Where can we get some drugs?
November 16, 2016 11:26 AM Subscribe
Isaiah Lopaz is an American artist living in Berlin. After years of racist comments, he printed some of them on t-shirts and asked a friend to photograph him wearing them around Berlin.
Holy shit, I'm going to defend the ignorant rascists here. When Metafileter collectively reduces me to a pile of smoldering ash, remember I went in with my eyes wide open as to the eventual results.
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism, recognizing the two are pretty closely related and one can't exist without the other. The above quote is abhorent and foolish, but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people. It's a precursor position rather than the more fully formed North American rascism. Lets call it rascism-lite (TM).
posted by Keith Talent at 11:50 AM on November 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism, recognizing the two are pretty closely related and one can't exist without the other. The above quote is abhorent and foolish, but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people. It's a precursor position rather than the more fully formed North American rascism. Lets call it rascism-lite (TM).
posted by Keith Talent at 11:50 AM on November 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait, why don't we call ignorant-racism "racism," since it's so common, and then call Stormfront-esque hatred "also racism?"
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:09 PM on November 16, 2016 [82 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:09 PM on November 16, 2016 [82 favorites]
I think that what keeps other gay people from recognizing my sexuality is the fact that I am black. I find that very strange; it’s something that only happens in Germany.
Uhhhh. I have definitely noticed a tendency of white people to not believe that poc are gay. Like you can only be one thing, and more than one thing is just ridiculous or too much other to grasp. Right here in the good ol' U S of A.
Why is that a thing.
posted by phunniemee at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2016 [25 favorites]
Uhhhh. I have definitely noticed a tendency of white people to not believe that poc are gay. Like you can only be one thing, and more than one thing is just ridiculous or too much other to grasp. Right here in the good ol' U S of A.
Why is that a thing.
posted by phunniemee at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2016 [25 favorites]
why don't quit arguing about what to call it and think about how we can lessen it?
posted by jonmc at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 12:18 PM on November 16, 2016 [11 favorites]
seem to stem from
Racism is about what you do and say, I don't give a shit what's in the depths of your innermost snowflake heart.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:20 PM on November 16, 2016 [31 favorites]
Racism is about what you do and say, I don't give a shit what's in the depths of your innermost snowflake heart.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 12:20 PM on November 16, 2016 [31 favorites]
Racism is about what you do and say, I don't give a shit what's in the depths of your innermost snowflake heart.
I wrote this years ago, but there has been a shift in recent years in people's opinion to the idea that what matters most is what's inside. I've always thought that would lead to shit, and I think it has.
People say way too many things like "deep down he's a good person" or "they may act decent, but they're really racist". Unless we're getting married, I don't care who anyone is "inside". I only care how they act. I'd rather have the world full of hateful awful people who acted decently.
posted by bongo_x at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2016 [15 favorites]
I wrote this years ago, but there has been a shift in recent years in people's opinion to the idea that what matters most is what's inside. I've always thought that would lead to shit, and I think it has.
People say way too many things like "deep down he's a good person" or "they may act decent, but they're really racist". Unless we're getting married, I don't care who anyone is "inside". I only care how they act. I'd rather have the world full of hateful awful people who acted decently.
posted by bongo_x at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2016 [15 favorites]
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism
So yes, sort of... but I think the biggest thing that I learned about racism as an (white) adult is that it really doesn't matter why people say it. And like 3/4ths of those things were not ignorance. Germans just asking random black people if they have drugs is pretty crazy racist.
posted by GuyZero at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
So yes, sort of... but I think the biggest thing that I learned about racism as an (white) adult is that it really doesn't matter why people say it. And like 3/4ths of those things were not ignorance. Germans just asking random black people if they have drugs is pretty crazy racist.
posted by GuyZero at 12:33 PM on November 16, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's a precursor position rather than the more fully formed North American rascism. Lets call it rascism-lite (TM).
Let's stop pretending North America invented racism. As a Turkish-German friend told me once, "some of the old people are still f#%&ing Nazis"
but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people
All racism comes from a lack of understanding, it just varies how far down the lack-of-empathy rabbit-hole they've gone.
posted by JauntyFedora at 12:35 PM on November 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
Let's stop pretending North America invented racism. As a Turkish-German friend told me once, "some of the old people are still f#%&ing Nazis"
but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people
All racism comes from a lack of understanding, it just varies how far down the lack-of-empathy rabbit-hole they've gone.
posted by JauntyFedora at 12:35 PM on November 16, 2016 [12 favorites]
> Holy shit, I'm going to defend the ignorant rascists here. When Metafileter collectively reduces me to a pile of smoldering ash, remember I went in with my eyes wide open as to the eventual results.
"It's from ignorance! It's different!" is not an original idea and you dropping it here is not in the least enlightening.
