identify, capture and quickly deport
February 21, 2017 7:49 AM   Subscribe

"The Department of Homeland Security issued a sweeping set of orders Tuesday that implement President Trump's plan to increase immigration enforcement, placing the vast majority of the nation's 11 million undocumented immigrants at risk of deportation." (SLtheUSAToday)

"The memos seek to end that practice, known as “catch and release,” by ordering the construction of more jails along the southwest border to house detained immigrants until their cases are resolved."

"The new directives also allow Customs agents to send some people directly back to Mexico, whether they’re Mexican or not. Under previous administrations, people from Mexico and Canada could be deported directly back home. But people from all other countries, such as from Central America, had to detained until they could be flown back to their country of origin."
posted by Huck500 (310 comments total) 42 users marked this as a favorite
 
ordering the construction of more jails along the southwest border

christ. can someone point to a good historical/cultural/psychological primer for why Americans have such a hardon for prisons? like, it seems to be unique to this country. are there other carceral states out there where it's not just a tyrannical government, but rather an evidently willing and enthusiastic populace?
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 8:00 AM on February 21, 2017 [41 favorites]


Has anyone identified the plan for caring for the citizen children of deported parents?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:02 AM on February 21, 2017 [68 favorites]


Great. My wife has a co-worker, that they just realized has an expired Green Card (admittedly it is three years expired, but he has had a green card for 20+ years). He has an appointment to sort it out, but now I am paranoid that he may not make it back from the appointment.

The real tinfoil hat part is the rumors of Trump wanting to yank Puerto Ricans of their citizenship. I don't know the veracity of this, but the Florida Hispanic community is in a state of panic.
posted by Badgermann at 8:03 AM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


It's nice to know what we'll be protesting this weekend this early in the week, I guess.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2017 [56 favorites]


goddammit. Of all the things. OF ALL THE THINGS that we could focus on. There are real, actual problems in this country. To spend our time and energy and money JAILING PEOPLE because they don't have their 27B/6 form filled out is just insanity.

What's the plan here? How does this make anything better at all? If one single republican could explain that using honesty, and real, actual facts, that'd be something. But they can't, which speaks volumes of that party, and this administration, and half the country frankly.

If this country doesn't end up split in two within twenty years I will be flabbergasted.
posted by nushustu at 8:05 AM on February 21, 2017 [79 favorites]


Has anyone identified the plan for caring for the citizen children of deported parents?

Repeal the 14th Amendment, revoke their citizenship?
posted by uncleozzy at 8:07 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


why Americans have such a hardon for prisons?

We'll the current prison system makes a lot of money and provides millions of people as basically slave labor. I'm assuming these prisons will also have "work programs" to fix when all of our food is dying on the vines because there's not enough laborers to harvest it.
posted by mayonnaises at 8:09 AM on February 21, 2017 [55 favorites]


Off to punch some fucking nazis.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:10 AM on February 21, 2017 [12 favorites]


Prisons in the desert are forced labor camps.
posted by Optamystic at 8:11 AM on February 21, 2017 [32 favorites]


A nonexpired greencard probably isn't all that meaningful either these days TBH. Or even citizenship, if you've got the wrong look.
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


If one single republican could explain that using honesty, and real, actual facts, that'd be something.

Not a Republican, and I hate this policy, but I think it goes like this:

1. Illegal immigrants benefit from US services without being here legally.
2. US dollars should go to US citizens only.
3. Just like you'd lock your house, you should lock your borders.
4. Immigrants vote for Democrats. (See Ann Coulter's book on this)

#3 isn't a fact, of course, it's a metaphor and a feeling. But the way people feel has tremendous impact. To fight this, we can't only stay in fact land, we have to move hearts and minds too.

And on that note, what if these moves over 4 years mean Florida can no longer be won by Republicans? And Arizona? And one day Texas? California tried this kind of anti-immigrant stuff in the 90s and the GOP never recovered. So that's what I'm rooting for, nation-wide.
posted by jragon at 8:15 AM on February 21, 2017 [41 favorites]


What's the plan here? How does this make anything better at all?

They do not punish because they desire an outcome, they punish because they like to punish. Any good outcomes that derive from it are happy accidents. This is a show of raw power, a strategy unto itself. Inspire fear in others to lessen it in yourself.

In other words, like Batman, but much, much stupider.
posted by Harvey Jerkwater at 8:16 AM on February 21, 2017 [64 favorites]


can someone point to a good historical/cultural/psychological primer for why Americans have such a hardon for prisons?

Ava Duvernay's 13th (available on Netflix!) makes a compelling case that imprisonment is the current incarnation of the American desire to keep an underclass, traceable from slavery through Jim Crow to our current spin on "how to get slave labor prices while still ostensibly claiming to support liberty."
posted by Greg Nog at 8:17 AM on February 21, 2017 [82 favorites]


Context, from the New Yorker: The Border Patrol Was Primed for President Trump
The President’s immigrant-bashing on the campaign trail, along with his repeated promises to deport millions of people, appealed to many patrolmen. His rhetoric reaffirmed a vision of law and order forged on the front lines by the agents themselves, rather than from the top down. It also legitimized some creeping hostility toward immigrants. “You can feel the racism with some of the guys,” the [anonymous Border Patrol] agent told me. “They say stuff like, ‘these illegals should go back to their own countries.’ There’s some real hatred there.”

...

[James] Tomsheck, who joined the C.B.P. during George W. Bush’s Presidency, told me that the attitude at Border Patrol had always been “us against the world.” A particular gripe among patrolmen was a policy known, pejoratively, as catch and release, in which migrants who were apprehended near the border were released pending a hearing before an immigration judge. During the Clinton years, eighty per cent of migrants who were released after their initial apprehension never showed up for their appointed court date. Border Patrol agents felt undermined. Politicians kept issuing sweeping edicts on immigration policy from Washington, while the agents were left to deal with the fallout. One official said in 2014, “There was a lack of intestinal fortitude to address the border. We were being overrun.”
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:17 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


The problem with the "last gasp for conservatives" theory is they intend to make it the last gasp for everybody.
posted by Artw at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2017 [47 favorites]


For-profit prisons make a lot of coin for a lot of people.

Plus I think as a culture we romanticize prison in an extremely unhealthy way. Ballads, music, movies, mythology, porn, novels -- all draw on and reinforce this pool of drama that contains powerful elements like; courage, loyalty, injustice, despair, anger, rage, sex, contraband, and lots and lots of violence. It can be very intoxicating.
posted by jfwlucy at 8:18 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


Private prisons provide a perverse incentive to imprison people. White Americans are a vengeful people, fundamentalist religion encourages judgement rather than mercy, and our distrust of science means that data about punishment vs. rehabilitation never makes a dent.

But mainly the private prisons.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:19 AM on February 21, 2017 [23 favorites]


. . . did Mexico agree to us deporting all of these non-Mexican citizens there?
posted by Garm at 8:19 AM on February 21, 2017 [18 favorites]


Christ, this is chilling: "ICE agents should also arrest and initiate deportation proceedings against any other undocumented immigrant they encounter." That, combined with hiring 10,000 more agents and building a bunch of new prisons to house all the folks they round up, effectively makes this a new internment camp program.

I know it's easy with the goddamn Trump administration to feel deadened from swimming every day against the constant churn of norm-breaking, illegal, sleazy, and outrageous behavior. But this -- I just have a cold, sinking feeling about it. Maybe we're still a ways from the end, but you can start to see it coming. The final wrap party for this American experiment. The endarkenment faintly rising out there just over the horizon.
posted by informavore at 8:21 AM on February 21, 2017 [18 favorites]


I don't know if the deportees are actually getting deported anyware. Vast interment camps seem the likely outcome. And then we'll all be surprised when they turn out to be death traps.
posted by Artw at 8:21 AM on February 21, 2017 [27 favorites]


A nonexpired greencard probably isn't all that meaningful either these days TBH. Or even citizenship, if you've got the wrong look.

Note that the purpose of the jails that will be built is to detain people "until their cases are resolved". I.e., the concentration camps we're building are not for people who have been convicted of any crime or proven to be in violation of immigration law or anything like that. They're for people who ICE or CBP think might be in violation of immigration law.

So, yes, we're going to be putting a lot of permanent residents and citizens into these concentration camps. And, oh dear, we're just so swamped with all these cases, we can't be bothered to verify anybody's status.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:22 AM on February 21, 2017 [79 favorites]


. . . did Mexico agree to us deporting all of our non-Mexican citizens there?

The Trump administration seems like they've got a concerted plan to destabilized Mexico as much as possible and have no real regard for the consequences for America (not to mention Mexico). A trade war to undermine their economy? Dumping people with no connection to the country across the border without any plan in places to support them or return them to countries where they might have a support network? We have giant border with Mexico; we should want Mexico relatively prosperous and peaceful, but somehow "winning" the relationship seems more important than that to the people in charge.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:23 AM on February 21, 2017 [16 favorites]


christ. can someone point to a good historical/cultural/psychological primer for why Americans have such a hardon for prisons? like, it seems to be unique to this country. are there other carceral states out there where it's not just a tyrannical government, but rather an evidently willing and enthusiastic populace?

Watch the movie "13" on Netflix. It's over-simplified in parts and covers a lot of the territory that has been covered better in more depth elsewhere, but it does gather up the idea that, once slavery was abolished in the US, there had to be something to do the same things that slavery did, namely, keep a certain population (black men, mostly) under control and cheap labor. The prison system very effectively filled that void.
posted by xingcat at 8:24 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


Is there any room for a push to get nonracist people to apply for those 10,000 new ICE jobs? And for the new jobs at CPB?

I don't know if it would matter if the law they're working under and the climate of ICE and CPB .... but it certainly can't help that so many of the CPB people are Trumpists.
posted by nat at 8:25 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]




Today at CPAC:

"If Heaven Has A Gate, A Wall, And Extreme Vetting, Why Can't America?"

O.k. I'm no theologian, but Jesus, as some would have it, would maybe not be down with this:

ICE raided a football practice for 7yr olds yesterday in LA. They took my friend's undocumented cousin-- leaving her 7yr old son at practice
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:27 AM on February 21, 2017 [48 favorites]


Is there any room for a push to get nonracist people to apply for those 10,000 new ICE jobs? And for the new jobs at CPB?

it's a job creation scheme for thugs and neo-Nazis, non-racists joining ICE isn't going to happen.
posted by Artw at 8:27 AM on February 21, 2017 [27 favorites]


Artw, that's a seriously defeatist attitude. Yeah, the sky is falling-- but saying "we're not gonna do anything cause nothing will work" is useless.

You're not wrong that it's a job creation scheme for thugs and neo-Nazis-- but on the other hand, govt jobs tend to have fairly strong equal employment opportunity constraints. If a sleight of completely qualified non-Trumpists applied, and were rejected, there'd be an opportunity for court cases about it.

And some of such people could get hired, and if they did, I think it would (marginally) improve the situation.
posted by nat at 8:30 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


The new directives also allow Customs agents to send some people directly back to Mexico, whether they’re Mexican or not.

OH MY GOD HE IS DOING THE VERY FIRST FUCKING THING HE ACCUSED SOMEONE ELSE OF DOING WHEN HE STARTED HIS GODDAMN CAMPAIGN.

Sorry. I can't not scream, in any format. This will be known as the Gilded Mirror Era, I swear to the fucking heavens it will.
posted by Etrigan at 8:31 AM on February 21, 2017 [16 favorites]


Is there any room for a push to get nonracist people to apply for those 10,000 new ICE jobs? And for the new jobs at CPB?

I once applied for a job at law firm (their name wasn't on the listing) that when I got there turned out to be a job evicting people. Just sitting in L&T court all day evicting people. They invited me for a callback and I said no, because I couldn't stomach doing that work. Given the policies and priorities in place from the Trump administration, I doubt many good people opposed to racism would be able to stomach doing it. On the one hand, sure it's great in an abstract way, but you'd still be enforcing racist policies, and you'd still have to be able to get up everyday and do that. I doubt you'd find many people able.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:32 AM on February 21, 2017 [31 favorites]


Is there any room for a push to get nonracist people to apply for those 10,000 new ICE jobs? And for the new jobs at CPB?

This is a bit like asking if we could have people who value privacy to become TSA screeners, or people opposed to murder to become soldiers. The individual can't change a system by upholding its directives, and is quickly fired if they don't uphold its directives; they're little more than warm bodies that can either facilitate the system or (briefly) fuck it up, at great personal cost. Steinbeck noted the same thing about the banks repossessing farms in the Dust Bowl:

Some of the owner men were kind because they hated what they had to do, and some of them were angry because they hated to be cruel, and some of them were cold because they had long ago found that one could not be an owner unless one were cold. And all of them were caught in something larger than themselves. Some of them hated the mathematics that drove them, and some were afraid, and some worshiped the mathematics because it provided a refuge from thought and from feeling. If a bank or a finance company owned the land, the owner man said, The Bank—or the Company—needs—wants—insists—must have—as though the Bank or the Company were a monster, with thought and feeling, which had ensnared them. These last would take no responsibility for the banks or the companies because they were men and slaves, while the banks were machines and masters all at the same time.
posted by Greg Nog at 8:33 AM on February 21, 2017 [86 favorites]


"The new directives also allow Customs agents to send some people directly back to Mexico, whether they’re Mexican or not."

When you start running your government like a gag from Johnny Dangerously, something is deeply wrong.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 8:34 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


If a sleight of completely qualified non-Trumpists applied, and were rejected, there'd be an opportunity for court cases about it.

And some of such people could get hired, and if they did, I think it would (marginally) improve the situation.


Yeah, I said the same thing at the outset of the Iraq War. "If I get out, then all that's left is people who really do like this shit." It is fucking exhausting, and I don't begrudge anyone who isn't doing it, and I have no idea whether I had any effect whatsoever, because it's a big fucking millstone that grinds a shitload more grain than I can see, much less affect.

I mean, I can hope, but I think such effort is better aimed at a political solution.
posted by Etrigan at 8:34 AM on February 21, 2017 [17 favorites]


In re: to the idea of "let decent non-Trump supporters apply for these jobs", that wouldn't change anything. It is sort of like the "not all cops are racists and murderers" argument. That may be true, but they are still propping up a very broken, very racist system. You can have good people apply for those jobs, but I suspect the winning applicants for them will be the kind of people who will happily round up and deport people.
posted by Kitteh at 8:34 AM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


Artw is not being defeatist, he's being realistic. The folks in charge of hiring want other racists working for them. And even if you got in, it'd be like you were the one non-racist cop in your department. There's nothing you can actually do to mitigate the racism. It's not about individual actors, it's structural. You have to tear down the structure if you want it to stop being racist.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:35 AM on February 21, 2017 [18 favorites]


"If Heaven Has A Gate, A Wall, And Extreme Vetting, Why Can't America?"

At least in evangelical Christianity, the "extreme vetting" for heaven consists of repentance and turning to God for salvation. No background check, no fee, no waiting period, and for most versions of evangelical Christianity it lasts a lifetime and can't be rescinded. Just declare yourself to the authorities and off you go.

Sounds like a pretty good model for US immigration policy to me, actually.
posted by jedicus at 8:36 AM on February 21, 2017 [36 favorites]


Why the fuck would anyone with even a basic sembelence of humanity join ICE? It's not a neutral thing, you'd have to actively enjoy tearing families apart and terrifying people. Awful and racist as the police are most places they are probably better than ICE.
posted by Artw at 8:37 AM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]




Has anyone identified the plan for caring for the citizen children of deported parents?

I will bet you five American dollars they are hoping citizen children of illegal immigrants will leave to be with their parents, thus removing themselves from the voting pool.
posted by corb at 8:41 AM on February 21, 2017 [51 favorites]


Why the fuck would anyone with even a basic sembelence of humanity join ICE?

