1965 (presumably so that the newly-built Sakuma Dam could produce juice for either region of the country). I can't find as much info on the others, but it appears that most of the other converters were either built or heavily upgraded in the 1990s. see also: Shin Shinano, Higashi-Shimizu, and Minami-Fukumitsu.

tldr; there is a difference between frequency conversion, and access to it in the aftermath of an earthquake that knocked out a bunch of transmission lines
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 4:51 PM on November 14, 2016

Pretty much every new grid project comes with space weather protections built in. It's the older stuff you have to worry about.

Oh! That's great to hear. Do you by any chance have any links, or know what it's called, when they design a grid to protect against solar flare events?
I'm baffled how you could design to avoid that kind of induction.
posted by Theta States at 6:13 AM on November 15, 2016

The main problem is that the induced DC currents cause transformers to go into saturation, which causes fault currents to flow. Protective relays check for the DC current, and shut things down quickly enough to prevent permanent damage, at the cost of interrupting the grid.
A high voltage DC line is less likely to have problems, as it would merely cause a few percent voltage swing.
posted by MikeWarot at 11:37 AM on November 15, 2016 [2 favorites]