Ignorant racists don't need defending, or did you completely miss the events and outcome of last week.
posted by rtha at 12:41 PM on November 16, 2016 [36 favorites]
"It's from ignorance! It's different!" is not an original idea and you dropping it here is not in the least enlightening.
Ignorant racists don't need defending, or did you completely miss the events and outcome of last week.
posted by rtha at 12:41 PM on November 16, 2016 [36 favorites]
why don't quit arguing about what to call it and think about how we can lessen it?
Because refusing to call racism racism is part of how it's whitewashed and normalized.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:41 PM on November 16, 2016 [52 favorites]
Because refusing to call racism racism is part of how it's whitewashed and normalized.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:41 PM on November 16, 2016 [52 favorites]
Fascism is in the zeitgeist, cross-contamination is inevitable. That said:
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism
I understand the idea of making this defense, but ignorance of systemic racism while living in and perpetuating it is a problem that springs in no small part from that ignorance being willful. You cannot be drawing breath in this country without being aware on some level that racism is a thing that exists in the public consciousness; choosing to deny the reality of it, or to dismiss any responsibility to learn about or engage with it, does not make you not-racist. It just makes you ignorant about your racism.
posted by cortex at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2016 [29 favorites]
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism
I understand the idea of making this defense, but ignorance of systemic racism while living in and perpetuating it is a problem that springs in no small part from that ignorance being willful. You cannot be drawing breath in this country without being aware on some level that racism is a thing that exists in the public consciousness; choosing to deny the reality of it, or to dismiss any responsibility to learn about or engage with it, does not make you not-racist. It just makes you ignorant about your racism.
posted by cortex at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2016 [29 favorites]
Germans have a reputation for being unusually blunt. I hope this does not come across as nationalistic prejudice; I am pretty sure many Germans agree with this characterization.
This is just to point out that Germans may not necessarily be more racist than white Americans; they may just say what we Whiteys cloak in silence and American-style reflexive surface friendliness. That said, it is not unusual for Europeans to view Americans as uncultured yahoos. This is more than a little ironic, given their predilection for adopting much of American culture, and, most especially, African-American musical culture.
posted by kozad at 12:44 PM on November 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is just to point out that Germans may not necessarily be more racist than white Americans; they may just say what we Whiteys cloak in silence and American-style reflexive surface friendliness. That said, it is not unusual for Europeans to view Americans as uncultured yahoos. This is more than a little ironic, given their predilection for adopting much of American culture, and, most especially, African-American musical culture.
posted by kozad at 12:44 PM on November 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think if your first thought reading this article was the potential hurt feelings of the people who said awful racist shit to a person of color, you might want to stop and recalibrate, because you are doing "ally" wrong.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:44 PM on November 16, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:44 PM on November 16, 2016 [24 favorites]
"Oh, well, they don't know any better," or as it more frequently comes across in America, "They're old -- when they were kids, that was perfectly okay." Yeah, well, fuck 'em anyway. They learned to drive and call people on the phone and work a TV remote, they can learn that not all dark-skinned people are drug dealers.
posted by Etrigan at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2016 [53 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2016 [53 favorites]
Surely he could find some way to change the subject to the Holocaust, and whether or not the ancestors of the person who just referred to him having no culture because his ancestors were slaves were complicit.
posted by acb at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2016
posted by acb at 12:45 PM on November 16, 2016
(Some brain spill-over; I should amend that last comment to note that despite my "in this country", this obviously isn't a strictly US thing.)
posted by cortex at 12:49 PM on November 16, 2016
posted by cortex at 12:49 PM on November 16, 2016
That said, it is not unusual for Europeans to view Americans as uncultured yahoos. This is more than a little ironic, given their predilection for adopting much of American culture, and, most especially, African-American musical culture.
Based on my personal stereotypes of Germans I can totally imagine this conversation happening:
American (of any colour): Hello. I am an American who has moved to Germany!
German: When are you moving back?
Because Germans really wouldn't expect an American to want to move to Germany. Which I think is a weird combination of assuming people would rather live in the US than Germany if given the choice and a tacit admission that German culture (like most European countries) is somewhat insular.
But really who cares, I don't think Lopaz really needs help parsing the racists from the merely blunt. His work doesn't need rebuttal.
posted by GuyZero at 12:53 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Based on my personal stereotypes of Germans I can totally imagine this conversation happening:
American (of any colour): Hello. I am an American who has moved to Germany!
German: When are you moving back?
Because Germans really wouldn't expect an American to want to move to Germany. Which I think is a weird combination of assuming people would rather live in the US than Germany if given the choice and a tacit admission that German culture (like most European countries) is somewhat insular.
But really who cares, I don't think Lopaz really needs help parsing the racists from the merely blunt. His work doesn't need rebuttal.
posted by GuyZero at 12:53 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Holy shit, I'm going to defend the ignorant rascists here. When Metafileter collectively reduces me to a pile of smoldering ash, remember I went in with my eyes wide open as to the eventual results.
