Better living through... biohacking?
January 6, 2017 4:30 AM Subscribe
Micro-dosing: The Drug Habit Your Boss Is Gonna Love The small brown vial came to me via a chain of custody that shall not be discussed and with the assurance that the clear liquid therein was, according to some guy who told the guy who gave it to me, a precise dilution of LSD. If the stories I'd heard were true, taking a tiny bit of it, a micro-dose, had the potential to make my workday more productive than ever... I squeezed the dropper gently, putting a clear drop into a mug of water on my desk, and drank it all in a single gulp. Then I began to worry that I was about to trip balls.
Even creating expensive pee can be cutting edge, folks! I mean, not when my grammy takes her vitamins, but definitely when a young white male biohacks!
posted by selfnoise at 4:46 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 4:46 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
I totally agree with selfnoise's assessment of "no, when you do it, X, when I do it, Y". But I think the larger conversation about drug assisted labor being an increasing part of economic viability for folks could use more daylight.
It's not new (see Shirky's gin carts) and it's not rare (ask a truck driver), but the idea that to keep your bread from the robots you basically need to 'trip a little balls', well, that's kinda depressing and scary.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 5:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [37 favorites]
It's not new (see Shirky's gin carts) and it's not rare (ask a truck driver), but the idea that to keep your bread from the robots you basically need to 'trip a little balls', well, that's kinda depressing and scary.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 5:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [37 favorites]
Can't these idiots just drink coffee like everyone else? Really, LSD? And deliberately hooking oneself on nicotine seems like the stupidest thing ever.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 5:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder! Work more! Work harder!
posted by Thorzdad at 5:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [58 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [58 favorites]
I'm going to preface this with saying I have yet to read an article that I know will probably irritate the shit out of me, but:
- microdosing is not just useful for productivity; it can be super useful for PTSD and working through trauma (possibly for the same reasons it can help make you productive? Who knows!)
- no it is not like a cup of goddamn coffee and those are not substitute goods
- it's not just about keeping up with the robots, it's about doing so with far less stress
- I am certain these people are going to ruin it somehow
posted by schadenfrau at 5:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [61 favorites]
- microdosing is not just useful for productivity; it can be super useful for PTSD and working through trauma (possibly for the same reasons it can help make you productive? Who knows!)
- no it is not like a cup of goddamn coffee and those are not substitute goods
- it's not just about keeping up with the robots, it's about doing so with far less stress
- I am certain these people are going to ruin it somehow
posted by schadenfrau at 5:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [61 favorites]
There is a mild stimulant in every office breakroom. Yours would be the exception if it's not there, at least in my experience. It's a barrel of really crap instant coffee.
Work more! Work harder!
No one cares if you take a mild stimulant like coffee at work. A mild depressant like pot will get you dismissed immediately and escorted away like a villain.
posted by adept256 at 5:11 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Work more! Work harder!
No one cares if you take a mild stimulant like coffee at work. A mild depressant like pot will get you dismissed immediately and escorted away like a villain.
posted by adept256 at 5:11 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
- microdosing is not just useful for productivity
There's a good reason real science insists on double blinded randomized controlled trials.
Without them, suckers will happily buy any old snakeoil the medicine show tells them will cure their spiritual, physical and psychological impotence
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:18 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
There's a good reason real science insists on double blinded randomized controlled trials.
Without them, suckers will happily buy any old snakeoil the medicine show tells them will cure their spiritual, physical and psychological impotence
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:18 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Equating coffee and LSD would indeed be very silly. It's still a work-safe drug, which may happen to make you more productive. Or less.
posted by adept256 at 5:23 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by adept256 at 5:23 AM on January 6, 2017
pot will get you dismissed immediately
At a lot of silicon valley companies, the closest thing to a drug testing policy was "we damn well know not to test anyone." I mean, you couldn't hotbox the conference room, but if you kept your drug use behind a veneer of plausible deniability, management knew to look away.
(not all companies were like this, but a lot were)
posted by ryanrs at 5:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
At a lot of silicon valley companies, the closest thing to a drug testing policy was "we damn well know not to test anyone." I mean, you couldn't hotbox the conference room, but if you kept your drug use behind a veneer of plausible deniability, management knew to look away.
(not all companies were like this, but a lot were)
posted by ryanrs at 5:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
So when is meth finally going to replace coffee in the Silicon Valley break room?
posted by oceanjesse at 5:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 5:28 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ooh, excuse to link to the relevant and fun Reply All episode where they experiment with micro-dosing!
posted by aka burlap at 5:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by aka burlap at 5:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
So when is meth finally going to replace coffee in the Silicon Valley break room?
How do you think the Internet of Things happened?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [36 favorites]
How do you think the Internet of Things happened?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [36 favorites]
- microdosing is not just useful for productivity
There's a good reason real science insists on double blinded randomized controlled trials.
Without them, suckers will happily buy any old snakeoil the medicine show tells them will cure their spiritual, physical and psychological impotence
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:18 AM on January 6 [1 favorite +] [!]
How nastily condescending! God forbid you should google "psychedelics PTSD" or think for even thirty seconds about the immense difficulty in getting those double blind studies, given the political climate surrounding psychedelic drugs of any sort, or, most of all, god forbid you should trust my actual personal experience of my actual life!
Good thing I don't listen to people who call me a sucker (duped by that powerful, money-grubbing psychedelic lobby, I suppose). Also, my trauma specialist thinks you're full of shit.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [53 favorites]
There's a good reason real science insists on double blinded randomized controlled trials.
Without them, suckers will happily buy any old snakeoil the medicine show tells them will cure their spiritual, physical and psychological impotence
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:18 AM on January 6 [1 favorite +] [!]
How nastily condescending! God forbid you should google "psychedelics PTSD" or think for even thirty seconds about the immense difficulty in getting those double blind studies, given the political climate surrounding psychedelic drugs of any sort, or, most of all, god forbid you should trust my actual personal experience of my actual life!
Good thing I don't listen to people who call me a sucker (duped by that powerful, money-grubbing psychedelic lobby, I suppose). Also, my trauma specialist thinks you're full of shit.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [53 favorites]
So when is meth finally going to replace coffee in the Silicon Valley break room?
Meth is too lower class (unless it's blue), Adderall and coke is where it's at.
posted by Candleman at 5:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Meth is too lower class (unless it's blue), Adderall and coke is where it's at.
posted by Candleman at 5:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
(I happened to be on the phone with her. That is a direct quote.)
posted by schadenfrau at 5:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 5:45 AM on January 6, 2017 [13 favorites]
Treating PTSD with psychedelics is a hell of a lot different than taking tiny doses so you get a decent raise while sitting at a desk. Let's not act like they're saving the world by using themselves as guinea pigs. I could just as easily point out the known link between using drugs like pot and LSD in one's late teens and early 20s, and the resulting rise in active mental illness in people who only had a latent tendency. In fact, I'd say that a big part of the problem is the knee-jerk reaction to treat ideas like these as though they're evidence of inherent genius and intelligent intention, because some 20-something white guy did it. No, this is a stupid kid messing around with drugs, who has no idea what he's doing or how it will impact him long-term (or even short-term). Forget the legality question. How is this ANY different than people who wake-and-bake before work because it supposedly makes them a better person? It's not like this is legitimate research being tested against a control.
posted by Autumnheart at 5:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 5:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
How is this ANY different than people who wake-and-bake before work because it supposedly makes them a better person?
Anyone who wakes up and bakes cookies to bring into the office is inherently a better person than me.
posted by Apoch at 5:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [55 favorites]
Anyone who wakes up and bakes cookies to bring into the office is inherently a better person than me.
posted by Apoch at 5:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [55 favorites]
"Hyper-metabolism", eh?
If that's the best poppycock they can creativify while micro-tripping I submit there will be no revolution in the buzzword industry.
posted by Construction Concern at 5:57 AM on January 6, 2017
If that's the best poppycock they can creativify while micro-tripping I submit there will be no revolution in the buzzword industry.
posted by Construction Concern at 5:57 AM on January 6, 2017
In fact, I'd say that a big part of the problem is the knee-jerk reaction to treat ideas like these as though they're evidence of inherent genius and intelligent intention, because some 20-something white guy did it.
20-something black guy tried it, but he can't post on gq because he's in san quentin.
posted by adept256 at 5:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
20-something black guy tried it, but he can't post on gq because he's in san quentin.
posted by adept256 at 5:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [23 favorites]
It's a shame Philip K. Dick died without seeing his fiction brought to life.
posted by at by at 6:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by at by at 6:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
add this to the list of topics that MetaFilter Does Not Do Well.
posted by blue t-shirt at 6:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [35 favorites]
posted by blue t-shirt at 6:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [35 favorites]
Treating PTSD with psychedelics is a hell of a lot different than taking tiny doses so you get a decent raise while sitting at a desk
Maybe. Except also maybe not. People self medicate all the time, sometimes without realizing that that's what they're doing, a lot of times ineffectively, and a lot of times destructively. But the same can certainly be said for prescribed medication. (For me, I've been seriously fucked up by what I later learned was fairly casual or careless prescriptions from MDs. When I've self medicated with illicit substances, I've been a hell of a lot more cautious, and gotten better results. YMMV.)
ANYWAY. I don't care about this particular white dude, honestly. But I will note that many people choose to avoid the stigma of trauma or whatever the hell else and still find things that will help them. And it is absolutely true that no one knows what long term use of psychedelics does, because again, we can't study shit. No one knows what the risks are. As is true with most of life.
But I tend to trust people's own accounts of their own experiences, health, and lives, because I am not an asshole.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Maybe. Except also maybe not. People self medicate all the time, sometimes without realizing that that's what they're doing, a lot of times ineffectively, and a lot of times destructively. But the same can certainly be said for prescribed medication. (For me, I've been seriously fucked up by what I later learned was fairly casual or careless prescriptions from MDs. When I've self medicated with illicit substances, I've been a hell of a lot more cautious, and gotten better results. YMMV.)
ANYWAY. I don't care about this particular white dude, honestly. But I will note that many people choose to avoid the stigma of trauma or whatever the hell else and still find things that will help them. And it is absolutely true that no one knows what long term use of psychedelics does, because again, we can't study shit. No one knows what the risks are. As is true with most of life.
But I tend to trust people's own accounts of their own experiences, health, and lives, because I am not an asshole.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:03 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
add this to the list of topics that MetaFilter Does Not Do Well.
We're working too hard. There's DMT in the break room!
posted by thelonius at 6:12 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
We're working too hard. There's DMT in the break room!
posted by thelonius at 6:12 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
part of the problem is the knee-jerk reaction to treat ideas like these as though they're evidence of inherent genius and intelligent intention, because some 20-something white guy did it.
People are going to experiment. That's not news. It's been happening for a long, long time. I thought the article was well written with both personal anecdotes from the writer and some background about the topic. I didn't get the impression that the article was describing the holy grail of work productivity.
It's silicon valley, everything that gains traction there is scrutinized under a microscope.
posted by INFJ at 6:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
People are going to experiment. That's not news. It's been happening for a long, long time. I thought the article was well written with both personal anecdotes from the writer and some background about the topic. I didn't get the impression that the article was describing the holy grail of work productivity.
It's silicon valley, everything that gains traction there is scrutinized under a microscope.
posted by INFJ at 6:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think there are competing discussions: one about people using psychedelics to self-medicate for conditions that are actually causing them difficulty; and one about people shoving things into their bodies so they can work harder or longer or "better," whatever that means. There's some overlap in the groups, for sure, but there's a vast chasm (or at least a middling gorge) between the techdude who's dealing with chronic fatigue and the guy who's eating modafinil because his kid kept him up all night.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by uncleozzy at 6:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Capitalism will not be satisfied until every pleasurable or spiritual human experience is yoked into its service.
posted by indubitable at 6:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [36 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 6:16 AM on January 6, 2017 [36 favorites]
How is this ANY different than people who wake-and-bake before work because it supposedly makes them a better person? It's not like this is legitimate research being tested against a control.
Also this is...highly suspect to me. I take it you have only known one type of wake and baker? The type with a substance abuse problem?
I've know them too! I've also known people who did function much better with pot. I didn't follow them for a decade to see long term effects, but in the short term the change from "gibberish twitchy anxious mess" to "functioning member of society who is now able to relate to others and support themselves" has been pretty dramatic.
I've also known people -- the vast, complicated majority of them -- who fell somewhere in the middle, where maybe they started using some form of drug because it helped them with X and then kept using it because they also didn't want to face Y (or whatever).
Literally nothing is as simple as you've described it. You're projecting your unsupported beliefs at the expense of actual people living their lives the best they can. That's...not great.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:17 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Also this is...highly suspect to me. I take it you have only known one type of wake and baker? The type with a substance abuse problem?
I've know them too! I've also known people who did function much better with pot. I didn't follow them for a decade to see long term effects, but in the short term the change from "gibberish twitchy anxious mess" to "functioning member of society who is now able to relate to others and support themselves" has been pretty dramatic.
I've also known people -- the vast, complicated majority of them -- who fell somewhere in the middle, where maybe they started using some form of drug because it helped them with X and then kept using it because they also didn't want to face Y (or whatever).
Literally nothing is as simple as you've described it. You're projecting your unsupported beliefs at the expense of actual people living their lives the best they can. That's...not great.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:17 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Again, it is very disingenuous, to a ridiculous degree, to bring up treating trauma and other legitimate medical conditions, and link it to a bunch of people on Reddit taking drugs just to see what happens.
I mean, I have ADHD. I was diagnosed last year as an adult, and one of the things that twigged me toward getting screened was that I took up coffee-drinking and noticed that I could focus better. But I went to a doctor and got tested. I didn't just say to myself, "Hey, coffee makes me more productive, so next I'll try some cocaine. But only a little teeny bit at first."
