Trigger Warning
March 20, 2017 7:54 AM Subscribe
Theresa May to trigger Article 50 on 29th March: “Theresa May will trigger article 50...the prime minister’s spokesman has confirmed.”
Meanwhile: the first action of the UK government on Brexit will be to enact the “Great Repeal Bill”, whose paradoxical purpose is to copy almost all extant EU laws into United Kingdom legislation; One or two former prime ministers are on manoeuvres; Nicola Sturgeon has called for a second referendum on Scottish independence and invited all those UK residents appalled at the actions of the UK government to move to Scotland; Things are also getting complicated in Northern Ireland. Oh, and a former chancellor has just become editor of the London Evening Standard.
Just to wrap things up, here’s a neo-colonialist read of the situation as things currently stand.
Meanwhile: the first action of the UK government on Brexit will be to enact the “Great Repeal Bill”, whose paradoxical purpose is to copy almost all extant EU laws into United Kingdom legislation; One or two former prime ministers are on manoeuvres; Nicola Sturgeon has called for a second referendum on Scottish independence and invited all those UK residents appalled at the actions of the UK government to move to Scotland; Things are also getting complicated in Northern Ireland. Oh, and a former chancellor has just become editor of the London Evening Standard.
Just to wrap things up, here’s a neo-colonialist read of the situation as things currently stand.
What a nightmare.
posted by Optamystic at 8:07 AM on March 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Optamystic at 8:07 AM on March 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
To give you an insight into the level of negotiating prowess on display by our ruling party, I pluck an exchange from today's European Scrutiny Committee hearing (courtesy of the Guardian):
Sir Bill Cash: Has someone told our EU partners who are demanding €60bn for withdrawal that we have been net contributors. And in 1953 we remitted half of all German debt. It might be worth tactfully reminding people of this. We don’t owe anything to the EU, whether that is legal or political.
David Jones [Brexit Minister] says he does not know how tactful you can be when mentioning the London debt agreement.
posted by mushhushshu at 8:09 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
Sir Bill Cash: Has someone told our EU partners who are demanding €60bn for withdrawal that we have been net contributors. And in 1953 we remitted half of all German debt. It might be worth tactfully reminding people of this. We don’t owe anything to the EU, whether that is legal or political.
David Jones [Brexit Minister] says he does not know how tactful you can be when mentioning the London debt agreement.
posted by mushhushshu at 8:09 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
Trigger Warning indeed... [claps, mournfully]
posted by protorp at 8:12 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by protorp at 8:12 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Stupid, stupid, dumb, insane, moronic, ridiculous, and much more.
The *only* way this makes any sense whatsoever is if you think that the EU and the Euro will collapse in the next five-ten years, in which case the UK will be a safe haven from god-awful chaos in Europe. It's not impossible given Grexit, allegedly ropey Deutsche Bank, Le Pen, and not least the fact that Putin and Trump want Merkel gone and exactly that scenario.
If this doesn't happen, then it's destination TrumpPutin Tax Haven of WEngland, a small bigoted poor narrow minded inward looking shitty little country - with London an opulent city of dirty, tax-free dodgy money - and the rest of the country fucked.
posted by rolandroland at 8:12 AM on March 20, 2017 [31 favorites]
The *only* way this makes any sense whatsoever is if you think that the EU and the Euro will collapse in the next five-ten years, in which case the UK will be a safe haven from god-awful chaos in Europe. It's not impossible given Grexit, allegedly ropey Deutsche Bank, Le Pen, and not least the fact that Putin and Trump want Merkel gone and exactly that scenario.
If this doesn't happen, then it's destination TrumpPutin Tax Haven of WEngland, a small bigoted poor narrow minded inward looking shitty little country - with London an opulent city of dirty, tax-free dodgy money - and the rest of the country fucked.
posted by rolandroland at 8:12 AM on March 20, 2017 [31 favorites]
"...We are going to be out there, negotiating hard, delivering on what the British people voted for."
If only anyone knew what that was...
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:16 AM on March 20, 2017 [10 favorites]
If only anyone knew what that was...
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:16 AM on March 20, 2017 [10 favorites]
Optamystic: "What a nightmare."
There's today's eponysterical, right there.
posted by chavenet at 8:17 AM on March 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
There's today's eponysterical, right there.
posted by chavenet at 8:17 AM on March 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
National identity is a sickness.
With the greatest of respect, would you say that about any other form of identity?
Would you agree with me that employing leverage on any division between two groups of people, whether that be national, linguistic, ethnic, religious or racial, might be the fault of those demagogues who do so, rather than the fact we all have differences and see ourselves as falling into particular groups?
posted by mushhushshu at 8:18 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
With the greatest of respect, would you say that about any other form of identity?
Would you agree with me that employing leverage on any division between two groups of people, whether that be national, linguistic, ethnic, religious or racial, might be the fault of those demagogues who do so, rather than the fact we all have differences and see ourselves as falling into particular groups?
posted by mushhushshu at 8:18 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
"The first attempt at Article 50 notification has not been successful." (source)
posted by effbot at 8:20 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by effbot at 8:20 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
.
posted by lalochezia at 8:26 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 8:26 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Of course the poor suffered horribly."
Abehammerb Lincoln, I had the misfortune of taking AP European History back in high school and came away with little respect for historians or the ruling class. This is an apt summary of all of it.
posted by Leelas at 8:27 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Abehammerb Lincoln, I had the misfortune of taking AP European History back in high school and came away with little respect for historians or the ruling class. This is an apt summary of all of it.
posted by Leelas at 8:27 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
effbot Is there context to that? I assume it's a joke but the Twitter account you linked to is protected so you can't read the tweet.
posted by diziet at 8:27 AM on March 20, 2017
posted by diziet at 8:27 AM on March 20, 2017
Goodbye, United Kingdom.
effbot Is there context to that? I assume it's a joke but the Twitter account you linked to is protected so you can't read the tweet.
Even the cows are trying to get the fuck away from the UK before Brexit.
posted by Talez at 8:29 AM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
effbot Is there context to that? I assume it's a joke but the Twitter account you linked to is protected so you can't read the tweet.
Even the cows are trying to get the fuck away from the UK before Brexit.
posted by Talez at 8:29 AM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
NHS facing 'mission impossible next year'
Good thing the UK is brexiting and bringing back 350 million pounds a week, right? Right?
posted by Talez at 8:31 AM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
Good thing the UK is brexiting and bringing back 350 million pounds a week, right? Right?
posted by Talez at 8:31 AM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
and invited all those UK residents appalled at the actions of the UK government to move to Scotland
How about US residents appalled at the actions of the US government? Asking for a friend.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:31 AM on March 20, 2017 [19 favorites]
How about US residents appalled at the actions of the US government? Asking for a friend.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:31 AM on March 20, 2017 [19 favorites]
It's hard to see how May can ever hope to negotiate from a position of strength in regards to the EU. Any deal that grants access to the EU is almost certain to be less favorable than the status quo pre-Brexit and is almost certain to fail to "secure the borders" because free movement is pretty much an absolute condition of full access to the EU common market. Furthermore all of the big continental financial centers seem to be absolutely salivating at the thought that the London financial institutions will largely abandon London in order to maintain access to the EU.
There just seems to be absolutely no way to get anything close to a solution that will make most British happy not to mention all the challenges in the other parts of the UK. The UKIP assholes aren't going to get all the foreigners to leave and the economic chaos inherent in trying to go it alone in a world market where you are a bit player seems beyond stupid.
It seems like the best case scenario for May is that Sturgeon actually goes ahead with Scottish independence which makes Britain unassailably conservative enough that even when stuff goes to shit they can avoid being blamed and relegated to the opposition. That and the EU disintegrates fast enough that she can do a "We told you so" excuse. Seems incredibly tricky to navigate that sort of scenario and almost certain to result in your political career being destroyed within the next 12-18 months.
Is maintaining some semblance of national pride really so important to maintain that walking back from the abyss is impossible to entertain?
posted by vuron at 8:32 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
There just seems to be absolutely no way to get anything close to a solution that will make most British happy not to mention all the challenges in the other parts of the UK. The UKIP assholes aren't going to get all the foreigners to leave and the economic chaos inherent in trying to go it alone in a world market where you are a bit player seems beyond stupid.
It seems like the best case scenario for May is that Sturgeon actually goes ahead with Scottish independence which makes Britain unassailably conservative enough that even when stuff goes to shit they can avoid being blamed and relegated to the opposition. That and the EU disintegrates fast enough that she can do a "We told you so" excuse. Seems incredibly tricky to navigate that sort of scenario and almost certain to result in your political career being destroyed within the next 12-18 months.
Is maintaining some semblance of national pride really so important to maintain that walking back from the abyss is impossible to entertain?
posted by vuron at 8:32 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
The *only* way this makes any sense whatsoever is if you think that the EU and the Euro will collapse in the next five-ten years, in which case the UK will be a safe haven from god-awful chaos in Europe. It's not impossible given Grexit, allegedly ropey Deutsche Bank, Le Pen, and not least the fact that Putin and Trump want Merkel gone and exactly that scenario.
Oh, I didn't think about it that way, but that must be how the Tory Brexiteers were reasoning. Good point. And I can see how it looked that way last year. However it seems the EU leaders are circling the wagons now, and the Dutch election is an indication that at least some have their populations' backing. Anti-EU rhetoric is way down here in Denmark, and many politicians are beginning to say out loud what they should have said decades ago, that we are interdependent within the EU.
The French and German elections will be interesting, but my intuition is that many people have been scared by Brexit. And that at least Merkel is suddenly doing very well again, after a weak phase.
posted by mumimor at 8:36 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
Oh, I didn't think about it that way, but that must be how the Tory Brexiteers were reasoning. Good point. And I can see how it looked that way last year. However it seems the EU leaders are circling the wagons now, and the Dutch election is an indication that at least some have their populations' backing. Anti-EU rhetoric is way down here in Denmark, and many politicians are beginning to say out loud what they should have said decades ago, that we are interdependent within the EU.
The French and German elections will be interesting, but my intuition is that many people have been scared by Brexit. And that at least Merkel is suddenly doing very well again, after a weak phase.
posted by mumimor at 8:36 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
Is there context to that?
Context here: Could the Article 50 notification be written on the side of a cow catapulted over the English Channel? (Answer: yes.) He's referring to the case of Board of Inland Revenue v Haddock, a.k.a. the Negotiable Cow.
posted by verstegan at 8:36 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
Context here: Could the Article 50 notification be written on the side of a cow catapulted over the English Channel? (Answer: yes.) He's referring to the case of Board of Inland Revenue v Haddock, a.k.a. the Negotiable Cow.
posted by verstegan at 8:36 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
With the greatest of respect, would you say that about any other form of identity?
National identity has more blood on its hands than any other concept of the past century-plus, at least. Given its access to modern tools, it's got to be on the all-time leader board.
posted by praemunire at 8:38 AM on March 20, 2017 [22 favorites]
National identity has more blood on its hands than any other concept of the past century-plus, at least. Given its access to modern tools, it's got to be on the all-time leader board.
posted by praemunire at 8:38 AM on March 20, 2017 [22 favorites]
I assume it's a joke but the Twitter account you linked to is protected so you can't read the tweet.
Oh, missed that. The joke was just that the first attempt to deliver the notification seems to have failed.
(The choice of messenger might have been a bit unexpected, but is in line with that little detail that apparently nobody in the UK government knows if UK has any trade negotiators, or where they are.)
Talez' interpretation also works, of course.
posted by effbot at 8:41 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh, missed that. The joke was just that the first attempt to deliver the notification seems to have failed.
(The choice of messenger might have been a bit unexpected, but is in line with that little detail that apparently nobody in the UK government knows if UK has any trade negotiators, or where they are.)
Talez' interpretation also works, of course.
posted by effbot at 8:41 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
How about US residents appalled at the actions of the US government? Asking for a friend.
I mean, I won't pretend I haven't looked at Scottish, Irish, and Dutch real estate lately, but considering Americans have spent 70 years building up the military capacity to melt the entire gd world, I sort of feel like we should stay here and fight to keep that military capacity from actually melting the entire world.
At least until climate change kicks in.
I don't know what to say, UK people, except that I hope you guys can wrestle control of the ship back from the crazy people, too.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:42 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
I mean, I won't pretend I haven't looked at Scottish, Irish, and Dutch real estate lately, but considering Americans have spent 70 years building up the military capacity to melt the entire gd world, I sort of feel like we should stay here and fight to keep that military capacity from actually melting the entire world.
At least until climate change kicks in.
I don't know what to say, UK people, except that I hope you guys can wrestle control of the ship back from the crazy people, too.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:42 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
And verstegan's is even better. How did I forget about that cow, especially when I read that article just the other day.
posted by effbot at 8:43 AM on March 20, 2017
posted by effbot at 8:43 AM on March 20, 2017
Fetchez le vache!
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:43 AM on March 20, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:43 AM on March 20, 2017 [12 favorites]
With the greatest of respect, would you say that about any other form of identity?
Would you agree with me that employing leverage on any division between two groups of people, whether that be national, linguistic, ethnic, religious or racial, might be the fault of those demagogues who do so, rather than the fact we all have differences and see ourselves as falling into particular groups?
No, I would not agree. The demagogues are a lagging indicator of our need to blame/demonize/other, a symptom of our collective sickness, rather than the instigators of said sickness in an otherwise enlightened species. In fact, we have to work damned hard to establish societies that respect and support differences, rather than falling back in to our bad collective habits. Demagogues arise to exploit these tendencies.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:44 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Would you agree with me that employing leverage on any division between two groups of people, whether that be national, linguistic, ethnic, religious or racial, might be the fault of those demagogues who do so, rather than the fact we all have differences and see ourselves as falling into particular groups?
No, I would not agree. The demagogues are a lagging indicator of our need to blame/demonize/other, a symptom of our collective sickness, rather than the instigators of said sickness in an otherwise enlightened species. In fact, we have to work damned hard to establish societies that respect and support differences, rather than falling back in to our bad collective habits. Demagogues arise to exploit these tendencies.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:44 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Brexit was when I first realized Trump had a chance.
Same feeling both times. I went to bed confident sanity would prevail, woke to find I was in Bizzaro World.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:44 AM on March 20, 2017 [31 favorites]
Same feeling both times. I went to bed confident sanity would prevail, woke to find I was in Bizzaro World.
posted by cjorgensen at 8:44 AM on March 20, 2017 [31 favorites]
National identity has more blood on its hands than any other concept of the past century-plus, at least.
Messrs. Stalin, Mao, and Pot on lines 1-3.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:45 AM on March 20, 2017 [13 favorites]
Messrs. Stalin, Mao, and Pot on lines 1-3.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:45 AM on March 20, 2017 [13 favorites]
The Brexiteers seem to think that they can work out a cosy deal with the EU. I’m really not sure that’s going to work, but if it does it’ll be an impressive piece of diplomacy.
My take: The EU was quite happy to face down Greece’s threats to quit the Euro. They’ll face down the UK in order to preserve the union at all costs too. If that means chucking us out on our ears with no deal, then they’ll be quite happy to do that.
It’s this key point that I don’t think the core Brexiteers quite grasp. Yes, a hard Brexit will be bad for the EU. But the EU leadership (both national and at the EU level) sees that as a less bad outcome than anything that threatens the future of the EU, so they’re quite happy to walk away from negotiations if that’s what it takes.
posted by pharm at 8:45 AM on March 20, 2017 [18 favorites]
My take: The EU was quite happy to face down Greece’s threats to quit the Euro. They’ll face down the UK in order to preserve the union at all costs too. If that means chucking us out on our ears with no deal, then they’ll be quite happy to do that.
It’s this key point that I don’t think the core Brexiteers quite grasp. Yes, a hard Brexit will be bad for the EU. But the EU leadership (both national and at the EU level) sees that as a less bad outcome than anything that threatens the future of the EU, so they’re quite happy to walk away from negotiations if that’s what it takes.
posted by pharm at 8:45 AM on March 20, 2017 [18 favorites]
National identity has more blood on its hands than any other concept of the past century-plus, at least. Given its access to modern tools, it's got to be on the all-time leader board.
I think "nation" and "national identity" can be used in many ways. I think the big problem is that, insidiously, national identity has come to mean both ethnic and political identity, with less and less recognition that things could be any different. It is certainly what underlies "nationalist" movements.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:46 AM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think "nation" and "national identity" can be used in many ways. I think the big problem is that, insidiously, national identity has come to mean both ethnic and political identity, with less and less recognition that things could be any different. It is certainly what underlies "nationalist" movements.
posted by Zalzidrax at 8:46 AM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
I haven't seen any description of any hoped-for brexit outcome that doesn't amount to "we want exactly what we have now, except with more britishness and less brown people."
posted by mhoye at 8:48 AM on March 20, 2017 [30 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 8:48 AM on March 20, 2017 [30 favorites]
(As I felt the need to note on Hacker News ...)
I would just like to note that March 25th (Saturday) is the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome, which created the European Economic Community (from which the EU evolved).
Imagine serving divorce papers on your spouse on a significant wedding anniversary, and now consider the message it sends.
It's like Theresa May has carefully picked the time to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that will cause maximum offense to the people she's about to negotiate a critically important trade deal with (from a position of inferior leverage).
posted by cstross at 8:48 AM on March 20, 2017 [27 favorites]
I would just like to note that March 25th (Saturday) is the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome, which created the European Economic Community (from which the EU evolved).
Imagine serving divorce papers on your spouse on a significant wedding anniversary, and now consider the message it sends.
It's like Theresa May has carefully picked the time to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that will cause maximum offense to the people she's about to negotiate a critically important trade deal with (from a position of inferior leverage).
posted by cstross at 8:48 AM on March 20, 2017 [27 favorites]
Goodbye, United Kingdom.
Very much this, I'm afraid.
This article in the Guardian cheered me up a bit though. It points out that:
Very much this, I'm afraid.
This article in the Guardian cheered me up a bit though. It points out that:
The real story last week in the Netherlands was the historic collapse of the Dutch equivalent of the Labour party – one of the two pillars of the postwar consensus. The other story was the spectacular gains for two parties that are unashamedly pro-EU: the Democrats 66 and the Greens. So much for the collapse in support for the “broken, dying EU project” that the Daily Mail likes to talk about.posted by ZipRibbons at 8:49 AM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
There is absolutely no indication that the EU will let the UK off easily. It would be very foolish of them to do so, and they know it. IMO, the reelection of Donald Tusk was a strong signal that these guys are playing hard and strong, and they will not be stopped.
posted by mumimor at 8:50 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 8:50 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
What I would really like to see is a strong positive statement that the farmers are going to be left to rot outside the Common Agricultural Policy.
posted by biffa at 8:52 AM on March 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by biffa at 8:52 AM on March 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
Another depressing headline: Brexit more important than keeping the UK together, public say in poll for the Telegraph. Or, as one reddit commenter put it: ‘anything to save ourselves from the nightmare of a profitable and convenient partnership with our neighbours on the continent.’
posted by misteraitch at 8:53 AM on March 20, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by misteraitch at 8:53 AM on March 20, 2017 [24 favorites]
The situation is absurd. May and the Tories have adopted a hard stance knowing they are now too far along to back down for fear of electoral backlash. The EU negotiators will have to adopt a hard stance knowing that any concessions they give to the UK will immediately be demanded by other EU members on threat of the whole thing collapsing.
I don't see an easy way out. Perhaps the negotiations will go so badly and become so protracted that the public mood warms towards a softer deal – but that seems like one hell of a gamble currently. What a mess.
posted by mushhushshu at 8:56 AM on March 20, 2017
I don't see an easy way out. Perhaps the negotiations will go so badly and become so protracted that the public mood warms towards a softer deal – but that seems like one hell of a gamble currently. What a mess.
posted by mushhushshu at 8:56 AM on March 20, 2017
This article in the Guardian cheered me up a bit though. It points out that:
Not sure why thats cheerful. The Dutch election (and now upcoming French it looks like) will narrowly eke out wins for the same out neoliberal cheerleaders that may or may not win next time. In the US, the same old neoliberal warmonger lost and now we have herr trumpy, so be careful for wishing for collapse of Labor parties. We need the worker, the poor, the needy and to help everybody no matter how boorish or not culturally liberal they are...
posted by yonation at 8:57 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not sure why thats cheerful. The Dutch election (and now upcoming French it looks like) will narrowly eke out wins for the same out neoliberal cheerleaders that may or may not win next time. In the US, the same old neoliberal warmonger lost and now we have herr trumpy, so be careful for wishing for collapse of Labor parties. We need the worker, the poor, the needy and to help everybody no matter how boorish or not culturally liberal they are...
posted by yonation at 8:57 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
The reality is as long as the French election doesn't go to Le Pen and Merkel stays in control over Germany most of the political fallout of a Brexit will have been successfully managed by the continent.
The actual negotiating parties will be some of those 'faceless Brussels bureaucrats' that everyone seems to enjoy punching on and they have very very few reasons to be lenient with the UK and about a zillion reasons to take a very hard line.
In contrast May definitely has to deliver the equivalent of the status quo with less refugees and less Eastern Europeans to make people happy and she about as likely to restore the Victorian Empire as accomplish that task.