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism, recognizing the two are pretty closely related and one can't exist without the other. The above quote is abhorent and foolish, but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people. It's a precursor position rather than the more fully formed North American rascism. Lets call it rascism-lite (TM).
A lot of people have addressed (I think calmly and thoughtfully) how racism stemming from ignorance instead of malice doesn't make it okay, and I'd also like to point out, as gently as possible because I totally understand, that many people's initial reaction is to defend the people making ignorant comments instead of the people who suffer from them.
No matter what caused people to say this stuff, I think it makes sense for our first reaction to be like "Oh God I'm sorry Isaiah Lopaz, are you okay?"; he's the aggrieved party here and I'm okay with waiting to understand the people he's calling out (who aren't even named! No individual is directly hurt by these shirts!) until after we check in and make sure he's alright.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:02 PM on November 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism, recognizing the two are pretty closely related and one can't exist without the other. The above quote is abhorent and foolish, but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people. It's a precursor position rather than the more fully formed North American rascism. Lets call it rascism-lite (TM).
A lot of people have addressed (I think calmly and thoughtfully) how racism stemming from ignorance instead of malice doesn't make it okay, and I'd also like to point out, as gently as possible because I totally understand, that many people's initial reaction is to defend the people making ignorant comments instead of the people who suffer from them.
No matter what caused people to say this stuff, I think it makes sense for our first reaction to be like "Oh God I'm sorry Isaiah Lopaz, are you okay?"; he's the aggrieved party here and I'm okay with waiting to understand the people he's calling out (who aren't even named! No individual is directly hurt by these shirts!) until after we check in and make sure he's alright.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:02 PM on November 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
hey may just say what we Whiteys cloak in silence and American-style reflexive surface friendliness.
This has not been my experience of American whites.
posted by maxsparber at 1:04 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
This has not been my experience of American whites.
posted by maxsparber at 1:04 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is just to point out that Germans may not necessarily be more racist than white Americans
I don't think anyone's saying they are.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:08 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone's saying they are.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:08 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
seem to stem from ignorance
You know I was having this argument with someone the other day (on the internet, sigh). They were telling me that having some knowledge (but not all of it) was dangerous. Although the context was different, they were saying something along the lines of "it's dangerous when ignorant people form opinions about PoC without all the knowledge. Someone could see statistics that say that PoC are more likely to commit violent crimes, and assume that all PoC are inherently more violent. It's better that no one tell them that statistic."
and my argument was the answer is always more knowledge. Yes you give them the statistic, but then you give them information on the war on drugs, and after that you give them statistics on PoC who have never been arrested.. and whatever more information you need to give them.
Being given all the information and refusing to acknowledge it is racism at it's most vile. These are willful racists, who are prideful about their racism. Hate is their best friend and they lack empathy.
I don't necessarily agree that ignorant racism isn't a form of racism, though. Really, in the end, it's about how you made another person feel. You might not be racist in your heart-of-hearts, and only made a racist comment out of ignorance, but not seeing that your comment made someone feel bad is where the true crime lies.
Teaching empathy is had as hell, though.
posted by INFJ at 1:12 PM on November 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
You know I was having this argument with someone the other day (on the internet, sigh). They were telling me that having some knowledge (but not all of it) was dangerous. Although the context was different, they were saying something along the lines of "it's dangerous when ignorant people form opinions about PoC without all the knowledge. Someone could see statistics that say that PoC are more likely to commit violent crimes, and assume that all PoC are inherently more violent. It's better that no one tell them that statistic."
and my argument was the answer is always more knowledge. Yes you give them the statistic, but then you give them information on the war on drugs, and after that you give them statistics on PoC who have never been arrested.. and whatever more information you need to give them.
Being given all the information and refusing to acknowledge it is racism at it's most vile. These are willful racists, who are prideful about their racism. Hate is their best friend and they lack empathy.
I don't necessarily agree that ignorant racism isn't a form of racism, though. Really, in the end, it's about how you made another person feel. You might not be racist in your heart-of-hearts, and only made a racist comment out of ignorance, but not seeing that your comment made someone feel bad is where the true crime lies.
Teaching empathy is had as hell, though.
posted by INFJ at 1:12 PM on November 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
It can be hard for non-Americans to parse the intricacies of American race relations and understand why some weird, supposedly lighthearted/harmless stuff is super racist (it took me a few years to understand the 'watermelon' connection, for example). This, however, is not one of those times. It's just examples of Germans being racist af.
posted by The Toad at 1:51 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by The Toad at 1:51 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
In my view, intention is irrelevant. Good, or innocent, intention is what people with privilege get to say. "I didn't know. I didn't mean anything bad. You're too sensitive..."