It just blows my mind that people don't see this for the absurdly stupid and risky behavior that it is. I mean hey, I bet Reddit has a forum on self-trepanation, but I'm not about to go buy a drill bit and call myself a "biohacker".
posted by Autumnheart at 6:20 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
I mean, I have ADHD. I was diagnosed last year as an adult, and one of the things that twigged me toward getting screened was that I took up coffee-drinking and noticed that I could focus better. But I went to a doctor and got tested. I didn't just say to myself, "Hey, coffee makes me more productive, so next I'll try some cocaine. But only a little teeny bit at first."
It just blows my mind that people don't see this for the absurdly stupid and risky behavior that it is. I mean hey, I bet Reddit has a forum on self-trepanation, but I'm not about to go buy a drill bit and call myself a "biohacker".
posted by Autumnheart at 6:20 AM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
Disclaimer: No degree in pharmacology, no personal experience in LSD alteration, and no relationship to anyone dealing with significant drug addiction.
The only thing I regret is that there aren't much more serious studies of these and other drugs, in whatever doses. Banishing LSD and other chemicals to the land of We-Don't-Touch-Those just seems like an intellectual disservice. Put LSD through the rigor* of approving an anti-cholesterol agent or anti-depressant, and let the data chips fall where they may. Regulate it and tax it like Lipitor and Prozac.
Admittedly, I'm fascinated by stories of ketamine and LSD and their potential peculiar (but maybe psychosomatic?) effects. Why can't we give these chems their due in court and have some kind of final say?
As for me, I'll continuing installing java through cups of coffee to stave off allergies, mitigate depression, and, well, give me something to enjoy before 8am.
*presumed, though don't get me started...
posted by Conway at 6:22 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
The only thing I regret is that there aren't much more serious studies of these and other drugs, in whatever doses. Banishing LSD and other chemicals to the land of We-Don't-Touch-Those just seems like an intellectual disservice. Put LSD through the rigor* of approving an anti-cholesterol agent or anti-depressant, and let the data chips fall where they may. Regulate it and tax it like Lipitor and Prozac.
Admittedly, I'm fascinated by stories of ketamine and LSD and their potential peculiar (but maybe psychosomatic?) effects. Why can't we give these chems their due in court and have some kind of final say?
As for me, I'll continuing installing java through cups of coffee to stave off allergies, mitigate depression, and, well, give me something to enjoy before 8am.
*presumed, though don't get me started...
posted by Conway at 6:22 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, regarding all the snark, I have a feeling that if this was an article written by an artist talking about how microdosing improved their work, there'd be a whole lot more approving nods here.
However, the article is kind of a mess and all over the place, so if this is one of the pieces the author wrote while on LSD, perhaps it's a failed experiment.
posted by Candleman at 6:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
However, the article is kind of a mess and all over the place, so if this is one of the pieces the author wrote while on LSD, perhaps it's a failed experiment.
posted by Candleman at 6:23 AM on January 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
In fact, I'd say that a big part of the problem is the knee-jerk reaction to treat ideas like these as though they're evidence of inherent genius and intelligent intention, because some 20-something white guy did it.
This. I would also like to note the self-congratulatory misuse of the word 'hacking'.
posted by Dashy at 6:23 AM on January 6, 2017
This. I would also like to note the self-congratulatory misuse of the word 'hacking'.
posted by Dashy at 6:23 AM on January 6, 2017
Oh yeah, the idea of creatives using drugs is really groundbreaking. /s We have a whole database of musicians, actors and other artists whose drug use directly or indirectly killed them.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:27 AM on January 6, 2017
posted by Autumnheart at 6:27 AM on January 6, 2017
This. I would also like to note the self-congratulatory misuse of the word 'hacking'.
A jawdropping feat of breadcraft!
How is this not a username yet?
posted by percor at 6:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
A jawdropping feat of breadcraft!
How is this not a username yet?
posted by percor at 6:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Capitalism will not be satisfied until every pleasurable or spiritual human experience is yoked into its service.
That makes capitalism sound autonomous. Capitalism abhors money being left on the table, just by its basic logic, and especially at an historical moment when capital accumulation by dispossession is as popular and profitable as it is in the developed West right now; I think it's more a question of people discovering new piles of money being left on new tables, so to speak, than ensuring that all pleasurable or spiritual experiences serve it per se. Nothing personal.
posted by clockzero at 6:30 AM on January 6, 2017
That makes capitalism sound autonomous. Capitalism abhors money being left on the table, just by its basic logic, and especially at an historical moment when capital accumulation by dispossession is as popular and profitable as it is in the developed West right now; I think it's more a question of people discovering new piles of money being left on new tables, so to speak, than ensuring that all pleasurable or spiritual experiences serve it per se. Nothing personal.
posted by clockzero at 6:30 AM on January 6, 2017
There's been some "Reddit, am I rite?" attitudes thrown around here and I wish we would knock it off. It's no longer the sordid solace of internet trolls. It's simply a amalgamation of humanity.. and since humanity has both good and bad, so does Reddit.
posted by INFJ at 6:31 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by INFJ at 6:31 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
but there's a vast chasm (or at least a middling gorge) between the techdude who's dealing with chronic fatigue and the guy who's eating modafinil because his kid kept him up all night.
Wait, which of these am I supposed to sympathize with and which am I supposed to think is terrible?
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Wait, which of these am I supposed to sympathize with and which am I supposed to think is terrible?
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:32 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
I'll stick with my prescription for ADD medication and having a job that isn't a toxic, productivity-at-all-costs hellscape, thank you.
Also Previously on FanFare
posted by SansPoint at 6:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also Previously on FanFare
posted by SansPoint at 6:33 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've thought and read a lot about it, and I have a hunch that if reasonably strong psychedelics and dissoaciatives were available via a legal, trustworthy process in my early adulthood, my life might have turned out very differently and for the better. So that's disappointing.
posted by penduluum at 6:37 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by penduluum at 6:37 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am someone who has never used illegal drugs in my life and yet I'm blown away by the way that LSD has been equated to weed, meth, and coke in this thread alone. The fact that we seem incapable of considering such different chemicals on their own merits/demerits instead of lumping them together is probably a huge part of the ethos that's blocked them all from real, rigorous study. Just because some substance gives a pleasurable feeling doesn't mean it can't also be medicine.
posted by R a c h e l at 6:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
posted by R a c h e l at 6:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
Wait, which of these am I supposed to sympathize with and which am I supposed to think is terrible?
Yeah, that was maybe not the best way to put it. But I do think there are competing stories here, although maybe that's not the one. I have a visceral ick response to the willy-nilly use of psychedelics and RCs in the service of working "harder" or "better," though, and I'm not sure of the best way to articulate it.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:41 AM on January 6, 2017
Yeah, that was maybe not the best way to put it. But I do think there are competing stories here, although maybe that's not the one. I have a visceral ick response to the willy-nilly use of psychedelics and RCs in the service of working "harder" or "better," though, and I'm not sure of the best way to articulate it.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:41 AM on January 6, 2017
As with most things in the US, the reason we have not had extensive clinical testing of most hallucinogens is based on racism and oligarchy.
Back in the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of interest in how these drugs could be used to treat trauma. Unfortunately, a lot of people in power thought it would be a lot MORE useful to make using them super-illegal and “dangerous” as a way to make criminals out of two groups: 1) PoC and 2) political enemies of the regime in power (protesters, people who believed in peace, people who didn’t love capitalism). (Obviously there was also a fair amount of crossover between those groups.) As a result, the drugs were all classified as HORRIBLY dangerous and the majority of IRB requests to study them in clinical settings were refused as a matter of course. Also, if the federal government decides not to study something, that means no NIH funding, which drastically reduces the likelihood of getting major, long-term studies going.
Some gains have been made since the 90s, but the reasons these drugs have not been studied is more about politics than medicine. Federal fear of subversive types = people with PTSD not getting the treatment they needed for decades.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
Back in the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of interest in how these drugs could be used to treat trauma. Unfortunately, a lot of people in power thought it would be a lot MORE useful to make using them super-illegal and “dangerous” as a way to make criminals out of two groups: 1) PoC and 2) political enemies of the regime in power (protesters, people who believed in peace, people who didn’t love capitalism). (Obviously there was also a fair amount of crossover between those groups.) As a result, the drugs were all classified as HORRIBLY dangerous and the majority of IRB requests to study them in clinical settings were refused as a matter of course. Also, if the federal government decides not to study something, that means no NIH funding, which drastically reduces the likelihood of getting major, long-term studies going.
Some gains have been made since the 90s, but the reasons these drugs have not been studied is more about politics than medicine. Federal fear of subversive types = people with PTSD not getting the treatment they needed for decades.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
I have that reaction to any kind of drug use (prescribed or otherwise) that is in service towards some external goal rather than the well being of the person taking the drug. Like giving reds to fighter pilots...same feeling.
I don't get that feeling when it's the patient's own reasonably informed decision to take a drug for that purpose. But when it's encouraged, systematized, or institutionalized by the medical establishment -- that is incredibly creepy and gross and wrong. I think to some extent the enthusiasm for microdosing for the purposes of ever more work pushes the same button for me, if it comes from a culture, rather than an individual.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't get that feeling when it's the patient's own reasonably informed decision to take a drug for that purpose. But when it's encouraged, systematized, or institutionalized by the medical establishment -- that is incredibly creepy and gross and wrong. I think to some extent the enthusiasm for microdosing for the purposes of ever more work pushes the same button for me, if it comes from a culture, rather than an individual.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:47 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
But I tend to trust people's own accounts of their own experiences, health, and lives, because I am not an asshole.People self-report very badly. Almost without exception.
I need to see a double blind study of this because my Mom makes very similar claims about putting quartz crystals in her shoes. And even though I care about her and respect her, I have doubts.
And it's not really your experience it would prove, but that that experience is linked to the drug, and therefore that I might have a similar experience. Your experience is not open to debate, because I am not an asshole either.
posted by Horkus at 6:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [26 favorites]
Also, regarding all the snark, I have a feeling that if this was an article written by an artist talking about how microdosing improved their work, there'd be a whole lot more approving nods here.As people have noted above, there's not much new about the idea, right or wrong, that mind-altering substances help artists create better art. But I think that's different from the idea that mind-altering substances help people be better workers, because being an artist is a choice. For most of us, being a worker isn't. If I get fired from my job in favor of someone who can work much longer and harder than I can, I am not going to be able to eat or keep a roof over my head. And we're talking about an article in which someone is quoted as saying “In five years, nootropics will just be a part of everyone's diet," so I think the stakes here are a little higher than when we're talking about artists.
The Silicon-Valley tech-bro persecution complex is kind of goofy. You can't have it both ways: you can't constantly blather about how everything you do is going to change the world and then expect people not to ask what kind of world-altering changes you're trying to make.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
Yes, I am ridiculously intolerant of the idea that playing with your brain chemistry on an ad-hoc basis is a smart thing to do. It's not. And there are about a gazillion drug addicts killing themselves and/or ruining their lives, and the lives of their families, as pretty convincing evidence that it's a bad idea. Drugs are extremely beneficial in controlled circumstances. They are dangerous as hell in uncontrolled circumstances. Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 6:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
The story contains the seeds of why microdosing won't gain traction with the capitalist elite.
One guy wrote Fadiman to say that 10 micrograms did nothing, so he tried 25. Then, he reported, “I realized at the sales meeting that I never cared about the stupid product we were selling, so I went home.”
That kind of clarity of thinking certainly wouldn't be tolerated.
One a more practical note, I think there are people doing a lot of interesting stuff, but it does seem destined to stay in the realm of folklore passed from one "hacker" to another because it's relying on self-evaluation rather than outside metrics. I've heard from a writer who did cocaine, that he felt extremely productive and that his work was great when he was using, but when he looked at what he'd done in more sober moments, it was crap. Feeling more productive doesn't make you more productive.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
One guy wrote Fadiman to say that 10 micrograms did nothing, so he tried 25. Then, he reported, “I realized at the sales meeting that I never cared about the stupid product we were selling, so I went home.”
That kind of clarity of thinking certainly wouldn't be tolerated.
One a more practical note, I think there are people doing a lot of interesting stuff, but it does seem destined to stay in the realm of folklore passed from one "hacker" to another because it's relying on self-evaluation rather than outside metrics. I've heard from a writer who did cocaine, that he felt extremely productive and that his work was great when he was using, but when he looked at what he'd done in more sober moments, it was crap. Feeling more productive doesn't make you more productive.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Here's an article about the "study" James Fadiman is conducting. He is having people self report, and there's obviously ethical concerns, but still interesting. I also just found out that he had an FDA sanctioned human study on the effects of LSD on problem solving.
I can't tell you how hopeful it makes me feel that there might be a way to fix my depression that doesn't make me just another kind of emotional zombie.
posted by mayonnaises at 6:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I can't tell you how hopeful it makes me feel that there might be a way to fix my depression that doesn't make me just another kind of emotional zombie.
posted by mayonnaises at 6:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's a shame Philip K. Dick died without seeing his fiction brought to life.
But he did see the Pink Beam of Light, so, you know, he had that going for him.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
But he did see the Pink Beam of Light, so, you know, he had that going for him.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Not ONE use of the word "wetware" in conjunction with hacking?
William Gibson needs a better publicist.
posted by dr_dank at 6:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
William Gibson needs a better publicist.
posted by dr_dank at 6:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
> But I tend to trust people's own accounts of their own experiences, health, and lives, because I am not an asshole.