I mean this is an absolute failure of negotiation, you don't go to renegotiate terms when you're position is completely awful and the opposition has a nearly unassailable position of strength. If anything the UK should basically be assuming that they'll get a shittier version of the Norway-EU relationship.
posted by vuron at 8:58 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
The actual negotiating parties will be some of those 'faceless Brussels bureaucrats' that everyone seems to enjoy punching on and they have very very few reasons to be lenient with the UK and about a zillion reasons to take a very hard line.
In contrast May definitely has to deliver the equivalent of the status quo with less refugees and less Eastern Europeans to make people happy and she about as likely to restore the Victorian Empire as accomplish that task.
I mean this is an absolute failure of negotiation, you don't go to renegotiate terms when you're position is completely awful and the opposition has a nearly unassailable position of strength. If anything the UK should basically be assuming that they'll get a shittier version of the Norway-EU relationship.
posted by vuron at 8:58 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
92% drop in EU nationals registering as nurses in England and Wales. 4 in 10 EU-trained doctors are thinking of leaving the country. The NHS was in staffing crisis before this happened. Forget the economic meltdown, we're all going to die before we even get that far.
posted by Vortisaur at 8:59 AM on March 20, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by Vortisaur at 8:59 AM on March 20, 2017 [23 favorites]
I still can't believe that a party that has one MP managed to coerce the ruling party that it needed to have a referendum in the first place.
Small minded people with only their own careers to think about will doom us all.
posted by trif at 9:01 AM on March 20, 2017 [12 favorites]
Small minded people with only their own careers to think about will doom us all.
posted by trif at 9:01 AM on March 20, 2017 [12 favorites]
@yonation - it was "the spectacular gains for two parties that are unashamedly pro-EU" that cheered me up, rather than the collapse of the PvdA.
posted by ZipRibbons at 9:05 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ZipRibbons at 9:05 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
My take: The EU was quite happy to face down Greece’s threats to quit the Euro. They’ll face down the UK in order to preserve the union at all costs too. If that means chucking us out on our ears with no deal, then they’ll be quite happy to do that.
It’s this key point that I don’t think the core Brexiteers quite grasp.
I think they do grasp it, but it won't affect them because most of them are rich. In fact, most will benefit from the resulting de-regulated tax-haven based shitplace as they'll be able to exploit the fuck out of anyone unlucky enough to be left here (in WEngland).
So, I'm sure they do, they have zero capacity for empathy, don't give a shit, and probably look forward to it.
posted by rolandroland at 9:08 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
FYI March for Europe happening this Saturday 25th
posted by litleozy at 9:24 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by litleozy at 9:24 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
I still can't believe that a party that has one MP managed to coerce the ruling party that it needed to have a referendum in the first place.
That's not what happened. The actual ruling party, with its many MPs who have wanted to leave the EU for a long time, coerced its leader into holding a referendum if he wanted to stay as their leader. He agreed, because that's the sort of short term imbecility that characterises our political class. Shortly after he was re-elected as PM he started the referendum process.
posted by biffa at 9:29 AM on March 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
That's not what happened. The actual ruling party, with its many MPs who have wanted to leave the EU for a long time, coerced its leader into holding a referendum if he wanted to stay as their leader. He agreed, because that's the sort of short term imbecility that characterises our political class. Shortly after he was re-elected as PM he started the referendum process.
posted by biffa at 9:29 AM on March 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
Eurosceptic politicians and journalists have been banging on about the evils of Europe for decades. There’s no way they can allow themselves to admit that they never actually had a plan for what to do instead.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 9:30 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 9:30 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Unemployment down, exports up. "Brexit has still to hit." Well, sure, but so far nothing much feels as though it has changed for the worse. Remainers have been destroying expectations so aggressively that they risk making even a messy exit look relatively good. May only needs a few small wins and a moderate amount of "not too bad" agreements, and the end to uncertainty will help immensely.
I thought leaving the EU would be immediately bad but positive in the long run. I no longer believe that it will be as bad, or for as long, as I thought.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:34 AM on March 20, 2017
I thought leaving the EU would be immediately bad but positive in the long run. I no longer believe that it will be as bad, or for as long, as I thought.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:34 AM on March 20, 2017
I do believe this whole thing is going to be slower and less dramatic, but at the same time less predictable, than many people on both sides believe.
The pantomime in Scotland looks to me like the SNP simply being desperate for another shot of referendum adrenaline, whereas it would do better to concentrate on trying to provide evidence that it can run the country properly.
What does worry me is the Irish situation, which is really difficult but seems to be more or less ignored or dismissed in Westminster so far.
posted by Segundus at 9:40 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
The pantomime in Scotland looks to me like the SNP simply being desperate for another shot of referendum adrenaline, whereas it would do better to concentrate on trying to provide evidence that it can run the country properly.
What does worry me is the Irish situation, which is really difficult but seems to be more or less ignored or dismissed in Westminster so far.
posted by Segundus at 9:40 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't worry too much about the German elections. If Merkel doesn't win, it will be Schulz's turn who is very pro EU. All significant parties are pro EU.
The far left "Die Linke" is somewhat anti EU, the far right AfD is anti EU. Only "The Linke" has some chance of becoming part of a new government coalition and is not that invested in their anti-EU stance. They are probably just fishing for extremist votes and do not plan to deliver. (Nevertheless I am not interested in testing that theory and would be happy to see both the Linke and the AfD not getting many votes.)
The French elections, those will be nerve-wrecking.
posted by mmkhd at 9:41 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
The far left "Die Linke" is somewhat anti EU, the far right AfD is anti EU. Only "The Linke" has some chance of becoming part of a new government coalition and is not that invested in their anti-EU stance. They are probably just fishing for extremist votes and do not plan to deliver. (Nevertheless I am not interested in testing that theory and would be happy to see both the Linke and the AfD not getting many votes.)
The French elections, those will be nerve-wrecking.
posted by mmkhd at 9:41 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
£ has dropped like a rock Emma May Smith. Both those outcomes are reasonable consequences of that drop in the short term.
Brexit, meanwhile, hasn’t actually happened yet nor has the form which it will take been decided.
posted by pharm at 9:45 AM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
Brexit, meanwhile, hasn’t actually happened yet nor has the form which it will take been decided.
posted by pharm at 9:45 AM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
I was in Ireland (not Northern Ireland) a few weeks ago on business, the prospect of a united Ireland due to Brexit was all anyone could talk about. The optimism there was a refreshing change from being back here in the US and the overwhelming feeling of impending doom. Seriously, the smiles and chatter of folks asking my option and listening to what I thought was intoxicating (also the beer - but never mind that).
In short, if you're feeling bad, a quick trip to Dublin to talk to taxi drivers may be the single best anti-depressant of all time. As one told me, "We've finally figured out that we can use words and numbers instead of fists and guns to make a difference, I hope the rest of the world finds that out soon..."
posted by 1f2frfbf at 9:47 AM on March 20, 2017 [13 favorites]
In short, if you're feeling bad, a quick trip to Dublin to talk to taxi drivers may be the single best anti-depressant of all time. As one told me, "We've finally figured out that we can use words and numbers instead of fists and guns to make a difference, I hope the rest of the world finds that out soon..."
posted by 1f2frfbf at 9:47 AM on March 20, 2017 [13 favorites]
The pantomime in Scotland looks to me like the SNP simply being desperate for another shot of referendum adrenaline, whereas it would do better to concentrate on trying to provide evidence that it can run the country properly.
That's not how it looks to me up here in Scotland. I think there's a very significant chance of this breaking up the UK.
In related news: the Scottish, N. Irish and Welsh governments apparently did not get advance notification of this announcement, and found out the same time as the rest of us. That's not going to win many hearts and minds...
posted by Catseye at 9:48 AM on March 20, 2017 [16 favorites]
That's not how it looks to me up here in Scotland. I think there's a very significant chance of this breaking up the UK.
In related news: the Scottish, N. Irish and Welsh governments apparently did not get advance notification of this announcement, and found out the same time as the rest of us. That's not going to win many hearts and minds...
posted by Catseye at 9:48 AM on March 20, 2017 [16 favorites]
I thought leaving the EU would be immediately bad but positive in the long run. I no longer believe that it will be as bad, or for as long, as I thought.
Right up until the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland reverts to how it was before the Good Friday Agreement--nothing Troubling about that prospect, I guess.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:49 AM on March 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
Right up until the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland reverts to how it was before the Good Friday Agreement--nothing Troubling about that prospect, I guess.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:49 AM on March 20, 2017 [11 favorites]
The Tories have drafted some terribly written law in their time, but I have a feeling the Great Repeal Bill may top them all.
Remainers have been destroying expectations so aggressively that they risk making even a messy exit look relatively good.
Look good to who, though? What does it looking good actually entail?
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:51 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Remainers have been destroying expectations so aggressively that they risk making even a messy exit look relatively good.
Look good to who, though? What does it looking good actually entail?
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:51 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
What is the supposed benefit of exit? The strength of exit is that you threaten it to get concessions but that you never actually go through with it. Think of it as the Quebec gambit.
Instead it's always seemed like England would like to be part of a greater union just not one dominated by the Germans. But Trump is rapidly showing that the special relationship means jack squat in Washington now.
Can the UK stand alone in the world economy? It seems that outside of a few Euroskeptics the idea that the UK can effectively compete with the US or China or the Common Market is laughable at best.
posted by vuron at 9:55 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Instead it's always seemed like England would like to be part of a greater union just not one dominated by the Germans. But Trump is rapidly showing that the special relationship means jack squat in Washington now.
Can the UK stand alone in the world economy? It seems that outside of a few Euroskeptics the idea that the UK can effectively compete with the US or China or the Common Market is laughable at best.
posted by vuron at 9:55 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's really nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with sovereignty, in that the EU was the only thing stopping the UK racing to the bottom and becoming a massive tax haven. The UK political class has sold out the continent (and the person in the street) to become the class snitch for an extra bag of sweets from the rich kids.
United we stood.
posted by davemee at 10:08 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
United we stood.
posted by davemee at 10:08 AM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
Nicola Sturgeon has called for a second referendum on Scottish independence and invited all those UK residents appalled at the actions of the UK government to move to Scotland
is she taking rhetorical notes from US conservatives? "oh, there are no jobs there? well just pick up and move to where the jobs are, duh!" is a common refrain on this side of the Atlantic.
posted by indubitable at 10:18 AM on March 20, 2017
is she taking rhetorical notes from US conservatives? "oh, there are no jobs there? well just pick up and move to where the jobs are, duh!" is a common refrain on this side of the Atlantic.
posted by indubitable at 10:18 AM on March 20, 2017
Nicola Sturgeon has called for a second referendum on Scottish independence and invited all those UK residents appalled at the actions of the UK government to move to Scotland
is she taking rhetorical notes from US conservatives? "oh, there are no jobs there? well just pick up and move to where the jobs are, duh!" is a common refrain on this side of the Atlantic.
There's a difference between "Why don't you go to where the jobs are?" and "Why don't you come to where the jobs are?" Plus that wasn't really about jobs, so.
posted by Etrigan at 10:20 AM on March 20, 2017 [31 favorites]
is she taking rhetorical notes from US conservatives? "oh, there are no jobs there? well just pick up and move to where the jobs are, duh!" is a common refrain on this side of the Atlantic.
There's a difference between "Why don't you go to where the jobs are?" and "Why don't you come to where the jobs are?" Plus that wasn't really about jobs, so.
posted by Etrigan at 10:20 AM on March 20, 2017 [31 favorites]
Unemployment down, exports up. "Brexit has still to hit." Well, sure, but so far nothing much feels as though it has changed for the worse.
Food Inflation Doubles In a Month As UK Shoppers Start To Feel the Pinch e.g. butter up 15%, fish up 8%, and tea up more than 6% since EU referendum
The chief difficulty is that the results of Brexit won't be felt as direct shocks but as cascading effects through the economy. For instance, there's been a slowdown in direct business investment and in the growth of the service sector, which will affect unemployment eventually but not immediately. Meanwhile, housing prices are up, and with construction costs increasing because of the weak pound, new housing isn't being built to offset this. As wage growth continues to decrease and inflation increase, pressure will come down on incomes and then in turn on consumer confidence. The Bank of England already cut interest rate in half following the EU referendum, but it has only so many mitigating monetary tools at its disposal.
The Tories appear to be betting they can ram through Brexit quickly enough to prevent the electorate from putting two and two together when it comes to its consequences. International trade mechanisms and supply chains are harder to grasp from the ground level than, say, fewer Polish groceries on the High Street.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:21 AM on March 20, 2017 [17 favorites]
Food Inflation Doubles In a Month As UK Shoppers Start To Feel the Pinch e.g. butter up 15%, fish up 8%, and tea up more than 6% since EU referendum
The chief difficulty is that the results of Brexit won't be felt as direct shocks but as cascading effects through the economy. For instance, there's been a slowdown in direct business investment and in the growth of the service sector, which will affect unemployment eventually but not immediately. Meanwhile, housing prices are up, and with construction costs increasing because of the weak pound, new housing isn't being built to offset this. As wage growth continues to decrease and inflation increase, pressure will come down on incomes and then in turn on consumer confidence. The Bank of England already cut interest rate in half following the EU referendum, but it has only so many mitigating monetary tools at its disposal.
The Tories appear to be betting they can ram through Brexit quickly enough to prevent the electorate from putting two and two together when it comes to its consequences. International trade mechanisms and supply chains are harder to grasp from the ground level than, say, fewer Polish groceries on the High Street.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:21 AM on March 20, 2017 [17 favorites]
There's a difference between "Why don't you go to where the jobs are?" and "Why don't you come to where the jobs are?" Plus that wasn't really about jobs, so.
it's the same problem: the people who are going to be most hurt by this are the least able to just up stakes and move to a new area. she's addressing the problem of Scotland taking most of the socialist-leaning politics of the UK with it when it secedes by saying, "oh, if that hurts you, you're free to move here, we won't stop you".
posted by indubitable at 10:27 AM on March 20, 2017
it's the same problem: the people who are going to be most hurt by this are the least able to just up stakes and move to a new area. she's addressing the problem of Scotland taking most of the socialist-leaning politics of the UK with it when it secedes by saying, "oh, if that hurts you, you're free to move here, we won't stop you".
posted by indubitable at 10:27 AM on March 20, 2017
A bunch of people got their country back, or at least so they are inclined to believe. They are welcome to it. I have secured another.
posted by vbfg at 10:30 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 10:30 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sturgeon has called for a second referendum on Scottish independence and invited all those UK residents appalled at the actions of the UK government to move to Scotland;
They are going to rebuild Hadrian's Wall. It will be a great, beautiful wall. And they will make the English pay for it.
posted by JackFlash at 10:31 AM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
They are going to rebuild Hadrian's Wall. It will be a great, beautiful wall. And they will make the English pay for it.
posted by JackFlash at 10:31 AM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
They are going to rebuild Hadrian's Wall. It will be a great, beautiful wall. And they will make the English pay for it.
A friendly reminder that Hadrian's Wall is not the same as the Anglo-Scottish border. In fact there's a chunk of England north of the wall that's bigger than Rhode Island.
posted by mushhushshu at 10:43 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
A friendly reminder that Hadrian's Wall is not the same as the Anglo-Scottish border. In fact there's a chunk of England north of the wall that's bigger than Rhode Island.
posted by mushhushshu at 10:43 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Brexit was when I first realized Trump had a chance.
Same feeling both times. I went to bed confident sanity would prevail, woke to find I was in Bizzaro World.
Me, too. In fact, the day of the U.S. election was the last day that I watched or listened to the news. I used to listen to a *lot* of NPR and BBC World News but I have completely lost faith that most of the news media can effectively provide important, substantive information especially now that the U.S. federal government is led by a man who is largely unpredictable.
posted by ElKevbo at 10:43 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Same feeling both times. I went to bed confident sanity would prevail, woke to find I was in Bizzaro World.
Me, too. In fact, the day of the U.S. election was the last day that I watched or listened to the news. I used to listen to a *lot* of NPR and BBC World News but I have completely lost faith that most of the news media can effectively provide important, substantive information especially now that the U.S. federal government is led by a man who is largely unpredictable.
posted by ElKevbo at 10:43 AM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am still completely amazed that many people in the UK are willingly giving up their right to live and work in 27 other nations and the right of their children to do so and are like...*shrug*.
But this equality and partnership is not a model that seems to come naturally. From what I can tell what they yearn for is a lost empire full of other countries slaving away on their behalf. Or perhaps being the weak kid riding the bully's shoulder (USA). But I think Britain, with all its Lords and castles, is about to be pulled into the 21st century. Unfortunately, it will inveitably come with lots of needless pain and suffering both for them and other countries around them.
posted by vacapinta at 10:44 AM on March 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
But this equality and partnership is not a model that seems to come naturally. From what I can tell what they yearn for is a lost empire full of other countries slaving away on their behalf. Or perhaps being the weak kid riding the bully's shoulder (USA). But I think Britain, with all its Lords and castles, is about to be pulled into the 21st century. Unfortunately, it will inveitably come with lots of needless pain and suffering both for them and other countries around them.
posted by vacapinta at 10:44 AM on March 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
A friendly reminder that Hadrian's Wall is not the same as the Anglo-Scottish border. In fact there's a chunk of England north of the wall that's bigger than Rhode Island.
The Antonine Wall, then?
posted by Sangermaine at 10:54 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Antonine Wall, then?
posted by Sangermaine at 10:54 AM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am still completely amazed that many people in the UK are willingly giving up their right to live and work in 27 other nations and the right of their children to do so and are like...*shrug*.
There are probably two parts to this -- one, many of these voters will spend their entire lives (apart from some hols) within a 25 mile radius of where they were born. And the others can't even comprehend a world where they'll lose rights. That's what they mean by the "great deal" they expect to get: strip the rights of the foreigners, keep the rights of the Brits.
(There's a bleak as hell Guardian video talking to expats in Spain that articulates this beautifully. "We're not foreigners, we're expats. Brits can't be foreigners wherever they are.")
Oh, there's a third part: a huge chunk of the Leave vote came from the Boomers, who were in late teens/early 20s when the UK began joining what became the EU. So, yet again they have taken something fantastic given to them by their parents, and promptly destroyed it for their children. "Rights of the children" seem utterly academic for this lot, who will if pressed probably only say "well it'll be hard work but this country needs some hard work, we had to work jolly hard in our day".
posted by bonaldi at 11:00 AM on March 20, 2017 [42 favorites]
There are probably two parts to this -- one, many of these voters will spend their entire lives (apart from some hols) within a 25 mile radius of where they were born. And the others can't even comprehend a world where they'll lose rights. That's what they mean by the "great deal" they expect to get: strip the rights of the foreigners, keep the rights of the Brits.
(There's a bleak as hell Guardian video talking to expats in Spain that articulates this beautifully. "We're not foreigners, we're expats. Brits can't be foreigners wherever they are.")
Oh, there's a third part: a huge chunk of the Leave vote came from the Boomers, who were in late teens/early 20s when the UK began joining what became the EU. So, yet again they have taken something fantastic given to them by their parents, and promptly destroyed it for their children. "Rights of the children" seem utterly academic for this lot, who will if pressed probably only say "well it'll be hard work but this country needs some hard work, we had to work jolly hard in our day".
posted by bonaldi at 11:00 AM on March 20, 2017 [42 favorites]
→ The Antonine Wall, then?
No, that wall has more than half of Scotland's population south of it. Any colonists who considered the locals bandits really shouldn't be defining country borders nearly 2000 years later.
This is all so very wrong, this Brexit thing.
posted by scruss at 11:22 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
No, that wall has more than half of Scotland's population south of it. Any colonists who considered the locals bandits really shouldn't be defining country borders nearly 2000 years later.
This is all so very wrong, this Brexit thing.
posted by scruss at 11:22 AM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Can't count on an ancient wall to lock down the border. Really need some sort of new castle up there to be sure.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:25 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:25 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
What is the supposed benefit of exit
Self-rule, I imagine. But they've been promised it with candy stripes, and there's bound to be a rude awakening.
posted by corb at 11:31 AM on March 20, 2017
Self-rule, I imagine. But they've been promised it with candy stripes, and there's bound to be a rude awakening.
posted by corb at 11:31 AM on March 20, 2017
Sovereignty is the smug bullshit answer you will get if you ask middle class brexiters why they think it is imperative to leave. But if you dig many have also bought into the imaginary benefits we will get from trading with people further away and with less money.
posted by biffa at 11:40 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by biffa at 11:40 AM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
Any time any Tory ever, ever claims anyone else is foolish or irresponsible, the instant answer for all time has to be:
"Irresponsible? Your party held a non-binding referendum in a stupid gamble to quiet down your Eurosceptic wing, lost it, then doubled down and ran the country into economic collapse and balkanisation so you wouldn't lose the frothing xenophobe vote. For a non-binding referendum."
Me-from-2014 is standing agog. The number of just-can't-happens that just went and happened, over and over again, to get us to this point, is frankly astonishing.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:04 PM on March 20, 2017 [39 favorites]
"Irresponsible? Your party held a non-binding referendum in a stupid gamble to quiet down your Eurosceptic wing, lost it, then doubled down and ran the country into economic collapse and balkanisation so you wouldn't lose the frothing xenophobe vote. For a non-binding referendum."