This. These are Tom Clancy-LARPing racists and they're chomping at the bit to put people in camps.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:42 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


From the previous thread:

Note that these actions include repealing the "sensitive locations" memo (more information), which means that they've now lied twice about what's going to happen. In the meantime, we can look forward to ICE agents raiding these places (language directly from the 2011 memo carving out exceptions for "sensitive locations"):
  • schools (including pre-schools, primary schools, secondary schools, post-secondary schools up to and including colleges and universities, and other institutions of learning such as vocational or trade schools);
  • hospitals;
  • churches, synagogues, mosques or other institutions of worship, such as buildings rented for the purpose of religious services;
  • the site of a funeral, wedding, or other public religious ceremony; and
  • a site during the occurrence of a public demonstration, such as a march, rally or parade.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2017 [22 favorites]


The problem with the "last gasp for conservatives" theory is they intend to make it the last gasp for everybody.

Yeah, it's less a fact based theory than a wish fulfillment fantasy...

This all should scare the hell out of everybody. Remember, the Holocaust started out with similar policies aimed at relocating the Jewish population. People were able to use that little rhetorical fig leaf to rationalize appeasement and ignore the horror of the unofficial reality until it was too late in that case. Some have even speculated the Holocaust wasn't originally the policy aim but just a result of the Nazis incompetence at actually carrying out a relocation program--like the real horror was the banality of the thinking behind the smaller, plausibly reasonable-seeming but shallowly thought through steps that led to the bigger horror. It's been suggested it was as much the widespread indifference to the Nazi's victims fates as active malice that allowed it to happen.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:45 AM on February 21, 2017 [73 favorites]


I'm partially thinking of this as a way to tear down the structure, FWIW-- I'm assuming most non-racists wouldn't get hired, and then that's actionable.

But Etrigan has a really good point - anyone who did get hired would get seriously ground down.

So what else is actionable? Do the children, US citizens who are left behind, have standing to claim they are harmed? (They are harmed, but do they have standing, and is there anything a court would actually strike down here?)
posted by nat at 8:49 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


10,000 ICE agents is half the size of the california national guard.

it's an army.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:50 AM on February 21, 2017 [37 favorites]


Has anyone identified the plan for caring for the citizen children of deported parents?

That would require that Republicans care about other people's children.

You must be new here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:50 AM on February 21, 2017 [53 favorites]


so from what i can tell, people who are unable to produce proof of legal residence are now basically detainable and deportable at will, which in practical terms means they can be warehoused at private prisons. ice can go raid schools, hospitals, and churches, and round up brown people whose detention will enrich the companies that run the detention centers. this is terrifying, outrageous, and sickening.

i am counting down to the due process challenge, but that is only one piece of this very ugly puzzle.
posted by prefpara at 8:51 AM on February 21, 2017 [20 favorites]


> 10,000 ICE agents is half the size of the california national guard. it's an army.

But, but, but ... the Federal hiring freeze!
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:51 AM on February 21, 2017 [21 favorites]


I posted an outline in the main thread that should've gone here, but this is particularly alarming:

Establishment of Programs to Collect Authorized Civil Fines and Penalties
As soon as practicable, the Director of ICE, the Commissioner of CBP, and the Director of USCIS shall issue guidance and promulgate regulations, where required by law, to ensure the assessment and collection of all fines and penalties which the Department is authorized under the law to assess and collect from aliens and from those who facilitate their unlawful presence in the United States.


"Penalties" here assuredly means asset seizure and forfeiture.

10,000 ICE agents is half the size of the california national guard.

Most of the blue state voters live in the 100 mi "border zone" and its 4th amendment exceptions. These are the new brownshirts. The VOICE office is straight out of Goebbels' playbook.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:51 AM on February 21, 2017 [39 favorites]


These are the new brownshirts. The VOICE office is straight out of Goebbels' playbook.

And what they are proposing is the unambiguous actual friggin' literal dictionary definition of concentration camps.

History of internment and the term "Concentration camp"
The American Heritage Dictionary defines the term concentration camp as: "A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as suspect."

The Polish historian Władysław Konopczyński used the term concentration camps when describing events in Poland during the Bar Confederation rebellion (1768–72), when the Russian Empire established three prison camps for Polish captives awaiting deportation to Siberia.

The United States set up concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s. In 1864, the U.S. government forced 8,000 Navajos to walk more than 300 miles at gunpoint from their ancestral homelands in northeastern Arizona and northwestern New Mexico to an internment camp in Bosque Redondo, a desolate tract on the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico. From 1863 to 1868, the U.S. Military persecuted and imprisoned 9,500 Navajo and 500 Mescalero Apache. Living under armed guards, more than 3,500 Navajo and Mescalero Apache men, women, and children died from starvation and disease.
posted by Buntix at 8:54 AM on February 21, 2017 [43 favorites]




There are an estimated 50,000 Irish illegal immigrants in the U.S.; 30,000 of them are thought to live in New York City. Today, this tiny corner in the northern reaches of the Bronx is perhaps the most heavily Irish-born neighborhood in New York, and advocates believe that as many as 40% of local immigrants are undocumented.

will they be rounded up and shipped back to Ireland? and then those in Boston area?
posted by Postroad at 8:57 AM on February 21, 2017 [52 favorites]


"Penalties" here assuredly means asset seizure and forfeiture.

And also, potentially, diversion and seizure of remittances being sent through Federally controlled channels.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:58 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Not a Republican, and I hate this policy, but I think it goes like this:

1. Illegal immigrants benefit from US services without being here legally.
2. US dollars should go to US citizens only.
3. Just like you'd lock your house, you should lock your borders.
4. Immigrants vote for Democrats. (See Ann Coulter's book on this)

#3 isn't a fact, of course, it's a metaphor and a feeling.


#1 isn't much of a fact either. Illegal immigrants can't access very many services but yet still pay many taxes (like social security) that they will never get the benefit from. Not to mention that they get paid less in general and so line the pockets of their American employers.

In other news, I'm worried about my friend in San Antonio, who is a third-generation Mexican American but could possibly get swept up in a raid and put in a camp because of her last name and somebody deciding she had insufficient documentation. I mean, that seems very probable now, doesn't it?
posted by emjaybee at 9:01 AM on February 21, 2017 [21 favorites]


And what they are proposing is the unambiguous actual friggin' literal dictionary definition of concentration camps.

Indeed. And I refuse to call them anything else.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:02 AM on February 21, 2017 [9 favorites]


Meanwhile, in Canada: Fearing Trump, Asylum Seekers travel across US-Canada border, regardless of risk

I'm very worried that there are going to be some bodies turning up in the fields of Manitoba and Minnesota come the spring thaw.
posted by nubs at 9:02 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


10,000 ICE agents is half the size of the california national guard.

it's an army.


The California National Guard is, like most modern militaries, about 1/10th "trigger-pullers". Probably less than that, all things considered, because National Guards have weird top-heavy rank and command structures.

If we're talking about 10,000 actual ICE agents -- not ICE employees, but agents -- then that's even bigger of an army than you think it is. It will require 100,000 administrators and leaders and logisticians and trainers and suchlike. It will quintuple ICE's current size. It will be the largest federal agency outside the DoD and VA, and that includes 23 Cabinet-level departments.
posted by Etrigan at 9:03 AM on February 21, 2017 [39 favorites]


If a non evil person did get a job inside one of these organizations, they might be forced to go along with some evil stuff in order to not get fired. But they could do some good for example by leaking from within the organization, providing intel to anti fascist forces, or documenting events from within areas that are under media blackouts.
posted by rustcrumb at 9:03 AM on February 21, 2017


My outline of red flags from the DHS Enforcement memo:
  • Priorities in deportation include:
    • aliens who DHS determines have "committed acts that constitute a chargeable offense" (without any actual charges filed)
    • aliens who have "abused any program related to receipt of public benefits"
    • aliens who "in the judgment of an immigration officer, otherwise pose a risk to public safety or national security"
  • Secure Communities Program to be restored (liason with local LEO), forms to be re-issued for "more efficient" cooperation
  • "To maximum extent possible" removal proceedings against incarcerated aliens are to be pursued and "administrative removal...shall be used in all eligible cases"
  • INA 287(g) program allows a "qualified" state or local LEO to serve as an "immigration officer" for all intents and purposes of the Immigration and Nationality Act, program to be expanded to "all qualified law enforcement agencies."
  • All DHS personnel to have "full authority to arrest and initiate removal proceedings" against any alien on "probable cause" and to refer cases for criminal prosecution.
  • Victims of Immigration Crime Engagement (VOICE) office will report on the criminal acts of aliens.
  • ICE/DHS to release monthly statistics and reports on "aliens apprehended by ICE". These reports to incldue the following information:
    • "country of citizenship, convicted criminals and the nature of their offenses, gang members, prior immigration violators, custody status of aliens"
    • "if released, the reason for release and location of their release, aliens ordered removed, and aliens physically removed or returned"
  • Additional weekly reports on releases of aliens by non-Federal agencies/jurisdictions to be compiled and provided by ICE. Weekly reports to contain:
    • "the name of the jurisdiction, the citizenship and immigration status of the alien, the arrest, charge, or conviction for which each alien was in the custody of that jurisdiction, the date on which the ICE detainer or similar request for custody was served on the jurisdiction by ICE, the date of the alien's release from the custody of that jurisdiction and the reason for the release, an explanation concerning why the detainer or similar request for custody was not honored, and all arrests, charges, or convictions occurring after the alien's release from the custody of that jurisdiction."
  • DHS/ICE/CBP etc policy to be "aligned with Federal law" stripping aliens of Privacy Act protections, and thus allowing release of their Personally Identifiable Information in support of the measures above.
  • All funding for any outreach or advocacy programs for "illegal aliens" will be terminated and redirected to fund VOICE.
  • ICE to hire 10,000 new agents immediately, plus necessary support staff and legal staff.
  • ICE and CBP directed to increase efforts re: "assessment and collection" of all authorized "fines and penalties" (i.e. asset forfeiture) against "aliens and those who facilitate their presence in the United States."
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:03 AM on February 21, 2017 [55 favorites]



will they be rounded up and shipped back to Ireland? and then those in Boston area?

Nope, they will surely be shipped to Mexico...... 'cause incompetence and all....
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 9:04 AM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


If we're talking about 10,000 actual ICE agents -- not ICE employees, but agents -- then that's even bigger of an army than you think it is. It will require 100,000 administrators and leaders and logisticians and trainers and suchlike. It will quintuple ICE's current size. It will be the largest federal agency outside the DoD and VA, and that includes 23 Cabinet-level departments.


republicans are the party of small government and fiscal responsibility
posted by murphy slaw at 9:05 AM on February 21, 2017 [36 favorites]


So does anybody have plans or suggestions for how we can shelter our undocumented immigrants? I'm thinking this is gonna turn out a lot like when people are sheltering Jews during the Holocaust.
posted by yueliang at 9:06 AM on February 21, 2017 [17 favorites]


Destabilizing Mexico is necessary in order to prove that the wall is needed.
posted by aramaic at 9:06 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


This is disgusting, but watch the construction of these internment camps get called "infrastructure investment" that will provide "JOBS JOBS JOBS" (along with all these new ICE-related jobs.)
posted by maudlin at 9:07 AM on February 21, 2017 [16 favorites]


Meanwhile, in Canada: Fearing Trump, Asylum Seekers travel across US-Canada border, regardless of risk

My worry is that this will be used against the current Liberal government. The Conservatives are already sowing seeds of "well, we don't know what these people are like and they might be the wrong kind of refugee." Those little towns in Quebec and Manitoba are manned by good folks, but they don't have the capacity to make sure everyone gets in safely 24/7. I'd like the Liberal government to figure out how to help the towns and the refugees come here. Send more help is a start.

See Tony Clement get pissy this morning on the radio when he was asked about what he and the Conservatives mean when they want the illegal border crossing laws enforced.
posted by Kitteh at 9:09 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


>1. Illegal immigrants benefit from US services without being here legally.
>2. US dollars should go to US citizens only.

Nah, that can't be it--they don't want US citizens getting any services either.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 9:09 AM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


somebody deciding she had insufficient documentation

And that's just it. Look in your wallet and purse. How much do you have that proves you are a citizen ?

I have a passport, but it's in the safety deposit box. I might have a birth certificate in my safe at home. Maybe.

But I don't carry any of them with me, and who does ?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:09 AM on February 21, 2017 [38 favorites]


I wonder if they will have rallies and parades and shit.
posted by Artw at 9:10 AM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


where does the money to implement this plan come from when the budget process is so far behind that it will require another emergency bill to keep the government's doors open in april?
posted by murphy slaw at 9:10 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


this is a nightmare. i am horrified.
posted by prefpara at 9:11 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


This is disgusting, but watch the construction of these internment camps get called "infrastructure investment" that will provide "JOBS JOBS JOBS" (along with all these new ICE-related jobs.)

And the 10,000 agent jobs plus support positions will be a sop to the WWC segment of Trump's base that already blames immigrants for their employment struggles. Watch where this hiring happens. CBP already recruits on alt-right blogs and etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:11 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


"4. Immigrants vote for Democrats. (See Ann Coulter's book on this)"

Citizens. Fucking legal naturalized citizens vote Democrat.

I'm trying really hard to not open the mental door that looks to the horrors of what makes a person become an illegal immigrant because I just can't cope with that misery and desperation right now, but it's important that we know that, just like refugees, naturalized citizens who vote Democrat aren't illegally here.

So either repubs don't understand that there's a difference, or they don't give a shit and they fully intend to ignore the documentation that cost me thousands of dollars and took me several years to complete.

Obviously the latter.
posted by Tarumba at 9:12 AM on February 21, 2017 [48 favorites]


Destabilizing Mexico is necessary in order to prove that the wall is needed.

This won't cause a need for a wall, it'll cause a need for a war. And don't think they don't know it, either.
posted by Etrigan at 9:12 AM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


California tried this kind of anti-immigrant stuff in the 90s and the GOP never recovered. So that's what I'm rooting for, nation-wide.

CA didn't follow that up by disenfranchising all possible liberal populations.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:12 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


But I don't carry any of them with me, and who does ?

If this is not stopped, we're all going to have to.

where does the money to implement this plan come from when the budget process is so far behind that it will require another emergency bill to keep the government's doors open in april?

Hopefully nowhere. Hopefully there are so many delays, legal challenges, and budgeting problems that this nightmare can't be implemented. Fingers crossed.
posted by emjaybee at 9:12 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


So does anybody have plans or suggestions for how we can shelter our undocumented immigrants? I'm thinking this is gonna turn out a lot like when people are sheltering Jews during the Holocaust.

States and cities are going to have the first and best opportunity to resist this, we need to demand that and support it.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:13 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


What's the plan here? How does this make anything better at all?

It tightens the unskilled labor market. I mean, we can argue all day and I'm not exactly going to argue against the racism angle, because duh, but there are a significant swath of Americans whose opinions in the abstract of Mexican or C. American people qua people is flexible, but see their presence as part of the national blue-collar job decline. This is, frankly, an argument that is not wholly without merit, because although you can find economic analyses that show the value of illegal labor (illegal, frequently, on both sides of the equation: both in that the person performing the labor isn't allowed to provide it, and the person buying the labor frequently isn't paying legally-mandated rates for it) to the US economy, much of that value seems to accrue to people far above the economic level where the labor market slackness hurts.

To use an oft-cited example: most people who are legally eligible to work in the US wouldn't be interested in picking strawberries for sub-minimum wage, but in the absence of people who were, the wages would increase—given the equally unpleasant jobs people do for $15/hr, I suspect you'd start getting takers in an idealized labor market somewhere around there. This would, of course, increase the price for strawberries at the supermarket, but since the cost of picking is only about 6% of the retail price, a 300% or even 500% increase in wages would probably only translate to a buck or so at retail.