People self-report very badly. Almost without exception.
The word "bat" is a homonym, because it can mean the flying mammal, or the piece of sports equipment. Similarly, "trust" is a homonym, because it can mean "nod politely and don't argue" or "actually believe." It is hard to hit a bat with a bat and it's even harder to hit a bat with a bat! You should probably trust most people, but not trust them.
posted by officer_fred at 6:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
People self-report very badly. Almost without exception.
The word "bat" is a homonym, because it can mean the flying mammal, or the piece of sports equipment. Similarly, "trust" is a homonym, because it can mean "nod politely and don't argue" or "actually believe." It is hard to hit a bat with a bat and it's even harder to hit a bat with a bat! You should probably trust most people, but not trust them.
posted by officer_fred at 6:56 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
So when is meth finally going to replace coffee in the Silicon Valley break room?
This will be mandated by Executive Order early during the Trump administration. Hey, if it was good enough for Hitler ...
posted by ZenMasterThis at 6:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
This will be mandated by Executive Order early during the Trump administration. Hey, if it was good enough for Hitler ...
posted by ZenMasterThis at 6:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yeah self reporting is shit, except when it's the only thing we have. Which, for a lot of conditions that aren't yet well understood, IS (almost) all we have. Like if you can find some reliable, quantitative metrics for trauma or fibromyalgia or CFS (or or or) that apply to almost everyone who meets the (ever-changing!) diagnostic criteria and that don't rely on self-reporting to some degree, I really want to hear about them. (Seriously, memail me.)
Believe me, I want the studies. I literally have a list in my Evernote of studies I would fund if I somehow lucked into Bond villain level money.
But in the absence of adequate scientific study -- and, TBH, the more you look into how replicable most studies are and how well (or poorly) they are designed, the less "scientific study" starts to mean in casual use (or at least that has been the case for me) -- in absence of adequate evidence obtained with the scientific method and in the presence of suffering I want to alleviate, I have to make choices. Educated guesses. And the more I've have to get involved in managing my own health (with the aid of doctors! Because I'm pretty ruthlessly pragmatic about this, and of course I want to be consulting with medical specialists), the more I've come to understand that this is not all that different from what the best doctors do when dealing with edge cases. They make educated guesses and try stuff.
(And in fact the doctors who were not comfortable admitting that my medical problems were not textbook were the ones who fucked me up the worst. Like seriously, years of being on the wrong medication and being tested for the wrong thing. Years. And that particular guy was "highly respected," but also DEEPLY uncomfortable with anything he didn't understand.)
posted by schadenfrau at 7:02 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Believe me, I want the studies. I literally have a list in my Evernote of studies I would fund if I somehow lucked into Bond villain level money.
But in the absence of adequate scientific study -- and, TBH, the more you look into how replicable most studies are and how well (or poorly) they are designed, the less "scientific study" starts to mean in casual use (or at least that has been the case for me) -- in absence of adequate evidence obtained with the scientific method and in the presence of suffering I want to alleviate, I have to make choices. Educated guesses. And the more I've have to get involved in managing my own health (with the aid of doctors! Because I'm pretty ruthlessly pragmatic about this, and of course I want to be consulting with medical specialists), the more I've come to understand that this is not all that different from what the best doctors do when dealing with edge cases. They make educated guesses and try stuff.
(And in fact the doctors who were not comfortable admitting that my medical problems were not textbook were the ones who fucked me up the worst. Like seriously, years of being on the wrong medication and being tested for the wrong thing. Years. And that particular guy was "highly respected," but also DEEPLY uncomfortable with anything he didn't understand.)
posted by schadenfrau at 7:02 AM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
We get it. You really don't like drugs and users. Some of us have different opinions on drug use and self-experimentation.
And there are about a gazillion drug addicts killing themselves and/or ruining their lives, and the lives of their families, as pretty convincing evidence that it's a bad idea. Drugs are extremely beneficial in controlled circumstances.
Also this is completely wrong. For everyone who sadly overdoses there's hundreds of people who have or do use recreationally and aren't destroying their lives or others. There's safe spaces that show that there would be a lot less overdoses and deaths if heroin wasn't so stigamatized. Also the reason we have so much heroin use right now is because of the overprescription of opiate-based painkillers by doctors.
So, can you please give us space to talk about the article? Or contribute more to the discussion than condescendingly yelling at us that drugs are bad?
posted by mayonnaises at 7:05 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
We get it. You really don't like drugs and users. Some of us have different opinions on drug use and self-experimentation.
And there are about a gazillion drug addicts killing themselves and/or ruining their lives, and the lives of their families, as pretty convincing evidence that it's a bad idea. Drugs are extremely beneficial in controlled circumstances.
Also this is completely wrong. For everyone who sadly overdoses there's hundreds of people who have or do use recreationally and aren't destroying their lives or others. There's safe spaces that show that there would be a lot less overdoses and deaths if heroin wasn't so stigamatized. Also the reason we have so much heroin use right now is because of the overprescription of opiate-based painkillers by doctors.
So, can you please give us space to talk about the article? Or contribute more to the discussion than condescendingly yelling at us that drugs are bad?
posted by mayonnaises at 7:05 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
Wow.
I'm in no position to judge whether LSD can help with workplace productivity.
But some of the assumptions in this thread are horrible, especially those directed at schadenfrau, who seems to be primarily arguing that psychedelics can have some beneficial uses beyond making Drums/Space at a Dead show more tolerable.
Part of the problem is the article itself, which conflates the basic idea of productivity, measured by getting more things done for a longer amount of time, for the type of work that requires more "creativity," for lack of a better word: finding new ideas, drawing connections, reworking problems from a different angle, "make[ing] 'better connections between . . . thoughts and words'" to name a few examples. I can be physically awake as hell (and usually am), but mental alertness - or maybe acuity is a better word - is more elusive. I know it's very possible to sit at a desk for hours on end with the best intentions and get nothing done. So the "just drink coffee" argument is bullshit.
But the majority of my rage is directed at a quote by a physician in the article:
Maloof finds herself recommending a wellness regimen that is decidedly non-cutting-edge. There's nothing about it that lurks deep in Reddit or gets traded in hushed whispers throughout Silicon Valley. It's not that cool. And it's something you've probably heard a million times before: Sleep well, get exercise, eat healthy, do some meditation or yoga. “Most people are not doing all the basic stuff, and they're taking pills to try to get there,” she said. “Everyone wants a shortcut.”
Lady, if I could sleep, I would sleep. I average 2-3 hours a night. I have tried medications, exercise, hypnosis, acupuncture, aromatherapy, meditation, sleep hygiene. And without sleep, I don't have the energy to exercise, cook, read, do any hobbies or - yes - be productive. Again, I can't speak to the benefits of acid, but I can argue that there isn't a clear division between people who need chemical assistance and people who just want to log more hours.
And do you know what most articles about sleep problems seem to suggest? That I should get more sleep.
So this moral hazard attitude, both in the article and the thread, are missing the point. Sometimes people don't work like we're supposed to. Many people have been shown to benefit from all sorts of chemical interventions - whether psychologically, physically, or that nebulous combination of both. Which drugs are "good" and which ones are "evil" are often determined by cultural assumptions and past history. After all, how can the drug that made your college roommate shout Kafka at the minifridge for three hours have any place in grown-up, responsible society. But automatically discounting new drug ideas, or just lazily dismissing them as crutches that good people who live right would never need, is going to stifle research into medications that could significantly improve people's lives. Medical marijuana is the clearest example here, I think.
So just watch the assumptions you make about drugs/medications and the people who use them. The article may focus on techbros with engineer's disease, but many of the criticisms seem to stem from the very idea of using drugs to function at work, and I'm probably not the only person who feels somewhat attacked by that charge.
posted by bibliowench at 7:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
I'm in no position to judge whether LSD can help with workplace productivity.
But some of the assumptions in this thread are horrible, especially those directed at schadenfrau, who seems to be primarily arguing that psychedelics can have some beneficial uses beyond making Drums/Space at a Dead show more tolerable.
Part of the problem is the article itself, which conflates the basic idea of productivity, measured by getting more things done for a longer amount of time, for the type of work that requires more "creativity," for lack of a better word: finding new ideas, drawing connections, reworking problems from a different angle, "make[ing] 'better connections between . . . thoughts and words'" to name a few examples. I can be physically awake as hell (and usually am), but mental alertness - or maybe acuity is a better word - is more elusive. I know it's very possible to sit at a desk for hours on end with the best intentions and get nothing done. So the "just drink coffee" argument is bullshit.
But the majority of my rage is directed at a quote by a physician in the article:
Maloof finds herself recommending a wellness regimen that is decidedly non-cutting-edge. There's nothing about it that lurks deep in Reddit or gets traded in hushed whispers throughout Silicon Valley. It's not that cool. And it's something you've probably heard a million times before: Sleep well, get exercise, eat healthy, do some meditation or yoga. “Most people are not doing all the basic stuff, and they're taking pills to try to get there,” she said. “Everyone wants a shortcut.”
Lady, if I could sleep, I would sleep. I average 2-3 hours a night. I have tried medications, exercise, hypnosis, acupuncture, aromatherapy, meditation, sleep hygiene. And without sleep, I don't have the energy to exercise, cook, read, do any hobbies or - yes - be productive. Again, I can't speak to the benefits of acid, but I can argue that there isn't a clear division between people who need chemical assistance and people who just want to log more hours.
And do you know what most articles about sleep problems seem to suggest? That I should get more sleep.
So this moral hazard attitude, both in the article and the thread, are missing the point. Sometimes people don't work like we're supposed to. Many people have been shown to benefit from all sorts of chemical interventions - whether psychologically, physically, or that nebulous combination of both. Which drugs are "good" and which ones are "evil" are often determined by cultural assumptions and past history. After all, how can the drug that made your college roommate shout Kafka at the minifridge for three hours have any place in grown-up, responsible society. But automatically discounting new drug ideas, or just lazily dismissing them as crutches that good people who live right would never need, is going to stifle research into medications that could significantly improve people's lives. Medical marijuana is the clearest example here, I think.
So just watch the assumptions you make about drugs/medications and the people who use them. The article may focus on techbros with engineer's disease, but many of the criticisms seem to stem from the very idea of using drugs to function at work, and I'm probably not the only person who feels somewhat attacked by that charge.
posted by bibliowench at 7:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
I actually do this for a living [working with clinical pharmaceutical research data]. I think metafilter, speaking generally 'could do this well' -- or at least better than this GQ piece -- which as others have called out, is awful.
A) We don't know nearly as much as the author surmises. Certainly not about the metabolism or activity of LSD. Certainly not about its long term effects. Certainly not about its interactions with other brain subsystems. Certainly not about its interactions with other medications that you, dear reader, may also have taken recently.
B) Biohacking is really just code for 'laymen performing uncontrolled experimentation with their own brain.' A casual read of informed literature can provide you with grim statistics on addiction as to why this may be a poor choice for most people.
C) Is really just 'self-medication' for most of these patients, and they really are 'patients.' Mr. Asprey, from the piece, appears to be trying to build Entrepreneur Self Myth #24 ('I fired my X and did it My Way!') which is great for fried chicken, but terrible for unknown biochemical pathways. He needs to be seen by a better class of healthcare professional, not mixing up imported Chinese chemical compound #A092A7 into gelatin x3
D) On the 'REDDIT lol', that's the camp I personally fall into. There's no mandate to defend it anywhere. It has a long, public history of terrible community mismanagement and executive idiocy. One could use it as neutral information source, as one could use stormfront as a neutral information source. An informed reader would not. An informed reader searching for pharmaceutical information especially would not.
Now, I literally have to Alt-Tab into pharmaceutical data, which makes for a nice Phillip K. Dick moment. I have taken this morning's drug of choice under Capital, which is caffeine.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:17 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
A) We don't know nearly as much as the author surmises. Certainly not about the metabolism or activity of LSD. Certainly not about its long term effects. Certainly not about its interactions with other brain subsystems. Certainly not about its interactions with other medications that you, dear reader, may also have taken recently.
B) Biohacking is really just code for 'laymen performing uncontrolled experimentation with their own brain.' A casual read of informed literature can provide you with grim statistics on addiction as to why this may be a poor choice for most people.
C) Is really just 'self-medication' for most of these patients, and they really are 'patients.' Mr. Asprey, from the piece, appears to be trying to build Entrepreneur Self Myth #24 ('I fired my X and did it My Way!') which is great for fried chicken, but terrible for unknown biochemical pathways. He needs to be seen by a better class of healthcare professional, not mixing up imported Chinese chemical compound #A092A7 into gelatin x3
D) On the 'REDDIT lol', that's the camp I personally fall into. There's no mandate to defend it anywhere. It has a long, public history of terrible community mismanagement and executive idiocy. One could use it as neutral information source, as one could use stormfront as a neutral information source. An informed reader would not. An informed reader searching for pharmaceutical information especially would not.
Now, I literally have to Alt-Tab into pharmaceutical data, which makes for a nice Phillip K. Dick moment. I have taken this morning's drug of choice under Capital, which is caffeine.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:17 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
there are about a gazillion drug addicts killing themselves and/or ruining their lives, and the lives of their families, as pretty convincing evidence that it's a bad idea.
Equating LSD to heroine (or alcohol, which let's be honest is the drug that kills and destroys more lives than all of the others put together yet remains legal), is as logical as equating spinach to hemlock. What LSD and the truly destructive drugs have in common is illegallity, not their effects or mechanisms. Cheeseburgers ruin more lives than pot.
The reason there's not safe, tested versions of LSD is because doing such testing has been made illegal for bad reasons and kept illegal in part because the legal drug industry keeps it that way because they can't patent and profit from them and conservatives like to force their public moral choices on everyone.