Me-from-2014 is standing agog. The number of just-can't-happens that just went and happened, over and over again, to get us to this point, is frankly astonishing.
posted by Happy Dave at 12:04 PM on March 20, 2017 [39 favorites]
amazed that many people in the UK are willingly giving up their right to live and work in 27 other nations
Nobody wants to live in those dirty, backward places, vacapinta. The people who were born there are all desperate to live in England; they huddle in Calais waiting for even the most hopeless opportunity to smuggle themselves in; they drown trying to swim to England, the one country where everyone wants to be. Every single migrant who gets into Europe heads straight for England as soon as ever they can. They all end up here, and 90% of the people who voted to keep us in the EU were immigrants themselves, doing it so that even more of them can come and live off our welfare state. Have you not read the Daily Mail?
posted by Segundus at 12:05 PM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
Nobody wants to live in those dirty, backward places, vacapinta. The people who were born there are all desperate to live in England; they huddle in Calais waiting for even the most hopeless opportunity to smuggle themselves in; they drown trying to swim to England, the one country where everyone wants to be. Every single migrant who gets into Europe heads straight for England as soon as ever they can. They all end up here, and 90% of the people who voted to keep us in the EU were immigrants themselves, doing it so that even more of them can come and live off our welfare state. Have you not read the Daily Mail?
posted by Segundus at 12:05 PM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
I think that Douglas Adams captured the mentality best with the people of Krikkit. Not, of course Brexit itself, but whatever those same people were up to in 1980s Britain*:
The reason they why they had never thought to themselves "We are alone in the Universe," was that until one night, they didn't know about the Universe.
[They discover the universe outside their world]
They flew out of the cloud.
They saw the staggering jewels of the night in their infinite dust and their minds sang with fear.
"It'll have to go," the men of Krikkit said as they headed back for home.
Overnight the whole population of Krikkit was transformed from being charming, delightful, intelligent if whimsical, ordinary people, into charming, delightful, intelligent, whimsical, manic xenophobes. The idea of a Universe didn't fit into their world picture, so to speak. They simply couldn't cope with it. And so, charmingly, delightfully, intelligently, whimsically if you like, they decided to destroy it.
*To give them their due, many, but not all, of Thatcher's cabinet have come out all guns blazing against Brexit. Dishonourable mention to Nigel Lawson, and some other more forgettable people
posted by ambrosen at 12:19 PM on March 20, 2017 [22 favorites]
The reason they why they had never thought to themselves "We are alone in the Universe," was that until one night, they didn't know about the Universe.
[They discover the universe outside their world]
They flew out of the cloud.
They saw the staggering jewels of the night in their infinite dust and their minds sang with fear.
"It'll have to go," the men of Krikkit said as they headed back for home.
Overnight the whole population of Krikkit was transformed from being charming, delightful, intelligent if whimsical, ordinary people, into charming, delightful, intelligent, whimsical, manic xenophobes. The idea of a Universe didn't fit into their world picture, so to speak. They simply couldn't cope with it. And so, charmingly, delightfully, intelligently, whimsically if you like, they decided to destroy it.
*To give them their due, many, but not all, of Thatcher's cabinet have come out all guns blazing against Brexit. Dishonourable mention to Nigel Lawson, and some other more forgettable people
posted by ambrosen at 12:19 PM on March 20, 2017 [22 favorites]
Sorry, a poor joke. I certainly didn't mean to compare Sturgeon to Trump. I meant to parody Trump.
posted by JackFlash at 12:20 PM on March 20, 2017
posted by JackFlash at 12:20 PM on March 20, 2017
What a nightmare.
Fortunately, I’ve been saving a hash brown for years.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:08 PM on March 20, 2017
Fortunately, I’ve been saving a hash brown for years.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:08 PM on March 20, 2017
"Irresponsible? Your party held a non-binding referendum in a stupid gamble to quiet down your Eurosceptic wing, lost it, then doubled down and ran the country into economic collapse and balkanisation so you wouldn't lose the frothing xenophobe vote. For a non-binding referendum."
That's what gets me. Parliament is sovereign in the UK, not the people.
posted by Sebmojo at 1:12 PM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
That's what gets me. Parliament is sovereign in the UK, not the people.
posted by Sebmojo at 1:12 PM on March 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
I am still completely amazed that many people in the UK are willingly giving up their right to live and work in 27 other nations and the right of their children to do so and are like...*shrug*.
This is what pisses me off the most. I was born in England in 1973, the year the UK joined the European Economic Community, so I've been "a European" for my entire life.
It's more than just a nice idea to me. I've travelled widely, learned three European languages, and have been living in the Netherlands with my English partner for the past 15 years. We moved here just before they introduced the Euro, in fact.
Our kids were born here. We own a house here. I run a business here. It has been easy to do this, and we have felt lucky to be alive at a time when this way of life is possible.
Now here comes Brexit to take all that — my birthright and everything I've done with it — and just wipe it away like an embarrassing shit stain in the guest room lavatory.
And that hurts. It hurts me emotionally and it's almost certainly going to hurt me and my family in other, more material ways within the next few years.
In her conference speech last year, Theresa May said: “If you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere.”
This infuriated me so much that I looked for more context. Surely she couldn't be as bone-headed as this makes her sound...
I found a piece in the New Statesman in which she explains her reasoning:
But apparently it would be better — more community-minded, less individualistic — to pull the UK out of this community. Setting an example at a national level that the best way to engage is to withdraw?
Words fail me.
Now I feel stupid for not speaking up like this earlier, when I might have been able to make a difference. I just didn't realise that so many people didn't feel the same way as I do.
If push comes to shove — if the result of the negotiations is Britain turning its back on me and my family — then I will give up my British passport and become a Dutch citizen. I'll do it reluctantly, but I'll feel like I have to.
I may come from England, but I live in Europe.
Fuck Brexit. Fuck the Leavers. Fuck the Conservative party. Fuck you David Cameron, and fuck you Theresa May.
posted by ZipRibbons at 2:14 PM on March 20, 2017 [96 favorites]
This is what pisses me off the most. I was born in England in 1973, the year the UK joined the European Economic Community, so I've been "a European" for my entire life.
It's more than just a nice idea to me. I've travelled widely, learned three European languages, and have been living in the Netherlands with my English partner for the past 15 years. We moved here just before they introduced the Euro, in fact.
Our kids were born here. We own a house here. I run a business here. It has been easy to do this, and we have felt lucky to be alive at a time when this way of life is possible.
Now here comes Brexit to take all that — my birthright and everything I've done with it — and just wipe it away like an embarrassing shit stain in the guest room lavatory.
And that hurts. It hurts me emotionally and it's almost certainly going to hurt me and my family in other, more material ways within the next few years.
In her conference speech last year, Theresa May said: “If you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere.”
This infuriated me so much that I looked for more context. Surely she couldn't be as bone-headed as this makes her sound...
I found a piece in the New Statesman in which she explains her reasoning:
“What I was saying was more about [how] people should have a root in a community, should have a feeling that they are part of a community and that they have responsibilities in a community,” May told me. “I was talking about the concept that you can be around the whole world and not have those responsibilities anywhere. I wasn’t getting at a particular grouping or individual . . . Recently there’s been a sense that all that matters is the individual, rather than their responsibilities to other people. I think we need to redress that balance.”I have extensive roots in my community. I feel deeply and strongly connected to my community: the European Community.
But apparently it would be better — more community-minded, less individualistic — to pull the UK out of this community. Setting an example at a national level that the best way to engage is to withdraw?
Words fail me.
Now I feel stupid for not speaking up like this earlier, when I might have been able to make a difference. I just didn't realise that so many people didn't feel the same way as I do.
If push comes to shove — if the result of the negotiations is Britain turning its back on me and my family — then I will give up my British passport and become a Dutch citizen. I'll do it reluctantly, but I'll feel like I have to.
I may come from England, but I live in Europe.
Fuck Brexit. Fuck the Leavers. Fuck the Conservative party. Fuck you David Cameron, and fuck you Theresa May.
posted by ZipRibbons at 2:14 PM on March 20, 2017 [96 favorites]
The chain of mendacious falsehoods on which Brexit is built is long and undeniable.
1. The Tory press decided - or discovered - that blaming Europe for everything, mostly by straightforward fabrication, was good for business.
2. Politicians took note, and were happy to use this as cover for mismanagement and the deployment of dismal doctrinate policies.
3. The advent of the Euro was used as a rallying cry to GTFO of Europe, and UKIP started to get some traction to the right of the Tories. That we didn't adopt the Euro is ignored.
4. The right-wing press got on board as its readers were primed and ready
5. Fearing a split on the right, Cameron decided to pledge a referendum on the issue, to cork UKIPs guns, on the grounds that it couldn't possibly go for Leave.
6. Labour... oh, let's not talk about Labour.
7. Referendume time! The quantity of lies at this point is more numerous than the stars at night.
8. The 'advisory' referendum that does not mention leaving the common trade area, imposing immigraion restrictions or baling out of most cross-Europe agreements, is taken as binding on all these things.
9. Hard Brexit is going to be good for the country, so don't think about arguing.
The rumour is that May is going to call a surprise election for two months' time, to establish a solid mandate for fucking the entire country up the arse with a welding rod and grinding paste. It's inconceivable she'd lose, as the by-now-near-total collapse of Labour is gathering pace, and there's nobody else.
Still, there is a chance that as the actual hour of Brexit gets closer, the signs of fabulous chaos will become too great to ignore and the whole thing will be called off at metaphorical gunpoint.
But by all that is evil in this world, my viscerial hatred of the right could not be more solid if it was supercooled granite.
posted by Devonian at 2:42 PM on March 20, 2017 [40 favorites]
1. The Tory press decided - or discovered - that blaming Europe for everything, mostly by straightforward fabrication, was good for business.
2. Politicians took note, and were happy to use this as cover for mismanagement and the deployment of dismal doctrinate policies.
3. The advent of the Euro was used as a rallying cry to GTFO of Europe, and UKIP started to get some traction to the right of the Tories. That we didn't adopt the Euro is ignored.
4. The right-wing press got on board as its readers were primed and ready
5. Fearing a split on the right, Cameron decided to pledge a referendum on the issue, to cork UKIPs guns, on the grounds that it couldn't possibly go for Leave.
6. Labour... oh, let's not talk about Labour.
7. Referendume time! The quantity of lies at this point is more numerous than the stars at night.
8. The 'advisory' referendum that does not mention leaving the common trade area, imposing immigraion restrictions or baling out of most cross-Europe agreements, is taken as binding on all these things.
9. Hard Brexit is going to be good for the country, so don't think about arguing.
The rumour is that May is going to call a surprise election for two months' time, to establish a solid mandate for fucking the entire country up the arse with a welding rod and grinding paste. It's inconceivable she'd lose, as the by-now-near-total collapse of Labour is gathering pace, and there's nobody else.
Still, there is a chance that as the actual hour of Brexit gets closer, the signs of fabulous chaos will become too great to ignore and the whole thing will be called off at metaphorical gunpoint.
But by all that is evil in this world, my viscerial hatred of the right could not be more solid if it was supercooled granite.
posted by Devonian at 2:42 PM on March 20, 2017 [40 favorites]
Brexit, meanwhile, hasn’t actually happened yet nor has the form which it will take been decided.
Brexit will come in one of the pre-chosen forms! During the rectification of the Vuldronaii, Brexit came as a large and moving Torb! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Meketrex Supplicants, they chose a new form for it...that of a giant Sloar! Many Shuvs and Zools knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day, I can tell you!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:48 PM on March 20, 2017 [29 favorites]
Brexit will come in one of the pre-chosen forms! During the rectification of the Vuldronaii, Brexit came as a large and moving Torb! Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Meketrex Supplicants, they chose a new form for it...that of a giant Sloar! Many Shuvs and Zools knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day, I can tell you!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:48 PM on March 20, 2017 [29 favorites]
"I tried to think of the most harmless thing. Something I loved from my childhood. Something that could never ever possibly destroy us."
*two-hundred-foot Basil Brush smashes Nelson's Column* BOOM BOOM!
posted by delfin at 2:55 PM on March 20, 2017 [21 favorites]
*two-hundred-foot Basil Brush smashes Nelson's Column* BOOM BOOM!
posted by delfin at 2:55 PM on March 20, 2017 [21 favorites]
The chain of mendacious falsehoods on which Brexit is built is long and undeniable.
0. I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'
posted by lalochezia at 3:07 PM on March 20, 2017 [20 favorites]
If push comes to shove — if the result of the negotiations is Britain turning its back on me and my family — then I will give up my British passport and become a Dutch citizen. I'll do it reluctantly, but I'll feel like I have to.
Meanwhile, for those of us in the reverse position, the UK government has been hard at work making sure it's as hard as possible for us to get British citizenship. People who have lived here almost their entire lives, or are married to Brits, are finding themselves ineligible. In every little detail, Britain is dedicated to ensuring they stick two fingers up to the continent, come what may. Parliament made it quite clear that the UK government intends to play hardball with the rights of EU nationals here. I can only hope that EU negotiators are not above doing the same when it comes to it, or we're completely fucked (as opposed to the second-class citizen status we have now, to an extent not remotely true if Brits in the rest of the EU).
posted by Dysk at 3:08 PM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
Meanwhile, for those of us in the reverse position, the UK government has been hard at work making sure it's as hard as possible for us to get British citizenship. People who have lived here almost their entire lives, or are married to Brits, are finding themselves ineligible. In every little detail, Britain is dedicated to ensuring they stick two fingers up to the continent, come what may. Parliament made it quite clear that the UK government intends to play hardball with the rights of EU nationals here. I can only hope that EU negotiators are not above doing the same when it comes to it, or we're completely fucked (as opposed to the second-class citizen status we have now, to an extent not remotely true if Brits in the rest of the EU).
posted by Dysk at 3:08 PM on March 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
> "Can't count on an ancient wall to lock down the border. Really need some sort of new castle up there to be sure."
It can get cold up in the north. Better bring some coal there when you do it.
posted by kyrademon at 3:56 PM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
It can get cold up in the north. Better bring some coal there when you do it.
posted by kyrademon at 3:56 PM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Leave campaign was an abomination but I don't think it's possible to understand Brexit without a critical view of EU institutions and policy. The European Court of Justice has been rather creative in justifying its continuously expanding jurisdiction. The Euro was an expensive, poorly thought out gambit (and an outright failure according to some). The Eastern enlargement brought in deeply illiberal politics and fierce competition on labor (with ensuing exploitation and resentment). The "rescue" of Greece exposed a damningly callous, domineering side to the EU project. The negotiations with Ukraine and Turkey have resulted in a dangerous mess.
The article 50 exit negotiations with the UK present a serious challenge for the EU, perhaps the most serious in decades. It is the first time that the EU will have to negotiate with a country that (as a nuclear power, Commonwealth leader, financial hub, and architect of the post-War order) cannot be cowed into submission as easily as, say, Greece. I am not convinced that the EU will come out on top, but I don't think the UK will, either. The problem with Brexit is that it is difficult to see how there can be any winners, except, perhaps, peddlers of chaos and fear.
posted by dmh at 5:14 PM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
The article 50 exit negotiations with the UK present a serious challenge for the EU, perhaps the most serious in decades. It is the first time that the EU will have to negotiate with a country that (as a nuclear power, Commonwealth leader, financial hub, and architect of the post-War order) cannot be cowed into submission as easily as, say, Greece. I am not convinced that the EU will come out on top, but I don't think the UK will, either. The problem with Brexit is that it is difficult to see how there can be any winners, except, perhaps, peddlers of chaos and fear.
posted by dmh at 5:14 PM on March 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
Its certainly possible to see everyone being worse off as a result of Brexit; its also possible to see the UK being the bigger loser of the two.
The only mystery is what flavours of mendacious bullshit will we be fed for the coming decade as examples of how we are actually better off. Obviously any problems will be blamed on the EU for their intransigence and the naysayers for doing Britain down. I guess we might be looking at bigging up the new investment throwing out financial regulation will bring, while ignoring the collapse of our currently semi-legit financial sector as business shifts to Paris and Frankfurt.
posted by biffa at 5:47 PM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
The only mystery is what flavours of mendacious bullshit will we be fed for the coming decade as examples of how we are actually better off. Obviously any problems will be blamed on the EU for their intransigence and the naysayers for doing Britain down. I guess we might be looking at bigging up the new investment throwing out financial regulation will bring, while ignoring the collapse of our currently semi-legit financial sector as business shifts to Paris and Frankfurt.
posted by biffa at 5:47 PM on March 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
This seems to be taking democracy a little too far. If the majority voted to commit mass suicide, would the government feel obligated to pass out the cyanide?
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:07 PM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:07 PM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
I, myself, blame Obama.
posted by Chitownfats at 6:09 PM on March 20, 2017
posted by Chitownfats at 6:09 PM on March 20, 2017
The problem with Brexit is that it is difficult to see how there can be any winners, except, perhaps, peddlers of chaos and fear.
Is Pocaf an alternate spelling for Putin, by any chance? Because it bloody should be.
posted by comealongpole at 6:47 PM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is Pocaf an alternate spelling for Putin, by any chance? Because it bloody should be.
posted by comealongpole at 6:47 PM on March 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
@Emma May Smith...
but so far nothing much feels as though it has changed for the worse.
I'm taking a long shot here, but you might be too young to remember the Phony War. Like changing the course of an oil tanker, these things take time to work their way through. As others have remarked, we're already seeing price increases in basic goods and a change in the value of the pound. And where I work in finance, plans are well advanced to relocate some or all business to Europe.
I no longer believe that it will be as bad, or for as long, as I thought.
Hold on to that thought, because you might need it.
Whatever way you look at it, the UK is basically walking out of a relationship. What motivation does the other side have to give them an easy ride? Absolutely none that I can see, and asserting that "they need us more than we need them" doesn't seem to be based on anything very solid... or any more solid than the other promises, plans and vapourware from the leaders of the leave side.
The EU's primary objective at this point has to be to preserve the union, and that means making it unappealing for other countries to want to leave. I'd fully expect the UK to get offered a take-it-or-leave-it "hard exit" from the union, pour encourager les autres.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 7:32 PM on March 20, 2017 [19 favorites]
but so far nothing much feels as though it has changed for the worse.
I'm taking a long shot here, but you might be too young to remember the Phony War. Like changing the course of an oil tanker, these things take time to work their way through. As others have remarked, we're already seeing price increases in basic goods and a change in the value of the pound. And where I work in finance, plans are well advanced to relocate some or all business to Europe.
I no longer believe that it will be as bad, or for as long, as I thought.
Hold on to that thought, because you might need it.
Whatever way you look at it, the UK is basically walking out of a relationship. What motivation does the other side have to give them an easy ride? Absolutely none that I can see, and asserting that "they need us more than we need them" doesn't seem to be based on anything very solid... or any more solid than the other promises, plans and vapourware from the leaders of the leave side.
The EU's primary objective at this point has to be to preserve the union, and that means making it unappealing for other countries to want to leave. I'd fully expect the UK to get offered a take-it-or-leave-it "hard exit" from the union, pour encourager les autres.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 7:32 PM on March 20, 2017 [19 favorites]
dmh: "It is the first time that the EU will have to negotiate with a country that (as a nuclear power, Commonwealth leader, financial hub, and architect of the post-War order) cannot be cowed into submission as easily as, say, Greece."
This is the part I don't quite get. What leverage does the UK have over the EU? The only lever I can tell is their ability to impose punitive tariffs on EU imports. But the EU has the same power against the UK and the relative importances are not even close. The combined EU constitutes the biggest market for UK's exports while for each individual EU country, I believe the UK represents a significant but not overwhelmingly dominant export market. E.g.: the UK represents less than 10% of Germany's, France's, Italy's, and the Netherlands' exports whereas the whole EU represents 40-50% of UK's exports. And this is without even considering the two-year deadline or the possibility of European veto. I mean, it is true that the UK can bloody the EU to a much greater degree than Greece ever could; but that's not exactly the same thing as having a good bargaining position.
I don't see how the four factors you've listed contribute significantly to the UK's bargaining position:
This is the part I don't quite get. What leverage does the UK have over the EU? The only lever I can tell is their ability to impose punitive tariffs on EU imports. But the EU has the same power against the UK and the relative importances are not even close. The combined EU constitutes the biggest market for UK's exports while for each individual EU country, I believe the UK represents a significant but not overwhelmingly dominant export market. E.g.: the UK represents less than 10% of Germany's, France's, Italy's, and the Netherlands' exports whereas the whole EU represents 40-50% of UK's exports. And this is without even considering the two-year deadline or the possibility of European veto. I mean, it is true that the UK can bloody the EU to a much greater degree than Greece ever could; but that's not exactly the same thing as having a good bargaining position.
I don't see how the four factors you've listed contribute significantly to the UK's bargaining position:
- Unless the UK is willing to go nuclear over Article 50 negotiations, their status as a nuclear power should not really hold any sway. NATO, not Lisbon, would be the relevant treaty when it comes to that sort of thing, no?
- Unless the UK can convince the other Commonwealth countries to team up with them in trade agreements with the EU, this also does not appear to me as something the UK can use to its advantage. And, just as an example, Canada just wrapped up a four-to-seven-year process (depending on how you count it) to finalize their trade treaty with the EU so I imagine they'd be loathe to risk all that to ensure a smooth Brexit.
- Isn't this actually leverage that the EU has against the UK? I thought the idea was that in the event of a hard Brexit, all these London-based offices would lose their access to a bunch of their European business and would simply pull up stakes and move to Paris or Brussels or Luxembourg or Dublin or wherever.
- I think this is an instance where the question "Well, what have you done for me lately?" would come up. Also, the answer to that question appears to be "Try to blow up that post-War order for apparently no good reason."