The focus should shift to consequences. It doesn't matter what your intentions are. If you caused harm, it's on you to figure out what you did, try to make amends, and stop doing it.
If we keep focusing on intentions, we get nowhere except that people of privilege get to have their motives "understood" while the harm they're causing keeps going on.
posted by jasper411 at 2:08 PM on November 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
The focus should shift to consequences. It doesn't matter what your intentions are. If you caused harm, it's on you to figure out what you did, try to make amends, and stop doing it.
If we keep focusing on intentions, we get nowhere except that people of privilege get to have their motives "understood" while the harm they're causing keeps going on.
posted by jasper411 at 2:08 PM on November 16, 2016 [13 favorites]
A friend of mine in Berlin gets this all the time, the insistent, almost panicked "where are you from, no where are you really from" - "I come from Prenzlauer Berg." "I've lived here for 15 years" "Well I'm British in fact yes". "Well my Grandad was from Yemen" - "ah so you're from Africa" - and this was a guy who was trying to chat her up!
I think in the German cultural context these thought patterns are partly perhaps related to a need to classify, to sort into boxes, and a very strong "us/them" national-ethnic (and don't start me on how nationality and ethnicity are assumed to be one and the same) mentality that pervades the culture. Explaining the concept of "othering" just gets blank looks. There is also a tendency to express David Brent-level attitudes - if you're not making a sweeping "negative" generalisation about a group it's not racism - I have literally heard "natural sense of rhythm" stuff from people who would identify as left/radical left/antifa.
But it's 2016 not 1946. Bugger "intent" or "ignorance" as an excuse.
posted by runincircles at 2:21 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think in the German cultural context these thought patterns are partly perhaps related to a need to classify, to sort into boxes, and a very strong "us/them" national-ethnic (and don't start me on how nationality and ethnicity are assumed to be one and the same) mentality that pervades the culture. Explaining the concept of "othering" just gets blank looks. There is also a tendency to express David Brent-level attitudes - if you're not making a sweeping "negative" generalisation about a group it's not racism - I have literally heard "natural sense of rhythm" stuff from people who would identify as left/radical left/antifa.
But it's 2016 not 1946. Bugger "intent" or "ignorance" as an excuse.
posted by runincircles at 2:21 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Reminds me of the time Boris Becker (tennis) married a German poc. "Couldn't he have found a real German girl?"
posted by nostrada at 2:39 PM on November 16, 2016
posted by nostrada at 2:39 PM on November 16, 2016
Hey hey, a conversation about race and prejudice, and in Germany? Trust me, it's needed. Not necessarily because Germans are more racist than Americans (I've lived in both places for well over a decade, and I can't tell. Certainly there's racism in both, but when it comes to judging prevalence, anecdotes by themselves are about as useful as tweets from trump supporters). But until recently, outside the biggest cities, you could comfortably spend a decade without being confronted with the issue. So I like to see that there's a discussion happening.
> Germans have a reputation for being unusually blunt. I hope this does not come across as nationalistic prejudice; I am pretty sure many Germans agree with this characterization.
I'm German and FUCK YOU (no wait, yeah, I guess you have a point)
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:03 PM on November 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
> Germans have a reputation for being unusually blunt. I hope this does not come across as nationalistic prejudice; I am pretty sure many Germans agree with this characterization.
I'm German and FUCK YOU (no wait, yeah, I guess you have a point)
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:03 PM on November 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
When Metafileter collectively reduces me to a pile of smoldering ash, remember I went in with my eyes wide open as to the eventual results.
Why would you do that? Not asking in anger, just genuine puzzlement.
The above quote is abhorent and foolish, but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people.
I've been told that I have no culture. It hurts. I have a culture, but it's always ignored or pushed aside or misunderstood or said not to apply to me because I'm mixed-race. And then to append "because you come from slaves." Wow. The original sin of American civilization, the greatest source of pain and shame. A great wrong was done to your ancestors, and because of it, I feel free to insult you. And then he's standing there with that kind of neutral expression on his face, wearing a T-shirt with the words printed right on it. You have no culture because you come from slaves. You have no culture because you come from slaves. I mean, okay, what you say might be right, but I guess I'm having a hard time imagining an initial reaction to that photograph that's not so full of the weight and the pain of those words slamming into your chest that you actually have room to consider the intent of the person who spoke them.
Lets call it rascism-lite (TM).
This has been proposed many times, this idea of another word that doesn't sound as bad as "racism." I get it, but instead I'd gently suggest exploring what "racism" actually means. Does it say anything about intent? I think you'll find that it doesn't, or else it would be easy to stop replicating it with good intentions. I think what I mean when I say "racism" is different from what a lot of white people hear, and if I could get my meaning across properly by using a different word, maybe I would. But people tend to react with hostility to any recently coined term having to do with social justice (I'm thinking of everything from "trigger warning" to "cisgender" here), and I also think it's important to foreground the existence of everyday, mundane, well-intended racism. If you let white people define it as only the most egregious and shocking acts of violence and discrimination, you'll quickly find that nothing is racism, that there's a way to justify anything. (I mean I thought this quote was pretty outrageous, myself, but there's always someone who will explain why it's not racist.)