If your brain chemistry benefits from drugs that keep you stable and happen to be legal, you should be pushing for legalisation of testing of other drugs that are illegal for bad reasons. Have you ever written your Congress critters encouraging the reclassification of marijuana and LSD so that they can be studied in controlled manners?
But I think that's different from the idea that mind-altering substances help people be better workers, because being an artist is a choice. For most of us, being a worker isn't. If I get fired from my job in favor of someone who can work much longer and harder than I can, I am not going to be able to eat or keep a roof over my head.
Being an artist is a choice of professions too.
There has always been a drug culture with computing since the 70s and there always will be. Pushing the boundaries with code is a creative endevour and drugs help some people with that. There's an old joke that it's no coincidence that LSD and BSD UNIX were both popular in the same region.
Honestly, AI and robots are going to eat your job long before drug enhanced humans are. Certain people are going to push the edge with drugs and maybe they'll get a little boost and maybe they won't. The vast majority of the people I know in Silicon Valley that are wildly successful (the ones working for profitable companies that personally helped develop products you use every day) don't do anything harder than a multivitamin every day and an occasional hit of pot.
posted by Candleman at 7:21 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Equating LSD to heroine (or alcohol, which let's be honest is the drug that kills and destroys more lives than all of the others put together yet remains legal), is as logical as equating spinach to hemlock. What LSD and the truly destructive drugs have in common is illegallity, not their effects or mechanisms. Cheeseburgers ruin more lives than pot.
The reason there's not safe, tested versions of LSD is because doing such testing has been made illegal for bad reasons and kept illegal in part because the legal drug industry keeps it that way because they can't patent and profit from them and conservatives like to force their public moral choices on everyone.
If your brain chemistry benefits from drugs that keep you stable and happen to be legal, you should be pushing for legalisation of testing of other drugs that are illegal for bad reasons. Have you ever written your Congress critters encouraging the reclassification of marijuana and LSD so that they can be studied in controlled manners?
But I think that's different from the idea that mind-altering substances help people be better workers, because being an artist is a choice. For most of us, being a worker isn't. If I get fired from my job in favor of someone who can work much longer and harder than I can, I am not going to be able to eat or keep a roof over my head.
Being an artist is a choice of professions too.
There has always been a drug culture with computing since the 70s and there always will be. Pushing the boundaries with code is a creative endevour and drugs help some people with that. There's an old joke that it's no coincidence that LSD and BSD UNIX were both popular in the same region.
Honestly, AI and robots are going to eat your job long before drug enhanced humans are. Certain people are going to push the edge with drugs and maybe they'll get a little boost and maybe they won't. The vast majority of the people I know in Silicon Valley that are wildly successful (the ones working for profitable companies that personally helped develop products you use every day) don't do anything harder than a multivitamin every day and an occasional hit of pot.
posted by Candleman at 7:21 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
B) Biohacking is really just code for 'laymen performing uncontrolled experimentation with their own brain.' A casual read of informed literature can provide you with grim statistics on addiction as to why this may be a poor choice for most people.
Serious question: which psychedelics have been shown to be addictive? The paucity of research here is obviously not our friend, but I can tell you from personal experience that the substances with which I've experienced physical dependency or addiction were all legal, and almost all medically prescribed. (Nicotine and caffeine excepted there, obviously.)
I know there are people who report withdrawal symptoms after long, regular use of psychoactive cannabis products (don't know about CBD oils), but again, shitty research.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:34 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Serious question: which psychedelics have been shown to be addictive? The paucity of research here is obviously not our friend, but I can tell you from personal experience that the substances with which I've experienced physical dependency or addiction were all legal, and almost all medically prescribed. (Nicotine and caffeine excepted there, obviously.)
I know there are people who report withdrawal symptoms after long, regular use of psychoactive cannabis products (don't know about CBD oils), but again, shitty research.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:34 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
On the 'REDDIT lol', that's the camp I personally fall into. There's no mandate to defend it anywhere. It has a long, public history of terrible community mismanagement and executive idiocy.
That's fine if you can't find a reason to visit there or use it as a news/information source. That doesn't mean that it hasn't improved considerably. It is no longer analogous to 4chan.
All communities have sordid histories somewhere. That a community can grow and change is just as valid for online communities is it is for other groups of people.
posted by INFJ at 7:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
That's fine if you can't find a reason to visit there or use it as a news/information source. That doesn't mean that it hasn't improved considerably. It is no longer analogous to 4chan.
All communities have sordid histories somewhere. That a community can grow and change is just as valid for online communities is it is for other groups of people.
posted by INFJ at 7:39 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
The limited research we do have shows that psychedelics have powerful antidepressant effects. I have no idea how this is even controversial here.
Self-reporting is not scientifically rigorous, but that doesn't mean there's no useful information to be gained from it, and if anecdotal evidence supports the hypothesis that this helps people, I am 100% in favor of people continuing to do it until actual scientific research can be legally done. Particularly with mushrooms, which are non-addictive and non-harmful.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:42 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Self-reporting is not scientifically rigorous, but that doesn't mean there's no useful information to be gained from it, and if anecdotal evidence supports the hypothesis that this helps people, I am 100% in favor of people continuing to do it until actual scientific research can be legally done. Particularly with mushrooms, which are non-addictive and non-harmful.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:42 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
It is no longer analogous to 4chan
I mean, I do find Reddit useful for a very few things, but to pretend that it's not a place where every rape or pedophilia or racist "joke" gets upvoted to the moon (and usually gilded) in the majority of subs (and of course all the defaults) is head-in-the-sand ridiculous.
Add that to the way the ranking algorithm tends to shut down unpopular opinions, in particular if they're not offered early in a post's life, and you wind up with a lot of really, really awful content. (And I do think that this is germane, given that Reddit is one major way techbros are spreading their "brainhacking" ideas.)
posted by uncleozzy at 7:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
I mean, I do find Reddit useful for a very few things, but to pretend that it's not a place where every rape or pedophilia or racist "joke" gets upvoted to the moon (and usually gilded) in the majority of subs (and of course all the defaults) is head-in-the-sand ridiculous.
Add that to the way the ranking algorithm tends to shut down unpopular opinions, in particular if they're not offered early in a post's life, and you wind up with a lot of really, really awful content. (And I do think that this is germane, given that Reddit is one major way techbros are spreading their "brainhacking" ideas.)
posted by uncleozzy at 7:48 AM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
The limited research we do have shows that psychedelics have powerful antidepressant effects.
(The effect is time limited, unstable, difficult to quantify, and via a yet-to-be-quantified mechanism)
Ketamine-class research and productization is ongoing, so there is a ray of hope here.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
(The effect is time limited, unstable, difficult to quantify, and via a yet-to-be-quantified mechanism)
Ketamine-class research and productization is ongoing, so there is a ray of hope here.
posted by mrdaneri at 7:49 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
AI and robots are going to eat your job long before drug enhanced humans are
I don't know about this.
I'm in academia (as a grad student, but I hope to remain). We're nowhere near AI that can produce academic work. But as the environment grows more and more competitive, you can be edged out by very slim margins: one more publication, one more course, one more hour a day to develop an additional skill...
There are already students taking drugs because they feel like in order to succeed they need to sustain a focused working state for longer than is possible without drugs. Or to deal with the stress of naturally stressful demands. Not because they're self-medicating for a medical problem.
I think there's something wrong with that kind of environmental pressure. I don't know what the solution is; I don't want to stigmatize all drug users, because I honestly don't give a fuck and some people might actually benefit. Who knows. But I do worry that it is very possible that people are already encouraged (implicitly) to take drugs to meet expectations or maintain a competitive edge, which brings up all sorts of questions about bodily autonomy and health and inequality and so on.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
I don't know about this.
I'm in academia (as a grad student, but I hope to remain). We're nowhere near AI that can produce academic work. But as the environment grows more and more competitive, you can be edged out by very slim margins: one more publication, one more course, one more hour a day to develop an additional skill...
There are already students taking drugs because they feel like in order to succeed they need to sustain a focused working state for longer than is possible without drugs. Or to deal with the stress of naturally stressful demands. Not because they're self-medicating for a medical problem.
I think there's something wrong with that kind of environmental pressure. I don't know what the solution is; I don't want to stigmatize all drug users, because I honestly don't give a fuck and some people might actually benefit. Who knows. But I do worry that it is very possible that people are already encouraged (implicitly) to take drugs to meet expectations or maintain a competitive edge, which brings up all sorts of questions about bodily autonomy and health and inequality and so on.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:51 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Capitalism will not be satisfied until every pleasurable or spiritual human experience is yoked into its service.
Profit is the only true human pleasure. So sayeth the hand.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Profit is the only true human pleasure. So sayeth the hand.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:52 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
The judgmental nature of some MetaFilter users never fails to amaze me.
Anyway, if you're turned off by the involvement of white males in this, Ayelet Waldman wrote a book about it too.
posted by mikeand1 at 7:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Anyway, if you're turned off by the involvement of white males in this, Ayelet Waldman wrote a book about it too.
posted by mikeand1 at 7:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Yeah, I wouldn't be comfortable classifying even psilocybin as "completely safe," even when used on the micro scale (<1/10 of a recreational dose). but that's ok because "completely safe" is a ridiculous standard that literally nothing meets. So.
We really, really, really need more research. For anyone reading this, I can tell you that I've seen remarkable improvements in my PTSD as a result of using various psychedelics in a deliberate way at various doses. Like remarkable to the point where my trauma specialist is fucking agape, and has shared it with a number of her colleagues (with my permission). Remarkable enough that it has led to improvement in other symptoms that I didn't even realize were at least partially the downstream result of PTSD.
I'm not exaggerating when I say it's changed my life, and if I'd known this would be the outcome, I would have run an obstacle course filled with flaming crocodiles to get here, let alone live with the risk of the many unknowns related to psychedelics.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
We really, really, really need more research. For anyone reading this, I can tell you that I've seen remarkable improvements in my PTSD as a result of using various psychedelics in a deliberate way at various doses. Like remarkable to the point where my trauma specialist is fucking agape, and has shared it with a number of her colleagues (with my permission). Remarkable enough that it has led to improvement in other symptoms that I didn't even realize were at least partially the downstream result of PTSD.
I'm not exaggerating when I say it's changed my life, and if I'd known this would be the outcome, I would have run an obstacle course filled with flaming crocodiles to get here, let alone live with the risk of the many unknowns related to psychedelics.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:58 AM on January 6, 2017 [17 favorites]
“I realized at the sales meeting that I never cared about the stupid product we were selling, so I went home.”
Bill Hicks does a great bit about this (not the "Advertisers, kill yourselves" bit) where he talks about how psychedelics should be illegal because we'd all realize we were one organism that had to work together for our mutual survival and that's antithetical to the war machine and the other things that prop up capitalism.
I have one peer group that is heavy in to microdosing and it seems to so far be working for them, not to make them better workers per se but to help with depression, SAD, other random things. Calling it biohacking automatically makes it seem irritating but it's been interesting to hear them talk about it. I haven't tried it, it's on my "to do" list for this year.
The very worst thing the War on Drugs did for the US besides the aggressive harassment and incarceration of people of color was to remove the distinction between drugs that really are terribly habit forming and addictive, and "nuisance" drugs which have side effects and social issues but are more of a problem for society by dint of being illegal than they would be if they were legal (as we're seeing lately).
At the very end of the article you can see how it says "This piece originally appeared in the January 2016 issue with the title "Your Boss Is Gonna Love Your New Drug Habit."" and I bet they changed it because, really, LSD is not habit forming in the way heroin or opioids are and blurring that important distinction helps keep a lot of stupid laws in place that actually inhibit our ability to understand the effects and other applications of some of these products.
posted by jessamyn at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
Bill Hicks does a great bit about this (not the "Advertisers, kill yourselves" bit) where he talks about how psychedelics should be illegal because we'd all realize we were one organism that had to work together for our mutual survival and that's antithetical to the war machine and the other things that prop up capitalism.
I have one peer group that is heavy in to microdosing and it seems to so far be working for them, not to make them better workers per se but to help with depression, SAD, other random things. Calling it biohacking automatically makes it seem irritating but it's been interesting to hear them talk about it. I haven't tried it, it's on my "to do" list for this year.
The very worst thing the War on Drugs did for the US besides the aggressive harassment and incarceration of people of color was to remove the distinction between drugs that really are terribly habit forming and addictive, and "nuisance" drugs which have side effects and social issues but are more of a problem for society by dint of being illegal than they would be if they were legal (as we're seeing lately).
At the very end of the article you can see how it says "This piece originally appeared in the January 2016 issue with the title "Your Boss Is Gonna Love Your New Drug Habit."" and I bet they changed it because, really, LSD is not habit forming in the way heroin or opioids are and blurring that important distinction helps keep a lot of stupid laws in place that actually inhibit our ability to understand the effects and other applications of some of these products.
posted by jessamyn at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [25 favorites]
in the majority of subs (and of course all the defaults) is head-in-the-sand ridiculous.
This exaggeration isn't helping. I said earlier that it has both the good and bad in humanity. Yes, there is still shitty behavior, but this sort of blanket "most of reddit is full of vile *.bros" is also ridiculous. It's no more or less worthy of ridicule then Twitter. Any online communication tool that has a level of anonymity and lax moderation is going to bring out the worst in people.
