After Article 50
April 1, 2017 1:33 PM Subscribe
Just four days after the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome, Article 50 was officially triggered by Theresa May on Wednesday. Below are a few highlights and lowlights from the first four days after the official Brexit. (Apologies for the Guardian-heavy linking!)
Reports of immigration stings continue to rise, as seen with this gentleman on Thursday. Hate crimes are also on the rise, as with the brutal assault of an asylum seeker today in London. A far-right anti-Islam march floundered with under 300 attendees today, compared to the pro-EU (and generally peaceful, pro-immigration/pro-immigrant) march of nearly 100,000 last weekend. Record numbers of EU staff are leaving the UK, UK retail business are hoping to counterbalance EU staff attrition with UK teens in weekend jobs, banks are looking to move to the continent, and airlines face disruption in UK-based business holdings as well as landing rights in the EU. And there are of course further rocky battles to be had.
Oh, and whilst the Daily Mail weighed in with their usual insightful commentary, WaPo managed to be thoughtful about gender dynamics in politics in the UK and US.
Reports of immigration stings continue to rise, as seen with this gentleman on Thursday. Hate crimes are also on the rise, as with the brutal assault of an asylum seeker today in London. A far-right anti-Islam march floundered with under 300 attendees today, compared to the pro-EU (and generally peaceful, pro-immigration/pro-immigrant) march of nearly 100,000 last weekend. Record numbers of EU staff are leaving the UK, UK retail business are hoping to counterbalance EU staff attrition with UK teens in weekend jobs, banks are looking to move to the continent, and airlines face disruption in UK-based business holdings as well as landing rights in the EU. And there are of course further rocky battles to be had.
Oh, and whilst the Daily Mail weighed in with their usual insightful commentary, WaPo managed to be thoughtful about gender dynamics in politics in the UK and US.
Indian Civil Servant Called in to Partition Britain - “We take this decision with great reluctance,” said Prime Minister Modi, “but after yet another day of disturbances, it has become clear to us that the Leave and Remain camps will never be able to come to an accommodation and live peaceably side by side. We have therefore concluded that partition is the only way to prevent further strife.” [fake, and similar to a tweet from Referendum day, which did it better]
posted by ambrosen at 2:27 PM on April 1, 2017 [24 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 2:27 PM on April 1, 2017 [24 favorites]
"Brexit means Brexit, and we're going to make a TITANIC success of it."
posted by effbot at 2:45 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by effbot at 2:45 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm still surprised the government can't find a way to put the brakes on this whole thing. Last I looked, neither May nor the majority of Parliament want to go through with this, and the outlook only gets worse and worse.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:45 PM on April 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:45 PM on April 1, 2017 [5 favorites]
The Gibraltar issue is something I find interesting. I'm not keen on the continued existence of dependent territories as they are hangovers from empire, and hope that they are gently pushed to the door. However, I do believe that should have the right to decide their own future, which means that even if Gibraltar is no longer British it doesn't have to be Spanish if Gibraltarians reject it.
The thing which amazes me is the Spanish attitude toward this. They've acted for many decades as though they only need to demonstrate and increase pressure on the territory and somehow it will magically become theirs. Yet the people who live there continually reject the idea of being part of Spain. So while Spain uses the language of decolonization their actions work entirely the other way: they want to control a people and a territory who reject them. They might as well as insist on sovereignty over Cuba.
I just don't get it, because Spain asserts its right under the Treaty of Utrecht, but the same treaty gives the UK sovereignty and prevents Gibraltarian self-determination (stick that in your anticolonialist pipe and smoke it!). However, the treaty is the only reasonable path they have of ever getting Gibraltar back, and pushing the issue of Gibraltar to the point of causing a constitutional crisis will only end all hope they have: Gibraltar will either become an independent country or part of the United Kingdom.
posted by Emma May Smith at 3:01 PM on April 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
The thing which amazes me is the Spanish attitude toward this. They've acted for many decades as though they only need to demonstrate and increase pressure on the territory and somehow it will magically become theirs. Yet the people who live there continually reject the idea of being part of Spain. So while Spain uses the language of decolonization their actions work entirely the other way: they want to control a people and a territory who reject them. They might as well as insist on sovereignty over Cuba.
I just don't get it, because Spain asserts its right under the Treaty of Utrecht, but the same treaty gives the UK sovereignty and prevents Gibraltarian self-determination (stick that in your anticolonialist pipe and smoke it!). However, the treaty is the only reasonable path they have of ever getting Gibraltar back, and pushing the issue of Gibraltar to the point of causing a constitutional crisis will only end all hope they have: Gibraltar will either become an independent country or part of the United Kingdom.
posted by Emma May Smith at 3:01 PM on April 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
What the EU27 want from Brexit is a Politico article which has quite a useful summary of the priorities of the 27 countries in the negotiations. There's an interesting range, but Spain sticks out like a sore thumb with both its position on Gibraltar, and a hard line on Scotland, trying to prevent any precedent being set for Catalonia.
I've been thinking, since the Scottish independence referendum, that the Spanish huffing and puffing about Scotland is extremely unfair, since the Scots have been part of the EEC/EC/EU longer than the Spanish have, and Croatia, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia all went through a state break-up in the recent past before joining. Not to mention the fact that the former East Germany got fast-tracked in by being absorbed by an existing member state.
posted by Azara at 3:29 PM on April 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
I've been thinking, since the Scottish independence referendum, that the Spanish huffing and puffing about Scotland is extremely unfair, since the Scots have been part of the EEC/EC/EU longer than the Spanish have, and Croatia, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia all went through a state break-up in the recent past before joining. Not to mention the fact that the former East Germany got fast-tracked in by being absorbed by an existing member state.
posted by Azara at 3:29 PM on April 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
I learned from the FPP that the German phrase for "no cherry-picking" is "keine Rosinenpickerei," which translates to "no picking raisins [out of cake]," which strikes me as a much richer metaphor than cherries, in that picking raisins out of a cake renders the rest of the cake rather less appealing. Much like the remaining EU regulations after the UK is done choosing the best parts as part of Brexit.
posted by Atrahasis at 5:04 PM on April 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by Atrahasis at 5:04 PM on April 1, 2017 [14 favorites]
Did you mean "more appealing"? Vis a vis raisins/cake. (I don't have the cites handy, but all studies ever ever have shown that picking raisins out of anything they were misguidedly embedded inside of is proven to improve the original 1000%.)
posted by maxwelton at 5:39 PM on April 1, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 5:39 PM on April 1, 2017 [22 favorites]
Hindsight is 20/20 and all that but I feel like if remain went with "Easyjet won't be able to keep giving you cheap flights to Majorca" they probably would have won in a landslide.
posted by Talez at 5:53 PM on April 1, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by Talez at 5:53 PM on April 1, 2017 [23 favorites]
Did you mean "more appealing"? Vis a vis raisins/cake. (I don't have the cites handy, but all studies ever ever have shown that picking raisins out of anything they were misguidedly embedded inside of is proven to improve the original 1000%.)