The EU's primary objective at this point has to be to preserve the union, and that means making it unappealing for other countries to want to leave. I'd fully expect the UK to get offered a take-it-or-leave-it "hard exit" from the union, pour encourager les autres.
Ironically, Trump's win in the US probably made this more likely. I have little doubt that the US would have pressured the EU to go easy on the UK had someone who believed in the special relationship still been in charge. Trump is more likely to either just let the chips fall where they may or actively undermine the UK since the rest of the EU is a bigger trading partner than the UK alone.
If someone with sense were in charge, I'd expect there to be no public stance but much arm twisting behind the scenes to keep things amicable. Instead it seems like acrimony and retaliation will be happily allowed if the UK and EU choose to go that way.
Trump being Trump will probably give zero shits about the situation and focus on trying to get China to allow more imports from the US since China seems to be his bugbear.
posted by wierdo at 9:01 PM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ironically, Trump's win in the US probably made this more likely. I have little doubt that the US would have pressured the EU to go easy on the UK had someone who believed in the special relationship still been in charge. Trump is more likely to either just let the chips fall where they may or actively undermine the UK since the rest of the EU is a bigger trading partner than the UK alone.
If someone with sense were in charge, I'd expect there to be no public stance but much arm twisting behind the scenes to keep things amicable. Instead it seems like acrimony and retaliation will be happily allowed if the UK and EU choose to go that way.
Trump being Trump will probably give zero shits about the situation and focus on trying to get China to allow more imports from the US since China seems to be his bugbear.
posted by wierdo at 9:01 PM on March 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
Trump is more likely to either just let the chips fall where they may or actively undermine the UK since the rest of the EU is a bigger trading partner than the UK alone
Trump being Trump he will probably expend more energy trying to actively destroy the EU and weaken NATO to appease Putin.
posted by benzenedream at 10:40 PM on March 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
Trump being Trump he will probably expend more energy trying to actively destroy the EU and weaken NATO to appease Putin.
posted by benzenedream at 10:40 PM on March 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
Financial Times: A sensible Brexit deal is more probable than you think (Go via Google to avoid registration):
The debate about Brexit is largely informed by confirmation bias. If you are a Brexiter, you are likely to ignore any information that leaving the EU would be bad for the economy, or that the negotiations are going to be fiendishly difficult. If you are a Remainer, you keep doubling down with exaggerated warnings about economic doom...posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:52 PM on March 20, 2017
It would be reckless to predict that all will go smoothly. On the contrary; this will be as bitter and hard fought as any of the big battles of the past. What I do see, however, is that both sides have more to lose than to gain. This is a larger issue than the observation that the UK has relatively more to lose than the EU. That is trivially true, but not critical. Of far greater importance is that the UK is an integral part of the supply chains of the European car industry — especially now, after the sale of Vauxhall and Opel to Peugeot of France. The car industry will find a way to live with Brexit. But it cannot cope with sudden rupture...
So what about the ultimate argument — that the EU needs to punish the UK to set a disincentive for others to leave? This is complete piffle. I am unable to find a single country that would even come close. The country most isolated in the EU is Poland, but its electorate remains overwhelmingly in favour of EU membership. The Nordic countries may have lost their erstwhile enthusiasm for European integration, but none is anywhere near considering exit. Last week’s Dutch elections ended any fears, or hopes, of Nexit. A euro exit is another matter. But there is no queue of countries about to leave the EU...
What leverage does the UK have over the EU?
The EU and the UK are different things which can exercise power in different ways. The EU is first and foremost a common market. It has no tax collection agency, no police, no army, no border control, and little in the way of foreign policy, intelligence or propaganda. The EU can control access to the common market (to the extent that it is entirely dependent on the member states for enforcement), but the UK can exercise influence in many other ways as well, i.e. military, diplomatic, financial, and cultural, which affords all sorts of divide-and-conquer tactics, both within and without the EU (which Juncker has acknowledged). If we had a united EU with widespread support for (much needed) closer political, social and economic integration, we wouldn't have to worry about this, but Brexit is not some kind of anomaly -- France and the Netherlands (both founding members) rejected Lisbon in referendum and the EU is viewed unfavorably by >50% of people in countries like Spain, France and Italy. The EU is not as strong as it makes itself out to be.
posted by dmh at 10:54 PM on March 20, 2017
The EU and the UK are different things which can exercise power in different ways. The EU is first and foremost a common market. It has no tax collection agency, no police, no army, no border control, and little in the way of foreign policy, intelligence or propaganda. The EU can control access to the common market (to the extent that it is entirely dependent on the member states for enforcement), but the UK can exercise influence in many other ways as well, i.e. military, diplomatic, financial, and cultural, which affords all sorts of divide-and-conquer tactics, both within and without the EU (which Juncker has acknowledged). If we had a united EU with widespread support for (much needed) closer political, social and economic integration, we wouldn't have to worry about this, but Brexit is not some kind of anomaly -- France and the Netherlands (both founding members) rejected Lisbon in referendum and the EU is viewed unfavorably by >50% of people in countries like Spain, France and Italy. The EU is not as strong as it makes itself out to be.
posted by dmh at 10:54 PM on March 20, 2017
Brexit is not some kind of anomaly
OK, let me rephrase that: Brexit is a fucking catastrophe, yet perhaps not entirely unexpected.
posted by dmh at 11:01 PM on March 20, 2017
OK, let me rephrase that: Brexit is a fucking catastrophe, yet perhaps not entirely unexpected.
posted by dmh at 11:01 PM on March 20, 2017
In short, if you're feeling bad, a quick trip to Dublin to talk to taxi drivers may be the single best anti-depressant of all time. As one told me, "We've finally figured out that we can use words and numbers instead of fists and guns to make a difference, I hope the rest of the world finds that out soon..."
There was never support for violence in Dublin. Dubliners just want to make money and be left out of other peoples' crusades, much as they always have wanted. But the general belief in Dublin that violence is stupid has zero affect on the factions in then North hating each others guts and being the way they are. I'm 100% on the Dublin side of this argument so it's not knocking them but don't think Dublin attitudes mean much if anything in Belfast or Derry because they don't.
And there is no way a united Ireland could absorb all the infrastructure in the North and maintain it at the same level as the UK has: motorways, universities, ferry services, NHS, etc. Not to mention all the haters and violence/ policing.That would be interesting if it happened. Maybe Belfast will become a super rich tax haven and solve everyone's problem but it's much more likely it'll descend into ridiculous infighting again.
posted by fshgrl at 11:03 PM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
There was never support for violence in Dublin. Dubliners just want to make money and be left out of other peoples' crusades, much as they always have wanted. But the general belief in Dublin that violence is stupid has zero affect on the factions in then North hating each others guts and being the way they are. I'm 100% on the Dublin side of this argument so it's not knocking them but don't think Dublin attitudes mean much if anything in Belfast or Derry because they don't.
And there is no way a united Ireland could absorb all the infrastructure in the North and maintain it at the same level as the UK has: motorways, universities, ferry services, NHS, etc. Not to mention all the haters and violence/ policing.That would be interesting if it happened. Maybe Belfast will become a super rich tax haven and solve everyone's problem but it's much more likely it'll descend into ridiculous infighting again.
posted by fshgrl at 11:03 PM on March 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Theresa May to trigger Article 50 on 29th MarchI think the Tories are planting the seeds of their own destruction here.
Next Wednesday millions of kids will be heartbroken, their grief mirrored by their parents and the TV will be flooded with images of Theresa May callously ending a long standing relationship ignorant of the pain it will cause.
As they grow they will slowly form an idea in their minds that the Tory party is the ultimate evil and will become as deeply committed to their destruction as Neu Bevan ever was.
That's right, The Tories closed down Club Penguin!
posted by fullerine at 12:24 AM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's possible to understand Brexit without a critical view of EU institutions and policy.
Which there has not been, if by 'critical' you mean a nuanced evaluation of what the EU has done, good and bad, how it may have been done better and how it could be improved over time. Certainly, that narrative was no part of Brexit - because it would have to include the UK's role in the EU and its engagement and appetite for making the thing work. We never had a department for Europe, nor a minister thereof, and we never reconciled our post-imperalist hangovers with the need to go drinking in a different pub.
Which is OK, up to a point, because show me the European nation that doesn't have unresolved issues going back many lifetimes; expecting any relationship to cure your hang-ups is not in general a recipe for success. Being aware of how a relationship can be mutually beneficial through awareness of those lacunae and a mutual willingness to trade off the hardships of having two sets of personal issues with the benefits of having two sets of resources to deal with them, that's a different matter.
One of my many frustrations with Brexit is that, by all accounts, the UK was both willing and capable of being a very savvy and effective pro-EU operator within the institution. The people on the ground got all this. But successes were not seen as providing political capital back home, where conflict, antagonism and the perfidy of others were required. You can say the EU is undemocratic; why, then, downplay and marginalise the European elections and the role of MEPs, the fundamental elements of European democracy?
The EU certainly has systemic and specific flaws. To the list of those above, I'd add an inability to cohere on foreign policy, defence and key aspects of regulation, and an ability to spend freely on process rather than focus on goals witha willingness to be critical of itself when missing them. Which is rather to be expected of something that relies on turning a patchwork of cultures and languages into a coherent animal.
But what it is not, and what it has been mostly painted as by he Brexiters, is a cultural threat. France is no less French, Germany no less German, Sweden no less Swedish and England no less English (yes, I'm purposefully avoiding the whole Britian thing) than forty years ago, which is as far back as my experiences allow me to go with confidence. It depends how you define these things, of course, but I don't mind the reduction in overt bellicosity.
By all means, have a critical evaluation of Europe and our role in it, and if that shows it's hopelessly harmful to our national interests, then who'd want to carry on? Saying you want out and then casting about for reasons is just perverse.
posted by Devonian at 2:46 AM on March 21, 2017 [25 favorites]
Which there has not been, if by 'critical' you mean a nuanced evaluation of what the EU has done, good and bad, how it may have been done better and how it could be improved over time. Certainly, that narrative was no part of Brexit - because it would have to include the UK's role in the EU and its engagement and appetite for making the thing work. We never had a department for Europe, nor a minister thereof, and we never reconciled our post-imperalist hangovers with the need to go drinking in a different pub.
Which is OK, up to a point, because show me the European nation that doesn't have unresolved issues going back many lifetimes; expecting any relationship to cure your hang-ups is not in general a recipe for success. Being aware of how a relationship can be mutually beneficial through awareness of those lacunae and a mutual willingness to trade off the hardships of having two sets of personal issues with the benefits of having two sets of resources to deal with them, that's a different matter.
One of my many frustrations with Brexit is that, by all accounts, the UK was both willing and capable of being a very savvy and effective pro-EU operator within the institution. The people on the ground got all this. But successes were not seen as providing political capital back home, where conflict, antagonism and the perfidy of others were required. You can say the EU is undemocratic; why, then, downplay and marginalise the European elections and the role of MEPs, the fundamental elements of European democracy?
The EU certainly has systemic and specific flaws. To the list of those above, I'd add an inability to cohere on foreign policy, defence and key aspects of regulation, and an ability to spend freely on process rather than focus on goals witha willingness to be critical of itself when missing them. Which is rather to be expected of something that relies on turning a patchwork of cultures and languages into a coherent animal.
But what it is not, and what it has been mostly painted as by he Brexiters, is a cultural threat. France is no less French, Germany no less German, Sweden no less Swedish and England no less English (yes, I'm purposefully avoiding the whole Britian thing) than forty years ago, which is as far back as my experiences allow me to go with confidence. It depends how you define these things, of course, but I don't mind the reduction in overt bellicosity.
By all means, have a critical evaluation of Europe and our role in it, and if that shows it's hopelessly harmful to our national interests, then who'd want to carry on? Saying you want out and then casting about for reasons is just perverse.
posted by Devonian at 2:46 AM on March 21, 2017 [25 favorites]
One of my many frustrations with Brexit is that, by all accounts, the UK was both willing and capable of being a very savvy and effective pro-EU operator within the institution. The people on the ground got all this.
From personal experience, I know this to be very true. Whenever you were working in a pan-european setting, the British would be at the front and center of operations, working with the outmost professionalism.
But successes were not seen as providing political capital back home, where conflict, antagonism and the perfidy of others were required. You can say the EU is undemocratic; why, then, downplay and marginalise the European elections and the role of MEPs, the fundamental elements of European democracy?
For all the years of the EU (and before that the EC), it has been far too easy for national politicians to blame the EU for unpopular politics that they themselves had been part of creating. Because the media not only let them, but aided and abetted them. I've never once heard a reporter confront a minister who claimed he was blameless and helpless about some EU regulation that he himself had negotiated into place.
And not only that, I have witnessed close hand how local politicians and organizations willfully misinterpreted EU directives in order to serve their personal interests. Again, with no push-back from any media.
Clearly Boris Johnson is the embodiment not only of the neglect of the media, but of the glee and profiteering of the press who have brought on Brexit. But the same thing happens in most other EU countries.
posted by mumimor at 3:04 AM on March 21, 2017 [7 favorites]
From personal experience, I know this to be very true. Whenever you were working in a pan-european setting, the British would be at the front and center of operations, working with the outmost professionalism.
But successes were not seen as providing political capital back home, where conflict, antagonism and the perfidy of others were required. You can say the EU is undemocratic; why, then, downplay and marginalise the European elections and the role of MEPs, the fundamental elements of European democracy?
For all the years of the EU (and before that the EC), it has been far too easy for national politicians to blame the EU for unpopular politics that they themselves had been part of creating. Because the media not only let them, but aided and abetted them. I've never once heard a reporter confront a minister who claimed he was blameless and helpless about some EU regulation that he himself had negotiated into place.
And not only that, I have witnessed close hand how local politicians and organizations willfully misinterpreted EU directives in order to serve their personal interests. Again, with no push-back from any media.
Clearly Boris Johnson is the embodiment not only of the neglect of the media, but of the glee and profiteering of the press who have brought on Brexit. But the same thing happens in most other EU countries.
posted by mumimor at 3:04 AM on March 21, 2017 [7 favorites]
I am prevented from commenting too freely about this issue given my own precarious immigration status here, but you may be certain that I shall not forget the individual and institutional actors responsible for getting us into this whole needless debacle. The 2016-2017 interval has so far seemed to me to be an extended exercise in the capricious destruction of systems that, while imperfect in many ways, did a decent job of upholding the basic tenets of human dignity, and will not be easily repaired, restored or replaced. On both sides of the Atlantic.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:13 AM on March 21, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:13 AM on March 21, 2017 [9 favorites]
Reminder that we have a good, recent Scottish Reaction to Brexit Thread where you can find answers to all your hot takes.
I had the peculiar experience of going micro-viral on Twitter over the weekend. I posted about being an EU migrant in a Brexiteer UK. I moved here because I fell in love with a boy and fell in love with my new home town of Glasgow too. This feels like home in a way that Copenhagen never did. I feel loved & welcome by my local community. I've built up a career and a business.
And then when I travel for work I see tabloids on the seats next to me. Tabloids that scream lies about migrants like me. People congratulate me on picking up English so well after just a decade in the UK. I hold two university degrees in English and speak six languages. Well-meaning people tell me that nothing's going to happen to me because I'm a 'good migrant'. Immigration laws are not a pick & mix booth.
Worst case scenario: I lose the love of my life, my home, my beloved job, my friends and my community. And for what reason? No one really knows.
ETA. I've dealt with over 700 comments over the weekend lending me well-meaning advice. Trust me, I've looked at this situation closely and it sucks.
posted by kariebookish at 3:36 AM on March 21, 2017 [33 favorites]
I had the peculiar experience of going micro-viral on Twitter over the weekend. I posted about being an EU migrant in a Brexiteer UK. I moved here because I fell in love with a boy and fell in love with my new home town of Glasgow too. This feels like home in a way that Copenhagen never did. I feel loved & welcome by my local community. I've built up a career and a business.
And then when I travel for work I see tabloids on the seats next to me. Tabloids that scream lies about migrants like me. People congratulate me on picking up English so well after just a decade in the UK. I hold two university degrees in English and speak six languages. Well-meaning people tell me that nothing's going to happen to me because I'm a 'good migrant'. Immigration laws are not a pick & mix booth.
Worst case scenario: I lose the love of my life, my home, my beloved job, my friends and my community. And for what reason? No one really knows.
ETA. I've dealt with over 700 comments over the weekend lending me well-meaning advice. Trust me, I've looked at this situation closely and it sucks.
posted by kariebookish at 3:36 AM on March 21, 2017 [33 favorites]
SLDailyMail: Tory fury as historic Brexit Act WON'T be printed for posterity on vellum because the centuries old tradition has been quietly DITCHED. "Mr Liddell-Grainger said of the Article 50 Act: 'It should be written on vellum. Because in a thousand years' time people will ask, 'what did they do in March 2017?'"
posted by effbot at 4:31 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by effbot at 4:31 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
ETA. I've dealt with over 700 comments over the weekend lending me well-meaning advice. Trust me, I've looked at this situation closely and it sucks.
This is almost worse than the actual Brexit bastards. People who insist that there must be some way that things will work out fine for you specifically, because you're not the sort of rabble this whole vote was about, and I guess just world fallacy combined with an utter lack of understanding of immigration law or Tories? Like no, if you gave a shit, the time to speak up was years ago. Before this bullshit referendum, when our rights started getting stripped, when we started being made a scapegoat and political punching bag. But nobody said anything. Now people are oh so concerned, and going to march on Saturday (because yeah, a protest like two days before the actual Brexit date isn't a back-patting pointless sham of performance politics - you couldn't design a protest to achieve less, it's purely about peacocking liberal bona fides). Now people are looking into immigration law, seeing the insane bullshit (health insurance requirement, habitual residency tests that define many people living here as not habitually resident, etc, etc) and insisting that this can't be right, but you know what, it is, and you fucking watched it happen. The time for outrage was then, when this shit was going through parliament. But your concern isn't real. You didn't take us seriously when we told you what was happening. You didn't care. Not until the redtops started screaming about how you're taking your country back.
So no, don't tell me it'll be fine. It won't, becausegood people you didn't do anything, so evil prevailed. Don't tell me to marry my partner, because he doesn't earn enough that it'll help anything at all. Don't suggest I apply for ESA or JSA or housing benefit because I'm utterly ineligible, and don't you fucking dare act surprised at that. Don't ask me if I can't apply for citizenship after well over a decade, my entire adult life, because I can't, and your government's bullshit is why. You were told at the time. You don't remember because you didn't care. Now that you're a laughing stock and pariah in the rest of Europe, you're suddenly concerned. Well fuck you, it's too late now.
posted by Dysk at 5:15 AM on March 21, 2017 [24 favorites]
This is almost worse than the actual Brexit bastards. People who insist that there must be some way that things will work out fine for you specifically, because you're not the sort of rabble this whole vote was about, and I guess just world fallacy combined with an utter lack of understanding of immigration law or Tories? Like no, if you gave a shit, the time to speak up was years ago. Before this bullshit referendum, when our rights started getting stripped, when we started being made a scapegoat and political punching bag. But nobody said anything. Now people are oh so concerned, and going to march on Saturday (because yeah, a protest like two days before the actual Brexit date isn't a back-patting pointless sham of performance politics - you couldn't design a protest to achieve less, it's purely about peacocking liberal bona fides). Now people are looking into immigration law, seeing the insane bullshit (health insurance requirement, habitual residency tests that define many people living here as not habitually resident, etc, etc) and insisting that this can't be right, but you know what, it is, and you fucking watched it happen. The time for outrage was then, when this shit was going through parliament. But your concern isn't real. You didn't take us seriously when we told you what was happening. You didn't care. Not until the redtops started screaming about how you're taking your country back.
So no, don't tell me it'll be fine. It won't, because
posted by Dysk at 5:15 AM on March 21, 2017 [24 favorites]
It wasn't quietly ditched. There was a whole thing about it last year.
The people that make a fuss did so and then we all moved on to using archival paper and no one cared because no one cares.
I really wish I could understand these people.
These people who care about Vellum over Archival Paper.
These people who care about what colour your passport is.
Not even the big things like Brexit or the medium things like Grammar schools, (Because I don't understand them either) the truly tiny irrelevancies which seem to bring such froth and fury. Do they? Do they actually care?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:25 AM on March 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
The people that make a fuss did so and then we all moved on to using archival paper and no one cared because no one cares.
I really wish I could understand these people.
These people who care about Vellum over Archival Paper.
These people who care about what colour your passport is.
Not even the big things like Brexit or the medium things like Grammar schools, (Because I don't understand them either) the truly tiny irrelevancies which seem to bring such froth and fury. Do they? Do they actually care?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:25 AM on March 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
Far-right millionaire: I'll use social media network to back Scottish independence. Like Bannon he wants to burn it all down.
Jim Dowson is a particularily nasty piece of shit whose Patriot News Agency heavily pushed a Pro Trump anti Clinton message to the Americans.
According to Anti-racist organisation Hope Not Hate said: “Dowson has become a major player in social media, using his ‘hub’ in Budapest to spew out hatred right around the world. His proposed intervention in Scotland has nothing to do with independence, but with everything to do with the lust for bigotry and making another of his former places of residence a battleground for hatred.”
posted by adamvasco at 5:31 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Jim Dowson is a particularily nasty piece of shit whose Patriot News Agency heavily pushed a Pro Trump anti Clinton message to the Americans.