Anyway I think this is a really powerful project. I'm imagining a companion project with white people wearing shirts printed with their justifications and defenses for racism. Maybe the font would have to be smaller.
posted by sunset in snow country at 3:32 PM on November 16, 2016 [22 favorites]
Why would you do that? Not asking in anger, just genuine puzzlement.
The above quote is abhorent and foolish, but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people.
I've been told that I have no culture. It hurts. I have a culture, but it's always ignored or pushed aside or misunderstood or said not to apply to me because I'm mixed-race. And then to append "because you come from slaves." Wow. The original sin of American civilization, the greatest source of pain and shame. A great wrong was done to your ancestors, and because of it, I feel free to insult you. And then he's standing there with that kind of neutral expression on his face, wearing a T-shirt with the words printed right on it. You have no culture because you come from slaves. You have no culture because you come from slaves. I mean, okay, what you say might be right, but I guess I'm having a hard time imagining an initial reaction to that photograph that's not so full of the weight and the pain of those words slamming into your chest that you actually have room to consider the intent of the person who spoke them.
Lets call it rascism-lite (TM).
This has been proposed many times, this idea of another word that doesn't sound as bad as "racism." I get it, but instead I'd gently suggest exploring what "racism" actually means. Does it say anything about intent? I think you'll find that it doesn't, or else it would be easy to stop replicating it with good intentions. I think what I mean when I say "racism" is different from what a lot of white people hear, and if I could get my meaning across properly by using a different word, maybe I would. But people tend to react with hostility to any recently coined term having to do with social justice (I'm thinking of everything from "trigger warning" to "cisgender" here), and I also think it's important to foreground the existence of everyday, mundane, well-intended racism. If you let white people define it as only the most egregious and shocking acts of violence and discrimination, you'll quickly find that nothing is racism, that there's a way to justify anything. (I mean I thought this quote was pretty outrageous, myself, but there's always someone who will explain why it's not racist.)
Anyway I think this is a really powerful project. I'm imagining a companion project with white people wearing shirts printed with their justifications and defenses for racism. Maybe the font would have to be smaller.
posted by sunset in snow country at 3:32 PM on November 16, 2016 [22 favorites]
In my view, intention is irrelevant. Good, or innocent, intention is what people with privilege get to say. "I didn't know. I didn't mean anything bad. You're too sensitive..."
The focus should shift to consequences. It doesn't matter what your intentions are. If you caused harm, it's on you to figure out what you did, try to make amends, and stop doing it.
As I've gotten older (and I hope a little wiser), as a white male I find myself increasingly thinking about consequences of just my existence. By which I mean, through no work or merit of my own, I am afforded a privileged status in almost every part of my life. By the nature of privilege, my elevated status comes at the expense of other people who aren't white males, sometimes at horrifyingly high costs. That is not my intention, obviously, but I feel like it is my responsibility to not tolerate or accept this as okay. Instead I am actively trying to find ways to educate myself, to speak out, to work against privilege and entitlement.
I should point out that this is not by any means a new revelation for me, but more a matter of the older I get and the more I learn, the more I realize how far I have to go.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 3:59 PM on November 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
The focus should shift to consequences. It doesn't matter what your intentions are. If you caused harm, it's on you to figure out what you did, try to make amends, and stop doing it.
As I've gotten older (and I hope a little wiser), as a white male I find myself increasingly thinking about consequences of just my existence. By which I mean, through no work or merit of my own, I am afforded a privileged status in almost every part of my life. By the nature of privilege, my elevated status comes at the expense of other people who aren't white males, sometimes at horrifyingly high costs. That is not my intention, obviously, but I feel like it is my responsibility to not tolerate or accept this as okay. Instead I am actively trying to find ways to educate myself, to speak out, to work against privilege and entitlement.
I should point out that this is not by any means a new revelation for me, but more a matter of the older I get and the more I learn, the more I realize how far I have to go.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 3:59 PM on November 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Most of these seem to stem from ignorance, rather than rascism...
The most naive, shallow, dictionary-definition notion of racism is "prejudice or discrimination based upon race" and statements like these absolutely qualify. Any statement of the form "I see your skin is color X, therefore you must be/do/think/know Y" qualifies.
posted by Western Infidels at 4:01 PM on November 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
The most naive, shallow, dictionary-definition notion of racism is "prejudice or discrimination based upon race" and statements like these absolutely qualify. Any statement of the form "I see your skin is color X, therefore you must be/do/think/know Y" qualifies.
posted by Western Infidels at 4:01 PM on November 16, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh, is this the one where I tell my favorite German ethnic joke? Okay, here goes:
"What's the difference between a Turk and a Saxon?"