I'm just trying to say that the reddit user base is growing in positive ways and that maybe everyone here might reconsider the insulting attitude.
posted by INFJ at 8:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
This exaggeration isn't helping. I said earlier that it has both the good and bad in humanity. Yes, there is still shitty behavior, but this sort of blanket "most of reddit is full of vile *.bros" is also ridiculous. It's no more or less worthy of ridicule then Twitter. Any online communication tool that has a level of anonymity and lax moderation is going to bring out the worst in people.
I'm just trying to say that the reddit user base is growing in positive ways and that maybe everyone here might reconsider the insulting attitude.
posted by INFJ at 8:04 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Maybe in general let's drop round #137 of "Reddit: irredeemable or just problematic" in here, it's ground that's been gone over a lot before and fairly aside from the main subject of the thread.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:11 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:11 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ctrl-F: Placebo. One mention in the article, no mentions here. You must've all failed to take your LSD this morning.
posted by clawsoon at 8:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 8:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
“I realized at the sales meeting that I never cared about the stupid product we were selling, so I went home.” Admittedly, it has been quite a while since I walked down the Hallways of Always, but that sure sounds like the basic LSD realization I remember.
posted by Bob Regular at 8:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Bob Regular at 8:27 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Drugs are extremely beneficial in controlled circumstances. They are dangerous as hell in uncontrolled circumstances. Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
Trying very hard not to resort to an ad hominem response to this, since you ARE calling me a moron, but how does your view square with the fact that drugs with KNOWN (if underresearched, see a few words down) beneficial qualities that could help literally millions of people are ILLEGAL in anything you would likely accept as a "controlled" environment? Is that just too fucking bad?
posted by Gaz Errant at 8:34 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Trying very hard not to resort to an ad hominem response to this, since you ARE calling me a moron, but how does your view square with the fact that drugs with KNOWN (if underresearched, see a few words down) beneficial qualities that could help literally millions of people are ILLEGAL in anything you would likely accept as a "controlled" environment? Is that just too fucking bad?
posted by Gaz Errant at 8:34 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Again, it is very disingenuous, to a ridiculous degree, to bring up treating trauma and other legitimate medical conditions, and link it to a bunch of people on Reddit taking drugs just to see what happens.
That was really the intent of my skepticism and scorn at the top of the thread.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
That was really the intent of my skepticism and scorn at the top of the thread.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I would just grain of salt schadenfrau's anecdotal data for anyone considering self treatment via psychedelics. I say this as someone with MDD who was a candidate for an experimental, controlled study using psychedelics via my local NIH supported Medical School and its research programs.
Believe you me, me and my psychiatrist went over the protocol very, very carefully.
Bottom line: Not for me. As it turned out, that particular study showed that it wasn't for everyone. In fact it proved, that it really didn't work. At least not the way that people thought it should have. Far more questions were raised, which is 100% 'business as usual' for this stuff:
'Were the protocols correct?' 'Were the dosages correct?' 'Were preexisting disqualifiers evaluated by the correct protocols?' 'Was this statistical model for the results the right one to apply, or should we have used that one?' 'Was this serotonin binding site even the right activity site? Was it in fact, the other one? Should we do another study, with a different psychedelic derivative with activity over there? Is that even legal in this jurisdiction? Maybe we can model it via computer simulation...'
And so on. Please pass $25M USD for further study.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Believe you me, me and my psychiatrist went over the protocol very, very carefully.
Bottom line: Not for me. As it turned out, that particular study showed that it wasn't for everyone. In fact it proved, that it really didn't work. At least not the way that people thought it should have. Far more questions were raised, which is 100% 'business as usual' for this stuff:
'Were the protocols correct?' 'Were the dosages correct?' 'Were preexisting disqualifiers evaluated by the correct protocols?' 'Was this statistical model for the results the right one to apply, or should we have used that one?' 'Was this serotonin binding site even the right activity site? Was it in fact, the other one? Should we do another study, with a different psychedelic derivative with activity over there? Is that even legal in this jurisdiction? Maybe we can model it via computer simulation...'
And so on. Please pass $25M USD for further study.
posted by mrdaneri at 8:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
I would just grain of salt schadenfrau's anecdotal data for anyone considering self treatment via psychedelics
Piggybacking on this, I should say that not all psychedelics were for me, either. MDMA started to get quite nasty for me, and progressively so, even at extremely low dosages.* LSD is good for some things and not others, and with the stuff I got I need to stick to 1/20 of a recreational dose (whatever that may be). Psilocybin has been the gentlest and overall most effective for me, as far as psychedelics go, but I've also gotten wonderful and unexpected results with cannabis edibles.
I should also note that none of this works for trauma or medical stuff (for me) if you're just popping some drugs and then going about your day. Like I take some drugs and then actively think about things, write them down, do specific physical activity that helps with nervous system fuckery (yoga, or anything with bilateral symmetrical movement). My point is that it's a deliberate process that requires active work, not a short cut.
*recognizing, of course, that "dosage" is not necessarily exact unless you're in a lab with lots of fancy equipment. For reference, 150 mg was sold as a strongish recreational dose; I took as much as 30 mg (way too much, scaled way back), and eventually had problems at dosages as low as 8 mg. While there were obvious benefits (that I really miss), the negative side effects freaked me out enough that MDMA is not for me at any dose.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Piggybacking on this, I should say that not all psychedelics were for me, either. MDMA started to get quite nasty for me, and progressively so, even at extremely low dosages.* LSD is good for some things and not others, and with the stuff I got I need to stick to 1/20 of a recreational dose (whatever that may be). Psilocybin has been the gentlest and overall most effective for me, as far as psychedelics go, but I've also gotten wonderful and unexpected results with cannabis edibles.
I should also note that none of this works for trauma or medical stuff (for me) if you're just popping some drugs and then going about your day. Like I take some drugs and then actively think about things, write them down, do specific physical activity that helps with nervous system fuckery (yoga, or anything with bilateral symmetrical movement). My point is that it's a deliberate process that requires active work, not a short cut.
*recognizing, of course, that "dosage" is not necessarily exact unless you're in a lab with lots of fancy equipment. For reference, 150 mg was sold as a strongish recreational dose; I took as much as 30 mg (way too much, scaled way back), and eventually had problems at dosages as low as 8 mg. While there were obvious benefits (that I really miss), the negative side effects freaked me out enough that MDMA is not for me at any dose.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:54 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Here's a link to a great article on using these drugs to treat PTSD, the history of opposition to studying hallucinogens, and how the rise in people coming back from the Iraq war began changing the willingness to study them: The Peace Drug
One of the really interesting parts of this particular exploration is that the drugs under discussion are not necessarily designed to be used by themselves, but that they are often most useful when used as part of other forms of therapy. For people who have traumatic memories, the triggers are so extreme that any attempt to revisit those experiences is completely impossible. But clinicians found that if people were given MDMA in a controlled environment and then guided through a therapy session, those people could revisit traumatic memories in a detached, peaceful way, and thereby begin the process of building coping mechanisms that would remain in place once the "trip" was over. The goal for patients wasn't for them to take ecstasy every day for the rest of their lives, but to unlock a therapeutic possibility that had previously been unavailable to them.
"Biohacking" seems more like a coping mechanism (or a video game power up) than an attempt to heal and get into a better place in the longterm. And maybe that is the only thing some people have access to, so fine, if that is what people need to exist, then that is what they need. But I am really interested in research about how these drugs can be used, not in and of themselves, but as parts of larger therapeutic frameworks that are designed to ultimately make the drugs themselves unnecessary.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
One of the really interesting parts of this particular exploration is that the drugs under discussion are not necessarily designed to be used by themselves, but that they are often most useful when used as part of other forms of therapy. For people who have traumatic memories, the triggers are so extreme that any attempt to revisit those experiences is completely impossible. But clinicians found that if people were given MDMA in a controlled environment and then guided through a therapy session, those people could revisit traumatic memories in a detached, peaceful way, and thereby begin the process of building coping mechanisms that would remain in place once the "trip" was over. The goal for patients wasn't for them to take ecstasy every day for the rest of their lives, but to unlock a therapeutic possibility that had previously been unavailable to them.
"Biohacking" seems more like a coping mechanism (or a video game power up) than an attempt to heal and get into a better place in the longterm. And maybe that is the only thing some people have access to, so fine, if that is what people need to exist, then that is what they need. But I am really interested in research about how these drugs can be used, not in and of themselves, but as parts of larger therapeutic frameworks that are designed to ultimately make the drugs themselves unnecessary.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Interesting that this article was so male-focused, considering that perennial conversation starter Ayelet Waldman has a book about microdosing coming out next week: A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life, and Marie Claire ran an article about women microdosing at work back in November.
posted by redsparkler at 9:42 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by redsparkler at 9:42 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
It just blows my mind that people don't see this for the absurdly stupid and risky behavior that it is. I mean hey, I bet Reddit has a forum on self-trepanation, but I'm not about to go buy a drill bit and call myself a "biohacker".
Other people are probably on this but - we talking about the same drug here? Tripping balls full on is a bit risky - bad mental health reactions and so on - but it ain't that crazy a thing to do.
(for regular microdosers I would be slightly concerned about heart valve damage from 5-HT2B agonism - I know that's a risk of other ergot derivatives but I have no idea bow active LSD actually is at that receptor.)
posted by atoxyl at 10:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Other people are probably on this but - we talking about the same drug here? Tripping balls full on is a bit risky - bad mental health reactions and so on - but it ain't that crazy a thing to do.
(for regular microdosers I would be slightly concerned about heart valve damage from 5-HT2B agonism - I know that's a risk of other ergot derivatives but I have no idea bow active LSD actually is at that receptor.)
posted by atoxyl at 10:01 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'll just leave this here: LSD, psilocybin and other tryptamines, at less than psychedelic doses, are the most effective preventative known for cluster headache, the most painful medical condition known. The evidence is anecdotal, but massive, and clinical trials are about to start. Magic mushrooms and Rivea corymbosa seeds (LSA) saved me from a world of pain.
posted by tommyD at 10:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by tommyD at 10:06 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
These are all legit scientific studies on the safety and theraputic effects of mushrooms. Feel free to not approve of, or be skeptical of, microdosing, but if you're still insisting that shrooms are super dangerous and that any possible positive effects are placebos, you're simply wrong.
Johns Hopkins Study Finds That Controlled Magic Mushroom Use Is Safe And Has Lasting Benefits
Psychedelic drugs 'as safe as riding a bike or playing soccer' and could help solve addiction
Magic Mushroom Drug Lifts Depression in Human Trial: Psilocybin shows higher remission rate than SSRI drugs in U.K. study
Pilot Study of Psilocybin Treatment for Anxiety in Patients With Advanced-Stage Cancer
Effects of psilocybin on hippocampal neurogenesis and extinction of trace fear conditioning
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Johns Hopkins Study Finds That Controlled Magic Mushroom Use Is Safe And Has Lasting Benefits
Psychedelic drugs 'as safe as riding a bike or playing soccer' and could help solve addiction
Magic Mushroom Drug Lifts Depression in Human Trial: Psilocybin shows higher remission rate than SSRI drugs in U.K. study
Pilot Study of Psilocybin Treatment for Anxiety in Patients With Advanced-Stage Cancer
Effects of psilocybin on hippocampal neurogenesis and extinction of trace fear conditioning
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
There's a lot of rah-rah drug war propaganda in here. Maybe not directly, but the sense of shaming over pot and LSD is really weird to see on mefi.
We exist in a regulatory environment that couldn't explore the medical benefits of cannabis for basically forever, despite the fact that it seems to be a basically risk-free wonder drug for pain tolerance. Is it so hard to believe that these people (risky as it may be) are finding things at the periphery that are similarly situated?
posted by TypographicalError at 10:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
We exist in a regulatory environment that couldn't explore the medical benefits of cannabis for basically forever, despite the fact that it seems to be a basically risk-free wonder drug for pain tolerance. Is it so hard to believe that these people (risky as it may be) are finding things at the periphery that are similarly situated?
posted by TypographicalError at 10:24 AM on January 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Just sounds like a waste of good LSD to me!!! (Taking it to become a better cog in the machine? No!!! I think you should take it to free yourself from the machine completely.)
posted by crazy_yeti at 10:40 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by crazy_yeti at 10:40 AM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Interesting that this article was so male-focused, considering that perennial conversation starter Ayelet Waldman has a book about microdosing coming out next week: A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life, and Marie Claire ran an article about women microdosing at work back in November.
yeah, I really do not care for assumptions (or journalistic focuses that foster the assumption) that women are too boring and sensible to run around putting drugs in their various parts because only cocky young men are stupid enough to experiment, when "stupid" is understood to be a derogatory euphemism for brave and adventurous (and stupid too, sure.) trepanation was mentioned above and women do that too, goddamn it! Amanda Feilding's had a hole in her head for longer than I've been alive. her current capacity for productive office work amongst bros is unknown to me, though.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
yeah, I really do not care for assumptions (or journalistic focuses that foster the assumption) that women are too boring and sensible to run around putting drugs in their various parts because only cocky young men are stupid enough to experiment, when "stupid" is understood to be a derogatory euphemism for brave and adventurous (and stupid too, sure.) trepanation was mentioned above and women do that too, goddamn it! Amanda Feilding's had a hole in her head for longer than I've been alive. her current capacity for productive office work amongst bros is unknown to me, though.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
I could just as easily point out the known link between using drugs like pot and LSD in one's late teens and early 20s, and the resulting rise in active mental illness in people who only had a latent tendency.
...
It just blows my mind that people don't see this for the absurdly stupid and risky behavior that it is.
It's not that risky. I'll eat my hat if you came to this conclusion by evaluating whatever studies are the putative basis for this knowledge on your own for statistical power, effect size, significance, and experimental methodology.
posted by invitapriore at 11:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
...