There is a certain kind of pseudo-curry which I used to encounter frequently at potlucks many years ago, made with raisins. Raisins in cake aren't great, but they at least aren't a soggy and under-spiced disappointment.
I'm still surprised the government can't find a way to put the brakes on this whole thing.
That's what is surprising to me as well. At least from the outside, it looks like something that won a narrow vote but isn't necessarily genuinely desired nor in the best interests of the country. I kept expecting some institution of government to find a maneuver to put a stop to it, but that seems to not be the case at all.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:54 PM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is a certain kind of pseudo-curry which I used to encounter frequently at potlucks many years ago, made with raisins. Raisins in cake aren't great, but they at least aren't a soggy and under-spiced disappointment.
I'm still surprised the government can't find a way to put the brakes on this whole thing.
That's what is surprising to me as well. At least from the outside, it looks like something that won a narrow vote but isn't necessarily genuinely desired nor in the best interests of the country. I kept expecting some institution of government to find a maneuver to put a stop to it, but that seems to not be the case at all.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:54 PM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's what is surprising to me as well. At least from the outside, it looks like something that won a narrow vote but isn't necessarily genuinely desired nor in the best interests of the country. I kept expecting some institution of government to find a maneuver to put a stop to it, but that seems to not be the case at all.
They keep crowing about democracy in an advisory referendum. Like if half the population wants to drive the country off a cliff they need to respect the will of them. So long as they don't turn to UKIP like they would have if the Tories had stopped brexit. You know, because it's just the last middle finger that baby boomers will give to millennials before they die in public hospitals to be privatized right after they're six feet under.
posted by Talez at 6:00 PM on April 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
They keep crowing about democracy in an advisory referendum. Like if half the population wants to drive the country off a cliff they need to respect the will of them. So long as they don't turn to UKIP like they would have if the Tories had stopped brexit. You know, because it's just the last middle finger that baby boomers will give to millennials before they die in public hospitals to be privatized right after they're six feet under.
posted by Talez at 6:00 PM on April 1, 2017 [4 favorites]
Hindsight is 20/20 and all that but I feel like if remain went with "Easyjet won't be able to keep giving you cheap flights to Majorca" they probably would have won in a landslide.
If you could have got anyone to listen. Pointing out any of the real downsides to leaving the EU was just labelled "Project Fear". As if there was nothing to be frightened of.
I'm still struggling to understand what, apart from "Sovereignty" (which has never put food on anyone's table, nor protected anyone from tyranny, as far as I can tell) and "less people from ethnic minorities" (which won't happen anyway, in light of demographic trends that Brexit will do nothing to alter) people actually think they're going to get out of this. How will Brexit make our society freer, fairer, safer, more prosperous or happier? As far as I can see, we're no closer to having a plan for making any use of Brexit than we were on the 24th of June. We're just...doing it and hoping that something turns up.
posted by howfar at 6:19 PM on April 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
If you could have got anyone to listen. Pointing out any of the real downsides to leaving the EU was just labelled "Project Fear". As if there was nothing to be frightened of.
I'm still struggling to understand what, apart from "Sovereignty" (which has never put food on anyone's table, nor protected anyone from tyranny, as far as I can tell) and "less people from ethnic minorities" (which won't happen anyway, in light of demographic trends that Brexit will do nothing to alter) people actually think they're going to get out of this. How will Brexit make our society freer, fairer, safer, more prosperous or happier? As far as I can see, we're no closer to having a plan for making any use of Brexit than we were on the 24th of June. We're just...doing it and hoping that something turns up.
posted by howfar at 6:19 PM on April 1, 2017 [7 favorites]
I've been thinking, since the Scottish independence referendum, that the Spanish huffing and puffing about Scotland is extremely unfair, since the Scots have been part of the EEC/EC/EU longer than the Spanish have, and Croatia, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia all went through a state break-up in the recent past before joining. Not to mention the fact that the former East Germany got fast-tracked in by being absorbed by an existing member state.
This is not my area of expertise, but Scotland and Catalonia feel qualitatively different than the examples in central and eastern Europe, I think because they're all in some way related to the redrawing of European borders that really gets going in 1918. You could perhaps draw parallels between the end of Francoism and the end of communism in eastern Europe, but having kept hold of Catalonia for the ensuing decades, I think we're back in Scotland territory--they've both been controlled by the "majority" state for a couple of centuries, there's the element of cultural suppression*, etc. Spain has much greater economic risk associated with Catalonia leaving than the UK with Scotland leaving, which is, I think, a big part of why they're so freaked out about it. That said, in the event of independence, Scotland should be entitled to control of a lot of the North Sea oil fields. (Of course, Westminster would do their very best to screw them out of it.)
*I should acknowledge that that was also a thing in the Baltic states.
posted by hoyland at 6:24 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is not my area of expertise, but Scotland and Catalonia feel qualitatively different than the examples in central and eastern Europe, I think because they're all in some way related to the redrawing of European borders that really gets going in 1918. You could perhaps draw parallels between the end of Francoism and the end of communism in eastern Europe, but having kept hold of Catalonia for the ensuing decades, I think we're back in Scotland territory--they've both been controlled by the "majority" state for a couple of centuries, there's the element of cultural suppression*, etc. Spain has much greater economic risk associated with Catalonia leaving than the UK with Scotland leaving, which is, I think, a big part of why they're so freaked out about it. That said, in the event of independence, Scotland should be entitled to control of a lot of the North Sea oil fields. (Of course, Westminster would do their very best to screw them out of it.)
*I should acknowledge that that was also a thing in the Baltic states.
posted by hoyland at 6:24 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
howfar: "I'm still struggling to understand what, apart from "Sovereignty" (which has never put food on anyone's table, nor protected anyone from tyranny, as far as I can tell) and "less people from ethnic minorities" (which won't happen anyway, in light of demographic trends that Brexit will do nothing to alter) people actually think they're going to get out of this. How will Brexit make our society freer, fairer, safer, more prosperous or happier? "
1) Just because 2 won't happen I wouldn't discount people voting for Brexit hoping/thinking it would happen. And that being the entirety of their decision making on the subject.