According to Anti-racist organisation Hope Not Hate said: “Dowson has become a major player in social media, using his ‘hub’ in Budapest to spew out hatred right around the world. His proposed intervention in Scotland has nothing to do with independence, but with everything to do with the lust for bigotry and making another of his former places of residence a battleground for hatred.”
posted by adamvasco at 5:31 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Do they? Do they actually care?
Nope, they don't give a shit. Countryfile had a bit on fruit pickers and Brexit last Sunday, basically about how disastrous its going to be without seasonal migration.
Brexiteers whined on about the BBC's pro-EU propaganda, of course, but the genuine suggestion made by many of them was that students could do it instead. Nevermind that the student holidays are about two months long at most and picking season is much longer, or the realities of having to compete with other job markets with much better prospects, or the absolutely dismal rate of pay (and I know for a personal fact that there are plenty of farms who don't pay NMW, let alone living wage). Nah, students will do it because that's what used to happen in the old days. Allegedly. [I did two years of fruit picking and packing. It's absolute shit work and the idea that students will opt for it is laughable.]
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:05 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nope, they don't give a shit. Countryfile had a bit on fruit pickers and Brexit last Sunday, basically about how disastrous its going to be without seasonal migration.
Brexiteers whined on about the BBC's pro-EU propaganda, of course, but the genuine suggestion made by many of them was that students could do it instead. Nevermind that the student holidays are about two months long at most and picking season is much longer, or the realities of having to compete with other job markets with much better prospects, or the absolutely dismal rate of pay (and I know for a personal fact that there are plenty of farms who don't pay NMW, let alone living wage). Nah, students will do it because that's what used to happen in the old days. Allegedly. [I did two years of fruit picking and packing. It's absolute shit work and the idea that students will opt for it is laughable.]
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:05 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Anecdata to Dowson: friend of friend used to live next to him and is having trouble understanding what's going on as Dowson was always "an impoverished [redacted] (who) became a 'minister' online, joined Britain First and suddenly wealthy - something stinks".
Well then.
posted by kariebookish at 6:26 AM on March 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well then.
posted by kariebookish at 6:26 AM on March 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Nah, students will do it because that's what used to happen in the old days.
Pre-EU, my mother did indeed pick fruit in the university holidays. She and her friend were the only students in the workforce. Every single other person was working while claiming unemployment. The entirety of the county's farms basically shut down on a Thursday (I think it was a Thursday) so the seasonal agricultural workforce could sign on. As far as I can tell this how it was for the whole of the 60s and into the 70s.
Now, whether you personally think this is a better or worse situation than the current one is rather moot, as I will bet you a tenner there's a near-complete overlap between "pro-Brexit" and "believes benefit cheats should be strung up from the nearest lamppost".
posted by Vortisaur at 7:33 AM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Pre-EU, my mother did indeed pick fruit in the university holidays. She and her friend were the only students in the workforce. Every single other person was working while claiming unemployment. The entirety of the county's farms basically shut down on a Thursday (I think it was a Thursday) so the seasonal agricultural workforce could sign on. As far as I can tell this how it was for the whole of the 60s and into the 70s.
Now, whether you personally think this is a better or worse situation than the current one is rather moot, as I will bet you a tenner there's a near-complete overlap between "pro-Brexit" and "believes benefit cheats should be strung up from the nearest lamppost".
posted by Vortisaur at 7:33 AM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
People who insist that there must be some way that things will work out fine for you specifically, because you're not the sort of rabble this whole vote was about, and I guess just world fallacy combined with an utter lack of understanding of immigration law or Tories?
This is something I just don't understand. My parents, who are heading into their 80s, have been staunch pro-EU liberals (small l always, big L sometimes) for their whole lives and quite fervent anti-Tories, are now Brexiters. Before the referendum, I was astonished to learn this and set about trying to find out why. Among the many things I brought up was the situation of my EU-but-not-UK citizien UK resident friends, several of whom fit the template of having lived here most of their lives, married, had children, made careers, etc - in truth, making a better fist of their time on this sceptred isle than I.
And I got that exact response - oh, don't worry, they'll be looked after, nobody wants to see them suffer.
I pointed out that recent changes in immigration law - which, of course, my parents didn't know about, because why would you if you weren't affected? - made it clear that the Tories were not only capable of throwing people out in almost exactly those circumstances, they were doing this in significant numbers for non-EU residents and for really bad reasons. The only difference was that EU citizenship conferred right of residence: that gone, why wouldn't the Tories boot out everyone they could? I provided evidence both personal and online (both of which, sadly, I have far too much).
And my parents closed down. As they did with everything i came up with - it caused one of the worst family rows in my memory, and now we don't talk politics.
The only thing I can think of that's done this is that they read the Sun (ostensibly for the racing and the telly) and the constant exposure of Farage et al on the TV; they don't have much news consumption beyond that. But the cult programming has been precise - "Europe has too much control", and anything against that is practically traitorous to contemplate. In other respects, they're still the same liberal, socially-concerned and lovable-if-waspish couple I've always known (my father still does a lot of community stuff, supporting foodbanks and doing quirky volunteer things that get in the local rag), but in this regard - there's no reaching them.
I am hugely saddened by this.
I have added it to my accounts in the 'pointless misery caused by the evil fuckers' ledger, and I collect the interest on it when I'm tempted to despair, by way of firing up the anger and feeding on the flames.
posted by Devonian at 8:01 AM on March 21, 2017 [25 favorites]
This is something I just don't understand. My parents, who are heading into their 80s, have been staunch pro-EU liberals (small l always, big L sometimes) for their whole lives and quite fervent anti-Tories, are now Brexiters. Before the referendum, I was astonished to learn this and set about trying to find out why. Among the many things I brought up was the situation of my EU-but-not-UK citizien UK resident friends, several of whom fit the template of having lived here most of their lives, married, had children, made careers, etc - in truth, making a better fist of their time on this sceptred isle than I.
And I got that exact response - oh, don't worry, they'll be looked after, nobody wants to see them suffer.
I pointed out that recent changes in immigration law - which, of course, my parents didn't know about, because why would you if you weren't affected? - made it clear that the Tories were not only capable of throwing people out in almost exactly those circumstances, they were doing this in significant numbers for non-EU residents and for really bad reasons. The only difference was that EU citizenship conferred right of residence: that gone, why wouldn't the Tories boot out everyone they could? I provided evidence both personal and online (both of which, sadly, I have far too much).
And my parents closed down. As they did with everything i came up with - it caused one of the worst family rows in my memory, and now we don't talk politics.
The only thing I can think of that's done this is that they read the Sun (ostensibly for the racing and the telly) and the constant exposure of Farage et al on the TV; they don't have much news consumption beyond that. But the cult programming has been precise - "Europe has too much control", and anything against that is practically traitorous to contemplate. In other respects, they're still the same liberal, socially-concerned and lovable-if-waspish couple I've always known (my father still does a lot of community stuff, supporting foodbanks and doing quirky volunteer things that get in the local rag), but in this regard - there's no reaching them.
I am hugely saddened by this.
I have added it to my accounts in the 'pointless misery caused by the evil fuckers' ledger, and I collect the interest on it when I'm tempted to despair, by way of firing up the anger and feeding on the flames.
posted by Devonian at 8:01 AM on March 21, 2017 [25 favorites]
My impression is that 70s unemployment benefit was much, much easier to get than it is today; it was effectively a guaranteed basic income in some ways.
(Years ago I remember reading the tale of a bunch of Japanese rock climbers visiting the UK in the late 70s & being very jealous of the way the British climbers could simply sign on & then spend their time rock climbing. I don’t think that would be possible today.)
posted by pharm at 8:05 AM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
(Years ago I remember reading the tale of a bunch of Japanese rock climbers visiting the UK in the late 70s & being very jealous of the way the British climbers could simply sign on & then spend their time rock climbing. I don’t think that would be possible today.)
posted by pharm at 8:05 AM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Can someone point to an article that summarizes the money trail behind Brexit? I assume Murdoch was spreading all the media lies, but was Putin as involved as he seems to be in the US election?
posted by benzenedream at 8:08 AM on March 21, 2017
posted by benzenedream at 8:08 AM on March 21, 2017
It’s nothing more than the faintest whiff of a potential smoking gun but I did note in passing that Dominic Cummings’ (he of Vote Leave fame) CV states that he spent the years immediately after graduating in Russia before coming back to the UK & eventually becoming Gove’s spad. Make of that what you will!
posted by pharm at 8:11 AM on March 21, 2017
posted by pharm at 8:11 AM on March 21, 2017
was Putin as involved as he seems to be in the US election?
Good question! But who would investigate that?
posted by mumimor at 8:11 AM on March 21, 2017
Good question! But who would investigate that?
posted by mumimor at 8:11 AM on March 21, 2017
Adam Schiff, the top Democrat on the committee, suggested one of the reasons Vladimir Putin's Russia had wanted to encourage Mr Trump's candidacy was because the billionaire was in favour of Brexit.
Mr Schiff said: "Would they like to encourage candidates in favour of Brexit? Would they like to see more Brexits?"
Mr Comey replied: "Yes."
posted by vacapinta at 8:14 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Mr Schiff said: "Would they like to encourage candidates in favour of Brexit? Would they like to see more Brexits?"
Mr Comey replied: "Yes."
posted by vacapinta at 8:14 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
And here are Dowson and pals in St Petersburg.
Where do they get their money from? I'm at a loss. But if anyone wants to start up the Putin Stooge Awards, I'll be happy to subscribe to your newsletter. (St Ooge is, of course, the Russian patron saint of puppetry. [fake])
posted by Devonian at 8:34 AM on March 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Where do they get their money from? I'm at a loss. But if anyone wants to start up the Putin Stooge Awards, I'll be happy to subscribe to your newsletter. (St Ooge is, of course, the Russian patron saint of puppetry. [fake])
posted by Devonian at 8:34 AM on March 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
there's no reaching them / I am hugely saddened by this.
I feel your pain. And at the same time, I understand their intransigence. My own pro-Remain conviction is deeply held and totally unshakeable. There's no reasoning me out of it.
I think this whole campaign has been fought on purely emotional battle lines. Unfortunately, only Team Leave really understood this and mobilised its forces accordingly. Team Remain's strategy and tactics were so ineffective that they squandered what could have been an easy win.
Now, I'm afraid, nobody in Britain stands to win anything much. I have no confidence that the negotiations will do anything other than limit the damage my country is determined to do to itself, but I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on this point.
posted by ZipRibbons at 8:46 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I feel your pain. And at the same time, I understand their intransigence. My own pro-Remain conviction is deeply held and totally unshakeable. There's no reasoning me out of it.
I think this whole campaign has been fought on purely emotional battle lines. Unfortunately, only Team Leave really understood this and mobilised its forces accordingly. Team Remain's strategy and tactics were so ineffective that they squandered what could have been an easy win.
Now, I'm afraid, nobody in Britain stands to win anything much. I have no confidence that the negotiations will do anything other than limit the damage my country is determined to do to itself, but I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on this point.
posted by ZipRibbons at 8:46 AM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Per new polls, there seems to be little appetite for - and much wariness about - hard Brexit. The article notes, I believe correctly, that in the absence of any effective opposition in England, May will ignore public opinion in favour of the same Tory electoral calculus that led to Cameron calling the referendum in the first place. Perhaps she didn't notice how that ended for him.
posted by Devonian at 10:18 AM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 10:18 AM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Perhaps she didn't notice how that ended for him.
Or she just doesn't care: "She says she doesn’t read much history and tries not to picture how things will be in advance. She doesn’t think about her legacy. When I raise the notion of empathy, she dismisses it as being “a very ‘today’ word” (she prefers understanding). She seems willfully unimaginative, kicking every question into an area of generality." (via twitter)
posted by effbot at 10:55 AM on March 21, 2017 [5 favorites]
Or she just doesn't care: "She says she doesn’t read much history and tries not to picture how things will be in advance. She doesn’t think about her legacy. When I raise the notion of empathy, she dismisses it as being “a very ‘today’ word” (she prefers understanding). She seems willfully unimaginative, kicking every question into an area of generality." (via twitter)
posted by effbot at 10:55 AM on March 21, 2017 [5 favorites]
And so it begins: Goldman Sachs to move hundreds of staff out of London due to Brexit
posted by mumimor at 12:51 PM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 12:51 PM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
SLTelegraphTweet: BREAKING Cabinet Office says tonight that ministers were "exploring options to preserve the use of vellum". Priorities, priorities.
posted by effbot at 1:26 PM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by effbot at 1:26 PM on March 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
dmh: "but the UK can exercise influence in many other ways as well, i.e. military, diplomatic, financial, and cultural, which affords all sorts of divide-and-conquer tactics, both within and without the EU (which Juncker has acknowledged)"
This is an interesting perspective that I had not fully considered. Since Article 50 has never been triggered, we won't know for sure until negotiations start, but I can't help but wonder if the structure of the negotiations might not actually favor divide-and-conquer tactics. The fact that the end agreement needs to be with the EU bloc as a whole may limit some of the ways that different EU countries can be pitted against one another (e.g.: I don't believe the UK could have a tariff scheme that treated French automakers differently than German automakers, but maybe they could do something more indirect like favor winemakers over automakers generally). Also, with the automatic two-year countdown that can only be extended by unanimous agreement among all the countries, this might also prove problematic if too many divisions are sown among the EU members (i.e.: to the point where insufficient consensus can be found and the clock simply runs down). Finally, we come to the question of competence. In order to exploit these divisions (particularly under the structure of an umbrella, EU-wide agreement), I am assuming that you would need at least fairly competent trade specialists. Given that neither the Cabinet Office nor the DExEu know even how many negotiators they have on staff, I wonder exactly how prepared and skilled the UK delegation will be.
posted by mhum at 2:07 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is an interesting perspective that I had not fully considered. Since Article 50 has never been triggered, we won't know for sure until negotiations start, but I can't help but wonder if the structure of the negotiations might not actually favor divide-and-conquer tactics. The fact that the end agreement needs to be with the EU bloc as a whole may limit some of the ways that different EU countries can be pitted against one another (e.g.: I don't believe the UK could have a tariff scheme that treated French automakers differently than German automakers, but maybe they could do something more indirect like favor winemakers over automakers generally). Also, with the automatic two-year countdown that can only be extended by unanimous agreement among all the countries, this might also prove problematic if too many divisions are sown among the EU members (i.e.: to the point where insufficient consensus can be found and the clock simply runs down). Finally, we come to the question of competence. In order to exploit these divisions (particularly under the structure of an umbrella, EU-wide agreement), I am assuming that you would need at least fairly competent trade specialists. Given that neither the Cabinet Office nor the DExEu know even how many negotiators they have on staff, I wonder exactly how prepared and skilled the UK delegation will be.
posted by mhum at 2:07 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
> "Cabinet Office says tonight that ministers were 'exploring options to preserve the use of vellum.'"
Fuck everything.
posted by kyrademon at 4:07 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Fuck everything.
posted by kyrademon at 4:07 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
When I saw all the Union Jacks with people for Brexit, I thought: y'all are going to lose the blue, you realize that, right?
I hope the media is better there than it is here and people can properly assess blame for the coming pain. Here it'll be: Dems say 25 million lost healthcare because of Ryan bill. GOP claims it's Obama's fault. Opinions differ.
On the other hand, it is the land of rags like the S*n. Still, I hope!
posted by persona au gratin at 4:29 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I hope the media is better there than it is here and people can properly assess blame for the coming pain. Here it'll be: Dems say 25 million lost healthcare because of Ryan bill. GOP claims it's Obama's fault. Opinions differ.
On the other hand, it is the land of rags like the S*n. Still, I hope!
posted by persona au gratin at 4:29 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
amazed that many people in the UK are willingly giving up their right to live and work in 27 other nations
Ah. I'm distressed that it's happening, and having made use of that right myself was my biggest reason for voting Remain - but I can offer one explanation for the ease with which people are making that choice.
Here's how mainstream language teaching has looked, in England at least, for much of the last few decades:
Beginning on entry to secondary school, we study some French, maybe German, *maybe* Spanish or Italian. Languages have typically been compulsory for 11-14-year-olds, with perhaps as much as 3 hours' tuition per language per week. At 14 we choose a reasonable range of subjects to continue studying, which may well include (may even be required to include) a modern foreign language. But at 16, if we stay on at school, we specialise down to three or four subjects; at this point, people who want to study maths and sciences generally have no choice but to drop languages, and lots of people who prefer the humanities choose to do so. At university, it's one degree subject, maybe two, *maybe* with access to a language course on the side; on the whole, if you're studying a language at an advanced level post-18 it's because you are Studying Languages. I found it eye-opening (and quite mortifying) to realise that elsewhere in Europe, facility with languages is part and parcel of being an educated person, not a rare talent seen only in the few.
So an awful lot of adults in the UK have no language skills beyond dimly remembered school French. And we know full well that "Excusez-moi, Monsieur, où est la bibliothèque, s'il vous plaît?" is not really going to cut it in the world of employment. Which means it's very understandable if people think, well, those 27 other nations - the vast majority don't actually seem very accessible as live-work destinations, because who would employ someone who can't speak the language?
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 5:27 PM on March 21, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ah. I'm distressed that it's happening, and having made use of that right myself was my biggest reason for voting Remain - but I can offer one explanation for the ease with which people are making that choice.
Here's how mainstream language teaching has looked, in England at least, for much of the last few decades:
Beginning on entry to secondary school, we study some French, maybe German, *maybe* Spanish or Italian. Languages have typically been compulsory for 11-14-year-olds, with perhaps as much as 3 hours' tuition per language per week. At 14 we choose a reasonable range of subjects to continue studying, which may well include (may even be required to include) a modern foreign language. But at 16, if we stay on at school, we specialise down to three or four subjects; at this point, people who want to study maths and sciences generally have no choice but to drop languages, and lots of people who prefer the humanities choose to do so. At university, it's one degree subject, maybe two, *maybe* with access to a language course on the side; on the whole, if you're studying a language at an advanced level post-18 it's because you are Studying Languages. I found it eye-opening (and quite mortifying) to realise that elsewhere in Europe, facility with languages is part and parcel of being an educated person, not a rare talent seen only in the few.
So an awful lot of adults in the UK have no language skills beyond dimly remembered school French. And we know full well that "Excusez-moi, Monsieur, où est la bibliothèque, s'il vous plaît?" is not really going to cut it in the world of employment. Which means it's very understandable if people think, well, those 27 other nations - the vast majority don't actually seem very accessible as live-work destinations, because who would employ someone who can't speak the language?
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 5:27 PM on March 21, 2017 [5 favorites]
I can't help but wonder if the structure of the negotiations might not actually favor divide-and-conquer tactics. The fact that the end agreement needs to be with the EU bloc as a whole may limit some of the ways that different EU countries can be pitted against one another
To be clear, and in recognition of your earlier points, I agree that the UK cannot "win" a trade war with the EU. Even so, punitive terms for the UK will also directly impact vital member states: 10% of UK exports go to Germany, while France is the number 1 exporter to the UK (by a large margin) and Germany is the 3rd largest exporter to the UK. It's unclear to me how the EU can safeguard the common good against the interests of the UK, Germany and France, given that virtually all of the EU executive power ultimately devolves to the member states and public support for the European project is uneven.
posted by dmh at 5:29 PM on March 21, 2017
To be clear, and in recognition of your earlier points, I agree that the UK cannot "win" a trade war with the EU. Even so, punitive terms for the UK will also directly impact vital member states: 10% of UK exports go to Germany, while France is the number 1 exporter to the UK (by a large margin) and Germany is the 3rd largest exporter to the UK. It's unclear to me how the EU can safeguard the common good against the interests of the UK, Germany and France, given that virtually all of the EU executive power ultimately devolves to the member states and public support for the European project is uneven.
posted by dmh at 5:29 PM on March 21, 2017
It's not like there won't be any exports to the UK or imports from the UK, it's that there will be barriers. For some industries, such as the auto industry, that will be a huge problem. But at the end of the day, the solutions to that problem will harm the UK far more than it will harm any country in the EU. For other industries such as food and drink, Asian markets are growing fast, and I expect the EU take will be that the UK must pay market prices or find their products somewhere else. However this is solved, the consumers will bear the brunt, in the form of higher prices. Look at this year's vegetable crisis, which has nothing to do with Brexit. Not a problem for the rich, but for the middle class and down, this will be felt.
Add to that the decrease in tax revenue from EU-citizens and bankers who are forced to move, and obviously the shortage of NHS personnel which has already begun, I can't really see what the Brexit plan is.
posted by mumimor at 5:43 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Add to that the decrease in tax revenue from EU-citizens and bankers who are forced to move, and obviously the shortage of NHS personnel which has already begun, I can't really see what the Brexit plan is.
posted by mumimor at 5:43 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think the Brexit plan is that the Tories do quite well electorally when there is obvious pain and suffering around, because those in suffering are too broken in spirit to engage politically, and those in the precariat are seduced by the idea of self-discipline (i.e. reducing the state safety net) solving all problems. And obviously, even that level of reflection and assessment of motives is beyond them. It's parochialism all the way.
For what it's worth, I've had the heartbreaking arguments with parents that Devonian's had, with exactly the same inconsistency with how I was brought up. And it appears to come from a dim awareness that the future is not good, and happily accepting the scapegoat that has been made for them over the past 40 years.