It just blows my mind that people don't see this for the absurdly stupid and risky behavior that it is.
It's not that risky. I'll eat my hat if you came to this conclusion by evaluating whatever studies are the putative basis for this knowledge on your own for statistical power, effect size, significance, and experimental methodology.
posted by invitapriore at 11:07 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I would hope that none of my comments would be seen as shaming anyone over anything or doing anything other than advancing the position that 'actual epistemological knowledge of medicine' is hard and the path is littered with thousands, if not millions of actual dead bodies. In my personal life, I advocate the position that adults are free to make informed choices.
I wouldn't take any advice over the internet, myself-- and that goes double for healthcare stuff. If somebody was pitching a book-- that goes quadruple. This year's hot nootropic is next year's 'known schizogenic trigger for susceptible populations carrying 5-HT receptor subtype X.' We don't know.
posted by mrdaneri at 11:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
I wouldn't take any advice over the internet, myself-- and that goes double for healthcare stuff. If somebody was pitching a book-- that goes quadruple. This year's hot nootropic is next year's 'known schizogenic trigger for susceptible populations carrying 5-HT receptor subtype X.' We don't know.
posted by mrdaneri at 11:09 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
You're not taking it to be a better cog, well, you're trying to be a better cog but that doesn't mean you're not trying to free yourself from being that cog in the process.
I'm both terribly lazy and pretty productive. I try to view my work as an obstacle getting in the way of me being lazy. So, I try to get my stuff as efficiently as I can so that I can get back to doing nothing that much sooner. I view house work the same way. The sooner I get it done, the sooner I can get back to sitting on my ass.
So if I'm micro-dosing LSD to help with my job, it's so that I can get it done better and faster. The sooner I get it done, the sooner I drop the "micro" from the dosing.
posted by VTX at 11:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm both terribly lazy and pretty productive. I try to view my work as an obstacle getting in the way of me being lazy. So, I try to get my stuff as efficiently as I can so that I can get back to doing nothing that much sooner. I view house work the same way. The sooner I get it done, the sooner I can get back to sitting on my ass.
So if I'm micro-dosing LSD to help with my job, it's so that I can get it done better and faster. The sooner I get it done, the sooner I drop the "micro" from the dosing.
posted by VTX at 11:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
My homeopathic drug dealer says I just need to keep diluting it, and it becomes even more powerful.
posted by iamck at 11:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by iamck at 11:14 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Also the reason we have so much heroin use right now is because of the overprescription of opiate-based painkillers by doctors.
Arguably it's not because of overprescription at all, but because of the way doctors (often not by choice) are forced to pull patients off of opiates for not-especially-medically-related reasons. It creates a pretty brutal cycle, particularly since opiates are one of the only really good treatments we have for severe pain. You hurt yourself and are in pain, you get opiates which make the pain stop, allowing you to live your life for a while, but then you get told "nope, no more opiates", and the pain comes back—so now you're in pain again, quite apart from the opiate withdrawal. No shit people go score H off the street (or buy Rx opiates on the black market). I'd probably do the same if I had chronic pain and I couldn't get something that worked from an MD.
As far as I can tell, it's because of the confluence of two things: one is a terrible social phobia of "addiction", which is odd in light of the fact that there are millions of people running around who are only alive because of a continuous supply of just the right drugs, some of which are a lot more expensive or have significantly more side effects than opiates; the second, perhaps more pernicious, is that idea that some drugs are inherently sinful, by virtue of being pleasant to use and/or used recreationally, and their use should be minimized or that their use is somehow morally toxic in itself. Nobody cares if you have to take synthroid every day for the rest of your life, because (they believe) nobody would take synthroid recreationally—but boy howdy do people have opinions on the idea of taking maintenance doses of opiate painkillers indefinitely.
Which, of course, seems like the same issue many people have (not necessarily here on MeFi, but more generally) with LSD microdosing. When people "biohack" with drugs like DHEA or melatonin, there's some occasional tut-tutting but not the same moral "junkie panic" as when a drug that's used recreationally is involved.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:25 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Arguably it's not because of overprescription at all, but because of the way doctors (often not by choice) are forced to pull patients off of opiates for not-especially-medically-related reasons. It creates a pretty brutal cycle, particularly since opiates are one of the only really good treatments we have for severe pain. You hurt yourself and are in pain, you get opiates which make the pain stop, allowing you to live your life for a while, but then you get told "nope, no more opiates", and the pain comes back—so now you're in pain again, quite apart from the opiate withdrawal. No shit people go score H off the street (or buy Rx opiates on the black market). I'd probably do the same if I had chronic pain and I couldn't get something that worked from an MD.
As far as I can tell, it's because of the confluence of two things: one is a terrible social phobia of "addiction", which is odd in light of the fact that there are millions of people running around who are only alive because of a continuous supply of just the right drugs, some of which are a lot more expensive or have significantly more side effects than opiates; the second, perhaps more pernicious, is that idea that some drugs are inherently sinful, by virtue of being pleasant to use and/or used recreationally, and their use should be minimized or that their use is somehow morally toxic in itself. Nobody cares if you have to take synthroid every day for the rest of your life, because (they believe) nobody would take synthroid recreationally—but boy howdy do people have opinions on the idea of taking maintenance doses of opiate painkillers indefinitely.
Which, of course, seems like the same issue many people have (not necessarily here on MeFi, but more generally) with LSD microdosing. When people "biohack" with drugs like DHEA or melatonin, there's some occasional tut-tutting but not the same moral "junkie panic" as when a drug that's used recreationally is involved.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:25 AM on January 6, 2017 [8 favorites]
Drugs! I love 'em!!!
posted by josher71 at 11:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by josher71 at 11:30 AM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Drugs are extremely beneficial in controlled circumstances. They are dangerous as hell in uncontrolled circumstances. Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
Is there maybe a chance that there is more to this than these two extremes? Is anything that isn't done in a lab with tightly controlled protocols "uncontrolled circumstances"?
Even with a well designed, double-blind study, there are going to be caveats and exceptions, things that need to be researched more, other questions to be answered, and grains of salt to be taken with the results. The farther you get from that environment, the less control you have, and the more the results should be questions. But to say that anything else is without value is rediculous.
Obviously, micro-dosing LSD is something that should be studied in tightly controlled circumstances before we all go off and start dropping acid at our desks but that doesn't mean that the idea is without merit. For me, my only take-away from this article is, "Geez, it seems like there might be something to this, I hope someone is able to point to this to get a real, scientific study going to look at it."
Just because it's not a double-blind study doesn't mean he's wrong, just that we need to take his results with a larger grain of salt. Like any other experiment, you need to look over the details and note the study's shortcomings. "Techbro drops acid for internet article" is a HUGE short coming but if other people try it and report similar results, you've at least got enough evidence to support investigating the effect with some real science.
posted by VTX at 11:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
Is there maybe a chance that there is more to this than these two extremes? Is anything that isn't done in a lab with tightly controlled protocols "uncontrolled circumstances"?
Even with a well designed, double-blind study, there are going to be caveats and exceptions, things that need to be researched more, other questions to be answered, and grains of salt to be taken with the results. The farther you get from that environment, the less control you have, and the more the results should be questions. But to say that anything else is without value is rediculous.
Obviously, micro-dosing LSD is something that should be studied in tightly controlled circumstances before we all go off and start dropping acid at our desks but that doesn't mean that the idea is without merit. For me, my only take-away from this article is, "Geez, it seems like there might be something to this, I hope someone is able to point to this to get a real, scientific study going to look at it."
Just because it's not a double-blind study doesn't mean he's wrong, just that we need to take his results with a larger grain of salt. Like any other experiment, you need to look over the details and note the study's shortcomings. "Techbro drops acid for internet article" is a HUGE short coming but if other people try it and report similar results, you've at least got enough evidence to support investigating the effect with some real science.
posted by VTX at 11:41 AM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
I could just as easily point out the known link between using drugs like pot and LSD in one's late teens and early 20s, and the resulting rise in active mental illness in people who only had a latent tendency.
As far as LSD goes I suspect you'll find the amount of good evidence substantiating or disproving this link is pretty slim. There was a fairly recent study suggesting risk are low, but it's based on self-reporting and has other limitations.
Anecdotally:
- out of a fair number of (pretty heavy) trippers I know somebody who had a self-resolving psychotic reaction (on mushrooms I think but he took a lot of stuff).
- I've experienced some persistent changes in my visual perception as described by HPPD patients, but pretty mildly and it diminishes after not taking psychedelics for a while.
posted by atoxyl at 11:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
As far as LSD goes I suspect you'll find the amount of good evidence substantiating or disproving this link is pretty slim. There was a fairly recent study suggesting risk are low, but it's based on self-reporting and has other limitations.
Anecdotally:
- out of a fair number of (pretty heavy) trippers I know somebody who had a self-resolving psychotic reaction (on mushrooms I think but he took a lot of stuff).
- I've experienced some persistent changes in my visual perception as described by HPPD patients, but pretty mildly and it diminishes after not taking psychedelics for a while.
posted by atoxyl at 11:53 AM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
lol i took acid every day for 2 years to make working at the limelight tolerable
i'd rather improve working conditions by seizing control of the means of production and installing a dictatorship of the proletariat
posted by poffin boffin at 12:02 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
i'd rather improve working conditions by seizing control of the means of production and installing a dictatorship of the proletariat
posted by poffin boffin at 12:02 PM on January 6, 2017 [5 favorites]
If you try microdosing but overdo it, would that be millidosing?
posted by ctmf at 12:28 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by ctmf at 12:28 PM on January 6, 2017
These are all legit scientific studies on the safety and therapeutic effects of mushrooms. Feel free to not approve of, or be skeptical of, microdosing, but if you're still insisting that shrooms are super dangerous and that any possible positive effects are placebos, you're simply wrong.
I'm an academic (of sorts) and I'm tangentially involved (tangentially, because my discipline is a million miles away from neuroscience etc.) in one of these studies. I've read a fair amount of literature into LSD and Psilocybin studies and, from everything I've read, the potential benefit of these substances, from PTSD to addiction to palliative care, to name but a few things, is truly vast. Like "scientists are giddy", vast. The reason why this is just coming out now, is due to the illegality and thus the huge difficulty in mounting any study of them, especially in the US. If you are interested in any of this research, I strongly encourage you to write to your congressperson to ask that they support it. Due to politics and puritanical attitudes, decades have been lost and the potential applications for these drugs, as I say, is vast.
posted by ob at 12:29 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
So, I try to get my stuff as efficiently as I can so that I can get back to doing nothing that much sooner.
Yeah, if I have a way to be more productive that means I don't have to work as much (this is more true if you're in a job that doesn't have fixed hours, like Silicon Valley jobs tend to, but even for jobs where you have to show up 9 to 5 some people enjoy having slack time).
posted by thefoxgod at 12:39 PM on January 6, 2017
Yeah, if I have a way to be more productive that means I don't have to work as much (this is more true if you're in a job that doesn't have fixed hours, like Silicon Valley jobs tend to, but even for jobs where you have to show up 9 to 5 some people enjoy having slack time).
posted by thefoxgod at 12:39 PM on January 6, 2017
I'm an academic (of sorts) and I'm tangentially involved (tangentially, because my discipline is a million miles away from neuroscience etc.) in one of these studies. I've read a fair amount of literature into LSD and Psilocybin studies and, from everything I've read, the potential benefit of these substances, from PTSD to addiction to palliative care, to name but a few things, is truly vast. Like "scientists are giddy", vast.
This was my impression too, as a total layperson. Over the past year or two, there have been seemingly regular articles in the newspapers and magazines I read daily (The Atlantic, New York Times, New Yorker, Slate, Vox) about studies on the benefits of shrooms and ketamine for depression and less often, LSD. I haven't done any deeper research on this and have no personal investment but from the tone of these articles, I assumed this was widely accepted and am really surprised at the tone of these comments. If this is really just all placebo effect, that is not an impression that is being received by a general audience, due to the press coverage.
posted by armadillo1224 at 12:40 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
This was my impression too, as a total layperson. Over the past year or two, there have been seemingly regular articles in the newspapers and magazines I read daily (The Atlantic, New York Times, New Yorker, Slate, Vox) about studies on the benefits of shrooms and ketamine for depression and less often, LSD. I haven't done any deeper research on this and have no personal investment but from the tone of these articles, I assumed this was widely accepted and am really surprised at the tone of these comments. If this is really just all placebo effect, that is not an impression that is being received by a general audience, due to the press coverage.
posted by armadillo1224 at 12:40 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Arguably it's not because of overprescription at all, but because of the way doctors (often not by choice) are forced to pull patients off of opiates for not-especially-medically-related reasons.
There's been a lot of articles about the roll the pharmaceutical industry and doctors have helped fuel the heroine epidemic.
I agree with the rest of your post though, that forcing patients off of opiates for no reason and the stigma around using opiates for chronic pain relief is very bad, but I think it's a different issue and is overshadowed by over prescription, even if it does contribute to the drug abuse rates. Those people should clearly be able to continue to use it for pain management.
posted by mayonnaises at 12:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's been a lot of articles about the roll the pharmaceutical industry and doctors have helped fuel the heroine epidemic.