2) You are assuming that people voting Brexit were wanting a freer society. A lot of people don't as witnessed by just about all western democracies having swung towards authoritarianism.
3) Some people think that open borders are what killed well paying, low education, blue collar jobs. They therefor think restricting borders will bring those jobs back. They didn't and they won't of course but that is what they think. See also the current corrupt clown show that won't be named in an attempt not to derail.
Also I think that people oppose change just on principle and Brexit was seen as a way of reverting to a previous "saved" state before the EU. Even innocuous things like labelling law can get conservatives (in the descriptive sense) frothing. Something that doesn't only occur with government. See for example millions of words written in freak out about pluto no longer being a planet; a thing that actually effects the lives of practically no one.
posted by Mitheral at 6:43 PM on April 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
1) Just because 2 won't happen I wouldn't discount people voting for Brexit hoping/thinking it would happen. And that being the entirety of their decision making on the subject.
2) You are assuming that people voting Brexit were wanting a freer society. A lot of people don't as witnessed by just about all western democracies having swung towards authoritarianism.
3) Some people think that open borders are what killed well paying, low education, blue collar jobs. They therefor think restricting borders will bring those jobs back. They didn't and they won't of course but that is what they think. See also the current corrupt clown show that won't be named in an attempt not to derail.
Also I think that people oppose change just on principle and Brexit was seen as a way of reverting to a previous "saved" state before the EU. Even innocuous things like labelling law can get conservatives (in the descriptive sense) frothing. Something that doesn't only occur with government. See for example millions of words written in freak out about pluto no longer being a planet; a thing that actually effects the lives of practically no one.
posted by Mitheral at 6:43 PM on April 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
OMNIVORE: The Next Phase Of Brexit
Theresa May's Empty Brexit Promises
Irish Stand-Off
What Happens Now That Britain Has Triggered Article 50?
Brexecution Underway: UK Notifies EU of Intent to Depart
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:06 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Theresa May's Empty Brexit Promises
Irish Stand-Off
What Happens Now That Britain Has Triggered Article 50?
Brexecution Underway: UK Notifies EU of Intent to Depart
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:06 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
it looks like something that won a narrow vote but isn't necessarily genuinely desired nor in the best interests of the country.
Yeah, I am surprised that the referendum was not structured in such a way as that it required a supermajority, either 2/3 or something like the Montenegrin independence referendum in 2006 (55%, with a required minimum of 50% turnout).
I'm still struggling to understand what… people actually think they're going to get out of this
Quite a few people thought -- and a few still seem to think -- that it would "send a message" to the UK political establishment about [insert hobbyhorse of choice]. Of course, the wording of the referendum did not say anything about any other topic besides leaving the EU, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think that both the sloppily arranged, simple majority referendum as well as the wrong-headed protest votes were helped along by the assumption that "Remain" would win, albeit perhaps by a small margin.
posted by dhens at 9:59 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I am surprised that the referendum was not structured in such a way as that it required a supermajority, either 2/3 or something like the Montenegrin independence referendum in 2006 (55%, with a required minimum of 50% turnout).
I'm still struggling to understand what… people actually think they're going to get out of this
Quite a few people thought -- and a few still seem to think -- that it would "send a message" to the UK political establishment about [insert hobbyhorse of choice]. Of course, the wording of the referendum did not say anything about any other topic besides leaving the EU, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think that both the sloppily arranged, simple majority referendum as well as the wrong-headed protest votes were helped along by the assumption that "Remain" would win, albeit perhaps by a small margin.
posted by dhens at 9:59 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm still surprised the government can't find a way to put the brakes on this whole thing. Last I looked, neither May nor the majority of Parliament want to go through with this,
I really don't know where you're getting that impression from.
posted by Segundus at 10:30 PM on April 1, 2017
I really don't know where you're getting that impression from.
posted by Segundus at 10:30 PM on April 1, 2017
If Donny ditch-digger can't see that leaving the EU opens up Great Britain to damn near fatal economic vulnerabilities - I understand. I've dug ditches and life gets very simple from down there. What I can't wrap my brain around is how the governing party can tell itself 'everything will be fine.' Are they gazing longingly at Norway/Sweden, thinking that's the model they will be able to emulate? Do they not see that the way there is damn near impossible, given that... who was it, Junkers? et al have said they so no reason to make this easy for Great Britain and indeed there is no appreciable reason to?
The US has fallen into a hole of stupid over the last year plus, a lot of that due to SuperPacs dumping tons of money selectively to sway common sense/politics. I always thought the Parlimentary system was sturdier and less vulnerable to flaying around in search of the smart choice.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:06 PM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
The US has fallen into a hole of stupid over the last year plus, a lot of that due to SuperPacs dumping tons of money selectively to sway common sense/politics. I always thought the Parlimentary system was sturdier and less vulnerable to flaying around in search of the smart choice.
posted by From Bklyn at 11:06 PM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
it looks like something that won a narrow vote but isn't necessarily genuinely desired nor in the best interests of the country.
It is genuinely desired by many people, and the most important person who desires it is the editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Dacre. Unless the Mail changes its mind - incredibly unlikely - this government will certainly take us into the nastiest version of Brexit that they can manage, to satisfy Dacre.
I've never seen a government so in thrall to one section of the media before. They won't defend the judiciary from the Mail, or even criticise the Mail for gross sexism directed at the Prime Minister. They just seem to be taking orders directly from the Mail, and so they seem happy to have become the political face of the Mail's overarching story about Britain and the world: immigrants and the EU and human rights lawyers and benefit claimants are all interlinked and detestable foreign invaders that the noble trueborn English are finally going to Rise Up and kick out and so Brexit will be like Agincourt and Dunkirk and the Charge of the Light Brigade all rolled into one. ( I think Brexit will be very like the Charge of the Light Brigade, and not at all like the others, but it doesn't matter what I think since I'm a metropolitan elite immigrant brown person and part of the enemy). That's a story that the Mail - the highest circulation paper in the country - has been developing and perfecting for decades and the mere facts about economic decline or peace in Europe or the value of European institutions don't matter much in the face of its rhetorical power.