(Saxons being inhabitants of the former East Germany, around Dresden and Leipzig.)
"The Turk speaks good German, pays his taxes, and has a job."
In conclusion, Berlin is and isn't a weird place for this to happen. It's not only the most cosmopolitan place in Germany, but probably in Europe. EVERYBODY under 40 is from somewhere else, if only somewhere else in Germany.
Meanwhile, in record shops and the CD section in Saturn, rap and R&B are filed under "Black Music". I've tried asking where the "White Music" section is (you know, where they keep the Skrewdriver and the Heino), but no luck yet.
Not all forms of progress move in parallel. Gay clubs, to cite an example from the article, are notorious the world over for barring POC from even entering.
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 4:02 PM on November 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
"What's the difference between a Turk and a Saxon?"
(Saxons being inhabitants of the former East Germany, around Dresden and Leipzig.)
"The Turk speaks good German, pays his taxes, and has a job."
In conclusion, Berlin is and isn't a weird place for this to happen. It's not only the most cosmopolitan place in Germany, but probably in Europe. EVERYBODY under 40 is from somewhere else, if only somewhere else in Germany.
Meanwhile, in record shops and the CD section in Saturn, rap and R&B are filed under "Black Music". I've tried asking where the "White Music" section is (you know, where they keep the Skrewdriver and the Heino), but no luck yet.
Not all forms of progress move in parallel. Gay clubs, to cite an example from the article, are notorious the world over for barring POC from even entering.
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 4:02 PM on November 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, in record shops and the CD section in Saturn, rap and R&B are filed under "Black Music". I've tried asking where the "White Music" section is (you know, where they keep the Skrewdriver and the Heino), but no luck yet.
Up until around 1988 or so, Billboard used to classify soul, R&B, rap, funk and such in the “Black Singles” chart.
posted by acb at 4:10 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Up until around 1988 or so, Billboard used to classify soul, R&B, rap, funk and such in the “Black Singles” chart.
posted by acb at 4:10 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
"some of the old people are still f#%&ing Nazis"
If it were only some of the old people.
(also, we're all adults, I think you can say "fucking nazis" here, because, you know, fuck them)
posted by effbot at 5:18 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
If it were only some of the old people.
(also, we're all adults, I think you can say "fucking nazis" here, because, you know, fuck them)
posted by effbot at 5:18 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Over the years, I've come to notice that "racism" comes in both "malevolent" and "oblivious" forms, and yet the former is worse than the latter only in intention, rather than in effect.
To the pedestrian who gets hit by a car, it doesn't matter all that much whether it was because the driver had malicious intent or was just distracted by their phone.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:21 PM on November 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
To the pedestrian who gets hit by a car, it doesn't matter all that much whether it was because the driver had malicious intent or was just distracted by their phone.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:21 PM on November 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
To the pedestrian who gets hit by a car, it doesn't matter all that much whether it was because the driver had malicious intent or was just distracted by their phone.
It does matter to pedestrians as a group, though. One category of drivers can be reached through information campaigns, etc. The other won't listen, and will keep hitting pedestrians.
posted by effbot at 5:35 PM on November 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
It does matter to pedestrians as a group, though. One category of drivers can be reached through information campaigns, etc. The other won't listen, and will keep hitting pedestrians.
posted by effbot at 5:35 PM on November 16, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm so glad this link could spark important dialogues around Is Racism Real and Is The Person Of Color Correct That He Experiences Racism, I'm sure there was nothing more interesting to discuss here and why would you want to anyway when there are first principles to joyfully spring forth from
posted by zokni at 5:49 PM on November 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by zokni at 5:49 PM on November 16, 2016 [10 favorites]
In my view, intention is irrelevant. [...] The focus should shift to consequences.
Because consequentialism has an awesome track record. You showed in your own damn comment how easy it is to handwave them away, anyhow - 'you're too sensitive'. Racists don't care about consequences. 'Oh god I've gone too far I'll change my ways' is something no racist has said anywhere, ever.
Intention is everything. Good people who are honestly ignorant will be horrified that they've caused offense (even if they're initially defensive, because that's a perfectly natural human reaction to embarrassment and shame); will apologise; will learn; will educate others; and they won't do it again.
Racists won't do any of that.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 5:58 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Because consequentialism has an awesome track record. You showed in your own damn comment how easy it is to handwave them away, anyhow - 'you're too sensitive'. Racists don't care about consequences. 'Oh god I've gone too far I'll change my ways' is something no racist has said anywhere, ever.
Intention is everything. Good people who are honestly ignorant will be horrified that they've caused offense (even if they're initially defensive, because that's a perfectly natural human reaction to embarrassment and shame); will apologise; will learn; will educate others; and they won't do it again.