Paying extra for strawberries probably seems like a pretty good tradeoff if you are, or think you are, potentially one of the beneficiaries of a tighter market for unskilled labor. If the knock-on effect of the tightening is even a small raise in your hourly wage, it's going to outweigh the heightened cost of produce (and also, I rather strongly suspect that the demographics of fresh produce consumption do not favor people at the low end of the labor market, although it'd be nice if some of our enormous farm subsidies went to fixing that).

You can go through a basically-identical analysis for a lot of the goods that are produced in large part with sub-minimum-wage labor. And even when you get into the above-minimum-wage industries that have large numbers of undocumented workers, e.g. residential home construction, it's not clear why someone not in the market for a new house really ought to care if the costs suddenly increased.

Like much in the economy, the de facto immigration policy currently in force (which is basically: unlimited immigration but only to unskilled or low-skilled jobs, and for shit rates and with no worker protection) seems suspiciously well-tuned to keep the costs of things that the people who run the economy care about—produce, wine grapes, new houses, privately-paid care workers and health aides, restaurant food, etc.—inexpensive, while strong labor-market protections abound at the higher end. It's... certainly very convenient. (The one exception would be the H1B program and its use to effectively inject liquidity into the STEM labor pool, but even there—and it's a pretty touchy subject in places—the minimum salary is $60k, so it can't depress wages too far.)

Now, taking all that on premise, the reasonable solution (effect per dollar of enforcement) would be to go after employers who hire, or cause to be hired through intermediaries, people who are not eligible to legally work in the US. I absolutely, without any doubt at all, guarantee you that you could make more of a dent in illegal labor-force participation with a handful of accountants and special prosecutors, armed with some minimal changes to existing law to eliminate the biggest loopholes that allow shady arms-length-but-not-really arrangements between farms and "staffing companies" and similar. No ICE gestapo or secret desert prisons required. The people who are here illegally in the US just for jobs would leave, and the people who have actual community ties here would presumably stay, and with that difference made clear, I suspect there would be increased public support for a path to citizenship in order to allow those people who remained, and thus do have legitimate community ties, to legally work and participate with full protections in the labor market. It's reasonable, it wouldn't require a lot of creepy new laws, and because we live in a shitty universe it'll probably never, ever happen.

The difference between what we are seeing implemented, and what a reasonable solution looks like, is where you can tell that something else is going on. And it's in that difference that I think you can make a convincing argument to people of various political stripes (well, not the hardcore racists, of course). If the Trump Administration was really interested in going after illegal workers, they'd just need to enforce the laws on employers, and everything else would sort itself out. That they are not doing that is how you know the wool is being pulled over their own supporters' eyes, and something else is going on.

That is an argument that I have found is very tractive when talking to people, such as my family in Appalachia, who are not intrinsically anti-immigrant but are very directly affected by the market for low-skilled labor. Others who are discussing this with a varied or potentially pro-Trump audience may want to consider approaching it from a similar perspective and framing.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:14 AM on February 21, 2017 [187 favorites]




Those little towns in Quebec and Manitoba are manned by good folks, but they don't have the capacity to make sure everyone gets in safely 24/7. I'd like the Liberal government to figure out how to help the towns and the refugees come here. Send more help is a start.


The problem, at least from my perspective of a person who has only a limited understanding of the process, is the provisions of the Safe Third Country Agreement. Basically, they can't enter Canada from the US legally and claim asylum; they have to cross illegally and then surrender (which, if you've seen some of the videos, is them basically walking straight into the arms of the waiting RCMP) If the Trump administration is going to continue actions that drive asylum seekers into Canada like this, we need to look at that agreement so that they can come across at legal entry points and surrender there.

But yes, more people and more resources are going to be needed to help these communities with this as well.
posted by nubs at 9:16 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


The first hour of today's 1A was a good discussion of immigration policy under Trump. He did have a guy on for a bit from the National Border Patrol Council and probed him for the CBP perspective. I was prepared to be totally hostile to his points, but he gave a pretty good account of what it's like to be trying to work in enforcement while various administrations and Congresses dilly-dally and spar without actually solving anything. They are expected to detain people, but under Obama let them go, so it seems to be in direct opposition to their job's purpose and a lot of them end up supporting whoever will support them (as they see it). He made a comment about the CBP being half Hispanic so I looked it up. I found this annual diversity report from 2014 [PDF] and he's not quite right unless the trends have drastically changed, but it does show 34% Hispanic/Latino and 6.9% African American, with 4.7% Asian. Armed CBP officers are slightly *more* likely to be Hispanic at 38.9%, which was a surprise to me.

The real issue is that with obvious racists in power, I can't have any trust in any enforcement policies Trump advances. If it was as part of a package with amnesty, streamlined/increased legal immigration and naturalization, protections for abuse victims, and an overarching written and stated affirmation of the human rights of *everyone* - not just citizens - then I'd support consistent enforcement. But we're a long way from that.
posted by freecellwizard at 9:16 AM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


My hope here is that these fuckers are far too incompetent to implement a project on this scale.

But this comment of Saul Goodman's is a chillingly plausible rebuttal to that line of thinking: "Some have even speculated the Holocaust wasn't originally the policy aim but just a result of the Nazis incompetence at actually carrying out a relocation program."

Indeed it is much easier to smash stuff than to create order... including people, I guess.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:17 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


Pogo_Fuzzybutt

Depending on the state, they may have already verified your legal residency status.

The REAL ID act is in place, or being put in place in most states. I moved from California to Florida about 6 years ago and had to verify my citizenship just to get a driver's license. Since I am a citizen, I now have a gold star on my Florida ID.
posted by Badgermann at 9:18 AM on February 21, 2017


If the Trump administration is going to continue actions that drive asylum seekers into Canada like this, we need to look at that agreement so that they can come across at legal entry points and surrender there.

I want our participation in the Safe Third Country agreement completely revoked. Abso-fucking-lutely.
posted by Kitteh at 9:19 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


Kadin your math works unless the response to "no more undocumented ag workers" is not "hire U.S. citizens at better wages" but instead "force prisoners to do the work, i.e., slavery."

In other words, it could very well end up that instead of someone coming over, working at low wages, and going back to Mexico, someone comes over, gets arrested, works for nothing as a prisoner, and may never get to go home. Which is where I suspect they want to go.
posted by emjaybee at 9:20 AM on February 21, 2017 [47 favorites]


Postroad, and just south of that part of the Bronx is where I live (most of those Irish immigrants live in Woodlawn and just over the Westchester border in Yonkers). There are hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world in my neighborhood, namely the DR, Mexico, Korea, the Balkans, various African and Western Asian countries, etc. I've seen loads of warnings in my FB feed of friends warning each other to be on the lookout for ICE officers in Brooklyn and Queens.

As a light brown mixed-race African-American US citizen born in Wisconsin who routinely gets mistaken for various ethnicities, but usually a Hispanic from the Caribbean, I'm starting to wonder if I should carry my passport at all times in case some ICE officer stops me on the street!
posted by droplet at 9:20 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


Aside from the racism behind this, it's super-weird for them to be doing this when unemployment is really low.
posted by drezdn at 9:20 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


This will be known as the Gilded Mirror Era

the age of Robber Barrons
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 9:21 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


I want our participation in the Safe Third Country agreement completely revoked. Abso-fucking-lutely.

I have no idea about what the STCA covers beyond this bit about asylum seekers, so I have no idea if the whole things needs to go or what, but clearly it isn't working in terms of it putting more people at risk all across the board - asylum seekers, RCMP, etc.

Maybe I'll do some digging so that I can craft an intelligent missive to my MP, for all the good that will do - he's a low-energy cretin on the Opposition bench.
posted by nubs at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


>Kadin your math works unless the response to "no more undocumented ag workers" is not "hire U.S. citizens at better wages" but instead "force prisoners to do the work, i.e., slavery."


Yeah, I think Trump's plan is to put everyone in jail except himself.
posted by Catblack at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Politically, WTF are they thinking doing all of this horrible controversial stuff so soon and so unsubtlely? On the one hand, yes, it might be terrifying evidence that they never intend to hold a free and fair election again, so they can do whatever they want. On the other hand, I do not believe they can be said to have consolidated power yet. If they would just keep their heads down for a while, they could do this stuff slowly and quietly under the radar while keeping up the appearance of normality, with which people seem desperately ready to cooperate. Why so splashy and so soon, while they are still vulnerable? Do they even care if this stuff actually happens, or are they just posturing foe their base?
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


Aside from the racism behind this, it's super-weird for them to be doing this when unemployment is really low.

That and just in general the choice of focus for the first 30+ days of the presidency does not exactly reassure me. It seems like on every topic (environment, immigration, consumer protection) they're just kicking everyone to the ground and punching down.
posted by freecellwizard at 9:24 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


Indeed it is much easier to smash stuff than to create order... including people, I guess.

That's exactly it. If they aren't really people to you anymore, just philosophical zombies who can only spout self-serving stories that are necessarily selfish lies--as some radical Atheist followers of Dawkins et al even on the self identifying left spectrum believe is true of all humans anyway--then it becomes really easy to just throw up your hands and say, fuck it, just throw them all in the fire. They're just wood.

Liberals think like this too sometimes. It's not a political thing so much as psychosocial. The right and al-Right and faux leftist provocateurs like Milo see nothing but philosophical zombies everywhere and encourage others to see each other that way, too.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:25 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


I have to say, as a non-American, the whole situation it has become is ... weird. I mean, so basically you get a group of people who social and economic circumstances make them seek jobs (and sometimes a life) elsewhere. You have a target country which will happily employ illegal immigrants and have make their economy at least in part dependant on it. You end up with millions of illegal immigrants firmly embedded in the economy. And the solution is to let them stay illegally? It's insane. It makes no sense whatsoever. Its bad for all concerned. Now clearly the solution is not to just go on a deportation binge; that is a stupid solution for all concerned, but the idea that the right solution is to ignore the law is crazy. The only remotely sane solution is a path to citizenship, and then have laws that are actually usable. Unusable laws create exactly this kind of insanity.

Although Trump is way out of line here, the real enemy is your legislature which has failed to fix a broken set of laws; as set which has been broken for decades, and created this situation where simple enforcement of the law becomes inhumane (and likely economically unviable).
posted by Bovine Love at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


Aside from the racism behind this, it's super-weird for them to be doing this when unemployment is really low.

According to Trump, it isn't low, it's somewhere between 18 and 42% depending on how he's feeling.
posted by Garm at 9:26 AM on February 21, 2017 [9 favorites]


According to Trump, it isn't low, it's somewhere between 18 and 42% depending on how he's feeling.

Yeah I imagine he'll be feeling 4% when he's been in office a year or so.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:30 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


Do they even care if this stuff actually happens, or are they just posturing foe their base?

It's Bannon's fever dream plus Trump's horseshit dealmaking, and the hangers-on pursuing their particular agendas.

If it happens as attempted, great. If not, it's the opening offer, Trump gets to do his bullshit magnanimous compromise for a half-horror, and everything less attention getting (i.e. short of a cataclysm) timed to happen at the same time can be pushed through with less resistance.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:30 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


My thoughts on potential evil Bannon plan effects:

schools (including pre-schools, primary schools, secondary schools, post-secondary schools up to and including colleges and universities, and other institutions of learning such as vocational or trade schools);

If you do this, even a few raids of, say, the parents of students, illegal immigrants will stop sending their children to school. Even children born in the US. This will make them less employable later, and also less likely to vote, more likely to be imprisoned.

hospitals;


If illegal immigrants can't use hospitals, even to give birth, you have less likelihood of births going well, which means less citizen-children of illegal immigrants.

a site during the occurrence of a public demonstration, such as a march, rally or parade.

This means everyone wanting to march will have to consider their immigration status before doing so, and the immigration status of their family members, which also means less turnout.
posted by corb at 9:30 AM on February 21, 2017 [54 favorites]


"Is there any room for a push to get nonracist people to apply for those 10,000 new ICE jobs?"

I know one person who was dying to work for ICE. He is one of the worst pieces of shit I have ever met in my life. His family lied their way through the refugee processin the 90s, and resettled here. He is a full - on Serbian nationalist who cried when Milošević died.

This man, who fraudulently obtained refugee status by pretending to be his own hero's victim, whose family fraudulently uses every welfare benefit from food stamps to Medicare, this man hates illegal immigrants and once told me he wants to work for ICE so he can arrest people from my South American country. Who, he assured me, got to the Mexican border by train (he specified the country because I guess it gave him satisfaction to humiliate me).

I hid my fury well and laughed at him, told the motherfucker to learn some geography since there is no train over the Panama Canal.

Stupid put down but he was fucking furious haha.

In conclusion: not many decent people want those jobs.
posted by Tarumba at 9:31 AM on February 21, 2017 [61 favorites]


This is Lotte.

When she was 17 years old her civil rights were restricted. Soon after she was relocated to a Jewish district within her home city of Vienna.

On her 21st birthday she was deported to a ghetto in Poland.

Within the year her mother sent a postcard from the ghetto to family in the USA, telling them that Lotte's father had died in a typhus epidemic and begging them to buy them more canned sardines through the Red Cross.

A few months later their ghetto was liquidated and she was sent to Sobibor or Belzec and gassed. Her remains were burned and pulverized and buried in the forest.

She was my cousin.

The time to fight this is right now.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:31 AM on February 21, 2017 [195 favorites]


Remember when Obama and Holder were going to work on some grand project to reverse the tide voter disenfranchisement? When I went looking for any tiny of shred of hope, after seeing this thread, that there would be some kind of actual, public resistance *fucking concentration camps* from heavyweights and people with influence, the other headline I saw was about Eric Holder taking a job at Uber.

I can't believe this is happening. It is happening here, right before our eyes, and not a single headline on my google news feed calls them camps.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:32 AM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


I considered applying for ICE when that memo dropped, out of the same motivation that made me stay in the Army during the Iraq War. Then I realized that was fucking insane and in no way would that be a good idea. I wouldn't put too much faith in this.
posted by corb at 9:32 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


Citizens are already detained and deported. This is going to make that much worse. I don't even know what to do with this. Part of me hopes there isn't enough competence/money to really implement this on a large scale, but it's going to cause so much harm even if it's small scale.
posted by Mavri at 9:33 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


Politically, WTF are they thinking doing all of this horrible controversial stuff so soon and so unsubtlely?

Because it works. The sooner they do it, the sooner it becomes the new normal and come election time, it's all kissing babies and closing polls early.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:36 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


And the solution is to let them stay illegally? It's insane. It makes no sense whatsoever.

1. Many undocumented immigrants don't stay here. They migrate back and forth.
2. Getting a green card/becoming a citizen is costly. People who come here desperate for work are the last people who have that kind of money.
3. Undocumented immigrants are not a significant source of crime. In general immigrants are more law-abiding than otherwise.
4. There were no immigration controls in this country until the 19th century, and those were driven by racism, not real safety concerns. Exactly whether and what kind of controls we need now is a question that never gets asked; like you people assume that "some kind" of controls are needed for "safety" but are vague as to what they should be and why. We need to have that conversation before enacting more laws.

I won't argue that our government has been ineffective-to-harmful on immigration, but I will argue that "immigration reform" is vastly overblown as a problem. And as kadin pointed out, if you are upset by the exploitation aspect, the simplest/least costly way would be to crack down on those who hire undocumented immigrants and abuse them.

In general, yes, I see no evidence that immigrants are a threat to our country, whether or not they are documented.
posted by emjaybee at 9:37 AM on February 21, 2017 [42 favorites]


Part of me hopes there isn't enough competence/money to really implement this on a large scale, but it's going to cause so much harm even if it's small scale.
I don't think that incompetence is going to stop them. It's just going to kill detainees. And the money isn't a problem, because it's all going to go to private prison companies, and there's always money for them.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:37 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


If anyone knows of any protests in DC on this, today or later in the week, please let me know; I don't have representatives so protesting is basically all I can do.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 9:38 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


This isn't about immigration. It's about ethnic cleansing.
posted by theodolite at 9:40 AM on February 21, 2017 [88 favorites]


I'm an Australian, with Swedish heritage. My national shame is that we've imprisoned a few thousand people, including children, on prison islands. Now we don't know what to do with them. It makes me ashamed to be Australian, I thought we were better than that. Even worse, we're trying to send them to the US!