I'm fairly certain that the Tories know that Brexit isn't in the best interests of the country, but they also know it's done wonders for their political fortunes and that's what they've chosen to prioritise. The Mail is presenting May as some kind of hybrid of Churchill and Thatcher - spearheading a dramatic patriotic movement with style and a handbag - and that's electoral magic. Hence May's cheerful willingness to insult all EU institutions and approach the negotiations in a spirit of aggressive do-as-we-say-or-else. It's madness for Britain's longterm interests but it plays very well, rhetorically, to a particular audience and that's what this government prioritises.
posted by Aravis76 at 11:50 PM on April 1, 2017 [31 favorites]
It is genuinely desired by many people, and the most important person who desires it is the editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Dacre. Unless the Mail changes its mind - incredibly unlikely - this government will certainly take us into the nastiest version of Brexit that they can manage, to satisfy Dacre.
I've never seen a government so in thrall to one section of the media before. They won't defend the judiciary from the Mail, or even criticise the Mail for gross sexism directed at the Prime Minister. They just seem to be taking orders directly from the Mail, and so they seem happy to have become the political face of the Mail's overarching story about Britain and the world: immigrants and the EU and human rights lawyers and benefit claimants are all interlinked and detestable foreign invaders that the noble trueborn English are finally going to Rise Up and kick out and so Brexit will be like Agincourt and Dunkirk and the Charge of the Light Brigade all rolled into one. ( I think Brexit will be very like the Charge of the Light Brigade, and not at all like the others, but it doesn't matter what I think since I'm a metropolitan elite immigrant brown person and part of the enemy). That's a story that the Mail - the highest circulation paper in the country - has been developing and perfecting for decades and the mere facts about economic decline or peace in Europe or the value of European institutions don't matter much in the face of its rhetorical power.
I'm fairly certain that the Tories know that Brexit isn't in the best interests of the country, but they also know it's done wonders for their political fortunes and that's what they've chosen to prioritise. The Mail is presenting May as some kind of hybrid of Churchill and Thatcher - spearheading a dramatic patriotic movement with style and a handbag - and that's electoral magic. Hence May's cheerful willingness to insult all EU institutions and approach the negotiations in a spirit of aggressive do-as-we-say-or-else. It's madness for Britain's longterm interests but it plays very well, rhetorically, to a particular audience and that's what this government prioritises.
posted by Aravis76 at 11:50 PM on April 1, 2017 [31 favorites]
Don't worry, the Partido Popular will grumble until the end to save face but they have neither a spine nor a majority in the Spanish Congress. As they are, without a majority, they can barely govern Spain, much less dictate European policy.
posted by sukeban at 12:09 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sukeban at 12:09 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
It is genuinely desired by many people, and the most important person who desires it is the editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Dacre. Unless the Mail changes its mind - incredibly unlikely - this government will certainly take us into the nastiest version of Brexit that they can manage, to satisfy Dacre
Yup, there it is. You've also got May's problem of being in a very weak spot in Parliament, her majority is wafer thin so she's dependant on the lunatic Tory backbencher vote. That, allied with an opposition who are combining uselessness with an obsession on increasingly ludicrous internal backstabbing, has led to the House of Lords being the only check on whatever spews out of the Mail's fevered wish list for a return to a 'sovereign' England.
There was a significant portion of people who voted for 'chaos' as well. I do hope they're enjoying the results.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:23 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yup, there it is. You've also got May's problem of being in a very weak spot in Parliament, her majority is wafer thin so she's dependant on the lunatic Tory backbencher vote. That, allied with an opposition who are combining uselessness with an obsession on increasingly ludicrous internal backstabbing, has led to the House of Lords being the only check on whatever spews out of the Mail's fevered wish list for a return to a 'sovereign' England.
There was a significant portion of people who voted for 'chaos' as well. I do hope they're enjoying the results.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:23 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Talez: Sadly not, because one of the strongest indicators that someone voted leave is that they hadn't been outside the UK in the previous five years. I suspect that, for them, making it harder for young people to have a cheap week of partying overseas is a bonus.
posted by YoungStencil at 2:36 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by YoungStencil at 2:36 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
What it feels like they actually did it for, and the clamour against remoaning has contributed hugely to this feeling, is for the Remainers to shut up. That seems to have been an outcome that was confidently expected among Leavers, and nobody even painted it on a bus.
“Come on, you lost – you have to shut up now! For years you’ve been going on and on and on about multiculturalism and fair trade and equal marriage, and how foreigners are lovely and we’re nasty, and chickens get treated terribly, and recycling and rape and pitta bread and how nothing is quite as it seems, and now you’ve got to stop or it’s not fair. Everyone voted to say they were sick of it and that’s that!”
posted by dng at 2:57 AM on April 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
“Come on, you lost – you have to shut up now! For years you’ve been going on and on and on about multiculturalism and fair trade and equal marriage, and how foreigners are lovely and we’re nasty, and chickens get treated terribly, and recycling and rape and pitta bread and how nothing is quite as it seems, and now you’ve got to stop or it’s not fair. Everyone voted to say they were sick of it and that’s that!”
posted by dng at 2:57 AM on April 2, 2017 [15 favorites]
Spain's official position on an Indy Scotland has been clarified today in the Guardian:
Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland joining the EU...asked directly whether Spain would veto an independent Scotland joining the EU, Dastis said: “No, we wouldn’t.”
posted by Jakey at 3:11 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Alfonso Dastis, the Spanish foreign minister, made it clear that the government would not block an independent Scotland joining the EU...asked directly whether Spain would veto an independent Scotland joining the EU, Dastis said: “No, we wouldn’t.”
posted by Jakey at 3:11 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
In other Spanish news, Theresa May 'would go to war' to defend the sovereignty of Gibraltar.
Starting wars against Spanish-speaking countries is of course an old English tradition.
posted by effbot at 3:39 AM on April 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
Starting wars against Spanish-speaking countries is of course an old English tradition.
posted by effbot at 3:39 AM on April 2, 2017 [6 favorites]
From dnj's link: "Brick up the Channel tunnel". Reminds me of this moment in a Steptoe & Son show in 1962 discussing the Common Market and what the possibility of a Channel tunnel might mean.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:42 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:42 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think of him as 'ding!', only with a duller sound. Like 'dung', only you know, not dung.
posted by Segundus at 5:10 AM on April 2, 2017
posted by Segundus at 5:10 AM on April 2, 2017
Spain's official position on an Indy Scotland has been clarified today in the Guardian:.