I think that the issue with the vellum is incredibly telling. And it'll probably change my accelerationist anarchist vegan colleague against the process, which will make me feel better.
posted by ambrosen at 7:12 PM on March 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
For what it's worth, I've had the heartbreaking arguments with parents that Devonian's had, with exactly the same inconsistency with how I was brought up. And it appears to come from a dim awareness that the future is not good, and happily accepting the scapegoat that has been made for them over the past 40 years.
I think that the issue with the vellum is incredibly telling. And it'll probably change my accelerationist anarchist vegan colleague against the process, which will make me feel better.
posted by ambrosen at 7:12 PM on March 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think putting laws on vellum is the only issue that both Brexiters and I would support.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:38 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 7:38 PM on March 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Which means it's very understandable if people think, well, those 27 other nations - the vast majority don't actually seem very accessible as live-work destinations, because who would employ someone who can't speak the language?
As it turns out, lots of people and companies do exactly that (outside of the UK)!
posted by Dysk at 8:03 PM on March 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
As it turns out, lots of people and companies do exactly that (outside of the UK)!
posted by Dysk at 8:03 PM on March 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
Thomas Piketty's blog today: What would a democratic Euro Zone Assembly look like? Draft treaty on the democratization of the governance of the euro area.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:00 AM on March 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:00 AM on March 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
The "Brits cannot speak any other languages!" argument doesn't take into account that many EU-based corporations use English as their internal language of choice. I used to teach Business English in Copenhagen. We are talking everything from energy companies, pharmaceutical companies and banks to advertising agencies, IT companies and architectural practices. And if you prefer to pull pints, Irish and Scottish pubs are everywhere.
This reluctance to travel beyond a beach holiday is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
posted by kariebookish at 3:00 AM on March 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
This reluctance to travel beyond a beach holiday is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.
posted by kariebookish at 3:00 AM on March 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
UK-based airlines told to move to Europe after Brexit or lose major routes
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:01 AM on March 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:01 AM on March 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
Which means it's very understandable if people think, well, those 27 other nations - the vast majority don't actually seem very accessible as live-work destinations, because who would employ someone who can't speak the language?
Just off the top of my head, I know people who've DJ'd/ holiday repped/bar worked, ski school instructors, IT people who've worked in Amsterdam and Spain, teachers in France, social media consultants in Germany. These are people from the same small shitty rural county I'm originally from, none of who had more than a GCSE in languages when they went.
I think the answer is far more to do with the belief of some that the British are expats, never immigrants, as stated in that Guardian video linked upthread. They don't believe that any European nation isnt actually going to welcome British people at the same time we're telling their immigrants to fuck off.
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:29 AM on March 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
Just off the top of my head, I know people who've DJ'd/ holiday repped/bar worked, ski school instructors, IT people who've worked in Amsterdam and Spain, teachers in France, social media consultants in Germany. These are people from the same small shitty rural county I'm originally from, none of who had more than a GCSE in languages when they went.
I think the answer is far more to do with the belief of some that the British are expats, never immigrants, as stated in that Guardian video linked upthread. They don't believe that any European nation isnt actually going to welcome British people at the same time we're telling their immigrants to fuck off.
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:29 AM on March 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
The "Brits cannot speak any other languages!" argument doesn't take into account that many EU-based corporations use English as their internal language of choice.
This to me is one of the reasons the Brits are so isolated. Most educated people on the Continent can speak some English (as well as other languages). The English cannot speak any other language. This creates a one-way mirror where the Continent can overhear the political conversation in Westminster and read newspapers and even listen to BBC radio. But Brits have no idea what is going on in the continent because they have to have it translated for them. This translator often turns out to be the Guardian or the Daily Mail which translates and also tells them what to think about it.
Add to this the fact that it is more common in Europe for educated people to speak multiple languages and you have a Europe that is more culturally united among itself. England remains a monoculture.
This also has economic consequences. If Europeans speak English then English-speaking becomes less of a marketable talent. The German bank who needs to communicate with American clients is just as likely to find a German english-speaker than an English person to fill the role. This makes it smoother for services to move out of London and into Europe. And thus, is paradoxically a drawback to English being the common language.
posted by vacapinta at 4:15 AM on March 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
This to me is one of the reasons the Brits are so isolated. Most educated people on the Continent can speak some English (as well as other languages). The English cannot speak any other language. This creates a one-way mirror where the Continent can overhear the political conversation in Westminster and read newspapers and even listen to BBC radio. But Brits have no idea what is going on in the continent because they have to have it translated for them. This translator often turns out to be the Guardian or the Daily Mail which translates and also tells them what to think about it.
Add to this the fact that it is more common in Europe for educated people to speak multiple languages and you have a Europe that is more culturally united among itself. England remains a monoculture.
This also has economic consequences. If Europeans speak English then English-speaking becomes less of a marketable talent. The German bank who needs to communicate with American clients is just as likely to find a German english-speaker than an English person to fill the role. This makes it smoother for services to move out of London and into Europe. And thus, is paradoxically a drawback to English being the common language.
posted by vacapinta at 4:15 AM on March 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
This translator often turns out to be the Guardian or the Daily Mail which translates and also tells them what to think about it.
This isn't strictly accurate. The UK press is indeed in the business of telling people what to think about the EU, but it's not really in the business of translating (or reporting) any actual goings-on. Far easier to just invent something and declare that "you couldn't make it up!!"
posted by Dysk at 5:57 AM on March 22, 2017
This isn't strictly accurate. The UK press is indeed in the business of telling people what to think about the EU, but it's not really in the business of translating (or reporting) any actual goings-on. Far easier to just invent something and declare that "you couldn't make it up!!"
posted by Dysk at 5:57 AM on March 22, 2017
The English cannot speak any other language.
This — bizarrely — is often worn as a badge of pride.
Somehow the idea that "I'm not going to even try to communicate with you unless you do it on my terms" feels like the mark of a strong, confident person.
It makes me think of the sad British holidaymaker I saw on a documentary once. They filmed him in his hotel room as he phoned reception to ask for an iron and ironing board.
All he wanted to do was get his shirt ironed, but somehow it didn't occur to him to simply take his crumpled laundry downstairs and show them what his problem was. No language necessary! Just point at the shirt and mime.
Instead — unable to conceive of any alternative method of communication — he stayed in his room, speaking ever slower and louder into the phone:
posted by ZipRibbons at 9:24 AM on March 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
This — bizarrely — is often worn as a badge of pride.
Somehow the idea that "I'm not going to even try to communicate with you unless you do it on my terms" feels like the mark of a strong, confident person.
It makes me think of the sad British holidaymaker I saw on a documentary once. They filmed him in his hotel room as he phoned reception to ask for an iron and ironing board.
All he wanted to do was get his shirt ironed, but somehow it didn't occur to him to simply take his crumpled laundry downstairs and show them what his problem was. No language necessary! Just point at the shirt and mime.
Instead — unable to conceive of any alternative method of communication — he stayed in his room, speaking ever slower and louder into the phone:
"I need an ironing board!"Fade to black.
"No, ironing!"
"Ironing! Board!"
"NO! Iron! — Ironing! Ironing board!"
<Exasperated sigh>
"I! ON! ING!"
"I-ON-ING!"
...
posted by ZipRibbons at 9:24 AM on March 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ah, the number of times I have mimed ironing in hotel reception areas. Ironing as a word does strike me as having fairly odd inflection for an English word, and it seems to be a word that is much less rarely understood than the norm in hotels across Europe, in my experience.
(It wasn't me in that documentary I somehow feel obliged to say.)
posted by biffa at 4:34 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
(It wasn't me in that documentary I somehow feel obliged to say.)
posted by biffa at 4:34 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Tintin and the Brexit Plan.
It turns out that this image's origins are as a poster hanging in the European Council’s Brexit task force meeting room.
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:43 AM on March 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
It turns out that this image's origins are as a poster hanging in the European Council’s Brexit task force meeting room.
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:43 AM on March 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
That article doesn't say the poster on the EC wall was the origin, just that there was an example of it there.
posted by biffa at 7:55 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 7:55 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes, I jumped the gun a bit on that image attribution - the EC's poster seems to originate with this tweet back in late January as far as I can determine with Google. Nonetheless, Belgium's most popular hero does rather sum up the mood in Brussels.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:58 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:58 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
The governing board of Lloyd's of London, the world's largest insurance market, is to approve the establishment of a new base in Europe on the same day that Theresa May triggers the Brexit process.
posted by adamvasco at 11:05 AM on March 24, 2017
posted by adamvasco at 11:05 AM on March 24, 2017
Brexit: are you angry yet? [Long, comprehensive, compelling, and depressing as hell.]
posted by rory at 7:40 AM on March 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by rory at 7:40 AM on March 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
Not content with having tee'd up IndyRef2 for Scotland, the Conservative government - officially the Conservative and Unionist Party - have signalled they'd be fine with a Northern Irish one, too. As they've shown no interest in paying for the EU-financed Good Friday Agreement in a post-Brexit scenario, this is hardly surprising...
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:55 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:55 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Scottish Parliament just voted to hold another independence referendum.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:53 AM on March 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:53 AM on March 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
And during that, the Scottish Labour Party MSPs voted against allowing EU nationals to vote in Indyref2 - international socialism at its finest, comrades! (It didn't matter, because Scottish Labour has the influence of an empty tin of Irn Bru - that vote passed as well, so yay.)
posted by Devonian at 10:42 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Devonian at 10:42 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Brexit: are you angry yet?
Of course I bloody well am! What a stupid question! Thankfully, however, although my MP was brought back to the party line (sex/consent scandal as front page splash of The Sun), it's pretty clear that he did not get into politics to make a giant mess of the country. So I interact with him on Twitter very politely, but with the intention of making him feel pretty stupid. I can't imagine him standing down, and he's about 30 years old, but I will do my bit to make him less zealous in his Toryism.
posted by ambrosen at 11:34 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Of course I bloody well am! What a stupid question! Thankfully, however, although my MP was brought back to the party line (sex/consent scandal as front page splash of The Sun), it's pretty clear that he did not get into politics to make a giant mess of the country. So I interact with him on Twitter very politely, but with the intention of making him feel pretty stupid. I can't imagine him standing down, and he's about 30 years old, but I will do my bit to make him less zealous in his Toryism.
posted by ambrosen at 11:34 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Tory talk of union hides soft underbelly of English nationalism, The Irish Times
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:36 PM on March 28, 2017
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:36 PM on March 28, 2017
Today's the day.
Someone should probably do a new post with the best links from today, but in the meantime, here's YouGov on what the brits would like to reintroduce, now that those funhating foreigners no longer have a say: The death penalty, dark blue passports, imperial units, corporal punishment, and incandescent light bulbs all get more than ~20% support (30% from brexiters). Welcome to the early sixties.
posted by effbot at 2:49 AM on March 29, 2017 [5 favorites]
Someone should probably do a new post with the best links from today, but in the meantime, here's YouGov on what the brits would like to reintroduce, now that those funhating foreigners no longer have a say: The death penalty, dark blue passports, imperial units, corporal punishment, and incandescent light bulbs all get more than ~20% support (30% from brexiters). Welcome to the early sixties.
posted by effbot at 2:49 AM on March 29, 2017 [5 favorites]
(I also see people saying that the deep coal mines and cotton mills should reopen and provide proper british jobs, so seems we're talking pre-automation and early 20th century, or even earlier, not just 50 years ago.)
posted by effbot at 4:18 AM on March 29, 2017
posted by effbot at 4:18 AM on March 29, 2017
here's YouGov on what the brits would like to reintroduce, now that those funhating foreigners no longer have a say: The death penalty,
The death penalty is the highest item on the list at only 36%. That's most likely the lowest level of support it has ever received. It was 45% a few years ago, and 51% a few years before that.
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:48 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
The death penalty is the highest item on the list at only 36%. That's most likely the lowest level of support it has ever received. It was 45% a few years ago, and 51% a few years before that.
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:48 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
My country just shot itself in the head for no reason.
The Brexit patriots will, as soon as I get my papers in, have created a German citizen out of a British national.
Schoolkids will be reciting this date.
posted by runincircles at 5:31 AM on March 29, 2017 [7 favorites]
The Brexit patriots will, as soon as I get my papers in, have created a German citizen out of a British national.
Schoolkids will be reciting this date.
posted by runincircles at 5:31 AM on March 29, 2017 [7 favorites]
It should be interesting to watch developments from here. There are grown-ups in the room and they are not on the British side of the negotiating table.
The Article 50 notice contains the text:
"We propose a bold and ambitious Free Trade Agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union. This should be of greater scope and ambition than any such agreement before it so that it covers sectors crucial to our linked economies such as financial services and network industries."
But the EU has already said that it "opposes any agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom that would contain piecemeal or sectorial provisions, including with respect to financial services."
You can't take the UK back 50 or 100 years. People who believe that don't seem to really have a grasp of how global and inter-linked everything has become. It is rare to find anything in your house that was entirely made in one place. And this relies on a common set of regulations. Neither the Trump people or the Brexit people understand that much of this network of trade, of international law took decades to build and is not easily unraveled.
I predict the history books will in the future write this period as follows:
"With the growing internationalization and trade, along with greater movement of people, a growing expansion of human rights, inevitably there was a backlash among people who saw the world transforming quickly and were at the same time being asked to decide on global, complex issues beyond their understanding. In the 2010s this took the form of the election of a regressive president in the United States and, in Britain, of the ill-fated, bungled attempt to sever itself from the European Union. As we will see in the next chapter, however, internationalization continued with only a few, poor and war-ravaged countries left behind, and the world was able to move on and begin to finally address the urgent global issues of climate change and economic distribution."
posted by vacapinta at 5:51 AM on March 29, 2017 [7 favorites]
The Article 50 notice contains the text:
"We propose a bold and ambitious Free Trade Agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union. This should be of greater scope and ambition than any such agreement before it so that it covers sectors crucial to our linked economies such as financial services and network industries."
But the EU has already said that it "opposes any agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom that would contain piecemeal or sectorial provisions, including with respect to financial services."
You can't take the UK back 50 or 100 years. People who believe that don't seem to really have a grasp of how global and inter-linked everything has become. It is rare to find anything in your house that was entirely made in one place. And this relies on a common set of regulations. Neither the Trump people or the Brexit people understand that much of this network of trade, of international law took decades to build and is not easily unraveled.
I predict the history books will in the future write this period as follows:
"With the growing internationalization and trade, along with greater movement of people, a growing expansion of human rights, inevitably there was a backlash among people who saw the world transforming quickly and were at the same time being asked to decide on global, complex issues beyond their understanding. In the 2010s this took the form of the election of a regressive president in the United States and, in Britain, of the ill-fated, bungled attempt to sever itself from the European Union. As we will see in the next chapter, however, internationalization continued with only a few, poor and war-ravaged countries left behind, and the world was able to move on and begin to finally address the urgent global issues of climate change and economic distribution."
posted by vacapinta at 5:51 AM on March 29, 2017 [7 favorites]
The Article 50 Way to Leave Your Lover
The problem is all inside your head
She said to me
The answer is easy if you
Think jingoistically
I'd like to help you in your
Struggle still to see
Why you need fifty ways
To leave your lover
You just slip out the back, Jack
Without a new plan, Stan
Just need to destroy, Roy
To get yourself free
Paint lies on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Make no guarantees, Lee
And nurses will flee
She said it grieves me so
To see you in such pain
I'll pretend there's something I can do
To make you smile again
I said I very much doubt that
And would you please explain
Article 50 ways
She said why don't we all
Start sleeping rough each night
Until one distant morning
You'll begin to see the light
Then she ignored me
And I realized I had no rights
There must be fifty ways
To leave your senses
posted by rory at 6:25 AM on March 29, 2017 [9 favorites]
The problem is all inside your head
She said to me
The answer is easy if you
Think jingoistically
I'd like to help you in your
Struggle still to see
Why you need fifty ways
To leave your lover
You just slip out the back, Jack
Without a new plan, Stan
Just need to destroy, Roy
To get yourself free
Paint lies on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Make no guarantees, Lee
And nurses will flee
She said it grieves me so
To see you in such pain
I'll pretend there's something I can do
To make you smile again
I said I very much doubt that
And would you please explain
Article 50 ways
She said why don't we all
Start sleeping rough each night
Until one distant morning
You'll begin to see the light
Then she ignored me
And I realized I had no rights
There must be fifty ways
To leave your senses
posted by rory at 6:25 AM on March 29, 2017 [9 favorites]
My country just shot itself in the head
This is no time for your British understatement.
posted by Segundus at 7:52 AM on March 29, 2017 [8 favorites]
This is no time for your British understatement.
posted by Segundus at 7:52 AM on March 29, 2017 [8 favorites]
vacapinta, true that the grown-ups in the room are on the other side of the table from the representatives of the UK, but I'd still say that they'll do a better job of protecting British interests than the UK representatives will. Not out of any generosity, but simply because they don't want to unnecessarily impoverish a trade partner. Whereas the UK representatives are clearly unconcerned about unnecessarily impoverishing the UK, and are mainly in the business of pouting, strutting and preening.
posted by ambrosen at 8:44 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 8:44 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Someone should probably do a new post with the best links from today,
I honestly don’t have the heart for it today. Been avoiding the news because it’s just too depressing.
posted by pharm at 8:51 AM on March 29, 2017
I honestly don’t have the heart for it today. Been avoiding the news because it’s just too depressing.
posted by pharm at 8:51 AM on March 29, 2017
Can we just hang the new post of Donald Tusk's "we'll miss you"? No need for more than a transcript of the speech is needed, surely?
posted by ambrosen at 9:10 AM on March 29, 2017
posted by ambrosen at 9:10 AM on March 29, 2017
Stephen Bush annotates the A50 letter: "Translation: blah, blah, blah, I am a Proper Goth, honest. That Dido record was a gift from my mum. I haven’t even listened to it."
(He's not just snarking. But the snarking is good too.)
posted by effbot at 9:12 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
(He's not just snarking. But the snarking is good too.)
posted by effbot at 9:12 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Turns out I can't write the new post. Too emotional. But it looks like that Stephen Bush article should be part of it to me.
posted by ambrosen at 9:40 AM on March 29, 2017
posted by ambrosen at 9:40 AM on March 29, 2017
oh god
strap in and assume crash positions
this is not a drill
posted by kyrademon at 9:44 AM on March 29, 2017
strap in and assume crash positions
this is not a drill
posted by kyrademon at 9:44 AM on March 29, 2017
I sort of want to write a new Brexit/UK politics post in tabloid gossip style, after that 'Legsit' bollocks recently:
"Donald Tusk shows off KNEES in sharp trousers while making some statement or other, who cares about the details."
"Philip Hammond FLAUNTS his lovely spreadsheets in the House of Commons over cake-eating-vs-having spat with Boris Johnson."
"ALL GROWN UP? Michael Heseltine pours his lovely curves into a grey suit as he hands over revealing letter to Theresa May!"
"COME ON BABY LIGHT MY FIRE: RHI scandal comes back to burrrrrrn DUP at Stormont, leading to the collapse of power-sharing in Northern Ireland, nationalist calls for border poll, the increasing possibility of more actual fire."
But then I started thinking about what the actual Daily Mail is going to be like over the next few months, and now I'm all bleak and despairing again.
posted by Catseye at 10:55 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Donald Tusk shows off KNEES in sharp trousers while making some statement or other, who cares about the details."
"Philip Hammond FLAUNTS his lovely spreadsheets in the House of Commons over cake-eating-vs-having spat with Boris Johnson."
"ALL GROWN UP? Michael Heseltine pours his lovely curves into a grey suit as he hands over revealing letter to Theresa May!"
"COME ON BABY LIGHT MY FIRE: RHI scandal comes back to burrrrrrn DUP at Stormont, leading to the collapse of power-sharing in Northern Ireland, nationalist calls for border poll, the increasing possibility of more actual fire."
But then I started thinking about what the actual Daily Mail is going to be like over the next few months, and now I'm all bleak and despairing again.
posted by Catseye at 10:55 AM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm so sorry, my friends; I wish I could offer more than grief and solidarity. None of my harbours are safe any more either, if it helps? I know it doesn't.
Sending love.
posted by taz at 11:38 AM on March 29, 2017 [8 favorites]
Sending love.
posted by taz at 11:38 AM on March 29, 2017 [8 favorites]
EXCLUSIVE FOOTAGE: Theresa May severs ties with the EU
posted by lalochezia at 2:37 PM on March 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is Brexit the beginning of the end for international cooperation?
posted by tavegyl at 9:29 PM on March 29, 2017
posted by tavegyl at 9:29 PM on March 29, 2017
According to this, the following are the top priorities for Britons that really, really make it all worth to leave the EU:
- poorer worker protection, such as getting rid of 4 weeks holidays,
- bendy bananas!
- not having to subsidize green energy,
- not having to protect the great crested newt,
- incandescent lightbulbs,
- vacuum cleaners with >1600 watts.
Unfortunately not fake.
Now, I'm totally on board with the last two - I think that if there is an environmental cost in certain products, the way to go is not to forbid them, but just tax the hell out of them. That way, people who really, really want to use them, still can, while at the same time paying up for the burden to society, kind of like we do with fuel already.
But come on, Britons, is it really worth to throw away free trade for this?
posted by sour cream at 1:28 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
- poorer worker protection, such as getting rid of 4 weeks holidays,
- bendy bananas!
- not having to subsidize green energy,
- not having to protect the great crested newt,
- incandescent lightbulbs,
- vacuum cleaners with >1600 watts.