But that's not what I'm thinking of. As a foreigner who's ethnically scandinavian, I bet being 'illegal' wouldn't be a problem for me in the US. For super obvious reasons.

Back in 2007, I caught the Hope thing. This is it! Racism is over! It was a giddy high, but it lasted only a moment. The backlash was overwhelming. Birthers. Now a birther is president, and the backlash is given a perceived mandate.

Racist laws are back. And not just in your country. We have our own version of a wall, our own xenophobia, and we're an island. To add to the absurdity, my parents were Swedish immigrants. Lucky for me the Swedes have fair skin, that's what makes me Australian!

I'm so tired. There's fuck all I can do about it over here. How can I fight this?
posted by adept256 at 9:41 AM on February 21, 2017 [13 favorites]


So demography will pretty much doom Republicans within 20 years or so right? I'd like to suggest a poker analogy. Conservatives are going all in with the equivalent of a pair of 2s, hoping to deport, depress, and eliminate the more brown voting pool before it overwhelms them. They want us to fold. It's high stakes but we have the winning hand... We just have to stick around until the end.
posted by Glibpaxman at 9:42 AM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


They are not planning on the US existing as a democracy in 20 years.
posted by Artw at 9:43 AM on February 21, 2017 [40 favorites]


So demography will pretty much doom Republicans within 20 years or so right?

I wasn't planning to have kids but now part of me wants to add 5 non-white future Democrats to the cause.
posted by Tarumba at 9:46 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


"The new directives also allow Customs agents to send some people directly back to Mexico, whether they’re Mexican or not. Under previous administrations, people from Mexico and Canada could be deported directly back home.

The absurdity of saying the US will send non-Mexicans "back to Mexico" just makes me want to weep and/or throw things.
posted by desuetude at 9:50 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


From this article linked earlier:
“Demographics are not destiny,” Craig Varoga remarked to me at the end of a long conversation. “But demographics with hard work and smart decisions are destiny."
That hard work and smart decisions part will be the rub, and just not-folding won't get things there.
posted by Drastic at 9:50 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


On what basis can the US force Mexico to accept people who aren't Mexican citizens?
posted by zachlipton at 9:58 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


I considered applying for ICE when that memo dropped, out of the same motivation that made me stay in the Army during the Iraq War. Then I realized that was fucking insane and in no way would that be a good idea. I wouldn't put too much faith in this.

If you haven't read the recent article in Mother Jones about hanging out with border militias and their cozy interactions with the CBP, I recommend it. These are the kind of guys that are going to be running to sign up for these agent jobs first.
An agent named Dennis, his baseball cap cocked backward, introduces himself to Fifty Cal. He says he is an intelligence officer for the Border Patrol, and he tells Fifty Cal and Ghost they'd spotted us using infrared technology.
...
"I love my job," Dennis says. "I have days where I'm like, 'Fuck this. This is the worst mistake I've ever made.' But most of the time, if I sit back and I think about it, I come in and play hide-and-seek, steal weed off of people, steal vehicles from people—legally—and watch Netflix."..."I love having y'all out here, man," Dennis continues. "It impresses me that you guys come out and do my job for me for no pay at all." He pulls business cards out of his wallet and hands one to Fifty Cal and one to Ghost. "Give me a good heads-up next time you guys are gonna come down. If you plan on coming to the Nogales area, since you're out in Colorado maybe I can take a trip out and give you guys an unauthorized brief. Or at least give you something in writing so you guys can brief and whatnot." Ghost and Fifty Cal shake his hand. "Then when y'all get down here I can link up with you again and whatnot." He says he does the same with another militia that does ops down here.
...
Fifty Cal tells us to circle up. "We got two ops that we want to plan, based off the intel that we got from the Border Patrol last night about a drug run that may be coming in," he says. "They showed us the area of the fence they come through and the rough times that they think they're gonna be coming in. We'd need to leave camp at about 0300 tomorrow."
...
The other day, a Border Patrol agent showed up with two boxes of doughnuts. I asked him whether they ever get any pressure from their superiors in Washington, DC, about us being around. "Not that I ever heard of," he said. "When you guys come through, they warn us like, 'Heads up, those guys are out there.' Good!"

I later asked the agency to comment on these interactions between its officers and militiamen. A spokesman only replied that the agency "appreciates the efforts of concerned citizens as they act as our eyes and ears" but "does not endorse or support any private group or organization taking matters into their own hands." Fifty Cal told me he's still in touch with his Border Patrol contacts "pretty much weekly." The agents "give us very useful information to help make our ops better," including recommendations for times and areas to patrol.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:59 AM on February 21, 2017 [27 favorites]


Detention centers are generally full of inhumane treatment but I don't want this to go unstated: trans women in particular have reported abuse and sexual abuse in detention centers. Google will get you a lot of articles from good sources. Sorry I don't have time to do a deep dive.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 9:59 AM on February 21, 2017 [14 favorites]


Also there were reportedly ICE raids in Elizabeth NJ the other day. Northeast states, don't be complacent
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 10:02 AM on February 21, 2017 [9 favorites]


This Google Doc has a bunch of resources on pushing for "expanded sanctuary" in your communities and how to protect and defend immigrants.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:03 AM on February 21, 2017 [23 favorites]


There's going to be mission creep. Don't think their reign of terror starts and ends with immigrants.
posted by Artw at 10:03 AM on February 21, 2017 [42 favorites]


"...Fines and penalties against anyone who harbors an illegal alien..."
So anyone who helps an immigrant or who has a coworker whose green card expired or a mother who is here without documents - say goodbye to your house, your car and your bank account....
What about sanctuary churches? Will they also face fines and penalties?
This is crazy!
posted by SyraCarol at 10:06 AM on February 21, 2017 [15 favorites]


"On what basis can the US force Mexico to accept people who aren't Mexican citizens?"

On the basis that we're a first world country when we want to brag, but if not, we can just go ahead and be like Bhutan because USA that's why.
posted by Tarumba at 10:07 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


"We'll have to hide our friends and neighbors" isn't speculative or hypothetical any longer. All of us probably won't have to, but some of us will. It'd be wise to work out the logistics and have the relevant conversations ASAP.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:07 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


christ. can someone point to a good historical/cultural/psychological primer for why Americans have such a hardon for prisons?

Prison is the "welfare" system for non-white Americans that white Americans are willing to pay for.

And yes, this is about creating a culture of fear and intimidation, with magahatted CBPers and local cops as its eager agents, and the Bloody Shirt Agency as its propaganda wing. Institutionalised spite and fear are easy wins for the basest of the base, and they'll gladly take that over widget factory jobs in the Rust Belt.

ICE to hire 10,000 new agents immediately, plus necessary support staff and legal staff.

Yeah, I'm sure the screening for that will be thorough. No Abu Ghraib scenarios at all.
posted by holgate at 10:09 AM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


I wonder if there will be a "religious freedom" exemption for people who feel their religious faith requires them to shelter immigrants.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:09 AM on February 21, 2017 [34 favorites]


Religion is only okay if it is racist.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I'm sure the screening for that will be thorough. No Abu Ghraib scenarios at all.

The screening will filter out any deviants who would refuse to abuse and torture.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:11 AM on February 21, 2017 [9 favorites]


Now, taking all that on premise, the reasonable solution (effect per dollar of enforcement) would be to go after employers who hire, or cause to be hired through intermediaries, people who are not eligible to legally work in the US.

I don't think anyone really cares about efficient per dollar enforcement. If we have enough money to hire 10,000 ICE agents + support staff + build prisons, there is no reason why we couldn't have spent the money on setting up a proper guest worker program with 10,000 inspectors to watch out for labor abuses, wage withholding, and worker safety. Who's main function would be that and not deporting people, because as soon as you do that, you'll just drive everyone underground and make your job harder to do. Police in immigrant heavy cities know this, which is why they are largely not actively participating in immigration raids.
posted by FJT at 10:14 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


i'm this close to calling up Jerry Brown's office and asking him to use the CA national guard and highway patrol and fucking dogcatchers to gather up all ICE agents and drop them off in the middle of the high desert in nevada

that's bound to be productive, right
posted by murphy slaw at 10:15 AM on February 21, 2017 [30 favorites]


"We'll have to hide our friends and neighbors" isn't speculative or hypothetical any longer. All of us probably won't have to, but some of us will. It'd be wise to work out the logistics and have the relevant conversations ASAP.

How this is done is well established. Word of mouth, overlapping social networks through sympathetic social groupings. Private residences, private vehicles. Beyond that I see Catholic churches and possibly Catholic universities and religious orders with residential facilities playing a potentially huge role given the demographics of the targeted populations and the strong statements by the Pope already out there.

Trying to use a bunch of technology is probably the wrong way to go, except for the very small number of people who actually know how to use crypto-systems reliably and not compromise them. I wouldn't trust myself to with that without a lot more practice and training, it's beyond most people who might be willing to shelter someone or help them travel.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:15 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


I wonder if there will be a "religious freedom" exemption for people who feel their religious faith requires them to shelter immigrants.

You mean like Paul Ryan?
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:16 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


i mean I could make the argument that this order is a targeted attack on California's agricultural sector, right?
posted by murphy slaw at 10:20 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


i'm this close to calling up Jerry Brown's office and asking him to use the CA national guard and highway patrol and fucking dogcatchers to gather up all ICE agents and drop them off in the middle of the high desert in nevada

Caltrans is sort of like an armored division. Minus the shooty stuff.

Maybe we can literally tar and feather them.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:21 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


murphy slaw, i am this close to calling Jerry Brown and Eric Garcetti's offices in a panic all "welp, we live in a nazi state now! time to take up arms and be the resistance! hope we can agree that should be california's official position!"

If any of you have ever, in your life, thought never again, or never forget, or I don't know, goddamn cried at some emotionally manipulative Holocaust movie, CONGRATS, now you know what you would do if that happened again! Because it's about to!
posted by yasaman at 10:24 AM on February 21, 2017 [19 favorites]


My best friend is a high school teacher in Oakland -- she estimates at least half of her students -- bright, funny kids -- have parents who may be deported. I can't even imagine the terror these families are living through; trying to create safe and stable homes for their families, living in small apartments with extended family, and ALL they want is a future for their kids. It's all about love for these people who come to parent conferences and are SO DAMNED GRATEFUL for everything my friend and her co-workers do daily.

And for these kind and caring and wonderful parents to be rounded up and thrown out is just so fucking awful and sick-making. These are kids headed to college, kids who code, kids who make murals celebrating America and their family pride -- and all of this work and love and trying to create a better future and world, all to get their families torn apart.

I'm sick to call myself an American. I do not stand for this kind of hatred.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 10:25 AM on February 21, 2017 [42 favorites]


i'm this close to calling up Jerry Brown's office and asking him to use the CA national guard and highway patrol and fucking dogcatchers to gather up all ICE agents and drop them off in the middle of the high desert in nevada

Nah, they never built Yucca Mountain.
posted by Etrigan at 10:25 AM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


Hold up, what happened to the idea that for every new regulation, the agency needs to eliminate two old regulations?
posted by janey47 at 10:28 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


Hold up, what happened to the idea that for every new regulation, the agency needs to eliminate two old regulations?

It turns out they can also eliminate two constitutional amendments for every new regulation.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:29 AM on February 21, 2017 [27 favorites]


Yeah, I'm sure the screening for that will be thorough. No Abu Ghraib scenarios at all.

Law enforcement hiring binges are a bad idea. Look at the infamous DC Police cadet classes of 1989 and 1990, congress mandated an immediate growth of 50% and the results were awful.

I've harped on it before, Border Patrol and CBP already suffer from endemic corruption and a dysfunctional culture resulting from well-intentioned but badly executed growth. Shortcuts in the screening process, which they are pushing to further weaken, have led to hiring not just bad apples and the dregs that couldn't get a job in other agencies, but actual cartel and gang members.
posted by peeedro at 10:29 AM on February 21, 2017 [23 favorites]


From Kadin's excellent comment,

If the toddler Administration was really interested in going after illegal workers, they'd just need to enforce the laws on employers, and everything else would sort itself out

It strikes me that this line of reasoning is similar to laws and policing that punish women who sell sex, and not the pimps or the johns. If the government really wanted to shut down prostitution, they would enforce the laws on those who buy it -- those who have the money. As it is, they just punish the victims of human trafficking.

The owner class looks out for itself, through governmental action that punches down, in every case.
posted by Dashy at 10:37 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


I wonder if there will be a "religious freedom" exemption for people who feel their religious faith requires them to shelter immigrants.

There certainly should be, and it's not a bad angle to push. I don't see it getting far, but it might peel some supporters off when they slap it down.
posted by corb at 10:38 AM on February 21, 2017


Make them arrest nuns.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:39 AM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


From a couple of weeks ago, but newly relevant again: "Inside Steve Bannon's fever dream of an American Gulag."
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:40 AM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


So this is happening now too: US Customs block Canadian man after reading his Scruff profile

Long story short, US Customs assumes gay man must be an escort, denies entry. A couple of months later, on a second attempt with proof he was gainfully employed, but with a clean(ish) phone: "They said, ‘Next time you come through, don’t have a cleared phone,’ and that was it. I wasn’t let through."

We're back to soft no-entry lists again, this time including everyone the alt-right doesn't like, it appears.
posted by bonehead at 10:42 AM on February 21, 2017 [15 favorites]


2. US dollars should go to US citizens only.

#2 has a mistaken assumption, too. Undocumented immigrants pay far more in taxes than they get back. Those "US dollars" aren't all from citizens.
posted by msbrauer at 10:44 AM on February 21, 2017 [15 favorites]


In a coincidence Hernandez v. Mesa is today, and the amicus brief from former CBP agents makes for scary reading, e.g. "The Use Of Excessive Force By Border Patrol Agents, Along With High Rates Of Corruption And Misconduct, Is A Consequence Of Increased Militarization And Inadequate Screening And Training"
posted by idb at 10:44 AM on February 21, 2017 [20 favorites]


If you want to help, SanctuaryNotDeportation offers MANY ways to get involved. There ARE things you can do to help.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 10:50 AM on February 21, 2017 [29 favorites]


Immature thought but why can't Bannon shave regularly or keep a non-douche hairstyle? and maybe wash his face once in a while?

I mean for a guy who's so proud about his phenotype you'd think he'd aim higher than "pasty and unkempt".
posted by Tarumba at 10:51 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


Meanwhile--and this is a bit too inside baseball to make the mainstream news--USCIS is wrongfully rejecting slews of perfectly good applications and petitions for no known reason. It's happening to immigration attorneys all over the country. In my small office alone, it's happened about seven times in the past three weeks. You submit a flawlessly completed N-400 application for naturalization, with properly dated forms and the correct filing fees, and USCIS sends it back claiming that the forms were improperly dated and the fee amount was wrong. It's demonstrably false, and it's happening again and again, and we're furious, and our clients are furious, and nobody knows why.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:51 AM on February 21, 2017 [116 favorites]


Immature thought but why can't Bannon shave regularly or keep a non-douche hairstyle? and maybe wash his face once in a while?

Dude sleeps in a vat of gin.
posted by Artw at 10:52 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


> It's demonstrably false, and it's happening again and again, and we're furious, and our clients are furious, and nobody knows why.