As WingsOverScotland points out, Spain has been saying this since 2013 - but various politicians have chosen to ignore or fail to research the issue. Likewise Spain have also been saying, for some time, that they do see Gibraltar as a veto issue.
And this is all about ignorance (wilful or otherwise) about the position of just one of the EU countries. That's why the Politico Article linked by Azara above is an interesting source.
posted by rongorongo at 5:10 AM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
As WingsOverScotland points out, Spain has been saying this since 2013 - but various politicians have chosen to ignore or fail to research the issue. Likewise Spain have also been saying, for some time, that they do see Gibraltar as a veto issue.
And this is all about ignorance (wilful or otherwise) about the position of just one of the EU countries. That's why the Politico Article linked by Azara above is an interesting source.
posted by rongorongo at 5:10 AM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm still struggling to understand what, apart from "Sovereignty" (which has never put food on anyone's table, nor protected anyone from tyranny, as far as I can tell) and "less people from ethnic minorities" (which won't happen anyway, in light of demographic trends that Brexit will do nothing to alter) people actually think they're going to get out of this.
Blue passports?
posted by Talez at 6:31 AM on April 2, 2017
Blue passports?
posted by Talez at 6:31 AM on April 2, 2017
And you'll be able to sell things in imperial measures again!
*not that you were ever actually stopped
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:46 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
*not that you were ever actually stopped
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:46 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Pounds are going back to Lsd!
posted by Talez at 6:59 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Talez at 6:59 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Linked in the "Trigger Warning" thread but worth reposting
Brexit; Are you angry yet? You bloody should be.
Every con job has it's arch villain.
posted by adamvasco at 7:29 AM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Brexit; Are you angry yet? You bloody should be.
Every con job has it's arch villain.
posted by adamvasco at 7:29 AM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Blue passports?
Supposedly better than the "humiliating pink passports" you're forced to use now.
(Not sure if the "chairman of the Flags and Heraldry Committee" has really bad colour vision or that nobody has told him that you don't have to get a temporary passport every time you leave the country, or if there's some other issue, but I guess I'm glad that there's room for people like him in politics, because I'm not sure how he'd find meaningful employment elsewhere...)
posted by effbot at 7:55 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Supposedly better than the "humiliating pink passports" you're forced to use now.
(Not sure if the "chairman of the Flags and Heraldry Committee" has really bad colour vision or that nobody has told him that you don't have to get a temporary passport every time you leave the country, or if there's some other issue, but I guess I'm glad that there's room for people like him in politics, because I'm not sure how he'd find meaningful employment elsewhere...)
posted by effbot at 7:55 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
a temporary passport
Oh, nevermind, seems the colours for temporary passports aren't standardized, and the British ones are yellow, not pink as in some other more fabulous EU countries.
posted by effbot at 8:05 AM on April 2, 2017
Oh, nevermind, seems the colours for temporary passports aren't standardized, and the British ones are yellow, not pink as in some other more fabulous EU countries.
posted by effbot at 8:05 AM on April 2, 2017
Goodness! It's just such a mess. It worries and scares me. I did write about my feelings of belonging and the worry I might never be able to live in the UK again, but I can't even imagine what some people are going through right now. Worriying every day about being deported from the only home they've known for years and decades. Uncertainty is the worst.
posted by I have no idea at 9:17 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by I have no idea at 9:17 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think you guys just crossed over into pure "what the hell is wrong with you?" territory:
Britain's Navy is far weaker than it was during the Falklands war but could still "cripple" Spain, military experts have said. Rear-Adml Chris Parry, a former director of operational capability at the Ministry of Defence, has called on the Government to "appropriately" invest in Britain's military capacity if it wants to "talk big" over Gibraltar.
posted by effbot at 9:24 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Britain's Navy is far weaker than it was during the Falklands war but could still "cripple" Spain, military experts have said. Rear-Adml Chris Parry, a former director of operational capability at the Ministry of Defence, has called on the Government to "appropriately" invest in Britain's military capacity if it wants to "talk big" over Gibraltar.
posted by effbot at 9:24 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
→ Scots have been part of the EEC/EC/EU longer than the Spanish have
Last time I was in Spain it was a dictatorship. Franco was still in power. It was 1973, so the UK had been an EEC member for a few months. Yes, I'm old, thank you for noticing.
On the mindset behind EU negotiations, someone forwarded me the “Seven key British perspectives on the Brexit negotiations” thingy (which is on a possibly dodgy site, dunno), which reads a bit like the Monty Python “How To Do It” sketch set to Rule Britannia.
Another utter horror struck me: every bit of computer security legislation came after EU membership. So that means it all has to be reworked in the Great Repeal Debacle. All of it: database legislation, rights, retention, oh ffs. I do rather see the Great Repeal as a chance for the Tories to remake all of the laws in their image. It's a scary outlook.
posted by scruss at 9:31 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Last time I was in Spain it was a dictatorship. Franco was still in power. It was 1973, so the UK had been an EEC member for a few months. Yes, I'm old, thank you for noticing.
On the mindset behind EU negotiations, someone forwarded me the “Seven key British perspectives on the Brexit negotiations” thingy (which is on a possibly dodgy site, dunno), which reads a bit like the Monty Python “How To Do It” sketch set to Rule Britannia.
Another utter horror struck me: every bit of computer security legislation came after EU membership. So that means it all has to be reworked in the Great Repeal Debacle. All of it: database legislation, rights, retention, oh ffs. I do rather see the Great Repeal as a chance for the Tories to remake all of the laws in their image. It's a scary outlook.
posted by scruss at 9:31 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
The great repeal bill is absolutely an anti-democratic power grab by the conservatives, seemingly built on the unshakeable faith that they're currently in position to rule for eternity.
Although what they'll actually have left to rule by the end of all this is anyone's guess, really.
posted by dng at 10:28 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Although what they'll actually have left to rule by the end of all this is anyone's guess, really.
posted by dng at 10:28 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Britain's Navy is far weaker than it was during the Falklands war but could still "cripple" Spain, military experts have said.
Can't we, I don't know, send Arturo Pérez-Reverte to have an old-fashioned sword duel with these guys over Trafalgar or whatever?
posted by sukeban at 10:57 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Can't we, I don't know, send Arturo Pérez-Reverte to have an old-fashioned sword duel with these guys over Trafalgar or whatever?
posted by sukeban at 10:57 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
effbot, did you read to the end of that article? Because it doesn't get any less crazy:
However, he insisted that Britain's military capability "significantly" over-matches Spain's and that if it came to a war, the UK is - qualitatively - three times more powerful. Our capacity to do them harm is far greater.