Unfortunately not fake.
Now, I'm totally on board with the last two - I think that if there is an environmental cost in certain products, the way to go is not to forbid them, but just tax the hell out of them. That way, people who really, really want to use them, still can, while at the same time paying up for the burden to society, kind of like we do with fuel already.
But come on, Britons, is it really worth to throw away free trade for this?
posted by sour cream at 1:28 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
- vacuum cleaners with >1600 watts.
Brexit really does suck.
posted by rory at 2:33 AM on March 30, 2017
Brexit really does suck.
posted by rory at 2:33 AM on March 30, 2017
The vacuum cleaners thing:
Vacuum cleaner makers backed the new rules when the industry was consulted before their introduction. And far from Britain “being told” how powerful vacuum cleaners could be, the UK government actively supported the measures and, like every member state, could have blocked them if it wanted to.
This gives more detail on why every country (Britain included) and the industry itself thinks its a good idea.
I have yet to get a good answer from Brexiters as to why we are doing this. If you dig into the hand-wavey sovereignty/self-determination argument, you quickly get to xenophobia. The red-tape argument doesn't wash. The body of law is equivalent to what a country would have to do on its own anyway. The immigration argument is nonsense and again quickly devolves into xenophobia.
The only honest arguments I've heard are from businessmen who are happy to get a chance to cut workers rights and environmental regulations. But I won't go into what I think about that.
posted by vacapinta at 2:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Vacuum cleaner makers backed the new rules when the industry was consulted before their introduction. And far from Britain “being told” how powerful vacuum cleaners could be, the UK government actively supported the measures and, like every member state, could have blocked them if it wanted to.
This gives more detail on why every country (Britain included) and the industry itself thinks its a good idea.
I have yet to get a good answer from Brexiters as to why we are doing this. If you dig into the hand-wavey sovereignty/self-determination argument, you quickly get to xenophobia. The red-tape argument doesn't wash. The body of law is equivalent to what a country would have to do on its own anyway. The immigration argument is nonsense and again quickly devolves into xenophobia.
The only honest arguments I've heard are from businessmen who are happy to get a chance to cut workers rights and environmental regulations. But I won't go into what I think about that.
posted by vacapinta at 2:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
A country sleepwalking into the sea, insisting we're wide awake
posted by dng at 4:41 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by dng at 4:41 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
The immigration argument is nonsense
Not really. But I don't really want to rehash the argument here. It always devolves into middle-class people demanding the right to exploit low-paid workers. Then onto racist accusations that English people are too lazy to do hard work. Any attempt to express solidarity with the poor (hint: this is the shit you should be doing) is machine-gunned down with a shower of 'xenophobia'.
I'm glad I gave up on the left years ago, because I find it hard to excuse the hypocrisy. There was a time when the left looked askance at globalization and unlimited free trade deals, but it turns out that they can be easily bought with cheap Pret-a-Manger sandwiches and hand car washes. Leaving the EU was always the nuclear option, but I understand why so many people are angry at being left behind and ignored. Or worse, endlessly told that they're wrong and here's an long list of middle-class reasons why...
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not really. But I don't really want to rehash the argument here. It always devolves into middle-class people demanding the right to exploit low-paid workers. Then onto racist accusations that English people are too lazy to do hard work. Any attempt to express solidarity with the poor (hint: this is the shit you should be doing) is machine-gunned down with a shower of 'xenophobia'.
I'm glad I gave up on the left years ago, because I find it hard to excuse the hypocrisy. There was a time when the left looked askance at globalization and unlimited free trade deals, but it turns out that they can be easily bought with cheap Pret-a-Manger sandwiches and hand car washes. Leaving the EU was always the nuclear option, but I understand why so many people are angry at being left behind and ignored. Or worse, endlessly told that they're wrong and here's an long list of middle-class reasons why...
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:54 AM on March 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Speaking of hypocrisy: Here's a report of anti-immigration pol Nick Griffin planning to emigrate to Hungary.
The article doesn't mention whether Griffin is welcome in Hungary.
posted by sour cream at 5:10 AM on March 30, 2017
The article doesn't mention whether Griffin is welcome in Hungary.
posted by sour cream at 5:10 AM on March 30, 2017
One more wrinkle to the vacuum cleaner thing:
More regulations tend to help companies already well-entrenched in a market.
I'm not ensure if this also applies to vacuum cleaners, but I could imagine that the following mechanism also tends to play out: Making energy-efficient vacuum cleaners it not easy and requires highly sophisticated technology, which companies based in the EU usually have.
Competitors from countries outside the EU are less likely to have that technology. Or they may not have paid so much attention to it, because those countries lack those regulations. That means, it may be EASIER for EU countries to meet those regulations and more DIFFICULT for companies from, say, China, Turkey or India, and well-nigh IMPOSSIBLE for companies from, say, South America or Africa.
So in effect, the regulation may act as a trade barrier disguised as environmental protection. And you can bet your ass that EU bureaucrats will have thought about this effect before they enacted the regulation.
This means that abandoning the regulation will NOT help UK industry, but on the contrary, may make it more vulnerable to foreign competition, which will become equally "unshackled".
posted by sour cream at 5:25 AM on March 30, 2017
More regulations tend to help companies already well-entrenched in a market.
I'm not ensure if this also applies to vacuum cleaners, but I could imagine that the following mechanism also tends to play out: Making energy-efficient vacuum cleaners it not easy and requires highly sophisticated technology, which companies based in the EU usually have.
Competitors from countries outside the EU are less likely to have that technology. Or they may not have paid so much attention to it, because those countries lack those regulations. That means, it may be EASIER for EU countries to meet those regulations and more DIFFICULT for companies from, say, China, Turkey or India, and well-nigh IMPOSSIBLE for companies from, say, South America or Africa.
So in effect, the regulation may act as a trade barrier disguised as environmental protection. And you can bet your ass that EU bureaucrats will have thought about this effect before they enacted the regulation.
This means that abandoning the regulation will NOT help UK industry, but on the contrary, may make it more vulnerable to foreign competition, which will become equally "unshackled".
posted by sour cream at 5:25 AM on March 30, 2017
As a Mexican-American, I've seen the same immigration dynamic play out in the US. The lowest-end workers are exploited, placed in the back kitchens or in the fields and then, after all that, demonized.
Surely, the lack of jobs is their fault, those immigrants, and not the fault of shady business practices or a government that looks the other way, sacrificing worker welfare for productivity numbers.
As the UK leaves the EU, people are fantasising if they think the Tories are now free to create a worker paradise with great jobs and benefits for all, as if it was the EU and immigrants holding them back from that all along.
There are lots of problems in the UK which is why it has the greatest income disparity among all EU countries. This is not the fault of the EU. It is the fault of domestic policies. And, I fear that especially among the lowest classes and the poorest, it is now going to get worse.
posted by vacapinta at 5:30 AM on March 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
Surely, the lack of jobs is their fault, those immigrants, and not the fault of shady business practices or a government that looks the other way, sacrificing worker welfare for productivity numbers.
As the UK leaves the EU, people are fantasising if they think the Tories are now free to create a worker paradise with great jobs and benefits for all, as if it was the EU and immigrants holding them back from that all along.
There are lots of problems in the UK which is why it has the greatest income disparity among all EU countries. This is not the fault of the EU. It is the fault of domestic policies. And, I fear that especially among the lowest classes and the poorest, it is now going to get worse.
posted by vacapinta at 5:30 AM on March 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
Is Brexit the result of outside election disruption, like the US & France seems to be?
posted by yoga at 5:31 AM on March 30, 2017
posted by yoga at 5:31 AM on March 30, 2017
The immigration and low paying, hard labor, jobs issue often boils down to one of the unspoken truths of economics. Anytime someone says "we can't find people to fill these jobs", what they **REALLY** mean is "we can't find people to fill these jobs at the pay and conditions we're offering".
There's nothing magic about, say, fieldwork (to pick the perennial (heh) American use of immigrant labor) that requires immigrant labor. It's just that there is a larger pool of desperate people in Mexico willing to do backbreaking work in crappy conditions for shit pay than there are in the USA.
Same dynamic applies in the UK, as Emma May Smith points out. And it is very much a class issue, though I do think she's a bit quick to dismiss the racial aspect.
As long as the labor in question can be presented as something Those People do, then it's acceptable to ignore the horrible working conditions and criminally low pay and benefits. People seeking workers from poverty stricken nations to do labor (manual construction labor, farm labor, hotel housekeeping labor, whatever) are very much playing the "at the pay and conditions we're offering".
It isn't that British people are incapable of those jobs, anymore than it is that American people are incapable of those jobs, it's that British/American people want pay (or better conditions) that the employers are unwilling to offer.
That's not an argument against immigration, and I do favor a much more open border policy all around. But it is an argument against the idea that immigration is a requirement for certain professions, that's just an excuse for keeping conditions shitty and pay low.
posted by sotonohito at 5:39 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
There's nothing magic about, say, fieldwork (to pick the perennial (heh) American use of immigrant labor) that requires immigrant labor. It's just that there is a larger pool of desperate people in Mexico willing to do backbreaking work in crappy conditions for shit pay than there are in the USA.
Same dynamic applies in the UK, as Emma May Smith points out. And it is very much a class issue, though I do think she's a bit quick to dismiss the racial aspect.
As long as the labor in question can be presented as something Those People do, then it's acceptable to ignore the horrible working conditions and criminally low pay and benefits. People seeking workers from poverty stricken nations to do labor (manual construction labor, farm labor, hotel housekeeping labor, whatever) are very much playing the "at the pay and conditions we're offering".
It isn't that British people are incapable of those jobs, anymore than it is that American people are incapable of those jobs, it's that British/American people want pay (or better conditions) that the employers are unwilling to offer.
That's not an argument against immigration, and I do favor a much more open border policy all around. But it is an argument against the idea that immigration is a requirement for certain professions, that's just an excuse for keeping conditions shitty and pay low.
posted by sotonohito at 5:39 AM on March 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
There was a time when the left looked askance at globalization and unlimited free trade deals, but it turns out that they can be easily bought with cheap Pret-a-Manger sandwiches and hand car washes. Leaving the EU was always the nuclear option, but I understand why so many people are angry at being left behind and ignored. Or worse, endlessly told that they're wrong and here's an long list of middle-class reasons why...
This seems to be one of the fundamental differences between Brexiters and other EU citizens: Brexiters see the EU as a free trade deal with some 'strings' attached: in particular, the free movement of people. Non-Brexiters see freedom of movement as a right of citizenship in the EU. So a German or a Pole moving to another EU country is exercising his or her rights as an EU citizen, just like someone moving from London to Birmingham wouldn’t expect to apply for a visa first. Because why would they want to do that?
Here on the mainland, the benefits of border-free travel are, perhaps, more obvious. The border security booths are literally torn out of the roads and people can pass without queuing up. For a Berliner, heading to Poland for a day’s shopping or going to the beach is something you can do. Now, compare that to the situation in 1988 and think about the drastic, positive changes since. Thank the EU for that.
Speaking of restricted freedom of movement, I feel sympathy for those in Ireland and Scotland especially, who are torn between choosing the EU or sticking it with England. You mentioned people being left behind?
posted by romanb at 5:41 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
This seems to be one of the fundamental differences between Brexiters and other EU citizens: Brexiters see the EU as a free trade deal with some 'strings' attached: in particular, the free movement of people. Non-Brexiters see freedom of movement as a right of citizenship in the EU. So a German or a Pole moving to another EU country is exercising his or her rights as an EU citizen, just like someone moving from London to Birmingham wouldn’t expect to apply for a visa first. Because why would they want to do that?
Here on the mainland, the benefits of border-free travel are, perhaps, more obvious. The border security booths are literally torn out of the roads and people can pass without queuing up. For a Berliner, heading to Poland for a day’s shopping or going to the beach is something you can do. Now, compare that to the situation in 1988 and think about the drastic, positive changes since. Thank the EU for that.
Speaking of restricted freedom of movement, I feel sympathy for those in Ireland and Scotland especially, who are torn between choosing the EU or sticking it with England. You mentioned people being left behind?
posted by romanb at 5:41 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
But it is an argument against the idea that immigration is a requirement for certain professions, that's just an excuse for keeping conditions shitty and pay low.
So how do you improve conditions and raise pay?
It turns out that REGULATIONS are a good way to do that, such as minimum pay or, say, limiting the number of work hours per week or guaranteeing a minimum number of paid holidays, which is, incidentally, the first thing on this previously linked list (scroll down a bit) that Brexiteers want to do away with.
So Brexit is not likely to improve labor conditions in the UK. On the contrary.
posted by sour cream at 5:50 AM on March 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
So how do you improve conditions and raise pay?
It turns out that REGULATIONS are a good way to do that, such as minimum pay or, say, limiting the number of work hours per week or guaranteeing a minimum number of paid holidays, which is, incidentally, the first thing on this previously linked list (scroll down a bit) that Brexiteers want to do away with.
So Brexit is not likely to improve labor conditions in the UK. On the contrary.
posted by sour cream at 5:50 AM on March 30, 2017 [11 favorites]
It always devolves into middle-class people demanding the right to exploit low-paid workers.
A great many voices in the argument are those of EU27 citizens living in the UK, many of whom have lived here for years, and their friends, colleagues, partners and children. Are they all just "demanding the right to exploit low-paid workers"?
And even if all EU27 UK residents were low-paid workers, wouldn't that make fighting for their rights an expression of solidarity with the poor? Or is it just poor UK citizens we should express solidarity with?
There was a time when the left looked askance at globalization and unlimited free trade deals
There was a time when casual racism was the stuff of light entertainment for the British masses, so it's hardly surprising that the idea of letting foreigners trade on equal terms, and even live alongside you, would have been challenged then. What's our excuse for protectionism now? Taking back control? If anyone thinks that globalization will spare Britain's sensibilities after Brexit, I have a Chinese-made DVD player to sell you.
posted by rory at 5:51 AM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
A great many voices in the argument are those of EU27 citizens living in the UK, many of whom have lived here for years, and their friends, colleagues, partners and children. Are they all just "demanding the right to exploit low-paid workers"?
And even if all EU27 UK residents were low-paid workers, wouldn't that make fighting for their rights an expression of solidarity with the poor? Or is it just poor UK citizens we should express solidarity with?
There was a time when the left looked askance at globalization and unlimited free trade deals
There was a time when casual racism was the stuff of light entertainment for the British masses, so it's hardly surprising that the idea of letting foreigners trade on equal terms, and even live alongside you, would have been challenged then. What's our excuse for protectionism now? Taking back control? If anyone thinks that globalization will spare Britain's sensibilities after Brexit, I have a Chinese-made DVD player to sell you.
posted by rory at 5:51 AM on March 30, 2017 [7 favorites]
Or is it just poor UK citizens we should express solidarity with?
Nailed it!
posted by dhens at 6:10 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nailed it!
posted by dhens at 6:10 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
> "It always devolves into middle-class people demanding the right to exploit low-paid workers."
The fact that you have been continually deaf to the pleas of immigrants to the UK on these threads explaining how their lives are going to be at best disrupted and at worst destroyed says a lot about the kind of arguments you are willing to pay attention to.
posted by kyrademon at 6:13 AM on March 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
The fact that you have been continually deaf to the pleas of immigrants to the UK on these threads explaining how their lives are going to be at best disrupted and at worst destroyed says a lot about the kind of arguments you are willing to pay attention to.
posted by kyrademon at 6:13 AM on March 30, 2017 [12 favorites]
Any attempt to express solidarity with the poor (hint: this is the shit you should be doing) is machine-gunned down with a shower of 'xenophobia'.
I am poor. In thread after thread you continue to ignore my situation, or tell me in coded language that this is what I get for living in a country other than the one that issues my passport. It's not the anti-Brexit brigade who are lacking in solidarity...
posted by Dysk at 6:21 AM on March 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
I am poor. In thread after thread you continue to ignore my situation, or tell me in coded language that this is what I get for living in a country other than the one that issues my passport. It's not the anti-Brexit brigade who are lacking in solidarity...
posted by Dysk at 6:21 AM on March 30, 2017 [10 favorites]
I was going to do the hard work of arguing against the standard Lexit talking points that Emma May Smith raised, but thankfully for me other people got there first. Sadly, it's people whose lives are even more turned upside-down than my own is by Brexit. It seems to have ended up that the British born MeFites in favour of the EU have pretty much lost their will to defend their rights, and it's left to the non-British born UK residents to stick up for themselves. So, for my part, sorry.
I'll concede that hand car washes are a cancer, though. Mainly they're not obeying existing laws already, as I understand it. No minimum wage, no paperwork, often people without the right to work in the UK. Ostracise people who use them.
posted by ambrosen at 7:00 AM on March 30, 2017
I'll concede that hand car washes are a cancer, though. Mainly they're not obeying existing laws already, as I understand it. No minimum wage, no paperwork, often people without the right to work in the UK. Ostracise people who use them.
posted by ambrosen at 7:00 AM on March 30, 2017
Then onto racist accusations that English people are too lazy to do hard work. Any attempt to express solidarity with the poor (hint: this is the shit you should be doing) is machine-gunned down with a shower of 'xenophobia'.
Its not a leftist conspiracy theory that the Conservatives (i.e The people in charge of the country for the next decade, should Labour not get their shit together) want to erode worker rights because the relevant Cabinet members have made statements of exactly that, repeatedly. It's not a secret.
The poor arent one (white) homogeneous mass, either, and telling them to point to the Polish bloke working a NMW job as the problem rather than the past 30 odd years of business policy isn't going to help them one fucking bit, so I don't.
I completely agree with you that it's shitty when people say Brits are too lazy to do x job, because it is, frequently, said by people who've never worked a manual job in their lives. But the reality of the situation is that many of the E-Europeans I worked with fruit picking were going to earn enough in a few seasons of work to put down a substantial deposit on a house in their home countries or to fund degrees. So it was completely worth it for them to live in cramped conditions, tents even, and keep schtum about their hours not matching their pay packets etc.
If fruit picking paid reasonably and had decent conditions, then of course British people would do it. But it doesn't, and it never will, because you'd end up with strawberries costing a tenner a punnet.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:03 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Its not a leftist conspiracy theory that the Conservatives (i.e The people in charge of the country for the next decade, should Labour not get their shit together) want to erode worker rights because the relevant Cabinet members have made statements of exactly that, repeatedly. It's not a secret.
The poor arent one (white) homogeneous mass, either, and telling them to point to the Polish bloke working a NMW job as the problem rather than the past 30 odd years of business policy isn't going to help them one fucking bit, so I don't.
I completely agree with you that it's shitty when people say Brits are too lazy to do x job, because it is, frequently, said by people who've never worked a manual job in their lives. But the reality of the situation is that many of the E-Europeans I worked with fruit picking were going to earn enough in a few seasons of work to put down a substantial deposit on a house in their home countries or to fund degrees. So it was completely worth it for them to live in cramped conditions, tents even, and keep schtum about their hours not matching their pay packets etc.
If fruit picking paid reasonably and had decent conditions, then of course British people would do it. But it doesn't, and it never will, because you'd end up with strawberries costing a tenner a punnet.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:03 AM on March 30, 2017 [4 favorites]
Here, from the Daily Telegraph front page is what is so great about Brexit and why we are doing all this: Booze on ferries.
The article contains a video of 100 great things about Brexit. (Note: If things like "No Green targets", "Pesticides that really work!" and "Trade deal with the US!" get you excited then this is the video for you.)
posted by vacapinta at 8:45 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
The article contains a video of 100 great things about Brexit. (Note: If things like "No Green targets", "Pesticides that really work!" and "Trade deal with the US!" get you excited then this is the video for you.)
posted by vacapinta at 8:45 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Any attempt to express solidarity with the poor (hint: this is the shit you should be doing) is machine-gunned down with a shower of 'xenophobia'.
It's pretty clear that you don't give a flying fuck about the poor if they happen to come from another part of the european union. Putting your fellow union citizens in a box labelled "others" and arguing that they're radically different from proper people like yourself is exactly what xenophobia is, whether you like to put the word in quotation marks or not.
posted by effbot at 11:32 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's pretty clear that you don't give a flying fuck about the poor if they happen to come from another part of the european union. Putting your fellow union citizens in a box labelled "others" and arguing that they're radically different from proper people like yourself is exactly what xenophobia is, whether you like to put the word in quotation marks or not.
posted by effbot at 11:32 AM on March 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
Putting your fellow union citizens in a box labelled "others"
So I've been thinking a lot about both Brexit and the Trump phenomenon, and I'm wondering if perhaps in many ways the same problem isn't going on - that while both nations paid lip service to internationalism, it really meant 'as long as I'm the person setting the standards'. England, (and yes I mean England rather than the UK) coming fresh off being an imperial power, sort of intellectually understood that its dominance was slipping away, but thought of it as a freak phase - thought of themselves as a Major Power Player, thought that everyone in their heart of hearts secretly wanted to be British. That rather than the Union changing Britain, Britain would change the Union. That any immigrants who came would come furiously waving the Union Jack and accepting that they're not quite equal to British citizens and desperate for their chance at assimilation, to be a part of Britishness.
And that really hasn't been the case. We see even in this thread that far from "some corner of a foreign field / that is forever England", British citizens are talking about how they feel their "real allegiance" is to the European Union, how they feel more European than British. Immigrants who have been in England for years don't seem to be frantically trying to out-British folks. Which is perfectly fine! These are reasonable things to feel! But it sort of seems to strike at the heart of "Rule, Brittania" that is still an undercurrent of feeling.