I agree with the rest of your post though, that forcing patients off of opiates for no reason and the stigma around using opiates for chronic pain relief is very bad, but I think it's a different issue and is overshadowed by over prescription, even if it does contribute to the drug abuse rates. Those people should clearly be able to continue to use it for pain management.
posted by mayonnaises at 12:44 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
I'm super okay if you think I am a moron. I get that people come at these topics with a lot of preconceptions, accurate or not. I think more people talking about their lived experience AND other people sharing links to scientific studies is one small part of making the world more safe for drug takers and non-drug takers and those people whose lives would be improved by drugs but can't get them due to fear, ignorance, stupid laws or combinations of those things. Not everyone needs to go out and take chances, but being able to accurately determine what sort of thing is actually risky versus what is just screwing around is another useful tool in the tookit. Humans are terrible at risk assessment. And being judgmental about other people's risk assessments.
posted by jessamyn at 1:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
I'm super okay if you think I am a moron. I get that people come at these topics with a lot of preconceptions, accurate or not. I think more people talking about their lived experience AND other people sharing links to scientific studies is one small part of making the world more safe for drug takers and non-drug takers and those people whose lives would be improved by drugs but can't get them due to fear, ignorance, stupid laws or combinations of those things. Not everyone needs to go out and take chances, but being able to accurately determine what sort of thing is actually risky versus what is just screwing around is another useful tool in the tookit. Humans are terrible at risk assessment. And being judgmental about other people's risk assessments.
posted by jessamyn at 1:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [15 favorites]
There's been a lot of articles about the roll the pharmaceutical industry and doctors have helped fuel the heroine epidemic.
"It's those damn drug pushers" is not exactly a hard story to write or sell - does that mean it's the whole of the truth? I mean I don't have a tremendous amount of concern for Purdue et. al. being treated unfairly here, and I think there's evidence that opioids have a lot of limitations as a solution for long-term pain relief. But the other side of the story is that we are very bad at addressing underlying factors that contribute to drug use, keeping opioid-dependent people alive and at helping people stop taking opioids when they want to. None of those is the easiest task but we hardly even use the tools we have.
(And anyway there's a significant "now what" issue - a proportion of pharmaceutical opioid addicts switching to illegal drugs is a predictable consequence of decreasing availability of pharmaceutical opioids. So what are we gonna do about that? Is somebody going to make sure everybody who used to take Oxycontin has access to Suboxone? How likely does that seem?)
posted by atoxyl at 2:00 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
"It's those damn drug pushers" is not exactly a hard story to write or sell - does that mean it's the whole of the truth? I mean I don't have a tremendous amount of concern for Purdue et. al. being treated unfairly here, and I think there's evidence that opioids have a lot of limitations as a solution for long-term pain relief. But the other side of the story is that we are very bad at addressing underlying factors that contribute to drug use, keeping opioid-dependent people alive and at helping people stop taking opioids when they want to. None of those is the easiest task but we hardly even use the tools we have.
(And anyway there's a significant "now what" issue - a proportion of pharmaceutical opioid addicts switching to illegal drugs is a predictable consequence of decreasing availability of pharmaceutical opioids. So what are we gonna do about that? Is somebody going to make sure everybody who used to take Oxycontin has access to Suboxone? How likely does that seem?)
posted by atoxyl at 2:00 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
Drug use is not the only area where people judge risk based on moral assessment.
posted by sanedragon at 2:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by sanedragon at 2:32 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I first heard about Dave Asprey when I was reading about nutrition and treating concussions. His suggestions were mostly not ones I'm interested in following, or unable to follow, but given that there's abso-fucking-lutely nothing that conventional medicine offers people with post-concussion syndrome, if Asprey's able to do anything to move the research along, great.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:12 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:12 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
So when is meth finally going to replace coffee in the Silicon Valley break room?
There's a fair bit of cocaine in or near Silicon Valley break rooms. This is neither a good thing nor a new thing. It's also not talked about much, but it's hardly a secret.
posted by toxic at 3:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
There's a fair bit of cocaine in or near Silicon Valley break rooms. This is neither a good thing nor a new thing. It's also not talked about much, but it's hardly a secret.
posted by toxic at 3:37 PM on January 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
I've tried macrodosing to enhance my time away from work; at the beach, the state-fair, tubing down a river, several parks, and a large number of live music performances, including at least two wherein I was one of the performers. Microdosing for work hadn't occured to me. Maybe if I get a job and an acid connection soon I'll give it a whirl.
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:22 PM on January 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
One guy wrote Fadiman to say that 10 micrograms did nothing, so he tried 25. Then, he reported, “I realized at the sales meeting that I never cared about the stupid product we were selling, so I went home.”
The writer acts as if that is an undesirable outcome.
That's how LSD is supposed to work.
Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
... or your doctor. ... or both! ba dum pum.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
The writer acts as if that is an undesirable outcome.
That's how LSD is supposed to work.
Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
... or your doctor. ... or both! ba dum pum.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:33 PM on January 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
I've read a fair amount of literature into LSD and Psilocybin studies and, from everything I've read, the potential benefit of these substances, from PTSD to addiction to palliative care, to name but a few things, is truly vast. Like "scientists are giddy", vast.
The pessimist in me (or just me) would say that we've known most of that for over 50 years.
And LSD is still Schedule I. Ridiculous!
posted by mrgrimm at 4:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
The pessimist in me (or just me) would say that we've known most of that for over 50 years.
And LSD is still Schedule I. Ridiculous!
posted by mrgrimm at 4:35 PM on January 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
And LSD is still Schedule I. Ridiculous!
So is Cannabis. They both outrank methamphetamines. Which is just...bananas man. The whole drug schedule thing is just wrecked.
Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
You realize thats a large part of what psychiatrists do, right? The drugs they prescribe people for mental health disorders are largely individual experiments. Even though they have pretty good studies and controls put into place, they're giving you a drug because they hope it alleviates symptoms and you don't have too many side effects. All the while you're going to be out in the world living your life for 3-6 weeks while that drug takes hold. Not really a controlled environment, and even the pros don't necessarily know how different medications are going to effect different people. I've been through a number of (legal, prescribed) drugs for mental health issues. At this point, my psychiatrist is just working down a list of things that might work. He's literally just going down a list because so few things have helped.
Ever since prohibition ended in Oregon, I started using CBD geared cannabis in varying degrees for symptom abatement. It's not a cure-all by any stretch, for me it's a bandaid where a couple dozen other (legal, prescribed) medications have fallen WAY short. CBD derived from cannabis just became a schedule I drug. The DEA has litterally said that this thing that kids with cancer take for symptom abatement has no medical value. This gives me very little faith in that particular mechanism to dictate what is useful and what is not, because it's very much not evidence based at all, and circumvents the scientific conversation around if it's a legit, helpful thing for some people in some circumstances.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say ever since I started using CBD cannabis, I'm a way better husband, father, worker at my job*, better neighbor, better citizen. Yup. A federally illegal substance straight up allows me to live my life. If LSD or MDMA would help, you'd be sure as fuck I wouldn't care about it's legal status.
*my actual, quantifiable job performance has gone up. I'm stoked to work a job where that's a measurable thing right now.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:10 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
So is Cannabis. They both outrank methamphetamines. Which is just...bananas man. The whole drug schedule thing is just wrecked.
Advocating taking drugs on an experimental basis in an uncontrolled environment is never going to convince me that that person is anything but a moron.
You realize thats a large part of what psychiatrists do, right? The drugs they prescribe people for mental health disorders are largely individual experiments. Even though they have pretty good studies and controls put into place, they're giving you a drug because they hope it alleviates symptoms and you don't have too many side effects. All the while you're going to be out in the world living your life for 3-6 weeks while that drug takes hold. Not really a controlled environment, and even the pros don't necessarily know how different medications are going to effect different people. I've been through a number of (legal, prescribed) drugs for mental health issues. At this point, my psychiatrist is just working down a list of things that might work. He's literally just going down a list because so few things have helped.
Ever since prohibition ended in Oregon, I started using CBD geared cannabis in varying degrees for symptom abatement. It's not a cure-all by any stretch, for me it's a bandaid where a couple dozen other (legal, prescribed) medications have fallen WAY short. CBD derived from cannabis just became a schedule I drug. The DEA has litterally said that this thing that kids with cancer take for symptom abatement has no medical value. This gives me very little faith in that particular mechanism to dictate what is useful and what is not, because it's very much not evidence based at all, and circumvents the scientific conversation around if it's a legit, helpful thing for some people in some circumstances.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say ever since I started using CBD cannabis, I'm a way better husband, father, worker at my job*, better neighbor, better citizen. Yup. A federally illegal substance straight up allows me to live my life. If LSD or MDMA would help, you'd be sure as fuck I wouldn't care about it's legal status.
*my actual, quantifiable job performance has gone up. I'm stoked to work a job where that's a measurable thing right now.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:10 PM on January 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
I'm not against the intelligent use of drugs. I think SSRIs and Adderall and Cannabis and Nicotine and MDMA and LSD/DMT/2CI/whatever people have cooked up in the last 20 years probably all have their place.
That being said, I know the guy who wrote the book on microdosing. Literally, the guy who wrote one of the top resources on amazon. Maybe not the #1 seller, but an influential person in the movement. I can confirm that there is a huge disparity between what people think is happening, internally when they microdose and how the rest of the world perceives it.
I watched this thoughtful, sensitive, humble young guy turn into an socially insensitive, awkward, sometimes aggressive asshole over the course of 6-7 months.
While extolling the virtues of microdosing to everyone, this guy slowly became more and more socially inappropriate. Sure, it could have been a chicken and egg thing, maybe he was self medicating to counter other issues. Maybe the microdosing coincided with a difficult personal period. I couldn't possibly know what else was happening in his life. I can confirm that he became very unpleasant while microdosing.
He started making strange, wildly offensive statements, he made other clients uncomfortable, he began acting out against other people at my business. Dealing with him personally became very strange. He started smiling at inappropriate times, his conversational cadence became very jarring, he'd start laughing in regards to nothing, he'd ignore basic questions, really weird non sequitur stuff.
I eventually had to ask him to leave and he seemed completely unaware of the fact that there was a problem. All I'm saying is that drugs can be great, I guess, but give yourself some time to get back to normal, find some solid ground and process what you think you've learned while in an altered state. Don't make being high status quo.
Tripping 6-7 days a week for months on end isn't good for one's perspective, it's important to ground yourself a bit. My biggest issue with psychedelics is that people believe the strange things their own brains come up with. These aren't necessarily universally true epiphanies, sometimes you just have to acknowledge that you're on drugs and people on drugs come up with some zany ideas.
posted by Telf at 7:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
That being said, I know the guy who wrote the book on microdosing. Literally, the guy who wrote one of the top resources on amazon. Maybe not the #1 seller, but an influential person in the movement. I can confirm that there is a huge disparity between what people think is happening, internally when they microdose and how the rest of the world perceives it.
I watched this thoughtful, sensitive, humble young guy turn into an socially insensitive, awkward, sometimes aggressive asshole over the course of 6-7 months.
While extolling the virtues of microdosing to everyone, this guy slowly became more and more socially inappropriate. Sure, it could have been a chicken and egg thing, maybe he was self medicating to counter other issues. Maybe the microdosing coincided with a difficult personal period. I couldn't possibly know what else was happening in his life. I can confirm that he became very unpleasant while microdosing.
He started making strange, wildly offensive statements, he made other clients uncomfortable, he began acting out against other people at my business. Dealing with him personally became very strange. He started smiling at inappropriate times, his conversational cadence became very jarring, he'd start laughing in regards to nothing, he'd ignore basic questions, really weird non sequitur stuff.
I eventually had to ask him to leave and he seemed completely unaware of the fact that there was a problem. All I'm saying is that drugs can be great, I guess, but give yourself some time to get back to normal, find some solid ground and process what you think you've learned while in an altered state. Don't make being high status quo.
Tripping 6-7 days a week for months on end isn't good for one's perspective, it's important to ground yourself a bit. My biggest issue with psychedelics is that people believe the strange things their own brains come up with. These aren't necessarily universally true epiphanies, sometimes you just have to acknowledge that you're on drugs and people on drugs come up with some zany ideas.
posted by Telf at 7:04 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
gotta say, I'm impressed at some of the judgements in this thread are appalling.
I've smoked pot for 7 years - for mental health - and used psilocybin for 2, most often microdosing 1x a week for 2-3 weeks at a time, and leaving it alone for months after that. In those two years, I have felt a strong reduction in the amount of pot I need, a better ability to cope with/handle stress, a reduction in social anxiety, and an easier time learning foreign languages.
Telf's comment above is an important anecdote though. I've known people that FRIED themselves out of existence on LSD. Some of them just did it on one dose that was too much. I've known lots of people who psychedellics have made their mental health way, way worse (almost universally, someone was malicious to them during their trip). I've also known people that say it was one of the best things that ever happened to them.
So in the end, as someone who benefited from them, having seen firsthand how psychedelics have altered people around me in ways that are hard to reconcile as, "This drug does this every time!" and "that one is good for you and this one isn't!", I have to advocate for more research across doses, environments, and subjects. I want to see those long term case studies too, but as many people pointed out, the DEA is good at preventing that kind of research from taking place.
What metric are we using for 'better worker' anyway? That topic was touched on by others and I want to mirror that sentiment.
As far as the topic at hand, having microdosed, I do it on the one day I get every 2-3 months where I don't have to do shit and just want to sit around and become a better guitar player/Chinese speaker/martial artist/whatever I feel like studying that day. I strongly recommend skipping out on the caffeine and any racetam that has anxiety-inducing side effects (oxiracetam is one), and avoid pot until the next day for maximum clarity of consciousness and all the other hippy nonsense.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 8:52 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I've smoked pot for 7 years - for mental health - and used psilocybin for 2, most often microdosing 1x a week for 2-3 weeks at a time, and leaving it alone for months after that. In those two years, I have felt a strong reduction in the amount of pot I need, a better ability to cope with/handle stress, a reduction in social anxiety, and an easier time learning foreign languages.