How can a factor of three by a qualitative assessment, surely its quantitative?
"We could cripple Spain in the medium term and I think the Americans would probably support us too. Spain should learn from history that it is never worth taking us on and that we could still singe the King of Spain’s beard”.
Thanks Yanks, good to know you might have our backs on this if lunatic Rear Admirals are to be believed. At this stage in history does anyone think this can be ruled out?
I have a holiday in Galicia booked for June though, so if everyone could skip bombing there and then it would be appreciated.
posted by biffa at 11:56 AM on April 2, 2017
However, he insisted that Britain's military capability "significantly" over-matches Spain's and that if it came to a war, the UK is - qualitatively - three times more powerful. Our capacity to do them harm is far greater.
How can a factor of three by a qualitative assessment, surely its quantitative?
"We could cripple Spain in the medium term and I think the Americans would probably support us too. Spain should learn from history that it is never worth taking us on and that we could still singe the King of Spain’s beard”.
Thanks Yanks, good to know you might have our backs on this if lunatic Rear Admirals are to be believed. At this stage in history does anyone think this can be ruled out?
I have a holiday in Galicia booked for June though, so if everyone could skip bombing there and then it would be appreciated.
posted by biffa at 11:56 AM on April 2, 2017
Well there's not going to be war unless Rajoy sends tanks down the Línea and that is not going to happen by a million different reasons, first being it would be totally bonkers and nobody would be so daft. I mean, seriously, this is absurd.
We're making a lot of jokes about Brits not wanting lettuce anyway and cunning plans to end an English invasion with enough sangria and balconies, tho.
posted by sukeban at 12:19 PM on April 2, 2017
We're making a lot of jokes about Brits not wanting lettuce anyway and cunning plans to end an English invasion with enough sangria and balconies, tho.
posted by sukeban at 12:19 PM on April 2, 2017
I mean, seriously, this is absurd.
To be fair, that was also the common knowledge belief about Brexit itself.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:50 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
To be fair, that was also the common knowledge belief about Brexit itself.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:50 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hey, and don't forget how Brexit and Article 50 might impact the Falkland Islands:
http://www.gulf-times.com/story/542298/Argentina%20eyes%20Falklands%20sovereignty#.WOAa0ceEwTM.twitter
posted by rolandroland at 3:10 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
http://www.gulf-times.com/story/542298/Argentina%20eyes%20Falklands%20sovereignty#.WOAa0ceEwTM.twitter
posted by rolandroland at 3:10 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just saw this Channel 4 News clip (via Twitter) of Lord Howard getting all excited about the parallel to the date of the Falklands war and his chance to troll people about the possibility of a new war. He's grinning the whole time. This dude is sickening.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:22 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:22 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
You could even suppose there is something of the night about him.
posted by adamvasco at 4:18 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 4:18 PM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Government "spending £500m to bring back Brexit Blue Passports" is (mostly) FAKE NEWS:
The Government isn’t “spending £500m” on a passport “redesign”. In fact it is spending essentially zero.posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:44 AM on April 3, 2017
HM Passport Office (part of the Home Office) is almost entirely funded by “user fees”. What this means is the cost of passports is borne by citizens directly: i.e. when you get a new passport or renew one. This means... The £500m can’t be spent on anything else...
The Government isn’t redesigning the passport because of Brexit.
The timing with Brexit is coincidental. The UK redesigns its passport every 5 years, mostly for security reasons (e.g. to introduce biometric features). New versions were introduced in 2010 and 2015. Private firm De La Rue (who also make UK banknotes), won a ten year contract/tender for designing and producing passports in 2009. That contract is up for renewal in 2019...
The £500m (actually: £490m) isn’t just for the “redesign” of British passports, it also covers printing 60 million of them over 10 years... That’s about £40m a year, or £7-£8 per passport... this tender is being competitively bid, on the open market, under EU procurement rules.
The use of a ‘Blue’ colour isn’t decided, and is mostly irrelevant anyway.
If we’re to understand the Brexit talks, the media must do better than this:
“The EU’s draft Brexit guidelines look anything but punitive,” wrote Vincenzo Scarpetta, senior policy analyst with the think-tank Open Europe.posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:31 AM on April 3, 2017
“… The door is wide open for parallel negotiations, albeit not from the very beginning. … The draft guidelines make it clear that parallel negotiations will be fully possible during the two-year timeframe stipulated by Article 50 — provided that ‘sufficient progress’ on the terms of the withdrawal is achieved.”
The notion that the EU was uncompromising was as absurd as the claim that Brussels had buckled...
Which brings us back to the original problem. Many of the headlines show a failure to understand negotiations. The gut reaction is always to pinpoint where the two sides disagree. Often that is valid. But it also means missing the crucial openings when they are made.
I really don't think people realise just how incredibly dangerous Brexit and Article 50 is.
The UK has voluntarily decided to pull itself out of its biggest market (thereby making itself poorer), will have to spend huge quantities of money in doing so (making itself even poorer), and is being led by arrogant, uncaring, deluded and embarrassing individuals - which in turn will prevent investors, and bright smart people coming to the UK - who'd want to work with people who believe that "being positive" will make up for leaving a market of 300M people?
The UK already has a pretty hefty debt, and none of this will help - will only make it worse.
There is, when the realities of all this start to come home, of essentially a run on the UK. Get your money, investment, people, business out.
The only way something like this won't happen is if the EU itself has a significant existential crisis - which of course isn't out of the question.
posted by rolandroland at 1:34 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
The UK has voluntarily decided to pull itself out of its biggest market (thereby making itself poorer), will have to spend huge quantities of money in doing so (making itself even poorer), and is being led by arrogant, uncaring, deluded and embarrassing individuals - which in turn will prevent investors, and bright smart people coming to the UK - who'd want to work with people who believe that "being positive" will make up for leaving a market of 300M people?
The UK already has a pretty hefty debt, and none of this will help - will only make it worse.
There is, when the realities of all this start to come home, of essentially a run on the UK. Get your money, investment, people, business out.
The only way something like this won't happen is if the EU itself has a significant existential crisis - which of course isn't out of the question.
posted by rolandroland at 1:34 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
AA Gill wrote:
"It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law.posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:17 AM on April 3, 2017 [17 favorites]
The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.”
This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality.
There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again.
Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you?
This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in."
You could even suppose there is something of the night about him.