And that's honestly tragic, for both our countries, that we're coming to terms with the idea that our whims don't swing other nations really that much at all. People who voted for "Leave" seem to have felt like Britain would take its toys and go home and everyone would follow after begging to still be in contact and offering generous concessions. But the actual reaction seems more waking from a dream, as if people are puzzled why they even would give concessions to the UK, which is no longer the prime mover anymore.
posted by corb at 12:00 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
So I've been thinking a lot about both Brexit and the Trump phenomenon, and I'm wondering if perhaps in many ways the same problem isn't going on - that while both nations paid lip service to internationalism, it really meant 'as long as I'm the person setting the standards'. England, (and yes I mean England rather than the UK) coming fresh off being an imperial power, sort of intellectually understood that its dominance was slipping away, but thought of it as a freak phase - thought of themselves as a Major Power Player, thought that everyone in their heart of hearts secretly wanted to be British. That rather than the Union changing Britain, Britain would change the Union. That any immigrants who came would come furiously waving the Union Jack and accepting that they're not quite equal to British citizens and desperate for their chance at assimilation, to be a part of Britishness.
And that really hasn't been the case. We see even in this thread that far from "some corner of a foreign field / that is forever England", British citizens are talking about how they feel their "real allegiance" is to the European Union, how they feel more European than British. Immigrants who have been in England for years don't seem to be frantically trying to out-British folks. Which is perfectly fine! These are reasonable things to feel! But it sort of seems to strike at the heart of "Rule, Brittania" that is still an undercurrent of feeling.
And that's honestly tragic, for both our countries, that we're coming to terms with the idea that our whims don't swing other nations really that much at all. People who voted for "Leave" seem to have felt like Britain would take its toys and go home and everyone would follow after begging to still be in contact and offering generous concessions. But the actual reaction seems more waking from a dream, as if people are puzzled why they even would give concessions to the UK, which is no longer the prime mover anymore.
posted by corb at 12:00 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
More regulations tend to help companies already well-entrenched in a market.
Don't tell Uber or the taxi companies that...
posted by Mental Wimp at 5:00 PM on March 30, 2017
Don't tell Uber or the taxi companies that...
posted by Mental Wimp at 5:00 PM on March 30, 2017
I'm not sure what you mean by that comment, but I believe that Uber as well as taxi companies are acutely aware of the effect that market regulations have on their business.
Requiring that anyone transporting passengers for money has a license that costs, say, 50000$ or passing a test that you need to study months for, or that you need to have a car that is painted in a certain color or be member of a club requiring annual membership fees or have some mandatory insurance ... all of those are regulations that have existed or still exist in many taxi markets.
All of those regulations make it more difficult for new competitors to enter the market. Uber can only enter those markets where those restrictions largely don't apply (or where Uber chooses to ignore them). Businesses may bitch about the red tape, but most of them understand that those regulations are ultimately in their interest.
Now, not all regulations are in the interest of businesses. Take roaming fees for example. The fact that you can call home to the UK from Spain or Cyprus for a fraction of what it used to cost even 5 years ago (or what it still costs in most parts of the world) is thanks to an EU regulation.
And that's the way it goes with all regulations: They are ultimately in the interest of consumers, or of business, or even "special" interests like the environment. Some of them try to balance interests some don't, but taken as a whole, you are dealing with a finely-woven net of balanced interests. To say that all those regulations are "red tape" and once we get rid of them, our economy will be "unshackled" and take off is extremely myopic.
One more thing: There are thousands of regulations coming from the EU, so it shouldn't come as a surprise if some of them don't make sense at all. I bet there are at least a hundred that are either totally ridiculous or even extremely harmful. That should be par for the course (and they should be properly addressed and fixed). But of all those potential good examples that must be out there, the first example that the Telegraph comes up with in that previously linked list (scroll down...), the first one is a directive aimed at better worker's protection and the third one is a directive aimed at better environmental protection (as are number 5 and 6).
Now, maybe you don't agree with those particular directives, but of all the 10000 EU regulations, those are the worst that you can come up with!? Really? I mean, there must be some truly horrible ones out there, but evidently, the Telegraph can't be bothered to find them. If that's not lazy reporting, then I don't know what is. But I suppose that's what passes for "journalism" these days in the UK...
posted by sour cream at 2:26 AM on March 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Requiring that anyone transporting passengers for money has a license that costs, say, 50000$ or passing a test that you need to study months for, or that you need to have a car that is painted in a certain color or be member of a club requiring annual membership fees or have some mandatory insurance ... all of those are regulations that have existed or still exist in many taxi markets.
All of those regulations make it more difficult for new competitors to enter the market. Uber can only enter those markets where those restrictions largely don't apply (or where Uber chooses to ignore them). Businesses may bitch about the red tape, but most of them understand that those regulations are ultimately in their interest.
Now, not all regulations are in the interest of businesses. Take roaming fees for example. The fact that you can call home to the UK from Spain or Cyprus for a fraction of what it used to cost even 5 years ago (or what it still costs in most parts of the world) is thanks to an EU regulation.
And that's the way it goes with all regulations: They are ultimately in the interest of consumers, or of business, or even "special" interests like the environment. Some of them try to balance interests some don't, but taken as a whole, you are dealing with a finely-woven net of balanced interests. To say that all those regulations are "red tape" and once we get rid of them, our economy will be "unshackled" and take off is extremely myopic.
One more thing: There are thousands of regulations coming from the EU, so it shouldn't come as a surprise if some of them don't make sense at all. I bet there are at least a hundred that are either totally ridiculous or even extremely harmful. That should be par for the course (and they should be properly addressed and fixed). But of all those potential good examples that must be out there, the first example that the Telegraph comes up with in that previously linked list (scroll down...), the first one is a directive aimed at better worker's protection and the third one is a directive aimed at better environmental protection (as are number 5 and 6).
Now, maybe you don't agree with those particular directives, but of all the 10000 EU regulations, those are the worst that you can come up with!? Really? I mean, there must be some truly horrible ones out there, but evidently, the Telegraph can't be bothered to find them. If that's not lazy reporting, then I don't know what is. But I suppose that's what passes for "journalism" these days in the UK...
posted by sour cream at 2:26 AM on March 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
How's that reassertion of sovereignty and the noble traditions of empire going already? Ah, not so well...
The Gibraltarians are stuffed.
posted by Devonian at 9:19 AM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Gibraltarians are stuffed.
posted by Devonian at 9:19 AM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I dunno, if they end up rolled into Spain (an EU country) they'll be left with a lot more freedoms and rights than the rest of the UK.
posted by Dysk at 9:57 AM on March 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:57 AM on March 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Oh, no doubt. Scotland would trade places in a blink. But in terms of getting what they want, el stuffolini royale, ditto the entire narrative of protecting British interests against the whatever-it-is-nastiness of furriners...
posted by Devonian at 10:57 AM on March 31, 2017
posted by Devonian at 10:57 AM on March 31, 2017
Christ, just look at those commenters on that Indie article talking gleefully about Spain's entirely predictable intransigence over Gibraltar as being an "act of war". Is this what they secretly voted for last June? A re-run of not only World War II, the Great War, the Napoleonic Wars and Culloden, but even the Spanish Armada?
You're going to lose it all. Gibraltar, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the financial sector, the car industry, the airline industry, the oil industry, agriculture, fisheries, universities, the NHS, four weeks of paid leave a year, cheap travel in Europe, reciprocal health care in Europe, three million people who've been helping keep Blighty going, and every last thing that makes life more than an endless struggle to stay dry, warm and fed.
But hey, blue passports.
posted by rory at 1:20 AM on April 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
You're going to lose it all. Gibraltar, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the financial sector, the car industry, the airline industry, the oil industry, agriculture, fisheries, universities, the NHS, four weeks of paid leave a year, cheap travel in Europe, reciprocal health care in Europe, three million people who've been helping keep Blighty going, and every last thing that makes life more than an endless struggle to stay dry, warm and fed.
But hey, blue passports.
posted by rory at 1:20 AM on April 1, 2017 [13 favorites]
We're going to have to get used to every item of negotiation being AN ACT OF WAR AND PERFIDY, because there is no other narrative that makes any logical sense in the framing of Brexit. It won't be long - if indeed it hasn't happened and I've mercifully missed it - before we're back in 1940 and Britain Alone Against The Hunnish Horde preparing to pour across the Channel to crush our freedoms beneath their jackboots.
It will be impossible to negotiate anything under such conditions; having capitulated entirely to the Hard Brexit wing, the Tories cannot resist the howling rage any further.
Which will be fun.
(It is grimly amusing that the Spanish, having been used to frighten the credulous during the first Scottish independence referendum, are now such a shocking surprise...)
posted by Devonian at 5:10 AM on April 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
It will be impossible to negotiate anything under such conditions; having capitulated entirely to the Hard Brexit wing, the Tories cannot resist the howling rage any further.
Which will be fun.
(It is grimly amusing that the Spanish, having been used to frighten the credulous during the first Scottish independence referendum, are now such a shocking surprise...)
posted by Devonian at 5:10 AM on April 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm increasingly convinced that the Brexit vote was also a referendum on the Union itself, and more important that the people who voted Brexit knew it and wanted the Union to unravel. They're tired of a United Kingdom and want England all by its lonesome again.
What keeps the Brexiters from fully and completely implementing their insane arch-conservative agenda? Scotland and the more liberal parts of the Union.
Solution: Piss off the Scots so much that they really do leave thus making England a single party state and unfettering the Conservatives.
posted by sotonohito at 5:12 AM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
What keeps the Brexiters from fully and completely implementing their insane arch-conservative agenda? Scotland and the more liberal parts of the Union.
Solution: Piss off the Scots so much that they really do leave thus making England a single party state and unfettering the Conservatives.
posted by sotonohito at 5:12 AM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Devonian: Wars have started for less. But Brexit won't make war, which kinda validates the whole European Union thing. So, let's have more of this European integration ...
Oh wait.
posted by runcifex at 5:16 AM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh wait.
posted by runcifex at 5:16 AM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Spain says it would not veto an application by Scotland to join the EU.
posted by vacapinta at 3:00 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 3:00 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
We're, what, four days into Article 50 and already we're at war with Spain.
That thing us pro-EUers said about the whole purpose of the exercise was to prevent European conflict? Yeah, that.
posted by Devonian at 4:55 AM on April 2, 2017
That thing us pro-EUers said about the whole purpose of the exercise was to prevent European conflict? Yeah, that.
posted by Devonian at 4:55 AM on April 2, 2017
It's pretty clear that you don't give a flying fuck about the poor if they happen to come from another part of the european union. Putting your fellow union citizens in a box labelled "others" and arguing that they're radically different from proper people like yourself is exactly what xenophobia is, whether you like to put the word in quotation marks or not.
How is this different from idiots who cry, "All lives matter!"?
Anyway, very good of you to say that you're in solidarity with everybody, nice work, have another smug-biscuit to dunk in your tea. Don't forget to remind the homeless you pass in the street that there are homeless people in China too, and you're thinking about them all because you're not a xenophobe. Actually, no, wait, not China! They're not in the European Union, just homeless people France, Germany, Italy...
You see, there are many more poor people in the world than fucks you have to give. Most are going to live and die without your compassion making a blind bit of difference to them. Your declarations of solidarity with the world's poor mean literally nothing, or near to. But there are thousands of poor people (well, sadly, millions) whom you're in society with. You're attached to them, socially, politically, economically, by many and strong bonds, and your choices affect them. That person means something to you even if you're ignorant of it and their poverty will impact upon you in very real ways.
Solidarity is an admission of these facts and a desire to treat them seriously. Even though there are bonds which tie all humans together (quite rightly) the idea that you can express solidarity with all equally is feigned helplessness: you set yourself a goal you know you can never achieve so as to ignore a goal you can. The middle-class has often tried to shirk its responsibilities to the poor around them, I guess this is just a new tactic in the long war.
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:41 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
How is this different from idiots who cry, "All lives matter!"?
Anyway, very good of you to say that you're in solidarity with everybody, nice work, have another smug-biscuit to dunk in your tea. Don't forget to remind the homeless you pass in the street that there are homeless people in China too, and you're thinking about them all because you're not a xenophobe. Actually, no, wait, not China! They're not in the European Union, just homeless people France, Germany, Italy...
You see, there are many more poor people in the world than fucks you have to give. Most are going to live and die without your compassion making a blind bit of difference to them. Your declarations of solidarity with the world's poor mean literally nothing, or near to. But there are thousands of poor people (well, sadly, millions) whom you're in society with. You're attached to them, socially, politically, economically, by many and strong bonds, and your choices affect them. That person means something to you even if you're ignorant of it and their poverty will impact upon you in very real ways.
Solidarity is an admission of these facts and a desire to treat them seriously. Even though there are bonds which tie all humans together (quite rightly) the idea that you can express solidarity with all equally is feigned helplessness: you set yourself a goal you know you can never achieve so as to ignore a goal you can. The middle-class has often tried to shirk its responsibilities to the poor around them, I guess this is just a new tactic in the long war.
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:41 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Could you possibly pull back the reins just a little on your galloping through people's minds and telling them what their real motives and abilities and priorities are?
posted by Etrigan at 8:28 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:28 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Emma May Smith, that was an eloquent way of saying charity begins at home, but yeah, I don't believe it. The quantifiable impacts on the poorest in British society are tiny compared to the impact of the cost of Brexit, and you're using motivated reasoning if you try to persuade yourself otherwise.
One of the main market failures of the modern economy is the tendency of housing costs to always be enough to make the minimum wage, or worse still benefits leave you below the poverty level. I suspect that if there were even a slight amount of the effort put into housing market reform that has already been put into messing around with the EU, then poverty would be greatly, greatly lower.
posted by ambrosen at 8:55 AM on April 2, 2017
One of the main market failures of the modern economy is the tendency of housing costs to always be enough to make the minimum wage, or worse still benefits leave you below the poverty level. I suspect that if there were even a slight amount of the effort put into housing market reform that has already been put into messing around with the EU, then poverty would be greatly, greatly lower.
posted by ambrosen at 8:55 AM on April 2, 2017
You're attached to them, socially, politically, economically, by many and strong bonds, and your choices affect them. That person means something to you even if you're ignorant of it and their poverty will impact upon you in very real ways.
I am unclear on how your narrative that anyone who voted Remain is part of the middle-class Pret-consuming North-London-dwelling elite who have no idea how the other half lives explains the lived experience of many of the people you're talking to here (or indeed the vote share in, oh say, Liverpool or Inverclyde...), no matter how many times you repeat it, but okay, you'll believe what you want to.
Still, you're presumably at least aware that many of us do not see Brexit as something that will make life better for The Poor? It's not going to lead to wealth pouring into the country - and even if it did, do you really think the Tory hard right is going to channel all that into reducing social inequality? It's not going to abolish capitalism. It's not going to bring back all those manufacturing jobs we lost. It's not going to improve housing, schools, the NHS, the chronic underfunding of social care and the demographic shift exacerbating that.
But hey, what do I know? I'm sure the Nigel Farages and Jacob Rees-Moggs of the world are going to bring about a socialist revolution any second now.
posted by Catseye at 9:07 AM on April 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
I am unclear on how your narrative that anyone who voted Remain is part of the middle-class Pret-consuming North-London-dwelling elite who have no idea how the other half lives explains the lived experience of many of the people you're talking to here (or indeed the vote share in, oh say, Liverpool or Inverclyde...), no matter how many times you repeat it, but okay, you'll believe what you want to.
Still, you're presumably at least aware that many of us do not see Brexit as something that will make life better for The Poor? It's not going to lead to wealth pouring into the country - and even if it did, do you really think the Tory hard right is going to channel all that into reducing social inequality? It's not going to abolish capitalism. It's not going to bring back all those manufacturing jobs we lost. It's not going to improve housing, schools, the NHS, the chronic underfunding of social care and the demographic shift exacerbating that.
But hey, what do I know? I'm sure the Nigel Farages and Jacob Rees-Moggs of the world are going to bring about a socialist revolution any second now.
posted by Catseye at 9:07 AM on April 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Things you can do from your armchair if you want to stop/mitigate the damages of Brexit:
1) Subscribe to the New European. Stay informed.
2) Donate to the Good Law Project to force government accountability for Brexit, legislate for workers rights and for corporate taxes.
3) Brexit can be stopped. Article 50 is not irreversible. Write to your MP.
4) Vote for Remain candidates and parties in local and general elections.
posted by vacapinta at 11:47 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
1) Subscribe to the New European. Stay informed.
2) Donate to the Good Law Project to force government accountability for Brexit, legislate for workers rights and for corporate taxes.
3) Brexit can be stopped. Article 50 is not irreversible. Write to your MP.
4) Vote for Remain candidates and parties in local and general elections.
posted by vacapinta at 11:47 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Anyway, very good of you to say that you're in solidarity with everybody, nice work, have another smug-biscuit to dunk in your tea.
This is itself an unbearably smug way of effectively saying "no, I have no solidarity for you".
posted by Dysk at 5:19 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is itself an unbearably smug way of effectively saying "no, I have no solidarity for you".
posted by Dysk at 5:19 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
But there are thousands of poor people (well, sadly, millions) whom you're in society with. You're attached to them, socially, politically, economically, by many and strong bonds, and your choices affect them. That person means something to you even if you're ignorant of it and their poverty will impact upon you in very real ways.
In today's news: Welfare shakeup 'will push a quarter of a million children into poverty'.
Regardless of how radical and social Brexiteers on the left thought they were, their vote contributed to the consolidation of absolute Tory power in the UK, and will continue to do so.
posted by mumimor at 11:00 PM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
In today's news: Welfare shakeup 'will push a quarter of a million children into poverty'.
Regardless of how radical and social Brexiteers on the left thought they were, their vote contributed to the consolidation of absolute Tory power in the UK, and will continue to do so.
posted by mumimor at 11:00 PM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Emma May Smith, can I just check on what you are saying: is it your view that solidarity with EU immigrants who are already in this country = a failure to offer solidarity to people who really matter because of shared economic/political/cultural ties? My understanding is that people were inviting you to extend some empathy to people who live here and whose family life and future have been radically disrupted by the uncertainty of Brexit. Why do you think that's the same thing as refusing to help a homeless person in England on the basis that some people are homeless in China? Who, in Britain, will be helped by attacks on German and Polish people who are already here and how do you define the people already in the country who matter more than these immigrants?
posted by Aravis76 at 12:19 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Aravis76 at 12:19 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The whole "well what about the homeless in China? Nyah!" thing also overlooks that there is no current UK government move to take any rights from the Chinese poor. Meanwhile, there is an active movement to strip a bunch of poor people living in the UK of a bunch of rights, and those that oppose it are the ones without empathy? Come off it.
posted by Dysk at 1:55 AM on April 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:55 AM on April 3, 2017 [6 favorites]
Gibraltar stuff going crazy already, but reassuringly, May has ruled out war
posted by mumimor at 5:58 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 5:58 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
ha-ha.gif:
Drive to replace UK-EU trade links with closer ties to Commonwealth
I remember when the Commonwealth did have closer ties with the UK, before you lot took away our British passports, jumped into bed with Johnny Foreigner, and then humiliated us sons and daughters of the Empire by making us stand in an immigration queue marked "other".
I think the question must be why the great English-speaking nations of Asia and Australasia would want to start fussing about organising special trade arrangements with an island on the other end of the world - and perhaps not even all of that island, either, if Scotland goes its own way. Still, we won't be harsh. You go and wait in that line over there, the one past the US and Chinese trade delegations. Yes, that's it, the one marked "other".
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:39 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Drive to replace UK-EU trade links with closer ties to Commonwealth
I remember when the Commonwealth did have closer ties with the UK, before you lot took away our British passports, jumped into bed with Johnny Foreigner, and then humiliated us sons and daughters of the Empire by making us stand in an immigration queue marked "other".
I think the question must be why the great English-speaking nations of Asia and Australasia would want to start fussing about organising special trade arrangements with an island on the other end of the world - and perhaps not even all of that island, either, if Scotland goes its own way. Still, we won't be harsh. You go and wait in that line over there, the one past the US and Chinese trade delegations. Yes, that's it, the one marked "other".
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:39 PM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Our Prime Minister - a story in four parts (but a single tweet)
posted by Devonian at 8:45 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Devonian at 8:45 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
sour cream: I'm not sure what you mean by that comment,...
I meant that, contrary to the assertion that they favor the established businesses, regulations have favored upstart Uber over traditional taxi companies. Uber (applies to Lyft, too) was able to escape the onerous regulations by and large by claiming to have a different business. Taxis are struggling. I thought this was obvious, so didn't elaborate.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:06 PM on April 6, 2017
I meant that, contrary to the assertion that they favor the established businesses, regulations have favored upstart Uber over traditional taxi companies. Uber (applies to Lyft, too) was able to escape the onerous regulations by and large by claiming to have a different business. Taxis are struggling. I thought this was obvious, so didn't elaborate.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:06 PM on April 6, 2017
New Statesman: Tea, biscuits, and exceptionalism: The curious performative Britishness of Gibraltar
posted by Chrysostom at 8:11 PM on April 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 8:11 PM on April 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
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Of course the poor suffered horribly.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 7:58 AM on March 20, 2017 [9 favorites]