You do know why.
posted by rtha at 10:53 AM on February 21, 2017 [42 favorites]


I guess we're still in the phase of denial where we'd rather attribute it to mass incompetence rather than malice, but I don't know how much longer that can last. How could they be so blatant?
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:55 AM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


You do know why.
The thing is, you don't. Maybe they're fucking with people, and I guess they could just be incompetent, but it's possible that they're delaying things because they know there's some sort of policy change in the works that will make it harder for currently-eligible people to become citizens.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:00 AM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


...this is a bit too inside baseball to make the mainstream news...

I think there are plenty of people in the mainstream news who'd be interested in following up on this. Have you tried contacting anyone yet? One place you can reach out to is ProPublica: suggestions@propublica.org
posted by neroli at 11:02 AM on February 21, 2017 [12 favorites]


I guess we're still in the phase of denial where we'd rather attribute it to mass incompetence rather than malice, but I don't know how much longer that can last. How could they be so blatant?

Because they have both houses of Congress and the Executive, and they're going to do their best to unbalance the Federal judiciary and the Supreme Court.

Maybe they're fucking with people, and I guess they could just be incompetent, but it's possible that they're delaying things because they know there's some sort of policy change in the works that will make it harder for currently-eligible people to become citizens.

These things are in no way mutually exclusive.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:03 AM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


Hold up, what happened to the idea that for every new regulation, the agency needs to eliminate two old regulations?

It turns out that only means they have to "identify" 2 regulations that someone theoretically might want to repeal, so it's even more meaningless than was reported at the time. It's a repeated pattern with the administration where they use a whole bunch of bombastic language to say what they're doing and then when you look at the text of what was signed, it's either meaningless or just suggests that maybe someone should look into this and come back with recommendations. Yet another aspect of the constant fog of lies, half-truths, and half-assedness coming out of the Trump administration is that they even lie about what they're doing, especially when making bold pronouncements will get the headlines they crave and relatively few will bother to check the text when they bother to release it days later.
posted by Copronymus at 11:13 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


I teach poor immigrants at a community college. If I hear that one of my students has been fucked with, I am going to lose my shit. I read their essays about all different parts of Africa, where they are from. I had a refugee from the Rwanda genocide. A refugee from the Ebola outbreak in West Africa. All sorts of civil war refugees.

I am just so motherfucking angry and ashamed of my country right now.
posted by angrycat at 11:13 AM on February 21, 2017 [46 favorites]


My wife has a co-worker, that they just realized has an expired Green Card (admittedly it is three years expired, but he has had a green card for 20+ years). He has an appointment to sort it out, but now I am paranoid that he may not make it back from the appointment.

I would strongly recommend your wife's co-worker seek the advice of an immigration attorney before they attend this meeting at the very least (best case, have the attorney come with them to the meeting).
posted by longdaysjourney at 11:14 AM on February 21, 2017 [26 favorites]


I have a passport, but it's in the safety deposit box. I might have a birth certificate in my safe at home. Maybe. But I don't carry any of them with me, and who does ?

I have my passport with me, but I started doing that as an affectation years ago of "tralala I am free to jet off to Paris on a whim now" and right now that feels like such a privileged position.

...I have a feeling that this is a topic very much on the minds of folks where I work, since a number of people employed here, at all levels up to and including the president himself, are either temporary or permanent residents, or are refugees themselves. I am sure that there are some high-up meetings taking place now to discuss this issue.

This also puts the request I just got for an employee verification letter for one of our staff in a poignant light, since it's for updating their green card. I usually turn those things around pretty fast anyway, but now it seems even more important to do so.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:14 AM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Welcome to The Hair Club for Trumps.
posted by y2karl at 11:16 AM on February 21, 2017


Kadin your math works unless the response to "no more undocumented ag workers" is not "hire U.S. citizens at better wages" but instead "force prisoners to do the work, i.e., slavery."

In other words, it could very well end up that instead of someone coming over, working at low wages, and going back to Mexico, someone comes over, gets arrested, works for nothing as a prisoner, and may never get to go home. Which is where I suspect they want to go.


Slavery is only legal in the United States for convicts. You cannot enslave prisoners until they have been convicted of something. See the 13th amendment.

In order for mass detention to translate into mass slavery they would need mass trails and after the trials the detention would end with either deportation or freedom so there won't be anybody around for the slavery.

Assuming the constitution is still in play.
posted by srboisvert at 11:17 AM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


It's not with unlawful detainees currently. They're in a no man's land of indefinite detention law with no protections. They'd make a perfect slave labor force. And notice, there's been no slow down on private detention facility construction, even under Obama.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:19 AM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


#2 has a mistaken assumption, too. Undocumented immigrants pay far more in taxes than they get back. Those "US dollars" aren't all from citizens.

There are also around 13 million documented immigrants who are not citizens. Hi there, I'm one.
posted by srboisvert at 11:20 AM on February 21, 2017 [21 favorites]


Are there any guidelines somewhere about what I should be carrying with me as someone who could be profiled as a potentially illegal immigrant? Or how I should answer any questions about my immigration status?

I would prefer not to carry my passport with me, because I tend to lose stuff easily, but I am not white, and I have an accent. I thought about carrying a color copy, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea.
posted by Tarumba at 11:21 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


srboisvert: we jail people for illegal reentry all the time, then deport them. It's the most common charge in the federal system. It's not "deportation or freedom"; it's frequently "prison then deportation."
posted by zachlipton at 11:22 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


There's a worrying tendency for all the words tand statuses to combine and get lumped into one ball, like they way Trump refered to refugees coming here from Australia as part of a program as "illegals".
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]




>>2. US dollars should go to US citizens only.

You mean like through Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and similar programs? Let's be serious, these guys don't think US dollars should go to US citizens either.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:23 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


You just pay detainees a dollar a day and then it's not slavery.
posted by SyraCarol at 11:34 AM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


My wife has a co-worker, that they just realized has an expired Green Card (admittedly it is three years expired, but he has had a green card for 20+ years). He has an appointment to sort it out, but now I am paranoid that he may not make it back from the appointment.

What expires is the green card, which is proof of status. His status as an LPR doesn't expire with the green card; he's still just as much a legal permanent resident as he was before the card expired. And he'll be dealing with boring, slow, but probably basically well-meaning USCIS people who are trying to serve immigrants, not Gestapo larpers from ICE.

If he's from a country that tolerates dual nationality, this is also a good time to file the N-400 so he can vote against that motherfucker next time. Even when it doesn't work, that shit feels goooooooooooood.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:35 AM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


Are there any guidelines somewhere about what I should be carrying with me as someone who could be profiled as a potentially illegal immigrant?

It looks like a copy of your birth certificate [PDF] is the thing to have.

Presumably also the general advice for situations where you are likely to face police persecution:
* have the number of a good lawyer or support org.
* don't say anything till you have legal representation.

https://shop.aclu.org/product/ACLU-Know-Your-Rights-Stopped-by-Police-Immigration-FBI
posted by Buntix at 11:37 AM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


"They said, ‘Next time you come through, don’t have a cleared phone,’

The mind boggles.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:39 AM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


Are there any guidelines somewhere about what I should be carrying with me as someone who could be profiled as a potentially illegal immigrant? Or how I should answer any questions about my immigration status?

From Incite:

Know Your Rights In Case of Immigration/Police Raid

It's important the immigrant population be prepared and informed regarding their rights before, during, and after any immigration/police raid takes place. The following information provides important recommendations as to what you should or should not do if you are detained by immigration or your local police, or other authorities.

Before a raid:

Be prepared and plan ahead.

Contact an immigrant advocate, attorney, or qualified community agency and be well-informed abut your rights.

Know what documents you should carry with you at all times. It is advisable to carry a state ID or a driver’s license. These documents contain information about you and contain no information at all about your immigration status or your country of origin.

Do no carry any documentation brought from your country of origin.


Do not carry false documents with you.

If possible, carry a card that states you wish to exercise your right to remain silent for use in case you are interrogated by immigration/police officers. These cards are usually available from immigrant-rights organizations in your area.

Always carry the name and the phone number of any immigration advocate, a lawyer, and/or an agency who will provide you with advice and other help in case the immigration/police detains you.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:40 AM on February 21, 2017 [26 favorites]


Yes, let's make sure this country is all about the rule of law.

Except for Emoluments.
posted by DigDoug at 11:54 AM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


But I don't carry any of them with me, and who does ?

- me
- my dad
- most latino immigrants i know
- pretty much everyone i know who ever had JUDEN or similar written on their papers
posted by poffin boffin at 12:02 PM on February 21, 2017 [29 favorites]


So demography will pretty much doom Republicans within 20 years or so right?

no. not without nonwhite immigration.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:10 PM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


> It looks like a copy of your birth certificate [PDF] is the thing to have.

Ha ha ha ha! I have a copy of mine - but it's the "short form" from Hawaii! Do I even exist? Am I even a person? Probably not!

I renewed my passport last fall, and the process all went as expected. I'm damn glad I did it then, because just yesterday I think I read about a guy - a US citizen, the born-here kind - who sent his off for renewal but got a letter back saying he had to regularize his green card status and make an appointment at the nearest USCIS office.

How can you regularize a status you do not have and never held?
posted by rtha at 12:11 PM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


- most latino immigrants i know

I personally do not know any Latino immigrants who carry their passports or green cards with them.

it's a difficult decision because you want to keep those documents safe (like in a safe box or at least at home), but then you also want them accessible at all times.

And then I am sure I am not the only immigrant who is weary of handing original documents to authorities. they could "lose" them or "accidentally" destroy them.

The sites recommended above say driver's license is enough, but it's so anxiety producing to know that at some point it might not be.
posted by Tarumba at 12:13 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Anyone who wants to carry their US passport on a day-to-day basis may want to look into getting a passport card.
posted by Tiny Bungalow at 12:18 PM on February 21, 2017 [12 favorites]


It also costs a ridiculous $455 to replace a green card, which would make pretty much anyone at least think twice about carrying it around with them all the time.
posted by zachlipton at 12:18 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


My darkly paranoid suggestion is to set up a one button text/email app that will alert your attorney to your situation before you're held incommunicado, or get a wearable GPS tracker with SMS service and panic button. Something like that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:19 PM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


I personally do not know any Latino immigrants who carry their passports or green cards with them.

ok, i'm talking about passport holding naturalized us citizens, not green card holders.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:20 PM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


I know it's way too late in this thread to bring this up...

But I highly recommend reading this thread while listening to Rage Against The Machine at a volume slightly lower than what will immediately hurt your ears.

It's helping me get through it.
posted by el io at 12:20 PM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm reading this thread while imagining the members of the Trump WH opening the Arc of the Covenant.

God that would be fucking satisfying.
posted by angrycat at 12:27 PM on February 21, 2017 [14 favorites]


It also costs a ridiculous $455 to replace a green card, which would make pretty much anyone at least think twice about carrying it around with them all the time.

I do it. It's shitty but that's the law and I don't want to spend the night downtown, possibly 30 days in federal prison, and complicate my next renewal, just because some immigration officer is having a bad day and I'm feeling self-righteous.
posted by Talez at 12:31 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


ok, i'm talking about passport holding naturalized us citizens, not green card holders.

Social Security card? Not a great thing to carry around security wise. But might be something to consider for both groups. (I think you need to be either a citizen, LPR or authorized student/worker a for a SS card to be issued. Not an option for some dependents, I guess...)
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:31 PM on February 21, 2017


or get a wearable GPS tracker with SMS service and panic button. Something like that.

You could even have it trigger when it registered arriving at any sort of ICE processing facility.

On the other hand if you are looking to evade a hostile state apparatus it may not be good to voluntarily carry a tracking device. (Without some sort elaborate chaff setup, anyway).
posted by Buntix at 12:32 PM on February 21, 2017


I'm reading this thread while imagining the members of the Trump WH opening the Arc of the Covenant.

God that would be fucking satisfying.


They all look sort of melted already though.
posted by Artw at 12:34 PM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


Just yesterday, no joke, I thought 'Why can't we send Bannon off to find the Headpiece to the Staff of Ra?"
posted by eclectist at 12:35 PM on February 21, 2017


On the other hand if you are looking to evade a hostile state apparatus it may not be good to voluntarily carry a tracking device.

Yeah some Internet of Things/Shit device broadcasting your location through who knows what servers or using a commercial webservice to do geofencing seems like a bad idea.

You would want it to be a panic button, like a private EPIRB.

Most of the standalone devices I found googling around seem like junk, but there are bluetooth panic buttons that pair with a smartphone. Although relying on BT to protect one's freedom seems like a poor idea too.

This might be a good hacktivist project?
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:36 PM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


Oh God, I feel sick, just literally sick to my stomach. I will do whatever the fuck I can to stop this horror. But first, I think I'm gonna take up smoking again, I just can not deal with this shit...
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:41 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


I know everything is horrible right now, WalkerWestridge .. but please don't. For your own health. If not yours, for your loved ones and pets.
posted by INFJ at 12:43 PM on February 21, 2017 [13 favorites]


And if you can't help yourself, at least don't do it around the children and pets or let them see you doing it, because the kids will imitate what they see, regardless of what you might tell them.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:47 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


All right, I've spent the day in mourning/rage/helplessness, and now I'm ready to do something. Is there any wide-scale opposition to this, independent of the general anti-Trump organizations? Who do I talk to? I live in a sanctuary city whose mayor has told Trump to go fuck himself, in a state with two firebrand leftist senators. All my federal representation is in lockstep against this, and ICE will have an uphill battle deporting anyone around here. So how do I help extend that protection to more vulnerable populations? My go-to donation has been the ACLU, but it's not clear that they're the boots on the ground for this, beyond the 4th Amendment case I'm sure they're already drafting. I'm willing to hide people in my attic. I'll join a human blockade if it'll keep the feds out. I know what the history books are going to say about the next two years, and I will do anything in my power not to be a Good German. Can anyone point me in the direction of a group of like-minded folk?
posted by Mayor West at 12:49 PM on February 21, 2017 [13 favorites]


Oh God, I feel sick, just literally sick to my stomach. I will do whatever the fuck I can to stop this horror. But first, I think I'm gonna take up smoking again, I just can not deal with this shit...
posted by WalkerWestridge at 3:41 PM on February 21 [+] [!]


RESIST

We can do it. Honestly just live well out of spite.
posted by Tarumba at 12:52 PM on February 21, 2017 [10 favorites]


You would want it to be a panic button, like a private EPIRB.

There's also the issue that once the paramilitaries catch on they'll start removing and disabling any electronics they find. And if that doesn't work, then possibly even a tase-first, interrogate later protocol (let's face it, the militia types among them are going to jump at any pretext to escalate the use of force) .

Some sort of dead-man setup that triggers due to the absence of predefined check-in actions, may be a partial approach.
posted by Buntix at 12:52 PM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


Sigh, OK Im calm again. Not gonna smoke, but I am gonna go see what I can legally do to both protest this and help people caught up in this shit show.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:59 PM on February 21, 2017 [12 favorites]


I know what the history books are going to say about the next two years, and I will do anything in my power not to be a Good German. Can anyone point me in the direction of a group of like-minded folk?

What you're talking about is the kind of thing that is only and can only ever be organised off-line.

The tip of the spear right now seems to mostly be faith-based groups, because they have ownership of locations that they can use to grant physical sanctuary to vulnerable people. That strategy will be complicated by the loosening of restrictions around the enforcement of detainment orders near "sensitive locations", but those groups are probably still the best place to start if you want to get involved in-person.

Sanctuary Not Deportation has a map-based tool for finding local coalitions, so you can probably drill down from there.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:08 PM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


I'm going to worry about the fact I might be stuck here now if this comment is true:
"...just yesterday I think I read about a guy - a US citizen, the born-here kind - who sent his [passport] off for renewal but got a letter back saying he had to regularize his green card status and make an appointment at the nearest USCIS office."