Much as I dislike Michael Howard and his politics, I have remarked before on here that whoever (David Baddiel?) said that what Widdecombe really meant was that he "has something of the Jew about him" was pretty much spot on. I hate that quote, feel it is anti-Semitic in its sentiment, and wish people wouldn't use it. I'm not imputing anti-Semitism to you, but I think it's a shame that something that I see as so unpleasant is used by people who do not subscribe to the nasty views that underlie it.
posted by howfar at 6:12 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Much as I dislike Michael Howard and his politics, I have remarked before on here that whoever (David Baddiel?) said that what Widdecombe really meant was that he "has something of the Jew about him" was pretty much spot on. I hate that quote, feel it is anti-Semitic in its sentiment, and wish people wouldn't use it. I'm not imputing anti-Semitism to you, but I think it's a shame that something that I see as so unpleasant is used by people who do not subscribe to the nasty views that underlie it.
posted by howfar at 6:12 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us.
This individual is literally a white nationalist desiring pan-White political unity, no sarcasm.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:30 AM on April 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
This individual is literally a white nationalist desiring pan-White political unity, no sarcasm.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 6:30 AM on April 3, 2017 [11 favorites]
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
I believe the canonical terminology is, "long shadows on cricket grounds, warm beer, invincible green suburbs, dog lovers and pools fillers."
posted by Chrysostom at 7:18 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
I believe the canonical terminology is, "long shadows on cricket grounds, warm beer, invincible green suburbs, dog lovers and pools fillers."
posted by Chrysostom at 7:18 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
what Widdecombe really meant was that he "has something of the Jew about him"
If I was getting any dog whistle from the 'something of the night' phrase it was more anti-Transylvanian.
posted by Segundus at 7:26 AM on April 3, 2017
If I was getting any dog whistle from the 'something of the night' phrase it was more anti-Transylvanian.
posted by Segundus at 7:26 AM on April 3, 2017
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
I mean, I've eaten here, but this ode to eurocentrism only has sense when you are a total ignorant of the rest of the world and rely on meaningless word games to define such a stupid thing as what counts as a restaurant (and it has to be French cooking). The oldest extant Peking Duck restaurant dates from beforeColumbus sailed to America Constantinople was taken by the Ottomans.
posted by sukeban at 7:56 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
I mean, I've eaten here, but this ode to eurocentrism only has sense when you are a total ignorant of the rest of the world and rely on meaningless word games to define such a stupid thing as what counts as a restaurant (and it has to be French cooking). The oldest extant Peking Duck restaurant dates from before
posted by sukeban at 7:56 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Well, that's the thing about dog whistles, right? They're audible loud and clear to people sympathetic to the veiled sentiment but give plausible deniability to the user.
Not weighing in on whether the phrase actually is anti-semitic, since I'm not familiar enough with British anti-semitism the way I am with, say, American anti-blackness. But one might point out that "anti-Transylvanian" could just as easily mean "anti-Romani", and I do know that Romani and Travelers are frequent targets of racism in Europe generally and England specifically. And Dracula, after all, is the tale of a foreign Svengali who preys on helpless English virgins.
Personally, though, I make the jump from "something of the night" to "woman of the night" to either "prostitute" or "man who makes use of prostitutes". Which isn't really a good look in an insult, even if it's not racist.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:00 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Not weighing in on whether the phrase actually is anti-semitic, since I'm not familiar enough with British anti-semitism the way I am with, say, American anti-blackness. But one might point out that "anti-Transylvanian" could just as easily mean "anti-Romani", and I do know that Romani and Travelers are frequent targets of racism in Europe generally and England specifically. And Dracula, after all, is the tale of a foreign Svengali who preys on helpless English virgins.
Personally, though, I make the jump from "something of the night" to "woman of the night" to either "prostitute" or "man who makes use of prostitutes". Which isn't really a good look in an insult, even if it's not racist.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:00 AM on April 3, 2017 [2 favorites]
Night time being where all manner of unsavoury things happen, so to speak, it sounds like more of a general insult. I wouldn't put it past Ann Widdicombe though.
posted by trif at 8:55 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by trif at 8:55 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
In response to this: ..... At least two thirds of voters would oppose paying EU 'exit bill' of £10bn or more, poll suggests - Politics live .... the EU should just quite simply say:
"ah fuck off then you morons. We'll forgo the contractual debt you owe us, but YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. COMPLETELY. GOOD BYE. YOU ARE NEVER WELCOME BACK YOU TOOLS".
And you can imagine them just sighing a huge sigh of relief when the door is shut to the shouting Farage, BoJo, Gove, etc ...
posted by rolandroland at 9:12 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Typical bigot conservatives, they want their whites only signs but they don't want to pay the price attached to having such signs.
Tough shit Brexit voters. You voted to spend that ten billion pounds when you voted to leave the EU. Actions have consequences, this is just the first of many consequences attached to your stupid, bigoted, evil, vote.
The only bad thing is that you won't pay the price yourself, you'll pass it on to the poorest in your country.
posted by sotonohito at 9:35 AM on April 3, 2017
Tough shit Brexit voters. You voted to spend that ten billion pounds when you voted to leave the EU. Actions have consequences, this is just the first of many consequences attached to your stupid, bigoted, evil, vote.
The only bad thing is that you won't pay the price yourself, you'll pass it on to the poorest in your country.
posted by sotonohito at 9:35 AM on April 3, 2017
> Tough shit Brexit voters. You voted to spend that ten billion pounds when you voted to leave the EU. Actions have consequences, this is just the first of many consequences attached to your stupid, bigoted, evil, vote.
From one POTUS45 thread junkie to another, that's what the rest of the world sees when they look at Donald Trump in the White House, too. I can't quite believe that they're going to take a barely-majority vote and use it to push through a break-up with the EU, but then again, look at Donnie taking apart the State Department, the Federal government, the EPA, and the global reputation of the USA.
I don't know, it's almost like there are deeper geopolitical currents at work.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
From one POTUS45 thread junkie to another, that's what the rest of the world sees when they look at Donald Trump in the White House, too. I can't quite believe that they're going to take a barely-majority vote and use it to push through a break-up with the EU, but then again, look at Donnie taking apart the State Department, the Federal government, the EPA, and the global reputation of the USA.