Telf's comment above is an important anecdote though. I've known people that FRIED themselves out of existence on LSD. Some of them just did it on one dose that was too much. I've known lots of people who psychedellics have made their mental health way, way worse (almost universally, someone was malicious to them during their trip). I've also known people that say it was one of the best things that ever happened to them.
So in the end, as someone who benefited from them, having seen firsthand how psychedelics have altered people around me in ways that are hard to reconcile as, "This drug does this every time!" and "that one is good for you and this one isn't!", I have to advocate for more research across doses, environments, and subjects. I want to see those long term case studies too, but as many people pointed out, the DEA is good at preventing that kind of research from taking place.
What metric are we using for 'better worker' anyway? That topic was touched on by others and I want to mirror that sentiment.
As far as the topic at hand, having microdosed, I do it on the one day I get every 2-3 months where I don't have to do shit and just want to sit around and become a better guitar player/Chinese speaker/martial artist/whatever I feel like studying that day. I strongly recommend skipping out on the caffeine and any racetam that has anxiety-inducing side effects (oxiracetam is one), and avoid pot until the next day for maximum clarity of consciousness and all the other hippy nonsense.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 8:52 PM on January 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Tripping 6-7 days a week for months on end isn't good for one's perspective
One thing I always wondered about this shit - LSD tends to built tolerance pretty rapidly in the short term. Do "microdosers" have to escalate their dosage over a period of time or do you reach a plateau or what?
posted by atoxyl at 9:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing I always wondered about this shit - LSD tends to built tolerance pretty rapidly in the short term. Do "microdosers" have to escalate their dosage over a period of time or do you reach a plateau or what?
posted by atoxyl at 9:21 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
atoxyl: Although I'm basing this solely on anecdotal/subjective data, my belief is that much in the same way psychedelic dosing has non-linear effects, tolerance is non-linear as well.
posted by prosopagnosia at 10:34 PM on January 6, 2017
posted by prosopagnosia at 10:34 PM on January 6, 2017
From my limited experience, sober reflection on the trip is a huge part of the benefit of psychedelics. One of the most exciting things about therapies involving psychedelics (from the little research available) is that one does not need to be under the drug's acute effects in order to experience the benefits. Being high all the time, even with microdoses, seems to me to be missing the point.
posted by sanedragon at 11:00 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sanedragon at 11:00 PM on January 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've been hearing about adding acid to a daily vitamin regime since, oh the 80's. "A little bit every day", but not in the context of work.
NEVER trust a drug that 'helps' you work longer hours. I've never wanted to hang out in the office while dosing.
And that one day at the offices of the for-real-pyramid-scam while a friend checked out some code on a server? As traumatic as the store with fluorescent lights...
posted by mikelieman at 2:57 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
NEVER trust a drug that 'helps' you work longer hours. I've never wanted to hang out in the office while dosing.
And that one day at the offices of the for-real-pyramid-scam while a friend checked out some code on a server? As traumatic as the store with fluorescent lights...
posted by mikelieman at 2:57 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Tripping 6-7 days a week for months on end isn't good for one's perspective, it's important to ground yourself a bit.
Does anyone seriously recommend this?
It seems like there's a disparity here between people who are advocating use of the drugs as tools, and people who assume it is (or treat it like it is) a lifestyle choice.
The most aggressive protocol I've seen recommended is 1/10 of a recreational dose once every four days for a month. (And this may be too much for you!) But people are people, and when they see positive effects from something, some of them will push until negative effects make themselves known.
Taking enough that you feel like you're mildly tripping nearly every day seems like a fantastically bad idea to me.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:55 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Does anyone seriously recommend this?
It seems like there's a disparity here between people who are advocating use of the drugs as tools, and people who assume it is (or treat it like it is) a lifestyle choice.
The most aggressive protocol I've seen recommended is 1/10 of a recreational dose once every four days for a month. (And this may be too much for you!) But people are people, and when they see positive effects from something, some of them will push until negative effects make themselves known.
Taking enough that you feel like you're mildly tripping nearly every day seems like a fantastically bad idea to me.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:55 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Tripping 6-7 days a week for months on end isn't good for one's perspective, it's important to ground yourself a bit.
Remember Campers, even Grateful Dead tours ended after a few weeks.
posted by mikelieman at 5:30 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Remember Campers, even Grateful Dead tours ended after a few weeks.
posted by mikelieman at 5:30 AM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
What metric are we using for 'better worker' anyway? That topic was touched on by others and I want to mirror that sentiment.
So, this is still anecdotal evidence, because it's not like it was a super controlled, research environment or anything, but when I started medicating with CBD cannabis, I worked a production job where speed and accuracy were a huge component of my job duties, and all of our work was logged against productivity standards (it was a pretty shitty job, and I'm glad I don't have it anymore...it was really bananas for a whole host of reasons).
While working there, I started taking CBD-geared cannabis in as controlled and clinical way as I could; I used extracts when I could, and measured out exact dosages. They weren't exactly like microdoses, but they weren't like recreational doses of THC cannabis either. The CBD cannabis strains that I was using acted like a scalpel against both of my depression and anxiety related symptoms. My actual production volume, and my accuracy went up. There were hard, daily production numbers to back this up, it wasn't a huge amount. I didn't turn into a superworker overnight or anything...but I sure did feel better about my shitty job, and I was able to do a better job at that shitty job.
The thing about CBD heavy cannabis is that it doesn't get you high. It's really hard to describe; its more like taking a low dose of Ativan, but even with ativan, you can feel kind of impaired. I don't drive while taking CBD, but I do ride my bike, and I don't feel impaired when I do. I know plenty of people who use ativan at work and I've taken ativan at work, and I feel way more comfortable on CBD cannabis.
posted by furnace.heart at 8:19 AM on January 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
So, this is still anecdotal evidence, because it's not like it was a super controlled, research environment or anything, but when I started medicating with CBD cannabis, I worked a production job where speed and accuracy were a huge component of my job duties, and all of our work was logged against productivity standards (it was a pretty shitty job, and I'm glad I don't have it anymore...it was really bananas for a whole host of reasons).
While working there, I started taking CBD-geared cannabis in as controlled and clinical way as I could; I used extracts when I could, and measured out exact dosages. They weren't exactly like microdoses, but they weren't like recreational doses of THC cannabis either. The CBD cannabis strains that I was using acted like a scalpel against both of my depression and anxiety related symptoms. My actual production volume, and my accuracy went up. There were hard, daily production numbers to back this up, it wasn't a huge amount. I didn't turn into a superworker overnight or anything...but I sure did feel better about my shitty job, and I was able to do a better job at that shitty job.
The thing about CBD heavy cannabis is that it doesn't get you high. It's really hard to describe; its more like taking a low dose of Ativan, but even with ativan, you can feel kind of impaired. I don't drive while taking CBD, but I do ride my bike, and I don't feel impaired when I do. I know plenty of people who use ativan at work and I've taken ativan at work, and I feel way more comfortable on CBD cannabis.
posted by furnace.heart at 8:19 AM on January 7, 2017 [2 favorites]
Tripping 6-7 days a week for months on end isn't good for one's perspective, it's important to ground yourself a bit.
You understand the concept of microdosing, right? This is the equivalent of saying "Being drunk every night isn't good for one's perspective" (probably true) to someone who is drinking a teaspoon of vodka every night and finding it helps them do whatever it is they're trying to do.
posted by jessamyn at 9:06 AM on January 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
You understand the concept of microdosing, right? This is the equivalent of saying "Being drunk every night isn't good for one's perspective" (probably true) to someone who is drinking a teaspoon of vodka every night and finding it helps them do whatever it is they're trying to do.
posted by jessamyn at 9:06 AM on January 7, 2017 [4 favorites]
The comment was talking about a microdosing advocate, so I think the suggestion is that they were actually tripping harder than they thought?
posted by atoxyl at 11:37 AM on January 7, 2017
posted by atoxyl at 11:37 AM on January 7, 2017
You understand the concept of microdosing, right?
Hi jessamyn,
Essentially what atoxyl said. As this is such a subjective thing and since the effects of LSD are both more subtle and potentially more extreme than alcohol I think we both know that drinking analogy isn't strictly equivalent.
I'm fairly familiar with the idea of microdosing and if you'd like to quibble with the verb "tripping" then I think that's a fair point for you to make.
I've known a few people who experimented with it, and getting that dose right is tricky, as it can be with SSRIs etc.
The difference between taking LSD regularly and getting your daily glass of wine is self evident. The effects of alcohol are fairly short lived and narrow. LSD really does play with one's sense of reality on a much more encompassing scale and for a longer period. Also, accidentally pouring an extra teaspoon of port obviously has different repercussions than imbibing and extra drop or two of acid.
My opening point in the above comment was that, as atoxyl stated, it's possible to get this wrong. If you asked the microdosing advocate he'd say that his productivity and confidence had gone up. If you spoke to those around him, they'd say that his work became erratic and his emotional intelligence dropped sharply. Maybe it'd be more accurate to say that he just started misinterpreting social cues in a very off putting manner. He thought he was nailing it, but obviously he got something wrong.
I just feel that with a tool as powerful as LSD, one shouldn't make it part of their daily regimen on a whim. The work productivity, life hacking language that surrounds the current conversation of microdosing seems irresponsible to me. It's impossible to be objective about things like this when you're trying to monitor your own behavior while altering it at the same time.
posted by Telf at 5:44 PM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hi jessamyn,
Essentially what atoxyl said. As this is such a subjective thing and since the effects of LSD are both more subtle and potentially more extreme than alcohol I think we both know that drinking analogy isn't strictly equivalent.
I'm fairly familiar with the idea of microdosing and if you'd like to quibble with the verb "tripping" then I think that's a fair point for you to make.
I've known a few people who experimented with it, and getting that dose right is tricky, as it can be with SSRIs etc.
The difference between taking LSD regularly and getting your daily glass of wine is self evident. The effects of alcohol are fairly short lived and narrow. LSD really does play with one's sense of reality on a much more encompassing scale and for a longer period. Also, accidentally pouring an extra teaspoon of port obviously has different repercussions than imbibing and extra drop or two of acid.
My opening point in the above comment was that, as atoxyl stated, it's possible to get this wrong. If you asked the microdosing advocate he'd say that his productivity and confidence had gone up. If you spoke to those around him, they'd say that his work became erratic and his emotional intelligence dropped sharply. Maybe it'd be more accurate to say that he just started misinterpreting social cues in a very off putting manner. He thought he was nailing it, but obviously he got something wrong.
I just feel that with a tool as powerful as LSD, one shouldn't make it part of their daily regimen on a whim. The work productivity, life hacking language that surrounds the current conversation of microdosing seems irresponsible to me. It's impossible to be objective about things like this when you're trying to monitor your own behavior while altering it at the same time.
posted by Telf at 5:44 PM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
If you asked the microdosing advocate he'd say that his productivity and confidence had gone up. If you spoke to those around him, they'd say that his work became erratic and his emotional intelligence dropped sharply.
This guy sounds like he really, really overdid it (6-7 days a week? What?) and didn't react well. But given that he's also involved in a movement, it also kind of sounds like he might have started hanging out with assholes at the same time. (I think it's likely all his buddies in that "movement" probably reinforced his perceptions of nailing it.)
But yes. It is absolutely certain that there will be people who react poorly and won't be able to accurately evaluate how they're affected. I don't think anyone's advocating doing this in isolation.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:01 PM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
This guy sounds like he really, really overdid it (6-7 days a week? What?) and didn't react well. But given that he's also involved in a movement, it also kind of sounds like he might have started hanging out with assholes at the same time. (I think it's likely all his buddies in that "movement" probably reinforced his perceptions of nailing it.)
But yes. It is absolutely certain that there will be people who react poorly and won't be able to accurately evaluate how they're affected. I don't think anyone's advocating doing this in isolation.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:01 PM on January 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
schadenfrau,
Good points in the above comment. I think you're correct across the board.
posted by Telf at 3:25 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
Good points in the above comment. I think you're correct across the board.
posted by Telf at 3:25 AM on January 8, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's not recreational drug use--it's BIO-HACKING. *scoffs at everything and everyone*
posted by ostranenie at 8:07 PM on January 8, 2017
posted by ostranenie at 8:07 PM on January 8, 2017
Tripping 6-7 days a week for months on end isn't good for one's perspective...
For me, I think it would be physically impossible. ... I've tried tripping acid more than a bit, and 1 good trip puts me out (i.e. mostly unaffected by future doses) for a few days (unless I follow it up with a very large amount). I think tolerance grows very quickly.
Anyone else know any details about microdosing and tolerance (the old guideline was 1 day on, 2 days off, I think ...)? (I'm not sure what it means for tolerance to be non-linear.)
posted by mrgrimm at 3:19 PM on January 11, 2017
For me, I think it would be physically impossible. ... I've tried tripping acid more than a bit, and 1 good trip puts me out (i.e. mostly unaffected by future doses) for a few days (unless I follow it up with a very large amount). I think tolerance grows very quickly.
Anyone else know any details about microdosing and tolerance (the old guideline was 1 day on, 2 days off, I think ...)? (I'm not sure what it means for tolerance to be non-linear.)
posted by mrgrimm at 3:19 PM on January 11, 2017
Lucy in the Sky with Protein: Key to LSD’s Psychoactive Potency Found? The discovery of how LSD changes a protein’s structure may explain why the drug is so powerful, and why its trips are so long and strange
posted by homunculus at 12:33 PM on February 2, 2017
posted by homunculus at 12:33 PM on February 2, 2017
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how did I guess
They study their bodies compulsively and trade performance secrets in the deep recesses of Reddit
imagine my shock
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on January 6, 2017 [86 favorites]