Racists won't do any of that.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 5:58 PM on November 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
> If it were only some of the old people.
effbot, make your point precisely please. Are all Germans Nazis? Only the old ones? Some of the young ones in addition to some of the old ones? For fuck's sake. I'm taking this shit seriously, just as I take my German friends seriously right now when they ask me if all Americans have gone insane.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 6:11 PM on November 16, 2016
effbot, make your point precisely please. Are all Germans Nazis? Only the old ones? Some of the young ones in addition to some of the old ones? For fuck's sake. I'm taking this shit seriously, just as I take my German friends seriously right now when they ask me if all Americans have gone insane.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 6:11 PM on November 16, 2016
I don't think that was ambiguous. Some young Germans are Nazis. And so they are,
posted by maxsparber at 6:58 PM on November 16, 2016
posted by maxsparber at 6:58 PM on November 16, 2016
OK, good talk maxsparber
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 7:31 PM on November 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 7:31 PM on November 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wrote this years ago, but there has been a shift in recent years in people's opinion to the idea that what matters most is what's inside.
I don't think this is remotely recent. In fact, I'm more inclined to think that, recently, more and more people have come to realize (or say out loud) that (if you will) racism, as many other things, is by works, not faith.
posted by kenko at 8:50 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think this is remotely recent. In fact, I'm more inclined to think that, recently, more and more people have come to realize (or say out loud) that (if you will) racism, as many other things, is by works, not faith.
posted by kenko at 8:50 PM on November 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
Those who know me know that I'm not of any way racist!
When you can have someone publicly refer to Michelle Obama as an "Ape in heels" and then turn around and claim they're not racist it becomes clear that letting folks have their own personal definitions of racism is a terrible idea.
posted by funkiwan at 9:22 PM on November 16, 2016 [17 favorites]
When you can have someone publicly refer to Michelle Obama as an "Ape in heels" and then turn around and claim they're not racist it becomes clear that letting folks have their own personal definitions of racism is a terrible idea.
posted by funkiwan at 9:22 PM on November 16, 2016 [17 favorites]
Racism vs. Racism-lite is one of those "well there's black people, who are cool, and then there are niggers, who are bad," hairsplitting attempts, where the distinction actually emphasizes in the speaker what they're trying to downplay. It's a category mistake.
Think of it this way: why wasn't it, "man, a lot of racists are stupid!"
posted by rhizome at 11:43 PM on November 16, 2016
Think of it this way: why wasn't it, "man, a lot of racists are stupid!"
posted by rhizome at 11:43 PM on November 16, 2016
The above quote is abhorent and foolish, but conceiveably stems from a lack of understanding, rather than a virulent Stormfront-esque hatered of black people
The quote in question is the belief that all black people are drug dealers. That is just naked racism. It does not stem from the lack of knowledge of the fact that, oh, actually, statistically not all black people are criminals.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:08 AM on November 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The quote in question is the belief that all black people are drug dealers. That is just naked racism. It does not stem from the lack of knowledge of the fact that, oh, actually, statistically not all black people are criminals.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:08 AM on November 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The quote in question is the belief that all black people are drug dealers.
The quote: "“And you have no culture because you come from slaves.”
She also said that America as a whole has no culture because too young, which is pretty damn funny.
posted by IndigoJones at 8:05 AM on November 17, 2016
The quote: "“And you have no culture because you come from slaves.”
She also said that America as a whole has no culture because too young, which is pretty damn funny.
posted by IndigoJones at 8:05 AM on November 17, 2016
Racism vs. Racism-lite is one of those "well there's black people, who are cool, and then there are niggers, who are bad," hairsplitting attempts, where the distinction actually emphasizes in the speaker what they're trying to downplay. It's a category mistake.
Do The Right Thing? "Who's your favorite baseball player?"
posted by fixedgear at 12:32 PM on November 17, 2016
Do The Right Thing? "Who's your favorite baseball player?"
posted by fixedgear at 12:32 PM on November 17, 2016
I am a visible minority Canadian living in Berlin. A lot of these racist comments do stem from ignorance, because Germany simply doesn't have the melting pot immigration culture that US/Canada has. That said, racism stemming from ignorance is still racism, which is why this artist has chosen to inform and educate with this project!
These cartoonish stereotypes come from limited exposure, especially When it comes to black men. Even in Berlin, I can go for days without seeing a single black person. Germans see drug dealers in the park who are black, then they automatically assume if you're black then you're selling drugs. I've got it easier as an Asian female, but even I have gotten shocking "Ching Chong" noises while pulling slanty eyes from kids and teenagers here. Pure ignorance.