I don't know, it's almost like there are deeper geopolitical currents at work.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:06 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
“I can see no harm in reminding them what kind of people we are.” Michael Howard
Arseholes, presumably.
posted by howfar at 10:39 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Arseholes, presumably.
posted by howfar at 10:39 AM on April 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Here's another can of worms someone has suggested opening:
Let's do a Brexit deal with the Parthenon marbles
I was wondering if this was just a bit of pot-stirring, but I see that the author Geoffrey Robinson is an internationally known human rights lawyer.
That Politico article said about Greece:
"Greece is keeping its Brexit cards close to its chest. The Greek government has yet to making any public statements or announce an official line on Brexit."
That's beginning to sound a bit ominous to me.
posted by Azara at 3:55 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Let's do a Brexit deal with the Parthenon marbles
I was wondering if this was just a bit of pot-stirring, but I see that the author Geoffrey Robinson is an internationally known human rights lawyer.
That Politico article said about Greece:
"Greece is keeping its Brexit cards close to its chest. The Greek government has yet to making any public statements or announce an official line on Brexit."
That's beginning to sound a bit ominous to me.
posted by Azara at 3:55 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just noticed I misspelt the name of the author of that article - it's Geoffrey Robertson, not Robinson (the link is to the correct bio).
posted by Azara at 4:09 AM on April 4, 2017
posted by Azara at 4:09 AM on April 4, 2017
For reference, an interesting comparison between the negotiating positions of the UK and the EU:
How the Article 50 letter compares with the European Council draft guidelines, from the Institute for Government in the UK.
I find their interpretation of hte Northern Ireland border question reassuring:
"Both the UK and EU are prioritising the UK’s relationship with Ireland, and are committed to avoiding a hard border in Ireland. The EU also signals flexibility from existing practices to achieve this."
posted by Azara at 4:13 AM on April 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
How the Article 50 letter compares with the European Council draft guidelines, from the Institute for Government in the UK.
I find their interpretation of hte Northern Ireland border question reassuring:
"Both the UK and EU are prioritising the UK’s relationship with Ireland, and are committed to avoiding a hard border in Ireland. The EU also signals flexibility from existing practices to achieve this."
posted by Azara at 4:13 AM on April 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
At least two thirds of voters would oppose paying EU 'exit bill' of £10bn or more, poll suggests
I think this will be noted with interest by all countries that the UK plans to negotiate those favorable trade deals with. Looks like a great bargaining chip to me: "Why should we trust you to honor your contractual obligations to us if you don't honor your obligations to the EU?"
In other words, not paying what they owe will mark the UK as a country that doesn't honor its word, a country that cannot be trusted. - Not a good start for the negotiations to come.
posted by sour cream at 5:40 AM on April 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think this will be noted with interest by all countries that the UK plans to negotiate those favorable trade deals with. Looks like a great bargaining chip to me: "Why should we trust you to honor your contractual obligations to us if you don't honor your obligations to the EU?"
In other words, not paying what they owe will mark the UK as a country that doesn't honor its word, a country that cannot be trusted. - Not a good start for the negotiations to come.
posted by sour cream at 5:40 AM on April 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
not paying what they owe will mark the UK as a country that doesn't honor its word, a country that cannot be trusted.
tbf the fact of perfidious Albion is hardly news to anyone.
posted by howfar at 1:15 PM on April 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
tbf the fact of perfidious Albion is hardly news to anyone.
posted by howfar at 1:15 PM on April 5, 2017 [1 favorite]
Quote from a recent Guardian Comments section
The populist right, on the other hand, denounces “identity politics”, while indulging in exactly that: transforming class into a cultural and political identity, weaponised in their struggle against progressive Britain.
Agreed. They’ve taken the very worst impulses and characteristics of the British – the anti-intellectualism, the incuriosity about the world, the fearful, small minded, proudly ignorant, xenophobic, jingoistic attitude of the Mail and the Sun, of Clarkson and Littlejohn – and they’ve made them central to ‘Britishness’.
They’ve thrown out everything that made being British something to be proud of – the cosmopolitanism, the curiosity, the irony, the nuance, the liberalism, the rationality, the healthy scepticism towards the mindless flag-waving that belongs in the last century.
As a British European, the idiotic Brexit project doesn’t speak for me, and it doesn’t speak to me. It’s not meant to. The Little Englanders, the citizens of somewhere, used people like me to define themselves against. Their identity emerged in explicit opposition to mine. Like the 19th Century Californian Mexicans, I’ve become a foreigner overnight, not because I crossed any borders, but because the border crossed me.
The Little Englanders and I now inhabit two distinct, newly-minted blocs in the UK’s multicultural patchwork. We share a landmass and a language, and that’s it. Talk of uniting, in anything other than the transactional sense, is wishful fantasy. Their small-minded, fearful version of Britishness can never represent me. The opposite: it disgusts me.
posted by lalochezia at 7:35 AM on April 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
The populist right, on the other hand, denounces “identity politics”, while indulging in exactly that: transforming class into a cultural and political identity, weaponised in their struggle against progressive Britain.
Agreed. They’ve taken the very worst impulses and characteristics of the British – the anti-intellectualism, the incuriosity about the world, the fearful, small minded, proudly ignorant, xenophobic, jingoistic attitude of the Mail and the Sun, of Clarkson and Littlejohn – and they’ve made them central to ‘Britishness’.
They’ve thrown out everything that made being British something to be proud of – the cosmopolitanism, the curiosity, the irony, the nuance, the liberalism, the rationality, the healthy scepticism towards the mindless flag-waving that belongs in the last century.
As a British European, the idiotic Brexit project doesn’t speak for me, and it doesn’t speak to me. It’s not meant to. The Little Englanders, the citizens of somewhere, used people like me to define themselves against. Their identity emerged in explicit opposition to mine. Like the 19th Century Californian Mexicans, I’ve become a foreigner overnight, not because I crossed any borders, but because the border crossed me.
The Little Englanders and I now inhabit two distinct, newly-minted blocs in the UK’s multicultural patchwork. We share a landmass and a language, and that’s it. Talk of uniting, in anything other than the transactional sense, is wishful fantasy. Their small-minded, fearful version of Britishness can never represent me. The opposite: it disgusts me.
posted by lalochezia at 7:35 AM on April 13, 2017 [4 favorites]
"This was the week in which people started to get poorer because of Brexit."
posted by effbot at 8:28 AM on April 13, 2017
posted by effbot at 8:28 AM on April 13, 2017
Britain set to lose EU ‘crown jewels’ of banking and medicine agencies
posted by adamvasco at 5:53 PM on April 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 5:53 PM on April 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by verstegan at 2:27 PM on April 1, 2017 [5 favorites]