My sister in Germany is about to have a baby, my passport is lapsed, and I may be considered a dual national. I can't seem to get out of prison anymore on any level in my life. It's a nightmare.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:09 PM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


this quote hit me:
“Demographics are not destiny,” Craig Varoga remarked to me at the end of a long conversation. “But demographics with hard work and smart decisions are destiny."
I'm a white male citizen. I, and most of the other white male citizens I've known in my life, try to avoid hard work and often make stupid decisions. The current President is the poster boy for laziness and bad judgment. But we all do okay; mostly better than people of other ethnicity who work harder and make better choices. I was in a chat community with several other people when I applied for Disability and I was accepted on the first try, no appeal needed, in less time than any of the rest... they asked how I did it, and I figured it out... I was the only white male. It's the American Way.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:55 PM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


I'm a white male citizen. I, and most of the other white male citizens I've known in my life, try to avoid hard work and often make stupid decisions.

A meme I saw today: "Some say black people are lazy. I don't know if that's true, but white people went all the way to Africa to avoid doing work."
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:01 PM on February 21, 2017 [54 favorites]


What you're talking about is the kind of thing that is only and can only ever be organised off-line.

Virtual Steganographic Laboratory for Digital Images (VSL) Free tool for steganography and steganalysis
posted by ridgerunner at 2:01 PM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


I'm thinking those "hide your passport under your clothes" strap-on things they sell in travel stores may become super popular now.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:13 PM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


If you want to help, SanctuaryNotDeportation offers MANY ways to get involved. There ARE things you can do to help.

Thanks for this. Are there any good legal defense funds or organizations to donate to, as well?
posted by Existential Dread at 2:24 PM on February 21, 2017


I don't know of any groups that directly and specifically do legal aid for immigration (even Sanctuary Not Deportation is something that I only recently ran across). However, I do know that SPLC defends immigration cases along with the other work that they do.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:30 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Checked SanctuaryNotDeportation for anything near me. The only Org in Missouri or Kansas has a website that hasn't been updated since 2014 and appears to focus heavily on "Praying for Immigrants". *sigh* Any other suggestions?
posted by jferg at 2:31 PM on February 21, 2017 [4 favorites]


On what basis can the US force Mexico to accept people who aren't Mexican citizens?

I don't know how the Mexican government feels about it but if the immigrant being deported was from El Salvador or Honduras or Nicaragua they might really prefer to be deported to a border town in Mexico. It would save them a lot of trouble and expense if they wanted to have another go. Plus Mexico is much safer than El Salvador. Same for anyone who came from farther away. People from China and Vietnam and west Africa go through Mexico on the way to the US.

My nephew worked as an inspector and supervisor for a big home building company in Texas for a few years. The skilled workman, electricians, plumbers etc. were sub-contractors who were certainly paying taxes. The laborers were sub-sub-sub contractors paid in cash and they often had to pay someone a big bribe to get the job. The less English you spoke the more likely you were off the books.
posted by Bee'sWing at 2:55 PM on February 21, 2017


Thanks for this. Are there any good legal defense funds or organizations to donate to, as well?

As a less-technical adjunct to the panic button thing. An approach that could be worth investigating, and allow people to help, would be some sort of buddy/watch system.

It wouldn't be easy as it would have to be fairly anonymised (which kinda rules out any great depth of interaction, humans have this weird imperative to get to know each other), and would have to have redundancy and leeway for natural variation.

It would have the advantage that the people doing the active monitoring would be those who are relatively safe (i.e. citizens).
posted by Buntix at 2:57 PM on February 21, 2017


Seconding the passport card for those of you who are citizens and worried about being mistakenly detained or deported. If you live in Washington, Minnesota, Vermont, New York, or Michigan, an enhanced driver's license, which is also supposed to establish U.S. nationality, might be an option. Check with your local DMV.
posted by Somnambulista at 3:00 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


On what basis can the US force Mexico to accept people who aren't Mexican citizens?

I don't know how the Mexican government feels about it but if the immigrant being deported was from El Salvador or Honduras or Nicaragua they might really prefer to be deported to a border town in Mexico.

Maybe, but that sort of misses the point. The point is that someone (an ICE officer?) will have to show up at the border with this non-Mexican citizen, at which point Mexican border guards are going to want to see that person's passport, ask if they have the appropriate visa to enter Mexico, determine their reason for entering Mexico and what they're likely to do there, and decide to grant or not grant that person entry. Mexico obviously has the right to deny entry to any non-citizen, just like any other country. People with no particular purpose or prospects for entering a country are often denied entry to that country. So unless the plan is to just catapult people over the Great Wall, this seems unlikely to work.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:10 PM on February 21, 2017 [14 favorites]


as a legal, documented, non-citizen person of color, my personal backup plan is to text my parents, my head of HR, and my local emergency contact whenever I'm arriving by air or crossing a land border, and then giving a rough estimate as to when I expect to clear customs (based on lines) and then loose instructions to wait a half hour past that estimate. They should expect an ALL CLEAR text from me after I clear the border and if they don't get that, they have permission to call me to confirm that I'm ok, then start calling my employer's immigration attorneys if I don't respond.

It's basically the same protocol that I have for when I go camping in the backcountry, but instead of defending against bears or wolves, it's about defending against people who are paid by my taxes.
posted by bl1nk at 3:17 PM on February 21, 2017 [52 favorites]


It looks like the United Church of Christ denomination might be active in this Sanctuary movement.

Maybe see if there's a UCC church in the area?

United Church of Christ.
posted by spinifex23 at 3:22 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


So unless the plan is to just catapult people over the Great Wall, this seems unlikely to work.

If that's what it takes, I would not be at all surprised.
posted by rodlymight at 3:24 PM on February 21, 2017


I refuse to apply for disability because it's a corrupt dehumanizing system in its current form. Wouldn't matter anyway. I wouldn't get it. Somebody blackballed me or something.
posted by saulgoodman at 3:25 PM on February 21, 2017


I am just blind with rage at this. This Vox article has a lot more details, but the part on children is especially barbaric:

In recent years, thousands of “unaccompanied alien children,” mostly from Central America, have come to the US, often fleeing persecution or seeking to reunite with relatives living in the country (or both). Because the processes for detaining and processing these children are so different, they’ve exacerbated the immigration court backlog and taken resources away from other immigration enforcement. And, to the consternation of many immigration hawks, most of them have been allowed to stay in the US in one form or another.

The executive order Trump signed last month tells DHS to make sure that unaccompanied children, “when appropriate, are safely repatriated” to their home countries. The DHS memo suggests two ways to do that: by changing the definition of who counts as an unaccompanied child; and by deporting the relatives of children who come to the US to join them.

Kelly’s memo cites a statistic that 60 percent of children who arrive in the US unaccompanied end up in the custody of a relative. (The Department of Health and Human Services, which is responsible for the care of unaccompanied immigrant children, usually tries to locate a relative to take care of the child because they have limited capacity.) It suggests that children who are reunited with their parents once in the US should no longer be considered “unaccompanied alien children” within the US immigration system — and should therefore be treated as regular unauthorized immigrants and placed in deportation proceedings.

Furthermore, it suggests that “parents and family members of these children” who are immigrants in the US, who often pay smugglers to ensure their children make it safely north, should be considered accomplices to human smuggling and trafficking. It recommends that legal immigrants who pay for their children to come to the US be referred for criminal prosecution — and that unauthorized immigrants who do the same be deported.


Blind. With. Rage. And I feel so fucking helpless.
posted by triggerfinger at 3:32 PM on February 21, 2017 [26 favorites]


So unless the plan is to just catapult people over the Great Wall, this seems unlikely to work.

It seems more likely they'll be added to the indefinitely detained prisoner/slave population, and meanwhile used as political leverage against Mexico to extract some sort of symbolic "payment for the wall" since the fact that they were in the country is evidence that Mexico allowed them through but now refuses to take them "back," forcing us to pay to keep them in these forced labor camps costly but entirely humane holding facilities.
posted by contraption at 3:32 PM on February 21, 2017


Mexico obviously has the right to deny entry to any non-citizen, just like any other country. People with no particular purpose or prospects for entering a country are often denied entry to that country. So unless the plan is to just catapult people over the Great Wall, this seems unlikely to work.

You're presuming that the people implementing this have some humanity. They don't. What happened historically was that people expelled from one country were denied entrance to their neighbour; they were trapped in a no-man's land between the two countries until they died or a third country stepped in to take them as a humanitarian gesture.

E.g., Scenes of Horror at Expulsion of Jewish Refugees from Poland [JTA, March 13, 1923]
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:58 PM on February 21, 2017 [19 favorites]


The DHS memo suggests two ways to do that: by changing the definition of who counts as an unaccompanied child....It suggests that children who are reunited with their parents once in the US should no longer be considered “unaccompanied alien children”

Here's 6 USC 279(g), defining "unaccompanied minor":

the term “unaccompanied alien child” means a child...with respect to whom there is no parent or legal guardian in the United States; or

I don't see how using the statutory definition is a "redefinition."
posted by jpe at 4:11 PM on February 21, 2017


Are there any guidelines somewhere about what I should be carrying with me as someone who could be profiled as a potentially illegal immigrant? Or how I should answer any questions about my immigration status?

For those who'd like to carry with them a federal ID that acts as both proof of identity and proof of U.S. citizenship, consider obtaining a U.S. Passport Card.

It's cheaper than a normal U.S. passport, will fit in a wallet, is evidence of U.S. citizenship, and is accepted as a passport for land or sea entry and exit to and from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Bermuda (it can't be used for international air travel). One downside is that it contains an embedded RFID chip, which may concern the privacy conscious (although it does come with a little EM shield sleeve that you can keep it in).

I originally obtained one back when Arizona adopted SB 1070 as under the law an Arizona drivers license was acceptable as proof of citizenship, but a California drivers license was not.
posted by RichardP at 4:12 PM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


When you start running your government like a gag from Johnny Dangerously, something is deeply wrong.
Fargin' ICEholes.
posted by MtDewd at 4:23 PM on February 21, 2017 [6 favorites]


As a resident alien of a foreign country (Japan) that's looking less and less xenophobic than America with each passing day (seriously, think about that for a moment), there are some things to watch out for when it comes to the statistics touted by the right when talking about how evil foreigners are. Visa-related crimes (overstaying, working, or doing work not authorized by your visa status) are crimes that citizens literally cannot commit, only resident aliens. This is ignored by the right in Japan which loudly points to the crime rate among foreigners being higher than that of Japanese citizens. When you subtract visa issues, which are the vast majority of crimes committed by resident aliens, the crime rate drops to nearly half that of Japanese citizens. When Trump or Bannon, or whoever starts talking about the crime rates, know that they are definitely including visa related infractions and treating them as equivalent to murder, rape, and arson.

One of those crimes here? Not carrying your residence permit with you at all times. In Japan, at least, the police can stop anyone foreign looking at any time and demand to see their residence permit. If you don't have it on you, you can be detained (for up to 23 days without a charge!) until someone brings your card to the police station. Of course, there is a fine to go with that, and that fine gets added to the tally of "crimes" committed by foreigners. The moral? I never, never go anywhere without my card, because I can be stopped at any time, for any reason, even just around the corner to the convenience store. I know people that are stopped regularly by the police here, for no other reason than a visa check. For the most part, Japanese police polite, and rarely, if ever, draw their guns. Now, replace that with screaming, trigger happy American police. And realize that is pretty much where the States are headed. "Random" stops where hostile, gun wielding federal agents grab someone and demand to see their proof of legal residence. I'm less and less excited about my trip home next fall.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:30 PM on February 21, 2017 [62 favorites]


Christ, this is chilling: "ICE agents should also arrest and initiate deportation proceedings against any other undocumented immigrant they encounter."

Gosh, and it wouldn't be like the media to exaggerate anything, right? We better just believe what they say with no skepticism.

Meanwhile, the Executive Order calls for enforcement to be prioritized against those that have commited serious crimes or pose security risks.
posted by jpe at 5:12 PM on February 21, 2017


Yeah, in the US you are also required to carry ID with you at all times if you are not a citizen - not doing so is a misdemeanor punishable by up to 30 days in jail. But even if I was a citizen of some random third country, I'd feel much safer being stopped in Japan (or most other first world countries) than in the US, whether or not I had the proper paperwork.

As an upper middle class, white US citizen male I don't actually find the police threatening, but I'm aware of how very rare that ability is.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:15 PM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


Oh, and the conflation of immigration-related "crimes" and other crimes is strong in the US, yeah. In general, immigrants commit fewer crimes, not more.
posted by thefoxgod at 5:19 PM on February 21, 2017 [7 favorites]


In response to the upthread comment citing Coulter about how immigrants tend to vote for the Democratic party, well, duh? Why would any immigrant who's about to live through this shitstorm, if they manage to obtain citizenship and the right to vote then turn around and vote for the party that's decided that doing its best to get rid of all foreigners and denying non-citizens access to social services is more important than just about anything else?

I mean, if, somehow, the right to vote was granted to permanent residents in Japan (not holding my breath), you can be damn sure I wouldn't be voting for the party whose members claim foreigners are dangerous, or whose members aid and abet the exploitation of foreign labor at below minimum wage. Strange how that happens.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:21 PM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


Meanwhile, the Executive Order calls for enforcement to be prioritized against those that have commited serious crimes or pose security risks.

SMILEY FACE WINK WINK.
posted by Artw at 5:26 PM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


In response to the upthread comment citing Coulter about how immigrants tend to vote for the Democratic party, well, duh? Why would any immigrant who's about to live through this shitstorm, if they manage to obtain citizenship and the right to vote then turn around and vote for the party that's decided that doing its best to get rid of all foreigners and denying non-citizens access to social services is more important than just about anything else?

And the stupid, stupid, stupid, unbelievably stupid thing is that if the GOP actually bothered to follow the "maybe be less racist?" advice of their own 2012 election postmortem they would have actually become competitive among immigrants and set themselves up for long term success. It's not like there aren't fiscally and socially conservative immigrants out there. They could achieve their electoral goals without this deplorable insanity we're in now. But no, it was just asking too much of them.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:35 PM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


And the stupid, stupid, stupid, unbelievably stupid thing is that if the GOP actually bothered to follow the "maybe be less racist?" advice of their own 2012 election postmortem they would have actually become competitive among immigrants and set themselves up for long term success.

The point of being horrible isn't to win elections; the point of winning elections is to be horrible. I'm not being facetious here. In my reading about antisemitism over the last century I've noticed over and over that people say "but don't they realise that they're hurting themselves". Yes, they do realise that, but they do it because it hurts their enemies more.

True story: Hungary conscripted everybody, Jews and non-Jews during WW2 (before the Nazi takeover in '44). Jews weren't put into the army, though, they were put into "labor battalions" which had a horrific rate of mortality. A man from my dad's village was part of a group clearing mines - by hand - and without tools. He asked if they could have a stick to dig with - it would be safer and more effective. "What," he was told, "You think we want you Jews to live?"

The GOP wants to remain in power, sure, but the energy that they have is coming from the racists and misogynists and Jew-haters. These people are not interested in the potential victory of a nicey-nicey Republican Party because it wouldn't reflect what they really want, which is fear and horror and punishment.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:56 PM on February 21, 2017 [41 favorites]


or get a wearable GPS tracker with SMS service and panic button. Something like that.

You could even have it trigger when it registered arriving at any sort of ICE processing facility.

On the other hand if you are looking to evade a hostile state apparatus it may not be good to voluntarily carry a tracking device. (Without some sort elaborate chaff setup, anyway).