The "where are you from" comments are a little more grey for me, because so many people living in Berlin are not from Berlin. Especiallly in young, international circles that the artist travels in. This is standard small talk iin Berlin without the connotations it might have in US/Canada. Once I asked a Turkish-German colleague where she was from (meaning where in Germany she was from), and she preemptively answered that she was from X-neighborhood in Berlin, but that her parents were from Turkey. I was horrified that she thought I'd asked her where was she REALLY from. Im a lot more careful with this question now.
Finally, yes Germans are blunt and a lot can be lost in translation. In some way I appreciate knowing exactly what people are thinking. It lets me counter those beliefs if needed, instead of just guessing what's simmering below the surface.
posted by exquisite_deluxe at 1:28 PM on November 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
These cartoonish stereotypes come from limited exposure, especially When it comes to black men. Even in Berlin, I can go for days without seeing a single black person. Germans see drug dealers in the park who are black, then they automatically assume if you're black then you're selling drugs. I've got it easier as an Asian female, but even I have gotten shocking "Ching Chong" noises while pulling slanty eyes from kids and teenagers here. Pure ignorance.
The "where are you from" comments are a little more grey for me, because so many people living in Berlin are not from Berlin. Especiallly in young, international circles that the artist travels in. This is standard small talk iin Berlin without the connotations it might have in US/Canada. Once I asked a Turkish-German colleague where she was from (meaning where in Germany she was from), and she preemptively answered that she was from X-neighborhood in Berlin, but that her parents were from Turkey. I was horrified that she thought I'd asked her where was she REALLY from. Im a lot more careful with this question now.
Finally, yes Germans are blunt and a lot can be lost in translation. In some way I appreciate knowing exactly what people are thinking. It lets me counter those beliefs if needed, instead of just guessing what's simmering below the surface.
posted by exquisite_deluxe at 1:28 PM on November 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
She also said that America as a whole has no culture because too young, which is pretty damn funny.
Well, the German word Kultur has different connotations than the English word “culture”; in German, Kultur is implicitly high culture, and unless otherwise specified, excludes popular culture. Perhaps what she meant is “who is America's Goethe/Beethoven”?
posted by acb at 4:25 AM on November 18, 2016
Well, the German word Kultur has different connotations than the English word “culture”; in German, Kultur is implicitly high culture, and unless otherwise specified, excludes popular culture. Perhaps what she meant is “who is America's Goethe/Beethoven”?
posted by acb at 4:25 AM on November 18, 2016
Mark Twain and Scott Joplin.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:17 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 8:17 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
She also said that America as a whole has no culture because too young, which is pretty damn funny.
I've heard tales of Germans in Canada taking their kids out of German language classes because the teacher was Bavarian and didn't speak proper Hochdeutsch, so, you know, the German opinion of what is and isn't appropriate culture apparently runs pretty deep.
posted by GuyZero at 10:18 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've heard tales of Germans in Canada taking their kids out of German language classes because the teacher was Bavarian and didn't speak proper Hochdeutsch, so, you know, the German opinion of what is and isn't appropriate culture apparently runs pretty deep.
posted by GuyZero at 10:18 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Although I think I may have my German dialects mixed up looking at Wikipedia? Perhaps this anecdote has been lost in translation.
posted by GuyZero at 10:21 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by GuyZero at 10:21 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, you probably have it right. Most German-language schools in Canada are in the Prairies, where most of the German-speakers are Hutterites, or the children of lapsed Hutterites, or whatever. Hutterites speak a weird Bavarian dialect. (Which is technically Hochdeutsch, but is definitely not the kind of Hochdeutch that means "Standard German.")
(In Ontario, it's mostly Mennonites, who speak a totally different Low German dialect.)
posted by Sys Rq at 11:13 AM on November 18, 2016
(In Ontario, it's mostly Mennonites, who speak a totally different Low German dialect.)
posted by Sys Rq at 11:13 AM on November 18, 2016
(I've heard the exact same story about French immigrants in Quebec, incidentally.)
posted by Sys Rq at 11:15 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 11:15 AM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I, a latin american jewish person whose grandparents were born in and fled from the Warsaw Ghetto, was once in Germany working on an exhibition. At the end of a grueling month working straight through with no weekends off, one of my bosses, the German one, asks how we'd liked Germany.
I put on my best straight face and said I was especially impressed by how they'd managed to camouflage the training camps where they were preparing their youths for world domination.
He took a beat, then perfectly seriously started talking about how there where still people who believed in that sort of thing, etc.
Not sure what it has to with this, but something uber alles, anyway.
posted by signal at 12:52 PM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I put on my best straight face and said I was especially impressed by how they'd managed to camouflage the training camps where they were preparing their youths for world domination.
He took a beat, then perfectly seriously started talking about how there where still people who believed in that sort of thing, etc.
Not sure what it has to with this, but something uber alles, anyway.
posted by signal at 12:52 PM on November 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
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From a preschool teacher. That just might be the most racist thing I've ever heard.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:41 AM on November 16, 2016 [14 favorites]