I put a Tile bluetooth tracker token in my passport the other day as I'm super paranoid of losing it (and the Tile community has helped me recover my keys and other things before). Could be a good model (with some modifications). Think a small token that you can place inside your wallet or behind your phone cover etc. You activate it by pushing a small button once and it works until the battery dies. Very cheap and nondescript and runs for a year once activated (and you could only activate in emergency if paranoid about tracking). Doesn't need any external power or even be vey detectable by ICE. Have ACLU lawyers, immigration lawyers, and concerned citizens load the app on their phone and everytime they enter an ICE facility, or even walk past one or be next to an ICE van taking people away potentially, they will automagically be scanning for anyone in trouble. Has some flaws but those Tokens can be very small and it could be scaled up at a cost point that a lot of people could afford even on low income. App could be configured to only scan in certain geofences areas etc and not report who found the token etc (and other privacy controls to prevent the app been used against the community).

Christ, it's depressing that I'm back of the napkin trying to plan a tracking system to prevent the Govt sponsored disappearing of people....in the US
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:29 PM on February 21, 2017 [17 favorites]


Time to put my name on the waiting list at the library for Todd Miller's Border Patrol Nation: Dispatches From the Front Lines of Homeland Security.

I read it when it first came out, a couple of years ago, before the worst-case scenarios presented therein actually started playing out.
posted by virago at 6:31 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


When does it occur to Trump to start filling the boxcars? Will that be out of San Diego? Maybe down in Texas? Ten million people, that is a lot of people in detention. Is that wall just going to be the south side of a long prison type building? Then they will let people out south.
posted by Oyéah at 6:33 PM on February 21, 2017


PS Miller's a solid writer, reporter and researcher; the above link takes you to an excerpt.
posted by virago at 6:34 PM on February 21, 2017


I'm still struggling with how they keep getting away with this blatancy. They don't even care in the slightest about people catching on to what they're trying to do.
posted by flatluigi at 6:35 PM on February 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


They don't even care in the slightest about people catching on to what they're trying to do.

Why would they? Trump was very clear what he wanted and almost half of voters chose him. If there is any Trump policy that is clearly popular with his voters, its the anti-immigrant stuff, that was pretty much the central pillar of his campaign. Being blatant and over the top about this just makes him more popular with the same people who elected him.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:45 PM on February 21, 2017 [16 favorites]


WaPo: Trump administration issues new immigration enforcement policies, says goal is not ‘mass deportations’
In a conference call with reporters, a senior Department of Homeland Security official moved to avert what he called a “sense of panic” among immigrant communities.

“We do not have the personnel, time or resources to go into communities and round up people and do all kinds of mass throwing folks on buses. That’s entirely a figment of folks’ imagination,” said the official, who was joined on the call by two others, all of whom spoke on condition of anonymity to answer questions. “This is not intended to produce mass roundups, mass deportations.”
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:59 PM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


Perhaps they could avert a sense of panic more successfully, were that their actual goal, if they didn't keep doing things that spur panic.
posted by zachlipton at 7:01 PM on February 21, 2017 [30 favorites]


said the official, who was joined on the call by two others, all of whom spoke on condition of anonymity

Very reassuring, thank you
posted by theodolite at 7:48 PM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


"We're just tearing families apart like THIS, we're not tearing families apart like THAT."
posted by Artw at 7:51 PM on February 21, 2017 [5 favorites]


I don't know of any groups that directly and specifically do legal aid for immigration (even Sanctuary Not Deportation is something that I only recently ran across).

Here are a few I know of, by name (not through personal experience):

Immigration Defenders Law Center
Catholic Legal Immigration Network
American Immigration Council
ASISTA
Immigration Equality
Immigrant Legal Resource Center
NLG National Immigration Project
National Immigration Law Center

DOJ's Office of Legal Access Programs has a list of organizations who are accredited to do immigration representation here: Recognized Organizations and Accredited Representatives Roster
if you want to look for local orgs.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:10 PM on February 21, 2017 [13 favorites]


“This is not intended to produce mass roundups, mass deportations.”

How would these anonymous officials know? They concede that the new policies could be used as part of a mass deportation program; how do they know what their administration has planned? They don't, and I wish the paper had pointed that out.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:12 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Gosh, and it wouldn't be like the media to exaggerate anything, right? We better just believe what they say with no skepticism.

Meanwhile, the Executive Order calls for enforcement to be prioritized against those that have commited serious crimes or pose security risks.


Perhaps you missed the incident where ICE nabbed a DV victim based on a tip from her alleged abuser. That....doesn't exactly square with your credulous reading of an EO ostensibly from Donald "Mexicans...they're rapists" Trump.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:18 PM on February 21, 2017 [11 favorites]


Meanwhile, the Executive Order calls for enforcement to be prioritized against those that have commited serious crimes or pose security risks.

No, it doesn't. It calls for prioritization of aliens who ICE/DHS personnel or other "qualified" LEOs determine have "committed acts that constitute a chargeable offense" (without any actual charges filed or normal judicial process) as well as those who in their personal judgment, "otherwise pose a risk to public safety or national security."

In other words, anyone they feel like grabbing.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:23 PM on February 21, 2017 [21 favorites]


Detention Centers are already over capacity. We should suggest that any new prisons and detention centers will bear names like The Paul Ryan Auschwitz Prison Labor Camp or Trump-Bergen-Belson Detention Center for people without a destination country.

Pardon my pointedness...we cannot let this happen, not on our watch.
posted by childofTethys at 8:26 PM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


Being Hispanic will not stop ICE agents from carrying out trump's horrible agenda. Just look at Marco Rubio & Ted Cruz.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:30 PM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


Chicago Public Schools have instructed principals to not allow ICE in schools without a warrant.

CPS also instructed parents to update students' emergency contact info, w backup people to care for kids, in case ICE grabs a parent


People are terrified for a reason, anonymous official, and they are justified in their precautions. This is mass harassment of a community you are conducting, not a targeted law enforcement operation.
posted by Artw at 8:43 PM on February 21, 2017 [30 favorites]


To reply from waaaay upthread:


You just pay detainees a dollar a day and then it's not slavery.
posted by SyraCarol at 11:34 AM on February 21 [1 favorite +] [!]

That's about what some states pay prisoners for an 8 hour workday (0.14 cents per hour)


Other comments: DHS's unacommpanied minors program is interesting because essentially it's group home placement instead of deportation. It's an alternative to Foster care . Because we can't verify situations to send minors back to their home countries safely (and really bad PR when they die) and they are breaking every child welfare law by not having a guardian this program exists. So, yes I could see how a child being united with his parents would disqualify him from the program, but a child with a qualifying kinship placement would qualify for protection. *

*have previously worked with an agency involved in placements but not with that population.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:19 PM on February 21, 2017 [1 favorite]




And the stupid, stupid, stupid, unbelievably stupid thing is that if the GOP actually bothered to follow the "maybe be less racist?" advice of their own 2012 election postmortem they would have actually become competitive among immigrants and set themselves up for long term success.

Maybe in the long term but not in the short term, and Republcans don't think beyond the short term. They operate on a gradient descent algorithm with an overly greedy objective function and a consequential adversity to exploration. It's like dealing with ants. They aren't very strategic but damn if they won't overwhelm you with their numbers and their determination to find where your fruit bowl is hidden, even when the bowl is moved and when the outside contains a lot more fruit anyway.

Occasionally there are non-linear events like like the Civil Rights movement, the recognition of women as humans, and Christians finally butting out of marriage, which bust us out of stagnation and into new terrain. It feels like freedom to grow but the ants tirelessly start their march towards another mediocre and greedy local maximum, dragging us all with them.
posted by SakuraK at 11:05 PM on February 21, 2017 [8 favorites]


The Republican Party and most of its members, going back to my childhood when my mother was an official in a Los Angeles Republican Womens Group, don't mind being a "minority party" numberwise, as long as they are a majority, powerwise. In fact it makes it easier the less people whose opinions, feelings and lives you have to be responsive to. THAT has been the Republican Way for the last 50 years.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:52 PM on February 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


WalkerWestridge: "Oh God, I feel sick, just literally sick to my stomach. I will do whatever the fuck I can to stop this horror. But first, I think I'm gonna take up smoking again, I just can not deal with this shit..."

I know it's hard to believe, but I can tell you from experience that, after a while of being nicotine-free, you will face some very stressful situation without the thought of smoking a cigarette crossing your mind. When you think about it later, about how you got through it without even thinking about smoking, you will be very happy with yourself. You will know that, contrary to how you feel now, cigarettes never really helped you get through any situation. You will be free.
posted by double block and bleed at 4:14 AM on February 22, 2017 [7 favorites]


This quote, from a lawyer representing immigrant children, stuck out in the Politico piece Laurence Tribe linked on Twitter about Trump lawyers petitioning the court to deny unaccompanied minors a bond hearing:

Cooper said she's detected no clear policy shift between the Trump and Obama administrations in the litigation, which actually dates back to the Reagan administration. "In terms of change in policy, it's hard to tell," she said.
posted by mediareport at 4:40 AM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


To be clear, the ramping up and widening out of the attacks on families under Trump is blatant and despicable.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 AM on February 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


i'm so confused by the Politico article.
Obama's administration also denied unaccompanied minors a bond hearing?
posted by sio42 at 4:49 AM on February 22, 2017


I'm sure it's been posted somewhere here before, but 5 calls now has an app which will just dial your reps for you. You don't even need to make a long speech when you call, you can just say "tell Senator so-and-so that I am strongly against [subject]. I am a constituent from [zip code]. Thank you." Don't let up on them.
posted by triggerfinger at 4:58 AM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


i'm so confused by the Politico article. Obama's administration also denied unaccompanied minors a bond hearing?

What I recall is fury at the extended detention of children, both accompanied and not, and the lack of legal counsel for them during their hearings. Heres an article rom the NYT Magazine in 2015:

The Shame of America’s Family Detention Camps

The quoted lawyer in the Politico piece might be conflating the fierce legal resistance of the Obama administration to fixing the atrocious conditions in its privately run detention centers with the current situation, but is denying legal counsel to folks in a deportation hearing a large improvement over not giving them a hearing at all?
posted by mediareport at 5:29 AM on February 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


[One deleted. We've mentioned this quite a lot, but once again folks, really: no comments about self harm, etc. We aren't here to hurt each other, trigger each other, or encourage violent, harmful, or suicidal behavior. The EXACT OPPOSITE is what we want to share here. Let's get through this safely together. Thanks.]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:42 AM on February 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


I need to reread The Diary of Anne Frank and take notes this time. Just in case.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:57 AM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Rainbo Vagrant mentioned this above but trans (and other LGB*Q) undocumented immigrants are a huge problem because of how they are treated in detention and because their deportation is likely to lead to death. Many are fleeing their home country specifically because they are LGBTQ. Once they get here they face more discrimination and are often unable to report it.

Recently a woman was detained while trying to file a restraining order against her abuser. Someone, suspected to be her abuser, called in a tip to ICE and she was arrested at the courthouse. She was trans. I don't know whether they'll keep her in women's or men's detention, but it's common to sort trans people based on genitalia, not gender, and thus trans women experience high rates of sexual assault. In 2015, Jennicet Gutiérrez interrupted a speech by Obama to a LGBT group in order to draw attention to the issue. (probably don't read the comments on either link)
posted by AFABulous at 7:02 AM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


From an anonymous commenter:
I've seen a lot of comments here question how good and decent people could possibly work for ICE, and I want to add a small point to the discussion. (Disclaimer: I don't work for ICE, but I do work in another part of DHS.)

ICE is actually a bit of a Frankenstein's monster, cobbled together from parts of the immigration and customs agencies that preceded it, and it has two sub-agencies with completely different structures and chains of command that don't always play nicely together.

One is Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO) - it does what you think it does, and it's what everyone thinks of when they think of ICE.

The other is Homeland Security Investigations (HSI), and their mandate covers investigating everything from human trafficking to drug smuggling to money laundering to cyber crime. They gather evidence and present cases to a U.S. Attorney for prosecution. (Some of them focus on pursuing Americans who criminally exploit immigrants.) A big chunk of their work is in service of ideals that most of us would share.

On the whole: Do I think it's likely that the bulk of the new positions advocated under the executive orders will go to ERO? Unfortunately yes. Is ICE entirely a job-creation program for xenophobic thugs? No.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:35 AM on February 22, 2017 [25 favorites]


NPR talked this morning to James Tomsheck, former head of CBP internal affairs. He had grave concerns about rapidly ramping up the size of any border control organizations due in part to the inevitable quality control issues. In the past the CBP did a "doubling our size" effort where they skimped on some of the safeguards such as polygraphs and when they later caught up he was appalled at the number of people with serious criminal backgrounds, narco ties, outright drug gang sleeper agents, and so on. Even the people who are on board with the general strategy of enforced borders are like, yeah, this is gonna be bad.
posted by freecellwizard at 8:01 AM on February 22, 2017 [14 favorites]


Pogo_Fuzzybutt: Look in your wallet and purse. How much do you have that proves you are a citizen ?

Badgermann: Depending on the state, they may have already verified your legal residency status.

The REAL ID act is in place, or being put in place in most states.


More on this: in order to get a REAL ID-compliant identification card, the applicant must provide the following documentation:

* A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate
* Documentation of birth date
* Documentation of legal status and Social Security number
* Documentation showing name and principal residence address

With this, you get a Gold Star (literally), so your Drivers License or voluntary personal identification card (for non-drivers) serves as your Official Documentation.

As I understand it, you can't just provide some random SSN, as this information is confirmed with the Social Security Department. But what if you have changed your name, so your current name doesn't match your SS card? Get your name changed on your SSN card ASAP, because that's a major hold-up in getting your Real ID.

Also, once you get a Real ID, you won't get fingerprinted (unless your license lapses, which may happen if you don't have all your paperwork when you come in to renew your license), but your photo is used to lock your face to your ID with facial recognition, which is apparently easier to include in a database than fingerprints.

If this all freaks you out, you're decades too late, according to a casual comment by a Motor Vehicle Division representative, which is where I first learned much of the above information. Apparently driver's licenses have been included in databases since the 1960s, but I can't find any sources to verify that I heard him right.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:59 AM on February 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


My state is one of five not in compliance with Real ID. I ... I honestly don't know how I feel about it. Not being able to fly will be an issue. On the other hand....
posted by anastasiav at 9:08 AM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


More on this: in order to get a REAL ID-compliant identification card, the applicant must provide the following documentation:

* A photo ID, or a non-photo ID that includes full legal name and birthdate
* Documentation of birth date
* Documentation of legal status and Social Security number
* Documentation showing name and principal residence address


All of these are problems for trans people. TSA/ICE glances at you, then squints at your ID. "Hm, you don't LOOK like a [Jessica/James], I'm detaining you for suspected fraud." It took me $300 and two months to get #1 on the list. I don't have my correct gender on my birth certificate* because I'm waiting for a doctor's letter certifying that I've had gender-related surgery (which cost $5000 with insurance and took over a year to get). #4 is covered by #1 for me but I can think of scenarios where it's not. I'm a white person with a Scandinavian surname who was born in the US and I'm still scared to go through airport security because I'm worried someone will think I don't look enough like a Kevin.

*Some states, like Kansas, do not let you change your gender on birth certificates at all, so your documentation will always conflict.
posted by AFABulous at 9:22 AM on February 22, 2017 [17 favorites]


your photo is used to lock your face to your ID with facial recognition

welp (not me)
posted by AFABulous at 9:28 AM on February 22, 2017 [6 favorites]




Being Hispanic will not stop ICE agents from carrying out trump's horrible agenda. Just look at Marco Rubio & Ted Cruz.

Rubio and Cruz are Cuban. Believing they have any common cause (besides language and being formerly part of Spain, of course) to poor people in Mexico is right up there with "All black people know each other", seriously.

My ex-MIL is from Nayarit, Mexico and she would see herself having more in common with a white person born in Los Angeles than anyone born in Cuba. Especially since, until 2017, Cubans just had to show up on the beach in Miami to enter the country legally.

"One Hispanic is good as another" is one of the reason the GOP does so terrible with Latinos. They think getting the Cubans on board is as good as getting every brown person that speaks Spanish to agree with them.
posted by sideshow at 9:41 AM on February 22, 2017 [12 favorites]


"The memos seek to end that practice, known as “catch and release,” by ordering the construction of more jails along the southwest border to house detained immigrants until their cases are resolved."

On this - unless the Federal government has a bunch of plans to construct such jails already reviewed and fully cleared, commonly called "shovel-ready," they're looking to a few years until any of these facilities are opened. For example: a plan to build new jail complex for Wayne County, Michigan has already taken about a decade and cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but you can cut that timeline and budget back a bit when you're talking about a new development in undeveloped lands.

First, you need land, and lots of it. You could claim eminent domain and try to pay people for their land, or find government-owned land that was set aside for something else large, like schools, hospitals, water treatment plants, or a trash dump, but you still need to go through the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process. The project will likely include the access to the site, which also needs to be secured, because what good is jail without a road on which to access it? You'll have to get it powered, and get sufficient water and wastewater, the former being an issue in the Southwest. OK, that's a year, if not two to three - and this is also the prime opportunity for opponents to try and kill the project, or at least stall it past the end of Trump's administration, when the whole thing could be scrapped.

Still, let's pretend the project design and environmental clearance are magically completed in a year and a half. Construction will take another two years, and there you're hitting the end of this four year (dark) magic window of opportunity.

But how does one fund such a project? Congress! Yes, you need a budget with money to build such a thing (or a series of things, in this case). Let's say Congress passes a budget to fund the development of these plans and get land purchased - they have to do it this year, when everyone is still all ruddy in the glow of Unchecked Racism and Xenophobia, before congressional folks start looking at campaigning on more moderate grounds to get re-elected in 2018. At least, that "single year of opportunity" idea put forth by Mark Shields on a recent PBS News Hour, and it sounds pretty logical.

So far, Trump has squandered a month of 12 in which to push forward more lasting legislation. Instead, he's made a big impact with snap decisions, which have had sudden effects but could (and have) just as easily be overturned by courts, or completely erased by the nest president.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:44 AM on February 22, 2017 [11 favorites]


Aside: AFABulous, thanks for those examples. My employer is working on some facial recognition tech, and I'm going to raise this as an issue.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:45 AM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


AFABulous: I mean, would you think these are the same person or not?

"Despite extensive progress in traditional face recognition domain, it is very challenging to recognize faces under transgender setting." (Robust transgender face recognition: Approach based on appearance and therapy factors, Vijay Kumar, R. Raghavendra, Anoop Namboodiri; presented at an/the IEEE conference 29 Feb.-2 March 2016)

From a cold, theoretical review, I find this fascinating. Looking at this as in issue of recognizing the person in front of you, this is even more frightening. AFABulous, thanks for sharing your experiences.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:49 AM on February 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


Just because it is important to keep in mind, and one highly favorited commented references "unlimited immigration:" The number of undocumented immigrants in the country has been steady for years (since 2007). It is not out of control. It is not increasing. People have been leaving as fast as they have been coming.
posted by Nothing at 10:17 AM on February 22, 2017 [6 favorites]


but you still need to go through the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) process.

There's an easy way around the NEPA process (which incorporates into its analysis the compliance with a whole host of federal environmental laws: Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, Endangered Species Act, National Historic Preservation Act, Migratory Bird Treaty Act, etc etc etc), and it's what Congress did during the Bush years to expedite construction of the last border fence: Congress merely exempts the project from environmental review. It's not commonly done, but I'm absolutely sure they'll try to do it for this thing, if it ever gets off the ground. They don't care about the enormous environmental damage, that's for sure.

The other, stickier, issue is getting the land. A lot of that property may be federal land, but a lot of it is private land, or state land, or tribal land. None of those parties are going to be happy about getting a big-ass wall built through their property, especially for groups like the Tohono O'odham, who have reservation land on both sides of the border. So that means condemnation proceedings, which could drag out for-freaking-ever in court, and could well go all the way to the Supreme Court, because some of that litigation is definitely going to be underwritten by people like the ACLU and the Sierra Club or Defenders of Wildlife.

Condemning private land for a government fence is also going to make the administration look bad to their base. Or it should, anyway, although at the moment it appears that nothing they do can make 45 look bad to his fans.
posted by suelac at 10:19 AM on February 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


The other, stickier, issue is getting the land. A lot of that property may be federal land, but a lot of it is private land, or state land, or tribal land. None of those parties are going to be happy about getting a big-ass wall built through their property

Given that the administration is already at odds with itself over whether it's going to be a wall or a fence, and, beyond that, whether it's even going to be a wholly physical structure or partly 'sensors and other technology,' I think it's wholly possible that all the troublesome-to-build-in areas simply get assigned constant drone overflights and then Trump declares 'MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.'

It's the question of whether they actually attempt to built a wall, or whether they build something and call it a success. Actually building a wall will, for the reasons you outline, be hard, and will require a lot of work, a lot of money, and a lot of legislative and judicial wrangling. Saying that they built a wall, on the other hand, requires only bullshit.
posted by cjelli at 10:43 AM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


Again I'm not particularly worried about myself but what happens when a trans Muslim goes through a checkpoint and their ID doesn't match their appearance? Especially if they were assigned male at birth and are now wearing hijab. Forget bathrooms, now they'll be suspected of "disguising themselves as women" to commit terrorist acts. Cis hijabis will be caught in that dragnet too as they now have to "prove" they're women.
posted by AFABulous at 10:57 AM on February 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


My church has been hosting and organizing sanctuary trainings for local congregations. Nearly 100 congregations attended the last one, representing Muslims, Jews, Christians, humanists, and so on. There are people out there currently working to shelter others, and concrete steps you can take to support them. This is a PR battle that compassionate people of faith can play a major part in. See if your local congregation is getting involved.
posted by Emily's Fist at 11:00 AM on February 22, 2017 [11 favorites]


why Americans have such a hardon for prisons?

I thought I would chime in and say it's because your country is founded on slavery and opposition to miscegenation.
posted by My Dad at 11:22 AM on February 22, 2017 [7 favorites]


Yes, as Emily's Fist says, get yourself to a congregation that is talking about sanctuary and sign up. Regardless of your faith.

In Canada the Mennonites are the go-to group on refugees, so I googled them in the US, and found their "no deportations" action team here.

The more people involved the better, big crowds at the start makes it harder to proceed.
posted by chapps at 11:25 AM on February 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


And here's the Quakers's Sanctuary Everywhere campaign.
posted by chapps at 11:26 AM on February 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


I thought I would chime in and say it's because your country is founded on slavery and opposition to miscegenation.

Again, the documentary 13th is well worth checking out on this.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


Good lord, it's almost comforting to watch Pence give a public speech after seeing trump earlier in the day. It's amazing what using complete sentences can do.
posted by Burhanistan at 11:55 AM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Remember he's only pretend.
posted by Artw at 11:57 AM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]




notsnot: The crops are all in and the peaches are rotting
The oranges are filed in their creosote dumps...


(Previously)

I wonder if we'll come full-circle and get a bracero program to pick fruit and vegetables in the US after the harvests rot in the fields this Spring, just like the fields in Georgia in 2011, if these orders aren't turned around as quickly as they were in Alabama, also in 2011.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:49 PM on February 22, 2017


I wonder if we'll come full-circle and get a bracero program to pick fruit and vegetables in the US after the harvests rot in the fields this Spring, just like the fields in Georgia in 2011, if these orders aren't turned around as quickly as they were in Alabama, also in 2011.

I would never ever ask an undocumented worker to put this on themselves, but I bet you anything ICE will suddenly be encouraged to use their discretion against farm workers and those workers could go on the damn news and say "I'm undocumented, come get me if you don't want to eat tomorrow" and ICE agents would burn at being seen as impotent.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:56 PM on February 22, 2017


No, they won't revive the bracero program, they'll just use the prisoners in the concentration camps to do all the agricultural labour.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:58 PM on February 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


The interesting thing about the Trump White House is that they do seem to back down for political (as opposed to strictly legal) reasons.

While they are all boors (who the fuck gets into an argument with an organization named after Anne Frank) there must be a good reason why Trump visited the National Museum of African American History. Or shut down Kellyanne Conway. Or even fired Flynn. Or has promised to retain DACA.

Small things. But they indicate that politics can work with the Trump White House.
posted by My Dad at 1:32 PM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


My libertarian family member said to me today, "Well, I'm keeping my eyes on the comics. When they get rounded up, then I'll be worried."

I went off on his fucking ass. I had been skirting around his well I'm a LIBERTARIAN but I hate Trump and well I'm not A LIBRUL but I hate Trump because he's a family member and also I've been depending on him for transport since I broke my leg a couple of weeks ago.

The parenthetical statements were only conveyed via a certain tone. I pointed out that of course (you fucking idiot) they are not going to start with rounding up Stephen Colbert. They'll start with (you fucking idiot) people who are within their grasp who will have less protections from the judiciary.

And then he was all *well that gerrymandering is terrible somebody should bring a case up to SCOTUS* and I was like They. Already. Have. (You fucking child).
posted by angrycat at 1:41 PM on February 22, 2017 [4 favorites]


Trump...has promised to retain DACA.

Trump has not promised to retain DACA. He made some vague comments about it last week ("We're gonna show great heart...DACA is a very, very difficult subject for me, I will tell you.") that contained no promises and, indeed, no actual policy positions.

Sean Spicer was explicitly asked about this yesterday and clarified that the administration has made no promises to anyone covered by DACA that it won't repeal the policy.
posted by cjelli at 1:48 PM on February 22, 2017 [9 favorites]


LOL. Arguing with a Libertarian who has just noticed the real world is like kicking a baby, if the baby really deserved it.
posted by Artw at 1:49 PM on February 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


Trump has not promised to retain DACA. He made some vague comments about it last week ("We're gonna show great heart...DACA is a very, very difficult subject for me, I will tell you.") that contained no promises and, indeed, no actual policy positions.

As a coda to that, in case it's unclear: there were a lot of expectations that Trump was going to reverse DACA and DAPA as soon as he got into office, and when they were both specifically excepted from the latest round of executive orders there was a lot of reporting about whether this meant that there was a plan to keep them in place; that's why Trump was asked about it, and that's why Spicer was being asked to clarify the administration's position. That position appears to be, formally, that they're leaving them in place for now, but making no promises either that they will or won't repeal them in the future.

Whether that's because there's an internal discussion in the White House about whether or not to repeal them, or whether they're putting the repeal off to a more opportune time, PR-wise, we don't know. But DACA is by no means safe, even if it remains in place for now.
posted by cjelli at 2:03 PM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Trump has not promised to retain DACA. He made some vague comments about it last week

It's really confusing, probably by design, but also because of the actual capacity of DHS and other organizations to actually interpret and enforce the policies. The immediate outcomes of course are serving red meat to Trump's base, and terrorizing anyone without US citizenship.
posted by My Dad at 2:04 PM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


I bet you anything ICE will suddenly be encouraged to use their discretion against farm workers

They're gonna be in for a surprise if they think they can get that racist power-excited tiger by the tail and then just ask it to be nice in certain circumstances.

I'm somewhat concerned we're going to see something worse (though perhaps marginally less awful than prison labor) and see an uptick in large farms putting housing on their grounds.
Come work under the table and you can stay in this lodging. So long as you don't leave the property ICE can't come on without a warrant so we'll protect you.

Oh, you need food and clothing and other supplies? Check out the company store. If you want to send money home we'll handle the western union for you too for just a few extra percent.

No, you don't have to use it. You can go into town and take your chances.

Yeah, we thought you'd see the appeal. Now back to work.
posted by phearlez at 2:24 PM on February 22, 2017 [14 favorites]




> Man claiming to be police officer grabs young Chicano kid violently and eventually pulls gun out & shoots at kids

That video. WHAT. THE. FUCK.
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:40 PM on February 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


How do we know he isn't actually a police officer? Serious question. I suspect that the answer is "there's no way to tell, not without endangering your own life and the lives of those around you". What a horrible way to live.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:42 PM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


That video - here's an article. Those little kids! They could be kids around here!

Here's what I suggest: Let's call the LAPD tonight or tomorrow, whatever their main numbers are. Let's put this on Facebook (I'm sure it's going on Facebook but let's all work hard to share it). Let's see if for once we can't get a piece of shit like this walking garbage sack fired from the police.

Anyone in? I'm in.
posted by Frowner at 3:46 PM on February 22, 2017 [8 favorites]


From the subsequent comments it seems we can tell he was a police officer because the kids got arrested and he didn't. Though i guess he could be a Zimmerman style police friendly.
posted by Artw at 3:52 PM on February 22, 2017 [2 favorites]


Per the article, this person is an LAPD officer.
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on February 22, 2017


LAPD Inspector General: 213-482-6833
LAPD Office of Internal Affairs: 213-485-1486
LAPD Complaint Hotline: 1-800-339-6868
posted by contraption at 4:13 PM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]




> Man claiming to be police officer grabs young Chicano kid violently and eventually pulls gun out & shoots at kids
Well, he just passed the recruitment test for ICE.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:31 PM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Man, this country sucks.
posted by porn in the woods at 5:40 PM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


Well, he just passed the recruitment test for ICE.

Or, he's the bar that you have to be under to get recruited for ICE. "Failed the Police Academy screening process? Boy, howdy do we got good news for you!"
posted by Buntix at 5:48 PM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Is anyone else seeing something in their feeds about an NYC ICE checkpoint at 149th and 3rd on the 6 train?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:11 PM on February 22, 2017 [3 favorites]


Is anyone else seeing something in their feeds about an NYC ICE checkpoint at 149th and 3rd on the 6 train?

Apparently (hopefully?) some/most of those reports are not true.
posted by dhens at 7:54 PM on February 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Likewise, I hope this photo of CBP checking IDs of passengers as they disembark from a SFO-JFK flight is overblown, or there is a very fucking good and detailed reason.
posted by holgate at 10:39 PM on February 22, 2017 [5 favorites]


Harassment of people moving between sanctuary cities.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:01 AM on February 23, 2017 [3 favorites]




" we're getting gang members out, we're getting drug lords out"

Are they fuck.
posted by Artw at 9:13 AM on February 23, 2017


Trump Says His Admin's Deportation Enforcement Is A 'Military Operation'

Let's everybody think long and hard about this.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:16 AM on February 23, 2017 [11 favorites]


Trump Says His Admin's Deportation Enforcement Is A 'Military Operation'

Let's everybody think long and hard about this.


Well, someone probably should...
posted by Etrigan at 9:32 AM on February 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


Likewise, I hope this photo of CBP checking IDs of passengers as they disembark from a SFO-JFK flight is overblown, or there is a very fucking good and detailed reason.

If that's what's actually going on, that seems like a really great way to make people more sympathetic to the plight of undocumented immigrants without actually snaring any in the dragnet. I mean, if I lacked full and proper documentation, I sure as fuck wouldn't be flying anywhere.

I can totally believe this is just a way to punish people from sanctuary cities, though, given that the executive doesn't actually have any power to punish them financially as Trump had threatened to do.
posted by tobascodagama at 9:56 AM on February 23, 2017 [2 favorites]


Monica Davey: He’s a Local Pillar in a Trump Town. Now He Could Be Deported.
“I think people need to do things the right way, follow the rules and obey the laws, and I firmly believe in that,” said Lori Barron, the owner of Lori’s Hair A’Fairs, a beauty salon. “But in the case of Carlos, I think he may have done more for the people here than this place has ever given him. I think it’s absolutely terrible that he could be taken away.”
@timothypmurphy: If only literally everybody had warned them.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:46 AM on February 27, 2017 [4 favorites]


DREAMer speaks out on immigration, gets arrested by ICE
Daniela Vargas, 22, was arrested Wednesday after sharing her family's story -- including her father and brother's arrest last month by ICE officers -- during a news conference in Jackson, Mississippi.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 8:34 AM on March 2, 2017 [3 favorites]


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